Commons Chamber
11:33
11:34
Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)
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Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)
Question number one, Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week, the leader announced that the Courts and Tribunals Bill will return to this House on the 13th of October. I've been clear that my priority is to reduce the Crown Court waiting list and enable victims to have their day in court more quickly. I look forward to working with experts in this House and beyond to deliver that.
11:34
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
To Neil Shastri-Hurst. >> To Neil Shastri-Hurst. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. There are reports that the government is considering tabling an amendment to Courts and Tribunals Bill, whereby in either way, offences, a judge will decide whether a defendant faces a jury or is heard by a single judge sitting alone. The legal profession has quite properly highlighted that this will lead to satellite litigation, with repeated appeals and slow down the legal process. Will the government start to finally listen to the legal profession, or will they carry on and plough on regardless? Yeah.
11:34
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
Well, I would always caution the >> Well, I would always caution the hon. Gentleman around reports when there are things to be said. They'll be said from this Dispatch Box. He will know, though, that Box. He will know, though, that both. I think he would expect that myself as a new Lord Chancellor. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is a new Prime Minister. Of course. Look at every aspect of the Ministry of Justice business to make sure that it's the best for delivering for victims and for the public at large.
So he knows the legislation is coming back, and I look forward to discussing it in its fullness when it does so. Yes.
So he knows the legislation is coming back, and I look forward to discussing it in its fullness when it does so. Yes.
11:35
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Upon >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Upon taking office, the Prime Minister promised to find ways of not reducing access to jury trials. reducing access to jury trials. That's a quote. He said they're a linchpin of a fair society. Now, we know that the Courts and Tribunals know that the Courts and Tribunals Bill will return to the House on the 13th of October, immediately after the recess. Can the Justice Secretary guarantee that the bill will not reduce access to jury trials at all?
11:35
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
Well, again, the hon. Gentleman, the Shadow Secretary seeks to run ahead of the process that's going ahead of the process that's going on at the moment. It is very important that Parliament has the opportunity to consider this really, really important legislation. really important legislation. Exactly in the spirit that he talks about, we are now what, through the Second Reading process of that. I've been in this place nine years I've been in this place nine years now, and I would say that legislation at the beginning very rarely looks like the same at the end.
My offer to him, my indeed, my offer to colleagues across the House is to engage in that conversation. If they have concerns
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and wish to see things changed, let's have that conversation. Nick Timothy. I asked the Justice Secretary to
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I asked the Justice Secretary to rule out reducing access to jury trials, and the House will have noticed that he didn't do that. noticed that he didn't do that. We're not talking about something insignificant. We're talking about an ancient English right, something an ancient English right, something dating back to Magna Carta. Just like with Labour's early release disaster, the new Prime Minister disaster, the new Prime Minister told everybody he didn't like it, wouldn't do it, but never got round to working out what to do.
Instead, the justice Secretary once again has made much of his desire to work together constructively, although I have to say I haven't seen much of it yet in our correspondence. So it yet in our correspondence. So will he publish? Will he publish the full details of the new plan now, or does he still not know what now, or does he still not know what it is?
My offer to him, my indeed, my offer to colleagues across the House is to engage in that conversation. If they have concerns
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and wish to see things changed, let's have that conversation. Nick Timothy. I asked the Justice Secretary to
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I asked the Justice Secretary to rule out reducing access to jury trials, and the House will have noticed that he didn't do that. noticed that he didn't do that. We're not talking about something insignificant. We're talking about an ancient English right, something an ancient English right, something dating back to Magna Carta. Just like with Labour's early release disaster, the new Prime Minister disaster, the new Prime Minister told everybody he didn't like it, wouldn't do it, but never got round to working out what to do.
Instead, the justice Secretary once again has made much of his desire to work together constructively, although I have to say I haven't seen much of it yet in our correspondence. So it yet in our correspondence. So will he publish? Will he publish the full details of the new plan now, or does he still not know what now, or does he still not know what it is?
11:36
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
This is interesting, Mr. Speaker, because the opposition don't know how to deal with either the new Prime Minister or indeed the new government, because when we talk about wanting to improve things in the collective interest of the country, we mean it. Instead, he wants to he rather offers to be my correspondent. Secretary. I don't think that's quite the answer to that. I say, I'm sorry. Sorry.
11:37
Mr Speaker
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Mr Speaker
That's quite serious. And I'm getting a little bit fed up of this continuation of Dispatch Box. Ask a question. At least respect the answer because I expect them when answer because I expect them when you put the question to listen to it. So I expect it both ways. Please. This is becoming a habit and I don't want it to continue. and I don't want it to continue.
11:37
Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)
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Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I reiterate my commitment to him and to the House. If people have interest in this legislation or
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want to discuss it, our door is open. Jess Brown-Fuller the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Lord Chancellor mentioned working with experts in his previous answer. Amnesty international has recently Amnesty international has recently questioned the government's own human rights assessment of the Courts and Tribunals Bill, describing the proposals as a describing the proposals as a dilution of the quality of justice, particularly in relation to efforts to combat racial discrimination. to combat racial discrimination. Mr. speaker, these issues were raised at earlier stages of the bill, but the government batted away those concerns.
The time is now right to change course prior to the return of the bill in October. So can the Secretary of State confirm that these concerns are being heard by the Prime Minister while he considers the future of the Bill, and can he guarantee hon. Members across this House and experts in the sector will have experts in the sector will have adequate time to scrutinise the government's amendments before we're asked to debate it on the we're asked to debate it on the second day back after recess.
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want to discuss it, our door is open. Jess Brown-Fuller the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Lord Chancellor mentioned working with experts in his previous answer. Amnesty international has recently Amnesty international has recently questioned the government's own human rights assessment of the Courts and Tribunals Bill, describing the proposals as a describing the proposals as a dilution of the quality of justice, particularly in relation to efforts to combat racial discrimination. to combat racial discrimination. Mr. speaker, these issues were raised at earlier stages of the bill, but the government batted away those concerns.
The time is now right to change course prior to the return of the bill in October. So can the Secretary of State confirm that these concerns are being heard by the Prime Minister while he considers the future of the Bill, and can he guarantee hon. Members across this House and experts in the sector will have experts in the sector will have adequate time to scrutinise the government's amendments before we're asked to debate it on the we're asked to debate it on the second day back after recess.
11:38
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I mean, I would assure the hon. Lady that we, of course, will consider all evidence submitted by whoever it is and certainly by those experts that I talked about in my in my opening answer, I wouldn't say that I'm afraid that we could quite accept that characterisation as set out in those terms. But what I will say is that, you know, we will look at these things very closely. We will have that interaction through ordinary parliamentary processes and beyond, because I think we have a shared interest in this.
You know, I would caution the House about defending a status quo where we all know because it's in our constituency. Mailbags Mr. Speaker, where our constituents are waiting now for trials that get to 2029 will soon be 2030, that that isn't justice either, and that it behoves us. Yes, to make very important, as my hon. Friend has very, very important changes to the system to help immediate capacity challenges, but that we look at longer term structural changes, too. And as I say, I look forward to working with colleagues on that.
You know, I would caution the House about defending a status quo where we all know because it's in our constituency. Mailbags Mr. Speaker, where our constituents are waiting now for trials that get to 2029 will soon be 2030, that that isn't justice either, and that it behoves us. Yes, to make very important, as my hon. Friend has very, very important changes to the system to help immediate capacity challenges, but that we look at longer term structural changes, too. And as I say, I look forward to working with colleagues on that.
11:39
11:39
Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)
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Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)
Minister Mr. Speaker, we inherited a criminal justice system inherited a criminal justice system in crisis, with challenges in prisons and criminal courts at the risk of collapse. That is why, as risk of collapse. That is why, as an early priority, we launched two wide ranging reviews that led by David Gauke and Sir Brian Leveson, to tackle this crisis holistically. This is a system wide challenge and
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requires urgent action from across the whole criminal justice system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Justice Secretary said just a fortnight ago that we have to build a new criminal justice system, and a new criminal justice system, and I wholeheartedly agree. After the damage done, by a decade and a half of austerity now, nobody knows of austerity now, nobody knows better how far our justice system has fallen than the hard working front line workers desperately front line workers desperately trying to hold it all together, who have watched and warned about this dangerous situation coming down the track for years.
So will the department listen to the leaders of the six national justice trade unions who are calling for a Royal Commission on prisons and the wider criminal justice system.
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requires urgent action from across the whole criminal justice system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Justice Secretary said just a fortnight ago that we have to build a new criminal justice system, and a new criminal justice system, and I wholeheartedly agree. After the damage done, by a decade and a half of austerity now, nobody knows of austerity now, nobody knows better how far our justice system has fallen than the hard working front line workers desperately front line workers desperately trying to hold it all together, who have watched and warned about this dangerous situation coming down the track for years.
So will the department listen to the leaders of the six national justice trade unions who are calling for a Royal Commission on prisons and the wider criminal justice system.
11:40
Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)
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Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)
Well, my hon. Friend is absolutely right that our workforce, whether it's powering our prisons, whether it's powering our prisons, our probation service or indeed our court service, is the backbone of delivering for citizens in this country. And I know that myself and colleagues routinely engage with our trade unions who are vital stakeholders in this matter. But we're not waiting for a royal commission. The state of our justice system requires action now. justice system requires action now. That is why the government is making record investment in sitting days, in court, in building new days, in court, in building new prisons and indeed in the workforce itself.
11:41
Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)
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Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)
Liz Saville-Roberts I speak as the chair of the new justice unions, APPG, which he is from six trade unions representing workers across prisons, probation, policing and the courts. Our first action last week was to write to the Prime Minister and the Justice Secretary to highlight a joint statement by six justice trade unions calling for a royal commission. Workers on the front lines see that the current piecemeal approach of narrow, standalone reviews can, at best, only tackle individual symptoms, while the disease and its symptoms, while the disease and its causes remain untreated.
Surely, she agrees that end to end reform is now essential, and that a royal commission is key to enabling this?
Surely, she agrees that end to end reform is now essential, and that a royal commission is key to enabling this?
11:41
Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)
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Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)
Well, as she's just heard me said, what we need is action and investment in our workforce. Now that's about fair pay. It's also about ensuring that our workforce, whether in prisons or in courts, have the tools to do the job that they were trained to do and want to do properly. That's why we are empowering them with digital tools. It's why we provided the sitting days to hear the cases that need to days to hear the cases that need to be processed through our courts.
We do not need a royal commission to tell us what's needed. What we need tell us what's needed. What we need is action right now.
We do not need a royal commission to tell us what's needed. What we need tell us what's needed. What we need is action right now.
11:42
11:42
Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)
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Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman, himself a right hon. Gentleman, himself a former prisons Minister and highly regarded former Shadow Secretary of State, has raised this issue assiduously on behalf of his constituents. The project to replace a water main serving Onley Park Estate is progressing through design and development, with a projected program expected in November.
11:42
Catherine McKinnell MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
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Catherine McKinnell MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
I'm grateful to the Minister and she will know that Onley Park is is still owned by the Ministry of Justice, and I welcome the funding. But these residents have been waiting years and frankly, they are waiting years and frankly, they are really worried. We still not got a start date. The clarity around backdated bills and it's affecting house sales now. So would she agree to meet with me and representatives of the parish council so we can bring some clarity and a resolution for the residents of Onley Park?
11:43
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
Yes. >> Yes. >> I absolutely recognise the hon. Gentleman's concerns. The. As I said, the projected program should said, the projected program should be with him by November. He will appreciate. There are important value for money considerations as value for money considerations as well as making sure we get this project right, and it is expected to be a year long once it commences and completed by January 2027. But if he still requires a meeting, of course I'd be happy to facilitate this.
11:43
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
Andrew Murrison number four, Mr. Speaker. government has increased foreign national offenders returns by 41%, with more than 3000 foreign national offenders removed directly national offenders removed directly from prison last year through the early removal scheme. From next year, new powers will enable most determinate sentence foreign determinate sentence foreign national offenders to be deported immediately after sentencing, and I have established a cross-government task force with the Home Office and the Foreign Office to maximise removals.
11:43
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
Andrew Murrison Pillai, the then mayor of Manchester, said nothing mayor of Manchester, said nothing was off the table and that he would explore all possible options to explore all possible options to deport child rapists. Shabir Ahmed to Pakistan where's the necessary to Pakistan where's the necessary draft legislation to amend the 1971 Immigration Act? Where's the credible threat to Pakistan to turn off visas, and where's the credible threat to Pakistan to stop money and other assistance to Pakistan if it doesn't cooperate?
11:44
Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)
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Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)
Well, the right hon. Gentleman may well have seen also in July, may well have seen also in July, myself from this Dispatch Box set out the government's approach in this regard. He will know, and I think it is important to reiterate think it is important to reiterate this the challenges in the 71 act are not merely technical, and setting them aside is not merely a technical answer. It's right that technical answer. It's right that we do that properly, and we will also know that we've got ongoing negotiations and discussions with lots of countries around the world with regards to foreign offenders, that we don't provide running commentary on them.
11:44
Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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Rt Hon Alex Norris MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
I welcome the new chair, the Select Committee. >> Catherine Atkinson thank you, Mr. Speaker. The government's progress on deporting foreign national offenders is welcome, but how will the Minister work with the Home Office to ensure that receiving countries are informed of the convictions of offenders, particularly those involving violence, sexual offending or exploitation, so that they have the
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information that they need to keep their public safe? I'm grateful for that question.
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I'm grateful for that question. I congratulate my hon. Friend, I have a double degree of anxiety. She, of course, is a former Ministry of Justice Minister will Ministry of Justice Minister will know very well of what she speaks, but also as a Derby MP, it creates a Derby Nottingham rivalry across a Derby Nottingham rivalry across the Select Committee room that I have a degree of trepidation about, but I know how excellently she will do that job. I've known her well and she is brilliant.
She makes a very important question here. You know, we have made significant strides in the removal of foreign offenders from this country, of which we make no apology for. We want to go further and again, make no apology for that either. But to do that well and in a way that endures over the years, we need to work as well as possible with receiving countries. So we want them to have the best information as early as possible. That's why as early as possible. That's why we're working with the Home Office and the Foreign Office in that venture, so that we can safely and securely remove people in a way securely remove people in a way that we can keep doing over the years ahead.
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information that they need to keep their public safe? I'm grateful for that question.
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I'm grateful for that question. I congratulate my hon. Friend, I have a double degree of anxiety. She, of course, is a former Ministry of Justice Minister will Ministry of Justice Minister will know very well of what she speaks, but also as a Derby MP, it creates a Derby Nottingham rivalry across a Derby Nottingham rivalry across the Select Committee room that I have a degree of trepidation about, but I know how excellently she will do that job. I've known her well and she is brilliant.
She makes a very important question here. You know, we have made significant strides in the removal of foreign offenders from this country, of which we make no apology for. We want to go further and again, make no apology for that either. But to do that well and in a way that endures over the years, we need to work as well as possible with receiving countries. So we want them to have the best information as early as possible. That's why as early as possible. That's why we're working with the Home Office and the Foreign Office in that venture, so that we can safely and securely remove people in a way securely remove people in a way that we can keep doing over the years ahead.
11:46
Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)
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Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)
The recruitment and retention of probation staff is a high priority for me and for the government. for me and for the government. We're absolutely committed to recruiting and retaining our brilliant and dedicated probation workforce so that they can supervise and manage offenders in the community and keep the public safe.
11:46
Catherine McKinnell MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
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Catherine McKinnell MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
Perran Moon Mr. Speaker, the probation service is suffering from probation service is suffering from thousands of vacancies and a pretty appalling retention rate. The extra 700 million announced for the probation services for this government from this government is welcome. But does the Minister accept that some of this needs to support probation service salaries, which have been massively eroded after a decade and a half of pay