Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Lords Amemdment 49D - Government Motion To Disagree. Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Hove and Portslade, Labour)

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14:37

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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been agreed to buy the house. Is honourable members no, the substance of this bill began with the previous government in recognition of the need to streamline the use of data to grow the economy and drive improvement in public services. As I said before, when this bill started life, most of us had no idea it would be the vehicle for addressing some of the most important social and technological issues of our time. While I welcome the huge benefits the data bill will bring to the economy and public services when it comes into force, I fear this bill will go down in the record as the bill of missed opportunities.

A missed opportunity to fix our datasets which present a barrier to tackling inequalities, a missed opportunity to commit to a review of opportunity to commit to a review of protections for children and the use of social media platforms and commit to taking action to increase those protections where the evidence shows there is good reason, and a missed opportunity to provide much-needed certainty to 2 of our key growth industries. The creative sectors over how they could interact to promote their mutual growth and flourishing.

It can be seen somewhat dispiriting to be back at the despatch boxes having a debate of copyright and AI. But I see there has been an upgrade since our last outing at the dispatch. I would like to say that I do pay tribute to the Secretary of State for the approach, particularly with mistakes made. I think we don't say sorry or recognise mistakes where we want things to have gone better enough, and I appreciate him making the statements at the despatch boxes, but the fact is that it is a testament to determination and sincere concern of both benches with the concern that we must not miss this opportunity to find a solution to such a significant challenge.

Our colleagues in the other place of spoken about their commitment to this house and they are reticent to delay the passage of this bill even further than is necessary. There resolve looks at the importance of this issue to members of both houses and the stakeholders they represent. The government has spoken repeatedly about creating the industries, but their action is still yet to match their rhetoric. It would appear that, today, reviews have been upgraded to working groups. Many excuses had been made for why the government feels unable to act now.

government feels unable to act now. Lords of axed in good faith on the state of concerns and sought to address them in the latest iteration of transparency amendment or copyright and AI. Lords Amendments provides flexibility for the government to put in place proportionate regulations on the transparency of enterprises. Importantly, it allows reasonable timeframes for the government to complete its review of responses in its consultation before the Secretary of State is compelled to lay transparency regulations before lay transparency regulations before Parliament.

For the third time, immense on this topic received the overwhelming support of honourable members and the other place, and the debate in the last round showed the strength of feeling is mirrored in this house. Amendment 40 9D is a clause which puts in place a much- needed long stop date to provide certainty that creatives have been calling for as the honourable member suggested a backstop so to speak. The government has run out of excuses for failing to act. Today we have an opportunity to do something rare in the climate to create effective balance legislation based on cross-party compromise.

It is important to show that we are able to put sound principles at the politics when need arises. The government has an opportunity today to let's make sure it is not a to let's make sure it is not a

14:41

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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I rice to speak on amendments as the Bill returns to this house in the House of Lords. I am grateful to fight for creatives, while securing the principle of proportionality. I'm also grateful for cross-party working support in this house and movements from the Secretary of movements from the Secretary of State today. I know many of you have signed various amendment standing up for creatives, and a call for colleagues to consider how they vote today on this amendment.

At its very core, the amendment will look at companies to provide copyright and as with relevant information about how their works are being used for development and training. This is between the data holder and the copyright owner to make sure it is accessible to copyright owners upon request, and behind this are real

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people, real communities and a rich tapestry of 126 billion creative industries. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. My constituency of Stratford-upon-Avon has always been Stratford-upon-Avon has always been a place where arts and creativity flourish. Does my friend agree that flourish. Does my friend agree that government action is needed now to ensure that a British artist, musician, artist and William Shakespeare's of the future are Shakespeare's of the future are fully protected and compensated by

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the big tech companies? Indeed, I was going to say, I'm sure that every MP here will have sure that every MP here will have local creatives from artists. I have Tabatha Mary who has pictures from Tabatha Mary who has pictures from around towns in my constituency. We have musicians, and in have musicians, and in Hertfordshire, we have film studios such as Elstree, Warner Brothers, leaf stem, and I'm sure many of these will be following this debate. Their life's work, their paintings, performances, they are feeding into systems and they have no way of knowing.

They want to work hand-in- hand with technology and AI but our creatives are calling for a fair playing field, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. I was recently approached by the British deaf Association with concerns about AI companies getting videos of BSL without consent from original signers, and I was curious what AI would say about this issue, so I asked it to write in the style of one of the members. I didn't ask the Secretary of State, but I thought it would be quite interesting.

I would highlight it said that the Minister was known for his old articulates style, often leaving sharp analysis with a touch of wit but I will let others be the judge of whether AI has encapsulated that. Ladies and gentlemen, we stand at a crossroads, one where technology and creativity are colliding, not in conflict but collaboration. For centuries, imagination has driven progress, art, design and innovation, and now, AI is in the mix, not replace human ingenuity but to challenge it, expand it, and the question isn't whether AI is coming, it is here, the real question is how do we harness it to elevate human creativity? It asked a very good question, and to harness and elevate that human creativity, they are calling for transparency, so today, we are at the crossroads with the opportunity to debate this, so as the bill is nearing completion, I urge the government to look at this compromise and accept that the tone and the movement today is very welcome and this is very much

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needed. Will the member agree with me that what this proves is that AI that what this proves is that AI can't capture the wit and humour can't capture the wit and humour that is brought to this chamber, and it is a poor copy of what it

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it is a poor copy of what it I think the House has spoken on that. True leadership in AI means building in respectful creativity including in the House of Commons, including in the House of Commons, and we can build an AI power future where technology and human ingenuity where technology and human ingenuity flourish together. But only if we start with transparency. We can be a world leader in setting a standard for creativity technology to work for creativity technology to work together.

So I invite all colleagues from all parties to join us today in supporting amendment 49 D and setting the direction for transparency. And the principle in the age of AI that human creativity still matters.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

14:46

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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This is the second time we have considered this amendment in this House was not this is the second time the government has just said trust me I want to get on with it. They say they want to set up all sorts of working groups, and none of sorts of working groups, and none of us have any definitive objection to what the government wants to do. What we want is action now. The Secretary of State stood and said there is no certainty in the copyright laws just now.

There is absolute certainty, that is exactly what there is. You can check back in Hansard. That is what he said. That is where the concern and anxiety comes in. They might get a technical victory today because of the financial issues once again. But it will come back again from the House of Lords. Everyone is united with the House of Lords when it comes to these issues. And everyone wants a solution, nobody agrees with the government position except that AI firms that seek to benefit from the unauthorised use of our culture.

The anger is growing. Our constituents get increasingly concerned about how our artists are being treated. If you look at Sir Elton John's reaction on Thursday, not just against the government front bench the way he feels so dismissed, that he is even threatening legal action. Surely reform is compromised. And surely it goes some way towards the creative sector in giving them something that they want, this Lords Amendment presents that approach. It respects the financial prerogatives of this government, and it has taken on board what the Frontbench have said.

I would urge the government, please reconsider its position, and engage seriously on the substance of the amendment. The amendment addresses copyright holders calls for transparency without imposing immediate enforcement costs. It does do is require AI developers to provide copyright rules with clear, accurate, relevant and accessible distribution on how their works have been used. Nothing could be fairer than that. What it allows is the than that. What it allows is the government to decide and therefore avoiding obligations on spending.

We must surely start to work together on the basis of what has been agreed between both houses, and try and ensure that we get something that meets everybody's concerns. That has to start with this Lords Amendment. I urge at this late stage for the government to accept it, and encourage the backbenchers who have made fantastic contributions. Who have stood up to this government, vote against them, will show exactly how strong we feel about this issue. So encourage Labour colleagues to back us today this amendment.

14:49

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to say I'm slightly surprised the lack of any government backbencher willing to speak in support of the government's position which means I will have more time available to speak than I had initially thought to be the case. I am not going to repeat a lot of the arguments that we have had in that lengthy debates that have taken place. But I wanted to make one or two map points. The Secretary of State in his contribution said that he had never mentioned the word uncertainty.

I have to say that does contrast with an off a lot of the debate we have had previously when his colleague the Minister for Care rate of industries has talked about there being uncertainty.

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You must've missed several debates why express said I do not think there was any uncertainty

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think there was any uncertainty about the law as it presently stands. I think the ministerial forward

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I think the ministerial forward to the consultation paper actually suggests there was uncertainty. That has been consistently one of the has been consistently one of the reasons why the government says it needs to carry out all of these consultations. Even if the law is consultations. Even if the law is clear, as the secretary of state suggests, I personally believe it is clear, the important thing is it can clear, the important thing is it can only be enforced if those who had their copyright breached are aware their copyright breached are aware that it is taking place.

That is why transparency is critical, something transparency is critical, something I know the Government has acknowledged. The Secretary of State this afternoon has said he will this afternoon has said he will setup more working parties. The concern we have is, as the Secretary of State has just said, large amount of copyrighted material are already scraped by generative AI. In his working parties and further consultation, and we wait to hear when legislation might actually arrive, means it will be another few years before we actually have this on the statute book.

There is an opportunity to have something on the statute book now. And he will be aware that the existing provisions, they are simply being ignored. They are not working. And it is important that we act immediately to send a very clear signal that we expect transparency to be in place for AI generative companies to properly remunerate licence holders. The other provisions I would like to mention, the government have said that the amendment from the House of Lords engages Financial Privilege.

The clerks may have advised. I am merely suggesting that actually it is very unclear. It is very unclear how it can engage Financial Privilege, where it says that the provision of the House of Lords has made does not contain any requirement on the government to indulge in financial expenditure. And I want to say I think it is a worrying precedent, if the government is going to avoid debate

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on the policy by suggesting that it may... Order. I do think it would be

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Order. I do think it would be awful if I clarified that that is a matter for the chair. And not for the government.

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the government. I of course accept the ruling Madam Deputy Speaker. I just say Madam Deputy Speaker. I just say that it looks very strange when that it looks very strange when there is no financial requirement. I will just finish one further point. I understand the Secretary of I understand the Secretary of State's keenness to attract State's keenness to attract investment for the tech companies. I would just say to him that previously, we have debated legislation affecting tech legislation affecting tech companies, on each occasion we have heard that it may result in them being unwilling to come and invest being unwilling to come and invest in this country for that has never been the case.

I hope that the secretary of state will not listen to those who say that if we proceed to enforce copyright law may somehow result in tech companies fighting this country unattractive full stop I don't believe it is the case. I don't believe that it will jeopardise jobs which I know the Government is keen to create. But unless we proceed down this route with the amendment in the House of Lords, it will jeopardise the jobs of the 2.4 million people in this country who are employed in the creative industries.

creative industries.

14:54

Division

The question is that this house disagrees with the Lords in their amendment 49 D. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the

14:55

Division: Lords Amemdment 49D - Government Motion To Disagree.

The The question The question is The question is that The question is that this The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their amendment. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". Tellers for the ayes Kim Eber and Christian Wakeford. Tellers for the noes Charlie Maynard

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Locked Locked the Order, Order, order.

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The eyes to the right, 195. The nose to the left, 124.

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nose to the left, 124. The eyes to the right were 195. The nose to the left, 124, so the The nose to the left, 124, so the eyes have it, the eyes have it. eyes have it, the eyes have it. Unlock. Minister to move that a

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committee be appointed to draw up reasons. I baked a move that a committee

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I baked a move that a committee be appointed to draw up a reason to be assigned to the Lords for be assigned to the Lords for Peter Kyle will be the chair of the committee. That the committee do withdraw. Collins be members of the committee. Peter care be the chair of the committee. The committee do withdraw immediately. As many of that opinion, say I of the contrary, no. opinion, say I of the contrary, no.

That concludes consideration That concludes consideration of That concludes consideration of the Lords message relating to the data use and access bill Lords. We now come to motion number two relating to business at the house today.

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Minister to move. I beg to move.

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I beg to move. The question is is on the order paper. As many of that opinion's AI. paper. As many of that opinion's AI. I think the eyes have it. We now come to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Business

15:09

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the Sixth Report of the Business and Trade Committee, How to strengthen UK-EU relations: Policy Priorities for the Summit, HC 908

statement on behalf of the Business and Trade Committee. Liam Byrne will speak up to 10 minutes during which speak up to 10 minutes during which no interventions can be taken. At the conclusion of his statement, I will ask members to ask questions on will ask members to ask questions on the subject of the statement. They should be brief questions are not should be brief questions are not speeches. Can I emphasise that questions should be directed to the Select Committee chair and not the relevant government minister.

Frontbenchers may take part in questioning.

15:09

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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Thank you. I rise to speak to the house today on behalf of business and trade committee, a roadmap for the EU reset, and in doing, I hope you will forgive me for using this moment to share my profound thanks to the members of the committee who are both diligent and hard-working, and from our earliest days together as a committee, it was very clear to all of us that relationships with the European Union had been trapped in the past while all of that was better, the past was unsatisfactory and could be richer if we chose to reset that with more ambition.

We sense that was part of the government, and we asked ourselves what could be done in order to move forward this relationship not distracted by some kind of fantasy but informed with a real hardheaded and pragmatic focus, so we travel to Brussels to Belfast, to trade unions, diplomats in the European commission, and we looked at trade barriers, and I'm afraid to say an awful lot of lost opportunities. We asked one simple question, how can we make these arrangements better.

We didn't seek to open old wounds. What surprised us is that it was not difficult to find 21 different ways in which our relationship with the European Union could be reset in a way that would make our country better and cut the red tape which is throttling trade with the EU. These are not abstract aspirations. A practical and deliverable and supported by an overwhelming coalition of business groups that we met with. The proposals that we presented were backed by business and good for our country.

We divide the work into three ambitions, opportunities to defend and add opportunities to defend and add prosperity. And third, to cut trade and border. We have coordination to tackle crime at the World Trade Organisation, including UK participation in the new dispute procedures because a rule-based order is not just idealism for us. It is insurance. On energy, we saw something extraordinary, and opportunity to unlock the potential of the Northsea as the world's biggest green energy power station.

But that demanded that we come together with the EU to bring together a single justice mechanism for trading and emissions trading. That could add up to a faster and cheaper part to net-zero for both us and European neighbours. On trade, we welcomed the ambition for an SPF agreement and a fair fisheries deal, but we pressed for some specifics. Mutual recognition of economic operator schemes, bilateral waivers, cooperation around Ro-Ro ferries, rejoining the pen convention, conformity assessment and a long- term roadmap for compatible deals.

We talked about the deeper cooperation on financial services, ensuring access and seeking out a new roadmap for mutual recognition and qualifications, producing barriers for touring artists and implementing overeager capped age With scheme. We published our draft report to test it, but the response was overwhelming. Support levels are between 80 and 90% for the measures that we proposed. Businesses said this is what we need because it will unlock growth, create jobs, and raise wages. On Monday, we saw some signs that the government had listened.

There was useful language on critical national infrastructure. There was a welcome step towards joining electricity and carbon markets together but we have to say that there was much that was left in the to-do pile. There was no ironclad commitment to policy. In my view, there was too little progress on law enforcement cooperation. I acknowledge it may come in the strategy when it was published. We thought there could have been more in financial service on data advocacy and mutual recognition of assessments.

And of course, this is a deal without a date. This was a handshake but not yet a contract. Yet it was an important start. After years of drift and division, this was the first time since Brexit that collectively, we have a chance to stop digging ditches of agreement and start rebuilding some bridges of cooperation. So this was a step forward but it was only a step. And what comes next must be really clear. We must now have a timetable for drawing up, finalising an implement in these agreements.

We think there should be action to take forward the unfinished business which we have set out in this report, and crucially, we think there should be a bigger role of Parliament because Parliament should not be a bystander while our future is forged. So, let's not retreat into the style but work pragmatically in the national interest because that is how futures When we are at our best we choose to lead. So I commend this report to

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the House. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

15:15

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Does my right honourable friend agree that consistency and clarity are exactly what this requires to are exactly what this requires to grow and thrive? This is why the government should consider this recommendation to consult with the industry's recommendation about maintaining the convention. Pan membership could support tariff free trade, simpler Rules of Origin, reduce trade barriers, support key sectors such as automotive, Manufacturing, chemicals and food production. By joining, British businesses would expand preferential market access to 25 countries thereby strengthening supply change and boosting the competitiveness of British exporters.

British exporters.

15:16

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. My honourable friend has made this point repeatedly in deliberations we have had. What has been especially welcome on that committee is the way she consistently brings the perspective of local businesses in her constituency, Dudley, the home of the Industrial Revolution. And she is right to say that subject to consultation in particular around the implications for the EV car industry, there could be some rules of origin that could radically cut red tape for many of the businesses in her constituency many businesses across our country, frankly could lower the cost at a time that it is much needed.

15:17

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the right honourable gentleman and his committee for their extensive piece of work in the reports that he has presented today? He mentioned the wide-ranging different tasks that the UK government had. He recommended that they pursue. Would he agree with me that it is disappointing that, of the things that the UK government wanted to achieve, the movement for touring artists and the participation in EU defence spending are left un-agreed, while the UK government seems to have agreed and traded one of our most valuable parts of the negotiation which is the access to our fishing grounds?

15:18

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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I am very grateful for that point. She, like me, will know that although fisheries and the fishing industry constitutes quite a small part of our economy, 0.4% of GDP, for many coastal units this is an absolutely vital industry. Nevertheless, we felt, or certainly Nevertheless, we felt, or certainly I felt that the prize of an SPS agreement which can be worth a huge boost of up to £3 billion of four blue pounds a year, plus opportunities for shellfish in particular, was potentially a prize that was worth having.

But she is right to say that would be the biggest concern that many of us should have was around defence industrial cooperation. We cannot defend Europe in the way that we should. We cannot spend the increases in defence spending in the way that we should unless we reorganise Europeans fragmented defence industrial base. We cannot be stronger together unless we build that shared defence base together. I would very much hope this is something on which we will give an awful lot more progress in the Strategic Defence Review and indeed

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the national security review when those strategies are presented to Parliament before the summer recess. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

15:19

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Reports covered how we could help businesses export to the EU. I was businesses export to the EU. I was delighted to see Scottish salmon come out in support of the deal this week. Does my friend agree with me that it was baffling to the SNP stand with Reform and the Tories in

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opposition to the deal? The consensus that we received when we published the draft of it when we published the draft of it was overwhelming. The measures that we proposed were backed by an enormous majority of business

15:19

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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enormous majority of business groups, including groups across Scotland. What I think business really sore is a very practical, hardheaded, recommendation, a set of recommendations I think should not only be supported by the Frontbench should be supported by those in public life across our country.

15:20

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And thank you Chair for your leadership and hard work on the committee. I very much welcome the moves this week, and I think they are moving in the right direction and aspirational statements of intent moving in the right direction. Does the chair back agree that we should focus on the big stuff? In terms of this, proportionality, the deal in India gets 0.1% of GDP by 2014. The American pack to get us back to a worse position than we were six months ago.

So Europe is where it is at the Europe represents 45% of our trade versus 12% in the US. And the 21 statements we set out were very beneficial of which five and six have been hit. The key thing is trying to go for the big stuff such as being back inside the customs union. That would make a big difference.

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The reports could not have been as well-written and strong and robust is recommendations that the

15:21

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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robust is recommendations that the input of the honourable Member. We are very grateful for the hard work he put into getting this report rights. It wasn't a proposal as he knows, perhaps because the committee was not in unanimity to agree a bespoke customs union to stop what was striking is that the measures that were set out have been significant enough to offset the economic damage that we will suffer because of the tariffs introduced by resident drum. He is right that it is always wise to focus on the numbers, and the big numbers in trade come from a better stronger close relationship with the European Union.

15:22

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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I congratulate the right honourable member for his stewardship of the committee. My inbox is full of emails from local businesses believe that after years of hesitation and no progress being put forward, finally we are in a dialogue with the EU about improving access to the EU for businesses in my constituency. Would he agree with me, by continuously speaking with the EU, and dealing with the red tape that has been promised to many businesses, we can finally get

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proper access to open up the markets that were leading companies need to access? My honourable friend has consistently been a strong voice for

15:22

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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consistently been a strong voice for the does this community in his constituency since he joined us. He is absolutely right to say that what has for a long time been lacking in relationship with the EU is the kinetic energy that is required to drive any bureaucracy forward. The number of working groups that were set up, and I think in a cross-party spirit, I would say that it is important to note that the mood in Brussels significantly changed under the last prime minister, and progress that was made in that Windsor Framework, but unless you invest significant amounts of political attention and energy, things will not move forward.

There is still a long way to go. We have set out where things need to change this report but politics is what changes things was the and I hope it is something that can be sustained for the future.

15:23

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you to the honourable gentleman for his adroit chairmanship of the committee which has allowed for cross-party working which has been refreshing and good. It is a moment of regret, we did flag at the danger to fragile coastal communities that a deal on fishing could damage them badly, and the 12 year deal goes beyond anything we imagine. That will harm communities across Britain and particularly in Scotland. That's unfortunate. Would he agree with me that achieving an SPS deal must be balanced with the other deals that are coming down the tracks, India, America, and so forth? And we must have due care and I'm sure the committee will look at this, we must look to make sure that the Brexit Freedoms Bill allow us to strike those deals are not damaged.

To those deals are not damaged. To

15:24

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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Your judgement is right. As we were composing this report, the honourable gentleman was consistently talking about the risks for Coastal Community Team if the deal goes the wrong way. We are all incredible grateful to him for advice you provided. He is right to say that we have obviously got to make sure we enshrine certain standards that allow us to draw close to Europe without compromising the alliances that are already coming into place or those who still need to strike to restore our role as the great free trading nation of this planet.

So the way in which the government is seeking to test this agreement with the United States, with a leadership of the CPTPP, with the deal with India, and with the deal is yet to come, with Korea and Switzerland, it is something that needs to be very carefully balanced. It looks like the government has just about got it right. I know that he likely will want that committee

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to keep an extremely close eye on this as the trade talks proceed. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And I thank my honourable Friend for

15:25

James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)

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And I thank my honourable Friend for the excellent report which is very much rooted in pragmatism and practical steps which I note my constituents welcome. He has highlighted a gap as he sees it, the first step a lot more to do to stop what is committee undertake to monitor that gap between what the government is committed to and where he would like the government to be? Will he and his committee therefore continue recommendations to the

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government? My honourable friend disability rights to point this out. Good news

15:26

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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rights to point this out. Good news for the Minister as he is now got the scrutiny framework in front of him that the committee will use to judge the progress that he is making, and of course this Parliament. But there is a moment that is still to come in this Parliament because at some point, we are not quite sure when, at some point there will need to be treaties that go before this house and this House has 21 days to scrutinise it.

That is not very long because of the committee has decided this week that we will open inquiries on the EU deal, the India deal, and the United States will stop we will seek to look at each of these trade deals before the summer so that the House be as well-informed as possible when the process begins. So we can really zero in on the issues that are at stake for our constituents.

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to the chair of the

15:27

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm grateful to the chair of the Business and Trade Committee, for this thorough set of proposals and particularly the call for a greater role for Parliament. The committee rated its 20 proposals and marked as green UK-EU security act. But yet the Prime Minister a spokesman admitted that this is a first step towards UK participation in Europe's defence and divestment program. And I wondered if it open the door to joint procurement. Can the committee chair acknowledge how much more there is to do before this amounts to a shared industrial defence base?

15:27

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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Yes, the other member is right. He knows because the extraordinary record of service that he brings to this place that there is an immense amount of work that we still need to do to conquer inefficiencies and fragmentation in the European defence industrial base. We cannot spend the money that we are proposing to spend on defence wisely unless we change the way that we procure equipment, by providing on the one hand greater certainty and long-term contracts, but also helping ensure that we are building that innovative ecosystem funding to help smaller innovative nimble agile suppliers come forward in the way that they can in order to ensure that the lessons that we have learnt on the battlefields of Ukraine do actually help inform our military strategy the future.

If there is one lesson we have learned, it is that any war fighting capability depends on the strength of our defence industrial base. Quite honestly to date is not in the right place, and we have to work hard on that with our partners. I hope the Strategic Defence Review set out some practical steps for how we will do that together with our allies in Europe.

15:28

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Congratulate the right honourable gentleman on his statement, and for the work of his committee. Clearly, renewable energy is an important part of our relationship with the European Union. What opportunity did his committee have to examine that, the trade and energy between the UK and European Union, particularly in the light of that civility in the near future of the deal between Morocco and the UK by way of the UK Morocco power projects? Who would know that if UK was to greenlight this, then other European countries certainly will.

15:29

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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The honourable member is actually right to say that Morocco is a country that we should be working more closely with, it is an exciting proposal. As a stable long-term partner to Europe, Morocco is a country with which we have a shared interest in the future. But I think the perspective that we brought to this question is how do we ensure a faster, cheaper, less resilient path to net zero for us and Europe? What was striking was evidence we had from any in the electricity and energy sectors about almost the thoughtless way we have been disconnected from electricity trading schemes.

What worried us in the near term is that, if we have, as we do, different carbon prices in the UK and Europe, there was a real risk that if Europe introduced a Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, and we do later on, there will almost be tariff created because of the different prices. So we think the government has really done well in seizing that win-win, but that is not to take anything away from the project and the force of his remarks ultimately we need several big infrastructure initiatives like this if we are to do what we all know needs to be done in this country which is to drive down industrial electricity prices.

15:31

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the Third Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Legislative Scrutiny: Mental Health Bill, HC 601

We come to the select committee statement on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Peter Swallow will speak for up to 10 minutes during which no interventions will be taken, and at the conclusion of his statement, I will, but to ask questions on the subject of the statement. These should be brief questions or speeches. Can I emphasise that questions must be directed to the celebrity member and not the relevant Government Minister. An Front Benchers may take part in Front Benchers may take part in

15:31

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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It is an honour to present this report to the Mental Health Bill. The joint committee of the cross- party body of both houses, the remote is relating to matters of human rights in the UK, including with legislative scrutiny. Over the course of our inquiry into the bill, we have examined legal frameworks, witness admissions, and crucially, the voices of those with direct experience of the mental health system. As part of our inquiry, the committee can be a roundtable with individuals who have had experienced attention under the Mental Health Act, the testimonies were powerful, candid and often harrowing.

We spoke of the trauma of being sectioned, the overuse of medication and restraint, and the disempowerment of being attained in facilities that often felt isolated rather than therapeutic. Participants have since shared with us how important this visibility was to them, to see their evidence truly listened to and shared publicly. Hearing directly from people with lived experience was not just informative, it was essential. These conversations are granted scrutiny and realities faced by patients and families at the insights shared at that roundtable shaped our thinking and sharpened our final recommendations.

As one participant told us, lived experience matters. Using it to inform policy should be the standard inform policy should be the standard not the shop. -- Not a shock. However to take this opportunity to thank all of those who contributed to the roundtable often at the cost of revisiting past trauma. The committee is also dreadful for the expert work of the committee's legal counsel, particularly Alex, who led on this work, as well as those who led on the delivery of the roundtable event.

What became clear over the course of our scrutiny is just how overdue the Mental Health Bill is. It will introduce substantial changes to the Mental For the treatment of people with mental disorders, an outdated term but one that still remains part of our law. The changes introduced by the bill will bring our mental health legislation into the 21st- century, strengthen patient rights and help end practices which bring more harm than good. When people hear about detention under the Mental Health Act, many extensively think of those who have committed the most serious and violent crimes.

They picture high security hospitals, like Broadmoor, who -- Which happens to be located in my own constituency. I have had the opportunity to visit Broadmoor, the work they do there is outstanding and vital work that deals with some of the most complex and challenging cases, in psychiatric medicine. Let us be clear, the reality of detention under the Mental Health Act is not limited to high security hospitals or individuals convicted of serious crimes. Many people detained under the current Mental Health Act are not criminals.

Many of them are children, young people, and adults with autism or learning disabilities, who are detained, not because they pose a danger to others, but because the support they need in their communities simply isn't there. This isn't just inefficient, it can often be deeply traumatising, and raises significant human rights concerns. That is why the committee welcomes major changes by the government's bill. The bill will end the detention of individuals under section 3 of the Mental Health Act, solely on the basis they are autistic or have learning disability, tightening the criteria of detention, when decision-makers considering the nature, degree of likelihood of harm, before deciding to detain.

Introduce the concept of a nominated person to replace the outdated system. And it will remove police stations and prisons as places of safety for individuals in crisis. As stated in the evidence we received from witnesses, these are important, welcomed, and long-awaited reforms. They reflect the breadth of the government consultations in this area, and prove that the government has listened to the information received. While welcoming the bill's direction of -- Travel, the committee believes there are areas the government can go even further to provide enhanced protection for human rights.

That is why we have recommended a few key amendments based on the evidence we received during the requirement. First, we recommend a new clause to ensure children detained under the Mental Health Act are only accommodated on adult wards, where it is demonstrably in their best interest. Second, we recommend an amendment to clause one, to include equity as 1/5 guiding principle under the act. This principle would refer specifically to addressing inequalities in treatment and outcomes, particularly on racial grounds. I welcome the fact the Health Secretary in a debate on the second reading on Monday recognised " People of ethnic minority communities, especially black, African and Caribbean men, more than three times lightly to be section." Our report found that adding this guiding principle of this act would do more to address this racial disparity we recommend an amendment to clause 32 to shorten the review.

Forest of Dean patients discharged with conditions and liberty. The first review would be required within six months rather than 12 and subsequent reviews will take place annually, rather than every two years. These key amendments, admits a range of other amendments. This caselaw has shown patience state commissioned and funded but privately provided care do not, with the protection of the Human Rights Act. This is a loophole which needs to be closed and we recommend for the government to do just that.

We also heard evidence that the question of when the Mental Health Act and when the Mental Capacity Act should govern a patient's deprivation of liberty and treatment, it is far too complex. Raising human rights concerns not least because depriving a person of their liberty on any grounds can only be justified in the legal basis is clear. We therefore recommend the government carry out an urgent review and provide clarity that is lacking on this issue. Another crucial area covered by this bill is the rights of children who are particularly vulnerable when assessed or treated under the Mental Health Act.

Many of the proposed changes to the law will be positive for children, including the introduction of a mental health approach to receiving reports from independent Mental Health Act the cuts. We recommend -- Advocates, we reckon however introducing a statutory test for testing whether 16 are competent to consent or refuse consent to treatment. A cornerstone of compliance with the child's human rights. What the committee also says is have them transferred properly to settings. Keeping them in prison may result in human rights breaches.

We therefore welcome the bill is a deduction of a statutory 20th day timeframe for hospital transfers. And relevant data should be collected and made available to monitor and help ensure compliance with the standard. Madame Deputy Speaker, the committee also welcomes changes to restrictions placed on a small number of offenders, detained under the hospital order. But the government should consider introducing more prompt and regular reviews, by the mental health tribunal to ensure that any loss is justified. What is has told us is the absence of effective support in the committee, autistic people and people with learning disabilities could still end up in unjustified detention on other legal basis.

The government has stated the change in the bill will come into force, only when there are strong community services in place. But it is vital this does not lead to delays in the much- needed reform. We therefore welcome the government's commitment to provide a written ministerial statement both Houses of Parliament on the basis and progress of implementation for top in terms of what water bill could do to improve the prospects of patients receiving timely care within the community, we also asked the government to consider introducing English equivalent to the right on mental health assessment that applies in Wales.

Finally, Madame Deputy Speaker, let me just say this report makes clear there is much more needed to fix the broken mental health system in this country. And I know the government recognises this as well. This is a small targeted bill, which will not change everything. But the changes it does introduce a significant and long overdue. The government also committed to introduce mental health experts in every school, setting of young future hubs and recruiting thousands more mental health staff, by focusing on community-based interventions and driving down waiting this for mental health support alongside welcome changes in this bill.

We can turn the tide and fix a broken mental health system. So all those with mental health needs can be properly protected and get the support they need. I commend get the support they need. I commend this report to the House.

15:40

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. And can I commend the honourable member and his committee for the report and on this site, we are looking very favourably at it, especially as we go to committee stage. I have a technical question. He talked about restraint for people who have autism and learning different disabilities. Currently, the review timetable to work out whether they have a mental health disorder or whether it is related to their condition or if it is 28 days, I wonder if they had a look at the human rights aspect to know whether or not it is the right time to make that assessment.

15:41

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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We did certainly look at the process for assessing people as to whether it was appropriate at this issue very much came up. It was one where absolutely the individual's human rights are exercised, and the careful balance between the need to protect them, and those around them, and ensure that the deprivation of liberty is only ever a last resort, and must be carefully struck. From the top of my head, I seem to remember the report finds the balance, as currently lands, is balance, as currently lands, is appropriate.

Albeit, it is one the government should look at going forward, and certainly, if I have got that wrong, I will have the correct record at a future date.

15:42

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the honourable member for his report. I was really interested in at the point he made about the equipment between England and Wales about the right to a mental health assessment. With mental health admissions to acute settings, increasing year by year, would he agree with me that if we were to introduce such an equivalent to England, it could help drastically improve admissions, if we weren't waiting for those crisis points, failing people, particularly to get the support they need?

15:42

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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I think my honourable friend makes a really good point. And it is so vital, as we have seen across health, across education, across the justice system, that we get back to a place where we are focused, laser light on earlier -- Laserlike on earlier interventions because the earlier we intervene, the better it is for all involved. I think what he suggests, improving our mental health system, potentially through this measure, as recommended in the report, would have the effect of meaning that we do not get to crisis point, we do not get to the point where individuals have to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

But instead, the community support, which we know works when it is there, can be used instead to provide the support needed for these individuals.

15:43

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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I am grateful to the joint committee for the report in relation to the Mental Health Bill. Another committee's call for more prompt and regular reviews by the mental health tribunal, the basis for this: The report was the compliance under liberty for the individual full support he agree that regular reviews by the tribunal are also in the interest of families and neighbours of mental health patients, given how disruptive and upsetting it can be for families and neighbours to have patients living in the community?

15:44

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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Absolutely, and he heard through our reporting of families, particularly families where their child is in treatment. Industries, particularly when it is happening, and quite a long way away from where that family lives, making access that family memo more difficult. The point he makes is really important. Of course, the human rights committee was scrutinising this bill through the lens of human rights. Though it was important to us, as I said, in the statement that we get the experience of those who have lived experience of the mental health system, to inform our recommendations, and absolutely, the point he makes is a very powerful one.

15:44

Backbench Business: General Debate on access to NHS dentistry

We now come to the backbench debate on access to NHS dentistry.

15:45

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Madame Deputy Speaker. I would like to start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this debate and to the colleague that supported that application. I am pleased there are lots of people who want to speak, I am aware of the time limit, so I'm going to keep my remarks short. During the general election, Labour promised to tackle the lack of NHS dental services and I welcome the progress already made in its first 10 months.

After 14 years of neglect, we are finally starting to see action to address the crisis in NHS dental care. Including the launch of 700,000 extra urgent dental appointments with my own Integrated Care Board, in Humber and North Yorkshire, delivering 27,196 of those across the region. This government is rightly focusing on prevention, by rolling out much-needed supervised toothbrushing schemes in schools, it is a small intervention with long- term benefits, particularly the children growing up in areas like mine where levels of tooth decay are among the highest in England, currently one in 35 euros in deprived areas experienced tooth decay.

This is a shocking statistic. It simply must be addressed. Over 260,000 people have signed a petition made by the British dental Association, the Women's Institute, as the daily Mirror, calling on the government, to urgently deliver on their promise to reform NHS dentistry. The demand can be more urgent. Catherine, one of many constituents, has written to me with issues about dental provision locally, had been with her dentist for over a decade. But during the pandemic, a missed appointment that was cancelled by the surgery itself saw her removed from her regular appointments and she has since been unable to join another practice being told waiting lists would take In the meantime, she's had devastating deterioration to a dental health, losing all of her back teeth and the real fear of losing her top teeth.

She is only in her 40s and was quoted £40,000 privately for treatment. She cannot afford that. She has had to endure constant pain that no one should have to. Constituents regularly tell me they cannot find an NHS dentist taking new patients and calling every practice listed on the website and are getting nowhere. People are living in pain, missing work, mental health is suffering and there are examples of people attempting to do dental work for themselves. We cannot allow this to become the norm.

The desire for action is supported by dental practices in my constituency and one told me they are seeing high need patients they have not treated before, often for complex work, but the same budget they have had for years and some of the new argent care and skills-based initiatives are not adequately funded. In England, latest figures show dentists are delivering the riskier with only 39% spending more time on NHS were compared to 60% in Scotland. Practices are delivering NHS treatment at a loss, losing £42 for every denture fitted.

This labour government pledged to reform the dental contract. It was in the manifesto. It was part of the plan we were elected on. I welcome early signs of recovery but can we say we want to go further faster, it is on issues like this that the public are looking to government to deliver. Across the nation, we are privileged to have so many dedicated dental professionals. Tomorrow, I visit Dental Design Studio to celebrate 20 years of high quality provision and it's a credit to the team who have delivered consistently to local people, often under increasing strain and young people are also not forgotten and thanks to the commitment of a local dentist, multiple young people have received essential support.

We must not let dentistry become a luxury service only for those who could afford to go private. We need a new approach that is fair, funds dentists properly and delivers accessible

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care for everyone who needs it. The question is as on the order paper. We have so many people wishing to contribute and have to conclude by 5 PM and saw the time limit is three minutes. I think that

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you can manage it. Thank you for that non-pressure

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Thank you for that non-pressure introduction and I congratulate the introduction and I congratulate the honourable lady on her speech, every part of which I agree with. I was hoping to quote from individual hoping to quote from individual cases of constituents from the local Women's Institute that will have to Women's Institute that will have to go by the board and I have a wonderful briefing from the British wonderful briefing from the British dental Association and I would like,

15:51

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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in the remaining 2.5 minutes, to make a pertinent observation from make a pertinent observation from which I think everything else flows. Dentistry is a highly skilled profession in which practitioners profession in which practitioners can charge colossal sums of money for private practice. Thus, this for private practice. Thus, this gives them financial incentive to steer clear of working for the NHS. This is the root of the problem and This is the root of the problem and I was pleasantly surprised when I I was pleasantly surprised when I put to the Secretary of State for health a point made by the report health a point made by the report last September and I put it to him last September and I put it to him on March 13 and I quoted the reporter as saying there are enough dentist but not enough willing to do NHS work and this impacts provision for the most poor in society.

His reply was that NHS dentistry is in a terrible state and in many parts of the country it barely exists. There are lots of reasons for that and it's a source of constant astonishment that the dentistry budget was underspent year after year, despite the situation but the reality is, of course, that the reality is, of course, that the reason why it is underspent is not because of the lack of demand but because NHS practices cannot fill vacancies and are not able to meet contractual commitments and therefore those who work with and for the NHS are having to deliver dental care at a loss and so there is a fundamental requirement for a rewritten constitution and contract by which it becomes worthwhile for people to practice dentistry in the NHS because otherwise we are going to see a two-tier society in which only the rich can get the dental care that they desperately need.

15:52

Irene Campbell MP (North Ayrshire and Arran, Labour)

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When the NHS was introduced, it made the biggest positive changes ever to the health of the general population and the original booklet from 1948 stated that it would provide all medical, dental and nursing care and everyone, rich or poor, mind ribbon or child can use at and on the topic of dentistry it said after July 5 that we could go to any dentist taking part in the new arrangements and find a list of them at the post office and at that time 93% of registered dentist signed up for the NHS.

66% in England are signed up for the NHS which is a significant reduction since the early days and this reduction demonstrates a barrier to access and as a former NHS manager in Scotland, I've seen the importance of early intervention when it comes to health inequalities and particularly in dentistry. Scotland has a crisis of access with decreasing levels of participating dentists and these lower levels of participation affect patient access to dental services and to pick up early signs of decay and cancers and other serious issues which result in higher cost to the NHS but worse outcomes for patients.

Additionally, children and adults from deprived areas were less likely than wealthier counterparts to have seen the dentist in the last two years and recent statistics from Public Health Scotland show 59.9% from deprived areas have seen the dentist in recent years compared to 75.8% for the least deprived areas and this was higher for adults. In September 2008, the gap in participation between the most and least deprived areas was three percentage points and this increased to seven to 7 x 2010 and 18% by to seven to 7 x 2010 and 18% by 2021.

And then 20 percentage points in 2023. We cannot let this continue. As oral health inequalities continue to grow, it's important the NHS strategy involves a focus on increasing participation and access in more deprived areas, otherwise, we will continue to see worrying trends like this which cause serious problems further down the line. Morrison.

15:55

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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NHS dentist quite honestly I sense because, as my right honourable friend has said, the reason we don't have NHS dentist is because it's more remunerative to do expensive dental work rather than the sort of grounding service work that NHS dentistry implies and the reason for that fundamentally is because of the new contract introduced in 2006 and that is the introduced in 2006 and that is the problem. Years of inactivity have played NHS dentistry for all of these years and I'm delighted the government is revising the contract that its predecessor introduced 20 years ago but unless he is prepared to underwrite it, I'm afraid that we will still be more or less in the same position and it is as if we are not trading dentist because we are training more and more and there are more dental schools and rightly so if those professions are going to practice in the NHS, they must be incentivised to do so and I will give way., I agree about the 2006 NHS dentistry contract which needed to be revised.

Why did his party not

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do that in 14 years in government? He has destroyed the way in which

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He has destroyed the way in which I was trying to introduce my remarks and if I go on to explain I think there has been a conspiracy of silence, all of these years, over NHS data and what the government NHS data and what the government must get to grips with is whether it intends that dentistry should intends that dentistry should continue to be a universal part of continue to be a universal part of the NHS or not and whether it will be exempted from the universality be exempted from the universality that has characterised the provision of healthcare services in the country since 1948.

The government country since 1948. The government could decide that dentistry is like optics and in the 1940s it was optics and in the 1940s it was deliberately excluded from NHS provision but I'm not recommending it but I am recommending to the Minister that we are honest with the public because at the moment we have this pretence around NHS dentistry that says of course you have the right to have your teeth fixed at no cost to you at all upfront but in reality, in most parts of the country, mine included, that is a complete fiction.

When the government comes to new arrangements and I welcome that very much, can we firstly have some honesty and can we have some money behind it and can we have some idea about what part of the current NHS provision the government intends to de-prioritise if it is its intention to make sure that we truly have universal provision of NHS dentistry going

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forward? I would like to thank my

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I would like to thank my

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I would like to thank my honourable friend, for securing the bid today and today marks one year since the general election was called and over the years before called and over the years before that I was knocking on doors and listening to people across my

15:59

Claire Hazelgrove MP (Filton and Bradley Stoke, Labour)

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listening to people across my constituency and I still am. One issue often raised with me was how hard it had become to find and keep an NHS dentist and lifting and acting on what matters locally, I took up the campaign. I took the issues up with the shadow health secretary at the time and he met with me before the election but there was no change from the party opposite devoted against Labour plans to rescue NHS dentistry and remarkably continue to do nothing.

It is far from a deterrent and I also ran a survey asking local people what their experiences have been and I would like to thank fellow residents are to be time to complete this because the findings were clear. Only 31% of those who completed the survey had an NHS dentist and that is almost everyone without one, 97%, wanted one. 65% of those without one said it was because there's was private annually all responders, 94%, agreed the Labour plans to open up 700,000 more urgent appointments per year would help.

There was no reaction from the Conservatives and a lot of people voted for change. My first question in this House was around ensuring we have the right infrastructure, including dentist, as communities grow and living locally, I know how challenging this has become and I don't have an NHS dentist. While receiving the official designation isn't something anyone wants for the community, I was relieved that we have a government that recognises the challenges that we face and so the action of this government means that across the area, we will have an extra 90,000 urgent appointments and I know this will be within it and reforming the dental contract and looking at how we can encourage more dentist to stay within the NHS and getting back to that place where, whether you like or not, you can put the calendar back on.

I will not stand for a future where as many as six in 10 children have rotting teeth by the age of five as they do in the Britain we have inherited. I will not stand for a future when the most common reason for children most common reason for children I will continue to campaign for good access to dentists, and want a government I can work with rather than fight against to get the NHS dentist services we need locally.

16:01

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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Since I was elected to my constituency, I have been approached by many residents, quoting impossible prices for dental treatment. One caring for her husband with terminal bowel cancer, you would think she has nothing to worry about, with the state of dental services in the area, she has been unable to find an NHS dentist for 20 miles radius, forced to go private, she paid £80 for an assessment and was then quoted £150 for an extraction. She asked simply, when will an alternative to private industry be available? I also heard from Sally, her family were denied an NHS root canal treatment, with an £800 private auction as the only £800 private auction as the only alternative.

From a private option. She says how can we trust the advice when we feel it is all about the money? Of course, this is a crisis not of dentists but of dentistry. The NHS contract, based as it is on dental 50, is simply no longer fit for purpose if it ever was. The conflict of interest between public and private is the result of more and more dentists are being forced to subsidise the NHS contract with private work. The government has committed to providing more support and more urgent appointments.

But it is hard to get enough new employees through the front door when so many continue to leave by the back. In an area covered by my local Integrated Care Board, there are more people leaving than joining across many key dental roles. These are the figures for a six-month period to the end of March last year. General dentists, 41 in, 43 outcome orthodontists, one in, two out, dental nurses, 48 incomer 60 out, receptionists, 48 in, 48 out, in fact 4/9 roles in it dental clinics have been losing staff faster than they can get new ones.

The result of course is ever declining access to NHS dental services. With children losing their teeth before they have even reached the age of 10 and the horror stories of DIY dental treatment. I would like to leave you with the words of the West Sussex local dental community who contacted me just weeks after my election last year, regarding the NHS dental contract. Their warning was simple. And I quote " If we do not act quickly, they may be very little NHS left to adopt a new NHS contract." I accept the present government were not responsible for causing this problem but they are responsible for having to fix it.

Thank you.

16:04

Ben Goldsborough MP (South Norfolk, Labour)

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A crisis has unfolded quietly but painfully in Norfolk and it is one we cannot afford to ignore any longer. It is the crisis of the worsening state of NHS dentistry. Just 13.6% of adults in Norfolk and seen an NHS dentist in the last two years, well below the national average of 40%. The children, the picture is even worse, only 40 but 7% scene, compared to 55% nationally. A&E visits due to dental problems arising in the East of England, we have seen 152.6 visits per 100,000 people.

Worse in London, the south-east, Midlands, the only region to be worse than us is the south-west. We now have just 328 dentists with any NHS activity in Norfolk and Waverley. Down to 423 and 2019, that is one dentist for every 3177 people. One of my constituents recently ran 111 with a swollen face from an infected tooth. They contacted six emergency dentists and couldn't get seen by a single one. They were forced to go private, paying over £1000. That simply isn't good enough in a modern

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society. Of course. I thank my honourable friend for giving way, he is setting out an giving way, he is setting out an eloquent case for why we need improvement in dentistry. Does he agree with me that the access crisis agree with me that the access crisis we are seeing today is the result of a decade of underfunding and contract failure. In Basingstoke, contract failure. In Basingstoke, similar to his constituency, to thirds of adults, nearly half of children, didn't see a dentist last year, does he believe it goes beyond the postcode lottery and is in fact

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a systemic failure? I thank my honourable friend and

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I thank my honourable friend and it is as if he has read the next part of my speech as well. Madame Deputy Speaker, the Secretary of Deputy Speaker, the Secretary of State himself has described our area as a Sahara of dental deserts, I agree but we need more than just a agree but we need more than just a diagnosis, we need solutions, I urge the government to invest in a new dental school, in the Edith medical campus in South Norfolk, we need to train dentists where they are needed and keep them there.

We also encourage also all dentists to increase the government's survey before 16 June, but insight must lead to reform, starting with the broken NHS dental contract, Norfolk has been taken for granted for too long. Our county is ready for change and I know my honourable friends will work together to deliver it, because only by working together can we unlock the dental revolution that we need across Norfolk. we need across Norfolk.

16:06

Alison Griffiths MP (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. It is an honour to speak in the debate today, to raise the plight of my constituents in Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, some of those who are struggling in silence, pain, and frustration. Simply trying to access basic NHS dental care. But I would also like to thank the honourable member for great Walmsley in Cleethorpes for bringing this debate, and also that I share her views on pretty much every thing she has said. But particularly, on the wider impact of poor dentistry on A&E, the NHS more widely, and particularly on cardiac health.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I have many constituents' testimony to refer to today. Let me begin with a real story from a real person who has worked tirelessly her entire life, and now, due to long COVID, is housebound and dependent. When she missed one single NHS dental appointment, due to illness, she was removed from the list. Since then, she has not been able to find another NHS dentist. When infection struck, she waited a week for emergency care at Saint Richard's Hospital, and she is not alone.

In 2023, only 24.7% of adults in the south-east was seen by an NHS dentist in a previous two years. The second lowest rate in England. In some areas, fewer than one in five adults have been able to access NHS dentistry. Yes, the government have dentistry. Yes, the government have Urgent care dental appointments for Sussex, a rise of 245-455 per week. The £20,000 relocation incentive to attract dentists to underserved areas and 17 of these posts have been approved for Sussex.

And whilst I welcome these steps, they are not enough. The DD you and the Public Accounts Committee have made it clear, as other colleagues have said, the NHS contact is broken. This incentivise in dentists from treating those patients with the treating those patients with the greatest needs. In 2022, 91% of dentists surveyed felt worn out. 84% reported burnout. They are walking away from NHS dentistry. Not out of disinterest but because the system is unsustainable. So, I ask the Minister, how many of the urgent contracts are now available, and when will real contract reform take place?

16:10

Jo Platt MP (Leigh and Atherton, Labour )

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My very good friend who is no longer... Oh, she is in her place, so sorry, the honourable member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, the party long, people across the country have struggled with NHS dental care, to my own constituency, I have heard heartbreaking stories, one constituent has struggled to find an NHS dentist, which has left him without access to the dangers he needs. He told me, all I want is to return to, as I have always worked, but have no upper teeth, it is holding me back, as I am so embarrassed.

Poor dental health should not be a barrier for individuals returning to work and my constituent's situation is unacceptable, that simply shouldn't happen. But there are glimmers of hope. This announcement of 700,000 extra urgent dental appointments is a vital step forward and in Greater Manchester alone, nearly 18,000 of those appointments will be delivered, including four residents who have been waiting far too long. It is recognition that action is overdue. But for this to work, we need the workforce in place. And that is where the challenge remains.

At the railway road dental practice in Italy, they have been trying to replace the senior dentist for nearly 9 years, despite advertising, there has been no interest. It's a clear sign that practices, particularly in areas of high deprivation, need better support to attract and retrain staff. However, this government's golden hello scheme is a smart move, offering financial incentives to bring dentists into the areas that need them most. And through the NHS long-term workforce plan, we are increasing dental training places by 40%.

And like the honourable gentleman for New Forest East, we must also acknowledge the people who have kept the NHS dentistry going through difficult times. They want to pay -- I want to pay DB2 Mr Banks, a local dentist who was given 53 years of his life to the NHS. And his service to the people is nothing short of remarkable. And I thank you sincerely for it. So yes, the challenge is big, but I am encouraged by the steps being taken, the extra appointments, the investment in workforce, the renewed focus on prevention, these are all signs we are finally facing up to the crisis.

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I congratulate the honourable member for securing this debate. I member for securing this debate. I was delighted to be able to respond and sponsor her application, because

16:12

Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)

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and sponsor her application, because it is an issue that deeply affects my constituents. It is a crisis nationally and nowhere is it felt more so than rural communities, like West Dorset. In my constituency, we have just 15 dental practices offering any form of NHS dental care, serving a population of more than 94,000 people. The consequence is... I will give way.

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I have to confess that I rather envy the honourable member that he has 15, when I have a me and nine. has 15, when I have a me and nine. In fact, it came evident in the inquiry, my constituency has fewer inquiry, my constituency has fewer dentists than anywhere else in the dentists than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. And in my view... Sorry, it is really important that we carry on lobbying the ICBs

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we carry on lobbying the ICBs because they are the ones giving out contracts. Thank you for I thank her for her intervention

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I thank her for her intervention and I know she suffers from a lot of the same issues that West Dorset does, given the similarity of our does, given the similarity of our constituencies. The consequences are stark, only 36% of adults in West Dorset have seen a dentist in the Dorset have seen a dentist in the last two years, just 50% of children have had a dental appointment in that time, and that is an alarming that time, and that is an alarming 9% lower than in 2019.

I know the government has announced a rescue plan to provide 700,000 more urgent dental appointments, and to recruit new dentists to areas that need them most and that is welcome news, but I must ask the Minister, how exactly are areas that need the most being assessed? And what specific provisions are being made to ensure that rural areas like West Dorset, where the population density is low but unmet demand is high, not once again it left behind. I will give way.

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Thank you for giving way. In

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Thank you for giving way. In Devon, we have a budget of £377,000 to recruit new dentists. Sadly, only to recruit new dentists. Sadly, only two of the 20 dentists have actually been recruited. Would my colleague been recruited. Would my colleague agree with me that this demonstrates agree with me that this demonstrates that the Golden Hello Schemes of the Conservatives have completely failed and we desperately need a new

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contract now? I thank my honourable friend, and he is right, a lot of this does come he is right, a lot of this does come down to the funding model. Because when funding is allocated by the current funding models, it is always rural communities that lose out. I ask the plurality of places like West Dorset be recognised when considering resource allocation because in the south-west, we have the highest rate of dental related early visits 4.217 per 100,000 people, that is one in every 460 people turning to emergency care because they cannot get an NHS dentist appointment.

These issues are flooding our hospitals because we are failing to resource our community dental services. The government has made some minor tweaks to the dysfunctional NHS contract and it is welcome, an all- time low of 60% of dentists in England are thinking of leaving the NHS altogether, the current contract often leaves dentists money on airy NHS patient a safer suffering, typical dentist lose £40.60 per denture fitting. It is unsustainable and it is time to reform the system as a whole, because change cannot wait.

I ask the government to come forward with a clear timeline for negotiating on contract reform and to properly support Integrated Care Boards, as my colleague asset, ring faced -- Ring fenced funding. Calling for a comprehensive dental package that would guarantee access to NHS dentist, for everyone in need of urgent or emergency care. It would also ensure that NHS dental checkups for those already eligible, including children, pregnant women, new mothers, and people on low incomes. The package would guarantee that anyone in chemotherapy, undergoing a transplant, or facing physical treatment receives the essential assessments they need beforehand.

I would also like the government to reverse the cuts to public health grants which reform 26% in real time, since 2016, restoring funding for prevention oral health programs, toothbrushing for children in schools and nurseries, and scrap VAT on children's toothbrushes and toothpaste. Madam speaker, I ask the government to act and act now on behalf of my constituents and all role communities, I would ask the communities like West Dorset are not treated as an afterthought but are

16:17

Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)

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Amber Amber Valley Amber Valley has Amber Valley has less Amber Valley has less than Amber Valley has less than one Amber Valley has less than one quarter of NHS dentist. When I speak to residents on the doorstep and in to residents on the doorstep and in surgeries, IKEA the same heartbreaking stories of people in heartbreaking stories of people in pain and unable to access an NHS appointment and some have become so appointment and some have become so desperate that they have resorted to pulling out their own teeth.

During my campaign, I made a promise to the people to fight for better access to people to fight for better access to NHS dental care and that remains my most urgent pledge. We have a handful of dedicated and hard- working dentists who are maintaining the patient lists against difficult odds. The dentists at the Amber Valley dental practice but most do not have the resources to keep the NHS lists open and this puts huge pressure on those that do both with Inglis stretching for over two years.

Simply put, you are extremely lucky to get an appointment in Amber Valley and the dentist told me that the surgery received the lowest payment power NHS treatment when compared to neighbouring constituencies and this made it almost impossible to recruit and retain the quality staff that we need. Then there is the Derbyshire Integrated Care Board and I told them it was not just unfair but created a crisis of inequality for Amber Valley. I'm grateful that they listened and acted and secured £240,000 to address underpayment and a low surgeries in Amber Valley to take on more NHS staff and make it easier for us to get the appointments that we need.

This is a real victory for Amber Valley but nothing worse than my constituents deserve. It's only a small part of the solution and one that will take time to bear fruit and that is why I welcome the commit to 700,000 additional emergency appointments each year and I would urge my constituents to access one of the 16,298 in my constituency. I promised the people I would speak up for them and fight for the dental care that should be there right and so while I'm grateful for the progress so far, I would say to my honourable friend, please, let's go further and faster so no one has to suffer without the dental care that they need.

16:20

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you to the honourable member for introducing the debate. Thornbury is a dental desert and according to a recent newspaper report, not a single dentist is taking on you NHS dentist for the third year in a row and that has left people travelling long distances for care are paying for private treatment and I'm sure the Minister will be as concerned as I am to hear that NHS dental delivery date in September 2044 was the lowest in the south-west, compared to the highest in London, 94.7%.

Not surprisingly, in the south-west, around one in every 460 people had around one in every 460 people had to be taken to A&E in 2023- 24 but is substantially higher than London. The area covered also sees it as the worst of all worlds with lower dental activity alongside higher numbers of A&E visits for dental numbers of A&E visits for dental problems I want to highlight two key they for sure this impact on vulnerable people. One constituents wrote that despite contacting more than a dozen dental practices, they have been told by every surgery that there are no appointments available and they have been offered private appointments if they are willing to pay.

The situation is more distressing as the wife is pregnant and requires urgent dental care which is crucial for her health and that of her child. Pregnant women are entitled to be clear but this is meaningless when no appointments are available. Another constituent wrote to me as a cancer patient and the dental hospital advised them that they would need lifelong follow-up care but that stopped during COVID and soon after, surprise surprise, they could not find another and so they were forced to pay for

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essential treat. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. This seems to be giving way. This seems to be consensus across the House at the country and if there is one thing we can get out of this debate, a can get out of this debate, a timeline as to when the government to commit to fixing it, it would be a benefit. Do you agree?

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a benefit. Do you agree? I thank my honourable friend and I do agree and I think we need to have solutions for people like my have solutions for people like my constituent in the meantime because they've had to pay for treatment and they've had to pay for treatment and have £2000 more of work to be able to eat normally and that is a big to eat normally and that is a big fee when you are reliant on PIP. They feel that they have got to turn.

I will sum up by saying patients at my constituents deserve access to an NHS dentist and need an emergency scheme to guarantee the checkups for those already eligible like children and new mothers and those on low income and we need a dental rescue package to bring dentist back into the NHS from the private sector by fixing the contract and using flexible commissioning to meet the needs of patients in the meantime.

16:23

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Anyone who has had severe toothache know how bad it can be and it feels like there is nothing worse in those moments but imagine watching your child suffer that pain and being told it cannot be helped. This was the reality for my constituent who is a single mum and got in touch with me at breaking point and watched her son suffer with constant distress and trying out and unable to sleep. When she managed to see an emergency dentist, she was told he would need 4-8 teeth extracted but the waiting time was up to two years and Louise was left with no choice but to manage the pain without ibuprofen and that is not healthcare.

It is not a real story. In my constituency, people are driven to desperate measures and turning up to A&E because they cannot get dentist appointments and some have resorted to pulling out their own teeth at home. The DIY dentistry in the 20th century. With the kid under the previous government and this issue has been highlighted of the problems that we have. Just 34% of adults have seen an NHS dentist in the last two years and that is a sharp fall from over 50% a few years ago and well above the national average and only 45% of children were seen in the last year, the weather almost anywhere in England.

People in poverty at the most at risk and in my constituency poverty is a reality for some. The key is one of the most clear signs of how deep this crisis runs in Blackpool one in five one in 53- year-olds and three and 55-year-olds have dental decay, amongst the highest rates in the country. Behind every number as a child missing class because of dental pain. All of this in a tone that faces some of the deepest health inequalities in the country.

I'm pleased the government has ruled out 700,000 more urgent appointments and I know that the government is committed to recruiting new dentists in areas like Blackpool that need it the most and I welcome the commitment to reforming the contract and I urge the government to act now. The BDA points out reform will not work if there is no workforce left by the time it is introduced and the sector needs a clear timetable for negotiations and a firm deadline and a sustainable funding model.

The need to build a system, not of crisis care about prevention and early access. It has never been more urgent and people are not asking for special treatment but asking for any treatment at the simple assurance that they will be looked after.

16:26

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm grateful to the honourable ready for securing this to bed and I was pleased to support it myself and I would like to tell the House about Philip who wrote to me in his own words in desperation and he is a proud Armed Forces veteran and was recovering from recent surgery for lung cancer when he suffered a fall which led to him losing a number of teeth and after his surgery, he was horrified to discover that there were no dentist taking NHS patients nuclear and his previous dentist had moved him from the system.

He did ventures, not just cosmetically but to eat proper meals and is facing a future without this support and this case will ring true for too many people and many in my constituency of north Norfolk and in this instance we got on the case and helped Philip to secure an appointment at the local dentist earlier this week and we look forward to seeing him smile again soon but we cannot do that for the two thirds who are not saying an NHS dentist and we should not have to.

We have to fix a broken system which is letting people down and one exciting prospect on the horizon is the establishment of a dental school at the University of East Anglia and my colleague mentioned this already and they have support from members of all parties and we are excited for Norfolk to start trading its own dentists in coming years. The University of East Anglia needed funding from the government and that was confirmed before May 2 in order for them to appear in the UCAS applications in 2036 but this is not confirmed until the spending review in a few weeks time and so constituents are facing yet another full year of delay.

Nevertheless, please it was confirmed this week that we are clicking on new patients and the council have worked to secure a new lease with the dental design studio and the new practice will have five surgeries to improve accessibility and after years of decline we are finally seeing the green shoots of improvement and I'm pleased to have the opportunity to stand up for everyone who has struggled with the system in the past few years and standing up for people like Philip and the children facing tooth decay and all of those on waiting lists and those forced to on waiting lists and those forced to fork out for private treatment.

Things must improve and they can and I will fight to make sure that they do.

16:29

Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)

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NHS dentistry has been a recurring theme for me before the election and since and this is true for most colleagues and this is why the government has made it a priority but we're starting from a difficult place and I will describe how bad it is for you. Last year I knocked on the door of a man who had lost most of his teeth because he lost most of his teeth because he did not have access to the right care and yesterday a constituent wrote to me and asked me to speak in this debate and she and her husband travel over 80 miles four times a year to see their dentist and they are tired and cannot afford to go private unlike many older people, they need regular and complex care.

We don't have to look far to see the root of the problem, so to speak. Dentist had been telling us for years they NHS contract is not fit for purpose and creates perverse incentives. Dentists have discovered this from treating the patients who need them the most and this is partly because in the late 1990s there was over treating of patients but now the pendulum has swung too far the other way and we have to far the other way and we have to Dental decay is one of the leading causes of hospital admissions in children.

In 2023, over 30,000 children ended up in hospital... I will happily give way.

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The government has an historic commitment to prevention. My constituency of Birmingham Erdington constituency of Birmingham Erdington is one of the youngest constituencies in the country. Does my honourable friend agree with me my honourable friend agree with me that we must continue to build on a supervised brushing and targeted fluoride applications in early years fluoride applications in early years settings, to protect the youngsters?

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settings, to protect the youngsters? I thank my honourable friend for her intervention and she is her intervention and she is absolutely right. Prevention is always better than cure. When I sat on a Lancashire county council health scrutiny committee, we took health scrutiny committee, we took notice of things like unsupervised brushing, help with fluoride, but brushing, help with fluoride, but some of the most cost preventative interventions, and can prevent the horror of 30,000 children going into hospital for preventable tooth removal.

Dental health has become a stark reminder of inequality for without access to preventative care, children and less well-off families are more likely to suffer worsening dental problems. The contract was a major problem, it locked in those perverse incentives. But the situation was then worsened by over a decade of neglect in all areas of public health under the last government. For too many families, they do not go to the dentist until frankly it is too late, and it is very expensive. So, we need those preventative measures that my honourable friend was talking about before, and we need access to NHS dentists.

We know that not being able to go to the dentists mean people turn up to A&E, but they get away with painkillers and antibiotics, it does not fulfil their needs. So, I am pleased that our government is taking this seriously. And please we recognise the scale of the problem, and I am pleased we are taking action, not only on NHS dentistry, but also one that preventative care, because we OH to families in Morecambe and Lunesdale, Madame Deputy Speaker, and across the country, to fix this broken system.

I dental contract that actually works, fair funding for local services, and access to care that is available when people

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need it. NHS dentistry is in crisis, and South Devon is no exception, according to the trust, it is now at according to the trust, it is now at its most perilous point in its 75 year history. Parents are pulling out their children's teeth at home, pensioners travelling aboard for basic dental treatment, hundreds of people in the dental desert of South Devon who have simply given up hope of ever seeing an NHS dentist again. Brasher, 30 million adults across the country couldn't get NHS dental the country couldn't get NHS dental appointment, more than one in four, in my constituency, the situation is in my constituency, the situation is even worse.

Over 50% of adults and 50% of children in Devon have not seen a dentist in the past two years. No local practices are years. No local practices are accepting new NHS patients on waiting times can stretch into years. The crisis is driven by an underfunded and outdated system. underfunded and outdated system. Pushing professionals out. In England, NHS dentistry receives just England, NHS dentistry receives just £38 ahead, in Scotland, I am told it is nearly double that. Each year, hundreds of millions of pounds of dental funding goes unspent, not because it is not needed but because dental practices cannot recruit or train staff under the current contract.

The rigid contract system is also preventing dentists coming up with innovative ideas, like a proposal for a no-frills low cost dental service in Dartmouth, in my constituency, which got nowhere because of NHS red tape. I ask the Minister, when will we hear about a reformed dental contract? The dental defence Union has highlighted other issues, which are contributed to the collapse. One major concern is falling morale among dental professionals. In 2022 survey of nearly 500 dental staff, 86% reported experiencing increased

16:35

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Two years, a clear signal the working conditions themselves are working conditions themselves are driving people out of the profession. Dentists are also losing money to provide for NHS care, for every denture they fit, their out- every denture they fit, their out- of-pocket by over £40. No wonder 60% of NHS dentists say they plan to of NHS dentists say they plan to leave. We need urgent action. That is why the Liberal Democrats are calling for real reform. We are campaigning to end dental deserts and guarantee access to an NHS dentist for everyone who needs urgent or emergency care.

Our dental rescue package would bring dentists rescue package would bring dentists back to NHS and use flexible commissioning to meet local needs. We also want an emergency scheme to ensure free NHS checkups for those ensure free NHS checkups for those already eligible, like children, new mothers, pregnant women and people on low incomes. Guaranteed access to dental care for anyone needing treatment before chemotherapy. The longer this goes on, the worse it gets. South Devon needs proper dental care, not more delays. Yes, preventative dental care costs money.

But prevention is always

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better and cheaper than a cure. I thank my honourable friend,

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I thank my honourable friend, Lenovo Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes for securing this important debate. Can I start by thanking the dentists Can I start by thanking the dentists hygienist, dental nurses and staff in my constituency of Gloucester who

16:36

Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)

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in my constituency of Gloucester who do so much to look after my constituents, but the reality is the dentists system we inherited from the previous government is broken. And we need to fix it. It comes up on the doorstep time and time again when I am looking on doors in Gloucester, that patients cannot get dentist appointments they need. That we have people pulling their own teeth out at home, that we have children with teeth rotting in their mouths. We need more NHS dentists in Gloucester and this week I have launched a campaign to get a new dental practice in Gloucester city to deliver my constituents.

I wrote to my local ICB earlier this week. And I think we should be seeing that as soon as we possibly can. So, I would welcome a meeting with the well relevant minister to discuss that campaign and how I can deliver that dental practice for my constituents. I do recognise that the ICB and his government have made fantastic progress on urgent dental care, in Gloucestershire, we have got another 11,000 urgent dental appointments in my constituency a wider area and that is already delivering for my constituents who are most in need, but what we really need is us regular checkups and appointments so we can get people seeing more regularly.

I will conform to the dental contract and the consultation with local dentists and I do encourage all of the dentists and dental practices in my constituency to get involved with that, so we can deliver a better dentistry contract and a better dental system than the one left behind a year ago by the Conservative party. Thank you.

16:37

Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, and thanks to the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes for bringing this important debate. In my constituency, and across Scotland, families are desperately struggling to access NHS dental treatment. Public health Scotland figures show that while 87% of children are registered, only about 66 have actually been seen by an NHS dentist in the past two years. And in our most deprived areas, backdrops, to only one in two children. This, despite the SNP claiming that 95% of children are registered with an NHS dentist.

When routine care disappears, the consequences of land in hospitals. Before the pandemic, Scotland was admitting about 8,000 children a year for dental extractions under general anaesthetic. The single biggest cause of planned childhood admissions to hospitals. Despite clear and dire consequences of failing to address dental health and health inequalities in general, the governments in both Holyrood and Westminster appear to be looking the other way. The recent survey from the British dental Association highlighted the financial strain faced by dentists, with 45% of practices saying they were struggling to stay financially viable, and over half saying that the recent budget had accelerated their move to the private sector.

It is with this in mind that we must ask why the government chose to follow through on its national insurance rise for primary care providers, like dentists. It appears that while in their manifesto they support local health providers, the reality of those providing care is quite different. I would therefore like to join my Liberal Democrat colleagues in calling for the government to reconsider its stance on national insurance. Failing to return national insurance contributions to their former levels will inevitably result in fewer NHS dental appointments, fewer NHS dental providers, and more children on operating tables.

16:39

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Is there a better metaphor for the state of this country than the the state of this country than the state of dentistry? 14 years of neglect left us with a decayed system of the NHS provision, with those able to pay, only those protected. And I see it myself with wards full of children with abscesses at the weekend dental abscesses. There is dental provision that simply doesn't exist. In my own constituency, the number of urgent appointments has in fact increased by 35%, with practices providing urgent dental care services, seven days a week.

And into the evenings, and there are more coming soon. So, the government is making a serious attempt to deal with this decades of decay and drift. But we must go further, we do not have enough dentists, we do not have enough dental service providers. So, let's sort out the dental contract, as we have been hearing before, the honourable member for self culture, no longer in his seat, is quite right that the NHS dentists are in fact heroes. Absolutely.

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Very grateful forgiving way. The point has been made repeatedly that you can earn a lot more money in private practice then you can NHS private practice then you can NHS dentistry. That is unlikely to change no matter what the negotiation is. Would he agree with me the last government's review into requiring the £300,000 roughly cost of training a dentist should require of training a dentist should require a number of years working for the NHS afterwards?

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NHS afterwards? I thank my honourable member for his intervention, that is certainly a suggestion that said be a suggestion that said be investigated. -- Should be investigated. We must increase the number of dentists. We only have 24 dentists for every 100,000 people in the East of England. We need to increase the number of training increase the number of training providers and training places. But to open a dental school, it will take ages to bring in new dentists. One suggestion is a dental One suggestion is a dental accreditation system.

Members may not know that there are only six opportunities to take the accreditation examine sheer, but there are 6,000 people planning to take this exam. That will take them 10 years. We must get the General dental Council to increase the number of exam opportunities. So, we have begun addressing this political emergency, but we must go further forwards, with a clear and fair offer, focusing on what the Minister described as a triangle patients practitioners and the public purse. Providing a service that ensures we give excellent care for all, including prevention.

Especially for the most vulnerable. And, in a way, we can pay for it. NHS dentistry can be saved. Let's have a sign on the door. Urgent NHS dental appointments available here. Now, wouldn't that be great?

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We come to the Liberal Democrat frontbenchers. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, and I thank the honourable member for Grimsby for securing this debate today, before I was elected, I drove

16:43

Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)

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today, before I was elected, I drove around Winchester, and VP for new Forest, treating horses as a veterinary surgeon. Add a key regulatory part of that role was regular dental treatment. Horses do not like going to the dentist any more than humans do. Every six months or at least every year, when they get also is in their mouth, they can get infected tooth roots, and when you have to remove a tooth that has a route of 3 inches long, and especially on a hot day like today, you workable sweat and take a long time for it is really painful for the horse.

We use painkillers, we use nerve blocks. But it is painful for the horse, it is often avoidable, if I had had their regular dental treatment, and it costs the owner of a lot more money. And it is exactly the same with human medicine as well. With the cross-party agreement on disputes and prevention is better than cure. We are failing even the most basic level of public health. I will not go through all the stats honourable member several repeated about the numbers of children needing general anaesthetics for dental care.

I will

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happily do that. I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way for but he welcomed the government partnership with Colgate on toothbrushing in schools Colgate on toothbrushing in schools so we can tackle prevention with children and make sure they are not going into hospital with tooth decay

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going into hospital with tooth decay because they are brushing their teeth and learning how to do so properly? I absolutely welcome back, I think it is a fantastic initiative. think it is a fantastic initiative. I visited two practices, dental practices in Winchester, Madame Deputy Speaker, and both told me Deputy Speaker, and both told me exactly the same thing. They wanted exactly the same thing. They wanted a more NHS work. They want to be there for the communities. But because of the current NHS dental contract, they simply cannot make it financially viable.

They are financially viable. They are effectively subsidising the NHS patients with income from private patients with income from private work. And the British Dental Association estimates that private dentistry in England cross subsidises the NHS care to the tune of £332 million a year, which is due to rise to £425 million if NHS practices are not offered any help, with the tens of thousands of additional staff cost increasing national insurance. NHS work they do perform, they do not have time to do the education they want to do.

People want to do proactive holistic healthcare but they are having to get people through in such a quick turnaround. Let me say this clearly, dentists are not the problem, they are doing their best within a complex that is outdated and damaging. I also want to speak to something that is often overlooked in this conversation. And that is oral health is not just about tea. -- About teeth. My dental colleagues, we routinely identify serious conditions, like oral cancers, carcinomas, during routine dental checks.

These cancers are often aggressive, if spotted early, they can be treated. And we also know that infections in the mouth can lead to things like endocarditis, this is not a trivial condition. There is good evidence that periodontitis can contribute to the onset of dementia. So, how many cancers are women think? Harmony heart problems are we not Dror how many heart problems are we avoiding -- Not avoiding by not having routine dental checks? I know we are pushed for time, but in summary, the Liberal Democrats, we are going to continue to fight tooth and nail for an NHS that includes dentistry.

I did manage to avoid making any jokes about equine identity and straight from the horses mouth, members will be glad to hear. But we don't want NHS dentistry to be an afterthought, it has to be a core part of a truly universal holistic health service because everyone deserves access to routine dental care, many members have said they live in areas that are dental visits, where NHS dentists are more rare than hen's dentists are more rare than hen's It is clear that we have cross-party consensus let's get this reformed and let's make this the last Parliament that anyone has to extract their own teeth.

16:47

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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I would like to congratulate the honourable ready for securing the debate today. Dentistry is important and dentists deal with your teeth, mouth, gums, identify diseases, and cancer. I visited the Dental Design Studio in Sleaford to celebrate their anniversary and I also got to help judge a cake competition. Access to NHS dentistry has been a problem for a long time and when I move house in 2001, there was no NHS dentist available and I travel two hours to meet with a dentist who then retired and then there was no dentist at all.

We are not short of dentists because the Conservative government increased the number of new dentists and there were more than 2010. I see Minister For Care has said the issue is not the number of dentists but the amount doing NHS work. One in 15 youngsters are turned away and, as such, go overseas to train or do something else. This is in areas like Norwich and also Lincoln. The main problem identified is the 2006 contract and there were several issues and one was to do with practices and historical data and then there was a disincentive to treating patients and also all costs were not covered.

There was the ironing out of some bizarre contract terms and a new higher floor for a minimum UDA two. How are the government getting on with things? Can we get an update? We do not yet know what reform will look like or the timescale and so there is the vague assertion that some reform is imminent. I will not give way because there is not much time but I met with a colleague recently who spoke about the National Insurance rise and there has been an increase in staff costs.

Will the Minister ask the Chancellor to exempt dentists from the National Insurance contribution increase? There has been discussion about compelling dentist to work in the NHS by compelling new dentists who have recently been trained or incentivising student loan repayments. As is being considered? There are many overseas-trained dentists and the Overseas Administration Exam has 2000 people on the waiting list and people can work in the private sector but not the NHS. It does not seem coherent. Does the government have confidence in the exam or not? It seems illogical and is a clear disincentive to best practice.

What discussions have been had about the issue? The member has repeatedly raised the issue of Ukrainian dentists. Why not assess the Ukrainian dentists and allow them to work because it would be better for them and for us. Dentists are part of a team of hygienist, nurses, technicians, therapists. What is the government doing to help them to provide great care and what are they doing to support rural areas since the mobile dental vans were cancelled because is it doing to deal with the appointments it has not delivered? I will not give way.

There is very little time. I would say that we can all see that the NHS is not fit for purpose with dentistry anti-government must get a grip of this and deal with it soon.

16:51

Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)

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16:57

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I'm grateful for the number of people who participated in the debate and I apologise to those who were not able to get in and for the shortened time people had to contribute and I thank the Minister for a comprehensive response and it is clear we have got a long way to go before we get the kind of services that people across the whole country in each constituency whole country in each constituency

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That all of the suggestions and comments will be taken on board. Thank you very much. The question is as on the order

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The question is as on the order paper. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye.". The ayes have it. The say, "Aye.". The ayes have it. The

16:58

Ministerial statement: Diego Garcia Military Base

We now come to the statement.

16:58

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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With permission, I wish to make a statement on the Diego Garcia military base. For more than 50 years, the joint military base has been a launch pad to defeat terrorists and protect threats to the nation and to protect our economic security and it keeps Britain secure at home and strong. This afternoon, the Prime Minister signed a treaty with the Prime Minister of Mauritius which guarantees the fuel and continued UK control of Diego Garcia for the next 99 years and beyond.

I pay tribute to the negotiators and the teams who supported them and to the officials who have worked for 2.5 years to help bridge the agreement this afternoon. The Foreign Secretary has provided the fuel treaty text and the formal exchange of letters with the Foreign Minister from Mauritius to confirm the agreement and financial arrangements between our countries. The bill will be introduced soon. There has been a great deal of misinformation about this treaty and much of it has been fuelled by the Conservative Party.

fuelled by the Conservative Party. The simple truth is that the national security rests on securing a deal that protects operational sovereignty of this vital military installation. By signing the treaty on our terms, the Prime Minister has ensured that the UK retains full control of Diego Garcia throughout the next century and beyond. It is a deal struck in the national interest and a deal that makes generations to come safer and more secure. The importance of Diego Garcia cannot be overstated and some of the operations are in the public domain and most are not.

But all of the work conducted from Diego Garcia plays a crucial role in protecting the nation, the armed forces, and Diego Garcia is unique, we do things there that we simply could not do anywhere else. It's airfield allows strike operations, rapid deployment to the Middle East, East Africa, South Asia. Its deepwater port supports missions from nuclear powered submarines to our career strike. It hosts surveillance stations that prevent terrorist attacks, and provides global intelligence capabilities, and it projects UK US military power into the indaba.

To reinforce regional stability and security. Mr Speaker, America is our closest security ally and continued use of the space is fundamental to maintaining the special strength of that special strength of that special strength of that Is the most significant contributed to the UK US partnership that has kept us safe for nearly 18 years. As I have said, this is a joint military base and almost every operation conducted from it is done in partnership with the US. This is why the treaty has the full fronted support of the US.

Secretary of State has said this afternoon, " This agreement secures the long-term stable and effective operation of the joint US UK military facility at the joint US UK military facility at Diego Garcia which is critical to regional and global security." President Trump himself has described this is very long-term and very strong. Mr Speaker, Diego Garcia also strengthens Britain's economic security. Over one third of the worlds bulk cargo traffic, two thirds of global oil shipments, are transported through the Indian Ocean.

Our constant presence in these waters serves to safeguard trade routes, keeping the price of food and energy for Britain are food and energy for Britain are down. It is also the location of comprehensive monetary equipment, network that watches every moment of every day for evidence of nuclear testing, to hold nuclear and would- be nuclear powers to account. Diego Garcia is one of just four locations in the world to operate ground station and 10 I, for the global positioning system, which everyone from astronauts to motorists, to our military, rely on it to navigate.

Aggressively, the loss of Diego Garcia military base would now be unthinkable. And yet, without action, without this deal, within weeks, we could face losing legal rulings, and with just a few years, the base would come inoperable. Some have suggested simply ignoring international legal decisions, but this is not just about international law. This is about the direct impact of law on our ability to control and operate this base. The rulings against would mean that we could not prevent hostile nations setting up installations around Diego Garcia, or the outer islands, or carrying out joint exercises near the base.

No deal means we could not guarantee the safe birth of our subs, patrol the waters around the base, control the airspace directly above or protect the integrity of the communication systems. Such developments would deeply damage the security interests of the UK and our allies. It would be a dereliction of the first duty of government. Agreeing this treaty now, our terms, means the UK retains full control over Diego Garcia, now and for the next century. We have laid before the House the full treaty and the associated costings.

The Conservative frontbench will see how we have to find the terms of the deal they were doing. So, it does now guarantee the UK's national interest and national security. At a cost of less than 0.2% of the annual defence budget, we have secured unrestricted access to and use of unrestricted access to and use of the base. As well as control over movement of all persons and goods on the base, and control of all communication and electronic systems.

Nothing can be built within 24 nautical mile buffer zone without our say so, and we have secured an effective veto on all development in the Chagos Archipelago. And a strict ban will be imposed on foreign security forces operating on the outer islands. All provisions that outer islands. All provisions that were not there in the draft agreement that had been negotiated by the party opposite, before the election. Mr Speaker, I will just sit of the parties opposite, anyone who would abandon this deal would abandon the base.

They would weaken the security of the British people. And they would weaken the strength of the British Armed Forces. By scything this deal, the British flag will fly over the Diego Garcia base, well into the next century. By signing this deal, the relationship with our closest security ally will be strengthened, by signing this deal, our capacity to deter our adversaries and defend UK interests is secured for generations to come and as the world becomes more dangerous, Diego Garcia becomes more important.

And this government will never compromise on national security. With this deal, we have made Britain more secure at home and stronger abroad.

17:07

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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Shadow Secretary of State. rightful to the Secretary of State for his statement. But before I go into detail, there are two important points I wish to place on record. First, it is beneath contempt for the Prime Minister, in his press conference, to state that those who oppose this deal are on other side oppose this deal are on other side of Russia and China. I am intensely proud of the role this party has played in supporting Ukraine, I have one less badge every day, Mr Speaker.

Many of my colleagues have been sanctioned by Russia and China and passionately believe that we must stand up to them. Indeed, that is one of the reasons we oppose this deal. Let's not forget, only last week, Mauritius agreed to deepen maritime cooperation with Russia and China said this week that it wanted to deepen its strategic partnership with Mauritius and the country was less placed with strategic advantages. This is a democracy. If we choose to take a different view on this issue and vote against the deal, that does not make us pro- Russian or pro-Chinese.

Voting against this deal does not make us traitors to this country, it makes us patriots. Secondly, the Secretary of State, and his defence ministers, have said 26 times on the floor of this House that the urgently needed strategic defence review would be delivered by the spring. But he has broken that promise. Here we are, literally the last sitting moment of the spring this year, and instead of the SDR, he has come to the House to announce a total abject surrender of our territory.

And a fundamental betrayal of the UK's national interest. Mr Speaker, the government are not surrendering British sovereign territory because of military defeat. Nor because of a binding legal verdict. But wilfully, due to a total failure to take a stand and fight for Britain's interests on the world stage. A complete and utter negotiating failure. Yes, it is true that we held talks with the Mauritians in government. But we never signed a deal. Why? Because we fundamentally oppose the idea of spending billions on attacks to leaseback land that we commit Leona freehold.

And it is billions. Can the Secretary of State confirm this deal will cost £1 billion over the next five years. When the Prime Minister gave a statement to this House on defence spending recently he used the cash figure to state how much spending would rise. Can the Secretary of State confirm that on the same basis, this deal will cost UK taxpayers over £10 billion. Canada Secretary of State particularly confirm definitively how much of that cost will come from the MoD budget? Mr Speaker on military operations, you will be interested, the treaty confirms, " That we must expeditiously inform Mauritius of any armed attack on 1/3 state directly emanating on the base of the Diego Garcia." Can he confirm that that means we would need to tell Mauritius if the base were to be used to launch strikes against Iran or their proxies, what guarantees he has received that Mauritius would not tell potential adversaries? As we all know, the key issue is that the government fears a issue is that the government fears a binding legal judgement.

They are following the legal advice to act definitively to our detriment, entirely on the basis of hypothetical risk. That has not yet hypothetical risk. That has not yet materialised and which we could challenge. And this is part of a pattern, Mr Speaker. On Monday, with the EU defence pact, the Secretary of State admitted he has only secured potential participation in the rearmament fund. But despite no guarantee of hard cash for defence, the government have already given our sovereign fishing grounds for over a decade.

Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland refused to explain why this government failed to appeal the legal decision, which now threatens our veterans with a new era of law fair, for the crime of serving this nation and keeping us safe all those years ago. And today, with Chagos, once again, they have prior prioritised heeding the most pessimistic advice even though we expose the fact that the fear of binding that was overblown. As said earlier, we are all getting real tired of this, the courts have settled it, and of argument.

It is not so much a case of no surrender, as you surrender every single time. Always listening to the lawyers instead of our national interests, even if that means surrendering our veterans, our vision grounds, and surrendering the Chagos Islands. May I suggest they change the lyrics of their Labour Party song because we all know they will keep the white flag flying here for flag flying here for

17:12

Mr Speaker

Sorry, I don't want to interrupt, you are not being helpful to your cause, it is the worst day to be thrown out, so I want to hear no thrown out, so I want to hear no more from you, it is continuous. Secretary of State.

17:12

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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Expecting to hear the SDR, given their multiple promises. Finally, Mr Speaker, the Chagossian community have been shamefully sidelined by this government, from start to finish. I only kick boxing engagement by junior managers. -- Ministers. Is it true it offers no protection for Chagossians altogether. When Labour negotiates, The government should not be surrendering strategically vital sovereign territory, especially when we face such threats, and they certainly shouldn't be paying billions for the privilege. We would abandon this deal, we would never abandon the Chagos Islands, this is a bad deal for Britain and would do a bad deal for Britain and would do everything possible to oppose it.

everything possible to oppose it.

17:13

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker,... The Prime Minister was making a simple point. He was making a simple point, that if the base goes, the country that benefits, the countries that want to see the base go and the deal fail, are China, Russia, and Iran. And quite simply, he was asking who's side of the argument are you on? Frankly, if you do not back the deal, you do not back the base.

17:14

Mr Speaker

I will decide what is shameful and what is not. I'm going to say now once and for all, you have been pushing quite a while, emotions are running high, but I do not want a continuous barracking of that level of noise coming from you, you should be setting a very good example of the shadow Secretary of State, keeping calm, being effective, it keeping calm, being effective, it secretary of state.,

17:14

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker quest to become if you do not back the deal, you do not back the base. There is no viable alternative option that this deal. The senior military figure that was part of the treaty signing this afternoon, General Jim confirmed that publicly. The honourable gentleman knows this, he was a defence minister until the last election. He knows that was the advice that he and his previous government were given. Mr Speaker, even a spokesperson for his leader admitted in February that a deal was needed.

Reported, a spokesperson for Kemi Badenoch insisted, she understands negotiations over the islands and needed, due to the national legal position. That is the job that we have done. Look, they conceded the principle, the negotiator was necessary, later conceded the principle that a deal was required to safeguard the long- term protection and control of this base. They conducted 11 rounds of negotiation before the last election. They failed, it talks about part of the packet, they failed to deliver a trade deal with India, we did it.

They failed to deliver a trade deal with the US, we did it, they failed to safeguard Diego Garcia and we have done it. We picked up those negotiations, we strengthen the defence predictions for the UK and we did the deal today. Mr Speaker, he asked me about the money, quite simply, once again, he wasn't just a defence minister, he was a Treasury minister before the last election, the Exchequer, in fact, when negotiations first kicked off. He notes that the government actuary tells us that the full accounting cost of this deal, over the full 99 years, is £3.4 billion.

That's the figure reported before the House today. He will know that there is a long established method used in our government, his government and the previous government, for accounting for long-term projects. Projects like this base, like the nuclear commissioning program. Like big infrastructure projects. Like pensions liabilities as well. The fact for me, as Defence Secretary, is the cost of this deal is less than 0.2% of the annual defence than 0.2% of the annual defence budget.

This is an essential deal for our national security. And is one of that will ensure that Britain is better equipped to face down the rising threats we face. And our Armed Forces are stronger, our Armed Forces are safer, because of this deal done today. Mr Speaker, he asks me about the Chagos Islands. -- The Chagossians. I will just say to him, we have been concerned, since we related just 12 months ago, to restore good communication, better relations, with a wide range of Chagossians groups.

My honourable friend, the Foreign Minister, has met them regularly. My right honourable friend and the Foreign Minister met them this morning. The negotiations, however, were between the Mauritian government and the UK government. Just like with him. But we have worked in the to ensure -- In this deal to ensure the agreement does reflect the importance of the Chagossians attached to the islands. So we will factor in the trust fund for Mauritius to support the Chagossians community. Finally, can I conclude where I started.

And just say to the honourable gentleman, we have worked together on a cross- party basis on Ukraine, we have offered him and his leader security briefings on any of the big issues we face. To say to him the steels in the national security interests, it is why, in opposition, we backed his government when it set out to try and negotiate that deal, just as we back in opposition his government when he led the UK support for Ukraine. And I hope when he looks at the treaty, when he considers there was no alternative, when he recognises how this is a tougher deal, better for our base, better for our forces, better to protect our British people of this country, I hope he will back it.

I hope he will back it.

17:19

Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, in the 60s and 70s, Labour and Conservative governments remove that you go see in people from the islands in the interest of national-security. In response to Britain's questions the Foreign Office is concerned confirmed many certainties would be required for to go seems to return to the islands Can I ask what they should tell people from the Chagos Islands when once again they are right to self- determination is being ignored? On what basis do the members feel any certainty that they will retain the position in the event national position in the event national

17:21

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I have known my honourable friend I have known my honourable friend for a long time and he has been allowed and strong voice for Chagossian is in this country and a copy recognises that this has been in negotiation with the government in negotiation with the government of Mauritius and I hope he will of Mauritius and I hope he will respect the fact that my honourable respect the fact that my honourable friend from the Foreign Office has tried to set a new tone in relationships and communication with a range of groups during this and I hope you will also recognise that hope you will also recognise that within that range of groups, a range within that range of groups, a range of use, some of them support this deal and can see the need for it and deal and can see the need for it and I trust that he will be strong in his advocacy for the use of the trust fund and the programs that it will help put in place to help these people.

17:21

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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The Liberal Democrat support the UK complying with international law but the process for agreeing the deal has been more than a little bit bumpy and conservatives have feigned anger, bordering on hysteria at times, despite it being the Foreign Secretary who settled the intention, the government has failed to find any progress. We do not need a running commentary but we have to know that public money is being used wisely. It was clear the government is prepared to give Donald Trump the ultimate veto.

As the deal has been reached, kindly Minister describe and has the Minister responded to ensure that the issues are addressed? In attempting to humiliate Cyril Ramaphosa the South African President yesterday, he has confirmed himself as unreliable and he has confirmed the deal on a shared asset and how confident is he that Diego Garcia will not be used to advance foreign policy objectives contrary to our principles and interests? Hard-working parties are negotiating sums to Mauritius at a time when there are issues.

Will the Minister put the proposed schedule of payments with relation to the deal on the record? The government has previously confirmed that the treaty must come before the House for scrutiny, especially given the importance to national security and implications for the Exchequer. I hope it sets a precedent that can be applied to trade deals in future, for example. Can the Minister confirmed when there will be the opportunity to scrutinise the deal as well as the chance to vote?

17:23

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The answer to his question is that from this point this House has the full opportunity to scrutinise the deal and that is why it was done in this House together with the financial arrangements. He says that negotiators had been doing the negotiations without running commentary and he respect the fact that in any negotiations has to be a private space for discussions to take place. When the treaty is ready, and comes before the House, the financial information will be decided and that has happened today and the proper scrutiny begins today when the bill is published and then we will be able to add that.

On the question of the Chagossian is, we can fund the £40 million so that they can set up a new trust fund for the community and on the US, this is a treaty that has been negotiated and has been signed between our Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of Mauritius and it secures a vital intelligence base for Britain and as I said in my statement, almost everything that we do is joined with the US and so of course we have kept them informed and of course we have consulted them but at no point have they had a veto.

It is a word deal and I bring it to the House because it is in the best national interests and security interests, too.

17:25

Mr Speaker

Shaking your head and making comments. I do not need the backchat. That has been going on for a while.

17:25

Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)

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The party opposite started negotiations on handing over the Chagos Islands because they understood the national security implications of not doing the deal and now with our closest security partners, the Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders welcoming the deal, why are they doing this with our

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national security? I agree with my honourable friend

17:25

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I agree with my honourable friend and he makes a powerful point in a and he makes a powerful point in a very judicious way and I will say that he could learn a bit from my honourable friend.

17:26

Rt Hon Sir James Cleverly MP (Braintree, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister, in his extensive press conference prior to the Secretary of State for defence coming to the House and then the Secretary of State for defence has said the deal is the only way of protecting the military operations on Diego Garcia. When I was Foreign Secretary, I did not see anything which made me agree that this is the only way of protecting the military operations on the base and he suggested in his speech to the House that the judgement to come within weeks and so from which binding authority to see fewer that you can because we know it is not the ICJ saw coup which he believed would protect us?

17:27

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The right honourable gentleman was a formidable and very senior figure in the previous government and was in the post of Foreign Secretary during the period when there were negotiations and by entering into negotiations, has government accepted and conceded the principle that a negotiated deal was the way to secure the full operational sovereignty of this base for the long term and I would say that he may not have been satisfied with the deal on the table but when we picked up the negotiations, there was no agreement on an effective veto across the archipelago, which we have now, no buffer zone accepted, of which there is no, and no agreement in the text, not just for 99 years but the extra payment for the option that regard and there was not an agreement for Mauritius to take responsibility for any to take responsibility for any migrants and there is no and so I hope he looks at the new text and that he will back it when it comes before the House.

17:28

Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)

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I rise to welcome this agreement which safeguards a vital national security asset and cements the role of the UK at the heart of the global defence cooperation. The treaty is about protecting the ability of Britain to fend for itself and defend its allies. It is not just a piece of land but the backbone of joint operations with the US and the linchpin of UK ability to protect power and deter threats and ensure security in an increasingly unstable world and the US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the all support the deal.

They understand what it represents which is unmatched strategic certainty. Will the Minister give us more information around how we will protect it around the island?

17:29

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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My honourable friend is right. Our close allies take a close interest and can see the treaty is the best way of securing this for the UK and the US and it will be a vital place to help project military power and reinforce regional security and my honourable friend will see the buffer zone, an exclusion zone, which allows us to control the seas and the air and we will be able to do that increasingly without the deal and she will see that any effective veto across the archipelago to ranges of at least 100 nautical miles and she will see the value of the deal which guarantees full operational sovereignty and prevents any undermining of our ability to use the electromagnetic spectrum which is crucial to the unique capabilities that this case and its operations offered to the country and the US.

17:30

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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When a former Foreign Secretary asks a sitting Defence Secretary for a direct answer as to which court would be able to make a painting judgement against us on the matter, he is entitled to a direct answer and so will the Secretary of State now give that answer? now give that answer?

17:30

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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There is a range of international legal challenges of villas against The most potentially serious is the tribunal on the international tribunal on the international Convention on the Law of the Sea.

17:31

Rt Hon Anneliese Dodds MP (Oxford East, Labour )

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. My right honourable friend has just set out how this deal, which is essential for a national-security will cost less than 1/4 of one % of our national defence budget, can he also confirm that this deal costs far less than other basic deals, like Francis with Djibouti, offering fastly superior strategic scale and value.

17:31

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I can indeed, Mr Speaker. My right honourable friend is right. For me as a defence minister, this deal will cost less than 0.2% of the defence budget. It compares very favourably with the 85 million the French paid for their Djibouti base. Which by the way, is right next to a Chinese base. Which, by the way, unlike Diego Garcia which is 15 times bigger than the French base in Djibouti, also has this exclusion zone around it, which helps protect our operations and protect the intelligence services we have got there.

So, my right honourable friend is right, this is a good investment for the future of national-security of this country.

17:32

Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning, I was at the High Court to listen to the judgement and I was with a very large group of Chagossians who told me they feel betrayed. I also feel the United Kingdom is acting exactly the same high-handed colonial like manner that led to their dislocation and displacement from the islands in the 1960s. When this deal comes back to this House for us to vote, can the frontbench assure us all that we are not going to be asked to vote for a new round of colonial practice? At a disadvantage to Chagossians.

17:33

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Of course not. Look, we deeply regret the way the Chagossians were removed from the islands. We have expressed that sentiment as a new government since July. We have made provisions in this treaty to support the Chagossian communities. But he will recognise there is such a wide range of views within the Chagossian communities and groups. Some of them see the value of this deal, some of them support this deal. The That the legal challenge for the court today, in a sense, demonstrates some of the legal difficulties that would continue to bedevil the operation of this place without the deal that a minister

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assigned today. I commend my honourable friend

17:34

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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for explaining in as much detail as he is able to the floor of the House the detail of why he believes this is a necessary act, and I trust my right honourable friend to have at heart the security of the nation as a top priority. However, there are elements of this that cannot be talked about, even at the point where this House may vote on the treaty. And there was only one member who has access to all of government spending, that is the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the honourable member for the Cotswolds.

Does my right honourable friend agree that there are areas which do need deeper scrutiny and support, the plans we are having discussion about, about having a sensitive scrutiny committee that can examine issues, including this one.

17:35

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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My right honourable friend knows that I have had discussion with her and the right honourable gentleman for the Cotswolds about this question of the capability of the House of Commons to be able to scrutinise and hold to account the government of whatever party, in areas of necessarily high secret and confidential activity. She knows that I have a different view about how to deal with that challenge. But dealing with that challenge, we must.

17:35

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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I am very grateful, Mr Speaker, thank you. The Minister has cited UNCLOS, under pressure, as the reason for this expensive cave in. I'm familiar with UNCLOS, although I am a layman and so was the Minister for could he explain in lay terms which parts of UNCLOS are responsible for what has happened? Because it isn't clear to me and it won't be clear to my constituents and to his who will be paying the bill for this.

17:36

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, the judgement of any international tribunal or court do international tribunal or court do not necessarily just apply to the UK. They are taken by other agencies, other organisations, other nations for and as my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister, spelt out this afternoon, if there is uncertainty, against the UK, about the sovereignty of Diego Garcia, then our ability to protect, in particular, and most immediately, the electromagnetic spectrum which our senses, radars, communications, intelligence functions depend is compromised.

That is the security assessment. That is the military view. That is why we have taken the step and recognise that the best and only way of safeguarding the operational sovereignty, the total control and protection of the Diego Garcia island base for the future is the deal we have struck this afternoon.

17:37

Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am alarmed by the passion for the Chagos Islands by the members opposite, having come on a number of occasions, if you would let me finish, a number of occasions, intervened and asked members opposite to name the Chagos Islands, when they have been unable to tell me that it was Diego Garcia, the Solomon Islands, et cetera, similarly. I do not share your passion, sorry for sub simile, the Leader of the Opposition first tweeted about the Chagos Islands in October 2024.

That was five years after the ICJ ruling, and two years after negotiations started. So, does my honourable friend agree with me that perhaps this newfound passion for the Chagos Islands owes more to political opportunism than it does to any deeply held conviction opposite? opposite?

17:38

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, I do indeed and I have to say, I am relieved my honourable friend hasn't asked me to name all 50+ islands in the archipelago this afternoon. archipelago this afternoon.

17:38

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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Demolitions have never, ever owns the Chagos Islands. -- The Mauritians. When they gained independence from the United Kingdom in the 1960s, the UK pay them millions of pounds to seed any future -- Seed any future claims over the sovereignty of the Chagos Islands. The Defence Secretary has confirmed the strategic importance of the Chagos Islands. We all agree on that, the truth is this is the worst ever deal in history by this country. We are paying over a hundred years with inflation over £40 billion to give away a strategically important security asset as this truth is, Mr Speaker, I am confirming that when Reform win

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the next general election, we will rip up this deal, tear it up and stop all future payments, it's a disgrace. Mr Speaker, that is total

17:39

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, that is total rubbish. Not just his figures but rubbish. Not just his figures but also his assertion. No, our closest ally, taking the close look at the deal, that we have negotiated, sees this as the way to secure the joint operations, the control of the -- This base, we can jointly guarantee through the steel into the next century and beyond. In terms of the cost, look, we have gone over the course, it is less than .2% of the defence budget.

For this, we get the security of being able to continue operating, and intelligence and defence space, doing activities and operations, that we simply couldn't do anywhere else. This is a good investment for Britain, Britain a safer today, because of the deal we have struck.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The party

17:40

Louise Jones MP (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

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opposite had a terrible record on defence with abject failure after abject failure, and I think we have seen from this afternoon that they haven't learned from those lessons. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that, in backing the steel with support both from the US, from NATO, from Five Eyes, some of our biggest allies in the region, and Australia, this is a party that is serious about national security and will put national interests first and unlike the parties opposite will not make meaningless suggestions to put their own party first.

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I will indeed, Mr Speaker. Look,

17:41

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I will indeed, Mr Speaker. Look, this is a base that has saved British lives for over 50 years. It has saved the lives of people at has saved the lives of people at home, in this country, and has been at the launchpad against which we have defeated terrorist attacks. It has been the launchpad also for protecting and saving the lives of forces when they have been deployed to war zones around the world. This is a deal that we have signed today, that means we can continue to exercise the full control necessary, to continue to do this, the next century to come.

17:41

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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Can I come in all candour, suggested the -- Suggest to the government that having now introduced to this new element, the international convention on the law of the sea, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, and its associated tribunal, I presume, the International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea, has the decisive factor that might have created a binding ruling, that it really is incumbent on the government to set out in the statement exactly how this would have affected the electromagnetic spectrum or the ability to use...

Foreign Secretary might just calm down for a minute. I just want a proper explanation. I make this forecast, to quit Personal Independence Payment's, to cut with a few allowances, to pay for something that was already British sovereign territory, billions of pounds, how was he going to explain that on the doorstep to all the voters? And I promise you, they will never hear the end of it.

17:42

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The right honourable gentleman might just like to remember and make the comparison that the total cost, over 99 years, of the deal we have struck to protect the base and the British control over it is a less than the value of the PPE that was unusable and that was burnt because the government had bought it in the

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first year of the COVID pandemic. The US supports this deal, NATO

17:43

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

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The US supports this deal, NATO supports this deal, India supports this deal. So, does the Minister this deal. So, does the Minister share my surprise that members opposite seems so intent on ignoring our allies?

17:43

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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My honourable friend makes a very powerful point, very succinctly, and I hope this House has heard it I hope the other party opposite listens to it. listens to it.

17:43

Rt Hon Sir John Hayes MP (South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)

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The right honourable gentleman knows the regard I have for him and indeed the Foreign Secretary for he knows my interest and involvement of national security matters. There is no debate across this House about the salience of Diego Garcia. It is absolutely critical to our national interest. The debate is about the legal advice. So will he come in the interest of scrutiny, provide, where it doesn't compromise national- security matters, all of the information advice given to him and previous ministers on the subject of this legal advice.

We suspect that advice could have been challenged advice could have been challenged for top and I --. And I suspect that his office and others would have received similar, if not the same legal advice, and resisted it. legal advice, and resisted it.

17:44

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The right honourable gentleman, this house will have plenty of opportunity to test and debate these issues. But he might start by asking those of his right honourable friends who were in government at the time, that started negotiations that judged at the time negotiations and deal that was necessary to safeguard the future of Diego Garcia, a full operational control of the base.

17:44

Mr Bayo Alaba MP (Southend East and Rochford, Labour)

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I also would like to commend the Secretary of State for his calm and measured approach and how we are approaching this very serious topic. Will the Minister expand on the safeguards of this deal? Particularly the 24 mile nautical exclusion or buffer zone. And the ban on foreign military presence. Which guarantee full UK command of the base. And I would like to remind some of my colleagues opposite it is important to lead and not follow and to use sensible measured language, not charged mistruths.

Thank you.

17:45

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, so the provisions of the treaty, as my honourable friend the treaty, as my honourable friend will see from the full text, guarantee the power of the UK, the right of the UK in the 24 nautical mile zone, immediately around the islands, and India space above, to patrol and control that airspace in a way that would be undermined, if we saw a succession of legal judgements started to establish a machine claim, a Mauritian claim to sovereignty, it would undermine that control, to control the skies in particular base.

17:46

Neil O'Brien MP (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston, Conservative)

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Under this deal we would be paying billions of pounds for the privilege of having our own territory taken away from us. The Minister talks about the threat to Minister talks about the threat to the base, as if Mauritius, a country with no Navy, is about to steam in or pick a fight with the United States. This is implausible. The whole house will have heard it, trying to dodge the question from the former Foreign Secretary. At the press, being press, scrambling to come up with a legal argument and coming up with something totally novel and hazy.

The truth is, Mr Speaker, our constituents are going to be paying billions so that the Prime Minister can bask in the warm glow of approval from his fellow human rights lawyers.

17:47

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Rubbish, absolute rubbish. It is £3.4 billion over 99 years. It is less than 0.2% of the annual defence budget. This is a good investment for unique capability that has played an essential part in defeating terrorism and breaking up terrorist groups. In deploying British forces, in protecting our trade routes and in monitoring the nuclear threats around the globe. This is an essential base, we run it jointly with the US, the US is full square behind us and I hope his square behind us and I hope his party will be also.

17:47

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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And I thank the Secretary of State for setting out very clearly why this is the right thing to do for the UK. Could he perhaps share with us any threat assessment he has indicated that without guaranteed, this is the key word, guaranteed access to Diego Garcia, China and other countries could attempt to expand their presence, building

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installations close to the base. Of course China wants to try and

17:48

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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move in on the Chagos Archipelago. Of course it was to try and set up operations of any activities that would allow it to interfere or monitor what we do from this base. This deal helps protect the base, it helps protect... helps protect...

17:48

Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)

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The Secretary of State claims, he has asserted from the Dispatch Box, it is a risk of an uncluttered judgement that is requiring this capitulation of sovereignty. Can he answer this specific question. Is he aware of a single case that is alive in UNCLOS at the moment that is against the United Kingdom?

17:49

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker. Within a few weeks, we expect rulings, we will start to weaken our ability to control and maintain our full operational sovereignty over Diego Garcia. Within just a few years, we expect that to be appointed which compromises our ability to continue the operations that are so essential to protecting people at home here and also protecting our forces, when

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they deploy around the world. Thank you, Mr Speaker. National- security decisions and the debate

17:49

Mike Tapp MP (Dover and Deal, Labour)

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security decisions and the debate should be led by fact, not political point scoring, as we have seen today, Mr Speaker. Does the Minister agree that, had the Conservative performed some sort of miracle and stayed in government at the next election, they too would have signed this deal? And we would have supported that in the interest of

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national-security. Mr Speaker, I do not want to

17:50

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Mr Speaker, I do not want to speak for the party opposite, but they were clearly trying to negotiate a deal. They had 11 rounds of negotiation. Any government of negotiation. Any government elected in June would have been faced with the challenge of how to secure the space for the long-term. It is clear that was their direction, it is clear they conceded the principle in government. I regret the fact they are not consistent in pursuing that principle, recognising the way we strengthened the deal and done the strengthened the deal and done the Cited Cited was Cited was great Cited was great old Cited was great old men Cited was great old men plant Cited was great old men plant trees and lose sheet.

That was always and lose sheet. That was always going to be hours and will be ours for 99 more years. Who will benefit from the shame? The British people and British forces will benefit. They will continue to and beyond the 99 years if we choose to exercise our first reviews or extend this deal for another 40 years. It was for the long term and for our national security.

17:51

Deirdre Costigan MP (Ealing Southall, Labour)

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I thank the Secretary of State for the statement. The cost of the deal is less than the cost of one aircraft carrier without the aircraft. Does the Secretary of State agree this is a price well worth paying to ensure the safety and security of the country?

17:52

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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It is and it is definitely a good investment for this country and it helps to protect security at home and to strengthen forces abroad and reinforce the very special security relationship that we have with our closest ally, the US.

17:52

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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I hope the Defence Secretary is across the detail. Mauritius and the UK jointly decide upon the management of the electro magnetic spectrum in the Chagos Archipelago spectrum in the Chagos Archipelago beyond. This is letter number one from May 2025 and so how will management of the spec should be reflected us in paragraph 1, clause 4, given the influence of the Chinese in the Pacific and the level of investment? What has the government done about access to the

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said electromagnetic spectrum? I will have a word with the Chief

17:53

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I will have a word with the Chief Whip. The honourable gentleman has made an early bid for committee

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membership. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Secretary of State agree it is telling one of the many Conservative

17:53

telling one of the many Conservative prime ministers we have had said in 2023 that he wanted to conclude a deal soon? Is it not the case that the bluster and red faces we have seen from the party opposite today is nothing more than the worst type of policy? of policy?

17:53

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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My honourable friend has a court that I have not and I would like to pass it on to me. He makes a powerful point. For this House, the party opposite, a number of whom served under the right honourable gentleman when he was Prime Minister.

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The government position is a hypothetical judgement to a

17:54

hypothetical judgement to a hypothetical scenario and why did they not simply appeal in this scenario?

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The operations... Look, the

17:54

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The operations... Look, the jeopardy and uncertainty over this bass is putting at risk security operations that are essential to us operations that are essential to us and our allies. We are not prepared to risk for national security and we have done a deal in order to secure for the long term a guaranteed full operational continuing control of Diego Garcia and the military base.

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America backed the deal and so

17:55

Mark Ferguson MP (Gateshead Central and Whickham, Labour)

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America backed the deal and so And this is our most crucial intelligence relationship. Does he agree it would be a dereliction of agree it would be a dereliction of duty to the country and those four countries to have failed to do this deal?

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deal? Well said. And I would also add

17:55

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Well said. And I would also add in to that list. Those countries are most staunch allies and our strongest supporters on the deal. Those countries that are adversaries Those countries that are adversaries and do us harm and one themselves to move into this part of the world in the archipelago do not want the base, the deal, and there is a question, whose side of the argument argue on?

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I respect

17:56

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I respect the expertise of the Defence Secretary and I hope you can help me because the ICJ said the treaty was because the ICJ said the treaty was a nonbinding decision and the court is worried about it. Why would he not challenge that and stand by that and have that process to see what it would look like and if that is the case, he was worried he was going to lose, with the published documentation as to why he was given that advice and so the country can understand why he's not making that challenge because then you could appeal to the public.

It looks like we are dipping into the deal without using the courts we could legally use our self.

17:57

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The opposition chief whip has a second candidate. There is an accumulation of challenges and a serious risk of legal issues and this is not a matter of international law but the direct impact on the operations of this essential risk to national security. The risk that it poses puts the future operation of the base in jeopardy and no responsible government could stand by and simply saying that it cannot act. No action is no option and that is why we have

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struck the deal and signed the treaty today. That concludes the statement and

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That concludes the statement and we come to a petition. The I rise to present a petition on

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I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of south Devon concerning the proposed

17:57

Petitions

Devon concerning the proposed temporary co-location of the NHS foundation trust out of hours

17:58

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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primary coronary intervention services at the Royal Devon and Exeter hospital. It would significantly improve travel times for patients with life concerning for patients with life concerning operations and many have contacted operations and many have contacted me afraid of delays to secure and quick access to treatment is critical and this proposal could endanger lives by reducing access. The petitioners request that the House of Commons urges the government to ensure that the government to ensure that the proposed co-location is looked at and all the services including out of hours services remain accessible of hours services remain accessible of hours services remain accessible And the petitioners remain.

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It is not for me to move.

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Petition, Location of the Torbay NHS Out Of Hours Coronary

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Intervention Services. Thank you.

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Thank you. I beg to move that this House do

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now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn.

17:59

Adjournment: A66 Northern Trans-Pennine Project

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do now adjourn. It is a pleasure and privilege to secure the last adjournment debate

17:59

Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)

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secure the last adjournment debate before recess and especially on an issue that I know is of great importance to my constituents in Cumbria and the wider region but I start with apologies to the Minister. Recess is starting and many colleagues have already set off to their constituencies and I dragged him to the graveyard shift. It's appreciated. Having spent months communicating with officials and national highways and along with the Member for Bishop Auckland and ministers from the Department of Transport and the Treasury, I view this is my last chance to get the project over the link.

In preparation for my first adjournment debate I noted the last time a politician spoke in an adjournment debate 24 years ago. The van- Speaker joined in the debate. I am sure that if Mr Speaker wanted to say some supporting words, my constituents would be very pleased although I admit that the extent to which the debate was stuck to interface and one is Debatable. It is the largest road project, the A66, another cost of £1.5 billion it is no surprise it is being reviewed.

I will separate the importance of it for my constituents and by the I know the Minister will not be announcing from the Dispatch Box the outcome of the spending review but I hope the Minister will confirm that the a 66 project is in the running and has not been shelved as was claimed by a conservative politician on BBC television last week. That politician oversaw and left Council on the brink of bankruptcy and the irony of them now pontificating on the nations finances is quite funky bazaar.

I take the financial position inherited from the last government very seriously, and I applaud the government's mission of securing sustained growth. The important thing for those of us in the rural north is that we see our fair share of this growth. And the investment that enables it. The last decade has given us reasons to worry. The IPPR North produced figures showing that between 2010 and 2020 the North missed out on £86 billion in transport investment, when compared to London. It leaves us weaker, the time we need growth.

Last year, the same think tank calculated the total public spending on transport projects in 23-24 was 1325 spending on transport projects in 23-24 was £1325 per person in London, more than double the six and 50 per person spent in the North. I welcome the government will you focus on the north, and the recent announcements of higher investment in the North of England this year, as part of the labours Plan for Change for top indeed, the Prime Minister has indicated the government will be spending more than double the money per head on local transport in the North end in itself this year.

-- Than in the south this year. I saw maybe the government's Integrated Rail Plan for the North that made not one mention of Cumbria. Mr Speaker, I see this project as a key enabler for delivering growth in my region. The project will see the upgrade of approximately 50 miles of the a 66 between the M6 at Penrith and the A1M at Scotch Corner. Converting single carriageway sections into dual carriageways and improving countless junctions along the route. I feel obliged to offer some expectation management for my constituents.

Not 1 mile of the role will be jewelled at the Penrith and Solway constituency. The major benefits for the residents of Penrith will be the upgrades to the M6 junction 40 and they kept the roundabout. I cannot count the number of times I sat in traffic on those junctions, alongside local residents, fighting through the commercial and tourist traffic, just trying to go about their daily business. The tourists stuck just at the beginning or end of their holiday in the Lake District National Park or North Pennines.

The HGVs anxiously thinking about their tachograph, or maybe they are thinking about dinner and getting home to their families, some of you I am sure are now. Those of you travelling down the M6, possibly not even conscious that a bottleneck on a parallel road is the cause. Just outside Penrith, this will help the East to West traffic North-South flow, which will reduce traffic volumes by 55% and provide major benefits for local people, including pedestrians and cyclists, improving access to Penrith itself and the facilities and the business around the roundabout.

It will reduce delays and queues at the M6 junction 40, and will ensure much better start to the holiday for visitors, whether they are travelling by car or taking advantage of the local active travel network. There will be environmental benefits and economic benefits. And we would feel as if the government had prioritised the rural north, so often neglected by central government. This project will improve connections between Cumbria, North Yorkshire, the Tees Valley, Tyne & Wear, and beyond. It is the most direct route between the central belt of Scotland, and the East side of England.

It connects cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh with Leeds, Sheffield and Norwich, if those journeys are made by road. Safety has been a huge concern en route. And there has been a number of avoidable deaths over the last of avoidable deaths over the last few years. The junctions of particular concern are at Richmond and Northallerton, and Westmorland and Lonsdale constituencies. And I know the honourable members are presenting those areas have raised their concerns. The wider route is regularly used by my constituents and I am acutely aware that the risks this stretch of road present.

Adjacent to the company roundabout is the Cumbria Fire and police headquarters with operational elements of both. Currently in the summer it can take 45 minutes for nonemergency vehicles to travel hundreds metres. For our emergency services, this congestion presents a significant issue, and I know Dave Allen, Cumbria's police fire and crime Commissioner, fully support the project. To improve emergency vehicle access, but also to make the letter a 66 safer. After my election in July, I met with national highway to discuss the scheme, knowing this government faced difficult choices.

I want to reassure us the business case was up-to-date and would withstand scrutiny. The primary economic benefits come from a travel time savings that will be realised by business users. The A 66 is an important route for freight traffic which HGVs comprising quarter of the vehicles en route, the fact that this is more than double the national average, highlights the importance of the route for business. The regular closures on the existing route presents significant disruptions to business and business transactions, with many of my constituency businesses directly affected.

During discussions with national highways, it became apparent that existing Treasury Green book guidance a distinction is being made with the Equinet case of general road users and business vehicles. This means the cost benefit ratio does not distinguish between an individual making a social trip in a car and HGV delivering vital components to a factory. For a road project so important to business, this is a disaster. I understand new guidance is on the way, but not in time for it to be used to appraise this project in this Spending Review.

This limits the ability for the economic case to tell the true story, so efforts have been put in to reflect this within the strategic case. But this still leaves me uncomfortable, that the true benefits of the scheme are not fully As was rated as I am, Mr Speaker, as it stands, the economic case still predicts hundreds of millions pounds of benefits, primarily through cost efficiency, saving the business, and even traditional tax revenue through employment. Mr Speaker, the project is vital for Cumbria.

It will reduce road traffic accident and deaths on the single carriage section of the route. It will improve strategic regional and national connectivity, particularly for heavy goods vehicles, which account for 1/4 of all traffic on the roads, doubling the national average. It will reduce delays and queues during busy periods and improved performances of key junctions, such as the a 66 junction, and the M6, junction 40. It might even occasionally stop me missing the train. I appeal to ministers, support this project.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. Right, let this come to Minister Greenwood, even though I'm tempted to say 22 years before we discuss

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this again with the Campbell savers. Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I

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Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I begin by congratulating my honourable friend, the member for Penrith and Solway on securing Penrith and Solway on securing today's debate on the A 66 N.

18:09

Lilian Greenwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Nottingham South, Labour)

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today's debate on the A 66 N. TransPennine project. I thank him for the arguments he has made. It has been some time since I travelled on the a 66 which tells me it is time for a trip to the electric sometime soon, although I will of course be rather airy -- Rather wary about how to take that journey full he has been a campaigner for this project which runs through part of his constituency, as he acknowledged, we have already met to discuss the importance of the project to the region, and indeed, its wider national significance.

And he has written to me to reiterate its value to business users, including freight, and highlighting the need to address safety concerns, which I take very seriously, as does the Secretary of State. Whilst the chamber is rather empty, this evening, I am pleased to take the opportunity to thank other honourable and right honourable members with constituencies along the route. Including my honourable friends for Bishop Auckland and Carlisle, for their correspondence and our meetings, to discuss their aspirations for the a 66.

I can assure my honourable friend and others that I have convinced ministers of the overwhelming local support for this important project. Rebuilding Britain means modernising our transport infrastructure. This government will maintain and renew our road network to ensure it serves all users, remains safe, and tackles congestion. However, as my honourable friend acknowledged, the financial inheritance this government has received is extremely challenging. Communities up and down the country have been given hope for new transport infrastructure, with no plans and no funds to deliver them.

We will not repeat that mistake. This government will rebuild our economic foundations, whilst restoring transparency and public trust. That is why, on 30 July, 2024, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a multi-year Spending Review. But let me be absolutely clear. The a 66 project is being considered as part of the second phase, which will conclude on 11 June. A decision cannot be taken separately from this process. And whatever has been claimed by other local politicians, I can assure him the project has not been shelved.

The Spending Review will support the development of our new long-term strategy for transport, developing a modern and integrated network with people at its heart. Within the north of England, the A 66 link at Penrith, and the A1(M) at Scotch Corner, is a key archery, in our strategic road network, providing a vital East-West connection, across the Pennines. It links ports on the East Coast of England, with North West England, southern Scotland, and ferry links to Northern Ireland. The nearest alternative east-west motorway is the M 62, much further south.

And looking northwards, the M8 in Scotland. Today, the A 66 is approximately 50 miles long, a mixture of single carriageways and dual carriageways. Approximately half of the route has already been duelled, leaving six sections of single carriageway to be upgraded. National highways noted that collision rates on the single carriageway sections tend to be higher than on the duelled sections, and tragically, the number of lives have been lost on the route in recent years. More than 22% of the vehicles on the route are goods vehicles, which is approximately twice the average proportion of such vehicles, on the strategic road network as a whole.

As my honourable friend notes, the A 66 is a vital link for people living along the route, enabling them to reach shops, services and employment in nearby towns. For many living along the route, there is no alternative real connection. Upgrading the TransPennine a 66 would enable traffic to flow more quickly. The scheme would make the A 66 a more viable option for freight operators as they move goods around the country, aiding economic growth. As my honourable friend noted, the economic case for the scheme could be improved if higher values for the freight value of time were included in the transport analysis guidance.

We aim to do that in the future. However, I am pleased to be able to assure him that the economic assessment of this project for Spending Review deliberations, included a sensitivity test, to show the impact of using high values for freight values of time. Dualling the remaining sections would make the route more resilience, when incidents to occur, as most collisions would be confined to the carriageways, allowing traffic on the other carriageway to pass, although, of course, we would prefer there to be no collisions at all.

My final point on of the A 66 N. TransPennine project itself, is that it is estimated the scheme could support the building of thousands of houses and support the creation of thousands of jobs as part of growth deals and local plans along the route. It could also support Carlisle's plants eight Cuthberts Garden Village, an ambitious proposal, for 10,000 new homes and economic opportunities. Upon the conclusion of the Spending Review, the... Until the conclusion of the Spending Review, the interim settlement is a settlement for the national highways for this financial year.

This investment includes more than £3 billion for capital enhancements, including the A 66 N. Entrance -- Northern Trans-Pennine Project scheme, well be returned to the settlements in a sustainable way. The A 66 Northern Trans-Pennine Project, alongside few other future project is being considered as part of the Spending Review. Until that concludes, the department is not in a position to make a judgement about individual schemes. But I can assure my honourable friend that my department is committed to putting transport at the heart of this transport at the heart of this I am determined that we build a structure to drive economic growth in every part of the country including the rural north.

Finally, I congratulate him again for securing this debate, I thank him for his contribution. I hope that he is reassured that the Department fully appreciates the importance of the proposal to his constituents and those of other constituencies along the route and indeed, the wider country and that the scheme is being considered carefully. And thank you

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again for today's debate. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order,

18:22

Oral questions: Culture, Media and Sport

18:22

Lilian Greenwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Nottingham South, Labour)

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18:22

Oral questions: Culture, Media and Sport

18:23

Lilian Greenwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Nottingham South, Labour)

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18:23

Oral questions: Culture, Media and Sport

House House of House of Commons House of Commons - House of Commons - 22 House of Commons - 22 May House of Commons - 22 May 2025.

18:47

Lilian Greenwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Nottingham South, Labour)

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18:52

Oral questions: Culture, Media and Sport

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Order, Order, order. Order, order. We Order, order. We start Order, order. We start with questions.

18:57

Q1. If she will produce an impact assessment for the proposed Remote Betting and Gaming Duty on the British horseracing industry. (904264)

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questions. Question number one.

18:57

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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Question number one. Thank you. I would like to begin by saying that the Secretary of State is in Japan at the world Expo conference, strengthening relations. She has written you to you to explain her absence. Horseracing makes a significant impact on the economy and I would like to pay tribute to Rachel Blackmore who was had a fantastic impact on the port and enjoyed enormous success and I wish I were with her retirement. The consultation on tax gambling is on his matched easily.

Any impact assessment of any legislative changes will be a matter for that department.

18:57

Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)

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The racing industry is getting a bit tired of the warm words and lack of action. The last question, the Secretary of State said to me that we need to treat different forms of gambling differently. The government has since proposed a flat tax on online gambling which fails to distinguish differences, but problem gambling rates on bets in racing are about the same from lottery scratchcards so will the Minister commit here and now to making sure betting on sports like racing is not

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treated the same as betting on online casinos and gaming? I would like to begin by saying

18:58

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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I would like to begin by saying how much I'm a big supporter of racing. I appreciate how many jobs it appreciates to the economy. That's 85,000. I know that is important to rural areas and towns. The consultation that he refers to as a Treasury league opened 21 July, but I will reflect his comments to the Treasury.

18:58

Sally Jameson MP (Doncaster Central, Labour )

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Doncaster race is the jewel in my city's crown, so following on from the member opposite, can the Minister confirm she will continue dialogue with the Treasury on the proposed flat rate of tax, recognising that horseracing which brings 85,000 jobs to the country nationally and is the second largest spectator sport in the country is

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very different from online casinos and games of chance. I will reflect those comments to

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I will reflect those comments to the Treasury. I have had a fun time

18:59

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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the Treasury. I have had a fun time in Barnsley and I would be delighted to visit her constituency again if I can.

18:59

Q2. What steps her Department is taking to help incentivise film production in the UK. (904265)

Question number two. of audiovisual tax reliefs with support for business relief, business rates relief and funding directly into the industry.

18:59

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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We were meant to be seeing the £700 million sunset studio project which is now sadly not going ahead. In part due to this governance national insurance increase, new implement regulations and this government handling of the economy. Is that what the government means by supporting the film industry?

18:59

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Nonsense. The honourable gentleman may only have just arrived in this house in the last year and of course, it is the anniversary today of the moment when the former prime minister, people rained on his parade, but I would simply point out to him that the company suspended its plans in his constituency when there was a Conservative government.

19:00

Alistair Strathern MP (Hitchin, Labour)

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I am determined to make sure people can access them. I recently opened college to make sure people can access state of the art things in the area. How can we make sure more young people can access these opportunities?

19:00

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I'm glad someone is celebrating the industry, and he is absolutely right. We need to make sure the kids are every sickle constituency in this land can do this, and I'm delighted that since we introduced our first two tax relief last autumn in the budget, we have seen a large number of applications to the British film Institute and I am absolute certain that that will mean that high-end televisions in the UK will be very likely for many years Sport England and server £250 million of funding each year to the communities that need it most.

19:01

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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We benefit from investment from the government and the reviving of tennis courts, but we have a barrier to participation, and many in my towns and visitors are part of that, so will the Minister consider funding the development of more covered courts to allow my constituents to enjoy tennis whatever the weather?

19:01

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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This government wants to ensure that people can get active in anyway that works for them come rain or shine. I welcome the launch tennis ambition to grow tennis and paddle by making it accessible and enjoyable, but all future decisions will be considered as part of the spending review.

19:02

Mr Louie French MP (Old Bexley and Sidcup, Conservative)

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I welcome the member support for our investment into government, and I would like to put on record our condolences to the families of the two Israeli embassy staff killed overnight in Washington. Grassroots facilities are key to our communities and sports clubs across the country which is why we invested more than £500 million into the next generation of athletes, but in 10 months, this Labour government has cut the £21 million grassroots facilities program, scrap the 30 million lioness's fund and cancelled opening school facility grants.

Equally worrying, they are now trying to remove sport singly from the statutory role in protecting Plainfield across the country, so I asked the Minister for isn't it clear that only the Conservatives will save our sports pitches from this a one thing and do another Labour government.

19:03

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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I don't recognise the comments from the shadow minister and I won't take any lessons from the party opposite on facilities when they oversaw a decade of council cuts which so many of our leisure facilities in desperate need of renovation. constituency.

19:03

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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The programme of cultural cooperation which the Secretary of State signed earlier this month creates opportunities for the cultural sectors to reach a market of over 1.4 billion people in India. We expect this agreement to create skills, jobs and opportunities for young people over the next five years.

19:03

Deirdre Costigan MP (Ealing Southall, Labour)

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Thank you. The liberty cinema in my constituency of Ealing Southall, now the Himalaya Palace chopping centre, was the first cinema in the country to regularly show Bollywood country to regularly show Bollywood films, and Southall has the backbone of many Bollywood movies since then, so I welcome disagreement to increase cooperation between the UK and Indian film industries for the benefit of both economies, so what more can a government and the Minister do to encourage cultural partnership so the next generation of the British in diaspora in Southall can continue to enjoy their vibrant heritage?

19:04

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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There couldn't be a better constituency MP to be able to represent this and my honourable friend, and to show that symbolic uniting of Indian culture. British Bhangra was also originally created out of Ealing Southall, and so many Anglo British writers have been quintessential as determining our literary future. I'm glad we have had this cultural agreement, and I'm glad we can work on progressing the ideas that she and others have come up with.

19:05

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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Whether it is Bollywood, Hollywood or Borehamwood, I'm sure the Minister will agree that our cultural and creative industries are global economic superpowers. But while the Secretary of State is able today, rumours abound that the whole department for media support is for the chop. You must see that this sends out a terrible message about how their government values the power of those industries. I wonder if he would take the opportunity to put that remit about, and if he can't.

can't.

19:05

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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If we were to get rid of the Department, we would have to get rid of the Select Committee as well, and for that matter, the whole of the Frontbench. Maybe that is a good idea. No, let's be serious. Firstly, the Secretary of State is not absent without lead. She's doing important job of building our relationship with Japan. The second point is I'm not going to put this rumour to bed. I'm going to bury it because in the words of Stephen some time, I'm absolutely certain that, in a years time, we will be able to sing as in the musical follies I'm still here.

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Question number five.

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Question number five. I am a huge supporter of tennis and the role it plays in getting people active. I enjoyed a trip to people active. I enjoyed a trip to the tennis centre and met people from the LTA. The government is

19:06

Q5. What steps she is taking to help increase the number of covered tennis courts in Hartlepool constituency. (904271)

from the LTA. The government is committed to make sure that everyone has access to quality sport and

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physical activity opportunities. Article this home to a number of thriving tennis clubs, including thriving tennis clubs, including Hartlepool lawn tennis club which founded in 1884, one of the oldest tennis clubs in the world, but despite that history, we do not have access to covered tennis pause access to covered tennis pause meaning that weather often disrupts participation, particularly amongst those in the disability or long-term health condition. Earlier this week, we called on the government to call we called on the government to call in a new national network of covered tennis courts, and I want one for Hartlepool.

Will the Minister Hartlepool. Will the Minister consider this request so that every community can take part in tennis

19:07

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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community can take part in tennis I wish them every success in the upcoming events and I'm looking forward to the return of women's tennis to Queens. Every decision will be put into the Spending Review but I'm happy to meet him to discuss further.

19:07

Joe Robertson MP (Isle of Wight East, Conservative)

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Together with the LTA, the last Conservative government invested £30 million in Park tennis courts, 2500 of them all over the country including in and around the Hartlepool area. That is to the benefit of local communities. Why is this government not continue with that investment?

19:08

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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As I have said all future decisions are for the Spending Review. We are pleased to see the work they have done and I'm happy to meet with him to discuss.

19:08

Q6. What progress her Department has made on removing barriers for UK artists seeking to tour in the EU. (904272)

Question number six. the Prime Minister's EU-UK deal the Prime Minister's EU-UK deal included a direct reference to the importance of touring artists and cultural exchange. I have already been in touch with my EU been in touch with my EU counterparts Commissioner. And I intend to take this forward as soon as I can.

19:08

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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It is now over four years since I first raised this is an urgent question in the House of Commons. In that time nearly half of citizens so they have lost work in Europe and precious income, and all these Brexit and visa issues and restrictions. The Labour manifesto vowed to resolve this. And we are grateful for the warm words in the reset document but real action is required. When can we see our wonderful UK artist back in the concert halls and arenas of Europe, travelling freely and without any restriction?

19:09

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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That is absolutely our aim and intention. He knows I am Is committed to this as he is. It was a very good EU-UK deal but we want to make sure we pursue all the individual issues that were raised, that have not yet been resolved, and this is one of them. I have already made contact with the Commissioner and I intends to chase this down as I can. I know he does not like being happy but, if I might just quote Hamlet to him, " Our doubts, our traitors, make us lose the good which often we might win by failing to attend.

"

19:10

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for his really encouraging remarks about the progress of the UK-EU deal. Does he agree with me that the changes that we are making really support the vitality of London's West End, and provide a really strong foundation tackling the issue of carnets in our future negotiations with the EU so we continue this great work? Quite he he

19:10

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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She is right. The theatre is a major part of our culture and tourism, it is a major part of the deal we have struck. We want to build on this. The more we can do in the coming months the better. Mr Speaker, I don't if you have talked your counterparts in Europe but if

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you can raise the matter with them as well it would be helpful. Question seven Mr Speaker.

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Question seven Mr Speaker. Liberal Democrat spokesman. Thank you Mr Speaker. Please do

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Please do not be forgotten. If we are not be forgotten. If we are abolished perhaps we will all be. There have been previous positive

19:11

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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There have been previous positive statements on touring performers but there was no concrete good news in the UK-EU deal for top touring performers are of course right on this department to fight their corner as is the rest of the creative industries. He says he is burying the rumour about the abolition of DCMS so why does he think so many people here think it is going to happen and why is it

19:12

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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being briefed to the press? Quite why is he perpetuating daft rumours? why is he perpetuating daft rumours? Honestly, the Department is not going to be abolished, it would be going to be abolished, it would be absolute madness. This department touches the lives of nearly everybody in the country every single day of the week whether it is through sports, football, rugby, cricket, tennis, or through broadcasting or through a wonderful creative industries. So many creative industries. So many different aspects of what we do and I cannot see any way in which this I cannot see any way in which this department will be abolished.

This was a question about EU touring. If I might just say to him, if he can I might just say to him, if he can talk to all the liberal leaning governments in Europe, I talk to all governments in Europe, I talk to all the socialist leaning governments in Europe and the Tories speak to, well, their colleagues in Europe, well, their colleagues in Europe, and for that matter Reform can speak to some of the barn pots in Europe, and we might manage to secure EU touring.

19:12

Q7. What discussions she has had with the Premier League on the distribution of funding to lower league football clubs. (904275)

Question seven Mr Speaker. importance of distribution for the health of English football and is health of English football and is engaging extensively with the authorities including the Premier League to encourage industry to come to an agreement that works for the to an agreement that works for the football period. We have course have a Football Governance Bill that gives the independent regulator the power to ensure such an agreement is power to ensure such an agreement is made from can't agree.

19:13

Carolyn Harris MP (Neath and Swansea East, Labour)

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Clubs like my local club are

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Clubs like my local club are struggling. In fact the clubs reported that all but four clubs are making a loss with an average loss making a loss with an average loss of £17.5 million. What's more can we of £17.5 million. What's more can we do to speed up a deal between the Premier League and lower league clubs to ensure that funds are fairly distributed, to help so many

19:13

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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local teams survive? Continued debate about the potential deal serves no one we understand the uncertainty this can understand the uncertainty this can cause to clubs. We are backing the football regulator, that is what will encourage members to do because

19:13

Tom Morrison MP (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)

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will encourage members to do because we are keeping a manifesto commitment.

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Last week I met with Nick from a football club, fantastic organisation helping with youth football. But they are struggling particularly when it comes to energy prices which are impacting huge amounts of grassroots football across this country. What's more can the government to get the Premier the government to get the Premier League and the larger clubs to help with these lower league grassroots clubs to offer support particularly

19:14

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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around energy prices? I thank you for the question I

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I thank you for the question I know from my own constituency huge benefit grassroots clubs do. Premier League put a huge amount of money League put a huge amount of money down through the pyramid. We are appointing regulators if they can't come to voluntary deal it will help do that. We have the Football Foundation network to the Premier League to put money into grassroots. I would be happy to meet with him to discuss further. To I wholeheartedly support the Football Governance Bill which will begin its committee stage which will begin its committee stage in the space.

It is crucial that we support football at all levels of the pyramid. What work is my right honourable friend doing to ensure adequate amount of pitches are available in my constituency? available in my constituency?

19:14

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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I thank her. She is a strong champion for her area. I have met with its talk about grassroots facilities in Dudley. We work with the Football Foundation direction we invest around the country in our grassroots facilities.

19:15

With the burdens of the Employment Rights Bill, the hike in National Insurance and the introduction of yet another regulator, Can the minister give assurance to football fans in my constituency that this will not lead to hikes in ticket prices? Quite I don't recognise the premise of the question. We on this side of the House are committed to a manifesto. My friend reminds metres one year since the general election was called when we were in the Bill called when we were in the Bill Committee talking about the Football Governance Bill.

We spent many hours together and we have strengthened this bill and fans will be consulted on ticket pricing.

19:15

Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)

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Shadow Secretary of State. raise serious questions. During the hearing at the Select Committee, it was revealed that the candidate had also donated to both the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister's leadership campaigns. Something I don't recall being declared king second reading. The Secretary of State has now rightly been forced to recuse herself in the process. Given the appointment will likely have a prime ministerial in, will the Prime Minister to be doing the same?

19:16

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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There is no suggestion of wrongdoing. David Kogan was approached under his government for the role. We have full confidence, he was endorsed by the cross-party Select Committee.

19:16

Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)

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... The gentleman in question was not approached by me or any of the ministers but by the permanent secretary so not by any political ministers. I know that the honourable gentleman has been on a long audition for the role of Secretary of State for the Department, so his comments about the rumours of the abolishing of DCMS are reassuring. Can I gently point out that most of these briefings seem to be coming from number 10? Will the Minister speak to people in Number 10 to give reassurance to all of those sectors that this department will remain for the years ahead?

19:17

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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Of course David Kogan was appointed to the board of Channel 4 under the previous Conservative government. He has been welcomed across this House and across the media and footballing world. My colleague has very much dismissed the rumours, it's obviously very thing we read in the papers.

19:17

Q8. What discussions she has had with Cabinet colleagues on the provision of sporting facilities in areas of housing growth. (904279)

Thank you Mr Speaker. Question

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number eight. Access to places and spaces to be

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Access to places and spaces to be physically active including high quality sports facilities is likely important for local communities

19:17

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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important for local communities across the country for the that is why we are investing £100 million via the grassroots sport program to provide access to high-quality facilities and support more players getting onto the pitch where ever they live.

19:17

Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)

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In my oxygen constituency in Didcot, local authorities want to support the provision of major leisure facilities for a growing population including in Wantage Park. But they have not managed to secure enough funding via section 106 agreements. Will the Minister meet with me to discuss a more strategic approach to help us create healthier and happier communities? Quite leisure facilities are vital Quite leisure facilities are vital to getting people active and I am happy to meet with him. happy to meet with him.

19:18

Rachel Taylor MP (North Warwickshire and Bedworth, Labour)

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The leisure centre and swimming pool in my hometown is beyond its useful life. This is the case for over 50% of swimming facilities up and down the country. We talk about building new homes, we need to make sure that we are building communities who are accessible to people with facilities for them to enjoy sports. As we look forward to a fantastic summer of tennis, I would also like to put in a plea for covered tennis facilities because half of the time it is raining and you can't play tennis in the rain.

you can't play tennis in the rain.

19:19

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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A very cheery message from tennis. I think of course we are committed to building 1.5 million new homes. We want to make sure they are communities. I agree with my honourable friend has said and would be delighted to discuss it further be delighted to discuss it further with her.

19:19

Q9. What steps her Department is taking to support the growth of creative industries in Wales. (904280)

Question number nine. earlier. Our primary support for creative industry is in Wales is through the tax reliefs available to videogames, the audiovisual sector, theatre, museums, and orchestra. And through our research and development screen industry cluster which is in the Cardiff region.

19:19

Catherine Fookes MP (Monmouthshire, Labour)

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I have many constituents who have written to express concerns about generative AI. They obtained on it without compensation without their consent. They need action now, will the Minister, what will the Minister do with the opportunity before us today, this afternoon with that Data Bill to ensure our fantastic creative industries are copyright protected?

19:20

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I think that the UK is that creative content superpower and we should do nothing to undermine that. I know in her own constituency, there is a very famous gallery where they produce blue plaques would celebrate many of the creative industry heroes around the country. I launched one for Cary Grant in Bristol not long ago. I'm keen that we make sure that we protect those industries and enhance them for the future. I think she basely said can we have a debate later on the Data Bill, and we are going to.

19:20

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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I thank the Secretary of State for that. Creative industries in Wales are incredibly important. It is also important to have creative industries everywhere in the United Kingdom. There's also an opportunity for those in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England together to look at the opportunity of having creative industry exchanges. Is it something that the Minister has considered so the benefits from Wales to come to Northern Ireland, Scotland?

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Yes, very creative indeed. All the way from Monmouth to Northern the way from Monmouth to Northern Ireland. The truth is that all our creative industries to function across the whole of the UK. It is making those links between different making those links between different parts of the UK that is a very important part of making sure that we prosper into the future. I visited Bad Wolf studios in Cardiff. Phenomenal work they are doing their filming Industry. Doctor Who was filming Industry.

Doctor Who was filmed there. I know many people have worked in Cardiff will also

19:21

Q10. What steps her Department is taking to support the growth of creative industries in Bedford constituency. (904281)

have worked in Cardiff will also work in Northern Ireland which has a lively high-end television sets as well.

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Mr Speaker, the most important thing we have done for Bedford is that we have now secured Universal

19:21

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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that we have now secured Universal Studios theme park which will be the biggest theme park in Europe and one of the biggest investment in the UK for many many years.

19:22

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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Huge congratulations to the Department on securing the investment in Bedford. With the creative industries rightly a priority for growth, does the Minister agree that this must also support grassroot venues like one in Bedford that is seeking community ownership through that Music Venue Trust? Will he support efforts to protect the local institutions that merge the Committee identity?

19:22

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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He is right, it is great to have that themepark coming. Shelley secular state said it was all down to him, he did not get this across the line. The whole point of the deal is it is not a deal to get it over the line. He's actually right it is not just about massive theme parks, you also need small venues such as the one he refers to, I think George Ezra has performed, and Coldplay have performed twice. That is why I'm glad we have managed to get over the line.

The idea of a levy on arena tickets to help fund Since we last met, we close the deal on a multibillion pound investment in a new universal theme Park, the Secretary of State had an agreement which helped underpin the Free Trade Agreement that we concluded this month. I have been working with colleagues to deliver a solution to the ongoing uncertainty facing the advertising and broadcasting sectors, as will be reported today in the Ministerial statements.

And my colleague here in the whole of the Department the Secretary of State worked hard with thousands of others including the Royal British Legion to include 1/18 anniversary of VE Day that we can all be proud of. The Order Paper as you know refers to members of to formally gave their lives during the Second World War which is an idea that I can with many years ago. There is a mistake because it was Ronnie Cartland who gave his life in the war, one of the bravest people who protected thousands of others giving his life.

19:24

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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I'm glad I could fulfil your idea.

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Room fell fast as a Viking Festival. They launched in 2022, attracted more than 20,000 visitors, attracted more than 20,000 visitors, and now talented local producer is developing this concept into becoming Havelock's kingdom. What becoming Havelock's kingdom. What support can the Minister offer to back projects like this that create

19:25

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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this in Great Grimsby. I have written some of the material that is going on for the weekend going. I didn't know the weekend going. I didn't know the story myself of the fishermen who saved the young prince Havelock. It is a great story and it's good to see that there is new artwork outside the Institute which has

19:25

Saqib Bhatti MP (Meriden and Solihull East, Conservative)

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outside the Institute which has modernised the old artwork that used to be there. She is right foot we need to do more for coastal

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communities. The Minister will know that our creative sectors including our artists, writers, publishers and artists, writers, publishers and fashion industry to name a few are all fighting for their professional lives as they are coming to use intellectual properties for a I'm intellectual properties for a I'm model is, so why won't the government put an end to the AI copyright issue and back the

19:25

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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copyright issue and back the amendments from the Lords which have such overwhelming support? For a start, this is a debate that we will have later on this that we will have later on this afternoon. I am determined that we will secure through this whole process is that we will get to a place where people who have copyright, creators of every copyright, creators of every different time will be able very easily to protect their rights, will be able to gain renumeration, and where AI companies will be numerate the work they pay for to create their systems.

I just note that the Conservative party is all over the shop.

19:26

Catherine Fookes MP (Monmouthshire, Labour)

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Recently, I have been looking at the Monmouthshire constituents about breaking into the industry is very difficult for those outside major cities, and as he knows, having visited, we have no cities in Monmouthshire, it is all small towns, so what actions the government taking to create more opportunity for talented people to enter and stay in the arts enter and stay in the arts industries, regardless of their backgrounds.

19:27

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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She makes a good point. One thing that worries me is that quite often, the people who conceive of it as a possible career people whose parents worked in that industry. I don't want the creative industries to be a hereditary one. I want everyone to have a chance. That is partly about making sure that we champion the creative industries. They are our economic future and we must embrace them and also make sure that everybody gets a decent chance in life.

19:27

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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Apart from sensational ice cream, I'm sure the Minister will join me in congratulating Skegness in being awarded the prestigious blue Flag award for the quality of its beach but I am concerned that not enough people can enjoy this because of a lack of direct Public Transport Bill London, National Express have not restored their coach service and there is no direct train link to Skegness, so will the Minister work with me to try and improve direct transport links? transport links?

19:28

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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The best oh screen was produced by subzero, and I'm happy to have a contest with him any day of the week on that front, and I would suggest to him that one of the reasons why the beaches in the UK improved was because we joined the EU, and before our membership of the European Union, all our beaches were covered in tar.

19:28

Patrick Hurley MP (Southport, Labour)

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Earlier this week, I attended the launch of the independent venue community, a charity which is aiming to bring community activity into night-time music venues when the usually close. Does the Minister agree with me that such innovative thinking is beneficial with town centre renewal, and what support can centre renewal, and what support can they offer to make sure that is rolled out nationwide?

19:29

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Yes, I agree with everything said, and since you like brevity, I will just say yes.

19:29

Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)

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One of the best experiences I had as Minister was visiting cases around the country. I would like to extend an offer to the Minister to come to Salisbury, to see the work of the creatives. We welcome his insights to maximise investment in South Wiltshire and how that can be facilitated.

19:29

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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I do get a lot of insights. Frankly, some of them I take up, and I am a bit a Joanna, I can't say no. I always say, let's go when I ought to say next.

19:30

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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We have many dance schools such as the Crystal Academy which is down School of the year. It can empower people from all backgrounds, but we are in the national curriculum, and varied high-quality sports offers cannot only be for a privileged few, sick and I asked the Minister what

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steps the government is taking to ensure that all schools can inspire schools to advance. It takes 2 to tango, and we are

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It takes 2 to tango, and we are working with the Department for education to try and make sure that

19:30

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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education to try and make sure that creative education is a really important part of the schools. Fewer kids are studying creative subjects is a problem, and we need to rectify it.

19:30

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

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In passing, wouldn't he concede that the voluntary grassroots music levy isn't making the progress that we would all hope for? Almost 90,000 % of shows do not have any levy at all. Surely it's now time to think of a formal way that we can look at how this is required.

19:31

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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We would make the statutory levy if we have to but I think we are making process. We need to make some essential process by the third quarter of the year. We have half a million tickets that have been applied to. I want to get bigger numbers and we did a good job of coming up with this idea. We are determined to put it forward, and if we can be less grumpy it would help us. If he could ring everyone he knows in the industry and persuade them to sign up to the levy, that would be great.

19:32

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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This Labour government delivers strategy and opens a network of young future hubs, what assurances can the Minister give me that the Department will learn from the best practice of charities with future hope in my constituency, and will he join me to talk about how they are delivering young people?

19:32

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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The government value services and we know that this affects young people's lives. We continue to work on the national strategy and if my diary allows, I will be delighted to visit.

19:32

Rt Hon Esther McVey MP (Tatton, Conservative)

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The great Parliamentary ice cream, of course Cheshire does the best ice cream. But given the huge riches in the Premier League, should there be a greater expectation that more money flows down into grassroots level football and nonleague clubs who work unbelievably hard just to stay afloat, especially as so many of those Premier League footballers live just up the road from those two clubs.

19:32

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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It is not the government to decide that, but I know from my own experience that grassroots clubs play a huge role in communities. The play a huge role in communities. The Premier League do provide a lot.

19:33

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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The issue of copyright in creatives is begin the news because of AI, but it has also been a long- running issue before this, and it is good that the spotlight is on it. Will the Minister look into the levy of IT equipment so that people are providing their creative material on that gets some royalties under the lending scheme? This is an early idea, but if he can talk about this idea, but if he can talk about this soon, he will get some success.

19:33

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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We are reluctant to start putting levies on things that closed British business down. But he makes a very good point about trying to make sure that people have an opportunity to make a career and a living out of creative industries. It strikes me that more than 50% of people working freelance in the industry, that is something we have to look at, and if something we have to look at, and if she has a very large sector inherent constituency.

19:34

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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Somerset is home to some iconic film locations such as Glastonbury Tor which featured in the kid who would be King, Montague House in sense and sensibility, and of course sense and sensibility, and of course hot fuzz which was filmed in Wales, so what steps is the Minister taking to ensure the film industry in the UK thrives and continues to use our iconic locations?

19:34

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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One of the things that brings a lot of people to the UK as tourists and we want to get 50 million tourists by 2030 is coming to see places where things were filmed. I went to Bath recently and saw so many different places where there's been filming for Britain and lots of different movies and so on, so it is a really important part of the business that we do, and sometimes we need to make sure that local authorities take up these opportunities.

19:34

Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)

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There has been rapid expansion of new homes in my constituency, but sports facilities are not keeping pace, and we have seen a fight to save the recce. How will the Minister ensure that when you homes are created, we protect and develop new sport facilities in parks for new sport facilities in parks for local people? Take this government is committed to grassroots sports which is why we have invested over which is why we have invested over £100 million this year. I will reflect her comments to the relevant department though.

19:35

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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We have a much cherished local facility which has fallen into disrepair and been unable to open for the community this year. I was trying to raise funds to restore it, what can the Minister due to help?

19:35

Stephanie Peacock MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) (Barnsley South, Labour)

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Local authorities suffered huge cuts which is why many sprinkles have fallen into disrepair. I will look into the issue and I understand there is a debate the first week back.

19:35

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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The bands I played in never quite got to a European tour, but artists tell me of how much they and their teams have suffered in the disastrous post-Brexit landscaper touring artists. We have the best bands and artisan the world which bring huge joy to us here and want to share the love abroad, and into doing so, bring money to the economy, so can we make sure that he acts with haste because all the world as a stage.

Let's open more toys for them.

19:36

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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One man in his part plays many parts, and he is one of those people. We are determined to sort this out. I know there are many of us who fear we lost many things when Brexit happens, but there are otherwise words from Shakespeare. Queen Margaret, men never sit and cheer their last but seek how to cheer their last but seek how to redress their harms.

19:36

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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The amazing dancers at Eastbourne shining stars dance Academy have qualified for the dance World Cup in Spain this July. It will cost thousands of pounds to get them there so they have launched a crowdfunding campaign. Will they back the campaign and congratulate them for their achievement? them for their achievement?

19:37

Chris Bryant MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)

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Yes, if he sends them a link, I will contribute myself. of order.

19:37

Sally Jameson MP (Doncaster Central, Labour )

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Thank you. Please accept my apologies because in my haste to stand up for horseracing, I forgot to refer to my register of interest detailing an event at Doncaster detailing an event at Doncaster

19:37

Mr Speaker

Can I thank your gentlemen for pointing out what he did, and the record will be corrected. That

19:37

Oral questions: Church Commissioners and House of Commons Commission and Public Accounts Commission and Restoration and Renewal Client Board and Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission

complete questions, let us move on.

19:37

Q1. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church is taking to roll out stand-alone services to bless same-sex couples. (904305)

We now come to questions to Church Commissioners, the House of Commons Commission of and the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission.

19:38

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. A proposal to enable churches to opt in to stand-alone faith services is currently out for consultation. It will come back to that house bishops in October. in October.

19:38

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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Does the honourable member agree with me that the next Archbishop of Canterbury should be someone who can show leadership on this issue both for the congregation and clergy who want to participate? To ensure that Church of England finally treats LGBT Anglicans equally within the church. To quote church. To quote

19:38

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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While I can't comment on who the next Archbishop should be, the process is well underway and I'm sure honourable members will join me in holding them in prayer as they go about this very important work. This issue does affect many people and people have deep feelings on it. If the House of Bishops to approve the proposals, the business committee of the General Synod could timetable this issue for a debate in February

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2026. Number two Mr Speaker.

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Number two Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. With your permission I wish to group questions permission I wish to group questions two and four. In October 2023, the Archbishop of Jerusalem and Canterbury launched an emergency appeal of the Diocese of Jerusalem. It receives donations from It receives donations from international partners including the international partners including the UK. The fund supports people throughout the holy land and has supported medical services for vulnerable outpatients in a hospital vulnerable outpatients in a hospital in Gaza, St Luke's Hospital, and a clinic in Jenin.

19:40

Mary Glindon MP (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend, Labour)

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clinic in Jenin. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thousands of Palestinians including children of Palestinians including children are detained by the Israeli military force to reports of mistreatment and torture date back to UNICEF's 2013 report on Israeli military report on Israeli military detention. Last year the UN special rapporteur's highlighted the bad treatment with people rate, waterboarded, tied to beds unfolded, and in nappies. What can the church do to help end this appalling treatment? treatment?

19:40

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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The church unequivocally condemns all forms of violence and torture. I know I speak for many when I say this must end against Alice Finian. But there is a hard limit on what the church can do the Israeli military continues to oppress Palestinians in the West Bank and also in Gaza. We need an end to the occupation, a return of all Israeli hostages and Palestinian detainees without charge. An immediate ceasefire and an all essential aid being allowed into Gaza.

19:41

James Asser MP (West Ham and Beckton, Labour)

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We have seen increasing settler violence in the West Bank and over Easter as Christians were restricted and prevented from worshipping. I asked my honourable Friend to encourage the Church of England to do all it can working with other churches and across faiths to protect the rights of the Palestinian people and ensure freedom of worship across all fates in the face of increased harassment and violence? and violence?

19:41

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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I thank you for the question was the we agree that the mass atrocities in Gaza and the attacks on civilians in the West Bank have been repeatedly raised at Church Commissioner questions, indeed by himself on previous occasions. I have written to the Foreign Secretary on this issue. I can assure him that bishops of the Church of England have regularly visited Palestine to hear from Christians on the ground. It is Christians on the ground. It is clear that to see an end to military and settler attacks on Palestinian worshippers, we need to see an end to occupation.

The church is deeply concerned that worshippers were restricted from worshipping during the Easter period. the Easter period.

19:42

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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I met this week with the Greek orthodox Patriot. Under the orthodox Patriot. Under the traditional status quo, the tax was only levied by the Israel authorities on some churches was not they are now living it on church property is used for religious purposes. This is an existential crisis for the Christian churches in Jerusalem. It is part of a pattern of intolerable pressure which has resulted in the Christian population now reduced to just 45,000 people in the West Bank.

This must stop and I beg the Church of England, the Catholic Church, all Christians in this country, everybody else, to really shout at the top of their voice that Christians in the holy land deserve to be treated with respect.

19:43

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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I thank her Father of the House for his question. He makes a truly important point. Everybody should have the freedom to worship. Nobody should be allowed to act with impunity to prevent that. He rightly says it is up to us to use our voices for the voiceless. The churches of England, the Catholic Church, all people of faith. We shall not prevent people from wanting to worship.

19:43

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Open Tours reported earlier this year that about three quarters of houses belonging to Christians in Gaza have been damaged or totally destroyed. Given that this is also true for people of all faiths in Gaza, Dr Shi except that support is not only incumbent from the Church of England but from the government and from all of us?

19:43

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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I thank the member for his question. He again raises a crucial point. It is not just for the church, everyone has a responsibility to support the efforts to bring about peace in that region. To bring about a ceasefire and also to ensure that we allow unimpeded access to aid to go in. As we all know, aid has been prevented into Gaza and we need to see a allowed in.

19:44

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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Question number three. managing its work programs and arises out of the English Devolution White Paper whilst still living periodic electoral reviews. They have agreed additional resources for this financial year. This will help to respond swiftly and effectively to any requests for assistance in relation to that development of the bounty arrangements for newly

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established authorities. I thank him for the response was

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I thank him for the response was the kind, interest as a central Bedfordshire Chancellor. The electoral arrangements provide

19:45

Blake Stephenson MP (Mid Bedfordshire, Conservative)

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electoral arrangements provide strong local representation throughout English devolution. The honourable Member sure this house that he will make sure that resources are made available so the commission will be sufficient to ensure representation is not sacrificed on the basis of arbitrary timelines with devolution?

19:45

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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The honourable member raises a good point. He has got some good inside information. Zero point million pounds has been allocated million pounds has been allocated but this is something that they will keep an eye on.

19:45

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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It is right that we have properly resourced boundary commissions. Has there been any conversations at the Electoral Commission or elsewhere about amalgamating the two commissions finding a pooling of resources in order to save taxpayers money?

19:45

Stephen Gethins MP (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, Scottish National Party)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The honourable lady raises, I'm not aware of those conversations at the moment but it is some thing I raised the commission on her behalf.

19:46

Q5. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church is taking to help increase interfaith cohesion. (904310)

Question five please.

19:46

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Thaci Mr Speaker. The church is a presence in every constituency across the country working alongside all fates. They have interfaith advisers who work closely with local faith leaders, local authorities and public bodies to foster better relations and understanding of different faith communities. Locally many churches take part in an annual interfaith peace walk and other events including in my constituency of Battersea.

19:46

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank my honourable Friend the work she is doing representing the Church Commissioners on this matter. Pilfered South is one of the most diverse constituencies in the country. In central Guildford we have a mosque, a church, and other religious buildings across the road. Our faith groups build immunity resilience and the best of humanity. Our faith groups are our bedrock. When my honourable Friend joined me in celebrating the diversity of our groups in Guildford south? Would she outline what conversations she has had with Church Commissioners on how the church is continuing to strengthen this interfaith work? strengthen this interfaith work?

19:47

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to congratulate the work of faith groups in his constituency. He demonstrates there are good examples of different faith organisations coming together. The Archdeacon of West Ham fools without local churches are closely engaged with the London boroughs faith forum and local clergy also work alongside local rabbis and imams to build those closer links. A local faith forum is hosting a walk of peace in my honourable friend Ilford South constituency on 1 June.

I hope you will be able to take part. will be able to take part.

19:48

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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Thaci Mr Speaker. The interfaith work up and down the country is vital to our local communities. Does the honourable Lady agree with me that leadership is important? And that if the Church of England were to follow the Roman Catholic Church and appoint its leader in days rather than months, it would give a great boost to interfaith work? great boost to interfaith work?

19:48

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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If only Mr Speaker. I do have the right colours on this morning for that. My goodness. The honourable gentleman makes a very important point about the importance of interfaith working. That really starts at all levels. We have our local clergy but also faith leaders and advisers working across all different fates to bring us together. I would save look at what happened last summer, it was a good example of seeing how interfaith leaders are working together.

19:49

Q6. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what progress the National Church Institutions have made on improving safeguarding. (904311)

Question six please. hold the church to account on this issue. As he knows, in February, the issue. As he knows, in February, the General Synod voted to adopt partial Independent Safeguarding Board that includes an external scrutiny body. includes an external scrutiny body. And a commitment to carry out further work to identify legal and further work to identify legal and practical challenges to move towards a fully Independent Safeguarding Board law. Board law.

19:49

Luke Myer MP (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Labour)

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Next month I will be meeting the Safeguarding Minister alongside my constituent and survivors of abuse and safeguarding failure within the church. I thank your for the work she has been doing to pushing for Independent Safeguarding Board's is. Will she continue to impress upon colleagues the need for full independence and the operations and the oversight we need?

19:49

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. It is very important that honourable members during my honourable friend continue to raise this issue and hold the church to account on this. What I will say is the church is undertaking detailed work to look towards seeking to go with a fully independent model. In the meantime, the church is getting on with setting up the external scrutiny model which is likely to be on a statutory basis in order to give it depth and may require legislation.

I have said on many occasions during church questions that it is so important church seeks to restore and rebuild trust. That really does begin by ensuring that we have a credible model of safeguarding.

19:50

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the Church Commissioner for the response. Churches should always only be a place to go for those who seek help, assistance, support, and comfort in times whenever things have happened which are completely against the very ideas of the Bible. When it comes to dealing with these heinous crimes, should be no excuses, no apologies, and those people who have been to court for allegations, and when the crimes are proven, the church first foundation is to God and the teachings of the Bible.

Those who carry out those crimes deserve absolutely no help within the church whatsoever. within the church whatsoever.

19:51

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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I thank my honourable friend for his question. He is actually right. Where any sort of crimes committed regardless of what institution it is in justice must be served.

19:51

Q7. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church Commissioners are taking to ensure value for money for leaseholders. (904313)

Question number seven.

19:52

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Question number seven.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The Church Commissioners property team regularly meets and engages with residents associations as part of their program of support for their their program of support for their tenant to ensure best value for money fully sold as.

19:52

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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money fully sold as. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the honourable member for the time she spent with me and my constituent of the Hyde Park Estate in terms of tackling some of the high service charges they are facing? Does she greet is vital the government continues to make progress in terms of the regulation of managing agents so that these high costs are clamped down on and there is more

19:52

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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And I thank my friend for all the work she is doing on this issue. I know it affects many issues across this house and it was a pleasure to meet with her and members from her residents Association. We all know that agents are behaving in ways that are not fit for purpose, so it is important and absolutely right that we need legislation to deal with these agents because things cannot continue in this current way. I thank her for all the work she is doing.

doing. At the Gen Synod, I called for a fully accessible model, and they committed to some detailed work which would ensure that they can work towards that sort of model. As I said, it is vital that the church seeks to rebuild trust. seeks to rebuild trust.

19:53

Wera Hobhouse MP (Bath, Liberal Democrat)

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I thank her for that offer. One of my constituents was a victim of abuse in the Church of England, and we must never forget that there are victims and survivors involved here, and they were dismayed when the church of England rejected a safeguard to deal with abuse cases. The church should not for behind campaign to other organisations when it comes to safeguarding, and she has given me her decision already, but will she continue to push for a fully independent body as that must be our goal.

be our goal.

19:54

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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Absolutely. It was disappointing for me as well because I was at that sin out that my preferred model of independence was not adopted. Oh it to those to make sure that the church works at pace towards a fully independent model for safeguarding. independent model for safeguarding.

19:54

Nick Smith MP (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, Labour)

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The House of Commons committee is always concerned to comply with the law. The policies and guidance at this house have been revealed. It doesn't appear that any immediate changes are required as a result of the judgement, however, we are keeping this under consideration. We will be looking at the guidance following its publication draft just two days ago.

19:55

John Lamont MP (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Conservative)

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Am grateful for this. We can and must uphold the rights, freedoms and spaces for women with sex-based rates, and I am concerned to hear that there are reports that House of Commons is not following human rights commissions guidance that biological men should not be allowed to use women's facilities. As the member agree with me the protection of female members is vital under the law as clarified by the Supreme Court ruling and must be followed immediately?

19:55

Nick Smith MP (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, Labour)

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I thank the honourable member for his question. Can I assure him that officials have reviewed the guidance and the policies of the house and considered that the commission is compliant with the law. But we will review the positions once the final

19:56

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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The forensic account published in 2023 revealed that it was linked with the African issue insignificant investment in the Southsea company and benefactors from members whose income may have arrived from slavery.

19:56

Rt Hon Diane Abbott MP (Hackney North and Stoke Newington, Labour)

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The member for Battersea will be aware that there is a lot of interest in the relationship between the church and the slave trade. Is she able to say over what period the church made profit from the slave trade? Is she able to specify the names of the companies it was invested in, even the names of the slave plantation? Issue able to quantify exactly how much money the church made over the period when it was involved in the slave trade, and is she able to say whether the church profits from the slave trade and is still part of the income today?

19:57

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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I thank the mother of the house for seven or eight questions in that one, so she will forgive me if I say I will probably write to those points, but I want to reiterate that the church received benefaction from those who benefited from enslavement and invested in Southsea company which was deeply linked with the slave trade and the Church Commissioners have been investigating its historic area since 2019, and it published a full and transparent report in January 2023.

I will be very happy to give this document to be shared with my right honourable friend the mother of the house, and this can also be placed if helpful, and I am also very happy to meet with her because she shows a key interest in this area.

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We let the Frontbench changeover.

19:58

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if she will make a statement on whether the Government will be accepting the School Teacher’s Review Body’s recommendations for 2025/26

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We let the Frontbench changeover.

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We come to the Urgent Question. I asked the Secretary of State if she will make a statement on whether

19:58

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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she will make a statement on whether the government will be accepting the schoolteacher review bodies pay recommendations for 2526.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. My taste out by thanking our teachers, out by thanking our teachers, leaders, and school staff for all leaders, and school staff for all they are doing right now to ensure a successful exam season for students and for all of their hard work throughout the year. Rather than throughout the year. Rather than scaremongering, we are fantasy statistics on the side of the house. statistics on the side of the house. We are getting on and delivering. We are already seeing positive signs that are planned for change is that are planned for change is working.

Teacher recruitment is up. 2000 more people in training than 2000 more people in training than last year. Teacher retention is up, thousands more teacher forecast to stay in the profession over the next stay in the profession over the next three years. This Labour government is getting on and delivering, and that is why, unlike the opposition who sat on the report hid from their response ability and left it the labour to sort out. This afternoon, we will announce the teacher's pay award which will be the earliest allowance and for a decade because we understand the importance of giving schools certainty, giving them time to plan their budgets and making sure they can recruit teachers that children need.

The Secretary of State in his statement will be coming out this afternoon, showing this Labour government once again is getting on. again is getting on.

20:00

Mr Speaker

Can I just say, you granted, so please wait so you can ask the question. I don't want you to be a bad example of this whole class.

20:01

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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Thank you. It is late before the house, and it will be coming out this afternoon, showing once again that this Labour government is delivering on our plan for change.

20:01

Rt Hon Laura Trott MP (Sevenoaks, Conservative)

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This is absolutely outrageous. It is astonishing that we have had to summon the government to the benches today and they cannot even tell us what the pay rises going to get and whether it will be funded. That is not allowing us to scrutinise this in this house. The government said they would tax private schools for more teachers, but the reality is that state schools haven't got any of that money. Instead of that, we have had broken promises on compensating schools for job tax, confirmation from DfE itself that there will be a shortfall in teachers pay funding that we are not allowed to discuss here today in this Urgent Question, and uncertainty as to what the pay raises for teachers.

It is a disgrace, and it is the opposite of what people who voted for labour expected. All of this in the final two weeks that Head Teachers up and down the country have to decide whether to take teachers redundant in times for September. Many schools will have already made difficult decision to let good teachers go. These are job losses on her watch due to her inability to provide schools with the clarity that they need. And please, don't take my word for it.

Dan Moynahan said they are proposing to oppose 40 to 45 teachers redundant. John Coles, he runs 90 academies of unfunded costs. He said it is no good the Treasury waving hands and saying efficiency. That will be 400 job losses. Sector wide, that would extrapolate to ruinous harm, tens of thousands of redundancies. Simon pink, he said it would be the toughest budget for a generation. And one secondary School Head Teacher had to cut teaching posts from to see in wage rises.

What is the pay rise of the government is recommending the teachers. The prime minister said that there will be no additional funding for pay. Yesterday, the government started a U-turn to fund the insurance ride and fully fund the pay increases, whatever they are.

20:03

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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Neither I nor any minister in this government will take lessons from the members opposite who, after 14 long years in power have still not created the level they inherited. The brass neck of the opposition is quite extraordinary. Members opposite will also do well to remember the difficult decisions that this government has had to take because of the atom mass they left behind. She was in the Treasury creating the mess. She knows very well what happened.

Recruiting expert teachers is central to our vision for high and rising standards, and yet despite the challenging financial context, years of missed recruitment targets under the previous government, this administration is prioritising education and ensuring every child has access to a high-quality teacher. We are working at pace to ensure excellence for every child, and that is why we do remain committed to our manifesto pledge for 6 1/2 thousand teachers and to ensure that it does respond to the demand in secondary schools, special schools, and in further education because we know that high quality teaching is the in-school factor that has the biggest positive impact on a child's outcomes, breaking down barriers to opportunities for every child, so recruiting and retaining those high-quality teachers is absolutely central to our vision for delivering high and rising standards.

That is why, despite the challenging financial context, years of missed recruitment targets, we are delivering with planned change, but she will have to wait for the statement that she knows is coming this afternoon. this afternoon.

20:06

Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)

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Teacher pay is absolutely vital for the status of the profession, for quality-of-life of teachers, and for recruitment and retention of the vital skills and qualified staff who are the backbone of our education system. It is really important that the government's response begins the work of restoring teacher pay after the last 14 years were we have seen a shocking erosion in teacher pay under the previous government which has had a devastating impact on teacher morale, and the benches opposite would take note of that, and we would all benefit from a little more humility in the context of the legacy that they left behind.

But can I emphasise to the Secretary of State today, and can I press her on the extent to which the pay award will be funded because we know that there are extensive pressures already on school budgets and schools are very anxious about that matter, and can I ask about support staff pay and whether the statement this afternoon will include that and begin the process of restoring that because we know how vital our support staff are in our schools as support staff are in our schools as

20:07

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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Can I thank the honourable lady for her thoughtful contribution. I do find it somewhat disconcerting that she is being barracked from members opposite when she performs a really important function for this house, and is very assiduous in holding the government to account. And rightly so that is her role. She quite rightly reflects upon the degradation of teachers pay over the last 14 years. Indeed, the first thing this government did was get the STRB recommendation from last year out of the drawer and actually process it, something that the last government just hid and quite frankly ran away from.

We implemented the 5.5% pay award. We absolutely recognise that this is a very important part of ensuring we have the high-quality teachers that we need. The starting salary for teachers is now at least £31,650 outside of London. At least £38,766 in inner London. We are making progress, we are seeing the green shoots of more teachers joining the profession, more teachers staying in the profession, and we will continue to support that trajectory in any way we can. She rightly draws on that really vital work in schools of support staff too.

The government's approach in respect of that will indeed be confirmed, as will all of the details that the honourable lady so keenly anticipates in the written Ministerial Statement this

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afternoon. Liberal Democrats Spokesperson.

20:09

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrats Spokesperson. Thank you Mr Speaker. Each and every week I hear from teachers and school leaders in my own constituency and across the country. In my time in this place, has the outlook been as gloomy as it is right now. After years of underfunding and neglect from the Conservatives, schools now face a double blow of underfunded National Insurance increases and unfunded teacher pay rises, if the reports are to be believed. Together these represent massive cuts to school budgets, frankly they expected better from Labour.

School governors in my constituency recently told me they are all setting deficit budgets. One described it as beyond imagining. That is why teachers are so desperately worried and so are parents because ultimately Mr Speaker it is our children who will suffer, and the most vulnerable at that. The government's claim that schools can find the money through efficiencies simply does not stack up. Budgets are already cut to the bone, with schools relying on Amazon wish list with parents the basics such as glue sticks.

They are cutting back subjects already, cancelling trips, cutting back on teaching assistants, which means children with SEND suffer the most. And now they are planning redundancies. Budget decisions for next year are already being made. We need urgent clarity if the pay rise will be funded. Will the Minister tell schools across the country what exactly, where exactly are they expected to find this money? expected to find this money?

20:11

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I thank the honourable lady. There was an awful lot of imagining in her statement and understandably so. Less understandably in terms of some of the contents of what she said but indeed the statement is due today. She will have to await it, as well all members of this house. And indeed those who I know are keenly looking at their schools budgets, and ensuring that they can provide the best education possible. I know that is what schools are focused on doing and rightly so.

We are focused on supporting them to do that. I would gently remind Honourable members opposite that this is the earliest STRB announcement in a decade. It is because we recognise how important budgeting is full schools, how important it is that they have this information in a timely way that was not respected under the previous government. We want to give this information in good time. The best time we can possibly do in terms of early notice.

So that they can plan their excellent outcomes for children that I know schools are striving for. We will also support schools to use their funding as efficiently as possible. The department has worked on a whole suite of productivity initiatives, support with schools, to manage energy costs, to manage banking costs. To minimise any expenditure that should be on the front line supporting children. That is what we will continue to do. is what we will continue to do.

20:12

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Just to reiterate what my honourable friend the chair of the select committee said, teaching assistants are the glue that keep our classrooms together they should be paid adequately. I really am pleased to hear that the state of retention is up to 2000 more teachers in training. As a former teacher myself I understand that workload is often cited as a reason that we don't retain teachers who are stuck in planning admin and data entry, all of these activities keeping teachers away from spreading time with their students.

Can the Minister update us on what work the department is doing on AI and the roll-out of AI in our classrooms to reduce teacher workload and get them in front of students?

20:13

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I do welcome the constructive nature of the honourable gentleman's question. Regardless of any announcement this afternoon we know that schools are working hard to deliver for children. We know that as a government we need to work our hardest, and we are, to support them to do so. That means a whole range of productivity that will support teachers with their workloads, support schools with their costs, making sure that we do drag the opportunity of technological developments. To ensure that any teacher time is maximised with children in the classroom, helping them with their learning, and indeed being supported with technology to maximise the outcome for children.

So we will continue to work. We are very much looking forward, and unfortunately, the benches opposite just seem to constantly be looking back.

20:14

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I think for the government to come here today saying in full knowledge of what the pay rise intentions are, and to refuse to say so until this afternoon to avoid scrutiny is this respectful to this House, every member, every constituent, every teacher. If I may say so, it is somewhat cowardly. Schools across my constituency find themselves short of money to cover National Insurance bills. Five schools in my constituency have approached me.

£126,000 short between them. Does the Minister know how many schools are short of money to pay the National Insurance bill?

20:15

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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On the initial comments, there are processes and procedures in this house we respect. And we respect this house. And we will continue to do so. And there is a process by which the statement and these announcements will be made, and she will have to wait alongside everybody for the process that we adhered to in this house to be administered. On her second question, our funding system, and she should know this, is not designed so that every school and college receives funding which necessarily fully matches their necessarily fully matches their precise spending.

Including NIC costs, it varies from institution to institution. Because of the decisions that each school makes on its staffing. So we are providing schools and high needs settings with over £930 million in the financial support in 2025/26, to support them with increased National Insurance costs. That is in addition to the £2.3 billion increase to cause school funding that was announced at the Autumn Budget in 2024. This means that the core schools budget which includes the core revenue funding for schools and high needs will total over £68.4 billion in 2025/26.

We will continue to support schools to spend that money in the most effective and productive way possible to maximise outcomes for children. This is our priority.

20:16

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I spent most of the last government's time in office scrutinising public spending, and grew weary of promises of pay or other impacts of government decisions not match budgets in schools. I would hope that this government would be very honest about the challenges with things like national insurance and pay increases, about the impact on school budgets, and not have the headline on one not balanced funding on the other. Could she make sure she is leaning into the issue of forward rolls in London schools where the pay rise deserved by teachers is a double whammy because those school roles are falling and therefore their income is much therefore their income is much lower.

This has an impact on staff decisions.

20:17

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I thank the right honourable lady for her question and for the work that she has done in this House over many years, scrutinising government budgets and holding governments to account. We have the highest respect for schools, for school leaders, for the teachers and the support staff that work within schools. We recognise the challenges that are faced across the public sector, in making sure that every public penny that is spent is spent in the most efficient way possible.

But also maximises the public benefit as far as possible. We are working incredibly hard in the department, as I know we are across government, to get maximum output from public money that quite frankly, the public sector was quite frankly neglected by the previous government over 14 years. We are picking up the pieces of that but we will continue to work hard to do so. hard to do so.

20:18

Rt Hon Sir Oliver Dowden MP (Hertsmere, Conservative)

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Mr Speaker, I do have some sympathy for the honourable Lady, who I have a great deal of respect for. But surely she must feel embarrassed, coming before this House knowing all the answers to these questions and not giving them simply because Number 10 won't let her. In my constituency, schools are already facing a double whammy from not fully funded increase in costs in National Insurance rise, and the pressure on places. If this teachers pay settlement is not funded in full, surely she would admit this amounts to a cut? Whenever this happened when we were in government, the first thing they would say would be, are you matching it with funding? If not, they would scream for blue murder that it amounts to a cut.

Would she just admit that if it is not funded it is a cut to schools?

20:19

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The right honourable gentleman is rather getting ahead of himself. What I will say to his question, because he was in the last government, and we were left with an appalling inheritance. And we are taking tough decisions to fix the foundations, to bring back stability because education is a priority for this government. That is why we are rebuilding the crumbling schools that they left. Fiction, public schools, I will speak to that schools are dealing with the consequences was not rolling out free breakfast clubs, opening up school-based nurseries, and yes, riding money to give every child the best start in life to high quality early years and family services that the previous government promised with no money to deliver.

So while the benches opposite continue to try and work out what they think, we are getting on with delivering real positive change in our country.

20:20

James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. As my honourable friend says, inherited recruitment and retention crisis within the teaching industry. I think that data shows that one in three teachers leaves within five years, and around one in three head teachers also no longer continues as a head within five years. That is the situation we have inherited not created. Can I ask the Minister, what is she doing to turn the tide what is she doing to turn the tide on that recruitment and retention crisis?

20:21

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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We did inherit a dire situation, with children not being taught by the experts teachers that they should. And with teachers stretched to the limit, which is why the first thing we did was reset that relationship between government and schools which, for years, had been some sort of combat. We want to work with schools. We recognise how hard schools are working to deliver for children. We want to work with them to ensure that we can support in any way we can as a government.

That means having high quality teachers. It means having good quality teacher training. It means supporting teachers to meet the needs of children with special educational needs and disabilities. And supporting every teacher to be trained in order to do so. It means maximising every pound to go to the frontline, to the children, by reducing other costs within schools. And we will continue to work with schools to do that, so that we can ensure that every child has the expert teacher that they deserve.

And will not be let down any more like they have been for the last 14 years. years.

20:22

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I think we would all agree that education is the best investment that any government can make, raising people out of poverty, improving social mobility, and health outcomes. Sadly not a priority with the last government, and I welcome the change in tone from the new government. Though I think it has taken the breakfast club to fix it. In Devon, the head teachers Association says we are on our knees. Primary schools are consolidating classes because they having to cut spending.

One secondary school in my patch is going to have to pay £95,000 extra every 1% rise in pay if it is not funded. So if the pay award is not fully funded, can the Minister expect to be exactly where schools expect to be exactly where schools

20:23

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The honourable lady, understandably so, despite the statement due imminently, is getting ahead of herself. She is, we are doing an awful lot more than breakfast clubs. I have listed just some of what we are doing, but we are working incredibly hard across- the-board. And I think that schools will work very hard to make sure that their budget maximises outcomes for children and we will support them to do that, this means that the Department steps up.

It suggests help, making sure that people get the best value out of the purchasing they make. It means supporting them with maintenance and management within schools. It means supporting with energy costs. It is a big expenditure for schools, and the department can support with good contracts that get much better value for money. Similarly on bank king, we can save a significant amount of money saving products that are available to do so, and to use the tools that are available to see how they are doing and what other schools are doing well also.

We will continue to support schools to maximise.

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Order. Can I just say, it is like

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Order. Can I just say, it is like I am in a second statement. The answers are getting longer and longer and I've got to get through longer and I've got to get through this. It is important that we answer these quickly. I have a good example

20:24

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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of reef. There is some learning glass on the benches opposite because they were late in submitting evidence for seven years in a row, causing chaos seven years in a row, causing chaos in schools and budgets. They release this through written statements to this house, and they shamefully this house, and they shamefully scrapped the school support staff negotiating body. Does she agree that protestations will come across to teachers as false and

20:25

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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to teachers as false and hypocritical because they are. well.

20:25

Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)

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One of the things we should be proudest of an England is the success of English schools over the last 10 or 14 years. The difference in outcome has been really striking, demonstrating the brilliance of teachers across the United Kingdom sure that the different systems that enable those in England to flourish. While I do welcome the fact that she is bringing the statement early and I appreciate the work that the government has done, I do share with my right honourable friend the frustration that she must appreciate from when she was sitting on these benches only a few months ago, and no doubt will be in a few years time.

But the reality is that it is very difficult to be able to represent those who sent us here if we are not giving information. I was sent a letter where I was told that schools in West Kent in my area will have to make redundancies or choices based on the unfunded pledges that have already been given. Will she make the commitment that the next make the commitment that the next pledges will be funded. pledges will be funded.

20:26

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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It was a very long statement. It managed to almost entirely look backwards while fantasising about the future. He will receive the information as well everybody else when the statement is published at the announced time this afternoon. the announced time this afternoon.

20:27

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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I declare an interest as a primary school governor up until the election, and also, as the chair for schools. It is quite shocking really to hear from the opposition benches protestations about school funding given the absolute dire state they left school funding in after 14 years of Conservative government. When I speak to school leaders, they do tell you of the real and lasting struggles they have had to balance their budget, so I understand that the Minister can't speak today about the outcome of the review into the statement, but I wonder if she can give us more information broadly about conversations she has had as part of the spending review so we can get the funding we need to invest in schools and turnaround the dire state that we inherited.

20:28

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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Can I take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to school governors? He mentioned he had been a governor up until the election and we really are grateful for everything they do to make sure schools are as good as they can be, and we will always work with them to support improving outcomes for children and we will do everything we can as a department within the incredibly tight fiscal constraints that we have inherited as a government.

We are committed to our public services that we know will transform the lives of children and everybody in this country, and we will continue to do that.

20:28

Marie Goldman MP (Chelmsford, Liberal Democrat)

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The Minister in her response from Twickenham referred to imaginings but I don't think it is imaginings to suggest the Secretary of State in her response said that some efficiency savings would have to be found in schools to meet the additional costs. Earlier on this week, I met with a roundtable from week, I met with a roundtable from my constituency and beyond. We talked about fantasising about the future. She telling me that those Head Teachers fantasising what the future when they told me they are having to make cuts already staffing numbers, and one Head Teacher told me one or two things more need to go wrong and they are the bigger collapse.

Issue saying that they are fantasising about the future?

20:29

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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No.

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The Minister said no and sat down. Had you not finished?

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down. Had you not finished? No. We recognise how important it is for schools to plan their is for schools to plan their budgets. They are keenly awaiting the announcement this afternoon. That is why we have made the That is why we have made the announcement as quickly as possible and much quicker than any point over and much quicker than any point over the next 10 years, we will continue to work with schools to help them deliver for the children in their

20:30

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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deliver for the children in their care and that we know that is their priority and it is our priority as well.

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For 14 years, I saw my profession treated like dirt, underpaid, undervalued, and undermined at every undervalued, and undermined at every turn. With the secretary of state agree with me that we would be agree with me that we would be better to pay our teachers fairly? We should be treating them with respect and the only decent thing we

20:30

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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respect and the only decent thing we did was reformed to these benches.

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The honourable gentleman remarks on his service as a teacher and it is incredibly valued and I think the one message we want to send to the one message we want to send to the school system is the extent to which we do value teachers. We value Head we do value teachers. We value Head Teachers that support their schools

20:31

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Teachers that support their schools to thrive. We support the staff that are the beating heart in every community, and we will continue to

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do so. Every efficiencies they have made

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Every efficiencies they have made have already been made, and therefore, the results of what the therefore, the results of what the Minister is announcing. National insurances underfunding, and this increase in teacher pay can only increase in teacher pay can only mean that teacher numbers are cut, and as the father of a primary and as the father of a primary schoolteacher who works really hard and is absolutely committed, that and is absolutely committed, that impacts on me personally, and it will impact on every child and every will impact on every child and every parent in my constituency.

That the reality, and shouldn't the reality, and shouldn't the government be upfront and admit that this will mean that teachers will lose their jobs?

20:32

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The gentleman will have to wait for the statement this afternoon to know the details of what the government is proposing, but he really should have more awareness of the situation that teachers and schools and our entire public sector have faced over the last 14 years. We are working to continue them in at the mess and we will continue to do so.

20:32

Mr Bayo Alaba MP (Southend East and Rochford, Labour)

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I am a school governor. I spent

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I am a school governor. I spent many many months of the meeting and governors and stakeholders within the community, so I welcome the government's announcement of government's announcement of additional teachers. Can the Minister tell us how the government is turning the tide in the crisis of

20:33

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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is turning the tide in the crisis of teaching recruitment which we know reached unprecedented levels over

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the last decade. I think the honourable gentleman.

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I think the honourable gentleman. This is a key priority for us, making sure that we have the teaching workforce that we know children deserve, but also, that we know teachers deserve. They deserve to have a full fleet of teachers to have a full fleet of teachers teaching the specialist subjects that they love and they are committed to and trained to teach. We also know it is key to unlocking the outcomes for children to have good qualified teachers in every classroom, and that is what we are legislating to achieve as well, and legislating to achieve as well, and we also know it is key for children who have additional learning needs or disabilities to make sure that or disabilities to make sure that every teacher is a teacher of special educational needs so that more children can be educated in their local school with their peers,

20:34

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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their local school with their peers, getting outcomes that they deserve.

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I was a school governor for 13 years and served as a finance governor so I know these issues well, and I want to draw the attention to the plight of small rural primary schools. There are rural primary schools. There are many in my constituency and they are really up against it and the costs really up against it and the costs they have to face. 86% of the budget in the school that I served with spent on staffing. So seeing a significant increase in that staffing whether through national funding has a huge impact.

The

20:34

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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funding has a huge impact. The Minister agree to meet with me on per capita funding so that primary

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schools in small rural areas are not so seriously disadvantaged? And I thank him for his thoughtful question and his years of thoughtful question and his years of service as a governor? I can't service as a governor? I can't reiterate any more how much we value the work that governors do in schools and we need more people to schools and we need more people to step up and have the rewarding opportunity to support schools in that capacity. He rightly raises that capacity.

He rightly raises challenges that we know are across schools, which is why the school schools, which is why the school funding isn't uniform across schools. It varies according to schools. It varies according to circumstances, and we are looking at the funding formula to make sure that it does allocate that resource where it is most needed, where it

20:35

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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where it is most needed, where it can give the greatest outcome and the greatest benefit. Rather than synthetic outrage by

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Rather than synthetic outrage by the former chief secretary to the Treasury who resided in a government which brought cuts to schools, which brought cuts to schools, I really do welcome the fact that this government is serious about addressing the regression teachers faced in their pay but also support staff pushed onto Minimum Wage Act. I trust that there will be sufficiency in funding for schools, but will she also get a grip of Chief Executive pay which is escalating and figures while they have got three figure salaries, six-figure salaries, so it is important that they are not taking more out of the funds which needs to be invested in those children's education.

20:36

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The honourable lady speaks with great insight. I know she cares passionately about these issues of maximising children, and I know that every school leader will want to ensure that every decisions they make on pay at any level within a school, but particularly at the senior level, that they will be prioritising the children and the outcomes for them in any of those decisions that they make.

20:36

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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Schools in my constituency are telling me they are struggling with pressure being put on staffing budgets. Not only bone increases but exacerbated by the appallingly slow approval rates of DHCP. What is the Minister doing to look at that strain on costs and make sure schools are resourced at the right level of staff to allow children to get the best education to all children rather than forcing savings children rather than forcing savings would make the job even harder and possibly put children at risk.

20:37

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The gentleman raises a really important point and has done so very thoughtfully and constructively because we recognise that whilst there is synthetic outrage from some parts of the benches opposite, we recognise that schools are grappling with ensuring the greatest outcomes for their budget and that is a challenge that they rise to year- on-year and a challenge that we will continue to set because we won't shy away from ensuring that every public penny spent delivers on the frontline for children, delivers for businesses and we have them in the right capacity within school and that they have training to support children with special educational needs.

We are determined that more children get that education with peers but we recognise that schools need support to deliver that and we

20:38

Luke Myer MP (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I was pretty surprised by the tone the opposition struck, I will never forget doing my PGC and finding one of my professional mentors, a teacher for years, crying at her teacher for years, crying at her desk because of the pressures that they put her and teachers under. they put her and teachers under. Isn't it the case they left out teachers overstretched and undervalued and this is a government that is taking a different approach? that is taking a different approach?

20:38

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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I could not put it better myself. Minister has admitted that not all schools will be fully funded but blame that on choices schools are made about their staff. Does the Minister accept that schools cannot fully control the profile of their staff? That in some cases, as in a letter I have written to the Minister, schools make choices to pay people in the higher band because of the increasingly high level of needs that they are expected to support.

Will she meet with me to discuss how she will protect those schools that have particularly high staffing budgets from having to make excessive cuts?

20:39

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I'm not really sure about the premise of the honourable ladies question. Or what she thinks may or may not have been said head of a written Ministerial Statement that is due to be published at 1 PM today. What I have made clear is that schools are not funded in a uniform manner but are funded according to a whole range of requirements that they may have within their school population, and within their local area. It is a complex formula, and it is intended to ensure fairness across the school funding system.

Indeed, we are looking at it to ensure it is as fair as it can be. But it is not without its complexities, and we are taking the time to get that right. We will continue to do so because we recognise that schools do need the autonomy to decide how they spend their budget, how they best deploy their resources, how they best maximise the outcomes for children from the resources that are allocated either by the government, but we do recognise they need support to do that as well.

We will continue to ensure that they have the tools available to maximise the outcomes for children. outcomes for children.

20:40

Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. May I declare my interest as a very proud father of Rosie, a foundation stage teacher. This government showed what Labour is about when it came in immediately awarded an above inflation 5.5% pay rise to start to claw back the demeaning and disrespectful public sector cuts of around 20% in real terms delivered by the Tories. The submission of 2.8% is below the current rate of inflation, it is not funded through additional finance.

It has been reported that schoolteachers Pay Review Body is recommending close to 4%. Will the government commit to a long-term plan of restoring teacher pay in real terms and address the recruitment and retention crisis in education?

20:41

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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He tempts me down all sorts of parts of anticipating the statement that is due later. But he quite rightly recognises the importance of ensuring that teachers are recognised, our values, are rewarded. But we do have sufficient teachers, that we have an attractive profession. That bright people like Rosie want to join, wants to contribute to, and we will continue to work to deliver that for the children in schools in this country.

20:42

Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)

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One of the biggest drivers of satisfaction of any profession is where the settlement meets inflation and expectations of inflation. What assurance Can the minister give the house on whether the settlement that is announced later today will take account of the vastly higher inflation than would have been anticipated when this settlement was actually resolved?

20:42

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I'm afraid that member will have to wait for the statement this afternoon. I appreciate it is keenly anticipated but we are committed to ensuring schools can deliver for children. That is our top priority. children. That is our top priority.

20:42

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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I'm proud to declare an interest that I am the son of a teacher. I know that while the Tories often waxed lyrical about how business adds value to our economy, which of course it does, they often omit to say that it is our teachers who educate those who go on to work in business. And they add huge value, and it should be the most esteemed of professions. Can the Minister explain how Labour is overturning the teacher recruitment and retention crisis that we inherited from the party opposite?

20:43

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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He is absolutely right to identify that we inherited a crisis. We inherited a teaching profession in crisis. We immediately, on entering government, instituted the 5.5% pay award. We continue to support teachers to manage, for schools to find ways to support teachers in managing workload and managing well-being, in making teaching the attractive profession it should be. As he rightly points out, it is the springboard to so many bright futures for children. We want to ensure that is for every child, excellence for every child not to some children as we have seen in the last 14 years.

20:44

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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At education questions I raised concerns from head teachers in Basildon about funding and questions from school supports already been told they're being made redundant because of the national insurance jobs tax. Can the minister explain to them and to me by this government has gone back on its promise to ensure that all costs of the jobs tax will be covered by this government?

20:44

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The government, as I have already set out, has given a significant settlement in recognition of the national insurance cost. We will continue to work with schools to ensure that they can deliver for children in their areas, and we will continue to listen to the sector as well, to ensure that we work in partnership to deliver for children. A partnership that was sadly lacking in the last 14 years. He was very much part of a government that delivered on the desperate situation that we have found schools and teachers to be in, and one that we are working very hard to turn around.

around.

20:45

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Over the last six months I visited most of the schools in my constituency. The message I am getting loud and clear is that they are on the brink. Especially over SEND provision which threatens to stop progress in education standards. I ask the government to be honest about the real state of funding, we don't make things that are not fully funded, it applies to existing services such as SEND provision. I do hold the new government to a higher standard and I ask her to be completely honest about the real state of affairs.

about the real state of affairs.

20:45

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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I thank the honourable gentleman. And recognise the challenges that he sees within the school system. We did without doubt inherit a SEND crisis was not it was described by the previous Secretary of State for Education as lose, lose, lose. And she was not wrong. We are working at pace to fix it. We recognise that schools are grappling with many challenges and we will continue to support them to do it. We know that is how we deliver for the children

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in this country which is what we are committed to do. The honourable member has just walked right across. I can't believe

20:46

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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walked right across. I can't believe that. Please. We are not going to have an argument. I hope that you

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would respect the rules better. Thank you Mr Speaker. I'm full evaporation of all the hard-working teachers across the constituency, and indeed across the whole country. and indeed across the whole country. My sister-in-law is a secondary school English teacher. But I have no doubt that every single teacher no doubt that every single teacher and Head Teacher, either watching this live or washing about later, their jaws will have been on the their jaws will have been on the floor to hear the Minister say that she wants to give them time to plan but won't tell them what funding but won't tell them what funding settlement they are actually to get settlement they are actually to get to pay for it.

It is inconceivable that she does not know the answer to that she does not know the answer to the questions for statements to be published at 1 PM. So perhaps she published at 1 PM. So perhaps she can answer. Is it, as my right honourable friend says, that Number 10 has told her not to? Or perhaps better still, is it because the better still, is it because the department is in a live negotiation, or some might say row, with the Treasury to try and get that settlement for our teachers? settlement for our teachers?

20:47

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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What a ridiculous question. He should have more respect for the work that teachers do and more acknowledgement of the fact that we are delivering the planning time for schools in terms of their budgeting way above anything his government delivered in the last 10 years.

20:48

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The Minister many in the chamber have mentioned the teaching support staff. They make up half of the school workforce yet have no statutory pay bodies to represent them. And many supports laugh I left without a voice in discussions about the pay and terms of working conditions. I hear this time and time again. Will the Minister give assurances that school supports offer get a fair deal in this written Ministerial Statement?

20:48

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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He is right that the pay negotiations for support staff are as part of the National joint Council for local government services. We recognise the challenge that he also identifies which is why we have legislated for that School Support Staff Negotiating Body to be re-established. Which the last government abolished. To ensure that support staff to have that strong voice as part of these conversations because we recognise that strong role that they have within our schools.

20:49

Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)

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Can I take the opportunity to raise concerns about our further education college teachers because there is a real shortage of skilled workers in this country. One of the reasons as we have in undervaluing and underinvestment of our teachers. In fact they are paid £1000 less than their peers, no wonder 50% of them leave in the first three years of employment. Does the Minister understand the vital role of our FE teachers and will they be in the government plans for a better future?

20:49

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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We actually recognise the vital role that all of those who work with those aged 16 to 19, and that is in a school setting, in a college, in an FE setting. To ensure that they are respected and valued, and really do provide that springboard for young people, did the people of all ages as well, to launch into their future careers. We will continue to recognise and support the sector.

20:50

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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The Minister mentioned the maintenance contracts, and DfE support for them. Schools have seen steep increases in the costs of sustaining themselves will top one school leader in Devon who I spoke with said the costs of maintaining grounds, bins, toilets by 69% in the last four years. Given that schools budgets have barely grown in that period, does the Minister expect that staff pay rises will come out of existing school budgets? of existing school budgets?

20:50

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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The honourable gentleman again tempts me into issues that may well be addressed in the statement that is due very shortly. He also recognises that schools have a whole range of costs to manage. As a department, we absolutely want to maximise every penny that schools have. To minimise those outlays that may not be reaching the children or indeed the frontline and those that work with the children we will continue to do that. There's a whole range of tools available at the department and we really encourage schools to use the tools that are available to manage their budgets and support smart accounting in any way they can to maximise the impact that they can have for the children in the schools.

20:51

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Minister very much for her answers to the UQ this morning was the no one can doubt her commitment and to keep the schools working and help teachers. Having come through a period of teachers strike action in Northern Ireland, and no school inspections and class premises altered, there is a need to re- engage with teachers will stop the Minister knows what that engaging the teachers at all stages is essential.

How will the Minister ensure that the spirit of cooperation and the practice for in-depth education which we all hope will be reciprocated by unions and senior leadership teams within all of the schools?

20:52

Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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Noble gentleman is indeed always helpful and thoughtful as core divisions. As a department, we inherited a school system that was in crisis. School buildings crumbling, teachers leaving in their droves, children are not getting the start in life that they deserve. So we are working along a number of fronts, but we recognise that these are not outcomes the government can deliver. We need to deliver them in partnership with schools, with teachers, with those that represent them.

And we speak and work regularly right across the board to maximise the outcomes for children.

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I know he shares our determination to see across the country. That completes the Urgent

20:53

Points of Order

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That completes the Urgent Earlier in the session, and I'm

20:53

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Earlier in the session, and I'm sure it was of rubble for, the sure it was of rubble for, the Minister said it had gone below 2010 levels but spending per pupil has returned to and exceeded the previous high point of 2010. How can we improve the record when mistakes are made?

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I think you have corrected the record. The Minister can go back, if record. The Minister can go back, if record. The Minister can go back, if We come to the Statement. Lord

20:54

Ministerial statement: Independent Sentencing Review

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Chancellor. With your permission, Mr Speaker,

20:54

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on sentencing in England and Wales. The House will be aware that the independent sentencing review was released today. The panel comprised experts including a former Lord Chief Justice and representatives from the police, prisons, patient, victims rights organisations. The government is grateful for the recommendations and they will ensure there is a copy in the library of orthoses. I will set out response in principle to Deb at first it is essential we put the review in the proper context.

One year ago today, the party opposite called an election. They did so because prisons were about to collapse and rather than confront the field they chose to hide it and try to hoodwink the public into re-electing them. -- Confront the failure. Prisons are running out of space and it is vital implications are understood. If prisons collapse, courts are forced to suspend trials, police are forced to hold the rest, frame goes unpunished, terminals run amok and chaos reigns.

We face the breakdown of law and order. It is shameful we are confronted by the crisis once more. The reasons are clear. The last government added just 500 places to the prison estate and at the same time sentences increased and the prison population is now rising by 3000 each year. We are heading back towards zero capacity. It falls to this government to end this cycle of crisis and it starts by building prisons. Since taking office, we have opened 2400 places.

Last week, I announced an additional £4.7 billion for prison building, putting us on track to hit 14,000 by 2031, the largest expansion since the Victorian era. This is necessary but not sufficient and we cannot build our way out of the crisis. Despite building as quickly as we can, demand for places will outstrip supply by 9500 in early 2020 and that is why I have commissioned the sentencing review. -- Early 2028. This country must never run out of prison places again.

There must always be dangerous offenders. At the same time the review was tasked with -- always be space for Cutting crime, prisons are breathing grows of it. The reviewers have followed the evidence that the examples of countries around the world and I have an initial response today and more legislation will follow. I start with the central recommendation. The move to a 3-part recommendation. The move to a 3-part sentence called the Errant -- Earned Progression Model.

The release date for a prisoner will now be based on their behaviour. If they follow the rules, they will get an early release and if not they will be locked up for longer. This echoes the model from Texas I witnessed earlier in the year which cut crime and brought the prison population under control. There is an automatic release of 40-50% to earn release and the earliest possible release will be one third with additional days added for bad behaviour. The review suggests a new maximum of 50% but for those who behave excessively badly, there will be no upper limit.

For those currently serving standard determinant sentences with the release point of 67%, the earliest release will be 50% and for those who behave excessively badly, there will be no upper limit. The independent review also suggested that those serving extended services should early release but we will not accept this. Judges give extended services to those considered dangerous with no patrol heaving until two thirds of times. I will not change that. No one serving for terror offences will be eligible for early those.

The second part of the progression model, there will be a period of intensive supervision which will see more offenders tagged and close management and the government will significantly increase the funding. By the final year of the spending review, and angle £1.6 billion will rise by up to £700 million loving us to tag and monitor tens of thousands more offenders. If offenders do not comply with the conditions of And we have agreed in principle but the precise details will be set out.

Offenders could still be recalled if a new offence is committed and more serious offenders continue to be subject to strict conditions. The review introduces a reduction in the short sentences and the compelling case has been proposed many times. In the most recent data, many reoffended within one year and reoffending rates for community punishment are consistently lower and we must ask ourselves if alternative forms of punishment will make the public sector. It's important to note the review

This debate has concluded

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