Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, if she will make a statement on the potential implications for the UK film industry of the United States’ proposed 100 per cent tariff on foreign-produced films

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12:38

To ask the Minister if he will make a statement on the potential implications for the UK film industry of the United States

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Foreign produced films. Is the House will be aware, President Trump announced on Sunday that he had authorised the commerce that he had authorised the commerce department to initiate tariffs on all movies produced in foreign lands. He has made other comments lands. He has made other comments since. This is a very fluid situation and we will continue to situation and we will continue to take a calm and steady approach. I spent most of Monday talking to UK spent most of Monday talking to UK and US filmmakers and the general secretary amongst others and I can tell the House we are already in active discussions with the top of active discussions with the top of the US administration on the subject.

We are working hard to establish what might be proposed, if anything and to make sure our world anything and to make sure our world beating creative industries are protected. We are committed to ensuring the film industry can continue to thrive and create jobs continue to thrive and create jobs across the UK. UK film and television generate production spend of £5.6 billion in 2024 and we want to work with domestic industry and international partners to continue international partners to continue to build on that success.

We are clear that the deep ties between the US and UK film industries provide mutual benefits to both countries. Productions are by their nature international partnerships which are often developed and created across different countries and locations. US movies are often naughty national because US movies earn more overseas than they do domestically in the USA. The UK and US both benefit from the likes of Star Wars and Mission impossible films in the UK, just as we benefit from the close relationship between our producers, talent and crew.

Our countries have a long history of working together to drive growth in the sectors, from Cary Grant to Hugh Grant and Alfred Cary Grant to Hugh Grant and Alfred Hitchcock to Christopher Nolan stop British talent has often been at the forefront of the US sector and I am forefront of the US sector and I am sure this will continue in the years ahead. I was once told by a film producer, never judge a film by the producer, never judge a film by the first 10 minutes.

I think we can say the same of this.

12:40

Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)

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I thank the Minister for his answer. We have learned over the weekend that the president's administration intends to impose the 100 percent tariff on all films produced outside of the US. It is understood he has instructed this policy to begin being implemented immediately. I recognise that we see this as a leading industry, worth billions here and supporting 95,000 jobs up and down the country. It shows the British values and talent we have and some of the most amazing settings for so many films of different genres.

I am glad they are working to ensure that all is done to give confidence to our directors, actors, screenwriters, producers that they are thinking about them. For both independent filmmakers and major studios, this action could result in cancelled projects, lost investment and significant decline investment and significant decline in UK film exports which is especially hard given they are still recovering after the COVID pandemic. I have to say it is disappointing that the government failed to start the negotiations with President Trump's team for five months after the election and fired Britain's top trade negotiator and it is difficult Approach could have led to a Approach could have led to a different outcome.

Nevertheless, the priority is to protect the film industry. What assessment has he made of the potential impact on the UK film sector? What immediate steps UK film sector? What immediate steps is the government taking to engage with the US and ensure that investment in UK facilities is highlighted comes from many US businesses that will be affected? What contingency plan is preferred What contingency plan is preferred in the instance no contingency plan in the instance no contingency plan can't be assured? What assessment have they made of the drastic cut to the BBC's content that sells to the US market may have on the licensing fee?

12:42

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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One of the reasons we have a strong film and television sector in the UK is because of the joint policy that has been adopted across several years by Conservative and Labour administrations which is to make sure that we have very competitive tax credits and I pay tribute to the work done by the previous government that we were able to enhance when we brought in new tariff tax credits in the budget just before Christmas. We are not in favour of bringing in tariffs.

In 1947 the -- UK Labour government did bring in tariffs on US films. It did not go well as a strategy because the US banned exports of UK films and we ended up watching Bennett her repeatedly. However what was successful in 1947 and 1940 -- 1948 was that we invested in the British film production system. I think that is the pattern we want to adopt. But let me be clear, we believe there are mutual benefits to both of us if we continue on the path we selected.

I'm not sure precisely what is intended. I do not know what a telephone service would look like. Do not know if it is intended that that will be on movie theatres. The danger for that is already in the US they have two major problems with the US industry, one is distribution costs and that... If they went down that route it could lead to heavy problems for them. The other problem is the high cost of making movies in the USA. But most films these days are international collaborations of some kind and we want to maintain that.

Even Paddington, I'm looking at the honourable gentleman over there because I suspect he is about to mention it. Even Paddington, which was a British production, but which was a British production, but made by studio Canal, it had Spanish actors as well as British actors. actors as well as British actors. This is just a fact of modern films. They are multinational and that is one of their strengths. I do not one of their strengths. I do not think Paddington ever went to Peru.

I do not think they filmed any improve and I'm told by my Peruvian improve and I'm told by my Peruvian friends that there are not any bears in Peru.

12:45

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Can I welcome the Minister's measured and thoughtful response to this latest announcement by this latest announcement by President Trump and his full throated support for the British film industry. He will be aware that film industry. He will be aware that in my constituency in Hackney South in my constituency in Hackney South in my constituency in Hackney South and Shoreditch and the area, we are championing high-end television that championing high-end television that is often produced and filmed in Hackney, and those creative industries in my constituency, can industries in my constituency, can he ensure there is good communication from the government about these negotiations because it about these negotiations because it is creating a good deal of uncertainty? uncertainty?

12:46

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I'm grateful. I know Hackney very well. I used to be a councillor in Hackney. It is not just London but the whole of the UK that is a phenomenal place to make a movie phenomenal place to make a movie because we have some of the best scenery, buildings, it is not just Bath that gets used endlessly for lots of films but when I visited lots of films but when I visited there a couple of weeks ago, I think there a couple of weeks ago, I think people were -- listing a long list of films.

But she is right that what is the difference between making Britain or making a movie? Some of Britain or making a movie? Some of these things, the pattern is these things, the pattern is similar, international collaboration is important because it delivers is important because it delivers

12:46

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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British film really is the marmalade sandwich and a lunchbox of creative industries. He gave as James Bond, Paddington, Harry Potter, and Monty Python. Donald Trump Lee thinks he is a godlike figure in our benches we are clear figure in our benches we are clear that he is not a messiah but a very naughty boy. He had his way we will be watching Harry Potter and the be watching Harry Potter and the prison of Alcatraz or perhaps the Executive Order of the Phoenix.

Can Executive Order of the Phoenix. Can Alyssa confirm all options will be on the table to protect our film industry include working with allies like Canada and Australia have shown like Canada and Australia have shown strength in recent weeks by voting anti-Trump? Would he commit to immediate meeting with film industry leaders in the UK to coordinate a response? Will the government backed our world leading creatives budding our world leading creatives budding the right thing on AIM copyright?

12:47

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I could have predicted half the question because only Paddington would get in there. The serious point, I am meeting with industry tomorrow afternoon. I look forward to understanding from them what precise concerns they may have as well as the obvious concerns that all of us share. I want to slightly caution against this word which has been used I think three times now that President Trump announced something. A clear policy has not been announced. I think we need to be careful about that because it is difficult to see, as I said earlier, how you would impose a tariff on a service, or on films in this way.

I want to be just careful and precise about the way we move forward on this. I have been asked what we are doing. We have already had people in doing. We have already had people in Washington DC talking with people in the Trump Administration at the highest level, and we will progress that. Of course we want to that. Of course we want to everything we can to preserve the strength of the industry. strength of the industry. Thank you Mr Speaker. One of my little sisters works in the UK film and TV industry and I'm immensely proud of her.

Can I urge the Minister to look at how we bolster home-made film and TV particularly in Northumberland where we have some wonderful landscapes. We lost Sycamore Gap a few years ago which provided a memorable backdrop. We have Hadrian's Wall and too often I see young people have to leave the

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north-east to get great opportunities elsewhere in the UK. It is an externally well-made point. I would add to it something I point. I would add to it something I said when I came before the select committee, we might hear from shortly. Which is that I am very shortly. Which is that I am very keen on having a mixed economy in the British film industry. Sometimes we will be making films for other

12:49

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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we will be making films for other markets, sometimes we will be making films which are predominantly British stories telling about the way we are in this country, selling them around the world stop and where the IP remains British production company. It is that makes that we need to achieve. I should say also, in response to the honourable gentleman, talked about our relationship with the US, the Secretary of State in the last few weeks was in India. And she wants to make sure that we have a much stronger relationship with India as well, of the fastest-growing economies in the world.

We think we

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can do a great deal more in that film production space as well. Chair of the select committee.

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There is no doubt that this speculation will cause huge worry to those working in British film production. He says it also production. He says it also highlights once again the importance of bolstering British screen sector. We did recommend steps to deliver this in a recent Select Committee report. Within days of publishing report. Within days of publishing that report, his department had already asked for and extension with which to respond. This weekend we

12:50

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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which to respond. This weekend we heard rumours that the whole department is up for the chop and his government. I'm not sure whether that is before or after you sacrificed our creative industries on the altar of AI. What I want to know from the Minister, he is a brilliant commune cater and I know deep in his heart he cares passionately about this. But when will he show some grip and show some action on behalf of our world leading creative industries and in particular our screen sector?

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I hope you will accept that there are areas where I have taken very deliberate action on the back of recommendations from her Select recommendations from her Select Committee, not least in relation to Committee, not least in relation to a levy on gig and arena tickets to fund support for small music venues. I take her point, I wasn't aware that we had asked for an extension. We will get on with providing a response to her as quickly as possible. It was an excellent possible.

It was an excellent report. Lots of good things that I want to take forward. Probably won't be able to do everything. But I

12:51

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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be able to do everything. But I think one of the things that is very important that we focus on is skills in the UK screen industry. This has been raised repeatedly with me. I want every kid in the country to have a chance to work in the creative industries, trading in film and high-end television. Many of them would not think it was a possibility for them. So we need to transform that whole pathway into those skills in the industry, and I know it is something the select he

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has raised. To Whether it is the fantastic

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Whether it is the fantastic studios across the road or access to fantastic filming locations, or

12:52

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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fantastic filming locations, or because of our incredible transport links, my constituency is increasingly becoming a GOTO location for film industry. Just as the Minster has touched on, we do need to see more emphasis placed on home-grown skills, so young people in Bracknell can access the fantastic opportunities the film sector offers. Could he say a bit more about what this government is going to do to Break Down Barriers to Opportunity to the film industry?

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We have invested significant amounts of money already in the skills sector, and more came as a skills sector, and more came as a result of the budget this year. He is quite right that his patch is a is quite right that his patch is a GOTO area for film production. One of the reasons that US companies and for that matter companies from many

12:53

Daisy Cooper MP (St Albans, Liberal Democrat)

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for that matter companies from many parts around the world come to the UK to make films is because of the skills that we have in the UK. We have some of the best cinematographers and technical experts and designers, as one of the acting talent stop this means it is possible to make a very convincing film in the UK more effectively and cheaper than in many other places. We are determined to make sure that the UK remains the best place in the world to make movies.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Film studios are a really important part of our economy in Hertfordshire. of our economy in Hertfordshire. They give opportunities and jobs and

12:53

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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They give opportunities and jobs and apprenticeships and work experience to people in my constituency of St Albans. As the Minister has recognised, it is not clear how the tariffs will operate, and many are unworkable. If America does go ahead and we have to take action in this country to make sure our film industry is competitive, can I urge him to please look at the business rates meeting with the Treasury? Near to me sky studios in Elstree have seen that business rates go up by over 600%.

It is now 30% of the operating cost. I encourage the Minister to look at that as one measure we can tackle to make sure we protect our creative industries

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in the film sector here. She makes a good point that has been raised with me by several others. We may certain special others. We may certain special provision in the Budget to ensure there is business rates for studios protected until 2024. I think that is a good measure. I know some of the large ones are finding it more the large ones are finding it more difficult. I'm happy to continue looking at that. Let me read a statistic that may be helpful. statistic that may be helpful.

According to the Motion Picture Association of the US, their report published in January says that published in January says that Category 3, US earned $22.6 billion Category 3, US earned $22.6 billion in film and television exports. It's services trade surplus was $15.3

12:55

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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services trade surplus was $15.3 billion. 6% of the total US trade surplus in services. It is mutually beneficial for the US and the UK to remain with the system that we have without tariffs.

12:55

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. As you will be aware hollow was the birthplace of Rupert grinned, Jo Joyner, Rick male, and I have to mention an up- and-coming star. It has recently doubled for Paris in an episode of The Crown. Does the Minister agree with me that Harlow as well as the rest of the UK is a huge amount of talent, and far from relying on US importing of films, we produce some fantastic films in this country, and our film industry is growing, and

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what can this government do to support it to continue to grow and thrive? In particular, he is quite right

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In particular, he is quite right about Harlow. I would argue many different parts of the UK that have

12:56

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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different parts of the UK that have never yet managed to get into films needs to up their game. Local authorities can play a role in making sure that their area considered as a potential place to make a film. Often it is about whether there are are other facilities in the area that can contribute to that. But he makes a fair point on behalf of Harlow. I think if there is a film he will be

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starring in it. I it is because the I may be able to help the Minister. Paddington Bear actually lives in Borehamwood because Paddington Bear that movie was produced that Elstree film was produced that Elstree film studios in my constituency. It sits studios in my constituency. It sits alongside Sky Elstree is yours on the ground the British ministry. It the ground the British ministry. It is no surprise that President Trump is jealous because by all accounts more films are produced in more films are produced in Hertfordshire than Hollywood.

But as the Minister says this is a mutual benefit between our nations. There benefit between our nations. There is one thing the Minster could do right now. Once I will say that I

12:57

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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agree with my honourable friend, the Minister, sorry, the member of Parliament for St Albans, and this is the key point, business rates are proving crippling for many of our studios including Elstree from studios. So I would urge the Minister to have another go at the Treasury. I remember this with the Culture Recovery Fund. Our resistance to begin with but if you keep on going you get somewhere. That would be a huge Philip to the industry and help them withstand any shocks they face.

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Are confused about who is a minister and not a minister these minister and not a minister these days. I accept the point. It is clearly an issue. I rebel when we were in opposition, I was regularly were in opposition, I was regularly knocking on the door of the now shadow estate getting into something to persuade the Treasury to do something about business rates at something about business rates at the time. I am fully on board and understand the problem that we have.

understand the problem that we have. I look forward to him assisting me in more endeavours in the future. Hugh Bonneville told me he was Hugh Bonneville told me he was slightly upset when he signed up to Paddington in Peru because he thought it would be forming in Peru. But he said he got as far as Borehamwood.

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The economy is set to benefit from a £50 million boost from the universal theme Park in universal theme Park in Bedfordshire. It will, as all members will welcome, start Paddington Bear. With the Minister agree that stars like Paddington Bear actually have an enormous Bear actually have an enormous amount of soft power, I think we have heard that today the chamber. What can he do to reassure me that he is going to make sure that we protect and support the very next generation of Great British storytellers?

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She makes a very good point. We are delighted that the themepark is are delighted that the themepark is going to happen. I think that will going to happen. I think that will be transformational for British tourism industry apart from anything else. It will be the largest theme park across the whole of Europe. I'm

12:59

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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park across the whole of Europe. I'm grateful to my colleagues in the Treasury who delivered when it was necessary in relation to that. I do want to emphasise how important our not just from high-end television and, for that matter, the existence of the BBC and stuff produced by ITV and many others is as part of our soft power. I think Paddington probably counts as hard power. probably counts as hard power. probably counts as hard power.

12:59

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. A studio in my constituency has brought hundreds of jobs to my constituency and many across Berkshire. It is a very important part of our local economy, and a symbol of the U.K.'s creative strength. We must not forget Berkshire is the Hollywood of Britain. It must be protected from Donald Trump's reckless tariffs. Will the Minister condemn these tariffs and work with the film industry to ensure that the UK remains the world's premier destination for film investment? To

13:00

Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )

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We want to maintain it as the premier destination for international investment. I've also referred to India but I will argue Nigeria, I want to see much more coproduction between the UK and Nigeria. It is worth bearing in mind that 51% of our movie exports go to the EU, so this is a genuinely open

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market. My belief is that free trade is better than tariffs. Thank you Mr Speaker. The

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The Minister will know that the UK has a Minister will know that the UK has a world leading film and TV workforce that flies the flag for collaboration, British talent, and collaboration, British talent, and for economic growth around the world. But he will also know that

13:01

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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world. But he will also know that much of our film workforce is freelance, and he will be watching this news with anxiety. Particularly as many of them after recovering from the impact of the industrial action taken in the US recently for some, thanking his hard work stop and please the spoken to Philip the Child, back to our Phyllis champions in the UK. Can you reassure members of the union enough and work. We are on their side and we will help

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protect film talent in the UK? I make two points following on from that. First is that, the point about how the difficulties that they about how the difficulties that they have been in the UK market for film and high-end television in recent years because of what happened in years because of what happened in the United States of America. Make that point about that mutuality that point about that mutuality between the US and the UK film industry. I would like the US movie industry to be strong because if it industry to be strong because if it is strong, our industry will be strong as well.

I think there are net benefits to both of us and there net benefits to both of us and there is a win win here. Second point about freelance. I've often worry that so much of the creative that so much of the creative industries rely on freelance workers. In many cases that is great, people want that kind of great, people want that kind of career. But they also need some degree of security if they are to be able to take out a mortgage and plan

13:02

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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able to take out a mortgage and plan their economic future. That is one of the things we are definitely looking at in relation to the

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The film industry is hugely helpful to the Bucks economy, the helpful to the Bucks economy, the film industry supporting many of my film industry supporting many of my constituents in jobs, not just the films but the supply chains that go

13:02

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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films but the supply chains that go into that. I'm would provide opportunities to young people through their futures festival showcasing every single career in the film industry. Much of that success is done on American money. With companies like Disney and Amazon using Pinewood out of choice is where some of the success comes from. Can he also assure us that he is also working with companies like Disney and Amazon to ensure that Disney and Amazon to ensure that those American brands are peeking up to say why they are choosing Pinewood and other UK studios? -- Speaking.

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I think the first text message I received on Monday morning was Pinewood. I'm on that case. It is not just about Amazon and Disney, but also about the streamers and a but also about the streamers and a whole series of different other organisations who like making their products here in the UK. Pinewood is

13:03

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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products here in the UK. Pinewood is the home of bond. That also makes the point. Historically the distribution rights for bond work with an American company but the production rights were with Barbara broccoli and relatives. Now all of that is with the US. Let me put it this way, I am hopeful that bond will still always be British.

13:04

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I am glad the Minister mentioned the phrase win-win because in international trade in the film industry and creative industries, it has to be about win win rather than zero-sum. I would like to point out that when I discussed this industry with the founder of secret Cinema, it is clear we have incredible innovators in our creative industry and in the film sector specifically. In order for them to flourish we need to retain the sense that it is a win-win, internationally and for the UK.

Not zero-sum.

13:04

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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He makes an extremely good point. If I might leap off the word cinema that he used there to make the point that film is not just about production, it is about finding audiences. One of my concerns in the UK is how do we make sure that cinemas, movie theatres in the US, can flourish as well. They can be an important part of dignity in a town. The town that has a cinema is likely to be a place that has respect for itself.

I would like to make sure that continues into the future.

13:05

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Now one of the most sought after destinations in the world, US, companies often have their features in Scotland, from Batman, Indian Jones and world more the. All of this will be put at risk. Will he work with the Scottish Government with any response to the US and will he state clearly that this will be mutually self-destructive in that all parties are set to lose if they do proceed with anything approaching tariffs?

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I have made the point that we think there is a win win. In the future if you have a strong US movie industry and that will benefit a industry and that will benefit a strong UK movie industry. I believe in Fair Trade and free-trade. Over recent years it has been worrying that more and more countries have that more and more countries have wanted to put protectionism around a series of industries. It has not tended to happen in services, it has been more about goods, one of the been more about goods, one of the other issues in here.

Please write about Scotland, and Keane with working with the devolved working with the devolved administrations to make sure that we remain the best place to make films and high-end television. I do not and high-end television. I do not know if he has watched havoc but

13:06

Mr Gagan Mohindra MP (South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)

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know if he has watched havoc but that was all filmed in Wales. You misheard. However is... Was all filmed in Wales but looks as if it is an American dystopian city.

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Warner Brothers Studios is in my

13:07

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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constituency and is a genuine world-class film and TV production centre providing thousands of jobs, generating significant wealth for the UK economy and earning their reputation as hollywood in Hertfordshire. Many blockbusters including Barbie, the Harry Potter franchise and others have been filmed there. The recently confirmed HBO Harry Potter TV series is set to be filmed there this summer. Leaving aside the decisions of the Chancellor, can the Minister provide reassurance he will continue to update the House and the industry more widely about mitigations this government will potentially do if the tariffs come to fruition?

13:08

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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We are working on making sure we have the proper trade deal that would not just mitigate that mean we did not end up in the situation he just described. I know this well and I was in touch with Warner quickly on Monday morning as well. He makes a very good point.

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Unlike many others in the House, Totnes does not have film studios Totnes does not have film studios and South Devon does not have, there has never been a major movie made has never been a major movie made there, but we do have a lot of

13:08

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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there, but we do have a lot of creators in our community, writers, musicians, producers and costume makers, costume maker who happens to be my daughter who I am proud of and is entering this industry. These proposed tariffs will deal another blow to the UK film industry if they materialise, following on from the strikes we have already seen. Can I ask the Minister for his assurance that he is ready to work to protect and insulates the UK film industry and all the jobs it sustains? Particularly freelance jobs, for

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pushing for tax credits or business rates adjustments to support the industry here? I find it difficult to believe

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I find it difficult to believe there has not been a single film ever made in Devon. But if there has

13:09

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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ever made in Devon. But if there has not, one of my major aims must be that there is a film made in Devon. that there is a film made in Devon. If I might refer to Cheltenham, one of the films made in Cheltenham many years ago was the film 'if.'. The years ago was the film 'if.'. The word if is an important one at the moment. If these tariffs were to be imposed.

13:10

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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On Sunday, the president of the United States said 'we want movies made in America again.' Would the Minister agree that the key to making good movies is artistic freedom and expression and to grow the necessary skills? With that in mind, would he visit a company in my mind, would he visit a company in my constituency which is doing a good constituency which is doing a good job in upskilling young people in multimedia?

13:10

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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Yes. the backdrop for many great films, the backdrop for many great films, including the Alan Partridge film. It is no wonder that President Trump would want to persuade such a film would want to persuade such a film from coming away from America. The only person more Alan Partridge than Alan Partridge is Donald Trump. Would he assure that the contributions are value to the economy and that he will do economy and that he will do everything to protect them?

13:11

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Why did he not make his film in Devon? He has obviously not got the message from his own party colleagues. There are lots of great British films that will be watched in American movie cinemas over the weeks to come. I am absolutely certain that no president is going to want to say do not watch British films. One of the films I enjoyed most over the last few months is conclave, a phenomenal success and

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remarkably timely. The film industry is important to

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The film industry is important to Northern Ireland because the executive puts a considerable amount executive puts a considerable amount executive puts a considerable amount of money into this. We have had the internationally successful Game of thrones filmed in Northern Ireland. Much of that in my constituency. You Much of that in my constituency. You can see the benefits, tens of millions of pounds being poured in

13:12

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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in terms of building sets, costume, catering and even now we still have thousands of tourists every year coming to see the films. There is a long legacy from it. I welcome the way that the Minister is dealing with this. It is speculation but before it becomes policy it is important we get the message of the administration. Would he ensure that in constructing those arguments he has consultations with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that Northern Ireland's voice is heard in

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these discussions? He makes a good point. I have already had discussions on other already had discussions on other matters relating to the creative industries with members of the executive in Northern Ireland and I executive in Northern Ireland and I think I have another call next week. I will make sure. He makes a good point about tourism. A lot of tourism, tourist to come to the UK,

13:13

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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tourism, tourist to come to the UK, want to see the places where some of their favourite movies and television series were made. That is one of the things that it is capitalising on at the moment with the visit Great Britain campaign.

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I enjoy discussing the British industry because everyone, members industry because everyone, members across the House, stands up and says they have a hollywood in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire and everywhere else. I am blessed in Spelthorne because I have Europe's biggest film studios, second biggest in the world, not to hollywood, but in the world, not to hollywood, but to China. There is a certain amount of nervousness as a result of the posting on truth social that the Minister has come here to talk Minister has come here to talk about.

I agree with him that it is incredibly difficult logistically incredibly difficult logistically and technically to unpick the US

13:14

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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UKIP in a film. I think that will prove incredibly difficult. I therefore commend him for his very considered run at this and I think it is the right thing to do. I visited one of our many British film support companies that make sets and props. One of the points they made on skills was the apprenticeship model does not work terribly well for industries which have so many freelancers and such lumpy work schedules. When meeting with

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industry leaders tomorrow, will he raise it with industry leaders? A Lawrence of Arabia question.

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A Lawrence of Arabia question. I was at the bad Wolf studios in Cardiff last week and it was raised with me, how important it has been with me, how important it has been for them that they have been able to take on apprentices working in the company because they have the security of knowing that there are a security of knowing that there are a number of projects, they have their own studios and they've not just been making Doctor Who, his dark Materials and industry is being Materials and industry is being filmed there at the moment.

A whole series of different projects, that

13:15

Zöe Franklin MP (Guildford, Liberal Democrat)

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series of different projects, that enables them to take people on not just on a daily basis. One of the things we need to change is the apprenticeship levy in the UK so it works better for the film industry so they are able to make long-term commitments to pupils future careers.

13:15

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Appreciate the Minister's comments this afternoon. As a member of the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, we have heard over and over again how important the UK tax film credits are for the industry and the tangible difference it is making to filmmakers across the UK. Can the Minister advise what is this government considering adjusting in any way to maintain competitiveness with the United States and other international

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markets given the context we are now working in? I have always said I support these. We first introduced them these. We first introduced them under Gordon Brown and they were continued by the Conservative government and we introduced two new government and we introduced two new ones. I think the independent £15 million movie tax credit will make a million movie tax credit will make a significant difference to the UK. In particular at this point. But I note

13:16

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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particular at this point. But I note that some of the documents that have been around in relation to the semi announcement in the United States of America, has praised the way we have done things in the UK and want to mirror it in other parts of the mirror it in other parts of the world. I will take praise wherever I world. I will take praise wherever I

13:16

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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It is around the uncertainty of President Trump's comment, that in Northern Ireland we have the Titanic film studios and others, and there is a lot of industry already going. At his meeting could the Minister At his meeting could the Minister consider including Northern Ireland consider including Northern Ireland rather than leaving them from other way?

13:17

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm happy to do that. my constituency has been home to Twickenham Film Studios for over 100 years which has been involved in both production and postproduction work the big-name films including The Italian Job, Gandhi, and the Oscar-winning sound production for

13:17

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Top Gun the Maverick. They have been set by challenges from the US set by challenges from the US rider's strike to issues raised by the member from St Albans about skyrocketing business rates. And the skyrocketing business rates. And the potential tariffs could deal with the fatal blow to studios such as the fatal blow to studios such as Twickenham. Can I urge the Minister to work with the Treasury and valuation office on bringing down valuation office on bringing down the rateable value for these film studios? Could I also invite him to follow in the footsteps of Tom follow in the footsteps of Tom Cruise and come to St Margaret's and visit Twickenham Film Studios? Quite the thing is he does all his own the thing is he does all his own stunts and I'm a bit nervous, being tangled off the back of a helicopter tangled off the back of a helicopter tangled off the back of a helicopter or dumped in a vat of something.

The Shadow Minister says he will arrange Shadow Minister says he will arrange it. If you arrange it I will invite him to come and see the Rhondda Tunnel and we can dangle him down a hole as well. Anyway. She is making the point that has been made several times. Tom Cruise is one of the biggest investors in the UK because of all the movies that have been made here. We are rightful to him, and the BFI will be honouring him next week. I think that is a really good thing.

We are the best place in the world to make movies and we want to continue that. I'm feeling very left out in not having a studio in my own constituency. We have my own constituency. We have produced some of the best actors in the world including Sir Stanley Baker who had one of his films, Baker who had one of his films, Sodom and Gomorrah. What film were you Mr Speaker... We are not meant you Mr Speaker... We are not meant to do this.

I'm proud of the young actor at the moment, Callum Scott actor at the moment, Callum Scott Harold who is doing well. Harold who is doing well.

13:19

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Never the final episode, still a bit to go yet. Can I thank the Minister for his answers and for the energy that he displays on behalf of the sector. Following on from the questions to the business and trade Minister about the film industry in Northern Ireland, the important of USA films within Northern Ireland USA films within Northern Ireland cannot be overstated with films such as Star Wars and Game of thrones. So as Star Wars and Game of thrones.

So many use a highly studios and the cost effectiveness of this option. cost effectiveness of this option. These Trump tariffs will negate much of the benefits. Discussions can be of the benefits. Discussions can be had, I'm confident about the Minister's response, but what discussions can be had to set out the need for our sector and this the need for our sector and this important part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

13:20

Sir Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I thought the credits were already rolling and then he comes already rolling and then he comes up. I feel, it might be that I'm a very sick person by nature but I feel very optimistic about where all of these negotiations will end up. I'm very hopeful that we will end up with some kind of deal. I also passionately believe that wherever that deal ends up, UK film industry will succeed because we have always been a great nation at telling stories that people want to watch all around the world.

We have some all around the world. We have some of the greatest actors. We may be a small nation but we managed to dominate on screens all around the dominate on screens all around the world. Because we are talented, we world. Because we are talented, we are just a talented, and everyone would still want to keep on buying that talent whatever the deal may be. be.

13:21

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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We will let the Frontbench change

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Minister. I will make a statement on India and Pakistan. The whole house will have been following two elements in recent weeks pulling the horrific terrorist attack in Pahalgam 26th of terrorist attack in Pahalgam 26th of April which left tourists dead. Last April which left tourists dead. Last night, soon after 2100 hours, Indian forces launched missile strikes against nine sites in Pakistan, against nine sites in Pakistan, Pakistan-administered Kashmir. The government of India have described government of India have described the actions as measured and non- escalatory and proportionate and responsible.

And liberally targeted at terrorist infrastructure. Following India's actions last night, a military spokesperson for night, a military spokesperson for Pakistan has stated that 26 Pakistanis have died and 46 were Pakistanis have died and 46 were injured. Including civilians and children. At a meeting of the National Security Council earlier today, the Pakistani Government has stated that it reserves the right to stated that it reserves the right to respond in a manner of its choosing. This is an incredibly delicate moment, in an evolving and fast moving situation.

As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and noted just now, rising tensions between India and Pakistan are a serious concern. The government has been monitoring the situation closely and staying in close contact with all of the key partners. Since the development overnight, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been in contact with both the Indian external affairs minister, and the Pakistani Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister. Our high commissions in Delhi and Islamabad have also been in close contact with their hosts.

I met this morning with the Pakistani Finance Minister. The Foreign Secretary has also been coordinating closely with other partners notably the United States and the goal. Our consistent message to both India and Pakistan has been to show restraint. They need to engage in a dialogue to find a swift diplomatic path forward. UK has close and unique relationships with both countries. It is heartbreaking to see civilian lives being lost. We clearly condemned the horrific terrorist attack last month, there were such attacks in Indian-administered Kashmir for many years.

Now we need all sides to focus urgently on the steps needed to restore regional stability and ensure the protection of civilians. The UK will continue to work closely with our international partners in pursuit of short-term deescalation and longer-term stability. The Foreign Secretary will have a chance to discuss the situation with EU foreign ministers in Warsaw today. He and the whole government will stay in close touch with the government of India and Pakistan, as well as with those with influence in the region.

Deescalation is of the utmost importance not least given the large numbers of British nationals in the region. The safety of British nationals will always be our priority. Overnight, we gave factual updates to our travel advice to India and Pakistan updating British nationals on potential disruption to flights in the region. British nationals in both India and Pakistan should stay up-to-date with our travel advice and follow the advice of the local authorities. I am acutely aware for many communities across the UK and indeed members across this house, that this is a very personal and sensitive situation.

The British Pakistani and British Indian committees make a huge contribution to this country. We recognise this will be a difficult time for many. We look to all communities and faith leaders to spread a message that now is the time for coming together across religious and ethnic differences. Mr religious and ethnic differences. Mr Speaker, we now need to see calm heads. And Britain continue to play heads. And Britain continue to play our full part for deescalation and diplomacy. I commend this statement to the House.

13:26

Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)

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Shadow foreign secretary David Priti Patel. killed 26 tourists in Pahalgam in a barbaric and savage acts of violence. Most victims were killed at point bank range. My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected by this murderous violent terrorism. This was an act of terrorism and we must reflect on the fact that it has joined Mumbai New Delhi and other places in India that will be forever scarred by an act of terror. This is clearly a precarious moment and we want to see tensions ease between India and Pakistan.

We want to avoid a state on state military escalation. We are also clear that India has the right to take reasonable and proportionate steps to defend itself and to dismantle the vile terrorist infrastructure that has caused death and continues to threaten them. We know that terrorists based in Pakistan threaten India and Western interests. It was the country that Osama bin Laden was hiding in. Because of the long history of violence, reflected by terrorists on India, UK has in place long-standing security cooperation arrangements with India.

Last week in this House I reminded the government of those long-standing security agreements, why they exist, and why they should matter to us here in the UK. Given these links, UK government should be at the forefront of working with our friends and allies to tackle the terrorist threats that we face collectively. While I know the Minister will not be able to speak about intelligence sharing between UK and India, Kenya at least confirm whether our intelligence and security services have been in contact with India about the incident that took place, and are supporting their investigations? Has the government provided any specific security assistance to India in the aftermath of the terrorist attack in Kashmir? Could Britain offer specific support that might help avert escalation? Does the Minister agree with the assessment made by India that the group who claimed responsibility for the 22nd April attack is a front for a Pakistani- based terrorist group? They are a prescribed Terrorisc group have a clear history of committing acts of terror against India and have reported links to Hamas, including reports that Hamas representatives have met with them earlier this year.

Can the Minister confirm that the UK government is aware of any cooperation and links between the organisation and Hamas? I asked this of the Minister last week he did not respond so I would welcome an answer on this important point today. Does the Minister know which terror groups are currently operating in Pakistan and the links to other terrorist groups that threaten our interest? Last week the Minister said we are playing a role in making sure tensions do not split full stop the government has a role to play in is to leverage to make these tensions ease.

Can the Minister inform the House what direct discussions are taking place between the Indian and Pakistani government since the attacks two weeks ago? Was the UK informed in advance of the actions being undertaken and does the Minister have a plan to support easing these tensions? The Minister referring to the Foreign Secretary's calls were counterparts and engagement, can you give more evidence of those discussions? Have ministers undertaken an assessment of the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan? Has the Minister had discussions with the Pakistani Government on this matter? Can ministers give assurances that there are sufficient measures in place to ensure that no British aid to Pakistan either bilaterally or otherwise has ended up in the wrong hands? These questions in mind, the Diaspora communities here in the UK have strong licks to both India and have strong licks to both India and Pakistan, as the Minister said.

Can you give an update on the actions that will be taken to prevent the escalation of tensions impact on escalation of tensions impact on communities and our country? Can you give details of extra consular give details of extra consular capacity and support UK will give to high commissions in both countries, and provide consulate support to British nationals in Pakistan and British nationals in Pakistan and India? Finally, will the Minister be more forthcoming with the House about the government's assessment as about the government's assessment as to who carried out the terror attack in Kashmir? Whether they were working with any other malign actors working with any other malign actors and whether he is working through the security implications for the UK? UK?

13:30

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, right honourable lady asks important questions. Let me take the opportunity to reiterate our condemnation of terrorism in all its forms. Our thoughts are of course still with those affected by the despicable acts of 22 April. Our thoughts are with their loved ones thoughts are with their loved ones and the people of India. The Prime Minister spoke with Mr Modi on 24th of April. Foreign Secretary spoke of April. Foreign Secretary spoke We are all in regular contact with our counterparts.

I am not privy to the very latest contact he has had but I know they are ongoing. The right honourable lady asks important questions about community relationships. This country is of course working closely with agency counterparts you are talking to affected communities affected communities across the country. Recognising the sensitivities she points to. I can confirm to the right honourable lady I have had extended discussions with my Pakistani counterparts around the terrorist threats in Pakistan that need actions to be taken in order to address those terror threats.

Which affect Pakistan itself which has suffered in recent months very significant terrorist attacks.

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Thank you. The reality is that airstrikes in Pakistan and a sad

13:31

Imran Hussain MP (Bradford East, Labour)

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airstrikes in Pakistan and a sad Kashmir have seen the killing and injury of dozens of civilians including children. It has led to a massive escalation in the real threat of war between two nuclear powers. This follows two weeks of tactics and thousands of mass arrest in Kashmir, the unilateral withdrawal of the treaty effectively threatening collective pension -- collective punishment on thousands of Pakistanis are now this act of aggression. All in complete contradiction of international law.

The Minister is right to say the international community must now focus towards deescalation and stability. --. This cannot be achieved in full without addressing the central issue of Kashmir. An issue close to the hearts of many fun -- honourable members in this place. And one which has been raised by me over the last decade in this chamber, the plight of Kashmir. Does chamber, the plight of Kashmir. Does the Minister accept the UK has a moral, historical and legal duty and moral, historical and legal duty and responsibility to end this 80 year period where UN resolutions on Kashmir have frankly sat gathering dust? And will he act so the sons dust? And will he act so the sons and daughters of Kashmir have their birthright to self-determination, something promised to them decades ago? ago?

13:33

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank my honourable friend is for the question. Of course there are range of wider issues between India and Pakistan. Kashmir is one of them. On this most delicate of days it is important the House remains focused on the importance of deescalation. That is my key message from this

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Dispatch Box today. Thank you. And to the Minister for advanced sight of his statement. for advanced sight of his statement. The terrible terrorist attack last month brought death to 26 civilians and rightly shocked and appalled many. Yesterday's military strikes many. Yesterday's military strikes by India and the subsequent exchange of artillery firing in Kashmir marked deeply concerning escalation. The prospect of New Delhi and Islamabad engaging in further military action risks destabilising military action risks destabilising the entire region and leading to more civilian deaths.

Their status as nuclear powers also generates severe global risks. It is vital therefore both governments work to de-escalate the current crisis. Maintaining open lines of communication is key to preventing escalation and enabling a diplomatic escalation and enabling a diplomatic offramp for both countries. Can the Minister provide more detail on the conversations he said have taken conversations he said have taken place overnight with government representatives in New Delhi and Islamabad? And on what steps the Islamabad? And on what steps the covenant is taking to help maintain an open dialogue between both an open dialogue between both governments? Can the Minister also confirm whether additional resources are being provided to support British nationals in Pakistan and India to ensure their safety.

Given our shared history Madam Deputy Speaker, and now as Commonwealth partner to India and Pakistan the UK has a particular responsibility to support efforts and mediation and to prevent reality to reactions which could contribute to more deaths on both sides. Can the Minister described plans the government has to engage international partners in the UN to support mediation efforts? Yesterday strikes followed a series of escalating measures taken by India and Pakistan over the past week. In addition to the cessation of military activity, it is vital these countermeasures are bound back.

Can the Minister confirm what back. Can the Minister confirm what is mediation efforts are being done to reinstate the treaty and Pakistan to reinstate the treaty and Pakistan to reopen its airspace? Indian and Pakistan communities across the country will be very worried by these new development. It is vital these new development. It is vital they asked fully supported -- they are fully supported. In addition to the remarks of ready-made can the the remarks of ready-made can the Minister provide more detail on the steps the government is taking across all departments to support communities here in the UK?

13:36

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank the honourable gentleman for his question. Let me try and take them in turn. I can confirm the Foreign Office is taking action to ensure the best possible consular services available to British nationals in India and Pakistan. He mentions airspace. Even over the course of the last 24 hours there have been a number of changes in relation to airspace. I would encourage both members of this House and equally watching at home to please keep Foreign Office travel advice as the central place for advice as this is a fast-moving situation and options for air travel may change and admittedly have changed over the last 24 hours.

Please do keep updated on that. I can confirm my partners are taking steps to try and ensure our call centres are open and those who are concerned should get a direct touch. We are as I said earlier in direct touch with both governments. I was touch with both governments. I was as I said with the Pakistani Finance Minister shortly before coming to this House. I will not comment in great detail about the substance of those discussions other than to say my key message in those engagements my key message in those engagements was the same message I have just repeated to my colleague which is now is the time for deescalation.

13:37

Tahir Ali MP (Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley, Labour)

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Thank you. India's record on Kashmir is not something to be proud of. It has been ethnic cleansing of Kashmiris that over 78 years. Human rights are not forgotten, an individual who was once barred from coming to this country from Prime Minister Modi. -- for Prime Minister Modi. Kashmir has a history spanning over years, it has never been part over years, it has never been part of India and it will never become a part of India. Does the Minister agree with me now is the time to agree with me now is the time to de-escalate? But also make sure the promises of a plebiscite for the Kashmiri people are delivered so this issue can be resolved once and for all?

13:38

Rt Hon Sir Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)

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My honourable friend is right to focus on deescalation. That is my focus this afternoon from the Dispatch Box. Our position on Kashmir remains unchanged. It will be the focus, the focus must be for now on ensuring there is no further threats to stability.

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Thank you. The Minister has rightly underlined the fact we are rightly underlined the fact we are so sick -- we are witnessing an incredibly dangerous moment at this point. Britain has uniquely deep, historic and influential relationship with both these great

13:39

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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relationship with both these great countries which we must now deploy with great energy and skill. Does he agree the government of Pakistan must take more action against these terrorist organisations, which operate from their soil and also understand the outrage Indian people but not only Indian people, but including the diaster in Royal Sutton Coldfield feel these little

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events have taken place make these dreadful events have taken place as we have heard today? I thank the right honourable

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I thank the right honourable gentleman for his question and I recognise his attention to these eat recognise his attention to these eat -- these issues. I remember his -- these issues. I remember his committee in 2010. He is right Pakistan has been plagued by a Pakistan has been plagued by a

13:40

Rt Hon Valerie Vaz MP (Walsall and Bloxwich, Labour)

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Pakistan has been plagued by a terrorist threat, it is a play which has been of concern to its neighbours but also most acutely to many Pakistanis as we have seen devastatingly in recent months. They must do more to seek to tackle that must do more to seek to tackle that thread and I discussed that with Pakistani Ministers. Through the course of my ministerial duties. India is of course right to feel outraged at the terrible attack on 22 April. There are now civilian casualties on both sides and it is casualties on both sides and it is vital we focus our deescalation -- focus on deescalation and try to focus on deescalation and try to restore calm to both.

13:40

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank the Minister for coming to the House so soon. Can he confirm when he last met or when his department last met with the ambassadors of both India and Pakistan? And will he ensure the dialogue will continue with them? dialogue will continue with them?

13:40

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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I can confirm to my honourable friend the dialogue will continue. Of course the Prime Minister was in touch with Prime Minister Modi just yesterday. I was with the Pakistani Finance Minister and indeed the High Commissioner in London just an hour

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or two ago. Thank you. Following the terrible

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Thank you. Following the terrible terrorist atrocities on 22 April, as the Minister has outlined clearly India took diplomatic action and India took diplomatic action and further actions to take penalised

13:41

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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further actions to take penalised Pakistan Pakistan then retaliated. It was made clear at the time by India either Pakistan removes the terrorist bases along the Line of Control or India would remove them. And last night nine sites were hit. These were terrorist bases where training took place, where terrorists are being trained to go and commit further atrocities in India. Will he now call on Pakistan to make sure those terrorist bases

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are removed once and for all? Madam Deputy Speaker, the

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Madam Deputy Speaker, the situation remains incredibly delicate and fast-moving. We have seen rival accounts through the seen rival accounts through the course of the morning about air vents. We will of course track these events very carefully and I responded to the right honourable

13:42

Naz Shah MP (Bradford West, Labour)

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responded to the right honourable member for Sutton Coldfield earlier on the terrorist groups in Pakistan which pose a threat to Pakistan as well as others. We will of course continue to monitor events very closely. There is still much that is disputed. It is absolutely obvious for regional stability to be restored we need to have direct

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urgent contact between India and Pakistan and calm heads prevailing. Members need to temper their

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Members need to temper their language. And not use statements that are misleading to the House.

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Four thank you. Thank you. 26 people have lost

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Thank you. 26 people have lost their lives in the terrorist attacks and now 26 people have lost their lives in yesterday's attacks. The lives in yesterday's attacks. The truth remains there is no evidence truth remains there is no evidence presented to anybody to say any partner, any international partners, to say Pakistan was indeed to say Pakistan was indeed responsible for the attack. That has

13:43

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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responsible for the attack. That has not been presented. Does the Minister agree with me and I thank the Minister for coming to the House so soon and all of his efforts in trying to de-escalate, but to actually get deescalation and if India is so certain then does he agree with me, India should be sharing the evidence with the world to justify this barbaric attack on 26 people? Killing 26 people and attacking mosques in the middle of the night.

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Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have said in the previous answer there is clearly considerable amount of debates about the facts of what has happened. Just in the last few happened. Just in the last few hours. I do not wish to focus and it would indeed be inappropriate for

13:44

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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the UK to speculate on those exact facts. We need to focus from this House on deescalating the risks to regional stability that we see today.

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Thank you. There is enormous distrust between both nations. Which distrust between both nations. Which stems from the disputed Kashmir. -- The dispute of Kashmir. Immediately The dispute of Kashmir. Immediately after those terrorist attacks in India last month, India was quick off the mark to blame Pakistan. And Pakistan in response made it plain Pakistan in response made it plain they had nothing to do with it. Pakistan's position is how can Pakistan's position is how can terrorists travel 230 kilometres in a devastating terrain by foot armed,

13:44

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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assassinate people and return by foot into Pakistan. In an era which is the most militarised zone on this planet. It is somewhat incredulous the blame was put on Pakistan almost virtually within an hour of this atrocity. Will the Minister commit to leveraging our diplomatic influence to encouraging an environment conducive to open dialogue? Would he agree with me there is an ever-growing imperative to normalise relations and address underlying issues from territorial disputes to acts of violence, to peaceful negotiations and mutual understanding?

13:45

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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The honourable member is right to finish his remarks focusing on the importance of direct dialogue and of course I support this. I will not seek to adjudicate from this Dispatch Box on the claims about the Dispatch Box on the claims about the

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Icy tensions escalate on the subcontinent after the last terror attack, people are extremely worried about the safety of their loved

13:46

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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about the safety of their loved ones. People of Punjabi and Kashmiri heritage, the people who will be impacted more spite death and injuries to loved ones and recognising UK responsibility, can the Minister assure Parliament that we will be at the forefront of efforts to de-escalate the tension between the two nations and that we

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will ensure negotiations chart a path to peace and prosperity? I can assure my honourable friend

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I can assure my honourable friend that we are very much involved in efforts towards de-escalation and efforts towards de-escalation and for those with constituents who are concerned by the developments, I encourage the members across the

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encourage the members across the House to move towards the advice which we will keep updated as the situation develops. The barbaric terrorist attacks in

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The barbaric terrorist attacks in Kashmir on innocent illicit of the Kashmir on innocent illicit of the police tourists have caused the distress. There are too many Indian nationals involved. I welcome the

13:47

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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tone from the Minister and I believe it is just about right. I urge him to ensure none of these tensions happen here in those parts of the UK and must ensure that Hindu temples in particular are offered the same funding that is offered to mosques around the country.

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I thank the honourable gentleman

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I thank the honourable gentleman for the measured and reasonable question and I will look at the issue that he really is. I've been issue that he really is. I've been in contact with the Minister for Faith and Communities and we are Faith and Communities and we are discussing these issues carefully and looking at issues such as the one the honourable gentleman has

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raised and many others this morning. the Minister will now British constituents with strong links to Kashmir are horrified by the Kashmir are horrified by the terrorist attack and the escalation of violence we have seen overnight as well as online hatred which has

13:48

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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as well as online hatred which has been fermented. I asked about the possibility of missiles being used two weeks ago and referred from the Indian Foreign Secretary that they believe that there are further issues and the Pakistani Prime Minister has called it an act of war. You will be aware of the plan for Monday. What words of comfort can he offer constituents who are horrified about what will happen that the government will not just push for de-escalation but a long- term solution for peace and security of everyone? of everyone? I thank my honourable friend for

13:49

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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the question and for conveying concerns offer constituents concerns offer constituents effectively. Regional stability is in the interests of India and Pakistan and the UK and we will Pakistan and the UK and we will focus on that and, as my honourable

13:49

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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focus on that and, as my honourable friend acknowledges, my focus is on de-escalation but, of course, we will look at the full range of this. will look at the full range of this. -- I thank the Minister for the statement and we applaud the terrorist attacks and we abhor any loss of civilian life. We have two loss of civilian life. We have two nuclear states setting up with one another. Can the Minister assure me

13:50

Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )

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there has been a diminishing of the system in his approach to this and assure me he will stress the assure me he will stress the importance of the system when it comes to mediating between the parties?

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parties? I can assure the honourable member that the UK is committed to emphasising the importance of the international humanitarian law. international humanitarian law.

13:50

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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The merger of the 26 people was truly horrific but the strikes have resulted in the deaths of 26 civilians in Pakistan and Kashmir. It cannot be this bizarre game of tit for tat vendors who suffer are civilians on both sides. Can the Minister reassure constituents concerned about family members the government is doing everything it can and also on a diplomatic level to de-escalate the situation and make clear to India that water cannot be used as a weapon of war against the white people of Pakistan

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and Kashmir? My honourable friend is right and

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My honourable friend is right and

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My honourable friend is right and In terms of concerns for development of British nationals and I encourage them to refer to the bill of rights. This is a fast-moving situation and This is a fast-moving situation and we will not be in the position to always update the latest advice from

13:51

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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always update the latest advice from the dispatch box. Constituents should look there first and foremost for advice about how to ensure safety. My honourable friend refers to some of the issues we discussed last week including the water treaty which I understand has not been repealed. Some longer term issues will have to be discussed with the first priority that question. Fought role does the Minister envisage the Commonwealth playing to act on this and the discussions between India and Pakistan? Can he assure the House that, given the assure the House that, given the trade deal with India was signed just yesterday, that there will be a just yesterday, that there will be a clear demarcation of the government response and that the government response and that the government does not feel fettered as a result of the deal in terms of acting as a modest broker between the two countries?

13:52

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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The priority is to ensure that contact between India and Pakistan and make sure those tensions are directly they escalated and we are proud that we are Commonwealth members with India and Pakistan and the membership reflects a deep history between the UK and India and Pakistan. Of course, we welcome the free food agreement which was free food agreement which was announced yesterday and, of course, these are close and deep friendships these are close and deep friendships between both countries involved and in all of our efforts we will seek in all of our efforts we will seek to restore the regional stability and we will do that with our friends.

friends. friends.

13:53

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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Thank you for your advice on tempering the language because the words have consequences and I thank the Minister for the statement and the Foreign Secretary for the work that they are doing in the back ground. Yesterday in this House, we celebrated the end of World War II. I commented and commended the role of the British and Indian troops, now known as India and Pakistan, who fought shoulder to shoulder and made sure that the Allied troops won and sure that the Allied troops won and the world war was ended and as someone with Indian heritage born in India whose parents were born in Pakistan, I know that neither nation will take a backward step and so what can the Minister do to assure what can the Minister do to assure me and my residents that we will do everything possible to bring both everything possible to bring both the superpowers to the negotiating the superpowers to the negotiating table to restore the peace to this volatile part of the world? volatile part of the world?

13:54

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank my honourable friend for the sensitive and personal tone that he brings to his remarks and I have also seen Commonwealth War Graves in Pakistan and India and that is tribute to many from the British and Indian forces in World War II and I assure him and constituents that we assure him and constituents that we will do everything that we can to player Phil diplomatic role. Given the freight the ramifications of further tensions between these two nuclear-aunt neighbours, I agree that de- escalation and diplomacy are the priority.

Can I ask the Minister to tell the House if he has looked for assurance that weapons manufactured in the UK have not been used in the attacks against civilians and can they explicitly rule out supplying any weaponry made in the UK to either side in a bid to increase pressure on both parties? pressure on both parties?

13:55

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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We have some of the toughest rules for arm exports in the world and they will be fully adhered to in this case and I do not intend to make a further absence from the dispatch box about that now but I'm dispatch box about that now but I'm

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sure I could return to the House in due course. 10 days ago, the house stood united in condemning the attacks on civilians on both sides of the

13:56

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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civilians on both sides of the conflict and instead the violence has tragically escalated and there are more innocent lives lost overnight as a result of the attacks on civilians in Pakistan. We want to see an immediate de-escalation of the military action to prevent further loss of lives but does the Minister agree that lasting peace in the region cannot be achieved until the issue of Kashmir is resolved and the right of the people to self legislation is recognised and upheld? upheld?

13:57

Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)

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I recognise the long advocacy of my right honourable friend on these questions and we are calling for de-escalation and the position remains unchanged and I'm sure we can discuss the longer term issues between India and Pakistan in the fullness of time.

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I welcome the statement of the

13:57

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I welcome the statement of the , should be deterred. Acting on behalf of my constituents, many of whom are of Pakistani heritage and whom are of Pakistani heritage and Indian heritage, and I want to join the Minister in calling for that de-escalation and the dialogue between India and Pakistan. Ahead of between India and Pakistan. Ahead of the meeting next week, as a

13:57

Harpreet Uppal MP (Huddersfield, Labour)

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prominent member of the Security Council, what more can the UK do to ensure that the US is fully engaged

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in the process as well? I thank the honourable gentleman

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I thank the honourable gentleman for his torn and his question and I for his torn and his question and I can confirm the Foreign Secretary and other members of the government are in touch with other private

13:58

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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are in touch with other private I can then the loss of civilian life and these terror strikes are ongoing and I joined the honourable member as saying we must de-escalate the situation and I was contacted by a constituent in the region who is concerned about him and his family so I ask what role is being played

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in the region as well. I thank my honourable friend. We

13:58

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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I thank my honourable friend. We have been hitting the travel advice and I can confirm my department is taking steps to be able to respond taking steps to be able to respond as fully as possible to the concerns of the collective constituents who are in the region and I would say to heart and all members of the House that the advice from the travel office of the Foreign Office will be

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the best for them to look at. I thank the Minister for hosted

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I thank the Minister for hosted and I associate myself with the condemnation of the terror attack and my concern is about the de-

13:59

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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and my concern is about the de- escalation which become required after the killing of thousands of people. I have many constituents. I am of Indian heritage myself and my constituents are terrified of what they saw last night. The Minister has already explained what steps the UK is taking to de-escalate but can he provide reassurance to my constituents that whatever steps the UK will take, the diplomatic steps taken will be neutral, impartial, and not favour one country over the other and prioritise peace and stability in the region.

14:00

Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)

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I thank him for this question and for his acknowledgement of the support of de-escalation and the reasonable interest of the country and indeed the UK interest include stability between the two and they are both great friends to this

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I support the Minister in his cause to deescalation. I would like to reiterate my condolences to the families who have lost loved ones, both in the attack last month but both in the attack last month but overnight as well. I represent a constituency that is about 20% constituency that is about 20% Pakistani and Kashmiri heritage. I feel for our common humanity of

14:01

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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feel for our common humanity of anyone of religious origin who has lost anyone on either side of the Line of Control and we should extend our condolences to. The Minister confirm in terms of the international allies he has been working with around trying to de- escalate tensions? And also the security issue given the under was established back in... And has a huge amount of intelligence in the region. Will he say if he has been

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able to give contact with them might gain contact with them and what they have said? I can confirm Israel is the

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I can confirm Israel is the direct contact with India and Pakistan. And the variety of other Pakistan. And the variety of other nations I have mentioned over the nations I have mentioned over the course of this afternoon. We will continue to be in contact with colleagues and I'm due to speak shortly to my Saudi Arabian

14:02

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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shortly to my Saudi Arabian counterparts as well. As this House would expect we would be in regular and intense dialogue with all of those with an interest in the region and sharing with them our thoughts

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for deescalation. Does the Minister agree with me

14:02

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Does the Minister agree with me whether it is the Nile or anywhere else, weaponising water is wrong? And it particularly affects world's And it particularly affects world's poorest? Does he share my disappointment at the suspension of the 1960 English water treaty? And does he further share my concern that were in the attempted to exploit that suspension, China might decide to interfere with the headwaters?

14:03

Madame Deputy Speaker, the system is an -- one of enormous importance with India and Pakistan and it will be vital all partners, actors and international partners work towards its long-term sustainment.

14:03

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I thank the Minister for his statement on this can deeply concerning matter. Given he has a ready highlighted the friendship this country enjoys with both Pakistan and India, can he provide reassurances that it is in that manner ongoing conversations with both countries will be conducted and can he also detail which conversations have already happened? Or are planned with our international allies to de-escalate the situation.

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I can confirm to my honourable friend it will be in that spirit.

14:03

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

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friend it will be in that spirit. That we conduct our diplomatic efforts. There are many in this House who have alluded to their own family connections. Either to India or to Pakistan. As I alluded to earlier I have lived in Pakistan, it was the first lengthy posting I conducted and I know -- first legacy posting I conducted and I know many people across this House feel our friendship in India and Pakistan very deeply for studies in that spirit we will conduct our work.

spirit we will conduct our work.

14:04

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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My heart goes out to the 26 families of the tourists who were killed last month. My heart also goes out to the 26 civilians and children who were killed in Pakistan last night. I urge the government to do all it can to de-escalate the situation and as such, when can the Minister confirm when our Prime Minister will speak to the Indian and Pakistani governments in particular Prime Minister Modi?

14:04

Sojan Joseph MP (Ashford, Labour)

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The Prime Minister spoke to Prime Minister Modi yesterday, that was before these events. We have been in touch overnight with the Indian government and I have been in touch government and I have been in touch throughout the course of the day with the Pakistani government as well. well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Everyone in this House knows India has suffered a number of terrorist attacks the years. Including one on the Indian Parliament. Just last month lives were lost following an act of terrorism.

In Falun Gong. Whilst India has the right to respect itself and its people, does my honourable friend degree war is my honourable friend degree war is not good for both sides? And it is time for deescalation and for Pakistan to work with India to eradicate terrorism from the region?

14:05

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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I agree with my honourable friend. Deescalation is vital. It is to that end our references are against.

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Thank you. I commend Minister and indeed the Secretary of State for indeed the Secretary of State for their maintained dialogue with both countries and to work with

14:06

Yasmin Qureshi MP (Bolton South and Walkden, Labour)

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countries and to work with international allies to de-escalate the situation. Given the urgency for deescalation, is there any reason why this matter cannot be taken to the UN Security Council for a more urgent discussion that is currently planned?

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The agenda of the UN Security Council has agreed in New York and I Council has agreed in New York and I am not in a position to update the House and what that will contain but

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House and what that will contain but I will do so in due course. May I refer the House to my

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May I refer the House to my register of interests as chair of the APPG for Pakistan. In my constituency I have people from Indian heritage, Pakistani heritage, Indian heritage, Pakistani heritage, Kashmiri heritage. They were all absolutely gutted when they heard about the attack which took place two weeks ago and what happened last two weeks ago and what happened last night as well. My condolences go to all of those who have died and their all of those who have died and their families.

India launching strikes without providing clear evidence and without providing clear evidence and Pakistan in recent attacks is reckless and deeply irresponsible. reckless and deeply irresponsible. Pakistan despite being brutally blamed has actually suffered more in terms of terrorism over the last 10 to 15 years than any country in the world. And even in March there was a world. And even in March there was a terrorist attack there. Pakistan has responded very carefully to what has responded very carefully to what has happened.

I would ask, can I ask the Minister would he urge India to stop Minister would he urge India to stop escalating tension? And to press for credible evidence and dialogue instead of regression? instead of regression?

14:07

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I will focus from the Dispatch Box on deescalation and regional stability. That is our focus. My honourable friend who has a long commitment to these issues is right to focus on the damage the scourge of terrorism has caused. On Pakistan as well as others. That has been the subject of many discussions between me and my many discussions between me and my Pakistani equivalents stop Pakistan herself would most benefit from the eradication of terrorism.

14:08

Mr Adnan Hussain MP (Blackburn, Independent)

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Every day we witness the collapse of international limits of force. Diplomatic norms and humanitarian law. Institutions built by nations after two world wars to secure a more peaceful world. Now with two nuclear powers clashing, an escalation that could easily trigger 1/3 world war. I ask the Minister to confirm the U.K.'s unwavering and unconditional commitment to international law. To condemn the Indian states offensive against its sovereign neighbour, which has claimed the lives of 26 civilians.

Including children. And finally I Including children. And finally I emphasise, I understand members have across the House but I wish to emphasise the paramount importance emphasise the paramount importance and urgency of settling the long- standing issue of Kashmir. Through multilateral means and under the mediation of international bodies mediation of international bodies like the UN. So that lasting peace can finally take root in the region.

14:09

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Madame Deputy Speaker, as I am sure will be clear to all members I am focused on deescalation and regional stability. And of course regional stability. And of course the UK continues to stand by the importance of international importance of international humanitarian law. Under rules-based international order. Internationally monetary and law governs the monetary and law governs the actionable states towards necessity and proportionality and we expect all of our friends and indeed every nation state to provide -- to abide by them.

14:09

Jacob Collier MP (Burton and Uttoxeter, Labour)

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I represent a large Pakistani and Kashmiri community in Burton who are watching in horror and fear of further military escalation. Many further military escalation. Many family and extended family are in family and extended family are in the region and they are understand anxious about their safety and well-being. Can I ask the Minister what assurances can he offer my what assurances can he offer my constituents UK is actively engaging with all international partners to support deescalation, protect wider regional stability and protect civilian lives?

14:10

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I recognise the concerns that

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I recognise the concerns that will be felt in my honourable friend constituency, as they are felt in Lincoln and elsewhere. I can assure him and the whole house we will use

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him and the whole house we will use our full diplomatic wit to try and ensure deescalation. Thank you. Can I thank the

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Thank you. Can I thank the Minister for his statement. In my heart is the loss of civilian life

14:10

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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heart is the loss of civilian life and I send my condolences to all of those who are grieving today. My Baptist Church in my constituency, a few weeks ago the pastor told us there were 67 wards of the world. So it totally is a world war. With news it totally is a world war. With news reports this morning that Air Force planes may have been shot down, the planes may have been shot down, the escalation of the situation is clear and can be worrying.

Can the Minister believe we can successfully Minister believe we can successfully intervene? And negotiate peace? And what assessment has been carried out with regards to the nuclear capacity to ensure global security was back thank you. thank you.

14:11

Matt Turmaine MP (Watford, Labour)

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Madame Deputy Speaker, the honourable gentleman asks important questions. The U.K.'s goal is deescalation to try and make sure we return to regional stability and the other issues between India and Pakistan which will be long discussed in this House are important questions to which we can

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return but today the focus must be on deescalation. Final question.

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Final question. Thank you very much. I thank my right honourable friend for his statement and the sympathy he has shown to those affected in these tragic events. Residents in my constituency of Watford which has a

14:12

Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)

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constituency of Watford which has a large Pakistani and Kashmiri community are really looking for leadership from the government. They have family and friendship networks that are deeply affected in the areas attacks -- areas attacked last night. We all recognise how sensitive and delicate the situation is in the need for calm thinking and dialogue. I wonder whether he can outline a little more the actions the government is taking to reduce tensions and de-escalate the risk in this situation?

14:12

Points of Order Mr Louie French MP (Old Bexley and Sidcup, Conservative)

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I thank my honourable friend for the question and the concern he shows for his constituents in Watford. As I have said we are in regular touch with all of those states with an interest and indeed the two parties themselves and we

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will continue to be so. End of the statement. I will allow the Front Benchers a few moments to swap over. Point of order.

14:13

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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order. Thank you. This morning we learnt Labour's choice of the football regulator, David Coogan made personal donations to both the Prime personal donations to both the Prime Minister and also the cultural Secretary. We believe the government decision not to disclose this when Mr Cogan's appointment was announced constitutes a potential breach of the government code of appointments and recommends -- and shows a clear strategy mega clear discourtesy to this House. It is clearly cronies overcoats, favours of fans and brings major risk to English football.

Can you please advise me on the best way to ensure this House is able to scrutinise such appointments and ensure all rules

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are followed by the government? I am grateful to the honourable member for giving notice of his point of order. The chair is not

14:13

Points of Order Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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point of order. The chair is not responsible for public appointments or for the pre-appointment process. But he has put his point on the record and he might like to raise it with the honourable member for Gosport who chairs the Culture, Media and Sport Committee who I see is in the chamber as well. We will now continue... Point of order.

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Thank you. The financial times reported this morning the Paymaster General has confirmed the UK is General has confirmed the UK is looking to set up a usability scheme for the EU. This is in direct contradiction to the answer the Minister gave to me in response to Minister gave to me in response to the question I asked this chamber just 13 days ago. You said on that occasion, the Youth Mobility Scheme occasion, the Youth Mobility Scheme is not part of our plans. We have

14:14

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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is not part of our plans. We have always said we will listen to sensible EU proposals but we will not go back to freedom of movement. This is only the most recent example. In previous we have been told there would be no plans for the Youth Mobility Scheme in December, February and March in answer to Oral Questions, on 21 January in response to a written question and on 29 January in Westminster Hall debate. The FDR state go like the FT article states publicly for the first time the Minister is looking at setting up a Youth Mobility Scheme as part of a new strategic partnership for the EU with Britain.

The Minister can be in no doubt of the key -- can be in no doubt of the key -- keenness of members of this House to be kept up-to-date with the progress of this issue. I ask why this announcement has been made to the announcement has been made to the media rather than to members directly? Thank you.

14:15

Ten Minute Rule Motion: Assets of Community Value (Sports Facilities)

The honourable member will be aware it is not a matter for the chair, we are not responsible for the statements. That government Ministers make. She has put her point on the record and no doubt the Treasury Front Benchers are listening and will pass on her concerns. We will now move on to the next Order of Business. Presentation

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of Bills, Secretary of State for Victims and Courts Bill.

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Victims and Courts Bill. Second Reading what day?.

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Tomorrow. Presentation of Bills.

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Tomorrow. Presentation of Bills. Immigration and Visas Bill. Second Reading what day?.

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Friday, 16 May.

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Friday, 16 May. Friday the 60 The Mace -- Friday, 16 May. I now go under the Ten Minute Rule Bill assets values and Minute Rule Bill assets values and

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Further for fun, Further for fun, fitness, football plays an important role for football plays an important role for many of us and many villages and towns across my constituency or across the country, if you ask people what they are most proud of, many will talk about football, whether it is the team that we play for or one that a family member competed with our following the journey from heartbreak to victory, it is the same set of extreme motions and that is for rugby league, rugby union, cricket clubs, with people moving across the world and it is part of the shared identity and local sports facilities, football pitches, swimming pools, leisure centres, vital for well-being and whether that is teaching kids to swim or the green space, these are things people should have access to in communities and are not just physical infrastructure but help to ensure people to be healthy, physically and mentally and they provide a sense of local pride.

For even the best professional sports people the journey starts at home. Alan Shearer played for his local boys team and he was departed Premier League and international stardom. They have hundreds of children playing at all standards, treading the path of local legends. Not to be outdone as the local club which has seen three alumni and most recently there was Dan Burn who was a little trying to score the first goal in the cup final victory this year and the thing is that you will never beat thing is that you will never beat him.

He cut his teeth playing locally and push trolleys in Asda and moved his way through to make his debut this year and while the bill today is not in his right but To give him more status would be supported by me. This goes far beyond the role of local sports clubs in producing stars. They do. It is more than that. They stabbed him in the school holidays to support local clubs. The juniors provide a space for the local Irish community and through the fan-owned model providing support on and off the pitch.

The cricket club do cricket for the over 50s and the local leisure centre supports the local SEN community. Countless sports facilities are making facilities better every day. In far too many communities, these facilities have slowly disappeared. Across the country, hundreds of swimming pools, leisure centres, sports clubs, they have shut their doors, leaving empty buildings and a gap in the lives of local people and forcing them to travel miles from home to access clubs in the next town over or go without.

The disappearance of small facilities can be devastating and often leaves can be devastating and often leaves scars in places that do not feel but they are is a better way. Community ownership gives people the opportunity to save local assets that we value the most and bring them into the community and run them in the interests of local people. There are many community and sports facilities of all kinds, not just managing to survive but thriving and they are uniquely attuned to the needs of the people.

Labour is committed to introducing a new community right to buy and that community right to buy and that would give communities a much better chance of ownership when assets are available and give them the first right of refusal. To be eligible for this, assets must first be lifted as assets of community value and it is an important process and also complex and it is inconsistent and time-consuming for groups of volunteers. I believe some assets are so important to local communities that they should be able to bypass the process and be automatically designated as assets of community value and that is why the Co-Operative Party are campaigning for that and ensuring sport facilities are eligible for union membership so they can be safeguarded, not just now but for generations to come.

This does not just mean processing will be more straightforward for communities wishing to own the facilities but it sends a clear message from the government that these assets, which keep people healthy and provide opportunities to bring people opportunities to bring people together, and fundamentally community ownership is about community ownership is about ensuring these assets cannot just be taken away and that communities have taken away and that communities have got all of the things that they deserve, the things that make them unique with local places made up of unique with local places made up of local assets owned by local people and this can be division, one that ships communities that are better, stronger, and will truly stand the test of time.

test of time.

14:22

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

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The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." The ayes have it. Who will bring in the bill? Speak Chris Vince, Sally Jameson, Dame Karen Bradley, Joe Morris, myself. myself.

14:23

Legislation: Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]: Remaining stages

14:25

Sir Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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14:55

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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15:13

Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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15:23

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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15:32

Samantha Niblett MP (South Derbyshire, Labour)

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15:46

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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The need to cause ethnicity data for Sikhs and Jews. How can we expect them. I have tabled these amendments to put a right wrong the ethnicity

15:46

Preet Kaur Gill MP (Birmingham Edgbaston, Labour )

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data and public bodies collect is often patchy and incomplete and that for Sikhs and Jews specifically data isn't collected at all. Due to the Sikhs legally recognised as ethnic Sikhs legally recognised as ethnic You would expect at the public bodies are instructed to routinely collect information on Jews and Sikhs, but they are not full stop public bodies only gives ethnic categories to deliver public services. This is why this really services. This is why this really matters.

Jews and Sikhs face discrimination that was further discrimination that was further evidenced by the 2017 race a disparity audit which found no data on Sikhs in the 340 datasets on Sikhs in the 340 datasets In recent years Jews and Sikhs have only been recorded in religious data. Religion data is rarely collected to a good standard, if at all. It excludes secular and non- practising Jews and Sikhs. It is not used by public bodies to monitor and reduce inequalities and provide public services.

How we meant to tackle discrimination and inequality of Jews and Sikhs are import visible to policymakers. That is why a new clause 22 proposes to make it a Orgies Orgies to Orgies to collect Orgies to collect ethnicity Orgies to collect ethnicity data Orgies to collect ethnicity data and ensure that within that, public bodies are required to collect data on Jews and Sikhs that are currently excluded. New clause of 23 targets specific but no less important point about the health inequalities of the persist as a result of inadequate data.

New clause 23 specifically targets that the provisions in this bill, the register of births and deaths. In order for this to be meaningful, surely the Minister agrees that the Jewish and seek death matter. If they are not included what message is this ascending to these groups. The tragic consequences of failing to recognise that the health inequalities between the different ethnic groups. Many experts in public health are now except we was too slow to recognise that some ethnic groups are dying at a far higher rate than others.

The Office for National Statistics belatedly started analysing covert -related deaths, data by religious group, a short time exercise that has since been discontinued. It found that Sikhs died disproportionately from Adjusting for other factors. It showed that Sikhs were affected in a different rate from other predominantly South Asian groups, demonstrating the inadequacy of the existing ethnic categories. The same goes for Jews who are often missing from a data that NHS collect, as acknowledged in the report from the race Observatory published in December. British Jews also died from covert and almost twice the rate of the rest of the population.

Certain genetic conditions also have a higher prevalence among Jewish people. Breast cancer, and Ashkenazi Jewish women. This amendment would take forward A1 of the race take forward A1 of the race observers nations to mandate the inclusion as a Jewish of an option for ethnicity, allowing these to collect central data for tracking health bill comes. It is right that we do the same for the seat community too. Will the Minister except accepting these amendments, given the significant argument in their favour. England and Wales is behind other countries in this.

The US Department for Health has recorded ethnicity on death certificates for records, Scotland has recorded ethnicity as part of the death registration process, sensor 2012 is up in October 2020, the previous government announced plans to lock them in England too. Despite the Minister for Equalities of the opposition, no action was taken. I'm pleased that the government is taking forward important changes to ethnicity data collection, within the death registration process. As it stands, the process would pretty much regulate the inbuilt bias, against Jews and Sikhs that do not have their own specific categories, in ONS are designed ethnicity questionnaires.

They are simply relying on existing recorded information for ethnicity. My amendment would change that, making it mandatory for public bodies to collect data for Jews and Sikhs. It is not religious differences at the make Ashkenazi women more susceptible to breast cancer. The difference between a Jewish and seek communities and be counted and not good quality saving lives. That is why introduced a 12 minute bill last year. My campaign had wide support from the Jewish and seek I do not intend to bring my amendments to a vote.

I hope the government will bring forward changes in the mandate the inclusion of Jewish and seek ethnicity categories, for the purpose of a public service delivery. To unlock the current data, to transform lives. That data must be fair. Sikhs and Jews, so no longer be invisible, to policymakers.

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I rise to speak in support of the amendment and brought forward by the member, in my name and others. member, in my name and others. Having got it. It hasn't been selected today, nonetheless. It is worth talking about. This amendment worth talking about. This amendment is quite simple, in a way. It's key is quite simple, in a way. It's key point is that it prevents the transfer of UK user data. Data transfer of UK user data.

Data rights, cannot be enforced, there is no credible right of address.

15:52

Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)

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no credible right of address. Current UK law allows UK companies to transfer user data to their international partners, in jurisdictions, where there is no credible appeals process. And no predictable rule of law. And this is basically putting the power in the hands of those who have contracts Clauses. They create the illusion of protection, but in actual fact they do not. In reality, the data transfer is an aside, either because the prospect of a state interference is a real, or the conditions for the protection data transfer simply are not present.

We rely too much on the idea that somehow the contract law, in the UK will protect the data that is being transferred, across to other countries. This is about countries where these rules do not apply. So transferring data to regimes such as China, for example, is not just a threat to the UK citizens, privacy and resource, national security, personal information, health records, financial details, biometrics, genomics or location data can be assessed under China's national intelligence and law, which compels organisations to cooperate with state intelligence work.

This is not speculation, it is well known and established law of China. That is not only China, but I use a China is a very good example on this, because they are regular abuses of data. We have been unbelievably stupid, across the board, in companies etc. In assuming a straight away that these rules would apply to the companies and they can't. Then the National Security Law, they are told, you will provide data, as and when we require it, from whatever source you have access to.

It is quite interesting, quite now, in the case of TikTok, the Irish data protection Commissioner recently fined TikTok, not an inconsiderable sum of 530 million. They found that the country had illegally transferred EA EA transfer data to China. Chinese law, as I said already, offers no essential equivalent to protection and GDPR, due to state surveillance laws. And the lack of judicial oversight. Not alone by the way, because of course I have written on a number of occasions about the stupidity of the contract law, covering things like, for example pregnancy tests and also covert tests, which were dominated by Chinese companies, ball -- the biggest genomics company in the world.

It was allowed to have about 15% of the data that they gathered, for the tests, to be held by them, for use, back in China. They are using that data we now know, working with AI companies, to develop test and references, to the weaknesses, in a certain ethnic groups. You can see what has already been going on in Xinjiang, where they are deliberately targeting a group, through genocide, to get rid of troublesome ethnic group. They are also looking at areas that exist in Europe, as it weaknesses that may well in turn be usable.

We have allowed them, under this contract to have that data and presume at that it would be protected. It has been transferred and is now being used for military usage. Those are just two examples. It is interesting that Ireland has actually already done this. Let's not forget that in 2022, Shanghai police database leak, where the personal data of over a billion Chinese citizens, departmental details was left openly accessible online, for over a year, without any enforcement action, on government accountability.

I congratulate the honourable gentleman forgetting this amendment, it goes to the heart of what it means, in a sense, to believe in democracy. The values of the rule of law, dignity of the individual, rightly states of an a third country can be considered adequate if it lacks credible means for judicial protection. The Minister of redress, more statutory legal remedy and it aligns closely with the high thresholds set by the judgement and ensure that the standards do not fall below those upheld and held amongst our friends,

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in the European Union as well. He is making a formidably

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He is making a formidably important point. He highlights quite important point. He highlights quite extraordinary weaknesses in this bill, which reverse the GDPR, for a large part of citizen protection. Just to reiterate, the point he Just to reiterate, the point he made, rather gently, that enormous made, rather gently, that enormous fine won't stop TikTok, because they are operating under a legal compulsion. Even though they paid compulsion. Even though they paid 450 million, they will still continue with a criminal offence that they have just been convicted of.

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I agree with you, that is the peculiarity of the honourable gentleman, as in the Minister here gentleman, as in the Minister here on this. He knows only too well, about the nature of what goes on in countries like China. Chinese companies are frankly scared stiff companies are frankly scared stiff of a cutting of course, what the government tells them they had to do, because what happens then is do, because what happens then is quite brutal. What we have to do is figure out how we protect this data, from ill use, by bad regimes.

Use a China's example, because they are simply the most powerful of these regimes was that there are many others that do not observe the data protection, in the way we seem under contract law. That, for example, I came in I spoke about BGI, the hardest thing of the data that they have gleaned, of covert tests, and their dominance, in the market, in terms of pregnancy testing is quite staggering. They have been allowed to take officially 15% back, but they have taken, I believe considerably more.

That is just one area, genomics is a huge and vital area, right now. Because it will dominate everything in our lives and it populates AI, with an ability to describe and recreate the whole essence of individuals. So this is not casual. We talk about AI being used, in terms of the creative industries and I have a vested interest in that. My son is in the creative industries and he will be supporting what has been said by many others. This goes a whole quantum leap, way in advance of that.

So, you may not even know in the future, by the nature of who they are and he will talk to. What their vital statistics are, in that It It is It is providing It is providing a It is providing a yardstick It is providing a yardstick against which all third countries should be measured. If we are to maintain the UK standard as a nation upholds privacy, the rule of law and democracy and accountability, we must not allow data to be transferred to regimes at the fundamentally do not share these values.

I think it is high time we did this. I'm glad to see that the Minister nods his head. He may look again at this amendment. Old involvement in an organisation that

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he knows I'm still a part of. He might think to himself, maybe this is worth doing, finding some way through this. I don't know who he's asked my views, just because I've become a views, just because I've become a Minister. He is making important set of points. I do think, however that of points. I do think, however that they are met by their changes in the they are met by their changes in the schedule, already. To ask 40 5B, which is not an exhaustive list of things that the Secretary of State things that the Secretary of State may consider.

The point is that he is referring to are certainly things

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that that the Secretary of State could consider and should, I would argue. I hope that might find its way onto the face of the bill, in a onto the face of the bill, in a little more than description. I little more than description. I understand he understands this as well. Although we're not going to be moving this to a vote, I do hope that the Minister and the government realises that we are up against powers that, sometimes we have no comprehension of how big and comprehension of how big and important they are and how they dominate their own producing companies, in every international companies, in every international market that they have.

And until we wake up to that and understand the real threat, not just to the ability to create, but also the ability to exist, as who we are. I think that we may come to terms with this. I hope the government, listening, the honourable member knows we work together are many issues to do with Russia and China. That they really think about this and, with a slightly tighter version, in a line, slightly with the honourable gentleman, and his amendment. I gentleman, and his amendment.

I

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I have tabled a new clause 18 and

16:01

Jon Trickett MP (Normanton and Hemsworth, Labour)

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16:15

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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I agree with the honourable lady. Given the personal example and I Given the personal example and I should have said about my register the members interests. But for the last five decades, artists work with the technology available for the first thing they turn to when they go to the studio to make any recording, the first thing they do and they are looking for all sorts of innovation in the film industry, is to suggest that somehow people working the greatest actor won't embrace this new technology and use it for all it is worth.

An absurd I want to refer to the public campaign, I'm sure I'm not alone to have a inbox full of concerned constituents. Constituents are right with artists, in the creative sector, when it comes to this. You will know, I have been trying to evangelise about the value of popular intellectual property rights, for two decades. I felt I was having a quieter job getting through and reaching our constituents. By God have they got it now. They understand and appreciate that it is our goal standard copyright regime that underpins our success, in the creative sectors, right around the world.

It is our IP rights in copyright to ensure that the artist that they love and are writing on behalf of properly rewarded for the works that they produce and are recognised for the wonderful things that they bring stop and isn't it ironic, just at the point where our constituents are starting to get it and see the value of copyright, we have a government who is moving away from the central principles of it and maybe at the point of watering down the copyright regime that is given a sustained success, over all of these years.

I want to thank the campaign and the artist that do this. It is move the government on it significantly, we have now seen them abandon their preferred tout mechanism, when it comes to their consultation. I think on that we welcome that. Instead of resolving the debate, but it seems to be the government are doing is kicking it into the long gross. No man's land of economic assessments of reports, of consulting the sector. That might take years, we haven't got years.

We actually have artificial intelligence, just now, in the form of the bot 's, in the form of the training machines. Hoovering up, sucking up all our cultural heritage, at this very point. This is pressing and we need to have the solutions to this now. The government has done is that we have introduced new clause 16, 17, I don't think anybody can have a problem with that. It is good to see that they finally put a brake on their ambitions when it comes to their opt out.

What we need is real action. Let us hear more about the dynamic licensing and enforcement system that the Minister continually goes on about. If we have to have legislation, we have not got years left, in order to do all of this. This could take up to 12 months, just to get the reports, the government mentions, within these amendments. Beyond that legislation has are to be, Parliament has to debated here, it has got to be implemented. We haven't got the years, in order to do this.

And every day that we delay, more of our cultural heritage is scraped, reused and monetised, by tech giants. We can't afford to sit back and wait for years. Our creators that deserve protection now, not after irreversible harm has been done. The amendments that we have here today, in front of us offer that protection to stop take this seriously. Our creators are simply ask to be treated fairly and compensated for all the work that they do and they want to have their right to control their work, that is used.

Transparency, I think is where we hoist a flag. I think it is the hill that we now fight on. The most practical solution. There is no reason why we can't have full transparency. There is no reason why artisan creators and vendors shouldn't know that there work has been scraped, by AI bots. There is no reason why we can't make sure that we deal with this and make sure that all of our musicians have the right to sell their rights.

The only thing that is stopping this as a fit of anger in the tech lobbyist. The property rights of 2.4 million creatives, who contribute £126 billion, to the UK economy, every year, is something that we must take

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seriously. AI, yes of course. The honourable gentleman is right, we refer to creatives right, we refer to creatives throughout this debate. Can I just remind him, in the earlier debates, remind him, in the earlier debates, new journalists, we have expressed new journalists, we have expressed our concern, with regard to Journalist, but also photographers, we represent them as well. The union position is very straightforward, adherence to copyright, openness and transparency in all of this was the regulation of the future of the mechanisms that will be used for mechanisms that will be used for scraping, in particular.

It actually

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scraping, in particular. It actually Of journalism that our democracy rests. He is right to remind us about

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He is right to remind us about journalism. It is right that he raises. One of the things that were seen as a feature of both the clumsy seen as a feature of both the clumsy way the government approached these issues, is the unity that exists, right across the sector, taking what is happening in journalism, we have seen some fantastic coalitions of interest. Emerging out of all this. Another positive that is developed from that. I just hope that they are satisfied, when they see the outcomes, when it comes to this.

The last thing I want to say is that AI and creativity can work together. I gave an example to the honourable lady. I think this is something we have all been encouraged to think about. But somehow there is a diversion opposition between our creative sector and artists, those involved in the tech sector, particularly. There isn't and there should be an approach that works for everybody, involved in that. The AI companies are no our content is immensely valuable. They refuse to pay for anything at present, not because they don't understand the value, but because they have spotted an opportunity to hoodwink governments, around the world, into believing they shouldn't have to pay I just made the observation that one of my colleagues had one of these conversations with the aye-aye sector and she was very enthusiastic about the idea that there would be an enormous amount of growth, in this country, if they were able to adopt what they wanted.

She said them and what would you like? They said we want the BBC archive, for free. I would just like to observe that in these kind of circumstances we need to think not only about transparency, but the second stage which is licensing. Because without the opportunity for small creators to have the power to permit and to therefore be paid, all of this will

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be for nothing. Spot on, the Minister continues to go on about licensing to go on about licensing arrangements. That is the territory that we want to move onto. We need that we want to move onto. We need to hear about government ambitions right now but what they're planning to do. Just to say to the honourable to do. Just to say to the honourable lady, she should have a look at the submissions and the consultation of other big tech companies. Look at other big tech companies.

Look at OpenAI submissions. An opt out too far from them. That is the sort of issues that were dealing with. Lastly, I have enjoyed working with Labour colleagues and of course in Labour colleagues and of course in the past year. As usual, I think the past year. As usual, I think they recognise some of the difficulties I have within the sector. I appeal to them, tonight, sector. I appeal to them, tonight, to support the particular new clause to, for most of the vote. There is no point saying all the right things.

It is about going in the things. It is about going in the right direction in assuring that we get this. There is no other chance. get this. There is no other chance. This is the opportunity we have to offer some protection to our creative sector the course, nothing else is going to appear. We'll all get involved in the consultation, will be taking part in the legislation, but that is years away. This is the only thing that we can do to offer some support to the creative sector and I urge everybody to support these amendments here this evening.

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I call Alisson Gardner. I would like the opportunity to speak today like the opportunity to speak today in support of this bill and to address some of the amendments races that I want to focus primarily on 16 and 17, with regards to new clause 17, the report on copyright and AI 17, the report on copyright and AI 17, the report on copyright and AI systems. Oh well in section 3B the use of data by developers and AI use of data by developers and AI systems.

And the example of text and data mining, specifically updated. I note that developers are specifically broken down to individuals, micro-businesses, small businesses and medium-sized businesses and it is right that businesses and it is right that there is this regularity. Considering and making proposed for Considering and making proposed for the disclosure of information of developers of AI systems, regarding the use of copyright data, to develop AI systems and how they develop AI systems and how they access that copyright data, e.g. By web crawlers.

I'm very pleased to see including report discussions of licensing and again exploring, in granular detail, the impact of licensing system, on all levels of developers. However, I would like to see an equal level of granularity from copyright owners, in understanding the effects and proposals, outlined in part three. I understand that, in part four a, it requires preparing a report the Secretary of State must consider the likely effect of proposals on the UK, copyright owners, as well as developers and users of AI systems, as referenced in part 4B.

Whilst I as referenced in part 4B. Whilst I note the final part of this section, references individuals, businesses etc., again, I feel there is a etc., again, I feel there is a little vagueness here. As to whether there is at this level of granularity of auditor copyright granularity of auditor copyright owners as well. Oh cool, yes.

16:25

Dr Allison Gardner MP (Stoke-on-Trent South, Labour)

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That is not intentional, is exactly the level of granularity in

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our reporting. I will just throw the rest of my speech away. I shall continue. I speech away. I shall continue. I shall persevere. With respect to shall persevere. With respect to this, I am raising whether this report will explore initiatives individual creators, micro-creative businesses and a small publishers. businesses and a small publishers. Can I push it further, I just think about David Attenborough a lot on TikTok and they seem to be an awful TikTok and they seem to be an awful lot of David Attenborough TikTok videos.

It is not David Attenborough. I wonder whether this might extend to personality rights as well. And a definition of what a small rights owner could be. I will

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squeeze that in. Oh OK. I'm personally in favour of doing something about personality rights. Weren't one of the things in the consultation we will be responding consultation we will be responding on. -- It is one of the things.

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My next question, you may have already forwarded it, I asked what reassurances can be given that smaller creatives, including micro- businesses will be considered in the reports and they will have the reports and they will have the confidence that systems will work for them, particularly when we consider the individual earning consider the individual earning career, strumming away on is bedroom, pre-fame days and how they can protect their copyright works can protect their copyright works With regards to new clause 16, the economic impact on how that will consider the impact on copyright owners and AI developers.

I want to switch him from talking about copyright owners, to actually trying copyright owners, to actually trying to defend the AI industries. If we do not get the controls right, we risk the long-term success of mid risk the long-term success of mid risk the long-term success of mid and long-term of the AI industry. If we do not get a fair solution for both the creative and AI industries, we risk a reduction in the quantity and potentially quality of human creative data and an increase in AI-generated creative data.

I will AI-generated creative data. I will segue here, just briefly, because there is a case that we are developing a lot of AI creative content and that in itself might be subject to copyright, which would be interesting in a report, just recently pointed out that 80% as part of our content is eight now AI-generated. If anyone will remember, there was a big Hoo hah in photography, I think it was mentioned from photographers that an AI generated image one a photographic competition.

That caused a lot of disturbance. If you looked into how the photographer developed and produced that photograph there was a lot of skill in that, no that wasn't a photograph, it is a category all on its own. That is also copyrighted content. I'm creating a grey area there. That aside, the danger we do face though if we are starting to generate more and more created data and less human generated data, because of the challenges to the creative industry, there is a danger that AI models will start scraping and training on AI-generated data, potentially a reductive spiral of mediocrity, with some suggesting this could subject in a model collapse.

With regards to both 16 and 17, I would encourage consideration of the impact of not employing proposals such as licensing and protecting the generation of nuclear human creative content, not just for the creative industries but in the longer term AI models and developers themselves. I will, comment on my honourable friend Newcastle upon Tyne, Central and West, on her amendments 37 and 38, she outlined the reasons, so I'm not going to go into a lot of detail, in those amendments now. I want to point out that getting a definition correct, for scientific research, will prevent a loophole, where AI companies can be seen as personal data, claiming their commercial development is a scientifically researched, they offers transparency to the use of data by researchers in order to maintain confidence in this country's high standard of ethical, legal and professional academic research.

I hope the Minister will give careful consideration to those points raised. And I am now going to give the Whip a heart attack. I was going to reference 41 to 46, but she is not to worry. With regards to clause 80 and which references article 22, the UK GDPR, which is close to my heart. I read those with great interest and I understand the backup with those. I am a newbie, MP. So I understand. In my understanding, I felt, as I read it, with a little work I had done in my previous job with the regulators, that it felt more like a secondary legislation and I just wonder if that is something that could be considered for the future? Particularly with and 46? Some are very welcoming additions in there.

With regards to primary legislation, the Bill as it stands, I felt that it might work better. I just want to then go off piste a little bit, little bit more and I want to support my honourable friend, and Birmingham Edgbaston, in terms of trying to make sure that we have accurate data. Filling the data gaps and existing databases. It is very, very, very important that we address that and that was worthy of consideration. I will say that I looked at new clause 21, with an equal open mind, because it is vitally important that we do collect biological sex sex in order to protect women and trans people, going forward.

I did approach it with an open mind. I had a developing sense of the needs, in this determination of accuracy of data, how does that impact upon the individual. If you start looking at just those two (Protected Characteristics), what about the other (Protected Characteristics). I felt there was a little bit of a slippery slope there and I'm wondering if I would have two go for my religion, my sexuality. Growing needs with that clause. I do support the idea of data collection, both of data identity and biological sex, it is very important.

The information where there enzyme sits between a male and female bodies. There is a reason why men don't get drunk easy. I tell you now because I started, it is located in the stomach, that will make it relevant. In the stomach, with women it has to be in the liver. In a men alcohol gets broken down before it even gets into the bloodstream. It has got nothing to do with body mass ratio. This highlights the importance of biology in getting accurate data, in terms of health and scientific research.

of health and scientific research.

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I will be starting with a five minute time limit.

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minute time limit. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Has many members will be aware, my Has many members will be aware, my constituent knows only too well the tragedies that can potentially take place as a result of social media. I'm pleased she's here to join us in I'm pleased she's here to join us in this debate in pursuit of Jules Law. this debate in pursuit of Jules Law. 2022, he had tragically lost his life to stating. In the following life to stating.

In the following months, she battled social media months, she battled social media giant in trying to access social media data as she sought answers about what happened leading up to his death. I'm grateful to the

16:33

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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his death. I'm grateful to the Shadow Minister. In her search for answers, Ellen found us blocked by social media giants placed process ahead of compassion was the police did not see a reason to undertake a full investigation into her social media. The inquest not require a thorough analysis of Jules online account. Note social media companies would grant access. A court order was needed which incurred eye- watering fees. The legal system is equipped to tackle the complexity of social media.

The past when a loved one died, their family would be able to find these sorts of things and they had information in their possession, perhaps in children's diaries or books or cupboards. But now when so much of our lives as bent online, personal data is kept by social media giants. The amendment in my name would change this. I understand there are technical and legal difficulties around this and and the Minister met with Ellen this morning. We are grateful for the time that they gave.

This will not go to a vote today but we will keep pushing because Ellen and other parents like should not have to go through this to search for answers in the case of a child who has died. I understand that in this bill there are provisions that are being made which will take steps forward. But we want to keep pushing and will hold the government feet to the fire and future governments.

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It was great to meet this morning and I'm sorry it was so late and so and I'm sorry it was so late and so close to report stage. I wish it had been earlier. We were serious and the meeting this morning, we will do all we possibly can to make sure all we possibly can to make sure that coroners understand both the powers and their duties in this regard. They should be operating regard. They should be operating with families, and the prosecuting authorities as well if necessary.

But also the technical companies But also the technical companies embrace this point that they need to

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embrace this point that they need to look after the families of those who have lost loved ones. I thank the Minister for intervention. He is actually right, there are clear issues of processing. There are differing approaches across the country, different coroners taking different approaches, different police forces taking different approaches. In the taking different approaches. In the words of ministers have weight. I hope coroners and police forces are taking note about what needs to taking note about what needs to happen in the future, and a full investigation into the deaths of investigation into the deaths of children who have perhaps suffered misadventure as a result of social media are properly investigated.

On related matters, NC1 gain the support of parents like Ellen. We need to move further and faster as this government has promised on various things. This issue of social media and online safety, and I'm pleased that a clear position has been set out on this. I wanted the issue of copyright protections. I held a roundtable with creatives in somewhere that is home to many tech businesses and AI companies. The creative industries in my town are also extremely strong. What I hear is a lot of concern about the need to protect copyright for our creators.

The industry remains concerned with the approach that this government is taking. This industry is worth £124 billion or more every year. The effects on this on our culture should not be understated. We would be far poorer if our creators could not make a living from their artistic talents. There is a risk this is being undermined, if the government took away protections. I know ministers have been listening on this, if they were to remove the protections it would tip the scales in favour of AI companies and a cost to the creative industries will stop when you ask AI companies where the jobs will come from, the answers at the moment are just not there.

The amendments tabled by my honourable friend would reinstate these copyright protections at all levels of AI development and reinforce the law as development and reinforce the law as it currently stands. It is only fair that where creative work is used that the creator is possible properly compensated. The government has made positive noises in this issue in multiple debates over the last few months. This is a positive sign. And on all sides of the house we have developed a consensus on where things need to move.

Creatives remain uneasy about the indications for their work in our waiting firm action. Listeners may wish to tackle this with firm action and I understand this might not be dealt with today. Our amendments would enable that to happen. But they also have an opportunity today. Nothing would send a stronger signal of support and government support members from across the house supporting the amendments my honourable friend has put today. I would implore all members to back those amendments. Thank you.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to speak with reference to clauses 4, 16, 17. This is an clauses 4, 16, 17. This is an ambitious piece of legislation, a weighty piece of legislation, and

16:39

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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weighty piece of legislation, and huge chunks of it we can agree on. There is anxiety in the media particularly the local media has had a torrid time in recent years, from Brexit and the pandemic. I want to thank UK Music, and UK directors for engaging with me on this issue and the generosity that has been afforded to backbenchers in discussing this. AI offers massive opportunities to make public services and businesses more efficient and effective stop this will improve people's lives.

But there is a fundamental difference between using AI to manage stop distribution and making scientific breakthroughs that will improve people's health and the generative AI that is used to produce literature, images, music. The latter effects the creative industries which have consistently seen faster and more substantial growth than the overall economy. The creative industries Gross Value Added grew by 50% in real terms compared to the overall UK economy which grew by around 1/5 between 2010 and 2022. That is why the government is right to have identified the creative industries as a central plank of the dust your strategy.

And within 12 months as outlined in clauses 6 and 17. I welcome that. I know it is not the government's intention to deal with copyright and licensing as part of this bill but because of that anxiety, these issues have become conflated. Scraping is already happening without transparency or remuneration in the current framework. The change in this sector and the risks of tariffs from across the pond means it is imperative we deal with the threat this poses to creative industries as soon as we can.

We are now facing tariffs on UK firms going to the USA increases this imperative was the I welcome the government's equipment to engage with the creative industries and impairment a program to protect the creative industries following its consultation. I would welcome an overview from the Minister in his summing up about the progress that is being made with that. The more we delay, the worse the impact will be on a creative sector. I am also concerned that in the government's correct mission to deliver economic growth, may inadvertently compromise the U.K.'s robust copyright laws.

Instead we should seek to introduce changes so creative works cannot be scraped by UK firms without providing transparency or remuneration the creatives find it. Failure to protect copyright is not just bad for the sector as a whole, or the livelihoods of authors, photographers, musicians and others, but it is bad for our self- expression. Our robust sector can be and how it can bring communities together, and invites us to ask questions about the human condition. Allowing creators to be uncredited or undercut, lead to a synthetic imitation that would disrupt the creative market enormously.

We are not talking about is enough. I know it is tempting to lure the USA AI firms into the UK given the state of the economy. It is a sugar rush. But we risk significantly draining economic value from a crate of industries which are one of the U.K.'s most strong pillars about strong power. None of this is easy. The EU has grappled with creating a framework for this for years without finding a solution I do not envy what the government 's navigate.

I would also like to ask the Minister about reports that the government is moving away from an opt out system to licensing that emerged over the weekend which creators have said will not work, and perhaps this will be the government's position. Harnessing the benefits of AI, economic, social, and innovative, monitoring the rights of creatives are protected is not something which is diametrically opposed. We must ensure transparency and AI including new clause 4 so new tech companies some of whom are in cahoots with the more troubling aspects of the US administration do not end up with the power to create an understanding of the world which reflects their own priorities.

AI says transparency will effectively reveal their trade secrets but that is not necessarily the case, as my honourable friend said. A simple mechanism to alert creatives whether content is used within the abilities of these is well within the ability of these sophisticated companies. They just need prodding by the government to do it. I know the government is working hard and cares passionately about the sector and economic and social value it brings. I look forward to hearing about how the government will move at pace to address concerns outlined even if it cannot do it through the bill.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister referred in his opening The Minister referred in his opening remarks to the fact that this bill has been a long time stop it is has been a long time stop it is actually very nearly two is since the first meeting of the Bill Committee which I attended to take through what was pretty much an through what was pretty much an identical bill. In that time, it was very uncontroversial, and the very uncontroversial, and the opposition supported it.

Indeed I support it today. There is a lot which we have not discussed because which we have not discussed because it is universally accepted things like the national underground, and smart data provisions, things like smart data provisions, things like the relief of GDPR. But I congratulate Baroness Kidron who

16:44

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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successfully attached to the bill amendment to address a different but vitally important issue which is the

16:44

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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protection of creative industries on

16:45

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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16:52

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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colleagues and the creative sector. The existing legal framework is not fit for praying for us and and the face of a new developing AI technologies, with regards to copyright and colleagues of a much greater expertise and knowledge of the myself have risen to speak and to contribute to this debate today. I however would just like to offer a reflection and draw attention to the experience of the individual, one of my constituents, as I believe that it highlights that the real human impact that big tech companies running rampant, over copyright laws, can really, truly have.

My constituents Susan Merritt is an author, she has had a 30 to have her books, she calculates over a million published words used by matter, without her consent. This pirating of material has a serious human impact on those in the creative industries. Susan's life work, her industries. Susan's life work, her , was downgraded and devalued, almost instantaneously. Her intellectual property was access, without permission and used to inform an AI system, designed to mimic our work. Susan described this to me and she said she feels is violated as if someone had come into her house and stolen her things.

She is not alone. I have been contacted by other professionals, in the creative industries, in my constituency, who also had publish material used without their consent, Bay AAI. A local author who has had their work harnessed through an online library of pirated books and illustrator who says that her work was scraped, to train an AI model with images and videos, taken from a website and social media, without her permission. This practice is widespread and plainly wrong. Even to a lay observer whose are not versed in technical expertise.

Rights holders often impotence against the big tech companies, and

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their sizeable financial and legal assets. I thank my right honourable friend for giving way. I'm just observing that there is also an observing that there is also an issue about territoriality on this. We have actually managed to get We have actually managed to get protection, this country, some for example deepfakes. If something is made abroad cannot be used in this made abroad cannot be used in this country. Does my honourable friend agree with me we should be able to have a similar carveout for creatives, such as the honourable friends constituents and indeed friends constituents and indeed mine, so that if AI-generated material is made elsewhere, that it material is made elsewhere, that it cannot be deployed in this country, in order to be able to preserve a proper legislation, in this country and a framework to protect the

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and a framework to protect the creative rights of our creatives. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for her intervention and I agree, that our current, she highlights a very strong issue, that our current copyright laws are basically being copyright laws are basically being infringed upon, with no recourse and Are rights holders are unable to seek the recourse that they fully deserve, under the law. And there should indeed be a carveout, that content, in this country, should be illegal, they should have recourse to law and be able to protect their own copyrighted material.

And I am pleased to see government amendments, the government commitment to action, on this complex issue and I hope that they complex issue and I hope that they Time, in the House, for us to look at this issue in the round and properly investigate the impact of policy options, which will be considered as part, I hope, as part of the consultation. I also understand the complexities of legislating within this area and I do understand, fully creative, those in the creative industry, they want to see action now and that is quite understandably so.

We must create a system that can feasibly and effectively enforce existing copyright law, for transparency, the use of materials, by AI systems, a numerate rights holders. I support the government's plans to do this with proper scrutiny of the measures, rather than an addendum to a piece of legislation. I appreciate there is a balance to be struck, The creative and tech industries. We cannot expect creatives to forfeit their rights, to serve this purpose. As my constituent is at pains to point out, there are real people, at the bottom of this.

Real livelihoods at stake, that is already being impacted by unregulated AI. It is absolutely crucial that we get this right. Provide a much-needed legal certainty, to protect intellectual property, in the creative industries. This also must happen soon, because one infringement of copyright law go unaddressed, it is showing and are vital creative

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industries, who are losing out. Before I call the next beaker, amendments will see many people, please be mindful when taking interventions. I'm having to impose

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a four-minute time limit. We live in a rapidly changing world and I'm sure, like anyone else I'm guilty of handing my data to organisations every hour of every day. Oblivious to the impact on my day. Oblivious to the impact on my privacy and I'm guilty of observing privacy and I'm guilty of observing and using content, assuming that its trustworthy and obtained fairly. On the other hand my generation has been fortunate to receive the been fortunate to receive the introduction of social media and the online world and have experienced a time, before it, perhaps providing us with A-level of scepticism at what we see and the ability to what we see and the ability to switch off, distance ourselves, with the onslaught to our senses that digital content provide.

Like other digital content provide. Like other interventions in the past, we are now at a crossroads. One where we must pause and not simply plough on. This bill gives us the opportunity to make clear to the tech giants that we are not giving them everything we have created, they cannot own children and that we value our data, as part of our identity. Some of the amendments presented give us a great opportunity to improve the bill, to make the most of this moment in time and to make sure we do not leave anyone behind.

We know that children's brains continue to develop until the early 20s, we know that young people's development leads them to be risktakers and adolescent and teenage years. adolescent and teenage years. Sometimes adults do have to take decisions to curtail their fund, to protect them. My own children have enjoyed a social media, from the age

16:58

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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of 13. As the sector develops, their understanding of its addictive nature improves, it is critical we reflect this in the law. Lifting the age of consent to social media data collection, as in a new clause 1, will help protect our children at will help protect our children at the time they need it. It is unimaginable to lose a child and to unimaginable to lose a child and to do so, in the circumstances where the reasons behind the death is unclear. That is why I signed my honourable friend for Chelmsford clause 11 which would allow brie clause 11 which would allow brie parents access to their child's social media content.

This should not be necessary, given that privacy not be necessary, given that privacy right do not apply to those who died. The fact that we even need died. The fact that we even need such legislation pulls into question the motivation of tech giants and tells us where the interest lies. I urge the government to support this and give us a reassurance today that and give us a reassurance today that more work is going to be done. Trust is at all-time low, with only the government, other authorities like the NHS.

AI changes how we interact with the state, and each other, the with the state, and each other, the public should have the right to know how AI is involved in the decisions are made. Transparency matters and that is why supporting the new clause is proposed for my honourable We know that if we use each other's content, we must pay for it. Or at least credit it, if we're not profiting from it. We know that if we do not we infringe the copyright. Why should tech giants, based in some far-flung base have a right to scrape that knowledge without payment.

The idea that they even needed to train their systems, off the backs of people who have used their talent, time and make their living of creativity is frankly obscene. Though I really must talk to a new clause 21 and speak strongly against it, I have been overwhelmed by the scale and distress brought about by this awful proposal. It is cruel and it completely undermines the privacy of people, at a time of their already feeling victimised. Those who have transitioned socially, medically or surgically are protected in law.

We were told that the supreme decision last month does not change that. This amendment does. If it was passed, the sex at birth would be recorded on a driving licence, passport, outing every trans person, whenever they buy an age restricted products, change the job, travel abroad or even come to Parliament to visit their MP. Not only is this a fundamental breach, it is potentially dangerous. They were prevented from travelling to countries with rights, there will be a high risk of suicide and self- harm, as they already are.

My constituent told me this is a direct attempt to raise me from a public record. Please reject this

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In the short time available to me

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In the short time available to me I want to speak to four amendment in particular. Two where I would like particular. Two where I would like to administer to think again, one where I am in total agreement with him, and one where I want to draw him, and one where I want to draw the attention of the House two. Let me stop the amendment on AI and copyright, and join with the chairs of select committees and the member of select committees and the member for South Derbyshire and indeed Baroness Kidron who joins us today Baroness Kidron who joins us today in encouraging the Minister to look again at this issue.

Because we know this is going to come back. You know this is going to come back. You know we need to move at pace. I represent Walthamstow, the home of William Walthamstow, the home of William Morris, creatives abound. But at Morris, creatives abound. But at least William Morris can protect his creation. They are moving so quickly creation. They are moving so quickly now, unless we sign up for British copyright technology will be a very copyright technology will be a very different place.

The Minister says we don't grasp this amendment we will still have copyright law tomorrow. And he is right. But we won't have the tools to deal with the technology that we are dealing with at this point in time. This is

17:02

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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not just about the Elton John or Ed Sheeran or Jilly Cooper situation. It is about thousands of creatives It is about thousands of creatives in our country and how they make the bread-and-butter. No one is opposing technology but they are saying you need to act quickly because the I hope to hear from the Minister with what you will do on that and also new clause 14 which I know is about new clause 14 which I know is about the question of transparency to help creatives exercise their rights.

I want to support what my colleague from mid Dorset said about new from mid Dorset said about new clause 21. I have always supported the appropriate collection of data and this is not the appropriate collection of data. It is the collection of data. It is the targeting of the trans community which is regressive. I want to praise the government for what they praise the government for what they are doing in schedule 11. I would wager that no one else has looked at wager that no one else has looked at it.

Section 31 of the prison act seeks to provide a mechanism to seeks to provide a mechanism to delete data which has been created as part of a malicious campaign of harassment. Schedule 11 is a technical amendments to GDPR laws that will make that act which has cross-party support impossible to enact. Parents and carers the thought of someone who disagrees might use your sources of social services and try to remove the children because that disagreement seems possible to comprehend. It is a nightmare that I myself have lived through.

And thanks to Mike local authority, I'm still living through it because the record created by that person who did this to me remains on the statute book along with the allegation that I am a risk to my children because of the views I hold. The man who made this complaint was to trigger an investigation into my private life. The judge convicted him of harassment said it was one of the worst examples of malicious abuse in public life in scene. The judge demanded that the file removed, as did I when it first came to light and he was convicted of harassment.

But the council continued to argue they have to retain that data to protect my own children from me. This is not an issue of how data is used to safeguard how data can be used to harm innocent citizens. It is not benign to have such a record associated with your name. Anyone who's ever been to A&E knows the question, is your child going to social services? Stop it is not a neutral inquiry. As we have a way of removing data designed to harass, that will perpetuate the harassment was local authority does not label fathers in the borough in the same way but argues it must retain this data by using section 47 of the children's act regarding children who might reasonably consider to be at risk of harm.

To add insult to injury, Councillor offered to delete this data but for me to add to it. A note to dispute the person who has been convicted of harassing me, while claiming my fitness to be parents, they might consider improving and including. To add more data to a file of them provide the mechanism to remove it to the link between myself, my family, and these allegations, the gentleman who harassed me in the first place. I've never received any form of apology or acknowledgement. There have always been strong grounds and legal always been strong grounds and legal processes to remove records.

It is rightly set a high bar as the previous legislation did. The consequential amendment should mean the government can pass the the government can pass the affirmative resolution to make the law a reality. We can't delete the misogyny at the heart of the council responsible we could finally delete responsible we could finally delete the records of those others like them and move on.

17:05

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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My new clause 7 is seeking to ensure that alongside the creation of a digital verification framework, there is a right to the use of non- digital ID going forward. Digital exclusion is a major challenge for many communities around the country including in North Norfolk. Part of the answer is to improve digital education and bring those numbers down. But as Age UK rightly say, it will never be possible to get everyone online. We have to make sure that the progress we make in the digital age ensures provision for those that won't be supported by it, or to ensure they are not left behind are excluded.

Older people are not really want to struggle with digital exclusion. Poverty is also a significant driver. 2021 evidence shows those off-line, more than half earn less than £20,000 a year. The government said if it turns out people were off-line they would consider legislation. How many people earning less than 20,000 a year will be taking a business through the courts? Why are we waiting for it to go wrong in putting the onus on honourable people generate test cases, and legal precedents we could put this matter to bed once and for all with this simple addition to the bill.

I also want to speak in support of new clause 1. Has been abundantly clear to all of us that we cannot trust the social media giant to keep our children safe. I would go so far as to say they have very little interest in keeping children safe. The algorithms that drive these platforms are designed to keep users scrolling for long as possible to maximise that revenue and can be deeply damaging for children and young people. It is important to emphasise how pervasive this content stream can be.

Not every man he may have experienced it but pervasive targeted content is not the same as a child seeing something distressing on the news. One scene only fleetingly. But the potential to be exposed to even traumatic content or versions of it over and over again, every few swipes, as the algorithm realises it can suck you in, keep you scrolling, and make profit for the social media giants. This is not what social networks set out to do but it is what they have become.

Whenever they have told the government it is too complex, it is just rubbish. If we remove the right to publish personal data for under 16's remove the ability of algorithms to target content based on what they say no. If social networks cared about the well-being of children they would have done this already. I hope today we can take the action necessary to protect. My views on this bill remain broadly similar to the frustrations I expressed months ago at second reading. There is in the bill important commendable and sensible stuff.

I welcome that it is what is not in abilities frustrating for it could have done so much more to make sure we use the best possible position and harness the power of data. We could have addressed the litany of failures in public sector data use which the government's own review outlined just months ago. You could be equipping our civil service and public sector with the talent, culture, leadership to make us a global trailblazer in data driven government. So it is very frustrating that this bill does not contain any of the steps necessary to make those improvements.

If we use data better, we do government better. I'm sure the whole House and all our constituents are very keen

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to see that. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. As all of us here know, data is the As all of us here know, data is the DNA of our modern life. It drives our economy, our NHS, public our economy, our NHS, public services. Often silently but ultimately very powerfully. For too long, outdated infrastructure across the British state has held us back costing us billions and straining costing us billions and straining frontline resources. This ambitious bill sets out to change that.

It bill sets out to change that. It should therefore be welcomed. For our NHS, the bill means faster and our NHS, the bill means faster and safer care. More transferable and safer care. More transferable and accurate patient data could save 140,000 hours of staff time annually, reduce duplicate lab tests, preventing 20 deaths a year tests, preventing 20 deaths a year from medication errors, and improve overall patient safety and outcomes. overall patient safety and outcomes. That is real impact.

And many hours of police time letting officers spend more time on our streets are not behind desks. The national underground asset register, as already mentioned, could bring £4 billion to our country by preventing costly infrastructure delays and accidents. This bill does not seek to just cut red tape, it boosts research, protects personal data and allows scientists and online safety experts to better access information keep all of us safer which I welcome. Turning to Artificial Intelligence and the creative industries and government amendment 16, we have all seen the potential of AIA.

But that promise must not come at the expense of those who create. I thank the dozens of constituents who have contacted me about their concerns. That is why I welcome the government's recognition of the complex intersection between AI and copyright, and the need to get this right. It is clear that we must tread carefully and base any changes on robust evidence. I'm pleased that the government is committed to publishing a full economic impact assessment that will report to Parliament on key concerns such as how AI developers and how they deal with copyrighted materials and the transparency of their methods and licensing.

I will support work on the principle of personality rights. Finally I turned to amendment 21 she opposes mandatory recording of sex at birth across all public authorities. This amendment would require all public authorities, be it the NHS which I potentially understand, or the DVLA which is that he couldn't, to record and retain people's sex at birth even when someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate. This would seemingly require that regardless of context, purpose, or relevance. This feels neither proportionate nor respectful of existing legal framework, all the trans community at this difficult time.

It is important that we acknowledge that transgender non-binary and intersex people already face considerable barriers in public life. Many of my constituents have shared with me in recent weeks just how much fear and uncertainty they are experiencing right now. Rushed amendments and changes without dialogue and debate with those impacted are not in any way welcomed and could have very negative consequences. Finally, on the theme of proportionality in protecting honourable people, I want to ask the Minister if any steps can be taken by his department in the future to end the collection and sharing of sensitive personal data when people use police, public, university, or other websites, for reporting crimes or abuses? An estate at subsequent leaping shared with third parties through tracking pixels? The use of such tools means people's information is sometimes being inadvertently shared with advertisers, I hope this is something that the government will look into and takes Italy.

can consent to having their data processed is 13. This new clause would raise the minimum age social media data processing to 16 meaning that social media companies would not be able to process the data of children for the algorithms. I hope this will allow children to enjoy many of the educational benefits from relevant services which social media can offer as well as continuing to enjoy the freedoms of engaging with friends but without the risks of addictive algorithmic content. Mental health issues associated with social media use in young people, particularly children, should be treated as a public health crisis.

The government is missing a vital opportunity with this legislation to reform how social media is used by not including provisions around children and online safety. This bill offers an important opportunity to start the process of removing harmful social media mechanisms, and I urge the Minister to support this amendment. I wish to turn to clauses 2 to6. These amendments would give rights holders more control over their work. Since about the impact of AI have been raised to be hundreds of times for my constituents, concerns which I have been raising Parliament for years.

In my Westminster Hall debates back in February 2023, and Artificial Intelligence and intellectual property rights, I raised my concerns about the bypassing of copyright laws in relation to AI election property with a former Conservative government. But the former minister blamed, the lack of former government action on this with creatives on the political turmoil in the Tory leadership at that time. Their neglectful attitudes to leadership was mirrored in the attitude towards introducing protection for creatives in this space. The conclusion that they drew from my Western soul debate was to not legislate in times of political turmoil and the need for more the consultation which did not materialise.

We can all be glad that the chaos of that government is in the past, but we are yet to see the introduction of thorough and robust copyright laws relating to Artificial Intelligence. This is fundamental to the success of the U.K.'s world leading greater industries which I hope this government will act upon today by accepting these amendments. I wish to reiterate the importance of these new clauses ensuring that AI models are bound by existing copyright law, increasing data and identity transparency and empowering creators to take legal action against developers who fail to comply.

The creative industry, like all sectors, will have to adapt to accommodate AI. The industry is capable of and already making progress with that. Creatives have largely accepted that AI generated content will have its place in the market, and they are already using AI to enhance their work by driving efficiencies and extending their reach to new markets. However a solid regulatory framework which could be created with the addition of these amendment is essential to protect their rights and to ensure that they can take part in value creation and retain

17:16

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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control over their work. I am my colleagues on these benches believe that existing copyright law should be enforced to protect the U.K.'s

17:16

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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be enforced to protect the U.K.'s creative industries which are a world leading British export. But Weasley revealed that nearly 200,000

17:16

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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Weasley revealed that nearly 200,000 YouTube videos including material created by globally recognised British musicians news channels and British musicians news channels and artists, have been scraped into a dataset used to train AI models. Content from over 40,000 creatives has been found on this dataset, yet I do not believe consent was sought I do not believe consent was sought single impact created use their work. This is not a unique case. I asked 200 creatives about their asked 200 creatives about their expenses with AI and copyright.

I had repeatedly had negative experiences any one individual who experiences any one individual who had 600 images taken to train AI models that the knowledge. It is clear that AI offers a fantastic clear that AI offers a fantastic opportunity for our economy, it must supplement and grow industries supplement and grow industries

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I am delighted to be called to speak in the report stage of the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I would like to draw members attention to my membership of the writers Guild of membership of the writers Guild of Great Britain. Before I enter this place, I worked as a screenwriter, a freelancer creating a drama for adults and children. And a Madam Deputy Speaker, I might add,

17:17

Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)

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Deputy Speaker, I might add, children are the hardest audience to please. It used to be that you have a five minutes to hook them, now it a five minutes to hook them, now it is more like five seconds. And speed is the subject of my contribution to today's debate. I warmly welcome the Minister's engagement on the issue of how best to protect our peerless creators industries. And in that spirit I'm pleased to see annual clauses 16 and 17 and the commitment to addressing the fundamental issue to addressing the fundamental issue of transparency.

At the moment AI companies do not have to tell anyone what they are stealing from the internet, from whom they are stealing and why they are stealing it. Whilst I appreciate the government's position that it wants more time, I worry that in the gap between this data bill becoming law and the new Bill, which regresses transparency and copyright, everything that can be scraped will be scraped. 12 months is a long time and plenty of time the AI companies are to continue crawling over original copyrighted material, without a care in the world and for some parts of the creative industries 12 months will be 12 months too long.

Necessity is the mother of invention and without a legal instruction for AI companies to reveal what they are using, free of charge, there is surely no incentive for the AI industry to come up with the solutions to make it simple for original creators and collected societies to assert their rights. New clauses 3, four, five and six include calls for the operators can web crawlers and AI models to legally disclose what they are doing, now. Although I understand why the government may not be supporting these amendments, will the Minister at least commit to placing a clear power to regulate on the face of the bill.

The creative industries are nervous, spooked by the previously stated preference for an opt out model and as such a move would calm the nerves and indicate that the government understands the pace at which the situation is developing and recognises the need for action. Recently, here in Westminster, Bjorn from a spoke in favour of clear transparency. Perhaps the saddest to a song is the winner takes it all. Inspired by break-ups inside the band between We must ensure that this is not a divorce of two industries which leads to the creative partner being left with the equivalent of the coffee table and the dog.

The tech industry actually needs us more than we need them. So they should be honest, tell us what they are doing behind our backs and payout. Madam Deputy Speaker when all is said and done, this government needs to send a message now that we have the backs of our creative industries and that

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priority. I rise to speak to new clause 15,

17:21

Siân Berry MP (Brighton Pavilion, Green Party)

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I rise to speak to new clause 15, but I also want to associate myself with the many honourable members who have spoken of our creative have spoken of our creative industries. Our most talented and creative minds have not been getting a fair representation from the government, up until now. It has been a very interesting and well- informed and hopefully influential debate today. New clause 15 is about privacy and safety. And providing a dedicated complaints procedure for individuals, including victims of the modern slavery, domestic abuse, and others.

How it is mishandled. This is not a theoretical question. The Independent reported on a Lola, domestic abuse victim whose home address will seek to her ex-partner, by a company that had restraining orders. She was left fearing for her life. Open minds group has laid out in its briefing, the information Commissioner's office is not as fresh as it is in cases like this. I have examples including another Council of the new address of an abused woman directly to her abuse at a former address.

Her abuser near where she lived and currently people placed at risk like this have no means to challenge the information that fails to take the right action, amendment and AC 15 is simply proposes a dedicated precocious. I cannot. It proposes a dedicated procedures to support vulnerable people making complaints and a right to appeal to the information Tribunal, large tech firms, not the people harmed by the practices. I hope the Minister will take these proposals up. On other amendments, I am fully backing the Liberal Democrats on a new clauses 2 to 6.

Democrats on a new clauses 2 to 6. Which I have signed up to and on both, new clause 1, from the Liberal Democrats a new clause in 19 from the Conservatives, I personally will abstain. This is because although I am a very minded to increase the age of digital content, from 13, given the wider information and out of harmful content and data that can be collected and used to do harm, my discussions locally with both parents and young people at Brighton Pavilion have led me to want to include both groups, and any decision on a new age that would cut people off from social media.

What that should be, we must have rapid and real, not just insulted, but collaborative processes of deliberation on this issue as soon as possible. Finally amendment and MC 21, it is a-serious concern to my constituents and I agree with them and it would constitute a gross and it would constitute a gross trans edition of privacy rights by trans edition of privacy rights by the mass... Trans people. Historical changes are made to someone's agenda pathway. I urge the government to inject this and to act further to inject this and to act further to protect trans rights, more broadly.

17:24

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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I rise to meet my new clause 14 and a moment 10, furthermore I would like to make a note of the new clause 21, which is not simply changed data protection. Individuals are based on sex at birth, regardless of the lived reality, legal recognition or consent. No one, not a government, not a local authority, not a politician has the right to define who another person is. Only an individual can do that. That is the fundamental principle of dignity and respect that transcends views and legal domains.

We must reject a new clause 21. Moving on. To my new clause 14. It is widely accepted that AI has already adjusted everything on the internet, music, films, or books. There is no legal requirement on these companies to disclose what their views, making it difficult for musicians to force at their rights. Crucially, to be paid for the work. This way urge the Minister to give a commitment to legislative print transparency and protect the creative industries. I know the Government a new clause 16 and 17, as a starting point.

We both know, a thriving content and developers. It would enable this licensing market to enforce their rights and demand for paid. An Airbus would be certain, removing the prospect of litigation. Without the incentive. Only tech firms continue to rip off musicians and

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filmmakers and authors. I fully agree with him that new technology should be a tool to technology should be a tool to improve lives, not just a mechanism improve lives, not just a mechanism fuelling more wealth into the super rich corporations. Does my honourable friend agree with me that honourable friend agree with me that the bill could go even further in

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providing greater transparency. New clause 14 does that. I hope that the government is taking note. that the government is taking note. This debate isn't just about economic rights. Last work I learnt about Holocaust survivor, who is a about Holocaust survivor, who is a book with scrape by AI, no Stark contrast to the traumatic experience for the benefit of others and a computer algorithm and stealing from computer algorithm and stealing from a Holocaust survivor to profit from suffering. It helps us process of suffering.

It helps us process of the world we live in, the world will the world we live in, the world will become a much darker place. Turning to amendment 10 regarding safe data transfer. Labour's amendments confront a glaring weakness in our regime. The continued transfer of the UK use the data in jurisdictions that cannot and do not provide basic protections, or enforceable rights. The need for this amendment is not theoretical. The current rules often rely on contracts. The international data contract agreements.

All adequately protected. That assumption is increasingly being proven. The Irish data protection commission top 550 euros million, being the depth of the EA use the data to China. The Irish authorities found that TikTok had failed to adequately assess whether the protection was equivalent to that guaranteed under GDPR. Because in China there are no credible legal remedies because of laws allow national intelligence law, cyber security law and the antiterrorism law which compel organisations to access data without judicial oversight or meaningful recourse, for individuals.

China is unable to provide A-level of protection equivalent to that under the Data Protection Act 2018 and this bill. Contracts alone do not protect users when the legal system of receiving countries incompatible with fundamental rights. This amendment produces a clear rule, where there is no meaningful enforcement, no independent judiciary, no initiative remedy or no legal power to challenge unlawful access, such countries will be deemed unsafe for UK data transfers. This bill must address at this critical blind spot, contracts alone cannot ensure user rights in jurisdictions that offer no legal safeguards.

This provides a principle legally sounds an urgent response. I hope the Minister with his background, on these issues will take it seriously and maybe meet with me to confirm how we can close with me to confirm how we can close

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this loophole, thank you. Our nominal minimum age for social media usage in this country social media usage in this country comes from a well-meaning piece of comes from a well-meaning piece of legislation in 1998, it was going to be 16 back then, 1998 was changed to be 16 back then, 1998 was changed to 13. With other GDPR again, it didn't have to be 13, the default was 16 and various countries including and various countries including Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland selected 16.

He selected 13 and that means that that age you can now sign up to social media and have your behaviour tracked for the purpose of behaviour tracked for the purpose of targeting content that adds towards you, you can start your own channel, you, you can start your own channel, you have multiple IDs and you have to make those decisions about what details of your private life you details of your private life you share. Many people just believe that 13, in terms of range of element is too young to make some of those decisions.

There are of course the decisions. There are of course the real downsides and risks and dangers from the combination of social from the combination of social media, the availability of a handheld electronic device. Addictive features, the effect on

17:29

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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sleep, either making unwanted contact with children, the rabbit

17:29

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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holes that they can fall down, the corrosive content that plays on the insecurity of adolescence. Usually

17:30

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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insecurity of adolescence. Usually when there is objection to raising the age to 16, normally the objection is some around worries objection is some around worries that pro- social applications will be hit, there will be an intended be hit, there will be an intended circumstances, children might be able to seek help or find out information about contraception or information about contraception or whatever. These were some of the reasons why back in 1998, the 16 reasons why back in 1998, the 16 became 13 and again they came up in debate over GDPR.

I worded new debate over GDPR. I worded new clause 12, to try to demonstrate how you could do it. Without any of that you could do it. Without any of that loss, by having a very broad categories of exemption. Even with those exceptions, the government was those exceptions, the government was to be able to say, sure they would say some the same things about new clause 1, very shortly. It is clause 1, very shortly. It is technically inadequate. This worded badly and it has got the wrong exception of the unintended consequences.

That is why the official opposition amendment is almost unarguable, because it has the default position that this will change, will be subject to review and making sure that all those considerations are taken into account. I also want to talk briefly to amendment nine, which I also will be pushing to a vote. HX, whatever the normal age might be, it is sort of irrelevant, if nobody actually enforces it. The Online Safety Act says that social media should enforce at their own age limits.

But very often that is done by a very simple methods of self declaration which are very, very easy to circumvent. It was a question about how we interpret the wording in the Online Safety Act, which says that age checks must be done

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Would my right honourable friend agree that self-regulation does not work? We can do it with water, sewage, or AI and tech, and they sewage, or AI and tech, and they will use our data and not tell the will use our data and not tell the regulators that they are doing so.

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regulators that they are doing so. He tempts me in to broaden the

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He tempts me in to broaden the debate but I do not think you would encourage that at this late stage but he makes a good point about self-regulation in this sector and the public, parents, children, want the public, parents, children, want us to make sure we have got the best interests at heart and the Online interests at heart and the Online Safety Act may only show the minimum should be enforced consistently should be enforced consistently rather than well but I do not think it was the will of this Parliament it was the will of this Parliament to say it would be OK to enforce the minimum age limit consistently badly but where companies should take but where companies should take steps to make sure that if it says now the minimum is 13, 16, whatever, they should make reasonable efforts to make sure it is the case.

There is more checking than usual. The recent report on clean accounts Instagram, all the avatars were able to get into social media with only self-reported but please, no additional checks, many thousands of children under the nominal age of 13 children under the nominal age of 13 on social media with many more over 13. The platform thinks that they are 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and it affects the content served to them. The ICO could tighten up minimum age rules.

I want nine requires that you happen to be compliant with ICO regulations and technology does exist and it is difficult the recent changes from Ofcom make it harder to do but it is possible and the technology will further develop. It's about backing parents who have the balance to strike and they want to make sure their children can access the opportunities but also they want to protect them from harm and parents have to expect their and parents have to expect their children will be detected from inappropriate content.

inappropriate content.

17:34

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Speaking on the new clauses 1, 11, clause 2, and the Liberal Democrats believe the government missed a trick without providing the stronger provisions of mental health safety. It's time we started looking at this and stop not acting accordingly. Children as young as nine or 10 are watching hard-core and violent pornography and by the time they are in teenage years, it is so normalised that they think violent sexual acts like chalking are normal but it was not when we were teenagers and girls are starving themselves for unrealistic Is from by airbrushed images and children are sucked in by content which promotes self-harm or suicide.

One constituent told me they set up the account at 13 to test horrors and they had context dominating litter. They did not search for it, it's found them. What kind of hell is this? It is time to give children back childhood but the new clause would help to sever the addictive nature of the endless content that rules on children and keeps them hooked. It would raise the minimum age for data processing from 13-16 rate meaning social media companies could not process the data for algorithmic purposes.

They could access to connect with friends and access services important but the amendment remains with acceptance for health education and children seeking help can find it. We now there is correlation between greater social media use between 2012 and the worsening outcomes and teachers regularly tell me children struggle to concentrate or stay awake because of lack of sleep. Some are addicted to the phones, literally. Many children using them and displaying problematic social media use. It is time to act now, not 18 months, a couple of years.

The addictive nature of the algorithm is pernicious and we can do something by passing this amendment. I believe by passing this amendment. I believe we must go further. It is time to divide legislation to save the Next Generation from the horrors of online harm. The new code provides help that ticking the box to say that you are an adult will not be enough. It is a good place to start. Let's hope it works. If it does not, we must take quick and robust action to move forward.

Because of the harm is online, I support the new clause 11 and strongly urge the government to support it. No parent should have to go through the agony. Losing a child is horrific enough but being refused access to social media data of her son to find out how he died is an unacceptable agony and must be changed and all ISP should be complied to comply. I had the Minister on coroners but I believe the legislation is needed with a requirement to release data or provide access to the account to any parent or guardian of someone under 18 who has died.

There is no reason not to support this amendment to the bill and, briefly, to echo the calls from across the House and support clause 2 in support of creatives. Creativity is a uniquely human endeavour and I've been contacted by many creators who don't want stolen many creators who don't want stolen No commission. It's vital the companies comply with copyright legislation which must be updated to meet requirements of the brave new world of technology that we now live in.

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I stand to confirm my agreement

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I stand to confirm my agreement with the new clause 1 and 12 and with the new clause 1 and 12 and associate myself with my honourable

17:38

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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friend. The protection of copyright information and revenue streams for artists, I've had several emails and will call out everyone who contacted me recently. It's essential that intellectual property is protected and artists are properly compensated if output is used in AI. On the new clause 1 and 12, the case for raising the age of consent for children from 13-16, it has been very well made across the House and so I will not repeat the words that were made.

It is essential to give our children their childhoods back. They need to be protected from the toxic content that they are being exposed to from social media and online. Regarding the new clauses 3-6 and 14, the transparency requirements under these new clauses of reporting by AI companies on Ford information, what data from where they have used and with what permission, this is absolutely essential to hold the AI companies to account and ensure that the content holders and data owners are informed and have adequate channels of redress for misuse of information.

Clause 7 I am sure has information. Clause 7 I am sure has been spoken about and the right to use nondigital verification for citizens is absolutely key and my mother who is in her late 60s, bless her, would not have a clue what to do if she did not have a family to support her through benefits claims, doctors prescriptions, appointments etc and we cannot exclude the millions of citizens when they choose not to have smartphones and be exposed to toxic content online or are just not tech literate and I actually government to ensure that we do not exclude citizens.

Finally, I support the new clause living strongly but defer to the speeches made for me and finally with clause 18, many constituents have written or spoken to me personally about concerns and about sharing private data and NHS data and other private data with third parties like this. It is essential that this new government adopts a posture of ethical transparent business practices for all suppliers that work and provide services in the country and we have heard about the background of Plantier and I do not know how true this is but some constituents believe that the Prime Minister, in his first visit to the US after meeting Donald Trump, US after meeting Donald Trump, actually visited the headquarters of one of their offices and so I urge the government...

17:42

David Chadwick MP (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, Liberal Democrat)

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Order. David Chadwick. I rate to speak in strong support of the new clause 1 and two. Clause 160 raise the age of consent for data processing from 13-16. I'm the father of two young boys concerned about tech platforms manipulate attention and shipping childhood in ways that parents and even governments cannot easily counter. It is not hypothetical but the reality children are living everyday, children aged 15 especially vulnerable and those algorithms don't just show content, they shape the news, reinforces securities, and amplify issues.

Whether it is filters, body image, these platforms are designed for engagement, not well-being. To be clear, the amendment does not ban young people from using social media but says should not be exploited for commercial gain without genuine, informed consent and by raising the age to 16 for these specific practices, we align with international best practice and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. With Clear Exemptions for Education and Health Platforms and That Makes This Targeted and Proportionate and the Priorities Is Proportionate and the Priorities Is Children's Mental Health.

To the New Clause, the AI Revolution, As We Know, Is Your Bike As We Would Not Let a Factory Operate by Stealing Raw Materials for Mothers, We Should Not Let These AI Models Trade on Copyrighted Work As Books, Music, Journalism, without Permission or Payment. The Amendment Makes One Clear Demand. If an AI System Operates in the UK, It Must Respect UK copyright law, regardless of where the servers are based and we are standing up for creators and the authors, musicians, filmmakers, developers whose work gives AI its power.

In Wales, creative industries over £1.5 billion in 2023, employing over 37,000 people. Let's not wait over 37,000 people. Let's not wait for lawsuits or damage industries. The amendment provides legal clarity The amendment provides legal clarity and informs the parliament, not Silicon Valley, writes the rules. These amendments from the Liberal These amendments from the Liberal Democrats are principled, practical, long overdue and I arch our members to support them.

17:44

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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That brings us to the front bench.

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Thank you. It's been a pleasure to listen to and hear contributions to listen to and hear contributions from across the House at the report from across the House at the report stage of the Data User Access Bill.. I pay tribute to the members for I pay tribute to the members for Gosport and Maldon who spoke with passion about the protection of copyright and AI. Looking forward to copyright and AI. Looking forward to seeing the back of this bill and the seeing the back of this bill and the Member for Chingford spoke about the importance of making sure data does not fall victim to hostile state actors and the Member for east actors and the Member for east Hampshire spoke with knowledge and authority on this important issue and the challenges and practicalities of making sure we get it right for our children.

I would it right for our children. I would like to return this to the themes we put forward and on copyright, the Minister repeatedly with assurances of guarding the application of copyright with regard to AI training but the Secretary of State created uncertainty by saying in the consultation that at present the application of copyright law is application of copyright law is This is in part a new clause painted clause form amongst other things in a formal statement from the Intellectual Property Office, I do not see why that is a challenge for the government to put forwards.

And deliver. On social media, our new clause 19 and the use of inappropriate social media services Children, for those watching online I think I will summarise the three positions which I have heard. The government position is they do not want to think about it, let's leave things as they are. The LibDem positioners they do not want to think about it but let's bring a blanket ban and our position is very much think about it, get it into a workable and effective position and then improve the protections for our children.

Finally on new clause... Very happy to give way.

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Thank you. I would just like to clarify we have thought long and hard about this along with many organisations and charities to get this right.

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this right. It is good to hear. Finally new

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It is good to hear. Finally new clause 21, our amendment is... Yes of course. I will try for 1/3 time because

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I will try for 1/3 time because we tried earlier on, the oppositions clearly brief request they are clearly brief request they are angling for a ban on social media for under 16's has been reported in multiple places. Can the shadow Minister confirm whether that is the oppositions position or not?

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oppositions position or not? For the fourth time as I have said, the amendment effectively said, the amendment effectively creates a de facto position where there are restrictions in terms of there are restrictions in terms of the use of inappropriate social media services for children. What it media services for children. What it seems to tackle is challenges around implementing petition, around age verification, around scope of social media therefore it is like I say, there needs to be work to make sure we do it and if the candidate we should move forwards in that direction.

Such as the shaking out of the Online Safety Act. Finally turning to new clause 21. Sadly our amendment has been widely misrepresented. The laws in this area are clear. The Equality Act puts into place obligations in relation to protected characteristics. In the protected characteristics of sex, the Supreme Court says this means biological sex. That public authorities must collect data on protected characteristics to meet their duties under the Equality Act. Our amendment puts this clearly in obligation into effect and builds in data minimisation principles to preserve privacy.

There is no outing of trans people for our amendment. But when public authorities collect and use sex data, it needs to be biological sex. For the data. I beg to move clause 19 to 21.

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Minister. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is good

17:49

Sir Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, it is good to see you in your seat as ever. I think all of the honourable and right honourable member's who have taken part in the debate today. If I do not get any of the individual issues that have been raised and people have wanted answers from me in the debate, I am afraid that is because the shortness of time and I will seek to write to people. Can I also particular thank the officials who have helped put together the bill.

In particular Simon Wheatley. Not least because he did not only do this bill, he did all of the previous versions of the bill as well. In previous parliaments. I think he deserves along service medal -- a long service medal is not something equally as important. I will start with issues of our new clause 1, 11, 12, 13 and amendment nine. The government of course completely shares the concern rather than ability of young people online which lots of honourable member have referred to.

The age of 13 was set in the Data Protection Act in 2018. I remember that at the time. He was a member. It reflects what was considered at the time to be the right balance between enabling young people to participate online and ensuring data is protected. Some change to protect children online is already in place as last month, Ofcom finalised the child safety codes, key pillar of the Online Safety Act. Guidance published at the same time started a three month period where all in scope services that are likely to be accessed by children will be required to assess the risk of harm their services posed to children.

From July the actual require performs implemented measures to protect children from harm, this is the point we expect to see a tangible positive difference to online experiences for children. I wish this had been able to happen earlier. I wish the act had been in a different year. But it is the act as it is. This includes highly effective age checks to prevent children encountering the most harmful content and adjusting algorithms to reduce the exposure to harmful content. Services will face tough import from Ofcom if they failed to reply.....

The government continues to serve further options in pursuit of protecting children online which is why the Department for Science, Innovation, and Technology commissioned a feasibility study on how best to investigate the impact of smartphones and social media on children's wellbeing. This will form an important part of our evidence base. I'm going to come onto his amendment in a moment if I might. The study is being led by Doctor Amy Aubin of Kingwood University, supported by scientist from the premier universities. All established institutions in the field.

They will report this month on the existing evidence base, ongoing research and recommendations for future research that will establish any causal links between smartphones, social University -- social media and children's wellbeing. It will be published along with next steps on the evidence base to support policy- making in this area. I hope therefore members will considering this extra work we are doing, withdraw their amendments. Turning to... I will not I am afraid. Turning to the amendment new clause 13, tabled by the honourable member for Harpenden, we share the concerns children's data and education must be safeguarded.

We are already committed to instructing the information Commissioner's office to produce a Statutory Code of Practice on the use of children's data by services, once the findings have been published. Defining the scope of the coding legislation now or imposing a six-month deadline for its publication risks we believe undermining that evidence led process. Lastly turning to the amendment by the honourable member over there. Amendment nine. This seeks to make sure strong age assurance measures are adopted under the new children's higher protection matters due to be in clause 81.

Of course we subscribed to that policy aim. Clause 81 however already strengthens the UK GDPR by requiring providers and information society services to take account of how providers of how children can best be protected and supported when they are designing their processing activities. The ICO's age- appropriate design code will be updated to provide clear and robust guidance on how services can meet these obligations, including through proportionate risk-based age assurance where appropriate. I will take the honourable member's intervention if he wants.

He asked first I am afraid. I have to be very cavil because I have a lot of things to answer.

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I just wanted to confirm what he referred to, the OFCOM children's referred to, the OFCOM children's quote last week is all about the 18 age group. It is a welcome move to filter out wholly inappropriate content designed for over 18's and content designed for over 18's and other harmful content but it does not do anything for the initial age threshold, the age minimum at age 13.

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13. He makes a fair point. I do need to crack on I am terribly sorry, I to crack on I am terribly sorry, I have very little time and I haven't referred to the new clauses 7, 21 and amendments 39 and 40. Let me and amendments 39 and 40. Let me start by saying the government accepts the Supreme Court ruling. But it is paramount we work through this judgement carefully with sensitivity and in line with the sensitivity and in line with the law.

We cannot simply flick the switch, we must work through the impact of this judgement properly, impact of this judgement properly, recognising this is broader than data used by digital verification services. I reflect the comment made services. I reflect the comment made earlier by the shadow Minister when he said the data accuracy is important. This is equally... Yes of

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course. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Trans people and trans- giving way. Trans people and trans- led groups have been very concerned by the amendment tabled by members by the amendment tabled by members of the opposition in new clause 21. They have rightfully described it as an attack on trans people's rights. And their privacy. Can the Minister offer some reassurance that as well as opposing this amendment today, the government will not seek to introduce similar legislation. Via introduce similar legislation.

Via other means in future.

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We are proposing the amendment and we are not intending to introduce the legislation. -- We are opposing the amendment. This is equally true for any data used in the digital verification services. That is why the government is already engaged in an appropriate and balanced range of work and data standards and data accuracy. You're standards and data accuracy. You're already developing data standards on the monitoring of diversity and information including sex, via the Data Standards Authority. Following Data Standards Authority.

Following the review the office of statistics regulation published updated regulation published updated guidance on collecting and reporting data and statistics about sex and gender identity last year. All government departments are considering now how best to address the recommendations of the Sullivan review which we have published. This is the first reason why we will not be supporting the new clause amendment today. Simply we believe concerns regarding the way in which public authorities process sex and gender data should be considered holistically, taking into account the effects of the Supreme Court ruling and the specific particular requirements of authorities.

By contrast the new clause and the amendment would undermine the work the government is already doing. In giving the Secretary of State a new regulatory rule it would undermine the existing processes that ensure compliance with the U.K.'s data protection. Secondly the new clause is misplaced. The bill does not alter the evidence which can be relied upon to prove sex or gender. Indeed it does not seek to alter any of the content of data used by digital verification services. Instead the bill enables people to do digitally what they can presently do physically.

It is for organisations to consider what specific information they need to verify in their particular circumstances. Any inconsistency between what they can do digitally and what they can do physically would obviously so further decision. Thirdly the new clause is unnecessary because it is very unlikely that digital services would be used in many if not all of the cases raised by honourable members, such as within the NHS to gain access to single sex wards of the screening. Or to enter other female only spaces.

We expect digital verification services to be primarily used to prove things like one's own, one's rights to work, one's age, address or professional law or educational convocations. Not matters where sex or gender is relevant at all. Fourthly the new clause go significantly further than the findings of the Supreme Court. Finally the proposals have the potential to interfere with the right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act by requiring public authorities to record sex as biological sex in all cases, regardless of whether it is justified or proportionate in that given circumstance.

In addition, the amendment does not take account of the fact that the Gender Recognition Act gives those with Gender Recognition Certificates A-level of privacy and control of who has access to information about their gender history. As for amendment 39 it would create further uncertainty as it appears to prevent use of clause 45 in all cases use of clause 45 in all cases involving sex. As I have set out while I understand the reason for tabling these amendments, I fear they would create legal confusion, uncertainty and inconsistency.

I also note they would not part like they were not part of the previous government's version of this bill which nearly all respect of this section was identical to ours. Given the narrow scope of digital verification services measures the need to consider this area holistically to ensure alignment with existing legislation and upcoming EHRC guidance and the breadth of work already being carried out I hope the honourable member will withdraw his amendment. There is one other amendment referring to digital verification services that, which is clause 27.

New clause 27 from the honourable member for Harpenden. I completely share her concerns about digital inclusion which also mentioned by the gentleman at the back. We have published our own digital inclusion Action Plan but such obligations could be particularly challenging for businesses currently operating so -- solely in the digital sphere, for example online banking. Taking a blanket approach and the weight proposed would not be proportionate. I urged her to withdraw her amendment. Scientific research, my honourable friend the member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central putter amendments 37 and 38 forward.

This add further conditions to the definition of scientific research. I understand your concern and we want to prevent misuse. The bill does not expand the meaning of scientific research. Ready contains safeguards such as in clause 86 such as wording from two external documents, neither of which were intended to be legally binding or to define scientific research. I am very happy to consider and continue having these conversations with my honourable friend but I urged her to withdraw her amendment. On access to NHS data at my honourable friend, the member for Normanton and Hemsworth raised.

Let me just answer his direct question about the sale of NHS data. The Secretary of State for Health has said categorically the NHS is not this a and patient data is not for. End of story, I hope we can put that one to bed. On ethnicity data raised by my noble friend for Birmingham Edgbaston, she made a very valid point which we are intending to pursue. Public bodies usually collect ethnicity data in line with the Office for National Statistics harmonised standard.

The ONS is currently reviewing this and I am sure she will want to feed into that process. I am afraid I have not had time to refer again to AI and

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copyright but this country is... Order, order. Under the order of the House of 12 February I must now the House of 12 February I must now put the questions necessary to bring proceedings on consideration to a conclusion. The question is conclusion. The question is government new clause 16 be read a second time. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. contrary, "No". The ayes have it.

The question is that clause 16 be The question is that clause 16 be added to the bill. The ayes have it. We come to Government a New Clause We come to Government a New Clause 17. I called the Minister to move formally. The question is that the formally. The question is that the clause be added to the bill. As many clause be added to the bill. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." The as of that opinion, say, "Aye." The ayes have it.

Clause 1 has been selected for a separate decision. I called the Liberal Democrat spokesman to move formally. The question is that clause 1 be added to the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye." To the

18:02

Division

18:52

Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Hove and Portslade, Labour)

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amendments 11 to 32, one to eight and 33 to 36 be made. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it.

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The ayes have it. Consideration completed. Third Reading. Now.

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Minister to move Third Reading. Secretary of State.

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Thank you. I beg to move. The House has worked incredibly hard to House has worked incredibly hard to get the bill to where it is today. It is a relief that after so many attempts to get this bill through attempts to get this bill through over such a long period of time and multiple governments now we finally get this piece of legislation across get this piece of legislation across this line. I would like to put on this line. I would like to put on record my thanks to the people who got us to where we are, members from across the House who contributed insincere and passionate ways today insincere and passionate ways today joining the debate for report stage and now Third Reading.

I would like to put on record my sincerest thanks to the right honourable member from Rhondda. The Minister responsible who has been seeing this bill who has been seeing this bill through assiduously, persistently and with passion at all times to and with passion at all times to make sure this bill is out there through Parliament and benefiting the people of Britain. My thanks to him. And also to officials in my department, the Department for Science, Innovation, and Technology. There are certain officials who have been working on this bill since 2022.

Who have put their life and soul into this bill. Often seven times a week. Their dedication to getting this piece of legislation through should be recognised from members right across the House. And it certainly is from me. Thank you very much. I hope the House has noticed we have tabled amendments ourselves to improve the bill right up to the very last moment. By making it an offence to request the creation of deepfake intimate images without consent. And empowering the courts to deprive offenders of images and devices containing them.

We will ensure consistency in our approach to attacking women and girls from this file, demeaning form of -- vile demeaning form of abuse. To conclude in the short time I have, this bill will make life better for working people right across our country. They's -- a stronger economy and I am afraid the time I have I cannot give way because I do want to give the courtesy of allowing the opposition to have their say in the remaining couple of minutes we have.

A stronger economy, better public services and more time to do the things they like with the people they love. I look forward to working with people and honourable members from across the House. To resolve any outstanding issues that may come after this bill passes as quickly as possible. This is the third substantial -- substantive iteration of the bill before us today. It follows two failed attempts by the previous government, the first starting back in July 2022. It is time we got this done.

For far too long other citizens and businesses have paid the price for the failure to deliver data reform. We cannot expect them to put up with it any longer. Today we have an opportunity to finally get that right. Madam Deputy Speaker, the bill we have before us today will remove the brakes that are holding back our

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country. Thank you. The question is the bill be now read 1/3 time. Shadow Secretary of State.

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State. Thank you. May I thank the Secretary of State for allowing time for an opposition response. May I begin by thanking honourable and

18:55

Alan Mak MP (Havant, Conservative)

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begin by thanking honourable and right honourable members across the House for their contributions to this bill over many months and also thank officials in the Department across several governments and officials in Parliament. And on the Conservative benches may I particularly thank my honourable friend, the member for Runnymede and Waverly for his extremely hard work and also thank the entire team on our benches. Particularly the senior researcher Sophie Fawley. The Conservatives left the government with the Data Bill that he will improve Britain's position as a leading tech and enabled economy and society.

In Labour's hands, the government has delivered only confusion and failure. A wide range of amendments have been tabled to labours bill, highlighting key issues that require leadership and agility from the government. The government has failed in each of these areas. On AI and copyright, they let down our content creators. On sex and gender they let down women and girls. In social media safety they let down our children. The last Conservative government turned Britain into a leading tech power and our original bill built on these achievements, labours bill today takes the country backwards and our country deserves so much better.

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If nobody else is rising to speak, the question is the bill be speak, the question is the bill be now read... Order! The question is now read... Order! The question is the bill be now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion, say, As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The

18:57

Adjournment: Havering Borough and Essex devolution

ayes have it. The ayes have it. Motion number three on criminal law.

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Minister to move. I beg to move. The question is as on the Order

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The question is as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

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The ayes have it. I beg to move this House do now adjourn. The question is this House do now

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The question is this House do now adjourn. Andrew Rosindell.

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adjourn. Andrew Rosindell. Thank you. I have proudly represented my hometown of Romford

18:58

Andrew Rosindell MP (Romford, Conservative)

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19:23

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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do understand completely the point he makes about Havering being anchored in Greater London complete. anchored in Greater London complete. But I hope he takes some reassurance the guidance we have sent out, right the guidance we have sent out, right throughout the process has anchored two things I think you touched on in his speech. Firstly the his speech. Firstly the administrative boundaries that are administrative boundaries that are being drawn about efficiency, having a single tier of local government people can hold to account is important.

And also of course it is important. And also of course it is sustainable in the future. But that in no way is intended to cut across the identities people feel and are the identities people feel and are proud of. And no council should try and cut across that historic identity that local areas do feel. The second point I will say is every The second point I will say is every council regardless of their size, regardless of where it is in England should always root itself in local communities and local communities and local neighbourhoods.

The days of councils neighbourhoods. The days of councils being disconnected and removed from local communities is long gone. Actually I think that empowers other councils from being frontline councils from being frontline

**** Possible New Speaker ****

community conveners they are elected to be. The question is this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that adjourn. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". The ayes have

11:00

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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11:00

Prime Minister's Question Time

19:30

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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This debate has concluded

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