Commons Chamber

Monday 13th October 2025

(began 1 month, 2 weeks ago)

Share Debate
Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
14:54
14:54
14:54
14:55
14:55
None Portrait Q7. What steps he is taking to support the building of social housing in rural towns and villages. (905823)
-

Bev Maguire.
14:55
14:56
14:57
14:57
None Portrait Q8. What steps he is taking to bring long-term empty homes back into occupation. (905824)
-

Bradley Thomas.
14:57
14:57
14:58
14:58
14:58
14:59
None Portrait Q9. Whether he plans to include community-led housing within the long-term housing strategy. (905825)
-

funding and taking it forward to deal with an issue that affects every single council across the country. Thank you.
14:59
14:59
14:59
15:00
15:00
15:01
None Portrait Q10. What assessment he has made of the potential merits of the capital funding request from the Coalfields Regeneration Trust. (905827)
-

Not the deployment.
15:01
15:01
15:02
15:02
15:02
15:03
15:03
15:03
15:04
15:04
15:05
15:05
15:06
15:06
15:07
15:07
15:08
15:09
15:09
15:10
15:10
15:11
15:12
15:12
15:13
15:14
15:14
15:15
15:16
None Portrait Q15. What steps he plans to take to reform the leasehold system. (905832)
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can we just say it's Adlington in Cheshire, not Lancashire reliably? Sureena Brackenridge.
15:16
15:16
15:17
15:17
15:18
15:19
15:19
15:19
15:20
15:20
15:21
15:22
15:22
15:23
15:23
15:24
15:24
15:25
15:25
15:26
15:26
15:26
15:27
15:27
15:27
15:28
15:29
15:29
15:29
15:30
15:30
15:30
15:31
15:31
15:31
15:32
15:32
15:33
15:33
15:33
15:34
15:34
15:34
15:35
15:35
15:35
15:36
15:36
15:36
15:37
15:37
15:38
15:38
15:38
15:38
15:39
15:40
15:40
15:41
15:41
15:41
15:42
15:42
15:42
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
I call the secretary. a statement on the terrorist attack on the 2nd of October and the action this government is taking in response. May I start by calling this attack what it was an evil act of anti-Semitic terrorism that targeted innocent worshippers on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. And that was carried out by a terrorist pledging his allegiance to the warped ideology of Islamism. Let me pay tribute to the two men who were killed that day.

Melvin Kravitz and Adrian Dolby. Their bravery saved countless lives. On behalf of the whole House, I would like to offer my deepest sympathies to their families and their friends. May their memory be a blessing. A further three men were seriously injured in the attack. I know all of our thoughts are with them, alongside all those who are caught up in these terrible events. I would like to also thank those whose bravery saved lives. Worshippers, staff and volunteers from the Community Security Trust and the emergency services who acted with speed and the utmost professionalism.

This is a moment of profound national sorrow, an attack on our Jewish community is an attack on this entire nation, and it calls on us to assert once more our determination to tackle extremism, antisemitism and hatred wherever it appears. Mr Speaker, while the events of that day are painful to recount, it is important that we do. On the morning of Thursday, the 2nd of October. A terrorist drove a car at worshippers outside the Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation synagogue in Crumpsall, Manchester.

The driver then left his vehicle armed with a knife and resumed his attack. He was wearing what was later determined to be a fake explosive device, though it should be remembered that all present had every reason to believe that bomb was real. When the first call came into the emergency services, Greater Manchester Police declared a major incident and firearms officers were deployed within seven minutes of that call. The attacker had been intercepted and shot dead. Melvin Kravitz was killed by the attacker.

Tragically, initial findings now indicate that Adrian Dalby sustained a gunshot wound during the armed police response. As is standard in such cases, an investigation is being carried out by the Independent Office of Police Conduct, the iOPC. But there are two things I can say. Firstly, it is important to note that the iOPC has confirmed the officers involved in the response are being treated as witnesses. Secondly, it must be remembered that the police acted in a situation where they believed a terrorist was likely to detonate an explosive device.

The necessary processes must now take their course, and I expect the iOPC to complete them as quickly as possible. Mr Speaker, there is no ambiguity around who is responsible for the deaths and injuries that took place on that day. Members will be aware that the attack was carried out by Jihad Al Shami, a 35 year old British citizen of Syrian descent. We know he came to this country as a child and was registered as a British citizen while still a minor.

He was never referred to the prevent programme, nor was he known to counter-terrorism, policing or the security services. He had, however, recently been arrested on rape charges, for which he was on bail at the time of the attack. Investigators believe the attacker was influenced by extreme Islamist ideology, evident in A999 call that he made during the incident in which he pledged allegiance to Islamic State. Six people were arrested following the attack and were released without charge. One was subsequently re-arrested and has been bailed.

I know that there are many questions that the public rightly demand answers to, as do members of this House, and those answers will come. But for now, the investigation is ongoing, and we must allow that work to take its course. We do know that voices in the Jewish community had long been warning that this day would come, and that Jews who had long felt safe in this country, in their country, now no longer do. Now this awful day has come to pass.

We must learn from it so that we do everything within our power to ensure it does not happen again. Our immediate priority was to enhance security. Visible officer patrols have been stepped up at synagogues and other sites in Manchester and across the country. Additional support has been made available to more than 500 locations, and while there have been long standing security arrangements in place with £18 million of funding each year for the Community Security Trust, it is clear that more must be done.

We will provide our Jewish community with the protection they deserve, because no one should be forced to live a smaller Jewish life

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in their country because of the events of October the 2nd. Thank. Mr Speaker, our posture at

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr Speaker, our posture at religious sites is one of maximum vigilance that applies to the Jewish vigilance that applies to the Jewish community, and it also applies to British Muslims. I know members across the House will have been disturbed by a suspected arson disturbed by a suspected arson attack that took place at a mosque in Peacehaven in East Sussex last in Peacehaven in East Sussex last week. The policing minister visited the mosque and met those forced to flee for their lives in terrifying circumstances.

And we have discussed circumstances. And we have discussed this with my honourable friend the member for Brighton, Camptown and Peacehaven, who I know also visited Peacehaven, who I know also visited the mosque on Friday. Let me be clear. Violence directed at any clear. Violence directed at any community, be they Jewish or Muslim, of all faiths or none, are attacks of all faiths or none, are attacks on our entire country here. I know this country is united in our this country is united in our condemnation of those who seek to divide us, because one of the greatest achievements of this greatest achievements of this country has been our tolerance, our ability to accept and embrace ability to accept and embrace difference.

Our generosity towards those who may not look the same, but are encompassed comfortably within a single national identity. It was for that reason that I was so affronted by the protest that took place in the days after the attack. These were a clear source of fear to the Jewish community, grieving just days after an unspeakable tragedy. The same was true on the anniversary of the October 7th attacks. I described those protests as un-british, and I stand by that because those protesters showed none of the generosity of spirit that I love about this country, and they most certainly did their cause no good whatsoever.

The right to protest is a fundamental freedom, but it must be balanced against the right. The public has to their safety and their security. In my conversations with community leaders and the police in recent days, it is clear that balance has not been struck. For that reason, I can confirm to the House today that we will amend sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act, 1986. The police will be able to take account of the cumulative impact of frequent protests when considering whether to impose conditions.

This will mean that protests that follow the same routes time and again can be forced to change their route, or the time of a protest. I am also reviewing all existing legislation to ensure our public order powers are fit for purpose and are being consistently applied. The right to protest must and will be protected, but of all the freedoms we enjoy, none is more precious than the right to live in safety. Mr Speaker, the government's first responsibility is to keep the public safe.

Since 2017, the Security Service and the police have disrupted more than 40 plots. This work has saved countless lives through our counter-terrorism strategy contest. We continue to tackle threats to this country, including those posed by Islamist terrorism, which remains our primary domestic threat. And through programmes like prevent, we seek to stop the slide into extremism that is drawing in far too many young people today. Once the investigation into this attack is complete, we will know much more about how it took place.

But the reality is we now face a domestic terrorist threat in this country that is more complex, less predictable, and harder to detect than ever before. That threat will never be defeated unless we address the hate that fuels it. That means acting on the rising tide of antisemitism in this country. Mr Speaker, I am horrified when I hear our Jewish community talking about their fear in a country that once offered a rare island of sanctuary in an all too often hostile world.

We have, in the days since the attack, stepped up our efforts to tackle anti-Semitism wherever it is found, challenging misinformation and hatred in schools, calling on Vice-Chancellors to do more to protect Jewish students at universities, and calling on local authorities to use their powers to protect the community. As well as reviewing the clearly inadequate regulations that protect Jewish staff and patients in the National Health Service. While these are important steps, more must be done. Antisemitism is the oldest

**** Possible New Speaker ****

hatred. We must now redouble our efforts to fight it once more. Yes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yes. Mr Speaker, terrorists seek one thing to divide us. They hate a thing to divide us. They hate a society like ours, where different communities live together in communities live together in harmony, united by a common identity that transcends the colour of our skin or the nature of our faith. This attack has raised questions that must be answered about the security that we provide to our Jewish community, about how we address a rising tide of address a rising tide of anti-Semitism, about how we bring communities together rather than allowing some individuals to allowing some individuals to separate off into dark corners, including how we tackle the continuing threat of Islamist extremism and those who are pulled towards its warped ideology.

But at towards its warped ideology. But at the same time, we must not let this attack defeat us, nor forget who we attack defeat us, nor forget who we really are, because the real face of this country was not that of the this country was not that of the vile monster who conducted this attack. It was those who stood up to him and saved their fellow him and saved their fellow worshippers. And the emergency services who sprinted towards danger to bring the attack to an end.

And the real face of this country wasn't those who took to the streets and protested the very next day, but rather those who were horrified by the attack, stood with their Jewish neighbours and chose the path of solidarity over division. The anti-Semitic terrorist attack of October the 2nd was a horrifying act. In response to it, Mr Speaker. I hope the whole House can be united in a simple message to those who seek to divide us by pitting one against another.

They will fail. No act of terror will ever defeat us. Mr Speaker, I commend this statement to the House.
15:55
Chris Philp Portrait Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)
-
-
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

thank the. Home Secretary. For advance sight. Of her statement. At 931 on the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of her statement. At 931 on the morning of Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar. We saw the sickening terrorist attack on worshippers at Heaton Park Synagogue in Manchester by an Islamist extremist. The brutal attack left two men dead, Melvin Kravitz and Adrian Dalby, three more injured. Our thoughts and prayers remain with Our thoughts and prayers remain with the victims and their families, whose lives were so wickedly torn whose lives were so wickedly torn apart on that holy morning.

I want to thank Greater Manchester Police and others in the security and and others in the security and emergency services for responding so quickly. And to the brave worshippers inside the synagogue who worshippers inside the synagogue who stopped the attacker from entering. I joined with the Home Secretary in saying that I hope the iOPC saying that I hope the iOPC completes their work quickly, and that the iOPC conclusions will reflect the fact that police reflect the fact that police officers acted with courage in what was a very dangerous, unpredictable was a very dangerous, unpredictable and fast moving situation.

Sadly, we know that anti-Semitism is at record know that anti-Semitism is at record highs in the UK. The Community Security Trust recorded over 1500 anti-Semitic incidents across the UK in the first half of this year, the second highest level ever. And Jewish people in our country tragically face far higher rates of hate crime than any other community. So we must stand with this country's Jewish community and fight with all our resolve and all our energy. The ancient evil of antisemitism, wherever it is found.

It has no place on these shores, not ever. And let's be clear. Attacks based on race, race or religion are totally unacceptable. The recent attack on a mosque in Peacehaven was appalling, and I know all of us will unreservedly condemn it. So everyone in this country, in all communities, including the Muslim community, must have the courage to stand up to extremism wherever we see it. Because standing by and saying nothing when encountering extremism is complicity. And that is why the antisemitism that is rife on university campuses must also be fought.

The Home Secretary mentioned that in her statement, but will she work with her colleagues in government to withdraw funding from universities that do not do enough to fight anti-Semitism? And we must do more than just call out extremism. Anyone espousing extremist views or who expresses support for terrorism, or racial or religious hatred of any kind, including anti-Semitism, who is not a British citizen, should be removed from this country. So will the Home Secretary commit today to using her powers under the 1971 Immigration Act to remove from this country any foreign national who expresses extremist views or sympathy for political violence or terrorism or anti-Semitism, or any other form of religious hatred, whether or not the criminal threshold is met.

She could make that commitment now. And will she show she is serious about fighting extremism by doing so? I agree with the Home Secretary that the protests on the 7th of October this year, the anniversary of the terrorist murders by Hamas, and just days after the Manchester murders, were appalling. Un-british, in her words, which I agree with. These protests have continued even after the recent peace agreement relating to Gaza was signed. And of course, they started before Israel's military action in Gaza.

So, in principle, I support her proposed introduction of a new cumulative impact test to section 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. But will the Home Secretary also consider expanding that test to also account for intimidation felt by other communities as a result of protest? Does the Home Secretary also agree that anyone expressing support for a proscribed terrorist organisation, or who incites violence, for example, by calling for jihad or intifada, should be arrested and prosecuted? Since the attack, the police confirmed the attacker pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and was influenced by extreme Islamist ideology.

As the Home Secretary acknowledged, Islamist extremism is sadly a threat we know all too well in the United Kingdom. In July, we remembered the 52 people murdered by Islamist terrorists in the seven seven bombings, which took place 20 years ago, the deadliest terrorist attack committed on British soil. We also remember Sir David Amos, also murdered by an Islamist extremist, and the 22 victims of the Manchester Arena attack, also murdered by an Islamist extremist. We should not be afraid to call out this extremist ideology wherever we see it.

It has no place in this country. So will the Home Secretary pledge to drop any definition of Islamophobia, which makes calling out Islamist extremism any harder? The fact is, 75% of MI5's terrorism related caseload is Islamist extremism related, and the vast majority of terrorist murders in the last 25 years were perpetrated by Islamists. Yet only 13%, one, three, 13% of the prevent caseload is Islamist related. So what does the Home Secretary propose to do about that? Britain gave perpetrator Jihad Al Shami a home when he arrived here from Syria.

He then carried out a brutal attack on a synagogue deliberately targeted at Jewish people on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. We need to reflect very deeply on the implications of that. So today, Mr Speaker, we must all stand together and fight the hatred of extremism and terror. Attacks like this are an attack on our whole nation. We'll never change our way of life, and we will never allow our fellow citizens to be threatened or attacked simply because of their background.

And I know the whole House will want to send out that message today.
16:02
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
The Home Secretary.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Mr Speaker, and can I thank the shadow Home Secretary for thank the shadow Home Secretary for his response and the way in which he has made it, and I look forward to working with him and all members working with him and all members across the House as we deal with this. What I hope will always be a shared issue and a shared problem. And where there are where there is agreement and consensus in this House about the measures that we should take.

I hope that we can should take. I hope that we can progress those matters quickly. He asked specifically in relation to universities. He will have seen, I universities. He will have seen, I hope, the comments from my colleague, my friend in the Department for Education Secretary Department for Education Secretary of State, who has made clear to universities what their responsibilities are. I think it's important that she does that important that she does that engagement before considering what the measures will be if they fail to take all steps to protect Jewish take all steps to protect Jewish students on campus.

But this government is very clear. The universities already have responsibilities, and they need to responsibilities, and they need to demonstrate that they are reflecting those responsibilities and taking those responsibilities and taking appropriate action. He asked a range of questions on other crimes that of questions on other crimes that are being committed. He will, I hope, recognise that this government has worked very closely with has worked very closely with policing, despite lots of disquiet in some quarters in making sure that we have absolutely no tail off in our response to those who support a proscribed terror organisation, he will see that there have been many hundreds of arrests and as long as people continue to show support for a proscribed organisation, they will face the full force of the law every time they do so.

On immigration powers, let me say I'm considering all immigration issues. He will know that for foreign offenders who have both committed a crime and being found guilty in this country, this government has increased deportations of foreign offenders quite significantly. The than the situation that we inherited. I note his points on the wider powers of the 1971 Immigration Act, which I am reviewing, and I will say more to the House, Mr Speaker, in in due course, he also made a number of points in relation to proposed amendments for section 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act.

I hope that when we bring those measures forward, they will receive support in this House, and I am happy to write to him about any of the further details on the Public Order Act, but I am going to review the wider landscape of public order legislation, particularly in relation to cumulative impact of repeat protests. So we are already going to take steps on imposing further conditions and making explicit the cumulative impact is explicitly something that the police should take into account.

But I am going to look at the wider framework. And again, Mr Speaker, I will return to the House in due course with further updates on the legislation. He rightly noted that the protests have continued, Mr Speaker, both before the peace agreement and after the peace agreement in the Middle East, I think we can conclude that not all of those protesting truly wish to see peace in the Middle East, but that is for them to answer to what their motivations really are.

We are very clear that whilst the right to protest is a fundamental freedom in our country, enjoyed by people of all backgrounds and often the cause of grave offence to other people who live within this country, it does have to be balanced against the right for all people to be able to live in safety. He mentioned Islamist extremism in particular. Mr Speaker, let me be clear to him and to this House that this government and I myself as the Home Secretary, have a very clear eyed view of where the threats that face this country are coming from.

It is true that within our domestic extremism landscape, the largest cohort of work that keeps our security services and counter-terror policing busy is related to Islamist extremism. We will not shy away from confronting those issues and dealing with them in the appropriate way. And I guess what has happened in Manchester on the 2nd of October asks a bigger question of all of us. This threat is something that we have been living for with for some time, and we have not yet defeated it.

And I commit myself and the government to doing everything in our power to stand up to this particular threat without fear or favour, to destroy it for good. And I would note for this House that the first people that Islamists often suppress, hurt and damage are their fellow Muslims as well. It is in everyone's interests to fight Islamist extremism wherever it is found. There is a wider, more complex domestic extremism picture, as well as the shadow Secretary of State noted, in relation to the extreme right wing terrorism and an emerging threat of those who do not have a particularly fixed ideology but are fixated on violence.

And it is important that all of our response is measured, follows where the risks are coming from. And we are always asking ourselves what action will be ultimately effective in dealing with those threats. And again, we will redouble our efforts to interrogate the assumptions that have been made in the past, whether they need to be changed and what new, effective action must be pursued. And I hope in that task, we will have support from those across this House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
16:07
Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer MP (Blackley and Middleton South, Labour)
-
-
Graham Stringer.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I thank the Home Secretary for her statement? And I'm sure on for her statement? And I'm sure on behalf of the people of Crumpsall where this atrocity took place, they where this atrocity took place, they would welcome that statement. The only minor was a minor. The only only minor was a minor. The only thing I would add is that while these acts of anti-Semitism and these acts of anti-Semitism and violence are un-british, I think they're inhuman. And that is a they're inhuman.

And that is a better way to describe them than them being un-british. I'd also like them being un-british. I'd also like to thank the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister to for coming to Manchester on the day of this Manchester on the day of this attack. Again, it was much appreciated. And the Home Secretary appreciated. And the Home Secretary had a chance to meet the heroes on this day, because while there was violence and tragedy, there were certainly heroes, not least from the members of the congregation, two of members of the congregation, two of whom lost their life, who protected other members of the congregation from what would undoubtedly have been more deaths.

She also met the been more deaths. She also met the CSG, the police, the fire brigade, who all played an excellent role in getting to the site of this violence as quickly as they could. I have lived in this community next, within a stone's throw of that synagogue. Well, most of my adult life, and I have no doubt the community will remain resilient. It's always been resilient. And the film crews who thronged about the area after this violence were amazed that Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, people, Christians, people of non religion were consoling each other.

There was no hostility at home on the on the street. The final points I want to make are not as heartwarming as as that. There is hope and anger within the local Jewish community. They've known an attack like this was coming for some time. Obviously they didn't know when or where, but it is arrived and they feel that there has developed a hierarchy of racism that somehow Jew hatred is not as important as other kinds of racism.

They feel that there has not been enough done to protect them. The extra security that the Prime Minister and Home Secretary announced is welcome. But what they're looking for is extra action to deal with religious extremists who are involved in illegal activity. So get to the heart of some of the violent activities against the violence against the Jewish community. And the final point I make in one sense, although it's not been done, activities against sorry, taking action against illegal activities is the easier part of it.

But partly because of what's happened in Gaza, many people in the country, we've probably all heard it and witnessed it have thought it's now OK. In a casual dinner party conversation to make anti-Semitic comments. It's not. It's not OK, although it's not against the law for artists. If I could use that word for people like Bob Dylan to be operating and spreading the hate on campuses like Manchester University. So finally, can I ask the Home Secretary, will she look forward to a future with me? Not only that is free of anti-Semitism, but where I don't have to walk past and drive past Jewish schools with security guards outside.
16:11
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
That country? is an assiduous member, constituency Member of Parliament, and I saw for myself firsthand his deep links in the community that he represents in this House, and that he has been a source of real strength in bringing people together in that part of Manchester. Let me say to him, one of the things that as a member of an ethnic and faith minority myself, that I most hate about our political discourse and our national conversation, is this hierarchy of racism.

I hate the way that minority communities feel like we're pitted against one another in a fight for attention, and in a fight for recognition of the difficulties that we as individual groups might face. I think that racism in all of its forms is abhorrent, and I will be as assiduous in fighting the scourge of anti-Semitism in this country as people might expect me as a muslim to be in fighting Islamophobia in this country as well. We are all safe when we are all safe, and I will not stand by and watch our communities forced to compete with one another, forced to explain again and again why they are suffering and why they do not feel safe.

That is unacceptable to me in 21st century Britain. I will not stand for it and it will not be the policy position of this government. Let me also say that that what happened on the 2nd of October, the person who bears the responsibility for what happened was the terrorist attacker himself. I will not name him again today, Mr Speaker, but there is no doubt that events in the Middle East have caused tensions here at home, and some have sought to exploit those tensions.

And I think it is incredibly important that we are very clear eyed in holding the line between what could be legitimate critique of the Israeli government and the actions of the war in the Middle East and against antisemitism. You can be a critic of policy in the Middle East without becoming anti-Semitic and hating Jews and holding Jews in this country to account for things that are nothing to do with them in a country elsewhere. And it is incumbent on all of this to hold that line and to be clear where that line is, so that we speak with one voice and give confidence to our minority communities here at home.

One of the most one of the most devastating things that I heard when I was in Manchester on the day and in the aftermath of the attack, Mr Speaker, was. Our Jewish community expressing how they now won't feel unsafe in their own country, but also that they might never see a time when their children don't have to have security when they go to schools. So whilst it is important that in the immediate aftermath of this attack, we do consider security matters, we do consider an enhancement of police presence and enhancing and deepening our work with the Community Security Trust.

I will not stop until it becomes the case that you can go to a Jewish synagogue and a school in this country without having to go through a security cordon before you do so.
16:15
Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Liberal Democrat spokesperson Max

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Wilkinson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and. I thank the Home Secretary for advance sight of the statement. This advance sight of the statement. This is my first duty as the Home Affairs spokesperson for my party, and I only wish it was not in response to only wish it was not in response to such a tragedy. Our thoughts my party's thoughts are with the families of Adrian Dalby and Melvin families of Adrian Dalby and Melvin Kravitz, who were tragically killed. Our thoughts are with those injured, the congregation and the wider Jewish community, which has been the target of vicious attack on its target of vicious attack on its holiest day, Yom Kippur.

This attack, we must all be clear, did not happen in a vacuum. not happen in a vacuum. Anti-Semitism is widespread on Britain's streets, and British Jews have been living in fear, have been living in fear, particularly since Hamas's horrific terror attacks of October the 7th. The Liberal Democrats are committed The Liberal Democrats are committed to ensuring that our Jewish friends and neighbours feel safe walking the streets and worshipping in their streets and worshipping in their synagogues. Those who spread anti-Semitic hatred or incite violence against Jews, whether violence against Jews, whether online, at marches or elsewhere, must be stopped.

That is never acceptable. I want to thank the Community Security Trust, as the Community Security Trust, as the shadow Home Secretary did for their work. They do an incredible job working with the police to protect Jewish community across our country. I also want to praise its collaboration with organisations like Tell Mama, sharing best practices so that both the Jewish communities and the Muslim communities can be better protected. I look forward to visiting the CCP's headquarters in the near future, as one of my first duties in this role.

We cannot ignore, when we discuss this, the issue of protests. The right to peaceful protest is a cornerstone of our democracy, and it is a right the Liberal Democrats will always protect. But the Liberal Democrats are also acutely aware of the fear felt by the Jewish community and the harassment they have felt at some of these marches. We have too often seen these marches by people spreading anti-Semitism and inciting violence against Jews. As we saw even the night of this appalling attack, my party is unequivocal in its view.

Those who incite anti-Semitism and who carry it out must be met with the full force of the law. Now, I say this advisedly, Mr Speaker. Unfortunately, the government's decisions recently have led to police arresting pensioners for holding up cardboard signs when they should be protecting all communities, including including the Jewish community, from those who would cause harm. This undermines the right to protest and, crucially, means that the police are using their time and resources on other things when they should be protecting people.

The British Jewish community should not have to suffer violence or live in fear simply because of their identity. And we need less thoughts and prayers and more action. So will the Secretary of State, the Home Secretary, confirm what additional physical security the Home Office has provided for the Jewish community since the attack? In addition, we must also tackle the underlying root of modern day anti-Semitism in this country. If the conversations we have make us feel squeamish and lead us to ask questions that promote discomforting answers.

As those questions that I've asked recently have, that is all the more reason to have them and to have them more often. So will the Home Secretary with the Prime Minister convene a summit of interfaith leaders, communal bodies, education heads and the security services to really get a grip of this ever growing crisis of anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism, terrorism and hatred can be defeated, but only if we stand united against them and stand for the values we as British people, hold so dear.
16:18
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
Home Secretary. thank the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats for his response. And where we agree, I hope we will in future be able to work closely together, particularly on issues in relation to protests and in rebuilding interfaith at work in this country, which I think in the last two years, as everybody who's been involved in interfaith work, myself included, will acknowledge, there have been real, real challenges and difficulties there. But we have to think more creatively and redouble our efforts to rebuild relationships that have been deeply, deeply strained.

But I really must say, Mr Speaker, I cannot I cannot accept and leave unchallenged what he had to say about the protests, led primarily by the group defender juries in relation to the proscription of the group Palestine Action. I think the Liberal Democrats have to ask themselves some serious questions. Are they going to stand up for the rule of law in this country? You can, in this House, in this chamber and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

outside, anyone is free. say. That they should be changed, to suggest that the thresholds.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

suggest that the thresholds. Are in the wrong. Place, that they need updating. Fair and legitimate comment. We may disagree, but it is perfectly disagree, but it is perfectly legitimate to debate that in this House and outside as well. What is not acceptable and what is a crime not acceptable and what is a crime under the law of our land, is to support a proscribed organisation. support a proscribed organisation. And members of this House should not feel that they can do anything other than support the law of our land.

And so supporting a proscribed organisation doesn't matter if you organisation doesn't matter if you think it was the wrong thing to do, it is a lie. It is an offence under our terror laws and it will always our terror laws and it will always be met with the full force of the law. And I do say to the Liberal Democrats, they really have to decide if they're going to stand up for the rule of law in this country, and if they have things to say about our terror laws, they have suggestions they want to make, they have amendments, then do that in the normal way in this House, in the normal way in this House, in the legitimate way.

But do not break the rule of law in our country. Mr. Mr Speaker, I think, I think I think Speaker, I think, I think I think the honourable member is speaking from a sedentary position, suggesting that he thinks that policing the protests, where support policing the protests, where support for a proscribed organisation is shown, is somehow a waste of time.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I call it standing up for the rule of law in this area. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Mr Speaker. House. Will share my joy at today's release of the hostages in the Middle East. But.
16:21
16:21
16:22
16:23
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
Secretary. her question. She's absolutely right. The answer can't just be more funding for more security. As I said in response to an earlier, earlier question, I don't want it to be forever the case that in order for Jewish children to go to their local Jewish school, they always have to walk through a security cordon in order to do so. I think it is right that in this in this initial response to the attack, we are focussed on security, because I think it's important we give confidence to the community.

Having seen such a horrific terror attack take place. But the future has to be has to look different from the present and also from the past. It's why the government is going to step up our action on tackling anti-Semitism. Working closely with the independent adviser Lord Mann, and we've set up an anti-Semitism working group, which will make wider societal recommendations, I think in due in due course. It's why the Secretary of State for education has written to universities in particular, to remind them of their responsibilities to students.

So there is already action taking place based on our current arrangements. But I think there is a question for us to ask about the wider picture and how we really deal with this scourge of anti-Semitism has gone on for far too long. It is rising and we do, as a society, need to think more carefully and more deeply about how we tackle that hatred and how we together.
16:24
16:25
16:26
16:27
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Secretary. Thank him for his question, but I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank him for his question, but I think everyone across this House can unite around and agree that it's very important that everybody who very important that everybody who comes to this country makes it their home, chooses to raise their family here, you know, commits themselves to being the best of British. That is certainly my own experience as somebody whose parents came to this country in the late 60s and then in the 70s, I think that actually the vast majority of our minority communities are very proud of being British.

Every survey I've ever seen of minority communities asking them to describe their Britishness actually often finds a huge pride in Britishness and also our Union Jack, our flag, our symbol of our nation. There are obviously some some issues that we have to confront, and there is a question here to be asked about this attacker who had all of the benefits. You know, he came here as a small child and was a naturalised British citizen whilst he was still a minor. He was under 18 when he became British and he committed these attacks in his mid 30s.

There is a question to ask about what went wrong in that period of his life, and those formative years that made him do such an act. I will ensure that those wider lessons are learned, and I will never shy away from honest conversations about either integration or community cohesion in our country. But I also don't want it to be the case that we allow the actions of a minority to make us believe that our majority are not proud of being British, because my own experience, and I think all of the data shows the exact opposite is true.
16:29
16:30
16:31
16:31
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

freedoms that we have always enjoyed. Surely that cannot be the intention of this government. OK.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

OK. The intention of this government is to make sure that the right balance is struck between our balance is struck between our fundamental right to protest, and also making sure our communities can go about their business without living in fear of regular weekly protests on their on their own doorstep. What we are suggesting with the amendments to section 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act, is to make explicit that cumulative impact is something that the police can take into account when imposing conditions, that is, not a removal of the right to protest.

It's just saying that there are some conditions the protest can still carry on, but not in a way that prevents other communities from being able to go about their business with safety and with security. I am surprised and well, I'm not surprised because it's the Scottish National Party, but I would hope, I would hope that across this House we can understand that getting the balance right is delicate and it's difficult. And this is a measure which I think puts us back towards something that looks and feels much more like a balanced situation.

Protest. Go ahead with some conditions. I'd be surprised if that does not get backing from across this House. I hope it does.
16:33
16:33
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my friend for that question. I think one of the things that I was was very, very clear when that I was was very, very clear when I visited soon after the attack was that the main findings from the arena attack was around the ability of the emergency services to respond in a timely way and therefore to save lives. And I can tell him that the emergency service response between the fire service and the police, the ambulance service and everybody else took on board the direct learnings of what happened in the aftermath of the arena attack.

And that is why I pay direct tribute to all of those emergency services, because from the first call coming in to the attacker being shot dead, it was seven minutes and the role was played not just by the armed police response, but by the ambulance service and also the fire service as well. Who happened actually on that day to be going to a different fire, but rerouted and dealt with the aftermath of this terror attack. So I really do pay tribute and those are direct learnings from what happened after the arena attack.

On the wider picture. We will know more once all of the facts are in, in terms of the preparation and the planning of this attack. And I will again, you know, inform him and others in the House if I think there are wider lessons to be drawn. But it is a little early in the investigation, I think, to say that at this stage.
16:35
16:35
16:36
16:37
16:38
16:39
16:40
16:41
16:42
16:43
16:43
16:44
16:45
Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
-
-
Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In Heaton Park, I'm very proud to say that Belmont School in my constituency hosted at the service constituency hosted at the service following a meeting of the Harrow Interfaith Council, people of all

**** Possible New Speaker ****

religions, representatives of all Jewish. Community. Saying that hatred will not be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Saying that hatred will not be allowed to win. However, the Friday before that Shabbat service, I was before that Shabbat service, I was horrified by the fact that just before Shabbat came in, I got frantic phone calls saying none of frantic phone calls saying none of the synagogues had actually had contact from the police as to what would happen the following day, would happen the following day, after some frantic phone calls, the police said, we can do drive bys, we can do various things, but we can't can do various things, but we can't have a permanent presence at this.

At the schools on Shabbat. And the At the schools on Shabbat. And the reason why? Because of the demonstration in central London by Palestine in action, where the Palestine in action, where the police knew they'd have to police these, these demonstrations and arrest the perpetrators, coolly

**** Possible New Speaker ****

arrest the perpetrators, coolly calling out for support for proscribed organisations. So I think.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My constituents and those in London are fed up paying the money for these hate marches and hate for these hate marches and hate demonstrations to take place. So in addition to changing the routes and the meeting places in the times when these demonstrations can take place, how about another suggestion? If they want to organise these hate demonstrations, let them have the bill for the policing that they have to have.
16:46
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
Well. Said. made by previous advisers to both our administration and the previous Conservative administration. I understand the call for those those that do the protest should pay. One of the difficulties is on implementation rather than a disagreement on the substance of that issue. It's one of the things that I'll be looking at in the wider review that that I am doing. It's important that whatever action we take doesn't create more work for policing, and it's why I've already had discussions with senior police officers across the country about what we should do going forward, and I can assure him I will review those measures very carefully, bearing in mind all the previous reports that have been written here.

And I will ensure that the framework we are left with is one that is robust and also capable of being policed properly by the police themselves, and has their confidence as well as that of the communities, because it's important. Whatever we do, we have the resources to meet that. On the specifics of what happened with

**** Possible New Speaker ****

synagogues in his constituency, if he doesn't mind writing to me, I response. Paul Waugh.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Paul Waugh. Yes, thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, can I pass on my sincere condolences to the families.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

sincere condolences to the families. And friends of Melvin. Kravitz and Adrian Dalby, some of whom were in the. Gallery today, earlier. But it's.
16:48
16:48
16:49
16:50
16:50
16:51
16:52
16:52
16:53
Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )
-
-
Stella Creasy Thank you, Madam Speaker. May I join with colleagues in sharing my condolences to the families of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

attack. Last week. Can I also put on record? And I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I also put on record? And I think this whole House would agree. Our support for the Community Security Trust, not just for the work they do tirelessly every week at Shoom.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

at Shoom. But also for. The cross-community work that they do. So many in our country

**** Possible New Speaker ****

they do. So many in our country right now want to divide people, want to find. Points to. Bring people against each other

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bring people against each other that came across. Community work is critical in keeping everybody from our community safe. On that thread. our community safe. On that thread. Then one of the common themes that is coming out, and I allude to the comments of my colleague from

**** Possible New Speaker ****

comments of my colleague from Warrington, is this concern about misogyny and the record of. Many of those involved in violent offences of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

offences of. Violence against women? I know her predecessor was putting together a counter-terrorism strategy that was going.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

was going. To include this. In looking at anti-Semitism. And Islamophobia. As well, and radical Islam. Could

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As well, and radical Islam. Could she update us on that review and where things have got to, so that we can be confident we will get all. Of these people.
16:54
16:55
16:56
16:57
16:58
16:58
16:59
17:00
17:01
17:01
17:02
17:03
17:04
17:04
17:05
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

want. To give herself. The power to stop them altogether? Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But the measure that I've announced will be about placing conditions on marchers both under section 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act. What became very clear to me in the immediate aftermath of the terror attack in Manchester was there was inconsistency of practice across policing forces in the country as to whether the cumulative impact could, in fact be taken into account when they are making their decisions as to whether to place conditions on a march or a protest or not.

The legislation I propose will make explicit that cumulative impact is, in and of itself, a feature that policing can take into account in order to put conditions on a march that it doesn't need to meet any other threshold before conditions could be placed on a march or a protest. On the wider question, that is why I am reviewing the broader legislative framework. I will have more to say about potential bans. Although he will know from his own time at the Home Office, there are consequences to policing and banning of protests, as well as there are of allowing them to go ahead and having conditions.

And again, it's one of those areas where I think a careful balance needs to be struck. I hope there might be cross-party agreement on how we get that careful balance and how we hold it, and ensure that the police are able to police effectively wherever we may decide in the future.
17:06
17:07
17:08
Tom Morrison Portrait Tom Morrison MP (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Tom Morrison.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And can. I join the Home Secretary. In paying. Tribute to. CST and Greater Manchester Emergency Services for their Emergency Services for their response on the day, and particularly to those brave members of the congregation who ran and protected. Their fellow members. And

**** Possible New Speaker ****

protected. Their fellow members. And can I also thank the Home Secretary for her. Quick response and come into. Greater Manchester? As a Greater Manchester.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As a Greater Manchester. MP myself, I know it meant a great deal to our community. I'm

**** Possible New Speaker ****

great deal to our community. I'm Congregation. In. My. Constituency. As well as North. Cheshire Jewish Primary School. And. I met.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I met. With the rabbi. The Monday. Before this. Horrendous attack, and we talked about the genuine fear in our

**** Possible New Speaker ****

about the genuine fear in our community, about the rise in. Anti-Semitism, which was a horrendous. happen.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

happen. At Heaton Park. I completely. Agree with the Home Secretary's should. Not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Not. Be the answer. But we are in this situation where more security currently is needed. So can I ask currently is needed. So can I ask her to assure the House that and the Jewish community that greater resources will be given to CST, the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

resources will be given to CST, the police and local authorities to ensure greater visible protection around our. Synagogues and our local.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Synagogues and our local. Jewish schools, not just in the immediate term, but as long as necessary to reassure the community. That they are safe. Yeah.
17:10
17:10
17:11
17:12
17:13
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
terrorists. All of these things contribute to the feeling that I was getting from the Jewish community, which is that they do not feel safe in this country.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

They well, look, one of the things that has happened after this things that has happened after this attack is it has shone a light on the burden that British Jews bear every single day, just in order to live an ordinary Jewish life. And there is nothing worse than there is nothing worse than imagining little children in our country having to go through drills every day at school in order to keep every day at school in order to keep themselves safe.

And I would hope that everyone across this House can commit ourselves collectively to commit ourselves collectively to doing everything that we can to root out the evil of anti-Semitism, because no child should have to do because no child should have to do what it has become ordinary and normal for British Jewish children in our country. That is a disgrace in our country. That is a disgrace for us all. It shames us all, and it is something that we absolutely need to work together in order to fix.

Let me say, on interfaith work, he Let me say, on interfaith work, he is right. In the last two years, many times people who have done interfaith work for 20 or 30 years interfaith work for 20 or 30 years have told me it has fallen off a cliff. There are no easy answers for how you get it up and running again. how you get it up and running again. I think it will take careful, delicate work to bring people together again, to rebuild some trust between communities, between our Muslim and our Jewish communities.

Let me be frank about that. I think with enough goodwill and a sort of British generosity of spirit, it is possible for us to get that work up and running. I do see it as crucial in tackling the scourge of anti-Semitism, other forms of hatred, and in making sure that our country is a safe place for people of all different communities. And I hope that is something the whole House will support you.
17:14
17:15
17:16
17:17
17:17
17:18
17:18
17:19
17:19
17:20
17:21
17:22
17:22
17:23
17:23
Ellie Chowns Portrait Dr Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)
-
-
Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Green Party stands. Shoulder to shoulder in. Cross-party. Solidarity with. The. Victims and survivors.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The. Victims and survivors. Of the horrific attack. On the Heaton Park synagogue. And I'd like to. Pay tribute, particularly to those who.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

those who. Put their own lives. At risk. To bring it to a swift stop. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To bring it to a swift stop. The Home Secretary today has. personally. On the. Point that the fight against the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Point that the fight against the. Scourge of anti-Semitism is the same prejudice.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

prejudice. I very much. Welcome that, and. I'm sure she will. Agree with me that it's essential

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Agree with me that it's essential to. Say loud and clear and unequivocally that prejudice, hatred or violence against Jewish people.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

or violence against Jewish people. Is totally. Unacceptable in our country. And will not be tolerated.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And will not be tolerated. The Home Secretary has used. This opportunity, this. Moment today to announce.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

today to announce. Further restrictions on protests. Which. I confess to you. Concern me. Important points have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Concern me. Important points have been raised in the chamber today regarding.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The radicalisation within online spaces. Yeah, important. Points have been raised. Regarding radicalisation.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Regarding radicalisation. Within online spaces. I would like to. Ask the. Home Secretary. Will she ensure.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

takes. Is focussed on building. Solidarity between communities
17:25
17:25
17:26
17:26
17:27
17:27
17:28
17:28
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

crime. Jim Shannon thank you. Speaker. Can I. First of all, give my condolences

**** Possible New Speaker ****

First of all, give my condolences to those who lost their lives as. A. Result of. The Manchester. Synagogue attack and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Synagogue attack and. To those who suffer the trauma and the loss of their family. Can I thank you very much for the strong thank you very much for the strong and public statement and the circular today speaks for everyone in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern when it comes to condemning strongly by her words, I was absolutely sickened than shocked to hear the report on the Yom Kippur of the attack on Manchester and the loss of life that ensued.

And it is an established faith, of course, anti-Semitism in the UK is once again on the rise to such an extent that their security details at all religious events. I can well remember in Northern Ireland, after the dark day, whole massacre, many churches and probably all churches across Northern Ireland who had extra security details on their church doors. But those dark days are behind us in Northern Ireland, but they're not behind our Jewish friends we've witnessed the last few times, so they require action, not words and above all, honestly about the threat level against them.

Just how well the site is. They provide assurances to the Jewish communities that are more

**** Possible New Speaker ****

than media soundbites, but are trusted. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. I can assure him and the House that this government will have that this government will have action. We've already taken action. There will be more to come, and I know that it will be debated in this know that it will be debated in this House over the coming weeks and months, but this is not a moment for warm words. It is a moment for
17:30
17:31
17:31
Iqbal Mohamed Portrait Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)
-
-
I joined the Home.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Members across the House in. My unequivocal condemnation. Of the. Heinous terrorist and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Heinous terrorist and anti-Semitic attack against Jewish worshippers in Manchester, and. to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to. The family. And friends of Mr. Dalby and Mr. Kravitz. As a proud.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As a proud. remind. The House, in those listening,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the actions of these so-called Islamist. Terrorists were. Vile, unacceptable. But they have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Vile, unacceptable. But they have nothing to. Do with the religion of Islam and are actually in total contradiction to the. Teachings of Islam and the obligations. Of all Muslims. In my constituency of Muslims. In my constituency of Dewsbury and Batley and across the country, Muslims are joined the country, Muslims are joined the Jewish community in being saddened and angered by the terrorist attack and angered by the terrorist attack in Manchester and in any and all hatred. And violence expressed

**** Possible New Speaker ****

hatred. And violence expressed against any community, and we stand in full solidarity. With them. Will the Home Secretary, the Home

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Will the Home Secretary, the Home Secretary, said that the terrorist was not known to the police or to the prevent programme.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the prevent programme. So will she. Advise this House what. Steps are being taken to address any gaps identified in our preventive measures, so that such acts.
17:33
17:33
17:34
17:35
17:35
17:36
17:36
17:37
17:38
17:38
17:39
None Portrait Mr Speaker
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Right. We'll let the benches change over. Right before we come to Minister's statement on the China case before the minister, I will wish to make a brief statement. Members will know that I've already put on record my disappointment that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the charges against two individuals relating to espionage for the Chinese authorities have been dropped. Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. The only disappointment. But I'm very angry. It is of the utmost very angry. It is of the utmost importance to me that all those who work in this Parliament are able to work in this Parliament are able to undertake their activities securely and without interference. I continue to seek advice from officials on to seek advice from officials on what further steps might be taken to pursue the issue in other ways. I pursue the issue in other ways.

I will be issuing an updated security guidance to members later today. I think there is something the government ought to be aware of. It is this this Parliament that has is this this Parliament that has been spied on? It is MPs who have been here. It is MPs offices that been here. It is MPs offices that have been infiltrated. And as it stands, what we have seen is the payment for spying on what? I believe we should be protected. At this moment.

I feel we haven't had the protection. I certainly don't blame the minister. I know that he will be answering a lot in this will be answering a lot in this statement and taking many questions, but I do want to put on record. I'm angry. I'm disappointed. My job is angry. I'm disappointed. My job is to protect Parliament. I feel we aren't getting that protection. I now call the Security minister, Doug Jones. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
17:40
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-
I want.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To update the House, with your permission, on. The. Facts surrounding the collapse of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the trial of Christopher Case and Christopher Berry. Christopher for Berry and Christopher Cash. However. Following.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Following. On from the Home Secretary's statement, I also want to take the opportunity to express my deepest sympathies for the victims and families of those affected by the abhorrent terror attack that occurred at Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation Synagogue in Manchester on Yom Kippur. Tragically, two

**** Possible New Speaker ****

on Yom Kippur. Tragically, two members of the UK's Jewish community lost their lives. They remain. In our. Thoughts and I know the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In our. Thoughts and I know the thoughts of the whole House at this very difficult time. I also express. My gratitude for the rapid reactions of the emergency responders, the security services and members of that local community.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and members of that local community. Two days later, a mosque in Peacehaven, East Sussex, was targeted in an arson attack. Fortunately.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Fortunately. No one was injured. My thoughts and I'm sure the thoughts of. The.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Whole House will be. With members of that local community there as well. We remain

**** Possible New Speaker ****

community there as well. We remain all. Its forms. Now. Mr Speaker, as I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr Speaker, as I. Told the House in September, the. Government remains. Extremely disappointed. By the outcome of the Christopher

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Kash and Christopher Berry case. I understand the strength. Of feeling.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of feeling. Across the House and. Share the deep. Frustration that these individuals will not face trial,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

individuals will not face trial, while the decision. Not to. Proceed was an independent one

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Proceed was an independent one made by the Crown Prosecution Service. The government. Remains gravely.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Remains gravely. Concerned about the security of our democratic institutions, and is our democratic institutions, and is crystal clear that our Parliament must and will be protected from espionage.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That is. Why, Mr Speaker. I am announcing today MI5's National Protective Security. Authority will be taking further steps to protect our democratic

**** Possible New Speaker ****

steps to protect our democratic institutions from foreign interference, and I will set out more details on that in. A moment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A moment. Now, Mr Speaker, since I addressed the House on the 15th of September, there. Has been correspondence.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Has been correspondence. Between honourable members, the government and the Crown Prosecution Service. There has also been widespread and at times wholly inaccurate reporting in the media. Mr Speaker, I will address the details set out by the Crown

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Prosecution Service and the basis on evidence. To support the case.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But first, let me underline a fundamental point, one that has too often been overlooked. In recent.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In recent. Days. Including by the party opposite.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Including by the party opposite. The CPS brought these charges under the previous government, under the legislation that was in place at the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

legislation that was in place at the time, the Official Secrets Act. Of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

1911, an antiquated law that is clearly no longer fit for purpose. In addressing the complex and In addressing the complex and sophisticated nature of the state threats that we face today. It has been clear for many years that this legislation has not kept pace with the modern state threats that we face today.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

face today. It was evident. That the Official Secrets Act was no longer fit for purpose as early

**** Possible New Speaker ****

no longer fit for purpose as early as 2015. When Conservative. Ministers tasked the Law Commission. With reviewing this antiquated legislation. Ten years ago. Mr Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In 2020. The Law Commission and the Intelligence and Security Committee

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Intelligence and Security Committee of this House were both clear that this legislation, drafted before. The First World.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

War, needed to be updated as a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

War, needed to be updated as a matter of urgency. It referred to espionage as any sketch, plan, espionage as any sketch, plan, model, article, notes, document, or information that might be useful to information that might be useful to an enemy. These terms are archaic in the modern threat landscape that we the modern threat landscape that we now face. That is why, on this side of the House, we supported the passing of the National Security Act of 2023 on a cross-party basis, closing the loopholes that have been exposed by this particular case.

Now, Mr Speaker, the Director of Now, Mr Speaker, the Director of Public Prosecutions has written to the chairs of the home and the the chairs of the home and the Justice Select Committee about this case, and it is welcome that these facts have been set out. He has made facts have been set out. He has made clear that charges were brought in clear that charges were brought in April of 2024, based on the law as it stood at the time of the it stood at the time of the offences.

The deputy national security adviser, a senior official security adviser, a senior official with very extensive experience in matters relating to national security, provided a witness statement in December 2023. Under the previous government. Further witness statements were requested and provided in February and July of this year. All of the evidence provided by the Deputy National Security Adviser was based on the law at the time of the offence and the policy position of the Conservative government at the time of the offence.

Every effort was made to provide evidence to support this case within those constraints. Now the decision about whether to proceed with the prosecution was ultimately taken by the CPS, who were hamstrung by antiquated legislation that had not been updated by the previous Conservative government.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Between frontbench. Is pleased. This is very important. The serious matter we can do

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The serious matter we can do about the side chatter. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Despite the evolving nature of the state threats that we face, the DPP has given his assurance that the CPS were not influenced by any external party, any member of this government, nor any member of this government, nor any senior civil servant or special adviser working within it. And I adviser working within it. And I want to be clear again today, as the government has before, that suggestions that the government concealed evidence, withdrew witnesses or restricted the ability witnesses or restricted the ability of witnesses to draw on particular of witnesses to draw on particular bits of evidence are all untrue.

The NSA did not materially changes NSA did not materially changes evidence and was under no pressure from anyone to do so. Mr Speaker, from anyone to do so. Mr Speaker, what has changed is the CPS assessment of the case law. The DPP assessment of the case law. The DPP has explained that the ruling by the High Court, in a separate case, The High Court, in a separate case, The Crown versus Rusev, ruled on the threshold for evidence needed to prosecute under the antiquated 1911 legislation.

In light of this new judgement, the CPS independently decided to seek further evidence, but the fact remains that it was not the policy of the Conservative government to classify China as a threat to national security. As the Right Honourable Member for Braintree said as Foreign Secretary. Summing up China in one word as a threat was un quoting impossible, impractical and most importantly, unwise. Now, I've listened with interest in recent days to advice from former Conservative ministers on how the UK should now define our approach to China.

But I must remind them, and the House, that what matters is what their policy was in government. The previous government set out its position on China in the 2021 Integrated Review, where they described China as a systemic challenge to UK security. In the Integrated Review refresh of 2023. They described China as an epoch defining challenge. That's why, and as the Prime Minister has explained, the current government's policy position was immaterial to the assessment that was made by the CPS.

Now, ministers cannot retrospectively change policy that existed under the Conservative government and as stated before, the CPS decision to drop the case was not influenced by any member of this government, nor special adviser or senior official. Now, Mr Speaker, in this moment of profound global change and in security, these matters have led to discussion about this government's approach to China. So let me set that out before the House today. We must tackle the threats China poses from cyber security attacks, foreign interference and espionage targeting our democratic institutions to the transnational repression of Hong Kongers in the UK.

This government is unequivocal. The first duty of the government is to keep people safe, and we fully recognise that China poses a series of threats to UK national security. Yet we must also be alive to the fact that China does present us with opportunities. It is the world's second largest economy and together with Hong Kong, the UK's third largest trading partner. The only way to act in the UK's best interest is to take a long term and strategic approach.

This means working in close coordination with Five Eyes and wider allies to build collective resilience against the threats that China poses. Investing in our intelligence services and being unequivocal about our position on human rights. It also means developing a consistent and pragmatic approach to economic engagement without compromising on our national security. To that end, let let me set out the recent actions the government has taken to strengthen UK security against state threats, including those posed by China and MI5's National Protective Security Authority has today launched new guidance to protect the UK's democratic institutions from foreign interference.

The guidance will help honourable members in this and the other place. Members of the devolved legislatures, local councillors, mayors and elected representatives staff to better understand the nature of the threat. It also provides simple, effective steps for individuals at risk to protect themselves, their teams and the integrity of our democratic processes. This guidance will kick start a wider cross-government action plan that is being driven through the Defending Democracy Task Force to reduce foreign interference and espionage threats to UK democratic institutions.

This will be delivered in close coordination with the parliamentary security authorities. Now, I'd like to take a moment to urge all members of this House to be alert and to follow the guidance. I also urge members to take up the National Cyber Security Centre's important opt in service for members of both houses. The government also remains steadfast in its commitments to holding China's state linked actors accountable for wide scale cyber espionage. In September, NCC, NCC concealed a US led technical advisory calling out Chinese state sponsored cyber threat actors targeting global networks, including here in the UK.

I can reassure the House that we continue to keep all tools under review, and will act as necessary to reduce their threat. Now, Mr Speaker, the government is also committed to legislate to further strengthen safeguards against foreign interference. This specifically includes a new elections bill to strengthen safeguards against covert foreign political funding. It also involves taking forward the recommendations from the Independent Reviewer for State Threats legislation. Mr Speaker, let me finish by reiterating this government's unwavering commitment to national security and to keeping our country safe.

We will take all necessary action to deter those who seek to do us harm, and ensure that the UK is best placed to tackle state threats. That includes threats emanating from China. I commend this statement to the House. The leader of the opposition, Kemi. Badenoch. Yes. myself.
17:54
Kemi Badenoch Portrait Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
-
-
With the Minister's.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Remarks about Heaton Park Synagogue? And can I thank you, Mr Speaker, for all the work that you've done on for all the work that you've done on the security of members. No one has worked harder to protect the worked harder to protect the integrity of our Parliament. Mr. Mr Speaker of the Security Minister or Madam Deputy Speaker, I should say Madam Deputy Speaker, I should say the Security Minister is very well regarded. So I'm sorry to see him sent here again making these sent here again making these arguments, which will not wash.

This is about the ineptitude of the is about the ineptitude of the government, and I cannot accept much of what he says. He's brought some updates to the House, which we acknowledge. But in essence, China spied on this Parliament and they're spied on this Parliament and they're issuing us with leaflets. This is not good enough. Mr Speaker, there are members here today who have been are members here today who have been spied on by China, who are sanctioned by China. Even the Deputy sanctioned by China.

Even the Deputy Speaker has been sanctioned. All MPs speaking today should be acting in the national interest. Nothing else. the national interest. Nothing else. Let's remind ourselves of what has happened. Two men have been accused happened. Two men have been accused of spying on MPs in this very building. The CPS had what it felt building. The CPS had what it felt was a clear and compelling case to prosecute. But the trial has collapsed because for months and months the government has been refusing to give the CPS vital information.

This wasn't a mistake. This wasn't a misunderstanding. This looks like a deliberate decision to collapse the case and curry favour with the regime in China. And instead of admitting this. The security minister has come here blaming the Official Secrets Act. But we know that the act was enough to prosecute this case. Its deficiencies had nothing to do with the governance failures. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I remind the House how serious this is? If the government does not prosecute those who spy on us, it sends a message to the public that the government does not care about their safety.

It's it sends a message to our allies who share intelligence with us that Britain cannot be trusted. And it sends a message to those who spy on us that they can get away with it. Let's look at the facts. First, the government blamed the CPS. The minister came to the House on the 15th of September. He claimed that he had only become aware of this decision that day, and that the CPS decision had been an entirely independent one. He repeats that assertion today.

He said, I am not able to talk about why the CPS has decided to make this decision. He said it was not for him to speculate on the reasons he told the member for Rutland to seek a meeting if she wanted to find out the reasons. But we now know, despite all he has just said, that the trial collapsed because the government refused to give the CPS what it needed and the minister knew full well why it had collapsed. Because the Director of Public prosecution has said he spent months trying to get the government to provide the evidence it needed.

Second, they tried blaming the previous government, just like the Prime Minister. The minister claims the CPS couldn't prosecute because the last government didn't describe China as a threat. I cannot believe that he would actually say that he knows what we said. He knows. Let me remind him. Madam Deputy Speaker, for starters, the 2021 Integrated Review described China as listen carefully the biggest state based threat to the UK's economic security. The 2023 Integrated Review refresh said China posed. Let's listen carefully.

A threat several times in 2024. The then minister for security said from that despatch box that China poses a serious threat. Yeah, but even if the last government had not said China was a threat and it did, the government only needed to convince a jury that it was a threat. And he knows that. I am astonished that the minister has repeated this nonsense today.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. The minister and the Prime Minister's argument on this has been Minister's argument on this has been refuted by no less than a former DPP. Two former Cabinet secretaries, one a former national security one a former national security adviser, refuted by two former heads of MI6 and a professor of public law of MI6 and a professor of public law at the University of Cambridge, who said today that ministers statements said today that ministers statements so far are misleading about the legal position.

They are all clear legal position. They are all clear that these people could have been prosecuted under the old legislation. Is it the government's position that they are all wrong and position that they are all wrong and they're right? Yes. Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister references Crown versus Rousseff. That case Crown versus Rousseff. That case last year, he refers to you in his statement, made it easier to prosecute, not harder. And as the former director of public prosecution says, recruiting people prosecution says, recruiting people to spy on MPs of itself clearly constitutes a threat to national security.

Only this government could security. Only this government could mess that up. Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that the national security we know that the national security adviser, Jonathan Powell, has a very close relationship with China. Are we supposed to believe that he was not involved in the substance of the case and discussions around that, as they say? What does that even mean? He was in those meetings acting in the name of the Prime Minister. Do they really expect us to believe that? He never mentioned to the Prime Minister any of this at any point? Madam Deputy Speaker, we know from the CPS that they spent months and months asking the government for evidence they needed.

The government says it was not the NSA who took the decision not to give it to them. So who was it who made that decision? Can the minister answer that today? Is it seriously the government's argument that no minister knew anything about this until the trial collapsed? If this is the case, it is astonishing. But my suspicion, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that it is not the case. My suspicion is that ministers did know they have the Chinese super embassy in their in-tray.

They have £1 billion compensation. Compensation? They are allegedly being asked to pay for nationalising British Steel. I suspect that they have decided that closer economic ties with China were more important than due process and or national security, and if this is the case, if that was the decision of this government, then they should just tell us that and have the backbone to admit it. They should explain it to the public. They should explain it to the CPS. They should explain it to our international allies and let them all be the judge.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this is not going away. There is nowhere to hide. I wrote to the Prime Minister today, and I would like to know when I will get a response to my questions. And we have also written to the CPS to ask if this trial can be reopened. If the government finally provides the evidence its been holding back. We know that the evidence that the CPS needs exists and if the government decides not to provide it, then we will know it is because this week, Prime Minister does not have the backbone to stand up to Beijing year.
18:01
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-
Madam Deputy Speaker, I do find it genuinely astonishing that at no point the leader of the opposition acknowledge that all of these acts that we've been talking about this afternoon happened when she was in government on her watch, and also because I believe it's important to discuss these matters in a fair and reasonable way. I particularly made sure that she had early sight of the statement I was intending to give her, to give her ample opportunity.

She clearly has not read the statement. She either didn't read the statement or didn't listen to what I said, because she's asked me

**** Possible New Speaker ****

a number of order. This statement is very, very important, but to me and for my

**** Possible New Speaker ****

important, but to me and for my constituents, please, let's hear the minister. Minister. Thank you. I took every opportunity to give her as long as I opportunity to give her as long as I possibly could, so that she could look at the points that we were seeking to raise today. And she's asked me questions that I answered in my earlier responses. And I say that to her because it's important, that to her because it's important, I think, that we seek to discuss these things in a reasonable way.

these things in a reasonable way. Matters relating. Right honourable gentleman sort of guffaws from a sedentary position. I think actually sedentary position. I think actually it is important that on matters relating to national security, we should seek to discuss these in a reasonable and consensual way. And that is the approach of this government. I'm genuinely really sorry that she's taken the opportunity to make a whole series opportunity to make a whole series of baseless smears this afternoon, of baseless smears this afternoon, but but perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised, because the statement that we've heard from the leader of the opposition is sadly typical of what we've heard from some of her colleagues in recent days.

Now, for colleagues in recent days. Now, for days, the parties party opposite has been making baseless claims that this government deliberately collapsed an independent legal process through political interference. It's not a shred of evidence to back up any of those actions that she's made. And I really don't think, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a responsible way to discuss matters of national security. I remind the leader of the opposition that whatever members might say this afternoon, we are here today because of legislation that existed under the previous government and because of policy that existed under the previous government.

Now, the leader of the opposition, the leader of the opposition, referenced the letter that she had written to the Prime Minister. Now, because we want to take the opportunity to respond to her in a timely fashion, I'm going to do that now and respond to the points that she made to the to the Prime Minister earlier on. But in case that she has forgotten, it was the Right honourable lady herself in September of last year and said, and I quote, I have shied away from calling China a threat.

And she and that was the right honourable lady. And she articulated that the previous government's policy as Business Secretary, saying in September of 2023, and these are her words. We should certainly not be describing China as a foe. The right honourable ladies own words. Now, a number of questions have been raised from the opposition frontbench, including in the Right honourable ladies letter that she published earlier today. And I'm very happy to set out the government's response to the answers that she has asked.

First, on the question of what ministers knew about the government's interactions with the C.p.s, ministers were aware that evidence was being provided by the Deputy National Security Adviser to the CPS as they built a case for prosecution, as was first agreed under the previous government. Ministers and special advisers did not take decisions about that evidence, and they were not cited on the contents. The deputy national security adviser was given full freedom to provide evidence without interference, as was the case before the general election.

Second, on whether the Prime Minister was briefed by ministers or the national security adviser about this case, she asked that question in her letter. The Prime Minister has already confirmed he was briefed on this, a case by officials, not least because the case began under the previous Conservative government. Third, there have been various reports alleging that in a meeting in September, the national security adviser ruled that China could not be defined as a threat and took decisions relating to witnesses or evidence.

This is simply untrue. Of course, the NSA takes part in discussions about national security and diplomatic relations. That is literally his job. But any discussions were on the basis that the case would be going ahead, and how to handle the implications. The national security adviser was not involved in any decisions about the substance of the evidence. And in answer to the fourth question that was raised by the leader of the opposition. That means he made no decisions about the content of any evidence.

Well, honourable members have asked for a thorough explanation, and I'm giving that to them. They might pay the House the courtesy of listening to the responses. So that means that national security adviser made no decisions about the content of any evidence relating to the case itself. This was a matter for the deputy national security adviser, a hugely experienced, highly capable senior official who provided evidence under the previous administration on questions about when and I are. The ministers were aware that the case would not be proceeding.

Ministers were informed after the DPP had made his decision and shortly before reporting restrictions were lifted. The House will note that I came to the House straight away to make a statement. Finally, on the question of whether it might still have been possible to argue successfully in court that China was a threat, regardless of the previous government's position not to do so. That was a judgement for the Crown Prosecution Service. However, the deputy national security adviser provided evidence reflecting the threats posed by China as the CPS built their case and on the comments, and she referenced them made by two former Cabinet secretaries.

I note they have both remarked that the Official Secrets Act was not fit for purpose. Of course, if the conservatives offset had been swifter in replacing it, we wouldn't be here today. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, safeguarding our national security is the most fundamental responsibility of this government. In 14 years of Conservative rule, they were slow both to update our national security laws and adapt to the national security realities that we face today. And if we were to follow the approach of the party opposite, to ignore China and to refuse to engage with China, that is what would undermine our national security.

And we will always defend our national interest on this side of the House.
18:08
Emily Thornberry Portrait Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)
-
-
Chair of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Committee, Dame Emily Thornberry. Thank you. Very. Much, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I begin by expressing solidarity with

**** Possible New Speaker ****

begin by expressing solidarity with the two previous Conservative chairs of the Foreign Affairs Committee, who would seem to have suffered. Having two Chinese. Spies in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Spies in. Their offices. And how very distressing and. Upsetting and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Threatening that must have been. The DPP's claim of needing further evidence.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

evidence. decision. Not to publish. The. China audit has, I think, become

**** Possible New Speaker ****

China audit has, I think, become conflated. And has resulted in a great. Deal of muddle. And confusion. And allegations that the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And allegations that the government has soft. Peddling on China. rabbit.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hole, may I perhaps take us. Back to basics, which is these. Men were charged. As I understand.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It, with, with, with an offence under section one, one C of the Official Secrets Act. And the. Offence is to. Pass on.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Pass on. directly. Or. Indirectly useful.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Indirectly useful. To an enemy. Now, when the Crown Prosecution Service are building their case, presumably they had a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

witness, and presumably that witness was the deputy national security adviser who. Was there to answer.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was there to answer. The question, Is China an enemy? And without that evidence, there is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

no point in charging them in 2024. And what has changed since 2024?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And what has changed since 2024? We're told that what has changed is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that enemy has is now. Just quiet. And all that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And all that. This House will listen to. The honourable Right Honourable member

**** Possible New Speaker ****

honourable Right Honourable member with some respect, their memory former. So the so. It seems. That there is now case law saying

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That there is now case law saying an enemy is a threat to national security. Frankly. That seems. To. Me to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Me to. Be a lower test, not a higher test. But if in 2024 there was evidence that China was an. Enemy and the Crown Prosecution Service and the Crown Prosecution Service have made a decision to prosecute on that basis, then I cannot understand why there has been a change now. The why there has been a change now. The only other answer is that the Crown Prosecution Service did not properly

**** Possible New Speaker ****

assess the evidence before making those charges. It does seem to me. That moving away from all the.
18:11
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Light, heat and fury, those are the central points. Yeah, yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm grateful to her. She talked about muddle and confusion and she's right. There's been a lot of particularly ill informed commentary in previous days. And that's precisely why the government proactively has brought a statement to the House today in order to set out the facts of this particular trial, and I'm very happy to be able to do that. But let me do that again for her. The DPP has set out the reasons at the heart of his decision not to take this case to trial.

He believed the evidential test was not met. The DPP took an independent decision on the evidence, as Will set out in his letter of the 7th of October. The DNC did not materially change his evidence and was under no pressure from anyone to do so. And as her constituency neighbour, the Prime Minister, has explained very clearly the current government's policy position was immaterial to this assessment. It is only the government's policy at the time that the alleged offences were committed that is relevant now.

She will understand that the CPS decision to drop the case was not influenced by any member of this government, nor special adviser or senior official. I have been crystal clear about that today, and the Director of Public Prosecutions has given his assurance that the CPS were not influenced by any external party and as the government has already stated before, the suggestion that the government concealed evidence or withdrew or leant on witnesses are all untrue. Yeah.
18:12
Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Liberal Democrat spokesperson Max Wilkinson. advance sight of his statement. Over the weekend, Sir John Sills became the latest former intelligence chief to express disbelief at the collapse of this espionage case. And our intelligence allies are now also questioning whether the UK can be trusted to counter China's growing threat. It's vital that we have a clear answer on who in government is responsible for the failure to bring this case to trial. Sadly, instead of clear answers, we've heard ministers over the weekend delivering vague and cryptic lines to take.

The nation has a right to understand which figures within government were involved with in this process, not to proceed with a prosecution. Now, given the Minister's statement that the government has not concealed the evidence or suppressed anything, will the Minister commit to publishing a timeline? Who knew what? When did they know it? Who said what and when? Will he publish correspondence between all officials, politicians and advisers involved with the CPS? If he will, we can gain the clarity that we need and the British public needs today.

Can the Minister confirm again with full confidence that the Prime Minister or any individuals who act on his behalf, played no role in any decision to prevent the supply of relevant evidence to the CPS that might or might not include words of gentle encouragement. Either way, we must learn the lessons from this appalling episode so that we can have confidence in the ability of our national security laws to protect our interests and protect our democracy. That is the job of us in this House.

This is the only way to provide the British public with the answers that they deserve and that they demand, and to rebuild the UK's credibility with Five Eyes allies. So will the government commit today to holding a statutory independent inquiry into the China spying case? Now we know China poses a clear threat to this country's interests and values. That view is shared by those of us on these benches, as well as our intelligence chiefs. Yet the government's approach to this case is only the latest example of its unwillingness to challenge Beijing's efforts both to expand its espionage capabilities in the UK and to export transnational repression to our shores.

It is time for this government to take the steps necessary to protect our interests and those of our citizens working with the CPS. Will the government look at all legislative options to prosecute the two individuals involved? Those options are still available. Will the government today block the application for the Chinese Mega embassy? And will the Minister add China to the enhanced tier of the Foreign Influence registration scheme?
18:15
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-
Yeah. him to his new role. As he may know, I'm a regular visitor to his constituency and I pay tribute to the important national security work that takes place there. He's asked me a number of questions and with great respect to him, I hope that he will concede that I have responded to a number of them already. I did though, just want to pick up the point he made about releasing information, because I think that is an entirely reasonable question that he has sought to bring forward today.

What I can say to him about that is it is not for me to make decisions regarding evidence in the publication, which may still be used in any further ongoing legal processes. So I hope he understands the reason why I'm not able to commit to do that at the moment. I absolutely take issue with the analysis with regard to the government's relationship with China, particularly with regard to transnational repression. I hope you will accept that the government takes that very seriously. We've done a lot of work through the Defending Democracy Task Force to ensure that we have the right resources in the right place to protect all of those who live here in the UK from the impact of transnational repression.

But I'm very happy to discuss that with him further. He specifically raised the importance of our Five Eyes alliance, and I agree with him the importance of that. That's precisely why the UK has just very recently hosted the five countries ministerial gathering here in London, where we cemented the excellent relationship that we have with our Five Eyes partners. We share intelligence with them on, I say, well know, a very regular basis. That is a relationship that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

is in good health and has in no way been undermined by recent events. Chair, the Justice Select Committee, Andy Slaughter.
18:17
18:17
18:18
18:18
18:19
18:20
18:21
18:22
18:23
18:24
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-
conviction? And if not, could you tell us what he's doing to make sure that this doesn't happen again? Well, I'm grateful to him, not because it is actually a very useful question. And parliamentarians should be asking themselves the kind of question that the honourable member has just asked me. Yes, I can give him that assurance. And from this despatch box, on many occasions I have made clear the importance that this government attaches, as I'm sure the previous government did, to the National Security Act.

It was a groundbreaking piece of legislation, and I previously, as the Right Honourable, my predecessor, will acknowledge on numerous occasions I've paid tribute to those who've been involved with it. His question is the right one. The NSA closed the loopholes that we are essentially debating today, so I can give him those assurances that our legislative framework is in a much better place than it was a couple of years ago. That said, because this government takes these matters incredibly seriously, we constantly look at the legislative framework to assure ourselves that it's appropriate.

We work very closely with Jonathan Paul Casey, who has made a recommendations on behalf of the request from government about our legislative

**** Possible New Speaker ****

framework. And we've made a commitment that wherever there's a requirement for more legislation, we will bring it forward. Yeah.
18:25
18:26
18:27
18:28
18:28
Tom Tugendhat Portrait Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP (Tonbridge, Conservative)
-
-
Tom Tugendhat. the minister in his place and I have been friends for many, many years and so it gives me no pleasure to say this. The statement that he has read out today, no doubt under instruction, has thrown out more chaff, set up more straw men than a Russian disinformation campaign. It's pure fabrication to claim that those are the relevant points. And sadly, he knows it. He knows it because we discussed many of these issues when he was in opposition and I was in his place.

He knows it because the various different security and defence reviews that have been updated in the last four years have set out the clear position of the threat. He knows it because when I sat or stood at the despatch box, as he does on the 15th of April 2024, I made clear the position of China being a threat. And he knows it, I'm afraid, because the truth is the right hon. Lady, the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, set out exactly the right question, and that is that the DPP has asked a very clear question why have we not had the information in time for these cases to proceed? He didn't.

Say that the evidential threshold wasn't met. If it had not been met, then this arrest should never have happened. And he should be rightly calling the head of MI5, the head of the Council of Terror police and the Treasury Solicitor before him for abuse of power. He's not doing that because he knows the threshold was met. Instead, he should read the words of the DPP. The threshold is no longer met. Now no longer means that there has been a change. There has been a change because something has changed.

Now, that change could either be a commission or an omission. And from what we've heard today, from the way that the government has very carefully used language, it sounds much more likely that something has not been done than that it has. Now, as my friend knows, simply ignoring an order is not the same thing as not receiving one. And I'm afraid what this has done, and what this statement does, is advertised that the UK is not willing to defend itself against threats from hostile states.

And I know that's not a position that he wishes to advocate in.
18:31
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-
Well. is, of course, as the House will know well, personally invested in this issue, and honourable members will understand the history and the reasons for the concerns that he's expressed. And I understand why he takes the opportunity to express them today and on other occasions. Now, the government fundamentally agrees with some of the concerns he's expressed, though clearly not with his subsequent analysis. Now, he'll have noted the point that I've made today about the issuing of guidance from the MP.

Say, we published that today, and I hope that he will acknowledge the determination that exists for myself as the Minister and from colleagues right across government to provide assurances and to satisfy the concerns that he has. And one of the ways in which we'll do that is through the Defending Democracy Task Force, which he was a founding member of. I can say to him and to the House that that provides the fulcrum point for us, dealing with many of these matters right across government.

It is something that us has. It had its mandate refreshed by the Prime Minister, and it is a mechanism that we invest a lot in. It will seek to provide us with some of the answers that we need to give him the assurance that Essex I hope that he will understand that I am stood ready to meet with him and the honourable Lady to further discuss any concerns that they might have.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

He may not be satisfied today, but I will do what I can to provide that forward. Jackie.
18:32
18:33
18:33
David Davis Portrait Rt Hon David Davis MP (Goole and Pocklington, Conservative)
-
-
David Davis.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in his own defence. Yeah, in. That case, the Court of Appeal

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That case, the Court of Appeal appropriate. Definition of an enemy state is. Not bound on. What the government says.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

What the government says. It's a state which behaves like an enemy. Exactly that, the judge stated plainly, and I quote him. There is no.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

There is no. an. Enemy should. Not include a. Country which represents a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Country which represents a. security. Of the. United Kingdom. And of, quote. So throughout the duration. Of. This.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Case. There. Been ample evidence, including from the ISC, from the current

**** Possible New Speaker ****

director and MI5 and others, that China. Represents a. Threat to. Our national security.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Our national security. Including at the time where Mr. Berry and Mr. Cash were acting as spies. So the. this. Are.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Are. Frankly, nonsense. And it's time, frankly, that we stopped kowtowing and took a stand against China.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and took a stand against China. Now, if the minister means what he said in terms. Of. Future dealings.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Future dealings. number. Of. People have call. For and refuse.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Refuse to approve. The espionage.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The espionage. at. The Royal Mint? Will you reject it and tell. The Chinese effectively that enough is enough?
18:35
18:36
18:36
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

protection will be for our democratic institutions and indeed for this place? Well, I'm grateful to him, and it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Well, I'm grateful to him, and it is a really important question that is asked because in July, the government published a policy paper government published a policy paper outlining its proposals for an Election and Democracy Bill, which we will introduce as the elections Bill as soon as parliamentary time allows. Our intent is to modernise our democracy so that it is fit for the 21st century, including reinforcing safeguards against foreign influence in our elections. Now in relation to political finance.

And other members want to may want to listen very carefully to this in relation to political finance, tough new rules will require parties to assess companies they are receiving donations from against a series of tests proving their connections to the UK and to Ireland. This will end the status quo, where a new company registered today owned by anyone, funded from anywhere without even a single day of trade, can donate and have influence in UK politics. The introduction of Know Your Donor checks will increase scrutiny of donations, requiring recipients to conduct enhanced checks to decrease the risk of illegitimate donations entering our system, guarding against foreign interference.

It

**** Possible New Speaker ****

will be very interesting to see whether honourable members opposite vote for it or not. Sir Jeremy Hunt.
18:38
18:38
18:38
18:38
18:39
Julian Lewis Portrait Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
-
-
Sir Julian Lewis.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The minister. Says that it's a matter for another. Department to. Decide about the Chinese embassy,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Decide about the Chinese embassy, and that's certainly true about whether they should have a new

**** Possible New Speaker ****

embassy or not. But the proposed new embassy is so. Large that. It. Would be the biggest embassy. Of any.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Country, anywhere. In Europe that. Has. National security implications. And if he.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And if he. Wants to encourage. People to. Believe. That the government isn't.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Cosying up to Communist. China, he should make. Recommendations accordingly. But may I just ask him.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But may I just ask him. About. The extract that he read from. The 1911 act? I will read a slightly fuller.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I will read a slightly fuller. One, though still. With ellipses. It says.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With ellipses. It says. If any person, for purposes. Prejudicial to the. Safety or interests of the state, obtains.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

obtains. Or communicates to any. Other. Person any. Document or information which.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

information which. Might. Be directly or indirectly useful

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Be directly or indirectly useful felony. My reading of. That is. That the felony.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That the felony. Lies in the disclosure. To anyone at all. It doesn't have to be.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To an enemy directly. So whether or not China was. Regarded as. An enemy at the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Time, this nature. Of the sensitive material disclosed itself. Was.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was. A felony, even if it was disclosed to a China. That was not regarded as an enemy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

enemy. So surely the. Trial should have gone ahead?
18:41
18:42
Emily Darlington Portrait Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)
-
-
Amy Darlington. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Minister's clarity. On tackling threats that China. Poses.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Including to the transnational repression of Hong Kongers in the UK. That will be a real reassurance

**** Possible New Speaker ****

UK. That will be a real reassurance to the many Bno nationals who. Live in. Milton Keynes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Milton Keynes. I would like him to go into further detail, particularly in the context of the Parliamentary context of the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee's report on Russia's interference in Brexit and the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Nathan Gill's. The Nathan Gill. Case that's just completed on

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Case that's just completed on eight counts of bribery coming from Russia. Of course. He at the time of taking these

**** Possible New Speaker ****

He at the time of taking these bribes was a colleague of some of our MPs on the other. Side of the House. How will the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

New elections bill stop. The interference from. Political funding. That we are seeing gaining more

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That we are seeing gaining more and more ground here in the UK and have is a real threat to our

**** Possible New Speaker ****

have is a real threat to our democracy. I was the Minister to be brief and on point. Regarding what. This statement. Is actually about.
18:43
18:43
Jeremy Wright Portrait Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)
-
-
All right.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Speaker. The Minister. Has told. Us that his government's assessment of China is a mixture.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

assessment of China is a mixture. Of national security threats. And opportunities for engagement, including economically. But will you accept that is exactly the assessment made by the last government, and that combination government, and that combination with reference to the act we are concerned with, and the offence that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

concerned with, and the offence that we are concerned with, does not require a country only to present a. National security threat.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

National security threat. Simply that it does so, perhaps in combination with other things. But that's the key point. Minister has been very clear about that. So can I ask him this? Can we be clear on what happened with the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

government's evidence? Was it. The case. That the government could find no evidence on the point of China

**** Possible New Speaker ****

evidence on the point of China presenting a national. Security threat? Was it the case. That the government internally.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That the government internally. Decided that the evidence it could find would not meet the CPS requirements? And if so, who.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

requirements? And if so, who. Made that determination? Or was it the case. That the government did. Supply

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That the government did. Supply evidence to the CPS on that specific point, and the CPS decided it wasn't significant enough? And if it's the latter.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

latter. publish. The evidence to the House. Or. If he doesn't think. That's.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Appropriate and it may not be, would he give authority to the Deputy National Security Advisor to
18:45
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Barnsley North, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Deputy National Security Advisor to share that evidence in full with the Intelligence and Security Committee? Yeah, absolutely.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a lot of time for the right hon. Gentleman, not least because he brings an almost unique because he brings an almost unique perspective, both in terms of his understanding of the law and of matters relating to intelligence. I think he correctly made the observation that ultimately, any government strategy with regard to China has to take consideration of national security issues. But at the same time, I think any fair minded, reasonable government has to understand the economic the economic opportunities that exist.

Now. As a former Attorney General, I know that he will not recommend that I get into the business of second guessing judgements and decisions that were taken by the DPP. But in terms of his point about publishing the evidence, hopefully he will have heard the response that I gave a moment ago. I'm responding to the to your right hon. Friend's question in terms of the point, the serious question was actually raised from the backbenches about publishing the evidence. I hope that he will have heard the response I gave a moment ago.

Little Madam. Deputy Speaker, the. Minister states, and I quote, that we will take all necessary. that we will take all necessary. to.
18:46
18:46
18:47
18:48
18:49
18:50
18:50
18:51
18:52
18:52
18:53
18:53
18:54
18:54
18:55
18:56
18:56
18:57
18:57
18:58
18:58
18:59
19:00
19:01
19:01
19:02
19:02
19:03
19:04
19:05
19:05
19:05
19:05
19:06
19:07
19:08
19:09
19:09
19:10
Neil O'Brien Portrait Neil O'Brien MP (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston, Conservative)
-
-
But a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Point of order to. Do. With this very statement. Point of order. Neil O'Brien.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Like you, I am one of the parliamentarians currently. Sanctioned by China and like many

**** Possible New Speaker ****

members of this. House, I am left. Wondering whether it was not. Just. Our officers that were spied on,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Our officers that were spied on, but our families. Our homes and. Our children. And in the absence of a trial, I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And in the absence of a trial, I. Have no way of finding. Out what happened. Now, the minister. Has been asked multiple times publish.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

publish. The minutes of the meetings in which this. Case was discussed. We know from. The DPP. That over.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That over. again. And again. For evidence which was not forthcoming. But without the minutes

**** Possible New Speaker ****

forthcoming. But without the minutes of those meetings, we are not able to find out what was asked for, why. It. Was. Refused. Or who made that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was. Refused. Or who made that decision. Madam speaker, what means. Are available to. This House. So for us to get. Hold of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So for us to get. Hold of the minutes of those meetings. Which the. Government does not want to publish, what parliamentary means can we have so that we can. Get.
19:11
19:12
19:12
Liz Kendall Portrait Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)
-
-
Over their lives, control over the public services.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

their. Data and. Who sees it. And control.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And control. Over the choices they make to. Rent or buy a home, apply. For a job, open a bank account,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and much more. Besides. In the age. Of the smartphone, we can take

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this control quite literally into our own hands. But too. Often it. Feels like. We're.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We're. At the mercy of a system that doesn't work for us as well as it should. One with endless form,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

should. One with endless form, filling and bureaucracy just to. Prove who you. Are, where you might need your

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Are, where you might need your passport to apply for a job, your National Insurance number to pay tax, your driving licence to buy a tax, your driving licence to buy a pint or a glass of wine. If you're

**** Possible New Speaker ****

lucky enough to be asked. And most frustratingly of all. You might. Have to rummage around. In a. Drawer looking for an old

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Drawer looking for an old electricity bill just to open a bank account or join the library, or enrol your children in school. It's enrol your children in school. It's time to fix this, to put power back in people's hands, to get more out in people's hands, to get more out of our public services, and to bring the UK into the modern age. Madam the UK into the modern age. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are three reasons why we want to introduce a new free digital ID available to all UK citizens and legal residents above the age of 16.

First, it's about giving people greater agency over their lives in over 15 years. As a local MP, I think I've lost count of the number of people who've come to me because they have struggled to get the public services they need, or had to battle for support from different parts of the welfare state. I'm sure many honourable members will know this is a frustratingly similar story. They're passed from one person to another, asked to repeat their story and provide basic information time and time again that they're made to fit into a system rather than the system working for them, which ultimately leaves them feeling like they're a number on a list, not a human being with a life.

Bringing in a new digital ID is about far more than replacing numerous bits of paper. Just to prove who you are. It's about changing the way the state interacts with its citizens through. What I like to see is a new digital key that unlocks better, more joined up and effective public services which actually talk to one another and fit around you. In building our new system, we will learn from the experiences of other countries, some of whom have had digital ID for over 20 years.

Many show us just how transformative this can be in Denmark, a graduate applying for jobs only has to log into a portal once, and their ID automatically links to their school records, saving them retyping their qualifications each time. In Finland, a parent can go online to register their children for day-care without uploading a payslip or putting in their salary. The site automatically calculates the right fee and in Estonia, a digital ID means that when you have a baby, you don't have to go to a local office to register the birth or sign up for childcare benefits, or apply for nursery places.

It happens automatically from day one in the hospital, so parents are free to focus on what matters most. Digital ID has the potential to empower millions of people like this right here in the UK with quick, effective, seamless and secure integration between different government systems. We know that the Telus wants service makes the process of registering a death more straightforward, but we shouldn't have to wait till the end of someone's life to offer them joined up personalised support. So our new system will help modernise government services to fit around people's lives, rather rather than forcing them to fit into the system.

The second reason for introducing digital ID is to offer greater security and actually greater control over your own data. Other countries have introduced digital ID, find that digitally check credentials are far more secure than physical documents. They are much less likely to be lost or stolen. They've reduced errors and mistakes, and they've helped crack down on fraudsters who can ruin people's lives. Privacy and security will be hardwired into the system from the start. There will be no pooling of people's private information into a single central data set.

It will be a federated data system, and user control will be at the heart of our plans. With a digital ID, you could end up having more choice over what you show the show the world, not less. So if you're buying a drink at the bar, instead of showing a physical driving licence revealing your full name and address, you'll be able to prove that you're over 18 without even showing your exact birthday. If you don't want to, we will ensure our digital ID operates to international best practice standards for data security and privacy, and we're working closely with the National Cyber Security Centre to ensure it keeps pace with the changing threats we face.

The third and final reason for introducing digital ID is to deliver greater fairness by showing exactly who has the right to work here in the UK. Madam Deputy Speaker, Digital ID is not a silver bullet to tackling illegal immigration, but it will be as a deterrent to would be migrants who are considering coming to the UK. Alongside all the other action we're taking, and making ID checks both mandatory and digital for all employers will provide us with far more actionable intelligence so we can move swiftly to identify rogue employers who aren't following the rules.

Under this government, illegal working arrests have gone up 50% in the last year. That is progress. But our digital ID will help us to do more. It will be mandatory for right to work checks by the end of this Parliament, helping tackle illegal working, cracking down on rogue employers, creating a level playing field for those employers who actually do the right thing, and giving people who do have the right to be here the cast iron guarantee that this is your country and you are welcome in the UK.

In order for our new ID to be both effective and fair, it must be genuinely inclusive. That is non-negotiable for the government and for me personally. Currently, around 1 in 10 UK adults don't have a passport or a driver's licence to prove their identity, and around 1.5 million people don't have a smartphone, laptop or tablet or a digitally excluded for another reason. We're already making progress with our digital Inclusion action plan will continue to work closely with all the relevant organisations to understand the barriers to inclusion, how they can be overcome.

So we bring everyone into the system. I want to hear directly from honourable members across the House about these matters, and from those in the digital identity sector. You've got so much experience to learn from. We'll consider physical alternatives to the virtual document and face to face support for those who need it, like the 5% of UK households who don't have home internet access. But ultimately, we want Britain to be a country where everybody has digital skills and access to be part of the modern world, including through an new digital ID to unlock more effective services and support.

In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, we will launch a full consultation on our plans by the end of this year, including with parliamentarians, the devolved administrations and members of the public. Legislation informed by this process will follow shortly afterwards. I know there are many questions honourable members will have, and I really look forward to taking them. But let me just say this 92% of people over 16 already have a smartphone. Many of us already use digital credentials held in our phone wallets, from tickets to events and online banking to store and boarding passes.

People should expect the same service from the government. Indeed, we should be criticised if we weren't modernising our services to make them more easy, easier and more convenient for the public. Years from now. When we look back, I believe having your ID on your phone will feel like second nature. Putting more power directly into people's hands, giving them more control over how they interact with government and a whole range of services. That is something worth striving for. And I commend this statement to the House.

I call the Shadow.
19:21
Julia Lopez Portrait Julia Lopez MP (Hornchurch and Upminster, Conservative)
-
-
Secretary. Now, nearly three weeks ago, the Prime Minister unveiled a plan for mandatory digital identity that will fundamentally shift the balance of power between citizen and state. And he didn't announce it here in this House. But I loving of the. Progressive left, sponsored by Labour together and haunted by the ghosts of Tony Blair. The justification was his own catastrophic failure on migration. He knows it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Won't stop the. Boats. And when Brits are forced to have ID as illegal migration. Continues unabated.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Continues unabated. It will. Simply confirm fears of. A two tier society fuelling the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A two tier society fuelling the division and conspiracy theories. That he so. Arrogantly claims that he is. The antidote to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The antidote to. What a cynical mess can the Secretary of State set out how. This. Scheme will. Identify illegal migrants.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Working in the black economy, at. Avoiding any. State interaction? She's rather

**** Possible New Speaker ****

State interaction? She's rather slinked away from these key points. And in her wonderfully innocuous statement about. Making it easier to join

**** Possible New Speaker ****

libraries, we. release. This glorious. Piece of doublethink. It will not be compulsory.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It will not be compulsory. To obtain a digital identity. But. It. Will. Be mandatory. employment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

employment. Itself. Requires government issued. Identity. You cannot meaningfully consent.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Madam Deputy Speaker, unless. Of course, you never want to work. And here is the fundamental. Issue. In a free society. The burden.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The burden. Of proof has. Always rested with government. To justify its actions, to earn our trust.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

trust. But mandatory digital identity. Reverses that. And while today the scheme focuses on. Work.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Work. Checks, Labour. Says it wants to. Extend this type of mandate into more areas.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of our lives. So can the minister tell us. Which areas and where does it stop? Because I understand even 13

**** Possible New Speaker ****

stop? Because I understand even 13 year olds are now being considered. What about those without digital gigabit. Rollout.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Rollout. And published a very worthy digital inclusion. Action. Plan. Without any action. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Plan. Without any action. The Prime Minister points to Estonia and India as models that we should seek India as models that we should seek to replicate, despite serious cyber vulnerabilities. The UK's own signal system was breached during Red team system was breached during Red team testing this very March, when 2.8 million people petitioned against the plan. The government assured them it would adhere to the highest security standards. So can she

**** Possible New Speaker ****

security standards. So can she confirm to us here today that the will. Be built. Already meets those standards,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Already meets those standards, and that the NCC will. Publicly back her up? This crafty scheme was not in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This crafty scheme was not in Labour's manifesto. Even the Cabinet thinks this whole thing is a fantasy. The Secretary of State

**** Possible New Speaker ****

fantasy. The Secretary of State cannot even bring herself to tweet about it. Why does the Prime Minister keep handing. Her.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Her. His steaming message to scoop up the migration argument? Having totally bombed the migration totally bombed the migration argument is totally bombed. And you heard it here today. She and the Prime Minister are now reframing

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this whole thing as the. Route. To better online services. No more rifling around utility bills. Her whole statement today. Not an idea you hear today. Not an ID, a key, but they are deliberately conflating two very different things. Better, more convenient. Online services were already coming Online services were already coming in. We already had right to work and rent checks, convenient DBS checks, driving licence renewals all designed with choice, consent and privacy in mind. Paper options retained. Nobody forced down the retained.

Nobody forced down the digital route and trust as the key private identity providers enabled. This is not about Luddites versus modernisers. This is about the fact that Labour cannot resist its big, that Labour cannot resist its big, fat socialist dreams. Centralised databases, state mandates and big databases, state mandates and big money. The exclusion of private sector expertise. Why create this honeypot for hackers? How much is honeypot for hackers? How much is this going to cost? And why should we trust Labour to be the verifier of someone's identity? When, during of someone's identity? When, during the Data Act's passage, they would not even commit to recording someone's sex accurately? Let me be clear conservatives oppose mandatory digital identity in principle.

In digital identity in principle. In practice, if we believed it was necessary, we'd have introduced it in government. But we chose not to because you can deliver better online services without resorting to a costly, controlling, complex and risky system. This is a cynical distraction from a desperate Prime Minister. He wants people to believe mandatory ID will fix his migration mess, but it will not. Channel crossings will continue until he introduces a real deterrent, but he hasn't got the guts to take on the law in lawfare industry that made him.

We believe that government should empower citizens, not the other way around, that government should earn citizens trust, not the other way round. Only those entitled to benefit should receive them. Those with no right to be here must leave. But these imperatives are not best delivered by controlling British people instead of those who don't play by the rules. The government that promise to tread lightly on our lives has got his boots out. Will the Secretary of State now kill this plan rather than be the sacrificial lamb for another of this Prime Minister's grubby mistakes? mistakes?
19:27
Liz Kendall Portrait Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)
-
-
OK, state. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker. That that is definitely the first time I've been called a big, fat socialist.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is. The Honourable lady asks how this will help crack down on illegal will help crack down on illegal immigration by making these. Making the digital ID mandatory and digital the digital ID mandatory and digital will really help us get more actionable intelligence about rogue actionable intelligence about rogue employers and who are doing the checks that they are required to do, and who aren't much more swiftly and automatically. Secondly, the Honourable lady talks about those who are digitally excluded.

As I said in my statement, I take that said in my statement, I take that issue extremely seriously, and we actually have a digital inclusion action plan. They didn't do one for action plan. They didn't do one for ten years if they cared so much, much about it, perhaps they would much about it, perhaps they would have done. She understandably and rightly, and I'm sure we'll have lots of questions about having the lots of questions about having the highest possible standards here. And we will be working to international best practice standards.

One of the best practice standards. One of the things I would say is at there are not many advantages about lagging behind so many other countries, so behind so many other countries, so many other countries that have digital ID, but one of them is we can learn from their experience when things have gone wrong, how they've improved their security, and that's what we intend to do. But I just want to finish by saying this, Madam Deputy Speaker, the lady that comes to the honourable lady comes to the despatch box with that fire and brimstone.

But I think it's quite interesting about how what she says is different from the shadow Home Secretary, who back in February backed the idea, saying there were very significant benefits in August. He said they should consider it. Their leader in June actually said she'd actually moved her position on digital ID, and if it could answer a difficult problem, then yes, that's something they would look at. You'd think it was still summer. The amount of flip flops we're seeing on the other side of the chamber, they're not serious, they're not credible.

And until they are, they're not electable.
19:29
19:30
19:30
Victoria Collins Portrait Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Liberal Democrat.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Spokesperson, Victoria Collins. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I. Thank Secretary of State for advance sight of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

advance sight of. This statement. But quite frankly, I'm disappointed that this is how we start the conversation on digital ID. In Parliament.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In Parliament. We Liberal Democrats believe that freedoms. Belong to citizens. By right. And yet the government. Government's plans.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Government's plans. For digital ID for. Every single working person. Risk eroding the hard won freedom to eroding the hard won freedom to control the way we live our lives. They risk excluding millions of vulnerable people from their own society.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

society. And they risk wasting billions in solutions. That will. Not work. It is yet.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is yet. Again a gimmick to. Tackle irregular. Migration. Something I'd hoped was reserved for the conservatives. Yet again by.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yet again by. Eroding public. Trust. With these. Rushed, retrofitted. Policies, the government have squandered an opportunity.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

squandered an opportunity. To use technology. To improve. Public service by bringing. People with them. And all of this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

People with them. And all of this was announced weeks. Before it could be scrutinised by Parliament for a scheme that will. Impact. Every single working person in the UK.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the UK. Any claims from this. Government that this is non. Compulsory and give agency are

**** Possible New Speaker ****

poppycock. In reality, as a. work. It is mandatory ID in all but name and. Even.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Even. The Secretary. Of. State said. It just now. Where is the choice. In that? Last week, the Foreign Secretary proposed issuing digital IDs. For teenagers. This is clear government mission creep and it's dangerous. Liberals have. Always stood up

**** Possible New Speaker ****

against the concentrations of power, and for good reason. We've seen the. Government's abject failure. To secure people's.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To secure people's. Data before. Ask the victims of. Legal aid agency data breach. Were armed forces. Personnel who. Are victims of the Mod data

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Are victims of the Mod data breach, whether they have faith in the government to keep their most personal data secure. So I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So I. Ask the government, how can the public have trust in them to manage of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Almost the entire population? And for the 8.5. Million people. Without foundational digital skills, like. My constituent Julie, who. Doesn't own a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Doesn't own a. Smartphone and is fearful of being excluded from. Employment, from healthcare and. From other essential.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Services, can the Minister commit to publishing an impact assessment and come forward with a plan to reduce the risk of further

**** Possible New Speaker ****

reduce the risk of further marginalisation? All of these. Serious. Concerns, from. Privacy to exclusion, come at a. Staggering cost.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

cost. This scheme will cost the taxpayer. Billions money. That we. Wasted on a. System. Doing.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Doing. government's. enforcement. Meanwhile, our public. Services are crumbling. So finally, I ask.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So finally, I ask. The minister how much taxpayer. Money is the government. Prepared to waste on this scheme

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Prepared to waste on this scheme for. Which they have no mandate and no. Public support. Before they admit it does not
19:33
19:34
19:35
19:36
19:36
19:37
19:38
19:38
19:38
19:38
19:39
19:40
19:40
19:41
19:41
19:41
19:42
19:42
19:43
19:43
19:44
19:45
19:45
19:46
19:46
19:47
19:47
19:48
19:49
19:49
19:50
19:50
19:51
19:52
19:52
19:53
19:54
19:55
19:55
19:56
19:56
19:57
19:57
19:58
19:58
19:58
19:58
19:59
19:59
20:00
20:00
20:01
20:01
20:02
20:03
20:03
20:04
20:05
20:05
20:06
20:06
20:06
20:07
20:07
20:08
20:08
20:08
20:09
20:09
20:10
20:11
20:11
20:11
20:12
20:12
20:13
20:14
20:14
20:15
20:15
20:15
20:15
20:16
20:16
20:17
20:18
20:18
20:19
Patricia Ferguson Portrait Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call. yeah. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I am very grateful to the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

grateful to the. Backbench Business Committee for affording me. The opportunity to make a statement on the publication of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

statement on the publication of the Scottish Affairs Committee's third report of this session. On the pilot Safer Drug

**** Possible New Speaker ****

On the pilot Safer Drug Consumption Facility in Glasgow's East End. Despite a. Reduction in deaths

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this year, Scotland continues to. Face the highest rate. Of drug related deaths in Europe.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of drug related deaths in Europe. Without a doubt, this is the most pressing public health issue facing. Scotland. And it is in this context that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And it is in this context that the committee agreed to. Undertake a thorough examination. Of the pilot. Facility on Hunter Street, called

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Facility on Hunter Street, called the Thistle. The committee's inquiry follows up on excellent work conducted by a predecessor Committee on. Problem Drug Use in Scotland, and I would like to take this and I would like to take this opportunity to express our thanks to everyone who. Contributed to this inquiry, in particular to Doctor inquiry, in particular to Doctor Sackett, Odyssey and the team at the Thistle for their continued engagement with our work. This is a challenging issue, and I would also like to express my gratitude to the members of the Scottish Affairs members of the Scottish Affairs Committee for their thoughtful and collaborative work on this report.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

collaborative work on this report. In 2020, for. 1017. People died. From drug.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Related causes, a figure that's expected to rise in 2025, with the highest concentration of deaths

**** Possible New Speaker ****

highest concentration of deaths occurring. In the Glasgow City area. Now, the problem is not new. High levels.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

High levels. concern. In the. City for. Over a decade. Other harms, such.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As the transmission of. Bloodborne viruses.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bloodborne viruses. Also remain prevalent. Between 2014 and 2020. who.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

who. Inject drugs saw 188 new. Diagnoses reported in the Greater. Glasgow area.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Glasgow area. So to address these. Social. Care Partnership, NHS Greater.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Care Partnership, NHS Greater. Glasgow and Clyde and. Other partners launched the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thistle, the UK's first. Sanctioned Safer Drug Consumption Facility. The Thistle has been opened. As a three.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As a three. Year pilot at the Thistle, visitors can self-administer drugs in safe.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in safe. Hygienic conditions under. Medical supervision. Staff are able to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to. Reverse overdoses, treat wounds. And provide. Hygienic injecting equipment. Of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hygienic injecting equipment. Of equal importance to this. Immediate medical. Harm. Reduction is the space the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Harm. Reduction is the space the facility provides for expert clinicians to build trusting relationships with people who would

**** Possible New Speaker ****

relationships with people who would otherwise be hard for support services to reach these relationships can. Be a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Pathway to engagement with other health and. Social services such as drug treatment, counselling. And housing services.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Which can. Of course help address the drivers of problem drug use. When we drivers of problem drug use. When we visited the facility for ourselves shortly after it opened, we were particularly impressed by the expertise and dedication of the staff we met. The opening of the staff we met. The opening of the Thistle marks a radical change in approach to drug use in the UK, but

**** Possible New Speaker ****

internationally, safer drug consumption facilities are not already. Operate.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Operate. In 60 cities across the world. None of these facilities. Have ever. Reported an overdose.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Reported an overdose. Death on the premises. As part of our inquiry. We visited.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We visited. Norway and Lisbon. We saw how safer drug consumption facilities have been a core part of Portugal strategy to reduce drug harms. We looked carefully at what Portugal looked carefully at what Portugal has done, given that they have achieved a radical reduction in drug

**** Possible New Speaker ****

achieved a radical reduction in drug harms, achieving an 80% reduction in the number of. Drug related deaths over.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Drug related deaths over. The last 20 years. And we also travelled to Oslo and Bergen, where we saw for ourselves how facilities we saw for ourselves how facilities can be successfully integrated into local communities. Above all else. Our report calls on the UK government to adopt an evidence based approach and. Not to make up

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Before. The trial. Has concluded. To that end, a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Has concluded. To that end, a report are also argues that experts and evidence, rather. Than preconceived ideas.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Than preconceived ideas. Should determine the facility's future. There is no statutory basis for a safer drug consumption for a safer drug consumption facility to open or operate in the UK. Instead, the Thistle has been UK. Instead, the Thistle has been able to open because of prosecutorial discretion applied by Scotland's Lord advocate. The Lord

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Scotland's Lord advocate. The Lord advocate has decided that it would not. Be in the public interest. To prosecute users of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To prosecute users of the facility for possession offences once the Lord advocates dispensation has been crucial to enabling the. has been crucial to enabling the. Thistle to open. Our committee found that prosecutorial discretion is not that prosecutorial discretion is not a substitute for a considered legal framework. Our report also considers framework. Our report also considers the cost of the Thistle. The Scottish Government has committed up

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Scottish Government has committed up to £2.3 million per year to fund. The. Facility for the duration of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Facility for the duration of the three year pilot. There was evidence to our inquiry like that. Facilities like the Thistle. Can be value for like the Thistle. Can be value for money by generating savings elsewhere. Such facilities reduce costs associated with public injecting, hospital admissions, ambulance callouts and treating blood. Borne viruses. For example, preventing just 6 to 8 cases of HIV annually could potentially generate savings equivalent to the annual cost of the thistle. Whilst it is right that the cost of the thistle is properly considered, the context of Scotland's drug crisis cannot be forgotten.

With over a thousand deaths in 2024 alone. The committee argues that the scale of Scotland's emergency necessitates.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A commensurate response and significant. Investment. While the Thistle has

**** Possible New Speaker ****

not diverted funding from other services. We did. Hear concerns. During an inquiry.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

About the need to strike the right balance between investing in services like the. Thistle and investing in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

traditional recovery services. We know that safer drug consumption facilities are not the only tool available. To.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Address problem. Drug use, and we are clear in our report that this facility is report that this facility is complementary to and works in tandem with traditional recovery services. In other words, it's not an either In other words, it's not an either or. Our report also recognises that drug trends in Scotland are changing. Currently, the facility only offers supervision for the only offers supervision for the injection of drugs. However, inhalation is becoming more prevalent and can be a safer method prevalent and can be a safer method of consumption.

Consumption and the thistle must be able to adapt to meet the needs of the population it meet the needs of the population it is trying to help, and inhalation space is currently not possible due to both reserved and devolved legislation, and our report encourages the Lord advocate and the Scottish Government to consider any future application for an inhalation room on its merits. The Thistle opened in Glasgow's East End, an area with long standing issues around public injecting. Since its opening, we've heard concerns about its impact, particularly regarding drug related litter.

We know that community support is of paramount importance to the pilot success. That is why consultation work was undertaken about the opening of the Thistle and continues through the Community Engagement Forum. And when members of our committee attended a Community Engagement Forum meeting in August, they were able to see that consultation work in action. But we encourage the Thistle to go one step further and develop a more responsive communication strategy to maintain dialogue between meetings. As I said, an independent evaluation is underway to assess the facility's impact on people who inject drugs, on local residents, on businesses and in public services.

This includes examining the services effectiveness, its reach, costs and potential long term savings. Community concerns must be taken seriously, but it's also important to allow time for the pilots local impact to be properly understood, and we await the results of that evaluation to provide an objective assessment of its impact. If the Lord advocate continues to apply her discretion beyond the three year pilot, the Thistle, and any other potential future facilities in Scotland could continue to operate without UK government support indefinitely.

Perhaps, however, the committee has found that the current legal position of the pilot is fundamentally precarious in nature, and this arrangement is undesirable in the longer term. We therefore conclude that at the independent evaluation deems the pilot a success and the thistle is to be made permanent. The UK government should ensure that there is a full legal framework for safer drug consumption facilities in Scotland. Now I am grateful to the member for Kingston upon Hull North, who was then the responsible Home Office Minister, for giving oral evidence to our inquiry.

The Minister told us that UK, the UK government, will not introduce safer drug consumption facilities and pointed instead to alternative ongoing interventions to address drug related harms. And while these approaches are needed, the evidence we have heard is clear that the sustained scale of Scotland's drug death crisis demands further action. I will conclude by echoing the sentiment in the report, that any intervention that is found to be effective at saving lives and reducing harm deserves serious consideration by the government. The committee looks forward to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

government's response, which I hope will reflect that serious consideration of our recommendations. Hear, hear.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hear, hear. Who are new to this? Questions from backbenchers will take up to ten minutes in total for this and
20:29
20:30
Patricia Ferguson Portrait Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
-
-
the pilot should be extended before we know the actual result of the pilot as it stands. Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair, and I thank my the honourable member for. Well, I hope she doesn't mind me calling it an honourable friend, but she knows what I mean for her question. And I think it's fair to say that the issues we were looking at challenged us all. We were many of us were looking at issues that we had never reflected upon before. So it was a challenge.

And I perfectly understand that we will have disagreements about how we go forward. I think the thing that was highlighted to us about inhalation is that for many people, inhalation is safer than injecting. Injecting guns with has all sorts of risks attached. For example, the problem of infected wounds and the problem of blood borne viruses. Inhalation does not have that problem. And inhalation is a methodology of using drugs that is becoming increasingly popular. So it seemed to the committee that that was something that we could encourage looking at.

I don't think we are suggesting that there should be further inhalation for other injecting spaces at this time. We want to see what the evaluation says. We think that's what's important, and we think any decisions about those should be based on that particular finding. But we are aware that other places in Scotland are looking at the thistle with interest and may well make those applications. But it's not the gist of the report that we have. It's McAllister.
20:31
20:32
20:32
20:33
20:33
20:34
20:35
20:36
Patricia Ferguson Portrait Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
-
-
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the honourable member for his question. There are many reports done on international facilities, which I would suggest he might want to bring to the attention of his colleagues in Belfast, because he's absolutely right that it's not just Glasgow, it's not just Scotland that has these problems, albeit Scotland seems to be suffering particularly badly from it. There are other models we saw in Lisbon, a mobile model that accompanied the fixed facility, which seemed to be something that was very popular.

There was a queue of people waiting to use it when we were there. Small queue about a queue, so there are other ways of doing it, and he may wish to consider those Kirsteen Sullivan. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And as a member of Scottish Affairs as a member of Scottish Affairs Committee, I thank my Honourable friend for securing time for the statement. Now, the report makes clear that drug consumption rooms clear that drug consumption rooms are just one of the tools that can are just one of the tools that can be used to reduce drug related harms, and that one intervention harms, and that one intervention must not come at the cost of another.

With Scotland's sustaining the highest number of drug related the highest number of drug related deaths in Europe. Does she agree with me that the lack of recovery beds and facilities that many people beds and facilities that many people seek undermines any holistic, joined up approach that those living with addiction deserve?
20:37
20:38
20:38
20:39
20:39
Patricia Ferguson Portrait Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
-
-
engagement with clinicians, because it is so important that people are getting the right support in the right way when they enter such a right way when they enter such a centre that. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my Honourable friend for that question. I think friend for that question. I think it's important to understand that while there is prosecutorial discretion offered by the Lord advocate, the Thistle is actually quite limited in what it can offer. quite limited in what it can offer.

So at the moment, it would like to be able to offer tours in a case, for example, to allow people to more easily inject. It would also, and has applied to become a drug testing centre so that we know there's an increasing instance in Scotland of synthetic opioids coming on the synthetic opioids coming on the market, which can be very, very dangerous. Testing would allow the police and academics to track that police and academics to track that and to be able to take them off the streets more easily.

So things like that can be done, but they need permissions to do them. And at the moment they don't have those permissions. It is simply an injecting centre. That's not to say they're not able to get on to other facilities, where perhaps recovery is more of an option. Housing services are an option, and there is also just a space where people can go along, have a really good wash, get some clean clothes and go out feeling better, but there to talk and no one leaves the premises immediately after injecting.

People will sit around and they'll be having conversations with one another and with the professionals
20:41
20:41
Helen Hayes Portrait Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)
-
-
these should be brief questions and directed to the Chair, not the front bench? Helen Hayes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As Chair of the Deputy Speaker. As Chair of the Education Select Committee, I am pleased to present our fifth report of this Parliament solving the of this Parliament solving the Senate crisis to the House. And I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for this statement. This inquiry was our first major undertaking in this Parliament, and we chose it because Parliament, and we chose it because the crisis in special educational needs and disabilities provision send is not just a challenge.

It is send is not just a challenge. It is a moral imperative. Our report focuses on practical steps that can focuses on practical steps that can deliver an education system where every child, regardless of their needs, is given the opportunity to needs, is given the opportunity to flourish. This crisis touches every corner of our education system from corner of our education system from early years to post 16. It affects 1.7 million children and young people, their families, their people, their families, their teachers and a wide range of other professionals.

For too long, children and young people have been let down by a system that is fragmented, not fit for purpose and as a consequence is too often adversarial. Our report sets out a roadmap for change, a vision for an inclusive, equitable and sustainable sound system grounded in the voices and experiences of the children and families it serves. Over eight months, we conducted a rigorous inquiry and I want to put on record my thanks to everyone who took part. We received over 890 written submissions and held seven oral evidence sessions.

We heard from children and young people with sound whose courage and clarity moved us profoundly. We heard from parents exhausted by battles for basic rights, from teachers stretched beyond capacity, and from professionals yearning to deliver but constrained by broken systems. We visited schools in Norfolk and learnt from the inclusive model in Ontario, Canada, where children's needs, not processes, drive, support and send provision is everyone's responsibility. The evidence is stark the number of children identified with Send has risen by 400,000 in a decade to 1.7 million.

Nearly half a million children have an education, health and care plan, and 1.2 million rely on certain support. Behind these numbers lie stories of frustration, exclusion and unrealised potential. Parents told us of sleepless nights navigating a maze of bureaucracy and the impact on the whole family of having to fight constantly just for their child to be able to access education. Teachers spoke of the deep frustration they experience when they are unable to meet every child's needs. Local authorities describe the invidious situation they face, holding a statutory responsibility for delivering for every child, but without the powers to do so, and with a funding crisis which is driving them to the edge of bankruptcy, this is not what inclusion looks like.

This is the system at breaking point. Our report identifies a series of critical failures and offers practical, evidence based solutions. First, inclusive education remains an aspiration, not a reality. A decade after the 2014 reforms, there is still no shared definition of what inclusion means. Without clarity, schools, local authorities and families are left adrift, with no consistent standard to aim for and no clear accountability for delivering it. We call on the Department for education to publish a clear definition of inclusive education within three months, underpinned by national standards for support and ordinarily available provision backed by statutory duties and proper funding.

Second, trust has collapsed. Parents and carers feel sidelined, blamed or forced into costly legal battles to secure their child's rights. Last year, 95% of tribunal appeals were upheld, a damning manifestation of systemic failure. We must rebuild trust through genuine partnership. This means treating parents and carers as equal partners in their child's education, ensuring access to independent advocacy and making transparency the cornerstone of every process. Third, whilst there are many committed, highly skilled professionals who work hard every day to deliver for children, there are some fundamental ways in which our workforce is not equipped to deliver.

Teachers and support staff are dedicated but overstretched, lacking the training and resources to meet rising needs. Sen codes are in short supply and too often regarded as the sole person with responsibility for setting support in a school, educational psychologists are mired in assessments, preventing them from directly delivering interventions and sharing their expertise with other professionals. We propose a cross-party workforce strategy, jointly led by the Department for education and the Department for Health and Social Care, to invest in training, secure the recruitment of specialists and free professionals to focus on front line.

Support for funding is broken. The notional £6,000 threshold for centre support, unchanged since its introduction in 2014, is woefully inadequate. High needs deficits are spiralling and the statutory override is a temporary plaster on a deepening wound. We urge the government to commission a full cost benefit analysis of inclusive education and ensure that there is sufficient funding in the high needs block to deliver early intervention, which can transform lives and reduce long term costs. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, accountability is failing and there is a structural misalignment of statutory responsibilities and powers.

We have heard time and again that health and social care partners are too often absent from the centre table, and they cannot be held to account for this. In education, accountability is unevenly distributed, leading to an understandable overreliance on the statutory part of the system. The education, health and care plan, because it is accountable. And we heard that local authorities do not have the powers or the funding to deliver the school places that are needed, and this is contributing to their financial pressures as they are forced to purchase expensive independent school places in order to meet their statutory responsibilities.

We recommend statutory duties for health and social care and enforceable, send tribunal powers for health provision and essentially within the NHS to drive accountability, a statutory framework for some support and ordinarily available provision and better alignment between local authorities responsibilities and their ability to deliver the school places that are needed to meet them. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have seen what is possible at Aylsham High School in Norfolk. We witnessed a resource base seamlessly integrated into mainstream education, where every child's needs are met with flexibility and care.

In Ontario, we saw a system where support is based on need, not diagnosis, and where parents are partners, not adversaries. These are not distant dreams. They are models that could be emulated across our country. Let me be absolutely clear. The statutory entitlement to an education, health and care plan should remain unchanged. That is a commitment the government must honour. During our inquiry, it became crystal clear to us that if we build a truly inclusive and properly resourced mainstream education system, we can ease the pressure and the struggle that so many families face in securing any HCP, because in settings that have a whole school approach to inclusivity, the needs of more children are met without having to go through that process.

Inclusive education is not just a right, it is a necessity. It benefits every child, strengthens our schools and builds stronger communities. It is also cost effective, reducing the long term burden on public services by investing in children's potential early. Madam Deputy Speaker, this report is not a catalogue of despair. It is a call to action, and 95 recommendations offer a blueprint for reform rooted in the lived experiences of children, families and professionals. We cannot afford another decade of delay.

So I urge the government to act with urgency and ambition to work across departments, to listen to those at the heart of this system, to rebuild trust and to place inclusion at the core of our education system. Every child deserves the chance to thrive. Every family deserves to be heard. Every education setting deserves the tools to succeed. Let us build a system that delivers not just for today, but for generations to come. Let us make inclusion a reality.

I commend this report to the House. In its usual Select Committee statements. For me to only run them for 20 minutes, members will see that there are many of you standing, so some will be disappointed unless everybody keeps their question short and the chair's answers are also short.
20:50
20:51
20:52
20:52
20:53
20:54
20:55
20:56
20:56
20:57
20:58
20:58
20:58
20:59
None Portrait
-

the highest levels of need and inclusive approach to education can work for everyone. Claire Young. work for everyone. Claire Young. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. One of the key findings of the report is that needs to be a clear definition that needs to be a clear definition of what an inclusive education means, and I wonder if the Chair of a Select Committee would agree that inflexible, draconian disciplinary systems at secondary level, applied without consideration of reasonable adjustments, is one of the things that contributes to a hostile environment for children who send, and that perhaps the Select Committee could consider that, and Committee could consider that, and whether it might improve education for all children.

And I thank the honourable member for her question, honourable member for her question, and this is why we are concerned that there should be a definition of inclusive education, which should inclusive education, which should apply across a number of different dimensions of the system, so we can think about buildings and the extent think about buildings and the extent to which buildings are inclusive, welcoming environments. We can think welcoming environments. We can think about the curriculum and the flexibilities that it affords to deliver for children.

We think about the expertise within the system and other aspects of education as well. And she is right to say that policy approaches that schools take do have a bearing on whether that school is accessible to the widest possible range of pupils. That's why it's range of pupils. That's why it's important for the government to set out a definition so that everybody is clear on the basis from which Robertson. Robertson.
21:01
21:01
21:02
Andy MacNae Portrait Andy MacNae MP (Rossendale and Darwen, Labour)
-
-
Madam Deputy. this debate today in the middle of. National Baby Loss Awareness Week

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and in advance of the national international wave of. Lights on Wednesday. And I really want to start by

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I really want to start by welcoming the bereaved families that joined us in the gallery today, but particularly with the late hour, you've shown fantastic stamina, sitting through some fascinating sitting through some fascinating debates and also, I know as many watching online as well.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

watching online as well. emotive. Debate for many of us, and it will bring. Back many memories. I'm grateful for your courage.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for your courage. lifts. This whole.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This whole. Debate and this whole day. I know that for many of you, your story is one of being let down by the system. one of being let down by the system. Once the day cannot undo that. I do hope this national spotlight on what you've experienced and our shared commitment to fundamental change will be of some comfort. And I do want to thank everyone in the want to thank everyone in the chamber today for your attendance and the cross-party support that and the cross-party support that this debate has received.

Madam speaker, this is a personal topic for me and my family. Our daughter

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mallory was born in 2015 with Edward's syndrome, a condition we were told. It's not compatible with life.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It's not compatible with life. And you actually for five days and died in. My arms. Those days were both the hardest of our lives and the time that we value most. We spent those days in the Butterfly Suite, a bereavement suite funded by a local baby loss charity charity, Friends of Serenity. And throughout that time we did receive amazing support from the maternity team at Burnley Hospital. So I'd like to take the opportunity to thank once again all the team at Burnley and recognise the amazing work that baby loss charities do throughout the UK.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, and the years since Mallory's death have been challenging the impacts of losing a. Child to not end after.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Child to not end after. A week or a month or a year. They stay with us. My wife Vanessa herself. Depression and PTSD following Mallory's death and it's following Mallory's death and it's never been able to fully recover and return to a work as a health visitor return to a work as a health visitor for ten years now, she has consistent difficulties accessing sustained, specialist mental health support in stepping back and short support in stepping back and short term interventions and generalists.

She has now had her NHS career terminated on grounds of ill health, terminated on grounds of ill health, and is back on a five month waiting list for therapy. And yet we do count ourselves among the lucky count ourselves among the lucky ones. We had as good a hospital experience as we could have done in the circumstances and time to prepare for what we knew was an inevitable outcome. We did not leave feeling that more could have been feeling that more could have been done or let down.

We felt listened to and supported in the weeks that followed. But sadly, as we will hear followed. But sadly, as we will hear today, far, far too many families have had the very opposite of this experience. We will have heartfelt, heartbreaking accounts of babies who should not have died of families concerns, being belittled and ignored, a practice of full well below any acceptable standard of below any acceptable standard of institutional cultures of denial and cover up. And I believe that as we reached the end of this debate today, no one will be in any doubt that addressing the long term systemic failings in maternity care

**** Possible New Speaker ****

once and for all must be an imperative for this government. Yeah. So let me start by detailing the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So let me start by detailing the extent of this challenge. Tragically, every day 13 babies die shortly before, during or soon after birth. Every day, 13 mothers know the immense grief of losing a child they are expecting to welcome into their lives. In 2023, there were 4478 deaths, baby deaths in total, 4478 deaths, baby deaths in total, 1933 of these were neonatal deaths, 1933 of these were neonatal deaths, while 2545 were stillbirths were the cause of one third of those stillborn stillbirths still unknown.

stillborn stillbirths still unknown. More broadly, pregnancy affects one in 80 or 240 infants die every year in 80 or 240 infants die every year from sudden unexplained death syndrome, and evidence suggests that 1 in 6 pregnancies in the UK and in 1 in 6 pregnancies in the UK and in miscarriage. Crucially, these family tragedies are not shared equally through society, ethnic minorities through society, ethnic minorities and those living in deprivation are far more likely to experience this loss. This has been known for 70 loss.

This has been known for 70 years, and yet little action has been taken to address it. Even in been taken to address it. Even in 2023, black babies were over twice as likely to be stillborn as compared to white babies, whilst neonatal mortality rates amongst neonatal mortality rates amongst black and Asian babies were only one and a half times higher than the rate amongst white babies. Similarly, babies born to mothers living in the most deprived areas are twice as likely to die shortly after birth, compared with those in the least deprived areas.

This profound inequality must be rooted out. And these deaths occur amongst a pattern of poor cultural practice, and too many of our maternity wards and trusts. In 20 2224 review, the Care Quality Commission found that only 35% in maternity units rest as good for safety. No units were found to be outstanding and 65% were rated inadequate or requires improvement. Behind these figures lie a litany of family tragedy, and in response has been no shortage of inquiries. Over the last ten years we have seen reviews for investigations into care in East Kent, Morecambe Bay, Shrewsbury, Telford as well as the ongoing review in Nottingham.

These were revealed much and made many, many recommendations. And yet change has not come and a cycle of failure has continued into this context that the government has rightly decided to launch a national investigation, a systematic and urgent national review of maternity services. This is now an opportunity we must grasp. We have a Secretary of State who I believe truly understands the urgency and importance of making this count. We have the investigation be led by Chair of the highest reputation. We have a commitment to a task force to deliver on recommendations.

And we have many, many colleagues in this place who are determined to make sure that the voices of families are heard and acted upon. We must get this right. And so before I hand over to colleagues, I would like to make four key asks. Firstly, this investigation must provide clear and binding steps to achieve national change in maternity care, particularly to tackle the inequality of outcomes dependent on the race or wealth of the mother. To this end, the investigation must set out clear, consistent approaches to safety across all maternity units in England, and this means unequivocally defining safety.

Amazingly, there is no shared definition of safety across maternity services. The inquiry must identify the reasons why past recommendations have not been implemented or resulted in change. It must be willing to address any embedded cultural, structural or governance factors that undermine quality, safety and accountability. When investigation reports the task force releases its action plan, the government must fully resourced delivery and ensure robust monitoring and real accountability. Secondly, it is crucial that government sets new National Maternity Safety Ambition.

In 2015, IT government announced ambitious to halve relative rates of stillbirth, neonatal deaths, maternal deaths and brain injuries by 2025. Alongside this, they also announced an ambition to reduce pre-term birth from 8% to 6%. These ambitions are due to expire and in any case, we'r never on track to being met. It's a stark reminder of how important this is that 2500 fewer babies would have died, would have lived if these targets had been reached. Thus, the UK's baby death rate is still considerably worse.

The best performing countries in Europe. And to match these countries, Sands and Tom Hayes proposed new ambitions, with an end date in 2035 to align with the NHS ten year plan. These are, and I apologise to the list, a stillbirth rate of two per 1000 total births and neonatal mortality rate of 0.5 per 1000 live births for babies born at 24 weeks gestation and over a pre-term birth rate of 6%, with disaggregated data for Arch, chronic and spontaneous preterm births. Eliminating inequality and eliminating inequalities in these outcomes based on ethnicity and deprivation.

The government's commitment to close the Black and Asian maternal mortality gap is welcome, but must explicitly include closing the Black and Asian stillbirth and neonatal mortality gaps, establishing routine data collection on miscarriages should be prioritised and, once established, an ambition to reduce miscarriage rates should be added. I would urge the government to be ambitious here and implement these new targets, which will help guide and inform improvements that we made in services in the years to come. Thirdly, we must urgently improve bereavement care for parents in hospitals and the mental health they receive after discharge.

Losing a child is devastating and compassionate care, both immediate and long term, is vital to processing grief. The National Bereavement Care Pathway does aim to standardise bereavement care and states this should be given by train staff. Dedicated grieving spaces provided opportunities for parents to have meaningful moments with their babies offered, and referrals to further support made. Since its 2017 launch, the NHS trusts have gradually adopted the pathway, with full coverage achieved in 2024. However, voluntary uptake and a lack of ringfenced funding have led to Hardy inconsistent implementation, and sometimes it is entirely lacking.

A bereaved mother described the hospital support received as terrible. No aftercare whatsoever. I felt abandoned or mental health spiralled due to lack of support and not knowing where to get help. I left a hospital with a broken heart and bereavement support must continue. Post-discharge. I've already described the challenges my wife Vanessa has faced in accessing specialist support. Specialist support and she is by no means alone. Sands 2025 report found over 80% of parents needed specialist psychological support. Post-discharge. Yet despite the introduction of NHS maternal mental health services in England, only 17% of bereaved parents were actually able to access this.

We must also recognise the additional barriers that fathers and partners face in accessing support. Only 29% of services offered base basic assessments to fathers in 2024, and often this is really quite poor functionary. One father explained how he was assessed and recommended for psychological interventions and a referral to the clinic. Yet the only support he actually received was a leaflet outlining local self-help groups. It's not good enough, and services must recognise that fathers and parents and partners also grieve, and so urge the government to issue clear standards and national guidance for commissioning specialist mental health support services for bereaved parents, including fathers and partners.

Our support must also be given to healthcare professionals who can self be impacted by baby deaths. Training remains inaccessible for many healthcare professionals, and staff often lack the time to ten sessions. Bereavement care must be available during work hours and overall must ensure staff are equipped to support grieving families and to look after themselves. And finally, I want to touch briefly on the role of regulators, most notably the Nursing and Midwifery Council. There is critical maternity safety. An effective and accountable regulator is a crucial component.

The issues the NMC are long term and well-documented, as a 2024 culture review of the organisation noted goodness as they find themselves being investigated for years of a minor issues and bad nurses are escaping sanction because of assistants not functioning as well as it should. Such fairness can have tragic consequences. For instance, the NMC cleared a midwife who had been referred to them following the avoidable death of a baby in Morecambe Bay in 2008. In 2016, the same midwife was linked to a death of another baby and subsequently dismissed by the trust for actions fundamentally below acceptable standards.

This cannot continue, and if we are to deliver on a maternity safety ambitions, we need an effective, culturally healthy regulator. The NMC still has a long way to go until it could be contributed. Contribute. In this way, the government must continue to offer rigorous scrutiny, demanding accountability and ensure it. NMC becomes a regulator that nurses and midwives, as well as the public as a whole, deserve. And so to sum up, Madam Deputy Speaker, each year babies die who should not have. Every year mothers have failed and harmed.

Every year, parents experience profound loss without the support to deal with it. We cannot continue as we are. We have both an opportunity and obligation to act. This government now has the chance to drive a change that we felt in the lives of families for generations. To do this, we must deliver on the full potential of national investigation. Clear, impactful, binding actions must address systemic weaknesses, embedded cultures to ensure long term focus must also adopt ambitious, measurable targets to align with NHS ten Year plan.

These steps to reduce baby loss must come in tandem with a compassionate system of care for those who do experience loss. Despite our very best efforts to end this, the government should issue national guidance on commissioning specialist mental health services for bereaved parents. And finally, the government must ensure the sector has a capable and accountable regulators to ensure professional standards are maintained. Taken together, we can make what has been a story of national tragedy into one of national pride delivering compassionate, exemplary care for women and babies when they need it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

most. This is the challenge and the opportunity before us. We must not fall short. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. The question is, as on the Order Paper, Sir Jeremy Hunt.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Paper, Sir Jeremy Hunt. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And it's a great. Privilege. To come after the honourable member for Rossendale and Darwen.
21:15
Jeremy Hunt Portrait Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Hunt MP (Godalming and Ash, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

member for Rossendale and Darwen. And I want to thank him for working with me and also. The honourable.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The honourable. Lady for Sherwood to secure this debate, and also my. Many colleagues on the Patient Safety Appg. I would on the Patient Safety Appg. I would also like to thank the Secretary of State for being here himself today. It means an enormous amount to families up and down the country to see that commitment from him. And I know it's an issue that he has taken enormous personal interest in. I think the most difficult meeting I had when I was doing his job many years ago was with a man called Karl Hendrickson, who came to see me.

A few days before. I stood at that despatch box to give a statement on the Morecambe Bay inquiry, and he. Lost both his wife and his son at Morecambe Bay. A midwife mistook some fitting by his wife as just fainting, and she died an hour later from an embolism, and the next day

**** Possible New Speaker ****

his son Chester died from brain damage and he came. To see me.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To see me. With his 11 year old son Conrad. And I will never forget it, because it was obviously going to be a very difficult meeting. And I asked him whether he would like his son to sit outside with some of the civil outside with some of the civil servants while we discussed what happened, and he said no, because he happened, and he said no, because he wanted his son to know for the rest of his life that he had taken his concerns about what went wrong, concerns about what went wrong, right to the very top, and asked awkward questions.

And that was what awkward questions. And that was what he did. And I owe a great debt to the Morecambe Bay families, to him, the Morecambe Bay families, to him, to Simon Brady. Lisa Davie, James Kim, many others. The American

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Kim, many others. The American thinker Margaret. Mead had a saying. She said never doubt that a. Small group of thoughtful. Committed people.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Committed people. it's. The only thing. That ever has. And for me, those Morecambe Bay families were that Morecambe Bay families were that small group of thoughtful, committed people, along with the families from people, along with the families from Mid Staffs, Shrewsbury and Telford, East Kent and Nottingham. And many.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Other places. And as we. Reflect in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This very sad and meaningful Baby Loss Awareness Week about what has gone. Wrong. It's also important to remember

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It's also important to remember that progress has been made since then. Since the Morecambe Bay inquiry, the total number of baby deaths overall number is down about 20%. That's about 700 fewer a year, or two fewer a day. And the NHS is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

or two fewer a day. And the NHS is honest. About mistakes. There have been a lot of reforms. We have a chief inspector of hospitals and a QC that is set up to call a spade a spade. When there is call a spade a spade. When there is poor care. We have the duty of candour that is going to be further strengthened by the new Hillsborough law. We have medical examiners, we have Marthas rule. We have freedom have Marthas rule.

We have freedom to speak up guardians. But despite these improvements, there are some these improvements, there are some warning signs. Since the pandemic, the decline in baby deaths has

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the decline in baby deaths has deaths. Has. Actually increased. As the honourable member for Rossendale and Darwen just said, there is big inequality or far more likely to die

**** Possible New Speaker ****

inequality or far more likely to die or. Asian. Baby, as a baby from a deprived background than other babies. And still we have a third of NHS staff.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

According to. The. Staff survey last year, saying they're afraid

**** Possible New Speaker ****

saying they're afraid safety concerns and a half saying they don't think. Anything will. Happen if.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Anything will. Happen if. They do. And I think the thing that is so important to remember, and I've said this to the House on many occasions before, is that if you are. In a birthing unit, if you are. In a birthing unit, if you're present with a C-section and something goes wrong, there is nothing. As a professional, you nothing. As a professional, you want. More than to be open and honest and transparent about what happened so that lessons can be learned, and so that you can make sure that that mistake never happens sure that that mistake never happens again.

But our system makes that practically impossible. You have the practically impossible. You have the QC, the NMC, the GMC, the trust. You have lawyers who get involved. have lawyers who get involved. People worry there is jeopardy for clinicians that if they are on an clinicians that if they are on an open about the ordinary human state, mistakes that anyone can make, they mistakes that anyone can make, they will get punished for it. And the result is that the one thing that needs to happen more than anything needs to happen more than anything else, which is truthfulness to the bereaved families and learning the lessons.

So the tragedy is not repeated, can be the very thing that doesn't happen at all, because instead you get a five year legal process happening and the truth isn't established for maybe five, six, seven years after that. So what needs to happen to put this right?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Well, we've. All got our. Our lists of things, and I echo absolutely everything that was said

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in that wonderful. Speech before me. I would I would sum it up as,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would I would sum it up as, first of all, it is absolutely essential we get the CQC back on its feet. It went badly wrong, I feet. It went badly wrong, I believe, under new leadership that the Secretary of State has put in place. It is going now in absolutely the right direction.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the right direction. But we must. Return to. The one word results so that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The one word results so that parents families know absolutely whether the care in their local hospital or NHS organisation is hospital or NHS organisation is safe. So that is a really important thing. Secondly, we have. A litigation culture, which means that at the moment, annually we spend at the moment, annually we spend about £3.5 billion in maternity awards for where maternity care has awards for where maternity care has gone wrong, not far off the 4 billion total cost of all NHS maternity unit.

It's gone so badly maternity unit. It's gone so badly wrong that many parents think that when something goes wrong, their only friend is not a doctor, but a lawyer, and that cannot be right. We need to have much better need to have much better accountability. The government is absolutely rightly committed to bringing back family doctors. Having your own GP would make an enormous difference because at the moment there is no one inside the NHS to turn to when these things. Go wrong.

And going back to the system, everyone having their own GP could make a really big difference to that. We also need to support the work of brilliant charities like Tommy Sands Clinical Human Factors group, Baby Lifeline in their contribution to making maternity care safer, and we need to tackle the dangerous culture of normal births, which still sees too many mothers steered away from getting a surgical intervention when that would be the safest route for them and for their baby.

So those are all important changes. But I would like

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to say this one final. Thing. We must not return to a targets

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We must not return to a targets culture. I do have some concerns about the new NHS league tables. I about the new NHS league tables. I know that they're set up with the best of intentions, but safety and quality isn't one of the factors quality isn't one of the factors that gets you up the list. And so I know the Secretary State will take great care in the way those are implemented. But I think it is really important that there is always a bottom line, a floor on safety and.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

safety and. Quality. Below which the system never goes. But the thing I really wanted

**** Possible New Speaker ****

goes. But the thing I really wanted to say to the House, in conclusion, is that we must not lose hope if we had the same levels of. Maternity.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Maternity. Safety as. Sweden. One fewer baby would die every

**** Possible New Speaker ****

One fewer baby would die every day if we got at the same as Japan, two fewer babies would die every day. But if we could get the NHS back onto the trajectory that it was back onto the trajectory that it was on. In the years leading up to the pandemic, we would be able to get to care as safe as Sweden's in the next care as safe as Sweden's in the next 5 or 6 years. It really is something within our grasp.

And I just finished by saying this. The NHS was set up on the premise of equality, on the idea that it doesn't matter who you are, rich or poor, young or old, North or South, city or country. Everyone should be able to access the health care they need. What everyone means, every baby as well. And we talk about safety more than any other healthcare system in the world. In this very sad week, while we remember all the people who have lost their dear babies and their dear loved ones in the process of having babies, let us redouble our efforts to make the NHS the safest, highest quality health care

**** Possible New Speaker ****

system in the world. Yeah. Now will be calling the next co-sponsor. Next. However, after co-sponsor. Next. However, after she's spoken, there will be a five minute time limit.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Michelle Welsh here. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, as a home mother from

**** Possible New Speaker ****

as a home mother from Nottinghamshire, my son was born by. Emergency C-section. Because health. Professionals treated me with

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Professionals treated me with utter contempt. Ignored me, didn't do as they should and then said it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

should and then said it. Was all fault. It was all my fault. My son wasn't put in my arms when he was born. Instead.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Instead. It was rushed over to a. Consultant to start him breathing. While I wish had.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

While I wish had. Time to share the details of what happened in the chamber so others can understand the severity of a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

can understand the severity of a failing system. Time does. Not permit me. For those that have lost a baby, we know.
21:25
Michelle Welsh Portrait Michelle Welsh MP (Sherwood Forest, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

have lost a baby, we know. When the world says, I'm. Sorry for. Your loss. It sounds thin and distant.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It sounds thin and distant. Because what was. Lost wasn't just a child. Families have.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Families have. Lost first breaths, first steps. First days of. School and a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

First days of. School and a lifetime of. Silent fear. They have lost hope. We must stop

**** Possible New Speaker ****

shadows. We must speak about the preventable.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

preventable. Errors, the missed opportunities, and the systematic failures and failures in our maternity services failures in our maternity services that have turned dreams into dust. Grief is a fact, but these failures are not inevitable. For too long, the grief of the affected families

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the grief of the affected families has been treated as a private sorrow, an isolated tragedy. But let me be clear.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But let me be clear. These are not isolated incidents. The heartbreak and loss are. A consequence.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A consequence. Of a system that is failing. A system where warnings are. Missed, staff.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Missed, staff. Is insufficient. And preventable. Errors steal precious futures. Tragedies are swept under.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Tragedies are swept under. The carpet. And families have to bite. For answers. We've heard the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For answers. We've heard the data, we've read the report, and we have shared our devastating stories. have shared our devastating stories. We know the truth. Maternity services are fundamentally broken and our babies are paying the price. and our babies are paying the price. I'm not asking for a miracle, but I am demanding competence, safety and accountability. A country where every mother who walks into a delivery room knows she's in the safest hands possible, and that's her baby will be protected.

Our children deserve that safety and the children yet to come deserve it to. And while we cannot bring back the precious babies we lost, we can honour the memory by ensuring their fate is never repeated. We are not just mourning a past. We are fighting for a future. A future where safety is guaranteed, where every mother is heard and where every birth is met with the excellence and dedication it deserves. That the memory of the children we hold in our. Hearts be the light that guides our resolve.

Let the stories be the steel in our spine. We pledge to them and to ourselves. We will fix maternity services. We will build a legacy of safety so powerful that their short

**** Possible New Speaker ****

lives will. Forever protect. The long lives of others. And we will do it for good.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I know. For my own experience as a home to mother in Nottinghamshire, that to mother in Nottinghamshire, that speaking out and sharing what are potentially the most traumatic and personal experiences can be personal experiences can be terrifying, and I want to commend those who have spoken out publicly and to the hundreds of families that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and to the hundreds of families that I've spoken personally to me about their experiences. Yeah. From talking to thousands of women and families, I've seen the recurring issues that are consistent within our maternity services, including a culture of women not including a culture of women not being listened to, a lack of accountability, and a situation that when babies have died in the most horrendous circumstances, families are having to fight over and over are having to fight over and over again for answers, reliving the worst moments of their lives over worst moments of their lives over and over again.

Because the systems in this country are, quite frankly, broken. I was the first elected broken. I was the first elected member in Nottinghamshire to call for an independent review into maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust back in 2020. I'm immensely grateful for the families, some of whom are in the families, some of whom are in the gallery today, for leading that fight for change in Nottingham. We know that almost 1 in 5 stillbirths and neonatal deaths in this country could have been prevented through better care.

Yet the previous government failed to act on this crisis, and families across this country have suffered immensely as a consequence. If I hear one more time that the previous government minister got up and said they were going to do it, yet they didn't. They didn't assign funding to it. False promises to women and babies. We have a real opportunity under this government to make maternity safety safer. Every woman deserves a birth experience where she feels heard, respected and above all, safe.

So let me also be clear this should never be an argument about natural versus surgical, but about what is the safest option for each woman. For too long, the narrative has been poisoned by judgement. We've seen a damaging trend of labelling C-sections as a failure, a shortcut, or a lesser way to give birth. The judgement isn't just fair or unfair, it is dangerous. The pressure created by this toxic conversation can sometimes push clinicians to delay necessary life saving procedures will make women feel immense guilt for a safe outcome.

So let's be clear the safest birth is the most informed birth. We must ensure every woman has access to high quality education regarding birth, and feels confident asking critical questions about their care. We need to create a space where asking for help is not seen as a weakness, but as a commitment to their wellbeing and their baby's health. We must empower and support doctors, midwife, nurses so they can make decisions purely on medical necessity and safety, free from dangerous judgements, including regarding C-sections.

That inquiry requires ensuring the workforce workforce is in place to allow clinician clinicians to be able to do their job, making sure they can make time for training and most importantly, give them time to listen again. A key part of this conversation is continuity of care. It's about ensuring that midwives are given time with women to fully understand each individual's needs and wants, and by doing so, we can reduce the number of instances where potentially life threatening issues and myths and women fall through the cracks.

Continuity of care can help address disparities in maternity, where women see the same midwife throughout their pregnancy. Women, particularly Black and Asian minority women, can build relationships with staff and ensure their experience, culture and religious needs are considered. It creates a safer place for women to discuss sensitive issues, and removes the frustration of having to repeat your story to numerous staff. If we can rebalance the conversations and culture around birth and put in place a system that allows for continuity of care, we can reduce the harm done to babies and families.

Continuity of care after birth will also be vital in reducing deaths just after birth, which currently is disproportionately affecting babies born to mothers living in the most deprived areas of the UK. They are twice as likely to die in the first month as babies born to mothers in the least deprived. Change is so desperately needed. This is what families need and what they are calling for. It's time to listen to the bereaved and harm families, and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

put them at the heart of any reforms. Dear friend, good work. Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My friend, for making such a moving speech. And she's an. awareness.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

awareness. Of this. And if you'll allow me to. Raise the case. Of Hayley Patrick. Copeland, who, as a bereaved.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Copeland, who, as a bereaved. Mum herself has been raising awareness of baby loss and putting in support for bereaved parents. But what I would like to do, if I may, is put on record for centuries to is put on record for centuries to come in this place. The names of her lost.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

lost. And so would my Honourable friend. Join me in remembering them and commemorating Hayley for her commemorating Hayley for her inspirational work, just as she's doing to raise awareness for Babylon's area.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And thank you. That was a very important thing to say. I was.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So pleased when the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care announced the rapid review into maternity services, and I believe he did this to ensure we get on with fixing the problems we know are there, such as continuity of care as there, such as continuity of care as soon as possible. It is vital that in doing so, we take families with in doing so, we take families with us and ensure they are listened to and treated with respect. Let's not waste this real opportunity to change the systems that have been harming families for far too long.

The final key aspect I'd like to address is the need for true accountability. Too often, negligence leads to loss. The failures are there for everyone to see, and recent cries to reduce accountability. I ask you this how can accountability be reduced today in order to improve maternity services when it isn't even there in the first place? So I'm not talking about hounding midwives and obstetricians, but I am saying if

**** Possible New Speaker ****

someone makes a mistake again and. Again. And again and again, as we've seen in Nottinghamshire, and families have to fight for the truth when mothers leave a hospital and made to think it is their fault.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

made to think it is their fault. Then there has to. Be accountability. Yes. A process of accountability and a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A process of accountability and a support that allows good midwives to become great midwives, and where families are clear about a process families are clear about a process that works with them to get the answers and the truth without having to fight this.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to fight this. Thing. Friends making that absolutely

**** Possible New Speaker ****

excellent speech and is. A great. Advocate on this subject. I'm sure she knows about the. Embrace data, which shows

**** Possible New Speaker ****

mortality rates. Across the. Leeds. Has. Very high. Mortality rates.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mortality rates. The highest in the UK. 70% higher than the average.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Those preventable. Baby losses are not accident.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baby losses are not accident. They're not a statistical mistake. leadership. Of hospital trusts with.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of hospital trusts with. Such high rates need. To take. Accountability and to fix it?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Accountability and to fix it? individual. Maternity use, but should. Be taken by the chief exec and highest level at teaching. Teams, right?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I absolutely agree. And I think in Nottinghamshire, if we'd had that we would have a very different story. Now this starts by building a culture that allows people to stand up and say, this is people to stand up and say, this is went wrong. And what? This is why I made a mistake here and I am sorry. It's time to fix it. We cannot It's time to fix it. We cannot accept any more scandals in maternity in this country. There will of course, be times when will of course, be times when nothing more can be done through nobody's fault.

But in those instances where mistakes were made, instances where mistakes were made, clinicians need to come forward. We need to learn from mistakes. How do we learn from mistakes if they are we learn from mistakes if they are never identified? Regulatory frameworks such as the Care Quality Commission, the Midwifery Medical Council's need to step up. The evidence is there for all to see. In evidence is there for all to see. In Nottinghamshire, the NMC failed, the GMC failed and the CQC failed. All GMC failed and the CQC failed.

All of these organisations were informed over and over again about what was over and over again about what was happening in Nottingham and nothing was done, not one thing. And still was done, not one thing. And still to this day, no one has been held accountable. I welcome the government's decision to publish a government's decision to publish a consultation on secondary legislation to modernise regulatory frameworks. I'd be grateful to hear more about this conversation, and I ask the government involved, bereaved and harmed families in this process to understand how regulation must also work for families, and that they also work with organisations such as the Royal College of Midwives to ensure that clinicians are involved in any reforms and change.

There must be balance. It's time for this Labour government to take action. What successive governments have allowed to unfold in maternity care tells a devastating story about how little the lives and experience of women valued those of us were made to feel completely expendable at the most vulnerable moments of our lives. We'll know this to be only too true. How this government chooses to respond is a powerful opportunity to send a decisive message about how it views and values women. It is possible to make change, and every day I meet fantastic organisations run by people have used their own experience to fuel their work in changing lives.

Jo Cruz from delivering better Sharon Luca from the Lucca Foundation, Heidi Eldridge from the Marlborough Academy, Lisa Cockrum from the Dignity and Care Network, and Clearing to Nuku from five times more. I could name so many more. It is truly astonishing how many people across the country are working to the bone to improve our maternity and bereavement services from all corners of our society, from others to midwives, all pushing for change for women and babies of the future. This is no longer just a campaign, this is a movement.

And if the government and NHS do not act now, they risk being left behind. We are facing many crises within our maternity services, but the only way through it is together. Families, midwives, mothers, fathers, nurses, obstetricians, charities, decision makers, Members of Parliament all coming together in this movement to fundamentally reshape our services, to put safe birth, continuity of care and accountability at the centre. I believe we are all here today bound by a shared, heartbreaking truth that no parent should have to say goodbye before hello.

Families affected deserve more than condolences. It is up to us, as in this change chamber, to demand an end to the preventable failures, the systematic neglect and the outdated protocols that steel futures. Grief must become the engine of change. It is not enough to patch a broken system. We must build it stronger and safer than ever before. For every baby whose life is too short. That every family left shattered, and for every future family depending on us. Right now, our task is clear.

The time for analysis is over. The time for delay is over, and I will not rest until our maternity services are fixed permanently and profoundly. We are fighting for a future. A future where safety is guaranteed, where every mother is heard, and where every birth is met with the excellence and dedication it deserves. Let the memory of the children we hold in our hearts be the light that guides our resolve. The baby Harriet, baby Teddy, baby. Junior. Amaya.

Baby. Wanita. Maya. Dexter. Smokey. Baby. Ladybird. Baby. Cooper. For the wonderful, kind and funny Ryan. And for every baby and mother impacted and gone too soon. We must pledge to them and to ourselves. We will fix maternity services. We will build a legacy of safety so powerful that their short lives will forever protect the long lives of others. And we will do it for good.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Day twice a month. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This Baby Loss Madam Deputy Speaker. This Baby Loss Awareness Week, we honour those children who are loved and missed, and we recognise the parents, siblings, families and friends who siblings, families and friends who carry their memories every day. Today, I want to emphasise just how vital it is that we see the quality of bereavement care, standardised and mandated in every NHS trust and and mandated in every NHS trust and health board.

May I mention my constituents, John and Holly Ossman, who live in Wells with their two who live in Wells with their two lively children, six year old twins named Alex and Amelia. It may surprise some of my constituents that I speak about John because we that I speak about John because we don't share a political perspective. However, we share a life experience.
21:41
Tessa Munt Portrait Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
However, we share a life experience. As do so many of my constituents and as I understand, do one in every two of the population in this country, which is the terrible loss of a pregnancy or the death of a baby. And that experience transcends all political differences. Some eight years ago, John and Holly lost their much loved twins, Logan or Lottie, five months into their pregnancy. Logan and Lottie's lives were short locals. Logan was with them for 15 minutes and Lottie for 57 minutes.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Holly is in the gallery this evening. Tells me that registering their births and deaths will remain one of the hardest things they've. Ever.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ever. Had to do. John and Holly were lucky to receive excellent bereavement care from the team at

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bereavement care from the team at Bath Royal United Hospital. At Bath. In 2017 and 2018, were piloting the National Bereavement Care Pathway. Being able to deliver in the Forget Me Not suite, where they receive care from trained bereavement weaponised midwives and spent two days with their babies. Making memories is something they say. They probably didn't realise how much they needed then, but how much they needed then, but cherish deeply now. As Holly highlights the power of compassionate, skilled bereavement compassionate, skilled bereavement care cannot be overstated.

It helped parents begin the process to process parents begin the process to process trauma, to create memories and to honour life, however short that care does not erase loss, but it brings does not erase loss, but it brings dignity and acknowledgement and a foundation for healing. The care parents received in those heartbreaking moments stays with heartbreaking moments stays with them forever. No one can turn back the clock, but we can make a difference through having difference through having compassion, understanding and better care. It shocked me that 50% of bereaved parents reported that they bereaved parents reported that they were able to access support they needed, but only 17% were able to do so through the NHS.

I pay tribute to the NHS clinicians, midwives and support staff who deliver that care with tenderness and professionalism. Good care helps parents and families begin to navigate the painful journey of bereavement. Whether those NHS staff who engage with the bereaved family during this journey have received specialist bereavement training, depends on where this care is being provided. Poor care can deepen that trauma. We know bereavement leaves parents vulnerable to increased risk of risk of developing mental health conditions. That's why it's essential that every parent in the UK has access to standard, high qualified bereavement support, including clearly signposting, timely referrals and specialist mental health care when it's needed most.

Excellent bereavement care should not be a matter of luck nor postcode. The National Bereavement Care Pathway is finally being adopted voluntarily by every hospital offering maternity care in England, the last trust adopting it last year. However, in Scotland, pathway has been mandated by government and the difficulty with voluntary adoption is exactly that. It's voluntary. That means that the nine standards of care, which compromise the bereavement care pathway, are not national standards until they are mandated by the Department of Health in England.

I would ask the Secretary of State to consider mandating the bereavement care pathway with immediate effect, so that those families and friends can be reassured that care, in most difficult of circumstances, will be exemplary to loss in Logan's family and to the many others who have written to me. Thank you for your courage in sharing the most personal of stories, your love for your children and your determination to help other families is a gift to us all. It cannot take away the pain of loss, but we can ensure that no parent walks through it alone.

Thank you. Yeah. Laura Anderson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome this important debate and I thank the members for Sherwood Forest, Rossendale and Darwen and Godalming and Ash for bringing this debate to the House during Baby Loss Awareness Week to speak on a grief that touches thousands, often in silence. And I will use this debate to call for a UK wide perinatal death reduction programme and talk specifically about foetal growth restriction monitoring. And I'm really, really glad that the Secretary of State for health is here in the chamber today, which here in the chamber today, which shows his commitment, which is well timed today as well, to inform the rapid review of maternity and neonatal safety in England for many baby losses, invisible and misunderstood.

This week breaks that misunderstood. This week breaks that silence. It honours lives cut short and it stands with families who carry their memory every day. And carry their memory every day. And like other members, I pay tributes to charities like Sands, Tommy's.
21:45
Fleur Anderson Portrait Fleur Anderson MP (Putney, Labour)
-
-
And the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Must be supported and recognised. But I am here today to speak with a heavy heart and share the story of Maia Devlin Corfield, a beautiful baby girl who should be here today. baby girl who should be here today. Her parents, Shona and Jack, came to my advice surgery to tell me about Maia. Stillbirth at Kingston Maia. Stillbirth at Kingston Hospital. Though Shireen was, pregnancy was low risk. Maia showed pregnancy was low risk. Maia showed signs of growth. Restriction. Staff reassured her but failed to act.

Maia was born still on the 29th of November, 2024. The autopsy showed she was healthy but died to a due to a placental condition that halted her growth and breathing. Babies her growth and breathing. Babies with growth issues like Maia are eight times more likely to die, and it was Kingston's foetal growth it was Kingston's foetal growth monitoring system that failed her. It diverged from national standards and despite early warnings, many and despite early warnings, many unsafe practices like this remain.

The government's own maternity and The government's own maternity and neonatal safety investigation into Maia's death made nine recommendations. Yet risks still recommendations. Yet risks still persist and are not listened to. Shireen and Jack often feel that they are not being listened to, but bereaved parents need to be heard because by listening to them, we can identify those areas that need to change. And it's about that culture as well as the regulation and the standards, which all need to work together to see real change.

FOI requests by Serena and Jack have revealed that at least 27 trusts can't properly identify babies with growth issues, and the issue is that many hospitals use a global growth monitoring system that under detects small babies in high income countries like the UK because they use data from across the world. UK developed systems do exist that are based on NHS data and that are safer and used by many units, but Maia was failed by outdated charts. Growth charts still in use by Kingston and Saint George's and many other hospitals.

A key part of the system is these growth charts. Donald Peebles, NHS England clinical director for maternity, has confirmed that a national safety alert will soon advise trusts to stop using these into growth charts. But is there a system to track which hospitals still use them, and how can we update foetal growth monitoring systems urgently? I've also talked to the chief nurse for the South West London ICB, who highlights issues of midwife retention and recruitment of maternity triage in particular, which needs reform with a universal standard which will ensure

**** Possible New Speaker ****

consistency of safety and access. That early warning systems that failed for Maia and. Are failing others.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Are failing others. And thirdly, that just as we have a mental health investment standard, we should consider a similar we should consider a similar maternity services standard as well. So the demands were changes that are So the demands were changes that are that the Saving Babies Lives Care Bundle, which was published by the NHS England in June 2023, outlines NHS England in June 2023, outlines three key elements for foetal growth monitoring. But they are not consistently adopted and then consistently adopted and then monitored to ensure that they are implemented.

And there are too few of these deaths in each trust to be of these deaths in each trust to be able to take those issues and rely on the trust to be able to take the action. It has to be done at a action. It has to be done at a national level. In fact, it has to be done across every nation. It has to be done in Northern Ireland and to be done in Northern Ireland and Scotland and Wales and England. Otherwise there will be inconsistencies, as there already are, between the different nations.

are, between the different nations. So will the Minister work with counterparts across the UK to ensure that no nation falls behind? Will that no nation falls behind? Will the Minister meet with Serena and Jack to discuss how to improve maternity care and look at the maternity care and look at the findings that they have got? We owe it to Maia. We owe it to every it to Maia. We owe it to every family shattered by preventable baby loss. To demand accountability, to enforce standards, and to ensure that no parent is ever told everything is fine when it's not.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Edward Argar. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I pay tribute to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And can I pay tribute to the Honourable lady, the member for gentleman. The member for Rossendale. Darwen and.
21:50
Edward Argar Portrait Rt Hon Edward Argar MP (Melton and Syston, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Darwen and. My right hon. Friend, the member for Godalming and Ash for. Bringing this debate during Baby Loss Awareness Week, but.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Loss Awareness Week, but. Also for the. Incredibly thoughtful and moving contributions they've already made. To the House.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To the House. And I. Suspect this. Evening we will see this.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Evening we will see this. House at its best, debating in a measured, passionate way. Something of huge importance to so many of our constituents. And I welcome to the Public Gallery, those family members. Who've stayed here in this House to this late hour, because this matters so much to them. As well as paying tribute to the charities bliss, Sands and others who do so much in this space, it's been a privilege for me to meet with and to read correspondence from constituents of mine who have been affected by baby loss, and I have to say, they have carried themselves with the most incredible dignity, given what they have been through.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I'm very conscious. That it is something that they will never get over. And I won't use will never get over. And I won't use surnames because I haven't sought their permission. But I do want to put on the record where they have put on the record where they have given me the name of their their baby who has lost. I just want to put those names on the record put those names on the record because that matters. Baby Winter, baby Harry and baby Chiara Mae.

And baby Harry and baby Chiara Mae. And I know that they will always be their parents baby. And I think it's important that we remember that and important that we remember that and I hope to do them justice. And I have to say, the Honourable lady the member for Sherwood Forest, I think, member for Sherwood Forest, I think, was spoke with incredible eloquence when she made the point that it is not just about mourning the past, not just about mourning the past, but fighting for the future.

And I think she sums up what this debate must be about. If it is about anything. We have seen progress made, but it is sadly not enough. As made, but it is sadly not enough. As my right hon. Friend mentioned, that progress has apparently plateaued since the pandemic, and we still see terrible inequality of outcomes across different groups in our society. And sadly, giving birth is society. And sadly, giving birth is not risk free, but by no means all of those baby losses are inevitable, many are avoidable, and we need to make sure we do all we can to reduce that risk.

And when something goes wrong, as it has, sadly, on too many occasions, families deserve transparency, they deserve openness, and they deserve a fight for improvement. And they need to be believed and listened to. We've seen Morecambe Bay, Telford East, Kent, Nottingham. I could go on, but I will focus briefly on Nottingham as a Leicestershire MP. Many of my constituents will have been affected. The work being done by Donna Ockenden I know is very welcome and has she has built extraordinary trust with the families and those who have been failed.

And I welcome as well the National Review that the Secretary of State has put in place in the work being done by the noble Baroness Amos. But I would gently say to him, and I know he will know this. There are, of course, different views among the families, but I would just encourage him in that review team to continue to take the families with them, to work with them at each stage and to listen to them. Improvements are needed. The CQC, my right hon.

Friend mentioned he's absolutely right. We need to see continued transparent engagement by that review with the families. We need to see whether there can be more done to look at the role of the independent regulators. I think it's important that we look at the support available for both parents when the worst happens and when they are bereaved. We need to raise more awareness. But I know the Secretary of State knows that, and I know that the families I've spoken to speak well of him.

I know him well. He is a decent man and he cares. I know deeply about this, and I know he's listening. The fact that a Secretary of State is on the bench today, at this hour, and will conclude this debate at around midnight, is testament to his commitment. So I wish him well in his work. I conclude by saying, it behoves all of us to continue to strive to do more, to reduce the numbers of avoidable baby deaths, to reduce the pain that avoidable baby loss causes.

But equally, I look to the words of my right hon. Friend, he is right. We must also focus on hope and progress, focusing on safety, accountability, and what more we can do to ensure that a child come into this world is not a moment of sadness and grief, but a moment of joy. And I wish the Secretary of State well in his work on that here.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Not sure. Deputy Speaker, can I first thank the member for Roisin first thank the member for Roisin Dillon Darwen for all his work to secure this debate and indeed his sharing of his personal experience. And the member for Sherwood Forest.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And the member for Sherwood Forest. And it. Is your personal experience. People's personal experiences, that make this place a better place
21:55
21:55
21:55
Naz Shah Portrait Naz Shah MP (Bradford West, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Losing a child. Is one of the most devastating. Experiences any parent can face. As other members have expressed.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As other members have expressed. Words cannot describe the immense personal pain in dealing with such grief. To carry a child. For nine months, sometimes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For nine months, sometimes. Less, to dream of. them. Is. Simply unimaginable. As a mother.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Simply unimaginable. As a mother. Of. Three, my heart goes out to every parent who has endured the heartbreak of losing their child or heartbreak of losing their child or baby. This is why this debate during Baby Loss Week Awareness Week could not be more timely. Baby loss is not just a personal tragedy, it is a public health issue, in particular when it occurs at the result of preventable errors or gaps in care. What that we have the power to fix

**** Possible New Speaker ****

baby loss. Has a deep and lasting. Impact not only on mothers and fathers, sibling and entire families. For some, that pain comes immediately after the loss, and for others, it. May take.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

others, it. May take. Weeks or months. Before the full. Emotional weight is felt.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Emotional weight is felt. That is why I welcome the new law to be to amend the Employment Rights Bill, which will extend the bereavement leave to those who experience pregnancy loss. I thank the member for Luton North and the Chair of Women and Equalities Committee for her work in driving this change. It cannot be right that someone who suffered a miscarriage

**** Possible New Speaker ****

someone who suffered a miscarriage in the morning, losing the future that was dreamed of, is. Expected to turn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Expected to turn. Up at work at 9 a.m, as if nothing has happened. I'm proud of the Labour government has recognised the real human cost of that loss, and ensured families receive the time, care and support they need to begin to heal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

begin to heal. In Bradford, we have seen. The devastating impact when maternity. Care falls. Short.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But Protection Hospital Trust is one of those 14 NHS trusts now under review for historic maternity areas,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

a clear sign that systemic. Change. Is urgently needed. In November 2021, two newborn babies tragically 2021, two newborn babies tragically lost their lives at Bree Battle. Royal Infirmary after lapses in hygiene allowed a drug resistant superbug to spread through the neonatal unit. A report found that staff were not consistently following hand hygiene guidelines, and were unclear about the use of protective equipment. These were preventable deaths, heartbreaking for the families involved. I welcome the measures the trust has since put in place, but we must ensure that lessons are truly learned so that no family ever has to endure such pain

**** Possible New Speaker ****

again. Every mother deserves to give birth knowing she and her baby. Will. Receive the best possible care and care.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and care. Which is rooted in. Safety, dignity and compassion. In Bradford, a mother gave birth to In Bradford, a mother gave birth to her son on the 13th of February 2023. He sadly passed away the next 2023. He sadly passed away the next day. She was moved between units with little communication and no explanation of what was happening. She was not offered a transfer to another trust where her baby might have received neonatal care and a have received neonatal care and a chance of survival.

Her son was born alive, but died in her arms, and her record were later found to wrongly

**** Possible New Speaker ****

record were later found to wrongly describe the loss as a miscarriage. such. Failings.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In describing what she went through, she said. My experience at Bradford Hospital's maternity unit Bradford Hospital's maternity unit destroyed me. My son died after his birth. I nearly died myself, but they didn't care. They sent me home

**** Possible New Speaker ****

they didn't care. They sent me home the same. Day he died, even. Though I had he, even though I had clear signs of infection.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

had clear signs of infection. I left that hospital without with not just empty arms, but with a. Body that has never.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Body that has never. Been the same again. Now all I have is. A baby. I can visit at the graveyard, and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I can visit at the graveyard, and a lifetime of pain that bear caused in my own constituency. I have consistently advocated the concern about the standards of maternity services and the leadership at Bradford Teaching Hospital Trust. On

**** Possible New Speaker ****

New Year's Eve last year. A couple. From Bradford. Were wrongly told their. Unborn baby.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Unborn baby. Had died and the day before she was delivered, the day after she was delivered, fit and healthy, Jamal and his wife called. You were told and his wife called. You were told by doctors there was no heartbeat. And then when they went for a routine test, they described their

**** Possible New Speaker ****

routine test, they described their back. No parent. Should ever have to experience such pain and uncertainty.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

such pain and uncertainty. And they have written to the Health Secretary. Secretary of State, and I am glad that. He's taken.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Notice of that. And I really appreciate the. Maternity review being led by. Baroness Baranowski and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baroness Baranowski and. Baroness and. Well. I've. Lost my work. I really am off and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

off and. I welcome that. But the thing for me is what lessons must be learned and Bradford

**** Possible New Speaker ****

lessons must be learned and Bradford needs to be there. For. Me for the failures at Bradford really need to stop. So nobody goes really need to stop. So nobody goes through that again. They Tom Morrison. Thank you to Speaker

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Morrison. Thank you to Speaker Genevieve Meehan. Affectionally, of. July, 2021. At Stepping.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

At Stepping. Hill Hospital. She was small. But perfectly. Formed and by all accounts, the. Happiest little person.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Happiest little person. You can meet. A Gigi loved dancing with a big sister. She loved trying. Spaghetti bolognese. She loved playing with her favourite green tambourine. These are the precious, ordinary moments that make every.
22:00
Tom Morrison Portrait Tom Morrison MP (Cheadle, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Parent treasures, that we.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Been reaching those magical. Milestones that feel parents. With pride and wonder. She waved for the. First time. She pulled.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

First time. She pulled. Herself up to stand. She said, Dada, each one of those are cause for. Celebration, each one a. Promise

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Celebration, each one a. Promise of all the milestones yet to come. Her parents. right.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

right. They chose a. Nursery, well known in the area. With positive recommendations from friends and respectable Ofsted

**** Possible New Speaker ****

results. They visited multiple times. They attended, settling in sessions. The staff.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The staff. Seemed well trained and capable. It felt safe. They trusted that nursery. With. The most precious thing.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The most precious thing. In their lives. But in May. 2022, that. Trust. Was shattered.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was shattered. Gigi. A loving and happy ten month year old. Girl. Was left strapped. To a beanbag face.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To a beanbag face. Down without. Being checked. By the nursery staff. She died at nursery. The nursery was. Not safe.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Not safe. It was not. Caring and it failed Gigi at the. Cost. Of. Her life. Now, no.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Now, no. Parent should ever have to experience what. Katie and. John. Have experienced. No parent.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

No parent. because. Basic standards. Of care were not followed. No parent should. that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that. Should already exist to protect the children who come after. Yet that is. Exactly what Katie and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

John are doing. In the face. imaginable. They are campaigning tirelessly for Gigi. To.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To. Make our nurses. Safer for all children. Now, as a new father. Myself, I cannot begin to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Myself, I cannot begin to comprehend the devastation that Katie and John have endured. And when I look. At my daughter, Poppy. I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

See. The same joy, the same wonder, the. Same infinite promise that Gigi brought to this world. And I am haunted. By the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I am haunted. By the knowledge that what happened to her, their daughter, did happen to our children. Katie and John. Are not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Katie and John. Are not. Alone in their grief. It's an. All too. Common story that. Nationally agreed. Standards of care and not being

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Standards of care and not being adhered to, leading to avoidable deaths, whether in maternity units, neonatal care. Or. Nurseries and creches.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Or. Nurseries and creches. Gigi's campaign has already achieved important progress. Ofsted inspections. Will be. More frequent.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

More frequent. Every four. Years instead of six, in. Collaboration with the Lullaby Trust in early. Years, Foundation state.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Years, Foundation state. Statutory framework. Will be updated to include. Include more. Detailed safe sleeping. Guidance.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Guidance. But this cannot be the end. Mandatory safe sleep training for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mandatory safe sleep training for implemented. In all nurseries. Far more. Ofsted inspections. Must be unannounced.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Must be unannounced. There can be no doubt that the lives of babies and their families will be saved. If these measures are seriously considered and implemented by the government, as the Sands and Tom Hayes policy report, Saving Babies Lives 2024 States with political will, progress is possible.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This government. Must have a relentless political will in ensuring that our nurseries and maternity.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and maternity. Units are the very safest places in the world. No babies should. Ever lose their life at the hands

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ever lose their life at the hands of inadequate standards of care. A reliance. On whistleblowing culture. And a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lax inspection routine. Katie and John should be watching Gigi. Grow up. They should be seeing her start

**** Possible New Speaker ****

They should be seeing her start school. They should. See her make. Friends, discover who she is. Instead, they are fighting to ensure

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Instead, they are fighting to ensure that no other parent endures. Their nightmare. We owe it to Gigi. We owe it to Katie and. John.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

John. And we owe it to every parent who trusts us to keep their children safe. We have to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Do better. Juliet Campbell. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I'd like to take the opportunity to thank my honourable friends from. Sherwood Forest, Rossendale.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sherwood Forest, Rossendale. And Darwen for. Bringing this debate to the House. As we know, this debate House. As we know, this debate coincides with Baby Loss Awareness Week, a time that we pause to remember every baby who has been remember every baby who has been lost far too soon. This week provides us with the chance to take stock of this sensitive issue, and
22:04
Juliet Campbell Portrait Juliet Campbell MP (Broxtowe, Labour)
-
-
stock of this sensitive issue, and to commit to. Supporting family members, including fathers and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Siblings, by improving. Services for all. Families affected by baby loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Families affected by baby loss. 2023, there are over 4000 baby deaths in the UK. And behind. Every. One of those numbers.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Every. One of those numbers. Is a family whose life. Will never be the same again. The pain that families.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The pain that families. Experience is the same as the pain of losing a. Child, any. Child, and they deserve the same sensitivity.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

sensitivity. As with any other bereavement. So while we've made significant

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So while we've made significant progress over the last few decades, the rates of baby deaths. Remain too high and we know.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Remain too high and we know. disproportionately. High among families from African, Caribbean and Asian families and Caribbean and Asian families and families from deprived backgrounds. This inequality.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is a challenge that our society, our NHS. And our. Government must address. Urgently

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Government must address. Urgently and our NHS, maternity and neonatal services must be supported to provide that care.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

provide that care. And that means. Proper funding, proper training.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And a service provision that recognises the medical, social. And emotional needs of families.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And emotional needs of families. It also means ensuring that the staff have the support to offer a. compassion. profound.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Impact on all members of the family. Every parent experiencing. A miscarriage, stillbirth.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A miscarriage, stillbirth. Or neonatal. Loss deserves a safe space where they.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can grieve with dignity. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to take this. Opportunity to pay tribute to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Opportunity to pay tribute to Forever Stars, a charity that's based in my constituency of Broxtowe. Founded by Michelle and. Richard Daniels.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Richard Daniels. Who have lived experience of baby loss, their strength and dedication

**** Possible New Speaker ****

loss, their strength and dedication to families that have experienced. Baby loss has flourished. Into an organisation that. Provides understanding and comfort Provides understanding and comfort to hundreds of families across Nottingham and Nottinghamshire. But

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this should not have been left to a grieving family. The creation. Of baby loss services. Memorial

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of baby loss services. Memorial gardens and specialist bereavement spaces should. Be a. Standard part of our.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Be a. Standard part of our. Health and social. Care service. I therefore call upon the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I therefore call upon the government to see this as the opportunity to design and develop. that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Experience baby loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Experience baby loss. Sarah Gibson. Thank you. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to raise a point brought to me by a constituent. His sister was stillborn many years ago in a situation where his mother was simply told, don't.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Worry, dear. You'll have another one next year. No bereavement.
22:07
Sarah Gibson Portrait Sarah Gibson MP (Chippenham, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

No bereavement. Counselling and more importantly, no marked grave. So this child, it no marked grave. So this child, it turns out my constituent found out some years later, quite recently,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that his sister had been buried in. A communal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A communal. Unmarked grave. It appears that there are some 89,000 children, because this practice went on until the late 1980s. So these family have the late 1980s. So these family have had a lifelong pain of not knowing where to grieve, how to grieve, or

**** Possible New Speaker ****

where to grieve, how to grieve, or where to focus their attention, with. No chance.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of finding it. These children deserve our support, and I would hope that this House will share my view that the government really does need to step in and just provide a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

need to step in and just provide a small memorial so. That these families. Can have a focus for their grief

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can have a focus for their grief and some acknowledgement that these children existed. I would be grateful.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I would be grateful. Of this House, would share this. I have put this forward as an EDM, and I. Know.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Know. That the. Minister has kindly offered to. Meet with these families. his. Support. On.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

On. This matter. Thank you. Sharon Hodgson, thank you very much, Madam.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

much, Madam. be. Able to take part in this debate today and to follow.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So many excellent opening speeches. It really is very moving
22:08
Sharon Hodgson Portrait Mrs Sharon Hodgson MP (Washington and Gateshead South, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

speeches. It really is very moving debate that were all taken. Part in today in order to. Once again, Mark Baby Loss

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Once again, Mark Baby Loss Awareness Week, not. Least on behalf. Of myself and my story. And that of. My.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My. tragically. Lost back in. 1998, but also. On behalf.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of all the MPs. In this. Place. Women and. Men who are not. Yet. Ready or.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ready or. Able to stand. And tell their story, as indeed I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And tell their story, as indeed I spoke. Of my loss. Or. Told anyone who. Didn't know me back. When it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

When it. Had happened, and that was for almost 20 years. That was. Until I helped set.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Until I helped set. Up the all party parliamentary. Group on. Baby loss. The. When we first.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

When we first. Set it up back in 2016. And. That was. 11 years. After I'd been elected. That was.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

After I'd been elected. That was. cross-party. MPs, all of whom are no longer in this House. Apart from. who's.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Now in the other place. I told. Them my. point. To the table that we all.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To the table that we all. Sat around. And shared our stories. Through floods of tears. And that was the first time.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And that was the first time. That I'd actually spoken. About it in any detail, since it had happened two. Decades earlier.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Decades earlier. It was, and I think. It maybe still is to a certain

**** Possible New Speaker ****

extent, the last great. Taboo that a. Lot of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Parents have to. Navigate their way through. Not long. Not long thereafter, I was

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Not long thereafter, I was the. New. Officers of the new All-party group, with. Regard. To the former member for East

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To the former member for East Worthing in Shoreham, Tim Lawton's. Private Member's Bill. Part of which. Covid, as.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Covid, as. Those who. Were. Around at. The. Time, baby loss. And the lack of any recognition for. Pre. 24 week.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

24 week. Stillborn babies. Or. What are in. Law still called. Late term miscarriages. His

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Late term miscarriages. His Private Member's Bill was trying to. Address this with. as. Baby.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baby. Loss certificates. He had been approached by his constituents, Hayley and Fraser, who gave birth to. Their son.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Their son. Samuel at 19 weeks, who was. Tragically stillborn. And they had been horrified. To receive.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

No official recognition and even worse, to learn their child was entered up on official.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

entered up on official. Records as a miscarriage. As indeed, like My Lucy. Was a 23. Weeks and four.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Days, just. A few short. Days, days short.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Days, days short. recognition. Tim also cited another tragic. Case of twins born either side of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Case of twins born either side of the. 24 week threshold, one of whom thankfully. Survived and was given a birth certificate, but the other

**** Possible New Speaker ****

birth certificate, but the other born just a day. Or so. Earlier on. The wrong. Side. Of. survive.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

survive. And receive no official recognition and was entered up on. Their official records as a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Their official records as a miscarriage. This to all those parents and to Tim. As it. Had to mean. My.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Husband when it happened to us, felt grossly wrong. So Tim set about trying to change the law and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

trying to change the law and. Hence the approach to me, to say if I would be brave enough to stand here, or as it was. Over there and tell my story as it was so absolutely relevant to the case he absolutely relevant to the case he was trying to make. Well, somehow I managed to do it, and it's all down on record for anyone to read or on record for anyone to read or watch, so I won't repeat it all again today.

And it did involve an awful lot of tears, which I think for those who've spoken today,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

you've somehow managed not to be in floods. But I did. It as lots of. You have done, and I commend you

**** Possible New Speaker ****

all for sharing your heartbreaking stories and those yet still to share and. Remember, for every. One of us here to bear witness,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

One of us here to bear witness, there will no doubt be. Many more. Of us who are not yet ready to do so. I was very proud of myself back in February 2018 and that 20 and that private members debate. And to give mine and Lucy's story in detail and for my experience and Lucy's all and for my experience and Lucy's all too brief life to have perhaps made a difference in helping to change the law and to bring about the now the law and to bring about the now much treasured for so many parents baby loss certificates.

And it is baby loss certificates. And it is still something I'm very proud of. After that debate and all the publicity it garnered, the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

publicity it garnered, the honourable member for Godalming and. Ash. Who was Health secretary at the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Who was Health secretary at the time and who I want to pay tribute to for everything he did, set up an official Department of Health expert

**** Possible New Speaker ****

official Department of Health expert working group that Tim and I both sat on to consult on. What what a. Change in the law.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Change in the law. Would look like and how the baby loss. Certificates would work. And I was very glad when, just before the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

was very glad when, just before the election in February. 24th. The last government announced the rollout of the first ever baby loss certificates. And if I can just say as welcome as these certificates are, in closing, I do worry that there are still some unintended consequences, as they often are when first enacting new policies. And I've been contacted by Catherine, whose much wanted baby died at 12 weeks, and through the grieving process, she found comfort in knowing she would get a baby loss certificate for her son, Matthew.

However, when she applied for the certificate, she found she was not able to add her partner's name to it as he was registered with the GP on the Scottish side of the border. Whilst relationships across English Scottish border aren't common, nor are they unheard of. Catherine asked me to ask the Secretary of State who I am very happy to see. He is here tonight. Personally, what steps could be taken to include both parents names on baby loss certificates, where they are registered with GPS and different countries within the UK? I am sure it's an anomaly, and I hope that the Secretary of State can perhaps address this in their response in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

due to time and will. Grace. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will leave my remarks there. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate. The honourable lady finishing. Her remarks, and. Members will notice that I.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was. Quite indulgent. Then, unfortunately, I am going to have to. Reduce it to a four. Minute.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minute. Time limit so that I could get all members in, but that will be after the next speaker. Monica

**** Possible New Speaker ****

after the next speaker. Monica Harding. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the honourable members and Right

**** Possible New Speaker ****

honourable members and Right Honourable members for. Bringing this. Debate to the chamber today. And my colleagues. There, other. Speakers for their moving

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Speakers for their moving remarks. And it is a privilege to follow the member for Washington and Gateshead South for sharing her Gateshead South for sharing her story. And on behalf of all those untold stories, and I speak for all untold stories, and I speak for all my families in eastern Walton who have dealt with baby loss. Their

**** Possible New Speaker ****

stories are many, their grief is and. Those families.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Those families. With us today who are intent on turning their grief into others.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hope your bravery humbles us all. Today I will focus on one family. Last week. I was visited by my.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Constituents, the. Wonderful, brave parents of Jemmy Alderman, whose story reminds us that there is still so much we must do to protect our youngest and most vulnerable. Jemmy was.
22:16
Monica Harding Portrait Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Just.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Six weeks old when he. Died last October. He had been breastfed whilst being carried in a sling at home, something many parents understandably see as practical, understandably see as practical, safe and nurturing. But tragically, position.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And lost consciousness. Despite his. Parents desperate attempts to save him. He died three

**** Possible New Speaker ****

days later. Following the inquest. The senior coroner issued a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Prevention of Future Death report, which found. That guidance available to parents on the safe use.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of baby carriers and slings. Particularly when feeding, was wholly inadequate. The coroner

**** Possible New Speaker ****

wholly inadequate. The coroner highlighted the absence of clear NHS. Advice. The lack of visual guidance showing safe versus unsafe positions showing safe versus unsafe positions and the limited awareness of suffocation risks. Especially for suffocation risks. Especially for newborns and premature babies. In response, the National Childbirth Trust and the Lullaby Trust have Trust and the Lullaby Trust have both updated their advice, warning that hands free breastfeeding or bottle feeding when using a sling is bottle feeding when using a sling is unsafe, particularly for babies under four months old.

Their message under four months old. Their message is now clear that if your baby needs to feed, you need to take them out of a sling. These are important

**** Possible New Speaker ****

steps. But it should not. Fall solely to grieving parents and charities to close such critical and charities to close such critical gaps in public information. National guidance must keep pace with modern guidance must keep pace with modern parenting practices, and it is vital that the NHS clearly sets out the risks and best practices around baby carriers and feed in safety. Jimmy's parents have showed extraordinary parents have showed extraordinary courage and in Jimmy's memory they are calling for a couple of.

Simple are calling for a couple of. Simple but vital reforms. First, a national awareness campaign to promote the safe use of slings and carriers, and second, consideration of tighter regulation and industry standards regulation and industry standards for baby carrier safety. These are sensible, achievable measures and sensible, achievable measures and could save many lives. And that is what Jimmy's parents are motivated by, that nobody should have to go by, that nobody should have to go through the entirely preventable grief that they have.

So may I ask the Minister, would he agree to meet with Jimmy's parents and I to discuss how the Department of Health can support this campaign, including can support this campaign, including through updated NHS guidance and national awareness initiative, and a review of safety standards for baby carriers. By working together, we can ensure that Jimmy's short life leads to lasting change and that no other parent has to. Endure the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

unimaginable pain that his family has faced here. Jess Asato. Thank you, Madam

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Jess Asato. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the honourable members for securing. Today's debate on such an important issue. That is sadly.
22:18
Jess Asato Portrait Jess Asato MP (Lowestoft, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

That is sadly. Too often overlooked. Earlier this year, I was incredibly grateful to have met with

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Angels and. Rainbows. A local group in my Lowestoft constituency run by bereaved parents constituency run by bereaved parents who support others through the experience of baby loss. I would like to put on record in this place

**** Possible New Speaker ****

my sincere thanks for the vital work that they do, which is. Life.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Affirming, trauma. Informed and grounded in the realities of grief. One key issue they wish to me to One key issue they wish to me to raise today was how women who have just lost a baby are placed on the same wards as those who have just

**** Possible New Speaker ****

same wards as those who have just given birth. It feels deeply. Cruel. That parents who have just been

**** Possible New Speaker ****

through the trauma of child loss. Should have. To share. The same space as joyful new mothers and healthy new babies mothers and healthy new babies making their first cries. That is why hospital should provide a space away from new parents to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

away from new parents to the maternity unit, so parents. Can grieve in. Peace. As my local hospital.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Peace. As my local hospital. part. Of the new hospital building programme, I hope their senior leadership look at the need for a dedicated private space for bereavement care in their plans.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bereavement care in their plans. Training is key to. Parents told me how vital. It is for staff.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is for staff. To receive appropriate training in how to. Communicate sensitively with families going through baby loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

families going through baby loss. As one constituent said, I felt the staff weren't prepared or prepared me on what was happening.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Or going. To happen. It was as if it was a taboo subject.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The quality of care my constituents received has been very inconsistent, with some feeling well inconsistent, with some feeling well supported and others not at all. Particularly once out of hospital, Particularly once out of hospital, one of my constituents found out at her 12 week scan that she had suffered a missed miscarriage and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

suffered a missed miscarriage and was given medication and told to expect an experience similar to. A.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A. Bad period. Instead, she learned passed out from the agonising pain, had. Contractions and passed.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Contractions and passed. The pregnancy on her bathroom. Floor at home. what. To.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To. Do next, and was not given. Any reassurance. When she reached out for advice. She wasn't followed. She wasn't

**** Possible New Speaker ****

offered a follow. Up scan or contact. By a midwife, or signposted counselling or a. Specialist counselling or a. Specialist service. Left without support, she

**** Possible New Speaker ****

was later diagnosed with PTSD. Unprepared staff, the dearth of support services and long. Waiting times for counselling.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Waiting times for counselling. Make this horrible situation worse, and it is also important to recognise that fathers are suffering too, from that lack of support. Dads told me that they even felt ignored

**** Possible New Speaker ****

told me that they even felt ignored support. Their partners in turn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We must do better for everyone. That's why Angels and. Rainbows are campaigning. For a full time. Bereavement midwife or

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bereavement midwife or bereavement support worker in every hospital. For a while. We. Had one at the. James Paget.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

James Paget. And some really. Positive changes have been made. As a result. Working with our intrepid support

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Working with our intrepid support group. Sadly, in May of this year that one was. acknowledging. That the role was undoubtedly

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That the role was undoubtedly beneficial to families. While all midwives. help.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

help. Co-produce change with those. through. And then. Importantly, sustain.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Importantly, sustain. That change. In the words of one of my constituents, baby loss is not of my constituents, baby loss is not just a medical event. It is the loss of a child, a dream, and a future. of a child, a dream, and a future. Without compassionate systems in place. The trauma of miscarriage can

**** Possible New Speaker ****

last a lifetime with her words to close. I am grateful. For the. Opportunity to share in this moving debate. During Baby Loss

**** Possible New Speaker ****

moving debate. During Baby Loss Awareness Week. Thank you, Chris Cochran. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and. Right. Honourable. Members for. Sherwood Forest. Diane and. Rossendale and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Godalming and Ash for calling. This important debate. I know. First hand the commitment of the Right Honourable. these.
22:23
Chris Coghlan Portrait Chris Coghlan MP (Dorking and Horley, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Issues.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With my constituents. Jamie. And Ellie Thompson.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And Ellie Thompson. They lost their son Billy, on Easter Sunday 2024. Just 15 days.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Short of. His fifth birthday. It was diffuse Intrinsic pontine.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Glioma. One of the rarest. Cancers and one of the worst.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Attacks only children. It attacks the brain. It is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

untreatable. Billy was. The brightest. Most cheerful. Little boy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Little boy. He loved superheroes. He loved rugby just like his dad. His mum. Said that everyone.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Said that everyone. Who met him fell in love. One day. He was.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

He was. Playing at the beach with. His sister Maddie and his parents. And he wasn't his. Usual self.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Usual self. Five months later, he was gone. Jamie and Ellie. Told me how their beautiful boy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Told me how their beautiful boy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

became angry, anxious and in agony. They said. About that terrible.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

About that terrible. Struggle to look happy in front of him and break down in the room next door. One day.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Billy said, mummy, I can't see as he slowly lost use of his eyesight and his limbs. Sadly, mistakes in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and his limbs. Sadly, mistakes in palliative care meant that his last days were brutal. Two.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Two. Today his. Family trying to make sense. Of. It all. Jamie took out his anger. Playing a season.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of. Hard rugby. Ellie threw herself into a local

**** Possible New Speaker ****

community projects in Billy's memory. They both suffer from. Flashbacks. But thankfully Maddy is now.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Eight. And seems OK. Madam get to speak

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And seems OK. Madam get to speak it time and time again. I have seen lives. To turn. It. To.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To. Positive change for others. Jamie and Ellie have started a charity,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Billy's Battalion. They fundraising. To support. Five promising trials and Dipg treatment at Great Ormond Street Hospital. And I asked the Secretary to see if there's anything that the government can do to support. This is what Jamie and Ellie are doing to is what Jamie and Ellie are doing to honour Billy's memory. It is people

**** Possible New Speaker ****

like them who inspire me the most. Olivia Blake speaker. And it's a privilege to speak in the debate, and I thank the co-sponsors.
22:25
Olivia Blake Portrait Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)
-
-
And the committee for allowing.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Floor of the House today. And to everyone who's spoken so far, so

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bravely. Whether that's sharing your own experience or that of your. Constituents. These debates do have a true

**** Possible New Speaker ****

These debates do have a true impact. This is of profound personal significance to me as it is to so

**** Possible New Speaker ****

many families up and down the five. Years alongside Tommy's many in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this House. Myleene Klass, MBA, Sands and Miscarriage Association for changes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Miscarriage Association for changes. And simple. want. To.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To. Recognise for those whom this is not an abstract. Discussion. But a reflection of one of the hardest chapters.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

hardest chapters. Of their lives. To every parent. Who has experienced the. Heartbreak of losing a baby, I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

wouldn't say your loss. Matters and. Your voice matters. Time and time again, investigations into maternity and investigations into maternity and neonatal care have often revealed the same issues poor communication. Missed warning signs and families

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Missed warning signs and families left to fight for answers. National standards of care are not being. Followed. And too often, bereaved parents

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And too often, bereaved parents are left wondering. Whether lessons will ever truly be learned. That is why the forthcoming national investigation into maternity and neonatal services is. So important. It must drive lasting change, and I urge the Secretary of State who am I'm so pleased to see in his place today to ensure there is clear national oversight on how any recommendations are implemented. The investigation must also take on ambitious approaches to improving maternal health and reducing baby loss.

We need a focussed national strategy that sets new maternity safety ambitions, tackles inequalities and. Ensures consistency across all services. And I want to briefly mention infertility. Services within that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

commissioned. Services. Are simply not good enough. They're not fit for purpose. In some places you get nothing, in other

**** Possible New Speaker ****

places you get nothing, in other places you get three, as nice suggests. In other. Places, if you're LGBT.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

You have to pay thousands and. Thousands of pounds. And I think as. Joy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Joy. The Netflix. Story that was told so well. Showed the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

so well. Showed the. Same the same backwards. Thoughts about infertility treatments still

**** Possible New Speaker ****

about infertility treatments still exist in local commissioning boards. No more in. South Yorkshire.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

South Yorkshire. Where there currently consulting on. And I'm quoting. From. The website. Asking for views on the number of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Asking for views on the number of IVF cycles we should offer in South Yorkshire and how much gluten free Yorkshire and how much gluten free produce we provide on the NHS. Prescription to compare gluten free subsidies. And, you know, I have coeliac in my family. I understand the struggle, but compare that to the loss of babies.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the loss of babies. Which many. Couples who go through IVF will have suffered is simply not good

**** Possible New Speaker ****

enough. Their own. Numbers show that the saving. Of. Reducing from 2 to 1 cycle

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of. Reducing from 2 to 1 cycle would only be £280,000. A year. That would be less. Than £0.02.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Per person in the whole ICB area. Let's take that money centrally so

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Let's take that money centrally so the. UK, you have access to the three.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

UK, you have access to the three. you. Might have. Suffered five miscarriages, three

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Suffered five miscarriages, three miscarriages, baby loss, stillborn. You might be being told by your doctors not to try for your risk to doctors not to try for your risk to your life, and only to get support through IVF. This is simply not good through IVF. This is simply not good enough and these services are also diagnostic. I know people who've had endometriosis costs, blocked tubes, endometrial cancers, polyps, fibroids discovered not through

**** Possible New Speaker ****

fibroids discovered not through going to a gynaecologist, but for going to a fertility doctor. We should value.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We should value. That and not just see this as an excess and a cost. And I think it should be taken back centrally and should be taken back centrally and provided on that basis. Yes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

provided on that basis. Yes. John Milne thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker, and I pay tribute to all the moving speeches we've heard so the moving speeches we've heard so far tonight. There are few losses in life more devastating than that of a child. It's every parent's greatest
22:29
John Milne Portrait John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
child. It's every parent's greatest fear. But when a baby dies, just as life is beginning, at the very moment when joy and expectation is at its highest, the pain is all the harder to bear. Chloe and Toby from my constituency of Horsham, along with nine other Sussex families, have gone through this unimaginable experience. Their babies died in the care of University Hospitals Sussex NHS trust between 2021 and 2023. Chloe and Toby aren't natural

**** Possible New Speaker ****

campaigners. It's not. Something they ever. Expected or wanted to do. They're

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Expected or wanted to do. They're simply grieving parents looking for truth, accountability. And, above. All, change. University Hospital.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

University Hospital. Sussex, like. Public services in general, is under immense pressure. Staff are. Working. In.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In. A system. Stretched beyond capacity. I want to acknowledge those efforts. The countless clinicians, midwives and countless clinicians, midwives and support staff who show up day in and day out. They had also been let down by the system. It's not just the families. Nevertheless, the fact remains something has gone seriously remains something has gone seriously wrong. Nine babies have died in circumstances the families believe were avoidable, and thus far they were avoidable, and thus far they have not had satisfactory answers.

Fundamentally, this is about trust. Trust needs to be restored. For that to happen, we first need to fully understand what went wrong. I understand that things can go wrong understand that things can go wrong in any profession. In my own father was an obstetrician, but unfortunately in obstetrics, the unfortunately in obstetrics, the consequences. The consequences can be devastating. I very much support be devastating. I very much support the words of the member, the honourable member for Godalming and Ash, who said, this is not about launching some kind of witch hunt.

The key thing is, which can actually get in the way of preventing further tragedies in the future, because what we need to focus on is avoiding

**** Possible New Speaker ****

blame and openly sharing and fixing problems. We must shine.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We must shine. A line on a light on past mistakes. In Sussex, Members of Parliament from across the House are Parliament from across the House are working together on this issue, and I look forward to continuing those conversations later in this week with my colleagues locally. And I would like. But the trust itself acknowledges that improvements are acknowledges that improvements are needed, and I welcome the work already underway to make maternity already underway to make maternity care safer.

But if this review is to succeed, if it is to carry the confidence of the very people it is confidence of the very people it is meant to serve, it must be guided by the right person. The government has appointed Baroness Amos to lead the review. She commands great respect and I have no question about her personal abilities or integrity. However, as I said, the key issue However, as I said, the key issue here is trust, and in that respect, she is not the right choice for Sussex.

So I'm asking the Secretary Sussex. So I'm asking the Secretary of State for health to listen to what the families are saying in Sussex that do not Ockenden be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sussex that do not Ockenden be appointed to oversee the review at University hospitals? Amanda thank you. I will.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I will. I thank you. For giving way and for highlighting the trust that Sussex.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sussex. Families. And indeed the families in Nottingham, Shrewsbury. And Telford. And the work. That she's done. Her report in 2022 laid out immediate and essential action. She

**** Possible New Speaker ****

deliberately didn't call them recommendations. They were actions that needed to be taken. They must. Be delivered in full. So does my.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Be delivered in full. So does my. Friend agree with me that we cannot. Lose any. More time.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And these actions need to happen. Alongside the inquiry that is now taking place. We can't afford to taking place. We can't afford to delay though. These families deserve to see these actions implemented now.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think. My work for her intervention for this Essex MP, and I very much agree this Essex MP, and I very much agree with her. Donna is a midwife herself and she has been personally involved and she has been personally involved with the families in Sussex. I understand that concerns. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

understand that concerns. Thank you. I will do this. I thank my honourable friend. For giving way and the points

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For giving way and the points that he's making about the choice of people to oversee, review or inquiry people to oversee, review or inquiry were echoed or reflect the points made to me by two of my constituents made to me by two of my constituents under its and Mandeep, who would have their daughter with them today were it not for failures at the Leeds General Infirmary. And the point they made to me is they want point they made to me is they want any review or inquiry to be clearly and demonstrably independent from people who have had a role in running the Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust in the past.

Would my honourable friend agree with me and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

agree with my constituents on this point, and share. My hope and trust that the. Secretary.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Secretary. Of State will weigh that request very heavily before he meets with families?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank them for his intervention. And yes, I think it sounds like a very similar situation. As I said this, this is situation. As I said this, this is all about trust. And so I understand that concerns have been raised about Donald's workload and the risk of relying too heavily on one person, but Donna has indicated that she is but Donna has indicated that she is willing to participate. I am sure that she wouldn't say so unless she were confident that she could give were confident that she could give this task the care and attention it needs.

Unless we restore trust, we risk further harm, further delays, risk further harm, further delays, and further grief. And that is something none of us wish to see. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Thank you, Lee Baron. Thank you, Madam.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, almost 15 years ago, my constituents, Lauren

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Trevelyan, lost her son, Ollie. She told me how the support just wasn't for. The parents, not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The parents, not. For the children. There's just not enough aftercare for people after such a loss. Not physically
22:35
Lee Barron Portrait Lee Barron MP (Corby and East Northamptonshire, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

after such a loss. Not physically and not mentally. To this day, Lauren is still waiting for. A. Response to her request for counselling. Lauren struggled through those dark moments, but now she's fighting for others. Lauren has been the driving force behind the baby loss awareness dropping. At

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Corbyn Library over the past week. This is. Absolutely something we. Should all be behind. We need to. Talk about this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We need to. Talk about this openly and honestly. We have to break the. Taboo because sadly, it's far more common. Than people.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Than people. Think and has already been said in this country. 13 babies a day die in this country. 13 babies a day die close to birth. When I talk about baby loss, I cannot do so without

**** Possible New Speaker ****

baby loss, I cannot do so without raising the courage and determination of numerous. Families in Corby. Who continue.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Who continue. To campaign and to fight for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

answers. Answers on rare childhood cancers and multiple. Miscarriages. deficiencies.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

deficiencies. You see, toxic. Waste was dumped in Corby and we

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Waste was dumped in Corby and we need answers. These families. Have questions that the local. Authority is not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Authority is not. Prepared to answer. In a response to the families solicitor. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to the families solicitor. The council said that the council understands its obligation. Of transparency. But considers the weight of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But considers the weight of public interest falls in favour of non-disclosure. When they were asked non-disclosure. When they were asked where the toxic waste was dumped, because. Families are concerned that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

those with rare childhood cancers. Of those with multiple miscarriages are there. On certain places in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

On certain places in. Corby where whistleblowers have come forward to turn around and say that toxic waste was dumped there?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that toxic waste was dumped there? It's not good enough for families the. Local authority. Continues to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Local authority. Continues to refuse to be transparent. And honest and answer. The family's. calls. For.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For. A. Public inquiry. We have to end the defensiveness. Of our public. Bodies. Either through.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bodies. Either through. Their own integrity, which it should be. Or by the Hillsborough Law, or,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Or by the Hillsborough Law, or, if needed, by a public inquiry. Enough of the defensiveness. It's time for answers.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We're determined to get them. And the people of Corby. Deserve to hear them. Yes. Bobby Dean.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bobby Dean. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the. Co-sponsors for bringing this today and for all colleagues. Powerful contributions so far contributions.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Are focussed on preventable. Baby loss and. Called for lessons to be learned. And for. More to be.
22:38
Bobby Dean Portrait Bobby Dean MP (Carshalton and Wallington, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

More to be. Done, which I fully support. But I I'd also like to take this opportunity to shine a light on the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

opportunity to shine a light on the many occasions where baby loss is not preventable. But I believe. There is still more that could. Be done.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

As a society. Earlier this year, my wife and I had. An. Early miscarriage. It was our first pregnancy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We're extremely excited when. We got that positive test result. And we're very quick to tell. All of our friends and family. We

**** Possible New Speaker ****

All of our friends and family. We had no negative signs ahead of our 12 week scan. But during that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Scan, it became quickly apparent that something wasn't right. We were asked whether or not it's possible

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that we could be nine weeks, and and. Shortly. After we were told that there was

**** Possible New Speaker ****

After we were told that there was no heartbeat, we were moved to another room where we asked all the questions. I'm sure that many asked. In this.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In this. anything. That we could do? Is there anything we could do. Differently next time? And.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Differently next time? And. We were. Reassured that actually this was extremely common, that there was nothing that we could have there was nothing that we could have done. And it happens around one in 4 or 5 people on on our journey home, we felt a bit silly for not knowing we felt a bit silly for not knowing that fact, but not being prepared for how common that type of miscarriage was. We wondered why we miscarriage was. We wondered why we didn't get told in our earlier antenatal appointments that this was a possibility, and we wondered as a possibility, and we wondered as well about why we hadn't heard that so much from friends and family, or said it in conversations on the TV.

said it in conversations on the TV. And after that, we pledged that we would talk about it more. After that moment, we were faced with some morbid choices. There was the natural miscarriage. There was the opportunity to take some pills, or there could be some sort of surgical procedure. And we were given a leaflet to think about it, and off we went. We didn't actually have the opportunity to make that choice, because shortly after we found out the miscarriage started to happen naturally.

And I can only say that I wasn't prepared for the level of brutality that that would entail. We were told that maybe it might be like period pains, but it was much more severe than that for my wife. And the volume of blood was unsettling, and I couldn't believe it was normal while it was happening. And we started googling around online for advice. And we were. We were lucky to find blogs by Tom Hayes and other organisations that people have said today that provided some reassurance, but we still ended up going today.

Indeed, because we were concerned about the blood loss, they did give us reassurance and we managed to go home with some medication and get through that. Then the follow up from that traumatic incident to In Our Lives was was simply a phone call. We had to report in that there was a negative pregnancy test a few weeks later, and that was the end of the support. And I must add, before we run out of time, that we were keen to get on.

And we have since got pregnant again and jumped that 12 week hurdle. And we are we are we now aware that that miscarriage chances are greatly diminished. So we are in a better place than we were, but we are still wondering about what more can be done to provide reassurance to people in that really troubling moment. And I asked the Minister whether we can make sure that we can record every miscarriage so we can get firmer statistics about how often this happens, whether or not we can provide access to people perhaps 24 hours a day, so that they don't have unsettling moments, wondering not whether or not we need to attend A&E, and whether actually that mental health support that is in place after a third miscarriage could actually be in place from that very first moment, because it is a deeply traumatic event for anybody to go through.

And I think we need

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to talk about it as a side, much prepared. OK. Nadia Whittome. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to start by thanking members for bringing this important debate, and bringing this important debate, and especially those colleagues who have spoken so bravely about their own. Experiences of loss and harm.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Experiences of loss and harm. No matter. How a baby. Dies or a wanted pregnancy ends, it is always deeply pregnancy ends, it is always deeply painful and traumatic for bereaved families. But their suffering is particularly exacerbated when the
22:42
Nadia Whittome Portrait Nadia Whittome MP (Nottingham East, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

particularly exacerbated when the loss of a baby could have been prevented. And tragically, I have constituents who know this. Only too well.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Only too well. Our city is at the centre of the largest maternity inquiry. In.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

NHS history, and a corporate manslaughter investigation due to. University. Hospitals, which. Have led to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Have led to. Hundreds. Of baby deaths and injuries. Hundreds of preventable.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Tragedies. Many families are still waiting for answers. Many have faced for answers. Many have faced contemptuous treatments, not just at the time of the loss or injury of their baby, but in the aftermath, too. They have been institutionally gaslit and lied to, robbed of so much and are still having to fight for their children, some have also faced abhorrent racism. I want to pay tribute to the Nottingham. Affected Families Group for their

**** Possible New Speaker ****

accountability. And change. And it's because of their

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And it's because of their tenacity that the review is happening at all. It's been a privilege to work with them, and privilege to work with them, and I've been deeply moved by their strength and selflessness in fighting not only for their own fighting not only for their own families, but for others, too. In the face of such. Appalling institutional failures and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

institutional failures and. Systematic neglect. I also want to thank Donna. Ockendon for agreeing to lead the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ockendon for agreeing to lead the review and for all of her work so far. I'm so grateful that families in Nottingham have such a champion in Nottingham have such a champion fighting their corner. Above all, there must be accountability for this scandal and lessons must be this scandal and lessons must be learnt so that no family has to go through such an avoidable tragedy again. And while standards of care, again. And while standards of care, at any rate, under new leadership have improved, they are still falling short and.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

falling short and. Further action must be taken. To ensure that parents and babies receive the care that they deserve. receive the care that they deserve. I welcome the government's launch of a National Maternity Investigation. To examine maternity and neonatal services across England. This rapid review will consolidate previous review will consolidate previous inquiries. Findings and recommendations with the aim of improving the quality and safety of maternity care. But I am concerned that families in Nottingham do not feel they were included in the meaningful way they were promised, and the government must not simply wait for the.

Outcome of this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

investigation before taking action. And I am certain. That the. Secretary of State will act on that, and I thank him. For his ongoing, genuine commitment to this. The Nottingham Affected Families The Nottingham Affected Families Group has been calling for the 22 national recommendations from the Shrewsbury and Telford Ockenden Shrewsbury and Telford Ockenden Reports to be implemented without delay, and they also want the role of oversight bodies, which are meant of oversight bodies, which are meant to hold trusts and healthcare professionals to account, be scrutinised.

The CQC must become a scrutinised. The CQC must become a more visible organisation and it must be able to bring prosecutions

**** Possible New Speaker ****

more than three years after the offence occurred. Because the current limit is. Far too short and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It's denying people even a semblance of justice. There's more,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

semblance of justice. There's more, so much more to say, but just in the tribute. To Nottingham. Charities founded by.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Charities founded by. Bereaved parents. Particularly Zephyrs and Forever. Stars.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Stars. And to say that these are organisations that are already doing the work supporting grieving families. But they're operating on shoestring budgets and they generally don't receive statutory generally don't receive statutory funding. We need to see that change. We need to see statutory funding increase and those. Allocating it to recognise that these are the charities that best place to provide those services, because they've already built relationships of trust within our communities.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Jim Shannon how much? First of all, can I commend all of those who all, can I commend all of those who have made contribution and told their personal stories and for their personal stories and for sharing with us how their lives have been touched by what has happened to them and how they try to move on. I them and how they try to move on. I think of my mother and Mona, 84 years of age, suffered many
22:46
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
-
-
years of age, suffered many miscarriages, and then my who's my speechwriter, obviously a very, very busy lady, but she had a miscarriage as well. And all these things tell me the personal stories that we all have. Madam Deputy Speaker, whether through our own families or through our extended family we live with. And 2023 in Northern Ireland, there were some 67 stillbirths, 80 infant deaths registered for those mums and dads. My heart simply aches at this stage. I would pay tribute to those friends and families, charities such as Psalms and so many others who rallied around those who are going through the unimaginable.

They support, they provide as phenomenal and as life changing, and that must be placed in record. I would also like to highlight the tremendous

**** Possible New Speaker ****

decision to help those dealing with grieving. Loss in the early stages, but there have been a building of a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baby loss certificate. A certificate does not mean. Less pain by any. Stretch of the. Imagination, but it does provide a validation.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That we. Like existed, was here, was real, and it's OK. To. Grieve.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For that real life and the promise and. Hope for tomorrow. That is part. Not now. We don't get other certificates for my colleague Robert Bond called for this in the House just last year. Well, their loss is felt in the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

fifth week, the 15th week of the magical 25th week. The fact remains. It's a loss. Once we have.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Once we have. Those who were able to put their words into. Song or in. A. Poem, or others who can release

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Poem, or others who can release grief with the planting of a tree so they can watch it grow and see that positive time. There are others who

**** Possible New Speaker ****

choose never to speak of it, and all of. These are valid. I often think of a very special constituent of mine who came to me constituent of mine who came to me some. 45 years after she had lost a baby, and asked me how to find where the remains have been buried. The the remains have been buried. The honourable member for Corby has just left the chamber. He referred to some of the things that are some of the things that are happening in his constituency and some of the things that happened in Belfast over those years would also Belfast over those years would also pose many, many questions.

I wish to call her story. She was part of the. Don't talk about.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A generation. And yet for all those years. know. Where her.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baby boy was resting as a baby was taken from her with no option to bury him when, as we both believe sincerely, she is safe in the arms

**** Possible New Speaker ****

sincerely, she is safe in the arms of Jesus, she. Wanted to know. Where he was on this earth, which is what the honourable member for is what the honourable member for Corby referred to. And I just passed before I ever found out, which.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is the all. Marked baby graves. It was then that I take great. Comfort in knowing. That she has finally met knowing. That she has finally met him, in glory. tell.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Because it shares a the life long grief that can be felt, and I believe it this to be today and the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

believe it this to be today and the ones that are tabled like this every year are not. Simply. Simply something that must be done.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

done. But there are a way to tell the diagnosis of. This world who grieved in silence

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This world who grieved in silence that they're not alone. Each life is so precious, and the loss must be acknowledged and felt. And on behalf acknowledged and felt. And on behalf of all those mums and dads of strength for today, and indeed not constituencies.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

constituencies. Across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, we all know, honour those Ireland, we all know, honour those little lives and the indelible. Little footprints left and hearts that the United Kingdom. You were

**** Possible New Speaker ****

here, you muttered. You were loved. And you're not forgotten.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

You're a smart snippet, Deputy Speaker, and I want to thank the three members for securing this debate this evening. It's one of debate this evening. It's one of profound importance. Not long after becoming an MP last year for South
22:49
Samantha Niblett Portrait Samantha Niblett MP (South Derbyshire, Labour)
-
-
Derbyshire, I was contacted by Hayley Johnson, who wanted to speak with me about her heartbreak. In April 2024, Hayley found out she was pregnant with her daughter Evelyn. Throughout her pregnancy, up until 26 weeks and six days, she never once saw a GP and was only given phone call appointments. On Tuesday, the 5th of August 2024, she was suffering with lower abdominal pains and called her GP surgery, who said her daughter was lying funny and prescribed codeine. On Friday the 9th of August she was at home and started losing blood.

It transpired that when she had called the GP, her placenta was actually rupturing. She lost over four pints of blood and nearly died. Luckily, the amazing staff at Burton Hospital got her daughter out safely and stabilised Hayley. But after 13 hours Evelyn sadly passed away with her mummy and daddy by her side. Hayley was informed by the hospital that if her GP had actually seen her in person and examined her, they would have noticed what was happening and her daughter would have stood a greater chance of survival.

Now because of the negligence she suffered. All she has left of Evelyn is a small box in her living room containing her ashes. I promised Hayley that at the right time, I would mention Evelyn's name in this chamber so that she would be remembered always in the records of Hansard. No parent ever imagines that they will outlive their child. The loss of a baby is a heartbreak. It is heartbreaking beyond words, and it's a grief that shatters hopes and dreams for the future. The hope of seeing that child grow, thrive, learn and love.

The joy of watching them take their place in the world. All of these are stolen in an instant, leaving a space in the family that can never be filled. Brothers and sisters lose the chance of a lifelong companion. Grandparents leaves the grandchild they longed to cherish and spoil. Baby loss touches everyone, and it takes so very much from so many my constituents and friends. Suman and Jim and Cliff have suffered the pain, a painful loss two of grandchildren. Lenny, who sadly passed away not long after a full term birth due to cord entanglement, and by who? They lost 18 weeks pregnancy for a reason no one knows.

Amidst deep sorrow, Lenny and Bi's incredible parents, Miriam, Suman and Jim's daughter and her husband Roy founded Lenny's Legacy and have published a book, an e-book about the physical recovery after a baby's death, which includes information on postpartum recovery, such as breastfeeding and lactation. And perhaps this is something our NHS could look to fund in hard copy for hospitals to give to parents that have suffered this loss. But soon after I became a Member of Parliament for South Derbyshire, the team and I were contacted by a couple, Alex and Kirsty Garner, who had suffered a loss themselves, and they felt that there wasn't the support that they needed, so they created that support with a group called Our Little Angels in Swadlincote, run by parents for parents, and my team and I were honoured to help them secure the funding for that.

I promised Alex, Alex and Kirsty and other parents who have walked this painful path that I would mention their babies names in this chamber and I may just go slightly over one minute. And for that I do apologise. I'm so sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it would be wrong of me not to call them by name. Now we have Hayley Johnson and John Haddon and baby Evelyn, Miriam and Roy Prestwich, and babies Lenny, and by Kirsty and Alex Garner, and baby Harry Ames and Graham Silcock and their babies Olivia, Teddy and Ava, Gina and Adam, deacon and baby Poppy, Jamie Long and Owen Archer.

And babies Arlo and Ava, Rebecca White's and Matthew Buckley and baby Jacob, Chelsea and Steve Cooper, and babies Flower and Blossom, Nicole Taylor and Peter Somervell and baby Aria, Rachel and Lee, Brushing and Brassington and baby Archie, Haley and Anthony Dore. And twins Finley and Darcey, Milly Garbutt and Luke Lenton and Baby Linton, Becky Wykes and Matt Buckley and baby Jacob, Katie Garner and Callum Charm and baby Charman, Kirsty and James Palmer and baby Palmer, Amy and Connor, Hilary and baby Noah, Bev and Oliver and baby Alister, Beth, Milnthorpe and Craig, Timbrel and baby Timbrel, Charlotte, Atherton and Callum, Kate and baby Wyatt, Beck, Barker and baby Alister, Beck and baby Maisie, Paula and Haddon and her baby Lorinda Brownhill and Adam Townsend and baby Alfie.

To every family who has lost a baby, your grief matters, your children matter. And as we light candles and wear ribbons this week, they do so to remember them and to remember another look and remember one another. And that love, even in loss, endures. Lizzie Collinge thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm speaking today with a number of hats on as the MP for Morecambe and Lonsdale, representing all my constituents who have lost babies and pregnancies as a mum of two children, and as a woman who has lost two much wanted.

Pregnancies herself, and I want to use my place

**** Possible New Speaker ****

here to shine a light on the pain families are feeling due to baby loss and the steps the government can take. And are taking.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And are taking. To help them from enforcing the duty of candour on public bodies, to giving bereavement leave to parents
22:54
Lizzi Collinge Portrait Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
-
-
giving bereavement leave to parents who have lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. First of all, I want to welcome the National Maternity Investigation and thank the Secretary of State for his attention to this and for listening to harmed families. I want to emphasise that on the whole, maternity care in this country is safe, but where it is not, strong action.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Must be taken. And I was relieved to see that my local trust, Morecambe Bay, will be local trust, Morecambe Bay, will be part of the national investigation, not least because of the experiences of my constituents, Ryan and Sarah, of my constituents, Ryan and Sarah, whose baby Ida was born in 2019 and who died seven days after she was who died seven days after she was born. I died because of failings in her care. Now I know, as Ryan and her care.

Now I know, as Ryan and Sarah do, that mistakes happen. Health care workers are human, but what feels so inhumane is the way. Ryan and Sarah have had to fight every step of the way to get the truth about their daughter's death, after the hospital trusts completely inadequate internal investigation inadequate internal investigation declared there to be no care issues after Ida's death was graded as moderate harm. It was Ryan and Sarah moderate harm. It was Ryan and Sarah themselves who had to approach a senior coroner and get to the full inquest, and it was only at that inquest, and it was only at that inquest that the trust actually accepted, five and a half years later, that their failings had led later, that their failings had led to Ida's death.

And the thing that breaks my heart is that these failings had already been identified failings had already been identified in the Kirkup report, which identified major failings previously, and these failings were previously, and these failings were meant to have been fixed. It was after the pretty awful birth of my first child that I first became involved in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Maternity advocacy. lot. Of activity in. The trust. In response.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The trust. In response. To. The Kirkup findings, and I do believe improvements were made. But there were two things that never there were two things that never went away and I think are still harming families to this day. The first thing I want to highlight is first thing I want to highlight is the ideological belief in that certain types of birth are. Superior to others, and we hear talk about normal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

normal. Birth, physiological birth. And the belief that this is somehow superior. To. harms.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

harms. People today. The second aspect is the organisational culture of a care organisation that responded to a baby's death. Not with care, not baby's death. Not with care, not with respect and not with humility, but with a gross failure to investigate, a gross failure to act

**** Possible New Speaker ****

with decency and kindness, and a gross. Lack of transparency.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lack of transparency. constituent. Who came to me. A few weeks ago at three. Her

**** Possible New Speaker ****

stepdaughter. Was born. Sleeping many, many years ago, and her husband and her had

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and her husband and her had recently. Found out that there that. Her stepdaughter. Was buried in a mass public

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Was buried in a mass public grave. They know the location that this baby was, where the baby was

**** Possible New Speaker ****

put to rest, and they really. Want to put a marker directly. On. The grave site. But because of local council rules, this is apparently not allowed. And they're puzzled, as am I, as to why marking one baby's death is somehow disrespectful to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

death is somehow disrespectful to the other babies who also lie in this mass public grave. So I'm. Working with my. Constituent to try.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Constituent to try. And address. This. The pain that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Families feel across our country. One Deputy Speaker. I'm glad to see is. Being recognised in this place today.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We cannot. Let more babies die preventable deaths. We cannot. Let those. Losses.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Losses. Go unacknowledged. And I. Want to thank the chamber.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Today, their work and Susan Murray. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank you to the honourable and right.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

honourable and right. Honourable. Members who have raised the debate, as well as those who have shared their own stories.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

who have shared their own stories. Every member here agrees that the tragedy of losing a. Child is one of the greatest anyone.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the greatest anyone. Can face. Yet this is an experience that, sadly, all too. Common with nearly half. Of the population. Have.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Have. Either experienced the loss of a baby themselves, or knowing someone. Who has.
22:58
Susan Murray Portrait Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Who has. It is with this deeply saddening thought in my mind that I would like to pay tribute to the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Tireless campaigning of. Louise Caldwell in Scotland after

**** Possible New Speaker ****

her experience of loss, she. Has. Influenced the Scottish. Government and their.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Strategy on baby loss. She has succeeded. In getting two baby lost. Units in Wishaw. Hospital in the constituency of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hospital in the constituency of the Honourable Member opposite for Motherwell, Wishaw and Carluke and another in Gilbert Beaton Hospital. With the support of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, Right

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Honourable Member for Orkney and. Shetland and our MSP colleague Beatrice Wishart. These dedicated.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

These dedicated. Facilities allow mothers, fathers and families to grieve the loss. Of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of. Their. Baby and the most dignified and compassionate environments. We can provide.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

We can provide. Madam Deputy Speaker, while I. Realise that this is a devolved matter, I am sure that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

matter, I am sure that. Everyone here. Today understands the need. For baby loss units.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For baby loss units. compassionate. Labour rooms away from the sounds

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Labour rooms away from the sounds of. Rapid arrivals. For those who. Experience delivering.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Experience delivering. A sleeping. Angel all over the UK while. we.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Must also look at prevention. I find it deeply concerning.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That we continue to see repeated feelings in maternity services. The Ockenden report and to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Shrewsbury and Telford and. The East Kent Inquiry. Highlighted systemic issues,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Highlighted systemic issues, including an inadequate. Equipment, crumbling maternity wards, weakened incident. Management

**** Possible New Speaker ****

wards, weakened incident. Management and slow triage of. Urgent cases. Furthermore. It's unacceptable that.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It's unacceptable that. When my Liberal Democrat colleague, the honourable member for North Shropshire, asked. The department about progress regarding. Implementing the recommendations of the report, the answer implied not

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the report, the answer implied not only that ministers could not confirm delivery. But had no mechanism.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But had no mechanism. To measure any progress made, and that is simply. Not. Good enough. As the member, the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Good enough. As the member, the honourable member for Rossendale and Darwen highlighted. We need a national strategy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That extends across all. Four nations. With clear baselines to ensure

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With clear baselines to ensure that mothers and babies receive the care they need and deserve. We need

**** Possible New Speaker ****

clear and transparent measures. To ensure that standards are. Being met. And to identifying. When.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

They are not. Because ultimately this is about protecting. Women and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

babies. Thank you. Sarah Smith. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. opportunity. For.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For. Those affected by baby. Loss to remember. And commemorate their babies. Lives and to highlight.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This deeply important subject. I'm glad to see we are doing. Just that in this chamber, and it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Just that in this chamber, and it has not been possibly the best of our chamber this evening. I particularly like to pay tribute to the members. For. Sherwood Forest and Rossendale

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sherwood Forest and Rossendale and Darwen for their very moving. Tributes that started. This evening's debate. Every year
23:01
Sarah Smith Portrait Sarah Smith MP (Hyndburn, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

This evening's debate. Every year in the UK, as we have heard. Thousands of families are. Affected by the heartbreak of baby loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is a grief. That is often invisible to the outside world. And. Too often a silent trauma. But as we've heard those.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

we've heard those. Living with it, the impact, the impact is lifelong. It touches every aspect of their being.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

being. Emotional, physical. Psychological and spiritual. And

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Psychological and spiritual. And the. Structures must be in place. For those who. Need. Us, that need the support. Following the loss of their baby.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Following the loss of their baby. In my constituency. Of. Hyndburn and Haslingden, the staff at East Lancashire Hospitals. NHS trusts.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

NHS trusts. Do a fantastic job and they are. Signed up to the National Bereavement Pathways. But as we have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

requirement. And I hope that the Secretary of State will. Consider making. This a statutory.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This a statutory. Requirement so that access to that psychological support is not a postcode lottery. But with rising.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

postcode lottery. But with rising. Demands on maternity services. Additional staffing is. Required so that every family who experiences both.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

experiences both. Birth trauma and baby loss can get the support that they need. Thanks to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thanks to. Some work that was undertaken by a number of leading experts at the University of Lancashire, including

**** Possible New Speaker ****

my brilliant constituent who is the perinatal perinatal mental health lead at East Lancs. Hospital Trust.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hospital Trust. evidence. Based birth and reproductive trauma debrief service that had.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

trauma debrief service that had. Been designed to ensure that every family could receive this. Support. Across East Lancashire, and it is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Across East Lancashire, and it is ready for implementation. However, limited resources and staffing means this. Out and I hope.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Out and I hope. That events like today and this renewed focus from the Secretary of State on this might change.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

State on this might change. That, so. That this enhanced service. Can be offered to. Give the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Care and support that families desperately need. Up and down. The country with competing uses for maternal funds. Unfortunately,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for maternal funds. Unfortunately, the trauma. Mental health and bereavement support often gets overlooked. With greater importance being given simply.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To the physical health. Holistic

**** Possible New Speaker ****

baby loss trauma services make a profound, profound difference, and we must recognise that supporting. Families through baby loss is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Families through baby loss is absolutely essential care. So I urge the Secretary. ensure.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The highest. Possible level of care in. Maternity services. Including in the. Devastating circumstances.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Devastating circumstances. Of miscarriage or baby loss, to ensure that the. Support is. There. For everyone.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For everyone. it. Bell Ribeiro-Addy thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And I know this debate is not an easy one for those of us participating and for the campaigners, activists and bereaved

**** Possible New Speaker ****

campaigners, activists and bereaved parents who are listening. But it is nevertheless vital. And I'm very thankful. That it's. Taking place.
23:04
Bell Ribeiro-Addy Portrait Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP (Clapham and Brixton Hill, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Taking place. I want to begin by commending all of those, like my friends who led this. Debate and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Debate and. In this House and beyond, who. Found the. Courage. To stand. Up and speak about their

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Up and speak about their experience as a baby loss. I know from personal experience just how difficult that is to do, to reopen that wound and to relive that pain that wound and to relive that pain in public. Every story of baby loss told and not told is worthy of our compassion and respect. And I say that because after the occasions I've shared my own experience, I've been that time and again with questions. So how long ago was it? How far along were you, and how do you know that racism was a factor? Perhaps some of those questions were asked in innocence, but let me tell you how it made me feel.

As if people were measuring my loss, weighing my grief, and deciding how much pain I was allowed to feel. And as if there was a scale for sorrow. And it's not one sided. I've spoken to women who, after hearing my experience, have opened up about their own and ended by saying that their own experience wasn't as bad because mine was a late term stillbirth and theirs was a miscarriage. And that broke my heart, because it's not true to all those who experience baby loss in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

whatever form. Your experience. Matters. Your. Grief matters. And your. Loss matters. And that's why.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And that's why. Baby Loss Awareness Week is. About all. Forms of pregnancy and baby loss. It's not the loss Olympics. Whether It's not the loss Olympics. Whether it's an abortion. Someone had to have an ectopic pregnancy, a late or early miscarriage, a stillbirth, or early miscarriage, a stillbirth, or a neonatal death. Every single one of these experiences deserves recognition and care. And no one, absolutely no one, has the right to quantify your loss. And for those of us that have shared our stories, we don't do it for validation or for pity.

We share them so that others who have endured baby loss know that who have endured baby loss know that they are not alone, no matter when or how they lost their baby. And we or how they lost their baby. And we share them as a call to action. Because in a country like ours, the figures surrounding maternal mortality and baby loss, she'd

**** Possible New Speaker ****

mortality and baby loss, she'd never, ever be acceptable. I I'm Deputy Speaker. Earlier this year, I led a debate. In recognition. Of Black Maternal Health Week,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of Black Maternal Health Week, during which I highlighted the. Racial. Disparity in maternity care. I highlighted. That it had gone.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Down black and mixed heritage. Women are now three times more likely to die from during pregnancy and childbirth, down from five times and childbirth, down from five times when I first originally launched the Appg on Black Maternal Health. And Asian women are twice as likely.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Regretfully, this decline in disparity is not necessarily something to celebrate, nor is. It due. To improvements in maternity care for black women. But it's because the UK's overall maternity mortality figures are rising. More women and babies are dying in the UK now than in the last two decades. Black women are experiencing likely even further deterioration. The latest findings from embrace reveal a widening divide in neonatal death rates between the UK's most and least deprived areas. Black and minority

**** Possible New Speaker ****

ethnic people are 2.5 times more likely to live in relative poverty. And 2.2.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Times more likely to live in deep poverty. In plain terms, poverty and deprivation are costing newborn lives, so the combination of lives, so the combination of socioeconomic inequalities and institutional racism has a double impact on black women and their impact on black women and their babies experiences of maternity care and its outcomes. The data also shows a sharp rise in stillbirths shows a sharp rise in stillbirths amongst babies of Asian heritage, and black babies remain twice as likely to be stillborn.

Urgent, targeted action is needed to tackle these deaths and health inequalities these deaths and health inequalities and prevent avoidable deaths. The new report from the Health and Social Care Committee on Black

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Maternal Health, shows that the outcomes in maternity. Care are shaped. By systemic failings in leadership training, data collection and accountability. Now, the Secretary of State will know that when the government promised to find a way forward, I was proud when the government made it a manifesto government made it a manifesto commitment to set a target to end disparity in maternity care. I was proud of that. This hasn't happened. proud of that. This hasn't happened. The NHS ten year plan has come and gone without a specific plan for racial equality.

Racial disparities racial equality. Racial disparities in maternity care. If that wasn't the time to announce a target, when will it be?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, Amanda Hack. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And I thank the honourable members for Roslindale. And I went. For a. Single man and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Single man and. Ashe for securing. This important debate. During Baby Loss Awareness Week a.
23:08
Amanda Hack Portrait Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baby Loss Awareness Week a. Debate to give those who've that. Voice, the feeling they're not alone. Where I had my son 18 years

**** Possible New Speaker ****

alone. Where I had my son 18 years ago, I was lucky to have the support of the mums. During. Those first tricky years with our

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Those first tricky years with our babies. However, sadly for three of. Those mums, they'd. miscarriage. For them, they have the support

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For them, they have the support from each of us. It wasn't a silent subject. They could talk. And share about their loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And share about their loss. However, at the time I remember thinking how their partners. How they were coping with that loss without.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

loss without. Having that same support network. It's so important that both parents have the support. They.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Need after such devastating bereavement, which is why organisations like Ashby Sons United in my constituency.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in my constituency. Are ensuring that Support. Ashby stands as a men's football team. Who suffered the devastating loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

suffered the devastating loss. Of a child or a miscarriage. One of the members. Told me at a recent event anything.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

anything. The lads know how I feel. The football isn't always good, but the football isn't always good, but the friendship and the support. I get from them is what I cherish in this debate. It's the experience that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

matter, and my constituent, Sarah. Has asked me to. Share these words. Losing a baby is.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Losing a baby is. An. Incredibly difficult and isolating time to. Then. Learn that our baby's death was. Preventable is just.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Preventable is just. Soul destroying. Feelings of guilt and regrets. On whether it could have been whether it could have been prevented. Mistakes were made during my pregnancy. Incorrect measurements were recorded. Follow up scans were

**** Possible New Speaker ****

were recorded. Follow up scans were not arranged. Our care was mismanaged. The hospital be. Admitted that these.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Admitted that these. Scans had happened and measurements were recorded accurately. We may have had a different outcome. I don't want to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

different outcome. I don't want to miss our exciting and vulnerable times of our lives. We put our trust and care. Into the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Into the. Hands of strangers, trusting. That we will be treated with the. Dignity and respect.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Dignity and respect. That we deserved. Sarah stressed the need to. Drive changes in teaching and. Learning to make maternity. And childbirth safer.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And childbirth safer. For all. Sarah's welcome the rapid review and its potential to bring out. Much needed changes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Much needed changes. To. Maternity care across the UK. However. Sarah has also stressed the need for a trauma informed. Approach.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Approach. Of this consultation. Those who have experienced this trauma will

**** Possible New Speaker ****

need support to engage. Can the Secretary of. State say. More. About trauma will be considered during this review? I also welcome the rapid review. My constituents could have their. Babies in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Nottingham, Leicester or in Derby. As a. councillor. By. Some health scrutiny and the saddest.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Report I requested was the one about maternity, healthcare and baby loss. Nottinghamshire.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Nottinghamshire. I wanted to understand the. Situation in Leicestershire. We received a report on babies who died in childbirth and a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in childbirth and a. Six year period been seven babies. Some families who dealt with that devastating. Loss. However, in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

However, in. Line with statistics. Around like term loss. Six of the. Mothers were Black or Asian.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Asian. Data indicates that neonatal mortality rates. For Black. And Asian. Babies are over 50% higher than

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Babies are over 50% higher than among. White babies. I asked the ministers to set. Out. In their response how they would

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In their response how they would work towards eliminating these stark inequalities on maternity and neonatal outcomes based on. Ethnicity and deprivation. I have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ethnicity and deprivation. I have considered a number of courts around maternity and have a few

**** Possible New Speaker ****

reflections. Maternity. Healthcare. care. I've heard phrases like.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I've heard phrases like. Pregnancy isn't an illness. Giving birth is natural, but I've also heard those mothers who felt. They weren't.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Listened. To and they felt their powerlessness. Every stillbirth. Neonatal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Neonatal. Death, or infant death of. A child is a tragedy. And we must make efforts to prevent it happening. Together, I. Know we.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Will fight for justice for those that deserved. Just a little bit more time. Jo White.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Jo White. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Tonight I want to talk about an inspirational. in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in. My Bassetlaw constituency. When the scan. Showed that there was no

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Showed that there was no heartbeat, she was sent home to wait. Two weeks until the delivery of her baby. She remembers asking. How.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

How. Do I collect my baby? She said she said the thought of flushing it down the toilet was.
23:12
Jo White Portrait Jo White MP (Bassetlaw, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Something she did not want. To comprehend. With no information, Laura was left feeling. Isolated and alone, and she had.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Isolated and alone, and she had. To rely. On what she had to hand, resorting to using a. Sieve and a plastic takeaway food

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sieve and a plastic takeaway food box. She said people were given. A test tube. To collect urine. Samples.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Samples. baby. I was given nothing. I was angry.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

During her recovery, she channelled her anger and used her engineering skills to. Design a. Device that she has

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Design a. Device that she has named a miscarriage cradle. It hooks onto a toilet. Seat and collects and seals to remain so. That they. Can be.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can be. Taken safely. To hospital. Her mission. Is for every woman.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To have better control and. miscarriage. At home. Laura has. Begun actively promoting.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The miscarriage cradle within the NHS, and the University of Liverpool was the first to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

was the first to. Adopt it. recommendations. Of the 2023 Pregnancy.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of the 2023 Pregnancy. Lost review was for NHS. Trust to. Provide women. Experiencing a pregnancy loss.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

pregnancy loss. With a compassionate clinical. Care. Kit, and the. Miscarriage cradle ticked all the. Boxes. In the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In the. Tough world of. Hospital finances. They also. Stated that. Trust will save money because when women.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

when women. Have the. Option of. Managing a miscarriage at home, they are also. Staffing and bed. Space.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Cost savings. So far. 13 trusts have adopted. The miscarriage cradle.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The miscarriage cradle. And the 14th has just got approval. I want to quote the Northern Lincolnshire and. Goole Hospital Trust.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Goole Hospital Trust. Going through a miscarriage is one of the hardest. Experiences that anyone can face.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Experiences that anyone can face. It's raw, painful and often feels isolating. This miscarriage kit.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This miscarriage kit. Is more than just a product. It's a small. But powerful way to help women hold on to their.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Dignity in a moment that. Can feel so overwhelming. These

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can feel so overwhelming. These words. Define Laura's mission. But lowest focus is for every NHS hospital trusts have miscarriage.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Cradles in stock. Her ask of me has been to raise her, raise awareness of her cradle, but also to ask that she can meet the Secretary of State so that she the Secretary of State so that she can discuss this with him. And she also asked my colleagues to sign my also asked my colleagues to sign my early day motion on baby loss kits. Finally, could I take this opportunity to thank Bassetlaw

**** Possible New Speaker ****

opportunity to thank Bassetlaw charity? Joel. The complete package. For their. For their support for families

**** Possible New Speaker ****

experiencing crisis and for their fundraising, that initiative. That means that there. Is now. A room for parents at Bassetlaw

**** Possible New Speaker ****

A room for parents at Bassetlaw Hospital at this very difficult time

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that. Members. Take their lead from the honourable member for Bassetlaw, so honourable member for Bassetlaw, so that I can get everybody in? If members could try to keep it to three minutes, that would be very helpful. Adam Thompson.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

helpful. Adam Thompson. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. And can I also thank all honourable members this evening, particularly those who secured the particularly those who secured the debate. But so many have shared their incredibly powerful stories. We've heard from several honourable members this evening about the failures at Nottingham University Hospitals. NHS trust in keeping

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hospitals. NHS trust in keeping 2019. My constituents. Carl Everson and Kylie Wesson were expecting. Their daughter, Lady Bird. During pregnancy, Karl and Kylie were told that Lady Bird had. Kylie were told that Lady Bird had.
23:16
Adam Thompson Portrait Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)
-
-
A fatal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

she was incompatible with life, that if she survived the pregnancy. She would live only.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

She would live only. Briefly and would do so in severe pain. Faced with this devastating prognosis, Carl and Kylie made the agonising decision to end their pregnancy. Two weeks after Lady Bird's funeral, they had an

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bird's funeral, they had an appointment where they were told that the long term culture test. Showed a normal. Female karyotype.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Female karyotype. There was no evidence. Of potatoes. Lady bird had been a healthy baby.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

baby. Colin Colley later learned that Lady Bird's death was not inevitable. It was. The result of a misdiagnosis. And a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And a. Failure to follow national. Guidelines around abortion. The Abortion Act 1967 requires two

**** Possible New Speaker ****

doctors to. Form an opinion in good faith. But Carl and Carly learned through their investigations that through their investigations that the second medical practitioner was at best used as a rubber stamping exercise. This failure led to the exercise. This failure led to the loss of a very much loved and wanted baby child. Carl and Carly have baby child. Carl and Carly have spent six years fighting Frances, six years navigating a system that should have protected them.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

should have protected them. Today, they. Continue their fight for answers and are working every. Day to ensure that guidelines around abortion are.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that guidelines around abortion are. Properly followed. By doctors and laws updated if

**** Possible New Speaker ****

required. The second family I've. Worked closely with on this. Issue over. The past year. Have been the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Have been the. Sarah and. Tony Sissons did not joins. Us in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The gallery today, but. Sarah and. Tony mourn every day for the child and indeed the man that Ryan child and indeed the man that Ryan could have become. Ryan was born healthy, but just three days after his birth.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

at. Nottingham City Hospital caused him to suffer a catastrophic. Brain injury.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Brain injury. Consequently, Sarah and Tony were told that Ryan would never be able to walk or talk. Sarah was aged just

**** Possible New Speaker ****

19 years old and. Was. Given. No. Help to navigate her drastically changed life. Instead, the citizens were handed a leaflet about abortion adoption. Well, I understand that leaflet is still framed on the wall leaflet is still framed on the wall in their House, and Ryan told me today about how he learned to march in the C code. That's and he showed

**** Possible New Speaker ****

in the C code. That's and he showed me actually in Westminster Hall, and he was good at it. So he did a pretty good. Job of walking and talking.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Job of walking and talking. As far as I was concerned. Last month, Ryan turned. 18, but he didn't go out with his friends to. The.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The. Pub to celebrate. He isn't. Applying to universities or doing an apprenticeship. Sarah and Tony are preparing

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sarah and Tony are preparing their home so Ryan could live with them for the rest of their lives. Sarah gave up her career to care for Ryan. She spent his childhood fighting to get that care, battling with the NHS and local authorities, attending endless appointments and mourning the big life milestones that Ryan never really got to reach. Ryan is the oldest child being considered in the Nottingham Ockenden review of the nearly 2500 families affected, Ryan was the first child.

Ryan should not have been the first of thousands. The failures of Nottingham University Hospitals Trust should have been learned long ago, but they weren't. Those responsible have not yet been held accountable. Ryan should have had the chance to have enjoyed a happy, healthy childhood. Ladybird should be with her parents, far away from a House of Commons debate on baby loss. Despite the efforts made by May today by myself and colleagues, Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't believe it's possible to put into words how the failings of NHS trust two profoundly impacted so many lives in my community.

I hope

**** Possible New Speaker ****

deeply that this government is going to provide the justice they deserve. And with a formal three minute time limit. Amanda Martin.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

time limit. Amanda Martin. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak today about baby loss on behalf of those affected that I love
23:19
Amanda Martin Portrait Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
-
-
behalf of those affected that I love and know and those that I do not, because it's a tragedy that touches far too many families in Portsmouth, North and across our country. We have heard today how many, how each year in England and Wales, tragically, around 2500 babies are stillborn and a further thousand hundred die within their first year of life. But Madam Deputy Speaker, behind every statistic is a grieving family mother, father, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and siblings whose world has changed forever.

In Portsmouth, around 2000 babies are born each year and while outcomes have improved, we still see the deep inequalities that drive baby loss. Babies born in our most deprived communities are twice as likely to die before their first birthday than those in the wealthiest. Many of our local maternity teams are working tirelessly to change this, and at my own hospital, Queen Alexandra, the Maternity Services has earned a Unicef Baby Friendly Gold Award and National HSA Digital and Parliamentary Award for Innovation in Compassionate Care.

Proof of the possibility and dedication and excellence that cannot, can and does exist. But Madam Deputy Speaker, it must not be a postcode lottery. It should be national and available for all. We have the knowledge to prevent many of these tragedies. We have inquiries with recommendations and actions early, informed and accessible on antenatal care. Tackling health in pregnancy. Supporting maternal mental health, accountability, transparency, openness and addressing inequalities and listening. Madam Deputy Speaker to the women and families about their experiences and making sure their birth choice is the right choice for mum and baby, free from pressure and prejudice.

And Madam Deputy Speaker services must be properly funded, staffed and joined up and at times when nothing can be done and lost does occur. Compassionate bereavement support is vital. Parents tell me the small acts of care, a quiet room and midwife who listens. A support group for all the family. The use of language to say what baby loss is, a baby loss and not a miscarriage, and the opportunity to be talk and be heard can all make the difference. Yet bereavement, like many maternity provisions, varies widely and too many families are left to cope alone and often in silence.

So this week, as we mark Baby Loss Awareness Week, we must stand with every parent who lights a candle, remembers a name, or hold in their heart the baby they never got to take home, or who wasn't physically in their lives forever, but will always be a part of their family. To those families I know we all say you are not alone. Your babies are not forgotten and your courage gives meaning to this work and our debate. This is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, as a government, we must work with local NHS leaders, public health teams, charities.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as a government, we cannot talk about breaking down barriers to opportunity if we do not do this in our maternity services. Madam Deputy Speaker, baby loss is not inevitable. It is a challenge that as a government, we can and must action.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yes, Sureena Brackenridge. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I must give my thanks to every member across the House. Who has shared. Their personal experiences and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Their personal experiences and also of their constituents as well, and also to the families that we have in the gallery. Listening to tonight's debate. It is clear from tonight's debate. It is clear from what has been shared so, so deeply that not every family faces the same

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that not every family faces the same risk or receives the same care. The latest embrace UK data as already. Shared.
23:23
Sureena Brackenridge Portrait Mrs Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Shared. But I feel that I must continue to. To share.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This and repeat this, because it is so deeply concerning that babies of black ethnicity are more than of black ethnicity are more than twice as likely to be stillborn as babies of white ethnicity. Neonatal mortality rates among Black and Asian babies are over 50% higher, and babies born to mothers in the most deprived areas. Are twice as likely to die in the first month of life as those in the least deprived. So access to bereavement care is also unequal.

The National Bereavement Care Pathway sets out what good care should look like, but voluntary adoption, stretched staff and a lack of time for training mean too many families miss out. And when mental health support is needed, it is even harder to access. Over 80% of bereaved parents report needing psychological support, yet only half are able to access it through the NHS. Fathers and partners in particular are far. Too often forgotten. So I take this opportunity to thank the Secretary of State for being here in the House to listen to this debate, and I ask for the government commit to eliminating inequalities in maternal and neonatal outcomes based on ethnicity and deprivation.

Will it ensure every bereaved family, wherever they live, whatever their background, can access high quality bereavement and mental health care? And will every NHS professional who supports these families be given the training and time that they need to do so with confidence and compassion? I welcome new government steps, including extended baby loss certificates and improvements to parental bereavement leave under the Employment Rights Bill. But like members across the House and families across the country, we are calling for compassionate,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

consistent and equitable care as every bereaved family deserves. Yeah. Michael Payne.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Michael Payne. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise today during Baby Loss Awareness Week to pay tribute to the Awareness Week to pay tribute to the far too many families in Gedling and Nottinghamshire who have suffered the devastating loss of their babies the devastating loss of their babies in circumstances that were entirely avoidable. They place their trust in a system that should have protected a system that should have protected them and that system failed them. The Ockenden review into maternity services in Nottingham is now services in Nottingham is now supporting 2500 families who have been affected by neonatal deaths, been affected by neonatal deaths, injuries, stillbirths and maternity deaths.

Madam Deputy Speaker, many of them were failed by the NMC,
23:26
Michael Payne Portrait Michael Payne MP (Gedling, Labour)
-
-
of them were failed by the NMC, failed by the GMC, failed by the QC and failed by our NHS. Regulation must be overhauled and accountability must improve the mothers and fathers who have come forward in Gedling and Nottinghamshire have shown extraordinary dignity, courage and perseverance in the face of heartbreak that most of us can barely begin to comprehend. And yet, even in the face of unspeakable loss, each and every family I have met in Gedling and Nottinghamshire, who have lost a child or suffered harm during birth, has reminded me that lie always shines brightest in the darkest places, in the depths of their grief, their pursuit of truth and change honours their children's memory and stands as a beacon of tremendous humanity and hope.

I want to take a moment to pay a special tribute to the incredible charities, volunteers and support organisations who walk alongside bereaved families day in, day out. They bring comfort where it is needed most and we all owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. And in speaking of courage and compassion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to take a moment to thank my friend and neighbour, the Member of Parliament for Sherwood Forest, Michelle Welsh, long before she entered this place, Michelle worked side by side with Nottinghamshire families through years of anguish and struggle, standing shoulder to shoulder with them when few others would.

Just 37 days ago, she suffered her own loss. The passing, her verbal of dad, who taught her to fight always against any injustice wherever she found it. Just days after losing her dad, she was back in Parliament meeting bereaved maternity families. In thanking Michelle for her leadership

**** Possible New Speaker ****

today. I want to say. The honourable gentleman. Will know that we do not refer to members know that we do not refer to members by their name in this place. That's the third time he referred to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the third time he referred to the honourable member for Sherwood Forest by her name. My apologies, Madam Deputy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker, in thanking the member for Sherwood Forest for her leadership today. I want to say this. Her dad today. I want to say this. Her dad would have been so incredibly proud to sit in the gallery today to see his little girl in this chamber, his little girl in this chamber, using the privilege of her platform to fight for those who have been failed and suffered the most failed and suffered the most unimaginable loss. May I also pay tribute to the families who have campaigned for years for change and justice? We owe you far more than sympathy.

We owe them justice. We

**** Possible New Speaker ****

sympathy. We owe them justice. We owe them truth. Madam Deputy Speaker, the. Honourable gentleman has had more. Than three minutes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

more. Than three minutes. And I do want the Front Benchers to have some time to respond. Dave Robertson. You, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I

**** Possible New Speaker ****

You, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I place on record my thanks to the co-sponsors of today's debate for bringing it forward, but especially to all those members who shared their personal experiences. It's been a very difficult debate for, I
23:29
Dave Robertson Portrait Dave Robertson MP (Lichfield, Labour)
-
-
been a very difficult debate for, I think, many of us, because this is such an important but such a difficult subject. Like many members today, I am here to speak on behalf of some of my constituents. In my case, Tim and Hannah. Tim and Hannah lost their son, Zak, when he was just 14 hours old. Sacks inquest found that there was a total and complete failure in his care. I genuinely do not know how parents can receive an inquest verdict like that and find the strength to put themselves back together.

But Tim and Hannah did, and I'm sure actually that's something that we will see from many of the people in the galleries today, is that they found that strength to put themselves back together and start looking for what can come next. Zach's story is that. He caught an infection called Group B strep as he was born. It's incredibly common for about 20 to 40% of women have it on any general day, and it is generally symptomless in adults. But if it passes from mum to baby during Labour, it can be fatal.

On average, one baby a week in the UK dies of a strep B infection. Group A Group B strep is common in mums and highly dangerous to babies, but the UK does not routinely test for it during pregnancy. Instead, we rely on risk factors to identify expecting mums who have it. And too often, as in Zak's case, that approach isn't working. I'm pleased that there is a major trial, the GB S3 trial underway, looking at whether we'd be better off routinely testing, and it's due to report later on this year.

It's no overstatement to say it's a once in a lifetime opportunity again, to look at our approach to the safety of babies in this situation. I really hope that that trial report, and it does move us to a situation where we can routinely test for this during pregnancy. The gold standard test cost just £15 and it can save lives, potentially a life a week. We must do all that we can to protect babies like Zac, and ensure that no more

**** Possible New Speaker ****

parents go through. What? Seven Hannah. Patsy. Thank you madam. Thank you. Sean Woodcock.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Sean Woodcock. I thank you very much, mum. It's a real privilege to. this.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Debate. Particularly after so many powerful and profound interventions and speeches from across the House.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and speeches from across the House. I rise to share the testimony of. A constituent. Who has endured an experience.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Who has endured an experience. That affects many. Families. Yet receives very. Little attention. Hypoxic

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Little attention. Hypoxic ischaemic encephalopathy. Or high. Her son.
23:31
Sean Woodcock Portrait Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Survived an HIV event. During his birth. HIV is a brain injury caused by a lack of oxygen or. Blood.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Blood. Flow, which can lead to developmental delays, intellectual and physical disabilities, and tragically.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

tragically. In one on five cases, death. Some hidden. Until.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Until. School age. My constituent had never heard.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of HIV at the time, and nor had I prior to her. Contacting me. But it is an all too common

**** Possible New Speaker ****

condition, affecting 3 to 4 out. Of every 1000 births. In her son's case, it resulted.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In her son's case, it resulted. In mild cerebral palsy. She was. Supported by. A wonderful charity called peeps. Who highlight.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

That families affected by. HIV often feel that they. Don't belong. In a.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In a. Baby Loss Week space. Many of these families experienced birth trauma, PTSD, and complicated grief. While charities like peaks offer support to anybody like peaks offer support to anybody affected, NHS mental support can often be restricted to just the mother. This leaves fathers and mother. This leaves fathers and partners who are also deeply affected to cope alone. Support must

**** Possible New Speaker ****

affected to cope alone. Support must be and should be whole. Family support. Peaks also emphasised the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

significant gaps in long. Term support. Especially for families whose children survive. But.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Face lifelong severe disabilities. They are left to navigate complex needs for years after the initial intensive care

**** Possible New Speaker ****

illness. The trauma is compounded. For families whose event. May have been avoidable.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

May have been avoidable. A study taking place in Finland between 2005 and 2024 suggested that between 2005 and 2024 suggested that a fifth of all such cases could have been prevented, or at least could

**** Possible New Speaker ****

have benefited from preventative measures. This compounds the trauma. Of affected families and underscores the importance.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

underscores the importance. Of absolute. Honesty and systemic learning. Additionally.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

It is not always recorded consistently in NHS systems or statistics. Making it.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Making it. Harder to advocate for policy disparities. And.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And. Outcomes, as we know exist in stillbirth and neonatal deaths. We must listen to brave parents like my constituent.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

constituent. And fantastic charities. Like. We must ensure that he is no longer misunderstood or unheard of in conversations about baby loss. And we owe these families

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And we owe these families recognition, compassionate care, and a commitment. To. Address the lack. Of consistent data that makes it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of consistent data that makes it so hard for them. To advocate for change. Which brings us to the front

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Which brings us to the front bench contributions, perhaps in the region of eight minutes each Alison Bennett.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bennett. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the. Honourable and Right Honourable members for Rossendale and Darwen, Godalming and Ash and Sherwood Godalming and Ash and Sherwood Forest must be thanked not just for bringing this debate to Mark Baby bringing this debate to Mark Baby Loss Awareness Week, but for their tireless advocacy to improve maternity services across the United
23:35
Alison Bennett Portrait Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
maternity services across the United Kingdom. Work that I know they've been carrying out for many years. The pain of baby loss is multifaceted. Not only does it involve the unimaginable grief that accompanies losing a baby, but the emotional and psychological suffering that comes with facing the prospect of a life without your child, a future completely different to the one you had hoped for. Losing a baby can be loud, fast and chaotic, but it can also happen quietly, almost unnoticeable.

Some parents arrive home from the hospital to a wardrobe full of baby clothes, piles of new born toys but an empty cot, whilst other expectant mothers may wake up in the morning excited to be another day closer to their baby's arrival, only to find out that it was not meant to be. Half of adults in the UK said that they, or someone they know, had experienced pregnancy or baby loss, and according to Sands, 13 babies die shortly before, during or soon after birth every day in the UK.

These families, as we have heard tonight, have to try and pick up the pieces, maintain their relationships, work, continue with daily commitments, all whilst tackling the emotional and often physical trauma of their experiences. They often walk this path alone, feeling like there is nobody that they can speak to about their indescribable grief, that they shouldn't speak about it like they themselves have sometimes failed. This is not the case, and. No woman should have to suffer in silence. In the case of my constituents, Hannah and Simon.

Not only did they have to come to terms with the fact they would not be taking their baby boy, Austin, home from the hospital, they had to face the reality that this tragedy was avoidable, that their baby would have survived had the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

trust recognised and responded to concerns identified in the foetal and maternal monitoring. And Hannah. And.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And. Simon are not the only ones connecting with other parents in Sussex, resulting. In.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In. Them hearing stories from other families whose experiences were families whose experiences were concerningly similar to their own. Between 2019 and 2023, the Between 2019 and 2023, the University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust paid £58 million in compensation for 60 medical negligence claims related to negligence claims related to maternity and obstetric care. This is the second highest amount of is the second highest amount of compensation and third highest number of claims across all NHS number of claims across all NHS trusts in England.

This, and Hannah and Simon's story points to a larger systemic problem at the heart of maternity care. It was clear then, as it is now, that successive governments have been asleep at the wheel in relation to maternity care,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

wheel in relation to maternity care, and it's the families at the. Heart. Of this that. Pay the price. Families like Hannah and Simon's,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Families like Hannah and Simon's, whose baby Austin, should have been starting school next year if things had been different, like Hannah and Simon's daughter, just three when her little brother died. Who should

**** Possible New Speaker ****

not have to continually ask us why. Her friends got to. Bring their siblings home? And

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bring their siblings home? And she had to say goodbye instead. This she had to say goodbye instead. This family. Like too many across the country, deserved better. Now they themselves are calling for change so themselves are calling for change so no one else misses out on a lifetime of memories with their child as a of memories with their child as a result of avoidable mistakes. As part of her inquiry into maternity part of her inquiry into maternity care, Donna Ockenden provided a blueprint, a starting point from which we could put an end to this which we could put an end to this scandal.

Make maternity care fit for purpose and put an end to these purpose and put an end to these unnecessary deaths. However, these nationally applicable and media and nationally applicable and media and essential actions of the Ockenden report have not all been report have not all been implemented. Not only this, but the government has dropped the requirement for every ICB to have a requirement for every ICB to have a women's health hub, and it's announced cuts to the National Service development funding for Service development funding for maternity services from £95 million maternity services from £95 million in 2425 to just £2 million the following year.

Is it any wonder, therefore, that the UK is underperforming compared to other countries in the OECD on infant and newborn mortality? Or that, according to a QC report in September 2024, 65% of units are not safe for women to give birth in. We want our country to become the safest place in the world to have a baby, but this can only be achieved if accountability is taken for these failings. Lessons are learnt and concrete steps are taken by the government to put an end to this national scandal.

We've heard from a number of honourable members this evening about the impacts of deprivation and of ethnicity in terms of outcomes for maternity and for babies, the colour of your skin, your bank balance or where you live. Should not be deciding factors in whether you and your baby live or die. Quite simply. Maternity care should not be a lottery. I very much welcome the Secretary of State's presence this evening, and I really would like to endorse the comments made by honourable members for Melton and Syston, Horsham and Chichester that families who've lost babies through medical negligence need to be taken with the government on this journey for reviews.

And I think the Sussex families would be furious with me this evening if I didn't say to the Secretary of State that they're not happy with how the reviews announced in July are going so far. So I urge the Secretary of State to do everything in his power to listen to the families and take them on this journey together. So I pose a question to the Secretary of State from Hannah and Simon. The Sussex families have waited over a year for the government to appoint Donna Ockenden, the one person with a proven record of exposing failings and driving improvement.

Thus far, their patience has been repaid with delay, confusion and avoidance. So when will the government act to stop these preventable deaths? By appointing Donna Ockenden to lead the Sussex Review? And by confronting what has become a national shame for our country's children with a full public inquiry. My honourable friend, the member for Carshalton and Wallington, said very movingly about him and his wife's experience of miscarriage and I endorse his call for every miscarriage to secure a mental health support after a single miscarriage, not just three.

I'm sure the Honourable lady will want to conclude her remarks very quickly. The theme of this year's Baby Loss Awareness Week is together we care and we do care. We together care for all kinds of baby loss and for babies like Austin. As Hannah told me, we lost an entire lifetime. Our son never had the chance to grow up, to take his first steps, to speak his first words, and to make quickly.
23:42
Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
-
-
Doctor Caroline Johnson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I draw attention to of members to my register of interests. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the member for Godalming and Ash, and the honourable members for Rossendale and Darwen and Sherwood Forest, for securing the debate, and for their eloquent and thoughtful speeches behind the statistics that others and I will put before members today are the broken families with a gaping hole in their lives and a pain that will never go away.

So many unanswered questions. What would their first word have been? When would they have taken their first steps? Who would they have grown up to become? Poor families who've lost a baby? These questions, painfully tragically, will never be answered. I've been honoured to meet with charities who are all doing excellent work to support families who've been affected by baby loss, and campaigning for improved maternity services. And I pay tribute to these charities Alice Sands, Tommy and others and the Royal Colleges.

And I thank the families of the Maternity Safety Alliance for sharing their very personal and moving stories with me and the Shadow Secretary of State recently when we met with them. The previous government worked hard to improve maternity services. A decade ago, my right honourable friend for Godalming and Ash, as the then Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, announced an ambition to halve the rates of stillbirths, neonatal and maternal deaths in England by 2030. And he did make encouraging progress. The stillbirth rate fell by around 20%.

The neonatal death rate also fell by around 20%, and the maternal death

**** Possible New Speaker ****

rate by about a third. I will. Stafford, would.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hon. Friend agree with me that the introduction of the baby loss certificate following the pregnancy loss review under the last

**** Possible New Speaker ****

loss review under the last government was a vital step in recognising bereaved parents grief. And offering.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And offering. Offering support on their terms. Johnson. I thank Honourable friend for that intervention. And of course, that intervention. And of course, he's right. These certificates have proved a great comfort to many and the honourable lady for Washington South and Washington and Gateshead South and Washington and Gateshead South talked earlier of her work on that, and I thank her for that and for that. My former colleague Tim for that. My former colleague Tim Loughton. One of the reasons, Madam Deputy Speaker, I went into politics is because you can make more difference as a politician than a difference as a politician than a single doctor alone.

The changes made by my right hon. Friend for Godalming in Ash means he has saved Godalming in Ash means he has saved more babies lives than I have as a consultant paediatrician by quite consultant paediatrician by quite some margin. So I assure the Secretary of State it is not flattery when I say he has more capacity than any NHS doctor when it comes to saving babies lives. I am pleased to say see him here at almost midnight. I know he cares. almost midnight. I know he cares.

And I know, like all of us, he wants to stop the tragedies we've heard so much about today. I ask him to much about today. I ask him to consider every day whether he is really doing all that he can to maximise the opportunity that he has. And in the spirit of constructive opposition, I have a few questions. He said he came in with a plan, but in fact he took a year to create the ten year plan, which creates a maternity and neonatal taskforce tasked with creating another plan.

I sincerely hope, Madam Speaker, that it is a good plan after all this waiting, but I do worry that it's lost time. So can you confirm when it will be published? Staffing levels have been mentioned in many tragic incidents, and the Secretary of State has promised that he will train thousands of additional midwives. But when we look at the figures, ten fewer students have been accepted onto midwifery degrees in England on average over his across his two years in office compared to 2023.

So can the Secretary of State confirm when he expects to train 3000 additional midwives? He promised in his manifesto? The previous government increased the number of medical school places and built five new medical schools. As these students begin to qualify, the specialist training places need to be expanded and British graduates need to be prioritised. The Secretary of State seemed to understand this at Easter, but what has he done about it? The applicant to place ratio has risen dramatically and now strikes are threatened, which would threaten the care of women and babies across the country.

But I'm Deputy Speaker. We know that reducing baby loss starts before a baby is conceived and that factors like teenage pregnancy, smoking, obesity and suboptimal managed chronic conditions increase the risks of stillbirth. We must systemically improve on factors that increase the risk of baby death. I welcome that the so to state has brought through legislation introduced by the previous government to fortify bread flour with folic acid by the end of 2026. This will prevent 200 cases of neural tube defects a year and improve the health of pregnant women.

I'm also pleased to see the Tobacco and Vapes bill is gradually making its way through Parliament. However, given that the bill can be completed, its Second Reading in the House of Lords on the 23rd of April and is not due to appear before the committee until 27th of October, more than six months later. It just doesn't seem to have urgency in the government's actions. So can the state tell us what he's doing to improve preconception advice and optimise the management of chronic conditions in women to reduce the risk of baby loss? As an NHS doctor, I pay tribute to my colleagues who welcome almost 600,000 tiny miracles into the world each year.

However, as we've heard this evening, there have been a number of views demonstrating that care does not always meet the highest standards and that too often avoidable deaths occur. Can the Secretary of State assure us that the findings of the ongoing Ockenden review into maternity services will be swiftly acted upon? Donna Ockenden's 2020 review into maternity care at the Shrewsbury Trial for trust found that at least 201 babies and nine mothers could have survived if they'd had a better care. From her report came £95 million.

Ringfenced fund to improve care available for expectant mothers. But as we've heard already this evening, the government has slashed that fund from 95 million to just two, with the rest of the money siphoned off to England's 42 integrated care boards. The government has also, however, reduced ICB budgets and is forcing them to restructure. And I'm worried, Madam Deputy Speaker, this on ring fencing of the budget and the distracting reorganisation will have a negative impact on if efforts to improve maternity services.

So what is the Secretary State doing to prevent negative consequences? Neonatal care can be life saving. 1 in 7 babies in the UK require neonatal care, but unfortunately their fight for life is not always one. And 1933 babies died in neonatal care in 2023. With that in mind, will the Secretary of State clarify the extent to which neonatal services will be included in maternity and neonatal investigations due by the end of the year? How will the quality of neonatal care be assessed? The recent NHS States review of maternity and Neonatal care did not appear to include parental accommodation.

Yet many parents will find their babies transferred miles away for specialist care. Can I urge the Secretary of State to recognise the value of this accommodation and make sure it's widely available? As many members have mentioned, black and ethnic minority women are more likely to suffer baby loss or maternal death. Can the Secretary of State update us on what progress he's made on his government's manifesto to close the maternal mortality, maternal maternal mortality gap for black and Asian women? In summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the decade since the previous government launched ambitions to improve maternity safety in the UK, the number of stillbirths and the Natal deaths has reduced by almost a quarter, and the number of new maternal deaths has reduced by around a third.

These are encouraging signs and they show good progress. We must build on these achievements, but there is so much more work to be done. Today we've heard many stories of loss and of care failures. Only action will turn the page on baby loss. We all want and we all wish for improved maternity and neonatal care. But the Secretary of State is the man with the levers to make that happen. The levers to save hundreds of lives. I urge him to use them urgently.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Secretary of State. Oh, thank you, Madam Deputy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Oh, thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I just thank all honourable and right honourable members who've taken part in this members who've taken part in this extremely powerful debate? I want to thank the honourable friend, the member for Rossendale and Darwen, member for Rossendale and Darwen, the right woman for Godalming and Ash and my Honourable friend, the member for Sherwood Forest for securing this debate and the backbench business debate. The Committee for granting the debate. Before I get into the substance of the debate, since this is Baby Loss the debate, since this is Baby Loss Awareness Week, I do want to put on record my thanks to the all-party parliamentary groups for baby loss, parliamentary groups for baby loss, maternity and patient safety for their work raising awareness charities like Tom Hayes, Sands, Miscarriage Association and Bliss who give bereaved families a voice and incredible support and who and incredible support and who deserve real special recognition.

I'm also extremely grateful to members on all sides of the House who've named local charities run by those often with lived experience, those often with lived experience, who play such a crucial role in improving services over others do not have to experience the torture that they have experienced. It's organisations like these that drove
00:00
Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
-
-
the adoption of baby loss certificates, introduced by the last government and expanded by this one. government and expanded by this one. I too want to thank Tim Lawton for his work, my Honourable friend member for Washington and Gateshead member for Washington and Gateshead South for her leadership in this space. Not everyone will choose to space. Not everyone will choose to have a certificate, but the option is now there for all parents who've experienced losing a pregnancy to experienced losing a pregnancy to have that loss recognised, efficient, officially.

And I know this has meant so much to those this has meant so much to those who've taken up that option, and to those who are providing the service, those who are providing the service, particularly staff in NHS business services who've shared with ministers their pride, many of them ministers their pride, many of them having that experience of loss themselves, of being part of the solution. And of course, I'm delighted that the government in Wales has also taken up this this Wales has also taken up this this option too, madam, to speak with the time available, there is simply no time available, there is simply no way of doing justice to the contributions that we've heard from contributions that we've heard from members across the House and the stories that they have shared with us.

But if there's one thing that us. But if there's one thing that I've learned in my time as Secretary of State working on these issues is that words will not do any justice to these families at all. What people want to see is action and what they need to experience is justice. I really do want to say a heartfelt thank you to members across the House who've had the courage to share their personal stories, in particular, the honourable member for Rossendale and Darwen, who, by talking about his daughter Malorie, has given voice to many fathers and partners who too often feel airbrushed from the conversation and absent from consideration.

And I think it's very poignant that he opened the debate for us this evening. It is no exaggeration, the member for Gedling talked about the leadership of my hon. Friend, the member for Sherwood Forest. It is truly extraordinary that in the aftermath of such an awful bereavement, with the loss of her father, that she was back to work in a matter of days so that she could be there with families in Nottingham to support them in their ongoing campaign for justice.

And of course, whether it's the member for Sheffield Hallam, my Honourable friend, the member for Clapham and Brixton Hill, the honourable member for Carshalton and Wallington, all of them sharing their stories because others who have spoken previously have had the courage to share their own experience. And I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the member for Washington and Gateshead South. I've certainly never forgotten her speech about Lucy, and she really has blazed a trail for others to follow.

And Madam Deputy Speaker, I can honestly say that in the last year, the most difficult meetings have been those with victims of the NHS, and I think we should pause for a moment just to reflect on how outrageous that sentence is. Victims of the National Health Service, people who in the in their moments of greatest vulnerability, placed themselves and their lives and the lives of their unborn children in the hands of others, finding themselves instead of supported and cared for victims.

It is truly shocking, and I've heard dozens of stories, each unique, each told with heartbreaking clarity and each with a common theme that what should have been a moment of joy became a terrifying ordeal. I've had complete strangers described to me, a government minister. Their experience of injuries endured in childbirth, women who've had to share with me a total stranger, what it's done to their sex lives, what it's done to their incontinence. I've had fathers share with me for the first time their attempts at suicide, and the impact that their loss and grief has had on their mental health.

We've also heard from my honourable friend, the member for Erewash, of the harm done through young people, in this case young Ryan, who was with us in the gallery today. I've seen photographs of parents, children. I've seen the ashes of their children in the tiniest boxes, and I've seen more courage than I could ever imagine mustering if I had to walk a day in their shoes. And each time they have met with me, each time they have met with anyone, they have had to relive the trauma inflicted on them by the state.

And perhaps what is most shocking of all is that if there's another theme that ties these families together, it's the fact that they have had to battle time and time again for truth, for justice, for answers, for accountability, and for change so that other families don't have to experience what they are going through. And I can't thank enough those members on all sides of the House who have placed on record not just the stories, but the names of the children we have lost so that they can stand on the record there for all time.

A stain on the history of our National Health Service, but also a galvanising call to action. And I hope there is some small comfort for families who've been with us in the chamber this evening to hear the debate, or who've watched online to know that Parliament is listening, that we are learning, and that, crucially, we are acting. And many members of remarked on my personal responsibility and the responsibility that weighs heavily on my shoulders to get this right.

We've been joined by some of the Nottingham families this evening. When I've met with them, they've arranged themselves around a horseshoe table in date order with those whose experience go goes furthest back, sat to my left and those most recently sat to my right, and I go back to Nottingham regularly and honestly dread the prospect of going to another meeting with another family arriving on my right hand side at that end of the table with another story to tell, but one that has happened on my watch.

We know how serious these situations and challenges are. We've have an implicit message from the system that tells women not to have a miscarriage at the weekend. We have women who are classed as having a normal birth, still leaving, traumatised and scarred. We still use terms like normal to discuss, to describe a particular type of birth for ideological reasons. And all of these things need to change. We've heard from my hon. Friend the member for Clapham and Brixton Hill, the member for North West Leicestershire and Wolverhampton North East.

The shockingly wide race and class inequalities. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that these are statistical anomalies or just institutional failures, because I've heard time and time again direct firsthand experiences of overt racism, of black women. Told that it was assumed that they would be a strong black woman, so wouldn't need so much. Painkiller and pain relief. We've had examples of Asian mothers being described as divas and perhaps most shockingly of all, taking a step back and looking at the overall picture.

We've had the normalisation of deaths of women and babies. We have levels of loss and death in this country which are simply not tolerated in others. And we have a shocking culture of cover up and backside covering, as we've heard across the chamber this evening. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, recognising I can't respond to every individual point that we made in the debate, I will undertake to write to members across the House with detailed answers to the question they pose. I do want to just conclude by making this point, and this is about trust.

We are setting out the rapid investigation led by Baroness Amos, because I need to act urgently on the systemic challenges. I want to acknowledge openly and publicly that not all families are with me on this. Many have concerns, and they wonder whether this will just be another review that sits on the shelf. I just want to conclude by assuring them and assuring this House of my personal commitment to make sure this isn't the case, not just through leading the task force that will implement the that will implement the recommendations myself, but to give a promise to this House and to those families in the spirit set out by my hon.

Friend the member for Sherwood Forest, that grief must be the engine of change, and the stories I engine of change, and the stories I have heard from those families first hand will be the steel in my spine hand will be the steel in my spine to deliver the change they need.
00:01
00:02
00:03
None Portrait Adjournment: Government support for heritage sites in the East of England
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Fairly brief. I know others want to intervene as well. Very happy to accept that. I'd like to declare an. Interest as.
00:04
Pam Cox Portrait Pam Cox MP (Colchester, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Interest as. Co-chair of the. East of England all-party group.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

East of England all-party group. Can I begin by wishing members a slightly early. S6 day?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

slightly early. S6 day? The official. Celebration is on Said's day in two weeks time, but I'm sure since

**** Possible New Speaker ****

two weeks time, but I'm sure since said wouldn't mind an early. Greeting in the. Seventh century, said became

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bishop of the East Saxons. At the request of King Seibert the good, whose territory included

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the mighty Colchester I'm. Proud to represent, and the muddy river crossing. Now known.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Now known. patron. Saint of Essex as we know, and as

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Saint of Essex as we know, and as fierce. And unique identity.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And unique identity. We may not no longer have our own king, but we will shortly be electing our own mayor as part of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

electing our own mayor as part of this. Government's commitment to devolution. And it's the. Process of devolution, which is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Process of devolution, which is the context. For tonight's remarks. Powers are being reorganised in the East of England, and I and I think other colleagues want to make the case for heritage and culture to be more centrally at the heart.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

more centrally at the heart. Of that process. The English Devolution White Paper issued last December. Says Paper issued last December. Says this that strategic authorities will also be key partners in boosting culture, heritage and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

culture, heritage and. The visitor economy. Supported by close integration with arm's length bodies like

**** Possible New Speaker ****

with arm's length bodies like Historic England. However. Consultations issued. In July this year. For devolution in. Greater Essex and in Norfolk and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Greater Essex and in Norfolk and Suffolk say this that the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and its of Culture, Media and Sport and its arm's length bodies should explore deeper collaborative partnership with. The mayoral combined county authority. Now, many MPs in the East of England are concerned that this language does not sufficiently.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Prioritise heritage and culture. And the economic opportunities

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And the economic opportunities that they. Represent within this devolution process. And yes, I will

**** Possible New Speaker ****

give way. And I'm going figure. First of all, can I commend the nobility. For Colchester for bringing this forward? I spoke.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

forward? I spoke. To her beforehand and thus. She agreed that the European Heritage Days are a supreme example

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Heritage Days are a supreme example of how to enjoy heritage sites. another. Indeed anywhere else in this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Indeed anywhere else in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Newtownards. So I'm very conscious that they, they, they provide the historical venues and I provide the historical venues and I think of The Priory and Newton Ards, which is a Dominican priory built in the 12 others, but it's one that can the 12 others, but it's one that can only be entered on Heritage Days, European Heritage Days. And does she European Heritage Days. And does she agree that greater affordable access to the public has inspired new to the public has inspired new generations to know who they are, where they come from? And that is definitely worth greater UK investment?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

investment? Pam, I. Thank the. Honourable gentleman for his inspection. Would absolutely agree that accessibility.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that accessibility. heart. Of. Much of this. So on that point around devolution, I would like to ask the Minister to address this issue and to work with of.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Heritage and. Culture within the ongoing. Devolution processes in. The East of England. Not relating of way.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Not relating of way. I would like to. Thank the honourable lady for a generosity of giving way at this generosity of giving way at this late hour. I'm not an East of England MP, but I am the Chair of the Appg for Unesco World Heritage Sites. So this is an issue about which I care passionately. As the honourable lady has made that point, I would just ask the Minister to I would just ask the Minister to bear in mind very carefully.

Clause 141 of the Planning Infrastructure Bill, because we do we do not want that legislation to inadvertently cause second order effects, challenges for these very important sites, which are part of our history, culture and heritage are a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

history, culture and heritage are a big part of who we are as a society. Well. that. Intervention and indeed.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Intervention and indeed. Planning regulation will also play a really important part in. In.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In. In preserving our heritage. And I am sure Minister will make note of those, those comments. So the East,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

as we know, is. A. Region rich in history, my own constituency in Colchester. We are

**** Possible New Speaker ****

constituency in Colchester. We are rightly proud of our claim to be the first city. Built in Britain. And its first Roman capital. We possess the oldest and longest.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

possess the oldest and longest. Roman city. Walls, the remains of the Temple of Claudius and a monument particularly close to my heart. Britain's only known Roman chariot racing track. Think Ben-Hur with an Essex twist. It is known as the. Colchester Roman Circus. It is a site of international importance, yet continues to face planning and development pressures. And Honourable gentleman just just mentioned and lacks the sustained investment needed to realise its full potential. Now, one of the difficulties we face at that site and at some other scheduled ancient monuments in my constituency, is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that their historic. Importance. Can be, at. appreciate.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

appreciate. So the Roman circus spectator. Terraces were so. Huge that. The Saxons. Presumably including King Abbot,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Presumably including King Abbot, found them a great source of unfortunately. Their commendable. Recycling meant that they there's

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Recycling meant that they there's nothing left of the circus above ground. Now, as a result of that,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

ground. Now, as a result of that, I've been in discussions with local heritage architects. About the. Possibility of reconstructing

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Possibility of reconstructing these mighty starting gates of the circus, based upon designs that have been found in other similar buildings elsewhere in Europe. Now, these are the gates through which charioteers and horses would have charioteers and horses would have funded through the start of every race. We've run into a problem, however, in that historic England however, in that historic England does not seem very keen on reconstructions these days, although previous generations that they may previous generations that they may have been more keen that a reconstruction in some form would most likely draw many more people to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

most likely draw many more people to energise. Local tourism. So. the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the. Minister to take up this issue with Historic England to see if the attitude towards reconstruction can attitude towards reconstruction can be revised in situations such as these. Now, another key site in my constituency is the former Romano-British settlement at Grosbeaks Field. This dates from the early first century CE, and is believed to have been the residence of Noble friend, known to the Romans as King of the Britons and Shakespeare as Cymbeline. The site includes an Iron Age, which today still forms past the boundary line between my constituency and that of the Right Honourable Member for Witham.

Now Godspell itself is believed to be the place where ancient Britons signed up or surrendered, depending on your view to become part of the Roman Empire. It plays, therefore, a vital part not just in the history of our county, but of the country, and I would very much like to see much more made of God, because the Romans constructed a very large theatre and a huge temple at God's works. But here too, the bricks were recycled, and today there's little to see. However, experts and former colleagues of mine at the University of Essex have a renowned track record in developing immersive technology and virtual and augmented reality applications that could help bring God's Becks back to life for new audiences.

If you think Runnymede and Magna Carta, I think it's that order of magnitude now, there's already some interest in this from the National Lottery Heritage Fund from a green spaces perspective. But I also see many synergies here with the ministerial team's responsibilities for culture, heritage and media, with with an emphasis there on media as God speaks. And sites like it could provide brilliant opportunities for 21st century interactive media interpretations that are the gateway to more inclusive access to our heritage and culture.

So I would like to encourage the Minister of the Department to do more to promote such opportunities, perhaps using God's bricks as a use case. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, our heritage sites tell our national story. They connect us to the generations who came before us. They offer opportunities for education and tourism and to create pride in place. But they also face real and growing threats from neglect, from development pressures and underinvestment, threats that became ever more intense under the previous government and its cuts to local authority coffers.

And that's why I welcome the many announcements of enhanced funding for heritage made by this government over the past year, just to give a few 15 million through the Heritage at Risk Capital Fund, a further 5 million through the Heritage Revival Fund, and details of new spending coming just this week of a £20 million museum renewal fund. Now, these initiatives empower communities to take ownership of local heritage and breathe new life into neglected buildings. And when done well, projects like these can deliver multiple returns for local economies, creating employment,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

aspiration and pride. I will honour bear. I'd like to thank my friend for securing today's debate. Does my securing today's debate. Does my little friend agree with me that other heritage sites are independently run stately homes like independently run stately homes like Knebworth House, my constituency receive no government funding and. They need a fair fiscal and planning framework. Does she not agree with me that we need the government to provide streamlined consent for energy efficiency measures so that they can continue to support rural jobs, tourism and climate goals?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

jobs, tourism and climate goals? Hancock's Honourable gentleman intervention. And yes, I would agree all these options are things to be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

all these options are things to be explored. Anything that enables greater access to heritage, I think. And. Speaking as a. Formal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Formal. Historian is to be is to be celebrated in the beneficiaries of some of those grants I mentioned some of those grants I mentioned previously include projects to revitalise Lowestoft Town Hall. The former Iron Duke pub in Great Yarmouth, St George's Guildhall in Kingsland Inn in Norfolk. So heritage as you've seen, taking many heritage as you've seen, taking many forms across across our region and in Colchester, work has just begun in Colchester, work has just begun on a £10 million project to restore our magnificent Victorian water tower, known as jumbo.

The project tower, known as jumbo. The project is generously supported by the National Lottery Heritage Fund, by central government and city and county councils, charitable funds and local residents, and it will create a great visitor attraction from our city. It's one of the first things you see as you come in on on the train into the city. But welcome as these projects are, they don't make up for the fact that heritage and cultural sectors in the East face ongoing funding challenges.

Much of the blame for this, like so many of the challenges we face, can be laid on the edges of austerity after 2010. Since that year, overall local authority spending on heritage has dropped by 45%. That's bad enough in itself. But according to figures from Historic England, from Historic England in the east is down by 60%. So this is quite liquid and can be quite catastrophic for the for these sites. Spending on museums in the East is down by 57% and on archives by 38% by one count from an IPR report published in July this year, the East of England receives less heritage and cultural funding per capita than any other region, just £12.57 per person, less than half the national average and just a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

fifth of the amount in London. So in. Bringing my.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bringing my. Remarks to a close tonight, I would encourage the Minister to would encourage the Minister to consider two broad courses of action, one that can help first, first, to create a dedicated regional heritage strategy for the East of England, one that can help shape devolved policy under the new mayoralty, with clear priorities and long term funding commitments that address this funding gap for address this funding gap for heritage in our parts of the country. And second, to meet with me to discuss how we might develop more to discuss how we might develop more innovative, inclusive approaches to preserving and celebrating our regional heritage.

So, Madam Deputy regional heritage. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the heritage is not just about bricks, mortar or memory. It's about identity, belonging and about identity, belonging and opportunity in the here and now. When we invest in heritage, we invest in jobs, tourism, education invest in jobs, tourism, education and community cohesion. And as we've heard from members around the chamber tonight, there are treasures chamber tonight, there are treasures aplenty in our region and I hope we can find new ways to unlock their full potential.

With imagination, full potential. With imagination, investment and the commitment to future generations. Thank you very much, Minister Ian Murray.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

much, Minister Ian Murray. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm pleased to respond to this adjournment debate, and can I congratulate the honourable member for Colchester on bringing this debate and wish her a very happy Essex Day, something I never thought I would say from this despatch box, but I wish everyone a happy Essex Day nonetheless. The East of England has a unique cashews laid out and rich heritage and as my friend has set out, the region is awash with nationally significant.

Heritage assets such as the Iron Age, Neolithic flint mines at Grim's, Graves from Ingham Castle and the Tudor, Roma and Labrum, and historic houses such as Audley and House and Sandringham. Of course, we have the Sandringham. Of course, we have the Knebworth House as well. It's also home to a rich Roman heritage, as she has laid out, no more evident than in my Honourable friends constituency of Colchester, which it's not only, as she said, Britain's oldest recorded settlement. There is also the formal settlement.

There is also the formal Roman capital with its iconic Roman circus. And, she said, the Ben-Hur. But in Essex I'm not quite sure what But in Essex I'm not quite sure what it would then be called that subsequently, that film that we could really leave that sticking to the wall. Madam Deputy Speaker, the wall. Madam Deputy Speaker, indeed, I would like to take this.
00:17
Ian Murray Portrait Rt Hon Ian Murray MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Edinburgh South, Labour)
-
-
Opportunity to thank. constituency, including the grade two listed Balkan water tower that she also mentioned. And though she's been involved in efforts to restore and secure its future, and the exciting plans are in train, anything that could department can do to help her with those plans will stand ready to help. A local heritage tells the story of who we are, as she said, and forms the cornerstone of our communities in the present in order to preserve the past. This government is proud to support communities to celebrate the heritage buildings and assets they value, and ensure these buildings can continue to meet their needs in the present and into the future.

Earlier this year, this May on Right honourable friend, the Secretary of State marked the 60th anniversary of the first ever Arts White paper and announced £270 million funding to fix the foundations of our arts venues, museums, libraries and heritage sector and communities right across the country. That ambition is now starting to bear some fruit. Honourable friends constituency has benefited directly from nearly £1.3 million of Arts Everywhere funding to protect Colchester Castle for future generations, enabling urgent maintenance and roof repairs to ensure the landmark's future.

Furthermore, I'm pleased to say that, as announced in August through the government's Heritage at Risk Capital scheme, 37 much loved historic buildings and sites and the places across England that need it most will receive much needed funding to support repairs and restoration. This funding will breathe new life into our heritage and in many cases, help turn them into vibrant spaces that our communities need. Today, over £2 million of this funding is going to projects in the East of England, including £700,000 to bring Lowestoft derelict town hall back to life as a fully accessible public space, with an art gallery, cafe and events venue and £137,000 for the Iron Duke restoration project, as she mentioned in Great Yarmouth, bringing the building back into use and creating 50 much needed new jobs for the area very actively.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I'm calling. I thank the Minister for giving way, and I'm really lucky in northwest Cambridgeshire to represent a whole variety of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

represent a whole variety of heritage sites of different sizes, including Bailey House, which I. Recently visited, 16th century. Stately home.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Stately home. Which welcomes thousands. the. House. Itself and the gardens. And.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And. Smaller size too, like John Clare Cottage where the famous poet lived and the surroundings for which inspired so much of his poetry. So, inspired so much of his poetry. So, as well as welcoming the local, national and international tourism from these sites, does the Minister agree that it's important we support

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the educational. Work they're doing around. Local history, agriculture and the natural environment. And stuff?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And stuff? Can I thank my honourable friend from northwest Cambridgeshire for that intervention? Because it's true. Because what we've already true. Because what we've already heard from the honourable lady from Colchester, our heritage is about our future, but it's also about our future, but it's also about learning about our past. It's good for social cohesion, but it's also tremendous for education. And Burghley House in particular, and Burghley House in particular, and the John Clare cottage in his constituency play a vital role in that education.

And I'm pleased to that education. And I'm pleased to confirm, Madam Deputy Speaker, we continued Historic England's Heritage Schools programme this year, which supports teachers to year, which supports teachers to bring local heritage into teaching across the curriculum, and I hope that continues because it's very much a passion of the Secretary of much a passion of the Secretary of State and I that we really want to make sure that our heritage across the whole of the United Kingdom is shared by everyone, which is why the Arts Everywhere project is so important for community cohesion and indeed for young people.

Learning about our history and shaping its future. And as my friend from Colchester has set out, preserving and maintaining the rich heritage of this or any region can be expensive and challenging. In addition to the funding I've already mentioned and have been many other interventions by government, the National Lottery Heritage Fund and Historic England to make safe, maintain and preserve the region's invaluable heritage assets in 20 2324 alone, the National Lottery Heritage Fund gave £33.5 million funding to Heritage in East of England, including £13 million investment to Norwich Castle and iconic site in the city.

Originally commissioned by William the Conqueror. Thanks to sustained investment into our heritage, we are seeking at seeing at risk heritage sites removed from Historic England's Heritage at Risk register. And the Honourable lady did see that that is the legacy. For that we should leave for future generations because we are custodians indeed of our own heritage. And that's what the risk register is, therefore, and I'm delighted to see that the risk register sites are being removed from that because of that investment.

The Register gives an annual snapshot of the health of England's valued historic buildings by identifying sites most at risk of loss due to neglect. It lists 427 entries in the East of England alone in 2024. But by working closely with partners and communities, 14 sites have to be removed from the register, with £800,000 of grants being awarded for repairs to an additional 25 sites last year. So we are making progress and we're also making it easier for communities themselves to take ownership of these heritage assets they love, providing nearly £5 million through the Heritage Revival Fund delivered by Architectural Heritage Fund itself.

In addition, we have changed the definition of an asset of community value to state clearly that heritage buildings are included in that so they can be assets for the community to take on. Maintaining a historic heritage does not necessarily mean preserving it in aspic as a relic of the past, and our towns and cities. All the new stand side by saying that our heritage has a key role to play in delivering this government's ambitious commitments to boost economic growth and build 1.5 million new homes alongside our existing heritage.

There are examples up and down the country where growth and development can co-exist with our wonderful heritage. A local example is Laxton Gardens and Colchester and the Honourable ladies own constituency. This development, which will see the creation of 120 new homes on the former Essex County Hospital site, includes the restoration of the grade two listed main hospital, which has deep rooted heritage connections and significance in the local community. And to support our ambitions, we are working across government to streamline the planning system, including the role of Historic England as a statutory consultee to ensure timely, expert advice that supports high quality development, and the government remains committed to protecting historic assets and will ensure that any changes to the planning system do not remove the quality of advice or heritage safeguards it.

Honourable friend asked some questions. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I've got a few minutes to run through some of those. She did ask if we would address the issues with regards to enhancing the importance of heritage, culture and tourism within the ongoing devolution process in the East of England. I can assure Honourable friend there has been no change in position between the two papers that she cited. This government remains committed to supporting local areas to deliver their own priorities, including widening access and participation to cultural and heritage and harnessing their potential for community transformation and economic growth.

And the department's arm's length bodies, such as Historic England, will continue to explore how to work in partnership with strategic authorities within the ongoing devolution process in the East of England. She did ask as well about the local heritage architecture, but the possibility of restructuring the mighty starting gates of the circus, based upon designs of other elsewhere. It's an incredibly interesting project. My Honourable friend, the Baroness Twi Cross and the Other Place takes the heritage portfolio, so I'll make sure that the Honourable lady gets a meeting with Baroness Cross to discuss this project in detail.

But the scheduled monuments like the Roman Circus are protected in the form they have been passed down to us by previous generations. But should a proposal come forward to reconstruct elements of the circus as she is laid out, it would require careful consideration through the scheduled monument consent process. And I understand Historic England are continuing to work with Colchester Council on that particular exciting project. She also asked about synergies and the department's responsibilities for cultural heritage and media. I agree that virtual and augmented reality has great potential to bring our heritage to life.

In fact, through programmes such as the audience of the future and the Creative clusters, we have demonstrated, the value of immersive reality can bring to all sorts of experiences, including museums and storytelling. If she wants to take that particular issue as well to Baroness 12. Plus, when we arrange that meeting, this is something that she'd be very much interested in hearing about in terms of how augmented and virtual reality could create a real benefit to the people of Colchester, and indeed, the Roman castle site.

And she finally asked, Will the government create a dedicated regional heritage strategy for the East of England, one that can help shape the devolved strategy in itself? Our devolution reforms aim to put power back in the hands of local leaders and local people, and support mayoral strategic authorities to lead strategies in the areas they want to prioritise to drive the change they want to see. I have no idea what that means either, but I think what it basically means is that the power of having the strategic authorities is the grassroots up, and indeed we should be working with our local councils, local members and the strategic authorities in order for that to happen.

And again, I'm very happy to talk to the Honourable lady about that. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to thank my honourable friend from Colchester for securing this debate and providing me with the opportunity to reiterate the government's commitment to protecting and enhancing our shared heritage. We will continue to invest in our Heritage Forge collective, collaborative and collective partnerships and approach development in a pragmatic way, ensuring that precious sites, as many have been mentioned by my friends in the as this adjournment debate, like the Roman Circus and the Vulcan Water Towers, as well as sites in East of England and beyond, are not only preserved but are also celebrated for generations to come and later.

Honourable friend. I look forward to seeing the ongoing positive impact of these heritage projects in Colchester and across the East of England as we continue to build a future where our rich history stands proudly alongside new

**** Possible New Speaker ****

growth opportunities in all our communities. The question is that this House

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that this House do now adjourn as many hours of that do now adjourn as many hours of that opinion, say aye. The ayes have it. House House of House of Commons House of Commons - House of Commons - 13 House of Commons - 13 October The The older. The older. We The older.

We start The older. We start with. The older. We start with. Questions of state for Housing and communities and local government. Paul Waugh.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Question number one, Mr Speaker. Secretary of State. The speaker is a privilege to be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The speaker is a privilege to be appointed as Secretary of State for housing, Communities and Local Government. But can I start with paying tribute to my predecessor, paying tribute to my predecessor, the my hon. Friend, the member for Ashton under Lyne and the former Deputy Prime Minister for all that she's done since the general election last year, for workers rights, for local government, for building council homes, she made a building council homes, she made a real and lasting difference. Now, with your permission, Mr Speaker, I'll take questions one, three and I'll take questions one, three and 22 together.

In July, this Labour government published a five step plan to deliver the biggest increase plan to deliver the biggest increase in social and affordable housing in a generation and transform the safety and the quality of social homes. The Affordable Homes program will deliver a 110 to 130,000 affordable homes under the new £39 billion Social Affordable Homes billion Social Affordable Homes programme, we've set an ambition of 300,000 new homes over ten years. We will set targets after the initial bids.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bids. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was lucky enough to grow up in a council House in Rochdale in a stable and House in Rochdale in a stable and secure home with an affordable rent. But sadly, that's an opportunity in a childhood denied to far too many children in my constituency today. Why? Because under the last ten years of Conservative government, the number of families on the housing list trebled. So, does the Secretary of State agree with me that reducing the number of children in temporary accommodation should be not just the mission of this government, but the moral mission of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this government today? May I thank him for highlighting this incredibly important issue, and this incredibly important issue, and for always championing his constituents in Rochdale. He's quite right to highlight the appalling right to highlight the appalling record of the party opposite on temporary accommodation for families and children, and on homelessness, and children, and on homelessness, and on rough sleeping, our beer, our drive to build more social, affordable homes will tackle tackle affordable homes will tackle tackle their failure head on.

We will reduce homelessness levels and the need for temporary accommodation by need for temporary accommodation by providing more secure, unaffordable homes up and down the country, with a particular focus on social rent, including record numbers of new council homes. Through George, I thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Secretary of State to his position and declare an interest as a volunteer member now of the Cornwall

**** Possible New Speaker ****

volunteer member now of the Cornwall Community Land Trust. The Secretary of State will be well aware that a. Perfect storm has hit.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The construction. Industry as far as the delivery of social housing is concerned, tend of social housing is concerned, tend to forecasts. Are certainly not encouraging homes England's and encouraging homes England's and scoring matrix is proving itself to be inflexible, and the cost to value ratio, which is used by RFPs, is ratio, which is used by RFPs, is certainly not helping and is providing a disincentive to deliver.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In the most deprived communities. There are thousands of pounds could. Minister.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The. Secretary of State, meet me and fellow members. Of the. Community led housing sector

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Community led housing sector otherwise will be waiting another five years. To get otherwise. Shovel ready.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Shovel ready. Affordable homes off the ground? Well, I'm always happy to meet up, meet him or others on issues up, meet him or others on issues just as important as this one. I had the pleasure of visiting Newlyn in his constituency not so long ago, his constituency not so long ago, and some of these issues were made apparent to me by people living in the area. Now we've already announced top ups to the Affordable Homes programme in the autumn and in the spring, and in March we announced £2 billion as a down announced £2 billion as a down payment for the new Social and Affordable Homes programme, which is now open for bids.

Home Homes now open for bids. Home Homes England can, and they do, vary grant rates on the basis of bids from social housing providers. Importantly, the £39 billion that is available covers a range of tenures available covers a range of tenures in including community led housing. I would expect and hope to see increases in the way that he's

**** Possible New Speaker ****

described. Tom Rutland. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The only way to solve the housing crisis is, as my right hon. Friend so articulately puts it, to build baby build. In my constituency of East Worthing and Shoreham, the median wage is 37,000, but the median House price has soared to more than ten times that. So what will the government do to ensure that social and affordable homes will be built

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for my constituents who desperately need them? Yes. That's correct. Well, I thank my honourable friend for his work on this issue, and I'm sorry he's not wearing the red cap that I saw him wearing in Liverpool recently, wearing in Liverpool recently, highlighting this very important issue. This government has committed issue. This government has committed £39 billion to a new ten year affordable homes programme that will deliver around 300,000 homes, with deliver around 300,000 homes, with at least 60% for social rent, which is the most affordable ten year is the most affordable ten year we've committed to the biggest boost to social and affordable housing in a generation, and we're bringing it back in councils and housing back in councils and housing associations to build at scale.

So communities like his in East Worthing and Shoreham get the homes

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Worthing and Shoreham get the homes that they need, but it costs the people can afford to pay them. Caroline damage. Very much. Mr Speaker, there are

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Very much. Mr Speaker, there are over 560 families on Gosport Borough Council's waiting lists with social housing. And yet, despite taking power a few years ago, over that time the Liberal Democrat council have not built a single extra have not built a single extra council House. Meanwhile, the complaints that I get in my mailbag about the substandard quality of about the substandard quality of council accommodation get more and more every single week. So I ask the more every single week.

So I ask the Secretary of State, what is he doing to encourage really inadequate councils like this to build more quantity, but also better quality of council accommodation?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. She will. She will be aware that the government has now reintroduced home building targets that were scrapped by the previous government. I think it's very important that we have those and those are set up at a have those and those are set up at a level which is achievable. Councils will be held to account to achieve that. I'm currently working on an that. I'm currently working on an acceleration package to encourage more. Building with local authorities will be key partners in authorities will be key partners in that will make announcements on that due course.

And of course, she will be aware of changes that we're making to drive up standards in making to drive up standards in council housing and other social housing that we will insist are is

**** Possible New Speaker ****

enforced and carried through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr Speaker, I forced. Me to open the bowling from the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Me to open the bowling from the opposition frontbench. So can I congratulate the Right honourable gentleman on his appointment and gentleman on his appointment and welcome him to his place today? Mr Speaker, the previous government awarded the Mayor of London almost £9 billion of funding to build a total of 151,000 affordable homes in London. The second tranche of this London. The second tranche of this money amounted to £4 billion, which was to build 35,000 homes between was to build 35,000 homes between 2021 and 2026.

To date, only 997 have been completed and 443 of these have been completed and 443 of these were acquisitions rather than newly built homes. What plans does the state have to hold the Mayor of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

London to account for this lamentable failure? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, I thank him

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Well, first of all, I thank him for his for his kind words, but but I think really it is disingenuous to blame the mayor of London for blame the mayor of London for failings that were the fault of the previous Conservative government and current afraid current Conservative current afraid current Conservative boroughs in London, like Bromley, who are a shocking 95% behind their housebuilding target. We can't tolerate that now. The previous government choked off housebuilding everywhere by scrapping housebuilding targets.

They crashed the economy and sent mortgages through the roof so that people through the roof so that people couldn't afford to buy new ones. The shadow secretary state, of course, a major cheerleader for the Prime Minister at the time, who who Minister at the time, who who carried that, who carried that through and housing consents in the last four years collapsed by one last four years collapsed by one fifth. It is this government that will take the steps to remediate, remediate that situation. Is this remediate that situation.

Is this government that is going to get 1.5 million new homes built, is this government that is going to work with local government partners

**** Possible New Speaker ****

with local government partners across the whole country, including here in London, to make sure that built? I think.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think. Mr Speaker, the whole House will have heard that the Secretary State has no plans to intervene and the has no plans to intervene and the Mayor of London. But under section 340 of the act 1999, actually state does have the power to direct the Mayor of London to require him to review and revise specific policies of the London Plan if they are seen as hindering housing delivery. There are a whole plethora of policies, including an obsession with dual facing twin staircases and a bizarre aversion to corridors.

Mr Speaker, developers are united in saying that these are massively hindering development in the country's largest city, which has the highest demand for affordable housing. Mr Speaker, the state is holding all of the cards, including the purse strings. Why won't he intervene?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Well, first of all. Can I say I do recognise the challenges that he's outlined? They should concern all of us and I thank him for raising these. He will be aware that we're making legislative changes right now, with the planning changes right now, with the planning and infrastructure bill going through to speed up the planning system, which is holding back so many homes from being built, and we many homes from being built, and we will be putting down further amendments to that to tackle some of the challenges that that he is the challenges that that he is talking about.

I am working with the Greater London Authority and the Mayor of London on an acceleration package, particularly targeting London, and we will make announcements on that within weeks announcements on that within weeks so that he will see the action that we intend to take here in the capital city to ensure that home capital city to ensure that home building continues apace here. But we'll also be looking nationally because every region of the country because every region of the country needs these new homes built to meet people's dreams of somewhere affordable that to rent or to buy.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

affordable that to rent or to buy. Gideon Amos Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In. 2007, when Campbell launched

**** Possible New Speaker ****

2007, when Campbell launched Liberal Democrats campaign not just for affordable but for decent homes for our military in congratulating for our military in congratulating Sexy State on his position, will he join me in congratulating the forces families who backed my amendment to provide them with a decent home standard? And will he agree with me that they deserve nothing less?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hey, hey. Yeah of course. Can I can I thank him for his his his kind words as him for his his his kind words as well. And I agree with him. The changes that have been made and we've managed to come to consensus on this are very important. And they will make a big difference to forces, families and veterans. And forces, families and veterans. And we all want to see that. And I congratulate and commend him for working cross-party on us to ensure working cross-party on us to ensure we get an outcome that will be very satisfactory to everybody who's concerned about this issue in the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

concerned about this issue in the way that he is. On. Question number two, Mr Speaker. Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. My department does.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My department does. Not hold data and the. Proportion of people that have been granted. Asylum.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Status and who are living in the private rented sector in England. It was extraordinary. The minister doesn't have that answer. minister doesn't have that answer. Too many asylum seekers are arriving in our communities far too fast, because this government has failed because this government has failed in its promise to smash the gangs. People have had enough, and this Labour government doesn't seem to have any answers. What actions will the Minister take to support local the Minister take to support local communities and public services? To deal with the growing number of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

asylum seekers in our communities? But I'm. Afraid, Mr Speaker. I'll take no lectures from the honourable gentleman. It was the previous.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Conservative government in which he served as a minister that lost control of our borders and presided control of our borders and presided over the complete breakdown of the asylum system. This government is restoring order to that system, restoring order to that system, speeding up decision making, reforming the. Appeals process, cutting the asylum backlog and removing those with no right to be here at.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

here at. A much faster. Rate than the previous government did. Mr Speaker, our country has a did. Mr Speaker, our country has a proud history of providing sanctuary to those fleeing persecution. Genuine asylum seekers granted refugee or humanitarian protection refugee or humanitarian protection status should be welcomed. He would have said the same some years ago, and it's a sign I'm afraid of just

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and it's a sign I'm afraid of just how far his party have fallen, that so. So the minister then. Well.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Mr Speaker. It's clear, despite that answer, that things are getting that answer, that things are getting worse. Our councils are battling with the cost of this government's border failures. The 22% rise in border failures. The 22% rise in small boat arrivals combined. Now, with Chagossians arriving in rising with Chagossians arriving in rising numbers, throwing themselves on the mercy of our local authorities as they escape storm ballot are they escape storm ballot are stretching council housing budgets to breaking point.

The government has refused to answer my written has refused to answer my written questions about what financial support it provides to councils housing asylum seekers and refugees that are granted asylum in their areas. So can you tell the House how much are the proposed rise in council tax is for the cost of the government's asylum failures, and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

will he publish the full costs and transparency? Yes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yes. I'm afraid, Mr Speaker, the honourable gentleman is conflating two separate issues. Genuine asylum seekers who have been granted seekers who have been granted refugee status can stand on their own two feet, can work and will rent in some cases in the private rented sector, in other cases, market sector, in other cases, market housing, some dispersal accommodation for those seeking asylum will of course be in the private rented sector and that can private rented sector and that can add pressure to local rental markets.

But that's why decisions must be made in coordination with local authorities, taking into local authorities, taking into account local housing pressures. And, more importantly, Mr Speaker, why the reduction in hotel use needs why the reduction in hotel use needs to be proceeded in an ordered and managed way, not a chaotic way in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

managed way, not a chaotic way in the way the party opposite have been calling for. John Milne. Question number four, Mr Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Question number four, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the National Planning Policy Framework sets out that the purpose of the planning system is to purpose of the planning system is to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development, including the provision of supporting infrastructure in a sustainable manner. We may change it to the manner. We may change it to the framework in December last year that will support the increased provision and modernisation of various types of public infrastructure. Local development plans should address needs and opportunities in relation to infrastructure, and identify what infrastructure is required and how

**** Possible New Speaker ****

infrastructure is required and how forward. John Milne. Thank you, Mr Speaker. we've.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Seen promises of new schools and clinics repeatedly. Broken, but in every case, it wasn't the developer or the local council who let people down. It was national bodies like the Department national bodies like the Department for education and the ISP's. They do it to save money by cramming. More kids into existing schools and more

**** Possible New Speaker ****

kids into existing schools and more patients into clinics. So in the light of. The 21,000. Extra houses that have just been announced by The Chancellor for announced by The Chancellor for Horsham District, will the Minister agree to meet with me to discuss how

**** Possible New Speaker ****

agree to meet with me to discuss how we can legally ensure that key local infrastructure promises are indeed met? Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The honourable gentleman knows I will always. I'm always happy to sit down and talk to him about these and other issues. I think it must be said, Mr Speaker, that when preparing a local plan planning practice guidance recommends that local planning authorities use local planning authorities use available evidence of infrastructure requirements to prepare an infrastructure funding statement. Now in not in all cases, the local Now in not in all cases, the local authorities are doing this. That's why the chief planner wrote to all local planning authorities recently to remind them of their statutory

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to remind them of their statutory duty to do so. But we can discuss that and other issues when I meet with him. The Dix. Baker new housing developments

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Baker new housing developments agreed under the last government have been built on the greenbelt around villages in the Shipley constituency, such as Burley and Wharfedale, Willesden, Dunham and Collingwood, often without the vital investment in infrastructure such as GP practices, schools and other council services. So will the Minister reassure my constituents as we build the much needed affordable and social homes that we will prioritise brownfield and ensure community?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, yeah. I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, as is a brownfield first policy. But her question highlights policy. But her question highlights an important point. Mr Speaker, the previous government released vast swathes of the green belt in a swathes of the green belt in a haphazard and chaotic manner. We are taking a strategic approach to green belt release, prioritising the belt release, prioritising the release of the lowest quality grey belt. And we're assuring that where that happens, subject to our golden rules, that we see higher levels of rules, that we see higher levels of affordable housing and infrastructure, it is a much smarter approach.

The previous government didn't adopt it. They should stop

**** Possible New Speaker ****

didn't adopt it. They should stop carping about it. Now. I put another. Question number. Five, please.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister. Mr Speaker, water companies are not statutory consultees on individual planning applications, individual planning applications, but they are consulted as part of the preparation of local development plans. On the 26th of January, the government declared a moratorium on any new statutory consultees and announced a review of the existing statutory consultees arrangements, a consultation on proposals designed to limit the scope of stack ONS to where advice is strictly necessary

**** Possible New Speaker ****

where advice is strictly necessary and remove entirely a limited number of them, will be published in the near future. Every mother. Thank you, Mr Speaker. infrastructure and reduce the. Likelihood of sewage overflows. So my question to the minister is what recent conversations has he had with the minister, with the Secretary of State for the environment, Food and Rural Affairs about introducing a national rainwater management of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to discuss a range of issues, including in relation to water efficiency and management.

I draw the honourable gentleman's attention to the consultation we launched just last month to review the water efficiency standards within the Building Regulations 2010. As part of that, we are investigating how we can bring technologies such as rainwater

**** Possible New Speaker ****

harvesting into new developments safely. Patrick Hurley. Thank you sir. Number six.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Please, Minister. Mr Speaker, devolution to strong local leaders who understand the economic opportunities and economic opportunities and challenges in their patch has clear economic benefits. It can drive higher productivity, boost local higher productivity, boost local economies and put more money in people's pockets. Go to Manchester for example, which is further along

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for example, which is further along in its devolution journey, is one of the UK's fastest growing local economies. But. Well.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But. Well. Yeah. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm pleased to see that the government is pressing ahead with its is pressing ahead with its commitments to implement new strategic authorities. And so can I press the Minister to consider how these new strategic authorities can grow their local economies through providing support for things like providing support for things like community, businesses and social enterprises in town centres, helping huge opportunity for strategic authorities to support community businesses, co-operatives and social enterprises in order to help regenerate and revitalise our town centres and build community wealth.

We're already seeing this across the country. We see in Liverpool City Region, where significant investment is going into community businesses. We are keen to build on this opportunity and unlock this across the country.
This debate has concluded
Return to start of debate - Return to top of page