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Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
1. What discussions he has had on new investment in energy infrastructure in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
Wales is already attracting significant investment in new energy infrastructure. From Hitachi’s investment in new nuclear to promising marine energy projects such as the Skerries tidal stream array, Wales is proving that it can play a leading role in meeting our country’s energy needs.
Bob Blackman
It is good news that Wales is getting energy infrastructure, but what will my hon. Friend do to ensure that businesses and consumers can access it?
Stephen Crabb
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. This country needs more than £100 billion of new energy infrastructure investment in the next eight years. We at the Wales Office are determined that Welsh businesses should be at the forefront of those opportunities in Wales, which is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will host an energy summit to explore with Welsh businesses the opportunities that this new investment will afford.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Will the Minister assure the House that when an assessment is made of competing means of transmission, full consideration will be given to the full costs, including those to tourism and outdoor pursuit industries?
Stephen Crabb
I recognise the important point made by the hon. Gentleman and I followed the debate secured by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) yesterday evening on that very issue. It is clearly important that the distribution transmission companies take a view of all the costs involved, but there is concern that when we make these transmission projects more expensive—through, for example, underground cabling—the cost is ultimately borne by households who pay energy bills.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Anaerobic digestion is an important player in energy production in Wales. There appears to have been a problem in the feed-in tariff order scheme for anaerobic digestion of less than 500 kW, which could affect investment in the technology. Will the Minister work with the ministerial team in the Department of Energy and Climate Change to rectify this problem?
Stephen Crabb
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. We are very aware of the issue. A discussion is taking place with officials and colleagues at DECC. They are in contact with the trade body for the developers of such projects, and I hope a solution will be found soon.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
2. What assessment he has made of the effect of recent increases in the cost of energy bills on living standards in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
The recent price increases announced by the big six are unwelcome, especially at this time, which is why we are legislating to force energy companies to put people on the lowest tariff that meets their preference. We are also helping to keep bills lower by increasing competition in the market and opening up the marketplace for new independent suppliers to challenge the dominance of the big six.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Last week a friend of mine who works with elderly residents in Ogmore visited four elderly residents in one day. All four would not put on their heating because they were frightened of the effect on them of rising fuel prices. They sat in the cold. Yesterday, it snowed in Ogmore. Is not this the time to call for a freeze on prices so that elderly people are not afraid that they will freeze in their homes?
Stephen Crabb
As I said, the increases in bills are unwelcome at this time and we all know from our communities the pressures that puts on vulnerable households, but I would say to the hon. Gentleman that, on the slogan of a price freeze for energy, the Leader of the Opposition knows full well that that is not deliverable. We know from Labour’s track record in government that it was intensely relaxed about gas prices doubling, electricity prices going up by more than 50% and increasing fuel tax 12 times. It was too relaxed and complacent.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the biggest impacts on the cost of energy is the high cost of petrol and diesel, and that the fuel duty freeze will mean that petrol and fuel duty will be 13p cheaper in tax terms and will help the cost of living enormously in Wales and across the country?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend is exactly right. It is of particular benefit in rural Welsh areas, where average incomes are lower. By the end of this Parliament, average fuel prices will not be 13p per litre lower; they will be more than 20p per litre lower than under the previous Government’s plan.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
13. A report by the CAB last week showed that over the past three years energy bills have increased eight times more than earnings. Does the Secretary of State not share the concern that Wales has the highest energy bills of anywhere in the UK? If he does, why does he not tackle that far more urgently?
Stephen Crabb
Wales has some of the highest energy prices, but regional variations are partly due to higher transmission costs—an important component of an energy bill. That brings us back to the earlier question about wanting more expensive transmission projects in Wales, not cheaper ones. We are very aware of the pressure on households in Wales because of the energy prices increase, and we are not complacent about that.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
A particular concern in rural areas such as Ceredigion is the crippling price of domestic oil. What work will my hon. Friend do, including with the Department of Energy and Climate Change, to support oil syndicates and oil clubs and encourage bulk purchasing to reduce price?
Stephen Crabb
The collective purchasing power of communities and groups of buyers of oil might have a role in bringing down prices for consumers in rural areas. We are seeing that with switching as well. My colleagues at the Department of Energy and Climate Change are encouraging community groups to come together to strike collective switching agreements with companies to help bring down prices.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
With sky-high energy bills in Wales, which are higher than anywhere else, and a Tory-aligned think-tank saying that people are maxed out on personal debt—there are about 250,000 of them in Wales—does the Minister agree with the planning Minister, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), that his party is the party of the rich and that its members are seen as aliens and heartless extremists?
Stephen Crabb
The right hon. Gentleman is a member of a party about which one of his colleagues said it was “intensely relaxed” about people becoming filthy rich. It was intensely relaxed about many families on low incomes being pushed into greater household debt. We do not take that approach; we are trying to bring down household debt.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the Labour party claims to be concerned about the cost of living in Wales, yet on the one cost it can control, the council tax, it has failed miserably to support Welsh constituents?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If Opposition Members were genuinely concerned about tackling the cost of living in Wales they would be hammering on the door of their Labour colleagues in the Welsh Government in Cardiff and demanding that they freeze council tax bills, as we have for households in England.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Wales has seen the sharpest increase in the number of people falling behind with their energy fuel bills—up 24% from 68,000 two years ago to an alarming 85,000 households now in arrears. With SSE’s massive 8% price hike kicking in last Friday, will the Minister explain why he thinks it is not possible to deliver an energy freeze and to break up the six big energy companies to deliver a fairer system for the people of Wales?
Stephen Crabb
The uncompetitive big six were of course created by the previous Labour Government. We are opening up the marketplace to seven new independent suppliers, challenging the dominance of the big six and increasing competition in the marketplace, which will deliver lower bills for households in Wales.
Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
3. What plans he has to encourage growth in the small and medium-sized enterprise sector in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Small and medium-sized enterprises are vital to the economy in Wales and, indeed, the UK as a whole. That is why we have launched the Business is Great campaign, focusing on how we can further support these thriving businesses.
Mr Bellingham
I agree with the Secretary of State that small businesses in the Principality and across the country are the lifeblood of the economy. Considerable moves have been made already on the tax front and in lifting burdensome regulations. What more can he do, working with the Welsh Government, further to enhance wealth creation and the job-generating power of small businesses?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that SMEs are the backbone of the Welsh economy, and we are keen to do all we can to encourage them. That is why we have initiated the StartUp loans scheme, which has already lent about £50 million to more than 9,000 new businesses. With effect from this October, working with the Welsh Government, we have announced the scheme’s roll-out to Wales, so that any Welsh entrepreneur with a good idea can come forward and apply for a loan.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
The Secretary of State will know that SMEs in Dwyfor Meirionnydd are doing their best to thrive in the face of coalition austerity, as he visited the first ever Meirionnydd day the week before last. I thank him for attending it. However, the economic situation outside London is far different from down here, so why not make the National Insurance Contributions Bill, which is currently going through the House, apply everywhere outside London and south-east England, thereby mirroring a move in the Government’s emergency Budget of 2010?
Mr Jones
I did, indeed, enjoy my visit to the Meirionnydd day that the right hon. Gentleman held, and I was very impressed by the positive attitude of SMEs from his constituency. He will know that the national insurance contributions employment allowance will benefit 35,000 businesses across Wales by a total of £50 million, with 20,000 of those businesses being taken out employer national insurance contributions altogether, which I would have thought his constituents welcomed.
Mr Llwyd
Welsh exports were down by just under £1 billion over the past 12 months, which is the biggest fall in any UK nation or English region. What discussions is the Secretary of State having with the Chancellor to ensure that the Welsh producing economy, which is comprised mainly of SMEs, is not paying the price for a growing service and finance economy centred on London and the south-east?
Mr Jones
We are anxious to ensure that as many SMEs as possible export. That is a good reason for Welsh SMEs to utilise the services of UK Trade & Investment. UKTI has global reach and is available to every business, including those in Wales. I encourage the right hon. Gentleman to encourage his constituents to seek the services it offers.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The extension of the StartUp loans scheme to Wales is fantastic news for budding entrepreneurs across the nation. Will the Secretary of State join me in calling on the enterprise agencies, such as Business in Focus, which serves the Vale of Glamorgan, to co-ordinate their activities in a campaign to get more people to start their own businesses?
Mr Jones
Indeed; we need more entrepreneurs in Wales to set up their own businesses. The roll-out of the StartUp loans scheme to Wales is extremely good news. It was done in co-operation with the Welsh Government and I was pleased to see their entirely positive attitude to it.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Swansea accepts that Hull, coming out of the shadows, not Swansea, continuing to shine, was named the UK city of culture for 2017. Does the Secretary of State agree that to maximise the growth of SMEs, we need to keep the momentum of the bid going, maximise the opportunity of the Dylan Thomas centenary and confirm Swansea as the city of culture of Wales?
Mr Jones
I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. While I congratulate Hull, I was bitterly disappointed that Swansea did not get the accolade of city of culture. Nevertheless, Swansea’s bid was an extremely good one and the networks that were built up can form a good platform for future enterprises. I agree that the Dylan Thomas centenary is a massive opportunity for Swansea.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
4. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on the Welsh economy of upgrading the M4 motorway.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
6. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on Wales of upgrading the M4 motorway.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Upgrading the M4 is a key priority for the Government and for businesses in Wales. That is why we are enabling the Welsh Government to use their existing limited borrowing powers to begin work on upgrading the motorway as soon as possible.
Bill Wiggin
Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will continue to persuade his colleagues in the Welsh Government to work hard to ensure that there are improvements to the M4 around Newport?
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend is entirely right. That infrastructure improvement has long been called for, particularly by the CBI. An upgrade is grossly overdue. We have given the Welsh Assembly Government the borrowing powers that they need. We hope and expect that they will proceed with the upgrade as quickly as possible.
Andrew Selous
Is it the case that although funding to upgrade the M4 around Newport may not have been available in the past, the Government’s recent agreement to increase the borrowing powers of the Welsh Government means that the upgrade can now go ahead?
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
One of my earliest memories is cramming into the back of my dad’s Ford Anglia in 1966 with my two sisters and my brother, and crossing the original M4 Severn crossing. Forty-seven years later, it costs £6.20 for a car, £12.40 for a van and £18.60 for a heavy goods vehicle. The second Severn crossing was built 17 years ago. Is it not time that we improved the Welsh economy by getting rid of those burdensome tolls?
Mr Jones
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the tolls are a major impediment to businesses in south Wales. Having said that, these are important pieces of infrastructure that assist the south Wales economy immensely. As he will know, the franchise ends in 2017-18. At that time, we will look at ways to reduce the cost of crossing the Severn.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
8. Businesses and commuters have given a warm welcome to the announcement about the M4 relief road that was made by the Prime Minister and his deputy. Given that, what does the Secretary of State make of the headline in the South Wales Evening Post on Monday, which suggested that the Liberal Democrats in Wales oppose that vital piece of infrastructure?
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
5. When he plans to bring forward legislative proposals to give the Welsh Government borrowing powers.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Our detailed response to the Silk Commission’s recommendations, which we published on Monday, confirmed that we will include proposals in a draft Wales Bill to give the Welsh Government borrowing powers. We will publish the draft Bill, for pre-legislative scrutiny, in the current parliamentary Session.
Susan Elan Jones
I welcome the fact that, after a year’s wait, we finally have a statement from the Secretary of State, but I would like to press him further, as he speaks of details. When will we know the basis on which the Welsh capital borrowing limits will be calculated? There is a precedent in the Scotland Act. Why will he not just say that he will follow that?
Mr Jones
I make no apologies for ensuring that the proposal was properly scrutinised. The package we announced is good for Wales and I am glad that it was welcomed by the Welsh Government, who will have new borrowing powers. The borrowing limit that will apply to those powers will be commensurate with the Welsh Government’s access to independent streams of funding to repay the borrowing they incur. The details will be placed on the face of the draft Bill when it is published.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
If the National Assembly for Wales is going to have borrowing powers, and if it is going to smell like a Parliament and look like a Parliament, is it not time that it became the National Parliament of Wales?
Mr Speaker
Order. Noisy and discordant conversations are taking place in the Chamber. I am sure I am not alone in wanting to hear the Secretary of State’s answer to the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant).
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
In Monday’s statement, the Secretary of State closely tied in borrowing powers with the income tax sharing arrangement between the UK and the Welsh Government. Will he confirm that the proposed sunset clause on the referendum has been dropped?
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
7. What steps the Government are taking to increase the number of people in Wales who earn a living wage.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
11. What steps the Government are taking to increase the number of people in Wales who earn a living wage.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
We support strong minimum wage legislation and rigorous enforcement as a way of protecting people on the lowest incomes. Decisions on wage rates above the minimum wage are for employers and employees to agree together.
Mr Hanson
According to a Barclays bank survey in my constituency, in the past year those earning £100,000 or more saw their spending power rise by 4.4%, while those on less than £15,000 saw their spending power fall by 5.6%. Does the Minister think that that has anything to do with Government policy? Will he work towards a minimum wage to help the 700,000 people in Wales who currently earn less than the living wage?
Stephen Crabb
I gently point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the vast majority of the decline in real wage values in his constituency and throughout Wales occurred in the last three years of the Labour Government. We are working incredibly hard to bring new jobs and investment to constituencies such as the right hon. Gentleman’s. If he is saying that those jobs are not welcome unless they pay more than £7.60 an hour, he needs to make that clear, but it would be a significant barrier to inward investment.
Chris Ruane
Welsh wages have fallen in 40 of the 41 months since the Government came to power in 2010. By the next election, Welsh workers will be £6,000 worse off than they were in 2010. What is the Minister doing to help Welsh workers improve their living standards?
Stephen Crabb
The best way to achieve better living standards for people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and throughout Wales is to tackle our problems head on, to take the responsible decisions and to do everything we can to encourage businesses to create jobs. That is why unemployment is falling in his constituency when it increased so rapidly under last five years of the Labour Government.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
Surely the best way to raise living standards in Wales is to bear down on economic inactivity in Wales. Will my hon. Friend share with the House what has happened to economic inactivity since the 2010 election?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend is quite right: economic inactivity and worklessness have been a curse on Wales for too long. Under the last Labour Government, economic inactivity rates averaged around 21%; under this Government they are down to around 21%. [Interruption.] We are not complacent: we want to go further with improving the situation.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
14. In some parts of Cynon Valley, over half the children are living in poverty. Why?
Stephen Crabb
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for that question. I visited her constituency and I am well aware of the deep-seated, long-entrenched problems there. I have been to the jobcentre in Aberdare and seen how hard the excellent team are working to tackle long-term unemployment, but there are no quick fixes. What we are doing, with the Work programme and our other efforts through the Department for Work and Pensions, is trying to bear down on worklessness and get more people into jobs.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
9. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on the Welsh economy of varying the current level of taxation in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The power to vary tax is an important way of driving economic growth and ensuring that Governments are accountable for the way they spend money. We will devolve certain taxes to the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government and provide for a referendum, so that people in Wales can decide whether some of their income tax should be devolved, as in Scotland.
Karl MᶜCartney
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Could he explain what role devolving stamp duty land tax will play in stimulating the housing market in Wales, including in rural places such as Llanbedr Pont Steffan? Does he agree that the expansion of the Help to Buy scheme—
Mr Speaker
Order. Unfortunately the question has got nothing to do with the current level of taxation in Wales. [Interruption.] Come on, finish it off.
Karl MᶜCartney
Will the scheme help not only aspiring home owners in Wales, but my constituents in Lincoln?
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
What substantive planning is the Secretary of State doing for the Welsh economy to take full advantage of the benefits that Scottish independence will bring to these islands in the coming years? Surely tax-varying powers are the minimum requirement in Wales, so that it, too, will benefit in the way that Scotland will benefit in the years to come.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
On Monday, we heard in this House the Secretary of State commit his party to cutting a penny off income tax for taxpayers in Wales, including millionaires. I am sure he did not pluck that figure out of thin air; I am sure he consulted the Treasury. Will he therefore tell us what the precise cost to the Welsh budget will be of his proposed tax cut?
Mr Jones
The point I made was that a cut of one penny in the pound would do a tremendous amount to stimulate the Welsh economy. Let me repeat what I said to the hon. Gentleman on Monday. We in the Conservative party are ambitious for the people of Wales. We want to see the Welsh economy growing; he wants a Welsh economy reliant on handouts. That is the difference between our parties.
Owen Smith
No, the difference is that I want some answers. I assume from the Secretary of State’s answer that he did not consult the Chancellor and does not know how much the proposal will cost the Welsh budget, so let me help him out. The static effect is £200 million, or the equivalent of 5,000 teachers in Wales, so will he tell us which services he would propose cutting to pay for that tax pledge?
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman clearly does not get it. The issue of whether income tax should be devolved will be in the hands of the Welsh people. It will be up to the Welsh Assembly Government to make the decision to trigger that referendum. For our part, we want them to trigger that referendum, to call it, to elect for a lower rate of tax and to give Wales the competitive edge that so far it lacks under the Labour Welsh Assembly Government.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
10. What assessment he has made of the potential economic effect of the proposed new prison in north Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)
Our £250 million investment in a new prison in north Wales will be a significant driver for growth in the local economy and provide around 1,000 jobs. The prison is expected to contribute £23 million a year to the regional economy.
Stephen Mosley
Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fact that the prison will allow prisoners from north Wales and Cheshire to live closer to their families and maintain vital links with them, thus helping rehabilitation?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Aside from the important economic benefits to Wales of the new prison, importantly it will help families stay in closer touch with prisoners, which has been proven time and again to be a vital factor in whether people reduce their offending behaviour when they are out of prison.
Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
Good ideas have many parents, and I am sitting alongside two of them in the case of the prison in Wrexham. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to make sure that, as a new large prison, it contains units that can deal with all the different types of offenders who will need to be addressed to produce the best rehabilitative effect, and that there are proper work facilities for prisoners under that regime.
Stephen Crabb
I thank my hon. Friend. Last week, I saw a great example of a large and diverse prison—Parc prison in Bridgend—which shows just how effectively different categories of prisoners can be brought together and offending behaviour can be tackled. We have exactly the same aspiration for the new prison in north Wales.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 20 November.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Warrant Officer Ian Fisher of 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment, who was killed on operations in Afghanistan on Tuesday 5 November. It is clear from the tributes paid that he was a professional and well respected soldier who made a huge contribution to the Army over many years on a number of operational tours. Our thoughts and our condolences should be with his family and his friends.
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Steve Brine
I am sure every Member will want to associate themselves with the Prime Minister’s tribute—a reminder that in this season of remembrance we will in faith always remember their service to our country.
MPs from across the House will have grave concerns about the nightmare unfolding at the Co-operative bank. Does the Prime Minister share my sense of disbelief that a person such as Reverend Flowers, responsible as he was for such large sums of our constituents’ money, was ever appointed to the position of chairman? What can my right hon. Friend now do to find out how on earth that happened?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Constituencies across the House will have people who hold Co-op bonds who are very worried about what will happen to their investment. Let me be clear that the first priority is to safeguard this bank—and to make sure that it is safeguarded without using taxpayers’ money. That must be the priority. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be discussing with the regulators what is the appropriate form of inquiry to get to the bottom of what went wrong, but there are clearly a lot of questions that have to be answered. Why was Reverend Flowers judged suitable to be chairman of a bank, and why were alarm bells not rung earlier, particularly by those who knew? In the coming days, it will be important for anyone who has information to stand up and provide it to the authorities.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Warrant Officer Ian Fisher of 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment. He died serving his country, and all our thoughts are with his family and friends.
Can the Prime Minister tell us how his campaign to save the Chipping Norton children’s centre is going?
The Prime Minister
I support children’s centres across the whole of the country. The fact is that, in spite of very difficult decisions that have to be made right across the country, the number of children’s centres has reduced by around 1%. Like all Members of Parliament, I fight very hard for services in my constituency.
Edward Miliband
The Conservatives are going round saying that children’s centres are safe and there is no threat to them. Things are so bad that the Prime Minister has even signed a petition in his own area to save his local children’s centre. Can he clarify: is the petition addressed to his local Tory council, or is he taking it right to the top?
The Prime Minister
More people are using children’s centres than ever before in our country. The right hon. Gentleman does not want to give the figures, but there are 3,000 children’s centres. This Government can hold their head up high, because we are increasing the amount of money that is going to local councils for children’s centres. That is what is happening under this Government.
Edward Miliband
We all wish the right hon. Gentleman luck in his fight as a local Member of Parliament. Imagine what he could achieve if he were Prime Minister of the country!
I think that we have established the Prime Minister’s double standards in Oxfordshire. Let us take another example. In Tory Essex—[Interruption.] I know that the Tories do not care about children’s centres, but they should hush down a bit and listen. In Tory Essex, they propose to close 11 centres and downgrade 37, whose opening hours will fall from 50 a week to as few as five. So there will be fewer centres, fewer staff and fewer hours. How is that doing what the Prime Minister promised to do before the election, which was to protect and improve Sure Start?
The Prime Minister
Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman what is happening to child care under this Government. For the first time ever, there are 15 hours a week of child care for every three and four-year-old in the country. That never happened under Labour. For the first time, under this Government, there are free child care hours for every disadvantaged two-year-old in the country. That never happened under Labour. Also, to come, there will be tax-free child care under this Government. That never happened under Labour. And the child tax credit has been upgraded by £420 under this Government. That is what is happening, but let me be clear: there is one policy that we will not adopt, and that is Labour’s policy of funding more hours through its bank levy. I will tell you why: Labour has already spent the bank levy 10 times over. The youth jobs guarantee, VAT cuts, more capital spending—Mr Speaker, that is not a policy; it is a night out with Reverend Flowers.
Edward Miliband
Let us talk about the people the Prime Minister associates with—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Let the House calm down. I am concerned, as always, about Back Benchers, and Back Benchers who want to speak should be accommodated, so calm down and let us move on.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister obviously wants to talk about who he associates with. He has taken nearly £5 million from Michael Spencer, whose company was found to be rigging LIBOR; he has a party chairman who operated a company under a false name and was investigated for fraud; he has taken millions from tax exiles and tax avoiders; his party has never paid back the money from Asil Nadir—and they are just the people I can talk about in this House. Did not the planning Minister have it right yesterday, when he said
“the single biggest problem the Conservative party faces is being seen as the party of the rich”?
The Prime Minister
How extraordinary that, today of all days, the right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about the people he associates with and takes money from, because what we can now see is that this bank, driven into the wall by this chairman, has been giving soft loans to the Labour party, facilities to the Labour party, donations to the Labour party, has trooped in and out of Downing street under Labour, and is still advising the leader of the Labour party—and yet now we know that Labour knew about his past all along. Why did Labour do nothing to bring to the attention of the authorities this man who has broken a bank?
Edward Miliband
I think we can take it from that answer that the Prime Minister does not want to talk about his planning Minister. Where is the planning Minister? Where is he today? Only last January, the Prime Minister was praising him to the rafters, saying that he was leading the debate. I think that the House should hear more from him. This is what he says about the Tory party: that it stands for people who
“work for private equity”
and
“make a ton of money.”
He is right, isn’t he?
The Prime Minister
We have finally found a public inquiry that the right hon. Gentleman does not want. He comes to the House and asks for inquiry after inquiry into the culture and practices of this and that, but when it comes to the Co-op bank, he is absolutely frightened of it.
This is also an interesting week in which to talk about people on the Front Bench. This week, the right hon. Gentleman referred to his own shadow Chancellor as a “nightmare”. I am sorry; I hate to say “I told you so”, but I have been saying that for three years. However, that is not the most interesting thing in this fascinating exchange of e-mails. Labour’s head of strategy—yes, they do actually have one—replied to the shadow Chancellor:
“When did built to last become a part of our thing?”
I agree. Their policies are not built to last; they are built to self-destruct in about five seconds.
Edward Miliband
What the Prime Minister has shown comprehensively today is that he has no answers on the cost of living crisis facing families up and down the country. That is the truth and his close friend the planning Minister is right. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must calm down. Questions will be heard, however long it takes; it is very simple.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister’s close friend the planning Minister is right. He says this: there are many people who “don’t like” the Tory party and “don’t trust” its motives, and he says that the Prime Minister is not the man to reach them. What he is really saying is that this Prime Minister is a loser.
The Prime Minister
What this proves is the right hon. Gentleman cannot ask about the economy because it is growing, he cannot ask about the deficit because it is falling, he cannot ask about the number of people in work because that is rising, and he cannot even ask about banking because he is mired in his own banking scandal. [Interruption.] What we have learned in the last fortnight is that he is too—[Interruption.]
The Prime Minister
What we have learned in the last fortnight is that the right hon. Gentleman is too weak to stand up to his paymasters in the trade unions, too weak to stand up to his bankers and too weak to stand up to his shadow Chancellor. We all know that it would be a nightmare, and that is why we are dedicated to making sure the British people do not have to live through it.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
Q2. My right hon. Friend will recall visiting the London Gateway port in Thurrock, which is now open for business, but is he as appalled as I am to hear that Unite is picketing the potential clients of that port and encouraging its sister unions to boycott any ship that docks there? Is that not more evidence that Unite’s bully-boy tactics cost jobs, not save them?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have visited the London Gateway port and it is one of the most compelling things I have seen in recent years about Britain’s industrial renaissance. It is an extraordinary investment that is going to be of huge benefit, bringing about 12,000 direct and indirect jobs. She is absolutely right about the dangers of union intimidation and bully-boy tactics. That is why it is important that we have a review and, frankly, it is important that both Unite and the Labour party take part in that review.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I am sure the Prime Minister will agree that the victims of terrorism deserve not just words of sympathy but our full support and help and must be at the core of any process dealing with the past in Northern Ireland. Given the very worrying statement by the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland overnight, made on his own account and his own behalf and without consultation, does the Prime Minister agree there can be no question of an amnesty for any terrorist atrocities and crimes and that all victims of terrorism deserve truth and justice?
The Prime Minister
First, let me agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, which is that the words of the Northern Ireland Attorney-General are very much his own words and not made at the behest of anybody else. I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government have no plans to legislate for an amnesty for crimes that were committed during the troubles. As he knows, Richard Haass is currently consulting all the Northern Ireland parties on issues from the past as well as parades and flags, and I think that is the right forum in which to discuss these issues.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Q3. General Synod is meeting today and hopefully will find a way to enable women as soon as possible to be consecrated as bishops in the Church of England. If this is successful, will my right hon. Friend and the Government support amendments to the Bishops Act to ensure that women bishops can be admitted to the House of Lords as soon as possible rather than new women bishops having to queue up behind every existing diocesan bishop before we can see women bishops in Parliament?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend follows these matters closely and asks an extremely important question. I strongly support women bishops and hope the Church of England takes this key step to ensure its place as a modern Church in touch with our society. On the problem he raises—there is, of course, a seniority rule for bishops entering the House of Lords—the Government are ready to work with the Church to see how we can get women bishops into the House of Lords as soon as possible.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
Q4. Does the PM believe that the proposal from the Conservative Free Enterprise Group, supported by 42 of his own MPs, to put VAT on food and children’s clothes shows the true face of the party he leads?
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
I recently joined the Plough and Share credit union in my constituency. Credit unions can help to ensure that a lot of people do not have to go to payday lenders. What more can the Government do to support credit unions and encourage anybody with a few pounds to spare to put them into a credit union and take trade away from awful payday lenders?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue. The Government strongly support credit unions and think them a big part of the answer to the problems of payday lending. We have invested £38 million in credit unions and want to see them expand. Also, for the first time, we are properly regulating payday lending through the new regulator and are prepared to consider all the steps that can be taken to sort out this problem.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Q5. Today is universal children’s day, and the Prime Minister will be aware that Save the Children has highlighted the importance of early years in children’s development. Does he accept that the closure of three Sure Start centres a week is undermining the life chances of countless needy children?
The Prime Minister
I would challenge the hon. Gentleman’s figures. Whereas the pot of money for children’s centres was £2.3 billion in 2012-13, it is going up to £2.5 billion in 2014-15; there are 3,000 children’s centres open; and as I said, only about 1% have closed, so I think the Government have an excellent record on this front.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Q6. Now that the changes to Enfield’s A and E and maternity services have been given the green light—not by politicians and bureaucrats, as happened under the previous Government, but by local GPs—will the Prime Minister confirm that Enfield is getting increased primary care funding and that Chase Farm hospital is getting 24/7 access to urgent care?
The Prime Minister
First, let me pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who I know has worked hard on this difficult issue for his constituents. I understand that the Barnet, Enfield and Haringey strategy has been approved, and once it has been implemented Chase Farm hospital will provide a service giving access to GPs 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Enfield is also getting an increase in primary care funding. That is part of our plan of not cutting but expanding our NHS.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the good people of Hull on winning the city of culture 2017?
The Prime Minister
I am absolutely delighted to join the hon. Gentleman, and everyone in Hull and around the country, in celebrating this great award of the city of culture to Hull. It is a very exciting opportunity for Hull. We will be able to celebrate the birthplace of Wilberforce and the fact that Andrew Motion lectured there and Philip Larkin was the librarian. Slightly more incongruously, Peter Mandelson is the high sheriff—but every city has its burden to bear. And of course Hull has a fantastic record on popular music. I remember some years ago that great Housemartins album, “London 0 Hull 4”—so named because they said they were the fourth-best band in Hull. I am sure it will be a huge success for Hull and for Humberside more generally.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Q7. My constituency registered 600 new business start-ups last year, putting it among the top-10 places in the UK for new business growth. In preparation for small business Saturday on 7 December, will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss a review of business rates to encourage future growth, especially in London, where rateable values are very high and therefore rates are excessive?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to discuss this issue with my hon. Friend, who always stands up for business and enterprise. She refers to the number of start-ups. It is a real success story for our country, with an extra 400,000 businesses now operating. The Minister for Skills and Enterprise, my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), will shortly be telling the House about the 10,000th StartUp loan—a Government scheme that has got off the ground extremely quickly. Of course, there are concerns about business rates, and I am happy to discuss those with her, but may I take this opportunity to encourage all colleagues to take part in small business Saturday? It is a brilliant initiative that worked well in the United States and which will allow everyone to demonstrate how much they care about small businesses on our high streets.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister agree with his planning Minister that when modern Britain looks at the Conservative party it sees an old-fashioned monolith?
The Prime Minister
We have had some interesting interventions from Front Benchers past and present. I hope I can break records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty—we remember him—the former Labour Security Minister, saying this:
“Public desperate for PM in waiting who speaks for them—not Leader of Opposition indulging in partisan Westminster Village knockabout.”
So I would stay up with the tweets if you want to get on the right side of this one.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Q8. I refer the House to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests because I have recently returned from a delegation to Israel—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I want to hear the words of Dr Offord, and at the moment I cannot hear them.
Dr Offord
I will repeat my declaration, Mr Speaker. I refer the House to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as I have recently returned from a delegation to Israel and the Palestinian Authority with Conservative Friends of Israel. On the Israeli streets and in the corridors of power, Iran remains the No. 1 issue of concern. Earlier this week, French President Hollande visited Israel to discuss this matter with Israeli counterparts and appears to have clearly understood Israel’s legitimate concerns. When will our Prime Minister be visiting Israel, our close democratic ally in the region, to discuss the Iranian nuclear issue and other regional concerns?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I know that many people in his constituency care deeply about this issue and about the future of Israel. I will never forget the visit that I made as Leader of the Opposition, and I look forward to visiting, I hope, next year. I completely understand—
The Prime Minister
Of course. When I went to Israel, I visited not only occupied east Jerusalem but other places in Palestine as well, as is proper. I do understand the very real concern that Israelis have about the potential Iranian nuclear weapon. That is why I spoke to President Rouhani of Iran last night to make it clear that we want a good outcome to these talks, but it has got to be an outcome that takes Iran further away from a nuclear weapon rather than one that retains the status quo.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
While agreeing with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) that there should be no question of an amnesty, surely there is some merit in the proposal from the Northern Ireland Attorney-General that rather than incurring enormous expenditure pursuing crimes committed during the troubles decades ago—where the evidence is difficult, if not impossible, to establish—the justified grievances of victims, including widows of police officers and prison officers, should be addressed in other ways so that Northern Ireland can move on from its hideous past.
The Prime Minister
I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman’s views on this issue. He served in Northern Ireland and knows how important these issues are. I would make two points. First of all, I do think it is important to allow Richard Haass to do his work about parades, about flags and about dealing with the past. Clearly, the dealing with the past part is the most difficult of the three and the most difficult to unlock. The second point I would make is that we are all democrats who believe in the rule of law and believe in the independence of the police and prosecuting authorities, who should, if they are able to, be able to bring cases, and it is rather dangerous to think that you can put some sort of block on that. But of course we are all interested in ways in which people can reconcile and come to terms with the bloody past so that they can build a viable future and a shared future for Northern Ireland.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Q9. The people and the businesses of Suffolk are driving economic growth in the east of England, but they are increasingly fearful that the proposed A14 road toll will put Suffolk at a serious competitive disadvantage compared with other counties. Will my right hon. Friend seriously reconsider the current road toll proposal?
The Prime Minister
I will, and I know the Chancellor and the Transport Secretary will, listen carefully to the representations made by Suffolk MPs. I think we have all received representations. The important point is that we want new roads to be built, and we all know there are shortages in terms of the capital expenditure that we can bring forward. That is why the idea of having tolling for some new roads and new schemes is properly worth looking at, but we will listen carefully to colleagues and people in Suffolk, and businesses in Suffolk too.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
Bereaved parents coming to terms with their loss have no right to paid employment leave, which forces many of them to go back to work far too soon after the death of a child. Will the Prime Minister commit to amending the Employment Rights Act 1996 so as at last to give British parents the legal right and the time to grieve?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue, and I am happy to look at that, having suffered that experience myself. As a Member of Parliament, it is possible to take a little bit of time to stand back and come to terms with what has happened, because colleagues and the people who help us are ready to step in and do what they can. He has raised an important point; let me look at it and get back to him.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Q10. If he will rule out the removal of continuous at-sea nuclear deterrence for as long as he is in office.
The Prime Minister
As I told my hon. Friend when he last asked about this issue, if we want a proper, functioning deterrent, we need to have the best. That means a permanent, at-sea, submarine-based posture, and that is what a Conservative-only Government after the next election will deliver.
Dr Lewis
May I reassure my right hon. Friend that that excellent answer will remain on my website for as long as it takes for the pledge to be fulfilled? I notice that he used the words “Conservative-only Government”. Will he reassure the House that never again will Liberal Democrats be allowed to obstruct or delay the signing of the main gate contracts, and will he undertake to sign those contracts at the earliest possible opportunity?
The Prime Minister
I would say a couple of things to my hon. Friend. First, investment in our nuclear deterrent has not ceased. Actually, we are taking all the necessary steps to make that main gate decision possible. Also, we have had the alternative study, which I do not think came up with a convincing answer. I have to say, however, that I do not feel that I would satisfy him even if I gave him a nuclear submarine to park off the coast of his New Forest constituency. [Laughter.]
Mr Speaker
I rather fear that that is true, having known the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) for over 30 years.
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
Is the Prime Minister aware that, according to The Economist, Britain is now 159th lowest in the world in terms of business investment, just behind Mali, Paraguay and Guatemala? Will he therefore please tell the House when, under his esteemed leadership and that of his Chancellor, Britain can expect to catch up with Mali?
The Prime Minister
I can only conclude that the right hon. Gentleman, too, has been on a night out on the town with Rev. Flowers and that the mind-altering substances have taken effect. The fact is that in the first six months of this year, Britain has received more inward investment than any other country anywhere in the world.
Mr Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con)
Q11. Had my right hon. Friend and the Government taken the advice of the Opposition, what would have been the impact on the cost of fuel and what would have been the consequences for families?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Let us look at the cuts and freezes on fuel duty that we have made. Fuel duty would be 13p a litre higher under Labour’s plans than under our plans. To use a simple word, it would be a “nightmare”.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Prime Minister’s own Education Department has said that it has closed 578 children’s centres. How is that protecting Sure Start?
The Prime Minister
I gave the hon. Gentleman the figures, but I am afraid that he was unable to think on his feet and alter his question. The fact is that there are 3,000 such centres open, and only around 1% have closed.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
Q12. Aston Manor brewery in my constituency has invested £10 million and created lots of jobs in Tiverton. The OECD has upgraded its forecast for Britain while downgrading global forecasts. Does my right hon. Friend agree that reducing debt is the way to get the economy moving, rather than incurring more debt, as the party opposite would do?
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. The OECD forecast that came out this week shows a massive increase in the forecast for UK growth over the next couple of years. Of course, the Opposition do not want to talk about the economy. They told us that we were going to lose 1 million jobs, but we gained 1 million jobs. They told us growth would be choked off, but growth is growing in Britain. That is what is happening. The nightmare of the shadow Chancellor wants to talk about everything else. When it comes to debt, let me just remind him of this important point, which is directly relevant to the issue of debt. The former Mayor, Ken Livingstone, said this:
“Gordon Brown was borrowing £20 billion a year at the height of the boom in the first decade of this century in order to avoid having to increase taxes, because he wanted to increase public spending. It was an act of cowardice.”
That is, if you like, the “daymare”. [Interruption.] We are also hearing ranting from the nightmare.
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady has a right to put her question and to be heard when she does so, and that is what is going to happen.
Teresa Pearce
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The housing association that is landlord to some of the poorest people in my constituency recently voted its chief executive a non-contractual redundancy pay-off of £397,000. Will the Prime Minister join me in condemning the board’s action and asking for it to be repaid and invested in much-needed tenant services?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to look at the case the hon. Lady mentions, because some of these pay-offs really are completely unacceptable, and we need to make sure that local authorities properly take responsibility for stopping such high pay-offs. In terms of other parts of the economy, we are making sure that if people are re-employed, having taken these pay-offs, they have to pay back the money. I think that is vitally important, and perhaps it might apply in this case too.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a key element of the success of the plan for the Reserves would be if he joined with the Leader of the Opposition in inspiring employers to recognise that its success—because there is no plan B—is in the national interest?
The Prime Minister
I completely agree with my right hon. Friend. This is an important programme for the future of the country. Of course I understand hon. and right hon. Members’ concerns about this, but if we pass the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), that would simply stop us investing in and improving our Reserves, rather than changing the overall stance.
I have noticed that Labour put out a statement today, saying,
“We are not calling for the reforms to be reversed. We are not saying the reforms should be shelved.”
In that case, if they vote against the Government, one can only assume that it is naked opportunism.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
Can the Prime Minister explain to the House why he wanted to delete his pledge of no cuts to public services from the Conservative party website?
The Prime Minister
What we promised is that we would not cut the NHS, and we have not cut the NHS. We made it absolutely clear before the last election we would have to take difficult decisions, but it is because of those difficult decisions that the deficit is coming down, employment is growing, there are 1 million more people in work and our economy is doing better. If we followed the advice of the party opposite, we would have more spending, more borrowing, more debt—all of the things that got this country into the mess in the first place.
Petition
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
The petition relates to the future of St Raphael’s hospice in my constituency, which is being put at risk by the actions of the trustees of the charity that owns it, the Daughters of the Cross. The threat to the hospice, which is much loved and respected, has led staff, volunteers and the families of people who have used it to collect more than 5,900 signatures on a petition calling on the Vatican to intervene. Next week the chair of the hospice’s advisory committee, Dr Ron McKeran, and I will meet the Pope’s representative in this country, the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Mennini, to tell him about the petition and the more than 5,900 signatures collected from the public and urge him to use his good offices to secure a resolution to the dispute between the staff and volunteers and the charity.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the future of St Raphael’s hospice has been put in doubt by plans drawn up by Daughters of the Cross, a charity that funds the hospice, and by plans to sell off St Anthony’s hospital, which shares the site with the hospice and provides administrative and other support services worth up to a million pounds a year; further, that the sale of the hospital will break the funding link with the hospice and undermine the Christian character of the institution; further, that the Petitioners regret that rather than engaging with the staff and supporters of the hospice and hospital to find a mutually agreed solution to the future of both institutions, the charity has pursued a course of action that is not widely supported; and further, that the Trustees have failed to grasp that the success and respect in which both institutions are held is the result of a shared endeavour between themselves, the staff and volunteers and the local community who raise and donate the funds to pay for them.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons thanks Her Majesty’s Government for raising the matter with the relevant authorities in the Vatican; further, that the House urges the Papal authorities to intervene to protect the ethos of St Anthony’s hospital and its special relationship with St Raphael’s hospice; and further, that the House holds a debate on the future of St Raphael’s hospice and possible ways forward.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
[P001297]
Point of Order
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As you will have heard and as everyone else in the House heard, I asked a perfectly reasonable question that was based on clear documentary evidence, as I indicated. Is it parliamentary for the Prime Minister to respond by accusing another right hon. Member of sounding as if he has been taking mind-altering substances? Is that—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman will complete his point of order. The Prime Minister has indicated a readiness to respond, and that is how we will proceed. A bit of patience is all that is required.
Mr Meacher
I want to ask, Mr Speaker, whether it is parliamentary to use such an unjustifiable, rude and offensive phrase about another hon. Member.
The Prime Minister
I completely respect the right hon. Gentleman and the important question he asked, which I tried to answer with the point about inward investment into Britain. I made a light-hearted remark—if it caused any offence, I will happily withdraw it. I think it is very important that we can have a little bit of light-hearted banter, and a sense of humour on all sides.
Mr Speaker
I was looking for the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) and I am pleased to have found him. We will just wait for a moment so that an attentive House can hear him.
Gibraltar
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the unauthorised incursion of a Spanish naval vessel into British territorial waters at the entrance to Gibraltar harbour on 19 November 2013.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds)
On 19 and 20 November 2013, RV Ramon Margalef, a Spanish Government research vessel made an unlawful incursion into British Gibraltar territorial waters that lasted 22 hours in total. During that time, the vessel undertook significant survey activity. Vessels of the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron challenged the vessel with radio warnings and continued to shadow the vessel until it departed. The Ramon Margalef was joined in British Gibraltar territorial waters by three vessels of the Spanish Guardia Civil, which attempted to act as escorts to this vessel. The Guardia Civil vessels were also challenged and shadowed by the Royal Navy until they left Gibraltar waters.
Yesterday evening, the Foreign Office summoned the Spanish ambassador to the UK in order to underline the British Government’s serious concerns regarding this provocative and unlawful incursion by a Spanish state research vessel. During the meeting, the ambassador was again reminded of our continued concerns regarding border delays, which continue on a near-daily basis, and our desire to move relations on to a more positive track through ad hoc talks, as proposed by the Foreign Secretary in April 2012.
Yesterday’s incursion occurred despite repeated diplomatic protests to Spain in recent months, and comes only two weeks after a dangerous manoeuvre by Guardia Civil vessels put lives at risk and resulted in a minor collision. According to the United Nations convention on the law of the sea, the waters around Gibraltar are indisputably British territorial waters, under United Kingdom sovereignty, in which only the United Kingdom has the right to exercise jurisdiction. We remain confident of UK sovereignty over the whole of Gibraltar, including British Gibraltar territorial waters.
The British Government strongly condemn this provocative incursion and urge the Spanish Government to ensure that it is not repeated. We stand ready to do whatever is required to protect Gibraltar’s sovereignty, economy and security. We believe that it is in the interests of Spain, Gibraltar and Britain to avoid incidents such as this, which damage the prospects for establishing dialogue and co-operation. The UK wants to maintain our strong bilateral relationship with Spain, which stretches across a range of areas and delivers support for UK and Gibraltarian interests. However, the Spanish Government are wrong if they believe that they can advance Spain’s position on sovereignty by increasing pressure on Gibraltar, whether at the border, through unlawful incursions or by other actions, such as complaints and posturing in the EU.
Robert Neill
I am grateful to the Minister for his response. Does he agree that this is just the latest incident in an escalating and cynical campaign of harassment of the people of Gibraltar by the Government in Madrid for their own domestic reasons? Will he conclude that it is now the time not only to make strong diplomatic representations, but to take specific legal action against Spain through the international courts for the clearest possible breach of international law? Furthermore, does he think that we should discuss with Her Majesty’s Government in Gibraltar the possibility of reinforcing the naval presence that supports our forces in Gibraltar by means of a larger, deeper depth patrol boat or of an ocean-going tug that will be able to remove offending vessels from British territorial waters in a way that our current admirable patrol boats are not able to do?
Mark Simmonds
I thank my hon. Friend for articulating the concern of many people both inside and outside this House, across the United Kingdom and in Gibraltar. It may be helpful if I give the House the most up-to-date information and the facts. It was not a Spanish naval vessel that went into British territorial waters, but a Spanish-owned oceanographic vessel. It did not get to the entrance of Gibraltar harbour, but was about 250 metres from it. It needs to be reiterated that an escalation of this matter is in nobody’s interest. A political solution to the dispute is required. Of course nothing is taken off the table. We constantly review the naval presence in and around Gibraltar, and we are certainly doing so now. We are keen to return to the ad hoc talks, from which the current Spanish Government withdrew in 2011, involving both the British and Spanish Governments and also the Government of Gibraltar.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on securing this urgent question. I rise now to underline the deep concern on the Labour Benches that further Spanish ships entered British Gibraltar territorial waters yesterday without authorisation and stayed for more than 20 hours. Spain is our ally in NATO and on the world stage and is often our ally in the European Council, so its actions on Gibraltar are even more reprehensible in that context. The Spanish Government should be in no doubt that both sides of the House share the anger about yesterday’s events.
Will the Minister tell the House when he or other Ministers became aware of the Spanish ship’s incursion into our waters yesterday, and whether any effort was made during the 20 or more hours the ship was in our waters to contact officials or Ministers in the Spanish Government to demand that the ship be ordered to withdraw?
I welcome the decision by Ministers yesterday to again summon the Spanish ambassador. Is the Minister or the Foreign Secretary planning further calls to their Spanish Government counterparts to underline the seriousness with which this latest action is viewed? Gibraltar cannot and should not be used by Spain’s Government to score cheap political points.
The Chief Minister of Gibraltar is quoted as saying that he has discussed the possibility of more senior assets of the Royal Navy being put at the disposal of the commander of British forces in Gibraltar. Will the Minister give us more information on those discussions and tell us whether he has had, or intends to have, further talks with the European Commission on the ongoing delays at the border?
Finally, the Minister made brief reference to the Spanish Government having pulled out of the trilateral forum in 2011. Does he see any sign of the Spanish accepting the need to return once again to the use of that sensible diplomatic channel for discussions?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman asked a series of questions. I first became aware of this incursion yesterday morning. The House will not be surprised to learn that there were contacts between the British Government and the Spanish Government to encourage the Spanish Government to ensure that the vessel was removed from British Gibraltar territorial waters. I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that, as far as I am aware—this was the situation when I came to the House to answer the urgent question—the vessel had not returned to British Gibraltar territorial waters as was its intention yesterday, so those contacts have had some impact. The discussions about whether the naval presence in and around Gibraltar is correct are ongoing and the hon. Gentleman will not be surprised that I will not go into the detail at this stage. We are also in constant contact with the Government of Gibraltar to ensure that the information being provided is available to the Governments of both the UK and Gibraltar.
Let me also address the point that the hon. Gentleman made about the European Commission and its role in trying to settle this political dispute. He will be aware that the Commission visited the border on 25 September and will not be surprised to hear that there were few delays during that visit. The Commission has committed to monitoring the situation and possibly to returning in six months’ time. We continue to provide evidence to the Commission about what we believe is the unlawful Spanish activity. We also urge the Spanish to implement the recommendations made by the Commission to the Spanish Government about how they can improve ease of access across the border. Those recommendations are to optimise physical space on the Spanish side, including increasing the number of vehicle lanes; to carry out more targeted checks, particularly as they relate to the significant problem of tobacco smuggling; and to develop a mechanism to exchange information with the United Kingdom specifically to target tobacco smuggling.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I commend my hon. Friend for his measured and carefully considered answer to the question. He will be well aware that the purpose of provocation is to provoke—that is, to provoke a reaction that justifies the initial action of provocation. I hope therefore that his policy will be to ensure that the United Kingdom does not fall into that trap. May I go back to the question of NATO, however? Under article 5 of the north Atlantic treaty, all members of NATO are obliged to regard an attack on one as an attack on all. Under those circumstances, is not the NATO route perhaps one of the most effective diplomatic routes that could be followed in this case to bring some sense to the attitude of the Spanish Government?
Mark Simmonds
My right hon. and learned Friend makes an important point. Of course, we have strong and positive relations with Spain in a range of areas. Approximately 1 million UK citizens live in Spain and approximately 14 million UK citizens visit Spain each and every year. He is absolutely right to focus on the importance of not responding aggressively to this provocation and to re-emphasise and reiterate the necessity to de-escalate what is a political dispute. My right hon. and learned Friend’s point about NATO is absolutely right, although the UK Government do not consider this a military attack. At no time has the Spanish navy come into British Gibraltar territorial waters.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
The Minister says that a political solution is needed, but surely he would accept that we have a political solution. Gibraltar is British, the people of Gibraltar wish to remain British and that is that. Will he make it absolutely clear to the Spanish Government that this constant harassment is unacceptable, that if the Spanish navy is involved in such incursions we will retaliate with our naval vessels and that the harassment at the border must stop? It is no good going on saying that we are friends. Friendship consists of friendship; it does not consist of immoderate and intolerable harassment by the Spanish Government.
Mark Simmonds
The right hon. Gentleman can be assured that we express our concern and distaste in the strongest possible terms about both the incursions into British territorial waters and the border disputes we were talking about a moment ago. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that our position on the sovereignty of Gibraltar is clear and unchanged. We will protect the right of the people of Gibraltar to determine their political future. The UK will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar will pass under the sovereignty of another state against their wishes. Furthermore, the UK will not enter into any process of sovereignty negotiations with which Gibraltar is not content.
Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
When my hon. Friend next sees his Spanish counterpart, will he remind him that Spain possesses two enclaves on the coast of north Africa, and will he tell him that we will respect Spain’s sovereignty over its overseas territories if it does the same in respect of Gibraltar?
Mark Simmonds
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point in an extremely relevant way, and I have no doubt that the Spanish ambassador and others in Spain will have noted his comments.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I agree with the Minister’s measured response, but I put it to him that the problem is that there is no agreement between Spain, Britain and Gibraltar that resolves these problems. May I advise him to look again at the agreement that I signed as Europe Minister with the Spanish Government, but which was subsequently reneged on at a higher level? It was supported by the Conservative former Foreign Secretary, Lord Howe, and by Lord Garel-Jones. It guaranteed Gibraltarians British citizenship and their rights, including the right to political self-determination, but acknowledged the historical Spanish interest. If we move down that road, we might resolve these problems.
Mark Simmonds
The right hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point, and that is why, while we are making sure that we deter, as far as possible, any further incursion into those waters and are trying to put in place mechanisms to resolve the challenges and the significant unacceptable delays at the border, the focus is on returning to the talks—both the ad hoc talks that the Foreign Secretary proposed in April 2012 and, hopefully, the tripartite talks that were under way before the current Spanish Government came to power, in which there was detailed discussion of the operation of the border and other matters between the Spanish, British and Gibraltarian Governments. In the long term, that has to be the way forward.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Given the Spanish Government’s sudden enthusiasm for rigorous border controls, will the UK Government consider setting up a special line at Heathrow airport for planes coming from Spain, and a line dedicated to Spanish passport holders, so that we can show the same rigour with regard to their entry to the United Kingdom as they are showing in allowing our citizens to enter Spain from Gibraltar?
Mark Simmonds
My hon. Friend makes a passionate point, but he will no doubt be aware that the majority of people who are inconvenienced by the significant delays at the Spanish-Gibraltar border are Spanish citizens trying to get into Gibraltar; many of them work there. We have to try to make sure that the Spanish implement what the European Commission set out in its correspondence with Spain, which I outlined earlier, to ensure that any citizen of any country wishing to travel across the border between Spain and Gibraltar can do so in an expeditious manner.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Given the escalation in the violations of British Gibraltar’s waters by Spanish vessels and the increase in illegal road checks, instead of calling in the Spanish ambassador for possibly the fourth, fifth or sixth time, is it not time for the Prime Minister to get involved directly, at Head of Government level, to pursue the NATO route alluded to by the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell)? Is it not time to spell out the consequences for Spain—it would be helpful if the Minister could do that today—if this action continues?
Mark Simmonds
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is constant contact between the UK and Spanish Governments. We certainly call in the Spanish ambassador, as we did yesterday and have done on previous occasions, when we feel that behaviour is unacceptable, but I can give the right hon. Gentleman an assurance that over the summer the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe all spoke to their respective counterparts in Spain to try to de-escalate the challenges that we are talking about. That will continue unless the Spanish change their behaviour.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Spain is a NATO ally, so perhaps the Spanish will understand that we may express our disquiet by stopping our naval vessels going to places such as Rota to re-provision, and may instead re-provision them in Gibraltar, or perhaps by sending an infantry company to Gibraltar on roulement more often, to express our extreme worries about what is happening to our people in Gibraltar.
Mark Simmonds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. I assure him that the Royal Navy challenges all unlawful incursions by vessels, and indeed puts out radio warnings about the monitoring of all offending state vessels until they leave our waters, but it is clear that we need to de-escalate this, not go in the other direction.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The Minister should not hold his breath waiting for the European Commission to do anything more on the problems at the border. As a huge morale boost for Gibraltarians, perhaps he or the Foreign Secretary will get on a plane in the next couple of days, and go to Gibraltar, and make it very clear publicly that they will do whatever is needed to protect Gibraltarians from Spanish bullying.
Mark Simmonds
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that suggestion. I cannot speak on behalf of the Foreign Secretary, but I can certainly give her an unequivocal assurance that the United Kingdom Government, including the Foreign Office, stand shoulder to shoulder with the Government and the people of Gibraltar to make sure that they can keep their links with the United Kingdom. We will work together to do everything that we can to reduce and mitigate this unacceptable behaviour, both on the part of Spanish oceanographic vessels and as regards the border delays.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend remind his Spanish counterpart that in 1967 almost 100% of Gibraltarian people voted to remain under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom? In the most recent poll, in 2002, 98.5% of the people voted to reject joint sovereignty with Spain. Will he tell our Spanish counterparts that this harassment by the Spanish Government is totally unacceptable and violates all UN charters?
Mark Simmonds
I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that of course we will continue to make the strongest possible representations to the Spanish Government. It is relevant, in response to his question, to highlight that Gibraltar’s constitution reflects the principle that the people have the right of self-determination. The realisation of that right must be promoted and respected in conformity with the provisions of the charter of the United Nations that are applicable under international treaties. Certainly, we will not go down the route that the previous Government took in 2002.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
I agree with the Minister that everything should be done to de-escalate the crisis, and we should recognise that Spain is a long-term ally of ours, but is the Minister aware that those of us who supported Spanish democrats during the very long years of Franco’s brutal dictatorship much regret the pressure that Spain is putting on the people of Gibraltar, who have made it clear, as has been stated time and again today, that they want the status quo to remain?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. Bullying and intimidation, wherever they occur, are unacceptable, but that certainly appears to be what is happening in relation to Gibraltar. I can give him, as I have given others, an assurance that the British Government will continue to make the strongest possible representations to ensure, hopefully, that the situation is de-escalated, and that the Spanish Government change their behaviour.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the behaviour of the Spanish Government has got worse and worse, and that rather than behaving like the democratic European country that it is supposed to be, Spain’s intimidation tactics put it more in line with Iran than Europe? Does he agree that if this carries on, we should send the Spanish ambassador packing from this country?
Mark Simmonds
I am not sure that the comparison that my hon. Friend makes is fair or accurate. As I mentioned, the Spanish ambassador was called in yesterday, and we clearly set out, in no uncertain terms, the strength of feeling in both the United Kingdom and Gibraltar about Spain’s actions. Ultimately, as I have said, we have to return to the ad hoc talks suggested by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Interestingly enough, the Spanish Government have publicly said that they will return to those talks, but have not yet specified the exact date when that will happen.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
With massive corruption allegations swirling around the Spanish Government, I am sure there is nothing Señor Margallo would like more than for our Government to take up the suggestions of the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) or the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). The Spanish Government would love to escalate the situation. They would love to wipe all those stories off the Spanish newspapers’ front pages so that they could have a good old-fashioned Francoist row with Britain. May I urge the Minister, if he ever gets anywhere close to his sabre, just to leave it alone?
Mark Simmonds
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. He is right that we need to be calm, but we need also to be firm, to make sure that the Spanish understand that the behaviour, both at the border and in the territorial waters, is not acceptable. He is also right to highlight the domestic political problems that Spain and the Spanish Government have. In addition, there are clearly some issues that relate specifically to tobacco smuggling across the Spanish-Gibraltar border. The Spanish Government, the Gibraltarian Government and the United Kingdom need to work together to resolve those.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I am left wondering whether there has been a breach of article 5 of the NATO treaty. I served in the Army in Gibraltar in 1995 as aide-de-camp to the Governor. Three-hour waits at the border were commonplace then, caused by overweight Spanish security guards taking far too long to do their inspections. When my hon. Friend met the ambassador yesterday, did he give him a copy of the treaty of Utrecht signed by the Spanish in 1713, which makes it very clear that Gibraltar is not part of Spain?
Mark Simmonds
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I do not think the ambassador was given a copy of the treaty of Utrecht; I am sure he is very much aware of its contents. But he was told in no uncertain terms about the unacceptability of the oceanographic vessel entering British Gibraltar territorial waters and staying there for the length of time that it did. He was also made well aware of the strength of feeling that exists in both Gibraltar and the United Kingdom about the unacceptable delays at the border, which are potentially hindering the economy in Gibraltar, and hindering free access and movement for Gibraltarians and for Spanish people as well.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
By my count, this is the fourth time that the Foreign Office has summoned the ambassador and his representatives for a stern ticking-off. On each occasion the Spanish have escalated the dispute by trying to ruin Gibraltar economically with these absurd border checks. Does there not come a point where even the Minister would accept that this strategy is not working and that we need real action from this Government?
Mark Simmonds
The United Kingdom is standing shoulder to shoulder with the Government and the people of Gibraltar. The Spanish activity, both the incursion into territorial waters and the border delays, are unacceptable. The British Government have made this clear in the strongest possible terms. The Prime Minister wrote to the EU Commission President to ask the EU Commission to get involved, which it has now done. We continue to provide evidence to the EU Commission, we continue to press the EU Commission to make sure that its recommendations to the UK, Gibraltar and Spain are implemented in full, and we will continue to do everything we can through diplomatic and political means to resolve what is a political dispute to the satisfaction of Gibraltarians and everybody in the United Kingdom.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
Partido Popular in Spain and the Government are extremely unpopular, so these activities are just a diversion. The trouble is that the people of Gibraltar are the ones who suffer every time the border is closed. We need to stop these things constantly being escalated. In the end, it is the democratic right of the people of Gibraltar to remain British, which they emphasise all the time. We must do more as a Government to make sure the borders are open.
Mark Simmonds
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point about the necessity to improve access across the border, which is why we will try to do everything we can to ensure that the EU Commission’s recommendations are implemented in full. We also fully expect Spain to act on the Commission’s recommendations. The Commission is still clearly concerned by the situation and is committed to remaining engaged and following up in the way that I outlined. Interestingly, it has reserved the right to reconsider its position and has explicitly offered the possibility of a further visit to the border. If the Commission is to do that, I suggest that it does so without giving the Spanish notice so that it can see how people are suffering.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
The right of self-determination of Gibraltar must surely be respected above all, and we should stand with Gibraltar and put some backbone into the European Commission to rein in Madrid. Although Gibraltar is not in the UK, it is a British overseas territory in special social union with us, but regardless even of that, international law must be respected. As Spain is a democracy, in the EU and in NATO, should it not start behaving accordingly, and certainly not fire shots at a young man on jet skis in Gibraltar harbour? Finally, is there any hope of making the European Commission rein in Spain much sooner than in six months?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman is right about the incident that happened a little while ago with the jet ski. He will be aware of the strong protestations that we made at the time. To clarify the position, our policy on Gibraltar is crystal clear. The people of Gibraltar have repeatedly and overwhelmingly expressed their wish to remain under British sovereignty and we will respect their wishes. This is entirely consistent with the purposes of the principles of multilateral organisations such as the United Nations, which determine the principle of self-determination.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that a possible political solution is already going through the House? My Gibraltar (Maritime Protection) Bill seeks to enshrine and update the treaty of Utrecht to ensure that Gibraltar’s waters have a stipulation of three miles in UK law. I know I have the backing of Members on both sides of the House, and that the Bill will have its Second Reading on 28 February next year. Will the Government give it priority and speed it through to ensure that the behaviour that we have seen over the past few weeks from the Spaniards does not continue and will not happen again?
Mark Simmonds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am aware of the private Member’s Bill to which he refers. My understanding is that it is not required, because under international law the three-mile limit in British Gibraltar territorial waters is already in place. Indeed, my understanding is that it may be possible to extend that to 12 miles, but we have not chosen to do so. The three-mile limit is already enshrined in international legislative structures.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Gibraltar’s Member of the European Parliament, Sir Graham Watson, has emphasised that the authorities would be quite within their rights to board and impound Spanish vessels, should there be a further incursion. Does the Minister agree that the Royal Navy has so far shown admirable restraint, emphasising Britain’s unwillingness to escalate the crisis on our side?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman is right. The simplistic answer to his question is yes, but we will ensure that the Spanish and those vessels that make any incursion into British Gibraltar territorial waters are under no illusion about the fact that they are not welcome, and that those are British waters and do not belong to Spain.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The Spanish Government seem to regard the dressing-down of their ambassador about as seriously as a miscreant youth regards an antisocial behaviour order. What is required for miscreant youths who have an ASBO is a firm deterrent, so what is the Minister saying to the Spanish Government about what will happen, should an incursion happen again?
Mark Simmonds
We have made it very clear that these incursions are unacceptable. We continue to ensure that the Royal Navy will take tough action, but we are also making sure that our differences with Spain regarding these territorial waters should be resolved by diplomatic and political means, not through naval confrontation. My hon. Friend may be disappointed with this, but we do not believe that gunboat diplomacy and tit-for-tat escalation is in anyone’s interests.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
Last night Gibraltar marked its debut as a UEFA member by holding Slovakia to a goalless draw. Does the Minister, like me, look forward to a qualifying fixture in a future tournament for which the Spanish football team will have to cross the border into Gibraltar?
Mark Simmonds
I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the Gibraltarian football team on last night’s result. To be absolutely clear, the incursions by Spanish vessels are a violation of sovereignty but not a threat to sovereignty.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
My constituency is completely land-locked and in the centre of the country, but I have been amazed by the number of e-mails and contacts pouring in from constituents fed up to the back teeth with this. I appreciate that the Minister has given us some soft and warm words about de-escalation and the need to resolve this diplomatically, but I have a feeling that the people of South Derbyshire would like the Royal Navy to send some bigger ships there as soon as possible.
Mark Simmonds
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern and that of her constituents, and she will not be surprised to hear that they are not unique in holding those views. There is genuine anger about both what has happened at the border and the incursion into British Gibraltar territorial waters. Obviously, as I said in my initial remarks, we constantly review whether the Royal Navy’s deployment in Gibraltar is adequate. She will be under no illusions about the fact that we are now reviewing that, but ultimately this has to be resolved through diplomatic and political mechanisms. It is in no one’s interest to escalate this conflict. We hope that implementation of the European Commission’s recommendations, as set out in its letter to the Spanish Government, and maintaining the firm stance that incursions into the waters are completely and utterly unacceptable will change behaviour.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to Gibraltar for its 300 years of gallantry, fortitude and loyalty to the British Crown? Is he willing to meet me and some of my constituents who have been campaigning for that great naval port to be granted the George Cross? Finally, if he ends up having to send the military to Gibraltar, will he ensure that he sends the Royal Marines to support the Royal Gibraltar Regiment? After all, it was they who secured it in the first place.
Mark Simmonds
I am well aware of my hon. Friend’s determination and his passion for the links between the United Kingdom and Gibraltar, which most Members of the House, if not all, share. He is absolutely right to highlight the 300 years of history. I can sum up those historical links in one neat phrase: their history is our history. He is also passionate about his campaign for Gibraltar to be given the George Cross. He will be well aware of the extremely high bar that exists for achieving the George Cross on a collective basis—it has been received only by Malta and by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. There is a process for that, and I know that he and those who support his campaign are already engaged in it.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I am sure that it will have struck the Minister from the questions asked today that the weight of opinion in this House is in favour of action. On that basis, will he take the opportunity when he next speaks to the ambassador to reflect on that weight of opinion and make it abundantly clear that we will take this no longer?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. It is certainly true that the strength of feeling across the House about the unacceptability of Spain’s behaviour towards Gibraltar sends an extremely powerful message to the Spanish Government and others in Spain who wish to make life difficult for the people of Gibraltar. I can give him an assurance that we will continue to make that case in very strong terms on behalf of hon. Members.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Many Members have contributed to this urgent question, and it is clear that there is cross-party support for the considered clarity that my hon. Friend the Minister has shown. Will he reassure us that the British voice, whatever form it takes, in other institutions, such as the United Nations, NATO and the European Union, will reflect just as clearly the fact that Gibraltar is British and will remain British?
Mark Simmonds
I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that in bilateral meetings and on the multilateral stage we will continue to make those points extremely strongly and forcefully.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
It appears that the Spanish and the Argentines egg each other on over our disputes. What is the Foreign Office doing to encourage Spain’s other allies to dissuade it from putting its seamen’s lives at risk?
Mark Simmonds
That is part of the effort we are putting into providing evidence to the European Commission so that it can play a responsible role in changing Spanish behaviour. My hon. Friend raises an interesting point about talk of co-operation between Spain and Argentina. Despite the threat from the Spanish Foreign Minister, there has been no visible co-operation between Spain and Argentina at the UN General Assembly in 2013. Let me be absolutely clear that the people of both the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar have expressed a democratic wish to remain British.
Start-up Loans
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Skills and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on start-up loans. Since the great recession of 2008, concern has been raised repeatedly across the House about access to finance, particularly for the smallest companies. The contraction in support for small and medium-sized business lending following the financial crisis led to a sharp drop in the growth of lending to, and support for, small businesses. All Members will recognise the constraints facing aspiring entrepreneurs across the country trying to access finance.
Those problems were a consequence of an overreliance on bank finance compared with our international competitors, a hollowing-out of business lending units in the big banks and too much concentration in our banking system, followed by the biggest banking bust ever faced in this country and the biggest bank failure in the world in 2008.
A calamity of that scale cannot be addressed by a single policy, so since 2010 we have engaged on a comprehensive programme of bank reform: splitting retail and investment banking; requiring greater capital; introducing a tax on leverage; introducing much stronger requirements to check that the people running banks are fit and proper persons, so that we do not get the likes of Fred Goodwin and the Rev. Paul Flowers sitting atop our banks in future; and introducing criminal charges for those who behave negligently in charge of big banks.
Those changes are part of a wider drive to change the culture of banking so that our banks serve the economy, rather than the other way around, but alone they are not enough. To help companies access finance, we have introduced the British business bank, doubled the seed enterprise investment scheme, expanded the enterprise finance guarantee, and last year we introduced start-up loans of up to £25,000 per founder—although, more typically it is around £6,000—to help budding entrepreneurs access the seed capital to make their idea a reality.
For too long Britain has been a home of great ideas that are then commercialised and developed elsewhere. We want British business men and women to take brilliant British ideas and turn them into blossoming British businesses. The first start-up loan was made in September 2012, and since then growth has exceeded expectations. Over a third of loans go to black and minority ethnic entrepreneurs and over a third go to people previously unemployed. In June this year the Prime Minister announced that start-up loans would no longer be restricted to young people, so the age cap has been removed altogether. We are now seeing strong growth in the number of people over 30 being helped to realise their full entrepreneurial potential through the programme’s mentoring and financial support.
In August we introduced specialised support to finance ex-military service personnel who want to start their own business within the start-up loans scheme. I am pleased to announce that today we have made the 100,000th start-up loan—[Interruption.] Today we have made the 10,000th start-up loan.
Mr Allen Martin, a Royal Navy engineer from Truro, is the 10,000th loan recipient for the programme. Allen joined the Royal Navy in 1991 as an engineer and mechanic, working with helicopters, search and rescue, and commando forces. He served for 22 years, in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. Having been medically discharged, Allen knew what he wanted to do—start his own business—so he applied for a start-up loan and founded Eclipse Property Cornwall, which will manage properties on behalf of landlords, renting them out and offering full or part-time management. Allen Martin has benefited from the extension of start-up loans to all ages and the specialised support of our ex-service personnel.
Given the success of this targeted approach within the full age range, we are now going even further. I can tell the House that we are committing a total of £151 million to the scheme this year and next, with the goal of backing 30,000 new businesses by 2015. From 1 January, the Start-Up Loans Company will specifically target priority groups: entrepreneurs over the age of 50, young people not in education, employment or training, and new mothers who are ready to return to the workplace and are seeking the ability to manage their own time and commitments on their own terms.
Age UK estimates that one in five of those over 50 now work for themselves—a growing trend accounting for 70% of the businesses started in the past five years, compared with 28% of those started by young people. With the added support of mentors who understand modern media and marketing, new retail platforms and communication channels, start-up loans can help to bring even more of those in this age group to success. That is why we are tasking Start-Up Loans to find the specialist providers who will make the loans a perfect fit for the older entrepreneur.
On NEETs, I know that Members throughout the House have seen just how valuable and popular these loans are in tackling youth unemployment. Working with the new enterprise allowance, start-up loans give specialist support to those who have been away from the workplace for a long time and need strong and committed mentors with an understanding of what it is to start from a very low base. The Prince’s Trust has already demonstrated just how effective that approach can be, and much more can be done to create a targeted offer that creates the right conditions for these businesses to survive and thrive within the safe environment of start-up loans.
Finally, new mothers are also turning increasingly to self-employment. According to Mumpreneur UK, self-employment for women is rising at three times the rate for men. So far, 37% of start-up loans have gone to women. We want to do more to increase that figure, so we will introduce specialised support for mothers seeking to start businesses who are juggling child care and seeking flexible ways to turn a business idea into reality.
With record new business creation, 400,000 new businesses, record jobs and a record 4.9 million companies in the UK, Britain is once again becoming an entrepreneurial beacon of the world. Our future prosperity rests on the entrepreneurial aspirations of the British people. This Government will not rest in our drive to support those who want to work hard and get on, and I commend this statement to the House.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his statement. Given that I first saw it when I arrived at the House, I also thank him for not saying anything surprising during it. I want to place on record the thanks of the whole House for the work that has been done by James Caan and the Start-Up Loans Company to support people to set up their own businesses. I also record our congratulations to Allen Martin, the 10,000th recipient of a start-up loan.
I understand that Allen is one of the very first ex-servicemen to benefit from a start-up loan. It was immense good fortune—I am sure the Prime Minister, as a public relations professional, will have appreciated his luck—that the 10,000th recipient of a loan should happen to be a Royal Naval veteran who gave 22 years’ service to our country, is over the age of 30 and lives far away from London. Sadly, he is not all that typical of the people who are benefiting from the scheme. However, atypical as he may be, he is a great role model to inspire future business leaders.
Small businesses are the lifeblood of our economy, so the £50 million that has been lent to 10,000 new entrepreneurs is an important symbol of the enterprise spirit that runs deep through the proud history of our great island people. The Minister was right to broaden his remarks to address the broader context of the scheme. As we examine the performance of start-up loans in the context of the broader picture for small businesses and the support available, we will see that James Caan is right to say there is still much work to be done.
Does this scheme have a default target and, if so, how is it performing against it? A key lesson from the start-up loans programme is that access to finance schemes is only as good as the infrastructure that supports them and that the schemes rely on a wider system of business support, mentoring and signposting—the very fabric of support that is so lacking in many parts of the country in the absence of Business Link, the abolition of the regional development agencies and the impoverishment of local government.
That is borne out by the statistics that we are welcoming today. In every recession, there has been an increase in business start-ups. People faced with a flat job market and low demand for their skills will often seek to create their own job by setting up a firm. Desperation is not a bad motive for launching a firm—I have done it myself—but it is noticeable that far and away the most loans have been given where businesses support networks are strongest, namely London: 15% of the population lives in London, yet 36% of the start-up loans have been delivered there.
Does the Minister recognise the links between an integrated business support network and successful start-ups? If so, does he regret the destruction of Business Link and the failure to replace it with anything meaningful to provide support, not just to start-ups, but to developing small firms around the country?
Just as with the regeneration money from the Growing Places fund that went much more to London and the south-east, just 5% of the loans under discussion are going to areas such as the north-east, which has seen huge job losses and which we would have thought would be ripe for skilled workers looking to set up their own firms. What is the Minister doing to create a one nation business support network for those areas receiving the least of the start-up loans money? Although we absolutely recognise and welcome the scheme’s success in attracting people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and the number of women who have benefited from it, it is important that that geographical aspect is recognised.
Is the Minister aware that James Caan has said that support and mentoring is a more important part of the success of this programme than the loan? Is the Minister therefore embarrassed that recent research has shown that people using the Government’s Mentorsme website are four times more likely to offer themselves as experts than as businesses needing mentoring? Does he think that a scheme with four times as many experts as recipients of that expertise sounds like a success?
Will the Minister promise that the success of this worthwhile scheme will not blind him to the fact that there is a crisis in business support in many areas of this country and that businesses that would have had a chance of success will fail because of a lack of signposting and mentoring?
The Minister spoke about commercialised British ideas going overseas, but this type of scheme, important though it is, is not likely to make a difference, because it seems to be targeting a very different part of the market.
The Government’s failure to support small firms with access to finance cannot be camouflaged by this worthwhile scheme. Given that the Government have overseen a £14 billion reduction in lending to small business, will the Minister, at the same time as he celebrates his £50 million scheme, recognise that total lending from it is less than 1% of the shortfall in net lending that British business has experienced? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that I think he is approaching his last sentence?
Toby Perkins
You are very wise, once again, Mr Speaker, to notice that.
Will the Minister make a statement on the real access to finance crisis that he has done so little about? Will he recognise the need for radical change to the banks through the Labour party’s proposed network of local banks and support for challenger banks, which will lead to the desperately needed improvement in the position of small firms seeking access to finance?
Matthew Hancock
Mr James Caan, who runs the start-up loans scheme on our behalf and to whom I pay tribute, is absolutely right to say how important mentoring is—and I think we have just seen why. What a pity that the Labour party cannot be enthusiastic about and supportive of a scheme that has done so much: 37% of start-up loans go to BME entrepreneurs and more than a third to the unemployed. We are aiming for 30,000 and the pace of delivery is accelerating.
I will turn to the specific questions asked. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about business growth in hubs, which is why the development of Tech City UK and of start-up hubs around the country—in Manchester, Cambridge, Edinburgh and almost every city—is welcome and I hope it will get cross-party support.
The hon. Gentleman said that we need to ensure that this scheme is part of a package, but I am not sure whether he was listening to the statement. The whole point is that the scheme is precisely part of a plan to start improving access and helping people right at the start of their business careers, and to then expand the enterprise investment scheme, enhance the guarantees available, establish the business bank and, most importantly, turn around the banks. I think that a little more support from the Labour party for turning around the mess it created would be more appropriate.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am conscious of the level of interest, but also of the pressure on parliamentary time. Depending on the length of questions and answers, it may or may not be possible to accommodate everybody, but we will begin with Mr John Redwood.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
As we wish to spread the news to constituents, what is the typical interest rate for loans and the average duration of them?
Matthew Hancock
The interest is typically 6% and the average duration is up to five years, but those matters are of course also dependent on the proposition that is made. So far, in the year and a bit that the scheme has been going, the amount paid back has been pretty strong.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
The Minister berated my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) for not looking at the wider picture, but he will be aware that of the outstanding loans from British banks in August, more than 30% were loans to other banks and more than 40% were loans to consumers linked to house buying, while only just over 1% were loans to small businesses. After three years of having scheme after scheme, how can he persuade this House to take Government policies in this area seriously?
Matthew Hancock
That is precisely why we need programmes such as this one, which I hope the hon. Gentleman supports. It is important for us all to realise just how difficult it is to recover from the scale of the banking crisis under the previous Government. Many measures are of course needed, and this very important one is helping thousands of people to start their own businesses and realise their dreams.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
I congratulate Mr Martin and wish him well. I started two small businesses that now employ almost 300 people, having gone into a sub-branch of Lloyds bank and come out with a facility of £60,000 in 1989. That would not happen now, so my concern is about whether information is getting through properly at the coal face. Will the Minister tell us whether that is happening, and will he continue to monitor that matter to ensure that the people he rightly says are in need of loans can receive them?
Matthew Hancock
Absolutely. The development and acceleration of the scheme includes an acceleration in people being able to get hard cash. In many cases, the turnaround time from application to delivery of the cash is about two weeks and, given that speed kills in relation to starting a new business, that is an important part of the process.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
A Welsh Government-sponsored report by Conservative member Professor Dylan Jones-Evans recently recommended the establishment of a publicly-backed Welsh development bank, very much based on a model proposed by my party, Plaid Cymru. Will the Minister enter into negotiations with the Welsh Government, give them a nudge and offer Treasury support for that concept to ensure that Welsh businesses get the access to finance that they deserve?
Matthew Hancock
I can do better than that. In collaboration with the Welsh Government, the roll-out of start-up loans in Wales commenced on 15 October, and I would encourage anybody in Wales to get involved.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I commend the Minister for all the help he has given to small businesses since he took up his post. I am particularly pleased that he has recognised the diversity of groups wanting to start businesses. With regard to the over-50s in particular, how will he get information out—not to the banks, but to local authorities, local enterprise partnerships and other places in which people who are not used to computers will look for such help?
Matthew Hancock
The Business is Great website is an important part of that. I commend my hon. Friend’s work in supporting small businesses, in pushing for improvements for them and in getting out personally to demonstrate what is available. There is a broad communications campaign about the scheme—yes, online, but also offline—and I take every opportunity to tell people what is available.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Will the Minister confirm that the advice that goes with the funding, which is crucial, is specific to individual businesses and the markets in which they operate? Will he also confirm that funding and advice for existing businesses is equally important, because without that second element, start-up loans will ultimately lose much of their effectiveness?
Matthew Hancock
Yes. Those are extremely important points. The growth accelerator programme offers support for small and growing businesses and is itself expanding rapidly. The start-up loan programme is not only about access to finance for those starting businesses, but about mentoring. The number of businesses sponsored by each mentor is small, so that mentors have the opportunity to spend time and put effort into ensuring that such ideas get the best possible chance.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Many of the people who have so far benefited from the programme are truly inspirational. The Minister may be interested to know about a perfume called Pink Addiction—I have tried it—which was created by Nabila Ismail. She was so positive about the scheme that the only thing she asked for was specialist mentoring wherever possible, a point which has been mentioned.
Matthew Hancock
I pay tribute to Pink Addiction. My hon. Friend has put a huge amount of effort into supporting start-ups and small businesses. I am sure that being mentored by him would be one of the best ways in which someone could grow their business.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister told the House that there will be £151 million for the scheme this year and next year, but will he clarify whether that is new or additional funding, or is he simply announcing something that has already been announced? If it is new or additional funding, will he ensure that businesses in Scotland can benefit from the project either directly or with additional funding through a Barnett consequential to the Scottish Government?
Matthew Hancock
The £151 million is available over the next two years. Further details will be set out in the autumn statement. We are working with the Administration in Scotland to ensure that the scheme can be rolled out across Scotland as well.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
May I congratulate the Minister on a scheme that has helped to deliver the lowest unemployment level in my constituency since August 2008? I particularly congratulate him on the 4,500 disabled people who have been able to access a scheme that is hugely important in allowing them to reach their true potential. Will he assure me that he will continue to promote that objective?
Matthew Hancock
Yes. My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is vital that the scheme should allow everybody the opportunity to reach their potential through starting a business, and he put that very eloquently.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the success so far of the start-up loans scheme, which I will continue to promote locally. Does he agree that the support of local business organisations, such as the successful Erewash Partnership in my constituency, is vital, in that they provide mentoring support and networking opportunities to help businesses to flourish?
Matthew Hancock
I pay tribute to the Erewash Partnership. Such local business support groups, as well as LEPs, the chambers of commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Forum of Private Business, the CBI and the Institute of Directors, play a part in making sure that businesses get to know what is available and are given support. We work in partnership with many of those organisations, which have done a great deal to make such a success of the scheme.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I believe it is a moral imperative for the Government to offer a route from welfare dependency and poverty to self-employment and prosperity, and on that basis I strongly welcome the scheme. Will the Minister undertake to look at the work done by third sector and voluntary groups, such as the Cambridgeshire Community Foundation and the Peterborough-based Cross Keys Homes, in helping tenants and those not usually involved in the business world to avail themselves of the scheme and access funding for micro-businesses and SMEs?
Matthew Hancock
Yes, I will do that. The fact that more than a third of the loans have gone to people who are unemployed is one of the scheme’s great strengths. Along with the new enterprise allowance, the scheme is helping us to reduce unemployment for people who do not want to go into an ordinary 9 to 5 job, and instead want to grow their own business.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on his success with the start-up loan scheme. Will he reassure the House that he will continue to champion efforts to build on the scheme, particularly in my Isle of Wight constituency?
Matthew Hancock
Yes, I will take a special interest in ensuring that the Isle of Wight has access to the scheme. Many of the partners through which it is delivered are regional, but there are many national partners and much of it can be done online. I am sure that broadband internet is readily available on the Isle of Wight. If it is not, it soon will be. I will take a special interest in how many loans are taken up on the Isle of Wight.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
This is welcome news, especially as the start-up businesses have gone on to employ a further 10,000 people. To build on that, what more can be done to encourage an entrepreneurial spirit within the education system to equip the next generation of young entrepreneurs?
Matthew Hancock
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for adding to the statistics at my disposal. He is a doughty campaigner for enterprise in the education system. One of the main purposes of bringing together the skills and enterprise briefs is to ensure that the education system reflects and prepares people for the world of employment and enterprise. That is very close to my heart and I look forward to working with him to make it happen more.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
The start-up loans scheme has been a fantastic success story. One reason for that success is the presence of business mentors. Will the Minister reassure the House that as the scheme grows, as new groups get involved and as the age cap is lifted, the number of business mentors will keep up in order to ensure that all the businesses have access to the support that they need?
Matthew Hancock
We are finding that lots of business men and women are interested in mentoring, partly because they feel that they got so much out of growing their business and want to give something back. Engaging more mentors is a vital part of the scheme, but that is not a constraint on expansion owing to the enthusiasm—to which I pay tribute—of business men and women who want to help others to get the sort of start that they had.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
As someone who started and ran a small business, I know about the challenges that are faced by people who want to run their own business, particularly in accessing finance. I was pleased to join the start-up bus when it visited Rugby. Does the Minister agree that the start-up loans scheme shows that the Government are providing real help to small emerging businesses, unlike the Labour party, which took advice on business and industry from the man who managed the decline of the Co-op bank?
Matthew Hancock
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is surprising to see the Labour Benches almost entirely empty when the House should be uniting in support of the excellent start-up loans scheme. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who started his own business and who does much in this House to promote those who start their own businesses.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
I recently met a number of young entrepreneurs who had started successful small businesses using start-up loans. They had been refused loans by mainstream banks. Will my hon. Friend assure me that the scheme will be broadened to create tens of thousands of budding entrepreneurs of all ages across our great country?
Matthew Hancock
The scheme is growing and accelerating, and it has the capacity to do more. I hope that we can do more with it, not least because it is helping people who would otherwise not be able to start their own business. We started the scheme because of the difficulty that is faced in getting finance from banks at an early stage. The evidence that my hon. Friend sees in his constituency is what I see across the country. That is exactly what this successful scheme is for.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I have great pleasure in welcoming this excellent statement because it brings good news about the real economy. Does the Minister agree that encouraging schools and colleges to have governors with business experience would enhance and embed the entrepreneurial spirit that we need in those places?
Matthew Hancock
I encourage links between colleges and local enterprise partnerships, which can be strengthened a great deal by their governors and board members sitting on each other’s boards. There are schools around the country that bring in businesses and entrepreneurs, not only to talk to students, for example through the brilliant Speakers for Schools programme, but to help design the curriculum and motivate children to improve their performance in academic subjects. That is a great success when it is done well and I encourage more schools to do it.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Is my hon. Friend aware that Harlow has had the highest business growth in the United Kingdom according to a BBC and Experian survey? Will he congratulate Danielle Field, a young mother who from nothing set up an apprentice hairdressing academy with her partner thanks to a James Caan loan? That has been a tremendous success. Is this scheme not an example of the Government helping the lowest-paid to get back into work?
Matthew Hancock
I pay tribute to Danielle Field. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend. I did not know that Harlow was the best place in the UK to start a business according to the statistics. That shows just how brilliant Harlow is, almost all of which is down to its brilliant MP.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Northamptonshire was recently declared by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to be the most enterprising place in Britain. Will the Minister ensure that a ready supply of start-up loans is made available to the entrepreneurs in that county so that the entrepreneurial spirit that is abroad can be captured, developed and promoted to the full?
Matthew Hancock
There seems to be a competition to be the most enterprising place in Britain. That is superb, because enterprise is all about being competitive and getting ahead. I am glad that that has been brought to my attention. Of course, all Government Members know that Harlow is in Essex, not in Northamptonshire or Kent. Ensuring that Northamptonshire and all other places get the support that is needed for small business is vital.
Mr Speaker
I remind the House that there is a ten-minute rule motion to follow. I remain fully committed to moving on to the main business at or very close to 2 o’clock, so if everybody wants to get in, Members will have to help each other.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
People in Northumberland welcome the Government’s support for start-up businesses. Does the Minister agree that the key to the reform of bank lending is the development of local and regional banks? Is he surprised that in April 2012 the Labour party voted against such banks?
Matthew Hancock
That is a surprise, given that ensuring that there is more competition in banking is a key part of the answer to that problem.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
I strongly welcome the statement. Having started businesses myself, I know how hard it can be. A key element of the statement was mentoring. I urge my hon. Friend to build on the targeted approach to mentoring that he has outlined today.
Matthew Hancock
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is the Prime Minister’s apprenticeship ambassador. He does a huge amount of work to promote apprenticeships, small businesses and start-ups across the country.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I welcome the scheme and its extension to include sharia-compliant finance. The UK is a world centre for ethical finance on Judaeo-Christian principles, which, like sharia-compliant finance, concentrates on risk sharing. Will the Minister consider including an ethical product?
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
Would-be entrepreneurs will recognise the cynical, negative response of the Opposition as evidence that the Labour party does not share their passion for creating businesses. The Minister referred to the 100,000th start-up loan. We were only at 1,000 start-up loans in February and we are now at 10,000 start-up loans, so we might well get to 100,000 start-up loans. What will be the Minister’s response if this policy continues to enjoy the success that it has had so far?
Matthew Hancock
I was getting ahead of myself. Mr Speaker, if we get to 100,000 start-up loans, I hope that I will be able to make a statement about that too.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
My hon. Friend was right to single out Mr Martin as a great role model for people of all ages and from all backgrounds in setting up a new business. I would like to give one of the last words this afternoon to Mr Martin. It is important for everyone in this House to listen to what he has to say about start-up loans. He says that they have given him
“the opportunity to start a new life”
and that it is “an amazing feeling”.
Matthew Hancock
It is terrific to hear directly from Mr Martin’s MP, who is such a champion of Falmouth and Truro, about the effect that the loan has had on him. Similar stories abound from all 10,000 of those who have received the loans.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
Start-up loans are helping many people to set up their own small businesses. We are coming up to small business Saturday, which is on 7 December. Mr Speaker, you are welcome to come to my networking event for small businesses at the iCon centre in Daventry on that morning and I will happily buy you a coffee. Will the Minister say how important it is to celebrate small businesses on small business Saturday?
Matthew Hancock
I love small businesses. I come from a small business background. Government Members have demonstrated their commitment to growing small businesses and doing everything they can to support them. To show that support, I urge everyone to get out there on 7 December—small business Saturday—to buy something from small businesses and to tweet about it, so the whole world knows how much we support small and growing businesses.
Point of Order
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have you had any indication from the Justice Secretary on whether he intends to come to the House and make a statement to clear up the confusion regarding the announcement by G4S yesterday that it has been overcharging for services it is contracted to provide to the Ministry of Justice? The confusion is twofold. First, there have been reports in the press that G4S has offered to repay roughly £23 million to the MOJ, but that that has been refused. I think hon. Members would want to know the reason for that. Secondly, on the proposed changes to the probation service, last week on Second Reading the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), who has responsibility for prisons and the probation service, indicated that
“if…G4S do not come out satisfactorily from the audit processes, which this Government instituted, they will not receive any contracts.”—[Official Report, 11 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 744.]
We need to know whether the MOJ is now excluding G4S from that process.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. He speaks both as a concerned constituency Member and a former Prisons Minister. The short answer is that I have received no indication that any Minister intends to come to the House to make a statement on the matter. My recollection from the media coverage is that the issue is one of ongoing investigation, but the words uttered by the right hon. Gentleman in his usual measured terms will have been heard on the Treasury Bench. We shall have to leave it there for today.
Regulation of Refractive Eye Surgery
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to regulate refractive eye surgery, including laser eye surgery.
Nine years ago, the late Frank Cook, a former hon. Member, brought together a group of senior MPs to take evidence and examine widespread concerns about the operation of the growing laser eye surgery industry. Those concerns included high-pressure sales tactics, variable standards of service and a frequent failure to provide adequate aftercare, particularly if the treatment had had unfortunate side effects. At the time, the consumer group Which? and the then National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence brought forward reports expressing their concerns about the development of the industry.
In 2005, Frank Cook introduced a Bill in the same form that I am promoting today. The aim was to give the industry the opportunity to address concerns voluntarily, before Government needed to act. Eight years on, I and other hon. Members have been shocked that there are still many incidences of the problems that we then identified. In some cases, they have got worse.
I pay tribute to the public and practitioners who came forward to their MPs to explain how they were treated and to expose current malpractice. I particularly want to pay tribute to Sasha Rodoy, from the My Beautiful Eyes campaign, who has supported many victims of the industry. I do not want to tarnish all practitioners in the field, because there are many good practitioners out there, but confidence will be undermined if we do not tackle the problems.
Eight years ago, we found that many of the corporates in the sector employed aggressive sales tactics to secure clients. Recent evidence from clients and former salespeople shows that the problem continues and has got worse. It often starts with a phone call, the offer of a time-limited discount or entry into a competition for free treatment. Patients visit the shop on a no-obligation basis for a consultation; then the phone calls start. We have evidence of people receiving 20 phone calls in a single day. Some salesmen are described as counsellors or refractive technicians, but have minimal training in what the surgery involves and come under intense pressure from their managers to clinch deals no matter what. Patients are often not given adequate information on the potential risks. One former Optical Express salesman described pressure from managers not to give customers all the available information for fear of scaring them off.
Material used by some companies to promote sales has been proven on several occasions by the Advertising Standards Authority to be unfounded, lacking in evidence and misleading. In 2011, the ASA upheld 17 complaints against Optical Express brochures.
Concerns continue to be expressed about the quality of patient assessment. Assessments are often undertaken by a different person from the surgeon who performs the operation or who provides aftercare—there is no consistent approach. Good practice in any surgery recommends that a patient’s consent is assured. A cooling-off period is recommended between the assessment and advice provided, and the final decision. Many companies state that a 24-hour or 72-hour cooling-off period is built into consent procedures, but we have evidence that that is not the case. Complex documents are placed in patients’ hands, and they are pressurised into providing a signature on the actual day of the surgery.
There is no legal requirement for a surgeon to be qualified or experienced in this field of surgery. There are no regulations to that effect: any doctor can undertake this surgery. The Royal College of Ophthalmologists introduced a certificate in laser surgery, but only half of practising surgeons have it. It is worrying that certification is on a downward trend: in 2009, 29 surgeons took the exam; in 2011, 13; in 2012, five; and this year, none. Worries have been expressed about the number of surgical operations an individual surgeon is contracted to undertake in one day: sometimes 17 to 20, sometimes more. There is no limit on the number of procedures a surgeon can undertake. That puts time pressures on assessments, pre-op procedures, operations and aftercare.
There are definite risks involved in this surgery. Some estimate that one in 20 patients experience post-operative problems, including dry eyes, blurred vision, starbursts and glare. In many cases, patients have found it extremely difficult to secure aftercare from companies. Many are forced to resort to the law, and it takes months—in some cases, years—to receive effective remedial action or compensation. On many occasions, they are forced to sign compromise agreements including gagging clauses so that they do not expose what has happened to them. In addition, in some instances they later find that the cost of corrective surgery is deducted from their compensation.
I could go through many case histories, but there is not time to do so. Many hon. Members have also brought cases to my attention. Ex-staff have talked about company patient satisfaction surveys being heavily influenced, or even filled in, by staff. On at least one occasion, an expression of dissatisfaction never came to light. I will quote what one person said to me:
“I was misled, misinformed and mis-sold.”
What needs to be done? Sir Bruce Keogh, the NHS medical director, examined laser surgery practice in his recent report on cosmetic surgery. He concluded that action needed to be taken to regulate the industry. His report was published in April and the Government are yet to respond.
The agenda that the Government need to address is set out in Frank Cook’s Bill, which I have updated. First, the industry needs statutory regulation, as voluntary mechanisms have failed. At minimum, all surgeons must be qualified, certificated and have regular competence assessments from here on in. There should be openness and transparency so that the success rates of individual surgeons and clinics can be published. Patients will then be able to make considered choices. The Government should consider limiting the number of operations that surgeons can undertake in one day: we restrict the hours of lorry drivers and pilots; we should also restrict the hours surgeons work, because patients are being put at risk. We should ensure that high-pressure sales techniques are made illegal in this area. There should be a legal requirement for companies and surgeons to provide full information, in a comprehensible form, on all risks to patients.
There should also be heavier sanctions for breaches of advertising standards and mis-selling by such companies, because the result of their actions is to expose people to serious health risks. There should be a seven-day breathing space, enforceable in law, between the initial decision and final consent. There should also be guaranteed aftercare and, if things go wrong, remedial action at the expense of the company, not the individual. Finally, there should be a compensation scheme. The mechanism for securing compensation for individuals who suffer loss and damage as a result of such actions should be swifter and less litigious. We have argued this case before, but perhaps it would be easier and less litigious if there was an industry-funded scheme to provide compensation to those who can demonstrate that they have been harmed by such surgery.
It is difficult to get a figure for how many such operations take place, but it looks as though between 100,000 and 120,000 people a year undertake such surgery. That is too many people. Even if the figure for those affected is one in 20, as I suggested, that means that thousands of our constituents are being put at risk by an industry that is completely unregulated. I therefore urge the Government to act now. There are many former patients, excellent practitioners and Members of this House who are willing to work with the Government on a programme to secure action based on the Keogh principles, which are about ensuring high standards of service, openness and transparency, accountability and a proper sense of care for such patients in the long term. This is a serious matter. I know that the Government are currently considering their response to Keogh. I hope that it will be imminent and that this part of the cosmetic surgery industry and the surgery industry overall will be covered in that response.
A large number of Members wished to support the Bill—I have had to select a range of Members from different parties and areas in presenting it—and I thank them for that.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That John McDonnell, Ann Clwyd, Sir John Randall, Sir Bob Russell, Hywel Williams, Mark Durkan, Jim Shannon, Naomi Long, Sandra Osborne, Michael Fabricant, Nia Griffith and Chris Williamson present the Bill.
John McDonnell accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 28 February, and to be printed (Bill 131).
Defence Reform Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 252 / Noes: 306 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:15 - The House divided: - Ayes: 235 / Noes: 315 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 2—Duties and powers of reserve forces and cadets associations—
‘(1) The Reserve Forces Act 1996 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 113(1) insert—
“(1A) In deciding which of the matters set out under subsection (2) should be transferred or assigned to the associations, the Secretary of State should take account of—
(a) the cost effectiveness of associations as compared with wider defence operations; and
(b) the ownership of the particular site.”.’.
New clause 3—Report on Future Reserves 2020—
‘(1) Within one month of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State shall make and lay before Parliament a report on the viability and cost effectiveness of the plans set out in Reserves in the Future Force 2020: Valuable and Valued, Cmd 8655, together with his recommendation on its further implementation.
(2) Further implementation of the plans shall be halted 40 days after the laying of the report unless both Houses shall have resolved to approve the recommendation from the Secretary of State contained in the report.’.
Provides for a Government report detailing the viability and cost-effectiveness of the plans set out in the White Paper on Reserves (Cmd 8655). Both Houses must approve the report and the Secretary of State’s subsequent recommendation in order for the implementation of the reforms to reserve forces to continue.
New clause 4—Mental health provision for members of the reserve forces—
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall publish annually an analysis of mental health provision for members and former members of the reserve forces.
(2) The report shall include information and annual spend on such services.
(3) The Secretary of State shall within one year of this Act coming into force bring forward proposals clarifying provisions for the transfer of medical records belonging to former members of the reserve forces to the NHS and for the monitoring of the health needs of former members of the reserve forces.’.
New clause 6—Leave entitlement for reserve forces—
‘(1) The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 63C insert—
“63CA Right to time off for reserve forces
(1) An employee who is a member of a reserve force (as defined in section 374 of the Armed Forces Act 2006) is entitled to be permitted by his employer to take time off during the employee’s working hours in order to undertake training activities connected to the reserve force.
(2) An employee’s entitlement to time off under subsection (1) is limited to 14 days maximum.
(3) An employee is not entitled to paid remuneration by his employer for time off under subsection (1).
(4) This section does not apply to employees of companies with fewer than 50 employees.
63CB Complaints to employment tribunals
‘(1) An employee may present a complaint to an employment tribunal that his employer has unreasonably refused to permit him to take time off as required by section 63CA.
(2) An employment tribunal shall not consider a complaint under this section unless it is presented—
(a) before the end of the period of three months beginning with the day on which the time off was taken or on which it is alleged the time off should have been permitted, or
(b) within such further period as the tribunal considers reasonable in a case where it is satisfied that it was not reasonably practicable for the complaint to be presented before the end of that period of three months.
(3) Where an employment tribunal finds a complaint under this section well-founded, the tribunal shall make a declaration to that effect.”.’.
A reservist would be entitled to two weeks statutory additional unpaid leave from their employment (where the company has more than 50 employees) for the purpose of reserve forces training, for which they shall receive their military pay.
New clause 7—Publication of data on reserves—
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall publish quarterly recruitment figures and trained strength numbers of the reserve forces against adjusted quarterly targets.’.
Amendment 3, in clause 49, page 31, line 32, leave out ‘1 to 3’ and insert ‘1 and 2’.
Amendment 4, page 31, line 35, at end insert—
‘(2A) Part 3 shall not come into force unless the receommendation referred to in section Report on Future Reserves 2020 has been approved by both Houses, and may then be brought into force on such day or days as the Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument appoint.’.
Mr Brazier
It is a huge pleasure to speak to new clause 1. Let me also say how much I enjoyed serving on the Public Bill Committee, through which we were so well guided by the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne).
New clause 1 seeks to establish, on a permanent basis, a power for the council of the reserve forces and cadets associations to report annually to this House and the Secretary of State on the state of the reserves, and will restore to the reserves a powerful independent voice.
I hope you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, if I give the House a bit of history. In 1908, when that great reforming Secretary of State, Haldane, set up the Territorial Force, as it was then called, on its modern basis, it was recognised that if the force was established simply under the Regular Army, it would not prosper. Therefore, the county associations—what we now call the RFCAs—were given control of recruiting and property management for the TF, as it then was. Just six years later, at the outbreak of the first world war, there were 250,000 Territorials stood to arms. Thirty units went over to the continent in the first wave. Sir John French, our commander over on the continent, remarked:
“Without the assistance which the Territorials afforded between October 1914 and June 1915, it would have been impossible to hold the line in France and Belgium.”
Sir John French was of course referring to the beginning of the war, but even at that stage, the same split view, which I am afraid we still see today, existed in the Regular Army. Lord Kitchener, as Secretary of State, announced on the very day that he took up his post that he could
“take no account of anything but Regular soldiers”.
He derided the Territorial Force, which was already fighting over in France, as “a town clerk’s army” and said that it got its orders from “Lord Mayors’ parlours”. However, had it not been for the vigorous lobbying of Parliament by the county associations—the forerunners of the RFCAs, with which my new clause deals—his efforts simply to break up the TF and use it as a source of spare parts for the Regular Army would have been successful, and the remarkable process whereby it delivered almost half our fighting units by the end of the war and scored 71 Victoria Crosses in the process would never have happened.
The system continued for nearly a century. Indeed, in 2003-04, by far the largest deployment of reservists in post-second world war history took place. At one point, one fifth of all our forces in Iraq and, just afterwards, one eighth of all our forces in Afghanistan were from the reserves. It is no accident that two years ago the RFCA council elected as its chairman General Sir Robin Brims. The RFCAs elect people to such positions and have a structure that would be recognisable to those in all parts of the House. It is almost like a party structure, although RFCAs are not party political. General Brims commanded the remarkable capture of Basra. Getting into the centre of the city was an almost bloodless exercise and almost the only thing that went seriously right in the British engagement in Iraq. His deputy is Major General Simon Lalor, who is known to a number of people in the House and who headed the reserves very effectively during the last two years of the Labour Government.
Mr Brazier
I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman nodding.
More recently in Afghanistan, General John Lorimer—he is our current commander there, but at that stage he was a brigade commander—made the following comment on a Territorial Army company that was put under his command:
“Somme Company was an outstanding body of men: well trained, highly motivated and exceptionally well led.”
Sadly, however, for a number of years the Territorials have lost their voice and position. Crucially, in 2006, their control of recruiting was taken away from them and given to the Regular Army.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way at this early stage in the debate. I hope it might be helpful if I indicate to the House at this stage that we are minded to accept the principle of his new clause 1. Indeed—[Laughter.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) laughs. We have already made arrangements to receive independent reports from the RFCAs on an annual basis; my hon. Friend is suggesting placing that requirement in statute. On reflection, we consider that to be a sensible idea that will strengthen the programme for the growth and reinvigoration of our reserves. I hope that making that clear to my hon. Friend at the beginning will help to set the tone for today’s debate.
Mr Brazier
May I express my thanks to my right hon. Friend? I am delighted by that, and I know that the knowledge that the reserve units out there will once again have a powerful independent voice will make a difference. When I talk about some of the current problems, people will understand just how much that voice matters every bit as much as it did in 1914.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I pay tribute to the work he has done over the years on the reservists. Can he explain why, when the Opposition tabled an amendment in Committee that asked for figures to be—
Mr Brazier
I do not think the gathering of individual statistics should be a statutory matter, but the fact is that the Government have made a perfectly clear pledge that they are going to publish them. The crucial thing from the point of view of the ordinary reservist is that this body, which is elected by former reservists and respected by them as a body that effectively looked after their interests for nearly a century, is back with a really crucial position, able to make this report. When it visits the Army Recruiting Group, it will be heard with considerably more authority when it is known that it will be put on a permanent statutory basis and will be able to tell us what is really going on. I would like to say, however, that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has taken a close interest in this matter, which I respect.
The plain fact is that when the Regular Army took over recruiting in 2006, the numbers collapsed. The collecting of statistics collapsed, too, and the structure made no serious effort to address the challenges it was taking on. It simply raided the budget and used it for Regulars. To provide just one example, from 2006 to this day—it is now seven years on—Army recruiting offices are open only from 9 to 5.30 Monday to Friday, so they are not even available for people with civilian jobs.
A number of other things happened at the same time. There was a steady reduction in the flow of equipment to the reserves. There was a huge cut in the training budget. In 2009, we almost lost the whole training budget for the Reserves for six months, and I pay tribute to a small number of colleagues on both sides of the House who supported us in that battle. Worst of all, from 2009, all deployments of formed bodies to Afghanistan stopped—echoing the argument that had taken place at the outset of the first world war—and units were effectively told, “You are just here to act as part-time personnel agencies for the Regular Army”. That really destroyed much of the Territorial Army’s officer corps.
I strongly support what the Government are trying to do with the reserves. The House will know how much I am in favour of a rebalancing. I also commend many things that have taken place: the equipment is improving; there has been a huge increase in the funds available for training, particularly for collective training; and there have been some interesting initiatives at Sandhurst, under the charismatic leadership of the recently appointed Commandant, General Tim Evans. He started a number of improvements in officer training, one of which was the personal brain child of the Chief of the General Staff—taking people through the training in a single eight-week package, timed to coincide with the summer vacation in universities. The pairing of units is another initiative.
The Army Recruiting Group, however, has not got its act together; it is every bit as disorganised as it has always been. I hope the House will forgive me if I give just one example in detail to show just how hopeless it is. When the RFCAs lost their recruiting brief, the requirement for medicals, which had been very efficiently organised, disappeared. Suddenly last year, as part of common selection, it was announced that the Territorials were to do medicals, too. A system was set up, using the NHS as the old one had done, but in a fashion that had not even been cleared by the lawyers in relation to the Data Protection Act 1998. It was completely unworkable. People were told to take a form to their GP and get him to sign it off and send it in. So inefficient was this system that GPs did not know what to do. If units rang up to see what was going on, they were breaching the Data Protection Act. The system was so hopeless that a unit I know well—for obvious reasons, I will not say which—that had had an average of 48 successful enlistees per quarter in the months up to that change, saw a rising trend in applicants turn into just eight enlistees per quarter in the subsequent quarters.
I could go on and on. The software is unworkable; Ministers have already acknowledged that. Unfortunately, that compounds the problems at the recruiting centres. Because it is de facto impossible for somebody to do the form online on their own—if they make one mistake, their application is lost in cyberspace—it has to be done either at recruiting centres or in the units. The recruiting centres, of course, are not available.
Mr Speaker
It was good of the hon. Gentleman to remind the hon. Lady of her own name.
Heather Wheeler
I forget many things, Mr Speaker.
Having sat in Committee week in, week out, with my hon. Friend, it is fascinating to note that it has taken this Bill, proposing this reform to bring all the discrepancies of the past out into the open, and indeed to bring things together with a new form of Territorial Army and a new form of reservists. I give great credit to my hon. Friend for his perseverance throughout the Committee stage; he attended as much as he possibly could and provided helpful background to our understanding of the Bill. My question to him is this: does he find it as interesting as I do that it has taken this Bill to show what a mess all the previous discrepancies were?
Mr Brazier
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her kind words. My essential point is that Parliament recognised, when the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907 was put through, that reservist recruitment would never work if it were simply run by the Regular Army. It does not work. There is no reserve army anywhere in the world that is effectively run by its regular counterpart. We need a strong independent body. This new clause, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has generously said he will accept, will put the body that used to do this job very effectively into a powerful position as inspectors.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
For the record, it is not just a question of the mess that it all was; it is a question of the mess that it still is. My understanding is that the new clause will help to put the mess right.
Mr Brazier
I am not sure that I heard the last few words of the hon. Lady’s intervention; would she mind repeating it, as I could not quite hear?
Mr Brazier
A whole string of changes affecting the recruiting group are already taking place, and I am sure that the Secretary of State will address some of them. The key point—I am really grateful for the hon. Lady’s support in signing my new clause and in raising questions in the Select Committee and so forth—is that we would not have lost 18 months if people had listened to the RFCAs, to which all this was painfully obvious 18 months ago, instead of having some regular officers arrogantly cracking on without talking to the units or the RFCAs.
Mr Brazier
I hope my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) will understand if I take an intervention first from my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood).
Mr Ellwood
I would be happy to give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), but that would be out of order. I declare an interest as a member of the reserves and a former member of the regulars. I am able to relate to what is being said by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). Does he recall in his time that the recruitment officers were manned by “the sick, lame and lazy”, as they were called? These were the people in the regular battalions who were sent to the recruitment offices because they could not keep up with the rest of the battalion. Would he like to see the commander taking a greater interest in who is signed up as a yardstick for promotion, so that numbers are kept up to par?
Mr Brazier
I have some sympathy with my hon. Friend’s point, but to be honest, the long-term solution is to sort the software out so that people do not have to go into the recruitment offices at all.
Nicholas Soames
First of all, the country and the Territorial Army owe my hon. Friend an enormous debt for everything he has done over the years, often under difficult circumstances, to promote their interests and to try to get things right. It is the case—and has remained the case for a distressingly long time—that there has been a very unsatisfactory attitude between the Regulars and the reservists. This has got to end. It has to end in a proper way, with the new proposed structure. Does my hon. Friend agree that all the points he raises about recruiting are correct? Things got off to a bad start; it has not been a success. However, I am told that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State went to Upavon the other day and read the riot act. I am quite clear—I know from my own experience as honorary colonel of a TA squadron—that the situation is already beginning to improve and will continue to do so.
Mr Brazier
Indeed. I strongly agree with my right hon. and gallant Friend, and thank him for his kind words.
Mr Philip Hammond
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. I cannot resist following up the intervention of our hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). When I went to Upavon a couple of weeks ago, I found that a number of limbless ex-Afghanistan veterans had been integrated into the call centre and were managing the online process. I noted that they were able to use their own military experience to encourage and support the young recruits whom they were mentoring online.
Mr Brazier
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. Not only is it good for the veterans to be integrated into the call centre while remaining in a military environment, but, crucially, the fact that the job is being done by people with military experience makes a huge difference. That is a message which, in a different context, I have tried to get across to our police force in Kent from time to time.
I do not want to speak for too long, because a great many other Members wish to contribute to the debate, but I should like to look abroad for a moment. It is no accident that the Haldane reforms came just after similar reforms in America which established the National Guard Bureau, just three years before the power was given to the forerunners of the RFCAs by the House of Commons. I have been privileged to visit National Guard units on operations in Afghanistan, and to see them doing various kinds of work. One airborne cavalry unit was mentoring the police, and an infantry unit from Virginia—whose origins, incidentally, date back to before American independence—was deploying its platoons along the Pakistani border, protecting aid posts there. Those units were able to bring to those jobs something that regular soldiers could not have brought to them.
“Losing Small Wars” is a book by Frank Ledwidge, who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. It refers to a catalogue of things that went wrong with the British presence in Iraq and, in the early years, in Afghanistan. One of the saddest aspects of the book is that it paints a picture of the Army not as it used to be, when it was quintessentially good at dealing with civilian populations all over the world. The fact that our Army was entirely unable to relate to the population in Iraq—in particular, it failed to recognise the murderous nature of the Iraqi police—was fundamental to our problems there. By contrast, National Guard units, which contain, for instance, police officers, business men and farmers, related very well to their local areas.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
I must challenge my hon. Friend at this point. In fact, the experience in Iraq was often that the British Territorial Army units had considerably more expertise than the National Guard units. In al-Amarah, for example, they had water engineers serving as majors and development specialists serving as corporals. I think that we should take much more pride in what the TA was able to do in Iraq, often outperforming the National Guard units on the ground.
Mr Brazier
I am delighted that my hon. Friend has intervened and put me right. I was not drawing a parallel between the National Guard and the British TA. By the stage when things were starting to unravel, the TA deployment, which had been large at the beginning, was very small. It is true that the TA punched above its weight. I have heard General Abraham, who currently leads the transition process, pay tribute to a military police TA sub-unit which was briefly under his command, while also making the point that it was only briefly: the presence was all-regular most of the time. However, because at one stage just over half the American deployment consisted of reservists, and because, typically, the regulars would capture the ground—and provided the surge—but the National Guard would hold ground, it was possible to introduce a range of different skills across a much larger number of people. Given my hon. Friend’s constituency, I could refer to agriculture and the role that the farmers in the National Guard played, most of them in infantry combat units rather than specialist units.
Let me now say a little about new clause 2, which, I hasten to add, I shall not be pressing, as it could not possibly become law. It is merely an attempt to initiate a short debate about property.
Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I had hoped to speak in the debate, but those of us who are serving on a Committee will not be able to do so.
Before my hon. Friend moves on to new clause 2, may I make a point about new clause 1? The principle behind the change in the proportion of reserves to regulars was exactly right: it brought us into line with many more contemporary countries. The proviso, in practice, was that the reduction in the number of regulars would not take place until we saw the necessary improvements in training, equipping and numbers in the Reserves. The problem for the House of Commons was that we had very little information to go on when it came to assessing the decision. I therefore congratulate my hon. Friend on tabling new clause 1, which will provide the transparency that will enable the House to make that assessment. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his wisdom in accepting a new clause that will give the House a good deal more pertinent information than it would have had otherwise.
Mr Brazier
I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for his tribute. I understand how strongly he and a number of other Members feel about the timing of the decision. However, although he and I—and, I am sure, the Secretary of State in his private heart of hearts—would like more money to be spent on defence, it is a question of the cash envelope within which any Government are likely to operate. If we wound up the whole Territorial Army tomorrow, it would be possible to pay for only 6,000 or 7,000 regulars rather than 20,000, and that would mean losing most of our medical capability as well as a number of other benefits.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I accept what my hon. Friend has said about the MOD’s cash envelope, but surely this comes down to national priorities. The plan was not to wind down the regulars to such a degree without first ensuring that the reservists could take their place, but the plan has changed. None of the new clauses and amendments is asking for extra money from the MOD. It is, as I have said, a question of national priorities: it is a question of whether more money should be committed to defence, which is the first priority of Government.
Mr Brazier
I will respond to my hon. Friend’s intervention, but I hope he will forgive me if I leave it for a couple of minutes. I shall deal briefly with new clause 2, and then I shall come to his new clause.
Ever since Haldane, the reserve properties of the Army, but not all those of the other two services, have been managed largely by the RFCA. The fact is that the Defence Infrastructure Organisation—or the Defence Estates, as it used to be called—has a poor track record. There are so many quotations available that I am spoilt for choice, but according to the latest report from the National Audit Office,
“Defence Estates is not well placed to weigh up and challenge Budget Holders assessments of estate requirements.”
While I am certain that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his team will sort out the problems, two quite different jobs are involved. We do not want an organisation whose job is to look after super-garrisons to be worrying about repairing the roof of a cadet hut. The vast number of locations—2,500—across which reserves and cadets are spread need to be looked after by a local organisation with local feel, which can call on local expertise, often free of charge, and which, above all, has a low overhead. As I have said, new clause 2 could not become law, but I wanted to put those points on the record.
I now come to the new clause tabled by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), who has fought a very good-tempered campaign, and one that I respect although I disagree with him. It is no secret that I stepped down as a Cabinet Parliamentary Private Secretary 20 years ago because I was unhappy about “Options for Change”. I would dearly love to see more money spent on defence, and I know that my hon. Friend would as well, but the reality is that the money is not there. Despite all the Secretary of State’s battles, the fact remains that no Treasury team that is likely to take charge will give us more money. The effect of my hon. Friend’s new clause would be not to guarantee a larger Regular Army, but to devastate our attempts to rebuild the reserve forces by putting them all on hold.
My hon. Friend must be familiar with his own wording. Are we to push to one side the plans for better training and better equipment? Are reservists, many of whom have served on operations and have struggled through a difficult period with no kit and no training, suddenly to be told. “This has all been put on hold, because the House of Commons wants it all to be looked at again”? The people to look at it are the RFCAs, and the Secretary of State has generously said that he will arrange for that to happen.
Mr Baron
My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way, and I appreciate the tone in which he is setting out his case, but may I address his central point by reminding him that the delay or postponement—the pause—need not be long at all because the report could be laid before Parliament the day after the Bill becomes an Act, and then it is up to the Government to decide how promptly we can scrutinise that report? The pause may not be long at all, and as for all the other comments about wrecking amendments and that this would turn the plans upside down, they are wide of the mark—they are Aunt Sallies—that do not do the Government’s cause any good.
Mr Brazier
I wish I could show my hon. Friend some of the e-mails and texts I received before the debate. I know this is not his intention, but if Parliament passes his amendment, that will strike a hammer-blow to morale in the TA. Many Members on both sides of the House are concerned about the future of the reserve forces. Many Labour Members fought very hard when we were having the battles towards the end of the last Labour Government, and I am delighted that the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), is present, as he took a very close personal interest in this, and I note that the problems that arose at the end were not of his making. I urge Members on both sides of the House to think very seriously before they send that message to the reserve forces.
Mr Ellwood
This Bill is the starting gun for allowing TA recruitment to move from 18,000 to 30,000. Anything that is done to delay that recruitment will cause confusion in the TA, and that is exactly what we do not want at this difficult time of change.
Mr Brazier
I thoroughly agree with my hon. and gallant Friend.
I want to bring my remarks to an end as many other Members wish to speak. A number of noteworthy people have come through the Territorials and the other reserves—I have said nothing yet about the RAF and naval reserves. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), was recently commissioned into the Royal Naval Reserve and the Air Force Reserves heritage goes back to two of the three highest scoring fighter squadrons in the battle of Britain. The reserves have produced a number of distinguished individuals, including the grandfather of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex, Sir Winston Churchill, and our greatest general in the last war, Bill Slim. People fondly imagine he was a regular officer who went to Sandhurst. He was not; he was a Territorial who sneaked in through the back door of the Birmingham officer training corps because his brother was a student there and nobody realised he was not a student too. There is also David Stirling, who founded the SAS. Again, people think of him as a Scots Guards officer. Yes, he was; he was a Scots Guards reservist. He had done his officer training at Ampleforth combined cadet force and then, through mountaineering, he had developed the qualities of character and team leadership that were so vital for setting up the SAS.
There are three reasons why we need reservists. First, because we can keep far more capability if we keep some of it at much lower cost—about a fifth of the cost—at lower readiness. Secondly, because they bring the energies, extra skills and imaginations of the wider civilian community into the armed forces. Thirdly, because that keeps the link with the local communities, which just after Remembrance Sunday we should all remember.
New clause 1 will give a strong independent voice back to the reserves. I am very grateful to the Government for accepting it and I must ask the House once more not to be persuaded by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay on new clause 3, because that will send a devastating message to the Reserve forces.
Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
I am a signatory to new clause 1, and I want to make a simple statement about its power. It will provide an independent element to the scrutiny of the whole process that comes back to Parliament. The debates that we will now have about new clause 3 and other things must be based on the truth on the ground; they must be based on the reality and an understanding so as to inform the decision making properly. This amendment is about doing that and also about cementing consent from the public and involvement of the public in building the consensus that we require to develop the quality of reserve recruitment into the Army, RAF and Navy and to make a whole force that is properly integrated. If we do not have that consent, we will not achieve that. If the amendment helps to provide that, it will be valuable and important. I am glad some Damascene conversion has taken place and the Government have now recognised the sense in accepting the amendment.
Mr Baron
New clause 3 and consequential amendments tabled in my name and those of other hon. Members will, if successful, postpone the implementation of the Government’s reservist plans until their viability and cost-effectiveness have been scrutinised and accepted by Parliament. I should clarify what these amendments are not about, because a number of Aunt Sallys have been proposed by various interested parties. Contrary to some claims and implications, these are not wrecking amendments; they are not designed to scupper, reverse or tear up the Army reserve plans, and they are certainly not an attempt to recreate, or go back to, Victorian-style and size armies. These arguments are Aunt Sallys that do not do the Government’s cause any good.
I also want to make it clear that if these amendments are passed the delay to the Army reserve plans could be kept to an absolute minimum if the Government allowed prompt scrutiny of the report. There is no intention to drag this out or turn it into a campaign that goes on for months and months. The report could be produced the day after the Bill becomes an Act and we could have a debate in this place within weeks. I have to say that the stories that this is scuppering the Army reserve plans or reversing them are very wide of the mark.
Mr Philip Hammond
As the House may imagine, my hon. Friend and I have discussed these issues at some length. I think he will acknowledge that while a debate could be held in short order the requirement is for the Government to carry the House at the end of that debate. Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that the Government would have to get that vote through before we could progress with the reserves agenda, and setting out that hurdle today would send a negative signal to the reserves community, which has heard a message of reinvigoration and growth for the future?
Mr Baron
I will very directly answer both those questions. I completely agree that the report the Government would submit would be subject to the scrutiny of this House and a vote, but the fact that the Secretary of State seems concerned about that points to a bigger story about the reforms. If the Government are concerned that they might not carry the House as to the logic of their report, I suggest that that shows a weak point. I therefore suggest that the Secretary of State should, perhaps, not pursue that argument for too long, because for the Government not to accept this amendment because they are concerned they might not be able to carry the House tells a bigger story.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I am very concerned about that point because if the Government are saying they think they have real problems with this and they might not carry Parliament, the Executive are trying to implement something that Parliament does not approve of, and that is totally unacceptable.
Mr Baron
I agree with my hon. Friend. The restructuring of other areas of government, such as the NHS, has been subject to the scrutiny of this place, yet here we are undertaking a major restructuring—the Secretary of State cannot disagree with that—of the Army and we are not prepared to subject it to that scrutiny, apparently for fear that we might not carry the House. It is not a very good reason.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Surely, this is a common sense approach, and to say it will cause confusion among the reserves is borderline ridiculous, because they are quite capable of rationalising things for themselves.
Mr Baron
I very much agree. I sometimes think in this place, where there is no shortage of former serving soldiers, that Front Benchers can be a little too sensitive about how stoical troops are. Their job is to get on with it, particularly if they are professional soldiers. They know these debates are taking place, but they get on with the job in hand, because that is what they are paid to do.
Mr Philip Hammond
Would my hon. Friend not accept, though, that there is no attempt to avoid scrutiny here? By indicating that I will accept the intention of our hon. Friends’ new clause 1 and legislate to require an annual independent report—not for a limited period, but as a permanent arrangement—we are in effect creating a mechanism whereby annually the House will receive a progress report on the state of the reserves, and I would expect the House to debate that progress report. That will provide the level of scrutiny that he seeks. What we cannot accept is the destabilisation of the programme that introducing an artificial hurdle—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Interventions need to be brief. The Secretary of State is an experienced Member of the House, and he knows that. Also, it would be good if he addressed the whole House, particularly the Chair, not just the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron).
Mr Baron
What the Secretary of State cannot get away from, however, is that this is not that sort of report. It would be the equivalent of a speech to the House followed by questions; it would not be subject to proper parliamentary scrutiny and a vote. We are talking about proper scrutiny of the plans. We know that things are not going well. Reservist recruitment targets are being badly missed, TA numbers are falling, there is a widening capability gap as a result and we have deviated from the original plan, as was just clearly confirmed by the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox); the original plan was to maintain the regulars until the reservists could take their place, but that has now been scrapped, and as we keep missing the reservist recruitment targets, the capability gap gets ever wider. These are legitimate questions that we in Parliament should be asking, and we need proper scrutiny of the answers the Government are giving. At the end of the day, that is all we are asking for.
As I have said, the report on its own is not enough, because we need proper scrutiny and a vote in the House, and if it does not bear scrutiny, perhaps that tells a wider story. A number of us, on both sides of the House, have tabled these amendments because we have deep-seated concerns that we believe have not been adequately addressed by the Government. I take no pleasure from saying this, but that includes the response to a well-attended general debate in the Chamber only a few weeks ago, when the Government could not muster one single vote in support of their position. One reason was that we put forward a series of questions, but very few, if any, answers came back.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman’s points about scrutiny might be well-intentioned, but new clause 3 talks about further implementation of the plans being halted. What would be the implication for the process already under way of giving reservists access to the armed forces pension scheme? What signal would it send to our reservists if we practically halted the implementation of a widely supported measure to give them better pension provision?
Mr Baron
My hon. Friend will just have to accept that we are suggesting a brief pause. Why should Parliament not be able to ask for a brief pause in a process that is clearly not going to plan, with recruitment targets being missed, an ever-widening capability gap and rising costs? If we all accept that defence is the first duty of Government, which I know we do, it is incumbent on Parliament to ask these questions.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making some perfectly sensible points, many of which I agree with, and I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) that his campaign has been conducted in an extremely measured way. My difficulty with his new clause is that I think it addresses a point he is not that interested in. I think he wants to reduce or stop the running down of the regulars, yet, so far as I can see, his new clause would stop the beneficial changes to the reserves that all of us—including him, I suspect—want to see.
Mr Baron
If I could just answer the question. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) for his kind words, but let us be clear: there have been three major tranches of redundancies in the regulars already. I think a fourth one is due shortly, although I do not know the Secretary of State’s exact intention on that. The plan to replace 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reservists essentially hinges on our ability to recruit those reservists, but the plan is clearly in trouble, and if we do not stop now, if only briefly, to re-examine the logic and ensure it stands up and properly scrutinise the viability and cost-effectiveness of the plan and the widening capability gap, we risk heading towards false economies and unacceptable capability gaps, which people will not thank us for. It is not unwise, therefore, to say, “Pause briefly and let Parliament properly scrutinise these plans.”
Mr Brazier
I have just received another text from a Royal Air Force reservist that reads, “A pause will cause widespread concern”. The problems with recruitment are not about footfall, as I set out in my speech. What message does my hon. Friend have for the officers in a reserve unit who have seen the regular recruitment apparatus block up and wreck their ability to enlist people and who are now being told to stop once more, just as things are starting to move again?
Mr Baron
To save my hon. Friend mentioning texts and e-mails a third time, I can assure him that I have no shortage of texts and e-mails from reservists and members of the TA saying, “Yes, you’re absolutely right. These plans are not working and it would be right to pause and examine them again.” I will happily swap those with him after the debate.
On the effect of my new clause on the morale of the TA, let us consider the present situation. The latest figures, which came out last Thursday, show TA numbers falling, not rising, despite all the expensive recruitment programmes. Then we have the figures—and they are not full figures either; some of them were actually missing—for reserve recruitment going forward. I can tell my hon. Friend that it has got to such a state that the Army Reserve and TA courses scheduled for next January and February have had to be cancelled owing to a lack of recruits. The Secretary of State may be willing to check that, because I heard it very recently in one—in fact, more than one—of the texts and e-mails that my hon. Friend keeps mentioning. That shows the current state of recruitment. I therefore suggest to my hon. Friend that there are fundamental problems with this plan and it is only right that Parliament should scrutinise it more carefully.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
I am a practical individual. In my lifetime, I have lost hundreds of full-time jobs within the armed forces in my constituency, with the latest losses due to air traffic control at Prestwick moving down to Swanwick. That means that there is not a single full-time job within our armed forces in my constituency, whereas before there were hundreds, yet there is still a recruitment centre. What chance is there of recruiting full-time members of the armed forces in my constituency when we have closed down the whole position as regards full-time jobs?
Mr Baron
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I am focusing my remarks on the reservists—that is what the Bill is about—rather than full-time regulars. I suggest that we could very easily reverse the cuts to the regulars because, as things stand, more people are willing to become regular soldiers than reservists.
Mr Brazier
My hon. Friend is of course right that anecdotally one can prove anything. Nevertheless, I will tell him a story from half an hour ago. The last reservist I dealt with before coming to the debate—he is one of the cleverest members of the TA and the kind of person who should be its future—has a brother trying to join the TA who, for 13 months, has had his paperwork lost in the hopeless regulars system. While the TA is trying to struggle with that, it is grossly unfair to tell it that we are putting all this on hold too.
Mr Baron
I completely disagree; it is not grossly unfair at all. In fact, my hon. Friend highlights the fact that we have fundamental problems with the way the system works. If people are having to wait 13 months for computer systems to talk to each other, then that, if anything, reinforces the case that we should be saying, “Let us pause for a moment and properly scrutinise these plans.” That is all we are asking for.
Mr Philip Hammond
I have acknowledged in this House recently and shall do so again later that we have challenges in the recruitment pipeline and problems with the IT systems. We cannot wait until next May to deal with them—we are dealing with them now on a daily, weekly basis. The senior management at the Department and the senior leadership of the Army are all over these problems; they cannot wait until next year for my hon. Friend’s pause.
Mr Baron
My right hon. Friend is ascribing a victory to me before it has taken place. The bottom line is that the new clause, like the Bill, would not take effect until the Act receives Royal Assent in the spring of next year. If he is as confident as he says that this is all going to work out, then he has until the spring of next year, before the Bill becomes an Act, to work on these problems. So I do not buy that one either, I am afraid—it is a not a particularly strong card to play when the new clause, like the Bill, would not take effect until the Act receives Royal Assent.
Rory Stewart
My hon. Friend talks a great deal about pausing, scrutinising and thinking, but would it not be more accurate to say that he has already reached his conclusion and that he wishes to increase the size of the Regular Army? If so, will he confirm that and explain how he intends to pay for it?
Mr Baron
I disagree with my hon. Friend. The intention behind the new clause is very straightforward; it does what it says on the can. These plans are not working and a series of things are going wrong, and it merely says, “Let’s pause for a moment to make sure that the plans stand up to scrutiny in terms of viability and cost-effectiveness so that rising costs do not lead to false economies and we are not opening up ever-widening capability gaps.” I am afraid that my hon. Friend is not quite fair in ascribing such a motive to me.
One of the first questions I would like the Secretary of State to answer is why the plan has changed. As we heard from the former Secretary of State in his own words—it came from his mouth, not mine—the original plan was that the regulars would be held at their current level until the reservists were able to take their place. That plan has changed. To return to a point that several Members have already made, by the end of last year a good number of the regulars had already gone—the final tranche may be next year; we are not sure—and by the end of next year most of the regular units and battalions will have been disbanded. Meanwhile, the reservists are not due to reach adequate strength to take their place until 2018, if present plans are met, but there is every indication that, because we are struggling, we will not even achieve that. That was not the original plan, as the former Secretary of State said. It would be good if, for once, we could get an adequate answer to this question, because we have asked it many times in this House and have not got one.
Let me talk about the recruitment problems. Last Thursday, figures confirmed yet again that TA numbers are in decline—not rising, but in decline. We also know that the Army Reserve recruitment targets are being badly missed, as confirmed in a spate of reports, some derived from leaked MOD documents. Figures due last Thursday regarding Army Reserve recruitment were not released in full. It is clear that the required recruits are not coming forward and that computer problems have added to the problems, as confirmed by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). As everybody can imagine, there has been no shortage of texts and e-mails about this debate, and I have learned in such messages from the north-east that raw recruits to the Reserve have been told that it could take up to 15 months for them to get into uniform once they sign up. These are the sorts of delays we are talking about and which Parliament has every right properly to scrutinise. As even the Secretary of State may not be aware, the Army Reserve courses for January and February have had to be cancelled in their entirety because of lack of recruits. The fact that the Government are offering significant payments to businesses underlines the reluctance of many businesses, particularly smaller businesses, to let valued and key employees go on more frequent and extended deployments. All that is part of the cycle which in itself is adding to costs.
Our concerns are not just about reserve targets not being met; we also have deep-seated concerns about the resulting capability and manpower gaps, which are getting worse as we miss the reserve recruitment targets. Let us take as an example the mobilisation rate. At present, the MOD confirms that the TA mobilisation rate is 40%. In other words, for every 100 reservists there are on paper, the MOD deems that 40 are deployable. That can be to do with fitness, kit, sickness or all sorts of reasons. In order to make the Army Reserve plans work, the mobilisation rate has to double from 40% to 80%. I see nothing in the plans about how that massive increase in the mobilisation rate can be justified or whether it has been costed. It is a massive ask to go from 40% to 80% mobilisation. These questions need to be answered.
There are also concerns about the plan risking capability gaps. The nature of conflict is changing. Many countries that are not necessarily friendly to the west are increasing their military spending, and war is becoming more asymmetrical. Gone are the days of binary conflicts involving good guys versus bad guys—terrorism has ensured that things are much more complex nowadays—and we need professional, mobile, high-readiness, agile forces that are ready to respond to the threats that we face.
Mr Ellwood
My hon. Friend is making an interesting argument. At its core is whether those on the Front Bench made a promise to increase the size of the TA before the regulars were downsized. Did he ever hear the Secretary of State say that he would guarantee that that number of reservists would be recruited before the regulars were downsized by the proposed number?
Mr Baron
I am pleased that my hon. Friend has asked that question. It completely misses the point, and illustrates the weakness of the Front-Bench position. I am not saying for one moment that the present Secretary of State has said anything other than what he has said. My point is that the plan under the previous Secretary of State was very different only two years ago. I do not want to labour this point, but we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset no more than half an hour ago that the original plan was not to wind down the regulars until the reservists were able to take their place. We heard that from his own lips. I do not want to enter into a war of words between the present and former Secretary of State, but we know that the plan has changed over the past couple of years, and that is another reason for scrutinising it.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
Going back to the cost of deploying reservists, the Government have said that they want to increase the percentage who are deployable at any given time from 40% to 80%. “Deployable” does not necessarily mean that they would be ready to be deployed in theatre, however. In many cases, it will mean that they are ready to begin training. I had five months of additional training before I was deployed in theatre. That kind of training involves additional costs, as does the reservist award, so this is not quite as clear-cut as the Secretary of State suggests.
Mr Baron
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. To double the mobilisation is a big enough challenge. The plan represents a fundamental change in another respect, which provides a further reason to scrutinise it in some detail. I am proud to have served alongside TA soldiers, but the bottom line is that they were in large part in-filling. We helped each other along.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Baron
I will not, if my hon. Friend does not mind; I am responding to another intervention.
Those TA soldiers were in-filling, but let us not forget that part of the present plan is to deploy reservists as units. That is very different from what has happened before; it represents yet another whole-scale change to the plan. It is therefore only right that we should scrutinise it in detail.
Oliver Colvile
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I apologise for being late; I have been upstairs in the Northern Ireland Select Committee. What impact would my hon. Friend’s amendment have on the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, both of which play a significant role in my constituency? They have already been the subject of significant cuts, and the Army appears to be being protected as a special case.
Mr Baron
I have made it clear that I shall be taking no more interventions. I think that hon. Members would agree that I have been quite generous in that regard, and I shall now move on because I know that others want to speak. We also need to address another important group of amendments.
The Government’s Army Reserve plans raise many questions on recruitment problems, assumed mobilisation rates and rising costs which could lead to false economies, but one of my greatest concerns is the ever-widening capability gaps that could result from the proposals. If passed, new clause 3 would confirm that the time had come for Parliament properly to scrutinise the Government’s plans. There comes a stage in any struggling project when the evidence and common sense suggest, and perhaps demand, a rethink. We have reached that stage with these plans.
If the Government are confident about their plans—that is what Ministers claim, and I have no problem with that—they should not be afraid of the new clause. Let them present their plans to Parliament, and if their case is as strong as they think it is, Parliament will allow the plans to be passed and the reforms will carry on as intended. However, I urge all Members to support new clause 3 and consequential amendments 3 and 4. I shall seek to press new clause 3 to a vote.
Mr Ainsworth
I offer profound congratulations to the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), not just for the concession he has achieved today but for the formidable way he has pursued this issue over the years. He harassed me when I was in office—I perhaps remember that with a fondness I never felt at the time—and has continued to harass his own Government and the defence establishment on the issue of the reserves and the role they can play in the country’s defence. No matter who wants to claim credit for some of the changes now being brought about, he can feel real satisfaction at something very few Back Benchers can say they have been able to do: profoundly to change a significant area of Government policy. He has most certainly done that through his work on the reserves over the years.
I totally support the hon. Gentleman’s new clause 1 and am enormously pleased that the Secretary of State has accepted it. I also support new clause 3, and I have to say that I believe the Secretary of State is being a little heavy-handed in suggesting that to support it is somehow to sabotage the direction of the Army or to play politics with the defence of the realm. I say that as a former Secretary of State who had to put up with allegations by the then loyal Opposition that I had deliberately delayed life-saving vehicles getting to our troops in Afghanistan. It is enormously important—particularly in the field of defence, where there is such a degree of cross-party support—that the Government’s own defence of their policies is somewhat measured, but I am not at all sure it has been in this regard. We can all read: we can see what new clause 3 says and does not say. As I say, my respect for the hon. Member for Canterbury is about as high as an Opposition Member’s can be for a Government Member, and I have not heard from him, or from anybody else here today, anything to suggest that the new clause does all the terrible things it is said to bring about.
New clause 3 calls for a report within a particular time frame after the Bill has been enacted, and a pause if Parliament does not accept it. It does no more than that. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) may have an agenda that is not mine—I do not know—because I support the general direction of policy in this area wholeheartedly. This development could bring about huge improvements in capability. I see nothing to justify the counter-argument that is being made.
Mr Brazier
I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his generous treatment of me, as leader of the all-party group for the reserve forces and cadets, which made the campaigning possible. The effect of this would be to send a message to those regular officers, many of them serving, who have rubbished this proposal for the past year and a half to the press off the record—they are a minority within the Regular Army but a significant one, some of whom the right hon. Gentleman will know—that if this can be kept down for just a little bit longer, they may get some regular manpower back instead.
Mr Ainsworth
The effect can and should be that this House is enormously interested in the development of the Reserves and wants to see their capability properly developed and scrutinised—and no more than that. That should be the message, and I do not think there is anybody in the House who is responsible for another message that I know of, other than the defence being offered by Government Front Benchers in the overreaction, as I see it, to new clause 3.
Martin Horwood
I am very grateful to the former Minister for giving way—[Hon. Members: “Secretary of State.”] Former Secretary of State; I beg the right hon. Gentleman’s pardon. He obviously has great knowledge of these issues, but on one he is quite wrong. He says that new clause 3 calls only for a report, but it does not. It is quite explicit: it calls for “Further implementation of the plans” to be “halted”. Why does the Labour party appear to be supporting the interruption of access to better pension provision and explicitly interrupting access to paid leave for training? Surely, that is not what he intends.
Mr Ainsworth
The new clause calls for a pause in certain circumstances, if the House has not been persuaded. To me, it gives time scales that are perfectly achievable, so I reject what the hon. Gentleman says.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
Let us be clear: we are not talking about any conflict or preference for reserves or regulars; we are talking about numbers, competency and capability for the defence of the realm. What we need to be assured of—but which this House, largely, is not confident we have—is that the Government’s plans will provide us with the necessary numbers, competency and capability. That is what the pause is about. It is not a throwing away of the plan: it is a pause.
Mr Ainsworth
The growth of the reserve element in all the services has huge potential benefits, such as a connection with the population at large that the small regular armed forces that we inevitably have today and will have tomorrow can never achieve on its own. Equally, as other Members have said, it brings skills into the armed forces that cannot be kept up to date within the regulars themselves. So there are those potential improvements.
Government Members have talked about a potential gap of three years, but it is not just a question of that: I am worried about the potential ongoing downgrading of capability if we do not get this right. In order to get into the reserves the calibre of people that will be absolutely necessary for the kind of operations we have unfortunately had to carry out in recent years, and will undoubtedly have to carry out in future, the skills required by every rank must not only remain at their current level, but must improve. That is for the obvious and simple reason, which everybody knows, that the huge reputational damage to such operations, to our armed forces and to our nation, of errors in such operations can be profound. We must therefore ensure, given the cuts that are inevitably taking place, that we maintain within the regulars the quality of not only the original recruits but of the training given to them, in order to lift capability. We are blessed with armed forces with a capability level that, in some ways, is higher than that in any other nation on earth, in my opinion, but it will need to be higher still.
Mr Ellwood
I have a lot of respect for the right hon. Gentleman and the experience he gained as Secretary of State, but I genuinely worry that he is fighting the last war. The conduct of warfare has changed. I hope he would agree that we will not be doing “boots on the ground” in the manner in which we have done so badly in Afghanistan and Iraq. The size of armed forces concertinas—it has done so over the past 400 years. I hope he would agree that withdrawal from Afghanistan will have a huge impact on the size of the standing Army, both Regular and Territorial, and batting for the old numbers that we had five years ago is out of touch.
Mr Ainsworth
I totally accept that. I like to study history and I know that after conflicts, the services—generally the Army more than the other services, but those, too—have generally been decimated in times of peace, only to have to be regenerated in times of danger thereafter. So I am not trying to fight the last war. I am saying that as we struggle with these enormous economic challenges and the cuts that are almost inevitable, we have to do everything we can to maintain the quality of our personnel. That applies to the regular forces as it applies to the reserves. Even at a time of downsizing, we can surely do that—we have to try to do it because of the reputational damage that inevitably flows from our failure to do so. There is nothing “yesterday” or “last war” about that approach; this is about the kind of operations we could be involved in tomorrow, of whatever scale, and the need for quality personnel.
New clause 3 calls for a level of scrutiny that is wholly justified by the importance of the decisions, and the changes of direction and structure, that we are implementing and that the hon. Member for Canterbury has fought for so valiantly and successfully for so long. That is why I support it, even if he does not.
Mr Arbuthnot
As I have said before, my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) has made some sensible points that need to be taken seriously. I recall my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) telling the House that the regulars would not be reduced until the reserves had been built up to take their place. He said:
“of course, the rate at which we are able to build up the reserves will determine the rate at which we are able to change the ratio with the regulars.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 9.]
That was a good thing for him to say.
Mr Ellwood
Was that before or after a decision was taken to downsize fundamentally our contribution to the international security assistance force in Afghanistan?
Mr Arbuthnot
From memory, I believe it came after that decision, but I cannot be certain. It was a good thing for the then Secretary of State to say. Quite apart from that, it is a good thing for Governments to keep their promises. However, I thought I should briefly tell the House why I shall be voting with the Government tonight. First, as my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) said, although new clause 3 highlights the problem, it does not provide the answer. I think that what my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay really wants to achieve is not the halting of changes to the reserves, but the halting of changes to the regulars, which his proposal does not mention.
Mr Baron
My proposal does not mention the regulars because the Bill is about the reservists. A couple of hon. Members have suggested motives for these proposals which I cannot agree with. The bottom line is that most of those regulars—this is my understanding and I am willing to stand corrected—have been disbanded in any case. Let me be clear about what my proposal says, because motives that I do not take kindly to are being attributed to it. The proposal is about saying that these plans are not working and we should take time, if only a brief amount of it, to scrutinise them properly to check for their viability and cost-effectiveness. That is the right thing to do—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Gentleman has now made his point several times in one intervention, so I call James Arbuthnot.
Mr Arbuthnot
As I am coming on to discuss the reserves and why I think they are so important, I should perhaps declare an interest, in that my daughter is a second lieutenant in the Territorial Army. I think it is essential that we should change the reserves, boosting them, their numbers, their training and the equipment available to them. As a Defence Minister in the previous Conservative Government, I thought that that Government went too far in reducing the reserves, and I think that the previous Labour Government made the situation worse. It is high time that we begin again to build up and properly resource the reserves. I wish to pay particular tribute to two people, the first of whom is my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames). When he was Minister of State for the Armed Forces, he valiantly championed the Territorials and found himself fighting rather a losing battle.
Even more, I wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, who, as a Back Bencher—the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) made the point—has achieved more in supporting and championing the reserves than I or my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex did, when we were Ministers. My hon. Friend’s contribution to the reserves debate deserves an immediate dukedom. [Interruption.] Yes, a dukedom.
The reserves bring incredible value to this country. They bring vital specialist skills which are made contemporary by their civilian lives and they bring those skills to a changing world where they are essential. Crucially, as my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury said, the reserves also tie the civilian world into the military world in a way that is becoming increasingly needed day by day. May I aim a shaft at my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State by saying that his clampdown on informal discussion between the military and politicians rather flies in the face of that need?
My second reason for supporting the Government is that wars are changing. We are increasingly less likely to see tank battles in Germany and increasingly more likely to be facing the emerging threats of cyber-attack, piracy and the covert destruction of our critical national infrastructure—the sort of things to which extra battalions of any particular regiment would not be the answer.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making an important point about cyber-security capability. Is not one of the strong arguments for reserve forces that a lot of skills reside in the private sector, in things such as cyber-security and dealing with cyber-attack, which need to be brought into the armed forces? That is a strong argument for continuing to develop reserve forces.
Mr Arbuthnot
My hon. Friend is right about that. The new cyber-command that has recently been brought on stream will achieve precisely what he describes. It will not be possible to achieve that expertise within a purely military environment; we have to rely on those who have civilian expertise, too. Because of all this, we will need new investment, in satellites and in software—in the sort of things that will not be visible to the man in the street—all at the same time as we are trying to sell to the public increased spending on defence. That will be difficult to achieve while we are reducing in Afghanistan.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend also agree that reservists who come from a commercial background will bring different working practices. That will be incredibly important as we begin to get ourselves ready for this expansion.
Mr Arbuthnot
Indeed. My hon. Friend’s constituency experience is very important in this.
The money for the investment to deal with emerging threats and emerging skills has to come from somewhere. I make no secret of the fact that I would like to see increased spending on defence. However, it is wholly unrealistic to expect that when every extra pound going on defence has to be added to an already increasing national debt. The Government are bringing down not the national debt but the rate at which it is going up. We cannot expect to have increased spending on defence, so money has to come from within the defence budget. That means reducing both waste and people. I hate saying that, but it is real life. I do not want any pause in the boosting of reserves. I want the building up of both them and their proper resources.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr Arbuthnot
I am sorry that my hon. Friend does not recognise a peroration when he hears it. I am just bringing my remarks to an end, but I will give way.
Mr Binley
My right hon. Friend is very kind. I have heard a lot about the Army and reservists, but little about small and medium-sized enterprises. We need to look at that particular aspect. I know little about defence, but a lot about SMEs, and I know about the damage that can be caused if we take one man out of a five-man team in an SME. I do not believe that the Minister has thought enough about that particular impact. One reason for a pause is so that the Secretary of State, through you, Madam Speaker, can relook at his whole connection with small and medium-sized businesses. He should look at the incentives that are given, because they are simply nowhere near enough.
Mr Arbuthnot
I must apologise to my hon. Friend for having entirely failed to cover in my few remarks about why I am supporting the Government the issue of SMEs, which are of less relevance to this reservist issue than larger companies. None the less, my hon. Friend makes a perfectly sensible point, and I hope that he will be able to make it again later during the course of the debate.
Mr Arbuthnot
I said that there were a number of things that my hon. Friend had said and would be saying with which I entirely agree, and that is one of them. That was a peroration, so I had better sit down.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I hesitate to follow the peroration of the right hon. Gentleman, the Chair of the Defence Committee, but as always, we were informed by his remarks. I know that whatever his view on the amendments before us, his suggestion of a national debate and conversation about how to change the culture with respect to the reserves and to drive it forward in a national effort is one well made, and I think the whole House agrees with him.
I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), the former Secretary of State for Defence, for his contribution. He had all of us listening. Bringing his knowledge to the debate was worth while. He managed to lay to rest some of the Aunt Sallies that are being held up with respect to new clause 3.
I have heard people talk about the involvement of the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) with the reserves. He has achieved something that very few of us have managed to do, even with our own Governments—he has brought forward and had accepted an amendment to a Government Bill, and I congratulate him on that. He will disagree with my remarks on new clause 3, but we all recognise that new clause 1 will be an improvement. [Interruption.] He has heard what my hon. Friends on the Front Bench have said about his previous voting record, but his conversion on this matter is welcome. The fact that the Government have accepted his new clause is a good thing and will improve the Bill.
Let me explain to the House why we will support new clause 3 and the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), why we have tabled some similar amendments, such as new clause 4, and why we have supported similar motions before. As the Secretary of State will realise from the tone of the debate, this House, including Her Majesty’s Opposition, will always put Britain’s security and national interest first. One of the first things I said when I was appointed shadow Defence Secretary was that when I thought the Government were doing the right thing on defence, I would work with them in a constructive and reasonable manner, and that is what the shadow Front-Bench team and I have done throughout the passage of this Bill. To be fair, the tone of the debate, notwithstanding the disagreements that exist between Members on both sides of the House, is one of reasonableness and constructiveness. We have been debating the best way forward with respect to these reforms and the proper defence of our country.
I am sorry to have to say to the Secretary of State that he should not try to turn the debate into a party political row. It is disappointing and unnecessary. Contrary to what he said, we have raised this issue in parliamentary questions, in Committee and, as recently as last month, on the Floor of the House, when we passed a vote to approve a motion almost identical to the new clause. Importantly, the Secretary of State knows that we are not calling for the reforms to be reversed. He knows that we are not saying the reforms should be shelved. Like Members on both sides of the House, we want to see an enlarged reserve force with an enhanced and more heavily integrated role alongside regular forces.
Let me once again praise and pledge my support, and that of the House, for our armed forces and the work they do. What we need is evidence that the reforms are progressing as planned and promised, and we are trying to get the Defence Secretary to take more responsibility for that. There is clearly an issue about viability. All signs coming from the MOD suggest that the plan has, to some extent, fallen off course. Members of the armed forces and of this House have justifiably and sincerely held concerns, and the Secretary of State has exacerbated those by his response to some of the concerns.
Mr Philip Hammond
I recognise some of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, but does he not see that this is a long-term project? By accepting the substance of new clause 1, what we have put in place is a mechanism by which an annual independent report will be laid before Parliament and, we fully expect, give rise to a debate. That will allow the progress of this programme to be tracked over many years. New clause 3 would create a one-off hurdle, that sends a negative signal now. That is not an equivalent provision.
Vernon Coaker
I do not accept that. New clause 3, which the right hon. Gentleman will have read, seeks to examine the viability and cost-effectiveness of the reforms that are being put before of the House. We want the House then to assess them. He should have a bit of confidence in them, because if they are working, Parliament will be keen to accept them.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new role, as this is the first opportunity I have had to do so. May I reinforce the point that he has just made? Surely if the Secretary of State were confident that his plans were on track and that they were going to work in the time scale he has proposed, he should have accepted not only new clause 1—and it is a good thing that he has—but new clause 3 too. Everybody on both sides of the House would then be in total agreement.
Vernon Coaker
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Secretary of State should have the confidence to put his reforms before Parliament. Is it not reasonable, when the Secretary of State and the Minister say at the Dispatch Box that they will publish recruitment figures for the reserves, that they should do so?
On 16 July, the Secretary of State told the House:
“I will be transparent about recruitment and trained-strength targets.”—[Official Report, 16 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 958.]
Last month, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), told the Committee:
“We intend to publish the figure for the quarter to 1 October next month.”––[Official Report, Defence Reform Public Bill Committee, 22 October 2013; c. 434.]
That was due last week. As we have since found out, that has not happened and will not happen until next year. Why? The UK Statistics Authority states that the Government’s figures are not robust enough so there must be some delay in their production.
We do know that the overall trained strength of the armed forces reserve has fallen by 160 since last year and that time is slipping away, with the Secretary of State’s own 2018 target less than five years away. The last figures that were published showed that the Government were failing even to reach a quarter of the number of reservists they said they needed to recruit to meet their own targets.
Mr Philip Hammond
Let me clarify. The statistics that were published last week were on trained strength and on recruitment into the reserves. Those are the statistics for which the national statistician is responsible. She has indicated on her website that she intends to publish further data series once she is confident of their robustness. Separately, I have undertaken to publish for the House the targets to which we are working and I will do so before the end of the year.
Vernon Coaker
The whole House will be pleased to hear what the Defence Secretary has said. He said in his answer—I think I am quoting him, and Hansard will show whether I am correct or not—that the Statistics Authority had some doubt about the robustness of the Ministry of Defence’s figures and that once that robustness is sorted out, those figures will be published. That is my point.
Mr Hammond
I think the hon. Gentleman is referring to the figure for applications, not for enlistments or trained strength.
Vernon Coaker
It all needs clarification, which is my point. It is interesting that when we have a debate such as this, when the Secretary of State is feeling under pressure, we see amendments being accepted and more information being brought before the House. It is good that he is saying how he will publish this and how he will respond to that, but we now know that some robustness is lacking from the Government’s figures. That situation will no doubt be corrected much more quickly than it would have been before.
Mr Brazier
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his generous words earlier, but I must pick him up on that last point. The new clause I have drafted is based on what the Government have already announced. It seeks to make that permanent and put it on the statute book, but it is working with the grain of what the Government are already doing.
Vernon Coaker
We think that the hon. Gentleman’s amendment, although it is welcome, does not go far enough. That is why we support new clause 3.
When the Defence Secretary responds to the debate, I think the House would like to know a little more about what negotiations are going on with Capita, which is running the recruitment programme for the Defence Secretary. What are the problems? Will the IT issues be resolved soon? Are there any other issues? He will know that various rumours are circulating about the problems with regard to Capita and I think it would help the whole House to know where we are with those negotiations, what the Secretary of State intends to do about them and whether there are any penalty clauses for Capita should it continue not to perform as the Secretary of State and the House would expect.
New clause 3 does not call for a reversal of the cuts to the regular forces, despite some of the accusations from those on the Government Front Bench. We support it precisely because we want the Government to prove that their plans are both cost-effective and viable. For that reason, we deem it reasonable that both Houses of Parliament should scrutinise and approve a report that assesses the viability and cost-effectiveness of the reforms.
It used to be the policy of this Government that regular forces would only be reduced contingent on the required increase in reserve recruitment—
Vernon Coaker
I will give way in a moment. We are clear that reductions to the Regular Army must take place only at a pace that allows adequate uplift in the reserves to meet the shortfall.
Mr Hammond
The hon. Gentleman has half answered what I was about to ask him. Is he making a commitment to retain Regular Army strength at a higher level than the 82,000 funded into the future? If so, how will he meet the £1 billion a year cost of doing that?
Vernon Coaker
The right hon. Gentleman is flying another kite. I am not making that commitment at all. We support the thrust of the reforms to the Regular Army and the uplift in reserves, but new clause 3 seeks to obtain a proper understanding of whether the reform is working, whether it is saving money, whether it is offering value for money and what is happening with the recruitment targets. We need much more clarity and openness about all those things. The Defence Secretary can say that these are spending pledges or things we do not know. He can attack the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay for not properly understanding the reform. However, he needs to address what is being said rather than what he thinks we are saying, and that is the whole point.
We talk about allowing adequate uplift in the reserves to meet the shortfall, and we heard from the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). He remarked only last month:
“When I was secretary of state, I said we would only decrease the numbers of regulars when we had guarantees that we would be able to get the numbers—training and equipping up of the reserves—to match.”
Members of the armed forces and of this House deserve to know from the Defence Secretary when that policy changed and why.
We support new clause 3 because we want the Defence Secretary to take more responsibility for these reforms. We consider it better to pause until the MOD has managed to get recruitment back on track as a plan accepted by Parliament than to be forced to ditch the entire reform a few years down the line when it is clear that it is not working. A pause before progressing the reforms would give him time to fix the problems, to provide us with the figures, to prove his plan is cost-effective and to show that he can meet the time frame he has set.
Mr Ellwood
I, too, welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position. Will he place on the record his thoughts on the fact that our commitments in Camp Bastion and in Afghanistan are to be downsized, with 9,000 troops coming home? In that situation, would a Labour Government keep the armed forces, particularly the Army, at the same size, bearing in mind that downsize, or return it—[Hon. Members: “This is about reservists.”] I am asking about regulars for the moment. Would he retain the regular forces at their current levels bearing in mind that we are reducing a major commitment in Afghanistan in the middle of next year?
Vernon Coaker
As I have said on numerous occasions in this debate, in other debates and in the media, and as my right hon. and hon. Friends have said, we support the thrust of the reforms. We know about the withdrawal from Germany and that the Army will end operations in Afghanistan in 2014, but that does not alter the fact that we must understand that the downsizing of the Army and the Government’s stated policy mean that as the regular numbers downsize and reduce an uplift in reserve numbers should go alongside that. The central thrust of the whole debate is that we do not have confidence that the uplift in reserves will be sufficient to conform to the policy on the reduction in the number of regular forces. That is the central point.
Mr Ellwood
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is generous. He talks about this uplift replacing the duties on the regular forces. That is why I posed my question. I am asking him what the commitments will be. What does he see as the commitments that will keep reservists busy, in the sense that our overall commitments have been reduced?
Vernon Coaker
I have given the hon. Gentleman the answer to his question, which he asked again. If he does not like or accept the answer, that is fine, but I will not keep repeating it. He was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the previous Secretary of State for Defence when he made the commitment about uplift and about the relevant number of reserves having to be reached before the number of regulars was reduced. I wonder what comment he made to the then Secretary of State about that at the time.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
I think the hon. Gentleman is trying to make quite a conciliatory speech. I have put my name to new clause 3. Does he believe that it would provide a focus and an impetus for ensuring that the measures are put in place more quickly, rather than slowly, and that it does not jeopardise the direction of travel that I think that we are all trying to agree on?
Vernon Coaker
I thank the hon. Lady for her valuable and important point. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay made the point that new clause 3 is not about trying to wreck the reforms, although that is one of the things that has been said about it. It is not about trying to stop the reform; it is about asking whether it is sensible for the House to demand of the Defence Secretary, “Are these reforms working? Are they delivering what they are supposed to deliver?” When the Defence Secretary comes forward again with viable plans, is it not the purpose and responsibility of this House to judge whether those plans are accurate and make sense?
Mr Havard
Does my hon. Friend agree that the central question under discussion is about what the military call integration, not only of reserves and regulars, but of contractors, people outside in society, and the businesses that are prepared to participate? We have a new commitment to an annual report, but that report would be 15 months from now. All that we are saying is: let us have that annual report debate now, in advance of things being done badly, so that we do those things well.
Vernon Coaker
I thank my hon. Friend for his comment, and agree absolutely with him.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous in accepting so many interventions. This House, quite properly, has had many occasions on which to scrutinise these proposals, and will have many more. I have joined in debates, and have raised issues about what I feel is a mistake for the Territorial Army centre in Truro, and the Government are acting on those concerns. Is it not better that they carry on speedily resolving the issues than that they put a halt to sorting out the problems and cause further delay?
Vernon Coaker
I am sure the hon. Lady represents her constituency really well. She says that she has raised particular issues regarding the TA centre there, and she has worked hard to represent those to the Defence team in the Government, but this is about the strategic reshaping of our whole armed forces, and it is a reform that we need to scrutinise. We need to understand whether it is working. It is incumbent on the Defence Secretary to have a review and to bring the results before us, and there is a need for a pause. It is up to the House to agree on whether the Defence Secretary has got it right.
If we do not get this right now, we are taking risks with our country’s defence and security, and that is not an option for Britain or our armed forces. I know that we all want to support the Government in getting this right; I, too, want to give the Defence Secretary the opportunity to get it right. That is why my right hon. and hon. Friends and I will support new clause 3— it is in the best interests of our armed forces, and in the national interest.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I agree with everybody who has said that reservists have performed a singularly valuable task in recent operations—about 25,000 have been deployed—whether by augmenting existing units or by contributing specialist skills that would not have been available to the regular armed forces. I remember very well visiting Basra with the Select Committee on Defence just a couple of months after the war ended, and finding that the entire Iraqi economy was being put right by an Army officer who, in civilian life, was a banker. He was responsible for putting Iraq’s finances in order. Clearly, he had more success than the previous Prime Minister had in this country.
That brings me to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Select Committee, about the budget deficit. It is important that we all understand why we are here today and why we are debating these matters. We would not be here if Labour had not left this country with a catastrophic budget deficit of £156 billion. That is why we had to make tough decisions—
Mr Jones
I remind the hon. Gentleman that when he was in the shadow defence team in opposition, he was calling for a larger Army and a larger Navy. Did not the present Prime Minister and his team, when in opposition, agree with all our spending commitments, including those on defence, right up to 2008?
Sir Gerald Howarth
The hon. Gentleman had better wait to hear what I have to say. What I am about to say now is what I said when I was a Minister in the Ministry of Defence, which I would say more privately than I have been saying more recently. It is important that people recognise that in the Ministry of Defence we were faced, like every other Department bar those whose budgets were ring-fenced, with a requirement to produce savings immediately, because unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to deliver a comprehensive spending review that reassured the capital markets that Britain was intent upon putting its public finances back in order, we would have been in an even worse position than we inherited in May 2010.
I have much sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I can see where he is coming from: he wants a larger standing Army, and so do I. I am a Conservative. I believe that defence of the realm is the first duty of Government. I found it deeply distressing to be a Minister in a Ministry of Defence that was having to cut its budget, but we were in coalition. I see my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), who was an extremely collegiate colleague in the Ministry of Defence. I make no criticism of him; my criticism is of his leader. We had to make some pretty tough decisions, and ultimately it was not we in the Ministry of Defence who decided what our budget was. That was decided at No. 10 and in the National Security Council. That is what happened.
We are here today because we had to make some tough decisions. In other circumstances we would not have wished to have a standing Army reduced by 20,000 and a requirement to supplement it with another 30,000 reservists. The White Paper which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State produced earlier this year is littered with remarks about the financial constraints in which we have to operate, so it seems to me that we are making the best of a difficult situation. I hope, though, that the strategic defence review of 2015 will give us, particularly in the Conservative party, an opportunity to tell the nation that we intend to reorder the public spending priorities of the next Conservative Government.
I believe that in this uncertain and volatile world an increase in defence expenditure is a must. We are not there yet, and I hope to make the case over the next couple of years that that is what we have to do. We must restore some of the capability gaps from which we are suffering, and we must seek to repair some of the damage that has inevitably been done by the cuts that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) had to make. He and my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Defence should be hugely congratulated on having sorted out the Ministry of Defence’s appalling finances, which they inherited from the previous Administration.
The budget of the Ministry of Defence is now back on track, which is good news, but the strategic defence and security review of 2015 must give us an opportunity to enhance our niche capabilities, such as cyber, where my right hon. Friend has done an excellent job. I hope we can increase our investment in defence diplomacy.
I also believe that we need a larger standing Army. I must say to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) that I am not sure that he can predict what kind of world we will find ourselves in when we draw down from Afghanistan. The past four years have taught me that predicting the future is pretty difficult. None of us could have foreseen the Arab spring, the conflict in Syria or what is going on in the South China sea as we speak. This is an unstable world. Ultimately, the niche capabilities are important, but being able to take and hold territory requires having boots on the ground.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In support of what my hon. Friend has just said, which is the single most important observation anyone can ever make about defence planning, namely the unpredictability of future crises, may I remind him—that is not to say that he needs reminding—that only a few years ago the constant predictions were that it would be all about boots on the ground for the next 30 or 40 years? Let us therefore not make the mistake of doing something too rigid when we need maximum flexibility.
Mr Brazier
My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has just made almost exactly the same point I was going to make. If we can keep a broader spectrum and a larger total mass, some of it at lower cost, by keeping reserve forces going, which brings in a wider range of skills and enables a multiplier effect, surely that is a better buttress against the unexpected.
Mr Ellwood
My hon. Friend was absolutely right to mention my concern. I think that we have similar views on the desirable size of the armed forces, but I remind him that we had a vote on military intervention in Syria not long ago and this House decided fundamentally not to participate in that. I wonder how the House would vote on all the scenarios my hon. Friends have just mentioned. That will have a huge impact, and I worry about how this House is involved in that, but that is a concern on the size of the armed forces that we actually need.
Sir Gerald Howarth
If my hon. Friend thinks that Syria is a reliable or predictable template for the future, I urge him to be very cautious indeed, because it has special circumstances. I see no resiling by the Conservative part of this Administration from the Foreign Secretary’s statement to the International Institute for Strategic Studies in 2009 that a Conservative Government would seek to help shape the world in which we found ourselves and not simply to be shaped by it, and I entirely support that. I think that we need to have the means to back it up.
I will conclude by making this point: we are where we are. I have sought to set out why I believe we are where we are and what I believe we need to do for the future. I must say to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay that the Chair of the Defence Committee, our right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire, made a good point when he observed that the new clause would require the Government to put on hold the process of enacting the provisions for enhancing the reserves, and I know that he feels strongly about maintaining the number of regulars. The numbers of regulars are reducing, in accordance with the timetable set out two or three years ago. Therefore, the imperative is not to put the reserve generation on hold, but to ramp it up as fast as we can.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
On the basis of “we are where we are”, did my hon. Friend hear the head of the Army, General Sir Peter Wall, say:
“We are well on our way to implementing this plan. To reverse course at this stage would be destabilising and damaging.”
Is not it the case that we have to do what we have to do, so let us get on with it?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I think that General Sir Peter Wall is right. I thought that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, when interviewed this morning on the “Today” programme, put the case eloquently. I do not dispute the fundamental position of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, but I think that to put the reserve generation on hold would present a serious risk to the whole process and the destabilisation that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) mentioned.
Mr Ainsworth
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He has obviously read new clause 3. With good will and effort, how long a pause does he think it would result in?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I do not think it is for me to say that. I am not advocating a pause. It is my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay who is doing so and he has told us that he thinks it all could be done in a matter of months. We have to understand what the Chief of the General Staff has said. There is a process under way.
I have talked to my commanders in Aldershot, about whom I am very proprietorial: the Secretary of State may think they are his commanders, but actually they are mine. The Army has taken this on the chin and said, “Right, this is the political remit we’ve been given. We salute, turn right, march off and do the bidding of the politicians.” Whether they think it is right or not, they do it and they are doing it now. Putting this spanner in the works will not hold back the run-down of the regular Army; it will create a run-down in the whole Army structure. As everyone knows, I am a light blue, but we are talking essentially about the Army.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I give way to my hon. Friend, because I have made some observations about his position.
Mr Baron
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Those who say that we are trying to reverse the Army Reserve plans are completely wide of the mark. I recommend that one or two Members actually look at the wording of the new clause. It is very simple. It basically proposes a pause while we examine whether rising costs will lead to false economies and whether we are opening up unacceptable capability gaps. The pause could be very short if the Government allow prompt scrutiny of the report. It need only take a few weeks: the report could be produced immediately after the Bill gains Royal Assent and we could have a debate and vote in this House within weeks.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s position, but I am afraid to say that we will just have to disagree. I think it would have a destabilising, adverse effect. My hon. Friend has not made the situation clear. What would happen if we initiated his proposed process, scrutinised the plan and the House then rejected it? Where would we be then? Would the House go back to square one and trade alternative views—perhaps even within our own parties—while in the meantime the whole thing implodes and melts down?
Mr Baron
In direct answer to that question, if the plans do not bear scrutiny in this place, that tells us that we should not be doing it in the first place and suggests a much bigger story that the plans are not working. The argument that this place cannot scrutinise something because we are afraid it will not pass the test of scrutiny is a particularly weak one, and I would suggest that we do not promote it for those who genuinely want to defeat the new clause.
Sir Gerald Howarth
My hon. Friend is a gallant and, indeed, very honourable friend, but party politics do come into this from time to time. I cast no aspersions on the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), but it is a fact that, sometimes, if the Opposition see an opportunity to defeat the Government, they will use it. That is the way in which our system works, notwithstanding what the shadow Secretary of State has said about the general cross-party agreement on defence. Such agreement never existed when I first came to the House in 1983, so it is refreshing to debate matters in a much more intelligent way than in the mid-1980s.
I will conclude, because others wish to speak. We are not where I particularly would like to be, but the Army is to be commended for its professional approach. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury is also to be commended for the lead he has given. Our duty now is to crack on and make this work and, in the meantime, to address some of the longer-term structural issues as we approach the 2015 strategic defence review. I put my right hon. Friends on notice that I want the Conservative party to commit to giving more money to defence and it has to come out of the aid budget or any other budget—frankly, I do not care which. I think that the world is a dangerous place and we need our armed forces. The world has seen how professional they are. They are the finest armed forces in the world and they really can deliver what the Prime Minister wants, which is for this country to help shape the world in which we find ourselves.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), even if I do not agree with everything he says. I wish to speak in favour of new clause 6—in my name and those of the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), and others—and about our broader debate this afternoon.
It is worth reminding the Secretary of State and other right hon. and hon. Members that the British Army is of course Parliament’s Army; it is not the Crown’s Army. That dates back to the so-called Glorious Revolution, which is why we have to have an Armed Forces Act in every Parliament.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I am sorry to be a little outraged, but surely the hon. Gentleman would be the first to admit that it is not Parliament’s Army, but Her Majesty’s forces. It has nothing whatever to do with Parliament, although Parliament may deploy the forces on behalf of Her Majesty.
Thomas Docherty
I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman. Parliament must give permission for a standing Army in peacetime and, despite our actions in Afghanistan, we are in a time of peace. It is therefore specifically Parliament’s Army, not the Crown’s.
Thomas Docherty
No, I will not. We hear quite enough from the hon. Gentleman at other times.
It is not the Royal Army: we have a Royal Navy and a Royal Air Force, but a British Army. I make that point not to take up valuable time, but because the Secretary of State seems to think that it is the job of Ministers of the Crown, not of Parliament, to make decisions about the Army.
In an earlier exchange about the Back-Bench debate, the Secretary of State said from a sedentary position that it was a Back-Bench vote. The problem with his approach, and the one advocated by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), is that if there is an annual report that Members of Parliament want not only to debate but to vote on, it is clear that the Secretary of State’s intention would be to ignore any such decision.
This is our last chance to tell the Government that although the House supports the broad thrust of the Army reforms, they are clearly not going according to plan. The Secretary of State has already demonstrated that he has the courage to change tack, as he did on the aircraft carriers, when something is clearly going wrong. I am genuinely surprised that he is not prepared to say, “This is not going as well as we want. We need to slow the rate of progress, so that we do not end up in a disastrous position.”
Mr Philip Hammond
For a moment, I thought that the hon. Gentleman was suggesting that we ought to slow the rate of progress on the reserves agenda, but if anything we need to speed it up. I would just tell the hon. Gentleman—seeing the Chairman of the Defence Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) in his place—that if he believes Ministers will not be regularly scrutinised from morning till night by the Select Committee and at Defence questions in this House throughout the implementation of the programme, I do not know what planet he is living on. Of course we expect to be scrutinised.
Thomas Docherty
If the Secretary of State had been paying a bit more attention, he would have heard me say that it is quite clear that he does not intend to respect any such vote in Parliament. I am sorry, but this Parliament, not Ministers of the Crown, should be sovereign. If he is not confident of carrying his plans for the Army in Parliament, something is fundamentally wrong.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
In the time that it will take the Bill to travel through the other place, could we have a report similar to the annual report, so that when the Bill comes back to this House for final approval we would have an idea of the real situation? We could thereby avoid this problem completely and, frankly, it might get the approval of my good friend the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron).
Thomas Docherty
I am grateful for that intervention. I hope that it would not be a career-damaging move if I called the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) my hon. Friend, because I have had the pleasure of serving with him on the Defence Committee for the past three years. That is a perfectly reasonable suggestion and I am sorry that the Secretary of State has not offered that option.
There is genuine good will on both sides of the House. The armed forces and the defence of the realm are not issues that should be party political. This has been a good debate so far because we have managed, on the whole, to keep party politics out of it.
I agree with the Chairman of the Defence Committee about the growing value of cyber-warfare. When the Defence Committee visited the United States earlier this year, we went to cyber command and saw at first hand the key role that is being played by reservists. I think that Members on both sides of the House would agree that we need more such reservists coming through.
The problem is that the bald facts show that we are not recruiting sufficient reservists. When the generals appeared before the Defence Committee earlier this year, they said that we needed to recruit 6,000 reservists annually. I am sure that the Secretary of State has the most up-to-date figures, but I doubt whether a huge number of reservists have been recruited in the past few days. We are clearly falling short and we have been falling short for years. This is not just a teething problem; it is an ongoing problem.
As the Chief of the General Staff has said, there is no plan B on this project. It is therefore crucial that we get it right. At the moment—I say this in a genuinely bipartisan manner—the Government are not on track to meet these important targets. It is entirely sensible for the House to ask for a pause so that the Government can get back on track. The excellent observation was made earlier that that would help to focus minds. Having robust targets and the threat of a pause hanging over the Ministry of Defence might get it to pull the finger out.
The point on which I disagree gently with the hon. Member for Canterbury is that the problem until now has been that the regular generals have been siphoning off the money. They have not made enough progress.
Thomas Docherty
The Secretary of State shakes his head, but the £180 million that was allocated to the reserves in the first year was spent on upgrading the regulars. The generals told the Defence Committee that that was what they did. The threat of a pause if they do not get things sorted might compel the generals to make greater progress.
Mr Havard
Does my hon. Friend agree that a pause, rather than creating confusion or demoralising reservists, businesses and others, might have the opposite effect of showing people that there is a proper re-examination of a plan that they do not yet have the confidence fully to join? It might give them that confidence, rather than destroy it.
Thomas Docherty
I agree with my hon. Friend, whom the House will recognise is one of the experts on the Defence Committee on the issue of morale.
Mr Brazier
The hon. Members for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) are both good friends and colleagues on the Defence Committee. However, may I suggest to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife that what he is saying just is not right? What the reserves want is a strong voice of their own in a regular-dominated process. That is exactly what new clause 1 would give them and the Government have agreed to that. What they do not want is what is in new clause 3. Proposed subsection (2) states:
“Further implementation of the plans shall be halted 40 days after the laying of the report”
unless there is a resolution of both Houses. That would put yet another level of uncertainty into their thinking.
Thomas Docherty
I have huge respect for the hon. Gentleman, but I gently disagree with him. The reserves already have many strong voices in the British Army. He would agree that Major-General Munro is one of those strong voices. I think that the hon. Gentleman means that the reserves need stronger voices in the British Army.
I am sorry to disagree with the hon. Gentleman but, like many colleagues on both sides of the House, I think it is clear from present morale—I am not sure how it could be much lower—that our reserves are not being given adequate support. New clause 3, which is supported by respected figures on both sides of the House, would send a clear signal that we will not simply go along with the plans, come hell or high water, but that we want to see genuine progress.
Mrs Moon
We talk as if the members of our armed forces are delicate little flowers, whose sensitivities are such that debates in this House have them crying into their cocoa at bedtime. The reserves and the regulars, for whom we all have huge respect, want to ensure that the service in which they proudly serve is organised and run efficiently and effectively. They, and this House, do not have that trust at the moment, and that is what we are looking for.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
May I just ask for short interventions? Many Members still wish to speak. Let us make sure that everybody’s voice is heard.
Thomas Docherty
On new clause 6, we have all heard, in the Defence Committee and elsewhere, that the biggest disincentive to joining the reserves, of whichever service, is getting time off work. These are the words of the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt):
“a lot of reservists find it difficult to get time off for deployment or training courses”.—[Official Report, 23 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 273WH.]
I am sorry that she is not in her place today. Perhaps she is training. [Interruption.] She is away on a course and we wish her all the best. Even the Secretary of State’s PPS has acknowledged that this is a huge challenge.
The White Paper sets out an ambitious goal of increasing the annual training requirement to 40 days, and I think Members on all sides of the House recognise the importance of that. I hope the Secretary of State will support new clause 6—his Liberal Democrat colleagues will, for reasons I will explain in a moment—because it seeks to provide a simple way to address that goal: reservists would receive an additional two weeks unpaid leave from their employer, provided that their firms had more than 50 employees. The hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) made the point that we have to careful about the impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, and it is right that we provide protection to smaller companies. The proposal is sensible and measured, because reservists will receive their military pay at no cost to their employer. In the rare cases of resistance from an employer, we propose that complaints are referred to an employment tribunal for arbitration.
I must confess that I am confident that the Liberal Democrats will vote for new clause 6 because the idea was originally developed by them and was passed at their party conference only seven weeks ago. I suspect that the former Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), has had a large hand in writing their defence policy, and that, in the regrettable and unforeseen event of there being a Division, he will vote for the new clause.
Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)
I admire the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for the proceedings of the Liberal Democrat conference—I only wish I shared it. I confirm my party’s support for the idea of two weeks’ military training and, although I do not purport to speak for them, I am sure many Conservative Members take the same view. The difficulty with legislating for that now in the manner the hon. Gentleman is suggesting is that there is a serious cost implication: he is proposing that military pay will be provided for that period of time. I dearly hope that this Government or a future Government will at some point be able to find the resources, but a gargantuan effort has been made to balance the Ministry of Defence’s books and the resources are not there. I know the Labour party has a bit of form on making unfunded commitments, but it would be irresponsible to legislate on this when we do not have the funds to pay for it.
Thomas Docherty
I am genuinely baffled. I do not know where the hon. Gentleman was before he came into the Chamber, but reservists already receive pay when they are on training. This proposal is not about additional training time; it is about meeting requirements for the training they have to undertake. If his only concern is about the funding element, I can reassure him that there is no additional spending cost. It actually—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman stops chuntering for one second, I will finish. There will be no cost to the business and no additional cost to the Ministry of Defence, because it is already providing pay for that training period. Having given him that reassurance, I look forward to his confirming that Liberal Democrats will support us in the Lobby, in the unfortunate event that we cannot just adopt the proposal as a whole and someone calls a vote.
I am conscious that many others wish to speak; I will therefore finish with this thought. This Parliament is sovereign. It is up to us to send a clear signal that we want to support our armed forces, whether they be regular or reserves, on land, on sea or in the air. It is crucial that we provide a robust target for the MOD to do what it should be doing and ensuring that we have an adequate number of regulars and reserves to meet the aspirations that we all have for them.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Ind)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). Many of his remarks I agree with; some I disagree with. However, I particularly admire my close and hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier)—who sadly has gone for a cup of tea—and my other close and hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). They have opposing views, but they both have the good of the nation and the armed forces at their heart. I have no doubt about that.
I think I am right in saying that of all the ex-regulars and ex-Territorials in the House, I am the only one who has been a professional recruiter. My last job in the Army was as a colonel in the Army training and recruiting agency. I use the word “agency” with a curl of the lip: it was not a command or a military formation of any sort, which was one of the reasons I resigned from the Army—because of its disgraceful conduct, particularly over recruiting. I will return to that in a moment. I also had the privilege to belong to and to command a battalion that, at the height of the Territorial Army, had to find permanent staff instructors, adjutants and the like for up to four Territorial battalions—our third and fourth battalions, and what were then called the 1st and 2nd Battalions the Mercian Regiment.
That is where I first heard about STABs, which stands for stupid TA—and then a word that means “illegitimate people”—and about arrogant Regular Army “illegitimate people”. That is an example of the desperate confusion and rivalry between regulars and Territorials, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury made such clear reference, from the first and second world wars, and so on. I am a little out of date now, but in my experience that was a deeply divisive and extremely unhelpful view. In the Regular Army, we had to provide a lot of those individuals, which absolutely was a nuisance. None the less, anybody who looked at the colours of my regiment—or, indeed, of the fusiliers or any of the infantry or cavalry regiments in the British Army—would have seen that the majority of the battle honours on those colours were won by battalions and regiments from the Territorial Force or the Territorial Army. It is a fact; we cannot get away from it. Any Regular Army individual who ignores the importance, the potential or the sheer enthusiasm of the reserves—the TF, the TA or whatever we want to call them—is simply daft.
However, there are reservations I would like to express about the future of warfare and the type of forces we need to fight those wars. Turning to new clause 1, my experience as a commanding officer is that I was told in the late ’90s that my battalion was about 40 men under strength and that we could not recruit more than that, which, in a recruiting famine, would be quite impossible. I talked closely to what was then called the recruiting group of the Army training and recruiting agency, listened to its advice and did precisely the opposite.
Mr Kevan Jones
The hon. Gentleman has first-hand experience of recruitment. Does he agree with the earlier comment of the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) about recruiters being staffed from the sick, lame or lazy?
Patrick Mercer
I was deeply offended by that remark. If I may, I would gently suggest that it sounds like a comment from someone who left the Army as a junior officer, without having to provide the sort of individuals that we provided for our recruiting offices, who were the very finest, Brecon-trained senior and junior non-commissioned officers inside the battalion.
Rory Stewart
May I respectfully suggest to my hon. Friend that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) was not saying that as his own view; he was talking about the reputation that was attached at the time?
Patrick Mercer
I entirely agree, in which case, in my 25-year experience, that is completely wrong.
Moving swiftly on. The Army and training recruiting agency, as it was at the time, could not and would not recruit. We were 40 men under strength when I took command; inside a year, we were 120 men over strength—in a recruiting famine when the economy was apparently buoyant and there were difficulties in finding manpower. What was going wrong with recruiting in the late ’90s is going wrong with recruiting today. I dread to hear people talking about recruiting offices not being open at the weekends; I dread to hear that people are not being recruited especially for the Territorial and the Reserve forces.
In my experience the only way to produce a battalion with an extra company was by fully understanding where to recruit and how to recruit, and by using our own resources. When we realised that recruitment was not particularly for the TA, we took TA recruiters with us, ensured that the particular conditions of the Reserve forces and the Territorial Army were understood and sent those recruits straight to the TA rather than try to confuse them with the Regular Army. I make no pretence of fully understanding the impact of social media, on which Capita and other firms base the core of their recruiting effort—that was different in my day—but I do know that unless we get out with capable and experienced people, seek recruits in the places where they are most plentiful, and physically present the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and the reserve forces, we will not recruit people. We simply will not, and I would be happy to debate that with anyone who thinks it is incorrect.
My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay tells me that TA numbers are falling, while the Secretary of State for Defence seems to disagree. I am not quite sure, but there seems to be a serious divergence between the two. I would respectfully say that the Secretary of State has mentioned in the past that applications for the reserve forces were going up. On the basis of my experience, however, I would say that applications are very different from enlistments and that the problem is even worse in the reserve forces than it is inside the Regular Army.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I would like to put it on the record in Hansard that recruitment to the TA in Northern Ireland is at a high level, and it has been so over a number of years. From his experience, the hon. Gentleman will know that recruitment to all the services—the Royal Navy, the Air Force and the infantry—has met levels higher than in the rest of the United Kingdom. There are parts of the United Kingdom, then, for which levels of recruitment are high, and Northern Ireland is one of those areas.
Patrick Mercer
I am grateful for that intervention. Recruitment in the Province was always good—despite the troubles—and I hope that it is even better now.
Mr Philip Hammond
As a supplementary to the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), what he says is absolutely true. The fall was 130 over the course of 12 months—0.6% of the trained strength. That is unwelcome, but statistically not a relevant number.
Patrick Mercer
There we are: we see the opposing views of the two sides. All I ask is for the Secretary of State for Defence to be clear about it, and to continue to be clear about it. I find new clause 1 to be sensible; it has my complete support. New clause 3 posits some extremely interesting questions, and we have had a good debate about it this evening. However, I think that the point about the changing face of warfare is terribly important.
We have heard a lot of talk about cyber-warfare and other specialist forms of warfare. If we open our history books, we see that in the late 1920s there was a school of thought which held that the fighting of savage tribes could be done entirely from the air. That was tried by an emergent Royal Air Force in Wazirista, and it completely failed, because there were not the boots on the ground to support the Royal Air Force in the excellent work that it did.
Of course there are specialisations within the reserve forces and the Territorial Army which are desperately important, but what our regular forces depend on is a very high level of fitness, a very high level of training, and an ability to deploy instantly. One of my hon. Friends, who is no longer in the Chamber, observed that there was always a period of time before any reservist—any Territorial—was up to snuff. That is no criticism, but, as Members who have served in infantry battalions know, preparing an individual for combat is akin to training a professional athlete. The level of fitness is extraordinarily important. I challenge any civilian holding down a full-time civilian job—and I do not say this with any form of disrespect—to be at such a level of fitness for instant deployment.
What we want for the future is the ability to nip problems in the bud—to avoid confrontation and conflict—and we therefore require deployment that is instantaneous, or as near to that as we can make it. I must say, with the greatest respect, that no reservist can achieve that. It is not in the nature of reserve forces. The clue is in the phrase “reserve, not regular”. I say that with profound respect for all Territorials and all reservists, and for their naval and air force equivalents.
Mr Gray
I broadly accept what my hon. Friend has said about fitness, but does he not accept that a significant number of Territorial Army regiments are absolutely ready for deployment in the way that he has described? I am thinking particularly of my own regiment, the Honourable Artillery Company, but I am also thinking of the TA special forces regiments, which are as good as their regular counterparts.
Patrick Mercer
I accept that a very small number of Territorials are ready for instant deployment, but I have to say that the Territorial Army units that I have seen—none of which have been so-called special forces, and which I shall not name—have been a very, very long way from being ready for instant deployment. That is just my experience, but I fear that the Territorials who came to support me on operations were never up to snuff until we had given them concerted and extensive periods of training, including fitness training.
I think that if we wish to avoid trouble, it is quite wrong for us to reduce the size of our regular forces until our Territorial or reserve forces are fully in place, fully equipped, and fully trained to deploy. I understand that the standards are different, and I respect the fact that reservists need a period of training before they can deploy, but I think it irresponsible to allow our regular forces, with their instant deployment capability, to be run down before we have an adequate replacement.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), and, indeed, rather daunting to follow so many right hon. and hon. Friends—some of them gallant—who have so much personal and very relevant experience and knowledge of this subject. My special interest is the relationship between the armed forces and employers, and I believe that the Bill presents an opportunity in that context.
With a more integrated role for reserves will come a more open and supportive relationship between armed forces and employers. A number of the new clauses refer to business, implicitly or explicitly, and would have an impact on it. That is why I was so keen to speak at this point. As a small business owner and as someone who has been in business for more than 20 years and has employed reservists, I understand that, for many of them, successful service in the military depends hugely on the support of their employers. That will become even more important given the increased role of reservists in the future armed forces, and it is right for us to recognise the valuable contributions that employers make to our national security by hiring them.
Equally, however, it is important that trained-up reservists are provided with accredited qualifications that the armed forces can provide, and these will give a real service to employers. We must recognise the skills employees will gain from reserve service and how that will benefit employers and society as a whole. Ultimately business needs one thing more than anything else: certainty. It just wants to know what is expected of it with sufficient notice and what it can expect in return. I am delighted that this Bill commits to providing employers with full information about what hiring a reservist entails.
Too many businesses currently have no experience of hiring a reservist and the establishment of a national relationship management scheme will strengthen the partnership between the armed forces and employer organisations, leading to a much more open and predictable relationship in which all parties are fully aware of what is required of them.
One of my concerns with new clause 3 is that it will provoke confusion. It will delay or prevent payments being made to small enterprises when their employees are mobilised. This extra finance for small and medium-sized enterprises, who find it most difficult to plug the gap when their employees are away, is vital. These firms do us a great service by employing reservists and it is only right that they should be fully compensated.
My other concern with new clause 3 is about the delay in the delivery of the transferable skills. This Bill does not just compensate firms; it provides them with real benefits for deciding to hire a member of the new Army Reserve. Time with the reserves can greatly enhance an employee’s effectiveness through high-quality training, leading opportunities and the chance to gain specific civilian-recognised qualifications while on duty. By accrediting reservists with recognised qualifications, we not only help them progress their careers, but provide real incentives for employers to take them on in the first place. Businesses will know that while their employees are away on duty they will not be engaged in unnecessary training exercises, but will be gaining tangible and valuable skills. This will also encourage more people to consider serving with the reserves. The fact that they will be able to make a genuine contribution to our national security while increasing their employability in their chosen career path will be a real pull, attracting high-quality individuals into the Army Reserve.
This will help more than just those who are currently employed, however. Reserve service can help provide people who are currently out of work with boosts to both their skills and their self-confidence, helping them on to the job ladder. Joint industry-led apprenticeships will provide unemployed young people with a trade and accredited qualifications, but, more than that, reservists will learn how to work as part of a team, how to solve problems and how to present themselves with maturity. These skills are harder to define than others, but are no less valuable
Time with the Army reserves is a great preparation for life in the workplace, enhancing employability skills and boosting self-confidence. It is excellent news that this Government will be placing clear emphasis on the development of reservists, and on building and maintaining an open and productive relationship between employers and the armed forces. We owe a great debt both to the individuals who protect our national security and to the businesses that employ our reserve troops. I am delighted that this Bill will make sure that we are repaying both those employers and the reservists themselves by providing them with the training and skills to flourish both in the field and in the workplace.
Mr Gray
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) both because I very much agree with her point about small and medium-sized enterprises and the Territorial Army and because it gives me an opportunity to thank her publicly for the superb work she has done as chairman of the royal naval section of the all-party group on the armed forces for the last three years. She has graced the position—both physically and intellectually, if I may say so—over that time and I am most grateful to her for it.
I did not intend to contribute to the debate, but I rise to speak briefly because I find myself in a difficult position. That difficulty has been highlighted by much of what has been said in the debate and in the media over the last 36 hours or so, and it is that, contrary as this may sound to our experience personally, most people observing, and taking part in, the debate are of the same, or at least a very similar, view. We all deeply regret the reduction in the Army from 102,000 to 82,000 soldiers. It is appalling; personally, I think it is disgraceful. I am extraordinarily concerned about the future of the globe if we have an Army of 82,000 soldiers and about the reductions in the RAF and Royal Navy. One or two of my colleagues have expressed that concern very well. This is a very uncertain world, and facing it with this reduced defence spending is extremely worrying. As a Back Bencher, I have no personal responsibility for these matters, but I accept that the financial position in which the Government found themselves when they came to power three years ago necessitated these cuts in defence spending, in the same way as they necessitated all kinds of unpleasant cuts in other Departments. None the less, I deeply regret them and am extraordinarily worried about them.
Mr Baron
I commend my hon. Friend for all his good work on behalf of the regular armed forces in this place, but with the greatest of respect his point that the MOD budget has to be cut because of the financial constraints does not quite ring true because other Departments have escaped the cuts. It is a question of national priorities. Does he agree?
Mr Gray
I always feel instinctively uneasy when anyone says, “With the greatest of respect,” because it almost certainly means, “With no respect at all.” Of course, I agree with my hon. Friend: of course, we would all love the budgets to be as they were; of course, many of us would like the aid or other budgets cut, possibly in favour of defence; of course, those of us who believe passionately in defence would like to see the defence of the realm maintained as it has been for the past many years; of course, we would like us to achieve the NATO target of spending 2% of GDP—or even the NATO target of spending 2.5%—of GDP on defence, but this is realpolitik and those things are not going to happen.
I will leave that to one side for a moment. We all start from the position of regretting the cuts but realising the reasons for them. On the reserve forces, we all hope the plans in place work. We are all committed to making them work and believe that the reserve forces have done a superb job. In recent years, and as long ago as the first world war, they have made a gigantic contribution to the defence of the realm, and we strongly support that. Everyone in the Chamber is deeply concerned about whether the 20,000 regular soldiers will be replaced by the increase in the TA that is posited. Of course, we are concerned about that, about the recruitment figures and about whether the Secretary of State’s plans will work out. Those are common positions. I suspect that not one person in the Chamber would disagree.
The disagreement arises when we consider what to do about it. The Regular Army is already at about 86,000 or 87,000. By early February, it will be at about 82,760. The redundancy notices have gone out. People are already on their leaving training and getting ready to leave the regular forces. We cannot reverse that. No matter what we do in the Chamber today, there is no magic wand that will reverse it. By the middle of January, the Army will be at 82,760 soldiers. Regret it as we may, we cannot reverse that. The second thing for certain is that, whether or not we have confidence it will work, we will have to set about increasing the size of the reserve forces, their training and their equipment so that they can replace the lost regulars. Those two things are certainties, and regret them as we may, they are going to occur.
The question, therefore, is: what do we do about it? That is the nature of this debate, and it seems to me that there are two possibilities. The first thing we could do, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) seeks to do—I have to admit that I signed his new clause 3—is to write our aims and concerns into legislation. In recent years we have done that in this House on a number of occasions—for example, with regard to the green carbon targets and reducing child poverty. In such cases, there is a law that says, “The Government will do this or do that,” and if it does not achieve those aims there will be some penalty to pay. It is therefore perfectly possible that we could do what my hon. Friend seeks to do by writing into legislation—the law of the land—something that says that the Government will improve our reserve forces in the way described. The alternative approach would be to do what we do with regard to every single thing in this place—to scrutinise what the Government are doing in questions and debates in this Chamber, in Westminster Hall and in Select Committees. We can do that in a variety of ways.
I am very encouraged by the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State tells me that because of my hon. Friend’s new clause and this debate, he, the Prime Minister and the Ministry of Defence as a whole have been entirely focused on this matter for a number of days. That means we have achieved one of the things we wanted to achieve. We have said to the nation as a whole—it has been wall to wall in the media—that we are deeply concerned about these cuts in defence spending, about the fact that we have an Army of 82,000 that may not be able to do its job, and about whether the re-growing of the Territorial Army will actually occur. However, should we take the further step of writing those concerns into legislation?
Bob Stewart
Having talked briefly to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), I suggest that one way of helping to get everyone onside would be to have a report on the state of the Reserves produced quickly, before the Bill comes back to this House. My hon. Friend thinks, unless he shakes his head to indicate the contrary, that the people to do it would be members of the reserve forces and cadets associations. That could take the sting out of the tail very quickly.
Mr Gray
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. There is an absolute requirement on the Government to come before this House and report on what they are doing about this, and I have every confidence that they will, whether through the all-party group on the reserve forces and cadets, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, the Defence Committee, Opposition days that the Opposition will no doubt call, Back-Bench business days or regular oral questions. I am confident that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be at the Dispatch Box day in, day out for the next two or three years answering difficult questions about recruiting in the Territorial Army. I pledge to him now that I will be his most difficult inquisitor. If he thinks that he is somehow going to get off the hook and that I am going to become a nice fellow and be gentle with him, he is completely wrong. I spent an hour in his study yesterday afternoon explaining these matters to him.
The question is whether it is right that our concerns about cuts in the Regular Army and our aspirations about improvements in the Territorial Army should be written into legislation. Having listened to the debate, I am sorry to have to advise my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay—if he were listening he would no doubt shake his head in disappointment—that I am increasingly convinced that it is not right to seek to write these things into legislation because they are political rather than legislative matters.
Two things greatly concern me about new clause 3, despite the fact that my name appears on it. First, it would have no effect whatsoever on the reductions in the regular forces that we are mainly concerned about. Secondly, if we had a pause to examine the matter and produce a report, one of two things would happen at the end of that pause. The report would be satisfactory to the House of Commons and the House of Lords, we would vote for it, and the plans would plough ahead as they were before, or the report would not be satisfactory to us and we would turn it down. If the latter were to occur, who knows what would happen? Presumably we would have to start again. The one thing that would not happen, even then, would be that somehow we magically grew the regular forces to fill the gap that had by then appeared. If I am right in thinking that the House would approve the report, what on earth is the point of a huge gap between now and then in producing it? We would end up with precisely the same plans that we have for the growth and retraining of the Territorial Army. I am not convinced that the pause that the new clause would write into legislation would necessarily help the situation.
We are all deeply concerned about what is happening, and I very much hope that we will not be back in the Chamber in five or 10 years expressing our regret about it, although I have a horrible feeling that we might be. However, I am by no means convinced that the new clause is the solution to our concerns. I pledge to give my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench as hard a time as I possibly can—probably even a harder time than I gave the Government when we were in opposition—in the Select Committee and in this Chamber, but I am not convinced that writing these concerns into legislation is the right thing to do. I therefore have to disappoint my hon. Friend and tell him that, despite having put my name to his new clause, I shall be unable to support him in the Lobby.
Dr Julian Lewis
It is a pleasure to be able to say that, unlike the traveller who fell among thieves, I feel like one who has fallen among friends. On these issues, I have friends on both sides of the House, including, first and foremost, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who has been a wonderful advocate for the reserve forces for many years. I say to him and to those on the Front Bench that if this matter had simply been put forward in isolation, I would not have contemplated voting for the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). I am thinking of doing that for two reasons but, before I go into detail, I shall mention a couple more of my friends.
It is a pleasure to welcome to the Opposition Front Bench another friend, the new shadow Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker). My experience of his activities and positions on security issues has been wholly positive, and he has lived up to that by making his first trip as shadow Secretary of State a visit to the Barrow shipyards. I am sure that we can rely on him to maintain the firm position in support of the successor generation of submarines for the nuclear deterrent that both Front Benches adhere to, and which only one small party has sought to obstruct.
Another friend to whom I would like to refer—he has just slipped out of the Chamber for a moment—is the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond). Most people would agree that he was a very fine Treasury Minister indeed. I cannot think of anyone who was better at tackling complex financial problems and explaining them in terms so crystal clear that, from time to time, I even thought that I understood them myself. In reality, I could not think of any person, when presented with a limited budget—whether for defence or any other portfolio—who would make a better fist than my right hon. Friend of adjusting the workings of the Department concerned to fit a budget that he had perhaps rather arbitrarily been allocated.
That has a direct bearing on the two reasons for my putting my name down in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay’s new clause and amendments. The first relates to the size of the defence budget; the second is the question of whether the scheme for the reserves is or was linked to the proposed reduction in the size of the Army. Those are the two things that worry me. Even if my hon. Friend’s new clause and amendments are not ideally drafted—I am not saying that they are not—they present me, and other hon. Members whose main purpose of being in Parliament, apart from representing our constituents, is to maximise the defence of this country against threats, with one of the few opportunities that we have to register our concerns when we think that defence has fallen too far down the list of priorities.
I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) saying that the defence budget was a given. I am afraid that I do not accept that. I do not accept that more money could not have been found from within the defence budget and outside it. There could have been more money. We did not need to spend £1.4 billion extending the life of four Vanguard-class submarines just to satisfy the Liberal Democrats, so they could put off the decision to sign the main-gate contracts for the successor submarines until the next Parliament. We did not need to spend a whole shedload of money reversing the plan for two aircraft carriers and to adopt a preposterous plan for one functional and one non-functional aircraft carrier, and then spend another shedload of money reverting to the original position. Nor do we need to spend £40 billion or £50 billion on a high-speed train service to the north of England—[Interruption.] It has a great deal to do with it.
Martin Horwood
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Having missed some of the recent debate, I am unclear as to which clause we are precisely discussing—and I really cannot tell from the hon. Gentleman’s speech.
Dr Lewis
If the hon. Gentleman had not been absent, he would have heard the great deal of discussion that took place about the priority of defence in the nation’s schedule of priorities. If he had made that bogus, so-called point of order having been here, I would have had some time for him, but given that he did not even have the courtesy to listen to the debate before making it, it was unworthy.
The reality is that a nation gets the defence forces it is prepared to pay for and it can decide what level of services it will fund—whether that involves cuts in the Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force that could be avoided.
The next question is whether this scheme for the reserves was linked to the proposed cut in the size of the Army. As I said, if this scheme had been put forward on its own, I could have wholeheartedly supported it, but it was not. It was specifically put forward as a compensating factor for the Army’s regular strength being reduced by 20,000. We were told that that reduction would be compensated for by the 30,000 increase in reserves. Now we are told that that linkage no longer exists. My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire asked what we will do if we find that in fact the reserve scheme is not working. If I understood him correctly—I think I did—he said that, by the time we discovered that we were not going to get the 30,000 reservists, it would be too late to regenerate any of the loss in the 20,000 regulars. [Interruption.] He seems to be indicating that I have understood him correctly. If that is the case, I take great exception to the fact that this linkage was ever made in the first place.
If we are to be told that we have to accept cuts in this country’s defence capability, we should be told that honestly. We should not constantly be confronted with shifting goalposts. If the recruitment of 30,000 reservists may or may not be achieved, and if the 20,000 cut in regulars will happen nevertheless and is irreversible, we should have been told that at the outset. [Interruption.] Somebody says, “We were.” Who said that?
Mr Gray
Allow me to be the person who says that we were indeed told that. I very much regret that that has occurred. None the less, my point is not that I endorse this, but that it has happened: by 10 January, the British Army will be 82,767. That is the case and cannot be reversed.
Dr Lewis
Yes, but if so, that was always going to be the case, and we should not have been sold the package of a cut in regular numbers of 20,000 on the basis that at least we could look forward to 30,000 reservists being added. That is no way to treat a mature Parliament or to show respect for the judgment of parliamentarians who are doing their best to supply the best level of defence that we can within the budget available.
A very simple principle is at stake here. Let us suppose that someone comes to a sovereign Parliament and says, “We are going to make a significant cut in the size of the Army, but don’t worry about it because we are going to compensate for it by building up the reserves to the tune of 30,000 people.” If there are any significant or reasonable doubts at all about whether the 30,000 target will be achieved, it is reasonable to say, “Hang on a minute, what happens if the 30,000 is not achieved?” If the answer is that the 20,000 cuts will take place in any case, it is absolutely unacceptable to have promised the 30,000 in the first place, especially as it was explicitly stated to the House that the cuts in the regulars would not be fully or irreversibly implemented until we knew that the reserves were going to be forthcoming. I do not want us to have this debate again in a few months’ time or in a few years’ time over the fact that we have neither the number of regulars we need nor the number of extra reserves that were promised. That is why, whatever the intricacies of the wording of new clause 3, I intend to support it.
Rory Stewart
I wish to speak briefly, because I am aware that many others wish to contribute, in strong defence of new clause 1 and against new clause 3. Both relate to the central issue, which has been raised by almost everyone in this debate: recruitment into the Territorial Army. New clause 1 will encourage recruitment, because it will show that we are taking the reserves seriously, whereas new clause 3 will discourage recruitment by introducing an unnecessary delay. The most important thing, which lies behind this entire debate, is defining what the reserves are for—what the function of the military is about. The best way to guarantee that we have a well-supported, well-recruited reserve is if we in this House can agree what the future shape of the Army is supposed to be and what we are supposed to be doing with it.
The central issue, which perhaps has not been touched on enough today and which I would like to touch on briefly, is whether we have or have not learned the lessons of the past 10 years. Do we have the shape of reserves or of the Regular Army required to meet the threats of the future? In essence, events of the past 10 years have completely exploded, or should have done in this Chamber, the entire consensus on nation building and counter-insurgency. For 10 years, the entire shape of our military has been arranged around those two principles, both of which I suggest, modestly, have been discredited. The experience of Iraq and Afghanistan should have taught us by now that we have designed the wrong kind of Army for the wrong kind of campaign. Those two central slogans, “nation building” and “counter-insurgency”, have not worked. We do not have time to talk through why they have not worked—if we had a long debate, we could do so—but we have to design reserve forces that meet that problem and that challenge.
Why has nation building not worked? In essence, it was because it was an over-ambitious fantasy. The jargon of “the rule of law”, “governance” and “civil society” turned out to be impossible to deliver. We never had the tour lengths, the linguistic knowledge or the deep area expertise to deliver things that require an understanding of culture and history. Counter-insurgency did not work for even deeper reasons, which the military predicted—in the United States and the United Kingdom—before we deployed. We never had the requisite number of troops, nor were we ever likely to. We never had the tour lengths we required. We never had a credible, effective, legitimate Government in Baghdad or Kabul to back us. We never had full control of the borders. In the absence of such structures, those missions turned out to be impossible.
Unless the reserves and the Regular Army take on those lessons, we will have the wrong kind of forces in the future. That does not mean that our military does not have a deep function in intervention, but that deep function needs to look at the model of Bosnia, and not that of Iraq or Afghanistan. We need to remember that in Bosnia our military proved exactly what an intervention can do. It went into a country with 110,000 people under arms. It went into a country when a million refugees had been displaced and when there were internal borders dividing it up in 25 different ways. By the time we had finished that intervention, the internal borders had gone, the militia had been reduced to 5,000 and the crime rate in Bosnia had dropped; it is now lower than that of Sweden. That is the kind of success for which we should be preparing our military.
The final thing—this really goes to the heart of what my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) has raised—is the question of how the knowledge, the imagination and the skills and the local links of the reserves should be adjusted to a new world. There are small ingredients that we should insert, and I plead with the Secretary of State to look very hard at reintroducing the short-service limited commission, or the gap-year commission. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, I and a number of other Members of Parliament are proud to claim that we have been in the military. Our standing there was very brief, but it was an incredibly deep and important experience for us and for many other people. It is a relatively cheap programme, and it is one that can develop the links between the military and the local population.
On imagination and skills, the biggest prize for which we should be aiming is to fill in the gap that the Foreign Office, the Department for International Development and the current military are unable to fill in. I am talking about deep area expertise and deep linguistic expertise, which the right kind of reserve forces should be able to produce. We need to recruit, promote and incentivise the right kind of people. We want people with other lives, other jobs and other experiences, who should be able to develop what we have been sadly lacking for 20 years, which is a sensitivity to other cultures and an understanding of other environments, other local business and other political structures. If we can get those things right, we have exactly what we need for new clause 1, which is a template, a model or a bar to which to hold the Government accountable on how the reserve forces should function. We will also have a reason not to proceed with new clause 3, which delays the most important part of rebuilding the reserves.
Mr Baron
I agree with what my hon. Friend said about nation building. He had his opportunity to adjudicate on the Government’s nation building when we had the Afghanistan vote in 2010. Does he not accept that what we are arguing for here is a very brief pause—it does not have to be a long pause—and the longevity of that pause is in the Government’s gift?
Rory Stewart
I do not wish to quote my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), but my peroration was somewhat interrupted by that intervention.
Above all, it seems important that our relationship with the reserves is characterised by one word, which is “seriousness”. We need a plan, a direction and a confidence of Government, and that will turn around recruitment. People do not join the reserves for exactly how many days they serve, for how much money they receive or for the pension terms they get. They join because they feel that it matters: Government are serious about them, Parliament is serious about them and we know where we are going. The reason I will not vote for new clause 3 is that it passes exactly the wrong model at exactly the time when we should be moving forward with the wonderful work of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury and producing the excitement and the vision that we require. Another muddle and another conversation would be catastrophic.
Andrew Selous
A lot of sorrow and anger has been expressed on both sides of the House this afternoon about the fact that it has been sadly necessary to make reductions in the Regular Army. We all understand that, but we all also understand that it was a necessary reaction to the £160 billion deficit with which this Government were confronted on taking office and the £38 billion black hole in the defence budget that there was at the same time.
We have heard a lot of praise for the reserves and for the Territorial Army throughout the debate, and that is right and proper.
Andrew Selous
Not at the moment.
As a former Territorial soldier, I extend that praise to the regular forces alongside whom I have had the pride to serve. There are wonderful people in both the regular and reserve forces of whom this Parliament can be justifiably proud. It is absolutely right, however, that the Government have agreed to new clause 1. Like many others, I pay huge tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) for tabling it. Indeed, I went to see the Secretary of State yesterday to lobby for new clause 1 and I am delighted to see that it has been accepted by the Government.
New clause 1 is important because, in spite of the praise we have heard for the reserve forces and specifically for the TA from Members on both sides of the House, all Territorials will say that a certain amount of antipathy exists between regular and reserve forces as they serve our country together. It is absolutely right that the new clause should put into law independent scrutiny and independent control over what is happening to our reserve forces and the reserve forces estate, as well as the progress in recruitment and so on.
The Government had to take very difficult decisions, and they decided to move towards a Regular Army of 82,000 and an Army Reserve, as we will soon call it, of 30,000, making a total Army strength of 112,000. Incidentally, we would still have the fourth largest defence budget in the world and a considerable list of new equipment to go with those armed forces.
The point that has been made, first and most clearly by the Chair of the Select Committee on Defence, is that the reductions in the regular forces have already been made and are in place and on track to happen. There is no proposal to increase the number of regular soldiers from any quarter of this House. A prescient intervention by the Secretary of State on the shadow Secretary of State led the shadow Secretary of State to say that the Labour party had no plans to increase the number of regular soldiers. The question before the House is therefore how to press on and ensure that the reserve recruiting plan works and is successful. That is at the heart of what we need to do this afternoon, and the question is what will best help and bring about that recruitment effort. I listened to the wise words of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, who said that any legislative impact that would put a halt to the plans to increase the reserve forces would be a hammer blow to the morale of the TA. We need certainty, and for everyone in this House to get behind the plans and ensure that we can successfully increase the strength of the Army Reserve from 19,000 to the 30,000 that we want.
We must remember that as recently as 1990 we had 72,000 Territorial soldiers, so it is entirely possible for us to move up to 30,000. It is an increase of only 20 extra Army Reserve recruits by parliamentary constituency and is an entirely achievable objective. I believe that we can bring that about. We need employers’ help, and I am encouraged by the fact that companies such as Carillion, Barclays and BT are very much getting behind the measures to make sure that we get the reserves that we need.
We will have full parliamentary scrutiny of the process; of that there is no doubt. We do not need new clause 3 to have proper parliamentary scrutiny of it. That is what the House is providing this afternoon, and that is what happens every month at Defence questions. It is also the role of the Select Committee on Defence to make sure that we have proper scrutiny.
Andrew Selous
The point that I make to my hon. Friend is that Government Members have come to the conclusion that we want an Army of 112,000 people, made up of 82,000 regulars and 30,000 Reserves. There has been no proposal from any part of the House, including from Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, to change those figures. That is a decision that the House has taken. I have heard no serious challenge to that this afternoon, given the financial situation that the country finds itself in. The issue before the House is: how do we all get behind the plan and make sure that it works, giving it proper scrutiny, but fully backing and supporting it?
We have had proper scrutiny this afternoon from pretty much every Member who has spoken. Even the most enthusiastic advocate of the reserve forces in the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, was excoriating about the recruitment process run in recent months by the Regular Army to try to increase the Army Reserve. He is a shining example of someone giving proper parliamentary scrutiny to the process that we are considering because he wants it to work. He is doing that in a way that shows that he is committed to making the proposal a success, and that is the difference. That is why I am pleased that new clause 1 is being accepted by the Government, and why I think that it would be damaging, divisive and unnecessary to support new clause 3.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
It is a pleasure to take part in the debate; I have listened very carefully to it all afternoon. I find myself in a very difficult place, particularly being a Conservative MP, for two reasons. First, in my view, the cuts to our armed forces have gone far too far. Secondly, I believe that the ratio of regulars to reserves is wrong. Rather than going for 70:30, we should be looking at 90:10.
Andrew Selous
Is my hon. Friend aware that the United Kingdom’s reserve proportion would, under the proposals, rise to 25%, while in Australia it is 36%, in Canada it is 51%, and in the USA it is 55%? We would have less than half the reserve proportion of some of our major NATO allies.
Richard Drax
I hear my hon. Friend, and I respect him hugely for his opinion, but it is slightly dangerous to look at other countries and think that we can meet their expectations. I remember when an American general came to speak to a few of us upstairs about reserves. He had served under President Clinton and then President Obama. He was an interesting and very decorated man who had fought in Vietnam. We asked him about the reserves that America has. He made a rather salutary comment: “In America, having a high proportion of reserves works, because we have the money to fund them. We have airstrips with Hercules aircraft lined up on them, just waiting for commercial pilots to step out of their 747s into them, and to go off to trouble spots or wars around the world.” We cannot begin to meet that level of expenditure; that is what really worries me. We are pushed to fund the regulars.
We have two aircraft carriers, but I bet my bottom dollar that we will not have enough men and resources to man and protect one, with frigates and destroyers around, submarines underneath, and aircraft above. It is a hugely expensive commitment that I do not think has really been considered.
Mr Brazier
I am so pleased that my hon. Friend enjoyed the presentation by Dave McGinnis, one of my oldest friends, but his point was that because in America reserve manpower is less than a quarter of the cost, America is able to afford, whatever size its budget—it is obviously larger than ours—a much larger range of capabilities, and more boots on the ground, albeit that some of them are at lower readiness, by having such a high proportion of reservists.
Richard Drax
Again, I have huge respect for my hon. and gallant Friend, but it is dangerous to compare one country with another. I stand my ground on that.
I shall not speak for more than another minute as I know that others want to follow and I have not got much more to add. I have huge respect for my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). I will support him, although I do not like the element of delay. Why does not my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State conduct the assessment now, while the Bill is going through Parliament, as has already been suggested? That is perfectly possible. An assessment could be made without delay, and I would be grateful if that could be dealt with in the winding-up speeches.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
I noticed the Secretary of State commenting under his breath as my hon. Friend was making that point. It might be opportune, especially in the light of the votes that some of us will cast this afternoon, if the Secretary of State could reply to my hon. Friend’s point. If he did so now, we would not have to wait for another Minister to respond to the debate.
Richard Drax
I agree. I look forward to hearing whether that point is dealt with in the winding-up speeches.
Many hon. Members have said that wars have changed and perhaps there is no need for battalions of infantry. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) said that there was no longer a need for the number of battalions that we used to have. May I give three examples where boots on the ground would be needed, quite apart from any conventional war that we might have to fight? First, God forbid that the Northern Ireland troubles ever rose from the ashes again. We had 32,500 men and women in Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles. With a professional Army of 82,000 men—a large majority of whom are not bayonets, to use the Army lingo; many are back-up forces—we would be pushed to man that one commitment.
Secondly, the Falklands has been mentioned so many times. Baroness Thatcher was looking at cutting our armed forces just before the war broke out—I think my historical facts are right—and, as I understand it, afterwards she said, “Never again am I going to take our armed forces for granted.” Thirdly, for a big evacuation, potentially from a friendly country—let us say Kenya—we would need, without aircraft carriers, boots on the ground to secure an area around which our citizens could be extracted. This takes huge resources, immediate resources, professional resources.
I say to all those who work in the reserves, alongside whom I have worked, that I have enormous respect for them. This is not a question of denigrating the reservists. I have a huge amount of respect for them all and thank them from the bottom of my heart, as does the nation, for what they do. All I am saying is that the ratio of 70:30 should be reviewed and it should be 90:10 instead. Finally, my military sources tell me that senior officers say one thing in public, but that a very different message is given in private.
Mr Ellwood
It is a pleasure to participate in this important debate. I wish we had more such debates in the House of Commons and more regularly. It is a pleasure to follow my neighbour down in Dorset, my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), as it is to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), whom I congratulate on his Defence Committee appointment, and my hon. Friends the Members for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) and for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous).
This has been a powerful debate. I congratulate, as others have done, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier)—he says not to do so, but I will anyway—on the work that he has done. I congratulate also General Sir Graeme Lamb, with whom I know my hon. Friend worked closely in his work on the armed forces. New clause 1 is welcome, providing for an annual independent assessment of what the reserves are doing and, I hope, for an annual debate in the House on the reserve forces as we move forward.
New clause 3 is a little mischievous. It calls for further implementation of the plans to be halted, which means that things stop and we drop tools at this point. We do not know the time scale. That has not been clarified by the debate. I was a little concerned when my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) said that we should not be doing this in the first place if it is the wish of the House to go against the Government. That really worries me, because what is the genesis of new clause 3?
I am also concerned about Labour’s position. Labour Members were supportive on Second Reading and in the Committee, on which I served, but today they suddenly changed their tune. On their watch the MOD had to be put in special measures, because they burnt a £38 billion black hole in the budget.
Mr Ellwood
I am afraid that I do not have time to give way to the hon. Gentleman. Of course, Labour also cut TA training completely in 2009, so it is difficult to take lessons from Labour Members. It is opportunistic to join this argument now, as others have said.
Mr Baron
I think that my hon. Friend has inadvertently misrepresented what I said. I was commenting on the previous Secretary of State’s plans and his commitment to the House that there would be no wind-down of regular forces until the reservists were able to take their place, which my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) confirmed only a few minutes ago.
Mr Ellwood
I hope that the Secretary of State will respond to that point, because in an earlier intervention I asked the question to get to the heart of that aspect.
I am concerned about the message that would be sent to our allies, both NATO allies and the United States, if Parliament halted or interfered with the recruitment drive that the Bill is designed to enable. The redundancy notices for the regulars have already gone out, so it is clear that there is no quid pro quo and that we cannot stop this plan and keep the regular forces at the size we would allow. The Bill allows a method of influencing, and indeed improving, recruitment, through the relationships with employers and so forth.
On the capability gap, an important question was asked: how will the wider world perceive that? Any pause in the recruitment of reservists would be dangerous, because the TA is at a lower state of readiness. The idea is to replace 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reservists. Are they the same? No, of course they are not, but that raises the question of what world we are now working with.
I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border said. He touched on some of the concerns about how the conduct of war is changing. I asked those on the Opposition Front Bench to say exactly what it is, with our withdrawing from Afghanistan and reducing in size, to have a standing commitment, and what the armed forces, however they are comprised, will actually do, because the balance between war fighting, stabilisation and peacekeeping has changed. The idea that we have to win over local support is now more central than it ever has been. Infrastructure, development, local governance and the drive for agriculture have all been mentioned. All that is secondary to the war fighting that takes place, but in Afghanistan and Iraq the war fighting was conducted and completed relatively quickly. We lost in those cases in the peacekeeping and nation-building. That is where it is very interesting to see the TA provide value, because it has the linguistic skills and can come in when skills in banking, cyber-technology, civil service and governance are required.
Mr Brazier
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. The new commander of Sandhurst in the sand, which will be our most long-lasting legacy in Afghanistan, is of course a TA brigadier.
Mr Ellwood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is a long-term aspiration in helping Afghanistan.
My concern is whether this House will ever again entertain putting boots on the ground. I would like us to have a large standing Army, as others have mentioned, and to be that leader in the world, carrying that big stick. I ask that question because of my concern about the vote this place had on Syria. It was a very simple action that we would have been participating in, yet this House voted against the Government. Others say that perhaps that is not a yardstick for potential future interventions, and I quite understand that, but it could be that, because of the ghosts of Afghanistan and Iraq, interventions in future will have a light footprint and will be very different. I simply pose a question as to what our armed forces need to look like: do they need to look like what we have had in the past, or should they adapt to the type of footprint we will need in the future?
Dr Julian Lewis
The vote on Syria was absolutely different from any other vote, because it was not just about humanitarian assistance; it was about helping al-Qaeda take over another country, and many of us who support humanitarian assistance would not support that.
Mr Ellwood
I totally agree with my hon. Friend, who I know has spent a lot of time looking at the issues. The point I am trying to address is whether that situation will be repeated in the future. Will this House have an appetite to commit troops with boots on the ground or will it say, “What has it got to do with us? We cannot guarantee that we will vote on it”? We have to be prepared and ask ourselves what it is that our armed forces—[Interruption.] If hon. Members want to intervene, they may do so.
Mr Gray
Does my hon. Friend not realise that people such as me, who were very cynical before this debate but who have been persuaded by the argument that it would be wrong to put the target in legislation and have, therefore, moved towards the Government’s side, are now being persuaded by his argument in favour of a smaller Army, which is actually against what he is trying to achieve?
Mr Ellwood
My hon. Friend misunderstands me. I am not saying we should have a smaller Army; I am saying we should have faith in building up reservist forces with the capability to meet the challenges of the future. As a regular, I believe that the regular forces could easily adapt and be used in various situations, but I also have faith, as a result of the models we have seen in America and, indeed, Australia, that other skills sets can be used and that we can build the Territorial Army to match our requirements, not just for the security of our country and the protection of our overseas territories, or because of our NATO commitments, but because the conduct of war itself has changed. We need to consider that.
As a consequence of withdrawing from Afghanistan, we do not have one entire brigade training to go there and another recuperating after being there. The size of our armed forces needs to concertina. The new model army and the Glorious Revolution have been mentioned, but what happened to that army after the revolution? It was disbanded completely. This House needs to be able—very quickly—to expand and contract the size of the armed forces and be willing to do so as needs change. I do not believe it is right to have a massive standing Army when we are still uncertain about what we want it to do.
That is why I do not believe that the proposal in new clause 3 would be the right thing to do, because it would put a pause on developing the TA. It would stop us recruiting and building up the capability that we would be able to use in all the scenarios mentioned today. I urge hon. and right hon. Members to think very carefully about the damage new clause 3 would do and the message it would send if they vote in favour of it. It would be dangerous for the armed forces and dangerous for the Reserves.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
I defer to the military knowledge and experience of those who have spoken before me. The House has had the particular advantage of hearing the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) and it will now have the advantage of not hearing me repeat them.
My constituency of Harborough has a squadron of the Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeomanry. It is suffering from poor recruitment and I have one practical solution to offer those on the Ministry of Defence Front Bench and the Secretary of State in particular. In order to avoid the attrition rate—the wastage rate—of those who express an initial interest in serving in the reserves, the Territorial Army as was, we should bring them into the units and give them weapons training much more quickly, rather than wait for them to go through medical tests and so forth. Once we have grabbed them, got their interest and introduced them to the practical, military side of the reservists and their camaraderie, we can then decide whether they are fit for the role they wish to play or whether we should deploy them in a less front-end activity. That is a simple, practical proposition and I trust it would enable the Secretary of State and his Ministers to produce the 30,000 reservists and not to lose so many on the way to achieving that number.
Mr Philip Hammond
I think this is the first time that I have had the pleasure of addressing the House while you are in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I offer you my congratulations.
I congratulate all right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken this afternoon. This has been a good debate, during which many passionately held views have been expressed and much deep knowledge displayed. I thank those who served on the Public Bill Committee and scrutinised the Bill very effectively.
Most of all, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who led the debate so ably on this group of new clauses and amendments. He speaks with an authority on this subject that is unquestioned throughout the House, and when he speaks on this subject, we listen. By “we”, I mean not only Members of the House, but the Government.
What my hon. Friend has said to me and the House today about the crucial importance of protecting the distinctive ethos of the reserve movement, even as we move to an integrated armed forces, is compelling. He is absolutely right that we must get right the balance between integration and protecting that distinct ethos if we are to achieve our goals.
I am happy to have made a commitment to my hon. Friend to introduce in the other place an amendment that reflects his new clause 1, which I have to say is technically imperfect, to ensure that this House has an annual opportunity to consider an independent report, produced under statute by the RFCA, not only once, as is proposed in new clause 3, but every year—not just as we roll out the programme, but thereafter—so that we can monitor not just the expansion of our reserves, but the maintenance of them in future.
Mr Hammond
That will be for the House to determine, and the hon. Gentleman knows the mechanisms available. However, I expect to be held to account for our delivery of this agenda. I am confident that the Chairman of the Defence Committee will give me no quarter in holding me to account for the delivery of this immensely complex agenda.
Mr Hammond
I will make some progress, because I have very little time, and I want to respond to some of the points made during the debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made an extremely important point that I fear was nearly missed. One could be forgiven for thinking that the recruitment of reserves as part of Army 2020 is simply a question of backfilling or substituting for regulars, but he pointed out that as the nature of warfare changes and we need more specialist skills, we will find increasingly that specialists have to be recruited through the reserves from the civilian sector. With the creation of our cyber-reserve force, we are already seeing the truth of that statement, as people in highly skilled technical jobs in the private sector queue to join the cyber-reserve and offer their skills and expertise to the defence of our nation.
I am the first to acknowledge—I have done so before, and I want to do so again today—that increasing the size of our Army Reserve to 30,000 and sustaining them at that level is a challenging agenda. We are doing it in the face of ending combat operations in Afghanistan, and however strange some people may find this, the prospect of going into a combat zone is a huge recruiting sergeant for the armed forces, regular and reserve alike. We are also doing it against the backdrop, about which I have been completely frank, of challenges with the existing IT system.
We have to get the balance right between our central recruiting system and the vital role played by reserve units in mentoring new recruits. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) was absolutely right that the key to converting applicants into recruits and getting them through the training process is to get hold of them early at unit level and mentor them through that process. That is what we are doing.
Mr Cash
Does my right hon. Friend accept that what he says will happen in the House of Lords is way off in February? Will he not take the advice of my hon. Friends the Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and initiate the pause that is needed to get this matter right and then submit it to a binding decision of the House at this stage, rather than waiting until the Bill has been passed? Why can he not do that?
Mr Hammond
I will not do that because this is a long programme—a five-year programme—that will need continued scrutiny throughout its life. I am asking the House to give the Bill a Third Reading this afternoon so that we send a clear message to the Army, which needs the space to deliver this agenda and is confident that it can do so; to the many thousands of reservists up and down the country who commit their time and effort to the defence of this country; and to the many thousands more waiting in the wings, whom we are seeking to attract to join the reserve forces.
Mr Hammond
I must make some progress, because I have very little time and I want to leave a couple of minutes for my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury to wind up the debate.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury will not press new clause 2. It is essential that we manage the defence estate as a whole. We are on the brink of completing the appointment of a strategic business partner for the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, which will mean that we have the very best private sector estate management capability to deliver the defence estates programme. That will be to the benefit of the regulars and the reserves.
Mr Hammond
I will say something about new clause 3 and will then take an intervention from my hon. Friend.
First, I recognise that my hon. Friend is a passionate supporter of the armed forces. It is ironic that today, that passion has manifested itself in an attempt to block or inhibit the growth and reinvigoration of the reserves. I know that that is not what he wants. Indeed, I know that he would like to see more capability across our armed forces, not less. As I have made clear, we have no problem with submitting information to the House for scrutiny. By accepting new clause 1, we will deliver the intention behind subsection (1) of new clause 3. I believe that making it an annual report for annual scrutiny will provide for better scrutiny than what he is proposing.
I cannot accept the halt that is proposed in new clause 3. That would send out a signal now to the thousands of people who are in the reserve forces or are thinking of joining them. The Government have set out their plan and are legislating to deliver it. The Army has embraced the plan wholeheartedly. For Parliament to introduce additional tripwires at this stage would create uncertainty, undermine the message about the roll-out of improved terms and conditions, and cast doubt on our intention to spend the sizeable sum of £1.8 billion that is available to support this agenda. In short, it would make the whole agenda into a political football.
As my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) said in his contribution, the proper way to scrutinise the implementation of this programme is through the established mechanisms of the House—the annual report, Select Committee hearings and the reporting of data—and not by halting the roll-out of the programme. We do not do that elsewhere and we should not do that for our reserve forces.
What I am attempting to do is to ascribe the most transparent of motives to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), but listening to him I could not help detecting just a hint of an undertone of a hidden agenda. Maybe what he wants is not to help us to fix the challenges we face in the reserves agenda, but to find a reason to abandon the project. In his own words, he told the House:
“we could very easily reverse the cuts to the regulars”.
Mr Baron
Using language such as “tripwires” and apportioning motives that do not exist does not do my right hon. Friend any good at all. The bottom line is that it is perfectly right for Parliament to say, “Let us pause and examine in detail,” and it is in the Government’s gift to make it a very brief pause indeed. The Secretary of State has still not answered the question. Does he accept that the plan has changed since 2011? We have heard in the House that the previous Secretary of State said that the intention was not to wind down the regulars until we were sure that the reservists could take their place. When and why did that plan change?
Mr Hammond
I have heard these arguments from my hon. Friend before. I have always been clear that we have no choice but to reduce the size of the Regular Army to operate within our budgets. The difference between an Army of 102,000 and an Army of 82,000 is £1 billion a year. He does not have that funding available, and neither do the Opposition. If we are to operate within our budgets, we have no choice but to draw down the Regular Army as we withdraw from Afghanistan and to build up the reserve strength that will primarily be needed if we again become embroiled in an enduring operation with six-month troop rotations.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
Recruitment is critical to the success of this project. In Northern Ireland, almost all our reserve units are at 100% recruitment capacity. Why not extend and raise the ceiling for recruitment in successful areas?
Mr Hammond
I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that, although we have not publicised it, we have increased the recruiting cap on units in Northern Ireland to 115% of liability, and the Army will continue to consider increases in liability caps in other parts of the country where recruiting performance is strong. I can go further and tell him that a review is currently under way to look at trade skills available in Northern Ireland. Most of the reserves recruiting is trade skills-specific. If we find that pools of additional trade skills are recruitable, we will consider locating additional units in Northern Ireland to tap into them. We have to be agile and go where the potential recruits are and where the skills we need are.
I want to go briefly through some of the other points that have been raised. I want to nail the point my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay has made several times in debate and in the media. He says that a 40% or an 80% mobilisation rate is not achievable. We are looking at a maximum mobilisation of between 3,000 and 4,000 reservists at any given time, out of an Army Reserve of 30,000. By my maths, that is significantly below 40% or 80%. During Operation Telic in Iraq, 85% of reservists responded to call out—an 85% mobilisation rate—and Operation Herrick had a 79% mobilisation rate, so I do not quite understand his point.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The Secretary of State is not giving way and he has very little time to finish.
Mr Hammond
I also want to deal with the cost of the Reserves. The ratio is 1:5—the cost of training and maintaining a reservist is one fifth of the cost for a Regular Army soldier.
I will not dwell on the Opposition’s position; I think I have made my views known in interventions. However, I want to make a comment about new clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), which deals with mental health. He has a long and honourable record of raising this issue. While I hope he will not press new clause 4 to a vote, I would be prepared to ask the RFCAs, as part of their obligations under new clause 1, to include reservists’ mental health in the issues that they report on. I hope he will consider that helpful.
Finally, let me turn to new clause 6, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). His intentions are absolutely honourable and good: he wants to impose an obligation on employers to grant unpaid leave for training. We have not absolutely ruled out looking at that possibility in the future, but we have made a conscious decision that we want to do this working with employers, not against them. That has meant a couple of tough decisions on unpaid leave availability and discrimination rules. For now, we have decided to try to work with the grain, with employers, but if that does not work and we find there is a problem in the future, we will have an opportunity to return to this issue in the Armed Forces Act in 2016.
We have had a good debate. I urge the House to reject new clause 3 and embrace the concession we have made on new clause 1, so that we have an annual debate on the progress of the project in the House. I hope we can send from the House tonight a clear, cross-party message that we are behind the men and women of our reserve forces, who give so much for the defence of our nation.
Mr Brazier
May I say what a pleasure it is to speak for the first time under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker? I failed to declare my interest at the beginning of this debate: I am proud to have one son in the Regular Army and one in the Territorial Army.
This has been an excellent debate. I would like to mention two speeches in particular: the forensic analysis of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) and the piercing vision of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). They both gave the House a great deal to think about, as did many others, in excellent speeches.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for accepting the substance of new clause 1. I look forward to it being introduced in another place. I will indeed withdraw my new clause—I made it clear that what I wanted was for it to be properly discussed. He has been very patient with me pressing him on reserve matters, of which property is just one. The decision to adopt the substance of new clause 1, reinforced by many speeches from all parts of the House, sends out a message to the reserves that the House of Commons is behind the reserve forces, just as it is behind the regular forces. We are proud of both. Finally, I must ask colleagues not to vote for new clause 3, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). Much as I respect him, it would send out a disastrous message to the reserve forces at this sensitive time. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 3
Report on Future Reserves 2020
‘(1) Within one month of the passage of this Act, the Secretary of State shall make and lay before Parliament a report on the viability and cost effectiveness of the plans set out in Reserves in the Future Force 2020: Valuable and Valued, Cmd 8655, together with his recommendation on its further implementation.
(2) Further implementation of the plans shall be halted 40 days after the laying of the report unless both Houses shall have resolved to approve the recommendation from the Secretary of State contained in the report.’.—(Mr Baron.)
Provides for a Government report detailing the viability and cost-effectiveness of the plans set out in the White Paper on Reserves (Cmd 8655). Both Houses must approve the report and the Secretary of State’s subsequent recommendation in order for the implementation of the reforms to reserve forces to continue.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
This is the first time I have had the opportunity to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is a great pleasure to welcome you to the Chair. I want to begin by thanking the members of the Public Bill Committee, who did an outstanding job in ensuring that the Bill was subject to detailed scrutiny. As a Committee, we benefited particularly from the expertise of those who are or have been members of the armed forces, both regulars and reserves, a number of whom have contributed to our debate today.
The Bill deals with important matters, some, I accept, of a rather technical nature. In particular, I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who has had much praise heaped on him, quite properly, from all quarters of the House. He brought his deep understanding of current, and several historic, reserve issues to our deliberations in Committee and today. In fact, it was remarkable to be taken back by him well over a hundred years, thanks to his knowledge of reserve numbers before the first world war.
I should also like to thank the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) for fulfilling her promise on Second Reading to give the Bill a fair wind. I understand that she is not with us this evening. I completely understand why, and I ask her colleagues to pass on my kind words and hope that she shortly becomes a grandmother again. Her contributions in Committee were insightful and constructive, with the enthusiastic assistance of her shadow Front-Bench colleague, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who frequently brought his experience as a Defence Minister to bear on our proceedings. They both ensured that the Bill left Committee having been thoroughly examined, after more than 40 hours of debate.
Defence of the UK and the protection of our national interests can be achieved only if we provide our armed forces with the capabilities they need to operate effectively. We have a duty to them to ensure they have the tools they need in terms of manpower, training, equipment and logistical support. The Bill will allow significant improvements to the way in which defence operates in the two crucial areas of procurement of equipment and support, and of rebuilding our reserve forces.
There is widespread agreement that the procurement and support of defence equipment can and must be improved. It is clear from our debate in Committee that there is a consensus on the need for reform. In the past, under Governments of both parties, too often defence procurement has not delivered the equipment needed by our armed forces on time or within budget. By producing for the first time a balanced and affordable equipment programme, we have already made significant progress in improving the framework in which defence equipment is procured. Now is the time to make further structural changes to ensure that the ground we have already gained is not lost in the future.
The outline of our approach on procurement reform was set out in the White Paper “Better Defence Acquisition”, which we published on 10 June. Our preference, as we expressed around the time of the White Paper, is to transform the existing Defence Equipment and Support organisation into a Government-owned, contractor-operated organisation—a GoCo. But as we have explained, it not a foregone conclusion that a GoCo will be chosen instead of a public sector comparator, which we are calling DE&S-plus.
In addition, as was made clear in the written ministerial statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, the Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Defence have recently completed a review into the viability of the matériel strategy commercial competition. After a rigorous examination, it concluded that a viable commercial competition for a GoCo provider exists, albeit with risks. We welcomed this conclusion; indeed, we have already made considerable progress in addressing the recommendations and managing the risks the report highlights, including strengthening the DE&S-plus team.
The report also recommended that any further reduction in the number of bidders should stimulate a formal reconsideration and decision on whether to proceed further with the GoCo option. Last week, we received through this competition, which we have been running in parallel with the Bill, one bid for a GoCo from Materiel Acquisition Partners, a consortium led by Bechtel, with PA Consulting and PricewaterhouseCoopers. This is a complex, detailed proposal, running to more than 1,200 pages, which is currently being evaluated to understand what benefits it offers, at what cost and with what conditions. We intend to subject the bid to run a GoCo to a rigorous comparison with the public sector comparator, DE&S-plus. We expect a proposal from the team developing the DE&S-plus option shortly.
Colleagues have asked me, rightly, about what DE&S-plus means. As we have said, we believe that the GoCo option is most likely to embed and sustain the significant behavioural change required to transform defence acquisition, but we need to test this, and we are testing the GoCo proposition against the best that we could do wholly within the public sector. The DE&S-plus proposition is being worked up now. I cannot give much detail at this stage, as I would not want to compromise its proposal. What I can say is that we are focusing on ensuring an optimum balance between the need for an organisation that has the freedom to run its affairs in a way that best meets Ministry of Defence needs, and retaining and building on the values of the public sector. Should the GoCo option be the chosen way forward, the legislation that we have set out in part 1 of the Bill is essential to ensure that it can operate effectively without delay.
The Secretary of State’s written ministerial statement yesterday also announced the withdrawal of the other consortium competing to run a potential GoCo—clearly, that is regrettable. The Ministry of Defence, with the Cabinet Office and the Treasury, will now study the detailed proposal received from Materiel Acquisition Partners. In parallel, the DE&S-plus team will continue to refine and enhance their proposition. This analysis will inform a decision on whether it is in the public interest to proceed with only a single commercial bidder and a public sector comparator, and a further statement will be made once this process is complete. All I can say at this stage is that the bid we have on the table is substantial and from a consortium of world-class private sector businesses.
While analysing these proposals, we are going to continue to work with our allies and with industry, who have expressed a desire to understand how the potential changes to the matériel strategy for DE&S would work. We are confident that through this engagement we will work to determine how a GoCo would manage our international business and relations with industry as effectively as possible.
One of the most valuable aspects of the Committee was the opportunity it provided me to set out the GoCo proposal in greater detail than was possible in the White Paper. We have been able to describe the mechanisms, in addition to the legislation through which the Government will exercise strategic control over a GoCo. For example, through both this Bill and the contract, the GoCo will be required to protect information that is sensitive for national security or commercial reasons. Much of our debate in Committee centred on protecting confidential information and on intellectual property.
Open competition will usually be the best way of ensuring value for taxpayers’ money. However, sometimes there is only a single provider of a capability we require, and sometimes the need to maintain critical national industrial capabilities or sovereign control of the intellectual property in equipment programmes requires us to place contracts with UK companies without a competitive process. This so-called single-source procurement typically accounts for about 45%—some £6 billion a year—of the total that the Ministry of Defence spends on defence equipment and support, and it is likely to remain at that level for the foreseeable future.
The MOD currently uses a framework for single-source procurement that has remained largely unchanged for the past 45 years. It is a system that is failing the taxpayer—neither does it help industry to remain competitive in an increasingly globalised world. It is therefore in the interests of both the MOD and its suppliers to create a framework with incentives to deliver efficient and competitive behaviour. Part 2, based on the 2011 report by Lord Currie of Marylebone, addresses this need. It sets out a new framework based on transparency, with more and better information on costs, stronger supplier efficiency incentives and stronger governance arrangements. At its core is the principle that industry gets a fair profit in exchange for providing the Ministry of Defence with transparency on cost and better value for money. To oversee that new framework, the Bill will create a small, non-departmental public body to be known as the single source regulations office with approximately 30 staff. That will replace the existing pricing review board. The SSRO’s role will be to keep the statutory framework under review and to monitor adherence to it. The new arrangements will operate routinely through agreement between the Ministry of Defence and industry, but where agreement cannot be reached, the SSRO will have the power to make binding determinations on both parties.
Finally, the third part of the Bill relates to our reserve forces. We have already had a long debate on many aspects of that this afternoon and, as has been made clear by everyone who spoke, the reserves already make an important contribution to military effectiveness. The White Paper of July makes it clear that we expect them to make an even greater contribution in the future. We need to update the legislation that supports the revitalised reserve forces and their contribution to defence. Part 3 remedies that situation.
The title of the White Paper published by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State last July encapsulates the Government’s attitude towards the reserve forces, as they are both “valuable and valued”. The Bill reflects that and replaces the outdated title of the Territorial Army with the Army Reserve, which not only far more accurately describes the reserves’ current role, but is a change that reservists themselves have resoundingly called for.
The Bill also allows reservists to be mobilised for the breadth of tasks carried out by regular forces, which is not currently the case. It recognises the contribution that employers make in supporting our reserve forces, by providing an additional monthly payment, per reservist, to small and medium-sized enterprises when their reservist employees are mobilised.
Finally, the Bill contains a measure to ensure that reservists are not disadvantaged by their reserve service. Reserve service does not count towards the two-year qualifying period for claims of unfair dismissal. For claims where the reason for dismissal is, or is primarily because, the individual is a reservist, we will remove that two-year qualifying period.
In conclusion, the thread that runs throughout the Bill is the need to deliver the equipment and support that our armed forces need, while ensuring a fair deal for reservists, their employers, industry and the public. The Bill makes important changes to the way in which we might deliver defence capabilities in future and I commend it to the House.
Mr Kevan Jones
I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) for the constructive way in which he has engaged with the Opposition. We are not used to that—certainly not from the Secretary of State—on Bills or things to do with defence. The Committee as a whole gave a good and detailed examination of all aspects of the Bill. I accept that parts of it are still developing as we speak. Events this week have shown that with the withdrawal of one of the contractors for the proposed GoCo.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) for her work on the Bill. I also add my best wishes as she should hopefully become a grandmother for the second time in the next few hours. May I also thank the members of the Committee, the Clerks and the witnesses who came before us? I thank, too, the Minister’s hard-working civil servants who, at times, had to think on their feet when replying to some of the points that were made. I thank them on behalf of the Committee for their work.
I do not think that there is any disagreement in the House that we want to ensure that we procure the best equipment and support for members of our armed forces. In the debate this afternoon, it has been recognised that we should thank the men and women of our armed forces for the contribution they make to our safety. We often take that for granted, but we should never do so because they put their lives at risk to ensure that we can sleep safely in our beds at night.
The first part of the Bill concerns defence procurement. The Government have put forward two options: a GoCo or DE&S-plus. It was clear in Committee and is still quite clear that there is a determination within the MOD that a GoCo should be the way forward—
Mr Jones
I am sorry that the Secretary of State says that, but that was not the tenor of what we heard in Committee. Clearly, the withdrawal of one of the potential bidders has left serious questions about the future of the GoCo. We will certainly look closely at how the process goes forward.
Mr Hammond
For the sake of the record, I have said many times before in this House and say again today that we are open-minded about the choice between the GoCo and the DE&S-plus solution. We understand that the GoCo will bring certain advantages, but DE&S-plus might bring different advantages. We will weigh the two in the balance and select the solution that is in the best interests of the taxpayer and the armed forces.
Mr Jones
I am pleased to hear that, but I am also rather sceptical about what the Secretary of State says. Clearly, the emphasis in Committee and the mood music have been that the GoCo seems to be the main show in town, and there has been scant examination of what DE&S-plus will do. We must ensure that as the process goes ahead and the Bill goes to the other place proper scrutiny is maintained. Not only is this a major change to how we procure defence equipment in this country but it will have an impact on our relationships with international allies.
Mr Dunne
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s final point: this clearly needs to be scrutinised properly. However, let me gently make the point to him that part 1 of the Bill inevitably focused on a GoCo rather than DE&S-plus because DE&S-plus does not need legislation whereas a GoCo does.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
We have been here before with such privatisations, but surely the concept of competition is stretched to absurdity when there is only one bidder. We risk demoralising the staff we employ at the moment; today, we did not even reach the part of the Bill that would have given them the assurances that are needed about their long-term employment prospects.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As the process goes forward, there is obviously a lot of concern among people who work in defence procurement. It is important that things are brought to a conclusion so that they can have some reassurance. It will be interesting to see how the process goes ahead with just one bidder. We need to ensure that that is scrutinised in the other place, as I am sure it will be. I hope that the Minister will keep us informed in the House about that ongoing process.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
One of the key concerns was that if a new provider was created to run the GoCo it would effectively be difficult for another provider ever to come in and take it on. Are not those concerns aggravated by the fact that we have only one bidder going through the process to start with?
Mr Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that question and for his work in Committee. He raises an interesting point, as one of the concerns raised in Committee was what would happen after the nine-year process as regards renegotiating the contract. We will now have only one contractor who, if successful, will certainly be in pole position come the renegotiation at the end of the contract, whether or not any others are able to bid. We must consider those issues very carefully in the coming months as the process develops.
The other issues on which we spent a lot of time and about which there are still concerns are those on intellectual property and single-source procurement, about which we had numerous discussions in Committee. I think that industry still has concerns on those points. Part of the process is about not only reassuring the work force but ensuring confidence about working with the defence sector, because it is a major employer in this country. It is also important to ensure that we are at the leading edge of not only defence technology but security technology. Full involvement of the sector throughout the process will be very important. I think that the Bill will have an interesting passage through the other place.
We spent most of the afternoon on the reserves part of the Bill. I reiterate the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), the shadow Secretary of State: Labour Members—and Members generally—look with pride on the contribution that reservists make to our armed forces. I have seen them at first hand, in both Iraq and Afghanistan; they are very brave men and women, doing a fantastic job on our behalf.
On the process ahead, I welcome the Government’s slight change of heart on producing an annual report. May I say thank you to the Secretary of State for including mental health in that report? If he wishes for any assistance with the organisation involved, in terms of how it approaches that, I am quite willing to engage, or point him in the direction of other organisations that will be interested in knowing how mental health can be seen as a priority, because there is an issue, whether we like it or not, with reservists and mental health. I know that the Government have followed through on work that we did in government and have added to that, in terms of making sure that veterans’ mental health is seen as a priority.
On the overall position of reservists, after this afternoon’s debate, I would say that the jury was still out, but we did get some clarification from the Secretary of State on the reduction in the Regular Army. Remember, when the strategic defence and security review was first announced by the Prime Minister, there was to have been a reduction of 7,000; then the figure went down from 95,000 to 80,000. I think the Secretary of State was very candid this afternoon: that was about money, not about what was best for our armed forces.
Mr Jones
Well, we can have a debate about that; the Secretary of State still bandies around the £38 billion figure. What he and many others seem to forget is that there was also the impact on the defence budget of the 9% decrease that this Government brought in as part of the SDSR.
On monitoring how the changes go forward, the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) has done a fantastic job. He has been an assiduous champion of reservists for many years. When we were in government, he worked closely with the then Secretary of State to try to improve the lot of reservists. He raises an interesting point about the issues between the regulars and the reserve forces. There has been, in some quarters of the Army, a view that somehow the reserves are second-best. It will be important to ensure that that is not the case going forward.
It was interesting to hear General Sir Peter Wall say that the proposals were the way forward. When we were in government, he was part of the senior command of the Army that recommended the £20 million cut for the reserve forces. It is important that senior officers in the Regular Army fully buy into the process, because that is how we will make sure that we have the joined-up approach that we require.
The Secretary of State has moved a lot this afternoon; he has gone from holding the position that we should not have annual reports to giving a commitment to them. However, we need parliamentary time, so that the report does not just sit on a shelf in the Library, but is debated on the Floor of the House. I tell him gently that the more engagement he has, not only with the Opposition, but with his party’s Back Benchers, the better, when it comes to making sure that the best intentions that we all have for our armed forces are realised.
The nonsense that we are still going through—we are being barred from speaking to senior officers, and barred from military bases—is not helpful. When I had a role in the Ministry of Defence, I took the view that the more engagement that parliamentarians, irrespective of political party, have with members of the armed forces, the better—and not only for MPs’ understanding; members of the armed forces also get a lot out of coming to understand how this place and politicians operate.
Mr Hammond
For the record, we have, as far as I am aware, arranged for the Opposition Front-Bench team and individual members of it to visit military bases.
Mr Hammond
I am sure we have. If the hon. Gentleman wants to contact me—I have said this to the shadow Secretary of State—and let me know where they would like to go and when they would like to go, we will facilitate it.
Mr Jones
That is a very good change of heart. [Interruption.] It is a change of heart; that is not what has been going on over the past few years since the right hon. Gentleman has been Secretary of State. I know it is an issue that the Chairman of the Select Committee has raised as well. I take that at face value and we will test the system, as the Secretary of State has made the offer on the Floor of the House.
We will not press the motion to a vote—[Interruption.] The Minister is chuntering away. The shadow Secretary of State wrote to the chiefs of the armed forces, wanting to meet them, and I have here a note from this afternoon which says that the MOD just rang the shadow Secretary of State’s office to say that the pre-arranged meetings with several chiefs have been cancelled because there is a change in protocol and he must now arrange the meetings through the Secretary of State’s office. Under the old process, the request would be made and the Minister would sign it off at the end. I know that he is paranoid about leaks, and the process is not helping.
I conclude by wishing the Bill well when it goes to the other place.
Mr Arbuthnot
The focus of debate today has been on the reserves, but the issue of the withdrawal of one of the only two remaining bidding consortia from the competition to run the equipment procurement for the Minister of Defence is central to the defence procurement of this country, and I would like to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) to explain.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State intervened on the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) to say that the private sector bid will be weighed against the DE&S-plus bid, but I thought the review that my right hon. Friend announced yesterday was precisely into the question of whether that weighing-up would take place. I am not entirely sure that my right hon. Friend has got the Treasury and the Cabinet Office on his side on that point.
Mr Dunne
I will happily try to clarify the position to my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee. There are two processes happening, one as a result of the single GoCo bidder. As was made very clear in the statement that my right hon. Friend laid before the House yesterday, that would require a further review across Government as to the validity of the competition. Secondly, we at the Ministry of Defence will be assessing the bid that we have on the table for a GoCo with the DE&S-plus proposal, when we have it, to see which provides the best solution for defence.
Mr Arbuthnot
I am grateful for that clarification. So when will my hon. Friend receive the DE&S-plus bid? It would be good if he knew exactly what that DE&S-plus bid was. Will it be days, weeks or months? It is an initiative forming within his own Department and it might be better that we all discover what it is sooner rather than later.
The Defence Committee has to take evidence on this fundamental shift in the circumstances surrounding the central plank of our country’s defence procurement. We need a clear time scale to know when we should take evidence, as Ministers need to realise. Scrutiny of what they do will be determined by the Select Committee and not by them.
Finally, to what do my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend attribute the fact that they started with three private sector bidders and they are now down to one? What caused that?
Martin Horwood
In the time available, I would like to say that I think that the background to the Bill is both the challenge of deficit reduction and the greater challenge of a new military and security landscape, to which the Bill forms part of an imaginative and strategic Government response. Those challenges also bring opportunities, such as the opportunity for more efficient and cost-effective defence procurement. We on these Benches and our noble Friends in the House of Lords have raised some questions about the GoCo model, but I think that whichever model is eventually chosen will offer the opportunity to improve on the past history of defence procurement. The other opportunities are obviously those offered for reservists by the Bill, including a new name and status, new employment protections, the new possibility of paid leave—
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In yesterday’s debate on women and the cost of living, I asked the Economic Secretary to the Treasury a question about the bonuses paid to men being double the size of those paid to women. I spoke to her in the Lobby tonight. Her reply yesterday was about pay, but my question was about bonuses. Is it right and proper for that to be clarified in Hansard tonight, and perhaps by the hon. Lady in person?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It is not a point of order, but it is certainly a point of clarification, which the hon. Gentleman has achieved.
Business without Debate
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
St Raphael’s Hospice (Cheam)
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
The petition relates to the future of St Raphael’s hospice in my constituency, which is being put at risk by the actions of the trustees of the charity that owns it, the Daughters of the Cross. The threat to the hospice, which is much loved and respected, has led staff, volunteers and the families of people who have used it to collect more than 5,900 signatures on a petition calling on the Vatican to intervene. Next week the chair of the hospice’s advisory committee, Dr Ron McKeran, and I will meet the Pope’s representative in this country, the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Mennini, to tell him about the petition and the more than 5,900 signatures collected from the public and urge him to use his good offices to secure a resolution to the dispute between the staff and volunteers and the charity.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of the UK,
Declares that the future of St Raphael’s hospice has been put in doubt by plans drawn up by Daughters of the Cross, a charity that funds the hospice, and by plans to sell off St Anthony’s hospital, which shares the site with the hospice and provides administrative and other support services worth up to a million pounds a year; further, that the sale of the hospital will break the funding link with the hospice and undermine the Christian character of the institution; further, that the Petitioners regret that rather than engaging with the staff and supporters of the hospice and hospital to find a mutually agreed solution to the future of both institutions, the charity has pursued a course of action that is not widely supported; and further, that the Trustees have failed to grasp that the success and respect in which both institutions are held is the result of a shared endeavour between themselves, the staff and volunteers and the local community who raise and donate the funds to pay for them.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons thanks Her Majesty’s Government for raising the matter with the relevant authorities in the Vatican; further, that the House urges the Papal authorities to intervene to protect the ethos of St Anthony’s hospital and its special relationship with St Raphael’s hospice; and further, that the House holds a debate on the future of St Raphael’s hospice and possible ways forward.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
[P001297]
DEFRA Office (Alnwick)
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I am glad to have the opportunity to raise a matter that is of great concern in Alnwick in my constituency, particularly as the Minister responding is the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), who knows a thing or two about the problems of rural areas, as he represents one himself. We have already met to discuss the problem, and he of course has come to it after all the key decisions have been taken, but I still hope that he will use his good offices to try to improve the situation for the staff at Alnwick.
Lion House, which has been rebuilt in recent years, has been in Alnwick since long before the first of my many years in this House. The reason we are considering this issue, which involves 40 jobs, is the Cabinet Office’s shared service centre initiative, which began in 2004 under the then Labour Government and was refashioned in 2011 by the present Government, and which has been subjected to severe criticism by the National Audit Office throughout for not delivering the savings it promised.
The office has a long history. About 30 years ago it ceased to be the regional office of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because the Department gave up its network of regional offices. I went to see the then Agriculture Minister, Peter Walker, who was the kind of Tory we do not see many of these days. He was extremely helpful. I suggested to him that he find other work for the office from the central work of the Department, and he did: library functions were transferred to Alnwick and in subsequent years the staff moved on to other work, in particular the handling of civil servants’ expenses. They could have given a lesson or two to the House authorities and the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority on the efficiency with which they managed their operations. Indeed, I am going to suggest to IPSA that it might move its work from central London to DEFRA’s Alnwick office. I will come back to that. The staff earned a very good reputation, and not just in DEFRA—they provided a service to several Departments.
What is to happen? A company has been formed, 75% of which is owned by a French company called Steria and 25% by the Government. That immediately prompts the question: what do the Government intend to do with their ownership and board membership of the company? Will they use them to good effect?
My hon. Friend the Minister has indicated to me that the work is likely to remain at Alnwick for 20 months while the company considers how it will be handled in the future. That raises the question how likely it is that the work will be offshored, perhaps to India or who knows where. There are different views on the matter. The unions are fairly convinced that the work will be offshored and Steria seems to have a commitment to offshoring as a major part of its operation. Of course, there are other sites involved, not just Alnwick. The Cabinet Office’s position is that non-customer-facing jobs will be offshored. I am not sure what that means when we are talking about civil servants and their personal expense claims. I think that they are customers of the service, so in that respect it is a customer-facing service.
What does the period of 20 months really mean? I was concerned to receive a letter from my hon. Friend in which he wrote that the company would
“continue to occupy accommodation at Alnwick (Lion House)”.
Does that mean that the work will continue for 20 months or that the company will just pay the rent of an increasingly empty building—which is already a matter of concern—for 20 months? Some rather unhelpful phraseology has crept in.
The situation is very worrying for staff. Let us consider their position under TUPE and the transfer arrangements. The unions have negotiated an agreement that is referred to as TUPE-plus. There seems to be some acceptance that, as these things go, it is not a bad agreement, but I would be interested to hear my hon. Friend the Minister explain what will be available to staff. During or after the 20-month period, will some of them be offered other civil service posts? It has been suggested that they will, but the trouble is that many of the posts may be down in Tyneside or even much further away, perhaps over in Carlisle, where the Rural Payments Agency is situated. What did the Department’s equality impact assessment have to say about the situation and about people with caring responsibilities who cannot easily move? They do very good work in the Alnwick office, but they would not be able to continue to provide a good service to the Government if they were told that they had to move a long distance away. That raises a question about what the Department will do, if outsourcing goes ahead, to seek other work for its staff. It seems to me that if there is a period in which the new company reviews what it does, that period should be used to look for other work that could be done at the Alnwick office, as Peter Walker did 30 years ago.
After all, this is the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and it exists to promote the health of rural communities, so it must not be in the business of relocating jobs from rural to urban areas. When change has to happen in particular functions, the natural response of the Department ought to be to see how far it can relocate work from urban to rural areas. Of the urban centres, I am thinking particularly about central London, where the Department still carries out activities that need to be considered for out-posting to its rural centres, of which Alnwick is one.
Other questions have been asked about the changes. The Public and Commercial Services union has asked about the tax status of the new company. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General said in a letter to me that the joint venture
“will promote UK growth as a UK based taxpayer”.
What assessment has been made of the overall tax impact, which obviously includes VAT, and the impact of any offshoring, as well as of the domicile in France of the majority owner of the new company, Steria, which is a French company? The union has also asked about the handling of civil servants’ personal data if there is outsourcing to a country that does not have the rigorous data protection regime of this country. Ministers must address that question.
I will sum up the questions that the Minister must answer, and if there are any that he cannot answer tonight, I hope that he will do so by letter. What use will the Government make of their 25% ownership? Will they use it to encourage keeping jobs local, where that is an efficient outcome? I do not expect the Department to do so if there will not be a good outcome and value for money for the taxpayer, but there is pretty good evidence that Alnwick provides good value for money. I want the Government to use their participation in the company structure to encourage sourcing jobs locally wherever possible.
How committed is the new company to outsourcing? I am meeting people from it shortly, and I will put the same question to them, but the Government must have formed a view. What will happen in the 20 months? Will the work stay at Alnwick during that period, or will the office be virtually emptied with the work leaving earlier? Will the office be viable for the small number of remaining staff if most jobs go? What will the company and the Department do to seek other work if the Alnwick office loses its current work to outsourcing, and will alternative public service jobs be offered? What is the equality impact assessment in respect of carers, especially women? What is the tax impact, and what is the situation in relation to personal data?
Above all, does DEFRA recognise that it is the Department for rural affairs and is supposed to be committed to that role? How is it going to demonstrate that commitment to the people of the Alnwick area? Forty jobs may not seem many in the London context, but they have a big impact in a small rural community such as Alnwick, where there are not many such professional jobs and where the quality of locally available staff has been clearly demonstrated.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) not just for how he is currently representing his constituents as regards the Alnwick office, but for how he has done so, as we have heard, over many years—going back to the era when Peter Walker was the Secretary of State. I am sure that they are very grateful for and well aware of all that he has done to support them.
My right hon. Friend has set out the issues from his perspective. I will set out the Government’s point of view on the office in Alnwick and its history. The building is owned by the Department on a freehold basis. There are three occupants: DEFRA, Northumberland county council and the newly created joint venture organisation that we have heard about, Shared Services Connected Ltd. I will take each of those in turn.
The DEFRA network has a large estate spanning England and Wales that supports the delivery of its business. That includes officers, operational depots and scientific sites. The cost of the estate has come down significantly since 2011. By 2015, the savings from exiting properties and reducing the amount of space that we use will reach about £53 million per annum. However, the annual cost will still be about £113 million. We will look for ways to reduce that further. In Alnwick, DEFRA occupies office space for about 24 full-time equivalent staff who are focused on the management of information and providing warehouse facilities for archiving. There are also two full-time equivalent members of staff from the Rural Payments Agency.
Northumberland county council occupies 2,000 square feet of the Alnwick site. That lease expires on 2 February 2017, although a mutual break is available with 12 months’ notice from February 2015. However, there is no indication that Northumberland county council is looking to vacate the site.
Stimulating economic growth is a top priority for the Government. We want rural areas to contribute to and benefit from that growth. As my right hon. Friend kindly pointed out, I represent a rural area, although it is perhaps not as far flung and widely set as his area. None the less, it is a rural area and it faces many similar challenges. The Government have introduced a wide range of policies and initiatives to promote business and deliver growth in urban and rural areas, including new infrastructure, raising skill levels and supporting business, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, which make up a significant element of the rural economy, as my right hon. Friend knows.
The roll-out of superfast broadband infrastructure is vital to sustainable economic growth and the creation of jobs in rural areas. Online small businesses, whether rural or urban, grow four to eight times faster than their offline counterparts. The Government are investing £530 million in rural broadband up to 2015, which, through match funding, will result in up to £1.2 billion of public funds. The pace of progress is accelerating, with 42 of the 44 local projects contracted, including all of those in the south-west. Across the UK, 10,000 rural properties are being connected each week. As was announced in the spending review, a further £250 million will be available from 2015 to extend superfast broadband to 95% of UK premises by 2017.
I am setting out these policies to establish that the Government are very much committed to seeing rural areas share in the economic growth that we are delivering, in contrast to the position that we inherited.
Sir Alan Beith
I am pleased that my hon. Friend has responsibility for this area, not least because Northumberland is way ahead of the field in its work on rural broadband. However, if small businesses can operate from rural locations, so can the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
Dan Rogerson
Absolutely, we can. I have set out the history of the office. As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, it has shown that it can be a very efficient place from which to operate. We want to get to the position where the new company recognises that. What is being delivered there must be so competitive that it is attractive on a continuing basis. We would welcome that, but it must be a matter for the new shared venture company.
We are taking other action to support the rural economy, including improving competitiveness and skills, investing in rural tourism, and supporting new micro-enterprises and those that have aspirations to grow. We have established five pilot rural growth networks, which aim to tackle the barriers to economic growth in rural areas, such as the shortage of work premises, slow internet connectivity, which I have mentioned, and fragmented business networks.
DEFRA’s rural development programme for England has, to date, invested more than £400 million in projects to grow the rural economy. Completed projects have created more than 8,500 new jobs and safeguarded a further 9,700. The next seven-year rural development programme is a major opportunity to continue to invest in rural growth and the environment. We are working together with interested groups to design a programme that makes a measurable contribution to improving the environment and economic growth, while providing real value for money. The civil service is moving to being faster, smaller and more unified, and sharing services is a central part of that. The next generation shared services strategy sets out a new model to share human resources, procurement, finance and payroll functions with five centres, instead of the current eight, to deliver more efficient and cost-effective services.
As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the Government signed an agreement on 1 November 2013 with Steria Ltd to create a joint venture partnership with Government. The new company, Shared Services Connected Ltd, has been formed initially from a consolidation of some existing shared service centres: the Department for Work and Pensions, DEFRA and the Environment Agency, with in-scope services from UK Shared Business Services Ltd expected to become part of SSCL by 2015. All DEFRA staff previously engaged in the delivery of shared services transferred to the new organisation from 1 November 2013. Services to existing customers are being maintained and delivered out of DEFRA offices in Alnwick and York.
The creation of SSCL is a key part of the civil service reform plan, which will harness industry best practice to deliver Government back-office functions more efficiently. Transforming back-office operations across Government could help to deliver between £400 million and £600 million in savings for the taxpayer, freeing up scarce resources to be better spent on front-line services. Economies of scale will enable Steria to drive down costs and improve service levels by sharing expertise across customers, adopting common processes and systems and investing in new tools. To be a competitive and viable business, SSCL needs to be in line with other companies of this kind, which see some non-customer-facing transactional roles being sourced offshore. As longer term transformation plans are agreed, SSCL will consult staff and representatives. Assistance will be provided to any affected staff, including reinstatement and redeployment opportunities.
Over time, the objective is to establish SSCL as the pre-eminent provider of shared services to UK central Government and the wider public sector. By migrating clients to a low-cost shared service model, it is estimated that total benefits delivered by SSCL will be in excess of £l billion. It is expected that in the course of the next couple of years there will be some site consolidation from the nine existing delivery sites, and we expect some staff reductions. Steria has made a number of commitments on behalf of SSCL, including: no compulsory redundancies in the first six months, an intent to minimise the need for compulsory redundancies through work force planning, and a series of redundancy avoidance measures during the transformation period. Steria has also agreed that any final decisions on location will not be made for six months. That will be a business-based decision. My right hon. Friend will be well aware that this is a key point. There will be a chance to demonstrate office efficiency, given the low cost of locating in the base, the ownership of the premises and so on, so there is a good case to be made to Steria for the Alnwick office. However, the decision will ultimately be based on what it aims to deliver to Government and the taxpayer.
With regard to shared services staff currently based in DEFRA’s Alnwick office, we have an agreement that SSCL will continue to occupy accommodation at Alnwick Lion House for a period of 20 months. That is an update on the minimum 12-month commitment that was previously communicated. That represents progress in the right direction, and my right hon. Friend’s efforts to focus attention on what has been achieved at Alnwick have played a part in that. The Department is well aware of what it has delivered over many years.
Sir Alan Beith
May I press my hon. Friend on the 20-month period? The phrase “occupy accommodation” is unpersuasive. I had understood him to anticipate that in the 20-month period the work would be likely to remain there, although that would not involve an absolute guarantee on the number of jobs that would remain during that period. Will he clarify that for me?
Dan Rogerson
I understand my right hon. Friend’s concern about that. He is right that, in a period of transition, members of staff might look to the future and decide whether to look for other opportunities, while others will stay on. The agreement is as described, which is to say that the accommodation will continue to be occupied. The company’s plans for carrying out the activity there is essentially a matter that he will have to take up with the company itself, but he has certainly put his concerns on the record tonight. I am happy to take those concerns back, so that we can get a little more clarity for him and his constituents about what that might mean.
My right hon. Friend asked what staff could expect. There is an expectation that other opportunities for staff will be put forward first, so that options for redeployment can be explored. I have a great deal of sympathy generally for his view about Government jobs in rural areas. The tax office in my constituency went during the last Government drive to narrow the HMRC estate, which was a matter of great sadness. As a Government, we need to ensure that we explore all the options for keeping jobs in rural areas. He was generous enough to point out that I am relatively new to my responsibilities, but I know that previous Ministers will have made the case for keeping as many jobs as possible in rural areas, and I am keen to do so too, alongside ensuring the private sector investment that we are stimulating in the ways that I have set out.
The company’s tax position is clearly not a matter for DEFRA, but my right hon. Friend asked that I seek further information for him, and I am happy to do so. He also made a fair point about how the Government will use their stake in the new organisation. Clearly we will want to ensure that lessons are learned and that the objectives of the original project to make efficiencies are met, but there might also be opportunities to ensure that the company takes into consideration some of the points he has raised this evening. Again, I can feed his concerns about that through to ministerial colleagues in the Cabinet Office.
The shape of what will happen at the office has not been decided—that is a matter for the new organisation to take forward. I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend is in discussions with the company, which is a sensible way for him to proceed. I thank him for the diligent way in which he has pursued this matter. Having been in this role for about a month, I have heard from him on several occasions—through parliamentary questions, in discussions with officials and, now, on the Floor of the House. I know that he will continue to ensure that his constituents get the very best service as the transformation project moves forward.
I hope I have given my right hon. Friend a little reassurance that we recognise the huge achievements of people at the Alnwick office, who will be well placed to make the case for how efficient they have been in the duties they have discharged. The commitment to continue to occupy the accommodation in Alnwick for 20 months goes much further than the original 12 months. Some of the questions he has raised tonight will be considered during that period and the answers will come forward. I am happy to remain in contact with him about this matter, and in particular about the questions he has posed that I have been unable to answer without reference to ministerial colleagues.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Corrections
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Offences Against Children
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Diana Johnson
To ask the Attorney-General how many referrals have been made to the Crown Prosecution Service by the police regarding child sexual offences in each of the last five years.
[Official Report, 1 November 2013, Vol. 569, c. 609-10W.]
Letter of correction from Oliver Heald:
An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) on 1 November 2013.
The full answer given was as follows:
The Solicitor-General
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) does not maintain a central record of the number of referrals made to the CPS by the police for allegations of child sexual offences. The CPS does identify, by way of a monitoring flag, the number of pre-charge decisions made against suspects alleged to have been involved in the sexual abuse of children. The following table sets out the number of such decisions in each of the last five years:
Pre-Charge Decisions | |
|---|---|
2008-09 | 11,094 |
2009-10 | 12,691 |
2010-11 | 13,018 |
2011-12 | 11,613 |
2012-13 | 9,381 |
The CPS definition of child abuse covers any case where the victim was under 18 years of age at the time of the offence and allegations or crimes perpetrated by both adults and offenders aged under 18.
The correct answer should have been:
The Solicitor-General
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) does not maintain a central record of the number of referrals made to the CPS by the police for allegations of child sexual offences. The CPS does identify, by way of a monitoring flag, the number of pre-charge decisions made against suspects alleged to have been involved in the abuse of children. The following table sets out the number of such decisions in each of the last five years:
Pre-Charge Decisions | |
|---|---|
2008-09 | 11,094 |
2009-10 | 12,691 |
2010-11 | 13,018 |
2011-12 | 11,613 |
2012-13 | 9,381 |
The CPS definition of child abuse covers any case where the victim was under 18 years of age at the time of the offence and allegations or crimes perpetrated by both adults and offenders aged under 18.
Topical Questions
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
T3. The modern scourge of human trafficking is still with us. What action is my right hon. Friend taking to bring perpetrators to justice and to compensate the victims?
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)
My hon. Friend will know that the Home Secretary will shortly be publishing a modern slavery Bill that will deal with many of the issues that he rightly raises. Since July 2011, every trafficking victim has received Government funding, via the Salvation Army. The figures last year were about £3 million, with about 928 victims having received this vital support over the past year.
[Official Report, 12 November 2013, Vol. 570, c. 798.]
Letter of correction from Damian Green:
An error has been identified in the answer given to the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman).
The correct answer should have been:
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)
My hon. Friend will know that the Home Secretary will shortly be publishing a modern slavery Bill that will deal with many of the issues that he rightly raises. Since July 2011, every trafficking victim has received Government funding, via the Salvation Army. The figures last year were about £3 million, with about 928 victims having received this vital support since the start of the contract in July 2011 by June 2013.
Petitions
Proposed closure of Skerton Community High School (Lancaster)
The Save Coniston GP Surgery Campaign
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Pharmacies and the NHS
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
Dr McCrea, it is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship in my first Adjournment debate. It is also a great pleasure to address the assembled hon. Members—this is a good turnout for a 9.30 am sitting on a Wednesday—and especially the Minister, not only because he is an excellent Health Minister, but because he is my constituency neighbour in Ipswich and will recognise the local issues that I shall mention.
This debate came out of a discussion that I first had with Miss Michelle Claridge, a pharmacist in my constituency; I admit that my knowledge of pharmacies and pharmaceutical services was close to zero before that. As with so many incidents in our lives as Members of Parliament, I learned something immediately from talking to a constituent who brought a new experience—a new query—to my attention. She explained something that I had not appreciated. Perhaps you know, Dr McCrea, because you are no doubt a far more experienced MP than I, that a pharmacy’s appearing on a street, especially a new one, is not the work of a simple entrepreneurial decision. It is a minor miracle, and I will explain why.
As the Minister knows, in the centre of Ipswich there is a new development on the waterfront, encompassing several thousand new apartments and a few houses. This new community is demanding new pharmacy services. Michelle Claridge, an entrepreneur, says, “I would like to set up a pharmacy in this area, to service the new community.” But it is not that simple. People cannot just get a retail unit for which they have planning permission and start a pharmacy; it does not work like that. The system is arranged by the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee. Hon. Members will understand that, from this moment, we will begin speaking as if we were in East Germany. It will be a time warp.
We start with the PSNC. People have to apply to be on the pharmaceutical list, which is now run by the NHS England area team—when Miss Claridge applied, it was run by the primary care trust—which manages it in consultation with the health and wellbeing board for the area and determines whether there is a need for a pharmacy in an area. It draws a circle around the existing pharmacies and says, “Is there a particular need, for this population in this area?”
When Miss Claridge started, the PSNC said that there was not a need because its map did not show the several thousand new apartments and houses on the waterfront area. Even a simple consultation with the Google maps travel distance calculator could have shown that most of its calculations about walking time were defective. The first problem is that the system starts with a group of no doubt well meaning and intelligent bureaucrats having to work out whether there is a need for a pharmacy in an area.
Once people decide that they want to set up a pharmacy, they have to apply to NHS England with 21 different forms, the shortest—section 21—being five sides long and the longest being 13 sides long. In total, they have to submit about 200 sides of application forms just to say, “I think there is a need in this area for this new pharmaceutical practice.”
After that, the application can either be accepted or rejected. If it is accepted, people can go ahead and if it is rejected they can appeal, via the local pharmaceutical committee, to which other local pharmacies can also make applications, perhaps saying, “This pharmacy is coming into my patch. It is far too close.” They can make whatever objection they feel is necessary.
The system is already completely regulated from the centre. It is a state-controlled system—contracted out to pharmacists, who are working in it—even at the geographical level, before we get on to buying and selling drugs. I do not intend to offer any radical solutions. I just want to open up the matter as a Member of Parliament. I want to explain my experiences in trying to deal with this system and talk about what I have found out, as a layman with none of the medical expertise of the Minister or hon. Members in this Chamber who are members of all-party groups. I want to explain what I saw as I examined this system.
I turned over a stone and found a lot of interesting bodies lying underneath. There are serious questions about the state’s ability to buy medicines. This is not a small bill. We spend £12 billion a year on drugs, via the NHS—a huge amount. The whole thing, from beginning to end, is run by a state bureaucracy, which, in its scale, complication and anticipation of market forces, would make the North Korean Government proud.
How do we comprehend this extraordinary system and what are the problems in it? First, I have been helped very much today by NHS Southwark clinical commissioning group—in London, I live in Southwark—which posted a useful piece of information through my door yesterday. It contains a nice map showing all the general practitioner practices and mentions lots of interesting things about what it wants to do, all of them worthy. In the middle, under a heading, “Our Vision”, it states:
“Our aim is simple—we want to work with the hospitals, community teams and GPs who provide care locally to make sure that the people of Southwark receive the best care possible and live longer, healthier, happy lives.
We will work to make sure that all Southwark residents receive high-quality, safe and accessible health services and that, over time, we narrow the gap in life expectancy between the richest and poorest people.”
All good stuff, but hon. Members will notice that one significant service provider is omitted: the pharmacist, which does not even bear a mention in this list of different health providers for NHS Southwark.
I understand that this is a common problem throughout the country. Indeed, only 10% of clinical commissioning groups have a contracting relationship for additional services with pharmacies. That is unusual in the European context. As is so often the case in health care provision, this country is somewhat behind our European neighbours.
Highly qualified people are centred where they can serve local populations, yet in so many cases they cannot offer the kind of medical services that they could offer if they were in France, Germany or the Netherlands, or some more enlightened parts of this country. Pharmacists could offer such services easily and relieve pressure on general practitioners and hospitals. The scale of what they could do is significant. Why can they not offer basic diabetic treatment or flu jabs? One could—I am sure not you, Dr McCrea—go to the pharmacist for emergency contraception, but not for various other treatments that they could offer, depending on the area.
Michelle Claridge has experienced this situation. She said, “I want to set up GP provision in this new community, linked to my pharmacy.” That is sensible, but—oh, no—people cannot just hire a locum in a pharmacy, providing a medical and pharmaceutical service to a new community, because there would be a series of new arrangements and contracts to go through with the NHS area team to allow that to be done. Therein lies another problem. The contracting relationship between the two is so complicated and separate that the area for innovation in what is not really a market at all is limited. That seems to me a great sadness and a missed opportunity, and I am sure the Minister will agree. So how do we loosen things up? I will address that in a second, because we first need to examine how pharmacists sell drugs and purchase them from the various wholesalers who sell the drugs on behalf of pharmaceutical companies.
There are essentially three categories of drugs. First, there are the so-called “special drugs”—not the special drugs that you might be aware of in Northern Ireland or in the rest of the country, Dr McCrea, but special drugs as defined by the NHS. Those drugs are outside the normal regulatory regime. They are called unregulated but, of course, this being the NHS, they are regulated.
Secondly, there are the regulated drugs—the vast majority. They are drugs that are within patent and a few other sectors. Finally, there are the category M drugs, which have come off patent. The NHS tries to derive benefits from their coming off patent by ensuring that there is not excessive profiteering in the sector. I hope I have explained that properly. No doubt I am making a series of solecisms, but I hope Members will excuse me.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate. He mentions special drugs, which are addressed in the research papers that we have received. I am sure he agrees that it is a scandal that the suppliers of those drugs issue invoices of, for example, £600, as it says here, when the actual cost of the drugs is £300. The NHS refunds the £600, and the pharmacy or the supplier pockets the other £300. Multiply that by the billions of pounds out there in the supply chain, and it is a scandal. Something must be done.
Ben Gummer
I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. I will address that point.
There are three separate groups that each present different and particular problems. The scandal to which the hon. Gentleman alludes, which was uncovered recently by an excellent piece of journalism in The Daily Telegraph, shows how the NHS, customers and taxpayers have been ripped off by the drug companies that are coming in and double invoicing—they are issuing credit notes to pharmacists but invoicing full amounts to the NHS. That situation is outrageous, but it is inevitable when the market is so complicated and lacking in transparency. That is the first of several problems with special drugs.
Category M drugs are incredibly complicated. In the parallel trading of pharmaceuticals across the European Union—just to take one issue—it was often beneficial to import drugs from Greece or southern Europe to the UK because of the price differences between the pound and the euro. The reverse is now true, which means that there is sometimes a shortage of supply in the United Kingdom.
The situation is addressed by a quota system imposed by the pharmaceutical companies, which inevitably causes difficulties for pharmacists because sometimes five people, rather than three, want a particular drug one week. At that point, the pharmacist rings up the wholesaler and says, “I need two more prescriptions.” The wholesaler will then say, “Actually, I don’t have them.” The pharmacist will then have to phone the supplier to ask for two prescriptions, and if the pharmacist cannot get the prescriptions from the supplier, they have to go into the secondary market to buy from another pharmacist who is keeping the prescriptions in stock. The other pharmacist, completely understandably, takes a margin on selling the drug to the pharmacist who requires the prescription.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
My hon. Friend might be aware that I am vice-chairman of the all-party group on pharmacy. The right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and I considered the issue about 18 months ago, and we produced a report. Unfortunately, the Department of Health does not seem to have taken an awful lot of action and has rather pushed the report into the bottom drawer. Perhaps my hon. Friend might be willing to meet the chairman of the all-party group and me so that we can share our report.
Ben Gummer
My hon. Friend wrote and published his report before the Minister was appointed to his position, so I am sure my hon. Friend is calling on new ears and eyes that are able to consider the problem afresh.
Another problem is that pharmacists are completely at the mercy of the demographic that they happen to serve. The averaging of pricing operated by the PSNC means that if pharmacists happen to be selling a particular pharmaceutical in their area because of a high incidence of diabetes and are making a loss, and if they are not selling many drugs on which they might otherwise make a profit that allowed them to break even or make a small margin, they are immediately disadvantaged—just because of their geography.
If, however, a pharmacist happens to be in another location with a low incidence of diabetes but a high incidence of another condition that requires a high-margin drug, the pharmacist will do very well—not because of business acumen, not because they are running a particularly good service, not because they are friendly to customers, who want to come to see them, but just because of where they happen to be and the health indicators of their particular area. That cannot be right.
The third problem with the regulated market is that, because of the price changes of particular pharmaceuticals that happen every day and every week, it is impossible for businesses to plan, as they are uncertain of their future margins.
Those are all classic problems of trying to regulate a market. It would be good for the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), to take note of what happens when people try to regulate a market to the degree that his party—not him, I am sure; he is one of the more sensible members of his party—wishes to on energy prices. Such regulation results in inflated prices across the spectrum, as has happened in many instances in the drugs market in the United Kingdom. Good customer service is not incentivised, and good pharmacists are crying out to be rewarded for quality. Furthermore, innovation and supply are restricted.
I could go into those problems in far greater detail across the sector. The problems frustrate pharmacists and, no doubt, Ministers, who ultimately have to write the cheque on behalf of the taxpayer.
The third area I will address before I give others an opportunity to contribute is the essential problem at the heart of the debate. Of course it is understandable that we have ended up with a regulated system, because there is only one customer for most drugs. Indeed, if I understand things correctly, 80% of prescription drugs are bought by the NHS on behalf of people who are entitled to free prescriptions. Because of the way in which we have set up our health service in this country, it is impossible to extract the kind of value from the big pharmaceutical companies that other countries are able to extract, as there is only one purchaser. I do not know why in this country we have not got to a position of questioning the business motives and ethics of big pharmaceutical companies, as the United States has for many years.
I should qualify all that by saying that, of course, within the pharmaceutical sector there are the most fantastic companies that are innovating, contributing upwards of £12 billion a year to the UK economy and employing thousands of brilliant people across the country. We should be proud of those companies, but it is surprising that we have such an unquestioning attitude to those enormous interests, which have a relationship with the NHS and general practitioners that could be generously described as corporatist. That is unhealthy in driving innovation, in encouraging responsibility and, most importantly, in ensuring transparency. That is precisely why we get scandals such as the one raised by the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson). If there is an opaque market, frauds will be committed against the interests of the taxpayer.
I have, I hope, opened up the debate a little so that we can discuss some of the issues. I do not have any prescriptions for how we might deal with them, other than the general principle, which I hope the Opposition will agree with, that liberalisation is generally a good thing. If we deregulate this market—not the quality of the people dispensing pharmaceuticals, but the commercial side of the market—to allow pharmacists to offer more services more innovatively and more cheaply, and if we encourage competition in NHS purchasing and price-setting, we will do something on behalf of taxpayers and patients. I have put forward a group of questions to open up the debate, and I am grateful for the contributions that will follow mine.
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) on applying for and securing the debate at this opportune time. He will know that the change from primary care trusts to clinical commissioning groups means that there is indeed scrutiny in local communities of the worth of local pharmacists and of what they have been doing over many years.
I should put it on record that I chair the all-party group on pharmacy. The group receives financial support from the Company Chemists Association, the National Pharmacy Association, the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee and the Royal Pharmaceutical Society. The lobbyists Luther Pendragon provide the group with administrative assistance. I have no personal interest in the group, other than chairing it, but I thought I should put those details on record.
Community pharmacy sits at the heart of our communities, and pharmacists are trusted, professional and competent partners in supporting individual, family and community health. An estimated 1.6 million people visit a pharmacy each day, of whom 1.2 million do so for health reasons, making pharmacists the most accessible health care professionals.
I was not really surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say that pharmacists were not mentioned in the information he got from Southwark. Pharmacists tend to be a little add-on, and we had an example last week, with the publication of the report on A and E, which said that pharmacists might be able to help with some of the issues it raised.
Like GPs, dentists and optometrists, community pharmacies are private organisations contracted to provide NHS services to the public on behalf of NHS England. However, that is not really understood by the public. A 2011 survey by Pharmacy Voice found that 88% of people regarded GP practices as public bodies, when the vast majority are, of course, private businesses. However, only 32% of people regarded pharmacies as public bodies, which is extraordinary, given their impact on our communities.
More than 90% of the average community pharmacist’s turnover comes from the NHS. That is a higher percentage than for GPs in some parts of the country, and even some NHS hospitals do not get that much of their income from the NHS. Pharmacies often provide advice to patients free of charge, with one in seven community pharmacy consultations not resulting in a sale.
The hon. Gentleman said that we do not use pharmacies in the way people do abroad. Many years ago, when my children were quite young, and we were on holiday in places such as Spain or Portugal, the pharmacist was the first health professional people were asked to go to but, sadly, that is not the case in this country. The pharmacist was there with powers to help.
Community pharmacists are the face of the NHS in communities and on the high street, having more engagement with the public than other health care professionals. Some 99% of the population, including even those living in the most deprived areas, can get to a pharmacy by car within 20 minutes, and 96% can get to one by walking or by public transport. Pharmacists can reduce A and E waiting times by dealing with people with common conditions. The hon. Member for Plymouth—
Mr Barron
I am sure Hansard will put that right anyway—I could have said “somewhere in the south”. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the all-party group, and we had a session on pharmacies easing the burden of emergency care. We had several witnesses, one of whom—Paula Wilkinson—was the chief pharmacist at Mid Essex Clinical Commissioning Group. She showed us a publication that the CCG was sending round mid-Essex called “Why wait to see your doctor or nurse? See your pharmacist first!” It is part of the health care on the high street initiative that the CCG is running, and she focused the majority of her comments on that initiative, which she said nudged—that is very much Government-speak—people towards using the pharmacy first. Like another witness, she focused on the expanded role that pharmacies could play in serving patients with minor ailments.
Paula said—this is quite interesting, and I would be interested in the Minister’s comments—that for people on low incomes, prescriptions often provided a way of gaining free access to medicines that are otherwise available over the counter without a prescription. She said that meant that patients on low incomes were perversely incentivised to attend their GP or an A and E service to get prescriptions. She believed consideration should be given to providing some free medicines without prescription to those on low incomes. Clearly, if a patient has been on a medicine for a long time, that would not be that challenging, and a professional such as a pharmacist could extend the period without having to go through any rigmarole and clogging up the rest of the system.
The A and E report that came out last week showed that 40% of people who attend A and E have nothing whatever done to them, which is an extraordinary statistic. Indeed, 50% of people who are blue-lighted—an ambulance or paramedic goes out to them—are not admitted to hospital. We need to look at certain issues in primary care services and, to some extent, in the acute sector if we are to deal with such people.
Community pharmacy provides a common ailments service—we call it a minor ailments service in Rotherham —in 10% of England, and people are encouraged to go to the community pharmacy as part of that. A nationally commissioned service would reduce pressure on GP surgeries and, subsequently, on A and E. Recent reports suggest that 56 million to 57 million visits a year could be managed by pharmacists, freeing up GPs to manage more complex cases, and I agree.
Pharmacists support people with long-term conditions to manage their symptoms, improving access to care for people in the most deprived areas and increasing capacity to treat patients out of hours and in the community. The Minister will be well aware of this, but about 75% of NHS expenditure goes on people with long-term conditions. This winter, quite a lot of them are likely to end up going to A and E and clogging up the system because they have, for whatever reason—they may be forgetful as a result of other problems, such as dementia—not adhered to their drugs regime at home. Managing such people in the community using professionals such as GPs, nurses and pharmacists is a better way of caring for such people. We have few systems to deal with these things, although the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) will no doubt tell us what is going on in his constituency with healthy living pharmacies, so I will not go into that. These are, however, major issues, and the strengths of pharmacists should be used a bit more.
I mentioned the question of medicines adherence. Under the present general pharmacy contract, it is pharmacists’ duty—and they are paid for this—to take in unused medicines. It is extraordinary that every year medicines costing hundreds of millions of pounds are prescribed and then are unused, for whatever reason. It is a difficult situation. The 2010 report by the York health economics consortium and the school of pharmacy at the university of London suggested that up to £500 million could be generated in England in just five therapeutic areas—asthma, diabetes, raised blood pressure, vascular disease and the care of people with schizophrenia—if medicines were used optimally. Those are all long-term conditions on which taxpayers’ money is spent. The report rightly said that sub-optimal use of medicines and waste undermine the £12 billion investment in medicines by the NHS.
Pharmacists do quite a lot of work which, although it is contracted to the NHS, is not always laid out nationally or used by local health partnerships. The hon. Member for Ipswich pointed out that pharmacists were not included in the publication that he cited. A medicines use review is a review of a patient’s medicines—prescribed and non-prescribed—to promote adherence and to support the optimal use of medicines; 2.8 million MURs were provided by community pharmacies in England in 2012-13. Since 2011, pharmacies have offered a new medicine service to provide additional support to patients who are starting to take certain medicines for long-term conditions. An evaluation of the effectiveness of the NMS is due soon, and more than 640,000 people starting to take new medicines have benefited. That is adherence —making sure that people do as their prescription sets out.
The York and London review, which is entitled “Evaluation of the Scale, Causes and Costs of Waste Medicines”, goes into the question in great depth, and clearly the problem will never be eliminated altogether. Nevertheless it is clear that in this country people sit and write out prescriptions and people take them away and effectively put them on the shelf. The patient might use the medicine for a couple of days. Perhaps they do not like the side-effects, and indeed that is unavoidable on occasion. However, some medicines are stored in bathroom cabinets, and when they are emptied the medicines are taken back to the pharmacist or thrown away, which costs the nation hundreds of millions of pounds. We must question whether some of those medicines, given that they are not used, should be prescribed in the first place. However, that is a wider issue for health professionals, not me.
More than 57 million GP consultations a year involve minor ailments. If we rolled out the scheme that currently covers about 10% of England, we could greatly reduce pressure on those services, and GPs could get on with more important things. The patients could be moved to pharmacies, and more than £812 million of GP capacity could be freed for other things.
In 2009-10, 140,000 people chose their community pharmacy to set a quit date and 62,000 had successfully quit smoking by the fourth week, which was a 13% increase on the previous year. Pharmacists give support in a wide variety of public health roles, including flu vaccinations, international normalised ratio-testing clinics—monitoring and adjusting the dose of the blood-thinning medicine warfarin—and asthma clinics.
There has been much debate in Parliament about changes in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. The Minister was on the Committee that considered the measure. Two things were writ large in that Act. First, we have now put into statute the need to reduce health inequalities—but they are not reducing. Everyone is living longer, but in terms of social class things are still going downwards. Pharmacists could work on reducing health inequalities in areas where there is known deprivation. That should be a major aim. Secondly, the Minister will remember the emphasis on population health. In view of the statistics that I have read out, I think pharmacy has a major role to play in improving population health.
Public health problems were very bad 150 years ago, and they involved the environment—bad housing, bad sanitation and bad water. The public health issues that this century will suffer from will be to do with individual lifestyles. I read out some statistics about smoking cessation and pharmacies, and I believe that community pharmacists are the gatekeepers to the national health service. Far more people visit them than any other part of the NHS and they have a major role to play. The sooner we alter the current mode of contact and move away from the situation where pharmacists get the bulk of their money just churning out prescriptions to one where they cover wider issues within communities and look after the health of the population, the better we shall be.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Dr McCrea. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) on securing the debate. I have tried on one or two occasions to get a debate on pharmacy, and he has beaten me to it and introduced the debate very successfully. No doubt he has more pull with the Speaker’s Office than I do. I thank the Minister for attending, too.
I got involved in the pharmacy story when in the 1990s resale price maintenance on non-prescription medicines became a big issue. The chief executive of Asda—I do not think that he was a Member at the time—was very keen to get rid of RPM on non-prescription medicines because he felt the market should be much more open. Quite a debate has taken place over the years on how to liberalise the pharmacy market in a big way.
At that time, community pharmacists were concerned about whether their trade would be reduced and the effect on their livelihoods. We must recognise that community pharmacies play a significant role in the high street economy. People are regularly drawn into town and city centres to spend money and visit the community pharmacy at the same time. I have followed developments with interest. I congratulate and support pharmacists, who do an incredible job. As the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) pointed out, they are the first point of contact for people who need help.
I understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich about the lack of liberalisation in the market and the need for transparency. I am always one for a lot of transparency—more sunlight normally produces it. During the 1980s and 1990s, the Conservative Government made sure that town centre retail developments and new supermarkets were assessed, to find out the implications for other supermarkets and food retailers. Regulation of town centres has been going on for a while. That was also to do with the sequential test.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
My hon. Friend reminds me that we often complain that our town centres are in decline; he may have given us the reason.
Oliver Colvile
I agree that supermarkets have had an impact, but my point is about trying to protect small businesses in town and city centres.
Steve Baker
That is not quite what I meant. I pointed out that our town centres have been regulated for a long time, and that they are now in decline. Perhaps we should liberalise more consistently, and should have done so for a long time.
Oliver Colvile
The bigger issue, frankly, is car parking in town centres. Outside town centres people do not pay charges for car parking, but they do in town centres: so where do they go? In my constituency, I suspect that they end up at the Marsh Mills Sainsbury’s or elsewhere.
Two other big issues affect the pharmacy profession, one of which is the criminalisation of dispensing errors. If pharmacists make a mistake, they can be prosecuted and potentially sent to prison, whereas GPs, for whom I have a great deal of time, do not suffer the same prospect. The Department of Health is looking at that, and I hope that it will come to a conclusion on how we can equalise the situation and ensure a more level playing field.
The other issue is the sharing of data between pharmacists and GPs. I raised the matter during a recent statement from the Secretary of State for Health on the whole business of how pharmacists could play a part in helping to relieve accident and emergency units. The Government are keen to ensure that more and better data sharing takes place. I have a slight concern in that my understanding is that the process would be run by the Department of Health, but I recently read in an article that the Department was suggesting that the responsibility would lie much more with the local commissioning boards. If the Minister can respond to that confusion, that will be helpful.
We need to ensure that pharmacies play a much better role. They need to be the first point of call for people seeking help from professionals, as that would help to relieve GPs. During the summer recess, I visited the Keyham healthy living pharmacy, which is a brilliant organisation in a deprived community. Life expectancy differs by 11 years between the suburbs of Plymouth and Devonport, which is where the Keyham pharmacy is located. The pharmacy offers not only flu vaccinations, but also smoking cessation services and other such things. It is a service that certainly needs to be available.
Finally, there is concern about how we can improve how people feel about pharmacies to ensure that they are used in a much better way. If pharmacies were used to deliver flu vaccinations, that would take some pressure off our accident and emergency units over the winter. We have discussed an important issue this morning, and I am delighted that you, Dr McCrea, have been in the Chair to ensure that we get some positive comments.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) on bringing this matter for our consideration today. Although I agree with him on many things, his football team, Ipswich Town, is playing my team, Leicester City, on Saturday, so our opinions will differ on that.
Jim Shannon
Well, I hope we won’t.
To return to the matter in hand, having run my own business, I can well understand the pressures on businesses—the need to make profit and to pay the bills at home. I can also understand the principle behind paying for what you get and that a good service needs to be paid for. At the same time, however, from what I have read in the media and the considerable background information to the debate today, the scandal of double-invoicing and cashback to the detriment of the NHS cannot ever be accepted.
I take my hat off to the whistleblowers who have highlighted the practice, which it is claimed has robbed the NHS of up to £120 million. The headlines are clear: “Pricing scandal sees NHS pay £89 for cod-liver oil capsules”; “Firms boast of profits on drugs that cost ‘pennies’”; “‘There’s a lot of flexibility over prices’”; “Pharmacies and suppliers accused of price rigging”, and last, but not least, “The NHS, the drug firms and the price racket”. All those headlines are cause for concern.
I have asked several questions of the Secretary of State regarding the provision of new cancer drugs, Alzheimer’s drugs or any number of other new drugs that are not accessible on the NHS. How do I tell my young constituent suffering from cancer that there is no funding for a drug that has been proven in other countries to help when she is reading about double-invoicing? Is the cost of her life so little for the House that we can allow the practice to continue? I have asked those questions of myself and my constituents ask me them, too.
I was angered when I read about £10,000 monthly kickbacks and other horror stories. It is clear that any agreement needs to stop that from being able to happen. I have the greatest respect for the Minister and I am sure he will hit on such issues in his response. If we need new legislation that enables the NHS to go deeper than merely checking invoices, so be it. It concerns me greatly to think of the number of families who could have received life-changing help this year with the money—our money, our constituents’ money—that has been lost to those who are working the system. That has to stop.
Many heads should hang in shame over how bills have been creatively put together by providers, but I cannot simply allow the Government not to understand that they need to do more.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most significant recent statements in the press was when a senior executive of one of the large companies said that it would be more than happy to agree to a 70% discount if that is what it took to get the contract? That is a damning indictment of the original price.
Jim Shannon
I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful contribution. The contributions from him, my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and others may focus the Minister’s attention.
On the availability of medicines, I have read that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has approved fewer than one in three medicines since 2005. A recent letter from nine major pharmaceutical companies to The Daily Telegraph started with something that I agree with. I am sure that any Member and, more importantly, any doctor or care worker in the NHS, will also agree with it:
“Medicines should not just be seen as a cost.”
They should first and foremost be about healing and curing illnesses. The letter continues:
“They are an investment and an essential part of improving patient outcomes. Yet…the proportion of medicines refused by NICE is only increasing.”
That is a concern for me, too. Jonathan Emms, UK managing director at Pfizer, has said:
“Right now NICE is saying ‘no’ too often. It is blocking many innovative new medicines from reaching the UK patients who need them most, medicines that are often readily available in Europe.”
Will the Minister say what contact he has had with NICE about not making available in the UK drugs that are available in other parts of Europe?
Although it is hoped that the agreed deal will save the NHS £1 billion over two years, it is essential that that saving goes into making more drugs available for the healing of those who need them and not simply the healing of the deficit. Will the Minister assure me and the House that the savings made will go into the provision in the UK of drugs that have been widely tested and that are widely available in Europe?
Oliver Colvile
Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that drugs and medicines can be dangerous if they get into the wrong hands? Pharmacies also have to face people using the internet to acquire drugs, which is an option that does not carry the same regulation that we expect in the domestic market.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. It is something that many of us have highlighted and I know that the Minister has spoken about it in the past. The availability of drugs on the internet is an anomaly in the system, and perhaps the Minister can give us an indication of how best to deal with it.
Back in April, we were told that the number of cancer drugs on the approved list was to be halved. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that the savings will be used to increase the amount of drugs that might save lives and give a better quality of life?
I read the story of a mother with terminal cancer, who was forced to fund herself a drug that she believed would give her extra time with her young children, after being refused by a special Government fund. I find such stories incredible, hearing about the real heartache and issues that impact on family lives, and yet we—as collective representatives—are unable to help and assist as we should. In America, Obama is trying to bring in a health care system similar to ours. It is referred to as Obamacare—people say that it will make or break him, and it probably will. We, however, seem to be turning ourselves into an American system, whereby we have to fundraise to get treatment. That is certainly not what my constituents or I pay our taxes for, and I am sure that others agree with me.
I want to make a quick comment about Northern Ireland, where our Health Minister abolished prescription charges. That was done on the understanding that cheap generic drugs were not prescribed. Health is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, and our Minister made a decision, which I support entirely. Will this Minister—I ask this with respect—liaise with the Northern Ireland Minister, Edwin Poots, to ascertain how the scheme is working and how we have been able to stick within our budget in Northern Ireland on prescription drugs?
The right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) made a valuable contribution today. One of the things that he referred to was the drugs that people have and do not use; they sit until they go out of date and are then dumped. In Northern Ireland, the Minister, the GP surgeries and so on have taken steps to ensure that the prescription of drugs is better controlled. Sometimes, people might run out of drugs, rather than having extra in the cupboard, but such steps help and take away wastage in the system. The right hon. Gentleman made that clear in his contribution.
Over the years in Northern Ireland, through the Minister and in co-operation with the pharmacies, we have also tried to reduce the number of people attending accident and emergency. If people have a minor ailment, they should go to their pharmacist or chemist; he or she will be able to give some direction on what needs to be done. There are ways and means of good practice, to which I have referred on many occasions. I say what we do in Northern Ireland with humility, but we actually do some things very well. If such things are done well, they can be a marker for elsewhere.
Time is flying past, but changes clearly need to be made soon. Yes, pharmaceutical companies and pharmacies need to make a profit, but that must be done in the right way; we need legislation in place to ensure that that is done in such a way. Yes, NICE must protect people from drugs that promise all, but deliver nothing, and yet that cannot be used to count pennies and to justify saying no to drugs that will make a difference.
Finally, yes, Government must make savings, but those cannot be taken from the most vulnerable by denying them treatment; any savings should be used for new drugs, to give people a better chance of life, for the sake of our constituents in the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are not talking simply about numbers on a hospital list—the changes need to be made, and made soon.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) on provoking a stimulating debate, and one in which I have learned a great deal. In particular, he emphasised the local impact that pharmacies can have, while the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) clearly explained some of the opportunities that can be seized through pharmacies.
In Lane End in my constituency, a pharmacy opened alongside a dispensing GP practice, but if I remember the circumstances correctly, the practice was forbidden from serving local people; we had an absurd situation in which the purpose of the regulation made my constituents’ lives less convenient and less easy, in the interests of somehow distributing profit fairly. The debate has brought in some of the wider aspects for society and some of the things that a heavily regulatory state has messed up.
The purpose of prices, profit and loss in a market society is to guide individuals and voluntary associations into best serving society. If pharmacists wish to open a pharmacy, they should simply be able to do so, if they can find a place to do it, can do so within the law and are selling lawful products. They should be able to get on with it and serve whomever comes through the door. Instead, we have the situation described by my hon. Friend—people have to fill in a 200-page application form and might subsequently find themselves subject to particular restrictions on whom they may or may not supply.
One of the issues with a market system is that business men are profit-maximising, which is both a problem and a benefit. The problem is that business men do not like competition much, because that is what drives down prices and therefore profit. That is the crux of the matter. The purpose of the Government is not to entrench in law and regulation the tendency of business men to seek rent—excess income through capturing the state—but that is just what is happening when competition is inhibited by restrictions placed on a dispensing practice simply because a neighbour has opened a pharmacy. Certainly, on the siting of pharmacies, the Minister should seek to abolish rules and controls wherever he can, because they are getting in the way.
Ben Gummer
In my address, I omitted to mention the whole range of practice payments paid to pharmacists simply for, in effect, being open. The problem is that the opening of a new pharmacy creates a liability for the NHS to pay those practice payments, no matter who does or does not go through its doors. That shows the rather extraordinary situation that we have ended up with in respect of how pharmacies are remunerated.
Steve Baker
My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I am extremely grateful to him for bringing that up. We pretend that we live in a capitalist society—I have said this in the House before—but if our system is capitalism, I am not a capitalist. We have an absurd hybrid system, in which the state constantly intervenes in order to give people rents. It is peculiar that we call it a free market society.
The purpose of our all being here, of course, is to improve our constituents’ lives. When I say such things, my intention is to ensure that my constituents—all our constituents—have better access to pharmacies. In the House, we have a real consensus about an increase in the services offered by pharmacists being of benefit to all our constituents. What I want is for the Government to get out of the way, not to use taxpayers’ money to provide the payments that my hon. Friend mentioned and to allow pharmacists to get on and best serve the public in a way that is in the public’s best interests—a way that can be discovered only through experimentation and entrepreneurship.
On pricing, I want to make the point that in this country we are not good at haggling. We should haggle over prices and drive them down. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about the scandal of some simple and inexpensive medicines that ought to cost pennies, but cost very much more. What I see at work there could be something that I witnessed when I was a contractor working with Government: Departments are not good at driving down prices. They tend to accept the price that they are given—“Oh, that must be the market price.” No—they should set the market price by demanding that they are charged less and, if suppliers do not provide the goods at a lower price, they should go elsewhere.
That brings me to generics and parallel imports, a subject touched on earlier. We ought to be making sure that the big pharmaceutical firms do not hold the NHS over a barrel. I have heard some of their arguments, and of course producing a new drug is an expensive business, but we should not be held over a barrel. In a market society, people should be held to account to drive down costs and drive up quality.
Johnson & Johnson, based in my constituency, has a wonderful credo, which was written when the basis of a free society was under threat in an earlier time. That credo sets out the principles on which the industry should be founded, and one such should be: no legal privileges, wherever possible.
Oliver Colvile
During the all-party group inquiry, we looked at that issue. One suggestion for easy identification of who was exporting and importing pharmaceutical products in this country was to look at VAT returns—when I ran a small business and was VAT registered, I had to fill in a piece of paper that recorded what level of EU trade I had ended up doing. I approached the Treasury on the matter, but it was not willing to participate and help, but that seems to me to be a way in which we could identify who the offenders are. We had some difficulty in identifying the offenders.
Steve Baker
My hon. Friend has identified what might be a missed opportunity because an enormous effort is going into preventing that fraud. With the opportunities that electronic communication offers today, it should be possible to use some of that information in other contexts. With that in mind, I will turn to the internet.
Clearly, everyone wants to ensure that prescribing takes place properly, but when people have been prescribed medicines it should be possible for them to buy over the internet in appropriate circumstances. I am particularly aware that homeopaths have had great difficulty with the internet because of the need for people to present physically to buy a medicine.
We cannot have it both ways on homeopathy—either the medicines are relatively harmless and can be treated with scorn by the medical profession, in which case they should be freely available on the internet, or they are dangerous and should be tightly regulated. Homeopaths’ experience suggests that people can take responsibility for themselves and buy products on the internet.
Ben Gummer
My hon. Friend touches on an interesting issue. Given the fact that the Government are going to great lengths to try to get GPs to do more consultations on the internet and Skype—great news for many of my constituents, especially those in busy jobs with difficult hours—it seems obvious to extend such innovation to the dispensing of pharmaceuticals.
Steve Baker
My hon. Friend is right. In the 21st century, we should be waking up to the opportunities to use technology to drive down costs and drive up service. People are so busy today, so why can they not have consultations in their offices with Skype, and why can pharmacists not prescribe to offices with Skype? The solution to these problems is for the Government to abolish whatever rules and controls they can and wherever they can, and to liberalise when abolition is not possible.
Mr Barron
The majority of patented goods that the national health service buys are a recognition not just of cost, but of the pharmaceutical industry’s worth to the British economy—including exports, manufacturing base and so on. We export around £7 billion of pharmaceutical goods a year. Might a free market endanger that?
Steve Baker
We may be in danger of straying into philosophically deep water about what free markets do and do not do. Clearly, because of the moral imperatives of health care, we cannot have an unimpeded market. We have made political decisions to ensure that no one goes without health care. That has consequences, and we should accept them.
The way to deploy scarce resources in the service of the public is to allow the price system, as well as profit and loss, to run as freely as possible. When we talk about something’s worth, price is too often ascribed to things that are not subject to market transactions. Only through exchange can it be established how people value things. I do not want to go on for too long, so I will leave that to another debate, perhaps the one on the Budget.
I want to encourage the Government to liberalise and to look more closely at what can be done to enable pharmacists to set up wherever they need to in order to serve the public best.
Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) for bringing this debate to the whole of Parliament today—we often forget that Westminster Hall is Parliament. Issues of the utmost importance have been raised regarding pharmacies and the pharmaceutical industry, and shocking allegations have been made. The House of Commons has a duty to learn the facts and to act accordingly, whether by expanding the role of the pharmaceutical industry and pharmacies or by remedying any wrongdoing in existing price structures.
The hon. Gentleman is right to extol the virtues of community pharmacies for many reasons and I will touch on them in due course. He is right to open up an extremely broad debate, and we have touched on its potential breadth. We need to explore the scandal of what The Daily Telegraph called the drug price racket. I can understand a patient missing an appointment which regrettably wastes the time of clinicians and costs the NHS money. I can understand the worried well occupying GPs’ time when they have no real need to do so. I can understand patients not taking a full course of antibiotics or keeping the medicine cabinet at home filled with prescribed drugs for which they have no real need. All those behaviours cost the NHS money, but individuals will not be aware of the costs they are incurring for the NHS, nor do they intend to divert scarce resources. There is no deliberate disregard for the NHS, for other patients, or for the taxpayer in these instances, but clearly more work needs to be done to reduce these costs.
Let us consider one of the central allegations before us today—the drug price racket. Some private interests—pharmaceutical companies and pharmacies—are knowingly and deliberately committing fraud. We live in a world that is very different from the pre-crisis world that existed before the global economic crash. We live in an era that is set to be defined by austerity, and public finances are still in a parlous state. In society at large, not just in Parliament and across the political spectrum, but at the school gate, in the high street, and in the boardroom, it is understood that public money is valuable and scarce, and that it should be spent wisely and prudently.
Drug price fraud is happening in our most valued public service at a time of economic crisis, and it has occurred by design and not accident. Those responsible are not simply undertaking a grotesque financial deceit of patients and taxpayers, but are probably depriving the NHS of resources that could and should be used for patient care. To take the point to its logical conclusion, these parties have fraudulently diverted from the NHS resources that could have saved lives.
A few years ago, the Prime Minister referred to lobbying as
“the next big scandal waiting to happen”.
We now know that he was wrong. Shamefully, in recent months and again today, we may have unearthed the next big scandal that the Prime Minister warned of. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), the shadow Attorney-General, wrote to the Serious Fraud Office about the drug price racket in July:
“You will be aware that the Telegraph has brought to light extremely serious allegations that pharmaceutical companies in collusion with chemists have been rigging the market in prescription drugs that are generally not covered by NHS price regulations…If the allegations are substantiated it will mean that the NHS has been systematically overcharged hundreds of millions of pounds. This would represent a colossal fraud on the taxpayer. An offence of that magnitude would surely warrant the attention of the Serious Fraud Office and not just an internal inquiry of the counter-fraud department of the NHS. I would be grateful if you could let me know what steps, if any, the SFO intends to take on what appears to be prima facie evidence of conspiracy to defraud.”
David Green, CB QC, of the Serious Fraud Office responded on July 19 and concluded:
“The SFO are working closely with NHS Protect and the allegations that have been made are the subject of careful consideration. If, having considered the available information, evidence of fraud is identified, further consideration will be given as to which agency is the most appropriate to investigate these matters.”
My hon. Friend has received no other communications from the Serious Fraud Office in the intervening period, and I have today written to Mr Green asking what progress the SFO has made with its considerations. I have also written to the Chairs of the Select Committee on Health and of the Public Accounts Committee to alert them to these issues with a view to their undertaking their own inquiries.
The Daily Telegraph should be congratulated on its investigative journalism. There is absolute consent on that. It has provided a great service to the public and the NHS. We should be cognisant of the awful parallel that it rightly exposed: the parliamentary expenses scandal. That was another truly remarkable service entirely within the public interest. It is an apt comparison. The abuse of public money represented by the parliamentary expenses scandal resulted in the jailing of Members of Parliament and of peers. Shocking as that was to the public and seismic as it was to the political establishment, the fraud and false accounting pales into insignificance in monetary terms compared with the sheer scale of the embezzlement that is now being alleged in the drug price racket.
I repeat that this is not just a get-rich-quick caper, but the knowing and deliberate abuse of public money that should have been used to save lives. That is the scale of the allegations. We need the pharmaceutical industry, and we need pharmacies and pharmacists. We need the pharmaceutical industry to help to deliver our national life sciences strategy. We need it to help to underpin academia so that we can continue to break new ground in medicine research and to develop new treatments, new drugs and new medicines. We need to recognise and reward the public good that that represents.
We need to expand the role of community pharmacies if we are better to deliver a more integrated, efficient and effective health care system. We need to make better use of the 1.6 million interactions that will take place today between the population in England alone and pharmacies. The average person visits the pharmacist 14 times a year—more than once a month—and we need to capture better and utilise those interactions for improved individual and public health. Of that, there is absolutely no doubt.
However, for us to do any of that, we need to be able to trust the motives and actions of all the groups involved. Let me say to the pharmacists and pharmaceutical companies that are doing no wrong—clearly, that is the overwhelming majority—that I regret the distress that this issue will inevitably cause them, but it is essential for all of us involved with the sector to leave no stone unturned in establishing the facts, if we are to be able to maintain the faith and trust of the public. I know that the Minister, for whom I have genuine respect, will be as appalled by the revelations as anybody else, and I hope that he will be able to answer the questions that I put to him today. If not, I would appreciate a written reply.
The Daily Telegraph describes the Government announcement of drug-pricing caps in 2011 as “a ‘hallelujah’ moment” that has led to significant fraud. Does the Minister consider that that is the case, and will he investigate why it is that those disposed to committing fraud are using the announcement as the basis on which they are able to defraud the NHS? On 20 July, the Secretary of State for Health told The Daily Telegraph that he had ordered an investigation into the allegations. Will the Minister tell us where those investigations are up to? What has been investigated? What is the scope of the investigation? When will the investigation be completed? The Minister will note that Serco has been made to repay £24 million to the Treasury for financial wrongdoing in the course of delivering public services. Will the Minister support repayments to the NHS if price fraud allegations are proven?
Finally, we all want to develop the role of community pharmacies. We all want to help our pharmaceutical industry to thrive and innovate, and we all have a duty to spend public money effectively, properly and honestly. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
We have had a wide-ranging debate today on issues such as the deregulation and regulation of pharmacies, the local provision of pharmaceutical services and the extension of the role of pharmacists and what they do in our communities. Importantly, we have also discussed pricing and behaviour that, if not fraudulent, is certainly very irregular on behalf of some pharmacists and drugs companies. I hope that I will have time to deal with all those issues, but I will write in more detail to any Member here today who feels that more points need to be answered.
Before I go any further, may I say that it is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea? We took part in many sittings together when the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was considered in Committee, and it is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), my constituency neighbour, on securing today’s debate. It is important to recognise that our NHS is not only about doctors and nurses, but about midwives, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, heath care assistants and all the other people who contribute to the health of the nation every day, including pharmacists, who play an increasingly important role in delivering high-quality local health care and who are embracing the enhanced role that they have been offered under the 2012 Act. It is right that we put on record our thanks for the work that pharmacists do every day.
The right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), in an excellent, considered speech, made some very good points. In particular, he said that community pharmacists are the face of our NHS in many communities. He is absolutely right in saying that because, particularly in more deprived areas of the country, pharmacists are often the first point of call for advice—whether on simple details about medications or for important primary health care advice. Pharmacists perform that role every day. We should be grateful to them for what they do, and I put on record my thanks for that work.
It is important to put on record that pharmacies are in robust health. Although we debate deregulation and difficulties, we know that there are more NHS community pharmacies than ever before—more than 11,400 in England—and they are offering health care, treatment and healthy lifestyle advice and support throughout the country. They dispensed more than 900 million prescription items last year, which is up 53% from 10 years ago, and about 2 million prescriptions are handed out every day by pharmacists. Therefore, we have an industry, as part of our NHS and in its commercial activities and other work, that is in robust health and is performing a valuable service for our NHS.
Of course, we could get into the issues that the right hon. Gentleman rightly raised on the appropriateness of prescribing medication. The chief medical officer talked in some detail in a report about the need for GPs to look sometimes at the appropriateness of the antibiotics that they prescribe and about how we need to look at antimicrobial resistance in this country. The right hon. Gentleman made his points very well, but I hope that he will forgive the fact that I shall not address them directly in today’s remarks. However, he was right to make them and the chief medical officer certainly agrees with him, as do I.
I shall deal with other points that have been made, but initially, I would like to address the important points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich. We rightly value the innovation and the opportunities that pharmacists have to innovate and support their local communities in different ways. Because they are centred in the community, only pharmacists are able to use such methods. I had the pleasure of attending the annual pharmacy awards and looking at some of those ways. I saw pharmacies, embedded in local communities, making a real difference in providing health and lifestyle advice and improving the quality of care available to local patients.
At the same time, although we want to encourage and support innovation—the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme, or the PPRS, was recently renegotiated and enhanced to give pharmacists the opportunity to innovate exactly as I have described—we also need to recognise that we have a publicly funded national health service, which is a point that has been made across the Chamber today, and we are very proud of it. It is free at the point of need, and it is important to ensure that the money that is given to the health service, whether to pharmacies or to other parts of the NHS, is properly spent, and there is also a role in ensuring that services are provided in a safe and effective way. I shall come on to some of those points later.
My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) has been a consistently strong advocate for the role of pharmacists, and he made his points very well today. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) also made a useful and powerful contribution, which was picked up by the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) a few moments ago, about the importance of ensuring that there is no fraud in the system and that pharmacists always behave appropriately. I am sure that the majority of the time pharmacists behave appropriately and make a very valuable contribution. When there may be fraudulent behaviour, it is right to pick up on that and investigate it. I will come back to that in a moment, because we all want to see high value for money from our NHS and to make sure that the money is spent on patients and not wasted. I think that that is something that we all agree with and believe in across the House.
I turn to the important issue of pricing. The vast majority of drugs that are prescribed are either covered by the PPRS or are generics, where competition helps to keep the price down. We recently introduced a price for common specialists, but a small number of prescriptions, as has been mentioned in the debate, fall outside the pricing mechanisms that are in place. We are working with the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee to find a better mechanism to encourage pharmacists to seek lower prices.
Where there may be cases of fraud, it is right that we investigate them, and they are investigated. NHS Protect exists to safeguard—to protect—against fraud in the NHS. That has been a consistent policy; it was followed by the previous Government, and it has been followed by the current Government. The reason why we need services such as NHS Protect is to ensure that if there is fraudulent practice—in this case, potentially in the behaviour of a small number of pharmacists in dealing with small, unique areas of pricing—it is investigated properly. I will ensure that either I or Earl Howe, who is the Minister responsible, writes to the hon. Member for Copeland to inform him of where we have got to with the investigation.
The other point, which was made by the hon. Member for Strangford and is very important, is that we want to ensure that money goes on patients. There is increasing demand for drugs. It is very good that the NHS is continually innovating and developing more treatments, better surgical techniques and improved drugs and mechanisms. Of course, when drugs are used in the NHS, they need to be evidence-based, but I hope that he will agree that it is good that we have set up the cancer drugs fund, which has helped to increase the speed at which people with cancer receive drugs. More than 30,000 people have benefited from the cancer drugs fund and received cancer drugs. We should all be pleased about that and proud of it.
Jim Shannon
I thank the Minister for that positive response. I outlined in my contribution a couple of examples of people who did not access the cancer drugs fund, but in my mind clearly should have qualified. Is he prepared to look at that issue to satisfy those people who need drugs urgently because of the time they have left on this earth?
Dr Poulter
On how drugs are accessed, one of the problems—this was why the cancer drugs fund was set up—was that some people, as the hon. Gentleman rightly outlined, had been receiving drugs in other countries for many years, but we in this country were a little slower to respond to some of those innovations. But of course we need to ensure that, whatever fund we set up for providing medications, those medications are shown to be effective and there is an evidence base for them. However we do things, there will always be new treatments on the horizon that we would like to get through to people more quickly, and we need to ensure that those treatments are always evidence-based. I think that we can be pleased that the cancer drugs fund has made a significant difference by providing treatments in a more effective and much quicker manner, but if the hon. Gentleman would like to discus the matter further, I would be very happy to see him and talk it through in more detail.
I think that it would be useful for me, picking up on the points raised early in the debate, to outline the processes involved in opening a pharmacy. Anyone can open a pharmacy anywhere, subject to the premises being registered with the General Pharmaceutical Council, when the owner’s service model includes the sale or supply of pharmacy medicines or prescription-only medicines against prescriptions from that pharmacy. However, there are extra criteria for providing NHS pharmaceutical services. Anyone wanting to provide NHS pharmaceutical services is required to apply to the NHS to be included on a pharmaceutical list.
Before September 2012, there were control of entry requirements. The NHS (Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations 2005 determined whether a pharmaceutical contractor could provide NHS pharmaceutical services. In England, no new contractor could be entered on to a PCT pharmaceutical list unless it was “necessary or expedient” to secure the adequate provision of pharmaceutical services locally. That was the control of entry test. If a new service provider was judged neither necessary nor expedient, the NHS, or the PCT in question, had to refuse the application. There were rights of appeal to the family health services appeal unit, which is run by the NHS Litigation Authority. That was available if there was a concern.
Part of the reason for the strict criteria relates to the pricing mechanism and how pharmacists are paid, which I will come to later. Obviously, the local health economy is an issue, and pharmacists are not paid just for the number of prescriptions that they provide; they are also given a baseline fee. When we have a publicly funded health service and we need to ensure that need and demand are aligned, it is important that we look at this in the round. I sympathise very strongly with the points about the need to de-bureaucratise the NHS where possible—those were good points well made—but we also have to recognise that this is not just about arbitrary mapping; it is about aligning need and demand for a service within the pricing framework in place. That is not just about the number of prescriptions that are provided; it is a much more complex mechanism. I will come to those points later.
Mr Jamie Reed
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being typically generous. On pharmacy numbers, does he think that we have too few or too many, or is the number about right?
Dr Poulter
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that under the previous Government, the Office of Fair Trading did a review and recommended total deregulation of the pharmacy industry. That was in 2003. The previous Government put in place a strong package of reforms to recognise that we need some degree of what my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich would call market forces but I would probably refer to more as patient choice. We need to support patient choice as much as we can, but within the context in which we have a publicly funded service that needs to be regulated. It is a health care service; it is treating and looking after patients. We need not only to secure good value for the taxpayer, as part of how we fund that service, but to ensure that there is independent regulation and some regulation by Government as well. That is about ensuring that we have the highest-quality services available.
Given that I am running short of time, I will write to my hon. Friend or I would be happy to meet him—whichever he prefers—to talk through the specifics of the context of mapping out a local needs assessment, which is now carried out by health and wellbeing boards. That is a pharmaceutical needs assessment. I am happy to talk through with him in detail how that interrelates with the pricing mechanism and how we need to ensure that the two are kept in balance in the context of the conversation that the hon. Member for Copeland and I have just had.
It is worth highlighting the fact that pharmacists and pharmacies play an increasingly important role in our NHS. Many pharmacies now provide additional services. They are contracted to do so outside those pricing frameworks. That is done locally by clinical commissioning groups. Health and wellbeing boards or local authorities can also contract pharmacists to provide services. As my hon. Friend will be aware, responsibility for public health—40% of that budget—has now passed to local authorities. Given that public health responsibility, there is a strong role for local authorities in commissioning local health care services if they feel that that would be in the interests of the local population.
Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, other providers of health care services, outside the traditional framework of GP and community services and secondary care, were given more of an opportunity to put themselves forward and offer to provide valuable services. This is a real opportunity for pharmacists to bring forward to CCGs what they do and to make the case that they can provide many services in a way that will be focused on primary prevention and that will save the local health economy money but also deliver better care. The track record of pharmacies and pharmacists is very good in delivering community care—whether looking after people with diabetes or providing simple services for other patient groups. Under the 2012 Act, there is now a much greater opportunity for pharmacists to come forward and put in offers, within an integrated health service, and make the case about how they can provide services. They may be able to do that in a much better way, as they are often embedded in their communities, than some of the traditional mechanisms in the NHS.
I hope that my hon. Friend will be reassured by the fact that the legislation that we have put in place as a Government has given pharmacists a much greater opportunity to contribute to their local health economy, not just in economic terms and in terms of the economic benefits that that will bring for pharmacists, but by delivering the very good care that we know they can deliver.
We have had a wide-ranging debate. I think that we can be sure that there is in place a robust pricing mechanism, which on the whole works very well and secures good value for the taxpayer and for local patients, but there are issues about certain items that pharmacists can prescribe, and we do need to look into them. There is a role for NHS Protect in doing that. We value the innovation that pharmacists provide locally in delivering better—higher-quality—patient-centred care, and the 2012 Act has put us in a better place to support local pharmacists in delivering the kind of patient care that we all want to see in our local communities.
Dr William McCrea (in the Chair)
I thank Members for the courteous manner in which they conducted the debate.
Internet Governance
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea—I think for the first time. A number of colleagues have remarked that this is a peculiar subject for debate and have asked me to clarify the debate’s purpose. I should make it clear that that group does not include the Minister, who has positioned himself as a driving influence on internet governance. He has attended the past three meetings of the Internet Governance Forum—an organisation that I will come to later in my remarks—where his contributions have been valued greatly, so demonstrating that the UK is a leading contributor to the development and evolution of the internet. Nevertheless, it is worth explaining why I have chosen this subject for debate and why it is so important to us all.
The internet is a tool that crosses all spheres of life. It is hard to believe that it is only 30 years old, and even younger to the mass population. At the outset, it was a network used by academics to connect research and academic institutions; now it is central to all personal and commercial activities in our lives. It allows better communication, permits transactions and can help to generate wealth and support freedom. It has been central to the overturning of Governments in the interests of democracy around the world, but has, sadly, facilitated the spread of terrorism at the same time. We must always be aware that it can be used for malevolent purposes.
The governance of such an instrument is obviously relevant to us all and any changes to that are a matter for us all to comment on. Child protection online has dominated the political agenda of late in the United Kingdom and is an obvious example of why internet governance is important and relevant to individuals, families and organisations. It is not a techie thing: its implications are far reaching. Trust and identity, security and cyber-security are just a few issues that show why Governments and individuals need to be equally interested in internet governance.
The internet’s roots in academia mean that its governance structure has simply evolved, and that evolution has generally taken place in the absence of Government interference, probably because it took Governments some time to understand the internet’s potential. If Governments had been more involved, the internet would have taken much longer to develop and would be less free, less innovative and less revolutionary—in every sense of the word. The freedom of the internet has led to its innovation. If Governments had been in control, we would not be where we are today and the world would, without question, be a different place.
In effect, the internet has developed according to what has been labelled a multi-stakeholder agenda: the private sector, civil society, academic groups, technical communities and the voluntary sector have all played their part, as well as Governments, with all stakeholders contributing on an equal footing. That situation gave rise to the Internet Governance Forum—an annual conference that stemmed from the United Nations world summit on the information society in 2005. Its purpose is to bring together a wide range of individuals and organisations to discuss internet governance issues. It recognises the need for partnership, consensus building and innovation to respond to improvements in technology, together with the new opportunities and challenges that those changes and improvements bring.
The Internet Governance Forum, or IGF, offers a neutral space. Although it does not result in a negotiated outcome, the organisations that it gathers together develop thinking that is implemented by the international multi-stakeholder community. The IGF provides an excellent framework for understanding internet issues, where difficult balances often need to be maintained. The UK has been at the forefront of parliamentary engagement with the issue, and MPs from around the world have played an active role in shaping discussions over the years. I would encourage continued participation.
I have had the privilege of attending two meetings of the Internet Governance Forum and draw Members’ attention to the relevant entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Nominet, the internet registry company that manages the .uk domain space, has sponsored MPs from all parties to attend over the past seven years, recognising the forum’s importance.
I pay tribute to Nominet’s role in the organisation itself. It plays a full part in developing thinking about internet governance and ensures that the UK’s interests are heard at the centre of the decision-making process. It is also worth noting that the United Kingdom Internet Governance Forum, or UK-IGF—the organisation that develops thinking on internet governance here in the UK—would not happen without Nominet’s support, so Nominet plays a much bigger part than simply managing the .uk domain registry.
The UK-IGF also takes a neutral position, allowing and encouraging all attendees to contribute freely and to develop independent thinking. I had the privilege of chairing this year’s meeting of the UK-IGF, which, among other issues, highlighted child protection, youth engagement and identity and trust. That event was central to the contributions made by UK representatives at the IGF. Attending the past two IGF meetings has given me an opportunity better to understand international influences and cultures and how they form part of the internet governance process.
For me, this year’s IGF was markedly different to the meeting a year earlier. Among the range of subjects under discussion, which included trust and identity, cyber-security, human rights and protection of children online, the structure and governance of the internet itself was dominant. That is why I wanted to secure today’s debate, to ensure that the issues that were considered there are on the record here in Parliament.
When I say, “The structure and governance of the internet,” I am referring to the calls by some Governments and some nations to have a greater say in how the internet is governed—perhaps, according to their agenda, I should say managed. Before I explain the risks that entails, it is worth commenting on the governance structure of the internet as it stands. The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, or ICANN, co-ordinates the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, or IANA. IANA is the department of ICANN responsible for co-ordinating some of the key elements that keep the internet running smoothly. It allocates and maintains unique codes and numbering systems that are used in the technical standards that drive the internet and enable it to work. Although the internet is renowned for being a worldwide network that is free from central co-ordination, there is a technical need for some key parts of the internet to be globally co-ordinated; that co-ordination role is undertaken by IANA. ICANN performs the IANA functions under a US Government contract—a fact that is particularly relevant.
It is that relationship with the US Government that some organisations and nations are concerned about and are seeking to change. The fallout from the Edward Snowden revelations was a genuine concern to some at the IGF, but it is being used by others as an opportunity to gain stronger control of the internet. Some Governments are calling for changes to the way in which the internet is governed, potentially risking the freedoms that it has brought about, and using information shared by Edward Snowden as the reason—or should I say as the excuse?—to do so.
I believe that the internet must remain open with oversight that derives from the joint action of international organisations, industry and civil society, but I am concerned that other nations are calling for control that could limit the internet’s contents and, as a result, its potential for innovation, ingenuity and investment. Next April, the Brazilian Government are hosting a summit to consider the issue. It is not yet clear what the exact purpose of that summit is, but it is clear that some nations see it as a key step to increasing their power and influence, and that of Governments in general, over the internet.
If those Governments are successful, that will raise serious issues for us all. The great freedoms that have come from the internet as we know it may well be under threat. To give credit to the Minister and to the Foreign Office, the UK Government have already played a leading role in promoting internet freedoms. I refer to the positive response that I received from the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson) to a written parliamentary question:
“At the heart of the Government’s vision for the future of cyberspace is an open, borderless internet that benefits from collective oversight between Governments, international organisations, industry and civil society.”—[Official Report, 11 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 447W.]
That is exactly what I want to support and underline. It is critical that no single body controls all the functions that govern the internet. That was set out by the UK Government in 2011, when the Foreign Secretary launched what has become known as the London process of international conferences on cyberspace.
It was good to see that the Government underscored their position again in South Korea earlier this year. The Government, working with other stakeholders including Nominet, Internet Society England, BT and Global Partners Digital, have an excellent track record in shaping the discussions, and I am sure that they will continue to take a leading role in preparation for the conference in Brazil and in discussions in the United Nations, where some Governments seek to establish intergovernmental control. The multi-stakeholder approach, as opposed to the multilateral approach that is urged on us by some people, must be preserved.
The Snowden case has led some nations to question the US Government’s relationship with the internet, but let us remember that they have an enviable reputation in defending human rights and freedom of expression that many who seek to influence the internet governance debate do not. We must recognise that the environment has changed, however, and bear that in mind in preparing for the forthcoming discussions at the International Telecommunications Union in Brazil and in the UN General Assembly.
We must continue to support ICANN, and we must maintain the integrity of the system, including the all-important IANA function. Without careful and accountable management of those critical operations, we put at risk the integrity of the internet and its ability to evolve and expand. ICANN must develop internationally, and it can only do so if we assure the accountability of the organisation. An important part of that is to ensure active, multi-stakeholder engagement in shaping the future development of the organisation. The IGF, which is central to that, must also evolve. It is the only UN-mandated forum that brings together the experts who shape and develop the internet with the policy makers, Governments, legislators and regulators.
I am pleased that the Government are taking this role seriously. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence are all taking the matter very seriously, because although some people may consider it to be a technical subject, it is relevant to us all.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Dr McCrea. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) for calling this important debate. He said that it was a vital issue, but apparently it is not one on which our colleagues feel well briefed. As I gazed round the room and realised that we were alone, until my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies)—the one colleague who is interested in the subject—joined us, I thought that that spoke volumes about parliamentary participation. As we constantly tell our constituents, however, our physical absence does not necessarily indicate that we are not interested in an issue.
My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan has brought this matter to the attention of the House with his absolutely superb speech. I am sure that what I am about to say will come out the wrong way, but I could not have given a better speech myself. He articulated all the key issues that surround the slightly esoteric question of internet governance, and he illustrated why it is a vital issue for politicians in this country and across the globe who value a free and open internet and who recognise the astonishing benefits that the internet has brought.
I always begin such speeches by discussing the remarkable benefits that the internet has brought, and it is a cliché and a truism to say that over the past 20 years, it has begun to completely transform the way in which we do business and communicate. It has brought the globe closer together. It will drive economic growth, not only in this country—one of the most tech-savvy and internet-engaged nations in the world; the British consumer adapts well to new technology and e-commerce is a significant part of our retail landscape—but, perhaps more importantly, in the developed world. We all know how Africa has been able to leapfrog the fixed infrastructure found in developed countries on to a mobile infrastructure, which has enabled rural businesses in Africa in particular to trade and fundamentally remodel the way in which they do business. Such rapid innovation makes a massive difference to the developing world. Our message about a free and open internet, which is often misinterpreted as being a self-interested message on behalf of the west, is actually a message to the world about how the current model for internet governance secures the innovation that is transforming lives across the world.
As a result of that model, the internet is open, global and borderless; its technical standards are open and developed by consensus; and it is open to new devices, applications and services. There is no centralised or overarching global framework of top- down intergovernmental control or oversight. The key stakeholders that have made the internet such a success continue to have a voice: businesses, civil society, the technical community and the academic institutions where the internet was born. Governments can work with those stakeholders to share knowledge, experience, skills and best practice. Governments alone would not have the expertise that other stakeholders can provide.
My hon. Friend referred to the United Nations world summit on the information society that was held in 2005, which affirmed the multi-stakeholder model as the best way forward. That model, which is based on collaboration, consensus and partnership-building, ensures that the internet continues to be dynamic, innovative and robust. He rightly highlighted the continuing challenges to the model, and the challenges faced by those of us who believe in a free and open internet. The protection of children online, for example, is a massively important issue.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
That is an important issue in my constituency. I hope the Minister agrees that although we need an open and dynamic internet, the Government must be aware of the areas in which there is a real danger and do what they can—within reasonable powers and without damaging the internet—to exercise control and protect children from content that is extremely damaging.
Mr Vaizey
My hon. Friend is completely correct. The rule of law applies to the internet, and that which is illegal in the physical world is illegal in the online world. That is why a zero-tolerance policy towards child abuse images does not pose a threat to internet freedom. Those images are vile and illegal, and we must do everything in our power to remove them from the internet and catch those who exchange them. That is why we have worked with internet service providers to give parents the tools they need to protect their children online, and we will continue to apply the law on pornography online as well as offline. There are other issues: consumer protection, intellectual property rights, data protection, legal and regulatory frameworks and business models have had to adapt. They are all factors in our approach to internet policies.
There are challenges and opportunities, such as the need to promote greater multilingualism on the internet, so that more people around the world can access it in their own language. As I said, we need to support the developing world in expanding its capacity and internet infrastructure. That is why I am delighted that the Department for International Development, for example, supports the Alliance for an Affordable Internet in that area. The key point, which our approach to child protection highlights, is that no one stakeholder or Government acting alone can tackle the issues. Everyone needs to work together and collaborate, which emphasises why we are supportive of the multi-stakeholder model.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan pointed out, there have been calls from some countries for a fundamental change in the international internet governance model. Some have called for Governments to have direct oversight of the internet and for a new intergovernmental organisation to create treaty-based rules. That sounds perfectly sensible at first blush—a superficially easy solution to some of the difficult challenges that we face with the internet and internet governance. Our strong view is that that top-down model would not work and would put the internet at risk for three reasons.
First, such formal institutional decision-making models would not be able to keep pace with the rapid technological change that is characteristic of the internet and the rapidly evolving needs and desires of internet users. Such a model would act as a brake on innovation and stifle the dynamism that has allowed the internet to deliver many benefits and opportunities for economic growth and social welfare. Secondly, the internet is an adaptive technology. It is not a single entity but a network of networks with no centralised control. It is questionable from a technical point of view how top-down control of the internet by Governments would work. Finally, as I said in my opening remarks, the internet is a tool that affects nearly all aspects of life. Any new intergovernmental organisation would at best duplicate the mandates of existing international organisations and at worst lead to significant confusion.
The World Trade Organisation, the World Intellectual Property Organisation, Interpol and many other international organisations have over recent years expanded their capacity to deal with internet-related issues in their areas of expertise. That seems to be a sensible way forward. We do not support the establishment of a new intergovernmental body, but that does not mean to say that we should resist all change. The international internet governance model needs to be kept fit for purpose, and as the internet develops, we must ensure that the existing processes we support can adapt to keep pace with future opportunities. Work is already under way in that respect.
My hon. Friend mentioned the IGF. I attended the past three forums. I missed the first one when I was a Minister, but I have been to every one since. The most recent took place last month. This debate is an opportunity for me to pay tribute to a number of players. The previous Labour Minister with responsibility for telecoms, Alun Michael, now a police and crime commissioner, helped to establish the IGF after the world summit on the information society. I pay tribute to him as a former Minister who maintained his interest and expertise in the area. He kept the issue alive in Parliament as well as supporting the creation of the UK-IGF. I echo the praise that my hon. Friend lavished on Nominet, the charity responsible for UK domain names, ably led by Lesley Cowley. It does a fantastic job in showing that the multi-stakeholder model is effective and that a private not-for-profit organisation can play a key role and respond to pressures and challenges sensibly. I pay tribute to the charity and its leadership.
May I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend? Since the departure of Alun Michael, he has stepped up, as it were, to become Mr Internet Governance in Parliament. He does a superb job chairing the UK-IGF parliamentary meeting and takes a keen interest in all the issues. As his remarks show, he displays a deep understanding, which is incredibly valuable to my work and the work of other Ministers.
The IGF plays a valuable role in bringing together a broad range of stakeholders to discuss issues of common concern and, having attended the past three forums, I know that it is effective. It has taken steps, which we support, to improve its effectiveness. The UN Commission on Science and Technology for Development has established a working group to look at how enhanced co-operation with Governments works and whether changes or adaptations are needed. We look forward to seeing the results of that work next year. My hon. Friend also mentioned ICANN, which has taken steps to internationalise its presence, under the new and able leadership of Fadi Chehadé, and open up the domain name system. We encourage it to continue that process. In 2015, the United Nations will conduct a 10-year review of the actions that came out of the world summit on the information society. We hope that that work will feed into the development of the millennium development goals. We continue to support such international processes.
My hon. Friend also mentioned the Brazilian summit. The Brazilian Government are proposing further international discussions on internet governance in April or May next year. Brazil has played a positive and valuable role in internet governance for many years. The Brazilian internet steering committee has published a set of principles for the governance and use of the internet. Those principles have been a helpful contribution to the debate, which many countries, including the UK, broadly support. We look forward to hearing more details about any event in Brazil next year and we stand ready to engage in that important process.
As I have said, perhaps repeatedly, we are sceptical about greater control of the internet by Governments or by an intergovernmental organisation. We are committed to engaging in discussions about how we can ensure that the current model remains fit for purpose. The tests we should apply to any proposed change to the internet governance model must ultimately be practical. Does it allow us to maintain the internet as an open, robust and technically secure service? Does it help us to find sustainable and consensus-based solutions to the challenges that we face? Does it allow the internet to continue to develop and innovate and offer social and economic benefits to more people around the world? The internet has been a huge success and continues to transform all aspects of our lives. We must work to maintain and strengthen the multi-stakeholder model of internet governance that has sustained that success and ensure that it is fit for purpose in the future.
Cost of Child Care
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I am grateful for this opportunity to lead this afternoon’s debate on the cost of child care—a growing concern to many Members across the House. Perhaps I should start by declaring an interest as the proud mother of a little girl. Like many Members, I have come to realise how difficult it can be for families to find the right kind of child care place. I am in the fortunate position of not having to make the same kinds of financial decision about what works for my family. I am very lucky, but I am conscious that many people face difficult situations.
Once again, it is the Labour party that is highlighting the cost of living crisis. We are all too familiar with the challenges that our constituents find in accessing affordable child care and the increasing burden that they face. The failure to keep down the cost of child care has put immense pressure on household budgets and directly contributed to the cost of living crisis facing so many families across our communities. That failure applies equally to pre-school provision and provision for school-age children.
By 2015, families with children will have lost up to £7 billion a year of support. Right now, families with pre-school children face a triple blow of spiralling child care costs, a reduction in nursery places and a cut in financial assistance. Some of those families are losing up to £1,500 a year due to tax credits changes.
Parents often say that child care can really become a logistical nightmare once children reach school age. Despite that, the previous Labour Government’s programme to support school-age children has been abandoned by the Department for Education, leaving many parents struggling to juggle work and family life. The Minister will no doubt claim that the Government are making progress; unfortunately, however, creative number crunching cannot hide the fact that the Government’s plans are failing to support the majority of families. It has been left to Labour to respond to the current crisis, with our proposals to extend child care for working parents of three and four-year-olds and to introduce a legal guarantee for primary schools to make child care available from 8 am to 6 pm.
The previous Labour Government understood the importance of the issue. The 1998 national child care strategy recognised for the first time that child care was not just a private family matter, but one where Government had a role to play in ensuring the affordability, availability and accessibility of high-quality child care places. Much was achieved during those 13 years of Labour Governments.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I should say to the hon. Lady and other Labour Members that the number of child minders fell significantly during their party’s time in office. It will be interesting to hear more about availability.
Bridget Phillipson
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, for whom I have a lot of respect. She takes a keen interest in these matters and wants to make sure that families have real choice among the options available when finding child care places for their children. I will make the very point put to her during yesterday’s debate: we need to make sure that child minders are of the right quality and can provide the best possible care for children. Unfortunately, some child minders, who are no longer registered, were not able to make that leap forward in providing the best possible high-quality care that we all want for the youngest children in our society.
The early-years entitlement was pioneered for four-year-olds in 1998 and it was extended to three-year-olds in 2004. Labour introduced the extended schools programme to help meet the needs of children, families and the wider community. Labour created Sure Start children’s centres and established more than 3,500 of them across the country.
Before the last general election, I was, like many others, relieved to hear the current Prime Minister acknowledge that Labour was right to prioritise child care support for families and pledge to protect Sure Start. However, like so many people, I have been bitterly disappointed that more than 500 Sure Start centres have closed since 2010 and that more than half of those still open are no longer providing on-site child care. All we heard today from the Prime Minister was a confirmation of that.
Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)
Is the hon. Lady familiar with the situation in Norfolk—a fine county that is home to my constituency and that of the Minister? Its current Labour administration refuses to give any protection to libraries in carrying out the cuts that it now has to make. Does she share my concern that libraries are also used by many families with young children, who need those services? The Conservatives did protect those libraries when they were in a position to do so.
Bridget Phillipson
Perhaps the hon. Lady could have a chat with a colleague at the Department for Communities and Local Government about the disproportionate cuts passed on to local councils. My local council is facing some of the biggest cuts in the country, having been given a disproportionate and unfair burden. Councils are being forced to take really difficult decisions about the kinds of services that they can provide.
I value the important role that libraries play in our community, just as I value Sure Start children’s centres. However, councils face impossible demands and are really struggling to balance the books. I suggest that the hon. Lady continues to lobby for her constituents, but it is her Government who are passing on those significant cuts—
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. I ask the Parliamentary Private Secretary not to interrupt speakers.
Bridget Phillipson
A significant body of evidence shows that pre-school years are critical to a child’s development. Despite that, pre-school child care is becoming inaccessible to an increasing number of families. The cost of nursery places has risen by more than 30% since the last election—five times faster than the rise in wages over the equivalent period. It now costs, on average, £107 a week for a 25-hour nursery place. Parents working part time on average wages now have to work from Monday to Thursday before they have paid off their weekly child care costs.
To make matters worse, all this has happened while there have been 35,000 fewer child care places than in 2010. The fact is that for many parents, especially single parents, there is no longer a viable choice. With prices rising faster than wages, thousands of parents are being forced to stay at home to look after their children when they want the opportunity to work.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Against that backdrop, is it not regrettable that, as part of their plans for universal credit, the Government intend to put the lowest-earning parents in the position of being helped with only 70% of their child care costs? Better-off parents, however, will receive help with 85% of such costs. Is that not perverse?
Bridget Phillipson
My hon. Friend makes an important point. She has consistently raised such concerns with Ministers and she continues to challenge the Government about them. Her point is of particular concern. We want to support the poorest families to access child care, but what she has mentioned will no doubt make that a lot harder.
The reality is that it is predominantly women who have been hardest hit by the rising cost of child care. Female unemployment is at its highest for a generation. According to the Office for National Statistics, more than 1 million women in the UK are out of work—an increase of 82,000 since May 2010. Affordable child care gives women the independence to make choices that are right for them and for their families. Every woman who is forced out of the workplace suffers a significant personal blow, while the rest of society loses her talent, knowledge and expertise.
As we heard in yesterday’s debate on this issue, the Government’s own social mobility and child poverty commission is clear that, for many low-income parents, cost, rather than quality, was the main factor in choosing child care. A recent survey by Asda showed that child care costs prevent 70% of stay-at-home mums from working.
I am sure that the Minister will agree that, in economic terms, it is absurd to lose the valuable contribution of women in the workplace. Higher unemployment rates increase the benefits bill and reduce tax revenues, while higher rates of women’s employment support stronger economic growth.
If the economic recovery is to harness everyone’s potential, the Government should ensure that work pays for all families. That is why Labour is proposing targeted measures to bring down child care costs. Our plan has two major components. First, child care for three and four-year-olds will be extended from 15 to 25 hours per week for working parents. That support will be made available both to single-parent working households and two-parent households where both parents work. Those plans will be fully funded through the bank levy.
In the last financial year, the banks paid a staggering £2.7 billion less in overall tax than they did in 2010, while over the last two years the Government’s bank levy has raised £1.6 billion less than they said it would. I hope the Minister agrees that, at a time when resources are tight and families are under pressure, that cannot be right.
The second component of Labour’s plan will be a focus on the primary school guarantee. Some 62% of parents with children of school age say that they want to be able to combine working and family life. For that to happen, they need to be able to access care before the school day begins, after it ends and during holiday periods. Nearly 30% of those who need such care were unable to find it. That is unacceptable.
Research from the Minister’s own Department backs that up. In September 2011, the Department published research highlighting that extended services provision can have an important positive impact on children, families, communities and schools themselves. Under the previous Government, 99% of schools provided access to breakfast clubs and after-school clubs, but more than a third of local authorities have reported that that has been scaled back in their area in the past three years. That is why Labour will legislate to guarantee that parents can access child care from 8 am to 6 pm if they choose.
Tackling the cost of child care is only one part of the solution. We must also consider how we can improve its availability and accessibility. Evidence shows that families from lower-income backgrounds, including in parts of my constituency, are among the least likely to use formal child care. We need to help our constituents understand the support that is available and how they can access it, along with the benefits that can come from having a child in nursery or child care provision. Furthermore, many parents in my local area work shifts, so child care services must become much more flexible to meet their needs and the circumstances of their employment.
The location of child care services is another important consideration. For many people in my constituency, transport is a major problem, owing to a lack of train services and a limited and expensive bus network, and I have been campaigning to change that.
We need a joined-up approach to child care. We need health visitors working with housing and child care providers, and councils working with the Government. Of course, families will always have the freedom to make arrangements that best suit their circumstances, preferences and needs, but the Government’s role is to ensure that every effort is made to provide support that is affordable and available when needed and accessible where needed.
Labour is the only party listening to parents and acting on their concerns. Child care is as important to the future of this country as investment in infrastructure. High-quality child care is key to tackling child poverty and improving social mobility. Labour has a clear plan for delivering that. It is the right thing for families, and it is the best thing for our country.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sunderland upon Tyne South—
Dr Coffey
I got that wrong—I apologise to the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), whom I congratulate on securing this debate. I appreciate that we had a debate yesterday on a similar topic, and I welcome this opportunity to contribute again on this important matter.
I thought that, rather than just reading out my entire transcript from yesterday’s Hansard, I would spend a bit more time saying a little more on the issue. The aspirations set out by the hon. Lady—affordability, availability and accessibility—are critical. As she said in the answer that she kindly provided me, the reason why so many child minders fell out of the system in the 13 years of Labour Governments was quality. She is absolutely right; we need to ensure that high quality—in fact, world-class quality—child care is widely available.
That is why I support what the Government are doing to try to raise the quality of child care. The issue is also about improving our young children’s access to education. As has been pointed out by many on both sides of the House, it is key that we do our best with our youngsters to ensure that they are able to access the opportunities available to everyone. That is also an important part of social mobility.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
The figures on child minders have been cited on a number of occasions. Does the hon. Lady accept, as the Minister did yesterday, that the figures have declined in the three years under this Government? There are 2,423 fewer child minders in the system now than in 2010.
Dr Coffey
I understand that, but having 2,400 fewer since 2010 is a little different from having 53,000 fewer in 13 years. I am not going to go over again the ground that we have already discussed.
It is fair to say that there are an extra 800,000 nursery places through schools.
Catherine McKinnell
Is the hon. Lady suggesting that those additional places were created in the past three years?
Dr Coffey
My understanding is that the provision has grown in that time. I am sure that the hon. Lady will correct me if she thinks I am wrong. I meant “grown”, not “groan”, unlike the joke yesterday.
Returning to affordability, there is no doubt that the cost of child care has risen significantly. Some of that will have been due to supply and demand; there is no question about that, where demand exceeds supply. It is important to expand the number of child minders to help with that.
One of the things that the Government are doing right is allowing schools to shed some of the regulatory burden on the ability to provide a wider range of child care opportunities on site. Labour suggests that legislation is required to have a primary school guarantee, but I do not believe that. What is important is that a school should not have to register separately with Ofsted if it offers provision for under-four-year-olds or that it should not need such tight planning when it wishes to expand. The same should apply when existing nurseries of good and outstanding quality wish to expand.
We are changing things so that Ofsted-registered and good or outstanding nurseries will start to receive funding directly, cutting out the recycling of money through the local council. That is another good measure to accelerate the needed provision of high quality child care.
Another good thing—the Minister may talk at more length about some of these—would be to streamline qualifications for early years, instead of having a choice of about 400 potential qualifications. In that way, parents could readily and easily check the quality rather than have to do their own research. Having an accreditation with fewer qualifications is a streamlining simplification that will help not only providers of child care but parents to make an appropriate assessment of what the right thing is.
On the cost of child care, I think the Government accept that having some of the most expensive child care in Europe—we are second highest behind Switzerland —is not sustainable. We need to address that. Coming from a Conservative tradition, I would try to do that not just by constantly upping the subsidy, but by providing wider choice, which will bring down cost. However, I commend the tax-free child care scheme, which will be available to working families.
I am sure that Government Members would be delighted if we could persuade the Chancellor to bring that scheme forward by a year, but I accept the fiscal constraints under which the Government operate. In any case, I am pleased that the scheme will be forthcoming in April 2015. That is a real positive for working mothers and fathers.
Other useful measures that the Government are introducing include shared parental leave. I understand that our coalition partners are keen to extend that even further; that is a debate for another time. I am pleased that we are pressing forward with that important development, and I am sure that Opposition Members welcome it too.
The reason why I do not think we need legislation to implement the primary school guarantee is that we can just get on with the scheme if that is what primary schools wish to do. We may require a statutory duty to force that to happen, and we have to consider that, but I see leading schools providing it already.
One point that I made yesterday is key. Governing bodies should work with head teachers and parents to ensure that the school day is not artificially reduced simply to have as short a lunch time as legally possible, but to ensure that time spent at school is available for extra-curricular activities and to be mindful of the fact that parents are working.
On Sure Start, we can have the back-and-forth. I have not had time since yesterday’s debate to go into the full detail, constituency by constituency, on the back-and-forth about whether 500 or just 45 have closed. As I said yesterday, I am happy to rely on the Minister’s assurance.
We are talking about choices. Yesterday, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell)—I got that constituency right—talked about the level of cuts, an issue referred to today by the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South. I have looked briefly at the website of the Department for Communities and Local Government. Using the spending power formula, which the Local Government Association recommended to the Government, I am able to say that spending in Newcastle upon Tyne has gone down by 1.4% this year; in Sunderland by 1.5%; and in Middlesbrough —I see that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) is present—by 0.5%. I did not have time to look at Wolverhampton.
Those figures come from the spreadsheet that I have opened. Meanwhile, spending has decreased in Norfolk by 1.6% and in Suffolk by 2.1%. In spite of that, Suffolk county council is keeping open its Sure Start centres. Yes, the management of some centres has been merged. The two in Felixstowe are run by one lady, the magnificent Jennifer Clarke-Pearson, who is working hard with families in Felixstowe to make that happen.
As I reiterated yesterday, it is important that in this wider debate about public services, which my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) mentioned, we must ensure that front-line services are protected—as constituency champions, all hon. Members in this Chamber will continue to do that. However, we should not get hung up solely on bricks and mortar. We must focus on the outcomes.
Kate Green
I agree that we should not just focus on bricks and mortar. However, although centres in my local authority in Trafford are being merged, as the hon. Lady described, the availability of services has been significantly reduced. A number of programmes that were appreciated by families, some of which were available universally in the past, are now not available.
Dr Thérèse Coffey
I am genuinely sorry to hear that; I am not being flippant. It is important that local councils continue to provide valuable services that are doing good for local families, but, again, sometimes the Whitehall solution does not always work in the constituency or council area. The Department for Education issued statutory guidance in April to try to encourage councils and children’s centres to refocus—not on universality, perhaps, but on the families that Sure Start was originally set up to help.
Dr Coffey
That is my understanding, although the hon. Lady shakes her head.
I praise the valuable work of Home-Start, locally—certainly in Suffolk. It is going into the homes of people that Sure Start is not attracting into its centres. If Sure Start is stage two for these families and parents, that is to be welcomed. Sure Start should be focusing on the needs of more vulnerable families and less wealthy families, rather than being a universal thing, when other providers can provide child care. We have heard that Sure Start centres provide only 1% of child care opportunities.
Catherine McKinnell
I am not sure which year the figures the hon. Lady cited relate to; I suspect it is the financial year 2013-14. The point that I was making yesterday—she mentioned the speech I made yesterday—is that councils have to look two, three or four years ahead, to work out how to manage their finances. The cuts that we are talking about have not yet come.
Dr Coffey
I accept that point. The hon. Lady is accurate in saying that I was referring to 2013-14.
More widely, I appreciate councils’ concerns. Our own councils are going through this challenge; it is not unique to councils in the north-east, Trafford or wherever else. It is happening across the country. However, we need to be mindful that reducing support to local councils is being made up for, in some part, by other opportunities for councils to raise money. That may not be popular; it is certainly not popular with one of my constituents, who complained that they were going to have to start paying council tax on a house that had lain empty for three years. Such policies are not always popular, but they are revenue opportunities, as is business rates retention, which I am sure the hon. Lady supports. That is to encourage new start-up companies in areas such as hers and to attract companies’ inward investment, through relocation to the north-east, for example.
I shall bring my remarks to a conclusion, because I appreciate that many hon. Members want to participate. All parties are united on affordability, availability, accessibility and quality, which the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South mentioned accurately at the start, although we have different ways of achieving those things. But all our reforms are working and I hope that they will continue to blossom. I look forward to the Minister’s explaining in further detail why we in the Government are leading the child care revolution.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Hood.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), I declare an interest. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. One is still going through the nursery system and one has recently done so. As well as declaring my interest, I also confess that before I had children I did not appreciate the importance of this issue to families or the costs or choices that people were forced into when trying to organise and pay for child care.
Before talking about costs, I want say something about the benefits. A good-quality nursery education can be hugely beneficial for young children. It can contribute enormously to their social confidence; it gives them their first friendships outside the immediate family; it helps them to learn the basic building blocks—colours, shapes and numbers—and it improves their speech. It is hugely beneficial. It enables them to be more confident, outgoing children. That is important, because we should all agree that we want children to get a good start in life. We know that it is in the early years, and the early months, of a child’s life that the first inequality often sets in. Good-quality early years care can be important in improving life chances and extending opportunity.
In a recent speech, the chair of Ofsted said that some children begin school 18 to 19 months behind in their development, compared with other children. Any society that cares about equality of opportunity or life chances should be concerned by that stark statistic. This is about cost, but it is also about quality and opportunity.
We cannot have a situation where some are effectively able to pull up the drawbridge on children who do not get good life chances, and allow these patterns of inequality to remain unaddressed. I do not seek to blame the present Government for that pattern. Inequality of opportunity is deep-seated and has existed for a long time. However, as my hon. Friend said, things are getting harder, with the closure of Sure Start centres and rising costs.
Let me turn to the costs and the choice faced by working families. We now have decent maternity provision in the UK. We used to be pretty much at the bottom of the European league. We are not at the top of the league, but we are in a respectable mid-table position. Mothers are entitled to 52 weeks leave, of which they will be paid for 39 weeks, although only the first six weeks is to be paid at the high rate of 90% of their salary. After that, mothers are dependent on contractual provision, which varies among employers. Fathers are now entitled to paternity leave for the first time, which is a welcome change introduced by the Government of whom I was a member. Before that, there was no recognition at all in the system of the role that dads might play around the time of birth or of the degree of support that they could offer to new mums.
The costs of child care really kick in when maternity leave comes to an end and mums want to go back to work. In London, a full-time nursery place can easily cost £1,300 to £1,400 a month. Let us pause and think about that. That is £15,000 a year, cash up front. There is a little bit of tax relief for this, but it is essentially cash up front. If people have two children in nursery, which is not uncommon, the cost may fall a little as the child turns two and three and the 15 free hours kick in, but a family could easily be looking at a cash figure of £25,000 a year for two children in nursery. That means that someone with two children would have to earn some £40,000, well above the national full-time average salary, just to pay for child care.
Outside London, the costs are lower, but still expensive. In my Wolverhampton constituency, a full-time nursery place costs about £600 to £700 a month or around £8,000 a year. It has to be remembered that that is £8,000 a year in a constituency where full-time average salaries are just over £20,000 a year. Even though child care is cheaper outside the capital, it is still a huge proportion of a full-time salary. No wonder that mums, particularly mums with two or more young children, are quickly forced into a choice between working and looking after the children. It is sometimes dads, but mostly it is mums who are taking longer parental leave and making that choice.
Some parents may want, and are able to afford, to stay at home, which is their choice, but most families need two salaries to survive. Facing such costs, mothers end up either working for very little—often because they fear that years out of the labour market will make it difficult for them to go back and that they will lose all sorts of opportunities—or being forced to give up their job simply because they cannot afford the child care. That is a huge waste of talent and experience. If capable people who are willing to work cannot do so because the costs of child care prove an insurmountable barrier, we have to care and do something about it because the country is losing out by forcing women into that choice.
This has gone on for far too long. I expect the Minister will stand up at the end of our debate and extol the importance of the 15-hour offer for three and four-year-olds and tell us how it has been extended to some two-year-olds. The offer was introduced by the previous Labour Government, and it makes a really big difference by giving important help to parents. Even I, as a member of that Government, do not pretend that the offer is the whole answer. The offer is often made in five chunks of three hours, which does not allow someone in a part-time job to rely solely on that child care; they still have to top up with other paid-for hours. What we need is child care built around the working day, which would be most valuable for working parents. The 15-hour offer is valuable and important, but I do not pretend that it is the full answer.
I am often struck by the comparison between how we fund early years and how we fund higher education. The time spent by children in nursery and by students doing a degree is pretty similar—typically three years in both cases. The costs are now similar. A full-time nursery place in Wolverhampton costs £8,000, and studying at university costs a similar amount. The difference is that the further south someone goes, even if they study at one of the best universities in the country, the cost of a nursery place becomes higher than the cost of a student place. For higher education students, there is a system of subsidised loans, with repayment terms contingent on earnings and forgiveness of the debt after a number of years if they do not earn enough. No such help exists for working parents, who are paying similar, and in some cases higher, costs. Working parents are expected to meet all those costs up front. They get almost no help other than a little bit of tax relief at the margins, which has a hugely damaging effect on the labour market and our economy.
There is an urgent need for more affordable places and for the same amount of national policy attention and energy to go into child care as has gone into higher education over the years. The truth is that child care has not received such attention and energy. When the costs of higher education go up, we often see students marching on the street. I confess that, when I was a student, I marched on the street for various causes. If the parents of one, two and three-year-olds were not so busy looking after their children and having to cope with the choices that we are talking about today, they would be marching on the street too.
Parents need our help. They need the same amount of policy attention as has gone into the costs at another point in young people’s lives. That is the priority that we should give to child care. Children need a good start in life, and parents need help. It is time that we made that a much higher priority.
Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), whose surname I have just acquired, with an extra z, from his fellow Scot, my husband.
Parents in Norwich North are taxpayers, too, and in this debate we must think about what they are paying. I am delighted that the Government I support have taken many of the lowest-earning parents out of income tax altogether, which is a good thing, but we ought to approach the debate honestly. Those young parents, who, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, are very busy, do not necessarily have time in between looking after their youngsters to take an extremely close interest in the goings on of this Chamber, but they should not be paid the disrespect of our talking dishonestly about the size of the pot and who pays for it.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), I am grateful to the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) for calling this debate, which gives us an opportunity to talk about these important issues. The hon. Lady might not be surprised if I begin by saying that, if she knew how hard it was going to be to reduce the deficit, she might have thought twice about her support for her party’s running up of the deficit in the first place. I know of no woman or man, no mother or father—indeed, no rational person—who would desire to leave debt to their children without having had the courage to address it themselves. It ought to be commonplace in this debate to say that addressing the deficit now ensures that future generations are not burdened with unsustainable debt, higher taxes or diminished public services. Of course, I will address the public service aspect today.
Among the many claims and counterclaims that have been made in recent weeks, the salient point, with respect to the taxpayers who have to trust us to do such things for them, is that the Leader of the Opposition has pledged to extend free child care for three and four-year-olds, but he is trying to pay for it using a concept of money that he has already used more than 10 times. It is just not good enough to face young parents with such false accounting, and I am confident that the Minister agrees. It is not good enough to say, “Yes, we’ll borrow more to fund it,” because that borrowing only comes back on the children who we might otherwise be trying to help.
I am pleased that the introduction of tax-free child care that the Minister has so passionately advocated will mean that parents get £1,200 towards each child’s child care costs in addition to both our extension of the hours of free child care and our cutting red tape for schools, so that they can offer more affordable care after school and in the holidays. Those are practical and affordable actions, and we must have this debate in that context. We have to take decisive action for the reasons that we have all tried to set out, but we have to do that by addressing the cost and quality of child care and by having respect for those who entrust us with the job of honest politics.
It is essential that the Government maximise the contribution that women can make to the economy, not because of political correctness but because it is an economic reality. Growth will get this country back to where it ought to be after Labour left it lying in a ditch. Such growth will come about only if we have women in the workplace doing their best for themselves and their family and gaining satisfaction from the careers that we would all like to see. We must remove barriers to the workplace, which is why I am here today to add my voice to the support for what the Government are doing to promote child care policies that help women get back into the workplace.
That leads me to yet another of the numbers that we might want to focus on in the debate. Yesterday, in the main Chamber, a couple of points were made about the number of women in work and the way we might look at the statistics. One statistic, which is important to use in today’s debate, is that almost 200,000 women in coupled families with dependent children have re-entered the workplace since 2011, compared with 185,000 between 1996 and 2011. Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal had to deal with the notion that a few years of achievement now are worth more than 13 years of non-achievement in the past, and that point stands on the same side of the argument.
Catherine McKinnell
Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that many of the women who are entering the work force are doing so in part-time jobs, although they probably need more hours to pay their bills, and on zero-hours contracts and poor wages, terms and conditions? Seven out of 10 women say they cannot go back to work, because the child care costs are so high that they deter them from doing so, while those who do go back are simply not earning enough to pay their bills.
Chloe Smith
I think that the hon. Lady knows all too well that we will deal with the point inside the policy only by tackling the cost of child care, and my hon. Friend the Minister has set out plans to do that. I think that the hon. Lady also knows all too well that we will tackle the far bigger point that sits outside this issue only by securing an economic recovery, and that is what I want to point my comments at on behalf of the taxpayers and families in my constituency.
Catherine McKinnell
I am interested to hear the hon. Lady’s economic arguments, but I must correct her on one thing. She suggested that the Labour party left the economy in the doldrums in 2010. In fact, the economy was growing in 2010, but we have had complete economic stagnation since. It would be more honest if she acknowledged that point before continuing.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. I am sure the hon. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) will want to get back to the subject of the debate, which is child care.
Chloe Smith
Mr Hood, I will be only too delighted to get back to the subject of child care.
The point on which I want to finish is about having honesty in politics for the families who we might wish to help. It is not honest to ignore the fact that Labour doubled the national debt or to try to spend the same amount 10 times.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Chloe Smith
I am terribly sorry, but I need to finish my comments, so that other Members can speak.
I want to finish on the point that false claims, scaremongering and, worst of all, false accounting do young families absolutely no good. Younger people—various polls and statistics show that this is demonstrably true—are turning away from traditional party politics. Some will become parents and seek to take care of their children, and it will do none of them any good whatever to hear the false numbers that are being put about in this debate. It will not help a single child, parent or citizen to regain faith in what politics is for if we cannot have a slightly more honest debate today.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak in this timely and important debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) on securing it. I appreciate that we had an opportunity to debate some of these issues yesterday, but it is incredibly useful to have an opportunity not only to expand on some of them, but to reinforce some of the points that were made and, in particular, to get some clarity from the Minister on issues that were left unclear at the end of that debate, certainly in my mind.
It would be right for me to declare an interest, as other hon. Members have done. I am the mother of two children aged six and four. Although they are of school age, they rely on child care, which supports my working hours and those of my husband. Obviously, I have an interest in securing good-quality child care at an affordable price for all my constituents, who are deeply concerned about this issue.
Hon. Members have drawn on a number of aspects in explaining why this is such an important debate, and we touched on a number of issues yesterday. Child care is important for the children, because of the pre-school support, confidence and education they get, which give them the right start in life. I have visited child care facilities across a range of areas in my constituency, and it is evident how vital that pre-school support is in ensuring children reaching school age do not start out disadvantaged compared with children from perhaps more economically fortunate backgrounds. All children should have that pre-school input, and the child care offer and the child care debate are crucial to ensuring that we see that equality across the board.
Child care is also crucial for women. I am therefore pleased we have such a great showing of male MPs in the debate, as we did yesterday. That is vital because this is increasingly an issue for fathers as well as mothers, and rightly so. The Labour Government introduced a lot of changes to ensure that we reach the goal of equality between men and women and on child care responsibilities. Ultimately, we know that we are not there yet, and child care is still very much an issue for mothers and women generally.
As a result of child care responsibilities, women are unable to stay in work, and they fall out of the workplace. Many choose not to work, and that should be supported, but we are talking about child care, so it is right to focus on those women who would like to stay in the workplace but are unable to do so. I mentioned the figures from a survey that Asda undertook, and I find them startling. It should prompt any Government to action to know that seven out of 10 mums say they cannot go back to work because the cost of child care makes it too expensive.
Tom Blenkinsop
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, which I raised in yesterday’s debate, about female unemployment. In May 2010, female unemployment in our region—the north-east—was 20,657. It is now 25,973. That is a 25.7% increase. What does my hon. Friend think is the main cause?
Catherine McKinnell
That is a deeply disturbing figure, and we know that women have borne the brunt of the cuts in public services. Many more women than men work in the public services, so they have suffered redundancy and unemployment as a consequence. We have not seen a matching increase in private sector employment for women. As we know, women have lost out in the jobs market as a result of many of the changes we have seen in the past three years.
Tom Blenkinsop
Does my hon. Friend think that the fact that we have had £30 billion less investment in small and medium-sized enterprises since this Government came to power in 2011 is a cause of the lack of employment in the private sector among not only women but men?
Catherine McKinnell
That is a deeply concerning statistic. I know the issue is close to my hon. Friend’s heart, and he is extremely passionate about having the case heard. On the other side of the coin, a lot of women who would like to work have fallen out of the workplace because child care costs are prohibitive. However, women have also suffered pregnancy discrimination, sex discrimination or maternity discrimination. One deeply concerning issue is the additional barriers the Government have put in the way of women who want to seek redress for such unfairness. I am surprised because members of the Government—particularly female ones—should be deeply concerned at additional barriers such as charges for going to a tribunal being put up for women seeking redress for such discrimination. I hope that the Government will listen and take that seriously, because it is nothing short of a scandal.
Bridget Phillipson
Is my hon. Friend concerned, as I am, about the fact that many families, in addition to dealing with the cost of child care, are responsible for the care of older relatives? That affects women in particular. They must try to combine looking after elderly parents or other relatives, when there is pressure on social care, with trying to make ends meet for their children. That is a great pressure at the moment.
Catherine McKinnell
Women have suffered a triple whammy. Many have suffered unemployment because of public service cuts. They are also dealing with the reduction in the availability of child care, and increasing costs because of increased demand. As well as that, they are picking up the pieces where public services can no longer provide support and must step back because of reductions in funding. It is often women who step into the breach. They must juggle their ability to provide family support of both kinds. Many women do that willingly, happily and lovingly, but as a society we must question whether that is the future we want, or whether we are taking a step back on equality by pushing more and more women who want to stay in work and progress economically back home and into caring roles. Women are still not equal to men in economic terms.
The issue that I raised yesterday was not just the quality of child care, which has been touched on today, but its availability. There has been much debate about child care figures and availability, but the number of places has reduced in the past three years, which is a big concern. The Government are making various promises of things to come, but whether they will be able to deliver is deeply in doubt when we consider what is looming on the horizon. When we consider how children’s centres and Sure Start centres are at risk at the moment, the Government cannot bury their head in the sand much longer.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I apologise for not being here earlier: I had a Committee meeting and could not get here in time.
I understand that figures show that 5.8 million women are working mothers and that their average child care costs are 22% of their wages. Does the hon. Lady feel that it should be a priority for the Government to address the issue, to keep women in their job and enable others to obtain employment?
Catherine McKinnell
The hon. Gentleman makes a passionate case and is right; it makes sense for equality, women and the individuals involved, but also for the economy. The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), is keen to stress the fact that the cost of child care is not a soft issue, but a key issue for the economy. It affects whether we get economic productivity or waste the resources of women who would choose to work, but are prevented from doing so or do not bring home enough money at the end of the month. I know many women working all the hours they can, whose earnings are taken up in child care costs to such an extent that they ask every week, or sometimes every day, “Is this actually worth it?” The cost of juggling caring responsibilities with work is a challenge in itself, even without the challenge of bringing home very little pay. Often there is a short-term crisis for a family for the sake of a long-term economic benefit for the individual, the family and the children. It is a key area and the Government should take it seriously.
I am concerned that many more Sure Start closures are looming than the 579 that have already happened. The Government dispute those figures, but their database of children’s centres shows that there are 3,053, while the official Department for Education figures in April 2010 showed that there were 3,632. Will the Minister clarify when she winds up—
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
I am happy to do so now.
Catherine McKinnell
I have a series of questions, so perhaps the Minister can answer them all.
Where have the missing 579 centres gone? There is an obligation on local authorities to keep the figures updated. According to the Government’s figures, in black and white, those centres have gone, and the Government’s denial that they ever existed is causing confusion. What assessment has the Minister made of the anticipated number of closures over the next two years? In Oxfordshire, for example, 37 may be closed, and in my local authority area the closure of a large number is being considered and all 20 are under review. Presumably such things are happening elsewhere in the country, and I wonder whether the Government have a handle on it.
Mr McFadden
Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue is not just the total number of Sure Starts? It is what they are doing. Many have stayed open but have had to cut back what they offer. The argument about numbers is important, but it is not the whole story. The diminished offer from some Sure Starts that have managed to stay open is part of it.
Catherine McKinnell
Perhaps the Minister can respond not only to my questions but to the issue outlined by my right hon. Friend.
Elizabeth Truss
I shall make the point about numbers again in my closing remarks, as I intended, but I am puzzled by Opposition comments because currently Sure Start provides 1% of child care places and schools provide 30%. Why have the Opposition not talked about places for under-fives in schools but about Sure Start centres, which provide far fewer places? It is a strange way to approach a debate about child care.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. Before the hon. Lady responds, I remind right hon. and hon. Members that I shall call the Front-Benchers at 3.40 pm at the latest, to give them 10 minutes each. I have one speaker left on my list who may want some time.
Catherine McKinnell
Thank you for that clarification, Mr Hood, and for your management of the debate.
I appreciate the Minister’s point, but the Government promise a roll-out of additional places for two-year-olds and I know for a fact that many schools do not have the capacity to provide pre-schooling places for three-year-olds at the moment, let alone for the two-year-olds to whom the Government aspire to give places. It would therefore seem logical for Sure Start to be among the places where child care places are provided. That is why I question the Government not only about the broader picture for Sure Start—including its important early intervention work and the fact that it is available and accessible for new mums and communities—but about the loss of child care places when Sure Start centres go.
Can the Minister also clarify the guidance on the provision of children’s centres published in April? It states that children’s centres and their services should be
“within reasonable reach of all families with young children”.
However, there seems to be no clarity on what “reasonable reach” means. What journey by public transport might be deemed reasonable? What are the reasonable changes a family would be expected to make? If they were travelling with a pram or buggy, which presumably they would be, given that young children are involved, is that reasonable? How frequent must a bus service be to be deemed reasonable? How much should it cost a young family to travel by public transport to a children’s centre? I would be grateful if the Minister provided some clarity on those issues, which would help to inform the debate around not only child care but Sure Start more widely.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
May I apologise, Mr Hood, for not being here at the beginning of the debate as I was in a delegated legislation Committee? I am sure, however, that my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) gave an excellent speech and I congratulate her on securing the debate. Such debates are little like buses: we do not have a debate on child care and then two come along at once. The quality of debate both yesterday and today reflects the quality of debate in the country. The issue is important and central to families up and down the land, both in the constituencies represented in the debates and in those not represented.
I want to begin with a statistic to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) has already alluded. It is the thing that has affected me the most over the past month. Ofsted has stated that five-year-olds from the least affluent backgrounds are 19 months behind five-year-olds from the most affluent backgrounds in development terms. That is a shocking statistic, and it alone should be a call to arms for all of us to roll up our sleeves and to put child care centre stage. The costs of child care should not be a barrier to addressing that inequality.
If I had a penny for every time I have heard Members of Parliament on both sides of the House refer to the need to close the inequality gap, I would be a very rich person. There is a theoretical commitment to doing something, but we need to turn that belief in principle into a belief in practice. Only through practical effects can we change the situation for those five-year-olds who become tomorrow’s adults and leaders. The hon. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith), for whom I have a lot of respect, appeared to say that we perhaps cannot afford to do the right thing, but the Ofsted statistic tells us that we cannot afford not to do the right thing. We need to find the finance, whatever the situation, to address the issue. It is absolutely crucial.
I have visited many nursery settings in my Scunthorpe constituency over the past month, and I was struck by the vast variety and diversity of those settings. As the Minister mentioned, many of them are nurseries attached to schools, which provide a very important part of that landscape. I visited Messingham farm nursery, which is a new business in my constituency that meets the needs of a particular community and does a fantastic job. As the name suggests, it is about not only child care, but also using animal care to provide a particular experience for young people. I also visited the Ark family centre, which is run in partnership with the Baptist Church and delivers very good nursery care. Finally, last week, I took advantage of what was laughingly called a “mini-recess” to go to the Ashby Sure Start children’s centre, which is a fantastic facility that was created as a result of the previous Government’s Sure Start initiative. It is transforming the lives of the children in an area of my constituency where such a service is most needed.
I am always impressed by the quality, professionalism and commitment of the people working with children in such settings and by the way in which they divide up their time based on specific skill sets to address the needs of children at different stages of development. At the Ashby children’s centre last week, I was shown the files in which each child’s progress is carefully measured. Interestingly, I was told that schools are now more interested in receiving that information and building on it. The transition to the next stage of education should therefore be more secure, which was perhaps not the case a few years ago. We can see how the investment in nursery education is making a real difference.
I want to refer to the recent concerns of the Children’s Society about tax-free child care replacing the employer-supported child care vouchers. The Minister will hopefully take this opportunity to address the society’s concerns, because it is clearly focused on children’s well-being. Parents on universal credit will not be eligible to receive tax-free child care. Instead, they will receive a component of universal credit up to 85% of child care costs. Working parents on the lowest incomes will receive help with up to 70% of costs. It seems odd to me and to the Children’s Society that working parents on the lowest incomes will get the lowest level of support. If its concern is accurate, I hope the Minister will address that point.
The Children’s Society is also concerned that the complexity of having two systems of child care support for working parents and issues around the threshold may cause the same sort of difficulties that many of us experienced in relation to the Child Support Agency. If the Government provide help with only 70% of child care costs to those on the lowest incomes, can they still guarantee that every hour of work will pay for those on universal credit if there is an increase in the tax threshold? There may be an unforeseen consequence that we would all want to avoid. Children’s charities, including the Children’s Society, have asked for 85% support for those on universal credit, and I hope that the Government will examine that and ensure that that is the case for all parents on universal credit.
I will end with some points of concern. The cost of nursery places has risen by 30% since the last general election, which is five times faster than pay. At the same time, the same families are seeing their budgets squeezed by the rise in energy prices and transport costs and by general inflation. The average bill for a part-time nursery place of 25 hours a week has gone up to £107, and parents working part-time on average wages would have to work from Monday to Thursday before they paid off their weekly child care costs.
There are 576 fewer Sure Start centres, with three being lost on average every week. The Minister and I might disagree about the numbers, but I think we agree that Sure Start centres have been closed and have had their functions changed, which is clearly evidenced by what people across the country tell us. There are 35,000 fewer child care places than at the time of the last election.
The Government’s initiative of offering places to disadvantaged two-year-olds is positive. It did have teething problems when it was initially rolled out due to a qualification around Ofsted reports, which are often five or six years old. Fortunately, in my area that problem has been overcome. However, I am sure the shadow Minister and the Minister will wish to address those issues of practicality to ensure that together we take the opportunity to do something about the 19-month difference, before it is too late.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I had hoped for my first outing as a Front-Bench spokesperson to be in this Chamber, but we had a similar debate in the main Chamber yesterday. I am hoping that today will be slightly less boisterous than some of our exchanges then.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) for securing this extremely important debate. I declare, as she did, an interest—in fact, our children play together at the same nursery, here in the House of Commons. Many Members present share such an interest, in that our children are in child care. Over the past few days, we have seen how important the issue is for many of our constituents, as a debate is now raging throughout the country.
For the record, the Labour party is proud of what we achieved on early years during our time in office, but there was still much to do when we left government. There is no silver bullet or panacea to resolve such difficult and complex issues. The point, however, is the direction of travel, which under the Labour Government was positive and in the right direction, but under this Government has turned back. Ensuring that we have good, affordable and flexible child care is not only critical to families and to closing some of those inequality gaps, but to the economy as a whole, as we have heard from Members today. That is why we need to do more about it.
Instead of repeating the arguments that we had yesterday, I want to take the opportunity to discuss further some of the issues that have been mentioned. We heard from my hon. Friend a cogent argument about the triple whammy facing families: rising costs, falling places and cuts to support.
Since 2010, the number of child care places has fallen by more than 35,000. As the Minister agreed yesterday, we now have 2,423 fewer childminders than in 2009, so places are going down under this Government. We had some debate about Labour’s record on childminders, but I want to put on the record at least once a quote from the chief executive of the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years, when she gave evidence to the Children and Families Bill Committee:
“The statistic…often…quoted…is not one we recognise in terms of the scale of downsizing of registered childminders in the period that the Minister talks about”—
when Labour was in government.
“Pre-Ofsted registration, childminders were managed by local authorities and registered locally”,
and,
“when Ofsted took over that registration, there was a clearout of a lot of data on individuals who were not practising childminders.”––[Official Report, Children and Families Public Bill Committee, 7 March 2013; c. 99, Q208.]
The Minister also asked why we were not discussing school nursery provision, but we are very much doing so. First, Labour policy is to extend nursery provision to three and four-year-olds for 15 hours a week, which is leading to school nurseries being able to offer that to parents. Members present today, such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), mentioned the provision of offers for three and four-year-olds in school nurseries. Our policy pledge is about extending that offer further still.
The figures that we were talking about are for childminders and child care places, but if the Minister wishes to take some credit for Labour’s policy for three and four-year-olds, I am happy for her to do so.
Elizabeth Truss
My specific point was that the 35,000 figure cited by the hon. Lady is only that from the Ofsted early years register; there are also nursery places on the schools register for Ofsted, which have not been counted in her numbers. The claim was that there are 1.3 million child care places, but there are actually 2 million, because the two registers were not added together by the Opposition; Labour used only one of the registers in its analysis, so its numbers are wrong.
Lucy Powell
I do not want to get into a stats war with the Minister, but the point is that families up and down this country know that it is getting harder and harder to find childminders and quality early-years provision. As the Minister knows, there is also massively increased demand: the birth rate has been rising by more than 125,000 year on year while the Government have been in office. The sector is therefore facing significantly increased demand as well.
On Sure Start, my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) rightly asked the Minister about the figures. The Department for Education’s own press release from June 2010 stated that there were 3,621 Sure Start centres; recently, the Directgov website showed that there were only 3,053. That is where our figures come from—they are the Minister’s own figures. The point being made today, however, is that the issue is not only about the numbers, but about the services being offered, because many Sure Start centres are being downgraded.
I do not want to confuse matters, because there are two separate issues: Sure Start centres and their provision for early-years intervention work; and Sure Start and child care provision. The Policy Exchange paper showed that, in the poorest areas, child care provision is of the poorest quality—that is why the Sure Start provision of child care is of particular importance. It has focused on some of the most deprived areas, where child care quality is at its worst. That is where it is most needed. We still need Sure Start centres that are able to provide child care.
On the model more broadly, the early intervention grant, which provides the funding for children’s centres, will be halved between 2010 and 2015, going from £3 billion a year to £1.5 billion a year. That is what is having such an impact on the services that Sure Start centres are able to provide to new mums. Those centres play a critical role.
I asked a further question about the Sure Start model yesterday, which I hope the Minister can answer today. It was about another critical component of delivering that essential support for new mums—the role of health visitors. The Prime Minister said before the election that we would have 4,200 new health visitors by 2015. Will the Minister update us today on what progress has been made?
I will skip past some of my other points, but I will repeat the request for an answer to the questions asked by my hon. Friends the Members for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) and for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) about universal credit and its impact on whether the lowest-income families can meet child care costs. Will the Minister also answer those questions?
The Government response seems to have been to do little in their time in office—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but the Minister’s own flagship policy on child care ratios has now been resoundingly dumped by her colleague; we welcome the extension of the free offer to two-year-olds, but delivery problems remain; and childminder agencies are an unknown quantity and an experiment. We will see how they pan out.
The Government’s main flagship policy now seems to be the tax-free child care policy, but that is too little, too late. The scheme is not coming in until the autumn of 2015, and the people who will benefit most from it will be the highest paid—the more people spend on child care and the more they earn, the more they will benefit. It will do absolutely nothing about cost. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the scheme—putting so much into the system on the demand side, rather than on the supply side—will lead to costs going up further still. I hope for reassurance from the Minister on that today.
Labour has new policies to extend the three and four-year-old offer from 15 to 25 hours a week and around guaranteeing wrap-around care—welcome policies that are a step in the right direction and will help families to meet the child care crunch that they face. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East so eloquently put it, such policies are only steps in the right direction—as a country, we face a big challenge, and we will need bigger and bolder policies to address it. Under this Government, we are going in the wrong direction.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Elizabeth Truss)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) on securing today’s debate. I associate myself very much with the comments made by all parents here today; I am the proud mother of two daughters. We need more parents representing people in the House. I am a great supporter of the changes that we have made to parliamentary hours, but we could do more to make the House of Commons a parent-friendly place. It is important to have representatives who are also mothers or fathers.
I am afraid that I cannot agree, however, with the hon. Lady’s analysis of the Government’s policies or indeed of the previous Government’s record. As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) pointed out, that Government left the biggest budget deficit of any major economy, and as a result we were borrowing £1 for every £4 that we spent. In those circumstances, the support that the Government have given to parents and families is excellent. We have increased total spending on child care and early-years education: it was almost £5 billion but will be over £6 billion. We have increased the number of hours of free early-years education for three and four-year-olds from 12.5 hours to 15 hours a week, which is worth £400 per child for parents. We have extended support to two-year-olds, and tax-free child care, available from 2015, will be worth up to £1,200 per child. That provision is flexible between the ages of nought and five so parents can spend the allowance in the way that they see fit. We are providing support to families in tough times.
I want to comment briefly on the claims made about child care places. There is a genuine issue here, and we need to be clear about the figures. There are two different registers upon which child care places are based under Ofsted. The most accurate figures can be found in the Department for Education early-years providers survey from 2011—that is the most recent of those surveys, which are biennial. I am concerned that the Opposition’s figures do not include the 800,000 places in school nurseries. In places such as London, about 50% of all places are based in schools. As Baroness Morgan, an Opposition peer, has pointed out, school provision gives a strong basis for future progression and avoids some of the issues with transition that Opposition Members have raised. I would like to point out that our survey shows that over 200,000 places are available across the country. It is wrong to say that there is a shortage of places. Of course, I agree that we need to do more work on supply and quality.
Elizabeth Truss
I am sorry, but I will not be able to take interventions at the moment because I want to try to answer all the many questions hon. Members have raised.
Labour claims that costs have risen by 30% since the Government took office. The study that was mentioned also suggested that costs had risen by 50% under the previous Labour Government. Child care costs have been rising year on year, but other recent studies suggest that those costs are now stabilising and have been flat in real terms for the past two years. Across the political spectrum, we need to analyse why we put the same amount of money into our child care system as countries such as France and Germany but parents in those countries pay a lot less—they pay about half the costs that parents here pay. It is not just about the money that the Government are putting in; it is about the efficiency of provision, competition in the child care market and how that market works. I have spent a lot of time thinking about that as a Minister, and some of my plans are aimed at addressing those specific issues.
Elizabeth Truss
I will briefly, but I want to try to answer all the questions raised.
Lucy Powell
I appreciate that the Minister is being generous in giving way. On the basis of the analysis that she has just given, how does she think that giving a tax-free child care offer will address the costs?
Elizabeth Truss
That offer will help parents to pay towards the costs of child care. Our reforms to encourage more childminders, more school-based care and more private and voluntary nurseries are aimed at expanding supply. Those two policies go hand in hand.
The hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South is not right in her analysis that after-school clubs have declined. In fact, our most recent study shows that they have increased by 5%. One of the issues with the extended schools policy that Labour had before the election was that schools could simply put a link to a child care provider on their website, or something like that, and that would count as providing an extended school place; the school had ticked the box, but there was not really any all-day provision. We are working on aligning requirements during the school day and afterwards, as well as making it easier for schools to collaborate with outside providers, so that they can provide real care on the school site.
It is important that schools are encouraged to use their assets better. It helps children to learn more and supports working parents. We are working hard to encourage more schools to do that. I am pleased to say that, for example, the Harris academy chain has agreed that all its new primary schools will have a school day of 8 am to 6 pm. We need to make provision in a sustainable way that enables schools to mix and match with their school day, so that children have extra learning and extra opportunities for creativity, sports and after-school activities. We are keen to encourage that approach.
A lot of claims have been made about children’s centres. As I said in the debate in the House yesterday, the figures on the Department for Education website are about the management structures of children’s centres. There have been only 45 outright closures. A lot of management structures have been merged but with the centres remaining open. In fact, a record number of parents are using children’s centres—over 1 million this year. That shows the success of those centres.
I wanted to respond briefly to the excellent comments that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the hon. Members for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) all made about the importance of quality in early-years provision. I could not agree more. We need more highly qualified people in that area. That is why we have developed the early-years educator qualification and are offering bursaries this year for early-years educators—that is, young people with good qualifications who wish to enter the professions of child care and early-years education. We have also matched the entry requirements for early-years teachers to those for teachers. This year we have seen an increase of 25% in registrations on our early-years teacher course because of the higher profile that it has had. That will encourage more good people into early-years education.
This year, we have also started Teach First for early-years provision. For the first time, we have high-quality graduates going into the Teach First programme and working with three and four-year-olds. Some will be working with two-year-olds as well, as those places are rolled out in schools. For example, starting in January, the Oasis academy in Hadley is offering 40 places for two-year-olds with a Teach First early-years teacher. Exciting things are happening in schools to get highly qualified people working with our youngest children. Of course, that is being done in an age-appropriate way; when I visited the class of two-year-olds based there already, they were having their feet painted then running around, and doing other things like that. It is certainly not about two-year-olds studying trigonometry. Some of Baroness Morgan’s comments on the matter have been misinterpreted: the aim is to develop early language skills.
The Opposition have proposals on child care places for three and four-year-olds. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North covered those proposals well when she said that the Opposition have already spent the bank levy 11 times. There is no magic money tree for policies such as that one. We have to make sure that we use our existing assets better. We are using schools better and giving new planning freedoms, so that shops and offices can be converted into new nurseries.
We also particularly want to see a revival in the number of childminders. I agree with the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) that we need more high-quality childminders. One issue is that new people have not been joining the childminding profession and the average age within it is gradually rising. We need good ways to attract new people into childminding. Childminding agencies are one of the ways in which we will be able to do that. The hon. Lady will be interested to hear that we are working on involving children’s centres in our attempts to increase childminder numbers, because we think those centres can help to provide a network and training for childminders. We must also make sure that we use nursery facilities and school nursery facilities better.
The hon. Member for Scunthorpe asked a lot of questions about universal credit. I will reply in writing to him, as I do not think I will be able to answer them in the 15 seconds I have left to speak. But there is a lot of common ground in this debate, and I am happy to share more of the figures and details on this matter with the Opposition to make sure that we are debating on the same terms.
Gay-to-straight Conversion Therapy
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure, Mr Hood, to serve under your chairmanship. I am raising this debate as part of an ongoing discussion on gay-to-straight conversion therapy, and I refer to my early-day motion, which attracted 52 signatures; the petition presented to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson); and the private Member’s Bill, the Counsellors and Psychotherapists (Regulation) Bill, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies).
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I want to put on record the enormously helpful work of Tom Stevens and Colin Levitt, who live in Hull and were behind the petition that was presented to Parliament because they felt strongly about the matter and decided something had to be done.
Sandra Osborne
I, too, have reason to be grateful to those people.
I want to place on the record the fact that several hon. Members indicated that they wanted to attend this debate but had other commitments.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
As my hon. Friend was so kind as to mention my Bill, does she agree that our joint ambition to get rid of gay-to-straight conversion therapy needs to be embraced in a regulatory context so that all psychotherapists are regulated, which they are not at present?
Sandra Osborne
I agree, and I will go into that further. Conversion or reparative therapy is the attempt by individuals, often posing as professionals, to alter the sexuality of lesbian, gay or bisexual patients. Virtually every major national and international professional organisation has condemned the practice as ineffective and potentially extremely harmful to patients.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
I want to place on the record the fact that I am proud to represent some 6,000 gay men in my constituency, and that conversion of any sort is unacceptable in this day and age.
Sandra Osborne
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.
The prevalence of conversion therapy in Britain has been the subject of recent interest in Parliament. Hon. Members will have received a recent communiqué from the pro-conversion group, Core Issues, calling on us not to support the private Member’s Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West on the regulation of counsellors and psychotherapists. The people in Core Issues are the very same who tried and, fortunately, failed to put up posters on London buses advertising conversion therapy. On 30 January, alongside Christian Concern, they hosted a debate on conversion therapy in a Committee Room of this House. One of the speakers at that debate, Canadian psychiatrist Dr Joseph Berger, is on the record as advocating the bullying of cross-dressing children in schools.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady agree that such courses are particularly dangerous for young people who are struggling with their sexuality? When I was a teenager, I had great difficulty reconciling who I was. The variability of those courses places an enormous burden on young people who are already frightened about the consequences of being open about who they are.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. I remind hon. Members that this is a 30-minute debate, and interventions should be brief to allow the hon. Member whose debate it is to speak.
Sandra Osborne
Thank you, Mr Hood.
I want to focus on the main aspects of the problem of conversion therapy, and to debunk three common myths: first, that conversion therapy is something that happens only in America; secondly, that conversion therapy is carried out only by religious fundamentalists operating outside professional channels; thirdly, that the debate about conversion therapy is a simplistic one between allowing people freely to choose conversion therapy and infringing people’s personal choices. On the contrary, I hope to show that conversion therapy is a real and present danger in Britain, and that instead of being a problem just among religious fundamentalists, it is an issue for the national health service and the professional sector. This is not a simplistic debate about freedom to choose. If lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community patients are coaxed into undertaking therapy by peer pressure or referred to conversion therapists after approaching professionals, that is hardly free choice.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady agree that until now the Department of Health has been weak on the matter? Instead of condoning it, it should ban the voodoo medicine and conversion therapy.
Sandra Osborne
I agree with the hon. Gentleman and I hope to get some answers from the Minister.
Conversion therapy used to be a much greater and more systemic problem in Britain than it is today. In the 1950s and ’60s, LGBT patients were routinely forwarded by teachers, GPs and, as in the case of Alan Turing, criminal courts to NHS so-called specialists in sexual orientation treatment. During that period, all branches of psychology from the cognitive to the behavioural and the psychodynamic had their own cruel and unpalatable methods of dealing with same-sex attraction.
The watershed moment came when homosexuality was removed from the American “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders” in 1973. However, simply changing the rules does not change an entire system overnight. Conversion therapy persisted and psychotherapy remains an unregulated profession in Britain. Anyone in the country can set up as a psychotherapist without being part of a professional body, and there are professionals practising in the NHS and therapy sectors who received their training well before homosexuality ceased to be classed a mental illness. Even the new intake of therapists is a cause for concern.
In 2008, a survey of 226 British psychology undergraduates was published in the Journal of Homosexuality and found that only 66% agreed with an equal age of consent. That is the context in which we should view the extent of conversion therapy in Britain. In a 2009 survey of more than 1,300 accredited mental health professionals, nearly 300 willingly admitted to having attempted to change at least one patient’s sexuality. Even more shocking, the therapists admitted that some 35% of the patients they treated were referred to them for treatment by GPs, and 40% were treated inside an NHS practice.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is very serious that the issue is so widespread among GPs and other professionals, and that we must tackle that when regulating psychotherapy and the health professionals who refer people?
Sandra Osborne
The issue is serious and it is not recognised to the extent it should be, which is one reason why I am so pleased that we are having this debate.
In 2010, Patrick Strudwick of The Independent carried out an undercover investigation. One psychotherapist who attempted to “cure” him, Lesley Pilkington, readily admitted that most of her clients were referred to her from her local GP’s surgery. Many professionals receive little training in what to do when a gay person approaches them expressing uneasiness about their sexuality. There is legitimate concern that some professionals in the NHS and elsewhere are referring LGBT patients to conversion therapists.
Addressing the problem of conversion therapy in Britain requires a range of measures. In the therapeutic profession, affirmative therapy, which begins from the premise that no efforts should be made to change sexuality and that homosexuality is perfectly normal, should be promoted as the appropriate, healthy way of assisting LGBT patients who feel uneasy about their sexuality. To promote this therapy, we must ensure that therapists and students are properly trained in LGBT-friendly mental health provision.
The public sector equality duty mandates the public sector to address inequality and is vital to drive forward reform. That is why recent Government calls to review the duty are particularly concerning. It is important to consider the role that the public sector equality duty can play in improving the quality of care for LGBT patients. What initiatives has the Department of Health supported from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, for example, and from non-governmental organisations such as Stonewall, to identify and promote good practice in relation to the public sector equality duty and LGBT patients? We know that when public bodies are proactive, it can make a real difference.
We need to explore the regulation of psychotherapy. At the very least, it has to become a protected profession in which nobody can legally call themselves a psychotherapist without being accredited by a professional body. We also need to ensure that professional bodies have an appropriate complaints procedure, so that LGBT patients who undergo conversion therapy can achieve justice. Patrick Strudwick, to whom I referred, has raised concerns about the complex bureaucratic process that he had to go through to ensure that the conversion therapist who treated him was struck off her professional body.
We need to ensure that psychotherapists who are not members of those professional bodies that explicitly have a position against conversion therapy are not commissioned by the NHS. Will the Minister tell us whether groups without professional affiliations are commissioned by the NHS for services? What about the advertising to which I referred earlier? A New York Times advert in the ’90s for conversion therapy is credited with causing a revival in the practice. That is why restricting advertisements for conversion therapies is vital and should be explored. What is the Minister’s view on that?
At the very least, the Government must force practitioner full disclosure, which was advocated as the desired alternative to the model of Health Professions Council regulation in the Maresfield report of 2009, and involves
“the establishment of an independent body to administer a register of therapists, with the statutory requirement that anyone practising a therapy supply full details of training and professional history.”
The Government’s regulatory model for psychotherapy falls far short of PFD. Why?
Finally, I want to raise the question of the role of the law in tackling the practice of conversion therapy. The Government could opt to ban conversion therapy for all under-18s and go further with an all-out ban for all age groups, as happens in other countries.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on the measures that she has outlined and support her fully. Is it not the case that in 21st-century Britain, no lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual individual should be accessing this kind of voodoo psychology? Instead, we should provide services that help to give confidence and which support them in discovering their sexuality and about themselves, rather than making them feel more ashamed about it.
Sandra Osborne
I totally agree, and thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. In addition to a ban, we must go further in the training of professionals who are dealing with LGBT patients and provide friendly public service provision.
Other than a solitary remark from the Government that they do “not condone” conversion therapy, made in response to a written question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North, the Government have said nothing about their views on conversion therapy. I look forward to the contribution of other Members and, in particular, to the Minister’s reply on the issues that I have raised.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
I have received a letter from the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) requesting permission to speak in the debate. She assures me that she has had the agreement of the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), and the Minister has told me that he agrees. To be fair to the Minister, he has to have the same time as the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock had in opening the debate, so I ask the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West to take only a few minutes, which will hopefully leave time for the Minister.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) on securing the debate, and on her powerful speech setting out the problem that we are hoping the Government can solve. I thank her, the Chair and the Minister for allowing me and other hon. Members to make small contributions to the debate.
I should also pay tribute to the many Members on both sides who have campaigned on the issue, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) for his excellent private Member’s Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who did a national petition on the matter.
This debate comes during an important week for the LGBT community. On Monday, we celebrated the 10th anniversary of the abolition of the wretched section 28, and today is the annual transgender day of remembrance, when we remember the thousands of transgender people across the world who have paid the ultimate price, simply for seeking to be themselves. Those men and women have lost their lives at the hands of hate-filled zealots, because they had the courage to be who they wanted to be.
Pushing conversion therapy on people who are homosexual might not be on the same level as physical attacks on a member of the LGBT community, but it is certainly part of the wider problem of discrimination against them. That said, the psychological harm that medical professionals have recognised as a side effect of such attempts to change or tone down sexuality could well lead to the same end result.
Let us be absolutely clear: allowing the continuation of so-called therapists offering gay cures is, first, saying that being gay is problem that needs to be cured, and secondly, that it can be cured. Being gay is not an affliction. The only higher power that I defer to on the matter is the World Health Organisation, which has categorically confirmed that fact. Being gay cannot be cured any more than any other aspect of someone’s personality can be changed without doing that person serious damage.
What we want from the Government is similarly clear. The action taken last year by the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, and in 2010 by the UK Council for Psychotherapy, is welcome. However, they cannot solve the problems themselves if the people they strike off their registers can still legally continue to call themselves therapists.
We need a system to ensure that counsellors and therapists are properly accountable. A statutory register has been put forward in the past as a solution to the problem, and in the absence of any better ideas, I still think that that is the way to go. However, I would be grateful for any other solution that the Minister can put forward that would have the same effect.
While such a system is set up, no doctor practising in this country—and certainly no doctor paid by our NHS—should be sending any of their patients to conversion therapy. Even if that patient begs to be referred, doctors swear an oath to do no harm, not to do whatever their patient asks them to do. We know that conversion therapy is harmful and doctors should know that too. We also know that the majority of people who request conversion therapy do so because of pressure or abuse from family or peers—
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
Thank you, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) on securing the debate and thank the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for her contribution, which I was pleased to hear as well. I found myself agreeing with the vast bulk of what has been said and with the interventions that have been made—in fact, I agreed with everything that has been said.
Personally, I find the practice utterly abhorrent and it has no place in a modern society. That is my personal view, and many of the questions that have been asked are questions that I have asked officials about the powers that might be available. If hon. Members would welcome it, I would be very happy to meet with all of them or a group of them to discuss the matter further. That is an open offer, which I make genuinely.
The Government have a proud record of supporting the rights of lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Most recently, we witnessed and welcomed the enactment of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013. Our support for the legislation demonstrates absolutely our belief that extending the right to marry to lesbians and gay men is part of recognising that loving and committed relationships and families in modern Britain come in all shapes and sizes and should be celebrated.
Sandra Osborne
Is the Minister aware that today in the Scottish Parliament the same-sex marriage Bill is being introduced? Does he not think that that is ironic, given that we are discussing this matter?
Norman Lamb
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, and I note her point. Being lesbian, gay or bisexual is not an illness—it is sad that we need to state that, but it needs to be stated. It is not an illness to be treated or cured. Way back in 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its diagnostic glossary of mental disorders. Thankfully, the international classification of diseases produced by the World Health Organisation eventually followed suit in 1992; there was quite a long delay before that happened. Therefore, we are concerned about the issue of so-called gay-to-straight conversion therapy.
The Department of Health has received 15 or so letters in the past few months about the issue. All but one of those letters have been supportive of gay people and against the notion of gay-to-straight conversion therapy. That surely reflects the fact that most people in society today are far more relaxed and understanding about people’s sexuality than they ever were in the past.
We are not aware that the NHS commissions this type of therapy. It is completely inappropriate for any GP to be referring a patient for such a thing. It is unacceptable that that should happen through someone working in our national health service.
Geraint Davies
Is the Minister aware that the number of people who go to psychotherapists has tripled under this Government to 1 million? Given that number and given that we have heard evidence about people being referred by GPs, is it not now high time for regulation to stop abuse and potential abuse?
Norman Lamb
I will come to that. I do not think that the fact that numbers have increased can be blamed on this Government.
We are not aware that the NHS commissions this type of therapy. In my replies to correspondence, I have confirmed that the Department of Health does not recommend the use of conversion therapy—I have made clear today my personal view on that—and it is not a National Institute for Health and Care Excellence-recommended treatment. That is self-evident. Furthermore, the main national professional associations for psycho- therapy have declared that they regard conversion therapy as wrong.
In February 2010, the UK Council for Psychotherapy said:
“UKCP does not consider homosexuality or bisexuality, or transsexual and transgendered states, to be pathologies, mental disorders or indicative of developmental arrest. These are not symptoms to be treated by psychotherapists, in the sense of attempting to change or remove them.
It follows”—
this is very important—
“that no responsible psychotherapist will attempt to ‘convert’ a client from homosexuality to heterosexuality”.
Similarly, in September 2012, the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy set out the following:
“The…Association…is dedicated to social diversity, equality and inclusivity of treatment without discrimination of any kind. BACP opposes any psychological treatment such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality is a mental disorder, or based on the premise that the client/patient should change his/her sexuality.”
In January 2013, the British Psychological Society published a position statement that opposed any psychological, psychotherapeutic or counselling treatments or interventions that view same-sex sexual orientations as diagnosable illnesses. It declared:
“This includes freedom from harassment or discrimination in any sphere, and a right to protection from therapies that are potentially damaging”—
that point was made by hon. Members—
“particularly those that purport to change or ‘convert’ sexual orientation.”
This issue is clearly causing a great deal of concern in the House, and rightly so. The hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, as well as sponsoring this important debate, tabled an early-day motion in June. It called on the Government to take steps to ban gay conversion therapy and to investigate NHS links to conversion therapists. Several hon. Members present have referred to that motion and put their names to it.
The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) tabled a second early-day motion, calling on the Government to regulate counsellors and psychotherapists. There have also been a number of parliamentary questions on the issue. As hon. Members will know, the hon. Member for Swansea West has also introduced a private Member’s Bill seeking regulation of therapists. That is scheduled for Second Reading this Friday.
The Government have already said that there are no plans at this stage to introduce statutory regulation of psychotherapists. We do not believe that regulation would necessarily prevent this type of counselling in any case, as it would not depend on the type of therapy offered.
The Command Paper entitled “Enabling Excellence: Autonomy and Accountability for Healthcare Workers, Social Workers and Social Care Workers”, which we published in February 2011, sets out the Government’s vision for the future of work force regulation. That paper makes clear our continuing view that, although statutory regulation is sometimes necessary, it is not always the most proportionate or effective means of assuring the safe and effective care of patients or social care service users. That is why we provided powers to the Professional Standards Authority for Health and Social Care in the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
The Professional Standards Authority oversees the work of the health care profession regulators, including the Health and Care Professions Council. Those powers facilitated the establishment of voluntary registers for unregulated health care professionals and health care workers in the UK, social care workers in England and certain students.
The accredited voluntary registration scheme to which I am referring is not a form of regulation, nor is the PSA a regulator. To be accredited, organisations must provide evidence to the PSA that they are well run and they require registrants to meet high standards of personal behaviour, technical competence and, where relevant, business practice, but the scheme does not endorse any particular therapy as effective and it makes it clear that accreditation does not imply that it has done so. However, organisations seeking to be accredited can set their own rules about what therapies their members can or cannot offer.
As accredited voluntary registration appears to be gaining momentum and is proportionate to the risk, we believe that statutory regulation would not be appropriate and the costs to registrants or the taxpayer could not be justified. This is not to say that we are ruling out statutory regulation for this group for ever. We will continue to assess the need for it. I give an absolute assurance about that.
This is not to say that lesbians, gay men and bisexual people cannot seek counselling or therapy because they are distressed about a particular aspect of their sexuality—that is very important—or that a therapist should not try to help their patient with whatever is causing them distress, which may involve helping them to come to terms with their sexuality, family arguments over their sexuality, or hostility from other people. Supporting people through aspects of their lives that are difficult or challenging is a large part of what therapists do. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) made that point in his intervention.
We want to minimise the risk that lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who seek counselling about their sexuality will face therapists attempting to change their sexual orientation because the therapist considers that being gay is wrong. That, of course, is completely unacceptable. That is why Department of Health officials last week met representatives from the UK Council for Psychotherapy to discuss a way forward on this important and sensitive issue. Officials will work in partnership with the council in the following ways.
First, the UK Council for Psychotherapy has agreed to draft, in consultation with the other relevant professional bodies, a public statement on conversion therapy that provides information and outlines the views held by those organisations. That is incredibly important. Once produced, that statement will be widely publicised and placed on relevant websites to ensure that individuals seeking a counsellor or therapist will be aware of those bodies’ views on gay conversion therapy.
Secondly, the Department of Health will host a round-table event in the spring to which it will invite relevant individuals and organisations in order to discuss ways to achieve greater quality and consistency across the profession in general, as well as on this specific issue. Thirdly, and subject to the progress of the private Member’s Bill, the Department will consider writing to statutory regulators, setting out key principles, to be agreed with the professional bodies.
In addition, although we are not aware of such therapies being commissioned by the NHS, my officials will explore with NHS England what actions it can take to ensure that clinical commissioning groups are not commissioning them locally. That is one of the issues that I am happy to discuss with hon. Members. I totally agree that it is not something that public money should have anything to do with.
I hope that I have assured those who have spoken passionately and persuasively in today’s debate that the Government are listening and taking action. I repeat my offer to meet hon. Members. We have a lot to be proud of. The UK is once again recognised as No. 1 in Europe on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender equality by the International Lesbian and Gay Association, and we continue to make great strides forward on equality. I hope that that reassures hon. Members both that this Government are strongly committed to advancing lesbian, gay and bisexual equality and that we are taking the issue of gay conversion therapy extremely seriously.
South Worcestershire Development Plan
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I start by declaring that I have an interest in the South Worcestershire development plan, because I am fortunate enough to be a home owner in the beautiful Malvern Hills district. On 24 October, in this Chamber, I discussed the matter with the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who has responsibility for planning. There were some unanswered questions on that occasion, and since then we have had an initial opinion from the inspector, hence my request for today’s debate.
Planning is in a much better place than it was under the top-down regional spatial strategies of the previous Government. I fully support the need to build new homes to meet the pent-up demand for property in south Worcestershire, which has resulted in an average house sale price of £224,500 in the past quarter—well above the national average for affordability. I also appreciate the importance of house building for jobs and growth in the construction industry, which is only now recovering from the economic shocks inflicted on the country by the previous Government.
In south Worcestershire, our three local councils—Worcester city council, Malvern Hills district council and Wychavon district council, which my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for planning visited recently—have been working in partnership for seven years to develop an ambitious and sound local plan for housing growth. After the 2010 election, and in light of the planned revocation of the west midlands regional spatial strategy in the coalition agreement, they immediately and presciently commissioned expert projections of local population growth. In so doing, they perhaps got a head start on other councils, and their evidence base is fresh and up to date.
All three local councils democratically agreed the plan last December. Although it caused much controversy at the time, one of the factors that encouraged councillors to vote in favour of the plan was that it would allow them to secure a plan-led system, which would provide certainty on the amount and location of development until 2030. The plan was submitted for examination in public on 28 May, and on 28 October the inspector issued his interim thoughts about stage 1 of the inspection.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate, to which she has already made a strong introduction. One of the welcome things from the inspector’s report was the support for the job numbers that were being targeted in the South Worcestershire development plan. Does she agree that it is vital for us to be able to take the plan forward to provide the local jobs and growth that our county badly needs?
Harriett Baldwin
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. The plan is so ambitious for jobs and growth in south Worcestershire that we even had some complaints from Birmingham city council. It is a proactive and positive plan for growth in our area.
The inspector recognises in his initial assessment that the legal duty of the councils to co-operate has been met. He recognises that economic forecasting is notoriously difficult—some of us might say that it was impossible—and that none of the other six analyses of housing need presented to the examination by the development industry provides a sufficiently firm basis on which to derive an overall housing requirement for the plan period.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does she agree that the plan must be adopted as soon as possible to stop speculative developments, such as that in Hanbury in my constituency, being put in to our planning authorities? Such developments can cost councils a great deal of money in appeal costs.
Harriett Baldwin
I am not familiar with the details of the Hanbury proposals, but I know that there is no stronger champion of the interests of Hanbury residents than my hon. Friend. She seems to be in complete agreement with the gist of my speech.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
I join in the accolades to my hon. Friend on this important debate. On the subject of speed and speculative development, which my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) rightly raised, is it not crucial for the plan to be delivered as quickly as possible? It is an ambitious plan for growth, but delay is destroying faith in local democracy because councils appear to find speculative development, in places where it is not appropriate, to be irresistible. Speed is of the essence in getting the plan adopted.
Harriett Baldwin
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point about the importance of localism and local democracy, and I completely agree with him. The plan has been locally agreed, not set down from on high. He also makes the point that the protracted appeal period is slowing down growth and construction in our constituencies and that much-needed housing is not being built as a result.
The inspector has effectively rejected all seven of the econometric methodologies presented to him, which surely demonstrates a significant flaw in the process. Across the country, there are disagreements over the amount of development required to meet needs, and such differences of opinion concerning circumstances many years in the future are wasting very scarce resources.
The test should be that the plans and projections are competent, not that they are perfect. We do not possess perfect foresight; if we did, we would all be able to retire as billionaires tomorrow, because we would know exactly what tomorrow’s closing stock prices would be. Particularly when there is opportunity for a revision during the plan period, can we agree that in a time of constrained resources it is inequitable to place such a high evidential and process bar on councils, and that to do so is a disproportionate use of resources?
The plan-making system does not appear to recognise efficiency of process to minimise the impact on the taxpayer. Can the Minister issue clear guidance on the methodology that should be used to calculate housing needs, so that other councils do not suffer the same delay and costs as the south Worcestershire authorities have?
The inspector highlights the difficulties of economic forecasting, particularly beyond 2021. He makes a range of helpful technical points about past under-supply, affordable housing provision, windfall provision, non-delivery allowances, phasing and buffers. He discusses bringing empty housing back into use and whether C2 extra care provision should count towards a council’s housing supply. On that point, the provision of extra care to include C2 accommodation is a key priority in our area, and we are keen to attract such development. If the housing allocation in the plan were x thousand, and y% of the units were for C2 extra care, will the Minister confirm that that would meet housing need and would not be considered as double counting?
On Monday this week, I learned that the three south Worcestershire councils have published a timetable for the additional technical work requested, which will take until the end of January 2014. The inspector has decided “in the interests of natural justice”, as he puts it, that further hearing sessions will be required and that the earliest that they could start would be the week commencing March 10 2014. Only once the inspector has reached his conclusions on stage 1 will he be able to give details of the time scales for stage 2. It sounds as though the process might easily run until the end of 2014. Frankly, world war two took less time than getting through the bureaucracy and red tape that surrounds the local plan.
To make matters worse, all that bureaucracy and red tape is strangling housing growth in the area. Because the plan has not been agreed, developers are submitting speculative planning applications in areas that are not in the plan, and applications are being determined simply on a first come, first served basis, despite the potential of other, more favourable sites to meet local housing need. That leads not to the house building that we want to see, but to a long series of legal disputes between developers and the council. When such appeals occur, it appears to be for each planning inspector to decide how much weight should be given to the emerging plan and how much to the old—we thought defunct—regional spatial strategy.
For example, a planning inspector referring to an appeal about Abberley common in the Malvern hills said on only 18 October:
“The policies within the SWDP carry some weight given its reasonably advanced stage of preparation. Nonetheless, there are a number of outstanding objections to its strategy for the delivery of housing, including the overall housing requirements. These will be considered at the examination which will determine whether the approach in the SWDP is sound, or whether an alternative housing strategy should be adopted. For this reason, having regard to the guidance within the Framework I attribute the housing targets within the SWDP limited weight. I consider this approach to be consistent with the ‘Axminster decision’ referred to by the Council where the Court found that although the emerging plan was a material consideration, the weight to be accorded to it was a matter for the decision-maker.”
Please can the Minister issue guidance that an emerging plan such as ours, where the disagreements are mainly about housing projections in 10 years’ time, should be given almost full weight today? If not, why not?
Peter Luff
I strongly endorse what my hon. Friend says. Is she as concerned as I am that developers are building up land banks with planning permission they would never normally get? They are not building, but just land banking and trading among themselves, making a fat profit for developers, without building a single house in Worcestershire.
Harriett Baldwin
My hon. Friend speaks passionately of our desire to see home building start according to our democratically agreed local plan, which provides a sound basis for the next few years’ growth and the development of the south Worcestershire area. Clearly, some minor tweaks need to be made—in particular, to the forecasts affecting housing numbers between 2020 and 2030—but our local councils are keen to enable local growth without unnecessary delay. Why can we not proceed on the basis of the emerging plan, while simultaneously making tweaks to distant years, especially as the councils are planning to review progress in 2019?
Turning now to neighbourhood planning, may I ask the Minister for his thoughts on how we as MPs can best support emerging neighbourhood plans? I love neighbourhood planning. It is an excellent way to give power to local people, to bring back an organic approach to planning and to reduce the need for vast swathes of land to be swallowed up by urban extensions.
Mr Robin Walker
My hon. Friend brings up a key element. Proper neighbourhood planning will allow us to protect the green spaces around places such as St Peter the Great and Battenhall in Worcester, which are valued by local people, while going ahead with the development that we need to provide affordable homes. I urge all power to her arm in pressing the case for real neighbourhood plans.
Harriett Baldwin
Provided that my hon. Friend’s constituents are consistent with the overall parameters of the local plan and the plan still provides the housing that we need, a neighbourhood plan is an excellent way for local people to have some control over how their villages develop. Villages such as Lower Broadheath in my constituency have been put off by the complication and complexity and the possible powerlessness that they interpret in the current rules. Will the Minister reassure villagers in Lower Broadheath and other parishes that, once they have agreed their neighbourhood plan and won a vote on it in a referendum, it will take precedence over the local plan, even if that local plan has been adopted? Will he elaborate on the remarks made to The Sunday Times this weekend by his colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford, who said that he will make the process of neighbourhood planning easier for villages and other neighbourhoods?
What can the Minister say to the octogenarian farmer in my local area who lives in a draughty five-bedroom home, owns land nearby and wants nothing more than to build a bungalow in the field next door for the final years of his life? Under today’s rules, such building is prohibited in open countryside. If a neighbourhood plan permits such single homes inside settlement boundaries, will my farmer have any hope that he can build his bungalow? Will individuals be able to get planning permission to build a single home on land that they own in the countryside? That is how our beautiful villages originally developed. Can a parish put that in their neighbourhood plan?
To conclude, I have come to the view that the planning process still remains extraordinarily baroque and subject to the whim of distant bureaucrats with no stake in the locality. Planning lawyers surely rub their hands in glee at all the legal fees involved. One local parish, Powick, raised £10,000 for its own lawyer. How is that a good use of family budgets? How does it help the economy? In balancing the interests of tomorrow’s population with the interests of today’s home owners and home builders, we are strangling growth in south Worcestershire, preventing house building and stalling construction in my constituency and elsewhere. I look forward to hearing from the Minister about his and the Secretary of State’s plans to unblock the Byzantine process.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on securing the debate. I should explain at the outset that, although I am speaking on behalf of the Department for Communities and Local Government, I am sure that when she requested the debate, she hoped that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), would reply, as he is the planning Minister. He is unable to be in London today, so I shall reply to the debate.
I acknowledge the passion with which my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire put her case. I have heard the planning system described in many ways, but the use of the words “baroque” and “Byzantine” in the same speech is quite an achievement. I will try to answer her questions, but I hope she will understand the dual constraint I am under: I am not the planning Minister, but even if I were, due to the quasi-judicial nature of the Secretary of State’s position, I would not be able to comment in depth on some of her points or certain individual cases that she raises.
National planning policy places local plans at the heart of the planning system. Those plans set out a vision and framework for the future development of an area. The Government urge councils to get on with their local plans: 51% have now adopted a local plan and 76% have reached at least publication stage. As my hon. Friend acknowledged, that represents good progress over the past three years. When the Government came to office, only 17% of councils had an adopted plan that complied with the 2004 legislation, which is an extraordinary state of affairs. When I became a Minister in the Department, I was surprised to find that in 2010, 83% of local authorities had not adopted an up-to-date local plan, despite the fact that six years had passed since the legislation. In the general context of what she says, that fact might support the idea that the planning system is both baroque and Byzantine to some of those trying to navigate their way through it.
The purpose of the local plan is to identify what development is needed and assess where and how that can best be delivered. That gives local people more control over the planning decisions that affect them. I cannot comment on the details of the plan in south Worcestershire or housing needs there in particular, because the plan is currently before the Planning Inspectorate. The Government have removed top-down targets for housing delivery. My hon. Friend mentioned the west midlands regional spatial strategy. When I was an MP in the previous Parliament—you may remember this, Mr Hood—Westminster Hall was often full of west midlands MPs, in the case of my hon. Friend, and west country MPs, in my case, complaining about regional spatial strategies and how they had been imposed by fiat from central Government. They were often resisted by MPs of all political complexions. The fact that the coalition Government removed them is welcome.
Targets did not incentivise housing delivery. As a country, there is a significant problem that we must counter: we simply have not been building enough houses to meet our needs. The latest household projections suggest a need for 221,000 homes a year. In the most recent year for which figures are available, 2012-13, the number of first-time buyers in England who were able to buy a home without their parents’ help fell to one third—the lowest level since we began recording such information. My hon. Friends from Worcestershire will have come across that issue when dealing with their constituents. I am sure that we all come across that problem whatever area we represent, whether cities such as mine, more rural areas or a cathedral city such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). I recognise the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire raised: we desperately need more housing to be built.
Harriett Baldwin
I thank the Minister for his opening remarks. I would like to press a particular question. He alluded to the quasi-judicial role of the Secretary of State. I would hate to allege that he is hiding behind that to any extent, but he and the Secretary of State can issue guidance and influence the overall weight given to emerging plans. Will he elaborate on what power the Secretary of State has to try to speed up the delivery of homes, which he has rightly pointed out are needed in our area?
Stephen Williams
I will shortly be coming on to the weight that should be given to emerging plans. Assessment of objectively assessed need is not an exact science; the regional spatial strategy proved that. It depends on a number of assumptions about future conditions, so the examination of any local plan must test those assumptions. Agreement on housing need involves difficult decisions, but such decisions bring a security that the plan will steer development to where people agree it should go. If need is underestimated, housing shortages will be perpetuated for decades.
Regarding the methodology for calculating housing need, the draft national planning practice guidance suite has expanded on the requirements for assessing objectively assessed housing need, and aims to provide clarity. To answer a specific point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire, we are currently considering comments on the guidance and will issue the final guidance shortly. [Interruption.] I hear a snigger coming from a former Minister. None the less, those are the words that I have been given.
Stephen Williams
I will press on for just a moment.
A balance must be struck between applying a fixed methodology and the need to give flexibility to adjust for local circumstances. One methodology is unlikely to suit all circumstances. We favour local flexibility, underpinned by robust evidence of local circumstances.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire mentioned C2 accommodation and extra care homes in particular. The planning Minister is certainly aware of that issue. He fully supports the need to ensure that housing for elderly people is properly planned and provided. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester said that he too wants to see that in his area.
Mr Robin Walker
In Worcester, we have a lot of extra care planned. Does the Minister agree, in principle, that where extra care enables people to vacate homes for families, it can be valuable in dealing with the overall housing shortage as well as the housing shortage for elderly people?
Stephen Williams
I agree with my hon. Friend, and would extrapolate from that across the Government’s welfare reform policies. One planning decision certainly can have the beneficial effects elsewhere that we are trying to achieve.
The planning Minister is considering whether clarity can be afforded on extra care housing and housing supply in forthcoming planning guidance. The message to my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire is that there are revisions and new guidance in the pipeline. Perhaps the planning Minister will write to her with a timetable on when the guidance will be issued.
The thrust of what my hon. Friend was saying concerned the time taken to put the South Worcestershire development plan in place. Clearly, we all want plans to be put in place as quickly as possible. However, the length of time taken at an examination depends on many factors, including the complexity of the issues and the level of objection. It is quicker in the long run for the inspector to give the council an opportunity to revisit evidence. The alternative is withdrawal from examination, which will leave councils without a plan for a longer period.
My hon. Friend asked some questions about what weight should be given to emerging plans. I cannot comment on the individual cases and areas she mentioned, but I can say that Government policy sets out the fact that plans become more robust as they evolve through the plan-making process. Decision makers, whether they are councils or inspectors, can consider whether they should give weight to emerging policies in local plans. That weight will increase as the plan evolves.
We need to strike the right balance. We cannot have a situation where development decisions are put on hold whenever a plan is in preparation. It would not be sensible to have some form of moratorium on development during that period. It would not be advisable to give draft plans the same weight as an adopted plan. Applying such weight to a draft plan would allow councils to postpone examination, perhaps indefinitely, leaving uncertainty for all concerned. Our draft planning guidance sets out what we think is an appropriate way forward. It establishes the exceptional circumstances under which applications should be considered, but we need to consider carefully the comments made on the draft guidance before reaching a final view.
My hon. Friend mentioned neighbourhood planning, and I am glad that she said that she loves neighbourhood planning. Before I became a Minister in this Department, I was involved with the preparation of the Old Market neighbourhood plan in my constituency of Bristol West—even writing its foreword. I share her enthusiasm for neighbourhood planning, a major reform introduced by the coalition Government in the Localism Act 2011. There is a growing momentum behind neighbourhood plans. I think there are more than 700 plans at the beginning of their journey. At the moment, four have gone all the way to the end—to a referendum.
I asked one of my officials in the Department to show me the voting figures in those referendums. Interestingly, even when the referendum was coterminous—on the same day—with a local government election, the turnout in the referendums was higher than in the election of a councillor for the same area. That shows the enthusiasm of local people in engaging with the process. That is what the Government are all about in this area: trying to grow organic, grass-roots activity to get people involved in shaping their own community.
Harriett Baldwin
I appreciate the enthusiasm that the Minister shares with me on neighbourhood planning. What would he say to the parishes in my constituency that are in the process of developing neighbourhood plans and are concerned about the timetable and other obstacles in their way? Will we be hearing in the guidance soon about how the process will—
Harriett Baldwin
Is shortly longer than soon? I can never remember.
Will we be hearing in the guidance about how the process will be made simpler, easier, quicker and less complex for smaller villages to develop their plans?
Stephen Williams
I will see whether my concluding remarks will satisfy my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend also asked about the role of Members of Parliament in delivering neighbourhood plans. I have mentioned my own role in my local plan before I became a Minister, and I would certainly encourage all Members of Parliament to take an active interest in neighbourhood planning—not to have a top-down approach, but to involve people. Often as constituency MPs, we know our communities in great detail, so there is a role for us on the ground, perhaps to bring people together and to act as mediators between local businesses, amenity groups, residents groups and local planning authorities.
On the legal status of a neighbourhood plan—my hon. Friend mentioned Lower Broadheath in particular—neighbourhood plans should implement the strategic policies set by the local plan. I appreciate that in this case the local plan is out of date, and where an up-to-date local plan is not in place, the community and the local authority should work together to produce complementary neighbourhood and local plans. The law requires the decision maker to favour the most recently adopted plan where there is any conflict.
Regarding my hon. Friend’s invitation to comment on the planning Minister’s comments in The Sunday Times about putting neighbourhood plans in place, I must say that the planning Minister makes quite a lot of controversial comments in newspaper articles, some of which are not very complimentary about her party leader—or my party leader—but we will not go into that.
We are learning from the process of neighbourhood planning. I said that 700 were in their early stages and four have gone all the way. The Department takes great interest in how the plans develop. I chaired a round table with another Minister recently with all sorts of groups interested in the whole suite of community rights. We are certainly encouraging neighbourhood and campaign groups, such as the Campaign for Real Ale, Supporters Direct and other amenity groups and civic societies, to come forward to give us their experience on how the whole suite of community rights under the Localism Act has been adopted.
Finally, on the farmer and his bungalow, I am afraid that I have to disappoint my hon. Friend and say that I cannot comment on individual cases. However, I suggest that she looks at the Upper Eden neighbourhood plan, which has gone all the way through, to see how people have dealt with that issue.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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ECOFIN (Budget)
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan)
The Economic and Financial Affairs Council—Budget, was held in Brussels on 11 November 2013.
The Council and the European Parliament agreed on the 2014 EU budget and draft amending budget No. 9 to the 2013 EU budget at the Economic and Financial Affairs Council.
In the Council, the UK and a number of other member states were very clear that it would be irresponsible for the EU to ask for excessive funds when spending in member states is being reduced.
The final deal is the first annual budget agreed under the new multi-annual financial framework (MFF) deal that the Prime Minister secured in February. During negotiations the UK maintained its clear position that any deal should not exceed the ceilings established in this agreement. This was delivered by Council, with an adopted budget that is below the MFF ceiling and will result in a 6% reduction in EU spending compared with the 2013 budget.
However, the UK wanted to go further in places to maintain pressure on EU spending and because of this was ultimately unable to support and voted against the final deal.
Passenger Name Records (EU-Canada)
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
The Government have decided to opt in to the Council decisions to sign and conclude the transfer and processing of passenger name records data agreement with Canada (European Union Document Nos. 12645/13 and 12637/13).
These decisions relate to a draft agreement between Canada and the European Union to allow the use and transfer of passenger name record (PNR) data to the Canadian competent authority. PNR is a record of each passenger’s travel requirements which contains all information necessary to enable reservations to be processed and controlled by air carriers.
The UK has recognised first hand the benefits of PNR through its own border systems programme (formally e-Borders), which has already been used to arrest suspects wanted for serious offences such as murder, rape and kidnap. For this reason, the Government remain committed to the use of PNR as a way of tackling serious crime and terrorism but not at the expense of data protection and civil liberties.
The agreement provides that Canada shall ensure that its competent authority processes PNR “strictly” for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorism and other serious crime that is transnational in nature. Such processing constitutes a legitimate objective for the purposes of article 52 of the charter of fundamental rights of the European Union. PNR data have a clear value in combating these types of crime, which goes to the necessity of the measure to protect the public.
The agreement is strictly limited to the transfer of PNR for the purposes of preventing and combating terrorism and other serious transnational crime. It is therefore not directly applicable to the control of immigration but could be used to help fight people trafficking.
We are in regular contact with the airline carriers, on whom the burden for provision of PNR data rests. They are required by Canada to provide such data already; this agreement will provide the legal coverage they need to do so. The arrangements envisaged are already in operation in practice and the proposed agreement will not have undue impact on the carriers’ existing systems.
We expect the agreement to be adopted at the December Justice and Home Affairs Council under the “A points” list.
Grand Committee
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Children and Families Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale)
My Lords, this is the resumed Grand Committee on the Children and Families Bill. If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells ring and resume after 10 minutes. The Lord Chairman’s watch is the final arbiter. I understand that the Committee is currently debating Amendment 263, which has already been moved.
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I hope I am not the only person who is going to speak at this point. I would find it really awesome to be the only one who caused this rather rare event of an amendment being carried over between two sessions of business.
I support Amendments 264, 265 and 266 on standardised packaging. I do not want to make too many of the points that have already been made—at breakneck speed, may I say; it showed that we can speed up if we put our minds to it—but will bring in a few others. There really is quite a consensus stacking up that there is a pressing case for standardised packaging.
The World Health Organisation says that standardised packaging would produce,
“the maximum reduction in the marketing effect of tobacco packaging”.
Australia has adopted it, as everybody knows, and the early evidence is that the standardised packs there are making smoking less appealing and have not caused any problems for retailers, which was one of the predictions. Scotland and Ireland have committed to it in principle, and I have it on very good authority that the Health Minister in Wales is convinced of the evidence. New Zealand, Canada, France, Norway and India are all considering this way forward.
We have huge support here from the medical colleges, including the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, from the BMA, and from charities such as my own charity, Diabetes UK—I declare an interest as chief executive—as well as Cancer Research UK and the British Heart Foundation. They all believe that there is an increasing body of hard evidence. Of course, the public support standardised packs, with 64% polling in favour.
Standardised packs are really important because packaging is the last advertising route left to manufacturers and tobacco companies are spending a huge amount on pack design, and they do not do that for no reason. They recognise the truism that kids and young people are attached to brands. If you have ever tried to persuade your child to buy a pair of supermarket trainers you will know exactly how attached to brands they are.
When I was a kid and all my friends were starting to smoke, there was a league table of cachet. I am really old so Navy Cut was considered a bit more gentlemanly than Wills Woodbines. Embassy and Regal were the great working man’s fags and of course Silk Cut was for the ladies. Then the 1980s came and people took up Camels or Gauloises or, the height of cool, Lucky Strike. I was terribly tempted, I must say, by Balkan Sobranie, which were wonderfully coloured little cigarettes with gold filters. I had a friend, Brian, who smoked them and I used to sit there with one unlit, toying with this beautiful, chic sophistication while he puffed away. Alas, he died at 51 of lung cancer.
Helena Rubinstein used to say:
“In the factory we make cosmetics but in the store we sell hope”.
But of course we are not talking about selling hope; we are talking about selling addiction, cancer, heart disease, poor quality of life and early death for our children and young people.
Noble Lords have already shown that more than 200,000 kids aged between 11 and 15 start smoking each year. We really should take the step. Why do the Government continue to delay? I am sure the Minister will tell us. If they are waiting for the emerging impact of the Australian policy, they should not. The conclusive evidence could take two or three more years with another 500,000 kids addicted to a killer habit. We know that HMRC believes that there is no evidence that standardised packaging would increase the illicit trade that is one of the concerns, so there is no case for waiting for the Australian evidence. Why does the Minister believe there is a case for further delay? Will he please simply give in and get the Government to support Amendments 264, 265 and 266? I particularly commend Amendments 265 and 266, which strengthen the amendment further.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Earl and I have been discussing the regulation of tobacco products since 2008. At that time he was often sceptical about the efficacy of our proposals for the retail marketing of tobacco products. I particularly welcome these amendments because it is important that we keep this issue alive. Since 2010, my noble friend Lord Hunt and I, as well as others, have asked a series of questions about the enactment of the legislation concerning the display of tobacco products. I congratulate the noble Earl on making that happen successfully. It has been a success: it is now normal to walk into your corner shop and not see tobacco products side by side with comics and chocolates, which used to normalise tobacco for our young people.
It is important to be clear in what we are talking about. There are all the statistics in the world that people can talk about in terms of cancer, addiction and all those other things. However, we are talking about whether we are prepared to allow the over-powerful and wealthy tobacco companies to gain their next market for the profits they need to make from tobacco products. That is what this amendment is about. They can exist only if they continue to recruit young people to tobacco addiction so that they have their next generation of smokers, and that is what this is about. It is about reducing the number of young people who, by becoming addicted to tobacco and tobacco products, provide tobacco companies with their next generation of smokers. We know how hard it is to stop smoking once you have started, and I speak as an ex-smoker.
I hope that, over the years when the noble Earl has distinguished himself as the Minister in his job at the Department of Health, he has had access to all the information and research, and now has at his disposal all the facts about tobacco addiction and all the terrible diseases that this brings to everybody, so that he will be convinced that we need to take this forward. I hope he will tell the Committee either that the Government will support these amendments, or that they are not necessary because the Government intend to take plain packaging forward as quickly as possible.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend just referred to how difficult it is to break the habit once you have formed it. I was a smoker in my youth. I progressed to a pipe, and on one occasion I was in some gathering with fellow young people when the bowl of my pipe dropped off into a pint of beer. I realised that this was a message from God and that one or other had to stop. I had little difficulty in choosing beer with which to continue. We all have these experiences. I am sure I am not alone in remembering with some guilt that, having joined the smoking culture—certainly the presentation of tobacco and cigarettes was an important part of the wooing of a person into the habit—I used to take tremendous pride in choosing the right cigarettes for my father on his birthday or at Christmas. That was very important, because he was a smoker and I was able to present him with a well wrapped packet of what he would like. Later in life, he suffered a severe stroke which left him speechless for the rest of his life, and I have always had an element of guilt about the fact that I no doubt contributed to that development in his health.
I do not understand why we prevaricate on these issues, as we are talking about a killer. Let us get this absolutely straight: it is a killer. We have no hesitation in saying that we must have rules about seat belts in cars because children get killed in accidents. We have special rules about children in cars because of how vulnerable they are. Why, if we take this seriously for seat belts and the rest, do we not take it equally seriously for tobacco?
My final point is that, as a society, we are agonising over the difficulties faced by our health service as it tries to grapple with the pressures on it. By enabling and encouraging young people to become part of the smoking community—by allowing them to drift into it or, indeed, by encouraging the deterioration in their health because of our failure to take rigorous action—we are deliberately adding to the problems of the health service. It seems to me that this is not only wrong but irresponsible. On the one hand to be grieving and agonising about the problems of the health service and the shortage of funds, and on the other hand to be aggravating it by our failure to act where we could act, seems to me irrational behaviour.
I commend noble Lords who have tabled these amendments, which certainly deserve support. I believe we shall be looked at very critically indeed in history for having prevaricated and pussyfooted for so long on such a crucial issue.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I was going to make rather a longer speech the other night, but when I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, present Amendment 263, most of the points in my speech were covered. However, I add my voice in support of what she said and of the other amendments before us today.
When I was 15, I remember being called home from school, as my father had had a very severe heart attack. He smoked between 40 and 60 cigarettes a day. I was there when the doctor told him, “You know what has caused this: it is your smoking”. I avoided smoking as a result—it brought the message home to me. When I used to travel in the car with him, invariably the little side window on the driver’s side would be slightly open, and most of the smoke would come back to me. We have legislation that protects people who have to work in vehicles from exposure to smoke—my goodness, we should be protecting children in a similar situation.
People say, “What next? You’ll be saying that people cannot smoke in their own homes”. The difference is that, in their own homes, children can go to another room—up to their bedroom or wherever—but when they are travelling in a car they cannot do anything like that. I very much hope that the Committee, and in due course, on Report, the House, will take on board an amendment along the lines of that moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. There is certainly widespread support on the Cross Benches for these amendments. If the Government do not move something themselves, I suspect the House will move on their behalf and that this will go forward into legislation.
Lord Palmer (CB)
My Lords, I fear that I may well be a lone voice in not supporting this amendment, even though I think smoking is a revolting habit and that everything must be done to encourage young people to refrain from it. There has been a lot of research into this, and a far more effective way to reduce youth smoking would be to ban the proxy purchasing of all tobacco products for under-18s, as is the case currently for alcohol.
I declare an interest as chairman of the Lords and Commons Cigar and Pipe Smokers’ Club and am, for my sins, a shareholder in BAT.
It must not be forgotten, particularly following the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, how much revenue is raised by the sale of legal tobacco products and, more importantly, how much income the Treasury is deprived of through illicit imports. I have a nasty feeling that if this amendment is agreed to, or voted on on Report, it will only compound that terrible figure.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I will speak very briefly. Over the years I have been attracted by most vices, but never to smoking, so in the circumstances it is easy to speak against it. I will add that it is not just a domestic issue. The noble Lord says that he has an interest in BAT. What astonishes me is the way in which the growing awareness in this country of the dangers of smoking seems to be so slowly taken up in the developing world. We have a moral need, not only in relation to our own children but to the developing world, to make clear the dangers of smoking. It really is a global issue. It behoves particularly the wealthier countries—not least if the interests of big business are engaged, as undoubtedly they are, or those of the Exchequer—to give a proper lead. I think these amendments do just that.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, I want to speak briefly because the health arguments have mainly been made. I want to make two rather different points. I support both of these amendments. I have a long-standing reputation for campaigning in this area. I find it interesting that the industry has suggested, from time to time, that packaging makes no difference. If it makes no difference, why is it so important? Let us get on and take it off the shelves. We have all the evidence to show that children are attracted to packaging and we all know our own instincts. I have never smoked, but both my parents died from smoking related diseases. My mother was addicted and said that I should stop anyone else I could from smoking.
My other point is on the smoking in cars amendment. Having said that the medical arguments are substantially made, which the Minister knows whatever the position he has to take on this, there is also a clear safety issue about smoking with children in cars. Anyone who has driven with two arguing children strapped in the back of their car—because children argue in the backs of cars, and if yours do not, then they are remarkable—will know how distracting it is and how you have to absolutely keep your concentration up. So I have always found it strange that we do not stop people being distracted by fiddling into a bag or a pocket for a packet of cigarettes, finding something to light up with and taking their eye off the road—we have all seen it—while they light a cigarette. They then have a cigarette in one hand while they are driving their children in their cars. This is an added reason for ensuring that people cannot smoke with children in cars. You might say that where there are two people one of them may smoke, but there is the medical reason and this additional safety reason. I have no idea whether there are any statistics on accidents because people have been smoking in cars, but when you think of the legislation we have to stop people using mobiles, which in some ways are much more automatic, I cannot understand why we do not have similar legislation to protect children, not only for the medical issues in relation to their health but also for sheer practical safety reasons.
Lord Storey (LD)
I will speak to Amendments 263 and 264. If you said to some parents that you were going to put their son or daughter or both in a tin box, cut some holes in the box, then fill it with smoke, put it on wheels and drive it around all the time, they would think you were absolutely mad. The tin box is almost like a coffin because you are killing children. You are literally killing children.
My parents were heavy smokers; they smoked 40 Senior Service every day. In fact, they smoked so much that our living room ceiling turned yellow once a year and had to be repainted. I always remember that when my father drove me through the Mersey Tunnel he would say, “We’ll have to put the window up because you can die from carbon monoxide poisoning, you know”, yet—perhaps this is why I get chest infections regularly—he was putting our family in that sort of situation. Of course, he did not know about the effects.
All of us look back at things in our lives that we are really proud of. The thing that I am most proud of in politics was that we introduced Smokefree Liverpool. Thanks to support from noble Lords of all groupings, we were able to influence, in a small part, government thinking. You often get people saying, “Oh, it’s the nanny state. We don’t want a nanny state. We don’t want people telling us what to do. If we ban smoking in cars, the next thing will be that we ban it in the house as well”. Well, nannies are there to protect and look after children, and a nanny state should be there to look after and protect children.
Children are particularly vulnerable to second-hand smoking as they breathe more rapidly and inhale more pollutants than adults. ASH has shown that parental smoking is a causal factor of asthma in children, and that the prevalence of asthma increases when the number of smokers in a car or in the home increases. Children exposed to second-hand smoking also have an increased risk of lower respiratory infections, bronchitis, middle ear disease, bacterial meningitis and sudden infant death syndrome. There is also a very social issue, one that is directly related to making our society fairer. Evidence has shown that children living in the poorest households have the greatest levels of exposure to smoking and that passive smoking has been shown to affect children’s mental development and school absenteeism. That clearly undermines our efforts to increase social mobility. Experts have suggested that banning smoking in cars while driving with children is an important step in limiting the effect of second-hand smoking.
For those more interested in the economic side, the numbers are staggering. The health disorders caused by smoke-generated disorders cost the NHS about £23.3 million a year. In particular, £4 million is spent on asthma drugs for children up to the age of 16. The future treatment costs for smokers who take up smoking as a consequence of smoking by a parent could be as high as £5.7 million each year. Parents need to consider that, in choosing to smoke, they will find it difficult to explain to the children why they in turn should not smoke. The NHS has shown that children who grow up with a parent or family member who smokes are three times as likely to start smoking themselves. As we can see, the issue has implications for public health and our society in general, and ignoring it would mean ignoring the poll in 2009 which found that a majority of adults in England were in favour of banning smoking in cars, with 74% opposed to smoking in cars with children. The message is clear: if we really care about our children and want to improve their health and social mobility, this is a step that we can take.
I can look back, as no doubt all of us can, at moments in our social policies where there has been resistance from some quarters, whether it be from government or a powerful lobby, but the will of people has always come out. Noble Lords may remember the row about seatbelts: “Ooh, you can’t have the nanny state making people wear seatbelts”. In the end we had the courage to fight for that, and we cut the number of deaths in traffic accidents considerably. There was even a fuss about making people riding motorbikes wear crash helmets; there was a feeling that, “We shouldn’t do that. The nanny state is interfering by telling people that they must wear a helmet”. It is quite right that they should wear helmets. More recently, we have had the issue of smoking in public places. As a Government, we have a duty and a responsibility to do this.
Governments of all political persuasions have to think very carefully and be led by evidence, not by emotion or lobbying. I understand that the issue of plain packaging for tobacco products is something that the Government were committed to but they wanted to see quite clearly that the policy that was agreed, particularly in Australia, brought results. It is now clear that that policy is having an impact, and I hope that the Government, having initially said, “Let us wait and see”, might now say, “Come on, this is an opportunity to move forward”. I look forward to the Minister responding to the pressure from your Lordships here.
On children in cars, I would prefer that we agree the amendment in its entirety, but if we cannot do that, we could think about taking the first step by having public information, as we used to do. We could provide adverts and publicity material so that parents could see what needs to be done. But if we really want to be progressive and move forward, we should support these amendments.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I rise extremely briefly because I had my go on Monday. I want to add just one point to what my noble friend Lord Storey has said. Some people are saying, “Let’s start with an awareness-raising campaign. Let’s see what we can do there. We don’t need to go straight to legislation”. I do not agree with that. The most effective example that I can cite was the introduction of legislation for the wearing of seatbelts. Awareness-raising had been tried, but it achieved only 25% compliance rates, but soon after the legislation was introduced, alongside the awareness-raising effort—you need both; it is not one or the other—91% of adults started to wear seatbelts. As my noble friend said, it is clear that it has saved lives. I think that very few people in this country, and certainly the polls show it, now think that that is an infringement of civil liberties.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I should perhaps declare an interest as chairman of an NHS foundation trust, as a consultant trainer to Cumberlege Connections and as president of GS1. I welcome this debate. I am delighted to see Amendments 263 and 264, and I have put my name, alongside that of my noble friend Lady Hughes, to Amendments 265 and 266, which are essentially amendments to Amendment 264.
As my noble friend Lady Hughes said on Monday, ever since the advertising ban came in, cigarette packaging has been the way in which tobacco companies have sought to market their products. That is why they spend millions on developing their packaging by testing its attractiveness to potential new customers, and that is why standardised packaging is such an important issue. Amendments 265 and 266 build on the excellent Amendment 264. Essentially, we seek to strengthen that amendment by requiring the Secretary of State to make regulations rather than by simply giving him the discretion to do so. It is important that Ministers are left in no doubt that they need to introduce standardised packaging, which is why I hope that those noble Lords who have proposed Amendment 264 and spoken so eloquently to it will accept our amendments to strengthen the provision. What has happened over the past two years or so would suggest that it is better not to give Ministers discretion in this area.
When the noble Earl comes to wind up, it would be helpful if he could explain the Government’s change of view on this matter. He will know that the former health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, said:
“The evidence is clear that packaging helps to recruit smokers, so it makes sense to consider having less attractive packaging”.
It was widely reported in March this year that legislation to enforce plain packaging for cigarettes would be included in the Queen’s Speech. In April, the then public health Minister, Anna Soubry, said that, having seen the evidence, she had been personally persuaded of the case for standardised plain packaging for cigarettes, but in July we heard the announcement that this was going to be postponed because we would wait and see what happened in Australia.
Will the Minister explain to us why the Government changed their mind and does he agree that the systematic review of all the evidence on standardised packaging commissioned by his department and published alongside the Government’s original consultation showed clearly the strong evidence that standardised packaging would help to reduce smoking rates by reducing the attractiveness and appeal of tobacco products and increasing the noticeability and effectiveness of health warnings and messages? Will he also acknowledge that two internal Philip Morris International corporate affairs documents from February and March 2012 showed that the top lobbying message for the world’s largest tobacco company was to use the strapline, “Wait and see what happens in Australia”? Why have the Government fallen for that attempt? Why on earth should we wait to see what happens in Australia? Cricket aside, I have great fondness for Australia and Australians, but why on earth are we waiting to see what happens there?
We have always been a world leader in this area with actions such as introducing smoking bans in pubs and enclosed spaces, ending tobacco companies’ sports sponsorship and billboard advertising, raising the legal age for purchasing cigarettes and the introduction of graphic warnings on cigarette packs. We have been a leader and our actions have had an impact. We have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of young smokers. Why on earth do we not want to continue in that vein? The Government will be in no doubt about the strength of feeling in your Lordships’ House and I have no doubt whatever that it wishes to see action taken on this issue. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give us some comfort that the Government recognise that we should get on with tackling this issue.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)
My Lords, we have heard time and time again both here and in the other place of the clear benefits that plain packaging on cigarette packs would bring to children’s future prospects. Indeed, we have already had clear evidence from other countries of the benefits of taking this measure, as we have just heard, and I need not repeat it. We have also been told of the serious and life-limiting impact that passive smoking in cars can have on young people’s lives. Children often do not know the true risks of passive smoking in vehicles until they have already been exposed to it and certainly cannot be expected to make informed decisions about smoking, particularly not those from the most vulnerable backgrounds. For many the very real risks are not understood until, crucially, they are already addicted.
The knowledge that more than 200,000 children in the UK started to smoke in 2011 should alone be quite enough to urge us to take this preventive action. Awareness campaigns and sharing information are crucial measures, and will continue to be so, but we can see that they are clearly not enough. Surely, we have a responsibility to protect children from something which we already know is devastating. Therefore, I strongly support this group of amendments.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments, and my name is attached to Amendment 264. I should declare that I have a history as regards smoking as I used to be a chain smoker but gave it up when I was six. About 15 years ago in your Lordships’ House I introduced an amendment to ban smoking in public places. I put it on the back of a criminal justice Bill, which is a convenient way of moving things. I was amazed that the House was full right up to midnight when my amendment was discussed. I fondly imagined that everyone had come to listen to my wisdom, but little did I know that the House had filled with smoking barons waiting to pounce. However, I got my own back on them because at the end of the debate I thanked everyone for their contributions and, instead of saying, “I beg leave to withdraw my amendment”, for some reason or other I said, “Amendment not moved”. They all looked very puzzled because we had just spent hours discussing it. However, the noble Baroness on the Woolsack quickly said, “Amendment not moved”, passed on and they lost the opportunity to vote. They were furious and I was very pleased. As a professor of surgery, of course, I fully back any move to reduce the amount of smoking and I am convinced that these amendments would do that.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, this has been an instructive debate and let me say immediately that I have listened carefully to all the contributions, both today and on Monday. Perhaps I may start by addressing Amendment 263. I should say at the outset that I have enormous sympathy with the aim of this amendment, which is to protect children’s health from the harm that can be caused by second-hand smoke, and I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, along with my noble friend Lady Tyler for bringing this important issue to our attention.
We all agree that we do not want to see children exposed to second-hand smoke anywhere. The evidence of the harm caused by second-hand smoke is clear, but many children continue to be exposed to it, both in the family car and in the home. The question posed by this debate is whether legislation is the most proportionate and viable means of addressing the problem. We need to consider that question carefully and I must say that, while supporting the spirit of the amendment—which I certainly do—the Government are not convinced that creating new criminal offences is the right approach.
Of course, in some people’s minds there are civil liberties considerations, which might include what is often perceived as state intrusion into people’s private space. That is a complex area worthy of a debate on its own, but of course I acknowledge that any arguments on that score need to be balanced against the need to protect children. Since 2007, evidence shows that smoke-free legislation has been effective in reducing exposure to second-hand smoke in virtually all enclosed work and public spaces, public transport and work vehicles. Compliance with the law is high and we now benefit from clean air at work, in pubs and restaurants, and on public transport. However, it does not automatically follow from that that it is right to extend the scope of legislation to cover private cars.
There are many practical issues to be considered, particularly around effective enforcement, which is not something that we have heard much about during the course of the debate. Smoke-free legislation in England is enforced by local authority environmental health officers. They do not hold powers to stop vehicles or to detain people in vehicles that are already stationary. Consequently, it would be very difficult for them to take effective enforcement action without the assistance of the police. Since this is a public health issue rather than one of road safety, I expect that such an additional duty on top of their many other responsibilities would be a cause for concern for the police. The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health has identified other practical difficulties around enforcement. These include accurately identifying which vehicles are required to be smoke-free. For example, small children may not easily be visible from outside the vehicle. Further difficulties include obtaining evidence of smoking, identifying the driver and passengers, and proving the age of the child.
I hope that the Committee agrees that there would be real practical difficulties in effectively enforcing such an offence. If we cannot credibly enforce the law, then the credibility of the law itself is called into question. That is why the Government firmly believe that, rather than focus on what would be a complicated and resource-intensive enforcement process, we should continue the non-legislative approach that the evidence shows is working; namely, encouraging positive and lasting behaviour change among adults who place children’s health at risk. My noble friend Lord Storey urged us to do this. Our comprehensive tobacco control plan states:
“Rather than extending smokefree legislation, we want people to recognise the risks of secondhand smoke and decide voluntarily to make their homes and family cars smokefree”.
That is why Public Health England, building on last year’s success, ran another hard-hitting marketing campaign in June and July this year. The campaign aimed to encourage smokers to stop and think before smoking in front of children, whether in the home or in the car. It also encouraged smokers to order an NHS smokefree kit with tips on making the home and car entirely smoke-free spaces, together with support to help quit smoking altogether.
This year’s campaign is currently being evaluated, but emerging findings are encouraging. They show that the campaign has been successful in raising awareness and in changing attitudes and behaviour, with almost three-quarters of those surveyed agreeing that smoking out of an open door or window was not enough to protect children from second-hand smoke. Of those surveyed, 37% reported that they had taken action to reduce their children’s exposure to second-hand smoke, compared with 29% in 2012. In addition, 73% agreed that the adverts made them realise that smoking out of an open window was not enough to protect children, and there were nearly 85,000 orders for smokefree kits. That is an increase of 48% on the 2012 campaign.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester rightly suggested that this is a global issue. I agree. We are, however, considered to be a leader in tobacco control internationally. The World Health Organisation has assessed us to be number one in Europe in this area, and through the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control we share this good practice as much as we can.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, suggested that the Government ought to introduce an offence of proxy purchasing. I know that shopkeepers and others are interested in making it an offence to buy tobacco for young people under the age of 18. I am sympathetic to that concern, but even were such an offence to be introduced, it would not stop family and friends sharing cigarettes with children. Therefore, we get back to the argument about behaviour change, which I think is more relevant here.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made an interesting point about this being considered as a road safety issue. I agree that any activity such as smoking—getting out a cigarette, lighting it, disposing of hot ash or stubbing the cigarette out—is likely to distract the driver, particularly if carried out in a moment that is critical for road safety. However, there are a host of things drivers do that have the potential to be equally distracting, be it eating, drinking, adjusting the radio, consulting directions or whatever it may be. First and foremost, it is the driver’s responsibility to drive safely at all times. Section 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988 already provides a perfectly adequate offence if a driver fails to maintain proper control of a vehicle while driving. While a specific offence has been created for driving while using a hand-held mobile phone, the Government do not believe that there is any need to introduce a new and separate offence of smoking while driving.
I welcome the debate on this important issue and I can assure noble Lords that we shall consider carefully the findings of this year’s marketing campaign and decide what further action may be needed. I can assure the Committee that the Government will continue to work to protect children from second-hand smoke in family cars and in the home. We are not complacent but we remain to be convinced that legislation is the most effective and proportionate way of achieving this.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
My understanding of this is that, because the Government would not come forward with a more general provision, this amendment has been hitched on to the Bill in desperation because it seemed to be a sensible place to try to get it into. The convolutions that the Minister is rightly pointing out would be solved at a stroke if there were to be a ban on differentiated packaging across the board and standardised packaging were introduced for all cigarettes.
Earl Howe
That indeed is my understanding. Noble Lords have taken the opportunity of this Bill to raise the dangers of smoking, particularly of passive smoking for children, and I have no issue with that. I merely point out that there are problems with the amendment as drafted. I am not saying that it would not be possible to draft another amendment which noble Lords might care to consider between now and Report. Being able to enforce these provisions as drafted is also a significant aspect. For example, it may be hard to judge whether a product could reasonably be expected to attract children, as the amendment would require, or to determine what might be aimed at or would attract 18 year-olds but not, let us say, 17 year-olds or 13 year-olds.
I am grateful to noble Lords for raising this important issue and for keeping this debate at the front of our minds. It is a debate that we need to continue. As I have said, the Government have yet to make a decision on this policy, but if we were to bring in such a measure, we would not want it to be circumscribed in the way that is proposed. We would not want to set up a situation in which both branded and standardised packs could be sold legally depending on where they were sold and what other products were sold alongside them. I therefore urge noble Lords not to press their amendments and respectfully suggest that they consider other avenues for bringing this matter before the House on Report.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I always admire the noble Earl’s eloquence when defending the indefensible and he has done that par excellence today, but is not the reality that this is an opportunity for the Committee and the House to express a view in principle on the issue? It would then be up to the Government. As the noble Earl knows, when that happens, the Government simply come back with an amendment at Third Reading to deal with the technical issues. Surely the issue here is whether the House goes forward to a vote in principle, which I hope it might be able to do.
Earl Howe
Well, my Lords, if I could repay the compliment to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, he has very eloquently presented the case for the Government to go away and think further about this, which indeed we will do. I come back to what I said at the beginning of this debate: the message from this Committee has been delivered loudly and clearly. I am grateful to noble Lords for that. I say again that the Government’s mind is not closed on this issue.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
As one of those who are not quite so eloquent but are equally committed to the cause, I think that the Government would be in a far better position if we had some timescale. We now know when Report stage is likely. I am much attracted to what the Minister said. I would much prefer that we had a universal position that protected adults as well as children because of, as he said, the influence that adults have on children. Many more noble Lords might, like me, be influenced if they knew that something was likely to happen. The anxiety is that, unless we press this, nothing will happen.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, it falls to me to respond. I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I am grateful that nobody has spoken against the amendment that would prevent people smoking in cars when children were there. The evidence is overwhelming. This must fall squarely within this Bill; it is about protecting children from harm. If I may draw on the analogy of a tin box used by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that would be classified without doubt as child abuse. It would fall to the police to prosecute in such a case—indeed, with other traffic offences, it falls to the police.
I was intrigued to hear that the Minister places so much faith in the public education campaign and cites cost of enforcement as a problem. How much has the public education campaign cost in total, including its evaluation, and what are the cost estimates for the police?
In Wales there has been a public education campaign since 2012 to try to stop people smoking in cars when children are present, and it is currently being evaluated. I live there and I can tell noble Lords that it is not working. In supermarket car parks you see children being offloaded into the back of the car, the shopping offloaded into the boot and a cigarette offloaded out of a packet into the driver’s mouth before they set off. I would dearly love to tap on the car windows of those people and say, “You can’t do that” because they are endangering the children in the vehicle. I also refute the notion that it would be very difficult to identify who is smoking when there are children in the car. The Government are committed to children’s health and well-being and have shown that commitment in many different ways—for example, through sporting initiatives—yet they allow a practice to continue which permanently damages children’s lungs and physical development and leads to premature death in some cases. Indeed, the instances involving asthma sufferers cannot be ignored.
I remind the Minister that the legislation on smoking in public places has brought about huge behavioural change and been extremely successful. I have been repeatedly thanked for that legislation by smokers and non-smokers, as must have happened to other noble Lords who campaigned prior to that legislation going through. That legislation has made it easier for them to attempt to stop smoking or to cut down. I can honestly say that nobody has been angry with me about the legislation having gone through, although some anger was shown when it was being discussed.
I was intrigued by the Minister’s comment about the complexity of Amendment 264 vis-à-vis producing standardised packaging. He may not wish to comment on the detail of it, although I am happy to give way if he does. However, I hope that he will meet me and other Peers who are interested in this issue to explain what problems may arise in this area. I am grateful to him for his critique of the amendment and see exactly what he means. We certainly need to take it away, redraft it and bring it back on Report. We do not want to make it harder for retailers who sell other things to children, such as comics, by differentiating and having some kind of two-tier system.
As regards the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, in relation to illicit products, Margaret Hodge, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, found that the illicit market reduced from 20% to 9% between 2000 and 2012-13. The 9% figure applied also to 2010-11, although it dipped to 7% in one year. Margaret Hodge commented that the tobacco manufacturers are complicit in this illicit trade by,
“supplying more of their products to European countries than the legitimate market in those countries could possibly require. The tobacco then finds its way back into the UK market without tax being paid. The supply of some brands of hand-rolling tobacco to some countries in 2011 exceeded legitimate demand by 240%”.
I understand that oversupply to Ukraine has been identified, which fuels a £2 billion black market that has reached across the EU, and that in 2011 Japan Tobacco International was investigated and is now under official investigation by the European anti-fraud office. So I am afraid that it is not a nice story. I am not certain that the argument about revenue saved can possibly be stacked up against the cost of lives shortened, health damaged, children left orphaned and all the other things that we know go on. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment but we will be coming back to it at the next stage of the Bill.
“(7) Entitlements provided by regulations made under this section may be transferred to another family member or other related party in the following exceptional circumstances—
(a) where a mother is incapacitated;(b) where a medical practitioner prescribes that the mother is unable to look after the child; or(c) where the mother dies in childbirth.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, we have moved on to Part 6 which has been greatly anticipated on my side of the House and, I am sure, with equal enthusiasm and excitement by my noble friend the Minister. We have a substantial number of amendments to get through and I know there is pressure on all sides to try to complete this within the time. We will do what we can to achieve that but there are still some very important issues that we want to pick up and I make no excuse if we spend some time debating them. Having said that, I reassure the Minister that, by and large, the Opposition are very pleased to see many of the measures that are proposed in these parts of the Bill. We have comments for discussion and we will do our obvious constitutional duty to scrutinise those things that are there, but we are not making major objections to them. We seek to refine, occasionally to add and perhaps to probe the Government a bit more on some of the reasons why things do not appear as we would like them to. I am also grateful to the Minister for allowing us a chance to talk to him and the Bill team which was very useful.
Amendment 266AZA would ensure that there is flexibility in the legislation for exceptional circumstances. The purpose is to ensure that if children need to be looked after in exceptional circumstances, the parental leave enabled by the substantive clauses can be allocated to someone else such as a grandparent, an aunt, an uncle or even the father if he would not ordinarily qualify.
It does not take much to imagine how devastating exceptional circumstances could be. It may be that the mother becomes incapacitated, very ill or even dies in childbirth, or that there is some other complication such as a late-pregnancy stillbirth—something that my mother suffered—that will require urgent and immediate assistance but also longer-term assistance over the period covered by the shared parental leave. At present they would be able to take only a limited amount of time—almost certainly unpaid time off for dependants—if indeed it were granted by their employer.
Similarly, there may be circumstances in couple families where the mother is unwell but the father does not qualify for shared leave to care for the new baby. The Bill should make provision for exceptional circumstances when shared parental leave and pay could be transferred in such difficult and, as I have said, exceptional circumstances. Surely we ought to be doing everything that we can to support families in these circumstances.
We had a previous meeting with the Minister in which we had a brief discussion on this point, and I have read the response of his honourable friend in the other place. I understand that he may feel that the amendment could distract from the main thrust of the Bill and that his initial position may be that the Government do not expect parties who are not parents or partners to share parental leave. I also fully understand, to anticipate other amendments due to come up shortly, that the Government do not want to weaken the engagement of fathers in raising their children. We accept that there is strong evidence that the early engagement of fathers in caring for their children leads to positive outcomes for children. However, the amendment is really about exceptional circumstances, already outlined, in which other statutory provisions may just not work or, if they did work, would not be sufficient, as in the case of a late stillborn child, where of course by definition shared leave cannot be invoked.
If the Government cannot accept this amendment—although I hope that they will—perhaps the Minister will acknowledge that they might consider using the provision under the new sections in the Bill to make regulations for these sorts of extenuating circumstances. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, for bringing this matter to the attention of the Committee, and for his broad support for the shared parental leave provisions.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 266AZA proposes that in certain prescribed circumstances, other family members or related parties should become entitled to shared parental leave. The circumstances that he has outlined include where a mother is incapacitated, where a medical practitioner prescribes that the mother is unable to care for her child, and where the mother dies in childbirth.
Nobody would wish for any family to have to deal with these difficult and sometimes tragic situations. Unfortunately, many families have no choice. The challenge of looking after a very young child in these situations may be overwhelming. Often relatives or family friends step in to help those concerned, and it is important that we recognise the extremely important contribution that these individuals make, often in particularly challenging circumstances.
However, it is essential to remember what the introduction of a new system of shared parental leave and pay is aiming to achieve. This policy aims to facilitate shared parenting. This means encouraging greater paternal involvement. Many fathers want to be more involved in the upbringing of their children, and there is clear evidence that this brings real benefits not only to the parents but to children and young people themselves.
In the circumstances that have been raised during this debate, shared parenting—in a very literal sense—is not possible. The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, would enable the sharing of leave with another family member or related party when the mother is unable to care for her child, either through incapacity, illness or death.
The way in which shared parental leave may be taken in circumstances where the mother dies will be set out in regulations. For the benefit of the Committee, I will outline how the Government envisage that this will work. If the mother dies before the parents have opted in to the new system—for example, if she dies during childbirth—an eligible father or partner will become entitled to the full balance of shared parental leave and pay. If the parents have already opted in to the new system, any outstanding leave and pay for which the mother was eligible will become available to the father or partner, if he is eligible.
The Government do not intend to make equivalent provisions where the mother is incapacitated or where a medical practitioner prescribes that a mother is unable to look after her child. This is because the mother may need to remain on maternity leave, or may make a recovery and wish to use the balance of her shared parental leave in the way in which she had originally envisaged. It may not always be possible to determine how permanent a change in situation is.
The Government recognise the extremely valuable contribution that relatives and friends make to support families at a difficult time. However, we do not believe that these individuals should become entitled to shared parental leave and pay. It is essential that we send the right message to fathers that their role as a parent is as important and valued as that of the mother.
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss these issues with the Committee and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his reply, which was not unexpected. I return to my original point: this is really a question of humanity and trying to recognise extreme circumstances. I asked the Minister to consider whether some of the aspirations in this amendment could be met within the general flexibility that is provided elsewhere in the Bill, but he declined to say that he would. Of course, it still exists so one can still hope that that message will be recalled when and if these issues come up. To be perfectly frank, there are circumstances in which fathers who have not had the statutory 26 weeks’ employment at the requisite rates within a single employer simply cannot get eligibility for the sort of leave that would come up under these exceptional circumstances. Sadly, these people will miss out, so there is a gap. We shall reflect on what has been said and read carefully what has been opined to the Committee and may come back to it, but in the interim I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(8) Regulations under section 75E may provide for the taking of leave under section 75E in a single period, or in non-consecutive periods, or in periods shorter than the period which constitutes, for the employee, a week’s leave.”
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 266AA would introduce regulations to enable shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, if desired, rather than in blocks of at least a week. I am grateful to Working Families for its assistance with this amendment, which has the support of a long list of organisations, and to the noble Viscount for meeting me and Adrienne Burgess of the Fatherhood Institute recently.
The amendment attempts to hold the Government to their original proposal in the Modern Workplaces consultation: that parents would be able to take the new form of leave in,
“smaller chunks or on a part-time basis”,
if their employer agreed. This was warmly welcomed by both family organisations and employers, yet the Bill reverts to a minimum period of a week at a time. There are many arguments in favour of part-time leave, which is a feature of many parental leave schemes elsewhere in Europe. It would help low-income parents who may not be able to afford full-week periods of leave for any length of time. The TUC points out this week that inadequate financial support for new parents impacts disproportionately on low-income families. Indeed, more flexible leave that could be used to complement part-time work was proposed in a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report on tackling in-work poverty published just last week.
It would allow for a smooth transition back to work, which could make it easier to settle children into childcare. It could encourage fathers, who might be reluctant to take a full-time block of leave, to take parental leave. In doing so, it could help usher in the change of culture of redefining early parenting as a joint responsibility that the Government keep talking about and that many of us want to see. I shall expand on this when I move Amendment 266B. It could provide parents with flexibility and could make it easier for employers. It is worth noting that, in a recent survey by the Family and Childcare Trust, flexible working was parents’ top priority for improving the quality of family life. This is just one aspect of flexible working, but it is an important one.
The Government have said that they are sympathetic to the idea but are concerned at the administrative complexity involved. They have suggested an extension of keeping-in-touch days as an alternative solution. While such an extension is welcome, it is not a substitute for part-time leave. Parents do not have to be paid for attending keeping-in-touch days, which are designed for a different purpose.
If the Government are genuinely open to the idea of part-time leave, surely it would make sense to make provision for it to be introduced at a later date by secondary legislation, once it has found a way through the administrative hurdles. I therefore hope that the Minister will be willing to take this away and give it further consideration. I cannot believe that where there is a political will there is no legislative and administrative way. If the Minister is not prepared to consider taking such regulation-making powers, I can only assume that there is no political will to inject this important element of flexibility into the parental leave scheme, despite the fact that flexibility lies at the heart of the scheme’s policy objectives as set out in the impact statement. I beg to move.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, to explain why I am sympathetic to this amendment, while I am supportive of what the Government are seeking to do through shared parental leave, which is absolutely right, the amendment raises two particularly important points. One is the position of parents on low incomes who will find it difficult to afford long periods of leave, particularly if they are working at less than the minimum wage. We know that the number of people working at, or even below, the minimum wage is significant.
Secondly, the amendment would allow that smooth transition back into work which may help children settle into childcare. From the work that I have done in other contexts around childcare, it is clear that it helps some children to be eased into childcare on a part-time basis, rather than going for a whole week’s worth. For those two reasons, I am particularly sympathetic and attracted to the amendment, although I cannot pretend to have been involved in all the detailed thinking around it.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I support my noble friend Lady Lister in her amendment and have added my name to it. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for her contribution to this debate. This matter seems central to the thrust of this section of the Bill and it seems odd that the logic set out in the original consultation paper and impact assessment has not been brought to a proper resolution within the Bill.
Two issues are clearly at play here. It seems perverse not to permit people who may have a complicated and difficult transition between full-time caring and going to work to do that in chunks of less than a week. Although this has been explained to me by two notable experts, I still do not quite get why it is so difficult to calculate pay in terms of less than a week. I understand the complications of doing it on a shared-parenting basis, because there are two sets of employers and two sets of payments to be looked at and, obviously, the Government are the third person in the room. Even so, when I was last involved in serious payroll work, we had pretty good figures for what it cost to operate in terms of an hour, a day or a week. That came up particularly in relation to strike action. I am sure that the noble Viscount will have been in similar situations, although I am sure that workers in his businesses were never on strike against him. However, when workers go on strike and you have to deduct pay for it, you have to work out exactly what it is, otherwise you get into trouble. In the systems that I was operating, we had a clear view of what the cost was at that level. If you can calculate what it costs per hour to employ somebody, you can presumably also make the system flexible enough to allow them to work in less-than-week blocks, which is one of the proposals in the amendment. On part-time leave, all the points have been made and I support them.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the Government understand the intention behind the amendment and I am glad of the opportunity to have this short debate on the issue today. Before I respond to this specific amendment, I should like to take a moment to set out the rationale behind the introduction of shared parental leave and the importance of these changes for families. Bearing in mind the tenor of the comments made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about brevity, I shall attempt to be brief.
The restrictions in the current maternity and paternity system are outdated and do not reflect the way in which modern families want to raise their children. They compel mothers to take the bulk of the time off and give fathers no choice but to stay at work in the early stages of their child’s life. This approach maintains the outdated perception that a mother’s place is in the home and a father’s place is at work. It is known to damage women’s career prospects, because employers expect young women to take large amounts of time out of the workplace to raise children. It can also mean that mothers feel unsupported in caring for a child, and fathers do not feel involved in their child’s upbringing.
It is right that mothers are able to take all the leave that they need to recover from birth and to bond with their new baby. However, they should be able to return to work without sacrificing the rest of their leave. This should be available to the family to use in whatever way they choose. For some families, this will mean that the father takes on the majority of the caring responsibilities very shortly after birth. For others, it will mean mixing periods of work with periods of leave to share childcare. This Bill will make this possible for the first time. The introduction of shared parental leave and pay aims to give families flexibility in how they share childcare when they have a baby. The current arrangements are rigid and inflexible, enabling only one parent to take leave at a time and allowing parents only to “take it in turns” to care for their child.
The changes introduced by the Bill will enable parents to take leave in blocks as small as one week and will remove the restriction on parents taking leave together. The Modern Workplaces consultation, which the Government published in May 2011, set out the Government’s ambition for leave to be taken in blocks of less than a week to allow parents to take leave on a part-time basis. Unfortunately, in this instance, this worthy ambition has not been possible. I will explain why.
The UK has one of the most flexible labour markets in the world. UK employment legislation gives employers and employees freedom to agree individual contracts between themselves, without restricting them to set working hours or working patterns. Shared parental leave is flexible. It will allow parents to choose how to share it between themselves and to take leave as an individual right, in discussion with their employer. This variation in working arrangements creates a difficulty when trying to allow shared parental leave and pay to be taken in part-week blocks.
Here, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, over the mathematical calculations. One parent may have a standard working week of 37 hours a week, or 7.2 hours per day, and their partner may work 16 hours per week working two eight-hour days. Calculating the ratio of the weekly entitlement to shared parental pay that should be paid when an individual takes one day off would be complex for an employer. However, this is magnified when a parent decides to transfer their remaining part-week entitlement to their partner for them to use. It would be even harder for small businesses, without access to an HR resource, to administer. The Government are mindful that shared parental leave and pay will be an innovative system. To add into the new system the facility to take leave and pay in periods of less than a week risks creating significant additional costs and burdens for employers.
The Government instead propose to allow shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, using a principle that is already well used and understood by employers. Under existing maternity leave provisions, mothers are able to return to work for 10 individual working days without ending their maternity leave or losing their entitlement to maternity pay for that week. These are called keep-in-touch, or KIT, days. The Government propose to give parents on shared parental leave additional keep-in-touch-style days to allow part-time working on shared parental leave without affecting entitlement to statutory shared parental pay. It is intended that these days will have a different name in the context of shared parental leave, which I hope addresses one of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, because the intention for shared parental leave would be different from the intention for maternity leave. The name would reflect the fact that these days can be used to achieve a part-time working pattern or a staggered return from shared parental leave.
The Government are aware that some interested parties, such as the TUC, are concerned that there is no requirement on an employer to pay an employee more than their statutory payment when they are taking a keep-in-touch day. The Government will provide guidance to employers on how to use these provisions and will strongly encourage employers to pay an employee their full contractual rate if they work on a keep–in-touch day.
The Government believe that it is important to maintain the flexibility in keep-in-touch days to allow parents to return to the workplace for short visits. The Government do not wish to discourage these sorts of visits by forcing an employer to pay an employee’s contractual rate. However, where an employee is undertaking work, it is appropriate that that employee is paid accordingly. Keep-in-touch days are entirely discretionary for both an employee and employer to use. An employer cannot insist that an employee uses a keep-in-touch day and an employee cannot insist that their employer allows them to work part-time by using a keep-in-touch day.
As I have mentioned, shared parental leave and pay is an innovative system and will need time to bed down. It is right that proposals for leave and pay to be taken in periods of less than a week should be considered alongside any review of the shared parental leave system. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked why we do not take powers in the Bill to allow shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, to be set out, in effect, in regulation. The Government are sympathetic to this proposal but without a clear policy to enable the shared parental leave to be taken part-time, regulations cannot be designed at this time. My department has explored this fully and will continue to consider it as part of the review of shared parental leave.
I hope that reassures the noble Baroness that the Government share her ambition and I ask her to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and my noble friend Lord Stevenson for their support for this amendment. The noble Baroness’s own experience is extremely important in terms of easing children back into childcare.
I will say more about this when I speak to my next amendment but I very much share the Government’s philosophy, as set out by the Minister, on shared parental leave. That is why I am so disappointed that they are not willing to go that little bit further.
I can see that there are administrative difficulties; I am not convinced that they cannot be sorted out. I am slightly encouraged by what the Minister said about changing the name of the keep-in-touch days and sending out guidance to employers about payment. I do not know whether the Minister has any figures now—perhaps he could let me know—on what proportion of such days are paid at present. It would be quite helpful to know that, perhaps before Report, in case we want to come back to this matter.
No one is asking for these regulations to be drafted now. Quite often a Bill will go through and regulations are not drafted for some time afterwards. Would it not be easier to put them in the Bill now? Even if nothing is done until the review takes place, at least they are there without having to legislate again, if by that time it becomes clear that part-time leave is really necessary for the shared parental leave provisions to fulfil the goals that we share with the Government. I hope that the Minister might be willing to think again about that. We are not asking for those regulations to be laid now, simply that the framework is there to enable flexibility in the future. On that basis, I withdraw the amendment.
Lord Touhig
“( ) Where, during an employee’s shared parental leave, it is not reasonably practicable by reason of redundancy for the employer to continue to employ him or her under an existing contract of employment, the employee is entitled to be offered a suitable alternative vacancy that arises during the shared parental leave period.
( ) The shared parental leave period means the period from the date of notification of intention to take shared parental leave, ending at 52 weeks from the birth of the employee’s baby.
( ) Where there is a suitable alternative vacancy with the employer or his successor or an associated employer, it must be offered before the end of the existing contract of employment and takes effect immediately on the ending of the previous contract.
( ) The new contract of employment must be both suitable work for the employee and appropriate for him or her to do in the circumstances and its provisions as to the capacity and place in which he or she is to be employed, and as to the other terms and conditions of employment are not substantially less favourable than if he or she had continued to be employed under the previous contract.”
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, the purpose of my Amendment 266AAA is to replicate vital existing protections afforded to women on maternity leave within the new system of shared parental leave. It provides protection to parents for the entire period during which they are entitled to take shared parental leave, rather than simply the period when they are actually away on leave. The amendment replicates the approach taken by Regulation 10 of the Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999. This states that in the case of a redundancy, women on maternity leave must be offered any appropriate alternative vacancy. Such protections have been crucial in giving women the confidence to take the statutory maternity leave to which they are entitled, thus overcoming the fear that in so doing they may be adversely affecting their job or career prospects.
It is important that the new system of shared parental leave allows parents to feel a similar level of confidence when taking leave. The intention of the new system is that parents can take leave in short, discontinuous blocks. Consequently, for this to happen, protection must not be limited to those periods when a parent is actually on leave, as this would discourage parents from using the new system of shared parental leave in the way in which the Government hope and intend that it should operate.
The importance of designing appropriate protections for parents taking leave under the new system has already been acknowledged by Ministers in the other place. This amendment not only creates the necessary protections to ensure that parents have the confidence to use the new system of shared leave as intended but creates a system of protections that is easy for both employee and employer to understand. The clarity and scope of the protection offered by this amendment will give parents the confidence they need to fully utilise this new scheme of shared parental leave. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, Amendments 266AB, 266AC and 266C in this group stand in my name. Taken together, these would ensure that existing protections in relation to redundancy and leave are not lost by requiring rather than permitting regulations regarding redundancy during shared parental leave to be made and to include provision requiring an employer to offer alternative employment.
Amendment 266C would enable a parent who has taken a period of leave of 26 weeks or less to return to the same job, and not just a job within the same employer. My noble friend Lord Touhig has set out the general case for where these amendments would take us. I would like to pick up a particular aspect of that which is the growing concern about discrimination. Maternity rights and employment regulations that enable parents to balance work and family responsibilities have been key drivers in giving women greater access to work and, importantly, an independent income. Over the past few decades, thanks in no small part to changes to workplace protections, women have entered and stayed in the labour market in unprecedented numbers. However, there is still far to go. Our workplaces have not adapted to meet the needs of this changing and gender-diverse workforce. Women pay a penalty in the workplace as a result of spending time away from the labour market to have and care for children, and this time away often negatively affects future career prospects and earnings. This “motherhood penalty” helps hold the glass ceiling intact and reproduces gender stereotypes about women as the “caring sex” that fuel occupational segregation, to which the Minister referred in a previous debate. People often talk about jobs being characterised as men’s or women’s work. For too many women, this still culminates in pregnancy discrimination more generally in the workplace.
One of the cumulative impacts of the effects of the “motherhood penalty” is that it ultimately leads to a lack of women in positions of power at the top of all quarters of political, public and professional life. We surely all feel that that is out of date. Even before the recession began, it was estimated by the Equal Opportunities Commission that up to 30,000 women lost their jobs due to pregnancy discrimination each year. There has been no similar research into the incidence of pregnancy discrimination following the economic downturn, but all the indications are that it has increased significantly. In times of austerity, when employers cannot afford to take any perceived risk to making profit and growing business, discrimination against women in the workplace is likely to rise as women, particularly of child bearing age, appear to be the riskier and less affordable choice for employers.
Working Families, which has been helping us with research in this area, has evidence that many women are subject to discrimination while pregnant or on maternity leave. Its helpline report provides evidence of a hardening of attitudes among employers and more blatant discrimination taking place. This includes women being sidelined or left out when promotions are being considered, demoted on return from maternity leave, and in some cases women suffer harassment and pregnant workers are sacked. These are unacceptable practices and these amendments would help to remedy them.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I am glad that these amendments give us the opportunity to debate the detail of how shared parental leave will work in practice for families. Shared parental leave will offer families new choice and flexibility about how they manage their childcare arrangements in the first months of a child’s life. It is true that this opportunity will be used by parents only if they feel confident that they will continue to be treated fairly in the workplace when they return.
Current maternity and additional paternity leave provisions provide protections to parents against dismissal; additional support when parents are absent from the workplace during a redundancy process; and the right to return to work into the same job, or in certain cases if that is not reasonably practicable, a similar job that is suitable for them and of equal standing. These protections are important to parents and will directly influence the decisions they make in whether to take maternity or paternity leave. Mothers on maternity leave and fathers taking additional paternity leave currently have protection from detriment while taking leave. Parents taking leave also have the right to be offered a suitable alternative vacancy in a redundancy situation, where there is one available. This alternative must be suitable and appropriate for the individual.
The Government recognise that it is important to provide employees with protection from discrimination and detriment when they are absent from the workplace for parental reasons. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for raising this. I believe that we think alike on this important issue. Furthermore the Government believe that pregnancy discrimination and discrimination against parents taking leave to care for their children is unacceptable in any form. This is why the Government have recently announced new research into the attitudes of employers on pregnancy and maternity leave as well as the prevalence and causes of pregnancy discrimination in the workplace. This research will be jointly funded by the Commission for Equalities and Human Rights, the Government Equalities Office and my department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
I would like to reassure the Committee that the Government intend to make regulations to provide appropriate protections for employees in the case of shared parental leave. The Government recognise that it is important to provide protections for parents who are absent from the workplace on parental leave and are currently considering the most appropriate way to protect parents taking shared parental leave from being disadvantaged in a redundancy situation. The Government intend to publish draft regulations in the coming months on all key elements of the shared parental leave policy. This will include the details of the protections while on shared parental leave. The Government’s approach will recognise the difficulties that parents may face when taking shared parental leave. Any protections will be proportionate to support parents in an effective way, enabling them to take leave with confidence that they will not be disadvantaged. This will be balanced with the needs of employers to be able to manage their employees effectively.
I turn now to the right to return to the same job. Mothers returning from a period of ordinary maternity leave have the right to return to the same job. This protection is also applied to fathers taking additional paternity leave. Where mothers return to work after a period of additional maternity leave they have the right to return to the same job, or where this is not reasonably practicable, the right to return to a similar job which is suitable and appropriate, the point that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, made earlier. The Government consulted on how to apply these important protections to parents taking shared parental leave in an appropriate manner. Shared parental leave will create different challenges for employers. An employee will be able to take short, discontinuous absences from the workplace under shared parental leave and this means that employers will have more opportunity to engage an employee in any reorganisation at work while they are in the office.
The Government are currently carefully considering the responses to the consultation on the administration of shared parental leave. This includes how to apply the right to return to the same job to parents taking shared parental leave. I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Touhig, for bringing this important matter to the attention of the Committee, but I hope they are reassured that the Government intend to provide protections for parents taking shared parental leave, and the commitment that the details of this will be set out in regulations in the coming months. In the mean time, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, in what seems an age ago now, I was once the Labour Party parliamentary candidate in Richmond upon Thames and I was invited to address a conference of Labour women. I saw the hackles go up when I said that, as a country, we were wasting a fortune educating women because when they complete their education we put every barrier in their way to stop them getting a job and having a family which, as a man, I take for granted. We still have a long way to go to make sure there is fairness and equality for women in the workplace. I am encouraged by what the Minister says about how we might see the hopes of the amendments tabled by myself and my noble friend Lord Stevenson realised in regulations. All I can say to him when he draws up his regulations is to think of the Welsh “chwarae teg”—fair play. That is all we are asking for. I beg to withdraw the amendment.
“Rights to father quota of leave
(1) In Part 8 of the Employment Rights Act 1996, after section 80E insert—
“80EA Entitlement to father quota
(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations entitling an employee who satisfies specified conditions as to the relationship with a child or expected child or with the child’s mother to be absent from work on leave under this subsection for the purpose of caring for the child.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) shall provide that such leave shall be taken before the end of a period of 56 weeks beginning with the date of the child’s birth.
(3) Provision under subsection (1) shall secure that where an employee is entitled to leave under this section in respect of a child he is entitled to at least four weeks’ leave.”
(2) In the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, after section 171ZT insert—
“171ZTA Entitlement to father quota
(1) Regulations shall provide that where an employee is entitled to a father quota of leave under section 75E of the Employment Rights Act 1996, the employee is to be entitled to payments known as “father quota pay”.
(2) Father quota pay under subsection (1) shall be at the earnings related weekly rate of 90 per cent of the employee’s average earnings for the first six weeks in respect of which it is payable, followed by a fixed weekly rate thereafter which shall not be less than the weekly rate of the full time national minimum wage in respect of the remaining portion of the father quota pay period.””
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, Amendments 266B and 266CA concern the father’s entitlement to and use of parental leave. Amendment 266B paves the way, again by means of secondary legislation, for a father quota. Such a quota would provide a father with an independent right to at least four weeks’ parental leave at 90% of his earnings for up to six weeks.
This is a probing amendment designed to air the issues, so I do not propose that we go into the precise wording. I am grateful to the Fatherhood Institute and Working Families for their support on the amendment, which also has the support of a long list of other organisations, and to the noble Viscount for engaging so constructively both in writing and in person. Lastly, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, for adding her name to the amendment, but she apologises that she cannot be here today for family reasons.
In my academic work on women’s citizenship in the broad sense of the term, I have concluded that women will achieve genuine equality in the public sphere of the labour market and the polis only when men play a greater role in the private domestic sphere of the home. To take one example, unequal sharing of caring work between the sexes has been identified as the largest single driver of the gender pay gap. Shifting what is called in academic jargon the “gender division of labour” is therefore critical to gender equality. As my noble friend Lord Touhig has just pointed out, we still have a long way to go.
From the perspective of children, the Minister acknowledged in his letter to me the important role that fathers have to play in childcare and the beneficial impact of their involvement in the early stages of their child’s life. Indeed, he has reiterated the point today. There is no disagreement between us on the end goal of enabling and encouraging fathers to be more closely involved in the care of their children, be that from the perspective of gender equality or the best interests of the child—or, as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report that I mentioned argued, tackling in-work poverty among families with children.
The cross-national evidence suggests that a key policy lever to achieve this goal is to preserve a period of adequately paid parental leave for fathers on a “use it or lose it” basis. A European Commission document on the role of men in gender equality states that,
“the ‘nordic’ model of parental leave (‘father quota’) has been adapted and implemented with growing success”,
and recommends its adoption across the Union. Even Germany, which hung on to a male breadwinner model longer than many other European countries, has gone down this path and, like a number of other countries, has added a bonus to the overall length of paid leave if the father takes a specified period. The UK is in danger of becoming a European laggard when it comes to a forward-looking parental leave policy.
The coalition Government’s Modern Workplaces consultation placed great emphasis on the value of shared parenting and proposed just such a scheme as a means of encouraging fathers to play a more active role in their children’s upbringing. It observed that,
“international evidence suggests that fathers’ usage of parental leave is higher under schemes that offer them targeted or reserved leave as opposed to just making shared leave available to the father”.
In Iceland and Norway, fathers using parental leave increased from tiny proportions to 80% and 90% respectively following the introduction of reserved leave. Iceland is particularly interesting because it provides for three months each for the mother and the father and three months to be shared between them as they wish, and it has just been agreed unanimously to move to a five-plus-five-plus-two model because it has been so successful. The average number of days of leave taken by fathers more than doubled between 2001 and 2008 as a result. According to the World Economic Forum, Iceland now ranks first in the world for gender equality.
More generally, the latest issue of the International Review of Leave Policies and Related Research conducted by the International Network on Leave Policies and Research concludes that it is striking that fathers’ use of leave responds to policy changes. There is also evidence to suggest that the more the father is involved when the child is very young, the more involved he is likely to be as the child grows older, to the benefit of fathers, mothers and children. Of course, as the Fatherhood Institute concedes, it is not possible to prove a causal relationship, but it suggests that the association is strong and consistent.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, I am sympathetic to the thinking behind the amendment. The idea of a “father quota”—an independent right for fathers to at least four weeks of leave—could be important if we are to achieve our aim, which the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, set out clearly and which is all about changing the culture.
There are two aspects of the culture that need to be changed. One is the expectation within the workplace, on the part of both employees and employers, about who is going to take parental leave. The burden is so much on the mother at the moment that the new legislation, which I strongly support, could make a reality of encouraging fathers to take parental leave and be much more involved in the early days and weeks of looking after newborn babies and children in their first year.
The second culture change that we are looking for is a different way for couples to decide how they are going to juggle bringing up their children and their work responsibilities—something that many people struggle with. We all know that it is not easy. What the Government are proposing is very helpful, but I want to see something that is going to provide that additional incentive to fathers to take this up. I really like the phrase “use it or lose it” because it says clearly what we are trying to do here.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, went through the evidence comprehensively, so I certainly do not intend to repeat that. When I reviewed the evidence, I was particularly struck by the impact that this had had in the nordic countries. It really seemed to be the thing that made the difference and started to tip the balance to get that culture change. If we really are trying to encourage fathers to take up leave—I think all of us here want to do that, judging by what has been said so far today—we need to take some heed of the international evidence of what works.
Baroness Meacher (CB)
My Lords, I will speak very briefly, having not participated in this Bill because of other commitments, in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. As others have said, we are pressing here for a change of culture. We are looking for fathers to play a much more active role in the upbringing of their children. Clearly, as my noble friend Lady Lister has rightly said, if fathers are involved right at the beginning, they bond with the baby and will then be much more involved throughout the child’s early life. This has to be good. In my view, we are seeing that change of culture: more and more fathers are bonding with children in the early stages and being much more involved throughout the child’s life.
I want to put on record the link between this and what I regard as the Government’s very helpful inclusion in this Bill of a recognition of the equal importance of both parents to a child if the tragedy of divorce strikes. If you involve fathers very closely at the beginning of a child’s life, they bond, they become involved and they care for that child, but they are cut out after a divorce—which happens, as we know, all too often in this country year after year. This is actually very cruel. Maybe it was okay in the old days for men to remain outside the family, unattached, but if we are all working towards greater equality of mothers and fathers in terms of their involvement in the family—and therefore greater equality for women in the workplace—we have to follow through, as I believe the Government are trying to do, to the post-divorce situation, should that tragedy arrive. Having been through it myself, I know exactly how that feels for everybody. I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, but it is very important to see these two parts of the Bill joined up.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is a very interesting area, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Lister for bringing her expertise to bear on it and for analysing the case so well. It is curious that we are stuck on the horns of a dilemma here. We all agree that we are trying to bring in a new system which rightly promotes joint responsibility for children, in terms of the various histories that we have heard about already, and the future we wish to carve out in our country in which parents jointly take greater responsibility.
The underlying strain in that point, which has been brought up by the two recent conclusions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Meacher, is that we are coming from a position where fathers have not actively played a part, although there are notable exceptions and some of those might be present today. However, the generality which is revealed by the research is that fathers, despite what has been available to them up to now, have not taken advantage of it and, to misquote an earlier comment, they have “lost it”, in the sense that they have not taken what is available.
We have a reasonable expectation that the new arrangements will be a step in the right direction. However, will they be enough? That is the question. In particular, I was struck by the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about divorce situations, which we regret but which are a natural part of all this. Without the bonding early on or even quite late on in the growth of the child, the loss of the relationship between fathers, mothers and children in a divorce is tragic and will have a lifelong impact.
There is a big picture here; there is a lot of activity and change. This is a new system and the Government are rightly defensive of it, but the Achilles heel in their approach is the statement in the impact assessment that the take-up of the proposed new shared parental leave by fathers is expected to be very low—this has been mentioned already—at between 2% and 8% of those eligible, or between 5,700 and 22,800 fathers, representing less than 3% of all maternities a year. Is that really all that our expectations are for that? If it is, it is up to the Government to defend why that represents a satisfactory situation compared to the rhetoric that we have been listening to from the Minister, which tells of a glorious engagement of a much higher percentage where people would expect joint caring. It is not joint if only 2% or even 8% of those eligible are taking up what is available, and indeed are “losing it” if they do not.
It is indeed disappointing, as my noble friend Lady Lister has said, that the scheme of the parental leave model, which is good and which we support, seems to be suboptimal if it does not include anything new for fathers in their own right. It provides an enabling power for the Government to extend paternity pay by regulation, and there is already a power to extend paternity leave by regulation so it may be that the Minister can give us more hope that this will happen. However, the commitment does not seem to deliver the same outcome as the proposal in the amendment that we have just heard about. A father quota would mean that a father could take leave, as has been pointed out, on a much more flexible basis later on in the first year rather than in the early stages and perhaps even later, particularly when the mother is making the difficult transition back to work. The time would be at his choosing and the leave would not reduce the mother’s entitlement; those seem to be very important elements in this debate. I admit that I myself am not sure whether or not more is needed here but the case is certainly there to be answered, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says.
The second amendment in this group, Amendment 266CA, suggests that we bear down with laser-like intensity on the facts and watch what happens: we would see how many fathers are taking this up, whether it is 2%, 8% or better. We would look at the relatively poor pay that has been provided for this, and try to work out what is going on here. That is also an important element of the new proposals, and it would be wrong to let it pass without signalling that we are concerned about it.
As the Official Opposition, we cannot yet support what has been proposed because it is a big spending commitment; I accept that, so we are not doing so. However, we suggest that more information, research, reporting, discussion, debate and academic work would give us a better handle on this for future times. If the powers are there in the Bill to do something about it, we would be satisfied with that.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I welcome this debate because it is important to ensure that the changes made by the Bill provide the right framework for modern families and workplaces. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the tremendous work she has done in the field of gender equality, and I know that she speaks from a position of great experience when debating these issues. As we are on the subject of gender equality, the noble Baroness raised the issue of the gender pay gap, quite rightly, through encouraging fathers’ involvement in home life. The Government agree that this is extremely important. That is why we are extending paternity pay powers in this Bill and will look to extend paternity leave and pay at a later date if we need to encourage fathers’ take-up, but I will be saying a little bit more about that later in my comments.
Greater paternal involvement brings enormous benefits to parents and children. Fathers who are engaged in caring for their children early on, as has been mentioned, are much more likely to remain involved as their child grows up. This involvement means that their children benefit from better peer relationships, lower criminality, fewer behavioural problems, higher self-esteem and higher educational attainment and occupational mobility. The Government are aware of the international evidence that demonstrates that fathers are more likely to take leave if it is reserved specifically for them and paid at a higher rate. The Government’s original ambition to extend leave reserved exclusively for fathers was set out in their Modern Workplaces consultation, which has already been pointed out. It consulted on the concept of a so-called “daddy month”, which would have reserved a portion of shared parental leave for fathers in a very similar way to the “father quota” leave entitlement proposed in this amendment.
Unfortunately at this time it is not possible to realise this ambition. The challenging economic circumstances have made such an extension simply unaffordable. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, will not be too surprised when I mirror what was stated in a response in the other place. Now is not the time to place additional burdens on businesses and the Exchequer and I realise that this immediate response will be disappointing to the noble Baroness.
The new system of shared parental leave will give families unprecedented choice about how to share the leave entitlement in the early stages of their child’s life. The Government hope that the flexibility and choice provided by the new system of shared parental leave will mean that fathers will take more time off to care for their children. The Government plan to review the decision on whether to extend paternity leave and pay by using information on the take-up of shared parental leave and pay from the series of surveys on maternity and paternity rights and work-life balance. If fathers are not taking up the new entitlement, the Government will look to extending paternity leave and pay to encourage more fathers to take leave.
The Government are taking powers in this Bill to allow for the extension of paternity pay which would enable the Government to extend paternity leave and pay at a later date through secondary legislation. I want to make that clear to the Committee. To maintain simplicity in the system, the Government consider it more appropriate to extend leave to fathers through an extension of paternity leave rather than introducing a new type of statutory leave which would be complicated to administer. Paternity leave is reserved exclusively for fathers and is already well established and understood by fathers and employers.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, mentioned an annual review. An annual review of this policy may not be possible or appropriate. The shared parental leave policy aims to encourage a long-term culture change in the UK to enable and encourage shared parenting in the early months after birth. Any assessment of the outcomes of the policy needs to understand how employee and employer attitudes, as well as behaviours, are changing. There needs to be flexibility in how this is monitored. The best source of information to understand employee attitudes is through surveys of employers and employees. This data take longer to collate to ensure that the survey includes individuals who have experienced shared parental leave. The Government believe that this is the most appropriate information to inform decisions about the effectiveness of the policy.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and other noble Lords in the Committee raised a very important issue about culture and the culture change that was necessary. I agree completely that culture change is what we need to see and the Government agree that it is essential. We will provide supporting guidance as soon as we can to help this change happen and to encourage employers and employees to embrace it. The extent to which the culture change we all seek has come about will be a critical part of the review of these reforms once they have had time to bed in.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised the issue of the father’s quota. If it would help, we will write to her with more details on that, in addition to the letter that I have written. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why the level of take-up for fathers is estimated at between 2% and 8%. The impact assessment used figures from the maternity and paternity rights survey that I alluded to earlier in which fathers were asked whether they would like to take more time, if it was available. However, those are initial take-up estimates, and we hope that the culture change that I mentioned earlier will encourage a higher take-up in due course.
I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, who is not in her place today, are assured by the commitments that we have made. The Government will review the take-up of shared parental leave by fathers and consider extending paternity leave and pay in due course, to encourage fathers to take shared parental leave. Finally, I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that if paternity leave and pay is extended at a later date, the period within which it can be taken will also be extended. However, I hope, in the mean time, that she will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Meacher, for their support for this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, made a very important point about the workplace culture. The experience of some of the Nordic countries is that changing the workplace culture is crucial in encouraging fathers to take leave. There is a link between the right to parental leave and changing the culture, and I hope that the department will reflect further on that.
On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, it seems to me that if both parents were more involved in bringing up their children, it might keep them together. I am not sure whether there is any evidence to support that, but we know that conflicts about who does what in the home and so forth can contribute to breakdown. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Stevenson for going as far as he was able to in the context, as I know he is sympathetic. I think we are all sympathetic, including the Minister. It is frustrating because I feel like the Minister made my case, in a sense, very eloquently, but then drew back from it by refusing to take that extra step.
I think I heard the Minister correctly and that he has made the commitment I asked for, which was that if paternity leave is extended, it can be taken later. The Minister is nodding his head, and it is very helpful to have that on the record. We now know that if paternity leave is extended at a future date, it could be taken—I hope he is saying—at any point during the parental leave period. That will reassure organisations outside that have been campaigning on this.
Unless this is what he proposes to write to me about, the Minister did not respond to my question about what plans the Government have to encourage fathers to take shared parental leave and whether he would give a commitment to consult on such plans and study what has been happening. There is a wealth of expertise—not so much mine but within this network—about what is happening in other countries. Again, I think the Minister is nodding his head, so perhaps I could put into the record that he is prepared to consult with the network of experts about how to achieve this culture change, even if we cannot go the full way in terms of having “daddy leave” in the legislation. The Minister has been nodding and not shaking his head in response to everything I have said. Does he want to say anything more?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I will just confirm that, as part of the review, these issues will be looked at. It is extremely helpful to have the input and the views from the Nordic countries. I suspect that officials are already looking at that but it is helpful to be nudged in the right direction. We will certainly be looking at this in addition to the other aspects of the review.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I thank the Minister, but we do not want to wait for the review in 2017-18 before steps are taken to try to achieve this culture change. The culture change needs to be achieved alongside the introduction of shared parental leave. Again, I hope that a commitment will be made to thinking now about how to make that change, rather than waiting for a formal review. Unless the Minister has anything else he wants to add on this point, I will withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I rise only to say to the noble Baroness that I will be happy to continue these discussions with her. I stated earlier that I have not made a commitment to come back before 2018 and I would not want to do that today. Clearly, it is in everyone’s interests to make this work, and I have already said that we need more time than the noble Baroness has indicated in her remarks to ensure that the review comes through. However, we are happy to commit to consulting expert organisations both at home and abroad on how to achieve the culture change, which is something that I alluded to earlier.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I am grateful to the noble Viscount and for the constructive way in which he has engaged in this debate. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Touhig
“(za) in subsection (2) at the end there is inserted “for each child born as a result of the pregnancy in addition to the entitlement to allow the Secretary of State to regulate for additional maternity leave under section 73;”
Lord Touhig
My Lords, Amendments 266D and 266E deal with multiple births. Amendment 266D seeks to allow additional leave and Amendment 266E seeks to allow additional maternity pay, both in proportion to the number of births.
I believe that these amendments are necessary due to the intense additional pressures that parents of multiple births face over those of single births. As a grandfather of twins, I can certainly testify to the truth of that. Currently both groups receive the same entitlements to pay and leave. Maternal stays during birth admissions are 60% to 70% longer for multiple births than single births. Even prior to birth, expectant mothers of multiple births are six times more likely to be admitted into hospital and more than twice as likely to be admitted into intensive care as expectant mothers of single babies.
In addition, twins are 10 times more likely to be admitted to neonatal special care units; 44% of twins and 91% of triplets are born prematurely and spend time in neonatal care. On average, parents of multiple births spend a larger proportion of their maternity and paternity leave in neonatal units, and both mothers and children are more likely to face serious health complications. All this reduces the amount of time that parents have to bond with their children and settle into parental life. They have less time to do what parents of single children have to do, even though they have more children to do it with. It is an alarming fact that 20% of mothers of multiple births suffer from postnatal depression, double the proportion of mothers of single children.
Parents of multiple births do not merely face additional emotional and health issues but financial ones. They are far more likely to experience economic hardship in the first 18 months of their children’s lives than parents of a single child. A report published this year by the Twins and Multiple Births Association, titled Multiple Births Parents’ Experience of Maternity and Paternity Leave, revealed that 61% of respondents did not have enough maternity and paternity pay to cover the cost of their leave. In order to get by, 32% stated that they put money on their credit card and they could not pay it off in full at the end of the month. More than half the respondents built up debt and a quarter built up debt of more than £2,000.
It is abundantly clear that parents of multiple births face very real additional challenges compared to their peers. Nevertheless, the current system treats both groups in the same manner. These amendments seek to introduce an element of responsiveness within the system to the very real difficulties faced by those who experience multiple births, in order to create a modern system of maternity leave.
I hope that the Minister will also consider taking prematurity into account in maternity leave legislation. It could be achieved by simply using “babies expected” rather than their actual due date when calculating maternity leave. I hope he will respond to that. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, this is a long group, with a large number of amendments. It breaks into two parts. As I listened to my noble friend Lord Touhig’s very eloquent contribution on the question of multiple births, I wondered whether it might have been better to have a separate debate on each of them because the points he makes are very interesting and we do not want to lose them in consideration of other areas. I will plough on and hope that the Minister will deal with this group of amendments in two parts, even though I will be mixing them up in what I say.
The amendments in my name in this group remove the limit on fathers’ or secondary adoptive parents’ time off to attend antenatal appointments, which is currently restricted to two occasions of six and a half hours each. Amendments 267F and 267H introduce an alternative of “reasonable” time off for fathers or secondary adoptive parents. Amendment 267K proposes that additional time off should be provided for fathers or secondary adoptive parents where the pregnancy is of twins or multiple births, so in that sense it reaches out to the points that my noble friend Lord Touhig was making.
The introduction of time off for fathers and adoptive or surrogate parents to attend antenatal appointments is very welcome. However, the Bill not only limits the unpaid time off to just two appointments but prescribes the maximum amount of time that fathers can spend away from work to six and a half hours per appointment. The time limits should be determined by regulations—if at all—and should not be in the Bill.
I know it is a rule of thumb that Governments try to take Henry VIII powers whenever they can in legislation and Oppositions traditionally oppose them but I am afraid I am turning the cart round this time. I think the Government are being too detailed here. This area requires a sensitive regulatory approach; for example, the amount of time you need to go to an antenatal appointment largely reflects the complexity of the pregnancy and, indeed, whether it is a single or multiple pregnancy. If it is multiple, we know that that requires more scans. Having the time to do that is not just about the forthcoming child but is a chance for the other parent to be involved in looking after existing children.
We have a complicated situation here. We think it would be more sensible to try to find a formulation—which we have tried to set out in the amendments but we quite accept might need to be refined—under which fathers and secondary adoptive parents are allowed reasonable time off rather than only two appointments. After all, it is the case already that pregnant women are entitled to reasonable and paid time off to attend antenatal appointments, so we are looking for a bit of symmetry in that.
When we were having our second child, we had a rather complicated pregnancy, which took a lot of time, not just in travel to and from hospital but in the hospital and waiting times. I have personal experience of this and I understand the complications. I was lucky in that I was in charge of my own time and I could take the time off, but I recognise that if I had been responsible to another employer it might well have been difficult to get the sort of time that I felt was important to spend with my partner. I have a personal interest in that but it is not the determinant of my thinking. There is a broader issue here that the regulations would be a better place to do that.
I know that there will be arguments about the cost of absence and that employers may feel that, if nothing is put down, employees will take “sickies” and try to take more time than is required, but pregnancy is a complicated time. We should accept that there may be some rough edges to what one might want to do here, but the Government should try not to overspecify something that, by its very nature, will be more complicated and more reflective of the needs of the individuals concerned. I hope that these points will be taken into account.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for raising these important issues. Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I shall deal with the amendments in two parts.
I shall speak, first, about antenatal appointments and the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friend Lady Brinton. The Government wish to encourage the involvement of fathers and partners in pregnancy from the very earliest stages. Attendance at antenatal appointments forms a key part of this involvement. Research demonstrates that the greater the involvement of the father in the pregnancy, the more likely he is to remain an active father when the child is growing up.
Antenatal appointments are essential in all pregnancies to care for mother and baby. In cases where there are complications, they are particularly important. Complications during pregnancy may be associated with specific circumstances such as multiple pregnancies or existing health conditions.
Any pregnancy, however, can develop complications. This can happen at any stage and is always distressing for the parents involved. It is also likely to mean that the pregnant woman will need to attend additional antenatal appointments, often at short notice. Many fathers will wish to accompany their partners to these appointments to give practical and moral support. The Government wish to encourage them to do so.
Fathers and partners currently have no statutory right to time off to accompany their partner to an antenatal appointment. The changes that the Government are making in this Bill will enable all fathers who are employees or agency workers to take time off to attend antenatal appointments on two occasions. Equivalent provisions are also being introduced for adopters and certain intended parents in surrogacy arrangements. This is a significant step forward. It is important to emphasise that this provision is intended to provide a minimum standard to enable all fathers to take some time off to attend antenatal appointments with their partner.
Sixty-seven per cent of fathers currently take time off to attend antenatal appointments. Some are able to come to an informal arrangement with their employer; others may, for example, take annual leave or attend the appointment in the morning and make up time later in the afternoon. It is the Government’s hope that this right will encourage more fathers to take time off in addition to the time allowed.
The right to time off is capped at six-and-a-half hours per appointment. The Government want the amount of time off to which an employee is entitled to be reasonable to attend an appointment in their home area. Six-and-a-half hours represents half of the maximum working day under the terms of the working time directive. It is important to have a cap in order to be clear about what the maximum entitlement is and to avoid an employer having to go through a bureaucratic process to determine what is reasonable in the circumstances of their employee.
The introduction of this entitlement should help to create a culture change that makes more commonplace fathers taking time off to attend antenatal appointments. In turn, this will mean that more employers accommodate provisions beyond the statutory minimum. The impact of these provisions will be reviewed alongside the package of reforms in this Bill that introduce shared parental leave.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I did not detect the softening that I was hoping for in that response. Is the Minister really saying that a 6.5-hour standard for attending appointments will be in the Bill? Where does that place people who live in the Highlands of Scotland or remote parts of Wales, whose hospital will be several hours’ journey there and back? It seems ridiculous to specify something which the Government must know could not possibly be the standard applied in certain areas of the country.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Of course, the noble Lord makes a fair point but this is the minimum requirement that is laid out. We feel it is fair that this should be done on the case of the maximum entitlement. There is every hope, particularly for those employees who work in the Highlands, for example, that the employer will take a reasonable view and will allow more time off if necessary, but we feel that six and a half hours is pretty reasonable.
I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. These relate to additional maternity provision for mothers who have multiple births. The early months after the birth of a child are often a joyful and exciting time, but I think everyone in this Committee would agree that they can also place great demands on parents. These demands are amplified when there is not just one new baby to care for, but two or more. Straightforward tasks such as feeding, changing nappies or leaving the house can pose enormous challenges. Multiple pregnancies often result in premature births, bringing additional health complications for the babies and stress for the parents.
Financial pressures on families with more than one baby increase as well. Having a baby is expensive, but when the costs double or triple it can be very daunting for the individuals involved. I can understand the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, to ensure that parents who have multiple children from the same pregnancy receive support at this challenging time. I applaud the fact that he produced some interesting statistics to support his comments. It is important, however, to bear in mind that the period of maternity leave to which women are entitled in Great Britain is one of the longest in the world. The purpose of this leave is to enable the mother to recover from birth and to bond with her new baby or, in the case of a multiple birth, her new babies. The amount of time off work that mothers take will vary depending on the needs and wishes of the individual.
The current maternity leave entitlement is 52 weeks per pregnancy, to which all employed women are entitled. The Government believe that this leave entitlement allows all women sufficient time to recover from all birth circumstances and care and bond with the baby or babies prior to returning to work. The vast majority of mothers choose to return to work before the end of the maternity leave period. Eligible mothers are also entitled to up to 39 weeks of statutory maternity pay or maternity allowance. Statutory maternity pay is paid at 90% of earnings for the first six weeks of maternity leave, and at the lesser of 90% of salary or £136.78 per week for the subsequent 33 weeks. Maternity allowance is paid at the lesser of 90% of earnings or the flat rate of £136.78 for the full 39 weeks. As with statutory maternity leave, this entitlement is per pregnancy rather than per child born.
Multiple babies will mean additional expenditure for families. It is important to emphasise, however, that statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance are not intended to go towards the additional costs of new babies. They are intended to provide a measure of earnings replacement to enable the mother to be absent from the workplace on maternity leave. The financial needs of different families will vary. The level of a mother’s income while she is absent from the workplace may also depend on contractual pay enhancements that are available to many women for part or, in some cases, all of their maternity leave. The eligibility of an individual for these statutory payments is underpinned by their labour market attachment and their relationship with an individual employer. The Government do not therefore consider it appropriate to link the amount of pay available with regards to any statutory pay following birth or adoption to the number of children in a pregnancy or adoption arrangement. I hope that noble Lords are reassured by this explanation and ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, we have had a series of very good debates this afternoon with a listening Minister, although I fear that he has stopped listening in this debate. I am encouraged by some of the things he has said but it is pretty clear that the Government will make no movement whatever on my two amendments. We may need to return to this issue on Report but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
“Statutory rights to leave and pay of prospective adopters with whom looked after children are placed, special guardians and family and friends carers
(1) In section 75A of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (ordinary adoption leave), after subsection (1) there is inserted—
“(1A) The conditions that may be prescribed under subsection (1) include conditions as to—
(a) being a local authority foster parent;(b) being approved as a prospective adopter;(c) being notified by a local authority in England that a child is to be, or is expected to be, placed with the employee under section 22C of the Children Act 1989;(d) becoming a special guardian under section 14A of the Children Act 1989;(e) becoming a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances.” (2) In section 75B of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (additional adoption leave), after subsection (1) there is inserted—
“(1A) The conditions that may be prescribed under subsection (1) include conditions as to—
(a) becoming a special guardian under section 14A of the Children Act 1989;(b) becoming a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances.”(3) In section 80B of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (entitlement to ordinary paternity leave: adoption)—
(a) in subsection (5), after paragraph (a) there is inserted—“(aa) make provision excluding the right to be absent on leave under this section in the case of an employee who, by virtue of provision under subsection (6A), has already exercised a right to be absent on leave under this section in connection with the same child;”;(b) after subsection (6) there is inserted—“(6A) Regulations under subsection (1) shall include provision for leave in respect of a child—
(a) placed, or expected to be placed, under section 22C of the Children Act 1989 by a local authority in England with a local authority foster parent who has been approved as a prospective adopter;(b) for whom a special guardian has been appointed under section 14A of the Children Act 1989; (c) placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances.(6B) This section has effect in relation to regulations made by virtue of subsection (6A) as if—
(a) references to being placed for adoption were references to being placed under section 22C of the Children Act 1989 with a local authority foster parent who has been approved as a prospective adopter or to being placed with a special guardian under section 14A of the Children Act 1989 or to being placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances;(b) references to placement for adoption were references to placement under section 22C or section 14A with such a person or to placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances;(c) paragraph (aa) of subsection (5) were omitted.”(4) In section 171ZB of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (entitlement to ordinary statutory paternity pay: adoption), after subsection (7) there is inserted—
“(8) This section has effect in a case involving a child placed under section 22C of the Children Act 1989 by a local authority in England with a local authority foster parent who has been approved as a prospective adopter, or placed with a special guardian under section 14A of the Children Act 1989 or placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances, with the following modifications—
(a) the references in subsection (2) to a child being placed for adoption under the law of any part of the United Kingdom are to be treated as references to a child being placed under section 22C in that manner or to being placed with a special guardian under section 14A or to being placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances;(b) the reference in subsection (3) to the week in which the adopter is notified of being matched with the child for the purposes of adoption is to be treated as a reference to the week in which the prospective adopter is notified that the child is to be, or is expected to be, placed with the prospective adopter under section 22C or the week the special guardian is expected to be appointed or the week the child is expected to be placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances;(c) the reference in subsection (6) to placement for adoption is to be treated as a reference to placement under section 22C of section 14A or to placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances;(d) the definition in subsection (7) is to be treated as if it were a definition of “prospective adopter” or “special guardian” or “family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances”.(9) Where, by virtue of subsection (8), a person becomes entitled to statutory paternity pay in connection with the placement of a child under section 22C or 14A of the Children Act 1989 or placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances, the person may not become entitled to payments of statutory paternity pay in connection with the placement of the child for adoption.”
(5) In section 171ZE of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (rate and period of pay), after subsection (11) there is inserted—
“(12) Where statutory paternity pay is payable to a person by virtue of section 171ZB(8), this section has effect as if—
(a) the references in subsections (3)(b) and (10) to placement for adoption were references to placement under section 22C or 14A of the Children Act 1989 or placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances;(b) the references in subsection (10) to being placed for adoption were references to being placed under section 22C or 14A or to being placed with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances.” (6) In section 171ZL of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (entitlement to statutory adoption pay), after subsection (8) there is inserted—
“(9) This section has effect in a case involving a child who is, or is expected to be, placed under section 22C of the Children Act 1989 by a local authority in England with a local authority foster parent who has been approved as a prospective adopter, or placed with a special guardian under section 14A of the Children Act 1989 or placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances, with the following modifications—
(a) the references in subsections (2)(a) and (4A)(a) to a child being placed for adoption under the law of any part of the United Kingdom are to be treated as references to a child being placed under section 22C in that manner or to being placed with a special guardian under section 14A or to being placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances;(b) the reference in subsection (3) to the week in which the person is notified that he has been matched with the child for the purposes of adoption is to be treated as a reference to the week in which the person is notified that the child is to be, or is expected to be, placed with him under section 22C or the week the special guardian is expected to be appointed or the week the child is expected to be placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances;(c) the references in subsection (4B)(a) to adoption are to be treated as references to placement under section 22C or 14A or placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances;(d) the reference in subsection (5) to placement, or expected placement, for adoption is to be treated as a reference to placement, or expected placement, under section 22C or 14A or placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances.(10) Where, by virtue of subsection (9), a person becomes entitled to statutory adoption pay in respect of a child who is, or is expected to be, placed under section 22C or 14A of the Children Act 1989 or placement with a family and friends carer in prescribed circumstances, the person may not become entitled to payments of statutory adoption pay as a result of the child being, or being expected to be, placed for adoption.”
(7) In section 171ZN of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (rate and period of pay), after subsection (8) there is inserted—
“(9) Where statutory adoption pay is payable to a person by virtue of section 171ZL(9), this section has effect as if the reference in subsection (2E) to the week in which the person is notified that he has been matched with a child for the purposes of adoption were a reference to the week in which the person is notified that a child is to be, or is expected to be, placed with him under section 22C of the Children Act 1989 or the week the special guardian is expected to be appointed or the week the child is expected to be placed in a family and friends care arrangement in prescribed circumstances.
(8) In the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992—
(a) in section 171ZJ(1), at the appropriate place there is inserted—““local authority” has the same meaning as in the Children Act 1989 (see section 105(1) of that Act);”;
““local authority foster parent” has the same meaning as in the Children Act 1989 (see section 22C(12) of that Act);”;
(b) in section 171ZS(1), at the appropriate place there is inserted—““local authority” has the same meaning as in the Children Act 1989 (see section 105(1) of that Act);”;
““local authority foster parent” has the same meaning as in the Children Act 1989 (see section 22C(12) of that Act);”.”
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, Amendment 267, in the names of myself and my noble friend Lady Drake, suggests changes to the statutory leave and pay of prospective adopters with whom looked-after children are placed, special guardians and family and friends carers. Insertions are suggested to sections of the Employment Rights Act 1996 and sections of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992.
We had a lengthy discussion on support for family and friends carers in Committee on 26 October. I shall summarise a few points from that debate as a background to today’s considerations. An estimated 300,000 children are being raised by relatives and friends. Only an estimated 6% of children who are raised in family and friends care are looked after by the local authority and placed with approved foster carers. Children in kinship care do better in terms of attachment and achievement, but their carers are under severe strain—95% of family and friends carers say so. In the previous debate I called them heroes, and so they are. We are not really addressing the inequalities and unfairness that they face at the moment.
The Kinship Care Alliance attributes this strain to three major factors: kinship carers are not entitled to local authority financial or other support—financial support is discretionary; many kinship carers have to give up jobs to support the children and they have no right to specific services and benefits. Despite guidance to local authorities in 2011 which stated what support they should provide by September 2011, 30% of local authorities do not have a family and friends care policy. Financial costs include the immediate cost of a child coming to live with a carer, the costs of applying for a legal order to provide the child with security and permanence, loss of income and pension rights and, finally, the considerable costs of raising a child.
Children who live with family and friends care have experienced similar adversities to those in the care system or who are adopted, yet foster carers get a national minimum financial allowance and the Government are rightly improving adopters’ rights to a period of paid leave on a par with maternity leave. However, the 95% of family and friends carers who are raising children outside the care system are not entitled to anything in paid leave when they take on the care of children.
The Family Rights Group’s publication Understanding Family and Friends Care, reflecting the latest survey of family and friends carers in 2012, reported that only one in eight of the 327 respondents who answered the question about the effect that becoming a family and friends carer had had, said that they had continued to work as before, and one in nine that their partner had continued to work as before. Indeed, 38% had to give up their job to take on the care of the children—in London the figure was 46%. Overall, the picture which emerged was that carers were likely to have made sacrifices in the workplace in order to care for the kinship children. Very few just carried on working as before. Many decreased their working responsibilities and their income by reducing their hours or stopping work altogether—sometimes, I have to say, at the insistence of social workers.
Children who have been through trauma or tragedy, and who may have multiple needs, require time to settle in with their carers. The carers are often required to attend a number of meetings relating to the care and needs of the children, but the absence of any right to paid leave means that we are forcing many family and friends carers to give up work in order to do right by these children. We are pushing them into a life of dependency on benefits and into severe poverty. Some are grandparent carers who are unable to get back into employment when their grandchildren are older. Some are younger sibling carers who have few qualifications and only a few years in employment when they take on their younger brothers and sisters, but later find it difficult to re-enter the labour market. Research has shown that three-quarters of family and friends carer households face severe financial hardship. I hope that the Government will be able to address these urgent issues, and I beg to move.
Baroness Drake (Lab)
My Lords, I support Amendment 267, which would bring family and friends carers and special guardians in employment within scope for statutory entitlement to pay and leave when taking on the care of a child. The Bill extends the right that adoptive parents have to take ordinary and additional adoptive leave to approved adopters who have looked-after children placed with them. By contrast, the vast majority of family and friends carers who are raising children outside the looked-after system are not currently entitled to even a day of statutory paid leave when they take on the indefinite care of a child. Many have no entitlement beyond a few days’ unpaid emergency leave. That is a public policy that conveys that kinship carers have less value or make a lesser contribution than other carers of children, even though the children they care for often have complex needs. That cannot be right.
The amendment would extend the same employment rights to family and friends carers who have special guardianship orders, and to family and friends carers who take on the care of a child in certain defined circumstances. It would give the Secretary of State the authority to define those circumstances, and would extend the right to additional adoptive leave to family and friends carers and those with guardianship orders, again giving the Secretary of State the authority to define the prescribed circumstances.
There is a stark imbalance in the proposed employment leave entitlements for adoptive and prospective adoptive parents when compared to the lack of entitlements for kinship carers. That is unfair, irrational and inconsistent with the Government’s policy on the welfare and protection of children. It is unfair in that kinship carers voluntarily take on the responsibility, often in very difficult circumstances and at considerable cost to themselves, saving the taxpayer considerable amounts of money and achieving better outcomes for the child than if they had entered the care system. It is irrational in so far as the statutory rights to leave for parents, adopters or prospective adopters have been or are being improved, but no statutory rights are extended to the kinship carers of thousands of our most vulnerable children. It is inconsistent with current welfare policy in that the absence of a statutory right to leave, on taking care of the child, raises the barriers to carers’ continued workforce participation and increases the likelihood that they will become long-term unemployed and dependent on benefits. That undermines participation in the workforce as a route out of poverty for the children and the carer.
During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, the Government recognised that family and friends carers make a valuable contribution by caring for vulnerable children, and exempted those carers from work conditionality under the universal credit during the first 12 months of caring for a child. The Government have time-limited that exemption in the expectation that many carers should return to the labour market after a period of adjustment, so why not make provision for a statutory entitlement to leave and reduce the incidence of kinship carers leaving the labour force in the first place?
However, the problems that kinship carers face do not lie only in the requirements of the welfare system, they also suffer from the complete lack of recognition in employment law. The imbalance in their right is inconsistent with the protection of child welfare, in that kinship carers need to take leave to settle the children, who have often been through so much. This often comes after a long period of family crisis; the children can be traumatised and insecure, and they need to know that someone is there for them. That is precisely why social workers often want or require carers to take time out of work. There are also the practical requirements of making appointments with schools, solicitors and social workers, arranging legal orders and so on. Often, the children arrive unexpectedly in just the clothes they are wearing, but there is not even the most modest statutory provision allowing employed carers leave from their employment. Yet kinship care is the most common permanency option for children who cannot live with their birth parents. The same arguments apply to the extension of parental leave to kinship carers as were advanced for the introduction of adoption leave in the Employment Act 2002: the need for time for children to settle with and bond to carers and the advantages of enabling carers to remain in the labour market.
To scope the problem, an estimated 60,000 kinship carers have dropped out of the labour market to bring up children. The reasons for this include the needs of the child, but the fact that they are not entitled to time off increases the likelihood of their leaving the labour market, so contributing to the high proportion of kinship carers living in poverty. Family Rights Group research found that one-third were living on incomes below £350 a week. Grandparents Plus found that 73% of kinship carers were working before the children moved in, but that almost half of those who had been working left their jobs when the children arrived. Some 83% of those who gave up work say that they would have liked to have remained in work, while of those who gave up work just 13% are now back in work. Similarly, a Family Rights Group survey found that 38% of family and friends carers had left their job, lost their job or taken early retirement when they took on the care of the child.
The Bill presents the opportunity to extend parental leave entitlements to kinship carers who take on the indefinite care of a child, and to give them parity with prospective adopters. The majority of family and friends carers are not entitled to even one day of statutory paid leave. That cannot be fair. The arguments for providing a right to leave are equally compelling, whether looked at from the perspective of the carer or of the child.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I have been reminded by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, that we have had this discussion in the past. It struck everyone at the time how completely unfair this whole system was. Now that the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has spelt out so many comparisons, it is, frankly, almost embarrassing to think about the disadvantage that kinship carers suffer when they take on this responsibility and often—most likely, I would say—produce much better results for those children, giving them a likely prospect of a far more fulfilled life than if they had gone into different forms of care.
In supporting what has been said, I would say to the Minister that I would love to hear that this area was going to be looked at hard and, as far as possible, a range of comparable systems would be considered for kinship carers, those coming into care and those who are to be adopted. If he could give us that assurance, or indeed tell us that a lot of this is already in process, that would be very helpful in settling our minds until Report, if nothing else.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, I support the amendment. It has been set out so comprehensively and compellingly that I do not need to add very much. The case seems to be overwhelming that when people who are providing kinship care—often, as has been said, in the most desperate circumstances—agree to step in, often at great personal cost to themselves, it is only right that the state should recognise the hugely valuable contribution they are making.
These children are often in states of great distress and trauma, and for a member of the family to be able to step in and provide some degree of stability is really important. We all know the cost to the public purse of children in care who go, for example, into residential homes—it is huge. The savings that are made by a member of the family stepping forward in this way are considerable. We also know about the very poor outcomes for too many children in care when they emerge at the other end of the system. Kinship carers can make a huge contribution and it is absolutely right that society should acknowledge that. One very important way it could do so would be by extending these statutory employment rights to kinship carers.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I will speak briefly to make two points. First, as the noble Baroness indicated, this is both a short-term and long-term financial issue. The previous Government and the present one, I fear, have taken the same position, which is that paying kinship carers in the short term would be too expensive. However, as many noble Lords have pointed out, it has tremendous value and advantage in the longer term. I only wish that a Government could, if not introduce the whole package, at least take one step.
I remind noble Lords that the Select Committee on Adoption Legislation, which I was part of, pointed out that there was very little difference in outcomes— indeed there might be better outcomes—for children who were in special guardianship orders compared to those who were adopted. However, we treat those two groups in a totally different way. That is irrational. If we could just make a start with special guardianship, where there is an order and it is quite clear that the care is going to continue, we would feel we were taking a step forward.
Overall, we spend very little these days. The news today is that we are almost unable to meet our commitments to protect children with child protection procedures and that social workers are under tremendous pressure. I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, glanced at me, because I am a social worker by background, when she said that social workers are actually insisting that people take the time off—of course they are, because, as the noble Baroness pointed out, they have a responsibility to make sure that these children are properly cared for. Most of those social workers would be delighted if they could recommend that they were paid for that. The old Section 1 of the 1963 Act, which used to help with this, has long gone, and there are very few provisions now to help these families get through even the initial difficult times, never mind the longer period of caring for a child who is not their own, with all the pressures that such a child brings.
Being the unlikely founder of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Grandparents and Extended Kin—which is another story—I am concerned for grandparents, because they have reached a point where they thought life was going to be easier and they were going to be financially secure. However, they then find themselves bringing up children in their family—as they would wish to rather than let anyone else take over the care of the children—and somehow the state does not see it in its purview to give help to these families. With the changes in the benefits system, these families are finding it more and more difficult to survive. Consequently, as noble Lords know, more children will come into care. These situations will break down as families can no longer manage or social services think that it is inappropriate for them to do so.
I am quite sure that these amendments will not be accepted, as they have not been accepted in the past. However, I wish that there could be some thought, and some work undertaken, to see whether there is a step change that can move forward, through the various groups, to make it easier, particularly when a family has a legal order and responsibility for the children concerned.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I welcome this debate on another important issue. As has been said, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, alluded to, the Government recognise the extremely valuable contribution made by family and friends in caring for children who cannot live with their parents. Noble Lords have spoken passionately about this issue today and I am struck by the depth and breadth of expertise on this matter in this Committee.
The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, raised the important issue of kinship carers dropping out of the labour market. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, is not in his place, but I hope that I can go a little way to restoring my reputation as a listening Minister by saying that we agree that it is important that kinship carers can remain in the labour market. The evidence that we have about this issue is limited, but I hope that noble Lords will be reassured if I explain that we are actively researching this issue. I shall say more about that in a moment.
During the debate on support for family and friend carers, my noble friend Lady Northover described the financial support with which local authorities are encouraged to provide families to help them to cope with the strain that caring for an additional child may put on household budgets.
The type of care arrangement that kinship and friendship carers provide varies a great deal. Some families care for children who need support during a short-term crisis, such as a parental illness. Other individuals take on care of a child on a long-term basis. My noble friend Lady Tyler, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey and Lady Drake, highlighted some other examples, including some statistics provided by Grandparents Plus, parents’ rights groups and other groups.
Given the variety of arrangements that exist, the Government believe that it is right to assess the needs of each family at the local level. Local authorities are best placed to establish relationships with these families and appraise their financial needs on an individual basis. This enables them to provide targeted support to the right people at the right time.
Special guardianship orders provide a more formalised and legally secure foundation on which a child can build a permanent relationship with his or her carer. In many cases, the child may already be living with the family when they make an application for a special guardianship order. However, this will not be the case for all families and some may have to adapt quickly to significant changes in circumstances—a point that was made earlier.
Special guardianship orders are an increasingly popular “permanence” option for children. However, they remain a relatively new legal status and special guardians are a group about which the Government have limited data. In particular, there is insufficient information about the way in which special guardians adjust to their new caring arrangements and how this may impact on an individual’s ability to remain in the labour market. I hope that I can reassure the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey and Lady Drake, by saying that we believe that it is essential to understand the issues that are faced by this group in order to ensure that they receive the support that is appropriate to address their needs. For this reason, my department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, will undertake research into kinship and friendship carers and special guardians, and their participation in the labour market. We have already started to scope this, liaising with the Department for Education.
I recognise that research is not the same as support, but it is the first crucial step towards understanding what policy interventions would be most appropriate to meet the needs of these individuals. I hope that this reassures the noble Baroness and I ask her to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response and other speakers for contributing to this short debate. I am delighted to hear that the Minister has instigated research. There is an awful lot of research around already on this issue, so I hope that it will not be too lengthy. A later amendment from my noble friend Lord Stevenson suggests, I think, one year of probing and research. I do not think that we need a year to solve this one. The organisations that we have mentioned already have a wealth of data on the problems, statistics, anecdotes and case studies of family and friends carers. Therefore, I hope that any research will build on the existing research, will be carried out quickly, and that something will be done very quickly for these people who are saving the state lots of money, as has been said.
More importantly, these carers are saving children from disappearing down various plugholes in the system. It is well known that children need stability and love and kinship carers are known to provide this. It is too easy to take a short-term view. Generally, outcomes for children in care are poor—let us face it. They have poor or lower academic achievements, higher involvement in criminal activity and drugs and alcohol and more early pregnancies. This is a sorry story. Family and friends carers are stepping in and trying to mitigate this situation for their grandchildren, nieces and nephews or whoever, often at great cost to themselves, as we have heard. They are saving the state money and contributing to the welfare of children.
We have heard time and again that the Government are sympathetic to these carers. I have also heard time and again that local authorities are encouraged to give support, but that is not statutory support. As I said earlier, 30% of local authorities have no policy on family and friends carers. I agree that there is insufficient information on this and we must understand all the issues, so I appreciate that research will be needed. However, as I say, it must not be lengthy and must not delay help for these family and friends carers who are giving so much to society and the children whom they serve. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Drake
“Kinship carers’ adjustment leave
(1) A qualifying employee who satisfies prescribed conditions may be absent from work at any time during an adjustment leave period.
(2) An adjustment leave period is a period calculated in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(3) The regulations under subsection (2) above shall include provision for determining the extent of an employee’s entitlement to leave under this section but shall secure that where an employee is entitled to leave under this section he is entitled to at least four weeks’ leave, or for a longer period to be prescribed.
(4) An employee who exercises his rights under subsection (1)—
(a) is entitled, for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed, to the benefit of the terms and conditions of employment which would have applied if he had not been absent, (b) is bound, for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed, by any obligations arising under those terms and conditions (except in so far as they are inconsistent with subsection (1)), and(c) is entitled to return from leave to a job of a prescribed kind.(5) For the purposes of this section, an employee is a qualifying employee if he is a family and friends (kinship) carer looking after a child full-time because the parent(s) is unable to look after the child, in the first 12 months after the child moves in.”
Baroness Drake
My Lords, in moving Amendment 267A, I will speak also to Amendments 267B and 267C.
Amendment 267A proposes a new form of unpaid adjustment leave similar to parental leave—a modest entitlement of a one-off period of at least four weeks for a kinship carer during the first year after a child moves in. Often children arrive without notice and it may be unclear how long the child will be staying or whether it will be a long-term arrangement. However, the children have immediate and complex needs. Friends and kinship carers often lack parental responsibility when children first arrive because it takes time to arrange a legal order. Adjustment leave would meet kinship carers’ urgent need for time to adjust to the upheaval in the children’s lives, apply for a legal order, a residence or special guardianship order to secure the care of the child and attend numerous meetings, and would reduce the prospect of the carer being pushed out of their job as a consequence. The challenges they face were well articulated in the debate on the previous amendment.
Adjustment leave would be available for a kinship carer who can demonstrate that the children cannot live with their parent. A qualifying employee would have to meet prescribed conditions and the adjustment leave period would be calculated in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State. While they are seeking to secure the necessary legal orders, kinship carers may not fulfil the prescribed circumstances which the Secretary of State may have already, or may in the future, set for access to other statutory employment rights of leave. A modest period of unpaid adjustment leave would give such carers the urgently needed time to act to protect the child. At the moment they are given little or no support. The law recognises the need for an adjustment period for parents but gives no statutory recognition of any kind to kinship carers and no protection against the breaking of the employment contract when they take such urgent leave to care for the child.
The intent of Amendment 267B is to enable those with caring responsibilities—be they friends, family members or grandparents—for a child, a vulnerable adult or an elderly person to take up to two weeks’ leave per year unpaid in order to deal with pressing caring responsibilities. The amendment would give the Secretary of State the authority to define the prescribed conditions for qualifying employees and the period of leave, subject to an entitlement to two weeks’ leave in a given year. Parents of children are entitled to take up to four weeks’ parental leave a year, up to a total of 18 weeks, but many other carers do not have any statutory entitlement even to unpaid leave for a caring need, with the possible exception of a few days’ emergency leave.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Drake’s Amendments 267A, 267B and 267C. I will say a word later on Amendment 267BA after my noble friend Lord Stevenson has spoken to his amendment. My noble friend Lady Drake has set out the principles of these amendments comprehensively and I just want to add a few comments.
When children first move into kinship care, the carers and the children need time to settle and adjust to the upheaval in their lives. I know a kinship carer who received three children at midnight because their daughter had died from a drug overdose. That is an upheaval beyond imagination. She said that the children were grieving, she was grieving and they had very little time to do it properly. Children often arrive without notice in these circumstances. For example, a parent may be in hospital or there may be domestic violence or abuse. The proposal is for a period of leave similar to parental leave.
An estimated 60,000 kinship carers have dropped out of the labour market to bring up children. There are many reasons for this, including the high needs of the children and the fact that the carers are not legally entitled to any time off to accommodate the needs of the child, especially at a time of upheaval when everybody is in crisis and needs time to settle down.
Amendment 267 seeks the extension of emergency leave entitlement to grandparents, to enable a grandparent to take reasonable time off work to provide help where a grandchild is ill or to deal with an unexpected event at school, for example a school closure due to poor weather. Some families would prefer a working grandparent to be able to take time off to provide childcare when a child is ill or a school is closed. I—and, I would guess, several people in this room—have certainly taken time off or given up time to look after grandchildren when there has been a crisis in the family.
The amendment seeks to help parents to balance work and their caring responsibilities, and to relieve the pressure on families when a child has a problem. Currently, one in four working families depend on grandparents to provide childcare. Some 70% of all working grandparents say that they look after their grandchildren and 29% of grandparents are working. The impact on employment overall should be minimal as the amendment will spread across different employers the impact of an employee’s absence due to a family emergency, such as a child’s illness, rather than one employer, typically the mother’s, experiencing the full impact.
I was interested that in Denmark, apparently, it is usual when a child is ill for the mother to take the first day off, the father the second and a grandparent the third, which seems very sensible. Again, I support the amendments and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I support Amendment 267B, particularly from the perspective of carers for adults, although, of course, I also support it with reference to carers for children. A Carers UK/YouGov poll found that 22% of UK adults had seen their paid work negatively affected as a result of caring, including 2.3 million who had given up work as a result and about 3 million who had reduced their working hours to care at some point in their lives.
Research has demonstrated that the point at which caring begins to have a significant impact on carers’ ability to work is when 20 hours a week or more is provided, with some analysis indicating that the tipping point may be even lower at 10 hours. Without the right support, millions of workers are leaving work to care and the cost of this to individuals, business and the economy is huge. Recently, research by the Personal Social Services Research Unit at the LSE calculated the public expenditure costs of carers leaving paid work at a staggering £1.3 billion a year, based on the cost of carer’s allowance and lost tax revenues. Additional analysis by Age UK indicates that the economic cost rises to £5.3 billion when lost earnings are taken into account. One quarter of working carers report that they feel they receive inadequate support to enable them to combine work and care and only half think that their employer is carer-friendly. The survey of carers found that nearly two-thirds of carers in work have used annual leave to care, while nearly half have done overtime to make up for taking time off to care.
The task and finish group set up by Employers for Carers and the Department of Health states in its final report that,
“the issue of supporting carers to remain in work is not only a problem, but also an economic opportunity. Supporting carers to remain in work can bring considerable benefits to carers themselves, employers and the wider economy”.
This is partly a government publication.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I simply want to ask a question. During the past Session, we have managed to achieve considerable integration between adult care, the health service and children’s care—looking after children’s carers. Why can the Department for Work and Pensions, or whatever department handles this sort of employment legislation, not also become much more integrated so that the whole package can be assessed appropriately? That may be too great a vision but maybe that should be the road we go along.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, my amendment, which is part of this group, is rather low-key compared to the sort of debate that we have just had. It seems in vogue, in terms of what has just been said, that we should seek a compromise position that all parties could support in this area. As my noble friend Lady Lister has said, this seems to have all the hallmarks of an irresistible force that is moving forwards. These are pressing and important areas of activity in our social arrangements. They are suffering badly because they have not received the attention they should have done in previous Administrations, including our own, but the benefits of and the opportunities for making something better out of it are so great that the argument surely carries weight and we should be looking very carefully at it.
I do not wish to comment further on that but I make an offer to the Minister: if he would like to see whether a discussion between the parties might help to provide a context in which some of the good will that has been expressed in the Committee today can be taken forward, I would be very happy to participate in it. Obviously, we would need to work out what we were going to do with such an amazing compact, should there be one, but it would at least be a step in the right direction.
Our amendment does not go anywhere near that, except to build on what the Minister mentioned in response to Amendment 267, which was, in his careful phrasing, “a research project” to get some basic material out about this area. Amendment 267BA is looking at a review that would be carried out by the Secretary of State, on the impact of the lack of paid leave on kinship carers and special guardians left in the workplace, so it is narrower. I appeal to the Minister to see in that the opportunity to take another step down this path, which, like my noble friend Lady Lister, I hope is not too long. I hope for a little of his caring and listening mode on this occasion. I thought it was only in response to my noble friend Lady Lister and others that he adopted it, but perhaps this time he could listen to me as well.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I follow my noble friend Lord Stevenson in supporting this attempt to reach a healthy compromise. There is already a great deal of research and investigation into the plight of family and friends who are carers. I hope that that can be built on. There is a meeting with officials, which I think the Minister has set up for next Wednesday, and I hope that any noble Lord here who is concerned about this could get details of that meeting. I hope that at that meeting we could discuss this proposal for research and who will be involved. I hope, too, that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, has just said, that involvement will be integrated across various streams of various departments.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, modern families come in all shapes and sizes, and it is important that we recognise the extremely valuable contribution that is made by many different individuals. I shall address each of these amendments in turn, beginning with Amendment 267BA. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to review the provision for kinship carers and special guardians, as moved a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. As I have said in, as he put it, a carefully worded, but, I hope, clear response to the previous amendment, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will undertake research into kinship and friendship carers and special guardians and their participation in the labour market in order to ensure that support provided by the Government is appropriate to address these people’s needs.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, questioned the length of the research in the previous amendment and stated that plenty of research was already available. By way of reassurance—I hope that she takes it in this spirit—I would say that it is important that we take the time to scope the project properly in advance of starting the research. I welcome the input of the organisations mentioned and, indeed, others that might not have been mentioned. I give this commitment: I shall return to this House with further details on the likely timetable on Report and note some further carefully chosen words. The noble Baroness alluded to a meeting with officials that has been arranged. I confirm that it is set for next Wednesday at 11am. The Bill team will provide further details by e-mail about that meeting. I encourage as many people as would like to attend to come.
Turning now to Amendments 267A and 267B regarding adjustment leave for kinship carers and leave for carers, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, carers play a vital role supporting and caring for their children or loved ones, and they reduce the need for state funded care. These points were made with great passion today by a number of noble Lords. These individuals can often struggle to balance their work and caring responsibilities effectively and without support may not be able to stay in work. It is important that we recognise this contribution and provide carers with the support that they need to remain in the workplace. From time to time, carers may need time off to manage emergencies or breakdowns in care. Many kinship and friendship carers also experience a period of adjustment when a child comes to live with them. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, gave the Committee a rather heartbreaking example of an occasion when a parent died of a drug overdose. If I read her correctly, the child appeared on someone’s doorstep.
Changes in living circumstances can happen suddenly and families may come under great strain to adjust quickly to the caring needs of a child who may be facing many complex issues and emotions. The right to time off for dependants enables them to take time off to make arrangements for their care. Once the child is living with kinship or friendship carers, he or she becomes their dependant, and any carer who is an employee will be entitled to time off. This enables the carer to take a reasonable period of time off work to take the action necessary to deal with specified short-term emergencies, and this is a day one right that is available to all employees. The employee does not necessarily need to give their employer advance notice of their intention to take leave under this provision as long as they inform their employer as soon as is reasonably practicable. This is because emergencies rarely come with notice, and again examples were given earlier in this debate.
The right to time off may not meet the needs of all individuals in all circumstances. Many employers provide additional forms of leave for compassionate reasons to enable employees to deal with sudden and often traumatic changes in circumstances. Caring is often a long-term responsibility. All carers, including kinship and friendship carers, may need to consider long-term changes to do with their changed circumstances. The Government believe that the right support for carers is to allow them to change how they work to better accommodate their caring role on a long-term basis.
Carers are already eligible to make a statutory request to work in a flexible way under the current legislation. However, the extension of the right to request flexible working in Part 8 of this Bill will drive a culture change which should mean that flexible working becomes more widespread and better integrated into standard working practice. My department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, has been working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions and their private sector working group to encourage more employers to consider flexible working practices when they are designing and advertising jobs. They have developed, for example, a strapline to use when advertising jobs: “Happy to talk flexible working”. This should increase the availability of jobs that can be done in a flexible way, thus enabling more carers to remain attached to and re-enter the labour market.
Extending the current right to request to all employees will enable more people, including those who have more informal or infrequent caring responsibilities such as kinship or friendship carers, to retain an attachment to the labour market when they have experienced significant changes in their personal circumstances. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, raised the issue of supporting grandparents to remain in work when they provide childcare. The Government agree that it is important to support the needs of older people and grandparents, and to help them stay in work, especially when they have caring responsibilities. This has been a key driver behind the extension of the right to request flexible working, and it will help these groups to balance work and care commitments on a long-term, sustainable basis. It will support the informal caring that is often provided by grandparents, about which I will have a few more words to say later.
I turn finally to Amendment 267C regarding emergency time off for grandparents. We have heard many examples of the invaluable practical and emotional support provided by grandparents to their children and grandchildren, an issue raised particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. I welcome this debate as an opportunity to pay tribute to the vitally important role that grandparents play in supporting families to juggle work and childcare responsibilities.
The issue of emergency time off for dependants was debated during the passage of this Bill in the other place. The Minister for Employment Relations and Consumer Affairs outlined the qualification criteria for this type of time off, and for the benefit of noble Lords I shall do so again here, albeit fairly briefly. This provision is intended to give employees a statutory entitlement to time off work to deal with an emergency involving a dependant. The qualification criteria for this type of time off are deliberately broad, and this is to ensure that any employee on whom a person reasonably relies to make arrangements for the provision of care is able to qualify for this type of time off in circumstances where there has been an unexpected disruption or termination of care arrangements. It is important to emphasise that the legislation enables all employee grandparents who are relied on to make arrangements for the provision of care for their grandchildren to qualify for this time off in such circumstances.
Baroness Drake
I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I thank the Minister for his response, and I shall respond to some of his points. Obviously, it is welcome that the Government are looking at the issue of kinship carers and employment but, like my noble friend Lady Massey, I have to ask how long that will take. The issue is now pressing and urgent, and it is not a new one; the question of the lack of protection for this group of people was well aired during the Welfare Reform Bill.
I hear what the Minister says about scoping the project, but a lot of work was done by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and the DWP team to identify this community and the challenges that it faces. Hopefully, that is banked and does not have to be repeated. The issue here is that, at the moment, maybe with the exception of getting a bit of emergency leave, the statutory provisions in this country do not protect individuals by giving them a statutory right to leave and an ability to keep their employment contract in place. It is welcome that the Government are going to return with a likely timetable before Report.
Most noble Lords here are familiar with the emergency leave provisions, but those do not address the kind of fundamental challenges that kinship carers face when they take on a child at very short notice, with all the complexity and problems that go with that, and subsequently become confirmed as the permanent long-term carer of that child. It is a little drop of a contribution and does not really start to tackle the fundamental challenges that many of them face. It still does not address the glaring imbalance between the support provided to prospective adopters, parents and surrogate parents when it comes to statutory protections. They are the Cinderellas and, consequently, so are the children they look after.
Flexible working proposals are clearly welcome. They are very important in allowing carers to balance their relationship with whoever they are caring for and to stay in work on an ongoing basis, but they do not of themselves provide the statutory right to leave, which is the essential issue for many people when they are either facing a pressing caring need or taking on a child in urgent circumstances. The flexible working arrangements do not necessarily address the immediate problem of the requirement for leave while allowing the employment contract to stay in place.
I hear what the noble Viscount says about grandparents. I have read the statutory provisions and the guidance—I must go and read them again. I worry that the phrase “reasonably relies” will have to be defined by case law. Therefore, there is a hurdle that grandparents have to first meet before they can say, “I will be the one that goes and helps the child. I am a person who that child reasonably relies upon for care in an emergency situation”. If the Government want grandparents to be supported and enabled to take emergency leave to provide that support for families, I struggle to see why one does not simply deal with it straightaway by a simple, modest little provision that would remove any ambiguity on that point.
The issue of statutory leave for kinship carers is not going to go away. So many people feel so strongly about it, and I am sure we will come back to it. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
“Parental bereavement leave
In the Employment Rights Act 1996, after section 57A there is inserted—“57AA Parental bereavement leave
(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations entitling an employee who satisfies specified conditions—
(a) as to duration of employment, and(b) as to relationship with a child,to be absent from work on leave under this section in consequence of the death of a child.(2) Regulations under subsection (1) shall secure that, where an employee has a right to leave under this section, he or she is entitled to a leave period of at least 2 weeks.
(3) Regulations under subsection (1) shall secure that an employee who exercises his or her right under subsection (1)—
(a) is entitled, for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed, to the benefit of the terms and conditions of employment which would have applied if he or she had not been absent,(b) is bound, for such purposes and to such extent as may be prescribed, by any obligations arising under those terms and conditions (except in so far as they are inconsistent with subsection (1)), and(c) is entitled to return from leave to a job of a prescribed kind.(4) In subsection (3)(a) “terms and conditions of employment” includes—
(a) matters connected with an employee’s employment whether or not they arise under his or her contract of employment; and(b) terms and conditions about remuneration.””
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 267D, which would add a new clause after Clause 97, is about parental bereavement leave. The amendment seeks to give the Secretary of State a power to make regulations entitling an employee to be absent from work on leave as a consequence of the death of their child.
It may come as a surprise to many that there is no statutory entitlement to such bereavement leave, but that is the reality. The other elements of the proposed new clause are there for your Lordships to read. The current legal position, for those who do not know it, is that at present parents may be entitled to time off for dependants—there is a legal right to unpaid leave to cope with family emergencies, to which some reference has been made. There is no upper limit to the amount of time specified. It should be “reasonable” and should be only the amount that is sufficient to deal with the situation. The government guidance says:
“There is no set amount of time allowed to deal with an unexpected event involving a dependant—it will vary depending on what the event is … In most cases, one or two days should be sufficient to deal with the problem”.
Clearly the bereavement of a child is a problem that would need more than one or two days. Everyone’s grief is different, so quantifying this is slightly challenging, but I contend that we need to give everyone some certainty that they are entitled to a minimum amount of leave on a paid basis. In my mind, that is two weeks, which I will talk about in a moment.
Having said all that, I also want to pay tribute to Lucy Herd, who I first met two and a half years ago when recording an edition of “The Politics Show” in the BBC’s Southampton studio—occasionally, appearing on these shows does some good. Lucy, who I talked about in my contribution at Second Reading, suffered the loss of her child, Jack, in an accident in the garden. He drowned in their garden pond. Her husband, who at the time was in Australia, was given the opportunity to fly back. Obviously it takes a while to fly from Australia to Cumbria, but he was not able to stay around for very long because his employer needed him back at work within a week. As a result of that experience, Lucy started campaigning, supported by the Lullaby Trust, Bliss, Cruse, Child Bereavement UK, the Childhood Bereavement Network and others. She has discovered that hers is not an isolated example of people suffering from unsympathetic employers. I think the vast majority of employers are reasonable, but clearly there are examples where some are not. I am grateful to the Minister for meeting Lucy last month to discuss this, and to my noble friend Lord Stevenson for accompanying her. Unfortunately, because of my caring responsibilities—I listened to the debate on the previous amendment with care—I was not able to attend.
Recently, in the course of her campaign, Lucy put up a petition on the Change.org site. I looked through the comments that people are allowed to leave as they sign these petitions. There are many moving comments, two of which really stood out as examples that demonstrate that this is not an isolated case. The first was from Karen from Birmingham, who said:
“I got only 6 days compassionate leave when my 6 year old daughter died. A day for every year she lived. Disgusting! And that was the ‘caring’ NHS!”.
The NHS was her employer. Also from Birmingham was Ian, who said:
“I lost my daughter Megan on the 13th September 2010. She had a brain tumour. The work (the Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham) gave me 6 days companionate leave which was good I thought then told me to go off sick until my grieving eased. When I returned 4 weeks later I was called to a meeting with my manager and the personnel department and given a written notice for being off after my daughter’s death”.
That is how in some cases the NHS might treat people who are suffering in this circumstance.
I contend that this is not an isolated case. I was pleased today, following Prime Minister’s Questions in the other place, to hear that this was raised by Tom Harris MP, who asked the Prime Minister whether or not he would commit to amending the Employment Rights Act 1996 to at last give British parents the legal right, and the time, to grieve. I was pleased at the Prime Minister’s response:
“The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue, and I am happy to look at that, having suffered that experience myself. As a Member of Parliament, it is possible to take a little bit of time to stand back and come to terms with what has happened, because colleagues and the people who help us are ready to step in and do what they can. He has raised an important point; let me look at it and get back to him”.
So the Prime Minister gives us some encouragement. As I understand it, he took two weeks’ bereavement leave. In informal conversations, the CBI, which does not have a formal policy on this, has suggested that two weeks’ paid leave might be reasonable.
Bliss, the charity that campaigns,
“for babies born too soon, too small, too sick”,
as its strapline says, has also been in touch and is strongly supportive of this amendment. Many people think that for children who are stillborn, who die in a cot death or who die early on in their lives, maternity leave can be used, so that this is not such an issue. Bliss has said to me that there are emotional reasons why parents might feel more comfortable taking bereavement leave rather than maternity or paternity leave, because it is a focused recognition of their loss. Removed from the emotional associations of parental leave without a child, they can feel more able to take the leave that they need. Ensuring that they are entitled to bereavement leave would also help them, when dealing with employers and other outside agencies, to be clear about their situation and ensure that they get the appropriate support. Although Bliss has sent me some bad examples, it has also sent me some very good examples of how employers can work sympathetically with people who have been through this extraordinary trauma.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, it cannot be right that it is a complete lottery for a grieving parent, probably in deep shock, in being entirely reliant on the good will of their employer. I shall give a slightly different example from the one given just now by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and focus on an extended illness of a child. Jane, a junior manager whom I know, had a three year-old with leukaemia. The charity she worked for believed itself to be a caring and reasonable organisation, but the head of the charity objected to allowing further compassionate leave as the child was dying or when the child died, nor did they want to give leave to prepare for the funeral. They said that the parent should take unpaid leave, having used up her annual leave to be with her child in hospital earlier in the year.
It took a little while for this charity to be persuaded that this was not the appropriate course and, some years on, as a result of the organisation changing its view, the junior manager, Jane, is still there. She found support from friends and colleagues absolutely vital, both in the time immediately after the bereavement and later when she returned to work. What the family really needed after the death was time—time to prepare for the funeral, time to help other children in the family to understand and time to prepare for a return to an ordinary working life after such an extraordinary event.
I think, despite the story, that this manager was lucky. At the very least we need guidelines for employers, but I have sympathy with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Knight. As he has outlined, the costs are not too great either. Fortunately, losing a child is rare, so neither employers nor the Exchequer need worry that this will be a great cost. Also, as important as the humanitarian and caring approach is, parental bereavement leave is likely to help parents settle back into work, which in the long run will help both their employer and the state.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, it is very difficult to follow the well presented case that has been made for action in this area, but I want to spend two seconds paying tribute to Lucy Herd, who is in the audience today. I was privileged to accompany her when she came to see the Minister and the Bill team and very bravely went through some of the things that had happened to her in her life and how she had coped with them. One wonders whether people really can dig so deep, and yet that is what she did; she turned the tragedy of the death of her deeply loved son, Jack, into a campaign that she is still waging and which we have heard about from my noble friend Lord Knight.
This situation cannot be right. We need to do better than we currently do as a society that says it cares about these sorts of issues. There is clearly a cost, but there are also other things that could be done at least to open the situation for discussion. If this happens to you or to your nearest and dearest, you should not then find during the trauma of what is happening that the rules are so adverse and difficult that you do not know where you stand in terms of your relationship to your employer or to anyone else or their agencies. Given the complications of what would happen and the timescales involved—because if there are inquests and other things they will span over a long period—this situation is clearly unstable and has to be resolved. I hope that the Minister will be able to help us
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I shall be very brief because I know that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, should be speaking elsewhere at this minute, I believe.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
I support the amendment. I work with an organisation for children who are born with half a heart. Some of them therefore die but, luckily, more live now than did in the past. The variety of responses from employers to those bereaved families is extraordinary; I shall not go into examples because of the timeframe. The Minister might well say that we need a change in culture, as indeed we do, but one way of achieving that is by having something like this on the statute book. I therefore support the noble Lord.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, this has been an important debate on a difficult and moving issue. I am pleased that the issue was raised at Prime Minister’s Questions by Tom Harris MP, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, mentioned.
The death of a child is an event that no parent should have to experience and it is distressing to hear that some people are not given the time off work that they need. I was privileged recently to meet Lucy Herd, whose experience following the death of her son, Jack, was outlined so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, at Second Reading and today. I found her story extremely moving and was greatly saddened to hear that her partner had not been able to take the time off that he needed to be at home with his family after his son had passed away.
The majority of employers respond to such an event with compassion and understanding, offering their employees the support that they need to take time off and to begin to deal with the consequences of the tragic event. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, recognises this. However, I accept that this is not the case for all parents. Even if such refusals of time off are very rare, they are naturally extremely upsetting for the individuals involved. I emphasise that an employer who does not enable a parent to take time off in order to take action that is necessary in consequence of the death of a child is acting unlawfully. The law is clear that the entitlement to emergency time off for dependants enables parents to take time off to take necessary action following the death of a child. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, raised the issue of the guidance on time off for dependants, which states that one or two days is sufficient. I reassure him that, as I mentioned in my response to the previous debate, we have recently amended the guidance to make it clear that the entitlement is to a reasonable amount of time off.
When a child dies, many processes need to be completed. These would be complicated and distressing at the best of times. I am sure that when a parent is trying to deal with shock and grief following the death of their child, this can be extremely challenging. It is right that parents are able to take time off to deal with these arrangements, and the law clearly provides for that. There is, however, no legal entitlement to statutory time off to grieve. Grief is an extremely personal issue and affects people in very different ways and at different times. For some people, returning to work immediately after a death is a distraction from difficulties at home. Others may need time off at a later date. Parents are best placed to understand their individual needs, and good employers will respond to requests made by their employees in the most appropriate and sensitive way. It would not be possible to legislate to accommodate the varied needs of individuals.
Research conducted by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development demonstrates that many companies have a policy in place for enabling employees to take time off for special and compassionate leave. In addition to leave available as a matter of policy, further time off may often be taken at the discretion of the line manager. Organisations that do not have a policy in place may find it challenging to meet the needs of bereaved employees at what we can all agree is a particularly difficult time. This may be compounded by a lack of understanding about the different religious beliefs and practices of their employees, which often influence grieving and funeral arrangements.
The Government are committed to giving employers the tools and support that they need in all aspects of their relationships with their employees. There is a clear need for guidance to support employers to develop company policies or approaches for time off for bereaved employees. The Government are currently exploring the best way to do this and will bring forward a concrete proposal shortly. I am pleased to announce that the timetable will be available on Report and we can share our approach with the House then.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, for bringing this important matter to the attention of the Committee. I hope that he and indeed Lucy Herd are reassured by the commitment to bring forward guidance. In the mean time, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has spoken in this brief debate, and to the Minister for the sensitive way in which he has responded. We can all agree on what we think employers should do. We can agree that employers should have a policy so that, if these tragic things were to happen to a member of staff, they would have tried to anticipate how best to deal with it. We can agree that parents are best placed to make some of those judgments for themselves. However, “reasonable” has a very wide interpretation. We should use this opportunity to narrow that interpretation. I am therefore grateful to the Minister for announcing that he will bring forward concrete proposals about a timetable on Report. We shall certainly return to this issue then, in part to allow him to do so. In the mean time, if he wants to work with me on his own amendment then I would certainly wish to do that.
I remind him that this amendment seeks to give him powers. He could then use his mechanism of a concrete proposal and a timetable to work out how he should consult best to use those powers. Between now and Report, working with my friend Tom Harris in the other place, we shall liaise with the Prime Minister’s office to see how he reflects on this issue. I hope that we can come away with as happy a result out of these sorts of tragic circumstances as possible. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Review of the provisions of this Part
(1) The Secretary of State must from time to time—
(a) carry out a review of the provisions under this Part;(b) set out the conclusions of the review in a report; and(c) publish and lay a copy of the report before both Houses of Parliament. (2) The report must in particular—
(a) set out the objectives intended to be achieved by this Part including, the objective of encouraging fathers to share in caring for their children;(b) assess the extent to which these objectives are achieved for all families including those with premature or multiple births; and(c) assess, having regard to the objectives set out in paragraph (a)—(i) the number of families having access to the provisions under this Part and whether this could be increased;(ii) whether the amount of paid leave available to fathers independently of any shared parental leave arrangements is suitable;(iii) whether and how shared parental leave could be taken on a part time basis.(3) The first report under subsection (1) must be published before the end of three years beginning with the day on which this Part comes into force.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 267E and also Amendment 268A, I can be brief because the ground we have covered today has been leading up to a number of the points that I would have made if I had had more time and needed to break new ground. The essence of much of what we have heard from the Minister is that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Often, as I anticipated in my opening remarks, he accepts the arguments for the direction in which we want to travel but he does not feel that the economic circumstances or alternatively the particularities of the individual point are absolutely in tune with the willingness of the Government to move on the point. I am not sure that metaphor will read well in Hansard but you will understand where I am trying to get to. This amendment therefore provides an opportunity for the Government to sign on to what we hope would be a narrowly focused and specific review, not general but tied to the various pinch points that we have encountered in our journey through these amendments today.
For example on the question of paternity pay, could we have a review that picked up the particularity of the point that was made in another place? The Minister’s counterpart in the other place said that the although the powers to allow the extension to paid paternity leave would be in the Bill, there would be a delay in making the extension until flexible parental leave had been fully embedded and we could assess the impact on shared parenting. Okay, let the review assess both whether parental leave has been fully embedded and the impact on shared parenting, tying it in to that arrangement. The question would follow naturally for the review as to whether the objective of encouraging more fathers to take leave had worked, and whether the amount of paid leave available to fathers in their own right was suitable in the light of the objective.
The Government have also said that they will consider making arrangements for working parents who do not meet the qualifying criteria to receive statutory payments, but this provision could not be introduced before 2018 to allow time for development and—a very important point—to ensure that it interacts appropriately with the new universal credit system. As we all know, the new universal credit system is not moving along at quite the pace that its originators would perhaps wish, so that may impact on the timing of the review, but I hope that it will not. Again, it would be appropriate to tie this review in to those things.
There are a number of particularities within the debate that we have had today which I offer to the Minister as being exemplars of the reasons to do a targeted review so that we can continue the sort of debates that we have been having here. We have a joint purpose of trying to make this legislation better, and it would be greatly informed if we could agree on the format of a review that would answer the questions that we should like answered.
Amendment 268A is slightly different. It is to try to inculcate a change in culture—we have talked about culture a lot in today’s discussions. This is about the move from a labour market scene that is largely dominated by fixed hours and fixed-time contracts to one that would be based on the starting assumption that all employment contracts, in time, could be flexible. If that were to be the case, we would have a situation where a number of the issues that we have raised again in discussing today’s amendments would fall away because the flexibility that would be innate in any job would allow for care concerns, problems around bereavement, issues around changes such as the onset of disability, or the tragedies that happen in families. All those things would be easier to deal with if the basic paradigm for employment were flexibility.
In the sense that this is something where we have a shared purpose that this would be a good thing—indeed, there are many examples I could give of employers that have set out to say that they are filling all future posts on a flexible basis—we would like to see flexible working become the norm, which would allow a number of good things to flow from that. The question is: how would we do that? Could we have a campaign? Could the Government put all posts within government services on a flexible basis? Could they set themselves as a standard bearer for this new approach? The amendment seeks to probe whether there is willingness within the operations of government, and more broadly within the workplace, to get on this bandwagon of moving towards flexible working, which seems to carry with it the seeds of much of what we have discussed today, which we would all find desirable. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the introduction of shared parental leave and the extension of the right to request flexible working are significant steps forward in creating the right environment for modern workplaces. This Government have committed to a policy of regular review of legislation to ensure that laws operate in the way in which they were intended and that they are still relevant. Shared parental leave will be no exception. This review will take place at the earliest opportunity when appropriate data are available. The Government will have to look at the take-up of the policy and the impact it has had on achieving one of the key policy aims of enabling shared parenting in the UK.
I make the commitment in this Committee that the Government will review shared parental leave as soon as appropriate data become available. The review will consider whether shared parental leave has gone far enough to encourage fathers to take a more active role in the care of their children in the early months following birth. As I mentioned earlier, the Government are taking powers in this Bill to allow for the extension of paternity pay, which would enable the Government to extend paternity leave and pay at a later date through secondary legislation.
Alongside reviewing the take-up of shared parental leave by fathers, the review will also look at whether the shared parental leave provisions are supporting all families in the most effective way. This may include parents of multiple births, provisions for self-employed parents and whether shared parental leave and pay can be made to work on a part-time basis.
Amendment 268A would require an annual review of the promotion of flexible working to employers and employees. The right to request flexible working was first introduced in 2003. That right has been very effective in encouraging employers to adopt flexible working practices within their businesses. It also reassures employees that their request for flexible working will be taken seriously.
The Government believe that flexible working should no longer be seen as a concession to families and those with caring responsibility. The benefits of flexible working are experienced by businesses, regardless of why an employee wishes to work flexibly, and I applaud the work that the previous Government did in promoting flexible working. Survey data show that, thanks to the existing right to request flexible working, 90% of employees have access to at least one flexible working arrangement. I hope that this will prompt a certain glow on the face of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, opposite.
Many businesses across a variety of sectors recognise the benefits that flexible working can bring. The Government have been working with a number of organisations to promote the benefits of flexible working, and will continue working with businesses to increase the awareness of flexible working arrangements.
Clause 106 requires the Secretary of State to review the effectiveness of changes to flexible working legislation made in the Bill and the extent to which the changes achieve the objectives of the policy. The Government will conduct this review within seven years of the implementation of the flexible working provisions of the Bill. The review will include reviewing the effectiveness of communicating with employers on the benefits of flexible working and make recommendations on whether additional communication of the right is needed.
I recognise that seven years is a longer period than the amendment would require. The legislation on flexible working aims to encourage a cultural change in the way that employers and employees work together. Much reference has been made to the question of culture this afternoon. Experience tells us that cultural change does not happen overnight and certainly not within one year. Culture change is best measured through survey data on how employee behaviour and attitudes are changing. For this reason it is right that any review of flexible working promotion gives the legislation the opportunity to change cultural behaviours before it is reviewed.
Nevertheless, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, for the opportunity to discuss this in Committee. I hope that the commitment for review I have made today will reassure them, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for his comments. The timescale seems incredibly long—seven years is too long—but I will read Hansard carefully and reflect on what he has said, and we will consider our position. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Pitkeathley
“Welfare of disabled children
(1) The Children Act 1989 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 23A insert—
“23AA Welfare of disabled children
Regulations, subject to approval by resolution of both Houses of Parliament, shall provide for those who care for disabled children to have the same entitlement to a carer’s assessment as young carers and adults caring for adults.””
Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)
My Lords, I begin by apologising for being such a latecomer to this Bill, over which so many of your Lordships have laboured long and hard. The reason is simply the clash of commitments that we so often have to contend with in your Lordships’ House: I was very involved with the Care Bill, and it is on the subject of the Care Bill that I now rise to speak.
Your Lordships will know that the Care Bill enshrines in legislation many more rights for carers than hitherto. Adult carers featured strongly in the Care Bill and thanks to the Government being willing to listen and amend the Bill—and to what we might call a pincer movement between the Care Bill and the Children and Families Bill—young carers have similarly been well recognised. However, in spite of much effort—much of it focused in this Bill by many noble Lords and noble Baronesses present today—the rights of parent carers remain weaker than those of other carers.
When I moved a similar amendment to the Care Bill, the Minister was kind enough to say that he recognised my concerns and would consider them. The outcome of those considerations was that the proposal would sit better in this Bill and it is for that reason I am moving it today. Briefly, as I know that many noble Lords are familiar with the issues, the purpose is to strengthen the rights of those who care for a disabled child to receive an assessment of their need for support in line with the assessment rights of adults caring for adults and of young carers.
It is vital that the rights of parent carers to assessment and support are not lost in the current legislative reform of carers’ rights and that their rights are enhanced along with those of other carers.
Like other carers, parents of disabled children already have an existing right to request a separate assessment of their own needs, which is in addition to having their needs assessed as part of their child’s assessment under the Children Act 1989. The existing rights for parents to have their needs assessed separately were introduced in three Private Members’ Bills, with which I was involved and which will be familiar to many of your Lordships. The three Acts were taken through Parliament with cross-party support, in recognition of the huge contribution that carers make and of the need to set out clearly in law their rights to receive support for their care and their right to a life outside caring.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I am pleased to have been able to add my name to the amendment moved by my noble friend and apologise for having jumped the gun on this issue on our 10th day in Committee. The Minister, in replying, said then:
“There is a strong framework of support already in place to support parent carers under the Children Act 1989 and in new provisions in Part 3 of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 11/11/13; col. GC 196.]
However, this is not how carers’ organisations see it. They are arguing for a stronger and more coherent right to an assessment on behalf of parent carers. My noble friend has made the case very well and I will not add much to that, but it is important that we take this opportunity to consolidate and clarify the law for parent carers alongside that of adult carers and young carers.
I find it strange that Mr Timpson in the Commons argued in a Written Answer to Paul Burstow:
“Amending the Children Act 1989 to assess the needs of parent-carers separately from children would risk the needs of the children becoming second to those of their parent”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/11/13; col. 506W.]
I cannot see the logic of this argument, given the whole-family approach that the Government are quite rightly espousing—and my noble friend has disputed the argument. Could the Minister clarify why the Government believe that this would be the case? Why does it undermine the rights of the children to have a clearer right for their parents when the family is living as a family?
It is important to make sure that parent carers’ entitlement to assessment and support is better understood as well as strengthened. There seems to be confusion over this. Both the Minister’s response when we last discussed this briefly and the Government’s response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights referred only to the Children Act and not to the rights that exist in the carers legislation. The point has been made that we run the risk of burying this important entitlement under layers of law and a confusing web of guidance. It almost seems as if it is so deeply buried that the Government themselves are not totally aware of the nature of all these rights. This is an opportunity to clarify and to bring it into the new legislation so that it is not left behind in what my noble friend has called “rump legislation”. This is a vital opportunity that we really must not lose. I am glad that there is going to be a meeting and I hope that the Minister can clarify why there is this belief that the needs of children are being pitted against those of their parents. I hope that we can resolve this because it is not, in a sense, producing something completely new.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield
My Lords, I rise briefly to lend my support to this amendment. The hour is late and I will be brief. I am one of that band of noble Lords who were involved at all stages of the Care Bill and I think we have made great strides in joining up the Care Bill and the Children and Families Bill. I salute Ministers for having done that. I particularly pay tribute to Ministers for what they have done on young carers. We now have a set of rights for young carers which is so much stronger than before and that is a real landmark. Through the Care Bill, we have got improved rights for adult carers to assessment and support, and I applaud the Government for doing that. We have got much improved rights for young carers through the Children and Families Bill, linking in nicely with the Care Bill, and again I applaud the Government for doing that. We just have this one group left: the parent carers, who generally care for disabled children. If we could just get that missing bit of the jigsaw all sorted out so that all carers had the same set of rights to assessment and support, I think that it would be a tremendous step forward for carers in this country. I am encouraged to hear that meetings are still taking place and I hope that the Minister may have some encouraging news for us that the missing bit of the jigsaw is going to be put into place. We can all then be absolutely proud of what these two Bills together have done for carers.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, very briefly, it was only about an hour ago that we had exactly the same situation having to be sorted out for kinship carers. For goodness’ sake, parent carers are about as kinship as you can get, and if they cannot be rolled into the same set up of proper analysis and proper attention to their needs, then what can happen? I hope the Minister is going to move this thing on as quickly as possible.
Baroness Hollins (CB)
My Lords, parents of disabled children often do not see themselves as carers, but they are. Their need for support has been argued and won over the past 20 years. They really are different from other parents. Their right to be able to have a life alongside caring for their disabled child has been fought for very successfully. Parent carers are often so focused on the needs of their child that they forget about their own health and well-being. It could be argued that failing to recognise the needs of the parent carer is against their right to a family life under the Human Rights Act. I was involved with a WHO/Europe declaration, Better Health, Better Lives, which was about the health and well-being of children and young people with intellectual disabilities across Europe and their families. It was signed by all the Health Ministers, including our own, in 2012. One of the 10 recommendations was about identifying the needs for support of parent carers. I join my voice to that of the noble Baroness in this amendment. What is the Government’s rationale for allowing that the carers of a disabled 13 year-old would effectively have rights inferior to those of the carers of an 18 year-old? I hope that the Minister will be able to respond.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I wish to support the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, in this amendment. The Minister is right in saying that the framework is there in the present legislation or, at least, it should be there. The difficulty is that, because the focus among those who make assessments is split between adults and children and we do not have holistic family assessments, often the parents are lost. A family whom I met recently had just, after many years, been given a period of respite care, but the parent carers had not realised that that would make the difference in their being able to continue to care for their son, an extremely difficult young man. A series of workers had never suggested to them that their needs might be met in order to meet the needs of their child. That is the important message that front-line workers need to understand. This amendment would help them to understand that, unless you meet the needs of parents, you do not meet the needs of children.
I, too, had this query when I heard that it had been commented that to assess parents would undermine the rights of children. Assessing parents enhances the rights of children. Many of us who have worked in this field and continue to work with and meet families see it regularly. We also see when people fail to notice that parent carers are beginning to fail, simply because of their exhaustion and the fact that they have had no relief and no assessment for any kind of services, sometimes quite small ones that would make all the difference to their being able to continue.
I support this because we should have a family approach whereby children with disabilities will be maintained in their own homes rather than having to go into caring facilities because their parents are unable to look after them. I am losing my power of speech, like most of us at this time of night, so I leave it there. My only other point is that the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, made a passionate speech about integration, which I think we all feel should happen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the important issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. I recognise the tremendous job that parent carers of disabled children do and the challenges that it can bring. It is right that children’s legislation is the place to address this. I am pleased that the Minister for Children and Families will be meeting Paul Burstow to discuss this further.
We are confident that there is a strong framework of support in place to support parent carers of disabled children. Parent carers’ needs can be assessed as part of assessing the needs of children in need under the Children Act 1989. Local authorities can provide services to the family members of a child in need with a view to safeguarding or promoting the child’s welfare.
As parents, and as adults caring for children, parent carers are in a very different position from adults caring for adults or young carers. We should be wary of simply replicating arrangements that are in place for those other carers without understanding the interrelationship with other legislation and the potential for unintended consequences. Unlike for young carers, where we have responded to specific concerns and substantial evidence, there is a lack of evidence for the need to change the type of support or the way in which it is provided for parent carers of disabled children. That is not to say that everything is perfect, nor to underplay the challenges that parents of disabled children face, nor to claim that all parent carers receive the support that they need. However, it is not clear that specific changes to legislation are the answer.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, I had hoped that we were making a bit of progress, but I am having a kind of throwback moment. When many of us first started getting the issue of carers on to the social policy agenda—many noble Lords here will remember that—I used to be told, “Oh, you can’t think of the needs of carers. The needs of the disabled person or the older person have to be paramount and you’ve got to think of those first. If you look at the rights of carers, you’re going to undermine those roots”. I am hearing the same argument tonight and I find it extremely disappointing. However, we made progress on the other matter: everybody now understands that you can look at the rights of the disabled or older person and the rights of carers and not undermine either of them—the two are inextricably entwined. Therefore, I continue to hope that we will still be able to make progress. We have fundamentally failed to get Ministers and their officials to understand that there is a difference between being the parent of a disabled child and being a parent. There is a fundamental difference and it needs to be looked at. Having had the support of so many of my noble colleagues tonight, I feel that I have a window to come back to this on Report. However, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we had been led to believe that this session would finish at 8.15 pm but I have not been briefed about what will happen, so I am in something of a quandary. I wonder if the noble Lord would explain what the position is so that we can understand better what our responsibilities would be to the Bill, before I speak.
Lord Popat (Con)
My Lords, I have spoken to the Chief Whip, and we need to complete the Bill today.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am glad to hear it, but what has that got to do with me?
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I find this very unsatisfactory. As the noble Baroness said, we are all losing our marbles, if not our words. Trying to get through the Bill at this late hour when there are still two very substantial amendments to go is not what was agreed through the usual channels and certainly was not the basis on which we came into this discussion. I continue, but I do so with the feeling that this is not in the spirit of the best use of our time, and your Lordships’ House will be the worse for having to debate late into the night issues that should have seen the fresh light of day—perhaps next Monday, when of course there will be time.
Clause 104 was in my mind when I started the debate earlier—it seems a long time ago now but was in fact earlier this afternoon—by saying that while the Opposition were broadly happy with the measures contained in Parts 6, 7 and 8 of the Bill, there were one or two bits of grit, and this is one of them. Amendments 267L and 267M and the clause stand part Motion are grouped together in one place so that we can have a debate about them. While they all bear on the same area, they obviously have different impacts. My preference would be for the clause to stand part because I believe that what the Government are trying to do here is antipathetic to the very spirit of British law, which has always recognised the need for a person with a legal case to have the chance to make that case in a court of first instance but, where there have been problems or difficulties with that, the person would then have the right of appeal against decisions taken in the first instance. However, the Bill as it is drafted removes the process by which an employer must respond to an employee’s flexible working request and replaces it with a requirement to respond in a reasonable manner and within a timeframe of three months. We had a debate earlier about the word “reasonable”, and on that occasion the Minister felt unable to accept that word because he felt it was not appropriate for the context in which we were discussing it, although it has come back several times since and he has been quite happy with it. We have a situation here where reasonableness, which in the earlier amendments was a burden on employers, is now okay for employers to use.
The current processes include the provision for an appeal by an employee, and this obviously provides a useful opportunity to discuss why things have not worked out in terms of the process, but the Bill removes that. The history to this is interesting. ACAS consulted on a draft code of practice for the extended right to request flexible working, and employer bodies such as the CBI, the FSB, recruiters, the TUC, EHRC, Opportunity Now and Working Families acted as advisers on the draft code. The group agreed, and the draft code recognised, that an appeal is important. The draft code said:
“If you reject the request you should allow your employee to appeal the decision. It can be helpful to allow an employee to speak with you about your decision as this may reveal new information or an omission in following a reasonable procedure when considering the application”.
Anybody reading that would recognise its antecedents in criminal law and civil law where clearly those who have cases—as I have said—can make them in the first instance and then, if there are difficulties, can appeal against some of the decisions in order that they can be better refined and reconsidered. We believe it is important that the Bill and the code are consistent to provide clarity to employers and certainty to employees that appeals are to be allowed. The amendment would make it clear on the face of the Bill that appeals remain an important part of the process of considering flexible working requests.
In Committee in the Commons, the Government argued that the amendment would mean that an employee always had a right of appeal, and that this would be burdensome and bureaucratic in a very small organisation. If it was an absolute right of appeal, that might be the case, but appeals are usually constrained by matters of fact or law and one would expect that normal processes would be applied. We argue that a very small organisation would be able to deal swiftly with an appeal, but allowing an appeal is important for procedural fairness and may reduce the use of grievance procedures instead. Sometimes employers do not give a statutory business reason for refusing a request, and that could give rise to an appeal. In addition, once the employee understands the employer’s business reasons for refusing a request to work flexibly, they may be more able to negotiate a solution, so it is a win-win all round.
I would ask the Minister to think again about this issue. It is important to retain what we normally expect as the right approach towards consideration of these quasi disciplinary matters. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I welcome the debate on the new arrangements for considering a statutory request for flexible working. Even at this late hour, I recognise the importance that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, attaches to this amendment and I hope that my reply attaches the same degree of importance to it.
The current right to request flexible working has been a success, with 80% to 90% of requests being accepted. However, that does not mean that the right cannot be improved. Clause 104 will remove the statutory procedure for dealing with applications for flexible working and replace it with a duty on employers to consider applications in a reasonable manner. Many employers like the structure and confidence that the current procedure gives them when considering applications. Those employers will be able to continue to use this procedure even when it is not compulsory and can be confident that in doing so they will be likely to be acting in a reasonable manner. Many other employers, however, would like to consider applications in innovative and effective ways which are currently not allowed by the statutory procedure.
The Government have asked ACAS to develop a statutory code of practice to explain to employers what will be considered to be reasonable when considering a flexible working application. ACAS consulted in February this year on the contents of the statutory code of practice. The consultation version of the code of practice states:
“If you reject the request you should allow your employee to appeal the decision. It can be helpful to allow an employee to speak with you about your decision as this may reveal new information or an omission in following a reasonable procedure when considering the application”.
The Government want to encourage employers to allow their employees to appeal a decision where it is appropriate. However, it may not always be appropriate. This extension to the right to request flexible working aims to encourage more employers to consider how flexible working could work within their business. It is not about creating or maintaining a process and procedure for employers to follow. I would like to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that while the Government do not believe that offering an appeal will be appropriate in all circumstances, we anticipate that the statutory code of practice and the supporting guidance issued by ACAS will encourage employers to offer their employee an appeal and to explain the benefits that offering an appeal can bring. Accordingly, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Perhaps the noble Viscount could run through that last bit again. I am sorry, it is late and I am not working quite to my maximum efficiency. One of the points I made in my speech was the discontinuity between the code and what is being said in the legislation. If the code is going to say that the reasonable expectation is that employers shall provide an appeal, why is it not also appropriate to ensure that the statute says the same thing?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
We believe that the supporting guidance issued by ACAS will be enough to act as a nudge factor to encourage employers to offer an appeal. Together with the guidance that we will be providing, we believe that this will explain the benefits that offering an appeal can bring. I hope that this provides reassurance, short of bringing in legislation. The code is statutory, so it should be read alongside the legislation.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
All right, I think I am getting there. There will be a code which will have statutory backing. The code will make it very clear that an employee making such a request which has been turned down, perhaps for no sufficient reason, will have a statutorily underpinned right to appeal that because that is what the code, which is expected to be applied by employers, will say. The noble Viscount does not need to come back on that but perhaps he can write to me on the point.
I am missing my letters—I have not had a letter from the noble Viscount for at least a week. For those of your Lordships who may think that this is a rather recherché, arch exchange across the Committee Room, we have a running joke between us because of the number of times we have to appear opposite each other. The noble Viscount has gained an enviable reputation for being a prolific letter writer. Whenever there is a doubt, we get a letter, so on this occasion, may I have my letter and I will consider it? The noble Viscount is going to speak again, so I cannot.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I can reassure the noble Lord that I would be delighted to furnish him with yet another letter and I will make sure that the reference is clearly written on it. The noble Lord mentioned the word “grit” earlier this afternoon and I hope that I can reassure him that the grit in the code is the statutory backing, and that the code is to be read alongside the legislation.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Not all grit is bad grit. An oyster produces pearls. Perhaps on this occasion the pearl has been provided. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Grand Committee
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Children and Families Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Benjamin
“Part 8AChildren participation in performancesChildren participation in performances
(1) Section 25 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (restrictions on persons under eighteen going abroad for the purpose of performing for profit) is amended as follows.
(2) For subsection (1)(a) substitute—
“(a) for the purposes of taking part in a performance to which section 37(2) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 applies,”.(3) In subsection (1)—
(a) for “this section” substitute “section 37 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963”,(b) omit paragraph (a) and after “granted in respect of him under” omit “this” and after “section” insert “37 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963”.(4) Subsections (2) to (11) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 are omitted.
(5) Section 37 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 (restrictions on persons under 16 taking part in public performances, etc.) is amended as follows.
(6) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) For the purposes of subsection (2), a performance does not include participation in—
(a) filming by private individuals for uploading onto the internet for transmission (“user generated content”);(b) observational documentaries in which the child’s life and routine remains to a significant degree the same as it would have been had filming not been taking place;(c) unplanned and spontaneous filming where parental consent is subsequently obtained for the purposes of broadcasting;(d) filming in the context of news and current affairs journalism, or filming in the public interest in circumstances where it is not practicable to apply for a licence, without prejudice to the effect of sections 39 and 49; or(e) any further category as the Secretary of State may specify by way of regulations.”(7) After subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) Where subsection (2A)(b) to (e) applies such that no licence is required, the person responsible for filming the child shall carry out an assessment of risk prior to the filming taking place, save where it is not possible to do so, in which case such a risk assessment must be carried out as soon as possible after such filming takes place.”
(8) In subsection (4) after “will not suffer” insert “and in particular, that the child would not be subjected to any risk beyond that involved in the ordinary course of their life”.
(9) In subsection (5) after “imposed by the authority” insert “; such conditions shall however, seek to minimise any differences in conditions imposed in relation to different media and any such differences must be necessary and objectively justified for the purposes of protecting the child against a specified risk, and in particular, regulations shall not prohibit the recording or broadcast of live performances where the child’s participation in that live performance is permitted by the relevant licence”.
(10) After subsection (1)(b) insert—
“(c) go abroad for the purposes of a performance to which subsection 2 applies save that this subsection shall not apply in any case where it is proved that the child was only temporarily resident within the United Kingdom.”(11) Section 38 is repealed.
(12) Section 42 is repealed.”
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, first, I declare an interest as an independent film and television producer, making predominately children’s programmes.
So far, we have had a great deal of rich debate on the Children and Families Bill—right to the very end. The majority of our debates have had the protection of children at their very heart. This is no less the case with this set of amendments on child performance—a subject very close to my heart.
For children, having the opportunity to participate on a film or television set, on stage or in a sporting event can be of huge benefit. It may be an exciting step in their performance career, give them an all-important confidence boost or simply be something that they remember for ever.
However, at the moment many children are prevented from taking part in performance due to antiquated and out-of-date legislation from the 1960s. That was a time when there were only three channels, and there were not the wide variety and diversity of opportunities for children that are available today. More importantly, the current legislation fails to provide strong safeguards and protection for children in today’s changing environment. The current legislation is simply not fit for purpose and desperately needs updating.
Under the current regime, seeking a performance licence can be difficult, time-consuming and unpredictable. Some local authorities simply act in such a way as to deny licences to children in their region as a matter of course. Others feel that they must apply the current legislation to the letter, and therefore they, too, deny children licences in their regions, while others try to help parents, children and the industry by pushing the confines of the legislation as far as they feel they can. With some local authorities licensing freely and others failing to do so, we have what can only be described as a postcode lottery in which there is no equality of opportunity for children. This is clearly not what we should be promoting in a progressive and diverse country such as the UK.
In 2010, Sarah Thane, who was a content and standards adviser at Ofcom, carried out a comprehensive review into all aspects of child performance regulations. The report concluded that the system of licensing child performance needed urgent and radical overhaul. In February this year, the Government published the results of a wide-ranging public consultation. While a range of views was given, there was broad consensus in many areas, including on the fact that legislative change was needed to improve the situation.
I am sure that noble Lords will have noticed that there is no current wording on child performance in the Children and Families Bill. However, I see the Bill as an ideal opportunity to deliver much-needed change and to provide a better legal framework that will both protect and safeguard children and young people and, more importantly, give them equal access to opportunities. The changes will give clearer guidance, transparency and consistency among local authorities when dealing with these matters.
At this stage of the Bill, I am not suggesting that we try to change the whole of the out-of-date 1960s Act. These focused and targeted amendments are addressing the major concerns that urgently need reform. So what do they seek to achieve? I will talk about three key areas of focus: first, improving equality of opportunity; secondly, improving safeguarding and risk assessment; and, thirdly, working with local authorities to achieve compliance.
On equality of opportunity, at the moment not all children or even types of participation and performance are treated equally. Currently, the narrow definition covers only acting, singing or dancing and does not include the wealth of opportunities available to children in the 21st century, such as observational documentaries, reality shows or educational programmes. Only recently, an important educational documentary, which was to be filmed at the British Museum, nearly did not get the go-ahead because of the failures of the current legislation. These amendments would do away with this restrictive definition and allow all children under 14 to participate in a range of performances.
At this point, I want to make it absolutely clear that the rules in the amendments would not cover circumstances where someone has filmed content and put it on the internet themselves—also known as user-generated content—or where the filming involves children in the ordinary course of a child’s life, in which case there is no impact on them. This would include documentaries, news and vox pops, where it is simply not feasible to seek a licence in advance.
However, even here the amendments would still require a risk assessment and duty of care for the child when the programme is broadcast. The amendments would also put an end to different mediums, such as television and theatre, being treated differently. This would end the bizarre situation—for example, as happens with the Royal Variety Performance—where children cannot perform after 7 pm purely because the live theatre show is also being broadcast on television. Had the cameras not been there, the children could have performed. This is becoming a recurring problem as many theatre performances involving children are now being recorded live to be shown in cinemas across the country to make art and culture more accessible. Noble Lords might have read recently about the talented choirboy who missed out on the experience of a lifetime of performing in the Royal Albert Hall at the Last Night of the Proms. Because the selected young soloist would have been singing after 7 pm, the organisers had to use an adult to sing instead. The young boy was denied a wonderful opportunity.
I now turn to improving safeguarding. These amendments have the safeguarding and protection of children at their very heart. Even though we are removing old and narrow definitions, this is absolutely not about deregulation. It is about better and more consistent regulation. The amendment would introduce a proper risk assessment for producers to complete which would be approved by local authorities. The risk assessment will cover all health and welfare issues and ensure that they are properly and professionally addressed. These changes will provide clarity and consistency. They will also make sure that any British child performing overseas has the same level of protection as a child performing in the UK. This does not happen at the moment.
Finally, on working with local authorities to achieve compliance, from my conversations with the Local Government Association, I have found that it is supportive and agrees that times have changed since the 1960s. It, too, feels that the legislation needs to be updated. I have met Councillor David Simmonds, the chair of the LGA children’s board. He expressed the LGA’s concern about the existing regulations and said how exposed and uncomfortable it feels with them as they stand. This is why we need to be working with local authorities now, as they, too, recognise that the creative industries are an important driver of the economy and offer many employment and personal development opportunities.
If the amendments are agreed, the industry will work with the LGA to develop a risk assessment framework that will streamline the system and reduce bureaucracy. These amendments are absolutely not about creating more work and headaches for local authorities. The legislation would put the responsibility in the hands of the producer to achieve the required standards of risk assessment. This would be delivered through an agreed and standardised format. Local authorities would then be freed to learn more about the work of production companies and to focus more on the critical compliance issues. A great deal of work has already been done by the industry to develop a risk assessment framework, and it is ready to be developed further.
Finally, I point out that these amendments have been developed in collaboration with an industry-wide coalition of public service broadcasters, including the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Pact—the Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television. There is strong support from the National Network for Children in Employment and Entertainment, chaperones, schools and child psychologists. The amendments also have cross-party support, including from the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, chair of the Lords Communications Committee.
I hope the Minister will agree that this Bill offers a key opportunity to address safeguarding for children around performance. These amendments would make sure that all children, no matter where they live around the country, have equal and safe access to positive development opportunities. So let us take this opportunity to update antiquated legislation that is not fit for purpose. We simply cannot leave this for another 50 years. I ask the Government to support these amendments and send out a clear message to all involved with child performance regulations that government are taking action now. I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I am a firm supporter of child protection, as well as someone with a long-standing interest and involvement in broadcasting issues. The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, aims to improve the legislative framework to the benefit of both those areas, ultimately providing children with more opportunities to participate in performances of all kinds under a clear and robust framework of protection. I therefore very much welcome and support Amendment 268.
Most of your Lordships will be familiar with the appearance of children on our television screens, whether it is in documentaries, dedicated children’s shows, dramas or entertainment programmes. Children benefit from these appearances by gaining confidence and new skills, and it is important for society as a whole that children are both seen and heard in the media. Equally, we can all agree that children should have the right to participate in such programmes and that the process for ensuring that they are appropriately protected should be clear and consistent. As we have heard, unfortunately at present this is not the case.
In particular, I welcome the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, around improving equality of opportunity. I have been a long-standing campaigner for equal opportunities for adults, and they are of equal importance for children. The noble Baroness talked about how some local authorities deny children in their regions the opportunities to participate, while others try to navigate the legislation. It cannot be an acceptable state of affairs for some children to be given the opportunity to participate in a programme while others are denied it purely because of the lottery, as the noble Baroness said, of where they happen to live. That must be changed so that all children of all ages can participate in a full range of programmes.
Protection of the child is at the heart of our discussions throughout the Bill and must be at the heart of any considerations here. I am assured that the broadcasting industry is not looking to get out of its responsibilities. As the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said, this is about better regulation, which is the goal of all who sit in this House. The amendment would introduce a comprehensive, standardised risk assessment, covering all possible health and welfare issues, and make it more efficient and consistent. It would be underpinned by the existing regulatory framework that would continue to be in place.
Broadcasters are obliged under the Ofcom Broadcasting Code to have a duty of care to the,
“physical and emotional welfare and the dignity of people under eighteen”,
participating in programmes. That applies to all television programmes at all times. I know that a great deal of guidance is issued and that efforts are made by all in the industry to meet these responsibilities.
The amendment is aimed at providing much-needed reform to the current system and replacing it with a more consistent, clearer and, above all, fairer framework that puts risk at its heart. That means that rather than spending their time trying to navigate the complex laws and arbitrary definitions, the production companies, local authorities and broadcasters can better spend their time analysing the real risks and putting child protection more at the heart of their work. These changes will provide clarity and consistency to ensure that every child in performance is properly protected and that all children are licensed. I therefore urge your Lordships, particularly the Minister, to support this amendment.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a television producer for the BBC. I support the amendment. It will both encourage children to extend their skills and protect them from the possible threats posed by the proliferation of new media platforms. It responds to the explosion in the range of media in which children can now appear. It takes into account the ever-changing programming available today, as factual and entertainment programmes are commissioned to entertain an audience with an increasingly short attention span and greater demands to be surprised and shocked.
The amendment would introduce a consistent local authority licensing system for under-16s who perform in the visual media, as we have already heard. As a television producer, it might seem odd that I should want to make my life and that of my colleagues more difficult by extending the regulatory regime, so that we would have to do more work when preparing for a production that involves young people. But it is because I am a television producer that I am well aware of how the present regulatory system is failing children. It often frustrates the hopes of children while failing to protect them from the dangers that may await them.
The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, explained the chaotic postcode lottery of different local authorities and their responses, which is very difficult for producers in the media who want to work with children. There is a case of children in a school that served two neighbouring local education authorities. The school was asked to take part in a concert to be broadcast on television. But when it came to transmission, only half the choir had permission to perform. One authority had given a licence to perform and the neighbouring authority had refused. How on earth can that be fair on the children involved?
Subsection (6) of the proposed new clause is in line with paragraph 104 of Sarah Thane’s review, which calls for a proper definition of what constitutes “performance”. The subsection is very important. It spells out which filmed activities involving children do not require a licence, although they will still of course require permission from parents and head teachers. It makes clear that everything else would be covered by the licensing system. The result would be that many new genres, which at present are not covered, would be included.
For instance, there is a new type of programming called structured reality TV, which masquerades as observational documentary while in fact the participants are open to direction. The genre covers shows such as “The Only Way is Essex” and “Made in Chelsea”, with which I am sure your Lordships will be familiar, which are massively popular with a young audience. At the beginning of the show “TOWIE”, viewers are mischievously warned, “Some of the tans you see might be fake, but these are real people, although some of what they do has had a little nip and tuck purely for your entertainment”. The warning should give the Committee a clue that the characters are subject to a narrative created by producers in which they are directed in a situation to ensure maximum drama, violence and even sex.
The Committee will be pleased to hear that at the moment most of the participants in these shows are aged over 18, but there are attempts to commission versions with much younger characters. The executive producer of “The Only Way is Essex” has said that when the producers are casting characters for these reality shows, they have to read them what is called “the talk of doom”, in which they warn them that people chosen to appear in the show will be recognised and abused in the street, their private lives will be watched and criticised by millions and their lives will be completely changed, not always for the better.
Apparently, the candidates, all from the social media generation, look at the executive producer with blank incomprehension. They cannot understand why they are even being warned about this. These young people’s private lives are already open books, thanks to social media. I fear that there is a generation who do not understand how psychologically damaging it can be have your privacy destroyed. We as lawmakers need to protect them and ensure that in an ever-changing media environment they are not exploited by the ruthless demands of the media.
Subsections (7), (8) and (9) of the proposed new clause are in line with the recommendations in paragraph 92 of Sarah Thane’s review, which suggests that, when it comes to licensing, the focus should be on the child—on what they are being asked to do and on the level of risk involved. This would ensure, as has already been said by noble Lords, that the consideration by local authorities of the risk to children is uniform and thorough. At the moment, decisions made by LEAs can be irrational. There was recently a case of a six year-old boy who was mentored and trained by the Olympic diver, Tom Daley, and who wanted to appear with him on the ITV show, “Splash”. All he wanted to do was dive with his hero on television, but at the last minute his local LEA in Cornwall refused him a licence to appear on the grounds that he was too young. You can imagine his disappointment.
If this amendment is adopted, a licensing code of practice will be rolled out uniformly to all local authorities across the country. Its risk assessment will cover the mental and physical health of the young people taking part in performances. Obviously, the risk assessments should be adhered to, but in the present climate of pressures on budgets and the intense competition to surprise and shock audiences across the media, enforcement will be crucial. The new system must include a tough regime of inspection of productions that involve children.
We are in a new world. The internet and digital television offer us a jungle of diversity and shock. We need to update, streamline and extend our present licensing system. Only then will our children’s performances on the media be directed with their best mental and physical welfare being at the heart of the production. I urge noble Lords to support this amendment.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I am tempted to suggest that perhaps there ought to be some regulations regarding the times that we can perform, so that we know when we will start and finish and that we are being safeguarded correctly—but clearly that is not going to happen.
I went along to an all-party group looking at children and young performers in the media. I did not realise the problems that not only children face in terms of safeguarding. I am being told to shut up—you see, I cannot even perform.
I will make three very quick points. First, the legislation that was quite rightly introduced in the early 1960s was to protect children, but since then history has moved on. Times have moved on. Never mind a few television channels, we have hundreds of them. We are seeing the law being broken. There are television shows that are breaking the law. There are others that are playing by the outdated 1960s regulations. For example, a poor lad wins a talent competition, but because the witching hour has passed, he has to sit in the audience and cannot be part of the winning group.
I remind noble Lords of the three concepts that my noble friend Lady Benjamin spoke about: consistency, transparency and making sure that safeguarding happens. Currently, safeguarding does not happen. If we take only one thing from this rather truncated discussion, it should be that safeguarding children has to be not only about safeguarding them as individuals but about safeguarding their opportunities. It cannot be right that children in some local authorities are allowed to take part while in other local authorities they are not.
When the Minister replies—briefly, no doubt—I ask him to consider how we can make this happen, because we cannot have legislation trying to protect our young people that goes back to the early 1960s. I had lots more to say, but perhaps I can save that for another time—or, hopefully, not.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who contributed to this debate. It is a good topic and one which we have been happy to put our names to in order for it to have the best possible chance of being successful.
The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, will not mind me saying that when I first came down as a raw and untutored-in-the-cinematic-arts person from Scotland, she was one of the first people I met. She wowed me then, and she wows me now. That performance—Floella, you were wonderful.
I am very pleased to be able to support this update of legislation that was last updated in 1963. Clearly, as we have heard, the world of television and film performance has been transformed since then. As noble Lords mentioned, it is important that the legislation properly reflects the full range of opportunities available to young people and at the same time builds in safeguards that will protect them from exploitation or physical or mental harm.
However, the chance to be involved in film and television work—indeed, this also applies to stage work—depends where you live, with local authorities operating rules in a very inconsistent way. There are also huge disparities in the amount of paperwork required. We need to update the legislation. It needs to widen the types of involvement suitable for child participants and to make sure that it covers the range, as has been mentioned, away from just simply acting and singing. What a wonderful world 1963 must have been if that was all you could do. I would not know. “Stop mucking about”.
Lord Nash
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Benjamin and all other noble Lords who spoke in this important debate. My noble friend Lady Benjamin makes a heartfelt case for updating the law in this area. Her long involvement with the performing arts and her work with children make her extremely well qualified to speak on these matters—as of course is my noble friend Lord Colville.
The achievements of the UK broadcasting sector and the importance of the creative arts to our economy cannot be overestimated. Our cultural industries are recognised throughout the world for their groundbreaking innovation and their wealth of creative talent. We are proud of that, and we should continue to support them to grow and achieve. We must nurture our young talent. The child performance licensing system was designed to allow children to take part in performances and, importantly, to ensure that arrangements are in place to protect them when they do. The broad framework has done that effectively and continues to do so. This is also something to be proud of.
The system was designed in an age when broadcasting was in its infancy. New forms of media that are commonplace today were unheard of then. Our attitudes to children and to art have also moved with the times. However, some aspects of the licensing framework clearly have not. That is why, last year, the Government consulted on proposals for change. The consultation highlighted a number of problems. Some problems certainly stem from different local approaches to administration, as noble Lords have said. I welcome Councillor Simmonds’s leadership in tackling this. I recognise his concerns, and I am pleased that the Local Government Association plans to promote best practice to achieve greater consistency and reduce bureaucracy in this area.
We want to see more use of the flexibilities that already exist, especially when children perform in a non-professional capacity. More amateur groups and charities with a good track record for safeguarding should be approved to involve children in performances without the need for extra paperwork. Paperwork does not protect children.
Problems clearly exist in the system, but responses to our consultation were split on some key proposals. We do not agree the case for wholesale legislative change at this time. It is important that we get the balance right between increasing opportunities for children and protecting them from undue risk. We do not intend to take any action that could reduce the protections that are in place for child performers.
I recognise, however, that there are a small number of legal provisions that currently prevent children from taking up opportunities, for no good reason. We heard recently from the Royal Opera House about how an anomaly in the regulations meant it could not screen a ballet performance to a worldwide audience, or even to the home town of a very talented young dancer. The well-being of children is paramount, but there should not be unnecessary barriers to their taking part in performance arts, or to the airing of their talents.
I listened carefully to what my noble friend Lady Benjamin said tonight and at Second Reading, and to what other noble Lords said, and I am delighted that I shall meet her tomorrow. I look forward to that. We will explore what might be done to remove barriers without unpicking any of the important safeguards, and we are keen to be as helpful as possible. I therefore urge my noble friend Lady Benjamin to withdraw her amendment.
As this is the last debate in Committee, I take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords—those here this evening and those who have attended previous sittings—for their constructive, insightful and expert contributions to our Committee debates on the Bill. I also thank on behalf of us all the chairs, clerks and Hansard for staying on tonight.
This has been a most thorough and comprehensive scrutiny of the Bill. I and my noble friends Lady Northover, Lord McNally, Lord Attlee, Lord Howe and Lord Younger have learnt a great deal from noble Lords. We have a number of meetings already arranged, and I look forward to speaking to noble Lords here today and to many others about the issues that we have debated. I am committed to ensuring that those discussions move forward constructively so that we can resolve many of the issues that we have discussed ahead of Report.
Baroness Benjamin
I thank my noble friend for that response. I think that there is some sort of encouragement there. I cannot quite read the signs, but I hope that when we meet tomorrow I will get something perhaps a bit more constructive and concrete from him.
I am very grateful to all noble Lords who put their names to these amendments—it means so much to me—and to those who spoke so eloquently at this late hour. It is much appreciated. All noble Lords pointed out that the amendments represent an important step-change in addressing inequality as well as ensuring that there are provisions in place for strong safeguards and protection for all children who wish to perform and take part in any aspect of today’s vast media environment. I am encouraged to hear that the Minister will give guidance and recommendations to local authorities on how to have concise, coherent and consistent guidelines. That is wonderful. I strongly believe that we need to go further. I appreciate that using this Bill to solve the problem of children’s performance regulations might not be possible, but this is an important issue that ultimately will need more permanent change to the current outdated legislation.
I will say something now that I will probably say tomorrow—but I want to say it publicly. I intend to bring a Private Member’s Bill at an appropriate point to deal with child performance regulation, bringing it into the 21st century, to cover the range of concerns that those in the industry have with the existing Act. Will the Minister be able to give me a reassurance that the Government will give strong consideration and support to such a Bill if that were the case?
Baroness Benjamin
I thought that my noble friend might say that, but I wanted to say it publicly anyway. I look forward to discussing this matter further. I, too, thank Hansard for staying with us at this late hour to record what we have said on this important issue. With that in mind, I look forward to meeting my noble friend the Minister tomorrow, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“(6) A statutory instrument containing (whether alone or with other provision)—
(a) the first regulations to be made under section 49,(b) an order under section 54(1) or 55(1), or(c) an order under section 108 which amends or repeals any provision of primary legislation,is not to be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”
House of Lords
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prisons: Prisoners with Children
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Benjamin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to record whether or not an individual remanded in custody, or sentenced to prison, has any children.
Baroness Benjamin (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and I declare an interest as a vice-president of Barnardo’s.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)
My Lords, our reforms to transform rehabilitation to bring down reoffending rates will see the introduction of an unprecedented through-the-gate service. Under these plans, we are developing a basic custody screening tool that will be completed by prison staff for all sentenced offenders and remand prisoners. As part of that process, we will record whether an offender has any children.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, Barnardo’s and other leading children’s charities have found that children of prisoners are a very vulnerable group. They are twice as likely to experience depression, mental health problems and drug and alcohol abuse, and to live in poor accommodation. Many go on to offend and yet these children are unlikely to be offered any targeted support. Barnardo’s found that the courts keep no record of them and that there are no requirements to identify them to children’s services. Will the Government create a statutory duty for courts to identify defendants who have dependent children and agree that, by collecting those data, they will be better placed to detect vulnerable children with a parent in prison and ensure that they get the support they need from children’s services?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am not sure that I can give the guarantee of a statutory function for the courts but our reforms for probation will mean that the important function of advising the court prior to sentencing —which will outline the offender’s personal circumstances, including dependants—will remain with public sector probation services. Our reforms to transform rehabilitation will also introduce through-the-gate services for those given custodial sentences.
I appreciate the point that my noble friend makes; it is a worrying factor that many of the young people who come into the criminal justice system are themselves children of offenders. We should certainly be looking at ways to break that circle and trying to make sure that these children are helped away from a life of crime.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, in replying to a debate on this matter on 12 November, the Minister offered a meeting and I certainly look forward to that. I have since read his remarks from that day. When an elderly or disabled person’s carer is sent to prison, the cared-for person often suffers the most as, in many cases, the courts do not even know that they exist. Although I accept that there is the safety net of pre-sentence reports in certain circumstances, when bail is denied there is no pre-sentence report and the court may not know that there is a cared-for person around at all. The consequence is that the cared-for person becomes an unintended victim. How are we going to stop that?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I appreciate very much the point that the noble Lord is making, and I look forward to meeting him and the Prison Advice and Care Trust. In some ways, it is amazing that we are in the 13th or 14th year of the 21st century and that we find these gaps in our care provisions. I often think that it is not that the state does not care but that we are not yet good enough at connecting bits of the state so that people do not fall through the net. As part of the exercise of bringing forward this basic custody screening tool, I hope that by bringing in the expertise of organisations such as PACT we will be able to make sure that people do not slip through the net in the way that the noble Lord suggests.
The Lord Bishop of Birmingham
My Lords, perhaps I may press the Minister a little further. When a court is aware of a child whose parent is imprisoned and that child is in a vulnerable state, will he ensure that the court refers the child to the proper care of the local authority or a charity in the region where that child is living?
Lord McNally
I go back to what I would expect to be common sense in these areas. Courts already have a duty, in every case, to take account of any mitigating factors, including that the offender has primary care responsibilities for children or other dependants. However, it is important that the presence of such dependants is brought to the attention of the court. Again, I can only emphasise that the direction of travel we are going in is to try to make sure that the prison and court authorities are aware of their responsibilities and that they link up with the supporting organisations needed in these cases.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
Are the Government formally evaluating novel schemes, such as that at Doncaster prison, which aim to maintain the bonding between a parent and a child—particularly a new-born baby? The parent’s reoffending rate is lower, bonding takes place and the parental duty is learnt while the person is in prison, rather than it being destroyed during their incarceration.
Lord McNally
Yes, my Lords, we are following the Doncaster experiment. Last month, I announced a new approach to managing female offenders. We are developing the custodial estate so that women can stay closer to home and maintain links with their families, which is important not only for new-born babies but throughout childhood.
Baroness Corston (Lab)
My Lords, 17,000 children a year are affected by their mothers’ imprisonment. Given that the Government plan to close two women’s prisons, which means that there will be only 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales and which will lead to much longer journeys for those visiting their mothers and, often, to catastrophic breaks in the relationship between mother and child, will the Minister confirm that the mother and baby unit at Holloway prison is not subject to closure?
Lord McNally
I am not aware that there is any plan to do that but, if there is, I will write to the noble Baroness. However, such decisions are taken for operational reasons in the region. I have visited the Holloway unit and I know that it is valued because while it is not the most modern prison, it is close to people’s homes. The noble Baroness says that we are closing two women’s prisons, but the major complaint about those prisons which we plan to close is that they are a long way from anywhere, never mind not being close to home. We are developing the custodial estate so that women will be in the prison closest to their home. We have found from all the research that that is the factor which women in prison want. With that, coupled with the rehabilitation reforms and through-the-gate care for women, we hope to be able to address a number of the problems that the noble Baroness is concerned about.
Sentencing Council: Guidelines
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Miller of Hendon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what sentencing guidelines are issued by the Sentencing Council to advise judges on the choice of the imposition of either consecutive or concurrent sentences on persons guilty of multiple offences.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)
My Lords, the Sentencing Council issued the Offences Taken into Consideration and Totality guidelines in June 2012. They state that a concurrent sentence would be appropriate where,
“offences arise out of the same incident or facts”,
and where,
“there is a series of offences of the same … kind”.
A consecutive sentence would be appropriate where,
“offences arise out of unrelated facts”,
or where the offence,
“qualifies for a statutory minimum sentence and concurrent sentences would improperly undermine that minimum”.
Baroness Miller of Hendon (Con)
I thank the Minister for his reply, but does he not agree that perception is everything? The Sentencing Council admits that:
“Concurrent sentences are sometimes thought to mean that an offender is getting away with some offences”.
Why, indeed, should an offender convicted of, say, causing death by dangerous driving, driving while disqualified and driving while uninsured not serve separate consecutive sentences for each offence, so that justice can be seen to be done? Is the Minister aware that justice is not served when the system seems to operate like a supermarket: “Commit one crime and get another one free”?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I appreciate that sometimes the way in which sentences are reported can cause that reaction—but the courts are required to impose a sentence that reflects all the offending behaviour in every case, for both single and multiple offences. With concurrent sentences, the guidelines make it clear that the courts should normally aggravate the primary sentence to reflect the additional offences. These guidelines are about ensuring that the courts apply those principles consistently.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
My Lords, how frequently, if at all, has such guidance been given since the inception of the present rules? If so, in what circumstances has that arisen?
Lord McNally
My Lords, the Sentencing Council is a product of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. I believe that that is a very good piece of legislation, because it places an obligation on courts, when sentencing for offences, to follow the guidelines of the Sentencing Council unless,
“it would be contrary to the interests of justice to do so”.
What that does, I hope—this was the intention of the legislation—is to bring consistency into sentencing, which we hope, as I think our predecessors hoped, gives greater confidence in the criminal justice system.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, the Sentencing Council guideline affirmed what is known as the totality principle. It generally works well in securing a uniform approach to sentencing for multiple offences that balances the need for reflecting overall criminality with the need for sentences that are just and proportionate. But does the Minister agree that, as the noble Baroness’s Question illustrates, much more needs to be done to explain this to a public who are very sceptical?
Lord McNally
Yes, I would agree. The totality principle requires that courts review the aggregate sentence against the totality of the offending behaviour and adjust it to ensure that it is a proportionate overall sentence. The noble Baroness who asked the Question made the point that the public, as they read these reports, are often dissatisfied with what they consider to be soft justice. I think that the more they understand the sentences, the more they will have confidence in them. Another reform by the previous Administration requires that judges more fully explain their judgments, and that is a welcome step in giving people greater confidence about why a particular sentence was given. I confess to a certain reluctance about televising the courts as I am worried that there could be the kind of slippery slope that we see in the American courts, but the changes that I have seen so far should give the public a better understanding of the system, and that can only be to the good.
Project Tempora
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Strasburger
To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Minister first authorised GCHQ’s Project Tempora; when that happened; and why they did not disclose the existence of Project Tempora to the Joint Committee on the Draft Communications Data Bill.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, I hope that your Lordships will understand that it would not be appropriate to discuss the specifics here. However, I can say that GCHQ and all other security and law enforcement agencies operate within a strict legal and policy framework, as set out by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in the other place on 10 June.
Lord Strasburger (LD)
I thank my noble friend for the Answer that she was required to give. In a democracy, wholesale untargeted state intrusion into the private lives of all the people, such as Project Tempora, is unacceptable unless it has the informed consent of the people via their Parliament. However, Parliament has not been informed and has not given its consent to Tempora; nor has the Cabinet, the National Security Council or even, it seems, the ISC. Will the Government acknowledge that the much vaunted oversight of the security services has failed spectacularly, as underlined last week by the feeble public performance of the ISC? When will the Government at last join the global debate about limiting state surveillance of its innocent citizens?
Baroness Warsi
The noble Lord makes an important point but I assure him that secret does not mean unaccountable. We have a system where any intrusion of the sort to which he refers has to be necessary, proportionate and carefully targeted. We have a number of oversight mechanisms, including political and judicial, the commissioners and of course Parliament through the Intelligence and Security Committee.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, when Malcolm Rifkind was recently interviewed on television, he seemed to suggest that the ISC, which he chairs, knew of Tempora but not by that name. If it did, would one not have expected it to have perhaps recommended a tightening up and clarification of the law?
Baroness Warsi
I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate that these are not matters into which I can go in any detail at the Dispatch Box. I cannot go into any detail of what the Intelligence and Security Committee was or was not aware of. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on how the noble Lord interpreted the comments made by my right honourable friend Malcolm Rifkind. I hope that the House appreciates that I am incredibly frank and robust when I appear at this Dispatch Box. In fact, probably much to the annoyance of my officials, I go beyond what is normally in the brief, but this is not one of those occasions on which I can comment on these matters.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)
My Lords, my noble friend mentioned how important accountability is but there is a very unfortunate issue here: Menwith Hill is Little America, albeit that it is in the north of England. Ever since 1994, Parliament has been asking for, but never receiving, any information about what goes on at Menwith Hill. I appreciate that there have been several visits by the ISC, although I gather that they were very uninformative. How can my noble friend imagine that that situation will become more accountable when that place is accountable only to the United States Government?
Baroness Warsi
I go back to what I said at the outset. Accountability in relation to these sensitive matters takes a number of different formats. We have laws in this country which are completely compliant with the Human Rights Act and which set out the parameters and the remit of the intelligence services. Some of the highest politicians in this land—the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary—have to sign off on each and every warrant presented before them. We have parliamentary accountability in the form of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Again, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on what its views were after its visits. We also have the tribunal, where individual cases can be presented.
Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that GCHQ was candid to the Joint Committee on the Draft Communications Data Bill about the unclassified aspects of what it can and cannot do in collecting communications metadata, and candid with the Intelligence and Security Committee about the classified aspects of it?
Baroness Warsi
The noble Lord makes an important point. The Intelligence and Security Committee conducted a thorough review of the Draft Communications Data Bill. This was done at the same time as a review by the Joint Committee. It is right that it is the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee, rather than other parliamentary committees, to look at sensitive information.
Lord Richard (Lab)
My Lords, of course the Minister cannot go into details on these very sensitive matters. We all accept that. However, for the life of me, I do not see why she cannot answer a straightforward Question about which Minister authorised the project and why the existence of the project was not disclosed to the Joint Committee on the Draft Communications Data Bill. These are not sensitive issues. They are pure matters of fact, surely capable of being answered.
Baroness Warsi
It is interesting that the noble Lord interprets it in that way but I think he would also accept that it would be inappropriate for me to comment on intelligence matters, which includes any comments on the project.
Lord Soley (Lab)
Will the Minister take back what is troubling so many of us, which is that there has not been an acknowledgment yet by the Government of the need for a major discussion about the way we exercise oversight? It is not just the issue of accountability; it is also because of the almost terrifying fact that something like 60,000 files were available to some 800,000 people. This is supposed to be secret, even top secret. It is a nonsense and dangerous from that point of view, as well as the accountability. Please can she tell her colleagues in government that we need a full discussion on the accountability and the way we are doing it, because at the moment it is not working.
Baroness Warsi
I assure the noble Lord that these discussions are taking place, although not necessarily in the format he would like. Indeed, only this morning I had a round table with a number of NGOs and human rights activists who work in the area of freedom of expression on the internet and how that overplays with these kinds of allegations. These conversations are ongoing, and part of the appearance of the three intelligence chiefs at the Intelligence and Security Committee meeting was to do with that. I think the noble Lord would also accept that this is about perception —that leaks and the kind of information we have seen create a sense in the mind of the public that something is not quite right. It is wrong therefore for us to in any way play up to that by starting to comment on individual intelligence matters.
Lord Sharkey (LD)
My Lords, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act is plainly inadequate to deal with the situation caused by the advances in interception technology. Does the Minister accept that there is now an urgent need for full and proper post-legislative scrutiny of RIPA?
Baroness Warsi
I probably should just refer the noble Lord to the 2012 annual report of the Interception of Communications Commissioner, which was published on 18 July this year. In it he said that RIPA had weathered well and the system of oversight it laid down has been, he believes, effective.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that we all agree that GCHQ and the intelligence and security services do very important work to protect us from many threats but that effective democratic oversight is absolutely vital? With no disrespect to my noble friend Lord Lothian—I call him my noble friend—or indeed the noble Lord, Lord Butler, recent events have shown that the Intelligence and Security Committee, as currently constituted, is not really effective. Can the Minister give us some assurance that, in the new structure of the Intelligence and Security Committee that we are considering, we will have a robust membership accountable to both Houses of Parliament?
Baroness Warsi
The noble Lord will be aware that the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee has been up for discussion. I will ensure that his views are fed into that.
Gibraltar and Spain
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, I am afraid that you have the McNally and Warsi show today.
We welcome the fact that the Commission has put Spain on notice and has made recommendations to the Spanish Government to improve the functioning of the border, which, if implemented, will reduce delays. We have published the Commission’s letter to the UK and Gibraltar and we encourage Spain to do likewise. Chief Minister Picardo has welcomed this and has confirmed that Gibraltar will act on the Commission’s recommendations.
Lord Luce (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply and to the Prime Minister for his strong support for the Gibraltarians. Will the Minister accept that, having visited Gibraltar at the invitation of the Gibraltar Government this month, and as a former governor, I can confirm without any doubt that border delays by Spanish authorities in the past few months have been not only disproportionate but a deliberate abuse of human rights and freedom of movement on a scale that would be totally unacceptable in any other part of the European Union and in which local Spaniards as well as Gibraltarians are suffering?
Will the Minister also accept that an average of five Spanish incursions a day into British-Gibraltar territorial waters could at any moment lead to a serious incident? Therefore, will the Government now demonstrate by deeds and not just words that we will exercise our responsibilities to Gibraltarians against this Franco-ist style intimidation by taking appropriate legal action now, by ensuring the Commission’s recommendations on broader traffic are implemented speedily by Spain, and by giving the new governor and commander-in-chief adequate resources to uphold British sovereignty?
Baroness Warsi
I thank the noble Lord for that further question. Of course, he comes to these matters with great expertise and experience from his involvement with Gibraltar. We are not surprised at the Commission’s conclusions in relation to border issues there. Of course, the border operated more smoothly than normal when the Commission was visiting. But I agree with the noble Lord that there are huge challenges and there continue to be huge delays at the border. We remain confident that Spain has acted, and continues to act, unlawfully.
I hear what the noble Lord says about action, but although all our options are on the table, we feel at this stage that it is best to pursue this matter through diplomatic means. It was for that reason that, after a further lengthy incursion, the ambassador was summoned to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office yesterday where we made our views clear to him.
Baroness Hooper (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the fact that the date and time of the European Commission’s visit to Gibraltar was advertised in advance means that it was not exactly the sort of spot check that could have revealed some of the worst practices that were carried out during the summer months and which affected the people of Gibraltar, Spanish workers and tourists alike? Have the Government queried that method of procedure with the Commission?
Baroness Warsi
My noble friend makes an important point. That is why I said that we were not surprised that when the Commission visited things were much better than normal. It was not just a question of delays and inconvenience; it was concerning in terms of delays to ambulances, for example. It was therefore a real threat to individuals’ lives.
We are heartened to hear that the Commission intends to return. It may well be that a return without a lot of notice may be the right way forward.
Lord Howe of Aberavon (Con)
My Lords, it is good to be reminded that Britain played a significant part some years ago in helping to secure for Spain membership of both NATO and the European Community. When that was taking place, I was able, with the assistance of my opposite Spanish number, Fernando Moran, to secure a foundational solution to the long-existing Gibraltar dispute. There was a signature on agreement for the reopening of Spain’s land border with the colony, which had been closed as long ago as 1969 by General Franco.
Those agreements laid the way for a proper solution of the sovereignty of the colony. At that time, Anglo-Spanish relations were greatly enhanced by that understanding. By 1988, each of the two monarchs was able to make a state visit to each other’s country, and Margaret Thatcher herself paid a successful visit to Madrid. With all of that sensible conduct of removing the historic obstacle, is it not now time for the Spaniards to be reminded of their undertaking?
Baroness Warsi
My noble and learned friend makes an incredibly important point. He is right—there have been long periods of good co-operation and real progress on this issue. Indeed, until 2011 the trilateral process—the forum for dialogue between the UK and Spain, with Gibraltar as an equal partner—worked incredibly well. It is sad that, after the election of the Spanish Government in December 2011, Spain withdrew from that process. We have offered ad hoc talks as a way of moving this matter forward but eventually we would like to see a return to that trilateral process.
Lord Triesman (Lab)
My Lords, the events of the last couple of weeks—the fishing boat incursions, the border restrictions and the events yesterday with the Spanish naval vessels—demand of all sides of the House that we are very clear that the rights to their choice about nationality rest with the people of Gibraltar. That should be said, and said clearly.
I wonder if there is a view in the Government about whether the EU—of which, after all, both we and Spain are members—could help create some mutual modus operandi which would be beneficial to Gibraltarians while recognising their rights to their own nationality as they seek it. These diplomatic efforts need a place of focus. We can surely provide it.
Baroness Warsi
I hear what the noble Lord says. We have made this offer of ad hoc talks, which we think is probably the first stage where these discussions could take place. We are not entirely convinced that for some of the areas where the EU feels that it has competences where Gibraltar is concerned, it does indeed have those competences. As I said earlier, it would be right to return to the trilateral process where Gibraltar was an equal party to those discussions.
Start-up Loans
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Popat (Con)
With the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in the other place today by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
“Across this House, since the great recession of 2008, concern has been repeatedly raised about access to finance, particularly for the smallest companies. The contraction in support for small and medium-sized business lending following the financial crisis led to a sharp drop in the growth of lending to and support for small businesses to finance growth.
All Members will recognise the story of the constraints facing aspiring entrepreneurs when it comes to accessing finance. These problems were a consequence of an overreliance on bank finance compared to international competitors, a hollowing out of business lending units in the big banks, too much concentration in our banking system, followed by the biggest banking bust ever faced in this country and the biggest bank failure in the world in 2008.
A calamity of this scale cannot be addressed by a single policy, so we have engaged since 2010 on a comprehensive programme of bank reform: splitting retail from investment banking; requiring greater capital; introducing a tax on leverage; introducing much stronger requirements to check that the people running banks are fit and proper persons, so we do not get the likes of Fred Goodwin and Reverend Flowers sitting atop our banks in the future; and we are introducing criminal charges for those who behave negligently in charge of big banks.
Those changes are part of a wider drive to change the culture of banking so that our banks serve the economy, rather than the other way around, but these reforms alone are not enough. To help companies access finance, we have introduced the first British business bank, have doubled the seed enterprise investment scheme and are expanding the enterprise finance guarantee schemes. Last year, we introduced start-up loans of up to £25,000 per founder, although more typically about £6,000, to help budding entrepreneurs access the seed capital to make their idea a reality.
Britain has for too long been a home of great ideas that are then commercialised and developed elsewhere. We want British business men and women to take brilliant British ideas and turn them into blossoming British businesses. The first start-up loan was made in September 2012, and from the start, growth exceeded expectations. More than a third of loans go to BME entrepreneurs, and more than a third to people previously unemployed.
In June this year, the Prime Minister announced that start-up loans would no longer be restricted to young people, so the age cap has been removed altogether. We are now seeing strong growth in the number of people over the age of 30 being helped to realise their full entrepreneurial potential with the mentoring and financial support of the programme. In August, we introduced specialised support to finance ex-military service personnel who want to start their own business within the start-up loans scheme.
I am pleased to announce that today we have made the 10,000th start-up loan. Mr Allen Martin, a Royal Navy engineer from Truro, is the 10,000th loan recipient of the programme. Allen joined the Royal Navy in 1991 as an engineer and mechanic. Working with helicopters, search and rescue, and commando forces, he served for 22 years in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. Having been medically discharged, Allen knew that he wanted to start his own business, so he applied for a start-up loan and founded Eclipse Property Cornwall. It will manage properties on behalf of landlords, renting them out and offering part or full management. Allen Martin has benefited from both the extension of start-up loans to all ages and the specialised support for our ex-service personnel.
Given the success of this targeted approach within the full age range, we are now going even further. I can tell the House that we are committing a total of £151 million to the scheme this year and next, with a goal of backing 30,000 new businesses by 2015. From 1 January, the Start Up Loans Company will specifically target priority groups: entrepreneurs over 50, NEETs and new mothers ready to return to the workplace, seeking the ability to manage their own time and commitments on their own terms.
Age UK estimates that one in five of those over 50 now work for themselves—a growing trend that accounts for the fact that 70% of the businesses that they start will last more than five years, compared with 28% of those started by young entrepreneurs. With the added support of mentors who understand modern media and marketing, new retail platforms and communications channels, start-up loans can help bring even more of those in that age group success. That is why I am tasking them to find the specialist providers who will make start-up loans a perfect fit for the older entrepreneur.
For NEETs, I know that Members across the House have seen just how valuable and popular these loans are proving in tackling youth unemployment. Working with the new enterprise allowance, start-up loans will now give specialist support to those who have been away from the workplace for a long time, who need strong and committed mentors with an understanding of what it is to start from a very low base. The Prince’s Trust has already demonstrated just how effective this approach can be, and much more can be done to create a targeted offer that creates the right conditions for those businesses to survive and thrive within the safe environment of start-up loans.
Finally, new mothers are also turning increasingly to self-employment. According to Mumpreneurs UK, self-employment for women is rising at three times the rate for men. So far, 37% of start-up loans have gone to women, and we want to do more to increase this. We will introduce specialised support for mothers seeking to start their businesses, juggling childcare and seeking flexible ways to turn business ideas into reality.
With a record business creation of 400,000 new businesses each year, record jobs, and a record 4.9 million companies in the UK, Britain is once again becoming an entrepreneurial beacon of the world. Our future prosperity rests on the entrepreneurial aspirations of the British people. This Government will not rest in our drive to support those who want to work hard and get on”.
My Lords, I commend the Statement to the House.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place. I would also like to place on record the thanks of the House for the work that has been done by James Caan and the Start Up Loans Company to support people in setting up their businesses. It would be good also to record our congratulations to Allen Martin, the 10,000th recipient of start-up loans. Mr Allen is one of the first ex-servicemen to benefit from the Start Up Loans Company and we wish him well with his new venture.
Small businesses are the lifeblood of our economy. The £50 million that has been lent to 10,000 new entrepreneurs is an important token of that enterprise spirit that we know runs deep in this country. However, as we examine the performance of start-up loans in the context of the broader picture for the economy and small businesses, and the support available to start up, we agree with Mr Caan that there is still much work to be done. A key lesson from the start-up loans programme in so far as we have the results is that access to finance schemes is only as good as the infrastructure that supports them, and relies on a wider system of business support, mentoring and signposting. This is the very fabric of support now lacking in so many parts of our country in the absence of Business Link, after the abolition of the RDAs and with the deliberate impoverishing of local government, which had a good record on this issue under the previous Government.
This is borne out by the statistics that we are welcoming today. In every recession, there has been an increase in business start-ups. People faced with a flat job market and low demand for their skills will often look to create their own job by setting up a business. Desperation is not a bad motive for launching a firm, but does the Minister agree that where business support networks are strongest, as they are in London, it is noticeable that that is where there have been far and away the most loans to date? The statistics on the start-up loans scheme that the Government have released today suggest that some regions are missing out. Some 15% of the population live in London while 36% of the loans issued have been in London, and almost half in London and the south-east. Only 5% of the start-up loans have been issued in the north-east and 5% per cent in the south-west.
Can the Minister explain to your Lordships’ House why the scheme has not been delivered in a more consistent way across the country? What will he do to boost business support in the areas that are receiving the least of the start-up loans money? Will he comment on the fact that the successful Business Link scheme has not been replaced by anything meaningful to provide support not just for start-ups but for developing small firms around the country?
Is the Minister aware that James Caan is on record as saying that the support and mentoring available under the scheme was a more important part of the success of the programme than the loan itself? While providing finance to start-ups is important, mentoring also plays a crucial role in helping businesses get off the ground. Does the Minister share my concern that just 17% of those contacting the Government’s new mentoring portal did so in order to find a mentor? Can he do more in this area?
Start-up businesses need to have affordable premises. Given that many businesses now pay more in business rates than on their rent and that business rates have gone up by £1,500 on average in this Parliament, will the Minister say whether the Government will back Labour’s plans to cut and freeze business rates to help start-ups and save 1.5 million businesses across the country an average of £450? A cost that places burdens on new start-ups is rising energy costs. Under Labour’s energy price freeze, start-ups and other businesses will save over £5,000. Why do the Government refuse to take action to help reduce the crippling costs that start-up businesses face?
Alongside the start-up loans scheme, the Government announced the start-up spaces scheme to great fanfare almost two years ago. We were told then that over 300 government offices would be available for start-up businesses to use as premises, but to date just one has opened. Can the Minister explain why the scheme has not been delivered? Is it because the Government have not kept their promise to make the spaces available to start-ups? According to the statistics released by the Government today, almost two-thirds of start-up loans have gone to men. Given the failings that we have seen under this Government with the Aspire Fund that was set up to help women entrepreneurs and that made only five investments in 2011-12 compared to 127 in 2009-10, what steps are Ministers taking to ensure that there is more support available to women entrepreneurs?
Finally, providing help and support for start-ups is important, but thousands more small businesses across the country are struggling to get the finance that they need after the failure of the Government’s Project Merlin, credit easing and funding for lending schemes. According to the Bank of England, net funding to businesses has fallen by £14 billion in the past 12 months. While the £50 million that has been provided through the Start Up Loans scheme is welcome, it is but a drop in the ocean compared with the Government’s failure to get banks lending.
I failed to get an answer to the question I put to the Minister yesterday, so I encourage him to answer it now. It was about the British Business Bank, not RBS. My main point was that last week we learnt that the bank, announced in September 2012, had finally made its first investment of £45 million to two financial institutions: Praesidian Capital Europe and BMS Finance. I asked the Minister: when we will see funding flowing to the small and medium-sized businesses that need it, and when do the Government expect the British Business Bank to reach its target of £10 billion?
Lord Popat
My Lords, the noble Lord asked about lending 37% or 40% to London and not throughout the whole region. A large number of SMEs are based down south and up north, but it is for the whole region. To address this issue, we started a marketing campaign at the beginning of this month to make people aware of the different schemes available under the guarantee scheme. LEPs are now playing an important role in the regions in helping SMEs and making them aware of the different schemes available.
With regard to the business rate, it is currently frozen until April 2014 and the noble Lord must wait for the Autumn Statement in two weeks’ time to hear what the Chancellor has to say about it. We accept that it is a major issue for a large number of SMEs. Energy costs are being looked into by the Government at the moment. The British Business Bank has started. It consolidates a number of schemes within the Government. It will play a major role in lending new money. So far within those schemes we have private sector money and government money to the tune of £2.4 billion. The Government have injected a further £1 billion to do more lending to SMEs. The British Business Bank will play a vital role in helping SMEs and making businesses aware of the different schemes available within the Government. I hope I have covered all the questions asked by the noble Lord. If I have not, I will be very happy to write to him.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, I remind the House of the benefit of short questions to the Minister in order that he can answer as many as possible.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
My Lords, the shortfall in business investment is the biggest problem facing the economic recovery. I welcome this announcement of increased support for small business loans but recognise that it is one of many channels required to stimulate investment in small business. I have three questions. Are the Government sure that enough is being done to mentor, support and help networking for business people to take full advantage of these schemes and are they doing their best to make these schemes as simple as possible? Are technical and further education colleges being made the focus for small business development and for courses on how these loans can be used and how specific small businesses can take advantage of them? As well as technical and further education colleges, universities should be involved in this as well. Are the banks, particularly the state-regulated banks, being pressurised to redevelop their local and regional systems and get back to their historic original role of helping local businesses?
Lord Popat
My Lords, on business investment, I am pleased to say that there is a return of consumer and business confidence in the economy. Bank lending to businesses is going up. In fact we had a large increase in gross domestic lending to businesses in the past 12 months, a lot more than we had in the early part of 2012. Although net lending has dropped compared with the peak of 2008, it has just started to increase, so there is some business confidence and that will help business investment, which will help our growth. As I mentioned yesterday, our growth forecast has gone up from 0.6% to 1.4%, which is good news. With regard to bank lending, we have a large number of schemes. Once again, we are marketing very strongly awareness of these schemes, which will enable a number of businesses to borrow money and grow further.
Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
My Lords, I speak as someone who started a business with exactly the same sum of money as Mr Martin raised so I am aware of the great difficulty in raising money for start-ups. To have a scheme such as this, which facilitates a new business, is really encouraging. I understand that 30 new businesses a day are being created by this scheme. Does my noble friend agree that not only is this wonderful for new businesses but the success of the business growth fund means that, as these businesses flourish, it is not just relief from debt and loans but equity injection which are being provided to enable these businesses to flourish and succeed?
Lord Popat
My Lords, it is pleasure to answer my noble friend’s question. He brings with him a wealth of experience both in business and in corporate finance. The business growth fund is a welcome initiative, with five or six clearing banks putting together some £2.5 billion to lend money to new and growing businesses. I imagine that it will do a very good job for special and medium-sized businesses, which can borrow money on the basis of venture capital. Therefore, we welcome the initiative. The good news is that not a penny of taxpayers’ money is involved in the growth fund.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, perhaps I may bring the Minister back to the third point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. Is it not the case that, the way that banks have been operating in recent years, the pendulum has swung from golf course lending to computer program lending and there is no balance between the two? Surely there has to be a regional and more local focus to understand the persons and the nature of the business for which funding is being sought. Is it not the case that the standard approach of banks of using the same computer system, whichever bank you go to, has to be broken up? The banks should focus more on localised issues, including pension funds such as local government officers’ superannuation funds. They should be encouraged to use locally collected money to benefit local business.
Lord Popat
The noble Lord makes a very important point. When I ran an SME I had easy access to my branch manager. To borrow money was not that difficult and the turnaround of applications was very quick. I agree with the noble Lord that we need to focus at regional as well as at local level. What is now happening is that a large number of clearing banks have a central office which does underwriting through computers. I am sure that servicing the customer at a local level will become more important. The good news is that we have brought competition into the banking world. Aldermore, Metro Bank and Cambridge & Counties all have branch managers, so a large number of SMEs can deal directly with the branch manager rather than having an application going to the central level. With the demand for money and banks hungry to lend more, I am sure that, given time, banks will surely set up a branch manager network. That was a successful model in the 1970s and 1980s.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the start-up loans scheme. It is an excellent initiative and I am delighted that the Minister, a fellow entrepreneur himself, is answering these questions from personal knowledge. I started a business from scratch. I know how difficult it was to raise those first few thousand pounds. To get my first overdraft of £7,500 was amazing. I see that the sums involve an average of £6,000. The average start-up loan is up to £25,000. I hope that the Government will increase that figure because the bigger it is, the better the start-up. I notice that the Prince’s Trust is one of the delivery partners. Can the Minister confirm what the effect of this scheme has been on the Prince’s Trust, which has done excellent work in this area over the years? Is it actually giving out more money as a result of start-up funds in the scheme or less? Secondly, what are the Government doing to help the people who get these loans go on to get the further funding that they need? This is only the start. The Government’s small firms loan guarantee scheme is excellent. How many of these start-up loan recipients have gone on to government-guaranteed schemes, which are absolutely essential? Finally, are the Government encouraging this group of entrepreneurs to network in the future, creating environments and events that these people can attend so that they become a community and the Government can identify the high-growth companies which will be creating the jobs that will power this economy ahead?
Lord Popat
My Lords, we will remove the age limit. The limit on lending is £25,000 for a period of five years, at a 6% interest rate. We will look at this over a period of time once we have looked at the success of the scheme. The scheme is proving to be successful. There are a few examples, which I have in my folder here, of people who have traded very successfully, done well and gone to the clearing banks to borrow more money to make sure that their businesses grow. The people who participate in the Prince’s Trust are actively encouraged and are quite often mentored free of charge to help them set up their own businesses.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord expressed a hope that banks may be persuaded to return to their former glory, when they operated at local level and were very much available for local businesses. Will he tell us what the Government intend to do to make that a reality? The reality is that in many areas the banks have loads of money to shell out. I recently purchased a new kitchen. At the end of the exercise, after having decided how much I was going to spend, I was asked, “But aren’t you going to take the interest-free loan?”. I had no intention of taking the interest-free loan for 12 months, but it was offered to me, so I took it. Therefore, Barclays has stumped up all the cash, which has immediately gone to the German manufacturer that produced the kitchen. There had been no question at all about any difficulty in paying. Interest-free loans are being offered all over the place. Perhaps we should have a look at what is happening with interest-free loans, where the money that comes through interest-free loans goes, who the beneficiaries are, and why the banks are not lending it to our SMEs and to our real start-up people, who we need.
Lord Popat
My Lords, it is not under the Government’s control to insist that banks have branch networks or branch managers at branches throughout the country. However, given time, with competition being put in place, this will happen—they will have no choice. If they really want to lend money and understand the local business and local businessmen, they will have to have a local branch network. On interest-free loans, I do not have information in my briefing but I will be very happy to write to the noble Lord on where that money comes from and how someone is able to give interest-free loans. Perhaps the people who sold those goods to the noble Lord are offering the loan themselves from the profit they made from the goods that were sold. However, I will certainly write to the noble Lord.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)
My Lords, I applaud these steps that are being taken to encourage new businesses. I hope that some of them might go into making kitchens so that the noble Lord opposite might be able to buy British in the future. However, other noble Lords have remarked that it is important that companies should have access to advice as well as to money. Does the Minister agree that the Government inherited so many different advice schemes that the forest is impenetrable and that no entrepreneur has time to wade through it? Surely the sensible thing to do is what I believe the Minister is doing, which is first of all to simplify the advice schemes that are available.
Lord Popat
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. Yes, we inherited a large number of different schemes and advice schemes from the previous Government. We have looked at them and have come up with new ones as well. However, these schemes are all being consolidated under the new British Business Bank. I hope that it will be able to deliver good advice to its customers.
Baroness Cohen of Pimlico (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that while loans are quite a good way to start a business, what you really need is some equity? With all the money borrowed it is hard work starting a business, and very few of us do that. This is an area where I know he agrees with me. Would he like to describe what steps we are taking to encourage equity investment in some of these small start-up businesses? We used to have something called 3i, which was a very potent and useful source for small businesses, and there are various government schemes. However, they have more or less lost themselves. When we both sat on the committee on small businesses and exporting we discovered that we are unique in Europe in that so many of our small businesses—indeed, businesses of any size—are financed by bank lending. Businesses in most other countries are financed much more largely by equity investment. Can the Minister describe what, if anything, is being done to encourage this?
Lord Popat
My Lords, equity finance becomes very attractive and desirable to a large number of medium-sized businesses, but equally to small businesses that want to grow. We have a number of government schemes on equity finance but we also have a new set-up called equity growth funding run by HSBC and four other clearing banks. That is really helping. In fact, they had their first case up north under that scheme. That £2.5 billion available to lend on an equity basis will make a huge difference to a number of SMEs, but we have government- backed schemes as well on equity finance.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the House do again resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, may I raise a point about the further consideration of the Bill today? At 6.03 pm yesterday, we received quite a lengthy letter from the Minister with amendments that I am told are to be debated today. Is it appropriate to receive amendments at such late notice for debate the following day?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, as with the Opposition, we have also seen all the amendments and have been working through them. They have been tabled and agreed for debate; that is the programme that is scheduled for today. I know that the noble Baroness appreciates the challenges of the number of amendments we have on this Bill, and we wish to make progress.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am sorry. I understand the need to make progress. The Minister will know from the amendments we have tabled and our contributions to this debate that we agree with him in seeking to make progress. I am, however, questioning whether it is right to table amendments and notify some Members of your Lordships’ House—not all—at 6.03 pm for debate on the following day. That seems completely inappropriate. As we are speaking, I am trying to go through all the amendments to ensure that we have a response and can fully consider them. This House prides itself on scrutiny, but this does not leave us the opportunity to scrutinise adequately these amendments tabled by the Government.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, I say to the noble Baroness that anyone who has been in the previous days of this Committee would not doubt for a moment that the House has been very careful in its scrutiny of the Bill. That is reflected in where we currently are in the progress of the Bill. As I said, these amendments have been tabled and we, as the Government, have looked at them. We look forward to the debate and the scrutiny that will take place of them.
Baroness Hamwee
(c) the respondent is aged 18 or over”
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 21G. The first of these amendments takes us to Clause 12, which is the clause giving power to exclude a person from his home in the case of violence or the risk of harm. This power can be included in an IPNA—in the injunction—if two conditions are fulfilled. The first is that the anti-social behaviour giving rise to the application for the IPNA amounts to violence or the threat of violence and the second is that there is a significant risk of harm from the respondent. My first amendment provides for a third condition, namely that the respondent is aged 18 or over. It seems to me a very severe sanction to exclude anyone from his home. I accept that this power is to be in response to a “significant risk” or behaviour, but if it is so significant as to justify such an action, are there not other courses of action that might be open to be taken? It is not required by the statute to link any of these provisions with a course of treatment or rehabilitation, as one would hope to see in many cases, and particularly that of young people.
The Bill is quite properly focused on the victim; we see that not just in the drafting of the Bill but on almost every page of the draft guidance, with which your Lordships have been provided. But I suggest to the Government that while excluding somebody from his home may mean the immediate protection of the victim, the longer-term protection must be rooted in addressing the victim’s long-term behaviour. Of course, excluding somebody from his home does not mean that he will not meet the victim somewhere else. So I am particularly concerned about this in the case of young people. I wonder, too, what the local authority response would be. Would it have obligations if a person under 18 found himself suddenly homeless?
In the Commons, the Minister referred to the guidance, making it clear that,
“the exclusion power will be used only rarely, but that the court will pay special attention to whether it is proportionate”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/10/13; col. 543.]
That applied especially to the respondent’s Article 8 rights. It is one thing to issue guidance to local authorities—and I do not, of course, speak for the judiciary—but it is another matter to issue guidance to the courts. I have very considerable doubts as to whether it is right as a response to an IPNA, in the absence of something else justifying this, to allow this at all. I am hoping that there must be some explanation as to whether this cannot be done through any other relevant measure.
Amendment 21G is also about under-18s. I accept that suggesting that there may not be an injunction unless the police have talked to the respondent and his parents or guardian to discuss the behaviour and the respondent has been given an,
“opportunity to enter into an agreement as to future good behaviour”,
sounds a bit “Dixon of Dock Green”—perhaps a bit “Evening, all”. But it comes not from that but from provisions in the Republic of Ireland, which have been drawn to my attention—and from a concern previously expressed by the Home Affairs Select Committee in the Commons, whose report recommended that the legislation should not permit IPNAs to be used against young people unless supportive and informal interventions have failed. I can hear the Minister saying “guidance” to that.
In the Republic of Ireland, there is similar legislation but the courts are permitted to impose a behaviour order, which is their version of the IPNA and ASBO, against children aged 12 to 18 only after a senior police officer has held a meeting with the child and the parents or guardian, and when the child has been warned about behaviour and given the opportunity to sign a good behaviour contract—and, of course, to abide by it. I understand that in the past five years in Ireland the authorities have issued more than 2,000 behaviour warnings and 15 good behaviour contracts but only three behaviour orders to those under 18. I suggest that that is a successful way in which to go about the matter. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for these amendments, which give me an opportunity to explain more fully how those responsible for young people and young offenders can work together. In Amendment 21D, my noble friend is right to highlight the impact that something like exclusion from the family home could have on a young person. It is worth reiterating here that the power to exclude is available only when a much higher test of violence or significant harm to others is met. As such, it is a power that is rarely used in the context of the current anti-social behaviour injunction and we expect that it will rarely be used with the new injunction. This is especially true with young people. There are a number of examples where young adults have been excluded from a family home because of the reign of terror they have created. However, I sympathise with the point my noble friend raises and I would like to consider it further, without commitment, ahead of Report. In doing so, I would want to consult with front-line professionals on this point.
Clearly, if the provision remained as it is and the court were to decide to exclude someone under the age of 18 from the family home, it would also have to consider what additional support, such as accommodation, would be necessary to make it possible. There would also be a duty on local authorities to consider what support they are obliged to offer to the young person in such circumstances. However, there may be situations where, for the benefit of victims, alternative accommodation —with other family members for instance—could be in both the young person’s interest and that of the community. I should add that there may be cases where a 17 year-old respondent lives alone and where exclusion may be an appropriate response to his or her threatening behaviour.
The local youth offending teams will also have a role in the process of applying for an injunction against a young person and will provide a balanced and considered input early on, so I am not persuaded that simply preventing exclusion in all cases where the respondent is under 18 is necessarily the right answer. That said, if my noble friend is content to withdraw this amendment, I will return to the subject on Report after further consideration.
Amendment 21G seeks to put in the Bill a requirement for agencies to use informal approaches against under-18s before resorting to more formal measures to stop or prevent their anti-social behaviour. Early and informal approaches can be successful in stopping anti-social behaviour committed by the majority of perpetrators, including young people. I agree that when dealing with young people, informal interventions should be considered first in most cases as they can help stop bad behaviour before it escalates. Our draft guidance reminds professionals of the importance of considering informal measures in the first instance. Informal approaches could include acceptable behaviour contracts or, as they are sometimes called, acceptable behaviour agreements. These contracts can be an effective way of dealing with anti-social individuals, especially where there are a number of problem behaviours. They can also be very effective at dealing with young people early, to nip problem behaviour in the bud before it becomes more serious.
However, more formal measures must be available in the minority of cases where informal interventions are not appropriate. I am reluctant to restrict professionals in the way the amendment suggests because they need to have the flexibility to respond in all situations. There are, however, safeguards to ensure that injunctions are used appropriately. Before an application against an under-18 is made, the applicant must consult with the local youth offending team. This will ensure that the youth offending team is involved at the earliest stage in the process. They can give their expert views on whether an informal intervention would be more effective in dealing with the anti-social behaviour, rather than the more formal power in the form of an injunction.
In addition, before an application for an IPNA against those aged under 18 is made to the court, the applicant must,
“inform any other body or individual that the applicant thinks appropriate of the application”.
We would of course expect this to include the young person’s parents or guardians. As I have said, we would expect that in most cases professionals will look to informal measures first, but these provisions act as a safeguard to ensure that they do not automatically move to seeking an injunction, and that the youth offending team is involved in finding a solution to the young person’s behaviour.
I hope that I have explained how the Bill will ensure that the needs of a young person will be assessed when agencies are considering applying for an IPNA against that young person. I hope, too, that my noble friend understands why I do not think it would be necessary to put provision for good behaviour warnings in the Bill. I hope that she will withdraw her amendment on the understanding that I will consider the matters she raised.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
Perhaps I may briefly take the Minister back to Amendment 21D. He made a number of points to explain how in practice this measure will be dealt with in the case of people under the age of 18. I was looking at the draft guidance as he was speaking and some of the points that he made do not appear there. Certainly, the point is made that the power of exclusion would not be used often, as is the point about the high threshold and so on. However, for example, the Minister mentioned the function of the youth offending team but that is not mentioned at pages 25 and 26 in this chapter of the guidance. I can see a value in the continuing duty of the youth offending team when dealing with young people who are excluded from their home, but it would be helpful if that were to be put in the draft guidance. Will the Minister undertake to look at the guidance as well as the drafting of the Bill when dealing with the point that the noble Baroness raised?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We have already committed to looking at the draft guidance in the light of our debates. More to the point, it is explicit in the Bill that the youth offending team is involved.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, we, too, will look at the guidance in the light of the debates. I say that as a promise rather than a threat—and I hope it is interpreted in that way.
My first amendment—as are so many amendments at this stage—is to some extent probing. I thought that the Minister made my case rather better than I did. I am glad that he will be consulting. I would not expect him to move forward on this without talking to the front-line professionals. I make just one comment on what he said: accommodation with other family members is unlikely to be available unless it was there without the need for an order. I am just thinking about the way that family dynamics work. As regards both amendments but particularly the second, I, too, will look at the guidance again and hope to provide some useful input to ensure that what the Minister describes as a longstop is a very long longstop. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, we have tabled amendments 21E and 21F to seek to clarify the effect of changes made to Clause 12 on Report in the House of Commons. As I understand it, the effect of those changes is that the ability to exclude a person who is the subject of an injunction under Clause 1 from the place where he or she normally lives in cases of violence or risk of harm can now apply across all tenures, including owner-occupiers, and not just the social housing sector, as I think was originally proposed. Will the Minister confirm whether that is now the case?
If Clause 12 now applies across all tenures equally, what powers are now given under Clause 13 that apply only to someone with a tenancy agreement but do not apply to someone normally living in owner-occupied property who is also the subject of an injunction under Clause 1? One would have assumed that all tenures were now being treated equally but I take it that Clause 13, by its very wording, does not apply to a person in owner -occupied property. If there is still a difference in the powers available under Clauses 12 and 13, depending on the form of tenure, will the Minster say what those differences are and why they are necessary? Will he also say whether Clause 13 applies to the private rented housing sector or to just the social housing sector? Presumably the private rented housing sector is now covered by the changes made to Clause 12, so if a private sector housing tenant is not covered by Clause 13, in which ways does it mean that someone in social housing accommodation is being treated differently from someone who is a private sector housing tenant and who is also the subject of an injunction under Clause 1?
Amendment 21F would give local authorities extra flexibility in tackling anti-social behaviour in the private rented housing sector when private landlords refuse or are unwilling to act. It would be helpful to have the Minister’s comments.
Finally, under Clause 12, the injunction may exclude the respondent from the place where he or she normally lives. Under Clause 13, the tenancy injunction may include a provision prohibiting the person against whom it is granted from entering or being in any premises or any area specified in the injunction. What is the reason for the difference in wording apparently based on form of tenure?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I totally understand the noble Lord’s concern that anti-social behaviour powers in this Bill should be, as far as possible, tenure-neutral. He is quite correct that this came up during the debate in the other place and Clause 12, which provides for exclusion, is now tenure-neutral following amendments made on Report in the Commons. Of course, it is of no consequence to the victims of such behaviour that the perpetrator is a tenant of social housing, in the private rented sector, or is indeed an owner-occupier. What matters is that action can be taken.
Clause 13 makes special provision for tenancy injunctions so as to preserve the powers in housing legislation. For the most part, the housing injunction can be used in the same way as an injunction to prevent nuisance and annoyance. However, it makes the express provision for a tenancy injunction to be made in some circumstances where the tenant allows, incites or encourages anti-social behaviour by another person and this constitutes a breach of the tenancy agreement. Such behaviour could be committed by a visitor or lodger, for example. Front-line professionals have demonstrated through discussions held that they value this power and that is why we have retained it.
I assure the noble Lord that we are satisfied that Part 1 already enables the police, a housing provider or a local authority to apply for an IPNA to prevent a person allowing, inciting or encouraging someone else to engage in anti-social behaviour. It can be used in this way not only against tenants in the social and private rental sectors, which are the sectors that these amendments are concerned with, but against owner-occupiers. Given that, we do not need to extend the tenancy injunction provisions to cover a wider category of persons, as these amendments seek to do.
I also assure the noble Lord that Clause 13 applies to anyone who has a tenancy agreement with a local authority or a social landlord, so it does not cover the private rental sector.
Based on the assurances that I have given in terms of the extension and the provisions that were discussed in the other place, I hope that the noble Lord is content to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
I am still not entirely clear what the position is in the light of what the noble Lord has said. As I understood it, he seemed to be at some pains to say that the content of Clause 13 is also covered by Clause 12 because the police, or somebody making the application, would have the powers to make that application in respect of somebody in the private rented sector, or presumably even an owner-occupier, who was,
“allowing, inciting or encouraging any other person to engage or threaten to engage in anti-social behaviour”.
I think that that is what the noble Lord was seeking to tell me. That wording appears in Clause 13 in relation to tenancy injunctions but it does not appear in Clause 12, although the Minister is seeking to say that that is what Clause 12 actually means. Therefore, if owner-occupiers and the private rented sector are covered by Clause 12, why do we need Clause 13 to put in different wording for a tenancy injunction when the noble Lord is apparently seeking to say that that is already covered in Clause 12?
In my contribution, I drew attention to Clause 13(3), which says:
“The court may include in the tenancy injunction a provision prohibiting the person against whom it is granted from entering or being in … any premises specified in the injunction (including the premises where the person normally lives)”,
so it clearly covers premises other than where the person normally lives, but the subsection goes on to say that it could also apply to,
“any area specified in the injunction”.
Do the terms of Clause 13(3) apply also to owner-occupiers and the private rented housing sector or are we treating differently people in the social housing sector who may have one of these injunctions and who it is proposed should be excluded? Are the people concerned in the three different types of tenure all being treated equally or is there something different in this for the tenant of social housing accommodation? If there is no difference and it is all covered by Clause 12, why do we need a separate Clause 13?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I repeat that as far as the first clause is concerned, the intention is to be tenure-neutral. As I said, we have considered the discussions that took place on Report in the House of Commons and have made appropriate amendments. I also repeat that the specific purpose of a tenancy injunction is to capture behaviour where a tenant has breached, or it is anticipated that they will breach, their tenancy agreement by engaging, or threatening to engage, in anti-social behaviour. We have tried to cover all elements in both clauses. As I have said before, it does not matter to the victim whether the perpetrator is a tenant of social housing or in the private rented sector. What matters is that action can be taken, and Clause 12 covers that.
Lord Rosser
With great respect to the Minister, I do not think that he has explained why Clause 13 is necessary. He keeps saying that Clause 12 is tenure neutral. If it is tenure-neutral, it covers social housing tenants as well as those in the private rented sector and owner-occupiers. Therefore, why do we need Clause 13? He refers to Clause 13 relating to anti-social behaviour, but Clause 12(1)(b)(i) also refers to anti-social behaviour. It also refers, in subsection (1)(b)(ii), to,
“a significant risk of harm to other persons from the respondent”.
The Minister has not addressed another question that I asked. Clause 12 refers to,
“excluding the respondent from the place where he or she normally lives”,
but in Clause 13, which covers tenancy injunctions, a prohibition can apply to,
“any premises specified in the injunction (including the premises where the person normally lives)”.
I therefore repeat that the provision envisages that the scope can extend beyond the premises where the person lives. There is also a phrase about preventing a person,
“from entering or being in … any area specified in the injunction”.
Is the Minister saying that the terms of Clause 13(3) are also included in Clause 12? He cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that Clause 12 covers all forms of tenure and then say that he still needs Clause 13.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I can only repeat what I have already said: Clause 13 makes special provision for tenancy injunctions so as to preserve specific powers in housing legislation. In this case, it also makes an express provision for a tenancy injunction to be made in some circumstances where the tenant allows, incites or encourages anti-social behaviour by another person. This constitutes a breach of their tenancy agreement. As I said earlier, such behaviour could be committed by a visitor or a lodger. The reason for Clause 13 is that front-line professionals value this power. That is why we seek to retain it.
Lord Rosser
Why is it not equally important that the provision about,
“inciting or encouraging any other person to engage or threaten to engage in anti-social behaviour”
should apply to the private rented housing sector, and to owner-occupiers? Is the Minister saying that only somebody in social housing might incite or encourage others to engage or threaten to engage in anti-social behaviour, and that that would not apply to the private rented sector or to owner-occupiers? Of course it applies there, too. This is not tenure neutral. If it were, Clause 13 would not be needed.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, either I am failing to comprehend totally what the noble Lord is saying, or vice versa. I am listening very carefully to what he is saying, but, rather than repeating myself, I think it would be in the best interests of making progress if I wrote to him about this. I hope that he has been reassured by some of what I have said, and by the commitments and assurances given by the Government. On that basis, I again ask him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
Obviously, I accept that the Minister will, without any commitment, have another look at this and write to me—which presumably will require him to reflect on everything that has been said before his reply is signed and sent. On that basis I will withdraw the amendment. However, I put to him again this simple question: if he is arguing that Clause 12 is tenure neutral, why does he need Clause 13? I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Rosser
“( ) Within a year of this section coming into force, the Secretary of State shall review the length of time taken by consultations under this section with local youth offending teams.”
Lord Rosser
We acknowledge that there was broad support for the requirement that the youth offending team be consulted before an injunction under Clause 1 is sought against somebody under 18. However, there appears to be no timescale for the consultation with youth offending teams, and as a result there could be—not necessarily will be—delay. For that reason, the time taken for consultation with local youth offending teams should be reviewed. That is the purpose of the amendment. Surely we need to keep an eye on how long the process is taking and to check on whether there are hold-ups when the legislation comes into force.
I appreciate that the Government’s view is that the necessary consultation with the relevant youth offending team will take place with a proper sense of urgency and should not be unduly delayed by protracted consultations. A clear commitment to a review would further strengthen that position and make clear the need to carry out such consultation expeditiously. That is what those who may be victims certainly wish. In the light of the statement in the draft guidelines that the consultation requirement does not mean that the youth offending team could veto the application, will the Minister say what would constitute consultation being completed? Does the person applying for an injunction have to have received a response from the youth offending team for consultations which have been completed? If the response is that the youth offending team is not in favour of the injunction, would discussions have to continue before the terms of Clause 14(1)(a) had been met?
Would a failure by the youth offending team to respond at all within a certain timescale mean that consultation could have been deemed to have taken place? If so, what would the Minister consider a reasonable minimum period for a response? Would a failure to respond by a youth offending team within a certain time be grounds for an application without notice under Clause 5? Could the youth offending team oppose an application for an injunction under Section 1 for someone under the age of 18 in court? Will the court hearing an application for an injunction under Section 1 have to be told the outcome of the consultation with the youth offending team and the view of the youth offending team?
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I have Amendment 21J in this group. Consultation can mean a lot of things and sometimes mean different things to different people, depending on what they want it to mean. I have pretty much given up tabling amendments which add, to “consult”, “and have regard to the outcome of the consultation”, having been told quite frequently that of course that must be implicit. However, I have met times when the consulter has not recognised that.
We heard from the Minister on my previous amendments that local authority social services have a role when someone under the age of 18 is involved as the respondent or potential respondent to an IPNA. My amendment would insert a reference to,
“the local authority for the area where the respondent resides”,
meaning of course the social services part of the local authority. I am seeking consultation, without trying to define it, of the local authority as well as of the youth offending team.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and my noble friend for their amendments. This group again relates to the balance that needs to be struck in ensuring that the appropriate consultation takes place, but relates specifically to cases involving young people under the age of 18.
Amendment 21H is concerned with the duty on applicants for injunctions under Part 1 to consult with the local youth offending teams in the case of under-18s. Crucially, that consultation must take place before the application is made to the court. That is an important change to the process where young people are concerned. Therefore, youth offending teams will help to ensure that the prohibitions in the order are appropriate and understood by the young person, and that any positive requirements are tailored to meet his or her needs. As we all recognise, as do I from my time in local government, youth offending teams are an important and established part of the youth justice system. They are well used to working with young people in these sorts of circumstances.
The noble Lord raised the issue of consultation. This would be an ongoing process and I would expect the consultation with the youth offending team to take place swiftly for the benefit both of the victims and of the communities that require protection. One of our primary objectives in reforming the response to anti-social behaviour is to speed up that response and I would not expect this consultation requirement to prevent that.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of whether the Local Government Association has been consulted—sorry to use the term again—on this provision? It seems to me that the Government should have been talking to it about whether it would want a statutory role. I take his point about occasional urgency but it is always open to a local authority to say, “This is urgent. You had better get on with it”, or, at the other end of the spectrum, to say, “We have no comment”. If he is not aware of what talks underlay the provision as we see it now, perhaps he could let me know after today’s sitting.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
In direct response to that, I can say that representatives from the LGA and other organisations have attended meetings with my noble friend with regard to this Bill. I again reassure her that, as the guidelines are reviewed, I am sure that the LGA will be making representations and will be part of that process.
Lord Rosser
I certainly will withdraw my amendment but can the Minister respond to two of the questions I asked? Can the youth offending team oppose an application for an injunction under Section 1 for someone aged under 18 and can it oppose it in court? Will the court hearing an application for an injunction under Section 1 have to be told the outcome of the consultation with the youth offending team and the view of the youth offending team?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The youth offending team cannot actually veto an application. If it objects to a particular application, we expect further dialogue to take place on what it has submitted, but that does not mean that the process should be dragged out unnecessarily.
Lord Rosser
I accept that the team cannot veto it, but my question was: if it does not agree with it, can it oppose it in court? When the thing goes to court, will it be necessary for the court to be told of the outcome of the consultation of the youth offending team and the view of the youth offending team?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
This is a specific issue. As I said, I would expect that the court would consider all consultations that had taken place and advice that had been received in considering this element. Certainly, the intention in providing for these orders would be that the youth offending team had a central role. It would also be represented in court. If there were an occasion where the team felt strongly enough, yes, the short answer is that it would be represented at the court hearing if it thought that its issues were not being considered in the right way.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his response to the question and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, my amendment is grouped with the debate on Clause 17 stand part and Amendment 22DA in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. Within the past few minutes, he has sent me a note asking me to apologise to the Committee. Like many of us, his anticipation of what would happen, and when, was rather thrown. He said that he had an impossible diary today with long-agreed speaking engagements outside the House. However, in case the Minister thinks that that lets him off the hook from attack from that quarter, the noble Lord has primed the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to speak on his behalf on his later amendments. The noble Lord said that he would not dream of considering voting before Report anyway, although I think one might add “ … ” to that.
My amendment is to Clause 17. I have not sought to delete the clause from the Bill because I wonder whether it might be possible to discuss a compromise. I am aware that this is a delicate issue on which there has already been quite a lot of focus. The clause provides that Section 49 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933—it has a long pedigree—is not to apply to proceedings on IPNAs. That section restricts reporting of proceedings in which children and young persons are concerned. That provision restricting reporting also has an exception within it. Is that exception not sufficient for the Government's purposes? The exception is that if the court is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so, it may dispense to any specified extent with the requirements of the section. Is that not sufficient? That is Section 49(4)(a). Section 49(5) provides that the court can similarly dispense with the requirements of the provision if it is appropriate to do so for the purposes of avoiding injustice to the child or young person.
We have talked on a number of occasions about one purpose of the ASBI being to avoid criminalising young people, whom we hope to divert from a criminal career—not to consolidate a criminal career. Given the way in which reporting would be likely to happen, this provision would criminalise the young person and have a very unfortunate long-term impact. “Naming and shaming” is not a term I like to use—it means stigmatising and putting a negative label on the young person. There must be a very high risk of perpetuating the problems which an IPNA should be looking to nip in the bud.
We have also talked about positive re-engagement and rehabilitation. I question whether not imposing reporting restrictions would be a deterrent. Is there any evidence that it might be? There are also, of course, safeguarding concerns. This had not occurred to me, but I am told that professionals consider that there is a risk that children who are identified as having been involved in anti-social behaviour may engage in risk-taking behaviour or be more susceptible to being groomed. This is very much in our mind at the moment.
In all, it seems to me that the risks, quite apart from the concerns that have been voiced by the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Local Government Association, are too big. Perhaps the Minister can tell the Committee what lies behind this; what evidence the Government have that this is the right way to go; what assessments have been made to evaluate safeguarding risks, and whether the Government have kept in mind the impact on a child’s rehabilitation. I beg to move.
Lord Hope of Craighead
I add just a short point to what the noble Baroness has said. When one looks at the draft guidance at page 26, one can see what the Government are thinking of here. The point is made that making the public aware of the perpetrator and the terms of the order can be an important part of the process in tackling anti-social behaviour. One can follow the thinking behind that proposition. When one reads on, however, one sees that there will be circumstances in which either the police or the council may decide not to publicise the fact that an IPNA has been made. It seems to me that the power—or the discretion, perhaps one should say—to decide whether or not publicity should be given is being taken away from the court and given to the police or the council. Will the Minister explain why that is being done, bearing in mind the point that the noble Baroness has made about the discretion which exists within Section 49?
It is a very big thing to take away from the court the power to restrict publicity, bearing in mind the reach of the whole of Part 1, which is what we are concerned with, including Clause 5, which permits an application for an injunction to be made without notice being given to the respondent. The court would have no power to stop the press if they happened to be there reporting what had taken place. It would be a very serious matter to go as far as the clause goes without a full explanation why exercise of discretion is being taken away from the court and being given to the police or the council, who are not answerable to the court for what they do.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I speak from personal experience of dealing with the previous regime under ASBOs. There was a tendency among some local authorities to publicise how many ASBOs they had been granted by publishing a rogues gallery of photographs of people against whom ASBOs had been granted. This was done for political purposes, not to pursue the ends of justice. Some young people thought that having an ASBO against them—or, in this case, an IPNA—was a badge of honour that they could show off to their mates. They were young people with a juvenile attitude. It almost encouraged them to breach the ASBO because their picture had been publicised and they had local notoriety. There is a danger that this provision could make what was a very unhelpful situation under the previous regime even worse.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone (LD)
My Lords, I endorse that and remind the House that when ASBOs were first considered under previous legislation, that worry was aired at some length in this Chamber. Things could go either way. Either you could have it as a badge of honour or it could be a mark that affected a young person or child’s life considerably. Either way, publicity had little to offer that was positive or helpful.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this has been a useful debate. I hope that the Minister can respond positively to it, because this is causing enormous concern. There is a great difference between the current regime of ASBOs—we still have them, and we propose that we keep them—and the new regime that the Government propose. We are talking about lifting reporting restrictions widely not for somebody who has caused harassment, alarm or distress, but someone who has caused merely nuisance and annoyance and breached the order. A child aged 10 who has been given an IPNA injunction for causing nuisance and annoyance—as I said earlier this week, I think that most children of 10 are at some point quite capable of causing nuisance and annoyance—could breach that injunction and find reporting restrictions lifted. That lifting of reporting restrictions does not seem to be a reasoned decision taken in certain circumstances—it is in every case. I do not understand why. I share the views expressed by other noble Lords. It is for the Minister to explain why he thinks that this is an appropriate and proper measure, because I fail to understand that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made a valuable point about safeguarding: whether children who receive publicity as a result of having caused nuisance and annoyance could be at risk. Could they be subject to grooming? Could they be targeted in any way? Have the Government done any assessment or evaluation? I cannot believe that such a clause would be brought forward without a great deal of thought, but I could be wrong. Have the Government undertaken any assessment of the impact that that could have on a child aged 10, 11 or 12? Given the naming and shaming effect of civil orders on children, have the Government consulted those organisations which seek to protect children to find out their views and how they think that it would impact on them? We are extremely worried, particularly given the low threshold level required for an order.
It really is incumbent on the Minister to explain the reasons for this clause. I hope that he has heard the concerns across the Committee. His explanation today will go a long way to seeing whether this is a matter to which we will return on Report.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank noble Lords for speaking in this short debate on an important issue, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee for moving her amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is not here, but we are aware of his sentiments through the Marshalled List, on which he gave notice of his intention to oppose the Question that Clause 17 stand part of the Bill.
As my noble friend Lady Hamwee said, the Bill in its current form specifically states that Section 49 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 is disapplied. This allows the details of under-18s subject to the new injunction to be reported unless the court imposes a restriction under Section 39 of the same Act. The same is true of the new criminal behaviour order, which is covered by a similar, parallel provision under Part 2.
My noble friend’s amendment would limit this disapplication to 16 and 17 year-olds. We know that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, thinks that it should apply to all young people. I understand the sentiments behind these amendments, but there is a strong case for maintaining the status quo in this area. There is a real need to allow reporting on under-18s in certain cases where it is necessary and proportionate, primarily to allow for effective enforcement of the order, with communities able to play their part in tackling the anti-social behaviour by alerting the police if, for example, the offender breaches the conditions of their order.
There are further legitimate reasons for lifting reporting restrictions. Publicising that action has been taken against anti-social individuals can also provide reassurance to the public that action can and will be taken, and can act as a deterrent to other individuals behaving without due consideration for their community. However, these legitimate aims must be weighed against the effect on the young person of making it known to their community that they have been subject to a formal court order, albeit a civil one. We made it quite clear in the draft guidance that we published last month, of which noble Lords are aware, that local agencies must consider whether it is necessary and proportionate to interfere with the young person’s right to privacy and whether it is likely to affect a young person’s behaviour, with each case decided carefully on its own facts.
Furthermore, the courts are used to making sensitive decisions, having been dealing with such cases since the reporting arrangements for ASBOs were changed by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005. The courts reinforced this position, as illustrated by the wealth of case law on the issue, by upholding the legislation that allows for reporting of under-18s and makes it clear that it is sometimes necessary. The legislation that we are examining today has been drafted to mirror these same provisions. This has worked in the past, and the case law provides further guidance on the factors that should be considered, and on how the court should go about making such decisions.
However, the Bill has made some changes that go further towards ensuring that the rights of young people are always properly considered. We see the role of the youth offending team as key. These front-line professionals work directly with young offenders to tackle the underlying causes of their behaviour. The Bill states that the youth offending team must be consulted before an application may be made for either an injunction or a criminal behaviour order. It will be able to give an invaluable insight into the effects that reporting would have on a young person, to allow for more informed decision-making by applicants and the courts on this issue.
It is worth pointing out that once these powers are in place, all applications for injunctions will be heard in the youth court, which is not currently the situation for ASBOs. The youth courts are best placed to make such decisions, so this move will also ensure that the right outcomes on reporting for the offender and the community are achieved. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is quite right. Discretion rests wholly with the court. The applicant for an injunction can express a view to the court on this matter, but the decision rests with the court.
My noble friend Lord Paddick asked whether there would be a presumption that reporting was permissible unless stated otherwise by the court, meaning that you would end up with a badge of honour situation. We are trying to change the way we deal with anti-social young people. We are focusing on working with the young person. All the debates we have had on IPNAs show how this new system provides a fresh approach to this issue. It will allow the youth offending team to be party to the decision-making process. The team is likely to be working with the young person already and will be able to advise on what current interventions are in place, whether the young person is engaging and what effects publicity may have. I think that covers the point made by my noble friend Lady Linklater.
I am a little surprised by the view taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, because the previous Administration introduced these provisions in Section 49 of the Children and Young Persons Act through the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act. I shall quote the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, who was then a Home Office Minister, because it is very important to show that there has been a degree of unanimity on this among those of us responsible for dealing with these matters. Publicising procedures is a very important part of the local agencies’ attempts and efforts to deal with anti-social behaviour. The noble Lord said:
“It is about people being aware of those who have been challenged over the effects of their behaviour through the ASBO process. That challenge is very important. I believe, and I know that my colleagues believe, that we need to demonstrate to young people what unacceptable behaviour is. We need to draw a line. People need to understand exactly when behaviour is acceptable and when it is unacceptable. It is in the absence of those clear messages—those clear dividing lines—that young people get into the habit of the abusing behaviour that can have such a profound and damaging impact in our communities. So, yes, I do agree that publicity surrounding proceedings is an important part of the process. It is not about naming and shaming. I do not accept that tag, or title, at all”.—[Official Report, 23/4/08; col. 1612.].”
Baroness Smith of Basildon
Those are wise words indeed, but will the Minister confirm that my noble friend Lord Bassam was speaking about anti-social behaviour in terms of harassment, distress and alarm, and not an IPNA, which is to cause nuisance and annoyance?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Baroness will know that an IPNA can be applied also in cases where there may have been harassment, alarm and distress, so although nuisance and annoyance is the test for an IPNA, it is not the absolute or exclusive text.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
This clause would apply to those who have committed a breach of an IPNA by causing nuisance and annoyance. Would that be correct?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Baroness is quite right, but what we are seeking to do is to enable the IPNA-based process—at the discretion of the court, which I must emphasise to noble Lords, and in conjunction with the advice of the youth offending team—to determine whether this is the best way of dealing with this young person.
Lord Deben (Con)
I hope that my noble friend will stick hard to this, because one of the issues that most affected one in a very long life as a constituency Member of Parliament was the number of people whose lives had been made absolutely intolerable by activities of this kind. It is important that we stick to this in the way in which he has proposed.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank my noble friend for those encouraging words. I feel that we are right on this issue and I suspect that all noble Lords will know that, with discretion on this matter resting with the courts, there will be proper evaluation of the issues before any decision is made. I would expect any court to take full account of the nature of the behaviour before deciding whether to impose such a condition. I might add that the Home Affairs Select Committee considered this point during the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill. In its report on the draft Bill, the HASC said,
“we are happy to leave the decision not to name a young person to the discretion of the judge”.
We agree that this is appropriately a matter for judicial discretion for all respondents under 18, whether older or younger than 16.
For these reasons, I am confident that the reporting of under-18s will be carefully considered and used only in circumstances where it is necessary. I hope that I have been able to put this particular issue into context and that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Hope of Craighead
I come back briefly to the point about discretion. Of course it is right that the court will have discretion as to whether to grant an injunction. In the case of an application made without notice, the clause is perfectly clear; it gives wide discretion to the court as to what to do. My concern is that if the court decides to make an order, where is its discretion if you remove the provision in Section 49 to restrict the publicity that is given to it? It is that element of discretion that I think concerns the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness. There are two discretions here. One is certainly there, very properly, in the way that the whole of Part 1 is drafted as to whether orders are to be made. It is the particular point about the discretion as to whether publicity should be given that is of concern.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (Non-Afl)
My attention is drawn by my noble and learned friend Lord Walker to paragraph 123 of the Explanatory Notes, which indicates that, even though you are getting rid of Section 49, you are left with the discretion under Section 39 of the same Act. Paragraph 123 states:
“However, section 39 of that Act does apply to these proceeding and gives the court the discretion to restrict the publication of certain information in order to protect the identity of the child or young person, for example: his or her name; address; school, etc”.
Therefore, with great respect to the Minister, his answer lies in Section 39.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood. I am sorry if I struggled to get the place name right but I am delighted that he mentioned this point because I just received a note saying that Section 39 of the 1933 Act gives the court the discretion to impose reporting restrictions.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I, too, was a little confused when the Minister referred earlier to Section 39, which the noble and learned Lord just mentioned. This will require some reading. The point, of course, is entirely right. It is how the court has discretion as regards publicity. I do not at all challenge the point on the injunction. I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for reminding the Committee that our courts are essentially public; that is where the concern comes from.
The Minister talked about the status quo. That confused me, because I thought that I was arguing for the status quo. He said that the status quo was good, but he challenged my amendment. I cannot see how we will not return to this on Report. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Marlesford
“Part 1ALittering from vehiclesCivil penalty for littering from vehicles
(1) A littering contravention in relation to a vehicle occurs when a person inside the vehicle acts in contravention of section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (offence of leaving litter).
(2) A civil enforcement officer may impose a civil penalty if a littering contravention under subsection (1) has taken place.
(3) The registered keeper of the vehicle shall for the purposes of section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 be treated as knowingly causing the littering contravention whether or not he gave any instructions for this to be done and shall be the recipient for a civil penalty under subsection (2).
(4) A civil penalty is not payable under this section by the owner of a vehicle if that vehicle is—
(a) a public service vehicle, within the meaning of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981;(b) a hackney carriage licensed under the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 or the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act 1869;(c) a vehicle licensed under section 48 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (licensing of private hire vehicles);and the person acting in contravention under this section is a passenger in that vehicle.(5) The amount of a civil penalty under subsection (2) is to be specified in regulations.
(6) The procedure for imposing a civil penalty on a person and for recovery of costs is to be set out in regulations.
(7) The regulations must, in particular, require the responsible authority to give the person written notice specifying—
(a) the amount of the penalty, (b) the reasons for imposing it, and(c) the date by which and manner in which it is to be paid.(8) Regulations may—
(a) give a person on whom a civil penalty is imposed a right to appeal against the decision to an adjudicator;(b) specify the grounds on which a person may request an appeal;(c) specify the time within which a person must request an appeal;(d) make provision for and in connection with the appointment of adjudicators;(e) make further provision about appeals (including provision as to the powers available on an appeal).(9) The registered keeper of the vehicle for the purposes of this section shall be taken to be the person in whose name the vehicle was registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 at the time of the contravention.
(10) A civil enforcement officer under this section must be—
(a) an individual employed by the responsible authority, or(b) where the authority has made arrangements with any person for the purposes of this section, an individual employed by that person to act as a civil enforcement officer.(11) A vehicle for the purposes of this section is a motor vehicle as defined in section 185(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.”
Lord Marlesford (Con)
My Lords, in proposing the new clause in Amendment 22 to provide a new civil penalty for littering from vehicles I seek to insert part of my Private Member’s Bill, which was extraordinarily enthusiastically endorsed by the House, excluding the Minister from Defra, at Second Reading on 19 July. Eight speakers from all sides of the House were good enough to come in on that summer Friday to support it. Since then I have received two placebo letters from Ministers, one from my noble friend Lord De Mauley and the other from my noble friend Lord Taylor. In a sense, they both said the same thing. They both say—this is more or less a quotation—that the Government share my frustration with the problems of roadside litter. I suggest that Governments are not elected to share the frustration of electors. They are elected in the hope that they will deal with the cause of the frustration. We want action rather than words, and I am offering a rather simple form of action to help them.
I wish to replace the criminal offence of littering from vehicles, which does not work, with a civil offence, which would work. The criminal offence does not work because it is necessary to prove who threw the litter from the vehicle. My civil offence would make responsible the keeper of the vehicle from which litter is thrown. It would impose a small fine, which he or she could pass on to whichever person in the vehicle threw the litter, in exactly the same way as if somebody borrows my car and parks it where they should not I get the parking fine. That is not a criminal offence, and it is the right way to do it.
My noble friend Lord De Mauley, in his letter to me dated 16 September, rather surprisingly suggested that:
“Such an approach clearly raises questions of proportionality and civil liberties”.
I would have thought that it did the reverse. He goes on to say:
“Littering is an unnecessary and antisocial behaviour … Littering from vehicles, particularly moving vehicles, is a dangerous form of littering”.
He gets quite excited, because he goes on to say:
“The maximum fine which can be imposed on an individual convicted for littering is £2,500, which is clearly large enough to have an immediate effect on the financial situation of many individuals. Moreover, criminal convictions can result in higher insurance premiums or, in some cases, refusal of insurance. Unspent criminal convictions, including those for littering, also of course show up on any criminal record check carried out by a prospective employer, and must also be declared when applying for visas for travel to certain countries”.
That is a bit of a sledgehammer; I believe that my rather modest little proposal would be effective. The point about the sledgehammer is that not only is it not actually used, but it really is virtually impossible to use it. I hope that the Government, after this long period that we have waited—we have been discussing this for some while—could take some action.
My noble friend Lord Taylor wrote a very nice letter to me, in which he says:
“I recognise that it can be difficult for local authority enforcement officers to identify the offender when littering takes place from a vehicle, but providing for a civil penalty to be issued to the registered keeper … would … risk sending a message to the public that littering from vehicles is less serious compared to other littering”.
Yes, of course it is less serious. My noble friend Lord Goschen is about to introduce an amendment about the much more serious matter of fly-tipping. There is no comparison.
All these things are a matter of degree. We are fortunate in having several noble and learned former Law Lords in the House; I hesitate to say anything about the law because one knows nothing about it compared to everybody else here, but surely, proportionality and all that is very important. That is why I am hoping that the Government will recognise that something should be done about this problem.
Recently, my honourable friend Mr Dan Rogerson was given a new responsibility for the waste portfolio in the Government. He wrote to the waste sector saying that the Government was going to focus on,
“the essentials that only Government can and must do”.
He is putting forward,
“a limited programme of work on waste prevention, focusing our attention on the areas where action is clearly for Government”.
That fits in rather well with what I am proposing.
Since I have taken an interest in these matters, I have been on the close look-out when I have travelled. Certainly, in three countries in Europe this summer, in Arizona in the USA and last week in Hong Kong, I was very struck by how astonishingly clean they all were compared to Britain. It is really rather shocking that not only are we the way we are, but the Government are not enthusiastically supporting the measure I am suggesting or—which I would be perfectly happy with—proposing something better. I hope it will happen. I beg to move.
Viscount Goschen (Con)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Marlesford’s amendment, which largely reflects a Private Member’s Bill that the House discussed a while ago. It seems an eminently sensible measure and I look forward to a similarly positive and supportive reply from the Minister. My Amendment 22AA, which is grouped with that of my noble friend, deals with a different issue at the other end of the waste scale: it is to do with fly-tipping.
Fly-tipping is the deliberate, planned commission of a criminal act by the illegal dumping of waste. This is a crime which blights rural areas, including the one in which I live; if I therefore have an interest, I am more than happy to declare it. The scale of the situation is scarcely credible. In 2012-13, according to statistics produced by Defra, there were 711,000 incidents, or crimes, at approximately 2,000 per day. I do not believe—and perhaps my noble friends can correct me if I am wrong—that that includes fly-tipping on private land, and private farmland in particular, which is an increasing phenomenon. That is a great deal of criminal activity but, in the same statistics pamphlet that the department has produced, there is an equally startling statistic. In the same period, only 2,200 prosecutions were undertaken. Another way of looking at it is that only crimes committed approximately on the equivalent of one day per year were brought before the courts. The odds are nowhere near sufficient to deter either the one-off or the serial offender.
Lord James of Blackheath (Con)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Marlesford on his amendment, but I wish also to make a small criticism of it—that it is lacking in focus. While it deals with the issues of litter very effectively, it does not go far enough in addressing the issues of offensive behaviour in cars and other moving vehicles, which is increasingly prevalent among young people.
I cite the example of recent Saturdays, when we have had the rugby at Twickenham. I have made endless attempts to convince my wife that rugby is a respectable pastime and not the equivalent of being found in bed with a supermodel on a Saturday afternoon, as she has often thought—although, given the way in which England have played recently, it is a good alternative. However, I persuaded my wife to come to Twickenham with me on each of the last three Saturdays and she was totally horrified at the sight of the school buses coming down the road full of children indulging in a pastime which is, I believe, called mooning. I am not going to explain it to your Lordships because we are in mixed company, but the sight of some 40 children mooning simultaneously is not a pretty one. My wife is a youth justice officer and as she watched the police motorbikes zooming past these kids, giving them a friendly wave, she said: “We have a law against this sort of thing. Why are they not being brought into court? I would put them away for a year if I got them.”
There is an omission in the amendment tabled by my noble friend in that it does not deal adequately with the bad behaviour that can come out of vehicles and interfere with others. That was one example, but there was another this week of which your Lordships should be aware. In its wisdom, the Times—I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, is not here to take down this message—is pursuing, to a ludicrous degree, the cause of cyclists to the point where they are creating a new and separate society in London, in which cyclists think they have a superior law and control over everybody in a motor car. This is going to lead to some catastrophic accidents very soon. On three mornings, driving up the A3 in the Balham and Clapham area, I have seen cyclists put their cycles up against the central reservation—not the line where the bus lane is—stand in the middle of the road with a camera and defy you to run them down while they photograph you doing it. That is what they are longing for. We need to have that sort of behaviour excluded because it is going to lead to their demise and our prosecution: it is ridiculous. I support the amendment, but it needs to go a little further.
Lord Crickhowell (Con)
My Lords, one step at a time. I am going to let my noble friend’s suggested change to the amendment pass by for the time being. However, I have a great deal of sympathy for both these amendments. I will concentrate on my noble friend Lord Marlesford’s amendment. I have now moved from my home in a national park, but I have always been horrified by the casual way that, in one of the most beautiful valleys in the countryside, people throw drink containers out of the windows of their cars as if that was a normal and natural thing to do. I am almost equally horrified—frustrated, indeed—by the attitude described by my noble friend as coming from Defra. I am not entirely surprised that it comes from officials: I am horrified that it has come in the form of letters from my noble friends who I have always regarded as thoroughly practical, sensible and wise people. I hope that my noble friend Lord Taylor will show that I am right in that respect when he responds to this debate.
The condition of our roadsides is really appalling. It is a very long time since I served in Lady Thatcher’s Government, but I well remember her returning from an overseas trip and expressing horror and consternation at the state of the road from Heathrow to London given the litter that was there, compared to the roadsides she had observed in the places she had been visiting. This was, I am afraid, one of the occasions when she did not do anything and here we are, 30 or more years later, and nothing effective has been done.
My noble friend described the comments from a Minister about the strength of the legal system and how, if you have a tough law and all the awful penalties he described, people were likely to take notice of it. I have to tell him that it is not only the hooligans and the ignorant who ignore the law. I well remember, when I was still a Member of Parliament for Pembroke, the president of my association—who had himself fought three parliamentary elections and was a distinguished local magistrate—telling me of driving back over the Preseli Hills from a magistrates’ meeting in Haverfordwest. He was horrified because someone in the car in front of him was throwing papers out of the window every few hundred yards. After he had driven for 10 or 20 miles and the confetti had been scattered along the roadside for a considerable distance, he decided to stop to see what the litter consisted of. He stopped, picked up the litter and discovered that it was the minutes of the magistrates’ meeting that he had just left. There you had a magistrate leaving a magistrates’ meeting who was so terrified of the law which my noble friend has described that he was taking no notice of it at all.
We have a very practical suggestion from my noble friend and it does not deserve the casual and rather absurd way that it has been treated so far by Defra. I hope that the Minister, if he cannot accept the amendment in exactly its present form, will tell the House that he will be prepared to discuss this whole matter in much more detail with his department in the hope that we can make some belated progress on this urgent problem.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, this is the first time that I have intervened on the Bill. I should declare an interest as leader of a London borough council; indeed, it is the council that I now learn is the world’s centre of mooning. I should apologise to Lady James of Blackheath for the offence that was caused. I will try to avert my eyes when I next go to Twickenham.
I express my immense support for my noble friend Lord Goschen and his amendment. He is exactly correct to point out the scourge of fly-tipping and I hope that the Government will be supportive. Equally, I am extremely supportive in principle and in practice of my noble friend Lord Marlesford’s amendment. I am going to anticipate what I fear the Minister might say about it, in the hope of averting the risk that he will push it aside. There are issues of policing that local authorities would have to face with this. It is not as easy to identify a car from which a piece of paper has been thrown as it is to find a parked car of which you can take a photograph and stick it on the web, so that the person who has parked the car can see the offence that they have committed. The proposed process imitates the process for dealing with a parking offence, and will still have issues of proof and so on attached to it. I am sure that the Minister may well be tempted to say that. None the less, I am sure that there are ways in which, with a will, these kinds of problems could be overcome. I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will take it forward in a positive spirit.
I should add to what my noble friend Lord Crickhowell said about motorways, where the situation is appalling. Last time I went up the M1, I saw the astonishing investment by the Highways Agency in having ridiculously exaggerated numbers of cameras at the first few junctions. Millions must have been spent on them, the side notices and so on. Yet along the side of the road, totally neglected, were piles of litter. Something ought to be done by the Highways Agency to prioritise investment and deal with this problem, which is a terrible advertisement for our country along its main highways and which a small local authority is not by itself competent to deal with.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I find myself in complete agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, on this issue. It should not have been a surprise to your Lordships’ House that when we debated the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, there was enthusiastic—indeed, passionate—support for the objectives he put forward. If one talks to the public at large, they regularly raise the state of the streets and pavements, and the impact that has on their community. That is why both these amendments are so relevant to this Bill.
Noble Lords may be aware of the “Panorama” programme that my noble friend Lady Bakewell presented a few weeks ago, in which she was able to show the cumulative impact of litter on anti-social behaviour in a local community, and the pride otherwise taken by that community in how it looked and about whether that litter was cleared. At Second Reading, we were very pleased to support the Private Member’s Bill. I am not going to suggest, nor is the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, suggesting, that every word in it was perfect; we would have welcomed the opportunity to debate it further in Committee. But if the Minister were able to take it away and look at the objectives that it is seeking to achieve, that would be very welcome.
On the issue of fly-tipping, one of the problems has been that so many local authorities have been forced into the position of cancelling their door-to-door collections of larger and bulkier items. While some people have tried to make alternative arrangements, some think it is easier to dump it in the car, drive somewhere and tip it out. Local farmers—and local authorities, as the noble Lord, Lord True, said—speak about the increasing costs that they incur in having to deal with fly-tipping and litter.
I have never been subject to mooning on the motorway—I am not quite sure whether that is within the scope of the amendment—but if an area looks bad then behaviour becomes bad as well, which is of great concern to many people on private and public housing estates across the board. I hope that the noble Lord can take away the serious sentiment that, by dealing with litter and fly-tipping, we would improve our communities and make them better places to live.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I could not agree more with the noble Baroness about the importance of behaviour regarding the environment. All noble Lords would join in that sentiment. I do see this as an ongoing debate on how Parliament, the Government, and communities as a whole can deal with what is manifestly a big problem. I am grateful, therefore, for the opportunity to debate these issues through the amendments tabled by my noble friends Lord Marlesford and Lord Goschen. My noble friend Lord Marlesford has come back on this issue following his Private Member’s Bill and the amendments that he made to previous legislation on similar grounds.
I shall address his amendment first. I know that littering from vehicles is something that he feels about passionately. I have been in the House when he has raised this issue previously and I also know that many noble Lords share his concerns, as I do myself. I consider it a source of considerable annoyance to see the roadside littered—if I may use the word—with discarded litter, discarded by people who do not seem to care about the visual and other impacts on the environment and other people’s neighbourhoods. Therefore, I come from a position of saying that littering should be treated seriously. My noble friend Lord Crickhowell is absolutely right. It is simply unacceptable to drop litter. Littering from vehicles can also present a danger by distracting or even injuring other road users or by obstructing the highway. Littering is anti-social and this is an anti-social behaviour Bill. It demonstrates disrespect for the community and it incurs costs for the taxpayer. In many communities, a lot of litter collecting is done by voluntary community groups. In my own area, the local civic society takes on responsibility for clearing up irresponsibly discarded litter. The Highways Agency spends around £10 million a year clearing litter and this often involves closing lanes, which also causes delays to other road users.
As my noble friend explained, his proposed new clause seeks to make it easier for local authorities to fine people when littering is witnessed from their vehicle. My noble friend feels that more people must be punished for this anti-social behaviour and that, if more people were or could be punished, fewer people would commit the offence in the first place. The Government are at one with my noble friend’s intentions. However, as my noble friend Lord De Mauley advised my noble friend Lord Marlesford during the Second Reading debate on his Littering from Vehicles Bill earlier this year, we do not believe that the approach he proposes is likely to contribute significantly to the resolution of this problem, and I think that I owe it to the Committee to try to explain that.
At present, because littering is a criminal offence, we advise local authorities not to issue fixed penalty notices for littering unless they are confident that the evidence against the offender would stand up if the case went to court. It is, of course, for local authorities to satisfy themselves about this and to assess the strength of each case on its merits. The amendment would also mean that, as a matter of law, the registered keeper of a vehicle could be punished for an offence committed by someone else, such as a passenger, or a family member who also had the use of the vehicle. The amendment makes clear my noble friend’s intention that the registered keeper should be held liable whether or not they gave instructions or allowed the contravention to take place. People who are innocent of any offence would therefore have either to pay the fine or take on further inconvenience and expense in challenging it, while the actual offender would go unpunished. It is hard to see how this approach is going to change offenders’ behaviour if someone else bears the punishment for their wrongdoing. In law, fairness and proportionality are crucial in gaining public support for the use of fines to punish this type of behaviour, but under the amendment an innocent party might be punished for the crime of another.
I accept that there is a place for keeper liability when it comes to the enforcement of traffic-related offences, but it is a very big step to extend this principle to other categories of offences. Government guidance on the use of fixed penalties is very clear that people should be fined only when it is proportionate and in the public interest to do so, and fining the registered keeper for any littering offence committed from their vehicle, regardless of their guilt, is neither fair nor proportionate.
Enforcement is the issue, and I agree with all noble Lords who have spoken that we want the message to the public to be loud and clear: littering is a crime. However, the amendment would distort that message by essentially decriminalising littering from vehicles, and at the same time it would create a legal anomaly. Littering while standing on the pavement would remain a crime, but dropping the same litter from within a vehicle would be treated as a civil offence. That risks sending the wrong message—that littering from vehicles is not really so serious.
More importantly, we also doubt that this proposal will achieve my noble friend’s desired aim, as it relies on the offence being witnessed. Its effectiveness would be limited by the number of enforcement officers available to the local authority, and they cannot be everywhere all the time. It will not be of any help when the offence takes place in an isolated area, in the dark or at such speed that the vehicle registration cannot be recorded. In some cases, CCTV may help, but even CCTV has limits as to the level of detail that it captures.
When my noble friend raised this proposal in the context of the Localism Bill in 2011, the then Minister, my noble friend Lord Shutt, responded:
“It makes sense to learn the lessons from the application of that approach in London before moving to wider legislation”.—[Official Report, 10/10/11; col. 1370.]
I know that my noble friend Lord Marlesford feels that the powers under the 9th and 10th London Local Authorities Acts have been in force in London for a year and that we should therefore have had time to assess their operation by now. However, the current evidence suggests that these powers have not been widely used. It has taken a long time for the boroughs to put in place the necessary appeals system and paperwork. Barely a handful of civil penalties have been issued so far, and the new threat that registered keepers will be fined does not seem to have made much of a difference to the behaviour—
Lord Crickhowell
I am grateful to my noble friend. He is giving one lot of statistics but does he have any statistics relating to the number of occasions when criminal prosecutions have been effectively brought for the same offence anywhere in the United Kingdom?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I apologise to my noble friend because I do not have such figures. I am not quoting any figures here; I was saying that I understand that only a handful of civil penalties have been issued. I shall certainly write to my noble friend if I am able to obtain the answer for the number of littering crimes that have been committed. As I said earlier, enforcement is the issue. The new threat that registered keepers will be fined does not seem to have made much of a difference to the behaviour of the general public. After this debate, it would be interesting for me to talk to my noble friend Lord True about his experience in his borough and to find out how useful he has found these provisions under the London Local Authorities Acts.
The lesson we have learnt so far is that the evidence does not support this approach as being so effective in tackling the problem as to justify rolling it out on a national scale. While we share my noble friend’s sentiment and respect his persistence, we cannot support this amendment and I hope that he will withdraw it.
We have heard a number of speeches. My noble friend Lord James of Blackheath sought to get to the bottom of several issues, but we doubt that my noble friend’s proposal will assist us in dealing with the problems mentioned by many of the speakers in this debate.
I now turn to the amendment from my noble friend Lord Goschen. He alluded to a number of matters on which I can now inform the Committee. This amendment brings to our attention the problem of fly-tipping. Like littering from vehicles, this is another example of individuals having little care or concern about the impact of their actions on the environment.
I am pleased to be able to reassure my noble friend that there are currently seizure and disposal powers in respect of vehicles used for illegal waste disposal. These are set out in Section 6 of the Control of Pollution (Amendment) Act 1989 and they apply in Scotland, England and Wales. However, we will be improving on these powers when we commence provisions in the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 to repeal and replace them.
The new, wider powers relate to the seizure of vehicles used or about to be used in the commission of offences under Section 33 of the Environmental Protection Act, which relates to the unauthorised deposit of waste and includes fly-tipped waste, under Section 34, which imposes a duty of care to ensure that waste is transferred to an authorised person, and under Regulation 38(1) or (2) of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010, which require waste operations to be carried out in accordance with a permit. It will also make it easier for local authorities and the Environment Agency to exercise their powers—for example, by removing the need for a warrant before seizure and for the retention of the vehicles pending investigation or completion of court proceedings.
The new, wider powers also provide for the forfeiture of seized vehicles following convictions for offences under Section 33(1) of the Environmental Protection Act or Regulation 38(1) of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations. The new Environmental Protection Act powers have already been commenced in relation to Wales and are in the process of being commenced for England. The related secondary legislation is in the process of being drafted and finalised. Subject to the normal clearance procedures, these powers are due to be brought into force as early as possible in 2014. Given that the powers sought by my noble friend’s amendment already exist and are in the process of being improved, I do not think the amendment is necessary and I hope that he will feel able not to press it.
Lord Marlesford
My Lords, it really is not good enough to say, as my noble friend has said, “We can’t do everything, so we should do nothing.” If we took what he said literally, absolutely nothing would happen this side of the election. That is not an impressive record for any Government to stand on. I wish one of the legal experts would intervene, but I do not believe that it would be seen as disproportionate or unfair for the keeper of a vehicle to face a small and moderate civil penalty fine of about £80 for having a vehicle from which litter is thrown if that would act as a deterrent.
My noble friend said that nothing is happening in the London area at the moment, but I understand that two London boroughs, Wandsworth and Redbridge, have agreed to pilot the new legislation. One of the problems is that only the Government can ensure that legislation is effective, and they clearly have the responsibility to resolve one particular legislative anomaly: local authorities can contact the DVLA for information on a registered keeper only when it is suspected that a criminal offence has occurred. There is no reason why the amendment could not be redrafted so that, even for a civil offence, local authorities could get the details of the keeper if rubbish had been seen to be thrown from a vehicle. There is nothing undemocratic, unfair or disproportionate about that.
In fact, I would say that my proposal is a great deal more proportionate and effective, because if it were accepted, something would be happening. At the moment nothing is happening and the Minister is saying that absolutely nothing will happen. If the public listened to what is said in the privacy of your Lordships’ Chamber, I am not sure that they might not go out with joy. They would not, perhaps, do as my noble friend Lord James suggested, but they might feel, “Well, this is the moment when we can throw out any bits of paper, because we’ve not only been told that nothing can be done about it—because it can’t be proved that it was us—but we’ve also been told that the Government have absolutely no intention of doing anything about it”. The message seems to be that if we cannot be the cleanest country in Europe, let us ensure that we are the dirtiest. I reject that. I shall, of course, withdraw the amendment, but I shall expect to have talks with my noble friend and I hope that something will be brought back on Report. I may well then test the opinion of the House. I seek leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Corporate anti-social behaviour order
(1) It is an offence for a corporate body to act in a manner that caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons.
(2) In this section “corporate body” has the same meaning as in Part 12 of the Corporation Tax Act 2009 (see section 1005 of that Act).
(3) The Secretary of State shall, by regulations, set out the circumstances under which an offence has been committed under subsection (1).”
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this is a probing amendment on a subject not too dissimilar from the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. Our new clause is about corporate anti-social behaviour. Other than the community protection order, which includes the power to close premises that cause severe problems associated with anti-social behaviour, the Bill’s emphasis is not on the corporate but on the individual.
Too often the public feel, sometimes justifiably, that although they as individuals have to obey the law or be taken to task, companies seem not to be targeted until things get very serious and action is taken that could lead to their closure. A corporate anti-social behaviour order would be targeted at actions by a corporation or company that are deliberately socially harmful, and cause harassment, alarm or distress at a local rather than a national level. It would not target legitimate businesses or business activities—even businesses that some might regard as unpalatable. For example, there is a lot of talk about payday loans, and some people do not like gambling. The order would not focus on business activity, and there is no intention to comment on business activities that may cause distress at a national level; it would be used only where local disregard for the public and for the environment could cause harassment, alarm or distress.
The purpose of such an anti-social behaviour order would be preventive. It could identify low-level behaviour and seek to prevent it increasing in frequency or becoming more serious, as is often the case. Some of the examples I shall give tie in with the comments about litter in the previous debate—examples such as takeaways and other businesses that fail to deal with rubbish outside their premises, or premises that are unnecessarily noisy. I remember, when I was a Member of Parliament in the other place, dealing with a business in a residential neighbourhood. It had to have delivery vehicles coming and going—but at 5 am, did those vehicles really need to leave their engines running, causing considerable distress to those who could not sleep, or were woken first thing in the morning?
There could also be a pre-sanction stage, with an acceptable behaviour contract, to deal with problems. I think that such a provision would be welcomed by businesses that do their best to deal with such problems, but find themselves up against other companies that cut corners and do not fulfil their obligations to local communities. An anti-social behaviour order for local businesses would complement the community protection order by offering sanctions targeted at businesses, which might be used before more serious action that could lead to closure of the business was taken.
A corporate anti-social behaviour order would be business-friendly, because it would nip the problem in the bud and give the business the opportunity to deal with it before it faced far more serious action. It also gives the opportunity for preventive measures; I am thinking particularly about littering and noise pollution. At the moment the legislation focuses on individual behaviour—that is where the community protection order comes in—rather than on the actions of companies. It is a preventive measure, designed to be more effective, more helpful and more friendly towards business. It could also lead to better engagement between businesses and the local authority, which would have a reason to hold early discussions about problems that could arise and how it would deal with them, and also to better relations with local residents, by nipping any such problems in the bud before they get too serious. I beg to move.
Baroness Hamwee
The noble Baroness raises an interesting point. I have been wondering about other examples, and the one that immediately came to mind was the noise of aircraft coming into Heathrow in the middle of the night, which is a big issue in my area—but perhaps the order is not intended to be as extensive as that.
I have a serious question for the noble Baroness, which is whether it is appropriate for criminal offences to be created by regulations. That is in effect what subsection (3) of the proposed new clause would do, as it states:
“The Secretary of State shall, by regulations, set out the circumstances under which an offence has been committed”.
I appreciate that this is a probing amendment, so I do not want to be too tedious about it, but that struck me as a point of principle that one might want to consider.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, the Government are often accused of not listening. I listened with great interest to the previous debate, initiated by my noble friend Lord Marlesford, and as I went over to the Box I noticed a piece of litter on the floor. I acted promptly and handed it to the doorkeeper—so there is some hope of instant action on the part of the Government.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for tabling her amendment with the proposed new clause and raising an important point. I agree with her that, where businesses act in a way that is likely to cause harm to others, they should be held to account. However, the Government feel that a corporate ASBO is unnecessary. We believe that we have drafted the new powers in such a way as to be flexible enough to deal with this eventuality.
For example, the new community protection notice, which we will discuss when we come to Part 4, can be issued against a corporate body. If that corporate body is persistently acting in an unreasonable manner and having a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality, it can be held to account through the new notice. While the community protection notice replaces litter and graffiti notices, it can be used for much more, including noise and other behaviours. What is more, breach is a criminal offence and, on conviction, a business could be fined up to £20,000. It is a power which provides real teeth.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
Will the Minister indicate whether unincorporated bodies will be caught by the provision, or would that require additional legislation?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I believe that the clause as drafted could apply to an individual or an organisation. When we discuss that wording, it will be clarified. This applies to an individual or an organisation—which incorporates the issue raised by the noble Lord. In addition, where the use of business premises has resulted, or is likely to result, in nuisance to members of the public or disorder nearby, the new closure powers that we are introducing, to which the noble Baroness referred, will be able to close a premises immediately. The police and/or local authorities can act quickly where a business acts anti-socially. Again, breach is a criminal offence with the potential for a significant fine.
It is also worth saying that sometimes it may be a particular individual who is the root cause of the anti-social behaviour—for instance, the business owner or a store manager—and not the business as a whole. In those circumstances, the police, council or others listed in Clause 4 could apply to the court for an injunction against the individual on the test of nuisance or annoyance. Hopefully that would deal with the issue and, while breach in this case may not be a criminal offence, it could still result in a large fine or even a custodial sentence.
In putting forward this amendment, the noble Baroness said that it was a probing amendment to seek clarification. I hope that on the basis of the example I have given, by drawing the attention of noble Lords to the fact that we will be discussing this issue under Part 4 and with my explanation, she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. I am not sure whether it will be helpful to probe the matter further when we get to community protection notices, because they deal with individuals. If there is a persistent litter problem in certain premises, it would not be possible to have a community protection notice against every individual. My worry with his other proposal, the closure of premises, is that it would deal with the problem by closing the business. Often, it might be better to take preventive action with the corporate body, the business, to prevent closure and to deal with the problem, rather than to act against individuals and then, if that does not work, close the business. I am trying to find a pre-emptive way to prevent the problem rather than deal with it once it had happened. However, I am grateful to the noble Lord for taking the point seriously. Perhaps we can return to it and discuss it further when we consider community protection. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendments 22C and 22D. I hope that I can be quick with these. Amendment 22B seeks clarification as to the standard of proof required for a criminal behaviour order. Of Clause 21, the Minister said in the Commons:
“The draft guidance to the Bill makes it clear that we expect that the courts will follow existing case law from the House of Lords in relation to antisocial behaviour orders and that they will apply the criminal standard to criminal behaviour orders”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/10/13; col. 543.]
He then said that an amendment similar to this was unnecessary. If guidance is needed on an issue as serious as the standard of proof, it should be in the legislation. The Joint Committee on Human Rights, which reported before Report in the Commons, said that that should be in the Bill.
Amendment 22C would import the test of necessity—as for an ASBO—to the making of a criminal behaviour order. Amendment 22D would import a test that we have already discussed in the context of an IPNA from the Crime and Disorder Act, which would provide that the court should disregard an act that the defendant shows is “reasonable in the circumstances”. That is linked to the standard of proof but is a separate issue. When we discussed a similar provision on Monday, the answer was that, for an IPNA the court must consider whether an injunction was “just and convenient”. That, of course, is not the same test as would apply to a criminal behaviour order. I beg to move.
Lord True
My Lords, I need a little help on Amendment 22C. I heard what my noble friend said about applying a test of necessity. It seems that this potentially weakens the ability of the court by adding that it,
“is necessary to protect any person”.
The kind of practices with which we are dealing here can relate to manner and habit. It may not be that there is a proximate need to protect an individual from a specific act. It could be that I as a lawyer do not understand this, but it seemed to me that the court is surely best placed to decide. The broader definition, which does not add in the need to protect a specific individual against a specific act, seemed to me to be satisfactory. I was content with the drafting presented by the Government.
Lord Rosser
I certainly await with interest what the Minister has to say in response to these amendments. Subject to what he may say, at the moment it is not entirely clear why Clause 21(3) does not say that the court has to be satisfied “beyond reasonable doubt”. After all, other parts of the Bill lay down the standard of proof, whether that be reasonable doubt or the balance of probabilities.
The draft guidance on criminal behaviour orders, under the heading “Test” on page 29, states:
“If the court is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt”.
Therefore, one thinks that the term is in the draft guidance, although it is not considered important enough to be in the Bill. However, when one turns to page 30, under the paragraph headed, “The Test”, it states:
“For a CBO to be imposed, the court must be satisfied that … the offender has engaged in behaviour”,
et cetera. There is no reference to “beyond reasonable doubt”.
So there is one case where the draft guidance states “beyond reasonable doubt”, and on the following page it is not put in. On page 31, under “Standard of proof”, the guidance states:
“It is expected that courts will follow the reasoning in”—
the case of Clingham v Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea—
“and apply the criminal standard of proof”.
Therefore, in one version it is expected that that is what the court will do. The reference to the test on page 30 does not say anything about the court having to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt. However, on the previous page—29–when reference is made to the test, the words “beyond reasonable doubt” are put in. There is an inconsistency in the draft guidance over the wording and there is no reference at all to it in the Bill. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, is making the point that it has to be beyond reasonable doubt.
I have a further issue with the criminal behaviour order. The draft guidance states:
“The prosecution, usually the Crown Prosecution Service … may apply for the CBO after the offender has been convicted of a criminal offence … The CBO hearing will occur after, or at the same time as, the sentencing for the criminal conviction. The CPS will rely on the police or council to build the case to be presented to the court”.
However, the following paragraph states:
“There is no scope for retrospective applications”.
Does that mean that if the application is not made at the same time as sentencing but is done after the offender has been convicted of a criminal offence, there could be a separate hearing into the criminal behaviour order, with the police or the council having to present their case to the court and prove it beyond reasonable doubt? Perhaps the Minister can confirm that if the application is made in that way, the case has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.
How long after the offender has been convicted of a criminal offence can the application be made for the CBO—bearing in mind that the next paragraph appears to say that there is no scope for retrospective applications? Does that just mean that there cannot be a retrospective application in a case that has already been heard and dealt with? It would be helpful if the Minister could clarify how long after the offender has been convicted of a criminal offence an application can be made for a CBO. Is it envisaged that it will be heard on the same day? What happens if the conviction occurs at 4 pm? If the police and the council have built up a case to present to the court, do you then continue on that day with the case being presented for a CBO? Do you adjourn the proceedings? How long can they be adjourned for? It would be very helpful if the Minister, as well as responding to the issue about reasonable doubt, could tell us something about how the logistics of an application for a CBO will work in the light of what is in the draft guidance.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, these amendments move us on to Part 2 and another series of issues, with us now considering the criminal behaviour order. I will deal with Amendments 22C and 22D first, but on Amendment 22B the Government expect that the courts will follow the reasoning in the McCann case and apply the criminal standard of proof—that is, beyond reasonable doubt—to the first condition of the test for the criminal behaviour order. We acknowledge that the criminal standard is apt in this case because of the serious consequences that flow from a breach of the order, namely a criminal conviction attracting a maximum sentence of five years’ imprisonment.
For that reason, we did not consider it necessary to specify the standard of proof for the order in the Bill. The clear ruling of the House of Lords applies equally here as it does to ASBOs under Section 1C of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. Clause 1 specifies the standard of proof for the new injunction because, in that case, we are applying a new civil standard. That is not the case here. The approach we have taken in Clause 21 is exactly the same as that taken in the provisions in Part 9 of the Bill which provide for the new sexual harm prevention orders and sexual risk orders, which we have of course already debated. However, I am very happy to confirm that the criminal standard of proof will apply in this instance, a point that is already made in the Explanatory Notes.
Amendment 22D seeks to add a test of reasonableness to the first limb of the test for issuing a criminal behaviour order. As my noble friend has explained, this amendment imports Section 1(5) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and it has the same purpose as Amendment 20H, which we have already debated in the context of Clause 1. As I said when we debated that amendment, we expect that the courts will consider, as a matter of course, whether it is reasonable on the facts to make an order. However, we will consider the matter further so that we have done everything necessary to ensure that this is the case.
Finally, Amendment 22C would introduce a test of necessity for the order. I am afraid that I cannot be so conciliatory on this amendment. The explicit additional inclusion of a necessity test could in practice raise the evidential burden on the prosecution, since the requirement may be interpreted in a way that the order cannot be granted unless the court is absolutely sure it will reduce anti-social behaviour. That is not an appropriate test, since whether this is the case will not always be clear and the court should be able to take action where it considers that the order “will help” with the prevention of such behaviour. In all, I fear that this amendment could unnecessarily complicate the application process and delay the bringing of respite to victims. The Government want to make it easier to help victims. This amendment would prevent that. That is why I do not agree with it.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked a number of questions. We believe it would be possible to apply for a CBO after sentencing. We will consider this further in advance of Report and meanwhile I may well write to him with our thinking on the matter, and indeed meet him if necessary to discuss it further.
Having secured an undertaking to consider one of the three amendments in this group, my noble friend will be at least partially satisfied, I hope, and will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
Indeed, I am partially satisfied and I will not repeat the argument I made about the distinction between IPNAs and CBOs for the purpose of Amendment 22D.
I am puzzled as to why, if the Government expect the criminal standard of proof to apply and then—it is not quite the same—say that it “will” apply, they are reluctant to spell that out. It is a new offence and I would have thought that it would be better to spell it out, but there we are.
I did indeed intend to raise the evidential burden regarding Amendment 22C. For something to “help” is a very low threshold. It is rather a small objective and achievement. I hope it answers the noble Lord, Lord True, if I say that I was linking it back to Clause 21(3) because Clause 21(4) refers to “such behaviour”. That behaviour is described in Clause 21(3) as having “caused” or being,
“likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to any person”.
We are talking about a criminal order so it seems to me that it is proper for there to be a more exacting test. However, having said that, I am grateful to the Minister for the partial consideration and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, in moving this amendment I will also speak to Amendments 22H, 22J and 22K. My noble friend Lord Greaves has Amendment 22KA in this group.
On Monday, when we were discussing the relationship between provisions in the Bill and statutory nuisance, I explained that I had been asked to raise the matter by the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, of which I am vice-president. I will speak briefly to my amendments today, but I also ask the Minister whether we can discuss the matter before Report. The institute is clearly concerned about remedies such as the community protection orders and noise abatement orders being too similar for comfort. The institute talked to me about the potential for confusion and conflict and twin-tracking by different authorities and different professions. However, I assure the Minister that we are willing to contribute to the guidance around all this. We take the point that the guidance is still in draft form. We are concerned to get the legislation right, not just to rely on guidance where the legislation may in itself not be as clear as it might be.
Amendment 22NA would provide for a significant detrimental effect to trigger a community protection notice. Where there is a civil process, the de minimis principle would apply. It has been put to me that the alternative to dealing with this in legislation is for it to come out over time in case law, which would obviously have a cost implication.
Amendment 22ND would require a person in authority to assure himself that the conduct is not already subject to any other statutory control. As drafted, that person may think it appropriate as a discretion. This seems to be quite a weak protection against different agencies wasting each others’ time chasing the same end. What is most important is to avoid obstructing or contradicting action that has already been taken, such as an indefinite prohibition in an abatement notice.
Amendment 22NE would provide that no notice was served where it would be controlled under any other statute, which is again about conflict. Where the problem is noise, apportioning responsibility and sorting out a fair and effective remedy can take a lot of technical—
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am responding to this debate, so I am listening with great attention, but for a moment I thought I had lost my place. I must point out that we are discussing group 9, which starts with Amendment 22E. I believe that my noble friend is speaking to group 13, which starts with Amendment 22NA. My apologies for not intervening sooner, but I thought that I had lost my place. Perhaps she would like to speak to the earlier group.
Baroness Hamwee
My noble friend is absolutely right. I apologise to the Committee. There is such enthusiasm to move on today that I was moving too fast. I must give my noble friend an opportunity to accept or possibly reject my Amendment 22E. It would provide in Clause 21 that the court must receive evidence about suitability. There must be a proportionality element in the requirements provided in the orders. I may be told that this yet again is something that is dealt with in guidance.
Amendment 22G takes us to the duration of the orders. We are presented in the case of under-18s with a fixed period of not less than two years or an indefinite period. I suggest that there should be a limit for everyone, as there is for under-18s. The criminal behaviour order can include a lot of requirements and restraints, which could, if they go on indefinitely, have a disproportionate impact. To have something hanging over one’s head indefinitely could be a disincentive—you could give up hope of ever getting it right.
Amendment 22H would provide that reviews are not confined to under-18s, which continues more of that thought. Amendments 22J and 22K are consequential on that. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, Amendment 22KA is a modest attempt to help the Government to get their legislation correct. It refers to the review of criminal behaviour orders which has to take place under Clause 27. Clause 28(2) states:
“The chief officer, in carrying out a review under section 27, must act in cooperation with the council for the local government area in which the offender lives or appears to be living; and the council must co-operate in the carrying out of the review”.
Clause 28(4) states:
“In this section ‘local government area’ means—
(a) in relation to England, a district or London borough, the City of London, the Isle of Wight and the Isles of Scilly”.
That definition is archaic and does not apply to the local government map of England as it now stands. It misses out large tracts where there are no districts and where there are unitary counties.
There are other parts of this legislation—under IPNAs and community protection notices, for example—that get it right and refer to counties where there are no districts. They clearly have to be added. My amendment adds this so that large parts of England are simply not missed out. Since the Bill refers at the moment to districts or London boroughs, I assume that the district or lowest level is meant. Where there is a unitary authority only—a county such as Cornwall, Northumberland or various others—that needs to be added. This is in the spirit of being as helpful as possible to the Government, as I always am.
Lord Rosser
I am very interested to hear the Minister’s response on all the issues that have been raised, particularly about the duration of a criminal behaviour order. This has already been stated. For those who reach the age of 18 there is a,
“fixed period of not less than 2 years, or … an indefinite period”—
then it says in brackets—
“(so that the order has effect until further order)”.
I am not quite sure what that means. What is the further order that is envisaged? It does not say, “until further notice” but “until further order”. Perhaps the Minister will clarify what that actually means.
As far as the order being allowed to go on for an indefinite period, the Minister has been quite eloquent during the passage of the Bill, telling us all about some of the existing provisions, how they are not working and how they are not having any effect. Bearing in mind that it says in the draft guidance that the criminal behaviour order,
“is aimed at tackling the most serious and persistent offenders where their behaviour has brought them before a criminal court”,
then I suggest that if such an order has been in effect for five years but has not had any impact and has not managed to tackle the most serious and persistent offenders, it is unlikely that it will do so beyond five years.
On how long the order period should last, if the Minister is determined that the facility should be there for it to continue for longer than, say, a period of five years and to go on indefinitely, does he not think it appropriate that there is a proper review to justify the need for it to continue on the basis that one would have thought five years a reasonable time to show the effectiveness, or otherwise, of an order?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hamwee for her explanation of these amendments and for sharing her thoughts about a group yet to come. It gave those of us on the Front Bench advance notice of what she might be saying, so I thank her profusely for that.
Amendment 22E seeks to require a court to consider the proportionality, as my noble friend said, of positive requirements for including them in a criminal behaviour order. Positive requirements are of course an important element of both the criminal behaviour order and the injunction to prevent nuisance and annoyance. As currently drafted, the Bill states that the court must receive evidence about the suitability and enforceability from the person or organisation that will be supervising compliance with the requirement. Proportionality will therefore routinely be considered by a court as part of this decision.
The Bill sets out clear limitations on courts when determining whether to agree any positive requirement proposed in the application. The court must not impose any requirement that conflicts with, for example, an individual’s religious beliefs, or interferes with their work or education. Ultimately the court will have regard to an individual’s human rights—for example, Article 8 rights—when deciding to include positive elements. Such qualified rights can only be infringed where to do so is necessary and proportionate in pursuit of a legitimate aim. Proportionality, therefore, is a relevant legal consideration for the courts.
Amendment 22G, which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, focused on as well, would remove the ability of the court to grant a criminal behaviour order that lasted longer than five years. Of course, I understand the reasoning behind this. However, where the courts are dealing with the most anti-social individuals, they should have the option of imposing an order for a longer period. The courts, as I am sure all noble Lords will agree, will always consider the reasonableness and proportionality of a longer order before granting it. They will have access to relevant information about a particular case. We believe they are best placed to make a judgment about the appropriate length of an order. What is more, the offender has the ability under Clause 26 to apply to the court to vary or discharge the order at any time.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, sought clarification about the words “further order”. This refers to a further order of the court, not a further CBO.
Finally, I understand that Amendments 22H, 22J and 22K are designed to ensure that all orders are reviewed annually. As your Lordships are aware, we have ensured that this is the case for under-18s. We recognise the importance of frequent monitoring as a young person matures during the duration of an order. However, in respect of adults we have left the decision open to the relevant police force as to whether there should be such a review. In such cases where an individual is behaving in a way that is seriously anti-social, it may not be appropriate to review the case after 12 months, as this would be too soon and would simply result in an unnecessary burden on the police and courts. Again, we wish to make sure that such decisions are made by those on the front line who are best placed to assess each individual case.
Lord Greaves
I am grateful for the Minister’s comments, but in order to save time on Report why does he not just accept the amendment now?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
With all things legalistic and legislative, my noble friend will agree with me that it is important, as he himself stated, to get it right. Let me assure him that we will certainly take into account his insight and expertise in ensuring that in our drafting we correct any omission, if indeed that is the case.
I hope, based on the explanations I have given, that my noble friend will be minded to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I apologise again to the Committee for getting so confused over these amendments. I say to my noble friend Lord Greaves that he knows precisely why an amendment is not accepted now—because they never are, are they?
I remain troubled about the issues that I have raised. Proportionality seems to be more than a matter of human rights in the technical way in which we sometimes refer to them. An indefinite order period over five years is a very harsh response. As I understand it, there is no statutory requirement for review in the case of over-18s. There is a page, thereabouts, of provisions for reviews in the case of under-18s, but for the over-18s it is left to everyone’s good sense.
As I say, I remain troubled, but let us see where we might go when the little bits of this which will be further considered have been considered. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Listowel)
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 22KB in the name of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, I shall speak to Amendments 22KC, 22NZA and 22NZB. My noble friend apologises to the Committee for his absence. He has a long-standing commitment and asked that I might present his case for him. There seems to have been a little confusion. His amendments were tabled late in the day and I, also late in the day, called for a clause stand part debate. I do not think that I will need to call for a clause stand part debate, given the useful amendments tabled by my noble friend. The amendments deal with Clause 29, on the breach of orders, and Clause 37, on offences. They would take minors out of both those clauses.
As an aside, several of my colleagues who would be interested in our debate are involved in the Children and Families Bill, as am I, and there has been confusion about the timing of that Bill, which may have been an obstruction to colleagues interested in the area of children to come to discuss this Bill. If the Minister has not agreed to this already, perhaps there may be an opportunity to meet with him and officials to discuss how this Bill affects children with those Peers who are particularly interested in the welfare of children.
Over the past few years, there has been a welcome reduction in the number of children in custody, as a result of the recognition by Her Majesty’s coalition Government that imprisonment is not an effective way to deal with children’s offending behaviour. As your Lordships will be aware, the new police dispersal power to tackle anti-social behaviour is introduced by the Bill. Children who breach the order and are convicted of failing to comply with the police dispersal order are to face a fine and/or up to three months in prison. I suggest that those sanctions are disproportionate, counterproductive, incompatible with children’s rights and risk reversing the positive downward trend seen in children’s custody numbers.
As a bit of background, currently, nearly seven in 10 children breach their anti-social behaviour orders. That is typically due to a lack of support, rather than wilful non-compliance. It is a much higher breach rate than for adults. Imprisonment is imposed as a sanction for juvenile ASBO breaches in 38% of cases, with an average sentence of just over seven months.
The purpose of the amendment is to remove imprisonment as a sanction for children when they fail to comply with a dispersal order. The amendments replace imprisonment with robust community alternatives. I have mentioned several times my concern about the guilt that many of those young people will carry with them. They will feel responsible for the failures in the family. I have spoken to young men who have made it their job to be at home when their father has returned home from the pub so that they can stand between their mother and their father at the time. I have already spoken about those boys who grow up without a father in the home. Of course, there are young men who are beaten by their father on a regular basis. Those young men feel responsible for having to stand up to their father and protect their mother, for being beaten by their father or for having their father absent from the home.
My wide experience of this is that children do not think rationally in those times. They tend to think that they are responsible for those failures. Being too harshly punitive of young children may be counterproductive. I spoke recently to a lawyer with several years of experience of working as a defence lawyer for such children. To get them prepared to stand up in the witness box and give a reasonable case, he would say to a child, “Look, Richard, I know that there is good in you. My partner, Margaret, knows that there is good in you. You can make the choice. You can do the good, the right thing or you can choose not to”. By speaking in those terms to the child, he gets the best from them.
My concern is that if we are overly harsh, if we imprison children, if we punish them too severely, they will be confirmed in their belief that they are bad to the bone, that they are responsible for all the bad things in their life and will go on to be a nuisance to society and cost society a large amount of money when they are later imprisoned. A further problem, to which I just alluded, is that once children get involved in the prison system, there are much more likely to get involved with it again. They will be returnees. I look to the Minister for some reassurance in his response.
Baroness Hamwee
The noble Earl has raised extremely important points, and I do not want to repeat arguments that I made on my earlier amendment about publicity, which also apply here. It is not only the noble Earl, who has massive experience, who makes these points. As I said earlier, so many organisations which have practical experience and great success in diverting children at risk of going down the route of a criminal career back to a better road, have suggested that such amendments should be made. We should take that extremely seriously.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, I support these amendments wholeheartedly. We are talking about punishment. Punishment must, as a fundamental, be appropriate, proportionate and likely to succeed. I suggest that the provisions have none of those things right. It is entirely wrong to have a sanction which involves the potential imprisonment, which is the ultimate sanction for breach of a CBO, of children between the ages of 12 and 18. A detention and training order, which is a possible likely outcome, can be given to such children for breach for a minimum of four months and a theoretical maximum of 24 months, half of which would in fact be intervention, supervision and the rest.
Children who fail to comply with a police dispersal order can also get up to three months. We are looking at a whole range of options to incarcerate young people. It has already been referred to tonight that children routinely breach ASBOs—about two-thirds of them do. Once they get into the world of breach, we are in very dangerous territory. All the successful work that we have seen and in which I have been closely involved with the Youth Justice Board has been to avoid the incarceration of children. This is simply because it does not succeed; the noble Earl has indicated why. In all cases, incarceration should be for the most dangerous, severe and violent behaviour. Those are the kinds of criteria that we should apply to anybody going to prison. In other words, the criteria apply to adults, too, but how much more do they apply to children?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made some interesting and useful points. We sympathise with the comments that he made and with these amendments. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, I do not want to repeat the comments made in the earlier debate on the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. However, I asked questions in that debate that the Minister did not answer, and similar questions apply in this debate.
The Minister will recall that I asked about the evidence base for the proposals brought forth by the Government. In that case, it was about what assessment had been undertaken to evaluate the safeguarding of the risk to children. He was not able to reply then and I am happy for him to write to me. The same questions apply here. They concern the evidence base on which the Government are bringing forward these clauses. A number of children’s and young people’s charities have contacted Members of your Lordships’ House with concerns about whether, in the clauses we are debating and in our previous debate, the breach of civil orders is against the rights of children and whether it would do more harm than good.
As I said then, I hoped that the Government have an evidence base on which they are bringing forward these amendments, but the Minister was not able to answer. I hope that he can on this occasion. One part of my question is about consultation around these proposals and the previous provisions. The second part of it is on the assessment that is undertaken to evaluate, in the previous case, the risk and, in this case, the effect of the Government’s proposals. Are the Government prepared to have a review period in both cases to see whether they have been effective and what changes should be made?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for picking up the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and presenting them in the way that he has. In replying, I am very happy to have a meeting with those Peers who are interested in the impact of the Bill and its provisions in general on young people. That would be useful. We have had some productive debates on the issue here in Committee. I hope that I have been and am able today to show that we see our role in seeking to prevent anti-social behaviour as one that tackles the difficulties that some young people have, and in rehabilitating and supporting them.
This brings us back to whether it is right for young people to face the full range of criminal sanctions when they act in a way that is seriously anti-social: I emphasise “seriously”. I understand the points that have been made by all noble Lords who have spoken: the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lady Linklater, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. They have all expressed the importance of rehabilitation, especially in cases concerning young people. That is why it is so important that the injunction under Part 1 and the criminal behaviour order that we are discussing here can include positive requirements to help them turn their lives around.
Youth rehabilitation orders are often a fair and proportionate way to deal with a young person who has been convicted of an offence as an alternative to custody. Use of such orders is in line with the intentions of the Bill: that informal interventions and rehabilitative approaches should be used first and foremost, in particular, when dealing with young people. However, it is right that tough sanctions are available on breach.
Amendments 22KB and 22KC seek to restrict the sanctions on breach of a criminal behaviour order for under-18s so that a youth rehabilitation order must be made. Breach of a criminal behaviour order is an offence. There is no danger of this criminalising someone for the first time because an order can be made only once they have been convicted of a criminal offence. It is worth remembering that the criminal behaviour order is aimed at tackling the most serious offenders, and that by the time that it is breached an offender may already have failed to respond to positive requirements aimed at addressing the underlying cause of their anti-social behaviour. They may also already have had a youth rehabilitation order made in respect of their offending. We would expect the youth courts to do all they can to ensure their rehabilitation when considering the sanction for a breach. This may well be a rehabilitation order but it is right that they have the discretion to impose the most appropriate penalty in a given case, including a fine or, in the most serious cases, custody.
On the dispersal power, there needs to be an effective and serious consequence to breaching a dispersal order which is imposed by a police officer. Clause 37 provides the option to apply a fine or a prison sentence of up to three months. We expect the court to use these sentences appropriately and proportionately in accordance with sentencing guidelines. The three-month sentence is the maximum sentence available to the court and it may impose a lower sentence if appropriate, including a youth rehabilitation order if the offender is under 18. However, there may well be some young people for whom a fine or even detention is appropriate, and I would not wish to tie the hands of the youth courts which, after all, will have access to all the evidence and will be best placed to make a decision in individual cases.
I hope I have been able to reassure the noble Earl that the sanctions available on breach of the CBO and the dispersal power will help the courts. From the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, one could be forgiven for thinking that breach of an ASBO was not an offence subject to a maximum penalty of five years’ imprisonment, which is what the previous Government legislated for. This sanction applies to the ASBO and the sanction of imprisonment applies to young people as it does to adults. Like the previous Administration, we believe that tough remedies should be applied on breach where it is appropriate. It is for the courts to test what is appropriate, and the test for the CBO is analogous to that for the ASBO, as the noble Baroness would expect.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his careful reply. I hear what he says and will take it away and consider it. I am concerned about looked-after children, who have often been so badly failed by their family. While the state is improving in its job as a corporate parent and the Government are doing good work in improving the consistency and quality of social workers, still so often the young people I meet are let down left, right and centre by the state itself by having too many different social workers and not being properly cared for in their residential care.
I am concerned that young people who will be caught by these measures will be troubling, but often very troubled themselves. They can be such a nuisance and so difficult to deal with that the risk is of a kind of unintentional ratcheting up of the response by the state until these terribly troubling—and terribly troubled—young people, who have often been very poorly treated in their own home, get punished by the state because their parents were not good enough for them. It falls to us to try to be as careful as possible to get a positive influence and impact on their lives.
For instance, in a children’s home, one might find that if a child is acting out in an aggressive and unhelpful way and if you have poorly trained staff, in the worst instances they will hit back at a child. They simply will not know how to respond. In the best establishments, one finds that the staff are really well supported and very thoughtful. They get in there really early on, before the child starts acting out, and prevent the escalation to where the police are called and the child gets reported and put into the criminal justice arena. I am being a bit longwinded here. It is so easy for Governments to ratchet up their response to these children because they are so difficult. One does not want to see a return to the past where we had the highest rate of juvenile imprisonment in Europe, which was a shame on this nation.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Perhaps I might intervene to reassure the noble Earl that what we are seeking to do with the Bill is to get early intervention of the type he is suggesting. When we are talking about CBOs, we are talking about people who have been convicted of a criminal offence. Our task must surely be to try to avoid people getting to that stage. That is why we are looking to build in early intervention and, even when criminality has occurred, to look at methods of rehabilitation as a vehicle whereby we can address the issues, which I agree are extremely sensitive, in the way that the noble Earl suggests. I hope that he does not mind me interrupting him.
The Earl of Listowel
I thank the Minister for his response. I need to look very carefully at what the Government are doing here and the nuanced way that they are trying to approach this. I hope I can be comforted by that. I am most grateful to the Minister for agreeing to have a meeting at some point with those Peers who are particularly interested in this area. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee
I shall speak also to Amendment 22N. Amendment 22L would add the term “proportionate” to the period during which a dispersal order would apply so that the use of the power is both necessary and proportionate. When this matter was discussed in the Public Bill Committee in the Commons, the Minister said that he was confident that the powers will not be used disproportionately and referred to the need for authorisation by an officer of at least the rank of inspector. My amendment would insert a degree of objectivity into the clause. This is not intended to be critical of police officers, but if the power is intended always to be used proportionately, should that not be spelled out and be capable of being challenged?
My second amendment, Amendment 22N, would provide that the authorisation must clearly identify the locality in question. That is a matter of clarity, but rereading the clause over the past few minutes, it strikes me that the term “locality” could be understood in different ways in Clause 32(1), which is the specified locality to which the order will apply, and Clause 32(2)(a), where we are directed to reducing the likelihood of members of the public in the locality being harassed, alarmed or distressed. In the second case, the normal meaning of “in the locality” would be in and around the area, not in the specified locality referred to in Clause 32(1). I have only just thought about this. Reading things again, they sometimes read slightly differently. I do not know whether the Minister can assist me on that.
The amendment relating to proportionality was raised in the context of concern about peaceful assembly. I think we will come to that later, but I shall just say that I, too, am concerned that we should do nothing in the Bill to prevent peaceful assembly when people in a proper manner exercise their democratic rights as citizens. I beg to move.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 22M in the name of my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, which would insert into the Bill the words,
“and once the relevant local authority has been consulted”.
I do so on two main grounds. One is to revert to a topic that we discussed in Committee on Monday, which concerned the importance of the powers in the Bill being exercised as part of a wider pattern and a wider agreement with local government and other interested parties. That is a general principle that we should not move away from. However, the main issue is that this is clearly a power that relates to a specific locality. It might relate to, for example, aggressive begging in a particular park, square or precinct. Therefore, you would expect the local authority or the custodian of the public space concerned to have very clear responsibilities and interests. There may well be community implications. There may well be a need to listen to what the local authority may feel will be the community impact of such an action or, indeed, to consider the local authority’s view on whether the community benefits from such an action.
I understand that the local authority should be the custodian of those public spaces and that these are the circumstances in which this power may be used so it is appropriate that it be involved. I understand that the parallel of this power, the old anti-social behaviour order regime, did involve consultation with the local authorities concerned, yet the Government have specifically excluded it in this Bill. I would be interested to know a little more about the rationale behind why this has happened in this particular case as this seems to me an obvious area where you would expect there to be consultation with local authorities.
If the argument is that local authorities have been slow in responding to consultation and that this has led to a continued problem, I would be surprised because local authorities usually are well aware of concerns that are being expressed by local communities about a problem in a particular area. If that is the case, I suspect there are some faults on the side of the local authority. These could be remedied by some expectation of what the normal period is within which the local authority should respond when asked for its views on these matters. However, I think there is an extraordinary weakness in the way that these powers could be pursued. The way in which the legislation is framed, this is a quite a broad power. The authorisation could come from a police officer and would proceed solely on the basis of the authorisation of a police inspector. This is not something that would have necessarily gone to court, although obviously it relates to people about whom there are clearly concerns.
I would like to know why it is not felt to be appropriate in these circumstances for the local authority to be consulted. If the argument is that there have been unconscionable delays associated with that, can the Minister give us some examples of where they have occurred, and can the Minister say why it would not be possible to build in to the legislation something which required a specific time period for the local authority to respond when such a power is being considered?
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 22M and also comment on whether Clause 32 should stand part of the Bill. I will make a very similar point to that made by my noble friend Lord Harris. We do not have an issue with the principle of dispersal powers. In fact, we introduced such powers back in 2004, although I recognise that they were pretty controversial at that time. Our worry is that the new power now being proposed by the Government can be authorised much more easily than the existing one and also for longer. The issue we are raising is that of proper and effective democratic oversight. Local authorities must and should be consulted by the police before the issuing of dispersal orders. That is the process that currently exists.
What I find curious is that the Home Affairs Committee, in its pre-legislative scrutiny, recommended that there should be a duty to consult local authorities on applications for dispersal powers of more than six hours. The Government’s response to that comment by the Home Affairs Select Committee in the other place was that they would ensure that the legislation allowed for that. In fact, it does not. It would appear that the commitment that the Government gave in their response to the Home Affairs Select Committee has not been brought forward in the Bill—unless it is in the pile of amendments that were issued very late last night for debate today, but I do not see them grouped here at the moment. Unless an amendment is coming forward from the Government, can the Minister explain why a response was made to the Home Affairs Select Committee to do something that does not appear to be in the Bill now?
When evidence sessions were held during the Committee stage of the Bill in the other place, there was no suggestion that the existing power was not working properly. The police have also said that working with the local authority really helps them get community consensus and support when a dispersal order is needed. That is why we consider Amendment 22M to be so important. Why fix something that is not broken? If there is an issue, why try to change the process? If the Minister can tell me that he and the Government have received representations from organisations or individuals that suggest that the current provisions are inflexible and inadequate, that would help to explain why the Government have made such changes. If he can tell us who those organisations or individuals were, what changes they sought and for what reasons, that would perhaps help to explain why a power has now been proposed that is different from the existing one.
I was reading through the debate in Committee in the other place. Damian Green, as the Minister, said then that the powers were designed,
“to allow police officers to react to a dynamic situation”.—[Official Report, Commons, Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill Committee, 27/6/13; col. 240.]
Have there been complaints that there has not been a response, as the Minister would like? If that is the case, there is a concern that this could lead to the powers being used recklessly and in inappropriate circumstances if there is not that check. Can the Minister say on how many occasions there has been a situation where a community has been at threat or in danger because the local authority could not be consulted about a dispersal power over the week and the power then could not be used? Have there been such cases that have led the Government to bringing forward a very different kind of procedure now?
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and my noble friend Lord Harris raised the question of locality. There is concern that the meaning of “locality” is not quite clear or is wider than necessary. If the Minister can address that, it would be helpful.
Lord Greaves (LD)
The noble Baroness was not in the House when we dealt at some length with the question of what “locality” means, specifically in relation to town greens and village greens in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act when it went through this House rather a long time ago—about 13 years ago—and the Commons Act more recently. The courts had got themselves into terrible difficulties about the definition of “locality”, about whether localities and neighbourhoods are the same thing and about the question of neighbourhoods within localities. There was a lot of abstruse discussion and debate and I am not sure that we actually clarified the matter. The important thing is that locality is not the same as location. A location is a specific place on the surface of the Earth. A locality, however you define it, is wider in some respect or other.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
Having listened to the noble Lord, I am sorry that I missed that debate. However, I get his point about locality and location; I just seek further clarification on how that can be dealt with.
I have a couple of other points. The 48 hours that the Government propose for these dispersal orders are twice the period in the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003. I understand that the only other legislation that permits dispersal powers in this way is the Violent Crime Reduction Act. I would understand why a longer timescale would be used in connection with violent crime. However, we are not talking about violent crime but about anti-social behaviour. There must be some evidence base for why the Government think that 48 hours rather than 24 hours is appropriate.
It would be helpful if the Minister could talk us through “Directions excluding a person from an area”. I have had conversations with those who could be practitioners in this area of legislation, and some of them seem to be slightly confused by how it will work. It is quite clear how the current process works, but how will such a direction to exclude an individual or group of individuals from an area work? If they are to be excluded from a locality for 48 hours, does somebody draw a handwritten map—“This is the area that you’re going to be excluded from”—to make clear where it is? Who else should be notified? Forty-eight hours is quite a long time. If there has been no local authority consultation and it has all been done very quickly, how do the person and other authorities know that they are to be excluded for 48 hours? If the direction is to be withdrawn or varied, how will they and others be notified? This lack of involvement and consultation with the local authority gives rise to a number of practical questions. I would be grateful if the noble Lord would on this occasion be able to answer my questions—which he has not, so far, been able to do on any other occasion, although I am getting used to it—and talk us through the process.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I might have preferred to be participating in the passage of the CRoW Act, although it seems to have been a merciful release that I was not here to be involved in those debates. This is the first time we have had a chance to talk about dispersal orders, so it would be useful to give the background of what we want to achieve by them and try to answer the questions that noble Lords have asked me.
The new dispersal power will allow the police to deal quickly—I emphasise that word—with anti-social behaviour centred on a particular locality, nipping such behaviour in the bud before it escalates and providing immediate respite to the victims of the anti-social behaviour that is the cause of the difficulty. The new power combines the best elements of the current legislation into a single, more effective and less bureaucratic tool. When I come on to the business of liaison with local authorities, I think that the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will see what I mean by that.
The current process can be very slow, and as a result victims and communities can suffer for a number of months before the police can act. Part of the problem is that the existing dispersal power can be used only once a dispersal zone is in place, and a zone can be designated only following consultation with the local council. The new power will not require prior consultation, so it can be used more quickly. However, we recognise that there should be some supervision of the new power, and in this respect the provision has benefited from scrutiny by both the Home Affairs Select Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Responding to points made by the HASC, we have included the safeguard that the dispersal power must be authorised by an officer of at least the rank of inspector. The authorisation may be given if the officer is satisfied on reasonable grounds that use of the dispersal power may be necessary in a specified locality during the specified 48-hour period.
The requirement for the officer to be satisfied “on reasonable grounds” was included on the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. We had intended it to be part of the test when the Bill was introduced, and we believed it to be implicit. However, in this instance we agreed with the committee that it would be clearer to have that explicit in the Bill. I am grateful to the committee for drawing this to our attention. The addition of “reasonable grounds” further emphasises that the test for authorising use of the power is objective.
On Amendment 22L, tabled by my noble friend Lady Hamwee, the two elements of the test will mean that officers consider whether use of the dispersal power is a proportionate response to the problem at the particular time and locality. As a public authority, the police must also exercise their powers proportionately under general public law principles and human rights obligations. It is not, therefore, necessary to include “proportionate” in the Bill. I am firmly of the view that the safeguards in the legislation will ensure that the dispersal power is used appropriately, based on local knowledge of the area and on intelligence that there are likely to be problems at a specific time.
I return to the question of locality. My noble friend has put forward Amendment 22N to ensure that an authorisation clearly identifies the locality where the dispersal power can be used. The authorisation for the use of the power must be given in writing, must be signed by the officer giving it, and must specify the grounds on which it is given. These grounds must include the specified locality and time period for which the authorisation applies. My noble friend’s amendment is therefore provided for in Clause 32(1), which states that the time and location for which the dispersal may be used are as specified in the authorisation. Perhaps I can elaborate on that.
Clause 32(1) and (2) are concerned with this authorisation process, so the intention is that the reference to locality in both subsections has the same meaning; i.e. they cover the same geographical area to be specified in the authorisation. As drafted, the Bill makes this clear. The new dispersal power will allow the police to respond swiftly and flexibly. For example, on a particular housing estate where there is likely to be anti-social behaviour at the weekend, an inspector could pre-approve use of the new power by his or her officers. Alternatively, if an incident occurred at a different time of the week when it had not been anticipated, a police officer could contact an inspector for authorisation to use the dispersal in that specific instance.
Amendment 22M, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, raises an important issue for the Local Government Association regarding consultation with local authorities. As noble Lords know, I have had meetings with the Local Government Association Safer Communities Board. The association has expressed some concern about the impact of these dispersal powers on community relations and has therefore argued for them to be subject to democratic oversight. I understand this point, but to require consultation would seriously undermine the flexibility and utility of the power and would reinstate precisely the difficulties we seek to remove from the current system.
However, the draft guidance states that the authorising officer may wish, where practical, to consult with the local council or community representatives before making the authorisation, in particular where there are concerns about community relations and the use of the dispersal in a particular area. Therefore, for example, when planning the policing of a football match, the police might decide to authorise use of the dispersal in the area surrounding the stadium. It is likely that the police already work with the local authority in planning this kind of event, and this would include a discussion on the use of powers in such a dispersal.
This issue was raised when I met with the Local Government Association recently. I agreed to include in the guidance that it is good practice for the police to inform the local authority after the dispersal authorisation is used. This will help the local authority work with the police to plan longer-term solutions in areas where there are persistent problems. I remind your Lordships that the Government have published this guidance in draft to assist with scrutiny of the provisions.
I agree that accountability is important, and Police and Crime Commissioners now have a vital role in holding forces to account on behalf of the public. Police forces will be required to keep records of the use of the dispersal power and, while there is no duty to do so, they may wish to publish data in the interests of transparency. Police forces can share data about the use of the dispersal power with councils to assist in their crime prevention planning, and plan longer-term solutions to hot-spot areas. The draft guidance that accompanies the legislation emphasises the importance of involving the community in taking a problem-solving approach in areas with persistent problems. Clearly, this would be a case in which we would expect police forces and local authorities to work closely together.
The current Section 30 dispersal power has worked well in some areas to deal with longer-term issues. Those powers are led by the police with local authority consultation. We have acknowledged the important role that local authorities have played in this and have designed the new public spaces protection order to be used in much the same way by local authorities to deal with persistent, long-term problems.
I will deal with some particular questions asked by the noble Baroness. On the question of dispersal orders, she thought that people might be confused about what is actually involved in being dispersed. Much of the new power is available to the police now, but guidance will share good practice on how the dispersal orders should be used. In most cases, the officer will provide this information in writing and, in many forces, officers actually provide a map for the person given the dispersal order to show them the area from which they are excluded.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I do not want to disrupt the Minister as he answers other noble Lords’ questions, and I am grateful to him for answering one of the questions that I raised. I just wondered whether he is going to come to the other questions I asked, about the representations he received that the current process was inflexible, and what examples he had of those. I also asked why the Government have not abided by their response to the Home Affairs Select Committee, as they committed themselves to do.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I have given the noble Baroness the information I have on our response to the Home Affairs Select Committee. I can give her no more information than I have given her already on the representations that were made. However, if the noble Baroness will permit it, I will write to her on the subject. It might be useful that I exchange the information with her. Of course, I will include any other Peers who have spoken on this group of amendments.
Lord Harris of Haringey
While the Minister’s flow has been disrupted, perhaps I could disrupt it a little bit further. Can he explain a little bit more how the Government envisage that this will work? The more I have heard about this, the more concerned I have become. Suppose, for example, there is a fairground in an area. It may be a visiting fair. During the previous evening, there were some problems with youths fighting and so on. Does that mean that an inspector could issue an authorisation or exclusion from people carrying out certain sorts of behaviour during the following day?
I think I am also right in saying that Clause 38 would permit—if the right authorisation has been given—a police community support officer, rather than a warranted officer, to carry out the exclusions concerned. What would then happen, if I am right, is that an area would be defined and police officers and police community support officers would be deployed with maps in their pockets to give to people whom they thought—in their opinion—were causing disruption or bad behaviour, and those people would then be required to leave the area shown on the map which they would be given from the back pocket of the police constable or the police community support officer.
That would then be a power for which there would be no accountability other than the authorisation by a police officer of the rank of inspector. This is one of the federated ranks—not even superintendent—so in many ways it would be a comparatively low-level authorisation. There would be no requirement to consult. It was said that it would be good practice to inform the local authority; but I think I heard the Minister say that this would be after the event, rather than before.
This could have an enormous impact on community relations. I can think of parts of London where the sudden arrival of police officers clutching maps and saying, “We are going to exclude you from this area for 48 hours”, would cause serious problems and disruption. Even if it were a proportionate response to the problem that had occurred the previous evening, it seems that this is something that should be exercised with proper consultation with the community representatives concerned. I have ended up being more disturbed by these provisions in the Bill following the Minister’s very careful and helpful explanation than I was beforehand. It would obviously have been better had he not tried to explain it to us.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That is not my practice; I try to be open with the Committee about what these proposals entail and what they mean. Perhaps I have not emphasised that the whole Bill is built on good working relations between the police and local authorities. That is the whole purpose behind so much of this legislation. The reason why prior consultation has been eliminated is not because of the situation where the fairground had trouble the night before and it has been decided to put in place a dispersal order to deal with the problem the following evening, because clearly that would be a case where the authorities would talk together about how to deal with the problem. The situation we are dealing with is where there is disorder in an area at that time and where consultation with a local authority would impede a prompt response to that situation, and prompt dispersal.
Lord Harris of Haringey
That is even more disturbing because it implies that if, at 11 am, there is a concern that there is about to be disorder, that is the point at which an inspector could authorise police officers. It is always difficult to see how they are going to have the maps in their pockets to serve to people if they are dealing with a situation of that degree of urgency. I just think that what we are being told describes a series of situations where you really wonder how this is going to work in practice. The danger is that a misjudgment —and I am sure it would not be common—made by an officer of the rank of inspector could cause really serious community disruption. I can envisage circumstances where this would happen and this would provoke riotous behaviour in a wide area far worse than the disorder that was originally expected.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord is concerned about the rank of inspector, but of course operationally, inspectors are the rank that has local knowledge and information. That is one of the key elements of this legislation; we are talking about locality here, and that is one of the main reasons why the rank of inspector was included in the Bill, in response to the Home Affairs Committee’s legislative scrutiny. I should emphasise that these powers already exist, and the way in which they are being used in this Bill comes as no surprise to the police nor to local authorities. The powers are used on a regular basis; they are familiar with the issues raised by the noble Lord, and the PCCs are in a position where they provide democratic accountability on the use of these powers.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I appreciate that lots of noble Lords are present for the next debate and I am sorry that this is holding them up. The way in which the legislation is framed—and I cannot immediately see how it could be done in a different way—does not necessarily mean that the inspector who authorises it is the one with knowledge of that particular community or locality. I use the word “locality” to make sure that I get it exactly right for the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. The provisions simply say, “an inspector”. I can conceive of circumstances in which a police force might decide to have an expert at the rank of inspector who will deal with dispersal orders for the whole force, who would then not have the local knowledge or input, which local councillors or neighbourhood officers might have, about the likely community reaction under those circumstances. There are some serious issues here which I hope the Minister will take away and consider.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Of course, I will consider all matters raised in this debate—I am happy to do so. We want to try to make sure that this works. But I have emphasised to the noble Lord the role of local authorities, the inspector and the police on the ground; it is all a matter of responding to a situation and having a vehicle available that harnesses powers to disperse that already exist to effectively handle that situation.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think that I must respond to points made by other noble Lords—
Lord Harris of Haringey
If the Minister will forgive me, what he is saying is that all those different bodies will of course be working together. But that will be in the absence of an overarching plan in which the local authorities must necessarily engage—we debated that on Monday night. And it is in the absence of the specific power that used to exist whereby a local authority had to be consulted before the powers were used. That is not a recipe for saying that there will automatically be that degree of co-ordination and working together. That is the ideal, and I am sure that it is what everyone will strive to achieve, but we are talking now about things that will almost be happening in the heat of the moment, and I question how, in the heat of the moment, it will be possible to have a map that will clearly define the locality from which individuals are being excluded.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the noble Lord is forgetting that anti-social behaviour is a concern for all public authorities, whether they are police and crime commissioners, who place it pretty high up their list of priorities, or local government and elected councillors or serving police officers. All those authorities place anti-social behaviour high up their list; they are not going to be negligent about dealing with the practical application of those powers. There will be pre-discussions between those authorities on the way in which all those powers are used.
We do not need in this Bill to tell people what to do or where their duty lies; they are quite capable of fathoming it out for themselves. We need to explain to them what power they have and the methodology whereby that power can be legitimately exercised. We are doing that in this Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will understand exactly the point the Government are coming from in this legislation. If I may say so, he has a mischievous side to his nature, and I think that he is seeking to make difficulties for the legitimate aspirations of people in authority, in local government and the police, who will clearly make sure that these powers are used effectively in the interests of preventing anti-social behaviour. That is why I am so resilient in resisting his temptations on these things.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I will reflect on what the noble Lord says, but I was about to address the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, some time ago.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am not being mischievous. Like the Minister, I want to make sure that these powers are effective. I also do not want to see unnecessary disorder caused because of their misapplication. That is why I am raising these issues. I actually made a self-denying ordinance that I was not going to intervene on the Minister again. However, his suggestion that I am doing this mischievously rather than because I am concerned about it led me to do so.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I accept the noble Lord’s explanation, but perhaps I can turn to the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.
The noble Baroness asked about how we undertook in the draft Bill to provide the consultation with local authorities; we did not do that in the draft Bill. I have made it clear that I would expect police and local authorities to work closely together in the exercise of all anti-social behaviour powers under the provisions in the Bill. We believe that this clause and the dispersal power that arises from it are useful. The current Section 30 dispersal power has worked well in dealing with longer-term issues. Those powers are held by the police with local authority consultation. We have acknowledged the important role that local authorities have played in this and have designed the public spaces protection order to be used in much the same way by local authorities to deal with persistent, long-term problems. The arrangements set out in Clause 32 balance the need for safeguards with the flexibility vital to dealing with a wide range of anti-social behaviour. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I do not think that I should prolong this debate, and I shall keep until after today the questions that have occurred to me during the course of this debate.
My noble friend Lord Greaves has a much better memory than I have and has reminded us of the distinction between locality and location, as identified in previous legislation. I could not help but notice that my noble friend the Minister, in talking about Clause 32(1), used the term “location”, so I think we may need to be absolutely clear about that. But that can wait until after today.
I will say to both Front-Bench speakers who were sorry to have missed the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill proceedings that we dealt with an awful lot of it at unearthly hours of the morning and right through the night. On one occasion, breakfast was provided for the House, except for those who were stuck in the Chamber dealing with the Bill. So the noble Baroness may be a bit less sorry that she missed it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Animal Welfare: Cats and Dogs
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Black of Brentwood
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions they are taking to improve the welfare of cats and dogs in the United Kingdom.
Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)
My Lords, I am privileged to open this debate and indebted to all noble Lords, both mischievous and not mischievous, who are taking part. I am extremely pleased to see my noble friend Lord De Mauley on the Front Bench. Since his appointment at Defra, he has proved to be a redoubtable champion of our feline and canine friends and I look forward greatly to his response.
According to the Library, this House has not held a debate on the welfare of cats and dogs for over 20 years. It is good to have the chance to put this glaring omission right. I declare my interest as a cat owner. The indomitable Victoria is at home—with her sister Alexandra there in spirit—making sure I am on message. She will, no doubt, keep me up all night if I stray.
This is not a peripheral policy issue. It is estimated that 13 million households—45% of the total—have at least one pet, including between them over 17 million cats and dogs. The vast majority of owners are responsible families who love their pets and want to see all pets treated with the same affection. We are a nation of animal lovers and are all the better for it—as President Lincoln, who is much on our minds this week, nobly put it:
“I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being”.
Faithful cats and dogs, which are present throughout life’s journey—from the time children are taught to care for animals, to the companionship that pets give those in their final days—are the key to that “whole human being” and their role is growing in importance. More people live alone and live longer, often in isolation. Family structures are changing and, for many, pets fill the gap. They contribute to good health, reduce blood pressure, and teach the young about the values of a civilised society. They are central to the lives of many families. That is why this debate is important.
Today we face a crisis in animal welfare, as charities struggle to cope with a tide of unwanted pets, or pets that families can no longer afford to keep. Blue Cross has reported a 40% increase in abandoned pets since 2010, while the Cats Protection helpline receives four calls asking them to take a cat in for every one seeking adoption. The reason is simple: there are too many pets, and not enough good homes where families understand a pet’s welfare needs and can afford the cost of looking after them. Policy needs to change and I want to highlight four areas—breeding and sale, microchipping, companion animals and anti-social behaviour—where we can take action to improve the welfare of those who give their love unconditionally.
I will deal first with breeding and sale. Seven years ago, the Animal Welfare Act was put on the statute book. It was landmark legislation, and I pay tribute to the Labour Government who put it there. However, the legislation has not fulfilled its ambitions because many of the regulations promised under the Act have never materialised. One key example is the Pet Animals Act 1951, which protects the welfare of cats and dogs sold as pets. It became law when people bought animals from a pet shop. However, more than 60 years on people now buy pets online, which has created a whole range of problems with back-street breeders churning out kittens and puppies in an unregulated way. Too many loving pets are subjected to repeated breeding for sale online. There is some protection for dogs under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act, although this needs amending to reduce the number of legal litters from five to two, but there is no equivalent protection for cats, which often get overlooked in legislation.
I welcome the Government's support for the Pet Advertising Advisory Group which aims to make online pet ads more responsible. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, has played an important role in that, but it is only a start. The promised regulations under the Animal Welfare Act need to be brought forward; there needs to be a review of “hobby breeders” of kittens and puppies; and the work of animal charities in encouraging neutering needs support. When you consider that one unneutered female cat can be responsible for 20,000 descendants in just five years, you understand how central this issue is. The role of animal charities is vital here but a government-backed national neutering day might be an admirable way to support their tremendous work.
Secondly, microchipping is critical to the welfare of animals because it allows strays to be reunited with their owners. At present only 33% of dogs and a woeful 10% of cats arriving at Battersea are chipped. Cats Protection had to chip 86% of the cats it re-homed last year. This causes huge pressure on charities, which often have to re-home strays unnecessarily. It is good news that microchipping is to be compulsory for all dogs in England from 2016. However, what about the cats? Arguably it is even more important for them as so many of them roam freely and are out at night. Without making microchipping of cats compulsory, Defra could strengthen advice under the cat code, and if breeding was more tightly regulated, as I suggested, breeders could be obliged to microchip kittens before sale.
The third issue is companion animals, which I raised in Committee on the Care Bill, when I pointed out the huge role that cats and dogs play in the care of the elderly and the sick. My noble friend Lord Howe was encouraging in his response at that time and I hope the Government will ensure that guidance on the implementation of the legislation makes it crystal clear that the needs of individuals’ beloved pets, and the wishes of those individuals—who may often be very vulnerable or old—to keep them if taken into a care home, are included in individual care assessments.
Finally, I turn to anti-social behaviour and attacks by dogs on vulnerable, often elderly, cats. I know and hear of far too many distressing incidents where cats are set upon and killed by dogs. Cats Protection has logged 88 reported attacks this year so far, 89% of them fatal. These incidents—I was going to read out some of them but they are actually too distressing—can have a devastating impact on the lives of those who see a beloved cat killed in this way. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, set out the issue extremely well in his speech at Second Reading of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill and I endorse everything he had to say. I ask the Government to reconsider whether bespoke dog control notices to prevent attacks on protected animals are needed under the legislation, and to look at guidance to be issued under the Bill to ensure such appalling attacks are prevented.
These are the most crucial policy areas that need tackling and there are others I do not have time to address, including the important issue of updating the licensing regime for catteries and kennels and the role of animal welfare in the national primary curriculum. I know the Minister appreciates the breadth of these issues and I am delighted that Defra has established a canine and feline steering group to co-ordinate activity. Could the Minister ask that group to review the way existing legislation and regulation is working and to identify areas where out-of-date legislation needs overhauling or new regulations need bringing forward? Might it also be tasked with considering how future legislation impacts on the welfare of cats and dogs before it is brought to this House?
No speech on this subject could be complete without mentioning the charities that do so much in this area: Cats Protection, whose wonderful work I have seen at first hand; the Dogs Trust; Battersea; Wood Green; the Blue Cross; and the RSPCA. Their often life-saving work in looking after, neutering, microchipping and re-homing abandoned pets, as well as their educative work in schools, is beyond price. Much of that work— fundraising, fostering and running adoption centres—is volunteer-based. I pay tribute to everything volunteers and professional staff do to care for tens of thousands of defenceless and vulnerable animals. They are a crucial part of a civilised society and we applaud their dedication and commitment.
This is a subject about which I feel passionately. I have always believed that it is the priceless role of this House to give a voice to the voiceless, and what better example is there than to give a voice to our friends in the animal kingdom who have perhaps been cruelly treated, or abandoned, and in need of a caring home? For those of us lucky enough to live with a cat or a dog, their unconditional love becomes one of the most precious things in our lives. I have always sought to return that, but I want to ensure that all cats and dogs are as loved as those my partner and I have been privileged to share our lives with. This debate is a wonderful way to do just that, and I look forward greatly to hearing the contributions ahead.
Lord Hoyle (Lab)
My Lords, in opening I wish to say something that may be considered trite but which is nevertheless true. There is no such thing as a bad dog; what we have are bad owners. It is worth stressing that particularly now, coming up to Christmas time, when many people bring in pets that they believe they will love for life and then find out that the pets are difficult and tiring and need a lot of work. It is right that we are having this debate at this time and I congratulate the noble Lord on tabling his Question. While we may not want pets to be treated in that way, it will happen and a few months after Christmas there will be a lot more dogs and cats put out on the street. The emphasis being placed on this issue tonight will be helpful for the future.
I am also concerned about the breeding of fighting dogs. Perhaps the Minister can help me on this: why is the law not enforced more vigorously? For instance, I would like to know how many people have been prosecuted in the past 10 years for breeding fighting dogs. What about the people who organise the dog fights at which betting takes place? How many of those have been prosecuted? These are the problems that we need to look at, particularly when a good breed such as the Staffordshire bull terrier, which can be a lovable dog and a good family dog, is used in this way. Owners, particularly in London, use the dogs for their own protection. We ought to give attention to that in this debate.
The number of incidents involving injuries caused in attacks by dogs that are out of control has increased by 94% in the past 10 years. That is a very large increase. The number of people who have died since 2005 as a result of attacks by dogs totals 16. That is an increase to which we must pay attention. I was pleased that the noble Lord mentioned attacks by dogs on cats because it is nearly always fatal for them—and when it is not fatal, the cat is often badly damaged and frightened, and becomes even more timid about going out. That is another matter to which we must pay attention. I emphasise that this is about people and how they deal with their animals.
Another aspect is the illegal importing of dogs and cats. I hope the Minister will pay some attention to that because we need to zone in on it and try to prevent it happening.
It cannot be emphasised too much that one of the main priorities is that cats and dogs should be neutered whenever possible, and a national neutering day would be a very good idea. We must get through to people; why should there be unnecessary puppies and kittens, a lot of which come as a result of people who do not understand the importance of having their animals neutered? I join in paying tribute to the charities that are doing a wonderful job in providing neutering for no cost, which is encouragement in itself. Anything that we can do in that regard would be helpful.
Of increasing importance is the fact that more and more people are going overseas on their holidays and are putting their dogs and cats into kennels and catteries. We must try to ensure that these institutions and the people who run them are of a high standard. Many of them are—in fact the vast majority are and the people who run them do so because of their interest in animals. However, in many places the conditions are not as good as they ought to be. We ought to express an interest in that and do what we can to improve the standard of care that is provided by kennels and catteries. Let us try to bring them all up to the standard of those that are doing their best and are outstanding in that work.
Finally, because my time is up, how effective has the Animal Welfare Act 2006 been? I should like the Minister to comment because we can do an awful lot to improve the lot of our animal friends, who, as the noble Lord said, are important to all of us here—not only those of us taking part in the debate but millions of pet owners outside. I thank the noble Lord for raising this matter.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I am delighted to participate in this debate secured by my noble friend. I do so not as a dog owner, nor indeed as a cat owner—much to the chagrin of my 10 year-old daughter, who puts persistent pressure on me but I will resist. That is not to say that I do not understand the many benefits that cats and dogs bring to homes in our country in terms of companionship, health, and animals’ ability to encourage people’s better nature. It is important that this House is debating this issue and it does not do so enough. I pay tribute to my noble friend for securing this debate.
We as individuals have a huge duty of care to animals, and the way that we treat them is important. We should reflect on how we do so because it is also an indication of how we treat our fellow humans. Like others, I pay tribute to the welfare organisations that do so much for our companion animals. As a former head of campaigns and former vice-president of the RSPCA, it is no surprise that I shall focus on that organisation at a time when it is being targeted because of what is seen to be more political campaigning. I dispute that, but it nevertheless means that the vital work it undertakes in re-homing cats and dogs can be put to one side. The RSPCA is now re-homing more than 11,000 dogs and nearly 30,000 cats a year; we should remember that and pay tribute to the organisation and its volunteers who carry out that work.
I also acknowledge the work that this coalition Government have done on the welfare of dogs. As has been noted, it is this Government who will bring in compulsory microchipping for dogs, which will be incredibly valuable in reuniting pets with their owners; and it is this Government who plan to clear up some of the confusion in the legislation around the definition of a public place, so that criminal liability can be extended to private property.
The issue that I want to cover relates to the welfare of dogs and specifically the consolidation of dog legislation. As many Members will be aware, it is presently scattered among 10 pieces of legislation—soon to be 11 if the Bill that made us begin this debate late reaches the statute books. That plethora of legislation leads to confusion among the law enforcement agencies—dog wardens, RSPCA inspectors and others—about which legislation is right to use in different situations, be it dog fighting, straying, prohibition types or dangerous dogs. It also means that there can be some lack of clarity for the general public to know who they should report incidents and complaints about.
There are clearly a number of arguments in favour of dog legislation consolidation; I will concentrate on just four. The first is that the legislation we have at the moment tends to be very reactive, so does not prevent accidents from happening. It is interesting to note that both Northern Ireland and Scotland have recently passed legislation to make earlier intervention possible. Secondly, most of this legislation was drafted prior to the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and may not take account of the current understanding of dog behaviour and welfare. That is particularly true in the area of dangerous dogs, where it is generally accepted that there are critical developments and environmental influences which affect aggression, and that it is not just about the breed types. It is interesting that in America, in October I think—certainly this autumn—President Obama said that breed-specific legislation was ineffective and that the right approach should be to encourage responsible dog ownership regardless of breed.
Thirdly, the existing legislation is incredibly complex and has required an awful lot of legal testing. There is nothing wrong with that; court cases can often be very helpful in understanding what the legislation was seeking to achieve, but in the area of the Dangerous Dogs Act it has become extremely complex and expensive to enforce. The seizing and kennelling costs associated with enforcing that legislation in England and Wales alone for the police force is £4 million every year. We are also getting a ballooning number of prosecution cases, which is making the costs much, much higher for our hard pressed law enforcement agencies, including the police. Fourthly and finally, the trends in animal welfare are clearly all moving in the wrong direction. Cruelty prosecutions are up, the number of dog bites is up, the number of prosecutions for prohibited types is up, and the number of prosecutions for people not keeping their dogs under control is up as well. Something is clearly not working. We are not only compromising animal welfare but putting human safety at risk.
In conclusion, there are loud voices in favour now of consolidating the dog legislation. In a recent 2010 consultation for the Government, 78% of the public said that they were in favour of it, the EFRA Select Committee said that it was in favour of it, and we know that ACPO is as well. I ask the Government: what is their current thinking on the case for consolidating dog legislation welfare?
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, I come from a family of proud dog lovers. My long standing personal friend and noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood, to whom we are all deeply indebted for this debate, has spoken eloquently of his lifelong devotion to cats. There is ample room in the human heart for both. Churchill regarded both cats and dogs with great affection and from time to time brought them together in happy co-existence. During his peacetime premiership, he had for some while the exclusive companionship of a fine poodle, named Rufus. Then in October 1953, a pretty black kitten was found on the steps of No. 10 where, over the years ahead, under Conservative, Labour, and coalition Governments, a succession of felines would turn up. The 1953 kitten rushed to Churchill and jumped on his knee to begin deep, contented purring. “It has brought me luck,” Churchill declared. “It shall be called Margate,” he added, without further explanation. He presumably had in mind the seaside town where he had recently delivered a triumphant speech to the Conservative Party conference. Rufus went off to bed in a sulk, but swiftly came to terms with the new situation and contented to share his world famous master with the new arrival.
It is fitting that we should discuss in the same debate the welfare of two animals that have given so much companionship to so many people, and will continue to do so. They all deserve the best possible care, but as my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood has shown so distressingly, today too many of them are the recipients of harshness and cruelty, not love and affection.
The Question before us happily relates to the entire United Kingdom and so provides an opportunity for me to make brief reference to Northern Ireland, a part of our country to which I am particularly attached. Animal welfare issues come within the ambit of the Northern Ireland Assembly, but that is no reason to exclude them from consideration here. At every level there is much that Belfast can learn from Westminster and vice versa. A new chapter in the history of animal welfare in the province opened last year with the implementation of the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, which introduced—very belatedly it must be said—the major new legislative framework of protection created in England and Wales by the landmark 2006 Act. Enforcement of the law, which had previously rested with the police, has passed to Northern Ireland’s 26 local councils. They have banded together to appoint five—just five—animal welfare officers.
There is much for the group of five to do. A rising tide of abuse and neglect is plainly apparent to the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the world’s second oldest animal welfare charity, founded in 1836 and to whose work I pay tribute. All sections of the community have always been served with unwavering dedication both in times of turmoil and in the better times that now exist. The USPCA backs wholeheartedly the calls being made throughout the country for action in schools, particularly primary schools, to equip the young with a proper sense of responsibility towards family pets.
Some appalling recent cases of cruelty have been uncovered by the USPCA. For example, a single family in North Down now faces some 200 charges arising from the attacks it unleashed first on badgers and subsequently on pet cats, using dogs including illegal pit bull terriers. In its most recent report, the USPCA expressed profound concern about the increasing number of puppy farms, which nothing is likely to halt while advertising on the internet remains unregulated. As an officer of the USPCA put it to me:
“The sums to be made are astronomical and public awareness is low”.
As regards cat breeders, no arrangements for inspection exist. The USPCA states that:
“A kitten would have to die for reasons attributable to the breeder before any action could be considered by a welfare officer”.
Will the new legislation make a significant difference? Will there be an increase in prosecutions on a similar scale to that recorded in England and Wales after the 2006 Act? The early signs are not encouraging. In 2012-13, just one person was successfully prosecuted. The USPCA is concerned that undue use is being made of improvement notices in cases where prosecutions are needed. But in the ineffable prose in which our public authorities delight, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, known as SOLACE, looks serenely ahead. It has a project board that,
“continues to hold stakeholder events to build relationships and an understanding of roles and responsibilities and to discuss a wide range of animal welfare issues”.
A rather more vigorous approach would be preferable.
The Northern Ireland Executive need to instil a far greater sense of urgency and purpose into the civil servants and officials with whom they are so generously supplied. I hope that my noble friend the Minister, who is devoting so much time and care to the welfare of cats and dogs in this part of the country, will encourage Northern Ireland Ministers to follow his fine example. He might, in particular, press them to consider putting the USPCA on the same footing as the RSPCA as regards investigatory and enforcement powers. Let us do things in the same way throughout our country where that is the best course.
Lord Trees (CB)
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Black, for initiating this debate, which, as he pointed out, is the first that we have had on this subject for some time, and it is very timely.
In recent years, a number of cultural, social and economic developments have dramatically affected the well-being and welfare of our pet dogs in the UK. Many of these changes are associated with the breeding of dogs and their subsequent fate, and it is this aspect of canine welfare on which I want to concentrate.
Some issues have been evolving over many years—notably the breeding of dogs with exaggerated physical conformations, which are detrimental to health. Indeed, this was an issue that worried me greatly when I was in practice some 40 years ago. The matter was thoroughly reviewed by Sir Patrick Bateson’s independent inquiry into dog breeding in 2010, and remedial action is being taken by, among others, the Kennel Club and the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, which was set up as a consequence of the Bateson report.
Such action is very welcome, but I have to say that it is at the very least an embarrassment that this matter was brought to a head by a TV programme and not by those working closely with pedigree dogs, including the Kennel Club, the dog charities and, regrettably, the veterinary profession. We have all been complicit in creating animals that have been so deformed that they have suffered unnecessarily because of physical conformation. I am not talking here about the more complex genetic diseases which affect a proportion of some breeds and which require genetic and epidemiological investigation to predict; I am talking about anatomical deformations, plain for anyone to see. Sadly, there is still a culture which regards dogs as fashion accessories. We must ensure that in future the whims of human fashion do not dictate animal structure to the detriment of the health of those animals.
A more recent development has been the emergence of puppy farming, which is now taking place on an alarming scale. For example, the counties of Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire alone, according to Puppy Alert, have a total of 162 licensed premises, which are thought to produce some 28,000 puppies a year destined for the pet trade in England. The RSPCA estimates that some 50,000 dogs are imported from Ireland alone, and then there are imports of unknown quantity from mainland Europe. The conditions under which these animals are bred are often totally inappropriate, with overcrowding, lack of hygiene and lack of attention to the social needs of the animals. This supply chain leads to a complete separation of the dog breeder and the parent bitch from the puppy offspring and the ultimate dog owner. This is bad for the ultimate owner and certainly detrimental to the well-being of the pup. This dissociation is further exacerbated by the now widespread practice of selling puppies over the internet, to which several noble Lords have referred. One has to ask whether the internet is an appropriate way of selling a dog, but I fear that there is little that we can do about that.
Paradoxically, this commercial exploitation and proliferation of dog breeding, often by criminal gangs, has been accompanied by a huge increase in the number of stray dogs. The Dogs Trust estimates that around 126,000 stray dogs were seized by local authorities in the year to March 2011, and the financial burden on charities and local authorities of dealing with the stray dog problem has been estimated at nearly £60 million. Finally, the growth in cross-border trade—especially illegal trade—exposes the British dog population and, indeed, humans to the increased risk of imported diseases, some of which are unique to dogs but others, such as rabies, are fatal to humans.
What can be done? First, there is much that can be, and is being, done by bodies interested in the welfare of dogs voluntarily to improve the situation by education, information and co-ordination. Defra has published on its website excellent guidelines to follow when buying a cat or dog. The BVA Animal Welfare Foundation and the RSPCA have collaborated to launch the Puppy Contract and the Puppy Information Pack, which provide advice and, on a voluntary basis, have the buyer and seller agree on their responsibilities with regard to the animal’s health and well-being. Furthermore, the Pet Advertising Advisory Group has provided guidelines for websites that advertise puppies for sale, and those guidelines have been adopted by at least two of the websites involved.
However, there is a need for some strengthening of statutory controls, and I submit that it would not need new primary legislation. The potentially excellent Animal Welfare Act 2006, to which many noble Lords have referred, has laid down clear responsibilities for all animal keepers. In addition to the provision of adequate food, water and living conditions, it requires owners to cater for the social needs of animals, to allow animals to express their normal behaviour and to provide,
“protection from, and treatment of, illness and injury”.
Only modest subsidiary measures under the Animal Welfare Act 2006—for example, expansion of the guidelines and welfare code for dogs—would be required to render it unambiguously applicable to some of the above problems around dog breeding, and that would allow the repeal of the Breeding of Dogs Acts of 1973 and 1991 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
I apologise to the noble Lord but he is going into the time that will be available for the Minister’s reply.
Lord Trees
Other issues require more rigorous enforcement of existing legislation.
In conclusion, with the refinement of existing regulation and proper enforcement, the Animal Welfare Act could be used better to safeguard the health and welfare of dogs and to ensure that dogs are bred with due regard to the health of their offspring. I urge the Government to consider such action.
Baroness Fookes (Con)
My Lords, before I get launched and forget, I must declare an interest as a vice-president of the RSPCA and president of one of its local branches. I also chair a charity that seeks to raise funds and channel them to the Companion Animal Welfare Council, which was set up originally by my noble friend Lord Soulsby and others, with the object of providing expert advisory guidance on all matters relating to companion animals. The idea of the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, was that eventually it would become like the Farm Animal Welfare Council, with some government support. Unfortunately, finances are such that this has never happened. Indeed, we are now finding it difficult to raise funds, at a time when it is so difficult for all the animal welfare charities that previously contributed to it. It has produced a number of interesting reports, one of which went to Defra when it was considering, in its embryonic form, what became the 2006 Act. It has also considered dog registration and other matters.
I am, of course, delighted that dog registration will become compulsory, with microchipping, in 2016, but I have to tell the Minister that I personally, like many others, have waited a long, long time. When the old dog licensing legislation was abolished in the 1980s, I suggested that compulsory registration, brought up to date with the then new microchipping, would be a good idea. In the other place I sought on two separate occasions to attach it to other Bills, with a total lack of success. So I am very pleased now, because I think it will do more than anything else to improve the welfare of dogs and help to deal with the appalling problem of strays, which has been so distressing to many of us for years, and also the unwanted dog population.
The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, mentioned dog fighting—a particularly horrible and barbaric so-called sport. He wondered why there were so few prosecutions. I fear that the reason is that the very secretive groups of people who undertake this are very good at finding distant places where they may engage in it. For example, when I was a Plymouth MP, we knew that Dartmoor often provided ideal opportunities for people to hide away and engage in that barbaric practice. I know from talking to RSPCA inspectors that they virtually had to go underground, practically in disguise, to penetrate such groups. It is not an easy thing to do.
Something of great concern to me at the moment is the use of electronic collars for the so-called training of dogs. As far as I am aware—unless the Minister can tell me otherwise—it is still legal, but I think it should be outlawed. The matter could well be embraced in one of the codes under the 2006 Act. I hope that the Minister will look into that as a matter of urgency.
There are innumerable other matters with which one could concern oneself, but let me now turn to the subject of cats. Like my noble friend Lord Black, I am a great lover of cats as well as dogs. One of the most miserable parts of my life in animal welfare has been seeing how many cats are unwanted. Sometimes they become feral. The animal welfare charities are unable to deal with them all properly, and one of the most miserable things one can do is to go to one of the welfare establishments where there are cages upon cages of animals waiting to be re-homed. They all look adorable, and one wants to take them all home. In fact, years ago when I chaired the RSPCA, my mother was still alive and I used to take her round on visits—until finally she said, “I can’t bear to see any more of these unwanted dogs and cats. Please don’t ask me to come with you again.” We still have the problem; it never seems to go away.
I hope that the Minister will look again at the issue of unwanted animals, particularly cats. I am sure that, as other noble Lords have suggested, a lot could be done with a really good neutering programme. The animal welfare charities do their best, but I believe that the Government themselves should be taking a more urgent look at this. Dare I suggest that they might put a little money towards it? I am probably addressing deaf ears—very deaf ears. None the less I shall make the point, because it is time that Governments took more responsibility, rather than waving it off to local authorities, animal welfare charities—you name it. I am aware that my time is up, so I shall sit down in hope.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, may I first congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Black, on securing this excellent debate and on the way in which he introduced it? The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, is right to resist getting a dog or a cat until she is ready. I was not so strong, and have two delightful dogs, Chesil and Otis, at home.
We are a nation of animal lovers. One quarter of us have a dog and a fifth of UK households have a cat, but it is clear that, as has been reiterated by the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, and others in the debate, there are more cats, kittens, dogs and puppies than there are good homes for them. The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, has given us a timely reminder of the need to educate owners and potential owners in the run-up to Christmas.
The defining legislation is, of course, as we have heard, the Animal Welfare Act 2006, brought in by the Labour Government. Under that Act, powers exist for secondary legislation and codes of practice to be made to promote the welfare of animals. I know that the Government are considering a number of specific issues, including updating or bringing in new regulations or codes. Until such new provisions are made, existing laws will continue to apply. We look forward with impatience. As a result of that legislation, there is guidance for pet owners and codes of practice that can also be used in courts as evidence in cases brought before them relating to poor welfare. Clearly, owners should therefore be aware of them and I wonder whether the Minister has any plans to publicise them further through vets, pet shops, pet insurers or other media.
There is a plethora of legislation relating to the keeping of cats and dogs, their sale and their welfare. Your Lordships’ House is separately debating the need for stronger dog control. I pay tribute to the work of Angela Smith MP and Julie Hilling MP who are driving a lot of this work in the other place, and to my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon who is leading for this side on the Bill that we are interrupting this evening.
When we ask people about the welfare of dogs and cats, many ask what we can do about breeding and better regulation of breeders. The Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 provides protection for dogs used in breeding establishments. Under this legislation, any person who keeps a breeding establishment for dogs at any premises and carries on at those premises a business of breeding dogs for sale must obtain a licence from the local council. Those people who are not in the business of breeding dogs for sale—the so-called hobby breeders—and produce fewer than five litters in any period of 12 months do not need a licence. I would be interested in whether the Minister agrees with the noble Lord, Lord Black, and others who argue that this should be lowered to two litters in 12 months and whether that should be extended to cats.
The local council has the discretion under current legislation whether to grant a licence and, before doing so, must satisfy itself that the animals are provided with suitable accommodation, food, water and bedding material; that they are adequately exercised and visited at suitable intervals; and that all reasonable precautions are taken to prevent and control the spread of diseases among dogs. Local councils are responsible for enforcing the legislation. I am interested to know the Minister’s judgment as to whether he believes that councils still have the resources and expertise to do that.
In addition to ensuring that dogs are kept in suitable accommodation, the law also places limits on the frequency and timing of breeding from a bitch. Bitches cannot be mated before they are one year old, must have no more than six litters in a lifetime and can have only one litter every 12 months. Breeding records must be kept to ensure that these requirements are adhered to. Puppies produced at licensed breeding establishments can be sold only at those premises or a licensed pet shop. There is no mention of the internet. Does the Minister agree that this regime needs to be revisited?
The Welsh Assembly Government are acting: they began a three-part consultation in 2010, which ended last month. It seeks to repeal the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and replace it with regulations made under Section 13 of the Animal Welfare Act in relation to Wales. The policy intent is to improve the animal welfare of all dogs on licensed breeding establishments. Importantly, once again, we in England are being left behind. Wales will have consulted and be reforming the laws on dog breeding before the coalition Government have even begun.
On this side, we therefore call on the Government to follow the leadership on animal welfare being demonstrated by the Labour Administration in Wales and to consult on the law and regulations on breeding of dogs and licensed breeding establishments in England so as to repeal outdated legislation and bring forward new regulations to improve the animal welfare of all dogs on licensed breeding establishments.
The Pet Animals Act 1951, as amended in 1983, protects the welfare of animals sold as pets. It requires any person keeping a pet shop to be licensed by the local council. That council may attach any conditions to the licence, may inspect the licensed premises at all reasonable times and may refuse a licence if the conditions at the premises are unsatisfactory or if the terms are not being complied with. Councils are responsible for enforcing the law in this area and anyone who has reason to believe that a pet shop is keeping animals in inadequate conditions should raise the matter with the council. However, much of this Act, which was written in 1951, is still relevant but much is out of date. Even its 1983 revision predates internet sales of pets, which we have heard is rife. Pets cannot be sold in the street, on barrows or at markets but they can be sold on the internet. Will the Minister please tell us when that will be updated?
If I had time, I would talk about puppy farms, which have been addressed well by the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Trees. I would also have referred to the excellent brief by Cats Protection and have raised the issues around neutering, which were so admirably raised by the noble Lord, Lord Black.
I have run out of time. We have had a good debate and I look forward to hearing answers to some of the questions from the Minister.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Black on securing a debate on this important subject. I echo the generous comments made by him and other noble Lords about the wonderful charities operating with pets. My noble friend reminded me, as did the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that I, too, should declare an interest as a 50% shareholder in a rescue poodle crossed with a Shih Tzu. I am not sure of the breed name for that.
Although I am the Minister with responsibility for companion animal welfare, my ministerial remit applies only to England. As noble Lords will know, animal welfare is a devolved policy area in the United Kingdom, so I hope my noble friend Lord Lexden will forgive me if I therefore focus on what we are doing to improve welfare for cats and dogs in England. He might like to know that I regularly meet with Ministers from the devolved Administrations and our discussions range widely.
Promoting responsible pet ownership—something referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle—remains a clear element of the coalition commitment. More responsible pet owners lead to improved welfare for all pets. The comprehensive legislation providing for and underpinning the welfare of all pet animals is the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and my noble friend paid a fitting tribute to the previous Government for so legislating. That Act not only introduces offences for animal fighting and cruelty, but offers a preventive element by placing a duty of care on owners to provide for the welfare needs of their animals. There are statutory codes of practice on the welfare of cats and dogs that summarise the important things to consider when making decisions on how to care for a pet.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend, spoke of the sale of pets and in particular the Pet Animals Act 1951. I understand that there were proposed plans under the previous Government to review existing legislation following the introduction of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. However, they did not pursue the matter. This Government are not pursuing an overhaul either. Having said that, legislation is already being looked at under the red-tape challenge. In the context of my noble friend Lady Parminter’s broad question, perhaps I can return to that later.
In addition, noble Lords are well aware of timetabling pressures. We need to focus on the most urgent changes necessary to protect public safety. We see those changes now in Clauses 98 and 99 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill currently before your Lordships. Rather than take time now—and we will be short of time—I hope that noble Lords are prepared to have those debates when we come to those parts of the Bill.
Where someone is in the business of selling animals as pets in a pet shop or through any other medium, they must be licensed under the 1951 Act. Despite being more than 60 years old, the Pet Animals Act still requires someone who is in the business of selling animals to have a valid licence from their local authority. I will return to that subject in a moment.
As well as important legislative changes we are making to improve the welfare of cats and dogs in United Kingdom, we are also taking forward important non-legislative policies and tools. The key issue here, as my noble friend Lord Black said, is the advertising and selling of cats, dogs and other pets online, which is increasingly controversial as the use of the internet to facilitate such sales increases. We have seen prohibited dogs for sale and cats and dogs kept in unacceptable conditions being advertised. I know that some organisations have called for the advertising of pets online simply to be prohibited. However, having considered this very carefully, my position is that such an approach would be very difficult to enforce and indeed would be likely to increase the risk of pushing unscrupulous advertisers underground.
We stand a much greater chance of success by engendering an improved culture in how our pets are bought and sold in this country. This must be done by better education of buyers, sellers and those in the middle, such as advertising sites that link the two. To that end, I thank the members of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group for their work in this area and their successes so far.
PAAG is a group of animal welfare, keeping and veterinary organisations that have come together to look at the issue of pet advertising. In September, I was privileged to represent the Government in endorsing their minimum standards for classified websites, attending the launch of the standards and holding a meeting with representatives from seven of the most prominent classified ad sites in the country. The engagement with PAAG and the Government on this matter by the sites has been really very encouraging, and I am grateful.
We are also working with PAAG and the sites to ensure that potential new pet owners are as fully informed as possible about ownership and the responsibilities that it brings. This is especially important today when purchasing a pet is so easy. Most of the websites already provide welfare advice and we are aiming to top this up with on-screen devices such as pop-ups that will further remind new owners of their duties under the Animal Welfare Act and the responsibility that comes with owning a pet.
In the past year, and as part of the move to the new GOV.UK website, we have included additional information on points to consider when buying a puppy and highlighted important organisations, which are well placed to offer detailed advice in order to ensure that your puppy is healthy. We will continue to remind the public of using the valuable resources that are already available—such as the BVA AWF puppy contract when considering buying a puppy. The wonderful pet charities have extensive user-friendly information available. Above all, we urge the public to consider re-homing a rescue cat or dog before buying a kitten or puppy.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, I am conscious that we are approaching the festive season when people begin to consider pets as presents. I reiterate the 35 year-old message that a pet is for life. It is a message that the Government will be sending out over the next few weeks to ensure that pet ownership is not seen as a light undertaking.
The work on advertising of cats and dogs crosses over into that of breeding, as we see significant numbers of puppies and kittens for sale, as noble Lord, Lord Trees, and others mentioned. As noble Lords will know, there is legislation on the breeding of dogs to protect the welfare of all dogs involved.
Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, local authorities have the power to license those in the business of breeding dogs. I reiterate that the so-called five litter test, which is referred to in the legislation, is a maximum, not a minimum limit. Whether someone needs a licence is first and foremost about whether they are in the business of breeding and selling dogs. There is an obvious read-across into how HMRC defines trading for tax reporting purposes. It helpfully provides nine indicators to aid individuals and authorities in determining whether their earnings are from trading. If some of these indicators are met by dog breeders, then they are in the business of breeding dogs and must be subject to licensing conditions. But even if someone is not in the business of breeding, anyone producing five litters or more per year must be licensed.
For further clarity, I think it is worth addressing the issue of so-called “hobby breeders”, which some noble Lords have referred to. Where hobby breeders are in the business—for instance, there is a profit-seeking motive or a systematic selling system—then these too should be licensed, even if they breed only two litters per year.
I should also emphasise that all breeders of dogs and cats, regardless of their licensing status, may be investigated by local authorities under the Animal Welfare Act where there are welfare concerns. It is for local authorities to prioritise such activities in their area and demonstrate the level of necessary resource that should be allocated. The public should alert their local authority where they have welfare concerns on any breeding establishment or if they believe an unlicensed breeder should be licensed.
The noble Lord, Lord Trees, spoke of standards of breeding. I am very heartened by initiatives such as the BVA and the Kennel Club canine health schemes, and veterinarians are generally being proactive in educating breeders and owner clients on the health consequences of breeding dogs with inherited disease or extreme conformation. The work here of the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding to improve standards is very welcome. The noble Lord, I hope, will be pleased to hear that Defra is assisting in supporting updating of the guidance for breeding establishments, which will be released shortly and should contribute to better implementation and enforcement of the regulations.
I am about half way through what I wanted to say, but I have just been told that I have no more than two minutes left. I will go as far as I can and then if I may write to noble Lords on points that I am unable to cover. My noble friends Lord Black and Lady Fookes made important points about the benefits of neutering. The Government recommend that owners ensure their pets are neutered in order to limit the number of accidental litters and safeguard the welfare of existing animals. I know that a number of charities are strong advocates of neutering. I cannot commit to a government-backed national neutering day, but we will certainly work with those I have mentioned in order to ensure that the public receive the right message on neutering.
My noble friend Lord Black referred to attacks on cats. Such attacks are immensely distressing for owners and, clearly, for the pets involved. I can assure my noble friend that this is something the Government take very seriously. It is not the norm for dogs routinely to attack cats, although many naturally have a chasing instinct. I will write to my noble friend further on that.
I know that I have to write my noble friend Lady Parminter on the consolidation of the dog legislation—not something that we propose to do, but I need to explain to her why not. Likewise, I must write to my noble friend Lady Fookes about electronic training aids, which is an important subject. I have made sure that I have personally experienced those aids, so that I can form an opinion on them. Yes, I survived.
I wanted to find a moment to tell my noble friend that Defra’s chief vet will be holding an “Ask Defra” session on cat welfare and cat protection shortly.
In closing, I thank noble Lords for an interesting debate on this important issue which is, as your Lordships know, something in which I am particularly interested. I hope that what I have said this evening, perhaps combined with what I shall say in writing, will be useful to clarify what the Government are doing and the work we continue to do in this area.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hamwee
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I should probably start by saying, “as I was saying”. I apologise again to the Committee for some confusion about an earlier amendment. Members of the Committee were either excessively polite, in the manner of your Lordships’ House, or completely unengaged with what I was saying, and did not interrupt me for some time. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, for eventually doing so.
I do not want to repeat what I have already said, but refer the avid reader of Hansard back to the report of earlier this evening. I will repeat my requests that we discuss before Report the relationship between how statutory nuisance and nuisance under the Bill are dealt with. Community protection notices, particularly noise abatement notices, address very similar problems. I am aware that guidance will have a role to play here, and I hope to contribute to it.
Amendment 22NA, which provides that the detriment under Clause 40(1) should be significant, speaks for itself. It should be more than a de minimis matter. Amendment 22ND deals with the possible clash of the use of CPNs and existing statutory powers, as does Amendment 22NE. Amendment 22NF, unlike the earlier amendments, seemed desirable to me—I do not mean that the others are not desirable but that this is my drafting, not someone else’s. I suggest that the community protection notice should explain not only the points set out in Clause 40 but the remedial action proposed given the powers to be provided under Clause 44, which will essentially allow the local authority to go in, carry out work and charge.
Amendments 22QD and 22QE take us into Clause 43, which is about appeals against community protection notices, and are probing in the hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that modification of a notice which the magistrates’ court may make on appeal can be only in favour of the applicant and that modification can include variation by reducing the requirements—in other words, that the appellant will not be in danger of finding himself with harsher restrictions or provisions. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 22QC in this group, which I will comment on in a minute or two. Since this is the first group about community protection notices, I thought that it might be helpful to say a few things on the back of that about them generally. Of all the new measures to deal with anti-social behaviour that are being put forward by the Government in their new battery of weapons, I am most enthusiastic about community protection notices if they are done in an appropriate way.
My first question to the Government is about those notices, which may be issued on reasonable grounds that,
“the conduct of the individual or body is having a detrimental effect, of a persistent or continuing nature, on the quality of life of those in the locality, and … the conduct is unreasonable”.
In what ways does this differ from the criteria and the test in Clause 1 for serving an IPNA? These require that a person,
“has engaged or threatens to engage in conduct capable of causing nuisance or annoyance to any person”.
What is the difference between “nuisance” and “annoyance” on the one hand, and on the other conduct that,
“is having a detrimental effect … on the quality of life”,
of people in the locality? I am not entirely sure what the difference in meaning is but perhaps the Minister can tell me.
Secondly, what kind of things are community protection notices intended to deal with? Clearly, they are intended to deal with different things from injunctions to prevent nuisance and annoyance. There is a hint in Clause 54, which talks of repeals and transitional provisions of litter abatement notices and two other litter notices under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, and of defacement removal notices under the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, which refer to graffiti really. What else is there? Is this just about litter and graffiti? I am sure that it is not, but for what other things do the Government envisage that this potentially wide-ranging power could be used?
For example, could it be used to deal with accumulations of rubbish in the back yards of empty houses, or of houses where tenants do not care too much about such things? Could it be used to deal with odour, if someone was making regular bonfires and causing lots of smoke in the area? Could it be used for animal nuisances, such as dog dirt? Could it be used for somebody who insisted on hanging out their washing across the front street rather than in other appropriate places at the back? Could it be used against gatherings in the street—for example, if people wished to use it, in the complaints being made at the moment about Roma people in Sheffield? Would this be an appropriate way of dealing with that or, whether or not it is appropriate, could it be used for that? It would be very helpful if, after this debate, the Minister could list 10 useful things it could be used for. Then we will have a fairly good idea of whether those of us who are local councillors and so on might consider that this is a power which we can use.
There are some concerns that a number of these powers and the existing ASBOs criminalise anti-social behaviour if notices are not complied with, although things such as litter already involve the criminal law. If this is an exciting new power that can be used for all sorts of things in a proportionate manner, there are concerns about the lack of resources, and of new resources, for local authorities to use it. As I keep saying in debates in this Committee: tackling anti-social behaviour and nuisances, and helping to make our residential streets more civilised places at local level, is resource-intensive. It means lots of different agencies co-operating.
For example, in my ward, every month there is a local environmental audit. People from the local neighbourhood policing team, localities officers, councillors and people from the council’s anti-social behaviour unit and its refuse collection and litter sections go round with a little wagon. If there are any accumulations of rubbish, they do not bother serving notices on anybody; they just stick it in the wagon and take it away. That kind of thing is quite resource-intensive and, at a time when all local authorities are under real pressure, it is the kind of thing that will be found difficult to keep going. Yet these powers will be no good whatever unless there are people on the ground who can investigate reported problems, see problems for themselves and have the resources to serve the notices, follow them up and deal with the people.
Amendment 22QC probes what happens in a slightly interesting situation. If you serve a notice in relation to a nuisance that refers to a piece of land and the person who you are serving it on transfers its ownership from, for example, one company that they own to another that they own or are involved in, or to their wife or their husband, you have to start all over again because you are dealing with different people. The proposal I am putting down here does not work but is there to probe. Have the Government got any ideas about how to deal with this? A remarkably high proportion of anti-social behaviour problems are caused by a few individuals who just enjoy playing the system and opposing the council. They regard it all as a great game. How on earth we deal with these people, I do not know but if my noble friend the Minister has any ideas, I would certainly like to hear them.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, at the risk of being mischievous, to some extent I am going to be. When the Minister responds to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, with his list of 10 things that local authorities might use these powers for, he might tell us whether the powers would extend to a local authority issuing community protection notices in respect of, say, a string of shops down its high street that promote payday loans. That is conduct having a detrimental effect of a persistent or continuing nature on the quality of life of those in the locality. Would it apply to the behaviour of a series of off-licences? In many high streets the only shops are betting shops, off-licences and payday loan companies. Would it be open to the local authority to serve community protection notices on those businesses setting a requirement that they should, effectively, cease to do business?
I am sure that that is not the intention of the legislation and I am not trying to belittle the important intention of the legislation in terms of the sorts of persistent nuisance that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is thinking of and that I, as a former local councillor, can certainly think of. These provisions require perhaps just a little clarification as I am sure that an inventive local authority lawyer could find all sorts of interesting ways in which you might argue that bodies are having,
“a detrimental effect, of a persistent or continuing nature, on the quality of life of those in the locality”.
I could labour the point at some length with many more examples but I suspect that the Minister’s patience—already wearing thin—will not survive it.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey has made the very powerful point that, frankly, everything depends on how intelligently or otherwise community protection notices are sought and applied and—to use the Minister’s words—whether anybody is acting mischievously in trying to seek or impose these notices. I am sure that when the Minister responds to the debate he will assure us that everybody will use them intelligently and everybody will work together in a great, grand partnership. That has been his basic theme throughout our debates but, of course, the Minister has no idea whether that will actually happen. I am sure that it will happen in the vast majority of cases, but it certainly will not happen in every case. The Minister must know that it is almost certain that, before long, the provision for community protection notices will be used in a way that is not being envisaged at the present time and, to that extent, is likely to be abused.
I will speak in particular to Amendments 22NB and 22NG which stand in my name. If a community protection notice is issued to an individual or body, the Bill states that they are required to,
“take reasonable steps to achieve specified results”.
Amendment 22NB deletes this wording because we would like to hear a little more from the Minister as to how this phrase will be interpreted and how it is expected to work. Can the Minister explain what counts as “reasonable” in this context and who will define what would be “reasonable steps”? Is it the intention that the person or body issued with a community protection notice will be told by the person issuing it what will be deemed to constitute,
“reasonable steps to achieve specified results”,
or is that all to be left up in the air?
Clause 40(3)(a) and (3)(b) refer to “specified things” with no requirement to take reasonable steps to do them but Clause 40(3)(c) refers to “specified results” and has a requirement to “take reasonable steps”. Why is there a difference in wording? If the reference to “reasonable steps” is so important, why does it not appear in Clause 40(3)(a) and (3)(b), which refer to “specified things”?
I turn now to Amendment 22NG. Clause 40(8) states:
“A community protection notice may specify periods within which, or times by which, requirements within subsection (3)(b) or (c) are to be complied with”.
Can the Minister explain why the Government have chosen to use the word “may” and not something more specific, such as “must” or “shall”? Why do the Government feel that there is no need for a specified period within which the requirements will be complied with—that is, requirements that are fair and clear to both the recipient of the community protection notice and the community itself? In what circumstances would a specified period not be helpful or would cause difficulties?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, these amendments seek to make a number of changes to the test for a community protection notice and to the arrangements of the service of a notice and the appeal against a notice. They also deal with the relationship with existing legislation, namely the statutory nuisance regime. I will first address the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Hamwee.
Amendment 22NA seeks to ensure that any detrimental effect on an individual is “significant” in order for the test to be met and the notice issued. I appreciate that a community protection notice should not be issued lightly. However, the test already includes appropriate safeguards. Not only does behaviour have to be persistent or continuing as well as unreasonable, but the individual in question has also to be served with a written warning. That is on top of any formal interventions that the council or a police officer may have already tried. By the time a community protection notice is issued there can be no doubt in the perpetrator’s mind that their behaviour is unacceptable. At that point the council or the police should be able to act, and quickly, to prevent further harm being caused to victims or communities.
I do not believe, given the multi-limbed test and written warning, that trivial or benign behaviours will be dealt with using the new notice. Not least, it is hard to see how those could be considered “unreasonable”. As my noble friend is aware, we have already published draft guidance for professionals, which provides some information on how the test should be interpreted. We are working closely with professionals and victims’ groups over the coming months to ensure that this is as helpful as possible. I will be very happy to look at this further to ensure that guidance is fit for purpose.
Amendment 22NF is well intentioned and I can understand why my noble friend raises it. When a community protection notice is issued, she is right that the person issued with it should fully understand the consequences of what is happening. In fact, as the draft guidance outlines, we would consider it good practice for some of this detail to be also included in the written warning. Under Clause 40(7)(b), the effects of Sections 43 to 48, including the possibility of remedial action and the financial implications of that, have to be outlined in the CPN, so that is already covered. Councils or the police should not be required to outline exactly what remedial action could be undertaken in case the situation changes. However, there is certainly nothing to stop the local agency from including it if appropriate. The purpose of a community protection notice is to require the person on whom it is served to take specified action. The power for a local authority to take remedial action is very much a fallback.
Amendment 22QB seeks to delete the ability for an authorised person to enter premises to serve a notice. I assure my noble friend that this is not a power of entry in the traditional sense. It simply allows the authorised person, when the occupier or owner is unascertainable, to serve the notice. That is only possible,
“to the extent reasonably necessary”.
For instance, where the problem occurs on derelict land that is owned by someone who cannot be identified, the authorised person can go on to the land to post the notice on, for instance, a prominent building on the site such as a shed. In many cases, posting the notice on the exterior of a building may be sufficient. It certainly does not give the authorised officer the ability to break down doors to serve the notice.
Amendments 22QD and 22QE seek to clarify the powers of the court when an individual appeals against a CPN served on them. I agree with my noble friend in the case of Amendment 22QE: the courts should be able to vary the notice by reducing the requirements. However, I believe that this is already covered in Clause 43(4)(b), which allows for the notice to be modified. I can also understand the point made by Amendment 22QD. It is hard to envisage a situation where an appeal would result in a notice being modified in a way that was not in favour of the appellant. However, the courts should have the flexibility to modify a notice in this way if it thinks that it is appropriate. Therefore, I do not believe that we should make this change to the legislation.
Amendments 22ND and 22NE bring us back to the subject of statutory nuisance. As my noble friend explained, the amendments are designed to ensure that there is no overlap between the new CPN and the statutory nuisance regime, established under Part III of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. Amendment 22ND would ensure that the new notice was not used wherever conduct was already subject to a control under another statute. Amendment 22NE goes further still and seeks to carve out noise nuisance from the new CPN. This goes completely against what we are trying to achieve through these reforms, and I hope my noble friend will now understand the way in which we see this working alongside the existing powers. Victims do not care which power is being exercised or from which statute it is derived. They do not really care who deals with their problem or who answers their telephone call at 3 am. They just want anti-social behaviour to stop. That seems like a pretty reasonable wish to me; that is what this Bill is seeking to provide. Those tasked with stopping the behaviour should be able to respond quickly and effectively, using more than one power where this is appropriate and justified. This is not least because the community protection notice can cover behaviour which does not fall within the ambit of statutory nuisance, even though there may be some overlap. These amendments could result in officers being unnecessarily risk averse, potentially not using the new power and so allowing anti-social behaviour to continue, ruining victims’ lives for longer than necessary.
The new CPN will be available to deal with a wide range of anti-social behaviour. To say “It can be used for this behaviour but not that behaviour” would simply return us to mistakes from the past. We must move on from focusing on the behaviour and instead understand the impact it is having on the victims and communities that are being damaged.
I was asked by my noble friend Lord Greaves for 10 ways CPNs could be used. I can give him three—I have three prepared already—and no doubt a certain amount of inventiveness will allow me to write to him with another seven, but at least these give an idea. They can be issued to any individual or body persistently behaving in a way that has a detrimental effect on the quality of life of people in the locality. That is the essence. For example, there is no current notice system to cover an individual who regularly allows their dog to foul a communal garden. A group regularly taking the same route home late at night while drunk, making noise and waking their neighbours: this behaviour is not covered by the statutory nuisance regime. A third example might involve a takeaway which persistently allows its customers to drop litter on the pavement outside and causes noise nuisance late at night. It could be required to put bins outside the shop and ensure that customers leave quietly after 10 pm. Current notices can only be used to deal with one particular type of behaviour. I am trying to give illustrations of the sort of issues that have considerable anti-social consequences and which can be dealt with through a CPN regime.
I have to say to my noble friend that we have acknowledged the importance of the statutory nuisance regime in guidance. We have acknowledged the wealth of experience available on the subject and made it clear that, when problems are persistent, police officers and social landlords should speak to their partners in the local authority to determine which action is most appropriate. The CPN is a simple but powerful tool, available to protect communities from persistent and unreasonable behaviour that is having a detrimental effect on people’s quality of life. It must remain so and, as such, I urge my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Greaves
I refer to a real case, which has been dealt with by serving planning notices, particularly Section 215 tidying-up notices, which are similar to the kind of notice that we are talking about now. The problem is associated with inappropriate use of land which is causing problems to people living adjacent to it. It is the use of the land that is the problem, but notices have to be served on the owner of the land, and the owner simply keeps transferring the ownership to somebody else, or to another company and then back again. The question that I am really asking is whether the Government could look at whether a community protection notice could be served on the land in some instances so that whoever owned that land would have to deal with the problems on it. If the problem is a dog, it is not associated directly with land—but, if it is a piece of land, could that possibly be considered?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I would certainly wish to consider the concept that my noble friend has presented to the Committee by tabling the amendment. It is well worth noting the illustration that he has given; we need to be certain that we have protected against that sort of situation. I shall no doubt be getting in touch with him and will try to consider this matter before Report. Meanwhile, I am grateful to him for raising this issue. Transferring the interest after a notice is issued may solve a problem, but it is not a ground for appeal, as he will understand.
My noble friend also asked about the difference between nuisance and annoyance and detrimental effect and how come the definitions are different. We have taken elements from existing powers; nuisance and annoyance has worked well, as we have said, in housing law, while detrimental effect is used in current environmental powers. It is also well understood. That is why we have transferred that language to this notice.
I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. On Amendment 22NB, the provision specifically allows for a requirement to be attached to a community protection notice that includes reasonable steps to achieve specified results. This preventive limb of the new notice is integral to the process and I am surprised the noble Lord wishes to see it removed. Under this provision, authorised officers could, for example, include a requirement for a dog owner to attend dog training classes to ensure they are better able to control their dog in future. If there was any doubt as to why the provision is necessary, I hope I have clarified the issue.
Lord Rosser
In Clause 40(3)(a) there is,
“a requirement to stop doing specified things”.
In Clause 40(3)(b) there is,
“a requirement to do specified things.”
In Clause 40(3)(c) there is,
“a requirement to take reasonable steps to achieve specified results”.
I should have thought that what the Minister has just described is a requirement to do specified things and is covered by Clause 40(3)(b). What kind of things does Clause 40(3)(c) cover? Why is it, in relation to Clause 40(3)(c), a requirement to take reasonable steps to achieve specified results, whereas in Clause 40(3)(b), which is a requirement to do specified things, there is no reference to taking reasonable steps?
It is clear that, in the eyes of the Government, there is some significance in putting the requirement to take reasonable steps in Clause 40(3)(c), but not in Clause 40(3)(a) or Clause 40(3)(b). I should be grateful if the Minister could explain what that is and what the distinction is between a requirement to do specified things and a requirement to achieve specified results. I asked whether it was intended that the person or body issued with a community protection notice will be told, by the person issuing it, what will be deemed to constitute,
“reasonable steps to achieve specified results”.
Lord Faulks (Con)
Before the noble Lord answers, I wonder if I might add to his burden and suggest that the difference between paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) is really pretty obvious. In paragraphs (a) and (b), somebody has direct control over specified things that can or cannot be done, whereas in paragraph (c) we are talking about third parties, over whom the best that can be ordered is that reasonable steps are taken to achieve specified results. It is a classic example, frequently found in legislation.
Lord Rosser
I hope the noble Lord will accept that the definitions the Minister was giving seemed to come under the requirement to do specified things, not achieve specified results, which is what I had asked about.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, my much less elegant interpretation of these provisions is that paragraph (c) is about “how” and paragraphs (a) and (b) are about “what”. There is an absolute requirement to achieve paragraphs (a) and (b) but there can be only a reasonable requirement—and a choice of ways—as to how to to get there.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I would see it as being about outcomes as opposed to methodology. Noble Lords are familiar with this concept and understand the particular example.
Moving on to Amendment 22NG, while I cannot think of a specific example where it would not be necessary to include the specified time for actions to be undertaken on a notice, I am not the front-line officer dealing with anti-social behaviour on a daily basis. Those officers have told us that the additional flexibility afforded by the new powers is exactly what they want. They do not want to be constrained on a time limit. This is directional and they want to be satisfied that the direction of travel is working properly. To put a time limit on it may be counterproductive. The amendment would erode that flexibility.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what is meant by “reasonable”. We have discussed “reasonable” before. In this case, the power will be used by council enforcement officers and police officers. These are trained professionals who make this judgment on a daily basis. What is reasonable in one situation is not reasonable in another. The judgment has to be made on a case-by-case basis. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, came up with the notion of CPNs for a string of shops promoting payday loans or for an off-licence. The conduct has to be defined as being unreasonable and a notice that imposes unreasonable requirements can be appealed. However, if an off-licence has benches outside encouraging people to congregate and engage in conduct that would be detrimental, it could be required through a CPN to remove the benches. That would be a perfectly reasonable request.
Except for the seven examples that I owe my noble friend Lord Greaves, I hope that I have given noble Lords the answers to their questions—but I appear not to have done so.
Lord Rosser
I really would like to hear the answers to my questions. I asked whether it was the intention that the person or body issued with a community protection notice would be told by the person issuing it what would be deemed to constitute,
“reasonable steps to achieve specified results”,
or will that be left in the air? Presumably, if there is an argument about the matter, it will be left for the courts to determine. Is that the case or will they be told what will be deemed to be reasonable steps to achieve specified results?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We should not make the methodology of serving the notice, which is what the noble Lord is referring to, specific. We discussed this when we talked about the requirement to do certain things. The steps that might have to be taken to achieve specified results may be up to the individual to judge. What is not in doubt is the need to indicate the specified result that is required. We discussed this issue when we were talking about the difference between paragraphs (a), (b) and (c).
Lord Beecham (Lab)
I follow briefly and with some trepidation in the footsteps of my noble friend Lord Harris. I draw the Minister’s attention to Clause 41(2), which states:
“Conduct on, or affecting, premises occupied for the purposes of a government department is treated for the purposes of section 40 as conduct of the Minister in charge of that department”.
Can the Minister give us some examples of conduct that would be attributed to a Minister which might invoke the community protection notice procedure—for example, the activities of Jobcentre Plus, the DWP or some other government departments? What do the Government have in mind here?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I suppose that this comes back to the accountability of Ministers. I am accountable to the Committee this evening in giving answers to somewhat difficult questions. I promise to write to the noble Lord with an explanation. He was very astute. I saw him leap with alacrity at a particular point and show it to a colleague on his Bench, so I knew that something might be up. I will write to the noble Lord.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I should have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would have been glad to ensure that if there were conduct on the part of a government department that might justify a CPN there would be someone there on whom it could be, not literally, pinned.
I come back to my amendments. The Minister said that victims do not care how a problem is solved or who solves it. I agree with that. In my group of amendments I am seeking to ensure that the most effective mechanism is used. That is why I keep coming back to the need to ensure that the professionals who will be left to use the existing statutory powers are confident that no confusion will be caused. If it would be helpful to undertake further discussions with probably not only the Minister’s own department but Defra, I know that there are people who will be happy to try to thrash this issue out in a practical fashion following today’s proceedings. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
Lord Greaves
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hamwee and I had a meeting with the Minister yesterday, which was extremely helpful regarding various parts of this and for which we thank him very much. One of the things we talked about was our mutual wish to speed up this Bill a little and move into a gallop. The slightly languid, if not sleepy, feeling in this Committee means that it will not happen this evening. I apologise to the Minister, as these are two amendments that I intended to amalgamate with the previous group and I forgot to do so.
Amendment 22NC is to probe the meaning of Clause 40(6), which reads:
“A person issuing a community protection notice must before doing so inform any body or individual the person thinks appropriate”.
This is very vague. Who do the Government think that that should mean, by what means should this take place and, in particular, how will the Government ensure that this happens without actually stating in the Bill a little more about who should be consulted or notified?
Amendment 22QA makes this a bit more definite in relation to the local authority. It reads:
“Where a community protection notice is issued by an authorised person who is not the relevant local authority, the person must notify the relevant local authority of the issue of the notice”.
The reason is that it is absolutely essential that the district council or unitary council, which is at the centre of the community protection notice regime, should know what is going on. It is about the role of the district council—as I call it—or the unitary council in dealing with these kinds of things. If constables are to go off and issue them on their own, or indeed if other people designated by the local authority are to do this, there is a risk of duplication of effort—and a risk of confusion for the people subject to the problems that the activities are causing, particularly if more than two or three agencies are trying to deal with it. There is also the essential co-ordinating role of the local authority.
Under Clause 44, it is the role of the relevant local authority to take any remedial action. Whoever serves the notice, the local authority ends up with that role. So if you are a person who can issue one and you are not that local authority, simply having to notify the local authority seems like common sense. It would help if it were in the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I would comment briefly that having looked at these amendments, Amendment 22QA seems to be a particularly reasonable and sensible way forward. If you think of the local authority as being at the centre of its place—not just part of the local council but managing the area—it seems very reasonable and sensible. This is perhaps a case, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and my noble friend Lord Harris said earlier, of wanting the parts of the Bill that are useful to work. This may well assist the Government in ensuring that the clause is effective.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, Amendments 22NC and 22QA are proposed by my noble friend to change the process at the point where a community protection notice is issued. Currently, when issuing a community protection notice, an authorised person—be that a police officer, an officer of a local authority or a person that the local authority has designated, such as a social landlord—would have to inform any body or individual that the person issuing the notice thinks appropriate. Amendment 22NC seeks to remove this requirement.
Amendment 22QA, in my noble friend’s name, then seeks to impose a requirement that an authorised person who is not the local authority must inform the relevant local authority of its issuing of a notice. I recognise that it is important that a local authority is aware that community protection notices are in operation in its area but, conversely, it is also important, as I am sure noble Lords will agree, that local authorities notify the police. The reality is that police and local authorities will be working together to tackle local anti-social behaviour and therefore it is not necessary to put into the Bill the requirement to inform the local authority. The existing provision in Clause 40(6) states that the authorising officer “must … inform” any appropriate individual or body of the issue of a community protection notice, and it is difficult to imagine any case where the relevant local authority would fall outside the definition of “appropriate”. I do not think it necessary to specify that the local authority must be informed.
However, there may well be others whom it would be appropriate to inform as well. As I have suggested, the police will often have an interest. I fear that the effect of my noble friend’s amendments would be to restrict the requirement to informing the local authority only.
Our guidance for front-line professionals states clearly that, where a community protection notice is being issued, there is clear merit,
“in involving the local council, which will have many years of experience in tackling environmental issues, when deciding whether or not to serve a CPN”.
As I and my noble friend have said on previous occasions, the guidance can be amended as we move through the parliamentary process. Of course, if there is a requirement, we can set a clearer expectation on the necessity of ensuring that the local authority is fully involved.
As an aside—I speak with some experience, although perhaps not with the same number of years’ experience as my noble friend—in my 10 years in local government, I served as both the cabinet member for the environment and then as the cabinet member for policing and community engagement. In that respect, my experience—albeit on a London council—showed that the local authority, the police and other local agencies work well on the ground, and we have faith that these agencies will continue to work well as we move forward.
Amendment 22QF concerns remedial works carried out by the local authority where there has been a breach of a community protection notice. Remedial works may be carried out if a person fails to comply with the terms of a notice served on them. The local authority may carry out the remedial work without the consent of the owner or the person who had defaulted on the notice on land “open to the air”, and Amendment 22QF would prevent this. The local authority cannot simply enter premises at will; I am sure that my noble friend knows that to be true. It must seek the “necessary consent” of the defaulter and the owner of the premises if that person is not the defaulter. However, there may be circumstances where the local authority has taken all reasonable efforts to find the owner but has not been able to do so. I do not believe that communities should continue to suffer in such circumstances, and that is why it is important that the authority is able to carry out remedial works.
I hope that my noble friend is reassured by the explanations I have given of what is behind the Government’s proposals here, and that he will be minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, although I was a bit peeved by the first part of his response. If I have not made it absolutely clear that the first amendment is a probing amendment in order to find out what this subsection means, then I apologise. I shall try to be clearer in future. It is quite normal in Committee to table amendments that take out subsections, not because you want to take them out but because you want the Government to explain what they mean. They are called probing amendments and that is fairly normal procedure, but I am sorry that I did not make that clear in this case. Clearly, I do not want to take out the subsection; I want a clear explanation from the Government of exactly what it means, and I shall read Hansard before I decide whether I have had a clear explanation.
The Minister said that the reason why councils will have to be notified is that they have many years of experience. That is true but it is not why they have to be notified. They have to be notified because, as I understand it, they are the most important central body as far as community protection notices are concerned. I am not suggesting that the police are not important—they clearly are very important indeed—but the council is the body that has the staff and the ability to go on to the ground and do something about these problems, and remedy them if that is required. The Minister said that the Government have faith that these agencies will continue to work well on the ground as we move forward. I have no doubt that where this is working well already on the ground it will continue to do so, and I hope that it will be brought in where it is not yet working—so long as the people are still there on the ground.
I am sorry to hammer on about this, but in many parts of the country it is precisely those council staff and the local neighbourhood policing teams, who are so vital to this operation, whose employers are wondering how long they can continue to pay them, because of the cuts that are taking place. That is just a fact. I am not making a political point. If I were on the Labour Benches I would be making a horrible political point and attacking the Government over this, but I am not doing that now; I am just stating that this is the fact that we have to live with. Many of us are fighting hard to ensure that in our own patches the mechanisms, the structure and the networks continue, but with every year that passes that gets more difficult. It is one thing to pass legislation like this that puts forward exciting new ideas and measures to deal with the problems, but if we cannot do it on the ground because there are no staff left, it is very difficult. Having moaned in that way, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Greaves
“(9) A community protection notice may require the control or removal from premises occupied by a body or individual of a plant of the following description—
(a) Japanese Knotweed (Fallopia japonica),(b) Himalayan Balsam (Impatiens glandulifera), or(c) a plant specified in an order made by the Secretary of State.”
Lord Greaves
My Lords, we have reached the high point of the evening: an amendment about Japanese knotweed. It is actually an amendment about weeds, alien and invasive. I have listed Japanese knotweed and Himalayan Balsam, which I think are now the two biggest nuisances of the invasive alien weeds in this country—and, indeed, from my observation, in much of Europe as well—but this is really an amendment about Japanese knotweed.
I could wax lyrical for hours about Japanese knotweed and the problems that it causes, if you want—but I am sure that you do not, so I shall not do that. I shall merely say that as a weed that has,
“a detrimental effect … on the quality of life of those in the locality”—
to quote the Bill on the subject of community protection notices—it is top of the list.
The Environment Agency has described Japanese knotweed as the most invasive species of plant in Britain. The problems are well known: on river banks, on pieces of land, invading people’s gardens, on building sites and on built sites, it is dreadful. It is an incredibly strong weed, which can grow up through concrete and split it, and cause the foundations of buildings to require attention. It can do all sorts of things, and it spreads very easily. It does not spread in the normal way, by sexual reproduction—not in this country, anyway. In this country the whole thing is apparently one huge female clone: it is all the same plant. It spreads vegetatively, and if you take a small part of the stem, the root or the leaf and just drop it, the odds are that you will have an infestation in that location before long.
Japanese knotweed causes huge problems. Local authorities attempt to deal with it on their own land—certainly my local authority does, perhaps because I nag it all the time—but it is much more difficult when the weed is on somebody else’s land. What is the law that applies to it? Because of its invasive nature, Japanese knotweed is listed in Schedule 9 and subject to Section 14 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. All that does is make it an offence to plant Japanese knotweed and cause it to grow in the wild. That is all very well if it is in the wild and growing as a weed on waysides or wherever. It does not apply to Japanese knotweed which you have not planted but which is growing on your property and you are not dealing with it. Under cross-compliance rules, if a farmer receives the single farm payment, he is required to take reasonable steps to prevent its spread. Those are the old rules and no doubt they will be rolled forward.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I will be brief: I am sure the Committee would want me to be so. I can be very reassuring to my noble friend. He presents what is a very serious issue. Japanese knotweed is not the only invasive and destructive plant, as indeed he mentioned.
In reforming the anti-social behaviour powers, we have deliberately created flexible powers that can be used to stop or prevent any behaviour that meets the legal test. We have streamlined the powers, and introducing a specific use for the community protection notice would be to reinvent the behaviour-specific powers we are trying to repeal.
However, as currently drafted, the CPN can be used to require someone to control or prevent the growth of these plants, or any others capable of causing the havoc that they do. It is non-specific in terms of the nature of the plant and in the sense that it does not necessarily refer to invasive plants in the legislation. But the test is that the conduct of the individual or body is having a detrimental effect of a persistent or continuing nature on the quality of life of those in the locality, and that the conduct is unreasonable. Those are the tests. In this case, the conduct can just as easily be interpreted to mean inaction, so not taking action to remove it can come under a CPN.
I hope that I can reassure my noble friend that the amendment does not add to the powers currently available in the Bill and elsewhere, and I ask him to withdraw it.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I am very pleased with that response. It is the most positive thing that I have heard a government Minister say about Japanese knotweed in the 10 years that I have been banging on about it in your Lordships’ House, along with other noble Lords. I am very grateful for that.
What I would really like to see when this legislation is passed, as it no doubt will be, is joint advice. I realise that the legislation will not refer to specific problems, whether Japanese knotweed, littering or anything else because the whole purpose of the CPN is to be general. But it would be very helpful if the Home Office and Defra could issue joint advice—together with CLG or anyone else—to councils and people about how to deal with this when the legislation is passed. There is a huge reluctance on behalf of many councils because they are frightened of the problem. They think that it is too expensive and that it cannot be solved. It is absolutely crucial that there is a war against Japanese knotweed throughout this country to get rid of it as far as possible.
I shall be badgering the Government to do that when this legislation is passed, but I am delighted by what the Minister said. I shall put it out, reprint it, pass it around and make him famous. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.