House of Commons

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Wednesday 26 October 2011

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock

Prayers

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Business Before Questions

London Local Authorities Bill [Lords]

Motion made, That the Bill be now considered.

[Hon. Members]

Object.

[Mr Speaker]

I was about to say, “The Question is that the Bill be now considered.” Objection taken. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is always quick off the mark.

Bill to be considered on Wednesday 2 November.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

1. What recent assessment he has made of the humanitarian situation in central America; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Stephen O'Brien)]

First, on behalf all right hon. and hon. Members, may I express our sympathy, concern and deep condolences to the people of central America who are affected by the floods, especially those who have lost loved ones and their homes? The hon. Lady will have noted the statements made on 14 and 20 October by the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne). We have made an assessment of need, and currently we judge that the Governments and national relief agencies of those countries, supported by neighbouring countries such as the United States, and agencies such as the United Nations and International Committee of the Red Cross, are responding well and providing sufficient essential humanitarian aid.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I appreciate that the Department for International Development is not involved in central America, but it is the best agency in the world for delivering disaster relief, as has been shown in places such as Pakistan. May I therefore urge the Minister to keep a close eye on the situation? Will he be ready to respond if our services—not just funding, but expertise—are called on?

[Mr O'Brien]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for noting the technical expertise of the UK response and the Department. Of course, with official advice, we are keeping very close track of the situation, and we will take the necessary steps as called upon. However, our attribution through the multilateral agencies that we fund is clearly playing its part. Therefore, the UK taxpayer is indeed supporting the relief effort in that part of the world.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

May I thank the Secretary of State for his excellent recent meeting with central American ambassadors, including the high commissioner of Belize? Will the Minister confirm that the Government will work more closely with the countries of central America—an important part of the world with which we have a lot in common, and with which we should co-operate more closely?

[Mr O'Brien]

I am delighted to note that excellent meeting—the Secretary of State found it extremely enjoyable and helpful. Those many nations and our country are working to strengthen and develop our relationships, particularly on climate change and trade.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The people of the UK are very generous, but it is estimated that some 30% of humanitarian aid is removed at the harbour at which it arrives. Will the Minister give an assurance that he will have discussions with the countries that receive humanitarian aid to ensure that all of it gets to the people for whom it is intended?

[Mr O'Brien]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about ensuring that the money reaches the destination and serves the purpose for which it is intended. That is absolutely central to the redirection of the Department for International Development’s aid effort in the past year. We are ensuring that we align every effort to results, to ensure that the money reaches the purposes intended.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

2. What steps his Department is taking to meet the consequences for developing countries of a growing world population.

[The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

Britain is extending to at least 10 million more couples the availability of contraception, so that women can choose whether and when they have children. We are also boosting programmes in health and education with a particular focus on girls and women.

[Richard Ottaway]

The world’s population will go past 7 billion this week, with profound effect. We have millions living in poverty, shortages of food and water and inadequate health provision. Does the Secretary of State agree that one root cause of that is the unmet demand for contraception from some 200 million women living in sub-Saharan Africa?

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend, who knows a good deal about this matter, is absolutely right. Indeed, I have been reading a pamphlet that he published—within the past two days, I believe—entitled “Sex, Ideology and Religion”, which is a treatise on population. He refers to the 215 million women who want, but have no access to, contraception. The Government are directly seeking to tackle that, not least in respect of the extra 10 million women. That is a good start, but we will do more over the next four years.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

What steps is the Secretary of State taking to help women to enforce their legal rights to a minimum age for marriage, and to property and succession, which are clearly important to ensuring that women have a proper economic entitlement in their countries and to supporting planned families?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Lady is right to mention early marriage, which we are seeking to tackle in particular. We have conducted a pilot study with the Nike Foundation, with which we work closely, on preventing early marriage in the Amhara part of Ethiopia. The results of that pilot are excellent, and I can assure her that we are including in all our programmes, as a fundamental pillar of our work with girls and women, the point that she accurately made about stopping early marriage.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

The Secretary of State is right to stress the rights of women to choose when to have children and how many to have, but does he also agree that the evidence is that if we can promote sustainable development the necessity for large families diminishes and population pressures tend to reduce, and that that ought to be at the heart of the Government’s objectives in partnership with our development partners?

[Mr Mitchell]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. A classic example is the work that the Government are doing and the priority that we accord to getting girls into school. We know that girls who are educated get married later and have fewer children. That is a good example of what he is saying.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Barry Sheerman. He is not here.

[Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of budget support aid provided to Uganda.

[The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

There is a narrow role for general budget support in Uganda, but I am reducing its level by 80% over the next four years.

[Mr Carswell]

Is there not a danger that budget support paid to the Ugandan Government helps to make them accountable to British officials, when we should be trying to make them more accountable to their own people?

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend, who knows a good deal about Uganda, is correct to say that that is a danger, which is why the Government have made it clear that wherever we use general budget support, we will always ensure that up to 5% of the money is spent on enabling civil society to hold its own Government and Executive to account.

[Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)]

What steps is the Secretary of State taking to provide support and aid to the 2 million people forced from their homes by the terrible conflict in Uganda?

[Mr Mitchell]

First, I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position. He has emerged from six and a half years in the Whips Office, so it is a relief for everyone to hear that he can still speak.

The hon. Gentleman rightly makes it clear that the importance of tackling conflict should be at the heart of development policy. Of all the 28 countries with which we have a bilateral programme, about three quarters are directly engaged in or have recently come out of conflict. That is an important aspect of everything that we do.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

5. What steps his Department is taking to assist countries in the Caribbean to develop greener economies.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr Alan Duncan)]

We are supporting the Caribbean to develop greener economies both bilaterally and through multilaterals. That support includes the development of renewable energy, such as bioethanol from banana waste in St Lucia, developing and implementing a low-carbon growth strategy in Guyana, and helping Anguilla implement a 10-year plan for achieving carbon neutrality.

[Dr Poulter]

The Minister will be aware that at the Copenhagen summit there was discussion about funds being made available to islands such as those in the Caribbean, which are particularly susceptible to climate change, in order to combat the challenges that they face. Will he update the House on discussions his Department has had with those in the Caribbean, and other small islands, on supporting them in that respect?

[Mr Duncan]

Negotiations on designing the green climate fund instrument are not due to be concluded until the UN framework convention on climate change conference in Durban this December. The proposal that will be submitted to the conference would make resources for adaptation and mitigation available for all developing countries, including those in the Caribbean, and hence should also include other small island developing states.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

As well as prioritising the need for developing greener economies in the Caribbean and other islands ahead of the Durban conference, what are the Government doing—I want to reiterate this point—to provide international leadership to ensure that the commitment made in Copenhagen to raise $100 billion per year by 2020 is met by the international community, so that, as has been said, the most vulnerable countries get the support that they need for adaptation and mitigation?

[Mr Duncan]

I can assure the House, and the hon. Lady, that climate change is one of the three pillars of our development policy in the Caribbean. The UK is working bilaterally in the overseas territories, as well as regionally across the Caribbean with institutions such as the Caribbean Community Climate Change Centre and the Caribbean Development Bank, as well as other donors, to promote green economies in the Caribbean and address the broader challenges of climate change.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

6. What plans he has to visit Palestine to assess the humanitarian situation.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr Alan Duncan)]

I visited the west bank in July and saw at first hand the difficulties faced by Palestinians, particularly in Area C. The Secretary of State is keen to visit when his schedule permits.

[Michael Connarty]

I am grateful for that positive response from the Minister. I am sure that, like me, he reads the reports of the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs occupied Palestinian territory, which I believe every Member should look at regularly. Some 90% of the water in the aquifer in Gaza is undrinkable, while up to 80 million litres of raw or partly treated sewage is going into the sea, and the Israeli authorities have just bulldozed six wells on the west bank. Surely nothing can be more pressing than a man-made humanitarian disaster on this scale. We must take positive action, and the Secretary of State must go and see it for himself.

[Mr Duncan]

Notwithstanding the difficulties of getting into Gaza, we have a broad measure of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman has said. We are deeply concerned about the impact of restrictions on Palestinians living in Area C and Gaza. Access to water and land is restricted, food insecurity is high, and 18% of Palestinians in the west bank are living below the poverty line.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

The minority Bedouin population of Israel and the Palestinian territories is particularly vulnerable to the conflicts over water, land use and boundaries in that part of the world. Will Ministers raise their plight with the Israeli and Palestinian authorities as an urgent humanitarian priority?

[Mr Duncan]

We do that regularly, and—in answer both to that question and the previous question—we also reiterate that Palestinians have access to only 20% of west bank water resources, which means that Palestinians have the lowest access to fresh water in the region. As the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) said, 90% of drinking water in Gaza does not meet international standards. We continue to call on Israel to cease actions that prevent Palestinians from gaining access to the clean drinking water to which we are all entitled.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the international development outcomes of the UN General Assembly; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

Our focus at the United Nations General Assembly was threefold: maintaining momentum on the girls and women agenda; driving forward the lessons of the Government’s humanitarian and emergency response review; and ensuring that people focus on achieving the millennium development goals by 2015. Progress is being made in each area.

[Nick de Bois]

I thank the Minister for that answer. A year on from the Secretary-General’s Every Woman, Every Child initiative, launched at last year’s General Assembly, what progress is the UK making on the commitment to save the lives of 50,000 women and 250,000 newborns?

[Mr Mitchell]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. We now publish—in the bilateral aid review and the multilateral aid review—precisely who we will support to achieve those objectives and how we will do it. Over the coming years we will be able to demonstrate that we are going further than we set out in the bilateral aid review, and the results that we achieve in all these areas—particularly in saving lives and advancing contraception—point to extremely good progress.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

What priority is the Secretary of State giving to improving food security and agricultural markets and, in particular, the role of women marginal farmers?

[Mr Mitchell]

This is a particular priority for the Government, not least in the horn of Africa, where we have seen severe food stress and food insecurity, especially in Somalia. It is also likely to be a focus next year, as we build on the progress being made through, for example, our work with the World Food Programme in Karamoja, where food insecurity and food aid are being replaced by progress and food security.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

8. What steps he is taking to support reconstruction in Somalia.

[The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

Reconstruction in much of Somalia remains difficult because of the ongoing conflict. My primary concern is to help to save the lives of the 750,000 people, mostly women and children, who are facing starvation and disease.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the recent interception of two young men from Cardiff—one from my constituency, the other from that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael)—shows that it is in our national interest to ensure that we are engaged in reconstruction in Somalia? Will he commit to sustaining the Government’s support for the response in Somalia through 2012, and urge our Disasters Emergency Committee partners and others to do the same?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The whole of our development budget is spent in Britain’s national interest, and a large chunk of it goes to support our own security and prosperity here at home. Somalia is one of the most dysfunctional countries in the world. It is a classic example of a failed state where, because we were unable to tackle the causes of deep poverty, we are now dealing with the symptoms of both poverty and deep insecurity.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

9. What steps his Department is taking to promote fair trade projects in developing countries.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

12. What steps his Department is taking to promote fair trade projects in developing countries.

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr Alan Duncan)]

DFID believes that people can never escape poverty without the opportunity to produce and trade freely. By promoting open markets and a strong framework for international trade, we are helping to support fair market access for poor people. We aim to double the number of fair trade certified producers to 2.2 million by the end of 2013, and to improve working conditions in global supply chains.

[Nic Dakin]

I thank the Minister for his response. What steps is he taking to ensure that the Doha round of talks is completed and that a fair deal on trade will be achieved for developing countries?

[Mr Duncan]

That is an essential objective for the entire Department. International progress towards the conclusion that we would like to see is proving somewhat difficult, but we will continue our great effort to try to secure an improved trading environment for the world.

[Steve Rotheram]

What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that fair trade best practice is reflected in the Government’s public procurement policy?

[Mr Duncan]

We optimise as far as possible everything that DFID and the Government buy, so that the fair trade label appears wherever it possibly can within government. That remains our objective in all that we do.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

We do indeed need more fair trade projects in developing countries, but that also relies on people buying more fair trade products here. Will the Minister commend and wish well the campaign to make Yorkshire and the Humber the first UK fair trade region?

[Mr Duncan]

We strongly support objectives of that sort. There are many towns across the country that have secured fair trade status. The Department and I—and, I hope, all of us—are enthusiastic supporters of fair trade, which is not just a notion but a sensible and practical approach to supply chains that ensures that some of the poorest people in the world can benefit from their hard work.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

10. What his most recent assessment is of the humanitarian situation in Somalia.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien)]

Somalia remains in desperate crisis, with 4 million people affected and 750,000 at risk of starvation. Life-saving aid is getting through, but insecurity, access constraints and displacement are undermining effective delivery. The scale of need means that continued support is required through 2012.

[David Rutley]

Sadly, many people in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya are suffering from a terrible drought, although an official declaration of famine has been avoided. Will my hon. Friend tell the House what lessons can be learned from this about the importance of long-term investment in food security?

[Mr O’Brien]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In addition to relieving the humanitarian crisis in Somalia, we must also recognise that resilience and the efforts to address food security as a strategic priority in the medium to long term underpin all our efforts, even in the humanitarian response, in Kenya and Uganda, where famine has not been declared. We have just heard from the Secretary of State about the efforts being made in Uganda.

[Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

We are supporting the national transitional council’s stabilisation work in Libya, which we have helped to plan since the beginning of the conflict. We are heavily engaged in helping to save lives in the horn of Africa, and we are boosting development in the Commonwealth ahead of discussions at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Australia later this week.

[Mr Campbell]

I understand that the Secretary of State will meet the President of Colombia in a few weeks’ time. Will he raise the issue of the assassinations and the killings? This year we have already seen 56 people killed for being human rights defenders. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the President that the Arab spring might knock on his door one day?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman is right to underline the importance of promoting human rights wherever we can. When I have discussions with the President of Colombia, I will certainly take on board the hon. Gentleman’s point. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place. The House will want to hear Mrs Helen Grant.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

T4. What action is the Secretary of State taking to tackle forced marriage and early marriage in the developing world?

[Mr Mitchell]

As I mentioned to the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), we are supporting specific pilot studies to try to reduce the awful levels of early marriage, not least in Amhara in Ethiopia, where we have secured extraordinarily good results. This is a key pillar of the activity that we support in all our programmes.

[Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab)]

May I begin by paying tribute to the work of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), my predecessor in the role of Opposition spokesperson on International Development? I can tell the Secretary of State that we will continue to support the Government where we agree on the 0.7% commitment and the importance of demonstrating aid effectiveness, but we will also challenge them where we think they are wrong.

What measures will the UK propose at next week’s G20 summit to ensure that there is a renewed push by the world’s leaders to achieve the millennium development goals? More specifically, now that the Department for International Development has launched its nutrition strategy, will the UK use the summit to urge other G20 members to endorse the Scale up Nutrition movement?

[Mr Mitchell]

May I first welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position? I look forward to working with him as appropriate. He is quite right to identify the G20 summit next week as a key point where we can boost the interests of the developing world. He specifically mentioned nutrition, which is clearly very important, but the whole agenda for economic growth, which the G20 will address, is one that we should all support.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

T5. We are exceptionally lucky to have a Secretary of State who is so passionate about relieving poverty in developing countries—but does he agree that what we want is not more and more taxpayers’ money going in aid, but more and more trade? What can he do to open the European Union’s markets to developing countries?

[Mr Mitchell]

I think that I thank my hon. Friend for his first remark. He is right to point out that aid is a means to an end and not an end in itself. That is why the coalition Government have specifically said that wealth creation, entrepreneurialism, enterprise and economic growth should be right at the top of this agenda.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

T2. Later this week the International Development Committee releases its report on the Government’s decision to withdraw bilateral aid from Burundi. Although I cannot comment on the report’s content, the evidence offered by DFID to the Select Committee to support that decision was heavily redacted. Will the Secretary of State explain how the decision to redact squares with the UK aid transparency guarantee?

[Mr Mitchell]

As I explained to the hon. Gentleman in the Select Committee, we release as much information as we possibly can in my Department, and we publish all expenditure above £500. I know that the Committee is concerned about the closure of the Burundi programme, but Britain is doing a huge amount for the country through its multilateral agenda. There are many other ways apart from having a country-to-country footprint to support development in Burundi, and we must make tough decisions in the interests of the British taxpayer as well.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

T7. What consideration has my right hon. Friend given to issuing food vouchers rather than food aid in order to promote free enterprise and choice in the developing world?

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This agenda has been championed effectively, not least by Save the Children, and it is one reason why we prioritise social protection rather than food aid. The aim of all these policies is to try to get people off food aid into much greater food security—as seen, for example, in the project between Britain and the World Food Programme, which I talked about earlier.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

T3. In the past decade 4 million people have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and countless women and girls have been victims of sexual violence. What are the Government doing to ensure that political parties in the DRC refrain from violence during the forthcoming elections?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the importance of focusing on the DRC, because there will never be a peaceful Africa without a peaceful DRC. Britain is giving strong support to the democratic process. We have been responsible for the registering of nearly 30 million people in the run-up to the November elections, and we strongly support the United Nations force in the DRC—MONUSCO—which has a chapter VII mandate and is therefore able to protect citizens robustly, especially the women to whom the hon. Gentleman has referred.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

T9. What evidence can the Secretary of State give that our Government’s global leadership in increasing aid spending is encouraging other nations to adopt similar increases?

[Mr Mitchell]

Over the last year there has been an increase in many countries’ support for development, which is quite right and in accordance with the commitments that they have given. Britain has been in the lead in that regard. All our spending is in our national interest, and large amounts of it support our security, and indeed our future prosperity.

The Prime Minister was asked—

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 26 October.

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

This morning—[Interruption.] At least they do not have to do it in French.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This afternoon I shall travel to Brussels for further talks about the eurozone.

[Luciana Berger]

Yesterday it was reported that the Prime Minister had compared the families of those who had died at Hillsborough to

“a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there”,

and had complained that he was not being given enough credit for the release of all the Government documents relating to the tragedy. Will he take this opportunity to apologise to the relatives and friends of the 96 Hillsborough victims for those grossly offensive comments?

[The Prime Minister]

What I would say to all the victims and their families is that it is this Government who have done the right thing by opening up the Cabinet papers and trying to help those people to find the closure that they seek.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Given that Chancellor Merkel has called formally on the European Commission to produce treaty texts to amend the European treaties, does my right hon. Friend agree with the following statements

“that the accumulated burden of policies, competences, tasks and budgets in the European Union has become too great…that locating ill-justifed powers at EU level can undermine democratic accountability; that the time has therefore come to identify those areas in which EU action is neither logical, justifiable or workable”?

Does he share my surprise that those words were written by the Deputy Prime Minister more than 10 years ago?

[The Prime Minister]

I have read that pamphlet too, and what it says is good, sound common sense. We do not know exactly when treaty change will be proposed and how great that treaty change will be, but I am absolutely clear, and the coalition is clear, about the fact that there will be opportunities to advance our national interest, and it is on those opportunities that we should focus.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

Does the Prime Minister agree that, at today’s European summit, we need not just the sorting out of their problems by Greece and Italy and the proper recapitalisation of Europe’s banks, but an agenda to help Europe, and indeed Britain, to grow?

[The Prime Minister]

What it will be absolutely necessary to do this evening is deal with the key elements of the eurozone crisis, which is acting as a drag anchor on recoveries in many other countries, including our own. That will require decisive action to deal with the Greek situation and a proper recapitalisation of the banks, which has not happened across Europe to date—and the stress tests that have been carried out have not had credibility—but, above all, it will require the construction of the firewall of the European fund to prevent contagion elsewhere. That is the most important thing. The right hon. Gentleman is right to suggest that a wider growth strategy across Europe is required. That was debated on Sunday, and all the Commission’s proposals—on completing the services directive, completing the single market, liberalising energy policy and cutting regulation—could have been written right here in London.

[Edward Miliband]

The point I would emphasise to the Prime Minister is that those are long-term measures, but we also need immediate action for growth, and that needs to happen not just at European meetings, but at the G20 next week.

We know that the Prime Minister’s real focus has, unfortunately, not been on sorting out the eurozone crisis; it has been on sorting out the problems on his own side. He said on Monday that his priority is to repatriate powers from Europe: which powers, and when?

[The Prime Minister]

One serious question, then straight on to the politics; how absolutely typical!

Let me make this point to the right hon. Gentleman: the idea that we could go into the meeting this evening about the future of Europe arguing that Britain should add an extra £100 billion to its deficit is a complete and utter joke.

Let me answer the question about our relationship with Europe very directly. The coalition agreement talks about rebalancing power between Britain and Europe. This coalition has already achieved bringing back one power: the bail-out power that the right hon. Gentleman’s Government gave away.

[Edward Miliband]

The Prime Minister said in this House on Monday:

“I remain firmly committed to…bringing back more powers from Brussels”—[Official Report, 24 October 2011; Vol. 534, c. 27.]

but yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister was asked about his plan and he said:

“It won’t work, it will be condemned to failure.”

So one day we have the Prime Minister saying yes to repatriation, and 24 hours later the Deputy Prime Minister says no. On this crucial question, who speaks for the Government?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me quote what the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday. He said that there is a perfectly good case for

“rebalancing the responsibilities between the EU and its member states.”

What a contrast with what the leader of the Labour party said. Jon Sopel asked:

“Let me ask this single question. Yes or no answer. Has Brussels got too much power? ”

The right hon. Gentleman replied:

“I don’t think it has too much power.”

So the situation is very plain: there is a group of people on this side of the House who want some rebalancing, a group of people who want a lot of rebalancing, and a complete mug who wants no rebalancing at all.

[Edward Miliband]

Why does the Prime Minister not come clean about the split between himself and the Deputy Prime Minister? This is what the Deputy Prime Minister was asked:

“Is David Cameron wrong to promise at some point the idea of another treaty that might bring powers back?”

He said this:

“This Government, of which I’m a Deputy Prime Minister, is not going to launch some sort of dawn raid, some smash and grab raid on Brussels. It won’t work, it will be condemned to failure.”

So which is it: who speaks for the Government? It is no wonder the Prime Minister’s Back Benchers are saying there is no clarity in the Government’s position, and the secretary of the 1922 committee said the Government’s “position is politically unsustainable.” Is it the Prime Minister’s position to get out of the social chapter: yes or no?

[The Prime Minister]

It is this coalition that has worked together to get us out of the bail-out fund—to get us out of the Greek bail-out—and to deliver this year a freeze in the European budget. That is what this coalition has achieved. The split that we have is between the right hon. Gentleman and reality, and we have the greatest proof of that. I talked to the House about this on Monday, but it is so good that I have got to do so again. When he was asked if he wanted to join the euro, he said:

“It depends how long I’m prime minister for.”

That is the split: it is between the Labour party and reality.

[Edward Miliband]

The Prime Minister will be going to the Council in December to negotiate on behalf of Britain, and treaty change may be on the agenda. I ask him the question again. His Education Secretary said on the radio yesterday morning:

“I think we should take back powers over employment law”,

but his Deputy Prime Minister disagrees. What is the Prime Minister’s position?

[The Prime Minister]

I tell you what would be on the agenda if the right hon. Gentleman was going to the meeting in Brussels tonight. We would not be discussing Italy. We would not be discussing Greece. It would be Britain handing out the begging bowl asking for a bail-out. We know that he now wants to join the euro. The other thing that Labour Members want to do is leave the International Monetary Fund. They had the opportunity in this Parliament to vote for an increase in IMF funds, which was agreed at the London Council by their own Government—they rejected that. So we now have the extraordinary situation where they want to join the euro and leave the IMF. It is not France they want to be like—it is Monaco.

[Edward Miliband]

It is no wonder the Prime Minister had a problem on Monday, because the truth is that he led his Back Benchers on, making a promise that he knows he cannot keep and that is ruled out by the coalition agreement. We have a Prime Minister who cannot speak for his Government. On the day of the eurozone crisis, we have a Prime Minister who has spent the last week pleading with his Back Benchers, not leading for Britain in Europe.

[The Prime Minister]

I might have had a problem on Monday, but I think the right hon. Gentleman has got a problem on Wednesday. The truth is that if he went to that meeting tonight, his message to Berlusconi would be, “Ignore the markets, just carry on spending” and his message to the rest of Europe would be that Labour thinks that you should spend another £100 billion adding to our deficit—after they had finished laughing there would be no time for the rest of the meeting. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Members should calm down and listen to Sir Peter Tapsell.

[Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

“Pas trop de zèle” was Talleyrand’s advice to Leaders of the Opposition, which meant that he thought that they should not exist in a permanent state of hysteria.

[The Prime Minister]

As ever, nothing but wisdom from my right hon. Friend.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Q2. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether any more projects have been awarded investment by the regional growth fund? Does the tally still stand at just two businesses helped by his flagship policy?

[The Prime Minister]

I am afraid to say that the hon. Lady is completely wrong. There are about 40 projects that have been green-lit for funding, and this is completely on schedule. Fifty bids were successful in round one, receiving a conditional allocation of £450 million to deliver 27,000 new or safeguarded jobs, with up to 100,000 jobs in supply chains. Instead of carping she should be welcoming that.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

Q3. My constituency was recently pleased to welcome Mary Portas as part of her review of Britain’s high streets. Does the Prime Minister agree that Rugby’s positive approach to new housing, which will create new customers for the high street, is an effective way of supporting town centres?

[The Prime Minister]

I am delighted that Mary Portas has made it to Rugby, and I agree with what my hon. Friend said. We do need to build more houses in our country and we do need to reform the planning system, but we want to do it in a way that gives more control to local people, so that we can actually make sure that we have thriving high streets in the future.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

The whole town of Cumnock, in my constituency, is in a state of shock following the very brutal murder last weekend of a very popular local man, Stuart Walker. Will the Prime Minister join me in sending condolences to Stuart’s family and, amid much unhelpful speculation about the motivation for this murder, will he join me in calling on local people who have any information to come forward to the police to help them with their inquiries?

[The Prime Minister]

I certainly join the hon. Lady in sending condolences to her constituent’s family, and what she says is absolutely right. It was once said that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police cannot solve crimes without the help of the public and I hope that everyone will co-operate in the best way they can.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

Q4. My 14-year-old constituent Lillian Groves was killed outside her home by a driver who was under the influence of drugs. He was sentenced to just eight months in jail and was released after four months. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet Lillian’s family to hear their case for “Lillian’s law”, a package of measures to ensure that in future we take the menace of drug-driving as seriously as we currently take drink-driving?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that my hon. Friend speaks for the whole House when he says that we really have to make sure that we start treating drug-driving as seriously as drink-driving. This issue has been raised repeatedly, but not enough has been done. One of the things that we are doing is making sure that the police are able to test for drug-driving and making that drug-testing equipment available. As we test that and make sure that it works properly, we can look at strengthening things still further, and I am very happy to do as he says.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

It was reported over a week ago that the Bank of England had reprimanded one commercial bank, and there may be others, that tried to manipulate the gilts market to exploit quantitative easing. Could the Prime Minister ask for a report on this matter and, if it is true, will he explain to the bankers that we will use the full force of the law against them if they try to rip off the taxpayer?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. It is very important to send a message to all people in financial services that there is not something called white collar crime that is less serious than other crime. Crime is crime and it should be investigated and prosecuted with the full force of the law.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

Q5. Proposals before the House next week will see cuts to legal aid funding for advice services, which in the case of Wiltshire citizens advice bureau amounts to £250,000 a year. I welcome the £20 million stop-gap the Government have found to replace this funding next year, but will the Prime Minister ensure that the Government put in place lasting funding arrangements to sustain these services on which so many people rely? [Interruption.]

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is no good people shouting this down; every party in the House has accepted the need to reform legal aid. [Interruption.] You say you have not but you have accepted it. The figures are very clear: we spend £39 per head in this country on legal aid compared with £18 per head in New Zealand, which has a similar legal system, and in Spain and France the spending is as low as £5 per head. As my hon. Friend has said, we are putting in the £20 million additional funding for not-for-profit organisations and we have also rightly praised the local councils that have gone on funding citizens advice bureaux. I shall certainly look at what he says because that very important organisation does vital work for all our constituents.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

I am sure the Prime Minister will join me in congratulating Sheffield university’s advanced manufacturing research centre, which celebrated its 10th anniversary yesterday and today with a series of events at Westminster, organised in partnership with Boeing and Rolls-Royce. Will he also join me and the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills in endorsing the aim of growing our manufacturing gross domestic product from its current 12.5% to nearer the 20% enjoyed by most of our competitors, and will he commit the Government to work with—

[Mr Speaker]

That is enough. We have got the drift.

[The Prime Minister]

I very much agree with what the hon. Gentleman says and I am pleased to note that the Deputy Prime Minister hosted Sheffield university at No. 10 Downing street to celebrate its success. I think we are seeing some positive signs of rebalancing in our economy. Recently I was at the big investment that BP is making in the North sea, as well as at the opening of the new Airbus factory in Broughton in Wales. If one looks across our auto industry, whether it is Nissan, Toyota or Jaguar Land Rover, one sees that all those companies are expanding and bringing more of their production and supply chains onshore. There is a huge amount more to do, but we have to accept that we start from a low base as, sadly, manufacturing production has declined so much in the past decade.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

Q6. Will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming the nearly £1 million that has been received in Redditch for the pupil premium? Will he persuade the Secretary of State for Education to push for a national funding formula as soon as possible?

[The Prime Minister]

Discussions about a national funding formula are ongoing. It is a difficult issue to resolve because of the historical patterns of differences of funding around the country. I think the pupil premium is a major step forward; it will be up to £2.6 billion by the end of this Parliament. The Institute for Fiscal Studies report says that we have made spending on education much more progressive by the action we have taken. We have taken difficult decisions but at the heart of that was a decision to protect the schools budget and per-pupil funding and, on top of that, to add the pupil premium to make sure that we are looking after the less well-off in our country.

[Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)]

Q7. Last month, a leaked Downing street report said, “We know from a range of polls that women are significantly more negative about the Government than men.”Why does the Prime Minister think that is?

[The Prime Minister]

When you are making difficult spending decisions and have a difficult economic situation, and household budgets are under huge pressure from things like petrol prices, food prices and inflation, clearly, that impacts women. The Government want to do everything they can to help women and that is why we have lifted 1 million people out of tax, the majority of whom are women, and that is why we are putting much more money and time into free nursery education for two, three and four-year-olds. That is also why, for the first time, we have agreed that women working fewer than 16 hours a week will get child care. And we do not just care about this issue at home: because of what we are doing through international aid, we will be saving more than 50,000 women in childbirth around the world.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Infrastructure Planning Commission has made one decision—to grant planning permission for the giant American waste company Covanta to build a 600,000 tonne incinerator in Mid Bedfordshire. Thousands of people in Bedfordshire responded to the consultation, saying that they do not want this. The small print of the decision says that the decision is subject to special parliamentary procedure. Will the Prime Minister please let the people of Bedfordshire know that this Government are not like the previous Government, that we listen to local concerns and that we will ensure that that monstrous rubbish-guzzling atmosphere-polluting incinerator will not be imposed upon the people of Bedfordshire?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. There are difficult planning decisions that have to be made, but what the Government have done is made sure that the planning system is more democratic and reports to Parliament, and that Ministers have to take decisions and be accountable. I cannot speak for how those Ministers have to make those decisions. They have to make them in their own way, but we have ended the idea of the vast quango with absolutely no accountability, as my hon. Friend rightly says.

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

Q8. The Prime Minister has warned African countries that unless they improve gay rights, he will cut their aid, yet in many African countries where we pour in millions of pounds of aid, Christians face great persecution and destruction of churches, lives and property. Here in the UK, anyone who displays a Bible verse on the wall of a café faces prosecution. Was Ann Widdecombe right when she said that in the 21st century hedgehogs have more rights than Christians?

[The Prime Minister]

Ann Widdecombe is often right—not always right, but often right. The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The way we judge our aid decisions is to look at human rights across the piece. That means how people are treating Christians and also the appalling behaviour of some African countries towards people who are gay.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

Q14. In Eastbourne we recently recruited 181 apprentices in 100 days. My local training provider, Sussex Downs, tells me that 91% of its hospitality apprentices go into full-time jobs. Does the Prime Minister agree that apprenticeships work and in Eastbourne they work particularly well?

[The Prime Minister]

I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend about that. We found funding for an extra 50,000 apprenticeships last year and achieved almost double that because of the enthusiasm that there is among the business community and among young people. We are now running at about 360,000 a year and hope to achieve about 250,000 more apprentices than were planned under the previous Government. It is an important development in our country. We want to make sure that apprenticeship schemes are aimed at young people who need work and also aimed at the higher level—people going on to get degree-equivalent qualifications, so it is not seen as a second best. For many people it is the right career path, and there are companies in Britain such as Rolls-Royce where many of the people on the board started with an apprenticeship.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Q9. On reflection, is now the right time for the Prime Minister to scrap Labour’s indeterminate sentences for public protection, as the Justice Secretary wants to do? They were introduced to save dangerous violent criminals from harming the British public. Will the Prime Minister accept from me that the decision should not be about prison places, but about the protection of the British public?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary will make an announcement about this shortly. What the right hon. Gentleman will find is that we will be replacing a failed system that does not work and which the public do not understand with tough determinate sentences. People have always wanted to know that when someone is sent to prison for a serious offence, they do not, as currently, get let out halfway through. We will be putting an end to that scandal and I expect it to have widespread support.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

Q10. If women were to start businesses at the same rate as men, we would have 150,000 more businesses per year in this country. I have some exceptional female entrepreneurs in my constituency, such as Cath Kidston. What can my right hon. Friend do to encourage more female entrepreneurs to create growth and jobs for the country?

[The Prime Minister]

There are many things that Government can do. In the last Budget there were a series of steps such as the enterprise finance schemes that we have established and the changes to capital gains tax. The biggest change is a change in culture, encouraging people to take that first step and supporting them along the way as they go.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Last week the House, to its great credit, supported unanimously full transparency from Government in respect of all documents relating to the Hillsborough disaster. Will the Prime Minister join me in calling on South Yorkshire police, following the example of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), to commit to the same openness and ensure that the Hillsborough independent panel has unredacted access to all papers?

[The Prime Minister]

I will certainly look at the issue the hon. Lady raises. I am not fully aware of the situation regarding the police papers and do not want to give her a flip answer across the Dispatch Box. The Government have done what we should have done with regard to the Cabinet papers, but I am very happy to look at the point she raises and get back to her.

[Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

Q11. Will my right hon. Friend join me in praising all the adopters and foster carers in Crewe and Nantwich and elsewhere for the fantastic work they do and encourage others to come forward to foster and adopt and to recognise during national care leavers week that we can do much more to provide care leavers with the sustained and enduring support that they often need and always deserve?

[The Prime Minister]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. He speaks from great experience, as his parents have helped to foster around 90 children over the past few decades, which I think is a magnificent example. As I said in my party conference speech, we really need to attack every aspect of this issue. It is a national scandal that there are 3,660 children under the age of one in the care system, but last year only 60 were adopted. We have got to do a lot better. Part of it is about bureaucracy and part of it is about culture, but a lot of it is about encouraging good foster parents and adoptive parents to come forward and giving them security in the knowledge that the process will not be as bad as it is now. Thorough-going reform is required. My hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for children is leading this work and I am confident that we can make some real breakthroughs in this area.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q12. On 11 August the Prime Minister told the House that there would be a report to Parliament on cross-Government activity relating to gangs. Where is that report and when will we see it?

[The Prime Minister]

We are working intensively right across Whitehall on the gang issue, because I think that in the past, frankly, this was something that was dealt with in the Home Office and there was not the same input from other Departments, so we are doing exactly that, and when we are ready to make a report to Parliament we will do so.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Q13. When I worked in the private sector—[Interruption.] When I worked in the private sector I benefited from statutory maternity leave. Will the Prime Minister remind the House how this Government are making work more flexible and family-friendly?

[The Prime Minister]

How typical of the Opposition. If someone talks about the private sector or job creation, all they have is a lack of respect and sneering. It is absolutely typical. My hon. Friend speaks from great experience. We want to be a family-friendly Government, which is why we are putting the extra hours and help into nursery education, increasing child tax credit, by £290 for the least well-off families, and why we will also be introducing proper help for flexible parenting.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

Q15. Westminster police command is now being required to lose 240 police community support officers, slashing by two thirds the number of PCSOs doing security and counter-terrorism work, and every single PCSO in the borough must now reapply for their own job. What message does the Prime Minister think this sends to the public, who want to see visible, patrol-based policing on their streets?

[The Prime Minister]

The point I would make to the hon. Lady is this: we are asking the Metropolitan Police Authority to find a cash reduction over the next four years of 6.2%. We face an enormous deficit in this country because of what we inherited from the Labour party. We have to make difficult decisions. Frankly, I do not think it is impossible to find a 6.2% cash reduction while keeping good front-line policing at the same time, and I am very confident that my good friend Boris Johnson will do exactly that.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Is the Prime Minister as enthusiastic as I am about the Localism Bill and the prospect that it will deliver real growth and empower local communities? Does he agree that the best way to tackle political disengagement is through local accountability?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We all know that we are not building enough in this country to provide houses for our young people, to end the scandal of overcrowding and to reduce the number of people on housing waiting lists. The best way to get that to happen is to ensure that local people really feel they have a say in and control over development in their own area. That is the way to square the circle. The top-down targets under the previous Government did not work, but the localist approach will.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister, when Leader of the Opposition, pledged to fight bare-knuckled against hospital closures. Will he give the House a guarantee today that for as long as he is Prime Minister there will be no hospital closures on his watch?

[The Prime Minister]

The pledge I can make to the hon. Gentleman is the one I made when I visited his constituency, which is that we are funding the expansion of his hospital.

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

I congratulate the Prime Minister and thank him for all the work that the Department for Education is doing on free schools. Can he please give encouragement to the two sets of parents’ groups that are looking to build two free schools—a junior and a secondary school—in South Derbyshire?

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly give my hon. Friend that encouragement. I think the free schools policy is a great success, as we see a number of really high-quality schools coming in across our country, and it is depressing to see the attitude of the Opposition towards this policy. What we had was a new shadow Education Secretary, who in the first flushes of the job, said that he would support free schools, but as soon as Unite picked up the phone to him he had to drop that altogether. Do you want to know what their policy is now, Mr Speaker? He said:

“What I said…is we oppose the policy…but…some of them are going to be really good”—

schools—

“run by really good people and we’re not going to put ourselves in a position as a Labour Party of opposing those schools”.

So, they oppose the policy but they support the schools. What a complete bunch of hypocrites.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Can the Prime Minister explain why his Secretary of State for Health was able to make concessions to the Liberal Democrats on the Health and Social Care Bill in the other place last night, but was unable to recognise the need for those changes when it was debated here? Is that not more about doing political deals rather that doing what is right for our NHS?

[The Prime Minister]

We are doing what is right for our NHS, and that is why average waiting times for in-patients are down, average waiting times for out-patients are down, hospital infections are at their lowest level ever, the number of mixed-sex wards is down by 91% under this Government, the number of managers is down and the number of doctors is up. If the hon. Lady wants to see further improvements to the Health and Social Care Bill, she will have plenty of opportunities.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Two thirds of young people involved in the riots had a special educational need. Does the Prime Minister agree that that underlines the need for complex solutions which tackle educational underachievement and rehabilitation as well as punishment?

[The Prime Minister]

Of course, as I have said many times at this Dispatch Box, we have to look behind the statistics and what happened and ask ourselves how we have allowed so much to go wrong in our society. Clearly, education and special educational needs play a role in that, but I do think it is important, and the public want, to see swift justice and punishment handed out when people break the law. We did see that at the time of the riots, and I think we should see it all the time.

[Mr Speaker]

I appeal to Members leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly.

Social Care for Older People

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I wish to present a petition from the Rotherham pensioners action group, led by the group’s chair, Mr Keith Billington of Foster road, Wickersley. I have a petition in similar terms with more than 500 signatures gathered by the group over the weekend of the Rotherham show last month. The petitioners want a better, fairer system of care for the future. They are worried about the crisis in care caused by big Government cuts in funding as pensioners see services cut, charges increase, and support restricted to those with the most critical care needs.

The petition states:

The Petition of Rotherham Pensioners' Action Group,

Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about social care for older people.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to implement a fair and equitable system of care for the elderly, without imposing a financial burden on those requiring care.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000969]

Send our Sister to School Campaign

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): In 2000, world leaders promised universal education by 2015. Progress has been made, but with fewer than four years to go 67 million children are still missing out on school, the vast majority of whom are girls. I am grateful to the pupils of Overfields primary school, Middlesbrough for bringing this to my attention in the most colourful way.

The petition states:

The Petition of pupils of Overfields Primary School, Middlesbrough,

Declares that the Petitioners support the Send our Sister to School Campaign which aims to give girls the same chance as boys to benefit from an education and that the Petitioners support the international agreement to get all children into education by 2015.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to raise the commitment to get all children into education by 2015 at the G20 summit in November.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000972]

Liverpool Coastguard Station

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)

- Hansard - - Excerpts

The staff of and residents around Liverpool coastguard station—otherwise known as Crosby coastguard station—are trying to keep it open. In support of the petition are 51,000 names on a similar petition, which I have with me in a box. The petitioners would like the maritime operation centre to be hosted at Crosby as a means of keeping the station open, which would save the Government a significant amount of money.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of Merseyside,

Declares that the closure of Liverpool Coastguard Station would result in the loss of vital local knowledge and a reduction in the efficiency of rescues of people in difficulty along our coastline and at sea.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take steps to ensure that Liverpool Coastguard Station remains open.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000973]

Points of Order

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

12:32

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In this morning’s Westminster Hall debate about the future of BBC local radio, the Minister used the word “priggish” in response to my intervention in which I asked him to address concerns, which many right hon. and hon. Members have raised, about a loss of jobs and an impact on vulnerable, elderly and disabled people who rely on BBC local radio. The debate was attended by more than 50 Members from all parts of the House, and it had been good natured and consensual. I wonder whether “priggish” is appropriate in a parliamentary debate. If not, should the Minister come to this place to apologise not only to Members but to those who face losing their jobs and those who rely on such services?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman comes in, I know he is bursting with enthusiasm, but he must contain himself.

What I would say to the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) is that control of that sitting was the responsibility of the Chair in Westminster Hall. It sounds like an intriguing debate, and it may well be that I should study it at some point, but I have nothing to add at this stage.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Obviously not on the same subject, because I have already given a ruling. I know that the hon. Gentleman will be dextrous enough to devise an alternative point of order on a wholly unrelated subject.

[Kevin Brennan]

Indeed, Mr Speaker. In Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister used the phrase “a bunch of hypocrites” and the word “mug”. Could you make it clear that they are in order? I would like to be able to use “mug” in the House to describe the Deputy Prime Minister, knowing that I would be in order, and also to be free with the use of “a bunch of hypocrites” as often as I please when describing the coalition Government.

[Mr Speaker]

What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is, I hope, simple and clear: what is involved, in my judgment, is not a matter of order but of taste, and for the avoidance of doubt I would prefer not to hear either term used in the future by any Member.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Like many in the House, I warmly welcome the Government’s e-petition system, which triggered our important debate on Monday. However, I want to ask your advice, because there is no guidance on whether Members of Parliament should sign e-petitions. I believe that they should not do so, because such petitions call for debates. May we have some clarity on the process?

[Mr Speaker]

In a sense, it is flattering to me that the hon. Gentleman seeks my guidance, but it is not appropriate for me to provide it. My simple advice is that it is for the hon. Gentleman as an individual Member to decide whether to sign a petition, and I offer that advice to all hon. Members—make your own judgment on the merits of the case. There is no rule, no Standing Order and no matter of parliamentary proprietary involved one way or the other.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, while we are on the subject of Monday’s important debate, which was the result of a Backbench Business Committee decision, would it assist the House if you were to indicate that when the Committee chooses a resolution for debate, it should not normally be subject to amendment, certainly not to amendments tabled by Front Benchers, and probably not to amendments tabled by Back Benchers who did not attend the Backbench Business Committee to try to have their suggestions adopted?

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman understands that the Chair preserves, rightly, a certain discretion in these matters, and I always look at each case on its merits. Suffice it to say that I respect the Backbench Business Committee process. I am strongly in favour of clarity and straightforwardness in debates of this kind, and any proposed amendments tend to be considered by me in the light of that criterion.

If there are no further points of order, we come to the ten-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) has been so patiently waiting. That has the advantage that the Chamber is rather quieter now.

National Curriculum (Emergency Life Support Skills)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

12:37

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of State to include the teaching of emergency life support skills in schools as a compulsory part of the National Curriculum; and for connected purposes.

Every year, 150,000 people die when first aid could have made a difference. Thirty thousand people have a cardiac arrest outside a hospital environment, but fewer than 10% survive to be discharged from hospital. Emergency life support skills are a set of actions needed to keep someone alive until professional help arrives. They include cardiopulmonary resuscitation—CPR—putting an unconscious person into the recovery position, dealing with choking and serious bleeding, and helping someone who may be having a heart attack.

Those skills are crucial at the time of a cardiac arrest when every second counts. For every minute that passes, the chance of survival falls by 10%. If CPR is started immediately, the time that someone remains in a shockable and hence reversible condition will be prolonged. It also means that more brain function will remain, and more of them will be left if they are resuscitated. It is not often that any Government have the opportunity simply, cheaply and immediately to save lives, but my Bill would allow them to do just that. Teaching these crucial life-saving skills to every school pupil would make a tangible difference to civil life in this country.

We know how it is when someone collapses or has a road traffic accident. Everyone stands around in a circle waiting for someone to act, usually too frightened to intervene. Now let us imagine a situation in which every school leaver could step in and attempt to save lives: fear gone, skills in place. Currently only 7% of people in the UK know first aid. We should compare that with Seattle, where one is rarely more than 12 feet away from someone who can save one’s life. There, one cannot graduate from school or gain one’s driving licence without learning first aid skills.

The Government like to compare us internationally. In France, Denmark and Norway, emergency life support skills are already a compulsory part of the curriculum. Norway educated 200,000 people in just six weeks. A number of states in Australia include ELS, and in America it is part of the curriculum in 36 of the 50 states. Training is happening in the UK, but the only way to ensure that all children are taught these essential skills is by placing them in the national curriculum. The British Heart Foundation has worked with me on this Bill, alongside other charities such as the Red Cross and St John Ambulance. The British Heart Foundation has more than 1,400 Heartstart schools, three quarters of which are primary schools. It has trained more than 760,000 children, a significant number of whom have had to put their life-saving skills into practice; and 625,000 children have been taught valuable life-saving skills through the St John Ambulance first-aid materials.

Let us imagine the difference that would be made if my Bill became law and every child became a life saver. The Government say they want the national curriculum to reflect the essential knowledge and understanding that people should be expected to have to enable them to take their place as an educated member of society. Surely knowing how to save the life of a family member or a member of the public would enable children to have an impact on the health of society. Ensuring that life-saving skills are taught in schools provides the chance to instil in all children how valuable life is and how important it is to be a good citizen. My Bill would provide a real, lasting cultural heritage.

There are several places where ELS would fit into the national curriculum—in PE, in science, in personal, social and health education, or in citizenship—and it takes only two hours to teach. That is just 0.2% of a school year, or the equivalent of one cross-country run. In just two hours of their school life, children can learn the skills to save a life. The skills should be taught from year 7 and refreshed each year until the pupil leaves school. In fact, the skills can be taught to younger children; I have heard some amazing stories of how young children have saved lives. Moreover, these measures would be popular. Seventy per cent. of parents, 78% of pupils and 86% of teachers have said that ELS should be taught in schools.

One of my local schools, Smithills, runs the British Heart Foundation’s Heartstart scheme. ELS is taught in a variety of ways, and the school is now aiming to widen the scheme so that during the school holidays parents and siblings are able to learn these vital skills too. The teacher in charge, Adrian Hamilton, told me that learning how to save a life in an emergency really engages the children at Smithills. He believes that it goes a long way towards helping them to become better citizens and that it should be an expected part of what happens in schools.

Since I started to promote emergency life support skills, I have heard some tragic and some inspirational stories. I met Beth, the mother of Guy Evans who sadly died at the age of 17 in 2008. Guy was riding his motorcycle when he had a sudden cardiac arrhythmia. He fell off his motorbike and lay there while his friends stood around not knowing what to do. If only they had been taught emergency life-saving skills, they would not have faced the trauma of watching their friend die without doing anything to help. They would not now be living their lives full of the suspicion that perhaps, if only they had known what to do, Guy would still be alive. Beth has been campaigning ever since to get ELS into the school curriculum and into driving tests.

I also met Tabitha. When she was 17, a week before the summer holidays, she ran to join friends and teachers on a fire drill. She does not remember anything else, but she collapsed with heart failure. She had been born with a congenital heart defect that nobody knew about. Fortunately, her school secretary had been taught CPR and so administered it until, first, an emergency responder, and then the paramedics arrived. Tabitha made it to hospital with all her faculties still intact, where she had emergency surgery and made a full recovery. Tabitha is now a voluntary emergency responder and, like Beth, is working hard to get ELS taught in schools.

I received correspondence from St Aidan’s primary school in St Helens telling me about a year 6 pupil who was with her parents and 15 other adults when her eight-year-old brother started to choke on his food. He went blue and virtually collapsed at the table. All the adults stood around not knowing what to do, but the year 6 child jumped into action, put her training into use and saved her brother’s life. If she had not been there, 15 adults might have watched a little boy die in front of them.

Sheringham Woodfields, a complex needs school, told me about the enormous sense of achievement its pupils feel when they realise that they can save a life. One of its pupils received a bravery award when he saved somebody on the Norfolk broads.

A few weeks ago, 15-year-old Patrick Horrock had a heart attack in Hindley leisure centre, just next door to my constituency. A member of staff performed CPR and another used a defibrillator to restart his heart. Patrick is alive and well because people knew what to do and had the tools to do it.

Peter Roberts, a 12-year-old, was enjoying teacakes with his mum when he realised that she could not breath, speak or shout. She was choking on a currant. Peter stepped in and delivered his training perfectly, doing back blows. After the third blow, the currant came out. What makes the story even more moving is that Peter’s mum is paraplegic, following a parachuting accident a few years ago. She had no feeling in her windpipe and did not realise that she was choking. Peter saved her life.

A young mum from the Cotelands pupil referral unit in Surrey was able to save her young son from having to have skin grafts because of the way she dealt with a serious accident. Christopher Boylan, a 17-year-old from Merseyside, saved his mum’s life by performing CPR when she suffered cardiac arrest. He had learned CPR at the Scouts.

Brittany Bull Targett, a 13-year-old, saved 11-year-old Charlie when he fell off his bike and knocked himself out. Brittany said:

“He was choking on his own blood so I cleared his airway, cleared the blood out, and put him in the recovery position. I have never done anything like this before and it was thanks to the training we had at school that I knew what to do”.

There are many such stories of people who are alive and well because someone knew what to do. I cannot imagine anything more awful than standing by and watching someone lose their life when it could have been saved if only I or someone else had known what to do. Some of my local firefighters who are Heartstart tutors said something to me that really made me think. One of the reasons that we do not act when somebody collapses is that we are scared of making things worse. They said that if a casualty has stopped breathing, they are dead. Somebody else cannot make them any deader, but they can give them the chance to live.

Cardiac arrest does not discriminate between young and old or between genders and races; it can happen to the fittest people. Tragically, 12 young people die every week from undiagnosed heart conditions. Too many of us do not know what to do. My Bill would enable our children to have the essential skills to save a life and to never have to stand by and do nothing. I do so wish that it would become law.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Julie Hilling, Craig Whittaker, Rosie Cooper, Simon Kirby, Tom Brake, Steve Rotheram, Andrew Percy, Nic Dakin, Valerie Vaz, Chris Ruane, Mr Kevin Barron and Justin Tomlinson present the Bill.

Julie Hilling accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 20 January 2012, and to be printed (Bill 240).

Opposition Day

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Un-allotted Day]

National Health Service

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

12:48

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House recalls that the Prime Minister made a series of personal pledges on the NHS in the run up to the General Election which were carried over to the Coalition Agreement; believes it is now clear he has failed to honour three of the headline commitments in the Coalition Agreement; notes firstly that Treasury figures from July 2011 confirm that NHS spending fell in real terms in 2010-11, contrary to the guarantee that health spending will increase in real terms in each year of the Parliament; notes secondly recent central approval of changes to hospital services, in breach of a moratorium on such changes; notes thirdly the Prime Minister’s continuation, despite widespread opposition, with the Health and Social Care Bill, contrary to the pledge in the Coalition Agreement to stop top-down reorganisations of the NHS; believes there is mounting evidence that the combination of an unprecedented financial challenge combined with the biggest reorganisation in the history of the NHS is damaging patient care and leading to longer waiting times; is concerned that huge cuts to adult social care in England will further limit hospitals’ ability to cope with coming winter pressures; and calls on the Government to listen to GPs and NHS staff, drop the Bill and accept the offer of cross-party talks on reforming NHS commissioning.

We read today that the Government were in open retreat last night on their Health and Social Care Bill in the House of Lords. Given that, we thought it only right to bring the Secretary of State here today to be held to account by this elected House. He tried to shuffle off his responsibilities and dug in when the Bill was in this place, only to give in down there. That came just hours after he had to confirm that he would still take oral questions in this House, despite a claim to the contrary by his preferred candidate to take over the running of the NHS. The Secretary of State may be on the run, but we will not let him hide. Our NHS is too precious to too many people in this country to be carved up in dodgy coalition deals in the unelected House. His Bill is unravelling before his eyes, and coalition health policy is in chaos. Today, we hold him to account for that.

To be fair to the right hon. Gentleman, the responsibility is not all his. It goes right up to the door of No. 10 Downing street. People will remember only too well, in the run-up to the general election, the then Leader of the Opposition’s ostentatious shows of affection for the NHS, his airbrushed face on the posters and three very personal promises—real-terms increases in every year of this Parliament, no accident and emergency or maternity closures, and no top-down reorganisation of the NHS. He protested his love for the NHS, and at photo call after photo call on the wards he routinely wore his heart on his sleeve. As we now know, he was protesting a little too much, and today we expose the hollowness of his promises.

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

May I take this opportunity to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new post? He is back where he once was, but on the other side of the House.

Last year, in The Guardian, the right hon. Gentleman stated that it was

“irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms”.

Does he still stand by that statement?

[Andy Burnham]

I am not sure whether I should thank the hon. Lady for reminding me that I am now a shadow of my former self, but I thank her for her words. I will come to the precise question that she asks. I did indeed say those words, and I will explain why in a moment.

I was talking about the three headline promises that the Prime Minister made on the wards. They were part of a calculated and self-serving political strategy to detoxify the Tory brand, not a genuine concern for the NHS. It was cynical because, as we will show today, those were cheques for the NHS that the Tories knew they could not cash, and promises that they had no real intention of keeping. Let us take the Prime Minister’s three personal promises in turn, starting with the one on NHS funding. It will be good to get to the bottom of that once and for all.

At the last election, Labour promised to guarantee to maintain NHS front-line funding in real terms. The now Prime Minister, by contrast, offered real-terms increases. How big those increases would be was undefined, but that did not matter. The important thing was that, according to the requirements of the detoxification strategy, it sounded as though the Tories were planning to spend more.

I remember well our resulting exchanges with the then shadow Health Secretary, now the Heath Secretary, on the hustings. Indeed, the Prime Minister has in recent weeks been quoting what I said then, as the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) did a moment ago. I did indeed say that it was cynical and irresponsible to make those promises, and I repeat that today.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider “protecting the front line” to be the closure of many hospitals throughout the UK, mergers and the loss of vital cardiac services in such places as Ipswich? That was exactly what happened when he was Secretary of State.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman goes right to the heart of my speech today. We made those difficult decisions to get the NHS ready for the future. We grasped the nettle and took services out of hospitals and moved them into the community, because that is what has to happen if we are to have an NHS that is sustainable for the future. He stood on an election manifesto that promised the opposite. It was a dishonest pledge, and I will come to it in a moment.

I said a moment ago that it was irresponsible to promise real-terms increases. I say that because I completed a spending review of the NHS in March 2010 and knew the figures inside out. I had also been in detailed discussions with the Treasury on the funding of adult social care, in preparation for a White Paper. The implication of what the Conservatives featured on an election poster—cutting the deficit on an accelerated timetable while giving the NHS real-terms increases—could mean only one thing: unpalatable cuts to other public services, particularly adult social care, on which the NHS relies.

Despite that, the election pledge was carried over into the coalition agreement, which could not be clearer. It states:

“We will guarantee that health spending increases in real terms in each year of the Parliament”.

A year ago, at the time of the comprehensive spending review, the official figures claimed that that had been delivered, with a 0.1% settlement—essentially the same as Labour promised at the election.

[Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that before the general election, when he was Secretary of State, he said in the now infamous King’s Fund speech that the state should always be the preferred provider, irrespective of the quality of care that it provided to patients? Does he stand by that statement today, or is he now trying to drive a patient-centric health service rather than putting political ideology above patient care?

[Andy Burnham]

I think I should refer the hon. Gentleman back to the King’s Fund speech, because I did not say the NHS should be the preferred provider regardless of the quality of care it provided. I believe that the public NHS should have the first chance to change, and that was the preferred provider policy. We did not want to pull the rug from under the public NHS with a policy of “any willing provider”. If the NHS needed to change, we wanted to tell it, “You have to rise to the challenge, and you have a chance to do so. If you cannot, other providers will get a chance to come in.” That was the preferred provider policy, and I would be grateful if he did not misrepresent it.

As I said, a year ago the Government provided a 0.1% increase—or that was the headline, but the fine print began to emerge and their case began to fall apart from day one. It soon became clear that for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15, that figure included an annual £1 billion transfer to local government, ostensibly for social care but not ring-fenced, so councils would be free to spend it as they saw fit. The health funding settlement therefore already went below a real-terms increase. That transfer turned the apparently minuscule real-terms increase into a real-terms cut.

That still leaves 2010-11. When the coalition came into government, it immediately required primary care trusts to cut spending by increasing waiting times and restricting access to treatment, to generate an underspend in 2010-11.

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

indicated dissent.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)]

indicated dissent.

[Andy Burnham]

Ministers are shaking their heads, but I will read them the Treasury figures published in July this year, and let them tell me then that what I have just said is not true. The public expenditure statistical analyses from this year provide official confirmation of what I have just said. They show that in 2009-10 health spending was £102,751 million. That was in the last year of the Labour Government. In 2010-11, health spending was £101,985 million. There we have it in black and white—the first real-terms cut in health spending for 14 years. In fact, it is the first real-terms cut since the last year of the last Tory Government in 1996-97.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

I am interested to hear how the right hon. Gentleman is trying to manipulate those figures. How does he reconcile what he is saying with what his party’s Administration is doing in Wales, where the health service has been cut and hospital infections and waiting times have risen?

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman uses the word “manipulate”. May I say that I take great exception to that? I have read out the Treasury statistical analysis from this July. If he is telling me that I have misrepresented it, let him stand up again now and say so. If not, he should hold his peace. I remind him that his party’s Government delivered a much deeper cut to Wales than to Scotland or Northern Ireland. The Labour Administration are now dealing with the consequences of that.

[Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman’s figures depended on the lack of what he called a ring fence in the social care transfer of £1 billion. I can assure him that as far as Suffolk is concerned, there is absolutely no problem in trying to deal with the ring fence. In fact, the county council spends more than the amount that was previously ring-fenced, because of the pressure on social care.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman was not listening. The social care transfer comes in for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15, but I was talking about the year 2010-11 and, in the year ended, there was a real-terms cut to the NHS, as confirmed by Treasury figures. This debate is about that fact. He and his hon. Friends stood at the election, with those airbrushed posters all around them, promising that they would not cut the NHS, but in their first year in office, they delivered a real-terms cut to the NHS.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Is it not the case that, whatever Government Members say, 82% of councils offer social care only in critical and substantial cases, that thousands of people up and down the country are suffering the loss of their services, and that that will have a real hit on the NHS in years to come?

[Andy Burnham]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. That was precisely why I said it was irresponsible for the Conservatives to promise increases to the NHS in the way that they did, on a much-reduced public spending envelope. That has led to precisely the consequences that she describes. Indeed, that hidden cut to adult social care has been quantified at £2 billion.

I remember well Conservative party claims before the election about death taxes, but what about the dementia taxes that the Conservatives have loaded on to vulnerable older people up and down this country, who are now paying more out of their own pockets to pay for the care that they desperately need? That is the effect of cutting adult social care and cutting council budgets in that way.

We today the nail the position once and for all. The real position is worse than the one I described because of spiralling inflation, which in effect means even deeper real-terms cuts for the NHS this year and in all the years that follow.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions that the £2 billion transfer from the NHS social care budget is not ring-fenced, but I am sure he is aware that ring-fencing can have the perverse effect of ensuring that local authorities do not spend existing budgets. Will he clarify his position? Is ring-fencing a good idea or not?

[Andy Burnham]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I said that it was irresponsible to pledge the money for the health service in the way that the then Opposition did in the run-up to the election precisely because I realised that more would be needed for adult social care. However, if the NHS is to transfer money to local government for adult social care, we must be certain that it will pay for that and not for weekly bin collections or for whatever else he thinks is more important than supporting older, vulnerable people with the costs of care. He makes my point that that money should have been ring-fenced, so that adult social care could have been protected.

[Chris Skidmore]

indicated assent.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman nods, but I am afraid that that was not the Secretary of State’s policy.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

I compliment my right hon. Friend on how he is moving the motion. What are his views on the impact of the reduction of funding for the NHS on the front line, and on the number of hospital trusts that are breaching the 18-week target?

[Andy Burnham]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those words and I shall come to precisely that point, but let us be clear about this one: the Prime Minister promised a real-terms increase, but he has delivered a real-terms cut. He stands at the Dispatch Box week after week boasting about increasing health funding when he has not. All the while, NHS staff deal with the reality on the ground of his NHS cuts. Does he not realise how hopelessly out of touch he sounds? Hospitals everywhere are making severe cuts to services, closing wards, reducing A and E hours and closing overnight, making nurses redundant, and cutting training places. Last week, The Guardian revealed the random rationing that is taking place across the country. There are cuts to pay for management services, one third of neo-natal units are reducing the number of nurses, and midwife places are being cut despite the Prime Minister’s promise to recruit 3,000 more.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a great deal out of cuts. The Government have committed an extra £15 billion to the NHS over the lifetime of this Parliament, but the Opposition have consistently failed to agree to commit to any additional funding. Will he make that commitment now?

[Andy Burnham]

A moment ago, the hon. Gentleman acknowledged that I protected the NHS front line as Health Secretary. As Health Secretary, I would not have introduced a £2.5 billion reorganisation when the NHS is facing severe financial stress.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Is it fair to say that under his leadership of the NHS, Monitor suggested that it needed to make efficiency savings? Those are coming through now, but the right hon. Gentleman is trying to present them as cuts to front-line services.

[Andy Burnham]

No. Let me explain the position to the hon. Lady so that she understands it. It is correct that in the previous Parliament, not Monitor, but the chief executive of the NHS, suggested that the NHS would have to make around £20 billion of efficiency savings over the four years of this Parliament. That is called the Nicholson challenge, which I accepted. However, contrary to what the Prime Minister said at the Dispatch Box last week, it was intended that every penny of that money would go back into the NHS to help it to deal with the pressures that it faces. I am afraid that the Government are again misrepresenting my position.

My position is different from the Secretary of State’s because that challenge, on its own, would have been all-consuming for the NHS, meaning that it would have had to focus every ounce of its energy on rising to that challenge. The last thing in the world that the NHS needs is a huge reorganisation, because it will take its eye off the ball, meaning that it cannot rise to that challenge.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that during the so-called “pause for thought”, nothing was done to stop the NHS reorganising ahead of legislation that was yet to go through Parliament? Was that not contemptuous of both Parliament and of the genuinely held concerns of Liberal Democrat coalition partners?

[Andy Burnham]

Frankly, it is disgraceful that primary care trusts were allowed to disintegrate before Parliament had given its consent to those changes, leaving the NHS in limbo in most communities represented in the House. I have said that the Government have put the NHS in the danger zone, and I mean it. There is no capacity on the ground to help the NHS through these difficult times. It has lost the grip it would have needed to take us through the financial challenge, and I lay that charge directly at the Secretary of State’s door.

[Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Andy Burnham]

I will give way in a moment.

I mentioned that the Prime Minister is out of touch, and that he promised to recruit 3,000 more midwives and then handed out redundancy notices to them. However, if the Prime Minister is out of touch, I worry that the Secretary of State is in outright denial. On 11 October, when my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) asked him about the practice of hospitals re-grading or down-banding nursing posts to cut their costs, he replied:

“I am not aware—my colleagues may be—of…trusts…seeking to manage their costs by the downgrading of existing staff. If you are aware of that, then, by all means, tell us, but I was not aware.”

The very next day, that version of events was directly contradicted by Janet Davies of the Royal College of Nursing, who said that

“the Royal College of Nursing has raised the issue of downbanding with the Secretary of State on a number of occasions, alongside other concerns such as recruitment freezes and redundancies in the NHS…Our members’ survey released earlier this month also revealed that 7% of nurses expect to be downbanded in the next 12 months”.

If the Secretary of State would like to correct the evidence that he gave to the Select Committee on Health and confirm that he was aware of the practice of down-banding, he can be my guest right now.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not change a word of what I told the Health Committee—it was entirely accurate. I have checked the records, and at no stage had the RCN raised that issue with me.

[Andy Burnham]

The Secretary of State directly contradicts, on the record, a spokesperson from the Royal College of Nursing. If he stands by his evidence, will he publish the minutes of his meetings with the RCN in which it states that the issue of down-banding was specifically discussed?

[Mr Lansley]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

When I am ready.

Will the Secretary of State promise today to publish those minutes?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I shall publish the minutes of those meetings, but I resent the implication from the right hon. Gentleman that I would stand at this Dispatch Box or sit before a Select Committee and say anything other than what I believed to be the complete truth.

[Andy Burnham]

If that is the case, I respectfully ask the Health Secretary why he has not responded to a letter from my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire—

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

indicated assent.

[Andy Burnham]

My hon. Friend is nodding. Why has the Secretary of State not responded to the letter that my hon. Friend sent to him several weeks ago pointing out the discrepancy between his evidence and the statements from the RCN? If he wants to adopt a pious tone in the House, he needs to reply to his letters on time and put his facts on the record.

[Mr Lansley]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way again?

[Andy Burnham]

Is the right hon. Gentleman telling or asking? [Interruption.] I give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Lansley]

If the right hon. Gentleman is going to insult me, he ought at least to give way. I have seen no letter from the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper). I have seen a letter from the Chairman of the Health Select Committee, to which I approved an answer.

[Andy Burnham]

Well, that is no good to me. We have not seen that answer. The right hon. Gentleman needs to reply to hon. Members’ correspondence in a timely fashion, especially when it relates to serious issues about discrepancies between his evidence and statements made by the RCN.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

I would like to inform both my right hon. Friend and the Secretary of State that I did, in fact, write to you but have received no reply. In my letter, which I shall ensure gets to you again, I asked you to publish the minutes of that meeting. It was very clear. One or other of you have made a severe error.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We must preserve the proper parliamentary terms. Nobody has written to me and I have not made a severe error. We will leave it at that.

[Andy Burnham]

It is clear that we will get to the bottom of this, because the Secretary of State has committed to publishing the minutes, and if he is suggesting that the RCN has been inaccurate, he needs to produce the evidence.

That takes me to the Prime Minister’s second personal promise on the NHS, which deals with hospital reconfiguration and the mythical moratorium.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I shall give way in a moment.

If we thought that the Conservative party’s promises on funding were bad enough, the sheer audacity of its claims on hospital closures is breathtaking. Before the last election, the right hon. Gentleman toured the country promising the earth to every Conservative candidate he met. I recall seeing his commitments—I have them here—pile up in the Ashcroft-funded glossy leaflets that landed on my desk in the Department of Health. He said that he would reopen the accident and emergency department in Burnley; he said that he would save and A and E in Hartlepool, but, scandalously, only if the town elected a Conservative MP; and I well remember the day he visited his hon. Friend—although, after this week, I doubt that the Government Front Bench team still consider him a friend—the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and promised the people of Bury in the leaflets I have here:

“Vote Conservative and if there is a Conservative government the maternity department will be kept open.”

It could not be clearer. However, the maternity department at Fairfield hospital is scheduled to close next March. It is disgraceful. However, the Prime Minister’s most shameful politicking came in north London. I lost count of the number of times he promised to save the A and E department at Chase Farm hospital.

[Chris Skidmore]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to name my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) without telling him?

[Mr Speaker]

Yes, it is.

[Andy Burnham]

I point out to the hon. Gentleman, with his clever point of order, that I did contact the office of the hon. Member for Bury North and, indeed, the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois).

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that clarification, but perhaps this is an opportunity for me to make the position clear. I am not cavilling at the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), but the position is basically this: if a Member is going to impugn the integrity or attack the record of an individual hon. Member, the Member who is the subject of the criticism should be notified in advance. The fact that someone simply intends to refer to another Member and something that may or may not have happened in his constituency during an election campaign, or at any other time, is not something of which prior notification is required.

[Andy Burnham]

After that rude interruption from the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), I shall get back to my script.

Just days after the election, the Prime Minister went to Chase Farm hospital, with the Secretary of State, to announce the coalition’s new policy of the moratorium and the following commitment in the coalition agreement:

“We will stop the centrally dictated closure of A&E and maternity wards.”

I have with me the photograph from that very visit of the Secretary of State holding up a placard stating his opposition to any changes to the A and E at Chase Farm hospital. However, he has recently failed to prevent those changes to the A and E department and maternity unit at Chase Farm hospital, leaving the new hon. Member for Enfield North writing a desperate letter to the Prime Minister stating that his constituents had been utterly let down by them both. I do not know whether the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State have the decency to feel embarrassed today, hearing these cynical promises repeated in the House. The proposed moratorium and opposition to closures were purely political and designed to help the Conservatives win votes in marginal seats. That is a fact.

[Tony Baldry]

I apologise for not having intervened quickly enough earlier, but the right hon. Gentleman says that he accepts the Nicholson challenge. Given that efficiency savings will have to be made in the NHS, where does he envisage those savings being made? It seems to me that every hospital trust will have to make efficiency savings somewhere, as a result of the Nicholson challenge.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman asks a very fair question. It is precisely such issues—about how to produce the savings—that are the important issues. Care has to be taken out of the hospital setting and we have to prevent too many elderly people, in particular, from going into hospital in the first place if we are to create an NHS that is able to face the future and that is financially and structurally sound. That is why I take such exception to the naked opportunism that we saw before the election, when I, as Health Secretary, was taking on some of those difficult challenges and grasping the nettle, including in my own backyard in Greater Manchester, where there was a difficult review of maternity and children services, involving the closure of four maternity units and shrinking their number to eight. We did that, we took on that debate, and yet the now Health Secretary was touring those marginal constituencies in Greater Manchester, saying that he would overturn our decision in office, but he has not done it. That is precisely the point that I am making to the House. We need a Health Secretary prepared to take those difficult decisions, if the NHS is to be able to make the savings that will sustain it in the long term.

[Joan Ruddock]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, because like the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), I missed the opportunity to intervene when efficiency savings were being discussed. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the key to this problem is proper discussion with the experts within the health service—with the nurses, doctors and all the people who administer our fantastic service? They are the ones who can give us ideas for efficiency savings. The hallmark of the Government is their failure to listen to the professionals.

[Andy Burnham]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. When we were in government, we said that there had to be a clinical case for change, if changes to hospital services were to be made. I mentioned Greater Manchester a moment ago. There was a clinical case to support those reforms. The experts, to which she rightly pointed, said that about 50 babies’ lives would be saved every year by specialising care in fewer locations. In such circumstances, politicians have a moral obligation to listen to those experts and to make changes, no matter how politically difficult they are. That is why I say that it was sheer opportunism of the worst kind for the Government, when in opposition, to say that they would have a moratorium on any changes and to tour those marginal constituencies promising to overturn decisions, when in fact they had no intention of doing so. I put it to the House that the people of Bury, Burnley and Enfield have now clearly discovered what opportunism there is from those on the Conservative Front Bench.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore welcome one of the Government’s first actions, which was to change the NHS operating guidelines for reconfigurations to ensure categorically that clinicians and the communities they serve were in the driving seat for future reconfiguration of the NHS?

[Andy Burnham]

If that is the case and the people of Enfield are in control of the decision, would Chase Farm A and E be closing? What the hon. Lady describes is a complete and utter reinvention of the moratorium policy. She stood on an election manifesto that promised a moratorium. Where is it? It has not materialised. It is a mythical policy that was designed to win votes; it had nothing to do with the good stewardship of the national health service.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I give way to my hon. Friend, who has a nearby interest in Chase Farm.

[Mr Love]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way, and yes, I do have an interest because constituents of mine have been affected by the decision at Chase Farm. Not only did the Secretary of State come to Chase Farm immediately after the election, but he announced the change in policy on reconfigurations. He introduced the so-called four tests, none of which has ever saved any unit, in any part of the country. The reality is that he seriously misled the people of Enfield, who are now bearing down on their Member of Parliament, who also misled them on this policy. It is an outrage and they feel badly let down by this Government on health service reform.

[Andy Burnham]

For the avoidance of doubt, let me address directly what my hon. Friend has said. A moment ago I mentioned a photograph of the Secretary of State on a visit to Chase Farm hospital just days after the election, when he announced his so-called moratorium—although no one has yet seen any evidence of it. He is holding up a placard in that photograph that says, “HANDS OFF! Chase Farm A & E”, underneath which are the words: “I oppose any cutbacks to our A & E,” and on the bottom we can see his signature. How on earth he can square that with the letter that he recently exchanged with his hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North, I do not know. I do not know how the Secretary of State can reconcile those two things in his mind or how he could look anyone in Enfield North in the eye, having promised them that he would save their accident and emergency department. It is quite scandalous. People across the country are discovering that the Prime Minister’s moratorium is utterly meaningless, as A and Es restrict opening hours and maternity wards close.

We now come to the third of the Prime Minister’s broken promises, on NHS reorganisation. Again, the coalition agreement could not have been clearer:

“We will stop the top-down reorganisations of the NHS”.

I have never understood how those in the coalition could possibly sign up to those words, when only weeks later they would bring forward a White Paper heralding the mother of all reorganisations, the biggest since 1948. I can see the cynical politics behind the Prime Minister’s first two pledges, but on this pledge at least he was right. A reorganisation is precisely the last thing that the NHS needs right now. I am clear: the abandonment of that pledge is the Prime Minister’s biggest mistake in office. If he ploughs on, he will ultimately pay a heavy price for it, because it is a catastrophic error of judgment to combine the biggest ever financial challenge in the NHS with the biggest ever reorganisation.

As Health Secretary, I was told by officials that rising to the financial challenge would require every ounce of our energy and focus. The NHS would need stability. Instead, this Government have picked up the pieces of the jigsaw and thrown them up in the air, distracting the service at the very moment it needed maximum focus. Grip has been lost; the NHS is drifting.

[Henry Smith]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree, however, that our NHS needs greater efficiency and localism, and that this requires reorganisation?

[Andy Burnham]

I said just a moment ago that I was the one who put my name to the Nicholson challenge, because that money was going to help the NHS respond to the new demands placed on it at this difficult time, so the hon. Gentleman need not lecture me about efficiency. He needs to tell me how placing a moratorium on change in the NHS helps it to respond and deliver those efficiencies. That is the contradiction of his position, and he stood for election on that policy, as did others.

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman and then to my hon. Friend.

[Andrew George]

I accept that the Health and Social Care Bill is the longest and most incoherent suicide note in NHS history. Indeed, I am robust on this issue: I have voted against the Bill and will continue to take that view. However, considering that the right hon. Gentleman was involved when preferential arrangements were provided for private sector providers coming into the NHS, is this debate not an opportunity for him to acknowledge that at the Dispatch Box and apologise to the House for what was a rather ridiculous and one-sided policy?

[Andy Burnham]

Let me first acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s courage in standing up and voting against the Health and Social Care Bill. I just wish that more of his Liberal Democrat colleagues had similar conviction and principle, and could stand up to the Government on a Bill that he knows—and which, in their heart of hearts, many of them know—will seriously damage the NHS.

The hon. Gentleman also asked me about the introduction of private sector capacity. I will not apologise for that, because that additional capacity was brought in to bring down NHS waiting lists, something that benefited his constituents. By bringing in that extra capacity we brought down NHS waiting lists to an all-time low and delivered the 18-week target. I am not going to apologise for that. The reason the NHS commands such strong support in the country today is that people’s experience of it improved in those years. I mentioned the preferred provider policy a moment ago. I believe that the private sector has a role to play in delivering world-class care to patients, and I am happy to put that on record.

[Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

At the heart of the current Bill are the 98 clauses that introduce competition law into the national health service—something that the last Government did not pass even one clause to do. Is not the ideology lying at the heart of the Bill what will wreck our national health service?

[Andy Burnham]

My right hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. Make no mistake: if the Bill passes, the NHS will never be the same again. The Bill will unpick the fabric of a public national health care system—a planned system—and turn it into a free-for-all, as he says. Indeed, it is unbelievable to see a letter in The Guardian today from senior Liberal Democrats—many of whom made the same argument a few weeks ago as my right hon. Friend—now saying that, because of a few tweaks to the Secretary of State’s powers, the time has come to abandon all their concerns about the provisions. That is a ridiculous statement to make. If they still have concerns about competition and privatisation, they should have the courage of their convictions and stand up against the Bill, instead of writing sanctimonious letters to The Guardian.

Grip has been lost; the NHS is drifting. However, the Government cannot say that they were not warned. Sir David Nicholson, the chief executive of the NHS, told the Public Accounts Committee that the reorganisation had increased the scale of the financial challenge:

“I’ll not sit here and tell you that the risks have not gone up. They have. The risks of delivering the totality of…the efficiency savings that we need over the next four years have gone up because of the big changes that are going on in the NHS as a whole.”

This has been a lost year in the NHS—a crucial year, when it needed to face up to the financial challenge—but things are not getting better. We face months of further uncertainty, as the Secretary of State battles on with his complicated and unwanted Bill. Four-hundred and ninety pages, 70-page letters to peers, amendments made on the hoof: it is a total mess. The NHS deserves better than this. Even the man the Secretary of State brought in to run his new NHS Commissioning Board describes his Bill as “completely unintelligible,” and went on to say:

“It is going to be messy as we go through a very complex transitional programme.”

And this from the Secretary of State’s friends.

The harsh truth is that the Secretary of State has comprehensively failed to build the consensus he needs behind his Bill. GPs do not want it; nurses do not want it; midwives do not want it; patients do not want it. I say to the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary today: stop digging in. Drop this Bill. If they do, my offer still stands, as our motion makes clear. We will work with the Secretary of State to reform NHS commissioning, giving GPs and other clinicians a bigger role. That can be achieved without legislation and a major structural upheaval of the entire NHS. It can be done through existing legal structures, giving immediate stability and saving millions.

We make our offer again today, as it is time for all politicians to put the NHS first. It is slipping backwards, and the warning signs are there for all to see. Waiting lists and waiting times are getting longer, with a 48% rise in the last year in the numbers of patients waiting more than 18 weeks. When patients are waiting longer, it is unforgivable that £2 billion to £3 billion has been set aside to pay for the costs of reorganisation. It is also unforgivable that £850 million is being spent on making people redundant who will end up being re-employed elsewhere in the system, in the new clinical commissioning groups.

We are witnessing a return to the bad old days of waiting longer or paying to go private. This is just a glimpse of the future. If the Bill passes, the NHS will never be the same again. We have all seen the adverts on television for the health lottery. Is this the right hon. Gentleman’s early marketing and his new brand name for our NHS?

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that one of the severe problems that the national health service is facing came about on his watch, when primary care trusts were allowed to build up huge deficits without making the economies and efficiencies that should have been made at that time, rather than on this Government’s watch?

[Andy Burnham]

I have never said that the NHS was perfect, or that there were no challenges during our time in government. But let me tell the hon. Gentleman what happened when the NHS was facing those deficits in 2006 and 2007. We took a grip at the centre and we brought those trusts back into financial balance, through hard work. There was a turnaround team in the Department, and we made sure that those difficulties were tackled at root. I do not see the same grip in the national health service right now. I see drift and lack of focus, and I see huge distraction as a result of this unwanted Bill.

[Sarah Newton]

The image that the right hon. Gentleman has just painted is totally inaccurate. The Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust is struggling with an enormous debt, which it incurred as a result of enormous reorganisations under Labour and a ridiculous accountancy measure that doubles the debt every year. I will not take comments like that from the right hon. Gentleman, because Cornwall has been left in a very difficult situation that this Government have been left to sort out.

[Andy Burnham]

I did not say that everything was perfect, but I said a moment ago that we took a grip on those problems and dealt with them from the centre. In the hon. Lady’s Government’s NHS, there will be—what are the words?—no bail-outs. Everyone will be left to fend for themselves. Does that mean that her hospital will be allowed to go bust? I do not know, but that is the implication of the Secretary of State’s White Paper and Bill, and she needs to direct her questions to him.

The fact is that we are now looking at a national postcode lottery, in which GPs are free to send letters to patients telling them that minor operations must now be paid for, and in which hospitals no longer have maximum waiting times for NHS patients and can devote the freed-up theatre time to private patients as there is no longer any cap on private work. The Government have placed the NHS in the danger zone. It has been placed there by a Prime Minister who said “Trust me” and has gone back on his word. He wrote cheques for the NHS in opposition that he knew he would not be able to cash when in government. He made promises that he knew he would be unable to keep, in order to win votes. This is the Prime Minister’s very own great NHS betrayal, and, far from detoxifying his party, he has proved once and for all that we really cannot trust the Tories with our NHS.

13:33

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

I ask the House to reject the motion. I am sorry about the tone of much of what the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said. This was his first opportunity to make a speech about the NHS and I thought that he might take the trouble to thank NHS staff for what they have achieved over the past year, rather than disparage and denigrate everything they have been doing. I also thought that he might take the opportunity to approach the issues facing the NHS from the standpoint of patients, rather than simply playing politics with the service, but he did not. Insulting me was the least of the problems in his speech. It seemed like the Burnham memorial speech—clearly no hard feelings about losing the election, then. Having spent 13 years in the House in opposition, I shall—at the risk of patronising him—give him a few words of advice: do not keep fighting the election that you lost. It is not the way to win any future election, and it will carry absolutely no credibility in the NHS.

Equally, the right hon. Gentleman will carry no credibility by wandering around telling people that he was not planning to cut the NHS budget, given that he made it absolutely clear in The Guardian last year that that was exactly what he intended to do and that he told us, in the run-up to the spending review, that it would be irresponsible to increase the NHS budget in real terms. I searched the Labour manifesto for any commitment to funding the NHS in real terms, but there is none. In March 2010, he might have said that he knew all these things, but he did not tell the public about any of it—[Interruption.] Well, it is here in his manifesto. The only reference to any kind of investment in the NHS is a plan to

“refocus capital investment on primary and community services”.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

In a moment.

We know what that meant, because when we opened the books on arriving in the Department we saw that Labour was planning to slash by more than half the capital budget of the NHS. Every Member of Parliament who has a major hospital building programme in their constituency would have been affected by that. That might include my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who has the Royal National Orthopaedic hospital in his constituency, or Members from Liverpool, who have the rebuild of the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen hospitals and, all being well, the rebuilding of Alder Hey. That might also include the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). The last Labour Government, before the election, cut the capital budget, and his project—the West Cumberland hospital at Whitehaven—could have been at risk as a consequence of that. [Interruption.]

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

No, he saved it.

[Mr Lansley]

I went with my colleagues; in fact, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury stood here at the Dispatch Box and reconfirmed support for that project, so I will not have any nonsense from the hon. Member for Copeland. [Interruption.] Withdraw that. I have not misled the House. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury came here and reconfirmed support for that project. I will not put up with being told from a sedentary position that I am misleading the House. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw that accusation.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am sure that it was not intentional, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) would not wish to leave it on the record. [Hon. Members: “Withdraw. The hon. Gentleman has been asked to withdraw.”] Order. I do not need any advice. I am sure that it was not intentional, and that the hon. Member for Copeland would not wish to leave it on the record.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

It was unintentional— [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I think that we have established that it was not intentional. I call the Secretary of State.

[Mr Lansley]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will now give way to the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown).

[Lyn Brown]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. Will he now admit that this is the first time that the NHS budget has seen a real-terms fall since 1996, the last year of the Tory Government?

[Mr Lansley]

One of the reasons that the House should reject the motion is that it is deeply flawed. Let me just take up the hon. Lady’s argument. What an own goal it is for Labour to say that NHS funding fell in 2010-11. That was the last year of the Labour Government’s spending plans, not ours. The amount available to the NHS in 2010-11—[Interruption.] I am answering the hon. Lady’s question. The amount available to the NHS in 2010-11 was exactly the same amount as the last Labour Government determined under their spending plans. So if Labour is accusing the NHS of having a reduction in real terms in 2010-11, that is a complete own goal, because it happened as a consequence of its decisions, not ours.

[Andy Burnham]

May I just explain to the Secretary of State the difference between projected budgets and out-turn figures, as published by the Treasury? Will he confirm that the figures published in the Treasury’s public expenditure statistical analysis will be the figures that go into the historical record, and that they will record a real-terms cut because of underspends that he ordered?

[Mr Lansley]

That is absolutely not true, because we ordered absolutely no cuts in the NHS budget in 2010-11 compared with the spending plans that we inherited. So that is a complete own goal on the right hon. Gentleman’s part. And in regard to all that stuff that he talked about the support that the NHS is giving to social care, I can tell him that, with the exception of the underspend in the departmental central budgets, because we cut back on all of its bureaucracy and its IT programme, we spent over £150 million, or whatever it was—

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

Sit down for a minute. I am answering the shadow Secretary of State. As I was saying, more than £150 million was generated from underspends in the departmental central budget in the last three months of the last financial year, and it was spent with local authorities in supporting social care. The rest of the social care support is for 2011-12, so what the right hon. Gentleman said cannot be a reason for the underspend in 2010-11. The amount spent was all in PCT allocations; there was no mechanism by which the Department of Health could go out and ask PCTs to spend less—the money was allocated to them. The shadow Secretary of State shakes his head, but he knows it is true. The money was allocated to the PCTs and they were free to spend the money they had.

The first reason to reject the motion is that it is a spectacular own goal. The second reason to reject it—

[Andy Burnham]

The right hon. Gentleman says it is not true that PCTs were asked to set aside funds and generate underspends, so may I remind him of a letter sent by the chief executive of the NHS shortly after the White Paper was published, telling primary care trusts to set aside funding for the cost of transition? That is clear; it is in black and white. He did ask PCTs to generate those funds to spend on the costs of his reorganisation.

[Mr Lansley]

I am sorry, but that is another spectacular own goal. Both before and after the election, the chief executive of the NHS set aside, as the right hon. Gentleman had planned before the election, £1.7 billion for non-recurrent expenditure for the costs of NHS reorganisation. It was done before the election; we never changed the figure. It is not a consequence of any of our plans, but a precise consequence of the right hon. Gentleman’s. He said he accepted the Nicholson challenge, and the £1.7 billion non-recurrent set aside in 2010-11 was to fund that challenge. That was set out before the election, not after it. I thought that one of the benefits of the former Secretary of State coming here to debate matters would be that we would be treated to a bit of knowledge of the NHS and of how it works, but that does not seem to be the case at all.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No, I want to make a bit of progress. Strictly speaking, I have not yet said anything I intended to say.

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Paul Farrelly]

rose—

[Bob Blackman]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

The second reason the House should reject the motion is that it fails to pay tribute to the hard-working staff of the NHS. I participated in many debates such as this when I was shadow Secretary of State and I thought that they provided an incredibly good opportunity for Members to raise issues relating to their own constituencies. I hope that that happens in this debate, as it is important. Every one of us has in our constituencies thousands of committed and hard-working NHS staff who want to know that we recognise it. I do not see any of that in the motion.

[Joan Ruddock]

rose—

[Paul Farrelly]

rose—

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

In this motion, there is nothing to recognise the contribution from NHS staff; it just denigrates them. It says nothing about people who rely on the NHS to care for them.

[Paul Farrelly]

rose—

[Joan Ruddock]

rose—

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

Next, the motion fails to offer any—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Three Members are trying to catch the Secretary of State’s eye. I am sure that he has noted that and that he will give way, but we cannot have three Members continuously on their feet.

[Mr Lansley]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Paul Farrelly]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

It is surprising that I am being embarrassed by so many interventions from the Labour Benches, because there are so few Labour Members here. I remember that before the election it was my recurrent experience that when we held Opposition day debates on the NHS, the Labour or Government Benches were nearly empty while our Benches were pretty full of Members who, because of our commitment to the NHS, were seeking to make points about it. Funnily enough, it does not seem to have happened in reverse. The Government Benches are still full while the Opposition Benches are nearly empty. [Interruption.]

[Paul Farrelly]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]

[Paul Farrelly]

I thank the Secretary of State. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. There are too many side comments coming from the Front Benches. Let us carry on with the debate. I am sure that the Secretary of State does not need any help.

[Paul Farrelly]

Staff of the High Street medical practice at Newcastle-under-Lyme are dedicated and hard working, yet that practice, which has 5,000 patients, is being forced to close. The Secretary of State has written me a letter, from which it is quite clear that closing directly run GP practices with salaried doctors is NHS policy. It is also clear that the closures are pre-empting proposed legislation to abolish PCTs, which is yet to go through Parliament. If the Secretary of State believed in a patient-focused NHS, surely he would be trying to save such practices, not encouraging their closure.

[Mr Lansley]

I will not delay the House at length with further explanation of what I wrote in my letter, as the hon. Gentleman quite properly raised the matter with me at topical questions. It is our intention to move to more consistent commissioning of primary care across the country through the NHS Commissioning Board, but the driver for that is still local decisions about what GP services should be available in an area and which practices are involved. The hon. Gentleman knows from my letter that this is the view of the local primary care trust. In future, it will be for the health and wellbeing boards, not least the clinical commissioning groups, to look at whether primary medical services can be provided with or without the sort of facilities that the hon. Gentleman mentioned.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Secretary of State asked for some examples of the impact on constituencies; I can give him two. First, the savings being forced on Salford PCT have led to the shutting of the NHS walk-in centre in one of our most deprived wards, which was serving 2,000 patients a month. Secondly, there is the serious issue of the closedown of active case management for long-term conditions. Patient services in Salford are being downgraded as a result of the savings and cuts that have to be made.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Lady will forgive me for not commenting in detail on that. If my memory serves, that has been the subject of a referral by the local authority to me, which I have sent to the independent reconfiguration panel for initial advice. It would be unhelpful and improper for me to prejudice that.

[Mr Love]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I will, as I am interested to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.

[Mr Love]

A year or 18 months into this Administration, does the right hon. Gentleman regret the announcement he made on the steps of Chase Farm hospital? Does he accept that the four tests have seriously misled local people about the future of the health service in their area? Does he recognise the demoralisation that that has caused in the local health service in Enfield, and what steps will he take to try to recover the situation and move forward?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman also intervened on the shadow Secretary of State. I am afraid that I do not recognise his description. I said before the election that we would have a moratorium on top-down and forced closure programmes affecting A and E and maternity services—and that is exactly what we did. A moratorium means what it says; it provides an opportunity to stop, to take stock and to subject something to the right tests. I set out for the first time the tests that needed to be met—that proposals needed to be consistent with prospective patient choice, consistent with the views of the local community, not least as expressed through the local authority, consistent with the views of the commissioners in the area, especially the developing clinical commissioning groups, and consistent with clinical evidence of safety.

In the context of Enfield and Chase Farm, the hon. Gentleman knows—because he was a participant in these discussions—that that moratorium was applied, that the opportunity was given to the local authority and the general practice community in Enfield to come forward with alternative solutions. We should also remember that among those four tests is the one about clinical evidence and safety. However, when those community groups came back and said, “We don’t have a specific alternative, but we just don’t want things to change”, I had to ask the independent reconfiguration panel to examine it. Its view was that that was not clinically sustainable.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No. I have given way many times. I am answering the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love). It was very clear that we could not proceed on that basis.

I have another point for the hon. Member for Edmonton about what I found in a number places. Although this was not true of the moratorium in Maidstone and Chase Farm, the moratorium has led to substantially improved outcomes for local services elsewhere, as with Burnley, Solihull, Sidcup, Ealing, the Whittington hospital and other places.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No. I am still answering a point raised in an earlier intervention. In all those places and others, the moratorium has led to better solutions.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No. I think that the moratorium has led to a better way forward even in Enfield. It is in the hands of the commissioners and the local authority in Enfield collectively, to make decisions for Enfield. Within two months I shall receive a report from NHS London advising whether it would be better organisationally for Chase Farm to be combined with North Middlesex rather than Barnet, and I should be interested to know the hon. Gentleman’s view on that. We continue to seek not top-down forced reconfigurations, but reconfigurations that consistently meet the four tests, and do so in the best interests of the NHS.

[Tony Baldry]

The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) implied that my right hon. Friend should have completely ignored the advice of the independent reconfiguration panel. Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether, when the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Health, there were any occasions on which he sought to ignore the panel’s advice?

[Andy Burnham]

No.

[Tony Baldry]

What is the point of having such a panel if it is to be ignored?

[Mr Lansley]

The right hon. Member for Leigh says from a sedentary position that he did not ignore the panel’s advice. I do not believe that a Secretary of State has directly sought to contradict the panel since its establishment, or has sought not to comply with its recommendations. After all, it is there for a reason. The point is that, as I have made clear, the panel should be involved in the application of those four tests, and in the past that has tended not to happen.

Let me explain why I am asking the House to reject the motion. I believe—and this was always my approach in opposition—that when we table such a motion, we ought at least to be clear about what our alternative solution would be, but there is no such solution in the motion. Let me remind the new, or recycled, shadow Secretary of State what his old friend James Purnell wrote last February:

“The Tories appear to have the centre ground. Labour need to take it back—by coming out in favour of free schools and GP commissioning”.

The right hon. Gentleman did not come out in favour of free schools. He now says that he is coming out in favour of GP commissioning. If he believed in GP commissioning, why did he do nothing about it? Why did everyone in the general practice community, throughout the length and breadth of the country, believe that practice-based commissioning had come to a virtual halt? Why did David Colin-Thomé, the right hon. Gentleman’s own national clinical director for primary care, effectively say that it had completely stalled and was not going anywhere?

I know that the right hon. Gentleman agreed with this at one time. Back in 2006, he said of GP commissioning:

“That change will put power in the hands of local GPs to drive improvements in their area, so it should give more power to their elbow than they have at present. That is what I would like to see”.—[Official Report, 16 May 2006; Vol. 446, c. 861.]

If the right hon. Gentleman wants that to happen, he must support the Bill that will make it happen. The same applies to health improvement and public health leadership in local government, and to our finally arriving at a point when, as was the last Labour Government’s intention, all NHS trusts become foundation trusts. We are going to make those things happen, but in order to do so we must have a legislative structure that supports them. That is evolutionary, not revolutionary. However much the right hon. Gentleman rants about the changes being made in the Bill, the truth is that it will do—in what his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) described as a “consistent, coherent and comprehensive” way—much of what was intended by our predecessors as Secretaries of State under the last Government. The fact that the right hon. Gentleman turned his back on that at the end of his time in office—mainly at the behest of the trade unions, which seem to be the dominant force in Labour politics—does not absolve him of his responsibility to accept that we are now delivering the reforms that he talked about.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The Secretary of State told my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) that there had been no cuts in the NHS budget. Does he recall cancelling the building project for a new hospital serving my constituents in south Easington as part of the comprehensive spending review?

[Mr Lansley]

On the occasion when the Chief Secretary to the Treasury told the House that we were supporting a number of hospital projects, we made it clear that the hon. Gentleman’s local trust was a foundation trust. As his colleagues should tell him, the point of a foundation trust is that it should take more responsibility for securing the resources—

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

I am answering the hon. Gentleman’s question. The point of a foundation trust is that it should take more responsibility for securing the resources enabling it to undertake its own building projects. Foundation trusts cannot walk into the Department of Health imagining that they will receive a capital grant of more than £400 million. That is simply not the way it works. It is to the credit of the hon. Gentleman’s local trust that it accepted that, and is working, as a foundation trust, on a better solution for the hon. Gentleman’s area.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No, because I have already given way to the right hon. Gentleman many times. Let me tell him this. If he was going to offer to try to work with others on GP commissioning, he ought at least to have demonstrated before the election that he was going to do something about it; and using a transparent political ploy to try and interfere with the passage of the legislation in another place carries no credibility with me or with anyone else. Labour’s tabling of a motion in the other place in an attempt to block the Bill completely showed no willingness to work together, and the fact that it was defeated by 134 votes ought to have given the right hon. Gentleman a reason—and sufficient humility—not to try to return to the subject by tabling today’s motion.

As I said earlier, I find it regrettable that neither the right hon. Gentleman’s motion nor his speech made any attempt to deal with what has happened in the NHS over the past year. Let me tell him, and the House—for I know my right hon. and hon. Friends will be interested as well—what has, in truth, happened during that time.

At the end of the last Labour Government, the average in-patient wait was 8.4 weeks. According to the latest available figures, that has fallen to 8.1 weeks. The average waiting time for out-patients was 4.3 weeks at the time of the last election; it is now 4.1 weeks. Over the last year, the number of MRSA bloodstream infections in hospitals has fallen by a third, and the number of clostridium difficile infections by 16%. Nearly three quarters of a million more people have access to NHS dentistry. Nearly 2 million people have access to the new 111 urgent care service, and the whole country will be covered within the next 18 months. When we came to office, I discovered that there had been talk about a 111 telephone system, but nothing had been done. It is now happening.

More than 75% of stroke patients now spend 90% or more of their hospital stay in a stroke unit. That is a 20% increase in two years. The Cancer Drugs Fund has given more than 5,000 patients access to the drugs that they desperately need, and which under the last Government’s regime would not have been available to them. We have embarked on an £800 million investment in translational research, increasing our financial support for it by 30%, to help to secure the United Kingdom as a world leader in health research.

The NHS is leading the way in the prevention of venous thromboembolism, with 86% of patients receiving an assessment for the condition. I believe that that constitutes an increase of some 30% in the last year. The bowel cancer screening programme is enabling many more patients and members of the public to be screened, there is more screening for diabetic retinopathy than ever before, and there were 188,000 more diagnostic tests in the three months to August than there were last year. Pathfinder clinical commissioning groups have been established virtually through England, and there are 138 health and wellbeing boards in local authorities, meeting and putting together their strategies to deliver population health gain across their areas.

In a single year, the year preceding the election, the right hon. Member for Leigh presided over a 32% increase in NHS management costs. That was the year after the banks had gone bust. It was the year when it was obvious that Government deficits were out of control. It was the year when the debt crisis was just about to crash over the whole public sector. What happened on the right hon. Gentleman’s watch? There was a 23% increase in management costs in a single year, to £350 million. In the year that followed, we reduced those costs to £329 million.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State tell us what the percentage of senior managers is, and how that compares with the percentage in the private sector?

[Mr Lansley]

Does the hon. Lady act as parliamentary private secretary to the shadow Secretary of State? Ah, she does. Well, she has the merit of consistency. I am reminded that in June 2006, when for a short period she was chair—I think—of Rochdale primary care trust, she resigned. She said that she resigned because the radical changes happening under the then Labour Government in 2006 would

“destroy the NHS as we know it.”

The hon. Lady has the merit of being consistent: she is against every Government and every change. She does not think that any steps will make the NHS into what it ought to be. I will not take any lectures from her, therefore.

I was explaining to the hon. Lady and the House what has been achieved. We have stripped out pointless bureaucracy. The number of managers more than doubled under Labour, but we have cut their number by more than 5,000, and we have increased the number of doctors in the NHS by more than 1,500. The Bill includes measures to abolish primary care trusts and strategic health authorities, but in the meantime we have clustered PCTs and SHAs together.

We are reducing the cost of bureaucracy in the NHS not only because it is necessary to do so. The transfer to clinically led commissioning in the NHS, for which there is a very good case of course, also involves reducing such costs. As the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), has frequently made clear, as part of the transfer process we will deliver £4.5 billion in savings in administration costs this year across the national health service. The transition itself involves costs of course, but they will be recovered by the end of 2012-13, and by the end of the Parliament we will have gone on to save more than £4.5 billion in total.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No.

Productivity fell in every single year that Labour was in charge of the NHS. However, according to the Audit Commission, in the last year—2010-11—we saved £4.3 billion. As the deputy chief executive of the NHS has reported, PCTs are intending to save a further £5.9 billion in 2011-12. Contrary to what the right hon. Member for Leigh repeatedly said, the NHS is not failing to deliver on the quality, innovation, productivity and prevention challenge; it is on target to meet that challenge. The modernisation that is at the heart of the Bill and the White Paper is not about frustrating the NHS in that endeavour; it is about enabling it to meet the QIPP challenge.

Last summer, I announced that we would be measuring mixed-sex accommodation and then driving down the extent to which patients were put in such accommodation when they should not have been. The right hon. Gentleman said at the time:

“This hollow announcement is an attempt by Mr Lansley to claim credit for something Labour has done”.

That is absolutely wrong. The evidence showed that almost 150,000 patients a year were being placed in mixed-sex accommodation in breach of the rules. We ensured that figures were published for the very first time. The first set of results was published in December, and it showed that in that month alone there were well over 11,000 such patients. Since then, there has been a 91% reduction in the number of patients put into mixed-sex accommodation. The right hon. Gentleman was prepared to see issues of care, service and standards in the NHS covered up. We are determined to shine a light on where the NHS can, and should, improve its performance; we are determined to enable the NHS to do so and to challenge it wherever it is not doing so.

[Chris Leslie]

rose—

[Mr Lansley]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman shortly.

If the public want to know how the NHS in England would have fared under Labour since the last general election, they should look across the border at what has happened in Wales—I am not sure whether any Members representing Welsh constituencies are present. We are protecting the NHS and increasing its budget in real terms. However, I have brought along to the Chamber a report by the Auditor General for Wales that was published just a few days ago, on 14 October 2011. If I could, I would enter it in evidence, but I can at least hold it up in order to show Members a series of bar charts. They demonstrate that in England there is real-terms growth in the NHS, in Northern Ireland there is small real-terms growth that is unevenly distributed across the years, in Scotland there is tiny real-terms growth, and in Wales there is a large downward curve, which shows the reduction in real-terms spending on the NHS in Wales. Wales is the only part of the UK that is run by Labour, and there are real-terms cuts in the NHS budget there.

[Chris Leslie]

The right hon. Gentleman must know that “real terms” means taking account of inflation. For the record, can he tell the House what the retail prices index was for the last month for which figures are available? That will give us a sense of what “real terms” ought to mean in this context.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman is a shadow Treasury Minister, so he must know that the expression “real terms” has consistently been used in relation to the GDP deflator, which is independently estimated by the Office for Budget Responsibility. That is the basis on which we do these calculations, so the Wales Audit Office will have calculated the real-terms changes in budgets in each of the countries of the United Kingdom on that basis. John Appleby from the King’s Fund has estimated an 8.3% real-terms cut in the NHS budget in Labour Wales.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

The Secretary of State is, justifiably, giving a robust performance. He said that his job is to shine a light into the NHS to make sure there is a better service for patients. Can he assure us that the recent findings about the care of the elderly in our hospitals and the recommendations of the Cavendish report on that issue will receive the Department’s full attention, as that is one of the areas where the NHS often fails to fulfil the expectations of patients and their families?

[Mr Lansley]

I agree with my right hon. Friend, and I appreciated the opportunity to talk with Camilla Cavendish and to read much of what she has written.

In January, I asked the Care Quality Commission to undertake dignity and nutrition inspections. They were nurse-led, unannounced inspections across NHS hospitals. The reasons for doing so were clear. I do not say this to denigrate the NHS, but many of us were concerned about two issues. First, although patients admitted to hospitals might get very good clinical care, the standards of personal care were often not as good as they should be, and they were seriously deficient in some cases. Secondly, the last Labour Government had star ratings for hospitals, the net effect of which was as follows. On the Healthcare Commission website, there would be a green dot against a hospital, which was often taken to mean, “This hospital is fine.” However, we all knew that some hospitals had tremendous reputations and world-beating clinical care in some respects and some wards where care was fantastic, but that care in neighbouring wards could be seriously deficient. The dignity and nutrition inspections have addressed that.

The CQC will follow up wherever it has found concerns. In addition, it will undertake similar unannounced inspections of learning disability services and there will be 500 unannounced inspections of care homes, to seek out and expose poor performance or poor care in those areas—and, I hope, demonstrate where good care is provided. There will be an additional follow-up inspection of a further 50 NHS hospitals.

[Simon Hughes]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. May I raise a linked point? One of the issues most frequently raised with me both in my constituency and elsewhere is that families and patients often do not feel that they have consistent contact with just one person who is responsible for the management of the care in a hospital. Instead, there is a range of people whom they do not know, except for what is printed on their name badges. They know the consultant, but they do not know who is responsible on a day-to-day basis for the delivery of 24-hour care. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that that is also on his agenda?

[Mr Lansley]

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. That is not only the case in hospitals, where people can sometimes ask, “Under whose care is my husband?” It is also especially true in community care. I hope that there will be more integrated services in the community, but although there may be a range of providers, there must be an integrated service with a clear line of accountability.

[Rosie Cooper]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Lansley]

No, as I need to conclude my speech. [Interruption.] I am sure what the hon. Lady says is true.

The NHS in Wales is not cutting its budget because everything is going well. Labour Members are fond of citing waiting times, but the latest figures on waiting times show that in England 90.4% of admitted patients and 97.3% of non-admitted patients were referred to treatment within 18 weeks, whereas the figures for Wales are 67.6% and only 74% respectively.

Let me tell the House about infection rates. In 2007, the clostridium difficile mortality rates in England and Wales were similar—in fact, the rate was slightly higher in England. However, in the latest year for which figures are available there were 23.4 deaths per million for men and 23.5 deaths per million for women in England, whereas the figures for Wales were 54.9 deaths per million for men and 59.5 deaths per million for women, so the level in Wales is more than twice that in England. In four years, the gap has widened to the point where Wales has double the number of deaths from C. diff infections relative to England. Less money, less innovation and less good care is what has been happening in Wales under a Labour Government.

I must make it clear that we are going to put patients at the heart of the NHS. We are going to focus on the NHS delivering excellent care every time. Labour focused on the targets and the averages, and never got to the place of really caring about the specifics. A patient about to go into hospital for knee replacement surgery does not want to know about the national figure; they want to know about their hospital, their ward and what will happen to them. The same is true for mixed-sex accommodation. Labour turned a blind eye to variation in performance. We are going to open it up to clinical and public scrutiny, so that we can reward and celebrate achievement and excellence across the service, and shine a light on poor performance.

[Joan Ruddock]

Two weeks ago, I had an operation in Guy’s hospital. Because of possible complications, I had to ask my consultant directly, “Would you advise me to go ahead or not?” He advised me to do so, and I had complete trust in him. He was not thinking about whether he had to fulfil a quota, whether there was competitiveness in his hospital or his department, or whether a private patient would be preferred in the bed that I was to occupy. He was someone I could trust. In the health service that the Secretary of State proposes in his Bill, I could never have that confidence. I ask him please to abandon this Bill.

[Mr Lansley]

The right hon. Lady is simply wrong. There is nothing in the legislation that will do anything other than support clinicians to exercise their judgments in order to deliver the best care for their patients. It was under her Government, when people were told to pursue 18-week targets, that managers were literally walking in to speak to consultants who were about to do waiting lists and surgery lists and telling them that, because of the 18-week target, they had to treat a certain patient rather than another whose interests would mean that they would be seen first. So I will not take any lectures about that. We are going to put clinicians at the heart of delivering care and put patients at the heart of the service that is delivered.

The Labour motion does not reflect reality. It is based on a misleading set of interpretations and representations. Labour Members have a very short memory, but I am afraid that they have left us a shocking legacy. The motion contains no appreciation of the challenges the NHS faces, no appreciation of the care the NHS has provided to patients day in, day out over the past year, and no vision of how the NHS can be better in the future. Modernisation of the NHS will deliver an NHS that we can rely on for future generations, that is based on need, not ability to pay, and that is able to deliver the best outcomes for patients. I urge the House to reject the motion.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Just before I call the next speaker, I suggest that we have an eight-minute limit. I want to get all the speakers in, as I do not want anyone to be disappointed.

14:13

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

Although the words “shocking legacy” are ringing in my ears, I find it difficult to believe them, given Labour’s legacy on the NHS compared with what it inherited in 1997. Expenditure was increased from £30 billion in 1997 to £103 billion when we left office, and we had record patient satisfaction ratings. It beggars belief that that can be considered a shocking legacy.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

rose—

[Grahame M. Morris]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will continue my introduction and give way in a moment.

I wish to recognise the contribution of the NHS staff, who are the source of great pride. They have done such a great job, and continue to do so, even in difficult circumstances, in delivering the very high levels of patient satisfaction reported in the recent surveys.

In November 2010, the Backbench Business Committee selected my application for a debate on the impact of the comprehensive spending review on the Department of Health, the NHS and public health. So many of the issues that have been raised are implanted in my mind, not least the loss of the funding for a new hospital that would have served many of my constituents in the south of Easington. I am concerned about the particular reference that has been made to that and I would be grateful if the Secretary of State or the Minister would deal with that in their closing remarks. A value-for-money assessment was made by both the Department of Health and the Treasury and it was found that the best way to take forward that proposal was with public funding, rather than through the private finance initiative route. The disingenuous position repeated by those on the Government Benches, including the charges laid against the Labour Opposition about our support for PFI, has been compounded. I remind right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches that in the case of the new hospital planned for my area we were directed to the PFI route, despite the criticism that has come from the Secretary of State and other Members on the Government Benches.

I am pleased that the motion focuses on the failed personal pledges of both the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State. A key promise was made to increase real-terms expenditure on the NHS, but it is another broken promise. It is probably the most fundamental one, as the NHS is such a beloved institution of the whole British public. Before the election, the Conservatives promised to protect the NHS and give it a real-terms budget increase year on year. The coalition document promised a 0.4% real-terms budget increase for the NHS over the spending review period.

I am sure that we all saw the expensive billboards before the election, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) referred. They showed the Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, saying:

“I’ll cut the deficit, not the NHS.”

That was not really about rebranding the NHS; it was more an exercise in conning the British public. Whereas Labour gave a guarantee to protect the front line of the NHS, the Health Secretary, then the shadow Health Secretary, saw a cynical opportunity to give a guarantee on spending. We now know from the Treasury’s own figures that that guarantee was false: it is a promise that has been broken. It was a guarantee that went against all the Tory mantra. We are constantly told by the Conservative party that public service delivery is not about how much we spend but about how we spend it—in fact, we heard that today from the Prime Minister in relation to police numbers. However, the Tory promise was never about protecting the NHS; it was about protecting the Tory brand.

Even the Tories’ biggest backers realise that the promise to increase funding on the NHS was a con. The Secretary of State cited James Purnell a little earlier, so perhaps I might cite Fraser Nelson, who is not a well-known socialist—he writes for The Spectator and is a right-wing commentator. He says:

“It has become clear now that there was a cynical competition to dupe the British public into believing that if they voted Tory at the General Election, the NHS would be safe.”

After 13 years of unprecedented rises in the NHS budget under Labour, and efficiency measures such as those on procurement—

[Henry Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about the 13 years under the previous Labour Government. I do not know what happened in his constituency, but my constituency lost accident and emergency provision, and we lost maternity provision. That was the direct consequence of Labour’s Department of Health.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I think we saw an unprecedented period of growth with the building of new hospitals and new facilities. I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and what he is going through with the Chase Farm downgrading, because in my area the Hartlepool accident and emergency facility is also being downgraded to an urgent treatment centre. That is a cause of consternation among the public.

[Mr Lansley]

That was a Labour plan.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Well, it is being done under the Secretary of State’s Administration when an impression was given that there would be a moratorium and that we would not face such downgrading and closures. That was clearly a con that was sold to the public, so I do not accept the contention that the hon. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) has put forward.

Let me press on, because time is limited. The NHS is hurting under this Government and these reckless reforms. On the promises for a real-terms increase, we know that health inflation has surged and that the spending power of the NHS is going down, so will the Minister now admit that the NHS is receiving a real-terms cut? This is not just about the NHS being held hostage to inflation. It is facing real financial pressures on the front line—which Labour promised to protect—for a number of reasons including the Government’s decision to push through this latest reorganisation, which is the biggest the NHS has ever faced, at the same time as pushing through £20 billion-worth of efficiency savings. The figure of £1 billion a year is being taken from the NHS’s existing budgets to meet the growing and ever-increasing costs of social care. The Select Committee on Health is now looking into that issue and I hope that we are able to come forward with some positive ideas that the Minister will consider.

[Joan Ruddock]

My hon. Friend heard the Secretary of State’s responses to my questions. I know that my hon. Friend served on the Committee considering the Health and Social Care Bill. Will he confirm that competitiveness is still at the heart of that Bill and that the cap on private patients in the NHS is being removed from hospitals?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am grateful for that intervention from my right hon. Friend and I should like to place on record, because the Secretary of State did not take the opportunity to do so, that the cap on private patient work, which had been set at 5%, is to be raised by the Bill. That must have a detrimental impact on the NHS in general, and on non-private patients, as resources are directed to the private sector and private patients.

[Dr Poulter]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I shall not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind, because I do not think I will get any injury time if I do so and I have rather a lot to get through.

I have mentioned the transfer of resources from the NHS budget to meet the growing costs of social care. We have also discovered, from evidence that was given to the Select Committee, that there has been an underspend of almost £2 billion—much of it from the capital budget, with some of it, presumably, being saved by cancelling the new hospital that was to serve my area. Meanwhile many NHS trusts are sitting on hundreds of millions of pounds of debt, and figures produced by the Department of Health show that six large NHS trusts in London are predicting year-end deficits of £170 million. The pressures on the system are enormous and will inevitably show through in reductions in services, having an impact on the front line.

The reductions in tariffs for operations and the further pressures in that area will also mean that foundation and NHS acute trusts will bear the brunt of financial pressures within the system. Again, that means that the buck and the spotlight of transparency are being passed away from the Secretary of State to the NHS Commissioning Board, although he might have to reconsider that after last night’s Lords amendments.

Another area of pressure in the NHS comes from the huge redundancy costs being incurred as a consequence of the premature closure of primary care trusts and strategic health authorities, which is estimated to cost the taxpayer more than £1 billion. The opening up of the NHS entirely to the private sector, and the prospect of the £103 billion NHS budget being taken out of the public sector and placed within the remit of shareholders in private health care companies, is anathema to the majority of the British public. The Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) is cringing, but the majority of the British public are cringing at the thought of this proposal.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order.

14:19

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

It is remarkable that we are having this debate today. As the Secretary of State has said, the Opposition’s motion is a remarkable own goal, especially as it has been confirmed that the Government will be increasing funds in real terms by 0.4% over the course of this Parliament. The shadow Secretary of State is shaking his head, but that will mean an extra £12.5 billion, which he has opposed today. It also remarkable that we have had confirmation from him of his comments in The Guardian on 16 June 2010, when he stated:

“It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms within the overall financial envelope”.

He agreed with that and I am delighted that he has put that on the record now that he has a second bite of the cherry, as the shadow Secretary of State for Health. He had an opportunity to make amends, and I thought he would, but unfortunately he has not. He also stated in the New Statesman on 22 July 2010:

“They’re not ring-fencing it. They’re increasing it.”

He was talking about the NHS budget and the fact that the Government were increasing it.

We have heard from the Secretary of State today that if there is an underspend, it has come entirely from the central departmental budgets. What is wrong with that? Does the shadow Secretary of State disagree that we might have cut down on costs such as the £115,759 he spent on a personal chauffeur during his time as Secretary of State? Does he oppose an underspend, given that during his time at the Department it spent £3.65 million on almost 26,000 first-class rail tickets? We have slashed that cost by more than 70%. Does he deny that he and the Department spent £1.7 million on luxury hotels during his time there? What is wrong with cutting such spending? What is wrong with the fact that Ministers are no longer using hotels such as the Hotel President Wilson in Geneva as they did in 2008 when the bill was £548.87 a night? If we are making those cuts to the central budget, I quite welcome our doing so.

[Barbara Keeley]

I wonder that the hon. Gentleman is not more worried about issues such as those I raised earlier. The real cuts being experienced in my constituency are in NHS walk-in centres and in the active management of long-term conditions. That is a real downgrading of patient care. I am surprised that he is bringing up these expenses; I think he should focus on what is happening in the NHS.

[Chris Skidmore]

I entirely agree that we need to integrate better social care in the NHS, and part of the reason why we have £2 billion going into social care is to tackle that problem. It is interesting that the hon. Lady does not deny that those spends have happened and that she does not apologise for the fact that the previous Government made those spends. Personally, I think they are a disgrace. Obviously, Opposition Members do not have a problem with spending £600 on a hotel in Switzerland, but I do. I say to the shadow Secretary of State, “Don’t build a greenhouse and then throw stones out of it.” Let us remember that it was the Labour party that gave us an NHS IT system at a cost of £12.7 billion—450% more than the original cost. It was the Labour party that gave us private finance initiative deals that were so badly drafted that they were worth £11.4 billion but cost £65 billion to pay off. What did the shadow Secretary of State say when he was the Secretary of State?

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I hope that my intervention allows him to cool his jets a little. One cannot make a case about this by arguing about minutiae. Will he accept that for many of us the reality of the NHS is what we see at Central Middlesex hospital, where somebody turns up on a Monday to be told that the accident and emergency department closed on the previous Friday and has now been rebranded without there having been any democratic input? If one has any complaints about that, however, one should not even bother trying to find a person to speak to. That is the reality. The NHS is over-commercialised and is losing touch with its roots.

[Chris Skidmore]

The hon. Gentleman will regret his comments. We have to pay back £65 billion on PFI deals that were originally signed for £11 billion—that ain’t minutiae. Many constituents are concerned about the waste that took place under the previous Government.

In 1997, there were 23,400 managers. That has gone up to 42,500. We are making a genuine attempt to tackle the problem. I could go on, but I will put the party politics aside.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on the National Audit Office report in relation to savings that could be made from NHS procurement? Does he think that fragmenting the NHS will assist that or hinder it?

[Chris Skidmore]

We are spending £1 billion more than we should on procurement because of the lack of consistency across the NHS, delivered principally by the previous Government. That is one area in which we could make vital savings. The NHS needs to change. Your boss, the Leader of the Opposition, said:

“To protect the NHS is to change it”

and we need to do so. The reforms that we are bringing in are essential if we are to deliver savings and also to ensure that the NHS survives when our ageing population means there will be twice as many 85-year-olds by 2030.

We need to reform the NHS and we do so in the spirit of what Tony Blair and new Labour put forward. Julian Le Grand, Tony Blair’s key adviser, said that the reforms were

“evolutionary, not revolutionary: a logical, sensible extension of those put in place by Tony Blair”.

When I asked him in the Health Committee whether this is what Blair would have done, he said: “Absolutely. Blair ‘would have tried’ to get these reforms through, but I imagine the left of his party may have prevented him from doing so.”

[Joan Ruddock]

How does the hon. Gentleman square his enthusiasm for all these reforms with the Prime Minister’s statement that there would be no top-down reforms of the NHS?

[Chris Skidmore]

We are introducing these reforms principally so that we put power back in the hands of GPs and, above all, patients. We are making these reforms because we have to. The status quo cannot remain—[Interruption.] If the right hon. Lady wants the NHS to continue as it is, fine. If the NHS is to be free at the point of delivery, it needs clinician-led commissioning. That is what we are going to achieve.

[Sarah Newton]

I agree with much of what my hon. Friend says. Does he agree that on such an important subject as the NHS, the people we represent and who sent us here would expect us to be thinking about how we can improve the NHS for patients and for the people who work in it, rather than engaging in this ridiculous tit-for-tat party political scrap that we are seeing this afternoon?

[Chris Skidmore]

I entirely agree. A constituent, a lady who sadly lost her foot through a rare cancer, came to my surgery recently. She is allowed only one type of plastic foot from the NHS and the PCT. She wants what is called an Echelon foot which will allow her to walk up a hill—she is a hill walker—but under the current model she cannot get that alternative foot. By bringing in any qualified provider, we will allow patients and clinicians the freedom to choose for the first time—a choice that was denied under the “any preferred provider” model that the shadow Secretary of State still clings to vainly. We need to ensure that our NHS operates for the 21st century and I hope the reforms will deliver that.

To sum up, I will oppose the motion. It is juvenile—the text could have been written by Adrian Mole. This is about getting away from the politics of debate in the Chamber and giving the NHS back to the professionals and the patients. It is not our NHS; it is their NHS, and we need to ensure that we achieve that aim.

14:33

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State for Health, a brief to which he brings valuable experience. We are going to need every bit of that experience, given what the current Secretary of State is doing to bring the NHS to its knees.

I strongly disagree with my colleague on the Health Committee, the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore). This is not their NHS. This is not your or my NHS. It belongs to the people, all of us. We all have an incredible stake in the NHS. The Secretary of State and the Government play with it, with their reputation and with patients’ needs at their peril. I believe your policy will fundamentally damage the NHS—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. May I remind the House not to use the word “you”? Members speak through the Chair and should use the third person, please.

[Rosie Cooper]

Forgive me. I have a great propensity to do that. I believe passionately in the NHS and I take this all very personally. I apologise.

The Government’s policy will fundamentally damage the health service in terms of both the quality of care available to patients and the founding principles of the NHS. The more we debate Government health policy, the less the Secretary of State seems to be listening, whether to Opposition Members, medical professionals, patients, patient groups or constituents.

I might go further and say that I now believe the Secretary of State occupies a parallel universe—a universe where everyone wholeheartedly supports his policy and believes him when he says that there is real-terms growth in NHS spending, a universe where waiting times are not increasing, people are not being refused treatments, bed-blocking is not happening because of pressure on the social care system, a universe where he never discussed the issue of re-banding of nurses with the Royal College of Nursing.

Unfortunately, while the Secretary of State, ably supported by the Prime Minister, is off in that parallel universe, which we shall call delusional, the rest of us are left facing the terrifying reality of what the Government’s policy means to our constituents and to the national health service. We must disregard the rhetoric and the myth-making of the Conservative party as it seeks to demonstrate that it has changed when it comes to the NHS. Sadly for the health service, the Conservatives have not changed at all.

I have spoken repeatedly about the Prime Minister’s clear promises to the British people—one was that there would be no more pointless top-down reorganisation. He even said:

“When your family relies on the NHS all the time—day after day, night after night—you know how precious it is”.

How quickly those words were forgotten. Michael Portillo comments on the BBC’s “This Week” spoke volumes. He could not have made it clearer that the Government meant to misrepresent their position and mislead their voters. He said:

“They did not believe they could win if they told you what they were going to do.”

My fear is that their broken promises are leading us headlong into a broken NHS.

There is much I could say about how disgracefully the Government started to change NHS structures without the consent of the people or the House. Because of those broken promises, a failure to secure a clear mandate for the reforms from the British public, and an abject failure to secure support from the clinicians and the medical profession, we are left in the present mess. I hear time and again that the doctors, the nurses and the professionals are all behind the Government. Where are they? They are shouting loud and clear, “We’re not with you.”

[Henry Smith]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Rosie Cooper]

I fell for that last time and did not get to the end of what I had to say.

I will not go on about the rest of the problems that I see with the Bill—the financial challenge, the fact that we are open to European competition regulation, or the fact that the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board believes the Bill is unintelligible. I believe the Bill has been driven forward as an ideological exercise, rather than by an ideological desire to improve the quality of health care available.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Rosie Cooper]

Forgive me; I need to get to the end of my speech.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh dealt with the finances and the myth of real-terms growth in the NHS budget. My local trust is being asked to go beyond the 4% savings compounded over the next four years and will be expected to achieve 6% or £8.5 million in this financial year. On top of that, Monitor expects trusts to make a 1% profit. People who have given evidence to the Select Committee have said it is clear that there will need to be hospital closures in order to release money back into the wider health service. We are told that this is all part of managing demand and redesigning pathways—two horrible phrases that appear to be back in vogue.

I want to deal quickly with the re-banding of nurses to reduce budgets, which the Health Secretary appears to have little understanding of. I am sorry he is no longer in his place. He clearly told the Health Committee that he was unaware that re-banding was taking place. His problem is that Janet Davies from the Royal College of Nursing told the Committee that, although the RCN does not release conversations, that issue was clearly discussed. I really worry about that. Does he have a twin he is sending into meetings on his behalf? Does he simply not listen? It would not be the first time. Or is the truth even worse, and should he be described in terms that Mr Speaker would call unparliamentary? The Secretary of State said earlier that he stood by his answers to the Committee. He has also claimed that he did not receive a letter from me, but I can confirm that he received it at 11.57 on 13 October, and I have confirmation from his office.

[Mr Simon Burns]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Rosie Cooper]

I will not.

The point is that even if the Secretary of State was not aware of the re-banding, as he claims, that speaks volumes about how out of touch he is with the hard-working staff he is supposed to represent. Perhaps he would like to remove himself from his parallel universe—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I call John Pugh.

14:41

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

May I take it as read that the NHS will struggle to find the £20 billion savings agreed in the Labour Budget? May I take it as read that that will impact on services and that people will notice and probably blame this Government’s legislation regardless of whether or not it compounds the problem? The debate we have been having on how NHS spending is or is not to be ring-fenced is almost a sideshow, compared with the huge challenge that is consistently emphasised by the Chairman of the Health Committee.

I draw Members’ attention to the fact that serious financial trouble is already breaking out in the acute sector. Seven of the 19 foundation trusts in the north-west have a red light, and that region is one of the more stable ones that we could consider. I cannot see any obvious happy endings, even without the Bill. Without the Bill we would still have competition by price, competition law would still be applicable, PCTs would still be capable of looking for the lowest common denominator and we would still have an unaccountable NHS.

To add to the general misery I am trying to perpetuate, on Saturday I had a severe abscess on my tooth, which was extraordinarily painful and unpleasant. After taking large doses of ibuprofen, which gave me a little relief for an hour, and my face being swollen and peculiar—a little more peculiar than it currently is—I sat up in bed in the middle of the night with my iPad looking up home remedies on the internet—cloves, bicarbonate of soda and so on. I found forums populated by desperate sufferers looking for a fix. What surprised me most were the American contributors, a considerable number of whom were obviously afraid to go to a dentist, despite the fact that the US is a rich country with no shortage of good dentists. They were settling for severe and continuous pain or for hit-and-miss experimentation, rather than risking debt and bankruptcy. Thankfully, I was in the UK and we have the NHS. On Sunday night, almost unbelievably, I was seen at 6.15 by an emergency dentist, a Polish dentist at the former Litherland town hall, which is now a busy Sefton NHS walk-in centre with a pharmacy attached—a service I did not know existed prior to these events.

Thankfully, the NHS is an institution built on solidarity. Through the state, we guarantee by our taxes each other treatment according to need and irrespective of means. It is a moral compact and Governments have been prepared to carry out that compact by ensuring that the services that are needed exist. Historically, they have done this in two ways: first, by buying services on our behalf; and secondly by providing services directly on our behalf. Governments and the people working in the NHS have done this relatively well and relatively efficiently, as the Wanless report and the Commonwealth Fund report have rigorously and exhaustively demonstrated. That is indisputable.

What is strange about recent developments is the Government shying away from their role as a provider of health care. The original debate was over the renouncing of the Secretary of State’s role as a provider, but we can also see the cutting loose of all hospitals as free-standing foundation trusts; the blurring of boundaries between NHS providers and other sorts of providers, with NHS providers doing more private work and the private sector doing more public work; the forcing—genuine forcing in some places—of non-hospital staff working for the NHS to become independent social enterprises; the neutrality of the Department of Health on whether individual NHS providers or provider networks survive, a neutrality that will be severely tested in the months to come; and the willingness to make NHS provision contestable as a matter of principle, rather than one of pragmatism. Not many people have noticed the ending of the Secretary of State’s powers to create a new foundation trust or hospital post-2015. We might have seen the last new NHS hospital opened by a Secretary of State in this country.

I found the Secretary of State’s unwillingness to stick to the wording of the Health Act 2006 slightly bizarre, if only because that would easily have brought peace, and may have brought peace now, depending on what exactly has happened in the House of Lords. In a sense, we all know that the Secretary of State does not, has not and cannot provide all the services himself and should not try to micro-manage. I did not seriously expect him to turn up at Litherland town hall on Sunday—visions of Marathon Man come before me. What concerns me is the ideological presumption that the Secretary of State should only be a purchaser or commissioner. There is a good reason for that concern; it is only possible to purchase in a market what that market offers. Markets are splendid things, offering choice and variety, but they do not have a guarantee that people will get what they are entitled to, and they do not ensure that health inequalities, or any sort of inequality, can be eroded, and they do not guarantee that public resources are spent and used in the most efficient way. They may lead to that, but not necessarily. Direct state provision is often a better option.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

I respect my hon. Friend’s point of view, but surely what matters is quality of care for patients, which can be provided as well in the private sector as it can in the public sector, and it is not necessarily guaranteed in the public sector, as events at the Mid Staffordshire hospital have shown.

[John Pugh]

I did not say that it was guaranteed by the public sector. That is not the point I was making at all. Guaranteeing entitlement, addressing inequalities and ensuring public value are, to be blunt, largely the point of the NHS. I can quite understand—I partly regret it—that a degree of cynicism might exist about the public service ethos, and a sort of nostalgic support for that can sometimes be in place when the reality is that it is not there. There is doubt about its true impact and people inside and outside the NHS sometimes show that degree of cynicism, which is regrettable. I can understand the worry that NHS providers can become lax or inefficient or unambitious if they are not challenged, but the answer to that is not necessarily or obviously to get out of the provision business full stop, embrace the market, set up strange control markets with huge transactional costs, strange tariffs and the multiplicity of bean counters that go along with that. Of course there is also greater legal complexity. The end result of that is something that has few of the virtues of a real market and most of the vices. The Labour Government were to some extent part and parcel of producing such a market. I see no reason to make the state just a purchaser and never a provider, and it is not obvious to me that the answer is to hand over the money to one set of providers, the GPs, particularly if the pretext for doing so is to harden the commissioner-provider split, because GPs are providers.

In conclusion, publicly funded provision—public service infused with the right ethos—is often the most efficient and effective option, provided that it is coupled with genuine, local and rigorous accountability. That is what happens in many successful systems, such as Sweden’s, and it is a liberal solution. So far, there is not enough of it, although the Bill makes laudable moves in that direction, with health and wellbeing boards and so on, but this strange, unargued and ideological withdrawal from provision or interest in provision taints everything and leaks poison into the system—like an abscess.

14:50

[Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

I support the motion on the Order Paper this afternoon, and I am very sorry that the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) has left his seat, because he was coming out with a load of reasons why the NHS is in the mess it is in now, saying that it was to do with the previous Labour Government. He mentioned Adrian Mole, but I would have advised him not to use such arguments when, in the same breath, he was talking about the money that was spent on the NHS IT programme. It was nowhere near the £12 billion that he mentioned. People would be wise to look at the IT system, because it was ambitious in terms of creating a national database, and given my experience on the Health Committee that looked at the issue in the previous Parliament, I must say that if we want to make the national health service efficient, we will do so with IT. Currently, there are few programmes that manage people with long-term conditions, yet they consume between 75% and 80% of the moneys spent on the NHS, so batting arguments around on that basis, as the current Government did in opposition in relation to IT will not make health care better or the national health service more efficient for people in this country.

Members have mentioned three issues with the coalition agreement. I am going to leave the one on finance as it stands, because there is an argument about the Treasury figures. We will see in the next year or two, if the next election is in 2015, exactly where the issue goes, and then we will be able to comment a little more than we are able to at the moment.

On moratoriums, I saw a very embarrassed Secretary of State at the Dispatch Box today, and I am going to be consistent, because when I was Chair of the Health Committee and sitting on the Government Benches, I criticised on two occasions then Government Front Benchers for such stunts. I did not criticise Health Ministers, but I did make one criticism in a closed place, after a Secretary of State—not for Health, but a Scottish Member who no longer sits in the House—stood on the picket line against the closure of a hospital in Scotland near his constituency.

Another criticism I made was of a Member—who is still in the House but, again, not a Health Minister—who was against changes to health care in Greater Manchester. I was asked by the media—I think it was the BBC—and I said that, if the issue is being looked at locally and it is recommended that such reconfiguration will improve patient services, it should go ahead and politicians should not speak out against it. I then received the quickest response I have ever had on any issue from No 10 Downing street, but I stick to what I said then: the matter had been looked at locally.

I listened to the Secretary of State—I am sorry he is not in his place now—when he talked about stopping top-down decision making and letting local commissioners have a look at the clinical evidence and safety aspects, but the independent review panel has been looking at those matters for years. The interference of people at the top has been the real issue.

Politicians have to get away from the idea that they must defend the national health service in its current configuration at all costs. That will not improve it—[Interruption.] The Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) laughs, but I am talking to him, and to the Secretary of State who stood holding up placards saying things would not happen which have happened. We should not do that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has the image of that in his hand, but this is a lesson for all people in politics.

When the Health Committee in the previous Parliament looked at NHS deficits, it found that many years ago the major problem with deficits was in the east of England, because many small parts of the NHS were spread around marginal seats that had been fought for one way or another over the previous 20 or 30 years. That level of political interference does nothing for patient care. I am being even-handed in saying that, and I genuinely believe it.

I am going to move on from moratoriums. Ministers put well their arguments on those issues when they were in opposition, but now, given the decisions they are having to take in government, they are having to eat humble pie. It serves them right, as it served the last lot right.

I want to go on to the coalition agreement’s statement that there will be no top-down reorganisation in the national health service, because this current reorganisation is the worst, the biggest and the most savage. It has been defended again today on the basis, as the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) said, that GPs are going to be in charge, but they are going to get about £80 billion, and they are small, private, independent contractors, so the idea that there will not be any conflict of interest in some of the work that is going to take place is nonsense. It will be a matter for the courts.

I was also amazed when the hon. Gentleman said that we have competition now inside the national health service, because we do not in clinical services, and he will have to explain why there are 97 clauses in the Health and Social Care Bill which put competition law in clinical services on to the statue book of this land. Can somebody find me one country in the European Union which has competition law in clinical services? I have found none.

I sat on the Public Bill Committee for six months, and, on Third Reading, I asked the Minister who will make the winding-up speech today—I will ask him again, because I have to sit down in a couple of minutes—what the Competition Commission and the Office of Fair Trading had got to do with the merger of national health service trusts. That provision is written into the Bill, and it was not changed when the future forum looked at it; indeed, of the 97 clauses, only seven were changed. The Minister has not answered that question, and I asked Professor Steve Field when he went back to the Public Bill Committee what that had to do with the merger of NHS trusts.

I ask the Minister to answer this question when he winds up the debate. What have the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission got to do with the merger of national health service trusts? I await the answer. I am fed up of asking the question.

The Secretary of State says, “We’re abolishing PCTs,” and indeed we are, but what PCTs do will be taken over by not one body but five different ones: clinical commissioning groups, health and wellbeing boards, clinical senates, the NHS Commissioning Board and local authorities—and that is how we get rid of bureaucracy! That is what the Secretary of State said at the Dispatch Box just a while ago, but five different organisations—some of them new—are going to be involved.

This is the biggest mistake that any Government have made with the NHS since it was brought in 60 years ago, and this Government would be well advised to take the Bill away and get on with serving the nation’s health care needs, not bringing in this competition law, which will be the end of the NHS as we know it.

14:58

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron). He would be surprised if I agreed with everything he said, but he made some good points in the first half of his speech.

Today’s debate has been a wasted opportunity for the Opposition, because nothing positive has come out of it—nothing about how we will better look after patients or how we will address very real needs in all our constituencies. There has been a lot of mud-slinging but very little talk about what will benefit patients and how we will deliver a patient-centred NHS.

That is to the detriment of the Opposition and to the way in which they have addressed the motion. It is disingenuous of Opposition Members to attack the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Health, and to try to give the impression that my right hon. Friends do not care about the NHS. All politicians and, I believe, everyone in the country care about the NHS, but we have slightly different views about how the service should be run.

I have a great deal of time for the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) and I like her very much on a personal level, but some of her points were wrong. In particular, it was wrong to bring the Prime Minister’s personal experience into the debate. He had a difficult family circumstance, and of course someone with that background will understand the NHS very well.

[Rosie Cooper]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

The hon. Lady did not make her point very well, and she did not allow me to intervene on her. I am sure that the Minister will address the points that she made about the letter.

[Mr Simon Burns]

It might be useful at this stage to clear up the point about the letter. The hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) said that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had not replied to her letter, as though it had been sent months ago. It was dated 12 October, so I presume that it arrived in the Department of Health on 13 or 14 October, about 12 or 13 days ago. Hon. Members know that the guidelines, which the Department rigorously keeps to, state that it may take up to 20 days to receive a response. My right hon. Friend has not been discourteous, and the hon. Lady will receive a reply within the time scale.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying an earlier point.

I will not engage in mud-slinging, but will talk about what hon. Members on both sides of the House want to emerge from the NHS. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) was absolutely right that some service reconfiguration is necessary to deliver services in communities, improve community care and build an integrated health service with integrated health care. The right hon. Gentleman spoke specifically about an integrated system and better integrating adult social care, especially for the elderly, with current NHS providers, breaking down some of the silos between primary care, the hospital sector, and adult social services.

[Barbara Keeley]

Was the hon. Gentleman as concerned as I was at the Select Committee on Health on Tuesday when I asked Richard Humphries of the King’s Fund how the Health and Social Care Bill will impact on integrated commissioning? Richard Humphries said that there is a danger to integration because people are leaving PCTs, working relationships are being disrupted and broken up, and partnerships are being disrupted. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said, we face years of disruption. That is the danger. Progress on the integration agenda was slow, but it is chaotic now.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Any period of transition will be difficult, and must be managed. Will the mechanisms and bodies that the Health and Social Care Bill will put in place be better able to deliver community-focused, integrated care than the existing system? I want to consider two matters that we will come to later: health and wellbeing boards, and basing commissioning fundamentally in the community. Both are good mechanisms for delivering better integrated care, and I will return to that.

We have too many silos in the NHS. The primary care sector often does not integrate with the secondary care sector as well as we would like. For example, hospitals are paid by results, but they have no financial incentive to ensure that they prevent inappropriate hospital admissions. We talk about better looking after the frail elderly and about ensuring that we prevent people with mental health problems from reaching crisis point and having to be admitted, but there are no financial incentives and drivers in the system to ensure that that is achieved to the extent we would like. A and E admissions in many hospitals are rising year on year—in rural areas that is partly because we do not have an adequate out-of-hours GP service—and far too often the frail elderly are not properly supported in the community.

If we put the majority of commissioning into the community with local commissioning boards, that will provide a more integrated and joined-up approach to local commissioning, which will undoubtedly help to prevent inappropriate admissions. We no longer want an NHS in which people with mental health problems or the elderly present in crisis because they have not been supported in the community. That must be the focus of care, and the focus of delivery of services.

[Sarah Newton]

I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of integrating social care and the NHS. I want to share with him the good, concrete steps that are being taken in Cornwall, where we have a pilot health and wellbeing board, and the beginning of integration. That has not happened before in Cornwall, and we are about to have the first joint commissioning of services. That is the way forward to improve patient experience in the NHS.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank my hon. Friend for a helpful intervention, which makes the point very well that we need integration through community-based commissioning.

The other key factor is how better to integrate adult social care—the right hon. Member for Leigh made the point, as did the Secretary of State—into the current NHS system. At the moment, integration of services is sometimes variable. There is a good example in Torbay of a more integrated system, but what are the Government proposing that will at least facilitate the integration of services? Local health and wellbeing boards are definitely a step in the right direction because for the first time they will bring together adult social care from local authorities with housing providers, the NHS, and primary and secondary care. That must be a step in the right direction for delivering the integrated care that we all want. It will help to provide more community-focused care.

I referred to the concern about inappropriate admissions, and the fact that elderly people are not supported in their own homes. The savings in adult social care from doing things well are NHS savings, but at the moment there are different cultures in two different organisations, which do not always talk to each other in different parts of the country, and that will not benefit patients. Bringing people together on a health and wellbeing board must be good for patients and integrated care.

For all those reasons, I hope that we will have more positive Opposition day debates on the NHS, and I hope that the Opposition will at least concede that some good things are happening as a result of health care reform.

15:07

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter). I do not want to impugn his integrity, or to suggest that what he wants for the NHS is not exactly what I want. The issue is how we do that. Unfortunately, some unhelpful remarks were made in the run-up to the general election. At the least, they were disingenuous; at worst they were duplicitous. This debate is about trust, and there are serious questions about whether we can trust the Government with our NHS.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has argued that pre-election pledges have been broken, and I want to speak specifically about how that relates to NHS funding. The first broken promise came within months of the general election. We have heard about the posters that we all saw as we went round our constituencies, showing a congenial right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), now the Prime Minister, promising to

“cut the deficit, not the NHS”.

Last October’s spending review seemed to support that position, with a 1.3% increase in NHS resource spending and real-terms growth of what seemed to be 0.4%. The Secretary of State, who is just returning to his place, was unable to answer my question on that. I want to talk abut management costs, because the Department is focusing on that spending. It is important to be clear about management costs in the NHS budget. In 1999, they were less than 3%; in 2010, they were just over 3%. Independent research has shown that, if anything, the NHS is under-managed rather than over-managed. [Interruption.] I can certainly provide evidence for hon. Members.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Debbie Abrahams]

No, I am sorry; I am not going to give way.

We should compare our health care management costs with those in the United States, where they run at over 20%. We need to be very careful about what we are talking about.

[Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

rose—

[Debbie Abrahams]

I am not going to give way—I am sorry.

In this year’s Budget, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s higher inflation forecast meant that NHS spending is now falling in real terms. House of Commons Library calculations show that it will fall by about 1% in real terms over the next four years—a loss in spending power of more than £1 billion by 2015. In the light of the recent inflation figures—[Interruption.] To help hon. Members out, last year’s figure was 5.6% based on the retail prices index. As inflation is at a three-year high, the loss in spending power is likely to be even greater. To keep his election promise, the Prime Minister would have to spend at least £1 billion more than he is doing.

This month’s King’s Fund report on NHS performance shows the effects of these financial pressures on the NHS, with the majority of finance directors saying that they are very or fairly pessimistic about the financial future of their local health economy. The Health and Social Care Bill, which is being debated in the other place, very conveniently sets out ways to help struggling foundation trusts. First, they can borrow money from the City to invest. Secondly, because foundation trusts will have to repay the money they have borrowed by treating more NHS patients and more private patients, they have been helped by the abolition of the cap on private patients’ income. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh said, by raising income in this way they become economic enterprises and open themselves up to part B of EU competition law, so that they have to compete for every tender with private sector companies such as Capita, United Health, and so on. Incidentally, seven trusts, including in the Secretary of State’s constituency, have already said that they will be increasing the private bed cap. There is a private hospital in the Cambridgeshire University hospitals foundation trust area. Finally, when—not if—a foundation trust still ends up in financial meltdown, the Bill’s new failure regime means that they will be able to sell off NHS publicly owned assets to private equity companies. There are direct parallels with Southern Cross.

The impact of that is already being felt in patient care. In addition to what is said by constituents attending my and many of my hon. Friends’ surgeries, the King’s Fund report showed that the proportion of patients waiting more than 18 weeks for treatment has increased nationally. Over a quarter of NHS trusts admitted fewer than 90% of their patients within 18 weeks. In my constituency, Pennine acute hospitals trust is able to treat only 70% of patients within its 18-week targets. That is more than double the number of trusts failing to meet the 18-week target in 2010.

I am afraid, however, that an increase in waiting lists is what the Government want; it is one of the intended consequences of the Bill. This increase in demand is feeding the growing private health care and insurance market. We know from the US that as people on low incomes will be less likely to be able to afford these products, there will be a direct impact on the inequalities that the Secretary of State says that he wants to reduce.

[Barbara Keeley]

My hon. Friend is concerned about health inequalities. Is she as worried as I am about changing the weighting of health inequalities in allocations of funding? In Salford, our experience is that that can push GP practices in deprived areas into the red in their indicative budgets, so they will be cutting down referrals and reconsidering treatments—another way of denigrating and cutting the benefits of services to patients.

[Debbie Abrahams]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will come to that in a minute.

In fact, that is broken promise No. 2. Last week in Health questions, I asked the Secretary of State why, in December last year, he made a political decision, against the advice of the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation to maintain the health inequalities component of PCTs’ funding allocation at 15%, and instead reduced it to 10%. He replied that he had made no decision against the advice of that Committee. However, it is quite clear from last September’s letter to him from the chair of the Committee that that is exactly what he did:

“I would like to draw your attention to ACRA’s position in relation to the health inequalities adjustment. We recommend that the current form of the adjustment is retained”.

The

“current form of the adjustment”

was 15%, and the Secretary of State made a political decision to reduce that. He should be apologising to the House for misleading us in his response to my question. The effect of that reduction is to shift funding from poor health areas to good health areas. The Secretary of State owes an apology to the people in those areas, as well.

I turn to broken promise No. 3. Although the move of public health to local authorities is welcome in principle, the timing could not be worse. Already, we are seeing plans that jeopardise the public health function as they move into local authorities besieged with cuts. As Labour has consistently argued, our health and social care system needs to balance the treatment and care of people who are poorly with creating supportive environments that enable all our citizens to live as healthily as possible for as long as possible—focusing upstream on stopping people falling in rather than on pulling them out further downstream, to use a familiar metaphor. That is absolutely key, but unfortunately the current approach means that it is not going to happen. For example, public health budgets, said to be ring-fenced, are not being ring-fenced. The shadow budgets that were being provided to public health departments for 2012 were supposed to increase from 3.7% to just over 4%, but further analysis showed that that increase was due to merging the public health and drug action team budgets, and not to any new moneys. There was, in effect, no real increase in public health funding.

I anticipate a future broken promise in relation to what the Secretary of State has said about privatisation: I think it will be a case of “Watch this space.”

15:16

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I apologise for missing the opening few minutes of the debate. I was attending the awarding of the gold Duke of Edinburgh’s award to 800 young people in London. It would be marvellous if the press would give as much time to reporting the fantastic achievements of our young people as to the occasional incidents of antisocial behaviour in our communities.

I wish to speak about what I have learned from the experiences that we have had in my constituency regarding our own hospital over the past few years, which have been very troubling for many of us. I will consider these under three headings. First, there is the quality of care and patient safety. As we have learned only recently in the report by the Care Quality Commission, there are problems with quality of care, particularly for elderly people, around the country. That is not the case everywhere; there are some fantastic instances all over the country of very high-quality care. However, it is clearly something that we have to address. I congratulate the Secretary of State on taking the initiative in instigating the CQC report, and I would be very interested to hear from him, as would my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), about what action he proposes to take in the coming years. I know that the Secretary of State takes this matter extremely seriously.

Patient safety is absolutely essential to the NHS. “First, do no harm”—we all know that from the Hippocratic oath. It is given the highest priority, but it does not always seem to happen. Of course, it is a matter of several different things coming together, such as training, levels of staffing and process—but, above all, attitude. What is the Secretary of State doing more to promote the culture of patient safety throughout the NHS? Again, he takes that particularly seriously, and it was mentioned in last year’s White Paper.

Sometimes, the NHS seems almost to rely too much on the complaints system. A complaint happens when it is too late and when the experience has passed: when something unfortunate or tragic has happened, or when care has not been all that it could have been. I would suggest a system that has been taken up by some trusts and particularly in Brighton, whereby people can raise an issue via an urgent phone line while they, their loved one or their relative is in hospital, perhaps to an independent person who can take up the concern, whether it be about malnutrition in hospital, a lack of care or the inaccurate dispensing of drugs. It can then be addressed on the spot rather than after the event, when a complaint goes through the procedure and lots of letters are written and time consumed. I ask the Secretary of State to take that into account.

The second issue is changes in hospital services, which are a huge challenge for many acute hospitals, especially smaller ones. I agree with the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) that care has to be taken out of the hospital setting. That is being done across the country and it is essential to the future of the NHS. However, it has to be done in a careful and measured way, so that the reconfiguration and integration of community services complement each other. It is no good having reconfiguration without integrated community services. I heard the case of a constituent who was waiting in an NHS hospital for several weeks at a cost of about £600 a night when she could have been discharged, because the care services were not available in the community. I am glad to say that Staffordshire county council is working closely with the NHS to produce an integrated care trust. That must be the way forward for most, if not all, of the country.

There is concern in all our communities about emergency services. We have to bear it in mind that the population of this country is likely to rise to 70 million by 2028 according to the Office for National Statistics. We need to ensure that the local development plans that are being toiled over at the moment take into account the increasing population and where it will be in 10 to 20 years’ time, and that we do not just base our services on the current population figures. We must also consider communications and whether it will be possible for somebody to get to an A and E department in a reasonable time if their closest one is downgraded. Those matters need to be taken into account because they are of huge concern to all our constituents. I ask the Minister to respond on that point.

On communication, let us be honest about the pressures on the NHS and say that we will not be able to have everything that we want. We need to talk with our constituents and hear what their priorities are in each area.

Finally, I want to refer to shortages in trained staff. There has been a shortage of A and E consultants at my local hospital. I am grateful to the Department of Health, the primary care trust and the Secretary of State for taking a personal interest in the matter and giving us assistance. However, that is a short-term solution and we need a long-term one. The previous Government did well to start up some new medical schools, including one at Keele university in Staffordshire, but we need to train more people. I understand that up to 30% of NHS doctors come from overseas. We are relying on the medical training of other countries, many of which need those doctors more than we do. I ask the Secretary of State what plans he has to ensure that we begin to see a flow-through of trained doctors and nurses into the NHS. Of course, we have to start that now to fulfil the needs that we will have many years down the line.

Stafford has been through difficult times and continues to experience them, even though many incredibly dedicated people are tackling our problems. I welcome the help that the Government, the Secretary of State and the primary care trust have given. The next few years will be very trying for all of us as we meet those challenges. As my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich said, we must remember that the patient is at the heart of everything—not processes, not bodies, not organisations, but the patient.

15:24

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

There are few areas of our work in this House that may be described, honestly and without hysteria, as matters of life and death. The national health service is so utterly central to our existence, our future and the hopes of our country that it is no surprise that the emotions it engenders are as strong as those that have been witnessed on the Floor of the House this afternoon.

I have to tell the Secretary of State that he has a problem. He is a man of great charm, he is widely liked and he is popular, yet he has not sealed the deal on his disintegration, disaggregation and atomisation of the national health service. He has not been able to persuade the Royal College of General Practitioners, which tells us that three quarters of its members oppose it. He has not been able to persuade Professor Malcolm Grant, his own choice to run the commissioning board, who describes the plan as “completely unintelligible”. The Secretary of State wishes to persuade the nation that it is appropriate, at this time of all times, to spend about £3 billion on reorganisation—money that could be far better spent dealing with the dental abscess of the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) and all the other problems that face us.

The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke for many in the House when she prayed for a depoliticisation of this issue. The reality is that the national health service was born amid the gun smoke of political opposition; it was born opposed entirely by one political party in this House and supported by another. Of the supporters—

[Mr Brine]

rose—

[Stephen Pound]

Hold on a moment, I am just having a rant.

Of the supporters, let us give credit—because there once was a time when we could give credit to a decent, humane, sensible, consistent bunch of men and women—to the Liberals of those days and to Beveridge for the work that he did. Above all, let us never forget the transcendent genius of a south Wales miner’s son who left school at the age of 14, Aneurin Bevan, who gave us our national—I emphasise “national”—health service.

[Mr Brine]

I apologise profusely for interrupting a rant that I was enjoying. While we are on the subject of opposition to the conception of the national health service, can we place on record the fact that the British Medical Association also opposed it?

[Stephen Pound]

May I thank the hon. Gentleman? I do not know how anyone persuaded him to bowl me that patsy ball that I can immediately crack to the boundary. He is absolutely right. Dr Hill, the radio doctor, opposed the national health service. Aneurin Bevan said that he had had to

“stuff their mouths with gold”.

Of course the producer interest opposed the beginning of the national health service because it was about the consumers—that was its major difference. Of course the vested interests opposed the creation of the national health service—that is no surprise. But that was then.

The national health service was born in compromise. I was born in July 1948, as was the NHS. For many years I was suspected to have been the first child ever born on the NHS, in Queen Charlotte’s hospital, but somebody in Salford beat me to it.

[Barbara Keeley]

Trafford.

[Stephen Pound]

Trafford. I beg your pardon. However, the year before I was born, my parents had a son who died at the age of seven months. The year before that, they had another son who died at the age of eight months. I was born on 5 July 1948, two days after the health service, and I have my five brothers and sisters alive to this day. It is that important.

When I worked as a porter for 10 years at the Middlesex hospital, where my sister and wife were nurses and one of my brothers was an ambulance driver—half the family seemed to be employed there—we realised the consequences of the pragmatic approach to the health service. We had a private patients wing where people like myself, paid by the national health service, did work for people who paid money to a difference source, and where doctors trained under the NHS got personal recompense. One of the single most important aspects of our lives has been political from day one.

Each of the Health Ministers will remember, as I do, that we have sat in the same House as an hon. Member who lost his seat over a hospital closure. Let us never forget Wyre Forest and Kidderminster hospital. It is almost impossible to be objective about this issue. When the Turnberg report was published, it proposed an entirely sensible reconfiguration of London’s acute general hospitals, but it was opposed by almost everyone because of parochial and local issues. When polyclinics were proposed under the previous Government—one of the most logical, sensible, rational and helpful ways of providing primary health care—they were violently opposed by the Conservative party.

The situation now is that there is no consensus. However, I have not often seen anything quite so consensual, positive and forward-looking as the reference in today’s motion to an offer made by the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Health Secretary of

“cross-party talks on reforming NHS commissioning.”

What could be better for the country, and for the reputation of this House, than our recognising that the NHS is not a political football or an issue on which we can strike postures? Yes, there are ideological differences between us, and Opposition Members may wish to see a greater infusion of finance-led choice, more and more commercialisation and an end to the Whitley system, which has survived for so many years. They may wish to see local pay bargaining setting hospital against hospital, clinic against clinic and clinician against clinician, with a constant stream of industrial disputes as localised pay bargaining bursts out all over the place in some industrial conflagration that attracts even more attention. At the moment we have one of the lowest numbers of hospital managers anywhere in Europe, and we will inevitably have to spend more and more on a greater and greater number of managers to deal with all that localised bargaining.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Stephen Pound]

I will give way to my hon. Friend, who knows far more about the subject than I do.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I thank my hon. Friend, and I am greatly enjoying his speech. Does he agree that the opening up of competition under the Health and Social Care Bill as it stands will be a real threat to the NHS as we know it?

[Stephen Pound]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and may I place it on record that, as I am sure virtually everybody in the House would agree, she has brought enormous expertise in this area to the House, for which we are extremely grateful?

The NHS cannot be disaggregated. It has to be a national health service, not a notional health service, a postcode health service, a better-in-some-parts-than-others health service or a good-for-Kensington-bad-for-Kidderminster health service. It has to be for the nation, and why? Because Beveridge did not just produce a one-point proposal for the NHS. There were actually five evils that he wished to slay. It was an integrated proposal that addressed want, hunger, ambition and other issues.

The NHS is not just an agency to patch people up; it is part of providing a healthy, productive nation and increasing the good and the good life within this country. At so many levels, we have to look beyond the bottom line and beyond, as the hon. Member for Southport said, the bean-counting philosophy. The NHS should not be about the click of the abacus in some cobwebbed recess, or about constantly seeking whether things can be bought cheaper here or commissioned for a lower price there. It should not be about container-loads of cheap goods being shipped in from Shanghai because some GP commissioning group somewhere has discovered it can get a discount on Tubigrip. It should be about the recognition that the health of a nation is utterly crucial, basic and intrinsic to that nation’s hope and future. Without health, we have no future.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

I am sorry to break my hon. Friend’s flow, but is it not the underlying principle of this country that we take care of one another? That is the principle behind the NHS and what the NHS stands for.

[Stephen Pound]

It has been said—not by me, but by some—that the NHS has almost become the national religion. They say that as Christianity has faded, as it has in some places—not in my constituency, and certainly not in my home—the NHS has become more important. The NHS is the perfect example of what Galbraith called the “gift relationship”, when we look out for one another. We should not constantly look for the bottom line, but instead look to be our brothers’ keepers. That is the principle—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order.

15:35

[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

It is a privilege to close the debate on the Government’s record on the NHS and to follow such excellent contributions from many hon. Members.

My hon. Friends the Members for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) and for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) rightly spoke of the waste of the Government’s NHS reorganisation. The Government have spent £850 million on redundancy payments for primary care trust staff who will be re-employed in commissioning organisations elsewhere. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) rightly asked the Secretary of State, who is moving from his usual place on the Front Bench, why he was not aware that trusts are re-banding nurses in order to save costs. Labour Members, who talk and listen to front-line staff, know that only too well.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), whom I was privileged to sit alongside in the Health and Social Care Bill Committee, rightly raised the risks of the Bill widening health inequalities and worsening patient care. My right hon. Friend was right when he said that the Bill will be one of the Government’s biggest mistakes.

The hon. Members for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) rightly raised the important issue of the need to integrate health and social care and develop more community-based services, although Opposition Members believe that the Government’s NHS reorganisation, and their huge cuts to local council budgets and social care, will make that far harder, not easier, to achieve.

Before the general election, the Prime Minister made three key promises on the NHS. He promised no more top-down reorganisations; he promised patients up and down the country a bare-knuckle fight to save their local hospitals; and in both the Conservative manifesto and the coalition agreement, he promised that he would increase health spending in real terms in each year of the Parliament. Barely 18 months later, he is forcing through the biggest reorganisation in the history of the NHS—the NHS chief executive says that it is so large, it can be seen from outer space. Local NHS services in Bury, Burnley, Hartlepool and Chase Farm are not being saved or reopened as the Prime Minister and Secretary of State pledged, and, according to Treasury figures, spending on the NHS was cut by more than £750 million in real terms in the first year of this Government. That is three promises made and three promises broken by a Prime Minister who claimed that his personal priority was spelt out in three letters: NHS.

[Gareth Johnson]

Is the hon. Lady aware that in the past 40 years, real-terms spending on the NHS has been reduced on only five occasions, the majority of which were under a Labour Government?

[Liz Kendall]

I wish the hon. Gentleman had been here at the start of the debate, when it was made clear that the last real-terms cut in NHS spending was in the last year of the previous Conservative Government.

Doctors, nurses, patients and the public know the truth about this Government’s plans. When the NHS should be focused on meeting the biggest financial challenge of its life and on improving patient care, it has instead been plunged into chaos. At precisely the time that the NHS needs maximum leadership and financial grip, the Government’s reorganisation is creating havoc. First, they said that they would scrap primary care trusts and strategic health authorities, and replace them with GP consortia. Then they changed their mind, merging PCTs and SHAs in supposedly temporary clusters and replacing consortia with clinical commissioning groups and new clinical senates, and now they have changed their mind again: PCT and SHA clusters have apparently been saved as part of the Government’s huge new national quango, the NHS Commissioning Board, which will employ more than 3,000 people.

Professor Malcolm Grant, the Government’s own choice to run the NHS Commissioning Board, last week called the Government’s plans “completely unintelligible”. The very people who are supposed to be running the NHS are confused and wasting time trying to figure out ill-thought-through Government plans. That time and energy should be spent on patients. Far from cutting bureaucracy and saving taxpayers’ money, the Government are creating hundreds of new organisations and wasting more than £2.5 billion in the process, when this money should be spent on front-line patient care.

What has been the result of 18 months of a Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government running our NHS? Thousands of front-line clinical staff are losing their jobs and posts are being frozen, piling pressure on those who remain. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State shakes his head, but this month the Royal College of Nursing has surveyed 6,000 of its staff and made it clear that 20% of the nurses and health care assistants surveyed said that their job is going to be cut, that 40% are seeing recruitment freezes in their trust and that 13% are seeing bed and ward closures in their trust. Who is more likely to be accurate? The nurses and health care assistants working in our NHS, or the Government, who are denying that any of these changes are taking place?

The result is that patient care is going backwards. Far from what Ministers claim about waiting lists being fine, the number of patients waiting longer than four hours in A and E is now double that of last year. Twice as many patients are waiting more than six weeks for their diagnostic test, and six times as many are waiting longer than 13 weeks. Anybody who has waited, or has had a family member who has waited, more than three months even to get their test knows how worrying and frightening it is, yet the Government deny that there is a problem. Furthermore, 48% more patients are now waiting more than 18 weeks for their hospital treatment.

Despite all the evidence, the Government are in denial. They deny that the number of front-line NHS staff and the number of staff training places are being cut, yet a recent survey by the Royal College of Midwives has shown that six out of 10 SHAs have been freezing staff training places because of the cuts. Given that the Government promised 3,000 more midwives, that is a problem, particularly in constituencies such as mine that have increasing birth rates.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

What is the hon. Lady’s opinion of the £12 billion wasted by the previous Labour Government on the failed NHS IT project?

[Liz Kendall]

The hon. Gentleman, who is a constituency neighbour of mine, would do better focusing his attention on the RCN and RCM in our area, which are asking us why the Government are not fulfilling their commitment on extra midwives. If he goes to the hospitals in Leicester, as his constituents do, he will know that there are concerns about that.

The Government deny that the number of front-line NHS staff is being cut, that waiting lists are rising and, worst of all, that there is still widespread and growing opposition to their NHS plans.

[John Pugh]

Does the hon. Lady seriously believe that the £20 billion-worth of savings required by the last Labour Budget could be achieved without cuts?

[Liz Kendall]

We have been clear on this side of the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) took some difficult decisions when he was Secretary of State for Health, unlike the current Secretary of State. My right hon. Friend looked at what was happening in local hospitals and took the difficult decisions, based on clinical advice, to improve patient care. That is what this Government should be doing.

The Prime Minister says that

“the whole health profession is on board for what is now being done,”

but that is simply not the case. The RCN says that the Bill

“will have a seriously detrimental effect upon the NHS and the delivery of patient care”.

Four hundred of the country’s leading public health experts warn that the Government’s plans will cause “irreparable harm” and fail to deliver

“efficiency, quality, fairness or choice”.

The British Medical Association says that the Bill

“poses an unacceptably high risk to the NHS”.

Government Members now like to criticise the BMA, but before the general election they applauded everything the BMA said. They always want to have it both ways. Three quarters of GPs—the very people this Government claim they want to empower—have said through the Royal College of General Practitioners that the Bill should be withdrawn. [Interruption.] The Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), says from a sedentary position that those groups—the RCN, public health experts, the BMA and the Royal College of General Practitioners—are self-selecting. That is the kind of dismissal of front-line staff that has caused such problems for the Government.

It is not just NHS staff whom the Government refuse to listen to. Organisations such as Age UK and Carers UK say that social care is in financial crisis too. The Government repeatedly claim that they have increased funding for social care, but eight out of 10 local councils are now restricting services to cover only those with substantial or critical needs. Two thirds say that they are closing care homes or day care centres too. The Government’s huge cuts to local council budgets mean that vital services and support for older people, their carers and their families are being eroded. That is not protecting the most vulnerable in our society, nor is it protecting taxpayers’ interests, because if we do not help older people to stay healthy and independent in their own homes, they end up in hospital.

In conclusion, when people think back to what the Prime Minister said before the election and the personal promises he made on the NHS, they now see the truth: a Government who are out of touch with what is really happening; a Government who refuse to listen to front-line staff; a Government in total denial about the true impact of their reckless NHS plans. This Government’s record on the NHS is one of promises cynically made and shamelessly being broken. I commend the motion to the House.

15:47

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

It has been an interesting experience listening to the range of contributions that have been made over the past few hours. Having studied the shadow Secretary of State’s tweets yesterday afternoon heralding today’s debate, one would have expected this to be an action-packed afternoon. One remembers the grand old Duke of York marching his troops up to the top of the hill and then down to the bottom, but the grand old Duke of York had 10,000 men. For most of this debate, apart from the wind-ups, the shadow Secretary of State has barely managed to get more than six Opposition Back Benchers here, which is fewer than the Government have had, so on that point I fear that he has failed.

Let me turn to some of the speeches that I had to listen to. It was a delight to hear the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) again, after a break from the Committee stage of the Health and Social Care Bill. Broken record his speech may have been—it was the same story—but it was worth listening to, even though the accuracy gained nothing in the telling.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) made an excellent speech, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), who spoke fluently and knowledgably, on the basis of his intense and intimate experience of working in the NHS and his insights into the challenges we face in social care and improving the integration of care.

The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) made an interesting contribution, although at times I began to think that she might be the only person who believed what she was saying. None the less, it was interesting.

The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound)—as always, a jokester in our midst—put forward a serious message in a jocular way. From my experience of the NHS, both personal and professional, however, I felt that a lot of what he said bore little relation to reality. I can assure him that Government Members share the core principles of the NHS. I was also interested to hear the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy). Anyone who represents that part of the country will have a deep understanding of the problems, as well as the successes, of the local health service. He was right in what he said about the future of accident and emergency services and about the critical issue of training.

I am saddened by the fact that the Opposition have once again shown themselves to be more interested in trying to revive their own political fortunes than in improving the outcomes of patients. Once again, they prefer to scaremonger and blindly attack, rather than put forward any policies of their own. They have been a policy-free zone in this debate. Once again, they reveal themselves to be on the back foot when it comes to securing the future of the NHS, as well as wrong-headed.

The Opposition claim that the Government are cutting NHS spending, which is not only nonsense but outrageous. Surprisingly, only last summer, the right hon. Member for Leigh said—this has been quoted before, but I will repeat it—that it would be

“irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms”.

Ironically, that is not a view that I share. I fundamental disagree with it, because I believe that we should increase the funding of the NHS in real terms. [Interruption.] I do not care how much the right hon. Gentleman says it; if he looks at the—

[Andy Burnham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

I will in one minute, just to disprove what the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) says.

If the right hon. Gentleman does not want to believe what I say, he can look at the chart produced by the Wales Audit Office, an independent body, which shows, if one cares to read it, real-terms spending increases in each year in the English NHS. Ironically, it also shows such increases in Northern Ireland and Scotland, but if we look at the red parts of the chart, we can see that there are certainly no increases in Labour-controlled Wales.

[Andy Burnham]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I will give way once, briefly, then I must make progress, because I have only eight minutes.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister says that the Government are providing real-terms increases, but he does not take into account inflation or the £1 billion transfer to social care. Will he accept the figures that I have here? They are the total departmental expenditure limits published by the Treasury in July 2011. They show that, in 2009-10, £102 billion was spent on the NHS. The figure for 2010-11 was £101 billion. I invite him to tell me that those figures are not correct.

[Mr Burns]

The right hon. Gentleman told us that, when he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, he understood figures, so he will understand, as I do, that “real terms” means an increase over and above inflation—

[Andy Burnham]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

One minute. The right hon. Gentleman wants a reply, so he must hold his horses.

It is the gross domestic product deflator that determines how one increases in real terms the funding of the NHS. The right hon. Gentleman has once again scored an own goal in reading out those figures, because they are based on the Labour Government’s spending for the year in which they were leaving power.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No, I said that I would give way once. I must now make progress.

We are increasing funding for the NHS in real terms over this Parliament, and stripping out unnecessary bureaucracy to focus precious resources on the front line and not the back office. So in place of management-led primary care trusts and strategic health authorities, we are introducing clinically led clinical commissioning groups, to put money and power in the hands of front-line doctors and nurses. That is why we are driving through the plans to make the NHS more efficient by focusing on prevention, on innovation, on productivity and on driving up the quality of care. A fact that Labour Members appear rapidly to have forgotten is that better care is very often less expensive care, and less expensive care means there is more money to spend on the health service.

[Liz Kendall]

rose—

[Mr Barron]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

I am not giving way, as I have only five minutes left.

Across the country, local health services are coming together to redesign services, thinking creatively to give patients better treatment and very often also making significant cost savings.

[Mr Barron]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

In Torbay, for example, by enhancing the role of the discharge co-ordinator across health and social care, the average length of stay in hospital has been cut by more than 10%, freeing up nurses to spend more time on patient care.

[Mr Barron]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

In Yorkshire and the Humber, the ambulance service gives PCTs a monthly list of their top 10 most frequent callers. These people are then given intensive personalised help, including the use of modern telemedicine to monitor their vital signs. The result is better care for patients as well as—

[Mr Barron]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you know, I took part in this debate and I asked the Minister a question and requested him to answer it in his winding-up speech. Yet he will not even acknowledge that I spoke in the debate. Is there anything you can do, Mr Deputy Speaker, to help Back Benchers keep the Executive in check?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Absolutely nothing. I am sure, however, that the Minister will have heard the point.

[Mr Burns]

Did I hear the right hon. Gentleman’s point, Mr Deputy Speaker? I heard it about three times in Committee and I heard it on Report; I replied each time, as well as writing to the right hon. Gentleman. He does not like the answer, so there is no point in taking the intervention again.

As I was saying, in Yorkshire and the Humber the ambulance service gives PCTs—[Interruption.] I know I have already said it, but there was so much disruption and noise that Labour Members did not hear it. In Yorkshire and the Humber, the ambulance service gives PCTs a monthly list of their top 10 most frequent callers so that they can talk to them and help them in future, saving money and staff time that can be concentrated elsewhere.

[Mr Barron]

rose—

[Liz Kendall]

rose—

[Mr Burns]

The result is better care for patients and, for this group, a 80% fall in unplanned admissions, a 20% reduction in bed days and a halving of ambulance journeys. That means better care for patients and better value for the taxpayer.

[Liz Kendall]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

Just as Labour Members are wrong about NHS funding, they are also wrong about the Bill. [Interruption.] The Bill focuses on the most important thing for patients—the outcome of the treatment they need either to cure them or to stabilise their long-term conditions. Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am finding it difficult to hear the Minister. [Interruption.] Order. He has made it quite clear that he is not giving way.

[Mr Burns]

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals are being empowered to take decisions and to design the innovative, integrated services that will best serve the interests of their patients, with a resolute focus on outcomes. The NHS outcomes framework, and the growing number of National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence quality standards will mean that patients and clinicians will be able to see clearly just how good individual providers—even individual consultant teams—are performing and then demand the treatment that they deserve.

In the short time since this Government have been elected, care for patients has improved significantly in many areas. For example, MRSA down; C. difficile, down; mixed-sex accommodation, massively down; more doctors, fewer managers; more patients with an NHS dentist; more cancer screening; the cancer drugs fund; the new 111 urgent care service; more money; less bureaucracy; and a far brighter future for the national health service. The motion before us is devoid of reality and it was backed up by a number of speeches that were divorced from the real world. Its claims are false, its premises unsound. For those reasons, I urge the House to reject it.

Question put.

15:59

Division 377

Ayes: 228

---

Labour: 221
Democratic Unionist Party: 2
Independent: 2
Alliance: 1
Green Party: 1

Noes: 307

---

Conservative: 264
Liberal Democrat: 41
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

[Mr Speaker]

We come to the next matter to be debated on this Opposition day, namely the Government’s record on environmental protection and green growth.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Who could neglect the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram)? We will deal with his point of order first.

[Steve Rotheram]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I should like some clarification from you because I do not know the answer to this question. When two of my constituents went through the Cromwell Green security check area, they were searched and photographed, obviously, but then a piece of paper they had with them—a pensions petition signed by the staff of Four Oaks primary school—was taken from them. When they asked why, they were told it was a security risk. Can you clarify what might have been meant by a piece of paper being a security risk? Were staff frightened that somebody might get a paper cut?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and for having given advance notice of his intention to raise it. I have a fertile imagination but it is stretched to the limits by an attempt to discover what on earth could be the problem here. The hon. Gentleman and others will know that some items are considered out of order for bringing into the House, but I cannot imagine why this would fall into that category. I think it only right to say that I will have a conversation and look into the matter. I know that the staff of the House always do their best, but my instant reaction is that I cannot imagine why it should have caused offence. Moreover, I cannot, off the top of my head, credit the idea that constituents of the hon. Gentleman’s coming to the House would cause offence.

Environmental Protection and Green Growth

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

16:16

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House believes that the UK risks being left behind in its attempts to attract global investment in environmental technologies; agrees with the British Retail Consortium that the recent Waste Review is a disappointment; further agrees with the Nature Check report by 29 environmental charities that the Government has failed to deliver its environmental goals; condemns the Government’s 27 per cent. cut in flood defence investment from £354 million to £259 million a year; calls on the Government to adopt Labour’s five point plan for jobs and growth and bring forward spending on rural infrastructure projects for flood defences and rural broadband; further calls on the Government to raise the UK recycling target to 70 per cent. by 2025 to create an additional 50,000 jobs; and believes the Government should ensure mandatory carbon emissions reporting for all large UK companies to kick-start green jobs and growth.

May I begin by expressing Opposition Members’ regret that the Environment Secretary is unable to join us for the debate? I understand she is giving evidence to the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but it is a very short walk from the Grimond room in Portcullis House to the Chamber and I hope that we have the opportunity to debate these issues with her at a future date. I would certainly look forward to that.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Mary Creagh]

I have not even started yet.

[Dr Coffey]

My understanding is that the motion was tabled only last night, so the Government would have known only today that the attendance of the Secretary of State might be wanted, whereas her arrangements with the Select Committee were made some time ago.

[Mary Creagh]

It is at the Minister’s discretion whether she appears in the Chamber. She could have been informed this morning about an urgent question and would have had to appear before the House. The motion was tabled last night at about 5 o’clock, so she has had almost 24 hours to prepare her speech. I am sure that the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), has been beavering away on his remarks.

Let me start by taking the House back to 2006 and a fresh-faced Leader of the then Opposition visiting the Arctic circle. We all remember the Prime Minister hugging a husky, as well as “Vote blue, go green”. The Tory manifesto told us,

“That is why we have put green issues back at the heart of our politics and that is why they will be at the heart of our government.”

Several megatonnes of carbon dioxide and hot air were emitted by a variety of Conservative MPs confessing their green damascene conversion. In opposition, going green was an essential part of detoxifying the Tory brand, but in the 18 short months that the Government have been in power we have seen progress stall on the environment. As their disastrous economic policies take hold, with confidence failing, unemployment and inflation rising and growth flatlining, the green talk has not been matched by green action.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has had a disastrous settlement in the comprehensive spending review—the second-biggest spending cut of any Department—taking £2 billion in cash out of the environment over the next four years. The Secretary of State was bounced into a disastrous plan to raise £100 million by selling England’s forests, and we await the review of the Bishop of Liverpool, Bishop James Jones. [Interruption.] I am glad to see that the parliamentary private secretary is distributing lines to take from the Government. It is always good to see the briefing machine in action. We hope the brief has been printed on Forest Stewardship Council paper.

The Government have abolished the Sustainable Development Commission, the Government’s watchdog on sustainable development.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

Would not the Government do better to try to close the tax gap and stop people hiding their money in foreign accounts, rather than cutting valuable budgets?

[Mary Creagh]

Yes, I agree, and I know that the Government are working to close tax loopholes, as we did in government.

DEFRA published its “Mainstreaming sustainable development” strategy in February—just seven pages to cut across the whole of Government. Its sustainable development programme board has not met since December last year and the sustainable development policy working group has not met since November. We got those answers in June 2011, so we can see that sustainable development is clearly no longer at the heart of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

What does this add up to? The Government have a plan for cuts but no plan for the environment, yet at the Tory conference the Environment Secretary told her colleagues:

“I passionately believe going green is both a moral and economic imperative.”

The very next day the Chancellor told the conference:

“We’re going to cut our carbon emissions no slower but also no faster than our fellow countries in Europe.”

It was the day the husky died. The greenest Government ever were not even the greenest Government in 2010.

Our Labour Government were the greenest Government, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn). I pay tribute also to my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who makes a welcome return to our team, for the progress that he made on the environment when he was a Minister.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

I note the comment, “Our Labour Government were the greenest Government”. We were 25th out of the 27 countries in the EU for renewables production in 2009-10. Is that what the hon. Lady means by “the greenest Government”?

[Mary Creagh]

We on the Labour Benches have always protected the environment, whether by setting up the national parks or introducing the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Climate Change Act 2008. These show our green leadership. Will the Chancellor’s comments and the spat with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change enhance or reduce our leadership on these issues in Europe?

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the hon. Lady think a little humility might be in order, given that when we take into account the UK’s share of international aviation and shipping emissions, under Labour’s three terms of office, greenhouse gas emissions rose, rather than fell?

[Mary Creagh]

A little humility might be in order for the hon. Lady, who ignores the fact that we were the first Government in the world to legislate for binding emissions targets.

[David Mowat]

rose—

[Mary Creagh]

I shall make a little progress and I will give way again.

Today we see open warfare breaking out between Government Departments over mixed messages to UK plc, with the headline in The Independent, “Osborne’s anti-green agenda splits Coalition” and today the speech from the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and snub to the Chancellor to cheers from a business audience. The only people who benefit from such Cabinet warfare are the climate sceptics at the Treasury and the Cabinet Office, who want us to do less.

Our motion today expresses our concern at this internecine warfare and proposes three steps that the Department can take now to restore business confidence in the green agenda: bringing forward infrastructure spending on flood defence and broadband, as suggested in Labour’s five-point plan for growth; committing to mandatory carbon reporting to stimulate green innovation; and higher waste targets to drive private sector job creation. I shall address each of those in turn.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I represent a flood-hit constituency in the Severn valley. We had serious floods in 1998, 2000 and 2007. Since May 2010, Pershore, Powick, Uckinghall, Kempsey and two schemes in Upton-upon-Severn have been started or completed, compared with the record under the hon. Lady’s Government, where we got one scheme in 13 years.

[Mary Creagh]

That is an honourable intervention from the hon. Lady. I think it was The Guardian that reported that around 500 flood defence schemes are currently in abeyance. I am keen to hear from the Minister about the future of those schemes.

In the last two years of the Labour Government, spending on flood defences rose by 33%. We know that flooding and other extreme weather events are likely to increase with global warming. We saw only yesterday the devastation that floods can cause, and I know that the thoughts of the whole House will be with the families of the angler who was swept into the sea at Redcar and the two people who died in Ireland. We saw the heartache and the huge cost of flooding in Cornwall and Cumbria in 2009 and in Yorkshire and Gloucestershire in 2007. In this country 5 million homes are at risk from flooding.

In opposition, the Prime Minister called for extra funding for the flood defences budget—hear, hear. Under Labour the budget rose, but the Under-Secretary has cut spending on this essential part of our infrastructure from £354 million in 2010 to just £259 million this year and every year until 2015, which is a 27% cut. Nearly £500 million has been taken out of flood defences.

Communities at risk from flooding need a strong advocate arguing their case at the heart of Government. The Environment Agency tells us that the cost-benefit ratio of all flood defence schemes means that for every £1 we put in we get £8 back. That is money saved on public safety by the Home Office, on lost hours in the NHS, on disruption to transport and on the cost to the Department for Communities and Local Government of clean-up and re-housing people.

The Environment Agency has told us that many of the flood schemes have been deferred indefinitely, but the Minister says that they have merely been postponed, so we hope that he will clarify that today. We call on him to bring forward the planned flood defence investment to create the private sector construction and engineering employment that the country needs and to ensure that towns and cities that need flood protection get it as soon as possible.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend say something about the effect of the cuts in flood defences? Constituents in areas that have been flooded are having difficulty in obtaining insurance. With the statement of principles running out in 2013, what will be the effects of that?

[Mary Creagh]

My hon. Friend, as usual, makes an excellent point. She has spoken eloquently and at length about the flood insurance deserts that have resulted from the chilling effect of the cuts. One of the key recommendations of the Pitt review, which followed the 2007 floods and affected my constituency of Wakefield, was that flood defence spending should rise by more than inflation every year. With inflation at 5%, that would mean an increase of more than 5% this year.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

This is not a party political question. The Scots argue strongly that one of the best ways to deal with flooding is not to allow construction on flood plains. Will the shadow Minister acknowledge that one of the real errors of the past 15 years has been our construction policy, rather than the amount of money put into flood defences?

[Mary Creagh]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question, but I did not hear him thank us for the flood defences that were put in place in Cumbria following the terrible floods there.

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you.

[Mary Creagh]

It was our pleasure. I know that Carlisle also suffered terribly. We cannot stop all development. The Thames Gateway development is happening on areas that are also potentially flood plains, but we must ensure that there is a joined-up strategy across Government and that the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Treasury and the Home Office look at the real costs of flooding. At the moment insurers pay out, but it is not in their interests to stop flood events, because ultimately it is the reinsurers who pay the costs. We need to drill down and get a true account from across Government of the costs of flood events.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Apart from the fact that we have £2.1 billion prepared for flood defences, does the hon. Lady agree that it is quite right that in my constituency, which was affected by the floods to which she referred, proper consultation is going on with the Environment Agency to deal with the Severn estuary and that a timely imposition of action is much better than something that is rushed? Furthermore, does that not show the importance of localism in such considerations?

[Mary Creagh]

It is clear that localism is absolutely vital and local communities should be able to have a say on developments in their area, but I am not clear how that links in with the Government’s national planning policy framework, which has undefined “sustainable development” at its heart. No one can say what “sustainable development” is.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I am not sure whether I should thank the hon. Lady personally for any flood defences that have been built in my constituency over the past 13 years, but I will certainly do so if it allows me to continue my intervention, which expands on the point that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made. Do Labour Members agree that we need to tighten planning policy, particularly in relation to empowering the Environment Agency and giving it a veto in areas of flood risk and on flood plains?

[Mary Creagh]

We cannot allow all development to be killed off, but I agree that there is no point building and selling homes that are not sustainable, and that will be uninsurable, un-mortgageable and unfit for human habitation if they are hit by successive flood events.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

With a reduction in the flood defence budget to pre-Pitt levels, does my hon. Friend agree that, in getting the deficit down, there is confusion between revenue spending and capital investment? Surely, capital investment means building up assets to protect people’s homes and businesses, but all the Government are doing is playing Russian roulette with people’s lives and futures.

[Mary Creagh]

That is a very good point, and there is also a direct impact on construction and engineering jobs, which are flatlining. For the record, by the way, may I make it clear that I was not requesting any personal thanks? All thanks should be directed to my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore, who is sitting next to me.

Labour is the party of jobs and growth not just in cities, but in towns and villages throughout this great country of ours. We are standing up for fairness in the countryside, as yesterday’s debate about the Agricultural Wages Board showed.

[Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend mentioned Carlisle. The terrible floods that occurred in my constituency in 2009 created havoc and devastation, and led to the loss of life of a very brave police officer. Carlisle, on whose flood defences £30 million had been spent, was not flooded, but the estimate of the damage that would have occurred without those defences is between £70-odd million and £80 million. Surely, these cuts are only short-term savings.

[Mary Creagh]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend. I read in Hansard the debates he had last year on the issue. The floods were devastating, and he played a huge leadership role in his community, bringing it together in the very difficult months that followed, when without a bridge it was split by the river.

We want strong rural communities where rural businesses can sell their goods and services direct and file their accounts over the internet, and where families have the same opportunities as people in towns and cities. In government, Labour promised universal rural broadband by 2012 and universal high-speed broadband by 2015, yet this Government have said that universal broadband will come only in 2015, and only as long as cash-strapped councils, which have also seen their budgets cut by one third, stump up half the money.

Broadband is essential if we are to tackle the social and financial exclusion that many in the countryside face. Speeding up rural broadband should not be part of a plan B; it should have been in the Government’s plan A. So, we call on them to speed up spending on this 21st century infrastructure in order to stimulate growth and private sector jobs in rural economies.

Let me turn to carbon reporting. In January 2010, several Tory and Lib Dem Members wrote to Labour’s then Business Secretary, calling for mandatory carbon reporting. They included the current Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), and the hon. Members for Lewes (Norman Baker), for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey)—all now Ministers. In that letter, they said:

“There will be further economic benefits, accelerating the development of the low carbon economy and giving the City the backing it needs to become the world leader in carbon accounting and reporting.”

What a difference two years make.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I know that the Labour party has an obsession with carbon emissions, and indeed the Climate Change Act 2008 was evidence of that, but the motion is about job creation. Carbon reduction has led to an increase in consumer and business electricity prices, and to energy-intensive industries relocating outside the United Kingdom, with the British Air Transport Association saying only last week, “If we continue down this road it will affect the aviation industry’s competitiveness,” so will the hon. Lady explain how that fits with job creation?

[Mary Creagh]

It is not a matter of either/or. Unlike the Government, far-sighted companies have realised that reporting environmental impact helps them to reduce their costs, to improve their production processes, and drives innovation in products and services. That is where we were a leader in the green economy.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern and frustration that, on carbon reporting, proposals to display energy certificates were made in the Energy Bill Committee? That was called for by many large companies that want reporting of carbon emissions. We were frustrated because, despite saying before they came to government that they supported such a measure, Government Members did not do so in Committee, even though the proposal came from a Conservative Member, who had then to vote against it when we pressed it to a Division.

[Mary Creagh]

What a sorry tale. Again, the power of the Whips is demonstrated, even in Committee. That shows the collective amnesia on green issues that both parties in government are demonstrating.

[David Mowat]

Does the hon. Lady believe that if we had had more carbon reporting in the past 13 years we would now be higher than 25th of the 27 EU countries in terms of renewables? For the avoidance of doubt, and so that the House is aware, the two countries that we were ahead of in renewables in 2010 were Malta and Luxembourg.

[Mary Creagh]

We have leadership in offshore wind, and that was restated by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change today. I was at a business breakfast meeting with representatives of several large manufacturers of regeneration technology, and they said that the most important thing they want from the Government is certainty. I am not sure that climate change was at the top of our agenda 13 years ago, but we have realised over time that it is already factored in and that we will have changing climate over the next 50 years, so we must do something now if we are to preserve and conserve the earth’s resources. We have only one planet.

[David Mowat]

I agree with everything that the shadow Secretary of State has said, but I am concerned that after 13 years of the previous Government we were 25th of 27 countries, beating only Malta and Luxembourg.

[Mary Creagh]

When we were in government, we invested £60 million to allow wind turbine manufacturers to invest in our ports.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend should ignore the campaign against having an environmental agenda, because it is not against business. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills visited David Brown Gear Systems in Huddersfield—I am the Member of Parliament for Huddersfield, although many people from Colne Valley also work there. We are now specialising in offshore wind power, which is providing jobs and high technology. There is real money in the environment, but the Government are retreating from their green agenda.

[Mary Creagh]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

I must tell the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that a green company in my constituency, Logicor, manufactures a product called a green plug, and has business angel backing to roll it out nationally and internationally. The plug fits to an iron or other appliance, and automatically turns it off after 15 or 20 minutes if someone leaves the room and forgets to do so. It has been shown that that can reduce carbon emissions in the home by about 50%. The company’s research demonstrated that what we all fail to switch off most often is our computer printer. I share that with the House and the nation for those who wish do their bit on climate change.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

There is an opportunity to promote jobs and growth in the green sector by cutting the rate of VAT to 5%. As my hon. Friend will be aware, there are several anomalies in this area. For example, installing heating controls attract a reduced rate of 5%, but replacing an old boiler with a modern, energy-efficient one does not. This is surely an opportunity to boost the economy and small business.

[Mary Creagh]

Indeed. Our proposal to reduce VAT to 5% on people’s improvements to their homes in making them more heat and energy-efficient is absolutely part of this agenda.

[Luciana Berger]

I am not sure where the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) got his figures from. Every year, Pew Environment Group brings out a report that measures countries’ investment in clean tech and renewables. It shows that in 2009, under a Labour Government, we were fifth in the world, and in one year alone, we have dropped to 13th—the largest drop of any G20 country, by 70%—as a result of the policy uncertainty under this Government and the lack of investment forthcoming. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about that drop and how it might impact?

[Mary Creagh]

I certainly do; once again, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Uncertainty is the thing that business likes least, but unfortunately uncertainty is what they are getting, in bucketfuls.

[David Mowat]

rose—

[Mary Creagh]

I give way to the hon. Gentleman for absolutely the last time.

[David Mowat]

The shadow Minister is very generous and I thank her for giving way for absolutely the last time. I got my figures from an EU website, so they are in the public domain. We are 25th out of 27, the two countries that we beat are Malta and Luxembourg, and that is a matter of public record.

[Mary Creagh]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has been reading the useful publications from the European Union. I do not know which way he voted on Monday, but I am sure that that will be noted by the Whips. [Interruption.] Well, he is using the European Union to back up his argument, and that is very good news.

[Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend remember, as I do, the amount of opposition from Tories and Lib Dems to all applications for wind farms in their areas? Our Government would have made much greater progress—I can say that as a Minister who was there at the time—had it not been for such opposition to developing renewables.

[Mary Creagh]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s role in government. Obviously, the decisions that we made in government paved the way for Mitsubishi and Siemens to think about relocating here. We do not want to drive energy-intensive industries or jobs overseas, because in many cases such industries are contributing directly to green development—for example, the steel that is pressed for offshore wind turbines that are manufactured in the UK. Companies in these industries want transparency so that there is a level playing field, showcasing the best and exchanging knowledge so that they can reduce their costs and their environmental impact. We pay tribute to the companies that have already done that work.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

I represent the seat that holds the birthplace of industry, and, some would therefore argue, the birthplace of global warming. These things are probably best done locally. Some local authorities have incredibly good partnerships with businesses. My hon. Friend will be aware that Ricoh, the technology company, has its European headquarters in my constituency. It is a fairly energy-intensive company, but it puts over 90% of its waste product back into the industrial process, internally or with partners. That is an example of where an energy-intensive business can do a lot for the environment as well.

[Mary Creagh]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for that contribution. I agree that it is very important that these companies now look through the whole of their manufacturing processes. I will deal with the role of waste in a moment.

In July this year, the Aldersgate Group, a collection of charities with large companies such as BT, PepsiCo and Microsoft, commissioned a report that provided an independent analysis of the impact assessment produced by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on mandatory carbon reporting. Taking just one of the options—option 3—Aldersgate found that DEFRA had overestimated the total costs by up to £4.6 billion and underestimated the benefits by £980 million. It said that DEFRA’s impact assessment had ignored wider behavioural change, product and service innovation and other strategic advantages from carbon reporting. It also states that DEFRA underestimates the benefits to companies over time, because the DEFRA model assumes that once companies have reduced their emissions in year one, they will not reduce them again over the following nine years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) said, large companies such as Ricoh and Tata get very good consultants in every year to see how they can drive down their costs and environmental impact.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I know that the hon. Lady will acknowledge that these are complicated issues. I want to turn her attention to the food industry. Under her Government, the amount of food that this country imported rose exponentially. The carbon footprint of importing food, for example beef from Brazil or asparagus from water-stressed Mexico, is enormous.

[Mary Creagh]

That is a very good point. I wonder whether the Minister will say something about Labour’s “Food 2030” strategy, which looked at food security both nationally and internationally, on which the Department has been eloquently silent since the Government came to power.

To return to carbon reporting, I cannot help but wonder whether the Department is deliberately inflating costs and reducing benefits as part of a go-slow on these areas. We know that that go-slow is driven by the climate change sceptics at the Treasury and the Cabinet Office. When can we expect the results of the Department’s consultations? What are the Minister’s plans to help companies whose biggest environmental impact is not carbon-related, but water consumption, as in the case of the food industry, the amount of waste they send to landfill or the natural resources that they consume?

The Government can drive green innovation in the food industry, our largest manufacturing sector, by using public procurement as they are the UK’s largest buyer. DEFRA is charged with overseeing the Government’s buying standards on sustainable food. Recent figures show that just 11% of Department for Work and Pensions food is sourced to UK animal welfare standards. In today’s Farmers Weekly, there is the extraordinary spectacle of a DEFRA Minister slamming his own Department for not meeting higher food standards, instead of standing up and taking responsibility for the poor performance. It was not like that when my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore was in government. I suppose that he wanted to get his criticism in before mine today. That is no way to treat the nation’s civil servants.

Waste is big business. The sector employs 142,000 people and has a turnover of £11 billion. There are companies that collect waste, treat it and turn it into new resources and energy for the nation, as in the case of Ricoh that was cited by my hon. Friend the Member for Telford.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I commend to my hon. Friend the partnership between the Labour-led Greater Manchester waste disposal authority and Viridor Laing, which has invested £630 million into new high-tech mechanical separation facilities, including one near the edge of my constituency in Bredbury in the seat of the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell). The partnership’s aim is to compost 50% of waste and to reduce by 75% the waste that goes from Greater Manchester households to landfill.

[Mary Creagh]

I pay tribute to that scheme, because it has created certainty not just for the council, but for employment in the area and it will drive down the council’s waste emissions. Biodegradable material decomposing in landfill generates 40% of the UK’s methane emissions and 3% of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions. In government, Labour trebled household recycling from 11% to 40% with schemes such as that mentioned by my hon. Friend.

The Government’s recent waste review was a missed opportunity to boost recycling and create new green jobs. It was overshadowed by the in-fighting over weekly bin collections between the Secretary of State for chicken tikka masala and the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

[Andrew George]

Does the shadow Secretary of State accept that a weakness in the motion and in her waste policy is that they are based purely on measuring recycling levels? Surely it would be better to measure the success of policies such as those in the waste review using increases in waste, rather than in recycling, because it is theoretically possible for recycling and landfill to increase at the same time.

[Mary Creagh]

I am sure that would be a great idea in a perfect world, but we are living in the real world and need to comply with the EU waste framework directive so as not to incur huge EU infraction fines. I will come on to what that means.

The three devolved Governments have all adopted an ambitious target of 60% of waste being recycled by 2020, and Scotland and Wales are aiming for 70% by 2025. That leaves England with the weakest recycling target in the UK, which is the target for the UK as a whole to meet the bare legal European minimum of 50% by 2020. There is a bitter irony in that, because the more the devolved nations achieve, the less England will have to deliver to reach the UK target. House of Commons Library research conducted for my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) shows that if the devolved nations meet their targets, England will need to recycle only 47.6% of waste by 2020 to meet its target.

Last week I visited the Rexam can manufacturing plant in Wakefield. Rexam works continually to develop its environmental performance, focusing on objectives including reducing the consumption of resources—I think that was the point that the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) was making. Over the past year, the plant has reduced its gas consumption by a quarter and its electricity consumption by 30%. The cans, which are ones that we all drink out of, such as Coca-Cola cans, are manufactured to a width of 97 microns, the width of two human hairs. That is another little fact that I can share with the House.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that supermarkets have a role to play in reducing waste, by reducing food packaging, by not encouraging people to throw away food on unrealistic sell-by dates, and by supporting projects such as FoodCycle, of which I have recently become a patron? That project takes unused food from supermarkets to community cafés and helps to feed people who would be unable to feed themselves. Does she agree that that is an absolutely brilliant project, and that supermarkets ought to be doing more to support it?

[Mary Creagh]

I do indeed, and I know that many of them are doing that. I have had a debate with the Co-operative about its naked cucumbers. [Interruption.] I pay tribute to charities that are working to recycle unwanted food.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

On naked cucumbers? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is so much chuntering going on that I cannot hear about these naked cucumbers through all the noise.

[Mary Creagh]

I give way to the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith).

[Zac Goldsmith]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way on the subject of inappropriate vegetables. I believe that up to 40% of fruit and veg is thrown away before it even reaches the shop. Does that not imply that the supermarkets should be doing a lot more to counter the perverse incentive on producers to provide superficially perfect but no more valuable produce? Should we not address that?

[Mary Creagh]

Supermarkets do encourage shoppers with deals that may not be as cheap as they first appear, such as buy one, get one free. However, people are now shopping much more carefully. We are hearing from supermarkets about the re-emergence of the cash shopper. People are coming in with a certain amount in their purse or wallet to spend, and not going over their budget at all. They are being much more careful about what they buy and what they consume or throw away.

Of course, all food that is not consumed is a waste. It is a waste of water and of the carbon used in the logistics and transportation. However, there is some necessary food waste, such as apple peelings and banana skins, and we have to ensure that such waste is dealt with. Packaging businesses are taking action on the environment, so I feel the Government are really out of touch on the issue.

Last week, 29 environmental charities published their “Nature Check” report, which showed that the Government were meeting just two of the 16 coalition environmental targets. Across the country, people who voted blue have started to question the Government’s environmental record. How can they abolish Labour’s regional housing targets and then change the planning system so that councils are left in chaos and confusion and local communities are left out of the mix? How can a Government who have cut £2 billion from the environment budget deliver a better environment, and how can a Government who believe in a small state and are anti-regulation deliver environmental progress for people and our planet?

Next year we will celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Rio Earth summit, whose agreements were signed by the last Tory Government, and the 31st anniversary of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. I hope that the louring figures of the Chancellor and the Minister for the Cabinet Office will not prevent the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs from celebrating those landmark successes.

In Labour’s vision for a green economy, value and growth will be maximised, and natural assets will be managed sustainably. It will be supported by a thriving low-carbon and environmental goods and services sector; environmental damage will be reduced; and a skilled work force will ensure that we innovate and keep our global competitive edge.

In the coming autumn statement, we need a comprehensive green growth strategy from the Chancellor. Governments around the world are attracting investment in environmental technologies and the UK economy risks being left behind, but I am afraid that he has sapped green business confidence in the UK as a leader in climate change technology. Once again, he has shown that he is out of touch with business and driven by dogma. I urge the House to support the Opposition motion.

16:55

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

May I thank the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) for tabling this motion? I could not have wanted a better form of words in order to extol the virtues of this Government and to point out the manifest failings of the previous one. If I had a better handle on the usual channels, as I think they are called, I might have got a member of the Backbench Business Committee to produce just such a motion, because it allows me to discuss some of the excellent things that we are doing to make this the greenest Government ever.

I start by apologising on behalf of the Secretary of State for the fact that she is not here. I know that many members of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs would have liked to be here too. However, there is a courtesy, which the Secretary of State feels very strongly, which says that Select Committees are very important for holding Ministers to account. We took that view in opposition, and now we are in government we intend to ensure that we make ourselves available when Select Committees wish to question us at length.

With her customary generosity of spirit and her sunny nature, the hon. Member for Wakefield made a number of points about the Government, but perhaps failed to mention some of the good things. I hope she and the House will forgive me if I comment on the wording of the motion and on where we are moving forward. On environmental technologies, the hon. Lady did not feel the urge to mention the £3 billion that has been invested through the green investment bank, and she felt unable to talk about the vast amounts that that will generate in the private sector, or about the 26 million homes that will benefit from the green deal, which is the largest retrofit of infrastructure in our homes to benefit those on low incomes and make us a greener country.

The hon. Lady did not talk about the fourth carbon budget, which so many groups recognised and praised us for achieving, or about Ian Cheshire of the Kingfisher Group, who will be leading business opportunities for green growth. In this financial year alone, £1.7 billion has been invested in environmental technologies, creating 9,000 jobs all over the country.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

The Minister is acutely aware of how devastated east Yorkshire was by flooding in 2007. One of the most worrying aspects of the Labour party manifesto was a promise to cut capital spending by 50%. Will he assure us that flood protection will get the required investment, and that this Government are committed to flood protection in a way that the Labour party were not before the last election?

[Richard Benyon]

Before the election, the previous Chancellor announced that there would be a 50% cut in DEFRA’s capital spend. If Labour had won that election, it might have said that it would not cut flood protection, but in that case, what would it have cut? The hon. Member for Wakefield used the tired old argument that if we are to compare apples with apples, we must compare this Government with the last two years of the previous one. However, in this four years, there is an 8% cut compared with the previous four years. Bearing in mind the cuts across the Government and the appalling legacy that we were left, we have made flooding an absolute priority.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the Minister for giving way so early on. Will he correct the supposition of the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) that the previous Government said anything about cutting flood defence spending? We did not say that. I shall put that on the record again. The Minister is right that we would have to find the cuts somewhere, but we never indicated that they would come from flood defence, because of the impact that would have on people’s businesses, homes and, potentially, lives.

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman forgets that a 50% cut in capital spending has to come from somewhere. I entirely accept that he might have said there would have been no cut to flood defence spending if Labour had won the election, but nobody believes that it would have survived in its entirety.

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I shall make some progress, and then I shall certainly give way to the hon. Lady.

The hon. Lady talked about waste and recycling. It is reasonable for an Opposition to push a Government in certain directions, but they cannot just pluck a recycling target of 70% from the air, even though I would certainly aspire to such a target. However, recycling targets on their own are not a measure of how well a Government are doing. Instead, it is vital that we consider the matter in the round and that we push waste issues up the hierarchy. We cannot simply imagine a day when we could move to 70% recycling without getting the industry working properly with us to ensure that there are markets for recyclates and that we have an absolute plan, which is what we have done through our waste initiative.

[Joan Ruddock]

I remind the Minister that, in 2003, a private Member’s Bill that I introduced and which became an Act, imposed on local authorities a mandatory duty to recycle at least two waste streams, with a deadline of December 2010. What action did he take on the small minority of local authorities that did not comply last year?

[Richard Benyon]

We absolutely want to meet the EU’s waste reduction targets and the recycling targets, and we will certainly move towards 50%, but there are local factors to be considered.

[Joan Ruddock]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I am trying to answer the right hon. Lady.

Local factors apply. These matters can, and should, be dealt with locally, and local councils should be held accountable when they fail. I shall come on to that in a minute.

[Joan Ruddock]

I wonder whether the Minister heard me correctly. The duty is mandatory. What has he done with the local authorities that did not meet that mandatory target?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall get back to the right hon. Lady. [Interruption.] I am sure she understands that this is not an area of my brief, but the responsibility of my noble Friend Lord Taylor. However, I shall certainly get an answer to the right hon. Lady’s question.

[Mary Creagh]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. The five or six matters that he outlined at the beginning of his speech were not DEFRA issues; they come under the Department of Energy and Climate Change. I am glad that he has been joined by the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker). Does he support his hon. Friend’s proposal to introduce mandatory carbon reporting as soon as possible?

[Richard Benyon]

We are moving towards it, but I shall come on to that in a minute.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) for his intervention on flood defences. We are talking about an 8% reduction in spending. That is the fair comparison. I know that the hon. Member for Wakefield was being flippant, but it identifies a problem in her party—that people do not have to thank her or her hon. Friend the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for money spent on flood defences. This is taxpayers’ money, and it is vital that that taxpayers’ money is spent in the best possible way. We want to ensure that, over the next few years, we spend taxpayers’ money in the most effective way, because, as the hon. Lady correctly pointed out, we get a good return on taxpayers’ money if it is spent in the right way.

Our new partnership funding scheme will see the taxpayers’ pound going further. We are seeing efficiencies in the Environment Agency that mean that more houses and properties will be protected; and when we take our indicative list forward next year, I hope that many hon. Members’ constituencies will benefit from new schemes with new partnership funding that will bring benefits to those communities.

[Tony Cunningham]

I am not going to make a party political point; I want to look forward rather than backwards. Will the hon. Gentleman visit my constituency? Next month is the second anniversary of the devastating floods. If he agrees to come, he will get some criticism about the maintenance of rivers and streams, and so on, but he will also see for himself some of the superb work that local people have done.

[Richard Benyon]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have huge respect for the leadership that he showed at the time of the floods and for the work that he has done since to push me and my Department in various ways to improve the resilience of that community against flooding. I would be delighted to visit. I would also like to consult him on the development work that we are doing to create new internal drainage boards in the area to deal with precisely the issues that he has raised. I hope that we can ensure better flood resilience in future.

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way for the last time and then make some progress.

[Mary Creagh]

What I said was certainly not meant to sound arrogant; it was a debating point, made in jest to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), about the fact that his community had benefited from flood defences, yet he is now part of a Government who are cutting off those defences. Let me challenge the Minister again on the figures. He talks about an 8% cut to DEFRA spending, but can he name another area of Government accounting where spending has been calculated over the previous four years, instead of taking a baseline year which was the last year that Labour was in government? His figure of 8% is based on four years of previous spending compared with four years of future spending. No other Department is doing that; it is an example of funny DEFRA maths.

[Richard Benyon]

It is certainly not that; it is a sensible comparison. One cannot compare how the hon. Lady’s party behaved in government in the months and years preceding a general election with how it would behave now, when the Opposition have announced to the House how much they would have reduced spending. It is a tired old canard to keep up this talk about spending. She would be much better off looking forward and recognising that the new regime and policies that we are introducing will have a good effect.

The important point that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made about insurance is something that exercises us greatly. We hope to make an announcement in the near future about how we will take forward the statement of principles after it concludes in 2013.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned the Environment Agency earlier. I wonder whether he shares my concern about its failure to take action in my constituency against the discharge of raw sewage into a local brook and on to farmland. It has instead suggested a policy of co-operation and education with the group responsible for that behaviour. Will he agree to take an interest in this matter and resolve it quickly so that proper environmental protection is ensured?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall certainly look at that situation in my hon. Friend’s constituency. It is vital that we take action to clean up rivers. We have put £92 million more into the budget to try to improve the quality of the water in our rivers. Anybody who is polluting should be penalised, and that is what the Environment Agency is for.

[Rory Stewart]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way once more before making some progress.

[Rory Stewart]

In fact, we have not experienced capital cuts in Cumbria; rather, the Environment Agency is being considerably more flexible than it was six or nine months ago, responding to communities and clearing out gravel. The progress is good under the current Government; I would like to put that on the record.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. The new partnership scheme will end the problem of communities failing, year after year, to get just above the line needed for their schemes to go ahead. There will now be clarity in the system, so that people can see exactly where they are on the scale and what needs to be geared up, by whatever means, for their scheme to get above the line.

May I express my admiration, in a perverse way, for the nerve of the hon. Member for Wakefield for mentioning the word “broadband” in the motion and in her speech? That is masterful chutzpah. I could ridicule her for it, but part of me secretly admires it from somebody in a party that did so little in government. This country was at the bottom of every conceivable league table, and the previous Government had a scheme that involved raising huge amounts of money from some kind of telephone tax that nobody thought would work. This Government have made the issue an absolute priority.

The hon. Lady is right to make broadband an issue in a green debate. Broadband allows people to work and learn from home, which reduces congestion. The Government also believe that this is a social inclusion issue, however. Broadband will assist people who are old, ill, mentally ill, out of work or on a low income, particularly those who live in remote communities, out of all proportion to any other factor in their lives. It is therefore absolutely right to include it in this debate, and I am very happy to talk about the investment that we are making, including the £530 million that is being spent through Broadband Delivery UK and the £20 million that has been geared up from DEFRA’s funds for the hard-to-reach in our most rural communities, as well as the £150 million recently announced by the Chancellor to assist the roll-out of mobile 4G access, which can provide coverage for broadband on mobile phone networks. That is also very good news.

The hon. Lady also made some interesting points about the five-point plan for growth and jobs, but it would simply add to the scale of debt. How can we deal with the debt problem by adding to it? Nothing should add to our debt. The shadow Chancellor’s five-point plan would not be a way of gearing up jobs and growth in the green economy or in any other. As in so many areas, Labour Members have absolutely no credibility when they talk about the economy.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Spending more, particularly in labour-intensive areas such as those we are debating today, would generate far more, through the multiplier effect, than the original investment, which we would get back through taxation.

[Richard Benyon]

I do not want to get into a long economic debate, but the hon. Gentleman is right in one sense. Green growth, if we do it right, could create jobs. I am afraid that I do not agree with the suggestion by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that this is an entirely binary issue involving either growth or the environment. The Government firmly believe that the two go together, and our policies reflect that.

The Government have an ambitious programme to protect and enhance our natural environment. Given the unprecedented financial difficulties, we cannot simply pull the financial levers to deliver change. Instead, we are committed to leading by example, being the greenest Government ever, mainstreaming sustainable development and enabling the value of the natural environment and biodiversity to be reflected when decisions are made. In the past 17 months, we have made good progress. We have a strong track record of environmental leadership, at home and internationally. We have published the national eco-system assessment, the first analysis of the benefits that the UK’s natural environment provides to society and to our continuing economic prosperity. This is ground-breaking research from over 500 UK scientists and economists, and the UK is the world leader in this regard.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

Does the Minister foresee a time when natural capital will form part of the national accounts in the same way that other capital assets now do?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is prescient; I am about to come to that point.

We have published the cross-government natural environment White Paper, the first in 20 years. It seeks to put the value of nature at the heart of our decision making in Government, local communities and businesses, properly valuing the economic and social benefits of a healthy natural environment while continuing to recognise nature’s intrinsic value. It set out 92 commitments, and we published an update on progress earlier this month. This has made us a world leader in this field.

[Kerry McCarthy]

The Minister has just mentioned the natural environment White Paper. What does he think of the criticism of the White Paper, and of the “England Biodiversity Strategy: Biodiversity 2020”, by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which stated recently that

“both are singularly lacking in implementation plans”,

and that

“we need more than fine words, we need a clear delivery plan and we need it soon”?

Are the Government not simply giving us more greenwash, to give the impression that they are the greenest Government ever?

[Richard Benyon]

I think the hon. Lady shows a churlishness that is not in her character. She is usually among the most generous of Members. May I suggest that she looks at the natural environment White Paper and its 92 commitments and understands how we are valuing nature as part of how government works. I am happy to quote the recent remarks of the Chancellor who said:

“we need to know what the problem is before we can set about finding a solution. Better and fuller information is a crucial…step towards promoting environmental sustainability.”

He was talking about accounting for sustainability, and getting natural capital hardwired into Government at every level has been a crucial part of taking forward this work through the natural environment White Paper, which I commend to hon. Members.

[Andrew George]

May I interpret the last intervention as a constructive contribution, indicating that the Labour party wishes to engage with the issue of biodiversity? Biodiversity standards fell during the 13 years of the last Government. All the parties need to work on the biodiversity strategy and, indeed, on the natural environment White Paper and attempt to improve those standards. That is what I believe all the parties should be doing in the forthcoming year.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Let me say with absolute clarity that we want to reverse the decline of biodiversity in this country, not just because we value nature in its esoteric sense, but because we value it in its economic sense as well. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working with organisations like the RSPB and many others to try to ensure that the strategies we have brought forward are effective and workable. The indicators suggest that, with the right commitment, we can achieve this.

[Zac Goldsmith]

rose—

[Mr Sheerman]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I have promised my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), but if he will forgive me, I will give way first to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman).

[Mr Sheerman]

The Minister will know that Members of all parties care very much about the environment. I know we sometimes play games of point scoring, but one thing that the Minister should be very cautious about today is mentioning the name of the Chancellor. Members of all parties are worried about his recent remarks, as he seems to be undermining the green agenda that many of us thought was refreshing. The Minister, not us, brought up the point about the Chancellor.

[Richard Benyon]

I urge the hon. Gentleman, whom I respect on this subject, to look at exactly what the Chancellor is doing. He should look at the £3 billion that the Treasury has invested in the green investment bank and at the commitment we have made on a whole range of other issues. I can assure him that if he did, his concerns would be allayed.

[Zac Goldsmith]

Learning how to value ecosystems is a prerequisite for tackling the loss of biodiversity and the environmental crisis generally. I am not often accused by colleagues of sycophancy, but I do want to say that the work in the natural environment White Paper puts us ahead of almost any other country in the world. It is work that should be absolutely commended and celebrated across the board.

[Richard Benyon]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, and I hope that Labour Members were listening to what he said.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

I will give way, but then I want to make some progress.

[Gavin Shuker]

The Minister is extremely generous in allowing interventions. I was initially trying to be well behaved and not to intervene on him, but I would like to echo the comment that the natural environment White Paper is fine in and of itself. There will be consensus about biodiversity—an issue about which I believe the Minister feels strongly—across the House. The key issue, however, is resource. There are many environmental and local groups applying to get funding to do the things that are set out in the White Paper, but only £7.5 million has been put behind it.

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about our nature improvement areas, and I would be happy to talk further to him about them and about the level of our ambition, which exceeds that of the previous Government. There is no money left, as someone once said when he left a note in a desk. I have to remind the hon. Gentleman of that, but we have made biodiversity and reversing its decline an absolute priority—both for this Department and the Government.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I am sorry, but I really must make some progress.

We will shortly publish our White Paper on water, which will set out how we want to reform the water industry and address the need for resilience to drought and climate change. A few weeks ago I stood on the bed of the River Kennet, which was as dry as the carpet in the Chamber. It is one of the “rivers on the edge” identified by the World Wildlife fund and is one of the most precious ecosystems in the south of England, although there are many more. Many Members represent constituencies where there are serious concerns about the decline of river quality. We will explain in the water White Paper how we seek to address the problem. We will consider not just the narrow issues involved in that particular stretch of water, but the entire catchment. We will take account of the calls on water, the loss of water from those precious ecosystems, and how we can manage the situation in future.

[David Wright]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will make a bit of progress. Many other Members wish to speak in the debate.

We are implementing the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, which was mentioned earlier, and creating new marine conservation zones around our coast. Let me tell those who talk of the checklist that may have found its way into the motion that that item is flagged as a red, and is very much ongoing. We are adhering to the timetable that was set by the hon. Member for Ogmore when he was a Minister. We are determined to complete the task, and to create an ecologically coherent network of conservation zones around our coast.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

Is it a quick one?

[Paul Flynn]

It is a question that involves all the devolved Assemblies, especially the Welsh Assembly, where all parties are enthusiastic about marine development, but are hamstrung by restrictions that prevent them from organising even pilot projects in Pembrokeshire without the say-so of the national Government. Is it not time that the Government put their devotion to localism into action, and allowed the Assemblies to implement robust environmental policies?

[Richard Benyon]

I am afraid that I simply do not recognise that situation. We met Ministers from the devolved Assemblies this week, and discussed the way in which we are approaching the management of our seas and other policies, in the context of Europe but also nationally. I have worked closely with those Ministers, but I have heard none of them suggest that our parliamentary activities are limiting their ability to control their own environments.

We have also successfully defended the moratorium on commercial whaling. Many may not consider that to be a massive issue, but our constituents certainly do, and I think that the House should recognise the excellent work done by DEFRA officials. I bear the scars on my back from attending two meetings of the International Whaling Commission, and the fact that the British Government have led in making that organisation fit for the 21st century is to our credit. We have contributed £100 million to protect international forests, and the Secretary of State is working closely with Brazil to secure the best use of those funds. As we build on the wonderful achievements made in Nagoya we see real benefits, and Britain’s standing in regard to those and other issues in the international forum has been enhanced in recent months.

The Government’s economic policy objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth that is more evenly shared across the country and between industries. The Treasury is committed to that, and has made important progress on a range of green initiatives. It has fulfilled the Government’s commitment to introducing a carbon price floor—a world first—as the basis of an innovative and economically ambitious green policy. This year’s Budget outlined the Government’s commitment to green investment, making £3 billion available for the green investment bank over the next four years. That will provide a lever for £15 billion of private investment in green technologies, a fact that was tragically missing from the speech of the hon. Member for Wakefield.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way.

[Hon. Members]

You have only just come into the Chamber!

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman has only just arrived, but it is up to the Minister to give way if he wishes to do so.

[Nicholas Soames]

I apologise to the House and to the Minister for asking to intervene when I have only just arrived. I hope that the House will forgive me. I have been at a meeting of the 1922 Committee.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he has been doing. May I ask him to cast a particular eye over the very serious environmental problem of the gross over-extraction of water from rivers in general and in particular from chalk streams, which are waters of international renown and importance in this country? Will he tell us what level of extraction he considers acceptable?

[Richard Benyon]

I have already said that we will address that in the near future in the water White Paper. We are determined to comply with directives, because that is what we all have to do, but we are also more ambitious, in that we want our aquatic environment to be restored. That legacy will be difficult to achieve, but we can achieve it. We can secure huge improvements in biodiversity and ecosystems by just making some changes. It is not easy to change abstraction when large numbers of people rely on the water in question for their daily lives, but this can be done, and it will be done under this Government.

[David Wright]

What discussions has the Minister had with Department for Communities and Local Government Ministers about the use of grey water produced in urban environments? That is of key importance. The right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) made a good point about the level of water abstraction in the UK, but what we are not very good at—whereas other countries in the European Union and around the world are good at this—is using grey water in the built environment and recycling it.

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We are determined to address this issue from both ends of the pipe, as it were. We must look not only at abstraction and how we can incentivise water companies to share water with neighbouring companies, but at how we can incentivise and encourage individuals and households. A recent “Panorama” programme showed what can be achieved by households; by doing just a few things, they can reduce the amount of water they use and protect the environment.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

Does the Minister intend to look at building regulations, on which the UK is decades behind some other European countries, particularly in respect of the reuse of water?

[Richard Benyon]

We are consulting DCLG colleagues on that and a variety of different issues. I recently visited the Building Research Establishment at Watford. Amazing work is being done there on grey-water systems and how households can use much less water. We want to take those ideas forward, and we will keep the House informed as we do so.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

On the green investment bank, may I point out that the largest manufacturing area outside London is Yorkshire? A quarter of the nation’s energy is produced in Yorkshire. Yorkshire stands ready—manufacturers, councillors, universities—to work with the green investment bank. Will the Minister give us more details of what exactly it will be doing, and what role Yorkshire can play in making sure we take forward the green revolution?

[Richard Benyon]

My experience in this House is that Yorkshire MPs believe that life starts and finishes in Yorkshire, and I am sure the green investment bank will find a way of investing in my hon. Friend’s constituency—and elsewhere. We will come to the House with more details in the near future.

We were talking earlier about whether the concepts of green and growth were complementary or at odds with each other. We firmly believe they are complementary. The environment is an economic issue. Better management of natural resources is a financial and environmental opportunity. That is recognised by the Government and leading businesses. The waste review and the natural environment White Paper underline that by putting resource efficiency and the natural environment at the heart of economic growth.

Broader initiatives either already delivered or in the pipeline include electricity market reform, the renewable heat incentive and the green deal, which is the largest retrofit project. The Government also have an initiative, “Enabling the transition to a green economy”, which is being led by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DECC and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It brings together under one heading all of our ambitions and plans for moving towards a green economy.

To help in that, we have set up the Green Economy Council, chaired by the Secretaries of State for BIS, DEFRA and DECC, which brings together more than 20 business leaders from leading businesses and business groups ranging from Ford to Waitrose. It provides an open forum for business to work with Government to address the challenges of creating the green economy and to facilitate growth opportunities.

I wish to highlight two ways in which we are hard-wiring natural capital across government, and I referred to that in passing earlier. We are working with the Office for National Statistics to include natural capital in the UK environmental accounts. We are also setting up a natural capital committee—an independent advisory committee reporting to the Economic Affairs Committee—to provide expert advice on the state of England’s natural capital. We will be advertising for a chair and members this year.

That develops one of the key objectives put forward by GLOBE International—my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) are such able vice-chairmen for that organisation. We are also establishing a business-led ecosystems market taskforce to review the opportunities for UK business from expanding green goods, services, products, investment vehicles and markets, which value and protect nature’s services.

I shall now move on to more specific issues. Earlier this year, we published our waste review, which is a comprehensive look at prevention, reuse, recycling, recovery and disposal, aiming for a zero-waste economy. It provides a broader picture than recycling targets and sets us on a path towards a greener, more innovative economy that values waste as a resource and an opportunity for jobs.

[Joan Ruddock]

May I make a suggestion to the Minister? He will know that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is going to make millions of pounds available to local authorities to return to weekly collections, which they departed from in order to boost recycling. As the Minister will know, food is one of the main issues to deal with, so why does he not make representations to the Communities Secretary to say that money should be provided to those local authorities, such as my local Lewisham council, that have weekly collections but could expand, if they had the money, into food collections? That would have enormous benefits, including job creation.

[Richard Benyon]

The right hon. Lady is right to say that there are huge benefits if we get this right. We are working not only to deal with food waste—to encourage people to buy less and to waste less food—but to make sure that what waste food there is can be used in a constructive way. That is why our policies on anaerobic digestion have huge potential, not just for a municipal approach to this issue, but, for example, for the farming industry as a way of diversifying its business. So I assure her that we are talking, and will continue to talk, to people right across government to ensure a joined-up approach. I respect her knowledge on this matter.

I spoke earlier about broadband, but I wish to emphasise that it is an absolute priority for this Government, as it will make the difference to our rural community. Our economy will be enhanced in a sustainable way for the future when we are able to have creative industries operating in remote parts of the country.

We expect to be able to deliver better flood and coastal erosion protection to 145,000 households by March 2015. Despite spending reductions, no schemes have been cancelled. That is an important point for the hon. Member for Wakefield to understand. We expect to spend at least £2.1 billion on tackling flooding and coastal erosion over the next four years. We expect to spend this money better than it has been in the past and to do so in an open way, where local communities can really see how it is operating.

On mandatory carbon reporting for companies, we have consulted widely over the summer on whether we should introduce regulations in this area. We need to be clear that these regulations are the best way forward, and the Secretary of State will announce the outcome to the House this autumn.

To conclude, the Government are proud of what we have achieved thus far. We have been in government for only 17 months and there is a huge amount to achieve, but I am certain that we can achieve it. I ask the House not to support the motion, because I believe that what I have told the House this afternoon has shown that we are ambitious for more and that we can achieve enormous benefits for our economy by thinking in terms of the environment and the economy together. We hope to do that as we move forward.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, may I say that we are very short on time and I am going to introduce a five-minute limit?

17:35

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

We have heard a lot of words in the past 35 minutes, but, frankly, not a lot of substance. Being green is very fashionable these days and has been for some time. The Conservative party even changed the colour of its logo to green from blue, but if the verdict of many voluntary groups is correct, perhaps the party will have to change it back to blue again before long. At one point in my election campaign I stood at hustings that had been called by a group of charities and pressure groups on environmental issues and I was struck by how dull it was because there was apparently very little divergence of opinion.

Of course, what matters is not what one says but what one does in practice, and I put it to the Minister that he could be more ambitious. For example, even on the simple issue of recycling targets, Scotland and Wales both have more ambitious targets than his Department. In Scotland, the target is to reach 60% by 2020 and 70% by 2025. I believe that if we do not have targets, we will not be inspired to make the effort. A lot has been said about targets by the Conservative party and it has become almost a mantra, or a statement as though it is a fact, that targets are somehow a bad thing. We hear far too much about how bad top-down targets are supposed to be, but targets have proven to be extremely effective in pushing people into reaching the ends they say they want. Without targets those ends might not be reached. It is disappointing that the examples set by Scotland and Wales are not being followed in the rest of the country. There is a knock-on effect for jobs and economic growth, because the kind of relatively small-scale industry that we all say we want can be built up on the back of better recycling.

Another thing we have heard an awful lot about from the Government is the notion of nudge theory and how important it is to nudge people in a particular direction. However, I cannot understand how nudging people to revert to weekly bin collections, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) has mentioned, can be a nudge in the right direction. It must surely be a nudge in the wrong direction. There should be financial support for better reuse and recycling. I do not want to say that recycling is the only thing because it is important to reuse and I would love it if industries here were encouraged to reuse bottles, for example, as happens in many European countries, rather than our simply smashing them into the recycling bin, fun though that is for children in particular. If we do not put investment in, rather than doing the opposite, we will be heading in the wrong direction.

I did not really hear from the Minister what the Government plan to do about mandatory carbon reporting. We have had consultation, despite the fact that the parties in the coalition Government seemed very keen on carbon reporting when they were in opposition, and we have heard that there is going to be some sort of statement in the autumn. In my part of the world, although perhaps not in the warmer south-east, autumn is rapidly running out and it would be helpful to know what the Government’s real thinking is on this.

Another thing that worries many Opposition Members and people out in the country is the Government’s dedication to things such as the red tape challenge. People worry that the concentration on that approach means that many very important regulations, which are needed, will be done away with. Government Front Benchers are shaking their heads but why take that approach and why make such a big thing of it? It is interesting that whenever anything goes wrong people call for more regulation, not less; we should not be throwing away very valuable environmental regulations.

17:39

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I am a little troubled by the idea that the Opposition are presenting their policies to be quite so idyllic. My experience as a Cumbrian MP is that when one looks at a village such as Bampton in my constituency, what one sees is neglect. The past 10 years have seen, if I look to the left, that we suddenly have inedible grass on our hillside because the stocking levels have become too low. We have cows dying unnecessarily of bovine TB. We have an absence of affordable housing in our villages because of rigid planning regulations, and we have worse mobile coverage in Cumbria than in Kabul and extremely ineffective broadband coverage.

In every single respect, the problem—this goes to the heart of the motion—has not been a lack of cash. The problem with the policies pursued has been that they have been too centralised in London, too inflexible and too black and white, and they have failed correctly to engage with communities and businesses.

[Mary Creagh]

I saw an interesting article a couple of weeks ago in Farmers Guardian or Farmers Weekly, which I read assiduously, about bovine TB. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that bovine TB in his area is not endemic in the badger population, and that it has come from the movement and transmission of cattle?

[Rory Stewart]

I shall take up that point, as it illustrates the four aspects that I identified. What we need and what the Government are providing is more courage, which goes to bovine TB, more work with communities, more ability to confront vested interests and more creativity.

On courage with respect to bovine TB, what is the fundamental problem with bovine TB in Cumbria? It is not badgers, as the hon. Lady says. It is that for 13 years the previous Government were not prepared to talk honestly to farmers about the fact that the TB getting into our herds is coming from cattle movement. The answer should come from a better attitude towards movement and linked holdings, and a better attitude towards post-movement testing. Scotland has shown the example. We should have had the courage in areas such as Cumbria, which are still safe and where TB is not endemic, to have effectively moved that border south.

That leads to the second element—working with communities. Again, the solution to the lack of affordable housing in our area, the solution to planning in our area, and the solution to renewable energy, particularly hydro-generation, lies in working much more flexibly with communities. We have just built 22 affordable homes in a rural area by allowing the community of Crosby Ravensworth to do its own planning. We are doing barn conversions up and down the east side of Cumbria by listening to communities who want houses for farmers’ children and have been unable to provide them because of rigid centralised planning regulations.

There has been a failure to confront vested interests—a failure to confront supermarkets over contracts, a failure to confront supermarkets over planning, and sometimes a failure to confront certain elements and lobbies within the farming interests, which connects to the issue of bovine TB. The solution is not only to engage with communities and not only to be more courageous, but to be more creative, which brings us to broadband and mobile telephone coverage.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

There is another problem—the direct and, I suggest, deliberate skewing of Government funding to urban areas in the name of deprivation, and away from rural areas. The average grant per head in rural areas is 50% less than in urban areas at the end of 10 years of Labour, average incomes are lower and the average council tax is 100% higher. People are poorer, they pay more and get less, and that needs to be put right.

[Rory Stewart]

I agree, but to continue to develop the point, it is not simply a matter of cash. The point is creativity. On broadband, the problem with the Cornish project implemented by the previous Government with enormous generosity was its inflexibility—£100 million spent on a region with half the surface area of Cumbria. Were we to try to pursue broadband on that basis, we would spend £42 billion in this country, instead of which, by using communities that are prepared to dig their own trenches and to waive wayleaves, and by pushing commercial providers to innovate in their technical delivery, whether it is cellular delivery, a point-to-point microwave link or a fibre optic cable, means that in Cumbria, with any luck, and touching wood, we should be able to achieve results at least as good as those in Cornwall for about a quarter of the price.

The same is true of mobile coverage. The Ofcom target of 95%, which was set under the previous Government, was not ambitious enough and the costs to rural communities were extreme. By pushing up the coverage obligation, providing £150 million—not a very large amount—for building more masts and, most importantly, confronting the producer interest, meaning the mobile phone companies, which used to be their stock in trade, and compelling them to provide the coverage that they are reluctant to provide outside urban areas, we should now be able to achieve coverage of 98% to 99%.

The economic benefit of all that to rural areas would be immense. There would be a GDP benefit to small businesses and health and education benefits for remote rural areas. All the health, prosperity and vigour that that would bring those communities would allow the delivery of exactly the environmental projects that the Opposition hold so dear. Prosperous and vibrant rural communities will allow farmers, who are often the people in whom we vest responsibility for the environmental projects, to deliver them.

In conclusion, the fundamental mistake in the Opposition’s motion is not their objectives or what they feel ought to be done, but the methods they propose. I am afraid that those methods are dependent on a large deployment of cash, which is what I call the Cornwall approach. Instead, I believe that this Government have brought, as I am proud to see in rural Cumbria, the right focus on communities, the right creativity and the right ability to confront and to show courage, which hopefully means that the next time I look out of my window in my constituency, when I return there tomorrow, I will see affordable housing being built, broadband going into the ground, mobile coverage emerging, healthier cows and a more prosperous farming community that can support all the environmental targets we hold dear.

17:46

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I am pleased that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) has drawn attention to the supermarkets, because I am disturbed by the fact that the Government have failed to listen to the concerns of farmers and consumer groups, who want the groceries code adjudicator to have sufficient powers to tackle any abuses by major retailers. The Government have already delayed Labour’s plans for a supermarket ombudsman, and it now looks like a groceries code adjudicator will not be in place until 2013 at the earliest, about which some of my constituents are very concerned. If we addressed the problem of packaging and waste in supermarkets, and if supermarkets were as efficient as industries such as the steel industry in avoiding waste and recycling materials such as grey water, our situation would be much more sustainable.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I very much support the idea of a supermarket ombudsman. Would the ombudsman also look at how supermarkets use their purchasing power to force down producer prices, particularly in British agriculture, and use the savings to inflate their profits rather than passing them on to consumers?

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Those are the concerns that a Government who are attempting to be the greenest Government ever should be addressing. Sadly, this Tory Government are out of touch on the environment. The rows over planning, the forest sell-off, a 27% cut in flood defence investment, delays to the water White Paper and a complete lack of ambition on recycling, which the Minister seemed almost proud of, show that the Government are behind the curve on environmental protection and green growth. Their claim to be the greenest Government ever has unravelled in just 18 months. The Tories have a plan for cuts, but no plan for the environment. DEFRA cannot even ban wild animals from circuses, which is not a great deal to ask.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

I know that beneath the new Whip’s bluster there is a decent, honourable and reasonable person. One of the most pleasant aspects of the Minister’s speech today was that he did not once seek to describe or excoriate the performance of the previous Labour Government, which he barely talked about. He focused almost entirely on this Government’s policies. I ask the hon. Gentleman to throw away the Labour Whip’s handbook, despite his new job, and to be positive by talking about what can be done, rather than focusing endlessly on this negative stuff.

[Nic Dakin]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have great regard. He has added “excoriate” to “prescient” and “canard” in the lexicon that we are being treated to this afternoon, but I fear that he was listening to a different speech from that which I heard.

Twenty-nine leading conservation charities, in their “Nature Check” analysis published this month, have criticised the Government for failing to show leadership on the natural environment. In their fair and balanced conclusion, they say:

“Whilst the Coalition has done well as a champion for the natural environment on the international stage”—

so, ticking the box there—

“at home its commitment to being the ‘greenest Government ever’ is in danger of being undermined. This assessment raises profound questions over the Government’s ability and willingness to deliver its green commitments, let alone to set out a long-term, coherent strategy to reverse biodiversity decline by 2020 and meet the needs of the natural environment alongside economy recovery.”

So, when it comes to delivery, there are serious questions.

Let us look at some key figures, which the RSPB has drawn from recent reports, on the level of the challenge. It states that

“43% of priority habitat and 31% of priority habitats in England are declining; 304 species in England were red-listed in 2007, because of severe decline (more than 50% loss over 25 years) more would be added by an audit today; and less than 37% of SSSIs in England…are in a favourable condition.”

That illustrates the challenge and need with which we are confronted.

Business wants certainty to invest in green jobs and new technology, yet this Tory Government are failing to provide the certainty that industry needs—[Hon. Members: “Coalition.”] I tend to think of the coalition as a Conservative Government. That is what we see all the time when Members go through the Lobbies.

There was much progress under the Labour Government, but there is still much more to make, and that is the challenge for a new Government—to pick the baton up and take the race forward. I am afraid that the Conservatives, however, threaten much of the progress that Labour made on green growth, sustainable development and the environment. They have left a trail of broken green promises. Since the time of the huskies, we have had almost a “For Sale” sign up over many of our natural assets, and support for public access and enjoyment of the countryside has weakened. Things to which people should have a right are challenged and are in danger because of this Government’s position.

Labour created two new national parks, which is great witness of Labour’s commitment. The Tories, on the other hand, have cut funding by 28.5%, meaning that visitor centres will close, parking charges will rise and nature trails will be left unkempt. This is a serious time for the environment, so it is time for the Government to step up to the plate and deliver for it, both in this country and internationally.

17:49

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate and vigorously to oppose this motion. I am delighted to see so many Opposition Back Benchers in the Chamber—three times more at its start than there were for the entire NHS debate. This is a welcome conversion, given that when elections to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee were held, not a single Labour Back Bencher put themselves forward for it until later rounds.

I want to focus on recycling. I pop up every now and again when Opposition Front Benchers talk about it, and it frustrates me, because we can have as much aspiration as we like. I would love to lose 7 stone, and I did once before, but it does not mean anything if I do not actually deliver. The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) referred to recycling rates, which rose from 11% at the start of her Government to 40%. Let us have some Top Trumps in our recycling rates. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), who is no longer in her place, introduced a private Member’s Bill. The recycling rate for her council is 16.8%. In Wakefield it is 39.1%. In Ogmore, which is split between two councils, it is 33.5% in Bridgend and 36.9% in Rhondda. They are all Labour councils. In Luton it is 35.8% and in East Lothian is it 35.4%. The figures get better when we move to the shadow Department of Energy and Climate Change team. In the shadow Secretary of State’s constituency the recycling rate is 27.5%, In the shadow Minister’s constituency in Liverpool, it is 25.4%. In South Lanarkshire it is 40.1%—[Interruption.]

The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) asks whether there is a point to those figures. Yes, there is, because I am about to read out the recycling rates for Conservative-controlled councils, which actually deliver. The figures that I gave had in common the fact that they are mainly Labour-controlled, apart from one, which is a Scottish National party coalition.

The rate in my council in 2010 was 51.8%, which leapt to 60.7% in the following six months. In Waveney, which the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) will visit on Friday—I am sure he will have a nice time there—it is 53.2%, so perhaps he will learn about the three-bin scheme that has been introduced to ensure that there are weekly food collections. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford should be aware that she can apply to the Department for Communities and Local Government fund to ensure that those collections continue.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The hon. Lady claims that Waveney is a Tory area. At the moment it has a Conservative MP, but it had a splendid Labour MP for the previous 14 years, and it currently has a hung council, which is effectively Labour-controlled.

[Dr Coffey]

The hon. Gentleman is incorrect. My point is that aspirational targets may be set by the Government, but councils deliver. Waveney was Conservative-controlled when making that change, and is still Conservative-controlled.

[Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)]

Ipswich, which until May was run by a coalition between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives, achieved more in the five years of coalition control in raising recycling rates than during nearly 30 years before that when it was Labour-controlled.

[Dr Coffey]

My hon. Friend and neighbour is absolutely right. I will continue with the Top Trumps challenge, and turn to those on the Conservative Front Bench. In Solihull the recycling rate is 40.7%; in South Cambridgeshire it is 53.6%. West Berkshire has the lowest rate of the areas represented by the Department’s Ministers, but it is still 40.2%. In the constituency of the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) it is 43.1%. I forgot to mention Edinburgh, East where the rate is 31.5%.

There is no point in a lot of hot air about aspirational targets if local councils do not deliver. We encourage our councils to get on with the programmes, to be innovative locally, and to ensure that they happen. Conservative Members are proud to go back to our councils and to talk about recycling rates of 60%, but on the other side of the Thames, where MPs are championing recycling, their councils are delivering very little.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend believe that the Labour party’s bin taxes would have encouraged recycling?

[Dr Coffey]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He makes a good point, and the answer is absolutely not. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) referred to nudge activity, but incentivising people to do the right thing has worked. The punitive measures proposed by the previous Government did not have that effect.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I would like the hon. Lady to put on record the fact that Edinburgh council has been run by a Liberal Democrat-Scottish National party coalition for the past four and a half years.

[Dr Coffey]

I said that there were SNP-Liberal Democrat coalitions, as is the case with East Lothian council.

My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) spoke eloquently about rural broadband and ambitions. We all recall the 3G auction, when £22 billion was raised. If half of that had been used, we would have had fibre optics to every house in the country 10 years ago. That is the kind of ambition that we need, and will have, with this Government, who put their money where their mouth is with the £530 million to be spent within the next four years. The Minister may not have recalled that DEFRA also set aside a smaller, £20 million fund to enable communities, especially rural communities, to access broadband now and not necessarily wait until the 2015 target date.

Other Members have talked about the green investment bank and the capital cuts. I accept that, as the hon. Member for Ogmore said, the Labour Government did not commit specifically to a reduction in flood defence spending. However, Labour Members who were Members in the previous Parliament voted in the 2010 Budget for a 50% cut in capital spending. It is correct, as the hon. Gentleman said, that they had not specified where that cut would take place, but nor had they set out a comprehensive spending review. That lack of transparency is one of the reasons the previous Government were thrown out of office fairly decisively.

I have not yet mentioned my favourite topic—coastal erosion. I am delighted to say that since the Minister came to my constituency and pulled people together, local environment agencies, Natural England and communities have been working together to ensure that, with community contributions, we have funded coastal defences in Thorpeness and the scheme in Felixstowe, and we are now enjoying the benefits of that. I am very proud to be on the Government side of the House, and I will vote most strongly against the motion.

18:01

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

I want to focus on three aspects of the motion: the sell-off of forests, which, despite the Government’s U-turn and nice warm words, is still going ahead, including in my constituency; the Government’s nonsensical approach to waste; and the broken promises to communities up and down the country on flood defences.

My constituency, like that of my neighbour, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), is a large rural constituency with many lowland and upland farms. It has two areas of outstanding natural beauty, and many acres of moorland and forest. What DEFRA does matters to people in my constituency, and so does what DEFRA does not do. In the countryside, we have had, in effect, 18 wasted months and a trail of broken promises. First, we had the proposal to sell off forests. Despite the Government’s U-turns and all the nice warm words that were said in this House, the Government are still planning to sell off 40,000 hectares of land over the next four years, some of it in my constituency. Ministers got away with it last time, but they will not do so this time. On Monday night, I listened to many impassioned speeches by Conservative Members saying, “I have to vote for this EU referendum because my constituents have been in touch with me and told me that I need to.” Their constituents got in touch with them in droves in response to the sell-off forests, and yet it is still happening.

I accept that the mess that now exists around waste is not really of DEFRA’s making, but lies at the door of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government—a man who seems to be obsessed with little other than bin collections. The Government have failed to set ambitious targets for recycling in England, and—this is a capital offence—they have stopped Labour’s ban on wood going to landfill, saying that they will think about it again in 2012. Frankly, that is not good enough. I live in the former Derwentside district council area, which is now part of Durham county unitary authority, and we left weekly bin collections behind years ago. There was a lot of upset at the time—people do not like change—but if Durham county council tried to reintroduce weekly bin collections now, people would be incredibly unhappy.

I have three bins—one for waste; one for recycling, which gets emptied fortnightly; and one for garden waste, which is collected monthly—and guess what, I do not have rats and vermin skulking around my bins. My neighbours and I recycle everything we can, and we are proud of our recycling. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) gave us a long list of councils and their actual recycling levels as opposed to the targets. None of us in this House is responsible for that, but I am responsible for my own recycling and the waste that is produced in my house.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

I understand that the hon. Lady and I cannot control the recycling rates of our councils, but it seems odd that people always complain to the Government when it is councils that deliver that service. My challenge is that we must encourage our councils to recycle as much as they can.

[Pat Glass]

I absolutely agree with that, but it ultimately comes down to us. I do not want weekly bin collections to be restored and nor do any of my neighbours. They are a waste of time and of our natural resources. There is virtually nothing in my waste bin; almost everything goes into the recycling bin. If I can do it, so can everybody else.

[Caroline Lucas]

Does the hon. Lady agree that although recycling is important, it is third on the so-called waste hierarchy? Reusing resources and reducing the number of resources that we use in the first place are also critical. On those matters, we need Government action as well as local authority action.

[Pat Glass]

I absolutely agree. We need a proper strategy on recycling and waste, and we need to stop obsessing about bin collections.

On flood defences, I know that DEFRA has taken a massive 30% cut and that some of that has been passed on to flood defence schemes. The Government have rejected the Pitt report on improving flood defences and have cancelled major schemes that were scheduled to take place in towns and cities such as York, Leeds and Morpeth in Northumberland. That will cause massive concern not only for people who have suffered from flooding in the past, but for anyone who lives in a city or town that had hoped to be included in the flood defence scheme. We all acknowledge—even the Government acknowledge—that the flood risk is growing and that flooding will affect more communities across the country in the future.

In the summer, I was visited in my constituency surgery by constituents who live halfway down Blackhill bank in Consett. They came to see me about flooding. Anyone who knows Consett will know that it is 885 feet above sea level. According to Wikipedia, it is the second highest town in the country. We have never had flooding in places such as Consett before. Those people told me that it is not only water that comes through their house, but black water—sewage. It can take up to two years for home owners and businesses to get back into their properties.

Despite that, flood defence schemes have been cut. That means that many home owners and businesses will no longer be able to get insurance when Labour’s agreement with the insurance industry runs out in 2013, because that agreement was based on continued Government investment in flood defences, not on cuts.

The Government’s strategy on the environment is simply not working. It is not supporting the countryside, it is not delivering for the majority of people in this country, and it will leave communities that are vulnerable to flooding to fend for themselves.

18:07

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) on her contribution. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) on securing this debate, but this subject does not lend itself to the kind of partisan debate that she was hoping for. Frankly, what we should be doing in this Chamber is forming a cross-party alliance of those who agree with this agenda. There are philistines on both sides of the House who do not agree with it—the climate change deniers and those who believe that environmental policies get in the way of economic development. There are also people on both sides of the Chamber who want to engage in a more consensual debate.

This subject does not lend itself to partisan debate because the political cycle does not match the cycles of the natural environment or the investment timetables that are necessary for the delivery of policies such as renewables programmes and broadband development. To prejudge the success or otherwise of the Government after 18 months, when it is far too early to decide whether the natural environment of the UK is better than it was under the previous Government, is frankly a poor partisan point that does not advance the debate.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about having a cross-party approach to the environment. In the last Parliament, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) took two pieces of legislation through the House, the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, that had cross-party consensus and that led to real improvements in the environment.

[Andrew George]

Absolutely, and I am really grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. It takes me on to another point that I wish to make, in response to the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who is no longer in his place. He was bemoaning the lack of progress on the draft Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill, which has cross-party support.

I have to declare an interest, as for the past five years I have chaired the grocery market action group. I have been urging and seeking cross-party support for that Bill. When I started out I was entirely on my own, but I am pleased to say that both the previous Labour Government, latterly, and the Conservatives just before the general election came on board and recognised the importance of ensuring that we get fair dealing in the grocery supply chain. Although that is not directly relevant to our debate on the environment today, it is directly relevant to other matters that Members have raised, including recycling. On that issue and others, we should form cross-party support.

In spite of the very limited time that we have, I cannot allow this moment to go by without responding to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), since he mentioned the great nation of Cornwall and the investment strategy for broadband. It has to be said that there are more than 500,000 people in Cornwall, and its population may not be as dispersed as that of Cumbria. He may well be right that we will be paying Rolls-Royce prices for something that we could be getting a little cheaper, but if the policy is advanced in one rural area, lessons can be learned that will benefit other areas later.

[Rory Stewart]

That is a very fair point, and it is absolutely right that Cornwall got a good deal at the time when it got it. However, the real lesson of that is that we need flexibility and pilots, with one county at a time learning the lessons so that we can drive down the costs and force suppliers to do more and more as they move from Cumbria to Northumbria and around the country. What I said was not intended as a criticism of Cornwall.

[Andrew George]

No, and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for agreeing with me on the matter. Certainly it is not possible to have fibre-optic cable to a cabinet within yards of every home in dispersed rural areas, so we need to ensure that we have an investment profile that allows the use of satellite broadband in certain circumstances. We are learning lessons from the Cornish example, and we have had the benefit of European convergence funding to take the matter forward.

I wish to touch briefly on three more matters—waste, green growth and sustainable development. The Government have rightly put in place a waste review. It is an iterative process that is progressing—perhaps too slowly, but it is certainly progressing. It provides a framework for those who want to engage in the process, as I encourage Members of all parties to do, to make constructive proposals to enhance the Government’s intention to achieve a zero-waste economy. That means sending zero to landfill.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew George]

I do not think I will get any injury time, but I will give way.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman and apologise for that. Everyone is committed to recycling, but recycling itself obviously costs money. How does he see the balance between the necessity of recycling and the cost factor?

[Andrew George]

I see recycling as being part of the green economy, in which jobs are created and there is a massive benefit to the economy in general. When I intervened on the hon. Member for Wakefield, I was simply saying that an obsession with one narrow silo of the waste strategy—the measuring of recycling by the proportion or volume that is achieved—is entirely wrong in an economy such as the UK’s. The amount of waste recycled is a helpful indicator, but it is possible to have increased recycling and increased landfill at the same time. I do not think it is necessarily the measure by which we should judge ourselves, and I encourage Members to consider that carefully.

On green growth, it will take a long time to get the investment profile required to achieve the improvements that we are discussing. We should have a green economy that drives development in this country. The previous Government started that process, and the present Government need to continue it. RenewableUK is identifying itself with a survey out today that says that 80% of its members plan to hire extra staff within the next 18 months, so people are growing in confidence in that regard.

Finally, it is important that we mainstream sustainable development issues. The Public Bodies Bill is well intentioned, but if the intention of planning policy is to promote sustainable development, we need to re-establish the Sustainable Development Commission.

18:15

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate as a former chair of Flood Risk Management Wales—for the five years before coming into Parliament, I was charged with adapting Wales’s flood defences to climate change.

The big picture we face is of global climate change giving rise to a reduction in the land mass of the globe, with the population increasing from 6.8 billion to 9.5 billion by 2050, which will mean food and water shortages, migration and conflict. The Kyoto protocol will come to an end in 2012. The Americans seem to want to let it die on the vine, and the Chinese and Indians want to keep it going, but it is incumbent on us to have a strategy that focuses economic growth along a green trajectory.

On that point, some of the Government’s moves are disappointing. They did not support Sheffield Forgemasters, which could have been a global player in nuclear provision, and they did not support Bombardier to get a foothold in exports, which would have given us a green footprint elsewhere while supporting our economy. The big debate in the Chamber is between cuts and growth, and there is a lot of talk about how Labour left the cupboard bare, but we know from the numbers that a third of the deficit was for investment beyond earnings, and that the rest was for the banks. There should be no apology for that, because that is what stimulated growth.

We have now got rid of growth. The Chancellor announced that half a million jobs would be lost, so people in the public services started saving instead of consuming, and people in the private sector stopped recruiting and investing. The deficit is now £46 billion higher than it would originally have been. That is why the Labour party has proposed a five-point plan on VAT, national insurance and so on. The important part of that plan in this debate is investment in capital assets in flood defences.

The devastating floods in 2007 and Lord Pitt were the engine for the new trajectory of investment in flood defences, which would have provided jobs and capital assets—it would not have been money down the drain. That would have encouraged inward investment and protected neighbourhoods, businesses and homes, so I am saddened that it has been reduced by 27%. We are spending £354 million this year, but that will go down to £259 million. Having worked with the Environment Agency, I know that it would have put that money to good use.

Land is an asset not just for carbon capture and generating oxygen but for tourism, but the Government will sell off 15% of our woodland. Sustainable development is the centrepiece, constitutionally, of the Welsh Assembly Government, but it is seen simply as a healthy option in England. If we are to grow our way out of deficit with a green trajectory, we need to look at emerging consumer markets in the developing countries, such as China or India or those in south America, and reconfigure our export offer around green technology. That does not seem to be happening and the Government do not appear to be proactive.

Big companies are developing products. Tata Steel, near my constituency, is developing a new seven-sheet steel that generates its own electricity and heat; and Boeing in north Wales is introducing new carbon planes, which will be 30% more fuel-efficient. The Government must provide an infrastructure and regulatory system that encourages such innovation, not just to take our economy on a green trajectory but to project us into a global leadership role. I do not see that happening.

It is fairly self-evident that global energy costs will continue to escalate, because the rate of economic growth in China, India and south America means that those countries and areas will consume more of it. Those increases in energy prices, although painful, create new and profitable green technologies. The Government should not take such a laissez-faire approach to that. I fear that when, for instance, the Chancellor scoffs at the Deputy Prime Minister’s ambition for an 80% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050, it sends a signal that he does not take green investment seriously. The risk for Britain is that the Tories will blindly stumble over the green shoots that could be the future of jobs and growth in Britain.

18:20

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to address the House in this fascinating debate, which has drawn two interesting distinctions between the Government and the Opposition: between statism and localism and between non-joined-up and joined-up government. Several policy areas prove those points.

First, I want to talk about the green economy and what is really happening out there. The shadow Secretary of State painted a picture that did not describe the situation in my constituency or, I believe, beyond it. First, we have, or will have soon, the green investment bank, which is a signal change and a very good idea. It will have £3 billion to invest and will be able to capitalise in 2014, which is a fantastic step forward. Ironically, the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) referred to the Dreamliner aeroplane, a fantastic achievement, which is just about to start flying right now and which has created huge numbers of jobs in this country, because we supply 30% of the products.

Those products are, by definition, along the lines of green investment, because they are all about composite materials, lighter materials and so on, which is great news. Many businesses in my constituency are working hard and successfully at developing new innovation and technologies to tackle issues relevant to the green economy, and I am really proud of that. I encourage them, instead of distracting them with assertions that things are not going well and so forth. Of course, we could improve banks’ performance in investment, but we should still salute what is actually happening. There are countless firms in my constituency that I would happily take the shadow Secretary of State to see, if she so wished.

Another important but neglected issue is the green deal, which will make a huge difference to 22 million homes and which is provided for in upcoming legislation. It is extraordinarily important and will help many people to reduce their energy bills and improve their quality of life because their homes will be better places to live in. That, in itself, will stimulate growth and promote more investment across the piece, which is something that we should all welcome. Certainly, businesses in my constituency are pleased that the green deal is about to be launched.

I talked about localism versus statism. Let us explore that with reference to broadband. I do not know what world the shadow Secretary of State was describing, but the one that I found when I was first elected in Stroud was not one where broadband was particularly accessible to anybody in rural areas in my constituency. Things are improving now, first because of the bold decision of the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, who came to my constituency and helped to launch a fantastic campaign to promote further investment in broadband. His wisdom was evident in a pilot scheme in Gloucestershire aimed at getting a grip of the technology and investment—£8 million—needed to start promoting broadband. The key point, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) referred, is that we have to be local and flexible. That is the essence of how we will get more and better broadband in Gloucestershire.

I talked about joined-up government versus non-joined-up government. The Minister, who has responsibility for the natural environment and fisheries, came along to the Environmental Audit Committee and proved that we were joined up by sitting next to the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who has responsibility for development and cities. They were both talking about the national planning policy framework.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman talks about joined-up government, but the Government’s obsession with the red tape challenge means that the Department for Transport has failed to regulate ship-to-ship transfers of oil, which is leaving wildlife and delicate marine environments such as those in my constituency at risk. How is that joined-up government?

[Neil Carmichael]

Doubtless the Department for Transport will deal with that. We have a new Secretary of State, and I look forward to seeing what she does. However, the fact is that joined-up government is important.

The story that I was telling hon. Members about is still relevant, because the Minister was talking about the national environment White Paper—which has been endorsed by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the wildlife trusts and so on—in parallel with the national planning policy framework. That is absolutely excellent and is a true demonstration of effective joined-up government helping to deliver polices that make a difference across rural areas. I welcome that. In the past, we saw a Labour Government who were “siloed”; in the future, we see a coalition Government thinking in terms of Departments working together to produce policies that make a difference.

In an intervention, I talked briefly about flooding, but I want to emphasise the importance of localism with reference—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Unfortunately the clock was not going down as the hon. Gentleman was speaking, so he has had more than his time. I would therefore like him to conclude his remarks.

[Neil Carmichael]

I want to draw the House’s attention to the fantastic work that Water21 is doing to promote flood attenuation in the Slad valley. That is a classic example of good localism, good foresight and how flooding can be dealt with in a different, more imaginative way. It is a tribute to the people of Stroud and every—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I call Caroline Lucas.

18:26

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I am gratified by the extent to which successive Governments have sought to brand themselves as green—after all, imitation is said to be the sincerest form of flattery. However, I also see it as part of my role to scrutinise the authenticity of any promises made and, most importantly, to inquire whether fine and noble rhetoric is backed by fast and ambitious action.

It is important to say at the outset, as the Green party always has, that environmental policies cannot be just bolted on to business as usual. We have always said that to judge the greenness of a Government, we should look not so much at their environmental policies, but at their economic programme. If a Government’s economic policies are simply about promoting more and more conventional economic growth based on the production and consumption of yet more finite resources, it does not really matter how many green trimmings they add to their manifesto. The direction of travel will still be fundamentally unsustainable. Judged by that measure, sadly not one of the main parties has come close to understanding the true nature of green politics.

Therefore, although I welcome the fact that Labour has chosen the Government’s green record as the subject for today’s debate, and although I am heartened by the commitment that I have heard in the Chamber today, it is interesting to contemplate why those aspirations, commitments and statements are not made when we discuss the Budget or growth, for example. In those debates, all the “business as usual” economic arguments are trotted out, as ever. We do not marry up all the nice words about the environment that we have heard today with the arguments that we hear in those economic debates, which is when it really matters. To say that this shows remarkable inconsistency would be a kind way of putting it.

Over a year ago the Prime Minister pledged that this would be the greenest Government ever. The first thing to say about that aspiration is that it is sadly not particularly ambitious, given Labour’s poor record on the environment in the preceding 13 years in office. At the end of that Labour term, the UK was getting more of its energy from fossil fuels than in 1997, when Labour came to power. Everyone rejoices in a sinner who repents, but one cannot help but think that, at best, Labour’s criticism of the Government’s record today shows an almost heroic degree of collective amnesia.

It is significant that one of the first acts of this Government, who aspire to be the greenest ever, was to abolish the very body that could have had a role in judging whether they could achieve that. I refer, of course, to the Sustainable Development Commission—I support the comments that the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) made about that. As a critical friend, the commission was a vital in providing well-informed scrutiny of Government policy. The commission also saved the Treasury around £300 million over 10 years, against running costs of just £4 million a year. The scrapping of that commission undermines the Government’s assertion that they are committed to green issues. It is also the first of many examples of ideology trumping common sense, economic sense and environmental sense.

Much has been said today about the green investment bank, and of course it is a good idea to have such a bank. It is very badly named, however, in that it is not very green and, so far, it is not even a bank. The Government are actively considering using it to subsidise nuclear power, and its wings are being clipped from the outset through insufficient capitalisation and no initial borrowing capacity for several years at least.

I could refer to many other issues, but I would like briefly to mention the complete chaos that the solar industry is now in, thanks to the way in which the Government keep moving the goalposts in relation to the level at which the feed-in tariffs are going to be secured. That is a tragedy not only for the environment but for some of the fantastic solar industries in this country that could be at the forefront of solar power internationally. Because the Government keep changing their level of support, however, the industry has been left in great confusion.

In conclusion, I shall return to my first point. Slavish adherence to the same economic model that has created the economic crisis and the climate crisis will not empower us to build a sustainable future and make the transition to a zero-carbon economy, yet that is what the Government and the Opposition are relying on. Yes, efficiency gains can help, and yes, technology will have a vital role to play, but there is a real risk—which has not been addressed today—that, with a rising population and understandably rising expectations from a growing middle class around the world, those efficiency and technological gains will be undermined by the overall level of net growth. That means that behaviour change will have to be a far greater part of the solution when it comes to adopting sustainable development, yet the dogma that we can carry on with business as usual provided that there is more and more economic growth to get us out of this economic crisis—never mind the long-term environmental, social and economic consequences—is barely questioned by politicians. Professor Tim Jackson states:

“Questioning growth is deemed to be the act of lunatics, idealists and revolutionaries. But question it we must.”

We must—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order.

18:31

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

I should like to associate myself with the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) that this should not really be a political subject, but it does tend to become one. I also want to associate myself with the Minister’s comment that the Opposition had shown chutzpah by holding a debate on green leadership and growth. Given that they have decided to do so, however, it is reasonable to examine what has happened over the past decade and a half, and what kind of legacy Ministers have taken over in relation to green issues.

I want to be fair to the Opposition. They have used the word “leadership” a number of times in the debate, and I have been looking for examples of Labour showing leadership in the past 15 years. It has shown it in one area: that of legislation. No one could have passed more legislation on this subject than Labour. The Climate Change Act 2008 places on us a requirement to reduce the total of our carbon emissions by 80% by 2050. That could be broken up in a number of ways, involving, for example, 25 new nuclear power stations—I do not think that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) would agree with that—or 40,000 wind turbines. It is a hugely ambitious target. Equally ambitious was the way in which the Labour Government signed up to the EU 20-20-20 directive in 2009.

That was where Labour showed leadership, but, having done that, what did they achieve? Where had they got to by 2010? Labour Members need to understand that we are 25th out of 27 in the EU in terms of renewables, as I pointed out earlier. It is possible that that statistic could be subject to challenge, however, because it was based on provisional figures. It puts us slightly ahead of Luxembourg, but it is possible that we are not. Perhaps we are in fact 26th out of 27. That is the legacy from the last Government that we have had to pick up and run with. That is the starting point.

Even less impressive were the numbers that came out, right at the end of 2010, on the total amount of energy produced in this country from non-fossil fuel sources, by which I mean renewables, hydro and nuclear. It fell by 10%. That was the legacy we were left with. Chutzpah is not even half of it. We now have to pick up from that position.

I do not agree with all aspects of the energy policy of my Front-Bench team. I would like us to go more quickly down the nuclear road, but I agree that at least we have a green policy that can be looked at and criticised and that we can try to improve. I do not think that we had that previously. The green deal is massively important. The Climate Change Act 2008 implies a reduction of our total emissions by 2050—either with or without the economic growth that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion does not want us to have—of around 40% to 50%. The green deal provides the only reasonable way of achieving that. The green investment bank and the energy market changes that we are going to make are hugely important.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making some excellent points. The green investment bank, to the tune of nearly £3 billion, is a great step forward. I also think that the green deal will enable those who have not got their homes insulated with solid wall insulation to get that done under the new scheme. That will help many more people to insulate their homes, which will be good not only for the environment but for the families concerned.

[David Mowat]

I agree.

I did not mention the carbon floor price. Having sat through the debate, it remains unclear to me whether Labour Members support it or not.

All these matters are important, and I am proud that the Government whom I support are trying to get us higher up the league table from 25th or 26th out of 27 within the EU. When the Minister sums up, will he tell us where we hope to get to by the end of this Parliament? If we start at 25th, are we heading for 20th, 15th, 10th, fifth or what? It would be interesting to hear, as we have an awfully long way to go.

18:37

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I want to start by taking issue with a couple of Members who said that we should not get political about this issue. First, I would say, “Try telling that to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate change and the Chancellor of the Exchequer”, who seem to be in open warfare in today’s newspapers. Furthermore, this is one of the most crucial political topics we face, and if we wrap it all up in warm words and a coat of greenwash without questioning or challenging some of the progress, we will be in danger of letting the whole agenda slide.

In the limited time available, I would like to focus on a couple of issues. A number of Members have commented on the “Nature Check” survey, which gave the red light to the Government on a range of issues, three of which deal with planning. There is real concern that the Treasury is dominating and overriding the environmental agenda in respect of planning issues. The Budget of 2011 said that

“The Government will introduce a powerful new presumption in favour of sustainable development, so that the default answer to development is ‘yes’.”

We also know that the Chancellor said at the Conservative party conference in Manchester:

“We’re not going to save the planet by putting the country out of business.”

He believed that, rather than leading the way in pushing a green agenda in Europe, we should only rise to the standards of other European countries, which I think is entirely wrong.

Simon Jenkins, the head of the National Trust, gave evidence to a Commons Committee the other day, saying that the “fingerprints” of rich builders were all over the planning reforms, while The Daily Telegraph, which one would expect to be on the side of the Conservative party, talked about an elite forum of property developers who were charging key players in the industry £2,500 a year to set up breakfast, dinner and drinks with senior Tories. This club raises £150,000 a year for the Conservatives. I would appreciate it if the Minister responded to that in his summing up, and explained what influence is being exercised. We have seen the influence of people behind the scenes in health and defence policy and other aspects of the Government’s agenda.

One subject that has not been mentioned much in the context of planning is the new biodiversity offsetting regime. In Bristol, there has been real concern about the local authority’s failure to spend section 106 money. It is estimated that between £10 million and £12 million that should have been allocated to community projects, infrastructure and schools is sitting in the council coffers. As a result, not only will environments that have evolved over centuries and could be described as part of our natural heritage be replaced by artificial new landscapes, but there will be no means of ensuring that the offsetting actually happens and is maintained for many years to come. We need to know whether the regime will be effective, or whether it is just an excuse for developers to be able to destroy natural habitats and the environment. As the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds pointed out, we need a system that filters out habitats that are irreplaceable, as opposed to those that can easily be created elsewhere.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) expressed concern about the lack of certainty in relation to feed-in tariffs. Support has already been scrapped for large-scale projects, and it is rumoured that the Government will announce a halving of tariff rates tomorrow. Let me give an example. The Royal Bath and West of England Society was due to develop a solar photovoltaic park, for which it had already received planning permission and which it wanted to use to kick-start a rural regeneration project that it expected to create about 1,500 jobs. It had structured the project on the basis of the expected revenue from profit on the feed-in tariffs. Critically, it was interested in a loophole provided by the Department for Energy and Climate Change that would have allowed the project to proceed if it plugged in 10% of its electricity generation by 1 August 2012. Thankfully, it had not made a decision before the deadline was moved to 18 October 2010. The chief executive, Dr Jane Guise, told us today that “shifting goalposts” were making it impossible to invest in and plan for the future. She also wondered why the Treasury was involved at all.

I am afraid I have no time to give the House any more information about that, but I urge Members to talk to people who had spent months planning a project that would have brought huge benefit to the local community, but is now being—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Lady’s time is up.

18:42

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

This has been a very good debate in which Members in all parts of the House have made powerful and passionate points. One powerful point made by the Minister, with which I strongly agreed, concerned the welcome news of the publication of the national ecosystems services. I know that he will want to commend that worthy project, and to recognise that it was inspired and developed by Labour. I congratulate him on having brought it to fruition.

The Minister mentioned the fourth carbon budget, which Labour developed under the Climate Change Act 2009. It, too, is welcome, but there are two little opt-outs, to which the Chancellor referred in his review. We shall see how that proceeds.

I commend the Minister for his work with the International Whaling Commission. It is good to know that that work is continuing, and I know that he is committed to it. We have always had a cross-party view on that, and it I am pleased to note that he is still standing firm.

I think that every Member present will welcome the £100 million to protect the rainforest. Curiously and coincidentally, the Minister planned to raise the same amount from selling our forests.

Having heaped praise on our motion, the Minister then said that he would oppose it. I assumed from his praise that he would support it; perhaps he will change his mind.

The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made a very good speech. He spoke well about the need for a focus on biosecurity and cattle movements as a solution to the problem of bovine tuberculosis, and criticised the “Cornwall approach”—much, I think, to the consternation of the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George).

The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) welcomed the number of Labour Members attending the debate, as do I. The Chamber has been full of Labour Members today. In contrast, at one point during yesterday’s debate on the important issue of the Agricultural Wages Board no Conservative Members were present, and then just one was present.

I must correct the hon. Lady on one point. Her long litany of Labour councils included my local council, Bridgend. Bridgend’s recycling rate is not 33%. It was 33% at the end of the rainbow coalition of Plaid Cymru, Tories and Liberal Democrats, but when Labour took control it rose to 51%, the highest in any local authority in Wales. I suggest that the hon. Lady check her figures and ensure that they are up to date. As for the average rate in Wales, it is 45%. She might wish to correct the record at some point.

The hon. Member for St Ives said it was too early to judge this Government, as they have been in office for only 18 months. I refer him to the report by 29 wildlife and countryside charities condemning this Government’s record so far.

I welcome the concept of cross-party engagement. When I was in the Government, we held two cross-party flood summits to work through the issues. That has not happened under the current Government, and I ask the Minister to invite my colleagues to attend such meetings. [Interruption.] He says that has happened, and I accept his assurance, but it is not my understanding.

The hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) painted a very rosy picture of the Government’s green record, but we beg to differ. He talked about the green deal; we hope for the best, but we fear the worst.

I thank the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) for acknowledging my party’s leadership on groundbreaking national and international legislation and obligations, and I extrapolate from his remarks on the slow progress made in the previous decade on renewables, and especially wind, that he supports the building of more onshore wind farms to meet the renewables obligations. I must say, however, that not many of his colleagues share that view.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) questioned the Government’s commitment to the green agenda, and she also questioned Labour’s commitment; I agree with the former remark, but dispute and refute the latter. She accused us and the Government of collective amnesia, but if that is the case it must be catching, as in respect of world leadership on these issues, the Climate Change Act 2008, the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and much else besides were introduced under a Labour Government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) observed that what matters is not what we say, but what we do, and I agree. She drew attention to the low ambition shown by the Government and the high ambition on recycling shown in Wales, and said that the Government had missed an opportunity.

My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) mentioned farmers’ concerns about the delays in dealing with, and diminishing responsibilities of, the groceries code adjudicator, and we agree.

My hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) told Members on the Government Benches to stop obsessing about weekly bin collections and to focus instead on recycling, and she rightly expressed the concerns of her constituents about insurance for flood victims.

My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) has great commitment and expertise in this area, including through his work with the Environment Agency. He expressed regret about the Government’s lack of ambition, which was, indeed, a general theme in the debate.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) picked up on the comments made from the Government Benches that this issue should not be political. However, it is political, of course, by its very nature and because it is very important.

There is a delicious irony in the phrase, “the greenest Government ever”, which was uttered so easily during the coalition’s fleeting embrace of the green movement. It is so easy to say, “I love you”, in the midst of tender fervour. Yet the morning after come the bitter recriminations, the shame and the feeling of being used.

I know that the Minister’s heart is in the right place, so let me direct the following comments to the Secretary of State, who must take personal responsibility for the actions of the Government. If they were a business, they would have been referred to trading standards by now; they would have featured on “Rogue Traders” for ripping off the British public and stealing their votes with their false and overblown promises to be the greenest Government ever.

On forests, the public saw earlier this year how the Government tried to rip them off: coalition failure; on the cuts to flood defences, wasting an opportunity for green growth and jobs, and putting at risk homes, businesses and people: failure; on finding a ban on wild animals in circuses just too difficult: failure; on relegating England to the lowest recycling targets in the UK, missing chances for jobs and new green industries: failure; on their slippy-slidey back-tracking on plans for mandatory reporting of carbon emissions: failure; on the delay to Labour’s plan for universal broadband by 2012: failure; on the delays and the castration of the groceries code adjudicator, letting down farmers and the consumer: failure; on ignoring Labour’s food strategy for 2030, to the consternation of the National Farmers Union and others: failure; on abolishing the Sustainable Development Commission, curtailing independent scrutiny of the Government’s appalling record: failure; on achieving a green light in only two out of 16 traffic lights in the “Nature Check” report by the Wildlife and Countryside Link: failure; and on the Chancellor of the Exchequer commandeering the Government’s green agenda in place of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and then killing it: failure—abject, pitiful, supine, green growth and environmental failure. Fail, fail and fail again; there is a bit of a pattern here.

However, the Government have had success in one area. They have succeeded in splitting the Cabinet from top to toe on their green agenda, with the Chancellor boldly championing the climate-sceptics and deniers, and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pitching his shaky, leaky leadership tent in opposition. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs seems to be wholly absent from the battlefield, and after a lovely photo-shoot with a husky the Prime Minister has shot and eaten the poor creature. Since then, there has, understandably, not even been a whimper from the husky, but, more surprisingly, the incredible silence of the Prime Minister on all issues green since the election has been deafening. After a brief pre-election love-in, he never phones. Why does the Prime Minister not just admit it: the love affair is over, he was never serious anyway and it was just a fling? “Get over it” he might as well say.

This Tory-led coalition Government risk being an environmental and economic catastrophe for this country. Over the past 18 months, when we should have been using green growth to stimulate our flagging economy and to lead on the environmental agenda, as Labour did when we were in government, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has instead allowed her Department to be steamrollered by the Chancellor and ignored by an indifferent Prime Minister. This is not a green agenda. This is a not a growth agenda. It is an agenda of despair. It is not a vision of hope for jobs and nature, but one of hopelessness. We do not have a Department driving forward on Labour’s legacy, but one that is actually in reverse. In place of ambition, we see abject surrender.

Even if they have given up on green growth and the environment, at least the Conservatives can repeat their claim to be the natural party of the countryside and still get away with it, can they not? They cannot after yesterday, when they voted to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board, thus weakening protections for farm workers. There was one—just one—principled Lib Dem Member who participated fully in that debate, changed his mind, to his credit, and voted with our amendment. But the combined weight of fellow Lib Dems and Tories, with one notable exception, defeated us and they defeated farm workers. So who speaks for the countryside, for green growth and for the environment? Labour does, as it always has and always will.

I say to those on the not-so-green Benches opposite that owning large parts of the countryside is not the same as speaking for the countryside. Saying that they are green does not make them green. Talking up green growth is no substitute for making it happen with green jobs and skills, training, innovation and investment. This Government are failing. DEFRA Ministers are failing. Green growth and the natural environment will fail with them. I say to Ministers and the Government that they should change course now and up their game, because the country now and in future generations will not forgive a Government who, at a crucial moment, walked away from the environment and from the opportunities for green growth, upon which the health and wealth of this nation depend. If they are not up to the job, they should walk away from government—we will do it for them.

18:51

[Richard Benyon]

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will address the House again at the conclusion of this superb debate. The last comments made by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) amused me greatly. They sounded desperate. They sounded as if he was in complete denial of the 13 years of failure, of which he was part. I, like my DEFRA colleagues, feel that we are in a Department that deals with emergencies. One of the emergencies we are dealing with is the great sense of failure that the previous Government imposed on the countryside and on the environment. We are having to work our socks off to repair the situation, but it is a challenge that we take and take seriously. We look forward to achieving on it in the coming months.

The Government can show leadership in protecting our environment, which is exactly what this Government are doing. However, the Government alone cannot protect our environment. We believe that having communities, business, civil society and Governments working together is likely to have the greatest impact on protecting and improving our environment. We are providing new opportunities for local people to play a bigger role in protecting and improving the environment in their areas. We have some of the world’s best civil society environmental organisations to help us to protect and improve our natural environment, and we have provided the tools for them to work with us.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Richard Benyon]

No, I will not give way.

We welcome the “Nature Check” report. It is very important that the organisations that took part in it have an edgy relationship with government. They frequently come to the Department and we work closely with them, and we will get green lights on the items as we progress. When that report was produced we had been in government for 15 months, dealing with abject failures created by the hon. Member for Ogmore and the Labour party in government, for which he has to take responsibility.

Let me deal with some of the excellent points made in the debate. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was missing the point. Just dealing with recycling does not deal with the whole waste problem; we need to look at this the whole way up the waste hierarchy. Unlike her Government, we will introduce proposals to ban wood from landfill next year.

I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) on a customary visionary speech. The leadership he is giving in his community on broadband, on local housing initiatives and on improving mobile coverage for his constituents is matched by this Government’s commitment to do the same for rural areas right across this country.

The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) again showed that Labour Members just do not get the whole waste issue. I urge him to look at our waste review and see what we are achieving.

My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) made an excellent speech in which she pointed out the failure of Labour councils. It is councils that deliver and it is coalition party councils that are achieving.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall not give way because the hon. Gentleman has had his time. [Interruption.]

When we consider flooding, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal is in my head because it has proved that there are other ways—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but there is far too much noise in the Chamber, including a large number of private conversations. The Minister must be heard without his having to bellow at the top of his voice.

[Richard Benyon]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

There have been some excellent initiatives all around the country, not least in my hon. Friend’s constituency, that have shown how we can unlock more money for flood relief and coastal erosion resilience. I commend the points she made. The total environment concept that we are rolling out around the country is showing that we can work with local government, other organisations and the wider DEFRA family to achieve a better result for the rural communities she represents.

I remind the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) that when her party was in power it was selling off forests at quite a dramatic rate with very little protection for public access. She said that we have rejected the Pitt report, but nothing could be further from the truth: we have implemented all but one of its recommendations and I had a meeting on that recommendation today.

I appreciated the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George). There is much that is consensual about this debate although it might not feel like it at this precise moment. My right hon. Friends and I had a meeting with Sir John Beddington when we took office and he told us that we had to do something that is hard for politicians to do—look beyond the horizon of four or five years that we are accustomed to looking at in the electoral cycle. What is required is a horizon shift to deal with the possible storm that could be approaching from a shortage of energy, water and food. That requires initiative, vision and a proper approach to these issues; that is what we are doing.

The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made a fascinating speech. It is good to see that deficit denial is alive and well and living in Swansea. What he and others fail to understand is that sustainable development is now mainstream in government; it is not parked in some organisation that is peripheral—it is central to what we do.

I appreciate the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). He is right that what we are looking for is joined-up policies across government. The benefits of localism come from an understanding not just in silos, as it was considered in the past, but with support from across government to the benefit of constituents.

I hope that the scepticism of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) about the green investment bank will wither as we introduce it and she sees its benefits for new green technologies. She talked about business as usual, but this Government are not about business as usual on green technologies. This is about a horizon shift and taking a new approach.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I do not have time—I apologise.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) made an excellent point about the failures of the past that have put us 25th out of 27 in the EU on recycling. We have to improve on that. People ask what our ambition is: it is for a zero-waste economy, which is a high ambition indeed.

The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) talked about dark conspiracies, but I assure her that they do not exist. She should move on from that idea and stop watching those programmes.

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.

The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 302.

18:59

Division 378

Ayes: 0

---

Labour: 215
Plaid Cymru: 3
Alliance: 1
Independent: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

Noes: 0

---

Conservative: 257
Liberal Democrat: 44

Business without Debate

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Delegated legislation

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Health Care and Associated Professions

That the draft Medicines Act 1968 (Pharmacy) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 14 July, be approved.—(Angela Watkinson.)

Question agreed to.

European Union Documents

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),

Financial Interests of European Union (protection)

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 11055/11 and Addendum, relating to the Communication from the Commission on the Protection of the Financial Interests of the European Union by Criminal Law and by Administrative Investigations: An Integrated Policy to Safeguard Taxpayers’ Money; and No. 12141/11 and Addendum, relating to a Communication from the Commission on its Anti-Fraud Strategy; recognises that the UK has a strong interest in preventing criminal activity against EU funds; recalls the Government’s constructive participation in ongoing negotiations to improve the operational efficiency of the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF, and to strengthen its effectiveness; notes that both documents set out initial orientations and that any more detailed, future proposals should be considered on their merits with clear evidence of necessity; emphasises the importance of fully respecting different criminal justice systems within the EU, while pursuing effective cooperation to combat fraudulent use of EU funds; and supports the Government’s ongoing efforts to ensure the effective protection of the EU’s financial interests.—(Angela Watkinson.)

Question agreed to.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your advice. BBC television news this evening reported that at 12 o’clock tomorrow the Secretary of State for Health will announce the closure of accident and emergency and maternity services at King George hospital in my constituency. We have campaigned against that for years, and the Secretary of State should at least have had the courtesy to inform the local Members of Parliament, including the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, and should come before the House to make such a profound statement. Have you had any advice from the Department that the Secretary of State intends to come before the House to make such an announcement?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

The Chair has received no notification of any such statement. Strictly speaking, the matter is not one for the Chair, or for today’s business, but the hon. Gentleman has put his point on the record, and I am sure he will pursue it vigorously. Ministers on the Treasury Bench will have heard his comments.

Petitions

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

19:16

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I wish to present a petition from the Rotherham pensioners action group, led by the group’s chair, Mr Keith Billington of Foster road, Wickersley. I have a petition in similar terms with more than 500 signatures gathered by the group over the weekend of the Rotherham show last month. The petitioners want a better, fairer system of care for the future. They are worried about the crisis in care caused by big Government cuts in funding as pensioners see services cut, charges increase, and support restricted to those with the most critical care needs.

The petition states:

The Petition of Rotherham Pensioners' Action Group,

Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about social care for older people.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to implement a fair and equitable system of care for the elderly, without imposing a financial burden on those requiring care.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000969]

19:17

Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): In 2000, world leaders promised universal education by 2015. Progress has been made, but with fewer than four years to go 67 million children are still missing out on school, the vast majority of whom are girls. I am grateful to the pupils of Overfields primary school, Middlesbrough for bringing this to my attention in the most colourful way.

The petition states:

The Petition of pupils of Overfields Primary School, Middlesbrough,

Declares that the Petitioners support the Send our Sister to School Campaign which aims to give girls the same chance as boys to benefit from an education and that the Petitioners support the international agreement to get all children into education by 2015.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to raise the commitment to get all children into education by 2015 at the G20 summit in November.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000972]

19:18

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

The staff of and residents around Liverpool coastguard station—otherwise known as Crosby coastguard station—are trying to keep it open. In support of the petition are 51,000 names on a similar petition, which I have with me in a box. The petitioners would like the maritime operation centre to be hosted at Crosby as a means of keeping the station open, which would save the Government a significant amount of money.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of Merseyside,

Declares that the closure of Liverpool Coastguard Station would result in the loss of vital local knowledge and a reduction in the efficiency of rescues of people in difficulty along our coastline and at sea.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take steps to ensure that Liverpool Coastguard Station remains open.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P000973]

Trade Union Officials (Public Funding)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.)

19:20

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

The general public could be forgiven for thinking that the funding of trade unions in this country was a relatively simple affair whereby employees who wish to join a union pay their subs and receive the benefits of their membership, and then out of those subs, the unions fund their activities, their offices and their costs, including the cost of the salaries of those full-time officials who spend all day on union activity rather than working on their normal job. Not so, however.

Over the 13 years of the last Labour Government—a Labour Government funded to the tune of £10 million a year by the unions—an insipid, backhanded and frankly dodgy system emerged which ensures that millions of pounds a year of taxpayers’ money is now being used to fund political union activity. In simple terms, the taxpayer is directly funding those organising strikes and chaos, and also indirectly funding the Labour party; and I think that is wrong.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

Could the hon. Gentleman describe to the House his interpretation of a trade union official, because that is fundamentally different from what he is stating? There is a difference between a trade union official and a trade union representative.

[Mr Burley]

If the hon. Gentleman had given me more than a minute to get going, I would have come to that point. To answer his question directly, my contention is very simple: any activities that people undertake on behalf of trade unions should be funded by the trade unions and not by the taxpayer.

Some excellent research by the widely respected TaxPayers Alliance in September last year revealed some absolutely startling results. The TPA submitted freedom of information requests to 1,253 public sector organisations, including councils, Government Departments, primary care trusts, foundation trusts, ambulance services, fire services, and all quangos with more than 50 staff. It found the following to be the case. In 2010, trade unions received £85.8 million in total from public sector organisations. That £85 million is made up of £18.3 million in direct payments from public sector organisations—mainly the union modernisation and union learning funds—and an estimated £67.5 million in paid staff time: the subject of this debate. That total is up by 14% from 2008-09, when trade unions received just £76.1 million from public sector organisations. In 2009-10, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills alone gave unions £15 million in direct subs. In 2009-10, total public funding for the trade unions was 20% more than the combined contributions to the Labour party and the Conservative party. Finally, in 2009-10, 2,493 full-time equivalent public sector employees worked for trade unions at taxpayers’ expense.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

It may interest Members to know that in Leeds city council a white paper was brought forward by Councillor Alan Lamb, a local small business entrepreneur, who said that it was outrageous that the council was spending £400,000 a year of taxpayers’ money on union officials. Does my hon. Friend believe it was right that that was voted down by Labour councillors who received money to get elected to Leeds city council in the first place? Is that not a personal and prejudicial interest?

[Mr Burley]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I find it astonishing that, in this place and elsewhere, anybody with an interest is required to declare it, unless it is that they are a member of a union that funds them and their local constituency party.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I should declare an interest: I am a proud trade unionist. I am a member of Prospect. Margaret Thatcher and Norman Tebbit were also proud trade unionists. Although I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiment, does he not agree that despite the abuse, there are many moderate trade unions around the country that do a great job in representing people’s interests? A third of trade union members vote Conservative and Conservatives should do all that they can to build bridges with moderate trade unions.

[Mr Burley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Few would take issue with unions working on behalf of their members in Departments or other public bodies in their own time and with union funding. My question to him and to the House is: why are taxpayers funding that work?

I want to focus on the fact that 2,493 full-time equivalent public sector employees worked for trade unions at the taxpayers’ expense in 2009-10. The TaxPayers Alliance has even broken down those employees by sector: 813 worked in local authorities, 630 in quangos, 611 in Departments, 130 in foundation and acute trusts, 96 in primary care trusts, 43 in NHS mental health trusts and 41 in fire services. My problem with those astonishing figures is simple: why should we spend hard-earned taxpayers’ money on a huge subsidy to the unions? Full-time trade union officials should be paid for by union members, not by the taxpayer.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman gets the opportunity to make this speech in front of the steel workers whom I have the privilege to represent, because the regulations also apply to the private sector. The Government, who are trying to provoke public sector strikes, should be more fearful of small and medium-sized enterprises in the private sector that are not unionised, where the incidents of wild-cat strikes are increasing. The Government need unions on side to deal with the vast amounts of people and to keep the costs of human resources down. Adjournment debates such as this provoke poor industrial relations.

[Mr Burley]

I think that the hon. Gentleman will come to regret that question—I am not even sure what his question was. I simply point out that what goes on in the private sector does not bother me because it involves private money. It is public money that I am talking about.

Trade unions are an important part of society and of Britain’s big society. However, the support that they get from the taxpayer has got way out of hand. Few would take issue with unions working on behalf of their members, but they must do it in their own time and with union funding. Why are the public paying for it?

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Burley]

I will make a little progress.

In the six months to March, the unions had enough money to give almost £5 million of donations to the Labour party, while paying their leaders up to £145,000 a year, which is what the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers boss, Bob Crow, receives. In fact, 38 trade union general secretaries and chief executives receive remuneration of more than £100,000. To name but one, the former joint general secretary of Unite, Derek Simpson, received more than £500,000, including severance pay of £310,000. That is in addition to the fact that the trade unions get £18.3 million—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Although Members on both sides of the House clearly have strong views on this subject, I remind them that this Adjournment debate is being televised. The behaviour of Members does not always reflect well on them. The hon. Member who has secured this Adjournment debate is entitled to be heard.

[Mr Burley]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that all Members will agree that I am trying to be quite generous in taking interventions, but I have only 15 minutes in which to speak.

In addition to what I said earlier, the trade unions currently get £18.3 million in direct payments from the taxpayer every year through the union modernisation fund and the union learning fund, so they have nearly £20 million in their bank accounts before we factor in any time off at the taxpayer’s expense. Surely they can cover their costs with a £20 million annual grant plus all their subs.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I, too, wish to stress that I support the unions, and I met my union representative today for an hour in relation to certain matters. However, what does my hon. Friend feel the money—the £85 million—could be spent on?

[Mr Burley]

The very simple answer to that is front-line services, not full-time union officials.

The legal background to the matter is that under section 168 in part III of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, a union representative is permitted paid time off for union duties. According to ACAS, those duties relate to anything including the terms and conditions of employment, the physical conditions of workers and matters of trade union membership or non-membership. However, under the same Act, any employee who is a union representative or a member of a recognised trade union is also entitled to unpaid time off to undertake what are called “union activities”, as distinct from duties. As defined by ACAS, union activities can include voting in a union election or attending a meeting regarding union business, but there is no statutory requirement to pay union representatives or members for time spent on union activities. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) is chuntering from a sedentary position, but I cannot hear what he is saying.

Union duties and union activities both fall under the remit of a union representative. Some union representatives are therefore currently being paid for undertaking both activities and duties, and I think that is wrong.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Burley]

I will give way in a minute.

In addition, union learning representatives are entitled to paid time off for duties including analysing learning or training needs, providing information about learning and training matters, arranging learning or training or promoting the values of learning and training. I ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, who is chuntering, is not all that the job of the human resources department?

In 2004—[Interruption.] Just be quiet. In 2004, the Labour Government made a commitment to boost the number of union learning representatives in the work force to 20,000, a threefold increase. The upshot is that a significant number of union representatives—nearly 2,500 full-time equivalents—are fully paid for by public funds. That means that the trade unions themselves do not bear their own representation costs.

[Phil Wilson]

Speaking as somebody who in the early 1980s was a member of the Civil and Public Services Association and received facility time to work as a trade union representative, may I say that where I worked was 90%-plus union organised, and we did not have any strikes? We had a great working relationship in the building, because we could sit down and talk through problems with the management, who enjoyed it. If we started where the hon. Gentleman wants, we would end up where part of my union ended up. In 1984, the CPSA was banned from GCHQ—

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Should Opposition Members declare their interest if they have received union funding in their capacity as Members of this House, or for political campaigns, before making interventions? I would be grateful if you could clarify the rules on that matter.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Mr Wharton, I am sure that everybody is aware of what interests they should be declaring when they participate in any debate. That applies to an Adjournment debate, which is normally the property of the Member who has secured it.

[Mr Burley]

I have forgotten part of the point that the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) made, but I simply say that the unions are entitled to do what they like, and I am sure a lot of what he did was very good work. My point is that they should do it on their own time and it should be paid for by themselves, not by the taxpayer.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Burley]

I will in just one minute.

The upshot of all the extra money provided to the unions is that a huge amount of money is freed up, whether from the direct grants or the union fees, that the unions can use on political campaigns. If their other costs are paid at the taxpayer’s expense, the unions can use the rest of their income for political activities.

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Burley]

I will not give way.

I would be grateful if the Minister could address the distinction between paid time off for union duties and unpaid time off for union activities. What are the Government doing about union officials who play the system and use their paid time off for political activities?

Further, are the Government planning to mandate public bodies to record more accurately what time is taken off for political activities, which should not be funded by the taxpayer? We know from a written answer from the Department for Communities and Local Government that public bodies do not even bother recording union time accurately.

[Anna Soubry]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Burley]

I will just read this out and then give way.

My hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) asked the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government

“if he will issue guidance to local authorities on the use of (a) facilities, (b) resources and (c) staffing time for trade union duties and activities.”

The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), replied:

“The TUC have estimated that there are 200,000 union representatives in workplaces across the United Kingdom. Information on the amounts spent on paid time”

on

“the provision of facilities for trade union officials in the public sector is not widely recorded or transparent…Estimates have suggested that…‘facility time’ is more prevalent in the civil service than the rest of the public sector and the private sector, with civil service departments spending, on average, 0.2% of annual pay…on facility time, compared to 0.14% in the”

whole public sector and just

“0.04% in the private sector...We would actively encourage local authorities to reduce the amount of facility time to the norm of private sector levels.”—[Official Report, 25 October 2011; Vol. 534, c. 126W-27W.]

[Anna Soubry]

I hope that as a shop steward I represented my members with integrity, vigour and some success. I never took a single penny piece from the public purse. Does my hon. Friend, who has so commendably introduced this Adjournment debate, agree that unions would advance their cause if they stopped taking public money? If they did that, more people might join them because they would not be seen as extensions of the Labour party.

[Mr Burley]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. That is the point that I was trying to make. My direct question to the Government is this: are they willing to go further and change the 1992 Act, so that trade unions should fund all their activities from their subs? There should be no taxpayer subsidy for those who take time off to spend on union activity.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

rose—

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Mr Burley]

I will not give way.

That would be many people’s preference. By way of an example, the excellent, independent and non-taxpayer funded campaigning website order-order, or the Guido Fawkes blog, has been highlighting the practice of paying union officials out of the taxpayer purse. Following its campaign, full-time taxpayer-funded trade union officials have become known as “Pilgrims” in the media, after Paul Staines exposed one such full-time union rep named Jane Pilgrim as a full-time trade union organiser working in the NHS for Unison. She came to public attention in 2011 after criticising the Government’s health policies. Despite being billed as a nurse, she was found to be a full-time trade union official, being paid £40,000 by the hospital. She is now under investigation by both St George’s hospital and Unison for running a private health consultancy—called The Pilgrim Way—on the side, creating a conflict of interests.

As the website states:

“There is no justification for the taxpayer paying a lobbying organisation to fight for an unsustainable mess in the interests of a vocal minority group. We don’t pay the arms dealers and the tobacco lobbyists’ staffing bills”.

Let us consider this classic example, which was flagged up by none other than the black country’s Express and Star:

“Judy Foster…is employed as an administration officer by the fire service…But for the past seven years the Labour councillor has been devoting all her working time to Unison, representing 280 fire workers…The fire service has now insisted that Councillor Foster…spends half her…time…on fire service duties and half with the union…But Unison has appealed against the offer and says her union work should be full time and funded entirely by the taxpayer.”

My question is why and on what grounds?

[Jim Sheridan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As a proud member of Unite the Union and the chair of the Unite parliamentary group, I am inviting the hon. Gentleman to come along to our group and tell us where we are going wrong. One of the main factors in a trade union official’s job is identifying and preventing health and safety problems in the workplace—not the office, the workplace. Has he factored in any of the figures from the TaxPayers Alliance?

[Mr Burley]

My direct answer to the hon. Gentleman is to ask what he thinks the human resources department or the Health and Safety Executive are for. Public sector organisations have those people, so there is total duplication.

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Jim Sheridan]

rose—

[Mr Burley]

The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) just asked what has gone wrong, and I will tell him. The Express and Star continued:

“Councillor Foster, who was elected in 1998, already picks up £9,300 in allowances from Dudley Council along with £14,475 as vice chairman of the West Midlands Police Authority. With her £28,000 job, it brings her combined taxpayer-funded salary and allowances to more than £51,000.”

It is no wonder that a YouGov poll in conjunction with the TaxPayers Alliance shows more than half the country would like to see an end to the controversial practice of public sector-funded trade union officials.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I, too, declare an interest as I am the former father of the National Union of Journalists chapel at ITV Yorkshire in Leeds. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) attended the TUC last month in London. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) find it surprising that while representing the union members at ITV Yorkshire in Leeds, the fat cat boss at ITV, who was slashing jobs while taking millions in pay, shares and perks, has now been tasked by the Leader of the Opposition with reforming the Labour party?

[Mr Burley]

I would love to say that I was surprised, but after revising for this debate, I am not surprised by anything anymore.

It is my simple contention that trade unions should pay for representation within public sector organisations through subscriptions. It is unfair that taxpayers should have to shoulder that burden. Unions raise substantial sums through membership subscriptions. For example, subs in the Home Office alone came to more than £2 million in 2009-10. Programmes that give taxpayers’ money to trade unions under the guise of work force improvement should also be scrapped. This includes the union modernisation fund and the union learning fund.

Will the Minister explain what plans the Government have to end full-time trade union work in the public sector? Will he pledge to end full-time representatives who spend 100% of their time on trade union work while being paid their salary by the taxpayer? Will he mandate all public bodies to record accurately time spent on both union duties and activities? Will the Government go one step further? Employment legislation currently requires employers to make available a reasonable amount of time for trade union representatives to carry out their duties. Will he change that so that all time taken off for trade union activities is billed back to the union so that the taxpayer is no longer funding their work?

Finally, given that the unions start the financial year with a £20 million grant from the taxpayer, are the Government looking at reviewing, paring down or abolishing the union modernisation fund and the union learning fund? The taxpayers of this country are currently bankrolling the unions. The equivalent of 2,500 full-time officials are being paid for by the taxpayer, not to do the job of representation but to undertake full-time campaigning activities that should be funded by the unions. This is at a cost of £86 million a year to the taxpayer, with 170,000 days off for union activities and £23 million of perks such as photocopying and phone calls. In an age of austerity, that £86 million is the equivalent of the expenditure of the Office of Fair Trading. Taxpayers expect their money to be spent on public services, not union services. We can no longer afford this Spanish practice, and I call on the Minister to end it.

19:43

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)]

There was I thinking that this was going to be a quiet conversation with my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) in the traditional calm of the Adjournment debate slot, but I was wrong. I congratulate him on securing the debate and the robust way in which he presented his argument.

In the short time I have, I shall try to clarify the Government’s position. First, we need to recognise that employment legislation requires employers to make available a reasonable amount of time off for trade union representatives to carry out their trade union-related duties. There are nine areas of statute where union representatives have rights to paid time off to perform their duties. These cover areas such as representation, informing and consulting, collective redundancy, learning and health and safety. There is a reason for this. There is a clearly defined framework for consultation and negotiation between managers and employees to support good employee relations.

There is a cost to that, however. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has estimated that paid time off for union duties costs employers £400 million annually—0.07% of the total annual pay bill—over half of which, £225 million, fell to public sector employers, with £175 million falling to private sector employers. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and I agree that it is important that the right balance is found between effective representation of trade union members and value for money for the taxpayer.

[Robert Halfon]

Of course we understand that there is abuse, but does my hon. Friend accept that there are neutral unions that use facility time constructively? For example, the First Division Association uses facility time to resolve workplace disputes and to help families of Foreign Office staff relocate overseas. That is valuable work and we should be grateful that the FDA does it. I say that only to make the point that not all unions are made up of the Bob Crows described today.

[Mr Hurd]

I accept my hon. Friend’s valuable point, but there is clearly a case for reviewing whether we have the right balance.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase asked a number of questions that I would like to try to address in the time available, so I am afraid that I will have no time for interventions. He asked about the distinction between paid time off for union duties and unpaid time off for union activities, and asked what the Government were doing about union officials who, in his words, “play the system” and use their paid time off for political activities. The ACAS code of practice on time off for trade union duties and activities provides a detailed framework for those matters. It sets out examples of trade union duties that should attract reasonable paid time off and examples of trade union activities that can attract reasonable unpaid time off. A review of current practice is under way in the civil service, but, anecdotally, we believe that many Departments, if not most, currently give paid time off for such trade union activities where reasonable unpaid time off may be more appropriate.

My hon. Friend then asked whether the Government were planning to mandate public bodies to record more accurately which time is taken off for political activities that should not funded by the taxpayer. He will be aware that the Minister for the Cabinet Office announced at the Conservative party conference that the Government intend to consult on ensuring transparency about union facility time for which Departments—and ultimately the taxpayers—are paying. We will publish information on civil service trade union representatives and the amount of paid time that is spent on union work, as well as the overall percentage of the pay bill for which this accounts.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hurd]

I said that I would take no more interventions because of the time.

The central point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase made, about the 1992 Act, is a matter for Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to answer. However, I assure him that I will make them aware of the points that he made and ask them to write to him directly.

In answer to the list of questions that my hon. Friend asked at the end of his speech—about Government plans to end taxpayer-funded full-time trade union work in the public sector, end full-time representatives and require transparency about the costs of trade union representatives—the Minister for the Cabinet Office also announced at the Conservative party conference that the Government intend to consult the civil service trade unions on the following propositions. We will consult on introducing a cap on the amount of facilities time that Departments can offer, to bring it into line with the statutory requirements. We will consult trade unions on the practice of allowing trade union representatives to spend 100% of their time on trade union work paid for by the civil service.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hurd]

I will not, out of courtesy to my hon. Friend who secured the debate, as I want to try to answer his questions.

We do not think it reasonable for the civil service to pay people purely to do union work. It is arguably impossible for them to represent the views of the staff in their Department adequately if they are not embedded in its work. In some circumstances, Departments go beyond the requirements of the law by giving paid time off for trade union representatives to take part in internal trade union activities, such as executive group meetings, annual conferences and recruitment meetings. To address that we will consult trade unions about any practice of paying for such trade union activities, with a view instead to enabling employees to take reasonable unpaid leave, as required in statute. In order to ensure transparency about the union facility time for which Departments are paying, we will publish information relating to civil service trade union representatives and the amount of paid time spent on union work, as well as the overall percentage of the pay bill for which this accounts.

As for whether we would go further with employment legislation, I have said that BIS Ministers would respond more fully to that point. However, there are no plans for the law on trade union facility time to be changed specifically for the public sector or otherwise. A reasonable amount of paid time off can offer value for money for the taxpayer. For example, it can minimise working time lost owing to disputes and accidents at work. However, it is important that the Government ensure that public sector employers manage the paid time off that they grant their union representatives effectively to deliver those potential benefits, which are the justification for spending taxpayers’ money.

In answer to the last point that my hon. Friend made, about the grant for the union modernisation fund, there are currently no plans to review the Government’s existing commitment to the union learning fund, as set in “Skills for Sustainable Growth”.

In conclusion, as I have said previously, it is important that employees are represented fairly by union officials. However, in the current financial climate, it is right that the vital balance is found between effective representation of trade union members and value for money for the taxpayer. The measures proposed by the Minister for the Cabinet Office will address the current burden on the taxpayer, while wider transparency measures will ensure that other public sector organisations offer value to the taxpayer. It is essential that we achieve a fair balance on behalf of the taxpayer, and I am happy to keep my hon. Friend updated—

19:50

House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).

Westminster Hall

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

Wednesday 26 October 2011

[Sandra Osborne in the Chair]

BBC Local Radio

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.)

09:30

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne, and an honour to have been chosen to open this very well subscribed and well supported debate. I know that many other hon. Members across the House were as eager as me to secure the debate, and my name was one of more than 20 that went forward to the Backbench Business Committee to call for it. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing time for it, and I apologise for the fact that the ballot selected me over many other Members who are equally or more qualified to address the subject.

I am delighted that the debate will be answered by a Minister who is a self-declared fan of local radio. Given that in our last debate he managed to congratulate me and two other Members on our impending nuptials, I am intrigued to discover what surprises he has in store for us today. I declare an interest because my sister is employed by the BBC, albeit in television rather than in local radio.

This is not the first time this year that Members have gathered to debate this important subject. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who so ably opened the previous debate, and I am pleased that many of the Members who spoke then are here again today. I suspect that my speech may be interrupted now and again, because so many hon. Members are eager to speak on a subject that matters so much to our constituents. I will wrap up my comments soon after 10 o’clock to allow time for other Members to speak.

Like all Members here, I care passionately about BBC local radio in my constituency. I want to set out three main points: why we need this debate now, why I believe that local radio must be treated as a special case in the BBC and why I am particularly concerned about the situation of BBC Hereford and Worcester and the BBC in the west midlands. The reason why we need another debate on local radio is clear. Since our first debate in April, the BBC Trust has published its “Delivering Quality First” consultation and the service review of BBC local radio, which have driven speculation and concern about the extent of cuts to BBC local radio stations. I am sure that many hon. Members have, like me, received calls from constituents and workers at their local radio stations who share those concerns. I am grateful to all who have taken the time to speak to their local MP about the issue, and to all who work so hard in local radio. The BBC says:

“Local Radio is being tasked with finding savings of 12% (10% after reinvestment). As we are asking the BBC as a whole to make savings of between 16-20%—up to 25% in non-content areas—Local Radio has been relatively protected.”

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He mentions a figure of between 10% and 12%, but the figure for BBC Radio Merseyside is 20%, which is a disproportionate and massive cut compared with the overall position. It will result in a saving of £420,000 and the loss of up to 15 jobs. BBC Radio Merseyside serves a predominantly older and poorer audience, who do not listen to national radio, and those people will lose out. Is that a common experience for him?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman pre-empts my next point beautifully, and I know that BBC Radio Merseyside is well represented in this Chamber today. The BBC goes on to point out that

“the savings feel higher because the cost of buildings and technology needed to broadcast in 40 locations means that we cannot avoid cuts being made to the number of programme makers. That’s why in some stations we will be reducing teams by over 20%.”

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to Westminster Hall. The number of MPs present is an indication of the importance of the subject across the United Kingdom. I make a plea for Northern Ireland and BBC Radio Ulster, as I am sure people would expect me to do. BBC Radio Ulster plays a crucial role for many people in my constituency. It keeps those who have only a radio to listen to in touch with the news, and many of my elderly constituents in particular see the Sunday morning programmes as an important part of their life. Although we accept the need for cuts, does he agree that consideration must be given to elderly people in our constituencies?

[Mr Walker]

I thoroughly agree with that point. The same is true for BBC Hereford and Worcester, where I am told that the proposed cuts mean that eight out of 35 jobs are at risk. There is serious concern about the future of the office in Hereford, which is the BBC’s only visible presence in the county.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we have been here before with the BBC? Many years ago, local radio was taken out and at its expense we had regional radio. Does he agree that there is one role for national radio and another for local?

[Mr Walker]

That concern has been widely raised, and I believe that we should not move from a local model to a regional one. I will return to such concerns.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

I am sure that every Member cherishes their local radio station, but while we are discussing local radio in the west midlands, may I make a plea in respect of BBC Radio Stoke, which serves Staffordshire and south Cheshire? The cuts are much greater than the BBC is suggesting, because the breakfast and drivetime programming will be severely reduced if they go ahead. I urge the hon. Gentleman, through the debate, to ensure that everyone responds to the consultation process. We must make our voices heard through local radio and have regard to what is happening to broadcasting rights.

[Sandra Osborne (in the Chair)]

Order. In view of the number of Members who wish to speak, may I ask for short interventions?

[Mr Walker]

I take the point that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) made, and I agree that all our constituents should respond to the consultation and make such sensible points about their local radio. There is much to welcome in the BBC’s consultations, and it would be churlish not to acknowledge that it has done a lot to protect its local offering. I welcome the fact that in the local radio service review the BBC set out to protect local peak-time programmes—although I note the hon. Lady’s point—such as breakfast, mid-morning and drivetime, as well as sport and faith on Sunday mornings. I am sure that many hon. Members will be pleased with the suggestion to reinvest savings in dedicated local political correspondents. The proposals for programming include sharing afternoon programmes on weekday afternoons, sharing evening programming on a national level on weekday evenings, and regional programming for off-peak periods. In its main consultation, however, the BBC has also set out plans substantially to reduce spending on sports rights, and I, like many other Members, would like reassurances that that will not result in substantial cuts to the coverage of local sport.

I am sure that Members have many other concerns about the consultations, but I would like to move on to my second point: why does local radio matter so much and why does it deserve special treatment? Local radio reaches a very different demographic from national stations or television. In my constituency, many of its listeners are elderly, work outdoors or cannot afford a television. Statistically, listeners to local radio are more likely to be in the demographic group known as C1 and are unlikely to benefit from other parts of the BBC’s offering. Outside the south-east, local radio listeners are more prevalent than Radio 4 listeners. In the area of the west midlands that I represent, which is covered by BBC Hereford and Worcester, more people listen to local radio than to Radio 4. According to the RAJAR survey for the second quarter of 2011, although Radio 4 has 10.9 million listeners in the UK and BBC local radio has only 7.3 million, in Hereford and Worcester, Radio 4 has 123,000 listeners and BBC Hereford and Worcester has 129,000.

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not simply a case of pitting local radio against national radio such as Radio 4, but that local radio is so successful because stations such as BBC Tees deliver sub-regional content? We have to protect such content, because it tells people what is going on in the communities they identify with, rather than in larger regional or national areas.

[Mr Walker]

I thoroughly agree with my hon. Friend, who pre-empts some of the points that I am about to make. Of the 7 million people who listen to local radio across the UK, more than 2 million listen to no other BBC radio station. Many do not watch television on a regular basis or access the BBC’s online offering, so local radio is their only return for paying the licence fee.

Most importantly, as my hon. Friend has just said, local radio is the part of the BBC that is most genuinely local and based in the communities that it serves. More than television and more than online services, the 40 local radio stations and their offices around the country are often the only representation of the BBC’s service in our constituencies.

[Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is talking about the reach of the BBC, which is a vital point. The BBC reaches an audience that a commercial radio station would not reach out to or want to reach out to. The BBC was set up to connect with precisely such people, so it is vital that the service remains.

[Mr Walker]

I thoroughly agree. As my hon. Friend knows well, the BBC’s local presence also provides a route into journalism for hundreds of people and gives hundreds of journalists the chance to work in their own communities.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that perhaps the BBC should look to its massive budget for presenters’ salaries, and its provision of fancy hotels for overnight accommodation and first-class travel?

[Mr Walker]

There are many areas of the BBC other than local radio where the savings it needs to make can be found. The hon. Gentleman’s point is well made.

People who work in local radio are already multi-tasking, with the same person producing a breakfast show, reading the news later in the day and then doing outside broadcasts at another moment, doubling up the roles of producer and presenter. As the hon. Gentleman just pointed out, those are not the obvious people to cut in an organisation that has a large head office and many highly-paid presenters.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I welcome the debate that my hon. Friend has introduced and the apolitical way that we are all standing up for local radio. I particularly welcome the fact that there are an awful lot of people here from the north-east who are standing up for BBC Newcastle and BBC Tees, which I listen to all the time. Is not the crucial message that we are all sending out—I hope he endorses it—the question of which is more important: local radio or much more expensive television content?

[Mr Walker]

I totally accept my hon. Friend’s point, albeit, as I declared earlier, my sister works in BBC television, so I have to be rather careful about what I say on that front.

Local radio has an unparalleled information-gathering network, which is why it is such a vital resource in times of trouble or crisis, when local knowledge matters.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend again, but may I give a specific example of local radio acting in a time of crisis? During the terrible floods of 2007, when people lost their lives and others lost water and electricity supplies, BBC Radio Gloucestershire was invaluable in providing vital, life-saving information. We lose that service at our peril.

[Mr Walker]

I agree with my hon. Friend completely. I was going to make the point that in the previous debate on this topic, I spoke at some length about the floods in Worcester in 2007. I made exactly the same point about coverage in Worcester.

[Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)]

What I find surprising is that Mark Thompson, the head of the BBC, said categorically in a speech that he made recently that the reputation of the BBC was created during the second world war at a time of crisis. Radio Cumbria covered the foot and mouth crisis, the terrible shootings, the floods and everything else—not just programmes, but an absolute lifeline for the people of Cumbria.

[Mr Walker]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I remember times in my life when the BBC locally has provided a lifeline when we have been cut off or in crisis situations. Many constituents have told me how much they value the real local knowledge and support provided by local radio at such times.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Walker]

I will give way one more time and then try to make some progress.

[Andrew George]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Radio reflects the distinctiveness of a local area. Radio Cornwall, which faces a 22% cut in output, is one that will suffer. It is not simply a question of its being audio wallpaper; people listen to it with great intensity. He is making a strong point that it is the uniqueness of local radio that is important. In Cornwall, Radio Cornwall is seen as Cornwall’s national radio.

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a passionate point. For all those reasons, I believe local radio is something special. It is not just another part of the BBC and I hope that the Minister will reflect on its unique offering—reaching people the licence fee might not otherwise reach and providing a service that no other part of the BBC can provide—when he makes his response to the BBC Trust.

I want to raise some specific local concerns and then give time to other hon. Members to say their piece. In Worcestershire, people are particularly worried that any shift towards regional programming and any moves to share programming will inevitably mean a focus on the urban west midlands, specifically Birmingham, at the expense of its rural neighbours.

[Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that Cheshire, which does not have its own BBC radio station, has to rely on the good will and great friendship of BBC Radio Stoke? If these measures go through, Cheshire will be relying on output from as far away as Birmingham and possibly Herefordshire.

[Mr Walker]

I am aware of those concerns and I take them seriously. We need to feed back to the consultation the fact that regions do not necessarily work for the people in our constituencies who listen to radio.

The BBC’s consultation talks about regions such as the west midlands and implies that regionalisation will take place for some programmes. Listeners in Worcester, however, would far rather see programmes shared with similar neighbours such as Warwickshire, Shropshire, Gloucestershire or Staffordshire than with large cities. I represent a city, but a city of 90,000 people, not millions. My constituents appreciate a county-based service for a county town and feel unrepresented by bodies that speak for the whole west midlands. This is not a partisan debate, but my party has campaigned against regionalisation in many other areas and we must question whether regions make sense in the context of BBC radio.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way and he is making a good case. Like him, I represent a big city. BBC Radio Leicester was the first regional radio station. Under these 20% cuts, we will have to share regional programming with Nottingham and Derby. Does he agree that it is a great shame for the people of Nottingham and Derby that they will be overshadowed by the great city of Leicester?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman speaks well on behalf of his city.

The consultation implies that decisions will be reached centrally by the BBC as to which programmes should be shared, but surely it would be better for local radio stations to lead on the process of deciding how sharing should work, so that they may set out how the communities they serve would be best represented by shared programming and where that might not be appropriate.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

As a fellow west midlands MP, I fully support the comments that my hon. Friend has made. While we in the west midlands have love and affection for the great city of Birmingham, is it not extremely important that, within the changes to BBC local radio, coverage of such great sporting teams as Nuneaton Town football club and Coventry City football club is not lost to the big conurbation of Birmingham and the west midlands, but is instead kept local within BBC local radio at BBC Coventry and Warwickshire?

[Mr Walker]

Once again, I find one of the points that I was about to make beautifully pre-empted by one of my hon. Friends.

Before I move on to that point, there is one more issue that I want to raise on behalf of the west midlands. West midlands constituents fear that the region is being disadvantaged beyond local radio by some of the proposals in “Delivering Quality First”. They have heard of production jobs being moved from Birmingham to Bristol and Salford, production facilities closing, skills being lost to the region and creative talent moving away. At a time when many programmes are being moved out of London into the regions to emphasise the national nature of the BBC, surely it is reasonable to question shifts that appear to be damaging the position of a region as central and as important as the west midlands.

[Esther McVey]

One of the key points, which the BBC has seen for a long time, is audience fragmentation across BBC radio and television. Surely, when value for money is being looked at, the BBC should look at where its audience is. The audiences are with radio. The BBC should look for savings on BBC 3 and BBC 4 and save stations such as Radio Merseyside.

[Mr Walker]

I thoroughly agree with my hon. Friend’s passionate and sensible point.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

There are a staggering 380 jobs going from English regions. Of those 380, 280 are from local radio. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a staggering proportion of those job losses, which will have a disproportionate impact on local radio services, such as BBC Radio Merseyside, which has high fixed costs, such as buildings? Such services have to pay those costs, leading to a further disproportionate impact in job losses.

[Mr Walker]

I absolutely agree. I made the point in my speech in the previous debate on this topic that those fixed costs make this much more of a burden for local radio than it is for other areas of the BBC.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) has said, there are concerns about the unique ability of local radio to cover genuinely local sport. Fans of the Worcester Warriors rugby team, whose tie I proudly wear today, appreciate enormously the intense coverage provided by BBC Hereford and Worcester. We want assurances that the changes to local radio affect neither Saturday nor Friday evening programmes.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned local sport, but I look at the BBC and see multi-teams serving radio, television and all those other outlets for the BBC, travelling all over the world. Hundreds of people are out there. Does he agree that programmes such as those put out by BBC Tees and regional programmes such as “Inside Out” should be protected, while some of those international trips should be reviewed?

[Mr Walker]

What the BBC can offer as a distinctive value is genuinely local coverage and support for local teams who otherwise might not be able to secure coverage. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the BBC should be looking at its budget for covering some international sporting events to protect more local ones.

I am concerned for fans of Worcestershire county cricket club, of which I am one. They have enjoyed ball-by-ball coverage and the dulcet tones of Dave Bradley, and they will be concerned that sharing weekday afternoon programming may put that at risk. What hope have fans of Worcester City FC and the Worcester Wolves basketball team of receiving local radio coverage in future? More regional programming must mean less local sport, and as any Member could tell us, the local loyalties of sports fans are not easily mapped or divided into regions.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Walker]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once before, so I am afraid I will not give way again. I want to allow time for other hon. Members to raise their concerns, so I do not intend to speak for too much longer.

Some would argue that local news can be provided just as well by the private sector, and indeed in Worcester we have a very good private sector offering. I often enjoy listening to Wyvern FM and reading both the Worcester News and the Worcester Standard, but they do not offer the same service as the BBC. They can be excellent media organisations—

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is being extremely generous in giving way. I agree with everything he has said, but what part might community radio stations have in the mix?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend makes a good point; community radio stations can play an important part. I am not sure that they necessarily have the same reach as the BBC, and people appreciate the public service ethos of the BBC, particularly when it comes to times of crisis.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point, and I congratulate him on being so eloquent in outlining the benefits of local radio, such as BBC Radio Norfolk, in terms of community democracy and economy.

Did my hon. Friend see the recent comments of the head of news at the BBC, who was reported as saying that it is time that we all grew up? Does he agree that this proposal—which seeks to cut at the grass roots while paying huge salaries to the director-general of the BBC and to other, what I would call fat cats in the organisation—is symptomatic of the current situation? My constituents in Mid Norfolk would be bemused to hear that a public sector organisation continues to indulge in such things at a time when local grass roots are being cut so badly.

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend makes a strong point; the fact is that we are having a grown-up debate today and discussing something that matters to our constituents.

More broadly, all such media organisations are under strain. They are all suffering cuts at the moment, so we are not operating in a space where the BBC is encroaching on the territory of private media organisations; rather, it is the opposite. It is important that we should be supporting local radio at this time.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that the most recent listening figures show that the overall weekly reach for BBC local radio is 7.4 million, which is actually 700,000 more than last year. That shows that local communities value local radio and that they like local news. If we are discussing public service broadcasting, that is the type of broadcasting that people want. Does he agree that the BBC should listen to that, make cuts in the back office in White City and at the expense of highly paid presenters, and preserve front-line services?

[Mr Walker]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I hope that the BBC Trust is listening carefully to today’s debate.

I am looking forward to the Minister’s response, although I appreciate that he will have to point out that the BBC is still in the process of consultation and that many of these matters are as yet undecided.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

This has been a really good debate so far. Radio Plymouth is a small, local station—Gordon Sparks does the morning show and the sports coverage—and BBC Radio Devon offers an award-winning, fantastic service locally. With the Government’s general emphasis on local decision making and localism, is it not important that local radio stations are there to enable communities to discuss such issues?

[Mr Walker]

In a word, yes.

As I have said before, local radio remains a vital public service. I ask the Minister to communicate to the BBC Trust the strong feelings of the many hon. Members from all parties gathered here today about the value of local radio, the special case that it represents within the BBC, the risks of focusing on regions that mean nothing to the people who live in them, and the many local concerns that have been raised by these proposals. There are so many of us here today because this matters in our constituencies. I am proud to have been able to open the debate and to speak up on behalf of local radio.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sandra Osborne (in the Chair)]

Order. Thirteen Members want to speak, and I intend to call the Front Benchers at 10.40 am, so Members can do their own calculations.

09:54

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I will be extremely brief. If nothing else, this debate has been a welcome opportunity for everyone to get a plug in for their local station, which I am sure will ensure them coverage in the future. On that basis, can I speak up for BBC Radio London, which seems to be bearing the brunt of some of the cuts?

As the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) has said, local radio is at the heart of our local communities. It holds us all to account—both MPs and local authorities. To undermine that at this stage, particularly given the Government’s emphasis on localism, seems to run counter to everything that the House stands for and the Government’s proposals.

There has to be some element of contention in this debate. The whole issue of the cuts stems from the licence fee settlement, and I feel that the Government need to look at reopening that debate. I believe that there were undue influences from the Murdoch empire on the settlement, which therefore resulted in wholesale cuts. It is not just local radio; it is the BBC as a whole, which now envisages cutting 2,000 jobs. As we have heard, some of the brunt of that will fall on local radio. Last night, the National Union of Journalists announced that it will ballot on industrial action. That comes at a time when, frankly, the BBC is needed more than ever, given the issues that are being addressed both nationally and internationally.

I urge the Government to think again about the licence fee settlement. The licence fee is frozen until 2017. Since 2004—we have criticised the previous Government for this—there have been 1,000 job cuts a year, with now another 2,000 on top. The BBC also faces the possibility of being burdened with the funding of regional television, which will mean another round of job cuts and service cuts in future years.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that it is appropriate that hard-working families in my constituency should have to enable the BBC to employ Kylie Minogue to front a show at a cost of more than £1 million, as we hear in the news today?

[John McDonnell]

Of course not. The issue of high salaries within the BBC has already been raised and, along with some of the profligate spending at higher levels, that needs to be addressed and resolved. At the end of the day, however, that will not deliver the necessary savings to overcome the threat of cuts across the BBC and into local radio. Therefore, at some stage, the licence fee issue needs to be addressed again.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned BBC cuts. Is it fair and right that the BBC should first look to cut its cloth according to its coat, before it looks to the general public for more money from the licence fee each year?

[John McDonnell]

I repeat the point that, of course, we all want the BBC to address that agenda, but the savings that we—and Select Committees—have all tried to identify will not meet the overall requirements. Therefore, the licence fee debate needs to be reopened.

I will end on this note. We can all protect our local radio stations and that is what we are here to do. As the BBC enters into further consultation, I hope that it is listening to this debate. In particular, I hope that the BBC Trust board is listening, because it has the responsibility to rein in the BBC management on this issue. We have to re-address the issue of the long-term funding of the BBC, which means that we must look at how the licence fee settlement was arrived at. I believe that there were undue influences. I do not believe that adequate cognisance was taken of the views expressed in the consultation process.

[George Freeman]

Does the hon. Gentleman have any evidence to back up that assertion?

[John McDonnell]

That is one issue that we have been raising with Ministers, because it would be helpful if they published the information about the number of times that they met with the Murdoch empire to discuss the licence fee settlement. I would welcome the Minister’s response to that, because, up until now, we have not received any detailed information about the times that they met with Murdoch and the times that they discussed the licence fee settlement.

During the licence fee debate, James Murdoch made various statements, including one at a lecture in a Scotland, that particularly focused on reducing the licence fee so that the Murdoch empire could exploit and develop at the expense of the BBC. There is an issue that must be addressed, and we will have to return to it time and again not only in the context of local radio, but of BBC funding itself.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

I can put on the record that I have never discussed the licence fee with Rupert Murdoch or the Murdoch empire. Funnily enough, the most influential discussion that I have had was with the Guardian Media Group, which complained about the size of the BBC website.

[John McDonnell]

To be frank, those discussions around the BBC licence fee that took place with News International were above the Minister’s pay grade. However, as he will know, I have always looked forward to his promotion at some future date.

I want to end on this point, because so many hon. Members want to speak. Of course we all support our local radio; of course this devastation cannot take place; and of course we look to BBC management to look for savings in the high salaries and profligate expenditure identified by hon. Members. At the end of the day, however, we will have to return to the licence fee debate. We need more transparency and openness from the Government on how the licence fee decision was taken and on the undue influence of the Murdoch empire, which has presented the problems we face today.

10:00

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

I do not intend to detain the House for long, but I want to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on the gentlemanly and fantastic way in which he opened today’s debate and on his generosity to colleagues.

We all agree that local radio is a key component of our community. Local radio helps to bind the community together and creates distinctiveness across our nation. Local radio is a centre for people to get news and views. As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said, as we move into a localist agenda, local radio will help to hold local politicians to account, sometimes whether we like it or not.

Local radio is also fantastically good value for money. Of the £145 a year that is collected per TV licence, only some 4p in every £1 goes to BBC local radio. BBC Radio Cornwall, for example, has an annual cost of some £1.6 million, but it reaches 142,000 people a year. That is fantastic value compared with other outlets such as BBC Radio Cymru, which costs £16.1 million a year but only reaches an additional 4,000 people.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

Anyone who thinks that BBC local radio is expensive should visit the studios in the backstreets of Swindon, where the furniture is made of chipboard and I swear the offices have not been decorated in more than 30 years. My local radio service is exceptionally good. I am sure the station will not mind my saying that, as well as being exceptional and cheerful, the service is certainly cheap.

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend makes a fantastic point. I like to think of BBC local radio as cheap and cheerful, often serving the community and holding it together on a shoestring.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

For many BBC listeners and users who pay the licence fee, local radio is their only contact with the BBC. Some 2 million BBC radio listeners have no other contact. Reducing the service, therefore, is a disservice to those people.

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. The floods in my constituency in November last year showed and brought home to me how much of a lifesaver the news and advice provided by local radio is to a community at times of crisis. The absolute importance of that should not be underestimated by the House.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

Like all of us, I champion my BBC local radio station, in Kent, for its excellent work. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should not forget the excellent work of independent local radio, particularly community radio stations, which provide an excellent voice for local people at no cost to the taxpayer?

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend makes an eloquent point, and I agree with him entirely.

[Sarah Newton]

I endorse totally my hon. Friend’s remarks on BBC Radio Cornwall. Does he agree that, as we live in a remote and peripheral part of the country with a great deal of deprivation, commercial radio would be unable to step into the gap left by cuts to BBC Radio Cornwall? We have great local independent radio stations that do a very good job, but they do not have the newsgathering capability that we need.

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend is right: Radio Cornwall is necessary in a rural, peripheral and remote area of the United Kingdom.

I do not want to detain the House for much longer, but I want to make one final point. It is unfortunate that BBC Radio 4 is not coming under closer scrutiny. I confess that I often go to sleep with BBC Radio 4 on in the background. My mother suggests that that is why I speak as I do, rather than with a Cornish accent. BBC Radio 4 is London-centric. Some 78% of its listeners come from the ABC1 demographic, and 44% of its listeners are based in London and the home counties.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is from Cornwall, which, like Merseyside, is an area of our country with an extremely strong identity. We are proud scousers all, and Radio Merseyside helps to define who we are, as I am sure Radio Cornwall helps to define people in Cornwall. Does he agree that this is a question not just of what funding goes where, but of identity, heritage and culture?

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Lady is entirely right. We risk undermining such regional distinctiveness if we continue to privilege one radio station, BBC Radio 4, above all else. BBC Radio 4 needs closer scrutiny.

10:05

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I want specifically to address the role of local radio in dealing with civil emergencies. As a Member who represents Hull, which suffered greatly in the 2007 floods, I know that the information given out by the local radio station, Radio Humberside, was important for local people. It was important for local people to know what was happening and what the police and fire service were advising, and to get information on the state of the roads in the city and on school closures. Radio Humberside actually became the fourth emergency service for its listeners.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

When we had flooding in Goole this summer—the hon. Lady is a near neighbour and I am sure she was listening—within seconds of my tweeting on the heavy rain that caused the flooding of hundreds of properties, Radio Humberside was on the telephone wanting to know what was happening. Radio Humberside gave out that advice immediately.

[Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. Our part of the world has problems with flooding, and Radio Humberside is excellent at picking up on it and is on the scene straight away to get out information. Radio Humberside is excellent, and I pay tribute to its work on that particular issue, as well as all of its other work.

In December 2007, Radio Humberside was recognised by the Prime Minister of the day as one of the flood heroes. Peter Levy came to London and was awarded a certificate for Radio Humberside’s work.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

It seems that many Members have experienced floods. It is coming up to a year since we had a terrible gas explosion, which was covered by BBC Radio Manchester. Some 200 families were evacuated—so it was a similar situation—and I praise BBC Radio Manchester’s unrivalled coverage of that terrible crisis for the affected families across the area.

[Diana Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. In the days, weeks and months following the floods, Radio Humberside gave people information from the National Flood Forum on what they should do and where they could seek advice, which was important. Many hon. Members across the House know of the importance of local radio.

I will finish shortly because many other hon. Members wish to speak. I am told that, if there is a civil emergency, local radio broadcasting on, say, a pan-Yorkshire basis could switch back to very local transmission. Given the reduction in staff numbers and available resources, I do not know how feasible that would be, how quickly it could happen and whether we would get the service we need.

My final comment is on the demographics of the people in my constituency who listen to Radio Humberside. Overall, 79% of listeners come from the C, D and E demographics, and, as other Members have said, they do not access BBC services in any other way. Those groups are the hardest to reach with public service information, so it is vital that local radio output gets to those people whom we cannot reach in any other way.

10:09

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on securing this timely debate. The attendance is fantastic.

I will talk about football in a moment, not least because of Huddersfield Town’s thrilling 2-2 draw at Scunthorpe United last night, which takes Huddersfield’s unbeaten league run to 40 matches. Coverage, of course, is on BBC Radio Leeds, more of which in a moment.

Let me clearly state that I accept and support the freezing of the BBC licence fee. It is right that the fee should not go up during these tough economic times. I want to comment on how the BBC chooses to spend what money it has, rather than campaign for an increase in its budget. The issue is all about choices for the BBC top brass and about protecting the front line, and nothing is more front-line than BBC local radio.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

On making choices, we might consider savings on middle management across the BBC. Its careers website lists an asset acquisitions co-ordinator, a database architect and a thematic adviser, and I have no doubt that the people of Swindon would prioritise our shoestring, award-winning breakfast show over those examples.

[Jason McCartney]

Those are fine examples, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on them. I should have written them into my speech.

In a previous Westminster Hall debate, I spoke about the value and vital community role of speech-based BBC local radio, which is a much listened to front-line service that is not provided by any other broadcaster. I particularly love BBC local radio, not just as a listener and—as a Member of Parliament—a contributor, but as a former BBC local radio employee. I used to report for BBC Tees, or BBC Radio Cleveland as it then was, when Juninho, Emerson and Ravanelli were playing for the Boro. Those were very exciting times.

[Sarah Newton]

My hon. Friend is making an extremely good point. BBC Radio Cornwall will lose 36% of its local output, which means cuts in our language broadcasting. The spoken word is so important, and the only opportunity for Cornish speakers to have news and content for them will be lost if the cuts go ahead.

[Jason McCartney]

I agree with my hon. Friend’s excellent point. Speech-based services are not usually offered by commercial radio, and the cuts come at a time when even those commercial radio stations that have news and speech-based services are cutting them back and concentrating on more music output.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about speech-based radio. In relation to music, commercial radio tends to focus on chart hits, but stations such as BBC Radio Nottingham provide opportunities for local musicians and artists to be heard, who would never have those opportunities on commercial radio. Does he agree that local radio also acts as a champion for local artists and popular culture?

[Jason McCartney]

The hon. Lady makes a superb point about the variety of musical choices. BBC Radio Leeds has a session for unsigned bands on Thursday evenings and has Yorkshire brass on a Sunday afternoon.

I want to concentrate on local sports. The coverage of local rugby league will be cut back at BBC Radio Leeds. Where will rugby league fans be able to keep up to date with the likes of the Dewsbury Rams, the Hunslet Hawks and Halifax? There will be the odd score flash about the Bradford Bulls and the Huddersfield Giants on Radio 5 Live, because they play super league games, but full match coverage of such games is rare on Radio 5 Live, which is very focused on football.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Jason McCartney]

I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a big advocate for rugby league.

[Greg Mulholland]

Last night, my hon. Friend and other members of the all-party group on rugby league heard about the amazing community work that is being done by rugby league. The cuts to many of the stations that have been mentioned will do real damage not only to the coverage of the sport, but to its ability to assist in the community. Does he agree that there should be a full impact assessment of the effect on rugby league before any decisions are made?

[Jason McCartney]

My hon. Friend is right, and we will take the matter forward with the all-party group on rugby league.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I praise the hon. Gentleman for his speech, because he is making an important point about sport. I was brought up in a family that listened to BBC Radio Merseyside all the time. It is an excellent radio station, which has not only local but regional coverage. One reason why we listened to it was for the sports coverage.

As the hon. Gentleman will know, rugby league is a very important sport in my area. There is not only the issue about dealing with community views and getting messages across, but about ensuring that the coverage remains at the same level. The worry is that other sports will be covered and that rugby league will be left behind. Does he agree that we should talk to the BBC and strongly make the point that rugby league must retain the same focus?

[Jason McCartney]

I absolutely agree, particularly as we head towards the Olympics. Olympic sports will receive a lot of coverage, but we must not forget the heritage sports. Coming from Huddersfield, the birthplace of rugby league, I will work very hard on that with the all-party group on rugby league.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Jason McCartney]

After my next paragraph, I will take a couple more interventions and then sit down.

As for football, BBC Radio Leeds provides super coverage of Leeds United, Bradford City and—my team—Huddersfield Town. I was among 16,000 fans who saw Town beat Preston 3-1 at home on Saturday. This weekend, Town are way down at Yeovil and most of those fans, including me, will be tuning in to BBC Radio Leeds’ top team of Paul “Oggy” Ogden and former Town midfielder Kieran O’Regan for their biased, passionate and knowledgeable match coverage. Their superb commentary includes the use of tweets, Facebook and lots of fan interaction, but BBC Radio Leeds now says that it is to ditch coverage of away matches and, instead of Oggy and Kieran, the home side’s local radio team will provide the commentary. It just will not be the same—gone will be the passion and the in-depth knowledge that are synonymous with footy fans.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

That will happen not only to sports coverage. BBC Radio Lancashire is concerned that all outside broadcasting will be affected, and we should put pressure on the BBC to sort that out.

[Jason McCartney]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Outside broadcasts are important, as we have heard, at times of emergency—floods, major job losses and, in my part of Yorkshire, heavy snow. The reading out by BBC Radio Leeds in the morning of the list of school closures was very valuable and useful to parents.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a passionate case for the continuance of rugby league coverage on BBC Radio Leeds. I am sure he agrees that, in my part of the world, in Gloucester, it is important to continue to have coverage of rugby union, especially so that the roar from the Shed when we score tries against the team in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker)—the Worcester Warriors—can be heard across the county.

[Jason McCartney]

I hope the players are not out nightclubbing the night before.

Whether the local coverage is of football, rugby league or basketball, the BBC must revisit its decision. It should think again about priorities—instead of big exec salaries, having hundreds at Glastonbury and copy-cat programming that is produced by other broadcasters—and focus on local output and on local sport.

10:16

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on securing this important debate. I ask every Member who is attending today to go back to their office at 11 am and to put in a request to the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee for a debate in the main Chamber as soon as possible, because the subject is sufficiently important to be worthy of such a debate. There is consensus, and we need to make the trust totally aware of the importance of local radio.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I encourage the hon. Lady to ask hon. Members to write to their noble Friends in the other place, so that Lord Patten can listen directly to their parliamentary views.

[Angela Smith]

I completely agree.

My local station is BBC Radio Sheffield. It was the country’s second local radio station, and it started broadcasting almost 44 years ago in 1967. Last November, it was voted the station of the year at the prestigious Gillard awards. We feel that our local radio station is the best in the country, although not all Members in the Chamber would agree with me.

One thing is for sure—BBC Radio Sheffield plays an important part in ensuring that local people keep in touch with the world around them. As one local journalist said to me last week, “BBC radio serves a lot of people, many of whom may be poor, old and working class, and not very well served elsewhere on the radio network.”

[Sarah Newton]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Angela Smith]

No, because the hon. Lady has intervened three times already.

In the previous Adjournment debate on this topic, I talked about the popularity of some of our presenters. However, I want to focus today on how the proposals published by the trust will impact on my radio station. That impact threatens to be drastic. During the week, output will go regional at 1 pm and drive-time broadcasting will be local, but the output will then go national after 6 pm. On Sundays, local broadcasting will end at 1 pm. The total reduction in local broadcasting is way beyond the 20% cited by the trust—it is nearly 50%.

The station’s popular afternoon show, hosted by Paulette Edwards, faces the chop. As Yorkshire Members will know, there was a pilot recently in Yorkshire where that afternoon slot was shared regionally. It is fair to say that the pilot was not successful, with the vast majority of respondents to the consultation commenting that they wanted to see the return of the dedicated south Yorkshire show hosted by Paulette Edwards. I agree with them. I do not want to hear about a lost dog in York or a cat stuck up a tree in Leeds, and I am sure that the people of Leeds and York do not want to hear about the ups and downs of south Yorkshire sport, particularly its football clubs.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the shift towards more regional programming is about not only the hours broadcast, but the threat to the local knowledge of that station? Such knowledge really matters when it comes to events such as the Gloucestershire floods or even to reporting the current fantastic run of victories by Cheltenham Town football club, which is currently near the top of league two.

[Angela Smith]

I agree. As the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) has pointed out, under the proposal, coverage of local football teams playing away from home would be abolished. At present, BBC Radio Sheffield listeners enjoy commentary from Seth Bennett, Paul Walker and Andy Giddings. When Sheffield Wednesday play Huddersfield Town soon, I do not want other people’s commentators telling me about my team’s performance at that match. Similarly, the hon. Gentleman will not want to hear Seth Bennett commenting on Huddersfield when his team comes to Hillsborough to be beaten very soon. If implemented, the proposals will mean that almost 20% of locally employed BBC Radio Sheffield staff might face redundancy, with a full-time equivalent reduction of nine posts out of 40, which would seriously impinge on the station’s ability to provide a rounded and informed local service.

Turning to the comments made by the hon. Member for Colne Valley, we are where we are with the freezing of the licence fee. Unfortunately, the BBC must find savings, whether we agree with them or not. It is right to defend local radio and to point out that the BBC has decided to protect Radio 4, BBC 1, much of children’s TV and the BBC Proms series, which will receive investment at the expense of local radio. Although local radio is the most expensive BBC radio service, with running costs of £118 million, it delivers 40 stations and has an audience of more than 7 million listeners. In comparison, Radio 4 costs approximately £96 million and Radio 5 Live costs approximately £60 million, with both delivering a significantly smaller audience than local radio. Almost 250,000 people listen to BBC Radio Sheffield every week, which equates to 19% of the market. Unsurprisingly, sports coverage is very popular. On Saturday afternoons, 25% of the local audience turns the dial to BBC Radio Sheffield, which says much about the quality of our sports coverage.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

On sports coverage, does my hon. Friend agree that many people who listen on a Saturday afternoon are very vulnerable? They do not have sufficient finances, they are less well off and many of them are disabled people who cannot get to sports events. To stop feeling totally isolated from society, they rely heavily on local radio to give a quality service at least once a week.

[Angela Smith]

I agree, and I shall make that point more fully shortly.

The average age of a BBC Radio Sheffield listener is 54, and although sports coverage and the breakfast show enjoy a lower age profile, from 10 am onwards the audience is made up of older people, many of whom regard the station as their key and sometimes only contact with the world around them. Two thirds of the station’s audience are classed socially as C2, D and E, and many people listen to no station other than BBC Radio Sheffield. It is true that Radio 2 and our commercial radio, Radio Hallam, have a bigger audience than BBC Radio Sheffield, but BBC Radio Sheffield’s share is significantly higher than that of Radio 4, which gets 12% a week, or 157,000 listeners, and Radio 5 Live, which gets 9.9%, or 126,000 listeners a week.

Those figures suggest that audiences value a local offer, yet in the proposals, Radio 4 would be protected and local radio would be cut. Again, in an organisation with a historical culture of top-down management, we are seeing centralised decision making at the expense of the localism that I thought we were all in favour of nowadays. BBC local radio is unique, because no one else in the BBC or in the commercial sector offers a similar service. As a BBC journalist who used to work in local radio said to me only last week, the amount of time given to producers and researchers at Radio 4 for making features is so much longer than in local radio. I know they have had some of the fat cut over the past few years, but they still have an amazing luxury of time over their colleagues in local radio. I would not want to see Radio 4 cut drastically, but it could take its fair share of cuts.

BBC local radio represents public service broadcasting at its best. Its audience will suffer a significantly reduced service if the cuts go ahead on the scale proposed. However, because, by its nature, its audience is disparate, the chances are that their views will not be expressed in the consultation. That is why this debate is important and why it should be heard in the main Chamber. I urge colleagues to request that today, so that our constituents’ views can be aired properly.

10:25

[Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

The BBC has had to recognise that savings must be made, as has every family in the land. The problem is that, instead of doing what needed to be done, the BBC management chose to salami-slice its operation. Instead of seeing vanity projects going, cuts in waste on real estate and cuts in stars’ and management salaries, we are seeing a series of identical slices across the board. For a television programme or channel, those slices are relatively modest and do not make a huge impact. When applied to local radio, however, those same slices make a significant difference.

As an aside, which may be a cheap shot, I could not help noticing from the figures that an Opposition Member gave that the director-general of the BBC earns, as an annual salary, almost twice the cuts that are being demanded of BBC Radio Merseyside.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend’s reference to salami slices and cuts that are not thought through reflects the situation of BBC Radio Merseyside, which will lose one third of its staff. The BBC has not thought it through.

[Mr Gale]

The point is made. The BBC has created a plethora of channels and the management should be considering the arguments. I hope that the trustees will take the debate on board, because you can bet your sweet life that the BBC management will not listen. We therefore must go to the trustees and say, “Please listen. This matters.” It matters to the people whom everyone in this Chamber and all our other colleagues represent.

Local radio is important for all the reasons that have been stated. It is important for health and security, and it is a lifeline at times of crisis. We must reinforce the point that it is also a vital training ground for young journalists. Many people have cut their teeth in BBC local radio: Kate Adie used to work for BBC Plymouth; Libby Purves used to work for BBC Oxford; and someone called Roger Gale trained at BBC Radio London—[Hon. Members: “Where is he now?”]—and then disappeared without trace. If we allow the cuts to go ahead, broadcasting in general—not only in BBC local radio, but in national radio, in local and national television, and in all the other stations that have fed off that training process for years—will be all the poorer. Once that infrastructure has gone, it will be impossible to get it back again.

One point has not been made well enough. People listening to the debate will say, “They’ve all missed the point. We are promising them another political reporter and we will maintain the breakfast and drive programmes. We will preserve all the things that matter.” No, what really matters is the whole structure of BBC local radio. The BBC has always argued that it does not want ghetto broadcasting, saying that it will not cream off the important bits and that it has to provide a rounded programme. The people who listen to BBC local radio listen to it all, not just a bit of it. That means that the music in the afternoon, the community programmes, and people such as Jo Burn on BBC Radio Kent, who does wonderful work in the community, matter a great deal.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point in what is an excellent speech. The reason why BBC local radio is so successful and has that holistic view is that it is based in the core of local communities. As he has said, it is not simply about ensuring that the drive-time show is on; it is about reporters who go out to communities and pick up local stories. It is about the community projects that BBC local radio supports, such as the Treehouse appeal for a local children’s hospital that BBC Radio Suffolk supports. That is why local radio is so valuable, and the trustees of the BBC must listen to this debate.

[Mr Gale]

That is a precise summary of the entire argument. This issue matters to real people living real lives, who are not the people in the higher reaches of Broadcasting house, television centre or Salford quays—wherever that is—but the people we represent. We must all impress upon the trustees that they have to take this proposal back, listen and make cuts not in local radio but where they can and should be made.

10:29

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

I am heartened by what is the best turnout I can remember for a Westminster Hall debate. I declare an interest: I began my broadcasting career with BBC Radio Devon.

The focus of this debate has rightly been on local radio, but at least one Member has mentioned that regional TV current affairs programmes face even bigger cuts, particularly the “Inside Out” programme, which has more viewers than “Panorama,” and some of the biggest national documentaries. As MPs, we are acutely aware of the importance of local radio and regional TV to the health of our democracy, and at a time when ITV, independent local radio and local newspapers are doing less local news and current affairs it is vital that the BBC maintain its commitment to quality, and to local and regional output.

I understand that the BBC has to make savings because of the severe and, in my view, unjustified cuts imposed on it by the Government, but the corporation should take a much more long-term strategic approach to its reduced circumstances. Instead of trying to continue to do everything it currently does but with less money, salami-slicing—as the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) said—programmes that are already cut to the bone, it should be bold and stop doing things that few people watch or listen to, or that the commercial sector already does perfectly adequately. The BBC management seems to have been so traumatised by the backlash to its earlier proposals to close 6 Music and the Asian Network that it will not now contemplate closing down anything. That is not leadership and, as a number of Members have said, the current proposals reflect a strong London and south-east bias.

[Barbara Keeley]

BBC local radio costs only a few pence per user, but the coverage of sports such as rugby league, which are important in the north of England and for which BBC Manchester has won a prestigious award, would be lost. A crucial factor is that the coverage costs only a few pence an hour.

[Mr Bradshaw]

I absolutely agree.

I will finish on this point because other Members want to speak. At the end of the current consultation, the BBC Trust will make the final decision on the proposals; I hope that it does the job that Parliament gave it and tells the BBC that when it comes to local radio and regional television current affairs, it must think again.

10:32

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. This is one of the best attended Westminster Hall debates that I have been in as an MP.

I am conscious of the time and will not take many minutes. After speaking in a previous debate on this subject, I last week presented a petition with more than 2,000 signatures, from my constituents and people across the whole of Liverpool who are absolutely aghast at the cuts that the BBC proposes for BBC Radio Merseyside. BBC Radio Merseyside is the most listened to of the BBC’s 39 local radio stations outside London, with more than 300,000 listeners. One of the most pertinent facts is that the station has average listening hours of 16.2, compared with 11.7 for Radio 4. My constituents and the people of Merseyside depend on the service.

[Bill Esterson]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the very strong case she has made on behalf of BBC Radio Merseyside over a number of months. A statistic that has really struck me is that the station gets 16.7% of all radio listening in the area, compared with just 8% for Radio 4. That makes a strong case for the importance of local radio over national radio in Merseyside.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. Another statistic is that a disproportionate number of constituents over the age of 65 listen to BBC Radio Merseyside. Some 42% of the audience is in that age group, and 27% is in demographic groups D and E. I add my voice to the representations made by a number of Members this morning, about this being yet another assault by the BBC on people who are consistently left out and do not have services—they depend on their BBC local radio.

We received a representation from the BBC in advance of this debate, from Julia Ockenden in its public affairs unit. She makes the point that with local radio the savings are only 12%, but she goes on to state:

“However the savings feel higher because the cost of buildings and technology needed to broadcast in 40 locations means that we cannot avoid cuts being made to the number of programme makers. That’s why in some stations we will be reducing teams by over 20%.”

That is happening at BBC Radio Merseyside. We have the fixed costs of the building, so the cuts will have to fall disproportionately on staff numbers, which will impact on our news service and sports programming, and on some very specialist music programmes that my constituents enjoy.

BBC Radio 4’s £119 million budget has been protected. That is three times the budget of the largest commercial radio station, and only a couple of million less than the amount that all 39 local BBC radio stations will have as a result of the proposed cuts. The “You and Yours” programme on Radio 4, which broadcasts for just one hour a day, five days a week, has more staff than the entire complement of BBC Radio Merseyside. The impact of the proposed cuts on all the programming is a travesty.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sandra Osborne (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind Members that I intend to call the Front-Bench spokespeople at 10.40 am.

10:36

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

This is an extremely well-attended debate. Given the time available, and as there is an amazing amount of consensus in the room, I will not repeat what other Members have said.

We have heard about the 20% cuts, and Radio Tees, on whose behalf I speak, faces that sort of budget reduction, but the BBC needs to explain why other radio stations are getting much smaller cuts; for example in Berkshire it is 7% and in Somerset, 2%. As a public organisation, it is really important that the BBC explains to the public how it has made its decisions. We all pay our licence fee and deserve a level of service that does not depend on geography, so the BBC needs to explain how the proposals relate to the important parts of its charter that require it to deliver such services.

Radio Tees is a fantastic organisation, and it is amazing that we have an ex-employee in the room. Nearly every MP from the Tees area has been in the debate today. The station provides a fantastic service to a very large population in not just the Tees valley but a large part of north Yorkshire and south Durham. The service is led by the peerless Ali Brownlee, who does not only the football commentary but the morning show.

How can the BBC make other savings? We have heard about ludicrous salaries; most Members in this room could probably earn more somewhere out there but we are here because we want to provide a public service. If a BBC manager requires £500,000 to do a management job, we have the wrong person in the job. It is important that we start to put the public service element back into our public services. Why are there more pundits on “Match of the Day” than on any other football show? Why were there more BBC people than UK competitors in Beijing? That is ludicrous. The BBC needs to take a long hard look at itself before slashing radio services. Why is it slashing them? If we wanted to be cynical, we could say that the best way to get people to campaign about the licence fee is to cut the very services they depend on every day. I hope that is not true, but I am suspicious.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman has talked about presenters on his local radio station. Does he agree that the very local nature of radio stations means that there is a bond between the presenters and the listeners? They live in the same area, shop in the same shops and get stuck in the same traffic jams. That bond is a shared experience that does not exist anywhere in the national media.

[Ian Swales]

I absolutely agree. Only last Friday night I was at a charity brass band concert for Help for Heroes in Marske in my constituency, and it was introduced for nothing by the BBC Tees presenter John Foster.

[Esther McVey]

I want the BBC to think about the cuts, which will be self-defeating. Radio Merseyside could lose a third of its staff. What will be the results for accuracy of cutting so many staff?

[Ian Swales]

I agree. The BBC has an important duty to be accurate.

Another point that has not been made is that the BBC must listen to the listeners. What do they want? I think that the BBC will find that listeners value radio far more highly than some of the other services that it offers. It should reconsider the cuts. In the words of the great Joni Mitchell song, you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.

10:38

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mrs Osborne. I congratulate the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on initiating this first-class debate. There is clearly concern across the House; more than 50 Members have been here this morning. There is a lot more to say, and the BBC needs to hear that there is cross-party agreement on our serious concern about its proposed cuts to local radio.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) pointed out that the BBC must take a strategic approach to shaping services. At the moment, it is not clear that it has done so. Local radio accounts for only 4% of its costs, yet the cuts will have a disproportionate impact on local radio, not because the amount of money being sought—12%--is above average but because it obviously costs more to broadcast in lots of different places.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a good point. Does she agree that in the case of Radio Humberside, which is in its 40th anniversary year, losing 10 staff from a team of 42 will have the impact that she describes on quantity and quality of output?

[Helen Goodman]

Yes. My hon. Friend is quite right. One interesting thing that has emerged in this debate is the regional bias in the cuts. Many more Members from the north and west of the country are here, because those areas will be harder hit. Merseyside and Tees will be cut by 20%, while Somerset will be cut by 2%. It is not clear why. That also means that people will continue to feel that the BBC has a metropolitan bias.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

I agree with my hon. Friend. In my area, it is more than apparent to local people and BBC Tees that funds are being redirected to the south from the north-east, unfairly disadvantaging our local area.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend is right. There is a regional bias, a bias against radio rather than television and a bias in terms of which audiences will be hit. Many hon. Members have pointed out that BBC local radio is listened to more by older people and those on lower incomes. It is important that those people should have their fair share of public service broadcasting.

Hon. Members have raised four important issues involved in local radio broadcasting. The first is democratic accountability. If local councils and other regional bodies are to be democratically accountable, proper coverage of what they are doing is needed. Only local radio can give that. If people are to feel that their region is special and if local culture is to be maintained, people must be able to hear it on the radio. If people are to enjoy and maintain interest in local sport—we have heard about local sport from many hon. Members, sometimes at too great a length—local radio clearly has an important part to play. Many hon. Members also spoke about the important role of local radio at times of crisis. That is essential. The BBC management document says, “If there’s a crisis, we’ll slot ourselves in,” but if the infrastructure has been lost, that cannot happen. The BBC needs the infrastructure to provide coverage at the right times.

[Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. May I add another objective of local radio, which is to champion an area? BBC Tees has championed new and exciting renewable technologies as well as the closure of the Corus plant in Redcar and the opening of SSI. Radio can use its local distinctiveness to do things that other broadcasting media cannot.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, although I do not know why he omitted to mention the great campaign to keep the Zurbaran paintings in the north.

Local radio has key roles to play. The hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) made a good point about recruiting journalists. Local radio gives people across the country a route into journalism. If this country is to have more social mobility, we need more openings for people to enter important professions. Furthermore, this country needs more regional news gathering. The cuts to local radio, combined with the cuts to television in both the public and independent sectors and to BBC Radio 5 Live, will result in far less national reporting on regional and local issues. That is another instance of bias. We frequently hear human interest stories from the United States while equally important and more interesting things are going on in our own country. Local broadcasting is the way to ensure that we hear about them.

When the Minister responds, I hope that he will not entirely wash his hands of the Government’s responsibility for what is happening. Everybody agrees that some people employed by the BBC, either permanently or on short-term contracts, are paid ludicrously high salaries. Equally, everybody agrees that efficiencies can be achieved in London and in the services bought in by the BBC. None the less, does he still think that a six-year freeze in the licence fee is justified? We do not know what Mephistophelean deal was done; maybe he will enlighten us. That would be interesting, although I am sceptical that he will do so. When the six-year freeze was announced, it looked as though it would mean 20% cuts, 4% through efficiency and 16% through reductions in services. However, since then, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not kept inflation under control, meaning that the cut will be much deeper.

Does the Minister have a new assessment of what the BBC cut will be in real terms? Given that it is coming at the beginning, we can all work out that the cuts will be larger. Does he not see that as a case for re-addressing the size of the licence fee? He must take into account that when British people are asked whether 40p a day is too much to pay for the BBC, they say, “No, 40p a day is good value.” It is clear that the 7 million people who listen to local radio particularly value it. For 2 million people, local radio is their sole contact with the BBC. I cannot express too strongly how much we support local radio and want the cuts to be re-addressed.

10:48

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, Mrs Osborne. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on securing this important debate, and I welcome the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) to her position as shadow media spokesman for the Labour party. I am grateful to all hon. Members who have participated in this debate. I did a quick head count while the Chamber was full and came to about 46 Members, but it might be like the euro-rebels—a refined count might yield a higher number, given how many came in during the debate.

We have heard interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for Wirral West (Esther McVey) and for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), my hon. Friends the Members for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) and for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), the hon. Members for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and for Chippenham (Duncan Hames), my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), the hon. Members for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Halton (Derek Twigg), my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and the hon. Members for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) and for Hartlepool (Mr Wright). I am sure that I have missed some.

We have also heard extended and learned speeches from the hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney), the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) and the former Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), as well as from the hon. Members for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) and for Redcar (Ian Swales), before the contribution of the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Minister has not mentioned the constituency of Worsley and Eccles South, which champions BBC Radio Manchester.

[Mr Vaizey]

As I have said, I stand to be corrected.

[Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)]

In the Minister’s own interests, as well as mine, will he also mention Radio Oxford, where there is also a lot of concern?

[Mr Vaizey]

The right hon. Gentleman invites me to kick at an open goal.

I praise the BBC. It has put a lot of thought and hard work into delivering quality first. I will come to the licence fee payment in a moment, but no channels are closing. It has made some important strategic decisions and is looking to save about 11% of its budget in productivity and about 6% in terms of scope. It has also decided to go further on reductions in spending in order to have room to reinvest in programming and front-line services. I also welcome the extra investment in children’s channels. I personally welcome the support for the Proms, and we can all have a view about Radio 4.

[Ian Swales]

May I recommend that the Minister gets one of his staff to plot the constituency names that he has listed? I think that he will find that very few of them are in the south-east and the London area. The intensity of the number of constituencies increases the further we get from London. That is a serious message.

[Mr Vaizey]

I think that my favourite pirate disc jockey, my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet, would have something to say about that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester anticipated, the consultation has started and it closes on 21 December, so Members have a chance to respond. Even better, the director-general of the BBC, Mark Thompson, and its chairman, Lord Patten, will come to Portcullis House on 2 November at 4.15 pm. I think there are still tickets available, although the meeting may have to be moved to Methodist Central Hall at this rate. For the benefit of my hon. Friend, it is a double whammy, because Lord Patten used to be a European Commissioner, so we can raise issues with him about the pernicious influence of the European Union, as well as talk about the BBC.

BBC local radio has 7 million listeners. The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) has invited me to talk about BBC Radio Oxford, and this debate gives us the chance to praise our local radio stations. The last time I praised BBC Radio Oxford, it turned it into a jingle, so let me say: “BBC Radio Oxford—your listening pleasure is assured, with Malcolm Boyden, Joel Hammer, Bill Heine, Lou Hannan and Paul Miller.”

I would also like to mention Jack FM and Heart FM in Oxford. It is important to remember the role of commercial radio. The BBC has two thirds of radio listeners, so it starts from a high base, but commercial radio stations are also popular in our local areas. Let us not forget, either, community radio. I give credit where it is due—that is a great achievement, one of the few of the previous Labour Government. There are now 220 community radio stations around the country.

[Mr Bradshaw]

The Minister spoke a moment ago about the document having a strategic approach, but what is strategic about salami-slicing? Why has the BBC not been bolder and decided to close down certain services? Is it because the BBC wants to spare the Minister’s blushes in terms of the public impact and outrage that might cause?

[Mr Vaizey]

If I may be so bold, I think that sparing my blushes is the last thing on the BBC’s mind. I also think that the fact that almost 50 Members have turned up to this debate shows that it has hardly spared my blushes. There are controversial cuts elsewhere, but, as I have said, I think that some deep thought has gone into this. We will all have individual views about services that could be reduced or, indeed, cut completely.

Taking into account the reinvestment in programming, the cuts to local radio will be about 10%. [Interruption.] I said after reinvestment had been taken into account. The strategic decision is to invest in breakfast, mid-morning and drive, which is when 86% of listening to BBC local radio takes place. There are plans to recruit specialist and chief reporters for every channel.

I commend the blog of Helen Boaden, the head of BBC news, on today’s debate. She says that the BBC has no intention of letting its audiences down. That is an important assurance from the head of news for BBC radio. Members may treat that comment with scepticism, but she has put it on the record.

The BBC has assured us that it remains committed to local sports coverage. Interestingly, local sports clubs charge the BBC to supply commentary. There may be some leeway on the fees charged by local sports clubs, but I would not want to see the amount of money going into them significantly reduced.

[Damian Collins]

I am one of the three Kent MPs who have spoken in this debate. We feel the cuts in Kent and are concerned about Radio Kent. This debate has been about cuts, but should the BBC not also be looking to maximise its commercial revenues through BBC Worldwide and the potential commercial exploitation of older programmes through iPlayer?

[Mr Vaizey]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. I asked him earlier whether he was sitting behind me because he was acting as my de facto Parliamentary Private Secretary, but he replied that it was because it was the only seat left in the Chamber. He is right that the BBC’s commercial income needs to be reinvested in programming. BBC Worldwide is a great success. It ran into trouble in this place because of some of its decisions, but it is run by a supremely effective executive, John Smith. I gather that an additional £40 million from BBC Worldwide will be going into programming.

[Esther McVey]

I want to make a clear and specific point: let us save the local radio stations and make savings on BBC 3 and BBC 4.

[Mr Vaizey]

We will all have views on where we can make savings. I was intrigued to see that “Newsnight” alone, which has about 250,000 viewers, has a budget of £8 million.

[Mr Iain Wright]

That is Jeremy Paxman’s salary.

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Gentleman has just ensured that he will get a smooth ride the next time he appears on “Newsnight”. There is a consultation and all Members have the chance to put their views to the BBC. As I have said, the director general and chairman will come to Portcullis House.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland has asked what I think, which is that we got a good deal for the BBC. It is important to remember—I made this point to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington—that the most effective lobby in relation to concern about BBC scope when I was in opposition was made by the Guardian Media Group, which was concerned that it could not monetise its website because of the scope and breadth of the BBC website. Interestingly, The Guardian employs roughly the same amount of people as BBC local radio. It is having to make significant job cuts, which it announced in June. Even The Guardian, apart from Polly Toynbee, has to live in the real world and make savings. Not a single other media group in the country has certainty of funding until 2017—that certainty is an enormous luxury—apart from S4C. I commend the deal struck only yesterday between the BBC Trust and S4C, under which an enormous amount of money will go into Welsh programming.

[Bill Esterson]

The Minister has, on occasion, taken a light-hearted approach during his response. A number of Members, including me, have pointed out that a significant number of jobs are at risk. I do not think that people who face losing their jobs regard the issue as light-hearted. Moreover, a number of vulnerable elderly and disabled people rely on BBC local radio. The Minister has not touched on those points yet, so will he address them in the time remaining?

[Mr Vaizey]

I have made the point that the reductions in BBC local radio are less than in other BBC services. The hon. Gentleman’s tone is priggish, which is inappropriate to this debate, but other Opposition Members have suggested closing down services. They have suggested cuts to Radio 4 and to BBC 3, which would result in job losses. There will be job losses in the BBC, as is the case in other media companies.

We have given the BBC certainty of funding until 2017. The Labour party’s policy is unclear. Is it to reopen the licence fee settlement? If so, it should state the level to which it wants the licence fee to be raised. If that is its policy, the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland is welcome to state it.

[Mr Bradshaw]

With due respect to the Minister, his speech could have been written by the management of the BBC. It is not his job to be a cheerleader for the BBC, and that is not the trust’s job either. His job is to represent the views of Members in this Westminster Hall debate. We are deeply concerned that the BBC has got it wrong on local radio. If he will not say that publicly today, I hope that he will take that message back and make it very clear, in private, to the BBC management.

[Mr Vaizey]

I think that my job is to be a candid friend of the BBC. I do not apologise for supporting the BBC and for praising its work. I do not apologise for an organisation that is extremely popular with listeners and viewers. Neither do I apologise for defending the BBC in taking a strategic approach to the licence fee freeze. All Members have views on what the BBC should and should not be doing, and there is extensive consultation. It is certainly not my job to tell the BBC what to do. It would be wrong for a Minister to order the BBC to close down a particular service or to save another one. That is a job for BBC management.

Public Health (Bexley)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise the important issue of public health and the situation in my borough of Bexley, which is of great concern to many of my constituents and, of course, to me.

Regrettably, there are vast health inequalities in Bexley and south-east London. The difference in life expectancy for two men living in different parts of Bexley could be as much as or more than seven years. The reasons for that situation, both locally and nationally, are complex and are affected not only by access to the NHS or social care services, but by diet, activity, education and employment. Public health is therefore a matter of fairness and social justice.

As well as causing serious long-term health issues, health inequalities have a wider impact. We all know that obesity can lead to problems with diabetes and heart failure, that smoking kills tens of thousands of people every year and that alcoholism can cause liver failure and increase a person’s susceptibility to other diseases. Those associated illnesses can cause productivity losses for business, reduce school attendance for children and lead to high treatment costs for the NHS. If those problems are not addressed, we could face greater problems in the future, as my hon. Friend the Minister will appreciate.

I am very worried about the increasing number of people who are being classed as obese. The long-term consequences for those individuals and their families can be catastrophic if they do not take action, because they may subsequently experience problems such as heart disease and diabetes. I am particularly concerned about the number of children who are alleged to be experiencing weight problems. According to the national child measurement programme, one in four reception age children in my borough of Bexley is considered to be obese or overweight. That is an incredible figure and, by the age of 11, it rises to one in three. I am sure that the Minister shares my concern about that problem.

There is also an issue among adults. Nationally, the number of obese people in England has doubled since 1993, and the number of obese women has risen by half. Locally, in Bexley, one in four adults is to be considered obese. With trends suggesting that most children who are considered to be obese will remain so well into their adult lives—particularly if their parents are obese, too—the consequences are of real concern to individuals, as well as to society.

I am pleased that my colleague the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) and my neighbour my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) are here today. The issue does not stay within borough boundaries, because it goes across our area.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. He cares passionately about health care in the borough of Bexley. He has mentioned that some of my constituents rely on services provided in Bexley and that, vice versa, some of his constituents rely on services in the Kent area. Does he therefore agree that it is essential to ensure that the relevant local authorities are aware of their obligations to each other, so that there can be some certainty about funding and budget setting for the councillors in the respective areas that we represent?

[Mr Evennett]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. There is much cross-border health care traffic both from Bexley into Kent and from Kent into Bexley. That is the choice that people have and should have. Such a situation also reflects people’s needs, which should be met, so I endorse entirely what my hon. Friend has said.

Obesity is responsible for nearly half of all cases of diabetes, a quarter of heart problems and, in some circumstances, more than a third of cases of some cancers. The National Heart Forum estimates that those problems could get much worse and suggests that the number of people getting diabetes as a result of their weight could double by 2050. Financial considerations and costs must also be taken into account. It has been estimated that obesity directly costs the NHS around £4 billion a year. Of course, that does not take into account the cost of treatments and the care required for associated problems, which could and will be even more. In Bexley alone, diabetes costs the NHS £353 per person per year.

Last week, I attended a reception in the House of Commons for Silver Star, a charity campaigning for greater awareness of diabetes. I was pleased to meet Silver Star and learn about its work. I took one of its simple diabetes tests, and I am pleased to report that my glucose level result was 4.9, so I was deemed to be okay.

All the statistics highlight the challenge that we face and the number of people whom we need to assist. First, we must assess the problem’s cause, of which there are many—for example, poor choices, portion sizes, insufficient exercise, inappropriate advertising or a lack of culinary skills can all contribute to an individual’s problems. According to the Association of Public Health Observatories, just 30% of Bexley adults eat healthily, and the statistics on physically active adults in Bexley are significantly worse than the national average. Of course, every individual’s circumstances are different.

In some respects, we are fortunate in Bexley, as we were one of the first boroughs to achieve national healthy schools status for all our schools. However, I am concerned that a minority of adults who eat badly may be setting a bad example for their children. The figures on physically active children in Bexley are also significantly worse than the national average. That is not helped by the fact that the number of children being driven to school has doubled over the past 20 years, which is a national issue that is not confined to Bexley.

Of course, physical activity alone is not enough to address the problem. We need to think more carefully about what we eat and what we feed our children. England’s chief medical officer, Professor Sally Davies, recently said:

“Most of us are eating or drinking more than we need to and are not active enough. Being overweight or obese is a direct consequence of eating more calories than we need. Increasing physical activity is a part of the equation, but reducing the amount of calories we consume is key.”

This is why the Change4Life campaign is important. It provides helpful tips on all the changes that we could make to improve our lifestyles, and it is already directing help to nearly 500,000 people. The campaign’s core ideas—encouraging physical activity, cutting portion sizes, swapping particular foods, discouraging snacking, drinking less alcohol and reducing fat intake—are all sensible and manageable. I hope that more people will take advantage of those resources and take action themselves. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister and the Government to prioritise that approach.

Another issue of health concern is the problems caused by smoking. Smoking rates have remained broadly the same during the past few years. Tobacco consumption remains the greatest single cause of preventable illness and early death, and it is also a big contributor to health inequalities. I am encouraged that, nationally, more people are using NHS stop smoking services. The number of people who registered a quit date has increased in the past year, with an increase in success rates, too. That shows that people are willing to take action to help themselves, which should be encouraged.

I put on the record my support for the award-winning Bexley stop smoking service, which has been doing some excellent work to help my constituents quit smoking and lead healthier lives. The Bexley stop smoking service is led by Jo Woodvine and helps hundreds of people quit smoking every year by using a variety of different methods. I commend the work that it is doing, because its efforts are having an impact. One in five Bexley residents smoke, which is slightly below the national average. However, I am concerned that 17% of women in Bexley smoke through pregnancy, which, worryingly, is above the average. Smoking during pregnancy increases the risk of complications such as stillbirth, miscarriage, premature birth and low birth weight.

There are also age-related problems with smoking. Tobacco consumption is still most prevalent among the under-50s. Every year, more than 300,000 under-16s try smoking for the first time. By the age of 15, some 15% of children in England are reported as being regular smokers, which is incredibly worrying. I accept that action has been taken on this issue. The minimum age at which one can purchase cigarettes has been increased to 18 and the sale of cigarettes from vending machines has been banned. The Government have introduced a tobacco control plan to help reduce smoking, which takes account of the problems that I have highlighted relating to the prevalence of smoking among adults, children and pregnant women. I agree that steps must be taken to reduce the promotion of tobacco and to improve regulation to ensure that children are not drawn into starting smoking. If more is done to highlight the diseases that can result from smoking, then adults may be persuaded to quit.

The substantial cost to society from smoking is estimated to be more than £13 billion a year, which includes NHS treatment, productivity losses and clear-up costs. However, only £11 billion is raised in taxes from tobacco. The Government are therefore right to consider ways of making smoking less affordable, as a disincentive. Most importantly, the Government need to ensure that NHS stop smoking services continue to be properly supported. The all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health has highlighted how cost-effective those services are, estimating that the Government benefit by as much as £1.7 billion a year through the prevention of serious and costly diseases.

Alcohol dependence is another area of great concern, and it is a major public health issue. Dependent drinkers are the drinkers at greatest risk of admission to hospital for a range of illnesses. There are an estimated 4,000 dependent drinkers in my borough of Bexley, and as many as one in seven people are putting their health at risk by binge drinking. While those figures are not as high as in some other areas of the country, they are symptomatic of the wider problems facing our nation. The latest alcohol statistics for England show that one in four men and one in five women are drinking more than the recommended number of units in an average week. On average, children—yes, children—consume 11.6 units a week.

Excessive drinking also has a significant impact on our health service. For example, since the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003, which allowed 24-hour drinking, the number of hospital admissions due to acute alcohol intoxication has doubled and the number of admissions wholly attributable to alcohol has increased by 70% locally, which is broadly in line with national trends. Between midnight and 5 am, the majority of hospital admissions are alcohol related. I was, and remain, opposed to the liberalisation of the drinking hours in the 2003 Act, which was a grave mistake.

Many long-term problems—alcoholic liver disease, hepatitis and cirrhosis—can be caused by excessive consumption over a long period of time, and they can lead to organ failure. Deaths from alcohol-related liver diseases have doubled in the past 20 years, with the overall cost of alcohol-related harm now standing at £2.7 billion a year. It is therefore vital to address the situation. There are simple steps that individuals can take, such as tracking alcohol intake, ordering smaller quantities or reduced-strength drinks, or swapping their drinks for alcohol-free versions. While retailers and drinks manufacturers promote the Drinkaware campaign, the industry needs to do more.

I am concerned about tuberculosis in London and about the current guidelines on prevention. A report published by London Health Programmes in June stated that, between 1999 and 2009, the number of TB cases in London rose by 50%. London now has the highest TB rate of any capital city in western Europe and accounts for 40% of all cases in the UK. Those trends are worrying. In Bexley, there are currently less than 20 cases of TB per 100,000 of population each year. However, during the same 10-year period, the Department of Health issued new guidelines to primary care trusts that recommended the withdrawal of the universal BCG vaccine. TB is an infectious disease that can affect any part of the body. It is curable, but detection is crucial. Early detection can mean relatively simple and cheap treatment. If left undetected or untreated, as in 12% of cases, the disease can become drug resistant, meaning more complex treatment at a hugely increased cost. The approach to prevention and treatment of TB therefore needs to change.

I am concerned that family travel is not given enough consideration. Many Bexley children are taken on holiday to the Indian subcontinent or to sub-Saharan Africa during school breaks, particularly in summer, and might be exposed to the disease. Consequently, there is a potential risk that, when the family returns to the UK, others might come into contact with the disease. I appreciate that prolonged exposure is required in order to transmit the disease, but this might happen and I am concerned.

As London Health Programmes has identified, targeting has been inconsistent. High risk groups, such as the homeless and those with lower immune responses caused by other problems such as drug taking or alcoholism, have not been given enough attention. The recommendations made in the draft London TB plan, which aims to improve the early detection of TB and the effectiveness of treatment as well as to reduce the risk of transmission, must be carefully considered. In particular, the Government should seek to implement the proposal that all newborn children should be vaccinated within six weeks of birth to protect them from TB. This welcome suggestion could be an effective measure to prevent cases of the disease. However, it would not address the problem for children in my borough, who have still not received the BCG vaccine because the Department of Health felt that we did not have enough cases per 100,000 of population. I would like to see a limited programme in the next few years for children in London boroughs who have not received the vaccination.

Bexley is a very good place to live and work. I do not want to say that it is all negative, because it is not. There is a huge amount going on in Bexley that is to be commended, and I put that on the record. The vast majority of people in our borough are really good people—moderate, reasonable people—and educating, helping and advising them is the way forward. However, Bexley is not immune to increasing health issues. I hope that the Minister and the Department will support— I know this is not her brief, but I cannot resist the temptation to include this in my remarks—plans for a health and well-being campus to be established at Queen Mary’s hospital in Sidcup. If approved, this could begin in 2014 and provide vital services, such as primary and community care, GP services and hospital services, all on one site. As part of the plans, Bird college, a dance, music and theatre performance centre, hopes to be on the site as well, which could provide real benefits for public health. The strategic outline case has been submitted, and I hope that that important project can progress.

I also urge the Minister to consider the role that community pharmacies can play in helping to reduce health inequalities and public health problems. At the heart of the local communities that they serve, they are uniquely placed to offer advice to significant numbers of people. They can sometimes be more accessible than GP services, and they can be found in retail settings.

In conclusion, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on all the tremendous work that she is doing on public health. The Government are right to prioritise public health and to ring-fence finance. I support strongly the transfer of increased responsibilities to local councils on public health issues. Fundamentally, I believe that education and awareness are vital. If public health problems are to be properly addressed, we need to ensure that everyone plays their part—schools, parents, businesses, charities, and local and national government—otherwise we could be storing up huge problems in our country, including Bexley. I am grateful for the opportunity to make these few points today, because it is very important to address public health issues for the future.

11:19

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you this morning, Ms Osborne. I do not believe that we have met in Westminster Hall before.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett) on securing the debate. He does not miss an opportunity to raise issues of public health in his constituency. As my hon. Friend and all of us do, I want to see a public health system worthy of its name, set up with the sole purpose of protecting and improving the health of everyone in this country. The public health White Paper outlines how we intend to achieve that, with ring-fenced funding, health and well-being boards and joint strategic needs assessment all playing a big role. Every element is designed with local needs in mind, so communities and local organisations in his constituency will be able to play a bigger role than ever in improving the public’s health. On the whole, the residents of Bexley are healthier than the national average, but that does not mean for one second that a great deal of work is not still to be done. People living in the most deprived areas of Bexley can expect to live up to seven years less than those living in the wealthiest areas, which is a staggering figure.

It was a pleasure to be joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) and the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce). My hon. Friend rightly mentioned the importance of cross-authority working. In particular, as we move into the new systems, I stress the need for public health leadership. People in Bexley will need a strong and visionary public health system with expert leadership. I am sure that the council and the local primary care trust are considering carefully how to provide such leadership after April 2013, when the breadth and importance of the local council’s responsibilities will increase enormously. Those are big challenges, but they also represent a fantastic opportunity, and Bexley is well placed to capitalise.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford discussed his grave concern about obesity and gave us some figures, such as that 20% of year 6 children are obese, which is 2% higher than the national average. That is a shame, and the problem is not unique to some areas of the country, because England has among the highest rates of obesity in the developed world. Recent figures show that levels of childhood obesity are stabilising and that adult obesity rates may be levelling out, but the overall rates remain extraordinarily high.

We published a document, which my hon. Friend referred to, “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A call to action on obesity in England”, on 13 October to set out our approach. Through projects such as the healthy child programme, the national child measurement programme and the responsibility deal, we want to give clear and consistent messages on what the healthiest choices are and how people can make them. People need information and to recognise the harm that they do to their health by ignoring such choices. As I have said, local authorities will be at the forefront, and they will have that ring-fenced public health budget to use in ways that suit local people, doing far more good than a uniform approach that descends from on high in Whitehall.

The local NHS is taking steps to fight obesity and to encourage physical activity, in particular in children. The Bexley healthy schools project is working with every single one of Bexley’s schools and children’s centres, teaching children about the importance of healthy eating and physical activity. The parents’ education and children’s health project educates parents and carers about healthy and economical cooking. School food policies are also being reviewed with parents, pupils and staff, to ensure that children receive nutritionally balanced packed lunches that they will actually eat—there is no point in putting healthy food in front of children, if they then fail to eat it.

My hon. Friend mentioned Silver Star, and I am pleased that he got a tick for his own health, but he is absolutely right that type 2 diabetes is of considerable concern. I understand that the Bexley community diabetes project has had contact with nearly all diabetic patients in the borough. That project is centred on empowering patients and putting them at the heart of managing their condition while calling on health care professionals, when necessary. It is about personal responsibility, ownership and understanding that if people feel they have some control over their lives they do very much better. He also mentioned physical activity, and I thank him for specific mention of “Change for Life”—one of its successes is that it does not look like a Government-run programme—which has had a big impact. He might be interested to know that the brand will be used for action on alcohol in the new year.

We will be publishing an alcohol strategy in which communities and local government will again play a big part, because they will be able to take action based on what they think will work. Local councils are already involved with some of the social harms of alcohol—certainly anti-social behaviour and crime is of considerable concern—and with licensing. Local schemes and projects have contributed to Bexley having a lower than average rate of alcohol-related harm. For instance, the Bexley business support unit offers counselling, group work and medical help to people with alcohol problems. However, a great deal remains to be done. In April, an outreach service was commissioned to help people in the borough who had not used the services before or who find it difficult to access treatment. Data from the first six months of that service show that it has been successful.

On London as a whole, the Secretary of State for Health has backed a statutory London health improvement board, chaired by the Mayor of London. It is already drawing up plans for priority areas such as alcohol and childhood obesity and looking into promoting the use of existing licensing powers, helping accident and emergency departments share data on violence resulting from alcohol misuse and getting early interventions in place so people who misuse alcohol can get quick and effective advice, which is so important.

Smoking kills 80,000 people a year, and yet a persistent minority, which includes a significant number of people, continues to smoke. Each year, an estimated 320,000 children try smoking for the first time. The tobacco control plan to which my hon. Friend referred outlines our ambition to cut smoking rates in adults down to 18.5%, in 15-year-olds down to 12% and in pregnant women down to 11%. Many of us still feel that those figures are too high. Again, we need to give people information, but people also need support to quit. The plan demonstrates how we aim to achieve that. At the beginning of the month, tobacco sales from vending machines became illegal, which is a big start because such machines were a source of tobacco for children, and large, brightly coloured tobacco displays will soon be joining them in the ashtray of history. Displays will end on 6 April 2012 in large shops and three years later in small shops and other businesses in England.

My hon. Friend referred to Bexley’s stop smoking team, which helped 1,611 people give up last year, exceeding its target for the third year running. It has won awards, and he goes to great efforts on its behalf—this is not the first occasion on which he has mentioned it. Many people criticise local services, but it is right to acknowledge the tremendous job that they are doing. I hope that the Bexley team can spread that good practice around the areas in the vicinity. Anyone living or working in Bexley can access the service for free via a GP or participating pharmacy and, if that is not convenient, the team regularly provides services in more convenient locations such as libraries, children’s centres or a special bus outside a local supermarket.

My hon. Friend mentioned TB, and he rightly stated the specific problems for London. We always keep the evidence under review, and we are guided at all times by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. He is right that the issue is complex, but there is no doubt that London has more than its fair share of the problem. As I have said, strong public health leadership in such fields will be extremely important. I assure my hon. Friend and the other two hon. Members present in the Chamber today that the Department of Health and the London strategic health authority support the Mayor of London’s health inequalities strategy. Inequalities simply have no place in modern society, and everything that we can do to lessen them is worth pursuing. I want to see local councils arguing across the council chamber about how it is no longer fair for their residents to live less long that those of another council in the same area.

I thank my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to raise yet again the need for the public to improve their health. It matters to stop illness, disability and premature death, but it also matters as we live longer, because staying well as we live longer is becoming increasingly important to us all.

11:29

Sitting suspended.

Internet (Governance)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Joe Benton in the Chair]

14:30

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to debate under your stern but friendly eye, Mr Benton.

I intend to explain why the debate is important, provide my own report back on the Internet Governance Forum in Nairobi, look at the wider questions of how Parliament deals with internet and communications technology issues and suggest how Parliament and Government can push those issues up our national agenda. I am pleased that other officers of the Parliamentary Internet, Communications and Technology Forum will be taking part in the debate, as we asked jointly across parties to have this debate today.

The debate is important as a milestone in the development of parliamentary interests in the internet and in the development of proper accountability for British MPs’ engagement with the issue over a number of years. It is an attempt to bring the issue of communications technology into the parliamentary mainstream. The internet now pervades so much of our national and personal life—there is an enormous impact, even on those who do not use it—that it is essential for Parliament and Government to take a strategic interest in its development, which has been exponential in nature. The internet affects everything from national security to personal and family communications. As we saw during the summer, it has been grasped as an opportunity by those who want to nurture community action as well as by bad people and by organised criminals and terrorists.

Business challenges and opportunities range from the protection of intellectual property to savings and opportunities for the public service, and we need to ensure that our infrastructure and businesses are at the cutting edge of the fast-moving international communications market in hardware, software and services. Both the internet itself and wider issues of communications technology—ICT—are absolutely crucial to our economic success, our place in the world and our social development as a nation.

There have been valiant efforts to give a parliamentary focus to these issues, but it has mostly been done at the margins of Parliament, not at its heart and not through mainstream debate. I hope that today’s debate will establish a tradition for an annual debate on internet and ICT issues, with Ministers and Members across the parties taking stock of the developments of the past year and looking forward to future challenges.

The engagement of MPs has not been characterised by Members pursuing their own interests in isolation but through cross-party activity, co-operation between both Houses and the active engagement of Ministers. Above all, it has been done through a unique level of multi-stakeholder engagement. That is an ugly term, but no one has yet come up with a better one. The reality of partnership working and co-operation is far more beautiful than the terminology.

Today we can report formally on the annual United Nations event, the Internet Governance Forum, held this year in Nairobi. I am delighted that the Minister who will respond to the debate attended both the main forum itself and the high-level event held on the Monday before its formal opening. He was extremely effective in his interventions. I believe I speak on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce), who was also at the IGF, when I say that, with the Minister, we were able to deliver a robust “Team UK” approach in Nairobi.

[Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Although I was not at the Nairobi event, I was at the event in Lithuania. It struck me that very few parliamentarians were present, but there were people from the Pirate party. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is crucial that MPs from other countries attend such events to stop the spread of lawlessness through the likes of the Pirate party?

[Alun Michael]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He brought considerable interest, particularly in intellectual property, and creativeness to the discussions in Lithuania. There were more mainstream parliamentarians in Nairobi this year, but he is right: if we are not engaged, we leave a vacuum, which would be a great pity.

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I apologise to you, Mr Benton, and to the House for having to leave for another speaking engagement on behalf of the Science and Technology Committee. I was very impressed—unusually—that the Minister took the trouble to attend the forum this year. That is a fantastic step in the right direction. If we can create the necessary collegiate approach in this difficult area, we can address the problems that have just been raised. I want to say well done to my right hon. Friend for his perseverance both in government and in opposition in driving the agenda forward.

[Alun Michael]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He is right about the importance of the Minister’s attendance this year. It made a significant impact on many people from other countries and showed an excellent example.

Engagement with the IGF has been nurtured by Nominet, the dot-UK domain name registry, which has enabled IGF attendance by parliamentarians; young people from the UK, who have also made a considerable impact; and other representatives of civil society. I pay tribute to the chief executive, Lesley Cowley, and Martin Boyle, a former Department of Trade and Industry official when I was a Minister, and their team at Nominet. Their financial commitment and organisational support is a superb example of corporate social responsibility and of partnership between industry, Parliament and Government. It has enabled us to put the UK in the forefront of internet governance worldwide. I have put the appropriate declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in respect of their support and my attendance at the IGF.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I hope that my right hon. Friend will mention an internet issue that my constituents are concerned about: the use of abusive language on the one hand and child pornography on the other. One of my constituents, Mrs Jane Osmond of 7 Newcombe Road, has written to me about that. She is part of a major campaign, which relates to the subject of the debate.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend makes a good point; it is an important issue. Today in Westminster we are celebrating the 15th anniversary of the founding of the Internet Watch Foundation. I hope to attend that event after this debate; I hope others will attend, too. The IWF is proof of the capacity of Government, with the support of parliamentarians and the engagement of industry and police, to tackle online child abuse more effectively than having additional legislation that might not work. We have achieved more in tackling online child abuse in this country than could have been done through additional legislation.

[Mr Cunningham]

My right hon. Friend’s aims are laudable and I have no quarrel with them. However, my constituents feel that they have been given the run-around. I have written to the Minister about these issues and we have been pointed in a number of directions, but there does not seem to be a major clampdown or any real effort in the area.

[Alun Michael]

In terms of child abuse images online, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre has been successful in pursuing people who are involved in child abuse. In educational terms and in pursuing the bad people, CEOP has been effective. I am a member of the Home Affairs Committee and we are concerned about CEOP being merged with the national police agency. Assurances have been given, but we need to keep our eye on CEOP to ensure that it continues to be effective. We also need to keep up with the technology that the bad people are using.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the debate. In relation to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), my concern is that when constituents write to me on the same issue, I write to the Minister but the letters are then transferred to the Home Office. Would it not be more sensible for questions such as those from my constituent from Troon, to be answered by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport? If the issues are not to be addressed by that Department, is it better for them to be looked at by the Home Office?

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend illustrates one of the big problems in dealing with the internet. As I said, the internet is so pervasive that it affects every area of life, including technology and intellectual property, and sometimes leads to the abuse by bad people of the opportunities that it provides. Such issues should be dealt with by the Home Office because law-breaking is involved.

My hon. Friend also illustrates the crucial need for a joined-up approach across Departments and agencies. A couple of years ago I worked on internet-related crime, but I gave up once I had identified nine Departments that had a bit of the action—without even taking account of the different agencies, police bodies and so on that were involved. I believe, however, that co-ordination has improved; we have the central unit based with the Met, and the National Fraud Authority that looks at online fraud. People need greater clarity. Get Safe Online is an enormously important resource that I advise people to consult first when looking for advice on what to do. It requires, however, increased support across industry and by the Government, and it must explain clearly who should look where and for what. My hon. Friend makes a powerful point.

I return to the Internet Governance Forum. As the Minister responsible for industry in 2005, I led the UK delegation to the world summit on the information society in Tunis. Journalists predicted that the talks would collapse because the Chinese, and others, were demanding a new international agency to, “run the internet”, and the US was saying, “Don’t change anything.” Two great public servants, Nick Thorne, then the UK permanent representative to the UN in Geneva, and David Hendon, a senior official at the Department of Trade and Industry, promoted “dynamic coalitions” and “enhanced co-operation” as a better option to bureaucracy. The IGF was born as part of that process and as an annual event for building consensus.

Today, the IGF process no longer depends on one annual event, and countries worldwide have seized the opportunity for co-operation, both between stakeholders and at regional level. This year’s IGF saw governmental proposals from India, Brazil and South Africa to bring the forum under centralised UN control, and Russia, China, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan called for the General Assembly to establish a UN code of conduct for information security. If such a code were to go through as proposed, it would focus primarily on affirming the sovereignty of national Governments to regulate internet traffic and content. That would exclude the voices of industry and civil society from regulation of the internet, which in turn would stifle the freedom, innovation and creativity that underpins the social, cultural and economic benefits that we all currently enjoy from the online world. There is also a Trojan horse agenda that would empower certain repressive Governments to censor and restrict any online content, discourse or behaviours that they did not like.

Will the Minister affirm his steadfast commitment to the current multi-stakeholder approach exemplified by the current IGF process, and will he join me in rejecting the idea that governance of the internet should be the sole preserve of monolithic and rigid Government negotiations? Will he ensure that the UK continues to provide leadership through the donors group? It is small change, but we must be at the table. Although this year’s IGF saw a welcome spike in levels of industry involvement, does the Minister agree that there is always room for more?

For years the IGF process was nurtured by two superb international diplomats, Nitin Desai as chairman, and Marcus Kummer as secretary. In Nairobi, however, I had to condemn the failure of the UN to appoint successors in either of those posts. That the event was such a success is a tribute to the vitality of its participants, but the UN is not doing its job properly; when I said as much during a high-level ministerial meeting, my comment received the loudest applause of the day.

British parliamentarians have been at the forefront of the IGF since its start, and our engagement is highly valued and respected across the world. Over the years we have worked with parliamentarians from other countries, notably the Kenyans and members of the European Parliament such as Catherine Trautmann and Malcolm Harbour. It is interesting to note, however, that we have not yet managed to properly link the IGF debate across Europe. We have the European dialogue on internet governance— EuroDIG—but that is serviced by the Council of Europe and has a focus on human rights and criminal law, which although an enormously important part of the international debate, is not all of it.

That work of the IGF goes wider than the European Union, which is its strength, but it also leaves a gap. In Nairobi we talked to colleagues from the European Parliament about the need for MPs and members of national Parliaments to be connected within the European Union. We do not have a European IGF that uses the same model as that developed in east Africa and other places.

The European Commissioner, Neelie Kroes, set out her approach, but without joined-up action by parliamentarians, industry and Governments in Europe, we will not get our point across. I suspect that hon. Members across the Chamber would agree on the need to avoid the domination of bureaucracy and rules in the European approach to the internet and internet-related issues. We need joined-up working by Team UK.

This year at the IGF, Monday was set aside for a high-level, ministerial event. Such occasions can become stodgy, with long speeches from Ministers, but this one was different. After Ministers—including our Minister—had spoken, formalities segued smoothly into a discussion, with authoritative figures such as Vint Cerf responding on some of the extremely important points under discussion. It was an excellent launch for the four days of the IGF, but I made a proposal that I believe should be incorporated in next year’s event. My suggestion is for Tuesday morning to be given over to statements of concern or other relevant issues, so that Members of Parliament can set out problems that have arisen in their Parliament or constituency. That would enable parliamentarians to be the voice of the people, rather than a second rank of techies, and would provide an opportunity for multi-stakeholder partners to respond to those concerns during the following few days, in parallel with other issues raised in advance. That suggestion received a positive response from industry representatives, who described it as an opportunity to complete the circle of policy development and accountability to the public.

The basic principle of the IGF is to bring together the four partners—Governments, parliamentarians, industry and civil society, including academics and others—to identify issues that need resolving, and seek solutions without requiring or mandating them, or limiting the debates in any significant way. It does not, therefore, lead to resolutions or treaties. The principle has been taken up by individual countries and on a regional level, particularly in east Africa, so it was appropriate that this year’s IGF was hosted there. As a result, the IGF is now a process rather than just an event, although the event remains important.

Great progress is being made in the Commonwealth IGF with its emphasis on child protection—the issue raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) and for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe)—and access.

[Mr Jim Cunningham]

The issue is not only about child protection; abusive language or threats of rape are also matters of concern.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend is right; I agree that the agenda is broader. The Commonwealth IGF started by looking at child protection, but behaviour is the big issue.

The development of a co-operative model for internet governance has developed quickly and positively. However, compared with the exponential growth and the mind-boggling levels of innovation that the internet has unleashed, that development looks, and feels, slow. That is why we in Parliament must be more ambitious, more impatient and better connected in every sense of the word.

To improve the quality of debate in Parliament, those involved informally in the work of relevant all-party groups have tried to bring everyone together to serve Parliament better. It is fair to say that for several years the cross-party architecture that focuses on internet and communications issues has been in a state of flux, with a proliferation of groups. Companies found it increasingly difficult to determine which meetings to attend and which groups to engage with. Equally, many MPs found the complexity and diversity of cross-party structures very challenging to digest. In fact, in the last two Parliaments, most MPs chose as the simple solution non-engagement, rather than struggling to get their heads round an ever-expanding ecosystem of interwoven groups and associations. I pay tribute to the 2010 intake of new Members, who have provided refreshing input from both sides of the House. That encourages me to believe that we can make a difference nationally and internationally in the future.

The online world and the associated technologies and patterns of use are constantly evolving at breathtaking speed. Without a cohesive and continuous commitment from parliamentarians to be connected with and informed about current developments in this sphere, Parliament will quickly fall hopelessly behind.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the debate and I share his hope that Parliament will debate the internet at least once a year. On the point about the internet’s fantastic speed of innovation and the changes that it has made to our everyday lives, does my right hon. Friend agree that it was unfortunate that following the unrest—the riots—during the summer, a number of parliamentarians on both sides of the House were seen to react by condemning aspects of social media that enable people to communicate with one another, while not equally recognising the tremendous support that the internet and social media give civil society? Does my right hon. Friend further agree that we need to ensure that parliamentarians are champions of the internet and the innovation that it brings, while obviously recognising the dangers?

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend, who is one of the exciting group of 2010 new Members to which I referred, makes an excellent point. In the Internet Governance Forum, it was rather worrying to find that a large number of participants from across the world “knew” that the UK had tried to close down social networks. We had quite a battle to make it clear that the UK had not done that. Fortunately, the European Commissioner, Neelie Kroes, took the opportunity to dive in and endorse what we were saying. Given the pressure from the media to do something about something as cataclysmic as the riots this year, it was understandable that all Members of Parliament representing relevant constituencies felt under pressure to say something and, indeed, that the Prime Minister felt under pressure to say something when he arrived back in the country. Fortunately, common sense prevailed.

Immediately after the Home Secretary said that she intended to call together representatives of the social networks and give them a good talking-to—I paraphrase slightly—I wrote to her on behalf of the group, having spoken to some of the officers, and offered our help. I said, “There are Members of Parliament who take an interest in these issues. Can we help and can we engage our industry members in order to make a constructive contribution?” That was welcomed by the Home Secretary—we had a very good response—so it is another example of how the creation of a coherent, single group in Parliament has the capacity to help Government and properly inform public debate.

That is an example of exactly the point that I was making—the need for parliamentarians to be coherent and to work together on these issues. I said that without a commitment from parliamentarians to be connected with and informed about current developments in this sphere, Parliament would quickly fall hopelessly behind. That would be a great disappointment to those of us who know that knee-jerk legislation is not the answer to most or indeed any of our emerging technological challenges. As Gibbon said in “The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, laws rarely prevent that which they forbid. That is even more true about the internet than it was some 150 years ago, when those words were written. Legislation is a blunt, unwieldy and ultimately retrospective tool, incapable of the speed and flexibility required to regulate such a rapidly evolving system. That is why we, as parliamentarians, need to be quicker on our feet, more joined-up and more immediate in our response to events.

However, reluctance to legislate does not mean that we should not seek to regulate online activity. The point is simply that we will not achieve the results we want by enacting laws that would be out of date by the time they hit the statute book. The time scale for a new technology coming in or a development that moves people on from Facebook, or whatever the current means of communication is, means that legislation will be well out of date by the time it is enacted, so flexibility is required.

[Mike Weatherley]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way to me again. Would he like to clarify his position? We all accept that things such as the IGF are a good talking-shop and that these issues should be discussed at length by the various countries and parties involved, but is he saying that no legislation is worth having, not even legislation to set out the principles relating to intellectual property rights and so on, which would not be out of date once it was enacted?

[Alun Michael]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I want legislation that is based on values, sets out broad principles and is technology-neutral. It is the behaviour that is bad, and it is intellectual property that we need to protect, rather than getting too deeply into detail. We need to go back to the legislation that set down broad principles and to go back on the excessively prescriptive and detailed legislation that removes flexibility. Essentially, I am arguing for us to concentrate on fostering a climate in which Parliament, Government, industry and civil society share perspectives, best practice and expertise to deliver a more adaptable and responsive regulatory approach, based on partnership and co-ordination, rather than top-down legislation. In other words, we need underpinning legislation for a coherent, co-operative style of governance.

[Chi Onwurah]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way to me a second time. May I respond to the very good point made by the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley)? Is it not also the case that there is a lot of existing legislation that applies as much to the internet as to any other form of communication and behaviour, whether it takes place in the real world or the virtual world—for example, libel laws—and that new legislation is often not necessary if the existing legislation is properly applied?

[Alun Michael]

Indeed. This is about good legislation, rather than the internet. I take great pride in certain legislation with which I was associated, such as the Ragwort Control Act 2003, the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, because properly framed legislation will stand the test of time. In the examples that I have given, it was a case of using capacity that already existed and simply providing underpinning legislation that would allow the real mischief to be tackled. The real mischief is the behaviour, rather than the technology.

On the issue of parliamentary representation and how we bring people together, Mr Speaker kindly hosted an event last year for representatives of different parliamentary groups engaged with internet-related issues, along with those concerned with international issues, particularly the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and those who serve the House through PICT—Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology—and the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology. That gave us the impetus to link the informal work undertaken by parliamentarians in partnership with industry to the mainstream and formal work of the House, so we have merged the long-standing Parliamentary Information Technology Committee, or PITCOM, and a relative youngster, the all-party group on the digital economy, to form the Parliamentary Internet, Communications and Technology Forum, which is an associate parliamentary group.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk for the work that he has done to ensure that Parliament has a well-informed and vibrant all-party group that benefits from the solid and senior engagement of both MPs and representatives of business and industry. We are delighted that Mr Speaker has agreed to be the president of the new group to signal the importance of that development. We are adopting a new and innovative model, with parliamentarians in the lead. Individual officers of the new group, across parties, some of whom are present, are taking responsibility for different parts of the work, which will include ordinary meetings, as held in the past by PITCOM. Lively discussions have been brought into the new group by members of the former group. We have continued the successful primary schools competition, “Make IT Happy”, with which many parliamentarians have become increasingly engaged and which was endorsed by the Minister in the House only last week.

We have a CEO forum, at which a strong representation of chief executives—no representatives or delegations are allowed—and of parliamentarians debate big issues with experts. For instance, on Monday, we were joined by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and by Professor Ian Hargreaves, whose work will be familiar to the Minister and whose recent report deals with intellectual property, which is important to our economy. Past discussions focused on a range of important issues, from cloud computing and cyber-security to the growth agenda and the boosting of UK technology skills; I know that the Minister has taken part in one of the discussions.

[Mr Donohoe]

While this question is not necessarily for my right hon. Friend to answer, has he secured, as a right, attendance by a Minister at least twice a year to that body? Would that not make all the difference?

[Alun Michael]

We have not needed to. We have had three Ministers this year by mutual agreement, and I am pleased by that response. Ministers have been prepared to come to meet us and industry representatives. The fact that Ministers and parliamentarians are at the table brings chief executives there, and the fact that chief executives come complements the other meetings that we have, in which people with more technical or detailed knowledge are able to take part. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire prompts me to note that I had missed out a reference to the British-American Parliamentary Group, another of the distinguished band of organisations that are important in the work.

I have already referred to the fact that the arrangements are already working in relation to our communications with the Home Secretary. In response to the request for comment, we have received responses from a number of parliamentarians, including my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), the hon. Members for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and for Harlow (Robert Halfon), and others who were more frequently involved in the all-party group’s work. Key points were made that the riots were not a breakdown of society as a whole, but isolated incidents of unrest followed relentlessly by the 24-hour media, and that the internet and online social networks were a channel for a widespread outpouring of positivity and reconstructive effort after the riots. That must be considered in balance with the use of the internet by some people to organise some of the activity. In the case of the police in Manchester, when people tweeted to say where the next activity was going to take place, the police tweeted back to say, “Thanks for telling us. We will be there too.” Therefore, it is not all one way.

Part of PICTFOR’s role is to raise our game at the international level, persuading more parliamentarians to engage with the IGF, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the IPU, and directly with members of overseas Parliaments, particularly the Americans, whom we are engaging through an annual internet event in Congress. The most important aspects are to use the partnership between MPs and industry representatives to inform Parliament in the mainstream rather than at the periphery, to ensure that we continue to punch above our weight in protecting the concept of an open, co-operative and multi-stakeholder approach to internet governance, and to fight off attempts to impose a centralised and bureaucratic approach to managing the internet, whether in terms of critical infrastructure, online behaviour or the exploitation—in a positive sense—of the internet’s potential.

We are bringing together opinions from industry and Parliament. I wish I had some time to enumerate the comments that have come in. We had hoped for a longer debate, but we are grateful for the opportunity today to raise these issues. We intend to summarise all the issues and provide them to both the Minister and MPs to inform future debates.

Just to pick up one point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central, there will be one debate a year to look at the overarching issues with the internet. The internet touches on so many issues that there are bound to be debates on Bills and on the Adjournment regarding specific issues, including those that have been raised by some hon. Members in their interventions on me.

My message to parliamentarians and to business is that, although good governance may sound boring, it is essential. Banking governance was boring, until the failure of governance in the world’s banks brought the international financial structures to collapse. Let us avoid such a debacle online by fighting for good co-operative governance of the internet now.

At a time of massive constraints on the public purse—I will not go into the discussion about whether they need to come so fast or cut so deep—it is not just tempting to use the efficiency of the net to deliver public services, but right and essential. However, that would involve a massive improvement in the quality of public procurement, of which I had some experience as a Minister. It is vital to recognise that some 40% of those who are not online at the moment were shown in recent research to be so resistant to going online that they would not do so even if they were provided with free broadband and a free computer. Some may be resistant or even perversely reluctant; others may simply be unable to cope. That latter group includes some of the most vulnerable people in our society. It follows that the exploitation of online delivery options by the Government needs to be costed in a way that ensures the availability of services to those who do not go online, which might involve paying for facilitation, perhaps at local libraries or in post offices. However, if it is not built into the Government’s model, it will bring online delivery into disrepute and widen the digital divide into a chasm, ultimately creating a problem that will involve even more expense to solve than building in the solution at the design stage.

Cloud computing is often highlighted as a challenge to public services, but in many ways, it is already with us. The challenge, in my view, is good management, including good data management, rather than major issues of principle. Security of infrastructure and our national security are enormously important, and they are given considerable emphasis by the Government. However, it is also important to deal with the low-level crime and nuisance activity that face people every day. I am pleading for a broken windows approach to the internet. Having succeeded in local crime reduction, that approach would be able to help us in the online world.

I am also a little concerned about the language that is creeping into the discussion. I challenged some police officers who talked about “cyber” as if it were a term of art to describe a discrete chunk of reality. They responded by saying that the police were merely reflecting the language of Ministers. If that is the case—I am not sure that it is—we need to change the language. Internet-related crime is not entirely about technology; indeed it is mainly about human behaviour and criminal activity. The use of the internet is relevant only in the same way that a burglar uses a motorway or footpath to reach someone’s house to break in.

[Chi Onwurah]

Regarding the police’s attitude to cyber-crime, does my right hon. Friend agree that all serving police officers should be knowledgeable of the way in which the internet can be used for crime? Does he also agree that to criticise those serving in the back offices of the police and to imply that we can tackle crime by being only on the physical front line does the police no service and may reduce the possibility of tackling virtual crime?

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is part of the discussion that we have been having in the Select Committee on Home Affairs on what constitutes the front line and the back office. Protection against the use of the internet for organised crime, as well as some of the issues that have already been raised, is extremely important.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

A friend of mine has recently become a special constable. When people are recruited to become special constables, it is very much about being on the front line, patrolling the streets. However, in the cyber-age, we should perhaps also invite people to become special constables to work on issues such as cyber-crime and on using the internet as a tool for policing.

[Alun Michael]

The Minister’s comments reflect something I said a while ago in the presence of some people from the Metropolitan police. They included Charlie McMurdie, who said afterwards, “Yes, it’s a good idea—we’re already doing it.” The Minister is absolutely on the ball, and some police forces are very much up to date, but others are not enabling staff on the front desk to tell people what they need to do when they wander into the police station and say, “This has happened. What should I do?” We therefore need to improve communication and to make better, more focused use of Get Safe Online, as I said.

The more we use language that emphasises the human damage, rather than the technology, the more likely we are properly to inform public policy and to reassure the public. That is why I am a bit dubious of using the word “cyber” as if it identified something different and discrete from human behaviour.

[Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that most cyber-crime, so to speak, is conducted by sophisticated organised criminals, who, in effect, have their own cyber-crime divisions? The only way we will tackle cyber-crime is by getting the message out there that we have to tackle these massive organised gangs.

[Alun Michael]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Actually, the police are getting on top of tackling criminal activity by organised gangs, and it is perhaps right that they do not talk too much about how they do that, because it is not far distant from the work they do in combating terrorist activity. What does affect public confidence are the low-level things, and we probably need more engagement with Get Safe Online and more public information in that respect.

I was about to apologise for taking rather longer than I had intended, but I have taken quite a large number of interventions. Given the need to focus on internet governance and the report from Nairobi, I have had time to touch only briefly on some enormously important issues. However, I hope this is only the first such debate, and I look forward to hearing from other Back Benchers and the Minister.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, I should tell Members that I propose to commence the winding-up speeches no later than 3.40 pm. I hope that contributors to the debate will keep that in mind.

15:12

[Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing the debate, on the great work he continues to do on this issue and on his role in helping to establish the Internet Governance Forum. I fully appreciate that he kindly took a large number of interventions, so I shall skip through my remarks at speed to let other Members participate in the debate.

The forum tries to answer the impossible question of how we regulate the internet, which is a global information resource used by more than 1 billion people. The Minister showed great leadership in attending the sixth conference in Nairobi, because he has allowed Members to become collegiate and to work almost on a cross-party basis in trying to tackle the issues before us.

The forum has done great work in establishing transparency and an acceptance that the internet is too important, and evolves too quickly, to be left to the traditional models of regulation and to international treaties. It focuses on developing an understanding of emerging challenges, pulling together a vast array of stakeholders to tackle them.

Underpinning the work of every group and every one of the 125 nations involved in the forum’s sixth meeting in Kenya was the desire to build safety into internet access, whether to protect vulnerable children from exploitation or nation states from cyber-attack. The challenges we face on the internet are so wide-ranging that they encompass everything from cyber-bullying—the UK Council for Child Internet Safety does excellent work on that—right the way up to the possibility of cyber-attacks on critical infrastructure by terrorists or rogue nation states.

Today, I want to focus on the mobile internet, which has probably been the fastest growing technology in history and has changed how we as a society interact with the internet. First, however, I want briefly to say something about the riots, because there was some talk about them earlier. Everybody has talked about social platforms and social networks, but they are not what causes the fear. As the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, Manchester police were probably grateful for the tweets telling them where the next riotous behaviour would take place. What people are concerned about, however, is BlackBerry Messenger and the fact that the information on it is encrypted. That is the type of area where we need to think about regulation. How do we regulate an organisation whose information is encrypted on servers that are not based in this country? That is the issue we need to tackle, and I would be interested to hear any comments the Minister has.

To return to the mobile internet, the UK now has 1.3 mobile devices for every man, woman and child. A real explosion in data traffic is under way. Ofcom’s analysis shows that data usage increased by 3,700% between 2007 and 2010, and independent analysts estimate that network traffic over mobile networks will increase sixfold by 2014. Internet-based traffic globally will grow by more than 2 billion usages, 85% of which will involve a mobile device.

The new smart phones have led the way in enabling customers to access new digital applications and services. More than 50% of all teenagers now have smart phones and use them to surf the internet, send e-mails and use social networking sites. I am slightly older than a teenager—in fact, I am almost twice as old—but I pop my laptop on only once a week, and I use my smart phone to do my internet banking, to deal with my e-mails and to do everything else. A huge number of teenagers no longer have laptops; instead, they have smart phones, iPads, tablets and other such devices. We are therefore moving away from needing to regulate what we might think of as the wired internet and towards needing to regulate the mobile internet, and there was some discussion at the IGF about whether we needed different regulations for the wired internet and the mobile internet.

High-performance mobile capability has the potential to allow services and speeds significantly to increase, compared with what we know today. For example, there has been huge debate about providing access to broadband coverage in rural areas, and mobile internet gives us the opportunity to do that.

Other benefits of the increasing use of mobile broadband applications include increasing access to, and lowering the cost of, health care by using solutions that remotely monitor patients and provide real-time data to clinicians. Online health e-systems, which all the mobile phone operators are developing, touch on an issue raised by the right hon. Gentleman: which Department is responsible for regulating such things? Is it the Department of Health or the Home Office? Furthermore, how do we regulate something that pervades and touches every aspect of our lives?

Mobile-enabled machine-to-machine technologies are supporting the roll-out of smart energy grids via smart meters in premises. Analysts suggest that this segment of the UK economy will grow by 30% per annum over the next five years. Is it the responsibility of the Department of Energy and Climate Change or another Department to regulate such things?

Another benefit of the increasing use of mobile broadband is the ability to mobilise and empower citizens through e-government, e-learning and e-volunteering. Getting involved in that way encapsulates what is meant by the big society.

Mobile broadband is crucial in supporting universal access to broadband across the UK and to delivering digital inclusion. It will be the technology of choice for many because of its convenience and the wide geographical access it allows. It will deliver broadband access to many rural areas that have never had mobile or fixed broadband.

However, Ofcom must structure next year’s auction of 4G mobile broadband spectrum so that it rebalances competition in holdings of spectrum ownership and supports competition in coverage. Spectrum policy is vital to maintaining competition in the delivery of mobile broadband coverage. At issue is the allocation of wireless spectrum, the lifeblood of mobile and wireless networks.

The potential for a severe spectrum crunch looms over the next decade, and even international regulators have started to point out that substantial amounts of new spectrum will be needed to drive the continued growth of the mobile wireless industry. Will the Minister consider reviewing the process for allocating spectrum so that we can give it to those who can use it to generate economic growth?

15:19

[Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on obtaining the debate, and on his leadership of the new group, the Parliamentary Internet Communications and Technology Forum, of which the hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) is also a member. PICTFOR is making good strides towards getting people from different places around the table for a series of debates, to which the internet is central.

I shall be as swift as I can, Mr Benton, so that another hon. Member can speak. I want to reflect quickly on the Internet Governance Forum in Nairobi, which the Minister attended. Several other colleagues were there too, and I should make the same declaration as my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth with respect to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and Nominet sponsorship. It seemed to me that there were interesting thematic divides at the forum that reflected discussions and debates that we have—or often do not have—here. It is clear, as has already been alluded to, that some Governments see the internet primarily as a threat, whereas others see it as a benefit, but with substantial caveats. The rest of us—although we are not perfect in any respect—tend to see the internet as best advanced through collaboration, common sense and a multi-stakeholder approach. Although the divide is not unbridgeable, in some respects it creates very different perspectives. A society that is not open at the best of times will have some difficulty with the way it manages the internet. That is not to be critical of emerging countries, which have their own challenges, but we hope we can help them to come to a benign or constructive impression of how the power of the internet can be harnessed to everyone’s benefit.

In this place we tend to discuss technicalities. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth mentioned the Digital Economy Act 2010 and relatively few hon. Members engaged with that, although more would do so now, since last year’s intake. The reason relatively few engaged with the issue was largely that not a great deal of party politics was involved. It is a bit annoying that the Government insist on being commonsensical on most of the issues; we would rather it were different, as it would make our job as party politicians a lot easier, but it behoves us all to look at the intelligent arguments for pursuing one or another course of action. Of course, there are conflicting ideas about how to approach matters such as copyright, which was mentioned earlier, and freedom of use. I shall not bang on at length, but the Hargreaves report on intellectual property rights seems to me to be an intelligent step forward. It is super that the Government have accepted all 10 of Professor Ian Hargreaves’s recommendations. We must be aware that in the coming years it will be a constant—battle is probably too strong a term—contest, perhaps, to ensure that the multi-stakeholder approach that we are calling for endures, and we do not end up with an over-regulated internet. As with anything else, over-regulation would damage it and it would fall apart. That was one of the significant themes I identified.

A couple of my colleagues made interventions earlier in the debate, which were perfectly understandable and intelligent, and the kind of things that our constituents raise with us all the time, about bad things that might happen on the internet. An academic called Dr Vicki Nash, who was also at the IGF, said on the UK IGF Network:

“We spend a great deal of time balancing risks, identifying potential harms or assessing trade-offs in key values which does little to convince those who are ambivalent about getting online. Isn’t it time we redressed the balance?”

Through no fault of ours—well, who knows; perhaps it is our fault to some degree—there is an awareness in society about potential risks, but less of an awareness of the enormous benefits of the internet. We often think about internet issues through the prism of fear. It seems to me that it would be good if, over time, partly through the leadership of this place and the kind of language we use, we were to try to move beyond that. I suspect that to some degree it boils down to theories of human nature, if that is not too grand. On the whole people will use new things to do good things. We must do what we can to prevent the bad stuff, but inevitably bad stuff will happen, and we must minimise that. However, if we continue to think about the internet and its governance through the prism of fear, we will end up over-regulating it.

It is worth referring to a couple of other observations that were made by some of us at the IGF, which were helpfully referred to on the ukigf.org.uk website. One was that some emerging economies or developing countries are concerned about EU blocking practices. I do not mean to say that the practices they have in mind are wrong, with respect to the examples I heard in Kenya, but they see it as a restrictive practice. Lots of stuff coming out of Nigeria gets blocked automatically, because of the country’s reputation—deserved or otherwise—for economic crime on the internet. I have never replied to an email by giving my bank account details in the hope of getting the $10 million lodged in my account, so I am not sure how much of what is said is fear-mongering and how much is real, but nevertheless it has led to some emerging countries having their country domain names blocked. That is a pity and I hope that over time the Government, in conjunction with other Governments around the world, can do something about the relevant perceptions and practices.

I had not come across the Internet Society before I went to Nairobi. It is a very good organisation, with a good website, showing a series of models of how the internet could evolve. One model is called the common pool: that is, generally, a bit of tussle and roughness along the way, with, in the end, people stressing the collaboration, competition and sound evolution of the internet. There are other models, showing the risks of over-regulation. Governments might over-regulate because they fear the consequences in their own countries—if they fear freedom of speech, for example. Over-regulation might come about because large commercial interests demand that walls are put up for their commercial reasons. We must guard carefully against that and I recommend looking at those models on the isoc.org website.

I have been reading a book called “The Revolution Will Be Digitised” by Heather Brooke. Many hon. Members will know who she is. I do not see her around here much; perhaps that is for her own protection. She has written a pretty good book, actually. It is a romp through things that have happened—particularly, from the past year or two, WikiLeaks. She mentions the Icelandic modern media initiative, and that pooling of different legislation together for good use is quite interesting. I do not say that it is necessarily the exact model for the future, but it will be interesting to watch it as it evolves in the Icelandic Parliament.

Ms Brooke raises an issue that is a core aspect of another of the divides in our discussions of the internet, and the WikiLeaks phenomenon is central to it. There is a trend among some people to laud the release of information for its own sake, and to see that as reflecting a sound, open internet. I am currently a member of the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions, and it is my opinion that a balance must be struck between such openness and privacy. I am not as negative as some hon. Members about the Pirate parties, because I see them as putting a polemical argument that can be deconstructed and can be seen to have some valid points. The clash of ideas is important. It is necessary to listen to those parties’ lines of argument, make sense of them and break down some of their assumptions. I have found that they will often accept an argument, and they are a useful addition to the mix—not that I am encouraging any kind of piracy, obviously. The important thing is that we will have to find a balance between privacy—and everyone, including the pirates, stresses the importance of that—and the free flow of information. I do not propose to present the full solution in the next 30 seconds, but it is an important theme, which came out at the IGF.

When the IGF was held in Nairobi the Kenyan Government did a super job and flew the flag very well for emerging economies. I took the opportunity, while I was there, to have a long meeting with the Rwandan Foreign Minister. As the Minister knows, this Government have followed the path laid by the previous Administration and formed close contacts with the Rwandan Government. They have also provided strong budgetary support. Rwanda is not a perfect regime, but it is a progressive and positive force. One of things that it has done of which it is proud is to install fibre optic cables across Rwanda. Clearly, it wants to be at the forefront of the internet age, which is a big challenge for such a poor country. I have a particular interest in Rwanda and have found that people refer to Rwanda in all sorts of ways; sometimes they say good things and other times not such good things. When it comes to the internet though, Rwanda is making a genuine effort to bring the benefits of the internet to an impoverished, developing country—albeit one that will hopefully reach middle-income status in the next nine years, which would be a remarkable feat.

I encourage the Minister not to see the internet through a prism of fear, cyborgs and men in shiny suits. We are not talking about the silent footfall of the mad cyborg axeman. He should look at the whole area in a constructive way and accept that the divides that exist can often be overcome by intelligent discussion and debate, as I have found in recent discussions with corporate stakeholders and ISPs. The Minister should perhaps reflect on that fact. It behoves all of us to remember the enormous potential benefits that mobile networks and mobile access will bring to Africa.

15:31

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing the debate. As members of the Parliamentary Information Technology Committee, now the Parliamentary Internet, Communications and Technology Forum, we have attended some fascinating discussions over the past year on many of the areas under discussion today. The IGF in Nairobi covered a wide area and was entitled, “The Internet as a Catalyst for Change: Access, Development, Freedoms and Innovation.” In my short speech today, I should like to focus on just one area—access, which has already been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland). This one topic includes many elements, covering traditional wired access, the mobile internet, accessibility to the internet and the right of access of many people to the internet.

The most readily understood element of access is the wired access provided by phone lines and fibre-optic cabling. This country has a relatively strong position in that area. My home city of Edinburgh is among the best. According to a recent Ofcom study, it has an average maximum broadband speed of 10.1 megabits per second. Only 4.5% of people receive less than 2 megabits a second. I think that we can guess who represents all of them. Many rural and urban areas still lag behind. Kirkliston, a village barely 10 miles from the centre of Edinburgh, has speeds on its copper infrastructure of generally less than 1 megabit a second. Such speeds make real functional access for both individuals and businesses nigh on impossible.

I welcome the £68.8 million pledged by the Government as a contribution towards upgrading Scotland’s infrastructure. However, that money now sits in a bank account waiting for a strategy from the Scottish Government to emerge some time next year, which is not a great help to my constituents.

To be honest, the problem, or indeed the opportunity, is not really wired access but the mobile internet, a technology whose growth has outstripped all others and which, worldwide, will transform how the internet is accessed and, therefore, governed. Today, about half of all internet users, and a seventh of the world’s population, have already moved to mobile internet. A recent industry survey estimated that mobile broadband subscriptions would reach 3.8 billion or about half the world’s population by 2015. Another report predicted that by 2015, traffic from wireless devices would exceed traffic from wired devices. To date, the mobile internet has possibly been the fastest growing technology in history, but even that takes us only partially towards the access envisaged by the title of the IGF debate this year.

Everything I have talked about so far deals merely with the pipes and not with what comes out at the end. By that I mean the obvious difference between access and accessibility, which in itself covers many areas. There is an urgent need to consider how information is presented on the internet. There was much talk at the IGF of a move to a more multilingual internet and one that looks to put all users of the internet on an equal footing. Taking that down to local level, I am having a new parliamentary website designed with the help of the plain English campaign. In doing that, I have to take into account accessibility for users with varied needs. That is something that many companies and Departments need to spend a great deal more time on.

Equality of access across the world raises even more basic questions. The UN rapporteur on human rights has called for access to the internet to be a human right, giving individuals, as it sometimes does, their only access to an unfettered flow of information and a right to freedom of expression. That poses an interesting question for me, sitting as I do on the Joint Committee on Human Rights and on PITCOM; I am straddling both those strands.

In the past, many countries, Kenya included, have faced challenges to shut down or limit access to the internet. The internet in general and the social networks in particular have heightened our awareness of many such issues. For example, they were used to co-ordinate many of the uprisings in the Arab spring and the riots in this country.

We must stand by free, unlimited internet access in this country and abroad. The internet is fast becoming one of the key engines of economic and social transformation and growth across the globe. The internet governance framework will be an important way of ensuring that we focus not only on physical access but on access to freedoms of expression and association. I hope the Minister will rapidly do all he can to push forward both sides of that access agenda.

15:37

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr Benton. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing this extremely important debate. Ironically, when the Minister and I were debating one of the world’s oldest technologies this morning, this place was packed out. Now, we are at the cutting edge of technology and there are far fewer people, which is perhaps not the best reflection on parliamentarians.

What has emerged this afternoon is the complexity of the issues and how difficult it is to get the balance right. I was struck yesterday by the impact that the net is having on business development in this country. Despite the recession, net-based firms are expanding at a phenomenal rate and are completely bucking all trends. We are also aware of the positive role that the net and mobile devices have in developing countries. They enable people to know which markets to take their produce to and to save time on travel when travel links are not very good. It is clear that there are many positive benefits to be had.

Children and young people’s capability on the net and their capacity to use it for positive purposes are way ahead of the rest of us. Politically speaking, we have seen in north Africa and the middle east the huge impact of the net on enabling people to communicate. That had two benefits: access to ideas, which was not previously available to people there, and the facility for communicating swiftly, which was undoubtedly significant.

At the same time, however, there are risks and we need to consider the public policy aspects of the internet. One public policy aspect that I shall be interested to hear about from the Minister is whether the internet service providers or the owners of the technology are themselves competing in a proper market. Because the technology has emerged very quickly and because some firms have grown very speedily, I wonder whether there is both monopolistic and monopsonistic control of some parts of the market. We need to think about that issue, because obviously a firm such as Google, which has grown very quickly, is technology-based. In a way, one could almost say that it is a happy accident that Google has been so successful. One can imagine that similar market power held by other companies might not be quite so beneficial. We need to address that issue.

Labour endorses the report by Ian Hargreaves on intellectual property. We look forward to the implementation of many of his recommendations.

My hon. Friends the Members for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) and for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) spoke about crime on the internet. There are many dimensions, but I want to say something about child safety online and online harassment. A major piece of work is being done at the moment by some colleagues about online stalking, which is emerging as a significant problem. I wonder whether people take online stalking seriously enough and realise how terrifying and harassing it can be. We hope for some developments on that issue.

One of the things that I have noticed in the short time that I have been in the job of shadow justice Minister is that for many of the proposed protections people are supposed to engage in self-protection. For example, I went to a meeting last week where I was told by BT that it was quite simple for people to organise online protection for their children on their home computer; it was supposed to be perfectly straightforward. I went home, tried to do it and could not make the computer work for the next 24 hours.

Earlier this week, I visited another company and we discussed the use of cookies. I do not know how much you know about cookies, Mr Benton, but it was extremely interesting to learn how much information can be gathered through their use by the ISPs or whoever it is—I am not sure who it is, which reveals the shallows of my knowledge. Anyway, I was told once again that it is quite simple for people to go on to the internet and edit their own entry, to control the information held about them. Again, I tried to do that and again I completely failed. If we are to have a safe internet, it must be safe for people who are not technologically sophisticated. Going down the line that everyone must have a DPhil in physics to be able to protect themselves is not the place to go.

I reinforce the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth: it is important that we discuss different aspects of the issue in different parts of the House and think about the different elements of behaviour that impact on people. It is also important that we take understanding of the internet, its implications and its governance beyond people interested in the technology involved, because as my right hon. Friend said we cannot simply have technological solutions.

It is clear that there is a group of people who think that the internet should be like the forest in the 14th century—a place where outlaws can run free and unrestrained. That is not realistic and it is not what any of us who are here for this debate want. I respect my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce), but we have learned that piracy is not a very good idea. From the 16th century to today, we have had increasing developments in the international law of the sea.

[Eric Joyce]

I was not suggesting that piracy is a good idea and I was not referring to Somalia. I was simply saying that it is good to listen to polemical arguments sometimes, because sometimes they are made with considerable force. I would also caution against situations where some interests—I am not being negative about corporate interests—will sometimes use the internet to extend their control, such as was the case when someone wanted a book loan in the past but were not able to pay to file-share.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend makes a good point—I was only teasing him. However, the fact is that we have been told on a number of occasions that we cannot control things that are problematic on the internet because it is international; that was the first set of responses when people were raising concerns about the internet. Well, what that tells us is that we must have international governance arrangements. I am very pleased that so many of my colleagues, from all parties in the House, were in Nairobi to look at the international governance arrangements.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend is making a very good point indeed, but there is more connection between what she is saying and what my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) said than might immediately appear. One of the problems is getting two groups of people who take a diametrically different view from each other into the same room to have a debate. We have seen that in relation to intellectual property and exploitation of the internet. In that sense, my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk is right to say that we must not close anyone out of the argument, even if we ultimately reject the case that they are making. We must have a joined-up approach so that as far as possible everybody is in the room having the debates and understanding each other’s point of view.

[Helen Goodman]

Of course. My right hon. Friend speaks with experience and good sense about the need to take account of different perspectives. I also thought what he said about the nature of rules is important. He said that they need to be values-based, outcomes-based and technologically neutral. That is absolutely the right approach. Privacy offers an important example. It is no more acceptable to invade a person’s privacy using one technology than it is using another. Everybody must understand that, but sometimes we behave as if it is not the case.

That point raises another issue, which is whether different technologies tend to encourage different sorts of behaviour. If I were to tell you something quietly in the corridor, Mr Benton, and said, “Please don’t repeat this to anybody”, I am absolutely certain that you would not repeat it. Equally, if I was to go to my doctor and tell him something, and he wrote some notes down in handwriting and put them in a safe place, I would not be worried about them being leaked. However, in my mental health trust recently somebody took a memory stick out of the office, dropped it in the local car park and all the mental health records of everybody in County Durham became widely available. That kind of casualness or casual behaviour is more prevalent in the zone of computers. Although the values we use should be neutral in relation to the technology, I do not think that people’s behaviour is quite so neutral.

In conclusion, I hope that we can have further debates about this important issue in this Chamber.

10:38

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

It is a pleasure to appear under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I welcome the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) to her position as Labour spokesman on communications and creative industries.

I pay a heartfelt tribute to the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), not just for securing this debate but for his leadership on this important issue, both as a Minister and since leaving post. In the spirit of co-operation that I think has characterised the debate, let me put on record how helpful he has been to me as a new Minister, in establishing myself in the post and finding my way around it. His co-operation and knowledge sharing has helped me to get up to speed and to continue, I hope, to represent the UK effectively in these important debates. The hon. Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce), who was with us at the Internet Governance Forum in Nairobi, is now following these matters very closely, and will be an important contributor to debates on this issue.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) for his contribution on broadband, and I shall briefly touch on that issue now before turning, in the main part of my response, to internet governance. On the issue of the spectrum, which was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), we obviously know that the internet is very important. At lunchtime, I was at a retail store with people we were encouraging to get online—there is a campaign called “Give an hour”, run by Martha Lane Fox. Pat Harran, Mohammed Mir, Errol Hall and someone called Pitchit were there to get online, and I promised I would mention them so that they could look up Hansard online. Showing them how to find a Hansard debate on the Parliament website on an iPad was instructive because it was almost impossible; there is a message there for the parliamentary authorities.

I learnt an interesting statistic today that marries my two responsibilities in culture and communications. During the Frieze art fair, which lasted just four days and had 60,000 visitors, 1 terabit—a trillion bits of information—was downloaded. Incidentally, 85% of visitors were using an iPhone or an iPad, which shows the dominance of Apple, at least in trendy circles such as contemporary art. In 1993, 100 terabits was the entire amount of information transferred across the internet—I was virtually middle-aged then—so we can see how things have changed in a short time. My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage and the hon. Member for Edinburgh West are entirely correct to focus on the spectrum, and it is vital that Ofcom gets the auction rules right and that we are able to auction the 4G spectrum as soon as possible, because otherwise it will become more and more difficult to use the smart phone gadgets on which we all depend.

Turning to the substance of the debate, which is the Internet Governance Forum and the multi-stakeholder approach, I shall recount a short anecdote for the benefit of the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. The Foreign Secretary does not like the term “multi-stakeholder”; indeed, he has said that it is an ugly term, and at the London conference, which begins next week, I think he plans to use “co-operative governance”, which is a bit of a mouthful for a Conservative—he might even stretch to “mutual governance”. Perhaps the Foreign Secretary’s power will shift us away from “multi-stakeholder engagement,” but that is the term that people across the world understand.

The conference in Nairobi was very useful. I went because of the persuasion of the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, and I am grateful that people said it was good to see a Minister there. It was certainly worth my while, and I will continue to go as long as I hold this job, because it is important to have a presence there and engage with not just stakeholders but Government representatives who might have a different approach. The multi-stakeholder model is not universally accepted, and different models have been put forward. The right hon. Gentleman knows that moves are afoot to transfer responsibility for internet governance to the International Telecommunication Union—the ITU. The UK Government does not support that, and so in answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question, we will continue, I hope, to lead on this issue and support the multi-stakeholder approach.

There is a proposal from India, Brazil and South Africa, known as the IBSA model, to set up a new global body within the UN system, but I think that that would be an unravelling of the world summit on the information society—WSIS—principles that were established, thanks to the right hon. Gentleman, in Tunis in 2005. In addition, China and Russia have submitted to the UN General Assembly a proposal for the international management of the internet.

I subscribe to the multi-stakeholder model. The internet was built from the ground up. It is an innovative medium, and not just Governments but other stakeholders, civil society groups and business all must have their say if it is to remain so. One reason for the debate in this area is the continued role of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers. Recently, there have been concerns about ICANN’s approach regarding the .xxx domain name, but I am glad that as a result we have had significant reforms of the corporation and a more coherent role for its Government Advisory Committee—GAC—and are now well placed for the corporation to move forward, particularly as it releases more generic top-level domain names from next year.

We also have the re-letting of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority—IANA—contract, which is currently operated by ICANN under the auspices of the US Government. It is absolutely clear that the US Government take their responsibility in that regard very seriously, as a steward for the global internet. People who suggest that they would somehow seek to turn off the internet are completely wrong —there is even an untrue anecdote that they cut off Syria four or five years ago. It is important, however, that the US recognises such concerns, and I think that it does. For example, when the IANA contract is let, it might go to ICANN or it could go to another body, and that will be seen as a global body, although it will be registered in the US. Local law will apply to the country that owns the domain name, so .uk will continue to be subject to UK law. In any dispute, the relevant domestic law of the domain name will prevail.

In consideration of new generic top-level domains, there will be a requirement for community support for IANA to amend the root and thus add a new domain—.scot for example—to protect us against controversial root domain names coming forward. The operator of IANA will also have to introduce enhanced transparency so that a request for root zone changes can be tracked through the system. I hope that people who feel that somehow a UN or an ITU route would be better—in that it would reduce the influence of the Americans— understand that the Americans do not seek to influence the governance of the internet and that they regard themselves very much as stewards.

I have very little time left, but I am glad that I have covered the main points: support for the multi-stakeholder approach; concern about the two proposals that I have mentioned; contentment that the issue between GAC and ICANN has, I think, been resolved and moved forward; and the United States Government’s recognition and addressing of the concerns about the re-letting of the IANA contract. We have the important London conference on cyberspace next week, and I hope that some of the Members present will be able to attend. If not, I ask them to please let me know. I am sure that they will be able to attend if the problem is at our end.

Let me make a couple of other points. There is the importance of internet protocol version 6. We have run out, as it were, of domain names and need to move to IPv6, and I want to use this opportunity to call on industry, particularly the internet service providers and the mobile operators, to support 6UK, which is the business body charged with raising awareness of IPv6. So far, support has not been forthcoming, and it now needs to come from the people who will reap the main benefit—the ISPs and the mobile operators. On the philosophical approach—if I may put it that way—that the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland took, there is potentially common ground between us. I am interested in her monopolistic and mons—

[Helen Goodman]

Monopsonistic.

[Mr Vaizey]

I will not even try to say it. I will not give any views on that approach because I do not want to set any hares running.

There is also the self-regulatory approach to try to protect people from inappropriate content on the internet, and I welcome the ISPs’ code of conduct on active choice, which is designed to do precisely what the hon. Lady says, to give parents easy tools with which to protect their children. My approach with these businesses is to say, “This is the policy problem. You have the technical knowledge, so help us to solve it. Don’t simply say, ‘It can’t be done’.”

15:59

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

Fuel Poverty

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Sir Alan Meale in the Chair]

16:13

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Sir Alan. This is the second time that I have secured a debate in Westminster Hall on fuel poverty. The first time was last January, when we had just had the coldest December on record and, as we spoke, many of us continued to feel the effects of the cold. I called for that debate because I was troubled and concerned about the number of constituents who had contacted me to tell me that they were feeling the effects of the terrible cold weather. I said then, as I say now, that fuel poverty is a black mark on society. It is up to us to do something about poverty anywhere, whenever anyone is impoverished. I say that not from the point of view of the Government or as a politician, but as a human being.

I was heartened and encouraged by last January’s debate. After listening to the response of the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), I really felt that we got it. However, I find myself talking about the subject again today. Ten months later, the average annual bill for a dual fuel customer is £1,293, or 6% of median household income, compared with 3.3% in 2004. That means that an average family on an average income are edging ever closer to the disastrous figure of 10% of their income going on fuel bills.

[Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. My constituency in Devon, which is a rural community, has low income and great rurality. There is a higher percentage of pensioners in Devon than in any other part of the country. Many members of my rural community use fuel oil, as opposed to gas, and it is twice the price, so I share his concern about this problem.

[Chris Evans]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising that concern. Rural communities are harder hit because, as she has said, they use oil, the market price for which is out of control. Something needs to be done. I will not mention that too much during the debate, but I hope that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), will touch on it when he responds.

If an average family is being put into fuel poverty, we have serious problems. We talked about fuel prices in the main Chamber last Wednesday and it was evident that the Government need to review their energy policy. I am not going to talk today about how bad the energy companies have been—I mentioned that enough during my contribution to last Wednesday’s debate—but there needs to be root-and-branch reform. If I started going on about that today, I do not think that it would add to the debate in any respect, because, at the end of the day, fuel poverty is a matter of life and death for so many people and so many of our constituents. It means making the heart-breaking decision between eating a meal and heating their house.

I could cite a number of examples of older people who only put on one bar of their fire, or who heat only one room, to reduce their fuel costs. As I said in the Chamber last week, constituents have said to me, “I sit in the living room with my coat on, because I can’t afford the heating,” and, “I go bed at 8 pm, because when I’m in bed I don’t use heating.” It is absolutely terrible.

It is in vogue at the moment to blame the Labour party for everything. When buses are late or trains do not turn up, I am sure that, somewhere along the line, somebody will blame the Labour party. Despite such brickbats, I am proud that the previous Labour Government did all they could to address fuel poverty and improve the energy efficiency of homes.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend find it deeply worrying that this Government’s only answer to rising fuel bills is to tell people that they are to blame for not shopping around?

[Chris Evans]

As I said during last week’s debate, it is all very well to tell people to shop around but, if all the energy companies are putting up their prices across the board, how can people shop around? I also said that energy is not a luxury item—people have to have it. It is not possible to have superfast energy in the same way as it is to have superfast broadband. How can people shop around? It is a failure of the market. If we are going to ask people to shop around, the Government need to encourage more entrants into the market.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. On the failure of the market, energy prices in Scandinavia—in Sweden and Denmark—are higher than those in the UK, possibly because the UK has a more free market. In Scandinavia, however, they make a more comprehensive effort to make sure that they are energy-efficient, which makes a real difference in terms of fuel poverty, because their prices are actually higher.

[Chris Evans]

I still believe that the only way to drive down prices is to have more competitors. We have only six companies as competitors, they all seem to be pushing up their prices together—I am not saying that that is what they are doing, because a number of inquiries have said that they are not—and the regulator does not seem to be doing anything about it. I do not agree with that situation. We need to look at ways to bring in more entrants into the market. As I have said, however, that is not a debate for now.

The introduction of winter fuel payments, central heating programmes and the energy efficiency commitment have all played their part in easing the pain that people have felt in meeting their energy costs. However, I cannot talk about fuel poverty or pensioners in my constituency without mentioning the cut to the winter fuel payment.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to the Floor of Westminster Hall. Today, I met a group of about 20 people from Age Sector Platform in Northern Ireland. They indicated that approximately 770 people died from the cold in Northern Ireland last year. Does he share my concern that the changes to the winter fuel payment will contribute greatly to more people dying because they are not able to get the correct money?

[Chris Evans]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman completely. In Wales, 1,700 people are dying from the cold every year. As I have said, in this day and age, what does it say about us as a society when people are dying from the cold? It is absolutely terrible. I cannot put into words the shame that we all should feel if somebody dies from the cold.

On the reduction in the winter fuel payment, the Chancellor and Government Members have said, “It was only ever a temporary increase and we stopped the increase because Labour put it up.” It is all very well saying, “Oh, it was a temporary increase,” but once someone has got used to that money coming in, they tend to feel the pinch when it has gone. The Government need to reconsider that terrible decision.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned the number of pensioners dying from the cold in Northern Ireland. In my constituency of Islwyn, there were 41 winter deaths. If we get nothing else from the Minister today, I hope that he will make a commitment to do all he can to ensure that nobody else is added to that tragic statistic.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend represents a Welsh constituency. Some 26% of Welsh households are said to be in fuel poverty. In Scotland, that figure is 32.7%. We are expecting a cold winter. Does he agree that there is a crisis and that the Government need to consider introducing measures to ensure that we do more to help people with their heating costs?

[Chris Evans]

Absolutely. I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. Scotland and Wales have a lot in common. We are Celtic cousins, as is the hon. Member for Strangford. We share the same problem of fuel poverty and something needs to be done as a matter of urgency. I hope that we will hear something from the Minister about that.

Today, I want to talk about a group of people who are hardly ever mentioned. I want to pay tribute to Macmillan Cancer Support, to which I have spoken about cancer patients. This is a very important issue. Anyone who has had the heartbreaking news that they have cancer or who knows someone who has cancer does not need to be told how hard life can be. They are faced with months of treatment, heartache and worry, and the last thing that any family of a cancer patient should worry about is whether they can pay their energy bills.

Cancer patients are particularly vulnerable to plummeting temperatures and rocketing fuel bills. Many will be faced with fuel poverty because they have increased energy needs at a time when their income has dropped dramatically. Since getting involved in this campaign, I have heard many harrowing stories that underline just how hard people living with cancer feel the effects of high energy bills. The following story stood out. One woman said:

“My immune system is so weakened that I am very prone to colds and infections but I can’t afford to keep warm all the time. I cover myself in blankets and hot water bottles to help keep my joints warm. I am always in debt and behind with payment to the energy companies, even during the summer. It makes me panic. I try and give them £10 whenever I can, but to be honest I’d rather be in debt than get even more ill. I wish the government would realise that it’s not just the old who get cancer and suffer the cold.”

During treatment, 70% of cancer patients under the age of 55 lose, on average, 50% of their household income. That is why fuel poverty disproportionately affects those with cancer, and why one in four cancer sufferers also suffer from fuel poverty. Despite evidence that living in fuel poverty has a negative impact on the health and well-being of people with cancer, one in five cancer patients turn off their heating during winter because they are so worried about their bills. The problem is made worse by the fact that people living with cancer spend longer at home when they recuperate and as a result may be less active. They also have a higher use of appliances, such as washing machines and tumble dryers. The effects of chemotherapy may also make cancer patients more susceptible to the cold. As I have said in the past, one way of combating fuel poverty is by increasing the income of those who find themselves struggling with bills.

[Jim Shannon]

Is the hon. Gentleman concerned, as I am, that stress over financial issues adds to the health problems of people with cancer? It is important for those people to have money to get through such hard times.

[Chris Evans]

As I said, when someone has cancer, the last thing they need to worry about is money, paying the bills or meeting any other financial obligations. The top priority of someone with cancer and of their family should be to get better and beat that evil disease.

Cancer patients do not receive the support they need. For instance, the winter fuel payment is only paid to those who are over 60. Only 7% of cancer patients in fuel poverty are on a social tariff, and only those on certain benefits linked to low income are included in the carbon emissions reduction target super-priority group. People affected by cancer who are under 60 are not entitled to that support, even though roughly one in four cancer patients have not yet reached their 60th birthday. If this debate achieves anything, it is my sincere hope that the Government will give serious consideration to extending the winter fuel payment to particularly vulnerable groups, such as those with a terminal illness, the disabled or those undergoing treatment.

Cancer patients are poorly served by the Government’s schemes to reduce fuel poverty. Many rely on additional sources of financial help to pay high gas bills and, as a result, risk falling into debt. The warm home discount scheme is run by energy companies and provides certain groups of fuel poor energy customers with an annual rebate of £130 off their energy bills. That rebate can be provided either automatically or to other vulnerable groups as defined by the energy companies. Cancer patients will only be able to apply for support if they fall within the categories set by the energy companies. It is my fear that, unless the Government provide tighter guidance to energy companies regarding the eligibility for the WHD, vulnerable cancer patients will miss out. For instance, under the social tariffs set by energy companies, only 7% of cancer patients in fuel poverty receive support. I therefore hope that the Minster will say he will look again at the eligibility criteria of the warm home discount if it becomes apparent that it is not reaching the most vulnerable people.

One of the major problems with fuel poverty is that the people who are suffering from it are not always aware of the issue. I shall give an example. Many years ago, when I was working for my predecessor Lord Touhig, we secured a fuel poverty debate in Westminster Hall. At the time, he was president of the National Old Age Pensioners Association for Wales. He asked me to speak to the secretary. I phoned him up and said, “Ralph, Don is doing a debate on fuel poverty tomorrow and he is wondering whether you have any examples of it.” He said to me, “Well, the problem is that most people do not realise that they are suffering. Energy bills are a way of life. If we get cold, we put on an extra pullover or we put an extra bar on.” People do not seem to know that they are suffering from fuel poverty, which is a major problem when it comes to discovering other groups in fuel poverty, such as cancer patients.

The English housing survey currently used by the Government to calculate fuel poverty figures in England does not include questions related to a person’s cancer diagnosis, despite including questions about other disabilities. The Government must start collecting that data if they are to successfully target resources at those most in need. We need to consider targeting the winter fuel payment at the terminally ill. The Government should consider changing the English housing survey to include a question about cancer, alongside questions about other disabilities. Only by doing that will Government data give an accurate depiction of the number of cancer patients suffering from fuel poverty.

It is clear that more must be done by the Government to proactively prioritise people with long-term health conditions in fuel poverty who require support. The Government have acknowledged that the green deal will not work for fuel poor households as they are likely to be under-heating their homes and will be unable to take on debts or make significant savings. The Government have made provision to address that with the energy company obligation, which will subsidise energy efficiency measures for fuel poor households. However, I am concerned that the money available under the ECO will not be large enough to help all fuel poor and vulnerable households. Many cancer patients will not be able to access the support if eligibility is restricted to certain groups on very low incomes or qualifying benefits. That is why I am looking for assurances from the Minister that those diagnosed with cancer will be able to access support when the ECO comes into effect.

Energy companies are seemingly increasing their prices at will, and we are faced with the difficulty that people will fall into fuel poverty as soon as energy prices rise. My predecessor as Member of Parliament for Islwyn, Lord Touhig, was fond of quoting James Maxton, whose words have a special meaning now. He said that poverty is man-made and therefore open to change. If anything, fuel poverty is man-made, and with the political will we have the tools to do something about it.

16:29

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing the debate, and his continued and tenacious advocacy of action on fuel poverty. We all admire the way in which he is pursuing this agenda on behalf of his constituents, and I assure him that the coalition shares his concerns about those living in fuel poverty. It is a disgrace in the 21st century that so many people are cold in winter. For example, we know that it is very likely that each winter more people will die of fuel poverty than will be killed on the roads, which is a shocking statistic.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that my officials and I regularly meet with a wide range of consumer groups and other stakeholders, including not just Citizens Advice but Macmillan Cancer Support, which is taking this issue to heart, and Carers UK, which is doing a great job of speaking up for the most vulnerable in our society. I particularly recognise the issues that those living with cancer may face because they spend more time at home and need to keep warm. Through our policies, those people living with cancer on a low income should be able to access assistance to keep their homes warm more affordably.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are committed to protecting those who need help most, and committed to making change where change is needed. That is why we have asked Professor Harrington, the independent reviewer of the work capability assessment, and Macmillan to look at how the WCA assesses people who are receiving treatment for cancer and whether it can be improved. Professor Harrington and Macmillan have now submitted their report to the Government. We are considering the report and will come forward with proposals soon.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the fuel poverty statistics make depressing reading. While I do not seek to blame the previous Labour Government for slow-running buses, between 2005 and 2009, during the third term of the previous Labour Government, the number of fuel-poor households across the UK more than doubled. It did not do so from a small base; it went from 2.5 million to 5.5 million people. Of those, 4.5 million were in vulnerable households. The elderly, families with young children, the long-term sick and the disabled were all caught up in this rising epidemic of fuel poverty. The latest figures from the Welsh Assembly Government estimate that of the 1.34 million households in Wales, 332,000 households were in fuel poverty in 2008. If we are going to reverse this iniquitous trend something big has to change. We need to completely rethink, redesign and re-engineer our policies.

In order to find the right solutions, we need to make sure we ask the right questions. That is why we invited Professor John Hills, of the London School of Economics, to undertake an independent review of both the fuel poverty target and the definition. He has been asked to look at fuel poverty from first principles—what causes it, its effects and how best to measure it.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Will that review include off-grid customers, those whom my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) spoke about in relation to domestic heating oil? They have seen prices go up by 90% in the past year and are looking to the Government to help them to avoid falling into the problems that the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) spoke about so eloquently.

[Gregory Barker]

Absolutely. The rural fuel poor are the hardest hit of all. In the last years of the previous Labour Government, they saw, in real terms, the cost of heating their homes increase by 130%—absolutely iniquitous.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that fuel poverty has been rising in the past 18 months as well. We had one of the coldest winters, and external factors contributed to that. With regard to off-grid, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) conceded that he would meet with myself and other hon. Members. Is the Minister saying that he will look at the possibility of Ofgem, the regulator, giving the same protection to people who are off-grid as it does to those who are on the gas mains? They need that protection against fuel suppliers, not competition and regulation.

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. Protection in this area is overseen by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has that portfolio responsibility. I am sure that he will be pleased to meet with the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to discuss this matter, because we are concerned about fairness and practices that have been going on among the heating oil distributors. I know that my hon. Friend takes this issue very seriously.

The independent report being prepared by Professor Hills focuses on whether fuel poverty is distinct from poverty and why measurement is important. It provides an assessment of the current definition of fuel poverty, and identifies and analyses possible modifications and alternatives to the existing definition. I do not wish to be frivolous, but it has been pointed out that under the current definition of fuel poverty Her Majesty the Queen would be in danger of being tipped into those defined as fuel poor, because it takes more than 8.9% of the royal grant to heat the historic royal palaces. We have to ensure that the definition captures those who are in genuine poverty, rather than the more well-off who are making lifestyle choices in spending their income on such things. We have to ensure that we focus our precious resources on those who are genuinely the most vulnerable.

Tackling fuel poverty will be a huge challenge and a key part of the solution is undoubtedly to address the thermal efficiency of the UK housing stock. Britain has some of the oldest, leakiest and most expensive homes to heat in Europe. We urgently need to address this issue. We do not have the highest energy costs; we have among the highest energy bills, because we have to waste so much heating to actually keep warm. Both the carbon emissions reduction target and Warm Front, measures started under the previous Government are continuing, with work being done in the homes of some of those most at risk. However, we recognise that if we were to just continue with these measures, specifically with Warm Front, it would never get us close to meeting our statutory target of eliminating fuel poverty. In fact, Warm Front would take approximately 80 years to get close to dealing with fuel poverty.

We need a game changer and that game changer is the green deal. The coalition flagship Energy Bill, which contains the green deal, has now received Royal Assent. That is a significant milestone on the journey to launching the most ambitious home-improvement programme since the second world war. We expect to commence a public consultation shortly on secondary legislation to develop the precise design and scope of the scheme. We are working closely with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the green deal can be rolled out at scale, really ambitiously, right across Great Britain.

The green deal is necessary to deliver our objectives, but on a dramatically more ambitious scale than anything that has gone before. We aim to retrofit 14 million households by the early 2020s. Assistance for the fuel poor and targeting the most vulnerable will be at the forefront of this action. The domestic green deal is an opportunity for all householders, whether in the private sector, social rented sector or private rented sector, to improve the energy efficiency of their homes at no up-front cost. It will help protect people against price rises in the future through greater energy saving now.

However, there are drawbacks and we appreciate the particular needs and constraints of the most fuel poor. Green deal installations are paid for through future savings, and we realise that they may not be the full answer for all households. As the hon. Member for Islwyn pointed out, it is no good projecting savings on heating a whole house if the widow living there is only able to heat one room. We recognise fully the need for a substantial element of subsidy for the most vulnerable and fuel poor. That is why we will also introduce a new energy company obligation. Integrating the green deal and the ECO will provide further support for those homes that need it most.

We want to ensure that everyone who wants to can access high quality energy efficiency measures, so that they can cut their emissions and heat their homes more affordably, as well as creating a warmer, more comfortable and liveable home environment. The ECO will assist the poorest and most vulnerable households to an affordable warmth target, providing up-front support for thermal performance measures to help households to heat their homes more affordably. In developing the green deal and the ECO, we are removing the barriers to take-up, raising awareness and showcasing benefits to make energy efficiency a no-brainer for everyone.

We are aware that the long-term solution to the iniquity of fuel poverty is to renovate the UK’s building stock. However, we also need solutions to keep people warm this winter, and the coalition is requiring suppliers to provide a rebate of £120 to some of the poorest pensioners through the new warm home discount. We are also providing winter fuel payments and, if we get the anticipated cold snaps, cold weather payments. We recognise that energy prices are hitting many households hard at a difficult time, and understand consumers’ concerns about rising energy bills. That is why we have obtained a voluntary agreement with the suppliers, who will be writing to 8 million customers to advise on how to save money by changing to a cheaper tariff and will place a cheaper tariff signpost on the front page of most bills. Bills are far too complicated, and they need to be simplified and send much clearer messages to vulnerable and general consumers about how to save money.

[Albert Owen]

I support energy efficiency measures and Ofgem’s recommendations for simplifying bills, but does the Minister agree that it is perverse how many energy companies currently charge low users more money? Low users are often the vulnerable people mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn. Was that issue raised at the Downing street summit so that the companies got a clear message that they should not be punishing those low users?

[Gregory Barker]

The Secretary of State was at the summit, but unfortunately I was overseas. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman to summarise the key issues discussed, but I can assure him that such issues are at the forefront of our minds when we are making policy.

This is the first year of the warm home discount, and we will assist around 2 million vulnerable households. Many will be low-income pensioner households—exactly the sort of constituent discussed by the hon. Member for Islwyn—who are in receipt only of pension credit guarantee credit. We expect to find more than 600,000 of them and to provide them with a £120 rebate off their bill. Most will receive a rebate without even having to claim, a major benefit to such vulnerable people who might struggle with forms or not realise that they can make a claim. The data-matching process to identify automatically the recipient low-income pensioners for this winter is currently under way, and the call centre is now open to take general enquiries regarding the scheme. Over the four years of the scheme, it will be worth up to £1.1 billion which, at a time of widespread budgetary pressures, is a significant increase in funding on the previous voluntary agreement that also assisted many households under the previous Government.

Fuel bills in the winter months can account for around 60% of the year’s total fuel bill. By working with other Departments, we can ensure that we are reaching the most vulnerable with the assistance that they need. The Department for Work and Pensions provides winter fuel payments of £300 to those over the age of 80 and £200 to those over 60. Those payments provide assurance to older people that they can keep warm during the colder winter months, knowing that they will receive significant help with their fuel bills. In addition, the Government have permanently increased the cold weather payment from £8.50 a week to £25 a week, providing real help to those most vulnerable to the cold. Last winter, we made 17 million cold weather payments, worth an estimated £430 million of direct help to low-income vulnerable households when they need it most—

[Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair)]

Order. That concludes the debate.

Seagulls (Coastal Towns)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Westminster Hall

16:44

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I am pleased to have secured the debate, which gives me the opportunity to raise an issue that in recent years has affected the lives of many residents in my Waveney constituency, in particular in Lowestoft, as well as around the country, in coastal towns and further inland. In Waveney, there has been a problem in Beccles, some 10 miles from the coast, while problems have also arisen in such places as Bath and Birmingham.

Seagulls are part of the fabric of seaside Britain. Historically, other than following the plough, they have kept themselves to the coast. However, in recent years they have moved inland, nesting, feeding and breeding in buildings and on roofs, and in doing so causing considerable nuisance, stress and anxiety to nearby residents. In Lowestoft, much of the current problem centres around Waveney drive and the adjoining streets, and residents have been disrupted in a variety of ways.

Gulls are powerful birds, with a wing span of almost 5 feet, and they have messy habits. They have been known to tear apart refuse sacks and scatter the contents of litter bins in their search for food, making a mess and distributing litter, which has the potential to attract other, more conventional vermin.

[Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend also aware that gull faeces cause a risk to the quality of bathing water in towns such as Teignmouth in my constituency? The Environment Agency is having to look at ways of preventing the birds from nesting on roofs and by the pier.

[Peter Aldous]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s drawing that fact to my attention, as it illustrates the number of environmental issues that arise. Seagulls are indiscriminate defecators, with the ability to expel significant quantities of runny faeces on the wing. The consequences are most unpleasant for residents in their gardens and for anyone else out and about in the open. Householders cannot hang out their washing, and windows, cars and garden furniture are continually fouled and have to be cleaned. One household I know has stopped holding their annual family barbecue. Relaxing in the garden is no longer possible, while soiled clothes, sheets and towels have to be thrown away. There is an additional burden on local authorities’ cleaning duties. Noise nuisance is also a factor. Gulls have a distinctive, prolonged, piercing and very loud laughing call. For many people, a good night’s sleep is a thing of the past.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the issue. He has mentioned some places in England, but even Cardiff in Wales has a massive problem. Because of the noise factor mentioned by my hon. Friend, my constituent, Mr Paul Harvey, has started a campaign in Wales on the issue, but the council tells us that national legislation is needed and that there is none that can be used at the moment.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point, and I will be coming to that subject. He is correct; at the moment, nuisance as such is not something that enables one to take appropriate measures. It might be appropriate to change the law, and I will come to that point.

As I said, gulls make a distinctive, piercing sound, and in certain areas, people find that they can no longer keep their windows open on warm summer nights. During the breeding season, nesting birds have a tendency to dive-bomb people they perceive as a threat to their nests or offspring. That can be extremely alarming for the elderly and the young. In one incident, riggers putting up a TV aerial were attacked and had to return on another date to complete their work.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on raising an issue that has stretched many miles from the sea all the way up the Gloucester and Sharpness canal to the historic city of Gloucester, where seagulls are as much a pest as they are in his constituency. Does he agree that the only way to solve the problem of those birds almost of mass destruction is, on the one hand, for those of us who have tips to close them as fast as possible so that the gulls do not have access to a great food source and, on the other hand—the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans)—that the Government need to consider whether they should authorise more action by councils to co-ordinate the clearing of gull nests?

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point; I am aware that the problem is acute in Gloucester. We need to look at a variety of measures and I will certainly raise the two points he mentioned.

People are no longer able to enjoy their homes; there is an added health risk and a negative knock-on effect on the saleability and value of houses. Why and how has the problem arisen? It appears that the situation has become significantly worse in the last five to six years. Residents who have lived in their homes for 32 and 52 years respectively have told me that until recent years there was not a significant problem.

There is a need for research to accurately establish the causes, although anecdotally and based on feedback I have received from around the country, I suggest there could be a variety of reasons. First, the decline of the fishing industry that has taken place in Lowestoft and around the British coast may have removed more traditional food sources, thereby forcing gulls to move inland in search of other forms of sustenance. Secondly, the availability of discarded fast food and overflowing waste may encourage birds to move into new areas. On the seafront in Lowestoft, feeding the seagulls may seem like a good idea, but one household now has them breeding on its roof and dive-bombing householders as they leave home. Thirdly, it is possible that the encroachment of traditional natural breeding habitats may have forced seagulls to look for alternative nesting-places. Indeed, off Waveney Drive, the presence of a now empty timber processing factory, with many thousands of square feet of roof, has provided an ideal breeding-ground.

[Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes powerful points about fisheries and so forth. In Brighton and Hove, we quite like seagulls. Indeed, their image adorns our wonderful new stadium. In relation to points made earlier about bins and destruction, we have changed some of the collection methods so that there is less destruction and less mess. In large numbers gulls can cause distress, but does my hon. Friend agree that a change in our behaviour can often alleviate the problem, and that is better than simply removing the seagulls?

[Peter Aldous]

I agree with that point, too. We have to look at ourselves as people as well as considering other forms of control.

In looking for solutions, there is no easy answer and no silver bullet. There is a need for more research so that we can obtain a better understanding of the ecology, biology and migrating habits of herring and black-headed gulls. We need a range of preventive measures. Where the problem is acute, there may be a need to consider additional means of controlling the gull population. I would be interested to know if any research has been carried out to find out what happens in other countries. Gull colonies can be very mobile. They move over a wide area stretching from the Atlantic coast in Portugal to Scandinavia and across to Siberia. By all accounts, the problem is not as acute in Norway and Sweden. We need to know why this is the case.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I add my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. The menace also afflicts the people of Barrow and Furness up in Cumbria. On preventive measures, has the hon. Gentleman given serious consideration to whether gull contraceptives could be an effective way of limiting the burgeoning population in urban areas?

[Peter Aldous]

If the hon. Gentleman means by gull contraception something that deals with the eggs, I have considered that. If he has other proposals, it would be interesting to hear further details.

A variety of preventive measures is necessary, including regular litter-picking and road cleaning, the provision of gull-proof bins that are emptied regularly and discouraging the feeding of gulls—in some towns fines are being imposed. There is also a need, as we heard earlier, to reduce the amount of food waste and organic matter that goes to landfill sites. Commercial buildings that may be suitable for nesting and roosting should be proofed. When sites are redeveloped, preventive measures should be incorporated in redevelopment plans.

The wholesale culling of gulls is not an option and I do not advocate it. Quite apart from the logistics and questionable ethics, the European population of herring gulls is very mobile, and minor gains achieved by removing a local population will invariably be cancelled out by natural migration.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has done well to secure this debate and he is making an excellent speech. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) is right to point out that it is not about wide-scale culling of gulls, but about individual responsibility when people discard their rubbish. In spite of that, particularly in seaside towns such as Lowestoft, Brighton and Hove, which have active night-time economies, people will still discard their rubbish in antisocial ways. No matter how much we like or dislike it, there is an onus on councils to address that problem and ensure that rubbish and litter are collected in a timely manner to avoid the problems we are talking about.

[Peter Aldous]

I thank my hon. Friend for those observations. I agree that that is one of the ways forward that we should consider.

To address the very worst problems, where people’s lives are being made a misery, consideration should be given to changing the existing licensing controls in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 to allow owners of large sites where significant numbers of birds are causing, or are likely to cause, a legal nuisance, to apply for a licence to take measures to prevent or deter the colonisation of land in their occupational control. At present, someone cannot apply for a licence to deal with a nuisance. They can apply for a licence to prevent serious damage to agriculture, to preserve public health or air safety and to conserve other birds. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether adding nuisance to that list is something that Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has considered or will consider.

Consideration also needs to be given to legislation allowing local authorities to require land owners to take preventive or remedial action to deal with actual or likely noise, smell or other nuisance caused by gulls colonising land or structures in urban areas. The problem is not easy to solve. Indeed, there might be a temptation to put it to one side in the “too difficult” category, but that would be wrong. As we have heard, many thousands of people from all around the country are being affected, and we owe it to them to come up with a range of measures to make their lives more tolerable.

16:57

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing this debate. I apologise on behalf of my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for the natural environment and fisheries. He would normally reply to this debate, but he is otherwise engaged. I am happy to stand in for him, especially as I was born and brought up in a seaside town lower down the Suffolk coast than Lowestoft, so I am familiar with the raucous cries of gulls.

I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) because gulls are a major feature of seaside towns. As always, it is an issue of balance and getting the populations right. I recognise that high densities in urban or coastal areas can cause serious problems for the people who live and work there. Sensible and proportionate measures need to be taken to mitigate those problems.. A range of measures are already available, including, where necessary, lethal control and the destruction of nests and eggs. Those measures are regularly employed across the country to manage our urban gulls.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney mentioned the problems in Beccles. I understand that those problems were managed at least in part by the removal of nests and by deterring the gulls, and that Natural England has worked with local residents to find ways of managing the gulls that have caused problems.

Before we consider management, we must look at the conservation status of gulls. They are wild birds to which we offer protection, and our obligation under the EU birds directive to conserve the wild bird population is fulfilled in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.

UK breeding populations of herring gulls have declined by 72% since 1969, and winter populations by about 50% over the past 25 years. As a result, the herring gull is now a biodiversity action plan priority species, and has been red-listed as a bird of conservation concern—the answer to my hon. Friend’s point about nuisance can probably be found in those statistics. Other gull species, including the great black-backed gull and—perhaps more importantly—the lesser black-backed gull, have also seen a decline in population, and although we sometimes see large numbers of gulls in certain areas, we may be forgiven for not realising that their conservation status may be under threat nationally. Although the population of some gull species has risen in urban areas, there has been a dramatic decline in the number of gulls found in their natural habitat.

I recognise the genuine concerns of my hon. Friend and other colleagues about gulls in their constituencies. Although the Wildlife and Countryside Act provides protection for all birds, it allows people to apply to Natural England for a licence to control problem bird species if there are no other satisfactory solutions—he saved me from having to read out the list of reasons that people can use to apply for such a licence. That licence would be granted on an individual basis, but some issues are covered under a general licence provided by Natural England that is available to anybody in the country and for which one does not need to apply—in theory, people are supposed to download information from the internet, but in reality culling is allowed under certain circumstances on the basis of the problems described by my hon. Friend. If someone believes that that general licence has been used for a different reason, the onus is on them to prosecute the case. That has happened in the past because these matters are not always easy; for example, if someone acts simply because they do not like gulls, they will clearly be breaching the terms of the general licence and be open to prosecution.

The general licence allows for the lethal control of the lesser black-backed gull where there is need to preserve public health and safety, or to prevent serious damage or the spread of disease. Many of the issues raised by my hon. Friend fall under those headings. Herring gulls have a more threatened status, but under the same general licences it is possible for an authorised person to remove and destroy their nests and eggs— I understand that that was one measure taken in Beccles. Licensed controls will therefore be necessary in some circumstances and, particularly in the breeding season, the removal of eggs and their replacement with dummy eggs—obviously under licence—can reduce the urban gull population if done for a long period. In the short term, such actions also reduce the likelihood of attacks from gulls.

Although licensed controls exist, they should not automatically be the first port of call and we should look at other measures to manage problems such as those to which my hon. Friend referred. There is no doubt that food supply is a major factor because gulls tend to increase in number and cause problems when there is a readily available source of food, especially if that combines with suitable habitats such as timber sheds.

The licensed control of gulls can prove effective in the short term, but we must look at the issue more widely. Access to food is the single most important factor controlling the gull population, and if food is denied they will go elsewhere and the problem may be resolved without recourse to other measures. It is a matter for individuals and local authorities, and I urge all local authorities to address the problem by using gull-proof methods of waste disposal such as rubbish sacks or—probably better—bins, and by reducing access to local landfill sites. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) suggested closing tips, but that would simply shuffle the problem elsewhere. Although the Government eventually intend to phase out landfill sites altogether, proven methods of deterring gulls without having to close a site and inconvenience constituents include the use of fireworks, visual deterrents, netting in some circumstances, and birds of prey. There is no single solution, but some methods have been proven to work.

Local authorities—indeed, all of us—should try to avoid spilling foodstuffs or leaving material around, keep food storage areas secure and bird-proof and ensure that disposal and waste facilities are kept clean and tidy. They should also try to stop people feeding the birds. The use of deterrents on our buildings is familiar to all of us in the Chamber because we live surrounded by them. In London the problem is pigeons, but proofing buildings with netting, metal spikes and so on could also be a way to address the problems caused by gulls. The fundamental answer to the concerns raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney, and many others, is that eliminating those things that attract gulls will reduce the problem. In other words, we should get rid of their feed and prevent them from using the facilities and buildings that they see as a habitat or nesting area.

In September, the Minister with responsibility for the natural environment met my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster), who has taken a great interest in this subject, and they discussed the merits of further research into the behaviour and ecology of urban gulls. Research, both completed and ongoing, has been carried out into managing urban gulls, and the Food and Environment Research Agency has investigated the movements of urban gulls, focusing on their movements between urban centres and landfill sites. It has also undertaken work funded by the Landfill Communities Fund to develop practical guidelines about deterring gulls from landfill sites. Those guidelines are in use by the Environment Agency. Studies funded by airport interests and water utility companies have examined methods to deter gulls from roosting in those areas, and such methods have been properly applied.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney referred to reservoirs. That is a crucial issue, but one to which all measures that I have referred to can be applied. In addition, I am advised that hand-held laser torches— I think it says laser, although it could be taser; I am reading my notes out because I have difficulty believing this—have been used at reservoirs with some success. I will leave my hon. Friend to work out exactly how.

A PhD study is examining the use of egg control to limit local breeding production in gulls. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), who referred to contraception, is not in his place, but hon. Members will be aware of the idea of using contraception to constrain populations of all sorts of wild species. In some places, that is used; in others, it is being researched. I do not know of any research relating to gulls, but clearly it is an interesting point and perhaps we should consider it. That said, I assume that the only way to administer the contraception would be in feed and we do not really want to feed the birds—that would be a double-edged sword.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney understands that there is a range of existing tools that can be used to manage gulls. Where there are issues of public health and safety, methods such as the removal of nests or eggs or of the gulls themselves—the lethal control of gulls—may be relevant.

At the meeting with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath, the Minister undertook to consider whether there was merit in taking forward more research on urban gulls, and we are examining that now. We can consider further research to help us to develop a greater understanding of urban gull behaviour, but we want to ensure that any such work delivers practical solutions.

In the meantime, I repeat that it is, as several hon. Members have said, for us as individuals and particularly for local authorities to use the quite considerable range of tools available at the moment to tackle the conflicts to which my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney so eloquently referred. He has used the opportunity afforded by Westminster Hall to raise genuine local concerns. Clearly, the problem cannot be dealt with in a few days. It requires concerted action by the community and by local authorities, working together over a sustained period, to take away all the things that attracted the birds in the first place. That is the bottom line, and we need to make concerted efforts to do it.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the issue and, quite properly, raising constituency concerns, and for allowing me to give the Government’s opinion. We have heard from other hon. Members, so clearly the issue is not unique to Lowestoft. I think that all of us have in some way witnessed the problems. I hope very much that what I have said is helpful to him and to his constituents and that sooner or later they will be able to sleep at night.

[Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair)]

Congratulations to the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), to the Minister and to all the other hon. Members who have participated in what has been a most informative debate.

Question put and agreed to.

17:10

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

Wednesday 26 October 2011

Environment Council

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and I represented the UK at the Environment Council in Luxembourg on 10 October. Stewart Stevenson, Scottish Minister for Environment and Climate Change, also joined the delegation.

Following lengthy debate, the Council adopted conclusions on preparations for the 17th session of the conference of the parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and the seventh session of the meeting of the parties to the Kyoto protocol in Durban. The text signals the EU’s continued openness to a second commitment period of the Kyoto protocol as part of a transition to a wider legally binding framework, and sets out the EU’s negotiating position on the range of other issues in the negotiations.

Ministers also adopted conclusions setting out the EU’s high-level position ahead of the Rio plus 20 conference next year. These send a clear political signal that the EU wants the conference to be a success. I emphasised the need for Ministers to focus on the EU’s strategic objectives for Rio plus 20 and the need for the conference to produce concrete outcomes in order to move us towards a genuine “green economy”.

Recently I attended the Delhi ministerial meeting on Rio plus 20. There was broad consensus that delegations have little appetite for simply agreeing a long-winded communiqué at Rio—they want action and implementation. The main outcomes of the Delhi meeting were: widespread agreement on the need for specific measures to make the transition to a greener global economy; recognition of the strong links between climate change, biodiversity and poverty reduction, and their importance for growth; agreement on the need to strengthen international environmental governance; and considerable interest in the Colombian proposal for sustainable development goals. Food security and sustainable agriculture, energy security and energy access, and resource efficiency were all identified as key themes for the Rio plus 20 summit.

The Environment Council also adopted conclusions on the review of the sixth environment action programme (EAP) and looking forward to the seventh. In this context, the Commission presented its road map towards a resource-efficient Europe, making it clear that they saw this as a comprehensive issue, covering much of the Commission’s work on environment, climate and energy. Both issues were discussed by Ministers over lunch, with several Ministers emphasising the need to focus on implementation of existing legislation rather than new initiatives in developing a future framework.

The Council adopted conclusions and a Council decision setting out the position of the EU and its member states ahead of the 10th meeting of the conference of the parties to the Basel convention on the control of trans-boundary movements of hazardous wastes and their disposal which will, among other things, discuss the mechanism for entry into force of the “ban amendment”.

The Aviation Emissions Trading Scheme was discussed under other business: the Commission encouraged member states to defend vigorously the legislation and counter some of the misunderstanding evident among others. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change agreed with their approach and reiterated the UK’s full support for the directive.

General Affairs Council

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I attended an extraordinary meeting of the General Affairs Council (GAC) on 22 October in Brussels.

The GAC was chaired by the Polish EU presidency (Mikolaj Dowgielewicz, State Secretary for European Affairs). A draft record of the meeting can be found at:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/EN/genaff/125491.pdf

Ministers reviewed preparations for the October European Council, the outcome of which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister reported to Parliament on 24 October.

Additionally, Ministers agreed new general arrangements for the delivery of EU statements in multilateral organisations. The document setting out these arrangements can be found at:

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/11/st15/st15901.en11.pdf

I have written to the chairs of the Scrutiny and Select Committees to provide further detail on this agreement. I have placed in the Libraries of both Houses copies of the general arrangements and the text of a UK statement for the minute.

I will also continue to update Parliament on General Affairs Councils.

Council of Europe (UK Chairmanship)

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

On 7 November, the UK takes over from Ukraine the chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. The chairmanship is a rare opportunity for the UK to play a leading role in the vital work of the Council of Europe in promoting rights, democracy and rule of law across the continent.

The Council of Europe is dedicated to the protection and promotion of human rights, the rule of law and democracy across 47 countries and 800 million citizens. The UK was a founder member in 1949, and the first country to ratify the European convention on human rights (ECHR), the Council of Europe’s best-known instrument, two years later. The ECHR was developed in post-war Europe to try to offer people basic protections from tyranny—such as the right to life, freedom from torture and freedom of speech. These rights are still fundamentally important today.

Yesterday I met Thorbjørn Jagland, Secretary-General of the Council of Europe, to discuss the UK’s chairmanship priorities. I am pleased to say that he supports fully our proposals. Each incoming chairmanship issues a priorities document shortly before their tenure begins. I have now done so and have placed a copy in the Library of the House.

The overarching theme of our chairmanship will be the protection and promotion of human rights. The Government have repeatedly made it clear that human rights are central to their foreign policy. We aim to be an example of a society that upholds human rights and democracy, and we are committed to strengthening the rules-based international system.

First and foremost, we will drive forwards the ongoing programme of reform of the European Court of Human Rights. The Court is an essential part of the system for protecting human rights across Europe. But it is struggling with its huge, growing backlog of applications—now over 155,000. At times it has been too ready to substitute its own judgment for that of national courts and Parliaments. This situation undermines the Court’s authority and effectiveness.

Concrete measures to improve the Court’s efficiency are urgently required. Moreover, it should be focusing on areas where the convention is not being properly applied or there is a need at European level for authoritative guidance on the correct interpretation of the convention. Where member states are applying the convention effectively, the Court should intervene less.

With the joint leadership of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice, under our chairmanship we will seek agreement to a package of reforms which would: help deal with the Court’s backlog; support better implementation of the convention at national level; introduce new rules or procedures to help ensure that the Court plays a subsidiary role where member states are fulfilling their obligations under the convention; and help to ensure the best possible procedures for selecting judges to the Court and promote consistency of judgments.

Reform requires the agreement of all 47 member states. We will accord the highest political priority to securing consensus to the necessary reforms by means of a political declaration at the end of our chairmanship. This declaration will set out the agreements we have reached on the reforms to be implemented, including—where necessary—by amendments to the procedural sections of the convention.

In addition, I have assured the Secretary-General that the UK will actively support his programme of reforms of the Council of Europe. We will work towards implementation of measures which will help to deliver more focused, streamlined and effective organisation and a more efficient budget.

The UK chairmanship will also give priority to a range of initiatives where we believe the Council of Europe can help to advance the UK’s foreign policy objectives:

we will promote an open internet, not only in terms of access and content but also freedom of expression. This is an important policy priority for the UK and one of the issues being addressed at the cyber conference being hosted in London by the Foreign Secretary on 1 November. We will support the adoption of the draft Council of Europe strategy on internet governance, and the implementation of the principles it has adopted to uphold freedom of expression on the internet, to ensure that all member states live up to their international obligations in this area;

we will work to combat discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity across Europe. The Government are committed to using their relationship with other countries to push for unequivocal support for the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, including advocating for changes to discriminatory practices and laws that criminalise homosexuality in other countries. The Council of Europe has adopted recommendations on this issue and conducted a study on the situation in member states. We will work with the secretariat and our partners in the Committee of Ministers to improve all member states’ performance in this area;

we will work towards a more effective and efficient role for the Council of Europe in supporting local and regional democracy. The Council of Europe has a significant programme of activities in this area, including monitoring and sharing of expertise, which the UK supports but wants to see streamlined and more carefully targeted;

we will support the strengthening of the rule of law in the member states. We will work towards practical recommendations in this area, in co-operation with our partners in the Committee of Ministers, the secretariat and the Council of Europe’s advisory body on constitutional matters the European Commission for Democracy through Law (the Venice Commission).

UNSCR 1325: Women, Peace and Security

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)]

I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing an annual review of the UK Government National Action Plan on UNSCR 1325: Women, Peace and Security.

This Government published a revised national action plan (NAP) on UNSCR 1325: Women, Peace and Security on 25 November 2010 and the annual review focuses on the commitments that the Government have taken forward since that time.

We are grateful to the Associate Parliamentary Group on Women, Peace and Security (APG WPS) and the civil society umbrella organisation Gender Action on Peace and Security (GAPS) for the regular and ongoing consultations that take place about the NAP. Officials will attend a meeting with the associate parliamentary group and GAPS on 31 October to discuss this review.

This Government intend to produce a revised NAP at the start of 2012 taking into account the recommendations we receive from APG WPS and GAPS. A full evaluation of the NAP is scheduled to take place in 2013.

I have deposited a copy of the annual review in the Libraries of both Houses. It is also available on the FCO website at www.fco.gov.uk.

Justice and Home Affairs Council

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)]

The Justice and Home Affairs Council is due to be held on the 27 and 28 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice, the Scottish Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland and I will attend on behalf of the United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the following items will be discussed.

The Council will begin in Mixed Committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states). There will be an update on the Commission-led project to implement the central element of the second generation Schengen Information System (SIS II); the UK will continue to reiterate its support for the continuation of the current SIS II project.

Next the Commission will give an update on the roll-out of the central Visa Information System (VIS). The UK is not bound by the VIS regulation because it does not participate in the common visa element of the Schengen acquis.

The Commission will present and invite an exchange of views on whether member states can support the legislative instrument amending Regulation (EC) No. 1931/2006 as regards the inclusion of the Kaliningrad area and certain Polish administrative districts in the eligible border area. The UK is not bound by this regulation since it relates to that part of the Schengen agreement in which the UK does not participate.

There will be a presentation by the Commission on their communication on smart borders. The communication addresses options, implications and possible ways forward in developing both a European entry/exit system and a registered traveller programme (brought together under the heading of smart borders). The initiatives will rely on developing technologies to expedite border crossings for regular travellers while maintaining the security and the integrity of border controls. They aim to include technical infrastructure issues, data protection aspects and the costs incurred in developing and operating both systems, which are aimed at third-country nationals crossing the Schengen external borders. The UK is excluded from both the measures since it does not participate in the common visa element of the Schengen acquis.

There will also be the signature of the mobility partnership between the EU and Armenia by those member states who will participate in this partnership. The UK has no plans to participate and will not take part in the signing of the partnership.

The main Council will start with a state-of-play discussion on the progress of the dossiers forming the second phase of the Common European Asylum System (CEAS). This has been a regular item at recent JHA Councils as the deadline for agreeing the dossiers in 2012 approaches. The UK does not support a common asylum system involving further legislative harmonisation, but we do support practical action to secure effective asylum systems, including returns. While we do not believe that further legislation setting common standards is the way to achieve this, we will work with member states to make sure any new legislation is as practical as possible and can be implemented on the ground.

There will be state-of-play discussions on two directives presented by the presidency. The first concerns a single application procedure for a single permit for non-EU member nationals to reside and work in a member state and on a common set of rights for non-EU member workers legally residing in a member state. The second deals with minimum standards for the qualification and status of third-country nationals or stateless persons as beneficiaries of international protection and the content of the protection granted. Both of these directives have reached agreement in principle within the Council; however, there is an outstanding issue of correlation tables that needs to be resolved with the European Parliament. The UK has not opted in to either of these instruments.

There will be a progress report on Greece’s national action plan on asylum reform and migration management. The UK will take the opportunity to acknowledge the improvements that have taken place while putting pressure on Greece to step up the pace of reform and to tackle its unacceptable detention facilities for asylum seekers.

There will then be a presentation by the Commission and a first exchange of views on the Commission communication on the integration of third-country nationals, which was published on 20 July. There are no immediate legal or legislative implications; integration strategies are a matter of national competence and the communication acknowledges this. The communication is broadly in line with the UK’s views on integration: we welcome the emphasis on a flexible approach including action at local and national level, acquisition of language skills and recognition that integration is a two-way process (migrant and host country).

Over lunch we expect Ministers will discuss an Austrian-Hungarian joint paper on illegal migration and visa liberalisation, with a particular focus on the western Balkans. Discussion will also include illegal immigration via the southern Mediterranean, and in particular current developments in Libya and Tunisia, requested by Italy. The UK will raise the need to tackle abuse of free movement, including sham marriages.

The Commission will also present its communication “Towards a stronger European response to drugs” and there will be a discussion on the draft European pact against synthetic drugs. The presidency will look to agree the draft text of the pact. The UK welcomes the priority that the presidency has given to this important issue and approves of the draft text in the pact. The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA) will also present its 2011 annual report on the state of the drug problems in Europe.

There will be an orientation debate on options for a European Terrorist Finance Tracking System (TFTS) on the basis of a Commission communication which was published in July. This meets a commitment to the European Parliament to consider the feasibility of an EU system following the adoption last year of the EU-US Terrorist Finance Tracking Programme (TFTP). The Government’s view is that the necessity of an EU system has not yet been demonstrated. There are also important questions around legal base, operational requirements and costs that are yet to be adequately answered. As such the Government do not believe they can choose between any of the available options at this stage. The UK will make clear that no decision can be taken on a way forward without first seeing a full impact assessment of each of the options (including the option of maintaining the status quo). This assessment must address the questions about necessity of an EU system; about the technical, legal and operational issues involved; and about the likely high costs.

The Commission will be presenting its communication on co-operation in the area of the JHA within the eastern partnership (EaP). The communication sets out proposals on how to strengthen JHA co-operation with the EaP countries, and the UK endorses the pragmatic focus on the consolidation and streamlining of existing frameworks. Promoting EU engagement with the EaP remains a priority for the Polish presidency, and the UK recognises the importance of offering continued support to the EU’s neighbours. There has been broad support for the communication so far and a general consensus that new structures are not required. The presidency is expected to prepare draft Council conclusions after an exchange of views at the Council.

Finally, the presidency will make a presentation on the state of play of the negotiations for an EU-US data protection agreement. The Council agreed a negotiating mandate at the 2010 December Council.

The justice day will begin with the Commission presenting its newly published regulation on a EU common sales law. This issue was discussed in general terms at the informal JHA Council on 19 July and this will be an opportunity for the Commission to explain its proposed action. Over lunch there will be a further discussion of some aspects of sales law.

There will then be a discussion regarding the draft directive on the right of access to a lawyer in criminal proceedings and on the right to communicate upon arrest. This is the third proposal on the EU’s criminal procedural rights road map which sets minimum standards for the rights of the defence. This measure was presented at the September JHA Council when the UK informed the Council that it had not opted in to this directive.

Next, there will be an orientation debate on the draft directive on establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime. The UK has opted in to this draft directive.

The presidency will also provide a state-of-play update on the draft directive on combating the sexual abuse, sexual exploitation of children and child pornography. A general approach was reached on this proposal at the JHA Council in December 2010.

Finally, under non-legislative activities, there is an item regarding judicial training. A Commission communication was published in September and the Commission made a presentation at the last Council meeting. It is expected that the Council will be asked to agree the draft Council conclusions on the Commission’s communication.