House of Commons
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prayers
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
1. What discussions she has had with her ministerial colleagues on the future of the 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards, the Welsh cavalry.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
Before I answer the question, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the 10 British servicemen who have been killed in action since our last session of Welsh questions, including five who were from, or attached to, the 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh. They were courageous and talented soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of our nation, and we will always remember them.
The Army is conducting a study of its future force structure. The outcome of the study will be announced once decisions have been made. Until then, it is not possible to comment on which specific units may be affected.
Andrea Leadsom
May I urge my right hon. Friend, on behalf of the numerous constituents who have written to me about the Queen’s Dragoon Guards, to work closely with her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to try to ensure that this superb regiment is retained?
Mrs Gillan
I have stressed that the continuation of a strong military presence in Wales is of great importance both to the local communities and to the country as a whole. I proudly display at the entrance to Gwydyr House the emblem of the Queen’s Dragoon Guards, which celebrates the bravery and commitment of our armed forces in Wales on behalf of Queen and country. I will continue to give every support to our Welsh regiments, including the QDG.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The feet-dragging by the Ministry of Defence over the future of the Welsh cavalry is deeply damaging to its morale. Will the Secretary of State strongly urge Defence Ministers to keep it?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman is well aware that I have fully supported the Welsh cavalry—the QDG. I will take no lessons from a party which, in restructuring the Army, consigned more than 600 years of military tradition in Wales to the history books when it abolished the Royal Welch Fusiliers and the Royal Regiment of Wales to form the Royal Welsh. I, certainly, will continuously press the Welsh regiments’ case at the highest level, and the hon. Gentleman should take comfort from that.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that abolishing the QDG would be almost as bad as abolishing, for example, the Welsh Guards? Will she impress on her Cabinet colleagues the central importance of the regimental system to the morale and effectiveness of the British Army as a whole?
Mrs Gillan
My distinguished hon. Friend has himself served in the armed forces, and I agree with him entirely. On 2 June I attended the home-coming parade and the reception in Cardiff for the Queen’s Dragoon Guards as part of the Queen’s diamond jubilee celebrations, and I know that the morale of units that are so closely associated with Wales needs to continue.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
May I first associate myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks about the sacrifice made by all the Welsh men and women who fought for this country? They should never be forgotten in the House or in the country.
I wonder whether the Secretary of State could bring herself to comment on the worrying rumours that, while the Welsh cavalry may well be saved following a campaign across the House, the price that we may pay for that is the loss of one of the battalions of the Royal Welsh, with its 700 jobs in Wales?
Mrs Gillan
Let me just remind the House that the last Labour Government left the MOD budget with a £38 billion black hole, and that it has been brought back into balance for the first time in a generation by this Government. I assure the hon. Gentleman—who is a Johnny-come-lately to this campaign—that I will continue to give my undiluted support to our Welsh regiments, but, as I have said, no decisions have yet been made. There is a great deal of speculation, and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman should make people feel so insecure.
Owen Smith
Despite the bluster, the Secretary of State’s silence on the fate of the Royal Welsh will have been heard throughout the armed forces, including those in Afghanistan, where the 1st Battalion is currently serving. Does she not agree that it will be a truly pyrrhic victory for the QDG if a cap badge is saved in Wales but we lose a battalion with several hundred jobs?
Mrs Gillan
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but let me repeat that no decisions have been made. Let me also repeat that I will take no lessons from a party that got rid of the Royal Welch Fusiliers and the Royal Regiment of Wales. I can take advice from much better people than the hon. Gentleman.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I, too, urge the Secretary of State to make any representations necessary to keep the Royal Welsh, because it recruits very well in its traditional recruitment areas and any loss of a battalion would limit the opportunities for young Welsh people to join an infantry regiment.
Mrs Gillan
I thank my hon. Friend for those remarks. As he knows, there is huge affection for all these regiments. Since the moment I was appointed as Secretary of State for Wales, I have made it my business to visit as many parts of the Army services in Wales as possible, and I continue to support the regiments. This issue is also important as we are seeking to recruit people into the reserves and the Territorial Army. These brigades are a great recruiting sergeant, and long may they continue. Certainly, I will always make that case, although the decision does not rest with this office.
Mr Speaker
Order. The Secretary of State is not conducting a private conversation. If she would be good enough to look in the direction of the House, we might hear her, for which we would all be deeply obliged.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
2. What assessment she has made of the importance of supply chains to manufacturing and engineering in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The Government recognise the high importance of supply chains to the manufacturing and engineering sectors in Wales, both of which are significant components of the Welsh economy.
Neil Carmichael
Does the Minister agree that small and medium-sized enterprises are a key part of the economy, both in Wales and England, and that the Government are absolutely right to focus on making sure they are attached to these supply chains, to develop their products and services further?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend is entirely right to highlight the mutual dependence of supply chains that emanate in England and Welsh manufacturing industry, and vice versa. In fact, Airbus accounts indirectly for about 135,000 jobs. The Welsh Government, to whom economic development is devolved, should be keen to foster those supply chains and, for that purpose, should be working very closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
On Friday, I visited the Orb works in Newport, which, thanks to a very large investment in the supply chain by Tata, is now producing world-class electrical steel, which is good news for the work force and for manufacturing in Newport. Steelmakers in Wales are still experiencing a subdued market, however, as yesterday’s news showed, so what more are the Government doing to help steelmaking in Wales?
Mr Jones
The Government are very closely engaged with the steelmaking industry via UK Trade and Investment, and I would reiterate the point that, given the news we heard yesterday, it is extremely important that the Welsh Assembly Government should work closely with UKTI to foster that industry.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Does the Minister agree that one of the major challenges facing the Welsh economy is the deficit in exports generated in Wales and imported goods and services from other states, as well as from within the UK? What discussions is the Minister having with Cabinet colleagues and the Welsh Government to expand and diversify the Welsh export base—in particular in manufacturing, once a great strength of the Welsh economy?
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to point that out. Over the next few weeks there will be an enormous opportunity for Welsh industry in the shape of the British business embassy, which exporters and importers from all over the world will be attending. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government are now engaging, albeit tentatively, with that embassy, but I urge them to do more.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
3. What discussions she has had with Welsh Government Ministers on the economic outlook for Wales.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
4. What recent assessment she has made of the economy in Wales; and if she will make a statement.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
5. What discussions she has had with Welsh Government Ministers on the economic outlook for Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I have regular discussions with Welsh Government Ministers about the prospects of the Welsh economy and the need for closer working to help create the right environment for jobs, growth and prosperity.
Kerry McCarthy
Youth unemployment in my constituency has gone up by 16% in the last year—not helped by the Government’s scrapping of the future jobs fund. Is it not time that the Welsh Secretary took lessons from the Welsh Government and emulated their jobs growth scheme, started in April, with the aim of creating 4,000 jobs?
Mrs Gillan
I agree that if there are lessons to be learned from the Welsh Government, we must learn them, but the hon. Lady must remember that unemployment is a matter for both the UK Government and the Welsh Government, and under the last Labour Government youth unemployment in Wales rose by 73% over the Parliament.
Robert Halfon
Is my right hon. Friend aware of figures from the Office for National Statistics and the AA showing that more than £16 million could be injected into the Welsh economy this year alone because Labour’s 3p August rise in fuel duty has now been scrapped?
Mrs Gillan
Yes; my hon. Friend knows that the Government have shown that they have listened and are willing to help motorists further with their cost of living by acting at a time when the pump prices are still at historic highs and deferring the increase to January. I pay tribute to him, as he has of course played a great part in the campaign and has, in part, brought about this change by the Government, which will be welcomed throughout Wales, by businesses and families alike.
Andrew Miller
The Secretary of State talks about creating the right environment, and I agree with her on that. She will also recognise that in north-east Wales, Cheshire and the Wirral there is a common travel-to-work area. Will she put her support behind the campaign to improve and upgrade the Wrexham to Bidston line, as that would help to service that travel-to-work area and create the right environment?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman and I used to serve on the Select Committee on Science and Technology together, and I know that he is a constant champion for improving the travel arrangements in and around his area of the country. I have always supported the Wrexham to Bidston line, but I have always prioritised the electrification of the valleys lines and of course that unfinished business of getting the electrification down to Swansea. The electrification of the Wrexham to Bidston line would be close behind that.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Tourism is a crucial sector in the Welsh economy, not least in mid-Wales and Ceredigion. The contrast between the procession of the Olympic torch and the floods that we suffered in Ceredigion could not be any starker. I am appreciative of the Secretary of State’s visit to Ceredigion last week. Will she reiterate the message that the county council gave her, which was that Ceredigion is very much open for business?
Mrs Gillan
I was delighted to accept the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to visit his constituency and look at the aftermath of the floods. It is when the media have left that it gets most difficult for the people who have been affected. I was impressed by the way in which that community has got itself back on its feet, and it certainly is open for business. If anyone is reading the record of or listening to these questions, they should know that his constituency of Ceredigion is one of the best places to take a holiday and that it really is open for business.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
How is the mobility of Welsh labour improved if young people who are leaving the family home, getting on their bikes and taking low-paid work elsewhere are prevented from paying for their housing costs by the Government’s policy?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman and I share the same concern about youth unemployment. The unemployment rate in Wales remains unacceptably high at 9%, but I would have thought that he welcomed the fall in unemployment in Wales for the fourth month in a row. It means that the economy is moving in the right direction for many of the members of the work force who are still looking for work.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend considered the economic impact of having different corporation tax regimes on either side of the English-Welsh border, especially since, as we have heard, there is a single economic sub-region in Cheshire and north-east Wales?
Mrs Gillan
There is huge concern among the businesses that I have talked to about any prospect of changes in the corporation tax rate across the border between England and Wales. As my hon. Friend will know, that relates to the purpose of the Silk commission, which I established and which is looking particularly at the areas of taxation and accountability. I hope that it will report later this year and we will be able to see its recommendations.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Hard-pressed households across Wales will certainly welcome the Chancellor’s latest U-turn on the proposed August increase in fuel duty, but with Office for National Statistics figures today showing that borrowing is rocketing because this Government have created a double-dip recession, will the Secretary of State speak up for struggling businesses in Wales and the 130,000 people still looking for work, and ask the Chancellor to do a U-turn on his economic plans?
Mrs Gillan
I welcome the new Opposition Front-Bench team. I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who stepped down from the Front Bench last month and will be greatly missed. I welcomed the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), the shadow Secretary of State, during the Welsh Grand Committee, but I would like to do so again.
I say to the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) that, in addition to the support we have already announced, the decision that has been made to cut the fuel duty and scrap the previous Government’s fuel duty escalator, thus ensuring that fuel duty is frozen for 21 months, will help businesses and families in Wales. I am very surprised that she did not rise to the Dispatch Box to welcome that.
Mr Speaker
I thank the Secretary of State for that, but we do have quite a lot of questions to get through.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
6. What discussions she has had with Welsh Government Ministers and Assembly Members on the Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I published the Green Paper on future electoral arrangements on 21 May. I have spoken to all four party leaders in the Assembly, including the First Minister, about the Green Paper.
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman would have had the opportunity to discuss that at the Welsh Grand Committee on Monday at 11.30 am, but I understand that Labour objected to the relevant motion yesterday. I now know that that is because Labour MPs have a problem getting up in the morning and getting to work by 11.30 on a Monday—[Interruption.] I have therefore decided to cancel the Welsh Grand Committee and Labour now has the opportunity to call a debate in its own time.
The Prime Minister has met the First Minister on a number of occasions and I believe that that matter, among others, was discussed. I am not aware of any firm commitments made by the Prime Minister.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
7. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on promoting the Welsh identity.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend and I have frequent discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on promoting and capitalising on Wales’ unique identity as a constituent nation of the United Kingdom.
Greg Mulholland
I thank the Minister for that answer. Nothing promotes the Welsh identity better than the wonderfully rousing national anthem “Land of My Fathers,” but it is an affront to the people of Wales when the England team wrongly use the United Kingdom’s national anthem when they play. Does the Minister agree that England should emulate Wales, be clear on the difference between England and the United Kingdom, and introduce a rousing national anthem of our own?
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that as well as Welsh Members of Parliament we are British Members of Parliament and that as Welsh Members of Parliament we should be able to speak and vote on matters that affect our constituents, even those that affect our constituents from over the border? In my case, that includes hospitals, business, transport, defence and other matters.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
8. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and others on the residential construction industry in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on a range of issues, including the construction industry in Wales. I have written to the Welsh Government offering to facilitate discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government to explore the possible extension of the NewBuy scheme to Wales.
John Howell
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the approach to planning and building regulations being adopted by the Labour Welsh Government is having an adverse effect on the construction industry in Wales?
Mr Jones
In Wales, an increasingly onerous planning and building regulations system is developing. Both planning and building regulations are key to the development of new housing and, at a time when England is relaxing that regime, the Welsh Assembly Government are making it more oppressive.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I am rather disappointed that there will be no Welsh Grand Committee on Monday; I do not know whether it is to do with alarm clocks or whatever else. There will be plenty of other opportunities for debating such matters on the Floor of the House in due course and that could have been a good first debate.
The construction industry employs 100,000 people in Wales. Will the Minister please make representations so that renovations are not subject to VAT? The problem is that new build is not subject to it but renovations are, and the vast majority of renovations are carried out by small and medium-sized firms.
Mr Llwyd
I understand that the Welsh Government and the Treasury are currently discussing the whole issue of the Barnett formula and the housing revenue account subsidy scheme. That has been done away with in England, and never existed in Scotland or Northern Ireland. It cost Wales £73 million last year—money that could have been put to good use repairing council homes. Will he please further these discussions?
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
Regional pay affects local economies in the poorest regions of Wales. Does the Minister agree that construction workers and construction firms in north-west Wales, in Cemaes bay and Colwyn bay, should be paid the same as those in Torbay and Buckinghamshire, as should teachers in those areas?
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. Let us have a bit of order for Mr David Rutley.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
9. What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues and Ministers in the Welsh Government on improving broadband infrastructure in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend has regular discussions with ministerial colleagues, Welsh Government Ministers and other interested parties on improving broadband infrastructure in Wales.
David Rutley
Superfast broadband is an important priority in Macclesfield in our rural communities, just as it is in towns and villages across Wales. Is my hon. Friend disappointed that the Labour Welsh Government still have not announced the preferred bidder for the next-generation broadband for Wales project despite having promised to do so in December last year?
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
How will the Minister ensure that BT is not the monopoly supplier of broadband in north Wales?
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
10. What discussions she has had with the First Minister on the effectiveness in Wales of the Human Trafficking Commissioner.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Combating human trafficking is a key priority for the Government, and we fully recognise the importance of tackling the issue in Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not discussed this issue with the First Minister, although she has met the anti-human trafficking co-ordinator for Wales. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. These are extremely serious matters. I think people would expect us to treat them with some seriousness and to listen to Mr Peter Bone.
Mr Jones
The principal reason that Wales has an anti-human trafficking co-ordinator is that, while policing and justice are undevolved, such issues as child care are devolved. It therefore makes sense for there to be a co-ordinator in Wales. In England, where there is no such issue of devolution, the question does not arise.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
11. What recent progress has been made by the commission on the consequences of devolution for the House of Commons.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
The commission expects to report during the current parliamentary Session.
Harriett Baldwin
Would the Secretary of State like to tell the House what evidence she has given to the commission?
Mrs Gillan
So far I have not been asked to give any evidence to the commission, but I understand that there will be a long discussion about the issue. I know that my hon. Friend is especially keen to give evidence and to provide information to the commission, and I am sure that she will have that opportunity.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
On devolution, does the Secretary of State agree that any fundamental change to the voting system for the Assembly must at least have broad inter-party consensus and the agreement of the Welsh Government to avoid another referendum, because the system was endorsed by the 1997 referendum?
Mrs Gillan
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber when I paid tribute to him, but I hope that he will read the Hansard report. We will miss him on the Front Bench.
The legislation governing any changes to the electoral voting system for the Assembly was put in place by a Labour Government. The power clearly remains here. Had the intention been different, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would have changed the situation himself through the Government of Wales Act 2006.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 27 June.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. We have been discussing this issue for 100 years, and it really is time to make progress. The truth of the matter is that there are opponents of Lords reform in every party—in the Conservative party, in the Labour party and in the Liberal Democrats in the other place—but there is a majority in this House for a mainly elected House of Lords, and I believe that there is a majority for that in the country. However, if those who support Lords reform do not get out there and back it, it will not happen—that is the crucial point. It is absolutely hopeless—in life and in politics—to do what the Leader of the Opposition is doing: saying that he is in favour of it and he is also against it. It is hopeless.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
The Prime Minister said on 11 April:
“I will defend every part of that Budget. I worked on it very closely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer line by line.”
What went wrong?
The Prime Minister
The fuel duty increase was a Labour tax rise—[Hon. Members: “U-turn!”] It cannot be a U-turn to get rid of a Labour tax increase. They put in place 12 fuel duty increases in government, they left behind six increases in fuel duty, and I am proud of the fact that we are dealing with them.
Edward Miliband
Then it was all part of a seamless political strategy. Unfortunately, they forgot to tell the Transport Secretary, who went out and defended the increase; they forgot to tell the Cabinet in the morning, although the Chancellor briefed it on the economic situation; and they forgot to tell their own Back Benchers, and sent them out to defend the old policy. Let us call it what it is: another case of panic at the pumps. Month after month, every time Labour Members have proposed putting more money in people’s pockets to get the economy moving, the Prime Minister has denounced the policy as irresponsible, yet yesterday the Chancellor said that this was about doing precisely that. Why does not the Prime Minister admit it—plan A has failed?
The Prime Minister
Does the right hon. Gentleman support stopping the fuel increase? Yes? Then why not get up and congratulate the Government on being on the side of the motorist and the people who work hard and do the right thing? That is who we are helping. Ever since we came to office, we have been defusing Labour’s tax bombshell. We defused their jobs tax and their increases in council tax, and we have defused their increases in fuel tax. Labour Members should be congratulating us on being on the side of those who work hard and do the right thing.
Edward Miliband
I am afraid it is back to the bunker after that answer. Even on this Government’s own measure of success, borrowing went up yesterday. No wonder they want to change the exam system—the Chancellor cannot get the maths right. Can the Prime Minister confirm that the reason this Government have had to borrow £3 billion more than this time last year is that tax revenues are down and the costs of economic failure are going up? It is all the result of double-dip recession made in Downing street.
The Prime Minister
So on fuel tax, the right hon. Gentleman is against it, though he is in favour of it, and on borrowing, he thinks it is too high but he wants to put it up. I think it is back to school.
Edward Miliband
I know the Prime Minister finds the shadow Chancellor irritating, but it was the shadow Chancellor who called for the fuel duty cut before he did it. The Government are not just economically incompetent; they are unfair as well. The right hon. Gentleman has made six U-turns, but not on two particular decisions in his Budget—the tax cut for millionaires, paid for by the tax rise on pensioners. He says he has been listening to the electorate. What feedback has he had on those two particular proposals?
The Prime Minister
On the shadow Chancellor, he is the man who put the fuel tax increase into the Budget in the first place. What we have been doing is getting rid of Labour’s tax increases. The Leader of the Opposition asks me about the top rate of tax. I think it is wrong to have a top rate of tax that is higher than that of France, Germany or Italy. For 13 years of a Labour Government in which he served, the top rate of tax was 40p. The top rate of tax is now going to be 45p. Again, I think a “Thank you” would be in order.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister claims to be part of the way in which the decision on the fuel tax was made. The Chancellor hid away yesterday, refusing to defend the decision. No wonder—[Interruption.] The Chancellor yesterday sent out the Economic Secretary to do all the interviews on the issue. It is no wonder the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) said this:
“I…didn’t see Newsnight, however, if Osborne sent Chloe on…he is a coward as well as arrogant.”
So there is no change on the tax cut for millionaires. Does not the Prime Minister realise that what people hate about this Government is the double standards when they say that tax avoidance is immoral but it is okay, when so many people are struggling to get by, to give a tax cut to millionaires, including the millionaires in the Cabinet?
The Prime Minister
The Leader of the Opposition says that the Chancellor was hiding away. The Chancellor was announcing the tax reduction from the Dispatch Box. I know that the House of Commons does not always get reported, but my right hon. Friend was here making the announcement and, I have to say, completely wrong-footing the shadow Chancellor. What we have heard today from the Leader of the Opposition is a whole series of arguments about process—process about the House of Lords, where he is wrong on the substance; process about the economy, where he is wrong on the substance; process about the deficit, when he wants to put the borrowing up. Absolutely hopeless.
Edward Miliband
This is about an economic plan that is failing, and it is about the unfairness of this Government. The Prime Minister talks about the tax affairs of Jimmy Carr, but he is giving a tax cut to millionaires of £40,000 a year across this country, including in his own Cabinet. When it comes to tax, it is obviously one rule for the comedians on the stage and another rule for the comedians in the Cabinet. The Prime Minister has spent the past week blundering into the tax affairs of Jimmy Carr, his Budget unravelling, his economic plan failing. From the country’s point of view, it is a shambles. From his point of view, it is just another week at the office.
The Prime Minister
I am not at all surprised that the right hon. Gentleman is touchy about the issue of tax avoidance, because who have they just voted to the top of the list of the national executive committee? Ken Livingstone. It is this Government who are cracking down on aggressive and illegal tax avoidance and tax evasion, and it is the Opposition who are voting for them.
Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
The International Development Committee spent last week in Afghanistan and would pay tribute to the dedication of our armed forces and civil servants working under very difficult conditions. At the Tokyo conference next month, will the Prime Minister reassure the people of Afghanistan that although troop drawdown will end in 2014, advice, support and development assistance will continue for years beyond that, so Afghanistan can become a functioning state that delivers for its people?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. He talks about our armed services, and today is the day that we encourage people who serve to wear their uniform to work—not something that Members of this House can do, but none the less we should remember all those who serve our country, whether in the reserves or the regular forces.
On the issue of support for Afghanistan, we have already announced that we will continue with the generous level of aid and development support that we are giving to Afghanistan after 2015—we have very much been leading the charge on that—as well as helping to fund the build-up of the Afghan national security forces between now and 2015.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
Q2. What is the moral difference between celebrities avoiding tax and a Cabinet of millionaires cutting tax to benefit themselves?
The Prime Minister
Perhaps the best way to answer that question is to quote the hon. Lady’s own leader, who at the launch of his local election campaign said:
“Tax avoidance is a terrible thing. It must be cracked down on.”
That, I thought, was the official position of the Labour party. It should be thanking us for getting on and doing just that.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
Q3. I welcome the decision not to increase fuel duty. Does the Prime Minister think that this shows hard-pressed families and businesses that we mean business about refuelling growth?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is this Government who have taken 2 million of the lowest paid people out of income tax, frozen the council tax, got rid of Labour’s job tax and repeatedly dealt with fuel duty, so it is 10p less than it would be under the plans left to us by the last Labour Government.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
Q4. Can we return to the theme of practicalities and tax avoidance? One way in which the Prime Minister could put an end to aggressive tax avoidance schemes is to legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle, not a general rule. Will he make one more U-turn and back up his expression of public outrage with real action and legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle?
The Prime Minister
Legislating on a general anti-avoidance rule is exactly what we are doing, exactly what Labour did not do for 13 years, and I look forward to welcoming the hon. Gentleman into our Division Lobby.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Q5. Unemployment in my constituency has reduced by 5.7% in the last year as a result of this Government’s work to reduce unemployment and make sure that we are focusing on the right things to deliver economic growth, unlike the Opposition who have no innovative solution to the economic issue. [Interruption.] Additional growth will come from new businesses. [Interruption.] What are the Government doing to encourage teaching enterprise in schools to nurture the next generation of entrepreneurs?
The Prime Minister
It is quite clear that the Opposition just want to shout down anyone who wants to talk up what is happening in our economy. In the last quarter we saw 200,000 new private sector jobs, which was more than four times the rate of growth that we saw in terms of the decline in the public sector. We are seeing a rebalancing of our economy, and 2011 was a record year for the creation of new small businesses in our country, and on this side of the House at least we are in favour of encouraging that.
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
The coalition agreement stated that the Government would introduce a House business committee by the third year of this Parliament. Will the Prime Minister therefore confirm to the House that he will introduce it within the next 12 months?
The Prime Minister
We are looking carefully at this issue. Let me just say to the right hon. Gentleman, who has served as a Minister and a Back-Bench MP, that this Government, by introducing the Back-Bench days and Back-Bench business, have already made one of the most fundamental reforms of this place. Back-Bench Members are able to determine both the time and subject of debate, something that never happened under 13 years of the Labour Government.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Q6. What assessment he has made of the level of public awareness of gift aid declaration forms.
The Prime Minister
Gift aid is an important way of supporting charitable giving through the tax system. We know that charities can have difficulties collecting gift aid declarations, for example when collecting donations in the street. That is why we are introducing the gift aid small donations scheme, which will enable charities to claim a gift aid-style payment on donations when it has not been possible to collect a gift aid declaration. We think that will help charities in many parts of our country and, I am sure, will be welcome on both sides of the House.
Dr Wollaston
I thank the Prime Minister for that answer. Community hospitals across Britain benefit greatly from gift aid donations through their leagues of friends. Will he reassure all those who give so generously that the equipment and facilities they fund will be guaranteed to remain for the benefit of local health communities, and may I invite him to visit a community hospital in my constituency to see gift aid in action?
The Prime Minister
I have visited a community hospital in my hon. Friend’s constituency while having a holiday there and so have some experience of the excellent service provided in south Devon. I absolutely can say that leagues of friends do a brilliant job across the country and the money they provide for that equipment should remain local. I think that the gift aid change we have announced will be able to help hospitals and leagues of friends such as the one she refers to.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Q7. The Prime Minister has not had time to reach a judgment on the tax affairs of Gary Barlow—he is a busy man—but he has had years to consider those of massive Conservative donor Lord Ashcroft. Are they morally wrong, like Jimmy Carr?
The Prime Minister
Like all Members of both Houses of Parliament, all peers have to be full UK taxpayers. That is a change I fully support. While we are on this subject, the hon. Gentleman might want to have a little look at Labour’s chief fundraiser, a man called Andrew Rosenfeld. Between the years of 2006 and 2011 he lived in which key marginal seat? Anyone? Zurich.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman deserves to be heard. There has been far too much noise today when Members have been asking their questions. It is discourteous. Let us hear Mr Bernard Jenkin.
Mr Jenkin
Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to remind the House that there is a crucial EU summit at the end of this week? Which is more important for UK growth and jobs: the implications of the massive changes being proposed in the EU or House of Lords reform?
The Prime Minister
Clearly, in terms of growth in the UK economy, what is happening in the eurozone and in Europe is extremely important, and it is a very vital summit that is taking place this Thursday and Friday. The UK Government have a very clear view: the eurozone countries need to do more in the short term to settle the financial instability in the markets, but they also need to take medium and longer-term steps to make sense of the eurozone. That will involve them sharing greater powers, but that is something the UK should not be involved in. I think that we have a very clear view: we push forward our arguments with great vigour and we protect and defend the UK economy and political system at the same time.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Q8. Every hour of every day somebody is killed by a weapon that has been irresponsibly traded from one country to another. Next week the arms trade treaty negotiations start in New York. Will the Prime Minister make sure and guarantee that the British delegation fights for the inclusion in the treaty of not only police and security apparatus that can be used for internal repression, but ammunition, which is vital? It is bullets that kill.
The Prime Minister
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we back the arms trade treaty, as we have done for a considerable amount of time, and lobby very vigorously on that issue. On the specific point he raises, I will look at it and write to him.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
On Friday night, the towns of Bacup, Crawshawbooth and Darwen were subject to unprecedented flooding when the River Irwell and the River Darwen burst their banks at the same time. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the emergency services on working through the night and, in particular, the residents of Crawshawbooth, who came out in the morning to clean up their village so that it was able to welcome the Olympic torch less than 12 hours later?
The Prime Minister
I certainly join my hon. Friend in praising the emergency services. These were really very dangerous and damaging floods, caused by a huge amount of rainfall over a very short period. The emergency services performed superbly, and I hope to go and see that for myself, but now we are in the recovery phase and the phase when people start to look at going back into their homes. There will be all sorts of questions about insurance and about how we can help, and I am sure that he will make those arguments in the House and that the Government will do all they can to help.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Q9. Will the Prime Minister finally answer the question why this year to date this Government have actually borrowed £3.9 billion more than they had by this time last year?
The Prime Minister
The deficit, which the hon. Gentleman and his party left, is down by a quarter, and the policy that he supports is to spend more, to borrow more and to put the debt up even further.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Q10. Seventeen-year-old Godwin Lawson, from Enfield, was tragically stabbed to death in 2010. Since then his mother, Yvonne, has become a powerful force for challenging the culture of knife crime, by sharing her experiences of her son’s death with young people in schools. She, like many groups on the front line of knife crime, can make an extraordinary contribution to challenging that culture, but some authorities are not yet getting behind them by supporting and offering funding to achieve that aim. Will the Prime Minister lend his support and encouragement to those people and to the councils to get behind them?
The Prime Minister
I will certainly give my support to Yvonne Lawson and to all those who are playing such a heroic role in trying to change the culture of knife crime and of carrying knives in our country. It is worth remembering that this year, for instance, Ben Kinsella would have been 21, and I pay tribute to Brooke Kinsella and to all such family members. It would in many ways be easier for them to try to turn away from the tragedy that robbed them of their children, their brothers and their sisters, but instead they campaign and show immense bravery, raising the profile of the issue. The Government must play their part by making sure that there are tough mandatory sentences, and we are and have done that, but a larger culture change needs to take place, and the bravery of those who have lost loved ones—going into schools and talking about the dangers of carrying knives—can play a huge role in that.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
The Prime Minister will be aware of the horrific explosion that occurred in Shaw in my constituency yesterday. I am sure the whole House will want to pay tribute to, and mourn the death of, two-year-old Jamie Heaton and to send its best wishes to burns victim, Andy Partington. Will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to the work of the emergency services that attended the event yesterday, work that I witnessed first hand, as well as to Oldham council’s civil contingency service and to the Red Cross? Does he agree that we must never take for granted the courage and bravery of those servicemen and women?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to speak as she does, and I am sure the whole House will want to send a message of sympathy and condolences to the family of that poor two-year-old, who lost his life, and also our best wishes to the burns victim who is in hospital being treated at the moment. The scenes of what had happened as a result of that explosion were really quite appalling to see on our televisions, and I certainly join her in paying tribute to the emergency services. I also wish all speed to the police in getting to the bottom of anything that might have happened or gone on. Everyone will require answers to what has been an absolute tragedy.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
Q11. The Calder Valley flood victims Facebook page and the Community Foundation for Calderdale JustGiving page show great community spirit, and the fact that the arts festival, Mytholmroyd gala and handmade parade are all going ahead this week shows the community’s resilience and, also, that the Calder Valley is open for business. Can my right hon. Friend update our flooded communities on how negotiations are going with the insurance industry, so that they can get insurance in the future and at a reasonable price?
The Prime Minister
I quite understand why my hon. Friend wants to raise that issue. I believe that more than 550 properties in his constituency alone were affected by these really damaging and dangerous floods. On flood insurance, we are going to work very hard with the industry to continue to deliver widely available and affordable household insurance in flood-risk areas. I absolutely join him in praising the resilience of his community, having suffered as my constituency suffered in 2007. Although the recovery from floods is extremely difficult, the resilience of our communities and the amount of public and community service that comes out of them is remarkable and deserves our praise.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Twenty years ago this week, the giant Ravenscraig steelworks in my constituency was forced to close. Thousands of steelmaking jobs were lost, and sadly many of my former steelworking colleagues never found work again. Twenty years on, will the Prime Minister apologise for his party’s shameful role in the demise of the Scottish steel industry?
The Prime Minister
I am sorry for every job that has been lost in manufacturing industry over a very long period of time. I would say, though, that while manufacturing as a share of the economy almost halved under the previous Government, that share is now increasing. It is worth recognising that under this Government the steel industry has started up again on Teesside, and that is something that the whole House should applaud.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
Q12. Hereford is the home of the SAS, and 19 July will be the 40th anniversary of the battle of Mirbat, in which nine SAS soldiers fought off more than 300 heavily armed guerrillas. During the battle, Sergeant Talaiasi Labalaba was shot while single-handedly operating a 25 lb field gun—a weapon designed for a six-man team. Successive Governments have declined to recognise the extraordinary nature of his sacrifice. The SAS has many heroes, but will the Prime Minister finally put this matter to rest and give his support to the campaign to award Sergeant Labalaba the posthumous Victoria Cross that he so clearly earned?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right to speak up for the SAS, which, as he says, is based in his constituency, and the extraordinary fight that those soldiers had in Oman all those years ago. We are not allowed to speak a lot on the record about what they do, but it is worth putting on the record the immense gratitude of all Governments and, I think, the entire British people for the risks they take on our behalf. Thinking of the recent hostage rescue, I would like to do that personally. Regarding my hon. Friend’s question, these sorts of decisions are not for politicians to make, but let me once again pay tribute to the heroic actions of that man and everyone involved on that day.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
Q13. Is the Prime Minister bringing back O-levels and CSE-style exams?
The Prime Minister
What my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary explained in great detail in yesterday’s debate is that we want to have in our country an absolute gold standard of exams that are about rigour and high standards. The tragedy is that we inherited from the previous Government a system that was being progressively dumbed down, where Britain was falling down the league tables and GCSE questions included things such as, “How do you see the moon—is it through a telescope or a microscope?” Government Members think we need a rigorous system, and that is what we are going to put in place.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Q14. The exciting Goonhilly space science and technology park in my constituency richly deserves the conditional regional growth fund approval that will secure vital jobs and inward international investment into the UK, and will harmonise with the Government’s welcome and crucial commitment to space sector growth. Will the Prime Minister please use his influence to ensure that there is no—I am sorry to say—further avoidable delay in the implementation of the RGF grant and the launch of this vitally important enterprise?
The Prime Minister
I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend says. Almost 60% of regional growth fund projects are now under way, and the money has been distributed in very many cases, but I will look specifically at this project, which does sound interesting and worth while. As I understand it, it involves radio astronomy and satellite management. It will bring to Cornwall high-tech jobs that it wants and needs, so I will do my best to make sure it happens.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
A third of south-east London health care trusts’ deficit is due to the private finance initiative. Is not the Secretary of State for Health wrong to suggest that the entire deficit is due to the PFI? Should he not be working with local health managers to deal with the situation rather than imposing an outside administrator to cut local health services?
The Prime Minister
First, it is this Government who are putting more money into the NHS this year, next year, and the year after. Some of these NHS trusts, such as the one the hon. Gentleman mentions, do have enormous deficits, and a large part of that is down to the completely failed PFI systems that the previous Government put in place. In hospitals up and down the country, it costs £120 to reset an alarm, £466 to replace a light fitting—[Interruption.] Labour Members are shouting from a sedentary position that these were Conservative PFIs. They were not—every single one of them was put in place under a Labour Government. Yet again, time for an apology.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that the way to tackle aggressive tax avoidance is to bring in flatter, fairer taxes?
The Prime Minister
I certainly support flatter, fairer taxes. That is why we have taken 2 million people out of income tax and why we have a lower top rate of tax to make us competitive with the rest of the world. It is important to put it clearly on the record that tax evasion is illegal and wrong, and should be chased down, and that, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has said, some of the tax avoidance schemes that have been put in place in recent years are very questionable. The Government should be absolutely clear that the Revenue’s task is to close those schemes down and to ensure that people pay their taxes properly.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
In December last year, this House passed a motion calling for a Bill to make urgent reforms to our deeply unfair extradition treaties. Nearly seven months later, there has been no Bill and no action. What makes the Prime Minister more uncomfortable: ignoring the will of the House for months on end or the plight of those facing imminent extradition?
The Prime Minister
We held the Scott Baker review, which looked carefully at the extradition arrangements. The hon. Lady should of course look at some of the cases that have caused concern, but I urge her to look also at the overall figures, which show that we are benefiting by being able to extradite people who have committed serious crimes from the US back to the UK. We continue to look at this issue. We will ensure that we do the right thing for our country, but people should not think that it is a very simple issue, because it is not.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will the Prime Minister congratulate the excellent Secretary of State for International Development on producing a flag that will replace the European Union logo on all our overseas aid? He should be thoroughly congratulated.
The Prime Minister
I am sure that, like myself, my hon. Friend—and probably Mrs Bone as well—got the “Dear colleague” letter from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State with his excellent new logo. It shows that the aid that we send is provided not on behalf of the British Government, but on behalf of all British people, who I think support the fact that Britain stands for something in the world: we stand for helping the poorest in our world, even as we have a difficult time in our own country.
Points of Order
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. CCS Media in my constituency is a major supplier to South London Healthcare NHS Trust. It contacted me yesterday to try to get assurances that its bills will still be paid in the light of the recent unpleasant news. I have had a letter back from the Department of Health that offers no such assurance and states that the Department is discussing the point with lawyers. It is fundamental that the companies that supply the NHS trust know that they will be paid for the services they provide. Has Mr Speaker been notified of any intention to make a statement so that companies can be reassured that they will be paid for the services they provide to the NHS?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
No notice of such a statement has been given to the Chair. As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, the other part of his question was not a point of order for the Chair. I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard what he had to say.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I know that the Prime Minister would not want to mislead the House. Will you tell me how I might put on record the fact that the private finance initiative for Queen Elizabeth hospital in south-east London was advertised in the Official Journal of the European Community on 1 March 1995 under the previous Conservative Government?
Mr Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has put his point on the record. We are obviously not going to open up that point again.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I notice that in the presentation of Bills, the first Bill relates to their lordships’ House. I note that in some of the earlier editions of “Erskine May”, it is deemed proper that Bills relating to another place should be presented there first as a matter of courtesy. I wonder whether you would guide us as to why that courtesy is not being observed, when it was abandoned, and whether Her Majesty’s Government might wish to have better manners in future.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Obviously, we both have an interest in next door. However, the hon. Gentleman did state that he was referring to “earlier editions”. We have since moved on.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is a matter of courtesy, and I would have thought that courtesy was timeless. The fact that it has been omitted from subsequent editions does not mean that it is no longer important.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Courtesy has been expressed, as we all know, but as we said earlier, “Erskine May” has moved on, and it is time for the House to move on.
Bills Presented
House of Lords Reform Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
The Deputy Prime Minister, supported by The Prime Minister, Mr Secretary Hague, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Secretary Kenneth Clarke, Secretary Michael Moore, Danny Alexander, Sir George Young and Mr Mark Harper, presented a Bill to make provision about the membership of the House of Lords; to make provision about the disclaimer of life peerages; to abolish the jurisdiction of the House of Lords in relation to peerage claims; to make other provision relating to peerage; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 52) with explanatory notes (Bill 52-EN).
Recall of Elected Representatives Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Zac Goldsmith presented a Bill to permit voters to recall their elected representatives in specified circumstances; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 30 November 2012, and to be printed (Bill 50).
European Union Act 2011 (amendment) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr William Cash, supported by Mr John Redwood, Mr Bernard Jenkin, Mr John Whittingdale, Mr Greg Knight, Mr Graham Stuart, Mr John Baron, Mr Richard Shepherd, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Mr Peter Bone, Chris Heaton-Harris and Zac Goldsmith, presented a Bill to apply the terms of the European Union Act 2011 such as to require approval by Act of Parliament and by referendum of provisions for creating a fiscal union or economic governance within the Eurozone.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 July, and to be printed (Bill 53).
Electoral Registration and Administration Bill
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
13:28 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 188 / Noes: 266 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:00 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 211 / Noes: 284 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:15 - The Committee having divided: - Ayes: 204 / Noes: 293 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:42 - The House having divided: - Ayes: 284 / Noes: 204 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 39, page 21, line 23, leave out sub-paragraph (2).
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 35, page 21, line 23, leave out—
‘, so far as is reasonably practicable,’.
The amendment makes registration officers subject to the test of taking ‘all steps that are necessary’ under section 9A of the 1983 Act, in respect of their new duty: ‘securing that persons who are entitled to be registered in a register (and no others) are registered in it’.
Amendment 37, page 21, line 26, at end insert—
‘(4) In subsection (2), after paragraph (e), insert—
“(f) reporting to the police any suspicion he might have that an offence had been committed relevant to the integrity of registration and absent vote applications.”.’.
Amendment 40, page 21, line 26, at end insert—
‘(4) At the end of subsection (3) insert—
(4) If the Electoral Commission judges that registration officers have not taken all necessary steps as outlined in this section, the Electoral Commission shall have the power to intervene.”.’.
Wayne David
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hoyle.
The Opposition have tabled the amendments because we are concerned about the schedule. Like the Electoral Commission, we are concerned about the watering down of the responsibilities of electoral registration officers. We think it is important that the Bill clearly defines the role of EROs in individual electoral registration and afterwards.
Amendment 37 seeks to redress what the Opposition see as a deficiency in the law—there is a lack of powers vested in EROs to detect and investigate electoral fraud, so allegations of offences under electoral law should be made to the police. That leaves a large gap in the powers of EROs. The amendment would, for the first time, place a duty on EROs to report to the police any suspicions that an offence might have been committed.
That is important. The Government have said time and again—incorrectly—that the Opposition are concerned about completeness and nothing else. We are concerned about completeness, but we are also concerned about the accuracy of electoral registers. The surest way to detect and act upon alleged fraud is for the individuals responsible for the administration of the process of registration to have a power vested in them—a duty upon them—to say that they are concerned about something. If they, as the experts, are concerned, they would have a duty to pass that information directly to the police, who would then act. We think, then, that the amendment addresses a gap in the current legislation and the Bill.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I support the amendment. Locally, EROs might be faced with competing local interests and not wish to offend a particular group, which is why this is extremely important. If there is a duty on them, they will have to act when allegations are made or serious offences committed. If they do not have a duty, they will tend to want to retain the status quo in order not to upset anybody.
Wayne David
My right hon. Friend makes a fair point. In a sense, the amendment would remove the discretion that EROs might feel they have and which often places them in an invidious position. As I have said, it is important not to exaggerate the occurrence of fraud, but if EROs have genuine concerns, they should have a duty to pass that information on to the police.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
I support what my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said. This matter is incredibly important at a time of resource restraint in local authorities. When resources are tight, there is always a tendency to defer decisions, but if EROs were required to act under the legislation, they would be unable to cite resource difficulties as an excuse for not taking action.
Wayne David
Yes, that is another good point. We all recognise that cash is short for local authorities. Indeed, we have highlighted during the passage of the Bill our particular concern that local authorities might not place the necessary emphasis on the registration process because of competing financial demands from other departments, which further reinforces my point that it is reasonable to place this statutory responsibility on EROs. Were they, in the course of their work, to come across a matter of genuine concern, they would not have to make a subjective decision about whether the matter was worth pursuing, but instead, if it was a serious concern, would have to pass it directly to the police, who would then investigate and consider the appropriate action to take.
Amendment 39 seeks to address the Electoral Commission’s concern that schedule 4 waters down the provisions in the Representation of the People Act 1983 requiring EROs to take all necessary steps in carrying out their duties. We are particularly concerned about door-to-door canvassing. As our debate the other day highlighted, this is an important area. We can talk about the introduction of new technology, which is to be welcomed, and about the importance of providing accurate literature and regular mailings, but, at the end of the day, the door-to-door canvass is vital and an essential part of the armoury of individual EROs in moving towards as complete a register as possible.
I am sure that the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) will speak to his amendment 35, but I would say in passing that we have a lot of sympathy with the point behind it and, I am sure, the other points he will make in a moment.
Amendment 40 relates to amendment 39 and aims to give effect to our request to give the Electoral Commission the power to intervene where EROs are not performing to a sufficiently high standard. This is an important amendment because it is vital that best practice be promoted, enhanced, defended and maintained whenever possible.
Keith Vaz
I again endorse again what my hon. Friend says, as we all have experience of turning up to counts and meeting electoral registration officers and others involved in the process, some of whom, to be perfectly frank, do not have the training and experience to deal with these situations. Amendment 40 would not only enable the sharing of good practice but ensure that if people are perhaps not doing their jobs as effectively as they could, the commission at least had the power to try to put things right.
Wayne David
Yes, my colleague makes a very astute point borne out of his own experience. All of us who have been involved in democratic politics for a number of years can testify to that. The standard of EROs’ work varies enormously, so we need to ensure that everything possible is done to secure higher standards to reinforce the democratic process. Giving the Electoral Commission a key role and a key power in this respect will be important both for building up confidence and for ensuring that the system is as effective as possible.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Is it not the case that the Electoral Commission already has the right to evaluate how well electoral registration officers are carrying out their duties, but that it is not allowed as of today to intervene where poor practice is standard? The amendment would deal with that problem and give the Electoral Commission the opportunity to put right what it can see is going very wrong.
Wayne David
That is indeed correct. We have expressed on a number of occasions in Committee our worry that the Government do not recognise the important role that the Electoral Commission must have in a number of important respects. There is a weakness in the legislation as drafted, particularly regarding the role of EROs. This amendment is designed to plug that gap and make sure that the absolutely central role that the Electoral Commission has to play is built directly into the Bill, particularly in respect of the standards we believe it necessary for EROs to achieve in the furtherance of their duties.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I shall address my brief remarks to my amendment 35. It is a probing amendment, whose purpose is to raise and discuss concerns that have already been expressed about the duties of electoral registration officers. A constant theme running through all our Committee discussions so far has been the capacity of EROs to deliver their duties responsibly and effectively to ensure both the accuracy and completeness of the electoral list.
On Monday, we discussed the different approaches taken by local authorities and the need for some measure of standardisation—in the invitations sent out to encourage people to register, for instance. Local authorities have acted in different ways, but it is important to maintain the obligation on all EROs across the country to get everyone entitled to register to do so. I think all parties are agreed on that objective, but there has been some concern that the Bill as it stands will not achieve it. The Electoral Commission, among others, is concerned that schedule 4 will “dilute”—its word—the current responsibilities and requirements of EROs. That is particularly worrying given the findings of the Electoral Commission’s “Report on performance of Electoral Registration Officers” in Great Britain, published in June 2012. As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), it expressed particular concern about the issue of house-to-house inquiries, stating:
“ Currently, section 9A(1) requires an ERO to take ‘all steps that are necessary for the purpose of complying with his duty to maintain the register under section 9’.
Section 9A contains a list of non-exhaustive steps which include, on occasions, making more than one visit through house-to-house inquiries.
The Electoral Commission feels that the duty in its current form works well and is an important tool in ensuring that EROs do all the work that is necessary to guarantee accuracy and completeness, including the conducting of house-to-house inquiries when, critically, other methods—we have heard a great deal about, for instance, data-matching pilots and aspirations for online voting—have not yielded the appropriate information. The commission remains baffled by why the Government would want to change the present arrangement.
Wayne David
The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case—so powerful, indeed, that we hope that he will press the amendment to a vote, but if he does not do so, we will.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath)
After the Committee has heard my reply.
Mr Williams
As my hon. Friend says, we must hear what he has to say on the subject first. His intervention is timely, as I am now moved to speculate on what he may say.
Schedule 4(6) adds to section 9A the words
“and for the purpose of securing that, so far as is reasonably practicable, persons who are entitled to be registered in a register (and no others) are registered in it”.
I know that the Government are content with that, feeling that it strengthens the responsibilities that EROs already have, but what risk, I ask my hon. Friend, does the change pose to the accuracy and completeness of the register? I feel that my amendment 35, which deletes the phrase
“so far as is reasonably practical”,
buttresses the obligation of EROs to secure persons who are entitled to be included in the register.
Let me reiterate to my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly—for he is my friend—that mine is a probing amendment, and that, as I said at the outset, I am seeking to clarify these matters for the benefit of those of us who have discussed their concerns with the Electoral Commission. Certainly there is no good reason to reduce the duty imposed on EROs, and, if anything—given the tone of our debate and the cross-party aspiration that has been expressed—we should be enhancing and strengthening it. I should be grateful if the Minister explained the reasoning behind the changes in the Bill, and how they would affect EROs’ current obligations.
It seems to me that the Bill in its current form has the potential to weaken the principle of maximising registration, which would undermine what the Government are attempting to do. I do not believe for a moment that that is their intention, but I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
We have heard from other Members about the expectations that we have of EROs, and the performance standards that are used to assess their role. Let me refer again to the Electoral Commission’s report. Performance standard 3 refers to
“house-to-house enquiries to ensure that all eligible residents are registered.”
Although the Electoral Commission observed that progress had been made—
“the number of EROs who reported meeting or exceeding this standard increased between 2008 and 2010”—
eight EROs did not meet the standard. The commission stated that it had been able to contact them and remind them of their responsibility to “take all necessary steps”. It also stated that in 2011, for a range of reasons, it had heard anecdotal evidence suggesting that a greater number of EROs might not have met the standard in that year, and might not have taken “all necessary steps”. That prompted it to do some research. It contacted EROs and asked them whether they had carried out a personal canvass of all non-responders, and 58 replied citing budgetary restraints and rurality.
There is clearly continuing concern about house-to-house inquiries. The Electoral Commission is worried enough about the present set-up and the present wording of the legislation, but it fears that the position could worsen as a result of the new wording.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
It is obvious from the attendance in the Chamber that the issues we are discussing are hardly setting the heather alight, but they are nevertheless important in the context of the relationship between central and local government. I think that Members in all parts of the Committee agree that there has been substantial consultation on the Bill, and that many key stakeholders—not least the Electoral Commission—have had an opportunity to draw on real-life experience for their prognostications and recommendations. However, I think that the amendments tabled by the hon. Members for Caerphilly (Wayne David) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) risk changing a permissive, directional approach from the centre to the Electoral Commission vis-à-vis electoral returning officers to a much more oppressive approach, which would not take into consideration the differences that exist throughout the country in districts, boroughs and cities.
I think that had the Government not taken account of the experience of May 2010—for instance, the performance of EROs at polling stations and the administrative arrangements that caused difficulties in areas such as Sheffield and Hackney—it would have been fair to comment on their performance with regard to registration. However, the Bill does take account of that experience, not least in clause 17, which refers to the
“Inadequate performance of returning officer”.
One of the problems of being too prescriptive and draconian, and including in legislation what is effectively a direction to EROs, is that it fetters their discretion and allows central Government, through the Cabinet Office, to instruct them to do things that may not be appropriate in their areas. The data-matching projects are a good example. In my constituency, there were high levels of registration during our pilot project for the Electoral Commission because there was a very thorough door-to-door canvass. However, it should be borne in mind that the actual matching to the DWP and other databases was only 54% in Peterborough, and that it may be significantly higher in other parts of the country.
I think that it would be wrong to instruct electoral registration officers, who are typically chief executives or borough, city or district solicitors, that the fall-back position should be that they are not doing their job properly and not adhering to the existing legislation. The Bill in its present form recognises that it is imperative to maximise the number of people on the electoral register—and we all welcome that because we believe that it is important to democracy and future civic engagement—while also giving discretion to individuals at local level.
Mr Love
I have been listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s argument. Is it not important for the Electoral Commission, which will carry out these functions, to be both an independent body and a great repository of expertise in these areas? If that were the case, it would take into account local circumstances, and it would not act in a draconian manner.
Mr Jackson
The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point. I do not wish to cast aspersions on the Electoral Commission commissioners, but we are in danger of overlooking two key facts. One is that EROs are ultimately responsible to those who are locally elected to direct their work and to have oversight of their effectiveness in their role—the leader of the council, perhaps, or the cabinet or the appropriate committees. That explains the importance of clause 17. Secondly, as ever in politics and governance, if we do not attach a price tag, it is likely that we will not get the desired end.
The measures in these amendments would be resource-intensive and would impact directly on the other local authority budgets. Ultimately, it is for the local authorities, and EROs guided by elected members, to make the value judgments that they see fit in regard to registration. They will clearly want to perform as well as neighbouring boroughs, districts and cities, and their performance will be compared on a nationwide basis by the Electoral Commission. My objection to this aspect of these amendments is that it would be unnecessarily draconian for the legislation to direct in a catch-all way. The current system is right in this respect.
Mr Love
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that where the Electoral Commission feels an ERO has done the job effectively but is resource-constrained, it would be appropriate for the Electoral Commission and the ERO to refer that to the political leadership of their borough for proper discussion?
Mr Jackson
I agree, but there are existing checks and balances if the system does not work. I referred earlier to the situation in Sheffield, and in particular Sheffield, Hallam, the Deputy Prime Minister’s constituency. That was not just swept under the carpet. That was a very serious issue of people feeling they had not had the opportunity to take part in a vote and, as the hon. Gentleman will know, it resulted in a full, open, transparent inquiry by the Electoral Commission, and lessons have been learned. There is room for discretion within a permissive approach, but the amendments do not propose that.
I am always slightly wary of dismissing legislation that says, as schedule 4 does,
“so far as is reasonably practicable”.
That is the language of consensus, reality and pragmatism—the language of a practical approach. To disregard that and be overly-prescriptive would be a mistake. For that reason, if this amendment is pressed to a Division, I shall vote with the Government. I hope the Minister makes it clear that this amendment is unnecessary and the Bill’s current wording is appropriate.
Mr Heath
It is a pleasure to return to this Bill under your chairmanship, Mr Hoyle.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) for their amendments and the manner in which they discussed them. However, the hon. Gentleman’s revealing that he intends to vote for his amendment irrespective of my response does not give me a great incentive to try to persuade him—but my hon. Friend has a more open mind, and I know will listen carefully to what I have to say.
Wayne David
I have to say that I have made an assumption on the basis of what has happened so far with this Bill. I very much hope the hon. Gentleman proves me wrong, but I do not think he will.
Mr Heath
And on the basis of the way we have conducted our business in this Committee so far, I have also made an assumption about the hon. Gentleman. Let us leave it at that.
On amendments 39 and 35, it will come as no surprise to my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion to learn that I shall repeat what the Minister with responsibility for constitutional reform, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), said in an earlier debate on this measure: far from diluting the requirements on registration officers, under the new registration system we are strengthening the existing duties.
This Bill amends the Representation of the People Act 1983, and I accept that it can be a little difficult to follow how one qualifies, and relates to, the other. I shall try to explain that, therefore. The Bill sets out new requirements on registration officers, amending the previous legislation. My audience’s eyes will glaze over if I mention too many related sections, but one of the duties under section 9A of the 1983 Act is that the register must contain those who appear to the registration officer to be entitled to be registered. That presents a problem under the new system, because we do not want registration officers to confine their efforts simply to those who appear to be entitled to be registered; we want them to go out and seek out people, because we want the register to be complete. The duties are now expanded, therefore, so the registration officer has to go out and find people who are not on the register, and of whom he is not aware, and then include them on it. Therefore, a different process is engaged. At present, the provision in question also ignores the fact that there must be an application for registration before a person is added to the register. It is a key point that, at the application stage, the electors will be verified.
Those two important parts of the new system must be included in the new legislation, which is why the Bill amends section 9 to ensure that the description of the register in respect of individual registration is accurate. The register is to contain only those people who are “entitled” and have been through the application system. It also amends section 9A to make it clear that registration officers must do more than just take the specific steps laid out in the legislation in a tick-box manner and include in the register those people who made an application. Those requirements will remain, and must be fulfilled, without exception, but the Bill adds an express general duty to take all other
“necessary steps…so far as is reasonably practicable”
to compile as complete and accurate a register as possible.
The qualification of “reasonably practicable” applies to the standard of completeness and accuracy of the register that must be reached. It must be as complete and accurate as is “reasonably practicable”, which is a very high level, but there is an acceptance of the fact that no register will be absolutely perfect. It would not be right to set out in legislation a requirement for registration officers to achieve an unreasonable or impracticable level of completeness. However, the steps the ERO must take are not qualified. EROs must take all the necessary steps to achieve a register. That is not qualified as being steps that are “reasonably practicable”; they must take all the necessary steps to provide a register that is as complete and as accurate “as is reasonably practicable”.
Mr Heath
No, it would not. The steps that an ERO needs to take will be set out both in the guidance from the Electoral Commission and in the secondary legislation. Those steps will be a duty upon them; it will not be about doing this if they get round to it or if they feel it would be a good idea. There will be a basic level of steps that they must take. All we are doing with this “reasonably practicable” qualification is saying that, despite their best endeavours, EROs are not going to achieve a perfect register, because no one in any constituency in any country in the known world has ever produced a register that is absolutely accurate and perfect. However, EROs must do everything they can to make it is as near to that as possible by taking all reasonable steps.
Mr Stewart Jackson
The Minister is making a strong case. Is not the corollary of these amendments that, if we disregard the practicability of the efforts by the EROs to put this register together, compiling a register would be exactly the same, and would be seen as such, in Colchester, a constituency made up of one town in a compact urban area, as it would be in Orkney and Shetland, a constituency of many islands? It simply is not practical to regard the constituencies as being the same for the purposes of compiling a register.
Mr Heath
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He sets out why we must avoid being too prescriptive: we want EROs to do a variety of different things in different places to achieve their objective.
The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) asked whether there is a minimum that is required. I can tell him that there is. Our draft regulations will set out what the EROs must do to encourage applications to register to vote. That will include, as a minimum, the sending of an invitation, of two reminders and of a canvasser to encourage an application. There is no question of our watering down the duty of EROs; we are simply recognising that even at the end of all that, because of the change in the way in which this section is constructed by the amendment of the original Act, EROs will not have a perfect register. However, they must have as near to a perfect system as possible for getting to the perfect register.
Wayne David
With all due respect, what the Minister is saying is about as clear as mud. As I understand it, the Government are trying to say that this is merely a technical amendment. We are saying that the whole issue of a door-to-door canvass is extremely important, and if it ain’t broke, why fix it? We should keep it as it is.
Mr Heath
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman cannot understand the point I am making, because I thought I had set it out clearly. I am not sure that I can find an alternative construction that might make it easier for the hard of understanding. What he asserts to be a dilution is not a dilution because it applies to a different process. The use of
“so far as is reasonably practicable”
is a qualification of the completeness of the register, not of the system the EROs use to get there, where they must take all the steps required, and others, in order to achieve an accurate and complete register. I think that that is sufficiently clear and that members of the Committee will feel it is sufficiently clear. However, as he stated that he was not going to be satisfied by my explanation even before I gave it, I am not entirely surprised that he finds that difficulty now.
Mr Love
The Minister says that the things that the ERO will need to do will be set out in the regulations. Will those matters also be subject to the test to which the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) referred—the financial wherewithal necessary to carry this out—or can that be judged under the criteria the Minister has just suggested?
Mr Heath
I am in danger of straying into a different part of the legislation here, because that requirement is already in place. One of the things that concern many of us is the difference in performance of some authorities in carrying out what is clearly their duty. The returning officer and the ERO have a statutory duty to carry out their duties effectively. If they are not given the resources by the local authority concerned, they must insist that they have those resources. There is also a back-up provision for the Electoral Commission to take a view on that and report the matter to the Government where there is a deficiency—so the apparatus is in place. Given the new responsibilities that EROs have and the transition funding that they will receive as part of the process of implementing this Bill, I hope that they will be a little more forthright in saying when they are being starved of funds. I must say that there is no direct correlation between the EROs who have more than adequate resources to do their job properly and those who do not, and the relative financial solvency or otherwise of the local authority; it is often a matter of political will as to whether this is seen as a priority.
Mr Heath
I think that the hon. Gentleman agrees with that point.
May I just deal with the other two issues raised in the amendments? Amendment 37 deals with the reporting of suspicions that an individual had committed offences relating to electoral fraud when submitting either a registration or absent vote application. Again, nobody would quarrel with the purpose of that. Perhaps I should say the “purported purpose”, as we never know exactly what the purpose of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Caerphilly is because he does not provide an explanatory statement, unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion. I accept that the purported purpose is a good one.
Let us be absolutely clear that there is a need for EROs to refer to the police any suspicions they have on registration and postal vote applications that they receive, and that is set out clearly in the guidance issued to them by the Electoral Commission. The hon. Member for Caerphilly will have looked at that, and he will know that paragraph 3.37 of the Electoral Commission’s “Managing electoral registration in Great Britain” guidance clearly states:
“Any issues concerning the integrity of the registration process should be reported”—
by the ERO—
“to the police immediately.”
In addition, the Electoral Commission has worked with the Association of Chief Police Officers to produce guidance for EROs, returning officers and police officers on identifying and responding to allegations of electoral fraud associated with the registration and postal voting process. In exercising powers under section 9A of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral Commission has also set out a specific performance standard on integrity—performance standard 4— which EROs need to meet on maintaining the integrity of registration and postal vote applications. In order to meet that performance standard, EROs are required to establish and maintain contact with their local police—a single point of contact—and ensure that any suspicions arising from registration and postal vote applications are reported to them immediately. EROs are already assessed on their compliance with that standard by the Electoral Commission, so putting in place this statutory requirement would be otiose in those circumstances. If the question is whether they are doing that, the Electoral Commission’s report is encouraging. EROs appear to be making significant progress in the completion of the integrity performance standard.
The figures in the report on the performance of electoral registration officers in 2011 show that 260 EROs, or 68%, met the standard, whereas 116, or 31%, performed above it. Those who are mathematically gifted will work out that 68 plus 31 is 99, which leaves only 1% of EROs—only four—who did not meet the standard. Why not? They did not provide sufficient documentation to the Electoral Commission about the work they had done—they had done it—to take matters forward with the police. The Electoral Commission has give a strong bill of health to the steps taken by EROs of their own volition and with the support of local authorities, as the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) said, to do the job with which they are entrusted and to report their suspicions.
Mr Stewart Jackson
I concur warmly with the Minister. My experience of living through Operation Hooper, which was the postal vote fraud investigation in Cambridgeshire arising from the June 2004 local and European elections, puts that sharply into perspective. It is important that there should be no perverse incentive that means that electoral registration officers do not take action because of the resource implications. Hooper cost the Cambridgeshire constabulary a huge amount of money, which has never been recouped by the constabulary or by the city of Peterborough, and the Minister should be mindful of that.
Mr Heath
I absolutely agree. There should be no constraint on dealing effectively with attempted or actual fraud in the electoral process. EROs should be confident not only that they have the capacity to act but that the police will engage with them. That is why the work between the Electoral Commission and ACPO is so important.
Wayne David
I hear what the Minister says about the reports produced by the Electoral Commission, but that is all in the past. We are talking about a transitional system and an entirely new system. Our contention is that EROs should have greater responsibilities to ensure that they take that aspect of their work very seriously and that there is a need for a stipulation to that effect on the face of the Bill.
Mr Heath
I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but the Electoral Commission’s most recent report from 2011, which is really not that long ago, expresses the strong view that EROs understand their responsibilities in this area perfectly well. It is by no means clear that a statutory provision would make one jot of difference. From a jurisprudential point of view, I do not think it is very easy to establish that someone has failed to report a suspicion. If they have documented it, they are likely to report it, and if they have not I would like to see the process by which one could establish that a suspicion had formed in their mind.
There are difficulties with the proposal from the hon. Member for Caerphilly, but I do not think we are talking about a major difference of opinion. We simply think that the Electoral Commission has taken and will continue to take the necessary steps, that EROs are responding positively to that and that we have a much more satisfactory arrangement now than we would have had a few years ago. That is partly thanks to the work of the previous Government in introducing the provisions that gave the Electoral Commission the standard-setting duties it now has.
Finally, let me deal with the proposal to give the Electoral Commission powers of intervention. The amendment is not clear. I do not want to criticise the hon. Gentleman, but it is a curious provision in an Act of Parliament to give a power of intervention without stating what that power is. The proposal raises a serious point about the role of the Electoral Commission. We think that the fulfilment of the requirements set out in section 9A of the 1983 Act plays a vital role in improving the completeness and accuracy of our electoral registers. We are committed to achieving that, but giving the Electoral Commission powers to intervene when that is not being done would be a significant change to how it operates. It already has powers to set and monitor performance standards for electoral services, which is what we have just been discussing, and it does it very well, measuring the performance of EROs against those criteria. A failure to meet those standards might suggest a potential failure to meet the duty set out in section 9A of the 1983 Act, which is absolutely right.
Mr Love
Under the 2010 Act, the Electoral Commission was given a central role because of the critical importance of the introduction of individual electoral registration. Amendments have already been made to downgrade the role of the Electoral Commission. Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that we need an independent body with expert witnesses in its membership to ensure a smooth transition to individual electoral registration?
Mr Heath
I absolutely agree. The Electoral Commission plays a hugely significant role and will continue to do so, setting out and monitoring the performance standards. It is also helping through its new responsibilities to ensure that EROs do their job. When there are concerns about the EROs’ performance as regards this duty or any other, the Electoral Commission has a power to intervene by making a recommendation to the Secretary of State or the Lord President of the Council, who has a power of direction to require registration officers to comply with the directions on discharging their functions. It goes further, because in addition it is an offence for a registration officer to breach their official duty without good cause. If prosecuted and found guilty, a registration officer can be fined up to £5,000. I believe that that system has so far worked well as regards any registration officer who was found to be in dereliction of his duties. I cannot see any need to change that or for any specific provision to be made about the discharging of those duties under section 9A.
We want the Electoral Commission to play a key role in monitoring how registration officers implement their policies, including their fulfilment of section 9A duties. The Secretary of State or the Lord President of the Council would as a last resort retain the ability to issue formal directions to a registration officer if they were in breach of their legal responsibilities. I hope that those detailed explanations of the Government’s position mean that the hon. Member for Caerphilly and others will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
Wayne David
I heard what the Minister said. I was not entirely convinced by his arguments, but there was some reassurance on some points, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I understand, Mr Williams, that you do not wish to move amendment 35.
Wayne David
As I indicated earlier, we feel that this is a very good amendment on an extremely important issue, so we would like to move it.
Amendment proposed: 35, page 21, line 23, leave out ‘, so far as is reasonably practicable,’.—(Wayne David.)
Wayne David
In principle, the provisions in clause 14 on the timing of parish and community council elections are sensible, but, as the Minister knows, local government is devolved to Wales. What consultation on this point was carried out with the Welsh Government prior to the publication of the Bill?
Mr Heath
I would not want to mislead the hon. Gentleman by suggesting that I have personally made such contact, because I have not. That would have been a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is the Minister with responsibility for constitutional reform. However, throughout our work on the Bill, we have ensured that we have shared our intentions with all the devolved Administrations that will be subject to it. I will confirm to the hon. Gentleman what consultation was carried out with the Welsh authorities, but I am confident that that will have taken place, because it has happened with other aspects of the Bill. When possible, we have accommodated any points that the devolved Administrations have made.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The clause deals with the timing of local elections, but local authority elections are a matter for the National Assembly. Clearly, community council elections should also be a matter for the National Assembly, rather than being reserved to Westminster. Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), will the Minister hold discussions with the Welsh Government on taking that idea forward? There is a Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for Wales, and perhaps the subsequent White Paper and legislation would be a vehicle to move that forward.
Mr Heath
I undertake to draw the hon. Gentleman’s remarks to the attention of the Wales Office and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office. If progress can be made in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests, that can certainly be considered.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 14 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 15
Alteration of electoral registers: pending elections
Wayne David
I beg to move amendment 38, page 9, line 12, at end insert—
‘(1A) In section 13(4), at end add “provided that the registration officer shall not make any such changes if an election specified in section 13B(4) is scheduled to take place within 30 days of publication of the revised version of the register.”.’.
The amendment is small, but important. Clause 15 will amend the Representation of the People Act 1983 to provide for two interim publication dates when an election is pending on which notices of alteration of the electoral register must be published. The intention behind amendment 38 is to counter electoral fraud.
Unfortunately, if someone was so inclined, they would find it relatively straightforward to add a small number of electors to the register fraudulently over several months. The odds of such fraud being detected reduce in proportion to any reduction in the time available between the publication of the electoral register and an election. I am told that this was part of the problem in the 2007 Slough postal votes fraud. The chances of detection are also reduced if the electors added mid-year are new to the register, because the situation will not be apparent from the register itself.
The police commissioner elections will take place in November, just a matter of days after the publication of a wholly new register. We are keen to ensure that that does not become a pattern, because it is not especially good practice. I say that not just on behalf of the Labour party, but for the benefit of all political parties, because we all have the role of engaging with the democratic process and making a case to secure votes in elections. Such a situation does not give time for parties’ local activists to detect suspicious new registrations through the numbering system employed by electoral registration officers.
While this might be a small issue in the scheme of things, we are making an important practical point from the perspective of not only the organisation of political parties, but the detection of fraud. We are especially concerned to avoid a repeat of what happened in Slough in 2007.
Mr Heath
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this sensible point. We all agree that, when possible, registers should be in place for a significant time prior to the elections to which they relate. I do not want to revisit the police commissioner elections, because I think that he will accept that they are an exceptional case.
The hon. Gentleman has set out an option for what could be done, but his proposal would create practical difficulties. Indeed, the problems are of such a scale that they might involve additional expense. While that would not be the end of the world if the proposal meant that fraud would be detected more effectively, the amendment would also create the possibility of confusion.
I understand that the amendment would provide that electors remaining on the register following a canvass would retain their existing electoral number if an election took place within 30 days of the register’s publication. However, I am not clear about what would happen if electors were removed from the register following the annual canvass. If the intention is that the numbers for those electors would not be used on the new register, there would be gaps in the number sequence for electors, unless those gaps were filled with new electors, which would create a strange and rather jumbled numbering process. It might mean a different numbering system for new electors. Far from getting rid of the difficulties which the hon. Gentleman correctly identifies as a risk, it might introduce new risks into the process if the system made it difficult for the parties, the electoral registration officers and the IT systems to cope.
The further issue—this is not to belittle the hon. Gentleman’s amendment—is at what point the renumbering should begin. The amendment is silent on when would be the appropriate time to renumber consecutively. If we wait until the next revised register, the same circumstances might apply, and there might be a significantly longer period during which no renumbering has taken place and the numbers do not run consecutively, which would pose a different challenge.
When a revised register is published, parties must unavoidably update the data that they hold to reflect changes to the register, removing people from and adding others to the register. The numbering is part of that process. The amendment would add complexity and potentially cost, though that is not the critical factor if it were effective. I am not convinced that it would reduce fraud, but I would be happy to explore the implications of the hon. Gentleman’s proposal with electoral administrators. I am not convinced by it yet, for the reasons that I set out, but I understand the point that he is making. If, by withdrawing the amendment, he will allow me to do so, I will ensure that we consider whether it is practicable or whether an alternative proposal is practicable to deal with the issue that he raises.
Wayne David
I thank the Minister for that considered and balanced response. He acknowledges that there is an issue that should be addressed in one way or another. I am not suggesting that we have presented a watertight solution, but the amendment is an attempt to engage with the problem. I welcome the fact that he is prepared to consider, with officials, whether there is a technical way to reduce the problem that we have identified. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 16 and 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 18
Use of emblems on ballot papers
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Wayne David
No doubt the Minister is convinced that I am determined to make mischief on the clause. I am sorry to disappoint him. I will not embellish the concern that some Conservative Members expressed to me privately, and one or two of them in the Chamber, that this might open the way for a new symbol to be adopted if there were joint Conservative and Liberal Democrat candidates in an election. I will not go that way.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
What would happen to a Labour /Co-op candidate?
Wayne David
The hon. Gentleman pre-empts my next point. That is precisely what I want to refer to.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
On the subject of a joint Liberal Democrat and Conservative emblem, could a blue duck—is it a duck or a dove that the Liberal Democrats have?—or a yellow oak tree be an amalgam of the emblems of the two parties?
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
May I make an alternative suggestion? Perhaps it could be a dead duck sitting in an oak tree.
Wayne David
Perhaps there should be a competition to determine the most appropriate symbol.
On the issue of joint Co-op and Labour party candidates, I understand that the Government explained on Second Reading and before that the clause is intended to address a gap in the legislation. Can the Minister provide reassurance not only that it will address an anomaly in the case of parliamentary elections, but that there is no difficulty in the case of local elections, and that is covered by other legislation?
Mr Heath
I did indeed think that the hon. Gentleman intended to make further mischief, and he may have done so, marginally. May I reassure him that there is not the slightest intention of my party standing joint candidates with the Conservative party? We come together as a coalition of principle in this Government but at the next general election—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman does not keep up with the news if he believes that there are not divergent opinions developing on policies after the next election. We will see what happens.
The clause deals with a simple anomaly that affects the hon. Gentleman’s own party at every election where there are Labour/Co-op candidates and they cannot use a symbol that relates to their joint candidacy. It is not only the Labour party that is affected. Some of us, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), may remember Cynog Dafis, formerly a Member of the House. He was elected on a Plaid Cymru/Green ticket. The problem did not arise then, because at that time we did not have party emblems on the ballot paper, but were he or another candidate to stand on the same basis today, he would not be able to have a joint emblem to denote his candidature. It is a small discrepancy, and the clause amends rule 19 of the parliamentary election rules in schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983 to enable a candidate who is standing on behalf of two or more registered political parties to use a single emblem on the ballot paper.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I do not claim to be expert in this and I can see that the clause allows a candidate to use one emblem of one party. Does it disallow the use of an authorised combined emblem of two parties?
Mr Heath
I believe I am right in saying that the clause would allow that if the emblem were registered as the emblem of those two parties in combination. I imagine the Labour and Co-operative party will wish to register an emblem to indicate that their candidates will be taking on that joint sponsorship.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. If his interpretation is not right, perhaps we can be written to and the matter considered before the Bill makes progress in another place. It would be useful if the Government said whether they intend a candidate standing with the agreement of more than one party to be able to use a symbol combining elements of the symbols of both parties. If the intention is to disallow that, it would be interesting to hear that. If the intention is to allow it, it would be nice to know that explicitly.
Sir Peter Bottomley
It may be that that would have to allow for the possibility that a party would register two emblems, one by themselves and one with another party. It does seem to be a slightly more complicated issue than we understand at the moment.
Mr Heath
It does seem to be a much more complicated issue than I expected when I stood at the Dispatch Box. My understanding is that under the present arrangements parties can register more than one emblem, for example to demonstrate regional or national differences within a single party, so I do not think that that is a problem. That is my understanding, unless I have completely misunderstood the intention behind this. I will write to the hon. Gentleman to clarify that point.
The hon. Member for Caerphilly referred to other elections. This applies only to parliamentary elections because we have already made the necessary changes in secondary legislation to address the issue for most other elections that are affected by the change. We cannot do that for UK parliamentary elections without primary legislation, and that is why it is in the Bill today. It will complete the process, so that we no longer have that discrepancy. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Gentleman.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 18 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 19 to 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Personation
‘In section 60 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 (Personation) after subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) The Secretary of State shall introduce regulations by statutory instrument to facilitate actions by electoral registration officers, their agents and others, including candidates and their agents in elections, to—
(a) prevent, and
(b) detect personation.”.’. —(John Hemming.)
This Clause would enable action to be taken to prevent or deter personation.
Brought up, and read the First time.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2—Other voting offences—
‘In section 61 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 (Other voting offences) after subsection (6) insert—
“(6AA) The Secretary of State shall introduce regulations by statutory instruments to facilitate actions by electoral registration officers, their agents and others, including candidates and their agents in elections, to—
(a) prevent, and
(b) detect the offences listed in subsections (1) to (6).”.’.
This Clause would enable action to be taken to prevent or deter other voting offences.
John Hemming
First, I emphasise that all political parties have had members who are responsible for electoral fraud. In Birmingham it has tended to be the Labour party, but that is not to say that any one party is perfect or any one party is necessarily much worse than any other.
I have unusual experience as a Member of the House in that I have drafted election petitions. The best known is the one for Aston; less known is that for Sparkhill, which dealt with issues of personation. When it was passed to some lawyers, they missed the deadline for serving it, and it was never considered in court. So whereas in 2002 it might have been possible to have proven the scale of personation, it was not until the elections of 2004, when there were election petitions in Aston ward and Bordesley Green ward, that he looked substantially at postal vote fraud. To start with, most of the evidence came from the fact that the Labour candidates were found some time in the early morning on an industrial estate in Aston checking that there were three Labour votes on each of the 273 ballot papers because they did not trust each other to mark them with three Labour votes, it being a three-up election, thinking that the person with the most votes gets elected for four years. A number of the ballot papers in the then Springfield ward were cast with only one Labour vote if they were postal votes, so it was reasonable to assume that the Labour candidates could not necessarily trust each other and therefore their reasoning for sitting late in the morning to look at the ballot papers was justified.
In trying to deal with election fraud, the Bill tries to ensure that the people who are on the electoral roll should be there, and that is a good thing to do. What it does not do and where there is a big gap—although I intend this as a probing new clause—is to try to ensure that people cast their own vote. Historically, there has been a tendency at times for there to be a sort of informal proxy. This has gone on for decades; it is nothing massively new. People think that someone is away and somebody else goes to vote for them. That has also turned into other situations where parties cast votes intentionally for people that they do not expect to vote. We have one way of spotting that through tendered votes. For those people who do not know, if someone turns up at the polling station and is told that they have already voted—it could be that the wrong name was marked on the register—they can get a tendered vote, a pink ballot paper, which is put in an envelope, so that if there is an election petition it is possible to consider the tendered votes and see whether they would have made any difference to a narrow election result. The difficulty, as we have seen in Birmingham, is that vans of people can go from polling station to polling station casting a vote in each one. “Newsnight” found out some of the details of that.
Anyone who is interested in these issues must read the full judgment of Richard Mawrey, an electoral commissioner. He has done a number of election courts since, but he was the electoral commissioner who dealt with the Aston and Bordesley Green election petitions. We have to consider how to ensure that elections are honest. We cannot entirely rely on the apparatus of the state to do that. In his judgment at paragraph 150 he says:
“The reaction of the police”—
to the allegations of election fraud—
“can best be summed up by drawing attention to the code name they gave to the complaints of malpractice—Operation Gripe. This indicates better than anything else their view that the whole business was a complete waste of their time and that Mr Hemming and the other complainants were a tiresome nuisance.”
I may be a nuisance at times, but at paragraph 264 he said:
“As set out above, in the course of the campaign the Liberal Democrats asserted on several occasions that the Labour Party candidates and their supporters were cheating. Mr Hemming and his team made their complaints to the police and the police largely ignored them.”
Paragraph 265 says:
“Mr Hemming also complained to Mr Owen, to be told, politely but firmly (and certainly correctly), that the Elections Office could not intervene.”
There are issues there. The elections office has to handle the paperwork of the elections in a way that is seen to be fair. My particular concern at that election was that the 273 arrested ballot papers found their way to be counted, and, most importantly, I as leader of the Liberal Democrats and Mike Whitby as leader of the Conservatives at the time, were not told that 273 ballot papers had been arrested on an industrial estate and found their way into the count. So the idea that one casts a vote and it goes off to an industrial estate, the police arrest it after a little discussion and then take it in is quite strange.
Paragraph 707 says:
“But, when all that is said and done, Mr Hemming was right and his critics were wrong. He said that there was a massive, Birmingham-wide electoral fraud by the Labour Party and there was in fact massive Birmingham-wide electoral fraud by the Labour party. He may have played the part of Cassandra, but like Cassandra his prophecies were true. He emerges from the case with credit which is more than can be said for those police officers who treated his complaints as no more than Operation Gripe.”
But the most important part of the judgment from Richard Mawrey was paragraph 717, which says:
“The systems to deal with fraud are not working well. They are not working badly. The fact is that there are no systems to deal realistically with fraud and there never have been. Until there are, fraud will continue unabated.”
With personation, in theory it is possible to appoint polling agents who can stand in the polling station and potentially put the statutory question to people: “Are you such and such a person of such and such address?” If a woman comes in and says, “Yes, I’m Gordon Brown of such and such address,” the fact that that woman—unless she has changed her name by deed pool—is unlikely to be telling the truth is no good reason for the presiding officer not to give her a ballot paper.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting case. Following the incident that he describes, have the police apologised for the way in which they behaved, and have they given any reassurance to him that in future they will treat complaints of electoral fraud seriously?
John Hemming
There was no apology. They did start going down a different route, but they then started prosecuting people for offences that were not offences. There was one case where they prosecuted someone for what they thought was postal vote fraud, but they made the mistake of not checking whether the votes were cast to work out whether there was a chance that there was postal vote fraud. Most people indulge in electoral fraud to get more votes and be elected, but if someone assists someone else in filling in the forms for a postal vote and the vote is not actually cast, one can assume that there is no offence. A person was prosecuted for that. There has been no apology for it.
I am more concerned about the fact that we are doing nothing to control personation. I want to draw a distinction between actions that enable the system as a whole to act to prevent personation and actions that enable political parties to do so. Issuing an election petition is very difficult. Again, it is worth reading the judgment. The prosecution in Birmingham took place in the Birmingham and Midland Institute, in a room that could accommodate possibly 300 people, and there were often 200 people there watching the election court’s proceedings. It was the best entertainment in town at the time, and many people who saw it would accept that as a fair description of the situation. Whatever processes are put in, there must be a facility that allows them to be transparent and enables the political parties to be involved in challenging them through an open and transparent judicial process in an election court.
At the same time, it is useful to have processes that allow the police to get involved. In Birmingham it was clear that 4,000 people’s votes were stolen in the Bordesley Green ward. There were three local election votes and one European parliamentary vote, so basically 16,000 votes were stolen. That involved threats to the postman, who was told, “We’ll give you £500 if you give us your box of postal votes or we’ll kill you.” It is an offer you cannot really refuse. One letter box was actually set on fire in an attempt to stop postal votes reaching the electoral office. There was a semi-riot involving 200 people, because obviously when this sort of thing goes on the tension goes beyond what we would normally have in rows about unparliamentary language and people start fighting in the street instead. Those are the sorts of issues that arise.
Sir Peter Bottomley
The hon. Gentleman’s new clause rightly suggests first deterring people and then being able to catch them and take action. False registration is clearly an issue, and obtaining postal votes when they are in transit is another. Has he considered whether powers are needed to be able to film each person delivering a vote in person, because there is either the postal vote personation or the voting-in-person personation?
John Hemming
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I would rather he had not made it, because I had intended to say that and now he has mentioned it first. I think that technology has facilitated recording in polling stations. Making that recording available would be the best sort of change, because it would not record which way people vote.
I had started to talk about the Greek situation, where transparent ballot boxes are used, which, in terms of transparency, are better than black boxes. In Cheetham Hill ward in Manchester in 2003 a ballot box went astray for about an hour and a half after the end of polling. Obviously that is a good opportunity for ballot box-stuffing, as people can put a few extra votes in the ballot box as they drive around Manchester. There are a number of advantages with the filming process. If someone is personating, we would see who it is, which in a sense is the better challenge.
Mr Kevan Jones
I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s example, but surely if someone stuffs extra ballots into a ballot box the number of ballots in it would not tally with the number issued at the polling station.
John Hemming
What happens is that basically they mark off extra votes on the marked register, so it is not difficult.
Mr Jones
I am sorry, but that is not what they do; they mark off the marked register, but there is also the counter stub with the number on, which is then tallied with the number of votes issued. I think that what the hon. Gentleman suggests would be very difficult for someone to do unless they also had control of the book of ballot forms.
John Hemming
We have experience in Birmingham of identified presiding officers campaigning for the Labour party in the polling station. In Hodge Hill ward, for instance, the presiding officer was handing out poll cards to the Labour agent, which is a criminal offence, and I reported it to the chief executive at the time. In one polling station the poll cards were given to the Labour party. It cannot be assumed that just because people are presiding officers—I accept that there are two people there—they suddenly become perfect people who behave exactly as we would wish them to. If we had enough activists and we could put polling agents in each polling station for all the hours of the poll and monitor what was going on, that would not be such a problem.
Mr Jones
I find it remarkable that the hon. Gentleman opened his speech by saying that electoral fraud, of which I think there are a tiny number of cases, affects all parties, because he seems to be very partisan in using examples only from the Labour party. Is he really suggesting that polling agents and people who work in polling stations are involved in fraud, because in my opinion that is not the case? There is a danger in what he is suggesting, because if we put in agents from some parties they could intimidate the polling clerks.
John Hemming
Under election law, putting in polling agents is already allowed; that is not a change to the law.
John Hemming
I have two little points to make on that. First, I said that all parties have people who are responsible for election fraud but in Birmingham we have tended to find problems with the Labour party, so I am tending to talk about the Labour party. Secondly, with regard to polling agents, that is the current law. If the hon. Gentleman does not know the current law, that is life. The current law allows people to appoint both counting agents and polling agents. Most people do not appoint polling agents but in Birmingham, because of the large amount of personation that tends to go on, we appoint polling agents in some wards when we can manage it. I have sent to the presiding officer, with evidence, examples of presiding agents who attempted to persuade people to vote for the Labour party in the Soho ward in Birmingham. There would have been other election petitions in 2004 on the basis of those particular issues had it not been for the fact that running one election petition is a major challenge and running two would be a bigger challenge, so much so that we had legal assistance on the second one.
Wayne David
The hon. Gentleman has made some accusations, admittedly only in passing, but they are quite serious and he has stated them as though they are fact. If he has serious allegations, he really ought to produce the evidence to the police, rather than relying on parliamentary privilege in this House.
John Hemming
I did provide that information to the police in 2004, and they had an operation called Operation Gripe, in which they basically did nothing. We have now moved on. We are eight years down the track. I do not think that it would be reasonable to prosecute people for things they did eight years ago. Let me quote again from the judgment:
“The reaction of the police can be best summed up by drawing attention to the code name they gave to complaints of malpractice—Operation Gripe. This indicated better than anything else their view that the whole business was a complete waste of time and that Mr Hemming and the other complainants were a tiresome nuisance.”
I gave all the evidence to the police, who piled it in a box, called it Operation Gripe and did nothing. At the same time, we have to be realistic. We have moved on eight years and I am not going to spend all my time trying to get a particular woman prosecuted for handing poll cards to the Labour party. What I said to the returning officer, the chief executive of the council, was that I wanted her to stop doing it, not get her imprisoned. There are questions about the objectives. My objective in the campaigning I have done on election fraud over a number of years is to stop it. To do that, we must have systems to monitor and detect things. That is where these particular probing amendments come in. They would give the Government a facility to make changes. I happen to think that the proposal for video recording in the polling station would be one of the best solutions.
Chris Ruane
What estimate has the hon. Gentleman made of the cost of kitting out every polling station in the UK with such video evidence?
John Hemming
What value does the hon. Gentleman place on integrity in electoral processes? That is the real question. One of these new video camera thingies, such as a mobile phone, would cost about £100 per polling station, and if we do not necessarily introduce them throughout the country, the question is, what value do we place on integrity in election processes? To me, the integrity of an election is absolutely critical.
Chris Ruane
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about integrity, but within that, and in hard times, we have to weigh two things in the balance: integrity and cost. So what assessment has he made of the incidence of such electoral fraud—personation or whatever? Would it be worth paying out £100 for every polling station in the UK, or would some of that money be better spent on installing disabled access, which is a far bigger problem?
John Hemming
Somewhere in the judgment, Members will find that I made about 50 complaints to the police in 2004 in Birmingham. As I have said, things have moved on, and some progress has been made on dealing with election fraud.
One issue was the large amount of postal vote fraud, and we proved that a small number of people had forged all the witness statements, but since then witness statements have been abolished so we can no longer prove whether any are forged. So changes have been made, but not all have necessarily been good changes.
Chris Ruane
The hon. Gentleman says that things have moved on in eight years. Does he have the statistics for the number of cases of electoral fraud and personation last year and this year? Is it a current problem, or would we be spending £100 on every polling station to resolve problems that existed eight years ago but do not exist today?
John Hemming
Paragraph 717 of Richard Mawrey’s judgment states:
“The systems to deal with fraud are not working well. They are not working badly. The fact is that there are no systems to deal realistically with fraud and there never have been.”
In paragraph 714, which I did not read out earlier, Mawrey states:
“In this judgment I have set out at length what has clearly been shown to be the weakness of the current law relating to postal votes. As some parts of this judgment may be seen as critical of the Government, I wish to make it clear that the responsibility for the present unsatisfactory situation must be shared. All political parties welcomed and supported postal voting on demand. Until very recently, none has treated electoral fraud as representing a problem. Apart from the Electoral Commission, whose role I have described above, the only voices raised against the laxity of the system have been in the media, in particular The Times newspaper, and the tendency of politicians of all Parties has been to dismiss these warnings as scaremongering.”
So there we go: personation is still going on.
In South Yardley ward this year, for instance, we put in a little bit of effort after the election and uncovered personation, but one difficulty is that when people are asked, “Did you vote?” they all tend to say yes—whether they did or not. There is a record of people who voted in 2012 but not in 2011, and when they are asked, “Do you remember whether you voted in 2011 or 2012?” they tend to say, “We voted both times,” when in fact we know that they did not vote in 2011.
We did, however, find a small number of personated votes in South Yardley ward—not enough to affect the result, but the point is that we found some. There are difficulties in dealing with things retrospectively, however, and that brings us to the point about new clause 1, which is about facilitating change. Emotionally, I like what some democracies have, which is orange or purple dye on the finger.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Has the hon. Gentleman thought that his suggestion of installing a camera in every polling station might create a whole new raft of electoral fraud—namely, one party making a spurious complaint against a known supporter of another party in order to deter that party’s voters from voting later on or in another election?
John Hemming
First, I do not think that that is true; and, secondly, the new clause is not necessarily the best way to deal with the issue, because it is an important one that needs consideration in primary legislation. Experiments—pilot schemes—might be undertaken to see how the proposal worked in certain areas, but it is an important issue that in primary legislation would attract far more Members than are currently in the Chamber to look at it. So we cannot say now what the exact solution would be, but at the moment Richard Mawrey is still right: there is no system for controlling personation.
A voter does not need their polling card, so they can turn up and say, “My name is X, of this address, please give me a ballot paper,” and the officials are under a duty to do so. Interestingly, during the 2010 general election I had in Birmingham observers from Kenya and Bangladesh, and, after I took them round and showed them how it all worked, they were quite surprised at how easy it was to defraud the system.
To return to the point I was about to make before the previous intervention—that is no criticism of the intervention—I am emotionally attracted to the practice in some countries of putting purple dye on a finger.
Chris Ruane
If we were to adopt the hon. Gentleman’s policy of putting an extra 60,000 CCTV cameras in polling stations throughout the country, how would that fit with his party’s view that there are too many such cameras already? An extra 60,000? Surely that would be Big Brother.
John Hemming
The question we have to ask is whether the use of something is proportionate, because in my constituency I supported the use of closed circuit television cameras, for instance, in the Yew Tree shopping centre, where they provide a useful function in an area with a history of crime. Sadly, there has been a history of crime in certain polling stations too, and, although I am not saying that we should put cameras all over the place, I think there is an argument for them as an option.
Chris Ruane
What criteria would the hon. Gentleman use for placing those—[Interruption.] The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) sniggers, but this is a serious issue. What criteria would the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) use for placing those extra 60,000 CCTV cameras across the nation? Would he do so if there had been previous electoral fraud or personation in an area, or if a certain socio-economic group or ethnic group had been involved? If he had a plan of the UK, where would he plonk those cameras?
John Hemming
Any decision would be better driven by the requests of the political parties. If they were willing to fund the measure so that it did not affect the deficit, they could place a camera to record what was going on and make sure that people were not being intimidated in the polling station.
There have been serious problems with people being bullied by their families in what is supposed to be a secret ballot. That is not supposed to happen, but it happens at the polling station as well.
Chris Ruane
Would political parties decide where the cameras went throughout the nation? If there were 60,000 of them, would there be 20,000 for Labour, 20,000 for the Tories and 20,000 for the Lib Dems, or would there be some kind of proportional representation for the allocation of CCTV cameras? Will the hon. Gentleman clarify that point?
John Hemming
One point about the new clause is that it does not try to be explicit about how we might deal with a specific problem; it would allow a discussion to take place. I am very pleased to have the hon. Gentleman’s interventions, however, as we look creatively at how we can deal with an issue to which, effectively, a blind eye has been turned for more than a century. When political parties had larger memberships it was easier to arrange polling agents all over the place; it has become harder as political party activity and social capital has gone down. So the hon. Gentleman might make that proposal, but what is important is that something should happen.
Chris Ruane
I was not making that proposal; I was asking the hon. Gentleman whether he agreed with it and was proposing it.
John Hemming
I am proposing, believe it or not, new clause 1, which would facilitate secondary legislation to deal with the matter. I accept the point that the issue is so important that it should be dealt with in primary legislation, but it would be nice to see the Electoral Commission showing some interest in pilot schemes to deal with these issues. Personation is well known in many areas of the country, and the noble Lord Greaves has highlighted cases in his area.
Wayne David
Listening to the hon. Gentleman, I have a novel suggestion: might it not be a good idea, first, to have ID cards?
John Hemming
We do not need an ID card to have some way of checking an identity. I would not go for the fingerprint solution; I think the video camera is—[Interruption.] The reason I like the idea of colour on the finger is that it would be a badge of honour. People who had done their civic duty and cast a vote could say to those who had not, “I’m one up on you—I’ve been out to vote.” I always say to people that others have fought for the ballot and that even if they spoil the ballot paper, they should cast their vote. I also explain to them that if something sufficiently rude is written on the ballot paper the agents and candidates often get to see it, so it is a way of getting a message across, whereas sitting at home and not casting a vote does not have an effect, and those who do not cast votes tend to be ignored. People should be aware of that.
Chris Ruane
In a recent parliamentary question, I asked how many successful prosecutions of electoral fraud there are every year, and the answer came back, one or two, but 36% of the British public think that the situation is worse than that. Part of the reason for that disparity could be that MPs and Ministers stand up in the Chamber and on the news and say that electoral fraud is a terrible problem, but really it is not and there are very few cases. Yet the whole gist of the Bill—
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
In fairness, Mr Hemming, you have taken a lot of interventions, and we have to deal with other new clauses after this. You have already been speaking for 30 minutes, and I think you are in danger of being drawn into something you do not want to be drawn into. It may be helpful if you are not drawn into it, and I am sure that you are now coming to the end of your speech.
John Hemming
Paragraph 717 of the Mawrey judgment, which I quoted earlier, deals with the hon. Gentleman’s point. These are probing amendments. However, we do need systems to detect and prevent personation, and according to Mr Justice Mawrey, we do not have them.
Mr Kevan Jones
This has been a fascinating debate. In my view, one of the weaknesses of the new clause is that it calls for action but does not outline what should happen.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) that the number of cases of fraud in this country is small. Overall, we have a very good electoral system. In the Electoral Commission’s report after its voting pilots of the early 2000s, it found that the incidence of fraud was quite small, but, as we know, concentrated in certain communities, whether Asian communities in big cities such as Birmingham, which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) represents, or those in other areas such as Bradford and Tower Hamlets, where the Liberal Democrats do not have a fantastic record. We must therefore be careful not to get this out of proportion.
I am worried about some of the hon. Gentleman’s suggested measures to detect fraud, which would be completely out of proportion to the problem that is being addressed. Having seen his performances in this House over the past few years, I am not surprised that the police chose the name Operation Gripe. Making scattergun accusations such as those he made today is not very helpful, either to the police or to the real debate about electoral fraud.
The hon. Gentleman proposes to extend these measures to candidates and polling agents. In Durham, political parties do appoint polling agents, but their role is very clearly defined. They cannot interfere with the issuing of ballot papers. They can ask people for their numbers, but many, rightly, do not give them. They may be asked for the number of people who have voted, and will be happy to give that. If polling agents were able to sit over the polling clerks, as he suggests, that would be wrong because it might intimidate them. The polling clerks I have dealt with in the many elections in which I have been either an agent or a candidate are very professional individuals. If the hon. Gentleman has evidence of a polling clerk issuing ballot papers incorrectly, then he must provide it. He should not throw it out in such a casual manner as he has today. I would be very uncomfortable with polling agents taking on the role that he suggests in sitting over the clerks when they are doing their job.
I accept that the hon. Gentleman’s community is very different from the one that I represent, but I find it strange that voters take other people into the polling station to vote. In my experience of the elections in which I have been an agent or a candidate, if someone arrives who is infirm or needs assistance, the polling clerk will take them into the voting booth to assist in pointing out the names of the candidates. I have never known polling clerks allow a relative, or a candidate or representative of a political party, to go with somebody into the voting booth. The message is the quality and rigour of the polling clerks, who, in my experience, are professional individuals who know what the rules are.
In Durham, when polling clerks take numbers at polling stations, it is made clear that they must sit way outside the balloting area—if it is a school, usually in a corridor; if it is a community hall, usually outside—so that they cannot in any way interfere with the process. I have sometimes taken infirm people to vote. The usual procedure is to take them to the door and indicate to the clerk, who will take over from there so that we do not get involved in the process.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd said, the hon. Gentleman is doing us a disservice in perpetuating the myth that electoral fraud is a huge problem in general, because it is not. I accept that it is a huge problem in certain areas, and the people involved should be dealt with properly.
I find it strange that a Liberal Democrat has such a schizophrenic attitude towards CCTV given that the Liberal Democrats pride themselves on saying that CCTV is against civil liberties. I would not want any recording device in polling stations, because the ballot is private. No matter how many assurances people were given, they would fear that a CCTV camera was recording or indicating which way they had voted.
Sir Peter Bottomley
First, we have had for some time the experience of having police officers in polling stations from the days when they might have been needed to keep order. Secondly, surely the proposed CCTV camera is intended to show the ballot paper being issued and put in the box, not to go behind the screen where the paper is marked.
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman says that, but what is to prevent someone from shifting the camera so that it covers the voting booths? My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd also made a good point about cost. I think that many electors would find it intimidating to be filmed while they were performing their democratic right. I therefore think that this is a very strange suggestion from the Liberal Democrats. They rail against the Big Brother state a lot, but this would be taking the Big Brother state to a huge and strange conclusion.
I also find it strange that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley is in favour of people marking their fingers. Again, I am not sure that that would go down well in my constituency.
John Hemming
As I said, I think that it creates an emotional attachment, but I do not think that it is a good solution.
Chris Ruane
For the record, I want my hon. Friend and the rest of the Committee to know that that was a joke. I was not honestly suggesting that we put ink on the end of people’s noses.
Mr Jones
Having known my hon. Friend for many years, I know his sense of humour and will take his comment in that spirit. I certainly would not support electors having to have their fingers, noses or any other part of their anatomy dipped to show that they had voted.
I think that robust training for polling clerks is important. The safeguards are already there. The hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) spoke about police officers at polling stations. That is a good idea where there are problems. If there are problems in certain wards, as hon. Members think there are, the Bill allows for community support officers to take that role. That is a good move because it will free up police resources. The mechanisms are there to ensure that the ballot is run fairly.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley made the accusation that somebody was giving out polling cards to the Labour party. His speech was interesting in that he said that the problem affects all parties, but did not name one case that involved his party, when we know that the Liberal Democrats have been at this on an industrial scale in parts of the country. If he has evidence of polling cards being given out, he should report it. The only problem comes if he bombards the police with 50-odd minor complaints. In that case, even I would consider him an irritant.
Mr Jones
I am not being funny, but if somebody turns themselves into a serial complainer, I can understand why an authority would start to ignore some of the complaints. The hon. Gentleman would be better off concentrating on specific cases on which he has hard evidence, rather than throwing complaints around like confetti, which is not helpful.
The other thing that will help the process is individual registration, which will ensure that the register is as up-to-date as possible. I reiterate that elections in this country are largely run fairly and correctly. We should keep reinforcing that message. When we had the pilots for all-postal and e-mail voting elections in the early 2000s, the report from the Electoral Commission was very positive. A council by-election in my area achieved a 67% turnout. If the number of votes cast is increased, the effect of minor fraud is diminished, so getting turnout up is important.
I accept that the constituency that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley represents is very different from mine, and that there are communities that engage in electoral fraud. The effort should be made in those places, rather than there being a scatter-gun approach. I therefore see no reason for the new clauses. They are quite weak, because they do not prescribe what the action would be. They are not well thought out.
Finally, we should praise the many local returning officers and council chief executives who work very hard and are scrupulous in running elections.
Sir Peter Bottomley
The speech from the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was interesting. It was like saying that 788 planes landed safely at Heathrow and that only one crashed, and then asking why we are spending our time on the crash.
The new clause is a probing suggestion that something should happen. Clearly, something should happen. It would be good if the Minister said that he will get the Association of Chief Police Officers together with the Electoral Commission, electoral registration officers and others to come up with a way of finding out how much of a problem there is—that means research—and a statement of how the police gain the information on which they can base prosecutions when problems are reported.
Chris Ruane
I refer the hon. Gentleman to my earlier intervention. That research is already in place. I referred to a parliamentary answer from a few weeks ago, which stated that there are one or two cases a year. We need to get this problem into perspective.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I respect the hon. Gentleman, but I am trying to develop a slightly different approach. I will do so very briefly.
First, there should be a one in 100 check on postal vote applications. Secondly, there should be a retrospective check on whether postal votes have been used by the elector themselves. Thirdly, there should be a place where people who think that postal votes have been stolen—literally and physically stolen—can report it, and there should be a way to check those reports. Lastly, the police should be asked what it is they lack that would make it possible for them to investigate complaints and suggestions of impropriety properly. I think that that approach would solve the problem.
Mr Heath
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in this Committee, Ms Clark.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) has raised an important point about impersonation and other electoral fraud offences. He was very fair in what he said at the beginning of his remarks. First, he said that this is a probing new clause. I therefore do not intend to dissect the wording of his new clauses to any great extent, because I do not think that he intends to press for a Division. Secondly, he was fair in saying that electoral malpractice is not confined to one party. We all need to be aware of it, to be on our guard against it and to take all appropriate steps to ensure that it does not happen, either in our own parties or in the wider electoral process. He, of course, recounts what he has experienced in Birmingham, and it is perfectly proper for other hon. Members to raise issues that reflect the experience in their areas.
We have traditionally been extraordinarily complacent in this country about our electoral administration arrangements. We have assumed that most people play the game according to the rules, and most people do. However, in making that big assumption, we have sometimes omitted to take elementary steps that would be considered perfectly normal in other jurisdictions to prevent the possibility of those who do not want to play by the rules doing things that we would not consider to be normal.
As I indicated earlier in the passage of the Bill, I have considerable experience of monitoring elections overseas as a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Indeed, I have led international monitoring missions in a number of countries. The things that I have seen done in other countries, which we say in international forums are the things that we would like to see, are completely omitted in our country. Some of the things to which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley referred, such as the use of transparent boxes to avoid ballot stuffing, are normal in most new democracies. It is normal in most new democracies for representatives of parties to act as observers in polling stations as a trust-building measure. Indeed, it is common in a lot of countries to have a method of indicating that somebody has voted, such as the use of dye. Those are not measures that we should or need to take in this country, but it is important that we do not have a complacent view of fraud, or an old-fashioned view that such things cannot happen in the United Kingdom—they can, and we should be on our guard.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
Does the Deputy Leader of the House agree that the police in this country, perhaps unfortunately, have traditionally taken a relaxed view of electoral fraud—it is almost as if it is not a proper crime? Does he welcome noises from senior police officers in the past few months to the effect that they have got that wrong and will be more stringent in future?
Mr Heath
I mentioned in the debate on an earlier group of amendments the extraordinarily valuable work that has been done between the Electoral Commission and the Association of Chief Police Officers. That work, which has involved comparing notes and finding best practice, has brought it home to local police officers that electoral fraud is their responsibility, and that attempting to undermine our democratic process by doing things incorrectly is a serious offence and should be taken seriously.
That has not always been the case—Governments, too, have not always taken electoral fraud seriously. I give credit to the previous Government because they started to take it seriously latterly in legislation, but I emphasise on behalf of this Government that we take electoral fraud very seriously indeed and regard the integrity of the ballot as a top priority. That is precisely why we introduced the Bill and measures such as individual elector registration.
We need returning officers and their staff to work closely with local police forces, candidates and agents to raise awareness of voting offences and the proper procedure for reporting concerns. The joint guidance from ACPO and the Electoral Commission in advance of a poll, for which the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) asked, will give examples of best practice on detecting malpractice. It will be enormously valuable. For example, polling station staff will be issued with guidance notes routinely on how to identify individuals they suspect of committing a voting offence, and on what to do if they are not satisfied that a person is a genuine or eligible voter.
Under existing law and under the Bill, polling station staff can ask voters certain prescribed questions before issuing them with a ballot paper, including asking whether they are the person named on the register under the relevant entry and whether they have already voted in that election. Staff can withhold a ballot paper from those attempting to vote more than once. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley that the process of a tendered ballot is not well understood, but it ought to be in such circumstances. Staff must also mark each voter’s name on the register before they are issued with a ballot paper to prevent people from voting several times.
Sir Peter Bottomley
Marking prevents the person who should be casting the vote from doing so, because someone will have used their name before.
Mr Heath
That is precisely the point about the tendered vote. The person who subsequently arrives at the polling station can vote—whether a personation has occurred is determined at a later stage.
Similarly, measures are already in place to prevent postal voting fraud. All postal voters must supply postal vote identifiers—a signature and a date of birth—both when they apply for and when they return a postal vote. Anyone seeking to abuse a postal vote that is addressed to someone who has moved out of a property would have to replicate a signature and know the date of birth to pass the rigorous checking system. In addition, the Government will introduce secondary legislation to make it mandatory—this deals with an issue raised by the hon. Member for Worthing West—for returning officers to check 100% of postal vote identifiers on return postal vote statements. Taken together, those measures will make it very difficult for a third person to intercept a postal ballot and commit personation.
The evidence is that the number of instances of personation remains relatively low. That is not complacent—in certain areas under certain circumstances, there is a higher number, but overall the rate is relatively low. The encouraging thing is that the joint report by the Electoral Commission and ACPO shows a reduction in the proportion of reported cases following the 2011 referendum compared with previous ballots. The existing safeguards in legislation and practice perhaps are beginning to have an effect, but we are introducing further safeguards in the Bill.
As I said, I shall not dissect the new clauses, but the concern we have with the proposals made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley is that they are vague—unidentified measures could be taken by delegated powers, of which hon. Members have traditionally taken a dim view because they allow Ministers a freer rein to introduce new measures. If we were to take additional powers to deal with such problems, we would want to do so in primary legislation.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I apologise for having only recently come into the Chamber, but what the Minister says on personation is interesting. Polling officers check for personation, but many people do not speak English, particularly women from ethnic minorities. Will such difficulties be addressed?
Mr Heath
The most important thing is the sequence of events. First, we want to get the register right. The Bill gives a much wider responsibility to electoral registration officers to get the registers complete and accurate. An accurate register makes it more difficult for somebody to commit an offence at the point of voting. The easiest thing in the world is not to vote fraudulently but to register fraudulently. That is why we are keen to make the register accurate and complete in the first instance.
Secondly, when tendering a postal vote—voting at the polling station is not an enormous problem for the communities to which the hon. Gentleman refers—the identifiers should mean that there is no problem. The Electoral Commission constantly monitors arrangements to ensure they work for everybody.
There are structures in place to detect suspicious applications to register. One thing hon. Members spoke about earlier was the liaison between EROs and the dedicated single points of contact within local police forces. That ought to improve police performance in that respect. The key is the introduction of individual elector registration, which the Bill allows and which will remove some scope for malpractice.
I criticised my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley for the vagueness of his proposals. I know he will take that in good part, because he did not intend to prescribe. I do not go along 100% with some of the things that came up in the debate. I am not sure, for example, that having CCTV in every polling station makes sense. Some polling stations in my constituency are lucky to have electricity, let alone CCTV.
In addition, there are confidentiality issues. I would be slightly worried about such a change. This country has a long and important tradition of secret ballots, and some people are already worried that simply being ticked off contradicts that principle. It does not, of course, but having a television camera trained on them might give them cause for concern, so this is not something we want immediately to embrace.
John Hemming
I am sorry that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is not here to hear the answers to his points. First, he confused tellers and polling agents. Secondly, it is wrong to say that this is a one-community issue. It might be limited to certain areas of the country, but it is not an issue for just one community, and I resent his assertion otherwise. There is clear evidence that it goes wider than one community, and in Birmingham, as I said, it has gone on for 100 years, which shows that it is not confined to one community.
The issue is one of evidence. At the moment, if somebody’s vote is stolen through personation, there is no evidence of who did it and nothing for the police to investigate, hence there is a hole. I agree with the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) and disagree with the Deputy Leader of the House about cameras. They would not cause a problem, because simply identifying who picks up a ballot paper does not track which way they cast it. I agree with him, however, that it would be better to withdraw the new clause and for there to be a continuing discussion. It is important that we do not forget about this issue, because it does go on, and as it currently stands there is no system to pick it up. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 3
Representation of the People Act 1985 (Amendment)
‘(1) The Representation of the People Act 1985 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 1 (Extension of parliamentary franchise) omit subsections (3)(c) and (4)(a).
(3) In section 3 (Extension of franchise for European Parliamentary elections) omit subsections (3)(c) and (4)(a).’. —(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.)
Currently, British citizens can qualify as overseas electors only if they have been resident in the United Kingdom within the previous 15 years. This also applies to Members of the House of Lords for European Parliamentary elections. This amendment would remove this qualifying period, so that British citizens could qualify as overseas electors even if they had ceased to be resident in the United Kingdom more than 15 years before.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Temporary Chair (Katy Clark)
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 5—Explicit right of British citizens to register to vote and to participate in elections—
‘(1) The Representation of the People Act 1983 is amended as follows—
(2) Insert “a British citizen,”
(a) in section 1 (parliamentary electors), in subsection (1)(c), after “either”,
(b) in section 2 (local government electors), in subsection (1)(C), after “is”,
(c) in section 4 (entitlement to be registered as parliamentary or local government elector), in subsection (1)(c), after “either”,
(d) in section 4, subsection (3)(c), after “is”, and
(e) in section 7B, subsection (3)(e), after “is”, in the first place it occurs.’.
British citizens are currently enfranchised in statute as Commonwealth citizens, not British citizens. This amendment is to introduce a statutory entitlement for British citizens to be enfranchised as British citizens.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
At present, under sections 1 and 3 of the Representation of the People Act 1989, as amended by section 141 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, British citizens can qualify as overseas voters only if they have been resident in the UK in the previous 15 years. The new clause would remove this qualifying period altogether, so that all British citizens could qualify as overseas voters, regardless of when they were last resident in the UK.
According to the Institute for Public Policy Research, 5.6 million British citizens currently live abroad. The shocking truth is that although, as of last December, about 4.4 million of them were of voting age, only 23,388 were registered for an overseas vote, according to the Office for National Statistics’ electoral statistics. Out of 4.4 million potential overseas voters, only 23,000-odd are actually registered! Half the problem is the difficulties of the registration process, which I brought before the House during the clause 1 stand part debate on 18 June, but the other half of the problem is the cut-off limit or qualifying period.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
A number of Members have major overseas firms based in their constituencies—I have Toyota, Rolls-Royce and Bombardier—and have constituents who go to work abroad for these firms for many years. It is outrageous that they might be working for firms based in our constituencies and not have a vote. What does my hon. Friend think about that?
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
My hon. Friend has read my mind. I shall happily address her issue a little later, but she makes an extremely good point.
The House and the British people should take no pride in the fact that so few citizens living abroad are registered to vote. At a time of decreasing voter turnout, the overseas vote represents a potentially large pool into which we could tap, if the House was minded to accept my new clause. This issue will not go away, and today is a timely opportunity to tackle it. Each year, more and more British citizens, for one reason or another, choose to move abroad, as my hon. Friend said. The ONS international passenger statistics show that an estimated 130,000 British citizens left the UK in the year to March 2011—up from 119,000 in the year to March 2010. In 2008, according to the IPPR, of those who moved abroad, 55% did so for work-related reasons, as my hon. Friend said, 25% for study and only 20% for retirement. With an ageing population and particularly with the increased opportunities to work and study abroad, people are bound to continue to leave the UK.
In most other countries, both developed and emerging, voting rights for parliamentary elections depend solely on nationality, not on an arbitrary time limit. For example, US nationals can vote in presidential, congressional and state elections, regardless of where they reside in the world. Similarly, Australian nationals can vote in the equivalent elections there, no matter where they live. However, the most startling example comes from our nearest neighbour. French citizens in the UK have just elected a new President and taken part in parliamentary elections for one of the 11 Members of Parliament whose job it is solely to represent French people abroad. They include the French MP for the newly created constituency of North Europe, who is in the French Assembly to represent French people living in the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia and the Baltic states.
The right of Spaniards abroad to vote is enshrined in article 68 of the Spanish constitution. Likewise, the Portuguese constitution states explicitly that the single Chamber, the Assembly of the Republic, is
“the representative assembly of all Portuguese citizens”.
As a result, all Portuguese citizens living abroad have the same right to vote in Assembly elections as fellow citizens living in their home country. The simple fact is that the citizens of the US, Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and all these other countries have better voting rights for their citizens abroad than we do for British citizens living abroad.
For a democracy as ancient as ours, it is not an exaggeration to say that it is a stain on our democratic principles that our citizens are placed at such a disadvantage when they have moved abroad compared with citizens from those other countries. Her Majesty’s Government is very happy to collect tax from most of the enormous number of people involved, but denies them the vote. British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years are completely disfranchised from voting in the UK. There is certainly no lack of interest among British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years. Whenever I have addressed branches of Conservatives Abroad, this has been a contentious and profound issue. I understand that the Labour party has a similar organisation and that the Liberal Democrats have recently established their own version, so I have no doubt that this issue will have been raised by other parties’ organisations as well.
The states in which these British citizens reside do not allow them to vote as residents, because voting rights are based on nationality and not residence, and they cannot vote in the UK on the basis of the current rule, for which there is no obvious rationale. I challenge the Deputy Leader of the House to state where there would be any disadvantage in abolishing the rule. The consequence of the rule is that many British citizens living abroad are in a state of electoral limbo, unable to participate in any election whatsoever. That seems to be a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.
It is not just me saying this, as a number of learned Lords agree. Lord McNally, the Liberal Democrat Minister of State for Justice, said:
“I do not think there is a rationale…for the figure of 15 years, five years or 20 years”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 March 2011; Vol. 725, c. 1133.]
The noble and learned Lord Lester of Herne Hill said on the same day:
“I am not aware of any rationale for how these periods have been chosen. They seem to be entirely arbitrary”—
the point I was making—
“and, I dare say, discriminatory in a way that violates Article 14 of the European convention read with Article 3 of the first protocol.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 March 2011; Vol. 725, c. 1024.]
A number of learned people clearly think that this rule is unfair.
Kelvin Hopkins
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and it sounds like a good case, but I wonder if he is going to touch on the practicalities of enabling people to vote, particularly in countries that are not in western Europe.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
This is all about one group of people who live overseas and last registered here less than 15 years ago, who currently have the absolute right to register as overseas voters, compared with another class of overseas voters living abroad for more than 15 years since they last registered here. One has the absolute right to register; the other lot do not. It seemed to me to be an arbitrary cut-off date; as the noble and learned Lords I cited said, that seems quite wrong.
Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
My hon. Friend mentioned a category of British citizens who could not vote at all. Membership of the European Union clearly gives them rights to vote in local government elections—in Spain, France or wherever. They have the right to do so here. Another point arises from the debate about whether 15, 20 years or whatever is the appropriate period of time. We have arrangements that deny people the vote and deny them membership of the House of Lords, for example, if they are not resident here or do not pay taxes here. There comes a point at which a tax equation is relevant, along with the duties and responsibilities of being a British citizen. That is different from where someone has lost connection in many ways over a long period with his nationality, responsibilities, duties and allegiance to the Crown.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
My hon. Friend raises two issues. The first is whether British citizens are entitled to vote in EU local elections and European elections, as is the case in most European countries. The fact of the matter is that British citizens living overseas for more than 15 years since they last registered are not able to register here in order to vote in our general elections. Secondly, he says that these people have lost allegiance to the UK. I think that that is a slur on many of them. I think many people living abroad have a huge interest in what goes on in this country. I suspect that most of the voters who are unable to register still pay their taxes, or at least some part of them, to the UK. It seems to me that if the UK is prepared to take their taxes, why should they be denied a vote? I just cannot see the case for that.
Sir Peter Bottomley
My hon. Friend has clearly explained this arbitrary cut-off of 15 years. That is understood. Does he agree that the electoral registration officer is obliged to register people who are entitled to vote here and, if so, who should have the responsibility to register those overseas who are entitled to vote, irrespective of whether they have lived abroad 15 years or more since they last registered here?
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. It is up to the electoral registration officer to consider the application on the basis of the individual involved and the facts of the case. He would no doubt be entitled to make further inquiries—the Minister will put me right if I am wrong—if there were any doubt or confusion about whether the person had been registered here within the 15-year period, outside it or indeed about whether the person was entitled to vote at all.
Sir Peter Bottomley
I understand that, but I was asking a slightly different question. Should someone have the responsibility for trying to recruit these people to register in the same way that domestically resident people like myself are if they are entitled to vote?
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
That is a very fair point. I think that Her Majesty’s Government should have an interest in their citizens abroad. Just as it makes publicity available for British citizens to register on British electoral rolls, it should do the same thing for British citizens abroad. That would not be difficult in the age of the internet.
Fundamentally abolishing this arbitrary and unjust time limit is mainly about giving those people who have spent their lives abroad, often working, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) said, for British companies, for international organisations and for UK Government Departments and agencies, and who are actively pursuing and often promoting British interests, the right to have their say in the future government of this country. Universal suffrage is in the universal declaration of human rights, to which this country is a signatory. This arbitrary cut-off time limit is totally contrary to that principle and the declaration. This is an opportunity for my hon. Friend the Minister to rectify this wrong. If he will not accede to my suggestion today, I request that he take this matter away and carefully consult on it, as I am absolutely certain that the other place will be interested in it.
Mr Streeter
I shall speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) in endorsing new clause 3. I believe that our electoral rules for overseas citizens were fashioned in a bygone age. I realise that the 15-year rule is relatively recent—
Mr Streeter
Thank you—a very important distinction, I am sure. I am saying that I believe our rules for people living overseas who are British citizens have been fashioned in a bygone age. When we consider the world today, a young person can work anywhere, as we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) who mentioned the large employers in her constituency, Many students are studying mandarin Chinese and may spend much of their lives—more than 15 years—in China. Many of our fine and bright young people spend more than 15 years in America. Given our weather, many people retire to sunnier climes overseas.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) spoke about people giving up their allegiance to this country and the Crown, but many people who aim to retire overseas for ever, end up coming back. The stats are quite staggering on that. People have not given up their allegiance and they will certainly have family here and perhaps property here. As we have heard, they may pay taxes here. I believe that because we have this old-fashioned mentality, we lag behind many of the countries that my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds mentioned in respect of our systems to ensure that British citizens living overseas can vote.
The important point about the 15-year rule, apart from the fact that there is an absolute cut-off point after 15 years, is that it creates confusion in the minds of many of our citizens overseas as to whether or not they are allowed to vote, so they do not even look into it fully. I have looked into the process we put in place for people to register to vote in this country, and I have found that it is just about as old-fashioned as could be imagined. I realise that there are security issues, but I think that the Government should consider making the system more streamlined and more user-friendly and allowing greater use of the internet.
I wonder whether, because ours is one of the oldest democracies in the world, we have become a bit complacent. Other countries are so much more dynamic and proactive in encouraging their overseas citizens to vote. I was staggered to learn that well over a million French citizens who were not living in France at the time voted in the recent presidential elections. As we heard earlier, in this country we mustered the staggeringly small number of about 30,000 Brits out of the 3.5 or 4.5 million who were eligible to vote. Fewer than 30,000 had registered to vote, and of course even fewer than that will have actually voted.
I think that we have become complacent about the importance of our democracy. We make only feeble efforts to encourage our active service people to vote, and I think that our lack of support for British citizens living overseas may be another indication of our complacency. I believe that we need to do an awful lot more to remove the barriers and the confusion, and to improve the system. A French person living in London can go to the French embassy to vote in the French presidential elections, but we cannot go to the embassy in Paris. It is all rather odd, and the Government should look into it. Perhaps, in the time-honoured Liberal Democrat tradition, they could even set up a royal commission, but we probably need rather more dynamic action than that.
I support this important new clause, which takes us quite a long way towards being able to send a strong signal to Brits living abroad. We need to be able to tell them, “We still think that you are an important part of our democracy, and we want you to engage in our democratic processes. We want you to register and we want you to vote, because you have a valuable part to play in our country.” Let us remove the 15-year barrier, and make a much more dynamic and proactive effort to encourage Brits living abroad to engage in our democratic processes.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter). For one thing, he has more or less covered many of the points that I was going to make. I will not follow the traditions of the House by simply restating them, but will press on and make one or two observations.
When it was drawn to my attention that we had imposed a time limit on British citizens living abroad, it struck me that we were sending a rather perverse message. I think that if the Committee supported the new clause we could send a very different and positive message, as well as doing a service to the democratic process. I do not think that we should say to a British citizen who has served his or her country before going abroad, be it through industry, public service, civil service or the military, “At the end of your working life—at the end of the time for which you have served your country and paid your taxes—we intend to disfranchise you if you exceed a Government target.” I am sure that none of us would wish to find ourselves in that position, and to feel that we had been effectively disfranchised for having done the right thing for most of our lives.
Why are such people disfranchised? It is quite a simple question, but I can find no convincing reason for it. I looked at the reports of some of the original debates about the issue in the House, going back as far as 1984, but none of them seems to have addressed the problem. In my opinion, ridding ourselves of the limit would involve no real cost to the Government, but only a benefit.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Surely the reason is that the system was built on a 19th-century rather than a 21st-century model. I should be grateful to my hon. Friend if he pushed for a system whereby people voted in the countries in which they live, and the results were telegraphed to this country.
Nick de Bois
That is entirely the point. We are living in a new world, and in a world that changes at a much faster rate than it has ever done before. There are no barriers to voting. There may be challenges for us as politicians when it comes to reaching the electorate, but that is for us to deal with. It is for the electorate to have free and fair access to the exercising of their vote. As a result of the changing world—the changing technologies, and of course the British consulates that are represented around the world—it is now possible for people overseas to vote in person.
I should like to make one important distinction. The Committee has an opportunity to move with the times by allowing overseas voters—I mean overseas British citizens; I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) is not still present, as I should be in trouble if he were—to exercise their democratic right. I was struck by a paragraph in a public letter from a Mrs Margaret Hales, MBE, who lives in Spain. She sums things up rather well, and if the Committee will forgive me, I shall read out the full quotation. She wrote this letter to the Deputy Prime Minister, and said:
“I am immensely proud that one of my ancestors was Emmeline Pankhurst. One hundred years ago she struggled through arrest, imprisonment, force-feeding and the derision of the then Liberal government”—
I make no partisan point—
“finally to gain universal suffrage. Had she been alive today she would have supported the help given to free Libya, she would have been behind William Hague in his negotiations to secure freedom in Syria and his support of Aung San Suu Kyi. But she could never ever have dreamed that her relative would be writing to you today to remind you, the British Deputy Prime Minister, that universal suffrage is the ultimate goal of every democracy and that the government is there to serve its citizens and not to disfranchise them.”
I rest our case.
Mr Heath
I am grateful to the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) for introducing this new clause. We had a taster of the argument it raises earlier in our proceedings, when he got some answers from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is constitutional affairs Minister, but I shall attempt to give some more answers today.
The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting question, ably supported by the hon. Members for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). If I was asked to defend 15 years as the right length of time for qualification, I am not sure that I could come up with a convincing argument, other than the fact that that is what Parliament decided. Parliament has considered this matter on a number of occasions, and it has come up with different definitions of the appropriate qualifying period. On no occasion hitherto has Parliament decided that there should not be a qualifying period, however; it has always said, “Well, there must be a point at which somebody’s links with their country of origin are sufficiently tenuous not to entail having a vote.” Whether that is the correct view is for the House to decide. I merely report the view the House has taken when it has discussed this matter previously.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Surely the fact that somebody would want to register their overseas vote to take part in a general election in this country is sufficient evidence in itself that they have sufficient interest about what is going on in this country to merit being allowed a vote, rather than being denied it.
Mr Heath
The hon. Gentleman makes a strong point. I am simply reporting the fact that when Parliament debated this matter in the past, it always took the view that there should be a limit.
As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, many other countries take a different view on the appropriate franchise. Some provide for their citizens to vote in domestic elections, while others have specific Members of their legislatures who represent the diaspora. I recall once meeting a charming gentleman who was an Italian Senator. I think I represent a fairly large constituency in the context of the UK Parliament, but its size paled into insignificance when compared with that of his constituency, which, if I recall correctly, was Australasia, Asia, Africa and Antarctica. That is a fairly large part of the world. I do not know whether he visited every parish council on a regular basis, but he certainly represented a lot of Italians who were living abroad. The point is that different countries find different ways of addressing this issue.
Our position at the moment is that we give eligibility to vote to people within 15 years of their living abroad. We extend that also to Members of another place for the purposes of voting in European elections. Some exceptions are made in respect of members of the armed forces, persons in Crown service, persons working for the British Council and their spouses and civil partners.
Mr Heath
So we would still need to have a responsibility on overseas electors to register, rather than have the registration officer seek these people in order to enable them to be registered. Having said that, if we can find better and easier ways to enable that to happen, we should do so; the advent of IT processes may well do exactly that. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his new clause. He has made some very important points and I undertake that the Government will give them serious consideration. We will see whether there are proposals that we might wish to bring forward in due course to address some of his points.
Mr Shepherd
I support new clause 5. The reasoning behind it is clear and has been discussed over a long period. The fact is that we only have the right in this country to vote through our membership of the Commonwealth; we do not have the right to vote as British citizens. I do not intend to take up a great deal of time, because I appreciate that the debate is under considerable time pressure, but the question of the relationship between citizens’ rights and duties has become increasingly disconnected.
The history of our nationality laws goes back to a great and long imperial past, and each of our Representation of the People Acts has, in a sense, tried to catch up with the world as it is. We have no greater right than as a citizen of the Commonwealth, and I wanted to see on the face of a Bill—it has been suggested that this should happen—that a British citizen has a right to vote, and for that citizenship to be the category.
A Library note first gave me cause for concern, along with the response to a query from me about the House of Commons research paper that accompanies the Bill. That response from the Library concerned the question of the accuracy of the information presented to Members of Parliament. I make no criticism of the Library, as it is the finest resource and the most remarkable people are employed there. They often make a difference to the quality of our speech from the arguments we were originally able to articulate according to our own ability. The Library states:
“The Research Paper refers to ‘British Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK’ in order to explain the franchise arrangements succinctly. As we agree, the RPA 1983 refers to qualifying Commonwealth citizens and Irish citizens as being able to vote. I believe that most British citizens do not understand that they come under the term ‘Commonwealth citizens’. Other disqualifications are also relevant, such as meeting the residence requirements of the RPA, and ensuring that the prisoner disqualification does not apply. The Research Paper did not cover these in detail either.”
That is why the House does not necessarily know the background.
The debate has gone on for a long time. The arguments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) about the length of residency overseas that is necessary to maintain the vote here was a matter of considerable controversy in the 1980s, when those provisions were introduced. At that time, the Labour party was deeply concerned about the proposals on the false assumption, I think, that everyone who could afford to retire abroad or live for long periods in countries such as Spain would predominantly vote Conservative. That is perhaps why we have that mismatch. My experience of life is that one cannot necessarily tell how anyone will vote.
I want to commend the previous Prime Minister. I know that that is an unusual position for a Conservative and for many citizens, but he set in train the consideration of some of our Crown authority issues, such as passports and so on. He commissioned Lord Goldsmith to conduct a review of citizenship and its relationship to the vote. The review was called “Citizenship: Our Common Bond”. The anxiety with all this in relation to the Representation of the People Act 1983 is that citizenship is not necessarily a common bond any longer, as can be seen in some ways. People have dual nationalities that they can take on for whatever reason or convenience, so they can have British citizenship but no sense of allegiance to the institutions or the country. That is the way the world is going, with a divorcing of the relationship between loyalty, allegiance and a sense of pride in one’s country. As a country, we are one of the most fortunate in the world and there is an enormous sense of pride across all communities about being British. Our right to vote as citizens of Britain should be in legislation.
I note the remarks that two people have made about this issue. First, our spokesman in the Lords during the passage of the Representation of the People Act 2000, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, spoke to an amendment at Lords Committee stage to include the term “British citizen” in that legislation. He thought that should be set out clearly. I mention, in passing, that during the debate Lord Jopling suggested that if the UK were expelled from the Commonwealth there would be real problems with the wording in the legislation. That is a silly but technical point, in which there is truth. More importantly, Lord Goldsmith, in his report on citizenship, touched on the right to vote and recommended restricting the right to vote to UK citizens. These were his words:
“However, I do propose that government gives consideration to making a clear connection between citizenship and the right to vote by limiting in principle the right to vote in Westminster elections to UK citizens. This would recognise that the right to vote is one of the hallmarks of the political status of citizens; it is not a means of expressing closeness between countries. Ultimately, it is right in principle not to give the right to vote to citizens of other countries living in the UK until they become UK citizens.”
That is the argument behind this measure. It is an old argument and a new argument in the sense that people do not realise they have the vote only through their Commonwealth citizenship. I would like to see the measure in the Bill.
I know that the Government must think about this and that there would be consequences, but 800 million or 900 million Indian citizens, if they gained admission here—I do not think we could possibly take 800 million but if they did gain admission—would have the right to vote in British elections. I do not think that is right. This is a big and substantive issue that affects our relationships. Citizenship by birth or through the expression of allegiance, by wanting to be a citizen and acquiring citizenship, are justification for the vote. These arguments mirror those adopted elsewhere and in other countries. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to look closely at this matter and see whether an amendment could be tabled in the House of Lords to support my new clause.
Mr Heath
The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) addressed two factors in his remarks, the first of which was the extent of the franchise and the different categories of people who are allowed to vote in our UK parliamentary elections. Secondly, he addressed the definition in the Bill, which his new clause addresses, of whether it is an accurate description, rather than dealing with the qualification.
The Representation of the People Act 1983 sets out those who are entitled to vote in UK parliamentary elections as those who have attained the age of 18 and are Commonwealth citizens or citizens of the Republic of Ireland who are resident in the UK. In order to register, Commonwealth citizens must have leave to enter or remain in the UK, or not require such leave. I accept that is a historical anomaly, but it has been in place for many years and reflects our historical ties with Commonwealth countries. There are reciprocal arrangements with Ireland, as British citizens resident in the Republic of Ireland have been entitled to vote in elections to the Irish Parliament since 1985. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not enter into a debate about whether that franchise is right, because that does not relate to the purpose of new clause 5.
Mr Shepherd
I am trying to make the specific point that our Representation of the People Act does not include the phrase “British citizen”.
Mr Heath
Precisely so. The 1983 Act uses the term “Commonwealth citizen” and, by definition, while we remain part of the Commonwealth—I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about what would happen if we left the Commonwealth, but I do not think that that is expected in the near future—that includes every person who is a British citizen, a citizen of the British overseas territories, or a citizen of one of the Commonwealth countries listed in schedule 3 to the British Nationality Act 1981. People are therefore entitled to vote in this country as British citizens, but the term used in legislation is “Commonwealth citizen” because the franchise extends wider than just British citizens and citizens of British overseas territories.
I think that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that new clause 5 would have no practical effect on the franchise, but it would be a declaratory provision setting out that the right to vote in an election in this country is conferred by virtue of being a British citizen, and that that right is extended to Commonwealth citizens. It would therefore make a distinction between the two.
Mr Shepherd
What other democracies in the world do not designate their citizens as having the right to vote? Does not the Minister find it extraordinary that, of all the countries in the world, we are the one with a mechanism under which people have the right to vote only by virtue of membership of an international organisation, the policies of which we have no control over?
Mr Heath
We are not entitled to vote only through Commonwealth membership. We are entitled to vote as British citizens. British citizens are Commonwealth citizens, and that is why the legislation is drafted in such terms. I understand why the hon. Gentleman feels that it is important to make such a distinction, because I would hope that those of us who hold British citizenship are proud to do so. I am also proud to be part of the Commonwealth, which reflects the great history of our nation, and our electoral law takes account of that.
There are aspects of British electoral law in which such a distinction is necessary, and therefore is specifically stated, because an entitlement is restricted to British citizens. For example, the Representation of the People Act 1985 sets out that only British citizens are entitled to register as overseas electors. When the distinction is necessary in legislation, it is made. While I understand the intention behind new clause 5, it is not necessary to change the construction of our electoral law in such a way. I fear that if it were enacted, it would introduce a potential inconsistency with other legislation which uses the phrase “Commonwealth citizen” to include British citizens and other Commonwealth citizens.
However, the hon. Gentleman raises an important point and I will go away and consider it further to see whether there is a useful distinction that ought to be made in our legislation. I hope he will not press the new clause today, although it is useful for him to have raised the issue. Perhaps we should at some stage address the question of whether that distinction should be made. Perhaps we should at some stage also look at the franchise, but now is not the right time and the Bill is not the right place to do that. Nevertheless, he is perfectly entitled to raise the point today.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
With the leave of the House, may I comment briefly on what the Deputy Leader of the House said in response to my new clause? He said clearly that the Government were keen to look at the issue. He rose to my challenge and raised a few minor problems with extending the franchise beyond 15 years for overseas voters, and he responded to some of my hon. Friends, whom I thank for supporting me in the debate, about some of the difficulties of the registration process.
Of course everybody wants the integrity of the electoral register to be maintained to the utmost degree. Only those who are eligible to register should register. We all understand that. The Deputy Leader of the House asked how an electoral registration officer would promote who is entitled to register as an overseas voter, which in the Bill is a positive duty. May I suggest that for overseas voters, that would be only a reactive duty? The electoral registration officer would have to react only to a valid application that was made to him.
May I suggest to the Deputy Leader of the House and to the Committee a practical way of dealing with the issue? The hon. Gentleman should table an amendment on Report or an amendment should be tabled in another place to take powers to extend but not reduce the 15-year period at a time when the Government are satisfied that the registration process is robust and maintains the integrity of the electoral register. He would be able to do that in tandem with the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, his hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who told the House last week that he would look at the measures for the registration process that I suggested to him—namely, using the passport as an identity document, abolishing the annual requirement to register, perhaps introducing a permanent opt-in for people who had registered validly once, and the possibility of using British embassies so that people could register and, even better, vote there. The Cabinet Office Minister undertook to look carefully at those measures, which could be introduced under the Bill and under the existing legislation and secondary legislation. I suggest that the Deputy Leader of the House table an amendment to take a power to extend the 15 years when the Government are satisfied that those measures are in place. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my new clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
Voting procedure
‘(1) Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983 (c. 2) (parliamentary elections rules) is amended as follows.
(2) In rule 37 (voting procedure) after paragraph (6) insert—
“(7) A voter who is in the polling station or in a queue outside the polling station for the purpose of voting at the time specified for the close of the poll shall be entitled to apply for a ballot paper under paragraph 1 above and a ballot paper shall be delivered and the voter entitled to vote in accordance with this rule.”.’. —(Mrs Laing.)
Currently, voters who are in a queue at a polling station at 10 pm but who have not yet been issued with their ballot paper are unable to cast their vote. This amendment would allow for ballot papers to be issued to any registered voter who is in the polling station or in a queue outside the polling station at 10 pm, in order that they may then cast their vote.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring new clause 4 before the Committee. As is explained on the amendment paper, the clause would allow for ballot papers to be issued to any registered voter who is in the polling station or in a queue immediately outside the polling station at 10 pm or whatever time the poll closes, in order that they may then cast their vote. The Committee will recall what happened at the last general election, when more than 1,000 voters in 16 constituencies were denied the right to vote.
As the law stands, voters who are in a queue at a polling station at 10 pm but who have not yet been issued with their ballot paper are unable to cast their vote. Both the Electoral Commission and the House of Lords Constitution Committee have called on the Government to change the law to ensure that voters are not disfranchised as some were at the last election. There is precedence for such a provision because the Scottish Government recently changed the law for local elections in Scotland to allow for voters in queues at polling stations at 10 pm on the close of poll to cast their ballots.
I take the findings of the Electoral Commission very seriously in this respect, and the main factors that the commission identified as having contributed to the problems in 2010 were that there was evidence of poor planning assumptions in some areas; that there was use of unsuitable buildings and inadequate staffing arrangements at some polling stations; that contingency arrangements were sometimes not properly triggered or were unable to cope with demand at the close of poll; and also that current restrictive legislation, and therefore the presiding officer having no ability to apply discretion, meant that those who were present in queues at polling stations at the close of poll, were not able to be issued with a ballot paper.
The main conclusions of the Electoral Commission published in May 2010 recommended that the law must be changed to allow people queuing at polling stations at 10 pm to be able to vote. The commission also noted that local authorities and acting returning officers must take steps to improve their planning—we all agree with that—and must review their schemes for polling districts and polling stations to make sure that they allocate the right numbers of staff and electors to each polling station. All of these practical measures should be taken, and I hope now will be taken as a result of the fact that we saw 1,000 people at the last general election being deprived of their votes. In addition, the structure for delivering elections must be reformed to ensure better co-ordination and consistency, and, as we have debated during the last few days in other parts of this important Bill, returning officers should be more accountable for the way they manage elections. Nevertheless, I want to give the House the opportunity to consider whether we here in Parliament ought to add this clause to the Bill in order to give not just the clear direction but the power to a presiding officer to act in the way I describe in new clause 4, which will ensure that everybody who is present at the right time at close of poll should be allowed to cast their vote.
We do not want to discourage people from voting. We are in the business of getting as many people to vote as possible. We should not have artificial restrictions that stop people voting when they turn up to do so. At the same time, if an unforeseen incident occurs, which means that some people are at the polling station but do not have their ballot paper in their hand, the presiding officer should have a certain amount of discretion, within very strict parameters that I am setting out here, to allow people to cast their votes. It cannot be right that we in Parliament should take action that stops people voting when they have a legitimate right to do so. It goes against everything that we are trying to do in expanding democracy and encouraging people to vote and have a say in the government of our country.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
What happens under the current arrangements if there is suddenly a medical incident, such as a car accident, outside a polling station at a quarter to 10 and the police have to secure the area while the ambulance men deal with anyone who is hurt? Would the polling station close at 10 regardless, because that seems a bit silly?
Mrs Laing
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. That is exactly the sort of contingency that I am asking the House to consider in new clause 4. At present, if an incident occurs that prevents a potential voter entering a polling station or slows down their progress there from the car park, the tube or train station, the bus stop or the zebra crossing, nothing can be done about it.
Mrs Laing
I agree. If the presiding officer is standing at the door of the polling station and sees that there are people just about to come in at 10 minutes to 10 but they are being prevented from doing so by some very good and unforeseen reason, and if he knows that when they come in it might be two minutes to 10 and there is no way 10 or 15 ballot papers can be issued in two minutes, under the current arrangements he can do nothing about it. He has to say, “Too bad. That happened and you lose your vote.” That seems entirely undemocratic and simply wrong.
This matter has been considered by the courts, which have held that
“where a ballot paper has been duly issued to an elector that elector should be allowed to complete it and put it in the ballot box provided this is done without undue delay. However”—
and this is the crux of the matter—
“no ballot papers should be issued after the time of close of poll.”
So if a person is standing in a queue of five or six people—it does not have to be a crowd—at five minutes to 10, and in front of them someone is having difficulty identifying their name, or is perhaps suffering from a disability that makes it difficult for them to give their name quickly to the polling clerk—
Mrs Laing
Yes. My hon. Friend once again comes up with an interesting contingency. Supposing someone at the front of the queue collapses or becomes ill and attention is thus diverted, the five or six people who are legitimately standing there at 10 or five minutes to 10, expecting without any problem to be given their ballot paper, cannot be given one if the clock strikes 10. That just cannot be right.
The courts—this is a statement of the law at present—have ruled:
“We are of the opinion that the true dividing line is the delivery of the ballot paper to the voter. If he has had a ballot paper delivered to him before”—
10 pm—
“he”—
I say “he”, because I think that the judgment was delivered before the female of the species was entitled to vote. Let us therefore bring this judgment of the courts up to date: when I say “he”, I mean “he” or “she”.
The judgment continues, finding that
“he is entitled in our judgment to mark that ballot paper and deposit it in the ballot box before the ballot box is closed and sealed. This interpretation of the enactment…appears to us to give a simple, definite, and just rule of procedure… As the polling commences at”—
7 am—
by the officials, and the machinery being ready then to supply ballot papers to voters who apply for them, so in our view the poll must be no longer ‘kept open’ beyond”—
10 pm—
“the officials then ceasing to supply ballot papers to applicants.”
That position, as stated in court, was confirmed most recently by an election court in Northern Ireland, which in 2001 stated:
“It was the duty of the presiding officer to close the poll at 10pm by ceasing to issue any more voting papers. So long as voting papers were issued by 10pm, however, if electors marked them and deposited them in the boxes without delay the votes were valid.”
The Electoral Commission, in guidance published for the Scottish elections in May this year, issued strict directions to presiding officers on what exactly should happen. Some people have argued that it would not be possible to determine where a queue ends and where exactly the cut-off point should be for people who are entitled to vote, but that criticism has to be nonsense. The presiding officer—surely, in a position of responsibility—will be able either to close the door or to usher people inside the polling station, and to say exactly where the cut-off point should be.
The guidance states:
“If there is a queue shortly before 10 pm”—
the presiding officer should—
“find out if anyone waiting is delivering a postal vote so that they can hand in the postal vote before the 10pm deadline; Make sure that nobody joins the queue after 10pm; If there is a queue at 10pm and if the polling station can accommodate all the electors in the queue, ask electors to move inside the polling station and close the doors behind the last elector in the queue”.
That is so simple. The guidance continues:
“If the polling station is too small to accommodate all the electors in the queue, a member of the polling station team should mark the end of the queue by positioning themselves behind the last elector in the queue”—
again, terribly simple and straightforward. The presiding officer, the guidance notes state, should also:
“Explain to anyone who arrives after 10 pm and tries to join the queue that the poll has closed and that, by law, they cannot now join the queue to be issued with a ballot paper.”
All that is terribly simple and straightforward.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does the hon. Lady agree that under the Bill a police officer, or a local community support officer acting with the same powers as the police, could be in attendance so that if there were any dispute they could ensure that people knew exactly where the end of the queue was?
Mrs Laing
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. However, as I am sure the Committee will appreciate, this is not about an outbreak of violence, a riot, a demonstration, or unruly electors behaving in a somehow inappropriate fashion; it is about decent, law-abiding potential voters who turn up at a polling station before 10 o’clock, or whenever the close of poll might be, and find that because of some unforeseen contingency they do not get as far as having their ballot paper issued by that time.
Let me explain the difference that new clause 4 would make. At the moment, most people think that if they are in the polling station at 10 o’clock, they will get their ballot paper and be able to vote. That is a reasonable position, and the new clause would make it law. It is an unreasonable position to say that someone who has arrived at a polling station ahead of 10 o’clock, and for some unforeseen reason does not have a ballot paper issued, cannot still have one issued for a few minutes after that time. Nothing in the new clause would mean that the poll stayed open beyond 10 past or quarter past 10. We are talking about a very small amount of time for the sake of fairness. In the 2010 general election, 1,000 people were denied the opportunity to cast their vote when they had every right to do so. I am simply asking the Committee to bring the law up to date in order to give everybody who has the right to vote the chance to cast that vote.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Evans. I wonder whether you have had notice that a Treasury Minister intends to come to the House to make an urgent statement on the news concerning the alleged market manipulation of the LIBOR interest rate, for which Barclays has today been fined a record sum by the Financial Services Authority. The mortgage interest rates of hundreds of thousands of our constituents up and down the country depend on LIBOR. We need to know how widespread this market manipulation is across the financial services and banking sectors, and whether a Minister will come urgently to the House to talk about how the Government intend better to regulate the LIBOR-setting process.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I have been given no indication that any Treasury Minister intends to come to the House to make a statement, but I am sure that his point has been heard by those on the Treasury Bench.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. It is also a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). She is a doughty campaigner and defender of the values of the British constitution that she holds so dear, and it is incumbent on the Committee to listen carefully to what she has to say on these matters.
The hon. Lady outlined the purpose of new clause 4 in great detail and stated that it has the support of the Electoral Commission and the House of Lords Constitution Committee. The reason for the new clause relates to the problems on 6 May 2010, when 27 polling stations in 16 constituencies experienced problems with queuing in the period leading up to 10 o’clock and beyond. The constituencies included Birmingham, Ladywood; Hackney South and Shoreditch; Hackney North and Stoke Newington; Liverpool, Wavertree; Milton Keynes North; Sheffield, Hallam; and my constituency of Penistone and Stocksbridge. In total, more than 40,000 polling stations were in use during the 2010 elections. As well as the 650 parliamentary elections, there were local elections and mayoral elections.
Just over 1,200 voters were affected by the problems, leading to just over 500 complaints to the Electoral Commission within a fortnight of the elections. The strength of feeling was high. For example, 100 or more students at Sheffield, Hallam staged a protest after 10 o’clock, having been denied a vote. If that protest had carried on, perhaps the mechanisms to which the hon. Lady referred would have been activated. We are glad that they were not.
Given all that we have heard and read in recent years about voter disengagement, it is heartening that people cared so much about exercising their right to vote that they were prepared to queue. In Sheffield, Hallam and in my constituency, they did so in the rain. That defied all the pundits, who said repeatedly in the years before the 2010 election that people were disengaged from politics, that they were not bothered and that turnouts were going down. In fact, the 2010 election saw an increase in turnout. For that, we should be grateful. This House should feel an obligation to ensure that arrangements are in place to avoid any citizen ever again being denied the right to vote in any election.
The Electoral Commission report on the May 2010 problems identified two key problems. First, in the constituencies where problems were reported, there were common factors in the failure of returning officers to make sufficient arrangements for the elections. Despite their being issued with numerous publications detailing guidance, checklists and guidebooks, the planning processes adopted were inadequate. In particular, the plans were unrealistic and inappropriate, and in some cases were based on unreliable assumptions. On top of that, there was inadequate risk management and inadequate contingency plans were put in place in the constituencies that were affected. For example, voters experienced problems with the space in some polling stations, because they were small, cramped and unsuited to dealing with a steady stream of voters. That was not the primary cause of the problems, but where those conditions existed they impeded the throughput of voters and limited attempts to deal with the building queues.
Secondly, in several of the areas where there were problems, the allocation of voters per polling station exceeded the ratio recommended by the Electoral Commission. The recommended ratio was one polling station per 2,500 voters. In some instances, the latter figure was as high as 4,500. Staffing levels also varied considerably across the piece, with some returning officers providing only one presiding officer and one polling clerk, despite having voter ratios that demanded a much more generous staffing allocation. The commission lays down guidelines on the numbers of clerks and voters allocated to each station.
The combination of elections also made things difficult.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way on that point. I have argued strongly that we should never have two elections on the same day when that includes a general election. It is not so much of a problem to have local elections and another election on the same day because the turnout is naturally much lower than for a general election. A general election should be a stand-alone election. We should never have local elections and a general election on the same day.
Angela Smith
Like me, the hon. Gentleman represents a constituency that experienced problems. The commission makes the point that the combination of a general election and other elections might have created problems. In some London constituencies, there were local and parliamentary elections, and mayoral elections. That was given as an explanation for the queuing problems, but the commission has pointed out that there were no such problems in some constituencies that had more than one election. I do not believe that having two elections on the same day is the root cause, although it can make things more difficult. Having two elections on the same day certainly made the count more difficult—I did not get my result until 7 o’clock in the morning.
Angela Smith
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point—I believe he is referring to European nationals. We would have to rely on the commission for evidence of large concentrations of European voters in any one constituency or polling district in order to make that case.
Perhaps the most astonishing failure of all is that almost all the returning officers identified by the commission as experiencing problems with queues had underestimated turnout. In some cases, predictions were based on local election turnouts since 2006; in others, the turnout from the 2005 general election was taken into account. That was despite guidance from the commission—given well in advance of the election—that plans for elections should be based on an assumption of a higher turnout in 2010 than in recent elections, including the 2005 general election. I find it astounding that any returning officer could assume that the turnout in a general election would be at local election levels.
Finally, the monitoring of polling station performance on the day and the plans for drawing down additional staffing were not robust, and some staff at stations failed to notify returning officers of problems early enough. By any calculation the commission’s report demonstrates the need to improve planning and processes for elections, as the hon. Member for Epping Forest pointed out. The commission recommended in the report that returning officers should review their approach to planning for adequate polling station and staffing provision at future elections, and made it clear that it would be more prescriptive on those points in its guidance.
The report also made it clear that there had been an unprecedented late surge in voters at some polling stations, to such an extent that extra staffing would probably not have guaranteed that all voters would get their ballot papers. That is the key point—the hon. Lady made it very successfully.
The commission therefore recommended the changes laid out in new clause 4 and pointed out that the restrictive approach of the UK to the close of the poll does not compare well with electoral legislation in many other countries. In New Zealand, for example, all electors who are inside the polling station at the close of the poll are entitled to vote. In Canada, I believe that everyone in the polling station or queuing is entitled to vote. That is the approach that we want to adopt through new clause 4, which is designed to implement the second part of the recommendation in the commission’s report.
I will briefly illustrate the provision’s value by rehearsing the problems experienced in two constituencies on that day two years ago. In Birmingham, Ladywood, 2,678 electors were eligible to vote at the polling station where the problem materialised. Turnout for the election increased to 40%—up from between 12% and 18% in the previous three years—but the station had just one clerk and one presiding officer. Just before 10 o’clock, the presiding officer asked staff to confirm the time on their watches. This is how we run elections in this country! One staff member’s watch was about 5 minutes slower than the others’, but the presiding officer took it as the correct time and issued ballot papers until that particular watch said 10 o’clock. At that point, the presiding officer sealed the ballot boxes and closed the polling station. The police were eventually called to disperse the crowd. Can we wonder!
It is estimated that between 65 and 100 electors, some inside and some outside the polling station, were turned away without having been issued with ballot papers. If we take the time according to the slowest watch in the room as the time at which we close the ballot, surely we are making a nonsense of the 10 o’clock cut-off point. Does it not indicate more than anything else that legislation needs to be more flexible in order to ensure that everyone at the polling station gets the right to vote. That is a really important point.
At Sheffield, Hallam, the problem was quite significant and involved three polling stations, at which many voters were denied the right to vote. St John’s parish church polling station in Ranmoor—a place I know well—was allocated 4,469 electors, excluding postal voters, and had one presiding officer and three clerks, with additional staff deployed in the evening. In the polling stations that had a problem, 480 electors were affected, most of them at St John’s. This was the polling station at which a protest was staged at 10 o’clock, with 100 students refusing to move and the police having to be called in.Despite the best efforts of the Sheffield returning officer to ensure that this polling station, which had a large allocation of voters, had four members of staff, and despite the deployment of extra resources, nothing could be done to get everybody in to vote. That suggests that new clause 4 would be a vital change to our electoral legislation.
It is obvious that we need to change the law in accordance with new clause 4. The constituents of many Members were denied the right to vote. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) has consistently raised this issue in the House and is a co-signatory to the new clause. As I said, I had 70 voters denied the right to vote in Penistone. We all feel strongly that this needs to be addressed. It is not just about students. Penistone is hardly awash with students: it is a little market town, on the edge of the Peak district, with an engineering past. It does not have a big, posh student population.
Sheffield, Hallam, on the other hand, has many student voters, 340 of whom were turned away after 10 o’clock that night. On the day following the election, Friday 7 May, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), now the Deputy Prime Minister, made a statement in which he said that he shared the “bitter dismay” of voters who had to wait in long queues and that it
“should never, ever happen again in our democracy”.
At a meeting with constituents on 21 May at the King Edward VII school in his constituency, the Deputy Prime Minister was asked about the problem again, and he quite rightly described it as “a fiasco”. Responding to one student in the audience, he said:
“I share your anger. I can’t think of a better illustration of how broken our politics is.”
One thing I think we can say for certain about our Deputy Prime Minister is that understatement is definitely not his style.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute. I rise with some trepidation to debate “clause 4”, but it nevertheless has my wholehearted support. I want to provide a few anecdotes in support of the new clause. In my view, the issues it deals with are not confined to the last general election, as they have been going on for many years. On the basis of experience of fighting elections in my part of London over 38 years, I know that turnout will double between the opening of the poll and 6 o’clock in the evening and the period after that until the close of the poll.
In my part of the world, many people travel long distances or have small shops that they keep open for quite extended hours. At the conclusion of their work, they travel back and join long queues to seek to exercise their right to vote. This is not confined to one or two polling stations, as it applies to many. This has been a problem for a long time.
The 2004 London mayoral election and the European elections were held on the same day, causing dramatic confusion in polling stations and leading to serious problems, with long queues forming—certainly in my neck of the woods. Some people were confused about what they were voting for, but the need to issue them with large numbers of ballot papers caused extensive delays.
In the London mayoral elections of 2008, the number of Londoners wanting to vote for Boris Johnson as Mayor and to kick out Ken Livingstone was so overwhelming that it led to huge queues in polling stations, particularly in areas where large turnouts were not expected, causing further problems. In the general election of 2010, because of the activities of both political parties—certainly in my constituency—people regularly had to queue for an hour to exercise their votes during the day.
The presiding officer has discretion over what constitutes a polling station. If it is a Portakabin, it is fairly straightforward, but if it is a school the question arises of where the polling station begins and ends—is it the school gates or the school hall? That causes further consternation.
The key point is this, however. When people are keen to go to the polling station to express their views by voting, it is vital for them to be able to get there and to queue for however long it takes for the ballot papers to be issued, and for however long it takes those ahead of them in the queue who have also sought to be there validly before the 10 pm watershed to register their own votes. I can think of nothing more frustrating for someone who has travelled a long distance back from work, has arrived at home, has said “Oh yes, I must go and register my vote”, has reached the polling station at 9.45 pm, and has joined the queue than to be denied his or her vote because the queue is so long, and to be told by the presiding officer “Very sorry; you arrived too late.” We can imagine the reactions of people who have travelled long distances or closed their shops quite late in the day in order to go and vote.
The problem has been raised with me many times in connection with polling stations in north-west London. I think it important for us to set in stone in the Bill that if someone has reached the polling station, validly, before 10 pm and is in the queue, that person’s vote will be recorded. I do not think it acceptable for presiding officers throughout the country to be able to interpret the position in different ways. If a presiding officer says “According to my watch it is 9.59 pm so I shall allow you to vote, although the time is actually 10.10 pm”, that is not a valid way of operating.
It cannot be right that elections could be won or lost on the basis of a presiding officer’s judgment of what the time is. That is clearly not what Parliament wants, or what the people want. What we want is absolute clarity, so that there is the minimum wriggle room for a presiding officer in the interpretation of the rules and the maximum capability for people to register their votes validly in the way that they wish.
Bob Stewart
Does my hon. Friend agree that presiding officers should be given a certain amount of flexibility when it comes to deciding exactly where their polling station is, and should have enough flexibility to be able to say “In the interests of democracy, I should make this decision”, or does he believe that the legislation should be so prescriptive that it lays down in black and white exactly what should happen? I tend to think that it would be quite good for the presiding officer to have a bit of wriggle room, and to have a say in what should happen when unforeseen circumstances occur.
Bob Blackman
I ask my hon. Friend to imagine this scenario. A person gets home late, arrives at the polling station, parks in the school car park and dashes through the doors of the school at 9.59 pm, but of course the polling station is in a hall further on. The person then gets lost because the signage is not good enough, or, worse still, is misdirected and goes to the wrong polling station, because there is often more than one in the same building. Whose fault is that? It is the person’s fault, because he or she is the voter.
Such questions are difficult, but what is clear is that the law should say that if the voter has arrived in the polling station, or in the queue at the polling station, his or her vote should be recorded. What should not happen is that a person arrives at the place where the ballot papers are issued, only to be told “I am sorry, but it is one minute past 10 and we have closed the polling station, so you are not allowed to vote”—although the person has been in the polling station and validly queuing for 15 or 20 minutes, or perhaps even half an hour. That is what needs to be clarified. There should be the minimum discretion in that respect, but the maximum discretion for the voter.
Mrs Laing
I listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s description of the incident that might occur. I should make it clear to the Committee that new clause 4 is not intended to help someone who runs into a polling station at one minute to 10. Each individual has a responsibility to leave enough time in which to find the polling station. The new clause is intended to help people who arrive at the polling station at 10 minutes to 10 thinking that they have plenty of time, but, as a result of some incident that then occurs—there may, for instance, be too many people or bad organisation—the ballot paper is not issued at 10 minutes to 10. I think my hon. Friend would agree that that is quite an important distinction.
Bob Blackman
I agree. The most important thing is that people who have arrived at the polling station well before the time deadline and have formed a queue and are waiting for their ballot papers to be issued should be allowed to register their vote.
We are not only talking about general elections. In 2014, for example, there will be European and local elections, probably on the same day. There are often multiple elections, and further problems can arise in such circumstances. In a general election, turnout tends to be high, of course, but these problems can occur even in local elections, when turnout is lower. We, as democrats, must seek to ensure that people are given the optimal opportunity to register their votes.
It is often not appreciated that we have huge numbers of differentials in elections, in that different people are entitled to vote in different elections. In the 2010 elections, in my constituency 10% of the voting population were from eastern Europe and were not eligible to vote in the general election but were eligible to vote in the local elections. That caused substantial confusion at certain polling stations, particularly later in the day. People were arguing about whether they should have a ballot paper. That can add to delays in issuing ballot papers to others, so people who have left sufficient time to cast their votes can find that they are not issued with ballot papers. That is fundamentally wrong. I want us to give a strong steer in law to returning officers about what they should do in such circumstances, and there should be the minimum of discretion for interpretation.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Sadly, in the 6 May 2010 elections my constituency was seriously affected by events that were similar to those that unfolded in other constituencies, and people were, understandably, very upset. I am a strong supporter of new clause 4, therefore. As there is cross-party support for it, I hope the Government will agree to add it to the Bill.
Three elections were taking place in Hackney South and Shoreditch on that day. Our elected mayor was up for re-election, and we had the local council elections and the general election. As a result there were three different ballot papers, each of a different type. One required electors to vote for three individuals, the general election was a first-past-the-post election with one vote to be cast, and there was a preferential system for the mayoral elections. That sometimes required some explaining. Hackney has learned lessons from that experience, which I shall discuss later.
The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) suggested that general elections should always be held as stand-alone elections. I disagree. Although we are all democrats and are fond, especially in this House, of people voting, we have seen in respect of the timing of the European elections, which are usually held a month after the May elections, that it can be difficult to persuade people that it is in their interests to come out and vote twice in quick succession. There is also a huge additional cost attached to holding elections at separate times when they could be doubled up. There is therefore much sense in holding elections at the same time.
Of the six polling stations that were affected in the borough of Hackney five were in my constituency: the Ann Tayler children’s centre, which experienced some of the worst problems, the Trinity centre, St John the Baptist primary school in Hoxton, the Comet day nursery, and Our Lady and St Joseph Roman Catholic primary school in De Beauvoir. Those polling stations did not have a huge number of electors, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) suggested some polling stations were over-optimistic and covered a larger number of electors than they could cope with, but that was not the case in Hackney. In my constituency, in each instance the total number was less than 2,500, which falls well within the tolerance levels.
In some polling stations there had been queues at other times of the day, but by about 9 o’clock—and certainly by 9.15 or 9.30—there were serious issues. One extra staff member was deployed at the Ann Tayler centre at 9 pm, where there were particular problems, but, a whole hour before the close of polling, that was not enough to deal with the scale of the difficulty or the queues. That is why I will discuss what Hackney council has done more generally to try to solve this problem.
Angela Smith
In Sheffield Central, which fortunately did not have a problem even though all the other constituencies around it did experience problems, the majority is only 165. That totally underlines my hon. Friend’s point.
Meg Hillier
I thank my hon. Friend for that. We need to ensure that we tighten this law now to make it fairer for electors. They would be upset that, having gone to the expense of another election and having come out to vote again, the election result and the will of the people could be affected by such a situation. That is indeed a serious concern. Rather than repeat the excellent arguments made, I rest my case there. I hope that the Government will introduce this change in this Bill to ensure that electors in my constituency never have to have this terrible experience again.
Mr Kevan Jones
I congratulate the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on tabling the new clause. She explained clearly that what we need to do is include in this Bill—we have an opportunity to do it—what is “reasonable” and “practical”, as she put it. We are not asking for any major changes to the system we use for elections in this country, but it was quite clear in 2010 that large numbers of people in some constituencies were denied the right to vote even though they intended to wait in queues to get into the polling stations, as the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) said.
One issue that needs to be clarified is that the new clause would help returning officers to know exactly what the law is, as there were different responses in different parts of the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) mentioned Sheffield. In the Sheffield Hallam constituency, long queues of students waited to vote for the now Deputy Prime Minister. I doubt they will have that problem at the next general election, but if they have such problems when they turn up to vote him out, those who have turned up to vote in reasonable time should be able to cast their ballot.
One issue mentioned by the hon. Lady, with which I agree, concerned the preparation for elections. For nearly 11 years, I was a councillor in Newcastle upon Tyne and in 2010 I went back to help with the general election in my old ward of Walkergate. I was shocked by what the Liberal Democrat administration had done to that ward by reducing the number of polling stations. Not only did people have to travel large distances to get to the polling station, as I mentioned the other day, but there was a capacity problem in trying physically to deal with the number of electors. Making the law clear would be helpful. As I understand it, in one polling station in Newcastle the returning officer took what was referred to afterwards as a “practical” and “common sense” step by allowing people into the polling station if they had arrived at 10 o’clock, locking the doors and allowing them to vote. If the law was clear, it would, as the hon. Lady said, be quite simple to know where the end of the queue was.
The new clause is long overdue and would help not only returning officers but the many thousands of constituents who were denied their vote in 2010. As we have said on numerous occasions during the passage of this Bill, that vote is the core of our democracy.
Mr Heath
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Evans, and am grateful to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) for tabling her new clause. We have had a valuable debate involving the hon. Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) and for North Durham (Mr Jones).
It is simply unacceptable that significant numbers of electors are unable to cast their vote due to the organisation of a polling station. It should never happen again and we must take steps to ensure that it does not. Those Members who have expressed their concern and even anger on behalf of their constituents are perfectly in order to do so, as such things should not happen.
I should also point out that only a small number of polling stations were involved: only 27 out of 40,000 across the country. That is not a representative sample of electoral arrangements in this country, and there were not many large queues at polling stations at close of poll that left people unable to cast their vote. That in no way reduces the impact on those who were affected, but it at least puts it in context.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), has made it clear in everything he has said on this issue in Committee and in this House that the primary cause of the problems was a lack of effective planning by returning officers. That will be effected not by legislation but by administrative action to make sure that they do the job better in future to avoid those unacceptable scenes. They should ensure that enough polling stations are provided to accommodate the electors in each area. It is not acceptable for there to be too few polling stations. They should ensure that polling station staff have sufficient time and training to manage the flow of electors well, as they generally do in most parts of the country and in most elections. In some ways, the firm closure of the poll at 10 pm should concentrate returning officers’ minds to ensure that, given that it is hardly news that the poll will close at 10 pm, they have the right arrangements in place to ensure that a complete and smooth passage for those arriving seeking to vote is effected at that hour.
Meg Hillier
I am concerned by the tone of the Minister’s remarks. If this was simply an administrative error, why did we see it across the country in such a widespread way? There had not been problems before in my constituency but there were on this occasion. The council acknowledged that there were things it could do better but this could still happen again. I cannot see what the Government would lose by backing this new clause.
Mr Heath
I am sorry that the hon. Lady asks why this happened in such a widespread way given that we have just established that it happened at only 27 polling stations out of 40,000. I do not think we can say it was a widespread problem. It was a significant problem but not a widespread one.
Mr Heath
No, I really do not have time if I am going to do justice to responding to the debate.
The hon. Member for Epping Forest did an excellent job with her Select Committee on the pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill. I know that she chaired many of the sessions in the absence, unavoidably, of the Chair and that she took great care to make sure that my hon. Friend the Minister was quizzed by the Committee, when it took evidence and brought forward its responses. That is why I was a little surprised when she said that her Committee backs these changes to the legislation because that suggests that I have completely misread paragraph 98 of her Committee’s report, which was produced under her chairmanship, which states:
“On the issue of close of poll the Minister set out the Government’s position that the issues around close of poll in the 2010 election were ‘largely around poor planning, poor resource management’ and that an attempt to legislate in this area could create more problems than it solved. We agree with the Minister that in this area careful planning and allocation of resources are likely to be more effective in ensuring all those who are eligible can access their vote without resorting to legislation.”
That was the view of the Committee at the time.
Mrs Laing
The Minister is right to read out that part of the Committee’s report, but since then the Electoral Commission has looked at this matter in greater detail, has taken further evidence and has recommended very strongly that new clause 4 should become part of the Bill. I have listened to the Electoral Commission and that is why I have brought this new clause before the House.
Mr Heath
I do not think the Electoral Commission has changed its position. [Interruption.] I do not think it has. It took evidence but it took no further evidence after the hon. Lady’s Committee took its evidence and came to a conclusion. I am grateful to her Committee for supporting the view that the Minister took.
Any changes that we introduce create more potential for problems. For example, this is not what the hon. Lady has proposed but if we were to introduce discretion on the part of returning officers they would be open to challenge because of the way in which they applied that discretion. I am glad that she has not gone down that road. [Interruption.] She says, “No one suggested it,” but that was suggested by one of her colleagues. That is why I am responding to that point in the context of this debate.
There is a suggestion that the problem could be addressed by reference to the limits of the curtilage of the polling station, but that would be extremely difficult because it varies enormously among polling stations. The hon. Lady’s proposal is probably the least bad option, but the queue itself presents problems with definition and management, which is why it is extremely difficult to accede to such a measure. The situation did not happen widely before 2010 and has not happened widely since, but we must ensure that it is not allowed to arise, and the key to that is proper management.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Evans. The Division bells in the immediate vicinity of the Chamber do not seem to have rung, and I am not sure whether that means that they have not rung elsewhere.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and shall ask for the matter to be investigated immediately.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I now have to announce the result of Divisions deferred from a previous day. On the motion relating to the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Notification Requirements) (England and Wales) Regulations 2012, the Ayes were 478 and the Noes were 9, so the Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Remedial) Order 2012, the Ayes were 290 and the Noes were 197, so the Question was agreed to. On the motion relating to European documents on European Semester in the United Kingdom, the Ayes were 285 and the Noes were 203, so the Question was agreed to.
[The Division lists are published at the end of today’s debates.]
Third Reading
Mr Heath
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I thank Members from all parts of the House for their contributions to this debate. I speak not just as a Minister who is interested in the Bill, but as a business manager in saying that I am particularly gratified that we did not over-programme the Bill. We allowed the House the discretion to use the time sensibly, and it has done so responsibly. We have covered all the issues that are contained in the Bill and done them credit. I am grateful to Members from all parts of the House for that.
I believe that the electoral register is a key building block for our democracy. It is important that it is accurate and complete. I hope that my responses and those of the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) in Committee have answered all the concerns and questions that have been raised, and shown that the Bill will make the register more accurate and at least as complete as it is now. I hope that it will make it more complete.
On the conduct of the Bill’s passage, I thank hon. Members who have taken the time to write explanatory statements on the amendments that they tabled. That will have helped to ensure that the pilot is useful to the Procedure Committee in deciding whether to adopt the change in the longer term.
At the risk of this sounding like an Oscar acceptance speech, I also thank members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee for scrutinising the Bill before it was introduced to the House. They did an excellent job. The Bill is much better for their comments and the care they took over their work. That would not have been the case were it not for the receptive interest shown by the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean, and the team of officials who supported him, in responding sensibly to the suggestions that were made. That shows the value that pre-legislative scrutiny can add to the development of legislation. The way in which the House has debated the Bill has shown that it has responded to that approach, and it has dealt with the Bill in a timely fashion.
I look forward to the debate continuing in another place. I reaffirm that it is the Government’s intention to publish further draft secondary legislation by the time Parliament returns in the autumn so that we have all the necessary tools to understand what is proposed as we take the Bill forward.
The Bill will tackle electoral fraud by speeding up the introduction of individual electoral registration, which will require electors to register individually, rather than by household. In moving to that system, individuals will have to provide information to verify their application. The Bill will modernise our electoral registration system, thereby facilitating the move to online registration, and make it more convenient for people to register to vote. Our aim is to take steps to tackle electoral fraud, increase the number of people who are registered to vote and improve the integrity of the register. The safeguards that the Bill puts in place, such as the use of data matching to confirm and automatically retain about two thirds of electors on the register, the moving of the 2013 canvass to early 2014, and the introduction of a civil penalty for those who fail to make an application when required to do so, will help us to achieve that aim. As we have debated today, the Bill also includes provisions to improve the administration and conduct of elections, which will serve to increase voter participation and make a number of improvements to the running of elections.
The fact that we have elections based on the highest integrity, with registers that are as complete and accurate as possible, is the bedrock of our democratic system. It is incumbent on all hon. Members to make that a reality, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Wayne David
Like the Minister, I commend the programme agreed for Committee, which was sensible and appropriate—all hon. Members have had plenty of opportunity to air their support or concerns. I hope that that sensible approach is continued for the next constitutional legislation that we will discuss, namely the House of Lords Reform Bill, and that there will be plenty of time for Members to consider all the more important issues.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
I do not want to risk your wrath, Mr Deputy Speaker, but will the hon. Gentleman tell us how much time he wants to debate that Bill?
Wayne David
As I thought I had made clear, the Opposition want plenty of time to discuss all the important issues, so that the House can come to a natural consensus. We do not want to be rushed in our consideration of a Bill that many believe is flawed. We support the principle of a referendum—want movement on it and will achieve it, despite the Government’s unreasonableness. [Interruption.] There will be plenty of time to discuss other matters.
A great deal of concern was expressed by many in the House and beyond when the Government published the draft Bill on individual electoral registration. I am pleased that, after some argument, a lot of discussion and much debate in this place and beyond, the Government proposed a number of changes. First, there were originally no proposals for an annual canvass in 2014, which would be the last opportunity before the 2015 general election. That has changed, and there will be a canvass in that year.
Secondly, there was a suggestion that there should be a permanent opt-out for individuals from the electoral register. It was proposed that, from 2014, an individual could indicate to an electoral registration officer that they did not wish to be chased during the canvass, which would mean that they could essentially opt-out of the rolling programme of registration. I am pleased that that proposal was reversed.
Thirdly, on civil penalties, to begin with, the Government said that engaging with an electoral registration officer was a matter of personal choice. Some interpreted that as saying that inclusion on the electoral register was a lifestyle choice. I am pleased that they relented on that and recognised the groundswell of opinion that registration is a civic responsibility and duty. They have also recognised that there should be not simply a criminal fine for a head of household who does not co-operate, which is the current penalty, but a civil penalty for individuals who do not co-operate. We welcome that, not because we want the large-scale introduction of civil penalties, which we do not, but because we need to underline the importance of registration to the individual, and a civil fine for non-co-operation would be an effective way to do that. All those things we welcome.
I am disappointed, however, because despite our in-depth consideration over the past few days, the Government have not relented on our other areas of serious concern. When in government, we legislated for individual electoral registration, which clearly shows that we were fully committed to the principle of IER, and we still are committed to it. We introduced the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 and were keen that it be introduced gradually to ensure that everyone entitled to be on the register was included on it. It saddens me greatly that the Government have not carried forward that approach.
As expressed by several Members on many occasions, we are particularly concerned about the boundary changes and the fact that the carry-over to the 2015 boundary changes will not happen. The boundary changes will be based on the new IER register. Our concern is that many might see that as a partisan measure. It is at precisely that point that independent commentators believe the register will be most vulnerable and that there will be the greatest possibility of a relatively small number of people entitled to be on the register not being on it.
I underline the point that I and other Members made earlier about when the results of the second round of data matching will be evaluated. Let us not forget that the first round of data matching was not wholly successful. The Government’s view of how successful it had been differed significantly from the Electoral Commission’s, but they agreed to a second round to prove whether their proposed systems were water-tight. However, the second round will not be evaluated until spring and early summer 2013—after the legislation will have reached the statute book. That is a concern. It is a clear case of putting the cart before the horse. We should have all the evidence in place first, and then move to the best possible system on the basis of that objective evidence. So that is a concern that I and many Members share.
I have referred to several academics who support my contention, but I must make one other citation. Professor Ron Johnston of Bristol university is one of the most eminent, if not the most eminent, political geographers in the country. The constitutional reform Minister and I attended a seminar at the British Academy at the end of last year. It was a Chatham House occasion, and afterwards a document was published giving a reasonable summary of the contributions from many eminent people. The contribution from Professor Johnston read:
“If, as many at the British Academy Forum suggested, the 2015 register differs significantly in its completeness and accuracy from the current one, it could have a major impact on the next new map of constituencies”.
He continued:
“These changes arising from the interaction of the new rules for defining constituencies with the introduction of IER will contribute to a considerable alteration in the nature of British representative democracy.”
That, in essence, is why we are concerned. We are concerned about the legitimacy of the next boundary review in 2015, when many people who should be on the electoral register will not be on it, so a distorted electoral map will be drawn up. That will not be good for democracy—certainly not for representative democracy, as many people will effectively be removed from the electoral process.
We expressed in Committee our concern about the lack of full carry-over for postal and proxy votes. Many disability charities, including Scope, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Mencap and Sense have expressed concern about transitional arrangements for proxy and postal votes as they are worried that many of the people they represent and work for may be disfranchised. The Government rightly carried out a pre-legislative consultation and made some changes, but I really wish they had taken more heed of the people who work closely with those who are disabled and those who are members of disabled charities. I reiterate the collective response of the organisations I mentioned, which were concerned about the
“need to ensure that the requirement for absent voters to be registered under the new system does not inadvertently disenfranchise disabled voters who rely on postal votes to mitigate the inaccessibility of polling stations.”
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
If I recall correctly, the words in the box that has to be ticked for postal voting include “at all future elections”, but that will not apply at all future elections unless Parliament decides to play around and change the rules. Does my hon. Friend agree that this might disadvantage a great many people who would wish to vote in the elections but who have, quite frankly, been led down the garden path on this issue?
Wayne David
Yes, that is a real concern. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was present when I referred to my own mother of 86. She ticked the box and assumed she would have a postal vote for the rest of her life. She will be surprised if she does not get through the data-matching exercise and finds she has to fill in a complicated form to be able to exercise the vote she thought she always had.
Those are our two real concerns, which loomed large in our Committee debate. We have other concerns as well. The role of the Electoral Commission has been referred to many times by a number of Members in debating different clauses and amendments. We think that the Electoral Commission should play a pivotal role in achieving the move towards individual electoral registration. We are concerned that the Government as a whole seem intent on undermining and degrading the Electoral Commission’s role.
We are also concerned about the lack of ring-fencing of moneys for electoral registration officers—
Chris Ruane
Before my hon. Friend moves on to ring-fencing, I would like to say that the Electoral Commission has been pivotal over the past year or so in putting the case for the proper introduction of electoral registration. Does he think that that has upset the Government and explains why they want to reduce its role, as the Electoral Commission has come up with the facts and figures and supported the arguments of the civic societies and, indeed, my hon. Friend’s position as shadow Minister?
Wayne David
I cannot, of course, speak for the Government, and unfortunately I cannot read the Government’s mind, but I believe that there is some concern in Government circles about the role of the Electoral Commission. We strongly believe that the whole electoral process needs to be firmly depoliticised—that it needs to be outside and above the short-term interests of party politics—and we think that the Electoral Commission is the key organisation that can ensure that that happens. We therefore think it important for the commission’s role to be defended and enhanced whenever possible.
I was going to say something about the ring-fencing of resources. The chief executive of the association of electoral registration officers, whose views I have quoted previously, says that there should be a firm demarcation and ring-fencing of what resources are available, so that EROs know exactly where they stand when it comes to the resources they need to introduce a new system. It is not just a question of ensuring that the right systems are in place; it is also a question of ensuring that EROs themselves are trained and retrained, and are competent to make the system work effectively. We fear that the money may not be sufficient, and it certainly is not ring-fenced.
Chris Ruane
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way yet again. About five years ago, when Labour was in office, I asked the Government to specify the amount spent per elector in each local authority area. The figure for England was not available, but I managed to obtain the figure for Wales from the Welsh Government, and lo and behold I found that the more a local authority spent on registration the greater the registration rates. I think that funding is crucial to proper implementation, and that ring-fencing the funding is crucial to the actual spending of it.
Wayne David
My hon. Friend makes his point forcefully and clearly. I pay tribute to him for the work that he has done locally and among his colleagues here in Parliament in raising awareness of an issue that is central to our democratic process. We have all come round to his point of view that it is a vital issue, but he was the trailblazer, and I want to record our particular and general thanks, as a House, for his efforts.
Let me list, very briefly, a number of other matters that concern us. In its present form, the Bill gives Ministers the power to cancel the annual canvass at any time. The Government’s reasoning is based on the idea that an annual canvass will not be required as the register becomes more complete and accurate. We believe that, although a Minister might push that through Parliament, it gives Ministers far too much power to intervene in a crucial aspect of the electoral registration process. Removing annual canvasses risks causing a marked deterioration in the quality of the electoral roll.
If we are fortunate enough to move eventually—as I think it may well be, rather than straight away—towards an electoral register that is pretty complete, we need to ensure that it remains complete. That is why it is so important that we do not rest on our laurels but ensure that the annual canvass is in place, that as many people as possible are on the register, and that they stay there.
On the first day of the Committee stage, the Minister made great play of the publication of secondary legislation. He told us that some had been placed in the Library before the Committee stage had begun. Well, that was partly true. I went to the Library and found that some secondary legislation in draft form had been placed there minutes before the beginning of the debate, so that it had not been possible to have sight of it beforehand. There were only two pieces of draft legislation there anyway, both of which refer to verification. One addresses what alternative evidence might be required if an individual were unable to come forward with a national insurance number or a date of birth. The Government suggest that there should be a list of alternative documents. The first list mentions a utility or landline phone bill, a Post Office, bank or building society statement, a debit or credit card statement, and a mortgage statement. The individual will be asked to provide two or more documents from that list. It is perfectly possible that an individual will be unable to provide two such documents, however. As we all know, ever fewer people are using landline telephones, so they would not be able to produce that document—people increasingly rely solely on mobile phones. They may not have a bank account, or own a house either, so they will not have a mortgage statement, and they might not have a Post Office account. Such a person would have a moral right to claim they ought to be on the register even though they were unable to fulfil the criteria the Government have asked of them.
In respect of the second list, it is stated that:
“Proof of name and date of birth will also need to be provided. Currently our view is that this will involve one document from the list below”.
That list consists of Commonwealth or EU passport, Commonwealth or EU identity card, and a British passport. Again, it is perfectly possible that a British citizen might not have a passport. Therefore, yet again, the Government are being too prescriptive and are not allowing people to exercise their democratic right to be on the electoral register. I have concerns about the secondary legislation, therefore.
It is a pity that the constitutional affairs Minister, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), has just left the Chamber, because I was hoping he would stay to hear about my next area of concern; I hope he returns before we vote. It is unfortunate that, despite his earlier utterances, he said that in his view, “Secondary legislation isn’t that important because we’re considering primary legislation here.” A key point we have been making throughout this entire debate is that this area of legislation is highly dependent on the fine detail of secondary legislation, as the Electoral Commission has said on numerous occasions. Therefore, the secondary legislation should have been produced in full for proper consideration, so we could have had comprehensive democratic scrutiny of what has been suggested. It is a great shame that the Government have not done that, despite our repeated requests over many months.
I welcome the fact that the legislation is to include a civil penalty, but the Government have not come forward with details about how much that civil penalty might be. We have moved forward slightly, as I was told I was not far wide of the mark when I referred to parking fines, but no specific details have been given.
We had an important debate about university accommodation and sheltered accommodation in particular. We are worried that multi-occupancy buildings such as halls of residence present a particular challenge that is not effectively met by the Government’s plan for individual electoral registration. The National Union of Students, among others, has expressed concern about the drop in electoral registration levels in university halls of residence. We share those concerns, and the Government have not come forward with any proposals that have convinced us that this potential problem will be effectively tackled.
Our very last debate was about queues at polling stations. My final disappointment is that, despite a cross-party consensus on the Floor of the House uniting, dare I say it, all reasonable people, the Government were unable to offer any convincing argument about why they did not accept the reasonable suggestion to ensure that all people could vote in general elections. I find that very disappointing.
As I have said time and again, we welcome individual electoral registration, as we legislated for it and we are convinced it is a sound principle, but we are concerned that the Government have not moved beyond their initial concessions and have not responded to the concerns that hon. Members have expressed in Committee. Therefore, I feel that we have no alternative but to vote against Third Reading. We believe that completeness and accuracy are important concepts, and we certainly support them, but the Government have not done anything near enough to make them into meaningful reality. The Bill is flawed and therefore it is unable to command our support this evening.
Mr Mark Williams
First, may I emphasise how different the Bill that we have deliberated on in Committee is from the one that was first initiated and from the Bill that was expected to be initiated when we had the Opposition day debates earlier in the year? The Government have made this Bill better. The opt-out would have made it difficult for my party to support the Bill. Concessions were made on the annual canvass and the penalty, matters that were also of great concern to those who served with me on the Lib Dem Back-Bench constitutional reform committee. I thank the Government for those huge concessions, as they are significant. They illustrate the fact that the Government have listened, that the pre-legislative scrutiny process has worked and that we have had the necessary response. To be fair to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), throughout the Committee stage he has acknowledged the extent of those concessions, appreciating and applauding them. I, too, have concerns about the release of the draft secondary legislation, although I applaud the fact that it came, albeit a little late in the day. We are told by my hon. Friend the Minister that that draft legislation will appear before the deliberations in another place.
The aspirations of completeness and accuracy are shared by all of us, on both sides of the House—or they should be. As the Bill leaves this place, I wish to make some observations. I welcome the fixed penalty. We had a good debate on the scale of the penalty and whether it should be £100—we had a probing amendment from the hon. Gentleman on that. The Chairman of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), dared to suggest that it should be as much as £500. For the people who may stumble into the prospect of having to pay this—some of the hard-to-reach groups we are talking about—a £500 penalty would be dangerous. The debate should be much more about the prominence of the penalty notice, the extent to which the invitations to register reach the people they should and the messages on those invitations, rather than the size of the fine. To some extent it has been about those things, but it should be about the size of the font, rather than the size of the fine. We wait with interest to see what figure the Government come up with, but I tend to agree with the hon. Member for Caerphilly that it should be of the order of a parking fine.
I wish to discuss the position of the annual canvass. Perhaps I am old-fashioned, but I still think there is a huge premium in politicians and agents of Government or local government actually knocking on people’s doors. The annual canvass is not just about those poignant messages on the literature or about reminding people of those all-important implications of non-registration and their civic duty; it is about getting out to those hard-to-reach groups in practice.
We talked about the student community, and the houses in multiple occupation, and my area’s 147 villages mean that there are challenges of rurality that make groups hard to reach. Someone with a serious physical disability who lives in the Cambrian mountains has added difficulties. More prominence should be given not only to their difficulties in accessing polling stations but to the means by which they register. It is important that those in the other place focus on those questions, too.
We debated the dissemination of good practice and the role of the Electoral Commission. I am glad that the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) is in the Chamber. He has been in the Chamber a lot, but every time I have tried to congratulate Denbighshire on the excellent work it has undertaken, which he has brought to the attention of the House, he has not been present. I am glad to be able to say again that some really good work has been undertaken in Denbighshire and I look forward to the Electoral Commission’s being in a position to spread that practice around the country.
Had we made it a little further through today’s business, we would have reached my new clause 10 on ring-fenced resources. I hesitate to call it a probing amendment, because I am quite aware of what happened to my last probing amendment at the hands of the Opposition. New clause 10 was an intentioned attempt to have a debate on the significance of ring-fenced resources. If we agree on the goal and the aspiration, it is that this is about guaranteeing and ensuring that local authorities have the means to undertake the job they need to do.
Finally, I paint a scenario that is a worry, but it is not a worry that leads me into the hands of the Opposition or into the Lobby with them tonight. My worry leads me to remind the Government, as I support them, that it is urgent that we get the resources, responsibilities and delivery of accuracy and completeness right. I have 12,000 students in my Ceredigion constituency, largely living in HMOs and halls of residence. Some 11 Members of this House—two on them on the Labour Benches—have been students at Aberystwyth at some point in their careers. If we do not ensure that all those students have the capacity to register individually, that will have a huge and detrimental effect when we next have boundary changes. The Ceredigion constituency is likely to be altered significantly by the boundary changes, and the prospect of another large, beautiful chunk of mid and west Wales being added to it because we have not registered hard-to-reach groups in HMOs and our student halls of residence is a huge worry. That is why the Government need to tackle that with energy, enthusiasm and vigour and to get it right.
I hope that my friends on the Opposition Benches will not take offence if I say that in the early stages of the debate there was an air of conspiracy theories. I applaud the positive way in which the Opposition have tackled issues of concern, many of which I share, but I regret that that principle of consensus will not be carried forward in the vote tonight.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
As always it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). I want briefly to outline where my party stands on the Bill.
Although we support the principle of individual electoral registration, we believe that the changes to electoral boundaries that are set to affect Westminster constituencies and possibly even National Assembly constituencies in Wales make the Bill far more contentious than it should have been. In an Opposition debate on this issue earlier this year, on Second Reading and in Committee, I warned that completeness of the register was now the major issue because of its effect on constituency sizes, a point that was made by the hon. Gentleman. Accuracy is important, but the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 has effectively moved the goalposts of electoral registration. This means that, more than ever, completeness of the register is more important because those who are not on it will have an impact on parliamentary representation for the whole community. It will not just impinge on their own rights to choose their MP or Assembly Member. That is why I believe that the EROs and the Electoral Commission have a very important role in getting completeness of the register and why they must have the resources to do so. That is why the ring-fencing point is so important. It is disappointing that we did not have a chance to debate that amendment in more detail.
I want to repeat the concerns about the possibility of a cliff-edge drop in electoral registration ahead of the next National Assembly elections in 2016. I hope that there will be regular updates via the Electoral Commission on the success of the EROs and the work they are doing on individual electoral reform to ensure that a cliff-edge drop in electors does not take place as it did in Northern Ireland when those reforms were implemented some years ago. That continues to be a major concern for us even at this late stage.
We have had a good debate on the principles and implementation of this legislation, although the concerns that I have consistently placed on the record—mostly about the effects of the 2011 Act—have, disappointingly, not been fully answered by Government Front Benchers. We will therefore be voting against the Government tonight.
Chris Ruane
It is a pleasure to speak on Third Reading—the final part of this long debate. My interest in these matters goes back not just over recent years but over the past 10 years.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) mentioned that there was a feeling of conspiracy on the Opposition Benches and he is right. There are just reasons for that because there was a settled consensus in 2009 that this legislation would be introduced with the support of both sides of the House by 2015. During that six-year period there was to be an opportunity to raise electoral registration levels to their maximum so that we could have a full analysis of the drop and get people back on the register. It was all agreed and cut and dried after many years of debate that the date would be 2015, but the first act of the coalition was to bring that consensual date forward by a year. That might have been happenstance or coincidence, or it might have been that it would benefit them.
Mr Kevan Jones
Like my hon. Friend, I am not a conspiracy theorist, but one does not need to be a conspiracy theorist to look at the facts and see where this change and the redrawing of the boundaries came from. The Conservative party has learned from the United States, where the American Legislative Exchange Council, which backed and funded the Atlantic Bridge scheme in which senior Government members were involved, did exactly the same thing to make it more difficult for people to vote in local elections.
Chris Ruane
Absolutely. It was my hon. Friend himself who put me on to relevant websites. There are specific examples across the whole of the United States, and lo and behold they happen in Republican states. They call it voter frustration or voter suppression. There are examples of the poor and the black being kept off the register going back to the 1950s.
There is a feeling of conspiracy on the Opposition Benches because the date has been brought forward by one year. As I said, it might have been happenstance or coincidence, but I think it was a deliberate attempt to gain maximum political advantage first for the 2015 election and secondly for the redrawing of the freeze date for the next Boundary Commission in December 2015. There was particular concern on the Opposition Benches, and, I hope, on the Government Benches as well—I know that some senior Liberal Democrats were concerned—when the Electoral Commission said that the number of current unregistered voters was 6 million, not 3 million. I informed the House that I had told the Electoral Commission that two years previously and that it had said, “No.” Then it did the research and said, “Yes, you are right—it is 6 million but it is a different 6 million” from the figures I got from Experian. When it predicted that that 6 million would go to 16 million unregistered voters, we were at risk of becoming like a banana republic, with 40% of our electorate being off the register.
Angela Smith
To go back to my hon. Friend’s previous point, does he share my surprise—astonishment, actually—that Government Front Benchers have never managed to come up with a decent reason why the carry-over register cannot be used for the boundary review in 2015?
Chris Ruane
I will come on to that point when I conclude my speech, but I share my hon. Friend’s concern.
There was a lack of co-operation at the start of this process. The Government were sure that they were absolutely right and that the independent Electoral Commission’s figures were nonsense. They initially dismissed the concerns of civic society, including Unlock Democracy, the Electoral Reform Society and Age Concern.
We can compare the Government’s approach with Labour’s attitude on the constitutional changes that we made during our 13 years in government. People may say that we did not do enough to get those who were unregistered back on the register. I would agree with them entirely, because I was knocking on Ministers’ doors—and Prime Ministers’ doors—to say that there was a problem, but it was not properly addressed. However, Labour cannot be accused of using those changes for party political advantage.
Jonathan Edwards
Given that the hon. Gentleman raises that point, I refer him to the Government of Wales Act 2006, because there was not much cross-party support for the reforms that were led by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain).
Chris Ruane
Let me set out a list of the constitutional changes that Labour implemented and the way in which we approached them. We changed the position in 2001 so that if someone did not put their name down for two years on the trot, they were taken off the register. That was the cause of the first big drop. Some 1 million to 2 million people came off the register as a result of the Labour Government’s action, and they were our voters. I thought it was daft, but we did it, even though it went against us.
In Scotland, a consensus was in place five years prior to devolution, meaning that everything had been squared with all sections of society. We introduced proportional representation for European elections when we did not need to, and we went from four Labour MEPs in Wales down to one.
Chris Ruane
Politically, they were all mistakes, but constitutionally it may have been the right thing to do.
When PR for local government was introduced in Scotland, Labour lost its natural base. Had we not introduced the change, we could have been in control of local government in Scotland. We also introduced devolution for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In 1997, we had a huge majority of 180, so we could have railroaded those proposals through and used first past the post for the devolved Administrations, but instead we used proportional representation. All Labour’s constitutional changes were neither party political nor politicised, and that is the big difference compared with this Government’s constitutional changes. The Deputy Prime Minister said that his proposals were the biggest constitutional change since 1832, and House of Lords reform is probably the biggest constitutional change since Magna Carta or 1066, but they are all being rushed through for party political advantage. A Government who use party political advantage on constitutional measures set a dangerous precedent because the party that comes in after them might do exactly the same thing, so it becomes a zero-sum game. Such measures should be taken forward with party political consensus.
I give some credit to the Government—this is the nice part of my speech, although there will be a sting in the tail—because, despite their initial position of intransigence, their Ministers then listened. That was only because the Opposition’s excellent Front-Bench team took the issues out to wider society, such as the Electoral Reform Society, Unlock Democracy and Age Concern. Those organisations held meetings in the House of Commons, took evidence and contacted the Government. The Electoral Commission, the independent monitoring voice, had massive concerns about the proposals. I also pay tribute to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee under its excellent Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), which took evidence and produced a consensual report containing strong recommendations. Our Front-Bench team has shown strong leadership throughout the process.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion mentioned Denbighshire county council, and while I am giving out plaudits, I pay tribute to the council and its electoral registration officer, Gareth Evans, for increasing elector registrations in Vale of Clwyd from 47,000 to 57,000 over five years. I pay tribute also to the leadership of the chief executive, Mohammed Mehmet, who was the one who issued the letters to the non-responders, saying that if they did not fill in their electoral registration form, he would turn them over to the county council’s solicitors and they would be fined £1,000. That had a big impact and increased registration. Even in the Rhyl West ward, one of the poorest wards in the whole country, with 900 houses in multiple occupation, registration increased from 2,500 to 3,500 electors.
Now for the sting in the tail. I am pleased with the concessions made so far, but there are two outstanding concessions that we want. If the Minister were to say that he was prepared to listen to us on this, we may not vote against Third Reading. The first concession that we seek is on the next boundary date—2015. There needs to be a carry-over from the old register to the new register. The second is a carry-over for postal ballots. There can be no reason whatever for not accepting this, except party political advantage. I warn the Liberal Democrat part of the coalition to be very wary. The advantage will be for the Conservatives, and it will come up and bite the Liberal Democrats from behind in the inner cities, where they have some presence, and in the south-west, if they do not sort the issue out.
The House of Lords Reform Bill was printed today. It states that the freeze date for that election will be December 2011, so there will still be 6 million people missing from the register. Remember, those who are elected—the new Lords or senators or whatever they are—will be elected for a 15-year period, so if those 6 million people cannot participate in the first vote, they will have to wait about 18 years before they can have any influence on who represents them in the other place.
Mr Kevan Jones
On electoral registration and issues to do with election, there has always been a degree of consensus in the House, which has ensured that it is not a political issue and that there is cross-party support for any changes that are introduced. But on the Bill and the boundary changes, we have seen a politicisation of the arguments.
We do not have to look very far to see where that came from. Individuals in the Conservative party were determined to use this Bill and the Parliamentary Voting Systems and Constituencies Bill to gain political advantage. They learned that from the United States, where the American Legislative Exchange Council has been trumpeting these changes, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) said, have made it more difficult for other people to register to vote or actually to vote in elections. That is exactly where the policy came from. What was the connection? The Atlantic Bridge, of which senior members of the Government were members, was supported and paid for by that organisation, which is sponsored mainly by wealthy right-wing neo-cons in the United States.
Has the Bill been improved? Yes, it has, because of the outrage that has been generated. I do not include in what I have just said the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). He is increasingly becoming the Minister for dealing with sticky sticks. He is obviously going to—
Mr Jones
I certainly did. I am far too polite to suggest anything other of the Minister. He is a fine gentleman. He dealt with the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, he has had this Bill to deal with and he has Lords reform to deal with. I look forward to the long debates that we will have on that. Overall, the hon. Gentleman has tried to do the right thing.
Has the Bill been improved, or have the most radical and extreme parts of it been expunged through the process of pre-legislative scrutiny and Committee? Yes. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd, I pay tribute to the Select Committee for the work that it has done, to the various outside bodies, such as Unlock Democracy and the Electoral Reform Society, and to the Electoral Commission, which focused on the fact that if the Bill had remained in its original format it could have changed democracy in this country. The idea of being able to opt out of the register was clearly designed to make things harder and push down the register in certain areas. Just by chance they are the inner-city seats that are mainly represented by the Labour party.
Chris Ruane
My hon. Friend refers to the fact that if the Bill had gone through in its original form it would have damaged democracy. Does he agree that we could have been looking at a British coup?
Mr Jones
Yes, and that is what is sad about what the Bill has done. When any legislation to do with elections or boundaries came before the House it was always consensual. This has been highly political, as the opt-out clearly was.
The Liberal Democrats’ position is very strange. As I said the other day, it is the first time I have seen turkeys voting for Christmas. They are doing it yet again on this Bill. They think that they will get some advantage out of it, but I just do not see that at all.
I am still concerned about how the Government will deal with the penalty. If it is a derisory amount, will it be effective? I do not think that it will be. I wait for the Government to come forward with that. The measures were clearly designed to hamper registration and make it difficult for people to register to vote. As democrats, we should be encouraging people not only to vote, but also to get on the electoral register. As I said on Monday, the important thing is not only to get people on the register, but for it to be accurate.
A lot of things have changed since the last general election when the Liberal Democrats were in opposition, but I want to read what the then Liberal Democrat Member for Cambridge, David Howarth, said in the House on 13 July 2009. He said:
“The validity and credibility of democratic elections depend both on the register being comprehensive and on its having a great deal of integrity. If the register is not comprehensive, it is not the electorate who are making a choice but some subset of the electorate. If it is not secure and we cannot be sure that the people whose votes are being counted are electors, that people are not voting more than once or that there is not fraud going on, equally there is a threat to democratic credibility…I do not think that anybody”—
[Interruption.] If the Minister is patient, I am coming on to the issue around changing the date in terms of using the register for the 2015 boundaries.
David Howarth went on to say:
“I do not think that anybody was suggesting that the timetable be artificially shortened, or that any risk be taken with the comprehensiveness of the register.”—[Official Report, 13 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 111-2.]
But that is exactly what the Government are doing and that is exactly the situation we will face if the carry-over is used for the 2015 boundaries. The Conservatives know exactly what they are doing. They know that the register will be depleted and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) said earlier, if the money assigned for electoral registration is not ring-fenced, in certain parts of the country no real effort will be put into ensuring that the register is as complete as possible, no matter how much guidance and encouragement is given nationally to local councils, and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd gave an example the other day relating to the leader of Islington council.
I also have great fears about the data matching. I think that it is a good idea to rely not just on the annual canvass, but to use other methods as well. Durham county council has pioneered that and my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly raised another good example. But if local councils are faced with budget cuts and they can get out of doing the annual canvass, they will, which will deplete the register even further. I think that the annual canvass will be more important in the early stages of individual registration than it is today. The only way to get to hard-to-reach communities practically will be through individual canvasses of those electorates, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly said earlier and as the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) said excellently yesterday when speaking to his amendment, particularly in relation to disabled people and those who have difficulty either accessing the registration forms or filling them in. Therefore, I fear that there are things in the Bill that will be used by certain people to ensure not only that it is harder to get on the register, but that there are disincentives for doing so.
The most scandalous thing in the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly has already said, is the carry-over relating to the 2015 boundary changes. It will be interesting to see what the Government do if there is a big drop, which is clearly possible. Clearly such a drop will not be in the more affluent areas represented mainly by the Conservative party. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), said, it will be in the inner-city London constituencies such as his and others where the register will drop substantially. That will then affect the figures that will be used to draw up the new boundaries. They will therefore be artificial and will not truly reflect the electorates.
We should be encouraging people to get on the electoral register, but what the Government are aiming for here—we know why the Conservatives are doing it—is to ensure that those people are not taken into account when the new boundaries are drawn up. I will give an example from the present redrawing of the boundaries. Durham county council, when it came into being, took responsibility for electoral registration; before it was a unitary council, seven district councils were responsible. Registration was patchy in different parts and the councils all did it in different ways. I described the other day how in some areas, such as Derwentside, it was obvious to see that there were mistakes in the register but the council made no effort to address the gaps. When the county council took responsibility, it made a real effort to ensure that the register was as accurate as possible. It put over 12,000 missing electors on the register, and that had an impact on the boundary commission’s deliberations for the recommendations in the latest redrawing of boundaries. In the city of Durham, for example, a lot of students were not on the register, but they were put on and that had an effect, so there is clearly going to be an effect if we do not have such a carry-over. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee was very clear about that, and its Chair said:
“There are real risks in moving to a new system, not least that people with the right to vote could fall off the electoral roll in large numbers. This would be damaging to democracy, to public engagement in politics, and to the fairness of the basis on which MPs are elected.”
That is fundamental, and if we read the report we find that, even though the Committee has a Labour Chair, those sentiments are shared across the political spectrum.
Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg of the University of Liverpool said in evidence on 8 September 2011:
“If we do see a large number of people drop off the registers, even if in all likelihood they are not going to vote, that will have a profound implication for the redrawing of boundaries under the new rules that have just gone through.”
My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly asked, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd did earlier, I think, whether the Government have provided a good explanation for introducing the measure. No, they have not.
My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly said that, in the previous Parliament when we introduced individual registration, there was consensus on the timetable, and it is more important to get the measure right and to make the register comprehensive than it is to do what the Conservative party in the coalition is doing, which is to make it more difficult to create an accurate register, meaning that the boundaries will be affected when they are redrawn.
The other strange thing that I cannot understand is why those who have postal and proxy votes will not be carried over, either. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly referred to his 86-year-old mother, and her situation will be replicated throughout the country by disabled people and people who have had postal votes for many years, as they will think that, because they have one, it will continue on and on. It will not. If we do not engage with those individuals, we will find that large numbers of a very vulnerable section of society, are disfranchised. My hon. Friend said that MIND and other pressure groups dealing with that section of society have argued against the measure, but the Government seem to be ignoring them, and in Committee of the whole House I did not hear any explanation for it.
Major changes have been made to the Bill, and it is better than the one we started with, but it still has within it that bit of poison, which the Conservatives will use in their attempt to gerrymander the next boundary review, and that is why I will not support it on Third Reading.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
On behalf of members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, who have taken part in various stages of the debate, I acknowledge the thanks that have been given to the Committee for the job that we have done. It is a good example of how to deal with legislation, and I hope that there will be many more such opportunities.
I am not sure that we will offer ourselves up for the next piece of constitutional legislation, however, because that might delay it even further, and if we spent several months on it, as we could, it would definitely be kicked into the long grass. Therefore, I can see why the Government may not be so keen to send it to the Committee, but in general such scrutiny is important, because it gives people the opportunity, in a much less stressed and antagonistic atmosphere, to go through the difficult bits of legislation and to get people in to explain what really would not work. We should do more of that.
As with many of these things, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If not enough resources are put into the effort to carry out individual voter registration, it will be extremely difficult. We know how different various parts of the country are. We even know how different various parts of a city or a constituency are. In some parts of my constituency, one can go down a road of bungalows or other houses and find that virtually every household is registered; the only one that might not be is where somebody has only just moved in. In other places, it is almost frightening how few people are registered. In some cases, the household has been registered in the past but those people have moved away and the next lot of tenants have moved in.
There is no doubt that getting people registered is very challenging, especially if local authorities do not put the effort and resources into it because they themselves are not properly resourced. I see the benefit of ring-fencing in that respect. In a debate earlier today, I spoke about council tax and council tax benefit. Ring-fencing is not a bad thing—it can be very useful, and this might be an occasion when it would be. The differential resources and the different sorts of efforts that will be needed to keep registration up will be a crucial factor. It is important to give people the chance to vote. We have all encountered people on election day who suddenly discover that they cannot vote because they are not registered, although they wanted to do so and had been listening to all the coverage. We might say, “Ah, well, if people haven’t registered they probably won’t vote anyway, so it doesn’t matter”, but it does matter.
Registration is important in terms of changes to the size of constituencies as part of the difficult process of boundary changes. People will understand that there is a worry, particularly with differential registration, that the next round of boundary changes will be affected. I still hope that the Government will be prepared, even at this late stage, to reconsider the Select Committee’s recommendation on the next set of boundary changes.
Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Business without Debate
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Coryton Oil Refinery
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
That the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Notification Requirements) (England and Wales) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 5 March 2012, in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.
The House divided: - Ayes: 478 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly agreed to.
That the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Remedial) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 March 2012, in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.
The House divided: - Ayes: 290 / Noes: 197 - Question accordingly agreed to.
That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 10834/12, relating to the Commission Communication: Action for stability, growth and jobs, No. 10557/12 and Addendum, relating to the draft Council Recommendation on the United Kingdom’s 2012 national reform programme and delivering a Council opinion on the United Kingdom’s convergence programme for 2012-2017, and No. 10846/12, relating to a Commission Staff Working Document: In depth review for the United Kingdom in accordance with Article 5 of Regulation (EU) No. 1176/2011 on the prevention and correction of macroeconomic imbalances; welcomes the Commission’s support for the Government’s efforts to reduce the deficit and set the public finances on a sustainable path, which is consistent with the conclusions reached by the IMF and the OECD in their recent reviews of the UK economy; takes note of the Commission’s efforts to address timing difficulties with the European Semester; welcomes the Government’s approach to promoting growth domestically and at EU level; and welcomes the Government’s policy of securing assurances that the UK cannot be subject to sanctions in respect to the Stability and Growth Pact or the new Macroeconomic Imbalances Procedure.
The House divided: - Ayes: 285 / Noes: 203 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to express the grave concern that surrounds yesterday’s announcement that the Coryton oil refinery in my constituency will close. When the company was placed into administration five months ago, many of us believed that, because of its profitability and its productivity, it would not be long before it found new owners. So, five months later, and with no buyer coming forward to operate the site as a refinery, I have to say that this is a very sad day. I had hoped that this debate would never have to take place.
The intention of my debate before the announcement was to lay out the fact that this was not just another business in administration. I would have explained to the House and the Minister the importance—strategically, economically, socially and historically—of the Coryton oil refinery. Before I proceed, I want to place on record my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has been working so hard over the last five months to keep the refinery operating.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
I associate myself with those comments and pay my own personal tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), who has worked tirelessly behind the scenes to bring all the interested parties together. He has done so with dedication to achieving the outcome rather than to generating column inches, which has been the characteristic of some Opposition Members. Does he agree that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who will reply from the Dispatch Box today, has also been absolutely sincere in his commitment to achieve a positive outcome for the refinery?
Stephen Metcalfe
I thank my hon. Friend for her comments. Yes, I would like to thank the Minister personally for his help and support. I would also like to thank Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and from the Treasury for what they have done to help me work with all those involved to find a solution.
Stephen Metcalfe
I am afraid that time is limited; I am sorry, but no.
The people I want to thank the most are the staff, the management—particularly Jon Barden and Georgina Clarke—and, of course, the unions. Without their commitment, the business might well have closed months ago. Instead, it had time to search for a buyer and to explore a range of options that might have led to the securing of its long-term future.
The refinery has changed ownership many times over the years, most recently in 2007, when it was acquired by a Swiss company, Petroplus, and became one of a group of five refineries. Unfortunately, in January this year the parent company—Petroplus—got into financial difficulties and filed for bankruptcy, at which point Coryton placed itself in administration with PricewaterhouseCoopers. Of the five refineries, Coryton is far the most complex. It has a Nelson complexity index of 12, making it one of the most sophisticated refineries in Europe. It is very profitable, and I believe that, because of its complexity and its location, it is also of great strategic importance, not least because it provides 20% of the fuel in the south-east and 10% of that in the United Kingdom. However, because of the structuring of the parent company, when Coryton went into administration it had no fuel assets and nothing in its bank accounts, although it did have £2 billion of debt held in bonds that the parent company had issued.
Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)
Must it not be utterly dismaying for the work force of 900 people in what was a very successful and profitable refinery to find that that they are losing their jobs, although the parent company was able to go on leveraging debt against that successful refinery?
Stephen Metcalfe
Yes. When the company went into administration, finding that all the debt was leveraged against that one refinery must have come as a shock to all concerned. That just shows the mismanagement of the parent company in Switzerland.
Once appointed, the administrators stabilised the situation and began looking for a long-term solution. Two options soon emerged, although I am sure that many others were investigated: sale to a third party and financial restructuring. The financial restructuring process began very well, but it became obvious fairly quickly that there was a large funding gap and it would not be workable. As for the sale side, PWC invited expressions of interest and numerous possibilities emerged, from lift and shift to sale as a refinery and, finally, sale as a fuel terminal, which would give a fuel company greater access to the Thames and therefore to the south-east. The site has always been considered particularly attractive owing to its close proximity to London and its deep water jetty, but ironically those factors are now to be the refinery’s downfall.
I understand that following examination of the offers, a Russian consortium was identified as having presented the most favourable bid. It wanted to operate Coryton as a refinery, thus saving the 900 to 2,000 jobs that it supports. The next best bid came from a bidder that wanted to operate the site as a terminal. In the light of yesterday’s announcement, many have expressed surprise that no one wanted to buy the site as a refinery. Although I do not possess all the details, I do not believe that that is the case. What I do believe is that a number of credible, sustainable bids were presented, but that none of them ultimately exceeded the bid for an alternative use. I shall say more about that later.
Last month, despite all that hard work, the administrators, PWC, made the announcement—which I think we had all prayed we would never hear—that no credible offer was on the table and no one was willing to operate the refinery, and that therefore it was proceeding towards closure. As I have said, I believe that there were credible offers on the table, but that they were not high enough. Yesterday, PWC struck a final blow and announced that it had done a deal with Shell to operate the site as a terminal. The timing of that announcement—before tonight’s debate—made redundant much of the case that I wanted to build to save the refinery, but I ask the House to bear with me none the less.
As Members can imagine, following that announcement the situation has been very fluid over the last 24 hours. The one thing that has been constant is the contact that I have received from numerous parties expressing deep concern about the way in which the administration has been conducted. They talk of great secrecy surrounding the sale; they say that alternative outcomes could have been explored but were not, and that barriers were put up.
Following yesterday’s announcement, I have a better understanding of the events that led up to it, and I think it important to examine those events. My current understanding is that the Russian-led team bid the highest amount, and that the bid was proceeding well until something happened. I have no idea what that something was. I have a number of notions, but I cannot confirm any of them. Whatever happened, however, the upshot—so I am told—was that that information was not communicated properly by the administrators to the buyers. I have to say I find that extraordinary—although in light of my own experiences, not surprising. I still have not been officially informed by PWC that a deal has been done. Although I have attended every stakeholder meeting, I found out yesterday, when the press contacted me—although I did subsequently have an e-mail from one of the partners, Vopak.
Jackie Doyle-Price
Naturally, as we have reached the endgame, there is lots of rumour and speculation, and certainly the Russian bid has been trying to get its case across since discovering it has not won. Is there not the following alternative theory, however: far from this having been in the hands of the administrators, a view was taken that perhaps the company in question was not good for the money and was looking for an opportunity to drop the price? Shell is part of the winning consortium, and given that Shell Haven has been closed, and given, too, the supremacy of this location—as my hon. Friend described—would not Shell have gone for any price?
Stephen Metcalfe
It is difficult for me to speculate about what might, or might not, have happened and what discussions might have taken place, but I will say that more than one company has been in touch with me.
I find it extraordinary that the administrators, charged with getting the best deal for the bond holders—to whom, after all, they are responsible—did not inform the company with the largest bid at the time that there was some problem or the situation had changed. Perhaps if things had been different and if communications had not broken down, we might have been in a different position. I do not know what happened, but the upshot was that the bid was dropped. I believe that at that point trust broke down between the administrators and the Russian consortium wishing to buy the refinery. For the record, I have been aware for some time that both parties in this main bid were represented by PWC and while I make no comment about the existence of a Chinese wall I would be very interested to hear how both sides view the behaviour of the other, bearing in mind they were both from the same firm.
As I said many times in the run-up to yesterday’s announcement, there has always been another bidder. I am concerned that it might not have been given a fair crack of the whip. I do not know whether that is true. This is a complex situation and I do not pretend to have the expertise required to pick through the detail and assess the quality of the arguments, from both sides, about what happened.
Rebecca Harris
Is it not crucial that we get to the bottom of this for the sake of all the people who will be losing their jobs, as well as other people in the supply chain? We need to know what went on, and that everything possible was done.
Stephen Metcalfe
I entirely agree. There could have been a different outcome if there had been more openness and transparency on all sides. I do not attribute fault to anyone, but these events need to be looked at. That different outcome could have been more beneficial to the bond holders, but my primary concern is, and will continue to be, for the work force who will pay the price for this breakdown in communications.
For those unfamiliar with the refinery, I want to put it in historical context and explain its local importance. South Essex has a long and proud industrial heritage. At one time there were three refineries along the Thames. After PWC’s announcement, there will be none. When we talk about this refinery closing, we are not talking about just another business that got into trouble and failed to meet the challenges of the modern world. On the contrary, it was a very profitable business. It met the modern challenges. It was part of our collective DNA in south Essex. It was part of the very fabric of society there; people moved to work there. If it goes, the economic blow will have the biggest impact, however.
Ian Lavery
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I have experienced exactly the same situation in my constituency, and he is right in what he is saying about jobs. Thurrock council carried out an impact assessment study which showed that more than £100 million would be lost as a consequence of the closure of the refinery. Why did the Government not even ask the European Union whether state aid was available to save these jobs?
Stephen Metcalfe
Those discussions have been taking place behind closed doors and in private. I am sure that the Minister will tell us in his response what the reasons were and what avenues were explored. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that Thurrock council’s economic impact assessment, conducted by DTZ, estimated the impact to be closer to £1 billion. That represents a potential contraction in economic activity of 0.07% of the national economy, which is getting close to a third of the contraction we experienced in the past quarter. One of my arguments has always been: are we really willing to let that go without exploring every avenue? That is one of the questions I have asked in private, and I am hoping that we will hear it answered by the Minister in public this evening.
As the House will be aware, that call for state aid, including from me, has been growing over the past few weeks. I have raised the issue on the Floor of the House and, as I say, in private. I have asked that Ministers examine every conceivable angle, and check and double-check that there is no way they can help within the boundaries of what is possible.
We have to remember that the refinery spends tens of millions a year in the UK on maintenance, chemicals, utilities and business rates. Every three to four years it has a maintenance project, which results in approximately £150 million being spent in the UK, and that was due to take place this autumn. The impact of this closure will be felt across the whole country, but the hardest hit of course will be those in the local area. The economic cost will be great. In employment terms alone, the closure of Coryton will affect 800 families directly through the loss of employment, leaving aside those who work for suppliers. That is 800 families who will now have a more difficult time feeding their families—putting food on the table. To add salt to the wound, if the planned turnaround project had gone ahead this autumn, the number employed there may well have risen to more than 2,000. It is hard to underestimate what a blow this is; we are exporting manufacturing jobs and replacing them with service jobs, and nothing like in the same numbers.
I had also hoped, despite the work the Department has undertaken on developing a refining strategy, to persuade the Minister to look again at the issue of diesel capacity; I had hoped that he might move on that just a little. As he will be aware, I and the Government are being accused of not doing enough to support this business—not doing as much as was done for the banks—so all I can do now is to seek publicly answers to questions that I have put privately for months. I realise that the Government were highly unlikely to be in a position to purchase the business, but I wanted to look for a more imaginative solution where they support the business on a commercial basis or through some form of loan guarantee.
In light of the above, I wish to put a number of questions to the Minister. First, will he confirm that he and colleagues from across the Government looked at every conceivable angle on providing some form of financial assistance for this business so that it could be kept open? Will he tell the House whether he or any of his colleagues received a formal, structured and specific request for state assistance from the administrators, or were discussions just of a vague nature, along the lines of, “It might be helpful if some money was put across”? Can he reassure the House that the full level of economic impact was taken into account when they were deciding whether financial intervention was possible? By far the biggest impact will be on jobs, so what steps are the Minister and colleagues across the Government taking to support those who are losing their jobs, and when will that support be available?
Finally, in the light of the information that has been handed to me in recent weeks, of what I have said this evening and of the concern that has been expressed about the process, the way in which it has been handled and the fact that the refinery is of such significance, will the Minister support my call for a parliamentary inquiry into the process, if for no other reason than to ensure that everyone, from the work force and the bond holders to each and every stakeholder, has been treated fairly by this process?
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his hard work. He knows he has had our support in his endeavours. Given the valid concerns he has raised, can he explain where the downside is of having a parliamentary inquiry?
Stephen Metcalfe
Having considered it, I cannot see a downside. It would reassure people that the process had been transparent, open and conducted in a way that fulfilled all the legal requirements and that there were no other options.
I do not want to give false hope, but I do want to give the assurances that there could have been no other possible outcome from the one announced yesterday. This is a sad day for the UK refining industry, a sad day for south Essex and a sad day for all those who have worked in and been connected with the refinery in the past. Above all, it is a very sad day for the hundreds of people who are currently working at the refinery and who after yesterday’s announcement will no longer have a safe and secure job and will be looking for new employment. I ask the Minister to do whatever he can to address the points I have raised.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) for securing the debate and for the way in which he has introduced it. Throughout these months, he has been assiduous in raising concerns with me and my fellow Ministers about the situation. He has pursued every opportunity to engage and to advocate the outcome that he and I would have wished, and he could not have been more diligent in representing his constituents. I also thank him for the way in which he has done that. There are some who believe that the best way of doing such things is in a blaze of media attention, but although that might sometimes secure a short-term political benefit it makes complex legal and economic discussions much more complicated. I absolutely welcome his approach, which has been quiet, persistent, focused and diligent, even if it has not delivered the outcome that he and I would have wished.
I am grateful, too, to my right hon. Friends the Members for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), for Southend West (Mr Amess), for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) and for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), as well as to my hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), who takes a great interest in such matters. Although his constituency is on the other side of the country, he has a significant refinery of his own in his constituency to look after.
This has been an extremely difficult period and we are all profoundly disappointed, especially for those who have been working so diligently at the refinery, that the administrator has not been able to find somebody who would continue refining at Coryton. The inevitable job losses were something that we all hoped could be avoided, but this has been an extraordinary example of a community pulling together. It is a tribute to the management of the plant, the trade unions and the local community, as led by the local councillors and Members of Parliament. They could not have presented a more seamless and supportive case to the administrator in their work.
I want to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock that the Government are doing everything we can to ensure that the skilled people who have been working at Coryton find jobs and new posts. We are working with the Thurrock council taskforce, local agencies and Jobcentre Plus to ensure that they get the support they need at this difficult time.
We must consider some of the background. Petroplus went into administration in January and since then the administrators have been working tirelessly to find a buyer for the refinery. They put in place an innovative tolling agreement with Morgan Stanley, who agreed to supply crude oil to the refinery so that it could continue operating while a buyer was found. That was a similar arrangement to the one the French Government and Shell put in place at the Petit Couronne refinery in France.
The tolling agreement was extended until the end of May but ended on 28 May. At that point, as no similar arrangement could be negotiated to take it forward, the administrators had to take the difficult decision to start shutting down the refinery. Coryton has now ceased commercial refining and is in the process of being shut down. The first wave of redundancies is happening this week and our thoughts are with those people who are affected. The administrators have offered explicit guarantees that all workers made redundant will receive their statutory redundancy entitlements and we will do all we can to ensure that they are processed as quickly as possible.
Over the past five months, the administrators have worked exceptionally hard to find a buyer. We in Government have done everything we could to support them in this task. We worked with the administrators early on to look at options for the refinery’s future, we convened a number of stakeholder meetings to ensure that everyone involved was aware of what was happening and UK Trade and Investment was involved in looking for potential investors. My hon. Friend raised particular issues about engagement with Fund Energy. I have been reassured today by the administrators and by representatives of Fund Energy that they have met on a continual basis throughout this process. They said that they continued to do so right up until the final decision was made. I believe, from the assurances I have had from the administrators, that they have complied with their statutory duties.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Clearly, I share the concerns of all those affected by these matters, but the Minister is well aware that Coryton is not unique. In fact, I think it is a microcosm of the UK refining industry at the moment. There is not a single refinery in the country that is making money, and many are losing large sums. That is bound to get worse when EU emission requirements come into play later. The future of Coryton seems to be as a storage facility probably from a subsea pipeline bringing petrol in from Rotterdam. Are the Minister and the Government worried about what that implies for the security of our supplies in future?
Charles Hendry
I will respond specifically to the hon. Gentleman’s point, which goes to the heart of the situation we face.
First, the UK faces extremely tough competition from other refineries in Europe and, increasingly, Asia. It is well known that there is overcapacity in the refinery sector in the UK and right across Europe. Eight European refineries have closed since 2009 and more closures are likely to happen in future. The International Energy Agency has reported that since 2008-09, more than 3 million barrels of oil per day of crude distillation capacity has closed and more is at risk. At the same time, significant refinery expansions are taking place in Asia in particular, outpacing expected demand growth. All this means that, as the hon. Gentleman said, profit margins are low for refineries in the UK.
Secondly, the UK’s refineries produce broadly the right amount of fuel to meet demand in the UK but not the right type. Put simply, we produce more petrol than we consume and we use much more diesel than we produce. Since 2000, demand for petrol in the UK has decreased by 35%—more than a third—while demand for diesel has increased by 34%. These are evidently sustained trends and not a short-term blip. Overall, there has been a 9% decrease in the demand for fuel in the last decade due to economic conditions and better fuel economy from new cars. We have now put in place work to develop a refining strategy. That should have happened long ago, right the way back in the previous Administration when there was a 34% drop in demand for petrol. This was an entirely evident trend and it is a great shame that that work was not started before now so that we could have had a more structured approach.
Thirdly, significant levels of capital investment were needed in the Coryton refinery to maintain refinery operations. These included the cost of the three-yearly turnaround—about £150 million—and any expenditure on adaptation to rebalance output between petrol and diesel products, which would have cost in the order of hundreds of millions of pounds. These evidently posed a massive barrier to potential new owners. In addition, the Coryton site is of exceptional value as an import terminal because of its location and amenities, with one of the biggest jetties anywhere, so it is not surprising that it has a higher sale value as an import terminal, which does not require the extra investment a refinery would need. It is clear that the market is very tough, and these conditions made the sale of Coryton as a refinery challenging.
I want to reassure the House, and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock, that the Government considered very carefully whether financial assistance could be provided. There were extensive discussions between my Department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury. Right across Government, all Departments that it was appropriate to involve were involved. Like my hon. Friend, the Government would have wished for a different outcome, but we did not believe it was right to put public money into a refinery.
Charles Hendry
Forgive me; this is a half-hour debate and there is not time to take further interventions.
As I mentioned, there is existing overcapacity in the refining industry in the UK and Europe, and the declining demand for petrol means that it would not have been sustainable to put public money into the refinery. It would not have been a long-term solution, as simply funding the gap between a bid for an import terminal and a bid for the refinery would not have guaranteed the refinery’s long-term commercial success. It was clear that significant investment would have been needed over time to keep the refinery open. I was reassured by the Government’s work with fuel suppliers that Coryton’s closure would not have an impact on the security of supply of fuel to London and the south-east, because many other supply points and operational refineries could be used.
To respond to the specific question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock, the administrators made a formal request on 15 May for the provision of Government assistance for one option of a number that they were considering. Such negotiations are inevitably controversial, but only one option on the table at the time required such assistance. The consideration of the case for financial assistance involved a range of issues, including the impact on security of supply, on energy resilience and on jobs in the local community. On each of those grounds, we concluded that there was not a sufficiently compelling case to intervene. Given that that was so clear, there was no case for seeking approval from the Commission, because that simply would not have been considered. While we accept that it is extremely sad that the refinery will close, I hope that there is some comfort from the investment for the new facility as an import terminal.
My hon. Friend asked whether there should be a parliamentary inquiry, but that is a matter for the relevant Select Committee. Given the work that we are doing on developing a long-term strategic approach, I would welcome an investigation that would take that approach into account, and we would work closely with the Committee. However, it would be unlikely that such an inquiry would be completed in a time scale that would mean that it would make any difference to the situation at Coryton.
In view of my hon. Friend’s comments, I shall write to PricewaterhouseCoopers in the morning to ask it to respond formally to each and every point that he made, and to seek the assurances that it should give him about the process. We have found it to be professional and thorough, and it is only right that he and his constituents have answers to every question.
We are now moving forward with Thurrock and taking a lead on the taskforce. Through the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, we will do everything possible to bring new jobs and prosperity to the area. My hon. Friend has fought a diligent battle, and I am profoundly saddened—
Petition
Rural Transport (Brafferton, Darlington)
Westminster Hall
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Council Tax Benefit Localisation
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
It is a pleasure, Mr Howarth, to have this debate under your chairmanship. I requested it because of my concern about not only the impact of council tax localisation and the 10% cut in subsidy to already hard-pressed local authorities such as mine in Wigan, but the cumulative effect of the welfare benefit changes disproportionately impacting on people in low-paid work. Council tax benefit is widely claimed; some 5.9 million low-income families claim it, more than claim any other means-tested benefit or tax credit in the United Kingdom. It is a crucial benefit for people in work who are struggling to pay rising bills for food and fuel, and contributes hugely to making low-paid work pay.
A consultation paper published in August 2011 made it clear that although no detailed regulations had been published—they have not been published even today—current claimants of pension age will see no reduction in support and that their entitlement will continue to be protected by national rules. Will the Minister say whether any more categories of claimant are likely to be protected by statute? In Wigan in 2010-11, there were 34,000 claimants, and the Department for Work and Pensions paid a grant of £26 million. On current expenditure, a 10% cut would obviously lead to a £2.6 million shortfall, on top of swingeing cuts of more than £66 million already being made to Wigan council’s funding from central Government.
Another issue to be considered in Wigan is the number of pensioners claiming council tax benefit. More than 40% of people of pension age are claiming it, so the burden on those of working age becomes disproportionately higher with a potential 20% reduction across all working-age customers, and that is before the protection provided to any other groups that the authority might wish to protect—carers, for example.
It is worth reminding hon. Members that council tax is one of the few debts for which the final penalty is imprisonment. Even with council tax frozen and no cuts in council tax benefit, the number of people seeking help from the debt charity, Consumer Credit Counselling Service, because of council tax arrears rose by more than a quarter in 2011. The cost, both human and financial, of collecting more money from people who are already at their wits’ end and struggling to pay their bills must be factored in by local authorities. My council has identified that collection will be difficult and involve a high level of direct contact. In effect, it is saying that it could cost more to collect than the amount collected.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing such an important debate. She echoes many of the points that have been made by my local authority, Trafford council—particularly about the cost of collecting council tax and management of the benefit. It has pointed out that as housing benefit moves to universal credit, the current team that processes both benefits in the local authority will not be able to shrink by the same sort of proportion as the value of council tax benefit will, so it will become extremely inefficient. Some 80% of current benefit staff will have to be retained, but only for a rump of processing. Does that make cost-effective sense for councils?
Yvonne Fovargue
No, it is not cost-effective, and another factor is that council tax benefit offences are imprisonable. Does it do anyone any good to put people into prison for a short time for a very small debt?
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I welcome this debate. Has my hon. Friend seen the announcement by the Institute for Fiscal Studies on this very point? It said:
“The poll tax experience showed how difficult it can be to collect small amounts of tax from low-income households that are not used to paying it.”
Is that not the scenario that we are getting back into?
Yvonne Fovargue
My right hon. Friend must have read my notes, because I am coming to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. It warned that limiting spending will give councils an incentive to discourage low-income families from living in the area. As in the past, they will be left to chase desperately poor people through the courts for small amounts of unpaid tax. During the 1990s, I worked in an advice agency; I can honestly say that I do not want a repeat of the poll tax debacle. That policy, like the current one, involved the poorest people paying the most in the most deprived boroughs.
When I look at the options being considered by Wigan council, I despair. Wigan has an excellent council with an enviable track record of working with employers, and a very active local chamber of commerce that provides new employment opportunities and supports existing businesses. However, given the difficult economic climate, and despite active promotion of employment and growth, Morrisons recently announced the closure of Rathbones bakery, with 160 job losses. Any closure or relocation of a major employer places an increased burden on already hard-pressed councils, and insisting that they collect a small amount of council tax from people adds to that burden and puts them in an impossible position.
The issue is compounded by the fact that the grant is predicated on the amount of benefit in the previous year, so any large influx of people into the council tax benefit system will have a destabilising effect on the council’s budget. Indeed, there may be a perverse incentive to encourage such people to leave the borough—a return to the poll tax scenario.
Wigan and similar local authorities have stark choices. They could abolish backdating for working-age customers, but savings would be minimal. They could abolish the second adult rebate, but the savings would also be minimal. They could establish a weekly minimum payment of £1 upwards, but again the savings would be minimal. They could change the capital disregards on a sliding scale, penalising people who save, but, once more, the savings would be minimal. They could disregard income from child benefit, maintenance payments and disability benefits, but that would hit the most vulnerable the hardest and could be open to challenge on grounds of discrimination.
Such a move would certainly save money, albeit with the greatest cost falling on the most vulnerable. Awards could be capped at a percentage of liability, which could deliver savings, but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said, given the huge increase in the number of council tax bills, collection would be very difficult because some people would be paying council tax for the first time. That would lead to an increase in collection costs. Again, there are echoes of the poll tax.
The new scheme would have to be in place by January 2013 with the IT changes completed and ready to go online. Is the Minister confident that the IT systems will be in place in time for an introduction in 2013? My local authority certainly has worries about that. It wants to know how progress of the IT systems will be monitored, and how they will be supported in their introduction.
Another issue that localisation of council tax benefit raises is its relationship, or not, with the universal credit. The credit is supposed to simplify the benefits system, reducing the number of different benefits and means tests. Keeping council tax support separate and allowing it to vary throughout the country surely undermines that simplification. Universal credit was supposed to rationalise work incentives by replacing the jumble of overlapping benefits with one single means test. That may vary throughout the country, so how will people judge how well work will pay, if it does, in different areas? Will the Minister explain how work will always pay, given that a localised scheme will be introduced prior to the universal credit? How will the two line up and interrelate?
That is not the only change that will affect working families in April 2013. For those who also claim housing benefit—let us not forget that seven out of eight housing benefit claimants are in low-paid employment—the outlook is even more bleak. The under-occupation penalty or bedroom tax will also come into effect. Wigan has a shortage of one-bedroom properties, and more than 8,000 residents are under-occupying. They will be unable to move, because we simply do not have one-bedroom properties, so they will face a minimum 15% reduction in housing benefit—approximately £12 a week.
The increase in deductions for non-dependants is already increasing by approximately 30% a year. In 2013, the deductions will be almost double what they were in 2010.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
It is interesting that my hon. Friend mentions the non-dependant deduction in relation to housing benefit. Was she as surprised as I was that the Prime Minister said in a speech on Monday that it was dreadful that housing benefit was lost if an adult child went into work? He did not seem to realise that his own Government had just substantially increased the deduction.
Yvonne Fovargue
Yes, that was somewhat surprising.
This is a difficult period in which to be a young person. The single room rent changes for the under-35s looking to rent privately are coming in, limiting housing benefit to £57.73, when a one-bedroom flat in Wigan costs approximately £90 a week.
Singly, any one of the changes will affect people on a low wage in a way that is extremely hard to cope with; cumulatively, they could well deliver a fatal blow. It is well reported that only a small decrease in income will push a struggling family from the position of just about managing to pay their bills to that of not coping, and sinking into unmanageable debt.
Mr Howarth, you would not expect me to miss an opportunity to remind hon. Members that the advice agencies that were hitherto there to help people and rescue them from that struggle are also struggling, and that the removal from the scope of legal aid welfare benefits and most debt work will have a significant impact on those agencies. That is coupled with the local authority reductions in funding, which could be even larger given the measure under discussion and the cuts that local authorities may have to make. There may be little or no support for people who could face the loss of their liberty due to council tax arrears.
As the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government stated:
“The proposals for the localisation of council tax support seem to us to provide an illusion of delegation with a minimum of real discretion, virtually guaranteeing that the funds available to support working-age…people will be squeezed.”
These hard-working families are already squeezed; councils are squeezed; and it is inevitable that, yet again, the poor and the vulnerable will suffer.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate. Being out of circulation for a month or two has not lessened my concerns about this issue. I want to place those concerns on the record again.
In the debate, we are considering three distinct aspects, but they are getting tangled up with one another. One is the localisation of council tax benefit. As a Liberal Democrat, I am firmly in favour of as much localisation as possible. Indeed, it is difficult to disagree with it, but the constraint of having to protect all pensioners—a laudable aim—clearly puts great pressure on some councils.
Let me give the example of East Dorset, part of which I represent. There, it is estimated that the impact of the cuts in council tax benefit for those in work will be something like a 33% reduction. We do have these differentials.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
The concerns that the hon. Lady is raising on her local council’s behalf are shared by the London borough of Bromley, which has a large retired population and an increasing ageing population. The impact that she mentions is, in Bromley, in the order of 25% for the working-age population. That is a concern that they share, too.
Annette Brooke
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The point is one that we need to keep reinforcing. As the hon. Member for Makerfield pointed out, what is happening is not true localisation, because councils have very little flexibility. Although I am certainly up for the localisation of council tax benefit, what we have before us at the moment—of course, it has still to be discussed fully in the other place—is not delivering what we want.
The second strand is deficit reduction and the cut of £500 million. That is a distinct aspect, even though it has a knock-on effect on the whole picture. I shall return to that in a moment. The other strand is that the Government have made it possible for councils to raise additional income through the empty homes premium and the flexibility to increase council tax on second homes. Again, I applaud that, but we all know that even though the sum of money that could be raised is £500 million, things will not match up council by council, so we do not have a complete solution to the problem that we are discussing, although some help is available.
I feel very strongly that, as the Local Government Finance Bill and all its implications are being discussed in the other place, there must at the very least be consideration of some transitional measures to help the people who will be hit. They will almost certainly be the low-income working families. Those people are right on the margins and just trying to improve their lot a little, but they get well and truly clobbered. As people have pointed out, that goes against the principle of universal credit, and I think that across the House we do support the principle of universal credit.
I cannot help but refer to the fact that £500 million was found yesterday to defer the increase in fuel tax. That will help our hard-pressed constituents, but, as I understand from “Newsnight”, it was found in underspent budgets. My message to my hon. Friend the Minister is this. Please can he go and have a look at those underspent budgets, because at the very least a transition would help some of our very vulnerable and well deserving people. They are hard-working, but are going to be in quite a trap over the next year.
Of course, if we do not make reductions in council tax benefit—many authorities will not want to do that—we move to cuts in other services, so the effect knocks on and on. I even had representations from my fire authority on Friday. It was concerned about potential cuts in its budget as a consequence of what is happening. It is an enormous issue. Everything sounds simple and laudable to start with, but as we work through all the implications, there is a strong case for at least looking for some mitigation measures. I hope that the Minister will put pressure on his colleagues. I know that the issue will be hotly debated by all parties in the other place. I hope that we will have an improvement in the situation.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. It might be helpful if I explain that the first of the two Front Benchers will be called at 10.40 am. There are rather a lot of hon. Members wishing to speak. If Members exercise a self-denying ordinance and stick to five minutes, we should be able to get everyone in. I will leave Simon Danczuk with that thought.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Howarth. I welcome the debate and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) for securing it. My comments will concentrate on two things: first, the purpose of the policy change and, secondly, the impact that it will have on our constituents.
One would like to think that Government make such changes to improve services, to improve people’s lives and to improve decision making. Unfortunately, this change does little to improve matters, because of how the policy is being introduced. If I were a cynical person, I would argue that the change is about saving money and redistributing money away from poorer areas. The Government have cut the funding for council tax benefit by 10%, as the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) pointed out. That is a saving of £500 million, but surely that is an arbitrary figure. It is another example of the Government making decisions without evidence. It is not based on fact. Why is it 10%?
I understand from the Local Government Association that the Government estimate a decline in the number of council tax benefit claimants in 2013-14 of about 12%, but as the Local Government Association states, it is not clear why the number is expected to decline. Perhaps the Minister can shed—[Interruption.] Yes, the number is probably going to increase. If the Government’s other predictions are anything to go by, in terms of unemployment, economic decline and the amount of money that the Government need to borrow, surely the number of council tax benefit claimants will increase. The Government are pushing their cuts on to local government to administer. That is the reality. Not only that, but because they have protected certain groups, such as older people, areas with higher need will carry a greater burden. That is after local authorities have had funding cuts of 19% over the past two years.
Let me point out that the public are not daft. The local government settlement, public health funding, the new homes bonus, repatriation of the business rates and now council tax benefit are all skewed towards better-off areas. In effect, the Government are stuffing money into the back pockets of wealthy local authority areas. That is the reality of the policies they are pushing forward. The public can see exactly what they are doing and they see that it is unfair.
The Government are also shifting risk. That cannot be dressed up as localism, because the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has given himself powers to prescribe who receives the benefit. Unhappy with wheelie bin collections and council newspapers, he gave himself more power. For such a big guy, the Secretary of State is obsessed with the minutiae of local authorities. He has the power, but local councils carry the risk. When the Department for Work and Pensions managed the budget, it was based on annually managed expenditure. When it transferred to councils, it was based on a cash-limited funding pot, so all the financial risk has switched from central to local government.
The other risks associated with the policy concern timing, as my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) pointed out. Will councils be ready in time? Is the software ready and appropriate? What happens if local groups challenge the decisions made locally? All the change is happening in a short time frame, when local authorities face unprecedented cuts and other major changes to their financial systems.
In conclusion, the issue is not only about systems and whether the power lies with central or local government; what concerns me most is the impact that the change will have on hard-working families—people who are not that well-off and people who struggle to make ends meet. Everyone here knows that in many towns and cities across the country, local councils will have to do the Government’s bidding when it comes to increasing the amount of council tax that working families pay, because council tax benefit is being cut. As my hon. Friend pointed out, the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, of which I am a member, said
“The proposals for the localisation of council tax support seem to us to provide an illusion of delegation with a minimum of real discretion, virtually guaranteeing that the funds available to support working-age unemployed people will be squeezed.”
I rest my case.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on the case that she put forward in opening the debate today.
I would go further than my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) and say clearly that the measure is not about reforming the benefit system or creating a fairer system, but a cynical move by the Government to impose crude cuts on individuals who can least afford it. It is a cynical way to cut the money given to local councils.
As we have seen, and heard from my hon. Friend, local authorities, including my own, are facing a massive financial squeeze. The Government were not satisfied with the in-year cuts that they placed on Tameside and similar authorities. Tameside has had to reduce the budget over three years by almost £100 million, which has a major impact on what a local authority can do. It is not only Tameside; the picture is mirrored across the country. The areas most in need feel the pinch the hardest, which means that their local authorities’ capacity to help them is greatly diminished.
A Government proposal such as council tax benefit localisation affects real people. The figures from Tameside council show that in 2011-12 nearly £20 million— £19.3 million—was spent on council tax benefit, which is 32,245 claimants. A 10% reduction would amount to £2 million. According to the Government, among those claimants, the 13,569 pensioners, who received £8,481,078-worth of council tax benefit, are protected, which means that the squeeze is forced on 7,990 families with dependent children, who last year received £5,288,698-worth of council tax benefit. Those are the same families with dependent children who are being attacked at every level of Government policy, not least through the reduction and removal of tax credits.
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that among those who will be rubbing their hands at the prospect of the measures will be the bailiff agencies? There has already been a significant increase in the use of bailiffs to recover arrears from the kind of low-income families that he mentions. My local authority used bailiffs 30,000 times over three years for council tax and housing benefit. The faster the population churn, the more likely it is that bailiffs will be used. Using bailiffs for very small amounts of money—huge for the families concerned, but small for the bailiffs—is likely to lead to yet another surge in the sector.
Andrew Gwynne
I agree with my hon. Friend completely. I know from my casework the pressures that are put on local authorities to collect the money owed to them and to collect it quickly. They utilise all tools at their disposal, including bailiffs, which brings great distress to families who simply struggle to find even small amounts of money. It pushes them further into poverty. I totally accept the point she makes.
What has been completely lost by the Government in all the debates that we have had, most recently in the consideration on the Floor of the House of the Local Government Finance Bill, is that council tax benefit is an in-work benefit. Listening to Ministers at the Dispatch Box, one would think that the changes were all about the feckless poor, who do not deserve the benefit, and about removing money from them—the undeserving poor. I will not get into a debate about the deserving and undeserving poor—I leave that to the coalition parties—but I know from my constituency that a great number of the people who receive council tax benefit are in work. They are in low-paid, and often part-time, work. If we are to create a benefit system that is about making work pay, the way to do it is not to go ahead with such measures.
The Minister and I share a local authority. I have mentioned Tameside.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
On the in-work benefit point, does my hon. Friend not think that it is an absolute nonsense that the Government say that the 10% reduction will strengthen local authorities’ incentive to promote employment and growth in the local economy, given that those who receive the benefit are already working? As he said earlier on the cuts, local authorities do not have the money left for the job and growth promotion tasks that they might have wanted to do.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is right. That shows what nonsense many of the statements of the DCLG are. It makes no logical sense.
My constituency shares a local authority with the Minister’s. One of the perks, I suppose, of having a cross-borough constituency is that I can quote two councils. The Minister will know that, even in Stockport, which is by all standards a much more prosperous borough than Tameside, there are areas of deprivation and social need. There will also be families in low-paid work, who will feel the squeeze from measures such as the one we are debating. From a local point of view, therefore, I urge the Minister to listen to Stockport council, which has concerns about such measures, and wants them to be thought through better before they must be implemented.
I agree with the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) about localism. We all believe in localism—certainly those of us who came through local government. I spent 12 almost happy years on Tameside council, which was a great training ground. However, if we are to make localism work, it must be genuine. The council tax benefit reforms are, I fear, localising the cuts and the blame, not genuinely localising a scheme of council tax benefits. That is because the Government have made the false assumption that all councils have a level playing field. Tameside council is completely different from Stockport council. It has a different level of ability to raise income and supplement loss of income, whether that is through localisation of the business rates or raising extra council tax, to pay for services or shortfalls in budgets such as council tax benefit. I urge the Government to consider their proposal carefully, because they are clobbering the working poor.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this significant debate and I pay tribute to her. She has highlighted an important issue.
I want to follow on from some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). I agreed with many of the comments of the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), who made them in a calm and reasoned manner and highlighted the effect of benefit changes on the working-age population. I thank Durham county council, my local authority, for furnishing me with some figures to suggest the scale of the impact in my area.
The Consumer Credit Counselling Service reports a rise of almost a third in the number of people who rent their homes and seek advice on council tax debts, and a rise of more than a quarter across both renters and owners. That dramatic increase comes as a result of the worsening financial situation for ordinary people, particularly in my area, that is made tougher by the plethora of coalition Government policies, which seem to be hitting the poorest hardest. By scrapping the existing council tax benefit system at the same time as cutting funding for benefits, the Government will only exacerbate the financial problems that ordinary families face in areas such as Easington.
Ring-fencing council tax benefits for pensioners is, on the face of it, an idea to protect some of the most vulnerable, but the other side of the coin is that the impact on working-age households will be all the more severe. Indeed, just before the debate I twittered that I hoped to catch your eye, Mr Howarth, and one of my constituents, Madeleine, contacted me and asked me to be at pains to point out the impact on people like her—single adults in work who are claiming council tax benefit.
There are 43,710 homes in the former Easington district council area that makes up the bulk of my constituency, 13,800 of which are in receipt of council tax benefit. That amounts to almost one third of households. As my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield said, council tax benefit is the most comprehensively claimed benefit. It is claimed by 5.9 million households across the UK, a rate that is higher than for any other means-tested benefit or even tax credit. The plans to force local authorities to deliver a localised benefit system will create unfair disparities between council areas and regions.
Welfare benefits are, in the main, determined at a national level; I am referring to the determination of benefit levels and qualifying entitlements. However, the present proposals have the potential to undermine the fairness of the overall benefits system. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has made it clear that the proposals mean that councils must choose between cuts in essential services, cuts to benefits for working-age households or a council tax rise. Sir Merrick Cockell of the Local Government Association has highlighted a starker choice for councils:
“They can either cease helping the working poor, or continue to support them by taking money from other services or putting up council tax”.
A report by the LGA yesterday suggested that by 2020, because of external pressures—principally meeting the costs of adult social care—local authorities are likely to provide only those services that they are statutorily obliged to provide. Not only is the coalition shirking its responsibility and passing the buck to local government; it is cutting funding by 10% for good measure— £500 million, as the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said.
The policy of localisation of council tax benefit is completely at odds with the Government’s rhetoric that there should be no increase in council tax. Durham county council has 63,000 claimants and an estimated spend of £55 million for 2012-13. Almost half of claimants in Durham are pensioners, who the Government stipulate will face no cut. Therefore the burden will clearly fall on the one quarter of claimants in County Durham who have dependent children; the one tenth of claimants who are in work on low wages; and those who are out of work and looking for work. The latter group has grown in number, particularly in the north-east and especially in my constituency, under the policies of the coalition Government. Indeed, the DWP’s own research shows that 3 million households currently entitled to claim council tax benefit do not do so. That figure is likely to rise in tough economic times.
It is true that pensioners are protected, but the proposals place only an “expectation” on councils to protect vulnerable groups. As my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield said, that throws up a raft of other problems. Indeed, Durham county council is not alone in its concern that councils may face a legal challenge owing to local interpretations of which groups should be treated as more vulnerable than others; my hon. Friend mentioned carers.
Other concerns include the danger that as the financial burden will now fall on local taxpayers, should costs increase owing to conditions largely outside a council’s control—I might mention the rising cost of adult social care—the impact on services, benefits or rates will be overwhelming. The proposals are inherently unfair and go against the grain of the Government’s plan for a streamlined benefits system. It is not acceptable for the Secretary of State to wash his hands of his responsibilities.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I make heartfelt apologies to the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) and to all hon. Members for not being here at the start of the debate. We had a bit of a train crisis meeting, so I apologise for my delay. I will make a short contribution because I am conscious that many others wish to speak.
My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) and I have written to the Secretary of State asking for more clarity on this matter. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us that today. If not, perhaps he could put out further notices clarifying the definition of what is “vulnerable” and what is a “vulnerable group”.
At the moment, council leaders and officers are struggling with how this system will look. Initially, the view was pessimistic, but that is often the case when there is a cut in funds, and there has to be a redistribution of the pot. In constituencies such as Suffolk Coastal, a significantly higher proportion of the population are pensioners. There are concerns that the impact of the measure on people of working age will be considerably more, given that pensioners will see no impact on their council tax benefits.
However, I say as a supportive Back Bencher that there is a challenge on us all to try to do things with the welfare state. We should see the issue as a way to encourage our local government partners to be part of the solution, which is to attract businesses and employment and to make the system a key part of encouraging people to get out to work.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
I know that, through circumstances beyond her control, the hon. Lady was not here for the early part of the debate. The point that has been made over and over again is that council tax benefit is an in-work benefit. Many of the recipients are deemed, as those who are disabled are, to be incapable of working. Therefore, the argument that councils can mitigate that by attracting more employment fails at that basic level.
Dr Coffey
I understand why the hon. Lady says that. [Hon. Members: “Because it is true!”] Hon. Members should allow me to develop my argument. The average wage in Suffolk is considerably lower than that of counties nearby. It is probably lower than that in Lancashire and possibly lower than that in Liverpool, where I grew up.
District councils must try to attract higher-quality, skilled businesses to our area, so that they are not solely reliant on tourism and agriculture, which traditionally pay fairly low salaries. This system is part of a mechanism to encourage local councils to attract such businesses. With more businesses in an area, there will be a greater retention of business rates, with district councils, not county councils, taking 50% of such rates. Perhaps this measure is a blunt stick to encourage local councils to do their bit and to help their residents get higher skills and higher-value employment. We may be using a blunt stick to achieve that, but the aim is to say to local councils, “You have a role to play in the economic benefits for your area, and you should not simply be a processing house for benefit claims.”
Mr Howarth, I said that my speech would be short. I have taken one intervention, and I now leave it to other hon. Members to continue the debate.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this important debate. I want to make three points. The first goes back to something that the Communities and Local Government Committee said in October, following the evidence that we took last July. We were against not the principle of the changes but the way in which the Government were going about them. Importantly, we said:
“We recommend that the Government delay the introduction of the new Council Tax support system by a year or more, if consultation with local authorities indicates that this would reduce the risks inherent in introducing many complex changes concurrently.”
That is an important point. Since then, the Local Government Association has repeatedly said that it has concerns with the timetable. In its briefing to us, it said that it urged the Government
“to give councils the necessary time to do this in the most considered, flexible and cost-effective way possible.”
In January, Capita wrote to all the local authorities for which it provides services, saying that it did not think that it could deliver the necessary systems in the time scale. I do not think that that advice has changed. Certainly, when I spoke this morning to Councillor Bryan Lodge, the cabinet member for finance in Sheffield, he said that the advice had not changed. When we had the debate on the Local Government Finance Bill in January, it was interesting that the Minister did not draw attention to that letter from Capita, although he was well aware of it at the time.
What is the situation now? Are the Government saying that despite all the concerns of local councils, the LGA and service providers such as Capita, they believe, in their wisdom, that this can all go ahead on time and without any problems—not just for councils and the administrators, but for the people who receive the benefits at the end of the line?
I just think back to Sheffield in 1999 when we had privatised the housing benefit service and transferred it to Capita in a rushed and botched way. I remember the constituents, often elderly, coming to my surgeries in tears not because they had done anything wrong but because the administration of their benefits was in chaos and, as a result, the arrears on their council tax and rent had risen. They were distraught because they had never been in arrears in their lives. I worry that we will go back to that situation.
The responsibility will be not with local councils but with the Government who will push this through on an unacceptable and unattainable timetable. I say to the Minister that it is not too late to stop. I am talking about not the intention but the ridiculous timetable on which the Government have embarked. If this was simply a question of localism and of saying to local councils, “Do it the way you want,” there would not be a problem.
George Hollingbery
I am a member of the Select Committee and have something to do with the production of its report and the idea behind it. I have always recognised that this is something of a complex area.
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there are some very real technical complexities in putting this system in place, but there is also an appetite among Ministers for shared systems and projects across large local areas? For example, in Hampshire, there are 16 different district councils, so a shared scheme across the area would make a lot of sense; it would save money in administration and so on. Necessarily, though, it will be a complex system to put in place, with legal agreements that will need to be considered and thought through. A little more time for that might also be very welcome.
Mr Betts
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point; we will get a better scheme for having it slightly later. The savings will be better, as will the service to our constituents.
I say to the Minister that if this was simply a question of saying to local councils, “Get on and devise your own schemes,” they could do it. The problem is that they do not know how to devise a scheme in respect of the advice and detailed regulation that come from Government, because they have not got it yet. It is because the Government are insisting on regulating the details of a localised scheme so closely that they are in these difficulties.
I have two further brief points. One is about the 10% cut. If councils cannot devise their own schemes, they will have to opt for the existing scheme, which means that they will have to find the 10%; £4.5 million in Sheffield on top of the £200 million of cuts that the council is trying to make. That goes for every council in the country—cuts on top of cuts. That is the problem that the Government are forcing on local councils. There is the invidious choice of finding this money from other services, which are already being cut very substantially, or making the cuts in the benefits of people of working age on top of the cuts in benefits and working tax credits that those same families are having to take. It is the cumulative effect on those families that the Government have done no proper analysis of.
Finally, we still do not know from the Government how the administration of the system will work. They are localising council tax benefit and centralising housing benefit. There is a simple arrangement now for people whose income changes: they go down to the local council and speak to someone. In Sheffield, there is the home visiting service for the elderly and disabled, where someone comes along and helps them sort out both benefits. Now we will have a council tax benefit that we go to the council for and a housing benefit that we will have to go online for—or on a telephone to someone in Jobcentre Plus. For elderly people, that will be an impossible arrangement.
The Government say they will talk to local councils to find a way forward. As I understand it, there is no clear idea from the Government about how these two complex benefits will be arranged in the future when we will have two completely separate systems that people have to go through to get their problems sorted out.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Diolch, Mr Howarth, for calling me to speak.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this important debate and on making a very informative speech. She speaks with great authority on these issues, as a former worker in the Citizens Advice service, a service that I am also very proud to have worked for before entering this place.
I will concentrate my remarks today on the effect of these proposals on Wales. Of course, I should begin by saying that I am not opposed to the devolution of council tax benefits to Wales; normally, I would be here in Westminster Hall strongly welcoming that move. However, it seems inherently wrong that it should be done with the insistence that a 10% cut be made to the amount of benefits that can be provided. Essentially, we are telling some of the most vulnerable members of our society, who currently rely on benefits to maintain their standard of living, that they will get less in future.
No justification has been provided for the cut at a time when many families are struggling to make ends meet and when the median income is declining sharply, as we saw from the HBAI, or households below average income, figures released recently. Following a week in which tax avoidance by multi-millionaires was the main news story, it is depressing that we are once again debating measures whereby the UK Government are attacking the living standards of those at the bottom of society—working people who require additional support.
There are 328,000 claimants of council tax benefits in Wales, making it one of the most widely claimed benefits in Wales. In my own local authority area of Carmarthenshire, there are 19,090 households that receive council tax benefit in one form or another—approximately 23% of all dwellings on which council tax is charged. Sadly, though, and at the risk of upsetting the colleagues around me today, I must say that the Labour Government in Wales have spent more time on scoring political points against the Tories in London than on developing solutions to the problem of a 10% cut.
The cut was first announced in the summer of 2010—immediately after the general election—and yet two years later, and only months before its implementation, the Labour Government in Wales are still complaining that they do not have the necessary information. Last week’s meeting of the Welsh Government with the Secretary of State for Wales was, according to media reports in Wales, not overly fruitful, although perhaps the Minister can update us on that meeting when he sums up later.
We are still waiting for the Welsh Government to announce their position on this cut, although hopefully they will do so soon, given the publication last week of a report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which made a number of suggestions. The IFS said that, to meet the 10% cut, the Welsh Government could impose a straight “salami slice” that would reduce the amount of support for all claimants. Alternatively, they could make reforms that would reduce the amount of support for council tax received by those living in higher-banded properties. They could introduce reforms that means-test support for council tax more aggressively, or introduce a reform to the current discount for single residents, changing underlying council tax liabilities.
We have yet to hear the Welsh Government’s response to the IFS report, but they have said that they face a challenging budget and will simply pass on the cuts in one form or another to Welsh local authorities. Given that Labour said in the election for the National Assembly of Wales that they would shield Wales from Westminster’s cuts, it is a gross dereliction of duty for it simply to pass those cuts on. That “challenging budget”, after all, comes as a result of Labour’s failure to reform the Barnett formula when they were in power in Westminster.
In the meantime, the Scottish Government have announced that they will protect recipients of council tax benefit from the cuts. The contrast between a strong Scottish National party Government in Scotland and a lethargic, supine Labour party in Wales could not be clearer. My party strongly favours fiscal responsibility and accountability for the decisions made by the Welsh Government, but this 10% cut should not be passed down to Wales by the Con-Dems and nor should it be passed on to the people of Wales by Labour.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Howarth, for giving me the opportunity to speak. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) for calling this debate. My contribution will follow on neatly from that of the last speaker, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), because I will talk a bit about the situation in Scotland.
When I came into the House two years ago and this whole debate about localism began, I was wont to go around saying to my colleagues, “Huh! We’ve had this for the last three years”—I think that was how long it had been by that point—“and it isn’t working.” That was because the Scottish nationalist Government had introduced in 2007 a policy of localism, although they did not quite call it that and they did not perhaps talk about it in quite the same way as others. However, the impact has been exactly the same as elsewhere.
The problem is that talking about delegating decisions to local authorities is all well and good, but if at the same time the financial squeeze is put on, that is not real delegation of power. That is what we have seen in Scotland; we have now seen it for five years. We have had a council tax freeze, which nobody has been able to break out of. It is a very populist notion. I know that people think, “Oh, that’s great, you’re freezing the council tax,” but we must remember that those who receive council tax benefit—the poorest and most vulnerable people—got absolutely nothing from it. The measure is actually highly regressive, and it is also cumulative year on year.
In that financial strangulation, a council tax freeze is applied. Then, as has happened in Scotland this year, local government starts to be given less money and is told, “There you are, it’s over to you for all sorts of decisions.” That has been very damaging and very difficult for local government. Although some local councils in Scotland embraced the notion of a council tax freeze at the outset—wrongly, I think, and my own Labour group on the City of Edinburgh council, although they were then in opposition, pointed out the flaws in the notion right from the beginning—most of them have now realised that the situation is very difficult for them indeed. Without a local area having the power to raise its own resources and have control over its finances, localism is not really localism, and that is the root of a lot of the problems that we have discussed this morning.
Obviously, Scotland faces the same situation as other places, in that the money is simply being cut by Westminster. What the Scottish Government have done about that so far is disappointingly limited: they have said they will not impose the 10% cut, although the cut will be coming from London. That sounds good on the surface, but only half of that money is coming from Scottish Government funds; the rest will come from local government. Therefore, local government in Scotland is experiencing the squeeze in exactly the same way as local government in other places.
The Scottish Government made that announcement shortly before the local government elections in May and said, “We will be saving Scotland from this 10% cut,” but they did not say that that will have an impact on other services, and that half of the money to deal with the cuts will be found from local government, which already has reduced resources. To anybody who thinks that the Scottish Government have some magical way out of these difficulties, I would say, “That is just not the case.”
I regret the fact that, at the moment, there is still a lack of clarity in Scotland about how the proposal will work in future, how it will be developed and how a new form of benefit will come out of the present situation. It is all too easy for the Scottish Government. Their line on most things at the moment is to say, “Well, if you vote for separation, everything will be solved.” It’s land of milk and honey stuff, but a lot of the problems that I have mentioned will still be there.
I hope that in the next few months the Scottish Government will not wait for this nirvana that they claim is to come but instead will start to think seriously about how we create a proper benefit in Scotland for all the groups who receive council tax benefit. For example, the current system for council tax benefit has some details that we do not want to lose. On carers, the current structure of council tax benefit includes a carer’s premium, which makes a difference to many households with caring responsibilities. We have just had carers week, and a lot of warm words have been said about carers. Let us hope, however, that all local authorities up and down the country that will be affected by this change—both the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government will be creating a new form of benefit—do not forget carers.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. Three Members still wish to speak. If they can each confine themselves to speaking for three to four minutes, we should be able to get everyone in.
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Howarth, for giving me the opportunity to speak. I draw attention to the interest that I have declared in the register.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this debate, which highlights what I consider to be a very instructive example of how not to effect change in social policy. We can have arguments about the merits of localising council tax benefit, and those arguments have been deployed today. Some people believe that the change is important as part of a localist agenda; others believe there is a problem in separating the administration of housing benefit from the administration of council tax benefit. Those arguments are perfectly legitimate, but let us put them aside for a moment and assume that making the change is a sensible route to follow. How would this Government—if they were an intelligent, sensible Government—go about making it?
There are three fundamental objectives. The first is to be clear about the policy, so that everyone involved knows exactly how the change will work, what the expectations are, and what the success measures will be—how it will be judged a success or otherwise. The second key objective is to have detailed consultation with everyone affected. As we have heard, the number of people receiving the benefit is approaching 6 million—no other benefit has more recipients. Such a consultation should identify any especially adverse impacts on particular groups, contradictions between elements in the policy that could have perverse effects, and any other such anomalies, so that the policy can be refined and then work effectively. Thirdly, there needs to be plenty of time, to enable the change to be introduced in an orderly and well-planned way.
The Government have failed all three tests. That is an extraordinary comment on how they, looking increasingly like a bunch of incompetents, have approached the issue. Although the objective of localisation is clear, the policy is still wrapped in ambiguity. How will the arbitrary 10% cut that the Government are imposing—a cut that runs against any principle of sensible policy change—be implemented if the Government’s objectives are to be met? Those objectives are that pensioners and other vulnerable households should be protected, and that there should be no work disincentives. I challenge the Minister to tell us—he has failed to do so when previously challenged—how any organisation can make a 10% cut in the overall benefit level while protecting pensioners and without creating work disincentives. Protecting pensioners will result, on average, in a 16% cut to others, substantial numbers of whom are in work. We still wait to understand the detail. Why is the policy not clear, even now?
Consultation, the second objective, has been notable by its absence. A few local authorities are beginning to consult with their residents, but they are shackled because the full details of the scheme are not yet available. The legislation is still only part way through Parliament—in the upper House—and the regulations have not been published. Local authorities are trying to do the right thing but are unable to do so properly, and the vast majority of the population, therefore, have very little idea of what will soon hit them.
That brings me on to the third criterion, the implementation timetable, which is, perhaps, the most lamentable failure of all on the part of the Government. The scheme must be implemented from April 2013, which means that councils must have all arrangements in place by the end of January next year, which is just seven months away. Before that, they must carry out detailed consultation, to ensure that all groups in the area are aware of the implications, and they then need to refine their policy to take account of the results. They also need to brief software suppliers, put the administrative arrangements in place, and do all the publicity, so that people know how the new arrangement will operate and, indeed, as the Select Committee Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) rightly highlighted, to ensure that people understand how the complex new arrangements, which will involve different applications for housing benefit and council tax benefit, will work. All that must be done in seven months. In the best possible circumstances, with the regulations published and everything clear, that would be a tall order, but in the current situation, where we do not even know what the law will require, it is impossible. That is why people are saying, “It is simply beyond the scope of any reasonable local authority to be able to administer this without administrative chaos.”
I remind the Minister of what happened when housing benefit was introduced. His party was not part of the Government at that stage—it was a Conservative Government—but the process was highlighted at the time, in the early 1980s, as probably the worst administrative fiasco in the history of the welfare state. I put it to the Minister that he is now part of a Government who are moving in a direction that could well receive similar criticism in seven months’ time, when they try to put in place, with an impossible timetable and a lack of clarity on policy, a series of measures that will have far-reaching effects on the income levels of large numbers of people. This is a shambles. It is not how administrative or social policy should be carried out, and I sincerely hope that the Government will listen to all the appeals to delay the measure, to allow proper time for the administrative changes to be made in a proper way.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Chairman, for this opportunity to speak. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing such an important and timely debate. I also congratulate everyone who has contributed so far, and I agree with every word they have said.
Time is short, and it is difficult to put every argument forward. As a former councillor of 28 years in the London borough of Ealing, I am only too well aware of the impact that this Government policy will have on those least able to bear the financial consequences of the irresponsibility of the bankers and the Government’s failed economic policies.
Before I address directly the localisation of council tax benefit, I want to remind the House of the cuts that local government is already struggling to deal with, as a result of the Government’s decisions to cut too deep and too fast. Local government across the country is taking a 28% budget cut, a much greater cut than for almost any other arm of Government. In Ealing, the council is faced with an £85 million cut over four years, which is more than 30% of its controllable budget. It has found 70% of the cuts through creating greater efficiencies, cutting out waste, renegotiating contracts, increasing its income, cutting back on senior management and finding new ways of working. Only 30% of the £85 million cuts have fallen on front-line services. That is what a Labour council can do when faced with an unprecedented financial challenge, made worse by the Government’s economic incompetence. But, as the cuts continue to roll in, it can only do so much.
The Government’s scheme to give councils the responsibility for delivering council tax benefit while cutting the funds to pay for it by 10%, is just the latest additional financial burden that councils face. The Government are also telling councils that they must protect pensioners from any cuts to their council tax benefit, which is a good thing, but, with the 10% cut in the grant, other groups of council tax benefit recipients, including the working poor, will receive cuts of up to 40% in their benefit, depending on the number of pensioners in their area. Where does that leave the Government’s policy to make work pay? In tatters, I suggest.
In addition, the grant, reduced by 10%, is a one-off settlement, which means that councils will have to bear all the risk of any future increases in council tax benefit take-up caused by the loss of local jobs. That is a considerable risk, given the current fragile state of the UK economy and the ongoing crisis in the eurozone. The eurozone could fall apart at any moment, and cause a further wave of financial turmoil and job losses. What should a council do if a major employer experiences difficulties and goes to the wall, creating significant job losses and a huge take-up in council tax benefit? On top of the already draconian cuts it is dealing with, it will have to cut other services to meet its council tax benefit obligations.
This is localism of the worst sort. The Government are giving the responsibility and the risk to local government, but are cutting the budget by 10% and telling councils who they should give the benefit to. True localism would give councils both the financial means and the freedom to decide how to administer the benefits, and to whom.
Local government is already bearing the brunt of the Government’s failed austerity programme, and this cut is a cut too far. It will hit the already vulnerable, including the working poor, and it flies in the face of everything that Members on this side of the House believe, and of what the Government profess to believe. The Government are out of touch, and are cynically trying to blame local councils for the cut that they themselves are choosing to make. The public will see through that, and the blame will lie fairly and squarely with the Government, unless they U-turn yet again.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I shall be extremely brief. It is a serious mistake to miss council tax benefit out of universal credit. Universal credit was supposed to be universal, but if council tax is not included, it will not be.
I have three questions for the Minister. First, will universal credit be counted as income in the means test for council tax benefit? Secondly, will local authorities have access to universal credit data when calculating people’s council tax benefit? Thirdly, does the Minister accept, as has been made clear in this debate, that many councils will not be in a position to implement the new system in time for April next year?
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing this debate, and all my other hon. Friends who have spoken. They are too numerous to mention individually in the time available, but all of them have expressed concern about the unfairness of the policy. It is unfair even according to the standards of the Government, who seem to have elevated inequity into a policy position.
The policy represents a circle that is impossible for councils to square. The shift from annually managed expenditure to cash-limited expenditure, coupled with a 10% budget cut—while pensioners must be protected, which we support—means that the brunt of the cuts will fall on the most vulnerable people in the community. Who are those people? Many of them are poor working families. The cuts that they will bear—entirely arbitrary, depending on how many pensioners are in the local authority—will range from 13.4% to 25.2%. The national average will be 17%. If councils try to protect other vulnerable groups such as disabled people and carers, as the Government default scheme suggests they should, the cut for working families could be as much as 40% of benefit.
The Government trumpet that they have taken people out of tax by raising the tax threshold. Those gains, such as they were, have already been wiped out by increases in VAT and changes to housing benefit and tax credits. For many poor families, they will be wiped out yet again by the increase in council tax. The sad thing is that the Government do not even recognise the existence of such families. The Minister for Housing and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), said to the Select Committee that
“if somebody is in work they will not be receiving the benefit because they will not need to”.
How wrong can one be, and how wilfully blind? A parliamentary answer that I received from a Department for Work and Pensions Minister, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), told me that 743,600 people are non-passported recipients of council tax benefit and in work. There are others on passported benefits, of course, who are in part-time work.
Looking at the local authorities of which my hon. Friends have spoken, there are 3,430 such people in the Wigan borough and more than 2,000 in my own. Stockport has 2,860, Tameside has 2,830, Rochdale has 2,900 and County Durham has an incredible 5,810. Do the Departments talk to one another, or is this, as most of the Opposition believe, a piece of Government spin designed to convince everyone that the benefits go to people who are out of work?
The implication, of course, is that people are out of work through their own fault. That would be nonsense even if it were true, given that there is a double-dip recession and 2.6 million people are unemployed, but it is not true. The benefit often goes to families trying to do the right thing by going out to work for low wages because they believe in the value of work and in setting an example to their children. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) said that councils that pay higher wages can attract more businesses. That is interesting, given that Government policy is clearly to depress wages in many areas of the country by targeting regional pay in the public sector. They are driving wages not up but down.
Who else will be hit by the legislation? There is no protection at all in the Bill for people with disabilities—even those in the support group for employment and support allowance, who are not expected to seek work even if it is available, which in the current double-dip recession is unlikely. Nor is there any protection for those in the work-related activity group, who by definition are not expected to seek paid employment to increase their income. How ludicrous it is, then, for the Government to claim that their purpose is to spur councils on to create more jobs when many of the people affected are in work or defined as unable to seek work.
Another group who will suffer, mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), is carers. Carers are defined by the national insurance credit regulations as caring for 20 hours a week or more for someone in receipt of certain benefits. Carers are the people whom the Prime Minister called the unsung heroes of society in 2010. Now they will be rewarded with a council tax increase. What are they supposed to do? If they stop caring and go out and get a job, the state will pick up a burden costing millions of pounds for the social care that they were providing. A tax increase for carers and disabled people and a tax cut for millionaires—nothing could better sum up the Government’s distorted priorities.
As some of my hon. Friends have mentioned, as with the Government’s plans for business rates, the poorest areas will be hit hardest. I have already given some figures. The number of people in Manchester who are in work and receiving council tax benefit is more than 8,000. In Liverpool, it is more than 6,000. In Salford, a much smaller authority, it is 3,500. By contrast, South Bucks has 420, Melton has 440 and the City of London has 40.
That means that councils with a lot of people in that category are being hit by a triple whammy. First, defaults will rise. As my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield reminded us, that is an imprisonable offence. Secondly, it will be much harder for councils to mitigate the effect on people in work, simply because there are more of them. Thirdly, they will lose a significant amount of money from their local economy, as people try to make up the shortfall with income that they would otherwise have spent in local shops and businesses. My own local authority, for instance, will lose £1.3 million. Wigan will lose £2.6 million, Tameside £1.9 million and County Durham a whopping £5.5 million.
George Hollingbery
Is it not true that from an individual rather than a collective point of view, the cuts will actually fall hardest on those areas with the oldest demography rather than the greatest poverty? That is where the most distortion will happen. Collectively, there are areas with more people in receipt of benefit, but of course the budgets reflect that already.
Helen Jones
Actually, they do not. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Local Government Finance Bill, he will see that its impact falls on the poorest authorities in the country. I have no doubt that there are difficulties in some areas with pensioners, but let me give him figures on what some of the wealthier areas will lose: Hertfordshire will lose £293,000 and Melton £246,000. Like the rest of the Government’s financial initiatives, this is designed to hit the poorest areas most—and, of course, it transfers all the financial risk to local authorities.
If more pensioners claim, as is likely under this system, that will be a good thing, but the money will have to be found in a cash-limited system. If unemployment increases, especially if a big employer closes down, the money will have to be found either from the poorest people receiving benefits or from cuts in benefits elsewhere. When the Government say that they wish to include council tax in the local business rate system, they fail to say that safety nets will kick in only if a council’s income falls between 7.5% and 10% below the baseline.
Helen Jones
I am sorry, but I have to wind up; otherwise, I will exceed my time.
This ill-thought-out system will produce disincentives against working and hit the poor and vulnerable most. The Minister needs to think again.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on launching the debate, and the many colleagues who have contributed to it. It will be extremely challenging to answer all the points raised, so I will pick out what seem to me to be the key ones. It is time that will limit what I am able to say, certainly not the strength of the arguments.
There has always been recognition in the House that welfare spending needs to be targeted properly and that more needs to be done to tackle poverty by getting people off benefits and into work. Part of achieving that, and part of the Government’s strategy for doing so, is to return control over council tax support to councils and for local authorities to have the freedom to decide how to help provide for the most vulnerable in their communities.
Andrew Stunell
Yes, although it will reduce my chances of answering all the points that have been raised.
Grahame M. Morris
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on this fundamental point. Will he recognise that housing benefit is an in-work benefit?
Andrew Stunell
I suspect that the hon. Gentleman meant to say council tax benefit, which is what we are debating. I certainly accept the figures given by the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones). Of course, some of the recipients of the benefit are in work. That is not in doubt or dispute.
I remind Members that council tax benefit expenditure more than doubled between 1997 and 2010. Much of this debate has centred on two different but overlapping things: localisation, which, on the whole, Members present seem to approve of; and the reduction in the total amount of money being distributed, which, on the whole, they seem to disagree with. I understand the difficulties that this creates, but I remind Members that the reason why we have to reduce central Government spending is the inheritance that the Government received in 2010.
Andrew Stunell
No, I will not.
At that time, there was a gap of £400 million every day between the amount being spent by the outgoing Government and the amount they were receiving, in tax and other receipts—£400 million was being added every day to the national deficit. The measure we are discussing is part of the Government’s strategy to put this country’s finances back on a firm footing. As has been noted, it consists of a reduction of £500 million per year—not per day—as a contribution to closing the gap between public expenditure and public income.
That brings me to the contributions of hon. Members representing constituencies in Wales and Scotland. In both those nations, the allocation of the reduction is strictly in accordance with the Barnett formula, and that reduction is no more ring-fenced in its decrease than any increase under the formula. It is entirely a matter for the Welsh and Scottish Administrations to decide how to proceed on the schemes in their respective countries. It is important to make that point.[Official Report, 17 July 2012, Vol. 548, c. 1MC.]
That brings me to the many points that have been made about the implications and ramifications of the reductions. I want to illustrate how far wide of the mark some of those comments were by reference to a point made by the hon. Member for Mackerfield.
Andrew Stunell
I apologise for mispronouncing the constituency name; I ought to know better, as I come from that part of the world.
Under our proposed scheme, Wigan metropolitan borough will face a reduction of £2,130,661. I am happy for that to appear on the record.
Andrew Stunell
No, I will not give way on any points, because I want to proceed.
In another part of the Local Government Finance Bill, we are giving Wigan metropolitan borough the capacity to change its current discounts and exemptions for empty homes and second homes. Wigan metropolitan borough, which I am sure the hon. Member for Makerfield would agree has considerable social and economic problems, will be able to raise £2,173,854, if it chooses to exercise its discretion fully. The difference between those two figures is £43,000 in Wigan’s favour; under the Bill, it will have capacity to raise more revenue than it will lose.
That important point very much undermines the arguments made by a number of Members. It brings a sense of reality—[Laughter.] The nature of things is that very few Members of Parliament have detailed experience of local government finance systems; they are highly dependent on the advice they receive from local authorities and their senior finance officers. If Opposition Members asked their individual local authorities how much they would be able to increase their income if they took advantage of the Bill’s proposed discounts and exemption changes, I think that, almost without exception, those Members would be substantially surprised.
In my remaining two minutes, I want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) for her comments. I welcome her back, because she has been absent from the House for some time. She has not lost her touch. She made it very clear what she thinks about the issue and has been consistent and persistent in making her point. The authorities in Dorset and Poole can, if they choose to, offset the reduction in support for council tax benefit via changes to the exemptions that they levy.
The hon. Member for Makerfield made a point about the schemes that local authorities will introduce, but I am sure that it will be obvious to her that Wigan can continue with exactly the same scheme as it has now, if it wishes to do so. If it continues with that scheme, it will not need the guidance and support that we have already issued to local authorities on all the relevant matters. Indeed, some local authorities are already carrying out public consultations on alternative schemes and will have them in place by 1 April.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
The hon. Gentleman is experienced enough to know that that is not a point of order.
Andrew Stunell
Wigan does not have to do that, because if it takes advantage of the discounts and exemptions that we have given it, it will be able to carry on with its current scheme.
Human Rights (Kashmir)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth, and I welcome the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne).
This is a short debate on a very controversial and difficult issue that concerns an awful lot of British citizens who have links with Kashmir. One or two colleagues have asked whether they may make interventions and, as a courteous chap, obviously I say yes, but I want to get most of my points across first and the Minister must have his time to reply. I fear, however—I mean no disrespect, having sat in his chair—that the Government line on human rights in Kashmir is not likely to change as a result of anything I say today. To be fair to the Minister, that line has not much changed in recent years in any case.
To put some points on the record, I am not attacking India per se. I admire India, its democracy, its rule of law and its vibrant culture, and I wish it well, but precisely because I do like and admire India, where I think that there is grievous fault I have an obligation to point it out. I do not want to go into the long history of Kashmir and the original UN resolutions, which were violated when the Kashmiri people were not allowed a plebiscite—as the UN had instructed—or their independent say on their future status 60 or more years ago.
I strongly welcome the dialogue initiated a year ago between the Foreign Ministers of Pakistan and India, which has certainly led to a helpful increase in communication and trade between Kashmir on the Indian side and Kashmir on the Pakistan side. Unfortunately, because of continued violence in Indian-occupied Kashmir—35 people have been killed since January—that trade and the opening of bridges and bus communications have been placed under threat.
I do not intend to get into much discussion of the general problem of terrorism. India is absolutely right to lay charges against Pakistan and individuals and organisations in Pakistan in connection with the Mumbai massacre and other assaults on the integrity of India, just as Pakistan is right to express some generalised concern about the more than half a million soldiers directly on its border—a situation that is bound to increase military tension. If for any reason we had an army of half a million Europeans stretched between Ostend and La Rochelle and if all their manoeuvres were predicated on invading England, as all the Indian army manoeuvres are predicated on invading Pakistan, we might get a bit twitchier.
I do not want to go back into the history of the 1980s and what we can now see, historically, as the disastrous decision of Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and the first President Bush to create the Islamist jihadis as part of the cold war campaign against the Soviet Union. We sowed dragon’s teeth when we gave them weapons to hit at the Soviets: the jihadis took those weapons home and have stayed in possession of them ever since, giving birth to al-Qaeda and successive waves of Islamist terrorism.
I do not want to go into the history of why, after the Russians left Afghanistan, there was no concrete western help, in particular to resettle the millions of refugees for whom Pakistan had to take some responsibility.
Mr MacShane
I shall make a bit more progress in my speech, even though my hon. Friend is one of my closest colleagues and friends.
Most estimates put the Indian army present in Jammu and Kashmir since democracy was suspended there in 1987 at between 500,000 and 600,000. The estimate of the number of people who have died largely if not exclusively as a result of the behaviour of the Indian army—there has also been terrorism on the side of Pakistani and Kashmir militants—is put at between 60,000 and 80,000. Indian soldiers and security forces operate under the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act—one of the most iniquitous laws anywhere in the world—which prevents effective prosecution of actions undertaken in the name of Indian security in the region. Those 60,000 to 80,000 people killed—the equivalent of 10 Srebrenicas—represent far more Kashmiri Muslims dying at the hands of the Indian army than all the Palestinian Muslims who have been killed in the middle east conflicts of the past decade, and yet the world is silent.
The Foreign Secretary is always ready to lecture the Israelis on human rights abuses, as we have seen recently, or Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, but on Kashmir there is complete silence. There are 32,000 widows in Kashmir, 10,000 unaccounted-for, disappeared people and 100,000 orphans as a result of Indian security forces’ handling of the problem in the past few years.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr MacShane
I will make some progress and then give way as much as possible. I am a courteous person but, please, let me make some of my points.
I am greatly concerned about the 10,000 disappeared people. In Latin America, there was great publicity about the disappeared victims of various military operations, in particular in the 1970s and ’80s, and yet the 10,000 Kashmiris who have disappeared after being taken away by the Indian authorities, never to return, get no publicity or world concern.
The Indian lobby in Britain, as we know, is one of the most influential, pervasive and well financed in the world. Pakistan also has its spokespersons, but the people of Kashmir are largely voiceless, save for some interventions, notably from my noble Friend Lord Ahmed of Rotherham. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff) is another tireless champion of Kashmir. His early-day motion 2607, tabled earlier this year, draws attention to the horrible discovery of mass graves of some 6,000 men near the line of control, the border that separates the two Kashmirs. In Europe, we recall Katyn and Lidice with horror, but on the mass graves in Kashmir, we hear barely a word.
I have tried on several occasions, both since he has been in government and when he was the Conservative foreign affairs spokesman in opposition, to get merely a single word of concern from the Foreign Secretary. Frankly, I had more chance of getting England’s footballers to score from the penalty spot than I had of getting the Foreign Secretary to speak out for the human rights of Kashmiris. The official Government position is clear. The long-standing position of the UK and what spokesmen say is that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting resolution to the situation in Kashmir, one that takes into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the UK to prescribe a solution or to mediate in finding one—
Mr MacShane
Let me finish telling hon. Members what the spokesmen say—that we welcome the positive steps taken by Pakistan and India to build trust and confidence.
Frankly, that is not good enough. In relation to many other areas of the world, we have a position and we are prepared to speak out, but on Kashmir we are utterly silent. Kashmir is the far away place in the world of which we would prefer to know nothing and of which the Government certainly say nothing. Let me be clear that the same admonition applies to the previous Government. I remember my right hon. Friend, the late Robin Cook, early in his days as Foreign Secretary, thinking that Kashmir was an issue of some concern. When he tried to raise it, however, he was abused in New Delhi and some ugly pieces were spun by Indian media and propaganda.
Mr MacShane
I shall give way in a moment. He was traduced to the point that he effectively shut up on that issue—[Interruption.] There are 21 minutes to go, so I hope that there is time for everyone to speak.
I am making a point about the present Government but, believe me, it applies also to the last Government. I see Kashmir as one of the great issues of concern for the Muslim community around the world. That is certainly true in my constituency where the problems in Kashmir are constantly reflected in the Pakistani papers printed here in Britain—the Jang, The Nation, the Dawn—and on PTV, which many of my constituents watch. British citizens hear daily reports of the unpleasant behaviour, and sometimes much worse, by the Indian security forces. The issue is of great concern to British-born citizens, and we do ourselves no good as a Parliament by pretending that it is simply something that can be solved by a little exchange of words between Islamabad and New Delhi.
Human Rights Watch has a number of recommendations. It wants to initiate
“an impartial investigation into reports that the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles Battalion in Doda has been responsible for summary executions…rape, and other assaults on villagers”,
including the disappearances to which I referred. I do not want to go into details of the rape allegations, which are particularly distressing, but it is very clear that if any of that had happened in territories near Europe or in the Balkans back in the 1990s, the International Criminal Court would have been involved. People have been sent to the court accused of far lesser crimes than those committed by the people responsible for what has happened in Kashmir on the Indian side.
Human Rights Watch says that
“all reports of extrajudicial executions, ‘disappearances’, deaths in custody, torture, and rape by security forces and unofficial parliamentary forces in Kashmir are investigated promptly by a judicial authority and those responsible should be prosecuted in civilian courts.”
It says that the Indian Government should disarm
“and disband all state-sponsored militias not established and regulated by law and prosecute members of such groups who have been responsible for extrajudicial killings, “disappearances”, assaults, and other abuses.”
It also says that the Indian Government should establish
“a centralized register of detainees accessible to lawyers and family members (something promised since 1993 but not delivered)”,
and provide much better
“police training, perhaps after consultation with international experts, on gathering adequate evidence for rape prosecutions. Medical workers who have examined and treated rape victims should be protected from abuse.”
Those recommendations all come from Human Rights Watch. Britain could play a part in that, as could the European Union.
Joseph Johnson
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this timely debate. I will be brief. As hon. Members will know, the EU and India are five years into negotiating a complex free trade agreement in which the issue of human rights will soon rear its head. Given that the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister for Europe in the previous Government, where does he stand on inclusion of an essential elements clause mandating protection of human rights in any eventual agreement? The previous Government made a particular exception for India, allowing the Commission to continue to negotiate with a view to not having an essential elements clause, one that appears in 120 other agreements around the world. Would the right hon. Gentleman recommend that the EU includes one going forward?
Mr MacShane
I certainly would. Alas, I was not Minister for Europe during the period to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Governments occasionally make mistakes, and that did not come under my purview. However, he makes a powerful point, and I hope that the EU authorities who are listening, including Baroness Ashton, will take it on board. I will send her a copy of the debate, and perhaps the Minister will write to her underlining the cross-party agreement on the point.
Mr Virendra Sharma
Will my right hon. Friend tell us where he obtained the information that 80,000 people were killed in Kashmir?
Mr MacShane
The information has been readily available on the websites of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch for a number of years. The figure is an estimate. Let us say it is 70,000 or 60,000. Even if one person is subject to disappearance, rape or torture, that is one too many, so quibbling about the numbers does the cause of justice no good.
I am very willing to condemn, and have regularly publicly condemned, terrorism emanating from Pakistan and the blind eye that Inter-Services Intelligence and the Pakistani Government, in different shapes, and the Pakistani Parliament have turned to Pakistan-generated terrorism. I have said that to leading Ministers and to General Kayani face to face in Islamabad, so my record, I hope, is reasonable on this issue. I believe that it is right that on behalf certainly of British citizens I make this point. This is not an intellectual human rights conference. I make this point on behalf of very many people in my constituency who are very concerned that we are not getting justice for the Kashmiri people.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the debate. This issue is of great concern to a large number of my constituents as well. May I underline the point that he made? We do stand accused of double standards if we give prominence—rightly—to human rights abuses in so many other places in the world, but appear silent on the vital issue of Kashmir.
Mr MacShane
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I raised the question of Yulia Tymoshenko, and the Prime Minister told me last October in the House that unless she was properly treated and released from prison, it would be an issue of grave concern to the UK. Then finally it was announced that Ministers would not go to Ukraine for the football. This Minister pointed out, quite rightly, that it was unlikely that attending the final would need to be on the agenda.
Frankly, if we make such a statement about a woman who should not be ill treated but who is alive and seeing doctors, why are we silent on Kashmir? Why are we silent on Kashmir? Why are we silent on Kashmir? That is what my constituents are saying, and I hope the Minister will address that.
Mr MacShane
I have said to all the colleagues who have written to me that I have no problem with hon. Members intervening. It is up to the Minister, because it is his time, whether he wants to allow other colleagues to come in, but certainly I acknowledge that my hon. Friend did contact me with a request to intervene.
Simon Danczuk
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on an excellent contribution on this important issue. I have visited Kashmir. There is always a lot of emphasis on discussions and talks between India and Pakistan, but does my right hon. Friend agree that what is missing is the fact that we rarely listen to the people of Kashmir themselves?
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)
I am grateful for the chance to conclude this short debate and it is a pleasure to do so under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) on giving us this opportunity. It is a slightly unsatisfactory version—sort of a Twenty20 version—of a parliamentary debate, in which the finer points are not developed as much as we would like. But it is better than having no opportunity at all.
The promotion and protection of human rights is at the heart of the Government’s foreign policy, so I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman on that central point. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has made absolutely clear our determination to pursue every opportunity open to us to promote human rights and political and economic freedom around the world.
As the Foreign Office Minister responsible for human rights, I can state with complete confidence that we do not shy away from raising human rights issues with countries where we have genuine concerns about what is happening. The Government have made a commitment to promote human rights consistently. I recommend to all right hon. and hon. Members the Government’s fairly recently published annual human rights report, an extremely comprehensive document that records the type of work that we are doing.
Stephen Pound
Does the Minister not accept that, ultimately, human rights violations can be resolved and solved only by a political agreement and that even the most frozen conflict—that is the appropriate word for the area around Kargil—can be thawed? We have on the table the Simla agreement, signed by the leaders of both India and Pakistan in 1972. Is the policy of the Foreign Office to support the implementation of the Simla agreement, which provides a way forward for both peace and human rights in this troubled area?
Mr Browne
I am grateful for the intervention. Having put on the record the Government’s unequivocal commitment to a human rights policy on a global scale, let me get to how we see the India-Pakistan relationship and the nub of this question. I will take on board the intervention that the hon. Gentleman has made.
Joseph Johnson
Will the Minister clarify where Britain stands with respect to the EU Council decision of 1995, reaffirmed in 2008, that all trade agreements and co-operation agreements should include an essential elements clause?
Mr Virendra Sharma
I thank the Minister for giving way. Other Members raised the point that there is no dialogue between the Indian Government and the Jammu and Kashmir people. I hope the Minister agrees that there is a democratically elected Government of Jammu and Kashmir, who work closely with the Indian Government. I believe that the Government recognise that. Does he agree?
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I was pleased to visit Azad Jammu and Kashmir on a private visit—Mirpur and Dadyal. I met the press club of Mirpur. Does the Minister agree that it is important that the free press of Azad Jammu and Kashmir should be able to report freely any human rights abuses, so that we get accurate reporting and information? That is what is keeping Syria on the news agenda. We need more such good-quality journalism from Kashmir.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I thank the Minister for giving way yet another time. I look forward to the answers to the interventions.
Does the Minister agree that there is a massive difference between what is going on in Jammu and Kashmir and in Pakistani-occupied Kashmir? In Jammu and Kashmir, there is free access for the press, Amnesty International and every other international body that wants access to see what is going on. In Pakistani-occupied Kashmir, what is almost a lawlessness still prevails. The human rights issues that the right hon. Member for Rotherham raised seem to be one-sided. The problems of the region as a whole should be looked at.
Mr Browne
Thank you, Mr Howarth, for allowing me to pioneer a new format for debates. I am conscious that a lot of Members want to put their core points on the record, and I was keen to give them the opportunity to do so. A number of points were raised, some of which were assertions of fact; whether those points were on England’s likelihood of progressing or something else, I am happy to stand by them.
Let me put the Foreign Office’s position on the record, and people can draw conclusions from what I say. The United Kingdom enjoys close relations with India and Pakistan; they are both long-standing and important friends of the UK. The Foreign Secretary visited Pakistan earlier this month to underline Britain’s commitment to a deep, long-term strategic relationship with Pakistan. He held wide-ranging discussions on the strength of the bilateral relationship, the importance that the UK attaches to upcoming elections in Pakistan and the UK and Pakistan’s mutual interests in promoting stability in the region. Of course, the UK enjoys a warm, forward-looking strategic relationship with India, the world’s largest democracy. We have regular contact, including when the Prime Ministers of the UK and India met at the G20 summit in Mexico last week.
We recognise the importance of a strong relationship between India and Pakistan, which is why the Government welcome the renewed engagement in recent months between India and Pakistan. We have seen a series of high-level talks this year, including a visit by President Zardari to India in April, when he met Prime Minister Singh, and we welcome new Pakistani Prime Minister Ashraf’s pledge to continue to seek better ties with India. The commitment of both leaders from both sides to improving bilateral relations is laudable, and we support it.
Substantive progress has been made in the relationship, in particular in recent steps taken by both countries to liberalise trade. We hope that both sides will take further positive steps to develop their engagement. Ultimately, however, we recognise that the relationship between India and Pakistan is one that they themselves will need to build and the pace of dialogue is for them to set.
On Kashmir, the nub of the debate, the Foreign Secretary has stated previously in the House the position of successive British Governments on Kashmir. That has been consistent—that any resolution must be for India and Pakistan to agree, taking into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. As India and Pakistan are currently making efforts to build confidence in all aspects of their relationship, it is important that they be given space to determine the scope and pace of that dialogue.
I fully understand the strength of feeling about the issue among many people in Britain, including those in the House. However, no matter how well intentioned, any attempts by the United Kingdom or other third parties to mediate or prescribe solutions would, we believe, hinder rather than advance the progress that many people wish to see.
The Government continue to monitor closely developments in Kashmir, particularly with regard to the human rights situation on both sides of the line of control. As the House knows, Kashmir has been plagued by militancy in recent years, which has undermined the security and prosperity of the Kashmiri people. We continue to call for an end to external support for violence.
It is encouraging to have seen a significant reduction in violence in Kashmir over previous years. We all recall the violent protests that occurred in Indian-administered Kashmir during the summer of 2010, when more than 100 civilians were killed and a number of security forces personnel were injured. During the unrest, there were allegations of excessive use of force by security forces against protesters and allegations that protesters themselves had used violence. We sincerely hope that the cycle of violence is now coming to an end.
We recognise that there are human rights concerns in both Indian and Pakistan-administered Kashmir. We are aware of reports from organisations such as Amnesty International on the large number of detentions in Indian-administered Kashmir, and we have been following, too, the work of the State Human Rights Commission on reports of unknown and unmarked mass graves. Prime Minister Singh has made it clear that human rights abuses by security forces in Kashmir will not be tolerated. We welcome the decision by the Indian Government to allow the UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, to pay a fact-finding visit to Kashmir in March. I understand that the State Human Rights Commission is considering how to pursue the findings.
Prime Minister Singh’s appointment of three interlocutors to engage with a wide range of interested parties to help resolve the situation in Indian-administered Kashmir was a welcome initiative. The Indian Government have recently published the interlocutors’ report, which sets out a range of confidence-building measures, including addressing some of the human rights concerns that we have discussed today. I understand that the Indian Government will take a decision on how to implement the report after a period of consultation.
As for action by the United Kingdom specifically, the officials in our high commissions discuss and raise issues in Kashmir regularly, both with the Indian and Pakistani Governments and with contacts on both sides of the line of control. Our resources from the so-called conflict pool also support work promoting human rights, conflict prevention and peace-building efforts.
Highlights of activity under the conflict pool include support for Track II dialogue to help build confidence and create a constituency for peace as well as support to strengthen civil society networks and media development to support peace initiatives. As part of UK bilateral aid to Pakistan, Pakistan-administered Kashmir also benefits from support to promote economic growth, health and education.
Joseph Johnson
Returning to a more general tack on the same theme, does the Minister agree that human rights observance should be a condition in principle of all EU trade agreements?
Mr Browne
Sorry; the hon. Gentleman did raise that important specific point. Over the past few weeks, we have seen greater co-operation at European Union level on human rights policy and big advances in how we project the consensus view from across the European Union on advancing human rights around the world. That has been an important component of EU agreements. I will write to the hon. Gentleman on the specific details with regards to the free trade agreement that has been negotiated with India. Obviously, we also want to see that agreement take effect.
Mr Browne
I will put a copy in the Library of the House of Commons.
In conclusion, it is clear that a resolution of the dispute over Kashmir must be for India and Pakistan to find, taking into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is for that reason that we should welcome the progress made of late to build confidence between the two sides, but we recognise, too, that there remains much to be done. Through our bilateral contacts with both India and Pakistan, we will continue to encourage the steps they are both taking in strengthening their relationship which, as both sides have themselves agreed, will enable discussion on long-standing bilateral issues such as Kashmir.
Alan Turing
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
It is a pleasure, Mr Betts, to serve under your chairmanship today. It is also a pleasure to see so many hon. Members from all parties and backgrounds here to speak in this important debate. I hope that, unlike many debates in this place, this will not be a party political debate, and that we can work together to commemorate an important event. Unfortunately, due to the parliamentary timetable, the House was not sitting on Saturday 23 June, on which date Alan Turing was born exactly 100 years ago.
Last week, the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart)—it is a pleasure to see him here—made an application, which I and others supported, to the Backbench Business Committee for a debate in the House to commemorate that centenary. It was a pleasure to support that application, but the Backbench Business Committee, in its wisdom, decided that that route was not the best one, and proposed this one instead. I am delighted to have secured this debate to discuss Alan Turing, and the things he did, and the things we did to him.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important and excellent debate. Does he agree that although this is an excellent forum for discussing the achievements of Alan Turing, it would be good to see more great scientists celebrated on the Floor of the House?
Dr Huppert
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. She is, of course, right. She and I both work to try to promote science, technology and engineering in the broader sense. It is a shame that in this country we do not always recognise scientists—the Clerk Maxwells as much as the Alan Turings. There have been a few links with the House: I have previously spoken to the hon. Lady about one of my predecessors, Isaac Newton, who was the Member of Parliament for Cambridge university. His contributions in the scientific field were perhaps greater than his political contributions. I hope that we will be able to mark the contributions of people in the academic and scientific fields in the years to come.
We have now the opportunity to debate a truly remarkable man and, sadly, a truly depressing chapter in British history. Before doing so, I want to mention Professor S. Barry Cooper of the Turing centenary advisory committee. He has worked tirelessly to spur this debate, and to run a number of events throughout the country to commemorate the life of Alan Turing.
I also want to thank the library of King’s college, Cambridge, which has been a fantastic resource. Alan Turing was a fellow there, as well as a student, and it continues to preserve and promote the life and times of that exceptional man, and his contribution to the modern world. We will not have time today to cover everything that he did, and I invite hon. Members to come and visit the wonderful library at King’s if they wish to know more.
Last Saturday, people throughout the world, including the good people at Google who changed their doodle for the day to a Turing machine, celebrated the centenary of Alan Turing’s birth. The purpose of today’s debate is to contribute to those celebrations, to mark them with our parliamentary brand, and to draw the Government’s attention to the need for us to remember and to commemorate his life in further ways.
In Turing’s famous 1950 article, “Computing Machinery and Intelligence”, which set out the famous Turing test—the test of a machine’s ability to exhibit human behaviour, he concluded that we could see only a short distance ahead, but that we could see plenty there that needs to be done. I suspect that politicians of all colours agree with that statement. If one phrase encapsulates his thinking, his brilliance, and the tragic circumstances in which he was forced to live and die, it is that. He looked at the world around him, exposed what was in front of him, and set a generation of scientists and mathematicians down paths that have changed our world. The tragedy is that no amount of intelligence or foresight could insulate him from a society that was determined to suppress him, and a country that so cruelly mistreated him. Today, we have an opportunity to honour his life and his achievements. One hundred years after his birth, we have a chance to try to put right what the country got so badly wrong.
A citizen of the world from an early age, Turing was born in India before boarding in England. His intellect was recognised very early, and by 16 he was reading Albert Einstein and extrapolating from his work. In 1931, he matriculated at King’s college, Cambridge, having won an open scholarship to study mathematics. By 1935, he had a first-class degree and a fellowship there. He was just 22. In the following year, he published his first seminal article.
I am sure that many hon. Members would like a complete run-down of how the Turing machine revolutionised the theory of computation, and the understanding of mathematical proof through hypothetical computing machines. We are limited by time, and other hon. Members want to speak, so I will refrain from referring to everything that Turing tried to do, but his contribution to human knowledge before reaching his 25th birthday was profound.
After the publication of Turing’s article, he was awarded a visiting fellowship at Princeton, and obtained his PhD. But it was during the war that he first began to have a tangible effect on our country and the world around him. The day after the UK declared war on Germany, he reported to Bletchley Park. He had previously worked for a year part-time for the Government’s code and cipher school, the predecessor to GCHQ. When war broke out, he dedicated himself to the defence of a country that took him for granted.
Turing was immediately assigned to the cryptanalysis of Enigma, the most crucial code-breaking programme of the war effort. So valuable was his contribution to the security services that the papers remained secret and were released only in April this year. They show just how many breakthroughs Turing made in the race to break Enigma. A fascinating question is whether any other human could have made the contributions he made at that time. He was awarded an OBE for that work, but his work remained top secret.
Turing’s contribution to cryptography had a profound impact on the war, but perhaps his most lasting contribution was to computing as a result of his work on cryptography, and the articles he wrote in peacetime. Phrases such as the Turingery technique, the electro-mechanical bombe, and the Banburismus process are hardly commonplace, but they revolutionised our understanding of computers and what they could make possible. Turing’s work directly influenced the creation of the world’s first programmable digital electronic computer. Another fascinating example of which we should take heed is how hard it is to work out what the results of research will be when it starts.
After the war, Turing began work on the automatic computing engine, the pilot of which influenced the construction of the first commercially available computers: English Electric’s DEUCE and the American Bendix G-15. For those achievements, we owe him a huge debt
In the late 1940s, Turing moved to Manchester, and turned his attention to more abstract work in mathematics. Having revolutionised cryptanalysis and modern computing, he then turned to the philosophy of computing and came up with ideas for problems that are still unsolved today. Part of his 1950 paper, to which I referred earlier, created the Turing test. It was designed to ask how to tell the difference between a computer and a human. The test is, essentially, whether someone can reliably tell, without seeing what is happening, whether they are communicating with a computer or a human. Online communications provide a number of examples of it sometimes being hard to tell what is responding but, so far, no artificial intelligence can reliably pass the Turing test.
A version of the test is used daily by millions of people around the world. CAPTCHA—the completely automated public Turing test to tell computers and humans apart—is the catchy name for those words that are typed on websites to show that someone is a human and not a computer program. The theory behind that—it is used to secure things across the web every day—is directly influenced by his article 62 years ago.
Turing’s contribution to our understanding of artificial intelligence is no less significant. His idea about how to tell whether a computer can “think” is vital to the modern theory of artificial intelligence. That is not all. In his later years, he worked in mathematical biology—a field that I used to dabble in when I was doing research—and particularly morphogenesis, which is how embryos develop into the organisms they eventually become. He also worked on Fibonacci numbers in plant structures, and his general contribution to the concept of pattern formation is still considered central to the field and has applications in how zebra patterning occurs and many other fields. Again, no one could have foreseen from Turing’s early work where it would lead today, and what would come out of it.
We could spend hours of parliamentary time talking about every one of Turing’s achievements, and I freely admit that I have missed out a huge number of them. Perhaps a full six-hour debate, and many volumes of Hansard, would be enough to list everything that he did, but I hope that the brief summary that I have given provides some tribute to him. But we are not here just to mark Turing’s scientific achievements, or his contribution to the defence effort during the war. Whenever we talk about him, we must discuss how he was treated towards the end of his life, and how he was forced out of the world to which he had contributed so much.
In 1952, Alan Turing was convicted of gross indecency under the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885. His crime was admitting to a relationship with another man. The way it came about is particularly sad—it should never have come about in any way—in that the relationship with the man was, in fact, with somebody who tried to burgle his house. When he reported it, the police became interested in the crime that he had committed by having a relationship with a man in the first place.
When he was convicted, under the laws of the time, he was given a choice of imprisonment or a “cure”—the rather barbaric cure of chemical castration. Faced with two awful choices, he chose the latter, perhaps in the hope that he could continue to live a meaningful life with his liberty at least intact. None the less, he lost his security clearance—essential to all the work that he was doing—his work and even the freedom to discuss his work with colleagues. He lost his right to live his life.
Two years later, in 1954, he died from cyanide poisoning at the age of 41. We have no idea what he could have achieved if he had lived a fuller life. One of the great tragedies is that we did not even give him the honour of a conclusive inquest to understand exactly what went on. We still debate, including in the past week, the circumstances of his death and whether it was suicide or an accident. Some suggest that he created a deliberately ambiguous scenario in which to die. We do not know; we did not check at the time.
A number of tributes commemorate him. His code-breaking machine was commemorated on a stamp. Last week a new plaque was unveiled in my constituency at King’s college, and there are others, which I did not have the chance to look at, in Manchester and on his childhood home. There are academic conferences, symposiums and colloquiums galore, as well as workshops, public lectures, films, art, opera, plays, books, concerts and poetry. The Olympic torch bearer in Manchester ran past his statue to mark it. There has been some interesting discussion about the coming Olympics; I mentioned Turing in the parliamentary links day on the link between science and sport, but I had not realised then that he had entered the Olympic marathon trials in 1948 and come fifth. That would be a challenge for most scientists, computer scientists or engineers today, and one which I will certainly not try to replicate. Nature ran a full issue about Turing. Overseas, Obama has spoken about him and how important he was.
In 2009, the previous Government issued an official apology. I pay tribute to that and am grateful that it happened, but there is still a lack of official recognition for one of the greatest Britons who ever lived, whom Time magazine selected as one of the hundred most important people of the 20th century. That lack of recognition is particularly apparent when we think that it was our Government who so cruelly mistreated Turing and who failed to treat him correctly. We owe it to him to do something further on the centenary.
I accept that the way he was treated as a homosexual was not unusual to him. There is a long history in this country of treating homosexuals in a way that we would now consider completely and utterly unacceptable. I am pleased that the Government have taken steps on the broader issues, with, for example, the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which allows the Secretary of State to disregard criminal convictions for homosexual acts by consenting adults. I am pleased that that will now happen to ensure that a person will not be considered as having committed, been charged with, prosecuted for or convicted of a criminal act for such activities. It is important because there are people still alive who bear comments on their Criminal Records Bureau checks about activities that we would certainly not consider criminal now.
There is a lot that we should be doing. The centenary is a good opportunity to mark our debt to Alan Turing and the errors we made as a country. I am sure that hon. Members will talk in more detail about the need to do that. There is a call, supported by a very large petition, for him to be granted a full pardon. It would not change his death or the way that we stopped his work from continuing, but it would be an important sign that the Government accept that Governments made a mistake in the past. It is important to many people who are still affected by the historical decisions that we made.
It is also suggested that Turing be commemorated on a banknote. I accept that banknotes are not the responsibility of the Minister, but I hope that he will listen to that proposal and pass it on to those who print the banknotes. Those two simple acts would make amends for the way in which British society treated such a great man, and embed his story and work into our national consciousness. I hope that the Minister will agree to those suggestions.
Chi Onwurah
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way a second time. I agree with the points he makes so eloquently and movingly. Does he agree that Alan Turing, given his life and achievements, would be a much better name, and indeed brand, for technology and innovation centres, which have been named “catapult centres”? Catapults are rather sloppy bits of engineering that have the habit of destroying what they project. I will be writing to the Secretary of State to make that suggestion. Will the hon. Gentleman support it?
Dr Huppert
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. I share the concern about catapults. The idea of a catapult satellite centre seems particularly odd. That is not how I would choose to launch a satellite into orbit. It is worth saying that from an energy efficiency perspective, trebuchets—a slight variant on catapults—are extremely impressive, so there is some interesting technology in that area.
I share her concerns about the name. There is an issue with technology and innovation centres. We could talk about them for about 10 minutes, I suspect. Hermann Hauser, the constituent of mine who came up with the proposal for technology and innovation centres, suggested “Clerk Maxwell centres”. I know that the Select Committee on Science and Technology suggested “Turing centres”. I do not mind which it is. There is a strong case for both and I hope that we can honour both. Either would, in my view, be better names than “catapult centres”. I suspect that renaming scientific research centres is not part of the Minister’s purview, but I hope that he will look carefully at the other suggestions made and, whatever hon. Members suggest, I hope that he will pass them on to the appropriate Ministers for consideration.
Whatever the response, I hope that the Government will take the chance to recognise that in the centenary of Turing’s birth we have the opportunity to celebrate someone whose contribution to our society and world has hitherto not been sufficiently marked. He showed the world the infinite potential of human ingenuity and the machines that that ingenuity could make possible. He changed our world and our society. He showed the world how machines could help humans, and we treated him in the most inhuman way. I look forward to a full debate from hon. Members, who I thank for coming to mark such a great man, and to a full response from the Government. We owe him no less than our full discussion.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing the debate and making such an excellent and rounded speech about Alan Turing. I suspect that the Hansard reporters are greatly relieved that the hon. Gentleman did not go into more technical detail on some of his papers.
Before I move on to the main body of what I want to say, may I say that the hon. Gentleman is right? The Science and Technology Committee is disappointed that the catapult centres were so named, rather than “Turing centres”. “Catapult centre” is a ludicrous name. If there is anything that this debate should do, it is to integrate the story and memory of Turing more into our national consciousness. The name would be one way to do that. I have certainly tried to do it in Manchester.
I am not usually given to hagiography and apologies or pardons to dead people; they have their place, but I do not see the point. Such is the extraordinary story and tragedy of Turing, however, given both the distinction of his mathematical and scientific mind and the tragic end he came to, that almost anything we can do to commemorate him is worth doing. People may disagree, but of all British scientists, Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell and Alan Turing are probably the most distinguished. There is tough competition. In Manchester alone, we have John Dalton, Joule and Thomson. One can go round the country to see what a fantastic scientific pedigree it has. In my reading of Turing, what he did and the depth in which he thought about problems puts him in that league of the most distinguished.
I really want to make some personal comments about Turing. Although I came from Manchester, I had never heard of him until I was reading a popular book on science and mathematics; it was really more about Gödel and Hilbert. I looked up Turing’s name and found his story, which was so devastating that I set about doing two things.
At the time I was leader of Manchester city council, which was at the centre of the campaign against clause 28 and of anti-discrimination policies across the board. In almost every speech I made, whether it was about the age of consent or clause 28, I told the story of Turing. It was one way of bringing him into evidence. In doing that, I came across a number of people who had worked with him. I was privileged to talk to them about his work and how they had been affected by the man himself and the quality of his work.
I will tell one anecdote about Dame Kathleen Ollerenshaw, who was one of those people. Hon. Members may not have heard of her, but she was a distinguished mathematician who led the Conservative group on Manchester city council for a period in the 1970s—which, I am pleased to say, was a pretty thankless task. She had chosen not to go to Bletchley Park during the war because she was having children, but she worked with Turing at Manchester university after that.
What happened to Turing had a huge impact on the 1970s. In the mid-1970s, there was a free vote on Manchester city council to set up the first gay centre in the country. The Liberals, as they were then, were not represented, but the Conservative party and Labour were and both had their bigots. Dame Kathleen’s experience of knowing Turing meant that she was one of the leading Conservatives who voted for the centre, which was not a popular position in the party at the time. There is a straight line running back to that vote in respect of some of the progressive policies that we followed in Manchester.
I did what I could. I supported the raising of funds for the statue of Alan Turing in Sackville park, and we held a moving commemoration there last winter with the author of the main biography of Turing. At one stage, I was also given the delegated power to name the road that now runs past the Etihad stadium in east Manchester. I took the opportunity, against competition from a lot of other names, to call it Alan Turing way. That was in line with every other great scientist who has worked in Manchester, and some who have not, who have had roads, streets and buildings named after them. I was proud to have done that.
I want to finish by saying that the brutality of what happened to Turing at the end—it was more typical of what happened in the 1950s—makes us realise that, although there is little progress in some parts of our society, we have moved on in other areas; we have become much more humane than we were then. I recently spoke at a memorial service in Manchester for a gay activist who, sadly, had died. After the campaigning he had been through in the 1970s and 1980s, he was astonished to find that as he was dying the Cabinet had a policy in favour of gay marriage. It was an extraordinary transition in British society.
I have mentioned a number of great British scientists with whom Turing is comparable, but there is another scientist of a much older vintage who reminds me of him. Archimedes used his profound scientific knowledge to invent a number of instruments with which to defend his city in exactly the way that Turing helped this country to survive and win the second world war. Estimates vary on how much impact Turing’s work had, but he could have saved many hundreds of thousands of lives and shortened the war by two years. When we have a very great scientist who is comparable with Archimedes, we should all work hard to commemorate him, whether it is on bank notes, buildings or roads. His is a profound and sad story.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing this debate and on his full and eloquent tribute to a man whom I regard as a national hero. I am glad that we have this opportunity to pay a tribute to his life and work and to debate the controversial issue about his crime. It is significant that we have this 100-year anniversary in which we can talk about what he contributed both in terms of his work in the war and his ongoing academic work at Cambridge and Manchester. I am glad that Members from those cities are attending this debate.
In the latter part of my speech, I will talk about the issue of a pardon. However, I want to begin by highlighting Alan Turing’s great achievements. My own connection and interest in him and his work is through Bletchley Park, which I am lucky to have in my Milton Keynes South constituency. The comment of the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer)—that he did not know about Alan Turing’s work until relatively recently—is significant, because it mirrors what has happened to Bletchley Park itself.
After the war, very few people knew what went on at Bletchley Park. I have met some of the code breakers who worked there, including a husband and wife team who did not know what the other was doing, such was the secrecy of the work. No one is to blame for the fact that for many years after the conclusion of the war, there was no recognition of the work that went on there. The code breakers all signed the Official Secrets Act. Much of the work that they were doing was still of significance at the advent of the cold war. It is not surprising, therefore, that not much was known about it.
Only relatively recently has there been rightful publicity and commemoration of the importance of the work at Bletchley Park. I want to put it on the record that I am full of praise for the current chief executive of Bletchley Park Trust, Iain Standen, and his predecessor, Simon Greenish, who have done an enormous amount of work to save the site in the first place, because it is literally falling to bits in places, and also to turn it into a major heritage site on the computing and wartime code-breaking side where people locally, nationally and internationally can come and learn about the work that was done there.
My hon. Friend mentioned that for many years, Turing’s work was not known outside very narrow academic circles. Last summer, I had the pleasure of bringing a family friend, a professor of artificial intelligence at Carnegie Mellon university in Pittsburgh, to Bletchley Park. For him, it was like coming to see the holy grail; the first academic paper on artificial intelligence was there. It is, in academic communities, a significant exhibition.
The fight to get the Turing papers at Bletchley Park is an interesting story. “Big society” is a phrase that is much debated and much maligned, but the story of the Turing papers is an interesting example of how different parts of the community can come together. The papers were being put up for auction at Christie’s and there was a real risk that they would be lost overseas. But through a combination of a grant from the national lottery, a generous donation made privately by Google and thousands and thousands of individuals making small contributions, the money was raised to save the papers.
There is a splendid exhibition of the papers and about Turing more generally at Bletchley Park. Putting on my “tourist information” hat, I encourage Members to visit. If they go to the constituency of my hon. Friend to look at the King’s college library, they can quickly pop over to Milton Keynes to visit Bletchley Park. When we get our east-west rail link, they will be able to do so in double-quick time, but that is another matter.
I want to remind the House about the significance of the work that Turing did at Bletchley Park with his code-breaking team. The German Enigma codes were the backbone of the German military intelligence system. It was thought that they were unbreakable. The odds against anyone who did not know the settings for the Enigma machines cracking the codes were 150 million million million to one, but Turing managed it through his own brilliance, that of his team and his construction of the Turing bombe, the machine that helped to speed up the deciphering process and that substantially reduced the odds against breaking the codes.
It is well documented and argued by historians that Turing’s work in cracking the Enigma codes, and thus understanding German military movements, certainly shortened the war by up to two years. Indeed, it is not an exaggeration to say that the outcome of the war might have been very different if that information had not been gathered. How many lives did that information save, both among the armed forces—Army, Air Force and Navy people in combat—and among the citizens in British cities that were being bombed? For all the people who were butchered in the Nazi extermination camps, how many more hundreds of thousands of people would have perished if the war had been lengthened or the Germans had won? That is the significance of Alan Turing’s work. He was a hero and it is absolutely right that we pay tribute to his work.
My hon. Friend has said that there are conferences up and down the country in honour of Turing; there is one at Bletchley Park this weekend. There are statues and parks named after him, and scientific buildings may be renamed after him. All these things can be done.
I also want to echo the campaign to have Turing recognised on the new £10 note. I know that it is not quite within the Minister’s gift to do that, but I want to put my support for that campaign on the record. There is an e-petition in support of the campaign and I understand that it has more than 16,000 signatures at the moment; even more may have been added since I last looked, but 16,000 is itself a substantial number.
As well as being a very visual commemoration of Turing and his achievements, putting his image on a bank note would be quite a neat way to pay tribute to him. That is because modern bank notes are designed in such a way that they cannot be forged; their code has to be unbreakable. It would be very neat that a code-breaker should lend his face to a bank note. It might be a case of poacher turned gamekeeper, but it would be a neat way of paying tribute.
As my hon. Friend also mentioned, the biggest thing that we can do as a country to honour Turing’s name and his achievements is to clear his name of the so-called “crime” for which he was convicted. I echo the praise for the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), for giving an apology to Turing; that was absolutely the right thing to do. But it was only a step in the right direction. There is certainly an appetite among the public to do more. There is another e-petition to clear Turing’s name, which at the last count had more than 35,000 signatures.
Since raising this matter in the House on a number of occasions, I have received many letters and e-mails, from people locally and across the country, expressing support for clearing Turing’s name. I have not received one letter or representation saying that his name should not be cleared. If the House will indulge me for a minute, I will read out a small paragraph from one of the letters that I received, from a couple—Mary and Alan Preen. They wrote:
“At one of the most difficult times in this country’s history, Alan Turing did not shirk or fail his country when asked to serve. However, the same cannot be said of his country, for at the hour of Turing’s need we failed him totally. We are utterly ashamed of the attitude and actions of our country to hound a hero of the free world to his death.”
That is very profound and absolutely right, and most of the other letters that I have received about Turing have expressed similar sentiments.
I have raised the issue of a pardon for Turing or clearing his name in some way in the House on a number of occasions. Thus far, it has been resisted by the Government, on two grounds: first, that it would create a precedent in law; and secondly, that however much we now dislike the reason for which he was convicted, it was according to the law of the land at the time, he was fairly tried and there was no accusation of a mistrial or anything like that. I understand those arguments, but I do not accept them. I will make three points briefly to explain why.
First, as my hon. Friend mentioned, the Government have made welcome steps in this area, through the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, whereby a person who has been convicted of or received a caution for an offence under section 22 or section 13 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956, or earlier corresponding Acts, can apply to have that conviction or caution disregarded. That is absolutely right, and I would argue that it is a logical step to extend that legislation and allow it to be applied posthumously.
Secondly, there is precedent for taking steps to clear the names of people who have been convicted in the past. In 2006, more than 300 soldiers who were shot for military offences in world war one received a group pardon. I do not want to debate today whether the proposed pardon for Turing should apply to all people posthumously who were convicted of a similar crime; that is a debate for another occasion. But the fact that a wrong done to those who were serving their country has been righted surely creates a precedent for pardoning Alan Turing.
Thirdly and finally, and I hope the House will forgive me for making this point, even if there is a fear about setting a legal precedent, surely it is not beyond our ingenuity to create some law that clears Alan Turing’s name, and his only. If the fear of setting a legal precedent is a real and genuine one, surely our collective wisdom can overcome it. I am not a lawyer, but there are many lawyers in Parliament; my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), who is sitting very close by in Westminster Hall today, is a lawyer. Surely he and his legal colleagues could devise some wording in law to clear Alan Turing’s name.
I also want to point out that in the other place Lord Sharkey is preparing a Bill on this issue. I wish him every success in getting it through and if it proceeds to the Commons, I will certainly heartily support it. I urge the Government at least to find the time so that his Bill may be fully debated in both Houses. That is within the Government’s gift, and it would give Parliament a chance to express its view on this matter.
The debate about clearing Alan Turing’s name will go on, but for now I will conclude by remembering and paying tribute to his life and work. He was a national hero; he saved thousands, if not millions, of lives; and he pioneered the computing age, on which we all now rely.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I begin by adding my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing this important debate at this particular time, to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Alan Turing’s birth. The level of detail about Alan Turing’s life that he went into suggests to me that schools could do worse than look at today’s Hansard and use it as a history lesson on the life of one of our greatest ever scientists.
I also pay tribute to my noble Friend Lord Sharkey, for his work in the other place, and to my colleague on the Transport Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who has done an awful lot and was trying to push the debate as well. I should pay tribute, too, to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who did an awful lot in his time as leader of Manchester city council to push the case of Alan Turing.
Interestingly, at a 100th birthday celebration at the weekend, the lord mayor, who lives close to the road that was renamed Alan Turing way when the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton was council leader, recalled that, when it was renamed, many people in the area asked, “Who is Alan Turing?” Over time, however, the simple fact of renaming it meant people got to know about him. We may think that something is trivial and does not matter; but just renaming a road led to many Mancunians getting to know much more about Alan Turing and his life.
My final tribute is to Andy, in my office, who has done hours of work on the subject of pushing for a pardon or disregarded conviction. Often we do not give credit to the people who work for us and do research behind the scenes, in this place or our constituency offices.
I first got involved in the campaign in the previous Session, when I was contacted to support the e-petition calling for a pardon for Alan Turing, submitted by William Jones in Manchester in November. In the first two months, the petition got more than 20,000 signatures, and I agreed to take up the issue in Parliament, tabling an early-day motion. In February the campaign went to the Lords, when Lord Sharkey questioned the Minister about whether Alan Turing would be pardoned. He was informed that it would be inappropriate, because Alan Turing was fairly convicted under the laws of the time. Further parliamentary questions uncovered the fact that more than 75,000 people were convicted under the same laws between 1894 and 2004.
A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the cancellation of the relevant penalty. It does not mean that the conviction is quashed. I understand that two conditions are needed for a pardon: moral innocence and legal innocence. The view of the Government has been that since Turing was fairly convicted of what was a crime at the time, legal innocence cannot be justified.
Having failed to persuade the Government to issue a pardon, we considered the possibility of getting justice for Alan Turing through a disregarded conviction. That is probably what most people think of as a pardon, because it wipes the slate clean. It means that the records are changed, so that it is as though the person did not commit the offence, and was not charged, prosecuted or sentenced.
The original campaign was for a pardon, but actually a disregarded conviction would be better. That might have been possible—and my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South talked about this—through amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. However, it proved impossible, partly because the slow workings of Government meant that we were unable to get agreement, with i’s dotted and t’s crossed, to including it in existing measures.
We have not given up. There are plans, as my hon. Friend mentioned, to introduce a private Member’s Bill in the Lords. I understand that that is due to be presented in the next few days, and we hope to get Government support for it. In the meantime, in the Commons, I have submitted a further early-day motion in this Session, to commemorate Turing’s birth 100 years ago:
“That this House commemorates Alan Turing on his birthday, 23 June, for his many mathematical and scientific breakthroughs including the vital contribution he made to Britain's war effort by inventing the machine that broke the Enigma code; regrets that following his years of national service, he received a criminal conviction for having a sexual relationship with another man; deplores the fact that he was forced to take oestrogen therapy or be sent to prison if he did not comply; expresses profound sorrow that he went on to take his own life on 8 June 1954 at the age of just 41 years; recognises that so far over 34,000 people have signed the e-petition on the 10 Downing Street website calling for Alan Turing to be pardoned; calls therefore for a posthumous or disregarded conviction to be granted; and acknowledges the huge and unnecessary suffering that he and so many other gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people have had to endure.”
I hope that colleagues on both sides of the House will support the motion—in spirit if not by signing it, if they do not or cannot sign EDMs. I hope that the motion will help to ensure that in 2012 we can put right the wrong that was done. That is very long overdue.
Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing this important debate, which provides us with a forum in which to consider the past, draw lessons for the future, and, most importantly, pay tribute to one of the world’s finest minds.
For eight years, I served as a councillor for the ward of Little Venice in the city of Westminster. In that capacity, albeit in a small way, I was first able to pay tribute to the remarkable work and life of Alan Turing. On 23 June 1998, I was involved in the unveiling ceremony of a blue plaque on the Colonnade hotel in London, just off Warwick avenue, which denotes the house where Turing was born.
That day, appropriately, marked the 50th anniversary of the world’s first working computer, which ran in Manchester on 21 June 1948. Having undertaken a reasonable amount of research, I was stunned to learn that at the tender age of 22, while at King’s college Cambridge, Turing had developed a hypothetical mathematical device, which is commonly referred to as the Turing machine. His calculations, in turn, provided the foundation for modern computer science. His genius is unquestionable, and one can only speculate about what more, in the absence of bigotry and prejudice, that great man might have gone on to achieve.
On the day after the ceremony, 22 June 1998, the House of Commons voted to equalise the age of consent at 16. The modest ceremony at a central London hotel to mark Turing’s life and scientific prowess occurred virtually in tandem with cross-party efforts to ensure equality before the law, and equality of esteem. I hope that those two events will serve as a reminder that, whatever our political differences, we can and should agree that councils, Parliaments and Governments must seek to liberate talents and never oppress them.
In his maiden speech in June 2010, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) rightly paid tribute to the extraordinary work of Turing and the teams of code breakers at Bletchley Park, in his constituency. He did so again today, with great eloquence. It is not an overstatement to assert that the efforts and expertise engaged in cracking the German Enigma code fundamentally changed the duration, and possibly even the outcome, of the second world war.
My hon. Friend also welcomed the national apology from the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), which sought to
“right the wrong against the brilliant code breaker and mathematician”. —[Official Report, 17 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 1082.]
In 1952, as we all know, Turing was convicted of gross indecency. The courts presented him with a terrible choice: imprisonment or probation with awful conditions attached. The conviction was also to bring about a lifetime restriction on Turing. Post-war, he had an extremely high level of security clearance, as he continued to work for the Government and their agencies. The conviction was to prohibit him from working for the Government—effectively, for our country—ever again.
To avoid prison, and no doubt with the desire to continue some of his work, Turing chose probation. The probation was, however, conditional on his subjection to a course of hormonal treatments that were designed to reduce libido. He underwent a chemical castration via oestrogen hormone injections, and within two years he was dead. On 12 June 1954, he was cremated at Woking crematorium in my constituency. What a terrible waste. What a ghastly last two years, in the life of a man who had given so much to this country.
We have had a fitting debate to commemorate the centenary of the birth of Alan Turing, godfather of computer science and pioneer of artificial intelligence, whose wartime efforts at Bletchley Park were responsible for saving countless lives. He is a national hero. He deserves to be in the pantheon of national heroes. I regard it a great honour to add my voice, again, to the tributes that we have all paid him.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing the debate. I hope that Members will bear with my voice; I am a little croaky this afternoon.
The hon. Gentleman gave a very good overview of the life and work of Alan Turing, including the infamous and famous Turing test, which we all love when we log on to websites and have to type the characters. It is a nice testimony to Alan Turing that every part of our lives these days is touched by his influence. We also heard very good contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and the hon. Members for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) and for Woking (Jonathan Lord).
The word “genius” is overused—it is a little clichéd, as is “hero”. Nevertheless, it is correct to use them when talking about Alan Turing, and the millions of lives that have been saved as a result of his work. Sadly, the state’s behaviour towards him is, to say the least, shameful and needs to be put right.
I first came across Alan Turing’s work when, many years ago, I moved to a place called Milton Keynes—more specifically, to Bletchley—to take up a job with the Inland Revenue. Every morning, I walked past this huge expanse of an estate, with a high fence around it. It all seemed very strange. Curiosity being what it is, I started to inquire about what the place, Bletchley Park, was and, as Members will know, once one starts to inquire about such places, one soon develops a bookshelf lined with every book going on the subject—code breakers, Enigma and so on. It is a fascinating story, and a testimony to the incredible work done by many people, but especially by Alan Turing.
We have heard that the mission to decrypt the coded messages from the Enigma—the German military typewriter-like cipher machine—was hugely important. Turing had the ability to pit machine against machine. He produced the prototype anti-Enigma bombe, which he called Victory—I think that began in the spring of 1940—and the bombe machines effectively turned Bletchley Park into a cipher-breaking factory.
As early as 1943, Turing’s machines were cracking an estimated 84,000 Enigma messages each month—two a minute. No wonder the Prime Minister of the day called the information that came from them, “ultra”. It was ultra-important and, as I shall explain, ultra-significant.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I apologise for joining the debate late. I want to mention Alan Turing’s partner, Tommy Flowers, who made a massive contribution to the Enigma work. He was a General Post Office engineer, who put electronics into telephone exchanges. I had the privilege of meeting him in the last year of his life. We were trying to get him an honour, but he died too soon. He was the person who used the electronics and the valves. I give all credit to Alan Turing, genius that he was, but the beginning of computing would not have happened without Tommy Flowers either.
Robert Flello
I was going to mention the Colossus machine that Tommy Flowers worked on, and I will come on to it in a moment.
Turing personally broke the form of Enigma used by the U-boats that were preying on the crucial north Atlantic merchant convoys, which were full of essential supplies for Britain. Churchill’s analysts stated that Britain would soon be starving if the supplies could not get through. Turing also searched for a way to break into the torrent of messages suddenly emanating from a new, and much more sophisticated, German cipher machine. The British code-named the new machine “Tunny”, and many people have said that the Tunny teleprinter was the forerunner of the mobile phone networks that we all enjoy today.
It is probably worth pausing here. The computing power of the mobile phones that many of us have on silent in our pockets or squirreled away somewhere, is much more advanced than that of the machinery that Alan Turing, and indeed Tommy Flowers, were putting together. Even more remarkable is the fact that the likes of Tommy Flowers used GPO telephony valves, wiring and systems deliberately because they did not want to draw attention to the fact that they were building the code-breaking machines. They were constrained, therefore, because they had to base their work on the sort of equipment that was available in any telephone operating system, and that is testimony to the importance of what they did.
Turing’s breakthrough in 1942 yielded the first systematic method for cracking the “Tunny” messages, which enabled the allies to get detailed knowledge of the German strategy—and that, without doubt, changed the course of the war. It was also the seed for the sophisticated Tunny-cracking algorithms that were incorporated into Tommy Flowers’s Colossus, which was the first large-scale electronic computer. With the installation of 10 Colossus machines by the end of the war, Bletchley Park became the world’s first electronic computer facility.
Turing’s work on Tunny was the third of three strokes of genius that he contributed to the attack on Germany’s codes, along with designing the bombe and unravelling the U-boat Enigma. It has been argued that his work shortened the war by not up to two years, but anything up to four. If Turing and his group had not weakened the U-boats’ hold on the north Atlantic, the D-day landings could have been delayed by a year or longer, because the north Atlantic was the route that ammunition, fuel, food and troops had to travel to reach Britain from America.
Any such delay, of course, would have put Hitler in a stronger position to withstand the allied assault. Fortifications along the French coastline would no doubt have been stronger, Panzer armies would have been moved into place, more V2 missiles would have rained down on southern England, and on the ports and airfields, thereby supporting the invading troops. Each year of fighting in Europe is estimated to have cost an average of 7 million lives, so it would not be far off the mark to quantify Turing’s contribution as 21 million lives saved. That gives an indication of the magnitude of his work.
The hon. Member for Cambridge helpfully detailed the post-war work that Alan Turing did, and I will not delay Members by rehearsing it, but it does bring me on to the appalling circumstances of his arrest, prosecution and sentencing. One has to take stock and question why a man who had done so much to save lives—possibly 21 million, perhaps more—was treated in such a way. When one reads the books, it feels like an underhand way of investigating Alan’s life. Reading them, despite the benefit of history, I started to wonder why he was treated in such a way.
As has been mentioned, the former Prime Minister officially apologised in 2009 for how Alan Turing had been treated—I draw right hon. and hon. Members’ attention to that apology; it is worth looking at—but the campaign has rightly continued since then. Numerous commemorations and international events have been held throughout the centenary year. The Google doodle was mentioned, Royal Mail has issued a commemorative stamp and my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) drew attention to the work done with Manchester city council involving the Olympic torch and so on. Many events have taken place to recognise the fantastic work done by Alan Turing.
However, we are always brought back to the cul-de-sac that is the 1952 conviction. Hon. Members have given it a lot of thought, and work is going on in the other place on a private Member’s Bill. On legal precedent, are we as a Parliament not about setting legal precedent? Is that not our job? Is it not what we do every day in this place? We come up with new laws, improve laws, change laws and, where they are wrong, correct them. The posthumous conditional pardon in November 2006 of the soldiers shot at dawn was the right thing to do. It was absolutely correct. I am sure that even if that does not set a precedent, it might give us a clue about how to get around the issue.
I hope that Lord Sharkey’s Bill in the other place will find its way through Government time to be considered. I also hope that when the Minister replies, he will confirm that when a private Member’s Bill comes forward in this House, it will be looked on favourably by the Government. I certainly hope so. Whatever we do after this debate, one thing is certain: we must find a way to recognise and in some way pardon Alan Turing for what happened, so that we can hold him up as the hero he was.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) on securing this wholly appropriate debate during the centenary of one of the greatest Britons. I apologise if I cover a little of the same ground about Turing’s achievements. Such is their scale that, like my hon. Friend, I will be giving only headlines in the time available. I am also grateful to Alan Turing’s biographer, Andrew Hodges, for helping my officials and me to get it right. Any mistakes will be entirely mine.
The perspective of history can be a wonderful thing. Decades later, the profound legacy of a brilliant and original mind largely unknown to his contemporaries can be referenced by the President of the United States in Westminster Hall, as Alan Turing was by President Obama last year. Year by year, our understanding grows of how important his contribution has been to our society. It is an astonishing legacy of global importance. One can only feel awe at the brilliance of his intellect and admiration for the magnitude of his achievements. They throw into the sharpest relief the appalling way he was treated by his own contemporary society, a fate he shared with tens of thousands of other gay men of his era. However, the shame, anger and embarrassment properly felt by today’s society at the extreme contrast between his service and his oppression, recorded in the previous Prime Minister’s unprecedented formal apology, still leaves us wanting to find ways to atone and to recognise his awesome achievements. A number of hon. Members have expressed their desire to do so in different ways. I was delighted to learn that the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) has been able to do so by naming Alan Turing way. I am delighted that when the opportunity presented itself, it was Alan Turing whom he chose to honour.
Turing was one of the top mathematical minds of all time. He successfully applied his mathematical genius to numerous other scientific disciplines while throwing in the unique ability to combine successful practical application with brilliant theoretical understanding. Turing was a fellow of King’s college, Cambridge in 1935, and his time at Princeton from 1936 to 1938 has been appreciated properly by our American cousins. His 1936 paper invented the concept of the universal machine, which underpins the computing revolution. Turing’s success in America makes all the more impressive his decision to return to England in 1938. He understood the threat that his country faced and, critically, the contribution that he could make to our defence through encryption and code-breaking.
From 1939 to 1944, Turing was almost totally engaged in the mastery of the German enciphering machine Enigma and other cryptological investigations at Bletchley Park. Turing made a unique logical contribution to the decryption of Enigma and became the chief scientific figure, with a particular responsibility for reading U-boat communications. Turing’s contribution was undoubtedly crucial. I endorse the analysis of his importance made by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart); the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) made similar points. I do not demur from any of them.
In March 1944, Turing’s principal focus moved to encryption and voice scrambling with the Foreign Office at Hanslope Park, enabling secure communications between the Heads of Government directing the war. That work contributed directly to his development of electronic computing at the National Physical Laboratory and the university of Manchester, including the design of the Pilot ACE, the first modern computer in this country, delivered in parallel with computer development in the United States.
In his free time, Turing became a notable marathon runner, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge mentioned. But for an injury, he would probably have been invited to be a member of the British team for the London-based Olympics in 1948. His personal time of two hours and 46 minutes was barely 11 minutes slower than that of that year’s gold medallist. That rather lesser-known achievement is particularly apposite, as we are holding this debate in a year when the Olympics return to London for the first time since 1948.
Alan Turing continued to serve his country at what had become GCHQ, but after his conviction for gross indecency, he was categorised as a security risk and excluded from doing the nationally important work that must have given him great satisfaction. It is difficult to imagine the devastation that he would have experienced as his country switched from seeing him as a profound national asset to seeing him as a serious liability. By today’s standards, the security policy applied to Alan Turing seems criminally stupid, but in the atmosphere of the time—there was the defection of Maclean and Burgess, and the McCarthy witch hunts in the United States of America—it was tragically unexceptional. The atmosphere in both countries is relevant, as Turing had been an emissary to the United States in November 1942, possibly charged with assisting the Americans to address their cipher challenges and the U-boat menace then threatening their coastline. He was probably also involved in the security of transatlantic communications between Roosevelt and Churchill. That Britain possessed such impressive skills was due not least to Turing’s own efforts. Given that such extraordinary abilities existed in one man, one can but imagine the hysterics of the security apparat on both sides of the Atlantic, reinforced by the profound, ignorant and accepted commonplace prejudice of the time.
In what were to prove the final years of his life, Alan Turing used his understanding of mathematics and interest in process to develop a new and ground-breaking theory, the mathematical theory of morphogenesis: the theory of growth and form in biology. His writing on this, published in 1951, is regarded as the founding paper of modern non-linear dynamical theory. My hon. Friend might have been able to elucidate that if he had the time, but I am certainly not able to do so. Some of the theories the publication contained about the occurrence of the Fibonacci sequence in sunflowers are now being tested on a huge scale in the Manchester Turing sunflower project.
Alan Turing’s achievements have rightly earned him the description of the father of computing and artificial intelligence. As my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South and others have said, we have no way of knowing what further advances he might have made had his life not been cut short. His achievements make him utterly unique and, as such, he warrants singling out in the way that we are doing in this debate.
That his exceptional public service should have been rewarded with what appears to us to be a grotesquely unjust conviction for gross indecency has led to the question of whether our sympathy should take the form of a retrospective, posthumous pardon. I will discuss that in more detail in a moment.
That the then offence was in private, consensual and revealed to the police by Turing himself, who had been a victim of real crime, reinforces the appalling unfairness he suffered. The only victim of Turing’s “crime” was Turing himself. The first point is that the law has been changed—indeed, it was first changed 45 years ago—but the conduct that led to Alan Turing’s conviction was only deemed to no longer be an offence after Edwina Currie’s amendment became law in 1994. When Alan Turing was arrested, he is said to have stated that he expected a
“Royal Commission to legalise it”.
It has taken a very long time. Progress over the past two decades has been immense, but more remains to be done.
In fulfilment of our coalition agreement, the Government introduced the disregard provisions in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. They are designed to let individuals get on with their lives, free from having to disclose convictions for homosexual activity where it was consensual and the other person was over 16. There are certain other circumstances in which convictions for those offences have to be disclosed under vetting checks, even though the activity is no longer a criminal offence. The Act allows individuals who have such convictions or cautions to apply to the Home Office for them to be disregarded, thus removing their practical effects from their lives and allowing them to move forward without the burden that the records currently impose.
The provisions are specifically designed to give practical assistance to the living, whose daily lives and, indeed, employment prospects may be affected by the record of a conviction on the police national computer. Extending them to the deceased would be impractical and serve no purpose. In truth, we could be looking for records going back to the 1800s. In many cases, those records may not be held, or may not provide enough information to make sure that the person in question would qualify for a disregard. There is also the question of the impact that disregarding posthumous convictions would have. It would be an attempt to rewrite history. Would it involve changing officially held records? Should we destroy historical evidence of the unjust suffering that many underwent, which would hinder academic research? Those concerns apply to a general pardon of all those, living and dead, who have such convictions. That is why the Government followed the path of a disregard in the Protection of Freedoms Act.
That brings us to the question of a pardon, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge and addressed in detail by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). Free pardons under the royal prerogative of mercy were formerly the usual means of recognising that there had been a miscarriage of justice and that the convicted person was innocent. Over the past century, however, developments in legislative avenues of appeal have significantly reduced the need to resort to the royal prerogative. Generally, applicants or, in the case of the deceased, their families, have the right to appeal to the relevant appeal court and can also ask the Criminal Cases Review Commission to review their case. The grant of pardons under the royal prerogative is now extremely rare.
It is the long-standing policy not to exercise the royal prerogative of mercy where a person was correctly convicted under the laws that existed at the time. The applicant must be technically and morally innocent, as my hon. Friend has said. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South has said that we should clear Alan Turing’s name. A pardon under the royal prerogative of mercy would not actually affect Alan Turing’s conviction; only a court can quash a conviction and, in that sense, clear someone’s name.
Much as we now feel it outrageous that Alan Turing’s behaviour was treated as a criminal offence, he was guilty of the contemporary offence. To grant him a pardon under the royal prerogative would change the basis on which such pardons are normally given.
If Alan Turing were pardoned, there would be tens of thousands of other people in respect of whom demands for like treatment could be made. Those persons could include about 16,000 living individuals with convictions for homosexuality, and many times that number of deceased victims. The living can benefit from the Home Office’s recent disregard provisions, but both they and the families of those who are deceased, or others on their behalf, could seek a pardon, too.
Mr Blunt
The Department’s problem is that it is extremely difficult to make a sensible analysis that could be relied on. The living can apply to have their convictions disregarded, but I would think that more than 100,000 people have been convicted of these crimes over two centuries, so the potential scale of applications is enormous.
There is also the question of justice. The sex offences of which Alan Turing was convicted are still capable of being offences in certain circumstances where the other party was under age or the sex was non-consensual. In such circumstances, a pardon would be not only inappropriate, but wrong. The records for some older cases would no longer be available, and the way such offences were recorded would make it difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether a pardon was in fact justified. It is to avoid that problem that the Government have gone down the route of a disregard by application.
It is also worth noting that the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy has changed over time. Centuries ago it was exercised by the monarch in an unfettered way. In modern times, however, the exercise of the prerogative is not exercised by Her Majesty personally but on the advice and recommendation of a Secretary of State, and it is therefore subject to judicial oversight. Whenever someone makes qualitative judgments on such issues, the prospect of review of the reasonableness of a decision is opened up.
Robert Flello
I appreciate that the Minister is in a difficult position. The advice he received from his officials will have gone through the reasons why it is difficult to follow the routes proposed, but I wonder—I put this to the Minister in a genuine spirit of finding a way through—whether he could instruct his officials to find an alternative way to reach the same conclusion. Turning the issue on its head, perhaps the Minister will consider, at a later date, talking to his officials to ask them to find an alternative route.
Mr Blunt
It may come as a surprise to the hon. Gentleman, but Ministers in the Ministry of Justice and a number of other senior Ministers in the Government have given their personal attention to the issue. We share exactly the same desire of every hon. Member present to find a way of making atonement and recognising the unique and singular achievements of Alan Turing. The formula that the previous Administration alighted on was the formal apology from the Prime Minister. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South himself remarked, it is for Parliament to set legal precedent, and opportunities for Members of Parliament in either House to take their own measures were alluded to.
I am trying to make clear to the House the issues that every Administration have had to wrestle with, and the possible consequences of different courses of action. I assure the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members present that the matter has received the closest possible attention from Ministers and officials; it continues to do so and will continue to do so in the light of the debate today and the contributions of hon. Members.
My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South drew the parallel with the Armed Forces Act 2006, which pardoned a group of first world war servicemen, but that was itself a carefully considered response to an unusual situation. The legislation expressly leaves conviction and sentence unaffected, and specifically states that the prerogative of mercy is not affected.
It has been a privilege for me to reply on behalf of the Government in the debate. It has been of particular importance to me, because my mother served at Bletchley Park during the war. When she finally felt able to speak of her work—like everyone else of her generation, she took her duty of secrecy seriously, and it was only when watching documentaries on Bletchley Park on television that she felt that she might be able to share with her family some of her own experiences—she bore first-hand testimony to me and other members of my family of Alan Turing’s importance. The truth is, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South and my hon. Friend made clear, that everyone in the Chamber and in this country owes Alan Turing a profound debt of gratitude for our political freedom. In my case, that debt is personal, albeit indirectly.
The debate has been an excellent way in which to pay tribute to the great Alan Turing on his centenary. All of us want to find more ways of marking his enormous achievement and service to our country and of continuing to atone for the disgraceful way in which the society of the time treated him.
Lineside Vegetation (Network Rail Policy)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I am pleased to have an extra few minutes for this debate, Mr Betts. A number of colleagues have contacted me who wanted to raise local matters, either through interventions or short contributions. I assume that that is in order.
I was very pleased to have secured this debate. I applied for it because I represent Islington North, an inner city constituency that has very little open space and parkland—so we value what we do have very much indeed. Network Rail runs a number of services through the constituency, both on the north London line and the mainline from King’s Cross to Edinburgh; it is that line that I want to speak about.
A couple of weeks ago, Network Rail arrived to do what was basically some lineside vegetation maintenance work. That work, however, turned out to be quite considerable. Network Rail clear-felled and completely cleared a considerable area of lineside vegetation, including cutting down trees that had nesting birds in them. Rather ominously, the workers also had large supplies of cement and concrete with them. It was not clear what they were for.
The area of track is adjacent to the Emirates stadium and very near to one of our prized local possessions, the Gillespie park nature reserve and ecology centre, which was the result of an effective campaign 20 years ago to have the area made into a park. Local residents were annoyed and alarmed about the work for a number of reasons. First, they value their open space, the vegetation and the ecology of the area. Secondly, they were astonished at the pervasive work that was being carried out. They contacted Network Rail, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Islington borough council and me. I have to say, in praise of them, that they all worked very well together. Liberal Democrat, Labour and Green councillors and local activists held a small demonstration outside Network Rail headquarters. Eventually, after an intervention by the local authority—the police were also fully informed—Network Rail ceased doing its work.
The reason why I was concerned about the work is that London, like all major cities, has limited numbers of open spaces. We value our open spaces. We also value the ecological diversity of our city and of the United Kingdom. Railways—and there are 2,000 hectares of railway land in London—represent a very important source of biodiversity. They are a very important means by which migratory birds, animals, foxes and others travel in and out of the city, enhancing the general ecology for all of us.
If we plant a tree, it is a good thing, but a tree on its own has a rather limited benefit. Two trees together have a much greater benefit, and a string of trees form the possibility of a migratory route. Railways form that migratory route. Clearing that piece of land and breaking up that route is damaging to the ecology not just of the immediate neighbourhood but of London as a whole.
I hope that Network Rail understands that. I hope that it will also understand that we are all responsible citizens who use the railways and want them to be run safely. I recognise that leaves on the line, overhanging branches and all such vegetative growth can be damaging to the railway system and must be controlled, but that control is meant for the area immediately adjacent to the lines, not way back on the embankments. In fact, railway embankments are made more stable by the vegetation on them, and less so if they are cleared.
I wrote to Network Rail concerning the local issue. I shall quote from my own letter to the community relations adviser:
“I have today received rather alarming reports of works by Network Rail around the tracks by Ashburton Triangle, close to the Emirates Stadium. I am told that trees and other vegetation have been stripped, displacing insects, small mammals and nesting birds. This operation appears to be similar to the destruction that took place on the Drayton Park sidings last July.
I should not need to remind Network Rail that these strips of land provide a vital wildlife corridor linking the Borough’s few green spaces—
I cite some of them, before continuing:
“Whilst I appreciate that Network Rail has to manage rail sidings and needs access points to the tracks, I consider such wanton devastation without reference to the local community to be quite unforgivable.”
I referred in my letter to an incident that happened last year. After that, there were discussions and meetings between the local authority, local environmental activists and the ecology sector, and an agreement was reached with Network Rail that it would in future inform the council and appropriate local agencies when it planned to do work and that it would plan its work in a way that did not destroy nesting habitats and sites. June is still clearly the bird-nesting season—someone only needs to watch the excellent “Springwatch” on the BBC to know that.
I got a reply—very rapidly, I have to say—from the route managing director for LNE, the London north-eastern line:
“We removed vegetation in the Drayton Park area (consisting of buddleia, brambles, shrubs and young trees) up to 10 metres from the railway line”—
that is a considerable distance.
“In addition, we cleared vegetation from the top of the embankment, including the area surrounding the substation. These works were part of operating a safe and efficient railway. A daily visual check for nesting birds was undertaken”—
it was not undertaken efficiently, because there is photographic evidence of nests being destroyed.
“The work at Holloway involved the removal of vegetation up to 15 metres from the railway”—
that is nearly 50 feet from the line.
“I understand this involved the removal of shrubs and a number of trees”—
I went to visit the site last weekend, and the trees removed were pretty substantial.
“We also cleared some vegetation to the boundary line and behind the overhead line foundations…Clearly there was no intent here to do anything other than manage our railway requirements. Given the concerns expressed, I have postponed all the current vegetation clearance in this area with immediate effect.”
I am pleased that Network Rail has postponed the clearance with immediate effect, and thank it for doing so, but it should never have done such work in the first place. It should have operated in a way that is synonymous with looking after our local environment.
I want an undertaking from Network Rail, and I look forward to the Minister’s being able to get that undertaking. Network Rail should understand the terms of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which protects nesting birds and sites of special environmental and scientific interest, one of which is included in where we are discussing. Network Rail should be fully aware of the need to work with and not against local authorities and local people, because we value such sites.
When I raised the issue, I was surprised at the number of people who contacted me from all over the country who have had similar experiences. Colleagues present today have been told of similar experiences in their own constituencies, and their own experiences were then broadly similar to mine.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on obtaining the debate, which could be packed out because, sadly, there is an “A to Z” of victims throughout the country. In my patch, Winchmore Hill was among the first victims. After an experience similar to his, we were assured of notice, but notice was not given, so Grange Park has become one of the most unfortunate victims of what I call Network Rail’s environmental vandalism and neglect of the local environment, with the destruction of a great swathe of trees and natural habitat—way beyond the immediate area concerned with mitigating safety risks.
I understand that there is no legal requirement on Network Rail to consult with residents on maintenance work, because it is just part of the operational licence to mitigate safety risks. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need properly to protect the local environment and to ask the Minister how we can ensure that Network Rail is held properly to account, and is open and honest about its plans? It is a prolific and persistent offender that needs to be brought to account. We must ensure that its responsibilities are, yes, to mitigate safety, but also to protect the wider local environment.
Jeremy Corbyn
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I understand his concern. I have seen the railside areas in Winchmore Hill, which are a fantastic reserve for natural life and should be protected and preserved.
In January, the London Assembly’s environment committee produced an interesting document, “On the right lines? Vegetation Management on London’s Railway Embankments”. It is an all-party document. The chair of the committee was Murad Qureshi, and it included contributions from Green, Conservative and Liberal Democrat members. It made some good and helpful proposals, pointing out:
“Local people…contacted the Committee about the level of information and communication provided by line operators”,
which is an ongoing problem. It also said—it rather surprised me—that
“Both Network Rail and Transport for London seek to give at least one month’s advance warning…but apply two weeks as minimum. However, they don’t monitor complaints specifically relating to prior notification of works.”
I think they should do that. I suspect that what I have picked up from active and responsible people in my constituency has been picked up all over the country by people in a similar situation, such as the constituents of the hon. Gentleman.
The committee is also calling for a
“standardised written engagement processes with local communities”
to be improved to
“give more detail and a clearer rationale to help the general public…understand and accept the operators’ proposals of line-side work.”
Furthermore, it says:
“Several residents and boroughs have reported concern about the level of communication and information offered by the helplines run by Transport for London and Network Rail. Managing line-side land is usually beyond the scope of local authority guidelines or strategies; as a result, boroughs often refer residents with enquiries or complaints to these helplines”.
That is not the case in Islington, because the council engages very much with local residents, Network Rail and Transport for London on those matters.
In summary—I want others to be able to contribute to the debate—I put on the record my thanks to the local people who live in the Drayton Park area of Islington for their assiduous work in ensuring that, in addition to having Gillespie park, we protect the natural environment alongside the railways.
I want Network Rail to understand that the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 means something. It is there for a purpose. It is there because, as a nation, we value nesting birds, our biological diversity and the ecology in London that is improved by the natural corridor of linesides. Network Rail must manage the railway, and they must do so safely, but there is no need to clear 10, 15 or 20 metres back from the line to do that. If it is cheaper for it to clear-fell once every five years, that is a wrong policy. It should carry out annual maintenance and annual maintenance checks. That is what I want it to do.
When the Minister responds, I hope that she will acknowledge the work that has been done by many local authorities, including mine. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds drew the matter to our attention, and I hope that she will seek a meeting with Network Rail so that it can be acquainted with the strong views that we in the House hold about the preservation of our natural environment and our belief that railways have a part to play in that.
I say all that as someone who is passionately pro-railway. I am not making a criticism of the railways; my criticism is of a specific management decision and a specific management method that Network Rail has used when it should be doing something much more environmentally sensitive.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I thank the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) for securing this important debate because, like many others, this is a big issue in my constituency. Many people are deeply concerned about the fact that there seems to be no way of getting real dialogue with Network Rail, or proper redress when things go wrong.
I want to raise two points. First, the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members have stressed the importance of Network Rail’s consulting residents, and it is important that they do so in an up-front way. A problem in Brighton was that it circulated a letter to some, but not all, residents, the headline of which was something like “Vegetation Management”. That sounds like a nice bit of pruning from time to time; it does not sound like clear-felling trees, which is what it ended up being. The letter was rather misleading for people when they first saw it, and the consultation must be very clear in its intent.
Secondly, I have a question for the Minister. Where is the real oversight of the impact of Network Rail’s policies? A few weeks ago, I submitted a parliamentary question to the Department for Transport, asking what information the Department holds in relation to things such as environmental assessments and community consultations. I also asked what estimate there was of the number of trees that had been felled in the past five years, and during bird breeding seasons; on how many occasions British Transport police had investigated complaints about tree-felling; and what estimate had been made of the total area of trees to be felled in the coming five years. I had a very short reply, which essentially said that the Department does not keep that kind of information because it is the business of a private company.
I then asked similar questions of Network Rail and received a very unhelpful letter, which pointed out things such as:
“trees grow in soil, which is the naturally occurring residue from thousands of years of weathering of the underlying strata.”
Most of us know that trees grow in soil and that, from time to time, for serious safety reasons, they need to be felled, but the letter did not answer the underlying questions about when and why Network Rail takes decisions on whether to prune or cut down, how often it plans to do that in the future and the level of consultation it plans to hold with local residents. For many people, particularly in urban areas, the trees around the railway are a vital part of the green space, and they care about them deeply.
Notwithstanding the fact that safety must take priority, I am concerned that Network Rail is acting far too swiftly—from a cost perspective and not from a genuine safety perspective in many cases. I would like to hear from the Minister what action we can take to try to hold Network Rail to greater account.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I want to make just a few comments. This is very much the debate of the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), and we want to hear from the Minister.
People up and down the country have been asking that very same thing: how can we properly hold Network Rail to account? In my constituency, vegetation management—a euphemism employed in relation to the Winchmore Hill embankment—was used to fell trees and habitat. Network Rail was only really cajoled into doing any assessment in relation to the bats in one of the trees. That was the only statutory obligation to do any kind of formal environmental assessment. That happened repeatedly.
I got assurances that the company would consult, and notify me of any further works on the lines, and then—lo and behold—Grange Park suffered huge environmental destruction. The area is called Grange Park, but the word “park” might as well be taken away considering what happened. It is extraordinary and desperate how ancient trees were felled, never to be replaced. One can see only the visible destruction of the trees, but natural habitat was also lost. People’s view was completely destroyed by Network Rail’s actions.
After public meetings and a lot of cajoling and hard work on the part of active residents and myself, the new Network Rail chief executive, David Higgins, took his responsibility seriously and met with me for a long time. It is a credit to him that he showed respect and concern, accepted what had happened and apologised. He stated in a letter to me in June 2011:
“Network Rail takes its social responsibilities seriously. Clearly there are lessons we can learn about how we engage with communities when we need to undertake intrusive works. Although consultation in formal terms is not practicable as we will often have little room to digress from the engineering solution being proposed, many misunderstandings can be obviated through early community engagement.”
Those are good words, but sadly we have seen since that lessons have not been learned. That continues up and down the line, in London and beyond. Whitstable is a recent example. There has been great concern about what has happened there.
My concern is that Network Rail is hiding behind its statutory responsibilities—its operational licence responsibility—to mitigate safety risks. In earlier correspondence from the community relationships manager, it stated:
“we have to mitigate safety risks. Therefore most of the work we undertake does not require consultation. However, we consult with local authorities and statutory bodies when working within or near particular sites; such as Sites of Special Scientific Interest, and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty.”
The company can hide behind such words and not accept its duty of care to local residents and the local environment. That is what happened in the case of Grange Park, Winchmore Hill and other places.
We need to do better. Network Rail has responsibilities to the public, the taxpayers and, yes, to rail passengers, as well as to the local environment, but it has not taken those responsibilities seriously. It has mitigated some of the issues in Grange Park and it has helped to plant some native shrubs, but it cannot undo what has happened and it cannot provide true restoration and restitution. It has come grudgingly to the table but it needs to do a whole lot more. We need to see it being held to account.
We also want to see whether Network Rail should be subject to environmental impact assessments, because of what my constituents had to suffer. There was a major infrastructure project, so I ask the Minister the following question: please can we bring it out into the open, to ensure that we have a proper process of consultation, information and care for the environment?
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
It is unusual for a half-hour Westminster Hall debate to get trailed on the “Today” programme, but the media interest does not surprise me because this is an issue of real importance for our railways and our environment. Therefore I congratulate the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) on securing this debate. He asked me to pay tribute to the residents and the organisations, such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, that have fought campaigns on this issue. I am happy to do so. It is very important that we get this issue right.
I must start by acknowledging that Network Rail, as a private sector company, is not owned by the Government and therefore Ministers have no power to instruct or direct it. Consequently, although I am happy to respond to the points that have been made in this debate, I should emphasise that tree and vegetation management policy is an operational matter for Network Rail, over which we—as Ministers—do not have any power. Nevertheless, I fully appreciate how important this issue is and the concern that communities feel about Network Rail’s treatment of lineside vegetation.
I have raised this issue on a number of occasions with Network Rail, including with those at the very top of the company; I have raised it with Network Rail’s chief executive, Sir David Higgins, and its director of operations, Robin Gisby. I have raised the specific case of Grange Park; I fully acknowledge the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) in that regard. The pictures on the internet of Grange Park are more like the pictures that one would associate with rain forests being devastated by illegal logging than pictures of a leafy suburb. I therefore fully understand the concerns of local residents. In response to the points made by all hon. Members in Westminster Hall today, I am happy to raise this matter again with Network Rail and I will keep up the pressure in relation to it, as I do on a regular basis. I should also point out that some of my constituents have had similar concerns about lineside tree clearance by London Underground. That is a different organisation, but the concerns of the people affected are similar to those of the people affected by Network Rail.
To be honest, I always face a dilemma in this regard, since I care very much about both the provision of safe, reliable and affordable railways, and trees and the conservation of the natural environment. Of course, that is a dilemma that Network Rail faces on a daily basis. I fully agree with everything that has been said today about how important it is that Network Rail exercises care and good judgment when balancing those competing concerns. Efficiency and cost are a consideration, but environmental concerns also have to be taken seriously too. It is also very important that Network Rail engages effectively with the communities and local authorities that are affected by vegetation management, and of course it is essential that it complies with the relevant regulations relating to conservation and wildlife habitats.
Regarding the specific points that were made about the works adjacent to lines in north Islington, near the Arsenal stadium and the Gillespie park nature reserve, I am concerned to hear that the hon. Member for Islington North felt that Network Rail’s actions were so disproportionate and destructive in that area. Department for Transport officials have raised this case with Network Rail. As we have heard, in response to the concerns expressed by residents, Network Rail’s route director, Mr Phil Verster, suspended vegetation clearance in the area. I gather that he has asked a senior member of his team to contact Islington council to discuss what has happened and what went wrong. The aim is to agree a mutually acceptable method for sharing Network Rail’s work plans in the future.
As regards work during the bird nesting season, I can confirm that the company is bound by the provisions of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, as amended. Network Rail must ensure that it does not contravene the legislation put in place to protect birds while they are nesting. It should be noted that the legislation allows work to be undertaken where needed for safety reasons.
Turning to the more general issues raised today, Network Rail is tasked with managing over 30,000 hectares of lineside vegetation along 20,000 miles of track. That makes the railway a major natural resource, which needs to be managed at all times of the year to keep it safe. Trees growing within the railway corridor between the railway boundary fences are the responsibility of Network Rail. I am afraid that there is no escaping the fact that trees next to the railway, especially if they are relatively tall, can be a potential risk to train operations and public safety. If they fall over the track or into the overhead wires and cables on electrified railway lines, it can lead to severe train disruption, with major delays and service cancellations. There is also the risk that falling trees could cause accidents.
Factors, such as the steepness of cutting slopes, soil conditions and the nature of the vegetation, can all be relevant to the degree of risk at particular locations. In certain circumstances, trees and bushes need to be cut back in certain areas, because low branches and foliage can impair train drivers’ views of signals. For safety reasons, track workers need to be able to see and be seen by trains, to be able to move to a safe place when a train approaches.
Reliability issues are not confined to instances of falling trees, of course. Delays caused by leaves on the line lead to understandable annoyance and frustration for the commuters and passengers affected, not to mention the economic damage of transport delays. Leaf fall can have a significant effect on train performance and is a significant cause of delay in the autumn, generating public pressure for preventive action. The rail regulator highlighted the contribution of vegetation management to the industry’s successful management of train delays last autumn.
In developing its vegetation management policy, Network Rail tells me that it has worked with organisations such as the RSPB, English Nature and Scottish Natural Heritage. Its priority is to operate a safe and reliable railway, and tree clearance must be a part of that. It has a duty to provide, as far as is reasonably practical, a railway free from danger and obstruction from falling trees.
Recognising public concern on the issue, I have emphasised to Network Rail how important it is that it strikes the right balance between providing a safe, reliable and affordable network and addressing local community and environmental concerns. Although the majority of work is carried out responsibly, the company acknowledged again today that in some instances it has fallen short of the standards it sets itself. It accepts that there are lessons to be learned.
In particular, the Government urge Network Rail to engage proactively and effectively with local residents, local authorities and MPs in advance of carrying out works. It has recently revised its consultation process—no doubt seeking to learn lessons from the experiences that hon. Members mentioned—to enable key stakeholders to be informed of intended maintenance operations in good time.
Jeremy Corbyn
I am pleased with the Minister’s response and I am grateful that she will raise our issues with Network Rail. We had exactly those undertakings from it less than a year ago in Islington, and we assumed that it was acting in good faith and would mend its ways in future, because it did similar things on the North London line. Will she tell it in clear terms to please be straight with communities and tell them what is going on? That way, they will understand what is happening, without the kind of double dealing that we had before.
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. It has been raised with Network Rail on various occasions over a period of years. I was trying to remember the first time that I raised it—it was certainly over a year ago. It is important that Network Rail focuses and that we see real change.
There is progress. Network Rail has advised that the number of complaints about vegetation management has fallen. The hon. Gentleman thought that it did not collect that information; I think that it does, but I will check. I was given to understand that it did. Requests to cut back overgrown trees and vegetation now exceed complaints about vegetation management.
However, there are undoubtedly remaining instances in which Network Rail has failed to provide anything like comprehensive advance notice of the nature and timing of its intended work programmes. Network Rail acknowledges the shortcomings that have occurred. For example, it accepts the point made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) that when it does communicate with residents, it sometimes fails to convey the scale of the works that will be undertaken. It is reviewing its communications strategy and working with the Tree Council to improve its lineside vegetation management, and with a view to developing more sustainable solutions to the challenges that it faces in reconciling environmental concerns with keeping the railways running safely. Network Rail has acknowledged that it needs to do better, and I will be urging it to do so.
As the hon. Gentleman highlighted, there are important ecological issues to be considered. Network Rail needs to take care to avoid unnecessary tree felling. I recognise fully the concern that people feel when they see trees being cut down next to railway tracks. Network Rail’s first duty is to ensure the safe running of the railway, but it must also have regard to the environmental, social and quality-of-life importance of the conservation of trees and wildlife corridors. This debate will provide a timely reminder of the importance of engaging with MPs, local communities affected by vegetation management and local authorities. I will ensure that all the points made in this debate are conveyed to Network Rail at the earliest possible opportunity. I have enjoyed the chance to debate an important issue with hon. Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Insolvency Service Performance Targets
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
I have today agreed to the publication of the Insolvency Service’s performance targets for the period 2012-13.
Over the past two years there has been a significant fall in the number of bankruptcies, which has driven down the number of new compulsory insolvency cases dealt with the by the official receiver from 78,000 cases in 2009-10 to a level of 43,600 in 2011-12, with the expectation that this will continue to fall to around 35,000 in 2012-13.
In response to this fall in cases. The service has cut many of its costs, including a reduction in its staff complement from 3,200 to 2,100, and has introduced a number of significant operational changes throughout 2011-12. I have, nonetheless, set the service some challenging targets for the coming year.
In response to the significant change which the service is undergoing, it has decided to increase its focus on staff engagement and has introduced its score for this as a published target in 2012-13.
In reviewing its other targets the service has decided to increase their number, so that they cover a broader range of enforcement outputs and improve consistency in the way in which timeliness for enforcement is measured, with the focus being to ensure that statutory deadlines are met. The service will continue to measure its stakeholders’ confidence in the enforcement regime, seeking to improve on last year’s score of 65%.
Similarly the service will continue to monitor the timely delivery of key outputs to customers for redundancy payments and reports to creditors, as well as the overall level of customer satisfaction.
At present, the service is undergoing an independent review of its funding and corporate structure, which is due to report to BIS at the end of June 2012. As the recommendations from this review will, no doubt, impact heavily on the organisation’s activity for 2012-13 and beyond I have agreed that, while their key targets should not change from those issued here, their corporate plan should be published once the outcome of the review is known.
Therefore the Insolvency Service Corporate Plan will be available from the end of August 2012 at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/About-us.
Insolvency Service Published Targets | 2011-12 Actual | 2012-13 Target |
|---|---|---|
Customers and Stakeholders | ||
Percentage of customers who were very satisfied or satisfied with the service they received (ORS/RPS) | 94% | 90% |
Stakeholder confidence in the service’s enforcement regime (IES/ORS) | 65% | >65% |
Staff | ||
Insolvency Service staff engagement score, as recorded through the Civil Service Staff Survey | 47% | >47% |
Service Delivery | ||
Percentage of reports issued to creditors within eight weeks (ORS) a) for bankruptcy cases b) for company cases | 93% 80% | 92% 80% |
% of appropriate disqualification cases in which proceedings are instigated (S16 letter issued) in under 23 months (ORS/IES) | 99% | 90% |
% of live investigation completed within six months (IES) | 86% | 90% |
% Bankruptcy Restrictions authorised within 11 months of the date of insolvency (ORS/IES) | 71% | 80% |
Action redundancy payment claims (RPS) a) within 3 weeks b) within 6 weeks | 68% 85% | 80% 93% |
The service will also look to build upon its current Customer Service Excellence and Investor in People status, by gaining re-accreditation in 2012.
In addition to these targets the service is required to meet Government-wide targets relating to replying to correspondence from hon. Members, and making payments to suppliers.
Other Targets | 2011-12 Performance | 2012-13 Target |
|---|---|---|
Reply to correspondence from Members of Parliament within 10 days | 87.1% | 100% |
Process payments to suppliers within 30 days | 98.9% | 100% |
The Government have also instructed Departments and agencies to maximise levels of payment of undisputed invoices within eight days.
Tax-advantaged Employee Share Schemes
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The Government have today published two separate consultation documents on changes to tax-advantaged employee share schemes.
The first contains the Government’s initial response to the recommendations published by the Office of Tax Simplification (OTS) on 6 March 2012 in its review of approved employee share schemes. The Government intend to take forward many of these recommendations, including one of the OTS’s main proposals—that self-certification by businesses should replace the current HMRC scheme approvals process. The Government welcome views from interested stakeholders on the design of detailed proposals in this area.
The document also requests further evidence on potential costs, benefits and other impacts of the majority of the OTS’s supplementary recommendations, to help inform future decisions on whether to proceed with these.
The second document published today seeks views on a proposed extension to the enterprise management incentives scheme to benefit academic employees of qualifying companies. This consultation was first announced at Budget 2012.
These consultations will close on 18 September 2012.
Electronic copies of both documents have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
Agriculture and Fisheries Council (12 June)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
The Agriculture and Fisheries Council on Tuesday 12 June in Luxembourg dealt only with fisheries business. The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) represented the UK. Richard Lochhead MSP and Alun Davies AM were also in attendance.
The agenda was confined to discussion of the three main common fisheries policy (CFP) reform regulations. Following previous discussions of key aspects of the package at Council in March, April and May, the presidency aimed to agree Council general approaches on the CFP basic regulation and common market organisation (CMO) proposals. The presidency also submitted a progress report for Council to note on the later proposal for a European maritime and fisheries fund (EMFF), on which there had been insufficient time for agreement to be reached.
Following an initial table round it was clear that the main outstanding issues on the compromise texts related to discards, maximum sustainable yield (MSY), and regionalisation. On discards, a significant number of member states were opposed to early deadlines for the introduction of landing obligations, or opposed to legal provisions on the elimination of discards in principle. On MSY, some member states were reluctant to agree challenging targets and raised concerns about practical implications in specific fisheries. Many member states expressed concerns about the role of the Commission under a regionalised process.
Discussions of these issues continued throughout the day and into the early hours of the following morning with the presidency pushing hard for agreement to a general approach. The UK played a major role in the process, forming alliances in support of our objectives and helping to shape the final compromise texts.
Council eventually reached agreement on a general approach on the CFP reform regulations which met many of the UK’s objectives. The agreement included introduction of a discard ban by 1 Jan 2014 for pelagic stocks and phased introduction beginning in 2015 and fully in place by 2018 for other UK fisheries; deadlines for the achievement of maximum sustainable yield (MSY) levels in fisheries by 2015 where possible, and by 2020 at the latest; and agreement on the processes to regionalise decision making in line with the proposals the UK had developed with other member states. This was an important first step in securing genuine and effective CFP reform. The final agreement through co-decision with the European Parliament is not expected to be concluded until late 2013.
Agricultural and Fisheries Council (18 June)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
The Agriculture and Fisheries Council on Monday 18 June in Luxembourg was attended by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for agriculture and food. Alun Davies AM also attended.
The Council discussed the draft rural development regulations, which set the rules for the use of Pillar 2 of the CAP. There were two questions: whether there should be a minimum percentage of spending on environmental activity, and EU co-financing of Pillar 2 measures.
On environmental activity, the proposal included a non-binding guideline of a minimum of 25%. Member states split three ways: those that felt it unnecessary; those that could accept if it remained non-binding, and those that wanted it to be legally binding. There were also calls to include more areas under the provision such as forestry, Natura 2000 and the water framework directive.
On co-financing, the Commission proposal was for a single rate of EU funding for most spending in most member states, with a higher rate for less developed regions and some specific measures. Member states’ views were varied: no increase at all, a simple rate would be a useful simplification, requests for national flexibility, higher rates for countries undergoing austerity, and that environmental measures could be co-financed at 100%. The UK and others argued that money transferred from Pillar 1 to 2 should not require national co-financing.
The presidency presented their report on the CAP negotiations. It was broadly welcomed by member states, but did stimulate some discussion notably on greening and the need to develop wider options for Pillar 1. Newer member states wanted a solution for the convergence of payment levels between member states. A number of member states noted stronger concern about the proposals on capping than was reflected in the report.
The Council adopted conclusions on the protection and welfare of animals. The Netherlands submitted a declaration expressing concern at the Commission’s lack of ambition in the EU welfare strategy and the importance of dealing with the shortcomings identified in their review of the animal transport legislation—and abstained. Sweden, supported by Belgium, Austria and Denmark, made a statement to the same effect as that made by the Netherlands. The UK also made a statement on improving welfare during transport, noting particularly the importance of scientific evidence. The Commission noted the widespread support for their strategy and promised to bring forward various non-legislative proposals to address some of the practical problems on animal transportation.
Under any other business the Commission provided information on the level of member state compliance on sow stalls. Eighteen would be compliant by 1 January 2013 (UK already compliant), but at least nine would not. The Commission stated they would bring infringement proceedings against non-compliant states.
The Commission had written to Ministers on the G20 action plan about food price volatility and agriculture. G20 Ministers and officials had met in Mexico to discuss implementation, and its report and recommendations were discussed at the G20 summit on 18 and 19 June.
The presidency informed the Council of draft conclusions on antimicrobial resistance, expecting the conclusions to be adopted at the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council (EPSCO) on 22 June.
The Commission presented its routine report on organic production and labelling. There would be no legislative proposals now but they would engage in a consultation until the end of 2013
Poland and Lithuania, supported by eight member states, asked for export refunds to be re-opened. This was rejected by the Commission, but the situation would be kept under review.
Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Health Ministers met on 22 June in Luxembourg for the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs (EPSCO) Council. I represented the UK.
The Council agreed a partial general approach on the proposal for a regulation on establishing the health for growth programme 2014-20, the third successive public health programme. The Commission and some member states preferred approach was not reflected in the text on the table, particularly the amended title and measures around differential co-financing. However, with one exception, all member states supported the partial general approach. The UK lifted its parliamentary scrutiny reserve and supported the proposal, stressing that the negotiation of sectoral programmes should not be prejudicial to the wider negotiations on the multi-annual financial framework.
There was an orientation debate on the draft decision on serious cross-border threats to health. Most member states, including the UK, agreed with the presidency’s proposal to delete the article giving the Commission power to introduce common temporary health measures to contain serious health threats. There was also broad consensus that the co-ordination of response planning was primarily an issue for member states, and best achieved through the Health Security Committee, without any need for binding measures.
Council conclusions on combating antimicrobial resistance were adopted without comment.
Under any other business (AOB), the presidency ran through the achievements in the field of health under their presidency, touching upon the conclusion of discussions between the Council and the European Parliament on proposals concerning pharmacovigilance, and on the presidency’s conclusion that it would not be possible to make further progress on the information to patients proposal. The Commission drew delegations’ attention to their communication on the innovation partnership on active and health ageing, and gave an overview of its contents. France presented two AOB points (the first jointly with Luxembourg) on the safeguarding of the supply of raw materials for pharmaceuticals, and on the MEDICRIME convention.
Finally, there was a lunchtime debate on the joint procurement of medical countermeasures in response to major outbreaks of communicable diseases (such as a pandemic flu). Some member states were reserved in indicating whether they intended to participate in such a programme, and whether it should be extended to facilitate the procurement of non-emergency countermeasures. The UK maintained that it did not intend to participate in a joint procurement exercise at this stage.
Terrorism Act
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I am pleased to announce that Mr David Anderson QC has completed his second annual report as the statutory independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, on the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006 in 2011. This report will be laid before the House today.
I will carefully consider his recommendations in consultation with other relevant departments and agencies. The Government’s response to his recommendations will be laid before the House in due course.
Security Industry Authority (Annual Report)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)
I am pleased to announce that the annual report 2011-12 and accounts of the Security Industry Authority (SIA) will be laid before Parliament and published today.
Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office.
Fraud Act 2006
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I have today laid before Parliament the Government’s memorandum to the Justice Committee on post-legislative scrutiny of the Fraud Act 2006. Copies are available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office.
The Fraud Act 2006 reformed the law on fraud and created a general offence of fraud that can be committed in three ways: by false representation, by failing to disclose information and by abuse of a position of trust.
These reforms have been implemented, in line with the stated objectives of the Act, as detailed in the memorandum.
The memorandum also reviews the use of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud and concludes that this remains a useful tool in prosecutors’ armouries.
Local Sustainable Transport Fund
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
I am pleased to announce today that I am awarding a further £266 million to support authorities in delivering local economic growth while cutting carbon emissions from transport. This funding unlocks further local funding sources to deliver £460 million investment in local sustainable transport schemes.
Today’s announcement is the third and final instalment of the local sustainable transport fund, which is now delivering over £1 billion investment in sustainable travel across England, and demonstrating that economic growth and carbon reduction go hand in hand. To facilitate today’s announcements, I have secured an additional £40 million for the fund, on top of the original £560 million allocation.
On 20 December 2011, the Department received 13 business cases for large projects for the local sustainable transport fund.
I have decided to announce £225 million for 12 large projects today, and I have also reserved up to £5 million funding for a small project from Tyne and Wear ITA, which my officials will progress with officers from Tyne and Wear during the coming weeks. The list of decisions made today regarding large projects is attached.
On 24 February 2012, the Department received 53 small project bids to tranche 2. On 24 May 2012 I announced £113 million to fund 30 small projects, and I am today committing a further £41 million to fund 15 more. The list of decisions made today regarding the remaining tranche 2 bids is also attached.
I am very pleased that every single eligible local authority across England has applied for funding to the local sustainable transport fund, either as a lead bidder, or as a partner authority to a large project. The fund has been well received by local government and I am confident that it will be effective in addressing the two key objectives of creating growth and cutting carbon.
All projects were assessed against published criteria. Successful projects were those judged to perform well against the twin objectives of supporting the local economy and facilitating economic development, while reducing carbon emissions. They also demonstrated potential to deliver wider social and economic benefits, to improve safety, to bring about improvements to air quality, or to promote increased levels of physical activity.
All large projects included a full economic appraisal based on the Department’s WebTAG guidance. The vast majority of funded large projects offer at least high value for money, with several offering very high value for money.
Projects Approved for Funding | ||
|---|---|---|
Local Authority | LSTF Project Name | DFT Funding (2012-15) (£m) |
North East | ||
Tyne and Wear ITA** | Addressing the barriers that transport creates to economic growth and accessing employment | Up to 5,000 |
North West | ||
Merseyside ITA* | Supporting Sustainable Access to Opportunity in Merseyside | 19,990 |
Transport for Greater Manchester* | Let us Get to Work | 32,460 |
Yorkshire and the Humber | ||
South Yorkshire ITA | A Sustainable Journey to Work | 24,598 |
East Midlands | ||
Nottingham City Council* | Nottingham Urban Area LSTF Main Bid | 10,320 |
West Midlands | ||
Centro* | Smart Network, Smarter Choices | 33,218 |
Telford and Wrekin Council* | Telford Future—Local Action for Sustainable Growth | 6,100 |
East of England | ||
Hertfordshire County Council* | BIG HERTS BIG IDEAS | 9,679 |
South East | ||
Reading Borough Council* | Targeting Travel Choice Transitions | 20,692 |
Surrey County Council* | Surrey Travel SMART | 14,304 |
Transport for South Hampshire | A Better Connected South Hampshire: Supporting Growth, Reducing Carbon, Improving Health | 17,839 |
South West | ||
Bournemouth Borough Council (South East Dorset)* | South East Dorset Sustainable Travel Package—“The 3 Towns Corridor” | 12,122 |
Bristol City Council* | West of England Sustainable Transport (WEST) | 24,035 |
*Partial funding approved. | ||
**Funding for a revised small project proposal from Tyne and Wear ITA, based on elements of their Large Project business case, has also been retained, and will be awarded pending a successful revised small project application. |
Projects Approved for Funding | ||
|---|---|---|
Local Authority | LSTF Project Name | DFT Funding (2012-15) (£m) |
North East | ||
Middlesbrough Council | Sustainable Middlesbrough—A Place for Business | 1,210 |
North West | ||
Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council* | BwD CONNECT Project | 1,452 |
St Helens Council | Mid Mersey Sustainable Cross Boundary Links | 3,120 |
Yorkshire and the Humber | ||
North Yorkshire County Council* | (1) Harrogate and Knaresborough Sustainable Transport Package (2) Boosting the Tourism Economy in Whitby and the Esk Valley | 1,653 3,661 |
East Midlands | ||
Rutland County Council* | Travel4Rutland | 4,016 |
West Midlands | ||
Stoke-on-Trent City Council (combined with joint bid with Staffordshire County Council) | Stoking Employment in North Staffordshire (a combination of “Stoking Employment” and “North Staffordshire Sustainable Transport Package”) | 4,961 |
East of England | ||
Bedford Borough Council* | Access to Stations | 4,803 |
South East | ||
East Sussex County Council* | East Sussex Coastal Towns—Better travel to Work and Education | 2,206 |
East Sussex County Council* | Travel Choices for Lewes | 1,571 |
Hampshire County Council* | Sustainable Transport Solutions for England’s two newest National Parks | 3,810 |
Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead* | Sustainable Growth for Maidenhead | 1,956 |
West Sussex County Council* | West Sussex Sustainable Travel Towns | 2,346 |
South West | ||
Wiltshire Council | Improving Wiltshire’s Rail Offer | 4,250 |
*Partial funding approved. |
Local Authority | LSTF Project Name |
|---|---|
East of England | |
Norfolk County Council | Connecting Norfolk to Growth |
South East | |
West Berkshire Council | “Connecting West Berkshire”—keeping our economy and people moving |
South West | |
Somerset County Council | Two Moors Sustainable Visitor Travel Project |
Credit Union Expansion Project
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
On 10 May 2012, the Department for Work and Pensions published the credit union feasibility study looking at the sustainability of credit unions. It also examined what more can be done to expand them to serve many more people on lower incomes. The study has been well received by the sector and a range of stakeholders.
Credit unions are doing a good job offering access to credit and other financial services for people on lower incomes. They provide a real alternative to higher cost credit available from the commercial sector and illegal loan sharks. Therefore, if credit unions are ready for the challenge of modernisation and expansion we are willing to support them. Today, I am announcing that the Government will take forward the findings of the feasibility study. In particular, the DWP will make a further investment of up to £38 million over the next three years in credit unions. This investment, which is in addition to the £13 million we invested in 2011-12, will be conditional upon the credit union industry meeting a number of agreed milestones for collaboration, modernisation and expansion. Our aim will be to ensure the industry’s financial sustainability by the end of the project.
The feasibility study showed that at present even the biggest credit unions struggle to meet the operating costs of making small loans to people on lower incomes. Therefore, in addition to our investment in modernisation and expansion, we plan to consult on raising the cap on the interest rate that credit unions are permitted to charge on loans, to determine whether it will help credit unions achieve financial sustainability and reach a wider range of customers.
The Department for Work and Pensions, HM Treasury, and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will continue to work closely on all aspects of the credit union expansion project, including the formal consultation on the interest rate cap and any subsequent legislative changes.
Grand Committee
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Arrangement of Business
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)
My Lords, I begin by reminding the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber while the Committee is sitting, we shall adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are heard and resume 10 minutes thereafter.
Civil Aviation Bill
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bradshaw
Lord Bradshaw
In moving Amendment 1, I shall speak also to Amendment 10. These amendments relate to the surface access to the airports, which is of course very important, not just for people who fly but for people who work there and residents. So I am not entering a plea especially for airline passengers but for everybody who uses those modes of access in getting there.
Some figures published this morning show that pollution arising from aeroplanes is reducing quite sharply as bigger and more efficient aeroplanes take over. That brings into focus the need to tackle the higher level of both noise and atmospheric pollution that comes from surface access to airports. I want to stress the point that we must do something about surface access. I know that there are many ideas about it—it is probably becoming more important than the aircraft themselves.
I do not intend to turn this debate into an argument about the third runway in Heathrow, but I want to draw attention to the large amount of spare runway capacity that exists or is planned to exist at Gatwick, Stansted, Birmingham and Luton airports and in other regions of the country. The four airports that I mentioned particularly affect the south-east. If it were exploited, that would reduce the clamour about demand at Heathrow, which is being fed mainly by BA and BAA which have substantial financial interests in it. I am particularly anxious about the damaging and expensive campaign that they are running, which suggests that London is not open for business. I think that they are trying to hijack any debate and the forthcoming White Paper to try to concentrate on what they see as the problem—how they can get more planes at Heathrow, which in turn will give them more income.
Regional airports could well take up the challenge as Gatwick has done since it was divested from BAA. Noble Lords will probably be aware that Gatwick now has two direct flights to China, one to South Korea, one to Nigeria and one to Hong Kong. That is only the beginning to building up an international business, and I believe—and I have been to several airports—that Birmingham, with all the committed money being spent there, will offer passengers a wide range of possibilities when they travel. For example, most airport users or people who use the lines, cite the fact that Stansted Express is not a very good, efficient or comfortable way in which to get to London. In fact, if you consider the Lee valley, the whole service needs revision. It needs money spent on the infrastructure, and it is one of the areas that I hope the Government may have something to say about in the high-level output statement for the railways which I believe they are due to publish next month.
The impact of HS2—if it is built—on Birmingham airport would be huge and would bring it within 38 minutes of London, which is equivalent to what Gatwick is now and what Heathrow is for most people. The real point that has been made to me, particularly by people at Gatwick, is that passengers from airports do not mix well with passengers who are commuting on a regular basis. For example, if trains emanating from Brighton arrive at Gatwick full of commuters and a lot of Americans with heavy luggage who have never been here before are on the platform, they cannot be accommodated comfortably on the service that is provided. That is why I was pleased to see the debate yesterday in the House of Commons on this matter. It was raised by Henry Smith, the MP for Crawley, who said that it is very necessary that the whole question of access to airports is brought into focus. It is definitely on the radar of the department. In this debate, reference was made to the fact that the new Southern franchise will be let, and it will be up to the franchisees what they want to do. I think they might need a little guidance. It is not just the train services; it is the trains themselves because many of the trains in use on the railway are pretty unsuitable for people with heavy luggage.
If I am correct, it is only the regulated airports that need any requirement for improvements to be included in the regulations. This is so that they can be included within their regulatory asset base. I do not want any situation to arise in a regulated airport where any airline might legally escape paying its share of any improvements that are made to surface access. I hope the Minister can give me an assurance that once this change is made everything will go into the RAB.
Licensed airports, which are a different lot, can do whatever they consider to be commercially attractive. In many cases, this will mean help with investments by other transport providers to produce mutually beneficial schemes and from local authorities keen to promote regional airports. These airports do not need the regulator to intervene, as I see it, so the intervention may come from government or from local authorities which are keen to invest in improvements. Birmingham airport stressed to me that it feels that if the huge spare capacity it has is used, it would bring a lot of development with it. In that case, you have an airport that is willing to accommodate any improvement.
I hope the Minister can give me the assurances that I seek and will endorse the fact that the improvement of surface access is extremely important and is becoming more so as time goes on. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
The noble Lord might be surprised that I am not entirely unsympathetic to what he is trying to achieve but I do not think that he is trying to achieve it in the best way. I will not focus on his comments about Gatwick managing to be a hub or otherwise, although I think that if you told the people around Gatwick that we were to move Heathrow’s operation there, they might be a little less enthusiastic than the airport owners.
I think the noble Lord is right that there is a problem about surface access to airports generally. However, it is not my view that the CAA is the best organisation to do this—the Minister will tell us what he thinks. This flags up the problem which a number of us have referred to over many years: we lack an effective regional government structure in Britain that could provide the surface transport necessary around airports, as well as some of the other regional infrastructure that we need. The noble Lord is right that we end up doing things in a hit-and-miss way, with a bit here and a bit there, and then join it up afterwards. Heathrow Express came in but was that really the best idea when we had Crossrail coming? There are a lot of oddities in there. In my judgment, and I will be interested to hear what the Minister says on this, if we asked the CAA to suddenly become the organisation that has to comment on and recommend surface infrastructure we, will need a much larger organisation than the current CAA.
Lord Berkeley
We have heard two interesting speeches. I have a lot of sympathy with the amendment but what concerns me is starting off on the basis that this would add to the regulatory duties in Clause 1. Regulatory duties are terribly important issues for a regulator to take into account. I have had certain experiences with the Office of Rail Regulation over the years. Reminding it of its duties can be a good way of making sure that it remembers and acts on them.
Of course, Clause 1(2) says that the CAA must carry out its functions,
“in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.
I am not clear on what we are talking about when it comes to competition. This is something that will recur in later amendments. Is it competition between those airports included in the scheme in the south-east, or all airports, or competition for the provision of services within an airport? If it is the latter, this seems a big sledgehammer to crack a nut. When the Minister replies, maybe he can put me right on that.
There is also the issue that my noble friend Lord Soley raised on surface access and whether the CAA is the best organisation to do this. He might be right or wrong but there is a similar concern with ports and airports: who pays for the infrastructure and who decides? I thought that the general policy of successive Governments was that the private-sector operator of an airport or port invested within the boundary of the facility and then expected the state, local or regional authorities, or someone, to contribute to the cost of access, except when there was a Section 106-type agreement. We certainly got into a knot in the ports sector. Sometimes there was state aid available for some things and sometimes there was not.
We got into a right old knot with Heathrow over the years. BAA contributed to the cost of building the Heathrow Express line and operating the trains. It did not seem to want the Heathrow Express trains to go down the Crossrail tunnel, which most people would have thought would have made a very good piece of public transport planning, so it will not go down it. I was told by some people from BAA yesterday that the reason for that—they confirmed this—was that the most important customers who use the Heathrow Express, particularly in first class, do not like going into tunnels because their BlackBerry does not work. They would rather go from Paddington to Canary Wharf in a taxi, where they can still play with their BlackBerry. Frankly, that is a farcical argument. It was suggested that if there was a first-class carriage in Crossrail and it went straight to Heathrow, people might use it. This attitude will adversely affect the future public transport and surface access into Heathrow. I hope it will change its attitude; it has certainly said that it will look at the situation.
Lord Trefgarne
I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for not being in my place when he began his remarks. I missed about 90 seconds.
I recognise the importance of surface access to the major airports and I acknowledge that to Stansted, for example, it is not as good as it should be. I hope it can be improved. However, I am reluctant, for the reasons expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Soley and Lord Berkeley, to impose this duty on the Civil Aviation Authority. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, will not press his amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The lack of clarity on this point has been demonstrated today by my noble friend and by some noble Lords opposite. It is not permissible that this situation should prevail. I hope that the Minister will be able to demonstrate that the issues that have been raised will be tackled by the Government in due course. It is totally unsatisfactory that this position should be allowed to remain.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My noble friend will know that I have been pressing him to consider, in the context of HS2, the possibility of an extension around north London to reach the possible future hub airport in the Thames Estuary. This issue has been pressed not least by Foster + Partners, whose imaginative scheme is now the front runner for a Thames Estuary airport. Of course, communications and surface access will be important problems there.
While I have sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Bradshaw said about the desirability of improving surface access, that could not conceivably be a function of the CAA. I agree with those who have argued that. It must be a function for the Department of Transport because, after all, it concerns the railways.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I think the local authorities would have some difficulty planning together an orbital railway joining up the HS2 to HS1, with a branch to a potential Thames Estuary airport. It is a very imaginative scheme.
Having lived with the concept of a Thames Estuary airport for about 20 years, the first proposal put forward for it envisaged an orbital rail link around the north of London. In which case, therefore, you do not have a situation where people have to come right into London and cross from one station to another in order to get out to their airport. There is a substantial issue here; however, as I said a moment ago, I cannot see that this could be a function of the Civil Aviation Authority. It has issues that go much wider than what falls within their level of responsibility. One would suspect also the competence of the advice that they have—it must be from my honourable friends in the Department for Transport.
Perhaps I could ask one question. I have asked my noble friend if he would meet some of the people who are proposing to put forward the case for the extension of the HS1—HS2 to go around the north of London—and he has undertaken to consider whether that would be appropriate. I hope I do not misrepresent him. I wonder whether he is yet able to give me an answer: can he meet those who have done a great deal of work on this subject and would be able to offer very valuable advice that may well not be available within the Department for Transport itself?
It cannot be right for Ministers to keep at arm’s length, as it were, outside expert evidence that could greatly improve the quality of their decision-making. It arises only peripherally from this amendment, but we are talking about surface access, and therefore it is highly relevant.
While I am in some sympathy with my noble friend’s amendment, I am not able to support it for the reasons that I and others have mentioned, that it cannot possibly be the responsibility of the CAA to have to make provision for surface access in the way that the amendment suggests.
Lord Berkeley
Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may press him a little further on what he said with respect to the proposed airport in the Thames Estuary—that it could apply anywhere. As the Government want, and as is suggested in this Bill, the airports are effectively in competition with each other. If they then want to expand, they will have to apply for planning permission in some way or another, then demonstrate what transport plans they have, and who will pay for them. That will then go back to the Government, who will decide which development happens where according to whether they are prepared to pay for the transport links. Is that the way the noble Lord thinks it should happen?
Lord Jenkin of Roding
Certainly, the question of paying for it would have to be considered in some detail. The great advantage of the Foster + Partners proposal as put forward is that they recognise that this would be financed not by the taxpayer but by investment which they would attract perhaps from around the world. There should be a great deal of investment interest in a project of this kind. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is absolutely right, of course, that when this goes to the IPC or its successor, this is precisely the sort of thing that would need to be demonstrated, along with all the other things that the planning system requires. If, however, the Department for Transport is unable to meet the proponents of such a scheme, it will start with not one but two hands behind its back. That is why I have pressed my noble friend to say that in the context of the HS2 consultation he will meet the people concerned, and I very much hope that his officials will feel that it is appropriate for him to do so.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister’s worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the amendment says about surface transport, and of course that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on how we could improve surface transport. I will put my three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is some distance away at present. The airport is certainly prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard.
The Minister may have the obvious consolation, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are largely talking about transport projects of the greatest significance, linking our major centres of population to our airports through improvements, which are certainly necessary to all the London airports. Apart from Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail communication and has great expectations for HS2, all airports recognise that the ease with which people can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving connections, will say that this is not a matter with which we can directly charge the CAA.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as we have heard today, surface transport access is a very important concern for our major airports—not just regulated ones but non-regulated airports, too. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for enabling us to debate this topic today.
My noble friend is certainly correct to say that without good transport access, it will not be possible for our airports to maintain their strong position compared to their European counterparts, and that we must ensure that people using our airports have access to a range of options for getting to and from them. That is why the Government have put a heavy emphasis on the importance of high-quality public transport to our airports. It is one of the reasons why Thameslink will deliver considerable improvements to access at Gatwick. It is why HS2 and Crossrail will, in the future, deliver important improvements at Heathrow, and it is why the upgrade of London Underground will further enhance access to Heathrow.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw touched on the problems of the Gatwick Express. When I visited Gatwick Airport, the management certainly made that point to me very strongly.
Your Lordships will also be aware that the Government are seeking to invest in improving access to non-regulated airports through regional growth funding, including, for example, by upgrading junction 10A of the M1 near Luton and through realigning and tunnelling a section of the A45 to facilitate the extension of Birmingham Airport’s runway. The Government recognise the vital contributions that regional airports make to local economies and that regional connectivity is important, as explained by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw.
The amendments seek to expand the scope of CAA’s primary duty for its airport economic regulation functions to meet this point. Specifically, the primary duty is expanded by putting the provision of surface access links on an equal footing with airport operation services. Given the importance of surface access, I sympathise with the thinking behind this amendment. It is important that regulated airports can invest in surface transport access in so far as their unregulated counterparts would be able to do so.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I seek an explanation for this point, which my noble friend has also made to me in private. If the department is engaged in a consultation, why on earth should a Minister who is answerable for the department not meet some of the people who would have valuable advice to offer on a proposal, which they wish to put forward? How can it possibly be right for a department to conduct a consultation and shut itself off from outside expert evidence? I do not understand my noble friend’s explanation.
Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes very good points, and they are the ones put to the Permanent Secretary at the department. However, I have to accept the advice that I am given.
Lord Berkeley
How can the department consult with outside bodies if it does not meet any outside bodies?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, Ministers spend all their time consulting with outside bodies. However, at some point they are advised that it is inappropriate to meet them. I have agreed with my noble friend that I will take this up with the Permanent Secretary.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned Manchester. The noble Lord will recognise that Manchester is not a regulated airport. If it decided to contribute to a surface access scheme, it could recover the costs from its customers if the market would bear it. However, that is of course a commercial matter for the airport.
Clause 19(6) provides that “a price control condition” may be made,
“by reference to the amount charged for particular goods or services”,
or,
“to the overall amount charged for a range of goods or services”.
Clause 19 does not specify the mechanics of setting the price control and leaves the CAA with flexibility to take whatever approach seems most appropriate within the framework provided by Clauses 1 and 18(1). Specifically, this flexibility, combined with the provision in Clause 21(1)(f) which states that licensed activities may relate,
“to activities carried on outside the airport area”,
will not prohibit the CAA from taking into account costs from outside the airport area, such as from rail links, where appropriate when setting a price control.
However, given the importance of this issue, the Government will reflect on the debate and specifically will consider further whether any extension to the primary duty to make special provision in respect of rail and road links to the airport is necessary or desirable. I hope that I have provided my noble friend with the reassurance he seeks, particularly that the Government will consider the amendment further and if appropriate bring forward an amendment on Report.
Lord Bradshaw
I just add the fact that the airport is often the primary reason why the surface links are needed but many people benefit from them. I am not suggesting that the airport should pay the whole cost but a proportion. If its regulatory asset base is linked to that, the airport needs to make sure that it can collect money from the airlines using the airport. I am most anxious that the cost of the facilities should be a charge on the airlines as well as any another beneficiaries. I am not saying that the airlines should pay the whole but a proportion of the cost of the new facilities. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser
This amendment and Amendment 13 relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of State’s general duty.
Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill,
“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.
Subsection (2) goes on to say that:
“The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.
This amendment adds to the end of that,
“but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”.
In the absence of any definition of what “where appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) that promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services will further the interests of users of air transport services. Promoting competition does not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or achieve both objectives.
The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement to promote competition,
“by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”,
does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority considers that to do so would conflict with its primary responsibility of furthering,
“the interests of users of air transport services”.
It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers would promote competition when to do so would conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility to further the interests of air transport services, as set out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the providers of airport operation services. That would defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in subsection (1).
I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out its function in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe that promoting competition cannot not be in the interests of users of air transport services, which would be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to decide that it will not promote competition in the provision of airport operation services because to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of air transport services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a detailed explanation of what the words “where appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
I have sympathy with my noble friend. However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes certain duties on an organisation—in this case the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and it is not only in this one, although it happens here too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble friend has pinpointed.
Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that,
“the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport operation services are met”.
There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought to do. It covers just about everything from whether the coffee machine works to whether you have good services in other more fundamental ways.
I wonder at times whether we are being clear with the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport operation services—means that it can say in certain circumstances that it does not think that a particular demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it received a legal challenge from someone or some organisation.
It is a general point but sometimes we are casual with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity issue.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am puzzled by the amendment. It is absolutely at the heart of an economic regulator’s job in the general context of government policy, as it has been under successive Governments, that you can give an organisation, perfectly properly, a duty to promote competition. Indeed, in the past, competition between the various airports has been a major feature of our airport structure. We will come later to the relationship between the CAA, the Competition Commission and the other bodies that are required by statute to promote competition. However, it does not seem in the least inappropriate that the Bill should state at the very beginning that the general duties of the CAA should include one to promote competition.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what the meaning of the words “where appropriate” was. I give an example from the debate on the previous group of amendments. Does competition mean competition only between airports or competition between terminals in the same airport? I would have had no difficulty whatever in arguing that it should not conceivably be competition between the terminals of the same airport, which are under the same management and which one would expect to be run in such a way as to provide the best complementary service for the entire airport for the benefit of users and freight operators. Therefore, it would be quite easy to say that of course competition between terminals would not be appropriate, while competition between airports certainly should be. As I say, we will come later to how that might be applied and enforced.
However, subsection (2) as originally drafted is perfectly reasonable. When I read the amendment that noble Lords had tabled to the subsection, it aroused in me the very unworthy thought that perhaps they do not think that competition is good for users. Competition must be absolutely at the heart of the benefit to users, for the purposes of both the quality of service and keeping costs down. That is what it is about. If the noble Lord wishes to press his amendment when we get to Report stage, I have to say that I would be firmly opposed to it.
Earl Attlee
If the amendments sought to include a requirement that the CAA must promote competition only where it is consistent with the interests of passengers and owners of cargo, I would thoroughly agree with their intent. However, the presence of the words “where appropriate” in the primary duty in Clause 1(2) already achieves the intent of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. Any further changes are therefore unnecessary. The noble Lord asked me for a definition of “where appropriate” but neither the CAA nor the appeal bodies would have any difficulty in working out what it means.
Broadly speaking, the primary duty provides for the CAA to carry out its airport economic regulation functions in a way that will further the interests of passengers and owners of cargo. The primary duty also states that the CAA must do so, where appropriate, by promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services. This means that it will not be appropriate to promote competition if it is not in the interests of passengers and owners of cargo. Clearly, the CAA will have to balance the issues listed in subsection (1)—for instance, cost and quality. There is a balance to be struck and it is the duty of the CAA to strike it on behalf of passengers and owners of cargo. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, recognised, these duties would also apply to the Secretary of State. Therefore, the intent of the amendment is already implicit in the primary duty and any further changes would be superfluous. I hope that this provides your Lordships with the reassurance required and that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his response and my noble friend Lord Soley and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, for their contributions to the debate. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, rather misunderstood the wording of the amendment or what I said. I did not seek to remove from subsection (2) the words that related acting in a way that promoted competition. The purpose of my amendment was to make sure that there could not be a conflict between subsections (1) and (2) by making sure that if there was a conflict, subsection (1) would prevail. That was designed so that activities would be carried out in a way that would be beneficial to the users of air transport services.
In his response, the Minister has taken one of the lines that I had suggested he might take in the contribution I made—namely, that he has argued that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) already achieve the objective that I sought to achieve with my amendment. In other words, that if it is considered that there is a conflict between subsections (1) and (2), then—as I understand it from what the Minister has said—the Civil Aviation Authority, using the words “where appropriate”, would be able to argue that subsection (1) took priority, because that is the primary responsibility. If I have understood the Minister correctly—and what he said as to how this should be interpreted is now on the record—then I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Rotherwick
“( ) the need to secure that the reasonable needs and interests of general and business aviation are promoted and safeguarded,”
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 3. I shall speak also to Amendments 9 and 11—the latter of which seeks to introduce a new clause after Clause 1. First, I would like to apologise to the Minister for not being able to speak at the Second Reading; and, secondly, I declare my interest as a private pilot and an aircraft owner. I also declare an interest as a director of the Light Aviation Association, which serves the interests of sports and recreational powered flying in the UK, and as vice president of the General Aviation Alliance, a body that co-ordinates regulatory interests of various UK aviation associations, thus representing a co-ordinated position for their pilots, aircraft owners and operators. Moreover, to demonstrate that the LAA is not a pressure group, but a body that knows of what it speaks, the LAA is itself a regulatory body, exercising functions delegated to it by the CAA in respect of a huge range of general aviation aircraft.
This Bill does not provide us with a comprehensive new legal framework to replace the whole of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. Some may lament the fact, given that this is the first Bill to address this area of policy in a generation. It is not as though the ground has not been prepared. Considerable effort has been expended in recent years in examinations and analysis of the role and function of the CAA in preparation for a more comprehensive piece of legislation.
The Bill before your Lordships’ House is, regrettably, limited in its scope. Its principal focus is on the economic regulation of major airports, but it goes little further, placing new duties on the Civil Aviation Authority in respect of airline passengers and owners of air cargo. Unfortunately, these new regulatory duties will, if enacted in their present form, ignore other sectors of UK aviation. Consequently, the Bill may, in fact, sow the seeds of potentially damaging developments that would impact on those other sectors. In particular, they will have potentially serious implications for the growth and sustainability of the general and business aviation industry and community, which contribute so much to the economy of the UK, and which have the potential to contribute so much more to helping us, as a nation, to move out of our present predicaments. If airport regulation is framed for the benefit of the air transport user, as it is in the Bill, the inevitable consequence will be the creeping exclusion of the other sectors of civil aviation and general and business aviation.
This trend is already evident. I travel widely as a private pilot and find that the provisions for general and business aviation in many other countries put ours to shame. I am therefore bringing forward simple and straightforward amendments to protect and promote general and business aviation and to ensure that this important sector continues to use our major airports. This objective can be ensured by giving the CAA a specific duty to consider general and business aviation in its regulation of major airports.
General and business aviation is important. It includes any civilian aircraft operation other than a commercial air transport flight operating to a schedule. It represents a multi-billion pound industry in the UK, from executive business jets through flying training and air ambulances to private aircraft operators and pilots. A 2009 study by PricewaterhouseCoopers on the total value of this sector found that its contribution to the UK economy was £3.7 billion, equivalent to 0.2% of UK economic activity, with around 50,000 people directly employed. The review also identified that of the 27,000 UK-registered aircraft, only 4% were commercial air transport aircraft.
We have a Bill before us—the first in a generation, although I hope it will not be the last—that neglects 96% of UK-registered aircraft and concerns itself with only those few airports that enjoy a dominant market position. It does not address the needs or interests of the general and business aviation community or make any attempt to regulate the activities of the majority of the airports on which this important sector depends.
The Parliament of the European Union recently issued a valuable resolution, 2008/2134, which I commend to the Minister and to the Committee, calling on member states to adopt policies promoting growth and sustainability in general and business aviation. The Government have, as yet, made no significant response to this resolution. However, this Bill is a perfect vehicle. It provides the opportunity, with some slight amendment consistent with its general principles, to make a worthwhile start. This would entail recognising in legislation that general and business aviation has a place at our airports and that its needs and interests should be promoted and sustained by the CAA alongside those of air transport users.
The amendments I propose to Clause 1 are modest and a reasonable modification of the regulatory functions of the CAA, yet they have the potential to bring about a substantial improvement in the operating environment for general and business aviation, which would reap rewards for business, industry, UK competitiveness and the financial health of the country. It will not be lost on my noble friend the Minister that the amendments merely extend the functions of the CAA in respect of operators of dominant airports. I regret that the narrow scope of the Bill precludes an amendment to include all airports, which would be ideal. Although amendments that I would prefer to have tabled are outside the scope of the Bill, they are within its spirit and philosophy.
I urge my noble friend the Minister to reflect on the work that has gone before and on the resolution of the European Parliament. I urge him also to recognise the opportunity that this Bill offers to put general and business aviation interests on the government agenda and send a long-overdue message to the European Parliament and business community that the UK is open for aviation business in all its diversity. I hope my noble friend the Minister will see the benefits this would bring to the country. If he is unable to accept my amendments, I hope that I will be able to offer my services and those of the LAA to him and his officials so that we can work together on this and secure a Bill for the general and business aviation industry, and for the community, that is fit for the future and holds the promise of a brighter one. I invite the Minister to accept this offer, in his usual accommodating fashion, to facilitate the further discussions that will be of mutual benefit.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I do not know what the scope of general and business aviation covers but what about the increasing number of hot air balloons that go around the country? Some are quite high; some are propelled, some are not; some make noise—I do not think it is as serious a problem as surface noise, to which the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred earlier—but they should not go anywhere near airports. What regulation is there for them if they get near airports and in the air generally? It is probably a problem for air traffic control.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton
My Lords, I support the amendment as part of my philosophy of more than 20 years of noting that public servants in Britain who work in agencies—I used to run the Met Office in civil aviation—do not have as part of their job description a requirement to help British commerce and industry. The leader of the Conservatives today said that growth in this country will only come about from businessmen and entrepreneurs. He is wrong. It will also come about from civil servants working with industry to create environments in which these things happen.
It is quite extraordinary that in no case is the job description of any civil servant such that he is judged at the end of the year on how he has done in his service and also promoted industry. This is a good example. The role of the CAA is enormously important for industry. Surely part of the role of the Secretary of State will be to define the terms of reference of the director of the CAA in that direction. The amendment takes us in that direction.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I strongly support Amendments 3 and 9, and perhaps Amendment 11 as well. Like my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, I have a connection with what used to be called the Popular Flying Association, of which I was once the president. Indeed, in that capacity, on one famous occasion, I was lucky enough to fly the then Aviation Minister to open the PFA annual rally. Who was the Aviation Minister? He was none other than my noble friend Lord Goschen, and I am glad to say that we were met with tumultuous applause. As I recall, the only problem was some very nasty weather, about which I had to go to see the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, at the Met Office because we felt that we had not really had proper warning. Happily, all the matters were properly resolved eventually.
General aviation is a very important part of the aviation industry and of aviation activity as a whole. It is quite properly regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority, including the hot air balloons to which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred. Indeed, a few months ago, I had the privilege of flying in one. I must warn your Lordships that it is very exciting and great fun, except the landing. You usually end up in a heap on the grass, but that is for another time. However, general aviation is crucial. Amendments 3 and 9, which were tabled by my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, are important and relevant, and I hope the Minister will be sympathetic, at least, to the aspirations of those amendments, or perhaps will even agree to them.
Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I support the thrust of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Rotherwick. I should also make a mildly spurious declaration that I hold a private pilot’s licence and am the operator of an aircraft, although I can assure the Committee, much to its relief, that I have no intention of going near an economic regulated airport, any more than a hot air balloon would.
My noble friend is right to draw attention to the economic importance of the heavier end of general business aviation. A great deal of economic value is tied up with the importance of being able to move business leaders around the country quickly and, indeed, between countries. To do that, access to major airports is required. My noble friend also drew the Committee’s attention to important areas, such as medevac or ambulance flights. One can also think of traffic monitoring flights, the importance of the maintenance sector and so forth. It is true that general aviation, in particular, business aviation, has been squeezed out of the major airports.
My noble friend is not trying to do anything prescriptive. He is not trying to ensure that a certain share of slots or capacity is accounted for by business aviation. That would not be appropriate. All he is trying to do in his carefully worded amendments and in his remarks in support of them is to draw the Government’s attention to the economic importance of this specialist field. It is easily overlooked. It is not a populous field. Most members of the general public are not going to come across general business aviation flights, but that is not to say that they are not extremely important. My noble friend was right to draw the Committee’s attention to its notable scale. I think he said that this sector is worth £3.7 billion to the economy and employs 50,000 people, so it is important that in determining its regulation the CAA should at least take account of the important interests of this field. It is very easy to portray it as cigar-smoking fat cats coming to appear on television game shows including, perhaps, Members of your Lordships’ House, but in fact we are really talking about the ability for business investment to be drawn into the country. Many business leaders travel by executive aircraft to access our centres of commerce around the country as efficiently as possible. I support my noble friend’s amendments, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am astonished that there is no regulation of general aviation of the sort that is covered by my noble friend’s amendment. If that is right, I cannot understand why the CAA should not have some general role. Air taxis are presumably within the definition that he encounters. There was a time when I had to fly from my home in Essex to Liverpool several times a month, and much the easiest way was to take an air taxi from Stansted Airport, which we used frequently. On one occasion, the pilot suggested that I take over the controls, which lasted for about 10 seconds because I did not have a clue. I look forward to hearing my noble friend’s response to the amendment.
Turning to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I, too, have had one or two very interesting trips in a hot air balloon. As Secretary of State for the Environment, I had to decide on the planning requirements for tethered balloons, which are often used for advertising. I was confronted by two very strong opposing views. Some people said, “These are perfectly horrible and should be strictly controlled”, while others said that it was a harmless form of advertising. I split the difference and said that no planning permission was needed if the balloon would be there for only 14 days or fewer. Everybody seemed satisfied with that and I have never heard any more about it.
Landing in a hot air balloon is very exciting. The important thing is not to get off too quickly or it will disappear up into the air again, which can be very disconcerting. However, it is a splendid sport and I have never forgotten the occasion when I was staying officially at Leeds Castle. Very early one still morning, there was a rally of hot air balloons. I was invited to it by American Express, which had a very large balloon. We took off and had the most marvellous flight. However, before we left, we carefully and quietly climbed up the side of Leeds Castle, where my wife was leaning out of the window in her nightgown. I was able to bid her farewell, almost touching but not quite. We had a very skilful pilot and I hugely admired how he managed the hot air balloon. Again, it seems that the CAA should have some regulatory role in this.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am assured that it does, so that is fine. No doubt my noble friend will explain that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, given that the Bill has been through the other place without this debate being advanced there to any degree, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for his introduction of these amendments. I will be very interested in the Minister’s response. We can all see that the primary responsibility of the CAA in respect of regulated airports means that any aspect of general aviation may be pretty low in its priorities, although some aspects of business aviation have other advantages to the country. However, I must counter some of the rosier views of general aviation with an obvious point. The last time that private flying came to the attention of the general public was in the case of the individual who went up in his private aircraft each night to avoid a day on British soil counting against him and affecting his tax returns. So there is another side to private aviation.
I am very guarded about this but I have some sympathy with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, put forward. He may have over-egged the pudding with all three amendments. I will be most interested in the Minister’s response to Amendment 3. It merely asks that these interests are promoted and safeguarded, which seems a fairly minimal requirement.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, these amendments propose the inclusion of new secondary duties that take account of the interests of general and business aviation. I accept that the Bill is limited in scope. It seeks primarily to provide for better regulation of our airports and is not designed to be a comprehensive overhaul of our legislation. Having carefully considered these amendments, I cannot accept them, as they are unlikely to yield significant benefits but could unfortunately introduce unnecessary ambiguity into the Bill.
Despite the amendments being carefully drafted, a technical difficulty arises because of the absence of any definition or description of what is meant by “general and business aviation”, so the amendment may introduce undesirable uncertainty. I am sure that all noble Lords in the Committee understand what we mean by it, but not in legislative terms. I will ensure that I am briefed on the EU declaration that my noble friend Lord Rotherwick mentioned.
There are also policy difficulties with the proposed amendment. One policy intention behind the Clause 1 duties is for the CAA to be provided with a set of clear and unambiguous duties, promoting the interests of passengers and owners of cargo in the provision of air operation services. It follows that the number of secondary duties should be as small as is reasonably practicable. The new framework for economic regulation would apply to airports with significant market power—currently, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. General and business aviation interests will be covered when the flight includes passengers. For example, when a corporate flight is carrying business passengers, the primary duty will extend to the passengers as they will comprise users of transport services. It appears that the only cases where the interests of general and business aviation will not be taken into account are when the flight carries neither passengers nor cargo, other than cargo carried by the pilot. A secondary duty to take into account the reasonable interests of general and business aviation is unlikely to make a material difference, having regard to the very small percentage of such flights to regulated airports.
The Bill recognises that conflicts may arise between the interests of different users of air transport services. In such cases, the CAA has very wide discretion to decide whose interests it should further. Against this background, we do not think that it is appropriate to give specific prominence to the interests of general and business aviation or indeed any other specific sector. For all airports, when demand is higher then capacity for finite take-off and landing slots, this is generally reflected in the fees charged. In a competitive market, an airport operator is likely to prefer to receive flights with large numbers of passengers over those with fewer passengers when this enhances its profits. The Bill will not impact the mechanism for setting airport charges at airports not deemed to have substantial market power, which is the vast majority of airports and airfields used by the general aviation community. This is a further policy reason not to pay special regard to general and business aviation.
However, the Government absolutely recognise the valuable contribution of the general and business aviation sector. The CAA’s Strategic Review of General Aviation in 2006 estimated its contribution to the UK economy at £1.4 billion per annum, a little less than the PWC report referred to—probably because different tests were applied—but still a very significant sum none the less. As noble Lords have observed, it delivers important services such as search and rescue, mail delivery, life-saving organ transport, law enforcement, aerial survey and environmental protection flights, as well as underpinning the training of future pilots. It also has growing economic importance for the European manufacturing industry. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my noble friends Lord Rotherwick, Lord Trefgarne and Lord Goschen, who miss no opportunity to promote the needs of general aviation.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned hot air balloons. I like seeing hot air balloons in the summer in the countryside, but my wife has declined to take a ride in one for the reasons that noble Lords have identified. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will know that aviation safety is covered by other legislation but is policed by the CAA as the safety regulator.
The Government are currently developing a long-term strategy for sustainable aviation in the UK. A formal consultation document is due to be published later this summer, when the general aviation community and other aviation stakeholders will be invited to comment. However, I believe that these amendments would create unnecessary ambiguity and ask my noble friend to withdraw or not to move them at the appropriate point.
Amendment 11 seeks to introduce a new clause after Clause 1 that would place a requirement on the CAA to publish a statement of policy setting out how it plans to carry out its functions as set out in Clause 1. I understand that the intention of this amendment may be to be ensure transparency in the CAA’s exercise of its new duties. The Bill as drafted provides a clear primary duty to end-users that the CAA supports. However, there are several reasons why I do not think this amendment will work in practice. First, the amendment as drafted requires the CAA to prepare and publish the statement of its policy with respect to carrying out its functions under Clause 1. However, the CAA has no functions under Clause 1; rather, Clause 1 sets outs the way in which it must carry out its functions under Chapter 1. The amendment as drafted would appear to have no effect. In view of this, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rotherwick
I thank all noble Lords who took part in this debate and I thank the Minister for his response, although it was not very helpful and rather disappointing. He was not able to offer me much comfort for my amendments. Bearing in mind what he said about consulting later on promoting and safeguarding airports, it would certainly be helpful to sit down with him and his Bill team to find out whether we could get additional comfort.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I would be delighted to continue to work closely with my noble friend on the issue of general aviation.
Lord Rotherwick
I am very grateful for that because it has taken us a generation to have vehicle for this and we do not want to miss it. Perhaps I could talk to him a bit later. I am interested in our not giving a negative statement to the European business community, saying that the UK is not open for aviation in all its diversity. As saturation takes up the three main airports, and then the next five, there needs to be an aviation infrastructure left for the rest of the aviation community to flow into. I thank the noble Lord for all his help on this and beg leave to withdraw.
Baroness Worthington
“( ) the need to ensure that the holder of a licence under this Chapter complies with applicable planning laws,”
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, in moving Amendment 4, I will speak also speak to Amendments 6, 7, 13A and 69, which have been grouped under the title of environmental amendments. I seek to reinstate environmental duties into the Bill. These amendments are not new and were tabled in the Commons. We have received some responses from the Government that have quite frankly been disappointing. The Bill, as noble Lords will know, started out under the previous Government. When we issued our consultation document in 2009 and our decisions document in December of that year, we made very clear that we intended to use such a Bill to introduce an environmental duty on the CAA.
It was, therefore, with great regret that we noticed that the current Bill does not contain such a duty. We understand that the Minister in the Commons Committee has given reasons why she believes that it should not be included, although it is rather odd for the so-called greenest Government ever to renege on or move away from environmental commitments. We would have thought that they would take every opportunity possible to introduce these duties, so it seems a little odd and the reasons given are not convincing.
The first reason given is that a primarily economic regulatory Bill is simply not the place to put environmental regulations. To that, I simply say that there are obvious precedents for creating environmental duties within economic regulatory instruments. Other bodies that have an impact on the environment such as the ORR, Ofgem, Ofgas and Ofwat all have secondary duties to take into account environmental concerns and sustainable development. As an example I will read the duty put on Ofgas, which has a duty to,
“have regard … to the effect on the environment of activities connected with the conveyance of gas through pipes … and to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development”.
It is, obviously, primarily an economic regulator, but it has, nevertheless, an environmental duty, because it is an activity that brings with it environmental issues. I do not see, therefore, that that reason holds, and it would be very good to hear from the Minister on whether the Government accept that there is no real difference between the CAA and other economic regulators, and to get an explanation of why it cannot also have an environmental duty.
The other reason given in response to some of these amendments might be that they apply only to the dominant airports. That is why we have included Amendment 69, which will come later, ahead of Clause 100, to give a general duty. We agree that it should not just be a matter for the dominant airports, but should be across the industry.
Yet another reason given for not accepting these amendments is that they are simply not needed. In fact, there are many people who disagree with that. When we were in government, we did not agree; as I have stated, we made it clear that we would put such duties into the Bill. Also, the Department for Transport’s press release of November 2011 did not seem to agree either. That—rather erroneously, as it turns out—stated that such a duty would be included, so it seemed odd that when the draft Bill was published it did not contain these environmental duties. Most recently, in January 2012 the Transport Committee made it clear that it also believed that it should be included. It stated:
“Without giving the CAA a supplementary duty on the environment in relation to its economic regulation role, there is some risk that airports may be reluctant to invest in improving environmental performance. Whilst, as the Minister says, there may be ‘absolutely no doubt’ about measures taken to comply with statutory environmental obligations, there remains a doubt about whether the costs of discretionary measures, such as improved public transport access, can be recovered by airports in charges to airlines”.
The crucial point is that we need to take discretionary spending into account here. There will be examples—civil groups such as Airport Watch have provided them—where airports may want to undertake voluntary measures to improve their environmental performance, but will seek to recover those costs. We need to maintain the CAA’s flexibility to allow them to do this. It is a very important point. We do not want to see a race to the bottom through cost-cutting at the expense of environmental measures. It is, therefore, important that these duties are established and, as I said, many people agree with us on this.
I turn now to Amendment 6, which relates not to the broader environmental duty to have regard to the environment, but is more specifically to do with carbon budgets. In this debate about aviation we cannot ignore the fact that this sector has a considerable environmental impact, that climate change is a real problem, and that there is cross-party consensus that we need to tackle it. So it is clearly important that we enlist all those sectors that contribute to our carbon budget to help in reducing it. It is absolutely imperative that we follow the advice of the Committee on Climate Change on including aviation in our carbon budgets. Having done that, we then need an industry and regulatory body that has environmental concerns and the meeting of those carbon budgets at its heart.
Lord Bradshaw
While not unsympathetic to what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, I think that the amendment in my name, which is shorter, takes up most of the points that she made and with which I agree. When the Minister replies, I would like him to be certain that the Marshalled List is correct. It says, “Page 2, line 12”. I am not sure that that is right. It would be a very small adjustment but it may not have been carried through correctly to the Marshalled List.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am in entire agreement with what my noble friend said. The impression that might be given is that the unions involved in aviation and aviation interests are unmindful of the environmental situation. A great deal of work has been done on environmental progress, as I well know, having served as president of BALPA for 29 years. I recall meetings of BALPA over the years, and this issue predominates in its influence on events. I know that a great deal of work has been done by aircraft manufacturers, who are not unmindful of their ill effects on the environment and take them into account. The next generation of aircraft will improve the effects of aviation on the environment in future—and so it will go on. This ought to be taken into account in the amendments being moved.
It is right that some emphasis should be given to the work being done on the environment and that it should be included in the legislation. What I can say without any possibility of contradiction is that the use of the word “environment” is not simply a byplay on words but the sign of a real concern, which has been expressed by British Airways, in particular, but also by other aviation interests. It would not be sensible for any aviation interest, whether the companies concerned or the trade unions, to suggest that they are not mindful of the ill effects of aviation on the environment. They are, and it figures very largely in what they have to say on this issue.
Lord Soley
I am also sympathetic to these amendments. If I was asked to choose one particular amendment, it would be Amendment 6, because it links up the key organisations, the National Air Traffic Services, the Committee on Climate Change and the department. It is better if we pinpoint what we want the CAA to do and whom it should work with on this, so that we get an overall approach. I support what my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis said; he has great and long experience in this regard.
The reality is that if you had asked the aviation industry 10 or 15 years ago, it would not have taken climate change anywhere near as seriously as it should have done. But it has woken up, and woken up fast. Because the aerospace industry is such an important scientific and technological driver, it has begun to leap ahead. So you now find, as the Minister will know from our several conversations when I have provided him with information on alternative fuels, most notably algae, that it and other drop-in fuels are actually good for the environment. There is real movement there. The new design of aircraft has made them much quieter and more powerful, so you get the A380, which requires a runway that is half the length of that required by the old 747, even though it was much smaller. It is quieter because it is quieter anyway and its fuel efficiency is particularly good. The effect of the emphasis by the aviation industry on improving has been great, and the airport operators have emphasised it too. I think I mentioned at Second Reading that when I spoke at the Airport Operators Association conference in about 2004, very few of them saw trying to reduce emissions from ground operations as a high priority. They now do, and they give it enormous importance. Look at what has been done at Heathrow with electric vehicles. They are all making efforts. However, I always put a cautionary note here because when we talk about electric propulsion, whether for trains, cars or any other operations, we have to remember that electricity in this country is predominantly produced from coal, oil and gas with some nuclear, so it is not as clean as we sometimes like to pretend it is.
Nor are we as good on noise. At Second Reading I mentioned the noise of the trains that went through my former constituency at 100 miles an hour, barely 50 or 100 feet from people’s front and back doors. That went on throughout the night 365 days a year. I have lived next to such railway lines, I have lived under the Heathrow flight path for over 30 years and I have lived by major roads in Glasgow, so I have experience of all of them. In many respects, aviation noise is a bit easier if it is reduced from time to time by runways and flights being switched.
Going back to the comment by my noble friend Lady Worthington on the emissions problem, some of the predictions that have been made about aviation in 50 years’ time are wildly wrong because they are based on the assumption that there will be no scientific development. If you take the scientific development that has been achieved now, leaving aside fuels and just looking at efficiency, you will get nowhere near the figures predicated in the horror scenarios. I say this as someone who has been worried about climate change for years—I wrote my first article on it in the early 1980s—but I have also seen how the green movement got things badly wrong on Brent Spar. It ignored the scientific advice on that and on nuclear power, which I saw as essential to get us out of the hole we were in.
I do not want to turn this into a long debate on the environment, but I want to say, as my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis have said, that if we give the CAA a duty to work with NATS, the department and the Committee on Climate Change we are getting quite a good link-up. We all know about the problem of air traffic control centres in Europe— I mentioned this at Second Reading, so I shall not speak about it at great length—but we have 10 times more than North America for a similar amount of airspace. There is a great fight in Europe about who has to close an air traffic control centre. Believe it or not, no country wants to close one, so we end up flying in doglegs across Europe, which increases fuel use. There is some very encouraging work being done on this, but it would be useful to have in the Bill a requirement to work with the organisations, especially that contained in Amendment 6, which is the amendment I prefer on this.
Earl Cathcart
I shall speak to the last three amendments in this group as they follow naturally from what I said at Second Reading. I support Amendments 7 and 13A—Amendment 13A has been substituted for Amendment 12—and will deal with them together as they are identical. It must be right for the CAA to have a duty to have regard to the impact of airports on the environment and local communities.
Chapter 1 sets out new arrangements for the economic regulation of dominant airports in the UK. These new arrangements were largely designed by Professor Cave, who the then Secretary of State appointed in 2009 to propose a new regulatory system for the UK’s airports. The Bill almost entirely follows his advice. I say “almost” because Cave recommended that the CAA, in its role as economic regulator, should have a supplementary duty,
“to have regard to the effect on the environment and on local communities of activities connected with the provision of airport services”.
This is missing from the Bill. As we heard at Second Reading and from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, every other comparable UK regulator has some form of statutory environmental duty. Why should there be an exception for the aviation industry, especially in view of the serious impacts that airport operations and air transport services can have on the environment and local communities?
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
I do not think that I will detain the Committee long because I could not possibly put my arguments better than they have just been put by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. He has made every single point that I wanted to make, succinctly and elegantly, which is marvellous for the Committee and not so bad for me.
I support these amendments, which were moved very ably by my noble friend Lady Worthington. In particular, I want to support Amendment 69 for the very reasons that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, gave. I felt that he put the points in exactly the way in which they needed to be put. This amendment would provide the CAA with a general duty, which would meet the objections that it would somehow be to the disadvantage of the regulated airports if they were subject to a particular kind of scrutiny by the CAA that was not going to be applied to the airports that are not regulated.
I declare an interest in that, very stupidly, I have chosen to live under two flight paths. I live in north Essex, under the flight path into Stansted, and in Dolphin Square, under the flight path into Heathrow. This was not good planning on my part, but it gives me the ability to make one particular point that the Minister knew that I might raise to do with noise.
Environmental issues can be understood very broadly or quite narrowly. What has been interesting about the whole debate this afternoon, from the outset, is that it has all been drawn towards this issue of environmental impacts. The first amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, which talked about surface access, was actually talking about the impact on passengers and local communities of insufficiently well developed infrastructure, which is an environmental impact. Noise is too, and my noble friend Lord Soley is quite right that if you live next to a railway line that goes all night, that is also disturbing. However, living under a flight path where so-called night flights really only stop between midnight and 4 am means that you lose a lot of sleep. There are a great many people who are adversely affected by that. That does not necessarily include me, as I am fortunate enough to be able to cope. However, people who are very ill, very young children or people who suffer from sleep disorders are going to be very adversely affected if noise pollution is not controlled effectively.
Emissions, which my noble friend Lady Worthington talked about with great authority, as one would expect her to do, are less easy for people to understand in their daily lives. You are not aware, on the whole, of the sort of damage that is being done to you as an individual by the aeroplane that is going over your head emitting toxic fumes that you cannot smell but which sure as heck are there. The same is true of the impact of surface transport around and in airports. The whole range of impacts that can be broadly said to be environmental is very wide, and I find it very hard to understand why the Government have so far resisted giving the CAA the general duty that Amendment 69 would give it. It gives rise to a slight suspicion that they may be susceptible to the wrong kind of pressure, possibly from the aviation industry—who knows?—rather than giving what most noble Lords in this Committee today appear to accept is proper consideration to the wider social and environmental impact of that industry’s activities.
I do not think, as my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis appears to believe, that the industry is unmindful of its environmental impact. I do not think that at all. Having lived under the flight path into Stansted for 10 years, I am aware that a huge amount of work has gone on in the development of aircraft, in respect of both noise and emissions and that there is a strong wish on the part of the industry, in its own interests and in those of the wider community, to continue developing, for example, better fuels, which my noble friend Lord Soley mentioned, and engines and airframes that are less likely to produce excessive noise.
I do not believe that in some way this is an opportunity to bash the aviation industry or not to accept that it has done a great deal already. However, there is much more to do. The danger that we stand in if the CAA does not have the kind of strengthened position that this amendment would give it is that the competition between airports that was talked about in earlier amendments will give rise to reluctance on the part of the industry to accelerate that work as quickly as it otherwise might. It will also, as the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, has already mentioned—
Lord Clinton-Davis
Beyond the work of the CAA, does my noble friend recognise that without any prompting the aviation industry and the trade unions concerned with aviation are all mindful of the ill effects on the ground? Is it not appropriate that a tribute should be paid to them for the work they have done and will do in future?
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
I believe I just did exactly that. As I already said, I am very well aware of the work that the industry has done and will continue to do in both its own interests and those of the wider community. I merely say that the aviation business is very competitive. There are strong pressures—which I do not suggest are venal in any way—on the airlines to compete with each other and on the airports to compete with each other. If the CAA was not properly equipped with the right regulatory powers, those pressures could lead to some of the reduction in environmental impacts that we would like to see not being achieved either as quickly as we would like or at all.
It seems to me that Amendment 69 in particular is quite modest. I did not draft it. I simply observe that it looks fairly straightforward. As the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, remarked, it is deliberately structured so as not to place an onerous duty on the CAA but to place an obligation on it where appropriate to exercise this particular power. The point that the noble Earl made about the protection that it offers the CAA is very important. Could the Minister explain to the Committee on what grounds—other than in the difference between the regulated and unregulated airports—the Government have resisted and I fear may continue to resist this particular amendment?
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I will be very interested to hear my noble friend’s response as to why the obligation contained in earlier legislation has not been repeated in the present Bill. I do not want to repeat what others have said. I, too, feel that Amendment 69 is likely to be the more acceptable of those in the group. One consequence if such an obligation were imposed is that it would go a long way to answer the question that I put to my noble friend at Second Reading on what Clause 84 is about. Clause 84 obliges the CAA to give all sorts of information. When I asked my noble friend at Second Reading what that meant, he said the Bill was,
“designed to require the CAA to publish such … information as it considers appropriate to draw passengers and freight owners into the Government’s wider efforts to address the environmental impact of aviation”.—[Official Report, 13/6/12; col. 1378.]
If the CAA does not have any sort of duty, I find that a very difficult paragraph to understand. Of course, as my noble friend Lord Cathcart said with eloquence, and as has been moved by the Opposition Front Bench, if the CAA had that duty then that would fall into place. It would be quite right, if it had that duty, that it should publish that information. The information by itself, without a duty, seems a pretty off way of drafting the legislation.
My noble friend the Minister was extremely good at answering several of the points that I raised at Second Reading but he did not quite have time to answer them all and he did not answer my question about what that paragraph in the Explanatory Note meant. I merely mention this as a consequence of the amendments to restore a duty to have regard to the environmental consequences of aviation and of the airlines.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Worthington said in her opening remarks, it is useful to reflect on some of the industries which are regulated in this respect and to reflect that these industries have, for their own rights and reasons and in order to comply with the regulator’s duty, made big improvements in the areas of emissions, noise, water, energy and construction. The rail industry has been required to reduce its diesel emissions, as has the road sector. I am not sure that it will be quite as easy to persuade some ship owners to change their fuel but the European Commission is intent on doing so. I am sure that it will happen one day and that it will be either voluntary or forced upon them. As my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said, the air industry has made significant improvements.
It would be odd if the Bill did not contain a requirement or duty on the CAA to take into account environmental matters. That does not mean that the air industry is particularly bad at doing so but there is evidence from other industries that, because of these regulatory duties, they probably try a little harder and in a way that they would not do otherwise.
I am inclined to support Amendment 69 but it is very important that we include something here so that there is commonality with some of the other regulators’ duties to consider environmental issues, and to encourage airports and the airline industry to go that little bit further.
Many noble Lords will recall the debates when the third runway was last on the agenda about the emissions from Heathrow and whether they were over the limit. Were they caused by emissions from the M4 running past on the north side or from the M25? There were many debates—I do not want to go into who was right and who was wrong—and one solution was to put the M4 in a tunnel. I cannot see the point of that because emissions will still take place in a tunnel and will have to come out somewhere. They might come out further away but, to me, that would be cheating. Again, this concerns the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, of including surface access, which I am sure will come up again.
However, matters have improved since then in the quality of emissions from the air and road industries. It is essential that something along the lines of the amendments is included in the Bill.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the issue of aviation and the environment was raised by several noble Lords during Second Reading. I am pleased to return to the matter again and to give further consideration to this important subject. I have not tabled a government amendment because I am reluctant to pre-empt the Committee’s consideration of this topic. However, I hope that when we have finished the Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will not be disappointed.
The noble Baroness almost fell into the trap of being political. She will know that we take environmental issues very seriously indeed and that that is why the coalition Government will not agree to a third runway at Heathrow. It is clearly for environmental reasons, particularly noise. This was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will state what her party’s policy is with regard to the third runway at Heathrow. Does she or does she not support it? I can assure your Lordships that I have listened to the points raised today and that I shall carefully read Hansard.
The point was raised about the drafting of the amendment. Yes, Amendment 13A was substituted for Amendment 12 on the Marshalled List.
Many noble Lords asked why other economic regulators have an environmental duty but not the CAA. Other economic regulators apply economic regulation across most or all of their respective industries, but the CAA regulates only the three London airports, as observed by my noble friend Lord Cathcart. Why should Manchester not be subject to environmental regulation while Gatwick is? If the CAA had an environmental duty, no noble Lord has explained to me, by way of example, what it would do with it that is not already done by some other means.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about the publication requirements in Clause 84. We are not quite there yet but I will write to my noble friend and, if necessary, he can table an amendment to Clause 84.
Lord Clinton-Davis
The noble Earl has referred to Clause 84, which is highly desirable apart from one feature. It would be helpful to allude to that now. Why does the CAA have to divulge environmental information only if it considers it appropriate?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is for the CAA to work out whether it is in the public interest to publish the information.
I recognise the value of noble Lords’ contributions, particularly those of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart. They made very important points and some of the technical points made by the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, were very interesting. I share the concerns about the environmental impacts of airport operations and wider aviation. The coalition takes the environmental impacts of aviation very seriously, as I have explained.
Each of these amendments seeks to add to the Bill supplementary duties that relate to environmental or planning issues. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 13A seek to add supplementary duties to the CAA and the Secretary of State’s airport economic regulation functions, whereas Amendment 69 seeks to add an overarching duty for all the CAA’s functions, including airport economic regulation. This would create a tension with the CAA’s primary duty in Clause 1(1).
I turn first to the amendments that would provide the possibility of the CAA having an overarching environmental duty. The idea is not a new one. The previous Government consulted on a general environmental objective for the CAA, along with parallel proposals for a general consumer and safety objective. No clear support for a general environmental objective was evident. This flowed from Sir Joseph Pilling’s review of the CAA. The responses to the consultation were mixed and did not show clear support for a general environmental objective. For example, concern was expressed about ensuring a clear boundary between environmental policy, which was seen as the role of the Government, and the role of an expert aviation regulator, where safety was seen as the priority. After all, the Environment Agency is the body responsible for regulating environmental issues.
Lord Soley
I am looking again at Clause 84. The Minister has indicated that he wants to help the Committee on this issue. When he responds on this at a later stage, will he consider whether Clause 84(2) could apply to all airports? It states:
“The CAA may publish guidelines and advice with a view to reducing, controlling or mitigating adverse environmental effects on civil aviation in the United Kingdom”.
In a way, it refers to the whole of the UK and I am not sure why, with a bit of tweaking, Clause 84 could not cover some of the points that we have made.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
May I follow up the point that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, has just made? My noble friend invited me earlier to table amendments when we get to Clause 84. I do not wish to amend Clause 84, but I need to know the context in which the information requirements and powers that will be given by that clause will operate. If, as has been suggested by other Members of the Committee, there should be a duty on the CAA, perhaps the clause is all right. If we are to reach the next stage of the Bill without having a government amendment on the Marshalled List that says what is happening to the general power, it is quite difficult to know what to do.
My interpretation is that while my noble friend has rehearsed some of the questions and objections, he is not shutting his mind to this. The possibility remains, therefore, that there will be a government amendment before Report, in which case we can look at Clause 84 in the light of that government amendment. However, if there is no such government amendment by that time, it is very difficult to see what else you could do to Clause 84. The point I made is that these things hang together.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I assure the Committee that I have a very well thought-out speech. I believe that the upcoming aviation policy framework, due to be adopted by March 2013, represents a more proportionate and effective way for the Government to address the environmental impacts across the aviation sector as a whole. As I have said, this Government take seriously the environmental impacts of all airports. With regard to the other amendments, several of these have been extensively debated in the other place, and the Government’s position on these remains unchanged.
First, I turn to Amendment 4. As your Lordships will be aware, the previous Government decided to include a similar duty to that contained in Amendment 10. However, in practice the supplementary duty would have no substance, so the Secretary of State decided in July 2010 to omit it. This is because the duty as drafted would appear to require the CAA, in discharging its primary duty, to take account of the licence holder’s obligation to comply with planning obligations. It is not for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to enforce planning law through licence conditions. In so far as a licence condition purported to require the licence holder to breach planning law or otherwise act in breach of planning law, it would appear to be unlawful. Regardless of whether the CAA had this explicit duty or not, the CAA will need to have proper regard to the airport’s obligation to comply with all applicable legal obligations, including planning law.
Amendment 6, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, covers climate change. While important, this is also unnecessary because other policies seek to achieve it. Separately, the Government have committed to producing a sustainable framework for UK aviation that supports economic growth and addresses aviation’s environmental impacts. In addition, there are other policies, such as the European Union Emissions Trading System, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness when she touched on efficiency issues. Furthermore, this amendment would appear to go beyond airport economic regulation and it is unclear how the CAA would go about fulfilling this duty—a point I made earlier.
However, the Government have some sympathy with the thinking behind the remaining amendments—that is, Amendments 5, 7 and 13A. In particular, this debate allows us to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them. Without a doubt, this Government support the idea that airport operators—whether or not they are subject to economic regulation—should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This concern was frequently raised in the House of Commons. However, obligations should not be put on some airports but not others depending on their economic regulatory status.
Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover, through the regulatory settlements, costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes and be able to recover those costs. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would otherwise occur in a competitive market. Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in the passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be included in an airport’s regulatory settlement. This is a point on which more clarity could be provided in the Bill.
However, I am hesitant to accept these amendments today because I believe that it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. Furthermore, we need to ensure that the drafting does not have the capacity to create distorting effects by putting greater obligations on regulated airports relative to non-regulated airports. With the assurance that I will consider these matters in detail ahead of Report, I hope noble Lords will be willing to withdraw Amendment 4, and not press Amendments 6 and 69. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A—
Lord Berkeley
The Minister gave a very interesting speech and I congratulate him. He mentioned some or all environmental issues, but is that not moving into a rather dangerous area of lists and what goes into a list? Are you going to include bats but not tadpoles, or noise and things like that? I hope that he will take into account that it is very dangerous to produce lists of these things because you might leave things out or add things in that you subsequently do not want.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes a very good point, and I am sure that my officials will not let me go too far. However, I am willing to consider Amendments 5, 7 and 13A in greater detail, with a view to returning to the matter on Report. I would find further meetings with noble Lords extremely valuable.
While I appreciate the spirit in which noble Lords have proposed these amendments today, as I have said, there are a few reasons why I am hesitant to accept them now. Interested parties have made it clear that the CAA should not be the environmental regulator. If such duties were to be imposed, I also believe it would be desirable to specify some or all of the environmental effects to which the CAA must have regard. With the assurance that I will consider this matter in detail ahead of Report, I hope that the noble Baroness and other noble Lords will be able to withdraw and not to press their amendments.
Baroness Worthington
I thank the Minister for his comments. I am encouraged that he anticipates that I will not be disappointed and that he will consider further a number of the amendments. I come back to a few of the things that he mentioned. It would seem odd not to introduce such a duty because it would apply to only 55% of the market and not 100%. Clearly, 55% is better than nothing. I know that he will say that it is about competitive distortions, but let us be honest—I think that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, made this clear—those three airports have a distinct advantage over the others in terms of scale. They are off the scale in comparison to the other airports. There are many other environmental regulations that have this differentiation between the smaller and larger, dominant operators. There are often lots of de minimis thresholds put into regulations to account for the difference in scale. I really do not see that as a problem, and I urge the Government to go through with the 55% if they are very keen on environmental issues, which they say they are.
I wonder—and this may be something that we can meet about—whether Amendment 69 does not help to address this question by creating a more general duty that would cover all of the CAA’s operations. I can understand the question of how CAA would operationalise it, given that it does not license the other operators, but I am sure that it is not beyond our wit to be able to work through that.
The Minister talked about planning and said that he could not understand what it would be used for. I echo the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in saying that we are trying to prevent a legal challenge and to give the CAA cover if it chooses to apply its discretion and include discretionary spending within the regulated asset base. So it would be used as a defensive measure against being forced not to include environmental measures. There are other things that relate specifically to planning. Often planning approvals include Section 106 agreements—additional obligations to which a developer voluntarily agrees. So they might not be caught within a very strict interpretation of the law, because they are very often quite loosely worded. So there are some questions there about planning.
I pay tribute to my noble friends and other noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has been a good debate and I am very encouraged. We all recognise, as my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Soley and Lady McIntosh have accepted, that the aviation industry should not be singled out for not embracing the environment. It clearly does move forward on a voluntary basis. That is exactly what we are trying to say here: we want to enable and allow this voluntary move towards a more efficient, cleaner and more environmentally responsible industry. We do not want this Bill to stop that. That is a very important point. We are not saying the sector does not wish to move. I am sure it does, given all the pressures that it is under.
My noble friend Lord Berkeley raised the point, which we have made before, that other sectors are regulated with environmental duties. He specifically mentioned rail as an example. Rail often competes directly with the aviation sector when it comes to short-haul flights and it seems odd that rail should have an environmental duty but aviation not. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, raised some very important points about other elements of the Bill, in particular Clause 84 and how that relates to the duties that we hope will be created. My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis talked about the fact that the aircraft and aviation industry wish to respond. I hope I have captured most of the contributions and I thank the noble Earl for his encouraging words. I look forward to something being brought forward by the Government and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this is an opportunity to debate a rather more mundane amendment compared with the ones we have just been discussing. This amendment and Amendment 14 in the group delete the references in Clause 1(4)(b) and Clause 2(5)(b) to the principle in the general duties of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State respectively that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
Clause 1(4)(a) and Clause 2(5)(a) both state that,
“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.
It is not entirely clear why either Clause 1(4)(b) or Clause 2(5)(b) is needed. Under subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a), regulatory activities should be carried out in a way that is proportionate, but surely it would not be proportionate if those regulatory activities were targeted at cases in which action was not needed. To do so would surely not be proportionate and would therefore be outside the terms of subsections (4)(a) and (5)(a). If the Minister is not inclined to accept my point that the subsection that this amendment deletes is unnecessary, it would be helpful if he could indicate why and also give some examples of regulatory activities that would be proportionate even though they were being targeted at cases where action was not needed. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, this is an important pair of amendments because surely the regulator is independent and should therefore be able to make its own decisions about whether it carries out an investigation and, if so, what action it takes following the transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent rules. If both paragraphs (b) mentioned in these amendments are included, I can see some companies being regulated starting legal challenges to suggest that they do not need to be regulated and that it is going to be very expensive for them and asking why should they answer this question. I understand that the Government have a deregulation agenda and are trying to get rid of unnecessary regulations, quangos and everything else, but this indicates that the company being regulated will be able to put pressure on the regulator in an unsatisfactory way. It is quite clear from paragraph (a) that,
“transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”,
set out how it would do it. Paragraph (b) is rather dangerous. It will be difficult for the CAA not to get involved in it, and I am not sure why it needs to be there. Perhaps the Minister can explain.
Lord Clinton-Davis
On the face of it, paragraph (b) is otiose. I have dealt with several cases in the sub-committee investigating legislation, of which I am a member. It is incumbent upon the Minister to say why this provision is included.
Lord Empey
Does the Minister feel that these two paragraphs could leave the CAA open to judicial review by disgruntled operators? They are adding something unclear with the definition of what is and is not needed. It may be intended to prevent overzealous application of restrictions on operators, but these days, one always has to look at the potential for judicial review, and I suspect that the way this is drafted might leave the CAA open. It might be possible to amend the first paragraph to meet the needs of the Government, but I hope the Minister will address the legal issue.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I must admit that I am puzzled by these amendments. I take it that they are merely probing amendments, but they are certainly not mundane. They seek to weaken the principles that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to when discharging their economic regulation functions. Specifically, they seek to remove the need to have regard to the principle that regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed. To this extent, the amendment may inadvertently facilitate or encourage excessive regulation, and I am sure that the Committee will agree that that is clearly not desirable. I ask noble Lords to oppose these amendments today because they would remove provisions in the Bill that strengthen the adherence of the CAA and the Secretary of State to good economic regulation practice.
This first amendment seeks to delete one of the principles that the CAA must have regard to in performing its duties under subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1, which sets out the CAA’s general duty. That principle is that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
The second amendment makes the same provision for the Secretary of State’s duties.
The principles set out in Clause 1(4) and Clause 2(5) are those that the Better Regulation Task Force defined in 1997 as in keeping with good regulation. They were that good regulation should be transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent, and targeted.
These principles are not in the Bill by accident. They are a well recognised starting point and one looks to encourage those responsible for economic regulation to apply them appropriately. Having provisions in legislation that reflect these principles is sensible and makes clear what is expected of regulators. It is not only desirable but good practice to have these provisions to encourage the CAA to discharge its Clause 1 functions in a manner that discourages unnecessary regulation.
It is known that economic regulation is an imperfect intervention. It should be used only where an unregulated market fails to deliver competitive outcomes. However, used appropriately, it can be an effective tool. The provisions in Clauses 1(4) and 2(5) ensure that this is the case in the Civil Aviation Bill. Furthermore, as an experienced regulator, the CAA is not troubled by having regard to the principles set out in Clause 1(4)(b). Indeed, it considers it sound regulatory practice, as do the Government.
Lord Clinton-Davis
It would be convenient for the Committee if the Minister would say that he will have another look at this particular provision because, notwithstanding what he has said, it is not sensible.
Lord Berkeley
Perhaps I may press the Minister a little more on the text in paragraph (b). On what basis does the CAA or the Secretary of State decide that action is needed? Surely they have to investigate before they can come to a conclusion. It seems a circular process.
Earl Attlee
Yes. However, we are talking about the principle of regulation that you do not do things that are unnecessary: you target your effort at a problem. If there is not a problem, you leave it alone.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether the subsections could leave the CAA open to JR. These are secondary, subordinate obligations to which the CAA must have regard. Provided the CAA turns its mind to these matters and considers them, it will, prima facie, have complied with the obligation.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and other noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate.
The Minister said that he will look at Hansard to see what point I was making. To reiterate, the question I am raising is: what is the necessity for the two paragraphs that my amendment seeks to delete? Paragraph (b) states that,
“regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.
That comes after paragraph (a), which states that,
“regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent”.
I appreciate that the Minister has said that he will look at the question and respond but, to reiterate the question that I asked, how can something be proportionate if it is a regulatory activity targeted at a case in which action is not needed? Surely, by definition, if regulatory action is not needed and you take regulatory action, that cannot be proportionate.
I am happy to leave it in the context that the Minister will look at the point I have raised and respond to me. I would be grateful for that. I am asking a genuine question. We are all interested in making sure that there is no unnecessary verbiage in legislation, which is the point I am making about the two paragraphs that the amendment proposes should be deleted. However, in the context that the Minister will look at the issue and write to me, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
This is by nature a probing question. I apologise to the Committee for not having been here at Second Reading. I am confused and I am sure that the Minister can help my confusion. We are talking here about an economic regulation of possibly three airports around London. Clearly there are issues of competition for businesses within specific airports, and from the way I read it that is clearly in the Bill. I am slightly surprised that there is nothing in it—that I can see—about competition between airports. If Stansted is sold, you will have three different owners of the three major operators, as well as Luton. We are talking about economic regulation and I would have thought that the Bill must include, in addition to the things that are there, regulation of slots and charges and consideration of dominant position. I know that we will come on to that last issue later.
What is the market in which the dominant position is supposed to be considered? The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, in his remarks on Amendment 1, listed a number of airports within the London or south-east area. I think that he forgot Southend International, which is now marketing itself as an international airport, and Manston and other similar airports. It is a question of how these would be considered. What is within the scope of the CAA on these issues given that we have dominant areas and dominant airports? As I read it, there are the three main airports around London that we have just mentioned, but Luton is pretty big and there are others. It seems odd to put this into the legislation without some explanation. An explanation would help me, but I apologise if this has already been explained at Second Reading.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord mentioned slots. These are regulated by the world slot guidelines and, in Europe, by the EU slot regulations. They are implemented by Airport Coordination Limited in the UK. The Government do not and cannot have a role in slot allocation.
Lord Berkeley
If there appears to be a dominant position in slots, does that come under the CAA or the Government? Is there any competition authority, or is it completely outside?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is clearly a competition issue. I am not certain about it but I will write to the noble Lord.
Clause 5 defines what comprises a “dominant airport area” and a “dominant airport”. Under subsection (3), “airport area” means an area that consists of or forms part of an airport, including land and buildings. This provision is included to allow for the possibility of there being more than one operator at an individual airport. This could be the case if, for example, an airline acquired or leased a terminal building. As there can be more than one airport area at an airport, it follows that there can be more than one operator of an airport area at an airport.
Subsection (1) states that an airport area is dominant if the CAA has made a determination that the market power test is met in relation to the area and publishes a notice to that effect. Subsection (2) provides that an airport is dominant if all or part of its core area is a dominant area or part of a dominant area. Subsection (4) describes what comprises a core area. Broadly speaking, the core area includes runways and associated facilities, passenger terminals and cargo processing areas. It follows from that that non-core airport areas include car parks with pedestrian access to the terminal building, or the forecourt of a passage in the terminal, including pick-up and drop-off points. Therefore, if the only dominant airport area at airport X comprised the pick-up and drop-off points, airport X would not be a dominant airport because no part of the core area would comprise or be included in a dominant area. We should remember that the core area is the runways, associated facilities, passenger terminals and so on.
In such circumstances, no part of the airport could be subject to regulation. The underlying thinking is to ensure that no part of an airport should be subject to regulation unless some part of the core area is dominant. This construction is required to prevent unnecessary regulation where there is a problem only with peripheral areas. This distinction between core and non-core airport areas is necessary to ensure that the CAA regulates ancillary airport operation services only where some or all of the core area of the airport is dominant; it is unable to exercise regulatory control over core areas where only non-core areas are dominant.
Allowing for more than one operator at an airport differs from the approach used in the Airports Act 1986, which refers to an airport operator as,
“the person for the time being having the management of an airport, or, in relation to a particular airport, the management of that airport”.
That Act does not include provision about cases in which there is more than one operator of an airport. I make clear to the Committee that there are no powers in this clause to introduce intra-airport competition. Rather, the clause allows for the possibility that competition may be introduced within our airports—for example, inter-terminal competition. These provisions are included to keep open the option of competition within airports in future.
The Competition Commission has previously expressed interest in this concept and suggested that the,
“legislation … should allow for terminals to be developed or redeveloped and to be operated separately from runway facilities, where appropriate”.
While the Competition Commission has no present intention to impose such intra-airport competition, it is supportive of keeping the option open for the future. We therefore need to ensure that the regulatory framework is capable of operating in the event that inter-terminal competition becomes a feature of the UK airport sector. By including it in the Bill, we avoid the need for a future Government to have to return to Parliament for fresh primary legislation.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that very clear, if somewhat complex, explanation. If I have it right, a core area has to include the landing and take-off runways. I cannot see how more than one landing and take-off runway can be owned in one airport. If Heathrow separated the ownership of the north and south runways, then you would have some competition. However, if the core area has to include the landing and take-off, surely it would be impossible to have competition within any of the airports in the south-east. Have I misunderstood this? I would be grateful if the Minister could explain further.
Earl Attlee
I do not know whether or not the noble Lord has misunderstood. I suspect that he will have to read what I have said very carefully in order to understand it.
Earl Attlee
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 16 and 23. These three amendments are being taken together. Collectively, they will ensure that the CAA must have regard to the extensive guidance and advice published by the EU and UK competition authorities, for example the Office of Fair Trading.
We have been reflecting on comments made in the other place regarding the definition of “substantial market power” in the Bill. In particular, during debates in Committee in the other place, points were made that there could be some uncertainty regarding how the CAA might assess “substantial market power”. Although we believe that the definitions and specific meanings of the terms relating to market power that are used in the Bill are clear, we see merit in providing more clarity that the CAA must have regard to relevant competition guidance when carrying out the market power test.
Clause 6(1) states that market power test is met in relation to the airport area only if the CAA is satisfied that tests A, B and C are all met by the operator of that airport area. These tests are designed to ensure that operators of airport areas are subject to economic regulation only if under test A,
“the … operator has, or is likely to acquire, substantial market power in a market, either alone or taken with … other persons”,
under test B, general,
“competition law does not provide sufficient protection against the risk that the … operator may engage in conduct that amounts to an abuse of substantial market power”,
and under test C,
“the benefits of regulating the … operator … are likely to outweigh”
the costs.
On a previous amendment, I was asked what the market is. A market for airport operation services could be as narrow as the baggage handling services at Heathrow Terminal 5, or as wide as airport operation services at airports in London and the south-east. Other examples of airport operation services include the provision of airport facilities for car parking, facilities for shops and ground handling services.
The term “substantial market power” in test A is the term used in the current criteria that the Secretary of State applies when making designation decisions on whether an airport should be subject to price control. It is well understood and accepted in this context. The previous Government consulted on the wording of this limb and the other limbs of the test for whether an airport should be subject to economic regulation. In light of that consultation, we see no reason to change the wording. In carrying out test A, the CAA expects to follow the guidelines published by UK competition authorities—for example the Office of Fair Trading and the European Commission—for the assessment of market power. This amendment will put that beyond doubt. These are generic guidelines for use in any industry and provide a useful starting point for assessing the degree of competition faced by an airport. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Earl for that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an issue about being subject to price control, he is talking about baggage handling, car parking and things like that rather than the price of slots, which I think he said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his confirmation of that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
The Minister will, no doubt, give an answer to that in just a moment. I am grateful to him for these amendments. As he said, there was considerable anxiety in the other place when discussing the concept of the dominant market. I am still trying to get my head round the position in respect of baggage at Heathrow being a dominant market, but will take the Minister’s word for that. I certainly accept the other extreme he put forward: all the airports in the south-east. We appreciate that, with these amendments, the Minister has helped to reassure us over the anxieties that were expressed in the other place. We all appreciate that it is not easy to get to this definition and that considerable efforts have been made. At first, I thought the cross-reference to the European Commission looked a bit like overkill, but the Minister is making sure he has belt and braces with regard to this, in response to the challenges that were made in the other place. I am quite sure my colleagues there will join me in thanking him for these amendments and accepting that they go a considerable way to allaying past anxieties and help the Bill.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right that it is not the price of slots. The price of slots has an economic value, but it is not regulated.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I believe this is a convenient moment to adjourn this Committee until Monday at 3.30 pm.
House of Lords
Young People: Parenthood
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the Government are committed to supporting good parenting, but we do not believe that it is the Government’s role to tell parents exactly how to raise their children. As such, we are funding services that offer advice and support to all parents, but we do not plan to prescribe how or what skills schools need to teach their pupils, or to test pupils’ knowledge about parenting when they leave school.
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that amount of comfort, but does he not agree that responsibility for the quality of parenting in our society is basically shared between the parents of the child and the state in its various forms and through its various agencies? It is essential that parents should understand the responsibilities for which they are responsible. The obvious place for them to learn that is in secondary school as they grow up. However, as the noble Lord confirmed when I asked a Question on 17 May, the Government are determined that secondary schools should not be obliged to teach parenting skills. I hope that I can persuade the Government to think again on this subject, both on the question of whether those skills should be taught in school, and secondly on the urgent need for a cadre of teachers to be developed that is skilled in dealing with that subject.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree very much with the point the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, makes about the importance of parenting. He is absolutely right that schools can play an extremely important part in helping to prepare young people and helping them to understand some of the issues that he discusses. Our difference of opinion is over the degree of prescription that there should be. As he knows, rather than adding things to the national curriculum, we are trying to take things out of it, partly to provide more space for the teaching of these sorts of issues that he refers to.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, while welcoming the Government’s recent statement that they intend to try to ensure that when a family breaks up, both parents have the opportunity to fulfil their parental responsibilities to the child—after all, that is the child’s right—will my noble friend the Minister confirm that in any legislation the safety and best interests of the child will remain upfront and centre?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My noble friend is exactly right in both her points. We should try to have a legislative framework whereby the involvement of both parents in the upbringing of children is made as easy as possible. She is absolutely right that the core and underlying interest in all this legislation is to make sure that the interests of the child are at the heart of whatever arrangements one makes.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
My Lords, is the Minister able to reassure the House that any of the money that is being committed to spending on vouchers for parenting will be spent exclusively on evidence-based programmes that we know work?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I believe that the parenting trials to which the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, refers are being delivered by well established and well respected providers. It is important that what is provided is, as far as possible, evidence-based. I take that point. If I can find out more information about who the providers operating the trials are, I will make sure that the noble Baroness has it.
Lord Cormack
Could we gently say to our young people in schools that the best preliminary for parenthood is marriage?
Lord Hill of Oareford
We should say many things to young children in schools. For all education, my starting point would be the importance of English and maths. A decent grounding in those matters is most likely to lead children to have successful lives, and many of the desirable outcomes that we all want from education are more likely to appear.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, while I accept that English and maths are extremely important, does the Minister accept that the public have an interest in the upbringing of children, because if children are not well brought up we pay for it in all sorts of ways? Consequently, in so far as citizenship or anything akin to citizenship is taught in schools, will the Minister not consider whether parenting should be part of citizenship?
Lord Hill of Oareford
Certainly, I agree with the noble and learned Baroness’s underlying point that we all have a shared interest in making sure that children are brought up as well as possible. It is a point that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, made as well, so we have a common interest. On the specific point about citizenship and the content of that within the curriculum, as the noble and learned Baroness will know we are looking at the whole question of the national curriculum. I will relay her point to my honourable friend Mr Gibb for him to reflect on.
The Lord Bishop of Liverpool
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the Children’s Society’s Good Childhood report in which parenting features considerably? Is he further aware of the number of primary schools that already offer parenting courses for pupils’ parents? Is his department able to tell us how many schools across the country offer such parenting classes?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I do not know how many schools offer that and I do not know how easy it would be to find out, but I will certainly ask the question. I am aware of how much work is being done in primary and secondary schools and the way in which many schools, particularly primary schools, are finding ways of bringing parents into schools and educating them at the same time as the children. I agree with him on the importance of schools developing ways of encouraging that.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, given the changes in the benefits regime and the ideas being floated over the past few days about further changes that will affect in particular young people and their lifestyles, and given what the Minister has already said about not moving on parenting advice, will he say whether there is any intention to draw these changes to the attention of young people? Will he also say whether some thought might be given to giving some well placed advice on servicing tax liabilities and responsibilities at some point, too?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, it seems to me that all those matters could be considered and taught within the existing PSHE framework in schools.
Poverty: Developing Countries
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Loomba
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to support widows who live in poverty in developing countries.
Lord Loomba
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I take the opportunity to declare an interest as founder and chairman trustee of the Loomba Foundation.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, widows and their children are among the poorest and most vulnerable in societies across the world. The Government have put girls and women at the heart of their development assistance. We provide targeted support to widows at country level and through programmes supporting women’s economic, social and political empowerment more broadly.
Lord Loomba
I thank my noble friend the Minister for her Answer and I am grateful for the consideration that the Government have given to this Question. However, the Answer does not tell the whole story. Does the Minister recall that the UN has designated 23 June as International Widows’ Day as a global day of action to end all discrimination against widows, to facilitate wide economic empowerment, and to enable them to enjoy their full human rights? Does the Minister accept that part of future aid budgets relating to women should be ring-fenced for widows who suffer discrimination and disadvantages?
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend for all his work in this area, in particular through the Loomba Trust, which supports widows and their children in many developing countries, and for his work in securing that UN designated day for widows on 23 June. I recognise his point about double discrimination. Although it would not be appropriate to ring-fence money specifically for widows, it is extremely important that we identify in-country those women who are suffering from that double discrimination in the way that he indicates so that they can be supported.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, ever since the inception of the Loomba Foundation in 1988 by Raj Loomba, I have chaired its advisory council. On International Widows’ Day on Saturday, 23 June, the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, made the best speech that I have ever heard him give.
Lord Bilimoria
In that speech, he asked why no one had highlighted the plight of widows around the world until Raj Loomba did all those years ago. Can the Minister tell us what the Government’s priorities are, where DfID is concerned, in the billions of pounds of aid that we give every year to help the 245 million widows and the 500 children, particularly with the education of poor widows’ children around the world?
Baroness Northover
I am glad that the noble Lord heard yet another stunning speech from my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. Of course, my right honourable friend was quite right, as is the noble Lord, that the Loomba Foundation has done a huge amount in emphasising the particular challenges faced by widows through double discrimination. As my noble friend mentioned in the previous Question in relation to the United Kingdom, it is absolutely right that education is so important in terms of children’s prospects. We recognise that internationally as we as we do nationally. We are especially aware that when somebody is widowed or loses their partner for any other reason, it is girl children in particular who suffer. That is why DfID emphasises the support of girl children.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, about 40 per cent of adult women in the eastern Congo are widows. Many of them have suffered from sexual violence during the conflicts that have occurred in that region. What are the Government doing as part of our bilateral aid programme to the DRC to ensure that the rights of those widows to shelter, security and in particular to land are able to be used by them in a way that gives them the opportunity to rebuild their lives following the conflicts in that area over the past 30 years?
Baroness Northover
The noble Lord is right. DfID does indeed identify the particular problems of widows in the DRC and has programmes to support them. Again, he is right that widows often lose their land when widowed, and one of the programmes that DfID is carrying out not only in the DRC but elsewhere is to support the rights of women in that situation to land when widowed.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I think it is a very good thing that the Government are supporting—
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
We have not had a question from the Conservative Benches.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I think that it is the turn of my noble friend Lady Gardner.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Returning to my point, I was for many years the chairman of the UK branch of PLAN International, which has a programme of helping to educate children and also provides great help to widows in many countries. I am glad that the Minister mentioned that the Government are doing what they can but one very big problem arises in countries where all inheritance goes to a male relative. Women find that they suddenly have nothing because their husband’s brother or one of their husband’s brother’s sons has inherited everything. I hope that she will press the Governments of the world on this matter. I think that Uganda has changed this law and that has made a dramatic difference to women. Will she press Commonwealth countries and other countries in general to look into this further?
Baroness Northover
My noble friend is right, and it follows on from the previous Question about equal rights, whether to land or other property. I do not know what hereditary Peers would make of that. Nevertheless, that is what we support.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
My Lords, can the Minister give at least some detail of specific DfID policies designed to tackle the abuse and discrimination faced by widows of all ages, their children and their grandchildren, for whom they are often also responsible? The Minister mentioned focusing on women and girls but are the challenges faced by widows an integral part of DfID’s policy? Finally, what specific data does DfID have on the situation of widows and their daughters, and will she place those data in the Library of the House?
Baroness Northover
I will answer the noble Baroness in detail through a letter but I can tell her and noble Lords that DfID has programmes in Rwanda, Pakistan, India and the DRC, as well as elsewhere, targeted specifically at widows. However, given the time, I shall write to her with many more details.
Armed Forces: Discrimination
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Tunnicliffe
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the levels of discrimination against serving and former members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)
My Lords, the Armed Forces covenant sets out the principles that those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve, those who have served in the past and their families should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most, such as the injured and the bereaved. Any discrimination against members of the Armed Forces community is to be abhorred, and we will continue to be alert to any cases which are brought to our attention. I believe that the vast majority of the population are hugely supportive of those who defend them.
Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I agree with the Minister about that wide support. Saturday is Armed Forces Day. It will be a day of celebration. Never in recent times has the level of approval of the Armed Forces been so high. Nevertheless, despite the efforts of both parties, some members of the Armed Forces still have problems. The splendid report of the noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft—I never thought that I would find myself saying that—found that in the past five years 20% have suffered verbal abuse, 5% have suffered violence or attempted violence, 18% have been refused service in hotels, pubs and elsewhere when wearing the uniform in the UK, and more than 25% have been refused a mortgage, loan or credit card. My right honourable friend Jim Murphy, the shadow Secretary of State, wrote to the Secretary of State on 27 May to urge him to hold cross-party talks on how to end discrimination against our Armed Forces and their families, including the option of introducing new legal protections for the services community. Will the Minister assure the House that this request will receive the fullest possible consideration?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, we thank my noble friend Lord Ashcroft for his very helpful report and are reassured by the high level of support for the Armed Forces that he mentions. The report provides pointers to areas requiring attention. We believe that education rather than legislation is the most effective way to combat discrimination. We can lead this if we work together on a cross-party basis in Parliament to celebrate the contribution of our Armed Forces. An example of this is having troops marching into Parliament on their return from Afghanistan and being given refreshments and tours by MPs and noble Lords. This is the initiative of the All-Party Group for the Armed Forces. In his letter to Jim Murphy, the Secretary of State said:
“I would welcome a discussion with you on how we can ensure that everything we do in Parliament emphasises our cross-party support for the Armed Forces and the people who serve in them”.
Lord Addington
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is not now that is the problem, as the Armed Forces have a high profile since they are engaged in combat and we have casualties coming back? We must do something that guarantees that we continue to take an interest when this conflict is over because discrimination usually increases during times of ignorance. Peace in Afghanistan may well bring this.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. The problem exists not just in the present but in the future. I entirely agree with him.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the worst discrimination I ever suffered was shortly after meeting my wife, when she told me that the two most useless things in a sailing boat are an umbrella and a naval officer. Joking aside, the Minister referred to education. We need to educate young people about the importance of the services and one of the best ways of doing that is the cadet forces. Are we going to put more effort into getting CCF and other units into a broader spectrum of schools to try to encourage this?
Lord Astor of Hever
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question. The answer is yes, we are working very hard on that and we may have more to say on the issue in the days to come.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
My Lords, what advice and guidance would the Minister give to service personnel who find themselves in difficulties as a result of direct discrimination?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, first, I would tell them to get in contact with their chain of command, which will work closely with the civil police or other bodies, as appropriate, to address any problem. I understand one of the problems that they encounter is with mortgage lenders. Service personnel facing credit-rating difficulties because of time spent abroad should approach prospective mortgage lenders, and all prospective landlords or letting agents, to instruct their credit reference-checking agencies to undertake a manual check of the individual circumstances.
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde
Does the Minister agree that discrimination can take many forms? With the repositioning of Armed Forces personnel from Germany over the coming years, one area of concern may well be about the opportunity for their children to have access to the schools that their parents want them to go to and to get on the doctor’s list in the area that they wish. Does he agree that we may need to review the covenant, which is an extremely good initiative, to ensure that the families of Armed Forces personnel are not indirectly discriminated against?
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very good point about children’s education and doctors. This is an area that we are looking at very closely.
Lord Astor of Hever
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. A great deal can be done by local communities. Community covenants are voluntary statements of mutual support between the civilian community and its local Armed Forces community in the form of a written pledge. These local partnerships are usually made between the Armed Forces in an area and the local authority and joined by local business organisations, charities and other public bodies as appropriate.
Care Homes
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Wheeler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take in the light of the finding of the Care Quality Commission’s recent unannounced inspections of care homes and treatment centres for people with learning disabilities, that around half of those inspected were not meeting essential standards of care.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the CQC’s findings show unacceptable levels of care. On Monday a Department of Health report set out 14 national actions to improve care and support for people with learning disabilities or autism and behaviours that challenge. All parts of the health and care system have a role to play in driving up standards, stopping abuse and transforming local services.
Baroness Wheeler
My Lords, in its inspection of care homes and assessment centres in the light of the serious abuse and appalling standards of care at Winterbourne View hospital for people with learning disabilities, the CQC found that of the 150 inspections it carried out, independent healthcare providers were twice as likely to fail to meet the required standards as NHS providers. How does the Minister account for that? Can he say specifically what steps he will be taking to ensure that clinical commissioning groups tackle the problems the commission found over lengths of stay in services, failure to review care plans so that residents can be moved on to community-based services, and the very worrying overuse of restraint of patients?
Earl Howe
My Lords, it is true that CQC inspectors found that for the kind of services they inspected, there was more non-compliance in services run by the private sector. But the information the CQC gathered for its report does not enable it to analyse the reasons for that. I would simply say that all providers of services, whether in the independent sector or the NHS, need to ensure that they comply with essential standards. The noble Baroness summarised a number of the areas where the CQC found failings and I endorse her view that there is a fundamental failing across the system, not just in providers but in terms of commissioning as well. The examples of poor care show up a fundamental need for commissioners to review commissioning plans and care plans, and make sure not just that the providers are capable of offering and providing care to the right standards but that they are actually doing so at the right level for the patients and service users they look after.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, is trying to get in.
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton
My Lords, in 2008 the Joint Committee on Human Rights produced a shocking report which highlighted some of the most degrading experiences endured by adults with learning disabilities in health and residential care settings. Four years on we are debating the same human rights abuses—this time highlighted by the CQC report, which shows excessive use of restraint and seclusion in assessment and treatment facilities. Will the Minister assure us that he will return to the JCHR and CQC reports and tell us what measures the Government will take now to protect the liberties and safety of this highly vulnerable group so that we do not sit here again in four years debating how we have failed for a third time?
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness’s remarks will resonate with many noble Lords. We have been here before. One of the emerging issues from the review is around poor practice on the use of restraint, as she rightly mentioned. CQC inspectors found that only 73% of locations met requirements on physical intervention or restraint. There was ineffective monitoring of restraint data and learning from incidents. Staff were not always trained and restraint was not always delivered in line with the care plan. There are real lessons to be learnt by providers about the use of restraint. We have flagged this up as one of the actions that we will take in the department to work with the Department for Education, the Care Quality Commission and others to drive up standards and promote best practice in the use of positive behavioural support and ensure that physical restraint is only ever used as a last resort. The report published on Monday is an interim report and we will be publishing a final report later in the year.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this report calls into question the role of local safeguarding adult bodies? What are they doing now while people are being mistreated in a way that the CQC has uncovered? Does the Minister think that it is time to revisit the legal bases of those organisations?
Earl Howe
My Lords, my noble friend is right to call that matter into question. My department will be working with the NHS Commissioning Board Authority to agree by January next year how best to embed quality of health principles in the system using NHS contracting and guidance. Those principles will set out the expectations of service users in relation to their experience. We are taking a range of other action—the 14 national actions to which I referred in my initial Answer—which I would suggest my noble friend looks at. We are clear that there is a need not just for providers but for everybody in the system to focus on their responsibilities and to work together to drive up standards in the way that we all wish to see.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, given the number of years that have passed since we saw the Mencap report Death by Indifference, and the fact that these reports show an inadequate level of improvement, I find myself in the strange position of asking my noble friend if he would please reconsider a proper register, professionally supervised by those working in the care industry?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as my noble friend knows, we committed in the Health and Social Care Act to facilitate a voluntary register for care workers and health workers. We believe that the system should be tried before we think about any statutory regulation. However, I understand the urgency and strength of feeling around this issue and it is a matter that we will keep under regular review.
British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That the draft orders laid before the House on 29 February be approved.
Relevant documents: 58th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010–12; 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010–12; 1st and 4th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, considered in Grand Committee on 25 June.
Justice and Security Bill [HL]
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Justice and Security Bill [HL] has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 15, Schedules 2 and 3, Clause 16.
European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Owen
My Lords, I know that other important business awaits so I will be very brief. However, there is a procedural question of some importance under the European Union Act 2011, which we are discussing, and the Explanatory Note relating to referendums.
Treaty referendum is becoming a very live subject now that the Finance Minister of Germany has announced that there could be a referendum on a rather more urgent timescale than has been considered—presumably in relationship to the single European banking supervision system which is being proposed by some people. However, my point goes much wider than that. Under the circumstances, it is possible for a Minister under the simplified revision procedure to make a statement under Section 5 of the Act that, although a transfer of power from the UK to the EU falling within Section 4 of this Act has taken place, the proposed change is considered not significant. There are circumstances in which it might be very urgent, during the present crisis over the eurozone, for the British Government to give powers, and I think that they have overall adopted a very conciliatory attitude to those members of the eurozone to the effect that we do not wish to stand in their way on making changes that we may not ourselves wish for but which are related purely to the eurozone. So it is quite possible that a decision might come that is not considered significant in terms of the Act, but if passed by this House would allow the European Union treaties to be amended and action to take place urgently. That might be helpful.
However, in the same circumstances, the Government, not using the 2011 Act, might consider that the implications of these changes are of such importance that they wish to call a referendum under the general powers, although not in a way that would stop the rest of the European Union living under the treaty amendments they had agreed. When the Bill comes back on Third Reading, will it possible to clarify the not-significant clause in a helpful way towards the European Union? We could also hold our own referendum under different legislation which, if you like, would deal with our own political problems but would not stand in the way of a resolution to the eurozone crisis, which we might all agree might be necessary in a matter of days.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the noble Lord has raised wider issues of great importance, ones that your Lordships will no doubt wish to debate. Indeed, it is possible that he may have an opportunity to raise them at Third Reading. However, this Bill is concerned merely with amending Article 136 of the Lisbon treaty, and there being no amendments to it on Report, I beg to move.
Arrangement of Business
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it has been agreed that the Statement which is about to be given by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde should follow the extended procedure for Back-Bench contributions. Perhaps I may remind the House that this means that after my noble friend has made his Statement and the Leader of the Opposition has made her speech, my noble friend will respond to her. At that point we shall have 40 minutes for the Back-Bench speeches—
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
Questions—I am prompted on an absolutely correct point. We want to include as many participants as possible in this debate, and I know that many noble Lords are keen to ask questions. In Statements we normally ask two questions for elucidation; we do not make speeches.
When we reach the 40 minutes for questions, it has been decided that it would be helpful to the House if we followed the normal procedure for extended debates whereby the first person to ask questions will be the Convener of the Cross Benches, followed thereafter by a right reverend Prelate. Today I understand that it will be the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. Following him will be my noble friend Lord Dholakia, and then the noble Lord, Lord Richard, as the chair of the Joint Select Committee.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, in the light of the importance of this subject, can the proceedings in Grand Committee be suspended while the noble Lord makes his Statement?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I am glad to be able to announce that, as will shortly be made clear on the annunciator, the proceedings in Grand Committee will not go ahead until 4.45 pm, which permits those noble Lords who intend to take part in the first day of the Committee stage of the Civil Aviation Bill to be present in the Chamber.
House of Lords Reform Bill
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government have today published our response to the report from the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill of last Session. We have reflected, and we are now in a position to introduce a Bill. The House of Commons has today given a First Reading to a House of Lords Reform Bill introduced by the Government and copies are available in the Printed Paper Office. The Government, after a White Paper, joint pre-legislative scrutiny and many debates, have taken the next step in the legislative process and put the proposals before Parliament. The Government will ask another place to give the Bill a Second Reading before the Summer Recess.
The development of the Government’s Bill has benefited from the detailed scrutiny of the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill so valuably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. The Government are grateful to the Joint Committee for its report. We have considered its report and we have accepted many of its conclusions and recommendations.
I hope it might be helpful for me to set out the key respects in which the Bill introduced today differs from the original draft Bill, and to identify the central elements of the Bill that have not changed. The Joint Committee and the Government are in agreement on key features of our proposals. We are agreed that 80% of members of the reformed second Chamber should be elected on the basis of proportional representation; that the reformed House should be smaller than the current House of Lords; that Members should serve for a single 15-year, non-renewable term; and that there should be no change to the powers and functions of the two Houses.
We have none the less made a number of significant changes to the Bill we have introduced today. The draft Bill recommended reducing the size of the House to 300 Members. The Joint Committee recommended 450 Members, and we have accepted its recommendation. The Joint Committee also recommended that the 90 appointed Members should not necessarily be expected to attend the reformed House every sitting day. The committee argued that allowing individuals to maintain relevant professional expertise would strengthen the reformed House, as it does the present House. The Government have accepted this recommendation, and consider that the same logic should apply to elected Members. To reflect this, the Bill provides that IPSA must pay Members according to their level of participation in the work of the House.
On the recommendation of the Joint Committee, we have also significantly altered Clause 2 of the Bill. It is no longer a declaratory statement that nothing in the Bill affects the primacy of the House of Commons, the powers of each House and the conventions. Instead, it now clarifies the continuing application of the Parliament Acts in the context of a reformed second Chamber.
A further substantial change intended to provide a clear differentiation between the role of MPs and that of elected Members of the reformed House is that the areas from which elected Members will be returned are now larger regions rather than the smaller electoral districts proposed in the White Paper. Using these regions means that there will be a larger number of seats in each district, which in turn would have led to significant practical issues if an STV system had been used. The Government share the Joint Committee’s view that the complexity of the electoral system is an important consideration, and that voters should have the option of simply voting for a party. The Government therefore consider that the most appropriate electoral system for the reformed House in Great Britain is a regional, semi-open list, and that is what is now proposed.
In many other respects the draft Bill and the Bill introduced today are the same. Elections to the second Chamber will happen in thirds to coincide with general elections. There will be a transitional period with existing Members leaving in thirds, as each set of elected Members arrives. Membership of the reformed second Chamber will no longer be linked to the peerage. There will be a continuing role for Church of England bishops, but in reduced number. A statutory Appointments Commission will make nominations for the 20% of appointed Members who would be expected to be non-party political. The Bill includes provision for Members of the House to be able to resign, it provides for disqualification from membership of the House, and it gives the House a power to suspend or expel Members.
Finally, the fundamental principle behind the Bill has not changed. The Government believe that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those to whom the laws apply, and that a democratic mandate—obtained through direct elections—would afford the House greater legitimacy and thereby enhance the House’s ability to perform its core functions of revising legislation and holding the Executive to account.
I am conscious that Members around the House have taken a close interest in the cost of the Government’s proposals for reform. As promised, the Government have today published their full cost estimates alongside the impact assessment for the Bill. These, too, have been placed in the Printed Paper Office.
I hope that this overview has served to highlight the main respects in which the Government’s proposals have evolved since the publication of the draft Bill and the publication of the Joint Committee’s report on that Bill. I reiterate the Government’s thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and the other noble Lords who served on the Joint Committee, whose report has had a significant influence on our final proposals.
I said before that there is only one way to test whether a consensus on the second phase of reform of this House exists or can emerge, and that is to introduce a Bill and allow Parliament to take a view. Today, that process is under way.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for making a Statement to your Lordships' House on the Government’s revised House of Lords Reform Bill, which has been introduced today in the other place and given a First Reading. I am grateful, too, for an advanced sight of the Statement. I thank the Leader and the government Chief Whip for offering to extend to 40 minutes the normal period for Back-Bench contributions to the debate today.
This country is facing enormous difficulties. We are in a double-dip recession; we have no economic growth; unemployment, especially youth unemployment, remains high. The Governor of the Bank of England did not mince his words yesterday when he spoke of the depth of the economic crisis. Further efforts will be made this week at the EU summit to try to resolve the eurozone crisis. We need jobs and we need growth; we need a change of economic strategy. Those are the country’s priorities and those are the Opposition’s priorities. What are the Government’s priorities? Apparently, they centre on further reform of your Lordships’ House. Not only is reform of your Lordships’ House not at the top of the priority list of the people of this country; it is not even at the bottom of the priority list. In fact, it is not on the list at all, because it is not a priority. Even the most positive polling figures suggest that less than a fifth of the people of this country regard further House of Lords reform as in any way urgent. Yet this is what this Government have placed at the heart of their legislative agenda; this is what the Government are focusing on today. Why are the Government making reform of your Lordships' House such a priority in the light of the economic challenges facing us?
We do not from these Benches say that constitutional reform is unimportant. From 1997 onwards in government, we brought forward a serious programme of constitutional reform, including major changes such as devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Constitutional reform, including further reform of the House of Lords, goes to important questions about how Britain is governed. We on these Benches did not seek a Bill on further reform of your Lordships' House to be included in the Government’s legislative programme, but it has been; it is there; and we as the Opposition must respond to it.
Labour’s commitment to a fully elected second Chamber was explicit in its manifesto at the last general election. Labour has a long commitment to reform and has enacted that commitment. We want to see reform, but we want to get that reform right. For the Labour Party, that means a fully elected second Chamber. It means getting the powers and role of the House of Lords right, not only in itself but in relation to the House of Commons. We believe, too, that the issue is of such importance that it should be put to the people of this country in a referendum, a commitment which is strongly supported by the public according to opinion-poll evidence.
We will want to examine in detail the Government’s revised version of the House of Lords Reform Bill. The first version of the Bill, published last year, was a bad Bill. We thought so; the Joint Committee on the Bill thought so; and the alternative report from the Joint Committee’s minority group thought so. Pretty well everyone thought so, apart from the Deputy Prime Minister.
The Government are proposing their revised Bill in the face of serious and searching criticisms of their first attempt. We will need to consider how far this version gets in dealing with the very big questions which need to be resolved, including those about the primacy of the House of Commons. The Government’s revised Bill today attempts to shore up in various ways the wholly discredited Clause 2 of the original Bill, on Commons primacy, by scrapping the provision entirely and replacing it with a statement in the Bill about the applicability of the Parliament Acts. The Bill also repeals the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911. Are there any further constitutional implications of repealing the preamble? I look forward to hearing the views on this issue of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and of my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith.
On the applicability of the Parliament Acts, can the Leader of the House explain why, in the Government’s response to the report of the Joint Committee, which has also been published today, they refer on page 7 to their response to recommendation 84 of the Joint Committee, on the Parliament Acts, when their responses to the recommendations go from 82 to 86, without recommendation 84 being included at all? That is interesting.
There are also questions about the powers of the second Chamber; about the exact proportion of elected Members, the length of their terms, whether they should be renewable; about the system of election; about the relationship between the Lords and the Commons, about the position of this House in relation to the outcome of a referendum in Scotland on independence; about the place of bishops or other religious representation; about transitional arrangements, and about the costs of the Government’s reforms.
On the question of costs, the Government have, as the Leader of the House said, finally published the costings today on their revised proposals. I note that these include provision for a number of allowances for Members of an elected House, including an accommodation allowance and a staffing allowance. The costings do not, however, include the cost of elections for the House, put separately by the Government at £85.7 million for each of the elections proposed. Will the Leader tell the House what the Government believe the total net cost of all their proposals will be?
Can the Leader of the House explain to Members of your Lordships’ House what the position will be in an elected House in relation to remuneration? The Government have been briefing the media heavily in the past few days that Members of the new elected House will not be paid a salary but will instead have a daily allowance before tax of £300. However, new Section 7A of Clause 46 of the Bill specifies that,
“members of the House of Lords are to be paid … on a monthly basis in arrears”.
Will the Leader of the House clarify which is correct?
Of huge importance to my party and to the Joint Committee, the revised Bill does not contain a referendum. There is little logic in a position which says that we have referendums to decide whether we have city mayors, but not to decide whether to alter radically the composition and structure of our Parliament. We shall see whether the Government’s present non-inclusion of a referendum in the Bill survives whatever parliamentary processes the Bill faces. However, can the Leader of the House say why he believes that 55%—according to the latest opinion poll—of the people of this country are wrong in wanting to have their say on these matters in a referendum?
On these matters, Labour, whether in the other place or in your Lordships’ House, will seek as an Opposition to scrutinise, amend and improve the Bill during its passage through Parliament. Lords reform is a serious issue and we expect the Government to take Parliament seriously, too, in considering it. That is why we want to see proper scrutiny of the Bill in the other place, where it will be taken first. That is why we will oppose in the other place the proposed timetable for the Bill, which would, effectively, guillotine debate. However, we are a party in favour of reform, which is why Ed Miliband also announced yesterday that Labour in the Commons will be voting for a Second Reading of the Bill. For a Bill about which we have real reservations, this is an unusual step for an Opposition. There is indeed plenty of precedent for legislative proposals being opposed at this stage.
For example, in 1999, the party opposite, including 11 members of the current Cabinet, proposed and voted for a reasoned amendment and against the Second Reading of the Labour Government’s 1999 House of Lords Bill on hereditary Peers. We know that there are members of my party, both in this House and the other place, who would wish to vote against the Bill for reasons of principle. I respect those who hold this view, but the shadow Cabinet, of which I am a member, disagrees with them, and Labour will vote for a Second Reading in the other place later this month.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
It is next month, forgive me. It is not July—hell.
We know, too, that there are great differences of opinion—vast gulfs of opinion—between the constituent parties of the coalition, and within the ranks of the Conservative Party, both in the other place and in this House. As the Prime Minister said in the other place earlier today, there are those in all parties who oppose further reform of the House of Lords, just as there are those who support further reform. We shall see how those differences emerge as the Bill goes through its Commons stages.
It is likely that those stages will be protracted. The Bill is, I suspect, many months away from coming before this House, if indeed it manages to get out of the Commons. Given the dates for Second Reading in the other place, it is likely that the House of Commons will go into Committee on the Bill when it sits in September. Recently the noble Lord the Leader of the House all but issued as a threat the possibility that this House would have to sit in September to deal with the Financial Services Bill. Can I inform him that in order to deal with a range of matters, such as the Government’s legislative programme and their record on jobs and growth, we on these Benches would welcome sitting in September when the Commons will be deliberating on this Bill. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange now that this House should indeed sit in September to consider these important matters.
On the overall matter of further reform of your Lordships’ House, there are wide differences of opinion across the House. That was clearly demonstrated right across the House in the days of debate we have had on the issue recently, both in considering the report of the Joint Committee and the alternative report and in the days devoted to the constitutional issues during the debate in this Chamber on the gracious Speech. However, what was also demonstrated in those debates was a seriousness about this issue—a determination that it should be considered properly, and a clear intention to scrutinise fully whatever proposals the Government place before Parliament. Can the Leader of the House give us a commitment that if this Bill does get to your Lordships’ House, the Members of this House will have all the time they need to scrutinise the proposals fully and properly?
We have revised proposals before us today. In this House we have time—possibly a good deal of time—to consider these proposals while they are in the House of Commons. That is what I expect that many individual Members of this House will wish to do. For our part, both in the other place and, if necessary, in your Lordships’ House, we will ensure that the Government’s proposals are properly debated, properly considered, properly questioned and properly scrutinised. That is the job of the Opposition; and starting from the publication of the Bill today, that is the job that we will be getting on with.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, having read what Mr Miliband said in support of the prospect of reform, I was surprised by much of what the noble Baroness said this afternoon. I was very impressed with what Mr Miliband said yesterday. He pledged the Labour Party’s support for the Second Reading of the Bill, even before he had had an opportunity to see it. Perhaps when he has read it, he will decide to support a programme Motion to rush it through the House of Commons and into this House as quickly as possible.
The noble Baroness asked whether this should be a priority. It has been hanging around for so long that we have to get around to it at some stage. It started in 1998-99 as a great priority of the previous Government. They published their last White Paper in 2008. I dare say that if the Labour Party had won the election it would have brought forward a Bill. This coalition has decided that it is time to bring this debate to an end and to ask Parliament what its view is, and it is right that we should do so.
There is also the bizarre suggestion that when important things are happening, Parliament cannot decide on other important issues. It is worth reflecting that on 6 and 7 June 1944, the House of Lords was debating the all-important Butler Education Act on Second Reading. Of course, getting growth into the economy is important, but that is not going to be done just in Parliament; it is going to be done by businesses and entrepreneurs up and down the country.
The noble Baroness reiterated the Labour Party’s view that what is most important in reform is that the House should be 100% elected. Respectfully, we disagree, as did the Joint Committee. Although she did not say that the powers between the Houses should be codified, I think that is what she meant. Again, respectfully, we disagree. She said that there should be a referendum. We see no case whatever for a referendum on the issue. Parliament should decide. It would cost £80 million to have a referendum on this issue, which was included as part of all three main parties’ political manifestos. I urge the Opposition to have more confidence in their manifesto, which is only two years old. I hate to point out to noble Lords opposite that there were no referendums in 1958 or 1999, when the composition of the House was changed, and we see no case for one now.
On the question of primacy, it is true that the Joint Committee had a substantial debate on Clause 2, helped by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the Government reflected on that. That is why we have changed the Bill in this way. This is in part because this Bill is about the composition of a reformed House of Lords and the transition arrangements for getting there. It is not about the functions, powers and role of the two Houses, which we would like to see remain unaffected by that change. The Bill clearly states that the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949 will continue to apply after the introduction of elected Members.
The Parliament Acts underpin the primacy of the House of Commons in statute. They limit the legislative power of the Lords and ensure that any Administration with a majority in the Commons can ultimately pass legislation without agreement of the House of Lords. We are not aware of any further constitutional implications of repealing the preamble to the 1911 Act.
On the questions of cost raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, she rightly pointed out that the cost of election was excluded from the cost of the House; it stands at £85.7 million every five years. We believe that at the end of the transition period the projected additional annual cost of the House of Lords will be £13.6 million. Of course there will be other associated costs during the course of transition. As for pay, there is something inherently useful about the current arrangements whereby Peers have a daily allowance, and we wish to replicate that through a per diem salary that would be paid monthly in arrears but would be assessed on daily attendance in this House.
In the course of the next few months, there will be many opportunities to discuss some of these issues, but it is also right for the House of Commons now to take its view. I have no idea when the House of Commons is going to discuss these issues, and whether it will be early or late in the autumn. We also have work to do and we should get on with that before dealing with the Bill when it gets to us some time in the winter.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt can I say explicitly that if my Government had been in power now and had faced the economic situation which the country faces now, this would not have been at the top of our priorities and we would not be discussing this Bill in the House of Commons today?
Lord Laming
My Lords, I will be brief. I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating this Statement on a Bill that will clearly repay careful study, and for agreeing to this extended time of questioning.
It was entirely understandable that the new coalition Government introduced a full and challenging legislative programme that required an extended first Session. Inevitably some of that legislation was controversial. Does the Leader agree that every one of those Bills was carefully scrutinised in this House? Does he agree that, thanks to the hard work of colleagues from all around the House, each one of those Bills was greatly improved, so much so that during the period of scrutiny the Government had time to reflect on points that had been made and brought forward very many changes to their own legislation? As a starting point, does the Leader agree that this House has demonstrated time and again its ability to fulfil its responsibilities in the scrutiny and improvement of legislation?
Secondly, does the Leader agree that the House has changed greatly in recent years, and that time and again it has shown its willingness to change? Indeed, across the House there is agreement that further incremental change is still there for the taking.
Thirdly, will the Leader accept that my colleagues and I welcome that the Bill will endorse that 20% of the membership of the House will be appointed, but will he assure the House that the appointed Members will be genuinely independent and without any party political allegiance?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am grateful for the Convenor’s questions. Of course I agree with him: the House of Lords, not just since the general election but broadly since 1999, has done a good job of scrutiny and worked well on Bills. I have put on record many times that this is not about the current effectiveness of the House of Lords, which is recognised as having done its job extremely well and having improved legislation. The Government’s view is to improve the legitimacy of the House—indeed, to strengthen its ability to hold the Government to account and to challenge the decisions of the House of Commons.
On the noble Lord’s second question, yes, the House has changed substantially throughout the 20th century, most recently in 1999, and has always accepted such changes. Many of my colleagues in the coalition regard the transitional period as being extremely long. There was no transitional period, or not a very big one, in 1998-99, but there will be a substantial one for the new House to get used to the new arrangements over three electoral cycles.
I confirm that the 20% appointed Members will be appointed by a statutory Appointments Commission, as laid out in the Bill, and will be non-party political Members of this House.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader for his clarification of the Government’s proposals. We on these Benches recognise the need for some reform of this House, and welcome the opportunity that the Bill will give for a thorough debate about the future of Parliament. In particular, we are pleased to see that the Government endorse the Joint Committee’s recommendation on the continuing contribution of the Lords spiritual to a reformed House, albeit that the decision to raise the proposed size of the House to 450 from the original proposal of 300 suggests that the proportion of Bishops, at the number of 12, may be too low if the total number is revised upwards.
We have always said that we will assess the proposals on the basis of what makes for the good governance of Britain. I therefore raise two questions. First, as a member of the Joint Committee, I remained puzzled throughout the course of its work about how the Government’s expressed desire for a more assertive House could be squared with the confident assertion that a reformed House could be relied upon to exercise the necessary self-restraint required to guarantee the primacy and effectiveness of the House of Commons. Will the Leader help us to be as certain as he appears to be that the Parliament Act will prevent the serious risk of dysfunction in the relationship between the two Houses?
Secondly, as your Lordships will be aware, the Church of England has always argued for diverse religious representation in this House so that it properly reflects the diversity of civil society as a whole. The Government appear not to have accepted the Joint Committee’s recommendation that it is necessary for the Bill to make explicit reference to the inclusion of major faiths in a reformed House. How is it proposed that the Appointments Commission can ensure that a reformed House will reflect the religious heritage and cultural diversity of Britain today?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I reiterate a view that I have long held and which the Government also hold: the Lords spiritual play a valuable and important role in the House and make an important contribution. The right reverend Prelate wonders about the numbers. I think it was the Joint Committee that suggested a reduction to 12 Bishops. The proposal in the Bill is that there should be five named Bishops and Archbishops, and then seven others chosen by the Church of England.
On two key questions of self-restraint and how this can be achieved, of course nothing can be guaranteed. It depends on the House evolving, and its new relationship with the second Chamber, which either will or will not change. It will be up to the new House, and the House of Commons, to decide how best to govern itself.
On the second question the right reverend Prelate raises, he is right to point out that we have not accepted that there should be an explicit condition on the statutory Appointments Commission to put in Peers of other faiths and make sure they are represented. There is no such view on the current Appointments Commission, yet it works extremely well. Other faiths have been introduced into the House, and I hope that that will continue.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I did explain at the very beginning and I repeat that it has been the custom of these extended debates for a senior member of the Liberal Democrat Benches to speak after the noble and right reverend Bishop. It was my error in saying “my noble friend Lord Dholakia”. I apologise; I should have said “my noble friend Lord Tyler”—which I did say—followed by “the noble Lord, Lord Richard”.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Dholakia is not able to be here, and I have been asked to respond. I am very sorry if I am holding up the noble Lord, Lord Richard, because I am looking forward very much to his response. He and other members of the committee will agree that the Government have in the main responded to our report.
Has my noble friend the Leader noted very intriguing variations in consistency on this issue? He will have noted, I think, that David Cameron and George Osborne voted for the 80/20 hybrid House as long ago as February 2003, as indeed I did. However, a great many others seem to have changed their minds since. I particularly welcome—and I think that other members of the Joint Committee will join me in this—the fact that the Government have taken such trouble with a very robust and comprehensive analysis of the cost projections to lay to rest the otherwise very speculative scaremongering expenditure estimates that were given to us previously. That is very helpful. That also responds to the report recommendations.
May I ask my noble friend the Leader to expand in due course, not necessarily now, on the true comparison between the Government’s proposals in this very useful document on the projection of cost and what would otherwise happen if the Government’s proposals did not go through? If the size of the House continued to expand, the cost of this House would of course also increase dramatically.
Lord Strathclyde
Yes, my Lords, we most certainly can. My noble friend is entirely correct. There has been a very robust analysis of the cost, including an examination of what the cost might have been if no reform had taken place—it would increase substantially. I said in reply to the Leader of the Opposition that the net cost in the first year after transition would be an extra £13.6 million per year, and I stand by that amount. I am very happy to write to my noble friend about how the costs have been robustly examined. I think the House will find that when it looks at the Explanatory Memorandum and the reply to the Joint Committee of both Houses, it will see very clearly how those costs have been reached and how they are substantially different from the ones proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey.
Lord Richard
My Lords, it was indeed a privilege and a pleasure, although perhaps not a treasure beyond measure, to have been asked to chair the Joint Committee. It was a fascinating experience, and I greatly enjoyed it. We exposed a very large number of issues in the course of it, some of which I am happy to say the Government have taken on board. It is now proposed that the size of the House should be 450 rather than 300. That is thoroughly sensible. However, the main issue that the Joint Committee spent a great deal of time on was raised by the noble and right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester: namely, the primacy of the House of Commons and the relationship between the two Houses.
The Government are quite right to put in the provision clarifying totally the issue of the Parliament Acts. There was a lacuna there, and it was clearly pointed out to the Joint Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith. The Government have put that right, and that is to be welcomed, but I am not sure whether merely dealing with primacy in that way, and only in that way, in the Bill will be sufficient. I ask the Leader of the House whether he will look at this issue of primacy again, and at whether there are ways in which one could perhaps not exactly buttress the primacy of the House of Commons but at least harden it.
There was one Joint Committee recommendation which the Government did not accept, and I would be grateful if the Leader of the House could tell me why. It came originally from the Cunningham report, and was that you could not codify the conventions dealing with the relationship between the two Houses and that you should not put them in statute. That I entirely agreed with. On the other hand, as we suggested, each House could almost simultaneously pass resolutions in identical terms spelling out what that relationship is and what the conventions underlying that relationship were. In other words, you would have a concordat spelt out in two documents between the two Houses that would set out the basic relationship between the two. I am not suggesting that that is immutable and can inevitably last in perpetuity, but I do say that although you cannot guarantee the primacy of the House of Commons in perpetuity—it cannot be done—you can produce a set of proposals that make it far more likely that that primacy will last than if you do not have those proposals in the Bill.
The Government should therefore perhaps look again at whether you cannot harden that part of the relationship between the two Houses, and I ask the noble Lord to look at it.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord is of course entirely correct that a large part of his report and the evidence that he received was on precisely this point about powers and primacy. There is a difference of opinion. My view, and the Government’s view, is that we should not worry too much about this at this stage. There is no need to do so. What could be a potential outcome of this? We could end up with an elected House having less power than the current House. That would be completely absurd. In the Bill, the Government have protected the current rights and privileges of the House of Commons and the House of Lords and have asserted that the Bill is about composition and not about powers at all.
The noble Lord, Lord Richard, has made an entirely sensible observation: that one way around this is to look again at the conventions that exist between the two Houses, and to ask each House to pass some sort of resolution. Well, maybe that is exactly what will happen, but there is no need for it to happen now or before Royal Assent of this Bill, or indeed before 2015, which is the anticipated date of the first elections. However, it is certainly a suggestion that a successor House may well wish to look at sensibly.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
My Lords, I appreciate the way that the Government have taken on board the main principles of the Joint Committee. I note that the Bill now overlaps in most significant respects with the recommendations of the royal commission chaired a few years ago by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, but with one significant difference. The Wakeham commission allowed for the possibility of at least a few experienced politicians being appointed to the new second Chamber. How does the Leader of the House envisage providing, under the Bill, for people who have perhaps stood for election to the House of Commons two or three times and who would not necessarily be tempted to stand again for election to this House but who have a huge amount to offer in the way of political experience and wisdom? If there was no such provision in a new Chamber, would he not say that this was a significant loss?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, makes two valuable points. First, he is entirely correct that there is a firm line of thought between the conclusions of the royal commission chaired by my noble friend Lord Wakeham, the White Papers produced by the Labour Party when it was in government, the draft Bill and, indeed, the Bill that we have published today. That is why I have said that very little is new in all this; the noble and right reverend Lord is entirely correct. The second point that he raises is more difficult and more intriguing. It is right that unless former distinguished Members of the House of Commons were prepared to stand for election under their party label, we would lose some of that expertise. Having said that, I do not think that it would be beyond the terms of reference of the statutory Appointments Commission to select a small number of most eminent politicians—a very select few—who might be interested in serving the nation and this House without a party political label.
Lord Howe of Aberavon
My Lords, my noble friend will surely remember that it is only a few years ago that the Public Administration Select Committee of the House of Commons concluded that the principal cause of today’s widespread public disillusionment with our political system is the virtually untrammelled control by the Executive of the elected House of Commons. The committee reached important conclusions. First, that there is a need to ensure that the domination of Parliament by the Executive, including the political party machines, is reduced and not increased and, secondly, that,
“the second chamber has to be neither rival nor replica … but genuinely complementary”,
to the Commons, and therefore, “as different as possible”. On that very sound basis, coming from the other place, would my noble friend take note of the fact that the principle underlying this Bill is one which will have to be examined critically and seriously, because it is fundamental to the good working of this constitution as we have enjoyed it for so many years?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I agree with my noble and learned friend that this Bill should be fully examined and I know that it will be. I agree with the examples that he uses: the control of the Executive in another place, the domination of Parliament by the Executive and the need for differences between this House and the House of Commons. However, I come, and the Government have come, to a different conclusion. I see these reforms as strengthening this House by giving it the authority of the electorate to be more assertive and occasionally to be more beastly to the House of Commons, to hold it to account and to challenge the decisions that it takes. This House will be able to do that far better having been elected than simply having been appointed.
Lord Lipsey
My Lords, I have no wish to extend discourtesy in public life, as the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, did when he described my costings of the Richard report as complete nonsense. I will not apply those words to the Government’s costings. However, would the noble Lord the Leader of the House accept that their costings of £220 million omit a large number of costs that will certainly arise under the Bill—for example, the costs of election—and therefore do not stand a moment’s close scrutiny? If he will not, will he agree to refer those costings to an independent referee, such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which can examine their costings of their proposals and my costings of the Richard report, and give the public the correct assessment of the costs that they will have to pay through their pocket as VAT, income tax and so on?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the underlying assumptions and cost projections are in the public domain today. I fully expect that they will be given robust scrutiny by the IFS, the TaxPayers’ Alliance, the Labour Party and anyone else who wishes to examine them. Of course, the Government will reply to any questions raised on costs, which I believe have been reached in a robust manner.
Lord Deben
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the decision to have a list system will mean that this House would be in effect appointed by the political parties in many cases? The people they would appoint would be those who would not in other circumstances be chosen for this House. Many of those who work in this House would not wish to fight an election in those circumstances. This proposal makes for the worst conceivable kind of appointment to this House. That is why, above all, we should look at this Bill extremely carefully and, I hope, recognise that that which is, although illogical, is better than that which would just be fatal.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, apart from powers, one of the key areas will be the electoral system, which is different from the one originally proposed in the draft Bill. It is different from what was suggested by the Joint Committee, although the committee suggested some improvements to the original system on which this is based. Under this system, it is difficult for independents to be elected, which is why we have reserved 20% of the House to independents who will be put here through the statutory Appointments Commission. It is beyond doubt that it is a proportional system. Therefore, there will be no natural majority for any Government, which will preserve one of the strengths of this House.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
Will the Leader of the House at least consider that, after the White Paper and all the deliberations, consultations, and discussions he has made a bad Bill worse? First, as has just been pointed out, the new senators will be less independent than originally proposed because not only will the list system make them more loyal to parties but they will have to be determined on the list by the party leaders. Secondly, they will be more likely to intervene in the legislative process and the work of the House of Commons because they will have no constituency work to do and can spend all their time dealing with matters of politics and legislation.
Thirdly, I am sceptical about the cost. I do not know what the Leader of the House would think of any new company which starts up with 450 employees and bases its overheads and costs assessment on the hope that they would not turn up to work, which seems to be what he is doing. Above all, will the Leader of the House explain—if he knows it but Members of the other House do not—that you cannot ring-fence by regulations or by law the natural dynamic of politics? If you choose 300 senators with constituencies 10 times as big but with no constituency work for a term three times as long, whatever the regulations that will become through the dynamic the primary House. If there is scepticism from the Members of the House of Commons about this cast-iron guarantee that they have been given, will he refer them to the cast-iron guarantees that were given by Mr Straw that the Freedom of Information Act would be ring-fenced so that it did not apply to MPs allowances?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord says that Peers elected under this new system will be even less independent. We are not calling them senators at the moment: we are not calling them anything. I think that the Bill calls them Members of the House of Lords, but they will not necessarily be Lords.
The noble Lord’s charge is that they will be less independent than they are today. I am not sure that that holds water at all. At the moment, Peers get appointed by their party leaders and presumably act accordingly. Under this arrangement they will be elected by the electorate, but once they are here they will not need to be reselected to stand again because it will for one term only. Do I agree with the noble Lord that they will intervene in improving scrutiny of legislation? I think they will. This Bill is now in the House of Commons. It is up to Members of the House of Commons to decide whether the noble Lord is right and whether that will aid the scrutiny of legislation or improve it. I believe that it will improve it and that elected Members of this House will be more assertive than the current House.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, I hope that the Leader of the House will agree that there has been a long tradition that when Law Lords retired they made a significant contribution to the deliberations of this House and that it is an important tradition to maintain. Will he tell me whether the special position of the Law Lords has been given consideration in the present Bill? It seems to me that it will be very difficult—if not impossible—for former Law Lords to become Members of this House through the appointment system.
Law Lords do not retire at a particularly youthful age. If the application for appointment to this House is to be made subsequent to their retirement, as one would expect, the prospects of obtaining Law Lords in this House is going to be remote. I understand that at present the appointment of independent Cross-Bench and other Members is at the rate of four a year. That will be reduced to two a year, which is hardly consistent with dealing with a category of that sort.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have every sympathy with what the noble and learned Lord says because I am one of many who voted against the constitutional vandalism of tearing out the Law Lords from this House five or six years ago. However, it is a bit like toothpaste; you cannot put it back into the tube. I think we miss the Law Lords and I think they probably miss us, which is why the noble and learned Lord is suggesting that we should find a way back. I have to tell the noble and learned Lord that there is no guarantee that they would be appointed by the Appointments Commission. However, I do not believe that because they are old they are of no further use to Parliament and to the nation, and after 2015 it may be that particularly eminent Law Lords will still be appointed.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, my noble friend has repeatedly told the House that at the last general election all parties had some form of commitment to election of this House in their manifestos—they were markedly different, I would remind him. That being the case, no elector in this country had the opportunity of expressing concern on this issue. How, therefore, in all logic can someone who prides himself on his democratic credentials—namely, Mr Clegg—possibly argue against the validity and fairness of a referendum on this very important constitutional subject?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister is really not at all convinced that there is a strong case for a referendum on this matter. Earlier, I said that the cost of a referendum would be around £80 million. At a time of economic austerity, this seems—
Lord Strathclyde
It is all very well noble Lords laughing at this. The public will see that they are laughing at a huge amount of public money being spent on a referendum when all three parties and the coalition manifesto said that there should be reform of this House.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
On the contrary, I think that noble Lords were probably laughing at the transparent inadequacy of the answer. We now see on page 36 of the Bill the enormous constituencies that are proposed for electing Members of this House. There are eight of these huge constituencies and it will take the votes of millions of people to send Members to your Lordships’ House in the future. Does the noble Lord the Leader of the House really think that people sent here for 15 years with the backing of millions of votes are going to defer to Members of the House of Commons, who will be sent to represent constituencies with electorates of no more than 80,000 on a minute proportion of the votes for only five years? Self-evidently, Members of this House will be much more powerful than colleagues at the other end of the Corridor. I hope that the noble Lord will answer that in terms of how it will automatically affect primacy. I do not think that Members of this House will go on deferring to the Members of that House in the way that we do while we are unelected and they are elected.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I agree with some of what the noble Baroness says: I think that elected Members will probably defer less than is the case with the current House. That of course is something that the House of Commons will need to take into account when it comes to its conclusions on this, and it is right that it should do so. There would be no point in doing this if this House were less assertive than it currently is. The fact that Peers will have been elected will give us an authority and legitimacy that we do not have at the moment. However, I think it will be argued by Members of the other place that the House of Commons has ultimate legislative supremacy because of the provisions of the Parliament Acts, because the Government of the day is formed from the party or parties that can command a majority in the House of Commons and because the House of Commons has control of financial matters. These are the protections for another place.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I strongly endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, has just said. Certainly, if I am elected to this House, I shall be very assertive. However, looking at the way that the list system operates, I am not sure that the Prime Minister will put me on the list, thereby completely destroying the independence of this House, upon which our constitution depends. I say to my noble friend that it is very important that this debate is conducted in accurate terms. I therefore ask him and his colleagues to desist from saying things which are simply not true; for example, the assertion, as contained in the Statement, that those who make the laws should be elected. This House does not make the laws; the other place makes the laws. Nothing gets passed into law without the agreement of the other place. If this is the principle upon which the Government are founding their ridiculous Bill—that those who are elected must make the laws—then does the reverse apply? If it does, how on earth can the primacy of the House of Commons be maintained?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have made the point about the primacy of the House of Commons and I stand by it. Of course it is an essential principle of democracy that those who make the law should be elected and of course it is true that this House makes the law, as we are going to be doing later this afternoon. My noble friend is right. No law becomes law without the agreement of the House of Commons. This afternoon, this law cannot become law without the agreement of the House of Lords.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I am aged 78 and I expect personal decomposition before we ever agree on the composition of this House. I welcome what is in the Bill about the independent Members and the statutory commission but I raise one single question. How can the noble Lord the Leader of the House justify the phrase in the Bill that,
“present party political activity or affiliation does not necessarily preclude selection”,
as an independent Member? I do not think that that is right.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think the whole House would agree that the noble Lord looks to be in robust health and I wish him continuation of that for very many long years. The line he takes is the point made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. It is our view that non-party political Members will be appointed. There may be a case for saying that former eminent politicians who have no interest in continuing a party political role could be selected by the Statutory Appointments Commission, but it is a statutory commission and not one which is guided by party politicians.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, why did the Government ask Her Majesty the Queen to appoint a record number of new life Peers, all of whom are of course personally very welcome, so that we now have a record number of some 660 life Peers? Why did they do that when they were already planning to reduce us so drastically, perhaps to some 300? What has the Government’s logic been in this process?
Lord Strathclyde
I do not think that there is any difference. We decided there should be a transition arrangement over three parliamentary terms. That will give the existing House, including any new Peers appointed since 2010, the opportunity to remain here until 2025 if they survive that long and if they survive the process of transition.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, will the Leader of the House reconsider the reply that he gave just now to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Will he accept that there are few, if any, who dispute the principle that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those to whom the laws apply? But in the interests of ensuring that the Deputy Prime Minister does not mislead the House of Commons or the country, will he undertake to find an opportunity to explain to the Deputy Prime Minister that Members of the present House of Lords do not make the laws of the land but confine themselves to advising those who do—the elected Members of the House of Commons? Therefore, the whole project of this Bill is based on a fallacy, and a dangerous fallacy at that, because it would confuse and diminish the present clear-cut accountability of the Government to the people through their elected representatives in the House of Commons.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, all I can say is, you could have fooled me. I have seen the noble Lord robustly defend or indeed attack a piece of legislation in this House. But I meet with the Deputy Prime Minister very regularly and I shall draw the noble Lord’s remarks to his attention.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
I think we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Saltoun.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, what makes the Government think that, if this House is to continue to do what it is doing at present, 300 Members will be sufficient to service the committees and the offices that have to be serviced? I have worked out that 300 would not be nearly enough and that it would take 450 Members to do the job. Would the noble Lord care to comment?
Lord Strathclyde
I am delighted to end on a high note. The noble Lady is entirely correct in her assumption. That was also seen by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. The Government took that advice and there will now be not 300 Members but 450.
Crime and Courts Bill [HL]
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Pannick
Lord Pannick
My Lords, in moving Amendment 117, I shall also speak to Amendments 118, 131 and 132, which address an issue of constitutional concern. The Bill would allow the Lord Chancellor to sit as a member of the appointments commission for the posts of Lord Chief Justice and president of the Supreme Court. The amendments would deny the Lord Chancellor such a role. The amendments are also in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, former chairman of the Judicial Appointments Commission, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, a former Lord Chief Justice, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, who is the distinguished chairman of the Constitution Committee, all of whom I am pleased to see in their places.
At present the Lord Chancellor can ask the appointments commission to think again about a proposed appointee, but the Lord Chancellor is not a member of the commission. The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 rightly recognised the need for a clearer separation of powers between the Executive and the judiciary. The change proposed by the Government would regrettably go back on that and it would have substantial disadvantages. First, it would increase the danger of political partiality in the appointment of a senior judge. I recognise, as I am sure will all noble Lords, that the present Lord Chancellor would not contemplate acting in such a manner, but even Mr Kenneth Clarke cannot continue in political life for ever. He is already above the retirement age for judges—a matter that we will be discussing later this afternoon. It would be highly undesirable to give a future Lord Chancellor the power so actively to influence the appointment of the senior judiciary.
The second disadvantage is that the Government’s proposal would undermine the appearance of political independence of the senior judiciary. There is a real danger that a new president of the Supreme Court or a new Lord Chief Justice would be undermined in the eyes of the public by being seen as the Lord Chancellor’s man or the Lord Chancellor’s woman. That would be most regrettable. Appearances matter in this context. There is a third disadvantage, which is that the Judicial Appointments Commission would inevitably find it more difficult to conduct an objective assessment of the rival candidates if it has the Lord Chancellor as one of its members. Indeed, the Bill implicitly recognises the dangers involved because it provides that the Lord Chancellor, if he does sit as a member of the appointments commission, may not chair it. It is unnecessary to give the Lord Chancellor the power to sit on the appointments commission with all the dangers that I have identified.
The Lord Chancellor undoubtedly has a proper interest in the appointments process and needs to work with the Lord Chief Justice. The Lord Chancellor and the Government need to have confidence in the president of the Supreme Court. However, the Lord Chancellor’s and the Government’s interests are fully met by the ability of the Lord Chancellor to be a consultee during the appointment process and by the current position which gives him the right of veto.
Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, conducted an inquiry into judicial appointments, on which we reported in March. The conclusion we reached in that report has been repeated in our report on the Bill, which was published on 18 June. In each of those reports, we stated, in relation to the role of the Lord Chancellor in the appointment process that any closer involvement—that is, closer than currently exists,
“risks politicising the process and would undermine the independence of the judiciary”.
I beg to move.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, I endorse the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I expressed my concerns about this provision in the Bill at Second Reading, so I will not repeat them this afternoon. However, following the Second Reading debate, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, very kindly copied me into the letter he sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, which explains in more detail the Government’s reasoning behind the proposed change. I read it very carefully and I am not convinced by the rationale it advanced. The issue in question is the appropriate involvement and accountability of the Lord Chancellor. In my experience, the current arrangements work fine. If the consideration or rejection of the recommendation is based on clear and sound reasons, this presents no difficulty. Indeed, it helps to concentrate the minds both of the selection panel and the Lord Chancellor. It is very helpful to the parties concerned. Furthermore, the Lord Chancellor has appropriate involvement in the course of the selection process as he is consulted at relevant stages.
Under the proposed changes, the Lord Chancellor might choose to sit on a panel and lose his veto or choose not to sit on the panel in order to retain his veto. On what basis will the Lord Chancellor make that decision? I fear that his decision to sit on the selection panel will raise questions and suspicions which may not be healthy—both for the selection process and for the perception of why the decision has been made. I am therefore concerned both on constitutional and practical grounds. I do not see why we need to disturb the finely crafted balance of accountability and involvement that was arrived at in 2005.
Lord Goodhart
My Lords, the role of the Lord Chancellor is very different from that which existed before the 2005 Act came into effect. We have no certainty at all that future Lord Chancellors will take an equivalent role to that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who was an outstandingly strong and determined Lord Chancellor. The role of Lord Chancellor is now entirely different because it is, in effect, as ordinary a role as a Minister of the Government. It is not a role equivalent to that of the Lord Chancellor before the 2005 came into force.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, I agree entirely with what has been said so far about the inappropriateness of altering the Lord Chancellor’s position from that contained in the 2005 Act. I do not propose to repeat the reasons for that, since they have already been given. I will try to identify, however, one or two further reasons why the same conclusion should be reached.
The relationship between Parliament and the judiciary is central to the operation of our constitution and the Lord Chancellor’s ability in the future. I endorse what has been said about the present Lord Chancellor and I recognise his good motives, but the constitution as devised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and myself, first in the concordat and then in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, referred specifically to the role of the Lord Chancellor being limited to giving either an affirmative response or applying a veto. That was done because it needed to be clear beyond peradventure that he had the responsibility of saying no to a recommendation of the Judicial Appointments Commission, if anyone was to do so. Because of that, if he did not exercise that power, the situation would be one where it could not be said afterwards that the Government of the day had not given consent to an appointment which was in fact made.
Secondly, there is a provision in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 which provides that if the Lord Chancellor decides to exercise his veto, he has to do so openly and give reasons for it. If he is a member of the commission responsible for the appointment, the part that the Lord Chancellor plays will not be known. The experience in other jurisdictions is clear. One of the problems of having an independent appointments commission is that deals will be done. For example, if the Lord Chief Justice and the president are both up for appointment at the same time, it is only human nature for the commission to come to a decision. If the members of the commission do not all agree, they will give the Lord Chancellor either the Lord Chief Justice or the president, as long as they have the other appointment. That would be highly undesirable.
For example, it can be seen clearly in other jurisdictions that the Executive can control what the judiciary does if it can only achieve a senior judge who is sympathetic to its cause. I will cite but one example. One could assign a judge who is regarded as giving unhelpful decisions to parts of the jurisdiction that are unattractive in which to operate. So far, that has not happened here. We do not want to make it easier for it to happen than is the position at the present time.
My final point is this. The amendment must be looked at in conjunction with the amendment we considered on Monday whereby the Lord Chancellor would give up any responsibility for the appointment of the great majority of judges. We are going to have a situation where he does not exercise any powers in regard to a large number of judges and, in addition, he does not openly take an active part in the appointment of very senior judges. I suggest that such a position would be a retrograde one, and therefore the amendment is one that the Committee should look upon favourably.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble and learned Lord in the constitutional points that he and others have made in supporting this amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, summed it up very well in his Second Reading speech when he said that if this provision in the Government’s Bill went through, the Lord Chancellor would be in a position of giving advice to himself, which in itself is anomalous, if nothing more.
As other noble Lords have made the constitutional points most effectively, I wonder whether I could raise just an administrative question with the Minister. It seems to me surprising that the Government should propose such a potentially flexibly arrangement for the Lord Chancellor in relation to these very senior appointments as it seems to be the Lord Chancellor’s personal choice whether he takes part in a selection panel or not. As far as I can make out from reading the Bill, this may mean that he decides to sit on appointment body “A” but not on appointment body “B”. A question arises about the consistency of the appointing panel’s approach. There is also the rather bizarre question about what happens if the Lord Chancellor decides that he will not be a member of that panel and the panel has been constituted, as we understand it, in the legislation. Who replaces him, how is that replacement chosen, and to whom is he responsible? For all the reasons that noble Lords have given, I suggest that this is both constitutionally and administratively inappropriate. That is why I would be very happy to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, should he ask the Committee to give an opinion on it today.
I make one further point to reinforce the point which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was making about the change in the Lord Chancellor’s position. This was confirmed in the hearings that the Constitution Committee held on this matter by the present office-holder himself, the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, when he said:
“I think that we will have a Lord Chancellor who is not a lawyer. The lawyers that we have, including me, will not be as senior and distinguished as they used to be ... A better understanding of my role would be to describe me as Secretary of State for Justice”.
That seems to underline the points about potential politicisation, which other noble Lords have made.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I agree entirely with what has already been said but I wonder whether I might add another point. I refer to a situation where a Lord Chancellor is not a lawyer or a very senior person but perhaps wants to make his mark in the political world and is much more overtly political than the present Lord Chancellor, who is very distinguished in his own right in the law. I ask the Minister to visualise the meeting of the commission. The Lord Chancellor is a member of the commission. He has a role as the Secretary of State for Justice, but he is only a single member among a number of people. Either he is going to be very powerful and he is going to override what everybody else wants, or he is not going to be very powerful, and he is going to be very dissatisfied with not being able to carry the commission with him. Either way would be extraordinarily unsatisfactory for someone who is head of the administration of justice in running the courts and has some responsibility for the judiciary. It is yet another point that leads me to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
My Lords, I too wish to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I see this part of the Bill as being one of those ideas which starts with good intent but has risks attached to it: it is the law of unintended consequences. I can understand that those who have looked at the appointment of senior judiciary and have seen the absence of women, for example, have thought that perhaps if somebody—the Lord Chancellor—were sitting on that panel, he would be able to represent more vociferously public concerns about the way in which appointments are recreating the same people. I can see that that was the intention of giving a role to the Lord Chancellor in the current appointment procedures.
However, we must be very conscious of the risks. We should be concerned about the way in which this could be detrimental to our constitutional arrangements and could be the beginning of a much more politicised role for the Secretary of State as Lord Chancellor sitting on such committees. I say this because, regarding the slide to such things, we always say, “Oh, it could not happen here”. I have just heard the decision made in Europe today that the new judge to be appointed to the European Court of Human Rights will not be the preferred candidate coming forward from Britain. The person appointed was pushed by the Conservatives in Europe and supported by Russia and Serbia. The best candidate, Ben Emmerson, one of our most distinguished human rights lawyers, did not get that role because of politicking of the ugliest kind. He was considered to be too protective of human rights.
We should be ashamed of what has happened in that appointment process and we should be aware of what happens when politics enters the fray in judicial appointments and how it can often lead to unsatisfactory outcomes. I raise this as a warning because it happens all too easily. The best candidate has been lost to the European Court of Human Rights and it has happened because of an ugly form of politicking.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, I fear that I will be in a minority of one, which is always a rather brave position, but it is important to put another perspective. That is what the House of Lords is very good at, so I rise to put that other perspective.
The Government’s position is essentially about whether the so-called nuclear option is the way forward or, as I would put it, whether the power to reject after the process, or influence, is the right way forward. I should have declared at the outset that I, too, am a member of the Constitution Committee, but I was not a member when its most excellent report on judicial appointments came out earlier this year.
I note the Constitution Committee’s recommendations in this regard. It states that the Lord Chancellor’s inclusion on a selection commission risks politicising the process, an argument which we have heard today. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the text of that report, which shows that the committee’s witnesses were in two camps; it was not a straightforward matter even at the time. There were those who thought that the current system was the only way to preserve the independence of the judiciary and there were those who believed that the political angle was invariably part of the greater balance of considerations. Among those who felt that the Lord Chancellor should have an increased role were Lord Justice Goldring, Jack Straw MP, a former Lord Chancellor, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale.
Even when resisting greater involvement, the Constitution Committee states at paragraph 25 of its report that it is important to maintain the connection between Parliament, the Executive and the judiciary partly so that,
“the government cannot entirely wash their hands of what is happening”—
I believe that those were the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf—
“and partly to enable the Lord Chancellor better to defend the judges from attack by taking responsibility for the system which appointed them”,
which I believe were the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. The issue then is the extent to which the independence of the senior judiciary will be compromised if the Lord Chancellor sits as a non-chairing, non-voting member of the selection commission. We are talking of two instances only. We are talking of the positions of the President of the Supreme Court and the Lord Chief Justice.
Six years to evaluate the current system is a very short time—I am talking about the six years since the Constitutional Reform Act—but, in the longer term, a given Lord Chancellor may wish to exercise the right to reject or ask for reconsideration of a nomination. We also need to remember, in that context, that this Lord Chancellor, whoever he or she may be, will get only one name coming forward. He will not have a choice of three candidates, hierarchically or non-hierarchically ordered, and make a judgment as to which of those two or three might be the best candidate. He will have the very stark choice indeed of exercising the nuclear option—rejection—and I suggest that, as things stand under the Constitutional Reform Act, it would be virtually impossible to exercise that nuclear option. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, himself explained to the House that you have to give your reasons in writing for doing so.
Baroness Prashar
To describe the question of rejection or reconsideration as “the nuclear option” is not really appropriate because it is part of the process. I would use the word influence. In fact, the Lord Chancellor has the opportunity to discuss the process, is consulted at appropriate times during the process and is able to give a view of the kind of person he or she would like. So it is not right to call it a nuclear option. He has the opportunity to be involved and have a say in the process.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
I am afraid that, unusually, I have to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. It is widely referred to as a nuclear option—we could call it the veto, perhaps, but it is very well known that it is a veto and a very final kind of veto, in that not only does one exercise the veto—if one chooses to do so—but one has to give reasons in writing for arriving at that decision. It is a very tough position to take. The pool from which the candidate would be drawn is so small and so intimately known to one another—the judges of the Supreme Court, for example—that a rejection would be known and would, indeed, indicate a significant level of political interference. It would inevitably get out that a veto had been exercised and people would draw their own inferences as to what had happened. I suggest that that would indicate a huge level of political interference. It would probably leak to the media; there would be wide speculation in and around the legal profession. It would truly be seen, I am afraid, as a nuclear option.
The reality of this provision is that it gives power to several other entities, but not to the individual who is, in the words of the Constitution Committee report, at paragraph 26, responsible and,
“accountable to Parliament for the overall appointments process”.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
Taking up what the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, said, as I understand it this is not just a question of a name going to a Lord Chancellor who has no idea what has gone on before. If there was to be the slightest doubt that this candidate was not suitable, there would have been enormous discussions at a much earlier stage. It is almost inconceivable that somebody would go forward who was known to have reasons for not being acceptable and unless those reasons are such that the Lord Chancellor felt that he could say that, they ought to have been known already.
This does not work in isolation; the judges and the Lord Chancellor discuss a large number of matters extremely carefully over quite a long time. There is no isolation of the Lord Chancellor and his team from the senior judiciary and the appointments commission which is discussing this. I think that the noble Baroness is assuming that the Lord Chancellor is in an ivory tower, not knowing anything until the name comes to him. That is not the position.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
I say to the noble and learned Baroness that if that non-transparent process that she describes, which sounds like the old game of clubbing together to fix it all up, is indeed accurate, there should be no reason for the amendment. In that case, if it is all so chummy, why not have the Lord Chancellor sit on the panel?
The power to veto seems to contradict Section 3(6)(a) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which places a statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to defend the independence of the judiciary. Not for the first time, one part of an Act—the duty to defend the independence of the judiciary—sits uneasily with the process as defined. Moreover, the process requires the Lord Chancellor to put his reasons in writing. I have already commented on that. It would be far better in increasing transparency and enhancing accountability for the Lord Chancellor to be a member of the selection commission —listening, participating and evaluating the candidate being questioned, without a veto over the appointment—than, after the fact, disagreeing with the selection commission.
In conclusion, I touch on the point made that either a very powerful Lord Chancellor would sit on the commission panel and influence it to go in the direction that he wanted; or, if the Government got their way, that the Lord Chancellor, having sat on the selection panel, could not persuade the panel of his views on an individual candidate and would be deeply dissatisfied because he did not carry the selection panel with him.
I argue that his potential for dissatisfaction would be greater if he had not exercised the veto and was therefore stuck with someone he found it difficult to work with. In fact, it could be said that he would take greater responsibility for working with a candidate with whom he did not entirely agree if he were on the selection panel and had been overruled. He would have been part of the decision-making, he would have been there and heard the argument why the majority of the commission wanted to go in a certain direction and would therefore have to suck it and see. On that basis, I have a lot of sympathy with the Government on the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, going back some 25 years, I remember being warned in 1987: “You realise, don’t you, that Mrs Thatcher has never appointed anybody as a High Court judge who has been overtly political?”. I was about to stand for the 1987 election. I stood; I lost for the eighth time; but that did not dissuade me. My point is that then, how the system worked was completely opaque. You did not know what recommendations were being made. You did not know when you had scored a black mark. I recall a close colleague once seeing his file in the Lord Chancellor’s Department, which said in terms that he had fought and lost eight elections as a Liberal candidate—he was so close a colleague that he had been mixed up with me. I am sure that that held him back for a long time from obtaining the appointment that he ultimately did.
I was slightly shocked to hear that we still have a non-transparent system whereby the Lord Chancellor is consulted and becomes involved in the appointment of judges, although there is nothing formal about it. I did not know that. It is opaque. The Bill makes it absolutely transparent that the Lord Chancellor will play a part, and I think it is very good that he should. He should listen to other people who are high in the profession and to what a lay person thinks of a particular appointment. His view may change. I do not think that the Lord Chancellor would necessarily dominate such a selection committee, certainly not if he has a political angle. There may be a toing and froing of views within that committee but we will know that it is happening because he is on it. Consequently it will be a far more satisfactory system than what we have heard is happening now: the Lord Chancellor, without it being in any statute, is involved in some way. That is wrong and I think that the Bill is preferable.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I was rather appalled by the mischaracterisation by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, of what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said. My experience as Lord Chancellor, when not making the appointments, was that I remained regularly in touch with the judiciary. If I had not remained regularly in touch with the judiciary on issues such as the funding of courts and the difficulties that the judges were facing, I would have regarded myself as not performing my job as Lord Chancellor correctly. If you are a Lord Chancellor—or now, Secretary of State for Justice—who does not know the leadership of the judiciary, that would be a very bad thing. Indeed this idea expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford—that it is in some way a sort of secret-sounding basis—is wrong. I am sure that his misunderstanding was not deliberate. He was looking back to a time 20 years ago when he was looking for a position.
This side of the Committee supports the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. We earnestly ask the Government to think again about this provision. Perhaps I may explain why we take that view. The basis of the settlement reached and approved in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 was that the time had come for the appointment of judges to be clearly depoliticised. The justification for the process that then existed was that although the Lord Chancellor was Labour or Tory and appointed by the Prime Minister, he nevertheless had especial independent roles that made it possible for a political appointment to appoint the judiciary.
We in the then Government took the view, supported by the Liberal Democrats and endorsed by both Houses of Parliament, that in a period of time and a generation where people had to have complete confidence that the judiciary was not being appointed on a political basis, there needed to be a structure in which people would have confidence that you were appointed on your merits as a respected judge. That was the basis of the constitutional settlement reached. Those who considered it in detail were of the view—and I agreed with this view—that the state, the Executive, had to have a stake in the appointment of judges so that there was part of the Executive in Parliament that would defend the system and defend the appointments. That is why the Lord Chancellor has the power to veto some appointments and to reject others.
It is incredibly important for the standing of the judiciary and the separation of powers that that essential separation—that essential constitutional settlement—not be affected. The proposal made by the coalition goes right to the heart of that constitutional settlement. Bringing the Secretary of State into the process would not even have the redeeming feature of the old-style Lord Chancellors, which is that they had an independent role as a judge as well as being a politically appointed Minister. What Ken Clarke said about his role—my noble friend Lady Jay has quoted it—exactly reflects what the constitutional settlement envisaged; namely that he should be a member of the Cabinet with a particular statutory duty as imposed in Section 1, but essentially a political Minister without anything else to distinguish him from other Ministers in the Government. The two roles that we are talking about here are the president of the Supreme Court and the Lord Chief Justice. The president of the Supreme Court is probably the most important judge for the whole of the United Kingdom. The Lord Chief Justice is undoubtedly the most important judge for England and Wales.
The proposal envisages that the commission appointing the president of the Supreme Court should consist of one person who is not legally qualified, one judge of the court, one member of the Judicial Appointments Commission for England and Wales, one for Scotland and one from Northern Ireland, and, if he chooses, the Lord Chancellor. I know Ken Clarke well and admire him greatly. I have absolutely no doubt that, in a group such as that, he would have no difficulty in ensuring that his choice was obtained. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is shaking his head, but I tell noble Lords that Ken Clarke’s choice would prevail. It would not just be a matter of appearance; it would be a matter of actuality. Go forward in time and imagine someone not of the ethical quality and standard of Ken Clarke as Lord Chancellor. For example, there is the example given by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws: “I don’t want the best lawyer; I want the person who is most against the Human Rights Act”. That is a perfectly conceivable position for a Lord Chancellor to take.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
That is absolutely not what I said; that is a mischaracterisation entirely. I said that if a Lord Chancellor exercised a veto and rejected a candidate and, as he would have to, gave his reasons for doing so in writing, given that it is such a small and intimate community, not only would everyone else know that this had happened but inevitably it would leak into the legal papers. That is what I was saying. I was not saying that the transparency would come from the leak but that huge damage would be done by that happening.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
As I understand it, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, is saying that gossip would be the way that transparency would come. No? Explain again.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Forgive me. I am describing what could potentially happen; I am not saying that that would be transparent. All I am trying to say is that very few vetoes are exercised. There are vetoes in other positions as well—the Prime Minister has the power of veto over several other appointments, for example—but apparently they are seldom used; I could find the figures for the noble and learned Lord. I think that one of the reasons why they are so infrequently used is the damage that it might do if it got out that they had been used.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I think that there is a misunderstanding here. As I understand it, the noble Baroness is saying that when the veto is used it is kept secret. It is not, so there is no question of gossip. The Lord Chancellor is willing to use that veto where appropriate. I have no problem with that and it does not cause difficulty. In the proposed system, there would be no transparency about the role that the political Minister had played; indeed, it would be assumed that he or she was the person who had dominated the process. It would profoundly undermine the settlement. At the moment, I can see no benefit from it. I have not had the pleasure and privilege of reading the letter that was sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. I have heard the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, which was very persuasive in many respects. However, I am unable at the moment to see the basis for departing from a constitutional settlement that is intended to ensure the sanctity of the process. It is an independent process in which one is judged on one’s merits, and it keeps politics out of it except for the exercise of a transparent veto.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Would the noble and learned Lord not agree that it was not the best moment in the appointment of the judiciary, and that it does appear that political influences were coming into the question of who was to be appointed? Would it not have been better for the difficulties and the problems between the Lord Chancellor and the appointments commission to have been sorted out in a committee, such as that proposed in this Bill?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Game, set and match to this side. As I understand it, the noble Lord is asking whether it is so wrong that people might think that political influences have been brought to bear on the appointment, because the Lord Chancellor, performing a constitutional role, says explicitly “I don’t want”, or “I am thinking of vetoing”, the choice that has been made on legal merits. As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, are saying, “Let’s keep all the political influences secret”. The noble Lord is shaking his head; I am not sure what he has in mind.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I am not saying that. I am saying that had the Lord Chancellor been able to discuss in a committee—such as that is proposed—the merits of the particular candidate, we would not have had something which did not do the judiciary any good.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
If the Lord Chancellor said “I want this candidate” and persuaded everybody, none of that would have been apparent. People would doubt the independence of the appointment from the political situation, or the political influences on the position. Do not be under any illusion; if the Lord Chancellor proceeds with this proposal, those people who have had dealings with the constitutional settlement will think that he is, without properly understanding it, going against the basis of the constitutional settlement which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, worked so hard to get through. As he said on Monday, the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was one of the main Liberal Democrat architects of the constitutional settlement, as was, as he also acknowledged on Monday, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. What on earth is the reason for so undermining the political independence of the judiciary?
For these reasons we support the amendments that are being made. If, as I think is unlikely, they are put to the vote today, we will support them. I earnestly ask that the Minister reconsiders the Government’s position on this, and the Lord Chief Justice’s position. It would be a really bad idea if people thought that a Conservative or Labour Secretary of State for Justice, not the Lord Chancellor, had appointed the Lord Chief Justice and the president of the Supreme Court.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, I am grateful to those who have taken part in this, which is an interesting and important debate on a very important constitutional issue. I am not sure that I share the analysis of these proposals. As I said before, the Lord Chancellor is determined to defend the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary. We are committed to the constitutional settlement that was brought in by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, when he was in office. But, as I said earlier, we are making proposals which, with the passage of time, improve on that settlement. The debate today is part of that.
Interestingly enough, I was flicking through Hansard for Monday evening. The noble and learned Lord is always passionate and eloquent, but he was particularly passionate and eloquent then. He was urging us not to take the Executive out of decisions on appointments in the lower courts. Well, that is what it says.
Lord McNally
Yes. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord would like to turn to column 112 of the Hansard of 25 June when, as I say, he was quite passionately making the case for the Executive being involved.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Indeed I was. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, was agreeing with me that the way you do it is to have an independent process of appointment which the Executive must endorse, or not, so that there is somebody responsible in Parliament to defend it. Does the noble Lord agree with that approach?
Lord McNally
The noble and learned Lord was saying that the Executive should be kept in the process. The noble and learned Lord is marvellous; he spends half his interventions twisting the words of people who disagree with him, and when anybody tries to put him right, he starts protesting.
Of course the Lord Chancellor is accountable to Parliament. That is central to the settlement. He is responsible to the public for the overall process of judicial appointments and the effective working of the judicial system. It is important, at this very senior level of the judiciary, that as well as possessing first-rate judicial skills, candidates for the leadership roles are alive to the management and administrative issues that affect the administration of justice and are able to work with the Government on developing the system. This is an area where the view of the Lord Chancellor is likely to be of particular importance. This is therefore a legitimate role for the Lord Chancellor to play in the most senior judicial appointment.
I know that the noble and learned Lord has a kind of sense of ownership of the constitutional settlement.
Lord McNally
Well, if he is happy to change it, perhaps he will listen to the argument for making just the smallest tweak in the perfect construction that he left for us. That means that it should be balanced appropriately against judicial and lay input into the process. It should respect, as I have said, the independence of the judiciary.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Lay input is how you get management experience, I agree. What is wrong with the non-legally qualified person, the member of the Northern Ireland commission, the member of the Scottish commission and the member of the English commission? There is a quite substantial balance of lay people already.
Lord McNally
We had a very vigorous discussion about this when we had a second go in front of the Constitution Committee. Looking at those three top jobs—the presidency, the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor—I was struck by the fact that it is not just judicial excellence but a whole fingertip interrelationship that makes those three jobs work. That is why the Lord Chancellor is arguing, and I am convinced of this—it is not just a matter of me saying, “The Government believe”—that an input into the selection process at the selection board—
Lord Woolf
I speak as one of the three the Minister refers to. Does he not agree that there is a danger of those three being too cosy? That would be in a situation where they do not feel that they can take a separate line from the Lord Chancellor, who controls the resources and is particularly powerful. All I can say is that if he does take that view, he should remember that my very distinguished predecessor, on one particular occasion, refused to see the Home Secretary of the day and the Home Secretary was deeply offended. That was because he did not think much of that sort of cosiness, which I know to the Minister is very attractive. With my experience, I am bound to say that he is wrong. He should listen; there are times to be cosy and times not to be cosy. That is something that needs to be taken into account.
Lord McNally
This is my problem as a simple lad dealing with these Silks. I have never used the word “cosy” about the relationship. I have had a chance look at the relationship in the last two years; the last way I would describe the relationship between the Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, is “cosy”. It is businesslike; it is working; but it has an interrelationship which I think is important.
Giving the Lord Chancellor a role in these appointments is not new. As has been said, he already has a role in deciding whether to accept or reject the recommendation of a selection panel. The question is, therefore, how should that input be realised? I understand the different views put forward in the debate, but the Government’s view is that, for these two most senior appointments, given their significant role in the administration of justice, the most appropriate way of achieving this input is to allow the Lord Chancellor to sit on the panels. He can then consider the views of other panel members, submit his own views and engage with the panel members in a meaningful discussion about candidates.
The current system allows the Lord Chancellor to veto a selection panel’s recommendations. This is in itself a major role, but may be viewed as something of a nuclear option—that is what it says in my briefing notes. I think that that option is the one that could only be used in exceptional circumstances and with potentially a heavy price for the relationship with the judiciary and perception of political interference. I do not necessarily agree that these perceptions would be justified, but they are certainly factors which would inhibit the use of the veto. In place of the veto, Schedule 12 provides for a more effective engagement.
A fear has been expressed that this would give the Lord Chancellor disproportionate influence and that the present Lord Chancellor would dominate the proceedings. Perish the thought. Being on the panel, or even having that Lord Chancellor on the panel, would not necessarily mean that the Lord Chancellor would ultimately get his way on the individual appointed, but it would mean that he would have the opportunity to be engaged in the process and make his views known to the other panel members. We are talking about a panel of heavy hitters—a lay chair, plus senior members of the judiciary and appointment commissioners who are strong and independent-minded individuals. They will not simply fall into line with the Lord Chancellor of the day. The Lord Chancellor would have an opportunity to make his case but could also be persuaded of a contrary case by other panel members. However, where the Lord Chancellor does make a persuasive case of the merits of a particular candidate, this could be weighed in the balance in the same way by other panel members.
There are, of course, other possible ways of securing the input of the Lord Chancellor, but we do not consider that any are as effective as our proposal. We could, for example, allow the Lord Chancellor to select a candidate from a shortlist, or through some form of parliamentary hearing. However, we consider that the risk of politicisation of the process from these options is far more acute.
Another option would be to consult the Lord Chancellor at the start of the process. There is nothing wrong with that, but we consider that this is not as effective as having the Lord Chancellor be a member of the panel and be able to put forward his views, listen to the views of others and engage with them in a meaningful way.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I wonder whether the Minister could answer a point that he has not yet answered, which has been made by several people. There is a perception that if the Lord Chancellor is on the panel, the appointment will be politicised. For those who do not know the process but see that the Lord Chancellor has been one of those who has appointed the Lord Chief Justice, there will be a perception, certainly among lawyers and much more widely, that the Lord Chancellor has had a very large part to play in making that person the Lord Chief Justice and that it would be the sort of person who would suit him.
Lord McNally
I was about to come to the interventions of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. I do not think that my noble friend Lady Falkner got it wrong at all, despite her being bullied by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, who I have never thought of as someone who it was possible to bully. However, if the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was under that impression, that just goes to show how wrong perceptions can develop.
Lord McNally
Turning to the other noble Baronesses, to get them going as well, there did seem to be a suggestion of, “Don’t worry, because the present system already has the nudges, nods and winks that will get”—
Baroness Prashar
I do not want to go into detail but, as the noble Lord knows, I had the privilege of being involved in some of these selection processes. When a selection panel is set up, there is a proper, transparent way of consulting at the appropriate time. There were no nudges and nods. In my initial submission, I said that I think that the present system works because, if there is a rejection or a reconsideration, it focuses the mind and is done in an open way. It is the inability of the people to be discreet that muddies the water. It is a most gossip-ridden world. In other worlds, when appointments are made, people respect confidentiality. However, the process was very open and transparent. Therefore, there is no question of nudges and nods.
Lord McNally
If it is such a gossip-ridden world, the better it would be to have the Lord Chancellor fully and transparently in the process. I am afraid that all that one can say is that strong opinions are held.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
I am a non-lawyer who, I am glad to say, was not part of the constitutional settlement in 2005. If the noble Lord described himself disingenuously as a simple lad, I am even worse as a simple laddess. I am trying to get a vision of this construct that the Minister has explained of either my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer or the present holder of the office of Lord Chancellor, the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, being subdued members of a totally egalitarian panel on which the merits of the candidates are discussed in a constructive and totally relaxed way, and the subdued and reticent Lord Chancellor finds himself in a minority. Should the panel recommend that Judge X becomes a member of the Supreme Court, the Lord Chancellor, having been this subdued and reticent member of the panel, could feel that it is wrong. What, then, are the prospects for effective working between them?
Lord McNally
Quite often in politics, in the law and in other parts of life, one finds oneself working with someone whom you do not particularly like. The difference this time is that there would be no political veto to that committee’s decision. It is worth putting on record that this would be a Lord Chancellor withdrawing his veto from those appointments. Yet, with his silken sophistry, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, implies that this is an extension of political power. It is just the opposite of the extension of political interference.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I was not implying it; I was saying it expressly, because that is plainly what is happening.
Lord McNally
It is simply not true, and anyone who is looking at this sees that it is a move away from a politician being able to exercise a veto to a politician transparently taking part in a process. If the Members of this Committee cannot see that, we will presumably withdraw it or take it back.
Lord Beecham
What, in the experience of the past seven years, has revealed defects in the present system?
Lord McNally
It has been the feeling that the retention of a veto in this matter was keeping in the political process.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
So why is a veto being kept for every other member of the Supreme Court, every member of the Court of Appeal and every member of the High Court?
Lord McNally
I have explained before that this unique triumvirate is very important, and that that is why we have adopted a very distinctive way of making this selection. I am not sure how far I can take the Committee, except perhaps to read from the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said he had not had the pleasure of sharing. In that letter I said: “At the present the Lord Chancellor decides at the end of the selection process whether to accept or reject the name put forward by the panel or to ask for the panel’s decision to be reconsidered. In practice, under these current arrangements it may be difficult to make use of the veto in these high-profile cases without risking perception of politicisation of the process. This difficulty was acknowledged by Lord Phillips and others in their evidence to your committee”—that is, the committee of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay. “The Government therefore considers that allowing the Lord Chancellor to sit on the panel will enable his accountability to be exercised in a more direct and effective way. You will, of course, be aware that the Lord Chancellor’s involvement as a member of the selection panel was supported in evidence to the Constitutional Committee by both the Lord Chief Justice and the president of the UK Supreme Court”. So I am not isolated in this view.
Lord Goodhart
My Lords, is it not more difficult for the Lord Chancellor to object to someone publicly rather than to discuss the appointment in a group of which he is a member? Does that not mean, therefore, that if the Minister tries to remove the person, he will do so only if there is very strong evidence to show that it is an unsatisfactory appointment, whereas if he is part of a group, the other members of the group might be more likely to go along with what the Minister says at that point?
Lord McNally
I have to say that if I was a member of a body charged with selecting a Lord Chief Justice or a president of the Supreme Court, no Lord Chancellor, however strong willed, would make me change my views unless his arguments were extremely persuasive; and I would expect the same respect for my views. We are not talking about a group of pussycats; we are talking about some very senior figures with great experience. I can see that those who have attended this Committee do not agree, but the simple fact is that we consider that our proposals strike the right balance in providing both the legitimate accountability for the executive in these roles and an independent and transparent process. They take away a political veto and put in its place a transparent involvement in a selection. I have set that out very clearly for the Committee.
Baroness Neuberger
I am sorry to ask the Minister this, but surely the presence of the Lord Chancellor on a committee of selection is a political statement in itself. It is worrying that the Minister should say that it removes a political presence. It just moves the position from what is a very public veto if, at the end of an independent process, the Lord Chancellor decides that he does not wish to go along with a recommendation to something that is less public but just as political. I find that really worrying, and I know that I am on record as saying that it is a constitutional disgrace.
Lord McNally
That is the noble Baroness’s opinion, but, again, she is suggesting words that I never used. I did not say a “political presence”. What I said was that, to me, the political veto was the intrusion into the process. It has been acknowledged by a number of contributors that if the Lord Chancellor is not in this narrow world where the decision and the selections are made, he will be the elephant in the room. This process gives the Lord Chancellor the chance to have an input in a selection but, as opposed to what the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, suggested, he will not have a veto. When the panel makes its decision, there will be no political veto. I should have thought that that would be welcomed by this Committee.
Lord Martin of Springburn
Perhaps I may ask the Minister about one point on which I would like clarification. It has been fascinating to listen to both sides of the argument. The Minister mentioned a lay chairman or chairwoman. From what walk of life would a lay chairman or chairwoman come?
Lord McNally
I shall have to take advice on that. I should have thought that he or she would come from the court of cardinals. I am not sure, but it would undoubtedly be a chairman or chairwoman of distinction and merit who had experience in these matters.
Lord Woolf
Might I suggest the former chairman of the commission, who is present here today.
Lord McNally
I saw her shifting slightly and thought she was going to volunteer to come back to the job.
Baroness Prashar
I thank the Minister for giving way. I now want to turn to another point on which I and the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, asked a question. The provision states that the Lord Chancellor “may” sit on the panel. If that is the case, on what basis will he decide to sit on the panel? If he decides to do so, will that not send a different signal? Will it not suggest that there is a reason why he wants to sit on the panel or a reason why he decides not to do so? I think that that will create an unhelpful perception.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, mentioned that I also raised a point on this matter. If the Lord Chancellor decides not to sit on one of these panels, does he not retain the right of veto, and that therefore the disappearance of the veto, on which the Minister has been relying so greatly, is not in fact universal?
Lord McNally
No. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness because I should have clarified this point. The Bill says that the Lord Chancellor “may” be a member, but we intend to bring forward regulations setting out that the Lord Chancellor “will” be a member of the panel. This will not be able to be changed other than by a new regulation, which will be subject to affirmative procedures and agreement and to the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice and the president of the Supreme Court.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I would be rather averse, as would this House, to the constitution being changed in this way by regulations.
Lord McNally
I take note of what the noble and learned Lord says. I am merely saying what the intention is. Clearly—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I say that it is a deceptive question for the reasons that underlay the question of my noble friend Lady Jay. We thought that sometimes you would and sometimes you would not, but apparently you are always going to be a member of the panel.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I am sorry—this is only my second intervention but it is my last one. Something as important as this should not be put in a regulation. Why can there not be a government amendment on Report so that we know where the Government stand?
Lord McNally
I shall take that question back. In the mean time, the Government’s case has been set out. The trouble with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is that he listens only to himself and is then convinced by all the arguments that he hears. I have listened to others in the Committee. We are in the debt of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for stimulating such a debate. However, if he wants to divide the Committee, I am reasonably confident that he will lose.
Lord McNally
Try me. I think that the issues that have been raised are such that it would be better to have another run at them on Report.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, before the Committee sat I informed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that I was fairly relaxed and neutral about his amendment. However, the more I have listened to the argument, the more I have come down on the Government’s side. I recall the very unseemly row when the former Lord Chancellor’s veto was exercised in relation to an appointment, and I believe that I put down a Parliamentary Question. I think that he reversed his decision before I got the Answer, but I certainly tabled a Question about it. There was a furore at the Bar and I was approached by many people to do what I could to defend the reputation of a person who was considered to be the best judge in a particular division. It was extremely unseemly and the Lord Chancellor backed down. What did that say? He had given his veto and then he withdrew it and the appointment went ahead. All these matters should have been sorted out but not in such a public way as to damage the reputation of the person concerned and damage the reputation of the Lord Chancellor, if it needed to be damaged any further. It did not resolve the situation.
I have heard the debate and, as I understand it, the Lord Chancellor does have discussions behind the scenes with the Appointments Commission. That is what was said in terms by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. I do not think that that is right. I think we should have an open system. She said that it was open and transparent. It was not—I did not know about it, although I was sufficiently involved to put down a Parliamentary Question about the matter in issue.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
How would the discussions between the Lord Chancellor and the other members of the committee that the noble Lord envisages be transparent?
Lord Thomas of Gresford
The fact that it is happening is transparent. That is where the argument can be held and not in public, which damages people’s reputations. The noble Lord said that the Lord Chancellor will always have his way. What sort of a pushover does he think these people in the commission are that they will simply bow down to a political figure? I do not believe that the chairs of the Judicial Appointments Commission in Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales are going to follow a political lead because the Lord Chancellor does not like someone on political grounds. He may have some knowledge that does not involve the politics of the matter and that would persuade the other members of the commission, but I do not think that he would persuade them on political grounds, which is what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said. He nods. Perhaps he was a very persuasive Lord Chancellor in private.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Under the new system, I would have the power. That is the point.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
He had the veto, although I do not think that he ever exercised it.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I never exercised the veto, although my successor considered it and everything was open.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Why did he exercise it? We do not know. Did he say so at the time? He did not say, “For political reasons I do not want that person as the head of the division”. He did not give us his reasons. It was not discussed with anybody. He just vetoed that appointment and it was unfairly damaging to the person concerned.
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to the Minister, who says that he has been listening. I am sure that he has been, and I have listened to what he has said. I will certainly want to reflect, as I am sure the House will, on what the Minister described as a very important debate—and he is right. This goes to the heart of the relationship between the Executive and the judiciary. The Minister said that it is important to keep the Lord Chancellor in the process because the Lord Chancellor is responsible to Parliament and these are appointments at the very apex of the system. The Minister is right and no one disputes that the Lord Chancellor must have a role. The question is whether that role is best fulfilled as a member of the appointments commission.
The Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, emphasised that the veto is a nuclear option. There are two points to make about the Lord Chancellor’s existing powers. First, the fact that the veto is so difficult to exercise in political terms is highly material to the influence that the Lord Chancellor currently has. We need to be very careful about expanding the political role of the Lord Chancellor, or at least the political potential for involvement, through an appointments commission process. The second point, which has been made very forcefully by noble Lords who know how the system works, is that the Lord Chancellor at present does not just have a veto which is difficult to exercise. He can and does make his views known to the appointments commission during the process of consideration for appointment to these posts. There is nothing improper or secret about that. It is not a question of nudges and winks. It is called consultation. Plainly, the Lord Chancellor is entitled to be consulted by the special appointments commission that is going to appoint to these highly important posts. If the current system has defects, the alternative proposed by the Government is far worse, for all the reasons that have been pointed out, and no more transparent.
I will certainly reflect on this debate and I am sure the whole House will want to reflect on the matter and return to it on Report. I hope that the Government will reconsider this question over the summer and I am sure that if, as we have been told today for the first time, it is the Government’s intention that the Lord Chancellor will sit on the appointments commission, it is highly desirable that the Bill expressly makes that clear so that we all know what the Government intend on this matter of fundamental constitutional concern. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.
Lord McNally
Lord McNally
My Lords, I can be relatively brief with this group of amendments as they are essentially technical in nature. Amendment 123 modifies amendments to paragraph 11 of Schedule 12 to the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which concerns the appointment of the vice-chairman of the Judicial Appointments Commission. As drafted, paragraph 19 of Schedule 12 to the Bill amends the 2005 Act to provide that the Lord Chancellor may, with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, make regulations to provide for the appointment of the vice-chairman. On reflection, while we continue to believe that greater flexibility is needed for determining the composition of the Judicial Appointments Commission, provisions about the chairman and vice-chairman are matters which ought to appear in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. This amendment restores the requirement that the vice-chairman must be a judicial member. As now, the vice-chairman will continue to be the most senior judicial member of the commission. Determining which judge is the most senior will be done by reference to regulations made by the Lord Chancellor with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice.
Amendment 123 also retains the current restriction that the vice-chairman cannot deputise for the chairman in relation to his or her role on selection panels relating to appointments to the most senior judicial offices. This is because in these instances the role necessitates a lay rather than judicial member. Additionally, the vice-chairman will be unable to exercise the functions of chairman where the function is one specified in regulations to be made by the Lord Chancellor with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice.
Amendment 124 amends paragraph 27 of Schedule 12 to the Bill so as to add to the list of judicial appointments below the High Court for which responsibility for making a decision on a selection by the Judicial Appointments Commission is to be transferred from the Lord Chancellor to the Lord Chief Justice. The appointments in question are those for a senior district judge or chief magistrate and a deputy senior district judge or chief magistrate. The other amendments in this group, namely Amendments 119, 122, 125 to 130 and 133, make minor and technical changes to the provisions in Schedule 12. I can provide further details of these amendments if needed. I beg to move.
Lord Pannick
“8A Section 35(3) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is repealed.
8B A judge of the Supreme Court shall vacate that office on the day on which he attains the age of 75.”
Lord Pannick
My Lords, this amendment is in my name and the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, and two former Lord Chancellors, the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and Lord Mackay of Clashfern. It concerns the retirement age for judges of the Supreme Court. The Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993 lowered the retirement age for the judiciary from 75 to 70, with an exception for those first appointed to judicial office before 31 March 1995. There is a strong case for raising the retirement age back to 75 for Supreme Court judges.
Judges are joining the Bench at a later age than their predecessors. It then takes time for them to rise up the career ladder to reach the Supreme Court, typically in their early to mid-60s. Since those appointed to the Supreme Court are, by definition, the very best of our judges, it is particularly unfortunate that we are disposing of such valuable resources after they have served a short time in office. This argument is specific to the Supreme Court. It is not the case that if the retirement age for Justices of the Supreme Court was to be raised to 75, the same must follow for the magistracy and for all levels of the judiciary in-between. The fact of the matter is that judicial wisdom and experience at the highest level is being lost to our courts, although not to the field of arbitration where retired judges from the Supreme Court are very much in demand for much higher fees than the Lord Chancellor’s department is prepared to pay.
There is no basis for concern that judges tend to lose their mental and physical powers after the age of 70 and up to the age of 75. It is important to recall that these judges are not hearing exhausting witness trials but considering stimulating points of law. Nor is there any basis for concern that a retirement age of 75 in the Supreme Court would result in a court that is less attuned to modern society. Experience is to the contrary. The Appellate Committee of this House and now the Supreme Court are far more innovative than the Court of Appeal, where the average age of the judges tends to be a decade younger.
Nor is there any basis for concern that a retirement age of 75 would hinder the promotion of diversity, an important value that we discussed last Monday. Despite most of the members of the Supreme Court retiring at 75 in recent years—the same was true of the Appellate Committee—there has been a steady flow of vacancies. The appointment of only one woman to the Appellate Committee and to the Supreme Court and of no one from the ethnic minorities, regrettable though that is, has been caused by the perceived lack of suitable candidates and not by any lack of vacancies. Indeed, increasing the age limit to 75 may well enhance the prospects for appointing more women, as so many female judges and lawyers have taken many years out of their careers for family care reasons and may find it more difficult than men to rise to the top by their early 60s.
In our report in March, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee recommended that the retirement age be increased to 75 for Supreme Court judges and for Court of Appeal judges. We advised increasing the retirement age because,
“proven judicial quality and experience are at a premium in the development of the law”.
This amendment focuses only on the Supreme Court because the arguments are especially strong at that level. I look forward to hearing from the Minister the Government’s view on this important topic. I beg to move.
Lord Hart of Chilton
I support the amendment for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I must declare two interests. First, I was a member of the Constitution Committee and heard the evidence and, secondly, some of my best friends are between the ages of 70 and 75. The evidence showed that there was a real risk that we were losing substantial talent from the Supreme Court. There was one particular example of losing someone just at his prime. It would be wrong for the Supreme Court to lose people of enormous proven energy and ability when they have just got into the driving seat of their full power, and to lose talent of that sort when people have risen to that point with only a limited time available to them in the Supreme Court itself.
Lord Gilbert
I hope that the Minister will explain why there should be any compulsory retirement age for Justices of the Supreme Court. I see no justification for it.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, I do not accept my noble friend’s comments. As the noble Lords, Lord Hart of Chilton and Lord Pannick, said, we went into this in some detail in the Constitution Committee. For all the reasons advanced very eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I support the amendment, particularly because of the potential for increasing diversity both in the Supreme Court and, indeed, further down. Both noble Lords have expressed the potential for opening up more opportunities for people who have come through what is described as the non-conventional career path to reach the top of the profession. I—and many members of the Committee —have a personal interest in the concept that 70 is the new 50, so 75 should be the new 55.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, if 70 had been the retirement age for Supreme Court judges, particularly the judges in the House of Lords, we would have lost Lord Bingham before he even got to the House of Lords. We would have lost the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, the present president of the Supreme Court, who goes at 75. He is almost the last of those who are entitled to stay until 75. The first solicitor to get to the Supreme Court, who was of enormous value to it, left after 18 months because he was caught by being aged 70. He was as valuable as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, but he went at 70.
The Supreme Court is losing people who cannot even get there, or who get there for 18 months if, as has already been said, we allow time for people to get through the High Court and the Court of Appeal to the Supreme Court. I think only two judges have gone straight through and one judge came straight from the Bar. Normal process means that we are losing people who are extremely valuable. This has been brought up in Question Time on a number of occasions and the Government really should be looking at it. The previous Government were asked to look at it but, if I may say so, they pushed it to one side. It would be very good if this Government would take it up.
Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone
This has been a most exhilarating debate. I hope that the Minister will be able to use this experience to talk to other colleagues in government about why, for example, a non-executive director on a board has to have annual re-election once over 70. Recently, an Oxbridge college appointed a principal who is 72 and the articles of association had to be changed. I declare an interest because the late Lord Bingham’s son is the best person who works for me in my professional activity so I am, of course, brainwashed in this regard. I never thought of the Lords as pioneers of radical equality measures but I feel that this debate has great potential for professional groups across the economy and society, and certainly across government.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I support the amendment for all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, gave. However, I would suggest an alternative. If we are not going to go to 75, the alternative is to appoint judges to the Supreme Court who have not gone through the processes of the High Court, the Court of Appeal and so on. We have the power now, apparently, to appoint people to the Supreme Court who have not been in the Court of Appeal. It was interesting that, on Monday, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said, “Of course, members of the Supreme Court will have come from the Court of Appeal”. I do not think that that is necessary. I think that the pool should be broadened. There are people in academic life and lawyers at the Bar who would be appropriate as members of the Supreme Court. The age of 70 is ridiculously low. If it is to stay at that, people should be appointed in their 50s—early 50s perhaps—to the Supreme Court without having to go through the cursus honorum required at present.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I strongly support the amendment for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. It is an important amendment on a matter that is already causing difficulty. The loss of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Collins, from the Supreme Court was a direct result of the reduction in the retiring age. The Government now have an opportunity to do something about that, because this is a legislative opportunity.
Lord McNally
My Lords, this is probably the last Chamber on earth where Ministers should be defending a retirement age of 70. I have listened very carefully to what has been said. I understand and sympathise with some of the frustrations. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, just referred to the case where someone comes to senior judicial office for a very short term. I also acknowledge that, in many cases, those judges would be able to continue beyond the age of 70 in terms of their intellectual sharpness. In such cases, they can be a costly loss to the judiciary. I am not sure that I go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, in advocating no retirement age at all—I have always been a strong supporter of a retirement age for this House. However, that goes into a different issue. I see that the noble Lord is about to come up for air.
Lord Gilbert
I am much obliged to the Minister for making reference to my remarks. All I can say is that I have listened to the debate with great care and I have not heard a single reason put forward for a retirement age for judges. Everyone says 70, 75, 80, 85—just picking figures out of the air. It is a nonsense. I am not a candidate for a position in the Supreme Court, but I see no reason at all why there should be any statutory limit for a candidate aged over 85 like me. Could we have a reason?
Lord McNally
As I said, this is hardly the audience for arguing or expecting support for retirement at 70. Indeed, sometimes when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, tells me about his itinerary for the following week, I realise that his idea of retirement is something quite different from that of most normal people. I am well aware that people can make a contribution.
The amendment is astute in singling out the Supreme Court, as it is in this court—which may be the pinnacle of a long career—where taking up office is more likely to occur when a judge is in his or her 60s. This can give rise to particularly unfortunate individual cases where a judge’s term of office may be rather shorter than we would have liked to see. I understand the arguments and the case that has been made. However, these individual cases need to be balanced against the bigger picture and the advantages of a uniform retirement age of 70 across the whole of the judiciary.
Mandatory retirement ages for judicial office-holders have played an important role in ensuring that the judiciary is, and is seen to be, independent. Quite rightly, once appointed to a salaried position, it is difficult to remove a judge from office before retirement. This, of course, is constitutionally correct and removes any risk of unwarranted interference from the Executive. While many judges may be able to continue to work, and to contribute as fully as ever, beyond the age of 70, that will not always be the case. Without the mandatory retirement age, if a judge beyond 70 insisted on continuing, there would be no way of removing him even where his colleagues considered that he was no longer quite as sharp as he used to be. Therefore, a standard retirement age, set at the right level, is needed. I do not think that anybody disagrees with that principle.
The Government consider that 70 is the right level. Indeed, this is at the higher end of international comparisons. It is also important in this context to consider the impact on public confidence in the justice system. The age of 70 strikes a balance between the desire of judges wishing to serve and the public interest in sustaining a judiciary that is fully effective in discharging its responsibilities. The amendment seeks to make a special case for the Supreme Court, so that the mandatory retirement age should be increased to 75. However, the reasoning for the age of 70 applies to judges of the Supreme Court as it does to other judges. People are people, whichever court they are sitting in. The age of 70 is, in our view, the right one—notwithstanding that it may seem premature in individual cases.
The retirement age also contributes to the need to bring in newer judges. Turnover in the senior judiciary is not significant as many judges remain in post until retirement. Given the statutory limit on the numbers of judges who can sit in senior courts, in particular the Supreme Court which is limited to just 12 judges, the opportunity to promote talented members of the judiciary from the lower courts is limited. Extending the retirement age to 75 in the Supreme Court would further limit movement from the Court of Appeal, which would, in turn, reduce opportunities for promotion to the Court of Appeal and have a trickle-down effect through the courts. This would also have the effect of delaying some of the positive impact on diversity, which that we would otherwise see through promotions from the lower courts.
Furthermore, it would be very difficult in practice to sustain a different retirement age just for the Supreme Court. Court of Appeal judges would be very likely also to make the case for extended retirement. A Court of Appeal judge who considers himself or herself a good candidate for appointment to the Supreme Court may find it difficult to accept that he or she had to retire at 70 if the Supreme Court were made up of judges who would automatically go on for another five years. If the age of retirement for the Court of Appeal were also extended, then why not the High Court and so on? If there is a clear business need, it is still possible for judges to continue to serve over the age of 70. Following retirement, members of the Supreme Court may go on to the supplementary panel. As a member of that panel, they might be asked to act as a judge of the Supreme Court. This enables the court to continue to make use of their experience and knowledge —but on a short-term basis.
I have listened to the contributions of the noble Lords and to the plea of my noble friend Lady Bottomley against ageism. Although the Government will keep this under review, we consider, for the reasons outlined, that the current mandatory retirement age of 70, together with the arrangements for sitting ad hoc after retirement, provide a careful balance between using experience, ensuring that the quality of the judiciary is maintained at all levels and ensuring the advancement of fresh talent. I also consider that differential retirement ages of different courts may be very difficult to sustain. We will keep this under review but, in the mean time, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for saying that he will keep this matter under review. I hope that that means that it will be actively looked at before we return to the matter, as I am sure that we will, at Report. My answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, about why we should have retirement age at all, is to point out the considerable difficulty of saying that someone is past it—particularly if they have tenure in the post. That is an extremely difficult task to perform in relation to individuals sitting on the Bench. That is why we have a mandatory retirement age. I have no difficulty with that. As I indicated, I am concerned that the retirement age of 70 is too high. However, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that if he looks at the New York Times of 16 September 2010, he will see that Judge Wesley E Brown was sitting in the United States district court at the age of 103. The article describes how a tube under his nose feeds him oxygen during hearings. Sadly, Judge Brown has since died, but he did continue to an age much greater even than 75.
I do not accept the argument that the retirement age needs to be mandatory across the judiciary. I would hope that we could move to recognising the special position of the Supreme Court for all the reasons given by myself and other noble Lords. I certainly do not accept the argument that public confidence in the judiciary would somehow be undermined were judges to continue to the age of 75. I am not aware of any recent example of the public lacking confidence in our judges on the Appellate Committee—now in the Supreme Court—because they were between the ages of 70 and 75. It has already been indicated that some of the best and most valuable work of those senior judges, led by the late and much lamented Lord Bingham of Cornhill, was done between the ages of 70 and 75. That work would be lost.
Nor do I accept that there is any problem about new talent coming through because there are many vacancies for positions in the Supreme Court. However, the central point is that we are losing the best of our judges at too early an age. I hope that the Minister and the Lord Chancellor will reflect on this matter over the summer, but in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Pannick
“In section 64(1) (encouragement of diversity) after “under this Part,” insert “and the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice in performing their functions,”.”
Lord Pannick
My Lords, Amendment 121 is another amendment arising out of the report of the Constitution Committee. It has been tabled in my name and those of my noble friend Lady Prashar, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. As your Lordships know from our debates on Monday, under Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, the Judicial Appointments Commission has a duty to,
“have regard to the need to encourage diversity in the range of persons available for selection for appointments”
to the Bench. As those debates indicated, this is an important provision because it rightly recognises that the high reputation that our judiciary deservedly enjoys may be damaged if we do not do something about the paucity of women and members of the ethnic minorities being appointed to judicial office. The task, as Section 64 recognises, is to identify ways of bringing to the fore the many highly skilled women and members of the ethnic minorities in the legal profession so that they can be considered for appointment on their merits. The point of this amendment is that that vital task should not just be imposed on and performed by the Judicial Appointments Commission.
As your Lordships’ Constitution Committee explained in its report, the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor have leadership roles, the former as the head of the judiciary and the latter as the Minister responsible to Parliament for the appointments process. They should each have a statutory duty to promote diversity. This is no criticism of the real efforts made by the current Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice, both of whom take this responsibility seriously. However, they will not always be in post. We are legislating for the future, so it is vital that the legislation should identify the importance of promoting diversity and that all those in leadership roles should have a statutory duty in this respect.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, have tabled Amendment 121AA. The noble and learned Lord will speak to his amendment, but as I understand it, the amendment has a similar purpose and effect. It is more detailed, and of course I will give it my support.
Amendment 121A, tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Prashar, is simply a probing amendment. It arises out of a concern that on the proper interpretation of Sections 63 and 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act covering appointment on merit and “Encouragement of diversity”, those provisions might apply to the appointment of all other judges, but not to judges of the Supreme Court. The drafting concern is simply that Part 3 of the 2005 Act deals separately with the Supreme Court while Sections 63 and 64 are in Part 4. I would ask someone to give some thought to whether there is any substance in my concern. There may not be and this is only a probing amendment. I am not asking the Minister to deal with this today, so perhaps he may prefer to write to me. I beg to move.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, I support the amendment and that tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, because this duty should be extended to the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice. I will say at the outset that I strongly refute the comments I have heard elsewhere that this will be perceived as gesture politics. I do not think that it will be, because it is a joint endeavour. Promoting diversity is a matter for the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice as well as the JAC. They have a part to play and they need to take meaningful action, so this duty should be extended to both of them.
What has been the result of this disparity? My experience as the chairman of the JAC was that one heard a lot of warm words, but they were not often followed by purposeful action. Moreover, all the criticism about slow progress was directed at the JAC, which became a convenient fig leaf for senior politicians and interest groups. Too much attention was paid to the selection process. There was an almost forensic examination of each stage of the process, whereas the barriers which were outwith the responsibility of the JAC received very little attention. That left the JAC exposed and some of the structural obstructions were not dealt with as speedily as they should have been. There were endless debates about the JAC’s processes and a disproportionate amount of time was spent on making minor changes to the selection process, which in the long run may not have had a major impact. However, they detracted attention from the other substantial changes for which, as I keep saying, the responsibility lies elsewhere.
If the JAC drew attention to the changes that were needed in order to widen the pool and improve diversity, in my view they were not often given the consideration they deserved. If there was a duty on the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, they would have been much more focused on them. Perhaps I may give two examples. There is the issue of non-statutory eligibility criteria in vacancy requests. An analysis made by the JAC as early as 2008—I hasten to add that this was done after the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, had left—found that a key factor in limiting the ability of the JAC to make a significant contribution towards improving diversity was the usual requirement for the Lord Chancellor to stipulate in vacancy requests to the JAC that candidates for salaried judicial posts should have had previous fee-paid experience. This was a real barrier to a large number of potential candidates, such as members of the employed Bar and, of course, solicitors. The JAC argued for this factor to be made “desirable” rather than “normally required”. However, there was a reluctance to change. These concerns were formally raised by the JAC in response to the consultation on the Green Paper The Governance of Britain, in 2008, after two years’ experience of working with these requirements, by which time the commission was able to analyse their impact. I give that as an example of something that obstructed progress towards diversity.
Let me give another example. In 2008 an agreement was reached that every post in the circuit Bench selection exercise which the JAC was due to run should be open to part-time working, but potential candidates said that while the commitment was welcome in principle, it was not sufficient to encourage them to apply without an indication of an acceptable part-time working pattern. That is quite important. After considerable discussion, it was agreed that each circuit would make two posts available for part-time working. It took an enormous amount of time to arrive at this arrangement. These were seen as concessions to the JAC, and not a joint effort to promote diversity. The JAC always felt that it was a tiresome body which was constantly asking for concessions. It should have been a joint endeavour. If everyone had been involved and had had the same responsibilities, they would have given closer consideration to the JAC.
Other changes that the JAC proposed were rejected on the grounds of so-called business needs. Business needs always trumped diversity considerations, and the lack of purposeful engagement was frustrating. It was compounded by the fact that all the criticism about the slow process, both by the interest groups and the politicians alike, was directed at the JAC. I could go on because I feel very strongly about the amendment, and totally reject any assertion that this is gesture politics. I very much hope that the Government will consider the amendment.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I would like to continue the effort that I have tried to make over past days to ensure that these decisions are not made merely by the legal world itself. I find this debate very peculiar indeed. I cannot think of a business which is worth its salt that does not insist that the chief executive has a responsibility for these matters. I sit as chairman of a number of companies, and in every case I have a personal responsibility for health and safety. I think it is important and I think that I have to take that responsibility. The direct responsibility is for the chief executive.
I know that it hurts many of a traditional kind in the legal profession for me to make comparisons between the Lord Chief Justice or the Lord Chancellor and such mundane people as chairmen and managing directors. However, it seems to me not an unreasonable parallel, and therefore I find this whole debate—as I found a debate in an earlier Session—to be really peculiar indeed. It should be the other way round: one should start off by saying that there are responsibilities of this kind lying on the shoulders of those who direct the whole shebang. One should not go half way down it—I am being rude now—and say, “It does not arrive up here, it comes down somewhere here”. One can repeat it, of course. It is perfectly reasonable to say, “It is also to be done here”, particularly if one has some suspicion that it is not being done lower down quite as well as one would like. However, one really cannot in any reasonable way exclude those who set the tone from issues which are the tone.
I very much accept the noble Baroness’s comment about this not being gesture politics. It is not gesture politics, because we are saying that we need to get rid of the fundamental view that merit is an easily definable thing and that it is terribly easy to say that somebody has got half a point better than somebody else. That is not what happens in business. We all know that when one looks at a number of people, one sees that they have differing contributions to make. One can say, “Yes, I have two people here who, on balance, both have the same contribution to make, as people”. The next question is: what are they making a contribution to? One says, “Let me make an assessment of what they are contributing to”. If, in most cases, they are making a contribution to what I would call a community, a panel or a group, then I might say that they are equal, but that this particular person makes less of a contribution to the whole than the other person, who would do more for the whole. That is the argument behind these elements of the Bill.
This is not a matter of tokenism, but a matter of reality, and it should be seen as such. If it is a matter of reality, it cannot be restricted to people lower down the pecking order. It must start with people at the top. I therefore beg the Government not to come back with the usual civil servant explanation to the effect that, “These people do this anyway, they are of a very high standing. We could not imagine them thinking in any other manner and, my goodness, why could you?”. I would reply that the present Lord Chancellor is an old friend of mine and a man of impeccable standards in this way. However, he still ought to be under the law; it still ought to be part of the way we present it.
It is really important simply to say that this is not a minor matter to be applied to people lower down, but a central matter to be applied from the top, because it is too important to be particularised. The only way not to particularise it is by saying that the chaps or girls in charge must take this responsibility. I very much hope that on this occasion the Government will see that this is a very reasonable amendment, that it could be taken without any difficulty at all, and that it could in fact be seen to be valuable step.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, just for the sake of the record and having put my name on this amendment, I make it clear that I support it for the reasons so admirably given by those who have spoken, including the noble Lord, Lord Deben. If I may say so, he showed remarkable acuity as somebody who is not a lawyer in contributing to this debate.
Baroness Neuberger
My Lords, perhaps I may add to the debate as another non-lawyer. Indeed, I totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and I very much hope that the Government will take this on board. I know that the Minister has himself been involved in the judicial diversity task force, of which the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor are in fact members. One of the criticisms that the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity has made since it reported two years ago is that progress by that task force has in fact been remarkably slow. Although it has met, not a great deal has happened. I know that the Minister feels much the same. It therefore seems to me all the more important that there be a statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, as well as on the Judicial Appointments Commission, to promote diversity. I really hope that the Government will take that on board.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
As a former judge I very strongly support the amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I would particularly like to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, with which I entirely agree. It is a very good thing when we get some non-lawyers reminding us, but he can be assured that former senior judges support him on this.
Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I rise really for the sake of the record and because my name is on this amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said in introducing the amendment, this was one of the very strong recommendations that the Constitution Committee made in its report on judicial appointments. The Minister has referred to his kindness in coming once again to speak to the Constitution Committee between Second Reading and Committee. He gave a very strong indication —and I do not think I say anything inappropriate—that he was favourably disposed to matters which we suggested counted as leadership matters in the question of diversity. He will remember the remarks he made on Monday when we spoke again about gesture politics in relation to another amendment, where he said that this was not about gesture politics, but about leadership and political leadership. I hope he will be consistent in his reply on this amendment.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, in 1997 I had the privilege of becoming the Solicitor-General. The first speech I made outside Parliament was in Nottingham, and the person who preceded me on that occasion was Mr John Selwyn Gummer, now Lord Deben. He said in his speech, “We are so lucky to have Charlie Falconer here. He is going to make a speech, it’ll have been written by his officials. It’ll be inspirational, but not so inspirational that you would want either legislative change or any additional expenditure of money”. It was exactly the same point as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made just now: there is an important point in these amendments, and there needs to be an active and continuing role for the head of the government-end of the story, the Lord Chancellor, and the head of the judicial-end, the Lord Chief Justice, as well as the head of the appointments commission, in looking at the detail of issues and actually taking active steps to ensure the ability to promote diversity.
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, for giving practical examples of what the Lord Chancellor can do. The Lord Chief Justice is able, for example, to make arrangements for working conditions which will promote diversity. The Judicial Appointments Commission will be actively seeking to promote diversity, all the more so now that the tie-break provision is likely to be in the Bill. The effect of our proposals is that everybody is in it together in promoting diversity. I very much adopt the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Deben: it is a basic requirement for the head of an organisation that is appointing people, whether they be judges or any other group. I hope that the Minister will feel able to embrace the basis of those proposals.
Lord McNally
My Lords, Amendment 121, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, would extend the duty in Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. The duty requires the Judicial Appointments Commission to have regard to the need to encourage diversity in the range of persons available for selection for appointments. The amendment would extend this duty so that it applied also to the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice.
Similarly, Amendment 121AA, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, introduces a new duty on the commission, the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor, albeit in slightly different terms. Rather than a duty to encourage diversity in the range of persons available for appointment, the amendment sets out a duty to promote diversity in the judiciary. In addition, it sets out a requirement for an annual report on performance of the duty.
The Government have given a firm commitment to improve diversity within the judiciary. We consider that a diverse judiciary, reflecting modern society, will enhance confidence in the judicial system. However, we do not consider that the extension of the duty to promote diversity in Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act, or the new duty suggested by Amendment 121AA, would make any difference in practice.
I understood what the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, meant when she said that these matters should not be turned into gesture politics. Since becoming a Minister, I have made it a personal commitment to attend every meeting of the judicial diversity task force in the hope that my presence will put a little speed into the process that we are trying to carry through.
The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, when exercising their public functions—other than those relating to judicial decision-making in the case of the Lord Chief Justice—are already subject to the public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010. This means that when either is exercising public functions in relation to the judiciary, the public sector equality duty applies.
I followed the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and for a time thought that he was on my side in arguing that, where responsibilities already exist, it is not necessary to rewrite them. The duty of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice is set out in Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010 and provides that a person exercising functions of a public nature must have due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by the Act; advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not; and foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not.
It is true that the Equality Act duties are not in the same terms as the duty in Section 64 of the 2005 Act or the proposed new duty in Amendment 121AA. Parts of Section 149 of the 2010 Act refer to persons with protected characteristics. This does not have any bearing on what steps, for example, we should take to encourage more solicitors to apply for judicial office. However, it is also clear that this duty contains the key elements of advancing equality of opportunity that we are normally concerned with when discussing diversity; that is, issues of gender, race, disability and sexuality.
The duty of course applies to the Lord Chancellor not just in relation to judicial diversity but in any functions of a public nature that he exercises. We consider this general duty to be a better approach than attempting to multiply separate legislative duties on the Lord Chancellor in different areas. This debate has already given an indication of that with the various duties proposed by different amendments.
We are often told by this House that we overlegislate, but there is also a tendency to want to put every specific duty in every Bill. We endorse the Constitution Committee’s comments on the importance of leadership and understand the reasoning behind the amendments, but we believe that the existing duties in the Equality Act 2010 are sufficient to keep us up to the mark in this context. Extending the existing duties to include both the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice would add nothing of practical value in increasing the diversity of the judiciary. Nor would it add anything to a commitment clearly made and embedded in the Bill.
Lord Deben
If it is necessary to state these things in particular for some parts of the system and it is not thought to be otiose, why is it not necessary to do it at the top of the system and thought to be otiose in those circumstances? Either you leave it entirely and rely on the general demand or you apply it to both cases.
Lord McNally
I will ponder on that, but I also ask the Committee to ponder on the Pannick amendment. The noble Lord’s proposal to write specific responsibilities into the Bill makes a regular appearance when we are legislating—I think that it is the second time that he has done it anyway and that makes it regular. The argument is usually the same; it is a please-stop-beating-your-wife amendment. These duties are embedded in the Bill and in the roles of both the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
The Minister is making some serious points. I am surprised by the proposition that the Equality Act would already require the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Chief Justice, for example, to promote among young people and black and minority-ethnic groups a greater willingness to apply to be lawyers, because that is partly what trying to increase the pool involves. Is the Minister really saying that that obligation, to get more people to apply at a much younger age to learn to be lawyers, is already covered by the Equality Act?
Lord McNally
The Equality Act invites the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice to apply the principles of the Equality Act to the job that they are doing, which is the point that I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, was making: that if one is doing a job that is covered by the Equality Act, one should be carrying out the responsibilities in which those duties are embedded. I think that is true.
Amendment 121A also relates to the duty in Section 64 and to Supreme Court appointments. It would ensure that the Section 64 duty to encourage diversity in the range of persons available for selection applied to those appointments. The amendment would also provide that Section 63 of the Constitutional Reform Act should apply to Supreme Court appointments. This would have the effect that those appointments would be solely on merit, that the person should not be selected unless he or she is of good character and that where two persons are of equal merit, one can be selected over the other for the purpose of increasing diversity.
Before turning to the detail of the amendment, I should first say that diversity is, of course, important at all levels of the judiciary, up to and including the Supreme Court. In fact, it is particularly important at the higher levels, as female judges or judges from an ethnic minority can act as powerful role models for those at a more junior level in the judiciary. Indeed, due to their higher public profile, they may also act as a role model for younger people considering a legal or judicial career and may be a powerful symbol to the public at large with regard to the perception of the judiciary reflecting our society. We are supporting diversity at this level in the measures that we are taking in the Bill to enable flexible working arrangements at the highest level, including the Supreme Court.
Turning now to the detail of the amendment, and starting with the application of Section 63, the objective here is to apply the tipping-point provision in these cases. Section 159 of the Equality Act 2010 contains a provision to allow a person to be preferred to another on the basis of a protected characteristic, such as gender or race, when they are equally qualified to be appointed. In relation to judicial appointments in England and Wales, our view is that it is not clear that the tipping-point provision in the Equality Act can apply, because Section 63(2) specifies that selection must be solely on merit. This use of “solely” may be seen as precluding the use of the Equality Act test. That is why the Bill brings forward the new tipping-point provision in Section 63(4) so that it can apply to judicial appointments, selection for which is within the remit of the Judicial Appointments Commission, notwithstanding the use of “solely”.
In relation to appointments to the UK Supreme Court, however, there is no provision that appointment must be “solely” on merit. Section 27(5) of the Constitutional Reform Act specifies that appointment must be on merit. However, other considerations apply, in particular Section 25(8), which specifies that in making a selection the selection panel must ensure that the candidate has knowledge and experience of practice in the law of each part of the United Kingdom. As there is no reference to “solely”, we consider that there is no bar to the Equality Act tipping point applying to Supreme Court appointments without the need for further legislative change.
In relation to the application of Section 64 to the UK Supreme Court, I have already set out the commitment to encouraging diversity in the Supreme Court, but for the reason that I have already outlined in relation to Amendment 74, I do not consider that a statutory duty would add anything to this. In addition, in this case any statutory duty would also need to reflect the UK nature of the Supreme Court, so the current amendment, by placing this duty on the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales and the Judicial Appointments Commission, would not be appropriate.
I understand where the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and other noble Lords are coming from. We have a summer to consider these things, but I also hope that noble Lords who have been involved in legislation will know that these declaratory commitments that overlay existing commitments are not always as helpful as has been suggested. I hope to assuage the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, by saying that we will look at the case that has been made this evening. As I say, at the moment we are not minded to accept the amendments, but with the promise that this debate will be among my summer reading I invite the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, that is a very disappointing response. Promoting diversity is one of the greatest challenges facing the legal system and it is quite unacceptable that when a statutory duty to promote diversity is already imposed upon the Judicial Appointments Commission, that same duty should not be imposed, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, puts it, on those who have leadership roles in the legal profession. I am not persuaded at all that there are other statutory duties under the Equality Act, which do not seem to me to cover the same ground. Indeed, if they did it is incomprehensible why there is a specific statutory duty on the JAC under Section 64.
Lord McNally
I hear the disappointment in the noble Lord’s voice. I would hate this debate to end with any idea that I personally, and the Government, am not committed absolutely to furthering diversity in the legal profession and the judiciary. I have said that I will take the debate away—I may even take it to the individual noble Lords concerned—and consider what we do when we come back.
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to the Minister. I was about to say that I do not doubt for a moment the Minister’s personal commitment to diversity. I have heard him speak about it on a number of occasions, and he feels as passionate about it as others. The question is whether the Government’s position can move. I hope, for all the reasons that have been expressed in this debate around the House, that the Lord Chancellor and the Minister will look at this again over the summer and that progress can be made. I have no doubt that if there is no progress, no movement from the Government, the House will return to the matter on Report, but for now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
“Judicial appointments13A After section 65 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 insert—
“65A Additional guidance
The Lord Chancellor, after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice, the Treasury Solicitor and the chairman of the Judicial Appointments Commission, shall issue guidance as to the circumstances in which those employed by the Government Legal Service, the Crown Prosecution Service or any other government legal office may apply for any of the judicial office or tribunal posts, which are in the remit of the Judicial Appointments Commission.””
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, this amendment seeks to probe the Government’s attitude to the appointment of judges from the Government Legal Service, the Crown Prosecution Service and any other prosecution body in effect employed by the Government. We suggest in the amendment that the Lord Chancellor issue guidance as to the circumstances in which members of any government legal office may apply for either a judicial office or a tribunal post; those judicial offices and tribunal posts being ones that are covered by, or within the remit of, the Judicial Appointments Commission.
We have in mind two particular thoughts. First, members of the Crown Prosecution Service are limited from applying for judicial office because they cannot sit as recorders because they deal with crime—they cannot sit as recorders anywhere, as we understand it. Are we being deprived, as a result of that perhaps unnecessary limitation? Since members of the Bar and solicitors who practise in the criminal area are well able to sit as recorders, why should the same situation not apply to those employed by the Crown Prosecution Service?
Secondly, I cannot find what, if any, the limitations are that apply to people in the Government Legal Service applying either for part-time or full-time office as a judge. People in the Government Legal Service are a very diverse—in the sense that we have used that word in this debate—group of people of very great talent who make up a pool from whom very good judges could be selected. I would be grateful if the Minister would indicate the Government’s attitude towards appointments to the judiciary from prosecution services and the Government Legal Service and whether they intend to issue new guidance to make the position clear.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. If we are serious about promoting diversity on the Bench, this is an area where there is real potential to make substantial progress. That is because there is a pool of highly talented female lawyers and ethnic minority lawyers in government legal service. The Constitution Committee gave the figures at paragraph 126. The figures are striking. In the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, more than 50% of senior civil servants are women and 15% of those at senior Civil Service pay band 1 are from ethnic minorities. In the CPS, women form 75.9% of Crown prosecutors and 63.9% of senior Crown prosecutors. Ethnic minority lawyers form 21.7% of Crown prosecutors and 18.3% of senior Crown prosecutors.
No doubt there are social and economic reasons why so many talented female lawyers and ethnic minority lawyers work not at the independent Bar, although many of them do, but in government legal service. I very much hope that the Government will accept the amendment so that consideration can be given as to how the legal system takes advantage of that pool of talent and ensures that the regrettable statistics of the limited number of women and ethnic minority lawyers on the Bench can be transformed.
Baroness Prashar
I, too, support the amendment. The JAC wrote to the then Lord Chancellor about this in 2008. If we are committed to promoting diversity, it is vital that some movement takes place. There has been no progress on this over the past few years. If the responsibility was taken seriously by the Lord Chancellor, there would have been some movement.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. There is an overlooked pool of potential future judges—or of what used to be called chairmen of tribunals, who are now judges. It is time that that group in government service of one form or another was seen as a potential. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about the numbers of both women and ethnic minorities is significant. I support the amendment.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am very grateful for the amendment, because it allows me to clarify an important area: those who work in government legal services, the Crown Prosecution Service and other government legal offices. The intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is extremely helpful, because it puts on record what a rich seam there is to be mined in those public appointments, and counterpoints the point that I have made several times from this Dispatch Box: that the public service has managed to make far more progress in promoting diversity over the past decades than has the private. We may learn lessons from that.
The Government are keen that members of the employed legal professions should take up judicial roles for which they are eligible, as like noble Lords, we are of the view that this could be a useful route to increasing diversity as well as ensuring that the Government can attract the best lawyers.
However, it has been the policy of successive Lord Chancellors that Crown Prosecution Service and other government lawyers when holding judicial office do not sit on cases involving their department. For CPS lawyers, this means that they cannot sit as recorders in the criminal courts, as the overwhelming majority of cases are prosecuted by the CPS.
Under the previous Administration, in 2003 the restrictions on applications by government lawyers were relaxed partially, and CPS lawyers became eligible for appointment as deputy district judges in magistrates’ courts. However, this was still on the basis that they did not sit on CPS-prosecuted cases, and therefore few roles are available.
The policy is based on the need to comply with Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which provides that litigants are entitled to be heard in front of an independent and impartial tribunal. Given those constraints, we need to think more creatively around the concept of a judicial career and how experience in one area can support subsequent appointment to judicial office in another area.
Opportunities are available for government lawyers to apply for judicial office. The published Judicial Appointments Commission programme for 2012-13 includes more than 300 vacancies for fee-paid office, which would be open to government lawyers to apply for. It is therefore important to communicate those opportunities available to government lawyers and to encourage them to take up judicial roles for which they are eligible—not least as this could be another useful route to increase diversity in the judiciary.
I am personally committed to playing a part in raising awareness of these opportunities. I recently met the Treasury Solicitor to discuss the best way to communicate them. I am also happy to consider any suggestions for changes to the current restrictions that apply to government lawyers to see whether we can go any further than the current practice—without, of course, infringing the rights to an independent and fair trial. When I met the Treasury Solicitor, I said that I was willing to write articles, go to seminars, or whatever, to raise the profile and awareness of those opportunities. As this is a probing amendment, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will believe that we are responding in this area and withdraw it.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
I will certainly carefully consider what the Minister said. At the moment, he has given no reason why not to publish guidance that Parliament can consider. I invite him to consider whether guidance could be published regularly so that the issue is looked at with much more of a searchlight than at the moment. I will consider what the Minister said, in exchange for him agreeing—he is nodding—to consider what I said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, this is a short point about the Judicial Appointments Commission. Schedule 12 allows for equality between judicial members of the Judicial Appointments Commission and everyone else. I want to change that to make it clear that the judicial members will always be in the minority. As noble Lords will know, no one holds the judges in more admiration than me. One thing that is clear in the current process is that the judges’ views on appointing judges are very well expressed. Part of the reason for having the Judicial Appointments Commission was to bring in other people to the appointments process. I would like there to be judges on the Judicial Appointments Commission, but I would not want them to be, as it were, a blocking equality. I would be perfectly happy if they were in the most substantial minority. That is what I wish to reflect in the amendment.
Lord McNally
My Lords, if I could short-circuit debate on this, this is a very interesting proposal. I would like to take it away, consider it and bring it back on Report.
Lord McNally
“19 (1) Paragraph 11 (vice-chairman) is amended as follows.
(2) In sub-paragraph (1) (most senior judicial member is vice-chairman) for “Commissioner who is the most senior of the persons appointed as judicial members” substitute “most senior of the holders of judicial office who are Commissioners”.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2) (meaning of seniority for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)) for the words after “sub-paragraph (1)” substitute “seniority is to be determined in accordance with regulations made by the Lord Chancellor with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice.”
(4) In sub-paragraph (3) (exercise by vice-chairman of functions of chairman) for the words from “other” to the end substitute “other than—
(a) any functions as a member of a commission convened under section 26(5) or (5A) or of a panel appointed under section 70(1), 75B(1) or 79(1) (including functions of chairing such a commission or panel), and(b) any functions specified in regulations made by the Lord Chancellor with the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice.””
Lord McNally
“Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under section 23 of that Act
Deputy Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under that section
(3A) In Table 1 of Part 1 omit the entries for the following former offices—
Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under subsection (2) of section 10A of the Justices of the Peace Act 1997
Deputy Senior District Judge (Chief Magistrate) designated under that subsection”
Lord McNally
“(b) in paragraph (c) for “(3)(c)” substitute “(3)(d)”.”
“(6) In Table 1 of Part 2 omit the entry for the following former office—
Justice of the Peace appointed under section 5 of the Justices of the Peace Act 1997”
Lord McNally
“(2A) In paragraph 3(1) (removal from office) before the “or” at the end of paragraph (b) insert—
“(ba) a person who is a deputy judge of the Upper Tribunal (whether by appointment under paragraph 7(1) or as a result of provision under section 31(2)),”.”
Lord McNally
Lord McNally
Arrangement of Business
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Northover
My Lords, because the Question for Short Debate of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, will now be taken as last business the time limit for the debate can become 90 minutes rather than 60 minutes. Speeches can therefore be limited to nine minutes except for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and the Minister’s speech, which will remain limited to 10 and 12 minutes respectively.
Regeneration
Lord Mawson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans for a co-ordinated approach towards regeneration, in particular in the new metropolitan districts emerging in north-west England and east London and, if so, what they are.
Lord Mawson
My Lords, I am conscious that a number of people who will be speaking in this debate have not yet arrived because there has been a change of time. I hope that they will arrive during the speech that I am about to make so that we can proceed as on the Order Paper.
When I first arrived in east London 30 years ago the Isle of Dogs was a waste land. At that time the financial centre of Canary Wharf did not exist. The culture of the public and voluntary sectors was anti-business. A dependency culture was rife and the councils running the surrounding boroughs of Newham, Tower Hamlets and Hackney were, I think it is fair to say, basket cases. Over the past 30 years, major changes have taken place and east London has been transformed. Because of the focused leadership of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and others taking part in this debate, a phoenix is now rising from the ashes and east London is once again becoming a global destination and a centre of enterprise, innovation, finance and business. It is increasingly being recognised as a powerful engine of the British economy as it had been, before the demise of the docks, for several hundred years previously.
It was a privilege to take the Commercial Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, by boat last week down some of the 6.5 miles of waterways across the Lower Lea Valley. My colleagues and I showed them all that has been achieved in a relatively short period of time and the potential that still exists if we continue to focus our attention and commitment. This trip is one of a number of water tours that I have been hosting over the past few years as chairman of the all-party group exploring regeneration, sport and culture, showing Members of your Lordships’ House and the other place the scale of development and investment opportunity in east London. Many of your Lordships who have made the journey east by boat with me have been surprised to see the rate of development, the scale of land and the potential for further investment in east London.
While chairing the APPG I was fortunate to make a voyage of discovery myself when the group’s secretary, the right honourable Hazel Blears MP, invited me to spend a day in Media City, Salford. What I saw there mirrored the developments in east London. I was shown pictures of former derelict docks and waterways that since the 1960s had been deserted. I learnt about a shared industrial history built around waterways. I also saw a modern experience of enterprise and regeneration in the midst of our poorest communities. I will let others who know far more about the north-west talk about what is happening 200 miles north. Suffice to say that these two areas of significant economic, cultural and social growth provide this country with important financial and business opportunities in a time when growth is ignored at great peril.
The purpose in raising this debate today is to make sure that these two important areas of growth are placed firmly on the map of the UK. They present the nation with development nodes that are nationally and internationally significant, now and in the years ahead. They require a sustained, co-ordinated and thoughtful response from the Government if they are to fulfil their true potential.
With only a few weeks to go until the Olympics begin, I will now focus my remarks on east London. For those of us who live and work in east London we know that the Olympics are actually not the biggest show in town, but a fantastic catalyst helping us join the dots of development nodes down the Lower Lea Valley. These are well advanced in Greenwich and the O2 in the south, at the expanding City Airport and the growing international conference centre at Excel—of which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord King, will say more—in the global business district at Canary Wharf, in Canning Town with £3.7 billion of investment, and further north in Poplar with a £1 billion housing and regeneration scheme with which I and my colleagues are involved. Here I must declare an interest.
At the Westfield shopping centre in Stratford across the River Lea we witnessed 1 million shoppers in the first week of opening. Stratford now has a new international station with a Eurostar platform. The Tech City concept at Old Street enhances east London as a rapidly developing science and technology hub. Sitting in the middle of all this activity is the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park that will hold five new villages and a commercial district. Again, I must declare an interest as a director of what is now called the London Legacy Development Corporation. This is a new city, a metropolitan district arising in the east of London that has profound implications for the capital. These development nodes are connected by the 6.5 miles of waterways. It was the late Reg Ward, the life force behind the Canary Wharf development, who many years ago described the Lower Lea Valley as a water city. If you fly into City Airport and look down you will see exactly what he meant.
As we prepare for the Olympic Games in east London we are 25 years into what is a 50-year regeneration journey. The opportunity to present to the world the investment opportunity is great, but the task is not complete. Continued focus and leadership in both central and London government beyond the Olympics are crucial if we are to ensure that the momentum created by the Games is not dissipated afterwards.
Underlying the regeneration and investment priorities in east London is the ambitious overarching objective of convergence, or narrowing the gap. The agenda aims to tackle inequalities by closing the socio-economic gap between east London and the rest of the capital within 20 years. This is an aspiration that unites all six Olympic host boroughs and has support from the Mayor of London and national government. In Newham, along with this desire for convergence with the rest of London, goes the desire to be financially sustainable and become a net contributor to the UK economy. Ideas about convergence alone will not bring investment. The area needs a unique London identity like Wembley, Kew or Westminster if we are to attract international investors. Hence the “water city” vision for what are the historic docklands.
The 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games have helped to kick-start this sustainable objective. For example, Westfield shopping centre estimates that the Games brought forward its investment in Stratford City around five to seven years earlier than would otherwise have occurred. This added between £1.1 billion and £2.2 billion to the London economy. Oxford Economics found that with a skills mix matching the London average, growth in east London could generate an additional GDP of £7.3 billion a year by 2030 and improve the public finances by about £5 billion a year.
I would like to take this moment to refocus our attention on east London and alert the House to the bigger growth picture there that has significant implications nationally. The London Borough of Newham and University College London are currently exploring the establishment of a new campus for UCL. In terms of urban regeneration, the Olympic legacy and the future competitiveness of the UK, this development is of immense local, national and international importance. Of equal significance is the Royal Docks Enterprise Zone, for which the Mayor of London, the London Enterprise Partnership and the London Borough of Newham have high ambitions. The Royal Docks will be a world-class business destination for the knowledge economy through the creation of a science and technology hub within a high quality environment in which to live and work. This hub would complement the Prime Minister’s “tech city” vision. If this is successful, Britain has the opportunity to be a world leader in science and technology.
What threatens this future vision of east London? We all know that world-class infrastructure is crucial to maximising UK growth potential yet, despite over £1 billion of public investment, Stratford International station currently has no international services. There is support from East Anglia, the Midlands and beyond for the station to play a role for both HS1 and HS2, to increase business between the UK and the Continent. Disappointingly, the Government have not as yet confirmed Stratford’s role in the UK’s high-speed rail network, and so risk the benefits that this could bring to the UK.
Another area of concern is insufficient capacity on existing river crossings to meet current demand. Without this issue being comprehensively addressed, the Olympic host boroughs warn that it will be a significant barrier to achieving convergence. The major missing element in the Mayor of London’s crossing package is the absence of a firm commitment to a fixed-link crossing at Gallions. The Silvertown tunnel could provide necessary resilience to the Blackwall Tunnel, but this will do little for the regeneration of key sites, such as in the eastern Royals, Beckton, Woolwich and Thamesmead. For this, the Silvertown tunnel needs to be complemented by a river crossing at Gallions, a catalyst for economic development.
The fundamental danger, of course, is that when the Games are over the uninitiated will feel that they have now done east London and it is time to move on, yet that is precisely the time when the opportunity is at its greatest. To ensure that the vision for a fully regenerated east London is realised, that our national focus is maintained and that the microdetails of infrastructure are addressed, my first question to the Minister is: who is the person in Government today with responsibility for driving these changes through to the end after the Olympics have finished? Who is going to work through until Sunday evening and get out of bed on Monday morning to develop this national regeneration project with international implications? My next question to the Minister is: how will the Government ensure a co-ordinated response from across government departments to the new opportunities that I have outlined, linking this with other emerging growth areas nationally? This matter is bigger than the interests served by London government alone.
It is my view that by fully regenerating areas of potential growth, like the Lower Lea Valley, we will be making a significant contribution towards our immediate and future national economy. I realise that some noble Lords may have heard me reference these issues at the Second Reading of the Financial Services Bill last week but I see no harm in reiterating the point. Now is the time to co-ordinate all our efforts and ensure that east London is fully regenerated. We need to end on a full stop, not a comma.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on securing this important debate and thank him for his references to my home area of Greater Manchester. I welcome the opportunity to contribute and do so not only as a trustee of the Lowry Theatre, for which I declare an interest, but from a longstanding involvement, as a former local authority leader and Member of Parliament, in the regeneration of the dockland area of the Manchester Ship Canal that is now Salford and Trafford Quays.
The story of the regeneration of this area could not been told without the vision, doggedness and commitment of many people, too numerous to name but to whom I pay tribute. It is a pleasure to see my honourable friend at the Bar today because she was certainly one of them. However, it is a story that has not yet ended. While the area has been transformed physically from derelict dockland to exciting and gleaming media city, there is much yet to do to realise the potential for local people in skills, jobs and opportunities, matching the outstanding physical regeneration with the social regeneration that will transform people’s lives. In this, the chief executive Julia Fawcett and her excellent team at the Lowry are leading the way.
The Lowry was in fact one of the first regeneration projects on Salford Quays and has undoubtedly been the seed around which one of the most vibrant cultural and media destinations in the world is now crystallising. The £160 million capital investment from lottery funds has not only produced this world-class arts facility but catalysed phenomenal further regeneration, predominantly from the private sector, to the tune of £650 million in the MediaCityUK development. With the Lowry at its heart, the media city is now also home to the Imperial War Museum North, BBC North, the University of Salford and over 60 diverse production, service and ancillary companies. With ITV Granada currently constructing its production facility on Trafford Wharf, this constitutes an altogether impressive and dynamic constellation of media and digital entrepreneurship. This is testimony to the development, not only on the quays but throughout the north-west, of expertise and innovation in the creative and digital industries which has the potential to rival the best in the world, provided that it is nurtured and supported. Of that, I will say more in a moment.
From the outset, the Lowry has had three equally important core objectives and is matching commitment to outstanding theatre and visual arts content to the commitment to using its assets to create opportunities for local people, especially young people, with a constant focus on reaching those groups who are more disadvantaged or who would not normally gravitate to an arts environment. This distinctly Lowry approach is one that I believe many organisations should emulate.
I shall give noble Lords some examples of what this means in practice. Walkabout is the Lowry’s flagship community engagement programme, which has so far engaged around 8,500 residents. Inspired to Aspire is an initiative that uses the inspirational environment and people of the Lowry and the wider quays to encourage and nurture aspiration with disengaged young people and provide formal and informal entry routes into employment. Working with a network of referral agencies, including schools and colleges, the Lowry provides significant numbers of young people who are NEET or at risk with opportunities in volunteering, short-term placements and, where possible, apprenticeships and full-time employment. The young carers project provides creative experience for young carers to promote positive changes in their health and well-being, as well as a platform to raise awareness about their roles and the issues that affect them.
A recent development in partnership with others is the successful bid for a university technical college at MediaCityUK. The UTC will focus on digital and creative industries and performing arts alongside entrepreneurship, and will contribute to the massive growth potential of these industries in our region. It will ensure that local young people can access the opportunities that this growing sector brings, linking new industrial demand to its local community. This is of crucial importance, as I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, in an area that is significantly challenged by deprivation, unemployment and social problems. All this activity is on a financial model that raises £7 through its own activities for every £1 of public subsidy. I hope to invite noble Lords to an event here later this year to hear more about the Lowry’s social regeneration work.
I want to mention another project, this time on the east of Manchester, which is similarly pioneering innovation in the creative and digital sectors and is equally committed to using its capacity and assets to develop the talents and opportunities for local people. The Sharp Project is home to over 70 digital entrepreneurs and production companies that make, manipulate or move around the world digital content. The £16.5 million development, partly funded by Manchester City Council and ably directed by Sue Woodward, is fantastic and I encourage Members to see it if they can. It is based in a 200,000 square foot warehouse and offers exciting, flexible and affordable space for offices, production and event space for companies, thereby helping to grow the creative digital sector in our region. Over the past year the Sharp Project has produced award-winning TV output and accommodated over 400 people in employment, either directly or as freelancers. Set up to run alongside the project is SharpFutures, an independent social enterprise supported by Manchester City Council to ensure there is a social return on investment, and SharpFutures exists to nurture and grow talent and capacity in the digital and creative sectors by opening up and building capacity, particularly in deprived communities.
I do not have time to do more than mention the cultural hub at the other end of the ship canal which is Liverpool, former capital of culture, but no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Storey, will do so. However, all of this together testifies to the critical mass of expertise in our region in this exciting new sector, and the tremendous potential for Greater Manchester and the north-west to become a global hub for creative and digital entrepreneurship. However, this has not happened by accident. Nor will this potential be fully realised without drive and support. Local partners, public and private, have already demonstrated their commitment and ability not only to achieve regeneration and new economic activity but to harness those benefits for local people. Others, including the Government, must now rise to the challenge.
Will the Minister address three issues? First, reflecting the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and particularly now that the regional development agencies have been abolished, where will the oversight, drive and momentum be coming from in Government to identify these opportunities for growth, and to remove the barriers to progress?
Secondly, the creative and digital industries depend crucially on connectivity. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, asked about High Speed 2, and I share his concern. Equally important is superfast broadband. What commitment do the Government have to enable these areas to have priority access to superfast broadband? Will the Government support Salford’s bid for the Urban Broadband Fund? Will it also support the Greater Manchester Combined Authority’s bid for ERDF in support of the Greater Manchester broadband plan?
Finally, I have stressed the leading examples of the Lowry and Sharp in contributing not only to the growth of this new economic sector, and thereby to the UK economy, but to narrowing the socio-economic gap in our region. Not all of our participants are as committed as this. For example, the record of the BBC in MediaCityUK so far is poor, with only 26 of the 680 new jobs created by the move north going to local people. This is not good enough. There is no reason why all organisations, especially those funded with public money, should not have the explicit objective of investing in the skill, development and training that will enable local people to compete successfully for new jobs. This needs a strong lead from government. I would be very grateful to hear from the Minister what commitment the Government have to promoting and monitoring this kind of social regeneration, which can transform people’s lives.
Lord King of Bridgwater
I join the noble Baroness in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for introducing this debate, and for the enthusiasm and energy with which he chairs the all-party group on this hugely important subject. As the noble Lord rightly said, I am going to concentrate on east London, where I am mainly involved, but I could not help reflecting while the noble Baroness was speaking that when he asked, “Who is the Minister who goes to bed on Sunday night and gets up early on Monday morning ready to concentrate?”, I used to be that Minister. One of my responsibilities was to decide what to do about Manchester Exchange railway station, which was crumbling away. The pillars were rusting, so were we going to put a lot of money in—£250,000—without having any idea of what we were going to do with the station? I know it is now a very successful exhibition and conference centre, and I am very pleased that the extravagant decision which I took then has worked out so well.
I also feel I know quite a bit about MediaCityUK, because I served on the Communications Committee of this House under the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, in which we reviewed the charter of the BBC. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester showed his total partiality at all times when interviewing BBC people to ensure that they were going to move to Manchester and Salford, where MediaCityUK now is. I feel as though I have been there before.
However, I want to speak about east London, because I have had a strange involvement with it. I worked with Michael Heseltine as a Minister when we first came into Government—he is now my noble friend Lord Heseltine, of course—and his energy and enthusiasm was considerable. The first thing we did when he became Secretary of State was to get in a helicopter and fly over the whole of that dockland area. There were 5,000 derelict acres within a mile and a half of some of the most expensive real estate in the world, which was the City of London. After our helicopter flight, we came down and got into a bus with some of the most militant left Labour leaders of the various boroughs that existed in that area who were absolutely determined that nothing interfered with their own sovereignty over those areas. From that came: the Local Government, Planning and Land Act; the creation of the London Docklands Development Corporation; the creation of two most remarkable chairmen and deputy chairmen in the shape of the late Sir Nigel Broackes and the late Lord Mellish, who many of your Lordships will remember as the deputy chairman. He took on the hard left at some pain to himself, and with real difficulty, because he saw the benefit it was going to bring, and the life that he could bring to an area that was so totally derelict at that time.
It did take considerable investment. Having set up the development corporation and given it the planning powers for the area of the Docklands that had previously derived from five different councils that could never agree on what should happen, one figure sticks in my mind. The investment required in one particular area meant we were spending £500,000 per acre—a lot of money on those days—to deal with the contaminated land problem, before you could even start thinking about any construction. Subsequently there was Canary Wharf and the various other wonderful developments that exist there. I remember also on the housing side that we lined up five different volume house builders and gave them each land to build 500 houses. I do not want to dwell on Labour but they were all Labour boroughs at that time, of a complexion that I hope the Labour Party has now well left behind in its present creation. They said to us, “People do not want to own their own houses. They like being council tenants and we look after them.” That, of course, was the source of the power of much of the leadership of those councils. When the opportunity arose to buy 2,500 houses for sale and with preference given to the people living in those London dockland boroughs, the queue down the road on show day was a mile long, formed of people who were determined to have the chance they had never had before of owning their own homes.
Subsequently, when I came out of government, because of my previous involvement in the Docklands area I was approached to look at the possibilities of 100 derelict acres on the Royal Victoria Dock. I did not really know the Royal Docks very well at that time. They were one of the wonders of the world in Victorian and later times with a 1,000-acre estate and 250 acres of enclosed water—the largest enclosed water space in the world—where 150,000 people worked in their time. This was hallowed land for all those people who had worked in the docks for generations in east London. It was also derelict. When I first went to the 100-acre site on the north of the Royal Victoria Dock, the only living things I saw were two foxes. Now, after much pain and struggle, if you go there now you will find a million square feet of exhibition space, a 5,000 seat convention centre, six hotels and three DLR stations. At this very minute, the Crossrail line is starting to be dug that will come right through and surface at the Royal Victoria site.
It is rather appropriate that we are having this debate. Tomorrow the Emirates Air Line, which is the cable car that runs from the O2 to the ExCel centre, will open. It owes a great deal to the enthusiasm of the mayor, who managed to persuade the Emirates airline that it was a wonderful thing to have its name on it and to put up the money to help to build it. That will be another asset to the site.
It is interesting to see the challenge. Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, having gradually got that critical mass together, east London is where it is all now happening. When we started out on this venture, and I talked about the possibility of an exhibition centre and we talked about the Royal Docks, there was a tremendous west London bias in this great city of ours and people said, “Nobody will ever go there”. A lot of people said, “Where is it?”. They thought that it was somewhere near Southend. There was quite extraordinary ignorance. Even now, you will find quite a lot of people in London who have never been to Canary Wharf, and hardly know that it is there. It is now the great growth area, as the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, said. That whole area, with the Olympics, other developments, London City Airport, the university and with Tech City, brings a critical mass together.
I was delighted to see, because I obviously have to declare an interest with my involvement in ExCel, that while when we started on the convention centre London was 19th in the world for its share of international convention business, in our third year we had already gone from 19th to ninth. We are now seventh in the world; that is competing with Atlanta, Munich, Barcelona, Paris and the major cities of the world. This is a great opportunity. It will grow because the other merits of London mean that it must be in the top three. Now that we have a major convention centre, I hope that we shall see not only business for the convention centre but the added value—the multiplier—and benefit that it brings in, perhaps by bringing in a medical convention with 20,000 or 30,000 consultants and their families.
The particular pleasure that we all have is that it is taking place in the most deprived London borough, Newham, with the co-operation of a very energetic Labour Mayor of Newham, Sir Robin Wales, who has done an outstanding job for his borough. Yet there is so much else to do. Standing on the balcony of ExCel, for the past 20 years I have looked out at the other side of the dock. There is a site with nearly 100 acres that have lain derelict. They were owned by the LDDC, then by English Partnerships, then by the LDA, then the GLA. This is a failure to get the drive together. Now we see the opportunities.
My concern, shared by practically every noble Lord in this House, is how we are going to earn our living in the world in the future. One of the things that we have to do where we see opportunities for growth is to make them work. It is not a question of which Minister will be responsible for this, because we have got a mayor. Where you have a mayor, you have an extra dimension. Cities which fail to choose to have a mayor are missing out in a big way because that is where the opportunities will come. I hope that we shall see the sort of leadership that the mayor has shown to be possible in east London reflected across the other cities of our country, which we know need that growth so badly at present.
Lord Storey
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for initiating this debate. We are talking about new metropolitan districts. I come from a very old metropolitan district or, as we now call it, the Liverpool City Region. Liverpool itself celebrated its 800th birthday in 2007. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, reminded us, the following year it became the European Capital of Culture.
Liverpool at one stage was regarded as the second city of the then British Empire. It lost its way very much in the 1970s and 1980s. The 1980s were a very difficult time for Liverpool. There were huge job losses: Tate and Lyle, Dunlop and Triumph Motors. Thousands of people were losing their jobs. That impacted, of course, on the social fabric of the city. It also impacted on the political fabric of the city.
Liverpool suffered other problems. There were the so-called Toxteth riots. There was the portrayal of Liverpudlians; they became the butt-end of humour and jokes. Liverpool went through a very difficult time. As the noble Lord, Lord King, reminds us, I remember Michael Heseltine coming to the city. He got a helicopter and flew over Merseyside to look at it. He got the civic leaders together. He got the business leaders together. I was a young councillor, the chair of education, at the time. You could actually see the way Michael Heseltine changed his views on these great northern cities.
I was elected leader of the city council in 1998. I was lucky in my first year to go to New York and Dublin, two cities which also turned themselves around. I remember talking to the civic leaders and asking, “How have you turned yourself around and regenerated your cities?”. The answer was the same in New York as it was in Dublin. It was one word: “confidence”. You have to create confidence in your city. Governments and councils do not create regeneration or jobs. They create the conditions for businesses to flourish, to create the wealth, to create the jobs. They said, “You will know that you have been successful when you can count the cranes on the skyline”. I became obsessed by this. I would drive into the city centre, counting the cranes to see whether we were changing the city around.
The next thing I realised was that you had to look at the things that were unique to that city and make it work. We worked closely with Manchester—I worked with Richard Leese—looking at the areas with which we could be compatible and the areas that were distinctive to our cities. We looked at Liverpool and thought, “Gosh, here is a city which at one stage was in the top four retail destinations in the UK”. It had slumped out to the bottom 20. Thanks to a £1 billion private investment from the Duke of Westminster, we created Liverpool ONE, which was at the time Europe’s largest retail and leisure development: 1 million square feet. We are now back in the top five retail destinations.
We looked at our universities and thought, “Gosh, these are top, world-class universities with real talent and expertise. How do we bring them into the regeneration of the city?”. We did that. We worked with them. For example, we worked with the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, a world leader, to link with the pharmacy industries in the city. Thanks to Bill Gates, who gave huge amounts of money to develop serums for third-world countries, we used their expertise. With the other two universities, we created a science park which has gone from strength to strength.
We then looked at other things that were special. Liverpool has a river. You did not see any cruise liners coming along the river. Yet the cruise liner industry was prospering throughout the UK. So we used European Objective 1 money to create—we have to be careful what we call this—a cruise liner facility. We could not call it a terminal, because it might upset Southampton. That worked. The present council is looking at a cruise liner terminal: a turnaround facility. To make that happen we have had to pay back to the Government £7.6 million. That £7.6 million was European Objective 1 and Northwest Regional Development Agency money, so I ask the Minister whether she will look at that money coming back to Liverpool for other regeneration projects, as that was what it was originally for.
We looked at music and the conference business. Liverpool has a culture of music. At one stage it was classed the “capital of pop”. Why the capital of pop? We had more number one chart-toppers than any other city in the world. I bet there has never been a quiz in the House of Lords. Do any noble Lords know what the first number one was? It was “(How Much Is) That Doggie in the Window?” by Lita Roza. Paul McCartney came to the city and we had to create an outside concert arena. We built a conference and arena centre and that has gone from strength to strength. So I think that regeneration is about creating the conditions for businesses to succeed; creating, if you like, as Michael Heseltine did in the 1980s, a vision and a plan of where the city should go.
I should also like to pay tribute, at the opposite end, to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. He established the first regeneration company in Liverpool, which brought together local authority and business. It was strange sitting next to Terry Leahy, for example, who was one of the directors of Liverpool Vision. Again, they put together a plan of how the city could create the conditions for regeneration.
There are lessons for the new metropolitan districts to learn. Those lessons are very simple indeed. It is not about Governments saying, “One size fits all”; it is not about Governments telling us what should be done. We have done that in the past, where Governments say, “This is what you must do: inner city partnerships or urban aid”. Cities are unique; they have unique conditions, unique problems and unique solutions. Nor is it about the sort of government which was the fad of the previous Government and which seems to be happening now, where you bid for everything, and it is a bit like a beauty parade. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, reminded us of this earlier. Now the beauty parade often involves celebrities, so that Mary Portas comes and looks at our high streets. It should not be like that; it should be about what can work for that city and those people.
The other thing I want to say is that it is not just about the physical environment of the city. It has to be about the people themselves. Cities have to “skill up” their young people. If one talks to any business, the message that comes out loud and clear is that young people need skills. I have been talking to two different businesses. Cammell Laird shipbuilders has suddenly blossomed again. It was a world-class shipbuilder, which collapsed and closed down. A group of senior staff started a small ship-repairing business, which has grown and grown and now has a turnover of £400 million. It is now looking to become even bigger than that. When one asks the company, “What is holding you back?” it says, “We need the skills. We have our own apprenticeship course. We take on 20 apprentices per year. It is a four-year course and we pay for it ourselves, But we still need more people with those skills”.
Last week in Manchester I talked to people in the textile industry. Manchester University has the only textile manufacturing degree course left in the country. Everybody who goes on that course can get a job. Yet the textile industry would like to expand that course and develop the industry. When one talks to companies they say, “We need the skills”.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, when he said in this Chamber that he was,
“very critical of the past 100 years of government responsibility for education. Our industry depends on world-class results if it is to create and sustain first-class jobs”.—[Official Report, 22/3/12; col. 1052.]
How right that is. Equally, however, Governments have been responsible for chopping and changing education. So—I am going to shut up.
The Lord Bishop of Birmingham
My Lords, I stand in place of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who is unavoidably detained and cannot attend your Lordships’ House tonight. I hope that I will be an adequate substitute, having been the bishop of Birkenhead, where I had an excellent view of Liverpool for six years of the first part of this century. I was also chair of the Wirrall local strategic partnership, which wrestled with some of these issues, and I now chair the Birmingham social cohesion process under a new government in Birmingham which is trying to look mayoral—and we will see how it goes.
I am delighted that the noble Lord has tabled this Motion, not least because he himself has pioneered models of regeneration that have transformed neighbourhoods into communities. We have heard a lot tonight about these large, multibillion investments, which as a former businessman I fully appreciate and think are absolutely vital. At the same time, however, our experience over the past few years in the north of single regeneration bids, which were largely business-led, and the new deals for communities, which were largely community-led, has been that both produce results. They both produce some of the things that we have been talking about in terms of skills and new investment. However, it is our conviction that they have to be held together—that the regeneration must be twin-engined, if you like, with leadership from both the business world and the community. We have touched on this in some of the speeches tonight. Of course business is vital to creating jobs and to sustaining the welfare of families and communities, but community also is vital—for unless local people are involved, there will be no ownership, no pride, no transformation and perhaps, echoing the noble Lord’s statement, not even any confidence.
I am delighted to hear that Cammell Laird is now back in business. This will be an enormous attraction to the local people living in the river streets of Birkenhead, who found it so difficult to move anywhere further afield when that shipyard closed years ago.
We have not yet mentioned—perhaps I dare to mention—local enterprise partnerships. I understand that in the Liverpool city region, the LEP is advancing rapidly, with strategies for low-carbon economy and sustainable action plans. This perhaps broadens the picture but also takes us into that sense of wider responsibility as we try to achieve growth today. The north-west is the most renewable energy-rich region in the country and is capitalising this asset. Of course we also have the knowledge economy—some of these things have already been referred to—tourism and the motor industry, all being promoted vigorously by the Liverpool city region LEP.
If we go further back—I think that these have already been mentioned—the regional development agency in the north-west recognised the importance of engaging the local community as well as business in the regeneration of the region. I hope that the Minister might comment on whether the engine of renewal that brings both community and business together might be reignited by the LEP. I give as examples investment in the Florence Institute for the regeneration of Toxteth; investment in Mersey Forest to transform blighted urban areas which might not quite benefit from even as wonderful an investment as Liverpool ONE through the Grosvenor Estate; and investment in Faiths4Change, which engages faith communities in transforming local environments. These and other such initiatives enable areas to be even more attractive, not just for local residents but for businesses.
There is an inextricable link between economic and community regeneration. I trust and expect that this will be reflected in the boards of our LEPs and their strategies for growth and regeneration.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I too would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, not least for adding the critical words “north-west” into his Question, which allows some of us to make a bigger debate than it might otherwise have been. I am grateful for that. I will declare a slightly extended interest—and I will explain why, because my interest leads me into what I am going to say. Many people have been bragging about what has been going on in their areas. I can brag for Pendle until the day I die. I am not going to do that; I am going to set out some of our difficulties at the moment. Nevertheless, I declare my interest as an elected member of Pendle council, which is a small district council in east Lancashire, so it is not a metropolitan area. It is an area of 19th century cotton towns; they are no longer cotton towns, there is very little left, but that is what the area is, surrounded by our wonderful Pennine countryside. Towns in the area, such as Accrington, Burnley, Nelson and Colne, have the problems of metropolitan councils and inner cities but the resources of small districts. That is a serious problem that areas like ours around England have.
Regeneration tends to be focused on the big cities and metropolitan areas. The concept of city regions was not invented by the coalition Government; it became the vogue quite a few years ago. But from our perspective, it is a concept which has flaws as a universal model. I am not in any way denigrating the vital role that big cities play throughout England, which is where we are talking about, or in Wales and Scotland. The major regional centres, after London and the south-east, have been the great success story of England in the past couple of decades. For all the problems that they still have, places such as Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds and Norwich have gained status and economic importance. For example, Leeds’ financial importance is far greater than it used to be. I am in no way saying that that is a bad thing. In particular, these cities are a counterbalance to the tendency otherwise of London and the south-east to suck in resources, growth and development. Again, I totally recognise all the problems that there are in the East End and other parts of London.
There are two problems with regarding the city region concept as applicable to everywhere else in the country. There are areas where it does not sensibly work. Areas need to be looked at in a different way. For example, you could say that Cornwall and Devon are perhaps part of the Plymouth city region. However, that is not a sensible way of looking at the economy, the communities and the way that the Cornubian peninsular works.
To regard a huge swathe of places around Greater London, the south-east and further on simply as part of the London city region, which they clearly are, is not enough. It is not enough to say to Hastings or Brighton that their problems can be solved and their needs tackled by considering them as part of the coastal area of the London city region. Their problems are much greater than that and are more complicated. Of course, if we are not careful, there is a problem in city regions that the big city centre can suck in all the growth and resources as well as a large proportion of the people. There is a natural tendency for that to happen.
In my view, one of the jobs of the Government is to act as a countervailing force against that. There are also areas which, with the best will in the world, do not fit into city regions. Which city region do West Cumbria, Whitehaven, Workington and Barrow belong in? City regions do not make sense when you are considering the future of those areas. East Lancashire—or Pennine Lancashire, if that is how you like to call where I live—is on the fringe of perhaps the Manchester city region or the Leeds and Bradford city region. But it does not make a great deal of sense to look at our future simply by considering our relationship to those big cities—welcome as it is to have the news from the Government that the Todmorden Curve will be built and Burnley can have a regular railway service into Manchester.
My noble friend Lord Storey used the words “government fads”. One of the problems is that Governments have fads. When there is a change of the Government, the old fads are thrown out. Housing market renewal brought huge resources. It was flawed but people were getting a grip on it and it was nothing like as bad as the press that it got. In my area, it brought in £10 million a year to each district local authority area, which certainly in Burnley and Pendle we were using in sensible ways. That suddenly stopped and it has caused chaos. There are huge problems of schemes being half finished and a need to look around for resources to finish them. It causes problems for people who were promised things but who now find that they will not happen.
That does not only happen when a new Government are elected; it also happens when the Secretary of State changes and so on. They bring in new fads. One of the latest fads, which my noble friend mentioned, is the Mary Portas scheme. The work that she has been doing is excellent and helpful, and it helps people to think. But the competition for pilots leaves a great deal to be desired. There were 371 bids and 12 pilots have been approved, one of which was in Nelson, Pendle. We are quite good at such things, and we are very pleased to have that money and to have those resources. But 371 places have put in the time, effort and cost of making the bids, but only 12 have been approved, with another 15 to come.
Empty housing is a huge problem in areas like ours. All the ways in which we were trying to deal with this under the previous Government have been largely pushed aside. We now have the empty homes fund—for which Pennine Lancashire and East Lancashire generally bid—and we have won some of that as well. In Pendle, it will result perhaps in £3 million or £4 million-worth of new investment in different ways, working in partnership with landlords and housing associations, to tackle the problems of empty housing in our area. A lot of it will be in the ward that I represent on the council, so I am not totally against this kind of thing.
The things for which you can bid for money and the ways in which you can get resources change with the Government and the Secretary of State. That is not an efficient way to do things. The old way is stopped, with all the inefficiencies that are involved in doing that, and then you have to start again with the new way. Bidding takes an enormous amount of resources. There are some pros, including getting people to think, and good ideas are spread around. Sometimes when schemes are worked out, people find that they can do them anyway. A large amount of waste is involved in these schemes.
We have to get back to an acceptance that regeneration is not just about cities and city regions. It is also about smaller places, such as the Barrows, the Workingtons, the Whitehavens, the Great Yarmouths, the Hastings, the Accringtons, the Burnleys and the Nelsons and Colnes of this world. I am a great believer that the purpose of government resources is to provide a basis for getting funding from the private sector and other areas, and for providing a way in which the local economy can work. In simply doing it all, the multiplier effect is huge. We have to get back to the principle that government resources are handed out and provided objectively on the basis of need and not on the basis of slightly bogus competitions according to the latest fads of Ministers.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, it has been fascinating to listen to the personal experiences of noble Lords who have been involved in the development and creations in their areas over recent years. Of course, I particularly want to congratulate my noble friend Lord Mawson on tabling the debate. It is important to hear how the Government see their plans for the future, especially as to how the legacy aspect of these operations is developing now that we are so close to the start of the 2012 Games. In this House, we are very lucky to have noble Lords who have been involved in competitive sport and now are very active in the entrepreneurial side of this whole area of development.
I will confine my comments to the east London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics site and its proposed legacy, although, of course, the major relocation of the BBC to the Salford area will have an effect on the reporting of the Olympics. In addition, the major reconstruction already achieved in that metropolitan district, which includes the University of Salford and other areas that have been mentioned, is already providing new jobs and attracting considerable business investment interest.
However, East London is the area that I know best. We have always had a London home south of the river and currently live just off the Old Kent Road, which is very close to the Peckham Settlement, which my old school supports and of which I have been president for nearly 40 years. The East End—particularly Poplar, which contains areas of considerable deprivation—is where I have made most of my more active volunteering efforts, especially governing and managing many schools in that area as well as doing juvenile court work.
Some 30 years ago I was invited to visit an exciting new project in Poplar, in an area where most of the inhabitants were recent immigrants. The East End of London has always seen a flow of immigrants in that particular place, but certainly in this area the inhabitants were pretty recent. It turned out to be a completely different concept, pioneered by a new vicar, who, on arrival, found that his church congregation consisted of two old ladies, with water dripping through the light bulb. Within a very short time he had turned the church into a very different, active community centre, albeit retaining a religious centre for worship purposes.
Somehow this vicar had raised money to build small, friendly houses with gardens to complement the area’s endless blocks of council flats. He improved considerably all the open spaces and, most importantly of all, raised money to build a medical centre, which meant that the local people, not the local authority, could choose the doctors and nurses who worked there. Workshops, too, were set up where skills were learnt and, indeed, passed on to immigrants, who had brought different skills into the country. Setting up new small and medium-sized businesses was encouraged. It was clearly an innovative and very successful regeneration model that has subsequently been followed in many other parts of the country. Unfortunately, I did not meet this remarkable vicar at that time, but it was no surprise when, in 2007, he joined us in your Lordships’ House as my noble friend Lord Mawson, of Bromley-by-Bow.
To return to the 2010 London site, some of your Lordships may have been on the exhilarating trip that we were offered by British Waterways some six months ago to go and inspect progress. We set off from Westminster Pier, bouncing along at high speed in three or four rubber boats. We reached the Isle of Dogs in record time and turned left into the canal network. The canals were far from clean; there was even a rumour that they should be covered up and hidden during the Olympic Games. True or false, the far more sensible, and clearly money-making, approach was under way: that they should be cleaned up and used for transport and organised tours. Certainly our tour showed the remarkable progress that had already been made, with many of the buildings to house competitors already up, as well as the main stadium and the Olympic swimming pool. In addition, the river banks and other open spaces, recently planted, were beginning to show the green grass coming through. I imagine that the massive amount of rain that we have had during our so-called summer has had a great effect on improving that still further.
By now the scene is very far advanced. That is why it is right to concentrate on the east London legacy prospects. It is sad, of course, that the recent financial horrors meant that practically no private investment was originally available for investment in that basic Olympic site. However, there is already increasing interest from overseas businesses wishing to be part of this considerable future growth potential, although, as we have heard, there is clearly a need for the Government to ensure that our own business entrepreneurs are equally aware and do not miss out on what are quite clear opportunities.
Canary Wharf already contains an example of a modern enterprise zone, and there are plans for building a new metropolitan district close by. When you think that the architect Piano has just completed the brilliantly inspired, iconic sky-scraper building known as the Shard, you will begin to see the potential for inspiration for other designs. There is also, as we have heard, the planned expansion of City Airport.
It is clear that overseas business entrepreneurs are seeing the site’s exciting possibilities. Above all, we must ensure that the local people, particularly the children and the schools in this part of London, inherit and really benefit from a significant part of the promised legacy. There will be a continued demand for premises for athletic events, but much more than that can be passed on. There is great potential for this area. It is a vital part of London that is close to Europe and the global world that we now live and compete in, as others have mentioned, so it is very important that we move in this direction. If that is the plan and that is how the Government are thinking of promoting all these areas and doing their vital best for the people who live in that area, I hope that we will hear about it, not just this evening but well into the future.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for initiating this short debate. I might have been even more grateful had he included Luton, and possibly Pendle, on his list of places, because it would have enabled some of us to join in the passion, advocacy and knowledge that has been displayed this evening by people in respect of the areas that they know best and that they have been involved in for many years.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, talked about east London and the Old Kent Road, and the involvement of faith communities in regeneration. She also touched on issues of diversity, which is something that we know quite a lot about in Luton but that perhaps has not featured as prominently as one would have thought, since it is a common feature to pretty much all the areas that we have talked about this evening. I think the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is right to say that regeneration is not just about cities. I well recognise the problems that might be inner-city problems of resources that are not necessarily at a city level. As the noble Lord would not consider Brighton to be part of Greater London, neither would we consider Luton to be part of Greater London. However, he did touch on the issue that has been an integral part of regeneration for some time: the need to bid for resources. When there are, I believe, 371 bids for support for Mary Portas’s project but only 12 approved, that cannot be a particularly efficient way of proceeding.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham —substituting in part, I think, for the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Liverpool—took us back to SRB programmes and the New Deal for Communities. I remember the New Deal for Communities in Luton; it created a furore because it could be focused only on an area of some 4,000 households. We had pockets of deprivation, and trying to work out which one got it was really quite difficult and traumatic. Nevertheless, the right reverend Prelate rightly focused on the twin engine of business and community for growth. I am pleased that the leap that he is aware of is proceeding rapidly. It has been a mixed picture across the country, as I understand it. Perhaps the noble Baroness might update us on that.
The noble Lord, Lord Storey, talked with passion and knowledge about Liverpool and the difficulties of shaking off a sometimes negative image. People will remember the riots—we had riots in Luton—which is somehow the image that is carried forward, whatever good work and regeneration are otherwise going on. Like him, we used to look at cranes in the sky as a measure of how well we were doing.
The noble Lord, Lord King, reminded us about east London and Canary Wharf, which is a fantastic development. In part it mirrors what happened in Manhattan. All the action was at Wall Street and no one thought of developing the centre until the Rockefeller Center was created, which has been hugely successful. The noble Lord made an interesting point about housing and home ownership. I partly recognise the point that he made, but I wonder whether people would be in exactly the same position now. A lot of houses have been swallowed up and have not been replaced, and young people in particular are finding it very difficult to get a house even to rent. I think that the noble Lord was right: this is about vision. That seems to be the common feature, whatever the story regarding regeneration. That featured in the contribution of my noble friend Lady Hughes, particularly in relation to Salford Quays, which was a driver for significant private sector investment in Salford. I think that the strap-line was “aspire to inspire”. A quite strong statistic is £7 of investment for every £1 of public subsidy.
The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, talked about the major change that he had seen in east London. A phoenix rising from the ashes was the expression that he used, with six and a half miles of waterway. Sadly, in Luton the River Lea stays mostly underground, but perhaps we can work on that. The noble Lord is right to say that east London has been put firmly on the map of the UK. Obviously what happens post the Olympics is going to be very important.
During the remainder of the time that I have, I should like to concentrate on the Government’s role in and approach to regeneration generally, not necessarily specifically in the areas that have been touched upon. As to what regeneration actually means, I would adopt the Select Committee’s definition of it being,
“a long term, comprehensive process which aims to tackle social, economic, physical and environmental issues in places”,
of deprivation,
“where the market has failed”.
Of course, it encompasses, but is not limited to, growing the local economy. The question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, is whether the Government have plans for a co-ordinated approach that would encompass the north-west as well as east London. As I understand it, the position is that the Government have no plans to publish a national regeneration strategy of any sort and therefore do not necessarily approach these matters in a national strategic way.
I do not propose to comment further on the detail of the specific challenges, progress, successes and disappointments of the regeneration of either east London or the north-west, because we have heard from others fantastic testimony to what has been achieved.
It is understood that the Government set their face against a national strategy because they consider that regeneration should be a matter for determination at the local level, and their role is to provide the means for local communities to do this. From what the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, I think he would agree with that approach. We support a true localist agenda, but it does not have to be inconsistent with a national strategy. We can support many of the individual tools, flexibilities, options and powers that are being provided to local communities, although some of them are as yet untested. We will be spending time over the next few weeks examining whether the business rate retention scheme, as proposed, is an effective incentive for local authorities to promote growth. Tax increment finance is something that we have supported, although the Treasury looks to be restricting local freedoms in this regard for TIF 2. We have supported enterprise zones.
As we have heard, local leadership is vital, although the Government seem to have misread the mood in major cities in equating this with directly elected mayors. I do not think that that is a point that the noble Lord, Lord King, would necessarily agree with; he would see it as a missed opportunity.
The general power of competence for councils and the prospect of a transfer of public functions to major cities is also something that we have supported through the Localism Act. We have a shared aim of encouraging powerful and innovative cities to lead their areas. It is early days for the new planning system. Whatever the challenges, at least the regional spatial strategies provided a strategic setting. It remains very difficult to see that the duty to co-operate is a sufficiently robust alternative when it comes to those sensitive but sometimes vital planning decisions.
Anyone who has got close to regeneration projects will know of—we have heard about it this evening—the importance of community support and engagement, and the need for capacity-building. Therefore, we support the Government in continuing to seek to put the community and community groups at the heart of regeneration. This is nothing new. However, the ability of communities to respond is clearly being hampered by cuts to regeneration funding and the savage cuts to local authority budgets. The Select Committee report mentions that many of the community groups most closely involved in regeneration are uncertain about their future.
Funding will always be difficult, but it has been the speed of withdrawal that has created special problems. We have seen the demise of RDAs and the termination of the working neighbourhoods fund and the local enterprise growth initiative. It is acknowledged that there are new funding streams, but the Select Committee suggests that these—the new homes bonus, the regional growth fund and the investment in rail—are perhaps not focused primarily on regeneration.
There is concern that, by concentrating on growth and the provision of levers to facilitate this, the Government are skewing the regeneration effort and not doing enough to tackle the broader and multifaceted issues that comprise deprivation—issues that affect the north-west, east London and, indeed, all parts of the UK. Notwithstanding their commitment to localism, they should produce a national regeneration strategy that encompasses the broader issues of health inequalities, skills gaps, the prevalence of crime, worklessness and poor housing: a strategy that shares the benefits of community engagement, partnership working, local leadership and working with the private sector—indeed, a proper strategy for regeneration.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, I expected this to be a well informed and interesting debate. If I may say so, it is an unusual debate for this House, and it is one that perhaps we ought to repeat more frequently. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for having generated it. I acknowledge immediately, as many others have done, that it is his own role, particularly in the East End of London, and his own experience that make him such a powerful voice in these areas. I also thank all other noble Lords who have taken part in the debate.
Although the speeches have concentrated mainly, as one would expect, on the north-west of England and on east London, the question was: what are the Government going to do about the co-ordination of regeneration? The question of the national strategy crops up immediately. The reason why we are not interested in a national strategy is that it imposes a one-size-fits-all concept. What we need to do is make sure that the levers and mechanisms are in place to ensure that a strategy can be localised. I want to spend a few minutes saying what the Government have done over the past few years to lay the groundwork for regeneration and to provide the catalysts.
Twenty-four planned enterprise zones have been set up and they are already engaged in supporting business growth and creating jobs. Noble Lords have mentioned the importance of skills and training and that will be part of enterprise zones. I totally agree that skills and training are vital to the future of commerce and local areas. The enterprise zones employ special business rates. Local enterprise partnerships, mentioned by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, are beginning to work very well. As always with new things, some will do better than others, but many enterprise partnerships are now fully engaged with local authorities, businesses and civic leaders across the country and they are involving their local communities. I want to emphasise this all the time. Regeneration is about local and local people, communities, businesses and authorities need to be taking the initiative in what has to be done while having the background to be able to do it.
We are supporting small businesses by cutting bureaucracy and addressing their challenges. We are supporting housing regeneration with a commitment to bringing empty homes back into productive use. We are still investing over £6.5 billion in housing, including over £2 billion to make existing social homes decent, and we are continuing with the programme of investment through the European regional development fund. More than 45,000 jobs have been created or safeguarded and nearly 10,000 businesses have been created already. So there is plenty for people to build on and I want to reassure noble Lords that the Government are fully committed to regeneration and see it as essential, both in city areas and, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, in rural areas, which in many ways often need as much help as the city areas.
However, the Government do not believe that they should dictate to local authorities. One of the things that has gone wrong in the past is that it is all being done on top of them. We want to make certain that local authorities and local enterprise partnerships know what their community wants and needs and then that they have the tools to deal with it. We do not want to plan and prescribe but we do want to help local people to get things done. It would be fair to say that in the north-west and in east London there has been and is really strong leadership. I have had the pleasure of going up to the north-west to Manchester, Sheffield and Liverpool within the past year or so and I am astounded at the progress that has been made there and the changes that have come about. Some of that has been to do with European funds, some has been to do with government funds and a whole lot has been to do with the leadership that has made sure that those local areas are put to rights, replacing the industries that have gone and starting to look to the future.
There is an extraordinary scale of regeneration taking place, particularly in the north-west and the Olympic area. In both the areas being discussed today a large part of what has happened has been based on sport. Manchester hosted the Commonwealth Games 10 years ago and east London, of course, is doing the Olympics now. In east London the Government have made significant long-term investment and are supporting a transport infrastructure as well as the developments delivered by the London Thames Gateway Development Corporation and all the other developments. My noble friend Lord King rightly drew attention to the fact that all this started with the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and the noble Lord, Lord King, himself. They were great visionaries determined to see things change. That again was the catalyst.
The Olympic host borough unit is a good example of how joint working between boroughs and agencies can bring about change. It is developing a concerted plan to tackle the long-standing deprivation in the boroughs affected, especially raising the skills and education of local people, and the long-term worklessness that has blighted families for too long. I think that proper attention was given to the mayor of Newham who has been very instrumental in what is going on.
The challenge on convergence and the idea that within 20 years communities that host the 2012 Olympic Games will have the same social and economic chances as their neighbours across London is embedded within the strategic regeneration framework. There is a clear action plan to achieve this. It distils an existing set of strategies created by local agencies and the Government into a coherent common agenda to get local residents into jobs and to extend their life expectancy. It is not an ethereal concept as working towards convergence has brought about tangible success stories—not just the schools, health centre and multi-million pound retail centre within the park but the regeneration of Stratford High Street, to which the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, referred, the improvements to the public realm, and the development at Strand East. Convergence is demanding but not easy to achieve.
The handing over of the Olympic park is another example of how the Government have helped facilitate an alliance between the mayor and the Olympic host boroughs, enabling him to set up the London Legacy Development Corporation. That will be the carry on after the Olympics and it is really important that the legacy of the LLDC does its job. We will all have to ensure that it does—as I am sure it will. It is under the eye of the mayor now and it will be very much in his interests that it is satisfactorily completed.
Turning to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, about the north-west, I think that I said how impressed I was by what has been going on there. She asked a couple of specific questions, one of which was about broadband. I am fumbling around with too many bits of paper here. I cannot give the exact position on broadband but the European regional development fund has recently been opened up and the north-west is one of the areas that will benefit in terms of broadband. I am not certain when it will start but I will let the noble Baroness know. Money is available for that and it should come round in the not too distant future. There is not only Manchester; there is the Sheffield enterprise zone. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham referred to Liverpool and other places and the regional development areas there. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, painted a brilliant picture of Liverpool and what has happened to it. It has one of the finest marine areas which is becoming such a success story. I am not in the least pessimistic about what is going on. In fact, I am enormously encouraged because not only is regeneration being galvanised but it will carry on because local people will want to ensure that their particular areas are improved.
I have about a minute and a half so I shall quickly deal with issues raised. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, asked who is responsible when the Games end. Of course, that is the Mayor of London. It will be entirely within his remit and the new London Legacy Development Corporation particularly. On the issue of international trains not stopping at Stratford, we know there is an aspiration that they should, but a decision to do so is clearly a business case. If that is made out, I hope that one or two will stop there. There are lots of aspirations for Thames crossings and I am sure we will all be sitting on the cable car to make sure that we can get from one place to another.
I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham that the twin-engine approach is right. We need to improve skills and life chances alongside physical regeneration. I have said that and it is obvious to me that there is not much point in having new buildings if we do not give employment and training to local people. I have been handed a note telling me that I have run out of time. It says, “Time up!”, so if I have not dealt properly with any of the points raised and questions asked, I will write to noble Lords. I am sorry that we have not quite had time to wind up the debate in the best way possible, but I thank all noble Lords again for a fascinating hour and a half.