All 32 Parliamentary debates on 4th Sep 2024

Wed 4th Sep 2024
Wed 4th Sep 2024
Budget Responsibility Bill
Commons Chamber

Committee of the whole House
Wed 4th Sep 2024
Wed 4th Sep 2024
Wed 4th Sep 2024
Wed 4th Sep 2024
Holocaust Memorial Bill
Lords Chamber

2nd readingSecond Reading

House of Commons

Wednesday 4th September 2024

(3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Wednesday 4 September 2024
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock

Prayers

Wednesday 4th September 2024

(3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Prayers mark the daily opening of Parliament. The occassion is used by MPs to reserve seats in the Commons Chamber with 'prayer cards'. Prayers are not televised on the official feed.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Speaker’s Statement

Wednesday 4th September 2024

(3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I remind Members that the private Member’s Bills ballot book is open today in the No Lobby until 6pm, at which point it will be taken to the Public Bill Office and remain open for signatures until the rise of the House. The ballot draw will be held at 9 am tomorrow in Committee Room 8.

Oral Answers to Questions

Wednesday 4th September 2024

(3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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The Secretary of State was asked—
Martin Rhodes Portrait Martin Rhodes (Glasgow North) (Lab)
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1. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on a new industrial strategy.

Frank McNally Portrait Frank McNally (Coatbridge and Bellshill) (Lab)
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2. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on a new industrial strategy.

Gregor Poynton Portrait Gregor Poynton (Livingston) (Lab)
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15. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on a new industrial strategy.

Ian Murray Portrait The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
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This is, of course, my first Scottish questions on this side of the House, and I am delighted to be joined by so many colleagues from Scotland behind me. I welcome back returning Members from all parties and thank those who have not returned for all their hard work on behalf of their constituents. I thank the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Sir Alister Jack, for his work representing Scotland in Whitehall and the UK Government in Scotland. I also thank all the staff in the Scotland Office for making us so welcome. Their professionalism is unsurpassed.

I am very pleased that we were recently able to welcome 19 female Afghan medical students to Scotland so that they can continue their studies. The work to bring them here was initiated by Sir Alister Jack, and their safe arrival in the UK is a credit to our commitment to helping them.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) on his new position. I am sure he will be diligent in holding me to account, and I hope that I was diligent in holding him to account.

I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating Scotland’s Olympians and Paralympians, who have achieved so much sporting success this summer.

This Government will introduce a new industrial strategy to drive long-term, sustainable growth by securing investment in crucial sectors and industries in all parts of Scotland and the UK, which involves working in close partnership with the Scottish Government. That will support our national mission to have the highest sustained growth in the G7.

Martin Rhodes Portrait Martin Rhodes
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An industrial strategy that embraces the jobs of the future must involve our higher education institutions, including the three world-class universities in Glasgow. What are the Government doing to ensure that that is the case?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on his wonderful victory in Glasgow North. Scotland’s 19 world-class higher education institutions are an essential part of our economy, culture and global reputation, and they are paramount to the successful delivery of our missions. We punch well above our weight in Scotland, which is something that we need to protect and nurture. By the end of next week, I will have met the principals of all of Scotland’s universities. I want to deepen and strengthen those relationships, and I believe that the knowledge and expertise of those institutions will be crucial to delivering a new industrial strategy and the goals of this new Government.

Frank McNally Portrait Frank McNally
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Coatbridge and Bellshill has a rich history of heavy industry, but following years of empty rhetoric and empty soundbites from the previous UK Government and the current Scottish Government, there has been a failure to honour the legacy of industry across Scotland and deliver a long-term, sustainable and coherent strategy. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that industrial jobs in Scotland are as much a part of its future as they are of its history?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on winning Coatbridge and Bellshill. Scotland and its world-class industrial workforce will play a driving role in our ambition to become a green energy powerhouse in this country. For example, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Scottish Government and I met representatives of Petroineos earlier this week to discuss what support can be provided to ensure a sustainable future for the industrial clusters in the wider Falkirk and Grangemouth region, which is crucial to the entirety of Scotland and the UK. That includes our commitment to fund Project Willow with the Scottish Government.

Gregor Poynton Portrait Gregor Poynton
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I thank my right hon. Friend for his response. A UK-wide industrial strategy that supports jobs in Scotland is incredibly vital. However, this week we have heard the concerning news that the Mitsubishi Electric plant in my constituency is looking to reduce its workforce by 440 from its current complement of 1,600. This is a highly skilled workforce creating world-leading products such as air source heat pumps and air conditioning units, which are vital as we look to decarbonise our economy. Through no fault of its own, however, Mitsubishi Electric has seen its order book fall away due to short-term economic pressures. May I ask the Secretary of State to meet the management, workers and me to see what the UK Government can do to support—

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. I think the Secretary of State has heard the question.

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I am really sorry to hear of the difficulties facing Mitsubishi Electric’s workforce, and of the uncertainty those workers face during this difficult time. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his efforts to support the workers in his constituency, and we have talked about this issue already. I will commit as a matter of priority to a meeting with the company and its workforce in the coming weeks.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
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I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his new position and congratulate him on his appointment to what I can tell him is a splendid job to hold in government. On an industrial strategy, will he focus his ministerial colleagues’ minds on the potential development of tidal stream generation? That provides an enormous opportunity for our manufacturing sector to create a supply chain that is based here in the United Kingdom, rather than having to bring capacity from overseas.

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I agree with the right hon. Gentleman and congratulate him on his role when he was in the Scotland Office. We hope to emulate much of the work that he did. I have met the European Marine Energy Centre and those involved with tidal resources in his constituency. This is critically important to our net zero ambitions and in getting to clean power by 2030. I am due to meet them when I visit his constituency in the coming weeks, and I will make sure that this is top of the agenda.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
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I congratulate the Secretary of State and welcome him to his place. I associate myself with his earlier remarks, particularly about Scotland’s Olympians and Paralympians. I was delighted to hear the recognition in his first answer of the role that our universities will play in a new industrial strategy, which is going to be vital in Scotland, particularly in the light of the recent admissions about the mess that the Scottish National party has made of our economy in Scotland. That is why I was baffled to see the UK Government cutting £800 million from a supercomputer project at the University of Edinburgh that has the potential to support research on drug discovery, climate change and advanced engineering. What discussions did the Secretary of State have with the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the impact of that?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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As the hon. Lady will know, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did a full audit of Government spending in the first weekend that she was in office, and found a £22 billion black hole. The exascale computer that she talks about was announced by two previous Prime Ministers and two previous Chancellors, and indeed was in the Budget in the early part of this year, but no money was allocated and therefore the project has been paused, pending both the Budget on 30 October and the spending review next year.

Elaine Stewart Portrait Elaine Stewart (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
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3. What steps he plans to take to support working people in Scotland.

Kirsty McNeill Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Kirsty McNeill)
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I am proud to be part of a UK Government that will oversee the biggest upgrade of workers’ rights in a generation. We have set out the new deal for working people and will write it into law within our first 100 days. Over 75 reforms will deliver on a core part of our growth mission to raise living standards, and up to 7,800 workers across Ayrshire stand to benefit from Labour’s plans to make work pay.

Elaine Stewart Portrait Elaine Stewart
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In addition to this Government’s action on the new deal for working people, we should ensure that there is a fair deal for those who powered our country in the past. From my previous work with the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, I know the vital difference that that extra support makes to those communities and their families. Can the Secretary of State give an update on the proposals to end the injustice of the mineworkers’ pension scheme before it is too late?

Kirsty McNeill Portrait Kirsty McNeill
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Mineworkers from my own constituency of Midlothian, from my hon. Friend’s constituency and from across our coalfields powered this country, so I am delighted that our Labour manifesto committed to ending the injustice of the mineworkers’ pension scheme by conducting a review of the unfair surplus arrangements and of transferring the investment reserve fund back to members. I would be delighted to write to my hon. Friend and to other Members representing coalfield seats with a further update in due course.

Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
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I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. He will know that the Scottish Government have their own tax-raising powers. He will remember criticising the Scottish Government for not using them, then criticising the Scottish Government when we did use them. Nevertheless, this generates £1.5 billion of extra revenue in Scotland, and taxing those who earn more slightly more allows us to tax those who earn slightly less even less than is the case in the rest of the United Kingdom. What advice would he give the Chancellor to mirror those efforts in Scotland to have a more progressive and fair tax system for our workers?

Kirsty McNeill Portrait Kirsty McNeill
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The Member will be aware that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said this morning that the tax policies of the Scottish Government have actually cost Scotland money rather than raised it. He will know, too, that this Government have had to undertake a comprehensive audit of spending to make sure that we can clear up the mess that we have inherited. The £22 billion black hole is real, and the Treasury reserves have been spent more than three times over. He will be aware that the focus of the Chancellor is on making sure that we fix the foundations and get the economy back on track.

David Mundell Portrait David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
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4. What steps his Department is taking to support delivery of the Borderlands inclusive growth deal.

Kirsty McNeill Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Kirsty McNeill)
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This Government are committed to delivering economic growth in all parts of the country and we are working closely with local partners and the Scottish Government on the Borderlands growth deal. Together, we are ensuring that it delivers the uplift in economic benefits set out in the deal.

David Mundell Portrait David Mundell
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I congratulate the hon. Lady on her appointment, and I particularly congratulate the Secretary of State on his. Being on your own in this House is a tough gig, and he exercised it in exemplary fashion over seven years, but—as I found—having new colleagues brings a whole new set of challenges of its own.

Will the hon. Lady ensure that the mountain bike centre at the Caerlee mill in Innerleithen is prioritised? There has been a suggestion that the project will not now go ahead in that location. It is vital that we have that centre and it is vital that the mill is refurbished.

Kirsty McNeill Portrait Kirsty McNeill
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The UK Government have pledged £19 million for the mountain bike innovation centre project, as part of the Borderlands growth deal. My officials are working closely with all local partners, including Scottish Borders council, to progress this project. I expect to provide an update on the development of the project shortly.

John Grady Portrait John Grady (Glasgow East) (Lab)
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5. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the effectiveness of the relationship between the UK and Scottish Governments.

Ian Murray Portrait The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
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I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning Glasgow East. The people of Scotland want their two Governments to spend more time fighting for them than fighting each other, which is why resetting the relationship has been a priority for this Government and, indeed, the Prime Minister. I have had numerous productive meetings with Scottish Government Ministers, including the Deputy First Minister. We have had 17 days of visits across Scotland, and seven members of the Cabinet have already visited. There have been dozens of calls between Secretaries of State and Cabinet Secretaries. I look forward to working with the Scottish Government to deliver our shared priorities for the people of Scotland.

John Grady Portrait John Grady
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Scotland’s official economic forecaster, the Scottish Fiscal Commission, has said of the Scottish Budget that

“much of the pressure comes from the Scottish Government’s own decisions.”

Does the Secretary of State agree that the Scottish Government must accept responsibility for the catastrophic state of Scotland’s public finances?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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My hon. Friend is right; the Scottish Fiscal Commission did say that. While this new Government are cleaning up the mess of the previous Conservative Government, the SNP seems to be cleaning up its own mess. In 2023, Audit Scotland said:

“The Scottish Government’s projections suggest that it cannot afford to pay for public services in their current form.”

As we have heard, the IFS said this morning that SNP decisions have reduced the tax take rather than increase it. This is about treating taxpayers’ money with respect and being honest about the tough choices we face. An honest assessment of the SNP Government’s Budget is that these problems have been stored up for years. Tough decisions have been kicked into the long grass, and money has been spent recklessly. It is a problem of the SNP’s own making, and the Scottish people will suffer as the SNP tries to clear it up.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the shadow Secretary of State.

John Lamont Portrait John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
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I, too, start by congratulating both Ministers on their appointment to the Scotland Office. I loved my time at the Scotland Office, and I know they will be very well supported by the Department’s excellent team of officials, some of whom are in the Box today.

Labour plans to end the winter fuel payment, taking money away from elderly people who have worked all their days. Age Scotland has said:

“At minimum, a quarter of a million pensioners in Scotland on the lowest incomes or living in fuel poverty will no longer receive this vital financial support over the winter months, while hundreds of thousands more on modest incomes are going to struggle”.

Labour has cut the winter fuel payment across the UK, and the SNP is doing Labour’s dirty work in Scotland. What does the Minister have to say to the 250,000 elderly Scots who are in poverty and struggling with the decisions of Labour and the SNP?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I welcome the shadow Secretary of State to his new post.

During the inheritance statement a few weeks ago, the Chancellor set out how the current Government are fixing the foundations and trying to clear up the dreadful legacy left by the Government of which the hon. Gentleman was a member. The Chancellor did not want or expect to make these decisions, but they had to be made to try to get the finances in balance and to make sure that we can fix the foundations to deliver on our manifesto. That is the legacy of the previous Government and, as I said in my previous answer, the SNP has made a mess of the public finances over the last 17 years. As we saw in the Scottish Parliament yesterday, the SNP has one hell of a mess to clear up, and it is Scottish pensioners and the Scottish people who will pay the price.

John Lamont Portrait John Lamont
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Labour is taking a leaf from the SNP playbook by refusing to take responsibility for its own actions. This is happening because of choices made by this Labour Government that have been passed on by the SNP in Edinburgh. Labour’s election slogan was all about change and, under this Labour Government, pensioners do not seem to have any change to spare. A woman called Lesley told Age Scotland that the winter fuel payment

“is literally a life saver for us.”

Another person, Brian, told Age Scotland:

“I would freeze without it, or go hungry.”

Is this the change that Labour meant—taking money away from struggling pensioners?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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There seems to be no recognition or apology from the shadow Secretary of State for the legacy his party has left this Government to try to clear up. We knew about the massive overspend in public services by the previous Government, and the audit the Chancellor did in her first weekend in office revealed the £22 billion black hole. These things have to be fixed. We did not expect or want to make such tough decisions, but we have had to make them to fix the foundations of our economy.

Stephen Gethins Portrait Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
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May I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State? I know it has not always been easy and sometimes it has been a lonely path, so I offer my personal congratulations to him on his appointment and to the hon. Member for Midlothian (Kirsty McNeill) on taking her place.

I will take the Secretary of State at face value on improving the relationship between the Scottish and UK Governments, but he will be aware of the devastating consequences of the cuts in the winter fuel payment for pensioners in both our constituencies and across Scotland. In order to work better with the Scottish Government, will he do better than giving them just 90 minutes’ notice next time?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to his place, having won the election for the new constituency of Arbroath and Broughty Ferry. He should look at what the Finance Secretary said in the Scottish Parliament yesterday: she announced half a billion pounds of cuts, including £120 million in health services and £20 million in mental health services, and she has sold the family inheritance by using the ScotWind money to plug the additional funding gaps in the budget. Audit Scotland and the Institute for Fiscal Studies have been clear that this is a problem of the Scottish Government’s own making, so if they want to reset the relationship, they can start by taking responsibility for their own actions.

Stephen Gethins Portrait Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
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6. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on steps to help promote economic growth in Scotland.

Ian Murray Portrait The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
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I am committed to working with the Scottish Government and have already met the Deputy First Minister four times in eight weeks. Resetting the relationship between Scotland’s two Governments is crucial to driving economic growth. Just last week, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in Glasgow and met the First Minister. The Prime Minister has made resetting the relationship a key part of his new way of working in government. He has met with the First Minister to have those discussions and with members of the business community to discuss growing the Scottish economy. It is the choice of all of us to grow the Scottish economy and something we all need to do together.

Stephen Gethins Portrait Stephen Gethins
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The Secretary of State will be aware that macroeconomic policy sits here in Westminster and that decisions taken here have a huge impact. We have worked on this issue before, so does he agree with the SNP that being outside the customs union and the single market is bad for growth in the Scottish economy, or does he agree with the Conservatives and their Reform party colleagues that it has been good for the Scottish economy?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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The hon. Gentleman is taking no responsibility for the decisions that his party makes in the Scottish Government. We saw that yesterday with them plugging the hole in their own public finances. The IFS has been clear that the decisions the Scottish Government have made have taken the tax take down in Scotland, despite being it being the highest taxed part of the country. If we are to reset this relationship, they have to start off by taking accountability and responsibility for their own decisions.

Rachel Taylor Portrait Rachel Taylor (North Warwickshire and Bedworth) (Lab)
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Sport has played an essential role in economic growth in Scotland. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that the legacy of Sir Andy Murray is recognised in Scotland?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I would like to announce to the House that Andy Murray and I are not related, despite the fact that we share the same physique [Laughter.] I assure the House that the Scotland Office and this Government will do all we can to ensure that the wonderful legacy of one of Britain’s best sportspeople of all time is maintained.

Torcuil Crichton Portrait Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
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7. What steps he is taking to support the energy industry in Scotland.

Gordon McKee Portrait Gordon McKee (Glasgow South) (Lab)
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9. What steps he is taking to support the energy industry in Scotland.

Richard Baker Portrait Richard Baker (Glenrothes and Mid Fife) (Lab)
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10. What steps he is taking to support the energy industry in Scotland.

Ian Murray Portrait The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
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Scotland is at the forefront of this Government’s mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower by 2030. We will headquarter Great British Energy, a new publicly owned clean energy company, capitalised with £8.3 billion, in Scotland. That will help create thousands of jobs, and deliver energy security and lower prices permanently for consumers. Just this week, the sixth allocation for the contracts for difference scheme was announced, with over 130 renewable projects awarded contracts and 20% of those projects based in Scotland.

Torcuil Crichton Portrait Torcuil Crichton
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I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. We watched him for many lonely years as he held the fort on his own. He was always outnumbered, but never outgunned. Will he now use the full firepower of the Scotland Office to convince Cabinet colleagues and industry players of the vital role and potential of the Arnish fabrication yard in Stornoway and its sister yard in Methil, both of which are coming up for sale as part of the going to market of Harland & Wolff? Will he assure workers at the Arnish yard and at Stornoway port that they will play a big role in the renewables future and in GB Energy?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and congratulate him on winning the Western Isles. He is Mr Western Isles, and he will be a champion for those islands.

The Government will continue to engage with Harland & Wolff, local MPs and the Scottish Government to monitor the situation and support a resolution that provides long-term certainty for the yards and workforces across the whole UK, with all four yards across the UK being treated as one. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Kirsty McNeill), recently visited the Arnish yard. I have visited the Methil yard twice—once before the election and once during the election—and I have regular meetings with the Deputy First Minister on this issue and hope to meet her again in the coming weeks. We will do all we can to protect these yards.

Gordon McKee Portrait Gordon McKee
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Having spent many years working for my right hon. Friend when he was on the Opposition Benches, may I welcome him to his position as Secretary of State for Scotland? The creation of GB Energy will support 50,000 new jobs across Scotland. It will deliver lower household bills and help us meet our net zero obligations. Given that Glasgow already has a fantastic renewables industry, may I ask what work he has done with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that GB Energy supports jobs in Glasgow?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning his seat in Glasgow South. His question is much better than any that he ever wrote for me.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero is due to make an announcement on the location of GB Energy very soon. I regret that, in the interim, I can say no more than that, although I am sure that my hon. Friend’s words of encouragement in respect of Glasgow will not have escaped the attention of my Cabinet colleagues. I can announce exclusively to the House today, Mr Speaker, that GB Energy will be headquartered in Scotland.

Richard Baker Portrait Richard Baker
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My right hon. Friend will be aware that I have been working closely with Unite, GMB and local management at the Methil yard in my constituency during the restructuring process at Harland & Wolff. Does he agree that 200 skilled workers at Methil and those at Arnish have a vital contribution to make to our ambitions to grow our renewable sector, and also that all stakeholders have a vital role in securing the long-term future of these yards?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning Glenrothes and Mid Fife. I acknowledge his efforts, and those of many hon. Friends in the House and of people in the local area, advocating for the Methil fabrication yard. The yard, along with many others like it, will have a key role in fulfilling our ambition for Scotland and the UK to become a green energy powerhouse. In addition to GB Energy, there is the national wealth fund, which will help unlock further investment opportunities for ports and heavy industry, and manufacturing companies will have a crucial role to play in creating jobs in our transition to net zero. I have been to the Methil plant twice. It has a world-class workforce, and I can assure them that we will do everything we possibly can to make sure that they have a bright future.

John Cooper Portrait John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
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I welcome the Secretary of State to his place and thank him for his generous words about the work of Sir Alister Jack, who was previously in that role. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my consternation this morning that two sanctioned Russian oligarchs now have a share in Harbour Energy, our largest producer of North sea oil and gas? That seems incredible at this time, not least because the company that they are using to have this stake—LetterOne—was forced to divest itself of a broadband company because it was a threat to national security. Can we look again at this decision?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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May I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place and congratulate him on winning his seat? The Foreign Secretary is sitting two seats along from me, and I am sure that he will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said. I am sure that the issue is a concern to everyone in the House, and we will make sure that a written response is given to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the shadow Secretary of State.

John Lamont Portrait John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
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The Rosebank oilfield will provide more than £6 billion of investment in UK-based businesses. The Jackdaw oilfield will cater for the energy needs of 1.4 million UK households. This Labour Government are jeopardising all that investment, energy and jobs by dropping the UK Government’s opposition to the judicial review, which aims to block these vital energy projects. Can the Secretary of State seriously tell the 90,000 people whose jobs rely on oil and gas in Scotland that the future of this crucial industry is secure under Labour, when it is his Government’s policy to oppose all new developments?

Ian Murray Portrait Ian Murray
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I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his question, but he should stop scaremongering, given the 90,000-strong workforce in the North sea. Oil and gas will be with us for decades to come. The Finch decision, to which he refers, was something that this Government had to consider very carefully. The Secretary of State has started a consultation on consenting, which will affect Jackdaw and, indeed, Rosebank, and that should conclude within the next six months.

Brendan O'Hara Portrait Brendan O'Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
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8. If he will make an assessment with Cabinet colleagues of the potential merits of devolving the power to introduce a Scottish work visa scheme to the Scottish Government.

Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
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13. If he will make an assessment with Cabinet colleagues of the potential merits of devolving the power to introduce a Scottish work visa scheme to the Scottish Government.

Kirsty McNeill Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Kirsty McNeill)
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We will strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, and establish a framework for joint working with skills bodies across the UK, the Industrial Strategy Council and the Department for Work and Pensions. The needs of our economy are different across the regions and nations, and different sectors have different needs. Given that skills policy and employment support are devolved, we will work with the Scottish Government when designing workforce plans for different sectors. This will ensure that our migration and skills policies work for every part of the UK.

Brendan O'Hara Portrait Brendan O'Hara
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The tourism and hospitality sectors right across my Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber constituency are desperate for people to come and work, but because of Brexit and the end of freedom of movement, we have the jobs but we do not have the people. The Government know that Scotland needs people, so will the Government reaffirm Jackie Baillie’s commitment—her assurance to voters—and commit to facilitating the creation of a Scottish visa?

Kirsty McNeill Portrait Kirsty McNeill
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We are committed to ensuring that there is effective Scottish representation on the Migration Advisory Committee, and I look forward to working with the Home Office and engaging with sectors on ensuring that immigration works for all parts of the UK.

Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman
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The skilled worker salary threshold and the skills list are simply not working. Will the Minister ensure that the skilled occupation list is fit for purpose in Scotland, and that it works for our energy transition?

Kirsty McNeill Portrait Kirsty McNeill
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Fixing the foundations of our economy is the key to long-term prosperity. That includes future-proofing the economy for all, whether that is long-established families or new arrivals. The Chancellor will set out plans to fix the foundations in the Budget on 30 October.

The Prime Minister was asked—
Bill Esterson Portrait Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
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Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 4 September.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister (Keir Starmer)
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I know the whole House will want to congratulate our Team GB Olympic and Paralympic athletes and support staff for their outstanding achievements so far.

Yesterday’s incident in the channel was shocking and deeply tragic, and our thoughts are with all those who have lost their life, and their families. We must have a renewed determination to end this.

The chair of the Grenfell Tower inquiry, Sir Martin Moore-Bick, has today published the inquiry’s phase 2 report. I know that the thoughts of the whole House will be with the bereaved and the survivors of the Grenfell Tower tragedy, and the residents in the immediate community. I will make a statement shortly after PMQs today.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later.

Bill Esterson Portrait Bill Esterson
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I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks about the loss of life in the channel, and about Grenfell.

The latest suicide figures are a sobering reminder of the misery caused by mental ill health. Maghull Health Park in my constituency is a centre of excellence, with high, medium and low-security hospitals on the same site. The staff do an amazing job, but demand has gone through the roof, especially since the pandemic. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is essential that we give mental and physical healthcare the same level of priority in this country?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, and I thank my hon. Friend for raising this critical issue. So many are affected by the tragedy of suicide. I am pleased to hear about the work that he refers to, but 1 million people are not getting the mental health support that they need. That is why we will recruit 8,500 mental health workers to treat adults and children, and bring forward legislation to modernise the Mental Health Act 1983—an Act that I think is well overdue for modernisation.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the Leader of the Opposition.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak (Richmond and Northallerton) (Con)
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I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the Grenfell community. We will rightly discuss that important issue shortly after Prime Minister’s questions. I also join him in congratulating our record-breaking Olympians and Paralympians on everything that they have achieved. Lastly, I pay tribute to the hard work, bravery and dedication of our police. This summer, in challenging circumstances, they served our communities commendably and kept us all safe.

Government is about making choices, and the new Prime Minister has made a choice: he has chosen to take the winter fuel allowance away from low-income pensioners and give that money to certain unionised workforces in inflation-busting pay rises. Could I ask the Prime Minister, why did he choose train drivers over Britain’s vulnerable pensioners?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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This Government were elected to clear up the mess left by the Conservative party, and to bring about the change that the country desperately needs. Our first job was to audit the books, and what we found was a £22 billion black hole. It is no good their complaining. Richard Hughes, the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, was very clear: he described it as

“one of the largest year-ahead overspends against…forecasts outside of the pandemic”.

Those are his words. We have had to take tough decisions to stabilise the economy and repair the damage, including targeting winter fuel payments while protecting pensioners. Some 800,000 pensioners are not taking up pension credit, and we intend to turn that around. We will align housing benefit and pension credit—something the previous Government deferred year after year—and, because of our commitment to the triple lock, pensions are projected to increase by over £1,000 in the next five years.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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The Prime Minister also inherited inflation back at target, interest rates being cut, low unemployment and, indeed, the fastest-growing economy in the G7. But that is not the point, because the Prime Minister now has to start taking responsibility for his own decisions. If, as he says, the public finances are a priority, it was his decision, and his alone, to award a train driver on £65,000 a pay rise of almost £10,000, and it was also his decision that a pensioner living on just £13,000 will have their winter fuel allowance removed. Can the Prime Minister explain to Britain’s low-income pensioners why he has taken money away from them while at the same time giving more money to highly paid train drivers?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We spent the whole election with the right hon. Gentleman trying to tell the country that everything was fine, and this is the result the Conservatives got: a massive Labour mandate to change the country. If he carries on pretending everything is fine for ordinary people across the country, his party will be in opposition for a very long time. I remind him that we inherited absolute chaos from the Conservatives. We lost an average of 3 million working days a year to strikes under his watch. You cannot fix the economy if the trains do not work, and you cannot fix the economy if the NHS is not working.

When it comes to winter fuel payments, the Conservatives are having a competition, as I understand. They will be voting later on today. From the shadow housing Minister, the right hon. Member for North West Essex (Mrs Badenoch), we found this—she is the favourite, I think, and some Conservative Members will probably be voting for her this afternoon. She said:

“I have people in my constituency telling me that they don’t need the winter fuel payments…Why do we not have a more sophisticated mechanism for means-testing?”.

She is the favourite, I think, in the contest the Conservatives are having.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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The Prime Minister talked about the public finances. The UK’s public finances are more robust than those of almost any other major advanced economy. Here we have it: he inherited a lower deficit than France, America, Italy—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. When I point at someone to be quiet, I mean it. I do not need a reaction back like that.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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The UK currently has a lower deficit than France, America, Italy and Japan; it has the second-lowest debt in the entire G7. The Prime Minister opposed every difficult decision that we took to deliver that, so I certainly am not going to take any lectures from him on that score. He talked about protecting ordinary people; last year, under the Conservative Government, a low-income pensioner with just £13,000 received not only the winter fuel payment, but hundreds of pounds of additional cost of living support, both of which he has now scrapped. Age UK has said that cutting the winter fuel allowance is “the wrong policy”, and only this morning we have learned that the vast majority of the poorest pensioners—pensioners in poverty—will see that vital support removed. Can the Prime Minister tell the House very specifically, and the pensioners who are watching, how much less support a pensioner on £13,000 will receive this winter?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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The right hon. Gentleman talks about tough decisions. It is tough to inherit a £22 billion black hole, which the OBR did not—[Interruption.] That is the inheritance; that is what the Conservatives left. Back when they were in government, they would pretend that it was not there. They would have walked past it and put it in the long grass. We are not going to do that, because we were elected to change this country for the better and stabilise our economy. No Prime Minister wants to do what we have to do in relation to the winter fuel allowance, but we have to take the tough decision to stabilise our economy to ensure that we can grow it for the future. As I have said, we are working hard on pension credit. We are aligning it with housing benefit, which they did not do for years, and over five years it has a projected increase of up to £1,000 for those on pensions—tough decisions that they ducked.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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The Government do not have to choose to take money off low-income pensioners in order to give it to highly paid train drivers. That is a choice that the Prime Minister has made, and it will be clear to any pensioners watching that he simply cannot explain why he has made that choice.

Turning to another important issue, the Government have suspended 30 of the UK’s 350 arms export licences to Israel. It is a decision that the Chief Rabbi says “beggars belief” and will “encourage our shared enemies”. Can the Prime Minister therefore explain how his decision will help to secure the release of the 101 hostages still being held by Hamas?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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May I start by saying that I think the whole House will be shocked by the horrific killing of six hostages in the last few days? I know that I speak for the whole House when I say that. The remaining hostages must be released, and we need a ceasefire to ensure that that can happen, that desperately needed aid can get into the region, and that we can begin the path to a two-state solution.

The right hon. Gentleman asks how we arrived at this decision. He knows very well, because the legal framework is clear. The latest guidance was issued in 2021, under his Government, and that means that licences have to be kept under review, as they were by his Government. I think he probably knows the advice that was given to his Government; he understands the framework. We have carried out the review in the same way and come to a clear legal conclusion, and shared that conclusion and assessment with Parliament.

We will, of course, continue to stand by Israel’s right to self-defence, but it is important that we are a country committed to the international rule of law. That gives us the strength of argument in discussion with our allies on important issues. This is a difficult issue—I recognise that—but it is a legal decision, not a policy decision. The Leader of the Opposition knows the framework—[Interruption.] The Conservatives shout, but they issued the guidance and they know what the test is. That test has been assessed. We have come to a conclusion, and we have put that before the House for it to consider.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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I appreciate the Prime Minister’s answer, but he will know that decisions like this also have important and broader geopolitical implications. He mentioned allies. It is essential that we maintain transatlantic unity in the face of terrorist threats and avoid any perception of splits between our two nations. Can he therefore update the House, or tell it what engagement he had with the United States prior to taking this significant decision?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I acknowledge the importance of working with our allies on all issues, as we have been doing, as I was able to make very clear at the NATO summit that I attended in the early summer. Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman and the House would expect, we have talked this through with our allies. They understand; they have a different legal system. That is the point they made. [Interruption.] The shadow Foreign Secretary chunters. This is a serious issue and it requires serious consideration. The Leader of the Opposition knows the legal framework very well. He also knows that applying the framework—the facts of that framework—and arriving at a decision does not permit me to simply say, “I am not going to implement the legal decision or conclusion that has been reached.” I do not think he is really inviting me to do that.

Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak
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These decisions have not only geopolitical consequences but emotional ones. The Prime Minister took that action on the very same day as the funerals of Israeli hostages murdered by Hamas—something that the Board of Deputies of British Jews described as

“a terrible, terrible message to be sending”.

I hope the Prime Minister understands the hurt that has been caused. Will he take this opportunity to reassure Israel and the Jewish community that the United Kingdom and this House stand behind Israel and its right to self-defence?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Let me be very clear, as I have said before and I say again: we recognise and support Israel’s right of self-defence, and we have taken action in support of that right of self-defence. I have made that repeatedly clear in all my engagements with Israel, across the region and with all our allies; I stand by that.

In relation to licences, this is not an Israel issue; it is the framework for all licences that must be kept under review. It is the same test for all licences, as the Prime Minister knows, and we have applied the law to the facts and come to a legal conclusion. I do not think the Prime Minister—[Interruption.] I do not think the Leader of the Opposition is really inviting me to put that to one side. This is a serious issue; we either comply with international law or we do not. We have strength in our arguments only because we comply with international law. I appreciate that the Conservative party did not think that international law mattered, and that is why we got into the pickle that we did.

Lloyd Hatton Portrait Lloyd Hatton (South Dorset) (Lab)
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Q2. I welcome the Home Office’s decision to close the Bibby Stockholm barge in my constituency. We all know that barge is a gimmick. First, it arrived late; secondly, it cost the taxpayer a fortune; third, it was laden with fire and disease risks; and fourthly, it likely contributed to the death of a 27-year-old asylum seeker on board. Will the Prime Minister reassure my constituents that this and similar unworkable gimmicks will be closed down as we clear up the Conservative party mess?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Unlike the Conservative party, we will not waste money on gimmicks. That is why, within days, we ended the Rwanda scheme and announced the launch of the border security force, and we have been preparing legislation to introduce counter-terrorism powers to tackle gangs. In the first two months, we have removed on planes more than 400 people who had no right to be here. Compare that with the four volunteers sent to Rwanda, which cost £700 million. This is a Government of service, not a Government of gimmicks.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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We come to the leader of the Liberal Democrats.

Ed Davey Portrait Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
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I echo the Prime Minister’s words about the terrible tragedy at Grenfell. I welcome the inquiry and look forward to discussing the statement shortly.

For the past 18 years, Norman has been a full-time carer for his wife, Ros, who has multiple sclerosis and Alzheimer’s disease. Earlier this year, he was forced to go back to work to earn the extra money for the cost of caring for his wife. As their income is just a few hundred pounds above the limit for pension credit, they are set to lose their winter fuel allowance, unless the Prime Minister listens to the Liberal Democrats and others and changes that plan. If he does not, what advice does he have for Norman and Ros, and millions of struggling pensioners, as they face rising heating bills this winter?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the right hon. Member for raising that important point. I know how much he has championed carers, both politically and personally. We have taken a difficult decision—I do not pretend it is not difficult; of course it is—because we have to stabilise the economy. The first thing that the Chancellor did was an audit. She found £22 billion-worth of unfunded spending commitments. We cannot walk past that; we cannot pretend that it does not exist—that is what the last Government did. We have to take tough decisions. We will put in all the support that we can, and will talk to the right hon. Gentleman about it, but we have to take the tough decisions on this. The Conservatives walked away from those decisions, and that is what got us into this mess in the first place. We cannot grow and fix our economy unless we stabilise it first.

Ed Davey Portrait Ed Davey
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We recognise the appalling financial problems left to the Prime Minister by the last Conservative Government, but no one understands the difficult decisions required to balance the books as much as unpaid family carers such as Norman. Many millions of pensioners have struggled over recent years thanks to the last Government—the number who cannot afford to heat their homes has doubled since 2019—so will the Prime Minister support our campaign for more urgent action to invest in insulation and renewables, so that we can help pensioners and all families make it cheaper to heat their homes every winter?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, of course. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that 800,000 pensioners are not claiming pension credit, which of course then deals with the winter fuel payment. That is why we are taking so much care to ensure we get those pensioners on to pension credit. Again, aligning housing benefit with pension credit—something that the last Government left undone for years—will make a massive difference, and of course there is the triple lock, which over five years will mean that pensions are expected to rise by up to £1,000.

Yasmin Qureshi Portrait Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South and Walkden) (Lab)
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Q3. Four years ago, the previous Government ordered a review into the hormone pregnancy test drug Primodos, and found that it had caused “avoidable harm”. Primodos was given to women in the 1960s and ‘70s, and resulted in many babies being born with severe disabilities. For the past 12 years, I have stood in this Parliament and pleaded repeatedly with the last Government to do the right thing. Will the Prime Minister commit to a fresh approach on this issue, and will he meet with me and the campaigner Marie Lyon to discuss how we can give closure to the families who have been denied justice for the past 50 years?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and for her work on the all-party parliamentary group on hormone pregnancy tests. I am sympathetic to the families who believe their children suffered from those tests, and committed to reviewing any new evidence that comes to light. At the moment, the Department of Health and Social Care is reviewing a publication from Professor Danielsson, and we will follow the results of that review. I am happy to ensure that the Health Minister meets my hon. Friend to discuss this matter further.

Gavin Robinson Portrait Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
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I thank the Prime Minister for visiting Northern Ireland within the past fortnight, and particularly for the time he spent with injured officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He will know of their courage, but he will also know of the dogged determination of our chief constable, Jon Boutcher, in his desire to see adequate resourcing for his officers who not only stand for law and order in Northern Ireland, but stand in the face of racism, violence, and an ongoing national security threat from dissident republicans. May I therefore ask the Prime Minister to earnestly and urgently engage in a discussion about uplifting the national security grant afforded to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and to ensure that the PSNI can face the challenges that we need them to face head on?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that question. It was important for me to go to Belfast to meet the injured officers and simply to say thank you for what they are doing, and of course, to recognise the impact on their families. I recognise the difficult financial position that the PSNI faces, and the chief constable and I have spoken about this issue on more than one occasion, as Members would expect. Predominantly, it is for the Justice Minister and the Executive to set the PSNI’s budget, and how the chief constable allocates that budget is an operational matter for him, but I have been talking to him about what further support might be possible, because I realise just how important it is to him, to the PSNI and to Northern Ireland more generally.

Emma Foody Portrait Emma Foody (Cramlington and Killingworth) (Lab/Co-op)
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Q4. Last week, ticket-selling websites such as Ticketmaster left millions of Oasis fans furious, but worse still came minutes later, when tickets started to be relisted online for thousands of pounds. This profiteering at fans’ expense is not a one-off, and the Co-operative party is campaigning for a new licensing body with real teeth to tackle this online touting. Does the Prime Minister agree that fans should be at the heart of live music, and that urgent action is needed to protect fans against this horrid practice?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, I do. First, it is great that Oasis are back together—from what I have determined, about half the country was probably queuing for tickets over the weekend—but it is depressing to hear of price hikes. I am committed to putting fans at the heart of music and ending extortionate resales, and we are starting a consultation to work out how best we can do that.

Harriet Cross Portrait Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
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Q5. Offshore Energies UK reports that the Government’s proposed windfall tax increases will cost our economy £13 billion, risk 35,000 jobs and see investment in the North sea slashed from £14.1 billion to just £2.3 billion by 2029. It also suggests that there will be a £12 billion cost in tax revenues. How does this proposal chime with the Prime Minister’s goal of economic growth, and will he reverse this tax increase, which industry leaders are calling economic suicide for the oil and gas sector?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We are committed to the necessary transition to renewable energy, which will lead to cheaper energy, energy independence and the jobs of the future. But let me be clear: oil and gas will play their part for many years to come, and that is why I have been clear about the support that we have for them. I am sure the hon. Member and others will want to celebrate the fact that, just this week, contracts for difference secured a record 131 new clean energy projects—enough to power 11 million homes—and they are the jobs of the future.

Luke Charters Portrait Mr Luke Charters (York Outer) (Lab)
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Q6. The Prime Minister will remember visiting my constituency in June, when we toured Germany Beck, a fantastic development of 600 new homes, but because of Tory dither and delay, it took the best part of a decade for that site to get through planning. [Interruption.] Opposition Members can grumble all they want, but my families are paying the price for their mistakes. Can the Prime Minister reassure me that this Government will speed up the planning process so that we get more homes built, and will one of his Ministers meet me to discuss the housing crisis in York?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes. I remember that visit well, and was struck by the delays in planning because the system was broken by the previous Government. We will deliver 1.5 million new homes, drive economic growth and fulfil the dream of home ownership shattered for 14 years under the former Government. That means changing the planning rules—a tough decision they were not prepared to make—to make that happen and to grow our economy.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
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Q8. Last month, SSE, the operators of the new Viking energy wind farm in Shetland, was paid £2 million in order not to generate any electricity from it. Is there not something badly wrong with an energy market that pays big corporates not to produce electricity while the people living among the turbines endure some of the highest levels of fuel poverty in the country? Will the Prime Minister and the Government now look seriously at the idea of an islands tariff, so that islands communities such as those represented by me and his hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) may see some genuine benefit for the community from hosting such renewable energy developments?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising this issue, which is obviously a considerable concern to him and his constituents. National Grid, as he knows, does balance the grid by occasionally requesting some generators to stop when there is not enough capacity on the network. That is not good enough. That is not acceptable, for the reasons set out in his question. It is a problem that was not fixed over the last 14 years, but a problem we are determined to fix as we go forward. I will make sure that a relevant Minister speaks to him about the particular issue in his constituency.

Peter Prinsley Portrait Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
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Q7. As a surgeon from East Anglia, I welcome the measures the new Government have taken to fulfil their mission to fix the NHS. In my constituency of Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, the West Suffolk hospital is badly affected by RAAC—reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete—just like the James Paget hospital in Norfolk, where I have worked for nearly 30 years. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that the RAAC hospitals must be priorities as the new Government undertake their review of the new hospital programme?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend, who brings huge expertise to this area, for his question. We have to reset the new hospital programme and put it on a sustainable footing. The last Government promised 40 new hospitals. The problem is there were not 40, they were not new and some of them were not even hospitals. Hospitals with RAAC, including West Suffolk hospital, must be a priority, so we are reviewing the programme, and the Secretary of State will update Parliament as soon as possible.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
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Q10. After 14 miserable years of the worst Tory Government in modern times, the best this Prime Minister can offer the British people is, “Things can only get worse.” For him and his calamitous opinion ratings that is probably true, but why does he think he has such an unprecedented fall in his popularity? Is it his attacks on the pensioners? Is it leaving children in poverty? Is it the re-emergence of Labour cronyism, or is it because his austerity is even worse than the Conservative variety?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I remember when Scottish National party Members used to sit at the front, but they are now a long way up and there are very few of them, so I do not think we need lectures on popularity and winning elections.

Ashley Dalton Portrait Ashley Dalton (West Lancashire) (Lab)
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Q9. I welcome this week’s news of the changes that the Government plan on Ofsted, including the removal of single-word judgments. This is great news for headteachers in West Lancashire who have raised the issue with me along with other issues about Ofsted, and for parents, who will have more transparency on the performance of schools. How does the Prime Minister see those changes developing a more positive relationship between Ofsted, Government and schools, and improving standards so that all our young people thrive?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We are committed to the best education for every child, whatever their background and wherever they come from. The current single grade does not work well. That is why we are going to have a richer dashboard, which will give parents more information and allow intervention more quickly, and why it has been so warmly welcomed across the country.

Rebecca Paul Portrait Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)
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Q12. I am new to this House, but I know that we all want our pensioners to live with dignity and security. In my constituency around 17,000 pensioners are expected to lose their winter fuel payment this year. Of most concern are those just above the pension credit threshold, who will be hardest hit. Will the Prime Minister consider broadening eligibility for the winter fuel payment, so that those low-income pensioners who rely on it to stay warm can continue to benefit?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I welcome the hon. Lady to her place. Reigate is obviously a place I know very well, as she knows. The reality is this: that decision has been taken because of the £22 billion black hole, so responsibility for the decision lies with the party that broke the economy. There is a reason we have a mandate for change, and a reason why Conservative Members are sitting on the Opposition Benches: it is because they broke the economy, and I am not going to apologise for clearing up the mess that they left.

Deirdre Costigan Portrait Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)
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Q11. After 14 years of Conservative failure, crime and street drinking blight areas of Southall town centre, West Ealing and Hanwell Broadway in my constituency. Will the Prime Minister set out how his Government will take action to ensure that our town centres are transformed into places where my constituents can finally feel safe again?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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This is an important issue. I have heard too many people say that antisocial behaviour is some sort of low-level issue, but it really impacts lives across the country and we have to tackle it. That is why we will put more police on the streets, have more effective powers to deal with antisocial behaviour, and introduce Young Futures programmes to divert young people who are getting into trouble.

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
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Q14. If he will visit Haygrove School in Bridgwater.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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The Schools Minister will be happy to visit the hon. Member’s constituency.

Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox
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I thank the Prime Minister for his answer. Haygrove School is one of the top-performing schools in Somerset, but it is unfortunately one of those built by Caledonian Modular and now condemned as unsafe. I am grateful for the meeting with the Schools Minister, but can the Prime Minister give Haygrove and the other schools affected an assurance that they will be rebuilt, and quickly, because those pupils and staff are still working in portacabins?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I am grateful, and I recognise how serious an issue this is and why the hon. Member raises it. It is of real importance. The Minister will visit, and the Department for Education is pursuing all available avenues for redress against the parties responsible for the issues at the school. I will ensure that the Minister is fully briefed and has a full discussion about that when the visit takes place.

Shaun Davies Portrait Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab)
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Q13. I am a proud MP for a new town, but over the past 14 years, Telford has lost its A&E and has fewer police officers, GPs and teachers per head. We have also had 40% cuts to our local government budgets. Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister back places such as Telford, rather than overlook us as has been the case over the past 14 years?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue, and I know he will be a really strong champion for his constituency. We are a Government who will be based on action, not slogans, and that is why we will have local growth plans, improved public services and investment in transport links. We will fix the mess that the Conservatives left after 14 years, and we will devolve power to those with skin in the game.

Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
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Q15. In the past five years, there have been 10 fatal accidents on the A66 along the short stretch in the Eden valley in Westmorland. In our community, we are naturally deeply concerned that the vital A66 northern trans-Pennine project, which would make the roads considerably safer, has been put under review by this Government. Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity now to end the uncertainty today, commit to this project and save lives?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this question about fatalities on roads, which are a very serious issue on the A66 and other roads across the country. We have inherited a broken economy, and we have to review what we are spending money on. We are going through that review, and we will report back as soon as we can.

Gurinder Singh Josan Portrait Gurinder Josan (Smethwick) (Lab)
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Will the Prime Minister join me in sending condolences to the family of Jahziah Coke, a 13-year-old boy who was stabbed and tragically killed in my constituency? Does he share my concern about the prevalence of young people carrying knives? What more can be done to end this scourge that is destroying families and communities?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I am sure I speak for the whole House in saying that our thoughts are with Jahziah’s family at this difficult time. This is tragic, it is senseless and his age just absolutely makes one shudder. Our mission is to halve knife crime. Zombie-style knives and zombie-style machetes will be banned from 24 September, and there is a surrender scheme, which started on 26 August. We are doing a rapid review of the online sale of knives, which is often a problem in these cases. We will pursue that with determination, and I invite everybody across the House, in light of this and so many other tragic cases, to join with us on that mission.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Final question.

Karen Bradley Portrait Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
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Those of us from Staffordshire Moorlands are immensely proud of our beautiful area and unique identity. Can the Prime Minister guarantee that we will not be forced into a devolution deal or local government reorganisation against our will?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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It is very important that local people have a say, but it is equally important that we devolve to those who have skin in the game. One of the ways in which we can restart our economy is by making sure that those with skin in the game take the decisions that are relevant to them and their area.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry Phase 2 Report

Wednesday 4th September 2024

(3 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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12:39
Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister (Keir Starmer)
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This morning, Sir Martin Moore-Bick published the final report of the Grenfell Tower inquiry. I am sure the whole House will join me in thanking him, the members of the inquiry and the whole team for their dedicated work.

I want to speak directly to the bereaved families, the survivors, and those in the immediate Grenfell community, some of whom are with us in the Gallery today. Sir Martin concluded this morning—I am afraid that there is no way of repeating this that will not be painful—that

“the simple truth is that the deaths that occurred were all avoidable and that those who lived in the tower were badly failed over a number of years and in a number of different ways”

by, as the report lays out in full, just about every institution responsible for ensuring their safety. In the face of an injustice so painful and so deserving of anger, words can begin to lose their meaning, after seven years still waiting for the justice that you deserve. I want to say very clearly, on behalf of the country, that you have been let down so badly before, during and in the aftermath of this tragedy.

While Sir Martin sets out a catalogue of appalling industry failures, for which there must now be full accountability, he also finds

“decades of failure by central government”.

He concludes:

“In the years between the fire at Knowsley Heights in 1991 and the fire at Grenfell Tower in 2017 there were many opportunities for the government to identify the risks posed by the use of combustible cladding panels and insulation…by 2016, the department was well aware of those risks, but failed to act on what it knew.”

Further, he finds:

“The department itself was poorly run”

and

“the government’s deregulatory agenda…dominated the department’s thinking to such an extent that even matters affecting the safety of life were ignored, delayed or disregarded.”

So I want to start with an apology on behalf of the British state to each and every one of you, and indeed to all the families affected by this tragedy. It should never have happened. The country failed to discharge its most fundamental duty to protect you and your loved ones—the people we are here to serve—and I am deeply sorry. I also want to express my admiration for the strength it must have taken to relive those events when giving your evidence to the inquiry, and indeed to see written down today the circumstances that led to the deaths of your loved ones.

After all that you have been through, you may feel that you are always one step away from another betrayal. I get that, and I know that I cannot change that with just words today. But what I can say is that I listened carefully to one of the members of the inquiry, Ali Akbor, this morning. He said this:

“What is needed is for those with responsibility for building safety to reflect and to treat Grenfell as a touchstone in all that they do in the future.”

I consider myself someone responsible for building safety, and that is exactly what I will do and what I will demand of this Government.

Today is a long-awaited day of truth. It must now lead to a day of justice—justice for the victims and the families of Grenfell—but also a moment to reflect on the state of social justice in our country and a chance for this Government of service to turn the page. That is because this tragedy poses fundamental questions about the kind of country we are. A country where the voices of working-class people and those of colour have been repeatedly ignored and dismissed. A country where tenants of a social housing block in one of the richest parts of the land are treated like second-class citizens, shamefully dismissed, in the words of one survivor, as

“people with needs and problems”

and not respected as citizens, as people who contribute to Britain, who are part of Britain and who belong in Britain. Unbelievably, that continued even after the tragedy. Sir Martin highlights:

“Certain aspects of the response demonstrated a marked lack of respect for human decency and dignity and left many of those immediately affected feeling abandoned by authority and utterly helpless.”

That alone should make anyone who feels any affinity towards justice bristle with anger. Sir Martin continues that he finds

“systematic dishonesty on the part of those who made and sold the rainscreen cladding panels and insulation products.”

He goes on to say:

“They engaged in deliberate and sustained strategies to manipulate the testing processes, misrepresent test data and mislead the market.”

Sir Martin also cites

“a complete failure on the part of the LABC”—

the Local Authority Building Control—

“over a number of years to take basic steps to ensure that the certificates it issued…were technically accurate.”

He finds that the work of the Building Research Establishment

“was marred by unprofessional conduct, inadequate practices, a lack of effective oversight, poor reporting and a lack of scientific rigour”

and that the tenant management organisation

“must…bear a share of the blame”.

Its only fire safety assessor

“had misrepresented his experience and qualifications (some of which he had invented) and was ill-qualified to carry out fire risk assessments on buildings of the size and complexity of Grenfell Tower”.

He also finds

“a chronic lack of effective management and leadership”

on behalf of the London Fire Brigade, with tragic consequences on the night of the fire.

In the light of such findings, it is imperative that there is full accountability, including through the criminal justice process, and that this happens as swiftly as possible. I can tell the House today that this Government will write to all companies found by the inquiry to have been part of these horrific failings, as the first step to stopping them being awarded Government contracts. We will, of course, support the Metropolitan police and the prosecutors as they complete their investigations. But it is vital that as we respond to this report today, we do not do or say anything that could compromise any future prosecution, because the greatest injustice of all would be for the victims and all those affected not to get the justice that they deserve.

There must also be more radical action to stop something like this from ever happening again. One of the most extraordinary qualities of the Grenfell community is their determination to look forward. They are fighting not only for justice for themselves but to ensure that no other community suffers as they have done.

Some important reforms have taken place in the last seven years, which we supported in opposition, including banning combustible cladding, new oversight of building control, a new safety regime for all residential buildings over 18 metres, new legal requirements on social landlords, and making sure that fire and rescue services are trained and equipped to handle large-scale incidents, including moving from “stay put” to “get out” when needed. We are now addressing the recommendation from Sir Martin’s first report to introduce a new residential personal emergency evacuation plan policy for anyone whose ability to evacuate could be compromised, with funding for those renting in social housing.

We will look at all 58 of Sir Martin’s recommendations in detail. There will be a debate on the floor of this House. We will respond in full to the inquiry’s recommendations within six months, and we will update Parliament annually on our progress against every commitment we make. But there are some things I can say right now. There are still buildings today with unsafe cladding. The speed at which this is being addressed is far, far too slow. We only have to look at the fire in Dagenham last week—a building that was still in the process of having its cladding removed. This must be a moment of change. We will take the necessary steps to speed this up. We will be willing to force freeholders to assess their buildings and enter remediation schemes within set timescales, with a legal requirement to force action if that is what it takes. We will set out further steps on remediation this autumn.

We will also reform the construction products industry that made this fatal cladding, so homes are made of safe materials and those who compromise that safety will face the consequences. We will ensure that tenants and their leaseholders can never again be ignored, and that social landlords are held to account for the decency and safety of their homes. As the Government tackle the most acute housing crisis in living memory, building 1.5 million new homes across the country, we will ensure those homes are safe, secure and built to the highest standards; places of security, health and wellbeing that serve the needs of residents and their wider communities, because a safe and decent home is a human right and a basic expectation, and the provision of that right should never be undermined by the reckless pursuit of greed. One of the tragedies of Grenfell is that this is a community that nurtured so much of what we want from housing: people who had made the Tower their home and were entitled to a place of safety and security, not a deathtrap. And yet, time and again they were ignored.

Two weeks ago, I made a private visit to Grenfell Tower. I laid a wreath at the memorial wall and affirmed the Government’s commitment to the work of the Memorial Commission, delivering a permanent memorial on the site through a process led by the Grenfell community. As I walked down that narrow staircase from the 23rd floor and looked at walls burned by 1,000-degree heat, I got just a sense of how utterly, utterly terrifying it must have been. As I saw examples of the cladding on the outside of the building and listened to descriptions of the catastrophic and completely avoidable failures of that fatal refurbishment, I felt just a sense of the anger that now rises through that building. It left me a with a profound and very personal determination to make the legacy of Grenfell Tower one of the defining changes to our country that I want to make as Prime Minister.

To the families, the survivors and the immediate community, we will support you now and always—especially those who were children. In the memory of your loved ones, we will deliver a generational shift in the safety and quality of housing for everyone in this country. In the memory of Grenfell, we will change our country; not just a change in policy and regulation, although that must of course take place, but a profound shift in culture and behaviour, a rebalancing of power that gives voice and respect to every citizen, whoever they are and wherever they live.

We will bring the full power of government to bear on this task, because that is the responsibility of service and the duty we owe to the memory of every one of the 72. In that spirit, I commend this statement to the House.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the Leader of the Opposition.

12:52
Rishi Sunak Portrait Rishi Sunak (Richmond and Northallerton) (Con)
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I thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of the statement, especially given the timing of Prime Minister’s question time. I associate myself and everyone on this side of the House with the Prime Minister’s powerful words regarding the pain of the bereaved families, survivors and all those affected the tragic events surrounding Grenfell Tower. Many are with us today in the Gallery, and I want to pay tribute to their strength and patience in waiting for this moment. It is not hyperbole to say that we would not be here today without them. It was their tenacity and strength that brought the truth to light. For that, they deserve our thanks. Their search for truth and justice is a noble one and has our full support. While the Grenfell community’s loss will have left a hole that nothing will ever be able to fill, I hope that whatever healing is possible from today, each and every one of them takes some small measure of it. I know they will never forget the 72 people who tragically lost their lives, and nor shall we.

Today’s publication, as the Prime Minister said, is, to put it bluntly, a damning indictment of over 30 years of successive state failures, stretching as far back as Knowsley Heights in 1991 and then multiple incidents from there. Sir Martin Moore-Bick and the work of the inquiry have painted a picture of systemic indifference, failure and, in some notable cases, dishonesty and greed. Sir Martin and the team working on the inquiry are to be commended for the depth and rigour of their work. While such a comprehensive report as has been published today deserves to be considered in full, and I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitments for time in the House to do that, there are some immediate points that I feel will command support across the House and that I will address to the Prime Minister.

First, the work to remediate and, where possible, identify new at-risk buildings must continue if we are to meet, as I am confident the whole House would agree, the former right hon. Member for Maidenhead’s pledge that no such tragedy could occur again. I know that task is not a simple one and I thank the Prime Minister for recognising the importance of this issue. A significant barrier to making progress quicker is financial liability. That was an issue I was all too aware of when I became Chancellor and why one of the first major spending decisions I made was the creation of a new £1 billion fund to pay for remediation works in public and private buildings affected by materials beyond dangerous ACM cladding. The previous Government’s cladding safety scheme has ensured an additional £5.1 billion is available to support remediation work, coming from a combination of a developer contribution and a building safety levy. I ask the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to give due consideration to any further requests, especially with the upcoming fiscal event towards the end of October.

The second point I am confident the Prime Minister would agree on is the need to maintain and update our legal and regulatory framework to keep pace with changes in materials, construction and supply. The last Parliament passed the Fire Safety Act 2021 and the Building Safety Act 2022. I acknowledge, as the Prime Minister said, that he worked constructively with the then Government to deliver those improvements. These pieces of legislation comprehensively reformed our fire safety and building regulation regimes and ensured that a new building safety regulator, located in the Health and Safety Executive, was created. But I also know that these are stepping stones towards a fire and building safety regime that remains persistently fit for purpose. In particular, I urge the Prime Minister to give special attention to the recommendations in today’s report, especially its call for: more regular updating of approved document B; a single regulator; a sole Secretary of State responsible, to end the fragmentation of Whitehall responsibilities; and a new chief construction adviser. I want the Prime Minister to know that should he deem that further legislation is required to support proportionate and necessary measures to protect the public, while protecting leaseholders from excessive cost, we will work collegiately with him to deliver that.

Thirdly, allied to the need for continued improvement in the legal and regulatory frameworks, the report also shines a light on the significant failures of oversight. Those responsible for ensuring the independence and rigour of testing and compliance were found by this report to have had those very things compromised. In particular, the BRE in its work with suppliers in part enabled what Sir Martin Moore-Bick’s report has plainly described as systematically dishonest behaviour on the part of suppliers. So, I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to continue to support the Metropolitan police and the Crown Prosecution Service in pursuing any appropriate criminal charges against a small number of developers and contractors who knowingly and fraudulently cut corners on building safety for greed and financial gain.

I do not want to let this moment pass without also acknowledging the local failures today’s report highlights, whether from: the tenant management organisation responsible for the building itself, which allowed relationships with those living in Grenfell Tower to become so broken that tenants were marginalised and, at worst, ignored; the repeated fire safety reports that were not acted on; the lack of effective management and leadership at London Fire Brigade; or the local council, which had a lack of adequate oversight into the management and maintenance of the building, and the cares and concerns of those living in it.

There will be further lessons to learn from this inquiry. There will be difficult questions for all those responsible, acting over a long period of time. I know the Prime Minister will agree that we must approach those questions with the honesty and directness they deserve.

Let me conclude. At the time, the former right hon. Member for Maidenhead apologised to the victims for what she described as failures at a local and national level in response to the fire. I share in those same words still. I think today, however, demands more. As a Prime Minister, current or former, you are a custodian of the state. Its failures, whether on your watch or not, are something that you feel deeply. To that end, I want to extend my deepest apologies to the families and victims of the Grenfell Tower tragedy. The state let you down, and it must never do so again. The mission to ensure that no such tragedy can ever happen again is one that I know the whole House supports, but more than that, it is part of a legacy that we must create and maintain, so that our actions meet the full meaning of our words.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the Leader of the Opposition for the tone and substance of his response. We do owe it to the victims, their families and the community to work together to ensure that they get the justice they deserve, and that we make this a turning point that means this will never happen again. There will be a debate in which the whole House can participate, because although hon. Members have an opportunity to ask questions today, they will also want to make substantive contributions on this tragic issue and, no doubt, on issues of concern in their own constituencies relating to cladding and fire safety, so we will ensure that time is available.

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s approach to working jointly, as we were able to do ourselves when we were in opposition. In particular, the remediation work is behind schedule and needs to speed up, and we must do all we can in that regard. Financial liability is obviously an issue, and we will look into the sufficiency of that. As for the legal and regulatory framework, obviously changes have already been made, but I think further changes will be necessary, and we will share those with the Opposition as soon as we have some realistic proposals to put before the House. If we can then join together in passing the necessary legislation as quickly as possible, it will be a mark of our determination to treat this as a turning point.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s comments on criminal proceedings. We clearly do not want to prejudice those proceedings, but I do not think anyone could read this report and not be absolutely shocked by the description of some of the dishonesty—this was not just incompetence but dishonesty: the manipulation of tests and the market. It is not possible to read about that in the pages of this report and not have a renewed determination to ensure that justice is delivered for those who deserve that justice.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. I thank the Prime Minister for his remarks about the need for caution in comments relating to particular legal cases or inquests. I repeat the waiver that I granted under the sub judice rule on 21 June 2022, and I appeal to all Members absolutely to speak, but to be cautious about what they say.

I now call the Mother of the House.

Diane Abbott Portrait Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
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Does the Prime Minister recognise how painful it must be for the Grenfell community to have had that tower looming over them for seven years, and for it to have taken seven years even to reach this stage? Having visited Grenfell, he will be aware that most of the 72 who died were among the most marginalised, and that they were largely people of migrant heritage. Can he give an assurance that the bereaved will receive all the support they need, including financial support, and can he also give an assurance that it will not take another seven years to bring those responsible to justice?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my right hon. Friend for that question. She is absolutely right to focus on the community and the bereaved. Decisions on a memorial, whatever form it takes, must be taken in consultation with the community, and I give an absolute commitment that we will do that as well as providing the support that they need. During my visit, I had a sense—just a small sense—of just how painful this must have been and continues to be. We cannot allow another seven years to pass before we take the necessary action.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the leader of the Liberal Democrats.

Ed Davey Portrait Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his extremely powerful comments and associate my party with all of them. The Grenfell disaster is a tragedy that shames our whole society. The report lays bare failings of Governments of all parties over decades, and on behalf of my party, I am sorry. We must all learn from it and do everything we can to change the system, in order to prevent more horrifying tragedies like this from happening in the future.

It is right that we pause today and remember the 72 people who lost their lives, as well as the survivors and bereaved families and friends who have fought so long and so hard for justice. This is their day. They have waited far too long to get the truth, and many will remain frustrated that even after today they will still be waiting for justice and meaningful action. Let me therefore raise three of the many issues that the families have raised.

First, in order to get the justice that the families crave, criminality must be investigated, tried and punished, whether it is corporate manslaughter, fraud or misconduct in public office. Will the Prime Minister confirm that the police, prosecutors and courts will have all the resources they need to bring those responsible swiftly to justice?

Secondly, what more can the Prime Minister do—what more can we all do—to bring about greater urgency when it comes to acting on all these recommendations, so that the report does not just gather dust on a Whitehall shelf? Even now, seven years on, essential work to make more than 2,300 buildings safe has not even started. Can the Prime Minister tell the House what more will be done to remove dangerous cladding as quickly as possible, forcing those responsible to pay, not the tenants and leaseholders?

Finally, we must tackle the big systemic issues that come up time and again in such scandals, from Hillsborough to Horizon to infected blood. Like the victims of other scandals, the bereaved and survivors of Grenfell have called for a duty of candour on public officials, and we welcomed its inclusion in the King’s Speech. Can the Prime Minister tell us when that legislation will be published, and whether the duty will cover all public officials?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I join the right hon. Gentleman in the sense that this has taken too long and has been too hard, and it is not unique in that respect when it comes to injustices of this kind. Let me deal with his specific points. It is really important that criminality is fully investigated, and we will give the relevant authorities all the support and resources necessary. We will respond as quickly as possible to the report’s recommendations, within six months. It is a long report and there are many recommendations, and I think it is right that we take time to look through them, consider how they can complied with and then come back to the House, and come back to the House annually, to assess the progress that we are making and to be held to account on it. There is no doubt that the removal of cladding needs to be speeded up, and measures have already been taken in that regard.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Hillsborough law, which featured in the King’s Speech. The duty of candour is very important. We will look at it again in the light of the report, because although we are determined to introduce the legislation as quickly as we can—it is long overdue—I think, having read some of the report already, that it is worth reflecting and ensuring that what is in the report is incorporated in whatever law we being forward.

Joe Powell Portrait Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
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As we have heard, it is now more than seven years since 72 people lost their lives in Grenfell Tower in north Kensington. As we have heard again today, the disaster was entirely foreseen and entirely preventable. It was the result of organisations and individuals being systemically dishonest and putting profit before people’s lives. I pay tribute to the next of kin, the bereaved and the survivors, including those who are here today, for their resilience and strength; this is a very painful day for the community.

The shameless merry-go-round of buck-passing that has happened for the past seven years must now come to an end, so I thank the Prime Minister for his personal commitment to driving lasting change and holding people accountable. Can he assure me that the Government will now do everything in their power to ensure that criminal prosecutions take place as soon as possible? Can he commit to ensuring that companies identified in the report are excluded from public contracts, are held to account to the full extent of the law, and pay their full weight of the cost of the building safety remedial work that is necessary? Can he also ensure that the phase 2 recommendations for central Government will be a blueprint for real change, and that their implementation will be swift and as comprehensive as possible, so that we can truly say that a tragedy like Grenfell will not happen again?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I can confirm that we will do everything to ensure that there is full accountability, including criminal accountability, where appropriate. I remind the House—as you have done, Mr Speaker—that notwithstanding the strong findings in the report, the last thing that the victims, the bereaved and the community want or need is for anything to go wrong with possible legal proceedings. We must all bear that in mind, but I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s sentiment. On the contracts, I stand by what I said in my statement.

I concur with my hon. Friend on the resilience and strength of the victims, the families, the survivors and the community. It must have been really hard to give evidence to the inquiry, and it must be really hard to read the details of what happened in this long report. It must be even harder still to read the conclusions about the failures and the dishonesty, so we must pay respect to their resilience and strength.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
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Very sadly, for most of us this report is not a surprise, because many of the things that were being said over many years have now come to fruition in its recommendations. As the Prime Minister has rightly alluded to, it is clear that the conspiracy around the testing of products must be subject to criminal proceedings. Will he therefore look immediately at some of the recommendations that affect the Government: namely, bringing responsibility under one Department, with one Minister being responsible and answerable to this House, to make sure that action is taken? Secondly, will he ensure that a single regulator is introduced to make sure that the various different aspects that were clearly wrong do not occur again?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, which is really important. We will report back on all the recommendations within six months, but if we can act more quickly on some of them, we will do so straightaway. We have six months to report back, but if there are recommendations that we can accept and move forward, we will do so rather than wait for the end of the six-month period, because it is very important, for all the reasons that he powerfully put across.

Andy Slaughter Portrait Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his comments on the community in north Kensington, which is also my community in Shepherd’s Bush and Hammersmith. Grenfell Tower is a daily presence not only for the survivors and the families of victims, but for all of us in west London, particularly those who live in the many high-rise buildings surrounding Grenfell. Will the Prime Minister ensure that all housing is built safe and made safe from the risk of fire, which his predecessors failed to do? Above all, will he pledge that those complicit in the Grenfell fire are brought to justice so that there is no mistake about their guilt or their punishment?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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It is important that there is full accountability and that, where appropriate, people are brought to justice—that is the least that the families, the survivors, the bereaved and the community deserve. I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s point about the wider community. This tragedy has impacted the wider community, as he well knows from his work as the constituency MP. I saw a bit of that when I visited. There are various writings on the wall around the memorial, where people from the area have recorded their private views, and they are an important read for anybody who wants to be in a position of leadership.

Bernard Jenkin Portrait Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement, and I also thank Sir Martin Moore-Bick.

May I refer the Prime Minister to recommendation 113.58? After Piper Alpha, an independent offshore safety investigation body was established. After the Paddington rail crash, we established the independent Rail Accident Investigation Board. Former Fire and Housing Minister Nick Raynsford, former chief investigator of the air accidents investigation branch Keith Conradi, a leading building control specialist and I made a submission to the inquiry recommending that there should be independent incident investigation of serious building failures of this nature, which would be able to conduct an investigation far more quickly than a public inquiry and with accumulated expertise. However, that role has been left to the London Fire Brigade, which has been heavily criticised and would therefore be conflicted in any investigation of a similar incident. That is why the LFB was not put in charge of investigating this incident in the first place. Could we come and see the Prime Minister about this very serious matter?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the hon. Member for raising a really serious issue. We will, of course, look at that recommendation. We will report to the House, and I will make sure that a meeting is set up so that he is able to input directly into our considerations on that particular recommendation and any others that he has concerns about.

Florence Eshalomi Portrait Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green) (Lab/Co-op)
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First and foremost, today is about the families of Grenfell and the 72 people who died. For them, today is another emotionally exhausting day, but we must remember that their fight for justice is also our fight. Grenfell laid bare the sad truth of the stigma attached to social housing. It is a stigma I remember experiencing when people made assumptions because I lived on a council estate. It is a stigma that attaches to people from all walks of life—teachers, doctors and firefighters. They are people who pay their rent on time, but who are treated with disdain by housing providers.

This damning report confirms that people’s voices were ignored, and that safety concerns about the industry were ignored or disregarded at all levels of the Government and the housing sector. It is unforgivable. The Prime Minister has spoken about the culture. Will he commit to ensuring that this new Government address the culture within our housing sector, which often treats social housing tenants as an afterthought?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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My hon. Friend speaks powerfully and makes a really important point in relation to social housing, and the report is littered with examples of disrespect and of people not being listened to or taken seriously. Yes, policy and regulation are part of the answer to this issue, but policy and regulation on their own are not the complete answer. There has to be a change in culture and behaviour, and turning a corner needs to mean something more than passing a new law or putting in place new guidance, much needed though that is. It means all of us adopting a different culture and behaviour. Otherwise, we will be back here in I don’t know how many years having the same debate again, and we cannot visit that on the victims, the survivors, the deceased and the communities of Grenfell.

Stephen Flynn Portrait Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
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Our hearts ache at the injustice and horror that befell individuals and their families at Grenfell Tower, and I commend the Prime Minister for the strength and power of his remarks from the Dispatch Box today. Can he give a commitment that his Government will continue to work constructively with the devolved Governments to ensure the quick removal of all cladding right across these isles, so that we do not see a repeat of this horrible tragedy?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, and that is a really important point. Regardless of where someone lives or which Government they live under, the right to safe and secure housing is important. The Deputy Prime Minister has already met the First Minister of Scotland, and we will take every opportunity to work jointly on this issue.

Clive Efford Portrait Clive Efford (Eltham and Chislehurst) (Lab)
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How many times must we come here and hear another example of how the state, which should be on the side of ordinary people, becomes the enemy of working-class people? We have had Hillsborough, the Horizon Post Office scandal, the contaminated blood scandal, Windrush, and the treatment of former armed forces personnel who are members of the LGBT community. In each of those, the state has become the enemy of the people and delayed paying compensation to them.

Can the Grenfell inquiry be a watershed when we end the process by which the state becomes the enemy of working-class people, we treat them with the dignity they deserve, and we ensure that their compensation is paid rapidly and not delayed, as it has been in all those other cases? In the case of freeholders who are still holding out and not paying for the remedial work to their properties, it is about time they paid fines for delaying that work.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is a really important point, because there have been I don’t know how many examples of injustice where people have not been listened to and have been disregarded. Different Prime Ministers over the years have stood at this Dispatch Box and quite genuinely made commitments on the back of reports. I do not doubt that for a minute. I think every Prime Minister who has stood here in relation to any of those injustices meant every word that he or she said in response, and yet it goes on. So there is something more fundamental that we have to make time to consider, because I do not want to be back at this Dispatch Box—or any future Prime Minister to be at this Dispatch Box—having a version of the same discussion about injustice, about people being disregarded, not listened to and not taken seriously after the event for too long, and about justice coming too late for people who desperately need it. That is what I mean by turning a corner.

Daisy Cooper Portrait Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
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The inquiry report is damning, and the testimony that we heard is utterly devastating. First and foremost, all our thoughts are with the victims, the survivors, the bereaved and everybody affected.

In the last Parliament, many of us fought tooth and nail on a cross-party basis to improve the Fire Safety Bill and the Building Safety Bill so that social tenants and leaseholders who are still living in buildings covered in cladding and with other fire safety defects could get that remediation work done as quickly as possible. It is now clear that in some cases, the waterfall system that has been set up, by which we identify who is responsible, is simply not working and is taking far too long. One idea that was on the table in the last Parliament was that in some cases, the Government could put the money up to pay for the remediation, to take away the risk, and then use the power of the state and its lawyers to go after those responsible with penalties, so that the taxpayer would not lose out. Will the Prime Minister, who says that this is a moment of change and has committed to speed things up, please review that idea to see whether it could be used in some limited cases where there has still been no action?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is a really important point. From my own constituency, I know of examples where there was a contract, then a subcontract, a subcontract and another subcontract. In one case in my constituency, it went through seven subcontractors before the person who was actually responsible was found. Everybody simply took a cut of the contract and passed it on. That is a real problem, and we have to get to the bottom of it. We cannot allow that to happen. Of course, we will consider any proposals that are put forward in response to this report, but this is a very real problem of contracts simply being subcontracted over and over again. Trying to find accountability is very, very difficult.

Dawn Butler Portrait Dawn Butler (Brent East) (Lab)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement today. I recently visited the Grenfell site with Lord Boateng, who is in the Gallery today—

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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We do not mention names.

Dawn Butler Portrait Dawn Butler
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Excuse me, Mr Speaker. Everybody there at Grenfell wants people to be held responsible—those in boots but also those in suits. A lot of money has also gone missing, and some have called for the use of joint enterprise to ensure that everybody is held responsible. Some survivors have written a poetry book, and there is one poem called “So What Simon” by Mary Gardiner. This is just the ending:

“This is not about mercy, grace or kindness.

It’s about justice and honesty and believing we are all born equal and that is how we die.

No amount of wealth can make us differ so much that where we live becomes a rabbit hutch.

Change your minds, you people with power, or give it over and let us flower.”

Does the Prime Minister agree that justice delayed is justice denied?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes I do, and I particularly agree that justice is not a question of grace or kindness; it is an entitlement. It is an entitlement of every single citizen in this country, and that needs to be honoured as we go forward from here. Can I just take the opportunity to thank all those working on the memorial, which I know is very important? The work on the memorial is at an important stage, and I know it is very important to the community.

Robert Jenrick Portrait Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement today. The Grenfell fire was an unimaginable tragedy but, as he rightly said, it was also a comprehensive failure by the British state, and in many respects that comprehensive failure persists today. I am grateful for the words that he said about giving all resource and support to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, because clearly the victims, the survivors and the community of North Kensington want the insights and the answers that they have partly had today, but they also want justice, and that needs to be delivered as soon as possible.

Equally, I fully support the effort that the Prime Minister is going to make to see if further regulatory changes are required. They need to be made in a proportionate and effective way, and there are lessons to be learned from changes that we have made in the recent past. But when making those changes, can I urge him to look in particular at the status of the testing facility—the Building Research Establishment—and at the way it operates, which I think has failed significantly, as is laid out in the report?

Finally, I concur with the broader point that the Prime Minister made today, which is that when one speaks to the victims and their families, one is left with a very strong sense that many people in social housing in our country feel that they are second-class citizens and that they are being treated with disrespect. That must end. Will he take forward the work that began with the social housing White Paper to ensure that that never happens again?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, all support will be given to the police and the CPS, and I absolutely agree that this must be done as swiftly as possible. I think the police made a statement in relation to that earlier today. I will look at the particular point the right hon. Gentleman raises in relation to testing. I think the whole House needs to come together to recognise that in social housing there has been a profound disrespect for a very long time across a number of communities, and we have to turn a corner on that.

Margaret Mullane Portrait Margaret Mullane (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab)
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Following the wildfires of 2022 in Dagenham and Rainham, the ongoing crisis at Launders Lane in Rainham and now the devastating fire at the Spectrum building, also in my constituency, will the Prime Minister join me in commending the outstanding work of our emergency services? Will he also comment on the Government’s plans to improve fire resilience and safety in residential buildings and to hold those who are responsible to account when tragedies like this happen?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, it is important that they are held to account. I thank my hon. Friend for raising those issues in relation to Dagenham and I join her in commending the emergency services who have to respond to these awful incidents. From speaking to some of the first responders, I got a real sense of the impact it has on them. I know that the Deputy Prime Minister has visited the Dagenham scene in the last few days.

Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and the way he delivered it, and Sir Martin for his comprehensive report. The needless deaths that happened at Grenfell will never go away and never be forgotten. Those of us who have been on the silent walks for Grenfell every year since it happened, and visited many times, fully understand the strength of feeling and the deep anger in the community at this needless loss of life, brought about by a contract culture, deregulation, privatisation, ignorance and, frankly, contempt for working-class communities by many who should have done much more to protect and defend those people. So I hope the Prime Minister’s words will be carried through, and that criminal action will follow against those who deliberately neglected those who were in appalling and extreme danger.

Will the Prime Minister assure the House that the removal of dangerous cladding that has happened at most local authority-owned buildings all over the country will now also take place in the private sector leasehold buildings that many of our constituents live in, where they are faced with enormous insurance costs because of the existence of dangerous cladding? This has gone on for several years, and as the companies that are responsible for the dangerous cladding refuse to pay up, the problem is forced on to the people who are themselves the victims who are being put in danger.

There are so many lessons to be learned from Grenfell, and I hope that the contract culture in local government that the Prime Minister just spoke about—the endless subcontracting, subcontracting and subcontracting so that those responsible for dangerous conditions evade all responsibility—will end. I also hope that we will end the idea of the local government internal market and instead have the principle of local government delivery of service as the primary responsibility to ensure that all citizens live in safety, and that council housing grows rapidly over the next few years and we get more good quality, secure council housing built for the good of the people who are living in desperate housing need, often in the private rented sector.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We are taking action on that important point about leaseholders, be it in relation to insurance or in relation to other issues of which the House is well aware. It is important that is included in the work we take forward, and I am absolutely committed to ensuring the quality of council housing and social housing as we build those 1.5 million homes. As the whole House knows, it is not just a number that we are talking about. Each and every person who lost their life is a human being to be respected, cherished and remembered for who they were.

Ben Coleman Portrait Ben Coleman (Chelsea and Fulham) (Lab)
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On the Chelsea council estates that I have the honour of representing, Grenfell and the incompetence and indifference shown by the local council and the tenant management organisation, both before and after the tragedy, are still very much discussed. One of the striking things brought out by the report is the extraordinary response of the local community where the official response failed. It was heartening to hear the Prime Minister talk about a rebalancing of power, which is essential. I hope that we will ensure that councils gather proper information on the disabled people living in social housing, 15 of whom died in the Grenfell fire, to ensure that they can be evacuated safely in such a situation.

As well as taking action against companies, which I fully support, will the Prime Minister commit to working closely with local authorities to implement the report, and to protect our fellow citizens, whether they live in social housing or not, from this sort of thing happening again?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It was really hard to read the part of the report that deals with the indifference and disrespect after the tragedy. I would have thought that after such a tragedy, whatever the failures that went before, these people would at the very least be treated with the utmost respect, yet the same disregard and lack of basic respect and dignity continued. That is part of what this report is about.

It is important that there are plans in place for disabled people, and we have taken that forward for people with disabilities who are housed in circumstances in which they clearly need an evacuation plan. Of course we will work on this with local authorities and all relevant authorities.

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
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One of the things I learned from my interactions with the bereaved, survivors and Grenfell United during my time as Housing Minister is that their pain was compounded by their frustration at the pace of change, even some years after the fire. I shared their frustration as we tried to make progress on building safety issues. One of the things that sharpened our minds and made the Government machine jump to it was the prospect of external scrutiny. I heard the Prime Minister say that he wants to return annually to update the House on progress. I know he will do his best, but I am afraid that I do not think that will give the Government machine the kind of impetus required. Will he recommend to whoever is elected Chair of the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee that they establish a Sub-Committee to look at progress on the report’s recommendations? If not, will he support the establishment of a cross-party Committee of the House to drive through these changes and to monitor Government progress? Although an annual debate is welcome, I do not think it will give the sense of urgency required to address these issues swiftly.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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The question of external scrutiny is really important, and we will, of course, report annually. As the right hon. Gentleman probably knows, the report has a recommendation on scrutiny that we want to look at carefully and discuss with the community, which has strong views on this. Obviously, we will take into account the views of Members on both sides of the House, including on whether this is something a Select Committee should look at. I am not sure it is my role to tell a Select Committee what to look at, but I agree that the question of external scrutiny and accountability is really important. We have to make sure that the most robust scrutiny is in place.

Barry Gardiner Portrait Barry Gardiner (Brent West) (Lab)
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I do not think I have ever heard my right hon. and learned Friend speak more powerfully, more personally or more movingly than he did in this statement. I know that the more than 20,000 residents in my constituency who are still living in high-rise blocks with the nightmare of fire risk constantly upon them will welcome what he said about the Government taking a consistent and measured view of the recommendations, and moving to implement them systematically. They will also welcome what he said about the prosecution of those responsible for what Sir Martin called “systematic dishonesty” and

“deliberate and sustained strategies to manipulate the testing processes”.

I reinforce what the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) said about remediation. Many of the owners of these blocks have sold on to further owners, and to further owners beyond that. The Prime Minister spoke about subcontracting, but there has also been on-selling. Some of those owners live in tax havens such as the British Virgin Islands, and they are simply not complying. They are not even applying to the building safety fund to get this remediation work done. Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider very carefully what powers the Government can take in order to take control of these buildings, get the work done and then recover the costs, if necessary by acquiring and selling the buildings themselves?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend for raising that very real issue. One of the things we need to do is look at what further powers may be necessary. We cannot suggest for a minute that the existing legislation, guidance and policy is sufficient. We need more powers, and we will look at that and bring proposals back to the House. There will be a general debate, of course, because I know that many Members will want to discuss particular issues facing constituents who are fearful of the conditions in which they live.

Siân Berry Portrait Siân Berry (Brighton Pavilion) (Green)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his very serious and compassionate statement. The events of June 2017 feel like yesterday. Although I cannot imagine how the people directly affected are feeling right now, we must act in every way we can, and we must act together as much as possible.

However, I note that the inquiry’s report does not make new proposals on transparency and accountability for social housing tenants and leaseholders, particularly on access to fire risk assessments and related information, which are still very hard for residents to access—I saw that for myself in London, and I am still seeing it in Brighton. The previous Government did not act on the calls for housing associations to be subject to freedom of information requirements, despite them including calls made by the Information Commissioner as long ago as August 2017. Will the Prime Minister act now to fix these gaps in resident empowerment and access to information? That would be very simple, but it is not covered by today’s report.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We will obviously look at all the recommendations and report back to the House, but we need to look at the wider issues too. Access to risk assessments is an important issue that we are considering. There should not be gaps. One of the benefits of a general debate is that it will be an opportunity to raise these and further points, which we will take away and consider.

Marsha De Cordova Portrait Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)
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Today my thoughts are with the victims, the survivors, the families and the entire Grenfell community. The systemic dishonesty and many other injustices meant that the people of Grenfell were treated like second-class citizens. Successive Governments, the local authority and industry knew about the risks, but they failed to act.

As Sir Martin said, the deaths that occurred were entirely avoidable. Seven years on, no none has faced criminal proceedings and there are still thousands living in homes wrapped in unsafe cladding. I welcome what the Prime Minister has said today, I welcome the way he delivered his statement, and I am thankful that the Government will implement the phase 1 recommendation to ensure that every disabled person living in a high-rise block has a personal evacuation plan specific to their needs, but when the Prime Minister returns to update the House, it is vital that those living in unsafe homes have clear deadlines for when the flammable or unsafe cladding will be removed, so that they can have a decent night’s sleep.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I agree that the work is going too slowly; we need to push that work on, with clear timetables to ensure it is done. In response to the first part of my hon. Friend’s question, the wording of the report, which says that the deaths were entirely “avoidable”, must be chilling for all the family members and the community at large.

Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
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I commend the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition for their candour, and the tone that they adopted—it was pitch perfect. May I press the Prime Minister on a point made by Sir Max Hill KC in broadcast interviews this morning, about the urgent need for justice and for prosecutions to be brought? Colleagues across the House have raised the issue, and the Prime Minister has addressed it, but will he ensure that there is adequate resource in the policing arena and capacity in the court system to bring cases, where appropriate, as speedily as possible? Businesses are inclined to dissolve themselves and disappear into the ether very quickly. Will he make sure that there is capacity in both the investigation and prosecution arenas to ensure speed? We all recognise that people have been waiting far too long.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Sir Max Hill has personal experience of these sorts of cases, as have I. We need to ensure that resource is in place, and that we are clear about the speed of decision making. They are not straightforward decisions, but none the less they should be taken as swiftly as possible. We need to ensure that the courts are in a position to handle the cases as soon as they are ready to go to court, if there are cases to go to court.

Zarah Sultana Portrait Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Ind)
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I join colleagues in remembering the 72 people who lost their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire tragedy, and I say to their friends and families that I will always fight to deliver justice for their loved ones. As chair of the Fire Brigades Union parliamentary group, I put on record my admiration for the heroic bravery of the firefighters who attended that night. The FBU has long said that deregulation and corporate greed were the reasons for the catastrophe, and the report vindicates that view. Does the Prime Minister agree? When will the Government set up the statutory advisory body on fire policy, in order to give firefighters and control staff a voice in setting national standards, and to ensure lessons are learned? When will the timetable for that be set?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I place on record my gratitude to the firefighters on the night. Having been to Grenfell Tower, I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like to have been confronted with the situation that they faced, and to deal with the circumstances they had to deal with. Time and again, our first responders are asked by us, rightly, to do very challenging things. They do it, and we should thank them for that.

Joy Morrissey Portrait Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
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I thank the Prime Minister for taking the recommendations so seriously, and for raising concerns about the parity of esteem for social housing tenants. We have seen problems in that area so many times, so I thank him for taking those recommendations forward. Will he join me in paying tribute again to the volunteer organisations, including the founding members of Grenfell United, as well as members of other charities and churches who worked tirelessly in the aftermath of the Grenfell tragedy?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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A passage in the report highlights two groups: one group is the TMO, the businesses and those charged with responsibility, and the other is those who lived in the tower. Those groups were treated differently before, during and after the tragedy, which relates to the question of esteem that the hon. Lady rightly touches on. We must stop talking about the issue and act on it.

Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)
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My thoughts today are with the families and loved ones of the 72 people who died so tragically in the fire. As the report identifies, those deaths were entirely “avoidable” and were the result of corporate greed, because profits were put before people. Some 3,000 medium and high-rise buildings are still being monitored by the Government because they are clad in unsafe cladding. Will the Prime Minister state how he will support leaseholders living in those buildings, whose lives are on hold at the moment? I stand in solidarity with the families in support of justice. I hope they do not wait as long as the Hillsborough families.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Many premises are being monitored. That needs to continue. We need to bear down on all the relevant authorities to ensure they are safe and give leaseholders the support they need.

Sarah Gibson Portrait Sarah Gibson (Chippenham) (LD)
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Will the Prime Minister help to ensure this type of disaster will not happen again by looking carefully at building control inspection? Since deregulation, such inspection is often not carried out in person but through phone calls and photographs. Poor inspection of works across the UK building industry means other such disasters will happen again and again, unless we look carefully at how our building control inspection works.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I agree with that. The way building control inspections were carried out in this case makes for a shocking read in the report. It is particularly grave, but not the only example of such building control inspection. We will look at that as we respond to the report.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury (Runcorn and Helsby) (Lab)
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I thank the Prime Minister for the most powerful and heartfelt statement I have ever heard him make, putting the 72 victims of the Grenfell fire and survivors in the community at the heart of the road map going forward. As the Prime Minister said, justice must be speedy, with prosecutions for those who were involved in systemic dishonesty. Justice also means that those responsible for the broader building safety crisis should pay to make buildings safe, so how will the Prime Minister ensure that now happens at pace?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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Justice needs to be speedy and, in this case, it is important we ensure that it is swift. We should bear in mind it has already taken seven years to get to where we are today, which doubles the need for that speed. All those with responsibility need to take responsibility; I thought the words of one member of the inquiry this morning, about those with responsibility taking the report as a template and guide for the future, were very important. All those with responsibility for building safety includes me, which is why I will take that approach in government.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his tone, compassion and understanding, and the seriousness in his voice and words today. I honestly and sincerely believe the Prime Minister speaks for everyone in the House in the way he conveyed the statement, and I thank him for that. On behalf of Democratic Unionist party Members, I convey our collective sympathies to the families. They are never far from our thoughts, even though a number of years have passed. The report catalogued failures. There are similar buildings in Northern Ireland, so will the findings and recommendations of the report be conveyed to the Minister at the Northern Ireland Assembly with the urgency required, ever mindful that the Northern Ireland housing executive and others are financially stretched? What help can be given to deliver the much needed improvements across this great nation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the question in relation to Northern Ireland. Of course we must work with all the relevant authorities in Northern Ireland. I took the early opportunity after the formation of the Government to go to Northern Ireland to make clear that would be the way I will work on all issues. That is particularly important in relation to the safety of people in the place that they live.

Nesil Caliskan Portrait Nesil Caliskan (Barking) (Lab)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. I associate myself with the remarks made about thinking about the victims and their families, who are still fighting every day for justice. I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to ensuring they will see justice through the criminal justice system. The report makes over 50 recommendations and suggestions about the regulatory framework, so will he reassure me that the Government will work closely with local authorities to ensure they have the support they need to respond to any additional regulatory burdens that might be put on them in the coming months and years?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend for her question. It is important that we work on the regulatory framework with local authorities and with all those charged with responsibility so that there is justice in this case, and secondly, that we take the necessary action to ensure that this never happens again.

Mary Kelly Foy Portrait Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)
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I welcome the Prime Minister’s personal commitment to changing the culture and behaviour towards council tenants that allowed this tragedy to happen. It is a national scandal. Can he ensure that residents, tenants and professional firefighters on the frontline are heard and listened to? We cannot trust those who caused the tragedy in the first place to put things right.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is an important issue. This case is an example of where those concerned for their safety in the place where they live have made points, put forward issues and raised concerns but not been listened to. That is a characteristic of how not just housing but other aspects of life are dealt with. We must ensure that we listen to those who are most concerned. It is their place, their home, they are entitled to feel safe and secure there, and it is our responsibility to ensure that they are.

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
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As the Prime Minister so painfully said, the Grenfell fire destroyed lives and ripped families apart, but constituents of mine are suffering, too. They are afraid to go to sleep at night, because they live in buildings that were built more recently than Grenfell, with fire safety risks. The building standards that informed the recladding of Grenfell and the building of more recent blocks of flats were strong on thermal insulation to save energy costs but very weak on fire safety, and their implementation, as we now know from this report, has been even worse. The building regulations of other jurisdictions cover both thermal insulation and fire safety risks. How long will it take for UK building regulations to catch up?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is one issue that we will have to look at in light of the report, but I accept that there are people today in accommodation where they fear for their safety, because of the conditions in which they are living. Having spoken to some of those people, I got a sense of what it is like for them to worry every night about the safety of themselves and their family, particularly those with children.

Nadia Whittome Portrait Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)
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I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and his commitments today. As he has said, the report makes it clear that the Conservative Government’s obsession with deregulation meant that safety issues were ignored, delayed or disregarded. It says that the Government were well aware of the deadly risk of cladding before the fire, but failed to act. It concludes that all 72 deaths were avoidable.

This morning, Grenfell United—survivors and bereaved families—urged our new Government to break old habits and bring systemic change by both separating Government from corporate lobbying and tackling social and racial injustices and inequalities. Will the Prime Minister undertake this work without delay?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I read very carefully what the report said about deregulation. As we go forward from here, we must avoid the habit of simply blaming somebody else for everything and pull together and say that it is our responsibility. We are a new Government. Irrespective of where the failure lay, it is our responsibility now to take this forward to ensure safety. I know that is a sentiment shared across the House and I thank the Leader of the Opposition for the approach that he has taken. If we do it in that way, we can do what the survivors, the bereaved, the families and the communities most want, which is to show our determination to ensure that this never happens again.

Alan Gemmell Portrait Alan Gemmell (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
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Today’s report lists a series of terrible failures that let down the Grenfell community. The Grenfell fire affected communities in every part of the UK, and I wish to pass on the thoughts of my constituents in Irvine to the families and loved ones. A fire at a 14-storey block of flats in Irvine in 1999 spread via external cladding. The Garnock Court fire resulted in one fatality and led to changes to Scottish building regulations, which the then local MP fought to have implemented. I hope my right hon. Friend will look at the lessons from the Garnock Court fire as he starts to address this terrible injustice.

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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We must look at this question of external cladding. Some measures have been taken in the past seven years, as I referenced in my statement, but we need to look at this again. The description that I was given when I was at Grenfell Tower of how the fire spread, and the role played by the cladding, was chilling.

John McDonnell Portrait John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)
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Having read the summary of the report, may I say how difficult it has been to contain one’s anger? Like many west London MPs here, I visited the site soon after the fire. In the following months, we met the victims, the families of the victims, the firefighters, the local representatives, and the traumatised call centre operators, some of whom have never recovered. I was castigated then for using the expression “social murder”. This report defines; it was social murder. Exactly as the Prime Minister said, we need urgent action. We have been promised a debate. For that debate, may we have the definitive report for each of our constituencies on what action has been taken, what action will be taken, and what the deadline will be?

May I return to recommendation 113.7 in the report? In the building regulations, we defined higher buildings as above seven storeys or 18 metres. That takes no account of those other properties in which there are vulnerable residents in particular who are now at risk. The recommendation is to urgently review those regulations. May we have a timetable for that review, as it has consequences for many of our constituents?

Keir Starmer Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my right hon. Friend for making that point. On the debate, it is important that as much information as possible is made available and that we are able to deal with the questions that Members of this House have raised. That is why we are looking at the date of that debate. I wanted it to be as soon as possible, but I do not want it to be so quick that Members will be frustrated because they will rightly want information or assurances that need a little bit of working through. I will try to make sure that that happens. The safety of buildings that are not at the specific height is among the issues that we have to consider here. We are all well aware of these very troubling cases, and they have to be part of the debate.

Nusrat Ghani Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Ghani)
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That concludes that very serious statement. I will give those on the Front Bench some time to vacate the Chamber and allow the new Ministers to take their seats.

Considered in Committee
[Ms Nusrat Ghani in the Chair]
Nusrat Ghani Portrait The Chairman of Ways and Means (Ms Ghani)
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I remind Members that, in Committee, Members should not address the Chair as “Deputy Speaker”. Please use our names when addressing the Chair. “Madam Chair” or “Chair” are also acceptable.

Clause 1

Announcement of fiscally significant measures

13:58
Nigel Huddleston Portrait Nigel Huddleston (Droitwich and Evesham) (Con)
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I beg to move amendment 9, page 1, line 14, at end insert—

“(c) or any changes to the government’s fiscal targets.”

This amendment requires the OBR to produce and publish a section 4(3) report at the time new fiscal rules are announced by the Treasury.

Nusrat Ghani Portrait The Chairman
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With this is will be convenient to take the following:

Amendment 2, page 1, line 25, at end insert—

“(2A) In any case where the Office has acted in accordance with subsection (2), it may notify the Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests of the circumstances in any case where it considers those circumstances may be relevant to—

(a) the Ministerial Code, or

(b) the functions of the Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests.”

This amendment enables the OBR to notify the Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests where the OBR considers that any instance where the Treasury had not requested a report under section 4A(1) in advance may give rise to consideration of compliance with the Ministerial Code.

Amendment 5, page 1, line 25, at end insert—

“(2A) Where the OBR prepares a report in accordance with subsection (1) or (2), it must take account of the impact of the measure or measures on—

(a) the UK’s compliance with, and

(b) the fiscal cost of meeting,

the UK’s net zero target as set in section 1(2) of the Climate Change Act 2008.”

This amendment requires the OBR to report on the impact of fiscally significant measures announced by Government on the UK’s statutory net zero target.

Amendment 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert “or

(b) the measure, or combination of measures, is likely to have an impact on—

(i) the cost of government borrowing,

(ii) interest rates, or

(iii) the rate of growth of gross domestic product.”

This amendment broadens the definition of fiscally significant measures to those which fall below the costing threshold, but have wider fiscal effects, by affecting either the cost of government borrowing, interest rates or rates of economic growth.

Amendment 6, page 2, line 4, at end insert

“or if the condition in subsection (3A) is met.”

See the statement for Amendment 7.

Amendment 7, page 2, line 6, at end insert—

“(3A) The condition in this subsection is that the measure, or combination of measures, forms part of category of measures with a cumulative impact on—

(a) public sector net debt,

(b) public sector contingent liabilities, or

(c) both,

that exceeds a specified percentage of the gross domestic product for a specified period.

“Specified” means specified in, or determined in accordance with, the Charter for Budget Responsibility”

The purpose of this amendment is to extend the definition of fiscally significant measures to include measures with a cumulative impact on public sector net debt or contingent liabilities when taken together with other measures in the same category, such as public projects with private sector partners.

Amendment 3, page 2, line 16, leave out “28” and insert “56”.

See the statement for Amendment 4.

Amendment 4, page 2, line 17, at end insert—

“(6A) After the publication of a draft under subsection (6), the Treasury must consult—

(a) the Office for Budget Responsibility,

(b) the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons, and

(c) such other persons as the Treasury considers appropriate.

(6B) When a modified Charter so as to include provision by virtue of this section is laid before Parliament, the Treasury must also lay before Parliament a report on the outcome of consultation under subsection (6A).”

The purpose of this amendment is to impose a requirement on the Treasury to undertake a full consultation and publish the outcome of that consultation prior to revision of the Charter for the purposes of the Bill.

Clause 1 stand part.

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 10, Title, after “measures” insert

“and of any changes to the government’s fiscal targets”.

This amendment is consequential to Amendment 9. It would amend the long title of the Bill.

Nigel Huddleston Portrait Nigel Huddleston
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Thank you very much, Madam Chair. May I first take the opportunity to congratulate you on your election? I promise to try not to try your patience over the coming weeks, years and so on, but we will see how things go.

I wish primarily to speak today to amendment 9 and, of course, consequential amendment 10, which effectively seek to ensure that the fiscal lock proposed in the Bill should also include any changes to the fiscal rules and would require the Office for Budget Responsibility to produce a report on their effect on public finances. The Office for Budget Responsibility was of course constructed by a Conservative Chancellor following the poor forecasting record of the previous Labour Government. Between 2000 and 2010, the then Labour Government’s forecasts for economic growth were out by an average of £13 billion, and their forecasts for the budget deficit three years ahead were out by an average of £40 billion. Their forecasts therefore lacked credibility, and to re-establish confidence and credibility the OBR was created by the Conservative Government.

Labour lacked economic credibility in the past, and I am afraid it still lacks it now. The facts simply do not stand up the false claim that the Government have inherited the worst economic circumstances since the second world war; they transparently have not. Contrary to the rewriting of history that the current Labour Government are attempting, when we took over from Labour back in 2010, inflation was 3.4%. When they took over from us, it was 2.2%. The annual deficit is half what we inherited in 2010, unemployment is about half what it was in 2010, and we handed Labour the fastest economic growth in the G7. The dominant political and economic narrative since the second world war is in fact, as has been widely commented on, that every single Labour Government end up with unemployment higher at the end of their time in power than when they took over from the Conservatives preceding them.

The British public should not be taken for fools. Just because Labour keeps claiming something, that does not mean that it suddenly becomes true, which is why clarity over plans and rules is so important. The fiscal rules are of course restrictions on fiscal policy set by the Government to constrain their own decisions on spending and taxes. The fiscal rules set by the previous Government said that the debt to GDP ratio should be falling within a five-year horizon, and that the ratio of the annual budget deficit to GDP should be below 3% by the end of the same period. Labour’s manifesto for the election proposed the following fiscal rules: balancing the current budget, so that day-to-day costs are met by revenues, and that debt must be falling as a share of the economy by the fifth year of the forecast. On the surface, therefore, the debt rules appear to be broadly the same under the new Government. The Government have even said that they have an “ironclad” commitment to reduce Government debt. It is therefore critical what definition of debt is used for the fiscal rules. Clearly, any changes to the fiscal rules are financially significant decisions because they affect how much the Government can borrow and spend.

On Second Reading, the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury said:

“Our fiscal rules are non-negotiable.”—[Official Report, 30 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 1263.]

Great, but why then has the Chancellor repeatedly failed to rule out that she will change the definition of debt in her fiscal rules to allow, presumably, for massive borrowing? The Government cannot run from the scrutiny that they should be subjected to if they are considering making such a change. We believe that our amendment requiring an OBR report on changes to the fiscal rules is entirely consistent with the Government’s stated policy intent, and should therefore be fairly uncontentious. After all, on Second Reading, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that

“the announcement of a fiscally significant measure should always be accompanied by an independent assessment of its economic and fiscal implications, in order to support transparency and accountability.”—[Official Report, 30 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 1211.]

We agree, and not accepting our amendment would be contrary to those goals, because clearly changing the fiscal rules would be a fiscally significant measure in anybody’s book. Furthermore, the Chief Secretary said that

“fiscal discipline and sound money is the bedrock of our plans.”—[Official Report, 30 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 1213.]

Well, changing the fiscal rules would be changing the foundations and that bedrock.

Transparency and clarity are important in relation to the public finances, because Ministers should never forget that it is not their money that they are spending; it is the public’s money. The public have a right to know how their money is being spent, and government is about making difficult choices with limited resources. With Government spending being above £1.2 trillion per year, the British public recognise that the Government clearly have choices. It is not an endless supply of money, but it is a very, very large amount. In the last few weeks, the new Labour Government chose to spend the public’s money on pay settlements for their union friends rather than on supporting pensioners. Those settlements are estimated to cost about £10 billion. They also chose to spend £8.3 billion on a public energy company and £7.3 billion on a national wealth fund, so far from inheriting a £22-billion black hole, they have actually just spent £25 billion creating one within their first few weeks of coming to power.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
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My hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech on the importance of being responsible with our public finances. Much of the Bill is concerned with responsibility and transparency. Does he know whether the Government published an impact assessment when they took away the winter fuel allowance?

Nigel Huddleston Portrait Nigel Huddleston
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I thank my hon. Friend for that point. My understanding is that the Government have not published an impact assessment, as would normally be the case for something with such a significant impact. I think that speaks to the whole narrative that we are hearing from the Government: claiming one thing when the facts speak differently. As I said, far from inheriting a £22 billion black hole, they have actually spent, or committed to spending, an additional £25 billion. That is a choice that they made, so the claim that the Labour Government are having to take the winter fuel allowance away from millions of pensioners as a response to unexpected financial constraints simply does not stack up against the facts, or indeed the words of the Chancellor herself, who on 25 March 2014—yes, a decade ago—said:

“We are the party who have said that we will cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners and means-test that benefit to save money”.—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 174.]

That is a direct quote in Hansard from the current Chancellor, so no, the Government’s restriction of winter fuel payments is not a response to financial circumstance; it is a long-established, clearly stated Labour policy intent—a deliberate policy choice, but a policy that they conveniently forgot to tell the public about in the run-up to the last election.

I hope, however, that the Government can be straight with the public on this point about the fiscal rules, accept the amendment that we are proposing, and provide assurance to all Members and the outside world that there is no sleight of hand here. We want the Bill to work as they say it is intended to, and to include financially significant decisions, such as on the levels of Government borrowing and the fiscal rules. I would therefore appreciate it if the Chief Secretary to the Treasury confirmed in his wind-up that the Government do not intend to change the definition of debt in their fiscal rules or practise some accounting trick to hide the level of Government borrowing, and that they do indeed wish to be clear and transparent about the public finances. If Labour Members vote against our amendment, it will merely prove that they are planning to change their fiscal rules in the Budget to borrow more money, increase debt, and run away from independent OBR scrutiny—the very opposite of the stated intent of the Bill.

Nusrat Ghani Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Ghani)
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I call Dr Jeevun Sandher to make his maiden speech.

Jeevun Sandher Portrait Dr Jeevun Sandher (Loughborough) (Lab)
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Thank you, Madam Chair, for allowing me to give my maiden speech in this House. Like every Member across this House, it is the greatest honour, privilege and responsibility of my life to represent my community of Loughborough, Shepshed and the villages. I rise at the most difficult moment for our communities and our country since the second world war, when many feel despondency, despair and anger. I know that every Member across this House wants our communities to succeed and to contribute to our national success. That is what my community has done before and will do again, with hope and determination.

My story does not begin in Loughborough. I was not born there—unlike my neighbours, who are now my friends, and who have made it my home. My story instead begins in rural Punjab, 4,000 miles away, where my father was born almost 70 years ago. His chances of dying before his fifth birthday were one in four. Today, a child born in the same place is around nine times less likely to die. That is what economic growth means. It means less suffering, it means less misery and it means less death. That is why I became an economist: to build prosperity and to lessen misery.

I learned my trade in the Treasury and then went to work in Somaliland, one of the poorest nations on Earth, where I helped to write its economic policy, its budgets and its national development plan. That was where I saw the horrors of climate change lead to drought, hunger and death, but also where I learned that even in the darkest of hours and the most difficult of moments we can build prosperity.

Now I stand here as the elected Member of Parliament for my community. It says something remarkable about our nation that the fact that I, the son of immigrants, am standing in this Chamber is in and of itself unremarkable. It speaks to our common culture—a culture forged of different backgrounds, a culture that not only rejects the violence we saw over the summer, but completely rejects its reasoning too.

My election represents an historic first for my community. I am a member of an under-represented minority—I am, of course, the first Member of Parliament elected by the men and women of Loughborough to have a beard. To the organisers of the beard of the year competition I say, “Call me.” Luckily for me, my dad is not eligible for that particular competition. I know that the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has won the award several times; I hope he does not mind me winning the prize this time, as long as I let him win the argument.

My predecessor in this place, Jane Hunt, was not a contender for that award, but no one can doubt her commitment to team Loughborough, and every single Member across this House and across my community will wish her the very best, especially as she has recovered from cancer. Her predecessor, Baroness Morgan, has talents that are well known both in this and the other place. Before her was my good friend and mentor Andy Reed. Members who know Andy will know that he is still a leading figure in sports policy, and they will also know that Andy is the nicest man in British politics. It is his character that I hope to live up to in this place.

However, I rise to speak at the most difficult time for our communities and our nation since 1945. Our communities are in crisis. Wages in my constituency are £10,000 lower than they would be had we grown at new Labour rates. The divides caused by deindustrialisation have widened from cracks into chasms, with young men who used to leave school and get good jobs now 20% less likely to get any job; in our most deprived neighbourhoods, life expectancy falling before the pandemic; more than any fact or figure, the despair, the despondency and the anger; across and beyond our shores, war in Europe once more, with democracy in danger; and, most seriously of all, a planet that is burning.

For my community, this was the hottest summer we have ever known, followed by the worst flooding we have ever seen, destroying homes. The Prime Minister and I saw that destruction when we visited the homes of Ian and Alan. No one should wake up in the morning to find their home destroyed by flooding, but that will only become more common in the years ahead. What we do in the next decade will determine the fate of our communities, of democracy and of our planet. Either we will rise to this moment, build prosperity for all, protect democracy and stop emitting carbon, or everything we hold dear will crumble and fall.

Previous generations have shown us that we can rise to this moment that threatens us. Our country stood alone against fascism in Europe and won. I think today of my constituent William Williams, 104 years old, who flew Spitfires in the war. As his generation rose to their moment, so can we. My community have shown me that we can. When the waters came and the floods rose, my constituents Caz and Carl did not pause to think if they could help, but only how they could help. They organised collections, they provided refuge, and they looked after perfect strangers. It is their spirit that I carry into this place—asking not if, but how. How can we build prosperity and protect our planet from burning? We can do so by investing in a green transition that creates good jobs and gets wages rising for the people and places left behind when the factories closed. That is what we can achieve, and we are seeing it work already in the United States.

14:15
In my community there is world-leading hydrogen research and industry. We need green hydrogen for fertiliser and to keep our trucks moving. It is not a coincidence that I have chosen to speak in this debate, with Treasury Ministers on the Front Bench; I say to them, “Get out the cheque book”—they are very excited by that—“because I will be asking for money from both the National Wealth Fund and GB Energy.”
However, this is about more than cash. It is about rebuilding hope and prosperity. As a previous generation rose to their moment, in the midst of the most destructive war in the history of humankind, an economist wrote a report that still defines our nation. He wrote:
“Freedom from want cannot be forced on a democracy or given to a democracy. It must be won by them.”
It was won by them. They built prosperity for all, with good jobs across our country, education for all, housing for all and healthcare for all.
As that generation rose to their moment, so will we, by building prosperity, protecting our planet and ending despair and despondency. As previous generations rose to their moment, we will too, with the hope and determination that defines our communities and that defines our country.
Nusrat Ghani Portrait The Chairman of Ways and Means (Ms Ghani)
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A very strong maiden speech, without a script in hand—your parents will be proud.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith
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It is a delight as ever to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani. I congratulate the hon. Member for Loughborough (Dr Sandher) on his maiden speech and his kind comments about his predecessor Jane Hunt, a great colleague of this House. It was one of my great pleasures in my previous role as Minister for science and research to visit the fine university he now represents; I wish him and them well, and I wish him all the best of luck with those on his Front Bench in procuring the financial support he seeks.

This is a disreputable Bill, if we are brutally honest. It is a piece of political theatre, which all of us on both sides of this House should think very strongly about giving our support to. This history of this place is of legislation made in haste, which this House subsequently repents at leisure. I say this in all seriousness and in the spirit of this place: at a time when there is low trust in politics, did our constituents—did the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, when they trooped to the ballot box and returned him to this place only weeks ago—seriously expect that our role would be to give away even more of our responsibilities? Can any of us, hand on heart, say that our constituents know what and who the OBR is? Did the electors of Bristol North West, Hampstead and Highgate, Richmond Park or, indeed, Arundel and South Downs send us to this place only to give away our duties and responsibility to the unnamed, unknown and unelected officials—well-meaning, no doubt—of the Office for Budget Responsibility? Hands on the face of a stopped clock are sometimes more accurate than the OBR forecasts, as they are at least correct twice a day for sure.

In truth, this legislation, put together at breakneck speed, has more holes than a Swiss cheese. If we look at clause 1(3), who decides the “costing”? Proposed new section 4A exempts any measure that is intended, at the time of its introduction, to be temporary. Members of this House will be familiar with the fact that income tax itself, one of the largest ever fiscal measures, was intended to be temporary; perhaps the Minister will address that fact when he winds up. Income tax was introduced by Pitt the Younger in 1799 as a temporary measure. Well, here we are, 225 years later, and that temporary measure is still going extremely strong.

Who defines what is and is not a fiscal measure—a measure with a potential impact on the GDP of this country? Many things decided in this House will have a direct or indirect impact on the GDP of this country; the decision by Tony Blair to take us to war without a vote in this House undoubtedly had an impact on our GDP. Decisions to introduce a four-day working week—if this House so chooses to make them, as is its right—would have a material impact on the GDP of this country. The Centre for Business and Economic Research estimates that every bank holiday costs this country a sum approaching £3.6 billion. Three, four, five or six bank holidays add up to a 1% impact on GDP, which I speculate may be the threshold for the OBR to intervene.

On trade deals, if those on the Government Benches fulfilled their ambition to realign with Europe—to federate and once again abrogate our trade to Europe—that would potentially have a material fiscal impact on GDP. There are very few domains of this House—very few of the decisions that our constituents have sent us here to legislate and decide on their behalf—that would not potentially fall foul of this rule.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
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I will delight the hon. Gentleman, because, as I am sure he saw on the amendment paper, I have tabled an amendment that would look at trade deals. One of the reasons why I felt compelled to do that, and explore this question that he raises about the economic impact, is that while he was in government and, indeed, a Treasury Minister, the Government did not publish any information for the very trade deals he is talking about. I will always welcome a sinner who repenteth but, for the avoidance of doubt, is he saying that he now believes there should be independent scrutiny of things such as the trade and co-operation agreement?

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith
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It is good to have a proper debate. I certainly think that if we want and seek good government—which, like the human condition, is not a perfect state, but a state that we should seek constantly to perfect—the highest levels of transparency and the very important exercise in Government publishing of impact assessments when they make material decisions, as required by Cabinet Office guidance, are things that the whole House should join hands and agree on. It is one of the reasons why I asked my colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich and Evesham (Nigel Huddleston), whether the Government had published an impact assessment on their callous decision to withdraw the winter fuel allowance from so many pensioners. The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) will well know that the process of trade deals undergoes extensive scrutiny in this House, and I took one of those trade deals through that process of scrutiny in a former life.

I will conclude, because I simply want to alert hon. Members to what they are potentially doing as they seek to support this Bill. It is not for partisan or political advantage, but about the important role of Parliament, which has been litigated many times in this Chamber and in debate.

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (Blackley and Middleton South) (Lab)
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Unsurprisingly, I have listened to the hon. Gentleman’s speeches on a number of occasions, and I agree with quite a lot of what he is saying about transparency. Does he agree that the burden of his argument is that we cannot make a Government behave better or govern more effectively by quango? This quango was set up by George Osborne to trap an incoming Labour Government and restrict and slow them down, and it is an odd thing that we see this quango being gilded.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith
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As ever, the hon. Member makes an important and weighty contribution. He is exactly right about the direction of travel. On both sides of the House, we will all find our own particular point on the envelope when it comes to the balance around organisations that can hold us to account and, in particular, hold a mirror to Government and ensure that this House acts with the best, most accurate and well-meaning data.

My core point is that we are sent here by our constituents. I again congratulate the hon. Member for Loughborough, who has been sent here on behalf of his constituents and has given a fine speech today, but I do not believe—he may intervene and correct me—that the citizens of Loughborough, whether they voted for Jane Hunt or for him, intended that one of the very first actions he and we would take as legislators would be to award more of our powers and place more fetters on ourselves. This is the right Chamber for accountability. We should hold ourselves to account; we have a number of ways in which to do that to ourselves. The hon. Member for Blackley and Middleton South (Graham Stringer) makes a very real point about quangos, arm’s length bodies and how we hold ourselves to account.

That is my point. I understand that many colleagues wish to get in. I support the amendment put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich and Evesham, because it is quite right that we have rules. I was an accountant by training, and the first thing we learn—whether someone is an accountant or in performance sport—is that we play by the rules as they are; we do not seek to rig the rules in our favour.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Creasy
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It is a pleasure to speak in the same debate as the maiden speech given by my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Dr Sandher). I am sure other speeches are coming that will show just how impressive the new generation of MPs is across the House.

It is also a joy to follow the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith), because I have always enjoyed the experience of listening to him. When he was a Treasury Minister in the previous Government, I watched him, debated with him and tried to encourage him to take on the buy now, pay later lenders—that is related to what I will say about legal loan sharking. But I have to be honest: being lectured by former Conservative Ministers about fiscal probity is a bit like being lectured by Toad of Toad Hall about safe driving, given the experiences of many of our constituents, which have led to the need for this legislation.

I put on record my support for this legislation, because frankly anybody who has had to renegotiate a mortgage since the Liz Truss Budget knows exactly why it is needed and why we must protect the British public from the consequences of bad decision making at a national level. As we saw in many examples under the previous Administration, the public have paid the price for that and will continue to do so.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith
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Of course, the legislation does not fetter previous Governments, but it would fetter the discretion of the hon. Lady’s own Front Benchers. In that context, does she not have the same confidence in her Front Bench that many others seem to enjoy?

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Creasy
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I am a bit disappointed that the hon. Member did not seek to call me Ratty. I am also quite struck by the fact that he, a former Conservative Treasury Minister, rises not to hold himself accountable for the consequences of decisions made by the previous Government, or indeed to defend them, but simply to say, “You will be held to a higher fiscal standard.” We on the Labour Benches welcome a higher fiscal standard; that is the purpose of the legislation. Political decisions will still be made, but we will make them with the benefit of independent information. He will know that there were many debates in the previous Parliament, and indeed in those before it, in which independent information about and verification of the economic impact of policies mattered but were missing. Indeed, he mentions trade deals, which are an example of where we did not have independent information. I will comment on that only briefly, because my amendment has not been selected—he will be as disappointed as I am about that.

14:30
The amendments that I have tabled are intended to probe the legislation and the concept of “fiscally significant.” Amendments 6 and 7—and indeed amendment 8, although it was not considered in scope for selection—are about how we hold ourselves to account for the impact on future generations. I am not here to make a maiden speech; I am essentially the old guard now because I have been here for 14 years—[Interruption.] I know, it is very sad—my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton North (Lucy Rigby) is looking at me in horror.
Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer
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You are not as old guard as some.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Creasy
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Yes. But in that time, many of us have had persistent concerns, and one of mine has always been the private finance initiative. The Government are asking all of us to make and support some very tough decisions because of the economic mess that the country now finds itself in. My view is that we must look at all outgoings in that process. If somebody came to a constituency surgery because they had multiple outstanding loans and could not pay their rent, we would look at the debts that they held. That is the challenge with private finance: it is the legal loan-sharking of the public sector. Amendments 6 and 7 are about the process of getting a grip on our debts and ensuring that we learn from the damage that private finance has done.

Let us be clear: nobody can absolve themselves from private finance. Governments of all persuasions have sought to use that process—the ability to put only the repayments on the books, rather than the substantial cost of borrowing. That started under John Major; yes, there were multiple PFIs under the previous Labour Government; and indeed, the previous Conservative Government continued to use private finance until 2018. That is why, as of February this year, there are still 700 PFI schemes representing a capital value of £57 billion, but for which we will pay back £151 billion in the years ahead. We are asking pensioners to pay more for heating their homes, but we should be asking how we can pay less for the private finance debts that we have built up.

Private finance was about being able to build things such as schools and hospitals. Anybody who has an outstanding PFI debt in their constituency, or a school or hospital that urgently needs rebuilding, such as Whipps Cross hospital in my constituency, understands the importance of being able to access private finance. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying through my amendments that we should never work with the private sector; I am saying that PFI was a catastrophically bad deal and that, cumulatively, it would meet the legislation’s targets of 1% of GDP, so it is a fiscally significant policy. My amendments are about trying to understand how we will deal with cumulative debt and cumulatively fiscally significant policies.