Commons Chamber

Tuesday 13th May 2025

(began 4 hours ago)

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None Portrait Q2. What assessment he has made of the potential implications for his policies of the situation in Kashmir. (904073)
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The Foreign Secretary has been clear that it is long-standing policy of British governments that we do not make legal determinations.
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Julian Smith Portrait Rt Hon Sir Julian Smith MP (Skipton and Ripon, Conservative)
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In his role as the usual channels, Roy Stone had the role working for decades the government Chief Whip, Leader of the Opposition, providing advice to both and protecting confidences of both but answering honestly to each. The usual channels is the only rolling government that works both for the government and the opposition and manages the whips office for both. To the British public, seeing adversarial politics and parties in the chamber, Roy and his team organised and coordinated the legislation, the debates, the recesses, the management of relationships between parties for decades.

Woe betide any Chief Whip but try to change boys recess schedule that was almost always in tandem with the Kent school holiday Every political science course in the country should have dedicated modules on the usual channels and on Sir Roy Stone. The voice of dominant and behind-the-scenes role matey one of the most impactful and consequential civil servant of his time. Mr Speaker, in spite of being fair to all sides, he was political to his core. Not least during the Hung Parliament of Brexit and he had a passionate focus on supporting the government to deliver on the referendum and was increasingly frustrated by us politicians, and particularly me, for failing to deliver a meaningful vote.

He loved his central role in this place, and had the respect if not always agreement from everyone, politician, and civil servant alike. Beneath all the stresses and strains of that the stresses and strains of that most demanding period of parliamentary history, love and commitment to his family shone out. His brother who was ill with cancer His brother who was ill with cancer in the Brexit years, his wife, Dawn, and the children, Hannah and Elliott, in particular for Elliott's Elliott, in particular for Elliott's commitment to the RAF.

A patriot at commitment to the RAF. A patriot at work, a pet patriot at home, rest in peace Sir Roy Stone. peace Sir Roy Stone.
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Gavin Williamson Portrait Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. Roy was political to his core, he loved this place more than anyone could possibly imagine. He got quite frustrated with government and Prime Minister's on a very regular basis. I always remember on my first day as Chief Whip arriving in office, and you could just see the look of frustration and irritation. Who on earth are they sent me now? He has never been in the whips office. I remember him sitting me down and explaining that he works for me 51% of the time and for the opposition the other 49% of the time.

I kind of wanted him to shift that style a little bit more in my favour but he was never going to do that. And on rather naively requesting as to what maybe I should read, would it be worth me picking up the skin and may, he looked at me and said, "Chief, only strange people and clerks read Erskine May. " But there was not a page in Erskine May that he did not know. And Roy's time, whether starting as an apprentice in the MoD, working through 10 Downing Street, getting briefings ready for prime ministers, and then going into the whips office, it's all equipped him to understand about raw politics.

As anyone who has been Chief Whip all know, actually Chief Whip's don't whip their party, deputies do for top Chief Whip's have to be there to manage the Prime Minister and the cabinets. You are there to save a government from doing incredibly stupid things to themselves. Every single day, or that was the case in my day. I have a feeling it may be has not changed that much in this time. You will sometimes come into the office and Roy's eyes would roll as he had heard and seen the news of the latest decision that had emanated out of number 10.

But what he would always do, he would sit down with you, talk to the problem and actually give you solutions, give you a potential way out of the awful mess. The message you find yourself in. I particularly recall the day after the 2017 general election. For those who weren't here, it had not gone quite as well as we had hoped. And I walked into the Chief Whip's office and, it was a beautiful office over in Downing Street. And I arrived there, and Roy was good, as good as any man, I won't say the word but it rhymes with clucking.

And he said " You clucking screwed that up didn't you? " What will you that up didn't you? " What will you do? And it was a time when the Prime Minister was in shock are not doing an awful lot and it fell to the whips office to work out how you took things forward. Sitting down with Roy, working out as to how we took it forward, that was what was so essential in terms of putting together a deal with the Democratic Unionist Party to make sure that the honourable member for Islington did not have the opportunity to form a government in 2017.

He was a man that lived and breathed politics. But also a man that cared nothing more than about his family. You would hear him talk with such pride about his daughter at university, about his daughter at university, his son he took to countless events, as he did his swimming, and he got involved in the RAF. But all in all, involved in the RAF. But all in all, Roy was a good friend. Just a few weeks ago, sitting down with him and weeks ago, sitting down with him and having coffee, just talking about his family.

Talking about some of his family. Talking about some of the difficult times but also some of the amazing times. He will be so missed.
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Alistair Carmichael Portrait Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)
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Can I Thank you Mr Speaker for allowing these exceptional but fitting tribute which I'm sure will give some comfort to Sir Roy Stone's wife and family for top it was my privilege to work with him during the first 3 1/2 years of the coalition government. A coalition government or something that had never been done in this country in peacetime. It was something that required the service of not one party but two in the government. And that brought from him a time of change and challenge, these were all challenges that he took incredibly in his stride.

There were many anecdotes I could tell you, and to many who would be involved are still alive. So I fear for all sorts of reasons there are limits to how far one can push Parliamentary privilege. The genius of Sir Roy Stone was that he never betrayed any personal political view of his own. That was how he was able to serve governments of all stripes. The dignity of Parliament and the dignity of the business of government or something that really mattered to him.

It actually was that concern for the dignity that allowed me on only one occasion to see Sir Roy when the mask slipped. It was the early days of the coalition government. The Liberal Democrat whips office was in the business of babysitting. On this occasion an actual literal baby, not the normal babysitting that the whips office is called upon to do. Inevitably, as babies do, there was a need for a nappy to be changed. I took the baby I think it was Jenny Willits's son into my office, I had laid him on the sofa and I was in the process of changing the nappy when Sir Roy Stone appeared in my office.

One glimpse at the look on his face told you that this scene just realised the worst fears he had ever had about having liberal Democrats nearby. The truth is Mr Speaker, Sir Roy was a man who cared about both government and Parliament. And actually to be able Parliament. And actually to be able to serve both requires very distinctive and particular talents. distinctive and particular talents. It was a privilege to work with him and to have the benefit of these talents, and for those who mourn him, especially his family, the him, especially his family, the recognition of the talent should be an enduring comfort.

Thank you.
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Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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I'm happy with the tributes to Sir Roy Stone. He will always be in our thoughts. Let us move on to the Shadow Chancellor Mel Stride. If she

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will make a statement on the Mansion House Accord. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Can associate myself with the tributes to Sir Roy Stone who was a true public servant and a servant of this public servant and a servant of this house. Pensions matter, they underpinned not just the retirement we all look forward to the investment our future prosperity investment our future prosperity depend upon. This morning, 17 workplace pension scheme providers, workplace pension scheme providers, between the managing about 90% of active savers find contributions, active savers find contributions, signed the Mansion House Accord.

It was proposed and developed by the industry, specifically by that Lord Mair, and it builds on the work of the former Chancellor who is in his the former Chancellor who is in his place today. Signatories to the Accord have pledged to invest 10% of the main default found in private the main default found in private assets by 2030. These are productive assets that boost the economy such as infrastructure. At least 5% will be for UK assets. This investment be for UK assets.

This investment could support better outcomes for savers and deliver growth finance to Britain's world leading Science and Technology businesses. But also support clean energy to elements across the country, delivering greater energy security and jobs. The shift towards greater investment in private assets is a journey the secretary is already on. Everyone recognises UK defined conservation schemes stand out relative to their international peers for how little they invest in these areas. This is right for savers because it is in their interest for pension funds to hold a diverse range of assets.

And it is in Britain's interest. This government wants to see higher investment levels in the UK stop we cannot continue with the lowest business investment in the G7 as we Supply of capital is part of that and we will release 25% into the economy by 2030, but so is a supplier of products to invest in the pipeline. Our job is to support the depth and visibility of the pipeline and that is why we are getting this country building once again.

The accord is an industry led again. The accord is an industry led agreement. Nevertheless, the decision to invest in more productive assets to infrastructure will support better outcomes for savers and faster growth for Britain. In the coming weeks, we Britain. In the coming weeks, we will be publishing the investment will be publishing the investment review to support the move to bigger and better pension schemes and we and better pension schemes and we will implement the reforms to improve returns for savers in the forthcoming pension scheme spell and I look forward to presenting it to this house.
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Mel Stride Portrait Rt Hon Sir Mel Stride MP (Central Devon, Conservative)
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I start by associating myself with the very fine tributes made to Sir Roy Stone and my condolences go to his family. No response from the Chancellor we see that can I thank the honourable gentleman for his statement. Millions of UK savers rely on careful management of pension funds. Those pension providers have a judiciary duty to act in the best financial interest of their members. We support efforts to ensure we are investing in assets which can increase productivity and growth and deliver stronger and stable returns for investors and savers.

But was the purpose of the first mansion house compact which was brokered in the last Conservative government. As well we know, Labour ministers have a habit of thinking they know best what it is to do with other people's money. It should ultimately be the responsibility of the providers have been entrusted by savers with their money to make investment decisions. Reports the government intends to take new pounds to mandate pension funds to allocate minimum amounts to classes of assets should be a matter of great concern to this house.

So can the Minister confirm whether the government does intend to take such legislative powers in the pensions bill later this year? If he cannot rule out making such a move, can he explain what this would mean for the existing duties set out in legislation? Major players in the industry have reportedly refused to take part in the latest iteration of the mansion house compact including Scottish Widows. Kenny honourable gentleman explained the housewife that is? What discussions has he had with Scottish Widows and others who have chosen not to take part in what concerns they have raised.

Let me be clear that we want an industry that is investing UK business infrastructure and other elements infrastructure and other elements that drive a healthier economy. That has to be for the benefit of savers. has to be for the benefit of savers. And of course, the risks here would be borne entirely by private sector be borne entirely by private sector workers while public sector workers would be protected. Let me make one final point. On this side of the final point. On this side of the house, we are very clear that pension savings should never be pension savings should never be there to dig a Chancellor out of the economic poll that she has made.
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Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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Thank you. I will address two questions and then come to the overall shadow chancellor. On the question of foundation raised, there has been a debate on the wider industry about mandating and UK equities. That has been led by peers for some members in this house, including the Conservative member for Salisbury. We are setting out a voluntary agreement led by the industry, so I will leave his contribution to that debate. 90% of the defined contribution by active savers have signed up to the accord this morning and all of those are committed to the idea of more investment in private assets, but more generally, it is disappointing because the truth is he is a lonely figure.

There is a wide consensus to invest in private assets and today's accord is industry led which sets benchmarks by the industry and many players want to go further, and there should be cross-party consensus and the Chancellor spelt out that this work builds on the work of her predecessor in supporting the 2023 mansion house compact and he will remember that because it was signed under a Conservative government when he was the Pensions Secretary, and he was in a press release championing it.

He was right then and he is letting He was right then and he is letting himself down now. I have some news just in because a response to the court has come this morning from Guy court has come this morning from Guy Opperman. Members will him because he is the former Tory member for Hexham and the only Conservative pensions minister the last pensions minister the last government to last more than five minutes. He was in his post for five minutes. He was in his post for five years and what he say? He said it was a good thing and should be welcomed.

He is not wrong. welcomed. He is not wrong.
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Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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where they have already embarked on this path? It has long been an opportunity of long-term investment to invest in rental opportunities. How can we drive the opportunities in the sector through this, and finally, the Minister quite rightly talks about a pipeline of opportunities as this may be a life opportunity to agree with development of the airport, but many of our communities are worried about the collapse of our town centres and there could be buckets of opportunity highlighted their that could be driven for appropriate investment with reliable sources.



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Thank you. It is characteristically bold to

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It is characteristically bold to welcome these measures. The member's right to raise the question of Australia and Canada, and we look Australia and Canada, and we look for we have more similar pension schemes to those in the UK and the levels of private asset allocation levels of private asset allocation is far higher that we see here in the UK. On the two specific points the UK. On the two specific points he raises, I agree on investment in social rented sector and many of our pension funds are already doing so.

pension funds are already doing so. I notice other ones will have announcement in the area ahead. He raises the breadth of investment raises the breadth of investment opportunity and he is right that we need to look at national live level need to look at national live level products but they are more local products, and where they are financed by the private sector, financed by the private sector, private schemes may want to look at

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those as well. Can the Minister spell out how this deal provides real change for our constituents across the country, but also, what it means for infrastructure on housing?

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I think my friend for his question and he is absolutely right. There is no way that Britain can return to growth unless it starts being a country investing in its future, and that is what we have future, and that is what we have been doing. It is part of a wider story, and there is hopefully cross-party consensus across the industry and across the colonists
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Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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business of pounds of taxpayers money is used to enrich the size of pension schemes in terms of tax reliefs so I would urge the Minister to continue to engage with the city. I welcome voluntary commitments but we have got to come to the point where these schemes, their risk aversion needs to be called out when we think about the amount of taxpayers money that is effectively going into them. With the Minister continue to look carefully at the options available given that the previous government will seek to previous government will seek to I thank him for his question and enjoy discussing these things as we have done over recent months.

He offers a recognition of the challenge facing the country, and very much better position his Front Benchers adopting today focusing on what we can do to change things. I recognise the point he is making about risk aversion. And this is one of the areas where I'm glad to see that we are seeing progress coming. I take a slightly more positive view in terms of the consensus that things need to change. I think we are seeing that in the pensions industry more generally, partly that investing in a wider range of assets, but also embracing the gender that we are setting out for pension fund that can take different amounts of risk.

He asks about public entities. My view today is public entities. My view today is that the accord from the industry support that by funding a pipeline of companies who can grow to the level where they can list publicly. But also private assets will include But also private assets will include private shares. I think it is a slightly more positive picture than he is painting but I'm not hiding from the wider question his making about capital markets will stop UK governments, and my colleague that governments, and my colleague that City canister are focused on that.

I look forward to further conversations on that. conversations on that. How will my honourable friend bring together UK pension schemes together with UK local and regional governments to invest in local infrastructure project? Given that European and global pension schemes often invest when UK pension funds

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do not. My honourable friend asks a great question. We will have more to say on this in the months we come
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Torsten Bell Portrait Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Swansea West, Labour)
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I thank your lazy for the question. She is right to see the boxes higher engagement levels with young people today and investing more broadly. Whenever I go into a more broadly. Whenever I go into a school sixth form a surprising volume of the questions are not unfortunately for me and what government is doing and how we get growth up but on how we make a lot of money quite quickly. We support the level of engagement and active the level of engagement and active engagement.

On the points races I would say two thing. Schemes themselves are required to set out what their policy approaches. And what their policy approaches. And many pension schemes will provide options for members in terms of how they wish their funds to be they wish their funds to be invested. Nothing that has been set out today in terms of the accord comes between those approaches. comes between those approaches. Thank you Mr Speaker. May I warmly welcome the Mansion House Accord. During the last Parliament I had the pleasure of taking part in a cross-party visit with the then member for Hexham to see a solar farm which is funded by pension investments.

A wonderful scheme close to the M4 in my constituency. Could the Minister say more about how the announcement today will support much broader investment in

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green transition, both in the south of England and across the country? I thank my friends I have also

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I thank my friends I have also benefited from conversations with him about this topic given his previous experience. He is previous experience. He is completely right to set out one of the large recent we need to move to
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Olivia Bailey Portrait Olivia Bailey MP (Reading West and Mid Berkshire, Labour)
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I think the honourable member due to his experience will know the matter is not down to the chair. But he will also appreciate that the Speaker doesn't respect timely responses to backbench correspondence and requests for answers to questions. No doubt not only has the member put his point on record, but the Treasury frontbench will relay that swiftly to the appropriate department. The Ten Minute Rule Motion. A34 Slip Road Safety. Olivia Bailey.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move leave be given to bring in a bill to provide for the review of the safety of the A34 review of the safety of the A34 sliproad at East Ilsley and Beedon and require the publication of plans to address any deficiencies in to address any deficiencies in safety identified by the review. My constituency of Reading West and Mid Berkshire is home to some beautiful Berkshire is home to some beautiful rural villages. (East Ilsley and Beedon) Bill are nestled in the North Wessex Downs and are prime examples.

Both villages are mentioned in the Domesday book of 1086 and for centuries have been home to West Berkshire families. Both have beautiful grade 1 listed Both have beautiful grade 1 listed churches. Rich agricultural traditions and a vibrant community. Many residents of these idyllic Many residents of these idyllic villages use the A34 every day to get to work, take children to school, and travel to Oxford, school, and travel to Oxford, school, and travel to Oxford, To get onto the a 34, they first had to make a perilous journey down what must be some of England's's most dangerous slip roads.

Especially southbound at East Ilsley and northbound at Beedon, they are intimidating and dangerous. Even for experienced drivers. National Highways data shows in the five years up to 2023, there were tragically multiple fatalities, and many serious accidents at these slip roads. My constituents tell me of many more near misses. In fact 91% of the nearly 500 people who filled out my survey on the sliproad's have personally experienced issues on the sliproad. 96% agreed the sliproad sliproad. 96% agreed the sliproad were dangerous.

In the words of my constituents Jenny, who told me the lack of visibility is treacherous, and the sliproad are way too short, and the sliproad are way too short, Karina who said using the sliproad feels like dicing with death, especially in winter when it is dark and raining. Joe and Steve told me they often have to break to stop on the sliproad as there are no spaces in the nearside lane to enter the flow of traffic. Even experienced drivers find the sliproad is the drivers find the sliproad is the most stressful part of any journey.

Helena feels concerned for her children's safety as they use the sliproad to commute to work. Nicola's son sadly experienced the car pileup due to a lack of visibility. My constituents should not feel afraid commuting to work or afraid every time their child drives into town. Residents feel like the situation is only getting worse. Arabella, my constituents, told me the roads are getting more dangerous as the traffic on the A34 increases and that volume of traffic, including heavy goods vehicles, is rerouted through the narrow rural lanes of these small villages, where accidents lead to road closures.

Instead of dicing with death, my constituents words, many residents choose to avoid these slip roads and instead joined the air 34 in West Illsley, adding significant time to their journeys, and increasing their journeys, and increasing traffic on the rural lanes. Others are thinking about leaving the villages altogether. My constituent Nick is one of those too concerned Nick is one of those too concerned The human impact of these slip roads is my primary concern. There is also a knock-on effect on economic growth.

The A34 is an economically significant road, connecting the major ports of the south-east with industrial heartlands in the Midlands. Every time there is an accident, the not on disruption not only prevents people from getting to work on time, but impact on businesses relying on those deliveries. The situation is clearly not sustainable and something must be done. After raising the issue with the roads minister, who I am glad to see in her place today, in Parliament in February, and meeting with the National Highways regional director to discuss my survey findings, I took the National Highways route manager on a site visit to (East Ilsley and Beedon) Bill experience the issue first hand.

We spent the morning having to accelerate along the sliproad, grappling with short bends and blind spots and dodging HGVs. It was obvious to everyone in the car my constituents are right to be alarmed. I am proud this Labour government is committing to improving the safety of English roads. We are delivering the first road safety strategy in more than a decade and have provided 4.8 billion of funding for National Highways next year. I welcome the fact National Highways will be investing in safety measures in the short I know that this government can deliver tangible change and the slip road at East Ilsley urgently needs the improvements and that is why I'm delighted to urge the government to provide a comprehensive review of the safety of these dangerous roads and ensure necessary adjustments are made as soon as possible.

National Highways have suggested that if you. I want to see this delivered quickly, alongside any necessary improvements. My right honourable friend has made it clear that the Department are focused on improving safety for road users and I look forward to working with her to make that a reality for my constituents. Before I finish, I must note that I am not the only person who has taken this issue on and I would like to pay tribute to all of those who have made the case for change.

This includes but is not limited to local residents, the A34 action group, the local honourable members and our predecessors. This has truly been a cross-party endeavour and I'm grateful for the support of colleagues from across the legal spectrum. We all want the same thing - a safer A34 and I'm taking on that excellent work with this campaign. When my constituents's car broke down, she called the AA and when she told them where she was from, they immediately knew that it was the village with the dangerous slippers, East Ilsley.

I want the ability to be known for the unique heritage, not how dangerous the slip roads are. By delivering the review and the right safety measures, we can make the slip roads safer for all

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and make a big difference for our community. The question is that the

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The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as that bring in the bill. As many as that opinion, say, "Aye." The ayes have it. Who will bring in the bill?

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it. Who will bring in the bill? the Member for Dibley, and

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the Member for Dibley, and A34 A34 Slip A34 Slip Road A34 Slip Road Safety A34 Slip Road Safety (East A34 Slip Road Safety (East Ilsley and Beedon) Bill.

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and Beedon) Bill. Second ring, what they? Friday, what they?

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Friday, what they? Friday, June 13. We move on to the afternoon debate. We come to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition on the UK-EU Summit. the Opposition on the UK-EU Summit.

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I call on Alex Burton to move the motion. The I beg to move that the motion

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I beg to move that the motion that stands in the name of my right honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, myself, and other right
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Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart MP (Brentwood and Ongar, Conservative)
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Accelerator and vanished. He went into strange new forms that we are not his own. Every time the Prime Minister speaks I wonder which body he has hopped into now. Is it the Prime Minister who spent his early life chastising all immigration law on the grounds that it was racist? on the grounds that it was racist? Or the Prime Minister who has newfound love of strict immigration newfound love of strict immigration newfound love of strict immigration rules? Prime Minister who promised to protect winter fuel payments or the one who cast them away? The the one who cast them away? The Prime Minister who promised to protect farmers and then did not? protect farmers and then did not? The Prime Minister who said he knew what a woman was and then changed his mind.

The Prime Minister does not know what he stands for of which way he looks and that, in negotiations, is a very difficult negotiations, is a very difficult thing. Our position is simple, Madam thing. Our position is simple, Madam Deputy Speaker. There can be no going back. This side of the House going back. This side of the House fought a long and hard battle to take control of laws, borders, money. And with those powers, Madam Deputy Speaker, it succeeded in securing 70 new trade deals and the fastest vaccine rollout in Europe.

And the naysayers and dismal voices on the other side of the House have said it will come to nothing but in said it will come to nothing but in the 2015... I look forward to correcting the honourable gentleman on his position. UK international trade stood at just over £1 trillion a year but by 2023, it stood at £1.6 billion a year and this was in spite billion a year and this was in spite of exit.

-- Brexit. The concern is that the government has proven itself to be a terrible negotiator, really terrible. We have previously heard the administration talk about the need for ruthless pragmatism and one can only wonder whether it is the same ruthless pragmatism that divides the Chagos deal. When I was a history teacher, we used to say they were still in history was the deal the people of north-east America did with Dutch settlers when the giveaway Manhattan Island for 60 guilders and handful of beans.

They guilders and handful of beans. They did not spend £18 billion giving away territory, as the government has. Is it the same ruthless pragmatism that immediately gave up £9.4 billion in pay rises above inflation to unionised sectors in return for nothing at all? No agreements on productivity, reform, at all. Was it the same ruthless pragmatism that saw the collapse of the £450 million AstraZeneca deal or the botched steel mess we had to return during the recess four or perhaps the same ruthless pragmatism that led to the missed opportunities of the US tariff agreement the other day.

My concern is that this will happen again. What we have heard... I would love to give way to the honourable gentleman. I am ever so grateful. I wish I could say I was enjoying this but that would be stretching it too far. Does he not understand that they are as hard Brexiteers as he is. How much damage does this have to do until they

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start to look at this seriously? I always have respect and time for the wisdom of the honourable for the wisdom of the honourable gentleman but the Opposition are not gentleman but the Opposition are not hard Brexiteers, just today, tomorrow, who knows? We know that tomorrow, who knows? We know that tomorrow, who knows? We know that they were against leaving the EU and then they changed their minds and those who change their minds on fundamental issues might change them fundamental issues might change them back and turn on a sixpence and do it again.

The fact of the matter is the government presented negotiations with no clear negotiations with no clear objectives and with red lines are so objectives and with red lines are so thin and washed out as they can be quickly discarded. Today is an opportunity for the Labour Party to opportunity for the Labour Party to come clean about what it was and what it is to be because it will what it is to be because it will have to vote on the motion which sets out our red lines, which are very clear and precise and in very clear and precise and in keeping with the will of the British

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people. I will give way. The right honourable member talks about the motion of the official about the motion of the official opposition being precise and it conflates freedom of movement with youth mobility. If youth mobility is youth mobility. If youth mobility is good enough for Australia, Canada, Uruguay, it does not run against the red lines for freedom of movement.

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red lines for freedom of movement. Does he understand that? Freedom of movement for young people, isn't it? We are asking for people, isn't it? We are asking for the Labour Party to set out what is clear position is. I will explain clear position is. I will explain why that is important. The fact is that what we have seen up until this that what we have seen up until this point is chaos and I am sure that it is easy for the Labour Party to is easy for the Labour Party to understand because on February 24, we will have heard the Home we will have heard the Home Secretary rule out this and say they will not look intimate but at the beginning of March the Postmaster beginning of March the Postmaster General suggested he was open to it but then on April 24 he ruled it out, the Paymaster General.

I'm sorry. Again, he ruled it out. But then, at the beginning of May, the Paymaster General ruled once again and it did not end with the youth mobility scheme. The pan-European Mediterranean area, on January 23, it was ruled out. Three days later, the Chancellor said that they were looking at it and am 33, it was ruled out again. -- On February it was ruled out again. -- On February 3. The government does not know what it is doing, what it wants to achieve, it has no objectives and has very blurred red lines.

There is an emerging sense that this will be... There is an emerging sense that this will be a good deal for the EU and the balance of benefits will run against the UK because, despite the fact the government do not want to give a running commentary and are content to give it to the press, the demands are being met in the negotiations and

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I'm happy to give way. He quotes 'Quantum Leap' and the

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He quotes 'Quantum Leap' and the thing with Samuel Beckett, he kept leaping into the past because he could not deal with the future. I could not deal with the future. I hope the honourable gentleman will agree that one of the important things about next Monday will be the security and offence partnerships security and offence partnerships that we can move forward on and given the threat posed by Putin, can he put aside his blindness to the he put aside his blindness to the benefits of cooperating with Europe and agree that would be a good thing to secure? I am glad to be the one to break it to the honourable lady to break it to the honourable lady that we already cooperate with Europe One Defence and have done for a very long time.

She will now the a very long time. She will now the cornerstone of Defence is and always cornerstone of Defence is and always has been NATO since the Second World has been NATO since the Second World War and, today, it is a good moment to remember that because today is the 85th anniversary of the first speech as Prime Minister given by Sir Winston Churchill from the dispatch box before this chamber was bombed and he gave his blood, sweat and tears speech and it is incredibly important that we cooperate with our European partners on Defence but that is why we do it and that is why we spend over 2.5%, this side of the House would like to spend 3% and more on Defence, largely to help defend Europe and there is no reason, because the government has not set out for it.

We know of no reason why NATO is We know of no reason why NATO is We know of no reason why NATO is

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We have British firms calling for cooperation with European allies because of increased defence costs across Europe so what would the shadow Minister say when this government is calling for a security deal? Does he not agree we should

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have one with the EU? If the terms of the deal are the

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If the terms of the deal are the UK has to pay in order to access that fund, we must ask very serious questions of our European allies questions of our European allies about why we should have to contribute when we are already contribute when we are already committed to their security. It is for the government, if they choose for the government, if they choose to go down that route, to explain why that should be the case. The truth is NATO must continue to be truth is NATO must continue to be the cornerstone of our defence.

It must continue to be the cornerstone of our defence. Of course there are reports over last weekend that the EU may be inserted into our chain of command. That would be a very significant change. From a sedentary significant change. From a sedentary position he says that is nonsense. I am pleased to hear that but he has not had the opportunity to tell the House that is the case. It was clear that somebody in government, or somebody within the EU, was briefing journalists over the weekend that this might be the case.

No, I think the honourable gentleman needs to take responsibility for his special advisers. But if there is to be a defence pact, it is for the government to set out why it would

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make us safer. One thing that always slightly puzzled me about this position the puzzled me about this position the government has taken, a bit like the Chagos Islands, we already own the islands and then we went into negotiation to give them away or rent them back, so this position, Europe threatens us so we cannot Europe threatens us so we cannot talk about other matters until we sign up for this defence deal. But we already have a defence deal and already cooperate. We built weapons already cooperate.

We built weapons with France, Sweden and various with France, Sweden and various other countries. So what is it we actually gain from this rather than

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what they would lose? My right honourable friend has a great deal of experience in these areas and makes a very important point. It is for the government to set out why this would be in the United Kingdom's interests. In a United Kingdom's interests. In a moment. The summit is next week. So moment. The summit is next week. So far the government has not yet done

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so. I'm happy to give way. I think it is important to recognise the last government reduced our army to the size last reduced our army to the size last seen in the Napoleonic era so we should take no lectures on defence from them. The people that will benefit our defence contractors in my constituency struggling to sell components to the EU since Brexit and have had to cancel contracts, affecting jobs all over the West

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Midlands. When I first arrived in this House the leader of his party was advocating leaving NATO and giving up Trident. I will take no lectures up Trident. I will take no lectures up Trident. I will take no lectures from his side of the house. My party has committed to 3% defence spending. I think defence contractors in his constituency would like to see a Conservative government and have some of that money spent on his patch. So we have no... I give way.

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no... I give way. Would my right honourable friend like to disabuse the Honourable like to disabuse the Honourable members opposite who seem to be under the impression that whatever under the impression that whatever money we put in, somehow our defence contractors in the UK will get more out of the fund than were contributing? The history of defence contributing? The history of defence procurement in Europe is France and procurement in Europe is France and Germany invariably make sure that they get more out of it than they put in and we are always the losers.



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put in and we are always the losers. I don't think we are suddenly going to become winners when we are not a member of the EU. My right honourable's friend

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My right honourable's friend experience speaks volumes. The truth is we have to be certain this will not just be another scheme for funnelling money into French defence companies and keeping them away from defence companies in other

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jurisdictions. I give way. Does he share my hope that in the negotiations next week, the negotiations next week, the government makes it clear to our European partners that over decades this country has contributed to our collective defence well above our collective defence well above our economy or population all size and economy or population all size and Europe has benefited from that? I am in no way recommending a Trumpian approach but it is important in approach but it is important in these negotiations that the these negotiations that the government makes it clear the scale of our contribution to collective defence.



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defence. I fully agree with the remarks made by my right honourable friend. made by my right honourable friend. The UK has made disproportionately high unnecessary contributions to European defence over many decades. -- And necessary. They were right to do so and I hope they do so in future but it is only right our friends recognise that contribution and do not treat us as an external power coming to parlay but rather as a close, long-term friend whose loyalty has already been proved many times over.

We would also do well to get clarification today from the government on their position on EU law making. I was lucky enough to have a call with my right honourable friend Sir William Cash this morning. It was an unusually brief call. It only lasted 20 minutes. Sir Bill put it very clearly to me. He said that in any new arrangement with the EU, it is very important we see no EU law making, no jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice, and no attempt to reapply the principles of EU law in reapply the principles of EU law in our court.

That is because one of the principles of our departure from the EU was that we would take back control of our money, our borders and laws. With that I give way.

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The honourable member is quite right to say there must be no further surrendered to EU law. But in the same vein, is there not a in the same vein, is there not a need to recover territorial integrity of the United Kingdom? I represent a party in the United Kingdom where in 300 areas of law it Kingdom where in 300 areas of law it is not this House that makes the laws but a foreign parliament. Should the starting point of a reset not be recovering territorial

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not be recovering territorial The matter? The honourable gentleman makes a good point which has been raised in this House before and I look forward this House before and I look forward to him raising it with the Minister in a few moments. On fish, we are clear that there should be no clear that there should be no multi-year deal because to do so reduces the UK leveraging future negotiations with the EU. We should have 12 nautical miles exclusive have 12 nautical miles exclusive access.

That is what our fishermen want and what the Conservative party supports. There should be fair distribution of quota schemes and new trade barriers during a dispute. The shadow Secretary of State for the environment farming and rural affairs has been very clear about this. This is an opportunity to defend UK fishermen and build on the deal that we had from the Brexit negotiations previously. We should

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not be giving up freedom for our fishermen. I'm happy to give way. It is important to remember their

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It is important to remember their history. There was no Common Fisheries Policy until the prospect of the British joining the common of the British joining the common market arose. Then they created one simply so they could rip us off.

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simply so they could rip us off. And isn't that the truth? Here is

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And isn't that the truth? Here is an opportunity for the government to

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an opportunity for the government to give guarantees and securities. Happy to give way. He is talking about fishing

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He is talking about fishing rights. But under his government, the UK catch dropped by 80%, is that correct? Will he apologise for the correct? Will he apologise for the damage he and his party did to the

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UK fishing industry? We are the party that took fishermen out of the Common Fisheries Policy, which is something that the fishing communities wanted. We very much hope that this government is not going to concede the rights that were hard-won in those negotiations. I give way.

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I thank the shadow Minister. Has he quantum lept into a body where

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Brexit has been a huge success? SPECT -- If he heard my opening remarks, he would have heard that in 2015, the volume of UK trade was just over £1 trillion. By 2023, in spite of £1 trillion. By 2023, in spite of Brexit, that had gone up to £1.6 trillion. I think sometimes the trillion. I think sometimes the people on the other side of the argument, many of whom had understandable concerns, we were understandable concerns, we were making a big change which had not making a big change which had not been made in over 40 years, many of them seem I think trapped like Doctor Samuel Beckett in the past.

Unable to realise that there had Unable to realise that there had been significant improvements in the UK's trading position because of the freedoms we acquired and because of the trade deals the previous government brought in. If the honourable gentleman wishes to change his altered reality, there will be an audience for it in this house. On the emissions trading scheme, we know that carbon prices are higher in the EU than the UK. There is a great concern among certain industries that if as has been mentioned in the press the government is planning to sign us up to the system, there will be a heavy price to pay particularly in ceramics.

Two weeks ago, we saw, OK, one moment. Fair enough. Two weeks ago we saw a ceramics factory in Stoke-on-Trent closed. Citing high energy prices under this Labour That is a continuation of the policies of his own government, actually. Which had four Industrial Strategy's all of which promised help for the ceramic sector which never materialised. But one of their biggest problems was making sure the contact regulations they have to supply with to sell their wares match the British system that we have here so what will he do to make sure the relationship we have will allow for the free trade arrangement

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for the goods we make and sell to Europe? It would be irrelevant if all businesses are shut down because of businesses are shut down because of high energy prices. He can talk about the previous government but it was his party that promised to cut fuel bills by £300 and instead they fuel bills by £300 and instead they continue going up. All of the market expectation is energy prices will continue arising under this continue arising under this government. That would be bad for other ceramics factories like the ones in his constituency.

There are a range of other things that we a range of other things that we could go into. There are going to be negotiations with the EU and there negotiations with the EU and there are plenty of things that we might raise. But we don't know if the government has raised them. government has raised them. Arrangements over illegal migration with France. Mutual recognition of with France. Mutual recognition of food standards. The certification of food standards. The certification of UK conformity on centres, touring musicians, and so on but the point musicians, and so on but the point is the government has not told us if it is pursuing these things.

Whether they are negotiating these things on our behalf. We on this side of the House are clear, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are clear. In following the referendum, following the referendum this country turned a page. It is very important that his party does not turn it back. The fact is that we are on the brink of witnessing yet another disastrous labour deal. Because we know that when Labour negotiates, Britain loses. To leave the House in no doubt, if and when my party is back in power, we will reverse any handover of power, any imposition of EU law, any new rights for the ECJ, and any new budgetary commitments.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is my party that took the country out of the EU and it is my party that will keep it

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out and I commend this statement to the house. The question is as on the order paper. I called the Minister to
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Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)
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is to follow the honourable gentleman across the dispatch box. gentleman across the dispatch box. Discussions are ongoing but I'm sure our members will understand that I our members will understand that I cannot pre-empt what will be revealed at the summit next week. We will not provide running commentary on negotiations and would not be expected to buy this House. After the summit has concluded, we will use the earliest possible opportunity, of course, to update members across Parliament on what has been delivered at the impact the measures will have.

I want to focus measures will have. I want to focus remarks on how the government is remarks on how the government is improving lives and making the UK safer, more secure, more prosperous. safer, more secure, more prosperous. I'm grateful to the Opposition for giving us the opportunity to talk about how the government is doing that. What we have heard from the that. What we have heard from the Opposition today and from the Leader of the Opposition lately is the only thing surrendered is the credibility of the Conservative Party as a party of opposition, not government.

The only Quantum Leap we have seen is a Conservative Party that has gone from government to irrelevance. 2025 started so well, didn't it? The Leader of the Opposition was turning over a new leaf, taking responsibility for mistakes, and said, "We are making announcements without proper plans and we announced we would leave the EU before we had a plan for growth." Today, with negotiations ongoing, they have gone back to the rehashed argument of the past. No analysis as to where interest lies in the mid- 2020s.

They do not believe in the ability of Britain to win and perhaps that is no surprise in the 40 years of failure that they delivered for the country. This government was elected in July 2024 with a mandate to deliver change for working people and we are delivering on the promises of the manifesto and if the right honourable gentleman does not know about the objectives, I suggest he reached the manifesto which delivered 411 Labour members of Parliament who overwhelmingly

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rejected the party opposite. And grateful to the honourable

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And grateful to the honourable gentleman but I might point out that the motion stands by the results of the motion stands by the results of the 2016 referendum in terms of the amendment and the Labour amendment amendment and the Labour amendment does not say and so are they saying does not say and so are they saying the referendum result has been trumped by a one-term mandate? Does she respect the result?

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she respect the result? We respect the result and if you

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We respect the result and if you bother to read it, he was driving a red lines with regard to the single red lines with regard to the single market, customs union, freedom of movement. Delivering on the movement. Delivering on the promises... In a moment. It will unlock huge benefits for the UK, unlock huge benefits for the UK, reduce trade barriers, accelerate economic growth, keep us secure in an uncertain world - safer, more an uncertain world - safer, more secure, more prosperous.

That is what this government is working towards. Speak in the Labour manifesto which she has referred to several times, did it three anything at all about accepting dynamic alignment or rules? Anything at all?

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The objective to negotiate, we must have agricultural products, must have agricultural products, food and drink, more cheaply treaded and the EU is in the manifesto and we have a mandate. What the government will do is put more money government will do is put more money in the pockets of working people and greater long-term stability and security for the British people. Apparently, the Opposition is Apparently, the Opposition is against that and so are Reform but, to be fair, the honourable member to be fair, the honourable member for Clacton says he thinks the current deal can be improved.

I am current deal can be improved. I am afraid that they never exactly told as far and we will wait to find out. Since last July, the government has been getting on with the job and resetting the relationship with the EU in a number of important areas. I

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will give way. Right now, the young people of the country cannot move freely across the continent. There are discussions about the youth mobility scheme. Will he commit to securing that for the young people of this country?

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I would not say she is confined

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I would not say she is confined to any island, really. I have to any island, really. I have already spoken about smart youth mobility schemes which were agreed mobility schemes which were agreed upon by the previous government but the government is exercising diplomacy in the national interest and you only have to look at trade deals with the US, India, delivering deals with the US, India, delivering for the British people. Tell that to the workers at Jaguar Land Rover who the workers at Jaguar Land Rover who have had jobs saved by the trade deal announced with the US and on deal announced with the US and on the issue of the trade deal with India, I would say to the honourable India, I would say to the honourable gentleman from the SNP, I was in Scotland yesterday talking to the Scotland yesterday talking to the Scotch Whisky Association about the enormous benefits for Scotland of the India deal auntie should welcome the India deal auntie should welcome that, not criticise the government.

Britain is back on the world stage, no thanks to the Opposition and on that note, I will give way.

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He mentioned Scotland yesterday and I am a Scottish MP and I'm in and I am a Scottish MP and I'm in Scotland every week and I have met with representatives from distilleries who are suffering because of the family farm taxi government has brought in and the government has brought in and the reason as farmers are downsizing. If the Minister and the government the Minister and the government proud of the legacy and contribution to the Scottish Whisky Association?

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to the Scottish Whisky Association? I'm proud of the extra £25 billion we put into the NHS. The billion we put into the NHS. The Opposition are in favour of investment but will not tell us how they will raise the money. Is there they will raise the money. Is there any country that they actually want British business to trade with? They British business to trade with? They British business to trade with? They But, to be fair, they did not say which but they delivered nothing for the British people and if we secure it, they complain about that.

We secure an economic deal with the US and that was long promised by the last government, never delivered, do not like that. I like to be constructive so can I make a suggestion to the honourable member that perhaps he should become the Shadow Secretary Of State for No Business and No Trade because that is what we have negotiated. And whilst self-employed, and I would be careful, and whilst the Opposition continues to turn inwards or its, the government will focus on delivering.

Our priority is translating that strengthened relationship with the EU into a long-term UK-EU strategic partnership to improve the lives of working people and put more money in their pocket. I know the honourable gentleman has been trying to come in

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for a while so I will go to him. The honourable Minister will have

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The honourable Minister will have heard what the Opposition Shadow Minister said in terms of pride in Brexit and it seems to me the Opposition is proud of the terrible Opposition is proud of the terrible deal they delivered on Brexit and is unable to bring forward constructive unable to bring forward constructive ideas. They have set out five red lines but does the Minister agree the Opposition has nothing to be proud of about the Brexit deal they proud of about the Brexit deal they brought forward and nothing about brought forward and nothing about making Britain poorer or the trade deals and ability share the framework evil discussed moving forward?

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-- Framework he will discuss moving forward. Speak if you had bothered to speak to any businesses, they would know that the status quo they would know that the status quo is not working. I promised the

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honourable gentleman. the Minister has spoken about UK deals with the US and next Tuesday will be a UK reset with the EU. Can I ask, where is Northern Ireland's place in that? When we have asked about Northern Ireland getting about Northern Ireland getting benefit from the India, US trade

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deals, we have got no answers. I visited Belfast more than once

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I visited Belfast more than once as a minister and listen carefully to businesses about priorities. Northern Ireland has dual market Northern Ireland has dual market access and I would recommend they access and I would recommend they take the greatest advantage of that and there are a level of checks in the Irish Sea and so if we are the Irish Sea and so if we are unable to secure the deal, that will reduce the necessity for checks in reduce the necessity for checks in the Irish Sea and I hope you would support that.

On safety, the Trade and Cooperation Agreement left a gap in our ability to tackle crime and criminality and stopped opportunities to work together with opportunities to work together with European countries to stop the pose on migration. We are responding to a on migration. We are responding to a once in a generation moment for the collective security of our country collective security of our country for an ambitious UK-EU relationship and with the shadow of the 80th anniversary of VE Day and the powerful reminders we have seen up and down the country, securing this experiment.

Comes to NATO, this is a reminder of the contribution of the great post-war Labour government of Clement Attlee and Ernest Bevan and it remains our commitment, 75 years after the treaty was signed, and after the treaty was signed, and that will not change. In fact, a new Defence and Security Budget strengthens security and NATO and to suggest otherwise is irresponsible. The UK is rapidly increasing Defence spending and has played a leadership role on Ukraine and the only person who would benefit from division across Europe is Vladimir Putin.

On growth, the government's central growth, the government's central mission, we want to slash red tape.

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I thank the honourable member for giving way. I'm pleased he's trying to negotiate a new SDR and work to to negotiate a new SDR and work to remove the tape. Does he agree that remove the tape. Does he agree that constituents like mine are desperate to remove that redtape to increase

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exports like they did before the botched Brexit deal? She is absolutely right.

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She is absolutely right. Businesses up and down the country will benefit. I will give way. Speak will benefit. I will give way. Speak the honourable gentleman is making a good case. Would you agree that good case. Would you agree that these deals do not diminish complement NATO at a time when transatlantic security cannot be taken for granted and securing taken for granted and securing access to programs like the Security Action for Europe will increase capability?

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He is right. This would be the worst moment to start fragmenting Defence across Europe. Let me just Defence across Europe. Let me just say that on the three pillars of this negotiation, safety, security, growth, this government will deliver for the country's future, reducing the cost of living and creating jobs. Frankly, today's Opposition motion is stuck in the past. Everybody else has moved on and frankly it is time for them to move

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on, too. He raises the important point of

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He raises the important point of the cost of living. Given the dire economic impact of Brexit including economic impact of Brexit including food, inflation being eight times higher than it would have been, and the cost of leaving the European the cost of leaving the European Union amounting to £1 million an Union amounting to £1 million an hour according to data from ONS, does he agree it makes sense to use does he agree it makes sense to use the summit next week to start discussions on the process of

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rejoining? I respect the result of the 2016

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I respect the result of the 2016 referendum. Exactly what she is saying in terms of the cost of food is what an agreement on agricultural products, food and drink would seek to deal with and I hope to see her party support that. Can I say to the party opposite that the defenders of party opposite that the defenders of the current status quo is what they seem to be and if they bothered to speak to traders they would know speak to traders they would know that the status quo is not working and not in the interest of UK businesses, big or small.

As one member said, the existing trade deal is, "Not a very good." That was the honourable member for Clacton. I do not often agree with him. As a result of the failure of the previous government, companies have endured significant delays at our borders and have had to fill out hundreds of pieces of paper to

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The Minister is making an excellent speech. I'm sure he is concerned about small businesses who would particularly benefit from an would particularly benefit from an agri-food deal. Will he talk about benefits for small businesses?

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benefits for small businesses? It would be of particular benefit to small and medium-sized is that simply have not had the capacity to deal with the additional red tape we deal with the additional red tape we have seen in recent years. I will give way once more.

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give way once more. Last time we exchanged comments in the chamber, I will come back to in the chamber, I will come back to that in a bit but the honourable gentleman makes sensible points about trusted traders and easing about trusted traders and easing barriers at the border. But he knows when he speaks of safety and security that there are key security relationships with America, Canada, Australia and of course we cooperate but any changes to our relationships about security with Europe would be about security with Europe would be .

In particular when we talk about defence and procurement, because those Euro enthusiasts on the continent have always wanted a pan European army and pan- European security.

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Just to say first of all there is absolutely no compromise on the core principles of our defence we have had since NATO was founded in 1949. Far from any weak link, this produces the opposite. This would be produces the opposite. This would be the worst moment to fragment European defence. That is not what this government is doing. I this government is doing. I dismissed any suggestion of a European army in the way I think the right honourable gentleman means it.

This is about a crucial moment for the continent. It is about leadership and peace on our leadership and peace on our continent. It is about strengthening continent. It is about strengthening and complementing NATO. Not weakening it in any sense. I hope people take that reassurance. I go people take that reassurance. I go back to the point about businesses. Businesses themselves are speaking out. Businesses have been upfront out. Businesses have been upfront about the challenges. Paperwork can about the challenges. Paperwork can take hours to complete and demands take hours to complete and demands detailed as niche as the Latin name for the chicken used in our chicken tikka masala.

It is not just M and S. All supermarkets have said the same as recently reported in the financial Times. Yesterday in Edinburgh, I heard from businesses about the difficulties they face, difficulties we could resolve with some ruthless pragmatism and a better deal. Meanwhile a few weeks ago, I will make some progress, more than 50 energy companies and organisations highlighted the need for closer energy cooperation with the EU, to drive down cost and drive the EU, to drive down cost and drive up investment.

All these were voices a Conservative Party of the past might have listened to but not it seems this lot on the front bench. There is an opportunity in front of us that the opposition does not even want to try to understand. It will make a difference in growing the economy. Boosting living standards. Eradicating the barriers to trade which limit trade with our single biggest trading partner today. I will just make a bit more progress. The consequence of the conservative position today is they are defending a status quo that is failing businesses and failing working people.

Their view and let's be clear about this, their view is the trade barriers holding businesses back should stay in place. It impacts the cost of living. It impacts the number of jobs. I will give way to the honourable gentleman.

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I thank the Minister for giving way. Does he agree that at the heart way. Does he agree that at the heart of this debate is this and is taking proactive engagement with our nearest and largest trading and security partner, which is a quantum security partner, which is a quantum leap from the failed positions of sneering resentment from the party opposite?

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opposite? Absolutely right. It is a quantum leap of improvement from what we saw from the party opposite. I give way.

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from the party opposite. I give way. I thank the Minister for giving way. The SPS and the energy deals he way. The SPS and the energy deals he has outlined, will this be on the basis of a mutual recognition of standards? Or does he envisage the standards? Or does he envisage the United Kingdom accepting EU standards now being dynamically aligned and placing ourselves under the jurisdiction of the European Court?

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Court? Just to be clear, on the issue of energy, the issue of whether it is SPS or employment rights, this government is interested in a race to the top and not a race to the bottom. They feign interest in the details of the deal next Monday. The Leader of the Opposition did not even want to look at it before she went out over the weekend to try to make up her mind about it. That is not the behaviour of a serious opposition party, let alone a party of government.

They are very happy to carp on about what they are against. Not caring about reducing bills, about the paychecks of people, not caring about jobs and forever trying not to spell out an alternative. They haven't listened and haven't learned. On the issue of

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learning and listening, I give way. I just wanted to check on

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I just wanted to check on

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I just wanted to check on something. We can debate whether or not a trade deal can be improved. I am sure all trade deals can be improved. The American one or an extensive one with Europe. Probably extensive one with Europe. Probably the greatest one being negotiated. One area I think to go back into One area I think to go back into this discussion, it is really very clear. Looking at a paper produced by the Centre for European reform make this point very clearly as the government goes into negotiation, they say the Labour Party red lines do not extend to ruling out dynamic do not extend to ruling out dynamic alignment or a role for the ECJ.

Are they correct in the fact that is the position of the present Labour

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government? I had to say that having been for some years in this House with the honourable gentleman, I never honourable gentleman, I never thought I would find him quoting the Centre for European reform in a Parliamentary debate. Clearly there is someone on the other side moving on even if the front bench are not. Madam Deputy Speaker, driven by our ruthlessly pragmatic approach, next Monday's UK-EU Summit will be the first of annual summit between the UK and the EU.

It will be a day of delivery. Delivering on our manifesto, not returning to the customs union, single market or freedom of movement or revisiting

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the arguments of 2016. On the subject of the argument of 2016, I give way. I can understand why he did not

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I can understand why he did not want to answer the two questions from the opposing party on dynamic alignment. But surely given 1/3 opportunity he will commit this government not to in any way have government not to in any way have any dynamic alignment, so of course we can benefit from trade deals around the world and that is a great

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Brexit benefit. In the last few weeks we are

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In the last few weeks we are absolutely benefiting from trade absolutely benefiting from trade deals around the world. Hang on, nothing that we are doing with the European Union is stopping that. If European Union is stopping that. If you would like evidence of that, he can see the UK-India trade deal the government agreed in recent weeks. government agreed in recent weeks. Look at the deal with the United States that this government has agreed in recent weeks. Nothing we are doing with the European Union are doing with the European Union cut across this.

Our position has been we will not choose between our allies. The UK national interest lies in, there is nothing dynamic lies in, there is nothing dynamic about the party opposite, and we are deepening our trade relationship with all our partners and that is in our national interest. I had to say, and I have given away a number of times now, trade, security, defence and other areas of our relationship should never be treated as a zero- sum game. It is possible to deliver on all fronts and that is exactly what this government is doing.

So I look forward to turning a page next week. As we forge a new strategic partnership with our European friends. Making Brexit work in the interest of the British people. We are stepping up and meeting the moment. Making people safer, more secure and delivering growth. Delivering in our national interest which is what this government will

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do. The original question was as on the Order Paper, since when the Order Paper, since when amendment a has been proposed as on the paper. The question is the original word stand part of the question and I call Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

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spokesperson. Thank you. My thanks to the Conservative front bench for bringing this motion, which reveals if nothing else the sorry state of
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James MacCleary Portrait James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)
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if nothing else the sorry state of their party. Not a vision for Britain's future but a stubborn fixation on a failed past. The botched Brexit deal has left us not flourishing but floundering. Not prosperous but poor. The dreadful Brexit deal has been ruinous for our economy. While they cling to Brexit dogma, British businesses, farmers and fishers across every corner of the country face the harsh reality of their record of incompetence. Britain deserves more than hollow promises and endless excuses.

Britain deserves better. The motion today is a checklist of conservative failures. What was once a pro- business party of open markets and free trade is now cowering behind trade barriers. There is only one Liberal Party speaking up for British business in this House and Businesses that were promised a bonfire of regulation are now buried in paperwork. The Tories did not

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deliver the streamlined trade promise. They created a bureaucratic nightmare. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving me the opportunity friend for giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of one of my constituents, who started a business importing organic produce from the EU. They have to pay to recertify EU. They have to pay to recertify the produce in the UK at their own the produce in the UK at their own cost, killing the business. Is this the type of red tape introduced by Brexit that the Minister should remove?

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remove? Absolutely. It speaks to the nature of the deal that was agreed when we left the European Union, far from creating the streamlined trade the Conservatives promised and instead they strangled great. Farmers were promised golden Farmers were promised golden opportunities and ended up poorer and weighed down by more Tory Brexit

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bureaucracy. I thank my honourable friend. The previous Conservative government undermined farmers and the rural economy by botched trade deals with economy by botched trade deals with Australia and and the former DEFRA secretary slammed it by saying the UK gave away far too much for far too little. Does my honourable friend agree that this government should not allow farmers to be should not allow farmers to be

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thrown under the bus again? I thank my honourable friend. She is a strong advocate for farmers in her constituency and across the country and I agree with what she country and I agree with what she said. Likewise the fishing communities have also suffered. In my constituency, I hear from my constituency, I hear from fishermen in New Haven who fear their livelihoods are close to collapse. Elsewhere we have the collapse. Elsewhere we have the example of offshore shellfish in Brixham represented by my honourable friend the Member for South Devon.

Every shipment of muscles they need a vet to sign 17 documents by hand. a vet to sign 17 documents by hand. 17. Missing a deadline at Calais and the whole cat goes to waste. That is not taking back control. That is not taking back control. That is losing the plot. The Tories have thoroughly botched our relationship with Europe but labour's with Europe but labour's Risks, I will give when amendment, Risks, I will give when amendment, risks cementing the failure.

We acknowledge their recognition the Brexit deal was not working but their approach falls short. Where Britain need bold leadership, they at times offer little more than a

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reluctant half measures. Where we need decisive action, there are excuses and red lines. He raises a very interesting point about shellfish. The day we point about shellfish. The day we left the EU, the environmental left the EU, the environmental standards and hygiene standards we apply to shellfish remained exactly the same as they were when we were the same as they were when we were in the EU. It is the EU that has applied all that bureaucracy and requirement. Under trade organisation rules, if you have equivalent standards, you are equivalent standards, you are obliged to allow goods to enter your obliged to allow goods to enter your jurisdiction are unchecked.

Why does the EU breach this international law the EU breach this international law so wantonly? Why has the government become a supplicant to the EU to try to gain favour with them so they remove these legal barriers?

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I thank the honourable member. I think he would acknowledge it is not think he would acknowledge it is not just the regulations which are barriers to export in this country. I mentioned Calais. The Port of Dover sees massive delays in getting any goods through the port because of the additional bureaucracy and security which had to be put in place by Brexit. My port in New Haven which I know very well and I would humbly suggest they have had to spend billions of pounds to simply put in place more barriers to move goods through the port and that is what is slowing things down.

He makes a fair point about equivalence. At the end of the day it is not the only output of Brexit which is harming the industry. If I might make a bit of progress. So back to where we were. Labour's half measures I was talking about, they at the moment seem afraid of their reform -shaped shadow that it rules out bold measures to set British business free and stimulate growth. It cannot afford timidity. Businesses cannot afford it. Our young people who face a future with less opportunities than their parents absolutely cannot afford it.

parents absolutely cannot afford it.

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I assume he is not advocating for the Common Fisheries Policy which has a ludicrous equivalent and effectively is bad for fish as they effectively is bad for fish as they were discarded live and bad for fishermen who were limited by quotas. It had a devastating effect on the fishing industry across the on the fishing industry across the country. Surely he does not want

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that? Absolutely not, the Common Fisheries Policy did a lot of damage

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Fisheries Policy did a lot of damage as did the agricultural policy due to farming. It is possibly worth noting the honourable member for Clacton attended only one Fisheries attended only one Fisheries Committee meeting a potential 42 he could have attended and never spoke up for British interests and that might be why the policy was not to

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our benefit. What we have advocated for around all of these areas is a new relationship fishing and it does not resolve this and they cannot cope with the idea that we can move forward to have a different arrangement. We don't go back to what we did before. First, the fundamental research and rebuilding trust damaged by years of recklessness and I acknowledge the work the ministers have done in this regard. Rejoining crucial European agencies that directly benefit people such as Erasmus+, the European Aviation Safety Agency and the issue with the Conservatives agreeing to pay £2 billion a year to rejoin the program after the enormous harm and had done to research and innovation.

They recognise the necessity of such programs and to turn around and with the government paying for other schemes, this is the very height of , British businesses must have the oxygen that they desperately need and finally, in terms of single market membership, prospective businesses, and the maximum opportunity for future relationships. relationships.

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I thank the honourable member for a giving way. And I thank him and I welcome the comments he made about the Common Fisheries Policy. Will he join us and go one further and urged the government not to give up any common fishing rights the UK benefits from two giveaway fishing benefits from two giveaway fishing to France for other benefits? Can he to France for other benefits? Can he be strong and urge the government to

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make this more efficient? That can be rolled out definitively. I am clear, but we definitively. I am clear, but we should not be doing, it has been hysterically speculated in the right-wing press, we should not right-wing press, we should not trade away fishing rights for a trade away fishing rights for a defence deal. That is something that the Liberal Democrats have been cleared about and we will continue

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to be. Of course. The member is making some excellent points and to his credit excellent points and to his credit he set out four clear points and this is more than the government or main opposition party have done and a democracy fails to be a democracy people do not have the ability to change their mind. Does he rule out ever rejoining the EU?

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I thank the honourable member for Arbroath for the point. It is impossible to rule out anything. If you would have asked me 20 years ago FI would have considered it possible FI would have considered it possible we believe, I would have said I thought it was extremely unlikely thought it was extremely unlikely and so who knows what will happen in the future. We may have a different government of a different complexion that chooses to take the steps but right now that is not something we are talking about.

On the other side are talking about. On the other side of things the EU must be flexible to, the UK is not an ordinary country but a major economy and the country but a major economy and the EU must make space for bespoke, pragmatic arrangements and the pragmatic arrangements and the government must immediately introduce a youth mobility scheme. Young people deserve the same European opportunities previous generations including those on these benches enjoyed. The Tories have refused this commonsense approach and Labour have flip-flopped.

We have existing schemes with Australia, the US, Canada, but not our closest neighbours. Young people deserve opportunities in Europe. In terms of the economic recklessness of Trump and the situation in Ukraine, we must have strong partnerships and a comprehensive UK-EU Defence pack is essential for national security. We have lost access to crucial intelligence sharing and vital mechanisms to track terrorists across borders. It's not taking back control but making British people feel less safe and secure and those who claim the cooperation is to do with -- would somehow weaken NATO, that's not the case.

This would increase the ability to deploy forces, particularly in the East, and I was to purchase more equipment more efficiently and to boost British Defence firms. Stronger cooperation on European defence bolsters the alliance and improved shared operational authority. The Conservatives are undermining British security and spreading scaremongering by suggesting otherwise. The UK could be plunged into a trade war with Trump. They to the £6 billion -- £336 billion was the UK trade with Europe last year.

Imagine how much more money the UK would have in their pocket if the

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disaster still had not shrunk the economy by 4%. In my constituency, many workers

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In my constituency, many workers tell me they are worried about the future of the plant and the principal reason they are worried is principal reason they are worried is the Conservatives have had so much red tape that in terms of the network, it is under threat. This is one example of the ways in which this particular Brexit deal damages the economy rather than support the economy rather than support score industries - does he agree? Speak I thank my honourable friend Speak I thank my honourable friend for the intervention and sticking up for local businesses as he always does absolutely, the effect on the supply chain in particular has been supply chain in particular has been an element not always obvious but detrimental to many, particularly larger businesses.

By contrast, the larger businesses. By contrast, the trade deal which was much vaunted signed with India as a fraction of signed with India as a fraction of the former deal with the EU, around 20 times smaller than the economic boost we would gain simply by aligning with the EU on goods and services. services.

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The whole House will have noted he failed to rule out a second referendum because he did not like the result of the first one. Can I ask him directly, like the government, are the Liberal Democrats prepared to accept a process of dynamic alignment where process of dynamic alignment where we effectively become a passive intake from the European Union?

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intake from the European Union? There are two points and the first was about a second referendum first was about a second referendum and I find this to be fascinating. Elections happen every four years and at the last election we returned a Labour government and by the argument there was a referendum in 2016 in perpetuity, no matter what the British people think, this suggests that everybody should join suggests that everybody should join the Labour Party because we have a government in perpetuity and perhaps government in perpetuity and perhaps the members on this site might want to consider.

The second point, he used the term 'rule taker', and I find this fascinating because it was quite visible with conservative negotiations on Brexit, how enthralled they became to the enthralled they became to the At the idea you could have your cake and eat it and the recent trade deal does involve the UK having to take some things as well and that is what a trade deal looks like and it certainly looks like that when you are talking with the largest trading bloc on the planet.

The key question that the honourable member should be asking is what benefit would it bring to British people. Ultimately, that is the job of any government or politician - what will benefit us? By contrast, if I might resume, my honourable friend tells me of an engineering firm in his constituency which, due to Brexit redtape, finds it easier to trade with South Korea than Europe. Not just damaging, absurd. The one thing the government will not do which is guaranteed to deliver growth as negotiator bespoke customs union with the EU but they are hiking national insurance for businesses, stifling investment and refusing to support the most vulnerable in society by not scrapping the cap or safeguarding PIP.

Only a customs union can give businesses the long-term certainty they need our help to shield the British job from the looming threat of Trump's trade wars.

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He told us he has a constituent that finds it easier to trade with that finds it easier to trade with South Korea than the EU. What does South Korea than the EU. What does that tell us about the EU? Is that whatever the reasons why people whatever the reasons why people voted to leave. It is because of excessive bureaucracy and it is excessive bureaucracy and it is protectionism. Why is it easier to trade with South Korea than the EU if it was not for EU bureaucracy? To if it was not for EU bureaucracy? To be clear, it was one of my be clear, it was one of my constituents, one of my honourable friend as much as it was but it is as simple as that, protectionist as simple as that, protectionist party putting up trade barriers and the Conservative Party continue to advocate for it.



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advocate for it. I thank my honourable friend forgivingly. My constituents are facing delays on essential facing delays on essential medication conditions like diabetes, ADHD, mental health. Does my honourable friend agree that now is not the time to play politics and be must seek an agreement with the European Medicines Agency to cut the

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red tape? It is an important point and there have been shortages of there have been shortages of medication which have had detrimental impacts on the lives of detrimental impacts on the lives of parents and children. Insulin and other essential medication. Britain other essential medication. Britain belongs at the heart of Europe, not belongs at the heart of Europe, not the periphery, isolated. We recognise rebuilding the ties requires patience and skilled diplomacy but, unlike the Tories, we will not bury our heads in the sand will not bury our heads in the sand I will not think like Labour.

We I will not think like Labour. We believe in the potential of Britain and the future of Britain and we believe that our future is brighter, believe that our future is brighter, stronger, more prosperous when we work together with you. Today, the Conservative motion offers no Conservative motion offers no solutions, only distraction from the disastrous record with the EU. disastrous record with the EU. Britain deserves civil rebuild relationships and deliver genuine relationships and deliver genuine prosperity and restore the standing with the world.

This is the Britain Liberal Democrats offer, not the Tories, their fantasies, and not Labour sitting on the fence with a clear vision and an unwavering commitment to the best interests of Britain. Let's be honest, many on the Labour benches agree and they know that the fence sitting will not cut but are not allowed to agree. Fear not, we will. The Conservatives have nothing to say on Europe. Labour have tied themselves up in red lines and the public now the future of the country is European.

For businesses, jobs, national security, children's future, it is the time to put the division of the past behind us and actively national interest. We will vote against the nonsensical motion and stand ready to work constructively with the government to build a closer and more pragmatic relationship with more pragmatic relationship with

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Ben Coleman.

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It may come as a surprise to many people, finding things as a result people, finding things as a result of the mess left by the last government to be a little gloomy and challenging so today, I am challenging so today, I am incredibly heartened because we have got a real opportunity to be hopeful got a real opportunity to be hopeful and positive about the future of this country. The ideology and the chaos that has caused so much damage chaos that has caused so much damage from the Conservative government running scared from the Reform Party, is giving way to something pragmatic and competent.

I would pragmatic and competent. I would love to congratulate the government at this stage on its tremendous securing of trade deals with India and the USA, and I am looking and the USA, and I am looking forward to having a hat-trick, a trade deal with the European Union is even bigger and better than either of those and all in the either of those and all in the Because what is absolutely clear to me and what everybody knows the
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