Commons Chamber

Wednesday 5th March 2025

(began 9 months, 1 week ago)

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None Portrait Q2. What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to implement the policies in the Make Work Pay plan in Scotland. (902924)
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Question number two Mr Speaker.
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None Portrait Q3. What steps his Department is taking to support economic growth in Scotland. (902925)
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Question three please Mr Speaker.
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None Portrait Prime Minister's Question Time
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We now come to Prime Minister's Questions.
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None Portrait Ministerial statement: Courts and Tribunals sitting days in the 2025-26 financial year
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Chancellor. Thank you Mr Speaker. With permission I will make a statement
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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permission I will make a statement on capacity in the Crown Court. When this government took office eight months ago, we received an inheritance from those opposite that was little short of disgraceful. Our prisons were in crisis, on the edge of collapse, and our ports faced a record and rising backlog. While the crisis in our prisons was more obvious and visible, the harm caused by the backlog in our court cannot be overestimated. Today the backlog stands at over 73,000 cases.

Just five years earlier it had been half of that figure. We should stop and consider that fact. Because the backlog is far more than a number. Behind each case is a victim. Many have waited years for justice. And some will now not have their cases heard until 2028. With delays this long, it is little wonder that more victims are dropping out. Tragically this is true of victims of the most heinous crimes. Just five years ago, around 3% of adult rape victims whose cases were due to go to trial dropped out before the case was heard.

Today, that figure has more than doubled. An old adage has sadly come true in this country. For far too many, justice delayed is justice denied. Unlike our predecessors, who allowed this backlog to rise and rise, this government will bear down on it. We will deliver swifter justice for the victims of crime. That starts today with a record investment in our criminal courts. Each financial year the government determines the total of days that can be sat across all our courts and tribunals.

Commonly referred to as sitting days. The process is called the Concordat, and last year I committed to concluding the process earlier than in previous years, to give our courts greater certainty. We have now done so several months ahead of last year's settlement. And so today I can announce that this government will provide a total budget of £2.5 billion for our courts and tribunals in the next financial year. This represents a record level of investment. It will fund up to 110,000 sitting days in our Crown Court.

This is 4000 more days than the previous government funded last year. If the Shadow Minister opposite would like to check the record books, he will find no higher allocation in recorded history. Investment in the family and civil courts brings those jurisdictions at, or close to, the maximum capacity. This investment in court capacity is matched by an investment in court maintenance. Our courts have been allowed to fall into a shocking state of disrepair in recent years. This government will boost funding to £148.5 million up from £128 million last year.

This will be the highest for get spent on maintenance and capital works in the last 10 years. This builds on a consistent theme of this new government, and a marked difference when compared to our predecessors. In our first eight months in office, we have consistently invested more in the courts than the last Conservative government. On entering office, I immediately funded 500 sitting days on top of the allocation provided by the previous Lord Chancellor. At the end of last year when resources allow, I added a further 2000.

In October, this government also increased magistrates courts sentencing powers. Previously they could only impose a six-month prison sentence, and we lifted this to 12 months. In doing so we free up capacity in the Crown Court to hear the most serious cases. This single change was equivalent to adding another 2000 sitting days in our Crown Court. All these changes are necessary for the swift delivery of justice. However, I must be honest in a way that my predecessors never were.

This investment is necessary but not sufficient to reduce the Crown Court backlog. Even with record levels of funding, if we do not take other bolder measures, the backlog will grow. With a growing number of cases entering our courts, and with cases of increasing complexity being heard in front of our judges, we cannot simply do more of the same. We must do things differently. In December, I appointed Sir Brian Leveson, one of our most distinguished judges, to conduct a wholesale review of our criminal courts.

The review will propose long-term reform. As well as reviewing the efficiency and timeliness of court processes from charge all the way to case completion. And crucially I've also asked him to address something that too many others have avoided, the question of structural form. Today, 10% of criminal code are heard in a Crown Court where a judge presides and a jury decides. Jury trials are a pillar of our justice system for the most serious offences, and that will never change.

However, we must ask ourselves whether there are cases that we are hearing today that could be handled equally well elsewhere. There are already some cases that can be had in either a crown or a magistrates court. We call these triable either way cases. Today they represent 40% of the courts backlog. But while a conviction, whether determined by a jury or a magistrate, is the same regardless of the type of courtroom, the demands that they place on our justice system is very different indeed.

And either way case resolved by a magistrate is five times faster than before a judge and jury. Justice must be done, the North must always face consequences of that I know this house would agree. But we must be willing to ask whether a judge and jury should be occupied at great length and expense on crimes that could be dealt with more swiftly elsewhere. For that reason, I've asked Sir Brian to consider the case for reclassifying some less serious offences, where magistrate sentencing powers are sufficient, in the case of a new court to sit between the magistrate and the Crown.

The recommendations will come later this spring. His goal and mine are one, to bear down on the backlog and deliver swifter justice for victims. The consequences of failing to do so are all too clear. The backlog in the criminal courts will rise. Cases will be listed even further into the future. More victims of crime will decide the weight is too painful with justice so distant, and as a result, dangerous criminals walk free. So today we have announced record investment in our courts, 110,000 sitting days funded, 4000 more than the previous administration.

For many victims, their case will be heard sooner. But if we are to deliver swifter justice for all, we must embrace reform too. This government will deliver once in a generation reform of our courts. We will reverse the decline and delays of the last Conservative government, and I commend this statement to the house.

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I was help by reopening surely

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court for you. Shadow Lord Chancellor. Mr Speaker it is great to see the

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Mr Speaker it is great to see the Justice Secretary back in the country after her holiday in Texas. If she can find time to travel to If she can find time to travel to America, why can't she find time to travel to the two category A prisons? I would be pleased to hear prisons? I would be pleased to hear that the case that was not the answer to a written apology question the other day. Today, the central criminal code has 13 courtrooms sat empty, in Preston, 40% of courtrooms sit empty.

In Winchester, it is two
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Robert Jenrick Portrait Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Conservative)
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sit empty. In Winchester, it is two As a result of the backlog, that has drawn under the Justice Secretary. We have got to maximise court capacity and take full advantage of capacity and take full advantage of all available days and we have to be all available days and we have to be probing the judiciary for options to create more capacity. I know that and I would like to believe the and I would like to believe the right honourable lady knows that.

How did we get here? Because, just like every other area of this Labour government, it came to office with no plan whatsoever and has waited its first eight months in office. Upon entering office, the Lady Chief Justice and from the Justice Secretary there are 6005 days available to address the backlog. -- 6005. The backlog kept growing. So frustrated what they really Chief Justice she came to Parliament in November and took the unusual step of publicly chastising the Justice Secretary.

The Justice Secretary responded one month later by adding 2000 sitting days and the backlog kept growing. Eight months on from the Justice Secretary taking office, on the very day the Public Accounts Committee published a report into her department to promise more sitting days. Is it third time lucky for the Justice Secretary? No. We have learned today that the Justice Secretary is still turning down available sitting days and astonishingly she has conceded that the court backlog will keep on rising.

This is simply not acceptable. Of course, I welcome the changes but it is not enough. She says victims will get quicker justice but tells that to victims of rape who are having court dates set for 2028.

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When the front benches showed, I cannot hear it. I will decide if it

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is enough or not. I do not contain that cutting the

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I do not contain that cutting the backlog is easy, nor will it be quick, but there must be a plan and a timetable for when the backlog will fall. This morning she was will fall. This morning she was repeatedly asked and did not answer. Can she tell the country now when Can she tell the country now when the backlog will begin to fall? Like what Dave does she forecast it and why will she not take up the 2500 additional dates which have been offered time and time again by the honourable lady Chief Justice.

Bring to the new sentencing guidelines which will make a custodial sentence less likely, "Ethnic minorities, cultural minorities, faith minority communities." Why is there a double standard and a two tier approach to sentencing? This is version of the rule of law and we on this side believe in equality under the rule of law. Why doesn't she?
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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The Shadow Secretary Of State asked the question - how did we get here? I will tell him. His administration at the 14 years that they had in power and the absolute matter they made of the criminal justice system - a mess that this moment is clearing up. I'm sorry to deprive him of what he thought was a clever attack line about my recent visit to Texas but I have visited Manchester prison and I did so during the February recess.



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Order. I did say that I need to hear. Please.

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hear. Please. They should welcome that I am seeking to learn from a calf law and order estate in America where they order estate in America where they have had the same problems we inherited from his administration inherited from his administration and they have embarked on a new initiative that has seen levels initiative that has seen levels approaching a level that we can be envious of. If his government had done more when they were in power, we would not have such a big mess to clean up in the criminal justice system.

He refers to courtrooms sitting empty. One of the reasons is because his government, in one of their last acts on leaving office, was to only fund 106 sitting days and I flitted that amount and today the highest ever amount will be funded by this Labour government, so more of those courtrooms will of course be put to use and people also know that in order to run the system efficiently, there will always be some courtrooms not in use to cope with the influx of the mine.

That is the normal practice of how we run but more courtrooms will be envious than was ever the case under his administration, as a result of the decision today. He asks what I have been doing and what is the plan but the first thing I did when I came into office was increased the number of sitting days by 500. His foot left it at 106 and I am treated immediately. -- His office. I then increased it by another 2000 before Christmas and made progress with the backlog and we are picking up the pieces of the mass is government left.

You will now be changes have also cleaned up capacity in the Crown Court and we have increased funding for criminal legal aid by £92 million to have the money to underpin the system. That is action. That is an increase in sitting days and an unprecedented increase for next year and that is what this government is delivering. He will also know that even if we were sitting at maximum capacity which has been referenced by the honourable lady Chief Justice in Parliament herself, that backlog will still rise and that is because the demand coming into the system is fast outstripping the pace at which cases are being disposed of.

So, knowing that, it would be unconscionable if I said resources alone could fix the problem and that is why Sir Brian Levenson is considering once in a generated reform and it is the steps I've taken, the thing I collected, and that if you that will lead towards reform. -- And the review. That is what the plan looks like. It could have done so in government and did not and so they cannot do it from the sidelines when someone is getting on with the job.

Finally, as someone from not the background myself, I do not stand for any differential treatment before the law for anyone of any kind and there will never be a two tier sentencing approach under my watch.
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Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his remarks and I pay tribute to the bravery he has shown in his own personal life as he has sought justice for the crimes committed against him. His journey reflects that of too many people across the country and I have experience of the people I represent directly to have their cases caught in the backlog and I recognise the impact and that is why at every available opportunity, I have sought to make progress in increasing funding application and also with the record settlement for next year but, of course, I know that we have to go further and that is why the work of Sir Brian Levenson is so crucial because without reform, no matter how much you set in the Crown Court, that backlog will rise and I cope when the review reports I can count on support for reform from across the House because we all want to see the back come down.

I will just say to him on victims funding, we have protected funding for victims of rape and sexual offences as well as domestic abuse ducts the funding is ring fenced. We will shortly set out the Victims Bill which will have further measures to strengthen the court and the axe about targets and timelines and this point was raised by the Shadow Justice Secretary. I have committed to once a generated reform of the Crown Court and once the review is complete and the government has made decisions on the recommendations it will take forward and has legislation ready, we will set out the impact of future legislation.



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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am flabbergasted with some of the
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Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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Vince.

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I beg to move that leave be given to bring a bill to amend the dentist act 1984 in respect of indemnity act 1984 in respect of indemnity arrangements. Like many new MPs in arrangements. Like many new MPs in this place, I find the first I am presenting is not something that I have experience of buttoning that is brought to me as an issue in my brought to me as an issue in my constituency. Clive Worthington was a much loved resident in Harlow.

He worked as a wood machinist and had three children and five grandchildren. And I thank my honourable friend from Lewisham East honourable friend from Lewisham East for introducing me to Clive's daughter Gina who is her constituent. When I first met Gino, she described her father as fun loving, full of life, someone who had enjoyed sport and playing with his grandchildren. However, in 2008, Mr Worthington had dental implants. Despite several follow-up operations, in the years that followed, the procedure was unsuccessful.

And left Mr Worthington in agony. Mr Worthington was awarded 117,000 £117,378 in damages and legal costs at the County Court in November 2019. One of the highest payouts for dental negligence in the UK. However, the dentist who carried out the work was only covered fire her membership of the dental defence Union, DDU. Organisations like the DDU are not insurance companies but they offer professional indemnity and discretionary basis for members against the risk of dental negligence claims and professional conduct proceedings.

The British Medical Association describes discretionary indemnity as well legal and financial systems assistance is provided at the discretion of the provider, for example not backed by an insurance contract between healthcare professional and the provider. Due to this loophole, Mr Worthington did not receive compensation, and in 2022, unable to stand the agony, and in feeling as though he had, " Lost faith in the system," He took his own life. The senior Essex coroner said the long-term consequences of Mr Worthington's unsuccessful dental surgery impacted significantly on his mental health and ability to cope with daily life.

His daughter Gina said, " It's such a tragic end to a life." It just makes me so mad. That it didn't have to end this That it didn't have to end this way." Indemnity cover for healthcare professionals, including dentists was subject of a consultation launched by the Department of Health in December 2018. To move forward and to build on enquiry recommendations and the wishes of Clive Worthington's daughter Gina, this bill is calling for an amendment to the healthcare and associated professionals indemnity arrangements order 2014 via secondary legislation.

The following amendment does not require lengthy primary legislation. My proposal is an amendment of section 26.A of the healthcare and associated professionals indemnity arrangements order 2014. And as I say, it section is paragraph 4 and section 2 of that paragraph. So amendment on section 26.A paragraph 4, and it's part two of that, which currently reads, " For the purposes of this section, an indemnity arrangement may comprise of A, a policy of insurance, B, and arrangement made for the purposes of indemnity, identifying a person, or C, combination of the two.

Michael proposes that we will change that sentence to, " For the purposes of this section, and indemnity arrangement must comprise of a

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policy of insurance." The question is that the honourable member have leave to honourable member have leave to bring the bill. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes

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contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. It will prepare and bring the bill? It will be Jen Craft, Justine

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It will be Jen Craft, Justine Will Stone, Charlotte Nicholls and

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Chris Chris Vince.

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Dentist Dentist indemnity Dentist indemnity arrangements bill.

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Second reading what day?

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Second reading what day? 18th of June. 13 June, sorry.

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13th of June. We now come to estimates day. We will start with
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Portrait Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)
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estimates day. We will start with motion on the Supplementary Estimate for the Department for health and social care. And the debate on the spending of the Department for Health and Social Care. The debate will be led by Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. Minister to move

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formally? I beg to move. The question is as on the order paper. So Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. paper. So Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

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Thank you for granting us this opportunity to debate this Supplementary Estimate, which will be an opportunity for all members of this House to look at the PAC report on health and discuss how the money on health and discuss how the money might be spent in different

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might be spent in different I am honoured to introduce this debate. The first estimates from the Department. I made this application jointly with the Member for Oxford jointly with the Member for Oxford West and chair of the Public Accounts Committee is one of the oldest committees of this House and oldest committees of this House and exists to protect taxpayer money and It It is It is being It is being used It is being used effectively.

It is being used effectively. I think it goes back to about 1867. We do not take evidence from government ministers but we take it directly from permanent secretaries and the most senior civil servants and public sector officials. We use the National Audit Office for audited accounts and value for money report. We produce our own report with recommendations to government they have to formally respond to. At this point, I would like to pay tribute to Amanda Prichard who has just announced she will be stepping down as chief executive of NHS England this summer.

She has overseen the NHS at a time when it has been under so much pressure post-pandemic. I wish you well in the future. I congratulate the new cabinet secretary. These vacancies at the head of NHS England and the Department provide an opportunity for completely fresh thinking in the

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NHS. I give way. I am very grateful to him for giving way. I echo the thanks to Amanda Prichard for her time in NHS Amanda Prichard for her time in NHS The new chair of NHS England. He is right to say this is an important

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right to say this is an important moment in the future of the National Health Service. I thank the chair of the health and social care Select Committee for and social care Select Committee for those endorsements on these worthy individuals and the work they do put in. The Department of Health and Social Care is one of the highest spending departments of the UK with a total Departmental Expenditure Limit at a huge £210.1 billion. I don't believe anybody believes the NHS is working on optimal productivity.

It is the biggest quango with the highest budget in Whitehall. However, when allocated funding it is also one of the few departments making life and death decisions which affect the lives of Of patients and their families. Therefore I think it does deserve the highest scrutiny, part of what we are doing today. Before even getting onto the figures, the audit office confirmed the level of productivity in the NHS are dropped by about 23% since the pandemic. I simply say unless this is sorted, any reform announced will be sucked into the black hole of the NHS without commensurate value for money or results.

I will give way. I do not want to give away too much or the Speaker will reprimand me for

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taking too long but I'm happy to give way. On that point specifically, I was in my local county hospital in Stafford a couple of weeks ago. I Stafford a couple of weeks ago. I noticed they were still using paper to make notes for patients. Actually it is one of the biggest barriers, it is one of the biggest barriers, unable to become more efficient in the NHS, our inability to have the NHS, our inability to have effective digital systems. Would he agree the investment announced into the NHS is long overdue in terms of moving from analogue to digital?

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moving from analogue to digital? I entirely agree. She has obviously been reading my speech. The announcement will come later and she will know exactly what it says. Before getting to the figures, the audit office confirms the levels of productivity dropped by 23%. I welcome the government commitment to a 10 year plan for the NHS. We have repeatedly warned that an ageing and increasingly sick population means the NHS will struggle to cope with the ever increasing multiple complex demands of our population.

I would like to split this speech into three sections about how productivity could be improved, funding and as the honourable lady alluded to, technical advancements shifting into community care. The day to day spending is set to increase by 10.9 billion from 187.9 billion to the main estimate as produced today of 198.5 billion. The worrying thing about the estimates today is capital spending is set to decrease by around 1 billion, from 12.5 down to 11.5, a decrease of 8%.

This is worrying. It shows more funds are being redirected from long-term investment, for example a new hospital is that the previous government committed to, and I welcome the Treasury guidelines that have stopped the practice of redirecting up to £1 billion in the last few years from capital to day to day spending. That will mean more money should be put into spending in that way. The NHS, as we know from our constituencies, is in desperate need of investment. Our capital investment programmes are running behind schedule.

The problems with RAC have added to the necessity of upgrading hospitals. I hope the Minister will listen to this plea. In the latest report on the DHSC on the annual report of accounts shows local systems, such as ICB and other providers recorded a year and overspend of 1.4 billion. Nearly doubled from 621 million in 2022-23. Despite an extra 4.5 billion of additional funding during 2023-24. To support pay deals for non-medical staff, mitigate impact from industrial action and money to address the cost of new pay arrangements for doctors and dentists.

I do not think it is acceptable -- acceptable that Lucille approved and of financial budgets for local systems, in November our committee was shocked to hear the last two years those local systems, the ICB and others had not had their financial plans approved by the Department until June and May respectively. Two three months after the beginning of the year end. How can our systems plan efficiently when these final allocations are so late? If the main accounts were finalised much sooner, it would mean local systems could have money allocated in a more timely way and therefore waste and inefficiency would be much less likely to occur.

I welcome the statement and the prognosis that the NHS is too big and complex. There should be a shift towards allowing NHS trusts more control of their own budgets as clarified in the operational planning guidance published in January. I believe by moving more funding directly to trusts, ICBs and local systems, will improve accountability and give A- level of flexibility about how funding should be spent better rather than just focusing on targets and directives. For example if they ran a surplus, because they ran their operation so well, rather than returning the money to Whitehall, it could be reinvested in capital projects which are needed.

This would also go hand in hand with a need to improve productivity. Between 1996 and 2019, the NHS averaged a measly 0.6% year increase in productivity. Since the pandemic, productivity has now fallen by 23%. In March 2024, the Conservative announcement the NHS would receive 3.4 billion of capital investment 2025, 2026 and 2027, 28, this goes to what the honourable lady mention. The NHS is committed to achieving an additional average activity improvement of 2% through the years 2029-30.

But those digital

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improvements presaged by that additional funding has not yet been fully action. I give way. I thank him for his speech and

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I thank him for his speech and the scrutiny he is giving. I think it is important. Would he agree that it is important. Would he agree that part of the issues we are talking about with productivity and the fact it has worsened since the pandemic it has worsened since the pandemic is to do with the mental health of staff and actually that needs to be staff and actually that needs to be To be as productive as they can and that includes looking after their

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health as well? He is exactly right. The NHS employs an enormous number of staff. More than one million people, I think. Conditions of work are really think. Conditions of work are really important if we are to retain them. That doesn't mean their mental health needs close attention where health needs close attention where If the NHS cannot help with mental health, who can? I think the honourable gentleman hit on a really important point. One of the reasons productivity is not improving more is there are 19% more staff in the is there are 19% more staff in the NHS but only getting 14% more patients.

At the hearing official stated this was due to more complex and acute health needs. Meaning longer stays in hospital. I also understand the point of the honourable gentleman that it was due to staff sickness, absence and the ongoing then workforce industrial action that affected most patients last year. Making targets more difficult to meet. I do not know about other honourable members but I still get emails from constituents who had appointments cancelled at the last minute because of that industrial action and they are still waiting for procedures to be rearranged.

Along with staff, technology plays a big part in improving productivity. In 2025-26, improving productivity. In 2025-26, the priority and operation planning guidance, the government stated the NHS organisation will need to reduce the cost base by at least 1% and achieved 4% improvement in productivity. I understand these figures are hard to pin down because of the NHS still negotiating with bodies like the ONS on the definition of productivity and how it can be measured. Even if the levels are disputed, we have still not seen and I would say this to the Minister today, we have not seen a plan about how these productivity gains can be achieved and the committees believe that NHS England produced unrealistic estimates.

We need to know what is the realistic estimate of what productivity gains can be and what can be achieved in the next few years. Without significant gains, the NHS will not substantially reform waiting times and achieve best value for money for the very large amount we spend on it. We spend on average around 4% increase in real terms each year. When the economy is only growing at 1%. Which is unsustainable in the long term. If we go back to 2013, the Secretary of State for set a challenge to the NHS to go paperless by 2018.

Clearly as we know this has not happened. The NHS is still using fax machines. In a digital age of AI, this lack of modernisation presents a risk to employees and patients in the NHS. Investing in better technology would help with government ambitions to shift more care into the community. Community healthcare can take many forms. GP surgeries. Community hospitals. Pharmacies. Dentists. Social care. And so much more. I fear when we talk about the NHS budget we predominantly focus on hospital care rather than the care most of our constituents need every day.

Lord Darzi in his report, commissioned by this government last year, said the NHS budget is not being spent where it should be. Too great a share is being spent on hospitals. Too little in the community. Productivity is too low. This is where I pay tribute to our GPs and their staff across the country. Especially in the North Cotswolds. Our GP surgeries are usually the first point of contact with the NHS. Antenatal services. Blood testing. Vaccination and so much more. They offer a number of services which could be termed preventative care.

We as a committee did question NHS officials on their priorities of preventing in health rather than treating it. -- Ill health. And avoiding expensive hospital interventions in future and a much better patient experience. Their reply was they had little additional headroom to grow preventative services. Yet the public health grant used by local authorities to commission preventative measures such as health visitors and drug and alcohol services is expected to fall in value next year by 193 million.

Despite the government commitment to maintaining it in real terms. I cannot stress enough how I believe we should be paying much more attention to prevention rather than NHS England said rather than moving funds there should be a focus on the role of GPs and how they can advise patients. Although according to the Royal Society of General practitioners, more than 90% of patients with their direct experience of the NHS is through primary care GP practices but currently less than 10% of the total budget is spent on primary care.

I say to the Minister gently we are So as a committee, we should track their spending annually. ICBs should also be given more flexibility as to how they can spend their money, which might for example include redirecting to more community settings who are closer to patients. It might also include redirecting funds to help manage discharges from hospital. And according to the House of Commons Library, the latest data shows that an average of 12,340 patients per day last year remained in hospital despite being clinically fit to be discharged.

And even though there is a slight decrease from last year of 1.2%, I do believe that more could be done to ensure patients who are well enough can leave hospital into community and be closer to their families. This will require better working in social

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care and hospitals. Happy to give way. Very grateful. He's making a very powerful case. For reforms. And powerful case. For reforms. And review. The Select Committee this morning in fact were looking at this morning in fact were looking at this very issue in respect of delay discharge of medically fit patients, discharge of medically fit patients, but does he not accept that in fact what we need is more integration because if only 1/4 of those delayed because if only 1/4 of those delayed discharges were down to a lack of social care package, many of these social care package, many of these patients can't be discharged because they have a primary healthcare condition which needs to be taken care of, and therefore it's actually integration and not just social care integration and not just social care

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that needs to be recalled? The unborn member makes an extreme PowerPoint, and coming to the conclusion of my speech and it's the conclusion of my speech and it's precisely that point. The social care system is not working in this country. It's a political football country. It's a political football that keeps being passed from one government to the other. I government to the other. I understand the government has committed to another review of adult social care but we won't expect results until at least 2028.

Many of our elderly patients, this will be too late. The funding of social care too late. The funding of social care is rising exponentially, and I believe there needs to be more focus and joined up thinking from both DHSE, NHS England and local authorities on how they can support those the need the help to be discharged from hospital in a timely manner and live in their own home for a longer period than they might otherwise be able to. It should not be a postcode lottery that exists now.

In conclusion, with more joined up thinking between different parts of the NHS, I believe the patient experience could be better. However, without substantial increases in productivity, increase in spending on preventative care and public health, with better functioning social care system, our NHS will never able to operate at an optimum

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level at world leading standards. I do want to try to get everybody in so I'm going to start with in so I'm going to start with immediate five minute time limits.
14:03
Clive Betts Portrait Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)
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immediate five minute time limits. Is a pleasure to follow the chair of the Public Accounts Committee first we sit on opposite sides of first we sit on opposite sides of the chamber, we spent most of our time now in this place in the same table of the committee and I welcome and congratulate him on his appointment and the work he is doing as chair. The very clear remit from the secretary of state is moved to prevention, move to community care, and move to digital services.

That's what is laid down as. I think when we have the officials from the Department and NHS England before us, what we said we thought they were complacent about the finances, and I have to say I thought there was no sense of purpose or long-term strategy to deliver on the Secretary of State for Defence objectives. That was the real worrying thing. And if you look at the immediate problems can be have a service where trusts and others can run up deficits seemingly with no consequence.

Unlike local government we have two balance the books otherwise you go to government capitalise losses. Doesn't happen in the NHS, they have the problem in South Yorkshire by Doncaster hospital runs a loss every year, not blame the hospital there because they have an old building that needs massive refurbishment, properly rebuilding are plentiful so they haven't had the resources, but those losses mean they go to the wider ICB system and then it puts pressure on other hospitals, the trust to actually not distribute any surplus amount made to community services where we should go in Sheffield but actually to fund other losses.

That's no way really to incentivise a proper financial arrangement. Absolutely right on moving towards community services. Not just to get people out of hospital but to stop them going into hospital in the first place. And that's what first place. And that's what certainly could be done. GBC, 90% of appointments get 10% of the funding. It's clearly wrong. We need to switch that. Social care again, the Health and Social Care Select Committee and the levelling up Select Committee as it boasted a joint report around eight years ago now.

20 member parliament signed up. We are still here talking about the funding. I think Louise case is a great appointment. She has a great get up and go attitude. I'm sure she could be asked to get up and go a bit before 2020 because that's a long time to wait for any response. We should be looking a lot more about moving some make services around hospitals. I say for a diagnostic centre in my constituency, the south-east of Shefford is a long way from the two teaching hospitals, said that services there, like MRI scans and ultrasound scans, X-rays, CT scans and GPs working with consultants who have come to see patients in their clinics in the community would actually save money and provide a better patient service, but it seems to get locked up and NHS financing about the commissioning and who gets paid what to see who when.

Really we just have to unravel that and recognise that services can be made to improve significantly. Digitalisation of course, the fax machine is legendary but the other week I had to change hospital appointment a couple of times, we help in changing it. I didn't really get two emails, three emails and to tax. Actually I had three letters in the first class stamp on them. All for one appointment. This is just a complete waste of money. Talking to the hospital in Sheffield, they are bringing new IT systems to cover the whole of the hospital operation, but it doesn't link into the GP systems.

it doesn't link into the GP systems. This is just a nonsense in this day and age we can get that kind of un- joined up thinking. A couple of other issues. The consultants treating me for the last seven years with very success at this stage, for , six sessions, twice a week and people have to go into the day want to get the sessions. Or for some people, they very helpfully rearrange my timetable to see me coming down here and going back.

The many people that is impossible, especially if they're coming to a specialist unit many many miles away. He's developed an idea for at-home chemotherapy. It works, it's

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good. I will give way. It is an excellent job on the Public Accounts Committee. Before he Public Accounts Committee. Before he joined the committee in the last Parliament, we went to Denmark, and they do precisely what he's just they do precisely what he's just saying, treat chemotherapy in people's home where they have a history of not reacting to it.

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Absolute. Obviously with the clinicians approval and the patient's agreement. The ideas been over two years now, I get lost in the lab and have NHS discussions on the lab and have NHS discussions on boards and committees. Come on, let's do it now. It's a good idea, exactitude and the benefits the patients, so why can't these ideas be got up and moving? Much more quickly? Public health, absolutely agree with the comments made. It's like an afterthought. The grant for public health comes four months after the main grants for the NHS and local government.

Is like the money down the back of the save the Treasury finds at the last minute, and over the years in real terms it's been cut significantly. Public health in Sheffield, doing absolutely great job. They work with the NHS Sheffield place. They've done some really good work in the north of Sheffield in very deprived communities, increasing and improving community care. That's the sort of initiative we are to follow and pursue and give the ICB the web with a touchy support and engage with it.

But equality of treatment is something, my final point, that we ought to build into our aspirations. In Sheffield you go from one end of the city to another, and life expectancy changes by 10 years. That is simply not acceptable. Yet when we come to look at child vaccinations, GPs get paid by the number of vaccinations they do. Which actually means that those GPs with the easy patients to reach in probably wealthy areas get a lot more money for doing the vaccinations than those who are really struggling to engage with the deprived communities.

That sort of initiative from NHS's wrong and we need to connect -- corrected.

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It's a privilege to make a contribution in this important seasonal debate, and I would pay tribute to my honourable friend the Member for North Cotswolds bringing this debate to the House, and I this debate to the House, and I would commend him on the work he is doing, chairing the Public Accounts Committee. And as he set out, there Committee. And as he set out, there are a number of enduring challenges are a number of enduring challenges that the NHS faces.

Productivity, the integration of different
14:10
John Glen Portrait Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)
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the integration of different systems, the challenge of public health, and the enduring issue of social care and local authorities can you provide the space for the NHS to deliver some of the outcomes that we all aspire to. Now I spent some of my time prior to the election in the Treasury. And every fiscal event that I was part of, whether it was a PPS to the Chancellor, economic secretary or chief secretary, more money was given to the NHS.

And an attempt was made before every fiscal event to ensure that all the relevant stakeholders made the right positive statements about the new commitments made, and yet six months or 12 months later, there was another pressing financial challenge. And I say that because it is frustrating. We all come to this place to try and find enduring solutions to problems that are quite complicated. And I wanted to make some observations about the challenges of multiple systems operating effectively in allocating resources.

In my own constituency, I met with, and I'm sure we'll do, meet with GPs regularly. And I met with Dan Henderson who is a partner at Salisbury medical practice. And he, alongside Anna Morton who is a practice manager explained to me the complicated dynamics with their ICB around our ICB over how to ensure that the right allocations are made for the actual inputs they are organising at GP practice. And it's mind-boggling how difficult that process is of securing the right allocations.

And the lack of ability really to plan effective systems over one, two, three years and beyond because this budget cycle is so overwhelmed in terms of managing that health system. And I think we have got to if we are going to tackle this productivity challenge, we've got come to terms with those connection points between ICBs, between GPs, between local authorities and how we actually embed behavioural shifts that give us that productivity lift. The second area I wanted to touch on, which I think despite the record 200 million of funding into the NHS is the problem of public health, and coming to terms with how we consume health services as a country.

Because it is the case that we can become where something is free at the point of need, we can become very inefficient in the way that we draw down on that provision. And I really do think we have got to look at pathways of informing and helping our constituents access health systems effectively. Now we've seen an explosion of mental health challenges in recent years, and the NHS has done a fantastic job of trying to deal with that. But I do think the issue of the variable performance of the NHS across different trusts across the country is something we should not tolerate.

And I do think one way we can raise productivity is actually exposed those variances in performance so that those that are leading the NHS can be accountable. Now for many reasons, those systems will be different and have different demographic pressures, have different challenges due to their capital estate. We have got to get these issues out in the open rather than always thinking that just ploughing more money into our NHS system is going to be the way forward. So I welcome the great investment once again in the NHS.

But I do recognise that we are going to need some radical solutions if we are going to change that productivity story. And we as a House need to unite in finding the right fixes and looking at the best ways of bringing them to fruition across our country.
14:14
Danny Beales Portrait Danny Beales MP (Uxbridge and South Ruislip, Labour)
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Thank you. When the Labour government came to office last year, the NHS was in a critical state. Its fundamental promise to be there when we need it had been broken. The uplifted funding package is the first step along the road to making good on that promise once again. But the pressures facing our healthcare system are not over. Our system does need fundamental reform as well as investment and to achieve the ambitious 4% efficiency targets on which this budget is premised will be challenging and will require

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It is vital we continue capital investment. We saw the previous government leaving long-term productivity issues that we face productivity issues that we face I have seen hospital wards closed. Unable to do procedures. Pharmacies desperate to do more but without the clinical space to expand. The 3 billion uplift in the future capital budget is very good news. But can I budget is very good news. But can I ask the Minister when she responds to outline again that commitment to protect capital budgets, to maximise them, to deliver the change we need? During my work on the committee, I have heard time and again it is The 10 year plan, we have to bring together health and social budgets.

We have to change financial flows. We have to align health and social care budget cycles to provide long- term settlements for both sectors. NHS NHS which NHS which is NHS which is primary NHS which is primary care NHS which is primary care and NHS which is primary care and I NHS which is primary care and I will address the rest of my comments here. Primary care is best placed to provide advice to keep people well and deliver community-based healthcare that keeps people out of hospital. But precisely these services, GPs, dentists, pharmacies, optometrists, who face some of the harshest underfunding and neglect in the last 14 years of Conservative mismanagement.

The New Deal announced last week is a welcome step to improving provision. But GPs cannot do it alone. Primary care is more than just a general practice. There are other components still in a state of crisis. Community pharmacies are on the same flat contract that expired in 2024 and it contract that expired in 2024 and it The estimate is 400 pharmacies were. To close permanently in the last 12 months. I recently visited a pharmacy in my constituency and saw the great work they are doing on vaccinations, health advice and much more.

They are desperate to expand the range of services they offer. On optometry, having recently met the team at Uxbridge Specsavers, it is clear optometry is more than just glasses and contact lenses. With advanced testing they have diagnosed a range of conditions such as high blood pressure and even brain tumours. From dentistry, the dental contract is no longer fit for purpose. Many practices are no purpose. Many practices are no longer delivering NHS appointments and those who do are doing so at a financial loss.

In Uxbridge, a majority of practices are now closed to new NHS patients. Adults and children. This clearly cannot go on. With this in mind the provision of 700,000 extra urgent dental care appointments on the NHS announced last month by the new government is vital and desperately needed. Clearly more is needed. Can I ask the Minister if the new dental budget will continue to be ring fenced? Will we make sure that unlike the previous government we will not under deliver and underspend on the vital dentistry budget? Will she confirmed that negotiations for the new contract will begin in earnest this year to permanently fix the dentistry crisis? The mental health investment standard has been crucial in protecting mental health spending as part of a vital shift towards mental health parity of esteem.

I hope the government can explore how to better track community-based health spending and preventative spending. Ideally preventing and growing the share primary care sees as part of the NHS budget. The task of rebuilding the health estate and primary care is immense. However it is not insurmountable. Labour has turned around the NHS before and I am confident this government will do it again, creating a genuine community-based healthcare system.
14:19
Gregory Stafford Portrait Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know there are serious challenges facing our health and social care system. Particularly in the context of current and future funding. We all know the NHS is under immense pressure. The population is ageing. Health needs are becoming more complex. And the effect of the pandemic continues to be felt. If we want a system that works for everybody, we need to address the challenges with strategic and effective solutions. Before I became an MP, I worked in healthcare.

Most recently as part of the getting it right first time system. It focuses on improving patient care by studying what works best, comparing data and making practical changes. Through this work I saw where the system is bogged down by excessive bureaucracy, bad organisation, people activity and unacceptable variation in care. Problems wasting time and money instead of helping patients. We need to streamline processes, modernise services and focus on patient outcomes rather than bureaucracy. When the last government was in charge, we increased funding to record levels.

In 2023-24 the day-to-day budget was nearly 180 billion. There is even more being spent in the current budget. The real question is where is the extra money going? Despite the additional spending, the chief financial officer of NHS England admitted to the Select Committee that almost all of this year's 10.6 billion uplift will be can assumed by pay settlement, increased national insurance contributions and the rising cost of treatment and medicines. Very little or none at all will be left for improving patient care.

The government is pouring billions into the NHS. But without demanding productivity reforms, the money is being absorbed by the system instead of reaching the front line where it is needed most. In my constituency, which includes Haslemere and surrounding villages, we have challenges in ensuring fair access to services Rapid housing developments continue and yet healthcare provision has failed to keep pace. The ICB is pushing ahead with proposals for a new health hub but there are concerns it will not meet the future demands of a growing population.

Residents at one hospital need assurances new facilities will provide long-term sustainable care. Strides Strides in Strides in expanding Strides in expanding services, reducing pressure on GP surgeries and major hospitals like the Royal Surrey County Hospital. Ongoing support however is needed. Upgrading equipment. Increasing staffing. Continued investment. To allow the hospital to remain a cornerstone of the local healthcare provision. In Farnham, it faces persistent issues with healthcare and access to dental services. A shortage of dentists is an escalating crisis, leaving many residents without the care needed.

Too many people are forced to travel long distances or go without treatment entirely. Indeed across the constituency, transport links to places remain a concern. As a regional hub, it is a vital role to serve farm at -- Farnham and Bordon. But for many in rural areas, access is a challenge. I have worked closely with the local authorities to prove connectivity, including expansion of services. But if the government wants to expand services it needs to look at it holistically.

Not just buildings but how to access them. Labour's tax increase on GPs, care homes and social care providers are putting vital services at risk. Royal College of GPs warned this will force some surgeries to close or reduce surgeries. In my own constituency this has been demonstrated. I have spoken to a doctor from Hampshire primary care and from Guardian Angels and they told me these changes are forcing small healthcare providers to cut staff hours, downsize operations and even lay off employees. Hospices are also struggling with projected costs increasing of 30 million and I am lucky a hospice in my constituency is currently going through a major rebuild but others are not so lucky.

The government needs to focus on real reforms to improve productivity and modernise healthcare. If the Health Secretary is serious about making the NHS better, explain how he plans to integrate this into the 10 year plan. The reality is with this Labour government it has not built the New Hospital Programme's Social care costs and labour have no plans to fix the NHS. Instead of returning to the futile model of Whitehall knows best, the government should be looking at actively devolving funding and to local systems, with provision of punishment if they fail and ultimately we need an open conversation with the public about how to deliver the system that funds

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healthcare. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Meeting with my constituency Thurrock serves as a reminder of the state of the NHS and the health of
14:24
Jen Craft Portrait Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)
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state of the NHS and the health of our nation. I often hear from residents that cannot access NHS services, being stuck in a waiting list or not able to see their doctors. But I see how the determinants play out. Putting people in part of my constituency at a disadvantage from day one. Housing, unemployment and education drives health inequality and in our most deprived communities, people do not live to see their 80th birthday. This represents the immense task the government has been set.

The funding of the health service and the estimates we are discussing our fundamental to turning the tide on these trends. 14 years of neglect and failure, the highest waiting list on record and an ageing population getting sicker and unmet need in communities across the country means the NHS is at a pivotal point in history. It must fundamentally change how it operates to survive. The £22.6 billion of funding committed to revenue spending at the budget was a welcome cash injection. The impact of which is already being felt in the delivery of the manifesto commitment of 2 million more appointments a year, which is testament to this.



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Waiting lists have fallen... I give way. I did mention it in my speech but

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I did mention it in my speech but I think she was at the committee when the chief financial officer of NHS England said the 10.6 billion extra allocated for this year will be entirely eaten up by other costs, including national insurance and including national insurance and there would be almost no extra money for frontline patient care. Does she

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remember that? I thank the honourable member for his intervention. I was indeed at his intervention. I was indeed at that committee. I also remember the reflection that NHS England was grateful for the amount of money that was being given. The highest amount of money given to any department at the budget. And much more than has been given in previous years. I will continue. Waiting lists have fallen for the fourth month in a row which I would hope the honourable member opposite and his colleagues would welcome.

With 160,000 fewer people waiting for treatment than when Labour took office including a member of my own family. I am grateful to see that happen. And extending the opening hours of diagnostic centres like the one set to open in my constituency this summer will be key to catch conditions earlier. While I welcome these measures, I would like to we must turbocharge the shift to community healthcare. In my constituency it is often the front door to the NHS that lets local people down.

Quite often it drives admission to accident and emergency when there is no alternative. We have seen acute GP shortages. An average of 3431 patients per GP. Health hub promised by the previous government are yet to be delivered. People in Tilbury, one of my most economically deprived areas are still waiting for a long promised facility which currently looks like a hole in the ground. I would welcome discussions with the Minister about how to work to deliver this. The record uplift for general practice with more investment is again very welcome.

It does highlight there is a fundamental tension between tackling the crisis and driving the shift to community care that will be fundamental in turning the tide on Of reducing pressure on acute services in this country and create better, healthier lives and deliver the right care at the right time to put a focus on the individual. Thurrock community hospital in my constituency delivers excellent integrated community care, bringing together social workers from the local authority and NHS staff to meet people where they are at.

Intervening early and reducing pressures on acute care. This is in part thanks to a partnership between the local authority and the Integrated Care Board. They have Integrated Care Board. They have removed the need to focus on which body benefits and which body pays. To point out, we have one of the lowest spends on adult social care in our local authority in part due to measures like this. The real focus they look on is how to deliver individual patients. What does the patient need and how do they get to that place? I welcome the move to address the strict targets placed on ICBs in the recent planning guidance, allowing more work to potentially take place, by giving independence to Integrated Care Boards, to make decisions relevant to their local population.

However I have heard from ICBs including my own there is a risk that a focus on elective care targets may draw focus and attention away from prevention. I would particularly like to draw attention to the removal of the learning disability and health checks from the planning guidance. This is a community that is historically underserved. Historically under meant health needs. This is a population that dies younger and does not actually access repetitive care at the point at which it would benefit them.

We at which it would benefit them. We know a blanket prevention does not cover a population such as this. They need specific intervention to allow them to access to health care they need and when they need it. It may be a blanket annual health check and that is not necessarily the right way forward but it is critical groups historically overlooked and not served by the current system are looked at going forward when we shift to community work and So to conclude, I very much welcome the strong investment the governors making in our NHS.

It's -- absolute vital to turn this around to make sure it's there for generations to come. But I like to welcome the Minister's thought and how we incentivise prevention as well as acute care.

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Chair of the Select Committee. I think we are proving that the estimates are not dull, much as they have a terrible reputation for being have a terrible reputation for being so. Because everything comes with the money, even if you don't follow the money, even if you don't follow the money, then you don't do our constituents a surface. The government has announced an
14:31
Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)
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government has announced an incredibly welcome £22.6 billion increase in the Health and Social Care day-to-day spend, and that's in addition to the further 3 billion in the capital expenditure. And it sounds like and it is a huge amount of money, and if it's not spend wisely, the only thing that will be bigger than the uplifted self is the disappointment of our constituents if it doesn't lead to the change that they so desperately want and need. I start with an example. A constituent of mine was referred to her GP for an NHS funded assessment for autism spectrum disorder.

She took tests which all exceeded the threshold, and then was told that she had to be on a waiting list with an expected weight of... 16 to 18 years. Yes, years. She is now 34 with young children and waiting for an appointment until she is 51. It's clearly ridiculous. So we welcome the three shifts, the 10 year plan and the long-term thinking which hopefully will reverse some of the stories, and I know members across the House will have many similar.

I was interested that the Secretary of State shows of the three technology as his top pick when I pressed him to pick a favourite and our committee hearing on 18 December. In recent correspondence to the committee, which is now up online can leg department credited technology with a .7% activity contribution this year alone. I have a concern though that we don't have much detail about how exactly they are going to achieve that and we will be pressing them on that figure.

Prevention is also incredibly important. And it always has the danger of being overlooked, but I can assure the Minister, and I know it's hair that is responsible for this, that if they don't do it, we will be pressing them to, as I'm sure the electorate will as well

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because it is a no-brainer. I think the chair of the Select

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I think the chair of the Select Committee for giving way. The fact though is that everyone prevention, we are going to have to invest in we are going to have to invest in social care, but the current spending is to literally put almost all of that investment she has all of that investment she has talked about into the NHS rather than the social care. Surely there

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needs to be a rebalancing. I thank you very much for his point because in our committee hearing just this morning we had hearing just this morning we had very well that actually all parts of the system now really want to do this. And while acute care trusts recognise that they've got their fair share, actually the bulk of the share, they also realise that unless they start pulling budgets and start doing some of this stuff in a really integrated way, we're not going to achieve the productivity gains we desperately need.



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Just following on from the previous intervention from the honourable gentleman on the Conservative benches, actually the Conservative benches, actually the government policy with respect to social care, Peter runs a small domiciliary service in my constituency, and that is now going bust. 35 people without a job, 100 bust. 35 people without a job, 100 grand in taxes every year, and all of those patients now blocking beds in hospitals. She not agree with me in hospitals. She not agree with me that the government policies at the moment actually downgrading and trashing social care rather than

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boosting it up? I share his expression of frustration that we are not doing more faster, and do the very first enquiry our committee has launched a social care. The cost of inaction because we want to understand there is a cost of doing nothing as well, and that needs to be quantified as best we can. And of those three shifts, that shift to the community is incredibly important, not least because successive secretaries of state have said they wanted to do this and yet the money has flowed in the opposite direction.



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In Cromer in my constituency, about 18 months ago the Conservative about 18 months ago the Conservative -controlled county council closed down Benjamin Court way a woman centre. It's exactly the sort of centre. It's exactly the sort of facility we need to help bridge the gap between acute hospitals and the community and primary care. Would you agree with me that we must work you agree with me that we must work to reopen these facilities and also that they don't stand a chance until that they don't stand a chance until proper integration of budgets between the NHS and adult social care providers?

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Where there are examples of where this works well, we should be celebrating them, not shutting them down. In Oxford, the hospital at home program run by Oxford University Hospital ambulatory team is doing incredible work. I visited 91 years young Mavis the other day who in her home was receiving top- notch ultrasounds, better quality than what she could get in the hospital. Saving hundreds of pounds to the NHS, and no long trip for her and her family who take care of her in hospital.

This is definitely something we should be doing more of. Limited to the estimates because this is why we are here. So we've got the Supplementary Estimates that have been published. I'm not here to hit anyone over the head with them but they are incredibly heavy, but they are worth a read. Because in that Supplementary Estimate, talks about 195... £198.5 billion for the day-to-day spending budget, and while on the face value commits an increase actually of 10.9 billion, since the estimate in July, 9.2 billion of this is on staff pay increases.

Let's be clear, they deserve that pay rise. It's long overdue. Retention is important, mental health is important. We must invest in our workforce, but it does just leave 1.7 billion. I will make some progress if I may. The clock is ticking down. But it's worth saying that after you take that 1.7 billion, the add-in NIC increases, inflationary costs, the NHS has a task for an additional 812 million on top, so it's already running a little bit behind. And next year, the increase is due to be 10.6 billion and as we heard in our hearing, the expected pressures are 11.7 billion.

We can all do the maths. There is a problem. And the way it's going to get solved, at least on paper is an enormous 4% productivity increase which is a combination of productivity and cost reductions. We need more detail about how exactly that's going to be done. I'd like to echo my committee members point about capital expenditure as well. In these estimates we see already there has been a decrease in the capital spend by £1 billion. From there 24/25 Main Estimate.

It's explained away as a transfer of day-to-day spending due to a reclassification of spending on technology and new hospitals as day-to-day spending. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound quite right to me. And I'm concerned that the government is falling into the same traps the previous governments did. Perhaps quite understandably because you have to pay for the day-to-day somehow, but if the insurance they give to the Public Accounts Committee was that they would stop doing this, I wonder if it is still the case and if it's possible.

Very finally I want to say I want to do more of this, more scrutiny of the estimates, but actually it's quite hard to do because if you look at the detail of it, there's a lack of detail. For example there are £120 billion in this document that comes under the subheading of NHS providers with absolutely no detail under that at all. So I ask of the Minister is which you commit to working with the committee and the House of Commons scrutiny unit to provide Parliament

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with a meaningful breakdown so we can have more wonderful debates just like this? I'm now going to start with an immediate four minute time limit.
14:39
Neil Duncan-Jordan Portrait Neil Duncan-Jordan MP (Poole, Labour)
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Neil Duncan-Jordan. I want to start by acknowledging

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I want to start by acknowledging the 25 the £25 billion additional funding the Health and Social Care, allocated in the Autumn Budget. allocated in the Autumn Budget. Already we are beginning to see improvements in waiting times, dental appointments and access to treatment. This is absolutely what my constituents in Paul wanted and needed to see from a Labour government. The area we are fronting is more challenging... I'm afraid not. The area where the funding is more challenging is around the issue of social care.

And that's what I want to focus my comments on. There is widespread acceptance that our current social care system is neither sustainable nor fit the purpose. For far too long it's been the Cinderella service at the welfare state, overlooked and underfunded. And suffering from number of inherent problems that started to emerge decades ago. Which have now become critical as a result of severe cuts to funding and increasing demand. Most people who have looked the system recognise the huge cost to the NHS of keeping people in hospital when they could be discharged into the community.

But too often not the care packages in place to enable that to happen. This will only be resolved when we have a better understanding of the dynamics of social care and have a more effective way of managing it. Now part of addressing the crisis in the system therefore requires us to reconsider the meaning of the term social care and to abandon the false divisions between medical, nursing, personal, and social care and instead regard all of these activities as part of a single care service.

Now a new national care service should therefore seek to go further than the existing model of provision. As well as providing free domiciliary and residential care to all existing users, who are currently self funding, it should also have to take account of the 2 million older people who currently have needs that are not being met by the system, improve the terms and conditions of care staff, strengthen regulation and monitoring of services, and provide greater support for the countries 5 million unpaid carers.

That's why there needs to be an immediate national debate about national care service that can be publicly funded and delivered and about what it should include and who should be responsible for its delivery. And I'm afraid the new KC commission will only delay that debate further. In my view. Now we have known about the problems for a very long time. Over the last two decades, we've had at least 20 commissions, inquiries and reports analysing what is wrong with the system and what might be done to address the problems.

However, successive governments have all found the issue too difficult to tackle. And instead have favoured short-term answers which have largely left the system untouched. The issue that all politicians have avoided is the false division between Health and Social Care and the question of how that care should be funded. No one should face personal care costs simply because they are unlucky enough to suffer from conditions like dementia. This undermines the very principle of our NHS, so society must share the burden with those most able to contribute making their fair share.

Our universalist principles must take us to talk about correcting these inequalities, ensuring that the wealth resources and budgets to build a fairer healthier society for all.

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I commend my honourable friend the Member for North Cotswolds bringing forward this debate, and bringing forward this debate, and agree with the majority of what occurred in this chamber so far. We must understand the context of these large figures that are being announced by government, and I turn in particular to the £10 billion for the NHS next year. It sounds like a
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Joe Robertson Portrait Joe Robertson MP (Isle of Wight East, Conservative)
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the NHS next year. It sounds like a big figure, but my colleague the chair of the Health and Social Care Select Committee has informed us, and she's right, the vast majority of that money, around eight to nine William will be taken up in union pay deals, national insurance increases, brought about by the Chancellor. And inflation. When all essential costs that the NHS have to meet are taken into account, the £10 billion represents a shortfall, and the NHS will only be able to deliver if it delivers productivity gains.

So we must understand £10 million

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won't even meet the required cost of the NHS, and of course I give way. Appreciate the honourable member

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Appreciate the honourable member giving way. I would just like to ask the honourable member casino consider the workforce a vital part consider the workforce a vital part of the NHS, and that funding them properly, recognising them properly through a pay deal that through a pay deal that appropriately recognises the effort they put in as part of the work of turning round the outcome for our

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NHS? I agree with all the things unhappy we agree with each other, and I hope she will acknowledge that £10 million does not cover the basic requirements the NHS needs. It delivers nothing more, in fact it delivers less and the NHS will only be able to continue to grow if it delivers productivity gains. And it

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Does he remember that when the Secretary of State was in Secretary of State was in opposition, he was very clear at the opposition, he was very clear at the time when he said there would be no pay increases unless there would be productivity gains and reforms to the way the NHS operates? Now they are in government that seems to have evaporated.

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evaporated. I remember very clearly. What I would like to see the Minister do is spell out how she will deliver productivity gains through reform. productivity gains through reform. We want to hear more detail so we can be confident the NHS is secure. If I now turn to one area she might like to reflect upon, that is the use of technology, and the candidate to take over as chair of NHS England said very clearly at the Select Committee she would like to see technology deliver.

She sees a lot of opportunities. She herself remarked how basic technology in the I recall she used the example of nurses taking half an hour to turn on a computer system. Having to use five passwords to access it. I said to her, it is hardly sensible trying to deliver technology gains around ARI and all those opportunities it might bring if we cannot deal with very basic low-tech problems throughout the NHS. She agreed with me. She accepted that as a challenge.

I would like to see how the Secretary of State through the Minister will support NHS England to deliver that. I would also like to see the dementia target, diagnosis target, brought back into planning guidance for NHS England. It was taken out this year. It was taken out with consultation with the Secretary of State, so he allowed that. Diagnosing dementia is the most important thing we can do for people living with dementia and their families, to take the diagnosis target out is inexcusable.

I accept the wider point is that if everything is a target and everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. But I hope we can all agree that the biggest killer in this country, dementia, must be a priority for the NHS. That target for diagnosis rates must come back into the planning guidance next year. Indeed the word "dementia" doesn't even feature, which I think is shameful. If I finish by talking about where the money gets spent, we can have disagreements about how much is needed, but Lord Darcy was very clear that it is not being spent in the right places.

Too much money in the NHS is being spent on hospitals and not enough in the community. The Secretary of State is going to have to take some tough decisions. He accepts that. One of them is going to have to be to reduce the proportion of money spent on hospitals. That is difficult to do. It is difficult politically. But we are prepared to back him across this House if it is part of a plan to deliver meaningful change and to move more people out of hospitals, into communities, which is where they want to be treated most.

Nobody wants to be in hospital if they have no medical reason to be there. Finally the Chancellor must understand that every decision she takes must be coherent. It must be consistent with delivering the three shifts. When she came to this despatch box to deliver the budget in October, she recognised National Insurance increases were going to be crippling for healthcare. That is why she exempted the NHS from those increases. But she failed to exempt other key providers of healthcare.

Particularly primary care. Like GPs. So it is no good now saying the GP So it is no good now saying the GP pay deal is a record pay deal. Because when you take out the money they have got to pay for National Insurance Contributions, that represents more than 50% of the money the government gave them. The Chancellor must backup the left shifts with fiscal decisions from the despatch box.

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Before I call the next speaker, members may be wanting to know that with the amount of time we have got left on this debate, the amount of members wanting to speak in this members wanting to speak in this debate, I am not going to be able to get everybody in even with a four

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minute limit. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased to be called on this debate. It is important we have it.
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Josh Fenton-Glynn Portrait Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)
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is needed. Looking to my constituents, I can also speak about the need to invest in urgent the need to invest in urgent treatment centres and I celebrate the achievement of the NHS Trust and I continue to raise this with my honourable friend the Secretary of State. As I have the privilege, State. As I have the privilege, among others in this chamber, of sitting on the Select Committee, I do want to talk in more broad terms do want to talk in more broad terms about some of the problems in the health and social care system and how the proposed shift in the NHS needs to re-prioritise resources.

I will be focusing on the proportion of the so-called left shift from hospital care to community. Something the member from the North Cotswolds already outlined about coming from on high and not from the previous 15 years of government. With 10% of people stuck in waiting list in the healthcare system, it is becoming increasingly hospital centric. There is no solution to the crisis without the left shift of solving problems earlier. Of course we need hospitals. We need to invest in them.

There are complex cases and they should not be going for different services elsewhere. But despite care in the community being obvious to just about everyone, one of the most glaring revelations in the report was how poorly successive governments have done in achieving that. Meanwhile we are not training or retaining enough GPs. This is why the negotiation of the contract is important. In Calder Valley, the retention crisis has meant local surgeries and practices all have a ratio of patient to qualified GP that is far higher than the national averages.

Averages which simply do not meet the need for what we need from our health service. And after more than a decade after the Dilnot Report, social care remains a forgotten service or at least a lower provided for service as mentioned. 1.4 million social care staff in the system, and it is actually the same size as the NHS workforce but it gets nothing like the support or the understanding of other areas in the system. The consequence of this is week after week committee heard about 20% of beds in my own hospital being taken up by people who should be treated closer to home.

People are missing appointments because they are delivering care to loved ones, adding to the strain on the NHS. In less than a year, this government has entered the industrial action in the NHS. Delivered 2 million extra appointments and is now dealing with GPs. But that is not the full extent of our actions. Just as the 10 year plan said, we are trying to fix the crisis in the NHS and put more money into hospitals. Tackling the symptoms but not the causes.

So when we set out estimates, I urged mindfulness about the shift we need mindfulness about the shift we need to increase focus on community and social care. That is what we need for a sustainable system to protect the health service in future. A sustainable system is the only way to deliver better health care and to deliver better health care and better social care for people across this country.
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Seamus Logan Portrait Seamus Logan MP (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East, Scottish National Party)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I begin by commending the honourable member for the North Cotswolds in securing this debate today. I pay tribute to the retiring chief executive of an outstanding public servant who will be sadly missed in post. The revised expenditure for the Department sees no increase in the Department sees no increase in the estimates and I want to comment on how it affects Scotland generally in my constituency. Let's begin with these numbers and think about how this expenditure might go.

Salaries and wages. Price increases. Particularly fuel and food. Certainly more taxes. The new definition of the circular economy as I understand it. Let us also consider how the changes affect partners in health and social care. GPs, hospices, charities, already under huge financial pressure from rising energy costs. Staff retention issues. Labour shortages. Staff morale is low already and will be impacted further by funding cuts in the vital services they provide. We have to meet these rising costs and then we have the increases to employer National Insurance Contributions for these partners.

We look across the border and into England we see additional GP contract funding in England close to £1 billion. Which will cushion much of the additional national insurance costs. Let me share an example from Aberdeenshire Council where I was an elected member. The cost of the council with the additional changes to National Insurance is about 11 billion. The estimate to mitigate these costs is around 5.5 stop the difference is stark and cannot simply be written off as a Scottish government responsibility as we are constantly reminded that all goods lead to Westminster when it comes to funding.

When it comes to enterprise partners like GPs, Marie Curie, and I see you wearing the badge, like local GP surgeries in long haven, they are paying the price. Turning to hospices, the Minister of State has stated there will be no additional Barnett consequentials.

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I remind the honourable gentleman

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constituency. There will be no additional Barnett consequentials arising for Scotland for hospices. The Scottish Scotland for hospices. The Scottish Government is investing an additional 4 million in the hospice additional 4 million in the hospice sector. But that sector, that wider sector they say £2.5 billion bill sector they say £2.5 billion bill from these additional employer National Insurance Contributions. A flat exemption would mean they do Perhaps also not evident from these estimates are the eye watering cost of agency staff.

Felt no less in Scotland. Partly because of the regressive immigration policies of the last government, now pursued by this government. We have asked for these powers to be devolved to Scotland. If you cannot do that, then there is an alternative approach and that has been pointed out by the Member for Salisbury. The Royal College of radiologists tell us the workforce shortfall in radiology and oncology, around 30% and 15%. They say the most urgent task facing the NHS is to manage the workforce crisis by investing in an increase of 150 radiology training places and 45 oncology training places.

Rather than relying on outsourcing and international recruitment. Training costs and every bill is as expensive in Scotland as it is here. I say to the Treasury in conclusion through the Like they live in some fast state.

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They are taxpayers as well. Rather than expecting us to give your thanks, get your cheque-book out because of the pressures I have listed. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the chair of the and other members who I sit on the committee with. The financial sustainability of the health service will have an impact upon patients now and in future. Given it is such a large amount of money spent by the government, it is imperative to focus on value for money for the taxpayer so that at a time when demand is going but resources are demand is going but resources are limited, we can deliver the best health service the British people deserve at my constituency and barking can rely on.

But for too long the Department and NHS England have taken a short-term approach to budgeting, relying on reallocating capital budgets to cover revenue shortfalls. Between 2014-19, more than 4 billion was raided as such from capital budgets to fund day- to-day spending. As the next council leader, this approach has always been curious to me given local authorities have mentioned that they are not permitted to have the same approach. Counters are legally obliged to set annual balanced budgets and even when they overspend because of demand led statutory services, we cannot set deficit budgets.

I give way.

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I would also wish to reflect on the finding that the council tax the finding that the council tax varies from place to place. Counters are even more disadvantaged than the

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NHS when it comes to funding. It is a very important point. Health inequalities are determined Health inequalities are determined by a multitude of factors and the work they do on public health is crucial as well. Compare the point I made about local authorities not being able to set deficit budgets to the NHS. When every year winter pressures mean the NHS is at crumbling point and money pours in, despite money being poured in the NHS system overspends by last year £1.4 billion.

More than double the previous year. But these issues are not just emerged in a silo. It is the result of years of mismanagement and failed leadership from former ministers and a government that allowed the chaos of one year budget settings which ended health leaders from effectively planning for the future. It is a lack of political commitment and a refusal to invest in the future that has led to awful consequences for patients. If you take the NHS estate, you will see the National audit report showed since 2019, more than 5,000 appointments and surgeries and other clinical incidents had to be cancelled because of issues in buildings.

It is shocking. I take the points made. I will not take any

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Was a pleasure to serve within

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Was a pleasure to serve within the Public Accounts Committee under the Member for North Cotswolds leadership. She makes an excellent leadership. She makes an excellent point about the rating of capital budgets. In my own constituency we budgets. In my own constituency we have a RAAC invested hospital, and it's only with a New Labour it's only with a New Labour government with a properly funded and deliverable plan for new and deliverable plan for new hospitals that we are going to see that put right.

So did she agree with me that the decision by the Chancellor to ring fence capital funding in the future should mean

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that this won't be happening again under our watch? Very pleased to have accepted the

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Very pleased to have accepted the intervention. And I entirely agree
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Nesil Caliskan Portrait Nesil Caliskan MP (Barking, Labour)
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intervention. And I entirely agree with her, but the point is that if you want to see an improvement in the estate of the NHS, you need to have the money allocated to it. And at a time where the NHS really was at breaking point, my constituents had to feel that pain is not being had to feel that pain is not being able to get appointments for the sickness they are experiencing, often in pain. The subpopulation I represent who already has some of the worst health inequalities in the country, and it's exacerbated by the lack of primary healthcare provision.

Some boards in my constituency have no GPs at all. So I welcome remarks made by members on both sides of the House in acknowledging the importance of primary healthcare provision. Without reform, the NHS is simply not financially sustainable. But alongside reform, there must be a culture of change in NHS England, and the Public Accounts Committee report highlights that last year, NHS England failed to approve ICB financial plans until months after the financial year had begun. And working with local NHS bodies, we've seen examples of ICBs, dinner the other members have raised this in their speech to.

We've seen examples of ICBs talking the good talk when it comes to prevention and public health, but when it comes down to commissioning, we really in many areas see the lack of action in how they commission to have a positive impact on prevention. Happy to give

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way. I entirely agree with the point

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I entirely agree with the point she is making, but doesn't the impetus have to come from the top, unless the government is making strides to shift monies from strides to shift monies from strides to shift monies from healthcare to social care, then why on earth should any of the ICBs follow suit?

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follow suit? I don't disagree with that, which is why I think the commitment from the government around reform will be so critical, and is it in the public accounts committee report which accounts committee report which highlighted some of these gaps, and we will as a committee look very closely at the reforms that have come forward from the government, and I welcome what will be comments from the Minister and further reassurance on that. The government is absently right to be investing into the NHS to help deal with the critical waiting list at the moment.

But only alongside reform with the additional investment in the NHS be value for money. And only through reform can NHS improve productivity to make it sustainable. And do endorse comments made by members on both sides of the House around productivity because as it stands, without reform, the NHS cannot even meet its own productivity percentages that they set out. That's why the estimates are so important as we are discussing today. The 4.9 increase in investment as I've said is welcome because it will help cover the pay review body's recommendations, pay increase for NHS staff, stopping strikes, improving staff retention and keeping more doctors and nurses work absolutely crucial if we want a properly functioning NHS.

The secretary of state for health and ministers and his team have said time and time again that the NHS is beaten but not broken. These estimates are important because they set the foundation and springboard for what is required to fix our NHS.
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Sarah Bool Portrait Sarah Bool MP (South Northamptonshire, Conservative)
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Thank you. The government came into office making all the right noises about tackling waiting list and living a better healthcare service. All things that our constituents want to see. However, since their election, and can set the ministers are giving out more money, about 22.6 billion for the day-to-day running to the NHS but without plans for how this may be spent to reform our health service, make it more efficient and support priority areas like dentistry, general practice or hospice care.

The government is seemingly giving with one hand and taking with the other. No one should underestimate the impact of the increase in not national insurance contributions to national insurance contributions to our GP services for top both taste and brightly medical centres in my constituency have said that this increase will cost at least £40- £50,000 and may result in redundancies and stopping the growth of their practices. Our surgeries are not here to make profits but to deliver care, and attacks like this make care unsustainable.

This is a time when the Darzi report said that the NHS budget is not being spent where it should be. Too great a share is being spent on hospitals, too little in the community and productivity is too low.

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I won I once again agree with her. She agree that there will be a her. She agree that there will be a significant shift from acute care hospital to community care, despite the rhetoric we've heard from the

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other benches? I do concur. I haven't seen anything, which is why it's important we have the sort of debate important we have the sort of debate today. Indeed my GPs are rightly telling me on this point the more attention does need to be given to attention does need to be given to GP practices. These are the GP practices. These are the praetorian guard who can ultimately protect the NHS. Access to timely appointments is crucial, as is rebuilding the key relationships and contact between a GP and their patient.



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The last government we had 20% of

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The last government we had 20% of our NHS doctors thinking about moving overseas. Surely solving the GP contract is a first step to

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keeping GPs working in this country. Indeed I want to encourage GPs to

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Indeed I want to encourage GPs to be remaining within the UK giving back to what they do. So everything we can do in that regard I'm always fully supportive of. But also on fully supportive of. But also on this, I will make some progress, also on this point, this is also reinforced by the committee of the reinforced by the committee of the public accounts report on the NHS financial stability from January this year, which concluded that a real reallocation of funds was needed to focus from sickness to prevention.

I am a massive advocate of prevention. Many members will know that I talk about being a type 1 diabetic, and if hasn't told me -- heard me talking about it, they may have heard my sense offer low blood sugar for top but this image we doing preventative measures in diabetes. Preventative medicine. We cannot prevent type 1 diabetes, but for example, we could have earlier testing in children so that we could avoid them being diagnosed when a state of diabetic ketoacidosis, which can be fatal.

Families can be prepared and ready and avoid hospitalisation, therefore saving cost to the NHS whilst also saving lives. We can also ensure access to technology which can avoid the huge complications. Poor blood sugar control can result in loss of eyesight and limbs alongside heart and other conditions. Making continuous glucose monitors and even insulin pumps available across the country to significant help the patient and in the long-term safety NHS money. At the moment it's a very unfair postcode lottery. So I asked the ministers to consider ways to tip the funding balance to ensure that both prevention and community care measures are funded properly.

And the final point, any reforms to the NHS must consider the computer operating systems in place. Many of my constituents have to go out of the constituency for their hospital care, be that to Northampton to the John Radcliffe, Horton, Milton Keynes or Kettering hospitals. But all those trusts operate on different systems, meaning that my constituents often cannot have their scans or medical notes shared easily. This is frustrating for residents but also potentially fatal. One resident noted that his wife was nearly given a drug that she was allergic to because her notes had not been able to be shared correctly.

And it was only his presence that saved her. We must ensure that money is spent to look at this and change the systems, and that has been explained by the four North Cotswolds very make the member four North Cotswolds very conclusively first we await our constituents to work across the

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Our healthcare and support the fantastic work of our doctors and nurses. I will be starting Frontbench

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I will be starting Frontbench contributions at 3: 15, so the final contribution from the Backbench is Alex McIntyre. Prior to entering this House I was incredibly proud to represent our NHS and other healthcare providers in my last career, and I will continue to fight our NHS now will continue to fight our NHS now that I sit here as an MP. And I saw first-hand the impact of Tory mismanagement had on our NHS. There mismanagement breached one of the
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Alex McIntyre Portrait Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)
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mismanagement breached one of the fundamental principles of medical ethics, first do no harm. And this week I saw that first at my own constituency in Gloucester when I visited Gloucestershire Royal Hospital and I met with Gloucestershire ICB this morning and earlier this year visited the puffy surgery. The challenges they face won't be surprising in this House. They were set out in stark terms in the Darzi report. And the challenges we face are replicated across the country in many constituencies, since backlogs, lengthy ambulance waiting times, and ageing insect population.

But what struck me most about my visits this week was the resilience of our NHS staff. Staff committed to people in our county and my city of Gloucester. And what a difference a Labour government is making with more investment in our NHS. Waiting lists locally are already coming down, patients now able to access emergency dental treatment rather than pulling the teeth out a home. We have more midwives, more dentists and new GP contract which will help bring back the family doctor.

That's what we can do in eight months. Imagine the impact we could do if we had 14 years like the party opposite it. And for a personal perspective, I've seen how important this work is. I used to joke on the doorstep that I should be a poster boy for why prevention is better than cure. It won't surprise members the time maybe have a few extra pounds that I could afford to lose. But sadly, the prevention piece came too late for me and I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes earlier this year.

And amassing the treatment I've received since then has been phenomenal. I'm now in the pathway to remission program that is available in Gloucestershire but not across the country that has already brought my blood sugar levels down and tell me to lose 3.5 stone I might add. Thank you very much. And help countless others across Gloucestershire and across the country, and it's across the country, and it's important that as we move to prevention we also look at public health measures around diabetes, and echo the comments made by the previous speaker on the opposite benches.

And I'd also like to thank all of the staff who looked after my little boy last year when he was really sick and make sure that when we are looking at investment in our NHS, we prioritise maternity services and the youngest in our society to make sure they get the healthcare they need. We talked about British values a lot over the last few months in this place and when people asked me about what makes me proud to be British, I point them to our NHS.

A system without comparison in the world which means that everyone can access healthcare regardless of their wealth. I know they are not in their places today, but when reform say that all options are on the table, I'd like the Minister to make clear in her remarks standing against our NHS and the principles of our NHS being there for everyone regardless of their wealth is the opposite of being patriotically. And that their options are not on the table. So in conclusion, I welcome the record investment in our NHS, welcomed the shift from analogue to digital, and from prevention...

Security prevention, and I welcome what the Minister can say in her remarks

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about how we can make sure we're delivering on people's priorities in Gloucester. Echoed the Liberal Democrat

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spokesperson. Thank you. I'd also like to start
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Helen Morgan Portrait Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you. I'd also like to start by thanking the chair of the public accounts committee for bringing this debate and deed for his excellent opening speech. We all know that we've reached a crisis point across the NHS and care sectors with more patients than ever waiting for treatment, and it's not just affecting those who are in need of care and treatment but also those who work tirelessly across the NHS and care sectors who are feeling the full brunt of the crisis. The Conservatives legacy of hour-long waits for ambulances, treatment in cramped hospital corridors, captured in horrifying detail by the dispatches documentary which looked into the hospital it serves my North Shropshire constituents and communities grinding to a halt under the weight of all sorts of different waiting less than backlogs.

We need urgently to move forward. The Secretary of State has repeatedly outlined than need for shift from treatment to prevention and hospitals to community and the Lib Dems support that in our own Dems support that in our own

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Stronger primary care was among us strong recommendations in the report and there has been a great deal of consensus across the House deal of consensus across the House today that we need to take those measured. But I feel these measures measured. But I feel these measures paint a picture of inane NHS that is continuing to pour money into the previous failed model. -- Picture of previous failed model. -- Picture of an NHS. Community care providers and an NHS. Community care providers and primary care providers are wrestling with a huge employer National with a huge employer National Insurance Contribution hike.

We need to look at community services and elective care. We must ask the question when will the objectives of these secretaries to be matched by

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actions? -- The Secretary of State. We will urge the government to go further and faster to address the failings. I will give way. May I share with her my confusion

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May I share with her my confusion The comments from her and the benches opposite that she seemed so benches opposite that she seemed so surprised she has not heard the full solution what this government is going to do with the NHS? It is clear there is going to be shifts and a 10 year plan and a huge amount of reform coming down the line. As this as has seemed to escape the attention of the opposition also

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escaped her attention? We need to urge the government to go further and faster and as a constructive opposition that is what constructive opposition that is what we are urging the government to do. Primary care providers are on their knees, made worse by the National Insurance hike announced in the budget. They cannot meet demand for local appointments as things stand and the constraining factor is often and the constraining factor is often and the constraining factor is often A surgery North Shropshire wants to provide additional services, keep people away from hospital, but the surgery isn't physically big enough.

A local developer has provided land and the council has funding for that building but it cannot be done because the ICB will not pay the nominal rent which everybody agreed to forfeit. It is crazy. I hope the Minister can commit to some sort of solution for the nonsensical situation we find ourselves in. Inability Inability sometimes Inability sometimes to Inability sometimes to get Inability sometimes to get things going, in my constituency it has taken nine months to procure a similar example. It is not just

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about ability to pay but does she agree it is also about procurement? I fundamentally agree. There are lots of instances and I spoke to providers about it recently. I want to come to community pharmacy. I'm concerned about pharmacies at the moment, a key pillar of care in the community, dispensing prescriptions, providing over-the-counter medicine providing over-the-counter medicine and advice and providing pharmacy and advice and providing pharmacy first. But they are closing at an alarming rate. Analysis predicts more than 1,000 will close. 900 by the end of 2027 if the current rate the end of 2027 if the current rate continues.

That is because of a 40% real terms cut in funding since 2015. Community pharmacies are essentially subsidising the NHS by making a loss on many prescription drugs they dispense. They are going to be clobbered in a few weeks, in April, not only by national insurance but increased business rates which will affect High Street retailers. Shamefully they have not even had their funding rate confirmed. The one that ends in And pharmacy first, moving care into the community, has not had funding confirmed beyond the first week of April this year.

In just a few weeks. According to the Association. Will the Minister confirm in her closing remarks, what is the future of pharmacy first? Is there a plan to deliver that service? What states are being taken to keep pharmacies in business? If we want care in the community it is essential to support them. I want to mention dentistry. A number of NHS dentists have fallen by 12.3% since 2019-2020. Many people cannot access a dentist. The government has committed to

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improving this situation. Can the Minister confirm when negotiations for the new contract will begin? Now social care, the crisis that

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Now social care, the crisis that currently faces the social care system is daunting. Not least because of the additional national insurance starting in a couple of insurance starting in a couple of Care organisations launched an unprecedented day of action with thousands of people marching on Westminster to highlight the Westminster to highlight the precarious state of organisations that provide care. The review found people waiting to access social care accounted for 13% of NHS beds. We understand the urgency of tackling social care.

But the cross-party talks which collapsed last week have not started and there is no date for a new meeting. There are no published terms of reference. I think we think 2028 is too late to resolve this problem. Can the government reinstate talks and act now to deal with this crisis? I want to talk about mental health. We have heard there is a fundamental problem in the distribution of resources between mental and physical health. Mental health account for 20% of the disease burden but less than 10% of NHS expenditure.

This is the combination of underspend and inactivity as a treatment gap affecting nearly every family and all communities across the country. By April 2024, about one million people on the waiting list, of which 340,000 were children. My case work is full of children waiting months for diagnosis and treatment. The government has removed the targets for mental health waiting list and I urge them to reinstate them so we have parity between mental and physical health in the service. I am conscious of time.

Can I just recall the asks? To make sure talks start immediately. Do with the problem of the pharmacies. And to mention

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mental health and social care being dealt with in parity. Shadow Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I draw the attention of members to I draw the attention of members to my register of interest as a consultant paediatrician. I congratulate Mike right honourable friend the Member for The Cotswold for securing this important debate on the finances of the NHS. Labour on the finances of the NHS. Labour said they had a plan. A plan to reform and improve the NHS. reform and improve the NHS. Unfortunately it has become clear in a series of consultations on the plan, the 10 year plan, the patient safety review, consultations on the NHS and a commission to transform social care, a few that are in progress but they did not have a plan other than getting to power and then considering what the plan should be.

As has been said, we need improvement in productivity, technology and long-term investment. I completely agree. I could give many examples of wasteful spending. Particularly regarding paperwork and inflexible guidance and procedures. Which are well-meaning but often unhelpful. There is talk of productivity improvement but little specific. I would be grateful if the
15:22
Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
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In closing remarks. What have they done so far? At the Autumn Budget the Chancellor announced the overall NHS funding would increase by 22.6 billion over two years. For this year that is 10.6. The government asks us to welcome the extra money. asks us to welcome the extra money. It sounds great. But is it extra or not? Julian Kelly, the NHS England chief financial officer, told the committee that the proposed 2.8% rise in 2025-26 would cost 3.8 billion.

1.9 billion in operations and deductions for settlement and basic demand growth in the NHS. Members will note this figure adds up to more than the £10.6 billion. With the unions having threatened to strike again for even greater pay awards and the propensity of labour to capitulate to the unions, and it is likely this figure will increase. Can the Minister confirm, will the 10.6 billion they talked about really lead to improved services? Will it merely cover inflation, tax rises and pay rises given by the Labour government to union paymasters? I will give way in a moment.

Let's look further at the tax rises. It is clear the Chancellor had not properly considered the effect of the National Insurance rise in the wider system. The government exempted the NHS. But it does not cover general practice, hospices, charities, many social care providers, including care homes, ambulance charities, opticians, private providers, local pharmacies and other suppliers and contractors to name a view. Let's see what some of them said about the application of the taxes. I will

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give way. I thank the shadow Minister for giving way. I'm sure she will come giving way. I'm sure she will come to this in her speech, but given she has criticised the government for lacking a plan, surely she will now lacking a plan, surely she will now ? How much extra are the Conservatives proposing to put forward for the NHS? How would they

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forward for the NHS? How would they pay for it? Why did they not do that in the last 14 years? The honourable gentleman will see there has been a substantial real terms increase in NHS funding in the

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last 14 years. It cannot be so potentially for this year and that is why I am asking the question. I would like to ask the shadow Minister an easier question. She has rejected the pay deals this rejected the pay deals this government has agreed. To give a proper reward to nurses and doctors. proper reward to nurses and doctors. How much does she think the pay deal should be reduced by to bring it in line with her policy, so if she is opposed to the deal agreed, she must opposed to the deal agreed, she must

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have an alternative? One of the key things about this government deal is they have given in on money without asking for anything in return in terms of productivity. What the government needed to do was agree a pay deal that was sensible, affordable and not talk about money they are giving to the NHS that they are taking away in taxes. Let's see what some of the healthcare providers said about the applications for the National Insurance increase. The Royal College of GPs is warning it will force practices to choose between redundancy and closure.

The hospice sector believes the cost could be £30 million per year. The government has given the hospice sector a capital grant worth 100 million. That is welcome and will improve facilities but if they are empty and cannot be staffed, they will not deliver much in the way of improvement. Air ambulances are also threatened by the rise. With a local service in my constituency, entirely charitably funded, needing to find an extra £70,000 just to pay the National Insurance rises.

The independent pharmacy Association estimates the rising contributions and minimum wage rises will cost more than £12,000 for an average pharmacy per year. Totalling more than 125 million for the whole than 125 million for the whole Association Association warned Association warned pharmacies Association warned pharmacies face Association warned pharmacies face a cliff edge in the beginning of April. With the triple whammy of rising National Insurance, the National Living Wage and business rates all coming at once. What impact will it have on constituent health? The government talk a good talk about bringing healthcare closer to the community.

But actions speak louder than words. Putting extra pressure on local services is not a good way to deliver their aims. The National Insurance rise Trust will add a 900 million burden to the adult social care sector with more costs factored in and the care sector is believed to be facing an additional 2.8 billion bill. This dwarfs the 600 million extra allocated to the local authorities responsible for providing social care. It will have a devastating effect. The amount of care that can be bought by local authorities will go down.

The cost of private care will rise and more people will rely upon the state rather than private sector. The waiting lists will also rise. Many small care providers will have to increase prices, stop accepting patients or go bust and this will affect the hospital sector as people who cannot be discharged and there is not adequate social care for them. The government talks about a new National Care Service but it has only damaged the existing one by hiking the costs through National Insurance rises and other In January, the government announced a deal with private hospitals to try to cut waiting list.

It sounded good to start with and would see private hospitals being paid for each patient treated to incentivise them to treat as many as possible. But it was reported NHS England has capped the amount each hospital can be paid. With the chief executive of the independent healthcare providers network warning this policy will lengthen waiting times. Can the Minister comment on that? Another question on prevention and this is a focus on prevention. When the government announced it would be cutting the budget, the Prime Minister said the UK would continue to play a key humanitarian role in a range of issues such as global health and challenges like vaccination.

I would appreciate clarification from the Minister as to whether the global health budget will be cut or will the cuts be made from the OBR budget in other respects entirely? Workforce is the key asset of the NHS. Yet sickness levels are at about 5.5%. A considerable cost on government and a considerable drag on productivity. They vary across trusts and professions. With less than 2% consistently of consultants sick and almost 8% of ambulance support staff. If these rates can be reduced it would lead to improved productivity and treatment coming out much faster.

What is the Minister doing to look at that and perhaps she could have another perhaps she could have another

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She thinks it would be more or less sickness and ambulance services

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less sickness and ambulance services if they were better or worse paid? Is the honourable gentleman deciding that whether someone becomes ill or not is entirely dependent on whether they get the percentage in their pay. I'm not percentage in their pay. I'm not sure it is. Government promised a lot but since then they have had lot but since then they have had inflation busting pay rises and inflation busting pay rises and mismanaged. At its heart is a classic socialist trick, taking money away from NHS providers with one hand and then expecting praise and they give some of it back.

The public will see straight through it.

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I call the Minister. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.
15:31
Ashley Dalton Portrait Ashley Dalton MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (West Lancashire, Labour)
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I would like to begin by thanking the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, for bringing this debate. As a Public Accounts Committee alum line myself, it is my pleasure that my first outing at debate at the despatch boxes in response to that committee. I would also like to thank all other colleagues for taking part. The number of honourable and right honourable members that have sought to speak today speaks to significant interest in our health and social care services, not only in this house but in the country.

And the wide range of issues raised just goes to show how broad an overarching our NHS and social care services are. I will try to cover as many of the issues as I possibly can, and if I miss anything, I will happily pick up with honourable members afterwards. I will also attempt to cover all honourable members that have spoken, if I find the bits of paper I have written it on. But if I miss you, then please do forgive me.

Because we have had so many contributions, the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the Honourable member for St Ives, the member for Paul, the Honourable member for Sheffield and south-east and many other members have spoken about Social care. One of the key lines that has come through today has been productivity, from the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the honourable member for Salisbury, for Farnham and Bordon and for barking. An prevention and public health has really come through. Something that, as the Minister responsible for those areas I am delighted to discuss.

Again raised by many members. We have also talked about dentistry particularly the honourable member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip. The shifts have been really key, and they have been raised by many many honourable members today. And the honourable before barking talks not only about public health but also the work of local government and the role of ICBs. I would also like to say how great it was to hear the member for Gloucester talk about his pride for the NHS, and to confirm that I can commit that this government will always stand by our NHS.

I will always keep it free at the point of use. Madam Deputy Speaker, in her Autumn Budget, the Chancellor took the necessary decisions to put our NHS on the road to recovery. With more than £22.5 billion increase in day-to-day health spending, and over £3 billion more in the capital budget over this year and next. Thanks to her, we are taking the first steps towards fixing the foundations of our NHS and making it fit for the future. I say to the Shadow Minister that, yes, this will make a difference because it is not just about the money, it is about making the right choices.

I will very briefly.

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I thank the Minister and welcome her to a place. This will be the her to a place. This will be the final middle point I think from this site, we all accept we want to see a site, we all accept we want to see a shift from acute hospital provision through to Social care but when the budget does not reflect that the Chancellor brought forward and that National Insurance rises hit that Social care end of the spectrum, how

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Social care end of the spectrum, how can the public have faith that what she says is anything more than rhetoric? I thank the member for that

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I thank the member for that intervention. And I'm coming to all of that. Since coming into office, the government has made choices. We have ended that resident doctors strike, we have published our elected reform plan will Maximum waiting times from 18 months today to 18 weeks by the end of this Parliament. Investment and reform in a general practice to fix the front door to the NHS and bring back the family doctor. We have started getting waiting lists falling.

We have kept the promise in our manifesto to deliver an extra 2 million appointments in our first year. We actually smashed that target in the first seven months. Madam Deputy Speaker, anybody thinks the Chancellor was wrong to make the necessary decisions and trade-offs she did not explain what they would cut from that list. Because anyone who thinks they could have achieved everything we have done in less than one year without the Autumn Budget is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land. Today we are setting our Supplementary Estimates to the house.

The funding will support the NHS to deliver 40,000 extra elective appointments each week, and make progress on reducing the number of patients that wait longer than 18 weeks from referral to consultant led treatment. I also update the house that we will publish our mental budgets for the next financial year in the spring through

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phase 2 of the spending review. On page 53 of the estimates, she

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On page 53 of the estimates, she will note the decrease to the capital spending. In the capital spending. In the departmental accounts, will that be explained? And can she explain to

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explained? And can she explain to the house how new hospitals day-to- day spending? I thank remember for a contribution and will be coming to contribution and will be coming to that. We have talked about productivity, and this was raised by many members including the chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Several members have raised this. I'm delighted that members across the house including those on the benches opposite, in raising the issue of productivity, have now recognised and accepted the value of the Darzi Report that was commissioned by this government.

We are committed, I will in one moment. We are committed to 80% productivity target by 2025/26. To help achieve this target there is a £2 billion investment in NHS technology, allocated to freeing up staff time, ensuring trusts have got electronic patient records. We have heard a lot about old-fashioned paper. And enhanced cybersecurity measures, improving patient access to services via the NHS app. The current measures have helped productivity data and don't capture all the outcomes and outputs adequately.

To address the accuracy and proactivity measures, NHS England is working with the ONS and the University of York to refine those metrics. And reform is at the heart of our 10 year plan. In terms of capital funding, we are rebuilding our capital starved NHS through £1.6 billion of national capital funding in 2025/26. That will help achieve constitutional standards. The money will help deliver more than 30,000 additional procedures, over one and a quartermillion diagnostic tests as they come online to investment in new surgical hubs and diagnostic scanners.

New beds across the estate, and £70 million to invest in new radiotherapy machines to improve cancer treatment. We have heard questions around the capital shift to revenue, and as has been identified, some of that has been historic needs including capital funding that was identified for technology and New Hospitals Programme. Because of the nature of funding, needed to be defined as revenue. It is still being spent on those programs. The Autumn Budget made a commitment to ban shifting from capital to revenue.

I can confirm that no shifts of that nature has taken place since the Autumn Budget.

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Thank you for giving way. My honourable friend shared with me when the last government put no money into the hospital program, through out the hospital in my constituency, and I want to share with her my delight that the with her my delight that the government has hospital back into the program and is funding the program with a timetable the last government failed to deliver.

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government failed to deliver. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention. Everyone knows the previous government's promise of 40 new hospitals was a fiction. They were not 40, they were not new and many were not even hospitals. But we have put the program on a firm footing with sustainable funding. So all of those projects will actually be delivered. The chair of the select committee, the health and social care Select Committee, the MP for Bristol South, I am more than happy to work with the committee to clarify the funding on NHS providers.

I understand there is already quite a lot of information in the public domain. I am more than happy to have that conversation with her. In terms of financial levers and incentivising intervention, the 10-Year Health Plan is really the driver of all of our shifts, from analogue to digital. From hospital to community, and from sickness to prevention. The 10-Year Health Plan will set out how we achieve the transformational change. As part of this, the plans working groups are looking at how payment mechanisms, funding flows, and contracting will need to change build a health system fit for the future.

In terms of edicts, the government will provide support to departments for additional ones for public sector employees. And commission services are all subject to local negotiation with providers. I want to move on to talking about public health which is my particular interest as well. I agree with the honourable members the importance of public health investment. In 2025/26, we are increasing funding through the public health grant. The 100% retained business rates arrangements for local authorities in Greater Manchester.

Two £23.85 billion. It is a cash increase of over 4% and 3% in real terms. It is a priority for this government to confirm future year allocations as early as possible. And we will be seeking to do that. It is a priority of mine. We also talked a lot about Social care. Luis Casey commands a great respect across parties, government and the NHS and that is why she will be leading the independent commission into adult social as part of a critical first steps towards delivering National Care Service.

She will begin her work in April and drawing on people who need care and their families, staff and politicians are in the public, private, and third sector to contribute and inform those recommendations on how we can

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rebuild adult social. I welcome her to her place and

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I welcome her to her place and congratulate her on her new role. In congratulate her on her new role. In terms of the local national care service and the review, will she reassure me and other members of the house will be a first phase report house will be a first phase report 2026 which will inform the spending review and have action sooner than review and have action sooner than

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the 2028 final report? I thank her four intervention. I can confirm that, as has already been stated, those interim reports will take place with a view to informing the spending review. I wanted to pick up the Liberal Democrat spokesperson raised about the cross-party talks. My right honourable friend the secretary of state wrote to colleagues from all of the UK-wide parties inviting them to joint cross-party talks in February. Not everybody was able to take part in that, a significant number were not.

We think it is very important to have a wide range of views in these talks. So we have taken a decision to reschedule, but we will be making sure that those take place. And we are seeking to reorganise those talks at the earliest opportunity. The intention is very much to go ahead I can confirm that. In terms of pharmacy, we are committed to looking at how we can further expand the role of we can further expand the role of Clinical skills of pharmacists.

We have renewed our consultation with community pharmacists England regarding the funding arrangements for 2025/26 and the year after. I won't be able to say more on that until the consultation has finished. Wrapping up, we are undertaking the largest capital investment in our national health service since Labour was last in office. But if we are to deliver our promises to the British people, we must deliver faster improvement than even the last Labour government achieved. Investment and reform is what we promised before the election, and investment and reform is what we are delivering now.

We will ensure the NHS is there for people when they need it, we will tackle the big killers like cancer and create a fairer Britain where everyone lives well for longer, while making sure every penny of taxpayer money is well spent. And I commend the well spent. And I commend the

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Thank you very much. I shall be
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motion 54. I will give the front We now come to We now come to the We now come to the motion We now come to the motion on We now come to the motion on the We now come to the motion on the Supplementary Estimate for Spending on the Foreign Office. Minister to on the Foreign Office. Minister to move the motion formally. The move the motion formally. The question is as on the order paper. I call Sarah Champion.

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call Sarah Champion. Thank you for selecting this for the bid. It is very timely. I also thank the members for securing this in the name of member and myself. I start this to be bottom of the commitment from the government to increase Defence spending. It is long overdue and much needed but there was no need to finance a decision on where the spending was coming from before the review concluded. It will not surprise the House that I will use this debate to argue that taking all the uplift from the official development is the wrong decision.

The former Defence Secretary was asked whether it is wise to properly fund international development work. He replied, "If you don't find the State Department fully, I have to buy more ammunition." It pains me to say that the Prime Minister is setting this dangerous course for the UK by dangerous course for the UK by dangerous course for the UK by planning to take 40% out of ODA, years risking our national security. Do not my word for it.

There was a speech given by the former chief of general staff who wrote, because Every pound we cut today will cost us more in future operations and if us more in future operations and if you cut aid further to increase Defence it is shortsighted and counter-productive." He added that we are setting ourselves up for greater instability which will require which is pending in the long term and if we cut it, we are forced to deploy resources in areas where we could have targeted development.
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Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion MP (Rotherham, Labour)
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I supreme so to recognise that if we abandon our commitments to the world in this way that we will see greater in this way that we will see greater numbers of people displaced from numbers of people displaced from their own homes as a result of disasters, poverty, war. More people will lose hope and instead look to extreme ideologies for the answer and civil societies will no longer have the skills to hold governments to account. It concerns me greatly, as it should the hothouse, that the government is yet to carry out an government is yet to carry out an assessment of the impact of decisions which are being rushed decisions which are being rushed through without productivity.

I the government to look at cutting ODA assistance. If the 40% reduction in UK it is distributed equally across food programs, there will be nearly 40 million fewer children immunised and 600,000 fewer life save because of the reduction to the fund to fight AIDS, TB and malaria. And fewer still children will receive nutritious meals and assistance through the World Food Programme. I appreciate the Prime Minister has pledged to protect what he deems the most vital areas of spending, garter, Sudan, Ukraine, vaccinations, climate, but, as a powerful recognition letter lays bare, that is sadly delusional.

As my right honourable friend, who knows the reality better than anyone else has written, "It will be impossible to maintain these priorities given the depth of the cuts. The effect will be far greater than presented. It will likely lead to withdrawal from regional banks and reduced commitment to the World Bank with the UK shut out of numerous multilateral bodies and the reduced voice for the UK in the G7, G20, climate negotiations." I will, of course.

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I thank, especially for her work as chair of the International Development Committee, which I sit Development Committee, which I sit on. I met with representatives to on. I met with representatives to hear first-hand about the pivotal work to ensure millions of children work to ensure millions of children worldwide receive vaccines against deadly diseases and event future deadly diseases and event future pandemic. Does she agree with me that we need to make a commitment to the replenishment that we know is under debate.



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As he is well aware, we are doing

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As he is well aware, we are doing an enquiry on value for money and an enquiry on value for money and Gavi is one of the best ways to save money, vaccinating people around the bill. The British public really want bill. The British public really want us to step away from the international stage and lose staff

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power and... Will the honourable member giveaway? I will.

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I will. I thank my honourable friend for giving way because she is making an giving way because she is making an excellent speech and she knows some excellent speech and she knows some of the most vulnerable children in the world include disabled children and the strategy must go a long way to supporting children through healthcare and social protections. She agreed with me that unless we get clear assurances, many millions of disabled children will end up suffering greater loss and there are organisations that Able Tailed that are deeply concerned about the impact these cuts will have on

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disabled children. I thank my honourable friend. She is absolutely right. I am is absolutely right. I am particularly thinking about particularly thinking about children, people with disabilities, people in marginalised communities, it is exemplary. I cannot stand here it is exemplary. I cannot stand here and say continuing the funding is technically possible. It has been technically possible. It has been found that 55% of the British public support the UK giving humanitarian support the UK giving humanitarian and military aid to Ukraine.

More than half the spending is worthwhile if it lists the UK economy and protect national security. Even with the reduced aid budget, provisions must be met moving forward. A scandalous amount of ODA has been misspent. 20% of the entire aid budget has been spent. It is said to decrease slightly this year. Unless these costs are significantly reduced, the UK is set to spend nearly half of the remaining ODA budget on refugee costs by 2037.

This cannot be right. It needs reporting should not be coming out of the ODA budget. Unless we reduce refugee costs, there is no incentive to address pending. The Home Office to address pending. The Home Office is not the only department do this. In some cases, apartments delivering as well as transparently as the FCDO can. Can she comment taking these programs back into FCDO or asking departments to adjust what they are taking from D. There has been an adjustment in financial spending for the current financial year but a large proportion of the increase, almost £500 million, was sent to an investment group, BII, in assuming panic to have the current commitment of 0.5% of commitment.

Don't get me wrong, BII does work investing into businesses and the invest in the long term but are not set up for immediate decisions and should not be expected to. There is an ongoing The ability to borrow against investments and I them to look at this closely. They could look at changing policy and legislation including dental, illicit finance. These actions could have significant impacts on the lives of the most poor in the world and require no expense from the British taxpayer.

Can the Minister comment on things like philanthropic funding which could be used? The estimates are that the FCDO to continue to employ all the experts in development aid in a rapidly developing world. To maintain this expertise is not a luxury but a necessity for the UK to achieve safeguarding of the collective future. Despite the damage done to budgets, the FCDO must prioritise detecting staff who offer much to countries when deployed effectively. My committee and I were with FCDO staff in Scotland handicaps were announced last week and the staff were understandably devastated.

This added to the uncertainty they have faced for the last five years. The best way to retain staff and the international reputation is dealing with these forthcoming spending cuts. Can the Minister describe if there will be a cliff edge in 2037? A commitment to the deposit will be 0.4% or more and 2036-27 would be hugely reassuring us with an assurance will be no cuts in the spending review for this financial year. In making tough decisions about what to cut and what to save, I would urge risk management assessment be done in advance and presented to the House.

The 2020 one round of cuts saw women and girls funding cut from 26% from the peak in 2017. Let us never do that again. From 2023, the 10th largest spender in the UK was cut. Cut to 0.3% would leave us in the 25th place. This is not acceptable for a nation with such a proud history and the government that is placing itself as a leader in international stage rapidly. I will finish with the powerful words from a speech delivered on July 13, 2021, when the Conservative government was decision to reduce its spending from 0.7% to 0.5% was confirmed.

The House was told, "Cutting it will have a big impact on the economy and we all development aid reduces conflict, disease, people fleeing their homes. It is a false economy to pretend this is without consequence. The Speaker continued, because The overseas budget goes beyond that and it also helps to build a more stable growth and keeps us more safe in the UK and this will reduce UK influence when it is needed most and, of course, it risks leaving a vacuum that China and Russia will fill." That speaker was the then-Leader of the Opposition mac making the case against cuts and his words are as true now as they were then.

Can I urge the Minister and the government to listen to the words of the then Leader of the Opposition, the now Leader of the Opposition, the now

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I need to fit in another debate

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I need to fit in another debate before 7 o'clock so colleagues will be disappointed that they won't be called. Please judge that as you called. Please judge that as you may. We are going to put a speaking

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limit which is four minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the

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It is a pleasure to follow the brave and principled speech which the leader of the Select Committee has just made. Of course the has just made. Of course the government is actually right to increase defence expenditure now. President Trump is right too and saying that Europe has shouldered the burden against Russian imperial expansion. But development should be part of that very strategy. Development, defence, and diplomacy are intertwined. I remind everyone that what the development but it does is to tackle conflict and help build better societies and build prosperity.

Help tackle migration, tackle disease, medicines, education, vaccinations, growth,
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Andrew Mitchell Portrait Rt Hon Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)
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jobs, BII, which is an outstanding jobs, BII, which is an outstanding example of British success in terms of development. Transversely, accountability, anticorruption. And of course all independently verified of course all independently verified by the ICAI the Independent by the ICAI the Independent Commission for Aid Impact which is Commission for Aid Impact which is the taxpayers friend. That is what International Development does. It ought to be unanswerable that it is ought to be unanswerable that it is of vital importance.

The cuts to 0.5% were terrible but we did manage to find a number of ingenious ways of augmenting that money through guarantees, through cofinancing, through insurance, through the use of SDRs. But the reduction to 0.3% will destroy any incipient recovery. And as the old lady said, who will fill the gap? It is China and Russia. Of course it will be music to the ears of the many terrorist organisations that exist across Sub-Saharan Africa. And the failure to do some of the things which the honourable lady set out so clearly will result in that clarion call of that terrorist being heard.

And of course this stopping and starting development is very bad value for money for taxpayers. I know foreign office ministers will have fought against this terrible decision, and it gives me a chance to pay tribute once again to that Foreign Office and the civil servants and diplomats who work there. It is the finest diplomatic corps in the world. I also want to pay tribute to the right honourable lady from Oxford East, whose principled resignation letter, brave, will serve her very well.

We all know that this is an example of the ironfisted of number 10 conquering extremely good arguments that would have been put up by the foreign office. Cynical, low hanging fruit, and in my view, entirely wrong. Many are horrified to see a Labour government behaving in this way. And bludgeoning development already badly damaged by the abolition of defeat and the cuts in the last Parliament. I ask colleagues on the opposition benches to make a principled decision about this, to make sure their voices are heard in government.

To imagine what those prime ministers who really drove forward International Development, the course of development, turning Britain into a developer and superpower. Prime minister Blair, prime minister Brown, by Mr Cameron, Prime Minister may, these were four premiers who drove this cause and did so much good, saving so many lives. I hope members opposite will exert influence with the government to explain to the government why this is the wrong decision at the wrong time and must be reversed.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. Since the election of this Labour
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Emily Thornberry Portrait Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)
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best, we are respected and influential global player. We have many things to advantage, we are the many things to advantage, we are the bridge between the US and Europe, we have a place in the Security Council, and our security services and defence are respected. Under and defence are respected. Under recent governments must be said we lost our way. Fighting amongst ourselves and threatening to break international law. Under this international law. Under this government we are taking the lead again. So the question is, will be step up to this challenge which we step up to this challenge which we are more than capable of doing, but we can't just do it on a postage stamp.

Alongside a pivot to hard power, the Prime Minister are set up his priorities for the reduced aid budget. Also, Sudan, Ukraine. There is no question we need investment in hard power to achieve peace. But if we abandon Britain's soft power strength we cannot secure it. In Ukraine, political and financial investment in military might are key to the ending of the war in Ukraine, but when we reach a ceasefire, there will be shockwaves across Eastern Europe must be absorbed. There are many ways in which Russia will continue on the offensive and it is also about misinformation, it is about telling lies, trying to influence people were not telling the truth.

The best way to counter that is to tell the truth. And how will we tell the truth? What we could do is you can rely on the BBC World Service which is internationally respected and recognised. There is nothing like the BBC World Service. It may only spend £137 million given for the foreign office which is roughly 80% of that coming from ODA. Russia and China combined spent more than £8 billion each year on their services, on their state media. When we vacate the airwaves which we have done, Russia moves in and takes over the same frequency.

If we lose it...

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I'm grateful to her and endorse what she says about the BBC World Service. It used to be the case that there was a ring fenced grant for the BBC monitoring service as well. the BBC monitoring service as well. But that now just falls on the BBC general income and expenditure. Does she agree with me that the monitoring service performs an equally crucial role to the World Service in terms of open source

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information? I think the role has changed given the rise of the internet. If given the rise of the internet. If we lose it, will this be the moment not only that we abandoned Africa to the Chinese but abandoned our role of speaking the truth? The second priority for the budget is Gaza. I visited Jordan last week with the select committee. Jordan relies on US and UK eight and it has absorbed The continued stability is fundamental to a lasting peace in the region cannot be guaranteed if we no longer have a humanitarian budget to spend on it? The third priority for the Prime Minister, Sudan.

We are the pen holder and facing a situation where Russia has secured a Red Sea base that it has long wanted. The situation reminds me of words given by Lord Dannatt, the former chief of general staff. Every pound we spend on development today risks costing us more in future military operations. Soft power is not just nice to have, it is the core to Peace and Security Forum I've looked into the numbers following the latest cuts and after taking into account the ODA spent on asylum costs as well as our commitments, we only have about £1 billion left to spend on overseas aid by the foreign office will stop is that really going to be enough even to take those three priorities and spend money on that? I am concerned these ODA cuts won't be the last of the challenges.

There are also rules that the foreign office will be expected cuts of between 2% and 11%. In that scenario, buildings, will embassies shrink? I am concerned about the British Council which only receives 20% of its count full funding from the FCDO. I trust that there will be an enormous amount of work being done to the details of this but we have not heard anything more than aspiration at the moment as to where the other funding will come from. I fear that we may be looking back at this time and say to ourselves, this is when Britain left the world.

And yet, it really should be the time that we are able to say Britain is back, and we are back as a force for good.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. Let me begin by saying that the decision by the government to
16:10
Aphra Brandreth Portrait Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
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decision by the government to increase defence spending, funded in the short-term by a cut in the ODA budget is the right one given that current global context. This is an immediate solution which was necessary to bolster our defence budget, to send a clear message to our allies and adversaries alike. Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine has brought a state of war back to Europe. The security challenges we face as a country do not stop with Russia. Iran continues to be a destabilising influence in the Middle East and globally, and China's growing influence demands our attention.

The rules-based international order which the UK proudly defends is under threat from proudly defends is under threat from many sides. A strong foreign policy starts with hard power, that is why I support the Prime Minister's decision to reallocate ODA to the defence budget. I agreed with Leader of the Opposition when she called for this in advance of the announcement. It is important that we respond to the challenges of the day and have a well-equipped and well-trained and well supported armed forces.

Our adversaries need to know we have a credible deterrence, and our allies need to be able to look to us as a leader in Europe on defence. It is clear that we are living in a time of mounting geopolitical tensions, and without a credible foreign policy strategy, those driving global instability will continue to gain ground. A successful long-term foreign policy strategy must recognise that hard and soft power are inseparable. As has been referred to earlier, it was has been referred to earlier, it was the retired US general, the former defence general James Mattis who said if you don't fund the State Department fully, I need to buy more ammunition ultimately.

These are exceptional times. But as turbidity returns to Europe, I would urge the FCDO to prioritise restoring a strong ODA budget. It is critical that if the ODA budget is to be spent on defence in the immediate term, that money is spent directly on enhancing our national security and strengthening our Armed Forces. And not spent on government foolhardy decision to cede British sovereignty over the Chagos Islands to Mauritius. A deal which is likely to cost the British taxpayer billions of pounds, all at the expense of our security and strategic interests.

With a substantially reduced ODA budget, it is critical that it is spent effectively. It cannot be right that one third of the Overseas Development Assistance budget is spent here in the UK on supporting refugees and asylum seekers. It is clear that we need to rethink where our priorities for the remaining ODA live. One important area of ODA funding which the Foreign Affairs Committee have been investigating as part of our inquiry into soft power is the BBC World Service.

With unreliable sources seeking to undermine our values, the World Service is on the frontline. So I would encourage the FCDO to continue supporting it, especially as new challenges and information dissemination arise. The consequences of disinformation gaining traction are severe. And we must safeguard this key asset in our soft power arsenal. The lines between hard and soft power are increasingly blurred. Yet they must complement each other to be effective. It was necessary to divert funding to meet security challenges.

Now the FCDO must rethink how to preserve our soft power, tackle urgent issues like disinformation, and ensure British taxpayers money spent overseas serves our national interests. Above

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all we must use these resources to expand our global influence and enhance our security in the face of evolving challenges. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.
16:14
Uma Kumaran Portrait Uma Kumaran MP (Stratford and Bow, Labour)
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank the Foreign Affairs Committee and the International development committee for their support and the honourable for their support and the honourable Member for Rotherham for securing this debate. Late last year at the Foreign Affairs Committee heard evidence from the Foreign Secretary and the now former permanent undersecretary. It was a valuable opportunity for committee members to hear, in the words of the Philip Barton, about the tough choices that have been agreed and will continue to have to be made.

Tough choices on our spending, on the aid budget, on investment spending and on our soft power resources. Tough choices are not new. But in these volatile times, when our soft power matters more than ever, they can have seismic impact. In 2011 under the coalition government, the BBC World Service had to eliminate five language services due to cuts of £46 million each year. This included the entire BBC news service in North Macedonia. Coalition cuts to grants funding and the foreign office meant this trusted service with extensive reach, one in every eight Macedonians listens to it, had to be closed.

At the time the country was attempting to join NATO. Russia was opposed. Since this Macedonia has been subject to a decade-long propaganda campaign from Russia. It has spread fake news long covid, amplified regional tensions and demonise NATO and European allies. In the past years, the UK has deployed military experts in disinformation to counter malign The example of north Macedonia shows we cannot risk the fracture. BBC World Service is trusted globally and in neglecting our self while the this information is does not seem like the right thing to do.

The absence of BBC World Service, as alluded to by the chairman, allows alluded to by the chairman, allows others to step in. There are real dangers if we allow propaganda to go unchallenged. It has been described as a Toon Army of bad actors. More conservative cuts caused BBC Arabic to stop broadcasting and the same frequency was taken over by Russia Today. The frequency was essentially Russian propaganda. Russia is investing in this information to target Arabic-speaking audiences and create a false pretence for its invasion of Ukraine.

This information has real-world information has real-world , hostile states step in. They are pumping in billions of pounds because they know what is at stake, the battle for the truth. Funding for the World Service must consider the impact on national security of this information on the world. This is just one example that demonstrates that national defence and spending overseas are both vital for the long-term security of this mission. I've been pleased to see this government's commitment to BBC World Service grant funding reflected in the estimate.

We know that there are tough choices to be made and that there are those wishing to do harm to Britain and we know the defence of the country in an ever more dangerous fault is essential and we must put's defences first. Despite this, there is a firm commitment from the government to prioritise programs and Ukraine and Gaza. There are many populations to be taken into account but the impartial journalism of BBC World Service as an antidote to this information.

I would strongly urge ministers to ensure the funding take into account the...

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Order.
16:18
Edward Morello Portrait Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
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Order. De Foreign, Commonwealth And Development Office plays a vital role around the world by upholding Britain's diplomatic presence and upholding Britain's dogs interest and that struck by the integrity of the people we are fortunate to have working on our behalf of the bill. Even as we face increasing instability, transactional diplomacy, and Watson multiple ridges, financial pressure on the Department is testing our ability to play the role Britain should be playing in the world. For over a playing in the world.

For over a decade, the maintenance of the FCDO overseas, a state which includes 6000 properties across 180 countries, has been funded through the sale of assets. This is not sustainable and the reality is that it no more silverware left to sell. it no more silverware left to sell. Giving evidence to the Select Committee, it was acknowledged the current funding structure will not work for much longer. The cost of essential maintenance is estimated to be £250 billion a year and that figure is rising.

The mixture, the ability to draw down from since our previous asset sales will disappear completely. Unless the Treasury allows for additional cost, the cuts will be met elsewhere. This issue goes beyond bricks and mortar. The overseas presence of the UK is a direct reflection of our diplomatic standing in soft. You cannot expect people to check your British interest when they need investment. The Foreign Secretary highlighted the condition of our state into as a concern. The government must set out an alternative law which does not rely on a fire sale of national assets.

We must address it deeply concerning cuts to ODA. The UK has long been a leader in international aid and the government's decision to reduce our budget for it risks delivering our commitments to the most vulnerable in the world. The UK most vulnerable in the world. The UK will rightly prioritise Ukraine, Gaza, finance, global health, but with a shrinking budget, that will be difficult. I recognise difficult choices must be made to stand firmly with allies in Ukraine during this difficult time. Our support for the Ukrainian people must be strong and unwavering.

It is a sad indictment of the current state of global affairs that in a war between the West and Russia the first to withdraw from the fight was the US. It is more vital we increase Defence spending to ensure our allies around the world know that they can continue to rely on Britain in this increasingly unstable world but the answer is not to cut ODA. The Foreign Secretary will not discuss stepping back from development aid. This would severely limit our ability to counter the lane influences and counter influence.

This would leave a vacuum for Russia and China to fill. I urge the

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government to... Of course I will. I thank him for giving me. I thought it was worth reflecting on thought it was worth reflecting on the fact UK army personnel, those the fact UK army personnel, those cuts started during the time when the Liberal Democrats were in Opposition and he talked about the Opposition and he talked about the party regretting decisions the government so I asked him if he government so I asked him if he regrets the decision to cut from 2010 onwards?

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2010 onwards? I will not waste time nitpicking over the past. It is not the way to go forward. I urge the government to look at proposals to fund much- needed uplift in Defence spending, not by cutting vital overseas development aid but by reversing the tax cuts for banks and by taxing the social media companies that are even now profiting from spreading false information on behalf of our enemies. We must have a stable model for the FCDO and have that assures diplomats have the resources that they need to represent Britain effectively.

Finding a pathway to adjust is in Ukraine, a workable solution of Palestine, security, united approach to the climate crisis and the many other issues we face in the world and in the face of the US administration seemingly intent on joining malign states like Russia and Iran in rejecting international norms requires UK to be centre stage international relations. Having a Foreign Office able to project British influence has never been more important and I urge the government to set out a clear path on maintaining diplomatic treatments in this increasingly uncertain world to ensure Britain does not become a random country and continues to play a historic role in global affairs.



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I want to start by recognising
16:23
David Taylor Portrait David Taylor MP (Hemel Hempstead, Labour)
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I want to start by recognising the urgent need to increase Defence the urgent need to increase Defence spending. I went to Ukraine for a week in the recess and it is an existential crisis and if you create false, I am convinced the Baltic states will be next in the vein -- Lane upstate of Putin. I do not think we will get there by cutting aid. Prior to coming to this House, I spent my career in international development and I had the privilege of serving a previous Prime Minister in this area.

I want to offer my expertise to to try to find a way through this I want to recognise that across House, particularly on our benches, they are are other people like myself who have expertise in development and we offer ourselves to the government to try to find ways in which we can ensure we can make the best of this situation. The first point I want to make it about frontloading multilateral can sento 2026. We know that the ODA budget is going to go that the ODA budget is going to go down from 2037 to 0.3% and be bullied by frontloading some multilateral commitments into the fund as the one we can get round the issue of a cliff edge to ensure we are helping the most amount of people for the largest amount of time.

I know that there are some discussions about the potentially going down in 2026 and I would urge the government to look at other options to keep spending at 0.5% for as long as possible. The second point, I want to refer to the comments the honourable member for made about asylum costs and we have made about asylum costs and we have to look at that and make sure we are sure every penny that is being spent in the UK as we expect the most vulnerable and the government could commit to project reductions in refugee costs with any overspend from these levels funded from outside the budget and any underspend provided to the FCDO as additional resources.

The second point I will not talk about file because the honourable member for Kensington and Bayswater has done a lot of advocacy on this and that is around Chelsea and that it the £2.5 billion and the sooner we can get that into humanitarian aid, the better, because in theory that should free up ODA money to go to other situations around the world. The final point I want to make is that we have two focused time and effort into alternative forms of the expanding and my honourable friend, in particular in his role as the chairman of the NP group on the role bank has some fantastic ideas on how to draw on things such as special rights and other colleagues are working on things like that relief.



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-- That debt. On alternatives, there is a

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On alternatives, there is a dichotomy between Defence and audio there are things like conflict, there are things like conflict, famine, pandemics, we can utilise the approach to come in and deliver that as well as utilising that as well as utilising traditional ODA. Speak among the honourable member makes a good point and I want to carry on with a few other suggestions that we have. With regard to international investments, I'm not here to criticise the work that is being done but the point of the ODA first and foremost is to help people in extreme poverty first and there has been a track record when the BII has not provided that and they should look at ways in which we can make the calculations and BII additional to the 0.3%.

The justification could be that the BII makes capital investments which are ultimately on the balance sheet and this does not towards the budget deficit and therefore I think that could be one way that we could ensure justification of the government fiscal rules. I have got 30 seconds left and so I will and where I started. Other people have made points about how aid is in national interest and for me this has been about how we can benefit another human being.

Because where we are part as an accident. I am privileged to live and what I consider to be the best country in the world but many are not everything that can be done to support the most vulnerable in the world must be done.

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The labour government after all it said during years in opposition it said during years in opposition has decided to take away essential life-saving overseas aid from the poorest people in the planet is poorest people in the planet is truly astonishing and utterly truly astonishing and utterly shameful. because they know that removing this overseas it would have removing this overseas it would have removing this overseas it would have sitting consequences news people go unvaccinated and millions of girls will go on educated and projects set up to help communities recover and protect themselves from climate change will come to an end.

There is no running away from the fact that millions of people, mainly children, will die or have their lives permanently changed as a result of this decision and neither can they
16:30
Brendan O'Hara Portrait Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)
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see from the fact that this was a premeditated political decision premeditated political decision That prime minister has tried That prime minister has tried shamefully to frame this debate as an either or. We are the spend the an either or. We are the spend the money on defence we spend it on overseas aid. It is palpably not overseas aid. It is palpably not true. Indeed it would be laughably disingenuous were it not so serious. disingenuous were it not so serious.

If, and I agree that we are, heading into uncharted waters in terms of European security and defence, then the government needs to rip up self-imposed fiscal rules and have an honest conversation with the public about what must be done. Explain to the public that with an emboldened Putin, and America no longer a trustworthy or reliable ally, that we in Europe have to look after and fend for ourselves. And that that will mean tough choices. This is morally reprehensible.

Cutting overseas aid, they know will make us less secure. And as the honourable member for Rotherham said, if they need convincing, read the Prime Minister's speech from July 13 from July 13, 2021. He lays it outline by line. It is an excellent speech. You should read it. I just wish he had meant it. Absolutely no one believes that we can make ourselves safer and more secure by making the world's poorest even poorer.

When he announced this decision to increase defence spending by cutting overseas aid, the Prime Minister attempted to justify it, saying it could only be funded through hard choices. And that this for him was a painful and difficult decision. It is not nearly as painful or as difficult as it is going to be for millions of impoverished children don't know where their next meal is coming from. Or for girls not knowing the next time they will be able to go to school, or wondering why their siblings are dying of preventable diseases because they have not been vaccinated, or wondering where their father has gone and they have gone to Europe to try to find work.

Prime minister, save me your crocodile tears about this being a difficult decision. This was not a difficult

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decision, this was an easy option. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I want to begin by declaring that I am the chair of the Westminster foundation for democracy, an organisation that has done organisation that has done incredible work around the world and is partially funded by the FCDO. The is partially funded by the FCDO. The Foreign Secretary was right last week when he said that it is about week when he said that it is about being clear what our values are.

The reality is that alongside the military and security gap left by
16:33
Yasmin Qureshi Portrait Yasmin Qureshi MP (Bolton South and Walkden, Labour)
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military and security gap left by the US, we must also fill the gap support for accountability, inclusion, and the rule of law. This is about UK security and prosperity. Our ODA budget supports stability and alliances critical to our national interest. Yes we are losing the battle for hearts and minds in many parts of the world whilst our rivals help friendly rulers, and silence opposition. If we do not stack up, others will fill the vacuum.

WFP is part of the answer. It operates in 50 countries, strengthening democracy and the rule of law. FCDO grants this year was about £8.5 million. With additional country specific grants, we maximise impact globally. But funding cuts impact globally. But funding cuts are already hitting us. The bending of £8.5 million in 2026/27 won't found issues on public debt, climate, electoral integrity and issues of political leadership. It's reached the significant in that 5000+ participants, half of them women, with engagement from over 1600 parliamentarians, 2400 parliamentary staff, and 1700 political party officials.

This work delivers results. Anticorruption reforms, improved rule of law, climate legislation scrutiny, and the strongest UK relationship with Democratic leaders. But inflation could leave a funding gap of over half £1 million equivalent to 70% of the WFP's work in the Indo-Pacific. We cannot afford to let this happen. Investing democracy is investing in the UK security and prosperity in global influence. With so many bad actors now in the world, and with the constant onslaught on democracies across the world, it is so important that the work Westminster foundation for democracy does is vital and should be protected.



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I share the horror, the outrage, the deep deep disappointment and disillusionment of so many in this house across so many parties and indeed across the country at this indeed across the country at this terribly shortsighted counter- productive decision by the productive decision by the government to fund greater investment in defence, through slashing the development budget. I know, like many here, how important the development budget is spent the development budget is spent practically my entire career before I came to this place working in that field, like so many on these benches.

I have seen it. Face-to- face. I have seen it on the ground. I know investing in health, education, nutrition, helps increase human security for the long term. I know investing in conflict resolution, peace building, democracy support, women and girls
16:36
Ellie Chowns Portrait Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)
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rights, those things build human security globally and make the world security globally and make the world and us more secure. More secure the long-term and indeed in the short to long-term and indeed in the short to medium term. That is why it is so impossible to understand why the government has taken this incredibly counter-productive decision, the three D's of defence, diplomacy, development are united. You cannot development are united. You cannot increase one slashing another. It is unbelievable that this decision has been made because it is so unnecessary.

A member on the opposite benches talked earlier about needing to send a clear message, what is the message that has been sent and follows in the slipstream of President Trump dismantling US KID? It is the wrong message. Members on the other benches have talked about tough choices. It is a wrong choice. Because there is an alternative. We did not have to fund this investment on the backs of the poorest and the most marginalised. There are other choices available to us.

We should ask those with the broadest shoulders to bear the burden of increased investment in defence and security. Indeed our neighbours in France are doing exactly that, looking at wealth taxes. So I hope the Minister will explain in his summing up, why is it that the government has decided to fund investment in defence by undermining diplomacy and development, by slashing the aid budget, leaving us all more insecure in the long run?

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. As a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, we have seen and heard Committee, we have seen and heard from many FCDO representatives the important work the department does and how essential resources are to and how essential resources are to being able to execute that work effectively. The world is witnessing
16:39
Abtisam Mohamed Portrait Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)
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effectively. The world is witnessing a watershed moment unfolding before our very eyes. The world order is visibly the process of being challenged and transforming all aspects of organised human life. It provides an immensely challenging environment for global policy, from the war in Sudan, Gaza and Ukraine, to concerns about climate change. Last week the prime minister demonstrated strong leadership and reinforced that we do have a strong presence in the global arena. An highlighted that we must continue to remain actively engaged and agile enough foreign policy.

The Prime Minister's commitment to increased defence spending in the light of the volatility is the right one. But whilst I recognise that defence spending is important, so is International Development. Particularly in relation to the diplomatic soft powers in the UK. As we navigate this change and unpredictable global power dynamics, international development is an area of our historical strength. UK eight makes the world safer and saves lives. Cutting money from countries that need it most will add insecurity. And a former head of the British Army said cutting aid risks making Britain weaker not stronger.

Well targeted aid events conflict and reduces the burden on our Armed Forces in the long run. Analysis from a campaign supports this. The evidence demonstrates that for every 80p spent on activities, this can avert spending of up to £80 on future conflicts. Cutting the aid budget will undercut our ability to build global partnerships and alliances. When the UK countries to adjust to climate change, to grow, and to prosper, we build relationships and influence. When countries like us withdraw, China and Russia stand ready to step in.

If I may would like to come onto the impact that these cuts have on a specific group, and girls across the world. As we celebrate International Women's Day later this week, it is critical that we stand up for protecting gender equality. This includes improving access to education, maternal healthcare, malnutrition, preventing a response to gender-based violence and combating FGM. When ODA is reduced we know that women's equality programs are the first to be cut. When the cut was implanted in 2021, 41% of women and girls initiatives were the first to be lost.

When governments take action to close gaps and eliminate barriers for women and girls, to realise their rights, to live safely and to learn equally, we create safer, healthier, wealthier societies. The U.K.'s leadership in international has long been a source of national pride and global respect. We should not now head in the opposite direction. If we are seeing the decline in aid to support the world's most Honourable communities, the government could show serious ambition to reform the global economy. This could include tackling the broken global debt system, to enable those countries most in need to emerge from poverty.

This can be achieved by fixing global debt developing countries by compelling private lenders operating in the City of London to cooperate in debt relief negotiations.

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It is a particular pleasure to

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It is a particular pleasure to follow the chair and indeed fellow members of the Foreign Affairs
16:42
John Whittingdale Portrait Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)
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Select Committee. Let me start by making clear that I shall we support the increase in defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. I fear it may not be enough we will have to spend more if we are to maintain our security against the threat which is now clear. I have therefore accepted that part of the funding of that needs to come from ODA, although I feel the pay, both the chair of the International Development Association and my honourable Friend from Sutton Coldfield.

It makes it even harder to swallow the £9 billion bill which you are facing pay for maintaining the base on the Chagos Islands. But I do want to focus specifically on soft power, and welcome the establishment within the FCDO of that soft power counsel. It is very important that strengthening hard power should not be at the expense of Britain's soft power. A number of members have already talked about the BBC World Service. It is one of our great assets, and it was very welcome that the government in the budget increased the government's contribution by £32 billion.

It was concerning that the BBC have recently announced a reduction in their contribution for the loss of 130 jobs. While all 42 language services are being maintained, will service Defence Committee has already pointed out the damage that some of those reductions will do with the loss of regional editors, with science coverage, with business programs. I am particularly concerned about the letter that the chair of a committee received a few days ago from the Director-General in which she says "In the last few days we have been asked to prepare for further engagement with the FCDO on the impact of the reduction in overseas spending.

" I would like to minister to assure us that there will be no reduction in the foreign office funding of the BBC World Service. And indeed, I hope you will give serious consideration to the BBC's request that the government should consider the longer term taking on the full funding of the World Service. We have also heard in the committee from the British Council, another aspect of soft power, where it is absurd that the loan given to them of £250 million has to be renewed each year, creating huge uncertainty looking forward.

I would hope the solution can be found to put that onto the long-term basis. But I want to finish by referring to a particular issue that is of huge concern to me and many others about media freedom. The government has a very good record, both this government and the previous one, for supporting media freedom around the world. We set up the global media coalition. The Minister will know that media freedom is under huge threat. I urge the government to can sinew to press the case of Jimmy Lai, a British Citizenship Bill and in Hong Kong.

And of a British city imprisoned in Egypt. But he will know that in Ukraine, 97 journalists have been killed since 24th of February 2022. 12 whilst on duty. The most recent 12 whilst on duty. The most recent withdrawal of funding from USAID will put at risk over half the media outlets that are reporting what is happening to people in Ukraine. The Minister can provide support to Minister can provide support to
16:46
Blair McDougall Portrait Blair McDougall MP (East Renfrewshire, Labour)
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It is appropriate we have such a distinguished internationalist in the chair for this debate. This is not getting me any extra time. Can I say I recognised the difficult decisions the government has to make by five or we do not fall into believing that moral preferences have to be in our strategic interest but I recognise the government are making budgetary decisions in response to world events that are happening every day. I represent many of the workers from East Kilbride.

I worked myself delivering and I do not want to reiterate what others have said living for the international development budget but I want to challenge the government on one thing. What is now, still be development superpower, what is the offer to the Global South? We know what Russia's offer is. It is not for gold. We will come and kill your enemies with mercenaries and take precious minerals. For China, it is infrastructure in return for debt that keeps you in their power.

We cannot offer violence and cannot demand subservience but for us it is values and values need vehicles to be projected and I want to mention two of those in the time I have got. I add my voice to that of other members in defence of the BBC. Others have spoken about how development helps to save money in Defence. It is also the other way around. If we need an example of that, look at Afghanistan. When we left Afghanistan, we left behind BBC World Service and it is now the only broadcaster in the country which is still there, saying to those people we have not abandoned them.

The cuts are very deep cuts to the World Service which I hope we will not see. The second thing I want to plead for is that as we are standing here today, the Democratic infrastructure Bridge supports dissident Democrats around the world, the people I worked with, is being dismantled because of Elon Musk's vandalism. Some of the most extraordinary people I have ever met are being abandoned.

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I want to congratulate the honourable member for his contribution. Will he paid tribute contribution. Will he paid tribute to those who work with the Conflict Stabilisation Fund which is particularly important in the areas he has touched on?

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he has touched on? I am happy to do so. The honourable gentleman and I worked honourable gentleman and I worked closely together on Georgia and the, closely together on Georgia and the, for the cost of a single storm SL, we are on the 96 of huge protests of the backyard of Vladimir Putin. What we can triage and try to look at places like Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, the risk of where a small amount of money makes a huge amount of strategic difference.

If investing in arms lows are different, we must remember we have to invest in the reasons why we have to fight in the first place. The fundamental because of the authoritarians who we are now in an unspoken war with is the same. Every act of brutality from them is a confection of their weakness. The eagle that -- they will know that if people are free to choose, they would not use that form of governance and all the offer is corruption and brutality against them.

In that global fight, they will choose to be on our side but we need the resources to make that case every day around the world with confidence.

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Like everyone in this House, I stand in full solidarity with
16:51
Chris Law Portrait Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)
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stand in full solidarity with Ukraine and recognise the threat caused by hostile actors like Putin and recognise Defence spending must increase but the decision to read the development budget does not increase security but does the opposite. Decreasing the budget is folly and undermines efforts for justice, peace, security. The Prime Minister knows this. He stood and criticised Boris Johnson and the previous government mandate made the first cut and made the point that we built the reputation with the new approach based on maintaining this partnership.

We agree on that. He has made a U-turn on his promise cuts even further than the Conservatives. This will affect hundreds of thousands of people and have a devastating effect on millions of the most vulnerable and marginalised. Children will go hungry and mistaken life-saving operations die as a result. Girls will lose access to education, family planning, reproductive health clinics and as a consequence be forced into early marriage and have the increased risk of gender-based violence and refugees will lose vital support services and parental support services will be disposed once again.

The Prime Minister has reneged on his promises and reneged on his promises and abandoned his duty and has done so without any impact assessment whatsoever. He has done so with callous disregard for the lives of others throughout the world. It does not have to be like this. In 2023, Germany, G7 ally, spent 0.7% and others such as the Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, spent greater percentages than the UK. We all face the same thread. Why is the UK the only one cutting back? I look forward to the response.

The Prime Minister is once again sitting to please resident from and follow to please resident from and follow the shortsighted voices who believe that people simply do not matter and our actions abroad have. It is wrong. The role of the UK is built on hard power, star power, the policy. As a former member of the International development committee, I've travelled around the world and seen the devastating impact since he first cut on ODA and I've heard how trust in the UK has been eroded and have heard how countries are increasingly turning to Russia and China to fill the void in the absence of the UK.

The threats that we face are interconnected and disregard international borders. We have faced a pandemic and we will encounter more. We are in the midst of a climate emergency that is not going away. We have experienced the war in Europe and the challenge to the system. There should be an Albums but this government are following in the footsteps of the Conservatives who use COVID as an excuse and they are stepping away when they should be stepping up. This mammoth must stop. All of us must come together and find another route that is the national interest because that simply cannot come to pass without a fight.



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I thank the Select Committee for securing the bid. 20 years ago, the words of Nelson Mandela rang around the world when he said as long as
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Alice Macdonald Portrait Alice Macdonald MP (Norwich North, Labour )
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the world when he said as long as poverty, injustice recess, none of us can truly. I hope we remember these words as we continue this conversation. I welcome the uplift in Defence spending but as someone who has campaigned and worked in international for years, this decision is people. The Prime Minister himself acknowledged that. I think the women I met refugee camp you finally got some safety after years of uncertainty. I think of the children being vaccinated against life-threatening diseases.

I think of the response to the Ebola crisis which protected all of us. I think of development work not only as life-saving but a form of international insurance for all of us. UK it is around one pence in each pound and it is to tackle disease, conflict, increase. I wheel that because many constituents have looked to me and urged me to come and speak today but I think we would get far less emails about aid that other things and there are difficult choices have to be made and we have to continue to make the case for aid, both in its own right and for our address.

We have to focus on a few key things. The timeline is key and I hope the Minister will respond to that. Can we expect 0.5% next year and the year after? That could be millions of £millions of lives. We have to make sure when we make those decisions, and I would not like to be in the shoes of the Minister, that the House is updated on the criteria being used is it bilateral versus unilateral? Is it this program that programmed Niger as my honourable friend for Hemel Hempstead and the length there is need to work constructively on that.

The UK legislation sets out to consider that it is likely to commit to ending poverty and also the focus on women and girls is vital. I pack her because for many NGOs including UNICEF to make sure a new commitment to target with 20% of bilateral ODA on gender equality and I hope the Minister can respond to those comments. I echo the points on getting the amount of money spent in this country on refugee cost. It is unacceptable that it is 20% of the budget of the government is committed to bringing down the spending but consider we can do that and with a clear commitment that will go back to the aid budget is really vital.

I hope she can update on the conversation with the Home Office on this. This is Treasury, Home Office, development. We have to make sure it is a conversation across the whole house. We must also leverage other forms of financing and I will mention that. We have a lot on this before 32 African countries are spending more on that than healthcare and education and that is a scandal. I hope we can do more with remittance. You know how much is sent back from communities overseas but the cost is too high and that would not be a cost of this government.

These are indeed challenging times. I appreciate these are tough choices but we must keep clear commitment to getting back to 0.7% as soon as

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circumstances allow. We are an international as party and believe in the power of age. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. East Kilbride as part of my constituency and has a long and constituency and has a long and proud history as a key part of the UK international department effort. In orations of dedicated civil servants have worked to tackle
16:58
Joani Reid Portrait Joani Reid MP (East Kilbride and Strathaven, Labour)
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servants have worked to tackle global poverty, strengthen partners, Paul Britton's reputation as a force To express deep concern that this government is on the verge of severing that bread connection. The proposed closure of the overseas development opposite break is a mistake, not just for my constituents but the integrity of Britain Bass global development. East Kilbride is not a suburb of Glasgow but a town and its own right, designated as part of the Newtown movement by the post war Labour government.

It is Scotland's's second largest town with its own economy and identity.

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Is at a point of order?

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Is at a point of order? Is far as I am aware, it is not true the office has been closed but true the office has been closed but it is being moved to Glasgow and I am advised there are no plans by the am advised there are no plans by the government to change that. The point

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government to change that. The point It is not Glasgow, and to close

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It is not Glasgow, and to close the development office and shift jobs to Glasgow is not just administering and tinkering with the administration. It is a blow to our community that has built itself around the development opportunities that this office provides. It is taking well-paid skilled jobs from a town and centralising them in a city, the very kinds of decision already made this very difficult, very painful decision. It is not a decision that I celebrate but it is
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17:01
Richard Foord Portrait Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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I would like to start by saying I support the government increase in defence spending from 2.3% to 2.5%. I would like to see the government go further and for it to rise to 3% as soon as possible. I should say that there is an urgency to increase defence spending, and it would have been wrong to wait until the spring spending review later this year. The reduction in development assistance I feel is the wrong place to look for the money.

Because it is not only devastating for humanitarian projects or development assistance, it has a significant geopolitical consequences. For years, Britain has led providing developed assistance to countries in desperate need, helping them to develop, whilst also strengthening our global influence. But now, with both the US and UK cutting back on aids, creates a vacuum that will be filled by more authoritarian actors. Countries that were previously aligned with the West, will have little choice to shift fully to countries hostile to the UK.

This isn't a speculation, and I make this observation based on historical precedent. In 2021 France suspended 10 million and halted military cooperation with the government of the Central African Republic. The Central African Republic sought alternative partners, including full security and went to Russia's Wagner Group. Waggoner deployed mercenaries, solidifying Russia's role in that Central African Republic. But also securing economic resources, securing mineral resources such as diamonds from the Central African Republic. When Russia expanded its foothold in Africa, gained both economic leverage and political influence.

This political shift was parroted in the central African governments voting record in the United Nations. Historically they aligned with the Western supported key resolutions such as the continuation of the UN observation mission in Georgia. More recently what we have seen is on critical UN votes and the General Assembly, Central African Republic has either abstained or voted against resolutions condemning Russia. We resolutions condemning Russia. We see this elsewhere. We have seen it with China's Belt and Road Initiative full stop it is well known that China deepened its ties with Tanzania and Zambia investing in roads, ports, energy projects.

Meanwhile Western influence in those countries waned. China emerged as their primary partner. What we have seen is senior Zambian government officials and ministers and permanent secretaries dissipating in training programs engaging every year. Focusing on a government that is pushing China's authoritarian ideology and influence across Zambia. Historically, when the West withdraws, China and Russia step in. That's exactly what will happen with cuts to the FCDO budget specifically the cutting of development aid to 0.3% of GDP.

To conclude, let's not erode aquatic values across the globe, or weaken our ability to advocate for a fairer and more democratic world because it is also in British interests. Thank you.

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We will drop the time-limit down
17:05
Cat Eccles Portrait Cat Eccles MP (Stourbridge, Labour)
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to three minutes.

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In the uncertain global situation we currently are living in, I welcome the announcement of increased defence spending. I'm sure increased defence spending. I'm sure it will also be welcomed by the military intelligence company in my constituency for top based at the Army Reserve centre with minimal Army Reserve centre with minimal permanent staff and more than 90 reservists from across the Black Country and beyond. It was great to see a female officer leading the Remembrance Day parade this year. A celebration of their diversity and celebration of their diversity and strength.

As part of the increased defence spending we must harness power and skill of British business was not last week I visited the was not last week I visited the U.K.'s leading designer any factor and service provider of lifting appliances for the global marine and offshore industry. Founded in 1901, the business proudly employs over 40 local people and train multiple apprentices each year. I was impressed to hear that they source really all of the material within a 5 mile radius. And they are the leading supplier to the US Navy and the US Coast Guard.

They are keen to break into the UK defence market but under the previous government, they narrowly lost out to a Spanish firm. I welcome the government's continued support for Ukraine. Last year I had the opportunity to visit and some of the things I saw and heard will never leave me. We visited a children's hospital in Kyiv which had been bombed by Russia just a few weeks before, showing that Russia is not even following the rules of war by targeting civic infrastructure.

I met the strongest and most resilient people who were steadfast in their continued fight against Russian aggression. Ukrainian MPs who are battling against Russian propaganda and misinformation, and a new frontier of digital combat. Ordinary people helping one another rebuild their homes and villages, and doctors and nurses treating and rehabilitating the ever-growing number of casualties. On a visit with the mayor, it was clear that funding to Ukraine is not always reaching the people who need it most. Ordinary hard-working Ukrainians.

And I would urge FCDO ministers to ensure that funds sent to Ukraine are fairly distributed across the country to the communities that need them most. It was disappointing to hear that the increased funding will come at the expense of the ODA. I'm still not convinced it is the right thing to do. I understand security at home is of vital importance but should we, as the Labour Party, Libby cutting support to some of the world most vulnerable people? There is crucial work happening in developing countries, in health, education, climate change, and abandoning that work leaves a void for Russia and China to fill.

What does that mean for our support for Gaza and Sudan at the time of the US is pulling its aid? Investing in international develop and is an important contribution to security both at home and abroad.
17:08
Brian Mathew Portrait Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I believe the U.K.'s international development spending must be used development spending must be used effectively, the primary focus on poverty reduction. And we must reverse the ODA cut and get back to 0.7% GNI. Probably our proudest achievement under the coalition government as liberal Democrats. Putting the United Nations sustainable and goals at the heart of our international and policy and giving access to clean water, sanitation, health, and education, and achieving food security.

But for now we are where we are. And with our total aid budget now likely to be cut to around £9 billion each year, we must strive to get the very best value for our money. And not just for the sake of the Exchequer for the massive good British aid and still do in the world if it is not squandered. For example, approximately £4.3 billion is spent on asylum seekers arriving in the UK. A large proportion of the overall aid budget leaving only £4.9 billion for actual aid work overseas.

Now that budget has been further depleted, to increase defence expenditure, it is vital that we bring down these costs associated with asylum seekers. This could be done in the following way, asylum seekers arriving in the UK and either buys more boats or other dangerous means need protection, they need support, they need compassion. They are people. However, what they don't need is to be put in hotels with no plans for the future. As anyone who has been cooped up in a hotel for more than a few weeks will know, this will cause their mental health to suffer and there drive and determination to wane.

These asylum seekers come here full of hope for a better future, for themselves, for their families, and they opt to work, we should give them the chance and support to do so instead of leaving them in administrative limbo in hotels around the country costing the taxpayer billions. If they have the chance to work their way into society instead of remaining a burden on the exchequer, and a burden to themselves, we would free up a large part of the remaining aid budget that could be spent on improving lives in the developing world.

So that people did not need to risk their lives to come here in the first place. Indeed, people come here risking their all and this does not cease once they enter their

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borders. In order to protect them from the clutches of human trafficking. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. And thank you to my honourable friend from Rotherham for bringing this debate this afternoon. The
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Brian Leishman Portrait Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)
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this debate this afternoon. The enormity of the challenges facing the world right now can seem somewhat overwhelming. We are all currently at varying speeds suffering from existential threat of climate change. Allowing for a global economy that is stacked in favour of the few to the detriment of the many, and these issues are driving forces for the volatile unstable world that we live in today. Our government's attitude to the international committee and how to tackle our own domestic issue of increasing inequality should be shaped by the principles of human rights, compassion, and social justice, the very principles of our party and our wider movement were founded on.

To cut overseas aid is a moral failing. Foreign aid should not be considered as an expense to be cut, for it is an investment in global stability, security, and a commitment in making the world a better place. Like, whether domestic or foreign cuts, it will be the poorest and most disadvantaged people who will be hardest hit. We have the International Women's Day debate tomorrow, and women and girls in conflict ridden areas like Sudan, Yemen, Congo, Syria, and Gaza absolutely need our help.

In cutting aid in these regions is not just shortsighted, it will abandon and consign millions to persecution, famine, illness, and death. The government claims that this cut is necessary to fund and increase in defence spending was up but framing things and that way is wrong. Because cutting international development, as many members have mentioned today, does not strengthen our security. In fact it weakens it. Age is a strategic investment in our long-term national interest. We have seen that the United States has slashed the foreign aid budget and HIV clinics in places like Ukraine Uganda and Iberia and South Africa are running out of medicines.

In Sudan, 80% of emergency food kitchens have been shut down. People will starve because of this American decision. Let's not ask make that same mistake. International leadership is desperately needed argue me now more than ever. And the UK cutting overseas aid cuts our credibility and diminishes our role on the world stage will stop let us lead by example, not retreat into isolation that is reaffirm our commitment to being a force for good, a nation that stands up for its values security, and frankly global responsibilities.

I implore the Minister and wider leadership to restore the U.K.'s Overseas Development Aid Budget.
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Alex Ballinger Portrait Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. 20 years ago I joined the Royal Marines, and a year later I was deployed to Afghanistan. I remember the challenges we faced, daily attacks and rockets, the daily struggle and massive underfunding and disappointment for the MoD procurement system. Many of us had to buy our own body armour, we ran out of desert codes and run around with black coats. And we were driving land Rovers which had no protection. To understand that defence underfunding is not a new situation.

Since 2010, when the UK last spent 2.5% of GDP on defence, there has been a decade of austerity under the Conservative government thus typically hollowed out the capability of the armed forces. We must now in the third year of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, it has never been more important for a military to rebuild the capability, to show strength and support for our allies. So I completely back our prime minister and his decision to increase defence spending back to 2.5% GDP.

And his ambition to go further. This is the right course of action. The most effective way to ensure peace in Europe is through strength. But state on state conflict is not the only conflict that threatens us here. There are now more active conflicts across the globe than at any time since the end of the Second World War. In Gaza, Sudan, Yemen, and others. We need a strong military to protect us. And hand- in-hand with defence and a vital spending on international development.

When I was in Afghanistan serving alongside British soldiers and Marines, with Unitarian workers, doctors, NGOs, our armed forces were working side- by-side with British backed aid workers who are now in Ukraine side-by-side with Ukrainian forces. So many stories of brave aid workers across the world where fighting is causing destruction and starvation causing destruction and starvation

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Thank you for bringing conflicts like Afghanistan into this like Afghanistan into this discussion. Does my honourable friend agree that in conflicts like this, aid plays a role and this, aid plays a role and contributes to national security? Does she agree should recognise the tough choices about development tough choices about development spending? Development and Defence spending? Development and Defence are complimentary and when we increased responsibility, Defence spending had to go up. After I left the Royal Marines, we kept hope of a more tolerant society alive.

It helps to mitigate the worst case scenarios and also help prevent further conflict. I'm concerned that cutting the budget so deeply would undermine the ability to help stabilise countries and prevent further conflict arising. These applications will be felt in the UK with spikes in energy prices and food, increase migration, threats from extremist. Military and security services will face the challenges at the time when attention should be on Ukraine. I support raising Defence spending but I encourage government to limit opportunities to reduce such drastic cuts to the budget, particularly in conflict zones and on preventing conflict.

Each pound we spend on conflict pension can save £16 in aid to mitigate the problem. I welcome the pledge to refund for Israeli and Palestinian peace and I hope this continues to be a priority. I strongly support the increase in Defence spending allowance last week and is a former Marine I urge that the government evaluates the critical role that aid plays preventing conflict altogether.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This month marks 10 years since the International Development at which International Development at which committee to consider spending 0.5% of national income on international development and it was a proud development and it was a proud moment which represented the culmination of almost 50 years of culmination of almost 50 years of effort and advocacy by my party, the Liberal Democrats. It was political consensus across the House that
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Monica Harding Portrait Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)
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consensus across the House that created that legislation, built on the work of the reforming Labour government of 1997 who are committed to making policy history and was continued by a coalition of Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Britain is a leader in travel development and are expertise improved our influence on the world stage. Development opened opportunities for trade and growth and worked alongside Defence and diplomacy as the third element of policy to keep us safe at home.

The cuts of last week to 0.3% of GMI cuts of last week to 0.3% of GMI puts an end to the shared consensus. The Liberal Democrats support the increase in Defence spending. He called for the uplift to 2.5% of GDP before the Prime Minister committed to it and we have laid out alternative funding plants. The world is changing fast, not least in the last six weeks. We must adapt. This diminishing of the development spend will make us less secure, not more.

International development serves border security interests and it pays dividends. By contrast, when we retreat, actors whose values and interests are not ours sees the opportunity and even as we watch, Donald Trump and Elon Musk are gutting the US which was responsible for one fifth of the spending and China is filling the gap, deepening its the Indo-Pacific area and Beijing alone agreed $50 billion in aid. Budget cuts forced the closure of BBC World Service Arabic El-Obeid on and radial Sputnik, backed by Russia, moved in.

Development spending helps in the UK and is put at risk by the Prime Minister's us. Through support for organisations like Gavi and the Global Fun, we have not only saved lives. Things like Ebola causing devastation on British shores aren't as the resignation letter made clear last week, divisional make it impossible to maintain developer commitments. It might mean cutting strategic programs and including peace building and deconstruction work. This will only produce more violence, refugees, and the breeding grounds of instability, with the emergence of new terrorist groups that can threaten us at home.

The development cuts will mean reducing climbing finance and damaging mitigation measures countries on the front line and reducing programs for those very same nations. For every 1% increase in food insecurity, there is a 2% rise in migration. It correlates with high birth rates and it is a recipe for vast displacement of people. We know that in the next 10 years, 1.1 billion people across the Global South will become working age adults and in the same countries, we only expect 335 million jobs to be created.

Supporting these economies is in our interests. More conflict will only exacerbate the situation. Last year, even as the largest humanitarian catastrophe in the world unfolds, more than 2000 people from Sudan crossed the channel on small boats. Levels of refugees and migration are at their highest levels. The decision risks further disappointment. Can I ask the matter to clarify why no impact assessment was done in advance of the cuts. When will it be done? When will the House see it? In 2023, the UK spent 0.2% of GMI on development assistance within the UK and £4 billion of that was used in countries with beverages.

We will be left with just 0.1% of GMI if this continues to finance overseas objectives. Among the countries, are its band would be the last of anyone's. It would be lower than Hungary, all of the G7. This is a long way to fall from being a global leader in development spending and the second biggest out of the G7. Will the government reconsider the decision to current refugee costs us all the so the bottle remains can be used abroad.

Will the Minister confirm that money for the fund will be ring fenced and to safeguard British of, can confirm that the current level allocated to the BBC World Service and the British Council will be protected? Will he clarify how much of the 0.3% has been assigned to multilateral cupboard? If the money ring fence? How much will pay for multilevel assistance? How will this affect programs in Sudan, the West Bank, Georgia, where all the helps to please people.

-- Where -- ODA. Most importantly, a 0.3% the floor or the ceiling? This helps 95 million people to cope with the effects of climate change and inoculating 50 million children with life-saving vaccines and that is reflected a deep generosity of the British people. We see this again and again, just how much is donated to appeals in response to natural disasters across the world. We should never mistake development for charity. We reap the benefits through increased trading and critically through security, national health, border security.

I would hope that this government would do more to reset the UK's place on the global stage as promised and a bit of a return after the 0.7% target as promised in the manifesto. In the past, the frontbench, including the Prime Minister, spoke with the vicar about the importance of development for security at the shortsightedness of previous cuts and now Labour has gone further than the Conservatives ever did. This world is becoming ever more dangerous and the international order has been turned on its head.

Yesterday in the UN United States thanks to sustainable development goals developed collaboratively. Liberal Democrats had hoped that the UK would step up and lead development, recognising the vital importance to security. Instead, the government has cut development to its lowest level this century. This is a shortsighted and strategically unwise decision and it will leave us less safe. It is not only the millions of the most poor in the world you will feel this part of our constituents, too. of our constituents, too.



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Members should be referenced by their constituencies or titled, not their first name. I would like to begin my remarks

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I would like to begin my remarks by paying tribute to the many speakers we have had here today but in particular to the chair of PID C. The Member for Rotherham has been a long-standing advocate for aid and I understand her commitments and I would like to pay tribute to a few other colleagues as well, in particular the Member for Sutton global who has been a long-standing and passionate advocate for 0.3% also the effective use and working with the private sector, which he and ICap both had the enormous privilege of doing so.

I would like to pay tribute to the right honourable member for Oxford East for her commitment. I've had the privilege of working with her as well and I must say that during her time in government she was professional and committed to her brief and it was last week where the
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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government sent her to defend the indefensible LeBron Chagos Islands indefensible LeBron Chagos Islands deals which is using money that will deals which is using money that will be paying for a sovereign site. I will not give weight. I do not have will not give weight. I do not have time. I will not re-enter this a bit but I'm glad the Minister is your but I'm glad the Minister is your because there is a lot to cover. I would like to ask him a particular question in relation to the overseas territory and effective about where the cost will be coming from in the Budget, whether it is FCDO, Defence, ODA.

I would like to thank the Minister because before it started I received a flurry of answers to some of the questions but I still do not have clarification, just for the record, so there will be more. In terms of threat spending and ODA - the government was right in terms of redirecting the funds at this particular time and I will not give way because they do not have time but if the honourable member will suspect that we are all very short time today, the threats that we and our allies face on this particular decision and there is consensus from the respective front benches on this.

It importantly shows are enemies and adversities that we are serious as a country when it comes to the challenges that we face. The Minister knows the implications and obviously we must always look to increase defence spending and we will work collectively out together on that. We all recognise and I think the debate has shown this as well but many decisions are difficult to make and the choices have been made. There are strong views in the South and members on these benches as well, one member pointed to some of the choices that have been made and another member also stared we must champion media freedom and some of the key values we stand for.

As a former Secretary of State myself, I love the benefits and I have been there and I understand. The impact of UK aid and how we stand in the world and the way that we save lives and the Global Fund, Gavi, We Know Very Well. Had Saved and Change Lives around the World and we are proud of that. I would like to ask the Minister and I think points have been made already. The government and which development plans in particular had been about Sudan and that has been referenced but there are other areas of conflict, including Yemen, which has not been mentioned.

Also, when it comes to Gavi, the will be on the replacement fund. And in terms of the proportion of GMI, but the Minister response, can you give a commitment in terms of the potential? I would also like to know more about the split of ODA government departments and this has been raised several times in reference to asylum and anal the minutes but want to speak about that as well. I would like to know more about the integrated security fund and decisions and choices being made on that as well and for clarity will be given and also again when it comes to the role of British international investment and perhaps the opportunities there.

I would just like to touch on you cream briefly in the time that I have and there are some other areas, too. It is quite clear that we stand sugar with Ukraine and the fight is our fight and they are on the frontline protecting our way of life and sovereignty, democracy, the rule of law. Is to be able to say, particularly now with changes in Defence spending forthcoming, will the government turbocharge in a positive way the ability to now progress with the summit that the Prime Minister lead at the weekend and the portly, as we know, the Americans held spoken about opposing military aid and intelligence sharing Quetta what work will be do to make sure that does not happen in the ways we have had and how we will respond to that and having constructive dialogue and to safeguard key intelligence and security assets.

This is a defining moment. I want to talk about the Middle East as well and particular when it comes to some of the discussions we had Geoffrey and where we are in terms of the ceasefire in assuring that we are always standing strong it comes to standing up for the hostages. There are new discussions took place in Cairo and also when these plants are forthcoming, Petrogradskaya will play as a country, specifically in I want to raise the issue of Iran.

Our deeper matting and security efforts honesty have to ensure we are addressing this malign influence. I welcome the governance actions undertaken yesterday on the enhanced Tia of FIRS, but do want to press ministers to go further. We have consistent and serious approach across government, whole of government effort now when it comes to security and defence. Also when it comes to China might have to say we've heard in this House they of the day we know the threats posed by Russia, Iran but also China, they can to new to cast a dark shadow over freedom, democracy and national interest.

We have to stop going cap in hand to China. We have to do much more, and I hope the Minister can reflect on what I consider to be the government's reckless approach in kowtowing to China, but what are we going to do to ensure that the vacuum that will now be posed in some parts of the world will not be filled by China but how we are going to stand up to them in particular. Finally, it's pretty clear we live in an increasingly unstable world first the Commonwealth has one of the greatest privileges in the world, standing up to look after our security, defence and our freedom, using soft power until the levers it has.

We urge ministers within the scope that they have now to tackle the real threats and challenges that we all face globally but also to give voice and representation to many of the issues that colleagues have spoken about today in this

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House. Can I start by thanking all the

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Can I start by thanking all the honourable and right honourable members for passionate and sincere members for passionate and sincere contributions to today's debate. We have an incredible wealth of experience, not least in terms of
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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experience, not least in terms of former ministers, former members of the committee, current members of the committee for I was a former member of the committee, and also many who have worked in international developers sector but also on wider Foreign Affairs and security issues, and of course notably those who have served in our Armed Forces, and we thank them for that service and all of those who served our country and humanitarian security and defence roles. A particular want to thank my honourable friend the chair of the committee, for opening this debate and she makes her point strongly and forcibly.

She's done an important role as chair of that committee, and we take very sincerely the points she is making and hear them all, and I will make sure they are communicated to the new minister of state, minister in the other place. These are indeed challenging times. And they are challenging times which demand tough choices and clear leadership. And if I may as well, pay tribute to the work of my former colleague and current colleague still in the House, the right honourable member Oxford East.

I've known him for nearly 30 years. -- Her. She is a person of absolute integrity and sincerity, and I'm sure she will contribute continually in this House on many matters of importance, but I thank her for her work. And I also want to thank all of the staff at the Commonwealth and developed office and did our arm's- length bodies and other organisations like the BBC World Service and the British Council incredible work they do. Ministers, former ministers opposite will know the absolutely incredible work that our teams and staff have done, both for this government and the last on these matters, antisubsidy right at times of uncertainty like these that we recognise their contribution and their work, and I thank all the honourable members who have raised that point in particular.

I want to be as transparent and open as I can. I have noted all of the very many different points, whether it's about specific geographic locations and specific programs. I will be pretty honest, I'm not in a position today to answer some of the specific questions raised about specific funding for specific programs but I will ensure that those points are heard loud and clear but my right honourable friend, the Minister of State for development, undertake him with his sincerity and it's been helpful debate to understand the priorities of this place.



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Thank you. I know the right honourable member... The honourable member absolute passion and member absolute passion and experience in this. On the International Development he had under the last Labour government. As chair of the APPG on eight March, chair of the APPG on eight March, does he see a role for generosity of UK public in ensuring that they can match and supplement our efforts in match and supplement our efforts in rebuilding our country's efforts and

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rebuilding right across the world? Absolutely, and I pay tribute to her expense on these issues and have worked with her over many years. She is right absolutely, eight matches crucially important and indeed we very much hope to continue the work, the issue for the British public do on this is remarkable. When we come to their generosity, whether it's Gaza, Ukraine, many crises around the world, and I pay tribute to all the community is up and down this country and individuals who do such brilliant generosity and

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fundraising. Very grateful to the Minister. Would it be fair to say that the Would it be fair to say that the step that has been taken to use development money for the immediate or relatively prompt increase in defence is essentially a short-term measure which will have to be substituted by other long-term measures, given that the increase in defence if it's to fund a security defence if it's to fund a security contribution to a divided Ukraine will be an definite commitment.



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I have is they can't speak many years into the future, but he's absolutely right, our intent is to get back to 0.7% as soon as the get back to 0.7% as soon as the physical circumstances allow and the premise has been very clear about premise has been very clear about that. I want to also acknowledge... I won't take more interventions afraid because of the time I need to respond to the points that have been respond to the points that have been made.

But I think it was clear across the House today that we all agree with a couple of exceptions that our defence spending needs to that our defence spending needs to go up. There is absolutely clear unity on Ukraine. We will busily be setting out the further work on from the summit at the weekend and how we go forward very important conversations and that over recent days and myself and the Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister have been involved in. But it's clear that this time of profound change with conflicts overseas and many security and prosperity home and the Prime Minister took that decision to increase spending on defence rightly to 2.5% of GDP from 2027, and that will be funded by cutting spending on overseas develop and from 0.5% to 0.3%.

The Prime Minister was absolutely clear this was not an announcement he was happy to make, and I know there are a couple of suggestions opposite. The Prime Minister is a man of integrity and sincerity on this issue and I urge colleagues to look very carefully at what he said about this, and for me as well very sincerely difficult decision, not least my own experience working in humanitarian and International Development NGOs, and that their former centre for development. I've seen as many memos have reflected on very positive impact Britain's proud record in overseas develop and have had on lives around the world.

And as the Prime Minister said, we will continue to play a key role doing everything we can to move towards rebuilding our capacity and remain committed to working in Sudan, Ukraine and Gaza, on tackling climate change, and supporting multinational efforts on global health challenges like vaccination of course our commitment is to the overseas territories too. And I have to really level with the House. I hope people can see and feel this, but in this dangerous new era, the defence and national security of defence and national security of this country must come first.

This is not the 1990s. This is not even 2005. And I cannot look at what I do every day or indeed other ministers look every day and not recognise that we have to respond differently to the very serious threats facing to the very serious threats facing this country, our continent and the world, and I say that indeed can do. So this difficult choice reflects the evolving nature of the threats we face and the strategic shifts required to meet them while maintaining economic stability, the foundation of this government's plan for change.

We will also ensure that every pound of development -- assistance is spent in the best way to encourage change. The estimates in this reflect that approach and we continue with FCDO not just on ODA to focus on growth security, climate, nature and developing. And reducing the overall size of our ODA Have impact on the skin and shape of what we do, considering how to maximise our budget through the oncoming Spending Review but ODA of course alone is not and has never been the single answer to the many challenges of International Development.

We have used all the levers at our disposal to spot develop aims and make use of all forms of development finance to maximise the impact of our ODA. We set out busily the detail of the changes that have been made. Many memos have raised concerns about the asylum spending. Home Office introduced policy and operational change within the asylum system to reduce the impact on UK ODA spent and the Home Secretary is committed to ensuring that asylum falls, and this is already taken and impact, and steps taken to reduce in an expanded period and increased capacity to facilitate more renewables.

The chief sector to the renewables. The chief sector to the Treasury consider the impact of GI among other changes to ODA forecast in the round and agreed the FCDO would receive and uplift our 2024/25 ODA settlement in the region of 540 million. Many of my Right Honourable colleagues have raised questions on 2025/26. We will be setting initial budgets for 25/26 in most disruption to key programs as we transition financial years. The details that will be set out in due course. The ODA budgets for future is coming under review by the government and will confirm details to this House in due course.

I do want to be honest. We can at this stage provide categorical assurances, but I'm sure that the points have been made clearly. Many members raised debt relief, sporting developing countries to tackle unsustainable debt is a key developing priority of this government. We need to take that twin track approach of tackling immediate challenges and the underlying drivers of sustainable and unsustainable debt. PI was mentioned, a crucial part of our developing architecture, providing additional support to PII, working closely with them on their role and indeed in 2023, PII business backed jobs for more than one million people, $2.5 billion in tax and generated huge amount of lectures they need a clear role for that.

Important points about the British Council, the funding we are giving there, taking those on board for the World Service, an organisation we usually support of course. Our part of the funding for that has gone. By 32.6 million in the fiscal year 25/26. The role of SDR's has been appointed to first women girls with absolute highlight and will continue to send women and girls in everything we do internationally and impact assessments raised many times of course, impact assessments including the impact on women and girls will be a crucial part going forward.

I mention eight match. And imagine many of the other things, but what I will say is that these are incredibly difficult choices, but they are the right choices in the circumstances that we find ourselves in. They are not ones we made lightly. I've heard can -- sincerely these and commend the sincerely these and commend the estimates to the House full top
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17:46
Liam Byrne Portrait Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)
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growth under the microscope today together with its accounts. In readiness for today's debate our committee has actually taken the committee has actually taken the precaution of going out and talking to hundreds and hundreds of businesses up and down the country, to trade unionists, consumer groups and indeed delaying in the House a report on what we heard from literally thousands of voices. Because in a way that is what these accounts, that is what these estimates, this minister should be judged against when we consider this matter here today.

Let me make three points very quickly to get the debate started. Let me start with the point that struck me hardest as we were listening to business voices up and down the country which is that all of the visions which divide us here in this House, there is actually a terrific unity of purpose amongst the business community in our country about not only it could be possible to become the fastest- growing economy in the G7, but about some of the things in which we need to do to tick -- hit that target.

Overwhelmingly business want to see ministers do more to help grow the markets into which they sell, they want to see quite an ambitious research with the European Union, they want to see fast tracking of the free trade deals with Switzerland and the GCC, with India. They want us absolutely to do everything possible to avoid the peril of tariffs from the United States. They also want to see a complete transformation in the way in which we use public procurement to support businesses in this country.

Minister after minister has said from that despatch box we are going to do more to buy British, well it is time to actually deliver on that promise. Second, businesses want the right workers for the roles that are available. Too much everywhere we went the challenges of getting the right workforce in place were often the number one priority that people heard from, it is true that we heard a lot about business concerns, about the rising cost of business, people are worried about the impact of the Employment Rights Bill and the National Minimum Wage changes and the national insurance increases coming at the same time.

But actually what I had business say is that they could live with that if they could see the rapid development and publication of a growth plan along with the compressor Spending Review so I regret the fact that that has moved sideways because actually what I think in the context of what this extremely hard-working ministers doing an employer rights Bill, it would have been in this political interest if his colleagues were able to table that industrial strategy together with the growth plan sooner rather than later.



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Appreciate in giving way to me, I wonder if he would agree with me that part of the issues around employment and skills as well and part of the way we can to support business as a government is to ensure young people have the skills to succeed in business and in all workplaces.

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workplaces. 100% right, what we heard loud and clear is business say to us they and clear is business say to us they wanted the season radical and bold changes in the way skills levy was organised, the government has moved to introduce flexibilities, I think to introduce flexibilities, I think business would want to go further and faster. Thirdly we had business say there is actually a pretty good environment when it comes to start- up finance but there is a terrible environment in this country when it comes to scale up finance and we returned that point moment.

People want to see much stronger relationships between universities and businesses, we still don't have in this country something like the Inst in Germany which has of their slogan that we are the R&D department. Where those partnerships work they are good but they need to be far more prevalent than they are today because finally be heard loud and clear business assay the planning system needs a complete overhaul, the infrastructure we have in this country is terrible and we have absolutely got to drive down energy prices because right now Sony businesses are being priced out of doing business because the energy prices are sky high.

I think for all of our differences there are some important points around which we can agree. We were on the Select Committee continues to judge ministers against many of the things we heard from the business community as we travel up and down the country and let me flag to a three points we really want to zero in on before I give way. After I give way to my noble friend.

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His point about energy costs in doing opening markets times with everything in the industry tells me they are facing the moment. The they are facing the moment. The point onto the pickup is he is right about the need for growth. But is about the need for growth. But is also as well as being the one for chairman of the Select Committee a doughty campaigner against inequality and inequity I'm sure he will share my sentiment that we been will share my sentiment that we been to ensure is that in Birmingham or Stoke-on-Trent those benefits of growth are felt in every community, collect particularly those

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collect particularly those communities who sadly under the last governor do not see the benefits we deserved. He is an extraordinary champion for his city and a champion for the industry that made the city great over the centuries. He's up the rights. When the industrial strategy is published with absolutely got to understand whether there is driving growth, whether it is driving better wages, transforming people's ability to earn a good life in every single corner of the country we constantly have a situation again as we have had over the last 10 to 15 years Has been constructed in London and the south-east.

We got to genuinely level up this country and we got to make sure that there is, to the extent we can altogether a cross- party consensus in the changes are needed, why because we can get the cross-party consensus we can genuinely decide economic -- redesign economic institutions in our country the way that sustainable. There are three issues that I wanted to bring up because they will pose questions to the Minister when he is asking us to agree estimates today. The first is that there is a real worry amongst the small business QC but whether they will be adequately supported by some of the changes that ministers helping drive through.

We all know what has bedevilled our economy for a long time as Alonso tale of under productive, often smaller firms and with we are to raise wages, to raise the rate of growth we will become the fastest growing economy in the G7 we could transform the productivity rate of a lot of small firms, yet how is new technology going to be diffused through supply chains? How can we make sure the businesses that are medium and small sized are actually going to have the support to deploy new technology in a way that could change business.



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I thank him for his chairmanship of the committee. On that point I of the committee. On that point I want to clarify based on the premises recent announcement does noble friend agrees me that is noble friend agrees me that is really important to port defence SMEs given the increased defence

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spending? She is a brilliant member of the committee makes a billion point, this is the case in point. We know this is the case in point. We know we've got to come to a strategic culture of defence mindset in this culture of defence mindset in this country where our industry is able to innovate as fast as the battlefield changes that we all know there are for example defence manufacturers or drone manufacturers which often struggle to get the working capital they need to fund and grow their businesses month by month.

We are going to have to change this, we're going to have to change the way we support smaller businesses, that means that we are going to have to transform access to finance. We've heard time and time again on committee the way in which business leaders will come in and they will say once a firm gets to a particular kind of size they are bought in, snapped up and shipped out to the United States in particular because we Sibley do not seem to be able to supply equity finance, debt finance between 50 million and 500 million and so we got to think in new about how we ensure the business bank, the National Wealth Fund, private sector, some changes proposed the pension funds all actually work together to completely revolutionise access to finance and businesses in this market.

In the estimates there is what looks like quite a welcome hundred and £14 million increase in funding for the British Business Bank. It looks like, although it's hard to decode it from the accounts, it looks like about 127 million of that provision for bad debt, it would be good of the Minister could clarify that for us today. We will continue to press through an enquiry we will launch on the committee later in the year this need to completely transform access to finance. The final fear I just want to flag which is again becoming loud and clear for members on the committee, is that government just doesn't work for business.

In the way that it needs to. We've heard over and over again the way in which one department does something which completely undermines the work another department. How unregulated does something which undermines what a different department or different regulator is trying to do. What we can't yet see either in the brief or industrial strategy or indeed any of the commentary about the estimates is the way in which we knit government together in a wholly new way. In the good old days when I was chief secretary of the Treasury, what we were beginning to test, well there was an awful lot more money and there was now.

We certainly didn't have a debt interest bill of £100 billion per year which is of course what it is now in risen to which is why semi difficult choices have to be made today for the we were beginning to consider is how you genuinely created single funds that were pooled funds that came together from different government departments. One of the challenges we have to reflect on and this House is that we reinforce silos in government, we don't reinforce joined up government.

This estimates debate is a good example, we are considering the accounts of the Department for business entry but in an ideal world we would also have the Department for innovation, who have the Treasury, Defra, we would have a couple of other departments and we would actually be asking ministers together how they working together in order to deliver joined up offer to our business community, because it hasn't got time to muck around to deal with all of the redtape because they are trying to

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build a business. I know he's given away a few

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I know he's given away a few times already. One thing I've got speaking to businesses my constituency is simply that young constituency is simply that young people particularly those who want to remain in rural community Sibley cannot get to the jobs that they cannot get to the jobs that they want -- simply they have trouble accessing a lot of the help he is accessing a lot of the help he is referring to. Does he agree one of the particular sins of the last 14 years has been not only the business climate has been too small and rural businesses?

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He is right but we got to look to the future now. We have to understand is how government is going to connect together and ensure there is a transformation reasonable there is a transformation reasonable -- regional transport and collectivity. So many parts of our collectivity. So many parts of our collectivity. So many parts of our But bedevilled by lack of internet collectivity so they can't get access to the kind of applications that might give them access to artifical intelligence for example.

They can't access the international They can't access the international market or the internet.. We got to think really quite boldly about how we joined up that together in quite a revolutionary way. The final point that I wanted to highlight is the post office. We look at these accounts in the round we can see a accounts in the round we can see a 44.8 increase in accounts up to nearly 6 pounds Pierre, that is partly driven by 444 million from the British Business Bank but overwhelmingly driven by £1.3 billion extra from the post office.

That's because there is a good step taken to increase funding from the Post Office Compensation Act scheme that money is still going out the door fast enough, I accept it has improved unlimited will return with some tough questions to ministers in the light of the response, but the final point I wanted to make to urge both on the Minister and on his colleagues in the Treasury 's we cannot transform post office into the organisation that it could be by drip, drip, dripping the funding for modernisation through to the organisation.

What the post office needs the proper five to 10 year funding plan so that it can genuinely become the organisation that could be. When these accounts were published by the Department they were qualified and they were late. There are a number of problems that civil servants no got to work hard to iron out and we've asked the permanent tax for monthly updates on how he is doing in bringing clarity this House should expect to stop I will conclude by thanking the Department the extraordinary work they do, they are absolutely mission-critical to the hopes for so many of us in this country and for us becoming the fastest growing
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Alison Griffiths Portrait Alison Griffiths MP (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, Conservative)
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insurance jobs tax is making it more expensive to hire workers. The family business tax punishes those family business tax punishes those who drive local economies, and the 1970s star employment laws are 1970s star employment laws are stifling business growth. The result, the fastest rate of job result, the fastest rate of job losses since 2008. So instead of supporting enterprise, this government is actively making it harder for businesses to thrive. The harder for businesses to thrive. The Department for Business and Trade is budgets being slashed by 6% means less support at a time when firms need it most.

The so-called Employment Rights Bill or perhaps an Employment Rights Bill will cost the government £1 billion while its fair work agency could add an astonishing £6.3 billion burden. Costs that will inevitably be passed on to businesses and workers alike. This isn't just about numbers on a spreadsheet. These policies have real consequences. Workers losing their jobs, families struggling with rising costs and businesses already being forced to shut their doors. The government claims to support growth, yet their policies are driving farms -- families into significant financial distress with 32,000 businesses now at risk, a 32% increase in just one year.

The irony is that Britain remains an attractive place to invest. The PwC CEO survey ranked second only to the United States. But alas that survey took place before the budget. A strong economy depends on strong business confidence. Yet confidence in this government's economic management has been shattered. Businesses no longer trust that the government has a clear strategy for growth, something that the honourable member for Birmingham has only mentioned. The numbers speak for themselves. More than 200 leading hospitality and retail firms have warned that government policies will force them to cut jobs and scale back investment.

Businesses face ever-changing regulations, increasing tax burdens and a government that appears out of touch

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with their needs. Grateful. She refers to the

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Grateful. She refers to the increase in regulation. The government's Employment Rights Bill, government's Employment Rights Bill, which I have in my hand is 192 pages. Only this week government pages. Only this week government amendments totalling 216 pages have been tabled for this House to been tabled for this House to consider in two days next week. That presents any business with a vast quantity of new regulations to

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consider, does it not? I thank my honourable friend for his intervention, and he's absolutely right. The time that we have next week to consider this number of amendments seems wholly inadequate. So businesses are facing ever-changing regulations, increasing tax burdens, but many have said that they were misled, duped into believing that this government was pro-business when its actions tell a very different story. Analysis by Nuffield trust found that if the fair work agency for social care workers to increase wages to match the NHS agenda for change band three, the cost could be as high as £6.3 billion.

Including an increase to the real living wage, costing £2.2 billion. Another measure in the out of touch Employment Rights Bill. It's as if the 32 members of the Cabinet have a very limited understanding of the private sector and business as a whole. So business owners, entrepreneurs and workers do not need more red tape and tax hikes. They need a government that understands the growth doesn't come from the state dictating terms. But from unleashing the potential of enterprise. The new policies that encourage investment, not deter it.

Businesses in my constituency are already struggling with the global impacts on their business environment. Let alone the challenges at home. The day one writes, as given by the Employment Rights Bill give the presumption of innocence to workers. And the presumption of malevolent intent to employers. The reality is that neither is correct. The government needs to understand that when business thrives, Britain thrives. That is the only way we will restore confidence, protect jobs, and secure confidence, protect jobs, and secure

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I speak today as a member of the Business and Trade committee and as Business and Trade committee and as the MP for Livingston constituency, determined to see this department plays a vital part in delivering the government's number one mission of economic growth and economic renewal. All underpinned by a pro- renewal. All underpinned by a pro- worker pro-business approach. One of the crucial elements in delivering that mission is the delivery of a modern and ambitious industrial modern and ambitious industrial strategy that is towards that industrial strategy will primarily address my remarks today.

It's my address my remarks today. It's my belief that UK economy is a moment of peril. 14 Tory years of underfunding, instability and a lack underfunding, instability and a lack of investment and people and infrastructure has left us with anaemic growth. If we do not get the next few years right and the trend will continue despite the best efforts of our business leaders and workers. However, I also see opportunity. As the Business and Trade committee went round the country gathering evidence for this report, speaking to those with a stake in our economy from global traders to academics, we heard and saw the same thing time after time
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Gregor Poynton Portrait Gregor Poynton MP (Livingston, Labour)
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again. Huge potential and opportunity for our country and the businesses the parrot what they want from government was stability, from government was stability, predictability and coherence. If we as a government can provide that, they believe they could unleash our they believe they could unleash our country's potential. There was universal positivity about the governance focus around an industrial strategy, believing it industrial strategy, believing it will drive investment, create high- quality jobs and ensure businesses, including in my own Livingston constituency thrive in an economy of constituency thrive in an economy of the future.

Because economic prosperity does not happen by accident. It takes businesses, accident. It takes businesses, business leaders and workers. It requires vision, leadership, and a government willing to invest in the industries that empower our future. The Green Paper sets out how the strategy will support growth sectors, drive productivity and ensure that Britain remains a world leader, financial services, fin tech, green technology, life sciences and more. These are not just abstract commitments. They have tangible benefits to people and businesses in my constituents of Livingston and across Scotland and the wider UK.

Take for example the significant opportunities in Scotland's renewable sector. With the right industrial strategy we can fully harness the nation's potential and on and offshore wind, hydrogen production Sustainable Aviation Fuel Bill and battery technology. It's about well-paid secure, future facing employment across Livingston constituency and elsewhere, that benefits workers, families, communities and the like. Contrast this approach by DBT and the wider Labour government, rooted in long- term strategy and tangible investment with a record of the S&P Scottish government over the past 18 years.

It is frankly staggering the Scotland, the country with a truly strong economy, not only that but businesses of all kinds and growing concerns about Scottish government to make a policy ignored. Go ahead. I'd like to hear it.

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I'm glad he liked to hear it full to its breathtaking what I just heard. I'd like to remind the right honourable gentlemen Scotland's economy is one of the best economy is one of the best performing parts of the UK. And indeed since 2007, Scotland's GDP per person has grown by 10.5%, per person has grown by 10.5%, outperforming the UK 6.5% while productivity has risen at an annual productivity has risen at an annual rate of 1.5%. So I'd be interested in what figures he's working with in what figures he's working with because it's very topsy-turvy world because it's very topsy-turvy world in school and has the best

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investment outside London. He full sent to the trap of thinking just a bit better than the Tories is good enough for Scotland. I see Scotland as much more than I see Scotland as much more than that. While this Government is that. While this Government is Certainty they need to plan for the Certainty they need to plan for the future, the S&P has been content to manage decline, without a plan to similar growth retract investment for them they failed in delivering green jobs despite grand promises nonrenewable energy, that never materialised, and failed to support manufacturing, leaving companies without backing too full to contrast with the U.K.'s action to create jobs and investment at Grangemouth.

The site of huge economic importance to Scotland. The Prime Minister's announcement of £200 from the national wealth fund represent a clear and unequivocal commitment to ensuring that Grangemouth remains a hub of economic and industrial activity. This investment will not only safeguard existing jobs but unlocking opportunities and green energy in advanced Manufacturing. That's going and working in the interest of business, of workers on long-term prosperity forced and is that spirit I hope and believe that Grangemouth will find a central part of DBT's industrial strategy and the work of the Department for years to come.

The S&P Scottish government and previous Tory government had years to act but failed to do so. They squandered opportunities and failed to plan for Grangemouth and Scotland's economic future. But as Labour govern has stepped up and secure future for Grangemouth workers, providing them with the training guarantee and working with industry partners to build long-term resilience the site. The contrast could not be sharper. I look forward to working with the dedicated end talented colleagues across all parties as we getting to scrutinise the work of the department.

This government is committed to driving growth and building an economy that works for everyone. The opportunity to get ahead is what everyone wants for the family. It's why in politics to make sure no one in this country is held back by the circumstances. I believe in modern industrial strategy is key to making that happen.

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With a reduction to four minutes

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in time. I regularly meet with business

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I regularly meet with business owners big and small across the Bromley and Biggin Hill Bromley and Biggin Hill constituency. The story is the same no matter who I talk to, be it big franchisees, independent care providers or small family owned start-ups. British businesses do not start-ups. British businesses do not feel supported by this Labour government. Instead, they feel government. Instead, they feel hamstrung by Labour's tax rises and redtape. Department for Business and Trade's budget may be over 3.3 billion, but ask any business, and they will say things are getting
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Peter Fortune Portrait Peter Fortune MP (Bromley and Biggin Hill, Conservative)
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worse. Not better. Under Labour. I've lost count of the number of local enterprises who have told me that they've stopped recruiting, that they are making redundancies. They are delaying investment, and They are delaying investment, and increasing prices. All after increasing prices. All after Labour's tax-raising budget. And this shouldn't come as a surprise to the government. Hiking employers national insurance contributions by 25 billion will cost jobs. Imposing 25 billion will cost jobs. Imposing reams of new employment redtape will deter businesses from hiring.

They may only be one Cabinet member who started their own business, but this is simple stuff. If you make it more expensive and difficult to hire and grow, businesses will not hire or grow. And this is what an antibusiness, anti-growth government looks like. Labour's policies are causing economic growth to slow down. Unemployment to rise fast. And inflation to increase again. The constituency of Bromley and Biggin Hill has nearly 4,800 small businesses. They are the lifeblood of the local economy.

If they thrive, our communities succeeds. If they fail, our community suffers. I like small businesses across the country, Labour is making their job harder. A new survey by the Federation of Small Businesses shows that 1/3 of small employers plan to cut jobs with nine in 10 worried about Labour's Employment Rights Bill. Small business confidence has also fallen to a record low because of the pandemic. With confidence among London's small firms plummeting more than any other English region. This Labour government isn't helping businesses deliver economic growth.

Instead, they are taxing them to the very

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brink. Is a member of the Business and

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Is a member of the Business and Trade Select Committee, I'm pleased Trade Select Committee, I'm pleased to share our committee's priorities for this Parliament. And how the evidence that we have gathered has shaped our work plan. Recently I hosted a roundtable in Tamworth were hosted a roundtable in Tamworth were local businesses and given our close relationship with the West Midlands combined authority, they also
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Sarah Edwards Portrait Sarah Edwards MP (Tamworth, Labour)
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combined authority, they also invited our mayor Richard Parker to discuss his plans for skills and One of the main things that came through was the challenges we face in finding the right work is with the transition to a greener, more digital economy, businesses need a skilled workforce. The Minister's recent announcement to make apprenticeships shorter, more agile and tailored to business needs directly response to what we had across the country. In Tamworth I across the country. In Tamworth I also spoke with Kia construction and streams maxims and strong tie to see how we can encourage young people and women to consider the construction sector.

With clear pathways we can ensure that skills needed to ensure economic growth and deliver housing and infrastructure that our country needs are in place. A great example of regional success is cornerstone partnership, a social housing development in Tamworth and with support from the combined authority they been accessed unable to access finance through loans them treating devolved powers can direct resources effectively. However challenges still remain for smaller businesses that struggle to access finance from institutions like the British Business Bank. They face barriers when exporting so I would like to hear from the Minister a little bit more about how businesses will be enabled to access this additional £450 million for the British Business Bank.

One of the other businesses I spoke to in my constituency was pie can, a small company that started with five employees and now exports globally from its base in Tamworth. In just over a decade they have grown to over 30 employees, despite the success they face long waits for suitable industrial units and many businesses I've spoken with have similarly had a situation where they cannot find midrange industrial spaces to grow into. Small and medium-sized enterprises are the backbone of our economy making up 99.8% of all private sector businesses.

Yet these businesses are under immense pressure. Especially with rising costs and energy challenges. The energy crisis has hit businesses hard, particularly in sectors like hospitality. I hear time and time again how energy bills are forcing an -- businesses to close will stop the good news is as of December 2024 the energy ombudsman can are present businesses with up to 50 employees, expanding their reach beyond just micro- businesses and I'm currently working with them on behalf of one of my micro-businesses you have faced unfair backfilling back -- practices by their energy supplier.

Our high streets have been affected by business closures but in Tamworth we've embraced our heritage as a drive for regeneration. Our unique selling point is our history and heritage. Using this to bring businesses back to the town. With businesses back to the town. With our grade 1 listed church and Tamworth Castle as key drivers of growth, local businesses have already collaborated on events like a festival which brought the community together and attracted visitors. With the government's £270 million funding for arts everywhere program sounds like Tamworth can continue to showcase their heritage, support local businesses and regenerate the town centres.

In conclusion there is much more to discuss. But whether it's improving access to finance, supporting digital transformation or helping businesses to export, with the right support we can achieve sustained growth but we must stay agile in the face of unpredictable global

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contexts. I rise as well as a member of the

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I rise as well as a member of the Select Committee. Perhaps no other department impacts the lives of Sony department impacts the lives of Sony Britons, the economy affects each and every one of us. When the government number one priority is the fastest sustained atomic growth in the G7 bent useful parlance the Chancellor is the midfield general Chancellor is the midfield general and the Department for Business and Trade is the big striker in the opposition box. The rest of us all of us have a seat on the terraces
18:19
John Cooper Portrait John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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of us have a seat on the terraces will stop but oh dear, we barely kicked off and we are pinned in our own half. So where is business confidence when less than 1/4 of businesses who cheered Labour on signing the letterhead of the election are still waving their red scarves. One said they now felt duped. One of the financial backup, the eye-catching headline figure in the supplementary estimates is that the apartment was allocated -- Department was allocated a total funding increase of 1.8 billion, yet that money is largely earmarked for Post Office Compensation Bill's is absolutely right and proper that those victims be compensated, and quickly.

But there should be no pretense this money is a shot in the arm for DBT. One of extra £440 million for the British Business Bank in the estimates is good news, is it enough? This country lacks not for start-ups but full-scale apps. We hear time and again the lack of finance from risk averse banks block. Scale matters, the Business and Trade Committee heard all of yesterday that while work by the previous governance had created ideal environment to the emergence of quantum computing Britain has earmarked a few million for the sector.

Impressive until you hear the United States is injecting over 50 billion and their R&D alone is several times our total budget in this field. No government is ever in full control of events and the storms of war are howling. Even as this government industrial strategy has been shaped, defence is now the utmost priority. If as a nation we are not secure that we are not a nation. Wars are fought in trenches and on myriad battlefields but they are one in the boardrooms and in the shop floors and shipyards of industry.

Economic growth then is a key arrow in the British quiver. But do these estimates give us hope for growth? Rather than confidently striking out four new global deals Britain today looks like a cork in a storm tossed sea, at the mercy of events and not their master. On a Business and Trade Committee visit to Brussels we explored what the government might expect of its much vaunted reset of relations. Troublingly Britain lacks for any clear definition beyond warm words about defence and security, yet the EU already has an invoice drawn up.

We are exceeded to the CPTPP, not We are exceeded to the CPTPP, not It's a block of over 500 million people and includes countries such as Australia, Canada, Japan, Singapore. Economies which are ripe to blame such as Pienaar Malaysia, in contrast the sunset economies of Europe with sclerotic growth will stop yet we are told British Steel to cut GDP only marginally was that we lack ambition because this is based on previous...

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I just wanted to follow up on your comment on international trade. And to ask you whether you would agree that the government currently lacks the capability to support businesses appropriately in businesses appropriately in Thank you for that intervention I Thank you for that intervention I agree completely with my noble friend that much more needs to be done on international trade as I said. We lack ambition in this field because we pay so much of what we expect on previous deals, frankly there has never been a deal like CPTPP or the putative deals within their and the dripping roast that is a free trade deal.

The Department for Business and Trade needs to be step up and not be beaten before we even started. Growth is the destination all in this House should agree on, the path there is whether disputes live. We are in an economic relegation zone after a dumb budget. Can the Department for Business and Trade help pull off the shock result we all need? Britain's got talent, Department of business and trade can

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boost it. Is a member of the Business and Trade Committee I welcome this debate and looking at our priorities for the future. SMEs make up 99.9% of British businesses, employing of British businesses, employing over 16 million people. As a daughter of a greengrocer's, my speech will focus on supporting SMEs to grow our economy. It is crucial that the government planned delivering long-term growth should delivering long-term growth should include digital inclusion including financial literacy, improving uptake and accessing finance, workflows reskilling and expanding exports leading to gross, abilities of SMEs.

Digital exclusion is not just a social problem but it's an economic one as well the government's own digital skills plans recognises that
18:24
Sonia Kumar Portrait Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)
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businesses and workers must be equipped with digital capabilities to drive growth. Yet millions of to drive growth. Yet millions of adults and thousands of businesses lack the digital skills and financial literacy needed to compete in both today's and tomorrow's in both today's and tomorrow's economy they face barriers to to digital production including costs, lack of awareness in the decorative accessing government support. I spoken to several businesses in Dudley and I recently held a networking event and small businesses repeatedly said they don't have the time to learn digital don't have the time to learn digital skills, use social media as part of the marketing strategy and are walking into the dark.

SMEs also face barriers in accessing finance to scale up and enter new markets abroad. I support the Business and Trade Committee's priorities and will department agreed to spend on expanding financial initiatives governments must make grants R&D tax reliefs, digital adoption funding easier to access especially for SMEs outside London and big cities. Focus on financial literacy is so big businesses can thrive. Streamline public procedure so as to many tech SMEs struggle to win public sector contracts due to the overly complex processes.

Issues for business to access finance with money or scaling up to export. Lastly can the government commit on maximising opportunity for the industrial strategy for towns like Dudley to ensure that no town has left behind on this journey for economic prosperity.

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Three minute time limit. Obviously increasing investments is crucial to delivering a semi- priorities which are improving puppet services, supporting private economy, tackling the climate emergency and eradicating child poverty full stop I just want to put
18:26
Chris Law Portrait Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)
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poverty full stop I just want to put us back again to be clear about facts in this House was Scotland's economy as one of the best performing parts of the UK. It outgrown GDP by 50% compared to the rest of the UK since 2007, productivity averaging 1.1%. It's also vital that spending burden of business and trade components of the Scottish government's efforts to help increase investment enjoy comic prosperity. Increasing trade and attracting inland investment are critical. Land full stop in 2023 Scottish got a record number of direct investment projects meeting its position as the top performing UK area outside London for the ninth year running.

According to Ernest Youngs -- Ernst & Young's annual analysis, hundred 42 projects secure in Scotland doubled the U.K.'s growth rate for the Scotland is clearly the best place to invest in these islands. However the success must not be jeopardised by decisions by the UK government for top obviously the pressure employers are feeling when national insurance is negatively impacting Scottish businesses limiting the capacity to contribute to the economy for top contribute to the economy for top this taxing jobs undermines efforts to support businesses, entrepreneurs and investment.

Labour split school choice to remain outside the EU single market customs union is costing the UK billions every year. Brexit is a decision Scotland never voted for continues to hurt Scottish businesses, trade opportunities and economic prospects. A January 2025 analysis by the chief economic adviser estimates Brexit trade barriers could cost Scotland £4 billion of exports potentially down 7.2% or 3 billion compared to EU member ship. Scotland's future therefore lies in the EU and European single market and Labour government must acknowledge that this is driving down investment and growth as these companies stand outside the EU.

She also crystallised the central initiated by President Trump as part of the American first rate policy free trade a long established principle is now under signal constrain, bringing trade with the USA and other nations imposing tariffs. I would speak about the vulnerable industry in whiskey which needs to be revisited, I've only heard today that actually removing the idea of making English whiskey single mort Finish by saying UK must recognise Scotland's industries and potential emerging sectors, Scotland is at the forefront of the energy transition cutting age technologies presenting substantial opportunities for growth I look to hear more about investment into Scotland particularly in the sector.
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Amanda Martin Portrait Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
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Galloway about the importance of shipyards. Portsmouth was once a fantastic ship building city, from 1511 to 2014 with a strong tradition 1511 to 2014 with a strong tradition in building some of the greatest ships. Playing its part in repairing ships. Playing its part in repairing and refitting over 1,600 ships during the First World War. After Labour's commitment in 1998 to build Labour's commitment in 1998 to build invincible class aircraft carriers, in 2011 Pompey shipbuilders played a crucial role in the construction of the two new aircraft carriers by helping build 6,000 transactions of the midship of HMS Queen Elizabeth.

A ship I'm proud to say that my son is currently serving on. But like so many other parts of this country, Portsmouth has been let down. When under the previous government despite being the home of the Royal Navy, heart and industry from my city of ship building was cut away the in 2014 ship building was taken from Portsmouth and it's left a deep scar. The answer to the industrial industry being removed was to have a Minister for Portsmouth. Despite having three token ministers for Portsmouth given to us under the last government, charged with bringing economic growth to the city, Portsmouth under the Tories was failed again and again and again.

10,000 adults in Portsmouth North are living on the minimum wage. A stark reality showing a lack of economic growth and strategy in my city to ensure jobs for local people. As Nelson once said, England Is refreshing to see a Labour government identified the need for industrial strategy across the country. And whilst we may now return shipbuilding in it same volume, and whilst we may be in the south-east, we are unique. And we need a strategy and action. So can I ask the Minister, to outline what difference he sees in this government's modern strategy those that have been tried or should I say in the case of my city, not tried so that my city and the people in it can see a future of growth, investment, security, well-paid jobs for themselves, their families and future generations?

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This Government was elected eight months ago with a promise to go for
18:31
Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
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months ago with a promise to go for growth. But so far most of their policies seem designed to make life more difficult for business. The 25 billion national insurance jobs tax is a direct assault on the businesses that create jobs. The increasing capital gains tax, the introduction of the family business tax, the family farm tax, or discourage entrepreneurship. And the 1970s style employment laws or slowing business growth and discouraging job creation. Labour's proposed Employment Rights Bill will increase costs to businesses by £5 billion.

Born mostly by small businesses. Take D1 rights. If after less than one week it becomes apparent that a new employee is the wrong fit for your business, a complicated process must be followed to dismiss them. Now speaking as a former, they fully qualified solicitor, I know that the businesses that this will hit hardest are the ones with no HR department. Get the process wrong, and you could be taken to court for unfair dismissal. Another example is the obligation for the employer to notify an employee in writing that they have the right to join a trade union.

Is this something that you would reasonably expect from your local public, or the proprietor of a family newsagent? In what world is this really going to occur? And yet if it doesn't occur, these small businesses will be on the hook for an additional four week salary in damages. This will have brutal consequences for very many micro- businesses and will deter them from employing people. The bill also establishes an advisory board for the enforcement of labour market rules. This will be a body that advises the Secretary of State on matters relating to the labour market.

This board is an expensive and pointless exercise. The Secretary of State has plenty of avenues to collect advice already. There will be a computer process for selecting members of the panel, which will consume considerable amounts of Civil Service time and money. The members of the board will be paid hundreds of pounds a day. This is a sham process designed to allow the Secretary of State to handout sinecure is in order to receive advice on strategy from his union friends that he could have got for free.

The first instinct of this 1970s style old Labour government is to regulate, to stifle innovation and to back the unions over business every time. We conservatives will stand up the business and the people who make this economy work and will

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continue to champion its success. Good evening. I do hope that the

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Good evening. I do hope that the Member for Portsmouth North will pass on my thanks to her son for his pass on my thanks to her son for his service. I do wonder how Lord Nelson would feel about the increasing necessity with which we must align with our English Channel neighbours. Labour's National Insurance hike will hit small businesses, social will hit small businesses, social care providers and local GP services across the country. In my rural constituency, this national insurance rise will have dire consequences for its many historic villages and towns.

Increasingly in recent years, small businesses have been forced out of our historic high streets and replaced by soulless international chain stores and restaurants with the resources to cope with inflation. Over time our high streets are losing their unique character. Amongst those small businesses that will suffer our pubs. Pubs and breweries generator proximally £15 billion of tax
18:34
Cameron Thomas Portrait Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)
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revenues each year. According to UK hospitality, the economic value of hospitality, the economic value of the hospitality industry is worth £67 million in my constituency per year. Last month I visited the plough where I spoke with landlord Emma. She told me that one Emma. She told me that one establishment, this one establishment is worth £100,000 per establishment is worth £100,000 per establishment is worth £100,000 per year, to HMRC, but having been restructured and diversified to the nth degree, she is now accumulating debt to stay solvent.

The pub is also her home. How does the government expect to accrue revenue for taxes such businesses to oblivion? Small local businesses are vital to the unique identities of rural high streets across the country. They are often the backbone of local economies, and it's important we do not inadvertently force them to the wall. This policy will have an out sized impact. I hope the government will review this with economic policy in mind.

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Thank you. I offer my thanks to the chair of the business and trade Select Committee for delivering a powerful opening speech. And for securing this important debate. I absolutely agree with him that public procurement should be more focused to be buying British. And complete the agree with him that complete the agree with him that access to finance needs to be improved sooner rather than later so improved sooner rather than later so that our defence industries can upscale and respond to what is going upscale and respond to what is going to be a growing need.

The Department for Business and Trade is synonymous
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Clive Jones Portrait Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)
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with what Tim truly needs. Britain needs growth. Most of us in this chamber will agree with that. Businesses need confidence in the UK Businesses need confidence in the UK as a place to invest. We have a government that is staring government that is staring stagnation in the face. Failing to learn from the lessons of the Conservative Party economic vandalism that stretch household finances to the brink, and now finances to the brink, and now businesses are left bracing for further pain once the Chancellor's job tax comes into force.

I and many others are particularly concerned about the impact on the hospitality sector of the great British pub. Last Saturday in my constituency of Wokingham, I visited the station tap. There's been a pub on that site for 150 years. In between pulling one of the worst ever points in my life, they shared some of their concerns about the budget. The National Insurance contribution prize for just this one pub will add a net annual of £10,000 annual cost of their business every year.

It is no small wonder that in the British Chamber of Commerce survey 82% of firms surveyed said that National Insurance contribution rises will impact their business. Forcing them to change their plans. To make redundancies. And stop investing in people and in growth. National insurance increase were not the only issue with the budget had raised. It is overwhelmingly obvious that the business rates are broken. And the station tap owners asked me to give a clear message to the Minister.

They asked me to share that it is outdated, that it needs meaningful reform. And most importantly, it needs to be done sooner rather than later. We would not be in a position where I have a new business seemingly every week raising this point if the government were getting on with the work quickly. They are especially concerned about the planned reduction in relief for hospitality. It could cost independent Republicans 3,500 £3500 a year. Other businesses in Wokingham warned that the loss of the relief could see their businesses pushed to the brink of survival.

Wokingham has some of the best pubs in the country. The Queen's head, Queens Oaks, the Duke said, the water arms, to name but a few. The government should be championing them. What steps is the government taking to monitor the impact of the business rate relief reduction and the national insurance contribution rise on pubs? If the ministers monitoring reveals that this government's policy are leading to higher rates of business closure, or deterring investment, will they implore the Treasury to reverse the taxes and instead tax the big banks, implement a proper tax on oil and gas super profits and tackle tax avoidance while properly investing in HMRC? People across the UK are watching with concern as the United States engages in economic sabotage with the global economy.

In the UK, Britain's steel sector is bracing for the pain of Trumps tariffs which are set to be applied next week. This will negatively impact on manufacturers. Forcing price rises that will reduce sales to the United States. Can the Minister urgently update the House on his department's efforts to ensure that UK is excluded from the steel and aluminium tariffs? It would also be hopeful to understand that if these tariffs are applied, what retaliatory action with the government take? And if this will include some action against Elon Musk's Tesla.

Nobody wants a trade war. It's bad for business, consumers and for diplomatic relations. But we must ensure that if we are to be attacked that we simply don't take it on the chin. It's why I admire the confidence of our great Commonwealth and NATO ally. Donald Trump is trying to undo our Western alliance. Threatening to annex a nation who shares our king. And is seeking to weaken their economy as a staging ground for that proposed takeover. The Canadian Prime Minister and the leader of His Majesty Opposition in Canada are united in wanting to be around a negotiating table to get the deal done with the UK as soon as possible.

As for Canada becoming 1/51 state of the USA, I don't know any Canadians who are interested in

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that. Order. Can I remind the shadow spokesman to bring his remarks to a

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spokesman to bring his remarks to a close so that we do have time to hear from the Minister and the shadow Minister? Thank you. We need to take action

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Thank you. We need to take action to deepen bilateral trade with Canada. Does the Minister share Canada. Does the Minister share Canada's sentiment to strengthen our economies? Does he agree that we economies? Does he agree that we need to take tougher action to stand up for our Canadian friends? Will the UK return to the negotiating table and start working on a trade deal with Canada as soon as possible?

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Thank you. I shall try a short

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Thank you. I shall try a short and snappy. And start by congratulating the honourable member, right honourable member for cello and Solihull North. Securing cello and Solihull North. Securing this afternoon's debate. And it has allowed many voices to articulate allowed many voices to articulate the concerns that they are hearing from businesses in their constituency. And it's enabled many members to talk about the very great members to talk about the very great importance of growth. Growth is essential. We talk about the importance of defence and 2.5% spending on it, increasing to 2.7 and up to 3%, but of course we want the economy to grow at the same time.

And in the estimates that we see before us today, the Secretary of State has laid out the ambitious
18:43
Harriett Baldwin Portrait Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)
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goals that he has for his department. Delivering a department. Delivering a comprehensive industrial strategy, now I simply ask eight months in, when will businesses see that? Secondly, a plan to provide small Secondly, a plan to provide small businesses with tools and support. I simply ask eight months in, when will businesses, small businesses will businesses, small businesses will businesses, small businesses see that? Thirdly, a trade strategy that recognises that high quality trade deals are necessary to give businesses access to international markets, to boost jobs and deliver economic growth here.

And I simply ask when will businesses see a change on that front? And forth, delivering sweeping changes to employment law, and there sadly businesses have seen that. They have seen the sweeping changes that are outlined in the Employment Rights Bill that we will be scrutinising next week actually take us back to 1970s style employment laws. Adding £1 billion in cost just to the government's own cost base. And I wonder if you might at the end share a few words on whether in speaking, it would have been appropriate for those who receive contributions from unions to declare them in this debate? I think we've had an excellent debate, but I didn't hear any declarations of interest.

I heard from our benches some excellent contributions come from the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, from Bromley and Biggin Hill, from Dumfries & Galloway and from Bridgwater, in which they outlined and summarised the challenges that businesses are feeling up and down this country, and then in other contributions, from Tamworth, Dudley, Livingstone, Portsmouth North, Dundee, Tewkesbury and Wokingham, we had a range of different concerns that real businesses that create the wealth of businesses that create the wealth of Turn to trade I note that the supplementary estimates the Department marks an increase in subhead A4.

The account that includes first and foremost a trade policy implementation and negotiations group. It also explains in the note that this increase is owing to an international organisation within DBT which has brought our international strategy and develop and teams into this group from strategy and investment. So strategy investment meanwhile have been cut by almost the same amount, by which this account has been increased. I'm just wondering whether there is a little bit of smoke and mirrors going on there in terms of the amount that is being dedicated to increasing trade because increasing trade is one of the key routes to economic growth.

Our constituent businesses would really benefit from further opening of free trade. I note very welcome news that the Prime Minister talked to the president of America about Free Trade Agreement last week, but as at the end of January, no official or minister from the department had made any attempts to engage with the US administration on trade, and the department has chosen to abandon the position of chief trade negotiator. Which was either deliberate self-harm or baleful incompetence.

There was almost no public recognition by the department or its ministers of the U.K.'s accession to the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans- Pacific Partnership which does indeed trip off the tongue. There is growing evidence that instead of investing in these opportunities, the US, Canada, the fast-growing markets of Asia, the government is reverting to its ideological safeguard, relying on Brussels by developing a Trojan horse strategy to realign the UK with the European Union. In summary, is the department actually being given the tools that it needs to deliver on trade deals? If the government claims to have set their sights higher shouldn't resources reflect that? I wonder we asked worry we are seeing a classic example of big words, big ambitions, just saying the word growth but nothing that actually delivers growth.

It is now eight months to the day since those on the benches opposite entered government, how many businesses in this country can actually say that things have got better for them in these last eight months? How many are more confident, how many can say that they expect the trade situation facing the United Kingdom to improve?

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Firstly I would like to thank the Member for Bergen hardshell and Member for Bergen hardshell and solid Hull North -- the honourable solid Hull North -- the honourable members for securing this debate and the work they do in the business and trade Select Committee. I think the trade Select Committee. I think the on honourable men -- honourable member for Dumfries & Galloway littered his speech with football littered his speech with football analogies to the extent I wonder whether the Speaker was going to show a red card at some point.

But
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Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)
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show a red card at some point. But apparently not. Amongst his many criticisms of the government I would say we are not even at half-time yet so let's wait to we get to the end of the match. I think there were a number of very important and interesting contributions today, I will try and address as many as I can in the time that I've got. It is clear that the department is central for driving economic growth, I'm sure we will remain competitive on the global stage and making work pay for everyone.

The growth mission of this government has been our top priority since day one of taking office because we understand without economic growth we cannot invest in public services, nor can we raise living standards for hard-working families. To secure the growth we Are guided by four key principles. Building long-term stability, renewing our commitment to free and Fair Trade, using the investor journey and being a strategic growth focused state. We have wasted no time in getting to work on fixing the foundations of the economy. My department has been the forefront of these efforts, I will trying explain some of the things we've done is I answer some of the points made during the debate.

I will stop the comments from the Select Committee chair, I was pleased to hear that he found a terrific unity of purpose on the government's ambitions for growth. That is something we are very pleased to hear and I had him in paying tribute to the civil servants to help deliver that. He raised a number of important points, talked about getting the right workforce, as did the Member for workforce, as did the Member for Tamworth. In terms of that we are having a levy funded growth and skills offer which we believe will deliver greater flexibility for employers.

This is in line with the We want to see into good skilled jobs and growing industries. As a first step we will include shorter duration and foundation apprenticeships in targeted sectors, helping more people learn new high- quality skills at work, fuelling innovation in businesses across the country and providing high quality entry pathways for young people. We will be reducing the apprenticeship minimum duration in legislation to eight months until short apprenticeships are possible. Trailblazer friendships in green Trailblazer friendships in green energy, film and TV production will be amongst the first to be able to take advantage of these new offers.

In response to calls from employers assessment plans will now be less burdensome focusing on the must haves, occupational competency rather than testing any -- every knowledge, skill behaviour full stop the chairman of the Select Committee also made a very important point some been looking at very carefully, how we harmonise regulation and make sure we haven't got different departments talking to different people and saying different things, how we really streamline and make sure that it is a cohesive environment for businesses to invest.

You will be pleased to know I been meeting with other parliaments particularly Lord Vallance is been looking in the area of innovation. You have government growth boards which are looking at the missions this government are doing to ensure we do have that cross departmental grip on matters. He also along with the honourable members the Dudley and Tamworth ask about how we can use the British Business Bank to help businesses access finance, that's something we are absolutely looking very closely at.

It is of course operationally independent but we are working with them to ensure businesses are able to navigate the markets better and give them clear information and options available to them. There is a package to encourage tech adoption for SMEs, and of course the British growth partnership we hope will get their pension funded investment into some of the U.K.'s fastest growing companies. The Select Committee chair did also ask specifically about the figure of 126.7 billion million pounds, my understanding is that is a result of a revaluation of the investment portfolio the department has that is a standard process, I'm happy to put him in touch with officials from more detailed investigation on that if he requires it.

The Member for Grangemouth... The Member for Livingston asked about the Grangemouth refinery and of course it is deeply regrettable that we've had to step in and put some plans in place there. There is £100 million place there. There is £100 million from Falkirk in the great mouse growth deal which will help build the local economy, 1.5 million project as well to look at credible long-term industrial options for the site which we expect to report in the spring of course the National Wealth Fund will provide £200 million of growth opportunities for the area.

The Member for Portsmouth I think highlighted the devastating impact that the lack of strategy can have on a community of hers in Portsmouth North, I also thank and join the position members and thanking her son for his service in defence of our nation. She will be pleased to know that our industrial strategy Green Paper invest 2035 sets out the eight key growth driving sectors we want to channel investment and support to over the long-term. We want to unleash the full potential of these party sectors to spur growth, spread wealth and drive up employment across all four nations of the UK each of the industries will have its own sector plan setting out how we intend to support businesses to build on existing successes and unlock new opportunities.

The sector plans are being designed in partnership with businesses, devolved governments, regions and other key partners. Industrial strategy alongside sector plans for the growth driving sectors will be published later this year aligned to

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the multi-year spending review. I thank the Minister for giving way. He is making an excellent speech setting out the ambitious plans this government has. Lasius plans this government has. Lasius looking at the industrial strategy for those eight growth areas, and I make a pitch for him to remember those foundational industries that sit below that, including ceramics because without the ceramics and the because without the ceramics and the refractories, without those finance -- foundational industries delivering the growth the department wants in those eight high-growth

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areas. Plebeian possible. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and I knew as soon as he rose to speak he would raise the ceramics industry such is his record of championing that industry and I will certainly pass his comments back to the relevant minister. I will give way one more time full stop

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I have personal experienced the power working in industry of partnership between government and partnership between government and industry were government sets clear, powerful goals and then collaborates powerful goals and then collaborates with industry to deliver them. That in my experience really fuels in my experience really fuels innovation is the key impact of us delivering the growth. Does he agree with me the partnership between industry were government sets goals and we work together to deliver them and we work together to deliver them is key to delivering a successful industrial strategy? I absolutely agree with my noble friend that is indeed what we are attempting to deliver with our industrial strategy, engagement is continuing with businesses in respect of that, publication is I believe going to be in the late spring and we will ensure that it is a very successful launch.

I will draw my comments to a conclusion. I would just acknowledge the barrages criticism from the benches opposite on the Employment Rights Bill, at that point I will of course refer to my register of interests just to make sure the shadow minister is not disappointed, no doubt we will debate that in more detail next week but I do hope that opposition members have actually They kept talking about going back to the 1970s and actually the legislation that was being repealed in that bill was from 2023 and 2016, so we are properly going back to 2015 at best.

I hope they get some better lines before we get to report stage. In conclusion we are making the UK a more attractive and easier place to invest and do business for our expanded office for investment, our sectors of the future are being emboldened through a modern industrial strategy ensuring we have the right environment and skills for them to innovate, invest and create SMEs are being supported by capital and conditions they need to thrive. Millions of employers are being afforded greater protections at work so they can employ their families might support their families and enjoy a high standard of living because we are determined to end the race to the bottom.

I thank all members for contributing to this debate and the important work of the business and trade Select Committee I look forward to continuing to work with them moving forward and I commend these estimates to the House.
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Liam Byrne Portrait Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)
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Liam Byrne to windup. excellent debate and own incredibly grateful once again to the backbench committee for ensuring that we've had some time spent together debating some of the issues at stake. I refer to brilliant speeches across the House and in the way my ambitions from this debate been satisfied because I wanted to help ensure we are able to do both at the report that we write on the priorities and the business community but also in securing this debate today is that here in this chamber, here in this place here in the corridors of power we actually heard from business voices.

I don't think that we give enough time, I don't think we give enough space, I don't think we give enough attention to actually hearing from business voices, hearing from the challenges in boardrooms and shop floors stop I think if we did that bit more we would actually surprise ourselves by just seeing, hearing how much consensus there is in this country about the big moves in which we move forward. We have to recognise for those economic historians amongst us, that we are now at a moment in our history, and these moments occur about every 30 or 40 years, where we have a series of geopolitical shocks where we then have a big and agonising debate about whether the country is in decline, whether it's all going to hell, or actually whether there is a different way forward and we rally together and choose to build a different kind of sovereign capabilities together as a country.

Inevitably that then has consequences for the time of -- type estate that emerges from that. We went through this in the 1980s and in the 1940s and we went through it after World War I as well. We are having to conduct that argument now at the moment when it is very clear that the United States, that great power, that great ally of ours that built the multilateral system getting in 1944 in San Francisco and then through to the end of World War II, it is quite clear now that America in the words of Joseph Chamberlain is a weary tighten.

No longer able to grasp all of its fate. We got to recognise that that for those of us who support that multilateral rules-based order we are going to have to step up. That will be difficult, expensive, but it's going to bring new opportunities for business, growth and crucially for our constituents to earn a good life.
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Caroline Nokes Portrait Deputy Speaker-Remaining orders of the day Rt Hon Caroline Nokes MP (Romsey and Southampton North, Conservative)
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Estimate for 2024 to 25 for the foreign Commonwealth of office, which was debated today. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to the question on the Supplementary Estimate for 2024/25 for the Department for Business and Trade, which was debated today. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

With the leave of the House, I will put the questions on motions three to eight together. Minister to move formally?

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Move formally. The question is motions three to eight as in the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Bill order to be brought in upon the motions relating to excesses 23/24 supplement estimates 24/25, and vote supplement estimates 24/25, and vote on account 25/26. He will prepare

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and bring the bill? The Chairman of Ways and Means, the chancellor of the exchequer, Darren Jones, Emma Reynolds and

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Supply Supply and Supply and appropriation anticipation and adjustments bill.

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anticipation and adjustments bill. Second reading what day? Tomorrow.

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Second reading tomorrow. Motion

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number nine on retained EU law reform, ministered to me. I beg to move. The question is as on the order

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The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. I can inform the House that the Select Committee on statutory instruments has considered the orders on motions nine and 10 on capital gains tax. And determined that they raise no issues which need to be reported to the House. Motion Number Ten on capital gains tax, ministered to move?

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I beg to move. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the

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"No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion number 11 on capital gains tax, ministered to move? I beg to move. The question is as on the order

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The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it, the "No." I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Petition.
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Josh Newbury Portrait Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)
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unable to produce insulin, meaning those with the condition are required to carefully monitor their blood glucose levels and administer insulin. As we know that delicate balance demands constant attention. Many of us have the luxury of going Many of us have the luxury of going out for dinner, choosing a meal based on what we like the sound of that shameful in my case, often too that shameful in my case, often too little for the sugar content, calories or how our bodies will digest it. However for those with type 1 diabetes, that blissful ignorance simply is not an option.

For them, life revolves around counting calories and insulin. A child with type 1 diabetes at the age of five faces up to 19,000 injections and 50,000 finger prick blood tests by the time they are 18. Every moment of every day is a balancing act between food, activity

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and insulin. Festival can I commend the honourable gentleman. I spoke to him honourable gentleman. I spoke to him outside there, and he knows what I am going to say first type 2 diabetic and for almost 20 years. diabetic and for almost 20 years. Understand very well the fact that blood take as part and parcel of daily life, and subsequently understand that for those who suffer from an eating disorder and constant food noise needs to be addressed with the professional and currently diabetic clinics.

They can with the resources to deal with this command with the honourable gentleman agree with me we need to have those mental health support links for diabetics throughout all the United Kingdom?

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Thank you. And it's a pleasure to take my first intervention from the honourable gentleman. And I would honourable gentleman. And I would like to absolutely pay tribute to campaigning he's done on this issue and the personal experience he brings to this House. I will come in brings to this House. I will come in a bit late in my speech to my experience of mental health services, but absolutely I agree services, but absolutely I agree with him that we need to make sure that people with type 1 and type 2 diabetes have the support with diabetes have the support with mental health in managing their condition that they need.

So as I condition that they need. So as I was saying, for some with type 1 diabetes, this morphs into a deeper challenge, disordered eating. It's not difficult to see how that can happen. Given strict attention to diet and nutritional information that type 1 diabetes necessitates, unhealthily restrictive food can sometimes at least to begin with come indistinguishable from healthy diabetes management. And we know that in some cases, one of the side effects of insulin-based treatment can be weight gain. That leaves some people type 1 diabetes to realise that by restricting the insulin intake or even stopping it altogether, they can essentially eat what they like and lose weight.

But the medical consequences of that are stark, including kidney problems, bone wastage, amputations, blindness, and even death. One of the most insidious aspects of tired is how it can be difficult to identify and Tellers devastating consequences for both physical and mental health begin to manifest themselves. People suffering with tired often say that the isolation that comes with trying to navigate both chronic illness and disordered eating is unimaginable for anyone

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who hasn't experienced it. As someone with type 1 diabetes myself, having only been type myself, having only been type diagnosed four years ago, I completely understand the feeling of isolation, having diabetes let alone isolation, having diabetes let alone having to deal with disordered eating itself. So would my eating itself. So would my honourable friend agree with me we needed to stigmatise both conditions; ensure the right support

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for patients? Absolutely I completely agree with the honourable lady command I thank her for the lift experience thank her for the lift experience she brings to this House and how candid she's been with sharing her expenses, and I couldn't agree with her more. But many people are falling through the cracks of a system that fails to recognise the unique needs of people who live with both type 1 diabetes and disordered eating forced and while disordered eating and those with type 1 is sometimes referred to niche, is becoming increasingly clear that it is often missed.

Evidence suggests up to 40% of women girls and up to 15% of men and boys with type 1 experience some form disordered eating. That's 1/4 of the 400,000 people in the UK with type 1.

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Absolutely happy to give way. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He makes a very important point that this affects so many people, and I have direct many people, and I have direct family experience of this with a family experience of this with a family member who had type 1 diabetes, and back then it was referred to as diarrhoea, and wasn't -- dire Bellini. The medical professions didn't accept that it professions didn't accept that it was a condition. Thus my honourable friend agree with me that part of the way we need to tackle this is by recognising how much of an impact it can have on all of our families across the country, and that's the first step to making sure people get

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the support they need. Absolutely I agree with my honourable friend that we need far better awareness of this condition and certainly better support for people affected and their families, and I will certainly come into that and I will certainly come into that a little later in my remarks. A key issue we still face as my honourable friend referenced is the absence of internationally recognised criteria internationally recognised criteria for T1DE which hamper psychic diagnosis and clarification as well diagnosis and clarification as well as calibration and research.

Within our NHS, fantastic pockets of practice have existed for a long time, but overall the current system often doesn't take account of the unique challenges faced by people with T1DE. Eating disorder specialist might lack the knowledge of diabetes management while diabetes care teams may not be equipped to deal with eating disorders for the selling of services means people with T1DE sometimes come up against exclusion criteria and end up disengaging from services at a critical point in their condition.

The need for joint upper specs services is where the five NHS England tie pilot sites coming. These trailblazing projects combining diabetes and eating disorder support into one service helping people to recover faster from T1DE and reducing repeated hospital admissions for top that's where my interest in T1DE comes in. In a past life I worked in the communications team at the Coventry and Warwickshire partnership NHS Trust, and when it was selected as one of the five second wave of pilot sites, had a privilege of working on preparations for the launch of the new service.

There are sadly moved on before the service was launched, this was a highlight of my years working for our NHS. What I learned about T1DE in those few months has stayed with me and the experience and expertise and dedication of Doctor Tony Winston whose team at the Aspen Centre in Warwick is absolutely to be commended. I like to pay tribute to CW PT and all the pilot sites for the pioneering work they've done to develop the services from the ground up, co-designing them with patients and last been heard and treated.

Diabetes UK have told me they have supported NHS England in that of element of these pilots. And they are calling for long-term funding to ensure the best practice is shared and most importantly, support is offered the services on a sustainable footing.

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I think in for giving way, and also for securing this important debate. Type 1 is incredibly demanding issue to live with. It's a game of numbers, and as such can be greatly helped by technology which is developing rapidly. So would like is developing rapidly. So would like to take this opportunity to get and how important it is that the government makes sure there is universal access to these transformative technologies for all transformative technologies for all who are insulin-dependent diabetes.

But even if your iPhone can be your But even if your iPhone can be your pancreas, type 1 diabetes is unique in its constant psychological demands, and also invades your life socially as well as practically. And of course that means that type 1 combined with disordered eating is a perfect storm. So do they agree with me that it's really important that we provide not just practical but emotional support that is integrated around not just the individual but also the family to provide for that

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severe depth of the condition. Thank you. I completely agree with my honourable friend's comments on the need for technological on the need for technological advancement. And I will come unto that later in my comments on support for the family, but I think that is for the family, but I think that is absolutely critical to have support network around people with T1DE. To the credit of the last government, the recognise the need for T1DE specific services but they now they are little to pilots to close in are little to pilots to close in April last year.

They are loud. We've heard stories of patients who We've heard stories of patients who have suffered as a result of this cliff edge. Having inherited a highly uncertain and underfunded position, I very much welcome the government's recent announcement of the 12 month extension of the ongoing pilots. That will ensure sufficient patient numbers and more importantly, safeguard vital services that already exist. I'd encourage the Department the Health and Social Care to seek additional investment through the Spending Review because now the services have been up and running for over two years, our focus should turn to building up a national office of the people with T1DE in parts of the country like Staffordshire can benefit for the first time.

Another vital effort will be raising awareness of T1DE, particular in general practice and eating disorder services to ensure that people with both conditions receive tailored care. This is insoluble call for training for healthcare professionals about rape greater recognition of the issue within the system as a whole. The cost of capability show the convocation stemming from health illnesses in people long-term physical conditions increases the cost of care by an June 2022 a parliamentary enquiry into tied Mac was called, is very ably chaired by Theresa May both members of this House was at this point I would like to mention the work of the honourable member Harrogate & Knaresborough he wrote to report in his time working for JD RF.

The enquiry gathered evidence from experts and those with the experience, researchers and voluntary sector leaders. The report was launched in January of last year in key findings included the need for international diagnosis criteria, updated nice guidelines, continuation of type -- funding, continuation of type -- funding, Measure to reach every part of the country. I would urge the government to look at increasing awareness and training particularly as honourable friends of mentioned giving calories despite families and carers the support they need to be to play their part in early intervention and treatment pathways.

Diabetes UK are currently funding a research project into the prevention of tide in children, the test out and intervention designed to help parents and carers recognise signs of unhealthy eating behaviours will top the source of great work going on for us to build on. I will conclude by thanking the NHS pilot projects for their work, breakthrough T1 DN diabetes UK for the briefings they have given me, and all of the members who contributed to this debate. We must do everything we can to support people with type 1 diabetes and disorder eating.

This issue is not small, it's not rare, and it deserves our attention in this place. By raising awareness and integrating services and providing support for families we can help people overcome tied and be -- lead healthier, happier lives.

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I would like to start by thanking my honourable friend member for my honourable friend member for Cannock Chase. This debate. All of those honourable members that have those honourable members that have contributed, my honourable friend from Strangford who is rightly from Strangford who is rightly making his exit, but remains in his making his exit, but remains in his place. He spoke about mental health, and the honourable member for South Northamptonshire who spoke about the stigmatisation for disordered eating and for type 1 diabetes, I would just like to say that with her sharing her diagnosis today in this place she is making a huge contribution to be able to work towards that the stigmatisation and I thank for that.

My honourable friend the Member for Gloucester also shared his family story which is heartbreaking and it really shows us that these issues are impacting on people. I am a friend the Member for Worcester he talked about technological advancement and technological advancement and support. As the honourable member outlined in his remarks type 1 diabetes and disordered eating or tied is not a widely known condition and yet it can essentially affect up to one third of people with type 1 diabetes.

People with it find so strapped in a battle between needing to control their diabetes with insulin and trying to control their weight in an unhealthy way. This is a vicious cycle and people with experience increase in health and sadly an increased chance of early death. Studies have shown that people with it he restrict insulin how the mortality rate over three times higher than those who did not. We should pay tribute to the diabetes charities who are doing so much for people living with diabetes across the UK and also tackling this problem head on.

Beat eating disorders which has dedicated helplines for people struggling with this condition, break a lot -- right through to 1D which looks at research to cure treat and prevent type 1 diabetes and its symptoms. An diabetes UK which does a fantastic job of articulating the community's needs to government.

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I thank the Minister for giving way and I would like to congratulate my honourable friend the honourable member for Cannock Chase on skills member for Cannock Chase on skills debate. I was just wondered as mentioned I used to work for the type 1 diabetes charity GD RF as it want was then. We still regularly want was then. We still regularly have meetings with ministers in the have meetings with ministers in the palm the health and one of the key palm the health and one of the key things I would like to see and I'm sure member is across this House would like to see would be the new government take up the reporting those recommendations from that those recommendations from that report from Theresa May and George Howarth and I wonder if the Minister might be agree to meet with the APPG for diabetes and see how we can see these recommendations and permitted.



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I thank the honourable member for his intervention and I'm more than happy to meet with the APPG to happy to meet with the APPG to discuss those matters. I was really moved to read about Lindsay's story on the diabetes UK website. One thing that really stood out to me was from her experience of turning 18 and moving to an adult clinic, 18 and moving to an adult clinic, she said that she felt and I quote, I became a number in the system I became a number in the system rather than a patient.

Every time I went I saw a different team, I would have to explain my entire medical history. I felt like it wasn't worth my time and I certainly wasn't going to have a conversation about what was going on people I didn't know. Actually after a few appointments Lindsay stopped going. Tied cuts across diabetes and mental health care. I think Lindsay's interactions with the NHS show that we must never treat patients like interchangeable statistics. Bouncing around a cold system that doesn't seem to care for them.

Instead, each patient should benefit from a unique, joined up approach. NHS England to their credit has recognised there is an unmet need for better treatment T1DE of and as my honourable friend has recognise they have begun a pilot of treating eating disorders two of which came on in 2019. The aim of these pilots was to develop the evidence base around how best to manage T1DE by testing an integrated pathway. This means that patients like Lindsay would not be obliged to bring out their medical history on every visit.

In the past five years, NHS England has expanded on the original pilots. With funding extended for T1DE five pilot sites until March 2026. To ensure there are sufficient patient numbers for us to get full picture of what is happening on the ground and I thank my noble friend for his contribution to those pilots. While these pilots are gathering evidence NHS England is looking carefully at the findings with a view to developing a future national strategy. Each of those five new pilot areas is submitting quarterly data to the evaluation.

The intend to publish their analysis of this data by September this year.

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Thank you for a very comprehensive helpful response to when I first came to the House in when I first came to the House in 2015 there was a diabetes plan for the whole of the kingdom coming out the whole of the kingdom coming out of Westminster for the meat regions together. It came to an end, highways hoped that plan would come again together. With the Minister again together. With the Minister consider having a diabetes plan for all of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland working together, it could be the highest

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number, I understand that type 1 diabetes anywhere near to kingdom in Northern Ireland. I thank the honourable member for his intervention as I'm sure he is more than aware obviously health is a devolved matter, however I'm more than happy to look at those issues he has raised and come back to him on them. This data that the pilots will be sharing is going to be shared with all of the Integrated Care Boards as well so that we can build up case for more investment in tied -- T1DE from ICB budgets.

I'm looking at the ways NHS England can support them in the way they commission services. These pilot sites are doing critical work while the NHS is supporting people diabetes to live well. Essential to this is making sure patients have access to annual reviews that cover eight processes recommended by the nationality care excellence. We know that people who couldn't attend diabetes reviews have much better outcomes for emergency hospital admissions, amputations and mortality that whites right that the NHS is investing £14.5 million over the next two years will top supporting up to 140,000 people between the ages of 18 and 39 to receive additional tailored health checks from healthcare staff.

This will include vital support to breakdown any stigma associated with diabetes. While helping them to manage their condition from blood sugar level control and weight management to minimising the risk of heart disease. Technology has been touched upon place a critical role in helping people with diabetes live healthier lives. There is great potential to do the same for people T1DE with. NICE has made positive Continual glucose monitoring and hybrid closed-loop technology to adults and children with type I and type 2 diabetes.

Meaning that these treatments are now offered on the NHS. Over two thirds of people with type 1 diabetes currently use glucose monitoring to help manage their condition, and following NICE's recommendation on hybrid closed-loop systems NHS has developed a five year national strategy that began in April last year I know that five years will seem like a long time too many of those young people struggling with this condition here and now. But the NHS does need an implementation period to ensure we have all the right people with the right skills within the specialist adult services.

Because we can't compromise an inch on safety NHS trusts should only ever provide hybrid closed-loop if the specialist trained clinical staff experienced in using insulin pumps and continuous glucose monitors are in

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place. I can speak from personal

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I can speak from personal experience on the power of hybrid closed-loop systems and the safety they present from day one compared to conventional treatment with to conventional treatment with injections. I was would encourage injections. I was would encourage To sport everywhere possible to use connected to PF forums or any other vehicles that can be imagined to accelerate that deployment of hybrid

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accelerate that deployment of hybrid closed-loop technology as fast as we possibly can full stop I thank him for his that intervention that needs sharing of his lived experience and I am more than happy to consider suggestions than happy to consider suggestions of his and discuss them further. Finally I would like to touch on the encouraging work of the early surveillance for autoimmune
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Ashley Dalton Portrait Ashley Dalton MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (West Lancashire, Labour)
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diabetes. Type 1 diabetes is not diabetes. Type 1 diabetes is not preventable but the sooner we reach people the sooner we can care for them. Elsa is a children's screening them. Elsa is a children's screening program that can detect type 1 diabetes with a simple finger stick blood test. By looking at for antibodies that are associated with a high risk of developing diabetes. a high risk of developing diabetes. It launched in November 2022 and already over 20,000 children have already over 20,000 children have taken part.

The study made a huge effort to screen the more by February, and we are still waiting to hear if this ambitious target has been reached. I would be pleased to hear that keep my honourable friend in the House update on this. In closing it is clear T1DE that is a serious and often overlooked condition that requires more integrated and compassionate approach to care. The work being done through NHS pilot programs, investment in diabetes management and advances in technology all represent meaningful progress.

But there is still much more to do, it is vital that we continue to build on the evidence gathered from these initiatives to ensure that people T1DE with receive the tailored consistent and supportive care they deserve. No patient should feel like a number in the system or be forced to navigate a fragmented approach to their health. By working together through government, the NHS, the charities, we can ensure that people T1DE with receive the right support at the right time and I look forward to working with my honourable friend

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to get this done. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many -- As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No".. The "Ayes"
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None Portrait Oral questions: Scotland
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None Portrait Q1. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of the Government’s defence spending plans on Scotland. (902923)
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Order we Order we start Order we start with Order we start with questions Order we start with questions to the Secretary of State. Then.

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Question number one Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. I'm sure the whole house with want to pay
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This debate has concluded
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