Commons Chamber

Monday 31st March 2025

(began 6 months, 3 weeks ago)

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None Portrait Q6. What steps her Department is taking to tackle violence against shopworkers. (903502)
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There is protection forwarded to
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None Portrait Q9. What steps she is taking to help tackle rural crime. (903506)
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Question mine.
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None Portrait Q11. Whether she has received legal advice on the compatibility of recent changes to her Department’s guidance entitled Good character: caseworker guidance, updated on 10 February 2025, with the 1951 Refugee Convention. (903508)
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enable policing and 13,000 additional police officers and other high streets and communities up and
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None Portrait Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, if he will make a statement on HM Government’s response to the political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina
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The secular state for FCO affairs, if you make a statement on the government's response to the political situation in Bosnia. political situation in Bosnia.
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Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty MP, Minister of State (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour )
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Thank you, and can I think the right honourable lady for her question on this very important issue to the government and a member across the whole house. We strongly condemn succession list moves which seriously threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Bosnia full stop such actions are on constitutional and dangerous, including to those living in Republic of Srpska who he claims to protect. We are coveted to the peace agreement and secretaries which respects the production of the authorities of both entities and supports Bosnia as a sovereign and politically independent state.

On Wednesday, 36 at, the court of Bosnia found the present guilty in the first instance of refusing to implement decisions of the high representative in the UK is clear the high representatives jurisdiction is indisputable and the disregarding the independent decisions of the Bosnians to disarray undermines the rule of law. In response to the further, the assembly doesn't a number of unconstitutional laws and proposed new constitution in clear violation of the peace agreement. These moves represent a significant escalation in his succession as Pat and threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Bosnia as a state and as he celebrates those attacks on state comic increases the threat to international peace and security.

Bosnia has the institutions and mechanisms to respond to this crisis and we support all efforts by domestic actors to de-escalate the situation and take appropriate action. Last week, convened a call with my French counterpart, with other partners, the United States, European Union commenced to's, where we discussed our joint efforts to bolster our joint efforts to bolster And as a result, there has been a number of laws in clear violation of the peace agreement. These moves represent I threaten to the sovereign tourney of Bosnia as a government and state, and as he has these threats on the state, he increases to threaten the national security.

Bosnia of course has the internal mechanisms to respond to this crisis, and we support all acts by domestic actors to take
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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appropriate action. Last week I convened in court with my French counterparts and with the united states, Germany, plus the European Union's where we discussed joint Union's where we discussed joint unit efforts, and last week I spoke unit efforts, and last week I spoke with the high representative and spoke with a Bosnian Minister reaffirming UK governments for reaffirming UK governments for support for the integrity and sovereignty of Bosnia had Governor --head. We reiterated that message --head. We reiterated that message on 28 March at our direction, and we welcome the EU peacemaking mission to activate their reserve forces to provide reassurance to communities most affected by rising tensions.

In conclusion Madame Speaker, these actions do not serve the people of Bosnia and head of Governor, including those who reside in Hersey

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Galva Neah --Herzsegovina. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, and I think the Minister for his remarks. The attempt to undermine remarks. The attempt to undermine Bosnia's integrity, and the peace agreement are deeply troubling. Over agreement are deeply troubling. Over many years the UK has been a revival many years the UK has been a revival support of Bosnia and their journey, and a trusted promoter when it comes to the security of the western Balkans. We were proud and government to appoint peach, whose work was incredibly solid and robust ..

And we maintain the government has... And we look forward to speaking with her tail, and practical terms what is the UK doing both to support Bosnia and the head of Governor to stay on the course and maintain stability? And to defend and promote freedom and democracy in the region? For the same reasons that Ministers already outlined, this is pivotable to the security of the region. How does he envision the security can be improved? In regards to strengthening ties with NATO and Bosnia and heads of Governor, what is his relation to you for and you for its recent days, what is the discussion that the lead Master had with leaders across the West Balkans? Including on the very concerning actions of the republics
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Catherine West Portrait Catherine West MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Hornsey and Friern Barnet, Labour)
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Thank you very much to police pickup. The heartbreaking scenes from Myanmar and Thailand over the weekend have shocked the world. I'm sure I speak for those across the House in expressing our sincere condolences to all those affected by this terrible tragedy. This devastating event only added to the plight of people who are already facing extreme vulnerability and hardship. Over 3000 people have died and this is likely to increase significantly in the days ahead. I want to take this opportunity to thank all of the first responders in Myanmar as well as the humanitarian and civil society partners.

Working tirelessly in extreme difficult conditions to assess the scale of destruction and providing life- saving support. I also want to put on record from this House are thanks

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, the heart breaking scenes from my the heart breaking scenes from my unmarked and Thailand over the weekend have shocked the --Myanmar. World I express my sincerest condolences for all those affected condolences for all those affected by this tragedy! The plight of people Myanmar in already fleecing people Myanmar in already fleecing extreme hardship and vulnerability, the number of deaths will increase the number of deaths will increase in the days ahead. I want to thank those in the civil society as partners, working tirelessly in very difficult decisions to assess the scale of destruction and provide lifesaving support.

I want to thank our team in Yangon. I want to thank the UK for their support of the people of Myanmar as they experience more hardship. There is built in more hardship. There is built in contingency funding Myanmar, in and on Friday there was an announcement of an additional 10 million pounds of support. This will be deployed to those already immobilised providing humanitarian response on the ground due to the conflict. It will bolster their efforts, especially in the areas hardest hit by the earthquake, where they will provide those most vulnerable with food, water, medicine, and shelter regardless of their location.

I want to ensure the House that these funds will not be used to benefit the current Myanmar military regime, instead it will be directed to partners who we have a trusted and long-standing relationship with, with a strong record in delivering assistance in the increasingly difficult area of Myanmar. Including those who are out of control of the military regime, we are also supporting military response through other global funds that we consistently rank as one of the top. Funders of the year for example, from the American emergency response fund, $2 million from the access to fund fund, and this will focus on first aid and trauma care for the affected population.

In conclusion, our combined support the measures the UK's continued
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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commitment for supporting the people Myanmar. Of we have seen continued airstrikes, and such attacks have airstrikes, and such attacks have had devastating effects on communities! We condemn all attacks that affect infrastructure including that affect infrastructure including schools and hospitals. We call on schools and hospitals. We call on all parties in the conflict to give emergency responders and mentoring partners full, unhindered access to partners full, unhindered access to those affected! And we also recognise that the earthquakes had significant impact in Thailand, and we express our deepest condolences for Thailand and for those who have lost loved ones.

We have support for British nationals who have been affected, and I report to the House that in Bangkok we continue to function as normal. We stand with tenant and the children time -- Thailand in this challenging time.

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As the Minister has rightly said, the effects of this terrible the effects of this terrible earthquake affecting Myanmar, Thailand and the wider region, it is Thailand and the wider region, it is a tragedy that 3,000 people have been confirmed dead and many are been confirmed dead and many are injured, and many await news of their loved ones. The Minister their loved ones. The Minister expresses condolences to those expresses condolences to those affected. Damages of people digging through rubble are deeply moving! We deeply pray more survivors are found, and that effective recovery operations can take place as quickly as possible.

We understand the master has committed a 10 million pound package Myanmar for in light of this earthquake, and she has mentioned some of the partners already. Can she give any details of the 8 partners the UK is dealing with? The Minister mentioned this package will provide food, water, medicine and shelter quite rightly. Can she give details about the quantities of foods and medicines being provided into they are provided by? The statement also refers to an increase of a contingency fund for those partners already in the country.

Can Mr. Confirm how much that is worth? This is in addition to the 10 million pounds, and what will this be used for? Can she explain how multi- fondle funding can be used in response to this earthquake? And for mitigating the effects of the aftershocks? They have Artie said Myanmar that is controlled by the military, how can you ensure that efforts at de-escalation can shield the population for military action based on reports that we have already heard that she mentioned around Myanmar's military striking civilian areas despite civilians need for government relief.

How does the government of Britain intend to respond? Will the fallout of the earthquake affect the humanitarian situation for refugees? And what specific assessment has been made of their needs in light of this terrible strategy? Will any of the 10 million that has been announced before support of the hand God? Or
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Catherine West Portrait Catherine West MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Hornsey and Friern Barnet, Labour)
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will there be an adaptation in support of the Rohingya? Will there be any for Thailand? Or is there a separate package of support for separate package of support for Thailand? It will be helpful for the House to understand what formal assistance has been received by any assistance has been received by any countries affected by the earthquake and the UK's official response, as and the UK's official response, as well as any discussions that you had well as any discussions that you had with deputies.

Madam Speaker, we will also look to the UK government for support of British nationals that are affected in the region, that is crucial! We know time not is a popular holiday destination and she mentioned already some of the consulate assistance that is taking place in particular. And finally, we have seen very active on social media the government is insured that messaging is active, but can you support any consulate teams support that Britain is able to provide the region?

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I think my honourable lady for her shared concern about this earthquake and her many points of detail --thank. Specifically on the detail --thank. Specifically on the 10 million pounds, that is on top of the current allocation, and Myanmar the current allocation, and Myanmar is part of the region that will receive the largest old DA funding there, so this is an extra 10 there, so this is an extra 10 million pounds --ODA. The aftershocks that she mentioned my aftershocks that she mentioned my currently we are waiting on news, being it has been three we are waiting on news, being it has been 3 1/2 days since the initial earthquake, but the assessment has been given the shallow nature of it, Bangkok is the worst that we have heard my father I will hear more from her in relation to.

That in regards to safeguarding, she makes a point that it would be very easy for the military regime to divert the aid away from the front lines, and that is where the expense of our excellent staff on the ground play such an important role! Because we have such tried and tested methods of working through grassroots organisations to provide aid into the centre Myanmar, of into the region Madalay of and around that so that way we do not need to worry about aid being diverted into the military.

She has also asked about Rohingya, and that will be looked at separately, we will work on that later in the year to help the Rohingya. Is my understanding that the Rohingya will hopefully be able to return to their part of the Myanmar. But right now the government is focused on assisting the centre of Myanmar. But I can assist her we have something to write Rohingya. About in regards to the package for Thailand, currently the consular team has no extra regards in terms of people coming over the border, that are consulate team is working as usual and our excellent Ambassador there has given us reassurances that the team in
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Catherine West Portrait Catherine West MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Hornsey and Friern Barnet, Labour)
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ability to respond to disasters and provide the kind of long-term, consistent support that rebuilding consistent support that rebuilding Myanmar will require. Can you Myanmar will require. Can you confirm that this is a priority? For opposition and controlled areas come aid workers have been attacks, and now we hear reports that aid workers now we hear reports that aid workers responding to the earthquake crisis responding to the earthquake crisis are faced with interference. So how can we ensure that aid is getting through? And that it is free from oppression? And in response to what the UN is calling human rights violations, Myanmar needs support in the aftermath of this tragedy, and as the world spotlight turns to it, I urge the government to take this opportunity to use every lead it can

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to push for the end of conflict and for the future of democracy! Thank you very much med I'm

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Thank you very much med I'm Deputy Speaker. For a question in terms of how much was spent, it is terms of how much was spent, it is still allocated in the 48 hours so we are building on a firm base we already have, which has been a very already have, which has been a very already have, which has been a very solid donor country. We have been a donor country to Myanmar for many years, and therefore we are on building on a solid base.

She asked about the question for UK cuts in response to the earthquake, and we know that the 10 million extra, which the Foreign Secretary announced my course is on top of the original allocations -- secretary announced, is of course on top of announced, is of course on top of announced, is of course on top of
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Jim McMahon Portrait Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )
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Thank you. With Birmingham City Council and on issues affecting the waste service. This government was elected on a manifesto order that fixed the foundations of local government. Public rightly expects and deserves well-functioning local councils. We provide the statutory services that residents rely on. Local councils must be fit, legal and decent. The commissioners have been working with them for the last 18 months to support the council and its recovery, and today, I am publishing the latest report on that journey.

This land is at a key difficulty for Birmingham as the dispute in the waste service results in rubbish piling on the streets. Therefore, I will also take this opportunity to update the house on the status of that dispute. Now, on the report, council has taken steps forward on its journey, and it is working with commissioners constructively. It is made significant progress in addressing historically put pay issues and in fixing the foundation of governments. The leader and his group are taking difficult decisions to get the council back on track, and the commissioners have recognised his calm leadership through stormy waters.

The new managing director has brought a steady hand and is beginning to make permanent appointments which will contribute much needed Council has also achieved a break for -- breakthrough by achieving an agreement to end the ongoing saga. And is also set to implement a strategy for the Oracle IT system. These improvements are encouraging, but the challenges remain. In the short-term, commission oversight of provision will still be required to maintain momentum. There's a difficult road ahead on key aspects of the best value regime, on government and culture, financial management and service delivery.

Because substantial risks throughout the journey from reform to recovery, the journey from reform to recovery, and members will know there is a live interaction within waste services involving one of the three recognised trade unions in that area. The government will support the leader and his team directly and through the commissioners to move the council on from these historic issues. This includes an increase in core spending power of up to 9.8% or £131 million for 25/26, this included 39.3 million of the new one-off recovery grant.

That illustrates this government's commitment to correcting the unfairness in the funding system. We put in place a principle agreement for exceptional financial support totalling 1.24 billion. On the waste dispute, councils deliver over 800 vital services and they make a huge difference to millions of people across the country. But it's excepted that for many the most visible and universal service is a collection and the disposal of household waste. Members across the House will know that the current interaction the city has -- industrial actions it is causing misery and disruption to local people.

I know honourable members his constituents are affected will be acutely aware of the disruption. From the outset I want to be clear, the statutory intervention is led by commissioners and ministers cannot legally intervene in this industrial action. However I have been in regular contact with the leadership of the council throughout as they have sought to find a resolution which allows the reforms needed to build sustainable Council and which turns waste collection services being normally functioning in the way members would expect. This is causing public health risks to the city's most vulnerable and deprived residents, as a result I'm aware that Birmingham has today declared a major incident.

To give them the mechanisms to better manage the impact on local residents. I support that decision and I will back local leaders to bring the situation under control in the weeks to come. Well established arrangements foreign place for local areas to escalate issues where they need support in the covenant is monitoring the -- situation closely this is a local issue and it's right that is done by key public sector partners in Birmingham itself. If local leaders on the ground in Birmingham feel that tackling these issues goes beyond resources available to them and they were request national support then of course we stand ready to respond to any request.

This government will always back local leaders and give them the support they need, not swooping to criticise or take over from Whitehall. This government will not hesitate to give support and anyway the Birmingham leaders need. As Parliament would expect a meeting with the leadership of the council, the commissioners and other key local partners will be taking place to make sure we are doing everything we can to support and protect public health. It's in the interest of all parties and most importantly is for the benefit of Birmingham's residents that this industrial action is brought to a close in a meaningful and sustainable way as soon as possible.

We encourage all parties to redouble their efforts to get around the table and to find resolution. To do this any deal to end industrial action must maintain value for money and ensure fit for purpose waste collection services without creating or storing liabilities for the future. All parties recognise that Birmingham's waste partners are in urgent need of modernisation and transformation for many years so that any deal reached must not repeat the mistakes of the past. Practice in the waste service past.

Practice in the waste service have been one of the largest equal pay crisis in modern UK history. Resulting costs of over £1 billion to the residents of Birmingham. The situation simply cannot continue. I support the council on its journey to creating a sustainable fair and reliable waste service that residents in Birmingham deserve. We will support the council to resolve this historic issue to establish the leadership, governance and culture that will drive good quality public services for the people of that great city.

It can take its rightful place with confidence as one of our great UK cities. As the council moves to the next stage of intervention I will continue to work with the council, commissioners, and the wider sector to understand how we can best ensure that residents get what they need from the local council. I will monitor progress as I have done since the general action to ensure that a continuous improvement led by the council can be secured. Sure that the whole house would expect that the commission arrangements will need to remain in place while the situation in Birmingham is so fragile.

The commissioners have a vital role to play in supporting Birmingham's transformation working hand in glove with local leaders. The government remains committed to perking -- working genuine partnership the city and the council and I continue to encourage the council to strengthen its partnerships with regional stakeholders including in the West Midlands Combined Authority to support economic growth and financial sustainability. We keen to promote growth and regeneration opportunities for Birmingham and we are confident there is a council continues to work to fix the basics were making progress against the milestones, local stakeholders will be encouraged to work in partnership with the council to deliver clear vision for the future.

I look forward to continuing dialogue with the commissioners, council, regional partnerships including the partner on opportunities for growth in the region, partnership approach were a clear vision will increase Birmingham's capacity to achieve sustainable growth going forward. The people of Birmingham deserve a well-run, countable and financially stable council with good public services not least of all in the waste collection service. I'm encouraged by the council's leadership and commitment to the same and I look forward to the council demonstrating ownership of its recovery and evidence that it can deliver on the lasting improvements required.

I will deposit in the House library copies of the commission's report which is also being published today on gov.uk. gov.uk.
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Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake MP (Thirsk and Malton, Conservative)
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I thank the Minister for advance eye to the statement full stop I'm sure the fact I table the Urgent Question on this inside of my honourable friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield in the fact that he's come to the House today said nothing on this matter for the last 20 days since it's been a live issue. It is shameful, national embarrassment of our nation's great cities, our second city finds itself in such a bleak situation. As the Minister admits in a statement this is a problem of the council's own making, it came as a result of the flawed deal back in 2017 with Unite that then led to the legal action over equal pay.

But it is the people who pay the price. Mountains of rubbish blighting the streets of Birmingham for more than 20 days and no end in sight to a dispute, but of course their union paymasters Unite. Almost every area is plagued by overflowing bins, rats the size of cats, and opportunistic flight appears exploiting the chaos to turn open spaces into dumping grounds. This is the reality of Labour in local government. From Edgbaston to Sutton Coldfield, Yardley Turlington, Boxall Heath to sparkle, the piles of waste grow even higher.

This is a public health emergency as the Member for Edgbaston has herself conceded. Even the Labour mayor of the West Midlands has said he is fed up with the waste pile up in the streets being filthy. This is why we are calling for a Cobra led response stop this issue demands a coordinated effort across local and national government, harnessing the expertise of public health officials, Civil Contingencies Act, professionals and emergency services. We call on the government to cut councillors allowances for the Cabinet members got Birmingham into this mess in the first place, and urge the government to appoint binmen from the private sector to clear up Labour's mess.

Where are the MPs today, I can see one on the bench opposite, in Birmingham have been campaigning for an airport, two of 10. What they have been campaigning for an airport in Kashmir we are proposing workable solutions. Can I turn to the specifics of the Minister's statement. He talks about the calm leadership from councillor Cotton. What local residents needs is action not buzzwords. Action from the local leadership and from central government. He says that ministers cannot legally intervene in this industrial action, is he honestly saying he has no influence with the union involved, Unite? Unite to are complicit in holding the hitting -- city to hostage, contributing £10,000 of the deputy prime ministers election war chest? She is now surely duty-bound to pick up the phone and speak truth to the real power behind the Labour throne, the unions.

Incredibly Unite are calling on central government to make hundreds of millions of pounds available to the council rather than having to live with its own means. Is that something the Minister is considering? He talks about an increase in core spending power for the council of 9.8%, £131 million for the forthcoming year full stop can he confirm to the House that a significant part of this is being raised by means of a council tax increase of 7.8% and that this is a clear breach of the prime ministers pledged to freeze council tax this year? Can I pay tribute to councillor Bobby Alden and the Birmingham conservatives who alongside my right honourable friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield have been doggedly holding the council's incompetent leadership to account.

They have clear solutions to this crisis, now that Birmingham has today declared a major incident leading to the availability of new mechanisms, can he confirm that he will meet with them to make sure these are considered? I find it extraordinary he says in his statement that Birmingham Council has not yet requested national support. Will he not insist that it does so immediately? He also says that he will be meeting with local leaders and commissioners, given that this crisis has been ongoing for 20 days and counting.

Why has he not already met with those local leaders and when will he be doing so, will it be this very week? so, will it be this very week?
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Jim McMahon Portrait Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )
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Well. To hear that response, you would think that the party opposite hadn't been in government for 14 years and been in office when Birmingham had to come for financial Birmingham had to come for financial support. But Birmingham wasn't alone was it? It was a number of councils like dominoes falling, because of the chronic underfunding by the previous government. They talk about Kashmir, left a cash crisis. That was the issue and it affected every council. Whether they were Labour, Conservative or LibDem, every single one of them were let down by the previous government.

They can't even look their own councils in the eye. Whether it's about reorganisation where local leaders much needed for the area, they are showing local leadership and being undermined by the National leadership. Honestly at local level there like lions being led by donkeys. But onto this point here, outside of the party political nonsense that has been deployed, surely we can all agree that we care about the people of Birmingham and we want to see this vital public service restored we all must agree surely that given the previous government intervention into Birmingham, that the journey of improvement is fragile.

Yes, improvements have been made, but we have to maintain course. They must also accept that one of the biggest barriers to settling the council and giving out long-term stability was the equal pay liabilities that were stored up. And so resolving this issue is critical, not just for the council itself, but also for the people of Birmingham. I can assure him that regular conversations have been taking place including a meeting a couple of weeks ago with the leader. There will be meeting again this week and we have said we will do what's needed to support the local council to achieve what it needs to achieve and to get this service back on track.

I'm sure he will agree with me that that is the right approach that local leaders show local leadership in the national government showed the support that is needed. He also bizarrely went towards council tax increases, the council tax increase in Birmingham last year under the previous government was higher than this year. Why? Because this government has a clear eye for looking after taxpayers and making sure that any increases are contained. But how do we do that? We didn't do that how the previous government would have done, just seeing what would happen.

This government provided nearly £14 million of new money for the recovery grant to Birmingham to make sure that they didn't have to pass on that increase local taxpayers, that is genuine partnership. We national government is working hand in glove. Isn't it time that the previous government accepted the failings from four its 14 years in office, that it accepts that the foundations of local government were left we could not stronger when they left office and will they now start putting the interests of the people putting the interests of the people of this country ahead of political of this country ahead of political
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None Portrait Consideration of Lords message: Consideration of Lords Message to the Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

of the day. Non-domestic rating, suppliers and private Schools Bill. Consideration of Lords Message.
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Jim McMahon Portrait Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )
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I beg to move that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1B. I'm grateful to the opportunity to consider the new amendments tabled in lieu of the previously disagreed once by this House. I would like to reiterate my thanks the Lord honourable members across both houses for their continued diligence and scrutiny of these measures. I set out previously this Bill makes provision to enable the introduction of permanent lower tax rates were retail, hospitality and labour -- leisure businesses from April 26, ending the uncertainty of the temporary RHL relief.

The relief stopgap measure creates uncertainty for businesses as well as a significant fiscal pressure on the government. So this government is committed to addressing that through the spell. This government faces a significant challenge that we must balance the books, so we can and should not make tax cuts without ensuring that those tax cuts are funded. Which is why the bill also makes provision to enable the introduction of a higher multiplier for properties with the rateable value at or above £500,000. Ensuring that the permanent tax cuts for RHL properties are sustainable funded from within the business rate system itself.

This bill also helps deliver on another of the governance missions set out in the manifesto breaking down barriers to opportunity. This bill will remove the eligibility for charitable rate relief on private schools that charities are in England. As I said before in this House the government believes in parental choice. But it is also determined to fill the aspiration of every parent get the best education for their child. To eliminate the barriers to opportunity we need to concentrate on the broader picture towards state sector where let's remember, over 90% of children are educated.

The revenue raised through the removal of charitable relief will help deliver on our commitment to education in young people. Help us to meet our overarching mission of breaking down barriers to opportunity for all. Amendments 1B and 7B seek to allow Treasury to exclude healthcare from the higher multiplier from regulations. Members 2B and 8B seek to allow the Treasury to exclude anchor stores from the higher multiplier regulations, these amendments are unnecessary as the powers they seek already exist in the bill.

Let me be clear, the powers within the bill already allow the government should it choose to exclude certain properties from the higher multiplier. This is not the intention of course as I set out, the government intention is for the higher multiplier to apply to all properties at or above the £500, £500,000 threshold to ensure that local multipliers can be adequately funded. As such I urge the House to reject the members because they are not required, and duplicate powers that only exist within the bill.

I now turn to address the amendment 13 B tabled by Lord Thurlow. Amendment 13 B would require the government to undertake a review on how the provisions within the act make the impact on businesses close to the £500,000 threshold. The amendment 13 B requires that this review be laid before Parliament within six months of the date on which the act is passed. Further and 13 B also sets out that this review must consider the merits of a separate use class associated multipliers for retail services, provided by fulfilment warehouses that do not have a material presence and local high streets.

We have considered too similar Lords of Mance previously and our position has not changed, the moment is unnecessary. The transformer in this rates work is underway recognising the cliff rates -- to fetch within the system and that they may act with a disincentive to expand. I reiterate, previously provided to the House. Government is orally looking at this precise issue, the second part of amendment 13 B would require the Government to undertake a review, this will examine the merits of creating separate use class and the business rates and associated multiplier for warehouses.

That cater for retailers without a material presence on the High Street. Again, as previously set out, the government is already exploring the objective through the existing projects mentioned before. The digitising prints in this rates project will allow us to Max property level data within the business level data held by HRC. This will improve the way in which we target business rates, therefore the government remains of the view for the reasons set out at the amendment is not required. I urge honourable members to disagree to this amendment.

The government is fully committed to transforming the business rate system, this is simply the first step of a wider of change for a system that is long overdue for reform. The Chancellor set out That the government will publish an interim report set out a clear direction of travel for reform. With further policy details to follow in the Autumn Budget as I previously said. Reform of the business rate system will be phased in over Parliament. Finally, amendment 15 B3 15 he seeks a mover measure to remove temporary rate relief on private schools.

When being made by private schools. When being made by Parliament in the spell. To one that will be made by the Secretary of State through regulation subject to the affirmative resolution procedure for that Statutory Instruments. A government is committed to delivering on manifesto commitments and part of that is removing the rate relief from private schools. To raise revenue and help deliver to the people and education including the state sector where, again as I said before, most children are educated.

The government view is that this is a matter for Parliament to decide which is why we have invited Parliament to do so through the spell. Therefore the amendments are unnecessary. For the reasons set out this government cannot accept these amendments and we ask the House to vote to disagree the

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amendments as stated. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords and there amendment 1B.
17:26
Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake MP (Thirsk and Malton, Conservative)
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amendment 1B. Can I thank noble Lord ships for diligent further consideration of the Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill 2025 and for the new amendments tabled to address the concerns in the legislation. These changes shine a spotlight on Labour's muddled priorities, exposing approach which punishes aspiration, squeezes businesses and increases the cost of living for consumers and the cost of doing business. This very week we will see the new job tax introduced business rate hikes, the Employment Rights Bill coming down the line which is of great concern to many private sector businesses, and for consumers this will see consequent higher prices, lower wages and also tomorrow's hike in council tax, energy prices, water bills, broadband and BBC licence fee.

I will address the four primary groups First turn to Lords amendments 1B and 7B which tackle the proposal to levy a higher multiplier on medical, dental and other healthcare settings. These amendments prudently protect all healthcare premises occupied or vacant from the higher multiplier addressing a glaring flaw in Labour spell. For too long we have cautioned against their detachment from practical governance and now it's undeniable, rather than targeting untaxed profits of internet giants has pledged, their heating costs onto hospitals and GP surgeries.

It's baffling that Labour's so-called reform of the rating system would burden healthcare at all. Let alone while they plan to hate national insurance on jobs tomorrow to fund the NHS. Only to claw it back today by taxing those same health services. Just yesterday, one second. Just yesterday this government placed a funnel of more cash into the NHS by taxing jobs through national insurance hikes, yet today they turn around and tax the NHS itself via business rates. It's a fiscal farce, a two-faced assault on healthcare that undermines their own rhetoric.

As my honourable friend noted in recent debates Labour's obsession with revenue grabs over sensible

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relief is choking the sectors we need most. I thank him for giving way. Does

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I thank him for giving way. Does he agree there does seem to be a he agree there does seem to be a disjointed approach with the Health Secretary asking for more to be done on a health basis within the community, whereas we should be asking anybody moving from a central asking anybody moving from a central location to the community to pay these additional taxes and rates?

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these additional taxes and rates? He is right there is no logic to the governance approach. They are giving with one hand and taking with the other and making those kind decisions ever more difficult. Next Lords amendment to be and 8B address the ratings regime for anchor stores on our beleaguered high streets. The John Lewis chief warned these words, that Labour's budget is a two-handed grab at retailers planning national insurance increase is a long-time refusal to reform business rates of they promise today.

Retailers face a £7 billion hits from these policies with consumers braced for higher prices as a result. These amendments exempt anchor stores, those vital engines of our town centres from the higher multiplier, a lifeline Labour seems determined to withhold. Unoccupied anchor stores as well would escape this punishing rates, preventing empty shopfronts from becoming permanent scars on our high streets. Setting the threshold for this higher multiplier at £500,000 is a blunt instrument as the Minister concedes. I can ensure the government this will have consequences for businesses that are not big tax giants.

This will hit large supermarkets, supermarket delivery and large department stores. Showing that Labour government has not thought this through. My colleagues on the side of the House have rightly decried Labour's neglect of retail and they are right. The Leader of the Opposition has rightly highlighted that Labour's rates multiplier fiasco is killing off the High Street while they dodge real reform. Businesses faced a double whammy, higher taxes and no certainty thanks to a government more interested in punishing aspiration than powering growth.

Labour's failings to shield these businesses betrays the shopkeepers, workers and the families who depend on thriving high streets not ghost towns Labour are putting both of these costs on retailers in the High Street and exempting anchor stores from the higher multiplier will help support Well occupied stores will mean that businesses have less of a strain on them when it comes to making decisions on what they are going to do with their premises. Supporting businesses are able to plan for the longer term which is something that we must consider in all pieces of we must consider in all pieces of legislation and property, and on this bill, it is shared by KPMG you describe plan to change the business rate system as set out in this bill and creating uncertainty for businesses that we will need to factor into forward planning.

We confront yet another symptom of Labour's ill-conceived assault on business. Picture this, a thriving firm, a premises valued at 14 £95,000. There is to invest in its future, perhaps a modest expansion. New equipment or desire to stay competitive. That tipped its value to just over £500,000 threshold and what is the reward under the spell? A staggering jump in business rates from roughly £175,000 to A staggering jump in business rates from roughly £175,000-£325,000, and they are doubling the tax burden overnight.

This is a trap, a overnight. This is a trap, a punitive cliff edge that mocks the idea of fairness was of the must be greater accountability for those which threatened to crash businesses and arbitrary thresholds. The law is absolutely right to demand a review by the Secretary of State to probe the real-world impact of these changes, especially on firms teetering near that mark. Businesses that employ our constituents, anchor communities and drive the economy. By mandating consultation with sector experts, this amendment ensures businesses on rates are rooted in evidence not ideology, offering Parliament a chance to course correct for more livelihoods are sacrificed to labour's reckless tax experiment.

The final law amendment relates to the most objectionable part of the bill. The levying of business rates on independent schools. Let me reiterate the view of this side of the house, education should never be taxed. Over the weekend, The Times published a number of alarming stories outlining the impact of VAT on school fees on families. It tells a story of Leanne, a self-employed accountant who works between 5 AM and midnight seven days a week to pay for the increase in costs to her disabled sons education that have come as a result of levying VAT on school fees which is exacerbated by the business rates on independent schools.

The same article highlights the study which has shown that one in five families who attended private school have remortgaged their home. One in eight have sold their home altogether. This is before business rates have been levied. As I have already highlighted before, this bill will also levy business rates on nursery schools and sports facilities on the site of a private school that is used for the general public. This measure is simply wrong, and I agree with the other place that the Statutory Instrument required to bring in these regulations should be voted on by both houses before the measures can be introduced.
17:34
Vikki Slade Portrait Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)
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Well, here we go again. Obviously, this is very similar to what we were talking about last week so I want to put on record my thanks again for pushing forward these amendments from the other place. We welcome the business rates and we look forward to far more substantial overboard system, but we are deeply, deeply concerned about the proposals of hospitals. The Lords Amendments seeks to exclude that this wasn't accepted. Both Paul and Dorset hospitals would be caught by the 5000 value, Bournemouth 3.3 million, while phase hospitals including great all, Royal Marsden and the oldest hospital would all be caught up.

The government has rightly been proud of the delivery of extra appointments, but to keep the bill risks real problems for local councils who may find themselves having to take difficult decisions to take the hit and not charged by the amount, so take away the discretion altogether, please remove these from the bill so that hospitals are not paying price. We welcome the shadow minister regarding those businesses on the cusp of the 500 threshold. The impact of flipping just over to the higher multiplier could be absolutely profound, and with so many businesses on the cusp of the National Insurance increases the impact of the employment rights Bill, this additional worry could see many businesses fail to invest in businesses for the future as they are concerned about the tipping over into the higher threshold.

I will keep it brief because I know where we are wrong this, that we also don't agree with the taxation of education and we continue to support The main reason we feel this rate is because we know that many parents of children with additional needs will choose the private sector because it is so difficult for them to get what they need in overcrowded schools that are falling apart at the seams, so we agree with the principle. The government has made a good start with a fundamental review with the business rates.

These amendments will demonstrate a government that is listening, and at the moment, a government listening to sensible

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amendments will be most welcome. And I thank government for bringing it forward because I have
17:38
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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to put on record that the Minister will not be surprised to know that this will not be meant in an aggressive way, but my constituents have a chance to express themselves through me in this chamber. I echo the concerns on the schools, I have some concerns, I have some concerns about how that will trickle down. The job of those institutions is to make sure hospitals can deliver care, that dental and medical care, that dental and medical schools can supply to give the next generation of those who look after us as we look forward, but my concern is in relation to the private schools bill, and I know it has been echoed because I have to say that I can't let this occasion go with the direction of Mme Deputy Speakers and other parties as well.

Members will be aware of this as an issue for the private bills, and I have spoken about this to put forward the argument for the schools in my constituency, for those schools whose parents scrimp and save to ensure that all the money they have will be for their child to have an education standard which they wish to see. Those are the people who have asked me to come here today and put that on record. The reason I persist in raising that issue, I truly do believe that some people will be further disadvantaged.

It will be the reality of the government, and for that reason because the tax considerations which does affect Northern Ireland, and that is why it is quite clear. What those parents want is the same as parent spoke to me that they want as well. I'm very proud member of the freedom of religious belief, and you have the freedom to view how your faith is working in that education, and that is the Lord's amendment the shadow minister referring to.

Those confident the faith will not be dismantled and that it was worth the financial burden of paying into the child's education, but this has been denied by the legislation moving forward. They all deserve to have the opportunity to educate the child the way they wish to pay handsomely for. I believe these proposals educate the belief and the option to homeschool is one where parents may not have considered things that now feel this is the only financial option for them.

These people may not feel qualified because of homeschooling, and believe there to be no other option as a simple cannot afford to pay the uplifted fees, and that is the burden that falls on parents. I fully believe that the Lords Amendments interferes with public revenue and affects the levy and the application of local revenues and comments do not offer any further reason, trusting that this may be deemed sufficient. What is that mean? We need the money. I have been a member of this house for some 40 years, and never ever have I believed that money is the bottom- line, and neither do many of the right on and honourable members here.

We cannot take faith-based education out of the hands of a certain class of people to punish those high-class schools with swimming pools. Let me assure this house that bang independent Christian school with their sunbeam to nursery schools have no pole. to nursery schools have no pole. Richard House prep has no sewing pool. There are primary schools that operate and won't have difficulty operating when these come into force and it simply isn't right. I know and I conclude with this that I know the strength of the Labour government means that this bill will pass, but I am urging individual MPs to consider who will be punished and to urge the government to review this tax-free education at this late hour.

We believe in the right for living your faith. We cannot tax that right out of reach, and that is why that bill has gone wrong, and therefore, it forces itself from the reality of the people that I represent. Thank you for letting me in. Pleasure.

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I addressed the issue, and I want

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I addressed the issue, and I want to thank Ministers for contributions. We have heard honourable member's concerns about
17:43
Jim McMahon Portrait Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )
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measures in the bill from operations, that they do not discuss policy. We do not agree with that budget. The government announces this to 2 lower multipliers for leisure properties and to deliver the uncertainty of the annual relief. Also, I set out in my opening speech that relief was a temporary stopgap measure. It has been in extended year-on-year but it doesn't provide the certainty that businesses require. It created a cliff edge, and I felt during our last session, he seemed to acknowledge that the cliff edge that was built in the previous system provided uncertainty to businesses and their ability to plan ahead.

In most welcome surely that this new law will multiply that permanent relief, give all businesses, whether retail party or leisure, that long- term security that they have been asking for, and importantly, in a way that is sustainable and self financing for the business rates system. The government through this Bill is taking the steps to address all of the measures that have been outlined, and this chosen approach is both appropriate and prudent. The challenging fiscal environment requires this. It is right that any tax cut must be funded.

Part of our commitment to sound financial management, and the government needs to do this for all properties with a value for more than £500,000, and it is important to say that affects less than 1% of properties in England, so less than 1% of properties will pay more, but to fund that lower multiplier for the businesses that we all recognise, for town centres and high streets, that is what we need to do. So this approach does deliver on the policy set out in the budget and the manifesto commitment to transform the system to one that is fairer, protects the high street and is fit In the comments about the healthcare sector that was made, because health providers are subject to the same business rate regime and that's been the case for 25 years in the Crown Estate ended its exemption from it.

Members will know that, they will also know that the financial support given to the NHS this year was a To deal with the inheritance that this government found itself in, but more importantly the legacy was holding the country back. That £22 billion is going where it's needed and of course any decisions about future financing is a matter for the Treasury at the appropriate points. On the question of multipliers in the review of the £500,000 threshold, we have already said there are provisions in the bill to address that and we have course are

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fully cited. I'm very grateful to him giving

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I'm very grateful to him giving way. He says that the solution is way. He says that the solution is alighted on, meets his manifesto commitments but his manifesto it commitments but his manifesto it says the new system will level the playing field between the High Street and online giants. That's not what this does, not exclusively, he knows that this is levying extra taxes extra business rates on High taxes extra business rates on High Street stores, large department stores, supermarkets, many other things, they are not online giants.



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The rating system reflects adequately the scale of properties adequately the scale of properties Of properties in the business rate system that will be captured under the high multiplier to fund that tax break for lower multipliers on the break for lower multipliers on the high streets, we heard in the evidence session he was sat there, where retailers said of course for our distribution centres that will have an impact, but we have so many stores below the threshold and actually allowing national retailers with multiple locations to benefit means that in the round they find themselves better off as a result of this policy.

When it comes to rebalancing online with the on the street, this is exactly what this does for the big distribution centres they will pay this relief. Just to conclude. If I can. Once again can I thank honourable members for contributions they have made. But for the reasons set out I respectfully ask that this House disagrees with amendments put before

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us will stop The question is this House disagrees with the Lords and their amendments 1B. As many are of that amendments 1B. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the
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None Portrait Division: Non-Domestic Rating (Mulitpliers and ETC.) Bill, Lords AMDT. 2B, Govt. Motion to Disagree
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The The question The question is The question is is The question is is on The question is is on the The question is is on the order Unlock the Unlock the doors.

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Order, Order, order.

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Order, order.

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The Ayes to the right 301, the Noes to the left, 104.

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Noes to the left, 104. The Ayes to the right, 301. The Noes to the left, 104. The "Ayes" Noes to the left, 104. The "Ayes" have it. Unlock. We now come to motion to disagree with Lords amendment 7B, I called the Minister to move the motion more -- formally. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment 7B. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No".

The "Ayes" have it. We now come to the motion to disagree with the Lords amendment 8B, I called the Minister to move the motion formally. The question is that this House disagrees to the Lords and their Amendment 8B. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". The "Ayes" have it. We now come to motion to disagree with the Lords amendment 13 B. I called the Minister to move the motion formally. The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment 13 B.

As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the
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None Portrait Division: Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and ETC) Bill, Lords AMDT. 13B, Govt. Motion to Disagree
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You You need You need to You need to be You need to be seated. You need to be seated. The You need to be seated. The question is on the Order Paper stop As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Tellers the Ayes Vicky Foxcroft and Jennifer kitchen, the tellers for the Noes

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The The Ayes The Ayes to The Ayes to the The Ayes to the right, The Ayes to the right, 301. The Ayes to the right, 301. The Noes to the left, 300 -- 167.

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Noes to the left, 300 -- 167. The Ayes to the right, 301. The Noes to the left, 167. The "Ayes" Noes to the left, 167. The "Ayes" Put Put the Put the question Put the question necessary Put the question necessary to Put the question necessary to bring to a conclusion proceedings on the Lords Message. We now come to the motion to disagree with the Lords amendments 15 B, 15 C, 15 D and 15 EE. The words restored to the bill by the Lords not insistent on their amendments 15.

I called the Minister to move the motion formally. The question is that this House disagrees with the amendments in their Amendment the Lords with their amendments to the words in the bill by the Lords on on the amendment 15. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No".

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Should Should not Should not be Should not be reminded Should not be reminded with Should not be reminded with every

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Should not be reminded with every

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Should not be reminded with every vote. Continue -- on the order papers, as many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye" on the contrary no. Tellers for the ayes, tellers
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18:43
18:43
Ian Sollom Portrait Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Because well modest in size, this Bill does have far-reaching implications for our skill system and millions of learners and and millions of learners and apprentices. It represents a significant centralising of power in significant centralising of power in the hands of the Secretary of State, without providing copper mechanisms for parliamentary oversight or for parliamentary oversight or accountability. Madam Deputy accountability. Madam Deputy Speaker, at this stage I've sat through many hours of the opposite side of the house, extolling the side of the house, extolling the virtues of Skills England as we have debated this bill.

I would highlight once again how this bill does not actually establish Skills England, as many assumed it would at the time. It simply abolishes IfATE and transfers its functions to the Secretary of State, an approach that risks creating a governance vacuum without proper scrutiny and defendant oversight. Looking at the evidence received by the bill committee, it is clear I am not alone in these concerns. The Association of colleges, the Royal Society of Chemistry, the University of Winchester and the Institute of motor industry all raise similar issues about governance and accountability in their written evidence omissions to the committee.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as noted by many in the second reading debate, skills policy in this country has suffered from constant reorganisation, and restructuring. The right honourable member for East Hampshire has reminded us several times that Skills England will be the 13th, I think, skills body in 50 years. With such a history employers providers and learners separately need stability and clarity. Again, coming to the bill committee evidence, the University of Winchester warned that the transfer of power from IfATE to the Secretary of State for Education, raises questions about the independence of the proposed Skills England regular Tory body.

They also highlighted that in IfATE, hasn't employers and academics come together to ensure the standard is industry relevant, current and academically rigorous. current and academically rigorous. Similarly, the skills Federation raised concerns that the clauses in the bill which transfer powers from IfATE to the secretary of state risks shifting the development of standards further away from employer demand, and too much centralisation leads to lack of focus on sector leads to lack of focus on sector

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New close one would very much assist the biggest provider of assist the biggest provider of apprenticeships in England and would he also join with me and others in the House in encouraging them on

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their path towards degrees as well. I think my honourable friend for

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I think my honourable friend for his intervention and, of course, would absolutely endorse those carriages -- colleges on their path. And the amendment will support setting up the skills that will support them more fully. Equally concerning is the need for effective cross departmental coordination. Skills policy does not exist in isolation. Skills England needs to work with, amongst others, the industrial strategy advisory Council on future workforce needs, migration advisory committee on reducing advisory committee on reducing resilience on overseas working -- workers.

The Department for net zero on creating skills, the Department for work and pensions unemployment programs. The Department of technology and the Department of health and social care on workforce planning period following the Chancellor's spring statement last week, the new defence growth board uncritical skills for our defence

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industry. In the statement, you refer to

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In the statement, you refer to the construction centre. We welcome the fact that 1.3 million houses the fact that 1.3 million houses will be built. But to build those, you need builders, you need plumbers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, you need all those people and you have to have them trained so they have to have them trained so they can do the job well. Does he believe that within what he is proposing tonight, does he feel the 1.3 million houses can be achieved?

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I thank the Member for his

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I thank the Member for his intervention. I would hope that better standard of scrutiny and accountability from Parliament would help deliver what is required and help deliver what is required and hold the other side of the House to account on delivering. So in the context of that cross departmental context of that cross departmental work, the lack of published framework for Skills England as we framework for Skills England as we consider this bill is deeply concerning. What we have seen so far suggests a structure that is heavily Department for Education centric.

Without statutory independence and appropriate seniority, Skills England will struggle to drive that cross departmental coordination that I think we all think the skills

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system needs. Yes. I am grateful to him for listening carefully to what he is saying. He is right that it would be saying. He is right that it would be a considerable centralisation if it wasn't for the creation of Skills wasn't for the creation of Skills England. In terms of that... Pardon me. I swallowed a fly. If it wasn't me. I swallowed a fly. If it wasn't with regard to the issue that he is raising, with regard to those department, does he think a non- governmental body like IfATE has been successful bringing back together and that a government body

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will not be. Or is he arguing for something different? Thank the Member for his intervention. I will come to the preference that I have and the reason for Skills England as an executive agency which fits with executive agency which fits with what the government once to do. I believe, as we will come to, that the amendment does not need to delay efforts, but I do think that, ultimately, a statutory body will have a non- departmental body will have more clout.

The remit for Skills England is, at least from what we understand, is very different from the remit for IfATE

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for that cross departmental working. I think in forgiving way. This government has taken bold action to government has taken bold action to abolish NHS England, and part of the motivation for doing that was so that when something isn't going that when something isn't going right in the NHS, the bank doesn't stop with quango who we cannot question directly. But with the question directly. But with the Minister themselves. That is better Minister themselves. That is better for governance and better for scrutiny.

It means that when the Health Secretary says something, isn't going well enough, we can question him robustly and challenge him to improve. Surely the honourable gentlemen sees that the way to push Skills England to be as robust as possible is by having that strong governance.

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I think there are different

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I think there are different options on that. If you are looking for, we will come to this later, in terms of the scale of the cross terms of the scale of the cross departmental working required is departmental working required is sitting outside a single government department is probably more effective. Moreover, those bodies effective. Moreover, those bodies can be held accountable effectively by Parliament. We have seen that by Parliament. We have seen that with some of the quangos, I believe the industrial strategy advisory Council will be set up as a statutory independent body when time allows.

I would suggest that Skills England is of the same order of magnitude and requirement in that magnitude and requirement in that sense. To make some progress, beyond the concerns around accountability and cross government authority, there are also practical operational risks to the approach laid out in the bill. The skills Federation, warned in its evidence that there is a risk that transfer functions from IfATE will become key focus for the setup of skills for -- Skills England unless resources will be placed above the overarching aim is.

That is of significant concern. In the rush to transfer operational functions, the broader purpose could be lost. It was a concern echoed by Lord Blunkett who suggested that there is a real danger that IfATE will swamp Skills England that birth and the governments own impact assessment acknowledges risk. Noting that the transfer function could potentially cause a slowdown in the growth rate of technical education courses due to technical delays in the approvals process and that may disproportionately impact disadvantaged learners.

During the committee, the Minister emphasised the urgency of addressing skills shortages and that delay is not an option. While we shared the government's commitment to addressing skills shortages urgently, I would respectfully suggest that there is wisdom in heeding the warning that University of Warwick laid out in its evidence that getting the foundations right is more important than his deconstruction. In light of these concerns, Madam Deputy Speaker, I speak to new clause one, which I previously proposed in committee stage.

This amendment provides a constructive solution to many of the issues I have outlined. It proposes a clear pathway for establishing Skills England as a dedicated executive agency within the Department for Education. Now, as I answered in the intervention, I do want to be clear. My party ultimately believes a fully independent statutory body with cross departmental authority would be the optimal approach. But we have recognised the government's preference for the executive agency model. So this amendment works within that structure to provide essential safeguards.

Under the proposal, the Secretary of State would produce draft proposals within six months for establishing skills England, ladies proposals before both houses, secure parliamentary approval before establishing the agency, provide annual statements on the agency's work and evaluate its effectiveness 12 months after establishment. This strikes the right balance between allowing the government to implement its policy with its desired speed while ensuring proper parliamentary scrutiny and meaningful stakeholder engagement. As I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, I propose this amendment in committee and because I believe parliamentary scrutiny is essential for an organisation with such far- reaching responsibilities.

The Minister argued then that the standard accountability mechanisms for -- are sufficient. I would contend that Skills England is not just another executive agency. It is central to the government's economic growth mission and to creating opportunities for millions of people. Standard executive agency protocols are built for business as usual functions, not for what should be a transformative body at the heart of the government's economic strategy. A proper accountable skills England, even as an executive agency, would ensure that employer voices remain central to standards rather than being consultative.

Technical expertise is maintained and developed across economic cycles. Parliament maintains appropriate oversight for this critical area of policy, and the political short-term is doesn't override long-term skills planning. The committee, the Minister argued against this amendment on several grounds. She suggested it would cause an unnecessary delay in urgent skills challenges. She pointed to the existing accountability mechanisms and she emphasised that Skills England is already operating in shadow form and is poised to take these functions when the bill passes.

So let me address these concerns. On the issue of delay, the amendment requires reporting of parliamentary approval within six months. I think a reasonable timeframe that would not significantly impede progress. As the skills Federation noted, proper planning with the transfer of these functions is essential for success and Parliamentary scrutiny would reinforce rather than impede the effective delivery of Skills England on that ground. On the issue of the existing accountability mechanisms, these are indeed important, but are surely insufficient for a new organisation of skills England's significance.

As the University of Winchester argued in evidence to the Bill's committee, Skills England should be structured to protect regulatory independence from government agencies. The framework and annual report to our important tools but are prepared by the executive without meaningful parliamentary input. Regarding Skills England's currents shadow operations, that is welcome at preparation. But operating without parliamentary scrutiny or approval only underscores the need for this amendment. Important decisions about structure, governance and priorities are being made right now without any oversight from this place.

The Secretary of State indicated during second reading that the government may review Skills England's status in 18-24 months to determine whether it needs to be an independent Dutch Tory body and the Minister confirmed this in the timetable with the this in the timetable with the committee as well. Why wait? Why wait to establish predatory -- and ability with employees now? It's worth noting that the government plans to put the industrial strategy advisory Council on a statutory footing when time allows according to their own documentation.

So this suggests that they recognise the value of statutory independence of key strategic bodies. So why should Skills England be treated Skills England be treated differently? New clause one offers a constructive path forward, one that attempts to build on the debates we have already had. Personally, I was disappointed that the government opposed this amendment, but I do propose that proper parliamentary scrutiny remains compelling. While my Liberal Democrat colleagues and I believe a fully independent statutory body would be the ideal model for Skills England, this amendment works with the government's chosen executive framework to add essential parliamentary scrutiny and accountability.

The Minister assured us in committee that Skills England will have robust governance arrangements and clear lines of accountability. If the government truly leaves indispensable, they should welcome rather than resist proper parliamentary oversight. If Skills England is to be the cornerstone of our skill system for years to come, even as an executive agency with the demand for education, we must ensure it has the transparency, accountability and Parliamentary oversight to withstand changes in political parties and I urge colleagues across the house to support this amendment and ensure the transfer of functions leads to better outcomes for apprentices, students, employers and the economy

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as a whole. Thank you. Draft proposals for establishing new executive agency.

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new executive agency. The question is that new clause one be read a second time and happy one be read a second time and happy birthday. Do you wish to contribute or celebrate your birthday on the

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or celebrate your birthday on the bench? No? Perfect. Thank you very much, I am rather blown away. It was actually on blown away. It was actually on Saturday, but thank you so much. It is a pleasure to speak in favour of this bill. As a member of the bill committee and of the all-party
19:02
Pam Cox Portrait Pam Cox MP (Colchester, Labour)
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parliamentary group on apprenticeships, this bill is vital because it behaves the way for the because it behaves the way for the creation of Skills England, new and creation of Skills England, new and in dishes body that will bring a fresh urgency to this task of upskilling our young people and there's an urgency about this. -- there's an urgency about this. -- ambitious body. Skills England will on the valuable work of the Institute for Apprenticeships and Institute for Apprenticeships and technical education and I would like

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technical education and I would like to pay tribute -- If you could be seated for a moment, we are talking about the amendments to the bill, not the overall bill. It may be ideal to refer to the amendments if you disagree with them, but you need to bring your contribution in line with the debate this evening.

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I will resume. Thank you so much. The issue here is whether we should delay the introduction of this delay the introduction of this matter in order to allow more time matter in order to allow more time to set up Skills England. A lot of preparatory work has been done to set up Skills England already, as we set up Skills England already, as we discussed quite fully in the bill committee and we do need to get going in training of these carpenters and plumbers and apprentices and electricians that we

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all know that we need. Were my friend we give way? I think my honourable Friend forgiving think my honourable Friend forgiving way. They're basing a boost to its city centre with a restored marketplace and the good yard which has been derelict but now is being transformed into 276 new homes. What we do not want is for the ambition that we have for our city to be held back by skill shortages. Does my back by skill shortages.

Does my That rather than the dither of delay that is being proposed by those opposite we need to get on with this legislation so we can train the next generation of bricklayers and roofers, plasterers, scaffolders and electricians that our country so

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desperately needs? I thank her for her intervention, and I would agree with that. This morning for a travel to Westminster, morning for a travel to Westminster, from Colchester, I visited GTL, which is a national organisation with a base in our city that trains with a base in our city that trains thousands of apprentices and had similar exchanges with them so I would very much agree the urgency of would very much agree the urgency of which I spoke is about their futures, about securing their futures.

I know that the bill committee debated this in some committee debated this in some detail, and you have outlined them ministers responses. Those responses standard I'm satisfied that we should not delay in setting up Skills England because the young people of Colchester and Derby and elsewhere simply do not have the time to wait and on that note, last week the government announced plans to train 60,000 new construction workers to help the 1.5 million homes we will need to see going up in the course of this.

Moves like this and many others show that we are working at pace and working at pace to reverse many years of stagnation and I hope we can work at pace today to pass this bill.

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Are you taking intervention? You have included your speech or taking intervention? I will take intervention.

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I will take intervention. I'm generally checking because we concluded your speech. You have locked out. There we are.

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locked out. There we are. Thank you. Thank you Madam Deputy

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Thank you. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I wanted to make a contribution to this report stage
19:05
Damian Hinds Portrait Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)
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contribution to this report stage debate, particularly in favour of new clause 4 and amendment six. As on the train to Westminster I typed into my tablet "Short speech." it changed to "I rate speech." I'm not very good I write speech, it is likely my thing. I will do is make a slightly disappointed speech with a hint of optimism, for I have hope from this minister that she may take this opportunity to do something that might be of significant benefits in the training system in this country.

I know why the government can forward with the idea of a new quango, or not even a quango, SMI quango, called Skills England. I know what they did that, because there's a lot of other things than having to talk to British industry about and they knew deep down they're going to do some things which was going to be unpopular, the aspects of the employment rights Bill, the massive hike in national insurance contributions in business rates and these things are bad for employment.

They also aspects that have been unpopular with employers and then with this Skills England, ministers have come up with, campaigners and ministers have come up with something that they thought business really like, that they would really want. In truth, if they are going to fix the two big underlying issues in our system, was to make issues or the productivity gap we have in this country compared to France, the United States and Germany. In the parity of esteem will say we want and we do want, between academic learning and vocational learning, then we need to make technical vocational education better.

We also need to make it simpler, and we need to make it more appealing. But above all, it needs to be made better. And that is entirely what the Sainsbury view, spearheaded by the noble labourer Lord was all about, was giving us a simpler, more appealing system led by business which would deliver the highest quality of

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technical education. Thank you forgiving way. I take this point about parity between technical and academic education first interviews. In the direction would be to attract people into the would be to attract people into the publishers seem was to make sure they are paying the national minimum wage in line with their age group.

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wage in line with their age group. There's always the truth is when you're doing an apprenticeship, they you're doing an apprenticeship, they can be abuse and in the past there were abuses of the apprenticeship system and the lower rate that could be paid and many employers do of course pay full rates to people of whatever age during apprenticeship, but it is also true getting four days a week, not five days a week of work of somebody and it is a form of learning, opposite proportions were in the same way of doing it to level, it is partly done at college and partly with an employer must and theirs was a risk that if you over now that gap, there might be fewer people applauded that opportunity in the first place and I take my hat off to those many employers who did invest very strongly in their young people, particularly in young people in the way that he outlines.

Clearly, quality cannot be guaranteed just by how you do the structure of government or the executive agency that is going to oversee it. But quality is less if you get the structure wrong. The two you get the structure wrong. The two key things with IfATE key to this debate for these amendments we have been considering today were firstly its independence from government, its independence from government, and secondly there was, I have trouble with the past tense already, it is independent, there is a guaranteed business voice.

Of course, they will say that we listen to business, we want business to be third for plans are designed, of course they will say this, but it is not guaranteed. In what they plan to set up. Just saying that we will listen is not enough. It is that independence which gives people, that means employers, it means the learners, the young people themselves in difficulty else, the confidence to know that the government cannot and it may not be this minister or this from it, no government can erode the standards for some reason because they want to increase the volumes of people on those courses artificially.

There has been a feature of this debate, not this debate today because we have just got going, in the broader debate to have colleagues from the benches opposite saying "We are going to get the numbers of people getting partnerships up." of course they are going to get the numbers up, that much is blindingly obvious. I'm reminded of the time in the past when many people did not know they were on an apprenticeship, so loose were the requirements around it.

So, we raised the minimum length of time for any partnership, we raise the amount of planning off the job training. And in college-based education, at the Sainsbury board, it was reported that those altercations have become divorced from the occupations, from the centres -- sectors they were there to serve. We are seeing with the change from 12 months to minimum eight months apprenticeship, we have already seen that erosion of what the Senate is. There is plenty of training. Plenty of trading in industry that does not require a 12 month minimum.

There always has been. If you're going to have a short course, just do not call it an apprenticeship. It is training. It is very worthwhile, does not necessarily mean it is the same thing. In Germany, which is usually the country the people look to as the international standard on these things, an apprenticeship is typically two or three years in by the way, it is also typically two days a week, not one day a week, in college and in that two days a week, typically young people are doing a full timetable of what in this country we call general education or more commonly might be recognised as academic subjects as well as vocational.

So in Germany, you can do an apprenticeship to become a food and beverage manager, but if you want to be a bartender, there is not an apprenticeship for that role because it does not take that long to train to be a bartender. You do another kind of training. And we have come to a strange position in this country were because we have the apprenticeship levy, there's lots and lots of lobbying of course, to count more and more things as an apprenticeship, so it can be paid for out of the apprenticeship levy but that is not the right way around to do things.

Already we ask the word apprenticeship to do a lot. In most countries it means young people

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at age 16 or 21. I could not resist. The honourable gentleman. That is in each view -- a niche

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That is in each view -- a niche view, that. He is talking about the fact that that apprenticeship levy fact that that apprenticeship levy creates a straitjacket whereby the real value to what is being offered real value to what is being offered but it may be should not fit into an apprenticeship is not that precisely apprenticeship is not that precisely the aim of this government's approach and actually he is advocating for precisely what the government is also suggesting which is to make it more flexible, it doesn't have to be one year.

An investment of a different kind to an apprenticeship. Isn't he arguing in favour of what the government are basically proposing?

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It is not, no. He is saying something different, which is of something different, which is of course there is value in training and all sorts of training all different levels. In my working different levels. In my working career, I did various stints of training but they were not called an apprenticeship. You do not have to cost something apprenticeship for it cost something apprenticeship for it to be a worthwhile piece of to be a worthwhile piece of training. Already, we ask the word training.

Already, we ask the word apprenticeship to cover a lot of things. In most countries it means typically younger people starting their career. Here, it covers career starters and also career developers, and covers career changes. If anything, I think we ought to be thinking about how we can refocus or differentiate between those different types of requirements that individuals have a different hands of their career and their employers have as well. We are not in this bill about to fix or address that but I am hopeful, this is where I started, that the government, they have given indications that they may have heard the message on the two key elements when certifying and specifying qualifications, that you need to have independence and you need to have that guaranteed business voice, and that is precisely what new clause 4 would do in creating that independence.

New clause 1 also has a lot of merit. He has put a great deal of thought to this and as we have gone through the committee but the additional point about the statutory independence is absently fundamental and if the Minister is minded to accept one amendment, and thinking about to, what do you think? If she is minded to accept one amended, it should be new clause 4. I think everybody in this House actually wants skills are going to succeed. As with so many things we debate, we are actually looking for a broadening the same end goal.

And amendment 6 is what I would call a breathing space amendment to make that success more likely because it reinstates back into the bill the one-year that the House of Lords, the normal lordships put into the bill as it was going through their house meaning there would be a year of operational skills before it had to absorb IfATE's functions. The honourable gentleman has already gone through some of those reasons why. Absorbing IfATE's functions is itself an enormous undertaking with I think the noble Lord estimated close to 200 people coming into the organisation and the words we have heard from that debate.

IfATE could swamp Skills England at birth because Skills England has a much broader function than the functions of IfATE. That broader function is incredibly important. And it is not They have different shapes and sizes, if you like. We know Skills England will prioritise 10 sectors. They are the eighth growth driving sectors in the strategy and the government has added to that construction and health and social care, which are also listed as being essential to the government's missions. 10 sectors altogether to feed into the industrial strategy.

The noble Baroness, Baroness Smith, says that work is under way on eight of those. That does beg the question, what about the other two? What about two of the three big volume employment sectors in this country, which are hospitality and retail. Which for abroad -- a broad labour market strategy are essential. So IfATE... Of course pray

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He picks up on the important point of a number of sectors being included. There is a danger that this will be tilted towards London and the south-east ignoring large and the south-east ignoring large areas such as the Midlands and the north of the country which will

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north of the country which will suffer as a result of a prescribed focus that Skills England has got My right honourable friend makes

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My right honourable friend makes

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an important point which stands. Just to refer back to the previous intervention, I'm an MP for Bournemouth and we are excited about construction coming to our area. Bournemouth College has told me they have 600 construction apprentices on their books but have to turn away hundreds more. That is opportunities being lost. They welcome the transfer of responsibility to Skills England. Should we not be listening to colleges?

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Of course. I would always -- also say that the government just announced it was going to employ thousands of people to go into construction but we cannot do anything until we subsume the skills anything until we subsume the skills from IfATE into it. I don't see how those things fit together. We do those things fit together. We do want more people going into construction. By the way, a long list of other sectors as well. That list of other sectors as well.

That doesn't necessarily mean that in every case, it must be an apprenticeship. There is a suite of existing technical vocational courses. T levels are still ramping up as well. On the breadth versus depth question, IfATE does a huge range. More than 600 occupational standards for apprenticeships, T levels and Higher Technical Qualifications, where Skills England is initially looking at a narrower set of sectors but with a broader remit. It does more than IfATE, and the three big things on its list are to identify where skills gaps exist.

It may sound obvious but it isn't. It's a question of what time horizon you are talking about pray today? Planning five, 10 more years into the future. More significantly, if you take a sector like social care, for example, generally speaking people would say you could train more people into social care. The issue is not if we have the training courses available but are people willing, happy to go into social care. That is a broader question.

Secondly, it's going to work across government with the industrial strategy Council, the migration advisory committee. And also the labour market advisory board. The map, migratory advisory committee, is an established body of quite some years, which has a remit on immigration. It doesn't necessarily has the same perspective as a Skills England body will do. The ISC, as the honourable gentlemen rightly said, it is going to be given its own statutory footing. This begs the question, where in the hierarchy Skills England is going to be.

We want a body which is able to beak -- speak authoritatively. And thirdly, to identify what training via the growth and skills levy. That is a huge strategic question about what should be allowable to be funded from the levy, what should be further specific skills that you should rightly expect a firm to be watching you generalise skills for the economy and so far. After that, there is still a big question. About listening to colleges. Absolutely right. There is some question about supply and demand at the college level.

We don't stop people doing courses at the moment because there is a surplus of people and a shortage somewhere else, but some of the really hard questions are going to be around funding, how you fund these things to make sure you have enough people going into construction and social care and so on. So my contention is that each of those functions is enormous. This amendment six would perform a very useful role, not dither and delay, but allowing Skills England to really establish itself to do those key strategic things that it is there to do and then to be able to subsume these functions.
19:23
Andrew Pakes Portrait Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow my right honourable friend from East Hampshire and also my friends who make powerful interventions on behalf of their amendments. But I will be speaking against both of these clauses because they risk undermining some of the speed at which we need to make change within this sector. It is a privilege to speak in this debate on something I am passionate about. I am co-chair of the group for apprenticeships.

The transfer of functions to the Secretary of State in the creation of Skills England is one of the most critical reforms this government is due to bring about and addresses one of the most damaging things of the last government which is the fall in apprenticeships. This matters when it comes to the structure of their bills, it is my concern in particular. It also matters in a constituency like mine in Peterborough where we have falling apprenticeship stats and rising unemployment. A city that has one of the highest loads of young people not in education, employment or training.

This is not a folly of young people let down, but the story of a failed economy. I take an opposite view to that expressed by my right honourable friend from East Hampshire who seems to elevate independence of IfATE -- independence of Skills England as a virtue for what it can deliver, when I see the independence of IfATE as one of the tools for its failure. It had an independence that removed it from economic need, made it bureaucratic, failed to address the needs of businesses and other providers to get the flexibility and delivery of skills we need.

That independence doesn't guarantee success or things you need in this period

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Would you extend that principle

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Would you extend that principle to the academic routes? I have asked in the members are number of time, I don't think we would stand for don't think we would stand for saying A-levels, the standard of saying A-levels, the standard of specification should be set. If we win do it for A-levels, why is it win do it for A-levels, why is it all right 40 levels? What is the answer to that?

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Thank you very much. I think we need a mixed economy in this period the principles I elevate about speed, substance, bringing businesses around the table alongside providers and colleges like my excellent one in Peter -- Peterborough to deliver the goods and get the job done. My concerns with new course one, news was -- new clause 4 and amendment six, it does not address the issue. Many of the issues my colleague described in his speech were around delivery, around political choices and actually having the Secretary of State and the Department establish Skills England would make it more likely, in my view, to deliver speed on some of those challenges.

Scrutiny will come from all sides of this House if that is not the case. Our number one mission is economic growth spread across all parts of the UK built on a diverse base of industries and services. The government has made a powerful start which could be undermined by these amendments if delays further. The move to functional English and maths, foundation apprenticeships as flexibility and routing, 600 million investment and construction skills. I welcome the replies from the Minister for skills in written answers around acknowledging the need for social mobility to one of the factors that Skills England will give a view to.

We change the opportunities in life. I am passionate and I know the co- operative group and employers I took to are very important. This mission will fail without the urgency needed to get this bill is passed and Skills England up and running. It is already set up in shadow form. It provides, with the urgency of the task, the best of external leadership, it provides an independence for those voices around the table already meeting the needs of new clause 1 and new clause 4.

It focuses on delivery and speed in which we can get going and bringing jobs and opportunities around all parts of the country. The government has been clear already before these amendments were tabled. The transfer of this to introduce more flexibility to the skill system. I endorse that. While I wish to be more responsive to the needs of employers, learners and the economy, I equally endorse that. I think new clause 1 and new clause 4 risk delaying and creating confusion rather than aiding purpose and delivery for what we need.

That's why I oppose the move to create a separate agency or buying Skills England before it is created. This isn't a debate, it is the message that schools tell me in Leadership at all levels to improve the lives of our economy and the independence of IfATE, as was said earlier, elevates it to A-level that risks undermining getting going quickly. A few weeks ago I met with MDS, a not-for-profit in my own constituency. They are a pioneer in flex job apprenticeship, working with biggest names in the food sector to create a workforce for tomorrow.

They are looking for Skills England and this bill to create the flexibility and opportunities business and learners needs. They will be sorry to see delays when they know what needs to be done to get the jobs done. They want this bill. What additional funding and resources are available to help businesses provide pre- apprenticeship training for individuals who have been unemployed long-term? They want the government to do that quickly. They want to understand how the government is supporting the growth of flax job apprenticeships to help attract new talent.

A direct criticism of what we already have and are concerned that delaying will make it more difficult. We have already heard that Skills England will identify skills gaps and work with the council and migration advisory committee to plug those gaps, a direct link between industry, MACRA industrial Council addressing the industrial need and purpose we have, the speed at which we need to get going, which means we do not need these clauses. It is a bill about skills and addressing skills shortages.

Needs to get going. I moved to support it and oppose these

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The can services broker apprenticeship system and betrayed young people. The Liberals are young people. The Liberals are calling on the government of they are serious about growth to sleep and is obstructed by investing in a
19:30
Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)
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and is obstructed by investing in a duration and training enclosing increasing the availability of 23 people. A dippy speaker that is why today I wish to speak in support of new clause 1, table in the name of my honourable friend. This new clause requires the Secretary of State to bring poor proposals to the executive agencies for skills. -- brings forward proposals. Sector specific skills about the national abilities intrusive each student and I believe we should be focused on strengthening careers advice and links with employers in schools or colleges to allow people to have clear alternative steps to a career that does not require them to go to university when this may not be the best option for the specific student.

Any business will tell you the apprenticeship levy does not work. They cannot get the funding they need to train staff and hundreds of millions of pounds of funding is returned and spent to disappear into the Treasury. A list of the money will ring fenced to build the education budget that would benefit the employers they contribute but it does not. I'm glad the government is reforming the current system play urgent to accept my friend Max and which requires a new plan for their proposals. We must improve not only the quality of vocational education including skills that entrepreneurship itself but also the awareness amongst pupils as they make initial decisions about their further education and career.

I've spoken to young people in my constituency who are currently undertaking a printer shifts in hospitality industry and if spoken positively about the opportunities they have had to develop their skills while earning a wage. However, I've also heard many British jobs do not pay enough people to meet living expenses that are discreetly important that young people are provided with solid footings to not discourage them from pursuing apprenticeships in their field and address and I believe the lower minimum wage for apprenticeships should be scrapped to assure that apprentices are paid at least a minimum wage as other employees their age.

And I constantly hear from small or medium-sized businesses across my constituency who are struggling with workforce shortages, we need to build capacity in the workforce and within industry stress growth to ensure British business can hire people with the correct skills to allow industry to thrive. The printer should have a huge role to play upskilling one glad the government is taking action to reform the current system, urge them to accept new clause 1 which will give us proper details about the new system will look like.

Friendships can play a crucial part in addressing many of the staff shortages which businesses face with equipping people with the skills they need to thrive. Liberal Democrats have called on the government to invest in skills in the five urge the Minister to accept

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this amendment. Thank you. Thank you very much. A pleasure to speak in this debate. The to speak in this debate. The amendment, I think the points raised by the honourable gentleman have
19:33
Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)
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merit. I think there is a legitimate question about the basis on which Skills England operates. I think many people want to see it being taken seriously. And there is a big question about whether it gets taken more seriously, the independent body, whether it is taken more seriously as part of the government, there's different opinions on that. The honourable lady from Richmond Park said the government needs to get serious. I have to say, whether or not we adopt new clause 1 is not in any serious sense the difference between this being a transformational bill otherwise.

It is a very small moment to what is a fairly limited bill in its scope. I think we should be realistic about the amount of difference we are actually debating here but I think the government's argument that the way the amendment is trapped will add additional delay, will stop skills that exist to get along with taking some of those powers will have some merit. The honourable gentleman for East Hampshire made gentleman for East Hampshire made some interesting points, and the former education secretary, it is always important to take seriously he says and he is a serious man and I listen very carefully to what he said.

I have to say that about many of the complaints that he rightly identified about the skill system, about how fragmented it is, but how complicated it is, and about the extent to which many employers felt distanced from it, were entirely legitimate criticisms but were largely a commentary on what we had seen over the 14 years of the previous government and the system that this government bequeathed. And actually, he held as a criticism of this government the fact that they had a policy that they thought would be popular with business, I would see that as a real virtue because I do think there are many businesses out there, and I've heard from them myself as co-chair, some of my excellent colleagues, the right honourable friend from Peterboro, how much they welcome the greater Fox ability that this government is proposing.

-- flexibility. It would be really important to understand how skills and actually will seek to ensure that greater flexibility. And I think my honourable Friend from Stoke-on-Trent Central who has raised the issue of degree apprenticeships, I think that is an important question and I think there is some real merit in degree apprenticeships. I also hope that Skills England ensure that we get far greater provision at the bottom end of the scale, not just level II and Level 3, which have fallen dramatically since the introduction of the apprenticeship levy.

But also at level I. I would like to see the apprenticeship levy being used to support many of those people who have come out of our school system with very few qualifications quite possibly have EHCP lands in school, able to access work -- plans. But are going to need time to get up to speed on jobs and the opportunities for level I oppression -- apprenticeships will support people have tremendous merit and I hope this is something the government will consider.

The honourable gentleman from East Hampshire also referred to the merit of Germany and the skills system that is widely admired across the world to think it is important to say that there is actually a far greater cultural understanding. One of the ways German understand themselves as about their skill system and about the value they put into a craft and into a trade and so there is not just about the way you structure a skill system.

It requires a complete reversal of the way we have understood this country over the past 30 or 40 years. I think there is a huge merit in much that they have in Germany but adopting it and thinking we will achieve cultural change is not something I believe is true. It needs to be entirely wrapped up with the industrial strategy that this government needs to develop. The honourable gentleman is right to say the government envisioned Skills England having a wider scope and are hugely welcome that because one of the great failures of the system that existed under the previous government was there was an array of different initiatives and bodies that floated around not connected to each other and he referred to the skill system, I don't believe in this country right now we have a skill system.

We have an array of different initiatives without any coherence at all and are very much we have a body that will start the task of bringing this very complicated and fragmented system together so I have no idea whether Skills England will be a success but and confident that it could be and that actually the direction the government are attempting to go with this, if they have the courage to follow it to its full potential has the potential of bringing about that sort of change that we desperately need.

We also need much more coherent pathways to level 4 and 5. We have at this moment in this country a basic understanding as to what level 2 and 3 partnerships are. The previous government did a tremendous amount to promote level 6 apprenticeships and they are popular in some traits. But actually, if you're going to end up getting a degree may be six or seven years down the line, that is a hell of a long way and many things can go wrong in terms of limit.

You might lose your job, the company might cease to exist and actually might not want to commit six or seven years towards a being able to have stopoff points at level IV, level V, for businesses touched and there is something beyond level III that is not necessarily look like a degree I think would be tremendously valuable. I hope that the government will look to do that. Of course is absently fundamental that we listened to employers and that all of them feel they have a stake in the school system.

I do not believe that the government or Skills England will not want to listen to employers. They are entirely the arbiters of whether or not we have a successful skill system. I do not think they have to be independent in order to be able to listen to governments and I think there is a potential argument that a body within the government would be better placed to bring together that much more strategic approach than the independent IfATE ever were able to. It will be useful to hear from my honourable friend which gets to it about how she anticipates killing and reaching out and listening to employers and businesses, particularly about which courses will be appropriate for the growth in skills levy that might not look like an apprenticeship, but will be crucial qualifications that people will be able to work towards.

I would also like to welcome the government's decision to take forward many of the construction skills boot camps that I think the government quite understandably has question marks about the value of boot camps and huge amounts of the previous government's education budget went in that direction. I do think within the construction sector, there was real value to those and I'm pleased to see, to hear from employers, training providers in my constituency that they have been told the construction Boot Camp will be carrying on.

And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to say that we often speak about the skills environment as though it is something that clearly exists outside of here, but of course we are as member of Parliament, employers ourselves. We are all involved in upskilling our own staff and I am proud to say my own apprentice, Ali Chapman, their recently completed successfully her level III apprenticeship. She is not an apprentice MP, she is an apprentice office support worker but she has done a tremendous amount in my office.

Over the course of the

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last 16 months. She was actually the top in her class. Here, here! Thank you very much. It is

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Thank you very much. It is important that we also walk the walk as well as talking the talk and I as well as talking the talk and I would encourage any other members of Parliament to consider whether they might have a role for an apprentice might have a role for an apprentice in their office. On that happy note, I encourage the government to keep I encourage the government to keep going, do listen to employers. It is important we get this right because there's nothing more important to the future success of our economy

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than having a more coherent skill system that enables us to make the very best of all of our people. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.
19:43
Anna Gelderd Portrait Anna Gelderd MP (South East Cornwall, Labour)
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and develop my honourable debate and develop my honourable Friend. I overcome this bill and the establishment of Skills England and I oppose you close 1 and 4 and 6. I do not agree with the amendment to delete because we civilly need action now. This bill is a crucial step forward in addressing challenges felt across the country and in South East Cornwall in particular. We need access to well- paid and stable employment close to home to ensure people do not have to leave their communities or take on debt just to access higher skills and wages.

In my area, transport connectivity is particularly a barrier to employment. Quarrel in the south-west has been overlooked and underfunded and this bill represents Labour's focus to crack on and deliver real change for people who need it. -- travel. I want to make sure this bill delivers first South East Cornwall. There are already great apprenticeship schemes established we must make sure more of them are viable and accessible. This is what this bill delivers. In the most recent full academic year of 2023 to 24, South East Cornwall says 760 partnerships started but only 530 people successfully achieving friendship standards.

Of the 760 instead, the majority were aged 25 or older. The most common level of study was intermediate level. I'm very proud of those who reach those achievements and I know there will be so many more to come. I'm concerned that younger people are not able to access these opportunities as readily as they should and those who do not always progressing to a higher level under the previous government. The 760 apprenticeship to start a rep since a significant drop from the 2018 to 19 numbers when South East Cornwall saw over 1000, 1070 apprenticeship start their schemes.

These numbers continue to decline over the past five years before the Labour government took office, representing 28.4 percent decrease in apprenticeships started over five years. This buildup since a vital opportunity to reverse this decline, felt really strongly in South East Cornwall. And to provide improvement to our work place, economy is in skills. We need to remove unnecessary barriers in the skill system so we can respond more quickly to the needs of apprentices, their employers and the economy. Skills in an already existed in a shadow form.

It is time to bring it directly out into the light and make it work for those who need it most. I know local residents and businesses in South East Cornwall are concerned about stability and future opportunities. This bill and the astonishment of Skills England is an opportunity to deliver that stability for businesses to plan their workforce, to invest in skills development and to create quality development and to create quality We We can We can ensure We can ensure that We can ensure that structures We can ensure that structures are providing opportunities to the alignment of skills with our industrial strategy to promote coordinated skills planning across the country.

While the focus means that local solutions Cornish people know what works best with us and it's only right that we shape our own future. This bill offers a chance to bring tangible benefits to ensure that we have the skills and opportunities to thrive. Look forward to working with a government that delivers on its promise. Thank you.

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I will aim to keep remarks brief having served on the Bill committee. having served on the Bill committee. Before I speak about why we should not amend the bill with clause 1 and four and amendment six, I will set the scene. Period I warmly welcome the scene. Period I warmly welcome the role this bill will pay in paving the way for Skills England. It is right we crack on to allow the It is right we crack on to allow the Secretary of State to transfer the tools to Skills England to allow it to fill the skills gap we need to
19:48
Josh Dean Portrait Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)
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fill and ensure that the workforce is equipped to power economic is equipped to power economic growth. As you may know, my constituency sits next to Stamford constituency sits next to Stamford -- Stansted airport and we have many uncool undergoing courses at the Stansted College. I didn't take a whirl last Friday on the simulator to learn how to fly a plane. You may to learn how to fly a plane. You may save that for a future visit. I was delighted to find out more about how they are using talent to fill a growing gap in the aerospace sector growing gap in the aerospace sector and the careers focused courses giving young people the skills for working life.

This morning, I was proud to welcome the honourable member for the Minister for School Standards where we heard about the impact for local support staff and met the staff providing those courses. It was really moving to hear those apprentices talk about the confidence that had been built for them by taking those courses. The opportunity to find and develop a new skill, something you are passionate about, doesn't just get young people into the workforce, it builds their confidence and helps them provide -- find course that is right for them.

That is why we can ensure that we get this bill through, I know from personal experience as a young person that left school at 16, I didn't follow the path of apprenticeship but didn't know what the direction was for me. For young people who need to find the past, who need certainty at the end, don't want to follow traditional education. That is work that we simply cannot delay. Young people are being let down by a skill system that is not working for them.

One in eight young people are not in education, employment or training. It is holding them back. More than one third of vacancies in 2022 was due to skills shortages. We need urgent reform. We cannot afford to delay. I would urge the honourable members to pass this this evening to create opportunities for young people across the country and to build their confidence, help them found the path that is right for

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them and make a difference to their lives. Thank you. I was proud to serve
19:51
Peter Swallow Portrait Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)
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Thank you. I was proud to serve on the Bill committee for this vital piece of legislation, a small bill piece of legislation, a small bill One that is mighty. I rise to speak against amendment six. In doing so, I want to highlight local success story in recognition of the third national supported internship day which took place on 27 March. Also happens to be my birthday. For 15 years, my local college have been working together with over 100 employers to offer supported internship placements for learners with special education needs.

This scheme offers invaluable opportunities, providing skills, confidence and qualifications necessary to thrive in the workplace. Partners include the National Grid, hospital, Johnson & Johnson and is an excellent example of the local college working with big players in the energy, medical and food industry to provide high quality schemes and stable, well- paid employment. It is proof that young people with special educational needs can thrive with the right support. When we are facing one in eight young people not in education, employment or training, after 14 years of the Tories and an 11 year high in the number of young people with any 80, -- we need this address this challenge.

Skills England will deliver opportunities across the country including green energy, construction and healthcare. It is vital for the government's mission and vital for communities like Bracknell. It is a step towards ending fragmentation, a less complex, more flexible skills system which will deliver for young people, especially those with special educational needs. By bringing together different constituent parts of the current skills architecture, Skills England will create a system which is fit the person -- purpose and capable of driving economic growth in the year to come.

Period it will lay the ground for a better system. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a need to move fast on this. As the honourable -- right honourable member for East Hampshire pointed out, UK productivity is almost 40% below the US and 20% below other economies such as France and Germany. We know that a major reason for that is lack of appropriate skills. Given that, the Conservatives amendment six which would delay this by a year is nothing short of irresponsible.

We need to work faster, not more slowly. It is indicative of their approach to government. When there was a challenge, they ducked it. When a decision was needed, they put it off. When a broken system needed fixing, they left it for the next lot. The next lot are now in government and will not put off what needs to be done today. We know that skills are key to tackling productivity gaps. But rings are changing rapidly, so it is crucial to equip young people with the skills necessary to succeed in the job market of tomorrow.

That is exactly what this job will -- bill

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will deliver. On the face of it, this is a technical bill, but the benefits to transition to skills England, including communities like Birmingham are tangible. The amendments in front of us will have amendments in front of us will have similar effects in terms of timing. New clause 4 and amendment six were New clause 4 and amendment six were delayed by a year. There is a risk that by accepting amendments of this nature, we risk recreating IfATE under the name of Skills England.

We cannot wait that long, as my colleagues have said, and a new approach is needed. As the first
19:56
Laurence Turner Portrait Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)
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Skills England report published last September, there has been a steady September, there has been a steady decline in investments in training. decline in investments in training. It has fallen by around 20% even though 90% of the roles in critical demand across the economy require demand across the economy require training or education. In my constituency, that fell by 35%. More constituency, that fell by 35%. More than double the national rate. This than double the national rate. This is a social issue as well, more than half of the young people not in education, employment or training are cast as vulnerable and adult skills funded education is access particular in those areas in my constituency and I'm sure it's similar to others with some of the highest level of social needs including the states and Kings Norton.

Nationally, 1 billion Nationally, £1 billion per year were spent in response to the Freedom of Information request in 2022 and at the same time, major local employers have expressed frustration to me. I have seen some very good work already done locally to provide apprenticeships and technical education. Next month, we will witness 20th anniversary of energy Rover in my constituency. Birmingham is one of the largest training providers in the west Midlands. That providers in the west Midlands.

That college offers impressive programs developing technical and soft skills of students in a multitude of industries including catering, automotive and advanced manufacturing. As manufacturing jobs start to return to Longbridge, the experienced staff who work there will be vital to delivering economic growth and opportunities for young people, but they are attempting to fit into a system that is not fit for purpose and not working. In other words, skills policy is essential for this government's plans for economic recovery and industrial strategy.

I think it is appropriate to place, for this period, the accountability for new development directly with developers. We have heard a lot about whether Skills England should be created as a stand-alone industry. As we heard at second reading, the government may review Skills England status after 18 months which seems like a sensible way forward. This is a legitimate debate to have but we should not agree to delay skill England -- Skills England's creation. IfATE has not lived up to expectations and that is a barrier to the and subjective.

Nine years ago, the education and skills subcommittee was told that IfATE would be more similar to the bank of England. I think most members here could you -- agree that was not borne out. It was agree that was not borne out. It was an example use in Bill's committee that in last Parliament, I attended meetings of the national shipbuilding skills task force and there was common agreement during that process that between employers and employee representative organisations, the GCSE entry level requirements was a barrier for those employers taking on the young people who were best equipped for those apprenticeships.

That recommendation was blocked from the final report and we were given to understand by DfE ministers. So many over the last few weeks when I have talked to employers and people with direct knowledge of the skill system, they have underlined or stressed some of the frustrations that existed within the Trailblazer employer organisations, within the democracy of IfATE, -- bureaucracy of IfATE, that some would be delayed or disregarded by some of the route panels made up of employers who did not necessarily share that expertise in a particular industry.

It is important to reduce some of that bureaucracy so the Bills effect of removing a requirement for a regular review of an apprentice standard practice every few years is a sensible change. There are 658 live apprenticeships listed on the IfATE website. That implies 219 reviews every year or four per week read we are entitled to question how effective those reviews can be given IfATE's current level of resources. If I may list one more example of where the current system is going where the current system is going wrong.

The send teaching assistants and apprenticeship standard which was discussed in the course of the last Parliament and formally created in this one lists a very large number of organisations that contributed to the design of that standard. The overwhelming majority are employers, and employers need to be represented. Only one trade union was represented and question why that was the case. But not a single organisation or other group which exists to represent the needs of those young people were drawn into the creation of that standard.

We are entitled to ask whether that is the right approach and in the discussions that led up to the creation of that standard. In practice, it was heavily DfE guided. We are entitled to question the independence of the current system We spoke in the committee, making a serious point about the history of skills education in this country and there have been a serious number of attempts to create skills orders to serve government's policy. I was interested in preparation for this debate to note that when the van Conservative Minister for Employment, Morse Macmillan, 1972 announced the creation of one of the four runners of this body, the Manpower services division, he said as skills to embody or to have direct responsibility to the Mr -- Minister and Department of the day.

I think is relevant to policy development in this area, that in establishing that body, he sought the input and representation of employees as well as employers through that process. At this point, have like to draw attention to my declaration and register of interest, men measure to -- membership and the construction of trade unions. I want to return to reassurance a minister made to the committee's members in respect of implications of cause 10 of the bill where she clarified nothing in those powers could override the constitutions of the construction industry training Board and the engineering construction industry training Board.

The ITP's have a long history in skills training that I hope will be revisited by this government as it addresses some of the very challenging skills programs that will be needed to deliver the transition in energy. Arguably one of the most successful skills, mastering program that has existed underpinned the transition from town gas to natural gas in the 1960s and 1970s overseen by the gas industry training Board, perhaps we could do with that body being recreated. But one of the very important points about the program which survived multiple changes in government and delivered the transition before time and under budget was the trade unions had very healthy involvement including the general and municipal workers unit, which had role on the curriculum that was overseen by that body.

Over time, the trade units have been squeezed off the boards of both the CATV and EC ITP, remaining industrial training boards which was contrary to the original intentions of Parliament when the legislation underpinned those parties was originally cared. I hope in the course of continued policy developed into this area that this government will look at this issue because, as ministers have said, employee forces will be represented through Skills England. I hope that can be the case for the remaining training boards as for the remaining training boards as well.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is vital that the next generation of workers have the necessary skills to meet the industrial challenges we face, whether it is constructing new homes, developing in the structure, or meeting our environmental targets. But most importantly, we must ensure that the next generation of young people are provided with the skills and opportunities to develop their potential and pursue their ambitions and doubt be glad to join my colleagues in voting against

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the elements in front of us tonight. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. If I may, I will start by joining my colleagues on the side of joining my colleagues on the side of the House in my opposition to new clause 1, 4 and 6. As well-meaning as they may be I'm impatient for as they may be I'm impatient for change, Stoke-on-Trent is one of the highest rates of youth disengagement highest rates of youth disengagement in the country. The yellow spot in the middle of the Midlands, we have the middle of the Midlands, we have one of the highest numbers of workers in the country who have no
20:06
Gareth Snell Portrait Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )
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form of formal qualification whatsoever and are young people tend whatsoever and are young people tend to find themselves unable to access any form of training or support they any form of training or support they need in order to make a future career for themselves. I would just like to do, interest as a governor like to do, interest as a governor of the Stoke-on-Trent College that we offer T levels and much like my friend from Chesterfield I do not have an apprentice in my office but have an apprentice in my office but as of next week a T level student will be placed there for 18 months to help deliver their investment.

My to help deliver their investment. My impatient stem from the fact that the necessaries the diffusion of the skills in the city I live in to make sure the next generation has them is to make sure that is the only way I can see we can fulfil our desire and ambition to rebuild our own economy and found ourselves in a situation we can attract higher quality jobs to the city, we can attract well- paid, long-term jobs that mean that we can earn higher wages and dig ourselves out of the economic troubles that my city find ourselves in.

That's not something I think or expect any government should come over the hill with a sack of cash to say "Here you go." part of this is upon ourselves to do that and by matching up the skills that we have, the skills we need in this city to do the jobs of today but that future jobs of tomorrow is really important. The local skills improvement partnership that has been put together by the Chamber of Commerce with colleges have gone some way to achieving that, but as always it's a bit like wading through something because you get to where you think you're going to be at all.

There's something that appears to make it more difficult and all the sudden the people that struggle with that are in the open so anything that seems to delay the advancement of this bill such as new clause in row one, 4 6 will not get my support this evening. I do, however, which to spend if I can, a few minutes of my own new clause 2 which was a probing and that that was not dated because frustration or division. I'm not seeking to test the Houses opinion on it but I do think it's important when we are considering what apprenticeships look like in the future and what they mean for cities like Stoke-on- Trent, those level VII apprenticeships funded by the apprenticeship levy are genuinely an important part of the educational offer on, available to young people in my constituency.

Before last week, I was at a DJ H accountants in Stoke-on-Trent. There is a vacant regional player. -- significant regional player. They are training their own generation of accountants at level VII using the apprenticeship levy that otherwise would disappear into the Treasury. They explained to me quite simply, and I agree with them, if it was not for, they simply would not have the available cash to fund the quantity of training courses that they train through their own means.

The apprenticeship levy allows them to grow a group of young people into chartered accountants and the young chartered accountants and the young people, these are not people in the maid or tail end of their careers looking for a final bump, these are young people coming in who have done the basic accounting skills and had their eyes firmly set on a chartered accountancy qualification. The levy was allowing them to do that and I said to the young people book or where are you from?" is backing them to be from the city as they all were.

I asked them why they wanted to work and they all want to stay in Stoke-on-Trent in practice the craft that they had been learning. An economic benefit of that to my city is that if it was not for the ability of the company to train to a level VII using the partnership levy as the basis for the funding, they would have to import that Labour from neighbouring areas so somebody who already had the little seven qualification or had been trying to simmer us through company that afforded would come into Stoke-on- Trent and do the level VII job, they would take and attract little seven equivalent salary and take it back to where they actually live.

And that means that the level VII salaries that those young people are going to earn in Stoke-on-Trent that they will spend in Stoke-on-Trent would end up migrating to other slightly more affluent and wealthy places in the Midlands and candidly there are many more wealthy places than Stoke-on-Trent. The economic damage that could be done by turning off the partnership levy or even the skills and gruffly from level VII apprenticeships could mean places like Stoke-on-Trent that already suffer with ingrained regional inequalities simply see that being further ingrained into our local economy because the people that have those skills travel into do that work or work from home, the money.

If the city, and suddenly gets spent in local communities. There is also, Madam Deputy Speaker, the message we are sending to our young people in the city that if those little seven qualifications are not available to Will not likely have the means to pay for the level VII qualification themselves, having the little seven qualification in Stoke-on-Trent is quite a rarity. You're more likely to find somebody with low qualifications than a Masters level or equivalent. The moment I put down to the bill today was a hook to allow this consideration to be taken away by the Minister.

Because I do not believe for one second that it is the determination of the government to artificially steamy or The aspirations -- or All the aspirations of students in Stoke- on-Trent. I appreciate there are concerns in the levy not being used for its intended purpose for taking people through higher level qualifications who already have a career built behind them and there are organisations and companies that have done that because residents and the money to the Treasury they sought to upskill their own workers and I understand why that is something this government wants to get tough on because that is not what the intention is for.

But the level VII learners that I have met are all young, there are people who have a clear idea of the path and the trajectory they want to take and this simply makes it more viable and likely to achieve in an economically depressed place like Stoke-on-Trent. The other side of it, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the University of Staffordshire, 95 percent of its apprenticeships are over six, five percent level VII. They provide little seven training for the Ministry of Defence and number of public services.

Some of that is funded by the apprenticeship levy. That is valuable to deliver that training for people who go back to the public centre to make it more efficient and crackdown on waste and deliver on those skills that we as a nation are determining that we need. Some of that will undoubtedly lead to be looked at as we are going for because they need to be people that have the level VII qualifications in the defence sector, in the manufacturing companies, in the electrical and chemical engineering companies who ordinarily in situations, places like Stoke-on- Trent, companies will not have the capital or cash to that and only by drawing down from the partnership levy will they be able to train people hoping to do those jobs and we have not training people to do those jobs the investment, from governments will not be felt in places like Stoke-on-Trent.

That is already quite clear in my city and it becomes more entrenched. And I want to end by saying the honourable gentleman from Hartford Stockford said at the finding your career and that is what I think all of us want for young people in our communities and those learners in my own city. But that career should take them as far as they want to go. The career should take them if they want to up to a level VII qualification that allows them to build a life and a career and job that they enjoy and are happy in doing.

My concern is the unintended consequence of a government decision to say that level VII qualifications will no longer be available from the partnership levy will mean that in cities like mine, that aspiration is capped. That omission is capped because the cash and capital is not there. -- ambition. They have no support for delaying the parties support for delaying the parties opposite and have no intention for doing anything with this and other

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than sitting down in a moment, I do hope -- Here, here. I do hope the Minister will take back some of the concerns I have back some of the concerns I have raised this evening to see whether or not there is a way of seeing that in the future, maybe through devolution deals or organisation or the my oral strategic authorities, certain areas will be able to continue with the level VII funding, funding for love. Then qualifications we so desperately
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David Pinto-Duschinsky Portrait David Pinto-Duschinsky MP (Hendon, Labour)
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need.

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I rise to speak against clause 1 and 4 in the mid six. The truth is we cannot have any more dither and we cannot have any more dither and delay. -- amended. Our starting delay. -- amended. Our starting point must be we are in a skills crisis and one that lies at the feet of the party opposite. 26 years ago, of the party opposite. 26 years ago, of the party opposite. 26 years ago, Clearing up the mess that the Clearing up the mess that the previous government left in the skill system.

Fast forward of 1/4 of a century and we find the Labour government having to clear up the mess in skills that the party opposite ( the facts are stark. Today, only 10% of all adults hold A-level IV or five qualification, versus 20% in Germany and 24% in Canada. 26% of the workforce are underqualified for their jobs versus underqualified for their jobs versus 18% as the OCD average. What's more, the UK has higher skills inequalities and other equivalent countries. Adults in the West Midlands are three times more likely to lack basic qualifications at GCSE level than those in London.

If we reach German levels, an extra 290,000 people in the West Midlands would have higher level qualifications. While 71% of Londoners look set to have higher education by 2035, in Hull, the figure is only 29%. The system is not just struggling to provide our people with the skills they need, it is failing to provide employers with the skills they need to drive our growth. One third of UK vacancies in 2022 were down to skills shortages. 92% of employers cited digital skills as key for their businesses and yet 7.5 million working age adults like them.

-- lack them. The party opposite is letting down our people and holding back our economy. The member opposite talked about what is needed. Let me tell you what is needed. We need a more strategic approach that identifies skill gaps and flexibly coordinates the government response to address them. It needs to be integrated and it needs to take a more strategic view. This is exactly what Skills England does. Skills England has already started its work publishing its first report and will issue announcements later this year to support the industrial strategy.

It will provide the key ingredient in delivering that strategy and unlock skills that employers need. It already exists in shadow form. Skills England is ready to go. Businesses are crying out for it. Yet what we have heard today are two suggestions. The first, despite that, we should delay further. For six months in the case of new close for. For at least a year if not longer in the case of amendment six. To those proposing this, I say simply this, enough debate.

We need to get on with the job. What you are proposing is not constructive and will simply slow the process of turning this country's skill gaps down. Skills England and should jointly run together, in some cases, with conflicting remits. This will only create chaos with the different organisations stepping on each other's feet. Different remits will dilute the impact of the industrial strategy. Given all that he has proposed, the risk is that his proposals will lead, as my honourable friend pointed out, to the recreation of the failed organisation by the back door.

Madame Tekki speaker, it is time to put an end to this blocking. Skills England was in the government's manifesto. The public voted for change and Skills England is a key part of delivering it. Let's end the delays, defeatist amendments -- defeat these amendments and get on with the task of delivering for the British people.
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Neil O'Brien Portrait Neil O'Brien MP (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston, Conservative)
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Thank you. I find myself incomplete agreement with the honourable member for mid Cambridgeshire. Amendments four and six are in the same spirit. There were good reasons why standard- setting was put closer to employers and now government are bringing it closer to the Department. Alongside other changes, that risks damaging the status of these qualifications which we have been working to build up. The budget was bad for employment and will make it less likely that employers will take on apprentices, but rather than addressing this, the government is reorganising.

The government's own recent impact assessment says that the reorganisation will lead to a delay and a drop in apprenticeships. Hence our amendments this evening. For decades, politicians have said they want to make apprenticeships more prestigious. On average, twice as many people start apprenticeships each year under the previous government. But prior apparent -- higher apprenticeships went from 3,000 in 2010 to 273,000 last year. A huge increase. We increase the quality of apprenticeships as well which is much needed and has been alluded to by my honourable friend from East Hampshire.

People who were on an apprenticeship for more than a year were not even aware that they were on an apprenticeship and the skills learned were creating a copy of coffee which... And it allowed employers to pay a lower wage. The government have cut the length of an apprenticeship to eight months. They are eroding that employer ownership that we worked to build up. While we grew higher apprenticeships, they are about to abolish most level VII apprenticeships. That is a taste of what is to come if our amendments are not accepted tonight.

The government are doing this because they promised the employers could take 50% of levy funds and spend them on other things. They say this commitment is currently being reviewed, but on 9 December, the Secretary of State said that the government was still fully committed to 50% flexibility for employers. When I asked the Minister in Bill committee whether this was still a policy, she said she would have to get back to me. And as the skills minister said it will all depend on the outcome of spending review period now businesses are starting to raise the alarm.

The British Chamber of Commerce have said that a lack of clarity about the levy is creating fresh uncertainty and is worrying and destabilising, leading to firms pausing hiring of apprenticeships per period spending has increased in real terms by about one quarter from two-2.5 billion proved so moving that money out of apprenticeships would lead to a drop in the number of apprenticeships. In a written answer to me, ministers have to perm -- confirmed that. They won't publish it, we know why that is.

From April 16-21,... We need to build on that and cut bureaucracy for small businesses but the government's answer is different. They plan to abolish the highest level friendships and redistribute the money. I thought the brilliance tree -- speech by the honourable member for Stoke-on-Trent Central was so right. I won't be as articulate as he was but I will try to add to the points made and I hope the Minister will listen to his wise colleague on this. This is a trial run of what it will be like as ministers take more control with this bill and they are warning it is a big mistake.

At Sheffield Hallam university it says that the level VII cuts will disproportionately affect services. They are meeting vital skills gaps, these are NHS workers, civil servants and local authority employees. Higher -- level VII apprenticeships are central to the NHS long-term workforce plan. Last year, we saw the government's disappointing decision to cancel the level VII Doctor apprenticeships, meaning there will be a shortfall of about 2,000 medical places a year. Students who already started on that route will be left in limbo.

The government will now do something similar to nurses as part of level VII cuts. The NHS plan has 50,000 nurses coming through the apprentice route. You expect about 11,000 of those nurses to be coming via level VII apprenticeships. If the government gets rid of them, that is a huge hole in the NHS plan. Local government makes huge use of the level VII apprenticeships including the extra town planning that the government says are needed to deliver on housing targets. Deborah Johnson at South Bank University says over half the employers they work with our local authorities.

Our apprentices allow councils to deliver projects in the wake of mandatory housing targets. The suggestion that local authorities should pay for the apprenticeships themselves is fanciful. Professions are also worried. The Institute of chartered accountants says that axing level VII apprentice will lead to work leaving the UK. Organisations are likely to turn to offshore to replace training roles. In some cases it would lead to them being outside this country altogether. That's why the campaign for learning called for skills immigration work assessor that we don't simply go from investing in British workers to importing workers from other countries.

The chartered Management Institute says cutting funding for level VII apprenticeships would create -- risk creating gaps in leadership when they are needed most. I was contacted personally by several firms worrying about the abolition of the solicitors apprenticeship. At well solicitors say reducing funding for level VII apprentices runs the risk of removing opportunities into professions. Apprenticeships help breakdown barriers to all career path that can be inaccessible to young people without them. As well as sitting employers, on the other side of the ledger,, axing level VII will be destabilising for universities, for providers.

It will hurt those institutions that have tried to the right thing. 66 universities now deliver A-level VII and for a prestigious institution like Cranfield, they will be hugely exposed if the government wields the axe and the way they are planning to. Other institutions like the open University, University of West London are exposed as well. We think culling level VII is a big mistake. They are vital across the public sector and above all, they are the capstone of a drive to make the institution more prestigious.

British Airways carried on running the Concord because of the halo effect. It change the way they were seen. Level VII apprenticeships at the top of the ladder, they create a halo effect around apprenticeships and that is why we should not get rid of them. It was crystal-clear from the Minister's reply is in the Bill committee that the government are keeping up -- open the option to take an axe to level VI apprenticeships as well which will make that mistake bigger and will not drive money towards L2 and L3.

The other day we learned that DfE are to cut the adult skills budget, something they criticised the last government for and are now doing themselves. That was overshadowed by the welfare reform paper which mentioned training, ironically, 18 times. At committee stage, the Minister refused to confirm whether the government will provide the extra 10% funding to get T levels going even though providers are crying out for clarity on that. So many employees would like the certainty that comes with a degree of independence from politics.

Wise people on the Labour benches to. Lord Blunkett said that when two Lord Blunkett said that when two years ago there was a precursor to Skills England, we never envisioned that an agency in site governments would take on the accreditation of the relevant sectors standard. Skills England has no legislative backing but is down merely to the changing force -- face of ministerial employment -- appointments... Even those involved in dreaming up Skills England have argued why it needs to be independent.

Likewise, employer bodies have argued it should be more independent. The voter industry, the skills administration, and as Lord Knight pointed out, the problem some of us have is it feels like the second half is missing. That is the establishment of Skills England as a statutory body. The originally drafted version didn't even mention Skills England. As another Labour peer has pointed out, an appropriate move from where we are would be to establish a regulatory body. That is why our amendment would make the bill actually do what the government tries to pretend it does and set up Skills England, which was the intent of many people on the Labour side.

Giving all the appointments the government is creating, it says on the impact assessment, the transfer of functions that DfE could potentially cause a temporary slowdown in the growth rate of education courses due to potential delays in the approvals process resulting from the bill. This means disproportionately impact disadvantaged learners to rely more heavily on these pathways. There you have it. Employers and educators criticising the uncertainty that the government is creating. Labour peers arguing that Skills England should be independent but the government ignoring them.

Employers arguing against axing... Yet more centralisation, no clear vision. It centralisation, no clear vision. It
20:31
Janet Daby Portrait Janet Daby MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Lewisham East, Labour)
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank honourable friends and members for their constructive engagement throughout this debate. However, listening to the shadow minister, one with the this is all doom and gloom! It is actually a new season of growth and skills. We are springing into action, and I encourage the honourable member not to be stuck in the past. As I've said before, including when we discussed the bill in detail at the committee and we have said it is very wonderful to hear from other members about the passion across this House for improving our school system.

It is clear we all share a desire to better meet the needs, the skill needs of employers and indeed, learners. This government is determined to unlock growth. We are determined to spread opportunity, and this bill will help us to deliver the change that we absolutely need to see. And I will start by speaking to the new clauses in the amendment that has been the subject of the debate this evening before touching on the Avenue causes and amendments tabled by honourable members.



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Giving way. I wondered if she

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Giving way. I wondered if she could explain to the House in answer to the points raised by the member for Stoke-on-Trent Central, the rational behind eliminating level VII apprenticeships.

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VII apprenticeships. First of all, I would like to say if you are just some of the if you are just some of the honourable member would give me a bit more time, I would be able to elaborate and respond to members as elaborate and respond to members as we go. And in particular, with the we go. And in particular, with the points he has made, information will be coming but as I've said I will respond to that. Turning to new clauses 1 through four which relate to the creation of Skills England and its legal status.

New clause 1 tip by the honourable member would require the Secretary of State to the draft proposals for a new executive agency to be known as Skills England within six months. New clause 4 table by the honourable Will allow the state to establish Gilles England as a steady door body. Our position that we establish Skills England as an executive agency remains extremely clear. Entirely in keeping with the usual process for establishing arm's- length bodies. -- Skills England. It is complying with the robust and vigorous process that supplies the cross government establishing executive agencies.

The executive agency model balances operational independence with proximity to government. This is needed to inform policy and support delivery of the government's mission. The model enables us to move quickly, which is vital given the scale and urgency of the skills, challenges we face. The government has committed to review Skills England between 18 to 24 months after it is set up, and this will include an assessment of whether the executive agency model is enabling Skills England to deliver its objectives.

This is consistent with good practice. Skills will power this mission driven government and our plan for change. Our approach means we can get on with the job at hand, fixing the skill system, helping more people get the training they need to build our homes, power our towns and

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city with clean energy and master new digital technologies. I think you further visit in the

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I think you further visit in the best town in England, her last week where she agreed this bill will benefit young people and given the

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skills they need in my constituency. Absolutely agree with my honourable Friend that this will help young people gain the skills help young people gain the skills they need in his wonderful constituency and many of our own as well. Turning to an end six tabled by the honourable number, this would frustrate the complete establishment of Skills England by delaying the transfer functions as set out in this bill for a full year. Members of how the government set out already that delay is not an option.

This is been repeatedly said so many times that they should not just take my word for it. Technology training provides this is a pivotal moment for shaping the skill system to meet the U.K.'s industrial and economic needs. And they are right. The complex and fragmented nature of the complex and fragmented nature of the skill system is contributing to critical skill gaps in our economy today. Opportunities are being missed today. Growth is being held back by a lack of skills today.

And we cannot afford to be sluggish in our pursuit of a more joined up, data driven approach. The first set of conditions statistics under the new Labour government saw an increase of start participation and achievement compared to the same period under the Tories in 2023. The honourable members constituency, when they were in government, his own constituency fell by 13 percent. Almost 100 fewer people starting a Almost 100 fewer people starting a person -- apprenticeships.

This marked apprenticeship week with a set of reforms going further and faster on growth under his government, one third of vacancies were due to the lack of skills. But we will press on. Furthermore, the British Chambers of commerce has urged us to work at pace to establish Skills England and we are doing exactly that. Since being set doing exactly that. Since being set up, Skills England has got to work. It has got to work by identifying skills gaps in the economy and building relationships with strategic authorities, employers and other groups.

Indeed, Skills England's work with strategic authorities and other forms of regional governments as well as regional organisations to ensure that regional and national skills needs are met. In line with the forthcoming industrial strategy, skills and when will work closely with the industrial strategy Council so that we have the skilled workforce needed to deliver a clear, long-term plan for the future economy and the migration advisory committee to ensure growing the domestic skills pipeline reduces our reliance on overseas workers.

Our constituents will not thank us for sticking in the slow lane. There is no need to wait another year, and we are ready to go. Turning to new are ready to go. Turning to new clause 2 and 3, these new clauses will impose a duty on the Secretary of State to publish within one year of Royal assent reports in the impact of T levels and higher education. Members will be aware we have already included in the bill a duty for the Secretary of State to report and functions transferred from IfATE that will be exercised by Skills England, including the impact on technical education and apprenticeships.

These reports will need to be published not after one year, but after six months which is much sooner. We have therefore ready made commitments to transfer and say -- transparency on the face of the bill, commitment that was welcomed by stakeholders including the Association of colleges in their written evidence of the stage of this bill. We all agree the T levels and higher education are central to fixing our school challenges. And as I have made clear at the committee stage, Skills England six months report would include necessary information on T levels as well as technical education and apprenticeships delivered in higher education settings.

The party opposite has argued that we must avoid Skills England being over looked. We should prevent spreading more and more reports covering the same issues. Turning out to amendments one and two. Tabled honourable friend the Stoke-on-Trent Central and Harborough, Woodley and Winston respectively. These amendments would place additional requirements and the Secretary of State. This time as relates to degree apprenticeships. As with T levels and higher education, the report the government has committed to provide a six months will necessarily include information on apprenticeships including degree apprenticeships.

In one specifically about funding for these apprenticeships, we are setting Skills England up to build the evidence and partnership needs to deliver change but policy and funding decisions on skills provisions will not sit with Skills England, they will continue to sit with the Secretary of State. This is entirely right and appropriate. Nothing in this bill changers that, and we will setup more information on level VII apprenticeships in June course. -- due course.

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I thank the Minister for giving way. The report comes out will way. The report comes out will include aspects of the implications include aspects of the implications for higher degree apprenticeships and the funding decisions. Soberly and the funding decisions. Soberly with the Department as it should be. Can she give me a confirmation that Can she give me a confirmation that the content of the report will reference the funding decisions made reference the funding decisions made by the Secretary of State so we can see whether correlation and causation is for the impact that

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these decisions have? Minister, I absolutely hear my honourable friend and his concern for level VII and I do not want to for level VII and I do not want to stray away from the bill and what stray away from the bill and what this bill is seeking to achieve. But what I will say to my honourable what I will say to my honourable Friend is that I would be very happy to look at this further with him and to get back but I will also say, on to get back but I will also say, on Sunday, it is eight years since the Sunday, it is eight years since the levy was introduced and only now under a Labour government are employees getting the facts abilities have been crying out for.

Flexibility is responding to industry needs, massive English recognising, the need of the job and getting young people a foot in the door to start good careers. In nine months, this Labour government is cutting through red tape, driving the skills our employees need, showing that Labour is the party of business, reforming apprenticeships, tilting the system towards young people, in the most need of developing the skills and getting a careers ladder for young people. Turning to amendments three and Again, raised by the honourable member for Harborough, with the end Winston, these limits would create a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to have due regard to the reasonable requirements for individuals when consider to approve a standard or assessment plan with they've been developed by a group of persons.

As I made clear, my response to the honourable member at committee, the Secretary of State is already subject to a general public law duty requires that they take into account all relevant considerations in making decisions related to the functions for which they are responsible. There is therefore already a requirement that when executing the functions described in this bill, the Secretary of State considers and balances the needs of different users of the system, in fact the public law duty is broader than the factors listed in the proposed amendments.

It includes, for example, consideration of value for money and quality. Turning lastly to Amendment 4 which was raised by the honourable member, it is critical that technical qualifications and apprenticeships reflect the needs for employers and they have confidence in them. Employees tell us speed and looks ability or crucial if we are to work together more effectively to plug skills gaps. The precise make up of a group of persons is not currently mandated in legislation, flexibility as necessary to ensure the membership of every group reflects the specific factors relevant to an occupation.

Specified on the face of the bill that a group must always include a particular voice would introduce new and unnecessary restraints on the structure of groups. To conclude, this government is committed to transforming the skill system so we can deliver the highly skilled workforce our country needs. Skills will have a focus on delivering our mission and that is why this government's first piece of educational legislation is paving the way for Skills England to identify and fill skills gaps.

Thank

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He the question is the new clause 1B read a second time. As many as 1B read a second time. As many as are of that opinion say I of the
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None Portrait Division
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are of that opinion say I of the country now? Division! Clear the

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The The question The question is The question is that The question is that new

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The question is that new clause The question is that new clause 1 read a second time. As many of that read a second time. As many of that opinion say I to the country now? opinion say I to the country now? The tellers for the ayes are... The tellers for the noes Vicky Foxcroft tellers for the noes Vicky Foxcroft Order. Order. Order. The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right, The ayes to the right, 168.

The ayes to the right, 168. The The ayes to the right, 168. The noes The ayes to the right, 168. The noes

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The ayes to the right were 168. The noes to the left, 302. So the noes habit. The noes have it. noes habit. The noes have it. New clause 4 has been selected for separate decision. I call Neil separate decision. I call Neil O'Brien to move new clause 4 O'Brien to move new clause 4 formally. The question is that new clause 4 we read a second time. As many as are of that opinion say I.

Of the country, now. Division. Clear The The question The question is The question is that The question is that new The question is that new clause The question is that new clause 4 The question is that new clause 4 be added to the bill. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Tellers for the ayes are David Simmonds and Ben Obese- Jecty. Tellers for the noes, Vicky

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Lock the Lock the doors.

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Order Order order.

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Order order. The ayes to the right were 167,

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the noes to the left, 306. The ayes to the right 167. The

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The ayes to the right 167. The noes to the left were 306. So the noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock. Order order. And the order of the House on the 25th of, I must now put the question as necessary to bring proceedings on consideration to a conclusion. Amendment six has been selected for separate decision. I called Neil O'Brien to move the amendment formally. The question is that amendment six you made. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Division! The The question The question is The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the order paper.

As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Tellers for the ayes David Simmonds and Ben Obese-Jecty first tellers for the noes Vicky Foxcroft
21:24
Janet Daby Portrait Janet Daby MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Lewisham East, Labour)
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Order,

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The ninth success, the left 035

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The ninth success, the left 035 -- the nine left 6666

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The nose to the left, 305. So

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The nose to the left, 305. So noes the have it. Consideration noes the have it. Consideration completed. Minister to move third

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reading. Madame Speaker, I now bagged that

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Madame Speaker, I now bagged that the bill be read the third. Time we are on a mission to deliver strong are on a mission to deliver strong economic growth, and break down the barriers for opportunity they will pare the mission gravamen government pare the mission gravamen government and the plan for change. Let me start by thanking members of the House for the contributions, especially members of the bill committee for their scrutiny. And I committee for their scrutiny. And I want to thank the cheques, the honourable chair for Christ Church, and right side and Hillsboro.

And to think my honourable friends spending more and North Shire of North in their crucial work for guiding the work in the Commons and committee stages. The bill has now benefited from scrutiny in both this House and the other place, and I welcome the broad support of the creation of Skills England and its work! It is clear that we are united in our recognition to develop a world leading approach to skills. This is vital if we are to build a high skilled workforce to meet today's challenges and grasp tomorrow's opportunities.

We need skills to get Britain building, we need skills to deliver energy security, and we need skills to advance AI and to increase productivity! We need to improve the quality and availability of training. This will give people of all backgrounds from across the country the power to seize the opportunity and improve their lives and their families lives. That is why this Labour government's very first piece of education legislation will pave the way for Skills
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None Portrait Division
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The question is will the bill be ready?

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Courts from employers, those in education, and those in public service have been warned about service have been warned about decisions the government is making. The government has decided not to listen to the wise education Minister on their side, but I hope they will listen to the central because they are at risk of making a huge mistake which they will live to huge mistake which they will live to regret in the future. So they are not listening to their own members

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this evening, but I hope they will in the future! It will now be read the third time, as many who say "Ay", say Eyes Eyes on Eyes on the Eyes on the Order Eyes on the Order Paper's, Eyes on the Order Paper's, as Eyes on the Order Paper's, as many that say I must say I! Those who say no, say no. And this is the Lock the Lock the doors.

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Order Order order.

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Order order.

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Order order. The ayes to the right, 304. The noes to the left, 62.

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noes to the left, 62. The ayes to the right, 304. The noes to the left, 62. The ayes have noes to the left, 62. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock. That concludes that business. I now go to motion number three on agriculture, ministered to move? The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Division! Clear The The question The question is The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the order paper.

As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." Tellers for the ayes are Gen Kitchen and Vicky Foxcroft. Tellers for the noes Rebecca Paul and Jerome

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Open Open the Open the doors Open the doors.

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Order,

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Order, order Order, order.

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Order, order. The eyes to the right to my 296. The nose to the left, 164.

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The eyes to the right to my 296.
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21:52
None Portrait Adjournment: Funding for the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme and increasing capacity on the Brighton Mainline
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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, I'm grateful to raise this important I'm grateful to raise this important issue in the House. I know at this issue in the House. I know at this time on a Monday, it is not the most exciting way to spend an evening. exciting way to spend an evening. But this causes not just about providing vital access to two of the providing vital access to two of the busiest transitions in the country, and it is not just about bringing investment to one of the UK's investment to one of the UK's biggest areas, it is about providing growth and transport lengths right across the Southeast.

Carls as a network rail plan to add on to the most complex part of Britain's most critical airlines, the Brighton Main Line. The lack of complexity and the series of conjunctions, the southmost Triangle, makes those on the south line including those for the cabin experience and the widen East express has been prone to delays and cancellations. At the time reporting these plans, the realm reported that it was the lowest of any main route, with macaroon being one of the main causes.

And it marks 14 1/2 new homes and 20,000 new jobs by 2021. Extensive housing delivery in the Brighton region and between Hoshi and the south coast. And with one runway, that affected growth by 50 % .--58 %. There is no guarantee to meet journey times for Brighton lines in the future because the maximum amount of trains is 17 per hour, and in 2019 the service was running at maximum capacity. Is now almost back to the pre-pandemic levels with 72 trains being scheduled.



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With the area remodelling scheme, Jim is there anything you would like to mention?

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It is great that you are bringing this forward! I spoke to her this forward! I spoke to her beforehand in order to help her with my small confidence, so years of my small confidence, so years of spending has left the bus service and rail service drowning in repair and rail service drowning in repair work, and if the government ever wishes to have thriving public trust petition service outside of London petition service outside of London city, local authorities must have a funding to fix the services! Instead of shaking enabled being granted pennies as is the current situation.

Thank you.

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Thank you gentlemen, I do agree long-term, sustainable function -- long-term, sustainable function -- funding is the only way we can have funding is the only way we can have improvements. Britain's 21st most used station, adding two new platforms and facilities for passengers and better connexions to passengers and better connexions to local transport networks. It also provides an opportunity to modernise provides an opportunity to modernise the junction, Britain's 117 the most used station, by adding a footbridge with a lift so we can finally have step free access to this much loved local transport hub.

Despite stakeholders and passengers showing 90 % of respondents were in favour of cars, in 2020 the government shelves these plans and turned their back on economic growth as across the Southeast. However, as passengers on the bright mainline continue to recover post pandemic, the Eastern station is back up to almost where they were pre-pandemic levels, and backup to 92 % at the Gavin Airport station when compared to the same.. --sam period. The need to look --same.

At the cause is even more important because it is the single biggest runway airport and the gap to the airport on the vectorial route being the seventh biggest for passengers nationally, when you take out the Elizabeth extension even without 1/7 runway, the demand for trained services in Gavin are already reaching capacity. The expansion creating 14,000 new jobs and generating an estimated 1 billion pounds a year for the British copy has been well- documented, and the government has outlined that we would need to see public transport increase from the current 44 % to 54 %.

This is not to argument M Speaker that this is not difficult, so further depart to get off the ground could not only hold back economic growth for the coaster capital region, a region estimated to be the seventh-largest regional economy in the country, but it could hold back economic growth for our country! In closing Madame Speaker, I believe the government has rightly stated its intention to guard every corner of this country. And, yes sure?

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Thank you Madame Speaker. She makes a great case, as she outlines makes a great case, as she outlines it does not just affect her. I believe I have seen the honourable member on the train on the way to this place. Does she agree with me this place. Does she agree with me that public transport, the train in particular, can be impacted by the reliability and speed of the reliability and speed of the service? And by fixing this could increase the demand for the train increase the demand for the train service in our area? And this could be a good thing not just for the economy but the environment as well.



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I agree, when people think the train is not reliable and will not come when they needed to they will come when they needed to they will try other routes. So I think by improving the public transportation improving the public transportation it will increase the use of it even it will increase the use of it even beyond pre-pandemic levels. We will not be bound by the boundaries of our city, so I urge the Minister to our city, so I urge the Minister to consider the impact that the cards can have on our coastal committees, what this can do for cars outside of London, and what it can do for my part of outer south are in London! Southern.

London because Madame Speaker, the bright line is 15 % higher than what it would be without. It this is not just good for the whole of the Southeast, it is good for our whole country! --

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Without it. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. First I want to think my honourable friend for securing this debate and allowing us to consider this critical part of the infrastructure. critical part of the infrastructure. As you outlined, the Brighton Main Line is a heart that carries Line is a heart that carries millions of passengers every year.
21:59
Simon Lightwood Portrait Simon Lightwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Wakefield and Rothwell, Labour )
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millions of passengers every year. It is a gateway for those in our country and it provides a gate link into UK's second busiest airport, Gatwick. Is a transport hub dividing links to services across Sussex, as well as the London troubling. Line facilitates billions of pounds of economic activity every year, and they link businesses to thrive and committees to stay connected. -- they allow. This is substantiated in what we have seen in the past month the 10 billion pound program transformed travel in northern London, delivering faster, more reliable and frequent journeys were passengers.

There was fleet of 7,000 trains introduced to the Brighton Main Line, Bradley increasing capacity and improving the viability of the service. -- broadly. They were entirely rebuilt, and the link

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to the line$$JOIN... Order, order! The question is

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Order, order! The question is Indeed the Thameslink program also established new direct also established new direct connections to Peterborough and Cambridge. The £250 million was recently invested in upgrading Gatwick Airport station, delivering a new or accessible station concourse, doubling the space for passengers...

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Very grateful. Indeed in Gatwick's case, a very large proportion of that was paid for directly by the airport itself directly by the airport itself rather than DfT. The purpose of this debate is really that the capacity on the line or shortly after a decade will be completely full so any train leaving Brighton will any train leaving Brighton will already be full by the time it reaches my constituency. Not a single passage from Gatwick will be able to get on with our improvements and we are running out of time to

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and we are running out of time to secure the change necessary to avoid this outcome. I thank for his intervention. An

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I thank for his intervention. An application for a development consent order has been made by Gatwick Airport Ltd to bring their existing northern runway into use. Routine use alongside their main runway. I understand Gatwick Airport Ltd have committed to provide £10 million real enhancement fund to support improvements to the network required to accommodate additional passengers and mitigate the impacts the performance. As I said over £250 million was recently invested in upgrading Gatwick Airport station, delivering a new more accessible station concourse, doubling the space for passengers, improving the reliability of trains calling the station and ensuring the station is a fitting gateway to the UK.

Bless you. For too many years, Gatwick station has been a major bottleneck on the Brighton Main Line due to the extended time passengers need to board and alight trains. Since the significant expansion of the platform and widening, passengers can board and alight much more quickly, reducing knock-on delays further down the line. As part of the Gatwick upgrade, track layout to the station was remodelled to increase capacity and speed, reducing journey times between Brighton and London by five minutes and improving performance.

I hope my honourable friend will tell her constituents have started to see the direct benefits of these interventions at Gatwick, be it the efficiency of the train service or the ease of which they can start their holidays. Despite these investments, demand and crowding on the line continue to grow up to 2019. A victim of its own success you could say. Before the pandemic, the cars or the Croydon remodelling scheme was rightly identified as a priority scheme to address crowding and provide more capacity on the line.

As my honourable friend outlined, the complex junction at Selhurst and pinch points at East Croydon and Norwood Junction create limits on capacity. The car scheme was developed to address this through significant remodelling of the tracks and rail junctions north East Croydon station and as far as Norwood Junction station area. Cars also envisaged a major redevelopment of the East Croydon station itself. At the time, Network Rail estimated it would take over 10 years to fully deliver the car scheme at the cost of around £2.9 billion.

Delivery would also require significant and ongoing disruption to passengers up and down Brighton Main Line. However the pandemic created significant changes in travel patterns and uncertainty around future demand while at the same time stretching public finances. In response, the previous government took the decision to pause the scheme at Spending Review 2021. New development work despite no developer has been undertaken since that point. In the Spring Statement last week, the Chancellor was clear about the challenges facing our public finances and the steps she has taken to restore stability and support growth.

The ongoing Spending Review is an important part of this process. We are working to carefully assess each element of public spending, including rail investments, ensuring every penny spent support our missions and the plan for growth. Given this process is ongoing, I regret I'm not able to get comment on individual projects get comment on individual projects such as the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme until the Spending Review has concluded in June. I and my department certainly recognise the substantial benefits this program can bring by unlocking developed in Croydon and providing capacity for growth across the coast to capital region.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to restate the offer made by the Secretary of State of transport on Thursday to meet with my honourable friend to discuss cars and the drivers fun investment she has outlined so clearly. However I would remind her of the multibillion pound costs of the scheme and the context of the significant spending challenges the government is facing across a range of public services and ambitions for will continue to work with the rail industry partners, local authorities and stakeholders across the region, exploring opportunities to improve rail services in the south-east and ensure that the Brighton Main Line remains a world-class transport link, one that meets the needs of its passengers and supports economic

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growth. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion say, "Aye." Of the contrary, "No." The ayes have it,
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