House of Commons

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

Thursday 18 October 2012

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

1. What assessment he has made of the potential for reintroducing the Colne to Skipton rail link.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

The Department for Transport has not made an independent assessment of the economic benefits arising from reopening the Skipton to Colne line. Where local travel needs are the central objective, we look to the local authorities concerned to take the first step in evaluating benefits and prioritising available resources.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I hope the Minister has seen my early-day motion 479, setting out the work of the Skipton East Lancashire Rail Action Partnership campaign group, which is fighting for the line to be reopened. Will he meet with me and representatives of SELRAP to discuss the huge potential benefits of reopening the line?

[Mr Burns]

I hope my hon. Friend is reassured when I say that I have seen and read early-day motion 479. I am more than happy to meet with him and, if he agrees, I think it would be sensible to meet with the relevant local authorities as well.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

2. If he will consider abandoning the planned privatisation of the East Coast Mainline rail service.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

Following the tabling of this question, I considered what the hon. Lady is asking me to do, but I have decided to follow the policy set by the previous Government, who believed in franchising.

[Chi Onwurah]

Since 1997 we have seen Great North Eastern Railway fail and National Express fail, but now we have East Coast trains returning £187 million to the taxpayer. Why on earth would the Minister want to swap that for the unmitigated disaster of the west coast tender? Is not that free-marketism gone mad?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I draw on what the shadow Lord Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), said when he was a Transport Minister:

“The rail franchising system was examined by the National Audit Office last year, and was found to deliver good value for money”

and “steadily improving” services. He continued:

“Passenger numbers are at their highest levels since the 1940s,”

and

“punctuality is more than 90 per cent.”—[Official Report, 1 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 425-6.]

I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said then, and I think it is the right way forward.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on continuing the policies of this Government as well as the last, but there are lessons to be learned for both the east coast and the west coast franchise. Will he ensure that the product of the east coast main line service will remain the premier service in the land?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I want all services to be good services and to serve hon. Members’ constituents, but of course we have lessons to learn—lessons from the way in which certain franchises were unable to continue under the previous Government. I made a statement to the House on Monday in which I said that we would learn those lessons. Two reviews are being undertaken, and I look forward to receiving their representations.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State continues to claim that privatising the east coast rail service is necessary to deliver new investment, but he knows full well that both the planned improvements for the line and the new generation of inter-city trains are being funded by the taxpayer. In the light of the west coast fiasco, will he rethink his opposition to allowing the east coast line to be run as a not-for-private-profit service, not least since, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) said, it returned £187 million to taxpayers last year—money that, from next year, will have to be split with shareholders?

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Lady is rewriting history: the simple fact is that the previous Government were committed to franchising on the east coast main line—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) says he is not bothered about that any more; I shall remind him of things that he supported in the past but now attacks.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Who supported the nationalisation of rail?

[Mr Speaker]

We are grateful for that.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

3. What recent progress his Department has made on rail electrification.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

The Government are committed to an extensive rolling programme of electrification; by the end of the decade, around three quarters of passenger miles travelled in England and Wales will be on electric trains. Electrification will deliver trains that are cleaner, quieter, faster and cheaper to operate, with more capacity for passenger and freight customers.

[Mr Buckland]

Electrification of the great western line through Swindon and beyond will allow increased train capacity. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the need for more seats to allow more passengers to use the service in comfort will be at the heart of the greater western franchise process when it is reopened?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Indeed it will. I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned for greater capacity on that line for some time. I believe that electrification will lead to an increase of 20% in seating capacity on the line by 2018.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State to his job. As he will know, I welcome the go-ahead for the tram train pilot project between Sheffield and Rotherham. The trams will not be delivered until 2015 and there will probably then be a couple years of evaluation. If the scheme is successful—I am sure that it will be—rolling it out will depend on having underused heavy rail lines that are electrified. Will he bear that in mind when considering future electrification?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I will certainly bear in mind the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He has always fought hard for an improved service for his constituents and in the Sheffield area. I will look closely at what he has said.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

14. Does the new Secretary of State recognise the need for electrification in the Tees valley so that we can have a metro service to connect the large conurbation together?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I take that as a bid, and it is one that I will look at in more detail. I am sure that I will hear much more about it from my hon. Friend.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

We in the south Wales valleys are delighted that those lines are to be electrified, but can the Secretary of State tell us when that work will start and how much faster journey times between Treherbert, Llwynypia and Cardiff will be? If he is unable to pronounce those place names or tell us today, will he please write to me?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) for managing to get electrification for Wales into the original programme, and I am very glad that that is something that this Government will—

[Chris Bryant]

I welcomed it.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I know that the hon. Gentleman welcomed it. I am glad that this Government will give us something that he never managed to achieve when he was in government. I think that it will start in 2015.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

18. In view of the need for strategic planning, will the Secretary of State bear in mind that everyone would like electrified railway lines and that provision should be made to give comfort to investors and for infrastructure developments?

[Mr McLoughlin]

As I said earlier, electrification brings many advantages to the rail network, so what my hon. Friend asks for will be delivered by electrification. The plans we have put forward are the most ambitious put forward by any Government.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

South-west MPs met yesterday to discuss the pause in the greater western franchise. One of the concerns raised was the impact of the current ring-fenced electrification programme, which had been built into people’s bid plans. The issue was whether we would in fact see a worse service as a result of those electrification plans, as we have been unable to take the franchise bid forward and there are new timetables because of the works required for electrification.

[Mr McLoughlin]

As with any major infrastructure project, there will be delays while that is taken forward, but ultimately there will be a far better service.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

4. What recent representations he has received on investment for a third railway track between London, Liverpool Street and Brimsdown.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

My hon. Friend refers to a small scheme involving a piece of extra track in the Brimsdown area. The Mayor of London wrote to the Secretary of State this week commending the alternative, but more expensive, scheme, which would also facilitate economic regeneration.

[Nick de Bois]

The Minister will know that the project enjoys substantial support from Network Rail, north London boroughs and the Mayor’s office. It is crucial to the development of north London, including for potentially up to 33% of new homes, and for more than 20,000 jobs. Will he meet me to discuss support for financial frontloading with resulting payback from local authorities, developers and stakeholders? Any expression of support would be welcome.

[Stephen Hammond]

I will of course be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and any other colleagues he feels would be appropriate.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Accepting that half a loaf is better than no bread, will my hon. Friend nevertheless acknowledge that a much more substantial scheme for improving track capacity on that line is the only way to provide commuters and passengers travelling to or from Stansted airport with the kind of service that by now should be seen as essential—and may I join the meeting?

[Stephen Hammond]

My right hon. Friend knows that the second high-level output specification package—HLOS 2 —commits Network Rail to providing extra capacity to meet peak demand in that area. Part of that will be done by having new trains between London, Bishop’s Stortford and Cambridge, and another part is sorting out the capacity constraints south of Broxbourne, which will help his constituents. I would of course be delighted if he joined the meeting.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

5. What funding he has allocated to improve railway stations.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

9. What funding he has allocated to improve railway stations.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

A major programme of station improvements is under way, with several key stations, such as Birmingham New Street, being significantly enhanced. We are also continuing to fund improvements through the national stations improvement programme, the Access for All programme and the station commercial project facility. In addition, enhancements are planned at stations as part of franchise commitments.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. The new hourly service on the East Suffolk line starts on 10 December. That is welcome news, although unfortunately the stations at Beccles and Lowestoft remain in poor condition. Will the Minister encourage Network Rail to work with Greater Anglia and Suffolk county council to upgrade the two stations and ensure that the necessary line maintenance is carried out so that maximum speeds can be achieved and that the benefits of the new service can be fully realised?

[Norman Baker]

Yes is the simple answer. The train operator has a commitment to refresh all its stations before 2014. It hopes that the work will include Lowestoft, Woodbridge and the stations in between and be completed before the service enhancement. The bus-rail interchange improvement at Lowestoft station will result in an improved waiting environment for users. Network Rail is also looking to develop a commercial scheme that could provide improvements at the station.

[Paul Uppal]

May I seek an assurance from the Minister that any future tendering process for the west coast main line will consider investment in Wolverhampton station? We have recently benefited from investment in the Wolverhampton interchange; the bus station in particular has been a real boon to Wolverhampton passengers. I am anxious that that should continue for Wolverhampton train station.

[Norman Baker]

I was pleased to be able to open the new bus station in Wolverhampton, which represents a significant improvement for my hon. Friend’s area. I recognise and am sympathetic to the case that he is making. Obviously, a review of the west coast main line franchise is under way and it would be improper to speculate on that. Nevertheless, he makes a good case, which will be taken into account.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

Many colleagues on both sides of the House are looking forward to railway station improvements as a result of the west coast main line franchise. All of us in the all-party group on the west coast main line, of which I am joint chair, are disappointed that we have arrived at this position. A journey for a commuter or other rail traveller involves the experience not only on the train, but at the railway station. There is also the issue of improved parking facilities at railway stations. The Government need to ensure that those issues will be included in any future franchises—and perhaps there could be a little investment from the Government themselves.

[Norman Baker]

As I mentioned a moment ago, a major programme of station improvement is under way, and that is not affected by the franchise reviews. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about particular stations on the west coast, and I am sure that it will be taken into account. The franchise process will emerge stronger as a result of the reviews now taking place.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Hounslow cycling network, whose representatives I am meeting today, has been promoting the ease and safety of cycling. Will the Minister confirm what plans he has to improve the provision of cycling racks at railway stations?

[Norman Baker]

That is very much part of the work undertaken in the Department through the door-to-door journeys initiative, which I have begun. In addition, I recently allocated £7 million to the cycle-rail working group to improve facilities for cyclists at stations. We look to franchise deliverers to enhance cycle provision as a consequence of franchises that are let.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

6. What his plans are for electrification of the Welsh Valleys lines.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

On 16 July, the Government announced the electrification of the Welsh Valleys lines and the line between Bridgend and Swansea. Under the plans, about two thirds of the population of Wales will be on an electrified train route. The cost of the projects is estimated at some £350 million and the work is expected to be undertaken between 2015 and 2019, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Passenger numbers on the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line have gone through the carriage roof. Transport infrastructure is crucial in Blaenau Gwent, which again saw unemployment rise last month. Will the Minister ensure that the Welsh Government have the funds to redouble the line and improve train frequency and will he bring forward the 2019 date for the completion of electrification, to boost our economy?

[Mr Burns]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the answer that I have just given is a significant boost not only to the Welsh valleys, but to the main line from Cardiff to Swansea. It will create tremendous opportunities for regeneration for business and other passenger travel, and there will be the ancillary advantage of changes and improvements to the rolling stock once the project has been completed.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Having just received a speeding fine from South Wales police for going at 35 mph in a 30 mph zone—it was quite a shock for me this morning—the news about electrification and all the other good news that the Minister mentions greatly encourages me to use the railways in future.

[Mr Burns]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. That just goes to show that the old adage is always the best adage: “Let the train take the strain”.

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

7. What recent changes he has made to the national guidelines on the issue of blue badges. [R]

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

The Department has recently updated its non-statutory guidance for local authorities to reflect reforms to the blue badge system. One of the main issues with the scheme concerned local authority administration, which was inconsistent and inefficient. The updated guidance aims to improve consistency and to remind local authorities of the eligibility criteria set out in the regulations. Local authorities remain responsible for taking decisions about an applicant’s eligibility for a blue badge.

[Annette Brooke]

I thank the Minister for his answer. Many people such as me who have difficulty walking—seven months after an accident—and even more difficulty getting in and out of a car in an ordinary car parking space, look longingly at empty disabled car parking spaces and yet cannot get a temporary blue badge. What can and will the Government and local councils do to address this situation for the future?

[Norman Baker]

I am very sympathetic to my hon. Friend and understand the case she makes. I have looked at the temporary issuing of badges for the sort of situation that she describes. One of the downsides would be tremendous pressure on the limited number of parking spaces available. In June this year I issued an advice note to local authorities indicating how they might deal with locally determined concessions to deal with such situations, and I suggest that she pursue the matter with Poole unitary authority.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

I have two elderly constituents, both long-term blue badge holders, whose only changing condition is that they are getting older and less mobile. They were told that they had to reapply to the county council for a new blue badge. When they did so, they were assessed very briefly over the phone and told that they were no longer eligible. Does the Minister really think that mobility can be assessed by a brief phone call?

[Norman Baker]

To be honest, that does sound a little bit cursory, but the assessment of eligibility criteria is a matter for local authorities, not for the Government. It is important to stress that we have not changed the eligibility criteria at all except to widen them slightly. The hon. Lady needs to pursue the point with her local council.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

8. What the cost to the public purse has been of cancelling the award of the west coast main line rail franchise to date.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

Spend to date on contingency planning by Directly Operated Railways is about £1 million. The cost of reimbursing bid costs to the four bidders is estimated to be about £40 million.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the Minister for his response. He used the word “estimated”. How much does he intend to pay to First Group, whose shares have fallen by 20% since this fiasco began? How can he be sure that he will be able to protect taxpayers from further and significant liability?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I referred in my answer to the estimates that I gave to the House on Monday. They are the best available estimates at the moment, and that is why I will stick by them.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Should not the Opposition be enjoined first to cast the beam out of their own eyes, so that they are better able to take out the mote from their brother’s eye? From the way they bang on about this, one would have thought that Labour in government never wasted a single penny, but the National Audit Office found that it wasted £40 million on an asylum accommodation centre in my constituency where a single sod was never turned and a brick never laid, and we never had a single apology for that.

[Mr McLoughlin]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let us stick to the west coast main line.

[Mr McLoughlin]

In the light of that direction, Mr Speaker, I am not sure how to answer the question. I am responsible for what goes on at the Department of Transport, but if I moved on to the money that was wasted by the previous Government, I think I might need an Adjournment debate.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State and the new members of his team; I am sure that they will do a very conscientious job.

What has been the cost of the consultants and legal advisers employed by the Department in the run-up to the legal case?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I do not have the exact figures at the moment. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State answered some written questions on the matter yesterday, and a wide range of figures are available. The figures I gave in response to an earlier question are £40 million and £1 million.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm what the cost would have been of proceeding with a flawed tendering process and awarding that contract? On the same basis, will he also reconsider the Thameslink rolling stock contract, to make sure that there has been no mistake with that either?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I assure my hon. Friend that I asked those questions rigorously in the Department and I have been assured that this was a wholly different process. As I have said, I am awaiting the outcome of the two inquiries that I have set up.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State admit that taxpayers are set to be stung for far more than the £40 million he is paying back to bidders for the west coast franchise, because what he has not included in that figure is the cost of paying back bidders for the suspended Great Western, Essex Thameside and Thameslink franchises? Will he now come clean to taxpayers about exactly how much of their money will be poured down the drain as a result of his franchising fiasco?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I have given the figures that are available to the House. The other contracts to which the hon. Lady refers are on hold—they have not been let.

[Maria Eagle]

Is it not the truth that the cost to taxpayers is likely to be tens of millions of pounds more by the time the Secretary of State has Britain’s rail services back on track? He will hand millions over to private train companies; millions will be spent running three competitions for this franchise when he should have been running only one; and millions more will be lost if companies decide to sue the Government for the losses that his Department’s incompetence have caused them. Instead of the Department for Transport’s own board investigating itself, do not taxpayers deserve a truly independent inquiry into what went wrong and who was to blame for so much of their money being poured down the drain?

[Mr McLoughlin]

When I was told about this incident and the mistakes that were made, I ordered two immediate inquiries. I wanted to get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible, and that is what I have done. I am sure that we will not be short of a number of inquiries, which will take place subsequent to the Laidlaw and Richard Brown inquiries. I expect that the Public Accounts Committee will want to look at the issue.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

10. What recent assessment he has made of the potential benefits of High Speed 2 to businesses in Birmingham and its surrounding areas.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

HS2 will transform journey times, capacity and connectivity between the Birmingham stations and Leeds, Manchester and London, and will release substantial capacity on the existing rail network. This will help the wider west midlands area to fulfil its economic potential.

[Karen Lumley]

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House how many jobs will be involved in the construction and operation of the first phase of the railway to the midlands?

[Mr McLoughlin]

A number of opportunities will become available as a result of HS2. We expect there to be 9,000 jobs during construction and 1,500 permanent operational jobs, as well as a huge amount of regeneration in the areas served by HS2.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

HS2 is important to Scotland as well as those places south of the border mentioned by the Secretary of State. Will he update us on what discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the plans for HS2 to provide benefits to Scotland as well?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am due to meet Scottish Ministers in the not-too-distant future, and I have had one phone conversation with the First Minister. Last week I announced that we will undertake a study to take HS2 further north into Scotland.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

On 7 July 2011, in a letter on transparency to all the Secretaries of State, the Prime Minister wrote:

“As you know, transparency is at the heart of our agenda for Government.”

The Department and the Cabinet Office are currently concealing information and refusing to publish the Major Projects Authority report on HS2. Will the Secretary of State now show that the Prime Minister’s words are not meaningless when it comes to HS2 and publish that report immediately?

[Mr McLoughlin]

HS2 will be the subject of a huge amount of parliamentary time as we prepare the hybrid Bill and bring it before Parliament in the next Session.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Arguably one of the benefits of HS2 is that it will create extra capacity on the conventional network. However, these services are highly unlikely to be profitable and will require extra subsidy. What calculations has the Department made about the extra cost of that subsidy and the subsequent Barnett consequentials that the Welsh Government will be entitled to?

[Mr McLoughlin]

We are some way off getting to that stage. I am dealing with a number of other figures at the moment, so I will take away the hon. Gentleman’s question and think about it a little more deeply, rather than give a rushed answer at the Dispatch Box.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concerns of constituents up and down the route of the line who have been unable to access the exceptional hardship scheme? When will he start his consultation on fair compensation? We said that we would not allow anybody to have to pay with their own assets or in terms of their own life, and yet that has proven to not be the case.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I well understand that point and the opposition that HS2 has generated. Any major infrastructure brings about a lot of opposition. I hope to be able to publish the Government’s consultation on compensation in the not-too-distant future.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of health and safety standards for light rail projects; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

The Office of Rail Regulation has responsibility for health and safety on light rail and tramways. The Department has therefore made no formal assessment, although our recent publication, “Green Light for Light Rail”, seeks to ensure that excessive costs are driven out, while appropriate safety standards are maintained, thereby putting light rail in a stronger position from which to grow.

[Greg Mulholland]

I thank the Minister for that answer and for his support for light rail. However, having looked at the success of light rail in other countries, particularly across the channel, compared with the costs here, we see that one problem is the imposition of high rail safety standards, which mean that light rail is over-engineered and over-expensive. What will he do to change that?

[Norman Baker]

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that matter, which was one reason why we produced the “Green Light for Light Rail” report. We have made progress through the two summits that I have held subsequently towards more proportionate standards for light rail, which should bring the costs down while ensuring that safety is maintained.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Sir Alan Beith. Not here.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

13. What steps he is taking to address careless driving.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

On 14 June, the Government consulted on proposals to make careless driving a fixed penalty offence, under which drivers who commit less severe examples of the offence, such as driving too close to another vehicle, would be offered educational courses. We hope that that will reduce the instances of careless driving in the not-too-distant future.

[Mr Scott]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the greatest causes of careless driving, even though it is a penalty offence, is people who use mobile phones near schools and more generally, causing accidents? Will that problem be looked into further, because it seems to be spreading?

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend is right. The use of a mobile phone will qualify for an increased fixed penalty, if that is what the consultation decides. In more serious cases, that offence can be prosecuted with considerably greater penalties.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

15. What recent progress he has made on updating rolling stock on the east coast main line.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

In July this year, the Government announced a £4.5 billion investment in new trains under the intercity express programme. That will include new trains to replace the existing high-speed train sets on the east coast main line.

[Mr Leigh]

In the eastern counties, we are very appreciative of the fast service and the excellent rolling stock up to Newark. However, when one gets beyond Newark and into Lincolnshire, one enters a time that land forgot—and, indeed, that the Department for Transport seems to have forgotten. Will the Minister assure me that, as part of the invitation to tender process, he will ensure that there is sufficient good-quality rolling stock, in particular diesel trains, so that the long-standing campaign involving me, my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) for a direct service to Cleethorpes, via Market Rasen, has some chance of success?

[Mr Burns]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. I hope that I can go some way towards reassuring him by saying that the Government are committed to having 35 new trains on the east coast, which will be a combination of electric trains and bi-mode diesel and electric trains. It would be premature to say where those trains will feature on the network, but consideration will be given to the need to improve the service along the whole line.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

16. If he will commission a feasibility study for a Worthing/Lancing bypass due to traffic congestion on the A27.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

The Department has no current plans to undertake a feasibility study into proposals for a Worthing/Lancing bypass. We have been clear that the funding is currently focused on delivering schemes already in the Highways Agency’s investment programme.

[Tim Loughton]

I welcome my hon. Friend to his new position. With it, he inherits the issue of the lack of a Worthing bypass, which predates his parliamentary career and mine. Worthing is the largest town in Sussex. The major house-building programmes that are planned for my area all feed out on to the A27. The situation will only get worse. Will he come down and sit in the traffic on the A27, as have his predecessors, to see the problem for himself? Will he agree to put back on the agenda a value-for-money study of one of the busiest roads in the south-east of England that needs investment?

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend is, as ever, generous in his remarks of welcome. His invitation is equally generous, and I do not think I can refuse it.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Graham Evans. Not here.

[Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

In addition to my recent statements on franchising, last week I announced that passengers will benefit from a reduction of up to 2% in the planned rises in many train fares. That will benefit more than a quarter of a million annual season ticket holders and more weekly and monthly ticket holders. I also announced £170 million for 57 vital road schemes to boost the economy, reduce congestion and improve safety. Earlier this month the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), announced the introduction of new rules better to protect holidaymakers from losing out if their travel company fails, giving UK holidaymakers a simple, straightforward way to know what the financial protection for their holiday is.

[Craig Whittaker]

Metro in west Yorkshire has commissioned a bus service for the upper Calder Valley, a rural community, which for the past year has been served by an incredibly unreliable and poor service. Can the Secretary of State confirm whether there is a process in place for holding a commissioner to account when they do not take action on poor performance against contracts?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I sympathise with the obviously frustrating experience that my hon. Friend’s constituents are having. I know that he has been in correspondence with the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), who leads on the matter in the Department. The Government have provided an extra £10 million of funding this year to help kick-start the development of community transport services in rural areas, and west Yorkshire received £385,000 of that. I am interested in hearing about the experiences of my hon. Friend’s constituents, however, and we will look into the matter.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

On Tuesday the Road Safety Foundation, chaired by Lord Dubs, launched its annual report. It stated:

“Simple attention to safety engineering detail has resulted in extraordinary cuts in road deaths and serious injuries”.

Other leading countries in road safety are committed to improving the safety star rating of their national road networks. What emphasis are our Government placing on that?

[Mr McLoughlin]

We place a lot of emphasis on it. I spent a morning a few weeks ago with road traffic officers in the west midlands, looking at how they operate their managed motorways. They have had great success in reducing accidents on the M42 since it has become a managed motorway. Road safety is incredibly high on our agenda, and as I said, we have announced £170 million for relieving pinch points, which I hope will also help safety.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

T2. I welcome the Government’s decision to set up a commission on aviation capacity. I hope that it will create a new, innovative solution to capacity needs and realise that a third, fourth and fifth runway at Heathrow is not the answer. May I urge my right hon. Friend to encourage the commission to report as quickly as possible?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I believe that setting up the commission was the right way to move forward. I hope to be able to announce the rest of the commission’s membership in the not-too-distant future. My hon. Friend will be able to make recommendations to the Davies commission, which will bring interim recommendations to the Government in 2013. Although some people say that it will take rather a long time, it will not take that long once it gets under way.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

T3. Given the Department’s abject failure to manage the franchise process for the west coast main line, what are the Secretary of State’s views on the possibility of Transport for London being the franchising authority in future for the London parts of the south-eastern network?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am due to meet the Mayor of London in the next few hours, and that may be one issue that he wants to bring forward to me. People will have different views about whether that would be the right way forward.

[Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)]

T6. When addressing the thorny issue of airport expansion, will the Minister look carefully at the huge economic benefits that can be offered at Birmingham airport? Not only is there extensive local support for expansion, but it is an excellent airport.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He makes a valid point: Birmingham is an excellent airport and I was extremely pleased to be able to present it with the airport of the year award at last Thursday’s national transport awards. On the wider issue, Birmingham, like many other regional airports, has a vital role to play in servicing its local community and pushing forward the growth agenda. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Howard Davies commission will consider the whole issue of our hub status, aviation policy and airports and no doubt Birmingham will wish to contribute to that process.

[Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)]

T4. The Caldervale line is in urgent need of new rolling stock as the current units are totally inadequate for the 1 million passengers who use Halifax station every year. Will the Minister inform the House when those passengers will get the new trains that they badly need?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

The hon. Lady knows that the northern hub package will certainly improve opportunities for the Calder valley line between Leeds and Manchester Victoria. The high-level output specification announcement confirmed the go-ahead for the Castlefield corridor scheme. She knows that the 2012 Budget set aside a package of measures to increase line speeds and look at the rolling stock.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

T7. Are there any plans in the Department to begin to look at the commercial condition and strategic future of Britain’s smaller ports, such as Fleetwood and Glasson dock in my constituency?

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend knows that the Government’s national policy statement on ports, published in January, designated and underlined the importance of the contribution made by smaller ports. I was delighted to visit the national smaller ports conference in Windermere two weeks ago and to address it. It is, however, for Associated British Ports to promote the commercial opportunities at Fleetwood, rather than the Government.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

T5. First, I congratulate Dundee youth council on its “It’s no fare” campaign, which seeks to lower bus fares for young people. Will the Minister liaise with his counterpart in Holyrood in Edinburgh to ensure that apprentices and students can get to their place of work or study for the lowest price?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I have a great deal of sympathy for that point of view and recognise that there is an issue with access to work for young people and students that needs to be dealt with. That is why I have been discussing the matter with the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, which is the umbrella body for bus companies, and I am very happy to liaise with colleagues in the Scottish Government and others to try to take it forward.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

T8. For completeness, I should declare that my wife works for Google, albeit in a capacity unrelated to this question. Google, Audi, Ford and Volvo are among the firms pioneering driverless cars, which could cut road accidents by up to 90% while freeing up time that could unleash massive productivity gains. Several US states are testing the technology. What action is the Department taking to explore the viability of that innovation in this country? [R]

[Stephen Hammond]

The technology for driverless cars is, as my hon. Friend says, advancing very quickly. As the Secretary of State just said, our key priority is safety and I want to ensure that those systems are safe and reliable before allowing them on to UK roads. There is of course great potential for UK technology to be at the forefront of these developments and departmental officials are liaising with leading UK researchers in the field.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

T9. In June, the then rail Minister told me that the Government were “making progress on the Thameslink procurement”.—[Official Report, 12 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 67WH.]In August, The Guardian reported that the contract for new trains would be delayed until the autumn, and it is now the autumn. The delivery of new trains for Thameslink frees up electric rolling stock to move north, but any delay puts that in jeopardy. Will the Minister meet me and Merseytravel to guarantee that we will not end up with an electrified line from Manchester to Liverpool but no electric trains?

[Mr Simon Burns]

Yes. As I know the hon. Lady is aware, significant investment is being made in Thameslink—some £6 billion is being invested, £4.5 billion of which is for the infrastructure and £1.5 billion of which is for the rolling stock. I understand her concerns. My Department and I are working to ensure that the rolling stock is ready for the project and I would have the greatest pleasure in meeting the hon. Lady at her convenience.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

Will the Minister confirm that Access for All funding will not be raided to pay compensation to franchise bidders and that the project to build lifts at Chippenham station is therefore still on track?

[Norman Baker]

I can confirm that the Government are fully committed to Access for All funding. It is entirely separate, and will not be “raided”—the verb used by my hon. Friend. I confirm that a further £100 million over the new control period will take even more stations up to the standard that we expect.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

To return to the subject of the west coast main line, when the Secretary of State made a statement on Monday, I made him aware of a figure given to me by insiders in the industry that suggested a cost of at least half a billion pounds as a result of this debacle. Has any application to the Treasury for additional contingency funding been made as a result?

[Mr McLoughlin]

No.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

British pilots in my constituency are concerned that EU proposals on pilot flight time limitations will weaken the current rules and that, as a result, flying will become less safe. Instead of lowering our standards to harmonise with the EU, should not the EU be raising its standards to harmonise with ours? Failing that, will the Department at least explore with the British Air Line Pilots Association additional safety measures to cover those areas that would otherwise see standards drop?

[Mr Simon Burns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. As he will be aware, the Government place the highest priority on safety, both for passengers, and for those who fly and work on our airlines. We are playing a vigorous role in this Europe-wide initiative, and it is for the Civil Aviation Authority to lead. The Government will do nothing with which the CAA is not content, and we will continue to consider the issue as it moves forward.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

As a directly operated railway, the east coast main line returned £187 million to the taxpayer last year. How much money will Virgin pay to the taxpayer during the period of extension to its west coast main line franchise?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Negotiations are ongoing.

The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked—

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

1. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the effects on women of the introduction of universal credit.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)]

I have had many conversations with the Secretary of State at the Department for Work and Pensions, and others, regarding universal credit. Universal credit is designed to encourage people to work, and benefit women who find the existing system a barrier to work. It will help lone parents, who are mostly women, work a small number of hours through increased earnings disregards, and provide child care for the first time for those working under 16 hours.

[Mr Bain]

I welcome the Minister for Women and Equalities, and her colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) to their new positions. [Interruption.] And—how could I forget?—my neighbour, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson).

Does the Minister accept that work needs to pay for all women, so how will she ensure that, when universal credit is introduced next year, 1 million lone parents do not lose out—as Gingerbread has suggested—on the equivalent of two-thirds of the unintended increase in the tax allowance, taking home only £70 for every £1,000 increase in the allowance, compared with £200?

[Maria Miller]

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree, one of the best ways we can support lone parents to get out of poverty is to help them into work. That is exactly what universal credit is trying to do—to ensure that lone parents can stay close to the labour market and, for the first time, get child care support if they work under 16 hours a week.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and Minister for Women and Equalities, on her double promotion. I hope that she and her new team will enjoy the work on women and equalities.

Despite the many good intentions behind universal credit, the detail could prove worrying, particularly in cases of domestic violence. Ditching the principle that payments go to the main carer and having just a single payment to the household could make things harder in cases of financial coercion. In addition, the way that housing payments are delivered could make it difficult for refuges, which fear that they could lose around 60% of their funding. It looks as though the detail of universal credit has been designed without any consideration for those vulnerable women. Will the Minister remedy that and ensure that the Government Equalities Office looks urgently at the matter, and will she discuss the issue with her colleagues to ensure that the regulations are right?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. Lady is right to say that the detail on universal credit is vital, and she will be reassured that we have already looked at the issue in detail. We have worked with women’s aid organisations to ensure that refuges have special treatment in that respect, and we have retained powers to ensure, if absolutely necessary, that payments can be split between men and women if domestic violence is in play.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

2. What recent assessment she has made of the effects of recent labour market trends on black and minority ethnic communities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Mrs Helen Grant)]

Tackling unemployment is a priority for this Government. Our approach is to support according to individual need rather than to segregate according to ethnic group. On the matter of need, Mr Speaker, would you allow me to pay tribute to the fact that today is anti-slavery day?

[Heidi Alexander]

Yesterday, the TUC published a report that showed that the unemployment rate among young black men stands at 50%, and that that group has experienced the sharpest rise in unemployment since the Minister’s Government came to power. Does she recognise the devastating impact that her Government’s failure to get the economy moving is having on the lives of those young men? What specific action will she take to tackle the problem?

[Mrs Grant]

I do not accept the accuracy of the figures the hon. Lady mentions, but I accept that the figures on young black men and employment are bad, and that they need to improve. A number of the figures given fail to classify those in full-time education, but it would be wrong to assume that someone needs additional support simply because of the colour of their skin. Notwithstanding that, the Government are giving a range of tailored support, through Jobcentre Plus, the fantastic Work programme, the Youth Contract and all our measures to get Britain working. We should not stereotype people according to ethnic groups—everyone needs help.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

I welcome my hon. Friend to her responsibilities. As part of the task of ensuring that the colour of someone’s skin is no more important than the colour of their eyes or hair, will she encourage her colleagues in the Government to promote vocational qualifications and achievements in education, so that people can be chosen on their merit and qualities rather than be disqualified because of prejudice or stereotypes?

[Mrs Grant]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The one-size-fits-all approach to unemployment has clearly failed. We need local providers to deliver good, innovative local services. We should be pleased that, in 2010-11, the highest number of black and minority ethnic apprentices started their training. Michael Gove’s reforms will be key to that, and I very much look forward to seeing them coming to fruition.

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure the Minister was referring to the Secretary of State for Education.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

3. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the effects of tax and benefit changes on women and their families.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

I have had conversations with my ministerial colleagues on a range of issues. This Government are supporting women and their families, for example by extending child care support through universal credit, and by lifting 2 million of the lowest-paid workers out of income tax altogether—six out of 10 of whom are women.

[Chris Ruane]

Eighty per cent. of the gainers from the cut in the 50% tax rate are men. According to House of Commons research, 75% of the losers from tax and benefit changes are women. Does one nation Toryism include women?

[Jo Swinson]

I am not convinced that I am the best-placed person to talk about one nation Toryism, but I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the cost of the cut to the top rate of tax is dwarfed by the large amount of money that we are putting in to the tax cut for people on low incomes. Sixty per cent. of gainers from that are women.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Minister has interpreted the question liberally and democratically, as one might have expected.

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

4. What steps she is taking to encourage more women to become entrepreneurs.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer questions 4 and 9 together. The majority women-led small and medium-sized enterprises already—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Lady, but we cannot have Ministers grouping questions on the hoof. There was no advanced notice of this intended grouping, and therefore, I am afraid it does not apply. If a mess of the matter was made, that is regrettable, but that is the Minister’s responsibility, not mine.

[Maria Miller]

Thank you for that guidance, Mr Speaker.

The majority of women-led SMEs already contribute about £50 billion annually to the UK economy. We are building on that by promoting an entrepreneurial culture in schools and by identifying female role models and mentors. We also have a range of business support and access-to-finance schemes open to all entrepreneurs, male and female.

[Amber Rudd]

I have recently volunteered to be a mentor for the new enterprise allowance locally, although, curiously, I have not been appointed a mentee yet—I am sure that will be coming. Will the Minister join me in urging women with business experience, including Members of Parliament, to become a mentor and help other women become entrepreneurs?

[Maria Miller]

I pay tribute to the excellent work that my hon. Friend does in her constituency to support businesses. She is absolutely right that mentoring is a vital part of helping more women get involved in business. The Home Secretary announced funding of £600,000 towards to the Get Mentoring initiative last year, and to date more than 10,000 volunteer mentors have been trained, 42% of whom are female, and I announced a further £100,000 for this initiative last month.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I recently attended a fantastic event in Liverpool organised by the Women’s Organisation specifically on how women could access finance. I heard at first hand the challenges that many women face when they try build their businesses. Is the Minister concerned that, according to the Department for Work and Pensions, last year just 17% of people benefiting from a new enterprise allowance scheme were women? Does she agree that this flagship policy is failing properly to support women’s entrepreneurship?

[Maria Miller]

I am sure that the hon. Lady knows that earlier this month changes were announced to the new enterprise allowance scheme, and there is now day-one access for people on jobseeker’s allowance, which will open it up to more people. Also, we are already doing extensive work on access to finance, and will be publishing our response shortly.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

9. Will the Minister commit to liaising with her colleagues in the Department for Education to encourage young girls to take subjects such as business studies and economics?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that schools have an important role to play here, although I stress that it is not just about studying business studies or economics. Businesses want to ensure that the young people they are employing have the literacy and numeracy skills needed in a successful business today. I applaud the Secretary of State for Education on his work in this area.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

A recent study in Northern Ireland showed that 80% of women were in part-time work, and I understand that the figures on the UK mainland are similar. Does the Minister agree that we need a strategy that allows women to fulfil their potential, when they desire it, instead of being seemingly pigeonholed into a part-time working pattern?

[Maria Miller]

The important thing is that women and parents are able to balance their work and family lives. Our work on the modernisation of the workplace is important to that. I also reiterate my comments about universal credit and the ability of women to access child care support when they are working shorter hours. Some £300 million is being invested in that. That is something that was not forthcoming under a Labour Government.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

5. What assessment she has made of the effects of Government policies on efforts to tackle violence against women.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government’s approach to tackling violence is set out in our strategy to end violence against women and girls and the supporting action plan. We monitor the delivery of the strategy and the impact of wider Government policies through regular cross-Government delivery boards, stakeholder meetings and inter-ministerial groups.

[Wayne David]

The Minister will be aware that earlier this year Professor Walby prepared a report showing that no fewer than 230 women every single day were denied refuge accommodation through lack of space. Has his Department made an assessment of that report?

[Mr Browne]

The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important issue, because refuges can play a key role in helping women who have been the victims of domestic violence, as I have seen in my constituency. That is the case across the country, as well, so I shall certainly consider any recommendations that we can incorporate further to improve our response to this terrible crime.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

7. I am not keen on witch hunts or anything like that, but what has happened with Jimmy Savile has shocked everyone. What can the Minister say about the role of the Government in protecting young children and vulnerable people, and what lessons can be learned from the whole Jimmy Savile experience?

[Mr Browne]

I am sure that my hon. Friend speaks for the whole House about the shock and revulsion felt at the allegations made against Jimmy Savile. It increasingly appears that a culture of abuse took place in the past and in my cases—it is important to remember—continues to take place. We need to learn lessons from this specific case and be vigilant in understanding the threat that exists in our communities here and now.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Today is anti-slavery day. Figures show an increase in reported cases of human trafficking, but we all feel that that is still the tip of a terrible iceberg that, of course, includes women and children being trafficked into prostitution. Given that tackling these terrible cross-border crimes relies on things such as co-operation with Europol, sharing data, criminal records and expertise, and the European arrest warrant, how on anti-slavery day do Ministers justify opting out of all those things?

[Mr Browne]

I strongly endorse the hon. Lady’s starting observation about what a terrible crime human trafficking is, and it is our intention as a Government to be vigilant in tackling it more effectively. That is why we are creating the National Crime Agency, which will come into effect this time next year, and the issue is already a priority for the Serious Organised Crime Agency. It is important that we co-operate with countries across Europe—and, for that matter, further afield—to ensure that we have the highest level of resilience at our borders, but also before people get to that point.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

6. What steps she is taking to increase the number of women in public company boardrooms; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

The Government are working to implement a voluntary and business-led approach. We are supporting the excellent work of Lord Davies, which has resulted in an unprecedented increase in the number of women on boards. We are also putting in place a range of measures to ensure equal opportunities for women in the workplace, including help with child care, extending flexible working and introducing a new system of flexible parental leave.

[Miss McIntosh]

Although those measures are undoubtedly welcome, can the Minister explain why we fall so woefully short of our competitors in other European countries and elsewhere? Will she reflect on how many new members of boards will be appointed as a result of those measures, bearing in mind that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) said, they should be appointed on the basis of merit and ability?

[Jo Swinson]

The Government’s approach is showing that encouraging businesses to take the issue seriously is paying dividends. Indeed, more than a third of new appointments to boards over the last 12 months have been women. There is certainly more to do, but that shows that the approach we are taking is the right one. In fact, we are doing well on this matter compared with many other countries. They have been looking at our approach in the Lord Davies review, often to see how they might be able to take on board some of the best practice that we have already developed, and our officials have been sharing that with officials in other countries.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

The Minister is incorrect: this 1% rate of progress means that the girls are not yet born who will benefit from it. Will she look at the Australian model—both at what the Australian Prime Minister has said and at the federal Government target of 40% men, 40% women and 20% of either gender?

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question, and I certainly think that many across the House would do well to look at what the Australian Prime Minister says and at her rather excellent recent speech on the issue of equality. I disagree that quotas are the right way to proceed, and I do not recognise the figure of 1% that she mentioned. The percentage of women on boards has increased to 17% from 12% since the election, and as I have said, a third of new appointments in the last year have been women.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

8. May I say what a brilliant Women and Equalities Front-Bench team we have now? I really think that the women of this country can take heart from that. Will my hon. Friend continue to hold the line against the EU’s determination to introduce a quota of 40% of women on boards? We simply cannot have quotas for women; they have got to get there under their own steam.

[Jo Swinson]

I can certainly give that reassurance. The approach that we are taking through the Lord Davies review—a target of 25% on boards by 2015—is showing itself to be successful. In fact, we are ahead of schedule in hitting that target. Our approach is showing itself to be successful and the right one to take, and we will resist the EU calls for quotas.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) talked about the Front-Bench team today, but there are only four women in the Cabinet and 23 across Government. Does the Minister accept that the private companies out there on whose boards we want to see more women will not see a Government who are leading by example? It is simply not good enough.

[Jo Swinson]

Clearly a range of new women joined the Government in the latest reshuffle. There is a wealth of talent among the women MPs on the coalition Benches, and I am sure that in future that will result in additional women joining the Government.

[Mr Speaker]

In the spirit of equality, I certainly would not wish to exclude the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). Let us hear from him.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Rather than having politically correct targets, is it not better for companies in the private sector to decide for themselves who are the right people to be on their boards, irrespective of gender, race or religion? Should not all such appointments be made on merit, rather than trying to meet the politically correct targets that the Minister has referred to?

[Jo Swinson]

It is always a delight to hear from my hon. Friend. He perhaps does not fully recognise the benefits that businesses gain from having more diversity on their boards. The fact that fewer than one in five board members are women shows that there is a wide talent pool out there that is not being drawn upon; businesses could benefit hugely from ensuring that those talents are used in their boardrooms.

Energy Tariffs

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

10:35

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): Yesterday, the Prime Minister threw energy policy into confusion, causing chaos—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. At this stage, all that the right hon. Lady needs to do is to ask the Secretary of State to make a statement on the matter.

[Caroline Flint]

I ask the Secretary of State to make a statement on the matter.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

Rising energy prices are a cause for concern in these difficult times, particularly for those vulnerable consumers who struggle to meet their bills. I am profoundly concerned and disappointed to hear of the recent energy price rises, and I will be seeking to discuss them with the relevant suppliers as a matter of urgency.

My Department has already taken a number of different actions to assist consumers with their bills. Programmes such as the carbon emissions reduction target, Warm Front, the green deal and the energy company obligation will make homes more energy efficient. In addition, the warm home discount will provide no less than £1.1 billion of support up to 2015 to help 2 million low-income and vulnerable households annually.

Following the Prime Minister’s announcement yesterday, I am pleased to confirm that we will be bringing forward legislation to help energy consumers to get the best deal. We have already regulated, we have plans to improve competition and simplify tariffs in the retail market process, and we will improve liquidity and competition in the wholesale market, through the Energy Bill, in weeks rather than months. A number of options are being considered. For example, the voluntary agreement with energy suppliers announced in April secured a number of measures which will be evaluated to see whether we should make the legislation binding. This is a complicated area, and we will have discussions with the industry, consumer groups and the regulator in order to work through the detail.

[Caroline Flint]

As I was saying, the Prime Minister threw energy policy into confusion yesterday, causing chaos in the energy industry and leaving his own Ministers at a loss over what Government energy policy actually is. It is no wonder that the Secretary of State has avoided coming to the House today to explain a policy that he knew nothing about until yesterday.

As energy bills have gone up by over £200 in the last two years, the public deserve an answer. Switching has fallen to its lowest level ever, and in recent days three of the big energy companies have announced another round of price hikes this winter, so it was not surprising that there was a great deal of interest when the Prime Minister told the House yesterday that

“we will be legislating so that energy companies have to give the lowest tariff to their customers”.—[Official Report, 17 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 316.]

But now it appears that energy companies will not be forced to put all customers on cheaper tariffs after all.

Let me ask the Minister three straightforward questions. First, did he know about the announcement before it was made yesterday, or was the Prime Minister making it up as he went along? Secondly, can he confirm today whether the Government will be legislating to force the energy companies to put all their customers on the cheapest tariff—not through a voluntary agreement or through sending a letter once a year, but, as the Prime Minister said, legislating to make the energy companies put all their customers on the lowest tariff? Is that their policy or not? Thirdly, if that is their policy, will the Minister explain how it will work and when it will be implemented? If not, will he explain what the Prime Minister meant and tell us when he will return to the House to put the record straight?

We all mis-speak from time to time, and the Prime Minister was under a lot of pressure yesterday, but for the Government to spend a day pretending to have a policy that they have no intention of implementing is no way to run the country. It is like something out of “The Thick Of It”. In the past year, I have made the case for a radical reform of Britain’s energy market. The millions of families and pensioners who are worried about how they will heat their homes deserve better than policy made on the hoof, and the House needs answers.

[Mr Hayes]

You know, Mr Speaker, that it is not my habit to be excessively partisan in this House, and the British people will judge how to define “excessive” in the light of the fact that in 13 years the Labour party did so little to plan for our energy future. The right hon. Lady, who was a Minister when that party was in government, dithered and delayed and deferred key decisions about energy policy and investment, which has left us in the situation we face today. It is not so with this Government, who will bring forward the Energy Bill to reform markets, increase competition and secure investment, which should have been done years ago.

Let me answer the right hon. Lady’s questions very directly. She asked whether I knew what the Prime Minister was considering. Of course we understand what the Prime Minister was considering, as we have been debating and discussing the provisions of the Energy Bill for months. The draft Bill has been carefully scrutinised by the Select Committee—the excellent Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, if I may say so—while the Opposition have made their views known, the industry is in constant dialogue with the Government on these matters and consumer groups are regularly consulted, so of course all these matters have been discussed and considered over the months.

With an alarming misunderstanding—or, at least a supposed misunderstanding—of parliamentary process, the right hon. Lady then asked how this policy would work and how would it be implemented. She will know that this Government take the Energy Bill so seriously that we are determined that it should have proper scrutiny in this House. During that scrutiny, we will of course discuss how these things will work and how they will be implemented. That is a fundamental part of the process by which legislation passes through this Parliament.

The right hon. Lady asked for an affirmation of our determination to tackle the issue of tariffs. Had she had the good fortune to be at the Conservative party conference, she would have heard me on a number of occasions articulating, with some style, the case for lower tariffs as a means of reducing demand and placing an emphasis on demand- side measures that the previous Government failed to do for almost their entire stewardship of the energy brief.

The answer is yes, we will use the Energy Bill to get people lower tariffs. There are, of course, different options to be considered in that process, but those options will be discussed with the industry and with consumer groups. More than that, they will be effective in a way for which only this Government—and I am bound to say, this Minister—are renowned. If I may say so, I have brought fresh energy to this brief, and I am determined that this Bill will be a landmark piece of legislation in the interests of the British people, delivering lower energy prices for businesses and households across the country.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. A sizeable number of hon. and right hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, and I am keen to accommodate that interest. I remind the House, however, that business questions are to follow and that thereafter there are to be two relatively well subscribed debates to take place under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee. Brevity is therefore of the essence from Back-Bench and Front-Bench Members alike. I trust that the Minister of State, who has just addressed the House with the eloquence of Demosthenes, will tailor the length of his responses accordingly.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Does this not turn on a very short compass? Will my hon. Friend confirm that the difference is that he intends within 13 weeks to bring forward legislation to ensure that consumers have the lowest possible electricity prices, whereas the Opposition had 13 years in government in which they did absolutely nothing to help consumers with electricity prices?

[Mr Hayes]

Alacrity and the defence of the common good lie at the heart of all I do.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

If you were to wander through the corridors of the big six energy companies today, Mr. Speaker, you would hear the sound of low tariffs being ripped up and thrown in the bin. How, through legislation, can the Minister seriously make it an option for the lowest tariff offered to be low and affordable, rather than being set by the energy companies to suit their profit margins?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady is right—as she so often is, by the way—to suggest that we need a robust relationship with the energy companies. Of course they are partners in this process, but none the less we will take the necessary steps to ensure that the people get the best possible deal, for we are the people’s party and the people’s Government.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

Having just experienced the horrors of trying to switch tariffs myself, I know that a lot more work still needs to be done to make it much easier. I commend North Lincolnshire council, which is looking at having its front-line staff in the Link centres trained to advise people on how to switch, but what we really need is for the energy companies to take that on board and offer the training that is necessary.

[Mr Hayes]

That is an excellent point. I will happily engage with my hon. Friend and his local district council. He is right: clarity and explicability are important, and I do not think that they have always been as good as they might have been in the past.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am hoping to move on to the next business at 11 o’clock.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

These proposals did not feature anywhere in the draft Energy Bill, the White Paper, the technical updates or the impact assessments, so I assume that DECC staff have been working hard on the new idea this morning. Can the Minister guarantee that when he has worked out how to do this, it will not impede the progress of the Energy Bill and its delivery to the House?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is a great expert on these matters, and he is a member of the Select Committee that scrutinised the Bill so carefully. One of the first things that I did when I became the Energy Minister was to meet the Chairman of that Committee to consider the suggestions that it had made about the Bill. I do not think that that will slow things down, but it will certainly ensure that we get things right. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s continuing diligence in these matters.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I regret the fact that my hon. Friend has had this pit dug for him. Do I understand from his reply to the urgent question that this is not a firm policy proposal, but merely an item that is currently under consideration—if I may use his own language?

[Mr Hayes]

I think that the Prime Minister was crystal clear yesterday. [Laughter.] The Opposition are often behind the curve. We believed in one nation when they had not heard of Disraeli. The truth is that the Prime Minister was very clear. This is a policy intent, which will be delivered through the necessary mechanisms. Luckily, the Energy Bill is to be presented to the House, and that will allow proper scrutiny and consideration by Opposition Members and others.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

Will the Minister arrange for the impact assessment of the Prime Minister’s announcement to be placed in the Library, so that we can all have a look at it?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is an experienced Member of the House. When the proposals are presented, of course there will be an impact assessment.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

This morning my constituent Anthony Noel contacted me to say that his energy bills had risen by more than 11% in the last year, so I welcome the remarks made by the Prime Minister yesterday. I understand that the Government will be inviting the six main energy companies to engage in a round-table discussion of the policy. Can the Minister confirm that?

[Mr Hayes]

The dialogue with the energy companies is important to us, so yes, we will be doing that.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

At a time when families are struggling to pay their fuel bills and fuel companies are making billions of pounds of profit, why does the Minister not stop coming forward with gimmicks, and introduce effective regulation that will control those companies?

[Mr Hayes]

Regulation is important. I do not want to be ungenerous—still less unkind—but it must be said that the last Government had 13 years in which to do something about this. I have been in the job for a matter of days, and we are getting on with it.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that although the shadow Minister speaks of an energy policy, the previous Government simply did not have one? They took none of the big decisions, such as on new nuclear build, which is why we are over-reliant on expensive imports today.

[Mr Hayes]

Let me be even more generous. There is always a tension involved in taking big strategic decisions in a democratic polity, because of the imperatives that we face day to day, week to week. However, that cannot legitimise a failure to take decisions that were in the national interest and for the common good. Those strategic decisions, given their scale and time scale, need to be framed around meaningful legislation that establishes a robust relationship between those with commercial interests and those missioned, as we are, to defend the national interest. That is precisely what we will do, in weeks not months, and at its heart will be a landmark piece of legislation which I will guide through this House.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

We all know that the Minister is eloquent in the art of obfuscation, but will he set aside the flim-flam just for the moment and answer a straightforward question: was he aware that the Prime Minister was going to make this announcement—yes or no?

[Mr Hayes]

The Prime Minister, as the hon. Gentleman knows, comes to this House weekly to be scrutinised by this House. Does he give me notice of every answer and does he get notice of every question? Of course the answer is no. If the hon. Gentleman is asking me whether we were considering these matters—whether I was considering them and whether the Secretary of State was considering them—and whether they were being debated as part of the consideration of the Energy Bill following the scrutiny by the Select Committee and others, the answer is a definitive yes.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

In meetings I have had this week, major green investors were already complaining about perceived political noise around green investment. Does the Minister agree that if uncertainty is the enemy of investment, surprises such as yesterday’s are even more unhelpful?

[Mr Hayes]

The fundamental objective of the strategy I outlined is to bring clarity. Clarity is the prerequisite of certainty, certainty is the prerequisite of confidence and confidence is the prerequisite of investment. That, in a nutshell, is where the failure of the previous Administration lies.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

As this moment in time, 80% of people are paying too much for their energy because of confusion and unfair tariffs. Last year alone, 70 more tariffs were introduced, making a total of more than 400. What are the Government actually doing to make things more transparent for consumers?

[Mr Hayes]

As I mentioned, transparency and what I described as accessibility or explicability are crucial—the hon. Gentleman is right about that. People need to know how they can get the best deals. We have done a lot of work on that, but we need to do a lot more. We need a simplification of the process, and that has been debated in this House for a considerable time. He makes a good point, which was also made earlier, and we will be drawing it to the close attention of the energy companies and considering it as we develop our own thinking.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

While many households in Pendle are worried about being able to afford their energy bills this winter, millions of pounds available through the Government’s Warm Front scheme go unclaimed. The same applies for the warm home discount, which, as the Minister said, alone represents more than £1.1 billion of support for the poorest households. If these proposals to give people the lowest energy tariff are going to be done through people’s energy bills, may I ask that we take the opportunity also to improve the information contained in those bills about those two important schemes?

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend will know that one of the features of the energy marketplace in recent years has been a concentration of the number of companies involved. That was not predicted at the time of privatisation; people expected a more plural market, and the competition and downward price pressure that that brings. While the number of companies has shrunk, the number of tariffs has simultaneously grown, by, I understand, something like four-hundredfold. That is not sensible. Whatever the intention, it is leading to a degree of confusion which I think is unhelpful. Better information on bills and a simplification of tariffs, targeted in a way that allows people to get the best possible arrangement, are an absolute priority.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

Many of my constituents have no access to broadband, particularly those who are elderly, and many pay by pre-payment cards. Will the Minister be the people’s champion today by guaranteeing that those people will have the lowest tariff?

[Mr Hayes]

Yes, the answer to that question is that we need to do that in a range of ways. Sometimes the mechanisms used do not reach the very people whom one wants to help most. I do believe in the redistribution of advantage; perhaps in that sense I take a rather more forward position than the Labour party.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has said that there are more than 400 tariffs at the moment. How many will there be after he legislates?

[Mr Hayes]

Considerably fewer than there are now.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

In the real world, does the Minister realise that millions of people on modest incomes fear the coming winter because of the huge increases in energy prices that have occurred and will continue to occur? When are the Government going to take a hold of these privatised energy companies, which pay their leading personnel very high salaries, make huge profits and act as a cartel?

[Mr Hayes]

As someone who comes from as modest a background as anyone in this House and is committed to social mobility, I could hardly not be aware of that.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Could the Minister confirm whether he or any other Minister in his Department discussed the Prime Minister’s announcement with any energy company, specifically Scottish Power in my constituency, prior to the announcement yesterday?

[Mr Hayes]

I have said that we have an ongoing dialogue with all the energy companies. In the short time that I have been the Minister, I have clearly been involved in that dialogue. I have met representatives of some of the companies several times already. That is part of the business of being in government, as the right hon. Gentleman knows—I recall that he was a very distinguished Minister in the Home Office. The discussion about tariffs is, of course, a core part of that dialogue. I have, even in the short time that I have been the Minister, come to the conclusion that demand management has not been given sufficient attention in the past and now needs to be a crucial part of our strategy, and tariffs are central to that.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The Minister has shown some chutzpah, if not modesty, today, but is it true that the Department of Energy and Climate Change advised the Prime Minister against this policy?

[Mr Hayes]

DECC has a wonderful relationship with our other partners in government—of course that includes the Treasury and No. 10. I say, with appropriate modesty, that that relationship has improved still further since my arrival.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister was very explicit in response to my question yesterday. If the Government do not follow through on his announcement, will the Minister ask the Prime Minister to come back to the House to apologise for raising people’s expectations only for them to be dashed at the last minute?

[Mr Hayes]

Let me repeat what I said earlier, because amplification is necessary, given the hon. Gentleman’s question—I note that he was the person who raised this matter with the Prime Minister yesterday. We want to use the Energy Bill to get people the lowest tariffs—it is as plain as that.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

It is right to say that the strategy of having no strategy cannot go on, but are pop-up policies either workable or worthy as an answer?

[Mr Hayes]

The development of the strategy is challenging. Putting aside what can sometimes be excessively political partisan banter, the Government and the Opposition know that it is essential to put in place a strategy that works. We are planning for a period of between 20 and 60 years, depending on how we measure the lifetime of the types of different generating resource in which we are looking to encourage investment. The issue requires a large degree of consensus across this House, and I hope that I will be able to work to deliver that, in order to ensure that the strategy that the hon. Gentleman describes is meaningful. That is a challenge, but it is one that we must meet, in the national interest.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I think that the Minister is on record as saying that he was not informed about this. He said earlier that he will seek to have a meeting with the energy companies to talk about the price rises—will he explain that? Does it mean that he has not had a meeting previously? Was he not informed by the energy companies about the price rises? If he was not, that would be astounding.

[Mr Hayes]

Again, the hon. Gentleman will know, because of his experience in the House, that when British Gas announced a price rise, as the first company to do so, we of course had a discussion with the company. I had discussions with British Gas at the weekend, and I spoke to other energy companies as well. Of course that dialogue takes place, because I want to be clear about the reasons for these rises. International gas prices comprise a significant reason for them, but I think it is absolutely right that we are robust in our dealings with energy companies; this needs to be a mature and professional relationship. That dialogue will never be better than it has been since I got here, but I tell hon. Members that it will take place on terms defined by the people’s interests and not the interests of any particular commercial organisation.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

While the Government’s policy descends into farce and shambles, 5 million people are being ripped off daily by the big six companies. Can the Minister tell us finally how many people will be on the lowest possible tariff as a result of his Energy Bill?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the proposals I have described today will form part of a Bill. That Bill will be debated and scrutinised by this House, and it would be impertinent of me to anticipate how that Bill will end its passage through this House, because the party of which he is a member will of course table amendments and make its case, and the details of that are at this stage unknown. I will say, however, that our policy intent, articulated by the Prime Minister with, to be frank, a determination not seen when the Labour party was in government, is that people should pay less for their energy through the reform of tariffs. I cannot be plainer than that.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Analysis on “Newsnight” last night suggested that the policy as announced by the Prime Minister could well reduce competition and increase prices. Was the programme right to raise those concerns?

[Mr Hayes]

I do not believe so. I think we can square the circle of increasing competition, which I hope will encourage downward pressure on prices, but at the same time getting the investment we need in energy infrastructure. I described that as a significant challenge—the whole House knows that it is—but I think it can be achieved if we get energy market reform right.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

I wonder, in view of the Minister’s linguistic acrobatics today, whether he can give us a little hint about how he will square that circle?

[Mr Hayes]

I add acrobatic skills to the many qualities that have been ascribed to me by this House. I do not think it is a question of linguistic acrobatics; I think it is a question of getting a set of policies in place that work for Britain. I am sorry to have to say this again, but the previous Government palpably, singularly, failed to plan for our energy future. This Government will not make the same mistake. Tariffs are a part of that and prices are critical, and we will act in weeks rather than months.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

Is it the Government’s intention to stop energy companies offering predatory deals, usually only over the internet, to just some customers at the expense of the majority of others, who do not switch as often?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard what I said earlier about the number of companies declining but the number of tariffs increasing. That has caused confusion, at the very least, and part of the process needs to be about greater clarity and explicability, very much in the terms he describes.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

To make things as clear as possible, is it the Government’s intention to bring forward legislation specifically to put all customers on the lowest tariff? A yes or no answer will be sufficient.

[Mr Hayes]

A yes or no answer would be insufficient to deal with the hon. Gentleman’s question—indeed, it would be almost an insult to him to reduce my answer to that level. Let me be plain, though: the Energy Bill will be used, as the Prime Minister said, as a vehicle to get people the lowest tariffs. We will look closely at the best means of doing that over the coming days and weeks, and the hon. Gentleman will be as excited as the rest of the House when those proposals are published.

[Mr Speaker]

I am most grateful to the Minister of State.

[Hon. Members]

More!

[Mr Speaker]

I think it is a fair summary to say that the House has enjoyed the scrutiny process over the past half hour.

Business of the House

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

11:03

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House please give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

Before I turn to the future business of the House, may I take the opportunity to say, on behalf of the House, with what sadness we learned of the loss of two of our colleagues. We continue to send our sympathies and condolences to their families and friends. Malcolm Wicks was an immensely liked and respected Member of the House, who served as Chairman of the Education Committee before performing very distinguished service in government. Sir Stuart Bell, also a much valued colleague, served this House in many capacities over a number of years, not least as Chairman of the Finance and Services Committee and a member of the House of Commons Commission. Both colleagues will be sorely missed.

The business for next week is as follows:

Monday 22 October—General debate on Hillsborough. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister plans to make a statement on the EU Council.

Tuesday 23 October—Motion to approve a financial resolution relating to an HGV Road User Levy Bill, followed by motion to approve a money resolution on the Prevention of Social Housing Fraud Bill.

Wednesday 24 October—Opposition Day [7th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on the police. The debate will arise on an Opposition motion.

Thursday 25 October—Presentation of a report by the International Development Select Committee: DFID’s work in Afghanistan. This is expected to last 20 minutes. It will be followed by a debate on a motion relating to the badger cull. The subject for this debate has been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 26 October—Private Members’ Bills.

The provisional business for the week commencing 29 October will include:

Monday 29 October—Second Reading of the Public Service Pensions Bill.

Tuesday 30 October—Second Reading of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill.

Wednesday 31 October—Consideration of Lords amendments to the Local Government Finance Bill, followed by motion to approve European documents relating to EU budget simplification and the multi-annual financial framework.

Thursday 1 November—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 2 November—Private Members’ Bills.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 22 and 25 October and 1 November will be:

Monday 22 October—A debate on the e-petition relating to children’s cardiac surgery at the East Midlands congenital heart centre at Glenfield.

Thursday 25 October—A debate on the Work and Pensions Select Committee report on Government support towards the additional living costs of working-age disabled people.

Thursday 1 November—A debate on the Transport Select Committee report on air travel organisers’ licensing reform, followed by a debate on the Transport Select Committee report on flight time limitations.

Colleagues will also wish to know that, subject to the progress of business, the House will rise for the Christmas recess on Thursday 20 December 2012 and return on Monday 7 January 2013. We will rise for the February recess on Thursday 14 February 2013 and return on Monday 25 February 2013. The House will rise for the Easter recess on Tuesday 26 March 2013 and return on Monday 15 April 2013. We will rise for the Whitsun recess on Tuesday 21 May 2013 and return on Monday 3 June 2013. The House will rise for the summer recess on Thursday 18 July 2013 and return on Monday 2 September 2013—I can see that this is the way to attract the attention of the House, Mr Speaker. The House will rise for the conference recess on Friday 13 September 2013 and return on Tuesday 8 October 2013. The House will rise for the November recess on Tuesday 12 November and return on Monday 18 November. Finally, the House will rise for the Christmas recess on Thursday 19 December 2013 and return on Monday 6 January 2014.

To remind themselves, colleagues may pick up a handy pocket calendar from the Vote Office.

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and for announcing the recess dates for the forthcoming year, which is always very convenient for Members of the House.

I thank the Leader of the House and join him in paying tribute to my two colleagues who recently passed away. Malcolm Wicks was elected to Parliament at the same time as me, in 1992, and had a distinguished career in government; he was also a deep thinker on family policy. Sir Stuart Bell was a Member of this House for almost 30 years, and during his long career he served with distinction, not least on the House of Commons Commission for more than a decade. They will both be sorely missed.

May I also thank the Attorney-General for his statement this week on Hillsborough and for producing clarity ahead of next week’s debate? It has been welcomed by the families and warmly welcomed on both sides of the House.

Yesterday’s Order Paper stated that there would be questions to the Prime Minister at noon. It is not explicit, I admit, but the assumption under which Members have always operated on such occasions is that the Prime Minister will actually answer the questions he is asked; he cannot simply throw his toys out of the pram and refuse to answer a question from an hon. Member. But that is exactly what he did yesterday, rather conveniently. Therefore, will the Leader of the House have a go at answering the questions that the Prime Minister refused to address: why did we discover this week that secret correspondence between the Prime Minister, Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson was not disclosed to the Leveson inquiry, and will the Prime Minister now surrender all that material to the inquiry that, after all, he set up?

Following the utter chaos caused by the Prime Minister making energy policy on the hoof during yesterday’s Prime Minister’s questions, we had hoped that our urgent question this morning would improve clarity and restore some sense to the situation amid soaring energy bills. Given that it so obviously did not and that the Government’s policy is now a shambles, may we have a further statement so that we can establish what on earth the Government’s policy on low-energy tariffs now is?

In his botched reshuffle, the Prime Minister appointed the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) as a roving Minister. It appears that the Education Secretary also considers himself to be a roving Minister, as he has announced that he would vote to leave the European Union in a referendum. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] He is obviously gathering support from the Conservative Back Benches, perhaps for a leadership bid. It was then reported that a third of Cabinet members agree with him, so will the Leader of the House tell us whether he is one of them? May we have a debate on European policy following the European summit, rather than just a statement, to give Conservative Cabinet Ministers who want to sound off a forum in which to do so? They do not need to brief the media in secret; let them come to the House and tell us what they really think.

On Tuesday I received an invitation from the Bruges Group to a dinner marking the 20th anniversary of the Maastricht rebellion. It promised that there would be

“a rebel at every table”.

Sadly, diary commitments mean I am unable to attend what promises to be a fascinating occasion. Will the Leader of the House say whether the Work and Pensions Secretary—he was, after all, one of John Major’s backstabbers—will be attending to offer career advice to current Back-Bench Europe rebels?

The war in the Congo is the world’s deadliest conflict since the second world war. It is estimated that as many as 5 million people have died during the conflict—half of them children—from war, disease or famine. According to a United Nations report published this week, the Rwandan Defence Minister is effectively commanding a rebellion in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. On his last day in office, the previous International Development Secretary inexplicably reinstated aid to Rwanda despite the US, the EU and other major donors maintaining their suspension. May we therefore have an urgent statement from the current International Development Secretary to respond to the serious allegations being made about the case?

As the Leader of the House has announced, next week there will be an Opposition day debate on the police. There is a long-standing convention that Chief Whips should be seen but not heard. The current Government Chief Whip, who inexplicably is not in his place, would be well advised to observe that convention outside the House as well. We know the police’s account: they report that the Chief Whip said that police officers were “plebs” who should “know their place”—I have missed out the expletives. The Chief Whip keeps changing his story. Had he had the courtesy to the House to attend today, I would have said that he should come to the Dispatch Box and tell the House what he actually said, but perhaps he is too busy repairing relations with Conservative Back Benchers to bother attending business questions.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her opening remarks. I am not sure that she was listening to the Prime Minister yesterday, not least in relation to his clear and robust answer on our support to Rwanda and the reasons it is being given. He was absolutely clear that we are making clear to the Rwandan Government our opposition to any intervention on their part in the Congo. It is always tempting not to reply to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), but let me be absolutely clear that the Prime Minister gave the Leveson inquiry all the information requested.

The shadow Leader of the House was sitting in the Chamber this morning when the urgent question received the reply that was required, so her remarks are astonishing. It was made very clear, and more than once, as the Prime Minister said, that we will bring forward the Energy Bill shortly and legislate so that people get the best possible tariff. That is exactly what the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), said and what the Prime Minister said yesterday.

The hon. Lady asked about European debates. I remind her that we will indeed have a European debate in this House on Wednesday 31 October, as I have just announced as part of the provisional business, on a motion to approve European documents relating to EU budget simplification and the multi-annual financial framework. That will give an opportunity, in addition to the Prime Minister’s statement on the EU Council, for Members to debate the future of EU budgets. That is from a Government who are determined to ensure that we do not see increases in the EU budget of the kind we saw in the past and, still less, increases in this country’s contributions, such as those that followed the former Labour Prime Minister’s giving up the rebate that this country had enjoyed.

The hon. Lady asked about my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip. He is doing his job and doing it well. He is now in his place, but he also has many other duties elsewhere in the House. He knows, as he has made clear, that he made a mistake. He apologised for it, and the police officer concerned and the Metropolitan police accepted that apology. I will take no lectures today, or indeed during next Wednesday’s Opposition day debate on the police, about the support this Government give the police. In my constituency in Cambridgeshire we are seeing an increase in the number of police and additional police are being recruited. For my part, as someone whose brother was a senior officer in the Metropolitan police and whose niece and her husband are officers, I support them. We support them and will continue to do so.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Clearly, we have a very light legislative programme this year. Rather than regretting that, should we not rejoice in it? After all, in the past 30 years, in which we have had large overall majorities, so much legislative rubbish has poured through this building, imposing more and more rules and regulations on people. Should not our motto be, to adapt Lord Falkland’s dictum, “When it is not necessary to legislate, it is necessary not to legislate”? Is that not a good motto for this Conservative Government?

[Mr Lansley]

I think that is always a good motto to pursue, but from our point of view it is sometimes necessary to legislate. That is what we are doing, not least in the progress that we have already made on the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill, and also with the publication today of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill and the Bill relating to HGV road user levies. We are taking further measures that will promote growth and the development of infrastructure in this country, getting us the growth that we know is an absolute necessity, alongside deficit reduction, for improving our competitive position.

When the Leader of the Opposition is out marching with the TUC and it is saying that it wants long-term economic progress but does not think that political leaders today are offering that, he might reflect that that is exactly true in relation to him—that the Labour party’s leadership are not addressing the long-term economic problems of this country, they are denying the deficit and they have no policies for growth. We in the coalition are putting forward those policies for growth.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House allow me to record my thanks to the many people who have made my job so simple during the 29-plus years that I have been in the House? I am thinking of the Clerks of the House and those who clean for us and staff the cafés and bars to make our lives straightforward.

I also offer my thanks and appreciation to colleagues on both sides of the House—more enthusiastically to some than to others, perhaps—for being part of the enormous privilege of serving my constituents in Stretford and Manchester Central over those years, in what is still a wonderful and great experiment in representative parliamentary democracy.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Members on both sides will appreciate not only his sentiments, but how he expressed them. I share in that and know that the staff of the House will appreciate it too.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

The Leader of the House will be aware of the heroic efforts of Portsmouth supporters trust in its quest to enable its community to own its club. It has often had to do battle with football governance rules that are not fit for purpose—not least the “fit and proper person” test, which is less rigorous than a five-minute session on Google. Given the importance of the national game to our communities, is it not time that we debated the reform of football governance and finance?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes an important point. I am aware of how she has supported the Portsmouth supporters trust’s trailblazing bid, and I very much appreciate the sentiments that she has expressed. The Government share her view that we need to impress on the football authorities the need for stronger scrutiny of clubs at all levels and transparency about ownership. She will be aware of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee inquiry into football governance. I would be happy to refer the matter to the Sports Minister; she might also talk to him about the issue. There may be an opportunity, not least in light of the Committee’s inquiry, for the matter to be considered by the House.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Hundreds of thousands of people have signed e-petitions, which resulted from the system that the Government launched last year. Unfortunately, that number does not translate into people’s being satisfied with the system. To avoid further frustration and anger among those who use the system, will the new Leader of the House work with the Backbench Business Committee to see whether we can bring the system into Parliament, as suggested by the Procedure Committee in the last Parliament, to make the system the success that it ought to be?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. It is indeed right that, under the coalition Government, not least through the e-petition system and the Backbench Business Committee reform, we are improving opportunities for public engagement. Those are being taken up and they are demonstrating their potential. In so far as there is confusion, we just have to work through it. I entirely understand the hon. Lady’s point. We will, of course, work together. I look forward to working with Opposition Front Benchers, the hon. Lady’s Committee and the Procedure Committee to ensure that public engagement, not least through the new e-petition system, is as good as we can make it.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

In the Ministry of Defence there appears to be ignorance of Government policies on localism and supporting small and medium-sized enterprises. May we have a debate, or at least an oral statement from a Minister, about garrison radio? I am talking about local garrison radio services such as those in Colchester, Aldershot and Catterick. There is urgency because on Monday the Ministry of Defence is due to sign away those local radio stations to the British Forces Broadcasting Service, which hitherto has shown no interest in local garrison radio.

[Mr Lansley]

I am interested in what my hon. Friend has to say. I remind him that Defence Ministers will be here for questions on Monday. He may find that to be the earliest, and therefore most appropriate, opportunity to raise the matter.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I am delighted that the Prime Minister is going to be here on Monday because I have a question that I would like to ask him; with any luck I will manage to catch your eye, Mr Speaker.

May I ask the Leader of the House about the House business committee? The coalition agreement guarantees that that will be in place by the third year of the coalition Government. Many of us thought that meant by the beginning of the third year, but there are now only 18 Thursdays before the end of the third year. Will the Leader of the House scotch rumours, multiplying by the day, that he is trying to prevent the committee from coming into being?

[Mr Lansley]

I will simply repeat what I said, I think, at business questions last time around. It is a matter of weeks since I took up this post and I am absolutely clear about what the coalition programme has said about the introduction of a House business committee in 2013. There are no grounds for any rumours, but I will make it clear that there have already been important developments, not least the Backbench Business Committee, which is enabling the House to exercise more control over business; that is a very positive step, and my intention is to understand how that is being developed and ensure that we can develop it further.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

May we have a debate on NHS waiting times? Figures out today show that waiting lists have fallen to new record lows, with 95% of patients being seen within 18.6 weeks and the number waiting over a year also declining to a record low. Such a debate would allow Members on both sides of the House to put on the record their appreciation for the hard work of NHS staff.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. Not only the figures published today but also the document published today, which summarises the performance of the NHS in the first quarter of this financial year, through to the end of June, demonstrate that NHS staff are continuing to deliver continually improving performance. I heard Opposition Members show apparent disbelief about that; I remind them that when we came into office, more than 200,000 patients had waited beyond 18 weeks. We have brought that down by more than 50,000. Approaching 20,000 people had waited beyond a year for treatment and we have brought that figure down to below 5,000. That is in addition to many other aspects of improving performance in a service that, on the latest data, has already delivered, in a year and a quarter, £7 billion of the up to £20 billion efficiency savings required and continues to deliver an overall financial surplus.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In the aftermath of the LIBOR scandal, we were told by the Chancellor and the Prime Minister in statements, debates and questions that changes could be made to the Financial Services Bill. Are we to take it from the current consultation on secondary legislation that the Government no longer plan to adjust or add to the primary legislation?

[Mr Lansley]

I direct the hon. Gentleman to what the Financial Secretary to the Treasury stated in a written ministerial statement to the House yesterday. That clearly set out the position.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

When we hold our debate on the police, I wonder whether we will be able to bear in mind this week’s report from Warwickshire police that levels of crime in the county are the lowest for six years. Will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating Chief Constable Andy Parker and his officers and agree that that means that the concerns of many officers about reforms to the service are unfounded?

[Mr Lansley]

I gladly join my hon. Friend in congratulating Warwickshire police. The reduction in crime is not least because of the Government’s focus on ensuring that we reduce bureaucracy, freeing up 4.5 million hours of police time in a year. That increases the proportion of police time involved in front-line duties, so that while we achieve the necessary financial performance for the police service, we also get more police providing front-line services, enabling us to continue reducing crime.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent debate on the risk to the lives of Londoners of the proposed closure of 17 fire stations across London, including the very important one in Clapham in my constituency? Does he agree that Londoners will just not accept that, and that there must be other ways of saving money?

[Mr Lansley]

I will, if I may, ask my ministerial colleague from the Department for Communities and Local Government to respond to the hon. Lady. I do not know of any plans for a debate on the matter, although the hon. Lady may want to seek an Adjournment debate about it.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I welcome the news that the Government are working with industry to make £1 billion available for leading science projects. Porton Down in my constituency has the potential to build on its reputation as a hub of world-class research. Will the Leader of the House make time for a statement on the outcome of the recent applications for the regional growth fund, which would enable the Minister to reflect on the merits of Wiltshire’s bid to have a science park at Porton Down?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am aware that he, Wiltshire council and the institutes and businesses in his area are working to bring together Wiltshire science university and to exploit what is one of the leading centres for science and life sciences. Because of my previous ministerial responsibilities, I am very well aware of the world-leading character of the work that is being done at Porton Down, not least under the Health Protection Agency. In response to his question, I hope that there will be announcements very shortly in relation to the regional growth fund, where we are seeing many projects coming through and further resources being put behind projects that will enable us further to exploit our leading position in science.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on sports sponsorship, with the ultimate objective of putting in place a fit and proper companies test for future sponsorship of major sporting events? I name the likes of Atos and Wonga—companies which, in my belief, are pretty dubious in terms of being in a position to sponsor major events.

[Mr Lansley]

As the hon. Gentleman knows from the business I have announced, I have no immediate plans to do that. If he feels strongly about this issue, he might like to promote it by way of an Adjournment debate or through the Backbench Business Committee. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), the Culture, Media and Sport Committee is looking at many of the issues relating to the governance of sport, and he might like to correspond with it too.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

There continues to be a lot of concern on both sides of the House about education funding. We know that this situation has not been established overnight but goes back many years. However, children in the poorest part of my constituency continue to receive hundreds of pounds less for their education than those in the wealthy part. May we have a debate on this important issue?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think he will recognise that under this coalition Government the pupil premium plays a vital part in ensuring that those who come from the most disadvantaged families and communities have education resources put behind them to enable them to achieve better results. That is particularly true this year because of the resources being made available for the catch-up premium for those in year 7. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary has set out proposals on the future of education funding that are still subject to consultation.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the place of plebs in society? The worst aspect of what the Chief Whip said to those police officers was that they should know their place, and such a debate would not only give him the opportunity to get on his feet and give us the truth about what happened but give those of us who consider ourselves to be plebs an opportunity to know exactly what our place is.

[Mr Lansley]

I explained in response to the shadow Leader of the House how I feel about this. It is all very well Labour Members trying to make political capital out of this, but we support the police. We are getting on with that job, and the Chief Whip is getting on with that job and doing a grand job in doing so.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

More or less everyone, whether opponent or advocate of the third runway, agrees that delaying the decision until after the election is both cynical and disruptive. Will the Leader of the House allow us time to debate the timing of the Davies review?

[Mr Lansley]

Clearly, my hon. Friend may seek opportunities for a debate, but it would be inappropriate for the Government to do so when we are in the midst of the further review undertaken by Howard Davies, which will provide an interim report next year and a final report in 2015. As my hon. Friend and the whole House knows, these are immensely complicated issues that it is not easy to resolve in a short period of time.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

This year in Manchester two people have been arrested, charged, prosecuted and imprisoned for abusing police officers, and in South Shields in the north-east of England an arrest has taken place for a similar offence. May we have a debate on policing, prosecutions and sentencing as a matter of urgency, as it is very topical?

[Mr Lansley]

I think that members of the public watching our discussion might wonder whether it would not be better for Members to devote themselves to the interests of their constituents and new issues rather than constantly trying to contrive new ways of returning to an issue that, frankly, was closed weeks ago. The Chief Whip apologised and that apology was accepted, and on that basis the matter was closed.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

May we have a statement from the Sports Minister on what is happening to deliver the Olympic and Paralympic legacy at community sports level? May I bring to his and the House’s attention the “Get Involved—Be Inspired” initiative, which organises events to get people involved in participating and volunteering, the first of which will be held at Lawnswood school in my constituency?

[Mr Lansley]

I am delighted to hear about how the Olympic legacy is giving rise to additional sporting activity in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I know that that will happen across the country, because the Olympic legacy is being followed up by my colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Communities and Local Government, and by Lord Coe. That is happening not only through activities such as the school games—which this year, for the first time, demonstrated the fantastic capacity for sporting participation across the whole school system; half the schools in this country took part, and back in the early summer I went to the Olympic park to see 35,000 children participating in the finals—but more generally, not least through the measures being taken by the Department of Health to encourage physical activity for every child, particularly at primary school level, so that when children are contemplating taking part in physical activity in later years they have a grounding that enables them to do so.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

Important though it may be to some people, could the Leader of the House justify why he has allocated six hours of debate in this Chamber to badger culling? Given all the issues facing the country and our constituents, is that really a priority for this Government?

[Mr Lansley]

I gently remind the hon. Gentleman that the allocation of time for a debate on the badger cull was made through the Backbench Business Committee and not provided by the Government.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The Welsh Language Act 1993, which was championed in this House by my predecessor Lord Roberts, has been diluted by the Welsh language measure passed by the Labour-Plaid Administration in the Welsh Assembly in 2011—a change that has resulted in significantly less protection for the Welsh language in non-devolved matters. May we have a debate in this House to reaffirm the principles of the 1993 Act, which are being diluted by the actions of the Labour-Plaid Administration?

[Mr Lansley]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, as will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. He and the Wales Office are addressing this issue and will continue to work with the Welsh Language Commissioner and with the non-devolved Departments and organisations to champion the Welsh language. I will further contact the Secretary of State and ask him to be aware of my hon. Friend’s comments and to respond.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

It is 18 months since the then Health Minister promised to make the allocation for my local private finance initiative hospital in St Helens available to the trust, but it still has not got its budget and is weeks away from being required to set one. May we have a statement on when funding will be made available to those trusts?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Ministers from the Department of Health will be here on Tuesday, when he may wish to raise that issue. Under this Government, we as Health Ministers for the first time addressed the problems created by the mismanaged PFI programme under the previous Government. We made it clear that where the problems were most deep-seated, not least in relation to the St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, we were prepared, on the basis of a good business plan, to give continuing support in order to resolve any problems.

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

During the recess I was pleased to visit two very important charities in my constituency: Myton Hospice and Guide Dogs UK. Both are involved in supporting some of the most vulnerable people in our society and rely on the good will and support of our communities. Will the Leader of the House commit Government time to a debate on the importance of charities and the impact that they have on our communities, so that we can better support them?

[Mr Lansley]

That is an important representation for the use of Government time and, indeed, Backbench Business Committee time. My hon. Friend makes a good point. Guide Dogs UK illustrates how a charity can provide something integral to the life of a community—something that enables people to realise their potential—without which the whole community would be so much poorer.

Last year our noble friend Lord Hodgson looked at how to reduce the impact of red tape on charities and voluntary groups and made 117 recommendations in his report, “Unshackling Good Neighbours”. We are looking to implement as many of those as possible and have already reported back on our progress so far.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

Could the Minister with responsibility for sport make a statement about not just the racist incident in Serbia the other night, but the appalling reaction of the Serbian Football Association, which said that nothing happened and that it is all the fault of the English black player and his team mates? The former Serb leader Karadzic is denying Srebrenica in The Hague and the Serb Prime Minister in Belgrade is denying the existence of Kosovo. What is wrong with the Serbs? Does the Leader of the House agree that their national and club teams need to be suspended for the rest of this season, until they apologise for the disgraceful racist statement? The PM has already condemned it and we now need action from UEFA.

[Mr Lansley]

I did not have the opportunity to see the England under-21 match, but I have seen the news reports and news footage of it. I absolutely share the right hon. Gentleman’s sense of shock at the events, as does the Minister with responsibility for sport, who has made it absolutely clear that what happened was unacceptable. Any kind of racist abuse is unacceptable. He has urged UEFA to act and to do so quickly and strongly in relation to any such unacceptable actions.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

The UK has become a net exporter of cars and is at the centre of automotive research. Some fantastic innovative work is taking place, as I have seen at Nidec SR Drives in Harrogate in my constituency. Could we have a debate about the manufacturing success of the automotive sector, specifically looking at what more could be done to support it and whether there are any lessons from its success that could inform other sectors?

[Mr Lansley]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. What he describes is part of an essential rebalancing of the economy. A million manufacturing jobs were lost under the previous Government as they neglected the industry in pursuit of the prawn cocktail circuit in the City of London. We now know that we have to have a balanced economy that enables us to pay our way in future. Nothing is more significant in that regard than our ability to promote competitiveness in manufacturing and exports. We have some world-leading manufacturing sectors. Vehicle manufacturing in this country has made tremendous strides forward. We have some of the most efficient plants anywhere in the world, and evidence from them must be used to inform how we can deliver advanced manufacturing elsewhere. The aim of the Government’s programmes through the Technology Strategy Board is to promote exactly that.

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

The Northern Echo reports today that Durham Tees Valley airport, which is a strategic transport hub in the north-east and my constituency, will not receive the regional growth grant that it applied for to help create 1,500 jobs. Could we have an urgent statement from the Business Secretary on the ability of the regional growth fund to deliver regional growth, especially when only £60 million has reached front-line operations?

[Mr Lansley]

On the contrary, I heard the Deputy Prime Minister explain to the House the day before yesterday how a very high proportion of regional growth fund moneys are now reaching projects and delivering the promotion of growth. I will, however, seek a response from the Business Department to the case raised by the hon. Gentleman.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the unacceptable practices of the banks in general and the Yorkshire bank in particular? It is treating its business customers in a most appalling manner, piling on unjustifiable costs and new terms, including a constituent of mine who has been a customer of the Yorkshire bank for 35 years and never missed a payment. When banks make risky investments that go wrong, surely they should stand the losses and not pass them on to their long-established, sound small business customers.

[Mr Lansley]

I will draw my hon. Friend’s important point to the attention of my Treasury colleagues. He may also like to raise it with the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which is considering such issues.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Earlier this week the Home Secretary made it clear to the House that she is seeking to opt out of all justice and home affairs measures in the European Union. She is playing hokey-cokey by saying that she may want to opt in again, but there is no guarantee that it would be possible to opt back into the EU arrest warrant. May we have a debate in Government time on this vital issue? I am worried about the effect that the absence of an arrest warrant would have on justice for the victims of those who commit a crime and flee to European countries.

[Mr Lansley]

I will consider the hon. Lady’s request. The Home Secretary’s statement was clear. Using the opt-out in the way she proposes will give us the leverage to get the kinds of measures, if we want to opt into them, that are in this country’s interests. The Home Secretary set out an excellent approach that will enable us to focus on what is in this country’s interests and to secure those interests.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House join me in paying tribute to the Dorset security services and, indeed, the armed forces for their part in ensuring that the Weymouth-based Olympic events were safe and went without incident? Could we have a debate on the efficiency of local resilience forums and the work of tier 1 and tier 2 responders? It was clear in Dorset that existing structures would not have coped and that extra measures, which have now sadly been removed, were needed to keep the games safe.

[Mr Lansley]

I will ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government to respond on the issue of local resilience forums and their effectiveness. I know from experience that they are being developed, enhanced and strengthened even now. I endorse entirely what my hon. Friend has said. I did not have an opportunity to visit Weymouth during the Olympics or Paralympics, but what I saw demonstrated that it was the most remarkable event. We are all grateful to the armed forces for their contribution to making it a remarkable success.

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

A motion that I tabled appears in today’s Order Paper and reads:

“That, in the opinion of the House, the salary of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Government Chief Whip) be reduced by £1,000.”

That equates to the amount for which the Chief Whip would be prosecuted for doing what he did. Surely that is worthy of debate.

[Mr Lansley]

I answered that question earlier. It is interesting that nobody on the Opposition Benches has requested a debate on employment. Given that we have seen a further reduction in unemployment and a dramatic improvement in jobs in the private sector in this country since the election, it is interesting that they want to pursue a party political point rather than an issue that is in this country’s interests.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

In recent weeks there has been a spate of burglaries in my constituency and in other parts of the country, targeting the Asian community in particular. The issue has been heightened by the fact that many safety deposit boxes, which used to be available in banks and in which people could store their jewellery, are no longer available. Could we have a debate on the importance of the availability of safety deposit boxes in high street banks, so that people can keep their valuables safe?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue that also affects the constituencies of other hon. Members. The Association of Chief Police Officers lead on burglary is due to meet banks to establish the extent of the problem caused by the closure of secure storage and to offer crime prevention advice, including, where appropriate, the use of home safes. Moreover—I know that my hon. Friend will fully endorse this—this is further evidence of how police and crime commissioners, following their election, will be able to address such issues so that police forces can respond to them as part of their operational priorities.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Prime Minister refused to answer a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for several weeks, the Chief Whip has struggled to answer questions about exactly what he said in Downing street. Is it time for a ministerial statement on ministerial answers?

[Mr Lansley]

No.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

I recently visited Graham Engineering, an excellent firm based in Nelson which specialises in the nuclear sector. It recently submitted an excellent grant application under the advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative. The proposal would create or secure a large number of jobs in my constituency, and support the supply chains in which they operate. I have raised the Graham Engineering proposal with a number of Ministers, but may we have a debate on supporting advanced manufacturing to ensure that such great firms continue to thrive under this Government?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that Graham Engineering and other firms in his constituency are appreciative of his support. That firm has put in a bid for funding under the advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative, which is one of the initiatives to which I referred earlier that support the competitiveness of industry. Those bids are being assessed. Ministers will play no direct part in that process. The independent assessment board will meet on 14 November to decide on those bids.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I strongly endorse the call from the shadow Leader of the House for a further Government statement on energy tariffs. The Leader of the House should not underestimate the degree of disarray that will be caused to the energy industry by the combination of the Prime Minister’s answer yesterday and the answer to the urgent question today. The matter needs to be cleared up now, because companies will not know what the Government expect them to do on social tariffs and fuel poverty. On all these important issues, we need answers in days, not months.

[Mr Lansley]

I do not share the hon. Gentleman’s view. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) answered the urgent question and made it clear that simplification and tariff reform will form part of the Energy Bill, enabling us to deliver precisely what he and the Prime Minister said we would do, which is to use legislation to get consumers the best possible tariff.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Two women who ran a business called Purple Mountain for many years recently lost the business due to a tendering process conducted by the Forestry Commission. May we have a debate on tendering processes, and will the Leader of the House ensure that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs meets me and the two business owners so that we can explain the terrible circumstances that they have had to endure?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman raises an issue of which I was not aware. I will contact my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and ask him to respond.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I am very hopeful because of what the Leader of the House has said about having an employment debate. May I ask him for an employment debate, specifically on the problem of Departments holding up decisions that affect the creation of jobs? Heath business and technical park in my constituency has a dispute with Manweb over electrical lines, which is holding up much-needed investment in jobs and housing. The Department of Energy and Climate Change is saying to me that it does not have the resources to make the decision quickly. It is many months since the matter went to DECC. If we cannot have a debate, will the Leader of the House intervene to remind the Department that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor want to ensure the speedy resolution of infrastructure and housing decisions?

[Mr Lansley]

I am encouraged by the hon. Gentleman’s support for a debate on employment. He might like to talk to his party’s Front Benchers, because so far this Session, including for the seventh allotted day, they have not sought one debate on employment. That is a great pity because, judging by what the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday, one would have thought that it was the matter with the greatest importance.

We need to debate employment because the figures are compelling: employment is up; there are more than 1 million more jobs in the private sector; we are tackling youth unemployment, not least through the youth contract; we are tackling long-term unemployment, not least through the Work programme, from which 693,000 people are already benefiting; and there has been a two-thirds year-on-year increase in the number of young people going into apprenticeships since the time of the Labour Government. Those are important things, but we are not complacent. There is more to be done and we are going to do it. A debate will help us to achieve that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Is the Leader of the House aware of the concerns of the more than 1 million shooting enthusiasts in the UK over Royal Mail’s decision to ban the postage of firearms and their parts throughout the UK? More than 1,000 comments from shooting enthusiasts have already been registered. Will the Leader of the House agree to a statement or a debate on this important matter, which will potentially jeopardise rural businesses and legal leisure pursuits?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful for that question. I cannot promise a debate or a statement, but I will seek a response from my right hon. Friend to the point that the hon. Gentleman rightly makes.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

A constituent wrote to me about the powers of the receiver under the Law of Property Acts. I forwarded the letter to the Ministry of Justice on 8 May. We chased it up on 19 July and my excellent caseworker chased it again on 24 August and 29 September. We did not get a reply or an acknowledgement. Will the Leader of the House please ensure that a Minister comes to the House to reassure Members from all parties that Departments will respond to letters from MPs in a timely manner and not leave it six months?

[Mr Lansley]

Across Government, it is always our intention to respond in a timely manner. I will talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about the matter that she raises.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

Further to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), I again ask the Leader of the House to persuade the Business Secretary to come to the House to explain the decision not to give a regional growth fund grant to Durham Tees Valley airport. I would like to know why the decision was leaked to the media and why the Prime Minister’s pledge of support to the airport from the Dispatch Box just a few months ago counts for nothing.

[Mr Lansley]

As I said, I will talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and secure a response to the issues that have been raised. The hon. Gentleman may wish to raise the matter at Business, Innovation and Skills questions on 8 November.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent debate on the sale of publicly owned freehold assets—the so-called family silver? In a written answer to me, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith) said that that information was not held centrally. Will the Leader of the House say how such matters are being audited and how there is accountability for this public money?

[Mr Lansley]

The House will remember that the gold was sold by a former Chancellor, losing this country £5 billion. From our point of view, not least following resource accounting, it is important that we use assets efficiently. It is the responsibility of Ministers across Government to ensure that they are aware of where they have freehold assets and to use them.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

In 1908, an organisation was set up to promote independent working-class education. It was called the Plebs’ League. Would the Leader of the House support an all-party parliamentary group whose purpose was to promote the principles behind that organisation once again?

[Mr Lansley]

I was not aware of that organisation, but I am happy to be advised of it. As is shown by the Workers’ Educational Association and the like, education is one of the routes of social mobility. That is something that this Government have focused on and we will continue to do so.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

Many Members have raised sports-related issues with the Leader of the House today. Will he consider having a general debate on sports matters, so that we can talk about Wonga sponsoring football stadiums? I am concerned that future sporting events, such as the rugby world cup in 2015, should be a great success. Does he agree that it is ridiculous that Leicester Tigers’ Welford Road stadium has been excluded from the list of venues for the rugby world cup in 2015?

[Mr Lansley]

I am not in the least surprised that sports issues have featured strongly in business questions, because the Olympics and Paralympics demonstrated the power of sport to inspire and enthuse people. I hope that we will follow through on that. Many of the issues that have been raised are about the governance of sport. I will discuss with my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Backbench Business Committee how we might provide an opportunity to discuss this range of issues.

Points of Order

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

11:59

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is the first week of our new sitting hours. Would it be possible for the Clerks to circulate to the Government Whips Office a short memo telling them that we are starting an hour earlier, so that the Government Chief Whip can be here for the start of business questions?

[Mr Speaker]

That is not a point of order, and it is not a matter for the Chair. I think the hon. Gentleman is intimately conscious of both those facts.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice on a serious matter—misinformation being provided by civil servants both to Members of the House and to members of the press and public. The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) raised that matter on Monday, but this is a different example. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills officials have said publicly that the commitments made in the Government response to a Select Committee inquiry have now been fulfilled, but they clearly have not been. They have also said that an independent pubs advisory system has been set up, but it has not. This is a very serious matter that needs to be properly investigated, because officials, as well as Ministers, need to be properly held to account. I seek your advice on how best that should happen.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, of whose point of order I had no advance notice. I make no complaint about that, but it is difficult to be certain as to the detail of how best the matter can be addressed.

I say to the hon. Gentleman that Ministers are responsible for the work of their officials. If he seeks to hold Ministers to account for information that is or is not being provided, he has the recourse of the Table Office and the opportunity to table questions. If he remains dissatisfied, I know that he is nothing if not persistent and indefatigable, and he can always seek an Adjournment debate on the matter. I hope that is a helpful and substantive response to his important point.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that the Government Chief Whip has been chewing for most of this morning, is it appropriate for masticating to be allowed in the Chamber?

[Mr Speaker]

I will not go into that. I would say only that quite a lot of noise has been heard in the course of the past hour, but the Government Chief Whip has been as quiet as a church mouse.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have five named day questions on the Order Paper for tomorrow, numbers 64 to 68, all to the Prime Minister and all following on from the question that was not answered yesterday. I know you said yesterday afternoon that you would be cogitating on the matter overnight, but previous Speakers have ruled clearly that written questions have to be answered on time and substantively. Can you also confirm that they actually have to be answered?

[Mr Speaker]

Yes. They should be answered; they should be answered on time; and they should be answered substantively. That requirement applies to all members of the Government.

Bills Presented

European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mr Secretary Hague, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mrs Secretary May, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, Mr Secretary Davey, Mr Secretary Paterson, Mrs Secretary Villiers and Mr David Lidington, presented a Bill to make provision consequential on the treaty concerning the accession of the Republic of Croatia to the European Union, signed at Brussels on 9 December 2011, and provision consequential on the Protocol on the concerns of the Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon, adopted at Brussels on 16 May 2012; and to make provision about the entitlement of nationals of the Republic of Croatia to enter or reside in the United Kingdom as workers.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 76) with explanatory notes (Bill 76-EN).

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mr Secretary Pickles, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Davey, Mr Secretary Paterson, Secretary Maria Miller, Michael Fallon, Nick Boles and Stephen Hammond, presented a Bill to make provision in connection with facilitating or controlling the following, namely, the provision or use of infrastructure, the carrying-out of development, and the compulsory acquisition of land; to make provision about when rating lists are to be compiled; to make provision about the rights of employees of companies who agree to be employee owners; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 75) with explanatory notes (Bill 75-EN).

Backbench Business

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

12:03

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House opposes the disbandment of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (2RRF); notes that 2RRF is the only infantry battalion being cut that was not initially due for disbandment on military grounds; further notes that 2RRF was instead caught by the Government’s additional criteria of only one battalion loss per regiment and no deletion of cap-badges, which has resulted in more poorly-recruited Scottish battalions being saved; further notes the social and economic costs of disbandment; and urges the Government to reverse its decision.

I shall start by thanking a few people. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting the debate, and I wholeheartedly thank all Members from both sides of the House who have supported our campaign, especially those who have signed the motion. I also thank the many hundreds of ex-Fusiliers who have participated in the march and lobby today outside Parliament in support of the motion, most of whom have been up since the very early hours of the morning and travelled long distances. Our thanks go to them, and most of them are in the Gallery. We wish them well and thank them for their support. I also thank the many other regiments that volunteered to march with the Fusiliers today. Their kind offer was declined, but their support was very much welcome.

I should perhaps single out one person. It is always unfair to do so, of course, but I would single out Colonel Brian Gorski and his team—they know who they are—for everything that they have done and for their support and tireless efforts. Finally, I thank the Serjeant at Arms and his office; Samantha Howlett, the ticket lady; and everybody else on the parliamentary estate who has engineered an administrative miracle by getting 400-plus Fusiliers into the House today and accommodating them so well.

Why this debate? Needless to say, I am very proud to have served as a Fusilier. As a regiment, we trace our ancestry to the 17th century, and we have won more battle honours than any other regiment in the British Army, including the Guards. We won more Victoria Crosses in the great war than any other regiment, and we completed more operational tours of Northern Ireland than any other regiment.

Looking forward, we perhaps need to remind everyone that the Fusiliers is one of the few regiments to have served in all the recent military campaigns, including both Iraq wars, Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Operationally, it is one of the most experienced regiments in the British Army. Our fighting record is second to none—that is undisputed, but it is not the subject of this debate. The subject of the debate is our contention that 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is the only infantry battalion to be cut for non-military reasons as part of the Army 2020 proposals.

We are told that the cuts were based on military logic, notably capability and demographic sustainability, yet answers to written questions, a letter from the Secretary of State and discussions confirm that 2RRF has a better recruitment record than other battalions that have been spared. In fact, in recent years 2RRF has one of the best recruiting records of any battalion, and indeed it was the best recruited battalion when the announcement was made.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

There was one person missing from the list of thank-yous at the beginning of the debate—the hon. Gentleman himself. I thank him for securing the debate and for the campaign that he has led.

This morning, the hon. Gentleman and I presented several petitions to Downing street, including one containing 10,000 signatures of people in Lancashire and Greater Manchester, collated by the Manchester Evening News. Does that not indicate not just the scale of support for the Fusiliers but the unhappiness at the way in which the decision has been made and the unfairness behind it?

[Mr Baron]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The strength of feeling has been illustrated not just by today’s march but by the number of people who have signed the petitions. There can be no dispute but that feelings run high on the issue, and I thank him and all other Members who have supported the campaign.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that Coventry and Warwickshire have been great recruiting grounds for the Fusiliers over the centuries. Does he agree that although we often praise our soldiers in the House, for a change we now have an opportunity to stand by our soldiers’ regiments?

[Mr Baron]

I completely agree. This is a clear opportunity to say that we stand side by side with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. At the end of the day, soldiers take orders, which is absolutely right. However, we are having this debate because we contend that 2RRF has been felled by political considerations, to save more poorly recruited Scottish battalions ahead of the 2014 Scottish referendum.

Let me be clear that I, for one, think that the cuts to the Army, and certainly their scale, are a big mistake. In this increasingly uncertain world, when many countries that are not necessarily friendly to the west are increasing their defence spending, I am really concerned about the scale of our cuts and about the ability of the Territorial Army, much as I respect it, to plug the loss of those regular battalions. I believe that no battalions should be cut, Scottish or otherwise, but if there are to be cuts, they must be based on military logic and not political calculation born out of the misguided view that it will somehow help to save the Union if we save more poorly recruited Scottish battalions.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his leadership of this campaign. Can we not find further evidence that the decision was not made on military grounds in the fact that it was not part of the Government’s initial proposals but was added later to take political considerations into account? Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

[Mr Baron]

I do, and I shall come on to that very point briefly in my speech.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

I have heard the hon. Gentleman say on a number of occasions that some of the Scottish battalions or regiments should have been disbanded. Is this not a time for mutual support rather than picking on Scottish regiments?

[Mr Baron]

Let us be absolutely clear about this. I do not believe that any battalion should be cut at all, and that is a fact, but if there have to be cuts, they must be based on military logic, not political calculation. The bottom line is that the figures provided in answers to written parliamentary questions about recruitment and retention and in the Secretary of State’s response to me clearly show that two Scottish battalions are undermanned—far more so than the equivalent in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. That is what we are discussing. Decisions should be based on military logic, not political calculation.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate him on securing the debate. Does he agree that, given the amount of money we are spending on foreign aid and our contribution to the EU budget, it is lunacy for the Government to put themselves in the position of having to make these difficult decisions? Is it not about time the Government reassessed their priorities and put defence of the realm at the top of that list?

[Mr Baron]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend, who is spot on. I shall come on to that point later. I for one, to answer the question from the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), am not pointing the finger at any other regiment. I am not asking for further cuts in the Ministry of Defence, but if the Government cannot make the right decision here and now about 2RRF, there is money outside the MOD budget, as my hon. Friend has highlighted, that could be used to reverse this bad decision.

If hon. Members will forgive me, I want to make a little progress before I take further inventions, as time is pushing on and I know that a number of Members want to speak.

The Government have been reluctant to justify their reasoning. In fact, getting information from the MOD has been like extracting teeth, and one can see why from the damning evidence that was eventually obtained. The House will remember that on 5 July the Secretary of State for Defence announced the Government’s Army 2020 proposals. As part of the proposals, five infantry battalions were earmarked for disbandment, one of which was 2RRF. The impression created in this Chamber—I and other Members were present—was that the decision was based in large part on military calculations of capability and sustainability, or, in other words, that military logic had prevailed.

Many of us know that 2RRF has not only a good recruitment record but sound demographics in its core recruiting areas. On 6 July, I tabled named day written parliamentary questions asking for the recruitment and manning figures for all battalions involved. Given that we had been told that the decision on which battalions were to be cut was in large part based on those figures, one would have thought that they would have been ready to hand. I did not get the answers until 3 August, a month later, when Parliament was in recess. While I was waiting, I pressed the Prime Minister and the MOD by way of e-mail and letter.

In my view, the initial response from the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), who was then Minister for the Armed Forces, skated over the logic and continued to suggest that the MOD had “used a methodical approach with objective criteria to select those battalions which had to be lost”, but did not tell us what those objective criteria were, despite the fact that I had specifically asked for that in my letter and questions.

I then finally received answers to my named day questions, comparing 10-year records of establishment and strength for each of the battalions being cut and the five battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. The figures were revealing; they clearly showed that two battalions from the Royal Regiment of Scotland had worse recruiting records by far. On 14 August, I met the Secretary of State and the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Peter Wall. On that very morning, after a number of phone calls from the MOD, I finally received a letter by e-mail from the Secretary of State. That letter finally admitted that on purely military grounds two Scottish battalions would have been axed. The letter clearly stated that 2RRF was the only one of the battalions being axed that was not initially earmarked for disbandment. In fact, the letter was quite specific. It made it very clear that the five least sustainable battalions are two battalions from the Royal Regiment of Scotland, one from the Yorkshire Regiment, one from the Mercian Regiment and one from the Royal Welsh Regiment.

The letter went on to explain that what did for 2RRF was the Government’s decision to limit regimental losses to one battalion each and to ensure that no cap badges were lost. The Government’s insistence that no cap badges are lost makes no sense when we think that, as Members will remember, only six years ago in 2006 four cap badges and six battalions were amalgamated to form the five battalions of The Rifles. That was held up as an example of best practice by many senior Army officers. The Government’s justification for capping regimental losses to one battalion also does not make sense or withstand scrutiny. Five-battalion regiments can more easily withstand the loss of two battalions, particularly if they are struggling to sustain them, than two-battalion regiments can withstand the loss of one. Single battalion regiments also find it harder to meet the operational flexibility required and to offer their officers and soldiers a varied and demanding career profile.

It is perhaps also worth nothing that contrary to Government assertions, no Scottish battalion is being cut. The letter made it clear that on military logic two should have gone, and we know that if the regimental losses had been limited to one battalion, one should have gone. However, the one that should have gone has not gone. All that has happened is that it has been reduced in size for ceremonial duties. No cap badges or colours will be lost north of the border.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and securing this debate. I am proud to say that the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, one of the bedrock regiments that form the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, was my dad’s regiment. He served in Palestine and north Africa before the war as a regular soldier and was captured in north Africa in 1940.

Some of my constituents are in the Public Gallery today. Messrs Spalding, Gannon and Allen are welcome to London for this debate—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Unfortunately, we are not meant to mention people who are in the Public Gallery. We can see that a good number of people are present, but we cannot get into mentioning individuals personally.

[Ian Mearns]

I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am afraid that the damage is done.

I have talked to colleagues in the regiment and note that the creed of the battalion includes the words:

“I will never accept defeat nor let down my mates or my regiment.”

We should take that on board as regards 2RRF.

[Mr Baron]

I completely agree. Once a fusilier, always a fusilier and despite the odds we will carry this campaign to the end.

I shall wind up shortly, as I am conscious that a number of Members wish to speak, but I must add that the letter from the Secretary of State was revealing in another sense. I have talked about history and recruitment, and some might say, “Well, that is history. What about the future?” The letter, however, cast doubt on the demographic sustainability of the regiment, which I suggest is utter and complete nonsense. The regiment recruits from the three largest cities in the United Kingdom: London, Birmingham and Manchester.

[Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)]

And Newcastle.

[Mr Baron]

Yes, and Newcastle. I could go around the country—Rochdale, Bury—but I am sure the regiment will forgive me for not listing every city, town and village. However, it certainly recruits from the three largest cities, and I will not forget Newcastle, of which I have many happy memories.

The letter from the Secretary of State was revealing because it omitted to mention London as one of the regiment’s recruiting grounds. How can the MOD talk about demographic sustainability if, in its list of what it considers to be the regiment’s regional recruiting grounds, it fails to include London, probably one of the key recruiting grounds? We should not forget that the headquarters of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is based at the Tower of London, yet London was conveniently forgotten.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Perhaps the Ministry of Defence had indeed forgotten that the regimental headquarters of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is distinctly in the Tower of London, which I think is in London.

[Mr Baron]

It is; my hon. Friend is quite right. [Interruption.] I am pleased that the Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), agrees. It is strange: we go through the recruiting regions of the whole country for the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, yet somebody forgot to mention London. That is absolute nonsense.

I love Scotland; I am married to a Scot and I believe in the Union. However, this is not the way to go about cementing that Union, and it is impossible to believe that the demographics of Scotland are healthier than for the three largest cities in the country, and the four largest counties—let me mention Newcastle again. Figures also confirm that for battalions exclusively recruited from a country, England has a population of 3 million per infantry battalion, against fewer than one million for Scotland.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

May I add my voice to those of other hon. Members who have congratulated my hon. Friend on initiating this debate? I assure him that when I became Defence Minister in 2010, I and my colleagues found it extremely painful to make these difficult decisions. One of the reasons we did so was that we inherited a budget deficit of £156 billion, and to retain the confidence of the international capital markets, something had to be done. We also inherited a £38 billion black hole in the finances of the Ministry of Defence, which has now been put right.

I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) a belief that there is an alternative. When in government I never said that there was no alternative—there is, and it is to reprioritise Government spending. In my view, we cannot justify spending ever more taxpayers’ money on overseas aid and cutting our armed forces. I recognise that my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces, carries responsibility for those matters, as did I. We had a real problem to face.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. This is a very important debate and a lot of Members wish to speak. It is going to be time limited, and interventions from both sides of the House must be shorter. I want to hear everybody’s contribution, not just certain ones.

[Mr Baron]

Briefly, if there have to be military cuts, I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) that they should be based on military logic, not political calculation. As he knows, he and I are at one when it comes to priorities and Government spending.

We should not be blind to the social costs of axing 2RRF. Not only will 600 soldiers find themselves out of work—many of whom are recruited from areas that do not have healthy employment opportunities—but there will be a knock-on effect on their families, on veterans and on local affiliated cadet organisations. Furthermore, if 2RRF goes, I suggest that Warwickshire will be the only county in England without a direct battalion link. We should perhaps remember that Field Marshal Montgomery was a Warwickshire fusilier, and his regiment became 2RRF.

[Bob Stewart]

Not Staffordshire?

[Mr Baron]

We will argue about that later; we are all claiming Field Marshal Montgomery. [Interruption.]

Looking at the bigger picture, and to follow the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), I have severe doubts about the extent of the cuts to the Army and our armed forces generally. We must never forget that the first duty of Government is to national security. As the Foreign Secretary reminded us:

“The range of threats and dangers is, if anything, increasing.”

Many countries, not necessarily friendly to the west, are increasing their defence spending. Much as I respect the Territorial Army, having been on operations with it, I question the extent to which we are asking it to step up to the plate and plug the gap left by the loss of regular battalions. I am sad to say that the coalition Government continue to cut. Defence spending has halved over the past 20 years, and it continues to decrease.

I suggest that our relationship with the United States is a process of give and take and is not free. It is based on shared values and a close working relationship on nuclear and security issues, and it is underpinned by our military capability. These are austere times, but given that the first duty of Government is to national security, I suggest that money could be saved in other areas.

I am not suggesting that the Government do the right thing within the MOD budget; I have made it clear that I am not pointing the finger at other regiments. I am saying that we need to reprioritise our spending. I, for one, have trouble with all the extra billions of pounds that we are sending in our contribution to the EU budget. I also have a problem—I know this is unfashionable but I will say it anyway—with sending £1 billion in aid to India, a country with its own space, nuclear and rearmament programmes, an aircraft carrier, and its own aid programme. We are, in effect, subsidising those programmes, which I think is wrong.

In conclusion, the Government are wrong. Military logic and not political calculations should determine Army cuts. I am a firm believer in the Union, but this is not the way to achieve it. In my view, the Government’s culpability is illustrated by their reluctance to justify their decision, and the evidence has been damning. That was illustrated by a freedom of information request that I submitted on 6 September, asking for the first draft of the Chief of the General Staff’s recommendations as to which battalions should be cut. I received the answer late last night, saying that that they will not release that information. I ask the Government to think again and reverse the decision to axe 2RRF. I am not calling for any other battalions to be cut, just for this very bad decision to be reversed.

12:28

[Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Let me say at the start that despite the dulcet tones hon. Members are listening to and the agreement across the House there should be few or no cuts across England and Scotland, I have an English constituency and am therefore an English Member of Parliament—except, of course, when we are playing football.

Since this decision was announced in July, a large number of constituents have contacted me, asking me to speak in defence of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. As part of the Fusilier family, the Lancashire Fusiliers recruit heavily from my constituency, and other constituencies across Lancashire. It was in July this year that the Secretary of State decided on these heavy cuts to the regular Army, which included the dismantling of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. That is happening at a time when the world is very unstable, so the cut is serious.

May I convey the feelings and views of my constituents? I will not name them, but present in the Gallery are a representative of the reserve armed forces, the chairman of the Lancashire Veterans Association, and a number of other people from my patch. They told me first hand this morning that they are very proud to be taking part in the first march on Parliament since soldiers demonstrated in the Bishopsgate mutiny of 1649, when 300 members of the new model army protested against Oliver Cromwell’s orders to send them to Ireland.

This is also the first time that the British Army has taken to the streets in protest—I met some of its members—since it was formed in 1707. That year is famous for the union of the Parliaments, so it could be said that it was around that time that my ancestors became British. Hon. Members will no doubt hear throughout the debate of the regiment’s illustrious history, but more recently the Fusiliers were the first regiment into Iraq, fought the longest battle in Afghanistan, and have had more service in Northern Ireland than any other regiment.

The Ministry of Defence website states:

“The Second Fusiliers are a superb, operationally hardened Light Role Infantry Battalion”,

but 2RRF is the only infantry battalion to be cut for political rather than military reasons.

[Ian Mearns]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, which I want to magnify. Exactly what type of battalion should we keep in this day and age other than battalions that can, as the Army website states,

“deploy quickly and adapt to any operational scenario”?

[Jim Dobbin]

My hon. Friend makes the point very clear and I agree with him.

As the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) has said, 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is the only infantry battalion to be cut for political rather than military reasons; otherwise, the more poorly recruited Scottish battalions would have been axed. In my view, that is outrageous. Is it prudent to interfere politically with the collation of Future Force 2020 with regards to the Army?

[Mr Jim Cunningham]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one way to thank the Army and the Fusiliers in particular is to reinstate the battalion? That would be a big thanks to the Fusiliers for all the service they have given to this country over the past 400 years. Instead, we have redundancies, and all the social consequences of that.

[Jim Dobbin]

That is the real subject of the debate. Our armed service personnel are the nation’s mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters, and political interference brings extra risks.

May I thank Mr Speaker for allowing this open debate, which is an opportunity to put the right alternatives forward? Members of Parliament can simply encourage the Government to remove additional criteria to limit regimental losses to one battalion or even fewer, and that no cap badges should go. If there are to be Army cuts, military capability and sustainability should be the key determinants. Please, I beg the House to ensure that 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has its rightful place in future forces beyond 2020.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Because of the number of hon. Members who wish to speak, we have to put an eight-minute limit on speeches.

12:34

[Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)]

As a platoon commander, company commander and a commanding officer, it was my pleasure to service alongside 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalions the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I found it a splendid and gallant regiment that was always ready to face the Queen’s enemies. It should not be cut, and neither should any other regiment of British infantry, cavalry, artillery or sappers. Of course cuts have to be made, and defence is not an exception. We are in difficult times and were left with an appalling legacy that must be cured, but not at the expense of those who defend this country.

I shall expand on the political nature of the decisions later in my speech, but the overall design is not political but military—it is made by senior officers. That is why I was so surprised when the Secretary of State for Defence came to the House and not just announced the regiments that would lose a battalion, but specified the battalions. That shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of how the regimental system works.

I compliment my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), and thank the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Jim Dobbin), whom I rudely failed to thank following his speech. It is not just Warwickshire that has lost its regimental representation; Staffordshire, Derbyshire and a number of other counties no longer have a regimental link and a regimental cap badge to wear.

I question why those decisions were made. Let us take the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers as an example. The Fusiliers are immensely adaptable. In its time, the regiment has been called the East Devonshire Regiment. The 7th Regiment bore the title “Derbyshire”. It adapted and overcame, and were reconfigured again and again to the demands of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

The current document, “Transforming the British Army”, which was published in July 2012, says that the formations of the British Army are to be based on infantry battalions. In my day, they were based on armoured units, and largely on tanks, because we faced a different sort of threat, but things have changed. The leading arm is now infantry. I quite understand that, and as an ex-infantry man I applaud it, but the point is adaptability. The face of war has changed, and the very arm chosen to lead our combat arms is being cut to the bone in an illogical fashion.

I am interested in the regimental system. “Transforming the British Army” refers to structural changes and states that the fewest number of cap badges that can sustain the regimental system should be lost from across the Army, and yet in May, the Secretary of State said:

“The ancient cap badges have largely gone—they are attached in brackets to some unit names. I can’t say to you that there will be no loss of battalions in the infantry as we downsize the Army. We are looking at the options.”

Which is it to be? Are we maintaining the regimental system or are we scrapping the ancient cap badges?

Just a few short years ago, under the previous Government, it was explained that our infantry structures would be changed in such a way that there would be no more single battalions left in the Army, with the exceptions of the five battalions of Guards and the one battalion of the Royal Irish Rangers, which is now the Royal Irish Regiment. It was explained that single-battalion regiments were not sustainable, and that the careers of non-commissioned officers and officers depended on there being at least two battalions—possibly three, and, better still, five—in every regiment. How have things changed in the last 24 months to such an extent that we are prepared to reduce a well recruited, sustainable and fighting regiment such as the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers to one battalion? Similarly, the Royal Welsh Regiment, the Yorkshire Regiment and the Mercian Regiment will lose sustainable, capable, fighting battalions. It is a disgrace. It is a disgrace that makes no sense, and a disgrace that is based on ill judgment and ignorance among both politicians and senior officers.

We simply cannot have our fighting forces cut at a time when the world is unstable. It strikes me as utterly illogical. People have simply not opened their history books and seen that every time this country cuts its forces, we are immediately met by another drama. Where do I start? The Korean war? The Crimean war? I could give any number of historical examples, which I know you do not want me to do, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will only say that most recently we cut HMS Ark Royal and our Harrier fleet, yet within days—days!—we needed both. My own regiment was scrapped in the 1960s, yet was needed within weeks, when the Northern Ireland crisis exploded in a way that we could never possibly have imagined.

This is an act of extreme short-sightedness. Money can be found from elsewhere to sustain our combat arms. If that money has to come from within the military system, let us not cut combat arms. Let us cut the endless number of senior officers, cooks, bottle washers, signallers, computer operators, drivers, batmen and bootblacks who support our Army today. We cannot have this. These battalions are precious, and if I hear one more plaintive voice raised about recruiting, I think I will be sick. When I commanded an infantry battalion, albeit some time ago, I was told that it was impossible to recruit from below the minus 40 I had in my battalion, but within six months we were plus 120. We had a spare company. When I was told that it was impossible to recruit in Scotland, I pointed to the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, which raised an extra squadron in next to no time.

We are now looking at taking away the current recruiting system and replacing it with a civilianised system. This is wrong. We have had defence cut after defence cut after defence cut. Before we know it, our old, proper, sensible and fighting regiments will disappear forever. The Fusiliers and the others must be spared for the sake of the nation.

12:42

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who has defended the motion so eloquently.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee and congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing this important debate. He has worked extremely hard over the past few months on behalf of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers and its supporters, and has drawn together MPs from across the House to forward the campaign. Had it not been for his exceptional effort, I do not think we would be having this debate today. Nor would we have witnessed the wonderful sight of 400 Fusiliers marching down Whitehall to join us in Parliament.

I give my full support to the motion, but in doing so I do not wish to slight our Scottish colleagues in the House or the brave soldiers who serve in the Scottish battalions. The motion serves to highlight the Government’s flawed strategic defence and security review, which sees 30,000 servicemen and women lose their jobs in cuts.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

I stand fully behind the retention of 2RRF, which is really important, but does my hon. Friend agree that the mention of the Scottish battalions does no favours to the motion? Had it not mentioned any other battalions, it would have been more comradely and in the right spirit, and would probably have garnered more support.

[Mrs Glindon]

The Scottish battalions are mentioned because of the unfortunately political manner in which the Government are carrying out the disbandment.

The cuts will not only cost jobs but cost people their careers, could result in thousands of ex-servicemen and women facing long-term unemployment, and in time could pose a threat to the security of our nation. In the north-east, 200 soldiers will lose not only their jobs but, as I have said, the careers they have trained hard for and of which they are rightly proud. Soldiers from the north-east have a long history of service in the British Army. During the first world war, the Northumberland Fusiliers raised more battalions than any other in Britain—52—and in those days a battalion was more than 1,000 strong.

Today, the north-east still provides more soldiers for the Army than any other region in the UK, so it is no surprise that, when the Secretary of State announced the disbandment, veterans, the public and politicians joined the campaign to make the Government see the unfairness of their actions.

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

rose—

[Mrs Glindon]

I give way to the hon. Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) first.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I was probably going to make the same point as the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). I was honoured to be a company commander in the then X company of the Northumberlands. I totally agree with what the hon. Lady says. The Northumberland Fusiliers had more battalions because it recruited from the strongest recruiting area almost in the country. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) mentioned the situation in Newcastle. Does she agree that the Fusiliers must continue to survive, because of their strength at all levels? The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West will probably say exactly the same thing.

[Mrs Glindon]

I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson).

[Mrs Hodgson]

I was going to make a slightly different point from the hon. Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger). The 200 Fusiliers who will lose their jobs will have 200 families, probably with many children, and in this time of restraint, with the double-dip recession and the high unemployment, especially in the north-east, we should not be making 200 people redundant and leaving them looking for jobs.

[Mrs Glindon]

Both those points strengthen the case for maintaining the 2RRF.

I have been proud to support the local campaign, which has received the kind support of the Newcastle Journal and the Evening Chronicle, which has been fantastic in helping to publicise the fight across our region. The veterans and the Fusiliers have played a massive role in promoting the campaign, and have organised two public events in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, which I have been honoured to attend.

It was at one of these events that the real impact of the Government’s decision hit home. I noticed among the honoured veterans and members of the public a young man standing particularly proud during the minute’s silence, in a way that no other civilian around him did. After the ceremony, as the crowds chattered and photographs were taken, I managed to speak to this young man. He told me that he had been a Fusilier, but that more than a year ago had had an accident and had to leave.

Fortunately, the young man has fully recovered, but he has not been able to find any work since leaving the Army. Shamefully, employers do not always seem keen to employ ex-soldiers. He told me that he would be eligible to re-apply to rejoin the Army in November, and that it was his greatest wish to resume his Army career in the 2nd Battalion. My heart went out to the young man and to all the other young people who, like generations before them, have wanted to serve their country in the military but who now have little prospect of ever being able to serve as full-time soldiers.

Former members of the Territorial Army are sceptical about the Secretary of State’s plans to replace full-time soldiers with an expanded reserve force. They gave me the example of the 6th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which had been a well-recruited and fully equipped, operational, NATO-role battalion, and which was recognised as one of the best in the country. The battalion was disbanded and became the Tyne-Tees Regiment in 1999, but it lost all its support weapons, which meant that associated skills were lost too. It now exists as the 5th Rifle Battalion, with only three companies and no support weapons. There is a severe shortage of officers and senior non-commissioned officers, and a lack of funding has meant no training and led to the deskilling of the battalion.

The fear is that disbanding regular units that are not immediately replaced by a reserve capacity creates a wide capacity gap—indeed, a gap in our entire national security. The campaign is clear in its aims. The 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has no trouble recruiting in London, Manchester, Birmingham or the north-east, as has been said. It is currently at full strength. The regiments that the Government are choosing to save have to recruit largely from foreign and Commonwealth troops. Our Government have said they are committed to British jobs for British people. Clearly in this instance they are not. The campaigners and supporters of the motion know that this is not a fair decision.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

I should point out that the recruitment of foreign and Commonwealth troops took off under the last Government. There was a deliberate policy to recruit up to, I think, 10%. I should say that those troops do a very good job, most of them, and I pay tribute to them, but I do not think the hon. Lady should accuse us of in some way being illogical in this regard.

[Mrs Glindon]

I do not think I mentioned the Minister being “illogical”. The point is that those battalions are poorly recruited and have to go abroad, when in 2RRF we have the strength of the Army being made up from people who are local, as is the regimental tradition.Moreover, I would point out to the Minister that there has been criticism of the decision from top-ranking figures, who state that the abolition of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers will not stand up to public scrutiny.

I stated at the beginning of my speech that the motion is not against the brave Scottish soldiers, which is true. However, in the north-east there is a fear that the referendum on Scottish independence will see the Government favouring Scotland over the north-east, in order to keep Scotland in the Union. I do not want to see Scotland leave the UK, nor do I want to see my region pay any economic or social price to ensure that we maintain the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom must be fair and honest to all its people, in all its regions. However, if Scotland becomes independent, it is possible that such a small country will not be able to sustain five battalions, nor will the remaining UK be able to be properly served by the 25 remaining battalions.

In summary, the feelings of everyone who supports the motion are expressed in the words of Major Chester Potts:

“‘Quo Fata Vocant’ (Whither the Fates call) is the regimental motto of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. Wherever the fates have called we have been there and shed our blood in the defence of the country. We have fought the nation’s enemies for nearly 350 years now. We never expected our greatest enemy, and architect of our demise would be our own Government.”

12:53

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I welcome the work of the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) in securing this debate and leading the campaign. I do not think that there will ever be a cause in his parliamentary career that is dearer to his heart than this one, as an ex-Fusilier.

Alnwick in my constituency is the traditional heartland of the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, which is one of the parent regiments of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. In Alnwick, the red and white hackle is a familiar sight, especially on St George’s day. It was a particularly welcome sight on the streets of London this morning—so much so that it caused me to miss a question in the House, because I was with the large numbers of Fusiliers outside, whom we were so pleased to welcome here. The regimental museum is also in Alnwick. People in Northumberland, as in other parts of the country, have watched with pride as they have seen what are often frightening television shots showing members of the Fusiliers serving in so many of the increasingly televised conflicts that we have seen in recent years—in Iraq, Kosovo and Afghanistan, and of course on the streets of Northern Ireland as well.

The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is one of the best recruited regiments in the British Army, and the recruitment figures demonstrate that. That is what has led a number of us, such as the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay, to get into correspondence with the Ministry of Defence and with Ministers as soon as the decision was made. It appears from MOD figures that the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has consistently had the best recruitment record over the period that the figures cover, apart for the final year. It has the best track record on being at or near establishment over the last few years. Indeed, the Ministry of Defence admits that the figures for 2010-11 are artificially low, owing to a nine-month pause in infantry training, which affected regiments differently, depending on where in the year their training slots were in the infantry training centre programme. When that feature is added in, we see that the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has a superb recruitment record. That led us to pursue the matter further with Ministers and to seek a further response from them.

However, that response came in words carefully tailored by the Minister’s civil servants—the reply I received was from the Minister for the Armed Forces, who is in his place. He wrote to say:

“As I am sure you will appreciate this was a complicated piece of work and for this reason I am unable to provide the detailed information for recruitment catchment areas that you sought,”

although he then drew my attention to various websites where we could look at some of the sources on which the work was based, which we did. There were probably a number of mistakes in that work. I strongly suspect that the modern county of Northumberland was used in references to Northumberland as a recruiting area, rather than the county that stretches from Tweed to Tyne, which is the traditional Northumberland Fusiliers recruiting area, which also includes substantial urban areas. However, the letter went on to demonstrate quite clearly that the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers should not be one of the five battalions that go, saying:

“After the removal of four battalions, the method for predicting future sustainability became less statistically discerning.”

Let us think about that. I think it should win a “Yes Minister” prize for obfuscatory circumlocution—or, to put it another way, dodging the issue with fancy words. A little further, the letter says:

“Therefore to determine the fifth battalion to be removed from the order of battle required the application of criteria that went wider than demographics”—

in other words, “We told the officials to find some other reason which would enable us to disband the 2nd Battalion.” The letter continued:

“Historical manning performance and the need to maintain equity of opportunity meant that the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers…was the next appropriate regiment”.

What that “equity of opportunity” is I do not know, but it certainly does not apply to those who wish to serve in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in the north-east of England or the many other recruiting areas that have been mentioned today.

I also want to talk about the extraordinary consequence of creating a single-battalion regiment, which is in defiance of policy to date. In the last round of changes, under the previous Government, there was an explicit desire to get away from the idea of single-battalion regiments. For example, in his letter to the Chief of the General Staff, Brigadier Paterson, the Colonel of the regiment, sets out the position:

“During the last Options For Change the Army Board stated that large Regiments were the future for the infantry for all the well rehearsed arguments of operational capability and sustainability…What has changed for that policy to be reversed and for single battalions to be created deliberately?...Single Battalions fail to meet the criteria of sustainability…neither do they offer the variety and career opportunities of larger Regiments.”

We have been through the process of losing cap badges before in Northumberland, because my constituency is also the regimental headquarters of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers, which lost its cap badge when it was amalgamated with a less well recruited regiment—the Royal Scots—to form a battalion in the Royal Regiment of Scotland. Indeed, one of the arguments strongly used then was the argument against single-battalion regiments, yet here we are, creating one.

The other important consequence we must consider, which I would like to mention in the brief time available to me, is the consequence for the Territorial Army. In 39 years in Parliament, I have seen the TA in my area go up and down and up and down as changes of policy have led to changes in the extent to which use was made of the TA. We cannot do it like that, however, because that does not build up the core of officers and non-commissioned officers needed to run a really efficient TA. Remarkable things have been achieved, and TA soldiers have given wonderful service in regular units in all the conflicts that we have mentioned, but we are now expecting a major TA expansion without having the people in place to ensure that the necessary training and officer management are available for the increased force.

We all know why this decision has been taken. Political reasons took the place of military logic, and in such a blindingly obvious way that I do not know how anyone in the Ministry of Defence thought that anybody would be fooled by it. How did they imagine that nobody would spot what was happening a mile off?

[Bob Stewart]

May I put to my right hon. Friend the possibility that the decision was made not in the Ministry of Defence but in another street—namely, Downing street?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I am familiar, from my various spheres of work in the House, with the way in which missives from Downing street can bring about sudden changes in the development of policy, and it would be no surprise if evidence emerged that that had happened in this case. This is the wrong decision, for the wrong reasons and with the wrong results for the efficiency of the Army and the defence and security of this country.

13:01

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I also begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and the Backbench Business Committee on securing this debate. I also pay tribute to the Royal Fusiliers. As a Newcastle city councillor, I was always conscious of the tremendous contribution that they made, and I remember the well-turned-out serving and former members of the Fusiliers who attended the Remembrance Sunday events. As a Defence Minister, I also saw the tremendous work that they did on the ground in theatres such as Afghanistan. The hon. Gentleman mentioned their history of bravery, sacrifice and courage, and I concur with his comments on that. The Fusiliers remain a constant source of pride in the north-east, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) has said, as well as in Manchester, London and Birmingham. The local communities in those areas have great pride in the Fusiliers.

Our concern is that the decision to disband the 2nd Battalion the Royal Fusiliers derives from a rushed defence review and an inadequate Army reform plan, known as Army 2020. The basis of any review should be sustainability and value for money.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the way in which these matters should be decided. Will he cast his mind back to 2004, when he was a Defence Minister? A total of 19 battalions were closed or amalgamated at that time, and there was no defence review then.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman will remember that the decisions to make those changes were made by the Army during its restructuring. They were not made for political reasons; such decisions have been made for many reasons over many decades.

[Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)]

I must ask my hon. Friend not to fall into the trap that so many others have fallen into—namely, of setting one against another. We should all be arguing that a major mistake is being made, and that we cannot allow that to happen. If the regiment’s numbers fall below a critical mass, it will not be able to recruit when it needs to.

[Mr Jones]

Indeed, and the decision was budget-led, rather than being made in the best interests of the Army.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

I will not, because of the time limit.

The conclusions of any review should also take into account the long-term strategic objectives that will be in the interests of this country, but neither Army 2020 nor the strategic defence and security review did so. The SDSR was rendered out of date within weeks of being written by events in Libya, with equipment that had been scrapped weeks before being brought back into service. Army 2020 has got rid not only of some of the British Army’s best battalions, but of some of the bravest and most dedicated members of the armed forces. The Minister must explain what his criteria are, and how he is going to maintain the necessary skills, even though many have already been lost.

We are told that the numbers have to be cut, but I want to concentrate on the way in which that is being done. There was confusion this summer as the Government let the process linger on, allowing rumours and uncertainty to continue, mainly to save the Prime Minister the embarrassment of making this announcement before Armed Forces day. There have also been substantial cuts in the numbers of our armed forces personnel. Let us remember that, when in opposition in the last few years before the general election, the Conservatives were calling for a larger Army and a larger Navy with more personnel. They have achieved exactly the opposite since they have been in power. They are saying one thing and doing another. [Interruption.] I will come to the question of budgets in a minute, if the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) will just hold his water.

These decisions are resulting in the Government having a credibility deficit on defence matters, not only with the public but with our armed forces. It is no wonder that there is confusion. The planning assumptions in the SDSR were based on an Army whose manpower was 95,000. Will the Minister tell us whether those assumptions are still being achieved, now that the number has been reduced to 82,000? Will he also be precise about the time scale for the build-up of the reserves? It has already been pointed out that there could be a capability gap in that area. I pay tribute to the members of our reserve forces. It is not surprising to discover from the continuous attitude survey of the armed forces that morale is at an all-time low.

The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay talked about the criteria that had been applied when making the decisions. Serious questions need to be asked about how and why they were made.

[Mr Robathan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not. I would if I could get extra time—[Interruption.] No, I could not. I have already taken two interventions; those are the rules.

We are told that the units that were having the greatest recruitment difficulties would be abolished. The 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment was only six short of its full establishment, and the 2nd Battalion the Royal Fusiliers was only eight short. However, other battalions with much less favourable recruitment records were maintained. It is no wonder that the honorary colonel of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Fusiliers said that the decision to axe his battalion would not “best serve” the armed forces and

“cannot be presented as the best or most sensible military option.”

It has been pleasing to see the turn-out today outside Parliament, and I know the strength of feeling that exists in the north-east of England. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) has already mentioned the tremendous campaign being run by the Newcastle Journal and the Evening Chronicle. We are seeing the ad hoc nature of decision making in whole areas of defence. The fact that Ministers have announced further reductions, over and above the numbers proposed in the SDSR, shows the short-sightedness of their proposals. We said when the SDSR was produced that it was not a blueprint for our strategic future so much as a Treasury-led defence review.

I have already paid tribute to our reservists. The Secretary of State has said that the proposal to back-fill the Army with reservists presents a risk. The fact that the only announcement he has made so far is that he is going to change the name of the Territorial Army leaves questions unanswered. There has been no clarification on training, or on whether employment law needs to be changed, as is quite likely if people are to be released from their employment to serve in the armed forces. So there are still a lot of loose ends, and there will be a capability gap if we are not careful. It is quite clear that Government policy is about deficit reduction and not about what is in the best interest of this country’s defence.

I will touch on the thorny issue of budgets, because we are told that the cuts are justified because of the big, bad Labour Government who left the Ministry of Defence with a £38 billion black hole. From this Dispatch Box, I have repeatedly asked the Government to explain this. The Public Accounts Committee has asked them to explain it, too, but to date nothing is forthcoming. I will be happy to hear, when the Minister replies to the debate—

[Mr Robathan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not.

[Mr Robathan]

Why not?

[Mr Jones]

Because I do not have the time. I shall wait with anticipation for the first ever breakdown of this figure. As I was saying, this has been the justification for the cuts that we have seen. It is quite clear what has to be done: if we are to take these cuts, the Government must set the record straight and be honest not only with the British public but with our brave servicemen and women.

Historic battalions are being axed for short-term savings without any coherent strategy for our armed forces. We have no confidence that the abolition of battalions, such as the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is either in the best interests of the country or is being done on a fair basis. Until Ministers fully explain the criteria behind Army 2020 that justify the abolition of these regiments; until they clarify the reforms to the reserves and the rebasing of forces in Germany on which we still await explanation; and until they are more honest about the state of MOD budget—simply coming here to say that the budget is unbalanced is not good enough—it will be difficult for the Government to have any credibility on defence. More importantly, the people who are quite rightly campaigning against this decision will think that decisions have been taken in an ad hoc way, without taking into consideration the interests of either the 2nd Battalion or of this country’s defence.

13:12

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing this debate. He and my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) have made the case for the 2RRF in the context of the current review extremely powerfully. I am not entirely sure that they were wholly served by the arguments of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), whose assault on the supporting arms could be described only as unfortunate. I would have thought that he among others would understand that the armed services, the Army, depend on team work between the different armed services and between the teeth arms and all the supporting arms. They all have an extremely important role to play.

When on coming into office the Government were faced with financial stringency, decisions about the number of infantry battalions as opposed to arm or core regiments, as opposed to engineers, were among the wretched decisions that Defence Ministers then had to take. The point I am about to make is beautifully illustrated by the Public Gallery, which I have never seen looking more impressive. The Officers of the House deserve congratulation on imposing a little bit of discipline up there. If I were the Defence Minister, I might find it quite intimidating, but the view presented in the Gallery makes one think about the wonderful institution that we are discussing today.

Anyone such as me who has had the privilege of serving in the Army understands the essential element of regimental identity. I was lucky enough to serve during the 1980s when I was only training to fight and die alongside my colleagues. Tragically, since 1990, far too many times that training has had to be turned into reality. That is what the deliberate creation of identity within Army fighting units is about. When Ministers are faced with wretchedly uncomfortable decisions about how to reshape the Army as times change and as warfare and the balance between the arms changes, we run straight into the political difficulty surrounding issues of identity.

The Ministry of Defence and the chiefs of staff have attempted to put in place some basis for making choices, but the toxin in the issue has already been alluded to. As my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has explained, this decision has been about political calculation, not about military logic. I believe that these decisions have not been taken by the chiefs. I know from my own experience just how painful it is when one’s regiment is amalgamated. For those who have ceased serving—they, of course, will have spent 20 to 30 years in service—these issues will be at everyone’s heart. For those who are currently serving—their service is likely to be shorter—they will be concerned but they will turn to the right and get on with whatever organisation they are placed in, in order to do their duty for Queen and country.

Issues of identity, graphically represented here today, are incredibly important. I think that my hon. Friend has made his case when it comes to explaining how the decisions have been taken in this particular round. These are incredibly difficult decisions for the Minister for the Armed Forces and his colleagues, although the point has been made that we cannot be entirely sure that it was he who took them.

This brings us to the issue of national sentiment. I shall now do the strategic equivalent of invading Russia and China, and take aim at Joanna Lumley and the Gurkha lobby. I think it is a particular pity that we are talking about the disbandment of a British line infantry battalion when there are battalions of, frankly, foreign mercenaries still in our Army. The national sentiment attached to the Gurkhas is, of course, entirely proper. Their century-plus service to our country is beyond compare, but it is many senses now an historic anachronism. There in 100 years-plus of sentiment associated with them, which led to the then Government being defeated on a measure dealing with the Gurkhas in the last days of the last Administration.

[Mr Gray]

I strongly support the campaign and the debate, but I think it will be extremely unfortunate if we allow the failure of the Government to do their first duty to defend the realm by preserving our armed forces to descend into a battle between whether we prefer the Gurkhas, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, the Loamshires or whatever. We should be saying that the Army will be too small at 82,000 and that these cuts are unacceptable, as we cannot defend the realm as a result of them. We must not allow ourselves to set one regiment against another.

[Mr Blunt]

It becomes an issue about identity in the end. With parts of the United Kingdom such as South Yorkshire providing the recruits for the Fusiliers or the north-east providing recruits for the Light Dragoons and so forth, there is an important issue of identity and then of wider public policy in relation to having a recruiting regime in another country, bringing Nepalese soldiers into the British Army. That was fine when, frankly, the Gurkhas were cheap. They were paid less than their equivalents—their pensions cost less, too—and there was a deal. It meant that these soldiers went back to Nepal, highly trained to be really good citizens of enormous value to Nepal. We have changed the rules through sentiment. In my judgment, we now have the most expensive infantry in the British Army supporting a training organisation in Nepal, which is quite limited in what it can do in comparison with British line infantry whose future we are debating today. That poses real public policy problems that we should be brave enough to address; we need to be brave enough to work through the sentiment. Of course there is enormous sentimental attachment to the Gurkhas.

[Ian Mearns]

For the information of the House, much as I want to save the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, the Gurkha regiments have been recipients of the Victoria Cross on no fewer than 26 occasions. I think the hon. Gentleman maligns the Gurkhas with his words today.

[Mr Blunt]

I am not maligning them, and I am not maligning their historic contribution. I am acknowledging that contribution. However, our public policy is now to support the right of Nepalese families to come to the UK as a result of their service to the Crown.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

You voted for it.

[Mr Blunt]

Yes, I did, and I was wrong. I am happy to put on record that I regret it. One of the consequences is today’s debate, and another is the fact that we have done Nepal no favours by taking some of its finest people into the British Army and giving them the right to settle here as a result of their service. The British Army, which is a fantastic training machine, is taking some of Nepal’s finest young men, and they are not returning to Nepal to give it the benefit of their Army training. Moreover, we are probably building up social problems of our own, because the population who are coming into the United Kingdom with their families are going to find it tough to adjust to life here.

We have ended up with an expensive part of the infantry which is much more restricted in its employment than a British light infantry regiment such as the one that we are debating today, in the wake of a policy decision made on grounds of wholly understandable sentiment and for exactly the historic reasons alluded to by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), including its awesome contribution during two world wars and the Falklands war. It is our responsibility here to try to exercise proper judgments about public interest and public policy. We need to decide what is the right thing to do, and what is in the defence interests of the United Kingdom.

It is easy to be carried away by sentiment. If I did not think that my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay had made his case in support of the 2nd battalion, I would not be supporting his motion today, because battalions have to face disbandment. I will of course listen to what is said by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, but the fact is that we are having to trade off British tommies against Gurkha battalions because of national sentiment, and because decisions were made in Downing street for reasons that were political rather than connected with military logic. I can summarise the arguments presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay by saying that decisions such as this should always be based on military logic, not on political calculation.

13:22

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Let me begin by thanking the hon. and gallant Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for providing such strong leadership on this issue. It has been much appreciated. Let me also say that it is a delight to follow the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), who made some good and honest points.

I am very pleased to see Rochdale veterans down here in London, and in Parliament. That gives me great pride; and it gives me great pride to speak in the debate, because there are few, if any, more important topics than this on which a Member of Parliament can speak. I do not make that point lightly, for debating issues relating to our armed forces and speaking about the men and women who sign up to defend our country and our way of life is critically important.

As Rochdale’s Member of Parliament, I think it fair to say that few subjects for debate would take precedence over the subject of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Rochdale is sometimes associated with bad news stories, but one of the good stories about our town is its strong association with that regiment. Many of our young people join up with the Fusiliers, and it performs the important function of providing much-needed jobs in Rochdale.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just about jobs? In the north-east as well, the regiment gives young people—men and women—life chances that they would not have in the communities from which they come, and in many cases it changes their lives for ever.

[Simon Danczuk]

I entirely agree. That is particularly important in places such as Rochdale, where the level of unemployment is unhealthily high.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people throughout our town have served in the Fusiliers, and continue their association with the regiment. Through the Royal British Legion and the Fusiliers Association, we regularly celebrate the commitment and dedication of these soldiers.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on initiating the debate. As the only Northern Ireland Member present, I should like to record our thanks to the regiment for the work that it has done in Northern Ireland, for the distinction with which it has served, and also for its contribution to the peace process and where we are today, because it can take some credit for that.

A retired major who had served for approximately 20 years approached me and told me that this was a disgrace. The force that he had signed up to had promised to take care of him and his family when he put his life on the line for his country, and now, through Government policy, his country was abandoning those who had sacrificed their physical and mental health in fulfilling Government policy. It was not their choice to fight in various different countries, but they were commanded to do it and they did it. Does my hon. Friend agree with the question that they ask—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think that we have got the point.

May I appeal to everyone? A lot of Members are taking a lot of interest in this very important subject. If interventions are short, they will all be able to contribute to the debate. The longer the interventions, the less likely it is that we shall hear all who wish to speak, and I believe that it is important for everyone to speak.

[Simon Danczuk]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I think that it was also important for the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) to put his point on the record.

In 1947 Rochdale gave the Fusiliers the freedom of the borough, and the amount of pride that the regiment brings to the town cannot be overestimated. It is for all those reasons that Rochdalians are so appalled by the cutting of the 2nd Battalion. The strength of feeling has been made clear in our local newspaper, and I pay tribute to the excellent campaign led by the Rochdale Observer.

Let me now turn to the politics of the issue. I must first say how pleased I am that there is cross-party support for our campaign to stop the axing of the 2nd Battalion. We all know now why the Government are doing it: it is because they do not want to upset the Scottish situation, and that is simply not good enough. The Fusiliers is one of the best-recruited regiments in the armed forces. It is clear that the decision to axe one of its battalions was not based on what those at the top of the Army think, but has more to do with a political fix that is intended to satisfy people concerned with the Scottish question.

I have to say that probably one of the worst ways of reaching a decision in politics is to base that decision not on the facts, on what is best for the people of our country or on what is best for the long term, but on a short-term event that has no association with the armed forces. I urge the Government and the Minister to think again, and to reverse their decision to axe the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

13:30

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on behalf of my constituents. For many of them, this issue is of extremely great importance and significance. It is a great pleasure to follow my neighbour, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), who speaks with great authority on this matter. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for securing this debate and the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for it to take place here in the main Chamber, rather than in Westminster Hall—that is crucial, particularly given the number of members of the public, specifically the Fusiliers, who want to view it.

One of the first things that anyone who moves to the town of Bury, as I did, quickly realises is people’s enormous respect for and pride in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Families from right across the town have links in some way, down the years, with the Lancashire Fusiliers. Bury is home to the Fusiliers museum, which has recently been moved from its previous premises in the old barracks to a new site right in the town centre. I urge anyone who has not yet had the opportunity to visit the museum to do so as soon as possible. I also recommend that after visiting the museum they go outside to the small Gallipoli gardens, which contain the Lutyens memorial, and then take a short walk to the Bury parish church, the garrison church of the Lancashire Fusiliers, where a number of retired colours are on display. Every Wednesday at 1 pm the church holds a short service to commemorate all those soldiers, particular those from Bury, who have given their lives while serving in our armed forces and to remember all those now serving in our armed forces around the world who put their lives in danger to protect our freedom.

Talking of freedom, the Lancashire Fusiliers—now the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers—holds the freedom of not only the borough of Rochdale, but the borough of Bury and the neighbouring city of Salford, as the hon. Member for Rochdale mentioned.

[Bob Stewart]

My uncle was in the Lancashire Fusiliers and he got a distinguished service order with the regiment. It crosses my mind as we listen to my hon. Friend that there are so many Fusilier enclaves around the country. One battalion will have great difficulty covering everywhere in the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers’ vast recruiting area, and that will be extremely sad. We need as many battalions as possible, and thus we need to have the 2nd Battalion back.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend makes the valid point that the loss of the 2nd Battalion will result in great social and economic cost, with the loss of those opportunities for young men in towns such as Bury.

The Fusiliers have a proud record of military achievements, and Fusiliers have been decorated many, many times down the years for their bravery and courage. Each year, on the Sunday nearest to 25 April, the town centre of Bury is brought to a standstill as the Fusiliers parade through the town, and a special service is held in the parish church to commemorate the tragic events of the morning of 25 April 1915, when hundreds of men were killed and wounded as the 1st Battalion landed on W beach at Gallipoli. On Gallipoli Sunday, the exploits on that morning are still remembered to this day. The exploits of the Fusiliers that day were so heroic that they were awarded six Victoria Crosses—this is often now famously referred to as the winning of “six VCs before breakfast”.

However, I realise that past achievements alone are not sufficient reasons for not disbanding the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay set out in his excellent opening speech, there have to be—and there are—good military reasons why the 2nd Battalion should be retained. We must never forget why the Government have made these decisions. The defence budget must be balanced, and in the long term that will be for the benefit of our armed forces. In essence, though, politics is all about making choices—it is all about deciding on priorities. On this issue, I believe that the Government have made the wrong choice. There ought to be no higher priority than the defence of the realm. It cannot be right that, at a time when we are sending billions of pounds every year to pay for the bureaucratic monster in Brussels that is the European Union, we are sacrificing the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers here at home. I urge right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House to support the motion.

13:34

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing this debate and on the way he opened it.

I spoke in the pre-recess Adjournment debate on 17 July about the anger felt in Salford and across Greater Manchester about the Government’s decision to axe 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The Manchester Evening News has run a strong campaign urging the Government to rethink their plans. The campaign has attracted 15,000 people to sign petitions, including the petition of 10,000 handed in today to Downing street. Many former Fusiliers from Greater Manchester, including those from Salford whom I am pleased to have met, were on the march today. There is great strength of feeling in our area and today I shall talk about what the battalion means to people in Salford, and to one family in particular.

We have heard, but it bears repeating, that the 2nd Battalion has a long and distinguished service history dating back to the Lancashire Fusiliers—indeed, Fusiliers first took that title in 1685 and have fought in every major engagement since. In 1968, when the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was formed from the four English Fusilier regiments, they inherited from the Lancashire Fusiliers a regimental history steeped in tradition. As the hon. and gallant Gentlemen said, the regiment won more Victoria Crosses in the great war than any other regiment: 19 of the heroes of the Lancashire Fusiliers were awarded the VC, including the six the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) just described who won the VC in the action at Gallipoli. Many of the regiment’s soldiers have given their lives fighting for this country.

In 2009, the 2nd Battalion completed a tour in Afghanistan in which it lost seven men killed in action; others were wounded, some very seriously. Three of the seven died together in an explosion while on patrol near Sangin in Helmand province on 16 August 2009. One of them was Fusilier Simon Annis, from Salford. Simon and fellow Fusilier Louis Carter were trying to drag their injured comrade, Lance Corporal James Fullarton, to safety after a roadside bomb blast. As the pair lifted Lance Corporal Fullarton on to a stretcher, they triggered a second device, causing an explosion. All three soldiers died at the scene.

Simon Annis was on his first operational tour. He was described by his commanding officer as follows:

“Always at the heart of whatever was going on, it was no surprise to me that he died whilst trying to save his mortally wounded Section Commander. He should be seen as a shining example to the nation of what selfless commitment really means.”

Simon was 22 years old and had been married for just one month before he deployed to Afghanistan. I met his parents, my constituents Ann and Peter Annis, when the 2nd Battalion had its homecoming parade from Afghanistan later in 2009. Salford people lined the streets to give the returning soldiers a warm welcome, and I was so proud to be at that parade and to meet Mr and Mrs Annis. When the news came through about the axing of the battalion in which her son had served, Simon’s mother commented:

“Simon was so proud to serve in the battalion and now this feels like a smack in the face… Lads are still in Afghanistan and dying out in Afghanistan and the Army are talking about cuts and job losses. Morale must be at rock bottom.

I look at Simon’s headstone at his grave and it says ‘2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers’. He was so proud to serve in the battalion.”

This week, Mrs Annis told me her thoughts:

“As the mother of a Fusilier who paid the ultimate sacrifice for his Queen, his country and his battalion, I can only see this decision as a betrayal of trust for the soldiers still serving and to the memory of the brave men who have given their lives while serving in this historically proud regiment.”

She said that this is

“a decision that surely cannot be justified with the recruitment figures for the battalion. This can only be seen as cost-cutting rather than restructuring.

When I read the names on the Wall of Remembrance at the National Arboretum, I was immensely proud to be the mother of a young lad whose name appears alongside the names of such brave men from the 2nd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

Over and over again I have heard government excuses and reasons why this battalion should be axed, yet I still see no valid reason.”

She added:

“I urge you to think and reconsider the decision.”

I strongly support Mrs Annis’s views and, together with hon. Members across the House, am asking the Government to reconsider. As Mrs Annis said, the decision to axe the battalion feels like a betrayal of the memory of her son Simon and the other soldiers who have given their lives.

There is a deep attachment in Salford and across Greater Manchester to the 2nd Battalion, which was formed from the Lancashire Fusiliers and has such a long and proud history of service to this country. It is linked to Salford and, as we have heard, to Bury, Rochdale and Manchester. The loss of the battalion at this time of higher unemployment in our area of Greater Manchester would significantly reduce the opportunities for local people who want to enter a career serving their country, as young Simon Annis did, and it would of course put 600 soldiers and officers at risk of being made redundant.

I probably do not need to rehearse the key issue in the matter. As we have heard, the 2nd Battalion currently has a very good record on recruitment; it has 523 trained soldiers out of a maximum strength of 532. Brigadier David Paterson, the battalion’s honorary colonel, has described it as

“the strongest in raw manning and deployable strength”.

Surely that is a key factor. He also pointed out that the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is the only regiment set to grow over the next six months. Brigadier Paterson has questioned the criteria being used to single out the unit for cuts when it is actually in such a strong position for recruitment. It seems that officers who understand the situation do not agree with the reasoning behind the decision to axe the battalion. The previous Labour Government’s plans meant that the Army would not have ended up with single-battalion regiments. This Government’s plans leave regiments such as the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in a weaker position. When the hon. and gallant Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) spoke about that earlier, he called it a disgrace.

I urge Ministers to reconsider the decision to axe the 2nd battalion. I hope that they will respect its proud history and valour, its current strong recruiting position and, most of all, the sacrifice of fallen Fusiliers such as Simon Annis. The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has had the freedom of the city of Salford since 1974. I and the people of Salford and Greater Manchester are very proud of the 2nd Battalion. Losing it would be a great loss to us. They are England’s finest.

13:42

[Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). I join colleagues in thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and congratulating him on his campaign and on securing the debate. I have no intention of repeating the facts he laid out so clearly before the House. Instead, I wish briefly to flesh out the vital local perspective on such a decision, because the local angle is fundamentally important to a county regiment and local links with historical recruiting areas are the bedrock of the regimental system.

When I was 11 years old I joined the Army cadets. My boots were a bit too big, my beret was rarely straight, I never really got the hang of putties—I am sure some Members present remember those—and I often struggled to look smart, but I remember clearly and proudly putting on my beret, with its distinctive red and white hackle, for the first time because, although I was just a cadet, I had joined the Fusiliers. It was a formative moment for me. My time as a cadet in Warwick genuinely changed my life. Before that moment I had no ambitions to join the Army, but as a direct result of my time as a cadet with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers I went on to join the regular Army and served for nine years, leaving with the rank of major. And so it is for many of our brave servicemen and women. The link with a local and much-loved regiment is the route into service life for many of our soldiers.

In my constituency of North Warwickshire and Bedworth, the fate of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is not some distant, academic debate. The Fusiliers are a much-loved and integral part of the community. Bedworth is perhaps the only town in the country to hold a full armistice parade on 11 November every year, regardless of the day on which it falls. Last year more than 5,000 people attended. They do so because our community is fiercely proud of our veterans and our local regiment. Two years ago the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was awarded the freedom of the borough of Nuneaton and Bedworth.

Sadly, our borough has seen its share of tragedy. In recent years, we have seen the deaths on operations of two local heroes—Fusilier Louis Carter and Sergeant Simon Valentine. Their sacrifice touched local people immeasurably. It is no exaggeration to say that the entire community came together on both occasions in grief and to support the families. Louis’s and Simon’s mothers are well known and loved locally, and I know that they are watching this debate with great interest and sadness.

I am not standing here today asking the Government to abandon defence reforms completely. I have great sympathy with colleagues who have said there is no need to go ahead with the reforms at all. I share the views of many who have said that there are probably alternatives—that other parts of Government spending could be looked at again to ease what is having to be done in defence. However, I do not believe that it is practical or credible to say that the Ministry of Defence can escape any reform whatever.

The Secretary of State has a difficult balancing act: to bring the MOD budget back on to a sustainable footing after many years of a growing financial black hole, regardless of how big that hole is; I know that people argue about that. Tragically, there is no part of the armed forces that has not made sacrifices and lost lives in recent years, and there are no easy decisions on this matter.

Although I have specific concerns about the decision on the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, I understand the MOD’s difficulty. The difficult decisions must be made in the right way. Decisions about fighting units should be made by the Army itself, on sound military logic. What worries me is the clear impression that, for political reasons, well recruited English regiments are being sacrificed to save less well recruited regiments elsewhere.

In addition, I share concerns raised by a number of colleagues at the apparent change of Ministry of Defence policy regarding multi-battalion regiments. In 2004, under the previous Government, when the Ministry of Defence was last making difficult decisions about axing and amalgamating regiments and battalions, General Sir Mike Jackson, the Chief of the General Staff at the time, made it clear that the future lay with multi-battalion regiments rather than single-battalion ones. They are more efficient and cost-effective and provide a more effective promotion structure for soldiers within a family of connected battalions. At that time, the single-battalion regiments were targeted and the multi-battalion regiments were preserved or created. I ask the Minister why that policy now appears to have changed.

Many Fusiliers are seriously considering leaving the Army altogether rather than face being transferred to a Scottish battalion—as I understand it, the only option that members of the 2nd Battalion are being given once the 1st Battalion reaches capacity. There may be as few as 50 places available in the 1st Battalion to absorb members of the 2nd Battalion.

I strongly urge the Secretary of State and Prime Minister to look at the decision again for the sake of the families, the communities and the soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, who face an uncertain future. Once a Fusilier, always a Fusilier.

13:48

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on leading on this issue and on how he addressed the motion. As members of the Backbench Business Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), my parliamentary neighbour, and I were delighted to be asked to schedule this debate, which is timely.

I have no direct history in the armed services but I have had experience in war zones. I spent quite a bit of time in Northern Ireland in the 1990s and in 2008 I was part of a delegation that went from this House to Baghdad. While we were there, we became subject to a mortar attack. I was led by a Gurkha to an air raid shelter. I was disgusted by the comments made by the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt). I did not consider that soldier to be a foreign mercenary; I considered him to be a member of the British armed services taking care of me and the people I was with. How the hon. Gentleman contributed to this debate reflects badly on him.

My father was a member of the armed forces for three days; having been a coal miner, he joined the RAF during the war but they sent him back saying, “You’re more important to us working in the mine than mending aeroplanes.” But two uncles of mine were prisoners of war—one who worked on the Burma railway and another, ironically, who left the coal mines in 1928 because he hated them, but was captured as a soldier as part of the rearguard action at Dunkirk and spent the next four years working in a coal mine in Poland under German occupation. Everyone in this House has heard about that history and can share in our appreciation for the service of these people over so many years. Colleagues from the north-east have already mentioned the tremendous support for the Fusiliers, who have a huge history and huge respect. I pay tribute to all those who have marched here, from whatever part of the country, but particularly those from our part of the world. We are immensely proud of what you have done in the past and what we hope you will continue to do in future.

I want to get to the heart of the issue—the politics. I have spent a lifetime working in the public sector, and throughout that time I have seen various services used as a political football, including the health service, local government and the coal industry—and now the police and the fire service are in the front line of the debate about politics in public services—but I have never seen any of them being gerrymandered to the extent that has been happening in this debate. The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) was absolutely right—the fingerprints of the Chancellor of the Exchequer are all over this debate. He is not just the part-time Chancellor of this country; he is a part-time political strategist. This is a man whose whole life has been involved in being political, as we see when we read his history. When he was 13 years old he changed his name from Gideon because he thought it was a disadvantage in getting on in life. Perhaps it was also because his nickname at school was Giddy.

However, this is not a question of Giddy but “Diddy”. Did he interfere with the decision? Did he think it was a good tactic to try to placate the Scots by leaving them out of this mix? Did he give any thought to the impact on unemployment, now and in future, in regions like mine? Did he give any thought to the tremendous history of service and sacrifice that the Fusiliers have given to this nation? Did he care about the damage that these actions will cause? Did he feel so much contempt for the Scottish people that he thought they would be fooled by this sucker punch? Clearly he does not care about what is happening in relation to this issue; he is only interested in gaining pure party political and parliamentary advantage. That is a huge disservice to the people who are here today—people who we in this House ask not only to go and die for us but to go and kill for us. It is an absolute disgrace to treat them in this way when they deserve so much better.

I was very proud to go and meet the marchers today, but I have previously met many marchers in London and other parts of the country, and I have been on many marches in my life, and I have to say that most of them have ended up in disappointment. I have seen this Government and other Governments ignore health workers, policemen, firefighters and many other public servants who have asked them to reconsider their view of how they are being treated. It is incumbent on all those of us who have stayed here for this debate to vote in the right way to give these glorious men and women, the Fusiliers, the chance not to join that list of disappointed public servants. We must support the motion, but that is not the end of it—we have to keep the pressure on to make sure that this decision is reversed and that we look at other ways to make these savings.

13:53

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I draw the House’s attention to my interest as a member of the reserve forces. I apologise for not being here at the start of the debate because I have been serving on a Bill Committee, and will consequently keep my comments short.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and the Backbench Business Committee for making this debate possible. It allows us not only to air and scrutinise the nitty-gritty of Army 2020, its objectives and processes, but to show that there are many of us in this place—Back Benchers and those on the Front Bench too—who understand why this process is so difficult and painful. I am sure that will be cold comfort to members and veterans of 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, but I hope that today brings them some comfort.

Change—any change—is hard, but it is doubly so for our armed forces. Why? Because from the moment a person begins their training, in whichever service it is, everything they do is connected to the core values, philosophy, history, achievements and sacrifices of their unit or battalion and regiment. The deep emotional connection that such training creates has a very rational purpose—to produce soldiers, sailors and airmen with the courage to fight and win. Members of the Defence Committee and other hon. Members have monitored and are monitoring that process and the data underlying those decisions. In doing so, I have asked myself three key questions.

First, are the reforms needed and is their scale justified? We all know, and often talk about the massive budget deficit that Ministers have had to deal with, but we do not often discuss its consequences. Poor financial management at the Ministry of Defence costs lives. The reforms are required, to ensure that our armed forces are never again short-changed in the kit or training that we provide, or in their pay, terms and conditions or support for their families.

Secondly, how would I like these reforms to be done? I would want the services themselves to be in the driving seat, and it is my understanding that that has been the case. Thirdly, do I agree with the criteria against which the decisions have been made? The motion clearly does not, particularly the criteria that only one battalion should be lost per regiment and that there should be no deletion of cap badges. For the reasons that I gave at the start of my speech, and because I want a wide geographical presence for our armed forces in the United Kingdom, I am in favour of those criteria. However, despite disagreeing with that technical point in the motion, I am glad that it was tabled and that it has enabled this debate, and I hope that the House will not divide on it.

We do not talk enough in this place about defence. I am grateful that today we have been able to remind this House and the country of the unique difficulty of the reforms to our armed forces, and that the debate has also enabled us to pay tribute, which I wholeheartedly do, to 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

13:56

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

I had the privilege to serve, albeit briefly, with 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. As a Lancastrian I am well aware of the high regard in which the regiment is held by the local community, which is reflected in its successful levels of recruitment. I fully support the campaign of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I will not detain the House by repeating the points that he skilfully made in highlighting the many flaws in the Government’s case. I want to address not the criteria, which my hon. Friend tackled, but the wider decision-making rationale that underpins the Government’s measure and that was at the heart of the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), who is a distinguished former Ministry of Defence Minister, when he sought to justify why this cut is being made.

First, if a measure such as this is to be positioned on the grounds of cost savings, the first thing one might expect is clarity on how much is being saved. However, when I asked the House of Commons Library that question this morning, answer came there none—it could not tell me. A rough estimate might put the figure at £25 million a year, but the least we might expect from the Minister’s closing remarks is some certainty, if the measure is being justified on cost grounds, as to how much is being saved.

Secondly, the MOD suggests that this cut, which is out of step with the criteria applied to other battalions, is needed to address the defence overspend; but the saving is puny in the context of overall MOD spending, when one considers the reputational impact, the history and the esteem of the front-line service that is being cut.

Let me put this in context and draw the House’s attention to some recent National Audit Office reports. Last year the MOD increased its defence inventory at the same time as it was cutting the size of its armed forces, so we are buying more kit for fewer troops, even though we already had, for example, 10 years’ supply of overalls. We have 54 years’ worth of equipment for Nimrod, even though the plane has already been scrapped. The sums of money being wasted are not insignificant. The MOD spent £2.4 billion on non-explosive inventory, even though it already had five years’ worth of such items in stock—we spent £2.4 billion buying things when we already had five years’ worth of supplies. We are now trying to get rid of some—£1.4 billion-worth—of the stock that we bought by mistake. It is costing £277 million a year just to store the stock that we do not want, and which we should never have bought. That puts the saving that is being made by the decision on 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in context.

My second question to the Minister is therefore why, when the National Audit Office report in June—the very time when this cut was being proposed—could identify savings of that order, officials in the Department could not do more to avoid the necessity of cutting this battalion.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend is making a good point about overstocking. We are bearing down on that enormously. He will understand that, not having been in government between 1997 and 2010, we did not order most of this kit. We are selling off the kit so that we have to spend less money on storage, and we are spending less money on unnecessary kit; but he will also understand that the armed forces need good equipment, especially given the ongoing situation in Afghanistan.

[Stephen Barclay]

I am willing to recognise the big strides that the Government have taken in making those savings. However, we are spending vast sums of money on kit of which we have five years of supplies. The Minister says that this is about equipping our troops better, but we are not addressing that point by buying a higher specification of kit if we are buying things that we do not need. That was one of the key findings of the National Audit Office report.

If Ministers are not convinced that more could be done on logistics and supplies, perhaps I could put this saving of about £25 million in the wider context of our defence procurement. Again, I am willing to acknowledge the huge strides that have been taken by Ministers to get to grips with procurement. However, the 15 largest defence projects have overspent their initial budgets by £6 billion. The saving from this cut is a fraction of 1% of that, although we cannot know exactly how much it is because we have not had the figure. It is a tiny amount, and yet it is hitting the front line—our fighting units.

The case that I put to colleagues today is that surely more could be done, notwithstanding the efforts that are being made, to increase the scale, intensity and speed of implementation of the savings in logistics, supply and procurement. This decision does not provide value for money. It is too modest, it uses flawed criteria and the scope of delivering savings elsewhere means that it would be a mistake for the Government to go ahead with it. That is reflected in the comments from Members from all parts of the House today.

I have never voted against my Government, but I support my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and will do so if the motion is put to a vote. I hope that Ministers will listen to the strength of the arguments, look at the findings of the National Audit Office and deliver the required savings from other areas of the defence budget.

14:03

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay). I would also like to sing the praises of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for bringing this topic before the Chamber.

Seldom has this Chamber—I mean the Chamber in its entirety—been so full of so many gentlemen of such distinction.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

And women.

[Richard Drax]

And women, of course, but I am talking about those in the Gallery, whom I am not allowed to mention, although I just have. It is a great pleasure to be here today.

First, I am angry at the Opposition, because of their years of profligacy, their spending on social experiments and their continual reduction in spending on defence.

[Mr Jones]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Richard Drax]

No, I will not.

As a consequence of that spending, when the cuts have come, the defence of this country has not been on a level playing field.

As Members can imagine, I am not exactly happy with the Government, either. It is our solemn duty in this place to protect our country, her people and our dependants, and to meet all our commitments, not least our NATO ones. Our ability to do that is now seriously in doubt. It is clear to me, and to many others, that the defence spending review was carried out by accountants, not according to military logic. For example, we are now preparing to have a higher proportion of Territorial Army personnel. I have the highest respect for the TA, but if we are to reduce our forces, we need a higher, not lower proportion of regulars. Consequently, we now find ourselves making decisions for political expediency. As a former soldier, I find that shameful.

This is all about priorities. As I said, the priority should be to defend our country and her people. Our priorities are wrong. We have plenty of scope to cut state expenditure, which the Government have said continually that they will do. We have started down that road, but we have a long way to go. Throwing money at the Soviet-style bureaucracy that some people call the EU, and at foreign aid to states that practise genocide, is utter madness at a time when we are cutting our armed services, and it has put us in the terrible situation that we are in today.

I have been in this political game, if that is what it is, for two and a half years, and I am tired of our selling out on integrity, honesty and the defence of our country. We have to wake up, all of us, and defend our country in this House with every ounce of our being. If we do not, we betray our people and regiments that are sadly under threat today. That cannot go on. The people of this country will not accept it, and nor will I. Nor, I know, will many colleagues on both sides of the House. We have to face our responsibilities seriously, put politics to one side and look at the future of our country—our country, our country, our country—and not at our careers and whether we will be re-elected in five years’ time or whenever. Our country comes first, our careers come second.

We must reverse the Government’s decision. I will vote against the Government today, as I have on many occasions already. I take no pride in doing that, but I am not necessarily here to support the Government. I am here to support my constituents and what I believe in—my country.

14:08

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and to be part of the Warwickshire tail-end to this debate. There is clearly strong support for the motion throughout the House, and I add my congratulations to those that colleagues have paid to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for the diligence that he has shown in the campaign, the way he has brought people together and the convincing case that he has made for reconsidering the decision to disband the battalion.

I wish to speak about two matters. The first is the impact of the decision on my constituency, and the second, which we cannot avoid, is why we are in the position that we face today. Unlike many gallant colleagues who have spoken today, before my arrival in Westminster two and a half years ago I knew little of our armed services. My background had not given me that contact, so I was keen to join the armed forces parliamentary scheme to learn more. I have become attached to the Army. Through briefings on the state of our forces, visits to military establishments and, above all, the opportunity to speak to servicemen of all ranks, I have, thanks to that scheme, come to understand the bonds of loyalty and shared history between servicemen that were mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt). I have also come to understand why these issues are so important to so many of those who are involved in the services.

Of course, these issues are important to my constituents, too, as the regiment was formed when the Royal Warwickshire Regiment joined with others in 1968. Rugby has many connections between the town and the regiment. Rugby is a two-tier local authority and my constituency is covered by two district councils, both of which, along with the county council, have passed motions in full council to call for the decision to be reprieved. I am sure that other local authorities in areas covered by the regiment have done the same.

The mayor of Rugby, Councillor Miss Kathryn Lawrence, wrote to the Defence Secretary on 26 September and advised him that the council had unanimously passed the following notice of motion:

“Rugby Borough Council calls upon the Ministry of Defence to reconsider its proposals to disband the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers and to continue to support the success and leadership shown by the Regiment in recruiting, training and retaining loyal soldiers in the County of Warwickshire.”

The council stressed the high regard in which the people of Rugby held the regiment. As a former member of the authority, I echo that and endorse those comments.

My constituency includes the village of Bulkington, which has strong connections to the armed forces and falls under Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council. That council passed a resolution on 16 October opposing the abolition of the regiment and calling on MPs in Warwickshire, including myself, to oppose the proposal in the House of Commons, which I know we will do.

Warwickshire county council passed its resolution on 25 September, drawing attention to the signing of the armed forces community covenant in Warwick earlier this year. The connection between my constituency and those of my colleagues and the regiment is strong, as it is in Northumberland, the broader west midlands, London, south Lancashire and greater Manchester. We all have families who are linked to its survival.

[Bob Stewart]

I remind the House that the Royal Warwickshire Fusiliers, the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, was also the parent regiment of Field Marshal Montgomery. Perhaps he will be spinning in his grave.

[Mark Pawsey]

I thank my hon. Friend for reminding us all of the role of such a distinguished member of the armed forces.

In Warwickshire, we were proud to host the regiment on its homecoming parade when it returned to the UK after its tour of Afghanistan in 2009. It marched through Coventry, Nuneaton, Leamington Spa and Stratford-on-Avon, as well as my constituency and home town of Rugby. On Friday 1 May, I was proud to be in the crowds outside Rugby town hall, applauding its achievements while on active service.

We must not forget why the Government have been faced with difficult decisions. When we came to office, the new Government were confronted with not only a £38 billion black hole in the defence budget but the fact that no review of defence had taken place over the previous 12 years. That delay and the putting off of key decisions for so long has led to a much more severe adjustment than would otherwise have been necessary.

I fully understand that the structural changes necessary within the Army have been made to ensure we continue to have a force admired throughout the world that is properly funded. I believe the long-term future of our armed forces is far safer in the hands of this Government than it was in those of the previous Government.

This is an important debate and for the sake of my constituents and this battalion, I urge the Minister to reconsider this decision and to join colleagues from both sides of the House.

2 14 pm

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow a Warwickshire colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey), and I endorse his comments. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for his work in securing both this debate and such cross-party support for what we are trying to achieve.

The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has deep roots in my constituency, as in many constituencies across the country. I am reluctant to mention Montgomery again, but Warwick is certainly a place of which he would have had fond memories. Over the centuries, the regiment has served with honour and courage across the world, fighting to preserve our freedom and security against the greatest of odds. I was a cadet although not a soldier, and I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) was also a cadet in my constituency. The British Army has been so successful because of its regimental structure. Soldiers not only serve their Queen and country, but are part of a community and family and feel an attachment to that. No matter where in the world they are serving, they can feel a piece of home.

As a Member of Parliament, I have been privileged to meet serving soldiers in Afghanistan, and I know how much pride they take in their regimental duties and identities back at home. From speaking to veterans, I also know that that bond spreads across the generations, and that it is felt not just by soldiers, but among civilians. Tens of thousands of people across Warwickshire have signed petitions in the regiment’s recruiting areas to save the 2nd Battalion. The regiment is part of our community and way of life, and that emotional tie is important to a modern, voluntary Army.

At the weekend, I was particularly moved to hear a local vicar, Reverend Brown, speak about the “golden thread” of the Fusiliers’ regimental history, which he called a “true community” that is timeless and binds generations of service personnel together. It is something I have heard repeatedly in many representations received from constituents.

I know that we are facing difficult economic times, and that as a consequence the Government must look carefully at the structure of our armed forces. I believe, however, that there has been no adequate explanation for why the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers must be removed from the order of battle, and that the Ministry of Defence should look again at the proposals.

We should be basing these decisions not on historical issues but on the future, and at present, the 2nd Battalion is not one of the worst recruiting units but one of the best. Out of a maximum strength of 532, it has 523 trained men and women, and many more are waiting to join. Moreover, it is recruiting out of some of the fastest growing populations in the country. Warwickshire grew at 8% a year during the decade between 2001 and 2011—above the average for England and Wales—and Greater London’s population increased by 14% between 2001 and 2011. The 2nd Battalion is not recruiting from parts of the country that are in terminal demographic decline, but from areas where population growth is likely to be at its strongest. I understand that the Government want to give all parts of the country a chance to serve in our armed forces, and that is why it is so confusing that they have chosen to reduce opportunities for service in areas with the fastest population growth where demand is likely to be highest.

There is also a real concern that by paring back the 2nd Battalion, the regiment as a whole may wither. Once the damage has been done to local morale and the community behind a regiment, there is danger that the whole future of the regiment may be affected. That would be a damaging blow to our armed forces as a whole.

I believe there is a clear military case to be made to keep the 2nd Battalion, but there is also an emotional one. My constituents want the 2nd Battalion to remain, as I am sure the constituents of many hon. Members on both sides of the House do. They want that important part of our community to be preserved, and I have a duty to represent their very strongly held feelings.

14:20

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

It gives me great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) in this important debate, and it gives me great pride to be one of four Warwickshire MPs on the Government Benches in the debate. Warwickshire is one of the smallest counties in our country, but we make strong representations for it with great pride. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on a tremendous campaign. He should be very proud of his efforts.

When the Secretary of State made his initial statement, I said that my constituents would be deeply concerned over the announcement to disband 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I also said that my constituents would welcome the retention of the Gurkha regiments. I stand by those comments, but since the initial statement, I have spoken to many of my constituents. They are not just deeply concerned, but absolutely devastated that 2RRF is to be disbanded.

My constituents have a deep affection for the regiment, which they demonstrated in September 2010, when the regiment was given the rare honour of freedom of our borough. Thousands of local people lined the streets proudly to welcome home 200 brave soldiers from the 2nd Battalion. Not even an unsavoury element from the English Defence League could dampen the enthusiasm and pride of my constituents on that day. It was with that same degree of pride that I felt humbled recently when I marched through Nuneaton town centre shoulder to shoulder with Fusilier veterans in support of their campaign to save the 2nd Battalion. It is with pleasure and pride that I am wearing the regiment’s tie, which I have been asked by veterans to wear.

The passion and pride of my constituents stems from the long history of people from Nuneaton joining that proud regiment of Fusiliers. My constituents were pained when two brave young Fusiliers, Fusilier Louis Carter and Sergeant Simon Valentine, were taken from us recently in the conflict in Afghanistan. The proud mothers of both Louis Carter and Simon Valentine are strong supporters of this campaign. Mrs Carter and Mrs Valentine, along with many of my constituents, will be watching this debate with great interest.

I stress that I understand the challenges that the Secretary of State and his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), have faced since coming to office. I understand and agree that changes to our armed forces are inevitable given the deficit, the debt and the black hole in the defence budget that we faced when we came to office. I have supported many of those changes, however unpalatable they were.

That said, many of the changes were made using the principle of evidence-based policy. The decision to disband 2RRF follows that principle to an extent, but the evidence-based approach is skewed by what seems to be a more political criterion overlying it. I fully agree that the main criterion and determinant in the decision-making process should be military capability and sustainability. It seems somewhat strange, particularly on the point of sustainability, that 2RRF can fall on the basis of that criterion when five less sustainable regiments are being maintained. By adding the criterion of allowing a single regiment to lose a maximum of one battalion and the principle of losing no cap badges, the Government have moved from evidence-based policy that depends on military grounds to a policy that looks like a political fix. That has muddied the waters.

The only conclusion to be drawn is that the political will goes beyond the Government’s headline policy. I fully appreciate the assertion, in view of the facts presented thus far, that 2RRF is the fall guy for the Scottish regiments, which have a far poorer recruiting record. With the Scottish independence question before us, this is a persuasive theory which is hard not to believe. That said, I do not advocate abandoning the Scottish regiments. On the contrary, we need to be more imaginative. That seems to have been the case with previous reorganisations. I would be interested in the Minister’s explaining why regimental troop numbers across the review cannot be considered to see whether 2RRF can be retained. That approach would help with the sustainability of other regiments that are probably far less successful at recruiting.

Whatever method we use to resolve the impasse, today’s debate shows the strength of feeling across the country among Members representing constituencies such as mine. The 2nd Battalion deserves a far better hearing than it is getting, not only on the grounds of sentiment but on factual grounds of capability and sustainability. I appeal to the Secretary of State to reconsider how the decision was arrived at and to support 2RRF.

14:26

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be the tail-end Charlie in the debate, other than the Minister, of course.

Like others, I begin by paying tribute to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) for securing the debate. It has prompted a wonderful outburst of regimental ties, which cannot be a bad thing, and has resulted in probably the smartest turnout in the Public Gallery that we have seen for years. Although we are not allowed to mention the Public Gallery, the whole House pays tribute to the service and gallantry of those seated up there. [Hon. Members: “You’ve done it twice now!”] I mentioned it twice, but I think I got away with it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has got away with it twice, but he knows the rules, and I am sure he will not test the patience of the House any further but instead make his excellent contribution to the debate.

[Mr Ellwood]

I have been punished with time taken away from me as well.

This debate has been a healthy and valuable reminder of the important role that our armed forces play not only in meeting our national and international obligations but in maintaining links with society and community, which my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) also stressed. The armed forces are also the force of last resort to which we turn when there are problems with, for example, flooding, foot and mouth and, most recently, the Olympics—let us remember their last-minute contribution there.

Sadly, the Opposition did not recognise, register or apologise for the dire financial situation that led to these tough decisions having to be made and the fact that there was a specific funding gap of £38 billion.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am happy to show the hon. Gentleman the National Audit Office report specifying that exact figure and showing that the Opposition stole money from future budgets.

[Mr Jones]

The NAO report does not state that. It states that the only way to get to a £36 billion figure on the procurement budget is with flat cash. Without it, the figure would be about £6 billion. I suggest he read the report first.

[Mr Ellwood]

We have read the report carefully. It is true that the last Government took money from future budgets, and of course that money cannot be spent twice. It is also true that in the good times prior to 2007 the then Government cut the defence budget in real terms, while other budgets across the board went up.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, but I remember the hon. Gentleman and other Conservative Members at the general election calling for a larger Army and Navy, but what have they done in power? They have cut, cut, cut.

[Mr Ellwood]

We did not call for a larger armed forces at the election itself. It was our intention. It is where we would like to go. When we made these announcements, we were not expecting Labour to have ruined the Treasury numbers, as it did.

As has been repeated again and again, Labour made a mess of something else. I refer to the madness of its procurement strategy, which wasted billions of pounds in overruns. The worst of it was delaying the carrier build by one year, which cost £1 billion alone. Given that the capitation cost of a brigade is £100 million, let us think how many battalions we could have saved. To take an operational perspective, for years our troops in Afghanistan were forced to use Snatch Land Rovers, but suddenly the last Government woke up to the fact that they were not adequate and there was a flurry of buying off the shelf. The Cougar, the Mastiff, the Ridgback—all these vehicles were purchased off the shelf, wasting huge sums of money, while our armed forces suffered on the front line. All those funding issues had a knock-on effect on the decisions we are debating today and the decisions for the future, not only on battalion and brigades, but on the order of battle.

I am an infanteer—I served in the Royal Green Jackets, another regiment that disappeared under the last Government—but I am also a national politician. We are all national politicians, and we must consider the capability of our entire armed forces—the demand to save ships; the demand to save planes, such as the Harrier, which has been debated by this House many times; the demand to save intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance capability; and, of course, the demand to save regiments, not least my own. As we have heard, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has an amazingly proud history, dating back to James II —I am sorry that the Father of the House is not here to confirm that—and it has had an impact not just in its own area, but right across Britain as a whole. When the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers was formed, it was given the most up-to-date weapon of the day, the fusil, which gave it its name, and in the first world war it had a total of 196 battalions in operation. How different the picture is today.

We have heard some powerful arguments, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says in response to the support we have heard for the Fusiliers. However, I would also say to him—I hope he listens carefully to this proposal—that if it is the Government’s intention to reconfigure the balance of our armed forces between regular forces and the Territorial Army more towards the Australian and American models and to increase the size of Territorial Army units, and if it is also the Minister’s intention to decide to disband the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, then why not allow this fine battalion to configure immediately into a Territorial Army unit? I absolutely accept that that is not an ideal solution, but it would prevent that footprint in history and the contribution made by this amazing battalion from disappearing in their entirety.

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend will know that the Territorial review is continuing. We have had the review and we are now looking at the details, but I assure him that we will look carefully at that proposal as we expand the Territorial Army, or the reserve.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to the Minister. I appreciate that that is not the solution that many hon. Members, on both sides of the House, are looking for, but if it is the Government’s intention to reduce the size of our battalions, my proposal would seem to be one way of maintaining the future prosperity and history of this wonderful regiment.

[Bob Stewart]

That is a very good idea. The regiment can go into purdah—that is, it can go into the reserve Army for a while—and if we need it, it can come back. That has happened in the past and it can happen again, and it is an extremely good way to proceed.

[Mr Ellwood]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention; I am grateful. I now look forward, as we all do, to hearing what the Minister has to say about this important subject.

14:33

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

We have heard some very heartfelt, passionate and emotional contributions today. I do not criticise hon. Members for that emotion in any way; indeed, I have a great deal of sympathy for many of the points that have been raised.

I would like first to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing this debate, which has allowed so many people to contribute and make their points, which is very important in this House of Commons. I welcome this opportunity to explain the situation. We have come to these decisions, as has the Army, after a great deal of consideration and analysis. The British Army and the regiments concerned are now looking to get on with the difficult task of implementing the decisions, which, frankly, have not been palatable.

In May 2010, when we entered government, we faced a dire financial situation. A £38 billion black hole, possibly a great deal more—

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Robathan]

Of course I will give way, although I must point out that the hon. Gentleman had the opportunity to give way to me and would not do so, even though he had been told, on a piece of paper that I saw being slipped to him, that he could take as many interventions as he wanted.

[Mr Jones]

That is not what I said at all. It is interesting to hear what the Minister is saying. He talks about the £38 billion, which he has never explained before at the Dispatch Box, and he is now telling the House that the figure could be bigger. How much bigger?

[Mr Robathan]

The hon. Gentleman did not explain at all; he just said that he would not take any interventions. I can see the piece of paper there. Perhaps he would like to read what it says—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I can probably help the Minister on this. The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was under the impression that he was time-limited, which of course was not the case. That was not down to any information that he had at the time; it was while he was speaking that he believed he was time-limited. The Minister will have a slightly longer time. Perhaps we can sort this out across the Dispatch Box.

[Mr Robathan]

Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the previous Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), left a note saying that there was no money, and there is no money. We are working on producing a detailed analysis of the money, which will be made available to the Defence Committee at some stage. I am not quite sure where we have got to on that.

[Mr Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

Not for a third time. He would not give way even once. Can we crack on?

We have to deal with that hole in the budget, and the hole in the defence budget, if we want to put the defence of this nation on a sound and sustainable footing—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) chunters away, but we cannot spend money that we do not have.

[Mr Jones]

You don’t even know how much money you’ve got.

[Mr Robathan]

As hon. Members will know from statements made by the Secretary of State for Defence—

[Mr Jones]

You’re making it up.

[Mr Robathan]

Have you finished?

As hon. Members will know from statements made by the Secretary of State for Defence, the Ministry of Defence is now—for the first time I can remember—living within its means, and we can plan for the future with a much greater degree of certainty than was previously the case.

[Mr Jones]

I find what the Minister is saying completely remarkable. He has just told us that he cannot explain the £38 billion. He has also told us that the figure could be bigger, and he is now saying that the defence budget is in balance. If he did not know how big the hole was in the first place, how the hell can he now claim that the budget is in balance? That is complete, incoherent nonsense.

[Mr Robathan]

I do not think that this debate should be argued on party political grounds—

[Mr Jones]

You started it.

[Mr Robathan]

I regret very much the attitude of the hon. Gentleman. Others will look at the debate and decide whether he started it, or whether we did. Frankly, it is pathetic and childish to argue in such a way.

[Graham Stringer]

I sympathise with the Minister; as an ex-military person, he must be in an uncomfortable and lonely position. However, rather than having a debate about the nation’s finances, which would be more appropriate at another time, will he respond to the points that have been made on both sides of the House? What is his argument against the fact that the decision to get rid of the battalion was made on political grounds, and not on military grounds? That is the substantial point of the debate.

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. As it happens, I have a great regard for him, and I do not wish this to be a party political debate. I wish to talk about the future of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, which has a very proud history.

We are now living within our means, and we have a fully funded equipment programme and affordable armed forces. Reaching that position has required us to make hard, painful choices, which have included reducing the size of the regular Army. I have always said—I have heard it repeated two or three times in this debate—that the first duty of Government is the defence of the realm. Our mission endures, and it is to protect our country and its values and interests abroad and at home. To do this, we must meet the complex range of threats and challenges in a rapidly changing world. We must adapt to stay ahead and ensure that our people have what they need in order to do what we ask of them.

[Mr Baron]

I am pleased that the debate is returning to the substance of the motion about the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The Minister said that detailed analysis was undertaken to come to the basic decision to axe 2RRF. Will he explain the basis of that analysis, as the Secretary of State’s answers to written parliamentary questions make it very clear that other battalions had far worse recruitment and retention figures than the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers? On what basis, then, was this analysis undertaken?

[Mr Robathan]

If I may, I will cover my hon. Friend’s points as they were made in his speech. My responses are written down here, and it is better that I give him a detailed analysis rather than provide one off the top of my head.

While our armed forces might be smaller than before, they will still be able to reach across the world and operate across the full range of capabilities. We are reducing the size of the regular armed forces, but we are increasing the reserves, including an integrated element of the total land force of 120,000, with an extra £1.8 billion of investment in reserves, training and equipment.

The Army has been both pragmatic and imaginative in responding to this very real challenge. The blueprint was decided upon by the Army and announced by the Defence Secretary on 5 July. This project we call Army 2020. For the first time, this provides a pathway to a fully integrated Army of regular and reserve forces that will be configured for high-end conflict, rapid reaction, UK engagement and upstream conflict prevention.

[Stephen Barclay]

Will my right hon. Friend address the point that the value of the defence inventory is currently £40.3 billion? Just this June, the National Audit Office said:

“the Department is spending money on unnecessary levels of stock, which could be spent elsewhere in government.”

We are talking about such a modest sum of money; can it not be found elsewhere?

[Mr Robathan]

I have to confess to my hon. Friend that I do not deal with procurement measures. We have a defence reform project going on, which I think he will find addresses his point. I will ensure that he receives a letter from the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology, setting out a proper response.

I think it would be better if we stuck with the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, because that is what people have come to speak about. Today, we have heard arguments about the withdrawal of 2RRF from the Army’s order of battle. Neither my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State nor I take any pleasure in the removal of any unit from the Army. I can assure hon. Members that we did not come into politics to reduce our armed forces. There is not a battalion or regiment in the current order of battle that does not have a proud history and significant battle honours. If, however, we are to create an affordable and balanced Army offering serious military capability into the future, a small number of those proud units and battalions will have to be withdrawn from the line.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has been made aware of the reasons behind the Army Board’s decisions—and they were Army Board decisions, endorsed by Ministers. I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate these reasons for the benefit of the House.

[Mr Baron]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

I am about to answer my hon. Friend’s questions; he might like to intervene again later.

In redesigning the future Army, it was decided that five fewer regular infantry battalions were required than are currently in the order of battle. In deciding which of the current 36 battalions to withdraw, the Army—I repeat, the Army—applied a number of criteria. The first was to maintain a regimental system that was largely regionally aligned. The second was to ensure the sustainability of regiments according to the projected regional supply of recruits in the 2020 time frame. The third was to ensure proportionality of outcome across the infantry, with no cap badge deletions and with no regiment losing more than one battalion.

Another key criterion, which Members who have served in the Army will understand, was to balance the whole infantry structure to maintain a variety of roles and parity of opportunity of experience for officers and soldiers. It was also important to take account of previous decisions on mergers and deletions, as well as historical manning performance. Finally, the Army wanted those who are currently serving to see this as fair and equitable. After all, it is those who are serving now, and those who are seeking to join the Army, who will make the change happen.

Those criteria were determined by the Chief of the General Staff and by General Carter, who has led the Army 2020 review. After a period of consultation with Ministers, they constructed an objective, fair and transparent process that included the criteria, applying the military logic to which my hon. Friend referred.

[Mr Baron]

I appreciate the Minister’s generosity in giving way. Let me make it clear for the record that I know him well enough to be aware that he takes no pleasure in announcing these cuts. I do not doubt that at all: it is not what we are questioning. However, if there have to be cuts—and I personally think that the Government’s priorities are wrong; I think that such cuts should be made outside the MOD budget—they should be based on military logic, not on political calculation that is designed to save more poorly recruited Scottish battalions north of the border.

In answers given to me by the Secretary of State and in answers to written parliamentary questions, it has been confirmed—confirmed in writing by the Secretary of State—that the five least sustainable battalions will be two from the Royal Regiment of Scotland, one from the Yorkshire Regiment, one from the Mercian Regiment and one from the Royal Welsh Regiment. That is military logic, as applied in a letter to me from the Secretary of State.

[Mr Robathan]

As I have said, one of the criteria was that no regiment should lose more than one battalion. I shall explain shortly why the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers came into the frame.

[Dan Byles]

The Minister is an old military hand himself, so he will know the phrase “situating the estimate”. Let me explain for the benefit of those who are not military that it means setting the parameters deliberately in order to achieve the desired outcome. Does the Minister not recognise that there is a great deal of concern among Members in all parts of the House who believe that that is what has happened in this instance?

[Mr Robathan]

I do recall the phrase, and that is not what has happened.

Let me now explain in some detail how the application of the criteria that I listed earlier led us to the outcome announced on 5 July. Some of this may sound a little dry, but it is important for the House to understand the care that was taken in reaching these decisions.

Drawing on demographic data for the age cohort across the United Kingdom from which infantry recruits are drawn—the 15-to-29 age group, according to the way in which the Office for National Statistics segments the population—and taking account of historical trends in terms of the percentage of that cohort who were likely to join the Army, an assessment was made of which regiments were likely to be the least sustainable in the future in their current configuration. That work also included a comparison of each regiment’s historical outflow so that the likely recruiting requirement could be determined. On that basis, the Army’s analysis showed that the regiments likely to be the least sustainable in future were the Royal Regiment of Scotland, the Yorkshire Regiment, the Mercian Regiment, and the Royal Welsh Regiment. It was therefore decided to move one battalion from each of those regiments.

After the removal of the four battalions, and given the criterion that there should be no cap badge deletions and no regiment should lose more than one battalion, the method of predicting future sustainability, and therefore which battalion should be added to the four whose future had already been decided, became less statistically discerning. To put it another way, it was impossible to distinguish between a number of regiments on the basis of the future sustainability criterion alone.

[Sir Alan Beith]

In his letter to me, the Minister used those figures and there was a prediction that the Royal Regiment of Scotland would be one and three quarter battalions short on sustainability in the future. When we compare the risk to operability of that level of difficulty with the predictions for the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, do we not find that the military logic is overpowering?

[Mr Robathan]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. However, in these difficult decisions, certain criteria were applied, one of which was that there should be only one battalion taken away from each regiment. That is what, I fear, trumped the good point that he makes.

[Patrick Mercer]

I am conscious that the Minister finds this an exceedingly painful process, but can he explain something? We were told a few years ago that it was deeply undesirable for regiments to continue as one-battalion organisations, for reasons relating to the career structures and all sorts of military logic, which I did not necessarily agree with. How was it that just a few years ago new regiments were invented and curious names were developed, yet now, a short time later, all of that is being stood on its head?

[Mr Robathan]

I do not think that I made that point, because I was not the person involved at the time. Since my hon. Friend’s time in the armed forces, and mine, people have moved a great deal more between divisions and between larger regiments. Where we are talking about a one-battalion regiment in a division, people cross over between the regiments in the division. That is certainly happening much more than it used to.

Determining the fifth battalion to be withdrawn required the application of criteria that went wider than demographics. Remembering the imperative of having no regiment losing more than one battalion, the Army discounted those regiments that were already losing a battalion, such as the Royal Scots, and those which were single-battalion regiments. That meant that the choice came down to a battalion from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, the Royal Anglian Regiment or The Rifles—the Parachute Regiment was excluded on the grounds of its specific role. Taking account of the need to maintain equity of opportunity across the infantry divisions, the Army decided—I stress that it was the Army that decided this—that it should be the Queen’s Division that lost a battalion. That was because it had six battalions whereas other divisions would be left with only four or five. Taking account of historical manning performance—since the previous reorganisation of the infantry, in 2007, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers has had average undermanning of 13.3%—and the fact that the Fusiliers is a regiment with two battalions, it was considered the most appropriate from within the Queen’s Division from which to withdraw a battalion.

I would like to pay tribute to the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. It has a proud history and it will continue as a regiment with a proud history. It has served in every major campaign since 1674, up to and including Afghanistan. I have visited the regimental museum and the headquarters in the Tower of London with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay—in fact, I went back only last month. I know the history of this proud regiment.

As some in this Chamber may know, in Northern Ireland Second Lieutenant Winthrop devised a clever way of finding hidden caches. I remember being taught this in Northern Ireland, and it allowed us to find hidden IRA weapons. He was a Fusilier, and that is someone more recently who influenced military thinking. I served with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in the first Gulf war, and my mother’s uncle was killed in 1916 while serving in the Fusiliers. I mention that because we all hugely respect the past and present members of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. I fully understand that this decision came as a great disappointment to those serving with the regiment and those, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, with connections to it.

[Mr Baron]

I welcome the Minister’s warm words, but I suggest to him that we do not just want warm words—we want action. Clearly he is basing his whole argument on the idea that regimental losses should be limited to one battalion. That is exceptionally questionable, and it is a complete about-turn on the thinking of the reorganisation that took place only six years ago, when four cap badges and six battalions were amalgamated into larger regiments. Can he not understand that it is far more disruptive for a two-battalion regiment—a well-recruited one—to lose one battalion than it is for a five-battalion regiment that has trouble sustaining two battalions, as has been admitted by the MOD, to maintain those two battalions? Can he not see the logic here? Can he not see why the MOD’s limitation of one battalion loss per regiment is so illogical?

[Mr Robathan]

My hon. Friend is an intelligent person, but I have made the point several times that the Army decided that it wanted to withdraw only one battalion from each regiment, and that is why this decision was reached.

I know that the decision is a great disappointment to many people, but it was simply not possible to save every unit, given the financial situation in which we found ourselves. I hope that what I have explained is a fair, transparent and equitable process, which produced the right outcome, in difficult circumstances, for the Army. The MOD has now placed in the Library of the House the detailed data the Army used in reaching its decision on which battalions to remove from the order of battle.

I think I have dealt with the question of Scotland. We did not take another battalion out of the Royal Scots, because that would have been to the detriment of the criterion that only one battalion should be taken from each regiment. My hon. Friend and others have suggested that the decisions were not taken on wholly military grounds and that a degree of political influence was brought to bear that has resulted in English regiments “losing out”—their words—to the Royal Regiment of Scotland, but the advice from the Chief of the General Staff and his Army 2020 team was clear: the effect on the regimental structure and the wider community of losing more than one battalion would magnify the impact of any change and thus impact on the subsequent healing process. I hope that that advice and the rest of the objective criteria the Army applied to the review will put minds at rest. As the Government have made clear on a number of occasions, we are making no plans on the basis of an independent Scotland, as we firmly believe—a belief that I know is shared on both sides of the House—that the majority of Scottish people will continue to support the Union in any referendum.

Cap badges and uniforms are important, but hon. Members should realise that they evolve and change over the years, and indeed have done so during our lifetimes. I have worn many different cap badges and I believe that people adapt very quickly and are proud of the regiments and the units in which they serve. I assure all hon. Members here today that we are aware of the justifiably fierce pride and loyalty felt by local communities to their locally recruited battalions, wherever that might be across the UK.

I come back to the real reason behind the reductions, which is the fiscal mess we inherited in 2010. The process has been painful for the Government. I reiterate: no Defence Minister came into government to reduce our armed forces. However, balancing the black hole inherited from the previous Government required difficult decisions to reach our current more balanced and affordable position. The Army—and it is the Army—has played an intelligent and constructive part in the exercise and has had to make some very tough decisions, but it is never possible to make such significant changes without causing some pain somewhere. The plan that has been announced, while difficult for some to accept, offers a balanced and fair way to maintain a robust regimental system into the future.

I reiterate that the Fusiliers—the proud Royal Regiment of Fusiliers—will go on as a regiment. We are not abolishing the Fusiliers, as some seem to have implied. I know that the Army as a whole understands that and is now getting on with implementing the new structures in the positive and pragmatic way that anybody who knows the Army would expect. My sincere hope is that hon. Members, and in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, who instigated this debate, can now allow the Army to do so.

15:00

[Mr Baron]

Perhaps we should make it absolutely clear that no one really wants to make cuts to the armed forces, particularly in these increasingly dangerous times. However, if cuts have to be made, our contention is that military logic should prevail rather than political calculation about saving more poorly recruited Scottish battalions ahead of the Scottish referendum. I have made it clear that I do not believe that any battalion should be cut, Scottish or otherwise, but the Government’s decision is a bad one.

The decision is a bad one, not because we say so but because it is clear from responses to letters and inquiries to the MOD and from written parliamentary answers—the evidence is there for all to see—that 2RRF should not be in this position because its recruitment and retention record is excellent. The original five battalions, which were the least sustainable ones, did not include 2RRF. I cannot help but conclude that this rather silly rule that regimental losses should be limited to one battalion is a political fix ahead of the Scottish referendum, because only six years ago four cap badges and six battalions were amalgamated into one regiment. All the talk then was about how larger regiments were the way forward because they provided a varied career structure and sustainability. That is the right way to go about it.

The sudden introduction, out of the blue, of the rule about limiting regimental losses to one battalion is utter nonsense, and it is just by coincidence that it has happened to save both Scottish battalions that there were earmarked for closure. The MOD admits that the Royal Regiment of Scotland should be two battalions short. It is two battalions down. It is illogical for the Government to say that they will maintain them when they cannot help themselves. As for the Government’s claim that only one battalion, the Scottish battalion, will be lost, that is also untrue, as the Minister very well knows, because it will only be downsized. No Scottish battalions will be lost.

I repeat that I do not want any battalions to be lost in these cuts. I think that we should be prioritising our spending outside the MOD budget better. I have questioned aid to India, unfashionable though that may be, and the billions we are pouring into the European Union. This is a bad decision. It is based not on military logic but on political calculation. It is my intention, with your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, to do what I can to divide the House on the issue.

Question put.

15:02

Division 83

Ayes: 57

---

Conservative: 31
Labour: 21
Liberal Democrat: 5

Noes: 3

---

Conservative: 3

Resolved,

That this House opposes the disbandment of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (2RRF); notes that 2RRF is the only infantry battalion being cut that was not initially due for disbandment on military grounds; further notes that 2RRF was instead caught by the Government’s additional criteria of only one battalion loss per regiment and no deletion of cap-badges, which has resulted in more poorly-recruited Scottish battalions being saved; further notes the social and economic costs of disbandment; and urges the Government to reverse its decision.

Intercept Evidence

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

15:14

Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I beg to move,

That this House notes with concern that the inquest into the death of Mark Duggan may never commence under the current arrangements for the use of intercept evidence in courts and inquests; and calls on the Government to review its approach to open justice, in particular the use of intercept evidence in courts and inquests.

As a rule, when someone dies in questionable circumstances an inquest is held in order to establish the cause of death and set out the events that led up to it. In a society that prides itself on being fair and just, it is inconceivable that the circumstances of such a death should leave questions unanswered. Moreover, establishing the events that lead to death at the hands of the state in particular is integral to maintaining a relationship between state and citizens. That has been the case in our country since 1194, when the precedent for coroners’ inquests began. Whereas an inquiry considers broader issues of public concern, the role of an inquest is to provide a detailed account of how an individual came to die in suspicious circumstances or at the hands of the state. An inquest is an invaluable tool in both answering questions and, importantly, learning lessons.

On its own, a public inquiry is insufficient in helping us piece together the circumstances in which an individual has died at the hands of the state. We witnessed that following the Hillsborough tragedy and I am afraid that we are witnessing it again, this time in my constituency of Tottenham, where the family of a man shot by police await a public inquest into his death. As the law stands, they cannot even be told why an inquest cannot take place.

The riots that followed the shooting of Mark Duggan on 6 August 2011 portrayed most vividly and, indeed, violently the frustration caused by questions left unanswered. Not everyone who rioted in the days following Mark Duggan’s death was motivated by a sense of injustice, but if we look back at those events we will see that it is clear that the shooting was a touch paper—a spark that began the rioting.

More than one year on, the denial of an inquest is an affront to the families of those who have lost a relative in circumstances that remain unexplained, confining them to a lifetime of uncertainty. This is not the first time that an inquest has been denied following a fatal shooting. I refer hon. Members to the case of Azelle Rodney, a young man shot by the police in 2005. It has been suggested that the inquest into Mr Rodney’s death was withdrawn from court as a direct consequence of section 17 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Crucial material detailing the events leading up to Azelle Rodney being shot was deemed inadmissible in court and key evidence was redacted into meaningless fragments. A public inquiry headed by a High Court judge began just last month. Mr Rodney’s mother has been excluded from hearings on more than one occasion and the inquiry chair has ruled that her legal team cannot be shown surveillance video footage. His family’s questions about his death remain unanswered to this day.

The denial of an inquest is an affront not just to the families concerned, but to everybody who lost relatives in last year’s riots; to everybody whose businesses and homes were destroyed and who remain without a home or a livelihood; and to every one of us who believes in the need for open justice—for justice to be done and for it to be seen to be done. This country has experience of difficult cases that require inquests, such as the 7/7 bombings, the Marchioness and, most recently, the deaths of Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes. All of those cases required inquests not just to get to the truth of what happened, but to learn lessons on behalf of the state and those who act for it.

Just yesterday it was revealed that the trial of Kevin Hutchinson-Foster—the man charged with supplying Mark Duggan with a handgun 15 minutes before he was shot by police—has ended without verdict. Now more than ever we must ensure that there is an open, judge-led inquest into the death of Mark Duggan.

The denial of a public inquest not only damages the outcome of this case, but casts a shadow over our entire judicial system. Under RIPA, we cannot know whether it is the inadmissibility of intercept evidence that prevents an inquest from being held. Mark Duggan’s family will have to accept that an inquest may not take place, but they cannot be told why it has been denied. What sort of climate of suspicion—of cloaks and daggers—do we create when evidence of vital importance is presented not in an open court in front of a jury, coroner or judge, but behind closed doors? What message does that send, not just to the family of Mark Duggan, but to the riot victims who lost their homes, businesses and livelihoods in the wake of the riots? If an open inquiry cannot be held into the events leading up to Mark Duggan’s death, closed justice is not really justice at all.

I remind the House that, despite £2 million-worth of damage being caused by last year’s riots, not a single inquiry has or will be held. A paltry sum of less than £150,000 was spent on the Riots Communities and Victims Panel. That contrasts with the staggering £6 million and counting that has been spent on the Leveson inquiry. What hope is there of reaching an accurate and comprehensive account of the events that led to the riots, when it has been made clear that an inquiry, let alone an inquest, is simply not on the coalition Government’s list of priorities?

Securing justice is not always about finding an answer; it can be about asking the questions. When evidence is withheld from the public for no good reason, we cannot claim that justice has been sought. An honest, open and fair society seeks to overcome obstacles in the path of finding justice for its citizens. When justice is obstructed due to misguided legislation, as in this case, it falls to politicians to clear the way. No political party has a monopoly on justice. Finding out what caused an individual to die in suspicious circumstances is not a partisan issue. That is why I am grateful for the support of hon. Members and in particular the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), who is in his place. That this debate is taking place is testimony to the cross-party will to ensure that public inquests remain a pillar of the British judicial system.

There is a principle in our justice system known as the rule of admissibility. It means that any evidence deemed relevant to a trial should be presented in court. That eminently reasonable legal principle forms the basis not just of fully informed trials, but of the open, fair and impartial judicial system that we, as British citizens, are entitled to expect. We cannot claim that we operate such a judicial system when existing legislation means that crucial bits of evidence remain inadmissible in court.

We certainly cannot claim judicial superiority when we are the only country in the world that does not permit the use in court of material gathered by interception. In the United States, intercept evidence has secured the conviction of al-Qaeda plotters and the most slippery of New York Mafia dons. At an international level, intercept evidence has allowed the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia to convict Yugoslav war criminals.

The ban on intercept material in British courts contradicts not just our notions of judicial fairness, but our common sense. We are repeatedly reminded of the importance of intercept evidence, most often in the context of terrorism and national security, but increasingly in tackling domestic crime. It is staggering that when hours and weeks of time and great resources are put into gathering this evidence, particularly by our intelligence services, resulting in the detection of crime and the arrest of a criminal, most of the incriminating evidence has to remain hidden. Cases that involve intercept material are invariably complex. How many terrorists, drug dealers, paedophiles and other criminals have eluded conviction not because of a lack of evidence but because that evidence could not be heard in a court?

That cases should fall at the last hurdle is an immense frustration to anyone who has a desire to see justice achieved, not least police forces themselves. It was with that sense of frustration that I wanted to bring the matter to the House. I am, however, far from the first individual to do so. Since as far back as 2005, MPs, Lords, lawyers and even Attorneys-General have bravely stepped up and asked for the ban to be lifted, yet the sword in the stone of section 17 of RIPA stands stuck fast.

Between 2005 and 2008, no fewer than seven reports on the issue were submitted to Ministers. It reared its head in 2008 in the counter-terrorism debate, and again in debates on the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. In a display of remarkable consensus, the Metropolitan police, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the Crown Prosecution Service, Governments and Home Secretaries have expressed a desire to amend section 17. Indeed, the issue has united the most stubborn of bedfellows, as the coalition agreement commits to finding

“a practical way to allow the use of intercept evidence in court.”

I remind the House of the Privy Council review also known as the Chilcot report, commissioned in 2007 to review the use of intercept evidence. A welcome step, we might say, but unfortunately not a bold enough one. A series of reports have confirmed what any Member can tell us—that there is political consensus in favour of permitting the use of intercept evidence in court. On receiving the initial inquiry report in 2009, the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), stated:

“The issues involved are complex and difficult, and addressing them commensurately challenging. But the importance of our interception capabilities to national security and public protection means that there can be no short cuts.”

With all due respect to him, after seven years in a three-year period, I think we can say that no short cuts had been taken at all.

Yet here we are again, debating in “Groundhog Day” fashion an issue that already has cross-party support. The Prime Minister himself has declared that he would prefer to use intercept evidence than not use it. On visiting New York following the conviction of John Gotti, the former Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith hailed the use of intercept evidence as a “vital tool”. Eminent Law Lords such as Lord Lloyd of Berwick have challenged the ban as well. If the use of intercept material promotes national security, combats domestic crime and maintains faith in public expressions of justice, why does its use in court remain prohibited?

Although our attention today is focused on section 17 of RIPA, it was that Act’s predecessor, the Interception of Communications Act 1985, that implemented the statutory ban on the use of intercept material in court. In 1985, the UK found herself condemned by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg for permitting the tapping of phone calls. The use of intercept evidence to convict an antiques dealer selling goods of dubious origin led to the use of such evidence being deemed to fall short of the European convention on human rights. Without the cloak of a legal or administrative framework, the UK found herself exposed. Chastised by Strasbourg, the then Prime Minister, Thatcher, passed the 1985 Act, which contained the provision that evidence obtained by interception was inadmissible in court.

Section 17 of RIPA superseded the 1985 Act, ensuring that the exclusion of intercept material from legal proceedings was maintained. So strongly worded was that Act that it went even further, banning not just the use of intercept material but the disclosure that any sort of interception may have taken place. The passing of those successive Acts is the legislative equivalent of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut: unwieldy in the hands of its users, undiscriminating in its target and wholly unsuited to the job. All I ask is for us to allow exceptions to section 17, but for them to be enshrined in legislation.

If we really want to secure and maintain open justice, the ability to use intercept material in court must become more than an exception that results from hours of detailed and all-too-painful legal wrangling. Unless the legislation changes, we will find ourselves in a similar situation in the Mark Duggan case, still waiting for a public inquest years after the shooting took place. We will be in a judicial environment in which a public inquiry is seen as nothing more than a sop or an exercise in appeasement. I need to underline the question of why an inquiry of that nature following such a death—it led to four days of rioting—cannot be appropriate. The creep into major domestic cases must be of great concern to our country. Unless we legislate to ensure the admissibility of intercept evidence in court, our instruments of justice will remain insufficiently sharp to penetrate to the core of the most challenging of cases.

Members of the intelligence service and section 17 defenders, such as Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, herself a distinguished officer in the intelligence services, have expressed a fear that the use of intercept evidence could jeopardise interception techniques. It is claimed that by sharing intercept material with the public during an inquest we risk arming the jihadist, the drug smuggler and the people trafficker with the foreknowledge of how we intend to get them into court in the first place.

As has been noted, one does not exactly need high level disclosure to know that the police monitor phone lines as a surveillance method. Does that mean that potential criminals no longer communicate by phone, however? Of course not. The most rookie burglar knows of fingerprint detection, but does that mean that criminals are no longer caught in that way, even in the age of gloves? Of course it does not.

It is claimed that 21st century spookery is so developed that no one except a select few can fully grasp the complexity of interception techniques. That might be true and of course I do not doubt the advances made by or the skills of our intelligence services and I certainly do not want to compromise the hugely important work done by GCHQ in particular. I emphasise, however, that permitting the use of intercept material in court will in no way contradict the hard work done by those services. By making a distinction between domestic crimes and terrorism, we can ensure that the British judicial system can make use of intercept evidence without compromising national security. I refer to America, where different procedures determine how intercept evidence is used in court depending on whether the material was gathered by law enforcement agencies or intelligence agencies.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

I am very interested in my right hon. Friend’s last point and he is making a powerful case for allowing intercept evidence to be used in court. However, he says that there might be exceptions for counter-terrorism. Might there be exceptions in serious and organised crime cases so that they can be exempt from automatic disclosure? There is a difference between evidence that should be allowable and used in court and cases when authorities need to prevent the source of their evidence from being disclosed to prevent the exposure of how it is obtained.

[Mr Lammy]

My hon. Friend raises a very important point. Of course, serious and organised crime is dealt with by a particular agency and it would be for a Home Secretary to determine whether it would fall within the scope of any provisions.

Let me move on to the other steps that can be taken to ensure that we do not compromise and that we separate the material from the means. Successive Home Secretaries have been concerned about the means, when there is really a need to separate the means from the material provided.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman and for the particular problem that has led him to take this position. I hope, however, that he does not underestimate the complexity of the task—something I have also been engaged in—of finding a way to achieve what we all agree is desirable. A combination of the disclosure requirements that operate in English courts, and article 6 of the European convention on human rights, could lead to massive requirements for retention and transcribing, and that could impair the operating efficiency of our security and intelligence services.

[Mr Lammy]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman who I know has huge experience in these matters. Inquests have been with us since shortly after the Domesday Book, and if other major jurisdictions can crack this complexity, surely we in our developed democracy should be able to do the same.

Surveillance evidence has long been admissible in court. The police can eavesdrop on a conversation in a pub, and use the evidence in court. Someone’s phone conversation can be recorded on a microphone hidden under a desk and played back in court. If something is recorded, it is fine. There is only a problem if the conversation is contemporaneous, which seems strange.

If someone’s call is intercepted in a foreign country where intercept evidence is admissible—that is the case in every country other than the United Kingdom—that material can come before the courts. That is absurd. If sensitive material gathered by any other means can be heard in court, from transcripts of telephone surveillance to the account of an informant—informants are obviously important in this context—why can we not find a way to make contemporaneous intercept evidence admissible, handling the sensitivity of that material with due care?

We must dispose of the notion that intercept evidence is categorically more sensitive than evidence gathered by other means such as surveillance or informants. Evidence of any other kind is handled based on the sensitivity of the material, but that is not so with intercept evidence, which is the only evidence that has a blanket, categorical ban. In practice, it means that evidence from a phone interception of a conversation detailing a planned robbery is categorically inadmissible in court. At the same time, detection of a human trafficking ring through highly sensitive material provided by an informant faces no such categorical ban.

Of course, no hon. Member would wish to compromise the gathering of intelligence, but I wish to put to one side the notion that because maintaining records of intercept evidence may require logistical consideration, it is not worth doing. If intercept evidence recorded in another country is good enough for the eyes and ears of the British public, how can we maintain the position that evidence intercepted on our soil is not? If America, Canada and Australia allow intercept material to be used in court, one might suppose that the logistical hurdles are not insurmountable.

It simply does not hold true that removing the ban imposed by section 17 of RIPA would hamper the secret services from developing interception technology without exposing their methods to the public. Admitting intercept evidence in court would not restrict the way such evidence is collected any more than existing legislation. The British justice system already has a system that allows prosecutors to disclose material without disclosing its source. Given the strong similarity between admissible surveillance evidence and inadmissible intercept evidence, surely a similar system of disclosure could be applied. Indeed, a framework for making intercept evidence permissible in court already exists in public interest immunity plus. Public interest immunity is already used in cases where admissible surveillance data are heard. I see no reason why a similar safeguard cannot be applied to intercept evidence that has been made admissible in court. As with all difficult tasks, implementing a comprehensive safeguard will not be straightforward, but we cannot afford to give up on challenging the ban.

Yes, the Government have received legal advice against public interest immunity plus in the light of European Court of Human Rights rulings on similar cases from Finland in 2008, and public interest immunity may need refining, but to take the ECHR rulings as a definitive rejection of the principle of a Home Secretary or senior judge assessing the material and deciding which bit is relevant would go too far.

The alternative in amending the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 would allow a coroner to fulfil their role in determining the cause of death in mysterious circumstances. Such amendments were proposed in the Lords to the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. They proposed that the coroner nominated by the chief coroner should be able to see the intercept material and make a decision on its disclosure. Material would only be redacted when strictly necessary and in proportion to the public interest. If we wanted to go further, we could confine the role to the senior coroner in such cases.

I am not concerned with the question whether the state should intercept private communications between individuals. My concern lies with the ludicrous situation that there is a statutory ban on using material gathered through interception in court, despite a clear legal case for admitting it. That is a bizarre situation that leaves a family in my constituency without a full inquest into the death of their son more than a year since he was killed. That stubbornness might prevent there ever being an inquest into the death of Mark Duggan. That is unconscionable following the scenes of last August.

As it stands, section 17 represents legislation that obstructs, restricts and obfuscates—bad legislation. It is the House’s duty to return to the matter. Will the Minister say when Chilcot will end the reviewing period—it seems to have gone on for ever? The arrangements are small but necessary, and I hope we can make them. I do not want to compromise the important interception work that is done in cases throughout the country, but we should at least allow a senior coroner or judge, or the Home Secretary, through the use of public interest immunity, to look at the material and redact what is necessary to ensure that the means are not compromised.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I intend to call the winding-up speeches at 4.30 pm. Will hon. Members therefore be conscious that other Members wish to take part in the debate?

15:42

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who has done a sterling job of making the basic case, and, perhaps in some ways more importantly, of defending the interests and rights of his constituents, some of whom feel very aggrieved after the events of last year. I shall speak more briefly than he did and try to wrap around his argument, but hon. Members should forgive me if I repeat one or two things he has said.

The primary distinction between the great democracies of modern times and the totalitarian states is how they treat their citizens. We believe we treat our citizens in a civilised way compared with the totalitarian states—they will imprison, torture and, in the final analysis, kill without trail, whether they are Soviet or Nazi states, or any of the other species or flavours of totalitarian state that we have been unfortunate to see in past decades.

Emotionally, we might believe that we do not do those things because we are nicer people than they are, but the reason for the distinction—between totalitarian states and our state and similar ones such as America—is simply the rule of law. If colleagues want to test that, I suggest they consider the operations of the British state when it has operated outside the constraints of the rule of law, such as in Kenya during the Mau Mau rebellion, when well brought up, well educated, and no doubt expensively educated, men—it is always men—acted with a brutality that would have done justice to some of the totalitarian states to which I have referred. The rule of law prevents that by exposing acts of the state to judicial challenge and questioning, and that process is never more important than when a citizen of the state dies at the hands of an agency of the state. Since the 1997 general election, 38 people have been killed in Britain by police forces. In most cases, the inquest gave a verdict of lawful killing. In one that I am aware of, the Jean Charles de Menezes case, there was an open verdict, and some, of course, are still outstanding.

Although I will be critical of agencies of the state, I want to make one point: I am not criticising police officers operating on the front line as parts of the armed response units. Their job is sometimes terrifying. I was critical of what happened in the Jean Charles de Menezes case, but the policemen involved went on to a tube train not knowing whether the man they were seeking to apprehend was carrying a bomb that would have killed everybody on the tube train, including themselves. In other circumstances, the armed response units are deployed when they do not know whether the people they are seeking to apprehend or stop will shoot them or use armed force against them. It is easy in the cold environment of the Chamber not to understand the terror, fear and pressure on people in those circumstances. What I am about to say, therefore, is not a criticism of them.

That is not an excuse, however, for not knowing the full facts after the event or for pulling our legal punches. It is an absolute requirement that the killing of a British citizen by an agency of the state be properly and publicly reviewed, with access to all key data. That is the case for all sorts of reasons, some of which the right hon. Gentleman listed: to ensure that it is never done improperly and that there is never a deliberate killing by the state; to ensure that errors and accidents are never repeated; and to ensure that systemic failures are not repeated—very much an issue in the Jean Charles de Menezes case, and possibly an issue in the two cases to which he referred, the Rodney and Duggan cases.

Also, not equally important but still massively important, it is necessary to ensure that the public, the families and the communities from which the people come have confidence in the system. The mother of a young man who has been shot should never feel that her son has been judicially—or, indeed, extra-judicially—executed. I am afraid that, in at least one case, that appears to be the situation. It is essential, therefore, that we have an open and fully informed inquest after every single fatal operation of the state against an individual, because that is what keeps us a civilised state. As the right hon. Gentleman said, in two cases that is either not possible or likely not to be possible: the Azelle Rodney case, which has already gone to a judicial inquiry, and potentially in the Mark Duggan case.

As outlined, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000

“specifically bars any evidence in court, or any question, assertion or disclosure in legal proceedings, which results from warranted interception or would reveal that warranted interception had taken place.”

As the right hon. Gentleman said, that is an incredibly draconian restriction. That quotation came from the Chilcot committee’s summary. As a result, the Azelle Rodney case has gone to judicial inquiry, and, as I said, the Duggan case might well follow suit. This is a massive problem for the families and communities involved, but it is also a massive problem for open justice and a handicap for our national security.

Some years ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and I went to the United States to talk to people about the whole question of the use of intercept. We talked to the National Security Agency, to the FBI—I think—to the Department of Justice and to the National Counterterrorism Centre. I have probably forgotten some of the other organisations, but every one of them said exactly the same thing: in summary, they could not do their jobs without the use of intercept in court. If I can quote him approximately correctly, the Department of Justice representative said, “If we go to a case”—either a major gang case, a major gangsterism or organised crime case, or a terrorism case—“and there is not intercept, the jury wonder what’s happened. They wonder why we have not got the intercept.” The idea that the criminals involved do not know that intercept technology is being used is therefore laughable—I use that word carefully. I will come back to that point.

Incidentally, the Department of Homeland Security is another place we went to. The homeland security gentleman we spoke to—I cannot remember whether he was the deputy director or the head, but he was one or the other—said he could not understand why the British took the stance they took. It was quite clear that, for the Americans, intercept was not just a marginal advantage; it was a massive advantage in the fight against organised crime and terror. Similarly, the Australian evidence—we did not go to Australia—is much the same. There are some categories of case that simply cannot proceed without intercept—in particular, cases involving the importation of drugs. Again, the Australians said that anybody who does not use intercept is not acting seriously—that was the phrase of, I think, the director of public prosecutions federally in Australia.

We are the only major democracy to have such a bar to the use of intercept evidence. The arguments are essentially twofold. First, if criminals knew they were being intercepted, they would cease to use the telephone or whatever medium was being intercepted, and that would lead to the loss of valuable intelligence. The right hon. Member for Tottenham made suitably short work of that viewpoint in his argument. Secondly, criminals might be able to work out the methods by which the intercept evidence had been obtained if it were used in court.

In a minute I shall quote at some length from Lord Lloyd of Berwick; I should remind the House that he was a senior Law Lord and head of the Security Commission for most of the ’90s. He was the man whom the last Conservative Government asked to review the entire sweep of terrorist legislation and to revise it for them, and the last Labour Government implemented everything he recommended. That is how authoritative this man is. He is the man who knows more about this subject than anybody else in Britain—full stop—and he has tabled a Bill in the Lords to try to bring forward the change in the restriction that we are debating.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick said the following about the legal position:

“In common with every other common-law country, we have developed a means of protecting sensitive information that is thought to be at risk in some way. The principle is called public interest immunity; there is nothing new about it. It is well understood in the courts. I do not say that it is used every day but it is used very frequently.”

He then set out where it came from and said:

“It is inconceivable that a judge would order documents to be disclosed, or information to be discovered, that would reveal methods used by GCHQ and other agencies. If the judge went off his head and did so order, the prosecution would at once appeal to the Court of Appeal, which would put the situation right.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 16 March 2007; Vol. 690, c. 967.]

That is clear and it is clearly correct. In fact, throughout the entire period, over decades, when we faced the Soviet threat, which, I have to say to the House, was much bigger than the al-Qaeda threat—it was more sophisticated, more dangerous and more existential—never once was what Lord Lloyd of Berwick described broken. Never once did a judge release into the public domain the sorts of the things that we are concerning ourselves with in this debate.

Those who support the current ban then say, “But the European Court of Human Rights can overrule us and release this information to the criminals and the terrorists.” Actually, that is not the case. Using British criminal cases alone, we have clear direction and precedent. In Rowe and Davies v. United Kingdom 2000, the ECHR clearly stated that

“as the applicants recognised, the entitlement to disclosure of relevant evidence is not an absolute right. In any criminal proceedings there may be competing interests, such as national security or the need to protect witnesses at risk of reprisals or keep secret police methods of investigation of crime, which must be weighed against the rights of the accused. In some cases it may be necessary to withhold certain evidence from the defence so as to preserve the fundamental rights of another individual or to safeguard an important public interest.”

I have not seen that put any clearer in any British court—that was the Strasbourg Court’s view—and that was not the only case. Almost exactly the same words were repeated in a subsequent case, Botmeh and Alami v. United Kingdom 2007. As Lord Lloyd said,

“there is no absolute right to disclosure: disclosure is always subject to the overriding interest of national security.”

Before I go on to outline the other inconsistencies, I want to point out that I think it highly unlikely that the ECHR would ever instruct us to release information. I know of cases in which it has admonished Governments for the destruction of information, but I know of no case in which it has instructed them to release it. Even if it did so, we demonstrated pretty clearly in a Backbench Business Committee debate on prisoners’ votes some time ago that, if the House so decides, it can defy an ECHR judgment if it thinks that it is against the national interest. At the end of the day, that is our final recourse. I cannot imagine the House doing anything other than voting against disclosure, if we were instructed to release such information. There has been a tendency for the agencies, which are understandably nervous of exposure to the courts, to overstate the risk. That was the one weakness in the otherwise powerful Chilcot report.

It is an astonishing inconsistency, as the right hon. Member for Tottenham pointed out, that we can use foreign intercept evidence but not our own. A stark and, frankly, embarrassing example of that came to light after the Heathrow bomb plot, when the agencies had to obtain from Yahoo in California parallel intercept evidence to the evidence that I suspect they had in their own files. I cannot say that they had it, but I suspect that they did. I cannot think of a more laughable demonstration of the stupidity of the policy than our having to go to a foreign country to get evidence that we almost certainly already had.

A second inconsistency is that we can use bugging, as the right hon. Gentleman also pointed out. If my telephone call to my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton were intercepted, that evidence could not be used, but if there were a bug in my phone, the evidence could be used. Is one more secret than the other, or more dangerous to disclose? I think not. We might want to withhold from criminals the knowledge that we were using a laser microphone and interferometry —a high-tech mechanism—but we could use that evidence in court, whereas we could not use intercept evidence. That strikes me as laughable.

There is a third aspect of the matter that is laughable. The right hon. Gentleman said that GCHQ was a competent and capable organisation, and I agree with him. However, in this type of work, which is complex but not incomprehensible, our sophistication, capability, skills, innovations and edge are all a function of the amount of money that is spent. That is why we spend more money on GCHQ than on the other two agencies put together, but that is as nothing—a drop in the ocean—compared with what the American agencies use. They have no problem at all with placing their information in the public domain.

Furthermore, we have the internet. Any terrorist or criminal operating in the UK can look on the internet and find examples of the things that we are supposed to be concealing. Let me provide a topical example. The other day we were told about a particular technique that one of the agencies wanted to protect. For obvious reasons, I cannot talk about it, but just out of curiosity I googled it. Guess what? There is an article about it on an American site, outlining exactly how it happens and how it is used. If our criminals and terrorists want to know about this technique, they need only reach for that fierce weapon of a Google search. This is simply ridiculous; we are hiding things that everywhere else in the world are in open sight, and I do not believe that we have skills so much greater than those of our allies and contemporaries to justify protecting ours above and beyond theirs.

In my opinion we can safely allow intercept evidence in court without jeopardising our intelligence-gathering techniques above and beyond where they are now. However, my opinion is as nothing in comparison with the learned judgments of the most eminent security commission in modern times, for a start, and of at least two previous Directors of Public Prosecution, not to mention past Attorneys-General—I was corrected on the language by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips)—previous heads of the Met, previous incumbents of Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and a whole series of people who have been up close and personal with these issues. All of them want to use such information in court. I take their opinion with at least as much seriousness as I take the opinion of currently operating agencies which might be embarrassed about coming out into the public domain.

These experts, moreover, point to fact that every major country uses such evidence without risk. It allows serious terrorists and criminals to be apprehended and convicted and, as has been intimated, the head of every single one of five mafia families in New York is now in prison. That would not be true without intercept. There are terrorists in prison today who would not be in prison without intercept. That is true in every country from America to Australia.

The previous Government saw this problem as a serious handicap to our system—I give them that credit; I think they were open-minded about this—and set up the Chilcot Privy Council review of intercept evidence, which recommended careful reform of the law to allow the use of such evidence in court. I have some quibbles with it, but I think it is a pretty good report generally. That decision was then derailed by the Government’s and agencies’ over-interpretation of a case, Natunen v. Finland, in which the European Court on Human Rights rebuked the Finnish Government for destroying exculpatory intercept evidence.

The ECHR was right to rebuke the Finnish Government on that. Evidence was not forced into the public domain, because it had already been destroyed. The Finnish Government took it on the chin and changed the basis for treatment pretty much straight away by introducing a judge to decide the process. That is fine. That Government have continued to use intercept. Since then, nothing has happened in Britain. As a result, the inquest over Azelle Rodney has been disallowed, and we now have a judicial inquiry. To remind Members of what happened to Azelle Rodney, he was shot with an assault rifle from a range of only 15 metres about half a dozen times. He died. Guns were found in the car he was in, so there might well have been good reason for the action taken, but we will never know because of this foolish and unwise restriction. As a result, his family is in a permanent state of grief, which will never be allayed by a judicial inquiry. If we do not put this right, the family of Mark Duggan and his community will be in the same position.

It is time to put this matter right, and time we allowed these communities, families and people to know the truth, whatever the truth may be. It is also time that we gave the wider national community the enhanced security that would arise from a reform of the law, and the added protection that intercept evidence gives them—the ability to prosecute and convict serious criminals and terrorists. Finally, it is time we stopped asking our judicial authorities to act with one hand tied behind their back, and gave them the right to operate the law as it should be operated—with full knowledge of, and full insight into, the issues they have to resolve for us.

16:04

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in such an important debate. We have already heard two extremely powerful speeches, from the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy).

I want to concentrate on the specific issue of the use of intercept evidence in court and other judicial proceedings. Looking around the Chamber, I think that I am probably the only Member present who has had to sign warrants for the tapping of phones. I did it for three years as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and it was a very burdensome and awesome task. I knew, when I had to perform that task on every single day of the week, that I was depriving someone of his or liberty, and possibly doing something that was contrary to my better instincts, but I also knew that at the end of the day I was doing it to preserve life, to destroy terrorism, and to prevent criminals from doing the things that they did.

I believe that—certainly in Northern Ireland, although I also had to sign warrants for the Home Office—many hundreds, indeed thousands, of lives were saved by the use of intercept evidence, which enabled us to prevent the sort of outrages to which, unfortunately, we had become accustomed over a period of 30 years. I do not think that this is an easy matter, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman or my right hon. Friend gave the impression that it was an easy thing to do. What they were saying was that it was an issue that we ought to address.

The agencies and the police have made points that I think we ought to consider. The problem relating to disclosure in courts is huge, given our legal system. The revealing of technology and methodology has important implications, because criminals and terrorists are becoming more sophisticated by the day when it comes to the use of intercept and how to deal with it. As I have said, the issues are not easy.

Both the right hon. Gentleman and my right hon. Friend made the important point that every other country in the world uses intercept evidence. There is a different legal system in continental Europe. However, Australia, the United States, New Zealand and Canada, our most important allies in these matters, are not burdened—if that is the right word to use—by the European Court of Human Rights, and I think that we should take the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the European Court very seriously.

The other occasion on which I had to deal with the issue was when, as chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee—wearing a very different hat—I had to oversee the use of intercept. Having done it myself, I had to oversee what Secretaries of State did, with, of course, the enormous help of the Interception of Communications Commissioner.

The Chilcot report made some important points. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) has been a distinguished member of the Chilcot Privy Council committee considering intercept as evidence for some time now. The agencies have produced some powerful arguments in favour of safeguards; the Chilcot inquiry came up with a long list of protections which I think the Government should examine very carefully, and which should be implemented in every single instance.

However, looking at the intelligence that was given to me over a period of years and which we have used as a consequence of intercept—privately but not in courts—I have felt at times that terrorists and criminals could have been brought to justice and put behind bars had we used intercept evidence in court proceedings, in certain very special circumstances. I have thought very carefully about this, and I can see the arguments from both sides, but I have reached the conclusion that we must continue to think very hard about trying to ensure that we can use intercept evidence, however difficult that might be. As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, when we go abroad and talk to people from other agencies similar to our own, we find that they are incredulous that we cannot use intercept evidence in our courts, given that every other country does. Difficult though this is, I urge the Minister and the Government to keep on trying. The danger in this debate is that we will give up and say, “It is not worth the bother. It is too difficult, so let’s not carry on any more.” There is now an onus on the Minister and his colleagues in government to ensure that we continue the debate and finally find a solution on this difficult issue.

16:09

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

I, too, pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) for raising this issue and for the way he has done so, particularly in relation to his constituents, but also in respect of the wider issues of justice at stake. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), I wish to discuss the big picture and then address specific issues relating to counter-terrorism and white collar crime.

The big picture is that in this country, particularly since 9/11, we have somehow started to view the justice system as an impediment to fighting crime and to law enforcement, rather than as something that is integral to and part of the solution. My view is that the justice system is a weapon, because without it and its integrity law enforcement will always be subject to flaws, be open to challenge and be fickle and fragile. Over the past 10 years, the prosecutorial edge that we have in this country has, if anything, started to become blunter, because of these prevailing attitudes.

In a cross-party debate that is being conducted in an admirable tone and spirit, I must make some criticism of the previous Government. Nobody doubts the pressures on government, given that the first duty is to protect the public, but since 9/11 and 7/7 we have seen a trend of excessive, hyperactive legislation, coupled with increasing surveillance, not just of terrorists and serious criminals but of the ordinary, average citizen. I am thinking of identity cards; the surveillance of not just terrorist suspects but people responsible for fly-tipping, dog pooping and so on; and the current proposals on the internet and e-mail, and text and BlackBerry messaging, which are really a rehash of earlier proposals under the previous Government.

While we have had this ever-expanding criminal legislative base and net of surveillance, it seems that the one set of characters we are getting worse at tackling and bringing to justice using that surveillance are the terrorists. Between 2006 and 2010 convictions for terrorism offences fell by close to three quarters—75% is a massive drop at a time when we supposedly have an ever-increasing threat, a massively expanding criminal base and ever more use of surveillance. Despite all that we cannot address the No. 1 priority, which all in this House would agree is counter-terrorism. Incredibly, the most serious seem to slip through the ever-expanding net of surveillance.

There are various aspects to what I regard as a serious and substantial prosecutorial deficit in this country. I understand the English Bar’s concerns about plea bargaining, but without going the whole hog and adopting the American approach we could make an incremental and stronger use of plea bargaining, particularly in cases of “joint criminal enterprise”, where concentric circles of active criminal participants are involved. We need to look at the issue of plea bargaining.

We also need to have a far more robust prosecutorial policy. We saw with the Abu Hamza case the tendency of the intelligence agencies to sit back and watch, whereas he should have been nailed the minute he did something that crossed the line—the Americans take the latter approach. We saw the same thing at the time of the protests in 2006 against the Danish cartoons: eventually there were four convictions for the clear and flagrant criminal activity of inciting violence and murder but, boy, were we slow to respond. What message does it send if it takes six weeks to arrest people who were advocating murder on the streets of this country? We need to be more robust in the use of prosecution, because it is a weapon.

The real missing piece in the jigsaw puzzle has been intercept evidence. I make no claim that it is the silver bullet or some kind of touchstone panacea, but its law enforcement value is beyond doubt. We are, as others have said, alone in the democratic world in not taking advantage of it.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden discussed the visit that he and I made to Washington in 2007, taking in the White House, the FBI and all the relevant law enforcement agencies. The impact there of intercept evidence is clear in action against kingpin mafia dons and counter-terrorism. An excellent report by Justice in 2007 reviewed 10 US terrorism plots involving 50 suspects since 9/11. The US authorities secured charges and convictions in each case using a 48-hour maximum pre-charge detention limit—bear in mind the debate we had in this country—and in every single case, that was made possible by intercept evidence.

Former US Assistant Attorney General Ken Wainstein argues that intercept evidence is a vital part of the preventive strand of US counter-terrorism strategy—not just the prosecutorial, but the preventive strand—because of the disruption it causes in the concentric circles of terrorist actors. The way the US authorities use it in the joint criminal enterprise approach is to use plea bargaining to turn the minnows against the big fish and then work their way up the ladder, so to speak. Its disruptive impact is not only powerful in and of its own right, but it also has a strong deterrent effect.

The Australian Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, Damian Bugg QC, has highlighted the value of intercept evidence in drug trafficking cases, as well as terrorism cases. When asked about the analogous position in Britain, he says:

“The use of telephone intercepts in trials for terrorism offences and other serious crimes is now quite common in Australia and I cannot understand why England has not taken the step as well.”

Senior Canadian prosecutors make precisely the same point. We also have the evidence from our own law enforcement officials. The former DPP Sir Ken, now Lord, Macdonald told the Home Affairs Committee in 2009:

“If we had intercept available as an evidential tool and if we were directing intercept capability towards the gathering of evidence, I am absolutely confident that our experience would mirror the experience of other jurisdictions where it is used very frequently to great effect”.

The current DPP has drawn similar conclusions. He told the Committee:

“Evidence obtained by interception would be of benefit to prosecution in this country, particularly in respect of counter-terrorism and organised crime.”

That was not some abstract conclusion. He continued:

“I base that answer on an analysis of the cases where we have been able to use foreign intercept evidence. There have recently been 11 such cases involving organised crime. In eight of those cases, there were pleas of guilty based on foreign intercept evidence.”

We are missing a massive trick in this country. As others have mentioned, the assistant commissioner for counter-terrorism in the very difficult period between 2005 and 2007, Andy Hayman, said that while he began as a sceptic about the value of intercept evidence, he was turned around. Although I respect the Chilcot review and its conclusions, I have to say that in the light of the evidence made available both in this country and abroad by people who have taken a big picture, overarching and strategic view, I cannot accept that intercept is not of serious and substantial law enforcement value.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton—[Hon. Members: “That’s you.”] I am sorry; I meant my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden. I was confused because he was referring to me.

[Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

And you made yourself a Privy Counsellor.

[Mr Raab]

I think it is the only way I will get promotion these days.

It is an anomaly that we have so many other sources of sensitive information that can be used in UK courts. What is so special about intercept evidence? The objections to its use—certainly those from Chilcot and other reviews—cluster around three or four issues. We have heard about article 6, the threat of disclosure of sensitive sources and the inadequacy of public interest immunity, but the truth is that every other jurisdiction that uses intercept evidence has a killer back-stop: if they fear disclosure, they drop the charges. There is zero risk of disclosure because the option of dropping charges and dropping a prosecution is always available.

Another argument that has been made ad tedium is that a disproportionate part of the resources of the intelligence agencies, particularly GCHQ, would be absorbed, but that argument, which relates to transcription of the evidence, has been made almost totally redundant by modern information and communications technology and the ability to use it to store data and subsequently search it. That argument has therefore fallen by the wayside, but even so, the senior prosecutors I mentioned have made the point that the costs, to the extent that there are costs involved, are more than offset by the increasing number of people who plead guilty as a result of the use of intercept evidence.

I will refer briefly to the Natunen case, because there has been a huge amount of misreporting of its impact and what it really means for the use of intercept evidence. The 2009 Home Office report, and other GCHQ sources, point to the Natunen case and claim that it requires

“full retention of all intercepted material”

just in case it might include something that shows a suspect is innocent. That is simply an inaccurate reflection of the Strasbourg case law. In the Natunen case, which concerned a drug dealer who was convicted in Finland using intercept evidence, the Strasbourg Court emphasises that

“disclosure of relevant evidence is not an absolute right”,

acknowledging

“competing interests, such as national security or the need to protect witnesses”.

The Court stated that it was not its role

“to decide whether or not such non-disclosure was strictly necessary since, as a general rule, it is for the national courts to assess the evidence before them.”

Far from requiring “full retention”—this is the key point—the Strasbourg Court required that defence requests for disclosure of sensitive evidence be backed up by “specific and acceptable reasons”. The intelligence agencies would need to retain some relevant material. However, the Court made it clear that that necessitated neither defence access to that evidence nor the wholesale retention of all intercept material. In the Finnish case, it merely required that a judicial body approve the destruction by the intelligence agencies of relevant intercept material, collected over a limited three-week period. Frankly, I think that the Natunen case has been blown out of all proportion.

The real issue—I do not think that the agencies are making this up—is not the Aunt Sally or the false reasons that have been put up and are rebutted by the empirical evidence. The real reason is that GCHQ, which was originally an intercept organisation confined to the military zone, has had its functions broadened to include counter-terrorism and other serious crimes. Its role has increased exponentially. I can see why it worries about lack of focus and the huge competing obligations being placed on it with finite resources, notwithstanding the increases in its budget. I understand that, but that is a strategic issue of tasking intelligence, not a technical issue of viability.

Likewise, the fact is that we face a cultural shift with regard to law enforcement and the division between intelligence and prosecution. It is a shift that has taken place in other countries but that our authorities have not yet to bridge and overcome. There is a cultural aversion in this country to combining intelligence with prosecution, and I think that we have to overcome it.

[Mr David Davis]

I have long thought, partly as a result of the Northern Ireland experience, that our intelligence agencies are predisposed to go for disruption rather than prosecution. The whole nexus of the things my hon. Friend describes, their attitude to the use of intercept evidence and the problems addressing the exponential increase in GCHQ reinforce that. Does that not support the argument that a step change is needed from a disruptive approach to a prosecutorial approach, which is clearly what the Americans do, and with more success than us?

[Mr Raab]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention and agree entirely. The other point to make is that the disruption model that has previously been used was shown to fail because of the huge increase in the number of terrorism suspects that successive heads of MI5 made clear in the public annual reports.

I am conscious of the time and want to make two points in closing. First, I think that the use of intercept evidence is not just confined to inquests, as important as the points made by the right hon. Member for Tottenham are, and not even just to counter-terrorism. We have seen in relation to the LIBOR scandal an incredible situation in which rate rigging, according to the Government’s proposals, now requires a separate criminal legislative proposal. I find it astonishing that it is not an evidential issue, rather than the lack of a criminal base.

Again, if we probe a little further into the work of the Serious Fraud Office and the Crown Prosecution Service, we find a very sleepy prosecutorial approach. Conviction for fraud by company directors fell by 48% between 2004 and 2010. Convictions for fraudulent accounting, which seem to me to be exactly what the rate rigging scandal was all about, fell by 77%. We need to wake up and stop having this interminable debate, which feels like a legislative version of “Groundhog Day”, about intercept evidence, to get on with lifting the ban and to use that evidence. The justice system is a weapon for, not an impediment to, law enforcement, and intercept evidence in prosecution must lie at its heart.

16:25

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly in this debate. I confess that I hesitated to contribute, given the authoritative speeches made so far, especially by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), who speaks with great authority, and by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who has a great track record on these matters.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and his right hon. ally the Member for Haltemprice and Howden have done a demolition job on the status quo. I have not considered these matters as closely as I should have over the years; I have had other responsibilities and trusted the judgment and advice of colleagues. However, having been on the initial police parliamentary scheme, I am now doing a graduate scheme and looking at these matters more closely. The opportunity to come to this debate and listen to people with great experience has been valuable and of great interest.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) made a powerful point. He said that we had not got the issue right so far. There have been reasons why we have not changed the rules. The Chilcot inquiry, and the role of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) in that, have been well documented, but we must keep trying.

Both parties have been in power and both have decided that we are staying with the status quo; Home Secretaries of the left and right from both parties have stuck with the status quo. I only want to say that I am really looking forward to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), the shadow Home Office Minister, and of the Minister; I have a high regard for both. Given how anomalous we are among western democracies in not allowing intercept evidence and that the security and law enforcement agencies have clearly strongly advised against changing our position, I shall be interested to see whether there is any new thinking.

All the speeches have clearly shown that the issue is a major one of human rights, citizenship, democracy and transparency. This has been a very authoritative debate, and I am pleased to have been here to listen to it.

16:27

[Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Like the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), I hesitated to rise in this debate; I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on having secured it. His contribution and those of my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) have been extraordinary and among the best that I have heard on this subject since I have been in the House.

The debate has been extraordinary not only in its quality but in the fact that the House is having it yet again. I entered the House only in May 2010, yet the issue has been rumbling on not only in this Chamber but among lawyers—including those, such as me, who sit a few weeks a year judging crime—for a considerable period.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden is entirely right in saying that, as the position prevails at present, courts and prosecutorial authorities have one hand tied behind their backs. It is extraordinary that, as our colleagues from not only other democracies but other common law jurisdictions tell us, we are the only country that has never permitted the use of intercept evidence to secure the conviction of the guilty and—almost as importantly—the acquittal of the innocent.

Notwithstanding the powerful speeches from both sides of the House, I want to concentrate on one other point. While we continue to exclude such evidence from our prosecutions in this country, we run the risk of interfering with our civil liberties. It may be, of course, that, as the last Government said during the last Parliament, none of those on control orders could have been prosecuted even if intercept evidence had been capable of being used in the courts. However, that is the sort of thing that Governments always say because they have it on advice from their security advisers.

One of the things that has concerned me about the non-use of intercept evidence, which must compel us to move in the direction not only of looking at this question more closely but of coming to a resolution in favour of using such evidence, is that if we do permit it to be used we may end up with prosecutions in cases where hitherto we have had to use administrative measures that begin to interfere with people’s civil liberties. I hope that that is yet another reason why the Minister will be compelled to indicate to the House precisely when we will see the introduction of legislation in this context, in accordance with the recommendations not only of the whole House but of the Privy Counsellors who previously considered the matter.

16:30

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) on an excellent speech. He was, as usual, a very powerful advocate for his constituents and his constituency, and for open justice, which is very important. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), a near neighbour of mine, made his usual compelling case for open justice and cogently set out the key issues in this case.

The debate overall has been of an extremely high quality, with excellent contributions from across the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) made a very good speech based on his own practical experience and knowledge in a number of roles. It was telling that he said that this is not an easy matter and that we need to keep on looking very hard at the use of intercept evidence. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) set out a strong case for the motion and drew on his experience in the US. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) asked exactly the right questions, drawn from his practical experience with the police, about why we are not doing this and how we can move it forward. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) spoke briefly about civil liberties and, in particular, control orders. I want to return to his comments later.

Over recent years, successive Governments, and particularly Home Secretaries, have grappled with the problems of trying to get intercept evidence into courts, and it has also been considered by the Privy Council review, so it is absolutely right that Parliament is debating the matter. We have heard at length about the benefits that might reasonably be expected to result from the use of intercept evidence in courts and inquests as regards, for example, increases in the number of successful prosecutions in serious organised crime and terrorism cases. However, the debate must cover not only the benefits but the difficulties involved, including the risks, such as exposure of interception capabilities and techniques, the resource implications of any changes in the law, and the implications of new communications technology. While the United Kingdom continues to struggle to find a way of accommodating intercept evidence in court, other countries, as we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden, allow such evidence, and it is important for us to see what we can learn from those jurisdictions.

This is a very unusual issue. Successive Governments, the Privy Council and leading lawyers have long supported the principle of allowing intercept evidence, but none has been able to come up with a satisfactory model for the admission of such evidence without compromising national security. Labour has long supported the principle of allowing intercept evidence into courts. Indeed, the current push to find a way of doing this was started by my former right hon. Friend and Home Secretary, John Reid, the then Member for Airdrie and Shotts, in 2007, and that commitment was reiterated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) when he was Home Secretary. In opposition, my right hon. Friends the Members for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) and for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) have reiterated Labour’s desire to see intercept evidence in court and to work with the Government in a constructive manner to achieve that. I restate that commitment.

It is clear that there would be significant benefits in allowing intercept evidence to be admissible in a wider range of courts than is the case at present. In particular, it would be desirable to allow the use of intercept evidence in criminal proceedings and inquests.

I am sure that we all sympathise with the Duggan family, who, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham has said, have unanswered questions. Understandably, they and the community in Tottenham want answers as to how Mr Duggan died, but without an inquest those answers cannot be provided. The Government have proposed secret inquests in which intercept evidence would be admissible, but that would not solve the problem—not only do we need justice to be done, but we need it to be seen to be done. I hope that the Minister will update us on the progress that he has made on this particular issue and I look forward to hearing his comments.

Allowing intercept evidence would seem to support two fundamental principles of British justice. The first is that courts should always have the best evidence available to them, and the second is that all crimes should be dealt with by the same legal system and guided by the same principles. We should, wherever possible, ensure that our legal system is able to protect national security and uphold standards of justice.

We would also like the use of intercept evidence to lead to practical outcomes, such as more prosecutions, particularly for serious crimes and terrorism. It is generally accepted that allowing intercept evidence would have a significant impact on some trials, facilitating some prosecutions and making others more likely. Indeed, the Crown Prosecution Service thinks that allowing intercept evidence would result in more prosecutions and more convictions, and it foresees time and money being saved as a result of more guilty pleas. We would particularly like to see the prosecution of cases that could not otherwise be tried, including those in which intercept evidence has led to a prosecution, but not necessarily for the most serious crime committed. It is often cited that allowing intercept evidence would reduce the need for other measures aimed at countering terrorism, namely pre-charge detention and terrorism prevention and investigation measures, or control orders as they were formerly known.

We should not, however, overstate the practical benefits of allowing intercept evidence. I now want to turn to the point that the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made about control orders, or TPIMs as they are now known. The noble Lord Carlile, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, was unequivocal in saying that he felt that intercept evidence would not have made control orders obsolete. That was backed up by a report by an independent counsel commissioned by the Home Office. It concluded that allowing the use of intercept evidence would not be enough to facilitate trials in any of the cases of the nine people who were subject to control orders at the time. Indeed, the Privy Council concluded:

“We have not seen any evidence that the introduction of intercept as evidence would enable prosecutions in cases currently dealt with through Control Orders.”

[Mr David Davis]

I will put to one side one of the weaknesses of the Privy Council report, namely its assessment of the effectiveness of intercept in prosecutions, and take up the issue of control orders. When we eventually allowed the use of control orders, our presumption when in opposition was that they would allow the control of people who could not be prosecuted in the courts because the available evidence—in other words, intercept evidence—could not be used there. Now we are being told that such people are having their freedom removed on the basis of, in essence, suspicion, because there is nothing beyond intercept other than suspicion. Members on both Front Benches are in a Catch-22 situation: either intercept is effective in dealing with control orders, or control orders are being imposed on the basis of suspicion alone.

[Diana Johnson]

The right hon. Gentleman raises an issue that could be debated for many hours. I think that his first point—that evidence was available—is the correct one. However, a review has taken place and the view of the independent counsel, who was commissioned by the Home Office, is that what the right hon. Gentleman has said is not correct. I have only limited time left, so I will move on. We will have to differ on that.

The number of criminal cases in which intercept evidence might be used is limited. An independent survey conducted in 2004 concluded that allowing intercept evidence would secure no more than 20 to 30 additional convictions a year.

Under the current arrangements, intercept evidence is of significant use for the protection of national security and the detection of serious crime. The Privy Council’s report into intercept evidence gives an excellent summary of the importance of wiretapping to UK law enforcement agencies. Under the current arrangements, the UK is able to benefit from intelligence gleaned from wiretapping, without compromising intelligence capabilities. Wiretapping often facilitates the collection of other admissible forms of evidence.

The Serious Organised Crime Agency has stated that

“interception, together with communications data, is the single most powerful tool for responding to serious and organised crime.”

It is because the current regime is so successful that the Metropolitan police currently secure a conviction in 88% of cases where they have employed intercept evidence. It estimates that that would rise only to 92% if intercept evidence were to become admissible. The more sophisticated criminals become, the greater the need for more advanced detection techniques and the greater the need to protect those intelligence techniques.

Of course, we cannot discuss individual cases or the evidence involved in them in Parliament, but it is clear from independent studies that law enforcement and Security Service agencies have provided numerous examples of intercept evidence having been used to apprehend wanted criminals, seize drugs or stolen property, or alert law enforcement agencies of planned criminal activities, enabling them to gather the admissible evidence that they require. We must recognise the important role that wiretapping already plays in the fight against crime and terrorism, and the importance of not jeopardising that success. The Privy Council stressed its belief that:

“The overriding objective should be to promote national security.”

That has been the position of successive Governments, and is the position of the Opposition.

If there was an easy solution to this problem, it would have been produced, but there is not. I will touch on a few of the issues that have prevented previous Governments from allowing wire-tap evidence in court. I hope that the Minister will update the House on what progress has been made on each issue. How can we allow the use of intercept evidence in courts, while protecting the most sensitive information which, if made public, would reveal a particular intelligence technique or source, and while upholding the principle of the equality of arms, under which the defence must have access to and be able to present all the relevant information?

The central desire is to protect the work of the security services and the techniques that they use. Proponents of the use of intercept evidence often counter that by saying that criminals are already aware of the intelligence services’ ability to intercept calls. However, the Privy Council rejected that point and said that criminals’ knowledge is currently conjecture based on rumour and that, while a few of their presumptions may be right, the evidence is that most of them are wrong.

Partnership is important. Earlier, I set out some of the successes of the current regime. Those are based on partnership between law enforcement agencies and the security services, between the UK and our international allies, and between state agencies and communication service providers. There is concern that any attempt to allow intercept evidence in court would jeopardise those successful partnerships. Indeed, some communication service providers have indicated that it would make them much less willing to co-operate. I hope that the Minister will respond to those points.

Much has been said about other jurisdictions. I would appreciate it if the Minister again set out clearly the unique position of the United Kingdom’s legal system, which is very different from that of some of the other countries that have been cited, such as France and Spain.

In conclusion, we all want to have intercept evidence in court. We want answers for the families of those who have died in controversial circumstances, where an inquest cannot take place. However, we have to acknowledge that this is a complex process and that at stake is a system that has delivered a lot towards the protection of our national security and in tackling international crime. It is not clear that any other country uses intercept-gained evidence as effectively as the United Kingdom.

The Opposition will of course work with the Government to get intercept evidence into courts without compromising national security, and international examples, particularly from Canada and the US, give us some indication of how that might be achieved. I hope the Minister will be able to update the House on the progress that the Government have made towards that end, and particularly on what plans he has to allow inquests such as Mark Duggan’s to take place; what processes are currently under way to evaluate the practicalities involved in allowing intercept evidence; what processes are in place for the Government to take expert advice from lawyers, law enforcement agencies and the intelligence services to that end; and whether he has any plans to bring forward a Green Paper.

16:45

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), as other Members have done, on securing the debate. As it is a Back-Bench debate, I am conscious of the need to allow him some time to respond at the end, so I will try to keep my comments to the point and respond as succinctly as I am able to a number of points that have been raised.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman also on the manner and tone that he has brought to this afternoon’s discourse. I certainly recognise his desire to represent his constituents and obtain answers on behalf of his community. I know from discussions that we had around the time of the riots that he has stood up for his community in doing so, and that has been reflected in the manner in which the debate has been conducted.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman understands that because of ongoing legal and other issues, I cannot really comment on the specifics of individual cases. I am aware that the pre-inquest hearing in the case that he mentioned is due to be held next Tuesday, and there is an ongoing IPCC investigation. I certainly recognise the sensitivity of the issues that he has brought before the House this afternoon.

I pay tribute also to my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), whom I had the privilege to work alongside in opposition. I know how keenly he feels about these issues and the amount of work that he continues to put into answering the challenging question of how we can use intercept evidence.

We had an important contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). I certainly do not see the justice system as an impediment to fighting crime, and justice and security need to go hand in hand. I do not see them as somehow mutually inconsistent. The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), with his experience as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and in his role with the Intelligence and Security Committee, highlighted some of the genuine challenges that exist, which I shall discuss. We also heard contributions from the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), and a balanced and helpful contribution from the Opposition Front Bencher, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson).

I underline that the Government are committed to maximising the amount of sensitive material, including intercept evidence, that can be handled in legal proceedings. That is why we set out in the coalition agreement our intention to

“seek to find a practical way to allow the use of intercept evidence in court.”

We have also proposed measures in the Justice and Security Bill to permit intercepted material to be adduced in closed material procedures and certain civil proceedings. In doing that, we remain acutely aware that lawful interception already plays a critical role in tackling serious crime and protecting the British public. It is used in almost all the highest priority counter-terrorist operations and many other serious crime investigations. It is no exaggeration to say that interception constitutes one of the most important and effective capabilities in tackling serious crime and threats to our national security, so it is crucial that we get it right.

We have heard about the Privy Council review and the differing legal and operational circumstances that apply in that regard and it is worth highlighting the considerable burdens on some of the intercepting agencies. Inter-agency co-operation, such as the sharing of sensitive techniques, is less well developed in other countries than it is in the UK, but the comparable examples in other jurisdictions suggest that fewer investigations could be supported and the value of intercept evidence as an intelligence tool might be reduced. It is right, however, that we should continue to examine the examples highlighted in a number of speeches and find our way through this important question.

I should make it clear that when there is relevant and sensitive material, the Government wish to find a mechanism that will enable it to be used in evidence. Finding a means of using intercept as evidence is challenging, however. There can be no clearer demonstration of that than the seven previous attempts that have been made to find a way forward. Any proposal to remove the prohibition on intercept evidence for inquests, for example, runs into a number of difficulties, and we and previous Governments have grappled with them as they relate to the general question of intercept evidence.

One option proposed by the right hon. Member for Tottenham is the disclosure of intercept product to a jury and properly interested persons, such as a family member. This Government considered that, as did our predecessor, and we do not believe that there is a practical way of preserving national security and the basic tenets of the make-up of juries. Crucially, intercept products shared with either a jury or properly interested party takes us back to the more general challenges presented by intercept as evidence, including preventing sensitive capabilities, techniques and approaches from becoming widely known. As things stand, we do not see that there is a viable way forward on that specific point.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether it would be possible for a coroner with the status of a judge to view sensitive material, including intercept evidence. We already have a mechanism through which a coroner may request the appointment of a serving judge as an assistant deputy. That enables the judge coroner to order the disclosure of intercept evidence to him or herself alone when a case’s exceptional circumstances make that disclosure essential in the interests of justice.

The judge coroner would have access to all sensitive material and could consequently be satisfied that the material provided in open court was all that was necessary to hold a proper thorough investigation. That independent assessment would give assurance to the jury and comfort to the family that all the relevant material had been placed before them. Of course, in a small number of cases that sensitive material would be centrally relevant and the article 2 investigative obligation would be engaged. In those circumstances, a statutory inquiry would be needed so that the inquiry panel, as the finders of facts, could see all relevant material. The independent examination of the material, however, together with the appointment of counsel to the inquiry, should ensure that proper account is taken of all the available material and that the interests of the family are properly protected, even if the material cannot be shared publicly.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

I apologise that I was not in the Chamber to hear some of the earlier speeches. I have listened carefully to the Minister. Given what he has just said, will the Government think again about their decision not to provide for a closed material procedure for inquests—something they are prepared to provide in a small number of civil cases?

[James Brokenshire]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that matter was considered during discussions on the Justice and Security Bill currently in the other place, but the Government have determined that at this time it is not appropriate to bring those procedures forward. I hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman heard me say that there is an existing mechanism to assess sensitive material, either through the appointment of a judge coroner to assess the relevancy and centrality of the evidence, or through the inquiry process I have highlighted.

The intercept as evidence review is obviously key to this discussion. It is an extensive and detailed review to assess the benefits, costs, and risks of introducing intercept as evidence in criminal proceedings, compared with the present intelligence-only approach under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. It has a broader remit than previous reviews, thereby avoiding wasted effort on approaches that prove to be non-viable, or being artificially constrained by existing intercept practice. Instead, it will ensure a fair and comprehensive assessment of the pros and cons of intercept as evidence.

The issues are complex and difficult, and as we have heard, there have been seven previous attempts since 1993 to find a way forward. The work is being overseen by the independent cross-party Privy Council group, chaired by Sir John Chilcot, which was reappointed by the Government. As the review is still ongoing, I am not in a position to provide the House with an update on its likely findings, but we will consider issues raised in this debate carefully and return to the House on the matter in due course. We do not want some form of open-ended process, and we recognise the desire to find solutions and a way forward. This is a current review, and work is ongoing to consider whether there is a way to proceed in the face of the challenges we have heard about.

The current intercept as evidence review seeks to build on the findings of previous reviews and the potential impact of a need for terrorist prevention and investigation measures. One clear conclusion of that previous work is that intercept evidence is not a silver bullet that will negate the need for alternative ways to manage risk. We have heard some examples of that this afternoon, and I highlight recent evidence from David Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, who reiterated that intercept as evidence would not be

“a silver bullet that makes terrorism prevention and investigation measures unnecessary”.

A number of issues have been highlighted this afternoon, but I fear that time will not allow me to go through them all in the detail I would have wished. Many overseas countries, both EU and Commonwealth, operate effective intercept as evidence regimes within their legal context. Their experience indicates, however, that the burdens on the intercepting agencies are considerable. The issues of disclosure and how to secure a fair trial are obviously central, and that has been highlighted this afternoon in relation to article 6 provisions. Disclosure, and the practical impact of that on agencies and their overall capabilities, is relevant and something that is being examined closely in the cost-benefit, overarching analysis on capabilities.

I will conclude by reassuring you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Government are committed to finding ways for intercept evidence of sensitive material to be heard in legal proceedings. I am grateful to the House and all right hon. and hon. Members for helping to inform the debate this afternoon, and for assisting in this important work.

16:59

[Mr Lammy]

I am grateful for the support I have received from across the House. I do not think that an inquiry is the way forward in a case of this magnitude and given the nature of an inquest. However, I have heard the Minister’s remarks about the inquest powers of a judge alongside a coroner, and I will look into that.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House notes with concern that the inquest into the death of Mark Duggan may never commence under the current arrangements for the use of intercept evidence in courts and inquests; and calls on the Government to review its approach to open justice, in particular the use of intercept evidence in courts and inquests.

Pseudoxanthoma Elasticum

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.)

17:00

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

I am grateful for this opportunity to debate pseudoxanthoma elasticum, which is a hereditary disorder that can lead to the normal elastic fibres of the skin, eyes and cardiovascular system gradually becoming calcified, causing characteristic symptoms. I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box with his new responsibilities, and am grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who also has an interest in this matter, has joined me in this important debate.

It is estimated that about one in 25,000 people in the world have PXE. That could mean that up to 2,500 people in the UK have the condition. Clearly, it is a rare condition, but it is potentially devastating, because approximately 60% of PXE sufferers will develop eye problems, and many experience the loss of central vision. Therefore, 1,300 people may go blind—it generally happens from their 40s onwards, but we know that it can happen to people as young as 9 years old, because any injury to the head can lead to the onset of a bleed in the eye, resulting in the sudden loss of central vision.

I should take this opportunity to thank Elspeth Lax who runs the PXE support group which has championed many individual cases in the UK, where there is a frustrating lack of knowledge among the wider medical community, including among cardiologists, ophthalmologists and general practitioners. The level of knowledge is hit and miss.

Although there is a knowledge vacuum, it is far smaller than it was 30 years ago, when Mrs Lax was told, on diagnosis, that she would go blind, and that she should give up work and not have any children. To date, her support group has looked after 567 patients in the UK, the youngest of whom was born with skin markings in six places. That is rare, but, as I said, my concern is that PXE patients can go on to lose their central vision at any time.

I am also grateful to PXE International. Its Facebook page has allowed me to engage with UK citizens and others from around the world, and to contrast UK health care management with that of other countries. PXE sufferers affectionately call themselves “PiXiEs”—the community name is used among sufferers, indicating their good humour and stoicism as they explore and expand their knowledge. It might interest the House to know that, such is the following created since the announcement of the debate, we are being watched in America over the internet.

The debate was prompted by the case this summer of Dawn Thomas, the wife of Lance Corporal Thomas, a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Burton, who will speak later in the debate. She was initially denied funding for anti-vascular endothelial growth factor medications, which are otherwise and forthwith called anti-VEGFs, which slow sight loss by stopping blood vessels that inhibit sight forming or growing. The primary care trust eventually conceded on funding the treatment, but my hon. Friend will deal with that later.

My interest was spurred because, as the Minister well knows, I have a continuing and long-standing interest in matters health, as evidenced by my support for health reform, and I am currently co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on primary care and public health. I should also remind the House that my wife was diagnosed with the condition at age 7, although she is fortunately not seeking treatment for sight deterioration. I appreciate the opportunity to put that on the record.

I intend to focus entirely on the deteriorating loss of central vision, not the complications arising from calcification, which include loss of skin elasticity and gastro bleeds. To do that, I shall highlight to the Minister four key points. First, notwithstanding what I have said, all PXE patients lead a normal, active and long life, if their sight is not compromised. No shortening of lifespan is attributed to PXE. Secondly, the treatment for the sight deterioration, which is similar but not identical to wet macular degeneration, can be treated by Avastin and Lucentis, as the drugs are known in this country. This treatment significantly enhances patients’ quality of life by preserving their sight, but, as he knows, Avastin is sometimes used “off licence” by primary care trusts—though I do not wish to go into that matter now. Treatment involves periodic injections into the eye and requires regular check-ups to detect any deterioration. It is not possible to predict the number of treatments a patient will need, but, according to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, the recommended cost of Lucentis is just short of £800 per treatment.

Thirdly, I and PXE patients believe that there is both a humane and an economic case for ensuring that Avastin and Lucentis are available on the NHS for PXE patients and—crucially—on a timely and pre-authorised basis. That would avoid greater cost to the state, if a person loses their sight. Fourthly, time is critical in getting treatment to prevent sight deterioration. Overall, my point is that, unfortunately, both the NHS process and the lack of information and awareness within the medical community put sight-saving treatment at risk. The condition is not widely understood. As a result, urgent treatment is often not delivered in a timely manner.

The Government have a crucial role in overcoming that problem by ensuring that all PXE patients are looked after, and given tests and treatment promptly. The benefit would be not only sight-saving treatment for patients but a longer-term economic saving to the NHS and wider economic value, because patients could continue to work and enjoy a full life. Currently, the patient pathway works against this goal. It might take a week or longer to see a general practitioner, then a letter has to be sent to a consultant, after which it might take between four and eight weeks to get an appointment. That might mean the loss of critical time.

After that, more time might be lost, if the PCT does not agree to fund Lucentis. Why? Even though it is used for eye injections to treat WMD, NICE has not approved Lucentis for PXE—it was not even considered as part of the appraisal. We therefore have this bizarre situation: there could be two people at the same hospital and requiring the same treatment, one with WMD and the other with PXE. The first could get the drugs without any special application to the PCT, while the patient with PXE, which is one of the rarest diseases I have come across, could not, simply because it was not licensed at the time. Soon, following the changes to commissioning, clinical commissioning groups will be making these decisions locally—a dangerously slow process—which is absurd, given that the drug has been authorised for age-related WMD.

Although many of the victims of this condition are in danger of losing their sight, most likely over the age of 40, in reality a blow to the head can cause a bleed, leading to loss of vision, quite possibly within days. Fast treatment is essential, and, because a blow to the head is often not the result of an emergency incident, gaining treatment at an early stage is unlikely. Sometimes it is only with the help of active support groups that people avoid losing their sight.

There is an important distinction between age-related wet macular degeneration and PXE, because although PXE can also strike at a young age, it is a genetic condition, not a degenerative condition. That is why it has been identified as a rare condition that we can treat. Patients therefore can and should be able to continue to lead long and productive lives, because not only is it the duty of the publicly funded NHS to provide such treatment, but it makes economic sense. The Royal National Institute of Blind People, for example, estimates that the annual cost to the public purse of supporting a person with loss of vision is somewhere in the region of £14,500. According to a 2009 report commissioned by the RNIB via Access Economics, that excludes the cost of informal care, which is often provided by family members and friends, as one would anticipate.

My message and my request for the Minister in this debate is this. Support for the case for anti-VEGFs being additionally licensed for PXE is crucial, and I do not believe it will be expensive. That is something that, I hope with the support of the Government, we may be able to pursue, so that we can avoid any frankly critical time being lost should a PCT or future CCG not understand or wish to authorise that. It is equally crucial that there should be support for greater awareness of PXE in the NHS among clinicians, as well as CCGs and their support groups, so that they understand the need for urgent treatment. It is perfectly understandable why a disease that, at best, will affect 2,500 people is not widely understood or at the top of the agenda. However, given the narrative that the House has just heard, I hope that what are proven drugs—which can so easily mitigate the potentially life-changing outcomes of this rare disease—can be made available on an on-demand basis.

17:11

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

May I begin by thanking you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and Mr Speaker for allowing me to make a brief contribution to this Adjournment debate? I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on the work that he has done on this important issue. He talked about the support group, and I am delighted to say that he has been a great friend of the PiXiEs. His continued support in raising the issue has gone a long way to reassure sufferers that somebody is taking notice and that somebody cares about the terrible situation in which they find themselves.

As my hon. Friend said, I come to this debate because of a constituency case. Mrs Dawn Thomas came to my constituency surgery a few months ago. Hon. and right hon. Members will know that MPs’ surgeries are quite often the destination of last resort. People come to us in desperation when they have tried every other avenue and taken every other opportunity. They have asked everybody else they can think of for help; they then come to their MP and expect us to deliver what others have not been able to deliver. Often we are put in a difficult position, but I can honestly tell the House that when I was confronted by Mrs Thomas and her husband my heart went out to them. Theirs was a desperate situation, and one that in the 21st century we surely cannot allow to continue.

Let me put the matter in context. Mrs Thomas is a young woman—she is 44 years old—and she is a mother. She plays an active role in her community. She works as a secretary in a local haulage company. She enjoys playing darts. She has never claimed benefits; she pays her taxes. She has done everything right in playing her part in the big society, yet she was diagnosed with PXE at the age of 21—I congratulate my hon. Friend on his dexterity in using the technical terminology in his speech, but I will take the easy option and refer to it as PXE. In the meantime, Mrs Thomas lost the sight of her left eye as a result of another illness. She had no real symptoms of PXE until about two months ago, when her sight began to deteriorate rapidly. In desperation, she went to her GP, who referred her to a consultant. The consultant gave her the devastating news that she had PXE and that she would go blind.

There was hope, however, in that there was a treatment out there that could save Mrs Thomas’s sight and allow her to lead her life as she knew it. She applied for the treatment but was refused by the primary care trust. She appealed, and received a devastating, formal, bureaucratic letter that told her in no uncertain terms that she would go blind. To receive such a letter must be a dreadful experience for a wife and mum. That is why she came to see me.

The story was taken up by my local newspaper, the Burton Mail, which campaigned on Mrs Thomas’s behalf, and by the national press. I am grateful to South Staffordshire PCT for looking again at her case. At the first appeal, however, it said that her case was not exceptional enough. I would say that anyone’s sight was exceptional, and that we should do all that we can to save it. I am delighted to say that the PCT reviewed her case, and that she is now receiving the treatment that she deserves.

The PCT has confirmed to me that the cost of treating Mrs Thomas with Lucentis is £18,000, while the cost of Avastin is just £8,000. Let us compare either of those sums to the cost to the taxpayer if she were to go blind. She would be unable to work, and she would be forced to claim benefits. Surely it makes economic sense for the Government to give her the treatment that she needs at an early stage, so that she can keep her sight and continue to lead the life that she loves. I am sure that the House will understand that no MP wants to be in the situation that I found myself in when I had to tell Mrs Thomas that the NHS could not help her, and that she was facing blindness.

17:17

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on securing the debate. He told the House that his wife had been diagnosed with PXE, and I am sure that this is a matter of great personal concern to him. I am grateful to him for engaging with me and the Department before the debate. I am keen to ensure that we maintain a continuing discussion on this matter. We cannot answer all the questions in the debate today, and we cannot change the whole system or the way in which the NHS operates, but let us discuss the genuine problem that has been highlighted today.

I should also like to acknowledge the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who spoke movingly about his constituent’s situation. He drew our attention to the fact that, while losing one’s sight is a critical matter for an individual, the cost to society and to the Government demonstrates powerfully the case for treatment in those circumstances. I also want to pay tribute to Elspeth Lax for her tireless work. We owe people like her, and the support groups that offer support to hundreds of patients with many different conditions, an enormous debt of gratitude.

I completely take on board the importance of fast access to treatment. It is critical. Indeed, the NHS constitution makes the point that citizens have a right to a speedy decision, without delay. People need to exercise their rights under the constitution in cases such as these.

[Nick de Bois]

It is worth highlighting that, because of the shortcomings, many people suffering from this condition have resorted to paying for their drugs themselves privately, such is the urgency of their situation.

[Norman Lamb]

I completely understand that. The debate has focused on the effects of the condition on the eye, and these matters are of considerable concern to people with PXE.

There are no licensed eye treatments for PXE. People with PXE should be advised on healthy lifestyle measures, such as stopping smoking, adopting a healthy diet and taking physical exercise, to reduce the risk of complications. They should also be monitored regularly by a health care professional. As it is a genetic condition, patients who are considering having children should receive genetic counselling, and first-degree relatives should be screened. Because of the similarities between age-related macular degeneration and PXE in the eye, some clinicians may consider using treatments that are effective in AMD, including laser treatment and the drugs Avastin and Lucentis, which have already been mentioned. My understanding, however, is that PXE has a different cause and a different process, and patients with PXE might not respond to those treatments in exactly the same way.

Lucentis is considered by some clinicians to be effective in treating people whose eyes have been affected by PXE. I have also mentioned Avastin, but neither Lucentis nor Avastin are licensed by their manufacturer for use in the treatment of patients with PXE. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has appraised or is currently appraising the use of Lucentis in the treatment of other eye conditions such as wet age-related macular degeneration and other conditions—diabetic macular oedema and retinal vein occlusion, for example—but Lucentis is currently recommended in NICE technology appraisal guidance only as a treatment for wet AMD, subject to certain criteria.

Clinicians may prescribe any treatment, including an unlicensed treatment or a product not licensed for a particular condition, where they consider it to be the best available medicine to meet the clinical needs of their patients—it is for the judgment of the clinician—subject to their primary care organisation agreeing to fund the treatment. Primary care organisations, too, are legally obliged to provide funding so that treatments that have been positively appraised by NICE are available on the NHS. In the absence of relevant NICE guidance, these primary care organisations are responsible for making funding decisions based on an assessment of available evidence and on the basis of an individual patient’s circumstances.

Where a decision is taken not to fund a treatment, primary care organisations must have a process to allow for the possibility that an individual may have exceptional circumstances—I absolutely take the point that loss of sight needs to be taken very seriously into consideration—which justify access to treatment that is not available to the rest of the population. If doctors feel that there are exceptional clinical circumstances, they can request treatments that are not usually funded on behalf of their patients through an individual funding request. I recognise, as I have said, that time can be of the essence in these cases. In this situation, a special panel that includes clinicians would carefully consider individual cases against the latest medical evidence and decide whether the treatment could be approved.

Under the NHS constitution, patients have the right to expect local decisions about the funding of medicines and treatments to be made rationally and without delay following a proper consideration of the evidence. If new evidence arises to support the use of a treatment or if an individual’s clinical circumstances change, a new individual funding request can be made. To help organisations make these difficult decisions, the Department has issued a set of core principles, and primary care organisations are required to have in place clear and transparent arrangements for local decision making on funding of drugs and for considering exceptional funding requests.

I shall deal now with the general issue of the commissioning of services for people with rare conditions. This Government are committed to providing the best quality of care for people with rare conditions. When we took office in 2010, we endorsed the right in the NHS constitution that says no one should be left behind just because of the rarity of their condition. Lack of awareness is, of course, often a real problem. The importance we attach to services for people with rare conditions has been clearly demonstrated in the reforms set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North was active in supporting during its passage through Parliament. As a result, specialised and highly specialised services, which are currently commissioned at both a national and regional level through a range of NHS organisations, will be brought together under one roof. From April 2013, the new NHS Commissioning Board will directly commission services for people with rare diseases on a national basis. The board will have a clear focus on specialised services organised around programmes of care. These new arrangements for the commissioning of specialised services provide a unique opportunity to do things more effectively and smarter than in the past, and will bring real benefits to patients with rare conditions, including to patients with PXE.

Moving to a national standard system of commissioning while maintaining a local focus managed through the board’s four regions and the local area teams will provide the geographic and speciality oversight that is needed for these services. The commissioning board will set out a detailed service specification for each of the services that it will commission directly. That will link national service knowledge and expertise with local contract knowledge of providers and pathways of care, cementing the new system together in the interests of patients. The benefits to patients with rare conditions are clear: a single national commissioning policy and better planning and co-ordination will result in improved consistency around the country.

The Government are also committed to increasing awareness—which I mentioned earlier—of very rare conditions such as PXE. That commitment has been demonstrated through the UK’s involvement in the development of the UK plan for rare diseases. We shared our views on the proposed plan earlier this year, launching our consultation on 29 February, rare disease day. The consultation document was produced jointly by the four nations of the United Kingdom, and the consultation closed on 25 May.

The consultation responses will inform the UK plan, which is being developed in response to the 2009 European Council recommendation on rare diseases. That recommendation, which was supported by the UK, asked every member state to develop a national plan or strategy for rare diseases by the end of 2013. My officials are currently working through all the consultation responses—there were more than 350, which demonstrates the level of interest—and are writing a summary of the responses. They expect to publish it later in the autumn, with the final plan being published next year.

This is the first time that the UK has developed a plan to tackle rare diseases. The plan will bring together a number of recommendations designed to improve the co-ordination of care and to lead to better outcomes for everyone with a rare disease, including people with PXE. However, a plan in isolation is clearly not enough. This plan will need buy-in from everyone in the system. With that in mind, my officials have been working closely with the newly formed NHS Commissioning Board to ensure that the plan has traction within the system, so that people know about it and understand its power.

In comparison with some other member states, the UK already has good systems for supporting and treating people with rare diseases through the provision of specialised services, but that does not mean that we cannot do better. For example, more co-ordinated care saves patients time, money and stress by avoiding the need for multiple visits to various clinics and hospitals, which has too often been people’s experience in the past. We are also considering how rare diseases can be better represented in training curricula. That is critical to raising the level of knowledge and capacity in the system.

People with rare diseases are likely to come into contact with professionals from a range of disciplines: from GPs through geneticists and researchers to nurses, surgeons, mental health teams and social care workers. It is for that reason that the UK plan for rare diseases will be targeted at the whole of the health and social care sectors. The final plan will set out a coherent and joined-up approach to tackling rare diseases. It will acknowledge existing developments, such as the contribution that expert centres can make to better diagnosis and treatment of rare diseases, while proposing a number of further developments, such as better information for patients so that they can be fully engaged and helped to understand and manage their conditions.

The plan will include recommendations, actions and examples of best practice for commissioners of specialised services, royal colleges, providers of information, and staff on the ground who deliver care to people with rare diseases. It will recognise that each nation of the UK has different health care systems, and it will be for each nation to implement it in accordance with its own priorities and patterns of service. In England, much of the implementation of the final plan will be for the new commissioning board in its role as a single national commissioner of specialised and highly specialised services.

I am grateful to my hon. Friends for raising this important issue. The value of a debate such as this is that it forces Ministers to focus on rare diseases to which we might not have devoted time otherwise. I shall be happy to continue to engage with the issue to ensure that patients with PXE are given the treatment and care that they deserve.

Question put and agreed to.

17:30

House adjourned.

Ministerial Correction

Thursday 18th October 2012 Ministerial Corrections

Thursday 18 October 2012

Energy and Climate Change

Thursday 18th October 2012 Ministerial Corrections

Electricity: Merseyside

[Steve Rotheram]

To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has had with Ofgem on the level of electricity prices in Merseyside; and if he will make a statement.

[Official Report, 10 September 2012, Vol. 550, c. 60W.]

Letter of correction from John Hayes:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) on 10 September 2012.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Hayes]

[holding answer 7 September 2012]: DECC Ministers and officials meet with Ofgem on a regular basis to discuss a range of issues. Electricity and gas pricing for household consumers is a commercial matter for the companies concerned and is regulated by Ofgem.

In 2011, the average bills for domestic electricity customers living in Merseyside who consumed the standard consumption of 3,300 kWh per annum were:

£493 for pre-payment, £502 for standard credit and £452 direct debit (DECC Quarterly Energy Prices Publication June 2012, table 2.2.3).

The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Hayes]

[holding answer 7 September 2012]: DECC Ministers and officials meet with Ofgem on a regular basis to discuss a range of issues. Electricity and gas pricing for household consumers is a commercial matter for the companies concerned who are regulated by Ofgem.

In 2011, the average bills for domestic electricity customers living in Merseyside who consumed the standard consumption of 3,300 kWh per annum were:

£493 for pre-payment, £502 for standard credit and £452 direct debit (DECC Quarterly Energy Prices Publication June 2012, table 2.2.3).

Westminster Hall

Thursday 18th October 2012 Westminster Hall

Thursday 18 October 2012

[Mr Charles Walker in the Chair]

Backbench Business

Thursday 18th October 2012 Westminster Hall

Infrastructure Projects (Community Benefit)

Thursday 18th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Relevant documents: Uncorrected evidence taken by the Energy and Climate Change Committee on building new nuclear: the challenge ahead, HC 117-ii.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Hayes.)

13:30

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

I am absolutely delighted to serve under your chairmanship once again, Mr Walker. I congratulate you on your recent elevation to the chairmanship of the Procedure Committee; it is marvellous.

I am also delighted to introduce this debate. I had a debate recently on this issue with my hon. Friend the Minister before the House rose for the last recess. We have moved on, but given the enormous turnout—more chairs will have to be brought in to cope—I will give a bit of the history. Both Front-Bench spokesmen are fairly new in their job—the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) is now shadow Minister for Energy and Climate Change—so a bit of history on the Hinkley Point situation might be in order. This is not just about Hinkley Point, but it is the first project under national infrastructure planning for which infrastructure money from business rates might have to be considered, so I will give a little background.

The nuclear debate came to the fore under Prime Minister Tony Blair, when he made a courageous decision to restart the civil nuclear programme. That was absolutely right. Our dearly departed colleague, Malcolm Wicks, wrote the definitive works on the programme. A great deal of credit must be given to his memory. His way of dealing with the issue as Energy Minister was superb. There was then a long debate about which nuclear power station would be first. Hinkley Point was picked by EDF for various historical reasons to become the first station. In the meantime, EDF took over the fleet, including Hinkley B.

The importance of that was that local people always expected that there would be a Hinkley C at some time in the future. That was understood. There has been nuclear power in my constituency since 1957, long before even my predecessor, Lord King of Bridgwater. The beauty was that it was possible to talk to local people about their aspirations and hopes. The people in my area have always embraced nuclear energy. It has been there for so long and has a massive history. There is an enormous understanding of nuclear energy.

That is important, as the reason for this debate is to consider the issue in a wider context as well. Very large infrastructure projects, such as nuclear power stations, tend to be in areas that already have nuclear energy. The problems that we will face with infrastructure benefit will plague things such as High Speed 2, new runways, very large solar arrays and the Bristol barrage, just outside my constituency in that of my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose). A lot of this debate centres on what we do now. The decision will rest with the Government, and we need to make it sooner rather than later.

The scheme was signed off by the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), when he was Minister of State. He said openly that we needed to be able to prove that, if an area took on a large infrastructure project, the people there would be given the benefit of the project. There are three ways to do so. First, it can be done through section 106 money; that has been negotiated by EDF with the local councils, signed off and dealt with. Secondly, it can be done straightforwardly with money from the Government, which I suggest is difficult in any political cycle but would be quite impossible this time. Thirdly, a percentage of the business rates can be returned to the local community.

The debate that we need to have on any infrastructure project concerns the length. A nuclear power station’s operational life is roughly 60 years. I cannot say what the technology will be in 60 years’ time. We may get a life extension of five or 20 years. The same goes for railways and barrages. Everything has a finite time span. Do we have precedents in the United Kingdom? Yes, we do. We have Sullom Voe in the Shetland Isles and the nuclear storage area at Drigg in Scotland, both of which get community benefit, and rightly so. Local communities took those facilities and were given the benefit. We are not reinventing the wheel. We are doing this with my hon. Friend the Minister, and the Opposition; I include them because I believe strongly that it is a national decision affecting MPs across all our countries, especially as Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom—it affects Scotland as well—and it will get more pronounced. The great thing about Hinkley is that, because it was expected, we are pushing against an open door. We know perfectly well that we must build it, partly for security purposes and partly because it is the right way to go, and we can discuss it extremely openly. That is where I am starting from.

Community benefit is a term that we are starting to get used to. The Prime Minister said—in a speech about housing, I accept—that we must get on with large projects. He is absolutely right. We cannot break or bend the planning process, but large infrastructure projects will not be dealt with by local planning authorities; they will be dealt with nationally, courtesy of the last Government’s Planning Act 2008—a good law that works well. However, once the planning decision has been made, the Government must decide exactly which way the project will go.

My hon. Friend the Minister has been extremely kind on all levels, and I thank him for his courtesy in dealing with me and communities in my constituency. I pay great tribute to him, because I know that it is difficult to be a new Minister. I am grateful to him for the time that he has spent trying to grasp what is going on in a huge infrastructure project. It is a 450-acre, £9.3 billion project. It is the same size as the Olympics; it will last for 60 years; and it will employ 7,000 people to build it and between 1,000 and 2,000 to operate it over its 60 years of operation—never mind building it and putting the site back to greenfield, mothballing it or whatever happens in future. Luckily, that will not happen on any of our watches—not even that of a young man like you, Mr Walker.

We parliamentarians spend a lot of time discussing different ways to channel money to enable big projects to proceed. We might not have made the national headlines, but only this week the House has dealt with the remaining stages of the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill—a measure that aims to pump-prime big projects, especially now that public-private finance is in such short supply. Hon. Members might think that that has nothing to do directly with community benefit, but it is closely linked, because new infrastructure happens only if somebody pays for it, and communities only accept infrastructure projects, no matter what the projects are, if they can see the benefit. HS2 is an obvious example that we all face at the moment.

For my sins, I am also a Member of the Council of Europe—a fact that normally I quietly hide. Therefore, I take the Eurostar to Council sessions in Strasbourg. Every time the train emerges on the French side of the channel tunnel, we start to pick up speed and motor, and I am reminded of how long it took for Britain to wake up to high-speed rail. One reason is our dreadfully slow planning system. Endless inquiries brought nothing but delay, while in France the farmers queued up to sell their land because French compensation was set high to encourage quick decisions. Obviously, this could be called bribery, but the French had high-speed trains almost 20 years before we did. We have now, cross-party, marvellously embraced the idea, made respectable by spending money on local facilities. Instead of letting farmers buy flashy new Citroëns, we have put the money into community funding.

Ultimately, however, community benefit still means money—money for things that the community needs to build facilities that will last. It is now the only decent formula by which major projects, especially contentious ones, can ever obtain public acceptance. Landfill tax, for example, is levied on companies that dispose of rubbish in holes in the ground. We all know it, because it applies in all our constituencies. The money is spent on projects that benefit the areas in which those holes are being filled in. That usually, although not in every case, involves setting up a charitable trust. That is a fair way to pay for the inconvenience of having garbage dumped on one’s doorstep. However, the construction of Hinkley C in my constituency is on a much larger scale than that. It is difficult to compare the inconvenience involved—in fact, we cannot compare it, so we must not—but there is still no formula set in stone to guarantee the lasting package of community benefit.

As I have already said, my hon. Friend the Minister and I faced each other in an Adjournment debate in the House just before it rose for the last recess. As I have also said before, I genuinely appreciate the positive approach of both the Government and the Opposition. I note with interest that the shadow Secretary of State has been asking questions about community benefit. I am absolutely delighted about that; they were very good and sensible questions.

I do not think that anyone disagrees with the idea that new nuclear power stations should qualify for community benefit, and I think that my hon. Friend the Minister agrees with me that there are severe limitations to section 106 agreements. I know that he will have talks with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and I am delighted that he has accepted my invitation to come down to Bridgwater to see for himself the challenges that we face and some of the solutions that we are trying to find to make things easier for the communities that are affected by the nuclear plant. I have known him long enough to know that he will arrive with an open mind and, as always, a willingness to listen.

All of us, not just my hon. Friend the Minister, have to face the fact that there is a degree of confusion among some of those responsible for local government in the area. I hasten to add that I do not think that anyone is confused about the project itself; we all understand it extremely well. There is a straightforward plan to rebuild the power station at Hinkley Point, which is just a few miles outside Bridgwater in my constituency. It has been talked about for years and is now in the final stages of planning.

Hinkley is absolutely vital to Britain’s energy needs; we could say that the Atlantic array in the Bristol channel and many other projects will be equally vital. Without the new capacity that the Hinkley plant will generate, the lights probably will go out; they will not go out straight away, but we are losing capacity.

The task of putting up a power station is a great deal harder than flicking any switch. As we all know, this project at Hinkley is a very complex and costly one. The construction work will involve huge teams of people and local disruption for a decade at least. Those enjoying the peace and quiet of Bridgwater and West Somerset are, to put it crudely, in for a severe shock. Everyone involved is trying hard to minimise the effects, and I pay tribute to everyone involved for doing so. However, there is no getting away from the fact that the long road to Hinkley C is not going to be easy.

I know, and my hon. Friend the Minister is also aware, that last weekend the Hinkley site was a honey-pot for the nation’s anti-nuclear lobby. It attracts many people, including the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who is my neighbouring MP; apparently she sent a message by videolink last weekend. We are broad-minded in Somerset, as my hon. Friend the Minister knows. We are used to invasions by long-haired people with strange ideas. Glastonbury is just down the road. I go occasionally; I have to put a wig on. So we do not begrudge any protesters—anti-nuclear protesters or otherwise—marching and singing.

However, I have a slightly dim view of trespassers, especially those elected to Parliament, because all of us in the area live near Hinkley; I myself live very close to the plant. We understand the importance of nuclear energy; we are not scared by nuclear energy. As I have said, it has been part of our lives since 1957. We appreciate that there are risks involved—of course there are. We know that it is not just our problem, but our grandchildren’s problem and probably our great-grandchildren’s problem, too. In other words, my constituents have come to terms with nuclear power by genuine experience of it. People should take that on board when we talk about other infrastructure projects.

The first reactor was installed at Hinkley in the 1950s, and it was a pioneering operation both for Hinkley and Britain; it was a remarkable achievement. There are still people living who were involved in that project—designers and engineers who have watched Hinkley grow and who, I hope, will still be around to see the latest successor to the original plant go on-line.

As a result of our experience, we also understand that nuclear power is not to be treated lightly; once nuclear power arrives, it is there for life. The original Hinkley A station shut down some years ago, but we cannot just dismantle a reactor easily; dismantling one takes a lot of work. A reactor is visible and needs looking after. My hon. Friend the Minister is fully aware of the life-span of redundant nuclear power stations. Indeed, the very long life-span of nuclear energy provides the most compelling argument for a generous settlement of community benefit for the local people. I believe that a great deal of good can come our way because of Hinkley, and I also believe that nuclear power, in conjunction with other schemes, is the only viable option to bridge our energy gap. I will add that the Bristol barrage is a future option. We should be looking at it, and the Prime Minister is taking a keen interest in it, as the last Government did, which was marvellous.

However, local people need to feel that they have not been forgotten in all this process. Hinkley is probably a precedent; I hope that we are setting a good trend. The remarks of my hon. Friend the Minister during my recent Adjournment debate signalled a real commitment from the Government that community benefit will not be an afterthought; to be fair, it has not been an afterthought under the last Government or this one.

I do not wish to press my hon. Friend the Minister—I would not do that—but it would be extremely helpful today if he bestowed a few wise words for the benefit of the local people, who are slightly anxious about what will happen in the near and medium future. There has been an enormous amount of discussion in the local area about the proportion of business rates that will be used to provide a fund for the whole community. My hon. Friend referred to business rates specifically when he replied to my Adjournment debate before the recess—for that I am thankful—but I am still witnessing confusion among some local representatives about how such a fund might work.

In my area, a few elected councillors in quite senior positions have got it into their heads that the Government intend to create a special new fund. There is a danger of information vacuums. I dare say that we have all faced that danger and know of it from our own constituencies; it is not unique to my constituency or anyone else’s. Idle rumours tend to seep in and fill the gap. I do not mean to be rude to my hon. Friend, but let me describe my own understanding of the Government’s position, so that I have got it right in my own mind.

The Department for Communities and Local Government wants to let local authorities hang on to some of the business rates that they levy because that would demonstrate—quite rightly—localism, which is something that we have championed. Theoretically, councils will get the chance to use business rates to attract new enterprise, and if a proportion of those rates goes straight to councils rather than the Treasury that is also seen as a device to let local government stand firmly on its own financial feet, which I would like to think will save the Treasury and the nation an enormous amount of money.

Some of these ideas are in the Local Government Finance Bill, but there are limitations, probably the most frustrating of which relates to wind farms. If a wind farm—we have wind farms in my area, Mr Walker, as you are well aware—gets clearance to put up a turbine, the local council can retain a chunk of the business rates, because wind is supposed to be renewable, when it is blowing. I accept that nuclear power is not, strictly speaking, renewable, but it is carbon-neutral and has enormous benefits on the renewables side. It is essential that nuclear power is there when the wind does not blow and the wind turbines do not generate power. When that happens, nuclear is still there.

Can we get a brass farthing of those business rates for nuclear? In his response to me a few weeks ago, just before the House rose the last time, my hon. Friend the Minister helpfully pointed out that nuclear is defined as a low-carbon technology with an enormous contribution to make to this country. I completely agree. However, the rules therefore need to be tweaked; indeed, I suspect that they are about to be tweaked. If so, how will they be tweaked?

When Hinkley is ready for operations, its rateable value will possibly be of the order of £10 million a year; we do not quite know. As it stands, that money will go straight to the Treasury. That is unfair on Bridgwater and West Somerset, its councils and its residents. Let me just say that the Hinkley plant is right in the middle of my constituency. The rules say that we do not qualify because nuclear is not renewable. Nuclear is carbon-neutral, but not renewable.

The Department for Communities and Local Government conducted a consultation exercise before the rules were set and spelled out the terms of reference for any energy project. That exercise was meant to prove that wind power schemes were the only ones that would qualify councils to retain any form of business rates. However, the truth is exactly the opposite.

Let me demonstrate that by going through DECC’s checklist; I did it before the recess with my hon. Friend the Minister, but I do it again now for the benefit of the House now. The first point on the checklist was, “Creating a diverse energy mix”. Yes, Hinkley does that. “Decarbonising our economy.” Yes, we can do that. “Creating energy security.” Yes, absolutely. “Protecting consumers from fossil fuel price fluctuations.” Yes. “Driving investment and jobs.” Absolutely, as Hinkley C will need 7,000 people to build it and about 1,000 people to operate it. “Meeting carbon emissions reductions.” We can certainly do that. “Incentivising development for growth.” If hon. Members could see what is being built in my area, they would be most impressed and the unemployment rate in my area now is only 3.6%, thanks in large part to Hinkley and the work that is being done there.

In July, Sedgemoor council received a very encouraging letter about business rates from a senior Minister in the Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend for Dorset, West—

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

West Dorset.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

My hon. Friend the Minister corrects me from a sedentary position, and I am very grateful to him for doing so. Yes, the letter was from the Minister for Government Policy, my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin). I will just quote a little bit of that letter:

“The design of the business rates retention scheme will ensure that there will be significant ongoing benefits to those authorities hosting low-carbon energy infrastructure, not just renewable energy projects.”

I wonder whether my hon. Friend the Minister can add anything to that today.

The formula for allocating business rates is based on where a project is. With HS2, it is much more complicated because of the lengths, but Hinkley is a good example, because of where it is. Hinkley Point is on the coast, just outside the boundary—by about 300 yards, for geographical reasons—of West Somerset district council. The area is incredibly rural, and pretty much in the middle of nowhere—that is why such projects are built in such places. The roads are narrow, the population is widely spread and the council has found it difficult to make ends meet financially.

Everyone knows that the only way to get heavy traffic to Hinkley Point is through my town of Bridgwater, off the M5, so the majority of the disruption will be not in West Somerset district council but in Sedgemoor. There are two slightly different things here, but a strict interpretation of the rules would provide West Somerset council with all the money. Regarding taking that on to other much bigger and longer projects, Crossrail, for example, does not come under that and has no intention of being included. We can imagine how complicated that would be.

Hinkley C will generate huge amounts not only of electricity but of business rates. I have taken a figure of £10 million a year—we do not know the actual figure. Therefore, for a local authority with limited resources, the arrival of a power station is like finding gold at the bottom of the garden, albeit in 10 to 12 years’ time. I do not think, however, and this is not what was suggested by our colleague Malcolm Wicks before he left, or by any other Minister or Government, that that is how business rates should be allocated. I hope that in the near future—perhaps even today—we can get a little clarification about what the thinking is.

My hon. Friend the Minister’s Department has created a Hinkley strategic development partnership, which includes all the councils involved, the chambers of commerce, and EDF Energy, which is leading on the development. I am absolutely delighted about that. In this modern day, we grandly call them stakeholders; actually, they are local people doing a good job of trying to carry forward what we all see as the future.

I hope that my hon. Friend will today confirm my interpretation of what we are discussing, because the matter is important for a lot of local people. I believe that he wants to bring everyone together in partnership, irrespective of district council borders, to find ways of spending a proportion of the business rates. It would be helpful if he could make that crystal clear, so that no district or county councillor—I do not have a unitary council—was left in any doubt that a future community benefits package had to rely on complete and active co-operation between the different local authorities. We must not have any rivalry. Hatchets need to be buried. We must do this as a partnership. That goes for any infrastructure project that we might face, as there are few that do not cross boundaries.

In any case, we are not talking about an immediate cash flow. Hinkley will be unable to produce any business rates until it becomes viable and is switched on, 10 to 12 years in the future, by which time local government may have completely altered. We do not even know who will be in government nationally—it is as least two Parliaments away—so now it is time to work together, and we have proof that the main authorities are capable of doing just that. The recent announcement of the final section 106 settlement, involving the county council and the two district councils, alongside EDF Energy, is a tremendous step forward. It is a multi-million pound settlement—huge amounts of money. That is welcome. People understand it. It took a long time to achieve and, as with all deals, some parties might be happier than others, but the essential is in the wording. It is an agreement that stands. It will involve EDF spending in the region of £94 million, to help to pay for many road improvements, and for work force training, facilities and all sorts of other things that the community feel they need.

The Minister and the Opposition are aware, however, that section 106 was never designed to deal with long-term legacy questions. Section 106 agreements must be “directly related” to the development, and they are limited and—dare I say it?—inflexible, capable of addressing only a narrow range of projects. That is where we have the problem. My hon. Friend and I have talked about that, and he has a full understanding of the issue, for which I am grateful.

The price for building Hinkley is roughly £9.5 billion to £10 billion. I am only concerned with a small fraction of that sum, a few million pounds a year to help local communities, and to prove that this Government—any Government—are concerned about the legacy of large infrastructure projects, to the benefit of local people. I know that the Minister is new to his task, but I have known him for a long time, and I know that he understands the issue—we have discussed it. I know that he has hit the ground running, and I know that any additional clues that he can provide today in resolving this problem will be gratefully received by my local communities and councillors, and the people within the Bridgwater and West Somerset constituency.

13:50

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger), who has spoken eloquently about power generation and about how we need to catch up on the infrastructure deficit in this country. I have come here to support that argument, because I believe that we do have such a deficit, which has built up over many years, not only in power generation but in other infrastructure. I will highlight transport and broadband, because connectivity now includes digital as well as physical connectivity.

I think that the public appetite for infrastructure investment is changing. People know that we have a huge problem with it. If we take our rail network, we have as many people travelling on it now as in the late 1920s, but it is a fraction of the size. That is a key cause of capacity problems and overcrowding. We must recognise that we will need to build more. The Government are, of course, responding, and extremely positively. We are seeing the electrification of more and more of our rail network. So far, this Government have announced the electrification of 850 miles, compared to the mere 9 miles achieved in the 13 years of the previous Government. That is a step change in our approach. Rail electrification makes a huge difference. Nearly all new rolling stock will be electrically powered. It is cheaper to run and cheaper to buy. The electric trains accelerate and decelerate more quickly, so we can have either more stops or shorter journey times. The trains require less weight, so there is less wear and tear on the tracks, and that is part of taking cost out of running our railways—we all want to see cheaper fares.

My point is that we have a backlog of infrastructure investment, yet at the same time we see huge numbers of local campaigns against investment. That is a difficult issue to resolve because we, as Conservatives, respect local communities and want more of them to participate in decision making. Nevertheless, we need to address the backlog of infrastructure, which is one of the biggest issues that crops up in my casework and surgeries. People talk to me regularly about the poor quality broadband in north Yorkshire. In fact, just outside Harrogate broadband falls off a cliff, and in parts of north Yorkshire superfast is just a dream. However, we have also managed to make some significant progress, and I have praise for the Government’s response in getting broadband trials going across the country, and for North Yorkshire county council, which has done excellent work locally.

North Yorkshire will be the first county to expand its broadband network as part of the Government trial. We have awarded our contract, the diggers will start rolling shortly, and by 2014 North Yorkshire should be one of the best connected counties in the country. North Yorkshire county council has been driving implementation through its company NYnet, and parliamentarians from across the county have come together to support the initiative. We had a successful conference only a few weeks ago, in which we moved from the planning of the process and the awarding of the contract, to saying, “Right. Now it’s about delivery. Over to you British Telecom—the successful bidder—get this contract in place.” My point is that there is public appetite, because people know we need broadband. But knowing that we need it, as we did with roads, rail, power generation and broadband, is not the same as having universal support. The Government’s approach to ensuring more community benefit will go a long way towards tackling that issue.

Drawing on one further example from my experience of eight years as a Harrogate borough councillor, I note that councils have not historically seen the benefits of economic development in their area. Councils incur costs for running economic development units, but they do not benefit from increased business rates. There is a misalignment between the effort and disruption and the reward. If we can increase that alignment, and the Government’s plan to localise business rates will go a long way towards that because it is a fantastic idea, we will start to see accountability, responsibility and reward aligned with economic growth.

I have made my point. The infrastructure deficit is a huge issue for our country. My hon. Friend has spoken powerfully about power generation, which is not straightforward, because almost all power-generation planning applications are extremely challenging. From wind turbines right up to nuclear power stations, they are all difficult. Transport and broadband are the same, but we have to get on with this. I very much support the idea of community benefit so that people see returns for their area.

14:01

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

This is the first time I have had the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Opposition under your chairmanship, Mr Walker, and I look forward to it.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) on securing this debate. He spoke eloquently in support of his constituency and constituents. I echo his tribute to my late hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North, Malcolm Wicks, who, excuse the pun, was a leading light in energy policy and did some great things for this country. We all miss him.

This is also the first time I have had the opportunity to debate with the Minister, whom I welcome to his new position. He is being kept very busy today.

This is an important debate. With our economy in the longest double-dip recession since the second world war, investment in infrastructure projects such as new nuclear is urgently needed to create jobs and boost confidence now and strengthen our economy for the future. We support new nuclear as part of a balanced energy mix that must also include renewables and carbon capture and storage. If we are to meet our climate change targets and secure our energy future, we cannot put all our eggs in one basket. A recent Institute for Public Policy Research report highlights the potential advantages of new nuclear. Nuclear is a tried and tested means of generating electricity; Last year, Dr Mike Weightman, the UK’s chief nuclear inspector, reported that there was nothing to call into question the viability of safe and reliable nuclear power in the UK.

Although important questions about decommissioning costs and capital overruns must be addressed, the chance to create thousands of jobs is too important to dismiss. The potential for economic growth must not be passed over and the necessity of securing our future energy supply cannot be ignored. With predictions of up to 32,000 additional jobs accruing from new nuclear, and an annual boost to our economy of more than £5 billion, the consideration of new nuclear generation is in the UK’s economic and energy interests. Many of those jobs will be highly skilled and well paid, and they will necessarily be in parts of the country that are crying out for additional employment. So developing new nuclear, and major infrastructure projects more generally, is important for our economy and security of supply.

There is recognition on both sides of the House that, although large-scale infrastructure projects are vital to our national interest, we need to ensure that the local communities in which they are situated also benefit directly. Page 62 of the Government’s “National Infrastructure Plan 2011” recognises that and commits to introducing community benefits for new nuclear, pledging to

“engage with developers and local authorities on community benefit and bring forward proposals by 2012 for reform of the community benefit regime to provide”—

this is the important point—

“greater certainty for all parties.”

Yet, almost 12 months later, we are still waiting for the Government to announce new proposals and to give that certainty.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I am not defending the Minister in any way, but, as the hon. Lady knows, there has been a slight delay as EDF has had to put things back to buy a little more time because of the incredible complication. She has touched on that eloquently, for which I thank her. I, along with the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), have been working hard to ensure that a decision is made in the right time, rather than in a rush. As a local Member, I can safely tell the hon. Lady that I am happy that we are getting there in the right time.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, although my point is wider than that. He referred to his particular project, but there is a wider commitment in the “National Infrastructure Plan 2011” to consider community benefit as a whole for all projects across the country.

In answer to a parliamentary question from the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint)—I thank the hon. Gentleman for referencing those questions—the Minister said:

“The Department is currently considering proposals for a community benefit package for communities hosting new nuclear. Details of any decisions will be made available by the end of 2012.”—[Official Report, 15 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 134W.]

I am hopeful that the Minister will be able to give us more detail today, as 2012 is nearly at an end.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the specific instance of Hinkley Point C a great deal. He made a forceful case for the Government to consider community benefit. He made a number of points and referred to facilities that would last: he talked about the long-term legacy impacts of any community benefit.

Hinkley Point C is a substantial development and is much larger than the stations that are already there. It has the potential to provide about 6% of the UK’s electricity and power, approximately 5 million homes. Hinkley Point C’s potential contribution is not to be understated. There will clearly be a short-term impact on the local area during the eight-year construction phase, with some 5,600 workers employed at the peak of construction—I acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman used the figure of 7,000.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

The hon. Lady is right about the site. Both the Minister and the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who is now Leader of the Opposition, acknowledge that the whole package for the area will be some 7,500 at its peak. I correct the hon. Lady, but she is right about the site itself.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification.

There will obviously be a knock-on effect, with increased traffic and noise disruption. There will also be a much longer-term effect as the station is likely to be operational for 60 years, and the waste generated at the site is likely to be stored locally for up to 100 years.

On the precedent for energy infrastructure, the Government have previously supported community benefits for areas housing onshore wind energy generation. I believe I am right to say that they are moving towards a similar principle for waste energy. So there is a case for some community benefits beyond those afforded under section 106, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, and beyond the direct benefits that will come from more long-term employment and greater spending in the local economy.

As I said earlier, it is up to the Government to come forward with a suitable package and an announcement on a new regime to give more certainty to the communities that will be home to those new developments. In fact, the Minister committed to delivering local community benefits as part of the Hinkley Point C project during the 18 September Adjournment debate on this subject secured by the hon. Gentleman. The Minister said

“if the scheme is to be delivered, we must address the issues of community interest and values that my hon. Friend”—

the hon. Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset—

“raised. It is my desire—no, it is my mission—that that is delivered. We must turn these plans into action.”—[Official Report, 18 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 895.]

I welcome that sentiment, previously expressed by the Minister, to get moving on infrastructure projects. I only wish that that desire was shared by more of his colleagues.

It would be remiss of me not to make a point more generally about the Government’s infrastructure policy. It is distressing that they currently have a poor record of getting desperately needed infrastructure projects off the ground. We have had plenty of announcements and promises of extra funds. We have seen lots of press releases and pictures of Ministers in hard hats, all designed to create the impression of activity. They distract from their failure to deliver a one-nation plan for jobs and growth. We have seen few results.

The 2011 national infrastructure plan identified 40 priority infrastructure investments that the Government said were of national significance and critical for growth, but many of those have not been started. A comparison of the construction section of the Government’s November 2011 infrastructure pipeline with the update published in April 2012 shows that no progress has been made on 171 of the projects—three quarters—while progress has actually gone backwards on 36.

[Andrew Jones]

I thought the hon. Lady did marvellously well to say, “One-nation infrastructure plan” with only a momentary glimmer of a snigger. Will she join me in at least recognising and congratulating the Government on the step change in their approach to rail electrification, a key part of our infrastructure, noting the difference between 9 miles in the previous 13 years and 850 miles so far under this Government? Surely that is worthy of support?

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I, myself, was not sniggering. On his substantive point, I refer again to the Government’s own figures. We can look at isolated projects where there might have been some progress—I am obviously very keen, as a north-west MP, to see that sort of development on my local railways—but I refer again to the figures: three quarters of the projects have stalled and 36 have gone backwards. We cannot look at one project in isolation; we need to look at the whole picture.

[Andrew Jones]

rose—

[Luciana Berger]

I will continue, if that is okay.

Even for the projects that are on schedule, many are not due to begin construction for months or even years. Almost a year later, business is still asking, “Where are the diggers on the ground?” We all agree that we need infrastructure investment, but where is the delivery promised time and time again by this Government? A recent industry survey found that 60% of respondents claimed that a

“lack of clarity from the government”—

was the factor that most discouraged investors from investing in large-scale infrastructure projects here in the UK. Therefore, the lack of clarity on measures such as community benefit needs to be addressed urgently.

In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will be able to give us details about plans for a community benefit package for Hinkley Point. Will he also confirm whether the package will include the retention of business rates? Will similar arrangements be made available for future new-build nuclear projects? As I mentioned previously, this is not about a project in isolation but about the whole issue of community benefit. I urge the Minister to use his remarks to end the uncertainty and to give clarity about community benefit packages, so that renewed focus can be placed on delivering these vital infrastructure projects.

14:13

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. It would have been in any case, but particularly so given your recent elevation, which has been referred to already, to the chairmanship of the Procedure Committee. It is also a delight to speak in a debate led by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger), and I congratulate him on securing it. His assiduity in making the case on behalf of his constituents has almost reached the point of relentlessness. So much so that, in the short time that I have been a Minister in this role, I have spent a good deal of it working with him in the interests of the people whom he represents so well. It is delightful also to speak opposite the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), and I look forward to doing so many times. I think that it was Disraeli who said that the greatest education is adversity. I hope she learns as much as possible from the adversity of opposition.

The proposals for a community benefits package for nuclear build, as has been said by a number of hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset, need to be seen in the context both of the Government’s approach to energy policy more generally and, as the hon. Lady said, the Government’s approach to infrastructure investment more generally. In doing so, one has to mark, as I did earlier in the House, the fact that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones). Given ideal circumstances, we would not be starting from here.

The need to invest in energy infrastructure has been as plain as the nose on your face, if I can put it in those terms, Mr Walker, for a considerable time. We have known that our nuclear build, largely predating 1985 when the last build was made—most of our nuclear infrastructure was built in the ’60s and ’70s—was ageing. We knew that coal was coming to an end, because of that important commitment to emissions, and that much of our gas infrastructure was reaching the end of its life. The decisions to make new investments in nuclear and other energy infrastructure could have been made—I hesitate to be too partisan, but should have been made—a long time ago.

In a curious way, that is very exciting for me. What it means is that I can now make those decisions in my new job, and can do so under landmark legislation, namely the Energy Bill, which, as hon. Members know, we plan to introduce to Parliament before the end of the year. In doing so, it is important to take into account not only the importance of attracting sufficient investment to make that a reality, but three other points that I want to highlight at the outset.

First is the need to assure all those concerned of a high level of cross-party agreement about these matters. When things are in the national interest, there is a proud tradition in the House of parties coming together. There are many examples, but I will not tediously list them. There can be no better case than this of something that is clearly, palpably, in the national interest, not least because the decisions made now will bind future Ministers, future Governments and future policy. By their nature, these are fundamental decisions of a scale that has been mentioned already, and will have an effect for many decades. Nuclear build takes something of the order of 10 years, once the investment is put in place in the first place, and then has a life, judging from international experience and our own experience here, of approximately 50 or 60 years. We are therefore making decisions over an immense time scale at an incredible scale. I hope that we can build consensus around policy. I was delighted with the tone and content of the remarks made by the hon. Lady in those terms.

We need a new paradigm with regard to effect—the way that this affects communities and the way that people who live near the location of that kind of infrastructural investment and will be directly impacted by it, feel a sense of ownership, a sense of buy-in, of those developments. Historically, we have not always got that right, but these things are iterative and we learn by our experience. It is very important, as we put this strategy together, to engage in new thinking about the character of community benefit. That is why—not just because of his local interest in these matters, but because of their national significance—my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset is doing such a service to the House in repeatedly making the case for a new approach to community benefit. I hope, in the few moments available to me, to be able to do that this afternoon, and to do so with this initial commitment. This needs to be done urgently, because, of course, anxieties and concerns are bound to take root without the clarity that both my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady have called for. We need to do this speedily and make it crystal clear, and I personally commit myself to doing that.

As my hon. Friend said, I plan to meet community leaders from his locality. He has generously invited me to Bridgwater, and since then one or two details of that visit have been cemented. He has a lavish reception planned for me; it is almost a state visit that he has in mind. He tends never to underplay these things. That will be an opportunity for me to have meaningful discussions with the people whom he represents that will focus on economic growth, skills and jobs, and on the other benefits that the community might reasonably anticipate, given the scale of the investment that we are speaking of.

As I said during the previous Adjournment debate last month, I wholeheartedly agree that challenges arise for communities hosting new nuclear power stations. Those challenges are not straightforward or easy to deal with; they are significant. However—my hon. Friend was frank about this, as was the hon. Lady—we are convinced about the need for new nuclear power stations. The advantages of nuclear, which I will not describe again in excessive detail, are well established and, in part, relate to their advantage in respect of emissions. Investing in nuclear power is an effective way to help us to meet our 2050 emissions targets. More than that, it helps us create a new opportunity in respect of skills and jobs for the United Kingdom that will reduce our dependence on imported gas, for example, as domestic gas gradually becomes a smaller proportion of the means by which we fulfil our demands.

There is no change in approach in respect of nuclear as a priority. Indeed, I am probably the most pro-nuclear Minister who has ever occupied this job, and that is not to underestimate my predecessors in any sense. I am enthusiastic about the prospect of building new nuclear power stations and putting them at the heart of our energy strategy.

The planned nuclear development at Hinkley Point will, as my hon. Friend suggested, provide 6% of the UK’s electricity, powering some 5 million homes. It is an extraordinary project in terms of scale. The new nuclear programme will also substantially contribute to the Government’s growth strategy, by creating significant numbers of jobs throughout the UK.

Another aspect of getting this right is ensuring that we get the supply chain strategy right. Community benefit and the supply chain are not the same thing, but there is an overlap and, of course, there are parallel considerations in terms of significance and time scale. We must ensure that, wherever possible—I send this signal out strongly—these are local jobs and local skills, including those relating to the construction and running of the plant and all the work done thereafter, including, of course, the disposal of waste and so on. We must encourage local economic activity in the vicinity of the new plant and enhance the social fabric of local communities simultaneously.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

My hon. Friend the Minister hits on an important point that I did not mention, although I should have done so; it was remiss of me. The Nuclear Industry Association, which he is aware of, has been superb in trying to get jobs and setting up infrastructure in my locality. It should be praised, because it has worked so hard in an industry that is starting up again in quick time. It has embraced the challenge laid down by the former Government and this one. My hon. Friend is an enormous supporter of the job done by the NIA. It is marvellous.

[Mr Hayes]

It is often my experience—you are the personification of this, Mr Walker—that people of great insight are often people of great generosity. My hon. Friend has illustrated that in his contribution so far and exemplifies it in his generous remarks a moment ago.

We will need to do a significant amount of work in respect of skills. I began to take an interest in the number of people who will be associated with this nuclear development and the skills required in my previous job as Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. I hosted a meeting with the industry to begin to quantify the skills needed and the infrastructure that we would need to put in place to meet that need.

In talking about community benefit, we need to speak about the chance that this development offers us to invest in the local community through the provision of a range of jobs at all skills levels. We have to get that right, and we must not in any sense do so out of sync with other considerations.

[Luciana Berger]

I have listened carefully to the Minister. I welcome his identifying the need to consider such skills, particularly when the skill set has not been needed for quite a while. What conversations has he had with his colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about what investment may or may not be going into our universities? I understand that the nuclear departments of universities are depleted or not in the state that they should be in.

[Mr Hayes]

I miss my colleagues at BIS. I miss the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), although happily I visited him briefly at BIS yesterday. Let me assure the hon. Lady that I have discussed this matter specifically with my successor. It may necessitate a new initiative, bringing together BIS and my Department in a way that allows us to continue to explore where the provision will come from to meet the skills needs. It is a further education and a higher education challenge. We need to ensure that that work is co-ordinated across the two Departments, precisely as the hon. Lady describes. In initial discussions, I suggested to my right hon. Friend that he and I, and others, should combine to ensure coherence and consistency across the Government.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

May I put a little icing on the cake in respect of the question of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger)? The previous Secretary of State for Energy opened the nuclear skills academy at Bridgwater college in my constituency. EDF is also building a large conference facility there, with auxiliary opportunities, and West Somerset community college has built a huge skills department. My hon. Friend the Minister is aware of those examples; I am trying to jog his memory about all the things that have been going on. More importantly, we are now considering other tertiary colleges throughout the UK, as he is aware, to provide other nuclear skills training. I need to check this personally—it is my problem and no one else’s—but I believe that the university of Manchester is leading a lot of the work.

[Mr Hayes]

The meeting that I chaired at the Cabinet Office to consider these matters, which I have mentioned, was with the nuclear skills academy. We agreed at that meeting that it would act as the conduit by which the skills that the industry needed were articulated and through which the mechanisms needed to meet them through the provision of money were organised. That is at the heart of the process. I commit to ensuring that that is pursued with appropriate diligence.

The Government’s strategy for growth that I described necessitates our seeing the bigger picture in respect of the benefits that communities might get in terms of learning, skills and jobs. In the previous debate, I outlined the significant rewards for communities in such areas. That is sustainable economic growth, some of which lies beyond the confines of section 106 agreements. My hon. Friend made the sound point that it is not enough to rely on section 106 in that respect because we are now talking about a much broader range of challenges—intergenerational, actually, as well as anything else.

The purpose of section 106 agreements is to mitigate the effect on local communities and to compensate for disruption, but they are not, as my hon. Friend rightly said, the ideal vehicle for dealing with developments that host infrastructure for national benefit over such a long period. We need to work with local communities to consider the broader challenges associated with such infrastructural development.

Locally, public support for new nuclear power stations is typically high, and as my hon. Friend said, people in his area have lived with nuclear power for a long time. He mentioned some who recalled the original nuclear build. We must, however, now change our assumptions about the character of such buy-in and engagement. As the new Minister, I am determined to think afresh about how communities can take a degree of perceived ownership of such projects. That does not, by the way, apply only to nuclear power but to infrastructural investment across the board in my area.

There is also a broader point to do with infrastructure investment more generally, but I will not comment on that because I never step too far beyond my ministerial brief. In energy certainly, for a while now the idea abroad has been that things are imposed, rather than people feeling the sense of ownership that my hon. Friend described. That is one reason why we have called for evidence on onshore wind, where that sense of imposition is widely felt.

We have asked people to make the case for community benefit—for the best way to ensure that communities feel that sense of ownership—and for how we can make further progress in ensuring that the vital say of local people helps to direct policy. The same case might be made for other forms of generation as well. We are not discussing only a rejuvenation of existing policy and certainly not a mere restatement of the status quo. This is a chance to create a new paradigm on community benefit, and that is what we shall do.

We have consulted extensively with local communities in all the sites that have been identified as suitable for hosting new nuclear power stations, with frequent visits and stakeholder meetings. Indeed, I insisted on engagement with the non-governmental organisations and met them yesterday. I had a fruitful and lengthy discussion with a range of NGOs in the area of nuclear, and I made the commitment that we will work on the basis of extensive consultation. I hope that we have a productive dialogue; although we will not always agree, it is important to respect opinions and to respond to fresh ideas.

Through such discussions, those large projects will bring national and local benefits, as well as a large number of jobs in both the construction and operational phases. Where communities are being asked to host large infrastructural projects that, although contributing significantly to national energy production and growth, will affect the local area, section 106 agreements need to be targeted effectively. I have said that such agreements are not enough alone, but they should not be disregarded. I want to say rather more about the agreements before I move on to what we will do beyond them.

Typically, a new nuclear power station will take up to 10 years to construct, as part of one of the largest infrastructure developments planned for the UK. There will be 60 years of operation, and current policy requires the building of an interim nuclear radioactive waste facility that can be safely operated for at least 100 years before the waste is moved into a planned geological disposal facility. The work force will be 5,600 at the height of construction, and there will be heavy traffic and associated noise.

I will take this opportunity to say a word about waste, which has also been mentioned in the debate, because there is a similar argument about disposal. There are ongoing discussions with a number of localities about the disposal of waste. Again, community engagement and community benefit are important, as is the process by which people can make decisions on such matters, and of course there must be appropriate consideration of the geological effects of any decisions. The new paradigm that I describe must include consideration of disposal, as well as new build, and we will ensure that that happens.

The recent agreement between EDF and the local authority under section 106 involved almost £100 million, which is a huge sum of money that will be spent in a way that benefits the communities affected by construction, including up to £8.5 million for housing funds; £12.8 million to a community fund for measures to enhance the quality of life in local communities; almost £16 million on highway improvement schemes; and more than £7.1 million to improve local skills and training, among other initiatives.

On previous occasions, my hon. Friend has referred to business rates retention, about which he feels strongly. I understand that there is some confusion on the subject, and I shall attempt to untangle the misconceptions in my few remarks today. Business rates will be retained by local authorities that host nuclear power stations in the same way as growth in other sectors is retained. From April next year, local government as a whole will keep a share of the business rates collected, together with the growth on that share. The Government are currently considering responses to a technical consultation on the final design of the scheme, but it will provide a major boost for those authorities that grow their business rates revenues. A safety net will be available to provide support to those authorities whose business rates income falls below a certain percentage, and that will be funded within the system by a levy on those authorities that receive disproportionate benefit from growth in business rates.

Retention will mean a significant income for the local authority, but it will not mean that local authorities keep all the business rates. It is not, therefore, part of any proposed community benefit package, but only an effect of the huge increase of business rates to the area as a result of the operation of the power station. That is the confusion: people thought that retention was the community benefit package, but it is not, and the community benefit package will exist outside and beyond that. The business rates advantage that I describe will not last for ever—for a maximum of 10 years—and, as I said, that is neither long enough nor goes far enough to support local communities, so it would be an inappropriate vehicle given the scale of investment and the time scale discussed.

In the previous debate, my hon. Friend made the point that business rates would only be retained by the local authority that hosted the site—in the case of Hinkley that would be West Somerset—but I am delighted that, in the spirit of localism, the Government’s proposals for business rates retention also invited local authorities to work together to pool their business rates income, including growth from new development. That is a specific response to the representations of my hon. Friend and others. Today, he amplified that need to take a pan-authority view, rather than to get undesirable tensions between different local authorities as an unintended consequence of policy. I hope that he welcomes that further development.

Guidance was set out earlier this year in the Department for Communities and Local Government document, “Business rates retention scheme: Pooling Prospectus”. Local authorities have been invited to work together voluntarily to develop proposals allowing a number of authorities in an area to come together to share the benefits and risks of business rates retention. Pooling business rates would provide a new tool to deliver what is needed to promote growth and jobs, allowing investment decisions to support economic priorities. It would encourage collaborative working among local authorities, exactly as my hon. Friend described, rather than constraining such activity within administrative boundaries. It would allow the benefit from investment in economic growth to be shared throughout a wider area, potentially providing a growth dividend to pool partners. Pooling would also help local authorities to manage volatility in income by sharing fluctuations across budgets.

A combination of section 106 agreements and business rate retention will provide significant opportunities for local communities, but as I have said, they will not be sufficient on their own.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I apologise to the Minister and hon. Members for being late. I had forgotten about the switch to a 1.30 start in Westminster Hall.

One comment from the Minister is very welcome. Ongoing business rates means that there will be investment in skills and other opportunities throughout the plant’s lifetime, not just its initial commissioning. The focus on the pooling of rates is very welcome.

[Mr Hayes]

I described the assiduity of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset in representing his constituents, and perhaps it is matched by that of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who has spoken to me repeatedly and at great length about the interests of her constituents. She hosts an existing nuclear power plant. I am grateful for her acknowledgement of the progress that is being made. I have never been an excessive stickler for punctuality, which I always think is the preoccupation of very small minds and people who do not have much to do.

A community benefit package should indeed go well beyond section 106 agreements. The sum of money is large, but community benefits must be more than that. The national infrastructure plan, which was published in 2011, committed the Government, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree said, to introducing proposals by the end of the year for reform of the community benefit regime. Since the last debate, I have done a lot of work on this in a number of ways, as have my wonderful officials. We have looked at a range of means by which a community benefit package might be delivered, and we are close to a conclusion. The hon. Lady will be pleased about that because, charmingly and with appropriate diligence, she pressed me on the timetable.

I am pleased to say that we have made progress in considering the options. We are considering how a community benefit package can best be delivered in the interests of local people in line with the principles that it should be meaningful for the community, be spent by the community, be fair and equitable across different sites, and have a long-term impact.

The focus of a community benefit package is on planning and investment for the time after the construction period, enabling long-term, sustainable growth by redeploying labour and creating new business opportunities. That will help to ease the transition between the fluctuating employment levels during construction, and the more stable and sustained employment levels associated with operation of the plant. That is important in relation to what we described earlier: skills and jobs. Many of the skills required in the construction phase will be transferable by their very nature, and quite different from the skills required during operation. What we would not want to do is to create opportunities for local people to acquire skills and to get jobs without thinking through how those skills and jobs might be dispersed over time. That is a significant challenge, but not one that we should duck. We need to think that through in terms of the benefits package that we devise and implement.

Another element on which I have placed particular emphasis in our discussion is the effect on people who will not directly benefit from the project in the ways I mentioned. A range of issues, including better transport, better community facilities, and so on, need to extend well beyond the immediate economic benefit that one might expect during construction and operation.

In line with the principles of localism—a subject dear to my heart—people in the community should determine what is needed and what will best serve their community. That is part of the paradigm I described. My Department has constituted a Hinkley strategic development forum in Somerset, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset knows. It comprises representatives from central Government, local authorities, the local enterprise partnership, the Chamber of Commerce and EDF to maximise local benefits from the development that is about to happen. That forum has just had its second meeting, and feedback has been extremely positive. The format seems to have been welcomed by the local community.

Such forums could be a suitable vehicle to help people with advice on the use of a community benefit package. Local authorities are involved in those forums, but there is an argument for involving other agencies in that way with the support of local authorities. We believe that all the district councils are working constructively to ensure that the whole area benefits from the development of Hinkley Point C. We see no reason why that would change if there were a community benefit package. Local authorities have the power to form partnerships to make that a reality for the long term.

We are clear that every package will have a particularity that reflects the circumstances of the area in which development takes place. Early this week I spoke on the Isle of Wight, which was wonderful, as you can imagine, Mr Walker—I am thinking not of my speech, but of the Isle of Wight, although both were wonderful—and I made the point that a developed capitalist economy tends to lead to the deadening effect of dull ubiquity. I want the packages to be characterised not by dull ubiquity but by the exciting particularity that is guaranteed by the strong involvement and shaping of them by local communities. They must be meaningful and provide some of the things I mentioned earlier: long-term economic stability for the area and recognition that the community is hosting infrastructure of national significance.

To pick up my hon. Friend’s point, packages should not be just an income boost for a single local authority. That would be quite wrong and counter-productive. Any community benefit package must be large enough to make a difference in the short term and have an immediate effect while promoting sustainable growth over a considerable time. Discussions have been going on for some time to put together proposals for a community benefit package that meets all the criteria of being meaningful, making a difference, managing to achieve a sustainable local economy, and having a lasting impact for generations with the aim of engaging the local community in the long term.

I will introduce proposals within the timetable agreed. I will do so to the House in the form of a statement, and I will of course ensure that my hon. Friend and the communities affected are informed. As a result of the representations that have been made in this debate, I have decided to write to all local authorities concerned and to ensure that there is an ongoing dialogue there as the proposals are made.

I recognise the point that the hon. Lady made that uncertainty is unhelpful. In any strategy, certainty is a prerequisite of confidence and there will not be commercial investment or social and cultural investment—investment of belief—among local communities unless we are very clear about our objectives and how we will meet them. I can tell the House that as a result of our debate, I have decided to meet the Economic Secretary to the Treasury today, with the aim of coming to an agreement shortly on the total value of the package. He will receive a text message from my Parliamentary Private Secretary and, knowing the diligence of the Economic Secretary, I am sure that he will be waiting for me when we finish the debate.

Progress has been made over the last few weeks and more detail will follow shortly. We are clear that communities deserve recognition and clarity on what that recognition will mean for them. As I have said, it will give me immense pleasure to provide that clarity in the very near future.

In conclusion—I know that there will be some disappointment that I am drawing my remarks to a close so speedily—much of the misunderstanding, or absence of understanding, around energy policy springs from the past excessive emphasis on cause, and the inadequate consideration of effect. We have talked too much about production and not enough about consumption, and there has been too much about supply and not enough about demand when discussing energy strategy. Part of the new approach that I have outlined is to put fresh emphasis on effect and on demand.

[Luciana Berger]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I am delighted to, even at this very late stage.

[Luciana Berger]

I have listened closely to the points that the Minister has made. Will we see in the forthcoming Bill dealing with electricity market reform, measures on demand reduction? As he will know, the Opposition raised serious concerns that the draft Bill contained nothing on demand reduction. Having listened to his contribution, I wonder whether what he has said will translate into a change in the Bill when it is introduced.

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point, which was also made by the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change when it scrutinised the draft Bill. We are in discussions on that issue, and the Department is drawing up that Bill, as she knows. The Secretary of State and I are both clear that demand reduction needs to be given greater emphasis. The hon. Lady, however, would not expect me to anticipate what will be in the Bill. It would certainly be inappropriate, and possibly even worse procedurally, to do so, Mr Walker. However, she can have my absolute assurance that demand reduction will be given an emphasis that it has not had previously. We have listened closely to the representations of the Select Committee and others, as well as the Opposition. Governments can learn from Oppositions—never quite as much as Oppositions can learn from Governments, but none the less, she has made a powerful point to which we will give further consideration.

To conclude the debate, we may shortly be in a position to clarify the community benefits package that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset seeks with such vehemence, to articulate a new paradigm for dealing with major infrastructural investments in the area of energy, and to redress the balance in terms of the debate between supply and demand, and production and consumption. If so, I will then be able to live up to the description that has been made of me, as the people’s Minister for Energy.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

Mr Liddell-Grainger, would you like to use your two minutes to respond to the debate?

14:53

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

Thank you, Mr Walker. I was not intending to, but I will, now that I have been given the chance. I thank my hon. Friend the Minister immensely, and also the Opposition spokesman, for really bringing together what is a very complicated area. I am also delighted that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury has come through by text to say that they will meet. That will give enormous reassurance to my district councils and my county council. However, I also gently say to my hon. Friend that we can set a long-term goal of benefiting local communities not only for Hinkley Point but for many other infrastructure projects. Such huge projects are, by and large, as he suggested, very welcome, and we just want to know that we are being listened to. My hon. Friend is listening and taking forward absolutely the right ideas, and we look forward to welcoming him down in West Somerset, Sedgemoor and the county of Somerset. I thank both Front Benchers again, but especially my hon. Friend the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

14:55

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

Thursday 18 October 2012

Employee Owner Status (Consultation)

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced on 8 October the creation of a new employment status of “employee owner”.

Today I am launching a consultation on how the Government will establish this new employment status. This coincides with introduction of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill.

Under the new employment status, employee owners will have a different set of employment rights and they will be given shares in the company of between £2,000 and £50,000. Any increase in value of these shares will not be subject to capital gains tax.

The consultation ends on 8 November, copies will be available on the BIS website and in the Libraries of both Houses.

Post-Council EU Competitiveness Council

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)]

The EU Competitiveness Council took place in Luxembourg on 10 and 11 October 2012. I represented the UK on research issues on 10 October, and also for some items on 11 October on internal market and industry. Shan Morgan, Deputy Permanent Representative to the European Union, also represented the UK for a number of items on 11 October. A summary of those discussions follows.

The research session of the Competitiveness Council started with agreement being reached on a partial general approach (PGA) on the main elements (budget was excluded) of the European Institute of Innovation and Technology (EIT) amending regulation. The main focus of subsequent discussion was on the Horizon 2020 rules for participation regulation (“the Rules”), which sets out the rules under which participants in Horizon 2020 must operate and the arrangements through which they receive funding.

Following an initial roundtable, which confirmed member state positions on reimbursement (those that wanted only flat rates and those that wanted a full economic cost option for indirect costs) and remuneration of researcher salaries (where the EU12 were seeking to achieve greater harmonisation of salaries across Europe, either by means of coefficients or by relaxing the current guidelines on bonuses), the presidency broke for lunch with Ministers to begin negotiations towards a compromise deal. A further roundtable after lunch confirmed the offer of increasing the indirect cost flat rate to 25% (from the presidency’s text 23%) and placing a cap of €8,000 per researcher per year on bonuses that could be reimbursed. With the presidency on the point of conceding defeat on agreement of a partial general approach on the rules, the UK intervened to drop its request for a full economic cost option having secured sufficient concessions on flat rates. This was followed by Germany and Finland taking a similar position on the promise from the European Commission that it would produce guidance on high value infrastructure costs that could be counted as direct costs, which would be reimbursed at 100%. On this basis the presidency concluded that agreement had been reached.

Following the conclusion of negotiations on the rules for participation, delegations received a short presentation on the Commission’s proposals for the European research area and open access to scientific data. Member states were broadly supportive, although some member states would like to see a more ambitious approach to improving gender equality amongst European researchers.

This was followed by Commission presentations and brief interventions from member states on Commission policy initiatives in relation to implementing the European research area and open access to scientific data.

Finally, Ministers had a short discussion over lunch on the future of the European strategy forum on research infrastructures (ESFRI).

The main internal market and industry issues discussed on 11 October were: the European consumer agenda; European industrial policy, including Council conclusions on key enabling technologies and the European innovation partnership on raw materials; and; a debate on the state of play of Single Market Act I.

A Council resolution was agreed on the European consumer agenda, welcoming the Commission’s May 2012 communication which set out actions to boost consumer confidence and growth. There was no discussion on this item.

The European industrial policy item covered three communications from the Commission on industrial policy, sustainable construction and cultural and creative sectors for creative growth respectively. This was a round-table discussion, on which most member states intervened. I intervened to welcome the communications, but also to stress the challenges facing European industry. I emphasised that regulation was often holding us back, and that regulation needed to keep pace with progress and innovation, for example in biosciences and space related industry. I also drew the Council’s attention to the fact that other jurisdictions appear to have been more successful than the EU in creating and growing new and innovative companies. Finally, I also restated UK opposition to the proposed instrument on reciprocity in public procurement.

Most member states also supported the communications. There will be Council conclusions on European industrial policy for agreement at the December Competitiveness Council.

The second part of the European industrial policy item concerned Council conclusions on key enabling technologies and the European innovation partnership on raw materials. Heading into Council, there was one outstanding issue on the conclusions concerning matching aid and the ongoing state aid review, where new text had been proposed by the French delegation. A compromise text was agreed by the Council pertaining to the need for an “inclusive debate” on state aid, without specifically mentioning matching aid. Many member states supported the French proposals, but equally, a number of countries highlighted that they had agreed with the original text. There will now be a debate on state aid at the December Competitiveness Council.

Over lunch, there was a discussion on the role and functioning of the Competitiveness Council. The UK was represented by Shan Morgan over lunch, though I had raised the suggestion earlier in the morning that the Council could invite relevant speakers to address the Chamber. There was some support for an annual report on progress on the growth agenda, and an interest in linking in more closely to the European semester and European Council preparations in general.

The final substantive agenda item after lunch was a debate on the state of play of Single Market Act I. The UK intervened to thank presidencies past and present for their work on progressing the Single Market Act, but also stressed the importance of ensuring existing single market rules are properly applied, and the need to follow through on the proposals contained in the Commission’s June communications on the services directive and single market governance. The UK also took the opportunity at this point to welcome the publication of Single Market Act II, in particular the objective of more efficient and integrated networks.

Most other member states intervened to emphasise that priority must be given to those measures in the Single Market Act that will do most to boost growth, with the Dutch and Czech delegations, amongst others, highlighting the need for reducing red tape and better impact assessment of proposed measures. France and Italy alone mentioned the social dimension of the Single Market Act, with the French delegation specifically raising reciprocity.

Draft conclusions will be prepared for the December Competitiveness Council.

Four AOB points were covered. The first concerned the recent roundtable on the future of the European steel industry. Discussion was not expected, but several member states, including the UK, intervened to welcome the focus on the issues facing the steel industry and to highlight their wish to be involved in any follow up work from the roundtable. The second AOB point concerned results from the 12th European tourism forum and the third was a presentation by the German delegation on state aid for films—the UK intervened on neither issue. Finally, the Commission presented the SMA II package. There was no discussion on this item, most delegates had covered their intervention as part of the Single Market Act I discussions.

Narrative Reporting (Draft Regulations)

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

Today I have published draft regulations that will improve the quality of narrative reporting by Britain’s largest companies. These regulations will improve corporate accountability and transparency, and make it easier for shareholders to hold their companies to account.

This package of proposals recognises and encourages the best in reporting, of which there are many examples, and without stifling innovation, sets a model for others to follow.

These regulations will restructure the format of corporate reports. One important change will be the creation of a strategic report, based on the business review, which will contain the important information investors and other stakeholders want to see first. I believe this will result in confident strategic reporting where companies present a clear and succinct picture of themselves and their activities.

The regulations will remove some outdated and unnecessary requirements about what companies should cover in their annual reports. They will also enhance current reporting by making explicit the requirement for companies to consider human rights issues. The regulations also implement a recommendation from Lord Davies’ review of Women on Boards so that companies will be required to disclose the number of women and men within the organisation as a whole and at senior and board levels.

These regulations are not intended as a stand-alone method to improve corporate reporting. During our consultations it became clear that there is a greater role for guidance, not just on the content of annual reports, but also about how to ensure reports are meaningful and concise. The Financial Reporting Council will consult on the style of revised guidance early next year.

I believe that this package of reforms will reenergise annual reporting and send a strong signal in support of the best in annual reporting, while at the same time reshaping reports to guide others in the right direction, through regulation, best practice and guidance.

Business Rates

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)]

I am today announcing the Government’s intention to postpone the next business rates revaluation in England to 2017. Primary legislation will be brought forward through the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, which will shortly be laid before Parliament.

Business rates are the third biggest outgoing for local firms after rent and staff costs. This decision will avoid local firms and local shops facing unexpected hikes in their business rate bills over the next five years. As business rates are linked to inflation, there will be no real-terms increase in rates over this period. This reform will provide certainty for business to plan and invest, supporting local economic growth.

Since the last revaluation (based on 2008 valuations), the economy and property market have faced exceptional changes. A revaluation at this point would be likely to result in sharp changes to business rate bills in many parts of the country and in many sectors. Tax stability is vital to businesses looking to grow and help improve the economy.

The Government are committed to maintaining up-to-date rate bills through regular five-yearly revaluations in England which will resume after 2017, once the economy has had a chance to recover fully from the financial and fiscal crisis this Government inherited from the last Administration.

These measures complement the local retention of business rates being introduced through the Local Government Finance Bill which will give councils new incentives to support local firms and local shops, and also complements the new power to introduce local business rate discounts, the automation of small business rate relief and the abolition of the unfair “ports tax” all enacted through the Localism Act 2011.

Equality and Human Rights Commission

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

I am pleased to announce the appointment of Baroness Onora O’Neill of Bengarve as the new chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Her appointment is for a period of three years, four months and 20 days, commencing on 12 November 2012 and ending on 31 March 2016.

The process by which Baroness O’Neill was appointed followed the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA) code of practice for ministerial appointments to public bodies, and was scrutinised by an OCPA public appointments assessor throughout. Baroness O’Neill appeared before a parliamentary pre-appointment scrutiny hearing on 16 October, which was conducted by the Joint Committee on Human Rights and chaired by Dr Hywel Francis. The report confirmed that Baroness O’Neill was a suitable candidate for this appointment.

I am delighted that this rigorous open competition has resulted in the appointment of a very able chair to lead the Equality and Human Rights Commission to become the valued and respected national institution we all want to see.

NATO Parliamentary Assembly (Membership)

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

The right hon. the Baroness Taylor of Bolton has replaced Lord Sewel of Gilcomstoun CBE as a member of the United Kingdom delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly.

Syria

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I would like to inform the House of the latest developments in Syria since my statement of 3 September 2012.

The situation in Syria remains dire. More than 25,000 have died since March 2011. The UN estimates there are over 2.5 million people inside Syria in need of urgent humanitarian help and over 340,000 Syrian refugees who have fled from the brutality of the regime to neighbouring countries.

The British Government’s objective is a peaceful end to the violence and a political transition to a more democratic Syria. We believe that Assad must step aside in the interests of the Syrian people if a sustainable transition is to occur.

We are continuing intensive diplomatic efforts to make progress on a political transition. We are supporting the UN-Arab League Special Representative Brahimi in his efforts to implement the Geneva communiqué which sets out a process of political transition and which was agreed by the permanent five members of the Security Council and the Arab League in June. We continue to believe that there is a need for a chapter VII resolution putting the full weight of the Security Council behind a peaceful settlement and will continue our efforts to that end. However, in the absence of Russian and Chinese agreement to such a resolution we are intensifying our work in four areas: supporting the Syrian people and political opposition; increasing pressure on the Syrian regime; preparing for a political transition; and helping mitigate the humanitarian and regional effects of the crisis.

First, in our work to support the Syrian opposition, we have expanded our assistance to those in parts of Syria where the regime is no longer in control. With the £5 million non-lethal assistance that I announced in August we have trained citizen journalists and other activists in media skills; and in the coming weeks we will train civil society groups to document human rights violations; train doctors to gather evidence sexual and gender-based violence; and train a network of “active citizens” in peacebuilding and conflict resolution skills. We are also providing generators, communications equipment and water purification kits to unarmed opposition groups and civil society organisations in some of the areas worst affected by violence.

We are at the forefront of international community activity to support the international and external opposition to become a viable political alternative to the Assad regime. On 18 September the UK’s special representative to the Syrian opposition chaired a meeting of countries to agree a strategy to encourage the opposition to unify and present a common vision for Syria. We are working with Qatar to support an inclusive opposition conference in Doha at the start of next month. We have made clear the importance of the opposition reaching out to all elements of Syrian society to reassuring them of their place in the Syria of the future.

Secondly, the UK is leading efforts to increase pressure on the Assad regime and to deny it sources of finance with which to buy more weapons. We helped to secure the latest round of EU sanctions agreed on 15 October which targets senior members of the Assad Government we believe share responsibility for the regime’s violent repression of the Syrian people. We also remain at the forefront of the international community in calling for the situation in Syria to be referred to the International Criminal Court to ensure that the perpetrators of the most serious international crimes will be held to account. With our strong support, the Human Rights Council in Geneva adopted a resolution on 28 September which condemned the continuing violence in Syria and extended the mandate of the UN Commission of Inquiry to enable it to continue its invaluable work in documenting human rights violations and abuses.

Thirdly, we are working with international partners to ensure that the international community is ready to support the process of political transition in Syria. At the Foreign Affairs Council on 15 October, I encouraged the EU to start developing plans for how the EU can support a future Syrian transitional Government and to support peacebuilding initiatives with civil society inside Syria.

Fourthly, we are working to mitigate the impact of the crisis on Syria’s neighbours. The House will be aware the British Government have been clear about our diplomatic support for Turkey, including through NATO, following recent aggressive Syrian actions on the Turkey-Syria border. We have supplied practical assistance to Lebanon to help improve border security and provided stabilisation assistance to Palestinian camps in the region.

The British Government are also working to address the humanitarian impact of the crisis. The Secretary of State for International Development has increased our humanitarian support to assist people in desperate need in Syria and those who have fled to neighbouring countries. We are providing food to over 80,000 people a month in Syria, urgent medical care for over 50,000 people affected by the fighting, and help for more than 45,000 refugees. Humanitarian needs will increase as winter approaches. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for International Development last month announced an additional £8 million in humanitarian support to provide essential supplies to help the Syrian people over the coming months. The UK is the second largest bilateral donor with £39.5 million in funding for the Syrian people but UN appeals for assistance remain drastically underfunded. We are working closely with key donors to ensure that the international community stands by the Syrian people during their time of need.

Last month, at the United Nations General Assembly in New York, the Secretary of State for International Development and I urged other donors to provide more to address the escalating humanitarian crisis in Syria.

I will continue with my colleagues in Government and with international partners to pursue action in support of a resolution to the crisis in Syria. I will keep the House informed of developments.

NHS Modernisation

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

The Government’s estimates of the costs and benefits of implementing those policies in the Health and Social Care Act 2012 that required legislation were contained in the “Coordinating Document for the Impact Assessments and Equality Analysis” published in September 2011. These estimates reflected the changes that the Government made to their proposals following the listening exercise and the report of the NHS Future Forum.

Officials have been tracking closely the actual costs and benefits of the changes. The publication of the Department’s annual report and accounts for 2011-12 provides an opportunity to give an update on these figures. I can now report to the House that the current estimate of costs is in the range £1.5 billion to £1.6 billion. Although higher than the most likely estimate made in the impact assessment (£1.2 billion to £1.3 billion), the costs remain within the wider possible range published in the co-ordinating document (£1.0 billion to £1.5 billion), after taking account of some costs (estimated at £127 million in total) that were excluded from the impact assessment either because they were out of scope (for example, because they related to measures not requiring legislation) or because they were redacted (for example, because they were commercially sensitive).

Within this forecast I now expect redundancy costs to be around £630 million, which is £360 million lower than the highest estimate in the impact assessment and some £180 million lower than the most likely estimate.

In the impact assessment, long-term annual savings arising from the changes were estimated at £1.5 billion per year from 2014-15 onwards. Gross savings over the transition period (2010-11 to 2014-15) were estimated at £4.5 billion.

Annual savings are still expected to be £1.5 billion from 2014-15 but the cumulative savings over the transition period are now forecast to be £1 billion higher, at £5.5 billion.

For comparability with the impact assessment, all the figures above are stated using 2010-11 prices.

Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

The first annual report of the Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking is today being laid before Parliament.

The report will show that more work than ever before is being carried out both in the UK and internationally to prosecute criminals and stop trafficking gangs in their tracks.

The report is an assessment of the trends in human trafficking in the UK. It also sets out the work underway to reduce the threat posed by organised criminal gangs and the support mechanisms in place for victims.

Copies of the report are available in the Vote Office.

Court Estates Reform Programme

Thursday 18th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

On 14 December 2010 my predecessor announced to Parliament the final decisions following the consultation on the potential closure of 103 magistrates courts and 54 county courts. This included the relocation of Rhyl county court to Prestatyn magistrates court (to be renamed Prestatyn law courts) in April 2013.

The work required to implement this decision has proved more difficult than anticipated. My officials are continuing to engage with local agencies and the judiciary about the best way to achieve this relocation. Pending the outcome of these discussions and any further consultation that may be required, I have deferred the relocation of Rhyl county court until no earlier than April 2014.

House of Lords

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 18 October 2012.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester.

Scotland

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked By

[Lord McAvoy]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote the benefits of Scotland remaining within the United Kingdom.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, this Government firmly believe that Scotland is, and will always remain, better off within the United Kingdom. In June, the Secretary of State for Scotland announced a programme of cross-government work to inform and support the debate on Scotland’s future. This work will report from early 2013 and will produce detailed evidence and analysis to assess the benefits of Scotland remaining in the UK to both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and welcome the content of his Answer. Does he agree that the campaign for remaining within the union, which the Labour Party supports fully, needs to be a positive case put to the Scottish people, emphasising the social and economic benefits of remaining within the United Kingdom, and not a negative case as that would be counterproductive? Will he accept my assurance that the Labour Party will stand four-square with all unionist parties in Scotland in this referendum campaign?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, those are very welcome words from the noble Lord, speaking on behalf of the Labour Party. I think it is well understood in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom that while political parties may have many differences on many different issues, we are completely united in our belief that the United Kingdom is the best way to preserve peace and prosperity for all the people of these islands. The noble Lord is also entirely correct when he says that this campaign needs to be a positive one. It should be. There is a very positive case for keeping the United Kingdom together in terms of our position in the world, the protection of our citizens and the economic benefits to all the people of the UK.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, at the risk of repeating myself, I have a deep concern about whether the Electoral Commission, which will play a big part in this forthcoming referendum, will be up to the job. Will the noble Lord ensure that the appropriate Ministers meet the Electoral Commission to ensure that it is capable of dealing with the problems that this referendum will throw up?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to voice his concern, but I am glad to say that the Electoral Commission has, over the past few years, learnt a lot from both running referendums and overseeing various elections. Both Governments—the UK Government here at Westminster and the Scottish Government—have agreed that the Electoral Commission should play its normal role, as for all other referendums. It is well understood by Ministers that this is a key referendum for the future of this country and it is important that we should get it right.

[Lord Stephen]

My Lords, is my noble friend the Leader of the House aware that, although there is very broad cross-party support for the campaign to maintain the United Kingdom—that very much includes the Liberal Democrats—there has been considerable concern about the role of the Electoral Commission and the question that will be put to the people of Scotland? For example, when the question that is currently supported by Alex Salmond and the SNP is tested by opinion poll, it generally gets a significant advantage—some are saying up to a 7% advantage—compared with a more neutral or balanced question. That is of concern to every one of us here. Will the UK Government make sure that the Electoral Commission plays a full and active role in ensuring that the referendum is not rigged or manipulated by the SNP and that the referendum question and all aspects of the running of the referendum are handled and set in a fair, open and transparent way that is published and understood not only by the people of Scotland but by those in the whole of the United Kingdom who have a deep interest in the outcome of this important vote?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. This is extremely well understood by politicians on both sides of the border. The Electoral Commission has an absolute mandate to do precisely as he suggested—to report and to lay that report in the Scottish Parliament, and of course it will be available here as well.

[Lord Gordon of Strathblane]

Does the noble Lord agree that independence is a moving feast, as reflected in the concern shown on all sides of the House about the question? I regard Scotland as an independent country at the moment but I am happy to renew my marriage vows with England. The key question is: does Scotland want to leave the UK? The matter must be closely focused on that single issue. Otherwise it will be lost in a mass of spin from Alex Salmond.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have up to two years of debate before we get to a referendum and I am sure that many people and organisations will make the point that the noble Lord has raised. Independence is not for Christmas; it is for life. Of course, the benefits of the United Kingdom need to be well understood before we get to a referendum.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, can my noble friend deal with the anxiety about the question? It is now going to be decided by the Scottish Parliament, which means Alex Salmond in consultation with the Electoral Commission. Would a way of ensuring that the referendum is fairly conducted be to say that the Section 30 order, which transfers the power to the Scottish Parliament, will not be brought before either House of Parliament until Alex Salmond has published his draft Bill setting out the question and the rules for the conduct of the referendum and the franchise?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Section 30 order will be published next week, and both Houses of Parliament will debate and, it is hoped, pass it in due course. I cannot see that there is any great advantage in seeing Mr Salmond’s Bill before we pass the Section 30 order. After all, it can be amended in the Scottish Parliament. However, we understand that we will get the publication of the Scottish Government’s consultation, which will include their view of what the question should be, and that should be available in the next few weeks.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

I understand perfectly that this issue has to be handled sensitively without there appearing to be any attempts at bullying or cajoling the Scottish Parliament in deciding what to do. If the draft Section 30 order is published next week, it will be left entirely up to the Scottish Parliament to decide what to do. That is really going too far. Does the noble Lord agree that there ought to be a period of reflection before the Section 30 order is laid before us so that we have at least some idea of what the Scottish Parliament has in mind?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there will be a period of reflection but it will not be very long because we want the Scottish Parliament to get on with it and to set the date and pass the necessary legislation so that we can clear the air in Scotland and get a decisive result at the referendum.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the agreement says “intelligibility” when it comes to the question, and that begs a question in itself. Can we please make sure that the question is not merely intelligible but that it is not loaded and is entirely unbiased? I do not think that this House or any other should contemplate passing the order unless we are satisfied in that regard.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is precisely the role of the Electoral Commission—to look at the question, to test the various words in it and then to report to the Scottish Parliament as to its intelligibility.

Slavery

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Question

11:15

Asked By

[Baroness Hamwee]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking, to coincide with Anti-Slavery Day, to raise awareness among relevant agencies and the general public of the possibility that individuals they encounter may be the subject of modern slavery.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I am sure the House will be aware that today is Anti-Slavery Day, which is an important day. However, human trafficking is not just a one-day issue. As the activity of the interdepartmental ministerial group on human trafficking shows, the Government are not complacent, and cannot be in the light of today’s report. The Government are committed to tackling this issue on a continuing basis.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I welcome the publication of the report, which shows that increasing numbers are being detected. That may of course be because increasing numbers are being reported. There is a widespread view among people that trafficking does not happen in their neighbourhood. What advice do the Government give if one suspects that a man working in a restaurant or a young woman working in a nail bar is the victim of trafficking?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

They should report any suspicions of trafficking to the authorities: either the police or their own local authority. There is a lot of cross-agency working to tackle this issue. I think the noble Baroness is correct: this is an increasing problem and one that will need increasing effort to try to contain.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, 17,000 Royal Naval sailors died suppressing the slave trade. Indeed, in 1966, as a midshipman I was on a small coastal minesweeper that arrested a slaver. I am sure that the Minister would like to make sure that this fact is known globally as well as within certain parts of our own community. In celebrating Anti-Slavery Day, perhaps he would wish well the celebration this weekend of the 207th anniversary of Trafalgar and the death of Admiral Lord Nelson.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord gives me a tall order but one on which I am happy to oblige. Of course, we celebrate Trafalgar and indeed Lord Nelson’s contribution to that victory. This country has been at the fore in seeking to tackle slavery, but our history has different shades on this issue. It is very important that we recognise it as a global problem today. That is why we are working abroad in India and the Asian sub-continent to help to make sure that modern slavery still does not happen in these times.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, can the Minister assure us that in the negotiations on the repatriation of some elements of the European Union directives on joint home affairs and justice issues, our Parliament and our Government will give special consideration to making sure that all the orders affecting slavery or trafficking will be very carefully considered before they are repatriated? The straightforward reason is that all the evidence on trafficking is that it is Europe-wide, indeed worldwide, and is not restricted to this nation.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is right to point out that this is a Europe-wide issue, which is why co-operation is directed Europe-wide. There is a directive to which we are fully signed up, and we will work together with our European colleagues to make sure that we tackle this crime, which is pan-European and in which this country has a vested interest in trying to repress.

[Baroness Corston]

Will the Minister accept that nearly 20 years ago, when I was a Member of the other place, I had a constituency case involving a young woman who had been brought into this country allegedly as a servant by a wealthy family? She had been kept for two years as a slave. I do not believe that it was an isolated incident. What measures do the Government take to ensure that families who bring servants into this country from overseas are treating them as employees and not as slaves?

[A noble Lord]

Good question.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I heard a voice say, “A good question”, and it is indeed a good question. It is an abuse that is a form of slavery, which this Government cannot tolerate. Let us be clear; this is not an easy area. Those involved in trafficking can be cunning and deceitful, and there is widespread use of false documents and fraudulent job offers. We need to be clever in the way in which we handle the issue, which is why we are using information and intelligence to catch these people and why cross-agency interaction is so important.

[Baroness Young of Hornsey]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether his department has any intention of introducing independent monitoring to make sure that the cutting of red tape in small businesses and commercial organisations does not impact on the progress that we have made so far in cutting down trafficking and slavery?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am the Minister in the Home Office responsible for the red tape challenge, so I will bear that point in mind. It is a challenge within the Home Office because, in essence, we are a regulatory department. We would want to do nothing that made the risk of human trafficking the greater.

[Lord Whitty]

In view of that context and the figures on trafficking for labour in the paper this morning, will the Minister please assure us that there will be no further restriction on the role or resources of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, and indeed that its scope will be improved by extending it into other sectors?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not know whether I can say that there will be no change to the scope of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. The noble Lord will know that forestry workers have already been taken out of scope. Indeed, the reforms of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, which fall more under my previous brief than the current one, pose a new challenge to the organisation to focus on areas with the greatest risks, and this is one of them.

Police: Strike Action

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Question

11:22

Asked by

[Lord Blair of Boughton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the decision by the Police Federation of England and Wales to ballot their members on whether the legal prohibition on police officers taking strike action should be repealed.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the Home Secretary has been clear that police officers cannot strike, and that is not going to change. As a civil emergency service it is vital that the service is able to discharge its duty to protect the public and to keep the peace at times of serious national and local disorder.

[Lord Blair of Boughton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, with which I agree. However, I am more concerned to know how we got to this place. I should point out to the House for the avoidance of doubt that this Question was laid down before the imbroglio concerning the Chief Whip in the other place came either to my notice or to public notice. My supplementary question is in three brief parts. First, in 93 years this is the first time that the Police Federation has balloted its members: does the noble Lord believe that that indicates a breakdown in trust between the Police Service of all ranks in England and Wales and the Government? Secondly, whether he believes that or not, does he accept, as I do, that a substantial number of police officers believe that there is a breakdown in trust? Thirdly, what are the Government going to do about it?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Government do not underestimate the strength of feeling among officers at the moment. The Home Secretary and the policing Minister regularly meet with representatives of the Police Federation, the Police Superintendents’ Association and members of the Association of Chief Police Officers to discuss ways of tackling this issue. We are looking of ways in which we can ensure a greater input from officers of all ranks in policing matters. We will continue to engage with police officers and staff to ensure that their opinions help shape future policing policies.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that whatever the outcome of the ballot, it will be a fair and valid expression of the views of Police Federation members, and particularly so if the turnout is higher than in the forthcoming ballots for police and crime commissioners? Can he also give an assurance that any government response to the outcome of the likely Police Federation ballot will not be given by the Government Chief Whip in the House of Commons for fear that he uses the kind of language he normally reserves for addressing on-duty police officers?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sorry about and rather disappointed by that question. The relationship between government and police is clearly very important, and we are aware of the difficulties at this particular time. I think we all recognise that this is a period of change for the police. The Government want to engage in particular with the Police Federation, because it is holding the ballot, and with all sections of the police force to see a new era for policing that brings the police fully into the modern era.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, where there is an obligation on a service not to strike, is it not important to have respected mechanisms in place for fixing the terms of service for that particular service? Could the Minister direct attention to that aspect for the Police Federation to consider rather than striking? I think it would be much more constructive to look at whether better arrangements could be made for the adjustment of terms of service than perhaps exist at the present time.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, there is a tribunal which considers these matters and, indeed, there are issues before it at the moment. I think that today is the first day on which it is taking evidence. There is a mechanism in place for resolving these issues, but there is also an argument which I think the Government should not be afraid of putting to the police force. The Tom Winsor proposals give the police an opportunity to improve their flexibility of working, for improving pay scales so that there is a better step up from constable to sergeant, and making sure in many ways that the pay structure for the police force, which was set up 30 years ago, is fit for purpose today.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, when the right to strike was removed in 1919, it followed large-scale disorder on the streets of the United Kingdom and by implication recognised the very special position that the police service was in. Does the Minister agree that the special case for the police—the X factor if you like—should always be borne in mind when the Home Secretary is deciding issues concerning the police?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My answer to that is yes.

[Lord Hurd of Westwell]

My Lords, in view of the line unfortunately taken by the Front Bench opposite, would it not be a good idea if all parts of this House sent out a clear message that the inability of the police to strike, far from being an oddity compared with others, is an essential part of the relationship between the police of this country and the public? Is that not the essence of this matter, whatever the purpose of the ballot might be?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend for a positive contribution which takes the debate forward. As I think I have expressed, the Government are anxious to make sure that the relationship is a good one. We are not alone in our relationship with special groups of people. The Prison Service and the armed services also have prohibitions on striking. We recognise the importance of our relationship with the police service.

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords—

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

I think we should hear from my noble friend Lady Doocey. The Labour Benches have had two.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Lord McNally]

I think that noble Lords will find that I have given a fair run around the House. It is fair to hear from my noble friend Lady Doocey.

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, do the Government accept that when they reform provisions for long-term sickness, a distinction must be made for police officers who have been injured in the line of duty so that they are not unfairly penalised?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That extends the Question a little further than my brief. We recognise that the retirement age for the police will remain at 60, even under the renewed proposals; it will not be made the same as for others. Everybody realises that it is a stressful job that can involve physical hazards. I appreciate the supplementary question, but I am sorry that I cannot comment in detail on it.

Fire Services: Funding

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Question

11:30

Asked By

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the risks arising from proposals to reduce funding for fire services outside London.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, single-purpose fire and rescue authorities outside London have had a change in their revenue spending power of minus 2.2% in 2011-12 and minus 0.5% in 2012-13. Many fire and rescue authorities are making sensible savings without impacting on the quality or breadth of the services offered to their communities. It is for each fire and rescue authority to determine the operational activities of its service through its integrated risk management plan, which is subject to consultation with the local community.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Has she had a chance to study the letter sent to her by Members from all parts of your Lordships’ House, and also the letter sent to her department yesterday by the six chief fire officers of the metropolitan areas, in which they stated that current proposals would lead to the loss of 2,500 front-line firefighters and 100 fire engines, and to the closure of 60 stations? In an area such as Merseyside, this would lead to a 33% cut, when it has already made cuts of up to £20 million and lost 500 firefighters in recent years. Given the terrible tragedies that can be wreaked by fire, and the inherent risks to public safety that may ensue, would it not be sensible, before this becomes an issue of antagonism, public debate and concern, for the Government to commission an independent risk assessment so that we can be clear about the implications of these proposals?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I indicated, once the Government have made decisions on funding, it is up to each fire authority to deal with the standard of service that it provides. It is worth noting, thankfully, that the number of fires has gone down, largely due to the work carried out by fire authorities. Given that, the response need may be slightly different.

[Baroness Chalker of Wallasey]

Would my noble friend be agreeable to meeting the Secretary of State in an all-party delegation on this matter? I ask because I do not believe that, following previous value-for-money changes in metropolitan fire services, the proposal before us is the right solution. We need to discuss it calmly and I hope that the Minister will persuade her Secretary of State to receive such a delegation.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will understand that I am perfectly prepared to pass on her request, but I know that the fire Minister is already in close discussions with the metropolitan fire and rescue services and is listening very carefully to what they are saying.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I understood the Minister to say that London had been protected from the recent round of cuts over the past two years. I also understand that this was due to the Olympics. Will she confirm that there will now be fairness in the distribution of reductions in budgets, particularly in view of the fact that a number of senior firefighters believe that there is now a danger to the delivery of the national resilience policy because of the unevenness of the impact of the cuts across the country?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, there are different views about the impact of the reductions. Depending on where you are in the country, you may have a different view. The best thing that can happen—which is happening—is that the consultations should continue until decisions are made on the next spending allocations.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, does the Minister understand that little that she has said up to now today will strengthen the morale of authorities such as the Greater Manchester fire and rescue service, which serves courageously in very high-risk and deprived areas, is often under attack while on call and feels that it is being disproportionately hit by unfair cuts? Is not the fairest way a flat-rate cut for all fire authorities and not to allow 84.2% of the cuts to fall on the metropolitan authorities?

[Baroness Hanham]

To answer the right reverend Prelate’s initial comments, of course we all recognise the very valuable service that the fire authorities carry out. I indicated earlier that I thought that the reduction in the number of fires is due to the expertise of the fire service, and it is to be greatly welcomed. I acknowledge that there are really bad exceptions to that and that the fire service then carries out a heroic and very valuable role. Local authorities, including fire and rescue authorities, were asked to respond to a consultation on how the baseline distribution should be set in 2013-14. I cannot pre-empt the future settlement position and, as I said earlier, there is not a settled view among firefighters on whether it should be based on a flat-rate cut or on other methods.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The Minister will be aware, because we have debated it extensively, that we are about to embark on a new business rate retention scheme as well as a poll tax mark 2. Is not the reality of the business rate scheme that it will further entrench the inequalities and inadequacies in funding and could do so for up to seven years if the Government have their way on how the system will work?

[Baroness Hanham]

Yes, my Lords, the business rate retention scheme will have some effect on the fire and rescue authorities and their direct levers for growth. We have therefore proposed that single-purpose fire and rescue authorities should keep 2% of the local share of business rates.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

First Reading

11:37

The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed.

Business of the House

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Motion on Standing Orders

11:38

Tabled By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 23 October to allow the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:38

Tabled By

[Lord Strathclyde]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Baroness Perry of Southwark set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Baroness Hooper to two hours.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Education: Development of Excellence

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

11:38

Moved By

[Baroness Perry of Southwark]

That this House takes note of the measures that develop excellence in education.

[Baroness Perry of Southwark]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to open this debate on excellence in education, and I look forward with great pleasure to hearing the speeches from so many noble Lords today.

I know that all in this House share my passion for raising the standards in our schools so that every child can develop his or her own talents, and every Government have tried to achieve this goal. I pay tribute to the previous Government for having made education a priority during their time in office, and I acknowledge their heritage, not least in the creation of the best generation of young teachers that we have ever had and in the development of the early academies—just as, I hope, they are equally generous in acknowledging the heritage of their predecessors.

Today, I should like to address the measures which this coalition Government have put in place to achieve the elusive goals of every school a good school and an education system that allows Britain to win in the global race of the future. The themes of the Government’s actions in education, as in all aspects of policy, are a radical shift away from overweening state interference, a belief in the power of every individual to contribute to the public good, and a passion for excellence. For education, this means trust in the professionals in our schools and colleges, raising aspirations for all and thereby enabling achievement by the provision of structures within which students can aspire to succeed—and can compete for success in the fields where their talents lie.

I want to make clear that, for me, excellence is defined not just by academic attainment. There is far more to good education than exam results and far more to exam results than achievement in academic subjects alone. Vocational exams are every bit as valuable for those who choose that route; I will return to that issue later. Adult life, whether in employment, family life or friendships, asks of a social, emotional and spiritual richness. Good schools work to foster those skills, based on a strong framework of moral and ethical values that inform every aspect of the school’s life, both inside and outside the classroom.

Last week, I attended the opening of a new learning centre in a sixth-form college. I congratulated the young people and their principal on their new facility. Of course good buildings and equipment are aids to learning and it was good to see young people enjoying the fine facilities on offer, but excellence does not reside in those facilities alone. In every education debate that we have had in this Chamber over many years, there has been unanimous agreement that teachers are the one factor on which the quality of education rests. The question that this Government have addressed is what we can do to bear on the quality of teachers.

It is a source of sadness to me that the approach to improving achievement in recent times has been to regulate, dictate, control from the centre, inspect with the aim of finding fault, create league tables of examination results and punish where failure is discovered. This approach, although I am sure it is made with the best of intentions, simply has not worked. The message of this approach to schools and teachers is to work only to the regulator’s requirement, to seek the easiest way to achieve good grades in the league tables and to work with the children who will add to their league table scores while allowing the weaker students to be ignored and the brightest to go unstretched. While, happily, many schools refused to follow that route, the result has been to cause the biggest gap between the high-achieving pupils and schools and the lowest achievers that we have ever seen in our history.

The coalition Government have tackled this question by looking at what teachers—those key factors in quality—need from government to allow them to succeed. Overwhelmingly, the answer is that schools and teachers need freedom to exercise their professional competence and judgment. In short, they need trust. Some years ago, I attended an international conference about educational quality. Delegates from many countries whose international performance was in many cases far from outstanding enthusiastically told stories of curriculum change, investment in new buildings, legislation, regulation and so on. Finally, it came to the turn of the delegate from Finland, whose students score at the top of every international league table. “Well”, he said, “we do not have many of those things. You see, we just trust the teachers”. It was a lesson I never forgot.

We spend a great deal of money on educating the dedicated young men and women who choose to serve as teachers in our schools and colleges. Many of them are among the brightest and best of their generation. This Government have done absolutely the right thing in pursuing policies that trust them to perform at the highest level. Setting schools free through the academies programme has been an act of faith, trusting schools and teachers to make the right choices for the young people in their care. That faith has been fully justified. Not only do we have over 500 sponsored academies, with sponsorship from every kind of charitable and business organisation as well as from churches and religious bodies, but we now have almost 2,000 academies from schools that have converted. This is a massive endorsement of the programme from the wider community and from the profession itself.

Most important, though, is the level of achievement that these academies have given to the young people who attend them. Through strong leadership, gifted teaching and high standards of discipline, achievement has been raised far beyond expectation. Other speakers today will give examples of the amazing success of the schools that were failing their pupils in every way but were turned into high-scoring, high-achieving academies in the space of a very few years. These are stories of life-changing opportunities for young people, raising their aspirations, giving them both academic success and all the self-confidence that gives, and pride in their school uniform, respect for the rules of discipline and loyalty to their school and its values. These are priceless gifts indeed.

Another significant and exciting development has been the creation of free schools: schools set up by local communities and groups involving parents, business, universities and professionals that meet the needs and aspirations of a community for high-quality education. About 80 of those schools have opened in less than two years, with many others approved to open in the next year.

The key result of those reforms, the biggest and most radical for generations, is that the Government have put the professionals in the driving seat, allowing them freedom from government micromanagement, taking the punitive, fault-finding inspections off their backs and allowing them to respond to the needs and interests of the children in their care. Of course, their freedom is balanced by proper accountability. They are accountable to their governing bodies, their students and their community but accountable, above all, to their own high professional standards.

It remains the proper role of government to provide the structures within which schools and teachers can work to ensure that their pupils will achieve. The framework of both the curriculum and examinations is under careful review, and the reforms that have so far been announced will begin to restore the world-class reputation which this country once enjoyed and which it has so sadly lost in recent years. The English baccalaureate certificate will set new demanding standards in maths, English, two sciences, a foreign language and a humanities subject. The pull of the curriculum which these new qualifications will provide will mean a huge increase in the number of pupils studying subjects such as geography, history and triple sciences. In 2010, only 23% of pupils were studying what in anyone’s terms are those basic subjects. That will rise to 47% next year. It is an achievement of which the Government can be proud.

In Ofqual’s review of the curriculum, it is my hope that the importance of religious education will also be recognised, and perhaps restored to the core of those qualifications. At a time when the understanding of other religions is so necessary and when knowledge of the established religion of our country is being alarmingly lost, the argument for good RE for all young people seems to me strong.

Single final exams, requiring students to master each subject with confidence, will replace the modular structure. A modular structure has encouraged spoon feeding and teaching to the test. One-off final exams offer freedom for teachers in methods and approach in ways that modular structures made impossible. Equally, they allow students to explore a subject in greater depth. The exams will discriminate appropriately between the highest achievers and those of more modest achievement, just as every other aspect of life does, from sport to show business to promotions at work and even in politics. We need to identify our stars if we are to compete in the world of the future.

The majority of 16 year-olds are capable of performing in those core subjects to the new demanding standard, and I have every confidence that with the freedom to work to their own professional methods, teachers will rise to the challenge of the new examinations. However, not all young people are motivated by academic study, and it is important to ensure that the substantial minority who do not wish to or are incapable of pursuing academic qualifications have satisfying alternatives. As a country, we have in the past not done enough in our education provision to provide for the nearly 60% who do not go on to university, and our economy has paid the price for that failure. Tough employer-approved vocational exams will replace the jungle of qualifications of varying value that are currently available.

I am also a huge supporter of the university technical colleges pioneered by my noble friend Lord Baker—I am pleased that he is speaking later in this debate. Maintaining the study of core subjects to age 16, they will provide high-quality industry-sponsored technical courses to inspire young people who are uninspired by a wholly academic programme. Five UTCs are already open, with 28 more approved. Within the next two years, I hope that at least 40 of those pioneering colleges will be open. Similarly, 16 studio schools are already open and another 16 approved. These cater to young people in the 14 to 19 year-old age range who learn in more practical ways. They offer work experience, sometimes paid, and a tough curriculum combining academic and vocational subjects. It is no surprise that those schools have proved to be both popular and successful in the early years of their life.

Many vocationally motivated young people are every bit as intelligent as their academically minded contemporaries, and their skills are vital to the economy of the future as well as to the fulfilment of their own aspirations. The growth of university technical colleges and studio schools under this Government has at last addressed the issue of a rigorous, satisfying vocational route for the many young people whose talents lie in that direction.

The primary years are perhaps the most important in any child’s education. They provide the basic skills that open the world of learning and the attitude to learning that he or she will take through the next long years. It is simply a national shame that in recent years one in three children have left primary school without an adequate ability to read, write and add up. More than 40,000 leave primary school at the age of 11 with a reading age of only seven. It is therefore much to be welcomed that the Government have put forward consultation proposals for a core primary curriculum that proposes rigorous high standards in the key areas of maths, English and science, with a much welcome requirement for a foreign language at key stage 2. Outside this core, teachers will have much greater freedom to follow their own professional skill. Very rapidly, we can look to a primary education that gives 11 year-olds the skills and attitudes they need if they are to succeed in their secondary years.

I cannot fail to speak also of the world of higher education, where this country punches so far above its weight. With centuries of academic freedom to their credit, our great universities take their place in the top few in the world. After the United States, no other country features in the top ranks of the international league as we do. It cannot be too strongly urged that nothing—no, nothing—is done to diminish the academic freedom that has fuelled this success. Our leading universities must be free to choose the brightest and best of each generation of young people. The competition for their genius is keen and our competitors recognise that success in this highly competitive global economy depends on them. Trusting the professional academics to spot talent wherever it can be found must be a priority for any Government.

There is much to be done. We have fallen so very far behind our competitors in the world and failed many of the generations of young people who are now out in the world without the basic skills needed to allow them to find a satisfactory place in adult life and work. The great task has begun, however, and the pace of change in this Government’s policies is amazingly rapid. I commend our Government for all that they are doing. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, but perhaps at this point I may remind your Lordships that this is a timed debate and it would be much appreciated if Back-Benchers could keep their remarks to the four minutes allocated.

11:53

[Baroness Morris of Yardley]

I will try to do so. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, for bringing this debate to the House. From the number of speakers, your Lordships can see what a popular debate it is; the only consequence is that we have very few minutes in which to express our views. I want to concentrate on one aspect and illustrate it with a number of examples, and to begin by sharing some of the noble Baroness’s words. She paid tribute to the high standards that we have and the improvement that has been made in our education system. She put that down in large amount to the very hard work of school leaders and teachers. I join her in thanking and applauding them. I have not always shared her analysis of where we are now or how we have got here, but perhaps that will wait for a later debate.

The point I want to start on is that where we have had success and raised standards—on almost every indicator, we are performing better than a decade ago—it is because we have identified what works and enabled schools to copy that behaviour. That spreading of good practice has rarely been invented in Whitehall; it has usually been found in our best schools. Whitehall at its best has created the structures and means of spreading that to other schools. I pay tribute to both Governments, as through a whole array of measures—Excellence in Cities; federations and chains; heads working in both good and underperforming schools—we have managed to do that.

I want to concentrate on two or three examples where the actions of this Government are deterring schools from doing what we know works and will raise standards. The first example is in sport and art, and all those subjects which are not in the English baccalaureate. I do not want to make an argument against the English baccalaureate. I do not need to be persuaded that the subjects within that assessment and examination are ones which children should know and learn, and be confident in. Our nation and each of those children need them for the future. However, the consequence of that policy is that up and down the country schools are dropping subjects that are not in that group. The noble Baroness mentioned the consequences of targets and league tables: teachers teach to the test and concentrate on those children who can deliver the results. That is what is happening with the English baccalaureate. I cannot have a definition of a successful education system that is not rich in sport, art, music, creativity and all the subjects that are not part of the English baccalaureate.

My second example is the pupil premium. It is an excellent initiative, and I congratulate the Liberal Democrats on bringing it to government, but they must have been as worried as I was to see the recent research that states that schools are not spending the resource on the interventions that are proven to have the greatest impact on school achievement.

In both those cases, and in vocational education, which I think I can confidently leave to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, the Government are taking actions that are defensible in their own right, but the consequences are that some schools are not doing the things they ought to do.

I know from my experience as a Minister that Governments are bound to have priorities. That is the nature of government and is where Governments put their energy and resources, but the Government have to understand that in having priorities there are implications and consequences. Two years into this Government, some of those consequences are coming to fruition: there is too little emphasis on art, creativity and music, and professional autonomy is not balanced by the obligation to use teacher interventions that work with children. Getting that balance right is crucial to delivering an education system that encourages and delivers excellence for all our students.

11:54

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry on introducing this important debate. I am sure we all want the outcomes she described, but we may not all believe in the same methods to achieve them. To my mind, there are two requirements before an excellent education can be achieved: the first is excellent teachers and the second is eager children who have been prepared through their experiences in the early years to be able to make the most of their education. Notice that I did not say anything about structures, and notice also that I did not mention the idea proposed by Mr James O’Shaughnessy of Policy Exchange, the Prime Minister’s former policy chief, that we should allow for-profit companies to take over schools which only recently were considered satisfactory. There is no place for the profit motive in state schooling during the compulsory years. Money is too tight to siphon some of it out of the classroom and into the dividend cheque. To quote one of my noble friend’s colleagues, “No. No. No”. I hope that the Secretary of State is not tempted to go down that path.

My second requirement is a little more controversial than it might sound. We have heard a lot recently about ensuring that children are school ready. On the contrary, I think we should ensure that schools are ready for children and should take account of research when we are considering how best to help our children benefit from their schooling. Work by Dr David Whitebread and Dr Sue Bingham of the University of Cambridge was published only yesterday by the Association for the Professional Development of Early Years Educators, an organisation dedicated to raising the standards of those who work with very young children in all settings. They brought together various studies to question whether the earlier-is-better approach to early years provision is the best way forward. They have concluded that it is not. I should clarify that they are not against provision for two year-olds. It is the date when formal teaching commences that is in question. For example, in 2007 Suggate et al looked at a large sample of children, some of whom started to learn to read at five and others at seven. They discovered that by the age of 10, those who started at seven had not only caught up but had better comprehension of the text.

Another piece of evidence comes from what we know about summer-born children. We know they are disadvantaged in our system, both academically and socially, in that they are 50% more likely to be diagnosed with special educational needs. Research shows that birth date differences even up quite quickly in countries where children do not start formal learning until they are seven. Surely this indicates the damage that can be done to children who are only four for the majority of their year in the reception class. It is alluring to believe that early reading and early academic success are beneficial, but Kern and Friedman in 2009 discovered that early reading often leads to less life-long educational attainment, worse midlife adjustment and worse mortality. This aligned with the findings of the famous HighScope project.

Subjecting children too early to a lot of direct instruction forces them to use parts of the brain that are immature and this can be damaging. It has also been shown that if children are asked to learn things by rote or repetition, they can do it, but they are using the lower, less sophisticated limbic parts of the brain. Later, when asked to do tasks that need the more complex parts of the cerebral cortex, they have a tendency to use the lower parts instead. We need a social pedagogy model rather than an inflexible, time-limited, curriculum model. Can the Minister assure me that the roll-out of early years provision for two year-olds will take account of this and other research?

12:01

[Lord Broers]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, on calling this debate and on her outstanding opening speech. I find myself unusually in full support of the Government’s proposals—at least those of Mr Gove that I read about in the Times yesterday about post-16 education. I have long called for an end to the extreme specialisation required by the A-level system as it is used in the majority of cases. This has left many scientists and engineers with little practice in expressing themselves literally or orally, and their intellects without the key benefits that learning at least a second language provides. On the other side of CP Snow’s cultural divide, it has left those who opt for the arts and humanities insufficiently numerate and without a knowledge of how the increasingly technological world around them functions.

We have been alone in the developed world in allowing—even encouraging—such specialisation. It has meant that our students possess more advanced knowledge in their specialisation than, for example, American students when they leave school, but find much later that they lack the complementary skills needed to be effective in the real world—either to be able to persuade others of their position or to understand the complexities of the modern world. They then have to acquire these skills when their minds are less agile. Our society has almost encouraged this. Many still hold to the vision of the back-room scientist or engineer, who is extremely clever but lacks the overall vision or ability to lead. We still hear our leaders and politicians almost boasting about their lack of technical understanding and their inability to distinguish between megawatts and gigawatts.

I brought this up many times since joining this House. Six years ago, in the opening paragraph of the summary of recommendations of the report of the Science and Technology Select Committee on science teaching in schools—an inquiry that I chaired—we called on the Government to replace A-levels over the long term with a broader-based syllabus for post-16 students. The Labour Government’s response was to encourage people to expand the availability of the international baccalaureate diploma, but in reality little happened. The proposals of Mr Gove, therefore, are very welcome, although I know that they will receive some resistance from those academics who take a narrow view and are interested only in students excelling in their specialities and do not want them distracted by other topics. This issue extends into higher education and it has long been my position that more universities should follow MIT in having a compulsory humanities, arts and social science component in their science and engineering degrees. Things seem at last to be on the move, and I strongly support the proposals for a broader-based syllabus for post-16 students.

12:04

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for this debate. The recent Church School of the Future review highlights the Church of England’s aspiration for the 1 million pupils in our schools to experience excellent education. The Manchester diocese educates more children in these schools than any other diocese. We entirely support the noble Baroness’s emphasis on not narrowing our understanding or means of achieving excellence. I offer your Lordships an example.

The Resurrection Church of England primary school in downtown Manchester has an inspirational head teacher who is deeply concerned about the low standard of writing in her pupils. She addressed this by encouraging each year 6 pupil to write to a VIP, including the heads of the Armed Forces and the Archbishop of Canterbury. Their carefully written and illustrated letters invariably elicit responses. As a result, these pupils have an annual visit to Carrington to meet Sir Alex Ferguson and the United team; they have an annual residential visit to an RAF base where they sit in a Tornado; and each year they visit Lambeth Palace for a picnic and then go on to see the London sites and visit the National Gallery. There, they choose a picture on which to base the choreography of the Resurrection school dance, which is a stunning and moving performance that they give for visitors. Last year, they chose Titian’s “Noli me Tangere” and this year they chose Caravaggio’s “The Supper at Emmaus”. Most of these children will never have been in an aeroplane, a Tube train, a palace, let alone have lunch in one, or seen anything like the masterpieces in the National Gallery.

The Resurrection school in Manchester is a supreme example of providing an excellent education with a Christian ethos by imaginatively looking beyond the narrow confines of leagues tables and resisting the utilitarian tendency to see the goal of education as simply league tables and economically viable and employable young people. In achieving that, as the school undoubtedly does in its numeracy and literary skills, Maureen Hogarth, the head teacher, and her staff also achieve excellence in these children’s holistic education by broadening it to include social, moral, cultural and spiritual development. In so doing, they inspire confidence and accomplishment in pupils who have all kinds of abilities and come from many different backgrounds, some of them deeply deprived.

I also want from these Benches to endorse strongly what the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said about not including religious education in the English baccalaureate or the newly announced EBCs. I fear that religious education will languish on the sidelines even though it is said to be compulsory. That will deprive pupils of the ability to understand and engage meaningfully with issues of faith, which undeniably play a vital part in the lives of 75% of the world’s population. It really is very unwise to try to sidestep that important subject.

Finally, as the bishop of a diocese that contains the highest concentration of university population in Europe, I completely endorse the noble Baroness’s views about maintaining the high place in the world of British universities, including, of course, the excellent University of Manchester.

00:00

[Lord Baker of Dorking]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of two educational charities and I draw no remuneration from them. I wish to speak only about technical education, an area in which all parties have failed over the past 150 years. The reason for that is that the classic curriculum written by Thomas Arnold in 1840 has dominated English education and has been reinforced by the EBacc. As a result, technical, hands-on and practical learning has been eliminated from English schools.

We had technical colleges in 1945, alongside grammar schools. They were in shabby buildings and were closed by snobbery because everyone wanted to be the school on the hill and not the school involved with dirty jobs and greasy rags. It was a huge mistake. Germany did not make that mistake. It still has a tripartite system, which is one of the reasons why Angela’s ruling the roost. It is not the only one, but one of them.

Four years ago, Ron Dearing and I said that we must recreate these technical colleges and make them better. The university technical colleges are for 14 to 18 year-olds. We believe strongly that 14 is the right age to transfer, not 11—11 is too soon, 16 is too late. We have already discovered that if you treat 14 year-olds as adults, they come to college in business dress. They are given a laptop or an iPad. They start working with their hands for 40% of the working week. They turn up, truancy disappears, bloody-mindedness disappears—referral pupils come to these colleges and they attend.

Each college is supported by a university, so university lecturers, undergraduates and postgraduates go in and talk to the youngsters as part of the university outreach programme, thus introducing them to the richness of university life. We get local employers to create the lessons. Rolls-Royce created eight weeks of lessons on making piston pumps and trained the school staff who had to deliver those lessons. Network Rail created eight weeks of lessons on engineering and level crossing gates. The colleges are filming them, they liked them so much. The National Grid has produced eight weeks of lessons on electrical transmission. More than 400 companies are supporting the 33 schools that have been approved. Thirty-three have been approved, five are open.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hill, and Michael Gove for their support for these university technical colleges. They are the most successful free schools that have been started so far. I invite my noble friend to up the game a bit and get more established as soon as possible. There are 3,200 secondary schools in this country. There is no reason why one in 10 should not be a university technical college, giving a total of 320. It may be thought that that is ambitious but that was the number of colleges we had in 1945, and our country needs them.

This week the Royal Academy of Engineering produced a report saying that we are short of 100,000 engineers and 1 million technicians. The university technical colleges are the only schools and colleges in our country that are producing these young men and women below the age of 18. Therefore, I strongly recommend them. I am glad that this initiative has all-party support. In fact, it started under the previous Labour Government with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Stephen Twigg supports it and I know that the Liberals support it as well.

As regards the EBacc, I have set up a committee to establish a TechBacc and we will publish our proposals before Christmas. Therefore, this initiative is no longer an experiment; it is a movement. It is encouraging to find youngsters with a very broad band of abilities coming to these colleges. We are agents of social mobility. In the college at Hackney that I visited which has been open for seven weeks, 54% of the students get free school meals—that is a very high proportion indeed—and 80% are black and Asian. I met two pupils who had been expelled from their previous schools and their records were three inches thick. One of the girls was already on the school council and has decided that she wants to go on to college. These bodies are engaging the disengaged but also responding to the needs of our economy.

I repeat that my noble friend Lord Hill is very supportive of these colleges. I say to him that I have some help for him from on high. The right reverend Prelate will remember that the psalm that was read last Sunday was Psalm 90, which ends:

“Prosper thou the work of our hands upon us, O prosper thou our handywork”.

Therefore, I say to Ministers, “Prosper thou our handiwork”.

12:13

[Baroness Howells of St Davids]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, for bringing forward this debate. Having listened to it so far, I respect the need for standardisation and competition in education. However, having been engaged since the 1960s in seeking an education that takes on board the diversity of the UK, I can only say that the changes to enable black children, especially black boys, to succeed still continue to be a nightmare for parents, teachers and students. Unless a determined effort is made to unlearn the Aryan myth of white superiority, we will be standing here saying the same things yet again.

I ask the House to realise one more time that for the descendants of the enslaved African, education is the only means of achieving upward mobility. The quest for education has been described fully in an autobiography entitled Up From Slavery by Booker T Washington. It is still relevant today. Although, since its abolition, slavery has been long gone, the Aryan myth of white supremacy is alive and well, as we read every day in our newspapers It is sometimes conscious, but at other times unconscious, due to conditioning. Black adults have had to learn how to deal with this myth. Some Aryans, to their credit, have unlearnt the stereotypical view of colour. Others have not, and this directly affects the children in our schools. Teachers cannot do this alone.

Much has been done by the UK to distance itself from racism by producing many reports—Scarman, MacPherson and so on. Laws have also been put in place, including the Race Relations Act, and there have been many publications from the black community, including From Slavery to Freedom by Vidya Anand, and Gus John’s agenda for education. It does well to refer back to Bernard Coard, who suggested how the black child was made educationally subnormal in the education system. Much of that has gone but the well-being of the black child is still an experience that has a long way to go.

However, black British children in schools need equal treatment to be seen as the norm. The measures required are obvious. A case for unlearning racism has been made over and over again. Then and only then will we recognise that the black British child needs education, and that is everyone’s responsibility if we are to have peace in our country. There is a real need for booster groups for each and every school—an organisation of black and white adults who are committed to the survival of their brothers and sisters. Experience has shown that such groups’ presence in schools has an unbelievably positive impact as a source of influence for behaviour modification.

I realise that I have reached my time limit but, before I sit down, I should like to say that it is not all doom and gloom. I want noble Lords to know that Diane Abbott has held regular boostings, especially for young black boys, and now for the girls. Noble Lords will find that those who have had schooling but with extra lessons have done extremely well in this country. They have been achieving eight or 10 A* grades in their examination results. We have seen an increase in the number of children heading for Oxford or Cambridge. For that I should like to say a big thank you, but there is a lot more to be done.

12:18

[Baroness Benjamin]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for securing this important debate on education, which allows us to discuss how we can nurture and inspire future generations to aspire.

My mum always used to say, “Education is your passport to life. Go to school and learn to the best of your ability because you can use that gift of education to change the lives of others”. That is why we must make sure that we give all children every opportunity to secure that special gift of education to reach their full potential. However, not all children get that opportunity, especially if they are at a disadvantage and cannot learn at the same pace as others in the class. So there is a need for creative ways to assist these children in order to make them feel included and for them to achieve their best.

One way to assist those with learning and communication difficulties, emotional and behavioural problems, as well as ADHD, is through the use of music. Research has shown that music can produce exceptional results in learning. Children with autism can also significantly benefit from learning through music. Research has shown that if a child is taught a poem without music, they forget it by the following week, but if they learn the poem musically, they remember each word perfectly a week later.

However, music should be available not only for children with learning difficulties; it should be part of all children’s cultural well-being. Research evidence has shown that a quality music education can improve academic attainment in areas such as numeracy, literacy and language.

Sadly, because of money restraints, not all schools view music as a priority, and the responsibility has fallen to many charitable organisations to bridge this gap. Organisations such as the World Heart Beat Music Academy provide musical experiences for children and young people of all social and cultural backgrounds. It gives them a sense of purpose. One young person who has benefited from the academy said, “If it wasn’t for playing music, I wouldn’t be alive. I used to carry a knife a few years ago, but music changed all that. Playing an instrument is my protection now—I just don’t need any knives or weapons on me”. Another commented, “It’s all about gangs these days. You can see the difference between those who do music and those who don’t. We have something to take our minds off things. Instead of going out on the streets and selling drugs and stuff, we have music”. Learning and playing music with others enables young people to feel that they are a part of something—something that nobody can take away from them.

In the current global economic situation, where the widening “have” and “have not” gap has marginalised young people who can see no way out of their disadvantage and isolation, the power of music can transform their lives. The Henley review stated:

“There remains a great deal of patchiness in provision of Cultural Education across England”.

So I ask my noble friend whether the Government will encourage all schools to make adequate provision for music a priority, especially where children are in need of this type of stimulant for their mind, body and soul, and, most importantly, for their well-being, to help them to go out into the world and make a difference to society—for good.

12:22

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, I also congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry, not least on an excellent and insightful opening speech, in which she laid out the whole agenda for us. Her reward is already with her—she has had a rich cornucopia of responses and I am sure that that will continue throughout the debate.

In his inspiring, if at times fanciful, play about Thomas More, “A Man for All Seasons”, Robert Bolt inserts the following exchange between More and his ambitious young supporter and—dare I say?—almost political adviser, Rich. More has just become Lord Chancellor, with all the power, pomp and patronage that that implied. Rich effectively fronts up and says, “Well, what’s in it for me?”. More looks at him carefully and says, “I think you should become a teacher”. Rich does not think that that is much of an answer for a bright young man like him with a big future ahead of him and a patron like the Lord Chancellor. He says, “Why, why, why?”. More’s response in the play—fanciful, I agree—is, “If you do that and if you do it well, you will know it, your pupils will know it and God will know it”.

You do not have to be a member of the Bishops’ Benches or even a twice-on-Sunday, card-carrying Christian believer to get the point. Teaching is a profession and a calling. This is something we have lost in our community. Whatever the reasons—and there are many—we have lost the sense of the noble calling of being a teacher and the instantiation into our education system of that delicate relationship between teacher and pupil. Standards in education will improve only as teachers are given the status and support that they appropriately should have.

Of course it is fanciful what More says—it is not always quite like that. As a supply teacher I once went to a school and was instructed, “Keep them quiet for six weeks”—not much of a vision of teaching. I have to say, however, that I did teach them some mathematics which would have been helpful in the Department for Transport recently. I used to say, “Show all your workings and make sure that your addition is correct”, and they got the message.

I turn to the role of the teacher and the way in which it has been interfered with. Most of us interfere. I own up to doing so as a former chief inspector of schools. There is a risk that we will all interfere. So let us have a division of labour: the teachers teach and the politicians, advisers, specialists, theorists and academics—and I am one—should facilitate that role. We need to ensure that that division remains in place.

I am encouraged by the policies of the previous Government. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, paid tribute to the quality of the intake to the profession. We are in a position of facilitating, at least at that level. However, the facilitation should go well beyond that. It includes support in terms of freeing-up the teacher from an overintrusive national curriculum. I worry about religious education and sport education. There are ways of dealing with that, but that is for another occasion. An overintrusive national curriculum is a great danger and a constraint on this delicate relationship. However, we are moving in the right direction and there are good signs that the review of the national curriculum will produce helpful results. We have been here before, however, and everyone with a lobby interest queues up at the door of the office of the national curriculum and says, “Insert this”.

Ministers must resist that. There are temptations, as you grow in influence and power, to continue meddling and to think that you know best. Ministers: do not do this. There is good progress so far, but we will be watching. Make sure that the teachers have the facility and support to do what they do best.

12:27

[Lord Harris of Peckham]

My Lords, I have some experience of the subject having run 13 academies last year and 19 this year. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for talking me into sponsoring CTCs 20 years ago; the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for helping me to get eight failing schools through local authorities; and the noble Lord, Lord Hill, for giving us 10 schools in the past two years and six new schools for next September. We now have 19 schools, and we had 3,200 parents applying for our schools this year. Up until today, we have had 28,000 applicants for 3,200 places. In less than two years, four schools have gone from failing to outstanding; and of the last 10 schools, Ofsted reports have rated nine out of 10 as outstanding, including three at the new grades which were outstanding in every department. So we do know a bit about how to run schools.

We think that education is the most important thing in children’s lives. Some 73% of children in our schools are black, and 54% receive free meals. We do not pick out all the best children, we pick a mixture. We can change a school round very quickly. How do we do it? We do it by getting a good principal, who has the backing of all of us in the team, and good teachers. We also set standards for the teachers of what we expect. We expect all six of the schools that we took over last month to be outstanding within three years. That is the target that we set for all our schools. We like not only results but motivation and sport, which our schools support strongly.

Let me give some figures. Our exam results for maths and English over the past three years have gone up from 31% to 71%—a massive improvement—and the percentage of those achieving five A to C grades has increased from 49% to 96%. In our Croydon academy of 400 sixth-formers—the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, agreed that we could put five schools together—90% got qualifications enabling them to go to university and 85% did go to university. However, the problem we have—the problem that all Governments have—is getting local authorities to agree to failing schools being changed. Parents actually think that failing schools are good. A year later, parents still think they are good. To give an idea of this, we have a school in Beckenham—a classy area—which on average took in 50 children a year and had 50 come in from outside. The school had a total intake of 200 pupils. We have had this school for just one year. Last Thursday we had 2,000 parents there. Last year, instead of 100 children coming in, we took 200 from the local community. So we did not have children thrown in. It is fantastic that parents realise what makes a good education, and realise it quickly. What happened to that school? It went from 36% of pupils achieving five A to Cs in English and maths to 52%. These are the same children and we have changed them in less than two terms.

I know that we do not have much time but I would like to mention quickly that we also took over a school at Eltham Green where, five years ago, a lot of the children were murderers—some of the people involved in the Stephen Lawrence murder went to that school. We had the school for one year under contract from Greenwich council and it went from a 28% pass rate to a 73% pass rate in just one year. This year, our target for that school is 75%

I hope that we have another debate soon but I would like to finish by explaining to the House how we improve our schools and what we do. I would like to explain why I am thankful to the Government and the noble Lord, Lord Hill, for giving us the opportunity to become teaching colleges for teachers, which is very important, and also teaching colleges for heads and vice-principals of the future. One matter which is dear to my heart is that we are going to open within the next 12 months a school for 130 children who have been expelled—excluded children—not only to teach them English and maths but to teach them a trade.

12:32

[Lord Lloyd-Webber]

I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, on introducing this very important debate. I would like to share an idea which I hope may be of some value in encouraging young people to pursue careers in the vital areas of industry that this country needs if we are to prosper and which may not appear to be as glamorous as some others.

The catalyst for this idea comes from the Architectural Angel awards, which are an annual event that are now held in the Palace Theatre in London in association with English Heritage. The awards recognise the unsung people who set about raising money in order to save or restore historic buildings and who have no support from anywhere other than from themselves. I am pleased to say that the awards have hit a spot. This year we have Clare Balding presenting them, with Graham Norton and the noble Lord, Lord Bragg. The awards recognise individuals who, completely on their own, have achieved something in an area that is of enormous value to the nation but is not sung about.

My idea—I stress that this is not formed in any detail—is why do the Government not support an awards ceremony that recognises exceptional achievement by young people in industry in its widest sense, whether it be craftsmen, plumbers, technicians, you name it? My idea is that the awards would be presented in a West End theatre in exactly the same way as the Oscars or the Olivier awards, with categories to be decided and nominees in each category. I believe the awards would receive national TV coverage, generate sponsorship and provide public recognition of trades vital to this country but which do not get shouted about. If the idea has any merit or appeals to anyone, I would be delighted to offer, say, the Theatre Royal Drury Lane or the London Palladium as a venue to host the event.

On a slightly different note—which I feel I have to raise because the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, spoke so brilliantly about music in education—would it not be a good idea if we celebrated the success of the music policy at Highbury Grove school, which I am sure many noble Lords will have read about, which shows that music can make a vital difference?

I end by referring to something that I have mentioned in the House before but which is perhaps appropriate in the 50th anniversary year of the Beatles: that funding arts education should be regarded by the Government as a serious investment and not as an item for cutting.

12:35

[Lord Lingfield]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Perry for instigating this important debate. She has, of course, spent a considerable part of her life helping to improve education standards.

I want to talk about a sector of education which is too often the Cinderella of our education services—further education. I declare an interest in that I am currently chairing a government review into certain aspects of further education. Its initial report came out—not without controversy—earlier this year and I hope that the final report will come out by the end of this month. It would be wrong of me, therefore, to pre-empt the conclusions and aspirations of that report. However, there are a couple of important matters which struck me forcefully during our work which I want to mention today.

During the past nine months I have visited many outstanding further education institutions, both in the private and public sector. I have seen much to enthuse me and I have met many wonderful practitioners who are inspiring and work extraordinarily hard. I pay tribute to them. I pay tribute, too, to my honourable friend John Hayes, who was until recently the Minister of State for Further Education. He was much admired in that role and, of course, in his previous shadow role.

Further education has one extraordinarily important and worrying task. Colleges and other providers tell me that government statistics suggest that some 28% of young people who were 16 or 17 when they left school are functionally innumerate. This means that they have the arithmetical skills of the average nine year-old. Some 15% also are illiterate. This means that too often colleges of further education have to be the remedial department of their local primary and secondary schools. This is a shocking circumstance and FE has to pick up the pieces far too often. Too often also it diverts them from their primary task of equipping young people with the workplace skills which will enable them to found their careers.

This is not for one moment to denigrate the enormously important work which goes on in the teaching of basic skills in our further education colleges but merely to hope that the reforms which the Government are putting into place, and which my noble friend Lady Perry has described extraordinarily well, will in the end make it unnecessary for further education lecturers in further education colleges to teach what are basically kindergarten skills to 16 year-olds. We seriously need to improve upon that.

Schools have to play their part—and, as we have heard from my noble friend Lady Perry, some of them do not do very well at the moment—if we are to provide this country with the technically accomplished workforce which will enable it to outperform its competitors in a deep and difficult economic environment.

12:39

[Lord Bichard]

My Lords, I, too, wish to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, for instigating this debate, but in doing so perhaps I may also pay tribute to her huge commitment over many years to the cause of education. We are all grateful for that.

There is one thing on which we all agree: we want to see excellence in education. But, as ever, life becomes more difficult when we seek to define exactly what we mean by excellence. Does it mean that the graduates of our system are proficient in the core academic subjects? Does it mean that we have a credible, fair and reliable way of assessing their merits, and of course an outstanding teaching force as well? Does it mean that we enable every pupil to realise their particular talent and therefore to realise their life potential? Do we prepare young people for the world of work and to play a responsible part in their community as citizens and as parents? Does it mean that we are preparing young people for a lifetime of learning? Or, sometimes, does it just mean that we protect some of the most vulnerable young people in our society from harm, providing a place of safety in what for them is a very unsafe world? Rather inconveniently, perhaps, it means all of these things, so that if we fail in any of them, we really do not have an excellent education system at all.

Like many noble Lords, I believe that excellence in education is about all of these things, and I worry a little that at the moment we are in danger of being perceived as focusing too much on one element, that of the traditional core academic subjects. I want to draw upon two bodies of evidence to justify that concern. One is well researched and the other is a bit more anecdotal. The register of interests discloses that I am an adviser to a company called the Ten group on professional support services which provides online support to 20% of all schools in this country by answering questions which are posed by school leaders. In any week, Ten receives 150 or so questions from school leaders, so it is in a good position to know what schools are interested in and concerned about, and how their priorities are changing. What has been happening over the past few months? Ten has had far fewer requests about issues such as pupils’ health and well-being and child protection. It has seen a 68% decrease in requests for information about community cohesion, and a significant reduction in requests about extended services and activities to engage the local community. And—hear this—it has seen a huge increase in requests for information about inspection, such that they now account for 12% of all the requests made this year as compared with just 4% last year. For me, these are interesting and slightly worrying trends that suggest not only a narrowing definition of excellence and the purpose of education, but also an unhealthy preoccupation with external regulation.

My anecdote comes from having recently presented prizes at what is by any standards an outstanding school that specialises in the visual and creative arts. I am not going to name the school, but its work in those fields is as good as I have ever seen. By the way, last year it managed to get 12 pupils into Oxford and Cambridge and, as important for me, three pupils into Central Saint Martins College. My worry when I spoke to the staff and my worry when I ran a little seminar on design for senior students was that time and time again I was challenged about whether the Government are really behind the creative subjects, and time and time again I said, “They must be, because the creative industries are such an important part of our economy”.

We are in danger of people misunderstanding the signals, so we need to be careful to value all aspects of education in our public statements, and I would say especially the creative arts.

12:43

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, apart from congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, I should like to congratulate the Government on their safeguarding of design in the primary school curriculum and on their support for Sir John Sorrell’s Saturday schools to encourage design experience. Design is a sure but not widely understood means of developing general excellence in education because it fosters many key proficiencies, not only the traditional ones of literacy and numeracy, but the ones we particularly need now for the success of our economy—the capability to realise a plan, innovate, collaborate and recognise what the user wants. I also congratulate the Government on commissioning Darren Henley’s excellent reports on musical and cultural education, which drew attention to the mysterious capacity of skill in one creative activity to stimulate confidence and achievement in another.

As for secondary education, I understand the need for a focus on core subjects, but a narrow grouping will not fit our children for the modern world. As a matter of fact, it betrays one of our mainstream British traditions, which is that although Britain is no longer the workshop of the world for all sorts of reasons, and nor is there scope now for the classically educated colonial developers of the world, we have always been and could remain the designers of the world. I am thinking of our inventors from Richard Arkwright to John Logie Baird, Ada Lovelace and Sir Jonathan Ive, to name only a very few, and of our pioneering architects, such as Inigo Jones, who brought Palladio’s designs for homes back to England, thus transforming our domestic architecture. Indeed the Palladian tradition emigrated to Britain with Inigo Jones and later the architecture of the Scottish enlightenment, at least as much a triumph of architecture and design as it is of philosophy and literature. Design was an integral part of that classical tradition.

But we have tended to neglect design in our ideas of the grand English educational tradition, unlike some of our European neighbours. Like technology, it does not figure in Thomas Arnold of Rugby School’s curriculum, as the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, pointed out. Indeed, most of our inventors were outside the classically educated élite tradition, and came from the non-conformist strand of our culture or from Scotland. But design excellence is nevertheless a dimension of our distinctive variant of European history. We have still a reputation for producing the most innovative designers and the best institutions for teaching design, but this is now vulnerable to intensive investment abroad in courses and institutions. To nurture and preserve our adult attainment, we need to maintain a stream of school participation and the explicit valuing of design as a discipline.

In sum, we are selling ourselves short if we do not include design in formal classical education, and that is quite apart from its close connection with economic growth.

12:47

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry on bringing forward this hugely important debate. I like the idea put forward by my noble friend Lord Lloyd-Webber for an awards ceremony. I would actually go further and say that we should have an Olympics for business, including—most importantly—the creative industries that contribute so much to our economy.

I want to concentrate on the purpose of education. Excellence is of no merit without a purpose. That purpose must be to sufficiently prepare students for work, given that they are likely to seek numerous different jobs, possibly in different countries, during their working lives. In my experience as an employer as well as an employee both here and in the United States, I appreciate that standards matter. I recently had the opportunity to look at some student draft A-level papers, and I was appalled. An ability to articulate their points and to apply basic grammar and coherence to what they were trying to say was absent. Too few pupils from state schools are prepared for work, not through lack of will on the part of teachers, but the fallout from years of so-called “progressive” education lauded by the liberal left. The result has been anything but liberating for the students. Social mobility has fallen and aspiration among so many young has remained just an aspiration. The left, which views everything through the prism of politics, constantly attacks private education when it is clear that students from the private sector are invariably better prepared for university and better prepared for life. Why? In addition to teachers being free to make more demands upon the pupils in order to unleash their potential, there is one simple word: confidence. I speak from personal experience. Even though I received an okay academic education at a state school, my confidence to apply to university, let alone to Oxbridge, was wanting. This problem has not changed much in 40 years—which is a damning indictment of progressive education.

In an article in the periodical Standpoint, a teacher wrote recently:

“The saddest thing about working in a school like this is watching the deterioration of the 11-year-old pupils who arrive in year seven. Many, particularly those from good primary schools, are polite, well-behaved and hardworking when they start secondary school. All this will have changed by the end of the year, once they have had time to absorb the mores of their new environment. Five years down the line in year 11, many can’t even be relied upon to bring a pen to their GCSE examinations”.

Social mobility will not happen as long as too many young people cannot compete for university places without social engineering, and thereafter will not be picked for jobs anyway because they do not have the requisite skills and right attitude to compete with better prepared students. Telling them they have done well at school and higher education and awarding them degrees will not help if they cannot communicate effectively and present themselves with confidence among their peers. They will not get the jobs they have been led to believe they deserve.

In independent schools, pupils are in general at school for longer each day and spend more hours learning both curricular and extracurricular subjects. They are not free to roam the streets at lunchtime and are subject to real and consistent discipline, which gives them clear boundaries for what is acceptable in a civilised society. Good manners are not an option, and both they and their teachers are expected to care about their appearance. State schools should follow suit. Lack of resources is a poor excuse. Some private schools manage very well with less.

In meetings in the City of London, I am with young professionals who are smartly dressed, savvy and well mannered, and who speak confidently in two or three languages. Mostly they are not British; they are from other European countries, from the US and, increasingly, from India.

How do we tackle what I call the confidence and presentational skills deficit and help more children prepare for life in a very tough world? I am hugely encouraged by the Springboard Bursary Foundation, the objective of which is to add a powerful, ambitious and innovative approach to the provision of fully funded bursary places at independent and state boarding schools for disadvantaged children. The aim is to have a profound effect on social mobility and the ethos of the boarding sector. I know that some have an inbuilt prejudice against boarding schools—usually people who have never been to or visited one. Boarding schools have a hugely important role to perform in giving some pupils continuity, consistency and security in their pastoral care. This is vital if these vulnerable young people are going to gain the confidence to compete with their peer group as they grow up. The emphasis is—quite rightly—on academic and social aspiration.

In conclusion, I have one short message for the Secretary of State for Education—just keep going.

12:52

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, we all carry a degree of baggage to these debates on education. Whenever I get involved in one, I am aware that I have a great deal of knowledge, and strong opinions, about education, but not always about the same areas of education. I shall limit myself to aspects concerning what I call the hidden disabilities, and to the changes that are coming within the education system.

In a recent conversation, my noble friend Lady Walmsley told me that she was a little fed up with people being frightened by everything. Within the lobby of School Action and Action Plus, there is a process for identifying needs outside the statementing system. This seems to be disappearing. This is a process by which you get extra help to people who are not going to be put into that very specific legal category of a statement. They are very worried because they have not heard what will replace that form of assistance.

As they have not managed to extract an answer from civil servants before now, I hope that the Minister will give us at least the start of that discussion and tell us where we have got to. We are talking about people with dyslexia, autism, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions that are recognised disabilities. The Equality Act states that we must help them and that if we do not there are sanctions; there is a duty there. Will my noble friend identify the process that the Government are minded to bring in, or tell us whether they are still discussing the process? If he does, he will remove some of the fear factor and the panic that is going on, and probably provoke a more coherent answer. If the Government are not doing this, they will simply end up in the courts somewhere—and I do not think that anybody wants that.

Some government publications refer to enhancing the ability of teachers to secure good discipline. I encourage my noble friend to take a good, hard look at teacher training, both initial and in-service, to spot these hidden disabilities. I am appealing to the selfish gene of the teaching profession. As a dyslexic, you have two very basic survival strategies if you are not receiving the help that you need and are struggling in the classroom. Either you keep your head down, say nothing and hide in the middle of the classroom; or you disrupt the back. A teacher needs to identify that person and give them appropriate help. Often, the biggest thing you can do is to say: “You are dyslexic. Your learning pattern is different. You are not stupid or a write-off”. In doing that, you will solve part of the problem. The teacher will be able to teach and the people around the pupil will be able to learn. You are helping not just that one person at the back, but the people around them as well.

I also have examples concerning autism, which is more complicated. It was described to me as being a four-dimensional spectrum. There are different types of problems in the higher end. People may not be picked up by the health and education care plans. Whatever we think about special schools, most of these people, most of the time, will be in mainstream classrooms. There are just not enough special schools—and in many cases those with disabilities should not be there. We need to know something about how to integrate these people, and inform the rest of the class about them. I heard of a case—apparently this is quite common—of somebody who does not like being touched and who lashes out because it is painful to them when somebody touches them. Unless you have an idea about how to deal with these problems, you are always going to have trouble in the classroom. By giving this knowledge to teachers, you will enhance their ability to teach—and surely we are all agreed that that would be a great step forward.

12:57

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, there is too much to say and too little time to say it. We have had 25 wonderful years in UK education, ever since my noble friend Lord Baker became Secretary of State for Education. My noble friend Lord Harris illustrated what momentum we have now. The credit is shared equally between our party and the party opposite; both of us should be proud of what we have achieved. Of course, there have been some idiocies and setbacks in between, but we are human. However, there is still a lot to do and I will mention a few things to which we should pay attention.

The first is the continuous professional development of teachers and the spread of good practice. We have never managed to get that right. We now have an organisation called the Teacher Development Trust, which is immensely impressive. It sprang out of nowhere—a young Teach First in its own particular area. I really hope that we will support it. It is the best hope I have seen of getting this issue right.

Secondly, we must bear down on Ofqual. Allowing GCSEs to become norm references in the covert way that it did was destructive for all our young people and for the system as a whole. The examinations need immediate and radical reform.

Thirdly, we must deal with the myth of class sizes. About the only thing that is established from educational research is that class size, starting at the current level of around 30, makes no difference. Possibly the most inefficient way imaginable to spend money in the educational system is to use it to reduce class sizes. We should take advantage of this in dealing with the coming bulge in the number of primary-level children. We should let class sizes float up by a couple. It will make very little difference to educational achievement, and it will give schools a lot of money which they can spend on improving education. If we are going to have evidence-based education, that is the place to start.

Next, we should pick up the initiative that Peter Lampl is taking on, which is bringing independent schools back into the state system. The book written by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, chronicles how Labour Party policies gave great strength to the independent sector in the middle years of the previous century, and we are all aware of the great strides that he made in laying the foundations for that to be reversed. We now have a once in a generation chance to do something swift and radical, which will bring half the best independent schools back into the state sector—not on the terms that they are suggesting, but not on the terms that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, suggests either. We need compromise and a really radical and committed approach. It is surely the goal of all of us that we should get back to a much more balanced system. We can wait 100 years and hope that it will happen slowly, or we can do something now, when the conditions are right.

I hope that I will manage to persuade my noble friend to do something about the quality of the information that is available. People grouse about league tables. The problem is not league tables; it is that we have only league tables. There is much less information than there should be, and what we have is not of a good enough quality. If we want information on the all-round quality of schools, we need an annual inspector’s letter to tell it to us; it will never come out of figures. If we want accurate figures and to know what progress kids are making in schools, we need proper baseline assessments, not cobbled-together assessments based on very inadequate key stage 2 examinations. I really hope that the Government will make progress on that.

We must continue to encourage the foundation of new academies and free schools. They really offer opportunity. Last night I was at a presentation for a new free school. The enthusiastic parents were all from the black community. They are the ones who really know that they have been getting a raw deal from the state system. They are the ones who want long hours and real education, and there is no way of offering it to them if not through new schools.

13:02

[The Earl of Clancarty]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, for giving us the opportunity to participate in this important debate. Excellence in schools should mean excellence for all students, from kindergarten through to when the child leaves school and even beyond. It should not be about the excellence of a small group, but about recognising and developing each individual student’s potential, of stimulating their interest in the world and teaching them the benefits and joy of learning to learn.

We should be developing an educational system to fulfil that goal of good education for all children. However, this Government’s new education policy needs to be understood within the context of not only the recently announced changes or the budgetary cuts that are affecting resources and putting a strain on teaching, particularly outside the core subjects, but the austerity programme as a whole. For example, cuts to libraries and cuts to the arts mean a reduction in museum visits and outreach programmes and, not least, the level of hardship that many parents now face means that they often do not have the time to support at home their children’s education. It is disgraceful that the increasingly necessary breakfast clubs should be so reliant on the private company Kellogg’s, FareShare and other food charities.

With my interest in the arts, I am worried about their fragile position within secondary education. Huge concern has been expressed by the arts community over the arts not being a core subject within the proposed English baccalaureate certificate, as Darren Henley’s report, Cultural Education in England, recommended earlier this year. However, this is predictable for a system that is not designed to be inclusive in the first place. The EBC will favour those who are good at exams at the expense, once again, of everyone else. This is potentially a return to the bad old days of an educational system almost entirely geared to that one exam in each subject. The new system could be even worse because it does not allow for resits. I am worried about the proposed loss of the modular structure which suits many students, including children with dyslexia and others who are not good at exams, but allows for the in-depth pursuit of individual projects.

The Government are doing one good thing, stating that only one exam board should be responsible for a subject. But what is the thinking behind the new EBC? This brings us back to excellence but excellence in the very narrow sense. The EBC is designed surely to provide an exclusive pool of talent of perceived excellence required by future employers. Chris Keates of the NASUWT gets it right when she says that this new system is,

“entirely driven by political ideology rather than a genuine desire on the part of the Coalition Government to reform the examination system in the best interests of children and young people”.

We should not be educating our children for their future employers’ sake, but for their own sake. The two things are not identical.

I would like to see these proposals scrapped before their intended introduction in 2017, but if that is not to be the case, I hope very much that Labour will make a firm commitment to reverse these measures when they come to power and pledge to improve our secondary education system in a better direction.

13:05

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, it is an honour to take part in this debate. As it has gone on, I have felt less like taking part and more like taking notes, because the quality of the discussion has been so tremendous. We have had the privilege of hearing from former Secretaries of State for Education and former Chief Inspectors of Schools, and I applaud the marvellous way in which the debate was secured and introduced by my noble friend Lady Perry.

Where can I make a contribution here? I speak from personal experience of having been educated in what would today be categorised as a failing inner-city comprehensive, and I will focus on that aspect. We know that there is a great difference in performance and outcomes between the most materially poor parts of society and the most materially affluent parts. According to the Sutton Trust, 18% of free-school-meal pupils achieve five GCSEs, including English and maths, compared to 61% of those who do not qualify for free school meals.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education is fond of making the analogy that there are more pupils graduating with three straight As at A-level from Eton College than from a cohort of 80,000 free-school-meal pupils each year. These statistics tell us to focus on a core problem. Yes, we need to continue to push the boundaries of excellence at the top but we need to raise the bar at the bottom, and we have done. I share my noble friend Lord Lucas’s critique that we have gone through 25 years of progressively improving educational standards in this country. My noble friend Lord Baker deserves a great deal of credit for initiating that period of change. During that time, there have been huge changes in teacher training, the quality of teaching and the fabric of the school environment. Having been involved in setting up one of the flagship city technology colleges 20 years ago in Gateshead, I know what a difference having an excellent fabric makes.

We have focused on tackling the problem in many ways, but going back to my experience of a failing inner-city comprehensive, the dimension that we still wrestle with in inner cities to this day is the level of expectations. The one difference between the top public school and the inner-city comprehensive is still the level of expectations—not so much of the teachers, although that is a factor, but of the parents and the pupils—as to how they are going to achieve and excel in life. There is still a deeply grained mentality that academia is “not for the likes of us”, and if we are going to bring about lasting change in this country, that needs to be tackled head-on.

At my school, you would think that what we were in business for was to produce professional footballers, and we did phenomenally well at that. But if that same expectation was put into the maths classroom or the chemistry lab, we would deliver outstanding scientists, mathematicians and business leaders. I urge my noble friend to think about the role of great expectations in education.

13:10

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I found the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, a breath of fresh air. It brought some reality to our debate by identifying the problem of inequality of expectation in Britain. I am very sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, is no longer in her place, because, having listened to her, I thought that I should make a different speech from the one that I was proposing. She talked about the problem of the difference in confidence between public schools and private schools and the rest. Well, it is a zero-sum game: people with all the facilities and all the privilege will be more confident, and that is what their parents are buying. Let us face it, with the apartheid that exists in our educational system, people have an incentive if not to pull up the drawbridge then to want to get the greatest return on their investment in private education. That is perhaps not a very polite thing to say, but I challenge anybody to say what is wrong with that analysis.

Some years ago, as a member of the Franco-British Council, I was on a sub-committee dealing with forward planning of seminars, or colloques, as they were called. We were looking around the table for ideas and this French chap said, “I propose we have a colloque on the education of the elite”. The British representatives around the table nearly dived under it—“The education of the elite? How can you say such a thing?”. I was thinking about this. Did they react in that way because what they were talking about was not something that they recognised? Oh, no, it was not that; it was their embarrassment that anybody had said that that was what they were talking about—the education of the elite.

Here we are today in the House of Lords. A look at the figures shows that 79% of the Conservative Benches in the House of Lords went to public school. The figure for the Liberal Democrats is 54%, 34% for Labour and 76% of the Cross-Benchers—I am not saying that that is true of the people here today, but it is the overall statistic from the Sutton Trust. That makes us very unrepresentative of the British people, 7% of whom went to public schools. The noble Baroness who introduced the debate is therefore very representative of the House of Lords in having been to a public school, but that majority is not representative of the British people.

The noble Lord, Lord Baker, touched on how different we are from Germany in so many ways, and this is one of them. It is our caste system in Britain. When we think about what happens in India, we think, “Oh, that’s India. It’s quite exotic and totally different”, but, statistically, our position in Britain and that of the Brahmins are very similar, which is one of the reasons why our society is not as dynamic as some others. I agree that there are many modern societies which we would not want to give a second thought to; for example, China. I am not advocating anything like that, but I am advocating the system in some of the more modern European economies. It is not sufficient to say, as the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, has done, that we should look just to the excellence of our universities without looking at the excellence of our economy as a whole; for example, compared with Germany.

Finally, I point out the very interesting report published today. The Milburn report, commissioned by the Government, makes some very damning criticisms of the Government’s policy. Scrapping the EMA was a “very bad mistake”, it states. At a time when we are looking forward to the school leaving age going up to 17 next year and to 18 in 2015, what will be the position of those youngsters, particularly black youth? I really think that there is a bit too much self-congratulation in the analysis in this Chamber today.

13:15

[Baroness Wheatcroft]

My Lords, perhaps I could begin by saying that I am a proud product of the state system. I congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry on initiating this debate and covering so much ground in her opening speech. A lot has been said about the improvements being made to our education system. Increasing choice and raising standards are both crucial, and I applaud the remarkable progress being made.

However, I shall devote my remarks to the need to empower teachers. Children are all different. Nature and nurture ensure that, by the time the education system gets hold of them, they have varied talents and abilities and varied personalities. Some are confident and raring to go—that is in the inner cities as well as elsewhere—and some, and one would be too many, are already cowed into submission or consumed with anger by their circumstances. As their school careers progress, these traits can be exaggerated. Some children are pre-programmed to fail. Caring teachers can rescue them.

The best teachers are those who treat their charges as individuals and have the real desire to nurture them and to bring out what is best in them. That is why, whatever the demands of the curriculum, there has to be time, and place, for attention to be paid to the children as individuals. There are various blueprints for doing this. Secondary schools, where I think they have learnt in part from the public system, operate a house system which seems to work particularly well in assigning a degree of pastoral care to pupils. Thanks to the Lord Speaker’s Peers in Schools programme, I have been lucky enough to visit schools where children from very different backgrounds are thriving thanks to structures which build relationships between teachers and pupils that go far beyond exam marks.

A teacher attending to a child in the round can transform a life. He or she can detect problems that children suffer—we have heard about the difficulties, for instance, with autism and dyslexia. The right teacher can ascertain where a child’s real interests lie and encourage them to make the most of their talents. This is, of course, what parents do, but some parents are unwilling or just unable to do so. Teachers often truly are in loco parentis. We need to ensure that they are trained and encouraged to carry out that role to the full. My noble friend Lady Perry talked of the need for trust. Well, we have to trust our teachers to put a comforting arm around a sobbing child, to administer medicine to a poorly child and to demonstrate humanity. A few may abuse their position, which should never be tolerated—in the current climate, in the wake of the Savile affair and so on, opinions are obviously going to be influenced again—but we must not overreact and impose undue restrictions on our teachers.

When teachers try to impose order on disorderly pupils, they, too, deserve our support. Too often, we hear of teachers who have confronted the most appalling, violent behaviour in the classroom, and it is they who end up being disciplined. Too often, school governors are fearful of what the media and disruptive parents might say, but teachers need our support.

We should recognise the extraordinary contribution made by some teachers who throw themselves into extracurricular activities such as weekend sports matches and school plays and who build a school into a thriving community. Those who give so much of themselves should surely be rewarded, if not financially then when it comes to promotion.

13:19

[Lord Rees of Ludlow]

My Lords, my comments will be slanted towards science but I do not downplay equally well-grounded concerns about other subjects. Sadly, some citizens cannot tell a proton from a protein, but it is equally sad if they do not know their nation’s history, cannot write clearly, cannot speak a second language and cannot find North Korea or Syria on a map. But there is no gainsaying that an ever-growing fraction of jobs needs specific skills, at levels ranging from basic technical competence through to the level expected of professional scientists, medics and engineers.

The very young have a natural interest in science—whether focused on space, dinosaurs or tadpoles—and an affinity for computers that far surpasses that of their elders. The challenge is to sustain these interests through and beyond the primary school stage. I am impressed by the dedication and initiative of the best science teachers but the sad thing is that there are not enough to go round. More than two-thirds of primary schools do not have a single teacher with a science qualification. Many pupils are not exposed to a maths or physics graduate even in secondary school. Therefore, it is of little surprise that the natural enthusiasm of the young all too often gets stifled rather than stimulated.

We should aspire towards the situation in Finland, but that is a long-term goal. More immediately, it is important to reduce the fraction of young teachers who drop out; to expand and facilitate mid-career transfers into the profession from, for instance, industry, universities or the Armed Forces; and to enable experienced teachers of other subjects to mug up enough maths and physics to compensate for the special shortage of graduates in those key subjects. There is a huge educational upside from the well-guided use of computers and the web. That can amplify the reach of the best teachers.

Good teachers not only cover the curriculum but need to organise practicals and field trips, and offer bright pupils the kind of enrichment offered by participation in maths and physics olympiads. But realistically it will take years before all young people of high potential receive the academic nourishment and support that gives them a fair chance of access to high-quality university courses. During those years, a huge amount of potential talent will remain unfulfilled.

So how can we enhance opportunities with the present teaching force? I think that universities can do more. They can offer summer courses, encourage graduate students and post-doctoral researchers to spend time in schools and make their barriers to entry less rigid. We could have a flexible credit system, allowing transfers between institutions. Universities could reserve some fraction of their places for people who have not come directly from school but have intermitted, done a foundation degree, got further educational qualifications or suchlike.

There is a lot we can learn from US universities, quite apart from the educational breadth that the noble Lord, Lord Broers, mentioned. There is a trend to extol the Ivy League, but a more relevant model for Britain is the Californian state system. Its three-level structure of colleges embodies an enviable combination of excellence, outreach and flexibility—or did, at least, until the Californian budget crisis. A substantial fraction of those who attend the elite universities in the system, such as Berkeley, have come not directly from high school but via a lower-tier institution. To give a fair chance to those unlucky in their secondary-school years—the issue that Alan Milburn addressed—our tertiary education should evolve towards a more diverse and flexible ecology, with a blurring between higher and further education, and more involvement with schools.

13:24

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to take part in this debate. Like others, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry on her excellent speech. We have heard some splendid and very moving speeches. I refer particularly to the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and to the speeches of my noble friends Lord Harris and Lord Baker. In the brief time at my disposal, I should like just to talk of four things in four minutes that would develop excellence in education.

The first is the teaching of history, which has not yet been touched upon save briefly by the noble Lord, Lord Rees. I believe that every child leaving school in this country should, at the very least, have a chronological knowledge of the history of his or her own country without missing out great chunks. This does not happen at the moment and we should put that right.

Secondly, I was very moved by what my noble friend Lord Baker said when he quoted the psalm:

“Prosper thou the work of our hands”.

For some 25 years, I have run a scheme called the William Morris Craft Fellowship, which we give to marvellous young craftsmen and women to broaden their knowledge and give them a greater ability to manage heritage building projects. I very much liked what my noble friend Lord Lloyd-Webber said. I would like craftsmen and women to be more prominent in the public eye and the work that they do to be more appreciated so that, in our schools, young people feel challenged to take up the crafts and believe that, if they follow a craft career, they are not having second best but are in fact doing something that will contribute to future generations’ enjoyment.

Thirdly, I very much believe that we do not give our young people the opportunity to emerge into the world when they leave school as proper citizens. I would like citizenship education to play a real part in the curriculum and not just be a sort of reluctant add-on extra. At the moment, a group of us in this House are working towards getting a citizenship certificate that all young people would take. That would concentrate their thoughts on community participation and awaken their instincts—they all have them—of loyalty and responsibility. We would then have a generation of children coming out of our schools who felt that they belonged to a community and had obligations to that community. We really ought to face this one. A group of us had a meeting with Nick Hurd in the Cabinet Office just before the House rose in July but we are trying to further this. I hope that those Members of your Lordships’ House who did not know of this initiative and would like to take part in it will let me know.

Finally, I take up the points made by my noble friend Lady Perry when she talked about our universities, how excellent the very best of them are and how vital it is that we nurture them. I will say one thing about the visa situation. It is far better that someone who is not entitled to be here comes into this country than that we shut out a future Nobel Prize winner. We ought to take away visas from the general immigration statistics. I really hope that if nothing else comes out of this debate, my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford will promise to talk to those responsible in Government to try and bring some sense and balance to what at the moment is a chaotic and unsatisfactory situation.

My four minutes are up. This debate has illustrated the need for more general debates in this House. Now that we are not going to have the nonsense of debating its abolition, let us have more general debates when we can talk about the issues that really interest and concern our fellow citizens.

13:28

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Perry has rightly received many plaudits and I want of course to be connected with them. In my four minutes, I will make brief reference to the independent sector of education, with which I was closely associated for over six years as general secretary of the Independent Schools Council. My view is somewhat different from that of the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall.

As is well known, much excellence resides in our country’s independent schools. Sadly, the excellent education which so many of our independent schools provide is beyond the reach of most families in our land. Social mobility is a notable casualty of this tragic state of affairs. There are those who say that the state should help to equip families on modest incomes with the means to pay for places at independent schools. Admission, it is argued, should be decided by ability, not income. At the Independent Schools Council, I was involved in promoting an ambitious scheme to achieve open access. The cause has recently been taken up again by a large group of far-sighted independent heads committed to greater social mobility and supported by the excellent Sutton Trust, rightly praised by my noble friend Lord Lucas.

A Minister of Education said that he saw,

“no reason to use public money to subsidise the transfer of boys from one system to the other on a basis of selection in which nobody knows what would be just or why”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/6/1961; col. 898.).

The Minister in question was the Conservative Sir David, later Viscount, Eccles, speaking in 1961. No one so far has succeeded in finding criteria for a wider access scheme to the excellence of independent schools that is capable of commanding widespread public and political support. The most successful attempt, the Conservatives’ assisted places scheme, was always strongly opposed in some quarters. At its height, some 40,000 pupils benefited. It is greatly to the credit of independent schools that roughly the same number of children have free or subsidised places today as a result of the fee assistance that they provide through means-tested bursaries totalling more than £284 million.

Useful progress can be made through small-scale state-supported schemes, such as the provision of places in boarding schools for certain children in care who would be suited to them. There is growing support, as your Lordships’ House noted recently, for arrangements backed by charities and the Government that would increase the availability of such places significantly. However, as things stand today, the reality is that if independent schools are to spread the excellence for which so many of them are so well known, they will need to put themselves into a closer relationship than ever before with maintained schools, as my noble friend Lord Lucas made clear with his customary passion.

The steady growth of the academies programme and the introduction of free schools under this Government provide hugely important new opportunities for independent schools. Progress in exploiting them has not been as rapid as some might have wished. Thirty-three independent schools are now sponsoring or co-sponsoring academies. According to the ISC, another 18 sponsorships are under negotiation and a further 85 are possible in the next few years. Many parents throughout our country will hope that the pace of change can be quickened. The results of change can be impressive. Within a year of Wellington College sponsoring Wellington Academy, the percentage of pupils gaining five A* to C grades at GCSE rose from 43% to 98%. As the Master of Wellington College, my friend Dr Anthony Seldon, said:

“Academies work, and the partnership with an independent school provides extensive opportunities for both schools to learn way beyond the academic”.

There has been much reference recently to the famous Tory phrase “One Nation”, first used not by Disraeli but by Stanley Baldwin, a great social reformer, in 1924. Everyone in our country recognises that we are still far from making a reality of Baldwin’s vision in our education system, but surely there is no other basis for the lasting success of all our schools.

13:33

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton]

My Lords, I think I must restrain myself and not follow directly some of the comments that have just been made. I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and agreeing with what she said about the quality of teachers and how crucial it is that we continue to try to improve it. It is also important that we do all that we can to respect teachers and the whole of the teaching profession. I wonder where all this discussion about giving teachers more freedom sits with the Secretary of State’s apparent desire to prescribe the history curriculum in every detail. Perhaps we should remember what the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said about the need for a division of labour.

I am not sure that I am quite as optimistic as the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, about the new examination system. I am not against a baccalaureate, but we are going to have a British bacc, a technical bacc, an A-bacc, new vocational qualifications, and I wonder whether we will have a totally cohesive and comprehensive system.

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, when he says that we should look at young people from the age of 14 to 18, or maybe 19. I appreciate his work on technical opportunities, and in particular the need for parity of esteem for those types of qualifications. We need a holistic approach to qualifications and opportunities for young people between the ages of 14 and 18 or 19. I believe that we can achieve that only by a credit accumulation system, which would include modular elements, as has been suggested. That is the only way to get real parity between academic and vocational achievements. It would also allow for acknowledgement of the work in arts, music and sport that others have mentioned.

I am surprised that there has not been more mention of the need to concentrate a great deal of resources on early years education. If we are talking about long-term excellence, we must concentrate a great deal of attention there. I am also surprised that mention has not been made of the Open University, which is a world leader and something which this country should be proud of and to which our other universities should look to in the support that it gives students, its course material, openness and approachability. Others could learn from that.

In a very limited debate, there is a lot that everyone wants to say, so I will confine my other remarks to one aspect: a word that has been mentioned many times today—aspiration. Much of what is said about how we want to raise and realise the aspirations of children, young people and adults no one would question, and I fully support that objective. However, if we are really going to provide opportunity for all, we must find better strategies to deal with those who are non-aspirational: the families, parents and children who feel incapable, threatened, insecure or alienated from education. That is a real problem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, talked about the influence of her mother. All teachers know that if you have motivated parents, it is much easier for the child to succeed. Unfortunately, some parents do not have a good experience of education. There are many reasons for that. We know that levels of illiteracy and innumeracy are far too high. Some are very fearful of any formal environment, some find their responsibilities overwhelming, and some do not want themselves or their children to be taken out of their comfort zone to an alien world of education that they find threatening. Sometimes, unfortunately, teachers accept that and do not have expectations for some children from families with difficulties.

The Government’s approach—some of the cuts that are being introduced hitting early years and the support for those families, and doing things such as not ring-fencing the pupil premium—will make the situation worse. We have the very real challenge of making opportunities a reality for those children and helping them to break through to make the progress that they could.

13:38

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, on initiating this debate and on her excellent speech. In her wide-ranging speech, she referred to the importance of vocational education, as have other noble Lords, and that is what I want to concentrate on in the first part of my speech this afternoon.

I am very pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, talked about parity of esteem, because it is a phrase that seems to have disappeared over the past few years. I accept that everyone says that we must have an excellent vocational system, but I am very concerned that some measures in place at the moment make parity of esteem difficult or, worse, might unwittingly encourage actions that meet performance table measures but militate against excellence. For example, the new Ofsted framework no longer includes a grade for the quality of post-16 education. Some reports might include just a one-line descriptor of what is happening in a school’s sixth form. Parents look at Ofsted reports, and if a school is deemed to be outstanding at the pre-sixth form level, that is wonderful, but parents need guidance when they are trying to compare what is on offer in their local area. They need a comprehensive report.

More worryingly, Ofsted judges colleges by a different yardstick to schools: their success rates—that is, the number of students who start and subsequently achieve a qualification. However, they rarely comment on that for schools and academy sixth forms. There is also inequality in judgments across post-16 providers because there is no common methodology for assessing student outcomes. Given that the White Paper, The Importance of Teaching, said in 2010 that the Government would introduce clear comparison measures between providers of 16-18 education, can the Minister please update the House on the progress of this important aim?

I want to address briefly the announcement earlier this week about what has been called revisions to A-levels. I prefer to see it as the broadening of the academic qualification at 18. I was, for 10 years, a governor at Impington Village College, a comprehensive community college in Cambridgeshire, which was one of the first state schools to introduce the international baccalaureate. Indeed, two of my children did the IB.

I have long regretted the narrowness of the A-level curriculum and endorse the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Broers, that we need a much broader system. The strength of the IB is that if you are a scientist you must continue with English language and at least one humanities subject, while if you are a humanities student you must continue with maths and science right the way through. It provides an excellent pre-university qualification, part of which, to pick up comments from other noble Lords, includes a module on students’ own community service. Many people do not know that the international baccalaureate programme offers education from early years right the way through to 18, and at different levels. It is not just a top-strand academic qualification. I hope that in the revisions which the Secretary of State announced earlier this week, we really will look at broadening sixth-form or 16-18 entitlement, whether academic or vocational.

I want to pick up on a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about class sizes not mattering. At Impington Village College some years ago, we took the view that we would alter class sizes. Some students really needed very small classes to be able to progress. They were often those who came from backgrounds without educational support. The more able students who had parental support did just as well in much larger classes. The point is that the schools have to be able to have that flexibility.

Finally, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber, that there are already a number of craft awards. There are not just the William Morris fellowships that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, mentioned. John Hayes announced earlier this year the new national craft skills awards, while the Royal Television Society has craft and design awards. The UK’s skills show in November is going to showcase the best of this country’s craft and technician students. It would be lovely to have more celebrities supporting them. If that means a glitzy ceremony in London bringing them all together, I am all for it.

13:43

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, you must be weary. I shall make only one short but important point. I want to draw attention to an area of education in which I believe there is a serious and lamentable lack of excellence in our education system today. Ofsted tells us that in most of our secondary schools personal, social, health and economic education is being badly taught or not taught at all. Ofsted reports tell us that PSHE teaching in most secondary schools is very much a Cinderella subject. It is mostly taught, if taught at all, by teachers with no specialist qualification in the subject, given little or no curriculum time and edged out by examination subjects. In contrast, Ofsted tells us that PSHE in primary schools is, on the whole, well or at least satisfactorily taught.

Most young people of secondary school age are keen to understand more about the responsibility and challenges they are going to encounter in adult life, not least the challenges of parenthood. These issues need to be explored interactively but under guidance as part of every secondary school’s PSHE education programme and as part of the adolescent’s preparation for life. Ministers justify the status quo by quoting an Ofsted figure for all schools. That figure shows that in 74% of all schools, Ofsted considers that PSHE teaching is “satisfactory” or better than satisfactory. Does that figure contradict that report saying that it is bad in secondary schools? I am no statistician, but it seems that if you add together the large number of satisfactory primary schools with the much smaller number of secondary schools, which are unsatisfactory, you are bound to get a confusing and misleading answer. The Ofsted reports on secondary schools make the picture absolutely clear; most secondary schools are failing their pupils in this area.

In my view, it is irresponsible not to prepare adolescents adequately for the challenges and opportunities of adult life in a way that is excellent. It is irresponsible to leave them to rely mainly on soap operas for the knowledge they need and irresponsible of us not to encourage and support them in exploring what the future holds for them. Will the Government please look seriously at the possibility of setting up or sponsoring, at one of the major teacher training establishments, a pilot project to establish and develop specialist teaching skills in this area?

13:46

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Perry for introducing this debate on what is an absolutely vital subject for our country. Our education starts on the day we are born and continues in one form or another until the day we die, but our more formal education starts when we learn to read—and the quicker and better this is done, the better chance we have throughout our education and our life. I want to speak about one issue that, at no extra cost, could transform our education system and the lives of thousands of children. I refer to teaching by the “cat sat on the mat” method, a phrase I plan to use throughout my remarks. The term of phonics for this method of teaching may be understood by many; conversely, it will not be understood by many. We should have a method that is understood by everyone. Keeping it simple and, in a way, repetitive is at the very heart of what I want to say.

“The cat sat on the mat” is not the only way to teach children to read but it is undoubtedly the best. All our children deserve nothing but the best and it naturally follows that the best should be the only way to give every child the best possible start. I understand the Government’s reluctance to give direct instruction from the centre to individual schools but the size of the problem surrounding learning to read demands that something be done immediately. A start has, I know, been made: Nick Gibb, who was until recently Schools Minister, did an excellent job and he believes firmly in “the cat sat on the mat”. Yet that start is not dynamic enough and time is not on our side.

There is rightly much talk and concern about child poverty, family break-ups, free school meals, equal opportunity and so on. There are no reasons why every single child should not be taught to read the best way and given the same start as everyone else. Over 20 years ago, when I was a Member of Parliament, two ladies came to my constituency surgery. They ran a private school specialising in remedial teaching at the primary stage. They came to beg me to persuade my local authority to use, as they did, only “the cat sat on the mat” in all schools. They brought tapes and booklets of their method and told me that, using that method, they were able to take children from a reading age of five to a reading age of to nine in two terms. Most importantly, they told me—this is hard to believe—that the local authority sent children to them to be brought up to speed by their method but would not use it in its own schools. Needless to say, I had a meeting with the chief education officer, and I am afraid that I got the muddled response that I have been hearing ever since, and which I hope will not be the Minister’s response today since it has led to our present problems.

The doubters say that there is more than one way to teach reading. That is true, but all use less effective methods. They say that circumstances may vary from child to child and school to school. This is true too, but the best method is the best, regardless of circumstances. They say that we must leave it to individual heads and teachers to decide. Why, when it is clearly not delivering the best chances for all our pupils? “The cat sat on the mat” may be rather more demanding of teachers, but the joy when the child takes off and enters the world of books is incredibly satisfying for teachers and pupils alike.

A wise man once said that all great issues are essentially very simple but we make them complicated when we do not want to face them. This is simple, costs nothing and would change the lives of thousands of children at once. I urge the Minister to do all he possibly can to persuade every primary school in the country to use the “cat sat on the mat” method as a matter of the greatest possible urgency.

13:50

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, on securing a debate on this very important topic which has such crucial relevance not only for the well-being of children but for so many aspects of our social and economic life. We have had an excellent debate, and I hope colleagues will accept in advance my apologies for not being able to do full justice in the limited time I have to the many knowledgeable contributions that we have heard today demonstrating the tremendous expertise across the House and the commitment to ensuring excellence for our children.

It has been said that much has been achieved in raising standards over the past 15 years, but how we achieve excellence for all children depends on our definition of excellence in education as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, reminded us. Exam results are crucial, but indicate only how well or otherwise a cohort of children has done. They do not tell us how far each child has achieved excellence or reached his or her potential, and that is primarily what we should strive for in excellence: the outcome for each child and whether it is the best that could have been achieved. Here I have great sympathy with the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty.

It is important that we look at the Government’s record on this in the round. As we have emphasised around the House today, one of the key factors in achieving good outcomes for children is the quality of teaching, and therefore I applaud the Government’s decision to build on the measures introduced by my Government to achieve the best cadre of teachers ever. Raising the quality of new entrants, expanding the Teach First programme and focusing on continued professional development, which was rightly emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, are welcome measures that will continue to have a positive effect on student attainment.

However, in respect of other government changes, the jury is out on whether they will improve outcomes for all children. Cutting all schools loose as academies and free schools, supposedly accountable directly to the Secretary of State, with no local accountability to parents or communities, will not necessarily raise standards for all. Indeed, I can see no evidence for the article of faith that is the Government’s mantra; namely, that we only have to set all schools and head teachers free in order to raise standards. If that were the case, we would have had a world-class education system decades ago when schools were left pretty much to their own devices. Instead, we had a two-tier system with excellence for a few, the rest written off as second class and a long tail of underachievement, the legacy of which is still with us today. The Government have not produced any evidence to support their changes, so we will have to wait and see whether the focus on the EBacc without an equally strong commitment to vocational and technical education—which was called for by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and my noble friend Lady Taylor—moving from modular GCSEs to linear courses of study, raising the thresholds on grades and returning to an outdated history curriculum will improve outcomes for all children.

However, there is one thread running through the Government’s measures that causes me concern; namely, that they are wholly focused on schools and what goes on in the classroom. Yet we know that the factors influencing attainment go beyond and start well before school. So far, we have not seen any priority given to effective measures to address the barriers to learning for disadvantaged children or giving all children the good start before school that is essential to their future development. Indeed, other government policies have seriously diminished the prospects of excellence for many of these children and young people, and I want to consider briefly two significant groups of children and how they stand now in relation to the totality of government actions.

The first group is disadvantaged children. The Government, and Nick Clegg in particular, have made much of the pupil premium as the measure which ensures additional help for disadvantaged pupils, including those with a disability or from black or minority ethic communities, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and my noble friend Lady Howells reminded us. Sir Michael Wilshaw, chief inspector, found that over half of schools said the pupil premium was having little or no impact on these pupils. Few schools could say how they were spending the money and, as my noble friend Lady Morris said, were not spending it on proven interventions for individual children. Leaving aside the fact that the pupil premium was not new money in the first place, the failure of most schools to use the fund to accelerate the progress of disadvantaged children must be of concern. Will the Minister say what action the Government are taking to ensure that all schools spend the money in the way intended and show demonstrable progress for these young people?

Not only is the pupil premium not working to the benefit of disadvantaged pupils but these same pupils have been adversely affected by other government actions: the abolition of the education maintenance allowance, which was referred to by my noble friend Lord Lea, the downgrading of school sport, art, music and creative subjects, including design, which was raised by my noble friend Lady Whitaker, and cuts in school support for deaf and other disabled children. Scope has reported this week that two-thirds of families with a disabled child are no longer getting the local services they need. There are cuts to breakfast clubs and after-school activities and teachers are reporting more and more children arriving at school hungry. The poor PHSE in secondary school, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, will differentially affect children at risk of social and economic disadvantage. When will the Government’s review of PHSE finally be published?

International research established a long time ago that disadvantaged children in particular need the opportunity to develop non-cognitive skills through a wide range of enriching activities in order to be able to make the best of their educational opportunities. Indeed, this should not be a surprise because the best independent schools—have always had extensive programmes of extra curriculum activities to support their pupils’ learning and to raise the high aspirations that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, rightly identified as important. Opportunities for disadvantaged pupils in state schools to have their needs addressed and to participate in enrichment activities outside the classroom are being severely diminished under this Government, and this will have a significant impact on their educational attainment.

The second group of children are pre-school youngsters. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Taylor for raising this. Again, research here and abroad has long established the importance of a rich and stimulating experience for the pre-school child who needs to be cared for by parents or carers who understand the importance of supportive social interaction between adult and child as the vehicle for language and speech and social and emotional development. The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, mentioned the cat sat on the mat. I do not know about that, but I am rediscovering Doctor Seuss and The Cat in the Hat at the moment with my grandchildren, and I very much agree with what the noble Lord had to say.

This actually was the basis of Sure Start, set up under the previous Government, which was a drive to improve the quality of all early—years settings and to introduce support programmes for those parents who needed help to understand what their children needed. We know that it is in these early years of life—well before the child goes to school—that the brain undergoes one of its most critical periods of development.

New scientific research reported only this week followed a large cohort of children for some two decades. It found that pre-school cognitive stimulation significantly predicts the actual amount of grey matter in the cortex of the brain at age 17; and therefore determines the very capacity to learn and think. So early years experiences actually shape for better or worse the neurological development of the child. Yet the Government have seriously undermined the opportunity for young children and their parents to get the support they need for that best start for every child. In 2012, the Government cut the funding for Sure Start, rolled it into a single early intervention grant, with no ring-fence for the early years. That was bad enough and has already significantly reduced provision for the youngest children and their parents. Now we discover that the early intervention grant is being abolished, with the bulk being top-sliced to pay for the nursery places for two year-olds, when we were led to believe that this would be funded with additional money.

A much reduced sum for early years is now simply going into the revenue support grant for every local authority; it is not ring-fenced, so early years provision will have to compete with all the other spending demands a council might have. I just wonder what this says about the Government’s real commitment to the youngest children and this crucial stage of development. It is quite clear that, without measures to enrich pre-school experiences, and therefore support the neurological development of many of our youngest children, their later potential to excel in school will be permanently impaired.

This debate has been about the measures necessary to achieve excellence in education; we have heard much about school structure, exam arrangements and what should be essential subjects. These are all important, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, had some interesting proposals on this, including his support for citizenship education, in which I am very interested. However, changing the architecture of the system will not produce excellence for all children unless there are also measures to remove the barriers to learning for disadvantaged children in school and to enhance the development of children before they get to school. On these measures, I am afraid, the Government are getting worse and not better.

14:02

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady Perry for giving us this opportunity for what has been a fascinating, wide-ranging and quick-fire debate—and it has been none the worse for that. I have more time than other noble Lords but I will try to rattle through to address as many of the points that have been raised as I can. Few know more about excellence than my noble friend—who is a former Chief Inspector of Schools, the vice-chancellor of a university and the head of a Cambridge college—so I think it is fair to say that her words carry particular weight.

Today there has been broad agreement that we want excellent education for all and not just a minority; that when we talk about excellence, we should mean excellence in vocational and technical education and not just academic; and that when we talk about education, we must never just mean exams, but everything that goes on in schools. That includes music, as my noble friend Lady Benjamin rightly argued; drama, art, sport; and the building of character and preparation for later life, as the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, reminded us. In that context, I loved the description given by the right reverend Prelate of the Resurrection Primary School up in Manchester, which seems to be exactly the kind of example of a broad range of education that good schools will provide for their children.

I do not agree that there has been a narrowing of definition about excellence, an issue which I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, is concerned about. I can see the point that lies behind his concern—that in wanting to re-emphasise the importance of academic subjects, it might sometimes give the impression that that is what the Government are concerned about to the exclusion of all else. That is not the case, and I will do everything I can to reassure him and others that when we talk about the importance of education, it is not solely about academic education but all kinds of education in the broadest sense.

We know that there are many schools in the country that are delivering an education that we would all recognise as excellent. What is more, many of these are achieving excellence in areas of great disadvantage. Their pupils are going to our top universities. As my noble friend Lord Bates rightly argued, these are the beacons which show us what is possible with brilliant teaching, strong leadership and high aspiration—“great expectations” is a good phrase to stick in our minds. I believe that the answer to the question about university entrance lies in the schools, as my noble friend Lord Harris has demonstrated. I think he said that 90% of the children at one of his schools got an offer from a university this year.

Despite these beacons we also know—and we have to be honest about this—that too many children are far from enjoying an excellent standard of education. It is still the case that a third of pupils are leaving primary school not secure in reading, writing and mathematics. Some 250,000 children do not achieve five A* to C grades at GCSE, including English and maths. We know that the UK has fallen back in the PISA rankings and yet this relative decline has happened at a time when performance at GCSE has risen year on year. If nothing else, this tells us there is something wrong with our exam system that we need to examine.

We also know, as noble Lords have mentioned, that poor children do disproportionately worse. Just over one-third of children on free school meals got five A* to C GCSE grades, including English and maths. Only 4% of children on free school meals achieved the English baccalaureate in 2011, compared to 17% for non free-school-meal pupils. Only 22% of pupils with SEN achieved five A* to C GCSE grades, including English and maths, in 2011. My noble friend Lord Addington was right to remind us of this group. So far as identification of SEN is concerned, a new code of practice is due to be published in 2014. Officials are working with interested parties on that, but I am happy to clarify that further and if he would like, I will set up a meeting for him with my officials.

We also know, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, reminded us, that across the country, black pupils in particular are not doing as well as they ought to be. Again, we heard from my noble friend Lord Harris that in many of his schools—which have a high concentration of black pupils who are, of course, well taught, motivated and supported from home—they are able to go on to achieve exactly as well as one would imagine that they would.

We know as well that, despite these problems, across the country brilliant things are being achieved by outstanding heads and inspiring teaching. There are more than 40 primaries across the country which have completely eliminated any attainment gap between rich and poor. At secondary level, schools like the Harris Academy in Bermondsey show us what can be done as well. There, 68% of pupils receive free school meals. Of those, 62% got their five A* to C GSCEs, including English and maths, against that national average of just over one-third.

We know as well that these results are not just some kind of one-off. Between 2010 and 2011, the results for ARK academies increased by 11% on average. Oasis—another chain—went up by 9.5%; ULT by 7.5%; and Harris by 13%. We have all heard many times in this House about the Mossbourne Academy. Last year, 82% of its pupils achieved 5 A* to C GCSEs; 10 of its pupils, I am glad to say, went off and received places at Cambridge University.

Across the board, performance in sponsored academies has improved at twice the rate of maintained schools, and the longer that academies are open, the better on average they do. So we know what can be achieved. The question which has properly been posed today is: what can Government do so that excellence can be spread more widely? I just want to touch on five main themes of the Government’s approach. They are: extending autonomy, improving accountability, tackling underperformance, restoring rigour to qualifications and, most importantly—because I accept fully that structural change cannot achieve anything without good people, as the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, reminded us—raising the quality of heads and the teaching profession more generally.

In introducing the academies programme, the last Government rightly recognised that greater autonomy helps to raise educational performance. We have taken that principle and developed it, trying to extend the space in which professionals can make their own decisions—what my noble friend Lady Perry rightly called “extending trust”.

I agree strongly with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, about resisting pressure to stick more things in the national curriculum because we do not dare quite trust the professionals. I also agree with what my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft said about the importance of trusting professionals to care for children in the round and, particularly, the importance of policies to make it easier for teachers to address issues to do with behaviour.

The response from governing bodies and heads to the opportunity to become academies has been overwhelming. There are nearly 2,400 open academies in England. More than 55% of all secondary schools in England are either open as academies or this is in the pipeline. The vast majority of those have chosen to do this, which shows the appetite within the system and the profession for greater independence. I think that that partly addresses the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford. More and more of those academies are joining together to help raise performance in other schools. They are forming clusters to share good practice to support each other. There are more than 300 different chains and the fastest-growing group of new academy sponsors working to raise standards are outstanding schools which have converted to academies.

Alongside academies we have free schools, including independent schools coming into the maintained sector, UTCs and studio schools. Some people said that no one would want to take up the challenge of opening new schools. I think that they underestimated the passion of teachers and local groups to help children. One of my favourite examples is Cuckoo Hall in Enfield where, this year, 94% of pupils achieved level 4 in English and Maths. Its outstanding head turned around a failing school a few years ago. In the past two years she has opened two new primary free schools in the same area, where there is a big pressure on basic need, and she is now planning to open a secondary school.

As has already been argued, greater autonomy has to go hand in hand with greater accountability. Part of the way in which we have been doing that is through publishing more data so that parents and others can see for themselves how schools are doing. I am happy to talk to my noble friend Lord Lucas about his ideas. My noble friend Lady Brinton talked about the importance of comparable information between different kinds of institution. I agree with her about that. If we are trying to get to a situation where parents and students are able to make choices, they need to be able to do so on the basis of comparable data. We are committed to developing the destination measures, which I think she mentioned, and I would be happy to get someone to update her precisely on where we have got to on that. It has also partly been about more data, as well as through revising our inspection arrangements. The new performance tables had four times as much data as in the past and last year. Importantly, they showed not just attainment but the progress of pupils in different prior attainment groups.

Ofsted’s new framework will also help us to raise the bar. It not only focuses on the four core elements of a successful school; it puts all schools that are currently no better than satisfactory on notice that they need to work hard to improve. Schools that do not show that improvement will be subject to more frequent inspections and potentially moved into special measures.

We have also been looking at the whole question of governance, which is an area that merits more study. We have been trying to make governors’ lives easier to free them up to concentrate on key strategic decisions because the governing body of a school has a vital role in terms of accountability. We are making it easier for them to recruit governors on the basis of skills. We also introduced a new scheme for national leaders of governance modelled on the very successful national leaders of education, which we hope to double next year.

There has been some discussion already about changes to the curriculum and qualifications. I believe that if employers are not confident in the value of qualifications or they complain about standards of literacy and numeracy, and if we have universities which question the depth of knowledge that our brightest children have compared with students coming to British universities from overseas, we cannot pretend that all is well.

Something that worried us early on was the sharp fall in the number of children taking modern foreign languages, history or geography at GCSE. The percentage taking modern foreign languages had fallen from 76% to 43% between 2002 and 2010. The number taking history fell from 32% to 31% and those taking geography fell to 26%. That was the background to our announcement that we would introduce the new performance measure, the EBacc, which would show the percentage of pupils getting GCSEs in English, maths, two sciences, history or geography and a modern foreign language. We chose those subjects because we think that they best equip young people to apply to the good universities.

So far, it seems to have had an effect. Compared to the 22% who took EBacc subjects in 2011, we estimate that 46% will be studying them in 2013 and 49% by 2014. That, interestingly, would take us back to a striking figure because in 1997, about 50% of pupils were studying what we now classify as the EBacc subjects.

I very much agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, about the importance of subjects and activities other than the EBacc. That is one of the reasons why, by restricting them to a core, we hope to leave space for other subjects—including important areas such as design, for example, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker.

We are consulting on the introduction of a new qualification to replace GCSEs in each of the core academic subjects that make up the English baccalaureate. We will end the competition between different exam boards which has led to a race to the bottom, a move which has been generally welcomed. We will be holding a competition to identify the most ambitious qualifications, benchmarked to the world’s best and offered by a single awarding organisation.

On the specific issue about RE raised by the right reverend Prelate and also by my noble friend Lady Perry, I understand the point. I am glad to say that the numbers taking RE at GCSE increased by 7.7% this year, after increasing by 10% last year. Although I know that there are practical concerns, there has not been a falling off of young people wanting to study RE. Indeed, the opposite is true.

We also want to make sure that A-levels are rigorous and challenging, compare to the best qualifications in the world and command the respect of our leading universities. We want universities to have a greater role in their design and development. Ofqual has consulted on changes to A-levels and is considering next steps. No decisions have yet been taken but I noted the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Broers. I also agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, said about the importance of coherence when we look at qualifications and exam systems.

Alison Wolf’s review of vocational education found that between a quarter and a third of 16 to 19 year-olds were on courses which led children into dead-ends. I know that her recommendations for raising the quality of vocational qualifications were broadly welcomed across the House at the time. I was grateful for the comments made by my noble friend Lord Lingfield about the importance of further education.

We have seen a rapid growth in the size of the apprenticeship programme, which has grown from 240,000 to 450,000, but we must work to improve the quality of those apprenticeships, which we will do through a review into standards led by employers. We are delivering high-quality technical education through the new university technical colleges, of which my noble friend Lord Baker spoke with his customary passion. Two years ago there was one UTC open. By 2014, we expect to have more than 30. I have the figure of 90 ringing in my ears, as well as my noble friend’s almost daily exhortation to go further faster.

I was interested in the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Lloyd-Webber about how we can dramatise the importance of practical and technical skills better. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Brinton for telling the House how many ways of doing that are under way. However, that is an issue that a number of noble Lords probably would like to discuss between themselves further.

Alongside UTCs, studio schools have also been developing at pace. Two years ago, there were just two and today there are 16. By next September, I hope that we will double that again. These schools bridge the worlds of work and school, providing a vocational alternative alongside good academic qualifications and offering high-quality work experience which is paid for after the age of 16.

I have to say to my noble friend Lady Buscombe that these schools are full of confident, well presented children who are keen to get on. I support the work of the charity Springboard, which she and my noble friend Lord Lexden mentioned. I applaud the work he referred to as regards trying to bring about closer co-operation between the independent and maintained sectors.

The pupil premium has an important role to play in tackling underperformance. As regards how that is working so far, the recent study by Ofsted was a snapshot. We will get the full report next year. From this September schools will have to publish how they are spending that money. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, that it is important to demonstrate the value of the pupil premium. However, in approaching that, it is also important that we do not clog up the system too much with reintroducing a new layer of prescription. We want schools to work out how best to spend it but also to share good practice widely.

My noble friend Lady Walmsley, among others, talked about the importance of the early years. I will reflect on the points that she made. In tackling underperformance, we have accelerated the focus that we have placed on underperformance in primary schools, building on the work of the previous Government on secondary schools. As regards the quality of the profession, our goal is a self-supporting and self-improving system where schools learn from outstanding schools and heads and where outstanding teachers spread good practice. I agree with what my noble friend Lord Lucas said about the importance of this. That is why we are creating a national network of teaching schools to improve the capacity for schools to take the lead in the training and development of teachers, building up to 500 of those by 2014-15.

We are increasing the numbers of national leaders of education to 1,000 by 2015. We are supporting Teach First, a brilliant innovation which came about under the previous Government, to expand to 1,500 trainees in 2014-15. We are expanding the Future Leaders and Teaching Leaders programmes to develop many more potential leaders of the future. We are raising the bar on entry to the profession. We are paying bursaries of up to £20,000 to attract the best graduates into the teaching profession, especially into the important shortage subjects such as physics and other science subjects which were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow. I was also interested to hear the remarks he made about the role that universities can play in helping to address some of these issues.

All of us who visit schools know that it is inspiring heads and teachers with high expectations for their children who aim for and achieve excellence. We are seeking to support them by increasing their professional freedom, improving accountability, refocusing inspection, reforming qualifications and encouraging more great people—

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I appreciate that he has to get through his prepared speech, but I should point to his absence of reference to the fact that Alan Milburn has recommended that the Government reverse their policy on the abolition of the education maintenance allowance. Alan Milburn stated that that creates a difficulty in terms of,

“helping poorer 16- to 17-year-olds stay on at school”.

What about that group?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I hope that I addressed the main point raised by Mr Milburn. The route to getting more children from disadvantaged backgrounds into university is through schools. I think a number of people have accepted that the cost of the EMA—the best part of £560 million—was not sustainable. It was going to 40% of children but was originally intended to be targeted on a smaller group. The replacement that we have put in place is sufficient to pay a comparable sum to all the children who are in receipt of free school meals.

In conclusion, I know that there is a long way to go. I hope there is no complacency or what one noble Lord referred to as a self-congratulatory tone, but I believe that excellent schools are showing us the way forward, and I believe that the building blocks for further progress are in place.

14:23

[Baroness Perry of Southwark]

My Lords, it is customary on these occasions to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate but I have far more reasons than custom in saying a very heartfelt thank you to all noble Lords who have taken part today. This has been a really fascinating debate and inspiring and moving in many cases. It vividly demonstrates the huge range of expert knowledge that we have in this House. We have ranged from early years to universities via almost every aspect of education through many different kinds of schools. There have been pleas for science, the arts and history, all of which were made with real knowledge and experience as well as deep passion. It has been a huge privilege to listen to all the speeches today. I hope that my noble friend Lord Lloyd-Webber will carry on with his excellent and exciting proposal to give real recognition to those who are not very academically successful but are hugely successful in their crafts and technician roles.

Motion agreed.

Antarctica: Centenary of Scott Expedition

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

14:25

Moved By

[Baroness Hooper]

That this House takes note of the centenary of the Scott expedition to Antarctica and of the United Kingdom’s enduring scientific legacy and ongoing presence there.

[Baroness Hooper]

My Lords, the inspiration for this debate came from a visit to the Natural History Museum earlier this year. I went in the company of many of your Lordships to view the special exhibition commemorating the 100th anniversary of Scott’s Terra Nova expedition to the South Pole. The Natural History Museum must be congratulated on the excellence of its exhibition and on the insight it gave us and doubtless the countless others who have since visited it into the conditions experienced by the members of the expedition down to the nutritious Huntley and Palmer biscuits.

It was just such a visit to New Zealand’s International Antarctic Trust Centre in Christchurch some years ago that made me determined to visit Antarctica myself. I have had the privilege of sailing through the Weddell Sea, seeing up close the icebergs in all their variety and observing rockhoppers, Magellanic and chinstrap penguins and their nesting habits. On that occasion I also visited the Argentine and Chilean research centres and learnt about the international co-operation and, indeed, competition that goes on.

This centenary year has boosted interest in Antarctica and reminded us of the exploits of the expedition through a variety of special exhibitions and events up and down the country, newspaper articles and some excellent radio and TV programmes and by the memorable commemorative service at St Paul’s Cathedral in March. In the recent past, awareness of our heritage in Antarctica has also been raised by the successful campaign to save the Scott and Shackleton huts. In mentioning that name, I cannot but regret that the late Lord Shackleton is not here with us today to add his knowledge and enthusiasm to the debate. The focus of the International Polar Year 2007-08 and the Scott 100 Plymouth conference last year, not to mention the ongoing activities of the British Antarctic Survey and other specialised organisations, about which more anon, has all served to draw attention to the unique continent of Antarctica and to our presence and role there.

Others have been inspired to follow the example of Scott and his party and to push themselves to the limits of human endurance by venturing to find new ways of reaching the pole, I have in mind in particular Felicity Aston, who spent 56 days crossing Antarctica on skis and returned recently to tell the tale at the Royal Geographical Society. I think and hope that we will hear other examples of that sort of courage in the course of this debate.

Every schoolchild of my generation was brought up on great heroes of the past, and the valiant attempt by Scott and his team to be the first to reach the South Pole gave an outstanding example of human endurance and courage. We can only be glad that he wrote so much down in his diaries, leaving a lasting message for posterity. In these days of instant communication, it is for us almost impossible to comprehend how cut off the expedition was and must have felt. I find it amazing to consider, for example, that the deaths of Scott and his companions actually occurred before the “Titanic” sank but of course were not known about until well after.

Another fact I had not appreciated before is that after Amundsen and Scott reached the South Pole in 1912, no one made the attempt again for nearly 50 years. When they did, they returned not with ships, sledges and dogs but with airplanes and radio communication.

It has been said that the burden of the scientific side jeopardised the chances of reaching the pole first, but it appears that Scott treated scientific discovery and reaching the pole as more or less equal priorities. It was very much in the spirit of his times to show that man could conquer virtually everything. The lasting scientific achievements of that race to the South Pole include the foundations of the study of glaciology and the theory of continental drift.

Amazingly and in spite of the conditions, but again in line with the practice of the time of collecting and identifying specimens, Scott’s expedition left examples of some 2,109 animals and fish, 401 of which had never been seen before. It also produced a huge number of rock samples, plant fossils and the famous emperor penguin eggs. The fact that three of the team spent five weeks trekking to Cape Crozier to witness the emperor penguins incubating their eggs in sub-zero temperatures—minus 75 degrees Fahrenheit—is proof of their scientific zeal. It has to be remembered that this took place only some 50 years after Darwin’s theory on the evolution of species had been published. At the time it was thought that the eggs might prove to be the missing evolutionary link between dinosaurs and birds. That was proved not to be so, but at least those men could claim to be the first and only men to witness that marvel of the natural world.

Nowadays we see these scenes on our television screens accompanied by the reassuring tones of David Attenborough, and it is hard to imagine what it must have been like to journey into the unknown with no means of communication. There are of course parallels now with the exploration of space in terms of journeys into the unknown, but it is the total cut-off from communication with the rest of the world that underlines the sheer bravery and fortitude of these men 100 years ago. Scott’s scientific legacy is ongoing, and in this centenary year we have still to see the international Scott centenary expedition, which is due to retrace Scott’s steps and includes some of the descendants of the original shore party but that will also carry out cutting-edge experiments of its own. I understand that the British Services Antarctic Expedition has also been in the peninsula since January, carrying out scientific and exploration work. Thanks to the BBC’s life scientific program, I am aware that Martin Siegert is even now fulfilling a long-term project to research lichen in a sub-glacial lake under three kilometres of ice, this being part of the British Antarctic Survey programme.

This brings me to the very topical subject of our ongoing presence in Antarctica and the institutions that support it. It has been said that the Scott Polar Research Institute, which was founded in 1920 and which houses the greatest polar library in the world, is the expedition’s greatest scientific legacy. It was certainly set up as a memorial to Captain Scott and his four companions who died. I understand that it was originally financed by surplus donations to the fund for the expedition’s widows and orphans, and is now in part funded by the Natural Environment Research Council.

However, it is the British Antarctic Survey that is the UK’s national Antarctic operator. For the past 60 years it has been responsible for most of the UK’s scientific research in Antarctica, and indeed in the Arctic, and it has gained national and international respect and recognition for its work. The British Antarctic Survey is based in Cambridge. It operates five research stations, two royal research ships and five aircraft. It is world renowned for its extensive research programmes and provides a vital focus for international co-operation and co-ordination. It was BAS that first raised global concern over the depletion of the ozone layer, and indeed many Members of your Lordships’ House, like me, will have appreciated our regular visits to its Cambridge headquarters for briefings from experts in their fields.

It was therefore a shock when in June this year the research council announced that it was considering a merger between the British Antarctic Survey and the National Oceanography Centre in Southampton. There appeared to be grounds to believe that this would mean a closure of the Cambridge headquarters and the concentration of the merged body in Southampton. As a consequence, the director and deputy director have resigned, fur has been flying, press comment abounds and even former Vice-President Al Gore has waded in to attack the plan. A consultation document was issued in September, the consultation closed on 10 October and its findings are due to be reported in December, so that will be a matter of great interest.

Can the Minister give us any reassurance about the future of the British Antarctic Survey? Are the fears that this is the first step in winding down research at the poles justified? What significance is there for the Falkland Islands and other British territories in the South Atlantic if there is a reduced British presence in Antarctica? When are the Government going to introduce, or rather reintroduce, an Antarctic scientific strategy, given that the current five-year rolling programme has lapsed?

As a non-scientist but a very interested observer, I look forward to the contributions to come from all those who are to speak. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have put their names down, many of whom are much more expert than I am. I also look forward to the Minister’s reply. In celebrating the courage and determination of Captain Robert Falcon Scott and his team, I hope that in the few hours of this debate we can help to ensure that their legacy is safeguarded and that the bounds of knowledge will continue to expand. I beg to move.

14:37

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on securing this most timely and important debate.

Much has changed in the 100 years since Scott and Shackleton’s epic journey to the South Pole. In 1912 the polar regions were an unknown wilderness, a hostile environment that thwarted man’s efforts to conquer it. We now know much more about these unique features of our planet and have a much greater understanding of their importance and how human activities are impacting them, largely thanks to the work of the British Antarctic Survey.

The year 2012 may be remembered not just as the centenary of Scott’s epic achievement but as the year in which the polar sea ice melted at such an alarming rate that the scientists studying it began using phrases like “shocking”, “staggering” and “scary”. Predictions about the rate at which the warming of our world would lead to losses of Arctic ice have been proven woefully optimistic; the pace of change is far faster than models predicted and the impacts of climate change are happening far sooner than we had thought.

In that context, the work of scientists at the British Antarctic Survey should be being praised, encouraged and supported. It is they who have been monitoring the west Antarctic ice sheet, which is suspected to be dangerously unstable and which over time could ultimately lead to a rise in sea levels of more than three metres if it collapsed. Instead, I find it absolutely astounding that BAS should have recently lost its director and now be facing a poorly thought-through merger for which no clear business case appears to have been provided.

I have been investigating the background to these proposals and have been told that NERC’s initial proposal was to inflict swingeing cuts on BAS, but the ring-fenced funding arrangement put in place by the Foreign Office effectively stopped this, on the basis that BAS provides an important strategic presence in the South Atlantic. This so infuriated NERC that it in effect sacked the then director and came up with another plan to cut BAS down to size by merging it with the National Oceanography Centre. I wonder why NERC is pursuing a campaign against BAS. What has it done to deserve the threat of dissolution? BAS’s history of world-leading science does us proud, and it has produced many important findings of global significance, not least the discovery of the ozone hole by BAS scientist Joe Farman.

The consultation on the proposals closed last week, but many experts will have been loath to comment, given that NERC essentially holds the purse strings for many of them. To step out of line and criticise could mean funding being withheld. As if to add insult to injury, the documents setting out the vision for the proposed merged organisation illustrate a marked departure from the principles currently embodied by BAS. Instead of focusing on the pursuit of pure science, the emphasis is to be on the national interest, the UK economy and the derisking of investment in the polar regions.

At times, I have the sense that I have stepped through the looking glass into the surreal world of Alice in Wonderland precisely when science is telling us that the burning of fossil fuels is having a far faster and more dramatic effect on our global ecosystem than we could have predicted, and that our scientific institutions are being co-opted to assist in the extraction of ever more fossil fuels. The burning of fossil fuels unabated should now be viewed as a reckless, immoral act. Our generation’s challenge is to rid ourselves of this dangerous addiction and to leave the reserves in the ground, if necessary, not to support the discovery of more. Faced with a raging inferno, we should not be asking our firefighters to help pile on more wood.

What a squalid period of history we are living through if pure scientific endeavour is not deemed in and of itself worth while and where scientific institutions must be harnessed to further commercial interests. The people behind this vision statement ought to be embarrassed. NERC must be urged to reconsider, and I hope that the Government would, if necessary, intervene to restore confidence in BAS and its scientists.

With each passing year, it becomes clear that human society is on a collision course with nature, and there will be huge repercussions. Explorers such as Scott and his men embody the human drive to increase our understanding and extend our dominion. However, there are some forces too powerful for us to conquer and control. During this debate, I ask that we reflect not just on Scott’s bravery and the UK’s undisputed scientific achievements but on human frailty, for that is an important part of this story. Continuing on the collision course with nature that we are now on imperils the lives of millions of people alive today and billions of people yet to be born. If our polar regions do not survive, neither will society as we know it. In this centenary year, we must protect and enhance our scientific capacities in the polar regions, and this means retaining BAS as a centre of excellence.

Perhaps I may humbly suggest that if reforms are needed, let us start with a review of NERC itself, because in this instance it appears to be acting as an extremely poor and short-sighted guardian of our world-leading scientific institutions.

14:42

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on securing this debate. Inevitably much of it will focus on NERC’s proposals for the future of BAS, so I will confine my remarks accordingly. In so doing, I must declare an interest as a council member for NERC, so I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for her warm comments.

The proposals to bring together BAS and NOC is exactly that—a proposal. It is not a done deal, and I wish to assure the House that the proposal and the responses to the consultation will be scrutinised by an independent academic before any firm proposal comes to the council in December.

Let me try to explain NERC’s thinking. First, let me make clear what is not being proposed. There is no proposal to close the BAS centre in Cambridge or the oceanographic centres in Southampton or Liverpool, or to close the bases at Rothera, Halley or Signy in Antarctica, or Bird Island or King Edward Point on South Georgia. Nor is there any attempt by the FCO or indeed NERC to abandon the region to the Argentineans, although we understand the sensitivities. Nor is there any proposal to reduce the size or capability of the fleet or aircraft. Nor is there any attempt to reduce the overall expenditure in Antarctic science during the current CSR, despite the 3% reduction in NERC’s budget; BAS has received a £42 million flat cash settlement for the whole period. Nor is there any attempt to reduce the number of scientists or current scientific programmes. Nor is there any attempt to reduce access to Antarctica for our universities, which, by the way, contribute well over 50% of the current polar research portfolio. It is important to put that on the record before we begin the debate.

So what challenges is NERC trying to wrestle with? Let me highlight two. First, NERC, like the other research councils, with the exception of the Medical Research Council, is having to make savings—in our case, around 3%. Our budget was reduced in real terms for Antarctica by about £9 million, and we estimate that by 2015 the cost of our major infrastructure will have increased by about £7 million. Put simply, running ships and aircraft, essential for delivering polar science, is an extremely costly business.

As a result, there is growing pressure on the amount of science that we can do. That leads to the inescapable logic that without a new major source of income—and no one is suggesting that there is—we will do less and less science as our infrastructure costs continue to increase. In effect, the status quo means NERC reducing world-class science elsewhere in its portfolio to maintain an open-ended, ever-increasing subsidy to BAS. Is that what your Lordships support?

We believe that there are logistical and administrative savings to be had by bringing the infrastructure of two similar organisations together. However, for NERC, simply looking for greater organisational symmetry would not justify a merger. There has to be a compelling argument that the merger will enhance opportunities for world-class environmental science.

So let me come to the second reason. Over the past three decades, NERC has pursued its strategic marine and polar science missions separately with BAS and NOC, and both have retained distinct scientific and geographic loci. Conversely, our scientific understanding has, over the same period, brought into sharp focus that the earth is a closely coupled system. In particular, the coupling between the oceans and the cryosphere is tight in the polar regions, which are the source of the deep water that forms one leg of the thermohaline circulation that in turn effects the global climate. This greater understanding of the ocean and its role in climate change is revealing problems of great scale and complexity. For example, the role of the Antarctic circumpolar current in supplying warm water to the Antarctic ice sheet base, with its consequent melting of the ice sheet into the ocean, is of massive concern to scientists. Likewise, as the Arctic sea ice melts, the altered circulation and redistribution of heat and fresh water in the Arctic Ocean, and its exchanges with the north Atlantic, is a massive cause for concern for us in the United Kingdom.

These are but two challenges that directly link polar and ocean science. It is self-evident that NERC as a world leader in environment research should seek to combine its marine and polar strategic science to maintain a world-class capability when dealing with problems of this size and scale. That is what the proposal is about. It is not about wrecking things but about building things for the future. If noble Lords disagree with NERC’s proposals, one should at least respond to these two significant challenges on the cost and the science, and provide some compelling evidence that the status quo offers a better way of resolving both.

14:48

[Baroness Andrews]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for introducing a debate that is as important to our scientific future as it is to our heritage. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Willis, will forgive me if I do not follow him specifically on the question of NERC. I shall come to that at the end of my speech.

I am speaking not with my English Heritage hat on, for once, but out of a personal conviction for the importance of polar heritage and polar science. I want to talk about a specific aspect. The extraordinary history of British Antarctic exploration—and it was British until 1914—involves the great race to the South Pole. The imagery of Scott’s fatal expedition of 1910-12 continues to haunt our imagination. Of all the images we have of that expedition, so well captured in the exhibition in the Natural History Museum, none are more evocative or poignant than the pictures of the interior of the prefabricated expedition hut—to which Scott and his companions did not return.

In 2002, under the leadership of the New Zealand Antarctic Heritage Trust, the Ross Sea Heritage Restoration Project was begun, to care for the four surviving huts in the region and their artefacts. I recently spoke to Dr Nigel Watson of the trust about the progress that has been made on conserving the huts, which has lessons for science and conservation around the world.

Working with heritage specialists from around the world, including our own UK Antarctic Heritage Trust, a four-year programme of work on Ernest Skackleton’s only Antarctic base has been completed with more than 6,000 objects conserved, and a five-year programme to save Captain Scott’s last expedition building is completed. A programme of conservation of the collection continues with more than 7,000 objects from the site conserved—everything from Tate sugar cubes to tomato ketchup, books, newspapers and scientific instruments.

This is the science of conservation under extraordinary conditions. Last winter, for example, the Bowers Annex, made up of provision boxes, was excavated from underneath an estimated 100 cubic metres of ice and snow. Sixty-five metres of ice has been removed from beneath the main floor. The internal space of the original bulkhead has been revealed and a more historically accurate layout clearly shows the division between the officers, the scientists and the men. Even in cramped conditions on the other side of the world, British naval social structures were maintained. Therefore, we have social as well as scientific history on show, and Captain Oates’s bunk has been restored. In a recent blog, one conservator wrote:

“Stepping into the hut is always a powerful moment: it is quite dark inside at this time of year … A prescient silence also fills the hut, and there is a great sense of stillness”.

Others have spoken of a tangible feeling of sadness.

Why does all this matter? These huts are not tourist opportunities. They are not even for Antarctic tourists. We do it because these fragile buildings are not just a lasting witness to the human spirit; they represent enduring values of courage and the restless search for knowledge and the universality of science.

Thanks to the efforts of the New Zealand Government in providing and raising funding, 80% of the £8 million needed has been found, much of it from British sources, but another £1.5 million is needed. English Heritage has no power, unlike some of our counterparts overseas, to invest in the conservation of monuments which lie outside our physical boundaries; nor, I understand, does the Heritage Lottery Fund. The World Monuments Fund has, however, provided welcome support. The Norwegian Government have recently pledged funding for the Norwegian hut at Cape Adare, as have the Australian Government for Mawson’s huts at Cape Denison commemorating the Australian expedition of 1911-13. There is therefore an international commitment to a scientific legacy which belongs to everyone—to a continent of knowledge which, uniquely, is governed by international treaty in the interests of the whole world and whose heritage belongs to the whole world.

A few years ago, my intrepid predecessor at English Heritage, Sir Neil Cossons, persuaded the then Government, following a visit to the huts, to provide a very modest £250,000 to support the conservation of the British huts. I am now asking this Minister to persuade her colleagues in the Treasury to do what other countries have done to care for their scientific heritage and to provide a small contribution, in this year of all years, as a lasting memorial to complete the conservation of the huts. This is the year to do it and I am sure that noble Lords will support me in that.

The scientific legacy of polar exploration, so well described by my noble friend Lady Worthington and the noble Lord, Lord Willis, cannot be overestimated. It could not be more salient. I am sure that the Minister will listen very hard to the case that is being made for Antarctic and polar research not to be compromised. The Antarctic is literally the frontier of knowledge. It is there that we will learn most and earliest about the fate of the climate and of the globe. The BAS is at the forefront of that research and its work must not be put at risk. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will listen very hard and give some reassurances about the implications of doing so.

I conclude by again thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for the comprehensive way in which she introduced the debate and for the opportunity that we have had to recognise, celebrate and think ahead about what we expect from the scientific research.

14:53

[Lord Oxburgh]

My Lords, I, too, express my gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for providing this opportunity to reflect on the profound changes that are mooted for British Antarctic science.

I should declare my interests. For five years I chaired the international review panel for British Antarctic Survey research and on two occasions visited the BAS base on the Antarctic Peninsula. I have also worked at sea with the National Institute of Oceanography, a predecessor of the present National Oceanographic Centre, with which the Natural Environment Research Council proposes to merge BAS. I also worked for five years in the MoD and was briefly the director of the Scott Polar Research Institute.

NERC has indicated that during the present spending period the merged BAS footprint will not be reduced. But what does that mean? If NOC and BAS were merged, it would be almost impossible to determine what had happened to the BAS budget.

First, I shall say a word about polar science. Our poles are very different: the North Pole lies in an ocean surrounded by continents; the South Pole lies in a continent surrounded by oceans. In the Arctic, for the international community, it is largely a matter of ocean-going ships, because the surrounding nations jealously protect their shelf seas. In the Antarctic, BAS studies both continent and surrounding oceans together.

Doing that work safely in a very hostile environment is one of the unique BAS skills that supports both its own research and that of British universities—research ranging from studies of the ionosphere to “life on the edge”; studies of how organisms, fish, birds, plants and other animals cope with the extreme Antarctic climate; and studies of the behaviour of continental ice sheets, as well as understanding past climates by drilling deep ice-cores. Working in the Antarctic is much more expensive than elsewhere. However, as with particle physics or space exploration, if the observations cannot be made any other way, we have to pay what it costs.

Not only is BAS science diverse but it is good. Looking back at some of the reports of my review committee, the international members were astonished by the interdisciplinary collaboration that BAS achieved and the distinction of much of its output. A 2007 Indian survey showed BAS to be the most productive institution in the world for Antarctic science.

On the diplomatic front, at meetings of the Consultative Parties to the Antarctic Treaty, more working papers have been prepared by the UK—that is, the FCO and BAS together—than any other country. Under successive directors, BAS has achieved an enviable international reputation.

I think that I have a reasonable understanding of the work of both NOC and BAS, and I see little scope for savings or synergies beyond their current close collaboration in the southern oceans—a conclusion, incidentally, confirmed by a number of reviews, most recently in 2012.

Finally, we should remember the dire consequences of a seemingly trivial decision to reduce our South Atlantic naval presence some years ago. In the shadows between UK diplomacy and local South American politics, where every trivial action is minutely scrutinised, analysed and reanalysed, are we in danger yet again of inadvertently sending the wrong signals? The UK’s presence in the Antarctic, the Falklands and South Georgia is supported by a strong science-backed position at negotiations surrounding the Antarctic Treaty. Maintaining a footprint—whatever that means—without a clear and demonstrable commitment to Antarctic science is simply not credible. Are we seeing a decision again made at the wrong level by officials who do not see the whole picture—a decision not only threatening the science but endangering our position in the South Atlantic?

The question is: what now? The apparently engineered loss of senior staff at BAS has weakened the organisation, severely damaged morale and made it vulnerable. It is hard to see how the proposed merger will either protect the science or send the right diplomatic signals. Antarctic science is expensive but, by comparison with the cost of maintaining a garrison in the Falklands, let alone the cost of mounting even a small military operation, the cost of the science is almost imperceptible.

National interests, both diplomatic and scientific, appear to be at risk. I suggest that Ministers from the FCO, BIS and the MoD urgently set up an independent working group to propose a way forward before Christmas. I hope that Ministers will listen.

15:00

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lady Hooper for giving us the opportunity to discuss not only the centenary, to which she gave great tribute, but, as she put it, an emotionally enduring scientific legacy and ongoing presence of the UK in Antarctica. It is not surprising that so far almost the whole debate has turned on the proposed merger of BAS with the NOC.

As noble Lords well know, I am no scientist and will not be able to compete with those who have spoken from a very close scientific background, but in this context my attention is drawn to a compelling response to the consultation by Sir Martin Holdgate, opposing the proposal. I mention this because Sir Martin was the chief scientist at the Department for the Environment when I was Secretary of State. I quickly realised that he was a man of enormous ability, integrity and experience, and it was he who had to advise me as to our response to the BAS identification of the thinning of the ozone layer. There have been many other distinguished achievements, not least the discovery of 800,000 years of environmental history through the use of ice cores. That is perhaps one of the most significant advances in the study of climate and climate change. It is not surprising that Eric Wolff was rewarded for that by membership as a Fellow of the Royal Society.

I am in no doubt, as others have said, that BAS has a very long and well deserved international reputation for science at the highest professional level. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, said. I listened to my noble friend Lord Willis with great interest. I have great respect for him but one has to weigh what he said against not only Sir Martin Holdgate but a number of other very reputable commentators who have opposed this measure. Sir Martin’s strong objections rest on three fundamental reasons. He argues first that the suggested synergies between polar science and marine science are far less than the differences between them. My noble friend made some emphasis on the synergy but the differences are much greater. Secondly, Sir Martin identified what he calls the quasi-political nature of NERC’s arguments and, more importantly, the questions that the consultation leaves unanswered. He asked,

“how the proposed merger will serve the world community better than the maintenance of two separate, efficient and highly regarded institutes”.

Thirdly, Sir Martin was very concerned that neither the scientific nor the economic case is evident from the consultation document. In particular, it does not contain any figures to suggest what saving the synergy is likely to produce. He describes it as a “piece of breath-taking deviousness”. Sir Martin Holdgate is not a man given to exaggerated worries without cause. Those responsible need to pay particular attention to that.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, is my noble friend Lord Willis right to say that this is not yet a done deal? In that context can we be assured that not only NERC but Ministers will pay very close attention to the several authoritative objections to the proposals put forward by NERC? It is hugely important that this is not just a decision for the research council. Secondly, what is the reaction of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to this? My noble friend is perhaps better able to answer that question given her present position. The presence of the BAS and other bodies in the South Atlantic has been recognised as clear and compelling evidence of the British concern with the whole of the South Atlantic. Any suggestion that this will be watered down or in some way diluted will send the appallingly wrong message to those who are anxious for our departure. This is almost the most important decisions of all and it should not be taken by a research council; it should be a decision firmly taken by Ministers who are accountable to Parliament.

15:05

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, I welcome this debate and declare my interest as a former member of a BAS advisory committee and a collaborator on scientific projects when I have been at the NERC-supported Centre for Polar Observation and Modelling at University College London.

Scott’s Terra Nova expedition leads us to extraordinary stories of bravery and selflessness, especially on the return trek, and has inspired generations. It also led to Shackleton’s expedition a year or so later. Remarkable literature has come out of those expeditions and extraordinary photography. Recently, Arctic research has also led to interesting music. When I was a governor of a primary school in Cambridge, one of the prospective candidates for head said that for 20 minutes every day he would read to the students from Scott. We thought that that was a bit over the top so he did not get the job, but we understand the sort of extraordinary affection there is for Scott’s writing.

I note that Amundsen has not been mentioned recently. He reached the Pole just in front of Scott. The Norwegian Prime Minister was there recently, but I do not believe that our Prime Minister has been there. Amundsen generously admitted that the Scott expedition contributed much more to science—notably geology and biology. One of the biologists, Dr Wilson, was on the last party. Meteorology was also mentioned. A former director of the Met Office, G C Simpson, was there studying air currents and introducing new instrumentation for solar radiation. The lasting contribution of the expedition was to show the importance scientifically of polar regions. The UK has taken a lead in this through research institutes and universities, BAS, NOC and, not to be forgotten, SAMS in Scotland. Their work is co-ordinated and funded by NERC. Also, extraordinary international co-operation is co-ordinated through the Antarctic Treaty and its scientific committee, SCAR, on which the directors of BAS have often sat.

Recognition of the impact on global science and technology of observations in the Antarctic come with four or five great developments. First, what impressed me in the 1960s was the work of Rachel Carson in her famous book Silent Spring and the fact that DDT was found in the seals and birds of the Antarctic, showing an extraordinary circulation around the world. Secondly, the observation of the polar regions from the moon in the 1960s was an extraordinary sight. We had our blue planet with white caps on either side. Thirdly, the importance of Antarctic weather began to be recognised in the 1970s and 1980s. Good measures of Antarctic weather from weather stations all around the Antarctic enabled us to make global weather predictions. BAS contributes to that, as do other countries such as Argentina and Australia.

Fourthly, in the 1980s the upper air currents swirling around the Antarctic were understood, so it was not a great surprise, at least to a fluid dynamicist, when Joe Farmer at BAS found that extraordinary cauldron of swirling flow, enabling chemistry to take place there, isolated from the rest of the world. The chemicals in this cauldron were chlorofluoride carbons from refrigerators and the reactions led to the damaging loss of ozone in the stratosphere. Subsequently that was verified by the US satellite measurements. The fifth global impact was the role of polar science using computational modelling to enable us to use the results of the ice cores and radar satellite measurements to look at climates and geology going back in time, and also to make predictions about the dangerous phenomena mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, in her report.

Looking forward, we should be thinking not only about research but of educational projects in and around the Antarctic. I am privileged to be involved in a project to reconstruct the wooden vessel of the “Beagle” based in Chile, which will enable students and university people to go round those southern waters. Indeed, the surveying of those waters off Cape Horn by FitzRoy are still used.

I have three quick points. The UK should establish a polar science centre for both the Arctic and the Antarctic which should be separate from but collaborative with NOC, as other noble Lords have mentioned. The international role of the NERC with regard to United Nations agencies and the UK Government, which is touched on in the report, needs to be reorganised. It should not, as suggested in the report, continue to be the responsibility only of the scientists and the centres. The NERC, of which I used to be a member, does not review the science advice given nationally and internationally by the NERC—or, at least, it used not to and I understand from recent directors of NERC that that has not been the case. My third point concerns the Antarctic Treaty and SCAR, which needs to extend its roles significantly to become responsible for public understanding and education about the Antarctic through international collaboration. That will be a long-term way of ensuring that the value of the Antarctic continues.

15:10

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, I join with the congratulations that have been expressed for my noble friend Lady Hooper on securing this timely debate. It allows us to debate NERC’s plan to sabotage the British Antarctic Survey.

The objective of the merger with NOC is to save money in the longer term by reducing the scientific resources devoted to polar science and oceanography. About 18 BAS posts will go during the CSR period, depending on the salaries of the staff who leave, and this will already impair their ability to achieve their scientific objectives. Beyond that, the expected costs and savings arising from the merger are not identified in the consultation, as has been said, but are due to be revealed to the council in December. Can my noble friend say how many staff are actually in post now in BAS and NOC respectively; how many there will be at the end of the CSR period; and how many on completion of the merger? Without this information, the Select Committee on Science and Technology, which intends to assess the merits of the proposal, will be unable to do so.

Of course, NERC is in some difficulty because of the Treasury’s demands on it. Cutting the resources devoted to the environment is not the act of the greenest Government ever when there are other ways of balancing the books, such as taxes on the rich. Vandalising the nation’s research base should be ruled out altogether in the Government’s search for ways of reducing the deficit.

Will the Government pay attention to the advice against the merger, not only by Martin Holdgate, who was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, but also by Jonathan Shanklin, one of the BAS scientists who discovered the hole in the ozone layer, who says it would create a comparable hole in British science? The RSPB, with its million members, deplores the threat of commercial development in the polar regions contrary to the Antarctic Treaty 1991 and the mission statement of the NOC.

With climate change already threatening the survival of millions we should be careful not to do anything that would impair the capacity of science to examine its causes. Recently, an enormous basin has been discovered below the west Antarctic ice sheet, the characteristics of which suggest that the risks of the whole sheet collapsing are greater than was previously thought. In the worst case scenario, the global sea level would rise by several metres, overwhelming the Thames flood barrier as well as many coastal regions. To design a new barrier it would essential to have reliable estimates of the rise in sea level over the following century. If we can no longer afford scientific work of the quality now being done by BAS scientists, how will Governments be able to make decisions that require the spending of tens of billions of pounds?

NERC wants the management of the marine infrastructure and logistics for polar and marine research to be undertaken by its Swindon office. Three ship reviews and one on marine engineering over the past 12 years have shown that merging these operations would generate no savings because the polar ships and their operations are fundamentally different from those of the blue water ships. As has been mentioned, the last review by a respected member of the NERC executive board was completed in the spring and gave detailed reasons against the merger. However, if, contrary to all expert advice, NERC insists on a merger of marine operations, then Cambridge should be the single location because, on its own analysis, the shore side management and engineering support in BAS is more effective than NOC’s, as demonstrated by the relative staffing numbers and the level of satisfaction recorded by scientists using the ships of the two organisations.

As mentioned by my noble friend Lord Willis, in 2011 NERC tried to close down the Signy research station, which is an excellent example of multinational co-operation, and also tried to scrap the polar ship “Ernest Shackleton”. The Government decided that that decision was wrong. They called it in and vetoed it then, and they should do the same for this merger now. If they cannot do that, they should at least tell NERC to do the arithmetic on BAS management of the marine infrastructure and publish it, together with the rest of the missing information, in time for it to be considered by the Select Committee.

15:15

[Lord Giddens]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on initiating this debate, which, in the light of what has been said, could have a real practical impact.

Scott is an iconic figure in British history. Like many such figures, he had feet of clay to some degree; his reputation waxed and then it waned; and now, in the light of a new definitive biography, it has waxed rightly again in recent years. All kinds of bric-à-brac about him and his colleagues on his final expedition have come to the surface recently. I like the story that has come to light of the depraved sexual activity of penguins, recorded by the medical officer, George Levick. It proved too outrageous to publish in its day. Far more racy than Fifty Shades of Grey, it was like fifty shades of black and white, and mostly black. It is not surprising that it was not published at the time. It was, however, strictly scientific and part of the scientific remit of the expedition.

I have spent the past several years studying climate change in an intensive way. On our maps, the Arctic and the Antarctic appear as the outer peripheries of the globe. In an era of accelerating climate change, however, they have become central to the dynamics of a warming world. Both are key laboratories for studying global warming. The warming seen in the Antarctic peninsula has been of the order of 3% over the past half-century, about 10 times the average rate of world temperature increase. Those figures come from the British Antarctic Survey, an organisation which, as other noble Lords have rightly said, is now threatened with extinction, at least as an independent entity. I am very perturbed about the proposed merger. Some of the points have been so well made by other noble Lords, especially by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, that I will race through them fairly quickly, just as a penguin might do.

First, everyone recognises the need to cut costs, but the merger will not cut costs at all. This has been shown by other speakers and in independent reports. In my view, it will incur costs, especially if reputational damage is included. The UK, helped by the BAS, has played the dominant role in Antarctic legislation, something which has not been mentioned in the debate. Secondly, it is not just fundamental scientific work at stake. All work in the Antarctic and the proximate oceans now has major geopolitical relevance—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. What kind of signal will a contracted British presence send to other players in the region, especially the loss of the name of the organisation? Thirdly, all the former directors of BAS have expressed deep concern that safety may be compromised, which is really important in that environment. As one put it, “to run a serious and safe operation in the Antarctic and the dangerous waters of the Southern Ocean is not like running a travel agency or a bus company”. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, made the point very effectively. For these and other reasons, I urge that the proposed merger should be abandoned and other solutions explored.

15:19

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, I have a particular reason for being grateful to my noble friend Lady Hooper for giving us this opportunity to mark Scott’s science heritage. When Scott set off across the Ross Ice Shelf, he named an area Cape Selborne after my great grandfather, who was the First Lord of the Admiralty—and of course this was on the “Discovery”, not the “Terra Nova”, and was a naval expedition. I am only too pleased, four generations later, to pay tribute to Scott on his expedition. For many years I was a trustee of the Oates Museum, and two years ago, at the invitation of BAS, I visited the Rothera Research Station. It was only a short visit, but one could not help but be deeply impressed and humbled not just by the science and the scientists, but by the other people who support the work. I mention the pilots of the Twin Otter aircraft, who are remarkable people, the plumbers and carpenters and, as the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, mentioned, the dedication to health and safety, which is an extraordinarily important issue.

Today’s debate invites us to look at the scientific legacy, so I have plucked three names from the past 100 years which encapsulate some of this heritage. The first is that of Professor Frank Debenham, who came back from the Antarctic and set up the Scott Polar Research Institute at the University of Cambridge. Let us fast forward to the 1950s and to Sir Vivian Fuchs, director of the British Antarctic Survey, who set up many of the bases on the Antarctic Graham Peninsula and, of course, led the Commonwealth Trans-Antarctic Expedition. If we fast forward again to two months’ time, we have Sir Ran Fiennes who, in the tradition of the golden age, is to set off once again on an Antarctic crossing, this time during the winter.

Like everyone else, I now turn to the NERC consultation document. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Willis, on posing to us the real challenge of what questions we should be asking. Although I do not agree that the merger is the only alternative, and he has said that it has not yet been resolved, I think that we have to come up with some positive proposals to solve the problem of ever-increasing logistical costs squeezing the science, which is not something that anyone wants. The opening paragraph of the consultation document talks about exploiting “scientific synergies” and the need for a “long term vision”, as well as how to support science,

“in the most cost-effective way”.

We would all agree with such sound sense, but where we part company is how to achieve those aspirations. Perhaps I should declare an interest as a past chairman of the NOC Advisory Council and the present chair of another NERC advisory group.

The proposals are set out in surprising detail considering that a consultation document is meant to look at first principles. It even gives us the name of the new centre: the NERC Centre for Marine and Polar Science. That name is not going to catch on. As the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, has just pointed out, there is a reputational risk here since we will lose two good brands. I speak with some experience of this. When I chaired the Agricultural and Food Research Council in the 1980s, we had dramatic cuts forced on us, much greater than the pressures NERC is now facing. We decided to protect the “recognition of our investment”—as NERC puts it in its document—by labelling our institute with names like the “AFRC Institute of Arable Crops” and the “Institute for Grassland and Animal Research”. However, what happened was that BBSRC sensibly reverted to John Innes, Rothamsted and Babraham—these are the brands that matter. We do not need to worry about the reputational risk or the value of the investment at NERC; we should recognise that BAS and NOC are valuable brands that need protecting.

The question that must be asked is: are there synergies to be gained and is a merger the best way of achieving them? Within the NERC family there are organisations such as the British Geological Survey, the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, the National Centre for Atmospheric Science and the National Centre for Earth Observation. With all of these there are opportunities for synergy. Certainly with marine and polar science there are opportunities.

However, merger in itself does not achieve any of these synergies. It is NERC’s job to ensure that the different disciplines merge. In America they have combined oceanography, atmospheric sciences, satellite observation, weather forecasting and polar science into one organisation. That is the logical end to all mergers. I would focus on the smaller groups and keep costs down—but we will have to answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, about how we will make ends meet. The answer must be by sharing services and logistical support. Whether sharing the fleet will work, either under the ownership of NERC or of someone else, I do not know—but clearly that is the route that has to be explored.

It is essential to pool resources and share costs, but merging NOC and BAS is not the answer. I was very relieved to hear—and entirely accepted—what the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said: namely, that it is not a done deal. If it is not too late, let us have the costings and let us see what the costs would be of sharing rather than merging.

15:25

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness for providing us with an opportunity to mark the centenary of the Scott expedition to Antarctica. I chose to speak in this debate not because I have expert knowledge: I have none. I have not been to Antarctica, but I long to go. I know my fascination with this largely unknown continent—the last to be explored, the largest single mass of ice on earth, with some of the most spectacular mountain ranges anywhere in the world—is shared by many. For me, that fascination is inescapably bound up in the tragic outcome of Robert Falcon Scott’s Terra Nova expedition.

I suspect that many of us were brought up on the tale of Scott’s journey, of his party reaching the South Pole only to discover that they had been beaten by Roald Amundsen, and of the deaths of, first, Evans, then Oates, and finally Scott, Bowers and Wilson—whose watercolours, done in such extreme conditions, are a revelation. It is a tale of endurance and bravery in the face of unimaginable hardship; a tale of heroism that still resonates strongly in this centenary year. I commend the schools programme website of the Royal Geographical Society for the imaginative way in which it engages new and younger minds with this heroic venture.

When the bodies of Scott, Bowers and Wilson were found on 12 November 1912, some 35 pounds of rock samples were found with them. The men had continued to carry them despite their desperate state. Clearly, the expedition had been driven as much by science as by any dreams of claiming the pole for the British Empire.

The scientists who live and work in Antarctica today are following a tradition of research and exploration pioneered by the UK, but the Antarctic treaty that binds them is the true legacy of the heroic age of Antarctic exploration. The treaty’s 14 articles guarantee continued freedom to conduct scientific research and promote international scientific co-operation, and require that the results of research be made freely available.

As other noble Lords highlighted, it has never been more vital that we continue to learn whatever we can from this huge continent. The Library’s excellent briefing highlights how Antarctica’s unique climate and geography make it important to many globally significant processes. Understanding these processes is vital for understanding and predicting climate and environmental changes and their impacts, including future greenhouse gas levels, sea-level rise and changes in atmospheric composition—the hole in the ozone layer. We look to science to help equip us to tackle these challenges.

Our expertise in the UK is found in the British Antarctic Survey, which has been responsible for most of the UK’s scientific research in Antarctica over the past 60 years, and is funded by the Natural Environment Research Council. In researching this debate, I realised the number of national and international collaborations and joint research projects in which BAS is involved, with more than 40 UK universities. These projects show that we are still placing ourselves at the frontier of exploration in Antarctica. Yet despite this, as we heard today from all sides of the House, there is anxiety in the scientific academic community about the possible merger of the British Antarctic Survey and the National Oceanography Centre. It seems that, although this proposal aims,

“to better exploit the many scientific and operational synergies between marine and polar science”,

the fear is that funding cuts are the real driver. With other noble Lords, I ask the Minister to give us further assurances that the UK’s commitment to Antarctic research will not be undermined by the proposals.

It is fitting that in this centenary year our legacy of commitment to science and exploration is reflected in the remit of the international Scott centenary expedition, due to set off in November, and the British Services Antarctic Expedition, which has been carrying out scientific and exploration work on the Antarctic peninsula since January this year. Both expeditions are hoping to meet at the historic location of the last camp of Scott and his companions. I find this aspect particularly poignant. By now, the bodies lie tens of miles from their recorded position in 1912, buried under metres of impacted snow on the Ross Ice Shelf, which is drifting slowly northwards. A century or two from now, that piece of ice will meet the ocean and Scott’s last expedition will set sail again, in an iceberg, and the naval captain will finally receive a burial at sea.

Robert Falcon Scott’s son, the late Sir Peter Scott, felt that:

“We should have the sense to leave just one place alone”,

but I feel more in tune with the leader of the first commercial Antarctica cruise in 1966, who observed that,

“You can’t protect what you don’t know”.

We must continue to fund our ground-breaking research in Antarctica.

15:30

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hooper for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to those of other noble Lords in objecting to the NERC proposal to merge BAS and NOC. It is short-sighted and dangerous, will not necessarily save money and must not happen.

Along with the noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Mitchell, I visited the Antarctic and the Falkland Islands in January 2004 for a report of our Science and Technology Committee about international scientific treaties and the UK’s contribution to them. Of course, some of the most successful treaties to which the UK has made a massive contribution are the Antarctic treaties. Therefore, when we were invited by BAS to send four representatives to the south, we jumped at the chance to see for ourselves.

We saw plenty, because it was summer and we had 24 hours’ daylight. We saw the extreme nature of the conditions under which the programme operates and the need for operational expertise and proper resources both to enable the scientists to do their work and to keep them safe. Of course, if we had gone in the Antarctic winter we would have seen even more extreme conditions.

We were impressed by the quality of the people at Rothera and the outlying camps, and the care they took to abide by the treaties; for example, nothing must be left behind. The Antarctic is very important environmentally and also very beautiful—the last real wilderness—and it is vital that, in studying it, man does not destroy it. The camp at Rothera needed to be entirely self-sufficient so it had its own water treatment and sewage plant and generators, and in the winter it needed to carry supplies for many months—so the plumbers were just as important as the scientists.

We were all impressed by the professionalism, flexibility, egalitarian attitude, team spirit, loyalty, pride and commitment to their organisation of all who were there. These things are not easily generated or retained in an amorphous organisation but they are very important to a polar programme. Despite all this, the staff of BAS are not even mentioned until paragraph 36 of the consultation and then only as a set of numbers. Staff are BAS’s capital asset and the structure within which they work must serve them and not the other way round.

This has never been an inward-facing organisation. It faces outwards and is the greatest possible credit to UK science. It already demonstrates scientific synergies, mentioned in the consultation, and has partnerships with the NOC and many other organisations and universities. Of course, it is also very important geopolitically in a very sensitive part of the world. I warn the Government that, as Argentina makes rumblings about its claims to the Falkland Islands and the British Antarctic Territory, this is not the time—if there ever was one—to make major changes to the status of our national presence there.

The Government must understand in what very high esteem this organisation is held throughout the world, and how important its scientific work is. We all know that BAS scientists discovered the hole in the ozone layer but their achievements amount to a great deal more than that, as we have heard in earlier speeches.

The reputation of BAS contributes massively to the general reputation of UK science and we rely a great deal on that for commercial reasons that contribute to the economy. I want to mention that reputation further because preserving it requires a tight-knit team, not just an arm of something more nebulous.

Reputation is a precious but fragile thing. BAS’s reputation is based not only on the number and quality of the peer-reviewed papers that issue from it but on the operational and management efficiency that has been demonstrated, at least in the past. These would be compromised by the merger proposal. For example, despite BAS’s enviable reputation for safety, there were two tragic accidents some years ago. One was the death of a young scientist, Kirsty Brown, killed by a leopard seal when diving, and the other was the loss of the old Bonner Laboratory from fire. Both these events could have resulted in serious loss of reputation, but they did not. Why? It was because a professional team with a strong leader took control of both situations and managed the human, material, transport and reputational issues of both of them in a way that that was praised by family and in the media at the time. Could that tight control have been exercised under the proposed regime? I think not.

NERC has not made its case and the quality of the consultation document is poor. I beg the Government not to allow any decision to be made until the Science and Technology Committee has scrutinised the proposals.

15:36

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on securing this debate. Partly due to the topicality of the merger, it raises some hugely important questions—which NERC may be on to—about the broader, global, contextual matters within which the British Antarctic Survey could be more integrated. I shall come to a proposition that I should like to make about the relationship between the Antarctic and the Arctic.

My particular interest in the debate lies in the fact that my cousin, Mary-Anne Lea, is a senior member of the Australian Antarctic team, based at the University of Tasmania in Hobart. She spends a good deal of time in the Antarctic. When she is in London, she stays in my flat and I am always brought up to date on what is going on in the Antarctic.

It seems to me that we are somehow today asking the wrong question. A former trade union colleague of mine had a favourite quip. He would often say, “Well, if that’s the answer, it must be a bloody silly question”. I think that this is possibly a bloody silly question if you look at the billions, trillions and zillions of pounds being spent around the Arctic. A wonderful book was published a couple of years ago, which I recommend anyone to read, The Future History of the Arctic by Charles Emmerson. There are all sorts of similarities, as well as differences, between the carve-up in the Arctic and the carve-up in the Antarctic. Although the political question of the sea bed in the Arctic is not analogous to that in Antarctic, there are some things that do connect them.

When I was a member of a parliamentary delegation a couple of years ago to some islands in the Pacific equator—they used to be called the Gilbert and Ellice Islands—an Australian oceanographer was there. He was hands-on. He had a sort of stick—it was a bit more sophisticated than a stick—looking at the sea levels over donkey’s years on the equator. There was no acceleration, but the level was going up by three millimetres a year—that is one-eighth of an inch. It so happens, and many colleagues will have read the recent papers on all this, that there is a paradox: where the sea ice in the Arctic is shrinking fast, in Antarctica, it has been steadily expanding in recent years. The research that has been done suggests that the two polar zones are reacting differently because of local circumstances. We read today that a Russian Arctic oil company has become the biggest producer of oil in the world, or is shortly to become so. You can imagine that a few billion pounds here and a few billion pounds there soon start to add up to real money. If I can carry on my metaphor a bit further, we are certainly talking here about peanuts. Now, it is all very well if I tell Mr Osborne that this is peanuts: he will say that these peanuts need to be found from somewhere else. Let us find them from somewhere else.

Why can there not be a global, north-south look at future comparisons of the Arctic and Antarctic on the basis of some money from the oil companies or something like that? We could, as it were, help sponsor those with reputation, as the noble Lord, Lord Selborne, said. We might use another word for hypothecation—it may be creeping forward a bit in the philosophy of the Labour Party, but I will be corrected if I am saying something out of order on that. Yet you cannot sell the product of this research quite in the way that you can capture it to an individual. This is the case for market externalities being part of the public purse.

There is a marvellous opportunity here for getting out of the box that NERC seems to be in and taking a world lead in a totally different way, whereby you get some funding for a succession of ad hoc studies or something like that. Yes, please retain the brand. That is like saying that the Church of England or the TUC has been in decline: you would not get rid of the brand just because of financial difficulties. The brand is the asset in many ways. I hope that the Minister will start to think about whether a different question could produce a better and more relevant answer.

15:41

[Baroness Sharples]

My Lords, I am also very grateful to my noble friend for introducing today’s debate. Sadly, I have never been to the Antarctic and think I have left it a bit too late to do so. I am very fortunate to have a three-way connection with Scott. My youngest stepson, Robert Swan, is the first man in history to have walked to both poles, as noted in the Guinness book of records. With Roger Mear, he was successful in arriving at the South Pole in 1986, only to find that his supply ship, “Southern Quest”, had sunk. Since then, he has returned a number of times with others to clear up the amount of rubbish that I have no doubt that those who have been to Antarctica have seen around the South Pole and, sadly, near Scott’s hut.

Secondly, my stepfather, Claud Hamilton, was a friend of Scott’s doctor, who I believe was a New Zealander. He and my stepfather left me a number of photographs of Scott’s expedition. Somebody from Cambridge saw them and, as they did not have them, I handed them over for their archives—where they belong.

Thirdly, only recently an American researcher from McMurdo Sound contacted me to say that he has seen Mount Newall, which was named after my grandfather. I understand that there is also a glacier named after him. My grandfather was a successful stockbroker and evidently twice helped Scott’s finances with the replacement of “Discovery”. The Stock Exchange raised large sums to help Scott—the Government of the time were very reluctant to help.

As my noble friend does, I well remember Eddie, Lord Shackleton in this House. He was also my stepson’s patron, as were Peter Scott and Vivian Fuchs. Explorers who risk everything deserve great admiration, if they are successful or not.

Robert goes into business now to motivate staff to—as he says, in not very polite English—get off their backsides and do something like he did. He did it without any money: he raised all the money and managed to be successful. Nobody has mentioned that some years ago he wrote a book about 2041, expressing his concerns that the international treaty now in existence could be modified or changed to allow mining and resource exploration in the Antarctic. He very much hopes that he is proved wrong. We must hope that the schoolchildren of today safeguard the future of such a fantastic region of the world and make certain that it is not despoiled by greed.

15:44

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness on securing this debate. I am particularly keen on thanking her because she has brought to their feet a great many women Peers. She will know very well that, for a long time, Antarctica was a territory forbidden to women. This country had a very bad reputation in that respect; it is doing better than it did; but it is not nearly good enough. The Americans have a ratio of about 60 men to 40 women on their bases. Our record is nothing like as good. The leadership of the noble Baroness is much to be welcomed.

I rise with unusual diffidence because I am fully aware that I am talking about a subject which most noble Lords know far more about than I do. When I tell them that there are actually two Antarcticas—an east and a west—they will tell me that I am teaching them to suck eggs, which is perfectly true, but that distinction is very important. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, brought it out when he talked about the ice cores being brought up. The extraordinary fact is that at the bottom of one of them was ice which was formed by snow that had fallen 800,000 years ago. I find one detail even more exciting than that: trapped in that ice was air from about 800,000 years ago, long before any of us was ever thought of.

The whole point is that East Antarctica represents our past; West Antarctica represents our future. If I may burden your Lordships, I recommend to you all reading a marvellous new book written by an Englishwoman called Gabrielle Walker. It is simply entitled Antarctica. It is 350 pages long; I have another 30 pages to read. It is brilliant. Anyone who reads the penultimate chapter alone will take seriously the question of human responsibility for our future as being reflected in the developments in West Antarctica.

I have been very fortunate. I have been down to Antarctica five times. I regret to have to tell your Lordships that that has made me a bit of a snob. I do not regard people who have gone down in a 20,000 tonne cruise ship and got off at the northern tip of the Antarctic peninsula as having visited the Antarctic; they have just had an opportunity for a few nice photographs. Just crossing the Antarctic convergence is not enough for me; to do it, you have to cross the Antarctic Circle, which is quite a difficult thing to do, as anyone who knows the map of Antarctica will confirm.

I never got to the pole, I got as far as 78 degrees, 35 minutes and a few seconds south. I am very ambitious—I hope to persuade the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, also to be ambitious—to go again and go further south. All the business about 20,000 people a year visiting Antarctica is in my view complete and absolute rubbish.

I was also fortunate in that I completed a circumnavigation of Antarctica in two halves. I now come to my constructive point. I have been very fortunate to visit several emperor penguin colonies. That is not easy. You have to go on an icebreaker, and there are not any around any more making that trip. I seriously suggest to the Government that they set up a programme for secondary school children of a suitable sort to visit Antarctica and have the opportunity to go on a small icebreaker so that they can get through the outer ice, the lees and then the ice on the fringes of the continent itself. Then they can see for themselves the magic of emperor penguin colonies.

Lastly, I want a firm assurance that the Government will support the Antarctic treaty whenever it comes up for renewal.

15:49

[Lord Mitchell]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on securing this important and timely debate, and all noble Lords who have taken part this afternoon. The debate is relevant on two counts: first: our pride in celebrating Scott’s centenary; and secondly, by way of contrast, our deep concern, which has been expressed today, over the proposed imminent organisational changes at BAS.

No Briton can be indifferent to the exploits of our great explorers who went to the polar regions a hundred years ago. Captain Scott’s mission to be the first man to reach the South Pole has captivated us ever since. Similarly, we remain enthralled by the heroic exploits of Ernest Shackleton. Polar exploration still fills us with awe. Both missions failed in their principal objective. Nevertheless, they both captured the very essence of our nation: gritty determination overcoming all the odds and, above all, never giving up.

In 2004, I chaired an investigation on behalf of your Lordships’ House into science and treaties. We decided to visit the British base at Rothera because the base is one of the few places on earth that is owned by no one and is governed by international treaty. I was accompanied by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble—and indefatigable—Lord, Lord Oxburgh. I do not know whether it is possible to go native in a land without natives, but I went native. For all of us, it changed our lives. Certainly for me, it was the trip of a lifetime, and I think about it often. I can top the story told by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert: we had gin and tonics with ice that was 800,000 years old.

There are three aspects that I would like to address—the science, the base itself and the geopolitical aspects—but I cannot start without addressing the proposed merger. Management by spreadsheet is a process beloved of all accountants, but it is a process that studiously avoids good will or what those accountants would call soft assets. Any creative person will tell you that once the suits get involved, the very heart goes out of the project. The British Antarctic Survey is a national treasure in a way that neither NERC nor NOC could ever be. BAS carries on in the spirit of Scott and Shackleton. To subsume BAS, to gut it, to leave it out unloved on some organisational limb would be a supreme act of folly. Only the spreadsheets could come to that conclusion. I listened to the forceful words of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, but what NERC has done so far hardly gives hope for the future, and to my noble friend Lord Lea I say please keep the oil companies away from Antarctica. I think I speak for the whole House, except for the noble Lord, Lord Willis, in saying that we are against this merger, and I hope that NERC is listening.

My first and very direct question to the Minister is this: will she please tell us what is planned for BAS and can she assure us that its prominence and independence will be maintained? Our planet is under threat, primarily from global warming. We know it to be so, but there are many who reject the fact that global warming is manmade. Those people are powerful, and they have a great deal of influence. They are not just the evangelicals in the United States or the mega energy companies; we even have some of them in your Lordships’ House. The only way we can refute them is by science-based evidence.

BAS has a history of alerting the world to such global dangers. It is to the forefront of protecting the earth because it is at the vanguard of global scientific research. The discovery of the ozone layer and its depletion was a major BAS discovery. The awareness that that created about the potential dangers to our environment led to untold benefits for our natural environment. BAS’s ongoing work is world-class. Despite its relatively small size, it is at the summit in the number of scientific papers and citations it produces. Its principal work is studying the effects of seawater warming, the retreating ice shelves and the changes in marine, animal and plant behaviour as well as co-operating with our international partners to measure the dangers to our planet. Can we seriously contemplate downgrading this influential institution by merging it into irrelevance?

Unless you have visited the BAS base, it is very hard to convey how special and unique the place really is. From what I hear, several of the key people involved in this proposed takeover have not even been there. Because it is so remote, and because it is also so dangerous, the people who work there are a special breed. There are scientists, of course, but there is also the full complement of support staff and others. With only one or two ships visiting a year, the base has to be self-sufficient. It has everything necessary—doctors, plumbers, pilots and cooks—but what struck me most of all is that they are all part of an interdisciplinary scientific family. Support staff assist the scientists, scientists wash the dishes, and everyone pitches in.

The base brings out the best of people, but this does not happen by chance. It happens through excellent management and charismatic leadership—at least that was the situation when we were there, but from what they tell me, it is less the case.

In addition to my own thoughts on this matter, I would like to add a few words of my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland of Asthal—previously the Attorney-General—who, while Minister responsible for the Overseas Territories, visited the Antarctic with BAS. Sadly she cannot be here today. She said, “I was much impressed by the excellent quality and importance of the science carried out by BAS. While the famous BAS paper by Farman and his colleagues on the discovery of the ozone hole remains by a long way the most cited research paper in the history of Antarctic science, BAS continues to be a world leader in such topics as the exploration of ice cores. However, it is in the area of environment and conservation, in addition to curiosity-driven discoveries, that BAS provides a special expertise relied upon by the British Government in its role as a consultative party of the Antarctic treaty system. The deliberations and decisions of the Antarctic treaty consultative meetings need to be based on evidence and facts. BAS scientists are acknowledged leaders in the field, providing the UK with a powerful base for maintaining its interests and influence. Yet despite BAS’s front-ranking science and achievement, it was the egalitarian coherence and tight integration that left the most lasting impression. I also want to remind their Lordships of the geopolitical sensitivities of the South Atlantic, in which—for decades—the BAS presence has been the primary means by which the UK expresses its ongoing interests. To risk sending the slightest signal that could be interpreted as a weakening of UK resolve or an inability through austerity to maintain such a presence risks consequences of an historic nature. Far better to maintain and strengthen BAS in its current successful form for the benefits of science”.

I, too, would now like to address the geopolitical aspects of BAS. The bases in Antarctica are located in a part of the world which is very sensitive to our national interest. The Falklands and the southern islands are still in play, as they were in 1982. Oil and fish are both resources which are prized by other nations and it is not surprising that the politicians in Buenos Aires are watching our every move. As Einstein said:

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”.

We are on the verge of doing just that: taking an insane decision by ineptitude that could cause us much pain. Any downgrade of the BAS bases on the peninsula would be interpreted as weakness, just as it was in 1982.

I am told that the Prime Minister and other members of the National Security Council gave a very clear directive: that BAS was not to be touched and not to be downgraded in any way. Therefore, I ask the Minister: is this true? I hope it is true, because it would be the correct decision. From what I hear, however, this directive is being ignored. Again, is the Minister aware of this and is this true?

We are talking about matters of national security, where vital decisions have been taken in Downing Street. We cannot allow them to be overruled by the spreadsheets in Swindon. We have a national treasure which is doing vital work to protect the planet; but we also have an outpost that represents our commitment to the South Atlantic. Boots on the snow really matter. If we downgrade Rothera, we will never recover. The Foreign Secretary should make a very public statement committing his Government’s support for BAS. Otherwise, others will draw their own conclusions.

Finally, there are four words that buzz around my head and it is a question that I must ask the Minister: What would Maggie do?

15:59

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, this is an interesting moment in which to address the third debate in my new job but the first in this Chamber. Before I turn to the debate, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Howell, who is a hard act to follow, but I will try. As the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, said, I am quickly learning that Members of this House invariably will always know more than me in almost every debate.

I am grateful for the opportunity to respond for the Government on this debate brought by my noble friend Lady Hooper on the centenary of Captain Scott’s death and Britain’s enduring scientific legacy and physical presence in Antarctica. I am proud to say that the Government share the strength of feeling in this House on the importance of Scott’s legacy and the great scientific and strategic value of Antarctica to the United Kingdom’s long-term interests. Recently, there has been speculation that possible changes to the British Antarctic Survey may result in a downgrading of British interest or capacity. I want specifically to reassure noble Lords that Ministers are absolutely committed to maintaining and developing a physical presence in Antarctica.

Let me start with a few words on Captain Scott and his brave team. Despite the tragedy of their final journey, their moving story is one of bravery, endurance and good fellowship, and, importantly, of their commitment to scientific discovery. The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, eloquently narrated the poignant story, as did my noble friend Lady Sharples in relation to her personal connections to “Discovery” and “Endeavour”. It is those attributes that have been such a source of pride as we remember and celebrate this centenary year of Scott’s achievement.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is proud to have been able to support the organisation of the memorial service in St Paul’s Cathedral for Captain Scott and his colleagues in the presence of Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal. We have also marked the centenary in other ways. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister recorded a message that was broadcast to all those working in Antarctica. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary signed an agreement with his Norwegian counterpart to celebrate our shared polar history and increased co-operation on heritage and science issues. The Minister for the Polar Regions at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office hosted a reception for the descendants of the Scott expedition. On behalf of this House, I thank everyone in the Antarctic community who made the centenary such a success.

The centenary has been about remembering the bravery and sacrifices of Scott’s expedition and the truly world-class scientific legacy that endures to this day. Both the British Antarctic Survey and the Scott Polar Research Institute are world-leading centres of excellence, supporting the United Kingdom’s strong record on science, discovery and education about Antarctica. My noble friend Lord Avebury and the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, are right to raise the impact of the science of Antarctica on our understanding of climate change. It was the long-term monitoring of activities in Antarctica that allowed British scientists to discover the ozone hole in 1984. There is no doubt that the UK will continue to undertake world-class science in Antarctica.

We anticipate that in just a few weeks’ time the British Lake Ellsworth project will begin to drill down through three kilometres of ice to a freshwater lake that has been hidden for hundreds of thousands of years. That is possible only because of British scientists, British companies, British innovation and the British spirit of exploration. It is exactly the kind of endeavour that is the spirit of Scott. It is not too far-fetched to say that there is a golden thread of scientific excellence running directly from those first ambitious steps of Scott’s scientific work right through to projects such as Lake Ellsworth today. That thread is strong but it is not unbreakable, and we should not take it for granted. The noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Hunt, raised important concerns. Both come to this debate with great expertise and experience. Let me assure this House that this Government recognise the thread of that science and its importance, and we will take all the steps necessary to preserve British supremacy in this field.

British scientists have the confidence and ability to operate in Antarctica because of the strong presence, experience and logistical skill of the British Antarctic Survey. In turn, the importance of the science that can be carried out in Antarctica justifies and reinforces the need to have the strongest possible presence and the widest reach. Let me assure noble Lords, and specifically concerns raised by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, that there is no doubt that Antarctica matters to the United Kingdom. British explorers were the first to venture there and we were the first to claim territory. We have maintained a permanent year-round presence in Antarctica since 1944 and we will continue to do so.

The British Antarctic Territory is the largest of the UK’s overseas territories and the Government place great importance on ensuring its security and good governance. British presence is maintained jointly by the British Antarctic Survey and the Royal Navy, whose ice patrol vessel, HMS “Protector”, plays a vital role in delivering our responsibilities.

Our national Antarctic programmes are proud to operate from the Falkland Islands, which is a vital gateway to both the British Antarctic Territory and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The Government understand the importance of maintaining close links between all British activities in the South Atlantic and visibly demonstrating our strongest possible long-term commitment to the region.

As Antarctica emerges from its long winter sleep and the 30 men and women of the British Antarctic Survey who have kept the lights burning there for the past six months prepare for their companions to rejoin them, it is fitting to thank them and to remember the hardships that Antarctic service still entails. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, is right to pay tribute to all those who work there. In particular, I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the 29 men and women who have died on active Antarctic service for Britain in the region over the past 60 years. Just as they are never forgotten by their family and friends, so they and their sacrifices are remembered by us.

This Government recognise and respect our international commitments to Antarctica, in particular to the Antarctic treaty, which the UK was instrumental in bringing into existence. For more than 50 years the Antarctic treaty has preserved Antarctica for peace and science. It is arguably one of the world’s most successful international agreements. Antarctica is the only continent never to have seen conflict and the UK will strive to ensure that this will always be the case.

The Antarctic peninsula is one of the fastest warming and therefore most rapidly changing places on the planet. There are serious challenges ahead as the ice melts, accessibility increases and the climate becomes more welcoming to new species carried there either by natural means or by human activity. Britain will continue to provide global leadership in responding to these challenges and, in the spirit of Scott, we will strive for success no matter how difficult things get. In particular, we will work to ensure that the prohibition on the commercial extraction of minerals and hydrocarbons remains in place. We will seek agreement to ensure that everyone who visits Antarctica does so in a safe and environmentally friendly way. We will support new legislation to implement a new agreement on liability for environmental emergencies in Antarctica. We will press for higher standards for vessels visiting the Southern Ocean, particularly fishing vessels. We will advocate the establishment of further marine protection measures for the Southern Ocean, building on our experience of creating the world’s first high seas marine protected area to the south of the South Orkney Islands in 2009.

However, given the rich Antarctic tradition, concerns about the future of British engagement are understandable. Noble Lords have raised a number of important issues this afternoon in relation to the future of the British presence. I want to be absolutely clear; Ministers have agreed that the dual mission of science and presence will continue and that Britain’s physical footprint in Antarctica in ships, aircraft and bases will be maintained. Importantly, I assure noble Lords that the iconic British Antarctic Survey name will be retained for all activities and logistics relating to the Antarctic and the South Atlantic. I take the important point made by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, on branding and that made by my noble friend Lady Walmsley on reputation.

The Natural Environment Research Council has confirmed that it will continue to deliver for the UK both regional presence in Antarctica and the South Atlantic and a world-class science programme. It has also confirmed that it will maintain an overt and clearly branded British presence in Antarctica, maintain the logistical and strategic footprint of the British Antarctic Survey, ensure full ongoing support for the Antarctic treaty process and appoint a British director to manage and oversee all British activities in Antarctica. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Willis for his clear and concise contribution, which dealt with some of the misunderstanding around the recent consultation.

These and others are strong and good reasons to be confident about the future of Britain’s scientific activity and physical presence in Antarctica. The next four months will see the start of the sub-glacial Lake Ellsworth drilling project, the official opening of the brand new Halley VI module on the Antarctic ice shelf and, I hope, an opportunity for this House to debate the new Antarctic Bill to increase environmental protection for the region. These are all genuine reasons for optimism.

Yes, Ministers have been actively engaged in this decision, including the financial case that was raised by my noble friend Lord Avebury. No final decision has been made on the merger; all responses on the consultation, as well as the views of noble Lords heard in the House today, will be considered.

The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, raised a specific question about financial contributions to the conservation of the Scott huts. The Government of the British Antarctic Territory, an overseas territory, provide ongoing funding to the UK Antarctic Heritage Trust. The trust uses that funding to support the conservation of British huts.

My noble friend Lady Hooper asked a specific question about the Antarctic science strategy. The Natural Environment Research Council is developing its forward strategy and will require its research centres, including the British Antarctic Survey, to do likewise.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised concerns about why science is increasingly required to focus on commercial interests for commercial activity. Research councils, including NERC, fund research into all aspects of science, from frontier science to closed-market activities. Scientific excellence is the essential criterion.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised the issue of communication. I share the view that the Antarctic treaty needs to do more to communicate with the public. For the UK’s part, the FCO developed with BAS and the Royal Geographical Society a BAFTA-nominated educational website, www.discoveringantarctica.org.uk, which was developed to do just that.

I hope that in answering noble Lords’ concerns, I have assured the noble Lord, Lord Lea, that the Government are asking the right questions to get the right answers.

I am grateful for the opportunity presented by my noble friend Lady Hooper to pay tribute to Captain Scott and his brave team, and to his enduring legacy. Today Antarctica matters to the United Kingdom more than ever as a place of peace, common scientific endeavour, international collaboration and environmental protection. Looking back across the years and the vast whiteness of the Antarctic continent to that last desolate camp where they met their fate, I would like to think that Scott, his team and their descendants would be proud of what we have achieved in Antarctica and what we will continue to achieve in the years ahead.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, in summarising the research, the Minister has referred to the British Antarctic Survey, which is fine, but 50% of that research is done in universities, which she has not mentioned.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the questions raised today have predominantly been about the British Antarctic Survey. I hope that in addressing noble Lords’ concerns I have specifically referred to BAS. The Government remain committed to science, wherever it may take place.

I believe that the debate today has shown that, in Antarctica, Britain has the strongest possible tradition, the clearest ministerial commitment to maintaining and developing our scientific and physical presence, and significant opportunities for the future. With the commitment and skill of the brave men and women of the British Antarctic Survey, those of the Royal Navy and the many other researchers and workers in Antarctica, I have every confidence that we will be able to live up to what Scott described in his final moving message as,

“a tale of hardihood, endurance and courage”,

to stir the heart.

16:13

[Baroness Hooper]

My Lords, this has been an excellent, fascinating and constructive debate. I am particularly glad that voices have been raised from all sides of the House, and indeed that the balance of male and female voices has met with the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert. Questions clearly still need to be answered about the way forward, and difficult decisions lie ahead. However, we can take some comfort from the assurances that the proposed merger of BAS and NOC is not a done deal, and that there is government recognition of the role and work of BAS and of the importance and relevance of the brands as they stand. I hope that the views expressed by so many noble Lords with real knowledge and experience will be taken into account, not only by NERC and the Foreign Office but by all the government departments that should be involved in such an important issue.

In thanking all noble Lords for their participation, I also congratulate the Minister, who in her new Foreign Office role is proof of the fate of Lords Ministers in every department, which is to have to answer questions and reply to debates on subjects far removed from their own departmental responsibilities.

Motion agreed.

Bus Industry

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Question for Short Debate

16:15

Asked By

[Lord Bradshaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have for further developments in the bus industry.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Punctuality and reliability are the main concerns of passengers. The obvious way to resolve this is to implement Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004. It has been on the statute book for eight years and has not been implemented. Yet, if there is any single thing that the Government can do to improve the operation of buses in towns and cities, this is it. The Welsh Government have introduced measures to ensure that the Act is implemented, and they have done all the legal work that may be involved. It can be transcribed into English law quite easily and much less expensively than I have been told before.

The second issue that I want to bring to noble Lords’ attention is the precarious state of rural services and services used in many areas by holidaymakers. It is all very well for people to say, “We are not in the tourism business”, but the buses that the holiday visitors use are in fact the same buses as those that convey, in particular, pensioners with discretionary travel arrangements. No duplicates are likely to be provided next summer because the operators cannot afford to run them, and they receive no proper recompense for them from the Government. Buses will be overcrowded in those areas, and regular fare-paying passengers will be left behind because the seats will have already been taken by people who do not pay fares.

The issue of young people’s fares is extremely important because it is at that age that people consider buying a car. The railways have a national scheme for cheaper travel for young people. I am certainly not asking for a free travel scheme for those people, but there should be a national scheme, and I should like to know whether the Government are doing anything to bring that about.

The Government speak about the need for fuel efficiency and say that that is one of the reasons why they wish to terminate bus service operator grants. There is a much better way—it is to encourage bus operators, through various funding mechanisms, to use a scheme called RIBAS. There is a similar scheme on the market which monitors drivers’ performance, all their driving techniques, their speeds and other things. I urge the Government to give consideration to this as a much more useful means of improving drivers’ behaviour generally and cutting fuel costs. I know of one company that operates the scheme whose fuel costs have reduced by 5%.

Can the Minister tell me what is considered to be a reasonable level of profit for an operator who is trying to keep his fleet of buses up to date and his staff properly trained? It is all very well for people to talk about bus barons as if they had gold flowing out of their pockets but, in fact, a number of reputable small operators simply cannot afford to keep up with the business and are actually thinking of selling up. In my own area of Oxfordshire, one independent operator went out of business last week.

Making bids for various funds costs a lot of money. The better bus area fund provision excludes population centres under 100,000, which directly discriminates against out-of-centre bus operations. The rural or inter-urban bus operator is desperately waiting for the Government to come forward with a comprehensive and reasonable scheme to suit them.

The Competition Commission and the competition authorities have had an extensive inquiry into the bus industry. I should like to know how much money the Government estimate that has cost the taxpayer and the bus industry, which has had to provide information for the inquiry. The results are, frankly, pathetic. Just one or two small extensions to the powers of traffic commissioners could have done more than was achieved by the Competition Commission at a much lower cost. I urge the Minister to go back and tell his honourable friends that their—I am not sure how to describe it—reluctance to give the traffic commissioners power is really rather silly. I think that it probably smacks more of interdepartmental in-fighting than it does of a concern for a competitive and healthy industry.

We are also very concerned about the compensation culture, which is costing bus companies a lot of money. I am fairly certain that many insurance companies are complicit in the knock-for-knock arrangements, whereby they settle a claim even though one of the parties is innocent and that party then calls on his insurance company to make good the loss.

At the last estimate, anti-social behaviour—for example, damaging buses—cost the industry about £574 million. Most of the cost of crime related to crimes against the individual—either a passenger or a member of staff—with the remaining 39% being costs to the operator resulting from damage to vehicles. Although they may be repaired very quickly, such damage inevitably means that a bus will not be in service for a day or two, and that is extremely expensive for the operator.

I should like to know—if anybody does know—how many members of the Cabinet or, for that matter, heads of county councils ever travel on a bus outside London. I accept that they might get on a bus in London because it is convenient to do so. However, the people who run bus services and send money to the bus companies to subsidise passengers have very little experience of what life is like, even though the bus is by far the most popular means of public transport in the country.

I know of an excellent operator who has invested in many new buses, but this year his fuel prices are 58% higher than they were last year due to the reduction in the bus service operator grant. He has already had to raise fares three times this year in a poorer area of the country, and that is a serious matter that needs to be addressed.

The industry is short of skilled staff to deal with both modern diagnostics, which relate to the engine and the fuel system, and the very complicated ticket machines which are being introduced. There is simply not the skilled staff available to deal with these matters. I would like to hear whether the Government have any proposals on this.

Some local authorities—I believe that Cornwall was one of them—have decided to specify the bus services through the procurement department rather than through their transport staff. The procurers will not accept non-compliant bids. That works against the grain as the specification needs to be in the hands of people who understand bus services. Much of the consultation that the Government have put out on the bus industry—a new one came out last month—never seems to make the case for the proposed changes. The consultation is about implementation but the decision has already been made about what will be done. That needs to be changed so that people understand what the Government are trying to achieve.

Lastly, and this summarises the whole thing in a way, in local authorities transport is a discretionary duty. Local authorities face a 28% cut in grant and they have to have higher regard for their statutory duties. Libraries and, particularly, bus services are two areas that are being starved of money. Again, I would like to know what the Government propose because if any more money is delegated to local authorities from national funds, it is likely to find its way out of the bus industry into other services.

16:26

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. I do not have any financial interests to declare in these matters. I should point out that I chair the Bus Appeals Board, which is a purely voluntary post and I have over the years worked for both the National Express Group and First Group on the bus side.

The noble Lord started his speech by referring to the two important factors in running bus services being punctuality and reliability. Unlike him, I am not sure which piece of legislation he was referring to but I am sure that he would agree with me that these matters are largely the responsibility of highways authorities, outside passenger transport executive areas or passenger transport executives—the integrated transport authorities as we are now to know them—within our major cities. I hope that when the Minister replies, he will agree with me that punctuality and reliability do not depend on ownership of bus companies.

I find it depressing that people in my own party, in particular, continually call for reregulation although it is more than 25 years since buses were deregulated. Since then, we have had the back end of a Conservative Government, 13 years of a Labour Government and now two and a half years of a coalition Government, and the 1986 Act has not been repealed. We should make the best of what we have. In many parts of the country, not only are bus services thriving, there are lots of successes to point to without getting into arguments of ownership and reregulation.

I spent most of my working life in the bus industry, although that is a rather flattering description of someone who was chairman of a bus company. Many people who drove buses would not have regarded the chairman as being part of their working lives. But I did mix with them and held a PSV, as it was known at the time. In the West Midlands there has been a considerable number of successes in bus operations that have continued in recent years. Within the past year Centro and a passenger transport authority, or the ITA as it now is, and National Express, the predominant operator in the area, signed a ground-breaking agreement that commits the two organisations to working closely together to drive forward about £25 million worth of improvements for bus passengers across the West Midlands within two years. These commitments from both sides—certainly as far as National Express is concerned— include the introduction of more than 300 new, greener buses, improved onboard cleanliness, a smart card system similar to London’s Oyster card and upgrades to bus shelters and other waiting facilities. They also include more real-time information screening, which will be a great boon to anyone waiting for a bus, specially designed shelters and infrastructures, new passenger information systems, onboard announcements —on which I am not madly keen but they are obviously the thing of the future—improvements to the safety and security arrangements for passengers and the introduction of 40 hybrid electric buses to the region.

However, there is a lack of enforcement of the existing legislation, particularly in regard to bus lane provision. In London we are fortunate: there are lots of buses and most motorists know—they soon find out if they do not—that straying into a bus lane will be immediately followed by a minimum £60 fine. Why do we not have that level of enforcement throughout the country? I presume that is the part of the Act to which the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Perhaps I may extend that. I am particularly concerned about yellow-box junctions and right turns, which are clogging the roads. Local authorities need to have the power to deal with moving traffic offences. They can film the offence but they cannot do anything about it.

[Lord Snape]

I am grateful for that clarification. I agree entirely with the noble Lord. Why are not the benefits that bus operators and passengers enjoy in London extended to the rest of the country? I hope that when the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, replies he will be able to give us some comfort on this matter. The greenest, most modern buses are not doing the job for which they are designed if they are stuck in traffic. We are not going to persuade people to get out of their cars and on to public transport if that bus is stuck in the same traffic jam as their own cars.

However, it is not all bad news. I hope the noble Earl and my noble friend on the Front Bench will acknowledge that one rarely hears mention of bus passengers in these debates. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, hazarded a guess that not many Ministers travel by bus. I suggest that many Members of your Lordships’ House do so, if only because most of us have reached the age where we get a financial benefit out of doing so.

If one were to ask bus passengers about the standard of service, one might be pleasantly surprised by the reaction. Passenger Focus recently commissioned a nationwide survey of various companies and sought the opinion of bus passengers. I will cite the Go Ahead group survey. I do not think it operates in my part of the world and I have never worked for it, so I cannot be accused of bias. Among more than 3,000 Go Ahead passengers consulted in the survey, there was an 86% satisfaction level. Would any Government of the day receive such satisfaction levels from the populace at large?

Go North-East, a subsidiary of Go Ahead, had an 88% satisfaction level. I mention this because Nexus, the ITA in the north-east, is, I understand, most anxious to introduce a quality contract. Under the terms of the quality contract the ITA will set both fares and standards of service. I do not know whether Nexus or anyone else has asked passengers in the north-east what they think, but if 88% are satisfied with the service currently provided, it is difficult to imagine that local authority involvement would lead to any greater satisfaction. I will be interested to hear the views of both Front Benches on that matter.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, I believe that we should express concern about the price of bus travel, particularly for young people and those seeking employment. All too often Ministers in the present Government—the Chancellor of the Exchequer immediately comes to mind—refer to the unemployed as though somehow it is their fault. When you talk to people who are unemployed—most of us who were in the other place have served the unemployed—the passion, commitment and desire for regular work inspires many of them. However, it is an expensive business to travel to interviews. Only last week a woman told me about going to two interviews here in this city, both of which were held early in the day. That meant she had to pay £10.77 to travel around London because she had to leave during the morning rush hour. Had the interviews been scheduled slightly later in the day, the cost would have been £7-something. For many in your Lordships’ House that £3 would not make much difference, but the unemployed have to decide how best to spend their benefits and it can make a considerable difference.

The Minister will tell me if I am wrong, but I understand that it is possible for people to claim the cost of travel to job interviews. I am told that it is an enormously bureaucratic matter to do so and that it is necessary to jump through all sorts of hoops. Surely the Department for Transport and the department for employment, whatever it is called these days, could sit down and provide some sort of travel voucher for the unemployed to use when they are seeking work. I realise that getting two departments under any Government to discuss financial allocations is the equivalent of the Korean peace talks at Pyongyang, which have lasted for over 50 years, but it ought to be possible to find a less bureaucratic and more humane system than what we have at present.

Unaccountably we have 90 minutes for this debate, but we have been told that we are limited to 10 minutes. Perhaps someone better versed in the rules of your Lordships’ House could explain that, since only four of us are participating. The noble Lord touched on other matters, particularly the distribution of the bus service operators grant. I do not think the Government are aware of the difference between running rural and urban services. The rural bus network is in grave danger of being decimated over the next few years if the changes to BSOG continue. It is an open secret that the Treasury has always regarded BSOG as a subsidy well worth cutting, and having reduced it in the 2011 Budget, there is an intention to actually abolish it before 2015. Such an abolition will lead to the complete decimation of bus services both urban and rural, but particularly in rural areas. It strikes me that the Government will be committing electoral suicide in many areas that are regarded as traditionally Conservative if BSOG is cut further.

I have now exhausted my time. There is some good news about bus service provision, and I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will avoid the view—not expressed by passengers—that the simple answer to any problems are quality contracts and reregulation. That is not the view of those who use the bus to get from A to B.

16:38

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, in the light of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, I am not sure whether I am required as a bus user both in London and outside London to declare an interest in this debate. I also suspect, having listened to the contribution of my noble friend Lord Snape, that there will be little support behind me, at least from those who have spoken, for what I have to say. But, nevertheless, we proceed.

This is neither the best attended debate nor a debate that has attracted a large number of speakers. However, its subject matter is of considerable importance since more people travel by bus than travel by every other form of public transport combined. I am grateful to the Library of the House for the comprehensive and helpful briefing pack it has provided. Before I go any further I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for giving us an opportunity to discuss developments in the bus industry. One development was a Competition Commission report on the industry outside London, which found that what it described as widespread market segregation had occurred as a result of operator behaviour.

However, the bus industry also has much about which it can be pleased. The 2012 bus passenger survey by Passenger Focus, the official passenger watchdog, found that on average 85% of passengers in England, excluding London, were satisfied with their bus journeys. My noble friend Lord Snape, whose advocacy of and support for buses knows no bounds, referred to the survey.

The chairman of Passenger Focus also commented that while overall passenger satisfaction across the surveyed areas was at a consistently high level, bus passengers rated almost all other specific journey factors lower, with wide disparities in ratings of value for money not only between different areas but between different operators and services in the same area.

The Library briefing pack includes a section on the policy of the coalition Government. It points out that the coalition agreement made one mention of bus services when it stated that the Government would,

“encourage joint working between bus operators and local authorities”.

That is a little vague—no doubt because the Conservatives in opposition had proposed regulation and the introduction of quality contracts, whereas the Liberal Democrats stated in their manifesto that they would,

“give councils greater powers to regulate bus services according to community needs, meaning local people get a real say over routes and fares”.

[Lord Snape]

Will my noble friend tell the House how many quality contracts were made during the period of office of the previous Labour Government?

[Lord Rosser]

As I understand it, there were no quality contracts. The legislation was amended in 2008 because the previous legislation has made it an enormous mountain to climb to implement quality contracts. The noble Lord himself made reference to the local transport authorities that are currently seeking to pursue quality contracts in accordance with the legislation.

At Second Reading in the House of Commons of what became the Local Transport Act 2008, the Liberal Democrats said:

“The concept of having partnerships and contracts is right”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/3/08; col. 220.]

[Lord Bradshaw]

Having twice been baited on the subject, I will say that I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that quality contracts are quite unnecessary if co-operation between the local authority and the bus operator is good. That is why I started with the business about implementing Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, which was passed by his Government.

[Lord Rosser]

I note what the noble Lord said, but I am quoting from what his party said in the House of Commons—that the concept of having partnerships and contracts was right. If he is now saying that he does not agree with the statement made by his own party in opposition, of course he is welcome to do so. It is clear that on the issue of contracts, the Conservative Party view has prevailed and the Liberal Democrats have shifted their ground, even though the Minister responsible for the bus industry is a Liberal Democrat.

The bus industry, certainly outside London, is facing a difficult time. The cut in local transport funding of some 28% has led to local authorities cutting back on support for local bus services, and subsidies paid direct to bus companies have also been cut by the Government by one-fifth. In some rural areas, council-supported services make up nearly all the network, yet many of those who use buses have no other means of transport. Cutting a bus route or bus services can cut an opportunity to take up employment or to stay on in education and go to college. That hardly seems consistent with the Government’s declared policy of making it easier to gain skills and take up employment.

We have already set out the significant tranche of cuts to the Department for Transport’s budget that we would have accepted to meet our own commitment to halve the deficit in this Parliament. However, unlike this Government, we would have protected support for local bus services. While the level of financial support from government is very important, it is not the only factor that affects the availability and affordability of local bus services. The ability of local transport authorities to play a role on behalf of passengers, and potential passengers, matters as well.

In government, we legislated to enable transport authorities to, in effect, reregulate buses through the use of quality partnerships, which have led to very successful agreements in some areas, or quality contracts. But the experience of some of the ITAs that have begun to use these powers, particularly in relation to quality contracts, suggests that we did not go far enough. Efforts to introduce quality contracts by integrated transport authorities have been met with specific threats by one of our major national bus companies to close bus depots and sack drivers.

We need measures, which are not currently available, that would provide some protection to enable transport authorities that want to go down the road of quality contracts to do so without facing a long drawn-out and potentially costly process, and even then still face the prospect of being frustrated for no good reason. It should be for the transport authorities, which have a rather wider role and responsibility for the provision of transport within their areas than the bus companies, to decide whether a quality partnership or a quality contract will best deliver their goals and policy objectives on behalf of those whom they represent, and they should not be impeded in achieving either the quality partnership or a quality contract by actions designed to frustrate by either bus companies or indeed government—which I will come on to.

As the recent House of Commons Transport Select Committee report said, in a fairly lengthy but important quote:

“The Quality Contract option is a legitimate one for a local authority to choose. It must also be seen as credible in order to enable the local authorities to apply pressure in cases where competition or partnerships are not working satisfactorily. Local bus operators should not seek to frustrate moves towards a Quality Contract. That no local authority has implemented a Quality Contract more than a decade after the provisions were introduced suggests that there are significant hurdles to overcome, particularly for the first local authority to go down this route. The legislation itself, as amended by the Local Transport Act 2008, seems satisfactory but the process is still lengthy and risky”.

The Select Committee went on to say:

“We recommend that the Government makes the Better Bus Areas funding available, in principle, to support Quality Contracts as well as partnership schemes”.

However, that is precisely what the Government are not doing. The Minister responsible for buses has decided to exclude transport authorities that pursue quality contracts from accessing the Government’s better bus areas fund, to which the Government are implementing the commitment to devolve bus subsidies. The various strands of bus funding should be brought together in a single pot, which could then come under the democratic control of transport authorities.

However, the Government’s decision on access to the better bus areas fund is obviously designed to make it financially difficult, if not impossible, for local transport authorities that wish to go down the road of quality contracts to do so. How can the Government say that they are in favour of devolving powers and yet be prepared to penalise those authorities that decide they wish to pursue tendering, which they are entitled to do under the law? Tendering as an option is not such a radical idea. It is commonplace in much of Europe as well as in London, where a Conservative mayor has not shown any enthusiasm for dismantling the system. In fact, some of the operators opposed to quality contracts in this country are subsidiaries of wider groups that regularly bid for and secure contracts in Europe.

[Lord Snape]

Can my noble friend tell your Lordships’ House whether or not our party is now in favour of the London experience being spread countrywide, and has he cleared such a commitment with the shadow Chancellor?

[Lord Rosser]

I did not say that we are in favour of it being spread countrywide, full stop. What I have said is that it should be up to the transport authorities to decide whether to go down the road of quality partnerships or quality contracts, as they are entitled to under current legislation.

We need to protect the funding for bus services. We also need stronger transport authorities accountable for decisions over fares and services to the communities they serve, and with the confidence to decide freely what kind of relationship they want with bus operators. Unfortunately, the Government have decided to go in exactly the opposite direction.

16:50

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for tabling this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked why there is a 10-minute Back-Bench speaking limit. That was a decision of the Procedure Committee approved by your Lordships’ House. It is a shame that there are not more contributors, but perhaps on a Thursday afternoon we can understand why.

[Lord Snape]

Will the Minister then use his enormous influence to see that when there is next a 90-minute debate and there are only a few of us, we can take 90 minutes instead of gabbling through everything in 10?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that noble Lords have been challenging enough in the debate so far without it being extended.

Buses play a vital role in our economy. Sixty-three per cent of all public transport trips are made on local buses, a total of 2.3 billion bus journeys in 2010-11. The bus is essential for many people to get to work and education and to visit doctors and hospitals. For many, the bus is a lifeline and, without it, they would not be able to socialise. More than half of those who rely on the bus outside London do not have access to a car.

As many noble Lords have pointed out, customer satisfaction with their bus journeys is high, with 85% of passengers being satisfied with their service. The under-21s make up a third of bus passengers and use among the over-60s is increasing as a result of the national concessionary pass. A recent study by the University of Leeds has reinforced the importance of buses to a healthy and growing economy. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for his positive comments about the bus industry.

The Government remain committed to improving bus services, and expenditure on buses reflects this. This year, the Government will spend around £1 billion on the concessionary travel entitlement and £350 million in direct subsidy to bus operators in England. Another £200 million has been allocated to funding major bus projects in the past year, including improvement schemes in Bristol and Manchester.

In March, we provided £70 million through the better bus area fund to deliver improvements in 24 local authorities, £31 million to invest in low-carbon buses and the second instalment of a £20 million package to support community transport. Many bus improvement schemes have also been funded as part of the Government’s £600 million local sustainable transport fund. All this funding demonstrates how important the Government consider bus services to be.

However, the Government also recognise that improvements can and must be made, so earlier this year they outlined their plans for buses in a document entitled, Green Light for Better Buses. The proposals include reforming bus subsidy, improving competition, improving local authority capability in tendering, incentivising partnership working and multi-operator ticketing, and making bus information and ticketing easier to access for all, particularly young people. Here, I pay tribute to the work of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker, a Minister who is absolutely committed to public transport.

There is no doubt that we are operating in challenging economic times, and this is no different for bus operators. The Government want to ensure that the bus market is still attractive to operators, both large and small, by ensuring that funding is allocated in the fairest way while giving the best value for money to taxpayers. However, we recognise the problems that are experienced by smaller operators.

The Government have recently launched a consultation on the future of the bus service operators’ grant, which is paid to bus operators—I shall say more about this in a moment. The grant is currently paid direct to bus operators in a fairly blunt and untargeted way that is related to fuel consumption. Some local authorities have told us that they can make the bus subsidy deliver better value for money by working in partnership with their bus operators to grow the bus market. That is what the better bus areas are intended to do, and the available top-up fund will give them an additional incentive to innovate.

The better bus area policy relies strongly on partnership with commercial bus operators rather than on contractual relationships. Thus, better bus areas are quite distinct from quality contract schemes where all bus services would be tendered and the bus service operators’ grant automatically devolved to local authorities. The characteristics of local bus markets vary, so different solutions will be appropriate in different local areas. The Government believe that it is for local authorities to decide which route they should pursue.

The Government are committed to protecting the national bus travel concession, which is of huge benefit to around 11 million people, allowing free off-peak travel anywhere in England. This generous concession provides older and disabled people with greater freedom, independence and a lifeline to their community. It enables access to facilities in and beyond their local area and helps these people to keep in touch with family and friends. It can also bring benefits to the wider economy.

There is no statutory obligation to provide discounted-price travel to young people but many commercial and publicly funded reductions are available. I have been encouraged to see that in Norfolk, prompted by the council’s successful bid to the better bus area fund last year, several local bus operators are working in partnership with the county council to introduce a reduced bus fare for 16 to 19 year-olds. I welcome this initiative and hope to see more like it.

I will try to answer as many questions as possible. Obviously, I will write where I am unable to do so. Both the noble Lord, Lord Snape, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked me about the Traffic Management Act. Local councils and TfL already have powers to enforce moving traffic conventions, including bus lanes, cycle lanes, yellow box junctions, “no U-turns” and “no entry” signs, et cetera. Authorities outside London that have taken civil enforcement powers can enforce moving traffic conventions in bus lanes. Over 80% of authorities already have these powers. The Government support the remainder taking those powers on.

We recognise that there is a strong desire from some local authorities outside London to have all the extra powers in Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act to enforce all types of moving traffic offences, as those in London do. We are considering this, but Ministers want to be sure of the traffic benefits of extending these powers outside London and have therefore written to Nottingham and Sheffield as part of the city deals process, proposing some projects to analyse the traffic benefits of implanting Part 6 in these regions.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about funding a quality contract through a better bus area. Areas intending to pursue a quality contract scheme may also choose to pursue a better bus area. However, we would need to understand how this would work, both with and without a quality contract. Moreover, BBAs are strongly based on a consensual approach with bus operators. Again, we need to understand how this would work in a quality contract area where the bus operators could easily change. This is a consultation and we are interested to know whether and how this could work.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the cost of bus fares and suggested that they are too high and rising. Overall, fares were the same level in March 2011 as in March 2010, with a 2% decrease in non-metropolitan areas and increases of 0.9% in metropolitan areas and 1.4% in London. Across the country, fares can be quite variable, with a wide range of ticket types.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, talked about the problems of young people and high fares. Of course, bus fares can be a high proportion of a young person’s income. The noble Lord talked about the problems of job hunting and suggested that we needed a simpler process for young unemployed people to claim their travel expenses. The Department for Work and Pensions provides a range of support with travel costs for the unemployed through Jobcentre Plus, which is best placed to decide who needs support with transport costs.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked what was being done to reduce antisocial behaviour on public transport. I recently experienced an extremely distressing incident on a train, so I know how much of a problem this is. A wide variety of people and organisations are involved in helping to reduce antisocial behaviour and to deal with it when it occurs. These may be transport operators, local authorities, local police and PTEs, Transport for London, town centre managers, and many others. They may deliver measures in partnership with or through others, such as voluntary organisations.

The department has convened a public transport crime liaison group, chaired by my honourable friend Norman Baker, bringing together passenger representative groups, police, local authorities and operators to hear about their work on reducing crime and to share best practice. I recognise that this is a serious problem.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the problem of increased fuel prices of 58% due to the decrease in BSOG. We are determined to bring down the deficit. BSOG must help to achieve that, and the 20% reduction did just that. We are now looking at making the remaining BSOG more efficient.

[Lord Snape]

How much has the deficit been increased or reduced by freezing fuel duty for motorists generally?

[Earl Attlee]

That is a rather wider question, and I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord on that.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about ring-fencing BSOG. It is vital that local authorities have flexibility to use funds to best effect. However, it is also important not to get turbulence in the bus market when changes take place as we reform the BSOG, so we will ring-fence BSOG for tendered buses for a transitional period.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked about BSOG in rural areas. There are no plans to cut BSOG total. BSOG for tendered services will be devolved to local transport authorities. There are lots of them in rural areas, and therefore more flexibility for local authorities best to support bus services as they see fit. Commercial BSOG outside BBAs will remain the same for now, but how we apply it will be reviewed later.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked how much the Competition Commission inquiry cost the taxpayer. I do not have the figure to hand, but I will write to him. He also asked about better bus area bids excluding population areas under 100,000. We have yet to issue guidance on the criteria for designating BBAs for devolved BSOG. However, we will be looking for proposals that can help to grow the economy and reduce carbon emissions. BBA 2012 was mainly aimed at large urban areas as being more able to meet the criteria.

The final point that I can address is whether there is any incentive for better bus speeds to take driver management systems, such as RIBAS, into account when bus systems are assessed. The criteria against which better bus area bids were judged included reduction in carbon emissions, which indirectly would offer a potential incentive for operators to use driver management systems such as RIBAS, given their positive impact on fuel efficiency and carbon emissions. The long-term goal of decoupling bus subsidy from fuel consumption will incentivise greater fuel efficiency within bus service operator fleets, which, in turn, should incentivise the use of driver management systems.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The Minister has several times referred to subsidy to bus operators in respect of things such as concessionary fares. That is a subsidy to the passenger; it is not a subsidy to the bus industry.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept my noble friend’s point.

The Government believe in buses. The vision is for a better bus with more of the attributes passengers want: more punctual, interconnected services, an even greener and more fully wheelchair-accessible fleet and the wide availability of smart ticketing. A more attractive, more competitive, greener bus network will encourage more people on to buses, create growth and cut carbon.

House adjourned at 5.04 pm.