Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government if she will make a statement on the ongoing disruption to waste collection and subsequent deployment of the military in Birmingham

continue to address and invest in the turnaround program which has shown that young people who are engaged in it have only 5% chance of

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reoffending. That completes questions. We will

15:41

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Let Let us Let us come Let us come to Let us come to the Let us come to the Urgent Let us come to the Urgent Question. Kevin Hollinrake.

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Mr Speaker thank you for granting this Urgent Question which is to ask the Secretary of State for housing the Secretary of State for housing communities and local government she will make a statement on the disruption to waste collection and the deployment of the military in Birmingham.

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Birmingham. Thank you, before I start my first of all start by recognising the significant contribution of Pope Francis on his passing. And also as the Minister for local government in the Minister for local government in England and I wish everyone a happy St George's Day 40. Members across the house will be aware of the continuing disruption caused by industrial action in Birmingham. The government has repeatedly called for Unite to call off the strike and attempt a fair deal. The commissioners and the council are undertaking necessary reforms in the context of a challenging financial situation.

The legacy of equal pay, where women workers systematically paid less than their male counterparts. The roles, and of course the council must chart the course themselves. Our actions speak to our determination for the welfare citizens of Birmingham. We have been provided intensive support to the council in an effort to address the backlog of waste that has been building up on the streets. Significant progress has been made in the last fortnight. Through a concerted effort, and with the assistance of other councils operators, and the endeavour of many hundreds of determined workers who have worked extremely long hours, the result is 26,000 tons of excess waste has been removed and the levels are now back to normal.

More than 100 bin trucks throughout every day and regular bin collections of resume. The council continues to monitor the situation closely to ensure that waste does not build up again. This is a government that stands up for working people. The industrial action is in no one's interests. Because the deal on the table is a good deal. The council has worked hard to offer routes to maintain pay to transferring workers to comparable roles, and to up skill those workers in scope. Talks are so important.

As we made clear important. As we made clear repeatedly, Unite should suspend the strike and accept the deal and they should bring this dispute to an end. The government will continue to be The government will continue to be on that side of the people in Birmingham. And to support the council in creating a sustainable, fair, and reliable waste service that the residents deserve.

15:44

Kevin Hollinrake MP (Thirsk and Malton, Conservative)

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Thaci Mr Speaker. It is astounding, the Secretary of State having had to resort to calling in the army to cover her blushes for her failure to resolve this situation, was not intending to make an oral statement to the house. And had to be dragged before it by means of this Urgent Question. She is failing, failing to stand up to the unions. Failing to protect the residents of the U.K.'s second city. Failing to protect the reputation of our nation.

And now resorting to being bailed out by our brave armed forces which I note the Minister did not even mention. It is a national embarrassment. I realise the Minister and the Secretary of State were not born until 1980 but many in this house and in the wider country remember the 1970s very well. The winter of discontent. It is clear with this government we risk going back to those days. To prevent that from happening, I offer him an the Secretary of State our support, the Minister will clarify and confirm, what is the projected cost to the taxpayer for the involvement of the military? Will he rule out the humiliation of service personnel ever having to collect refuse? Will he commit to using the provisions of the minimum service level at to ensure residents receive a basic level of service? To reinstate the

15:45

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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legislation that would allow the can

15:45

Kevin Hollinrake MP (Thirsk and Malton, Conservative)

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legislation that would allow the can cancel to commission agency workers to clean up the city into the strike as result. And finally to abandon the provisions Employment Rights

15:45

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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the provisions Employment Rights Bill give unions access to every single workplace in this country, they lower the threshold for union recognition and make it much easier recognition and make it much easier for unions to call strikes. Doing this now, and he will have our support, but if he and she ducked the tough decisions to please the the tough decisions to please the union paymasters, the tale may once again wag the dog in this country which could take it back to the

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If that is the dog, it is more of a pure attack on the government a pure attack on the government because it did not work at all. In the context of a situation which was not acceptable, when rubbish was not collected, the people wanted it to be resolved. This is a government be resolved. This is a government that does not play party politics with councils in the with the with councils in the with the previous government did. We work together in partnership for the end that is important.

They have been harping from the sidelines for weeks but have not had a single solution. Every criticism, no solutions. You would be forgiven for thinking you had not been in power for 14 years. Of course, we are appreciative of our colleagues in the MoD for the support they have offered Andy three logistics advisers have made a difference they themselves have said Birmingham is more than capable of making sure it is collected and the trucks are on the road as of this

15:47

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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week. I must pull him up on the comment he made when he talked about the humiliation of collecting waste the humiliation of collecting waste from the streets, the humiliation of decent working class people providing a public service to providing a public service to millions of people across England is not the humiliation. It is a public not the humiliation. It is a public service and one that is critical to our nation's interest and to say it our nation's interest and to say it is a job of humiliation? I would say is a job of humiliation? I would say bin collectors across the country take pride in their work and deserve more respect from the Opposition.

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I associate with the remarks by the Minister on Pope Francis. May the Minister on Pope Francis. May the Minister on Pope Francis. May has perfect soul rest in peace. It is important to remember the innocent residents caught up in the dispute and the fact they have been dispute and the fact they have been suffering. I think about the families who had to celebrate Eid families who had to celebrate Eid and see the rubbish piling up. There

15:48

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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will be another half term with many families affected and it is important the government continues to work with them to make sure this is resolved. Councils of all prodigal parties have based these problems in the last few years and the Minister will now they have handed out exceptional financial support for a number of councils who continue to face challenges with finances. Can the Minister assure the House that we will continue to support hard-working local government officers and make sure finances are back in a fit condition and we are not facing situations like what we are seeing in Birmingham? The, I thank the chair of the Select Committee for the question.

It hits at the heart of the fragile situation we inherited as a government. Birmingham and many councils have been sent to the wall by the previous government. That was testament to the number of bankruptcy notices which were issued. We have been able to stabilise the sector through the

15:49

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Recovery Grant, which is the first time it was ever issued in time it was ever issued in Birmingham was the largest recipient. We have given the city the support it needs but it's the support it needs but it's important to ensure the progress we have seen in the last couple of weeks is maintained. I completely appreciate the unacceptable scenes when the waste was built up in the streets. It is not OK in normal term streets. It is not OK in normal term and certainly not in half term when children were playing in the streets and that is why we move quickly to make sure the waste was removed.

The fact that 26,000 tonnes has been removed shows the dedication of the workers involved.

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I refer you to my declarations of interest. It's unacceptable this interest. It's unacceptable this dispute has dragged into its ninth week and even more that the people week and even more that the people of Birmingham are forced to clean up of Birmingham are forced to clean up Those who picked up rubbish for their neighbours, thank you. Let's be honest, you should never have had

15:51

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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to do it. This goes beyond Birmingham. It starts with bankrupted councils. What is to stop this from happening again? As a councils marriage, staff will sit side-by-side doing this job. It is unjust, unsustainable, a ticking timebomb. Six years after the reorganisation, this is still going on. We could not afford to meet everyone's expectations and neither can most councils as they teeter on the edge. What is the Minister doing to prevent this from spiralling elsewhere? Is she protecting increases?

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Birmingham is not affected by the

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Birmingham is not affected by the reorganisation we are looking at the transfer of the workforce and negotiations are taking place to harmonise the terms and conditions. That will take place in the usual That will take place in the usual way and we must be careful this is not being done in an unnecessary way. There is the issue of equal pay way. There is the issue of equal pay in Birmingham and for too long, and this is part of the issue, far too long, women workers were paid less long, women workers were paid less than male counterparts and that went

15:52

Preet Kaur Gill MP (Birmingham Edgbaston, Labour )

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than male counterparts and that went on for decades. What the council will have two face, it has to be resolved. It cannot continue that women are being paid less than male counterparts and it is about having counterparts and it is about having harmonisation in the right way. harmonisation in the right way.

15:52

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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I thank the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for the support and addressing the public health concerns in Birmingham. 26,000 tons of waste has been cleared and weekly collections will be resumed. I thank everyone involved including the many volunteers who are the best of Birmingham. That's the Minister agree it is right that the equal pay issues are resolved as more than 7000 women are now due composition and that is precisely what the deal on offer does ensuring the worker loses their pay.

-- No worker.

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This was what started the strike action in the first place when the action in the first place when the enhanced deal was put through. It cannot stand. There can be nothing cannot stand. There can be nothing in this agreement and there has to be a red line in that nothing can be reached by way of agreement that compromises the council position on equal pay for the future. I pay tribute to the divinity approach and

15:53

Rt Hon Sir Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)

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tribute to the divinity approach and the frontline workers who have made sure. -- Paid tribute to the community approach. community approach.

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Will be Minister thank the well- run Conservative councils who have helped or offered to help clear up helped or offered to help clear up this mess? It is not just the bin strike that my constituents have strike that my constituents have suffered but also the pending suffered but also the pending closure of libraries and the massive hike in council tax. Does he understand why so many of us want to

15:54

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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understand why so many of us want to see a judge-led inquiry in how bankrupt-Birmingham has got us into this mess? This is a dispute between two wings of the Labour Party and whatever I think of his counsel, it is wrong that my constituent, leader of the council, had a photograph of his house put on social media by Unite. Will he condemn that action by Unite? Speak I will be clear. I have seen union officials photographed with their house and the same trade union used photographs of the members of the council house and that is not OK.

This is already fraught dispute and requires good faith from all parties and negotiation and the ability to talk through issues in the interest of workers and the people of Birmingham. Our hope and expectation is that a line is drawn and we move forward in good faith. forward in good faith.

15:55

Tahir Ali MP (Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley, Labour)

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I draw your attention to my register of interest. The crisis of bin collection in Birmingham has

15:55

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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dragged on for too long. My constituents have suffered significantly as a result. I significantly as a result. I understand the financial pressures on the council and clearly it is on the council and clearly it is unreasonable to expect any worker to expect a pay cut. Will be Minister commit to taking all steps possible commit to taking all steps possible to encourage good faith negotiations between both parties and that a fair between both parties and that a fair deal can be reached so that this vital service can be restored

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vital service can be restored without any further disruption. In terms of equal pay, I don't think there has been a single example although I am prepared to be corrected. Has equal pay had winners and losers? That is the element we have to accept in the end and on the issue of the role and how it has been changed, the council is offering a sideways move which would mean a loss of income and they are offering workers the move to an equivalent role and they will provide training and they are offering an upgrade to driver offering an upgrade to driver training so that they can upgrade to being drivers.

15:56

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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I recall asking the Minister on a previous occasion about support for military personnel and the Minister said that they had taken it from zero to 100 very quickly but this

15:57

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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government have been slow to react and I was asked on Thursday about a and I was asked on Thursday about a local organisation and picking up rubbish with youth workers who are rubbish with youth workers who are working 12 hours in the morning and spending the evenings picking up spending the evenings picking up litter. Thousands of tonnes of recyclable waste which has not been recyclable waste which has not been collected is encouraging further issues. When will the Government issues.

When will the Government resolve the issues with bin workers and those who will lose up to £200,000.

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I share his appreciation of community volunteers cleaning up the streets and I welcome the hundreds of workers who have stepped in to of workers who have stepped in to make sure the accumulated waste is cleared and the efforts have meant

15:57

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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cleared and the efforts have meant 26,000 tons of accumulated waste have been cleared. We can share that at least but on the question of the government coming in and offering support, from that moment, he will now I have been in Birmingham every week since then and there have been daily calls for updates taking place at the council and we provide

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essential support to the council to clear this up. I thank the Minister for the

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I thank the Minister for the efforts he has made to keep efforts he has made to keep Birmingham MPs in front on a cross- party basis during this dispute and I associate myself with the I associate myself with the condemnations made in this place of the publication of photographs of the houses of some parties who are

15:58

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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the houses of some parties who are members of the dispute. My residents want to see service that is not the same as before the strike and it must be better and I hope the Minister shares that ambition but given what we have heard about the 1970s, it is not long ago a Conservative Secretary of State stood at the dispatch box and said he was delighted to announce 12% cuts for Birmingham, the sharpest of any local authority. Does he agree

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We have been here repeatedly with

15:59

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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We have been here repeatedly with questions and statements and oral questions which I've been asked in questions which I've been asked in the House and not on a single occasion has the Shadow Secretary of State or shadow ministers accepted the role in the 14 years that have driven the local authorities to the wall. Birmingham had to declare bankruptcy under the previous bankruptcy under the previous government. The only difference now is they have got the government on side willing to meet them side willing to meet them financially and also to meet them in spirit and through our actions which spirit and through our actions which is why we are cleaning up the streets in partnership to get Birmingham clean.

Birmingham clean.

16:00

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Which legacy is the Minister most proud of? Rubbish and rats in Birmingham or the labour breach of

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the promise not to increase Council tax? I'm sure that sounded better when

16:00

Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Independent)

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he drafted a in terms of the substance, I don't think anyone takes pride in the strike action and the waste accumulated on the street. It is a serious issue. It's not acceptable at all that it had to be called and that the public health concerns are as prevalent as they were and that is why we took quick action and by the streets have been cleaned to the tune of 26,000 tons and why there are more daily collections to make sure that they catch up and in the end the only solution to this is to deal with underlying strike action that is causing the disruption.

16:01

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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I refer to my register of interest. I'm a member of Unite and four generations of my family have been. Can I say to the Minister not to rise to the provocation from opposite. There is a difference between having three military advisers and having troops on the streets which would be seen as an act of provocation. I suggest to him that either he of the Secretary of State convene meetings between the council and the unions to secure

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In terms of medication has been

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In terms of medication has been almost daily medication with the council. The trade unions have also made representations. But we need to made representations. But we need to be clear about appropriate roles and response abilities and where lines response abilities and where lines of accountability are. The government is not the employer of the workforce in Birmingham, the the workforce in Birmingham, the council is the employer. It is for employer and employees to reach an

16:02

Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)

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employer and employees to reach an agreement that can be accepted. We urge both parties to negotiate in good faith. We believe that the deal on the table is a good deal. And he is correct to say workers have the right to make the representations known the end the council has to take into account all views of the workforce including over 7000 women historically were paid far less than their male counterparts and that is their male counterparts and that is that foundational issue at the heart of this.

16:02

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Thank you Mr Speaker. Despite assurances from the Dispatch Box before the Easter recess, we continue to see piles of rubbish on the streets in Birmingham. We continue to see the costs mounting. And the rats do continue to roam freely on the streets of Britain's second city was so would like to ask the Minister again, what is his government and the Labour run Birmingham City Council doing to put an end to the strike. Enough is enough, residents want to see an end to this.

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There is still work taking place. I should address the issue of rodents because that is serious. Nobody wants to see rats around the Nobody wants to see rats around the street, to clearly around the waist as was taking place. That is why we welcome the decision of the council welcome the decision of the council to suspend the callout for pest control to ensure that households control to ensure that households when they do report rodents are not disadvantaged. In terms of the

16:03

Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)

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disadvantaged. In terms of the response to this, we said from day one that accumulated waste was not acceptable and it was a public health hazard which is why the government stepped in to support the council to make sure that we could get more trucks out of the depot, that the amount of waste being collected could increase the amount of routine collections could be regularised. I'm pleased to say progress has been made. The thing that will resolve this is for trade unions and the council to reach an agreement that brings strike action to an end.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. I will take it as a congratulation from the speaker of the House of Commons on speaker of the House of Commons on the promotion of Leeds United. That is the most popular thing I've said on here for some time which is on here for some time which is saying something. I am a member of saying something. I am a member of Unite, a trade union ever, and proud to be so. I remember the 2009 Leeds in strike with a Conservative run

16:04

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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in strike with a Conservative run council tried to cut been workers salary by £9000. A three-month strike followed which resulted many successful. I wanted to raise the

16:04

Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)

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general point with the Minister when I hear what has been said in the

16:04

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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I hear what has been said in the chamber. It is always wrong to castigate trade unions, an important part of our civil democracy, as the enemy within. When we are talking enemy within. When we are talking about Unite the Union and this strike or any strike, it is not union officials that call the strike it is trade union members. So Unite the Union means the bin workers. It the Union means the bin workers. It is important that we don't allow trade unions and trade unionism to be demonised in relation to this

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dispute or any other. What we can agree on is that

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What we can agree on is that people have the right to strike. People also have the right to go to work, and what we saw were work, and what we saw were restrictions on the number of trucks that could leave the depot. That had

16:05

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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a significant impact on the amount of waste that could be collected. The direct result was the collation of tens of thousands of waste on the street. What we really want in the end is for Unite, as the negotiating body of the workforce it represents, and Birmingham City Council of the employer, to get around the table of the deal that has been tabled and iron out the differences if there are differences, to reach an agreement. In the meantime, we strongly encourage Unite to suspend strike actions during the

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negotiations. Birmingham City Council is the

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Birmingham City Council is the largest authority in the UK by largest authority in the UK by population. Sadly many years it has been struggling with very severe problems that has been impacting on

16:06

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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problems that has been impacting on its residents. The government is engaged in local government reorganisation over much of the country. There is a large part Birmingham City Council that may be outside of the current Birmingham boundaries. Would the Minister look at whether it is time to review boundaries of Birmingham City boundaries of Birmingham City Council to see if it has got to the stage where it is so large that it cannot function properly for its residents?

16:06

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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I don't think anyone could criticise my work ethic but I think reorganising one third of England and 20 million residents being affected is quite reorganisation to deliver. We should focus on that. There is no intention to reorganise Birmingham. But there is an intention to resolve the trade union dispute that has taken place, to get people back to work and reach an agreement that is acceptable.

16:07

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Can I just point out that the

16:07

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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strike did start under this Labour government and under a Labour council and continues despite all

16:07

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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council and continues despite all the handwringing and anguish under a Labour government under a Labour council. It is futile for the government to try and pretend it is government to try and pretend it is all somebody else's fault, least of all the previous government. Can he all the previous government. Can he avoid misrepresenting what my right honourable friend said? He made a perfectly reasonable suggestion that we should reinstate the legislation that would allow agency workers to be brought in to pick up the rubbish off Birmingham Street.

Why won't he off Birmingham Street. Why won't he do that and he is pussyfooting around and kowtowing around to his

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Labour paymasters, the trade unions. The award for the silliest

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The award for the silliest question yet. There is no kowtowing. question yet. There is no kowtowing. We have played this with a straight bat in the interests of the people of Birmingham in the way that the people of Birmingham would expect.

16:08

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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people of Birmingham would expect. It comes to the issue of agency workers, our judgement is that is not required because mutual a has been brought in from neighbouring councils and housing associations, and the redeployment of frontline staff and elsewhere the councillors that the DQ -related waste that has been developing over the period. We have now seen 26,000 tons of waste have now seen 26,000 tons of waste cleared. Now that trucks are leaving the depot, there are now more the depot, there are now more collections taking place in terms of tonnage a day than in regular times tonnage a day than in regular times the councillors on top of that.

There is not the need in the way that he speaks to bring in the agency staffing talked about.

16:08

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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The Minister no doubt sincerely believes that the offer on the table is a good one. Why does he think the

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unions are not accepting it? It is clear through the negotiations that there are a number negotiations that there are a number of moving parts. We should also be of moving parts. We should also be clear we are not replicating those negotiated under this chamber. Those negotiations should take place between the employer and employees

16:09

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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between the employer and employees in the trade unions should not be trying to circumnavigate that here. Our belief is it is an agreement that strikes the right balance between giving support to the workers who are affected, but not undermining the equal pay work that has been done for far too long. has been done for far too long.

16:09

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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The Minister failed to answer my honourable friend's question on whether troops would be used to clear up the mess. Would he now do so? And with the Defence Secretary sitting next to him who will know very well that the salary starts around £25,000 was up would you say that in the event that troops are used, they will also receive arduous duty payments as part of the

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arrangements? As I said before, I think I've come this a couple of times, we are come this a couple of times, we are grateful to our colleagues in the MoD for the support they have MoD for the support they have provided. It was members of staff and that logistical planning and they have had a big role. What there they have had a big role. What there is not a requirement for is for troops to be deployed on the street

16:10

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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troops to be deployed on the street because the council is getting on top of it. We don't take that for granted and we don't want any disruption to that but the military are not needed on the streets of Birmingham. Workers are doing the work today.

16:10

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Thank you Mr Speaker. A genuine question to the Minister, I am a bit confused as to what these three super men and women from the military have done. One of the principles of mutual age, military aid and civil authority is the people you are helping have not to have the capacity themselves, and it is unreasonable to expect it to grow in a timely manner. What have they done that Birmingham City Council

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could not do themselves? I'm usually suspicious when someone starts of the question with someone starts of the question with saying this is a genuine question. But I see that was a proper question. Members could learn from question. Members could learn from that. In terms of the underlying question as to the added value... question as to the added value... Calm down. The added value the MoD were able to provide is essentially were able to provide is essentially any council has an organised routine any council has an organised routine and getting bins collected in a given place.

In Birmingham's situation, but they had mutual age from other councils they have to work out how best to support in terms of trucks and available workers across the city in a different way, so logistical workers from the MoD was supporting the creation of those new collection rounds as part of the responsibility in the queue related risk.

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Could the Minister or the pipeline as he is becoming known as pipeline as he is becoming known as clarify, is opening 70 said that military offered their support to clear up this mess was up today clear up this mess was up today offer or asked by his government to stand up and support because his government can't stand up the

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unions? I've covered already the value

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I've covered already the value that the MoD had provided. We work in partnership on that. The offer of support was made and was given to support was made and was given to the council. They have received that gratefully full stop the MoD have also been very clear that planners who have been on the ground Birmingham that the council is at the point now where it does not need the support because it has the

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collection rounds in place. I hope you would welcome that. I refer members to my Register of

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I refer members to my Register of Interests. Eight weeks ago the Minister for local government told me on the Select Committee there was a lot of good work taking place in a lot of good work taking place in Birmingham. The government wants to create super councils covering half create super councils covering half a million people over vast areas, to manage bin collections and other vital services against the wishes of vital services against the wishes of my constituency. We have seen the results of Birmingham.

Does the Minister agree that tons of rubbish on the street is the model the rest of the country should follow?

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In a way that shows the misunderstanding of why Birmingham is in this situation it is. It makes no more sense to say that no more sense to say that Birmingham's problems are because of its size and scale than it would to say of the liabilities that have been built up by the smallest councils in the country the way they have been borrowing thousands of

16:13

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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have been borrowing thousands of times the revenue. These are down to long-term issues. Some of it is the foundational funding that the council has been given in Birmingham. But Birmingham is getting its house in order. It is not an easy process and they have a way to go. When it comes to resolving the historical equal pay liabilities, it comes to resolving the broken IT system, it is a significant financial ability for the council. When it comes to modernising its workforce, the council is making progress.

It has got a way to go.

16:14

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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It allows us to come to Jim Shannon.

16:14

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Can I thank the Minister for his answers to the difficult questions.

16:14

Jim McMahon MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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The Minister will understand that The Minister will understand that although of course there is a necessity for military intervention in terms of life in Northern in terms of life in Northern Ireland, but whilst it is never an easy option, does the Minister not agree that it is the only option if agree that it is the only option if the pay deal can't be reached to ensure that disease does not spread through the city, that action is taken for the ill and the vulnerable to pay the price of the stand-off?

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to pay the price of the stand-off? As it stands, most times it has

16:15

Ministerial statement: Ukraine Update

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As it stands, most times it has returned to normal service was UQ - related waste that built up a acceptable. 26 tons of waste have acceptable. 26 tons of waste have been removed, and in most places and most times, the routine collections of the bins are taking place as normal. And many trucks are leaving the depot's every day. I agree that it is not acceptable from a public health point of view and has consequences.

16:15

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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That completes the Urgent Question. Let the Frontbench change Question. Let the Frontbench change Question. Let the Frontbench change Today, HMS 'Prince of Wales' Today, HMS 'Prince of Wales' set sail and I trust the House will join me in wishing them a successful deployment. I wish to make a statement on the ongoing war in Ukraine. Parliament returns from Easter break today but during the last two weeks, the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin has continued with drone strikes, missile attacks, fierce fighting on the front line.

On Palm Sunday, men, women, and children on their way to church were hit by the deadliest attack on Ukrainians are building so far this year by Putin which killed 38 people including children and injured 100 more. We can tame this attack and the illegal actions of Putin. At this critical moment for Ukraine's European security, we have stepped up Defence efforts for Ukraine and will step up further to increase military support for the fight today and to secure peace for tomorrow.

We cannot jeopardise the peace by forgetting about the war. 10 days ago in Brussels the UK convened the 27th meeting of the Ukraine Defence Contact alongside Boris Pistorius. Alongside partners from Europe and South America, they came together at NATO headquarters with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the UN Defence Secretary, and the NATO secretary general Mark Rutte. We came together to step up support for Ukraine in the fight and together replace the record 21 euros billion of military support to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position and increase pressure on Putin to negotiate.

This year, the UK is providing £45 billion of military support to Ukraine which is more than ever before. In Brussels, £200 million of this support will be searched to the front line with support reaching fighters by this month. -- surged. This includes radar, anti-tank missiles, hundreds of thousands of drones. We will also help repair and maintain essential battlefield vehicles and equipment. This support will strengthen Ukrainian trips and will also strengthen industrial links with Ukraine and oost UK businesses.

-- Ukraine and oost UK businesses. -- boost. When Trump talks about peace through strength it is these contacts that provide the strength to secure the piece. Despite the promise of Vladimir Putin of a pause in fighting of 13 hours, I can confirm Defence intelligence found, "No indication that a ceasefire on the front line was observed over the Easter period." 10,000 missiles and drones have been fired into Ukraine this year alone, including from the Black Sea.

While Putin said he declared an Easter truce, he broke it. Putin said he wants peace but has rejected a full ceasefire. And while Putin says he wants to put an end to the fighting, he continues to play for time in the negotiations. The Russian military continues to pressure Ukraine on a number of fronts. I can confirm Russian military progress is slowing down. Putin gained less territory in March than February. Less territory in February than January.

Ukrainian towns which Russia has been targeting since before Christmas have still not captured. Ukrainian troops have still not rejected from Russian territory in Kursk. Whatever ground Putin is taking comes at huge human cost. Over 49,000 Russians have likely been killed or injured -- 249,000 including 100 and thousand killed this year alone. The average daily casualty rate on the Russian side was 1300, almost double this time last year. At home, Putin faces crippling interest rates with faces crippling interest rates with inflation at over 10% and Russia spending nearly 40% of the entire budget on this military campaign.

It is likely that Russia will keep up attacks on the Sumy obelisk. Russia is targeting many strongholds in Donetsk. And in Kerry O'Keeffe, Russia is making assaults towards the logistics hub. We expect more Russian missiles to be fired into Ukraine. That is why we must remain united for Ukraine across this House, this country, and the nation standing alongside Ukraine. We must step up support for Ukraine and pressure on Putin to force them to recognise now is the time for peace.

Continuing the war would prove much worse in the long run for Russia. We believe that peace is possible and we must be ready for when that we must be ready for when that comes. Along with the vital military aid, the UK government continues the push for peace. The Foreign Secretary joined the ceasefire discussions with the US, France, Germany, and Ukraine last week and in Brussels 10 days ago, along with my good friend the French minister and I also convened and co-chaired the first Defence Ministers Meeting of the Coalition of the Billing, 30 countries coming together to build on the hard work in Europe and beyond.

The operational planning must remain classified but I assure the House the plans are real and substantial and well developed and Ukraine. First, secure states guys. Second, safe sees. Third, support piece on the land. And fourth, support the armed forces to become their own strongest possible We will continue to provide strong commitments for this coalition. I will be meeting with the Ukrainian Defence Minister and other allies as the government brings together US, UK, and European ministers and national Defence security advisers to discuss the next steps including what a ceasefire might look like and how to secure peace in the long term.

This war was never just about the fate of one nation. It is about not allowing national borders to be redrawn by force. It is about preventing aggressors across the world from being emboldened to threaten the security of all nations. That is why the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine and why UK the UK starts in Ukraine and why UK leadership is playing a big role to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position on the battlefield

16:24

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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and in negotiations. And also to prepare building blocks for a lasting peace that will safeguard sovereignty and deter Putin from future aggression. I call this House future aggression. I call this House today will join in sending a signal to President Putin and then saying to President Putin and then saying Ukraine, "We will stand with you in the fight and we will stand with you the fight and we will stand with you in the piece, whenever that may come."

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come." Can I associate the Opposition with the Secretary of State in wishing a good and successful mission to the crew of HMS 'Prince of Wales' on its latest trip. I welcome the statement and, as we did in Opposition, the support provided for my department family visited Ukraine. It was a privilege to pay tribute to those involved in this war and also the remainder of the Reality on the ground and the lies and propaganda from the Kremlin in terms of a ceasefire.

For Putin, ceasefire is simply part of a team that he has no intention of passing and we continue to stand with our allies and being 100% clear on who the aggressor is in this war. Those who pay the price for Putin's game are innocent civilians such as those killed in the terrible strike on Sumy on Palm Sunday. It does not illustrate the contrast between claims of ceasefires on one hand and the reality of continued Russian aggression. In the face of such aggression, we remain proud of the extraordinary role the UK has played in backing Ukraine's struggle under successive government and I welcome the new TCG.

Turning to the latest update on the Coalition of the Willing, while we stand with the government, he knows it would be a major shift to go from indirect provisions to boots on the ground and as the Opposition, we are duty- bound to probe several unanswered but practical questions that any such employment would entail. On March 22, I wrote to the Secretary of State with a series of questions on the Coalition of the Willing and I've yet to receive a reply. What progress has he made on securing the US military backstop? Secondly, what with the expected rules of engagement be? Thirdly, how many nations have definitively committed to sending troops? Fourthly, will he For any deployment given the previous experience of lawsuits arising from overseas operations? An extraordinary aspect of the Coalition of the Willing is we are meant to be living with France but behind our back they are seeking to undermine our fishing rights in our sovereign watches over access to European Defence fund which will definitively include non-EU nations.

When I pointed this out I was asked to drop the Brexit rhetoric by the Secretary of State but in the recess he blasted the foreign affairs chief when she suggested his plan was unclear. What is clear? From the beginning of the war, helping avoid early capitulation which would have been a disaster for the whole of Europe. We offer a nuclear deterrent to NATO 24/7, not to get better fishing rights to defend the freedom of European nations and so a country that does all this should not be excluded from a defence fund that includes non-EU states and we are includes non-EU states and we are doing everything possible to strengthen European Defence solidarity.

The Secretary of State must understand this is not about

16:28

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Brexit, Britain, France, but security for the whole of Europe. Does he understand that? Can they Does he understand that? Can they categorically confirm the government will not offer any concessions on fishing rights to secure an EU fishing rights to secure an EU Defence pack? Turning to procurement Defence pack? Turning to procurement for the armed forces in Kyiv, I had the pleasure to meet Ukrainian manufacturers of drones which have manufacturers of drones which have been effective on the frontline. Can I ask the Secretary of State about them partnering with British them partnering with British companies to boost Ukraine and give them rapid access to proven

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capabilities? How much of this will be published this month? I am glad the honourable

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I am glad the honourable gentleman has been to Ukraine gentleman has been to Ukraine recently. I'm glad we were able to facilitate that visit. I am proud of facilitate that visit. I am proud of the number of members of this House from all sides that are regularly going to Ukraine. It is... It has a going to Ukraine. It is... It has a big impact on the Ukrainian populations who do not necessarily populations who do not necessarily hear these debates but see us in Ukraine and so they know that this is a country that stands united with them.

The honourable gentleman is completely right to draw what he calls the contrast between the claims of a ceasefire by Putin and the reality of continued brutal attacks including the civilian population. He asks about the potential situation of a negotiation for peace in which we alongside 30 other nations as part of the Coalition of the Willing can consider how to secure the lasting peace which President Trump has promised to deliver. He will the Prime Minister saying that we are if necessary fully committed to putting British troops on the ground if necessary and we would do that because the security of the UK starts in Ukraine.

He asks about the US. Both I and the Prime Minister in discussions with the US have been clear that Ukraine, post- and negotiated ceasefire and peace, will need long-term security assurances and that there is a role for the US As the honourable gentleman knows better than anyone, long-standing , the UK Government home and abroad will comply with international law. That's what sets us apart from nations like Putin's Russia, and are not going to be drawn into any of the operational deployment what that may look like because the only person the benefits from that is President Putin.

Two other things he raised with me, the high representative for the EU and the question of a European Union UK defence agreement and access to the sort of EU programs that they are stepping up and putting in place, quite rightly says we have a part to play, we have a contribution to make, and let me reflect what Kai Callister herself has said. She said I think UK is a very important defence and security partner. It's the most logical defence security partner that we have, and it is a beneficial relationship to both sides.

It's why she and we are committed to the negotiation of a defence and security agreement, and finally on the question of drones, he is right to point to the significance of drones in this current battle. It's now the fact

16:32

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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that more casualties on both sides and of course by drones than and of course by drones than artillery. And in terms of the UK and Ukrainian link, we have helped and Ukrainian link, we have helped manufacture, supply in this country and in Ukraine over 14,000 drones and in Ukraine over 14,000 drones since July in the last election. This is central to the Ukrainian This is central to the Ukrainian defence strategy. It central to the future of our own forces, and it central to...

The SDR, we've said central to... The SDR, we've said many times, it's close to completion. It's been finalised, it will be published in the spring.

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Thank you. While it was saddening to hear about the continued colossal death and destruction in Ukraine, I death and destruction in Ukraine, I welcome the Secretary of State's statement and his leadership of the Ukraine defence contact group, which by pledging a record 21 euros by pledging a record 21 euros billion has demonstrated that the 51 allies are firmly committed to

16:33

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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allies are firmly committed to helping our Ukrainian friends in their hour of need. The Secretary of State also alluded to the many shorter ceasefires that were agreed and then broken, and the question we need to ask ourselves is when President Putin says he wants a ceasefire, is that actually the case? But if a much-needed ceasefire is agreed, how confident is he of convening and then keeping the

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coalition of the willing together? Grateful to my honourable friend for his contribution and the job he does chairing the defence committee. does chairing the defence committee. One of the trickiest tasks about the work that is being undertaken by our military planners is that it is not clear what circumstances any forces clear what circumstances any forces may be required to be deployed. And it is not clear the details of the negotiated peace deal that we all want to see will be in place.

So he

16:35

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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asked me the straight question actually when the deal is done, when the piece is negotiated, the the piece is negotiated, the ceasefires in place, I believe it will be easier, not harder to hold will be easier, not harder to hold together and enlarge the number of nations willing to be part of the nations willing to be part of the coalition of the willing, and in the meeting that I chaired at NATO meeting that I chaired at NATO headquarters 10 days ago, the first ever defence Minister is of the coalition of the willing, there were 30 nations around the table, all participating in the detailed operational military planning that is continuing, 30 nations not just

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in Europe but beyond as well. I also thank the Defence Secretary for advanced sight for Secretary for advanced sight for statement. We welcome the £200 million support for the frontline to support the Ukraine. Over Easter, support the Ukraine. Over Easter, Putin proved he had no interest in peace. After hours of declaring a peace. After hours of declaring a truce, he released fresh artillery attacks over many parts of the attacks over many parts of the frontline and shared his utter indifference to the Ukrainian People's struggle after boasting he would end the war within 24 hours of taking office, he now threatens to withdraw US support for mediating talks altogether.

It's no wonder his efforts have failed, given his warped approach for applying pressure to Kiev while offering the hand of friendship to the Kremlin. We cannot rely on President Trump everyone to secure a just peace in Ukraine, one which respects Ukraine's right to determination and shows aggression to neighbours does not pay. That's why the UK needs to go further and faster together with our partners in Europe and the Commonwealth to support Ukraine and Commonwealth to support Ukraine and

16:36

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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increase the pressure on Putin. The Defence Secretary added the House Defence Secretary added the House and what steps have been taken to seize the 25 billion worth of frozen Russian assets across the UK and to deploy these to Ukraine? They also update the House and whether the update the House and whether the government plans to expand the U.K.'s designation as part of Russia's shadow fleet sent sanctions to further reduce Putin's ability to fund his war through exported oil? fund his war through exported oil? We work to create reassurance Ukraine.

The credibility of the Ukraine. The credibility of the U.K.'s commitment to such a force would be significantly enhanced by reversing the staggeringly irresponsible 10,000 troop cuts to irresponsible 10,000 troop cuts to our army which the Conservatives undertook in government. What he commit to reversing these cuts

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today? I welcome her welcome for the surge in UK support to the Ukrainian surge in UK support to the Ukrainian surge in UK support to the Ukrainian To really support them at this point in their close fight and that's what we are determined to do as well as preparing for the longer term piece preparing for the longer term piece we hope will be secured. I just want to say to her on the question of the peace negotiation, Willie is President Trump that his created this opportunity for those this opportunity for those negotiations and for that piece, and it's really too soon to call failure on those negotiations.

Everything about the determination of some of the significant US figures and the work they are doing, the discussions that we will help support and play a part of in London tomorrow demonstrate that there is a broad coalition of nations wanting to see a piece in Ukraine, wanting to see

16:38

Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)

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Putin negotiate seriously and willing to take the steps to help

16:38

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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willing to take the steps to help bring that about. And in the question of pressures on Putin, the

16:38

Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)

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question of pressures on Putin, the question of whether we can make any further use of the seized Russian further use of the seized Russian state assets is something we are looking closely at. It isn't just a looking closely at. It isn't just a question or judgement for the UK. That will be much more powerful if that is done with other allies, that is done with other allies, particularly through the G-7 so if we make any progress on that front,

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that is the way we will do it. I've just come back from the Ukraine commander went with other members of the Foreign Affairs

16:39

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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members of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and can certainly confirm what we all know, that there is huge gratitude and affection for the United Kingdom in Ukraine. At whatever is going on on the Western front, it's actually a war that affects the whole of the country and even when we were in the capital there were three air raids in one day. But there is a desire by Ukrainians to reciprocate and support us as best they can. And by necessity they've become absolute experts in the use of drones.

And they want to share the knowledge and skills with us in terms of training and the use of drones but also the use of development and production of the new weapon system. For the government be taking up this opportunity of working with Ukraine

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is on this new weapon system? Can I thank her for the job she is doing chairing the Foreign Affairs committee and for her Affairs committee and for her commitment Ukraine and her recent commitment Ukraine and her recent visit? I'm proud of the U.K.'s leadership on Ukraine, part of the way it was led by the previous government supported by us in government supported by us in opposition, and I'm proud to say that the official opposition now provide the necessary support for this government to step up still this government to step up still further the support we offer.

On the question of drones, it's not just a question of will we do this, we have been doing this for some time commander said early on in response to the shadow Defence Secretary that since election in July last summer alone we have gifted more than

16:40

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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. In some cases there is a drones we have made, designed, developed, made here, in some cases jointly with Ukrainian companies. Sometimes we are now making sure that they can design and develop and manufacture for themselves in Ukraine because for themselves in Ukraine because it's the most effective way and manufacture for themselves in Ukraine because it's the Most Effective Way, Ukrainians reinforce their own Armed Forces and their their own Armed Forces and their industry, and is the quickest way of getting into the hands of their frontline troops.

The necessary agreement and systems they need to

16:40

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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fight off Putin's invasion. Father the House Sir Edward

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Leigh. What worries me is that President Putin has said as it will not accept Putin has said as it will not accept NATO troops on the ground, but in the absence of NATO troops on the ground, could we not be back to a 1939 situation where the aggressor 1939 situation where the aggressor takes slight territory and moves in several months later? So this active state confirm that he is absolutely convinced and perhaps he can convince President Trump that in the absence of NATO troops on the ground, this is a worthless piece?

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ground, this is a worthless piece? No one is talking about NATO troops. The coalition of the willing is a coalition of nations, menu but not all NATO members. Link to come together, discussing the military options and the planning, in close liaison with NATO because it potentially has implications for NATO. But I would just say to him, President Trump is leading the negotiations. President Putin is not yet negotiating seriously. He is not in a position to lay down terms like

16:42

Derek Twigg MP (Widnes and Halewood, Labour)

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that. And securing the ultimate objective that President Trump, president Zelensky will all want to see, which is not just a piece but a lasting durable peace will require reassurance and it will require reassurance and it will require The strength of their own deterrence

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The strength of their own deterrence to do that for themselves For Ukraine. It's clear Putin does not want peace. All he's interested in doing is gaining

16:42

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Ukrainian territory. And we have to send a clear message to him that we are not taking a step backwards ourselves and our allies. And anyway we can get a just settlement of we can get a just settlement of Ukraine is the Ukrainians to be as powerful militarily as it possibly can be and we stop the Russians taking more territory. So can I say taking more territory. So can I say to my honourable friend I welcome the efforts made so far in the additional funding the can I say additional funding the can I say this and I've said it once before, we will have to increase defence spending further on the 3% by the next election is not enough.

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Although there are many experts in this House on both sides on defence and security, my honourable defence and security, my honourable friend is one of the leading voices on this, and has followed it most on this, and has followed it most closely for a great deal of time. I hear what he says. I know and I'm pleased that he welcomes the commitment to 2.5% of GDP on defence three years earlier than anyone expected in 2027, and the command also to raise that 3% in the next Parliament.

I know he will also welcome that this year as a mark of that intent we are putting an extra £5 billion into defence spending this year. There is nothing in the discussions of the 51 nations and partners the UDC G in Brussels I chaired with the Germans or the 30 nations in the coalition of willing

16:44

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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that I chaired the previous day in Brussels that suggests that the Brussels that suggests that the strength of those nations that stand with Ukraine is diminishing. In far from it, we are stepping up. We will step up further. And we will stay step up further. And we will stay with Ukraine as long as it takes in fight. We will stay with Ukraine for fight. We will stay with Ukraine for as long as it takes in peace.

16:44

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Can I welcome the Secretary of State's statement today? I think the House had risen for Easter recess when president Zelensky announced the 155 Chinese troops had been deployed in support of Russian forces in Ukraine. So can I invite the Secretary of State please tell us how this major crossing of the Rubicon is going to change their own government's approach to China, and how it might be informing his decisions with his American counterpart?

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Think what it shows in the same

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Think what it shows in the same way as the way that President Putin is increasingly relying on North Korean troops to fight his battles, Korean troops to fight his battles, and uranium missiles in order to hit Ukraine, it demonstrates an Ukraine, it demonstrates an underlying weakness not a strength from President Putin. And as far as from President Putin. And as far as China goes, it is part of the very strong messages that the chief of strong messages that the chief of defence staff gave and discussed with the Chinese when he visited recently his counterparts in China.

16:46

Fred Thomas MP (Plymouth Moor View, Labour)

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That we see the importance of peace That we see the importance of peace and stability in the Indo Pacific as a matter not just for those nations in that region, that we see the in that region, that we see the future of Taiwan as necessarily want to be conducted by peaceful negotiation, not threats or negotiation, not threats or negotiation, not threats or And that very strong concern that, for stability and peace continuing for stability and peace continuing in the Indo-Pacific, as a matter that we want China to be very well

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aware of. I thank the Secretary of State

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I thank the Secretary of State for his leadership in Europe, but my question to him as one around tactics, and over the weekend, I

16:46

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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tactics, and over the weekend, I spoke with the British sniper who is now fighting for the Ukrainians on the frontline. He was telling me about tactical changes to how he operates, but those changes are not reflected in our own sniper training in the British forces, so if we are talking about a coalition and potential UK troops involved in defence, when will we update the training syllabus for our own forces to reflect the tactics that are currently in use in Ukraine?

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My honourable friend speaks from a position of great experience and a position of great experience and authority on this. Since he points to something that gets to the heart to something that gets to the heart of the strategic defence review, of the strategic defence review, that it takes something that is that it takes something that is hardwired in July and we need to learn the lessons from Ukraine not learn the lessons from Ukraine not in order to fight but the fact that

16:47

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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the nature of warfare is changing. We have mentioned the importance of We have mentioned the importance of drones, but the combination of forces needs to be more integrated. It needs to be driven much more by technology and that will have implications not just for equipment but also for training. So I know he but also for training. So I know he will look forward to the publication. He will be on the case publication. He will be on the case for the Select Committee to make sure that it is fully implemented, but I welcome his contribution to

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the debate. Coupled with the decision of the

16:48

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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leader of the free world to describe Ukraine as the aggressor in this Ukraine as the aggressor in this war, is the news today that America may be considering no longer may be considering no longer supplying the supreme Allied Cmdr Europe to NATO. Is the defence Europe to NATO. Is the defence secretary looking forward as much as the rest of us are to hearing what the rest of us are to hearing what Pres Trump has to say if he comes to this Parliament as soon September about how it is that the system that kept the peace in Europe for 50 years after the Second World War is

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no longer applicable for the future. Will both look forward to the president's visit to this country president's visit to this country when it is staged. I would just when it is staged. I would just caution him. He is so experienced in caution him. He is so experienced in this that to chase the sort of most recent comments or to regard them as somehow seeing them as profound, I somehow seeing them as profound, I would just say look, the QS -- US, reinforced has rightly challenged

16:49

Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)

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Europe to step up on defence expecting, on European security, on Ukraine, but Europe and other nations are stepping up does not nations are stepping up does not mean the US stepping away, and when our Prime Minister was in the White House, they had a detailed

16:50

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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House, they had a detailed discussion about NATO and Pres Trump reaffirmed his total commitment to reaffirmed his total commitment to It is clear that Russia's aggression undermines our security right here at home in the UK. There's a defence secretary agree that this matters to

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everyone across the country? In the high politics of

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In the high politics of international peace negotiations, in the brutal drama and killing of the the brutal drama and killing of the battlefield, it is often easy to battlefield, it is often easy to overlook the fact that the strength of our ability as a nation, as a government to offer Ukraine support depends on the well of support of the British people. And my honourable friend is completely honourable friend is completely right that this battle for the future of Ukraine, the huge courage that Ukrainian men and women, military and civilians alike are showing in resisting Putin's invasion, it matters to us in the UK.

It matters not just because

16:51

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

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defence of the UK and Europe starts in Ukraine, but it matters to the British people who opened their homes over three years ago when Putin invaded two refugee Ukrainians. It matters to people in Ukrainians. It matters to people in this country because they recognise that Ukrainians are fighting for what we hold dear. The right to elect our own government, to determine their own future as a

16:52

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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determine their own future as a country, and to do that under the

16:52

Mr Will Forster MP (Woking, Liberal Democrat)

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power of the dictator like Putin.

16:52

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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The Defence Secretary has acknowledged MPs from across the house were visited Ukraine and I wanted to share that experience for myself. When I visited Ukrainian hospitals, I met a man suffering from a chemical weapons attack. Doctors were struggling to treat him because they didn't know what weapons were used. Can the Secretary of State what monitoring does for other warcrimes in Ukraine and how is the UK raising that with international partners?

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We would hate any use of chemical weapons. I am not aware of those weapons. I am not aware of those reports, but I will check those out and write to the honourable gentleman. But he quite rightly gentleman. But he quite rightly points to the very sharpest and of

16:53

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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this Ukrainian fight which is those injured servicemen and women in Ukrainian hospitals, and the UK government from almost month one was putting in place UK medical support for the Ukrainian system. We have stepped that up recently when I announced an increase in the support of funding for that, and it is an important part.

16:53

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I welcome the need to spend defence funds on buying weapons made in this country. We are building a new factory in my constituency to produce artillery weapons to go to the Ukraine, so can I ask for some commitment that we will supply those wherever Ukraine wants them, and we will treat with a degree of scepticism and contempt the comments by Putin trying to manufacture some We mention a company in the We have a firm which will be making British Steel to supply to a new British Steel to supply to a new artillery barrel factory.

This is a result of what happened in UK and Germany. It will make 400 jobs in Britain and will mean that we produce gun barrels in this country for the first time in over 10 years, and it is a good example of the short-range defence missiles to Ukraine that will oversee 5000 of those produced in Northern Ireland, creating an extra 200 jobs, a good example where we can support Ukraine strengthen our own national security and boost economic growth at the same time.

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It sounds like a euphemism for escalation that would expose our escalation that would expose our boys and girls to very significant risk, and yet on 3 March at the despatch boxes, the prime minister despatch boxes, the prime minister said to me that we would not be deploying troops to Ukraine without deploying troops to Ukraine without a US backstop, and without US security guaranteed. He was right, wasn't he?

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wasn't he? I have already said that the Prime Minister has made clear, as I have done to the secretary in the US that we support absolutely their bid to secure a negotiated peace, and we

16:56

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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expect there to be a role for the US in helping to secure that piece for

16:56

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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in helping to secure that piece for the long-term. What we are leading, alongside the French, is a determined effort, a coalition of determined effort, a coalition of the willing that demonstrates that European nations like us with

16:56

Luke Akehurst MP (North Durham, Labour)

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European nations like us with capability to lead this sort of deployment are willing to step up

16:56

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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and do more. But as I said again, nations like the UK stepping up does nations like the UK stepping up does not necessarily mean the US are

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stepping away. The strength of the Ukraine group and coalition of the willing these and coalition of the willing these past few weeks has sent an important signal and a critical time for Ukraine. Does the secretary of state agree with me that it is critical that we express our unwavering that we express our unwavering support for Ukraine's right to exist its freedom and its national sovereignty?

16:57

Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)

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sovereignty? I do indeed. Wonder whether you

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I do indeed. Wonder whether you might join to help me with my speechwriting. This is what is at stake as the Ukrainians fight for their future, their country, their freedom and is down to us to provide them with the support.

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There is much in the statement by way of a healthy update, but the key element for all of us should be on the final page when he says we must not allow borders to be redrawn by force and that enjoys unanimous support. I have a question on the support. I have a question on the 4.5 billion from previous governance, and will he update the

16:58

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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governance, and will he update the house and how much is consumed in this financial year, how much is in cash, how much is in URL, and when it comes to potential air policing in Ukraine, this will be on top of air policing in the South Atlantic, a policing in the Baltic, and the eastern Mediterranean. Would it not be unconscionable for a new order

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?$$NEWLINE He asks about the 4.5 billion. This is the scale of the military support to Ukraine this military support to Ukraine this year. It is more than this country

16:59

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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year. It is more than this country has committed at any time before. That is a combination of three billion-a-year this year, +1.5 billion from the proceeds of assets that we are also deploying. We are doing this according to a joint plan with Ukraine for 2025 that we have developed so that we look to supply what they need most.

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The Defence Secretary was quite right when he said that the

16:59

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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right when he said that the announcement by Pres Putin of a pause in fighting over Easter weekend was a false promise. We see many false promises from Putin and his aggression against not just Ukraine but against the whole of Europe and that is really concerning. While we were on recess, he had to scramble typhoons to intercept ILO 20 M spare aircraft. What more will he do to protect maritime space from aggression in

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Russia? The simple answer is that we will do whatever is required as the UK do whatever is required as the UK contribution to the NATO alliance. I am proud of the role that the UK am proud of the role that the UK plays in NATO, and I am also proud of the fact that NATO is bigger, of the fact that NATO is bigger, stronger, and a better deterrent force with 32 nations and it was force with 32 nations and it was

17:00

Rt Hon Sir Alec Shelbrooke MP (Wetherby and Easingwold, Conservative)

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when Putin first launched, and it demonstrates how Putin strategic aims in launching that invasion have come unstuck but he has failed to secure any of those aims and I would say to him that he says he wants peace, he says he wants an end of fighting, now is the time for the first time the him to demonstrate and match his words with his actions and negotiate seriously for that and negotiate seriously for that

17:01

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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May think this active state for taking this first opportunity to make the important statement? And congratulate him the work he's doing with the coalition of the willing. What's going to be important is that understanding, from that comment from a friend is understanding the terms of engagement if that is to happen and secure a peace because what we can't allow to happen is where there is woolly thinking if you welcome allow a situation where it allows it happen again, so can he assure me that he is working very hard on the agenda of in terms of engagement would be, people are

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crystal clear about what they could be to secure the peace? I can indeed. The right

17:01

Alice Macdonald MP (Norwich North, Labour )

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I can indeed. The right honourable gentleman is exactly right about that. So the potential terms of engagement are a really terms of engagement are a really important part of any potential planning. As are the terms of any piece process and peace settlement because that will set the framework for the potential role of reassurance force, but I can say to the honourable gentleman and to this House at that point, at the appropriate point this House will have a full opportunity to discuss and to debate these matters.

17:02

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I welcome the commitment of this government, both past and present Ukraine. Just like this House, citizens in Norwich stand with the people of Ukraine. As he knows, 2.5 billion was promised for Ukraine billion was promised for Ukraine after the sale of Chelsea football club by Roman Abramovich. This money remains frozen at the UK bank account as far as understand. Can this active state update us on any progress in unlocking this fund progress in unlocking this fund which is much-needed for the people of Ukraine?

17:02

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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If my honourable friend will permit me, I will double check with colleagues in the Department that leads on this and will write to her with the latest position over the Abramovich billions.

17:03

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I think this active state very much for his statement. He always speak softly but firmly and I thank him for that. I think it represents the views of the people. The news that Russia is seeking peace talks are certainly heartening but how will the Minister ensure the rush understands that it is not and never will be peace without pride. We will continue to support them until pieces succeeded. And that does not honour the sacrifice of grief or loss of education and the hope of a future with so many Ukrainians, they have given over so many years.

have given over so many years.

17:03

Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)

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If I may say so, that was a very moving intervention, and on the power of this place, it's not just ministers and government accounting to Parliament but it is Parliament finding its voice in exactly the way the honourable gentleman said. And he asked me about my message to Putin, his own message the message from this House this afternoon is strong and clear.

17:04

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Recently led a roundtable of large defence manufacturers, BAE Systems based in Christchurch, and they had one clear message which is they want to support Ukraine. Bournemouth stands too with Ukraine. So I put equally welcome the Prime Minister's commitment of UK contracts worth 30 minute pounds for drones to support Ukrainians today. The Defence Secretary say how the UK will boost jobs and growth and defence spending to support Ukraine and would he particularly say how

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Dorset defence manufacturers might be able to benefit too? Grateful to my honourable friend

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Grateful to my honourable friend for the message of support Ukrainians from his constituents and Ukrainians from his constituents and from his businesses in Dorset there. from his businesses in Dorset there. I say to him he is in a part of the country where some of the most innovative creative companies in the innovative creative companies in the defence and security field are. I'm glad to hear of the company that has recently got the 30 minute pounds recently got the 30 minute pounds contract.

And I'd say to him, perhaps you might like to look at

17:05

Rt Hon Sir Desmond Swayne MP (New Forest West, Conservative)

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the detail of the Spring Statement from the Chancellor because part of

17:05

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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from the Chancellor because part of the confirmation that she and I made when she made the statement was that when she made the statement was that from this point, 10% of the defence budget will in future be allocated budget will in future be allocated to developing, purchasing, and supplying for our own forces novel technologies just as the sort of manufacturers that he cites from his

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manufacturers that he cites from his constituency are involved in producing. What is taking place among the

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What is taking place among the allies to make up for the 40% of armaments hitherto supplied by the United States Ukraine should become

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necessary to do so? That was exactly the focus of the

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That was exactly the focus of the Ukrainian defence contact group. The purpose in pulling those 51 nations purpose in pulling those 51 nations -- and partners together 10 days ago and in securing the confirmation of and in securing the confirmation of a record 21 euros billion in extra military aid for Ukraine during the course of this year. Supported by the US with the presence of the Secretary of State, Defence Secretary Hegg Seth who welcomed what he said quite clearly was confirmation that European nations and others are stepping up to meet the challenge that he and President Trump of issue to us, quite rightly stepping up to meet the challenge stepping up to meet the challenge that requires us to do more to keep Ukraine in the fight as well as strong they potential piece we all strong they potential piece we all hope will be negotiated too.

17:06

Dr Jeevun Sandher MP (Loughborough, Labour)

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Thank you. I like to think this active state for his statement. Keeping ourselves, Europe and Ukraine save means we have to produce more fighting forces than Putin can, but traditionally in this

17:07

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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country we have focused on producing exquisite and expensive platforms. Clearly that trade-off is changing Clearly that trade-off is changing and we are seeing thousand dollar drones in Ukraine destroying $9 drones in Ukraine destroying $9 million tanks. The production trade-off between expendable and exquisite platforms has to change exquisite platforms has to change across our allies and for ourselves, and producing those drones takes months and will take years to months and will take years to upgrade our own Challenger tanks. So can the Secretary of State set out how their changing trade-off in how their changing trade-off in production will be implemented and indeed introduced in both the SDR and the defence industrial strategy to keep ourselves, Europe and

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Ukraine safe? My honourable friend is spot-on, and he provides the answer to his own question about how that absolutely necessary understanding from what we've seen in Ukraine and from what we've seen in Ukraine and in other conflict zones in the Middle East recently how it's going to be a combination of the more traditional very sophisticated sort of defence platforms we have tended

17:08

Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)

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of defence platforms we have tended to procure with the much more rapidly updated and updatable and upgradable new technologies like drones that will be set out in the strategic defence review. It will be captured in the defence industrial strategy, but I hope my honourable friend will see the announcement that I have just referred to in the Spring Statement of a determination to earmark 10% of the defence equipment spend in future from this year on the novel technologies such as one that my honourable friend

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sites. Thank you. I very much welcome

17:09

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Thank you. I very much welcome the robust tone of the Secretary of State's statement and indeed his responses, but I'm sure deep inside, he also regrets the fact that they he also regrets the fact that they have not reflected by many in the US administration command was across this House I'm sure we all appreciate the diplomatic challenges of dealing with President Trump and of dealing with President Trump and his administration, it would be reassuring if the secretary of state could confirm that at some level it has been conveyed that it is deeply has been conveyed that it is deeply unhelpful and indeed disconcerting to the Ukrainian diaspora in this to the Ukrainian diaspora in this country that President Trump does parrot Kremlin lies.

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President Trump has created this opportunity. He's created this

17:09

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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opportunity of a ceasefire, which the Ukrainians as the party of peace in this process have declared they are ready to accept. He has created the opportunity for a negotiated lasting peace. Our job is to reinforce his efforts in doing so. We are doing just that. We are supporting Ukrainians in those negotiations, supporting the US in contributing to those negotiations where we can, and the next stage of

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that is in London tomorrow. Our Prime Minister has convened the largest and strongest group of

17:10

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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the largest and strongest group of countries yet among the just and lasting peace in Ukraine. Does the Defence Secretary agree that the UK has a unique leadership role in securing peace? And that this extends beyond the provision of military assets to galvanising all our allies on upholding shared values that we help our friends stand up to bullies, that we believe in sovereignty as we protect the rules-based system? Because in the wider sense, the long-term defence

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of the UK is happening in Ukraine. I do indeed agree with my

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I do indeed agree with my honourable friend. The UK does honourable friend. The UK does indeed as they say have a unique leadership role here alongside in this case the French with the this case the French with the coalition of the willing, and what I've been struck in the discussions and involvement I've had with military planners and with defence military planners and with defence minister's and others on this is that other nations recognise that that other nations recognise that unique role and responsibility the UK and today the French have.

They UK and today the French have. They welcome it. But in each case, every nation has a contribution to make as well, and that's what we are trying to marshal at the moment through the to marshal at the moment through the military planning detail and through the reinforcement of the coalition of the willing. of the willing.

17:11

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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To what extent does the 39 member coalition accept that the United States is still an indispensable partner in any peace give operation? Because unless a peacekeeping force in Ukraine is ready and prepared to fight and to defeat the Russian

17:12

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Armed Forces, there was no point in being there. Indeed as my honourable being there. Indeed as my honourable friend said earlier, it would be just a victim of another tragedy. And to that extent, this EU UK proposed defence agreement, to what extent will it be the primacy of NATO recognised in any agreement? NATO recognised in any agreement? Because again we don't want to inadvertently send a message to the inadvertently send a message to the United States the NATO is over. We United States the NATO is over.

We no longer need the Americans, we are coming on our own because we won't be capable of doing that for decades.

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He's right. NATO is the cornerstone of our European cornerstone of our European security. That is the fundamental and the starting point for any and the starting point for any future planning. The potential for the EU and UK to strike some sort of defence and security pact or defence and security pact or agreement is recognition of the EU and the commission also having a role to play, and their recognition role to play, and their recognition that the UK needs to be involved in that the UK needs to be involved in those programs, those industry procurements and potentially as the Commissioner who is responsible for this is acknowledged, access to the schemes and the funding that may be available to underpin that.

In the question of the US's role, fundamentally what will secure Ukraine's long-term future and a lasting peace is to strengthen their own deterrent capacity. To strengthen Ukraine as they have done for the last three years but in future to deter any subsequent Russian attacks. That is one of the principal purposes of the planning for a reassurance force. But as I have argued, the Prime Minister has argued and we've said in this House, there is an indispensable role for there is an indispensable role for the US in trying to foster and bring the US in trying to foster and bring that negotiating peace, but also there was a role for the UK, for the US in helping to secure that for the long term as well.

I thank the secretary of state for his statement and his ongoing leadership on this issue, and actually the voice, shared voice we have across the chamber and the people of Ukraine will be very pleased and hopeful because of that. Does the Defence Secretary agree with me that the lessons from Ukraine is that the nature of warfare has actually changed, and will he confirm that the strategic defence review will incorporate

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these lessons into its findings? Can indeed. It's an argument I've

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Can indeed. It's an argument I've been making for some time before the last election and since. My honourable friend from his unique

17:15

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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honourable friend from his unique experience makes the same argument. Ukraine tells us the nature of warfare is changing. It's changing faster than ever driven by technology. We have to adopt any cooperate those lessons for our ability in the future so our Armed Forces are equipped to fight in the way that will be required to deter

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adversaries in the future but also to keep us safe. At like to congratulate the

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At like to congratulate the Defence Secretary on coaching the 27th meeting of the Ukraine defence contact group. While it was also

17:15

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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contact group. While it was also good to see the German defence Minister chairing, this was a rather was previously carried out until 9 January by the US secretary of defence. The Defence Secretary Hegseth did attend earlier this month, but it was a remote attendance across a secure platform. If we see in the coming weeks any reduction in US air defence Ukraine or other support, other material, or other support, other material,

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The gentleman has been here long enough to know that I won't start responding to hypotheticals like that, but I would just say that part of the US challenge of the ministration was to say to European ministration was to say to European nations like the UK, step up. We have done more and will do more in future, and one of the particular future, and one of the particular requests from the administration was that this uniquely important and that this uniquely important and , they asked us to take on that coach Erin.

Convening it and chairing it, and we agreed to do that alongside adjournment, and that that alongside adjournment, and that is why the 27th contact group was convened, was co-chaired by the German defence minister.

17:17

Blair McDougall MP (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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It would be greatly helped if we

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could have shorter questions please. I delivered a message of

17:17

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I delivered a message of solidarity from the church of St Andrews to St Andrews Church, the site of a horrific massacre. That brutality was clear and meant that Ukrainians are determined to fight, but again and again, they raise concerns about exposure and overreliance on American defence. What can we do to mitigate that, and what consideration has he given to creating a defence zone in the west

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of Ukraine? I am grateful to my honourable friend for demonstrating the solidarity of the side of the house solidarity of the side of the house in general. He will have had in his conversations from Ukrainians and conversations from Ukrainians and the civilian population that their priority is air defence. It is why priority is air defence. It is why the announcement to short-range the announcement to short-range defence missiles to Ukraine were so important, but it is also why the

17:18

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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work we have done in recent months alongside Denmark to develop new innovative technical systems to help innovative technical systems to help reinforce our defence systems that will be able to roll out more generally, and it is that generally, and it is that combination of innovation, industrial speed and partnership industrial speed and partnership with Ukraine which is reinforcing Ukraine's ability to fight for

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itself. The Secretary of State began by

17:18

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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condemning the missile attack which killed women and children. He will killed women and children. He will be aware of Russian claims that this be aware of Russian claims that this was a military target, the 60 military commanders were killed, as were NATO servicemen who were in were NATO servicemen who were in charge. Can he confirm that not only charge. Can he confirm that not only will he provide support for Ukraine but we will step up efforts against

17:19

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rationalise in the information war. I can. These were men, women and children on their way to church. They were children who were severely They were children who were severely injured as part of the attack, and I know you want short questions and short answers at this stage. short answers at this stage.

17:19

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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With other members of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I was in Ukraine before Easter where there were three separate airstrikes. Fortunately, a defence is particularly good, but that is not the case elsewhere in the country. Could we say more about this and if we are supporting discussions? discussions?

17:20

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)

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We have given the highest priority to what we can do to support and defence systems in Ukraine. I have mentioned some of the recent commitments that we have made and we will develop more of those.

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I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and he drew attention quite rightly to the huge attention quite rightly to the huge losses of Russian troops, and of course, huge numbers of losses on course, huge numbers of losses on Ukrainian sites. Does he see any

17:20

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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prospect after the unsuspecting attempts over Easter of anyone intervening to try to bring about talks between Russia and Ukraine that could lead to a lasting ceasefire that could lead to a settlement? The late Pope Francis tried to intervene with leaders. This war cannot go on forever. There has to be somebody intervening to try to bring about a process that will lead to a ceasefire and thus no will lead to a ceasefire and thus no more loss of so many people's lives.

more loss of so many people's lives.

17:21

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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This has to end. It has to end in a process that can lead to a negotiated settlement. My view is that the best chance of that, the that the best chance of that, the momentum behind negotiations what we need to throw our weight behind and try to ensure and succeed.

17:21

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I know that our constituents have been horrified by Russia's conduct over Easter, not least the Ukrainian families in our community, so does the Secretary of State agree with me that Russia's actions show that we are unified against aggression, that they deserve our support, and that we will take this opportunity to make sure this is what Ukraine will have.

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I pay tribute to the community and welcome what they have shown to Ukrainian families which are part Ukrainian families which are part and parcel of the community now. I and parcel of the community now. I hope his constituents will be reassured by the strength of the reassured by the strength of the cross-party support for their continued fight.

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continued fight. On the reports that we have withdrawn intelligence sharing with Ukraine, does a secretary agree that this is an exaggeration, and if not, that the coalition of the willing can do a workaround on intelligence sharing.

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There was a moment when intelligence sharing with Ukraine intelligence sharing with Ukraine was paused. That was restarted with was paused. That was restarted with the momentum behind the talks and the point at which Ukraine and the the point at which Ukraine and the US were back on the same page. The UK played a part in that, and those UK played a part in that, and those arrangements are an important part of Ukraine being able to withstand

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the onslaught. We need a robust sovereign industrial base. One proposal to industrial base. One proposal to help finance this is the creating of an armament bank such as the proposed defence security and resilience bank. Does the Minister agree that the government should explore this potentially game changing solution? changing solution?

17:24

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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It is part of the preparation for the defence industrial strategy because we want to find ways of maximising, going to British firms and British jobs, making a contribution not just for the contribution not just for the defence and security of the country but those of our allies as well.

17:24

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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Rightfully, this has spent a lot of time talking about Russia, but Russia can't act without Belarus. With the Secretary of State talk about what Belarus's role has been about what Belarus's role has been in this case, and whether this has been discussed in meetings he has recently had. recently had.

17:24

Chris McDonald MP (Stockton North, Labour)

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Belarus was not discussed. It is Russia doing the active invasion of the attacks. Belarus is certainly an ally of Putin but they are not active participants in this attack on Ukraine.

17:25

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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In his statement, the Secretary of State was right at the record level of spending with the industry. This is a challenge to scale up the industry, and as we have had for the development cycle for new technologies as well. In addition to support of innovation and financing, could he share whether the department are considering additional measures to support the supply chains to build capability so that organisations like our own cluster will take their own place in

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supporting Ukraine and the UK. My honourable friend is

17:25

Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)

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My honourable friend is completely right and has long experience in the industry. Having a

17:25

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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experience in the industry. Having a productive capacity which is sovereign in the UK is one thing, but if that can't be supplied by the but if that can't be supplied by the components and materials required, then the strategic strength is undermined and we are very conscious of that as we develop a new defence industrial strategy, one we haven't had in this country since the one produced in 2021.

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I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his statement. Can he set State for his statement. Can he set out what recent steps have been taken by the government to support the Ukrainian prosecutor in the Ukrainian prosecutor in prosecuting domestic threats.

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prosecuting domestic threats. Yes, the speaker will be aware of this from his recent visit to

17:26

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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this from his recent visit to Ukraine to butcher, and the honourable gentleman will know that, from the outset, the UK government under the previous regime has continued to support with legal expertise and funding where helpful expertise and funding where helpful the evidence gathering and potential case building that I hope will lead case building that I hope will lead to the prosecution that he also wants to see. wants to see.

17:26

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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The Secretary of State spoke about sending a clear signal to Vladimir Putin. I hope the US counterpart won't take that literally. I would prefer to be sending drones the way of President Zelenskyy, £25 billion in frozen Russian assets would buy an awful lot of drains. I plead with him to take the lead on this and let Ukrainians win in their finest hour.

17:27

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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I hope you had what I said in response to the Frontbench on that.

17:27

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Media reports and statements have suggested various options for the post-war borders, many of which have virgin territory. Given his commitment to adjusting peace in Ukraine, ahead of those talks tomorrow, what other red lines regarding the mediator that recognises occupied Ukrainian territory as Russian, and I include

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Crimea in that scope. He cites media reports and then says that he doesn't expect me to

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comment on them and I won't. I welcome the fact that the government has once again stood firm with Ukraine as a fight to defend

17:28

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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with Ukraine as a fight to defend territory and change borders. But we are given £21 billion worth to Ukraine, but there are billions of assets, Russian assets which were seized as part of the sanctions that we imposed on that regime, and we haven't got an answer from them yet. What progress is being made, and is he not fear that, given the transactional nature of the way the president Trump approaches these negotiations, these assets could become part of the negotiations, Russia could hold onto them and avoid sanctions and avoid paying for the carnage they have caused.

17:29

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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Work is going with allies on that question of the Russian allies assets. I say to him look, our first focus at the Ukraine defence group is what can we do now? What can we do quickly? What can we do to keep Ukraine in the fight today because it is important that we remember that this is where that estimate come from, in Brussels.

17:29

Rt Hon John Healey MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, Labour)

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It better be good!

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I returned to the question of fishing. It cannot be right for the French to leveraged fishing negotiations for defence spending. negotiations for defence spending. Will the Secretary of State agree with the need to protect our coastal communities and make clear to Paris that this cannot be macro from missiles.

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missiles. That was worth waiting for. I think the honourable gentleman for think the honourable gentleman for his question. My first focus is securing a defence and security agreement, and seeing that as the passport for British funds, British passport for British funds, British jobs as we play our part in some of the Europewide procurement developments that we need to see.

17:30

Ministerial statement: The For Women Scotland’ Supreme Court Ruling

And I thank the Defence Secretary for his statement? I will allow a

17:30

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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few moments for the frontbenchers to Which Which brings Which brings us Which brings us to Which brings us to the Which brings us to the statement Which brings us to the statement on Which brings us to the statement on the for women in Scotland Supreme Court ruling, Minister for Women and

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equalities Bridget Phillipson. Thank you. With permission I will now make a statement to update the House on the Supreme Court judgement in the case for for women Scotland Ltd versus the Scottish ministers. This ruling brings welcome clarity and confidence first women providers put up single space spaces must be protected and this is personal to me. Before I was elected to this place, I ran a women's refuge in the north-east for women and children fleeing domestic violence. I know how important it is and always was to survive is to have single sex spaces based on biology.

Places of safety of the trauma. Time in a sanctuary which allowed them therapeutic support, healing from unimaginable male violence and fear. I remember how hard countless campaigners had to fight over many decades to get any single sex provision at all to create women's refuges and to create rape crisis centres. And then later remember how hard it was to convince commissioners that young homeless women trying to heal from terrifying acts of cruelty should turn be left in mixed sex accommodation.

I will continue to fight for the provision to ensure the women safety, privacy and dignity is always protected. This government will continue as before, working to protect single sex spaces based on biological sex, now with the added clarity of this ruling. And we will continue our wider work with commitment, with compassion to protect all of those who need it right across society. Because this is a government that will support the rights of women and trans people now and always.

This is a government that will support the rights of all people with protected characteristics now and always. This is a government that will support the rights of our most vulnerable now and always. And on that, there is no change to announce. Dignity and respect for all now and always. But this is a judgement long in the making. It began in 2018 when Scottish ministers issued guidance on the definition of a woman in the eyes of the gender representation on public boards act.

That guidance stated that a woman in that act bears the same meaning as the woman in the Equality Act 2010 and included trans woman with a gender recognition certificate. The women Scotland challenge this guidance saying that sex and the Equality Act means biological sex so that a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate as a man for the purposes of the act. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, and last week the court ruled that sex in the Equality Act means biological sex.

This means that a person will be considered as their biological sex for the purposes of the Equality Act regardless of whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate. I know that the women who brought this challenge have not always been treated with the respect they deserve. And this government believes in freedom of speech and we believe in the fundamental right to protest. But in no way does that extend to criminal damage. There can be no excuse for defaced statues of feminist icons, no excuse for threats, no excuse for harassment.

Such acts seek to track down the debate away from common sense, away from the sensible view held by the majority of the British public that women need single sex spaces, that those spaces should be protected and that you could protect those spaces while treating trans people with respect as well. So the certainty that this judgement brings is welcome. And now it is time to move forward. There is now a need to ensure that this ruling is clear across a range of settings.

From healthcare and prisons to sport and single sex support groups. The equality and human rights commission as Britain's equality regulator is working quickly to issue an updated statutory code of practice to reflect this judgement. And I look forward to reviewing that code of practice in due course. And alongside these updates, I work to protect single sex spaces across society and it continues in earnest. Because for far too long under the Conservative government single sex spaces were anything but, and nowhere is that clearer than in our hospitals.

Year after year, the party opposite pledged to close mixed sex wards and yet year after year their use not only persisted, it grew massively. And year after year, often in the most vulnerable moments, women were denied the privacy and the dignity that they deserved. Time after time, Conservative ministers, including the now Leader of the Opposition came to this House and to a television studio telling the public that they were protecting single sex spaces in our hospitals. The truth was very very different.

Because as last year's data tells us, the use of mixed sex wards rose by over 2,000 rose by over 2,200 %, 2,200% in 10 years under the last Tory government. There is no better example of this, of rhetoric divorced from reality of a party playing politics with the safety of women, and we will never let them forget it. By contrast, this Government will protect women's wards and NHS England will soon publish guidance on how trans patients should be accommodated in clinical settings, and we will end the practice of mixed sex wards once and for all.

It is not just in our NHS that we will act on behalf of women, in prisons we will continue to protect women's safety with single sex accommodation. In women's sport, I've always backed integrity and fairness. I allergy matters for competitive sport and sporting bodies have issued rules to reflect bodies have issued rules to reflect this. So in our prisons, in our hospitals, in sport, in a whole host of other spaces, was true before the ruling remains true after the ruling. This government protects safe spaces for women under the equality act 2010, and for too many years we've seen the heat dialled up in this debate by the party opposite with no real action to protect women spaces.

While the use of mixed sex wards increased under their watch while an epidemic of violence against women and girls spread across the country while women's health was neglected. This Labour government will deliver for women through our Plan for Change, driving down waiting lists month after month, tackling misogyny throughout society and once and for all delivering justice for fibres of violence against women and girls. I know as well the many trans people will be worried in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling.

So I want to provide reassurance here and now that trans people will continue to be protected. We will deliver a full trans-inclusive ban on conversion practices. We will work to equalise all existing strands of hate crime, and we will review adult gender identity services so that all trans people get the high quality care that they deserve. The laws to protect trans people from discrimination and harassment will remain in place, and trans people will still be protected on the basis of gender reassignment, a protected characteristic written into Labour's Equality Act.

This government will offer trans people the dignity that too often they were denied by the party opposite. Too often a convenient punchbag, too often the butt of jokes made by, made in this place by the party opposite, culminating rather shamefully in the previous Prime Minister standing at this despatch box trying to score cheap laughs from his back and she's at the expense of vulnerable people. By contrast this government is clear, trans people deserve safety, opportunity and respect.

This verdict is about clarity and coherence in the eyes of the law. But the Supreme Court judges delivered along with that verdict a vital reminder. This isn't about the triumph of one group at the expense of another. It's not about winners or losers. Not about us or them. And that is the message I want to

17:40

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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reinforce here today in this House. Everyone in our society deserves dignity and respect. Those values dignity and respect. Those values are not and never will be a zero-sum battle. Dignity and respect for all. Those are the values that lift us up and set us free. Those are the and set us free. Those are the values that define and distinguish any modern and compassionate any modern and compassionate society, and those are the values that this government will do everything to promote and protect everything to promote and protect now and always.

And I commend this statement of the House.

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Badenoch. I think the Secretary of State for advanced sight of her statement. for advanced sight of her statement. Even if it was -- mostly a shameless work of fiction. I could not believe work of fiction. I could not believe This afternoon. In 2021, the Prime Minister said it is not right to say Minister said it is not right to say only women have a cervix. In 2022, he said it is the law that trans women are women. In 2023 he said, " women are women.

In 2023 he said, " 99% of women don't have a Venus." I know what a woman is, and I always have. The people of this country know what a woman is. We didn't need the Supreme Court to tell us that. But this Government did. A Labour government so desperate to jump on a bandwagon that they abandoned common sense along with the SNP who put rapists in women's prisons and of course the Liberal Democrats. The Supreme Court ruling is a powerful victory for the determined women behind For Women Scotland and the people all over the UK who know how important it is to give privacy and dignity to women and girls who need it.

But it follows years of battle, individual women take action to uphold the law at great personal cost, losing their jobs and their reputations. A few weeks ago I met the Darlington nurses who have been forced to bring legal action after a male nurse started using the changing room. Even their union the Royal College of Nursing refused to represent them. Women should not have to battle the NHS or their employers through the courts. Why has it been such a battle? Because something as simple as biological reality became politicised and corrupted by activists, pushing this ideology as foolish politicians cheered.

Even the Secretary of State who said that this is personal to her stated just last year that men should access women's spaces. Whether it is female victims in our courts being forced to refer to their male sex attackers as she or the NHS using confusing gender neutral language putting the health of women at risk, this is a serious matter. At every point we have fought for women. We faced hostility from activist groups and those opposite. In 2020 when we rejected Labour's calls to introduce self video in 2021 when the then Home Secretary the Member for Witham ordered lease forces to stop recording offences by trans women in , the current culture secretary said the crimes committed by men should be recorded how they wish.

And those convicted of serious sexual offences should be held in jails that match their chosen gender. It was crazy then, and it's crazy now. I spent years battling abuse from Labour MPs as a four to uphold biological sex in government and as I blocked the SNP introducing their mad self identity laws. I will take no lectures from them on what to do on this issue. Women and gay rights groups like the LGB alliance or even refused stands at the Labour Party conference.

The idea that they have supported this all along is for the birds. The Foreign Secretary described opponents of self ID as dinosaurs. Labour now says they know what a woman is and the transgender people should use services and facilities designated to their biological sex. They never said this before. This is a U-turn, but we well commit. Now we have legal clarity, what the Prime Minister shows encourage and do the right thing? Will he apologise to the Member for Canterbury who faced so many security concerns as she was hounded out by the Labour Party and was reviewed by the Prime Minister and many lend their -- many Labour MPs sitting there looking at me supported what the Supreme Court ruled against.

With a crackdown on groups defacing statues of savages with the same energy he reserves for his plate go opponents or will we see more two-tier justice because the last time we saw Labour MPs standing next to them it was with no rebuke whatsoever. This active state ensure that the EHRC has the government's full support in its enforcement of the code of practice and in particular, will she condemn those Labour ministers who described Baroness Fox entire judgement is appalling? We need to root out gender ideology from our institutions.

This Government now has a serious job to do as many organisations will still fail women, so I ask the following, as Minister for Women and equalities, published guidance for schools that made clear the toilets and changing rooms must be provided separately for girls and boys. She scrapped that guidance. Will she stand up to the unions and urgently publish what she now admits is the law? She also scrapped our HSE guidance to prevent schools from teaching contested gender ideology as fact. We should now publish this guidance and remove materials that must take the law? Which act to stop passports and licences being issued with self-declared rather than legal sex? Will the government support our amendments to the data bill to ensure digital ID systems record biological sex accurately? And finally, hit the secretary of state.

She says that she is here to protect transgender people. Many of them were misled by Labour's misstatements on this issue. Some are now left very anxious. She has not provided any reassurance and she's should not use them as a shield to protect her failure. This isn't the end of the matter but the isn't the end of the matter but the beginning of the end. So much to do and the Conservative Party and my leadership will be relentless in ensuring the government does the ensuring the government does the

17:46

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Many would run from a record like hers on these matters, but not the right honourable lady. She and the party opposite had 14 years to provide clarity on the issues they now claim to take an interest in, and the Supreme Court confirmed that Labour's Equality Act is the basis for single sex spaces and protection. But they didn't. They didn't provide that clarity. But before I turn and say a bit more about the record, if the honourable lady would have some patience, I will respond to her questions.

I have supported countless women and children fleeing appalling male violence, sexual violence and domestic of useful I have campaigned for decades in women's rights. I know more than most the importance of spaces for women. I thought for them, I delivered them, I round them, and during my time, running that refuge while Labour was delivering the groundbreaking Equality Act which this ruling confirms sets in law the basis for single sex spaces, what was the Leader of the Opposition doing? She was busy hacking the website of the leading architect of the Equality Act for ever the keyboard warrior.

And she has learned nothing from her party's crushing electoral defeat last year. She held the post of Minister for Women and Equalities for two years and did precisely nothing, provided no clarity in the law and nothing to improve the lives of women which got materially worse on her watch. She comes here claiming to speak for women but let's look at her record and her party's record, an increase in stalking offences, prosecutions and convictions for domestic nearly half since 2015, the rape charge rate at a record low, survivors of sexual violence waiting years for justice.

The 2000% increase in the use of mixed sex wards in over 10 years. That is their record. And in terms of the questions that she asks, she asks about the Equality and Human Rights Commission and their Rights Commission and their statutory code of conduct. I have set out that I am expecting an updated version of that as quickly as is possible. I will work with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to implement that practice to make sure that everyone has the clarity that they acquire, and I expect HMRC to work on that matter.

She asks about gender questioning guidance and she asks about guidance. I am afraid that it is another area that is laughable. Merely months before the election was called, they published a version of the draft guidance for gender questioning children. And since that time, we had the final review published by Dr Hilary Cass. It is right that we ensure that guidance aligns with the final review, and on the RHS E guidance, that consultation concluded after the election. We couldn't be clearer.

We will always protect single space and we are focused on delivering for women. While the Leader of the Opposition describes maternity pay as excessive and called the Minimum Wage Act, we

17:50

Sarah Owen MP (Luton North, Labour)

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are improving protections of pregnant women at work, ensuring that women can take maternity leave and come back to good secure jobs. We are expanding childcare and bringing forward the single biggest piece of child protection legislation in a generation to legislation in a generation to protect young women and girls. And it was Labour's groundbreaking Equality Act that provides the basis Equality Act that provides the basis for single space for biological women has been set out today. This women has been set out today.

This Labour government has a plan for change that will deliver for women. It is time for her party to get off-line and get on board.

17:51

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Far from this ruling providing clarity, trans-intersex and non- binary people are instead anxious and unsure about where this ruling leaves them. Legally and practically as they go about their lives. Does the Minister recognise that this ruling was made without a single contribution from trans people themselves and will she ensure trans, intersex and non-binary people will be involved in any upcoming new guidance, and if so, how? how?

17:51

Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)

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I do believe this ruling provides much-needed clarity. I do recognise the chair of the select committees concern in ensuring that all people are treated with dignity and respect, including trans people. And my expectation is that through the developing of code of practice and guidance, we will engage with a range of stakeholders with a range of different views as they develop

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that work and set it out in full. I thank the Secretary of State

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I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. I respect the independence of the Supreme Court independence of the Supreme Court and the ruling it has made to interpret the law as it stands. As I do, the concerns of many women and do, the concerns of many women and do, the concerns of many women and the fears of the LGBT community. I also respect what the Secretary of State had to say about her experience of working in a refuge, and I agree, there is no length we shouldn't go to to ensure protection for women in that situation.

But I'm sure from what she has said, the secretary of state will agree with me that that shouldn't be at the cost of the human rights and the security of another vulnerable group in society, which is what this threatens to do. And I would ask her if she could explain where now those transgender people who are fleeing violence, where they can go for refuge if they will be completely excluded. For years, we have seen this intolerable debate with two vulnerable groups have been pitted against each other, two vulnerable groups afraid of the same things, by Lentz, and mostly from men.

So now the challenge for this government is to live up to the spirit of perhaps one of its proudest achievements in its previous government, the Equality Act in protecting everyone, and I would ask the Minister, Doshi think it would be acceptable if this government is not able to do that that we see trans-women forced into men's toilets to face goodness knows

17:54

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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what sort of aggression, potentially what sort of aggression, potentially violence there. And I would ask her if she would confirm what she says if she would confirm what she says about protecting trans rights because this government needs because this government needs leadership from them, and I have written to the Minister and asked her if we will see legislation to do her if we will see legislation to do that because we must remember that what we are dealing with here is not what we are dealing with here is not some hypothetical.

It is real lives, real fears, real concerns amongst the LGBT community because Equality Act and should never be.

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Order, minister. As she says, I know she has

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As she says, I know she has written to me on this topic and I would be happy to meet with her or remember of the ministerial team to remember of the ministerial team to discuss this further. Where we can agree is that dignity and respect should be for all within our should be for all within our country, women and for trans people, and trans people should not face discrimination or harassment on the discrimination or harassment on the basis of who they are, but I believe it is compatible to ensure that we have a society that treats everyone have a society that treats everyone with dignity and respect while ensuring that single sex spaces can continue to exist for biological women who require that safety and dignity following periods of terrible abuse and I think it is important that there are services that are available for trans people in addition, and often, it is the case that some of those services are much better provided for those with specialist knowledge and expertise in order to deliver that provision.

This should not be seen as being a conflict and a ruling from the Supreme Court, whilst being clear Supreme Court, whilst being clear about the importance of biological sex, was also at pains to stress that trans people do retain clear that trans people do retain clear protections within law and should be able to live their lives free of harassment and discrimination. I have already been contacted by several different LGBT Q and trans- organisations in my constituency who are really concerned and frightened about the potential limitations of this judgement.

Will the Minister commit to meeting with trans people from my constituency such as Squarespace, pride and Monmouth pride to hear their concerns about the potential impact of this ruling?

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I do note my honourable friends

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I do note my honourable friends concern and I can assure her that I will continue to meet with a range of stakeholders in this important of stakeholders in this important area because I agree that no one should face prejudice or discrimination because of who they discrimination because of who they are and that is why we are working with the Home Office to deliver our commitment to equalise all existing commitment to equalise all existing hate crimes to make them aggravated offences. We will work right across this house to ensure that we this house to ensure that we maintain single sex spaces for biological women and ensure that trans people have bought and respect including access to healthcare services.

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Will the Secretary of State

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Will the Secretary of State confirm whether she will take action to ensure policies and lessons in

17:57

Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)

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schools are not led by external organisations by contested gender ideology.

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As I set out my response, we will publish revised guidance when it comes to our HSE. It is an important principle that parents understand what is being taught their children within schools and we will ensure

17:57

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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that that is maintained.

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Over the last few days, calls to switchboard the national LGBT helpline in my constituency has skyrocketed and callers who are in fear for what this ruling means to fear for what this ruling means to them because trans people, frightened to use public loos today, frightened to use public loos today, no one thing, and as the Secretary of State agree that we should all be clear about this, the overwhelming clear about this, the overwhelming threat to women and to all of the trans community is the violence that

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we suffer from men. I agree that male violence

17:58

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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remains a very serious challenge that we face as a country, a that we face as a country, a challenge that this Labour government is determined to confront but I would say to her that the but I would say to her that the ruling of the Supreme Court was clear about the importance of biological sex but I would not want biological sex but I would not want any trans person across the country to be fearful. I believe that to be fearful. I believe that everyone has the right to be treated with dignity and respect not to face discrimination or harassment and that is why we will back the police to ensure that action is taken against anyone who behaves in that

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way. I would be grateful if the

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I would be grateful if the Secretary of State could focus on her government and the future her government and the future implications of this judgement. In her statement, she said NHS England

17:59

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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will soon publish guidance on how trans-patients should be accommodated in clinical settings, and if I can read to her what the Worcestershire hospital trust has in its guidance currently, this is patients should always be treated as the gender they identify as regardless of what the transition looks like or how long they have shared their identity with others, patients should always be in an environment that aligns with their gender identity. Would she say to the hospital trust that they need to the hospital trust that they need to actually act very quickly to change that guidance?

17:59

Preet Kaur Gill MP (Birmingham Edgbaston, Labour )

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My colleagues and officials in the Department of Health and Social Care are in contact with NHS England to ensure that guidance is set out rapidly to give the clarity that is required arising out of the Supreme Court judgement and if the lady would share with me the details that she has just read, I would happily make sure that is investigated further.

18:00

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I welcome the ruling from the Supreme Court and the ministers statement. The Supreme Court has been clear that it means biological sex. The question now turns to how we make sure that the Equality Act is properly understood and implemented, so can it be stated how she will ensure that public bodies, sports bodies, regulated sectors and so on comply with the accent that so on comply with the accent that women's safety, privity and dignity is protected.

18:00

John Lamont MP (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Conservative)

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As I said, we will work with HRC to provide an update to the statutory code of practice. We expect them to do that as rapidly as possible, recognising this is a detailed piece of work. Service providers arising from the Supreme providers arising from the Supreme Court now have the clarity and confidence that was always there in confidence that was always there in

18:01

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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The Supreme Court running goes a long way to guarantee the rights of safety and women of girls, but does the Minister agree with me that while it's right for the government to finally ditch the divisive self ID agenda wonderful and prove it was totally wrong for Scottish Labour to totally wrong for Scottish Labour to back the SNP Gender Recognition Act reform bill?

18:01

Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )

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Mind standing is that the Scottish government do not intend to progress their gender recognition reforms. My officials will work with the EHRC it will in turn also work with the Scottish government. I believe Scottish ministers have indicated that they wish to engage with the EHRC on this guidance, which is an important and welcome development.

18:02

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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And Pat Robson a constituency which shows tolerance to people from all backgrounds and unlike the political hot potato this has become in this place and in political dialogue. I have a constituent who has been transitioned in the 1970s. She has used female toilets now for more of her life than she ever did any other toilets. Are we saying any other toilets. Are we saying that her dignity and her respect that the Secretary of State has talked about it will be in any way talked about it will be in any way improved if there was a ban on her using the toilets she has been using the same many years?

18:02

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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The ruling from the Supreme Court made clear that the provision of single sex spaces is on the basis of biological sex, but whatever say to my right honourable friend and her constituent is that through the development of the code of practice that the EHRC will be setting out, they will make sure the businesses and others ensure there is dignity and respect for all, that there is appropriate provision of toilet facilities so it no one, including trans people will feel unsafe when using public toilets.

18:03

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Everyone must be able to access services with the dignity upheld and privacy, respect including women and trans people. But following this appeal court ruling, many people are feeling confused and concerned. We must not allow this to lead to further heated arguments and toxicity. So what steps is the Minister taking to develop the critical guidance needed to give businesses and public bodies clarity on how this ruling should be prevented so everyone is treated with dignity they deserve?

18:03

Charlotte Nichols MP (Warrington North, Labour)

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We will work with the EHRC on that guidance. They will present a revised code of practice that I will review and present in due course. It's important they do that as quickly as possible, but this is a complex area that must be undertaken thoroughly, including engagement with a range of stakeholders, including businesses for the reasons the honourable lady identifies.

18:04

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Far from clarity, this verdict raises as many questions as it answers. And it has been referred to by the civil servant who oversaw the equality acts drafting and passage as having, " Significantly reinterpreted Parliament's intentions." These questions are primarily about the purpose of a gender recognition certificate is now, whether exclusion from single sex spaces as may be lawful or required but also in protecting women spaces such as toilets from predatory men pretending to be trans women, what exactly stops those same men from now accessing them, pretending to be trans men? pretending to be trans men?

18:04

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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I understand the concern that my honourable friend expresses, and why she raises the question she does today in this House, but I do have to say to her that the position of this government is that the Supreme Court has provided clarity and confidence in this area, particularly when it comes to single sex spaces being on the basis of biological sex, and the basis for biological sex, and the basis for that was the Equality Act that the last Labour government introduced.

18:05

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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MPs to get the clarity from the judgement. As people have always

18:05

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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known what a woman is. The right known what a woman is. The right honourable lady says she will implement and assure the public services are fully compliant with the legislation which is good. Could you clarify, she has talked about you clarify, she has talked about NHS single sex wards reserved for NHS single sex wards reserved for pilot your females and males, does she mean trans people will be cared for on male boards? for on male boards?

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for on male boards? The basis for NHS provision and the basis for single sex services of all kinds will be on the basis of biological sex.

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Thank you. Can I firstly welcome

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Thank you. Can I firstly welcome and thank the Secretary of State for the measured way which she has delivered the statement but also for delivered the statement but also for her robust work on this issue? Last week's landmark Supreme Court

18:06

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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week's landmark Supreme Court judgement not only provided clarity but some long overdue common sense. For too long the issue has at times been toxic and has caused a great deal of harm to both women and trans people. So could I ask the Secretary of State to confirm to the House that her department is liaising with the equalities and human rights commission to seek assurances that they will work not only outpace but also to set some clear timelines in relation to updating the statutory guidance, and will she also ensure

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that any guidance that is now unlawful is withdrawn? I can give my honourable friend

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I can give my honourable friend the assurance that we will work as quickly as possible with the EHRC in this important area. I also think this important area. I also think she is right to highlight the she is right to highlight the importance of good temper when it comes to different views on this topic, recognising that people have

18:07

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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topic, recognising that people have held strongly held views over a number of years, but where we do that we respect one another and the way we disagree, we do not descend into hate filled rhetoric or involve ourselves in some of the unfortunate and deeply regrettable protests in terms of the nature of the defacement of statues and hate filled rhetoric. Now is the opportunity, arising from the Supreme Court judgement to draw a line under this, to make sure the right guidance is in place, to make

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sure that clarity is there for all. A peek at this active state words

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A peek at this active state words around reducing the temperature on this. There are not a lot of people who are hurting a huge amount this

18:07

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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who are hurting a huge amount this week. As a result of the announcement made, and I appreciate the commitment to reduce the temperature on that, and I hope that

18:08

Cat Smith MP (Lancaster and Wyre, Labour)

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everybody would sign up to that. S&P everybody would sign up to that. S&P welcomes the clarity offered on the definition in the Equality Act and knows the judgements points of interaction between the 2010 and 2004 act. Also note the commitment 2004 act. Also note the commitment of the sector of state and the EHRC to deliver the guidance as quickly as possible on the new code of practice. Had I to ask this active state if and when she will be replying to the letter sent from the replying to the letter sent from the Scottish government seeking a meeting with UK Government in meeting with UK Government in earlier course, and would urge her to undertake that meeting as soon as possible please.

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I will of course be happy to engage with colleagues from the

18:08

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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engage with colleagues from the Scottish government. I will respond to the letter as quickly as I can. I'm very conscious that I

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I'm very conscious that I represent many trans-, intersex and non-binary constituents, and that non-binary constituents, and that the representations I've had made to me in my office over the past few days has been a very clear message that they are feeling particular victimised and quite scared for their own safety. Some are trans women and some are trans men who seem to be very much lost from this debate. But the one thing that really unites them is that they are worried about their day-to-day safety, so can I ask the Minister to provide some assurance to trans people right across the country that the Equality Act is still there and can protect them from discrimination and harassment?

18:09

Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)

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My honourable friend as absolutely right. They retain protection from discrimination and harassment, and I can say very clearly to this House that trans people should not be treated, should not be victims of discrimination or harassment. They deserve dignity and respect, and that's why it's important that we also ensure that trans people have access to high quality healthcare services and that we also clampdown on hate crimes, including those that are targeted at LGBT people.

18:10

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I welcome the Supreme Court's ruling and congratulate For Women Scotland and others who have campaigned tirelessly on this despite the abuse threats and attempts to silence them. Could the Minister please confirm what discussions either the Prime Minister or anyone on the front bench at the time had with Anna Sauer, the Scottish Labour leader when he whipped his MSPs to vote in favour of the SNP's Gender Recognition Act Reform belle? And does the Labour frontbench now regret some of their previous decisions where they have decided against women across the country against women across the country voicing their very real concerns?

18:10

Dawn Butler MP (Brent East, Labour)

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Where I can agree with the honourable lady is that no one should face threats, intimidation or harassment for expressing their views. That's an important principle in our country around freedom of speech, but it should not cross a line. Comes to the approach we take in Scotland, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party has indicated that he welcomes and supports the Supreme Court judgement.

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I don't anyone in the House has butch lesbian friends or have been with them when they been told to get out of women's toilets, but I have. And it's not pleasant and not nice,

18:11

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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And it's not pleasant and not nice, so those people that are using this as a political football again should be ashamed of themselves. People didn't understand if you are saying that trans women have to use men's toilets and is my honourable friend said, trans women have to use men's toilets and how you going to stop them? Asking to see their genitalia? It makes no sense. Does my honourable friend agree with me that the service providers for refugees who provide a vital service for women in desperate need and often use their discretion are now fearful that they can no longer use their discretion when providing services? discretion when providing services?

18:12

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

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The Supreme Court judgement set out the single sex spaces are provided on the basis of biological sex, but I do recognise the concerns that my honourable friend raises. Lesbians should not be treated in a discriminatory way, and we must ensure that they are toilets and facilities available for everyone within our country. So I say to her that through the guidance that the EHRC will set out, there will be additional clarity provided in the

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areas that she has identified. Thank you. In some ways the biggest question today is why it biggest question today is why it took a Supreme Court decision to confirm the equalities act? I've met

18:12

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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confirm the equalities act? I've met with so many... I've heard so much regarding women who are considering to stand as candidates who are reluctant to do so because of the toxicity of public life, and I think this debate is probably one of the most toxic in terms of misogyny going towards women. Unlucky I'm a man and having experienced to the same extent what women have experienced but would she take this moment to reject and to stand up for all women who have campaigned on this issue, reject the abuse and hostility that is put towards them that the importance of their dignity and respect and thanks women Scotland for the work they have done putting this forward?

18:13

Tonia Antoniazzi MP (Gower, Labour)

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I do recognise the good intentions that the honourable gentleman has when he asks that question but I tell him like many women in this House, I've experienced that too and we know what it's like as women to face that kind of abuse, and it's important that whilst we recognise that there can be no place for that kind of abuse for women in public life, we have a responsibility to change the culture, to change the club and to encourage women to come forward and stand for elected office.

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Since I've been in this House, I have felt the force of the lobby, have felt the force of the lobby, which has made people and MPs across this House stand there and say that trans women are women. What happened

18:14

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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trans women are women. What happened last week was Supreme Court said that sex and the Equality Act is actually biological sex. That I welcome. But what is the Secretary of State going to do to deal with the types of damage or the damage that mermaids and stone more have calls for a generation, that's 14 years, under a Tory government, what steps is she going to take to make sure that they rectify the damage they've done to a generation of trans and gender questioning

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children? I recognise my honourable

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I recognise my honourable friend's long-standing interest and friend's long-standing interest and campaigning in this area. She is right that the Supreme Court judgement provides clarity in terms of biological sex. But I'd also say

18:14

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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of biological sex. But I'd also say to her where it comes to support the gender questioning children, where we are talking about children and young people, this has to be about their well-being because we are often talking about young people who are very vulnerable, who were experiencing real difficulties in their lives, and Hilary Cass's review made clear that young people in that situation do need support, do need protection, and that is why we will this year also publish revised gender questioning guidance for our schools as well to provide

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that further clarity that is needed. I'd firstly like to ask sec of

18:15

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I'd firstly like to ask sec of state how we are all going to be asked to prove how about sex? asked to prove how about sex? Because as the other honourable member said, this is not just about people who are transgender, non- binary and intersex but also people who don't conform to gender stereotypes. I do need to share with you my constituents, one who told me it seems I'm going to be ghettoised into trans basis at another he said this ruling sends a message we do not belong however much we contribute.

So what does the Secretary of State suggest to say to those constituents, and will she join me and the honourable member Bournemouth East in meeting Dorset's space youth project for LGBT young people when they visit Parliament people when they visit Parliament people when they visit Parliament

18:16

Nadia Whittome MP (Nottingham East, Labour)

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I would say that the ruling was clear that whilst singles spaces are on the half of biological sex, transgender people are protected from harassment, and we will always ensure that trans people have the dignity and respect that they deserve.

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Research shows that half of trans people already fear using public

18:16

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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people already fear using public toilets so I am deeply, deeply concerned about the impact of

18:16

Nadia Whittome MP (Nottingham East, Labour)

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18:16

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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comments by the Minister and the prime ministers spokesperson that trans people should use the toilet that many of them would not feel that many of them would not feel comfortable or safe in. So I ask, how will trans people's exclusion from toilets they have long used be from toilets they have long used be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim as the Supreme Court judges and Equality Act dictates, and with the Minister like to and with the Minister like to clarify that there is nothing in law in fact which requires trans women in fact which requires trans women to use men's toilets or trans-men to use women's toilet or non-binary people to use one corresponding with sex a assigned at birth.

18:17

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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The Supreme Court's judgement was clear on biological sex but I do understand and recognise the need to ensure that there is provision, including toilet facilities and other provision in place for everyone within our society. That is why many service providers also provide unisex provision, when many providers will also put in place enclosed bathrooms that do not enclosed bathrooms that do not require people to make that decision to ensure their dignity and privacy to ensure their dignity and privacy is respected.

That is important for all people in our country.

18:18

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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A practical question. Does the ruling apply retrospectively so if anyone was to have lost their job for their views or one title in for their views or one title in sport for example, does it apply retrospectively? retrospectively?

18:18

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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I think the gentleman is preferring to employment law courses and I would have to do defer to legal colleagues. The judgement set out was that it was the Equality Act 2010 that is the basis for single sex spaces being determined on the basis of biology. They determined that was always the case, had always been the case since 2010, and it was his party that failed to provide the clarity in 14 years.

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The unanimous Supreme Court judgement has provided clarity about

18:18

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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judgement has provided clarity about the application of the Equality Act 2010. And it is incredibly important that hard earned women's rights and single sex spaces are protected whilst also protecting our trans community who continue to face considerable discrimination, so the needs to be a solution whereby they are also treated with dignity. Does my friend agree that this entire issue needs to be dealt with with a great deal of sensitivity and sensibility rather than it being treated as a political football or

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as a culture war issue? I agree that the judgement provides much-needed clarity and certainty, including service certainty, including service providers, but I also agree with my honourable friend that we need to make sure that this is dealt with

18:19

Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)

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make sure that this is dealt with sensitively. We are talking about children who are facing issues around well-being and I want to make sure that right across society, women have access to single sex spaces that they need and deserve, and he has said, they have long campaigned for, but the trans people to receive appropriate support, including healthcare support and do not faces, nation or harassment on the basis of who they are.

18:20

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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While the Supreme Court judgement provides clarity to others, it brings fear and uncertainty to others. The ministers statement today still leaves vulnerable trans people lost in amazed of complex equalities law. She talks about dignity respect. It takes one sitting, our prison system is dangerously dysfunctional. So what safeguards will now be strengthened so that no trans person is placed in greater danger of this ruling.

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I disagree that it was complex. I think it was very straightforward think it was very straightforward and clear and has provided clarity that has been lacking for many years. To her question around prisons, of course it is important

18:21

Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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prisons, of course it is important that vulnerable prisoners receive support but the basis of single sex spaces are determined on the basis of biological sex, but of course, yes, where there are vulnerable prisoners, things need to be put in place separate to that.

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I am astounded that the Leader of the Opposition seeks to betray herself as a champion of women's herself as a champion of women's rights when she has refused to recognise the reality of discrimination and harassment of

18:21

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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discrimination and harassment of women and strip the funding from so many of the services that protect women. I would also like to pay tribute to the many members in this chamber who have worked publicly and privately to protect single sex spaces and the rights and dignity of trans people. The judgement clarifies that single sex spaces do not have to offer services to trans-women. Does my right honourable friend, can she say whether they are obliged to refuse

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services? Spaces that operate on a single

18:22

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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sex space basis must do so on the basis of biological sex but of course, providers are able to offer, should they choose, inclusive services so long as they are clear as to who they are offering services to, and I agree that what we saw under the last government was a shameful record where it comes to prosecution of rape, prosecution of domestic violence where rape in this country was all but decriminalised.

18:22

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I am sure the Secretary of State will recognise that there are many women, former supporters of her party who voted for candidates like me because of the record of biological women. However, in the meantime, even at a number of trade unions claimed they will ignore the ruling and in some cases even campaign against it, what plans does the government have to ensure that the government have to ensure that all trade unions are made to recognise that the supreme court ruling applies to them to.

18:23

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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I don't know where the honourable lady has been since July but her party suffered a devastating general party suffered a devastating general election defeat. That is why she sat there and not over here. there and not over here.

18:23

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Residents have been in touch with me about the decision last week. I know the secretary of state mention this but can she commit to the agenda that we do have to advance the dignity and respect of trans people over the course of this parliament?

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I understand my friends concern for what I would say to trans people

18:24

Carla Denyer MP (Bristol Central, Green Party)

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for what I would say to trans people across our country is that we are working with the Home Office to deliver our commitment to equalise all existing strands of hate crime to make them aggravated offences. We will also bring forward a draft purposes bill that will be trans- inclusive. That must not cover psych logical support, treatment or nondirective counselling but we are clear that the conversion practices are abuse and we will legislate to stop them.

18:24

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Many people are feeling deeply

18:24

Carla Denyer MP (Bristol Central, Green Party)

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worried about the Supreme Court judgement and what it means for their ability to live their lives in

18:24

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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their ability to live their lives in dignity and in privacy. So, will the dignity and in privacy. So, will the Secretary of State make a commitment to uphold trans people's fundamental rights including the right to privacy given that the gender privacy given that the gender recognition act was created in part to do that, but the Supreme Court ruling risks dismantling that by forcing trans people to out

18:25

Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)

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themselves multiple times a day whenever they visit the toilet in their workplace, in public

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buildings, or in hospitals. I am sorry but I just disagree with the questions that the with the questions that the honourable lady poses. The ruling from the Supreme Court was clear from the Supreme Court was clear that whilst single sex spaces are to be delivered on the basis of biological sex, the judgement also set out the trans people must be set out the trans people must be free to live their lives free of discrimination and harassment and retain clear protections within law.

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retain clear protections within law. The Minister will know that there is considerable concern and fear amongst transgender, intersex and

18:25

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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non-binary people across the UK, including in my constituency, but will the Minister outline what urgent steps the government is taking to reassure my trans and non-binary constituents that the non-binary constituents that the right to remain protected under UK law and to ensure that this ruling is not misinterpreted or misused to

18:26

Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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is not misinterpreted or misused to undermine their dignity, safety and access to services, or lead to discrimination on a wide scale discrimination on a wide scale including Bromley challenging people trying to go about their lives in

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our communities. The rights of trans people are respected and retained following the Supreme Court judgement. The ruling was clear about that and it is important that we emphasise that point here today. Alongside that, we will ensure that hate crime is properly recorded and punished properly recorded and punished because trans people and all people deserve to live their lives free from discrimination, harassment and hate. hate.

18:26

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Patients deserve to be treated in single sex wards but be treated especially when having intimate exams by commissions of the gender and sex that they wish, so is she concerned about the Gen medical Council that is going to carry on with its policy to remove and hide dialogical sacs from the medical register? What discussions she having with the council and regulators about this issue? regulators about this issue?

18:27

Zarah Sultana MP (Coventry South, Independent)

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It is important that patients have the right to single sex provision and to be accessed around clinical treatment but I just point out to the honourable gentleman that he might want to have a word with the Leader of the Opposition about the massive increase in mixed sex wards under his party.

18:27

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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In Britain today, trans women are denied safe housing, refused healthcare and left waiting years for gender affirming treatment. This is not accidental. It is about a marginalised community fuelled by people in positions of power including this very chamber, so let me be clear, trans people are not debate or an ideology. They are human beings and trans rights of human rights, so can I ask the Minister to ensure that doesn't pander to hate. But reverse its damaging rates and unequivocally defend the protections it provides for trans people across the UK? Lady arson number of questions there.

What I will say is that trans people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect and they retain rights to live their lives free of discrimination and harassment as set out in the Supreme Court judgement. She asked about puberty blockers. There will be no change to government policy in this important

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area. Now we have got confirmation from the Supreme Court as to the the Supreme Court as to the definition of what a woman is. Could the Secretary of State confirm that

18:28

Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)

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all public sector and private sector bodies will apply that definition

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with immediate effect? The Equality and Human Rights Commission will set out a statutory Commission will set out a statutory code of practice that will provide further clarity. But I would just further clarity. But I would just say to the honourable gentleman that I will take no lectures from his party about the importance of party about the importance of defending women's rights even that one of his own number that sits on those benches was convicted and went those benches was convicted and went to prison for assaulting his former partner.

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partner. There are some days I am proud to be an MP and the level of debate in this chamber, and some days like today where quite frankly, the Leader of the Opposition was absolutely appalling. She continues to talk over people, not listen, laugh at people while they are talking about an issue that is very, very serious. People out there are scared as a result of this judgement. Could you maybe let me speak? Sorry, apologies. Could the honourable member allow me the politeness of not speaking over me? My question, and I will ask a My question, and I will ask a question, I do appreciate that opinions are running high, but opinions are running high, but please do ask your question and put it on the record.

18:30

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Does the secretary of state agree with me that the debate in this chamber is listened to by those people who are today scared and the behaviour of the Leader of the Opposition in talking over people, laughing at people, and when men violence was mentioned, the opposite benches laughed. That does not show women or trans women in this country.

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I agree that where we discuss these matters, they are sensitive and they do generate strong feelings

18:31

Rebecca Paul MP (Reigate, Conservative)

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and they do generate strong feelings and it is right that in this house, we are unable to engage in robust discussion on issues that might be difficult but I accept the point that my honourable friend is making that we do need to treat one another with respect and understand the with respect and understand the So much for dignity and respect, a?

18:31

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I welcome the clear ruling from the Supreme Court and I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. I'm really disappointed there was no mention of schools, at there was no mention of schools, at all, in her statement. Many schools are teaching gender ideology as if it is a fact. They are not dividing it is a fact. They are not dividing a single sex facilities and single sex sports teams. How will she sex sports teams. How will she ensure that they are now, going forward, comply with the rules and the law, as it has always been.

18:32

Melanie Ward MP (Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy, Labour)

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I suggest to the honourable lady Melanie Melanie warned. Thank you. Following the welcome clarity from the Supreme Court that Labour's equality act has always contained the right to single sex spaces for women, as well as protections for trans people. Does the Secretary of State agree that the SNP Scottish Health Secretary must urgently to grip and ensure the must urgently to grip and ensure the NHS is upholding the law. Especially, in my area of five.

Especially, in my area of five. Where it appears that Sandy Peggy was disciplined by NHS managers, for trying to access her right to use a single sex changing room.

18:32

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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My honourable friend will understand that I'm in no position to comment on ongoing cases, what I can say to her is that I agree the Supreme Court ruling demonstrated that the equality act, the last Labour government introduced is the basis on which a single sex provision, based on biological sex should be delivered. should be delivered.

18:33

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Thank you, the Secretary of State says the ruling provides clarity, but the trans constituents I met in correspondence with over the weekend provides anxiety and fear. Local media Outlook last week Christian article documenting a 60% increase in trans hate crime, in the last decade, in order to launch it alone. Many of those women the rhetoric around this will only feel that. Can the Secretary of State confirm how they will make sure that trans people who already disproportionately targeted and not marginalised further and that the guidance addresses the safety and inclusion as seriously as it does

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the legal clarity. The ruling from the Supreme Court

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The ruling from the Supreme Court was clear, but he is right that there can be no place for hate and no place for people to be targeted, on that basis. It is important that action is taken against those who perpetrate hate crime.

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perpetrate hate crime. Like many of my colleagues today I am intrigued by the cynicism I am intrigued by the cynicism around this topic. I hope we can focus on how we may make any changes focus on how we may make any changes were practically. The Secretary of State agrees with me that all innocent in this House should be mindful that there are human beings affected every comment we make on this matter and how we behave will enforce how the wider public haven, which I hope will be with kindness

18:34

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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I agree Madam Deputy Speaker that everyone in our society should be treated with dignity, with compassion and respect. And the Supreme Court ruling, was setting Supreme Court ruling, was setting out its position on a biological sex

18:34

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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out its position on a biological sex was also clear that trans people retain important protections, in law, including where it applies to discrimination and harassment. I do believe it is important that all of believe it is important that all of us share that message, in understanding the ruling and making

18:35

Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)

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understanding the ruling and making sure that it is well understood, across our country. The last thing that any of us would want is for

18:35

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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trans people to be fearful. Thank you. I want everyone treated with dignity and respect, as the Supreme Court made clear. Should women have to rely on a court ruling, followed by guidance, and at some point from the EH RC, rather some point from the EH RC, rather than the clear view of this House. What the Government is view of primary legislation in this area?

18:35

Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)

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The ruling of the Supreme Court was that the equality act, which was

18:35

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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passed by this House the basis for the protections that exist in law, on the basis of a biological sex. on the basis of a biological sex. I have had a very constructive discussions with constituents, and both sides of this debate. But does the Secretary of State agree with me that those who seek to promote trans rights, essentially aggressive threatening women who disagree with them in the most disgusting ways. They do tremendous harm to the trans cause and should realise how counter-productive their slogans are to the cause and they are attempting

18:36

Neil O'Brien MP (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston, Conservative)

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No one should be targeted, through No one should be targeted, through the use of violent placards, containing abuse, or hate and he is absolutely right, I agree with him. Not only is that wrong, but as he says it is completely counter- says it is completely counter- productive. It does nothing to advance the discussion that those who present those placards would

18:36

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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who present those placards would wish and it is important, that whilst I understand that people have strong opinions, in this area, that through any discussion, or any debate that does not take us to hate filled rhetoric, threats, or threats

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of violence, or intimidation. The Secretary of State says that her position is very clear and hasn't change, at all. Over the years she is promising to work at years she is promising to work at pace now. Yet nine months into her time as education secretary, the guidance that was consulted on, over guidance that was consulted on, over a year ago has still not been published. Can the Secretary of State help schools by answering this State help schools by answering this question, is it right for an school to socially transition a child without talking to the parents

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first? We will set out guidance, this year, for gender questioning children. It is important, I will answer the question. I will answer the question directly, and the right honourable lady would just allow me a moment. We will publish the guidance, later this year, I recognise the importance of providing clarity to school leavers. providing clarity to school leavers. And we inherited a draft version, it was important we looked at and engage with stakeholders, following the final review of the final class review.

Yes, I do agree that it is important that parents are involved in important decisions about their children's lives. They were always alongside that of the potential safeguarding considerations that also need to be taken into account. That is why we are looking at these areas, very carefully to make sure that we get that right and we provide a clarity that school leaders, quite rightly are asking

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for. The Secretary of State is absolutely right, we need to conduct this debate with respect and compassion. This ultimately is about people's lives and their rights. That is why there is such concern in That is why there is such concern in the trans community at the moment, including in my constituency which Trans Trans community Trans community in Trans community in the Trans community in the country Trans community in the country for stop can she confirm two things for me.

First, how will she ensure that trans people have faith that their existing legal protections will be upheld and not rowed back on. upheld and not rowed back on. Secondly he the Government ensure that trans voices are heard, as public bodies run at their response to this ruling.

18:38

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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On the two areas and that my right honourable friend asked, yes, absolutely, the trans people retain important protections, in law and the ruling of the Supreme Court put that beyond doubt. Secondly to the question he asked around ensuring that trans voices are heard, it will be important that the EHRC, as part of their consultation in developing the code of practice required to provide further clarity, engage with a range of voices as part of that and am confident that will happen.

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Given that Article 2 of the Windsor Framework ridiculously

18:39

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Windsor Framework ridiculously requires Northern Ireland to be in a dynamic alignment with EU quality directives, which include embracing self identification. What steps will the Government take to ensure that this common sense ruling of the this common sense ruling of the Supreme Court is applied consistently and without adulteration, across the whole United Kingdom, now and always.

18:40

Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)

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I will review the questions that the honourable gentleman us and

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write to him with a full response. Thank you. The Supreme Court

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Thank you. The Supreme Court The interpretation of law, set down The interpretation of law, set down by Parliament. It is almost like an anticipated Leader of the Opposition. The public are watching and where ever they stand on this debate they are not seeing a potential Prime Minister, in the potential Prime Minister, in the Leader of the Opposition. Because trans people are worried and they are scared, it is important to give are scared, it is important to give reassurance. The Supreme Court clearly said that trans people remain rejected under the equality act, regardless of whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate.

The Supreme Court said and could not rule on a definition of a woman, other than its use in the equality

18:40

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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act. As I say, my constituents who are trans and their allies are are trans and their allies are deeply scared. Will the Secretary of State stand at the dispatch box and repeat her support for trans people, repeat her support for trans people, in my constituency and around our country and I want to repeat the invitation from a honourable friend,

18:41

Rt Hon Graham Stuart MP (Beverley and Holderness, Conservative)

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the member for North Dorset and Poole. They have a place here. They are listened to and respected and

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are listened to and respected and have anonymity, will she meet with me. I will review the request that my honourable friend makes. If he could provide in detail so I can do that. I do agree with him about the I do agree with him about the importance of reiterates that trans people should be free to live their lives, with compassion, dignity and respect and the ruling of the Supreme Court made it very clear that they retain legal protections that they retain legal protections and it is important that we all convey that.

convey that.

18:41

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Thank you, can I thank the Secretary of State for her statement and her emphasis on the need for sensitivity, good temper in dealing with this topic. And in that spirit, could I ask her to salute the courage of JK Rowling, Sharon Davies and indeed the honourable member for Canterbury.

18:42

Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, over many decades, fantastic women have campaigned for the protection and creation of a single sex spaces, have fought against violence against women and, have led some brilliant campaigns and I pay tribute to all of those women, many of them unsung heroes whose names we will never hear anywhere and whose names will never be mentioned in this chamber for the fantastic campaigning efforts. It is only because of the amazing work of the feminist from the 1970s onwards, that we have centres and women's refuges.

centres and women's refuges.

18:42

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Can I welcome the debate by the Secretary of State. I want to put on record my thanks to for women in Scotland for their tireless work over a number of years, with the public face of many women who have experienced discrimination, abuse and personal loss, from making the argument that the Supreme Court made last Wednesday. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Supreme Court held up the rights of lesbians to be able to associate with same-sex attracted women, what steps has on my right honourable friend taken to ensure that lesbians and gay men are able that lesbians and gay men are able to associate without the face of challenge.

18:43

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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The Supreme Court ruling makes that clear and provide the clarity and that many have been asking for, and that many have been asking for, including lesbians and gay men and the EHRC statutory code of practice will provide a further clarity. I agree with my honourable friend, no one should have faced abuse or

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intimidation or abuse of holding illegitimately held opinions. The Scottish National Party may see this as a judgement made by judicial gates. Most people will see

18:43

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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judicial gates. Most people will see this as a cessation of common sense

18:44

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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and will wonder why the court had to decide what was a man in what was a woman. Given the intolerant

18:44

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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woman. Given the intolerant threatening and violent response, from the trans lobby. Can the Minister insurers that this Minister insurers that this judgement will not be undermined, by the guidance which she issues to this House? And vulnerable people, sports teams, hospital patients, sports teams, hospital patients, teachers, children will be protected by this and not be adversely by this and not be adversely affected, as they have been in the past. Could she also gives assurance of that she will ensure that it is

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raised at the highest level of government, that Northern Ireland must be included in these protections. The Supreme Court judgement was clear and is welcome and necessary, but what it also set out was that

18:44

Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)

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the basis for that protection for single sex spaces is rooted in the equality act. Those provisions were always there but now we have the clarity that many have been calling for. Whilst I know it is understandable concern about the behaviour of a minority that crosses the line, into conduct that is potentially criminal and certainly unacceptable, I think we do need to tread with just a bit of care, that we do not lump everyone into that category. I'm sure that wasn't at the honourable gentleman's intention.

Setting out that whilst there can be no place for intimidation, or threats, or threats of violence, people do have the right to express their opinions, in

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line with our long-standing right, in terms of freedom of speech. The Equality Act is a vital piece of legislation that is there to of legislation that is there to

18:45

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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of legislation that is there to protect the essential rights of oppressed groups, including women and trans people, in a world still far too dominated by sexism and bigotry, including a transphobia. I use the equality act in plenty of time to represent people, as a lawyer, before I came into this place. The House will no doubt discuss the impact again, but when we look online, in some of the we look online, in some of the media, can we try to ensure that the debate respects all groups, including trans people, because some of the stuff spilling out of the right wing press and online, in recent days is a truly, truly awful.

It has been raised with me, by trans constituents who are just trying to get on with their lives.

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The Equality Act was one of the government's proudest achievements,

18:46

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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government's proudest achievements, ensuring people are able to lead their lives free from discrimination and prejudice. I agree that in recognising that important and a landmark piece of legislation, when we discuss what can be difficult and sensitive issues for some, we seek to do so with understanding and as he says, people want to get on and live their lives, free from discrimination, harassment and

18:46

Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)

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In 2022 at Wembley Community Centre, a woman came out and said she had just 40 Conservative because they are the only party who knows what a woman needs. Can the Minister be more specific on a time when she will issue guidance to schools about the gender-questioning children. year.

18:47

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I welcome the statement by my right honourable friend. I think the way she has reasonably dealt with questions at the House today is testament to her fortitude and ability. A number of people from my constituency have made comments on this and there is concern around elements harassment and discrimination that some may take this as an opportunity to target the trans community. Can she guarantee

18:47

Lee Anderson MP (Ashfield, Reform UK)

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the Equality Act stands and prevents harassment and discrimination? Where is the equality act does stand and provides clear protection. It is

18:48

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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provides clear protection. It is important have access to single-sex species but it is also important trans people have access to high quality health care and appropriate quality health care and appropriate support services and, in addition, the ability to see police take

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the ability to see police take action against hate crime. I is a man and a woman is a woman

18:48

James Asser MP (West Ham and Beckton, Labour)

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and anybody watching this today will think the lunatics have taken over think the lunatics have taken over the asylum, which they clearly have. I do not need a drilling to tell me I do not need a drilling to tell me that I should not be in a woman's changing room. For more clarity, I changing room. For more clarity, I would like to ask, can a woman have

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a penis? I tell you what, I should not beat up women. Maybe he should speak

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to his colleague. There is great concern among the

18:49

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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trans community and the wider LGBTQ community that in this popular stage there may be a move away from progress on LGBT rights. I welcome the statement that there will be guidance. Can she make sure that is clear and understood? Can she assure the LGBT community and the South that this government stands behind the advancement of LGBT rights and we will not roll back the progress of the last 30 years or the gains of the last Labour permit? Check my right honourable friend is right to draw attention to the advances made

18:49

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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over many decades to make sure LGBT people are treated with dignity and people are treated with dignity and can participate in life in a way that was not the case for many people many years ago. We have made people many years ago. We have made enormous progress in tackling prejudice and discrimination and this government will always ensure this government will always ensure that, whatever someone's background, they have every opportunity to take part in public life and achieve all they are capable of.

The Equality they are capable of. The Equality Act is one of the proudest achievements of the last labour government and enshrined in law the

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women to escape harassment for women and for trans people, too. I thank the Secretary of State

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I thank the Secretary of State for her answers and stick. This ends

18:50

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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for her answers and stick. This ends years of confusion around sex-based law and being a woman as a matter of biology, not law. This judgement is welcomed by women and children. Does the Secretary of State agree this is not a reallocation of rates but an underlining of protection and what discussions will take place with colleagues to CNN, for example, two posters for birthing people and terminology and other such pictures being used in the NHS and instead returning to the correct definition? Today is a good day for women and a

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great day for the law and the wonderful day for the people and the truth. I agree that the ruling of the

18:51

Jonathan Hinder MP (Pendle and Clitheroe, Labour)

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I agree that the ruling of the Supreme Court was clear and it is important. It provides welcome clarity in a range of areas and put clarity in a range of areas and put it comes to issues of identification, for example access to healthcare treatment, it is for a good reason that we make sure that there are sex-based services for women, for example those who are breastfeeding, going through pregnancy, and more. Alongside that, we must make sure healthcare is

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available and accessible to all. We have made so much progress in

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We have made so much progress in a society by breaking down sexist a society by breaking down sexist stereotypes which said women had set stereotypes which said women had set roles and should look and act in a certain way. They have been broken down and exposed as the fig constructs that they are because sex is the only factor which distinguishes man from Berlin. Beyond that, we should be able to live without conforming to

18:52

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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live without conforming to stereotypes. This movement came along which argued that actually all of the feminine things and stereotypes we have in fighting to break down are in fact the things which make a woman, not sex - regressive, backwards, nonsensical. Will the Secretary of State join me in saluting the courageous women who stood up and pointed out the absurdity of this argument? Will she commit to putting out this ideology from public institutions?

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It was over many decades that feminist campaigners from the 1970s onwards worked incredibly hard to onwards worked incredibly hard to make sure women were able to divorce and plan that happened they were

18:53

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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and plan that happened they were able to see their children and that they got protection at work and did not face discrimination and could access women's refuges, rape crisis centres and that in the early 1990s rape was finally banned in marriage and I pay tribute to the women over many decades you have brought us to a much stronger position and to the building trailblazers from across political parties who have ensured we have far more women represented we have far more women represented here and now in this place than ever before.

18:53

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Dignity and respect for all - those are the values that set us free and define and distinguish any modern and compassionate society. I thank the Secretary of State for those remarks in her state today. those remarks in her state today. Will she reiterate one more time that when this government talks about increasing supporting equality for all that it really does mean all?

18:54

David Smith MP (North Northumberland, Labour)

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My honourable friend is right. This is about dignity and compassion for all. That is an important

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message we should all take from this House. Final question from the backbenches.

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backbenches. I thank the Secretary of State for her response to the ruling. I worked with a charity for eight worked with a charity for eight years and contrary to some of the debate in the last few days, it is

18:54

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, Minister for Women and Equalities (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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debate in the last few days, it is almost always possible to find a solution where you can support people on a single-sex basis and those who identify as transgender. I have to add that the last eight years that I did it was not helped by the lack of clarity of the Conservative government. Does the Secretary of State agree it is important to reaffirm that trans people remain protected under the equality act and that the Supreme Court ruling is focused on clarifying protections that have always existed in the Equality Act based on the protected characteristic of sex?

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He is right in his assessment and I pay tribute to the work my honourable friend did over many years when it comes to supporting homeless people across the north- east. I agree it has always been possible to ensure single-sex places were delivered under the Equality were delivered under the Equality Act on the basis of my logical sex but I'm glad providers can now be but I'm glad providers can now be confident and crystal clear. I would observe in addition that those rights were hardfought and hard-won and receive significant pushback and he would doubtless have had the same experience I had where commissioners would suggest that mixed-sex accommodation was appropriate when in many cases we were talking about vulnerable young women who had been exposed to sexual violence including sexual abuse within the home and what they wanted and needed was single-sex accommodation.

It is important in that context that we ensure that services are available in an appropriate manner for anyone who needs them and that does mean that on occasion trans people will also require separate provision so that their needs can be properly met - healthcare, support needs, and

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intimidation. That concludes the statement. I will give a few moments for the

18:56

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)

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We We now We now come We now come to We now come to the We now come to the state We now come to the state and We now come to the state and and We now come to the state and and the

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update on British Steel. With your permission, I wish to

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With your permission, I wish to make a statement on the steps the government has taken since the steel industry Special Measures Act came into force. On April 12, the into force. On April 12, the government took the decision to reform Parliament to take swift, reform Parliament to take swift, significant action on British Steel. Honourable members will be aware that this was the first time Parliament had site on a Saturday in over 40 years. Our attendance was testament to the urgency and importance of the issue at hand, which was to stop the immediate closure of the last furnaces at Scunthorpe.

The action that we took on April 12 and the measures taken since matter greatly for this country and are of enormous importance to thousands of steelworkers and their families. I'm pleased to inform the House that this afternoon, British Steel has cancelled redundancy consultation is. I know that many British Steel employees will be breathing a sigh of relief at the news. It is regrettable that when this government took office, we inherited a steel sector in crisis and an iconic British company facing an existential threat.

Since day one, we have worked tirelessly with British Steel and the trade unions to find a resolution. Blast furnace closures at Scunthorpe is an outcome this government was simply not willing to allow. To that end, I want to stress that this kind of state intervention is not one that we intend to replicate in other situations or industries. We recognise that unprecedented action was warranted for what was a truly unprecedented situation. As honourable members will know, the legislation be introduced which was passed that weekend gave us the power to direct the board and workforce of British Steel to make sure they got paid and ordered the raw materials to keep blast furnaces running.

It permits the government to do these things itself of circumstances demand it. We have wasted no time in enacting these powers and taking the urgent action required to keep the blast furnaces let at Scunthorpe. We have secured the raw materials needed to keep the last furnaces operating. We continue to work at pace to secure a steady pipeline of materials. The pickles were on site to help British Steel -- officials were on site to help British Steel within hours of the Steel Industry Act becoming law.

I'm delighted to say British Steel will keep operating for the last remaining glass policies in contrast to the plans to shut one of them down earlier this month. It will come as no surprise to honourable members that the workforce and supplies and communities have supplies and communities have expressed deep gratitude for the action taken at Scunthorpe which has set to thousands of steel jobs. The immediate emergency has passed, it is right honourable members also asked questions about what is next.

To secure the long-term future of British Steel but has not been properly invested in four years the modernisation program, ideally with the private sector partner and furthermore we will have to look beyond any individual company and ensure a secure and thriving future for the whole steel sector and that is why we continue work to publish a steel strategy this spring. All options are on the table as you begin to address the long-term to suitable future of the company. My officials met on April 16 and it was a respectful conversation and the dialogue will continue as we find a way forward in the national interest way forward in the national interest I also want to say thank you, thank you to those who sent us messages to say we did the right thing to say British Steel, thank you to everyone who has offered practical support, but most importantly, thank you to the workers and managers at British Steel who have heard our call to produce the steel we need to deliver our Plan for Change, to keep the Scunthorpe site and everyone working on it safe to do so in a way which reduces the scale of financial losses.

They have shown remarkable resilience and dedication and a supremely difficult time and have served the plant, the community and the nation. They have promised us there are better days ahead for British steel and we agree we are British steel and we agree we are The next chapter of British Steel's history. We have assure this House time and again that steel has a bright future under this government and I will restate that today. Steel

19:02

Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)

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is fundamental to Britain's industrial strength and identity, as industrial strength and identity, as a global power. We will never hesitate to protect it. We have committed to update both houses as policy develops and a longer term strategy is formulated. I can reaffirm that written updates reaffirm that written updates regularly will be forthcoming. Let there be no doubt, this week is not there be no doubt, this week is not the end, it is not the end of the work and it is not the end of the negotiations.

Thanks to the actions negotiations. Thanks to the actions we have taken it is also not the end of British steel, I commend this

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statement to the House. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for advanced sight of her statement, I join her sight of her statement, I join her in thanking the Scunthorpe workers for their efforts over the last few weeks. We are here, once again, weeks. We are here, once again, because the government had no plan. They failed to prepare, they bundled negotiations, they took too long to listen to the warnings and what do listen to the warnings and what do we have to show for it, this botched nationalisation.

A potential bill for the taxpayer, stretching into for the taxpayer, stretching into the billions. I say billions, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it remains entirely unclear how much this bungled 11th hour decision will cost, while the assets still belong to China. I hope that members on all sides will agree that this is a complete mockery of transparency and accountability and I hope the relevant select committees will take it upon themselves to conduct their own enquiries. In stead of a statement, from the Treasury today, the Chancellor is running to the IMF, in Washington to explain how she broke the UK economy.

Steel nationalisation, the IMF downgrading a growth forecast, trade union summits in a number 10. It is all sounding a bit 1970s. A simple problem is that we do not know the answers to any thing as the government has failed to publish an impact assessment. The can the Minister confirmed to this House, when they could plan to do so. Has anyone asked over the ONS whether anyone asked over the ONS whether British Steel will be classed as a public owned entity. Has the ministerial team discussed the impact of this takeover with the Chancellor, there already evaporated vigour.

How much has the department spent or given commitments to underwrite, a straightforward question that deserves an answer. Given that her department had no budget for revenue support of steel, additional funds from the Treasury so that other sectors, or support for British exporters do not pay the for British exporters do not pay the price. We have seen and no further detail of the proposed steel strategy or any confirmation of a longer term plans to protect steelmaking. Labour refused to back coking coal mine to produce some of the raw materials that furnaces rely on.

Instead they wait for shipments to arrive from halfway around the world and most importantly, the government has not set out how it tends to reduce the enormous burden of skyhigh energy costs instead of the energy secretary seems dead set on delusional policies that drive energy prices, in this country, even higher. You can't make steel sustainably, when you have the highest energy prices, in Europe. Industrial energy, in Birmingham and

19:06

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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this country are four times higher than those in Birmingham Alabama. And you can't make steel if you

19:06

Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)

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And you can't make steel if you don't have called. As a Nissan's Alan Johnson has said today, the

19:06

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Alan Johnson has said today, the simple fact is the UK is too expensive, once you've paid for your electricity, gas, your national electricity, gas, your national insurance, we are too expensive. Any Industrial Strategy that doesn't Industrial Strategy that doesn't We are here, once again, there is no steel strategy, there is no Industrial Strategy, no export strategy and no energy strategy. Perhaps in reply, the Minister can share a single strategy this

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government actually possesses. It is getting harder and harder

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It is getting harder and harder to understand quite what the opposition's policy is on steel. It opposition's policy is on steel. It is all over the place. On the one hand, they ask us questions about hand, they ask us questions about costs. But they say they had negotiated a modernisation plan with British Steel, but they won't tell us how much money they were willing us how much money they were willing to throw a plan. Their proposal apparently was to build on two sites, if Jingye were asking us for £1.2 billion to build on one side, how much taxpayer's money was the government putting on the table to fund too.

We need answers to these questions. I nationalisation. The shadow Business Secretary who was also, as we know the financial secretary, when a Liz Truss crashed secretary, when a Liz Truss crashed the economy, said he backed full nationalisation of British Steel. On the other hand, the Leader of the Opposition, on radio fours said nationalisation should be the last resort. It seems a bit muddled. Finally he asked questions about the cost of energy pricing. Energy cost of energy pricing. Energy prices doubled under the Tories.

UK steel were really clear and have said UK steel, the trade body for the steel industry has said that it is the U.K.'s reliance on national gas power generation that leaves us with higher prices. It is not too much clean energy, but too little. -- UK steel. The mother asked a reasonable question about the cost and I hope people understand that the matters at the moment are sensitive and commercially confidential and I hope he will be assured that we will publish accounts, in due course.

We are securing interiors, we are reviewing things like health and safety and other critical roles. There are very regular meetings happening to between the departments and British Steel, as he would expect, of

19:09

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

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course. We will publish those details in due course. He asks the point about the coal mine, British Steel have told us directly they Steel have told us directly they couldn't use that coal because of the sulphur content. You also need the sulphur content. You also need coke ovens, to to turn the coal into coke ovens, to to turn the coal into coke and the coke ovens were closed on his watch, several years ago. The reality Madam Deputy Speaker is that the Tories failed the British Steel sector, this Labour government is securing it.

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I want to thank the government for saving British steel. A Select Committee has been a very clear it Committee has been a very clear it is essential to retain the ability to make primary steel in this to make primary steel in this country. And the steps were taken a couple of Saturdays ago have helped

19:10

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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liver exactly that. The government deserves credit for that. We however have to say there needs to be this new strategy that comes forward as soon as possible. There's gotta be a clear long-term vision for the flood tide of steel from China. We need to be using public procurement much more aggressively to support our industry. Energy costs do need to come down and we need a plan. Can the Minister tell us when she plans to bring forward that steel strategy, because ultimately what is good for the steel industry is good for Scunthorpe.

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Can I thank my honourable friend at the right honourable member and the chair of the Select Committee. the chair of the Select Committee. He is of course right that the steel strategy is all the more important now, than when we devised a need for now, than when we devised a need for it, when we were in opposition, and committing £2.5 billion for that committing £2.5 billion for that strategy fund, in our manifesto. We are looking at how we use that financial support, we are also looking at primary production and looking at primary production and how we may do that.

We are investigating a future market opportunities, how we can increase opportunities, how we can increase the demand. Kim and and of course that is incredibly important I have

19:11

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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And along with it steel Council. We And along with it steel Council. We need to look at the availability of a suitable sites for future investments, scrap, as he says is very important. How do we improve a UK capability for stop trading overcapacity is a huge issue and one we share with our colleagues, the Americans, which is why the tariffs, we have the same problems, we should be trying to solve them together. Jobs and skills, this is a whole package of measures that we are package of measures that we are developing, we are going to do it as quickly as we can and we will be publishing, in the spring and we publishing, in the spring and we will make sure all is a plan for the country and a plan that will secure steel in the UK.

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Thank you. I would also like to

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Thank you. I would also like to thank the Minister for sight of her statement. I would like to associate statement. I would like to associate myself with the gratitude that the Minister has extended towards the Speaker, honourable members, parliamentary staff and most importantly, the workers and managers of British Steel. It is managers of British Steel. It is incredibly welcome news that both blast furnaces in Scunthorpe will blast furnaces in Scunthorpe will continue to operate. Allowing those who are employed at the site, the over 35,000 families, in this country who would have been affected by its closure and Britain's national security, to breathe a momentary site of relief.

With the Minister join me in thanking the workforce of British Steel that ensuring that the furnaces haven't been allowed to go cold. Is the government taking action after the Conservatives spent far too long pondering over what to do. The Minister has committed to delivering a steel strategy, by the end of the a steel strategy, by the end of the spring. They have a five weeks left, to produce this. Can she confirm that this will be published, before 31 May? And that parliament will have the opportunity to debate it.

When we were here, a few Saturdays

19:13

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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ago, I asked the Minister to confirm that the pension fund of employees and former employees is not in and former employees is not in deficit and that all company contributions are up-to-date and contributions are up-to-date and that assets of the scheme have not been transferred to the holding been transferred to the holding company, or any offshore businesses. I'm waiting for confirmation for this. Finally, can the Minister give this. Finally, can the Minister give a guarantee that there will be no redundancies are made, as a result redundancies are made, as a result of the action taken by the Steel Industry (Special Measures) Bill act.

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Can I thank the spokesperson for the Lib Dems for his support for the the Lib Dems for his support for the interventions that we have made and interventions that we have made and for his helpful questions. We will publish an impact assessment, in due course and including classification considerations and I will ensure considerations and I will ensure that the questions he has asked, which he is right to point out I did which he is right to point out I did not answer last time, I am also not not answer last time, I am also not answering this time.

I will ensure that I do. We have said that we will come back every four weeks, with the statement, but I will write to him separately to make sure that he has the reassurance that he needs. And I can confirm, I cannot give the honourable gentleman a date for the steel strategy. I can assure him that we are working as fast as we can. The issue is a difficult one, because we are talking about

19:14

Jessica Morden MP (Newport East, Labour)

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spending public money of 2.5 The issue is a difficult one, because we are talking about spending public money of 2.5 billion on this. We money of 2.5 billion on this. We have to make sure we do that, in the correct way. And the roundtables we have held, the advice from the steel have held, the advice from the steel Council, the work that we are having done, through the material processing Institute, looking at some of the economic issues that we some of the economic issues that we need to grapple with and we have to

19:15

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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need to grapple with and we have to get that right. This House must, when we have the steel strategy, must have the opportunity to come and talk about it and you can be and talk about it and you can be assured that it will be the right thing for the steel industry.

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Last week I met Wendy, and representatives at landward steel wood and clearly and welcome the action taken at Scunthorpe. It is an action taken at Scunthorpe. It is an absolute contrast to when we had no steel strategy for 14 years. Can the Minister be mindful that the promises are made by Tata to invest in assets, which we need to see in assets, which we need to see delivered. And the plans to get their fair share of the steel fund their fair share of the steel fund and procurement, what progress can we see soon on this?

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I thank my honourable friend for the question, of course she is right the question, of course she is right to raise the issue of tartar investing in assets and the future of that site which is incredibly of that site which is incredibly important. -- Tata. The transition board as well, the Secretary of board as well, the Secretary of State for Wales, convenes along with the Welsh government and we are working at pace to sort of understand what those future understand what those future investments could be.

And she is right to be demanding that the steel right to be demanding that the steel plan is of everywhere and not just one part, or another part of the UK. We do want to make sure that we will ensure that the nations and regions

19:16

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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will all benefit from the, whether it is the funding we put in place, whether it is the mechanisms we put in place to deliver things like in place to deliver things like procurement, scrap and all of these things. Of course it is not just Tata, in Wales, it is another that is important and an impressive is important and an impressive company as well. She can be reassured on that front and always happy to have conversations with colleagues, from all areas, about

19:17

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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colleagues, from all areas, about It is welcome that the notices

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It is welcome that the notices have been withdrawn and there will be a sigh of relief from the steel industry and in terms of what happens next, as well as a national happens next, as well as a national strategy, the Northern Lincolnshire area needs a strategy of its own to maintain the local economy. Could she commit to an early meeting of she commit to an early meeting of the MPs from the affected area as the MPs from the affected area as well as the counsellor and the Leeds North Regional Councillor has produced a document which highlights the way forward.

I know that the be extremely helpful.

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I thank the honourable member for

19:18

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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I thank the honourable member for his support for his community and his question. I am happy to meet with the leader for North with the leader for North Lincolnshire as I have done previously and I'm always happy to interests of the whole area. interests of the whole area.

19:18

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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I congratulate the Member for Scunthorpe for his tireless advocacy. He and his constituents should be recognised and I asked the Minister if she could say how this decision has been received by the

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workforce, customers, suppliers? I thank my honourable friend for

19:19

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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I thank my honourable friend for the question and the comments she the question and the comments she made about the right honourable member for Scunthorpe on the work he has put in in securing a future for British Steel. The Secretary of State went to British Steel at Scunthorpe just after the legislation was passed and I think it is fair to say there was great it is fair to say there was great relief for the intervention we took and workers will be asking what happens next and how we secure the future of the site.

19:19

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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On behalf of my constituents who have sweated blood, unfortunately, as we know, electric car technology cannot make virgin steel, only a blast furnace. If the government committed to maintaining the permanent ability to make virgin steel?

19:20

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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The Secretary of State made clear in the debate the Saturday before us the capacity for primary steelmaking production is very important and we have to look at how we deliver that and there are new ways using hydrogen and other European countries are now using and developing this and we will ensure,

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whatever the future brings, we have the right level of production in this country. The government has my

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The government has my wholehearted support for the action it has taken with regard to it has taken with regard to Scunthorpe. It's important for Scunthorpe itself and the workers there and for the supply chain as there and for the supply chain as well. In that regard, I raise one area of concern I caught my area of concern I caught my honourable friend will look into. I put a letter from Ian Walker, the chairman of Rotary Engineering, a

19:21

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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chairman of Rotary Engineering, a long-regarded highly specialised company in my constituency who provided services to British Steel last November and are still waiting for payment, despite regular attempts to get correspondence which have been ignored. If it is they who are in difficulties could it could be many more small- and medium-sized businesses. How do we make sure these important companies are actually paid and able to survive?

19:21

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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My honourable friend makes an important point. The supply chain for these big companies, whether it is Tata, British Steel, others, it is really important and of course I will look into the particular issue that he raises about Rotary Engineering. I will make sure that the right thing is being done. the right thing is being done.

19:22

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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I thank the Minister for this statement. The good news about the saving of British Steel. We have not discussed the timeframe to move towards nationalisation. We support that and encourage the government to push on towards it and then we can accelerate towards the modernisation program mentioned in the statement because the new love in this House for blast furnaces should be encouraged and it will be the right thing to do to support a thriving steel industry.

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Thank you. We know that Reform

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Thank you. We know that Reform are recent converts to steel. Some of us had been supporting the industry for some time. The industry for some time. The

19:23

Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)

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honourable gentleman makes a fair point about what comes next. Our position remains that we think the best way forward is to have investment alongside government and we will protect the future of steelmaking in terms of national security supply chains as well. No options are of the table and I hope the honourable gentleman will understand that nationalisation is the most likely option. We would prefer a commercially run business and that investigating all options and nothing is off the table and we will continue having many conversations and as soon as we have an answer, we will alert the House.

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Really steel for wind turbines,

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Really steel for wind turbines, equipment for carbon capture, and the expansion of grid the expansion of grid infrastructure. In short, it's an essential part of expanding energy security and the country and the

19:23

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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security and the country and the Prime Minister told the Liaison Committee that the date for Scunthorpe was 2034. Can my honourable friend confirm that as a crucial element of the modernisation agenda, securing Scunthorpe, is so important to every part of the economy that she and her colleagues are looking at how that grid

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connection can be brought forward. I thank the Chair of the Select

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I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for the important question and he makes the point that we need steel for all of the green energy, steel for all of the green energy, wind turbines, carbon capture, energy security. There is an energy security. There is an important point which is since the election, £43.7 billion has been committed by the private sector to committed by the private sector to invest in clean energy in this country and those people on the other side of the House who are questioning net zero or putting at risk thousands of jobs that we will see delivered through clean energy, you have got to be careful what you wish for because that investment is incredibly important for our country and the green energy sector is growing 10% faster than the rest of the economy and these are important things, important jobs, and he makes

19:25

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)

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an important point about the grid and we have seen this in Scunthorpe and with different companies where they can be 15-20 years away from they can be 15-20 years away from grid connection, making investment not viable. The Secretary of State spoke to the Department Of Energy and Net Zero last week and spoke and Net Zero last week and spoke about getting rid of the queue, the zombie projects, and making sure we

19:25

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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zombie projects, and making sure we prioritise what is important and we will make sure we do everything we can to improve those connections as

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Scunthorpe. I take at face value what the Minister has said that British Steel has a bright future. She did not mention any figures other than the global figure of £2.5 billion. Will she tell the House when she expects to publish the accounting officer assessment which is required when public money is committed? Then we can test at the Public Accounts Committee whether those rules for spending public money are being

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adhered to, particularly in terms of feasibility. The honourable gentleman makes a good point. We are spending public money and must be incredibly careful in the way that we do that. What we spend will be accounted for with the spend will be accounted for with the Department of Business and Trade, as

19:26

Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)

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Department of Business and Trade, as was the case with the insolvency in 2019 and I will be updating the House and I will bring that forward for the Robbie Katter in terms of those figures and he's right to resist. -- And I will bring that forward to the House in terms of those figures. This is something that is did it for. How we make spend the money is what we are trying to devise through the Plan for a Steel which I hope will have a lot of scrutiny in this House and

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the Public Accounts Committee. I wholeheartedly congratulate my

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I wholeheartedly congratulate my honourable friend for the sterling work. On April 11, the Leader of the work. On April 11, the Leader of the Opposition said that they had Opposition said that they had negotiated a steel modernisation plan and then when the government brought in legislation to save brought in legislation to save Scunthorpe, she said she was still negotiating with her boss. There was

19:27

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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negotiating with her boss. There was never any agreement for an electric furnace on Teesside, as she claimed, and as much as my colleagues and I support the concept. Will the Minister confirm it was the Conservative Party that presided over the end of virgin steel making in Port Talbot and would have done the same in Scunthorpe were it not for the Labour Government and with the Minister confirm that if the private sector will not sufficiently invest, the government will maintain British Steel through public ownership and use the public procurement strategy to meet the company sufficiently profitable?

19:28

Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)

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I thank my honourable friend. He is completely correct in what he says and the Leader of the Opposition was on the 'Today' The forests at Scunthorpe, or Scunthorpe and Teesside, which would have cost nearly twice as much as existing proposals, and he did not mention primary steelmaking and I understand it is not clear and the official position from the official Opposition if they are not in favour of primary steelmaking.

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In her statement, the Minister celebrated this is not the end of British Steel and we welcome that

19:29

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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British Steel and we welcome that part Labour's policies could be the end of domestic British oil and gas for that is the extended windfall tax, removing investment allowances, we are working towards the end of our own domestic oil and gas sector which has proven so beneficial across Scotland and the UK, all the while offshore emissions and relying on states like China to supply renewable energy infrastructure. Is this not the time, taking this example from British Steel, to reverse the have-long rush towards ending gas in the North Sea and relying on domestic supply to help us with energy security into the future? There it would be helpful to understand the official position of the Opposition when it comes to China, the second largest economy in the world, our fourth largest trading partner and hundreds of thousands of jobs rely on the relationship and trade with China.

On the state of the House, we believe in free and open trade and will continue on that basis. The honourable Eddie suggests that is not the official opinion of the Conservative Party and so it would be useful to understand that. -- honourable lady. 7000 jobs have been lost in Ireland the guy since the Conservatives were in power because it is a declining basin and getting

19:30

Mark Ferguson MP (Gateshead Central and Whickham, Labour)

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harder to drill for oil and gas and we know the transition is happening and the issue is how to support that and the issue is how to support that and the government is putting in place huge amounts of support to ensure the skilled workers can ensure the skilled workers can transition into the green energy transition into the green energy sector. I repeat the statistic - £43.7 billion of private sector investment promised since the investment promised since the government came into power.

Is this really the conservative opinion, that we are throwing away all that investment and all those jobs are

19:31

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Swift action on this. The people of Scunthorpe will be right for, it stands in stark contrast, to my stands in stark contrast, to my honourable friend has noted, the way honourable friend has noted, the way in which the people of other areas were so cruelly abandoned by the last government. Of course the steel industry is not simply the production of steel alone, it is production of steel alone, it is Electric steel in my constituency at the heart of Gateshead, perform a vital role as at the last cast steel maker in the UK.

The Minister has met with them. Can she update me on the work she is doing to protect not

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only the steel industry, where steel is made, but also the wider supply chain to stop I thank my honourable friend for his question and yes, as we have previously said I met with them, although they're not called that any more, everyone at steel because of more, everyone at steel because of them at Davy roll. And of course that supply chain is incredibly

19:32

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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that supply chain is incredibly The plan for steel is one of the issues we are looking at, more broadly across government, if you look at a lot of the investments that have happened over the years, that supply chain hasn't been protected, whatever area of manufacturing you might find the stop the Ministry of Defence a very keen on securing a supply chain in the UK, for the investment we are putting into defence, when you look at aerospace, advanced manufacturing space, all of these issues, we need to build that supply chain capacity here in the UK.

The world has changed, we have different priorities now, he is absolutely right to raise it.

19:32

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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There is consensus across that this House that producing a steel in the UK is completely necessary and undeniable. To produce steel we need coking coal. The US are given as a supply line for the next couple of weeks Turkey part blast furnaces alive. I know the Minister is speaking to Australia and Sweden as well for when you the ability to produce coking coal here in this country for stop with the Minister please breathe fire into producing please breathe fire into producing coking coal, here in the UK.

19:33

Sarah Champion MP (Rotherham, Labour)

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I think the honourable gentleman is referring perhaps to the Whitehaven situation, as I have said already, British Steel told us directly that they can't use that coal, because of the sulphur content. You also need working coke ovens to, well at the honourable member says it is not true. He needs to provide evidence of that. Because that is what they also don't have the coking ovens, because under the previous government they were close.

19:33

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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you know that I'm really proud steel MP and so it has pained me to watch MP and so it has pained me to watch my business with a under the vine under the last government. However I'm incredibly grateful to the Minister for acting so decisively to say British Steel. Can she commit in the steel strategy to look at the underlying Liberty Steel, speciality green steel, the high energy prices, the business rates and of course other countries inefficient steel, particularly from China, in our

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markets. My honourable friend makes

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My honourable friend makes important points and that is exactly what we're looking at in the steel strategy. On that dumping issue of strategy. On that dumping issue of course, the trade remedies authority have been requested by UK Steel to have been requested by UK Steel to look at these issues in terms of steel safeguards and to make sure that they are fit for purpose, here and now. Also looking at what happens, beyond 2026 when the steel safeguards stop, making sure there

19:35

David Chadwick MP (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, Liberal Democrat)

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are sufficient safeguards in place, after that. All of these issues need to be looked at, energy prices which to be looked at, energy prices which are double under the last Conservative government and how we

19:35

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Conservative government and how we make sure that imbalance, what we said before, 53% of the global steel production comes from China and make production comes from China and make sure we don't have cheap, cheap steel coming into this country. How steel coming into this country. How do we make sure it is working, all of these are issues we are working through.

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through. Thank you, if the government now believes that primary steelmaking capacity is critical for the security of the UK, does it also recognise that the steel workers are needed to produce that steel are equally as important. And if so, why was it willing to lend it 2,800 of them, made unemployed, last them, made unemployed, last

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September, in Port Talbot. That the honourable gentleman for

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That the honourable gentleman for the question. I hope he understands that the interventions we made in this case were different for a this case were different for a , in opposition, to try to get them to change their plan and we were to change their plan and we were unsuccessful in trying to get them to change their plan. When we came into government we improved the deal that the previous government had negotiated. We improved than negotiated. We improved than redundancy, we got them to improve and invest in assets, to free up land, for other things.

We got them to do a package of things that improved that situation. He is absolutely right, that this was a package -- the closure of the blast furnaces and the building and one happening before the other came. The blast furnaces work the way they do. They need less people. We have been working really hard, through the transformation board, led by the Secretary of State for Wales and the Welsh Government, to make sure that everybody has a really significant package of support, to try and ensure they transition into other jobs and that work is ongoing and is going well.

But it is something we

19:37

Chris McDonald MP (Stockton North, Labour)

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will continue to focus on, the two situations were fundamentally different. The situation that we different. The situation that we were in, in Scunthorpe was such that British Steel were in the middle of a consultation, of potential redundancies and they failed to secure the materials, to keep the secure the materials, to keep the blast furnaces going, which would blast furnaces going, which would have completely broken their, what they should be doing, during the consultation. We couldn't allow that consultation.

We couldn't allow that to happen, we couldn't allow those blast furnaces to close and pick thousands of people to suddenly be made redundant.

19:37

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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made redundant. Can I thank my honourable friend of a statement in her action on British Steel. Can I also extend my thanks to the officials in her department, who have worked tirelessly in who have worked tirelessly in support of our Minister to secure a support of our Minister to secure a The government's Plan for Change has changed the lives of steelworkers in Scunthorpe and Teesside for top people I worked with and their families will feel a sense of relief, I feel a sense of relief.

It is the customers are British Steel that will pay the wages of these workers of the future. Can I ask her in one of the future update that she has promised that we could cover the product and market development of British Steel and how British Steel can better penetrate the UK market

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and increase its market share as well. I thank my right honourable

19:38

Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)

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I thank my right honourable friend for the work and support that he has provided to me and officials and others, in terms of his expertise, in the space. He is absolutely right to thank the staff, absolutely right to thank the staff, they have worked unbelievably hard and I'm very grateful for what they have done. He is also right, to talk Recovers in a way that we wanted to, looking at demand, in the UK and we look at procurement, looking at all these issues, to make sure that we are not just trying to save our existing provision, but to expand our provisions so that the steel industry can start to grow.

Instead of halving as it has done.

19:39

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Despite the recent comments of Scotland Office Minister, may make it crystal clear, it is not it crystal clear, it is not It should be nationalised to protect critical economic security asset that has been run down by foreign owners. What we have seen from the UK government, in these last weeks and including today is that when push comes to shove they can take bold action in crisis, as is done in Scunthorpe. Isn't it the case that if the UK fails to act in a similar fashion, highly skilled jobs would be lost, Scotland's only capacity oil refinery was shut down and critical energy security will be

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further diminished. I found the honourable gentleman that we deeply regret the choices that we deeply regret the choices that have been made. In terms of this. It wasn't the only, as he knows capacity in the UK. He is right to say it's the only one in

19:40

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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right to say it's the only one in Scotland, which is why we intervenes, with a package of support and £200 million commitment, from National Wealth Fund, on what happens to the site. He is right to stand up before people in That they are facing, that we are doing all we can. The position, as I said in my statement in Scunthorpe was a very unique and very particular. That doesn't mean we don't care, just as much about the people in Grangemouth and that we won't in it shall be doing everything we can to see the future development of that site in a way

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that support jobs. Can I add my thanks to the Minister and her colleagues, for their sterling work, in recent

19:41

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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their sterling work, in recent weeks. It is true to say that Labour is saving seal. 68% of our steel made in this country are imported from abroad. That is a disgraceful legacy of the last Conservative government does present an opportunity for this Labour government. Does she agree with me we need to mount robust trade protections, including bringing it forward to 2026 and making it mandatory for public procurement to use British Steel, so as we rebuild this country we do so with British Steel, made by British workers.

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My honourable friend is right to say that we only produce about 30% of the steel in this country and we

19:41

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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of the steel in this country and we must be much more ambitious about increasing that figure. He is right to raise the questions of carbon leakage and safeguards. The CBAM is being introduced in 2027. We are working through what happens in the interim how that works, how it interacts with European CBAM and they are making some changes, in terms of what they are implementing. We are working closely with the We are working closely with the Treasury to make sure the CBAM works, the way that protects the steel industry.

19:42

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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The day that Parliament was recalled, I gather that the workers themselves had to confront the Chinese executives, who were intent on coming onto the site and they believe that those executives intended to take unilateral action to shut down the blast furnace, recovery. Is that correct? What does that tell us about the motivation and behaviour of China, when it gets its hands on our strategic industries?

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I need to be clear on this, because I know there has been a lot because I know there has been a lot of speculation. We are not looking at deliberate acts of sabotage. There was an issue of people coming There was an issue of people coming on site, who did not gain access. There are no Jingye officials on There are no Jingye officials on site at that moment. We are talking site at that moment. We are talking to Jingye in a respectful way, about what happens next.

That said, it was what happens next. That said, it was the case that we had negotiated in good faith and we felt that that good faith had ended, in the way that they were not securing the raw

19:43

Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )

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materials that we were really clear they needed to secure. There was a breakdown there. But the position of Jingye is a position about them as a company, it is not a position about company, it is not a position about the wider view of China, a situation remains. Hundreds of thousands of remains. Hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on trade with China, they are fourth largest trading partner, we need to be mindful of that. We also need to be mindful of security, we always will be, there will always be very specific and deliberate account of the security

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implications of any investigation. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker

19:44

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker colour you cannot make British Steel without British ceramics. The high temperature resistant refractory temperature resistant refractory semantics I needed to keep the blast furnaces alive -- ceramics. The Minister is aware that the ceramic sector in this country, is being crippled by energy prices. Both because of wholesale cost, but also policy cars, chosen by the last government and continue by this government. Can I ask the Minister, when she talks about backing British industry, backing a British manufacturing, whether glass or ceramics, when will those foundational industries get the support they need to proper support the advanced manufacturing.

The cost of that would be a tiny proportion to what is being committed to

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British Steel. My honourable friend is quite right to raise ceramics and the importance that they play in a blast furnaces. We have all become are still experts and the pod cast that still experts and the pod cast that everyone has been listening to over recent weeks. One of the issues of recent weeks. One of the issues of shutting down a blast furnaces, immediately, without proper immediately, without proper provision is not just that the metal hardens, but also that the ceramic cracks and fractures and that was cracks and fractures and that was the risk that was being made, with Jingye refusing to bring in those

19:45

Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)

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raw materials. My honourable friend knows that the ceramic industry is very important to the Secretary of very important to the Secretary of State and to myself and the wider foundational industries are very important too, of course he is right to raise issues, which we have talked about, many times, in terms of energy prices. Of course the Government is working at pace to try Government is working at pace to try and alleviate that problem, as well as many other problems raise. Whether it is a cheap import, or Whether it is a cheap import, or

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The government has done the right thing because steel is strategically thing because steel is strategically important. The Minister has asked what is next. I suspect the House

19:46

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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what is next. I suspect the House will come back to this issue and will do so shortly because the fact of the matter is that over the last decade we have seen energy-intensive industries fleeing the UK with our money, oil, and one steel plant left and the reason is the mad net zero policy. Decarbonisation has increased energy costs three times higher than the US, eight times higher than China and we do not have local supplies of the materials and the carbon tax adds to the cost of business.

The Minister not accept the economic reality is that we poor public money in one end and they are coming out the net zero train at the other? -- pour.

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I do not agree with the position of the honourable gentleman on this. of the honourable gentleman on this. He is right to say that manufacturing has been going manufacturing has been going offshore over a period of years. Have not entirely lost aluminium and Have not entirely lost aluminium and there is one smelter left but we

19:47

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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there is one smelter left but we have 25% tariffs. The trade body was really clear with UK steel and we know what is leaving us with higher prices and that is what is causing the issue and they steel sector does not pay the levy is because of the reductions that are given and this is not an issue of net zero but the challenge is how we get the clean energy to stop reliance on overseas oil and gas but he is right to say oil and gas but he is right to say we have seen off shoring and we are working to stop.

19:48

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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In contrast to the last speaker, does the Minister agree the future does the Minister agree the future of the country is clean power from natural resources like offshore wind in the Celtic Sea and ultimately our in the Celtic Sea and ultimately our infrastructure should be built from infrastructure should be built from great British Steel, not steel imported from China?

19:48

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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We were talking about the importance of floating offshore wind, the Celtic Sea, the possibilities it brings us in terms of energy security in the UK and jobs.

19:48

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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Further to the answer which was given to my right honourable friend, could the Minister conceive it would be opportune to conduct an audit of critical national industries and to ensure that where there may be issues around foreign ownership or ownership by Mullane state entities. -- malign. That we know where they are and have a plan to deal with it?

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The honourable gentleman is right - we need an audit of national industries and are doing that with the industrial strategy to make the industrial strategy to make sure, particularly in the growth- driving sectors with identified, driving sectors with identified, that we have the policies in place to ensure UK companies can continue to ensure UK companies can continue to ensure UK companies can continue to thrive and were not living away from this and we believe in free and open trade and security is important and the honourable gentleman will now that we are taking appropriate action where security is an issue and that does not mean that we will stop trading with the second largest economy in the world.

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Can I put on record how proud I am to the site on the benches of the am to the site on the benches of the government who is taking action to save the steel industry? In Darlington, tens of thousands of Darlington, tens of thousands of people have manufacturing, steel, engineering running in their plight engineering running in their plight and we are proud of that history and want to contribute with the industrial future and so I asked the Minister, when they are having discussions about investment, I want discussions about investment, I want them to consider Darlington and the Valley as a fruitful area where

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people know the value of hard graft. Darlington and the Tees Valley

19:51

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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Darlington and the Tees Valley are excellent areas to invest and I wholeheartedly agree with her and in many parts of the country, steel is many parts of the country, steel is in the bones of communities but it is not looking back but looking forward and we do not just need steel in the future for clean energy but for building 1.5 million homes, Heathrow expansion, railways, across a whole range of sectors in the future and we know that the demand is increasing and not reducing.

is increasing and not reducing.

19:51

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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the Minister talks about working at pace and if she wants to see what that looks like, consider the report of steel by the Business and Trade Committee, which was turned around Committee, which was turned around in rapid pain unlike the snail pace review. Can the Minister assure us that when it finally emerges, it will address the elephant in the room, the ridiculous energy costs in the country driven up by gas, carbon taxes, renewable subsidies laid on by this government?

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The ridiculous energy costs referred to are a result of 14 years of Conservative government and we

19:52

Ann Davies MP (Caerfyrddin, Plaid Cymru)

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of Conservative government and we must be clear about that. He makes a point which has already been made. It is a reasonable point about the steel strategy because of course members are keen. We are looking at spending up to 2.5 up to £2.5 billion and they can not just saying this is a steel strategy they have written quickly, we have to do this right.

19:53

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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(SPEAKS WELSH) And I would like to follow up on a question from my right honourable friend. Unlike Scunthorpe, jobs at Port Talbot are not being saved at the government has set instead it will retrain with the flexible fund and seven months later, can the Secretary of State say how this money has been spent and how many of

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the 2800 people laid off have been retrained or redeployed? I thank the honourable lady for

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I thank the honourable lady for her reply. The honourable lady is right to raise the issue of Port right to raise the issue of Port Talbot. They are marked are papers we can send to the honourable lady about exactly how many people have about exactly how many people have gone through the training process and the number of people who have taken compulsory redundancy is very small and I think in the region of 719, so speculating slightly. Those

19:54

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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people will have a package of support and there will be more on how that support will be made and how that support will be made and It is significant and important and I would not want to downgrade the I would not want to downgrade the situation. We had to have a different response. I am happy to provide the information that she

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wants. Final question from the backbenches, Jim Shannon. I thank the Minister for all of our hard work and I thank the government for

19:54

Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Croydon West, Labour)

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the cupboard to British Steel and it is welcome. Well done. Thank you. I is welcome. Well done. Thank you. I welcome the statement. The Minister confirm that those developers and those in the construction sector in those in the construction sector in Northern Ireland can secure steel at Northern Ireland can secure steel at a reasonable price and will not be tempted for the fear the orders will tempted for the fear the orders will not be fulfilled and this would be accessible and available for those in Northern Ireland.

19:55

Points of Order Rt Hon Victoria Atkins MP (Louth and Horncastle, Conservative)

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I thank the right honourable gentleman for his words of appreciation and I thank him for that and I believe the construction sector is hugely important. We are looking at every major we can to make sure that people can buy British Steel in a competitive way that is useful for them and we are looking at other measures to make the step competitive. British Steel provides huge amounts of steel into the construction sector and we want that to continue.

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That concludes this debt. Point of order, Victoria Atkins.

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of order, Victoria Atkins. The post office Arising scandal affected many innocent people including a constituent of mine including a constituent of mine who's been waiting for a response to a claim on the group litigation order scheme since August of last

19:56

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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year. I wrote to the Minister of Services, Small Businesses and Exports last year about the delay and despite chasing the Minister more than 10 times and being repeatedly assured that an answer was on the way, and the latest one was to expect it by Easter, I have the response to my letter and my constituent is waiting. It cannot understand why they have received no answer from this government. How might we ensure an urgent response to my constituent on this urgent matter and also to other Arising victims also experiencing issues with the scheme?

19:57

Points of Order Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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Am grateful to the honourable member for the point of order and etiquette she has notified the Minister. I am not responsible for ministerial conduct but it's important ministers receive timely replies and I'm sure her remarks will have been noted.

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Point of order. Please can you

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Point of order. Please can you advise me on the correct response to a constituency visit by another a constituency visit by another member? The honourable member, who I have informed in advance, wrote to have informed in advance, wrote to me at 9:15am to tell me he was undertaking several visits in Birmingham into my constituency and I understand he campaigned for the Conservative Party a short time Conservative Party a short time later. The published rules on behaviour and courtesies of the House there member should notify colleagues whenever they intend to visit a constituency and it is clear that contention predated the date of sale.

And further, drawing attention to the official record, column 353, July 13, column 353, July 13, 2032, the deputy speaker in the cheer on that occasion stated that, "Receiving notice on the day of a visit does not reflect the intention

19:58

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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of Cadence. I would expect our of Cadence. I would expect our members to respect not only the letter of Cadence but the spirit and letter of Cadence but the spirit and give notice at least one day in advance of the visit itself." Can you please advise me if that still you please advise me if that still stands and, if it does, what steps can we take to ensure that courtesy can we take to ensure that courtesy is extended to other Birmingham MPs?

19:59

Points of Order Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving notice of the point of order and I understand he's notified the right honourable member and he intended to raise this matter in the chamber. I should like honourable members to understand that they must inform colleagues in advance when they intend to visit a constituency, except for purely private purposes. It is a matter of courtesy that notices not be left to the last minute.

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On Thursday, April 10, the Home Secretary visited my constituency with the Prime Minister. The Prime

19:59

Judith Cummins MP (Bradford South, Labour)

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with the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister had the courtesy to inform me three hours in advance of his visit but the Home Secretary did not. Last month I raised a point of order involving the Environment Minister and Farming Minister not informing me. Afterwards, I was informed I was being informed in conjunction with paragraph 10 of the ministerial code which says it must be done in advance and in time. Her notification was neither. Could you notification was neither.

Could you please advise as to whether, in this instance, the Home Secretary has broken the Ministerial Code?. broken the Ministerial Code?.

20:00

Ten Minute Rule Motion: Littering from Vehicles (Offences)

I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving notice of the point of order. I should again remind all honourable members that they must inform colleagues in advance whenever they intend to visit another colleague was my constituency except for purely private circumstances and it is a matter of courtesy that notice should not be left until the last minute. We now come to the Ten minute. We now come to the Ten

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Both immediately be given to bringing a bill to similar offences bringing a bill to similar offences to make the provision about the use of technology of identifying persons who have committed such offences and who have committed such offences and for connected purposes. If I can start by thanking the Minister for start by thanking the Minister for being here today. I was first elected last year I didn't expect elected last year I didn't expect that litter, would be one of the first issues that will be campaigning on, in Parliament.

Over campaigning on, in Parliament. Over the last nine months, this is something constituents have raised with me again and again as quite frankly they are fed up. Roadside ensuring has become a more than just an eyesore. For many it is a visible sign of a lack of respect for our environment, and for each other. Right now too many people seem to think it is respectable to buy a takeaway from a takeaway, eat it, drink it on the go and throw the rubbish out the window.

Research rubbish out the window. Research Charity found in February this year, nearly 40% of motorcyclists had experienced drivers or passengers throwing litter out of their window, while overtaking a car. National Highways found that 65% of drivers had thrown food and drink packaging and keep Wales tidy reported that fast food litter hit its highest ever levels in 2023, but the latest year of its annual report. It appears that what some people care about keeping their cars clean, they are not nearly as bothered about keeping our communities clean.

Road networks show that litter was thrown every three seconds, the equivalent of 28,800 people is of litter every day in just one sitting it signals that this is acceptable and encourages more of the same. In rural and coastal areas are like those which I represent in North Wales, roadside litter as to a growing sense that the tourism are absolutely vital to our rural economy places a disproportionate burden on local authorities and the authorities task of cleaning up. To be clear, littering is already a criminal offence, both in England and Wales, under the provisions of the protection act.

But local authorities can issue a fixed notices and up to £500 in England In England, if someone is caught throwing it from a vehicle, litter authorities can also issue a civil penalty, even if the litter authority cannot establish an identity of the person who threw the letter. It is evident though, that current penalties are not acting as a sufficient deterrent. You only need to look out of your car window, the next time you slow down, at a round of traffic lights to see the evidence.

Madam Deputy Speaker, litter isn't just ugly, it puts at those tasked with clearing it up at risks and cost UK taxpayers a massive one being pounds a year to clear it up. Money that I'm sure many of us agree would be better spent elsewhere, including on NHS. Social and environmental issues. It is estimated that 3 million animals died due to litter in the UK, every year. Discarded food attracts wildlife such as deer, foxes at the side of the road, they are more likely to be hit by cars.

Smaller mammals get trapped in bottles. The RSPCA receives about 10 calls a day about animals injured or killed by waste. And they believe the actual number is far higher. It is said to be a notion of animals and others that these figures suggest that these figures suggest otherwise. Vehicles makes his way to the sea, a staggering 350 kg of litter were collected in just one day, by North Wales wildlife trust volunteers during the annual beach clean-up in January. Not all of this will be from vehicles of course but a significant proportion of what gets thrown by cars and not getting blown into water courses and ends up in our rivers and streams.

The issue of microplastics is yet another huge concern and liturgy grades in the environment. The University conducted some of the world's first ever research looking at microplastics in rivers and lakes, even finding them in a remote lake, even finding them in a remote lake, I'm really pleased that when the UK implements and taking action to tackle this kind of pollution, include by restricting single-use plastic and introducing a deposit return schemes. To truly get a grip of this problem, I need a multi- prong detach.

Tackling both littering has to be part of it. Some people might say that a lack of litter bins is to blame. I do not disagree. An association-met with a college for better facilities for long-distance lorry drivers and I fully support this task. The lack of bins doesn't make it OK for anyone to throw cans, food packaging are empty bottles on our roads, knowing that somebody else will have to pick it up. I'm sure that every member of this House wants to join me in thanking the army of volunteers who dedicate their time and energy to pick litter up and down the country, week in, week out.

In my constituency, such as the trash free trials and keep us tidy remove huge quantities among communities. We owe them all a huge debt. We cannot just keep expecting volunteers to keep clearing up after a minority of people refusing to act responsibly. One of the central issues of this government is to take back our streets, tackling crime and restoring a sense of order. I strongly welcome the measures being introduced in the Crime and Policing Bill, to crack down on antisocial behaviour and stop turning a blind eye to what the last government deemed low-level crimes.

In a similar vein, the bill I am interesting and introduced and today. Increases civil penalties for littering from. I strongly believe that we need stronger deterrents. The bill also allows for an expansion of the use of technology and identification of offenders, something which is a barrier when it comes to enforcement and further weakens the powers of Fixed Penalty Notices. We need to ensure that the law keeps pace with advances in technology, which will not only increase the detection rate but decrease the cost of enforcement.

To conclude, this Labour government is relentlessly focused on the priorities of working people, in our country. And 81% of people, in the UK said that litter makes them feel angry and frustrated. There are of course many pressing issues in the government's in tray, inherited after the last 14 years. But tackling roadside littering will help restore pride in our communities, protect biodiversity and support nature restoration. I hope that the House will support this bill and thank you for your time and attention to this important matter.

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I leave. No?

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The question is that the honourable member have a lever to bring in the build? As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The Ayes have it. The Ayes have it. Who will prepare

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in bringing the bill? Alex Curtis, Andrew Ranger and Davies, Betty Gittins, Catherine Davies, Betty Gittins, Catherine Fookes, Ms Ryan, Sarah Coombs and Fookes, Ms Ryan, Sarah Coombs and

20:09

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Littering Littering from Littering from Vehicles (Offences) Bill.

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Second reading, what date?

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Second reading, what date? The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Sentencing Guidelines (Pre- sentence Reports) Bill, second

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reading. A Minister to move the second

20:09

Legislation: Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-Sentence Reports) Bill: Second reading

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A Minister to move the second reading, Lord Chancellor.

20:09

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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20:39

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Conservative)

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It takes a special kind of uselessness to engineer a crisis entirely of your own making and then

20:40

Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)

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to come to this House asking for applause as you legislate your way

20:40

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Conservative)

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20:56

Rt Hon Diane Abbott MP (Hackney North and Stoke Newington, Labour)

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I come up with all humility, and want to insert some facts into the debate. First of all, I think it is debate. First of all, I think it is important to recognise what's the important to recognise what's the Sentencing Council actually is. Much of the debate today and much of the of the debate today and much of the debate in recent weeks seems to debate in recent weeks seems to presume that the Sentencing Council is a bunch of heedlessly young barristers and social workers.

On barristers and social workers. On the contrary, the Sentencing Council is largely composed of some of the most senior judges in the land. They include Lord Justice Davies called to the bar in 1976 and the chair his Judge Simon Drew, a Circuit Judge in the Court Of Appeal. The Lord Justice of Appeal and Vice President of the Court Of Appeal. And the Honourable Mr Justice Mark Wore Who Was Appointed a High Court Judgement in 2020.

And There Are Also Some Very Senior Probation Officers and Magistrates. Hardly a cohort of men and women who need the firm hand of an MP on their shoulder. To explain to them what the rule of law is.

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She is making a very important point that the Sentencing Council is point that the Sentencing Council is comprised of very senior learners individuals. Given that is the case, what circumstances do you think has what circumstances do you think has what circumstances do you think has conspired to enable them to get this so very wrong? It is clear that on both sides of the house it is felt these guidelines are wrong. What circumstances do you think led to them getting it so wrong?

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I think I can say with confidence that while the Sentencing Council is talking to about issues with regards to race and criminal justice is because of a history that goes back decades, of problematic issues in relation to race and criminal justice. I will come on to those later. I would also say of the Sentencing Council that there independence is crucial. And the idea that anyone in this chamber is standing up for law and order yet seeks to undermine the independence of the Sentencing Council, and by application, the judiciary as a whole, is quite remarkable.

The next thing to say is, what do the guidelines actually say? Much of the debate today implies that black and minority persons have been singled out for presentence reports in these guidelines. On the contrary, in the guidelines, it is a whole list of people the Sentencing Council suggests that the judges and magistrates might ask for presentence report on. It includes those with a first custodian sentence, young adults, women, ethnic minority or cultural minority for the pregnant and postnatal women, the sole primary care of a dependent relative.

The Sentencing Council is clear that this is not an exclusive list, and nearly every defendant should have a presentence report. The aim of the guidelines is to ensure that judges and magistrates get the most information possible. Who could object to garnering more information on any defendant? It is certainly not the intention of the guidelines to dictate a sentence in any given case. Yet it is being argued that a presentencing report will be discouraging of a judge from sending an offender to jail.

We are asked to believe that our judiciary is both weak minded, susceptible, and will not live up to their centuries-old standards which we heard earlier go all the way back to the Magna Carta. Earlier the house was told that... Earlier the house was told that our judiciary is world-class and highly regarded. Both propositions cannot Well either our judiciary is world- class and highly regarded, or it is so soft minded that the very existence of presentencing report would make it rule in the way it wouldn't otherwise have ruled.

The presentencing rules on this not the same thing as policy. The sentencing Council itself that they are not seeking to detain policy first of they are simply trying to make sure the judges and magistrates have the maximum amount of information. The leading Kings Council says that there has been a deliberate misleading of rules to generate around. And I believe this is correct. And then we come to the talk which I've heard on both sides of the House about two tier Criminal Justice Bill.

And this can only mean that black defendants are treated more favourably than white defendants. But the fact Stella's country. The Minister will be aware of the numbing review chaired by the Member for Tottenham and our current Foreign Secretary. It was a review of race in the Criminal Justice Bill. He found that, " Despite making up just 14% of the population, black and ethnic minority men and women make up 25% of prisoners. While over 40% of young people in custody are from black and ethnic minority backgrounds.

And he added, if our prison population reflected the make up of England and Wales, we would have a fair 9,000 fewer people in prison. The equivalent of 12 average sized prisons. The Member for Tottenham did not find the Criminal Justice Bill where black and brown people are treated more favourably than white people. And he did not find equality before the law. And there's no reason to believe that things have changed since he drew up things have changed since he drew up She ate that not She ate that not only She ate that not only do She ate that not only do we She ate that not only do we have She ate that not only do we have a two-tier system, it's a two-tier system in completely the opposite way that the Lord Chancellor is suggesting, and has been that two tier system for decades.

What the population wants to see is a taking seriously of our two-tier Criminal Justice Bill. The tragic death of Stephen Lawrence in the early 1990s. It took a Labour government and a Labour Home Secretary to commission a judge led enquiry into Stephen Lawrence case. In 1999, the Macpherson enquiry reported it spoke in an unequivocal way about institutional racism in the police service, and spoke about it in a way that I have never heard it spoken about in this House or at the very most senior levels in the state.

And nobody since then has challenged the notion that there is institutional racism in the police. Does it have to be that we have our own Macpherson enquiry into the workings of the judicial system for people to accept the institutional racism is an issue in the courts as well? It is not enough to say that while, the facts are pointing in that direction but we're not quite sure why the figures are like that. We know why the figures are like that.

And we've known that for decades. If we want to,... If we want to, win the respect of the community as a whole, we have to be seen to be working towards a fair criminal just a system not just trying to score points of your position -- of the opposition, we have to look at the long-term rather than the short- term. We know that in England and Wales black people are much more likely to be arrested than white people.

Specifically black individuals are twice more likely to be arrested than white individuals. This disparity extends to imprisonment with black individuals being more likely to be sentenced to prison and serving longer sentences than their white counterparts. Everybody knows that people are not treated the same. And it is misleading of members on both sides of the House to imply that that is so. Peter Herberts, the chair of the society for black lawyers has said, " We have experienced racist two tier policing for over 500 years.

If we achieve equal treatment, that is not to tear as it is long overdue. We have never asked for special treatment but only equal treatment." And the Chancellor should pay attention to the wish of so many members of the community in her own constituency in Birmingham and mine in East London, the wish of so many of millions of people in the community to see a fair criminal just a system which treats people fairly, not unfairly as has happened in the past.

Members will know that it took the Macpherson enquiry to get a measure of understanding about Criminal Justice Bill in policing. In closing, I will say this, interesting to hear the banter between the two front benches about this issue, this is not an issue for banter. This is people's lives. This is people's liberty. And I don't think the debate is enhanced by some of the tramp like narrative we are getting from the opposition. We don't need Donald Trump type politics in Britain today.

What we politics in Britain today. What we need is a seriousness about the unfair discrimination in the Criminal Justice Bill and the willingness not just to talk about it but to do something but to do something about it.

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Thank you for top Liberal Democrats believe in equality before the law. Liberal Democrats believe the law. Liberal Democrats believe in the rule of law. And Liberal Democrats believe that no one is above the law. And so it's

21:09

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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above the law. And so it's heartening to hear that these words have been echoed across the chamber today. But actions speak louder than words. Which is why I regret to say that if you have acted more to erode these legal and democratic values than the two-tier Tory party who occupy the benches next to me. Two tier Tories who unlawfully partied in Number Ten while the rest of us missed funerals. Relatives. Two tier Tories who unlawfully suspended Parliament to get their way while lecturing us about the role of law.

Two tier Tories who unlawfully approved developments for their donor mates while purporting to talk tough on crime. Two tier Tories whose unlawfulness, chaos and double standards landed them with the biggest election defeat in their history. And they still haven't learned. Because that hypocrisy continues today in the context of the sentencing guidelines in question. Earlier editions of these guidelines were nodded through by the Conservatives when in government, yet today, they make a scene about these guidelines now that it has become politically convenient for them to do so.

Just one MP according to the sentencing Council objected to the cohort in the previous guidelines that were put out to a consultation in 2023/24, and I will give way to the then Home Office minister if he can confirm that it was him who made that objection. Radio silence. Our country deserves better. Our country deserves better than circumstances too that have given rise to this too that have given rise to this bill. The circumstances are ultimately that the last government undefended our probation and Court System so severely that presentence reports have since been rationed and are not used universally or anywhere near it.

In fact the use of presentence report has declined by 44% over the last decade almost, according to the Lord Timpson in the other place. And this is despite the sentencing code having a presumption in favour of the use of presentence report, regardless of any personal characteristic or personal circumstance that that individual has. And Liberal Democrats believe that this universal or near universal presumption is critical because when the state is considering depriving someone of their liberty, judges and magistrates should be equipped with all the information possible to pass a sentence that is most likely to reduce reoffending and protect victims and survivors.

Offenders need it, and victims deserve it. But Liberal Democrats believe that really we should be having a debate about how we can resource a criminal just assist back and fulfil a presentence report for all offenders who need it, rather than a debate that feels grounded in rationing they use. We will therefore abstain on this bill and abstain not because of indifference but because of principled concerns that I will outline. I will constructively present to reciprocate the constructive nurse with which the Secretary of State and her officials have engaged with me on this matter in recent weeks.

One concern is that this bill simply is not necessary to achieve its stated aim. The sentencing Council have in response to the strength of feeling in this Parliament, paused the imputation of their guidelines. They have not said how long that pause would be, and my understanding is that the Department have not asked them how long they would be willing to pause those guidelines for. It seems to me that there is new found space in response to the most recent act of the Lord Chancellor for an agreement to be reached through dialogue with the sentencing Council with the honourable lady Chief Justice without requiring a single minute of primary legislation that can instead be devoted to legislating to patch up other injustices.

Within our system. Another concern is that this proposal is being rushed through without comprehensive consultation or coordination with wider work that is already under way. David Cork is currently conducting an independent review with sentencing, due to report this spring, and that review or to have provided a clear opportunity to examine these issues in depth and to ensure that any reforms are evidence-based, balanced and considered in the broader context of sentencing policy. And if the government is convinced that primary legislation is required, why not wait for the review to report, take advantage of the independent inside and then bring forward coherent proposals as part of legislation later in this session? An additional concern is that while the bill ostensibly gestures towards fairness, it fails to confront some of the most pressing injustices in our criminal just assist in that were referred to by the mother of the House, including those also referred to by the Lambie review.

We know there is disproportionality in most stages of the Criminal Justice Bill, affecting various groups where there's around stop and search, charging decisions, early guilty pleas or not, and sentencing outcomes. An ethnic minority individuals, women and those with mental health issues continue to be overrepresented and under served. Yet this legislation makes no attempt to address that, and will welcome the review that the Justice Secretary described, it is unwelcome that the outcome of those reviews or that data does not yet feature in legislation alongside these Finally I'm deeply troubled with the political context with which this bill is being introduced.

It may appear technical on the surface. But the legislation risks falling into a trap in which criminal justice is being used by some in this house and beyond to Stoke division, to appeal to populist headlines, and to wage a cynical culture war. We must not allow our courts, nor our sentencing practices to become pawns in that political game. Nor part of a second stab at a Tory leadership campaign. It is critical that in this debate, and in any reform we might make to sentencing policy, that we lead with an evidence-based process.

We lead with a determination to tackle the injustices embedded in our criminal justice system, whether disproportionately affecting women, ethnic minorities, or white working class boys, the list continues. We would therefore urge the government to listen, to reflect, to return proposals and work with the Sentencing Council, work with the judiciary, work with the findings of David Gauke's independent review sentencing. Only then can we abolish the unjust two-tier system created the unjust two-tier system created

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under the two-tier Tories. After that chair of the Justice Select Committee I propose to put on a four minute time limit. I'm conscious that many members will be disappointed this evening.

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disappointed this evening. Let me begin by summarising how we got here. On 29 November On 29 November 2023, the Sentencing

21:17

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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November 2023, the Sentencing Council launched a consultation on proposed changes to the imposition of community and custodial sentencing guidelines. On 19 February 2024, the then Minister for sentencing, the Honourable member for Orpington, wrote to the chair of the council welcoming the council's work on the revised guidelines, and in particular welcomes the full guidance around the circumstances in which courts should request a pre- sentence report. 28 March 2024, the then chair of the Justice Committee wrote to the chair of the Sentencing Council noting that the council had conducted a particularly effective consultation exercise.

On 5 March On 5 March 2025, the Sentencing Council published revised guidelines saying it would come into effect on 1 April. The same day saw the first debate in this chamber and the guidelines. The accusation by the shadow Lord Chancellor is that the guidelines would make a custodial sentence less likely for those from ethnic minorities, cultural minority, and or faith minority was not the view of the Sentencing Council, but the exchange led to some extensive correspondence between the Lord Chancellor and the chair of the Sentencing Council.

I do not have time today to describe the contents of those letters. The central point raised by the chair the Sentencing Council was that the purpose of a pre-sentence report is to provide information not to determine the sentence. Frequently, he wrote, information provided would not assist the offender's prospects of avoiding a custodial sentence, rather the reverse. He added that the guidance does not make a custodial and is less likely for someone simply by way of the membership of a cohorts. The guideline does not instruct or mandates judges to request a pre- sentence report.

It is discretionary. The full list of cohorts is nonexhaustive. A pre- sentence report may be necessary to those outside the list, the section of the guidelines relating to pre- sentence reports is directly to the issue of information about offenders, no more, and no less. On 31st of March 2025, following a meeting with the Sentencing Council, the Lord Chancellor said she was going to introduce legislation to render the sectional cohorts unlawful. Guideline was due to come into force on 1 April, and the council said they would delay the date guideline is due to come into force pending statutory legislation taking effect.

On 1 April 2025 this bill was given its first reading. The bill is designed to make the unlawful for sentencing guide issued by the Sentencing Council to include a presumption that a pre-sentence report should be obtained based on the offender's membership of a particular demographic cohort. The bill has one operative clause, clause 1, which will amend section 120 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. The drafted clause 1 indicates the provision that will apply to all sentencing guidelines that have been issued by the Sentencing Council and which are already in force in the provisions in this bill take effect.

The bill states that guidelines produced by the council cannot include provision framed by reference to personal characteristics. Bill then specified personal characteristics including in particular race, religion, or belief, and cultural background. The list is not exhaustive and therefore also covers other personal characteristics, for example age, disability, sex, and sexual orientation. Clause 1 would render unlawful the following cohorts which included the imposition of community and custodial sentences with the guidelines issued on 5 March. An adult female from a cultural minority or faith minority community, pregnant or postnatal, has disclosed they are transgender, has or may have a serious chronic medical condition or physical disability, or mental ill-health, learning disabilities, or brain injury or damage.

The Explanatory Notes say that the bill does not permit the council to advise courts to consider personal circumstances in advising whether to have a PSR. It does not affect the Court of Appeal, where the pre-sentence report is either necessary or desirable. It cites three cases, Thomson which is that where a woman who was pregnant was recently given birth, is to be sentenced, it is desirable for the courts to obtain a pre-sentence report. When the court referred to the importance of the pre-sentence reports, in serious cases involving young defendants, and where the court said that the defendant's traumatic upbringing, non-ability, and the fact they have been victim of modern slavery meant a pre-sentence report should have been requested.

The government has repeatedly emphasised that its object to the inclusion of the ethnic cultural faith minority in the guideline. Government has not said subjects to the inclusion of the other cohorts in the guideline framed by personal characteristics. The fact that the Explanatory Notes made clear that the government does not intend to prevent the Court of Appeal or other body from issuing the guidance relating to sentence reports being framed by personal characteristics other than ethnic cultural faith would appear to indicate that it does not object in principle to such an approach.

I'm sure some of these matters can be examined at Committee stage. Let me conclude by saying that a few words about judicial independence. In his letter dated 10th of March to the Lord Chancellor, the chair of the Council said, "There is general acceptance of the guidelines by the judiciary because they emanate from an independent body on which judicial members are in the majority. The council preserves the critical constitutional position of the independent judiciary in relation to sentencing. The independence of the judiciary is recognised as a principal of fundamental importance to the United Kingdom's constitution.

The principles serve to protect the judiciary's ability to exercise its functions and decide cases in accordance with law and free from external pressures. Deciding on an offender's sentence is a clear example of this. But the principal judicial independence also requires that respect and recognition of the constitutional boundaries between the executive and Parliament. Lord Hodge, the deputy of the Supreme Court said in 2018, within Parliament, it is apology custom supported the role of the speaker, that an attack on a judges character or motive, or charges of a personal nature, or a call for his or her dismissal should only be made on a substantive motion, on which a vote should be taken, and also the arguments that a judge has got the decision wrong should be made in moderate language.

There has been significant criticism of the Sentencing Council, and in particular its chair, in this chamber. The shadow Lord Chancellor said on 1 April in this House, " Can the Lord Chancellor honestly say at the Dispatch Box she has confidence in the head of the Sentencing Council or Justice Davies? Given that he has brought it into total disrepute. " To criticise judiciary for their decisions in their capacity as members of the Sentencing Council risks undermining the independence as serving judges.

It remains to be seen that the measures in this bill have ripples beyond the narrow prescription in clause 1. I look forward to the government clarifying the detailed effects of the bill at the Committee stage. It would be unfortunate if such a modest piece of legislation left collateral damage to the relationship between Parliament, the executive, and the judiciary in its

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wake. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I think it is important in this debate to be clear about what we are talking about and what we are not. talking about and what we are not. Part of the guideline the Sentencing Council produced which has led to this legislation relates to this legislation relates to circumstances in which a pre- sentence report is produced, not to sentence report is produced, not to the passing of sentences. I think it is important not to overstate the problem. As we have heard, there is

21:27

Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)

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already law which says there should be a pre-sentence report in almost all cases unless it is unnecessary. And most defenders and considered either for a community sentence or a custodial one Crown Court at least already have one. But the guidance that the Sentencing Council produces on the ordering of a pre-sentencing report does matter. That is because such a report is designed to give sentences more information about the person they are sentencing. Without that information can be very hard to apply the full range of sentencing options.

Whether that is about rehabilitation activity requirements, or a program requirement might be appropriate, or to assess capacity for unpaid work. If a sentence does not order a pre- sentence report for a particular offender they may not be able to impose some of the more demanding community sentences and find themselves more likely to impose a custodial sentence is the only available and realistic alternative. So it does matter whether a sentencer is being encouraged towards an offender or not, and any guidance that says they should be in favour of someone from one culture rather than another cannot be right.

I accept the Sentencing Council is trying to do good but in reality you do not address inequality by replacing it with different inequality. So I do think the Sentencing Council have misjudged this. The government are entitled to come to that view too. I also think it would have been better if legislation were not needed to resolve this issue. But the Sentencing Council, independent as we know it is, has clearly concluded that it will not do as the Lord Chancellor has asked, and that means legislation is the only realistic alternative.

However, I do have concerns about the way the government is going about this, in particular the breadth of the drafting of the bill. One specific intervention of the Lord Chancellor which I will mention but might return to the later stages of the bill. I think it is worth Ministers considering whether the use of the phrase personal characteristics is too broad. The chairman of the select committee read out some of the other personal characteristics referred to in the draft guidelines which I don't think are anywhere near as controversial.

And keeping in mind that this is about a process where a sentencer is given information about an individual to determine the appropriate sentence, I don't think information about faith or ethnic origin would fall into the appropriate category. And Mason about health or disability might. I think there is a danger of throwing baby out with the bathwater and not all personal characteristics should be left out of account in sentencing. So I would ask the ministers to consider whether they can tighten the wording of the particular clause 1, subclause two and subclause three.

If they do so, I think it will avoid some rather arcane discussions about what could be described as personal circumstances and what could be properly described as personal characteristics. I also think there is a danger of losing sight of the good work that the Sentencing Council does. I accept this will not be universally popular point of view, but I do think the Sentencing Council and something important in the sentencing process, important that we don't lose sight of this. An important that we don't lose sight of the fact that the guideline that has been drafted here is to replace substantially out of date guidance.

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I hope that point will be noted by Whilst I acknowledge that the updated sentencing Council

21:31

Dr Allison Gardner MP (Stoke-on-Trent South, Labour)

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updated sentencing Council guidelines attempted to address inequalities in the criminal just assist in, we must maintain the principle of equality before law under such I support this bill. I note however that this bill does not prevent the sentencing Council from issuing guidelines, advising the courts to consider an offender's personal circumstances, medically when they uniquely linked to their personal characteristics when deciding whether to request a presentence report. I believe that presentence report is desirable when the defendant in question is a vulnerable woman who has committed a less serious crime, for instance when they are pregnant or are Or a victim of domestic abuse or expectation and of course these issues are often compounded by me consider into sexuality such as experienced by black women.

Similar women in the criminal just assist a vulnerable commonly two thirds of victims of domestic abuse are similar percentage have children and many have experienced adverse childhood experiences and trauma. These fallibility factors make it a critical factor that personal circumstances affecting female offenders are given consideration in presentence reporting. Women in custody have complete health needs which can increase the risk associated with pregnancy mothers and their children. Babies born in prison are twice as likely to be born premature and they are seven times more likely to be stillborn.

These are not just numbers. They affect real people, women are already experiencing trauma and babies entering the world in incredibly difficult circumstances. Consideration of pregnancy and the associated risks to mothers that Antoine Chapman and their newborn babies is therefore critical to determine appropriate sentencing. Custodial sentences can often do more harm than good to pregnant women and their children. Women are farmers likely to commit violent or sexual offences on average and farm are likely to be charged with petty crime and non-violent crime and theft.

In these cases, community sentences may be preferred so long as the offender does not present a risk to wider society. In April 2024, the sentencing Council introduced a new mitigating factor, pregnancy childbirth and postnatal care and sentencing guidelines to consider the impact of custody on pregnant offenders and their dependents. This factor recognises that any impact on offender's dependence will be disproportionate to the aims of custodial sentencing, imprisonment should not be imposed. Specifically, this relates to whether the risk posed to women and their dependents outweighs the risks associated with their crime.

To determine a fair sentence to all, both wider society and the offender and her children. It's critical that the justice system strikes the right balance when determining sentencing. And a presentence report can inform this. So I'm particularly glad that this bill does not affect Court of Appeal case law when presentence reports are necessary or desirable. In cases concerning women who are pregnant, victims of domestic abuse or have recently given birth. I believe that many of these issues raised today speak to a wider issue pertaining to women's experiences in the justice and sentence system more broadly.

Ensuring access to presentence reports helps courts

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make informed, fair and just decisions and for women in vulnerable circumstances, that can make all the difference. Course Ashley Fox.

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Course Ashley Fox. Thank you. This bill is

21:34

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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Thank you. This bill is unfortunately necessary because of the unwise actions of the sentencing Council. While Lord Chancellor is Council. While Lord Chancellor is right to bring this bill forward, she only did so at the very last moment. It was on Monday 31st of March, me hours before those guidelines were due to come into force that the sentencing Council was forced to perform a U-turn. Those guidelines would have led to a two-tier justice system in England and Wales.

The sentencing Council didn't withdraw those guidelines out of principle or wisdom. They did so because they were caught out. The backtrack was quietly communicated to judges and magistrates several hours after courts had already opened on Tuesday. To make matters worse, their message said they still believed that the policy was necessary. There is nothing necessary about that policy. Under the proposed guidelines, judges and magistrates were told that presentence reports should normally be required when sentencing individuals from ethnic faith or cultural minority groups.

And what about those who are white? Male, and not part of a specified minority? They would not have fallen within this description. The implication was clear. Defendants will be treated differently not based on their actions or the harm they have caused but based on their identity. And that is wrong. And it was only after the intervention of my right honourable friend the shadow justice secretary that the Lord Chancellor, rightly, took action. Race, culture and religion should never determine whether you go to prison or not.

The Lord Chancellor said she was willing to legislate to stop this travesty if the sentencing Council refused to back down. And that's what we are now doing. This is about the most fundamental principle in a free society. Equality Bill for the law. The question we must now ask ourselves is how the sentencing Council got this so badly wrong, and judging by the comments of Lord Justice Davies, would continue to get wrong. There guidelines would have had real consequences.

In borderline cases, where a judge is unsure whether to issue a custodial sentence or not, the presence or absence of a presentence report could be decisive. The whole purpose of these reports is to influence the outcome. By tilting the system toward giving those reports preferentially to certain identity groups, the council would effectively be tipping the scales of justice. And they know it. Baroness Falkner, chair of the equalities and human rights commission has warned that the guidelines may violate the Equality Act.

If we allow a sentencing outcome to be guided by race, faith or cultural identity, we abandon the core British principle that the law applies equally to all of us. I agree with the Lord Chancellor that we should pass this legislation to override this guidance. But I ask her, how confident issue that we won't face a similar situation again? I would like her to confirm and ensure that Parliament is given oversight of all future sentencing guidance. We must put into law the principal no factor like race, religion or cultural minority status should ever influence sentencing procedures.

Justice must remain blind. Not selectively blinkered. If we lose equal justice, we lose the foundation of a free society.

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Thank you. I welcome this bill and swift action taken by the Lord

21:38

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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and swift action taken by the Lord Chancellor to correct what is a clear wrong. Had they been implement it, the sentencing Council's new guidelines were to introduce differential treatments before the law, something that can never and should never be acceptable. The question is how do we get to this point? Do these guidelines simply appear out of nowhere? Of course they didn't. They were subject to an extensive consultation under the previous Conservative government, a government that welcomed them without reservation.

So let's be clear, the consultation published in November 2023 closed in February 24 indicated that a presentence report may be particularly important if the offender belonged to ethnic, cultural or faith minority communities. The then Conservative sentencing minister wrote to the sentencing Council, thanking them and welcoming the expanded guidance on the circumstances in which courts should seek presentence reports. So let's be crystal clear, it was the last Conservative government that endorsed the idea that it was particularly important to request presentence reports for individuals from ethnic cultural or faith minority backgrounds.

And therefore by extension of basic logic, less importance for other groups. The sentencing Council have their answer. They then Conservative government supported their changes. Given what we had today, there must surely have been a flurry of opposition in certain quarters. So what did the now shadow justice secretary say about it at the time? The answer is nothing. What the Leader of the Opposition say? Nothing. Perhaps if they had bothered to stand up and do their job, as Labour has today, these guidelines would never have been issued in the first place.

Now for all the failings of the last Conservative government, many members were appalled by the outright refusal to amend these guidelines when requested to do so by the Justice Secretary. This refusal is the reason we find ourselves here today. Far too much of the British state now appears to operate beyond the reach of those democratically elected to lead it. There are too many quangos, too many faceless bureaucracies, too many levers of power is seemingly detached from those the people chose to govern.

British public do not understand how a court can block the deportation of a convicted criminal who the government wishes to remove from the country. They do not understand how the Chancellor has constrained the decision-making from an unelected officer for Budget responsibility and do not understand how Justice Secretary cancer could not prevent unequal treatment before the law. This bill is the right response to this specific situation. But how long before we find ourselves here again in another stand-off with the sentencing Council, over another issue where unelected officials clash with democratically accountable politicians? In the fullness of time, and I welcome the words of the Lord Chancellor today in terms of her further review, I believe we will have to go further.

I believe we should abolish the sentencing

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Council altogether. Thank you. What the sentencing Council ludicrously proposed was

21:42

Mr Peter Bedford MP (Mid Leicestershire, Conservative)

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nothing short of two-tier justice. Guidelines that would mean young black Asian or indeed other nonwhite defenders could have received more lenient sentences than their white counterparts in the exact same circumstances. Bellamy be clear, justice must be equality before the law. As someone once said, justice was not only done but seen to be done. It should not depend on your race, colour of your skin, your culture or your religion. And it's high time we remind the unelected, unaccountable and quite frankly woke quangos that equality means treating everyone the same and not creating one rule for some and one for others.

So I'm glad that we have finally reached the second reading of this bill. That. The madness espoused by this out of touch liberal dinner party advisory. For far too long, body such as sentencing Council have been allowed to rule the roost, such bodies and quangos are costing the taxpayer in excess of £64 billion a year for unserious and wasteful organisations. Parliament must be sovereign. And should not continue to come up against a brick wall every regulatory and bureaucratic obstacles. I can't help but sense data fee.

I was sat in this very place well over a month ago when my right honourable friend the shadow Lord Chancellor brought forward legislation that would have prevented this slide into a two-tier justice. And all this while the Lord Chancellor allowed the chairman of the sentencing Council to effectively run rings around her, the government, and the will of this House. Let's stop pretending. Sadly two-tier justice does exist, and the British people know it. Just look at the facts. People are being thrown into jail for making stupid comments online whilst grooming gangs were able to operate unchallenged fear of cultural sensitivities.

This is wrong, and the British people demand that it ends now. And it's not just the courts. Police forces in the UK have been caught blocking white applicants from jobs will stop not based on ability but merely based on the colour of their skin. How on earth did we get here? This is the country of the Magna Carta, the birthplace of common law. Some of the greatest legal minds the world has ever seen. Yet we have an unelected quango propose guidelines that are openly discriminatory and where equality before the law has been replaced by ideology over

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fairness. ECO shadow Minister Mike Wood.

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ECO shadow Minister Mike Wood.

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Thank you. Equality before the law is at the heart of law. As Cicero said, for rights not open to

21:45

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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Cicero said, for rights not open to all, alike would be no rights. The revised guidelines from the sentencing Council fundamentally went against this important principle. To introduce a presumption, the presentencing reports would be required not necessarily because of particular vulnerability of offenders or circumstances relating to their offence, but because of the colour of their skin, the region of their ancestors origin or the religious beliefs that they hold is two-tier justice, no matter how laudable the intentions.

This isn't about the Court of Appeal judgement like Thompson that the Lord Chancellor referred to. Around factors that could fundamentally change the effect the particular judicial sentences may have on an offender or relate directly to the circumstances of the offence. This is purely about those characteristics. Now my Right Honourable framed the shadow Lord Chancellor did not only this House but this country a huge surface when he raised this matter from the despatch box on 5 March. Because it was clear the Lord Chancellor was Neither she nor her ministers knew anything about the proposals.

In fairness to the right honourable lady, who is not back in her seat at the moment, I am sure that she was as appalled as we were at the idea that people should be treated differently purely because of their ethnicity, culture, or religion. But this is a lacklustre bill. To do the minimum needed to clear up the immediate mess of this government's making. As I have said, it is the minimum necessary, it is a very small step in the right direction but it does not go as far as the government should be to actually introduce the reforms that are needed.

The right honourable lady had been Lord Chancellor for eight months but had so little grip of her department she had not only done nothing to stop, but wasn't even aware, of the sentencing Council's new guidelines. A representative had met with the Sentencing Council just two days earlier. What were they doing there if it wasn't to stop proposals like these? How is the right honourable lady running her department if she was not even informed of this? These proposals had changed during that process, and the Lord Chancellor, unlike myself and unlike the Business Secretary, has been a practising lawyer.

She would understand that there is a substantial difference in the effects of saying that the pre- sentence report may be particularly important, and requiring that a pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary, in terms of the effect it has in triggers for appeals against sentencing. And yet, those changes were made almost at the point that the right honourable lady became Lord Chancellor, and eight months later, she had done nothing to stop it, and wasn't even aware of it.

Now this bill comes forward, that just stops the very narrowest and worst aspects of these guidelines. If the government was actually serious about taking action, it could have taken action much more quickly. It did not even need to take action, purely and omission would have been sufficient. On 20 March when the shadow Lord Chancellor brought forward his Private Members' Bill, or the government whips had to do was not shout object in order for that bill to go forward that would have restored proper ministerial oversight and through the Minister, Parliamentary oversight over sentencing guidelines, and so allowing Parliament to take control

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over this fundamental matter. He is right this is not just these guidelines but the last these guidelines but the last government legislated to increase sentencing for death by dangerous driving. Does he agree we need that driving. Does he agree we need that all the power where Parliament's

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all the power where Parliament's intent is not recognised by the Sentencing Council, so that we can act. Does he agree? Clearly Parliament needs to be

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Clearly Parliament needs to be able to have the oversight over revisions of sentencing guidelines so that those guidelines do reflect the will of Parliament. But the government failed to act and is now brought forward this lacklustre measure. In the past few months, honourable and right honourable friends have uncovered multiple instances of these two-tier principles and applied in matters relating to bail and to Bashan and other judicial matters. This is not a one-off, a whistleblow fixer to move on, it is systemic, it is endemic.

We need much more radical reform than the government is bringing forward to today. When will the government, I have to wrap up, when will the government get serious, get a grip, and put an end serious, get a grip, and put an end to this not just now but once and for all?

21:50

Sir Nicholas Dakin MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Scunthorpe, Labour)

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I call the Minister. I want to thank all honourable and right honourable members on all sides of the house for their valuable contributions. I think what I heard from the shadow spokesman at the end there was support for this bill. An I thank him for that. Today's debate has been a helpful one, and has underscored the broad support for this legislation, and the principal of equality before the law. Many members, pretty much every member that has spoken has underlined the importance of the principal of equality before the law.

And I'm proud that my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor acted so swiftly to address this situation, and in a way which was courteous and respectful to all involved to get to the point where we are today. But whilst we have had much agreement, my right honourable friend, the Mother of the House, who I have the highest regard for, announced herself as being in a minority of one. I am sure that is not the case. But she did draw attention to her serious concerns about disproportionality in the criminal justice system.

I can say to her that we share her concerns about disproportionality. That is why the Lord Chancellor has announced a review of all data so we all know what the actions are that will address properly this issue of proportionality bring about change. And change in a way which addresses the seriousness of the unfairness in the system to which she rightly alluded. Equality before the law is a fundamental principle of our criminal justice system. It is the governments policy and believe that this should be protected.

We know that more must be done to address inequalities in the justice system, and we are committed to tackling racial disparities across the criminal justice system. We are also taking steps such as increasing diversity in our staff and working with the judiciary to make sure that our appointments are reflective of the society we serve. This is including supporting underrepresented groups to join the judiciary and the magistrates. It involves widely supported outreach programs run by the MOJ and partners who work to reduce barriers to individuals joining.

We need to do much more. I commend my honourable friend for keeping us on notice. I also promise her that we will deliver. The honourable member for Eastbourne who speaks for the Liberal Democrats reminded us, as indeed the member for Hartlepool did, that these guidelines were nodded through by the previous Conservative government. He also reminded us of the inheritance that we have had of an underfunded probation and court system which has led to, in his words, a rationing of pre-sentence reports.

I agree with him, although the debate should be about how we move to universality of pre-sentence reports, not about rationing. And of course none of this debate alters the fact that independent judges can ask for pre- sentence report whenever they feel it is necessary. And indeed the Lord Chancellor in her opening speech made clear that capacity has been increased so more pre-sentence reports can be done, and quite properly. We heard very helpful contributions from the chair of the select committee, and the honourable member for Kenilworth and Southam.

Both of whom drew attention to the importance of pre-sentence reports and identifying the most appropriate effective sentence for individual offenders. The chair of the select committee gave us the full timeline of this affair, and also a good analysis of where we are with the bill up-to-date. I agree with him that we will have more opportunity to look at this in detail at the committee stage. Likewise, the member for Kenilworth and Southam also drew attention to his concerns about the breadth of the bill.

Again, it will be an opportunity to examine further at committee stage. My honourable friend the member for Stoke-on-Trent South raised very serious concerns in the issues related to pregnant women, and was pleased that this does not affect the Court of Appeal case law in that respect. In fact nothing in this bill, as she helpfully reminded the house, revenge judges from requesting PSRs for pregnant women. Judges will continue to request PSRs in cases where they ordinarily would, for example appropriate cases involving pregnant women.

We would expect this to continue. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm happy to have heard so much support for this bill during the debate today. There will be a drop in on the next stages of the bill on Monday for MPs to answer any other questions that members of this House have, to feed into the process prior to us coming to the Committee stage next week. This emergency legislation, while it is a small bill, is of great significance. It. The Sentencing Council's updated guidance on pre- sentence reports from Coming into force, and safeguard against the risk of differential treatment arising from their use.

The action taken by the government on this issue underscores our commitment to equality before the law, something that all honourable members who have spoken in the debate have underlined today. And it is most important. The ancient principle on which our justice system was built. I commend the bill to the house.

21:57

Adjournment: Potential merits of Government support for the Coalfields Regeneration Trust

The question is that the bill be read a second time. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Programme motion to be moved formally. The question is as on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the petition.

21:57

Ben Goldsborough MP (South Norfolk, Labour)

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Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I rise to present the petition about I rise to present the petition about water quality on a river. I hope the government will take note of the children 54 resident who have signed it. The signatures have been gathered by residents who worked hard to collect support from nearly every household in the picturesque South Norfolk village. This demonstrates the strength of feeling about the risks to both people and wildlife when our waterways are not properly protected.

The petition states, the petition of residents of the constituency of South Norfolk declares that the water quality on the river is deeply concerning the putting wildlife and people at risk. The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the government to clean up British waterways, called upon Anglian Water to uphold the highest possible water quality levels, and for the Environment Agency to provide residents with information they need so they can enjoy the river all year so they can enjoy the river all year Yare.

21:59

I beg to move the House do now adjourn.

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The question is the House do now Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I want to start by acknowledging the I want to start by acknowledging the death of the Holy Father yesterday. Many people in my constituency

21:59

Adjournment: Potential merits of Government support for the Coalfields Regeneration Trust

Many people in my constituency across the world will be filling his death deeply. And all who admired him. This week we mark St George's

21:59

Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)

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22:20

Alex Norris MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )

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Minister. I am grateful to my honourable friend the member for Newcastle- under-Lyme for securing this debate and raising not just the challenges faced by coalfield communities but also the exceptional work done by the Coalfields Regeneration Trust supporting them. I'm always very cautious and indeed when I was waiting for this debate, I had a couple of emails from constituents who said you could measure the interest in Parliament always by the presence in parliament. However, this is a rather exceptional turnout I have to say and adjournment debate at the end of the day.

I think it shows the strength of feeling, I think the gentleman has clearly it's an issue that people feel strongly about. The comments from him in the comments of other colleagues have been very thoughtful about the challenges facing our coalfield, and what might work in the future to improve them. He set out the case excellently in terms of the challenges facing communities like kids in communities like mine. The history is well potted and I think it bears repeating. 1985, 1986 just two is when one third of pits closed including many when I constituents work.

By 1994, with industry privatised, more than 200 at the bidding of the 80s, employment in coal mining had plummeted to just 7000. The socio economic impact of those closures especially at community level has been profound. It is important that we understand it in this context, there are few if any more striking examples of chronic job loss in Western Europe with almost all the burden carried by a few local areas and specific segment of the workforce. That speaks to why we still have those challenges that were felt then and echoed many cases for decades.

With coalfield committees facing poorer health outcomes, a shortage of jobs, and social dislocation. I know this because it is my community, and I feel this with the same vigour that my colleagues do about wanting to change it. As my honourable friend's said, in seeking to address the challenges the previous Labour government established the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, designed to increase access to employment optical Tunisians, employment opportunities and results have been very good. My honourable friend has mentioned the form of deprived as the John Prescott, boy do we miss him, but I might refer to another John, the right honourable Member for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough who was instrumental in setting that.

As Parliament leading person from there, he is right and it has lasted the test of time. It is a testament to an organisation that when funding was ended in 2015 and the transition to £30 million of revenue funding and £22 million of capital funding they put that money to work. Building industrial development to support growing SMEs. Bringing jobs to areas that had been experiencing market failure. Since 2015 the value of that original capital investment doubled to create an asset base worth 55 1/2 million pounds as well as supporting 3500 jobs.

And it provides a self- sustaining revenue stream to support coalfield communities that has generated 20 £1.5 billion from the CRT and many organisations they work with to address social and economic challenges facing their communities. As honourable Friend said, the investment in 2023 4/24 help 70,000 people tackle the health skills and product issues. So the cases are made. I'm looking forward to talking this over with anti-lock and his colleagues to talk about the letter. I can safely say given that every person has written to me on this matter that the case is very well made.

And as honourable Friend hinted to, I can assure him that the ideas are being taken very seriously because I know that the good people of CRT and the organisations they work with their boots on every day to change their communities and positive way we are very lucky to have them. I want to just add in the spirit of what my honourable Friend said about the context in which we want the CRT to operate and how we wanted to change.

I forget the three words my honourable friend said around power, but what I'm about to say is very much in line with that. This government, from the Prime Minister, from day one, has promised a shift of power and resources from this place to local communities. These are proud communities, communities proud that we powered the nation. Angry at the challenges we face we have all the ideas we need to change it, we just need the power and resources. That is the job of this government.

I could do all day on what we do with regards to devolution but across our country including coalfield, in Cumbria and Cheshire and Warrington, we are giving that power to local committees to help them shape their place. But there is also a place for localised place-based funding interventions. One that has aged particularly well, another John Prescott innovation, the new Deal for communities. We have started in this direction through our plan for neighbourhoods, again a long-term commitment to communities, to shift resources to them.

Give them that stability of long-term funding backed by support of central government. And empowering them to take ownership for driving renewal forward with their neighbourhood, and learning so much from what has worked in the CRT will offer great partnership in the coalfield that are planned for neighbourhoods recipients which include Mansfield, Doncaster, Wrexham, and as the member for Newcastle-under-Lyme rightly said, my noble friend will be here speaking for the person of Merthyr Tydfil. These are areas that deserve that money and support and we know going further it will be great to support coalfield communities across the country.

One of the ways, and again time is short, but we can ensure that the mistakes of the last four decades in terms of the lack of opportunities can be changed, through local growth plans. We have worked hard with devolved mayors to come up with a planned about where the economic future is. The member for Doncaster mentioned green industries, there are huge opportunities, and I expect we will see them as part of the plans. Our commitment to the communities is clear.

Come forward with your plans and we will make sure that in their aggregates they are linked through to an industrial strategy that changes the economy in this country. The great tragedy, I talk about the loss of jobs in my community and 1980s, the great tragedy was the absolute absence of efforts to replace them. It has meant that there had to be a Labour government to come along many years later which has meant fantastic organisations like the CRT had to pick up the pieces.

Our industrial strategy will be built on getting Britain making again, and getting opportunities for communities to have skilled labour in their communities, that has built them in the past and will build them again. That is why this is a debate of course that has relation to our past and our very proud industrial heritage. But as much as it is a debate about the past, it is debate about the future. I know that because I feel I have basically the most intimidating group of people here to try and hug me for my dinner money on the way out, the case has been exceptionally well-made by the member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and I thank you for doing so.

The case has been made strongly colleagues were intervention as well, by correspondence, by early day motions. I was surprised to not hearing say it was at least one day short. We will engage seriously with

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the CRT. I look forward to working with them in the future. The question is that this house do now. As many are of that opinion do now. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". The ayes have it. Order.

14:00

Sir Nicholas Dakin MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Scunthorpe, Labour)

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22:35

Alex Norris MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )

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This debate has concluded

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