Commons Chamber

Monday 17th November 2025

(began 1 month, 2 weeks ago)

Share Debate
Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
14:34
None Portrait Q1. What steps she has taken to ensure that the tendering process for immigration removal centre contracts is competitive. (906340)
-

Order. Order. Before Order. Before we Order. Before we begin, Order. Before we begin, I Order. Before we begin, I should
14:34
14:35
14:35
None Portrait Q1. What steps she has taken to ensure that the tendering process for immigration removal centre contracts is competitive. (906340)
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. speaker. Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Home Office has a procurement policy of
14:35
14:35
14:36
14:36
14:37
14:37
None Portrait Q2. What assessment she has made of the potential impact of implementing asylum policies similar to Denmark on asylum seekers and refugees. (906341)
-

Nadia Whittome Preston Mr Speaker Secretary of State.
14:37
14:37
14:38
14:38
14:39
14:39
14:41
14:41
14:42
14:43
14:44
14:44
None Portrait Q3. What steps her Department is taking to tackle violence against women and girls. (906346)
-

Josh Fenton-Glynn. Number three, please, Mr. Speaker.
14:44
14:45
14:45
14:45
14:46
14:47
14:48
14:48
14:49
14:49
14:50
14:50
14:50
14:51
14:52
14:52
14:53
14:54
14:54
14:55
14:55
14:56
14:56
14:57
None Portrait Q5. What steps her Department is taking to introduce more neighbourhood police officers. (906348)
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. Speaker. Mr. Mr. speaker, with your
14:57
14:58
14:58
14:59
14:59
15:00
15:00
15:01
15:01
15:02
15:02
15:03
15:04
15:04
15:04
None Portrait Q8. What steps she has taken to tackle delays in the payment of refunds by her Department. (906351)
-

Peter Lamb number eight.
15:04
15:05
15:05
15:05
15:06
15:06
None Portrait Q10. Whether she has made an assessment of the potential merits of extending the remit of the national statutory inquiry into grooming gangs to include Scotland. (906353)
-

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question number ten.
15:06
15:06
15:07
15:08
None Portrait Q11. What steps she is taking to improve public access to police officers in Redditch constituency. (906354)
-

For Mr. Speaker.
15:08
15:08
15:09
15:09
None Portrait Q12. What assessment her Department has made of the potential merits of introducing a statutory annual cap on levels of legal immigration. (906355)
-

My well.
15:09
15:10
15:10
15:11
15:11
15:12
15:12
15:12
15:13
15:13
15:14
15:14
15:14
15:15
15:15
15:16
15:16
15:17
15:17
15:18
15:18
None Portrait Topical questions: Home Office
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

We come to topical Seamus Logan, Mr. Speaker. Take care. Mr. speaker, I am pleased to
15:18
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. speaker, I am pleased to start with some very good news indeed. One of the heroes of the Huntingdon attack, Samir Zitouni, the member of the train's crew who risked his own life to save others, has been discharged from hospital. has been discharged from hospital. There is a long road ahead of him now and his family have asked for privacy. But I'm sure the whole privacy. But I'm sure the whole house joins me in wishing him the swiftest and fullest recovery possible.

Since the last Home possible. Since the last Home Office oral questions, I have made a number of significant announcements. A review of police announcements. A review of police protest powers was launched last weekend, and I am pleased to say that the former Director of Public that the former Director of Public Prosecutions, Lord Ken MacDonald, will lead it. Last week we announced that police and crime commissioners will be abolished. The introduction of police and Crime Commissioners by the last government was a failed experiment. government was a failed experiment.

I will introduce new reforms so police are accountable to their mayoralties or local councils. The mayoralties or local councils. The savings from this will fund more neighbourhood policing on the beat across the country, fighting crime across the country, fighting crime and protecting our communities. I would like to recognise the efforts of all current and former police and crime commissioners and thank them because they served their communities with honour, and will

**** Possible New Speaker ****

continue to do so until they have completed their current order. It's far too long an introduction because I'm still
15:19
15:20
15:20
15:21
15:21
15:22
15:22
15:23
15:23
15:23
15:24
15:24
15:24
15:25
15:25
15:26
15:26
15:27
15:27
15:28
15:28
15:28
15:29
15:29
15:30
15:30
15:30
15:30
15:31
15:31
15:32
15:32
15:32
15:33
15:33
Mims Davies Portrait Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah, David. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. speaker, last month across my constituency, there was an increase in knife crime. And this wasn't necessarily carried out by younger people, but by older people. And I know this is an area where the government is determined to crack down on knife crime. Can the government therefore say what more they are doing in this area to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

tackle knife crime? Can I thank my hon. Friend, of course. Nationally, we've taken 60,000 knives off the streets and 60,000 knives off the streets and knife murders are down 18% and knife crime is down 5%. But of course, every single offence is is course, every single offence is is one too many. And we will keep pushing both in terms of the policing response but crucially, the prevention response so that we

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the prevention response so that we can work with our young people to stop them getting involved in crime in the first place. So Julian Lewis.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So Julian Lewis. It's often reported that a high proportion of people who enter the proportion of people who enter the country illegally do so without any reliable identifying documentation. reliable identifying documentation. Can any Minister say, in percentage terms, roughly what the proportions terms, roughly what the proportions are of who has and who has not? Documentation amongst illegal immigration.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

immigration. The following writing with the specific percentages to the right hon. Gentleman. But I would want to
15:34
15:35
15:35
15:35
15:36
15:36
15:36
15:37
15:37
15:38
15:38
15:38
15:38
15:39
15:39
15:40
None Portrait Urgent question: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if she will make a statement on briefings to the press about the contents of the Budget
-

If she will.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Make a statement on briefings. To the press about. The contents. Of the budget. Minister.
15:40
James Murray Portrait Rt Hon James Murray MP, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Ealing North, Labour )
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister. Mr. speaker. government. Takes their. Obligations to this House very

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Obligations to this House very seriously. There has been. Much speculation, as is usual, ahead of a budget. But the Chancellor will come to this House Chancellor will come to this House on November the 26th and deliver a budget which will protect the NHS and public services. It will support growth, enabling businesses to create jobs and to innovate. It will support those struggling with the cost of living, protecting families from high inflation and interest rates. And it will get debt falling because the less we spend on debt interest, the more we can spend on the priorities of working people.

As you would rightly expect, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on individual measures today. The Chancellor has asked the Office of Budget Responsibility to produce a forecast. The OBR and the Treasury exchange information throughout the forecast process, which is the usual practice that has been established over many years. The Chancellor will take decisions based on that forecast, and we will set out our fiscal plans at the budget next week in the usual way. The OBR is making an assessment of the productivity performance of the previous government.

We will not allow the mistakes of the previous government to determine our country's future. That is why the budget next week will be guided by this government's values of fairness and opportunity, and focussed entirely on the priorities of the British people. Stability remains at the heart of our approach by building more resilient public finances, with the headroom to withstand global turbulence. We will give businesses the confidence to invest and leave government freer to act when the situation calls for it. We will continue to meet our ironclad fiscal rules, which allow the government to invest in homes, transport, energy, security and infrastructure.

Mr. speaker, taking this action means we can continue to build a strong foundation for our economy because

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that is the route to securing Britain's future. Mel Stride. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I think given that
15:42
Mel Stride Portrait Rt Hon Sir Mel Stride MP (Central Devon, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. Speaker. I think given that response. The right hon. Gentleman might try a. Bit of. Stand up, actually.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Stand up, actually. And spare time. Mr. speaker, the process around the budget is meant to be the most closely guarded secret in government, but in recent secret in government, but in recent weeks, we have barely been able to pick up a newspaper without a fresh report of the latest policy movements on the 6th of November, Mr. Speaker. The times reported that the Chancellor had included increases in income tax rates in the measures sent to the OBR for scoring.

Then last Thursday, the Financial Times revealed that those proposals had now been removed from the budget package. The Chancellor and her officials may think this is a game they are playing, but it has real life consequences impacting markets. As we saw on Friday. And more than that, Mr. Speaker, it shows an utter contempt for this House in this place. Questions about the budget are always met with the same answer. Decisions on tax will be announced at the budget. That is right and proper.

But it becomes hollow and absurd when those same matters are being openly reported in the national media on a daily basis. The Chancellor even delivered a pre-budget address to the country. Not in this House, Mr. Speaker, but in the Downing Street press room. So, given the Chancellor has chosen not to come to the House today, can I ask the Minister, has the Chancellor or any Treasury Minister sanctioned any briefings to journalists or potential budget tax measures, or the contents of the overs forecasts? Have any Treasury officials or special advisers conducted such briefings? Has the Chancellor or the Permanent Secretary launched an investigation into the source of the leaks? And can the Minister explain why? The Chancellor seems to have confirmed that the OBR have downgraded their productivity forecasts before the budget has even taken place? Mr.

speaker, either the Chancellor has been knowingly allowing the budget process to be briefed out or serious unauthorised leaks have occurred from her department. It has fuelled confusion and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

uncertainty and it has disrespected this House. Yeah. Minister, can I just say it
15:44
15:45
15:45
15:46
15:46
Daisy Cooper Portrait Daisy Cooper MP (St Albans, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

spokesperson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. These leaks are not just. Westminster tittle tattle.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

They have a very real impact on people's lives and their livelihoods. The cold weather has now reached all corners of Britain, and households don't know if they and households don't know if they can afford to put the heating on because they don't know if their taxes are going up or down or staying the same. It's also just five weeks until Christmas, and our high streets are struggling with low consumer confidence. That's precisely why we Liberal Democrats have called for a windfall tax on the big banks to fund an emergency cut to people's energy bills and a VAT cut for hospitality, visitor accommodation and attractions.

But these leaks are not just a symptom. Mr. speaker, so they are a symptom. They are not the cause because the real problem runs much deeper. The Labour government has no vision for the country, no vision for the economy and whatever their destination is, they are not taking the country with them. When people and the markets.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of our pinky and perky dripping

**** Possible New Speaker ****

all day. Well, this is the last one. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When people in markets don't know what the government is trying to achieve, the government is trying to achieve, then rumours can and do run rife. It is clear that this budget is more leaky than our crumbling more leaky than our crumbling hospitals. So, Mr. Speaker, I should also add that the confected outrage from the Conservatives is slightly absurd because their key budget announcements were often leaked in advance as well. In one leaked in advance as well.

In one case at least, almost word for word. Perhaps this House, Mr. Speaker, needs to move to the Swedish system where the Swedish parliament gets to debate the government's budget and propose alternatives and amendments before it is finalised, amendments before it is finalised, and gets a proper period of scrutiny and accountability in the months that follow. So, Mr. Speaker, months that follow. So, Mr. Speaker, can I ask what is the government doing to stop these leaks? Does the government recognise that this flip flopping is incredibly damaging to flopping is incredibly damaging to households and the markets? And will the government consider all benches?
15:48
15:49
15:49
15:49
15:50
15:50
15:50
15:51
15:52
15:52
15:53
15:53
15:53
15:54
15:54
15:55
15:55
15:56
15:56
15:56
15:57
15:57
15:57
15:58
15:58
15:59
15:59
15:59
16:00
16:00
16:00
16:01
16:01
16:02
16:02
16:02
16:03
16:03
16:03
16:03
16:04
16:04
16:04
16:05
16:06
16:06
16:07
16:07
16:08
16:08
16:08
16:09
16:09
16:10
16:10
16:11
16:11
16:12
16:12
16:12
16:12
16:13
16:13
16:14
16:15
16:15
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-
And then I'll come back to you. securing a new nuclear. Project in her constituency? She and I have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

had a number of discussions about. Nuclear power. And other. Energy projects. Mr Speaker nuclear energy provides the stable, nuclear energy provides the stable, low carbon baseload. We need to keep the lights on and to support our economy. It is central to our our economy. It is central to our clean Power mission. That is why we have launched a new golden age of nuclear, committing £17 billion to nuclear, committing £17 billion to the most ambitious programme of new nuclear for a generation.

Our small modular reactor SMR programme led modular reactor SMR programme led by Great British Energy Nuclear, is an example of British innovation. At its best, these mini reactors At its best, these mini reactors are smaller and quicker to build than traditional nuclear power stations, and we have been considering which is the best site to kick off the SMR programme. Now that we have reached that decision, that we have reached that decision, last week we announced that Wylfa, on the north coast of Anglesey, Ynys Mon is our chosen site for GB Ynys Mon is our chosen site for GB Nuclear's first SMR project.

A written ministerial statement on this matter was made on Thursday. this matter was made on Thursday. The initial project will see, subject to contracts, the construction of up to three Rolls-Royce SMR units. The site Rolls-Royce SMR units. The site could host as many as eight, subject to future policy and funding decisions. This will funding decisions. This will deliver the largest industrial investment in North Wales for a generation. It will provide 3000 good jobs on the site at peak construction. GB nuclear is already looking forward to working with Welsh communities on the project, with work due to start on the site as early as next year.

We will be progressing the SMR project across this parliament, working towards final investment decision. Meanwhile, large scale nuclear power stations will also continue to make a vital contribution in our Home-grown clean energy mix complementing these smrs and we will continue to act decisively, invest ambitiously and work with communities, investors and our allies to deliver this golden age

**** Possible New Speaker ****

for new nuclear Llinos Medi. And thank. You for that and I will get my
16:17
Llinos Medi Portrait Llinos Medi MP (Ynys Môn, Plaid Cymru)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

You for that and I will get my next Urgent Question over properly. I am pleased the government has backed the site and Wilbur, and as backed the site and Wilbur, and as I have mentioned several times in this chamber, Wilbur is recognised as the best site in Europe. Can I firstly pay tribute to the team work over decades from elected members, from all parties, campaigners, businesses and the local community who have fought long for new nuclear at Wilbur Ynys Mon has no nuclear for 65 years.

With a strong local college and university ready to train a skilled workforce of the future. To maximise the success of this project, the government must work with the local authority on behalf of our community to deliver tangible economic and social benefits. This includes maximising opportunities in the local supply chain. The potential is clear, but the challenge is turning it into reality. After many false dawns and broken promises, my optimism is cautious. We know the cost of failure on Ynys Mon.

When the Wilbur Project collapsed, it dropped a generation of the opportunity to live and thrive in their community. Recent data from the Nia now shows that nuclear jobs on Ynys Mon are at a record low. We cannot afford further setbacks. Clear timelines and transparent decisions are therefore essential. Can the Minister confirm when the Rolls-Royce contract will be signed? The general design assessments completed and the final investment decision made? The SMI project, as it stands, is already four years behind the previous horizon project at Wilbur.

The project had a planning application and was approaching a final decision before collapsing. Funding the SMR project at Wilbur remains critical. While the government's £2.5 billion for the SMR programme is welcome, most of the costs will currently be funded privately. Given the problems of the past and that Wilbur will host a fleet of Smrs, a first of their kind reactors is the government to prepare to demonstrate its full commitment. We cannot let this historic opportunity to slip through our fingers yet again.

This is a unique opportunity to create a project which will deliver for our language, our culture, and our young people. I urge the government to work with myself and key stakeholders and developers to provide the best project ever to deliver prosperity and energy security.
16:20
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-
Minister. She's right that of course, the community Ynys Mon have faced a number of false starts under the previous government. This is a historic opportunity, a huge moment with this project moving forward, with tangible timelines in place now and the 2.5 billion that she references and of course, Rolls-Royce taking forward this initial three smrs, but with the potential for for more in the future, people will start to see jobs very soon. We expect there will be work on the site as early as next year, and as I say, there'll be 3000 jobs on site in the construction phase at its peak.

I do want to join her in paying tribute to all those who have worked on this project over a great many years. There have been a lot of false starts, a lot of disappointment. But I think last week was a huge moment to recognise the potential for the site being realised with this next generation of nuclear. But I actually think also, Mr. Speaker, for the UK to see Smrs move forward after years of them being talked about to the actually moving forward.

And with that, the huge investment that comes into the social and economic fabric of communities like the hon. Ladies, the Prime Minister spoke last week about the investment in colleges, for example, to make sure we have the skilled workforce in the local area. And nuclear prides itself on creating many well-paid, sustainable jobs in our community. Of course, in previous generations of nuclear has benefited from that. We are determined to make sure those economic and social benefits

**** Possible New Speaker ****

are felt for her constituents, but also right across the UK. Lizzi Collinge. Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
16:21
16:22
16:23
Claire Coutinho Portrait Rt Hon Claire Coutinho MP (East Surrey, Conservative)
-
-
EEZ. so I welcome the progress on Smrs. If we are going to have a strong economy and a good standard of life, then we need abundant, reliable, cheap energy. Nuclear works. In the winter. It runs 24 over seven for AI and it's 100% clean to boot. It uses 3000 times less land than wind and solar, and the latest prices around the world shows it can be much cheaper too. So the conservative position is that we need a lot more nuclear.

We were the party that overturned the complete failure to start any British nuclear plants under the last Labour government. So I say this with some feeling. I've been told that there was just one nuclear welder left in this country when we started work on Hinkley Point C, we invested in the supply chain and skills which had completely withered under the previous government. But now the most important thing is to keep building. I personally signed off a third large nuclear plant at Wylfa because it is the best site that we

**** Possible New Speaker ****

have. It could host both large scale and smrs. So by ruling out large scale. At.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

At. Will Forster and ditching the 24 gigawatt target, are they calling time on new large scale nuclear? That's what it looks like to the rest of the country. That would be a huge mistake. And it is the same mistake they made the last time mistake they made the last time they were in power. If we want cheap energy and growth in this country, then when it comes to country, then when it comes to nuclear, we need to build, build, build. The Minister talked about power generation from Smrs, but power generation from Smrs, but he's talking about power in the 2030s.

But industry are being told 2042 at the earliest. Is that really the best they can do? Who is right? Now we have plans to make right? Now we have plans to make nuclear build much cheaper. In fact, we made radical amendments to their planning bill to cut environmental red tape. They voted against it. But the Nuclear Regulatory Taskforce will report soon. Can they confirm they will consider our they confirm they will consider our proposals when they do? And lastly, would he agree with me that it is fundamentally absurd for the Green Party to talk about clean power in this country whilst having a policy to dismantle Britain's nuclear

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to dismantle Britain's nuclear power plants? Absolutely, Minister. Well.
16:25
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. Speaker, let me start at the end because it is nice in this place. We have a rare moment of consensus now and again. And I would I would add, of course, our friends in the Scottish National Party, and I'm not quite sure about Clyde Comrie. Some of them support nuclear, some of them don't. Even though we're building in Wales. She's right to say that the bedrock of a clean power system has to be nuclear. And it's also an economic opportunity, as we all know.

So I welcome that brief bit of consensus. But of course she talks about build, build, build. Actually all the party opposite did was consult consult, consult. Because she talks about signing off new nuclear. None of it's been built. It's easy to sign off things, but there was no money committed to it. Not a penny of funding committed by the previous government. So I would just say on one of the biggest days for our domestic nuclear industry in a very long time, it was remarkable to hear opposition spokespeople last week talk down the sector.

They talked big for 14 years but built very, very little. Not a single new nuclear project was complete in their entire time in office. And that's because they didn't put any funding into delivering it. We have committed almost £20 billion of real money to build real projects. Because we are ambitious about our nuclear future. We're ambitious about Sizewell C, we're ambitious about the SMR programme, and we haven't ruled out any future giga scale projects. But our ambition is matched by funding to actually deliver these.

Wylfa was the absolute best site on offer and that's why we've been really clear we chose it to host this most important flagship project of this United Kingdom. We are delivering jobs and investment in Wales and we're delivering the next generation of nuclear. After many, many, many years of disappointment by the party opposite.
16:26
16:27
16:28
16:29
16:30
16:31
16:32
16:33
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-
I'm grateful for a genuine question in the House of Commons. I always appreciated look, as I've said earlier on, the decision was made that Yeovil was the best possible site for Smrs. This is a hugely important project for us, starting with three SMR units, but with the potential it will have to increase that, which is a huge opportunity that the will this site has. He's right to say it would also have hosted Giga scale, but the challenge for us was after a great many years of Wylfa being promised, lots of things.

Actually the option on the table was a project with funding right now and with a clear pathway to delivery on a really important site that will deliver the outcomes we need as a country or potentially future. Wait for another spending review where we might make a decision about future nuclear. We are ambitious about what the future of giga scale nuclear would look like, but right now, funding has been confirmed for Smrs and it was right. That will come with its, you know, significantly important as a site but also with a skilled workforce takes advantage of that after what has been a significant amount of time of being promised things but not delivered.

As I've said, we haven't said that this is a limit of our nuclear ambitions, but we will say more in due course about what future sites might look like and great British energy. Nuclear is looking at those now.
16:34
16:34
16:35
16:36
16:37
16:37
16:38
16:38
16:38
16:39
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

our nuclear future. Minister well, I have to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, I was rather expecting every question today to be could be built in my be could be built in my constituency. That, my hon. Friend, is the first. So he wins a prize for that. Look, he makes the point and I won't labour it. But we had a lot of promises and a lot of big talk from the government on nuclear, but very little actually delivered. And the truth is, there was no money put forward for any of these things.

It's easy to sign and say we want to deliver something, but without actually putting any money forward, nothing is going to happen. We've committed to almost £20 billion of funding to make Britain's new golden age of nuclear a reality, and that is what will deliver jobs in his constituency and right across the country. But we are ambitious about the future of Smrs. They are able to be sited in a great many more places than traditional nuclear. We have asked great British Energy, Nuclear, to look at the range of sites that are possible right across the United Kingdom, not just those sites that were traditionally designated for nuclear projects.

That opens up huge opportunity for the energy mix of the future, and of course, for jobs and investment and training

**** Possible New Speaker ****

right across the supply chains as well. James Wild thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the spirit of
16:40
16:41
16:41
16:42
16:43
16:43
16:44
16:44
16:45
16:46
16:47
16:47
16:48
16:49
16:50
16:50
16:51
16:51
16:52
16:53
16:54
16:54
Michael Shanks Portrait Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
-
-
Well, I. right on two fronts. First of all, it's it's all fine and good to promise that you will do things and to talk big and to consult and consult and consult. But actually, at some point, money has to be put on the table to deliver it. The previous government failed to do that. Almost £20 billion of investment has now been brought forward by this government to make these projects a reality. That is how you deliver a new golden age of nuclear in the United Kingdom, not just publishing lots of documents and thinking that's the end of it.

But the second point he makes, I think, is also right that investment in the UK in the clean power transition is hugely important. More than £50 billion of private investment since we came to government last year. That is because of the certainty and the policy confidence that investors have in the UK. That is what we put at risk by the policies of the party, opposite by reform and by others who I think, talk about the future energy mix but miss out the detail and of course put that investment at risk, which is what will put at risk jobs and investment in the supply chains across the country as well.

So we're delivering the energy policy of the future for energy security, jobs.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Can I thank the Minister for his responses this afternoon? Those who are leaving the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Those who are leaving the chamber, can you do so quickly. And quietly. Whilst we. Allow a few moments for the
16:56
16:56
Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
questions from members of the House on this important issue. The British countryside is one of our nation's greatest treasures. From rolling hills to tranquil woodlands, it is beautiful and essential for both our well-being and health. That is why it is absolutely deplorable when waste criminals scar the landscape with complete disregard, damaging precious ecosystems and undermining our communities. This government is committed to tackling waste crime, which is a blight on local communities and the environment and damages legitimate businesses.

The Environment Agency has a wide range of powers, which it uses as an enforcement work against organised crime in waste and other environmental areas. It has strong powers of entry and evidence gathering. It is able to authorise mobile communications data, and it has authority to use covert human intelligence sources. It is one of only three non-police agencies to have access to police databases. The Joint Unit for Waste Crime, hosted by the Environment Agency, brings together the Environment Agency, HMRC, the National Crime Agency, the police, waste regulators from across the UK and other operational partners to share intelligence and tasking to disrupt and prevent serious organised waste crime.

The Environment Agency's Economic Crime Unit targets the financial motivation behind offending, and uses financial mechanisms to inhibit the ability of offenders, including organised crime groups, to operate. This government has also increased the Environment Agency's funding, including the amount available to tackle illegal waste operators after years of frozen budgets and real terms cuts. We have raised the budget for waste crime enforcement by 50% this year to £15.6 million, but this government plans to go further still to tighten the net on waste criminals, with policy and regulatory reforms to close loopholes exploited by them.

We are fundamentally reforming the waste carriers, brokers and dealers system, tightening waste permit exemptions and introducing digital waste tracking. And we are

**** Possible New Speaker ****

determined to clean up Britain and end the throwaway society. Calum Miller. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
16:59
Calum Miller Portrait Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to you and to Mr. Speaker, for granting this urgent question. Madam Deputy Speaker, I question. Madam Deputy Speaker, I recently knocked on the door of Billy Burnell, the chair of the Kidlington Angling Society in my constituency. Billy showed me photographs and videos that took my breath away. They showed the obscene scale of the illegal waste dump in my constituency. This site is approximately 150m long, ten metres wide and up to 12m high.

It really has to be seen to be believed. Over the weekend the situation has become much more urgent. Heavy rain has caused the River Cherwell to rise by four feet or so. Water now laps against the waste which can be seen floating towards the Cherwell. This incident highlights that organised criminal gangs are carefully planning operations to dump industrial waste in the countryside. They earn millions of pounds in illegal earnings without a thought for the health of people or animals, nor the damage to soil, water or air.

And I am deeply concerned that the Environment Agency is not equipped to deal with this unfolding environmental disaster. As an example, the EA recently informed noble Lords in the other place that there were six other sites of the scale of the disaster at Wood in Kent. Yet the site in my constituency was not on that list. So I have three questions for the Minister most urgently from my constituents. Will Ministers follow the example of the previous Secretary of State, who, on 22nd May 2024, issued a directive to the Environment Agency to clean up the illegal dump at Kent.

And will they issue a similar urgent directive for the clearance of the dump in my constituency before it is too late for the River Cherwell? Secondly, all Ministers undertake a root and branch review independent of the Department of the government's response to waste crime. And finally, in the meantime, does the Minister support calls from Liberal Democrats that in the most serious cases, the National Crime Agency should take over the investigation?
17:01
17:02
Helena Dollimore Portrait Helena Dollimore MP (Hastings and Rye, Labour )
-
-
And I thank the hon. Member for bringing this urgent question. As the Minister knows from her visit to my constituency last week, recently, millions of plastic beads washed up in my constituency. After initially denying any involvement, Southern Water has now admitted that they were responsible and they came from their wastewater treatment plant. Shame. This is a huge environmental catastrophe, not least because we know that these beads pose a serious risk to wildlife and we are awaiting further investigations about just how toxic they could be.

At my public meeting about this issue last week with over 100 residents, Southern Water admitted that the use of these beads is outdated and there are better modern methods. I recognise that she can't comment on the live investigation happening run by the Environment Agency, but would she agree with me that the Environment Agency must look at the use of these beads, and they must look at how we can prevent an environmental catastrophe like this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

ever happening again. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, my hon. Friend is a formidable and impressive and quite frankly, delighted and proud to be on the same side as her fighting on this particular issue. She has led an incredible campaign, and I want to incredible campaign, and I want to go and see these beads myself. And they're appalling. They're tiny little plastic beads, about so big
17:03
17:04
Neil Hudson Portrait Dr Neil Hudson MP (Epping Forest, Conservative)
-
-
Hudson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly, my thoughts are with those affected by the floods and the impacts of Storm Claudia. We cannot overstate the mental health impacts from these events. And I pay tribute to the emergency teams and volunteers for the work that they do when we need them most. Members across this House will all have incidents in their constituencies where fly tippers dump waste, and sadly, we too have seen serious cases in my constituency of Epping Forest. These incidents are a blight on communities and the shameless people who do it should be punished to the full extent of the law.

The Member for Bicester and Woodstock is right to raise the shocking illegal waste dump in his constituency, which has waste stacked over ten metres high, and the effects that will unfold on the environment, ecology and wildlife are positively frightening. The Labour's government action so far on dumping and fly tipping has been somewhat lacklustre, despite the fact that 36 of the 50 local authorities with the highest fly tipping rates are staggering, 72% are Labour controlled. So can I ask the Minister what are the government doing to help join up police forces to tackle this? And with huge catastrophic dumps? As we are discussing today in Oxfordshire, what support is the government giving the EA and the local authority, and will they work cross-government with the Home Office, Cabinet Office and MHCLG to tackle this? What analysis of reform are they proposing to the Environment Agency? Would they consider a review as we have proposed and with police numbers dropping under Labour, how are they proposing that rural and indeed urban police forces tackle fly tipping more effectively? And with regard to this particular catastrophic Oxfordshire case, is the government conducting an assessment of the potential public health and environmental impacts

**** Possible New Speaker ****

from this horrific waste dump. Thank you. I will point out to
17:05
17:06
17:07
17:07
Sarah Dyke Portrait Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Liberal Democrat spokesperson Sarah. Thank you, Madam.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

On an industrial. Scale is blighting rural communities across the country, communities across the country, costing the UK economy £1 billion a year. And it's even been described as the new narcotics from the as the new narcotics from the former CEO of the Environment Agency. The Environment Agency needs the resources to both needs the resources to both investigate the criminal activity leading to the waste dumping and prevent environmental damage and prevent environmental damage and toxic runoff, not just one or the other.

Waste crime is significantly other. Waste crime is significantly under-reported. Criminal activity is widespread, with little chance is widespread, with little chance of being prosecuted. So will the Minister confirm today whether her government will back Liberal government will back Liberal Democrat amendments in the other place to the Crime and Policing Bill that would designate serious Bill that would designate serious and organised waste crime as a strategic policy threat by establishing a National Action Plan. establishing a National Action Plan. Collect and publish waste crime data on a quarterly basis.

data on a quarterly basis. Establish an independent review into serious and organised waste crime, and will she support the crime, and will she support the National Crime Agency to prevent and effectively prosecute serious

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and effectively prosecute serious and organised waste crime? Thank you. And again I share the hon. Lady's anger at what's happening in our beautiful countryside. And we see this more and more evidence of illegal and more evidence of illegal dumping. So as I mentioned, the total budget for 2025, the total budget for 2025, the Environment Agency is and 26 has increased and includes £15.6 million for waste crime enforcement. And for waste crime enforcement. And this is a 50% increase. And overall, the Environment Agency has been able to increase its frontline criminal enforcement resource in criminal enforcement resource in the Joint Unit for Waste Crime Area and Environmental Crime Teams as well.

It has a weighed a wide range of powers, but of course we're always keen to look at what further could be done.
17:09
17:10
17:11
17:11
17:12
17:12
17:13
17:14
17:14
17:15
17:15
17:15
17:16
17:16
17:17
17:17
17:18
17:18
17:18
17:19
17:19
17:19
17:20
17:21
17:21
17:22
17:22
17:23
17:24
17:24
17:24
17:25
17:25
17:26
17:26
17:27
17:27
17:28
17:28
17:29
17:29
17:29
17:30
17:30
17:30
17:31
17:31
17:32
17:32
17:32
17:33
17:33
17:34
17:34
17:34
17:35
17:36
17:36
17:36
17:37
17:38
None Portrait Ministerial statement: Asylum Policy Statement
-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will make a statement about how we restore order and control to our borders. I do so as this government publishes the most significant reform to our migration system. In modern times. This country will always offer sanctuary country will always offer sanctuary to those fleeing danger. But we must also acknowledge that the world has changed and our asylum world has changed and our asylum system has not changed with it.

Our world is a more volatile and more world is a more volatile and more mobile place. Huge numbers are on the move, while some are refugees, the move, while some are refugees, others are economic migrants seeking to use and abuse our asylum seeking to use and abuse our asylum system. And even genuine refugees are passing through other safe countries searching for the most countries searching for the most attractive place to seek refuge. The burden that has fallen on this The burden that has fallen on this country has been heavy.

400,000 have sought asylum here in the last have sought asylum here in the last four years. Over 100,000 people now live in asylum accommodation, and live in asylum accommodation, and over half of refugees remain on benefits eight years after they have arrived to the British public have arrived to the British public who foot the bill. The system feels out of control and unfair. It feels that way because it is. The pace and scale of change has destabilised communities. It is making our country a more divided place.

There will never be a justification for the violence and racism of a minority. But if we fail to deal with this crisis, we will draw more people down a path that starts with anger and ends in hatred. I have no doubt about who we really are in this country. We are open, tolerant and generous. But the public rightly expect that we can determine who enters this country and who must leave, to maintain the generosity that allows us to provide sanctuary.

We must restore order and control rather than deal substantively with this problem. The last conservative government wasted precious years and £700 million on their failed Rwanda plan, with the lamentable result of just four volunteers removed from the country. As a result, they left us with the grotesque chaos of asylum seekers housed in hotels, shuttled around in taxis, with the taxpayer footing the bill. My predecessor as home secretary picked up this dreadful inheritance and rebuilt the foundations of a collapsed asylum system.

Decision making has been restored, with a backlog now 18% lower than when we entered office. Removals have increased, reaching nearly 50,000 under this government. Immigration enforcement has hit record levels with over 8000 arrests in the last year. The Border Security Bill is progressing through Parliament, and my predecessor struck a historic agreement with the French, which means small boat arrivals can now be sent back to France. These are vital steps, but we must go further. Today we have published Restoring Order and Control, a new statement on our asylum policy.

Its goals are twofold. Firstly, to reduce illegal arrivals into this country, and secondly, to increase removals of those with no right to be here. It starts by accepting an uncomfortable truth. While asylum claims fall across Europe, they are rising here. And that is because of the comparative generosity of our asylum offer when compared to so many of our European neighbours. This generosity is a factor that draws people to these shores on a path that runs through other safe countries.

Nearly 40% come on small boats and over perilous channel crossings, but a roughly equal number come here legally via a visitor work or study visa, and then go on to claim asylum. They do so because refugee status is the most generous route into this country. An initial grant lasts five years, which is then converted almost automatically into permanent settled status. In other European countries, things are done differently. In Denmark, refugee status is temporary and they provide safety and sanctuary until it is possible for a refugee to return home.

In recent years, asylum claims have hit a 40 year low, and now across Europe, countries are tightening their systems in similar ways. We must act to. We will do so by making refugee status temporary, not permanent. A grant of refugee status will last two and a half years, not five. It will be renewed only if it is impossible for a refugee to return home. Permanent settlement will now come at 20 years, not five. I know this country welcomes people who contribute, and for those who want to stay and are willing and able to, we will create a new work and study visa route solely for refugees with a quicker path to permanent settlement to encourage refugees into work.

We will also consult on removing benefits for those who are able to work, but choose not to, outside of the most exceptional circumstances, family reunion will not be possible, with a refugee only able to bring family over if they have joined a work and study route, and if qualifying tests are met. While over 50,000 were granted refugee status in the last year, more than 100,000 claimants and failed asylum seekers remain in taxpayer funded accommodation. And we know that criminal gangs use the prospect of free bed and board to promote their small boat crossings.

We have already announced that we will empty asylum hotels by the end of the Parliament, and we are exploring a number of large military sites as an alternative. We will now also remove the 2005 legislation that created a duty to support asylum seekers, reverting to a legal power to do so instead. While we will continue to support those who play by the rules, those who do not be that through criminality or antisocial behaviour can have their support removed.

We will also remove our duty to support those who have a right to work. It is right that those who do receive support pay for it if they can. So those with income or assets will have to contribute to the cost of their stay. This will end the absurdity that we currently experience, where an asylum seeker receiving £800 each month from his family and who had recently acquired an Audi, was receiving free housing at the taxpayer's expense, and the courts judge that we could do nothing about it.

Mr. speaker, these measures are designed to tackle the pull factors that draw people into this country, but reducing the number of arrivals is just half of the story. We must also enforce our rules and remove those who have no right to be here. This will mean restarting removals to countries where they have been paused. In recent months. We have begun voluntary removal of failed asylum seekers to Syria once again. However, there are still many failed asylum seekers here from Syria, most of whom fled a regime that has since been toppled.

Other countries are planning to enforce removals and we will follow suit. Where a failed asylum seeker cannot be returned home. We will also continue to explore the possibility of return hubs, with negotiations ongoing. We must remove those who have failed asylum claims, regardless of who they are. Today, we are not removing family groups, even when we know that their home country is perfectly safe. There are, for instance, around 700 Albanian families living in taxpayer funded accommodation having failed their asylum claims.

This is true despite an existing returns agreement and that Albania is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. So we will now begin the removal of families. Where possible, we will encourage a voluntary return, but where an enforced return is necessary, that is what we will do with a barrier to a return is not the individual nor the UK government, but the receiving country. We will take action. I can announce today that we have told Angola, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Namibia that if they do not comply with international rules and norms, we will impose visa penalties on them.

And I am sending a wider message here. Unless other countries heed this lesson, further sanctions will follow. Much of the delay in our removals, however, comes from the sclerotic nature of our own system. In March of this year, the appeals backlog stood at 51,000 cases. This government has already increased judicial sitting days, but reform is required. So we will create a new appeals body staffed by professional, independent adjudicators and we will ensure there is early legal representation available to advise claimants and ensure their issues are properly considered.

Cases with a low chance of success will be fast tracked, and claimants will have just one opportunity to claim and one to appeal. Ending the merry go round of claims and appeals that frustrate so many removals. While some barriers to removal are the result of process, others are substantive issues related to the law itself. There is no doubt that the expanded interpretation of parts of the European Convention on Human Rights has contributed. This is particularly true of article eight, the right to a Family life.

The courts have adopted an ever expanding interpretation of this right, and as a result, many people have been allowed to come to this country when they would otherwise have had no right to. And we have been unable to remove others when the case for doing so seems overwhelming. This includes cases like an arsonist sentenced to five years in prison, whose deportation was blocked on the grounds that his relationship with his sibling may suffer, and more than half of those detained are now delaying or blocking their removal by raising a last minute rights claim.

Article eight is a qualified right. That means we are not prevented from removing individuals or refusing an application to move to the UK if it is in the public interest to narrow article eight rights. We will therefore make three important changes in both domestic law and our immigration rules. Firstly, we will define what exactly a family is, narrowing this down to parents and their children. Secondly, we will define the public interest test. So the default becomes a removal or refusal, with article eight rights only permissible in the most exceptional circumstances.

Thirdly, we will tighten where article eight claims can be heard, ensuring only those who are living in the UK can lodge a claim rather than their family members overseas, and that all claims are heard first by the Home Office and not in a courtroom. We will also pursue international reform of a second element of the European Convention the application of article three, the prohibition on torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. We will never return anyone to be tortured in their home country, but the definition of degrading treatment has expanded into the realm of the ridiculous.

Today we have criminals we seek to deport but discover we cannot because the prisons in their home country have cells that are deemed too small, or even mental health provision that is not as good as our own. As article three is an absolute right, a public interest test cannot be applied. For that reason, we are seeking reform at the Council of Europe, and we do so alongside international partners who have raised similar concerns. But it is not just international law that binds us.

According to data from 2022, over 40% of those detained for removal claim they were modern day slaves. This well-intentioned law is being abused by those who seek to frustrate a legitimate removal. So I will bring forward legislation that tightens the modern slavery system to ensure that it protects those it was designed for, and not those who seek to abuse it. Taken together, Madam Deputy Speaker, these are significant reforms. They are designed to ensure our asylum system is fit for the modern world, and that we retain public consent for the very idea of providing refuge.

We will always be a country that offers protection to those fleeing peril, just as we did in recent years when Ukraine was invaded, when Afghanistan was evacuated, and when we repatriated Hong Kongers. For that reason, as order and control is restored, we will open new capped, safe and legal routes into this country. These will make sponsorship the primary means by which we resettle refugees, with voluntary and community organisations given greater involvement to both receive refugees and support them.

Working within caps set by government. We will also create a new route for displaced students to study in the UK, and another for skilled refugees to work here. And of course, we will always remain flexible to new crises across the world as they happen. I know the British people do not want to close the doors, but until we restore order and control, those who seek to divide us will grow stronger. It is our job as a Labour government to unite where there is division.

So we must now build an asylum system for the world, as it is one that restores order and control, one that opens safe and legal routes to those fleeing danger across the world, and one that sustains our commitment to providing refuge for this generation and those to come. I know the country we are. We are open, tolerant and generous. We are the Greater Britain that those on this side of the House believe in, not the littler England that some would wish we would become.

These reforms are designed to bring unity

**** Possible New Speaker ****

where others seek to divide. Madam speaker, I commend this statement to the House. Leader of the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Leader of the. Opposition, Kemi Badenoch. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I
17:54
Kemi Badenoch Portrait Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Madam Deputy Speaker, can I thank the Home Secretary for advance sight of his statement, most of which I read in the Sunday Telegraph actually. But I am pleased that she is bringing forward measures to crack down on illegal immigration. It's not enough, but it is a start. And it's also a change. It's a change from her previous position in opposition of a general amnesty for illegal migrants. But I do want to praise the new Home Secretary. Madam Deputy speaker, she's bringing fresh energy and a clearer focus to this problem.

And she has got more done in 70 days in the job than her predecessor did in a year. She seems to get what many on the benches behind refuse to accept. She is right to say that if we fail to deal with the crisis, we will draw more people to a path that starts with anger and ends in hatred. But we will also allow our English Channel to operate as an open route into this country. For anyone prepared to risk their lives and pay criminal gangs.

That is. This is not fair. It is not fair on British citizens. It is not fair on those who come here legally. And it is not fair on those in genuine need who are pushed to the back of the queue because the system is overwhelmed. Anyone who cannot see by now that simply tinkering with the current system isn't going to fix. This problem is either living in La La land or being wilfully obstructive. It is a shame that it has taken Labour a year in office to realise there is a borders crisis, as I don't know why they're chuntering.

What was their first act in government? Her predecessor's first act was to scrap the Rwanda plan, which was already. Yes. They're cheering. It was already starting to act as a deterrent before it even got off the ground. And before it started, Labour threw away all of our hard

**** Possible New Speaker ****

work, the taxpayers money. They're the ones who have wasted their money, not us. Yeah. But this statement, Madam Deputy

**** Possible New Speaker ****

But this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, is an admission that her predecessor's Immigration and Borders bill will not work. But I'm Borders bill will not work. But I'm glad to see them now. Changing course. The powers they're using in this bill, they all voted down when we were in government. They wouldn't be able to do that if we hadn't got it through. None of them hadn't got it through. None of them know the work that was done. They're just cheering nonsensically. But we know what has happened since they came into office.

In fact, the they came into office. In fact, the Home Secretary will know that in the 70 days that she has been in the 70 days that she has been in office, 10,000 people have crossed the channel. And in the last year we have seen record levels of we have seen record levels of asylum claims. The problem has got worse since Labour came into office and is getting even worse by the and is getting even worse by the day. But I am afraid to tell her that what she is announcing is not going to work on its own.

And some going to work on its own. And some of these measures will in fact take us backwards. I say that to her us backwards. I say that to her with no ill will, and I hope she believes me when I say I genuinely want her to succeed. Because on want her to succeed. Because on this side of the House we are speaking from experience. We know how difficult this is. It is, we are, we are. And we're not going to take any lectures from the people who voted down every single measure to control immigration.

Some of the measures she is announcing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, are undoubtedly positive steps, baby steps, but positive nonetheless. We welcome making refugee status temporary and we welcome removing the last Labour government's legislation that created a duty to support asylum seekers. She's right to do that. However, some of what she is announcing simply does not go far enough. On this side of the House. We believe that anyone who arrives illegally, especially from safe countries, should be deported and banned from claiming asylum.

Does the Home Secretary agree that anyone who comes to this country illegally should be deported? I'd like to know. I think the country would like to know, because this announcement means that some people who arrive will be allowed to stay. They just need to wait 20 years before getting permanent settlement. That does not remove the pull factor. But the main problem is that for as long as the UK is in the illegal immigrants and those exploiting our system will use human rights laws to block anything she does to solve this.

I know this because I saw it happen again and again over the last four years. I know she is seeing it too. We even saw it this year with the Prime Minister's 1 in 1 out scheme, which has seen people return to France come back yet again on small boats. I can guarantee that her plan to reinterpret article eight will not work. We tried this already. Strasbourg and UK case law will prevail. And I agree with her that the definition of degrading treatment is over interpreted.

But renegotiating article three international internationally will take years. Years we don't have. If it were even possible. But the fact is it isn't. We know this because a small group of EU countries tried this earlier, and they were dismissed by the Secretary General of the Council of Europe. Her government did nothing to support them. So I'm not convinced that it's the Prime Minister's negotiating skills that are going to sort out that problem. The fact is, we have looked at this issue from every possible direction, and the reality is that any plan that doesn't include leaving the Echr as a necessary step is wasting time.

We don't have. Just like their plans to smash the gangs or the 1 in 1 out policy, it is time wasting and it is doomed to fail because of lawfare. We have seen this all before. The tough measures will be challenged in the courts and blocked. The new legal route she's talking about will be exploited, and the numbers arriving on our shores and disappearing into the black economy will keep on rising. If the Home Secretary is serious about reducing these numbers, and I do believe that she is, she must be bolder.

She must take steps to deter illegal immigrants from coming to Britain and deport them as soon as they arrive. Our borders plan does just that, and I know that she has studied it in detail. I've seen the looks. I know that she knows that we would leave the EU and Iccat to stop the Strasbourg courts from frustrating deportations, that we establish a new removals force to make sure all illegal arrivals are deported. We would end the use of immigration tribunals, judicial review and legal aid in immigration cases.

Those are the things that are slowing us down. And we will sign returns agreements that are backed by visa sanctions to ensure we send illegal arrivals back to their place of origin. I welcome what she's talking about on Angola and Namibia, but all of us in this House know that they are not the ones creating the biggest problems. We need to be bold, serious and unafraid to do what the British people demand. Secure our borders. That is what is in our borders plan. So I urge her to take me up on my offer to work together, not just because we have some ideas she might find useful, but because, judging by her own backbenchers reaction today, she may find our votes come in handy.

Earlier this year, we saw what happened when the government tried to make changes to the welfare bill. The Prime Minister was defeated by his own backbenchers and ended up passing legislation guaranteeing that more money would be spent on welfare. And it doesn't appear that his grip on the party has improved since then. So you can be sure that the MPs behind the Home Secretary are already plotting to block any serious changes she tries to make. We can help her with that. Why are they shaking their heads? We've seen them do it time and time again before.

I would say to the Home Secretary, this is a genuine offer in the national interest. We will not play the same game they did, voting things down for no reason. But she must be clear with the House on these questions. How many people will be able to take advantage of the new work and study visa route? And what will the level of the cap be? Will it be 10,000 people? Will it be 100,000 people? The government has separately confirmed they will allow Gazan students to bring dependants.

We oppose this. But can she clarify how the government will ensure that people brought to the UK from a territory under Hamas control are not a risk to our security? Is she finds that the Human Rights Act in Echr prevent her from enacting these proposals? Will she use primary legislation to resolve this? Has Lord Hermer agreed? By her own admission three weeks ago, the Home Office is not yet fit for purpose. So why then, are we creating the new legal routes for the Home Office to run? And will she take me up on this serious, genuine offer to meet and discuss how we can work together to resolve this asylum crisis? Yes or no? I urge her to put party politics aside.

Meet with me and my shadow home Secretary. Let's find a way to work together.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Order! I was very generous with time. Then, Home Secretary. Yay! Thank you.
18:02
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yay! Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Leader of the I thank the Leader of the Opposition for her her response to the statement. I see that the Shadow Home Secretary has been subbed out after his performance at Home Office orals. But whether it's the shadow Home Secretary or the Leader of the Opposition herself, I'm very happy to take on the Conservative Party any day of the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Week and let me and let me start. By saying we will not be taking any lessons from those opposite on.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

any lessons from those opposite on. How to run an effective. Migration system. Or indeed an asylum system, because I'm afraid asylum system, because I'm afraid to say to the Leader of the Opposition, she knows that her party in government gave up on party in government gave up on governing altogether. They gave up on making asylum decisions, creating the huge backlog that it creating the huge backlog that it was left to this government to start to deal with. And in our first 18 months in office, removals first 18 months in office, removals are up 23% compared to their last 18 months in office.

So I will take 18 months in office. So I will take no lessons from anyone opposite on anything to do with our asylum system, because they simply gave up system, because they simply gave up and went for an expensive gimmick that cost £700 million return for that cost £700 million return for volunteers and was doomed to failure from the start. I will also failure from the start. I will also say, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition had rather a lot to say about the European Convention say about the European Convention on Human Rights.

I don't recall the members opposite ever bringing forward any legislation to deal with the application of article eight, the qualified right to a private life in this House. There was never a bill that sought to clarify the way that article eight should apply in our domestic legislation, or indeed in our immigration rules. So I'm not going to take any lessons from the people that just never bothered to do that in the first place. It is this government that is rolling up our sleeves, dealing with the detailed, substantive issues that we face and thinking of proper, workable solutions to those matters.

And I just say on article three, I think the position on article three has changed across Europe. I was over at the Council of Europe in my previous role as Lord Chancellor, just before the summer recess earlier on this year, and I was struck by the sheer range of other European partners who want to have this conversation. It is important, I think, that the British government leans into that conversation and seeks to work in collaboration with our European partners. The one thing that will not work is simply saying, we're going to come out of the European Convention altogether.

That is not and will never be the policy of this government, because we believe reform can be pursued, but that this is an important convention, not least because it actually underpins some of our own returns agreements, including the one with France. And so she talks about how many years, she talks about how many years it would take for us to think about reform of the convention, but it would also take just as many years as she well knows to start renegotiating lots of international agreements, which would be affected by us coming out of the convention.

So I'm afraid her solution once again will not work. And if she wanted to work together in the national interest and look. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm always up for working in the national interest, because nothing actually matters more to me than holding our own country together and uniting our country. But there could have started by voting for the borders Bill, which is currently going through the House, and which they have voted against at every opportunity. So forgive me if I don't take this newfound conversion to working together in the national interest with much seriousness, because their own track record suggests it should not be taken seriously and not be taken seriously.

Madam Deputy Speaker sums up the position of the Conservative Party. These are the people that left this government an abject mess to clear up. They gave up on governing. They gave up on running an effective asylum system, and now they turn up without so much as an apology to the British public, thinking that they've got

**** Possible New Speaker ****

anything to say that anyone wants to hear. Before I call the first
18:06
18:07
18:08
18:09
Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

spokesperson Max Wilkinson. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is right that the government. Is looking for ways to bring.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is looking for ways to bring. Order to the asylum system. It was left in total disarray by the Conservatives. Sadly, the the Conservatives. Sadly, the government has been too slow to act. Britain has a long and proud history of responding with compassion to people fleeing

**** Possible New Speaker ****

unimaginable horrors. That should continue. In a way that is fair and sustainable. So we welcome some of sustainable. So we welcome some of what the Home Secretary has said on that score. But what is not helpful is the Home Secretary claiming that is the Home Secretary claiming that the country is being torn apart by immigration, acknowledging the challenges facing our nation is one challenges facing our nation is one thing, but stoking division by using immoderate language is quite using immoderate language is quite another.

I will, however, welcome news about safe and legal routes. This is something the Liberal Democrats have called for for some time since they were scrapped by the Conservatives, leading to more small boat crossings. But we do small boat crossings. But we do have some concerns about the far reaching detail behind these proposals, which seems to be proposals, which seems to be missing. The Home Secretary is revoking the legal duty to provide asylum seekers with accommodation, and says asylum seekers should support themselves and contribute to our society.

But she is still banning them from working so they banning them from working so they can support themselves contributing to our society. That makes no sense to our society. That makes no sense at all. She relies a lot on Denmark. As an example, Denmark lets asylum seekers work after six months, so will she. And can she guarantee that the burden to house asylum seekers won't fall on already seekers won't fall on already struggling local councils? And can she guarantee that we won't see a wholesale transfer of asylum seekers from hotels to the streets? And if the Minister for Border Security and Asylum announced to the media, asylum seekers could have jewellery confiscated.

Is the Home Secretary doing this to raise money or to deter people? And either way, does she acknowledge that many British people will see it as unnecessary and cruel? State sponsored robbery will certainly not fix a system that costs taxpayers £6 million every day in hotel bills. If the government plans to keep its promise to end hotel use, it must also process the claims of the 90,000 backlog of asylum seekers, something the Liberal Democrats have a plan to do within six months.

Using Nightingale style processing centres. Does the Home Secretary seriously believe that an overstretched Home Office, which has yet to clear the existing backlog, can also undertake reviews of every refugee status? Every two and a half years? The UK must continue to lead international efforts to manage large migratory flows, and because the flow of people comes from Europe, she will need to work with the EU on a solution. The Oxford Migration Observatory has identified a clear Brexit effect that means people refused asylum in the EU.

Now make a second attempt here, a consequence of Brexit delivered by the Conservatives and the hon. Member for Clacton too. The Minister refused to answer earlier whether Brexit has harmed our immigration and asylum system. So I'll ask the Home Secretary now. Does she think that Brexit has made it easier or more difficult for this country to control its borders and asylum system? And does she think reductions in overseas development spending will reduce or increase migratory flows? We have already made it very clear that we think leaving the EU will make no difference to securing our borders and will tear hard won rights away from British people.

It's encouraging that the Home Secretary has said that is not part of the government's plan. Finally, we urge the government to tread carefully, to act with fairness, to act with efficiency and to act with compassion for local communities in the UK who want this resolved, but

**** Possible New Speaker ****

also for asylum seekers to. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
18:13
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman gentleman, I wish I had the privilege of walking around this privilege of walking around this country and not seeing the division that the issue of migration and asylum system is creating across this country. Unlike him, unfortunately, I am the one that is regularly called a and told to go back home. It is I who knows, through my personal experience and that of my constituents, just how divisive the issue of asylum has become in our country.

And I do say to him, I wish it were possible to say that there isn't a problem here, that there's nothing to see, and that it is all, in fact, just extremist right wing talking points. But this system is broken, and it is incumbent on all Members of Parliament to acknowledge how badly broken the system is, and to make it a moral mission to fix this system so that it stops creating the division that we all see. And I do say to him, I do not think it is acceptable or appropriate for people in this place to not acknowledge the real experience of those who sit outside of this house.

We are supposed to be here to reflect that experience in this House, and I hope that he will approach the debates that we will no doubt have on all of these measures in that in that spirit, also accused this government of being too slow to act. I do have to say to him, removals of of those who have no right to be in our country are up by 23% in the first 18 months of this Labour government, compared to the last 18 months of that former Tory government.

That is a government that is getting on with the job. We have made 11,000 enforcement raids, 8000 arrests and over 1000 people with no right to be in this country as a result of those raids have been removed from this country. This is a government that has been getting on with the job, and this is just the next phase of our work as we deal with the broken migration system that we inherited from those opposite. He said that he thought that whilst people who are waiting on their claim should be given the right to work, I think he knows that would be a huge pull factor and increase the number of channel crossings rather than decrease them.

That would be our experience in this country. That is why we are not pursuing that policy. But what we have said is for those who are granted refugee status in this country and who can and want to, they will be able to switch into the protection work and study route so they can start contributing to society. That will help them to integrate, and it will help the communities that they are living in as well. He knows full well that it is not the policy of this government to confiscate jewellery from those who are who, who are accessing asylum accommodation.

What I would say to him, though, is asylum accommodation is provided to asylum seekers by British taxpayers. And it is right that if people have high value assets that they contribute to the cost of that asylum accommodation. I gave in my speech the example of of a man who was in supported asylum accommodation, paid for by his taxpayers and by mine, who was receiving £800 a month from his family and who had enough money to acquire himself an Audi. I think it is right that the British state should be able to say to such an individual, contribute.

We're not saying that we would take everything away and leave that individual destitute, but I think contribution is a fair principle here, and I would be very disappointed to discover that the Liberal Democrats do not support contribution when people can afford to do so to the cost of their asylum accommodation. And Madam Deputy Speaker, he left his remarks on Brexit. I don't have any more to say about that. I'm living in the world as it is today. If he has things to say, I'm sure the House will continue to hear about them.
18:16
18:16
18:17
18:18
18:18
18:19
18:19
18:20
18:21
18:21
18:22
18:22
18:23
18:24
18:25
18:25
18:26
18:27
18:27
18:28
18:29
18:29
18:30
18:30
18:31
18:32
18:32
18:33
18:33
18:34
18:34
18:35
18:35
18:36
18:37
18:38
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
I thank my hon. Friend for her comments as well as her question. What we are doing in relation to the refugee status is moving from a situation where it's effectively permanent and the most attractive of all routes into the country to a more temporary status. I will make sure that the administration and the funding is available to run the new system as it is being designed. But I do say to her, that is why we are also creating the protection work and study route, because we believe that the best integration outcomes come when people are in work and able to contribute, and that is how we will retain popular support for having an asylum system.

So people will transfer, we hope, into the protection work and study route. But of course, if they do not under the protection model, they will still receive sanctuary from this country. It will be more regularly reviewed. I hope we can all agree that we're a country is safe. For an individual to return to a return should, in the normal run of things, take place. But of course, if people have switched into a work route and are making a contribution, we will set out plans in the coming days about how they could earn their way to an earlier settlement longer than what is the available to people today, and still longer than what will be available to people on safe and legal routes, but shorter than

**** Possible New Speaker ****

those who remain on the protection model? Nick Timothy. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
18:39
18:40
18:40
18:41
18:42
18:43
18:43
18:44
18:44
18:45
18:46
18:46
18:47
18:48
18:49
18:50
18:50
18:51
Carla Denyer Portrait Carla Denyer MP (Bristol Central, Green Party)
-
-
Let me tell her I couldn't care less what any other political party has to say about these matters. I don't care what other politicians are saying on the television. I don't care what other activists are don't care what other activists are saying either. I care about the fact that I have an important job to do, and I can see that there is to do, and I can see that there is a problem here that needs to be fixed. If it was possible to pretend there wasn't a problem because there wasn't one, I wouldn't be saying there is one.

There is a genuine problem in this asylum system, and it needs someone to sort it out, not to pretend it doesn't exist. Which I'm afraid is one of the things that fuels the division in the first place. My own division in the first place. My own constituents since I have been Home Secretary have been telling me directly of abuses in the visa directly of abuses in the visa system that they can see with the evidence of their own eyes, long before any officials in Whitehall have ever clocked on to those have ever clocked on to those things.

It is a moral responsibility when you see something broken to fix it and to make sure that the fact that it's make sure that the fact that it's broken is not fuelling division in our country. And let me also say to her, it is Green Party politicians her, it is Green Party politicians who are absolute hypocrites because they talk great language in here and then oppose asylum accommodation in their own constituencies.
18:52
18:52
18:53
18:54
18:54
18:54
18:55
18:55
18:57
18:58
18:59
19:00
19:00
19:01
19:02
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Secretary. Well, I would encourage my hon. Friend to look at the detail of the Asylum Policy Statement on our Asylum Policy Statement on our intentions in relation to the protection work and study route, which in future will be the route by which refugees can contribute and earn their way to settlement in this country. And of course, it is the express intention of this policy statement to disincentivize people coming through dangerous channel crossings and to incentivise and to push people towards what will, over time, become more generous, safe and legal routes of entry into this country with more privileged status when it comes to the earning of permanent settlement.

Let me say to her on failed asylum seeking families, because I think that is the important context that was missing from her question. There are 700 Albanian families at the moment who have made asylum claims. Those asylum claims have failed, and the only reason they have not been removed from the country is because of the policies around not removing families. That is to say, parents with their children. We are not going to separate parents and their children, but we are going to consult on the removal of support and how we effectively and safely ensure that those individuals are returned.

But we will, of course, want to see most of those people

**** Possible New Speaker ****

return voluntarily. Instead. Liz Saville-Roberts.
19:04
19:04
19:05
19:06
19:06
19:06
19:07
19:07
19:08
19:09
19:10
19:10
19:10
19:11
19:12
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Well, let me just say to Policy statement because he will Policy statement because he will know, as is the position in relation to our discussions with the Ukrainian government. These individuals are welcome in our individuals are welcome in our country so that we can keep them safe. They are not classed as refugees because they are here temporarily on that scheme. We will always uphold our obligations under that scheme. We supported it in opposition as well. He is right on opposition as well.

He is right on the point about rapid decisions. It's important that decisions made at first instance, but also through at first instance, but also through an appeals process, are of high quality. That is one of the ways that we have to make sure that they that we have to make sure that they don't get constantly appealed. But our current system means that even though we've made huge progress on decreasing the backlog on initial initial decisions, the appeals backlog has grown. And over time, backlog has grown.

And over time, as people sit in the appeals queue, more rights are accrued and unlike any other type of legal order in any other type of legal order in this country. The order to remove to leave this country being not complied with still allows people complied with still allows people to accrue more rights. In the interim, we do not run a good and effective appeal system at the moment. It's why we're going to moment. It's why we're going to create a new one. But I can assure him that at its heart will be early legal advice, truly independent legal advice, truly independent adjudicators making the decisions, but doing so in a way that allows them to fast track claims that have a low chance of success.

Make sure that the right decision is made quickly. One claim, one appeal with a certain outcome at the end, not subject to years and years of a merry go round around the courts.
19:14
19:15
19:15
19:15
19:16
19:17
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Home Secretary well, let me tell him. Firstly, there will be a full equality impact assessment for all of these measures in the usual way. of these measures in the usual way. And as the consultations take place and as the legislation is drafted and then debated in this House, I'm sure all of the individuals that he has said Will has mentioned will have their say. I would expect them to as well. I would just gently remind him that when we're talking about the asylum system today, we're not just talking about those who arrive illegally on small boats.

We're also talking about people who arrive on visitor visas, on student visas, and on work visas. Who, the minute those visas come to an end, immediately claim asylum. We know that the relative generosity of that route, the effective automatic permanent settlement after five years, is one of the things that attracts that behaviour. It is right that we clamp down on that and disincentivize people trying to stay in this country in that way, and instead incentivise people who will come through safe and legal routes.

As I say to him, as we get order and control in the system, the safe and legal routes will start relatively modest, but I do anticipate them growing more generous and growing over time

**** Possible New Speaker ****

because this country is fundamentally open, tolerant and generous. Sammy Wilson Madam speaker.
19:18
19:19
19:20
19:20
19:21
19:21
19:22
19:23
19:23
19:25
19:25
19:26
19:27
19:27
19:28
19:28
19:28
19:29
19:29
19:29
19:30
19:31
19:31
19:32
19:32
19:33
19:33
19:33
19:34
19:35
19:35
19:36
19:37
19:37
19:37
19:38
19:38
19:39
19:40
19:41
19:41
19:42
19:43
19:43
19:44
19:45
19:45
19:45
19:45
19:46
19:46
19:47
19:47
19:48
19:48
19:49
19:50
19:50
19:51
Shabana Mahmood Portrait Rt Hon Shabana Mahmood KC MP, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Ladywood, Labour)
-
-
Well, firstly, he does mention compassion and I would say to him that the compassion of our reforms will be reflected in the safe and legal routes where we will accept refugees into our country through a community sponsorship model, resettle and integrate them successfully. That is what will bear the load of fulfilling our international obligations. And I know our people across our country will be proud to do so because compassion is he is right, a fundamental value of all of our people.

But so is fairness and contribution. And taken together, these reforms, I believe, strike the right balance. And what I can say to him on the appeal system is it's completely shot to pieces at the moment. It's riven with backlogs. Even increasing judicial sitting days does not make the difference. I think it's absolutely appropriate that we design a new appeal system, independent, with early legal advice available right at the start, and where it is proper for the government to set the framework for the speed at which cases can be heard, including fast tracking those claims that have no chance of success or are from countries which have low grant rates in the first place.

He will know that listing at the moment within the current system is a matter for the independent judiciary. We would never seek to interfere with that, but with a new appeal system, we as a government will be able to set the framework for the speed at which cases are heard, as well as the provision of legal advice at the start. So we

**** Possible New Speaker ****

have one claim, one appeal and process. Right. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I.
19:52
19:53
19:53
19:54
19:54
19:55
19:56
19:56
19:56
19:57
19:57
19:57
19:58
19:58
19:59
19:59
20:00
20:01
20:01
20:02
20:02
20:02
20:03
20:04
20:04
20:04
20:05
20:05
20:06
20:07
20:08
Seema Malhotra Portrait Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Committee of the whole House on the biodiversity beyond National Jurisdiction Bill, before turning Jurisdiction Bill, before turning to the detail of the clauses and the amendments in my name, I want to begin by underlining why it is so important that this House sends a clear signal today, by progressing this legislation. This bill will, along with subsequent secondary legislation, enable the United Kingdom to implement obligations in the United Nations biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. Agreement into UK law and enable us to move towards ratification of this historic agreement.

The House may also have seen that the BBNJ agreement was recognised by the Prince of Wales Earthshot Prize Committee last week, which is a testament to the broad support for it. The BBNJ agreement is the culmination of nearly two decades of international negotiations. The agreement covers roughly two thirds of the world's ocean, which is home to ecosystems that regulate our climate, support fisheries, drive weather patterns, and sustain the livelihoods of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

millions around the world. I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. Minister and such an important

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister and such an important subject, and I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. I've been asked to ask those that I been asked to ask those that I represent involved in fishing. Does the Minister not agree that the fact that the biodiversity Bill and the international treaty implements will affect the fishing industry primarily through the creation of primarily through the creation of MPAs and the imposition of stricter environmental impact assessments, which means that engagement with which means that engagement with our fishing sector is essential.

And can the Minister please confirm that the viability of fishing and food security will be a priority for this government? Thank you,

**** Possible New Speaker ****

thank you. I thank the hon. Member for his contribution and he will know from conversations we've had previously that we do continue to engage with the fishing industry on on all the fishing industry on on all areas of policy. And he will know that in relation to this bill, that that in relation to this bill, that fishing does fall outside of the scope of this bill. But it is scope of this bill. But it is important that we continue to maintain dialogue as as I know he maintain dialogue as as I know he understands is important to the government.

I will give way.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Jeremy Corbyn giving way. I welcome. This bill. And. Support this. Bill.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

And it is an important step forward. And it's a shame that it wasn't passed before the election, when it could have been in the in when it could have been in the in the wash up of the last Parliament in the context of this bill, could she assure us that the government she assure us that the government will provide the resources necessary to ensure that the law we're going to enact becomes we're going to enact becomes effective, and that the UN agencies are also sufficiently funded to make sure that it does become an make sure that it does become an effective piece of protection of the natural world and the oceans

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that we all rely on. Okay. I thank I thank the hon. Member

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank I thank the hon. Member for the right hon. Member for his contribution. And also to make the contribution. And also to make the point that, as he will have seen and I know he studies the Bill closely, that many of the ways in closely, that many of the ways in which we're looking to implement what will be our obligations are what will be our obligations are also in line with a lot of existing obligations. And where we have had discussions with scientists and discussions with scientists and others involved.

It is it has been, I think, quite important to hear from them that there shouldn't be extra burdens and we should be looking to how we move forward together. And I think I'll make also this point in relation to his question, that when we are able to ratify the agreement, what will be important is that we then are a party to the Conference of Parties and are able to participate in how decisions will be made in the future, and that will also be important for understanding how efficiently and effectively and at lowest additional resource requirements that we can incorporate those decisions into, into the UK.

And I thank him for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that contribution. I will give them. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I welcome this bill giving way, and I welcome this bill for its enhancement of biodiversity and protection of our oceans and our natural world. Could she outline how the bill will also help

**** Possible New Speaker ****

outline how the bill will also help to unlock innovation in marine science? I thank my hon. Friend for that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Indeed, I will come on to that in my remarks, but he makes a that in my remarks, but he makes a very good point. And actually, what ratifying the agreement will do will also make it easier to have will also make it easier to have the benefits sharing from research that goes on. And in that way, we'll actually be able to share we'll actually be able to share that research more widely in in a more efficient way, be able to support innovation by others who support innovation by others who may not be able to do that research themselves, but will be able to then look to where there can be innovations based on that research.

And that's a very, very important And that's a very, very important part of the benefits of of this bill. If I could continue my bill. If I could continue my remarks, the BBNJ bill, as I said, is the culmination of nearly two decades of international negotiations, and the agreement represents a one in a once in a represents a one in a once in a generation step towards moving forwards in ocean governance, ensuring that areas beyond national jurisdiction are managed sustainably, transparently and equitably.

And through this bill, the United Kingdom will be able to play its full part in that effort. It will allow our scientists, our companies, our research institutions to participate confidently in the new frameworks on marine genetic resources to contribute to the frameworks to contribute to the development of of area based management tools, and to meet international standards on environmental impact assessments in areas beyond national jurisdiction. Now, Royal Assent early next year, subject to time in the House, will place the UK in a strong position to ratify the agreement and to take its seat at the first conference of the parties expected to be in the second half of 2026.

And it is vital that the UK is at that table now. Turning now to the structure

**** Possible New Speaker ****

of the bill, the bill. I will give way very briefly. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm grateful to the.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister for giving way as she speaks about the importance of the UK taking global leadership. So I really welcome this bill today to complement it. Will the Secretary of State show global leadership by of State show global leadership by announcing a new international taskforce dedicated specifically to protecting at least 30% of the Atlantic Ocean by 2030?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Atlantic Ocean by 2030? Well thank you. I thank my I thank the hon. Member for her thank the hon. Member for her comments. I think in terms of a specific request, as she's outlined, specific request, as she's outlined, she'll know that that is outside of the scope of this bill. But what the scope of this bill. But what she will be aware of is that the measures in this bill will be measures in this bill will be significantly protecting the world's ocean.

As I have said. The agreement covers roughly two thirds of the world's ocean. And indeed, we look to our responsibilities in we look to our responsibilities in all areas of our work internationally to do all we can for the environment around the for the environment around the world. And I thank her for for that contribution. If I could, if I just could make a bit of progress, I, I thank him for his patience. The bill is divided into five parts. Parts two, three and four align directly with three operational pillars of the BBNJ agreement.

Marine genetic resources, area based management tools, and environmental impact assessments. I will speak in this contribution. Madam chair, to the three government amendments tabled in my in my name and speak about the clauses. But I will leave addressing the amendments tabled by the opposition to my subsequent closing speech, so that I've had an opportunity to hear the contributions from the opposition frontbench. But if I could speak first about part one, this sets out the definitions which underpin the rest of the Bill and for the benefit of the House, as these will be discussed at some length today.

These definitions include areas beyond national jurisdiction which comprise both the high seas waters beyond exclusive economic zones and the area of the seabed and subsoil beyond the limits of national jurisdiction. Marine genetic resources are defined as any marine material containing functional units of heredity with actual or potential value. These definitions mirror the agreement and ensure consistency between domestic law and our international obligations, and clause 20 also provides for definitions for terms used in the BBNJ Bill that are not defined elsewhere in the Bill.

Part two on Marine Genetic Resources. Clauses 2 to 10 implement the provisions of the agreement relating to Marine Genetic Resources. These provisions promote transparency around the collection and utilisation of marine genetic resources of areas beyond national jurisdiction and associated digital sequence information, and provide the building blocks for future benefit sharing. Clauses two and three create reporting obligations for individuals collecting marine genetic resources using UK craft, and for those utilising these resources or associated digital sequence information.

Information must be provided to the Secretary of State before and after collection and information about the results of utilisation should be provided in accordance with the schedule. Clause four provides that the Secretary of State may transmit to the BBNJ clearinghouse mechanism. The information provided on collection and utilisation, unless it is protected from disclosure under domestic law, and this. These clauses are designed to implement the UK's obligation on information sharing with the clearinghouse mechanism, facilitating transparency and helping us deliver on our obligations, whilst also protecting information that is not to be shared now.

Clauses 5 to 7 impose duties on those managing repositories holding marine genetic resources from areas beyond national jurisdiction or databases of digital sequence. Information on those resources. They must ensure that samples or data can be identified as originating from areas beyond national jurisdiction. Provide access and submit biannual biennial reports. Clause eight sets out exceptions from the requirements of part two of the Bill with respect to fishing and fishing related activities, military activities and military vessels and and craft and aircraft, as well as anything done in Antarctica, including its marine genetic resources and digital sequence.

Information on those resources. And the House will be aware that this is because the Southern Ocean is governed by the Antarctic Treaty System, and that was part of the debate that we had at Second Reading. Now, clause nine provides the Secretary of State with regulation making powers, including those necessary to implement the UK's future obligations under part two of the agreement. Given that the conference of the parties may adopt future further measures once the agreement enters into force, these powers are essential to ensure that the UK can respond in a timely and appropriate manner.

The clause also allows for provision for for any enforcement of those requirements imposed by or under part two of the Bill in relation to these measures. It is perhaps also helpful to say that we will be looking to make sure that there is ample time for scrutiny of additional measures that may be brought in under secondary legislation. Now. Finally, clause ten requires guidance to be published in relation to the above mentioned provisions on marine genetic resources.

These will be prepared by the National Focal Point in the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and will provide practical illustrations to help institutions and researchers to understand the requirements placed upon them. The guidance developed will also be laid before Parliament and taken together, these measures create a clear, proportionate and internationally aligned system that allows UK researchers to continue their world leading work with confidence, meeting the requirements of the bill and in turn allowing the UK to meet its obligations under the BBNJ agreement.

Now moving on to part three area based management tools. I will give way very briefly.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Just very briefly on the Antarctic Treaty, which was long and hard fought for in this House and hard fought for in this House and other places, I think has been very important and generally speaking, very successful. But speaking, very successful. But there are issues about increasing access to Antarctic and the pollution that causes and the need pollution that causes and the need to clean up after the substantial number of visitors that go there at the present time. Is she confident the present time.

Is she confident that the resources will be available to ensure that the Antarctic Treaty is fully adhered

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to? I thank I thank the right hon.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank I thank the right hon. Member for his comments, and he he Member for his comments, and he he will be aware that the UK also made a declaration on the on the a declaration on the on the signature of the BBNJ agreement, stating that the Antarctic Treaty stating that the Antarctic Treaty System comprehensively addresses the legal and political and environmental considerations that are unique to that region, and provides a comprehensive framework provides a comprehensive framework for the international management of the Antarctic, and it is important to recognise it is also about the to recognise it is also about the international management of the Antarctic to which we are obviously committed.

As the international community, and I thank him for putting his comments and into the debate today. If I could just make some further progress in relation to part three, clauses 11 to 13 implement the provisions relating to area based management tools, including marine protected areas, a designated to areas beyond national jurisdiction. Clause 11 contains provision for the Secretary of State to be able to make regulations to implement decisions adopted by the BBNJ conference of the parties under part three of the agreement, many activities under UK jurisdiction or control in areas beyond national jurisdiction, such as fishing, are already regulated domestically and where existing powers suffice, the clause 11 power will not be needed.

However, where new measures are adopted by the conference of the parties, where they require additional controls or restrictions. This clause ensures that the UK has the necessary legislative mechanisms to comply, and clause 12 sets out the parliamentary procedure for regulations made under clause 11. Clause 13 provides a power for the Secretary of State to issue directions to UK craft without the need for secondary legislation in order to implement emergency procedures adopted by the conference of the parties, as emergency procedures may require immediate action to prevent serious harm to marine biodiversity, regulations alone may not provide sufficient responsiveness.

And this clause enables swift operational steps such as directing vessels to avoid a particular area. This clause is modelled on existing direction, making powers available to the Secretary of State's Representative under schedule three A of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, and by nature of of any scenarios that could arise. It is. It is a power limited in scope and emergency in nature. This part of the Bill ensures that the UK can both meet its obligations and exercise leadership in protecting ecologically important areas in in areas beyond national jurisdiction.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I will give way very, very briefly. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and again, I would like to pay tribute briefly to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Her and the work of the government in showing UK leadership in this very important environmental area. Could she just briefly also touch on the importance of working in a multilateral way with partners from around the world? And perhaps, I around the world? And perhaps, I hope she will maybe move on to this point later in her speech. Just outline how the UK will be working with other countries to try and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

with other countries to try and protect these areas, and indeed carry out other important work. Yeah.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my hon. Friend for his comment and he is absolutely right. This is an area where obviously no This is an area where obviously no nation can work on its own. It has to be through working together, being influential on the world being influential on the world stage, working through and with the UN, and working with our international partners and working with other nations and indeed what with other nations and indeed what we do as part of our work, whether that's in the Foreign Office or that's in the Foreign Office or with Defra or with other departments, is through the course of all of our conversations, we maintain dialogue on this and other important matters in relation to our environment and climate impact our environment and climate impact around the world, and I'm grateful to him for raising that, because it is another example of where being outward facing as a nation, as this government has chosen to do, is incredibly important, not just for what we achieve at home, but also our responsibilities on the world stage.

Now, if I could, Madam Chair, just make progress on discussing part four of the bill. Environmental impact assessments clauses 4 to 19 implement the environmental impact assessment provisions of the agreement where relevant to marine licensing, and ensure that UK marine licensable activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction are subject to the appropriate level of scrutiny. Clause 14 amends the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 to ensure it can be used effectively to regulate planned UK activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction.

A minor government amendment, Amendment One, has been tabled to omit the heading on the continental shelf, which will adjust the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 so it more accurately reflects the content of this section, including the section that is amended by clause 14, part four of this bill. Now, in relation to clause 15, this updates the marine Works Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations 2007 to bring them into alignment with the BBNJ agreement, and the government has tabled amendment two to add person after clause 15, five B as a minor Clarificatory amendment to the regulations.

Clause 16 allows regulations to be made to implement standards and guidance guidelines adopted by the conference of the parties under article 38 of the agreement. Clauses 17 and 18 ensure that equivalent provision exists for Scotland. Amending the Marine Scotland Act 2010 and enabling Scottish Ministers to make regulations which are devolved. Competence to implement environmental impact assessment obligations for Scottish regulated marine activities. Clause 19 amends the Levelling Up and Regeneration Act 2023 to ensure that any future environmental outcomes report can apply to Licensable activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction and in relation to this, also, the BBNJ Environmental Impact Assessment provisions closely replicate our existing domestic arrangements for marine licensing, which operators are familiar with.

So these are minor technical changes to align our existing regime with BBNJ processes. Together, these provisions deliver a coherent and modernised framework for assessing and mitigating the environmental impacts of activities linked to the United Kingdom on the high seas, and concluding with part five of the Bill. Clauses 20 to 25 contain technical and standard legislative provisions, including key definitions relating to the bill. Clause 21 provides a power for the Secretary of State via secondary legislation to make changes to the legislation, which may be required because of provisions in the bill.

Clauses 22 and 23 cover the making of regulations and Crown application. Clause 24 provides that the Bill extends to the whole of the United Kingdom, with the exception of clauses 17 and 18, which extend to Scotland only. Some of the obligations in the Bill relate to devolved matters, including environmental protection and scientific research. The legislative consent motion process is therefore engaged for Scotland and Northern Ireland to varying extents by parts two, three and four of the Bill. We are in the process of seeking legislative consent, and we expect motions in the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly to be passed by final reporting stages of the Bill in the House of Lords.

This clause also provides for future extension of any of the provisions of the Bill, with or without modifications, to British Overseas Territories. The government sought the consent of the Crown Dependencies for this permissive extent clause to apply to them, enabling the extension of the bill to these jurisdictions in the future. Therefore, the Isle of Man, which consented to its conclusion in this permissive extent clause. As the as they consented. The government has tabled amendment three at committee to insert this into the bill.

I will just draw my remarks to a close because I'm.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Very, very. Specific point, please. It's really important. I will. Thank you very much. I welcome this bill. I chair.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

this bill. I chair. The all. Party group. For the. Channel Islands. I was. Interested that you brought forward the amendment that brought forward the amendment that just covered the Isle of Man. Before the bill goes to the other place, could her officials please consult with.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

consult with. The Channel Islands one last time to make sure that they don't also need to be on the face of the bill?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bill? I thank my hon. Friend for her comments. I think the answer is yes. comments. I think the answer is yes. Very. Continue those conversations with with channel nine. So if I could just draw my remarks now to a could just draw my remarks now to a close. The provisions of the bill would only be extended to British would only be extended to British Overseas territories and the Isle of Man with their agreement. And of Man with their agreement.

And finally, clause 25 sets out when most of the bill's provisions come into force and gives the Secretary into force and gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations to appoint entry into force dates for other provisions. force dates for other provisions. In summary, this bill provides the legal foundation for the United legal foundation for the United Kingdom's participation in the new global regime for protecting biodiversity on the high seas. It will enable us to fulfil our international commitments, provide certainty to our scientific and research communities and demonstrate once again the UK's leadership in marine conservation.

I commend the Bill to the Committee and look forward to engaging with hon. Members during the debate.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call the Shadow Minister, Andrew Rosindell. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Madam Chairman, and it is a privilege, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, and.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

under your chairmanship, and. I'm pleased to speak. To the amendments in my name and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To the amendments in my name and to those of His Majesty's Government. And I thank the Minister for her very detailed Minister for her very detailed explanation of the Bill, which I'm sure we all agree has been extremely helpful this evening. extremely helpful this evening. Madam chairman, this bill is a significant measure and one that significant measure and one that commands broad support across the House. In plain English, the aims
20:35
Andrew Rosindell Portrait Andrew Rosindell MP (Romford, Conservative)
-
-
House. In plain English, the aims of the Bill, if implemented correctly, could play a major part in protecting the two thirds of our planet that lie beyond any one nation's control. As I said at Second Reading, the United Kingdom has a proud record of global leadership in ocean conservation. Our island nation boasts the greatest maritime explorers and conservationists in history, and I believe that we have always seen the oceans, which, after all, have been key to our national and international success story as treasures which require protection.

But as with all international frameworks, even those that are without controversy and especially those which confer upon our Ministers prerogative powers, the details really do matter. The amendments that His Majesty's Opposition are proposing are by no means intended to undermine the Bill. Rather, they seek to strengthen it by ensuring that Parliament remains properly informed that ministerial powers are exercised accountably and that the new regulatory burdens placed on British science and industry are managed in a proportionate way.

The first of my amendments relate to clause seven, which deals with reporting requirements under clauses five and six of the bill. Those clauses concern, respectively, priorities of marine genetic resources and databases of digital sequence information. As drafted, clause seven requires a separate report to be provided to the Secretary of State every two years from each repository and each database dealing, detailing the number of times samples or data have been accessed, viewed or downloaded.

Our amendment, simple though it may seem, would allow those two reports to be combined into a single report provided that all the necessary information is fully included. It is a modest step to reduce duplication and unnecessary bureaucracy. Many institutions, whether they be our universities, the Natural History Museum, the National Oceanography Centre, amongst many other institutions in this country, will operate both repositories and databases. It makes no sense to me to require two separate reports when a single consolidated report could serve exactly the same function, the scientists of our island home lead the world in marine biodiversity research.

We should ensure that compliance with this new regime is as straightforward as possible, while still meeting our obligations under the agreement. The amendment, therefore, aims to strike a sensible balance between upholding the requisite protections prescribed by the treaty, whilst also ensuring that we do not unnecessarily hinder our researchers, especially those belonging to smaller enterprises or university projects. And I hope the Minister will view it in that way. The Second Amendment I wish to speak to, to introduce a new clause, which is new clause one, entitled powers of the Secretary of State Review.

This clause would require the Secretary of State, within three years of the act coming into force to lay before Parliament. A report on the exercise of the powers conferred by the Bill. The report would describe how those powers have been used, for what purposes and, crucially, how effectively they have been implemented. It would also assess whether the use of those powers has aligned with the objectives of the international agreement itself. And so, Madam Chairman, we live in a nation where Parliament is sovereign.

And whilst I respect that this is not a unique case, nevertheless Parliament is owed the right to proper scrutiny. The bill grants extensive powers to the Secretary of State powers to make regulations that could amend primary legislation, impose civil sanctions and even create new offences. Clause nine and 11, in particular, confer broad regulatory authority to implement future decisions of the International Conference of the parties. It is entirely appropriate, Madam Chairman, that Parliament should have the opportunity, after a period of operation, to review how those powers have been used.

We have seen in other fields that delegated powers can expand far beyond what Parliament originally intended, and so a statutory review clause would ensure that we learn from experience and, if necessary, recalibrate. It would also enhance trust and I think, trust in the treaty itself, the general public and indeed Parliament, want assurance that international obligations are implemented both in the interests that they have been set out by international agreements, but also, importantly in our own national interest, and that the government remain answerable to this House for the way in which they do so.

A report after three years, I believe, is hardly an onerous expectation and would create a constructive means of evaluating whether the mechanisms in this bill are working as intended. And it would, I believe, strengthen rather than hinder the effectiveness of this legislation. And so the Third Amendment concerns clause 12, which sets out the procedure for regulations under clause 11. Clause 11 allows the Secretary of State to make regulations in response to decisions taken by the conference of the parties under the agreement, including in relation to area based management tools such as marine protected areas and emergency measures under article 24, clause 11 three C specifically allows the Secretary of State to charge fees in connection with the exercise of functions under those regulations.

However, as currently drafted, the bill does not require those fee setting regulations to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, and so our amendment would correct that it would ensure that any regulations enabling the Minister to set fees are subject to a level of parliamentary scrutiny. Fees are, madam chairman, in effect, a form of taxation. They may affect universities, research institutes and private companies engaged in marine science or biotechnology. The sums may not be vast, but they are nevertheless material.

It is only right that Parliament should have the chance to debate and, if necessary, amend or reject such regulations before they take effect. The affirmative procedure is a reasonable safeguard, and I hope the government will agree. Finally, Madam Chairman, I turn to new clause two, requiring biennial reporting of the implementation and enforcement of the act. Under this proposal, the Secretary of State would be required to lay before Parliament a report every two years, beginning with two years of enactment, detailing how the act is being implemented and enforced.

The report would include data on access to samples and digital sequence information, information on the number and nature of the enforcement actions, and assessment of the Act's impact on business, on scientific research, and on the fishing industry. A summary of any regulatory changes made under the act, and an assessment of the impact of those changes. The intent is to keep Parliament and the public informed about how this complex framework is working in practice. Madam chairman, this bill touches upon sensitive and wide ranging interests environmental protection, scientific innovation, intellectual property and economic activity on the high seas.

It is, of course, right that we protect biodiversity, but we must also ensure that the UK remains a place where science and enterprise can flourish, as it has always done before. Regular reporting will help us understand whether the balance is being struck correctly. Are our scientists able to conduct research without being bogged down in excessive paperwork? Are our marine industries able to operate competitively while meeting environmental standards? These are questions that need to be answered.

Are our enforcement agencies adequately resourced? Another important question the Minister needs to reassure the House on. These are legitimate questions, Madam Chairman, that will inevitably deserve answers. I believe such transparency would also demonstrate leadership internationally. The UK has always prided itself on being a model of good governance by voluntarily reporting on our own implementation of the agreement, we can encourage other nations to do likewise. I should also mention the position of the Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies.

Clause 24 allows this bill to be extended to the Overseas Territories, and the government amendment would permit extension to the Crown Dependency of the Isle of Man. I thank the hon. Member for Rotherham for already mentioning this in her remarks earlier. These jurisdictions often have unique marine environments and more importantly, unique constitutional arrangements, so any extension must be preceded by full consultation. I hope the Minister can give assurances today that such consultation will take place before any orders are made, and that the government will work with the governments of the Crown dependencies and overseas Territory administrations, who are elected governments of our wider British family, to tailor the regime to their circumstances.

In conclusion, Madam Chairman, our amendments share the aim of strengthening this bill through proportionate oversight and clear accountability to Parliament and the British public. They would ensure that Parliament remains properly informed that ministerial powers are exercised transparently, and that our world leading scientists and industries can comply with the new regime without unnecessary bureaucratic burden. Far from hindering the bill, they would bolster its credibility and effectiveness, supporting both our international obligations and, crucially, our British national

**** Possible New Speaker ****

interests. It is on that basis that I commend my amendments to the House. Thank you.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. Madam Chair. It's a privilege to speak under your chairmanship as we speak under your chairmanship as we reach the remaining stages of the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill. I want to speak Jurisdiction Bill. I want to speak as the member of Portsmouth North, a coastal community, but also as someone fortunate, truly fortunate to have a dedicated environmental to have a dedicated environmental campaigners locally. And, Madam Chair, although I cannot always provide the answer she needs, I do provide the answer she needs, I do want to thank one constituent in particular, viola, whose emails particular, viola, whose emails cover everything from ocean acidification to regenerative farming to the health of our farming to the health of our screens.

For her valued, informed and tireless campaigning, much of what viola raises is exactly why what viola raises is exactly why this bill matters, including the important issues of pollution and harmful algae blooms in Langstone
20:48
Amanda Martin Portrait Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
-
-
Harbour about the need to protect local bird species and drinking water. We must be proactive on ocean heating, bottom trawling and the worrying tipping points we are now seeing in ocean acidification, as well as regenerative farming, reducing pesticides and protecting soil health. That health so that rivers, seas and pollution can recover. And although this bill focuses on biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction, the principle is the same. What happens in our oceans affects us all, from the south coast to the high seas.

This is why the government amendment today strengthening the bill covers particular clarity and accountability. I particularly want to note government amendment one. It introduces what updates section 81 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act, so it accurately, accurately reflects the extended conservation responsibilities created by this legislation. It may seem technical, Madam Chair, but accuracy matters, especially when we are embedding strong protection for vulnerable marine ecosystems, including those far beyond our own waters. This bill is how we ensure the UK plays a leading role in implementing the high seas territory, tackling the overexploitation of shared oceans and improving transparency and reporting.

And in Government Amendment two, tightening the environmental environmental impact assessment provisions helps ensure the framework we set is robust, enforceable and capable of delivering real biodiversity gains beyond our borders. And while stakeholders may not always agree on how best to align planning reforms with environmental goals, the mission is shared to restore nature and not merely preserve what is left. This bill is one part of that mission. By strengthening the UK's hand in protecting biodiversity on the high seas, it reinforces the protection we all want to see.

From Langstone Harbour to Antarctica. And Madam Chair, it demonstrates a leadership and of this government's commitment to restoring nature at every scale.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Doctor Roz Savage. Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and I am very honoured to support the passage of this bill, to support the passage of this bill, along with my Liberal Democrat colleagues. And it's also a real colleagues. And it's also a real pleasure to see across the House people who have been long time people who have been long time champions for the ocean. And I know that there are many people who would have liked to be here tonight,
20:50
Roz Savage Portrait Dr Roz Savage MP (South Cotswolds, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
would have liked to be here tonight, but are forced to be absent by COP30, but we'll be watching from afar and wishing as well. So I'd like to thank the Minister for taking us in detail through the provisions of the Bill and the Shadow Minister for setting out their amendments. So it may be false to me to remind those here in the House and beyond just how significant a step this bill is. It may not be enough to save the oceans from their catastrophic decline in health, but it is certainly a very big step in the right direction.

The oceans cover two thirds of the planet and the high seas, the areas of the ocean beyond national jurisdictions make up nearly half the world's surface and much of its liveable volume. Up until now, they have existed in a legal grey zone, vulnerable to exploitation, and they certainly have been egregiously exploited. But these high seas are essential not just to life in the seas, but on dry land as well. And with this bill, the UK finally places itself in a position to uphold the new global agreement to protect ocean biodiversity.

It is long overdue and much damage has been done, but it is nonetheless very deeply welcomed. We often speak about forests and land ecosystems, yet the ocean is really the Earth's most powerful driving force, regulating our climate, generating oxygen, absorbing carbon and heat, feeding billions, sustaining cultures and anchoring our weather systems. And as anyone who has spent much time out there knows, its power is matched only by its fragility. During my crossings of the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans, I came to understand the sea in a very intimate way.

Alone in a small boat, weeks or months from the nearest coast, you're immersed in the rhythms of the ocean, the long rolling swells, the astonishing wildlife that appears from the deep, and the immense silence that settles when the wind drops away to nothing. At times, the ocean felt overwhelmingly powerful at others unexpectedly tender. Those lessons that I learned on the ocean have stayed with me, especially the lesson that survival depends not on domination, but on partnership.

It's not about survival of the fittest, but about the species that fits in the best with its surrounding ecosystem. And humans would do well to remember this. That is why I'm particularly heartened that today we see genuine cross-party alignment when Parliament chooses collaboration over confrontation, we show what is possible. It that I felt when I first introduced the Climate and Nature Bill this year, and I'd like to give huge credit to my co-sponsors. A genuinely cross-party group from Labour, conservative, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru.

This consensus from across the House was based on the understanding that long term environmental policy only works when it transcends party politics, rather than being used as a political football. I'm proud that the Climate and Nature Bill campaign contributed to the ratification of this treaty, and commend the government on following through on their promise to all the hard working campaigners. But we must also recognise that there are headwinds internationally and domestically. Some voices are questioning climate ambition, watering down commitments or treating environmental progress as optional.

We cannot afford that drift. Climate and ocean policy must be future proofed against

**** Possible New Speaker ****

short term politics. Nature does not bend to electoral cycles. On that. Point.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I will give way. I'm very. I'm very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She will well Lady for giving way. She will well know 94% of the UK's biodiversity lies within the territorial waters of our overseas territories. And of our overseas territories. And yet just north of the Falkland Islands, there's the so-called Blue Hole, an area of unregulated Hole, an area of unregulated fishing. Beyond fishing regulation and indeed beyond national jurisdiction, an area where trackers are turned off and illegal fishing takes place.

As my hon. Friend agree with me, as are that Friend agree with me, as are that the BBNJ the ratification of it provides perhaps the opportunity, the common cause, to tackle intractable geopolitical issues intractable geopolitical issues that have led to that that lack of regulation and perhaps point a way forward in terms of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

forward in terms of the international cooperation that she talks about. Thank you. I thank my hon. Friend for his

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and agree that the treaty can help to provide clarity treaty can help to provide clarity in previously unregulated areas. Many countries have already ratified this treaty showing that ocean conservation really can unite us, where previously there has been disunity. While I welcome the government in bringing this legislation forward so speedily since the Climate and Nature Bill, hence giving us a seat at the table at the first Ocean Cop next year, it is a little disappointing that the UK was not one of the first nations to ratify the agreement.

We hope to be a country that leads on climate diplomacy, so we shouldn't be arriving late to the crucial environmental treaty of this decade. With many of our colleagues currently in Belgium and the world preparing for the first Ocean Cop, the UK must demonstrate not only that it supports global ocean governance in theory, but is also prepared to deliver it in practice. It's also vital to recognise that the health of our oceans depends on the health of our land based environment, too.

One cannot heal without the help of the other. We need to decrease our carbon emissions from land if we are to slow ocean acidification, which threatens plankton ecosystem health, and the millions of people whose lives and livelihoods depend on the ocean. This responsibility starts at home. This is why the Liberal Democrats have long been pushing for the strongest possible marine environmental targets, both domestically and internationally. If we want credibility internationally, we need coherence domestically, our own marine protected areas must live up to their name, which means ending destructive practices like bottom trawling and implementing a clear, science driven ocean strategy that rises above and beyond departmental silos and party political lines.

A strong stance on the high seas will ring hollow if our own waters remain vulnerable. The public understands this, the environmental community understands this, and I know many members across the House understand it, too. And I join my Liberal colleagues in calling for a coherent oceans policy that joins up our commitment to international waters with stronger protections at home. As I draw to a close, I'd like to say. Getting there. If we choose.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To pursue. A strategy of high ambition, the UK can once again be a leader in UK can once again be a leader in global ocean protection, championing the first generation of high seas sanctuaries, pushing for robust monitoring and enforcement, supporting small island states and ensuring that the benefits of marine science are shared fairly. marine science are shared fairly. So yes, the Liberal Democrats welcome this bill. It enables the welcome this bill. It enables the UK to participate fully in the new regime for marine scientific resources, for marine protected resources, for marine protected areas and for stronger environmental impact assessments.

The bill is necessary but not sufficient. It is the work that follows which will determine its follows which will determine its true legacy, and I trust that the government will continue to draw support and perspectives from support and perspectives from across the House in order to secure the wellbeing of the oceans for generations to come.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hear, hear. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Very, very briefly, I want Chair. Very, very briefly, I want to repeat my welcome for this particular bill, and it's a pleasure to follow the Member for pleasure to follow the Member for South Cotswolds. And every time she describes her ocean journeys, I keep thinking of that wonderful poem, The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner by Coleridge, which she must have repeated to herself dozens of times as she's pulling on those oars.

The bill is very good, and it will hopefully lead to much greater protection of the oceans. One point I'd like to ask the Minister to respond to is over the years, we've been through all kinds of arguments about Antarctica, from the original Thatcherite concept of mineral extraction from there to the much later protection of the whole continent, and also protection of the seas around it. Is she satisfied that there is sufficient protection of the whaling industry or the whaling industry? That was the protection of the whales that have survived and the growth of their numbers, because there is still endless reports of illegal whaling that
21:00
Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)
-
-
does go on there, particularly by Japan and other countries. The Member for South Cotswolds quite, Member for South Cotswolds quite, quite rightly raised the issue of plastic pollution. There are many wonderful schemes to try to clean up the plastic island in the Pacific Ocean and ensure that Pacific Ocean and ensure that plastic is recycled in a proper manner, and that is good, and they're hoping that it will be they're hoping that it will be clean by 2040. The problem, as I understand it, is that two thirds of plastic is actually under the of plastic is actually under the ocean and not on the surface, and therefore something else has to be done.

But crucially, it's up to us done. But crucially, it's up to us the amount of plastic that flows into the oceans, through our rivers and through dumping and through illegal activities. And so it is the responsibility also of our the responsibility also of our water industry and sewage disposal system to ensure that plastic does system to ensure that plastic does not throw flow into the ocean. And the other point was made about bottom trawling and overfishing of bottom trawling and overfishing of the oceans is absolutely true.

And this is why I asked the question about the resources that the government will have, and other governments will have to enforce this piece of legislation. There this piece of legislation. There are massive commercial interests involved in overfishing, in pollution, in dropping plastic in the ocean, and so much more. So the inequality of resources between the powerful commercial interests that have done so much damage to our oceans and so much damage to fish stocks, is not met by the equivalent resources of the public in either monitoring what's going on or indeed cleaning up after them.

So I hope that the Minister will understand this is not a criticism of the bill. It's very much in support of the bill. But if the resources are not there to monitor and correct what is going on with our oceans, then we will not have

**** Possible New Speaker ****

achieved what we should have. Yes of course. Anyway. I'm grateful to the hon. Friend for. Giving way.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Giving way. Does he. Agree that. One of. The. Most important. Things the government can be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Things the government can be doing at COP one, when it meets next year, is to establish. A members.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

members. Of the conference of the parties. About how. Enforcement of. This new treaty

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Enforcement of. This new treaty is going to take place. That is a very good intervention. I completely agree with the hon. I completely agree with the hon. Member on that point. And that means you have to bring in to the means you have to bring in to the enforcement regime those countries that are the worst polluters and the ones that are most guilty of the ones that are most guilty of overfishing and the most guilty of turning a blind eye to fishing companies that do that.

And so it's companies that do that. And so it's not an easy gig, but it is very important to do it. If we don't do it, then fish stocks will reduce, the biodiversity will reduce, and the pollution will get worse. And ultimately, those that eat fish

**** Possible New Speaker ****

ultimately, those that eat fish will be eating plastic fish. Lined up. I call the Minister,
21:03
Seema Malhotra Portrait Seema Malhotra MP (Feltham and Heston, Labour )
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Mr. Malhotra. Thank you, Madam Chair. I know in the interest of time, I will do in the interest of time, I will do my best to just come back on the amendments that were spoken to and to make a broad point that I think the contributions from the hon. Members for South Cotswolds and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North, showed the importance of a healthy marine ecosystem that underpins global fisheries and climate regulation. The BBNJ agreement is an essential step towards protecting marine biodiversity and the creation of marine protected areas in areas beyond national jurisdiction.

If I could speak very briefly in relation to the amendments tabled by the Shadow Minister and our and our reasons for not supporting those amendments today, I recognise the point he makes about reducing burdens, and that's something on all of our minds. And I thank him for tabling these amendments. But on amendment four, the government considers that this amendment is not necessary as the possibility to provide a recent single report already exists. And if a person that controls the repository on which a report is required is the same person that controls the database on which other report is required, then there is nothing in the current bill which actually prevents them from providing a single report covering both elements.

So I hope that is some reassurance to him in relation to new clause one. Again, I think it will be helpful to say that, as we don't currently know when or if powers in the bill will be used, our approach of a post-implementation review after five years, we believe, provides the necessary flexibility to review the implementation of the act at a more appropriate point. And therefore, we do not think that his amendment is needed in relation to amendment five.

The purpose of enabling provision for charging of fees under clause 11 three C, is to allow for recovery of costs associated with the carrying out of functions. This is standard practice to ensure effective use of public money, as set out in the Treasury's Managing Public Money guidance. In the Bill, regulations made under clause 11, which amend an Act of Parliament or create a civil sanction, or vary the amount of maximum amount of any monetary penalty, and so on, are regulations which also contain provision to the charging of fees and are already made by the affirmative procedure.

So he may not have been aware of that detail, but I hope that will assure him. And finally, on new clause two and the consequences of this, we believe and various reporting requirements, including amendment, are disproportionate in relation to the value they would provide. There's also a risk they would duplicate existing processes. Misalign with international reporting cycle and increase the burden on entities providing information in the reports. Perhaps finally, it would be helpful for him to be reassured that engagement with scientific stakeholders suggests that the notification and other requirements are unlikely to impose a significant burden.

Indeed, the BBNJ agreement will benefit the scientific community by encouraging information sharing and supporting scientific and technological development. So I hope this reassures him that we have considered his amendments and that we have reason for not supporting them today.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you. The question is that clause one

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that clause one stand part of the bill. As many as IPSA I of the contrary. No. The IPSA I of the contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. With the leave of the committee, I will put the question on clauses 2 will put the question on clauses 2 to 6. Stand part together. The question is that clause 2 to 6 stand. Part of the bill is meant stand. Part of the bill is meant IPSA I contrary.

No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come it. The ayes have it. We now come to amendment four to clause seven, which has been selected for separate decision. I call Andrew

**** Possible New Speaker ****

separate decision. I call Andrew Rosindell to move. Amendment four formally. Move formally. Amendment four proposed proposed

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Amendment four proposed proposed clause seven as on the amendment paper. The question is that the amendment be made as many the opinion, say aye. I no,
21:07
None Portrait Division
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

opinion, say aye. I no, No. Can Can see Can see I'm Can see I'm about Can see I'm about to Can see I'm about to do the next bit of business at the bench. They should be seated. The question is, as on the order papers may say, I want to know tellers for the ayes are Nick Timothy and David Simmonds and tellers for the noes are Greg Smith, Gregor Poynton and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

So. So. The. Order.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The ayes to the right 143. The noes to the left 318.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The ayes to the right 143. The noes to the left 382. The noes have noes to the left 382. The noes have it the nose. Have it unlock. With it the nose. Have it unlock. With the leave of the committee, I will put the questions on clauses 7 to put the questions on clauses 7 to 11. Stand apart together. The question is that clauses 7 to 11 stand. Part of the bill is that please say aye.

The contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to amendment five to clause 12, which has been selected for separate decision. I call for separate decision. I call Andrew Rosindell to move amendment five formally. Formally amendment five proposed clause 12 as on the five proposed clause 12 as on the amendment paper, the question is that the amendment be made as many that say aye. of the contrary, no.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that say aye. of the contrary, no. No, sir. Colleagues Colleagues observing the chamber should be seated. If they are near a bench, colleagues should be seated if they are near a bench. The question is as on the order papers may not say I know Tellers for the ayes and Nick Timothy and David Simmonds and Tellers for the noes of Gregor

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The The question The question. Liverpool Liverpool Garston. And. And. The.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Of. Order. Order.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Order. Order. The Ayes to the right 147. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Noes to the left 318. The Ayes to the right 147. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Ayes to the right 147. The Noes to the left 318. So The noes have it the nos. Have it unlock. have it the nos. Have it unlock.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Harlow. With the leave of the committee, I will put the questions on clauses I will put the questions on clauses 12 and 13 stand apart together. The question is that clauses 12 and 13 stand part of the bill. As many that say I contrary. No. The ayes that say I contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I call the Minister to move amendment one, the Minister to move amendment one, formerly. Formally Government amendment one proposed to clause 14 as on the amendment paper.

The question is that the amendment be made as may that opinion, say aye. I of the contrary. No. The ayes I of the contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The question is that clause 14, as amended, stand part of the bill as may that opinion, say aye. I Of the contrary, no the ayes have it. The ayes have it. I call the Minister to move amendment two formally Chorley. Amendment two proposed to clause 15 as on the amendment paper. The question is that amendment be made as made that being, say a contrary no.

The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The question with the leave of the committee, I shall put the questions on clauses 15 to 23 together. The question is that clauses 15, as amended and clauses 16 to 23 stand part of the bill, as many that say I. Contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I call the Minister to move amendment three formally. Formally, government amendment three proposed to clause 24 as on the amendment paper. The question is that amendment be made as amended, say aye.

Of the contrary, no the ayes have it. The ayes have it. With the leave of the committee, I shall put the questions on clauses 24 to 26 together. The question is that clause 24 as amended, and clauses 25 and 26 stand part of the bill, as amended, say I of the contrary. No, the ayes have it. The ayes have it. The question is that the schedule be the schedule to the bill as amended. Say I as the contrary. No. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Order, order! The question is that I do report the bill, as amended, to the House. The bill as amended to the House as made that opinion, say aye. contrary. No. The ayes have it. The

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Order! Two. Report. I'd like to report that the committee has gone through the bill committee has gone through the bill and directed me to report the same with amendment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Under the order of the House of 16th of October, we now proceed directly to consideration. No amendments on consideration. Under

**** Possible New Speaker ****

amendments on consideration. Under the order of 16th of October, we Bill. Now.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Now. Minister, to move Third Reading. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I beg to move
21:36
None Portrait Third Reading Seema Malhotra
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be now read a third time. If there is one message that time. If there is one message that members should take from today's debate, it is that this bill is essential. Essential to protecting essential. Essential to protecting the ocean, advancing marine science and ensuring the UK continues to and ensuring the UK continues to lead ocean protection efforts on the international stage. This is a the international stage. This is a landmark piece of legislation.

It will, along with the second subsequent secondary legislation, enable the United Kingdom to ratify the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Agreement to protect marine biodiversity in the two marine biodiversity in the two thirds of our ocean that lie beyond any one nation's control. This bill means that the UK can play its full part in shaping a fair, science based international system for areas beyond national jurisdiction, one that balances conservation, sustainable use and global collaboration. It delivers on our international commitments and ensures that British scientists, institutions and innovators remain at the forefront of of ocean research and biotechnology.

Let me take this opportunity to thank members across the House for their thoughtful contributions and scrutiny of this bill. At every stage, the work of the ocean APPG and environment committees has been crucial to keeping this bill high on the agenda. I am grateful to those who spoke in Second Reading, and to those who have taken part in the Committee of the whole House, and to members who have engaged constructively throughout. I would also like to thank my hon. Friend, the Minister for Water and Flooding for her support throughout the passage of the Bill.

I also thank the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, DEFRA and DfT officials whose expertise with parliamentary drafts, people and other officials across government has underpinned this bill. I also thank the devolved governments for their engagement on the bill and legislative consent processes. Finally, I want to acknowledge the scientific community from the National Oceanic Oceanography Centre to the National History Museum and our universities, who have been pivotal to presenting the need for this legislation. Madam Deputy Speaker, let us be clear why this bill matters.

The ocean regulates our climate. It sustains global fisheries. It provides half the oxygen on Earth. Protecting it is not just an environmental choice. It is an economic, scientific and moral imperative. The previous government began this process by signing the BBNJ agreement in 2023, but delayed bringing forward legislation through Parliament. This government is now finishing the job, taking the necessary steps to implement its obligations in UK law and ratify it. By passing this bill, the House will send a clear message that the United Kingdom will continue to lead the world in the protection of our shared ocean, that we stand with our partners to deliver a healthy, sustainable ocean and that we will do so grounded in science and international cooperation.

This is our responsibility today and for future generations. For those

**** Possible New Speaker ****

reasons, Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend this bill to the House. For the question is that the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

For the question is that the bill be now read a third time, and Rosindell. Yes. Thank you very much, Madam
21:40
Andrew Rosindell Portrait Andrew Rosindell MP (Romford, Conservative)
-
-


**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I want to thank the Minister for guiding this bill through Parliament and also echo through Parliament and also echo her thanks to all those involved in the passage of this Bill and to say how pleased I am that it has been of a cross-party nature, which is as it should be. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to, on behalf of His Majesty's Opposition, state my support for the core purpose of this Bill.

It is right that we act to safeguard the biodiversity of the high seas. It is right that we promote the fair and equitable sharing of benefits from marine genetic resources, and right that we establish clear assessment and management tools to prevent harm to the ocean environment. It was on this basis that the previous conservative government, as acknowledged, played a key role in negotiating the treaty in the first place, the United Kingdom should meet the obligations prescribed in this treaty with the leadership for which we are known around the world as an island nation with a proud maritime heritage stretching back centuries.

We understand better than most nations the value and the vulnerability of our oceans. However, while this bill enables us to fulfil our treaty commitments, it also assigns wide ranging powers to Ministers, implement future decisions taken by future decisions taken by international bodies, decisions which could in time have significant implications for British science, industry and innovation. And so Parliament must be able to retain the ability to scrutinise, question and, where appropriate, challenge the use of these powers.

That is, the spirit behind the amendments we just brought forward. And it reflects the fundamental principle that international cooperation must never come at the expense of proper democratic oversight in this House. Madam Deputy Speaker, the United Kingdom's record as a custodian of the seas is long established, strengthened by the extraordinary biodiversity of our overseas territories. The Blue Belt Initiative, which includes many of our territories such as Pitcairn, Anguilla, South Georgia, South Sandwich Islands, the Falkland Islands and indeed the British Indian Ocean Territory has rightly made Britain a global leader in marine protection, and I therefore welcome the bill's application to the overseas territories in clause 20 and now, through the government's amendment to clause 24 to the Isle of Man.

Although, Madam Deputy Speaker, it must be said again that proper consultation with those territories and dependencies is essential, and has been starkly absent from the government's shameful handling of the Chagos Islands. Our overseas territories are part of the British family and they deserve to be treated with respect and consideration that such a relationship demands. And so, Madam Deputy Speaker, the challenge of protecting the oceans is not a partisan one, nor do I think it is subject to open conflict between nation states.

Our seas sustain every nation, and the success of such cooperation on the high seas will depend on the integrity of domestic implementation. If we are to lead internationally, then our own house must be firmly put in order first. And that is what we are doing in passing this bill. As we send this bill to the other place, I hope the government will reflect on the constructive contributions made from across this House and ensure that the final bill upholds both our environmental responsibilities and our democratic principles.

Britain can and must lead by example. Madam Deputy Speaker, we owe it to future generations to get this right. And as Sir David Attenborough says, if we save the sea, we save our world.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that the bill be now. Read the third time as may that people say aye. of the that people say aye. of the contrary, no the ayes have it. The ayes have it. That concludes business on Biodiversity Beyond business on Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Bill committee and remaining stages. I'll give the frontbenchers a I'll give the frontbenchers a moment to shuffle over. Right. I go moment to shuffle over. Right. I go on to motion number two on the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.

The Leader of the House to move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to move. I beg to move. The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as that opinion, say
21:45
21:45
21:46
21:46
None Portrait Remaining Orders of the Day
-



**** Possible New Speaker ****

delegated legislation. Church of England General Synod measures. Leader of the House to move. To move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

To move. The question is, as on the order papers, may I say I want to know. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. With a leave of the house, I will bundle the next bit of business together. We now come to motion number seven, environmental Food and Rural Affairs. Motion number and Rural Affairs. Motion number eight Environmental Audit Committee. Motion number nine relating to Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Motion number ten relating to Welsh Affairs Committee. Jessica Morden to move. I beg to move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I beg to move. The question is as on the Order Paper Fabian Hamilton say I of the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Paper Fabian Hamilton say I of the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I beg to move that this House do. Now adjourn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn. And I come to Dave Robertson on government support for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Robertson on government support for the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist Dave Robertson. Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is an honour and a privilege to be able to lead this debate tonight be able to lead this debate tonight on government support for the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist. I secured this debate in Clives name, and I want to start by telling the House a little bit about Clive. I never had the pleasure of meeting Clive, had the pleasure of meeting Clive, so I'm drawing here on the words of his family who knew him best. Clive's sister and his father, Clive's sister and his father, Michael, are in the gallery this evening, and I'm really glad that they're able to here to see proceedings.

They've been tireless advocates for Clive, making sure that his voice is heard, and I hope that I can do their efforts justice tonight. Clive was born in Lichfield in my constituency in Lichfield in my constituency in 1969. He was soon diagnosed with a learning difficulty and between the ages of eight and ten, with
21:48
21:48
21:48
None Portrait Adjournment: Government support for the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist
-

what Clive's life was, and I really do want to make sure that the House can hear who Clive was. He was a talented artist and gardener, gifted with a brush and able to make plants spring seemingly from nothing. He loved music, especially Elvis Presley, and was often singing and dancing. His family remember him as the life of the party. He wanted to work in a garden centre, helping to raise plants. He wanted to have his own home close to his family, to own a cat, to learn, to drive, to go on holiday, to Blackpool and to Somerset.

And he was really devoted to his family as they were to him. He was known as the family calendar, never forgetting a card for a birthday, Christmas, Easter or any other reason. His sister Elaine says her brother was engaging, humorous, gentle and loving. His parents, Pauline and Michael, have said that his heart knew no bounds and described their son's magical qualities throughout his life. In all of the accounts of Clive that I've heard, his love and optimism really do shine through. Clive passed away in 2017 at just 47 years of age, after a seizure caused by his epilepsy brought on cardiac arrest.

This is what's known as SUDEP, or sudden unexpected death in epilepsy. Clive had been living in a residential placements for years up until this point, moving often before he died, Clive's family had become really worried about his deteriorating health and tragically, so had Clive. He left a message on his dad dad's phone, which was not received until some days after his death, saying that he was dying and that he needed an ambulance. Clive was not
21:50
Dave Robertson Portrait Dave Robertson MP (Lichfield, Labour)
-
-
listened to, his family were not listened to, and the consequences were devastating. Close family after that terrible event had to fight hard for answers. First to fight hard for answers. First to secure an inquest into his death and later to secure an independent and later to secure an independent review. When that review was completed in 2021, four years after Clive died, it confirmed what they Clive died, it confirmed what they had suspected all along. The independent review found that Clive's care fell far short of what Clive's care fell far short of what should be expected of somebody with drug resistant epilepsy.

It identified multiple system wide identified multiple system wide failures in delivering his care and treatment that put him at greater treatment that put him at greater risk. It found that his death was potentially avoidable and that he had been failed both in life and in death. But what does that mean in practice? It meant that management practice? It meant that management of Clive's epilepsy was fragmented. The link between his epilepsy and the sometimes challenging behaviours that he could exhibit behaviours that he could exhibit when stressed, like not taking his medication or withdrawing to his room or not communicating, were often overstated.

These behaviours often overstated. These behaviours disproportionately impacted on the generally held view that Clive required a hospital setting, despite the fact that he had long expressed a wish to live in his own home. Care in the community was only discussed with him and his family towards the end of his life. And that kind of draws to where we were with where Clive's life was. I think if we move on to past CLOS death, I think it's really important to pay tribute to Clive's family.

Throughout all of the suffering, they've been relentless in their focus on ensuring that other families do not go through what they had to. And that's why we're here today. And for me, it's what this debate is entirely about.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I, of course, will give my. Madam Deputy Speaker first thing, can I congratulate and thank the hon. Gentleman for Lichfield for hon. Gentleman for Lichfield for bringing this forward, his choice of words, his tone, his compassion of words, his tone, his compassion and his voice. I think it's a real tribute to Clive Treacey and to his family here in the in the gallery family here in the in the gallery today. And I think the hon. Gentleman has done a tribute, a wonderful tribute for him.

And I want to put that on record as well. And I guess right to do that. Incidentally, I'm an Elvis Presley fan as well as he was. I know he fan as well as he was. I know he could probably sing better than I could, but that's just. By the way, does the hon. Member not agree that, well, it's nothing can bring back the life of this young man. His legacy can be life changing for so legacy can be life changing for so many others.

And rather than best practice, this must be rolled out at a recommended tool throughout each trust and each area of this United Kingdom of Great Britain and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a tribute to Clive Treacey. Dave Robertson.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Dave Robertson. I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. It's my actually my first intervention from the hon. Member for Strangford and he does raise what's a really important point though, and I'm actually in kind of when he's asking that kind of when he's asking that question, I thought back to a couple of weeks ago, I was asked at a community event, what gives you hope? Dave and I thought for a while, and actually so often we come to this place and we hear stories of people who've gone through unimaginable hardship, and somehow they find the strength within themselves to turn that not just into anger.

And they don't turn it inwards, but they can turn it outwards and really campaign to make sure that this doesn't happen for other people. And that's exactly an example of what we've got here. And I think it is the very best testament to actually the human spirit that we see so many examples of human beings who are able to do that. So I very much thank the hon. Member for his intervention. If we return now to to Clive, Clive, like a quarter of people with a learning disability had epilepsy.

It's 1 in 4. People with learning disabilities have epilepsy, compared to 1 in 100 of the general population. Coupled with that is that epilepsy is the second most frequently reported preventable cause of death with with. For people with a learning disability. And not only are people with a learning disability more likely to have epilepsy, the risks they face from their epilepsy are higher to SUDEP risk, which is which is what Clive is more than three times higher for those with epilepsy and learning disability, compared to those with epilepsy and learning disability.

And tragically, Clive's case is not an isolated example of the unique failures. It's a story that goes far too common across the country. But there are things that we can do to change that story. Research suggests that annual health checks can significantly reduce the chance of premature death in people with learning disability and autism who have epilepsy. In fact, the chances of death were reduced by 84% for people with a learning disability and epilepsy who'd had a review of their epilepsy in the last 12 months.

And that really brings me on to the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist. The checklist is a tool developed after Clive's death, and an important part of his legacy, and I'd like to place on record my thanks to professor Mike Kerr and Professor Rohit Shankar for their work on the checklist, alongside with the charity SUDEP action NHS Midlands NHS Cornwall Partnership. The checklist was designed for commissioners and service providers, whether they're caring in a specialist hospital setting or out in the community, and it outlines steps that should be gone through annually, as well as whenever a patient moves between services or has a big change in their care, like a new team looking after them.

It recommends up to date health plans, genuine consultation with parents and their families, not box ticking with genuine consultation and proper epilepsy training for staff. The Clive Treacey Safety Checklist is not a document that should be put in a drawer somewhere in an ICB and left alone and looked at once. Every so often when someone asks a question about it, it's a practical tool and the accompanying guidance at just 24 pages long, which I think we all know for the NHS, is a short story at best.

It is packed with information and it is a document that can save lives. Since Clive's death, a number of NHS regions have reviewed the way they care for patients with learning disabilities and epilepsy using the checklist, and it includes the NHS in the Midlands, where 11 integrated care systems carried out a detailed appraisal using the self-assessment tool developed by the charity Epilepsy Action, based on the work of Professor Shankar, to find those weaknesses in their services and make concrete steps to improve them.

More recently, six integrated care boards in the North West, North East and North Yorkshire have done the same and it really is detailed work bringing health and care services together and joined up thinking something we don't hear enough of in Whitehall to tackle this problem and normalise best practice. That best practice, like the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist should be more widespread. And I again pay tribute to Elaine and Clive's family more broadly for the work that they've done driving this entire piece of work forward.

The problem is, is that we still have a postcode lottery. Different parts of the country do and don't follow the checklist. Different parts of the country have and haven't gone through that detailed work to update their practices, and we should not be able to. We cannot in this House tolerate a situation where local outcomes are so varied. So I'm really hoping that we get to hear from the Minister shortly is what more we can do here in this place, and through the Department of Health and Social Care, to ensure that people with learning disabilities are not dying of preventable causes, and to see the very best practice as set out in the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist adopted up and down the country so that we can end this perverse postcode lottery.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call the Minister Doctor Zubir Ahmed. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, I'd like to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Deputy Speaker, I'd like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield for securing this important debate, and also to recognise the efforts of Clive's family, particularly Elaine and family, particularly Elaine and Michael, who join us today in this House. As my hon. Friend described in his wonderful speech, Clive Tracy was a caring, gentle and Tracy was a caring, gentle and humorous man who liked to paint and enjoy gardening and listening to enjoy gardening and listening to music. Clive also, as we have heard, had a learning disability and epilepsy and sadly died in 2017 at epilepsy and sadly died in 2017 at the age of just 47 following a seizure.

His loss, I am sure, is seizure. His loss, I am sure, is still very deeply felt by his family and loved ones and I pay tribute to all of the work they tribute to all of the work they have done, the tragedy, they have channelled that and continue to do so in advocating for change. Following Clive's death, the independent review into Clive's death highlighted that there were multiple system wide failures in multiple system wide failures in delivering his care and treatment, and together placed him at higher risk of sudden death.

It was found risk of sudden death. It was found that Clive experienced suboptimal care and support throughout his care and support throughout his life and death, and that he was not always placed in settings that could meet his needs, both in terms of his epilepsy care and wider support for his disability. I am pleased since Clive's death, meaningful changes have been made. Following the publication of the independent review into his death in December 2021. Organisations directly involved in Clive's care developed high level actions in response to its findings, and there was an overwhelming commitment from all organisations involved to address the systematic issues raised in that report.

NHS England Midlands Region set up a group that became known as Clive Tracy Conscience Group and last year published Clive's Way, a conscience manual, which outlines in detail the progress Midlands region has made in taking forward and implementing the learnings from the independent review. We know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that around 30% of people with epilepsy indeed have a learning difficulty and the risk of sudden, unexpected death in epilepsy is much higher with those with learning disability. As my hon. Friend pointed out.

The latest annual report that learning from Lives and Deaths report found that epilepsy was one of the most common underlying causes of death for people with learning disability between 2021 and 2023. This highlights how crucial it is that information and support for patients with epilepsy who have a learning disability is tailored to their individual needs. We welcome the development of the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist. It is an important part of Clive's legacy, and we would encourage commissioners and service providers to use the checklist and its accompanying guidance as a key tool when designing services for their local populations, and to make sure that the steps outlined in the checklist are followed.

Whenever a patient experiences a significant change in their care. Since Clive's death, a number of NHS regions have reviewed the way they care for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

patients living with learning disability and epilepsy. This House do now adjourn.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that this House do now adjourn. Clive Treacey Safety Checklist. Minister of State. Zubir Ahmed.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Zubir Ahmed. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is also a very positive development that a number of development that a number of integrated health boards in the Midlands, North West and North East and Yorkshire have carried out detailed appraisals to identify any weaknesses in their services. My hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield raises an important point about how we go further, including how annual health checks can how annual health checks can significantly reduce the chance of premature death in people with learning disability who have learning disability who have epilepsy.

NHS England has developed a quality framework to set expectations for annual health checks for people with learning checks for people with learning disability and accompanying health action plans, which are vital to identifying needs early and identifying needs early and providing the right support and mitigating risks of sudden death. Nice guidance on epilepsy in Nice guidance on epilepsy in children, young people and adults. Recommends that people with learning disability should have monitoring reviews at least annually. The Nice guidance on epilepsies also includes a number of recommendations.

How information of recommendations. How information should be tailored and adapted for patients with epilepsy who have a learning disability. It sets out that patients with learning disability should have access to specialist care, and should receive coordinated care using a multidisciplinary approach. For young people with a learning disability who are transitioning to adult epilepsy services, transition planning should begin early. This government expects commissioners and service providers to take Nice guidelines fully into account when making decisions about how to meet the best needs, to best meet the needs of their local communities.

We are also rolling out mandatory training on learning disability and autism to health and adult social care staff. Support for people with a learning disability is also a key area of focus for the NHS Rightcare Epilepsy Toolkit. This toolkit includes a number of actions that systems should be taking to support people with epilepsy who have a learning disability, such as ensuring that epilepsy services are upskilled and are making reasonable adjustments to support the needs of people with a learning disability, including working in partnership with staff trained in how to manage learning disability.

The toolkit also sets out that services should ensure that the community specialist nurses in learning disabilities have the right training in the management of epilepsy. I would also like to recognise, Madam Deputy Speaker, the important work of organisations like Epilepsy Action and Sudep Action. Epilepsy action has produced the Step Together toolkit, which describes what good quality integrated services for people with learning disability and epilepsy should look like. SUDEP action has developed Epilepsy Self Monitoring app, which is a digital tool designed to help patients understand their own personal risk of seizures and to track this risk.

SUDEP action has played a key role in the development of the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would once again like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield for securing this important debate, and to also thank the hon. Member for Strangford for his contribution. It goes without saying that Clive's death must not be in vain, that we must learn the lessons to ensure it does not happen again. But I believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, we also need to commit further that no longer in our National Health Service should tragedy be the only way to make things better for the patients and citizens we serve and to save their lives.

That finally, the patient voice must be our guiding star when designing services and safety checklists and keeping patients safe in the community and in hospital. And I believe to the actions we have taken in our ten year health plan. And I, in my position as Patient Safety Minister, can undertake today to members of this House that that shall be the case going forward in our government's

**** Possible New Speaker ****

you. Chair. The question is that this House

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The question is that this House do now adjourn in memory IPSA I. I the ayes have it. The ayes have it.
22:10
None Portrait Adjournment: Government support for the Clive Treacey Safety Checklist
-

14:00
This debate has concluded
Return to start of debate - Return to top of page