House of Commons
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prayers
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Speaker’s Statement
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
I have a short statement to make about the new pass reader voting system. New, upgraded pass readers have been installed in the Division Lobbies and will be in use from today’s sitting. Colleagues will notice that the pass reader screens will change from purple to white when a Division is in progress. Hon. Members should tap their pass to record their name only when the screen indicates that a Division is in progress. If any Member has not yet registered their pass to work with the new pass readers, they should contact the Public Bill Office as soon as possible. I remind the House that the new system will be effective tonight.
Oral Answers to Questions
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
The Department has long-term plans and proposals to change the way we accommodate asylum seekers.
Esther McVey
Residents of Tatton are concerned about the ongoing nature of supposedly temporary accommodation for immigrants who arrive in the local area. Some hotels are becoming full-time immigration centres and those residing there are in limbo in our town centres. What is the timescale for processing these individuals and for reverting the accommodation back into hotels?
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right in her comments. Through changes linked to the new plan for immigration we will end the use of hotel accommodation for asylum seekers, which was a result of the pandemic—we had to take decisive action to ensure that those seeking asylum in the UK were protected under covid measures. It was a short-term solution and the new plan for immigration includes long-term changes in the offing for asylum accommodation.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
One big reason why we need to use hotels is that the asylum processing system has basically imploded. The share of applications that received an initial decision within six months fell from 87% in 2014 to just 20% in 2019. What is the Home Secretary’s explanation for that?
Priti Patel
There are a number of factors in terms of why there has been slowing down in the processing of asylum claims. In particular, because of the covid pandemic last year, decisions were not made and we had to change our accommodation policies in the light of Public Health England guidance, which is well documented and well known. That has put pressures on the wider system. Of course, the hon. Gentleman will be well aware of the proposals in the new plan for immigration on not only processing, fast-track removals and the changes we are making in legislation, but the digitalisation of the system. We will move from paper-based decision making to digitalisation and that work is already in train.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Asylum seekers are given somewhere to live while their application is being processed, along with £39.63 per person to pay for food, clothing and toiletries. It says on the Government website:
“If you’ve been refused asylum”
you will still be given somewhere to live and still be given
“£39.63 per person…for food, clothing and toiletries”.
Why on earth is the state still providing accommodation and money for people who have been refused asylum? Surely that is when Government support should be turned off.
Priti Patel
If my hon. Friend has read the new plan for immigration and the Nationality and Borders Bill, it will be abundantly clear to him that changes will be coming forth that will absolutely put an end to that.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
We agree that hotel use should end, but we should go back to the community dispersal of asylum seekers throughout the country. We need to ditch this ludicrous and dangerous idea that hotels are some sort of luxury for asylum seekers, because for very many of them the opposite is the case. The Home Secretary knows that the increased use of hotels has seen increased deaths in the asylum accommodation system. Why is the Home Office still placing large numbers of asylum seekers in unsuitable hotels in inappropriate locations, without so much as notifying the relevant local authority, never mind seeking its agreement or ensuring that appropriate levels of support are in place?
Priti Patel
The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is, of course, because local authorities around the country, and particularly in Scotland, have not played their part in helping with dispersal accommodation. The hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of himself for coming to the House and making that point when the Scottish Government have done absolutely nothing to lift a finger in supporting the policy of dispersal accommodation. [Interruption.] In response to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), the answer in relation to Birmingham is because the rest of the United Kingdom is not playing its part.
Stuart C. McDonald
That is one of the most outrageous answers that this incredible Home Secretary has ever given. Every single local authority in Scotland is anxious to play its part in resettling refugees. When it comes to dispersal accommodation, Glasgow has stepped up to the plate while other local authorities are withdrawing from the scheme, and they are doing so, quite rightly, because the Home Office refuses to put in place the support that is required to encourage them to do that. Instead of community dispersal, the Home Office is planning to press ahead with large-scale warehousing of asylum seekers in Napier-style accommodation centres. That is worse even than hotels. Will she confirm that the Home Office will, at the very least, seek local authority permission for building these centres in the middle of people’s local authorities and will not seek to bypass local democracy, as it did with Napier barracks?
Priti Patel
We on the Conservative side of the House will take no lectures on bypassing democracy or local councils. For the record, 31 local authorities out of 32 in Scotland have refused to participate in the dispersal scheme. I say to the hon. Gentleman and to all Members of the House that, when it comes to changes to asylum accommodation, the whole of the United Kingdom needs to step up and play its part. That is how we will address the long-term issues with accommodation more widely. [Interruption.] I can hear the hon. Gentleman say, “You need to play your part.” On the funding side of matters, it is absolutely correct to say that the Home Office, working with the former Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, has been doing everything possible to provide local authorities with financial support and assistance, but certain councils around the country still say no.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
Attracting international talent is a key component of our global, points-based immigration system, delivered as we promised the British public at the 2019 election. This system is designed to attract global talent, sponsored by employers, bringing the best scientists, engineers, academics, and other people with skills to our country.
Mr Davis
Last week, I met the chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, to discuss the challenges facing Britain as we seek to become a leading science superpower. He spoke of the need for cross-departmental support, including from the Home Office, to ensure that Britain is competing in the marketplace of global excellence. Can my right hon. Friend update the House on what conversations her Department has had with UK Research and Innovation with respect to the global talent visa route, and how well she expects it to work?
Priti Patel
This is an important area in developing global talent and making sure that we, as a country, are attractive and can become the science superpower that we aspire to be. The chief scientific officer has indeed been leading this work with the Home Office and with the Treasury. In response to my right hon. Friend’s question, I can say that there is a great deal of work taking place, that these routes are open and that he will hear a lot more about the applications and the numbers that are coming through, but I can assure the House that the Home Office and this Government are absolutely dedicated to making sure that we get the brightest and the best over to our country through this new route.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
Our strategy is a whole-system approach, with different local agencies—for example, the police, healthcare and social care—working together to ensure more effective interventions. To that end, we have put in place guidance, training and online resources for the police and healthcare and educational professionals, and we will shortly be refreshing our national statement of expectations to support local areas in commissioning services.
Rachael Maskell
The unacceptable and continued prevalence of misogyny and violence against women and girls highlights the need for multi-agency partnerships, but the funding is woeful, yet the challenge is great. Will the Minister ensure that the police, who are ever focused on crime detection rather than crime prevention because of the lack of resources, have the resources at hand to build the multi-agency partnerships that are vital to change the culture?
Rachel Maclean
I reject what the hon. Lady says about funding and resources. In her area, the police are receiving their fair share of the 20,000 additional police officers we have pledged to hire. She will already see 114 additional officers in her area, and the police are receiving up to £171.7 million of funding—an increase of £5.5 million—so I suggest that she talks to her local police and crime commissioners and ensures that they are prioritising that funding in the right way.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Domestic violence is one of the ugliest and saddest outcomes of some of the measures that the Government were forced to introduce to handle the covid pandemic, but may I draw the Minister’s attention to the excellent work of the domestic abuse charity Atal y Fro in my constituency, which has encouraged GPs to follow the IRIS—identification and referral to improve safety—programme, enabling them better to identify some of the more prevalent symptoms among victims of domestic violence?
Rachel Maclean
I thank my right hon. Friend for drawing the attention of the House to that excellent programme, which highlights the important role that frontline GPs have in identifying and getting help to victims. I have been informed that he ran the London marathon to raise funds for a charity in his area. I congratulate him on all the hard work that he is doing; I am sure that those services will benefit enormously.
Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
I have a point about the funding. The Randox contract that was granted without any tender is five times the amount that we spend on domestic violence refuges for the entire country—just FYI.
In September, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services published a report making clear the current failings, and pushing for the implementation of its urgent recommendations to improve our national response to violence against women and girls. On 22 September, 18 October and 8 November, I asked the Minister if and when the Government would implement the recommendations in full. I am at risk of sounding like a broken record, as I ask again now: will the Minister today commit to keeping to the very detailed action plan commanded by the inspectorate within the timescale that it states? I do not want to hear again, or in a few weeks’ time, that the Department is still looking closely at the recommendations. Will she commit to them today?
Rachel Maclean
If I may just make a point on funding, I am sure that the hon. Lady would welcome the fact that the Government are providing £300 million of support for victims and witness support services this year.
Rachel Maclean
No, that is not relevant. This is a very important subject, and victims and support services deserve to know that this Government are on their side.
Let me turn to the report referenced by the hon. Lady. This is not a broken record. These are the facts: we are responding and taking action, which is why the Home Secretary is leading on a ministerial group across Government, bringing together the whole of Government to bear down on the recommendations outlined in the report—[Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Lady would like to listen to the Minister. We have also appointed Maggie Blyth to lead the work across the entire police force and criminal justice system that will focus on addressing violence against women and girls, which is a priority for this Government.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
The UK Government are addressing the challenge of illegal migration for the first time in decades through comprehensive reform to break the entire business model of people smuggling. For the first time, whether someone enters the UK legally or illegally will have an impact on how their asylum claim is processed and on their status in the UK if that claim is successful.
Sir Edward Leigh
At the referendum, us Brexiteers told the people that we would take back control. It is clear that, in this aspect, we have lost control. If we tell the most desperate economic migrants in the world, “We will provide a free border taxi service across the channel, we will never deport you and we will put you up in a hotel for as long as you like”, is it any wonder that more and more come? This is now a national emergency. Will the Home Secretary introduce an emergency powers Act to override the Human Rights Act, if necessary, and put people in secure accommodation now? Otherwise, we will not solve the problem.
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend will be well versed in the work that we are doing through the Nationality and Borders Bill, which speaks to the points that he has been making about asylum, processing, deportation and fast-track removals, and which, importantly, will ensure that we break the business model of traffickers who are smuggling people into the United Kingdom. I have always said—
Mr Speaker
Order. Home Secretary, it is easier if you face the Chair, not the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)—just to help each other.
Priti Patel
My apologies, Mr Speaker.
As I was saying, the new plan for immigration and the Nationality and Borders Bill are pivotal to the comprehensive reform of the entire system. There is no single solution, which is why the Bill is so important. I know that all hon. Members on the Government Benches will back the Bill, in stark contrast with those on the Opposition Benches.
Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
The Minister for Security and Borders (Damian Hinds)
Online fraud can cause very serious harm to victims, both financial and emotional. We are determined to protect the public from these crimes and to go after those that commit them. The draft Online Safety Bill will be one important tool to enhance our abilities in that.
Dr Davies
I thank my right hon. Friend for that update. Ofcom allows those who receive spam text messages to forward them to a service, 7726, to report the receipt of those messages. How will the law enforcement agencies use the data acquired to locate and to punish the perpetrators of those crimes?
Damian Hinds
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the 7726 service, because referrals to that help to build up the intelligence on SMS fraudsters or scam texters and can help to lead to take-downs. It is really important that law enforcement works both with regulators and directly with individual telecoms companies to protect victims and go after the criminals responsible.
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
Modern slavery is a truly awful crime. Statistics for England and Wales show that police-recorded modern slavery offences increased by 2% in the year to June 2021, and live investigations also increased from 188 in December 2016 to 3,869 in October 2021. We are committed to tackling modern slavery and we have invested £15 million to strengthen the police response over the past five years.
Carolyn Harris
Prosecution and conviction rates of perpetrators of modern slavery are surprisingly low. Evidence from Justice and Care’s victim navigator programme shows that with appropriate support more victims would have the confidence to help investigations, resulting in more prosecutions. Will the Minister please consider giving all confirmed victims at least 12 months’ support in the country so that they can feel empowered to engage with the justice process?
Rachel Maclean
I thank the hon. Lady for her question; she has highlighted an important issue. The whole point of our modern slavery strategy is to be able to track down and prosecute those horrendous criminals who heartlessly traffic human beings into this country. The entire force of the Government’s policy making is devoted to that end.
Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con)
Many people who are victims of modern-day slavery are those who have been illegally trafficked into this country across the channel. What are the Government doing to break up the criminal gangs dangerously smuggling people across the channel and bring an end to these illegal crossings?
Rachel Maclean
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting that. There are a range of measures in the Nationality and Borders Bill. I very much hope that Opposition Members will support those measures so that we can break down these criminal gangs. We are also working very closely with the police and we have invested additional funds in our courts system to catch up from the backlog of the pandemic.
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
I have heard what the Minister has said, and we can all agree that perpetrators of modern slavery are committing heinous crimes and must be brought to justice. With that in mind, I wonder whether Government Ministers have read the independent anti-slavery commissioner’s recent article entitled “Rushed borders bill will fail victims of modern slavery”. Will the Government urgently act to address the failings in the Nationality and Borders Bill before it effectively tears up the Modern Slavery Act 2015, letting down victims and letting perpetrators get away with their crimes?
Rachel Maclean
I can assure the hon. Lady that I meet the independent anti-slavery commissioner and she plays a very important role in informing the Government’s policy. I can also assure her that the Nationality and Borders Bill is going to strengthen the Government’s response and support for the victims of modern slavery. We have a world-leading system to support and protect victims of modern slavery that we have backed with significant Government resources and investment. The legislation that we are passing will enable us to respond more compassionately to those victims.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
While the Minister is absolutely right to say that we lead Europe on modern-day slavery, the question asked by the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) goes very much to the heart of the matter: if we want more prosecutions, we need more victims to come forward. The way to do that is that if they are coming into this country irregularly they need a year of leave to remain here so that we can get at these—please excuse this if it is not parliamentary—evil bastards. Will the Minister reply to the hon. Lady’s question: can we have that year?
Rachel Maclean
I can reassure my hon. Friend and all Members in the House that those victims who are working closely with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service are looked at on a case-by-case basis. Where they are assisting the police and the criminal justice system with their inquiries, they are permitted to stay in this country, and our legislation that we are bringing forward will clarify that further. [Interruption.] I have met victims of modern slavery, thank you, I say to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), who is speaking from a sedentary position.
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us try to calm it down. We do not want another week like last week. When Members have asked their question, they do not need to continue.
Rachel Maclean
I hope I have answered my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). I am happy to speak to him in more detail. I make it clear to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley that I have met victims of modern slavery. I have heard their stories, which are shocking, and we are putting all our efforts into preventing these crimes and dealing with the people who perpetrate them.
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)
Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
Crimes of violence against women and girls are abhorrent and have no place in our society. Maggie Blyth has been appointed as the new policing lead for tackling violence against women and girls. We have launched a £5 million safety of women at night fund, and we will be launching a national communications campaign focused on targeting perpetrators, educating young people and ensuring victims can access support.
Tony Lloyd
The sexual abuse and grooming of our young women and men is a heinous crime, and it is outrageous that victims should come into contact with their perpetrators after those perpetrators are released from prison. Successive Home Secretaries, including the present Home Secretary directly, have promised me that action would be taken where appropriate to deport those perpetrators. Can we know what progress has been made? If there has been no progress, will the Home Secretary agree to meet me?
Rachel Maclean
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has indicated that she would be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman. We all recognise the need to tackle these absolutely disgusting crimes, and I am sure that the whole House would support what he is asking for.
Mark Logan
Drugs, speeding and ineffective response times were top issues at the crime forum I held in Breightmet and Tonge with the Haulgh, but it was violence against women that gave me pause during that event. What is being done to tackle violence against women in Bolton?
Rachel Maclean
I thank my hon. Friend for how he is focusing on this issue. We have a national programme to support women and girls’ safety and, as part of that, Greater Manchester has been awarded £1.5 million from the Home Office’s domestic abuse perpetrator programme fund. The fund works with perpetrators to get them to change their behaviour. It is very difficult but important work, and it is taking place specifically in Bolton. One of the partners is Talk, Listen, Change, which has been accredited by the organisation, Respect, as delivering very high-quality interventions.
Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
Police-recorded incidents of antisocial behaviour show a fall from 2.1 million in 2013-14 to 1.8 million in the year to June 2021. The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 provides flexible tools and powers for local agencies to tackle antisocial behaviour.
Ellie Reeves
Following Conservative cuts to the policing budget, the police stations in Penge and Sydenham have both closed. Meanwhile, reports of antisocial behaviour locally have been rising, and recently we have seen a sharp increase in thefts from cars. Will the Minister back Labour’s plan to roll out neighbourhood police hubs to help tackle crime and antisocial behaviour and provide a visible police presence, or will she continue to let down our communities?
Rachel Maclean
The hon. Lady will know that our beating crime plan has set out that neighbourhood hubs are an integral part of the response. Policing in London is the responsibility of the Mayor of London. The Metropolitan Police Service is one of the best-funded forces in the whole country, receiving more than £3 billion in 2021-22, an increase of up to £132.4 million. It already has an additional 2,070 officers on the beat.
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
Last Thursday evening, I was at the Smallthorne Community Centre with the Smallthorne Village Residents Association, local Staffordshire police officers and police community support officers. One of the biggest issues that came up was the antisocial behaviour of a tiny minority of feral youths. Will the Minister tell me: what are we going to do about those youngsters and their parents, to get them out cleaning the streets and looking after the community so that they can pay back my local community for the lives they are ruining?
Rachel Maclean
My hon. Friend strongly represents the views of his constituents. None of us likes to see that type of low-level disruptive crime, which has a devastating impact on communities. I thank him for championing his police force. Our neighbourhood crime plan is an integral part of tackling such crimes.
Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab)
Antisocial behaviour is blighting communities: it has gone up by a woeful 70% across the country in the last year. Since the Conservatives took power, twice as many people say that they never see a police officer on the street. The Leader of the House said:
“I have often found…that a quiet word from a police community support officer can nip…antisocial behaviour in the bud.”—[Official Report, 13 May 2021; Vol. 695, c. 273.]
We totally agree. Will the Minister restore some of the 50% of PCSOs whose posts the Government have cut?
Before the Minister says that she is recruiting 20,000 officers, let me point out that we know that only 400 of the first tranche of 6,000 are in neighbourhood roles. Will she give victims of antisocial behaviour the same rights as other crime victims—if the Government ever get round to publishing the victims Bill—or do they still think that what she describes as “low-level” antisocial behaviour is not worth tackling?
Rachel Maclean
The hon. Lady has taken my words out of context. Neighbourhood crime encompasses a vast spectrum of crimes that have a considerable impact on local communities, as I made clear at the Dispatch Box earlier. Those are a range of crimes that are at the centre of the Government’s response in our beating crime plan. We have made it clear that increasing the number of police officers on the beat is a priority. We are already more than halfway through our plan to deliver an additional 20,000 police officers on the street. The neighbourhood crime plan is part of our plan. It is for local forces to determine the operational priorities in their areas.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
The Minister for Afghan Resettlement (Victoria Atkins)
Through the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, the UK will relocate up to 20,000 at-risk people in the coming years. We are working urgently across Government and with partners such as the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to design the scheme. We continue to support the thousands of people successfully evacuated from Afghanistan under Operation Pitting, and we will continue to support those who come under the scheme when it opens.
Helen Hayes
It is now almost exactly three months since Operation Pitting came to an end. My constituent continues to update me on the situation facing her brother, who is in hiding in Afghanistan with his wife, mother and three small children. Since the evacuation ended, they have lost an uncle and a cousin, both murdered by the Taliban, and they have received numerous threatening messages. They live in daily fear for their lives, yet the Government will not issue papers to give them the best chance of safe passage to the UK via a third country. Does the Minister have any regret that we are three months on and the scheme has not yet opened? When will she give some hope to people in such desperate circumstances as my constituent’s family?
Victoria Atkins
The hon. Lady has articulated the real dangers that many are facing in Afghanistan; I think we can all agree on that. The reality is, however, that the ever-changing security situation in Afghanistan means that we still have no UK consular presence or Army presence there. That is something that we and other countries around the world that are trying to help Afghan people are having to grapple with. We are working at pace and we want to set the scheme up as an example of a safe and legal route under the Government’s new plan for immigration.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Since mid-August, Germany, a country that has not had the military and overall engagement of the UK in Afghanistan, has flown more than 6,000 Afghans to Germany and provided them with protected status under its humanitarian admission programme. Can the Minister tell me what conversations she has had with counterparts in the European countries running such schemes to help to enable the quicker opening of the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme? There is a real risk that the people whom the scheme is intended to help will die before it becomes operational.
Victoria Atkins
I know the hon. Gentleman well, and I know that he will not have overlooked the 15,000 people whom we evacuated during the emergency conditions of Operation Pitting. Of course, there are still agreements carrying on with third-party countries for evacuating people—where it is safe to do so, where checks have been conducted and so on—each and every week. Not only do we have the ACRS in the process of being built, but we are meeting our commitment to those who have worked with the UK Government and the UK Army under the Afghan relocations and assistance policy, so work is ongoing to protect people. We are working with international partners; indeed, I met the German delegation during the Conservative party conference to discuss with them the work the Germans are doing. However, we are very much in the hands of our international partners when it comes to opening up safe and legal routes through Afghanistan to us.
Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I am sure you agree with me, Mr Speaker, that special constables are among the most remarkable citizens in the land. We are bringing forward legislation to enable them to become members of the Police Federation, so that they can access the same support and protection as regular officers. We will also be introducing the police covenant in legislation shortly to ensure further support and protection for the police workforce, including special constables.
Siobhan Baillie
I thank the Minister for his answer. Special constables are often on shift during the busiest periods, as they tend to volunteer at weekends and in the evenings, and as a result are exposed to quite high levels of trauma. I give credit to the Stroud special constables, and ask what my right hon. Friend is doing specifically and actively to support their training for and meet the mental health needs of their unique roles?
Kit Malthouse
I am grateful for the fact that the welfare of this special—in every sense of the word—group of people is at the forefront of my hon. Friend’s mind. She will be pleased to know that the Government continue to fund the national police wellbeing service, which provides support and particularly post-traumatic incident services to all police officers, including special constables. As I said in the earlier part of my answer, there is more that can be done, and by making sure that all special constables are full members of the Police Federation, they will be able to access the significant support that that organisation can provide.
Kim Leadbeater (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
The beating crime plan laid out the Government’s commitments to working with local agencies to drive down antisocial behaviour, and we are committed to ensuring that victims of antisocial behaviour get the response they deserve. The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 introduced specific measures designed to give victims and communities a say in the way that complaints of antisocial behaviour are dealt with, and this includes the community trigger—an important safety net that gives victims of persistent antisocial behaviour the ability to demand a formal case review.
Kim Leadbeater
Does the Minister agree with me that if her Department was fit for purpose, local councillors in my constituency from her party as well as from mine would not be forced to find the funding for neighbourhood policing after 11 o’clock at night, because Government cuts have left the hard-working officers I have met so overstretched in the fight against crime and antisocial behaviour?
Rachel Maclean
I am sure the hon. Member will agree that local councillors of all parties want to tackle the scourge of antisocial behaviour that affects their residents. Local areas have the powers and the funding from the Home Office. The Mayor of West Yorkshire, a Labour Mayor, is receiving up to £510.8 million of funding, which is an increase of £25.8 million on the police settlement of last year, and she has also been able to recruit an extra 619 officers to tackle these priorities.
Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
The Prime Minister issued an instruction that we should roll up county lines, and that is exactly what we have been doing for the last two years. Since 2019, we have invested over £65 million, including over £40 million committed this year. This has already resulted in the closure of more than 1,500 lines, over 7,400 arrests and the safeguarding of more than 4,000 vulnerable adults and children.
Cherilyn Mackrory
I thank the Minister for his answer. I was very pleased, recently, that a county lines dealer who had been flooding towns across Cornwall, including Truro, with drugs was jailed for five and a half years. There is a lot more to do in Cornwall, because we are seeing an increase in the impact of county lines drugs activity and all the crimes that go with it. Can the Minister confirm that the Government are aware of the issues in Cornwall and assure me that they are committed to working with our brilliant police and crime commissioner, Alison Hernandez, and the six Cornish MPs to address the continued problems, in particular how the Government can support the wider roll-out of Project ADDER?
Kit Malthouse
I am focused on the impact of drugs across the whole country, and particularly in areas such as Devon and Cornwall, where I know the chief constable, and Alison Hernandez, the police and crime commissioner, have been doing an enormous amount of work. This problem is so prevalent across the United Kingdom that every part has to work together, and I am pleased that Devon and Cornwall Police have been working closely, particularly with the Metropolitan Police and Merseyside Police, which are the two key exporting forces for drugs into my hon. Friend’s area. She might be interested to know that recently the British Transport Police, which plays a critical part in gripping the network that distributes the drugs, conducted a fixed-point pilot at Basingstoke Station. It intercepted drugs that were heading towards her constituency, and I hope she will soon feel the effects of that.
Danny Kruger
May I echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory)? There have been very successful disruptions to county lines in my Wiltshire constituency, and I pay tribute to Philip Wilkinson, the police and crime commissioner, and to Wiltshire Police. It is great that they can work in partnership with all the Conservative PCCs across our region, and with the Government. The challenge now is to move one level down, below the cities to the market towns and rural areas, which is where the problem with drugs really manifests itself in my area. Will the Minister continue the efforts on county lines, and ensure real support for local efforts at disruption, not just at regional level?
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is exactly right, and as my constituency neighbour he feels the same impact on our rural towns and villages as I do. He is right: as I said earlier, this is such a comprehensive problem that market towns and villages must work with large urban areas, and we have to grip the transport network in between. Particularly key is that we aim to take out those who perpetrate this “business” while sitting in the comfort of their homes in a city. The great development in our effort against county lines has been the ability of the police in Liverpool, west midlands and London—the three big exporting areas—to find those guys and take them out.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
We have been welcoming refugees through the UK resettlement scheme since its launch in March 2021. That commitment will ensure that we continue to offer safe and legal routes to the UK for vulnerable refugees in need of protection, with our focus firmly on helping people from regions of conflict and instability directly.
Munira Wilson
I am proud that Liberal Democrat-run Richmond Council, and many of my constituents, stated early during the Afghan crisis that refugees are welcome in our borough, and that they would work hard to support and rehouse those evacuated. Over the past few weeks some £6,500 has been spent on family homes for evacuees from Afghanistan, but as yet no families have been resettled in those homes. Not only is that a waste of taxpayers’ money, but presumably there are many families in unsuitable hotel accommodation. What is the Minister doing to ensure that families who have been evacuated will be resettled quickly where accommodation is available?
Kevin Foster
The comments by Richmond Council certainly contrasted with the approach that the Lib-Dem leader of Torbay Council took when first asked to take part in the Afghan resettlement scheme, but it made a welcome U-turn and we will play our part. Work is being done across the Government to support those who arrived as part of the emergency evacuation back in August, and those who will arrive under the resettlement scheme, to ensure they can be housed quickly.
Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Tom Pursglove)
Our new plan for immigration makes it easier to remove illegal migrants who have no right to be here. The one-stop process that we are introducing through the Nationality and Borders Bill will be fundamental to delivering on that in future. The Home Secretary has also been setting up a mix of formal and informal returns agreements with other countries, in order to tackle the drivers of illegal migration. Examples of that work include our new formal arrangements with India and Albania.
Tom Hunt
Does the Minister agree that when millions of people voted to leave the European Union, they did so to take back control of our borders—no ifs, no buts—and on our own terms, not only if the French agree? Does he also agree that, in a spirit of taking back control, we need to intensify our movements towards offshore processing, which we know was successful in Australia where, when it was introduced, the numbers fell of a cliff straightaway?
Tom Pursglove
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is a passionate advocate for his constituents on this issue. I, too, was on the frontline of that campaign in 2016, and I am very sympathetic to the point that he makes. There is no one single solution to this problem. The measures that we are introducing through the Nationality and Borders Bill are comprehensive, but we also need that co-operation with our French partners, and to tackle this issue upstream.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Tom Pursglove)
Our Nationality and Borders Bill sets out comprehensive measures to deter illegal crossings, tackle the criminal gangs responsible and protect lives. We are using all available options to bring crossing numbers down. The Home Secretary and the French Interior Minister agreed to accelerate the delivery of their joint determination to prevent all crossings and make this deadly route unviable.
Mr Hollobone
Given that we have given tens of millions of pounds to the French, including in night-vision equipment, automatic number plate recognition technology and access to drones, is it not completely disgraceful for large groups of French police to be pictured on the beaches in France waving large boats of migrants across the channel, as we have seen in recent days? If we are giving the French this money, please can we insist that they use it to stop this illegal flow?
Tom Pursglove
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour for his question. The Home Secretary had a constructive conversation last week with the French Interior Minister. He has repeatedly said that the determination is to stop 100% of these crossings. We entirely support that endeavour, and we must work towards that end. Clearly, the policing response on French beaches is integral to that, but it is also welcome that, for example, there has been a greater effort to disband some of the camps that we have seen around beaches.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
The kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police officer was devastating. I am launching an independent inquiry into exactly what happened, and I am pleased to confirm to the House that the right hon. Dame Elish Angiolini QC has agreed to be the chair of that inquiry. Dame Elish is an exceptionally distinguished lawyer, academic and public servant. Her extensive experience includes a review of deaths in police custody, as well as a review for the Scottish Government of the handling of complaints and alleged misconduct against police officers.
The inquiry will be made up of two parts. Part 1 will examine how this monster was able to serve as a police officer for so long and seek to establish a definitive account of his conduct. The independent police inspectorate is already looking at vetting and counter-corruption capability, which will enable the inquiry to examine vetting and re-vetting procedures in detail, including his transfers between forces. Part 1 will also seek to understand the extent to which his behaviour rang alarm bells with his colleagues. The chair will report to me as soon as is practical. The Home Office will then publish the report, and I will set out the terms of reference for part 2, which will consider the broader implications for policing arising from part 1.
The inquiry will begin as a non-statutory inquiry, because I want to give Sarah’s family closure as quickly as possible. As Members know, statutory inquiries can be long-running, with limited flexibility; sometimes, recommendations are not made for a number of years. However, I will not rule out converting this inquiry to a statutory footing should Dame Elish feel that she is unable to fulfil the terms of reference on a non-statutory basis.
Sarah Everard’s life was ended too early by an evil man whose job it was to protect her. We owe it to her, and to her loved ones and her family, to prevent something like this ever happening again.
Tim Farron
I thank the Home Secretary for her reply, and I very much welcome what she has said at length.
Eighty per cent. of the working-age population living in the Lake district already works in hospitality and tourism. The Home Secretary will see that there is therefore no reservoir of domestic labour available to fill the gap left by her restrictive new visa rules. Will she recognise that we have a special case in the Lake district? We are the biggest visitor destination in the country outside of London, with one of the smallest populations. Will she meet me, and tourism industry chiefs in the lakes and the dales, so that we can come up with a youth mobility visa with European countries to solve the problem and get our economy working again?
Priti Patel
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I would like to praise his hospitality sector. He represents a very beautiful part of the country. Of course, we want hospitality and tourism to thrive across the United Kingdom. I would be delighted, together with my colleagues, to meet him and his hospitality sector. Youth mobility is not just an EU matter; it is now a global matter. There is a great deal of work taking place on youth mobility schemes, including work that we are doing with countries outside the EU.
Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is right to highlight her farmers’ excellent Cornish produce; I have sampled much of it, through her. First and foremost, through our reforms to the immigration system, there are routes in place already to provide support to the agriculture sector. I have been working with colleagues in DEFRA on that. She will be very familiar with the seasonal agricultural worker pilot scheme; as she will recall, we have increased the number of people who, through that scheme, can work in key agricultural sectors. Finally, she will be aware that a great deal of work is taking place in DEFRA to ensure more investment in people in the domestic labour market, so we are investing in skills.
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
I welcome the appointment of the chair of the inquiry set up following the terrible Sarah Everard case, but I say to the Home Secretary: put it on a statutory footing now. The Daniel Morgan inquiry was on a non-statutory basis, and it still took eight years, so time is not an argument for not doing that.
The year before the Home Secretary was appointed, 297 people risked their life crossing the English channel in small boats. This year, 25,700 have made that perilous journey. The Home Secretary has blamed the French Government for this, and the European Union. Over the weekend, there were even reports that she is yet again trying to shift blame to officials in her Department. A simple question: why will she not show some leadership and accept the responsibility that lies with her for this dangerous situation?
Priti Patel
First and foremost, on the public inquiry that I have announced on the murder of Sarah Everard, I restate for the record and for the right hon. Gentleman that I will work with Dame Elish. I have also been very clear to Sarah Everard’s parents, who do not want this to drag on. We owe it to Sarah’s family in particular to make sure that the inquiry works for them, and that they are protected throughout the process. I have had conversations and dialogue with them about that.
On channel crossings, leadership absolutely is on the side of this Government. That is why we are bringing forward the new plan for immigration. The right hon. Gentleman will be well aware that crossings do not happen automatically; they happen through migrant movements, and through people smugglers not just in France but further upstream, right back into Africa. A great deal of work is taking place across the whole of Government. Yes, we are trying to stop the crossings and break up the gangs—
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Government deal with the French authorities is failing. The Government have closed down safe routes, such as the Dubs scheme, and they have cut the aid budget, which was addressing the reasons why people flee their homes. They do not even have successor agreements in place to the Dublin III regulation. Last week, while chatting to journalists in Washington, the Home Secretary yet again vowed to make the channel crossing route unviable, but nothing happens, and ever more people continue to risk their life. Will the Home Secretary admit that the fact that the Cabinet Office has been brought in to try to sort this out is a sign that she has lost the trust of not only the country, but her colleagues?
Mr Speaker
Order. There are other people in this Chamber who matter. I have granted an urgent question in which most of this can be debated. Come on, Home Secretary.
Priti Patel
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question is no, throughout.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. That is why the legislation has been put together in conjunction with the Ministry of Justice, which has an important role in working with specialist immigration law firms and changing our laws. He will know the details of the Nationality and Borders Bill and the comprehensive work that is taking place.
Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
I am certainly happy to look into the matter and meet the hon. Member about the case to which she refers. We have put additional resources into the Windrush compensation scheme team to ensure that we can get the decisions that people deserve.
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He clearly understands the importance and significance of proscribing Hamas in all its forms. When the motion comes to the House for debate this week, I hope that all Members of this House will support it, because clearly inciting and supporting terrorist activity is simply wrong.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
The Minister for Afghan Resettlement (Victoria Atkins)
The hon. Lady will know that I cannot answer that question on the Floor of the House, but I am very happy to take the name of her constituent afterwards. I have to emphasise, however, that if people remain in Afghanistan, as I have set out on the Floor of the House and in my “Dear colleague” letter, we simply cannot casework them at the moment in the way that parliamentarians would expect, because of the security situation in Afghanistan.
Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There should be no room for confusion in people’s minds: drugs are bad in all their forms, and this Government will do everything we can to restrict supply and deal with demand.
Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thames-mead) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the importance of the police force’s response to the domestic abuse of all victims. I will be very happy to meet her.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
Kit Malthouse
My hon. Friend is right, and he will know that through the Uplift programme we are pushing hard to increase the diversity of UK policing so that the police force looks like the population whom it seeks to protect and represent. We have instituted a review of vetting across policing and, indeed, wider work on police integrity generally, but we are also talking to police leaders about the signal that they send internally within the force to create a culture that inspires trust and a sense of integrity in the British people. I should add that it is important that the police fulfil the basic expectations of every single subject in this land, and in doing so inspire the trust that my hon. Friend seeks.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
Victoria Atkins
I entirely understand the concern of the hon. Gentleman and, indeed, the House about the situation in Afghanistan, but the reality is as it is on the ground. We wish it were otherwise, but it is not, so we are working apace—but carefully—to ensure that when the scheme is launched it works well for the people who are eligible for it and works well over the years in which it will operate. There is, I am afraid, no quick answer to this; we must act carefully, and we must reflect the reality on the ground in Afghanistan.
Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)
A few moments ago the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), quoted the number of people who had crossed the channel in small boats, and used that number to attack my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the best way to deal with people crossing to these shores illegally is to support the Nationality and Borders Bill, and will she join me in condemning the Opposition parties who vote against every single measure?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Tom Pursglove)
My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. It is particularly staggering that in Committee the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), condemned the record of the previous Labour Government, who used to argue that people should not be making crossings of this sort, and that they should claim asylum in the first safe country that they reach. That is exactly what should happen.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
There are many reasons why domestic abuse victims may not be able to report abuse and violence straight away, including the fact that that abuse and violence is continuing, but when they do, too often an unfair six-month time limit on prosecuting common assault domestic abuse means that they are denied justice and the perpetrators are let off. I tabled an amendment to lift the limit, and it is being debated this afternoon in the House of Lords. Will the Home Secretary now accept that amendment, and give justice to thousands of domestic abuse victims who are currently being denied it?
Priti Patel
We have always been clear about support for domestic abuse victims. The right hon. Lady will recognise that in the landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021, the work done in both Houses during its passage, and our response to everyone who has been a victim of domestic abuse. From a policing perspective, I should say that resources are there, and that we are doing everything possible to join up the system with the criminal justice system and the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that all the necessary support exists for those victims.
Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s announcement of the new chair of the Sarah Everard inquiry, but, as has been mentioned, even non-statutory inquiries can be very long. Can the Home Secretary assure us that the necessary steps on vetting and the treatment of and sanctions in relation to sexual misconduct allegations will be taken in the interim?
Priti Patel
Absolutely, and that is why we are pressing ahead with the inquiry on this particular basis. Let me say to all colleagues throughout the House that throughout all the discussions, and in view of the obvious sensitivities surrounding the murder of Sarah Everard, much thought and consideration has been given to the timeframe, but we are looking at the most pressing issues to see what lessons can be learnt and applied to policing as soon as possible.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
A number of Government Departments have withdrawn from the Stonewall diversity champion scheme over concerns about the misrepresentation of equalities law and the resultant failure to respect the rights of all protected characteristics. What are the plans of the Home Office in respect of its membership of that scheme?
Priti Patel
I will write to the hon. and learned Lady and tell her what the overall position is across Government.
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that the single most important step any sovereign nation can take in protecting its own borders against illegal immigration is offshore processing?
Tom Pursglove
It is fair to say that, through the Nationality and Borders Bill, we are putting in place a comprehensive package of measures to deal with this issue. Central to that work is the issue of offshore processing, and we reserve the position to do exactly that.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will be acutely aware that Colin Pitchfork, the double child rapist and murderer, is now back behind bars. The fact that he was released in the first place shows that something is profoundly wrong at the heart of the system. What conversations is she having with the Justice Secretary to ensure that this never happens again?
Priti Patel
This is a very important case, and many conversations are taking place across Government, particularly with the Justice Secretary, the Ministry of Justice and the Parole Board. I cannot add any more than that. Obviously there are some things out in the public domain, but a lot of discussions are taking place right now. This should never happen.
Channel Crossings in Small Boats
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Home Secretary to make a statement on the channel crossings in small boats.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
The number of people coming into our country illegally on small boats is unacceptable. It is the result of a global migration crisis. Just last week, I met my counterparts in the US, who are grappling with similar diplomatic, legal, legislative and operational issues. It is fair to say that in all my dialogues with counterparts and Interior Ministers, including the Polish Interior Minister this morning, similar feedback is taking place across the board.
We would be in a much worse position if it were not for the work already untaken by the Government. We have ensured that the National Crime Agency has the resourcing it needs to tackle and go after the people-smuggling gangs, resulting in 94 ongoing investigations, 46 arrests and eight convictions this year. We have also: reached two new deals with France, putting more police officers on French beaches and introducing new groundbreaking technology to better detect migrants; set up a joint intelligence cell with France to target migrant interceptions on French beaches; introduced new and tougher criminal offences for those attempting to enter the UK illegally; laid statutory instruments to stop asylum claims being made at sea; and agreed returns deals with India and Albania—and had discussions just last week with Pakistan—to take back more foreign national offenders and failed asylum seekers, with more returns deals imminent.
All these measures form part of the new plan for immigration, which I launched in this House in February this year. The remaining components of that plan are currently making their way through Parliament in the Nationality and Borders Bill, and I look forward to working with all colleagues to ensure that it receives Royal Assent as soon as possible. The Bill introduces a range of measures, including but not limited to: a one-stop appeals process; the ability for asylum claims to be heard offshore in a third country; the ability to declare those who arrive in the UK having passed through safe countries where they could have claimed asylum inadmissible to our asylum system, meaning no recourse to public funds and limited family reunion rights; visa penalties for countries refusing to take back their nationals; quicker returns of foreign national offenders; and a new age verification to prevent adult asylum seekers from posing as children.
If any hon. or right hon. Members have concrete proposals that are not already featured in the new plan for immigration, I would be happy to meet to discuss them. My door is always open, particularly to those from the Opposition Benches because of course they attack the new plan for immigration. They have not supported it and they voted against it, not because they are genuinely frustrated at the number of illegal migrants entering our country, as those on this side of the House and the British public are, but because they will always stand up for unlimited migration and free movement. They have always said that and always will do. That is why they have voted against the new plan to tackle crossings, with the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) opposing the development of operational solutions to turn back the boats. He even refuses to say if his ambition is to reduce the number of illegal migrants coming here. Can he do so today?
Those on the Government Benches will continue to confront this difficult and complex issue, no matter how controversial or complex others may deem it to be. We will find legislative and operational solutions, and we will treat this with the same grit and determination with which we have treated all the other challenges our country has faced, including leaving the European Union and delivering a points-based immigration system. Let me restate, as I did in February and have done repeatedly, that this will take time. The only solution to this problem is wholesale reform of our asylum system, which the new plan delivers.
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Some 25,700 people have risked their lives in these most dangerous shipping lanes this year alone. As the Home Secretary knows, the Government have already spent more than £200 million of taxpayers’ money on deals with the French authorities that are not working. The situation is getting worse. Will the Government commit to transparency on how the money is spent?
On 9 August, I asked the Home Office to facilitate a visit for me to Calais so that I could scrutinise what the money was being spent on. I eventually had a response last month from the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), referring me to the Foreign Office. I still have no substantive response. What do Ministers have to hide? I am conscious that I am being challenged about our position on the Nationality and Borders Bill, so let me make it absolutely clear: a Bill that breaches the refugee convention, that reduces protections for victims of modern slavery and that will not help the situation in the channel is not worthy of the Opposition’s support.
The Home Secretary has repeatedly made pledges that the route across the channel will be made unviable, but, as usual with this Government, it is all empty rhetoric and broken promises. The Home Secretary has blamed everyone but herself, and now we know that the Minister for the Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve Barclay) has been brought in to look at this. Can we have some clarity from the Government? Who is actually in charge of immigration policy? Is it the Home Secretary or the Cabinet Office? Is not the fact that another Cabinet Minister has had to be brought in evidence that the Home Secretary has lost control of this dangerous situation?
Priti Patel
Of course, this would be the time of the week where we hear complete and utter nonsense coming from the Opposition Benches—for a change, I should add. Let me start with a number of facts. The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) asks about the Cabinet Office’s involvement; that is because—to restate something I have said again and again—this is a whole-of-Government effort. There is no single solution to fixing a global migration crisis. He speaks about a visit to Calais; from my last record, the United Kingdom is not responsible for visits to Calais, but I will happily take him to some of our processing sites around the country.
However, let us be very clear. The right hon. Gentleman has stated yet again that his party will not support the new plan for immigration or the Nationality and Borders Bill, which is the long-term solution to breaking the model, to reforming the asylum system, to deterring illegal migration and to addressing the underlying pull factors of the UK’s asylum system. It will introduce a one-stop appeals process, which clearly he and his party are against; it will ensure that asylum claims can be heard offshore in a third country and it will ensure that those individuals who come to our country not as genuine asylum seekers, but as economic migrants, can claim asylum in first safe countries. That is on top of a raft of operational and diplomatic work that is taking place—not just in France, by the way, but in Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Greece and Italy. We still speak to our European counterparts, and it is important that the Labour party acknowledges that Interior Ministers collectively have recognised a global migration problem.
I have said from the outset that this problem will take time to fix and that there is no silver bullet. The only solution is wholesale reform of our asylum system. Labour has consistently voted against the plan to do that. Instead of making practical suggestions, the Opposition are totally divorced from reality. They do not have a viable plan. The right hon. Gentleman constantly says that I should deepen my co-operation with France, while also criticising the Government for giving money to France to patrol its beaches. He has suggested the problem is down to reduced aid—failing to note that France is not a recipient of UK aid.
All the while the Nationality and Borders Bill is in Committee in the Commons, yet the Labour party continues to defend the rights of foreign national offenders, including murderers, rapists and those involved in the drugs trade—criminals, Mr Speaker. Labour has objected to provisions designed to prevent late submissions of evidence used to block removals of the very people we are trying to remove from our country, as well as to the one-stop-shop appeals process; it has opposed measures to tighten up immigration bail and to stop illegal migrants absconding. I come back to my opening remarks: we have a long-term plan to address these issues, while the Labour party will do everything possible to stop that plan from coming together.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
What is the Home Secretary’s message to someone thinking of undertaking one of these illegal journeys, at great cost, as to why they should not take that risk and why it will not work?
Priti Patel
This is why we are bringing in new legislation. These individuals are putting their lives at risk and putting their lives in the hands of people smugglers. I come back to the work we are doing with the National Crime Agency, which has the resources and is going after the gangs, resulting in 94 ongoing investigations, 46 arrests and convictions—the last conviction was made last week, of an Albanian people smuggler.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
Nobody wants to see people risking their lives in crossing the channel, but it is time for the Government to swap sensationalist rhetoric and barbaric Bills for evidence-based policy. The fact is that a significant majority of these people are likely refugees—Home Office officials have previously acknowledged that and so should the Home Secretary. Regardless of whether they are or not, these people should be treated decently and fairly, not criminalised, offshored or warehoused. The Home Secretary’s Bill is picking on asylum seekers instead of people smugglers—it is desperate stuff. There is no silver bullet, but we need co-operation with our neighbours to tackle smugglers and a two-way transfer agreement that allows for families to be reunited here, as well as for removals, where appropriate and lawful. In other words, we need to fix the problems that Brexit has caused. The Brexiteers have made their bed and they should lie in it. The Government cannot legislate their way out of this. We know already that inadmissibility rules have made things worse, not better. We know that offshoring will cost a fortune, will not work, and will destroy lives and any credibility that the UK has left—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Gullis, you have been catching my eye far too often. If you don’t behave, I’ll have a word with your mother.
Stuart C. McDonald
I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, as that gives me the chance to repeat that we know already that offshoring will cost a fortune, will not work, and will destroy lives and any credibility that the UK has left. So it is time for the Government to ditch the criminalisation and the other cloud cuckoo policies that the Home Secretary’s own civil servants are criticising, and start working with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and the independent inspector of borders, with their real-world, evidence-based and lawful recommendations.
Priti Patel
I am going to restate that the Nationality and Borders Bill, which is going through Parliament, will make life harder for the criminal gangs behind these crossings—all Members should be supporting that. It means that people smugglers could face a life behind bars, and the hon. Gentleman should be supporting that. We will strengthen Border Force’s powers to stop and redirect vessels and to search shipping containers to ensure that migrants are not being smuggled. Importantly, this will break the deadly business models of these smugglers. In addition, we want to make sure that the UK is less attractive to illegal migrants. He claims that all the people coming to the UK are genuine asylum seekers, but they are not, and the evidence shows that. Even the authorities in France say that 70% of people crossing the channel and entering France, and northern France in particular, are single men and they are economic migrants.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. The people responsible for this situation are the people traffickers, who sell false hope to the vulnerable. The only way we can address this is by working with our partners, allies and friends. Will my right hon. Friend join the campaign to ensure that this item is No. 1 at the next United Nations General Assembly?
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I am grateful to her because she has made one of the most intelligent contributions on this whole issue about people smugglers and working with counterparts in the world. I appreciate that Opposition Members completely reject relationship-building and speaking on a multilateral level, including with the United States; I noticed in particular the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) heckling earlier on. This is a very important point, because people smuggling and modern-day slavery is an international trade, and the Government have a proud history of and record on legislating, standing up and speaking out against it.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will understand that heightened rhetoric is not a substitute for practical, sensible measures that help in reality.
May I ask the right hon. Lady specifically about intelligence and joint surveillance work? Will she confirm that we were told in the Home Affairs Committee last week that drones, including UK funded drones, are not currently operating along the French coast as a result of a court case in France back in July, which we are hoping will be resolved by legislation in France over the next few months? We need France’s co-operation to do that. Will she further confirm that even UK drones in UK airspace are not operating more than five days a week? Why is that? Obviously, the criminal gangs do not stop at weekends.
Priti Patel
On France’s legislation, I have had discussions with my counterpart on that issue in the last week. Legislation is passing through the French Parliament because France has different surveillance laws. We have always been clear about that.
The right hon. Lady asked about technology. I have made a range of propositions to the French Interior Minister about surveillance and technology and the use of various other types of technology equipment—sensors on the beach and ANPR in particular. From my conversation and bilateral discussions with the Interior Minister last Monday, I tell the House now that he has accepted the use of all those.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Would the excellent Home Secretary agree that the sensible and humane way to deal with this problem is for the French to agree a returns policy? In that way, we could give immigrants turning up on our shore a hot cup of tea and ensure that they had warm clothing, and they could be put back on the first ferry to Calais. That would make the cross-channel route unviable. It would be good for France, it would be good for the United Kingdom, and it would be devastating for the criminal people trafficking gangs.
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend has made a very important point about returns agreements, in particular with France. France assumes the presidency of the European Council next month, and this is an ongoing discussion that we are having with them. I am actively pursuing the issue, but I want to be very clear and realistic: it is only one aspect of the wider situation of dealing with illegal migration.
People are not just coming from France; they are coming from the Sahel, from Africa and from Libya through the Mediterranean route—this is a much wider issue than France. But obviously, returns agreements are crucial, absolutely pivotal, and they are one part of our wider plan.
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)
The increasing anti-refugee, anti-migration rhetoric of the Home Secretary has left many of my hard-working constituents extremely fearful for their futures, particularly given the continued hostile environment created by the Home Office and her last-minute amendment to the Nationality and Borders Bill that would allow the Home Office to strip ordinary British nationals of their citizenship without warning. Stripping citizenship from ordinary people robs them of one of their most fundamental human rights and defies international law. When will the Home Secretary stop this hostile environment? When will she stop persecuting my law abiding constituents?
Priti Patel
I will be very happy to drop the hon. Gentleman a line with the full facts about the amendment, rather than responding to the rhetoric that he has just given.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Like the Home Secretary and many other Members of this House, I am the descendant of immigrants who came to this country legally. I am campaigning for more immigrants to be brought here legally who are at risk in Afghanistan.
What I cannot understand is how people who come here illegally—particularly those who, having done that, commit very serious crimes—cannot then be deported because they apparently have absolute rights conferred by various conventions. Most rights are capable of being overridden in extreme circumstances. If we are signed up to such conventions, is it not about time we reviewed them?
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend makes some important points. First, as a country we always stand by our international obligations when it comes to people who are fleeing persecution and in need of refuge. That is what the Nationality and Borders Bill does and why we are creating safe and legal routes. My right hon. Friend will be familiar with much of our work that has taken place thus far with, for example, British nationals overseas—people from Hong Kong—and the work that is taking place on Afghanistan.
The removal of people with no legal right to be in the United Kingdom and all rights exhausted is at the heart of the new plan for immigration and the Nationality and Borders Bill, because too many last-minute claims come through immigration courts and tribunals and prevent the Government from removing people who have no legal right to be here. They include foreign national offenders, including rapists and murderers—people who have committed awful and abhorrent crimes on the streets of the United Kingdom. I have to say it is quite telling that there is a great deal of lobbying from the Labour party to actually stand by many of these foreign national offenders and keep them in our country.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Plaid Cymru rejects the cynical framing of this issue as a crisis of numbers; the true crisis is a lack of humanity from a succession of Westminster Governments who scapegoat legitimate asylum seekers and refugees. In Wales, we take a different approach, with our stated ambition to be a nation of sanctuary for all people who seek support and flee persecution. Sadly, asylum remains a reserved matter. What consideration has the Home Secretary given to the lack of compatibility of her approach to channel crossings with that of Wales, with our nation of sanctuary and asylum seekers plan?
Priti Patel
It is important to restate, for the right hon. Lady’s benefit and that of all colleagues, that, as she will know, through the new plan for immigration and the work we are doing with the Nationality and Borders Bill, we are crystal clear about giving refuge to people who are fleeing persecution through safe and legal routes. That is in line with the refugee convention. I spend a great deal of time speaking to the UNHCR, the International Organisation for Migration and other international agencies that will work with us on this issue. I have to say that the right hon. Lady offered a slight mischaracterisation of the Nationality and Borders Bill.
Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the robustness of her language and her clear desire to stop irregular crossings. Poland has very much welcomed international assistance; I recommend that she makes a broad and generous offer to her French counterparts and asks how many British police, Border Force staff and, perhaps, troops we can put on site—on the beaches in France—to assist in their efforts and arrest more evil people smugglers.
Priti Patel
Let me put my hon. Friend’s mind at ease and at peace: I have done exactly that.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
The Home Secretary spoke earlier about the importance of viable plans; does she still consider the use of wave machines in the channel to turn back small boats to be a viable plan? Does she still consider the sending of desperate asylum seekers to a third country, such as Albania, to be a viable plan? When will she stop using desperate asylum seekers as pawns in this Government’s culture wars?
Priti Patel
I categorically reject that notion and the right hon. Lady’s points. She mentioned wave machines; I have never ever suggested or recommended them. I say that for clarity and on the record for the House. As for the other matters, the right hon. Lady has heard me say this afternoon—I refer her to my earlier comments—that her party objects to changing our asylum system, fixing a broken system and, actually, improving the processing of asylum claims, which would, by the way, be of benefit to the individuals who have come to our country illegally. We want to make sure that we have a differentiated approach so that those people who are in genuine need get the support they need and those who have no legal grounds to be here are removed.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Is there a danger that we raise expectations with the Nationality and Borders Bill unless there is an iron will on the part of Ministers to use the powers once they get them? And can my right hon. Friend not just tell the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) to make his own way to Calais?
Priti Patel
I say to my right hon. Friend that there is no lack of iron and no lack of will when it comes to the resolution and determination of myself, the Home Office and Ministers across the whole of Government to deliver the Nationality and Borders Bill.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
The Home Affairs Committee was told recently that the total number of asylum seekers returned so far this year to the European Union was five and of course the Dublin regulation, which did permit the return of asylum seekers in certain circumstances to other EU member states, is no longer available to the Government. Could the Home Secretary tell the House how negotiations are going on trying to replace the Dublin regulation?
Priti Patel
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question because it is important to recognise that Dublin was not effective and did not work, and the people who have been removed to other EU countries were removed because they were inadmissible to the asylum system, in the light of the changes in the statutory instruments that I brought in earlier this year.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
The Nationality and Borders Bill will indeed be a significant piece of legislation to prevent illegal English channel migration crossings from taking place and it is shameful that the Labour party is voting against it. But it will be many months before that legislation is on the statute books, so what measures can be taken now, particularly in terms of security screening those who are attempting to enter the United Kingdom?
Priti Patel
Let me reassure my hon. Friend that screening takes place, as does interviewing and questioning of everyone who enters our country illegally. So let me be very clear about that. Any notion that that that is not taking place is completely wrong. He is right about the Bill. It is passing through the Commons right now, but, believe you me, Mr Speaker, we will do everything possible to look at how we can accelerate the passing of that legislation if we need to, particularly as the Labour party has made its opposition to it so publicly known.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
A few moments ago, the Home Secretary said that she wanted to welcome people who were genuinely fleeing persecution, but how can she know unless we go through due process with people who apply and claim asylum in this country? I am certain that she will also know that, per capita, the United Kingdom takes fewer asylum seekers each year than 23 members of the European Union. She will also know that we are not seeing a rise in the number of people seeking asylum in this country. We are seeing a greater number of people coming via the most dangerous routes. She will also know that, in order to stop people from taking utterly dangerous routes that we do not want them to take, she will need to provide safe routes because, without doing so, she plays into the hands of the people smugglers and she damages those people she says she wants to support.
Priti Patel
I know that this is a statement of the obvious, but many EU countries, including France, are safe countries, which is why not only the British Government, but other Governments around the world, including across the EU, pursue the principle of first safe country. I am sure that, if the hon. Gentleman engaged with other colleagues across EU member states, they would all recognise the extent of illegal migration and the impact that that is having on their own countries as well. With regard to safe and legal routes, we are very clear—we have stated this in Committee and I have stated it many times—that we are working with UNHCR and the IOM because it is through that partnership, at a multilateral level, that we will form these safe and legal routes. They will be crucial partners to identify the very people—as we saw with the Syrian resettlement scheme—who are fleeing persecution and need refuge.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
The Home Secretary should be aware of the very great anger of my constituents at the scenes that they see in the channel today and at the fact that these migrants are being inappropriately accommodated in a central Blackpool hotel. We hear much about France, but we know that these migrants are being held in both Belgium and Germany in a holding pattern only to be taken to France in the final 24 hours when the weather is conducive to a crossing. What steps is she taking to negotiate with both the Belgian and the German Governments to have a more combative approach to disrupting this pattern of delivering them to France?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend has raised some important points. He asked about the discussions taking place with France, Belgium and Germany. There are plenty of discussions. In the past two weeks, I have had discussions with all three of those countries in terms of the work that needs to happen. I should also emphasise for the benefit of the House that it is the EU Commission that leads on illegal migration and that member states themselves are not supposed to engage on a bilateral level, and they are all breaking out of that cycle right now because of their own frustration with the Commission’s inability to grip this issue.
My hon. Friend asked about the issue of accommodation, about which his constituents are absolutely right to be angry. As I said in Home Office questions, we want to end the use of hotels. As part of the new plan for immigration, the Home Office and others across Government are looking to deliver reception centres.
Finally, my hon. Friend mentioned holding groups in Germany, Belgium and France. France, in particular, is clearing the camps. It is literally seeing the type of patterns that it has seen over the last decade, with migrant camps now reforming. Those camps are being cleared on a regular basis, and one of the largest camps was cleared last week.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
One of my constituents, who has worked for maritime search and rescue, and has been saving lives at sea for more than a decade, is extremely concerned about the inherent risks of pushbacks at sea, as they can be highly dangerous manoeuvres and lead to loss of life. He is concerned, as am I, that the Government are proposing pushbacks in one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, so on his behalf I ask the Home Secretary: what legal advice have the Government taken on pushbacks; and if a migrant were to die during a pushback, who would be legally accountable for the death?
Priti Patel
It is important to say that all operational work—with Border Force and the maritime tactics team—is based on Government legal advice. Extensive legal advice has been taken on the issue. Specific training has taken place on operationalising tactics, alongside all the investment and the resources that have been put in place. The hon. Lady will be well aware, through her constituent, that there is an operational gold command that has responsibility for exercising the operations, and all the authorisations and powers within the legal framework to deliver those tactics.
Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)
Now then, seeing thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants coming across the channel is not the points-based immigration system that I thought we were going to adopt when we got to this place, so will my right hon. Friend please confirm that the best way to control illegal immigration is through offshore processing, and getting the Labour party over there to grow a backbone and back the borders Bill?
Priti Patel
It is self-evident. I do not want to enter the confused politics of the Labour party when it comes to migration, ending free movement and all of that, because Labour has resolutely voted against everything that we have done on immigration since the general election. The Nationality and Borders Bill is an end-to-end approach. There is no silver bullet. If there was, clearly we would not be seeing thousands of migrants entering our country illegally; not only that—solutions would have been found by now. Wholescale reform is vital, which is why we have the Bill. I am the first Home Secretary in 20 years to look at end-to-end reform of the system. I have worked on that reform for 18 months and introduced it in February this year. I urge all colleagues, certainly on the Government Benches, to back the Bill and focus on its delivery.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the Home Secretary was clearly not a fan of the Dublin regulation, so will she explain what negotiations are taking place to replace it? Will she also explain what we would do with individuals if we moved them to Albania or any other third country, and they failed the asylum system?
Priti Patel
First, I apologise to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), because he did ask specifically about negotiations. There are a range of negotiations taking place, but he specifically asked about Dublin in relation to the EU. As he has heard me say already, that is an EU competency issue right now. We are having active discussions—this would not keep the Commission happy—with France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Germany, Italy, Greece, as of today Poland, and other countries. This is really important. They are having discussions with us because of their own frustration with the lack of progress in tackling wider long-term and long-scale issues around illegal migration, as well as returns and readmissions. All Governments are very much concentrating on these topics right now.
The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) asked about third country offshoring. We will look at all options right now; it is right and proper that we do so. Not only that—we will look at resettlement routes for people who have entered our country legally and have no legal rights to be here. If they cannot be returned to their own country, it is right that we look at how we can resettle them elsewhere in the long term.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The Nationality and Borders Bill will make a significant difference in helping to address the challenges that we are facing, but does the Home Secretary agree that it is wholly unacceptable for the French authorities to turn a blind eye to small boats crossing, and does she accept that in doing so they are placing some of the most vulnerable people at risk?
Priti Patel
My right hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of vulnerability and our work with France. Just last week, I had dialogue and discussions bilaterally with my French counterpart, the French Interior Minister. There is wholesale recognition in the French system and across the French Government that a widescale crisis is taking place. The numbers that they are seeing in northern France are unprecedented. I know that the Labour party thinks that this is moving responsibility elsewhere, but we have to recognise that the root cause is the upstream routes where people are coming from and the fact that Schengen open borders mean that there are no border controls across the EU member states. A lot of work is taking place with our Government. We are being very strong activists and leaning into border protections not just domestically through our own legislative policies, but in some of the EU countries that have not been doing enough themselves.
Ms Anum Qaisar (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Facts matter, not sensational, xenophobic rhetoric peddled by this Government. Last month, the Home Secretary made the inaccurate claim that 70% of people who arrive in the UK by small boats are effectively economic migrants—[Interruption.] Well, no, because research from the Refugee Council this month confirms that that statement is inaccurate and instead shows that two thirds of people arriving here on small boats are deemed to be genuine refugees. Will she therefore withdraw her remarks?
Priti Patel
In the interests of accuracy, 70% of people crossing are single men and they are economic migrants.
Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the UK Government who are addressing the challenge of illegal immigration for the first time in decades, tackling the people smugglers, tackling illegal arrivals and removing those who should not be in our country, with a Bill that will protect those in genuine and immediate need, and that Opposition Members have perversely and repeatedly voted against?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because at the heart of the Bill is the simple principle that our immigration system should protect those in genuine need—people fleeing persecution and those in immediate need—and not act as a magnet for those living in safe places such as France and Belgium.
Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
Putting your life and the lives of your loved ones on the line, in the hands of people smugglers, is an act of total and utter desperation—a last resort for many people fleeing war and persecution when no alternative is available to them. Does the Home Secretary agree that expanding the range of safe and legal routes into the UK is essential if we are to address the situation unfolding in the English channel?
Priti Patel
I refer the hon. Gentleman to my earlier comments. Safe and legal routes cannot be delivered on their own. We will be working with international partners such as the UNHCR and the IOM, in the same way that we have done with the Syrian resettlement scheme, to ensure that we support those who are fleeing persecution. I hope that is a policy that he will support.
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
The Human Rights Act 1998 has handed power to unelected judges and it is clear that the creeping power of the courts is directly interfering in our ability to get a grip of our asylum and immigration policies. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we are finally going to stop bogus asylum seekers routinely coming to the UK, it is time to scrap the Human Rights Act altogether?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend makes an important point about asylum claims, courts and tribunals, the prevarication, the delays and the frustration. That is why we have the Nationality and Borders Bill. That is why we will introduce, as part of one of the measures, a one-stop appeals process because, as we know, claimants go back again and again, care of UK taxpayers. We want to break that cycle; we want to stop that. We will, through that Bill, reform immigration courts and tribunals to deal with cases in a much more effective way.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Can I just gently remind the Home Secretary that it is her party that has been in power since 2010? Is it therefore a matter of incompetence on behalf of her Government that only five people have been removed in the past 12 months?
Priti Patel
The answer to that is no. Actually, it is a fact that we are developing returns agreements, including with India and Albania, and last week we were in discussions with Pakistan. Those are some of the countries that top the list in terms of failed asylum seekers and foreign national offenders. We are removing these people. The five people she refers to were removed because of a statutory instrument that the Opposition clearly did not support, which relates to inadmissibility with the type of claims that come at sea. That has come through diligent work not only with our colleagues in the Home Office, but with our counterparts across EU member states.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
The Nationality and Borders Bill contains many similarities to what was used successfully by the Australians in its Operation Sovereign Borders policy in 2013. Can my right hon. Friend dismiss the comments in The Times last week that said:
“Ministers have not given details of how the offshore centres will work. But Britain cannot detain the migrants at the centres…as that would breach international law”?
As a sovereign country in control of our law making, nothing could be further from the truth.
Priti Patel
Our Parliament is sovereign, and that is why we will work assiduously to ensure that the Nationality and Borders Bill gets through and gets Royal Assent. Then we can absolutely deliver for the British people.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The figures this year have tripled to 25,000 people making crossings. On the current trajectory, that is projected to increase to 78,000 next year. Last week, the Home Secretary said that she had come to an agreement with French authorities to say that there would be a 100% reduction in crossings, yet the French authorities said they knew nothing about it. When she says that she is having negotiations that will effectively reduce the number of crossings, who exactly has she been talking to?
Priti Patel
First, I have been directly engaging with the French Government and the French Interior Minister. In regard to that comment about stopping crossings 100%, those were not my words but those of the French Interior Minister.
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
International people smugglers know that they only need to get the boats into British waters before their clients can claim asylum in the UK. Does the Home Secretary agree that we must therefore change legislation to allow for the option of offshore processing and return? What message does she think it sends when the Labour party calls for action in this place, but then whips its Members to vote against every part of the Bill that would make it happen?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend has seen the Labour party in action in the Bill Committee, where it is opposing the solutions that this Government are putting forward and our strong legislation to break the people smuggling gangs and ensure that we can find safe and legal routes for people fleeing persecution. It is also important to add on this point that when it comes to processing asylum claims, we must have a differentiated approach. Through this Bill, we want to end some of the pull factors for the economic migrants who have been masquerading as asylum seekers and elbowing to one side women and children—the very people to whom we should be giving asylum.
Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)
I agree with my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary when he says that the people coming across looking for refugee status or asylum status here will have their human rights downgraded if the Bill that the Home Secretary is pushing forward goes ahead. These are people whose human rights have already been abused in their place of origin. The Home Secretary has spoken in response to earlier questions about looking at safe routes. When those people obtain safe routes through the national agencies, will she allow them to settle here?
Priti Patel
The point about safe and legal routes is that they become the pathway to resettlement. The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the Syrian resettlement regime, which a predecessor of mine and former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), led when she was Home Secretary. It worked with the multilateral system and third-party agencies, which is the right and proper thing to do. They have the expertise in identifying people. Once they have identified people and we have identified the right resettlement pathways and where those people can resettle in the United Kingdom, we can then bring them to the UK. That is the right approach, because we have to look at how asylum seekers are being housed, and the pressures on housing and on local authorities, which we debated about an hour and a half ago, have to be taken into consideration. The resettlement routes must deliver for the individuals fleeing persecution, while showing that the United Kingdom and its Government are generous and welcoming and that resettlement does what it says on the tin.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
People across the country are rightly angry about the current situation and want action, so I welcome the steps that my right hon. Friend is taking and the legislation that is being brought forward. If we need new specific powers, she should bring them forward now to the House so that we can act with the speed that our constituents want, as we did with covid.
Priti Patel
The Nationality and Borders Bill is going through the House right now. As I have always said, we look at all options, and those options are in the Bill. Obviously, if other legislative measures are required, the Government will look at them and bring them forward.
Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that the narrative on immigration needs to change? As we have heard, 70% of asylum seekers are fleeing from persecution, greater numbers have been risking their lives to cross the channel in flimsy boats, and there has been net negative immigration with more people leaving the country than arriving. Does she agree that proportionately, the UK supports lower numbers than Germany, Spain, Greece and France?
Priti Patel
In the interests of time, I refer the hon. Lady to the new plan for immigration. On page 6, she will see that:
“The UK accepted more refugees through planned resettlement schemes than any other country in Europe in the period 2015-2019”.
That answers her question about the number of people who are coming here.
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
We have seen thousands of people coming into the country. Many areas, such as Stoke-on-Trent, which has already taken far more than its fair share, are continuing to see increased pressure. Will my right hon. Friend look at measures to reduce the numbers coming into the country and ensure that there is a much fairer share across the country?
Priti Patel
I thank my hon. Friend and all hon. Members from Stoke-on-Trent in particular who have been very clear and engaged with me and the Department on the whole issue of asylum accommodation. They have demonstrated, with their local council leader, who has been outstanding, the principles of fairness and value in how we engage with local authorities.
My hon. Friend knows my message on this issue: we need other local authorities across the United Kingdom to step up, we really do. I restate that the long-term plan—it will not happen overnight—is to move people out of the current accommodation that they are in. They are in that accommodation for various reasons linked to the pandemic and Public Health England guidance. The Government, across Government and with military support, will be building reception centres.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
At the beginning, the Home Secretary said that she would like to hear some concrete alternative proposals from the Opposition, so I will give her one. In written evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Donate4Refugees suggested that the most effective way to deter channel crossings would be to:
“Allow people to claim asylum at our frontier controls in France”
and complete the initial stage of their application there. If it was accepted, the Home Office could
“transfer them to the UK on regular transport”
to commence
“the ‘normal’ UK process of dispersal accommodation and asylum support”.
Has she given any consideration to that idea?
Priti Patel
It is fair to say that that proposal of using juxtaposed controls to effectively process asylum seekers is not something that the British Government or the French Government would entertain. That is why we have wide-scale end-to-end reform in the new plan for immigration.
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that unlike Opposition Members who would have completely open borders, Government Members will, with determination, sort out the problem of illegal immigration? Given that there are so many persecuted people in Calais, does she agree that perhaps we should ask the United Nations to investigate what is happening in that country?
Priti Patel
That is a telling comment. Of course, it would not be the United Nations in France; it is actually the role of the European Commission. Speaking to my counterparts across EU member states, they are somewhat exasperated right now about the lack of leadership on the issue, which is why member states are engaging with us directly. We are looking at a whole-of-route approach. I should say that we are also working with the National Crime Agency and with other countries upstream to look at how we can find some long-term solutions.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I think we should all remember why we have the 1951 UN refugee convention. It was established after the second world war as a result of millions of Jewish people being unable to seek refuge legally outside Germany and perishing as a consequence. The UNHCR, in spite of what the Home Secretary has said, has stated that it believes the Nationality and Borders Bill
“undermines established international refugee protection rules and practices.”
I am quoting from its website. I would like to ask the Home Secretary: what proportion of those crossing the channel do so because they have existing family members here?
Priti Patel
As I have already stated, and the French authorities say this too, the majority—70%—are economic migrants. They are single men coming to the United Kingdom, and many of them—
Priti Patel
If the hon. Lady would like to listen, rather than talk over me—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady would like to listen, many of them are also trying to deceive local authorities about their own ages, claiming that they are children, and the new plan for immigration will fundamentally address that.
Priti Patel
The hon. Lady can shake her head, and I know that the Opposition have voted against age verification. On the point about the UNHCR—[Interruption.] If she would like to listen, rather than just yelling back, on the point about the UNHCR, safe and legal routes and resettlement routes are absolutely in line with the international convention on refuge. We are working with it, and we are having discussions with it. Only two weeks ago, I met the International Committee of the Red Cross, and I have been touch with UNHCR about these issues, because it is important not only that we stand by the convention—
Priti Patel
The hon. Lady can shake her head, but it is also important that we deliver safe and legal routes in a fair way, so that those individuals who are fleeing persecution are given the support they seek.
Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary share my surprise that the Opposition have decided to bring this urgent question forward, because of course not only have they voted against the Nationality and Borders Bill, but they are also voting against the Judicial Review and Courts Bill, which in ending Cart judicial review will make it far easier to deport illegal immigrants?
Priti Patel
Well, I do not think I have much to add. My hon. Friend has absolutely made the case for voting for that Bill and for the reforms that we are bringing in, and the Labour party is behaving like a computer that says no all the time.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has this afternoon put the Nationality and Borders Bill at the very centre of her plans, but her Department’s own impact assessment cautioned that
“evidence supporting the effectiveness of this approach is limited”,
and it went on to say that some of its measures
“could encourage these cohorts to attempt riskier means of entering the UK.”
Will she not accept the evidence of her own Department, and abandon plans that seem more designed to provide headlines than a solution?
Priti Patel
Absolutely wrong. That is the wrong characterisation, quite frankly, of the Nationality and Borders Bill and of the new plan for immigration, which has a range of measures, including a one-stop appeal process, the ability for claims to be processed in a different way and heard offshore, and, importantly, the ability to ensure that individuals who are fleeing persecution are given the help and the support they need. I find it absolutely extraordinary that Member after Member on the Opposition Benches stands up and just says, on the one hand, “You’re not doing enough as a Government to stop illegal migration,” while on the other hand in effect saying, “What you are doing is not good enough, and we are voting against it.” I have made it quite clear from the onset not only that this problem will take time to fix—
Priti Patel
If the hon. Member would like to listen to my response, rather than yelling at me—he is not even speaking in a low voice, just yelling at me—there is no silver bullet, and the only solution is whole-scale reform. That whole-scale reform has to address pull factors, it has to ensure that we have safe and legal routes, it has to have a differentiated approach, it has to make sure that we can house people in the right kind of way and it has to ensure that we have the infrastructure in the United Kingdom to support people on resettlement pathways. Currently, our plan and the Bill will deliver that, whereas under the current broken system, which has not been reformed for 20 years, we are not able to deliver our asylum system in a fair way. The various pulls are actually bringing people to the country illegally, and we do need to stop that.
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
Given that so many Labour Members would prefer us to be in ever closer political union with countries such as France, Belgium and Germany, does my right hon. Friend share my surprise that they do not consider those countries to be mature democracies with functioning asylum systems for the purposes of this exercise? Does she agree that people should claim asylum in the first safe country, rather than take dangerous routes across the channel?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and there must be some honestly about what is happening with asylum seekers transiting through EU member states and coming to the United Kingdom. The whole of the EU is safe, and all those countries, including France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and other countries that are well known and have been referenced, have functioning asylum systems. We must break the pattern of asylum shopping, which is being provided by criminal gangs and people smugglers, and that is effectively what the Bill will do.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
May I give the Home Secretary another opportunity to put the record straight? Last month, before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, she claimed that 70% of those travelling to the UK across the channel were “not genuine asylum seekers.” However, analysis by Refugee Council, based on Home Office data, shows that two thirds of applicants have been granted asylum status and so are fleeing for their lives, many with contacts and family in the UK. Does she dispute her own Department’s data on that? Which is it?
Priti Patel
First, I stand by the claim, as do my colleagues in Europe—the French Minister of the Interior and I speak about this frequently—that 70% of those coming across France’s borders and across the channel to the United Kingdom are single men. I am not going to restate that position any more, and I refer the hon. Lady to comments I have made previously. I appreciate that she may wish to quote the Refugee Council, but quite frankly there is a fundamental point here: the current system is broken, this Government are trying to reform and change it, and the Labour party is trying to block that reform.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend on her recognition that the system, as it currently stands, does not reflect the humanitarian instinct of the British people. Regarding our ability to intervene against people smugglers in French territorial waters, what is her view of Frontex, the EU border and coastguard agency, which we might expect to play a similar role to that played by the UK Border Agency on this side of the English channel?
Priti Patel
That is a great question, and Frontex in particular has an important role to play. I have travelled across certain EU countries and seen Frontex in operation, but not in France, and not with our near neighbours and on our near borders. The Commission is under pressure right now as it has been asked by many member states to provide broader protection. That is out of our remit and a matter for the Commission, but it is vital that it steps up. The lack of border protection is having an ongoing, knock-on impact on people smugglers and on porous borders, and on people coming to the United Kingdom.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Home Secretary knows that the UK receives fewer asylum seekers—these are not people applying via the resettlement scheme—per head of population than the European average, yet after 11 years in power, she cannot process their applications in a timely manner, subjecting them to further physical and mental distress, or even control our borders, meaning that thousands are making that perilous crossing. Will she stop blaming the French, the European Union, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, the weather, the migrants themselves, and take some responsibility? Fix the broken system, because the Nationality and Borders Bill certainly will not do that.
Priti Patel
On the hon. Lady’s ultimate point, the Nationality and Borders Bill is an important piece of legislation to fix the broken asylum system. This is not just about the Conservative party being in power; when the Labour party was in power it did nothing to fix the asylum system. We are tackling this issue. I appreciate that Labour Members will not support the Bill, but at the same time they are supporting a broken system, and end-to-end reform of it is required. Yes, I want to fix the system—[Interruption.] The hon. Lady can shake her head and talk above me, but that is what we are trying to do through the Bill.
Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con)
In 2019 my constituents rejected Labour’s open door immigration policy. Since then we have been getting on with delivering our new Australian-style points- based immigration system in the teeth of opposition from the Labour party. Will the Home Secretary listen to my constituents in Consett, Crook and across North West Durham, rather than to the Labour party, and agree that we must now adopt an Australian approach to stopping the small boats in the channel? Offshore processing, turning them back—whatever it takes to secure our borders and stop the awful human traffickers.
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He speaks with passion and conviction on this issue for a very good reason, which of course is that the British public are sick to death of this. They are absolutely, heartily sick of what they are seeing, and that speaks to many of the abuses that take place in our asylum system and the fact that the system is broken. Yes, processing takes too long, and yes, we have had the pandemic; there is a range of reasons why this is the case, but we want to address it and fix it and tackle it long term. There are no simple solutions, which is why the legislation is so important.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
As it stands, the Nationality and Borders Bill will criminalise the work of the RNLI, as the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), acknowledged in Committee; it is an outrageous situation. I have tabled an amendment to prevent the RNLI from being prosecuted for its courageous humanitarian work. Will the Home Secretary meet RNLI staff and volunteers and adopt my amendment to protect these frontline life savers, who have sadly already been the target of abuse and attacks because of the Government’s irresponsible narrative and media headlines on this issue?
Priti Patel
We have been very clear that we will table an amendment on Report on the specific point that the hon. Gentleman has made. What I would also say about the Bill—[Interruption.]—if he lets me finish. Of course, the importance of the Bill is that it will not just bring about long-term reform but make life harder for the criminal gangs behind these crossings. That is something that should unite us all, and we absolutely want to make sure that happens.
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
Let me start with a quote:
“When a person leaves their country through fear, we consider that, as a general principle, such a person should seek protection in the first safe country where they have the chance to do so.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 5 April 2004; Vol. 459, c. 1684.]
I agree with that quote, and the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke agree with that quote. It is a quote of the Labour Minister, Baroness Scotland, in 2004—when Labour used to win elections. Does my right hon. Friend agree with that quote, and will she tell that lot over there to vote for the Nationality and Borders Bill?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. No one can dispute the fact that those who are seeking to claim asylum should do so in the first safe country. That is a long-standing principle, and it is one that we stand by.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
Clearly, this country was far more successful in dealing with illegal immigration as a member of the European Union than it is now, with five people removed compared with 263 before we left. In her answer to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the Home Secretary was not very clear about the successor agreement to the Dublin regulation, so will she clarify who would be responsible for negotiating any such agreement? Is it the EU Commission or individual member states?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con)
My right hon. Friend may recall that the Leader of the Opposition once infamously said that all immigration controls are racist. Does she agree that all immigration controls are racist, or does she agree with me that that demonstrates not only that the Opposition cannot be trusted on small boats but that a Labour Government means open borders?
Priti Patel
I thank my hon. Friend. First, I think Labour Members have made their position clear, not just on legal migration but on illegal migration, with their resistance to everything we have done on a points-based system, ending free movement and, obviously, our plans now to reform a broken asylum system and tackle illegal migration. The Bill is an important piece of legislation. We want to make it harder for the criminal gangs behind these crossings; we want to make the UK less attractive and viable for illegal migration, which really is crucial; and importantly—this is something that the Labour party has not been supportive of either—we want to remove those individuals with no legal right to be here, and we will do that through our legislation.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
In response to the British Government’s policy, the Albanian Government have said that Albania
“will never be a hub of anti-immigration policies of bigger and richer countries.”
Which other territories are the British Government considering for their immoral offshore migrant centres?
Priti Patel
I am not going to provide any commentary at all in terms of other countries that we are negotiating with. It is for the Government to go away and do this work, which we are doing, and not to start speculating and creating false expectations around much of this work.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Crossing the English channel in an overcrowded flimsy boat has been described as the equivalent of a pedestrian trying to cross both carriageways of the M25 in rush hour. In terms of humanitarian safety alone, the Home Secretary asked for constructive suggestions. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man for us to have joint naval patrols with the French, so that if migrants are intercepted at sea they are landed not at Dover, but back in France?
Priti Patel
Without going into operational details, we discuss all options. We absolutely do discuss all options. Whether it is naval patrols or alternative patrols, we are constantly exploring and discussing options. It is not appropriate for me to comment on the responsibilities of other Government Departments, but work is taking place with our counterparts and other Departments in Government.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for her responses to very difficult questioning. Will she outline what discussions have taken place with her counterparts in France regarding the prevention of small boat crossings, which have trebled in the past year? Has she impressed on the French that their responsibility is not simply a diplomatic one, but a moral responsibility and a safety issue, and that their abdication of that responsibility can and will result in injury and death?
Priti Patel
Absolutely right. The answer is of course yes. Pressing the moral and humanitarian case, and breaking up the criminal networks, is exactly what this is all about. The gangs and networks have not flourished overnight. They are long-established, which is why we have to look at it from that perspective. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am doing that constantly.
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
In answers to questions, the Home Secretary has talked a number of times about age verification and people trying to cheat the system by coming in as if they are children. How would age verification work? How many other countries use it as a tool, whether in Europe or elsewhere in the world, to ensure that those who come are genuinely who they say they are?
Priti Patel
This is an important question. My hon. Friend raises important points around the age verification of illegal migrants who pose as children. That poses wider security and safeguarding concerns. We have seen in previous years, I am very disappointed to say, grown adult men in schools, which poses wider safeguarding issues. My hon. Friend asks about other countries and the type of techniques they use. The techniques we are proposing in the Nationality and Borders Bill are used in many EU member states.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
I have to say that a lot of the language used today in relation to those fleeing war and persecution—dehumanising them and demonising them—is deeply, deeply troubling. There are about 80 million people around the world who are either refugees or internally displaced. The UK is being asked to help only a small fraction. Will the Home Secretary recognise that under the 1951 refugee convention, people do not have to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach?
Priti Patel
I disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s overall tone. This is a lively debate for a range of reasons, and there are very serious and important issues at stake. The Government are very clear on moral obligations, humanitarian commitments, standing by the refugee convention, international treaties, and working with the right multilateral agencies to provide help and support to those fleeing persecution. We stand by that. I have said many, many times over the course of the last couple of hours that that is work we are doing and will continue to do. There are 80 million people around the world who are displaced or fleeing their own countries for a wide range of reasons, but there is an important point to make. The United Kingdom cannot accommodate everyone, which is why the international community also needs to do much more in terms of safe and legal routes—we are working internationally on that—and why we are bringing in long-term reforms.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank the Home Secretary for responding to questions for almost an hour and 10 minutes.
Points of Order
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wonder if you could advise me on how I can put on record my dismay, and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), at the leaking of private Select Committee discussions ahead of our recent joint report on coronavirus lessons learnt. The report was ultimately agreed unanimously by Members of three parties on two Committees. I want to put on record my view that the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) does an outstanding job as a Select Committee member, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells has the same view of the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler).
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank Mr Hunt for forward notice of his point of order. He asks how he can put it on the record—well, he has just done that, so congratulations on that. It is important that private discussions in Committees remain private. I am happy to join him in paying tribute to the hon. Members for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) and for Luton North (Sarah Owen), who I am absolutely certain work hard on behalf of their Select Committees. Anybody who sits on a Select Committee must know that it is a privilege to do so, and that there should be no leaking whatever.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Twelve of my constituents have contacted me because they have been waiting for driving licences from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency for months, and they cannot get through. They have tried to call it, and there is no answer; I have tried to call it, and I cannot get through; I have contacted the MP hotline, and I am still waiting for a response. One constituent had a brain tumour and has been applying for his medical renewal licence since May. Please could you advise me on which parliamentary mechanisms are available to me? This is not good enough for my constituents.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I thank the hon. Lady for advance notice of her point of order. It is not for the Chair to comment on the DVLA, but I can say that I am aware from other Members of Parliament that responses are simply not coming forward from it. I am concerned to hear that right hon. and hon. Members are not receiving responses, especially if the service is described as a hotline. The hon. Lady’s point will have been heard by Members on the Government Benches; I hope that speedy action is taken. She might wish to discuss the matter with Clerks in the Table Office, who will be able to advise her on ways to pursue the matter.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. With respect to the DVLA, you may be aware that a deal with the unions was on the table to ensure greater productivity and safety, but it was ripped off the table by the Secretary of State for Transport. Had it not been, we might be getting better responses to the public. May I, through you, Mr Deputy Speaker, urge the Government to get on with getting both sides together, so that we can get a proper service, rather than punishing the workers and putting them at risk?
Mr Deputy Speaker
That was a point of information rather than a point of order, but I am sure that it was heard by Members on the Treasury Bench. Proceedings Timefor conclusion of proceedings New Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to tobacco or nicotine products, and new Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to food or drink or its impact on health 7 pm on the first day New Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to integrated care boards, integrated care partnerships or integrated care systems, and new Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to the cap on care costs 10 pm on the first day New Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to the workforce in the health service or related sectors, new Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to cosmetic procedures, virginity testing or hymenoplasty, and new Clauses, new Schedules and amendments relating to the Health Services Safety Investigations Body 4.30 pm on the second day Remaining proceedings on Consideration 6 pm on the second day
Health and Care Bill (Programme) (No.2)
Ordered,
That the Order of 14 July 2021 (Health and Care Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows:
(1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted.
(2) Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.
(3) Proceedings on Consideration—
(a) shall be taken on each of those days in the order shown in the first column of the following Table, and
(b) shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.
(4) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 7 pm on the second day.—(Edward Argar.)
Health and Care Bill
Monday 22nd November 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Health and Care Act 2022 View all Health and Care Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 22 November 2021 - (22 Nov 2021)
18:57 - The House divided: - Ayes: 230 / Noes: 297 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:11 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 194 / Noes: 298 - Question accordingly negatived.
21:58 - The House divided: - Ayes: 272 / Noes: 246 - Question accordingly agreed to.
22:16 - The House divided: - Ayes: 195 / Noes: 302 - Question accordingly negatived.
22:29 - The House divided: - Ayes: 192 / Noes: 300 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 3—Cigarette pack inserts—
“The Secretary of State may by regulations require tobacco manufacturers to display a health information message on a leaflet inserted in cigarette packaging.”
This new clause would give powers to the Secretary of State to require manufacturers to insert leaflets containing health information and information about smoking cessation services inside cigarette packaging.
New clause 4—Packaging and labelling of nicotine products—
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the retail packaging and labelling of electronic cigarettes and other novel nicotine products including requirements for health warnings and prohibition of branding elements attractive to children.”
This new clause would give powers to the Secretary of State to prohibit branding on e-cigarette packaging which is appealing to children.
New clause 5—Sale and distribution of nicotine products to children under the age of 18 years—
“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations prohibit the free distribution of nicotine products to those aged under 18 years, and prohibit the sale of all nicotine products to those under 18.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1) must include an exception for medicines or medical devices indicated for the treatment of persons aged under 18.”
This new clause would give powers to the Secretary of State to prohibit the free distribution or sale of any consumer nicotine product to anyone under 18, while allowing the sale or distribution of nicotine replacement therapy licensed for use by under 18s.
New clause 6—Flavoured tobacco products—
“The Secretary of State may by regulations remove the limitation of the prohibition of flavours in cigarettes or tobacco products to ‘characterising’ flavours, and extend the flavour prohibition to all tobacco products as well as smoking accessories including filter papers, filters and other products designed to flavour tobacco products.”
This new clause would give powers to the Secretary of State to prohibit any flavouring in any tobacco product or smoking accessory.
New clause 8—Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes (supplementary)—
“(1) The Secretary of State may make any provision the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient for the purpose of enabling or facilitating—
(a) the introduction of a statutory scheme under section [Tobacco supplies: Statutory schemes], or
(b) the determination of the provision to be made in a proposed statutory scheme.
(2) The provision may, in particular, require any person to whom such a scheme may apply to—
(a) record and keep information,
(b) provide information to the Secretary of State in electronic form.
(3) The Secretary of State must—
(a) store electronically the information which is submitted in accordance with subsection (2);
(b) ensure that information submitted in accordance with this provision is made publicly available on a website, taking the need to protect trade secrets duly into account.
(4) Where the Secretary of State is preparing to make or vary a statutory scheme, the Secretary of State may make any provision the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient for transitional or transitory purposes which could be made by such a scheme.”
This new clause and NC7, NC9 and NC10 would enable the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to regulate prices and profits of tobacco manufacturers and importers.
New clause 9—Tobacco supplies: enforcement—
“(1) Regulations may provide for a person who contravenes any provision of regulations or directions under section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] to be liable to pay a penalty to the Secretary of State.
(2) The penalty may be—
(a) a single penalty not exceeding £5 million,
(b) a daily penalty not exceeding £500,000 for every day on which the contravention occurs or continues.
(3) Regulations may provide for any amount required to be paid to the Secretary of State by virtue of section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] (4) or (6)(b) to be increased by an amount not exceeding 50 per cent.
(4) Regulations may provide for any amount payable to the Secretary of State by virtue of provision made under section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] (3), (4), (5) or (6)(b) (including such an amount as increased under subsection (3)) to carry interest at a rate specified or referred to in the regulations.
(5) Provision may be made by regulations for conferring on manufacturers and importers a right of appeal against enforcement decisions taken in respect of them in pursuance of [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes], [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes (supplementary)] and this section.
(6) The provision which may be made by virtue of subsection (5) includes any provision which may be made by model provisions with respect to appeals under section 6 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (c. 40), reading—
(a) the references in subsections (4) and (5) of that section to enforcement action as references to action taken to implement an enforcement decision,
(b) in subsection (5) of that section, the references to interested persons as references to any persons and the reference to any decision to take enforcement action as a reference to any enforcement decision.
(7) In subsections (5) and (6), ‘enforcement decision’ means a decision of the Secretary of State or any other person to—
(a) require a specific manufacturer or importer to provide information to him,
(b) limit, in respect of any specific manufacturer or importer, any price or profit,
(c) refuse to give approval to a price increase made by a specific manufacturer or importer,
(d) require a specific manufacturer or importer to pay any amount (including an amount by way of penalty) to the Secretary of State,
and in this subsection ‘specific’ means specified in the decision.
(8) A requirement or prohibition, or a limit, under section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes], may only be enforced under this section and may not be relied on in any proceedings other than proceedings under this section.
(9) Subsection (8) does not apply to any action by the Secretary of State to recover as a debt any amount required to be paid to the Secretary of State under section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] or this section.
(10) The Secretary of State may by order increase (or further increase) either of the sums mentioned in subsection (2).”
This new clause and NC7, NC8 and NC10 would enable the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to regulate prices and profits of tobacco manufacturers and importers.
New clause 10—Tobacco supplies: controls: (supplementary)—
“(1) Any power conferred on the Secretary of State by section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] and [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes (supplementary)] may be exercised by—
(a) making regulations, or
(b) giving directions to a specific manufacturer or importer.
(2) Regulations under subsection (1)(a) may confer power for the Secretary of State to give directions to a specific manufacturer or importer; and in this subsection ‘specific’ means specified in the direction concerned.
(3) In this section and section [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes] and [Tobacco supplies: statutory schemes (supplementary)] and [Tobacco supplies: enforcement]—
‘tobacco product’ means a product that can be consumed and consists, even partly, of tobacco;
‘manufacturer’ means any person who manufactures tobacco products;
‘importer’ means any person who imports tobacco products into the UK with a view to the product being supplied for consumption in the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector, and contravention of a provision includes a failure to comply with it.”
This new clause and NC7, NC8 and NC9 would enable the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to regulate prices and profits of tobacco manufacturers and importers.
New clause 11—Age of sale of tobacco—
“The Secretary of State must consult on raising the age of sale for tobacco from 18 to 21 within three months of the passage of this Act.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to consult on raising the age of sale for tobacco products to 21.
New clause 14—Implementation of Restrictions on advertising of less healthy food and drink online—
“The regulator shall put in place a mechanism for the delivery of the requirements under Part 2 of Schedule 16 which shall require that advertisers—
(a) apply media targeting filters, based on robust audience measurement data, to ensure the avoidance of children’s media or editorial content of particular appeal to children;
(b) use audience targeting tools and, where available, proprietary audience or other first-party data to further exclude children; and
(c) use campaign evaluation tools to assess audience impacts and use any learning to continually improve future targeting approaches.”
This new clause would require the regulator to put in place a three-step “filtering” process for restricting online advertising by managing the targeting of an online advertising campaign for foods that are high in fat, salt or sugar, as developed by the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority.
New clause 15—Alcohol product labelling—
“The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision to ensure alcoholic drinks, as defined by the Department for Health and Social Care’s Low Alcohol Descriptors Guidance, published in 2018, or in future versions of that guidance, display—
(a) the Chief Medical Officers’ low risk drinking guidelines,
(b) a warning that is intended to inform the public of the danger of alcohol consumption,
(c) a warning that is intended to inform the public of the danger of alcohol consumption when pregnant,
(d) a warning that is intended to inform the public of the direct link between alcohol and cancer, and
(e) a full list of ingredients and nutritional information.”
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to introduce secondary legislation on alcohol product labelling.
New clause 16—Annual report on alcohol treatment services: assessment of outcomes—
“(1) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament at the start of each financial year a report on—
(a) the ways in which alcohol treatment providers have been supported in tackling excess mortality, alcohol related hospital admissions, and the burden of disease resulting from alcohol consumption, and
(b) the number of people identified as requiring support who are receiving treatment.
(2) Alongside the publication of the report, the Secretary of State must publish an assessment of the impact of the level of funding for alcohol treatment providers on their ability to deliver a high-quality service that enables patient choice.”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to make an annual statement on how the funding received by alcohol treatment providers has supported their work to improve treatment and reduce harm.
New clause 17—Minimum unit price for alcohol—
“(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision to ensure alcoholic drinks, as defined by the Department for Health and Social Care’s Low Alcohol Descriptors Guidance published in 2018, or in later versions of that document, are liable to a minimum unit price.
(2) The regulations must provide for the minimum unit price to be calculated by applying the formula M x S x V, where—
(a) M is the minimum unit price, expressed in pounds sterling,
(b) S is the percentage strength of the alcohol, expressed as a cardinal number, and
(c) V is the volume of the alcohol, expressed in litres.”
This new clause requires the Secretary of State to introduce secondary legislation that applies a minimum unit price to alcohol.
Amendment 14, in clause 138, page 118, line 5, after “drink)”, insert
“and section [Minimum unit price for alcohol]”.
This amendment would bring NC17 into force at the same time as section 129 and Schedule 16 (advertising of less healthy food and drink).
Amendment 3, in schedule 16, page 222, line 8, at end insert—
“(3) A brand may continue to advertise, or provide sponsorship, if the advertisement or sponsorship does not include an identifiable less healthy food and drink product.”.
This amendment makes an explicit exemption from the advertising restrictions on television programme services between 5.30 am and 9.00 pm for brand advertising and sponsorship, where there is no identifiable less healthy food and drink product.
Government amendments 31 and 32.
Amendment 11, in schedule 16, page 222, line 26, at end insert—
“(da) a drink product is ‘less healthy’ if it is an alcoholic product in accordance with the Department for Health and Social Care’s Low Alcohol Descriptors Guidance, published in 2018, or future versions of that guidance;”.
This amendment ensures that alcohol is considered a “less healthy” product and therefore liable to the watershed proposed for TV programme services.
Amendment 111, in schedule 16, page 222, line 28, leave out from “meaning” to end of line 30 and insert
“given in Section 465 of the Companies Act 2006 (Companies qualifying as medium-sized: general)”.
This amendment, and Amendments 112 and 113, aims to define companies to whom the advertising restrictions imposed by this schedule would apply as medium-sized companies within the meaning given by section 465 of the Companies Act 2006.
Government amendment 33.
Amendment 6, in schedule 16, page 222, line 38, after “unless”, insert
“a public consultation has been carried out on the proposed change to the relevant guidance, and”.
This amendment requires a public consultation to take place before any change can be made to the Nutrient Profiling Technical Guidance under which a food or drink product may be identified as “less healthy” and its advertising restricted on television programme services between 5.30 am and 9.00 pm.
Amendment 4, in schedule 16, page 223, line 4, at end insert—
“(3) A brand may continue to advertise, and provide sponsorship as a brand, if the advertisement or sponsorship does not include an identifiable less healthy food and drink product.”.
This amendment makes explicit exemptions from the advertising restrictions on on-demand programme services for brand advertising and sponsorship, where there is no identifiable less healthy food and drink product.
Government amendments 34 and 35.
Amendment 12, in schedule 16, page 223, line 24, at end insert—
“(da) a drink product is “less healthy” if it is an alcoholic product in accordance with the Department for Health and Social Care’s Low Alcohol Descriptors Guidance, published in 2018, or future versions of that guidance;”.
This amendment ensures that alcohol is considered a “less healthy” product and therefore liable to the watershed proposed for TV programme services.
Amendment 112, in schedule 16, page 223, line 26, leave out from “meaning” to end of line 27 and insert
“given in Section 465 of the Companies Act 2006 (Companies qualifying as medium-sized: general)”.
See explanatory statement to Amendment 111.
Government amendment 36.
Amendment 7, in schedule 16, page 223, line 36, after “unless”, insert
“a public consultation has been carried out on the proposed change to the relevant guidance, and”.
This amendment requires a public consultation to take place before any change can be made to the Nutrient Profiling Technical Guidance under which a food or drink product may be identified as “less healthy” and its advertising restricted on on-demand programme services.
Amendment 106, in schedule 16, page 224, line 8, leave out “must not pay for” and insert
“must not market, sell or arrange”.
This series of connected probing amendments is intended to create parity in treatment of television and online advertising. The platform carrying the advertising, rather than those paying for advertising, would be responsible for the placing of advertisements. The wording to denote a platform mirrors that used by Ofcom in its recent regulation of Video Sharing Platforms consultation.
Amendment 110, in schedule 16, page 224, line 16, at end insert—
“(aa) in relation to advertisements placed on distributor or retailer websites which are associated with the sale of food or drink”.
This amendment aims to ensure paid-for branded HFSS product advertisements are treated as equivalent to HFSS own-brand products on retailer-owned spaces.
Government amendment 37.
Amendment 5, in schedule 16, page 224, line 26, at end insert—
“(4) A brand may continue to advertise, and provide sponsorship as a brand, if the advertisement does not include an identifiable less healthy food and drink product.”.
This amendment makes an explicit exemption from the restrictions on online advertising for brand advertising and sponsorship, where there is no identifiable less healthy food and drink product.
Government amendment 38.
Amendment 13, in schedule 16, page 225, line 10, at end insert—
“(fa) a drink product is “less healthy” if it is an alcoholic product in accordance with the Department for Health and Social Care’s Low Alcohol Descriptors Guidance, published in 2018, or future versions of that guidance;”.
This amendment ensures that alcohol is considered a “less healthy” product and therefore liable to the online ban.
Amendment 113, in schedule 16, page 225, line 12, leave out from “meaning” to end of line 14 and insert
“given in Section 465 of the Companies Act 2006 (Companies qualifying as medium-sized: general)”.
See explanatory statement to Amendment 111.
Government amendment 39.
Amendment 8, in schedule 16, page 225, line 24, after “unless”, insert
“a public consultation has been carried out on the proposed change to the relevant guidance, and”.
This amendment requires a public consultation to take place before any change can be made to the Nutrient Profiling Technical Guidance under which a food or drink product may be identified as “less healthy” and its advertising restricted online.
Amendment 107, in schedule 16, page 225, line 28, leave out “made a payment for” and insert “marketed, sold or arranged”.
See explanatory statement for Amendment 106.
Amendment 108, in schedule 16, page 225, line 30, leave out “made” and insert “received”.
See explanatory statement for Amendment 106.
Amendment 109, in schedule 16, page 227, line 3, leave out from “with” to end of line 4 and insert
“the person marketing, selling or arranging advertisements published on the internet”.
See explanatory statement for Amendment 106.
Mary Kelly Foy
Before I address the amendments tabled in my name, I want to briefly voice my support for amendments 11 to 13 and new clauses 15 to 17, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden), which call for improved regulation of alcohol marketing and labelling, for minimum unit pricing in England and for better assessment of treatment outcomes. Sadly, my hon. Friend cannot be here today, as he is with his family and his father Mike, who is receiving palliative care after many months of treatment for lung cancer. I know how important these issues are to my hon. Friend; I express my love and solidarity, and that of the whole House, at this difficult time for him and his loved ones.
Smoking is one of the biggest causes of ill health. It has a devastating impact on our population: it killed approximately the same number of people in 2019 as covid 19 in 2020, and one in every two smokers will die from smoking-related illnesses. The Government and the Opposition both support a smoke-free 2030, but without meaningful action, that ambition will be missed by seven years—or by double that number of years, in the case of the poorest in society.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that Professor Marmot’s work on social and health inequalities shows that 0.5% of GDP should be spent on health inequalities such as those she describes?
Mary Kelly Foy
I could not agree more. Michael Marmot is one of the most important health inequalities experts around.
To make matters worse, smoking rates among young adults have surged to 25% above pre-lockdown rates. However, despite the damage that missing the 2030 target would cause, there is nothing in the Bill that would help to achieve the Government’s ambition to make smoking obsolete. That is why the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health, of which I am the vice-chair, is fighting to get the 2030 ambition back on track. I was delighted to hear the Minister say in Committee that the Government would review the APPG’s proposals as they developed their own tobacco control plan, but that plan, which was due this year and expected in July, is now likely to be delayed beyond the end of the year. If the Government are serious about creating a smoke-free England by 2030, they will implement the APPG’s recommendations as soon as possible, and the Bill provides the ideal opportunity for them to do so.
Let me quickly summarise new clause 2. It gives the Secretary of State powers to add health warnings to cigarettes and cigarette papers. The Government are reviewing the proposal, but have said that more research is needed. Health warnings such as “Smoking Kills” have been shown to be effective on billboards and tobacco packs, so why on earth would they not be effective on individual cigarettes? At least eight peer-reviewed papers have been published in the last five years showing that the measures are effective. Similarly, new clause 3 would give the Secretary of State powers to require health information messages to be inserted in cigarette packs. That has been a legal requirement in Canada since 2000, and there is substantial evidence to show that it works there. Research carried out in the UK supports its use here as well.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
The hon. Lady will, of course, understand that one of our key aims must be to stop younger generations taking up smoking in the first place. Does she believe that her proposals—which I fully support—will help to achieve that key strategic aim?
Mary Kelly Foy
Most of my new clauses are indeed intended to prevent young people from starting to smoke in the first place.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
The hon. Lady has said that these measures apply to England, but they will of course have an effect throughout the United Kingdom—and rightly so—contributing to our aim to bring about a smoke-free Wales as well.
Mary Kelly Foy
Again, I could not agree more.
In Committee, the Minister said that the Department could already legislate under the Children and Families Act 2014 to require the insertion of such information messages. In that case, why do the Government not commit themselves to doing so now?
New clauses 4 to 6 address loopholes in current legislation. Now that those loopholes have been identified to the Government, they should be fixed without delay, and today we have the opportunity to do so. New clause 4 would give the Secretary of State powers to remove child-friendly branding elements from nicotine products. There are e-liquids on the market that are given sweet names, such as “gummy bears”, and that have branding that is in garish colours and features cartoon characters. Surely more evidence is not necessary to prove that such branding risks attracting children.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
Is this not one of the most important of the hon. Lady’s new clauses? As people age and die—events often driven by cigarettes—or perhaps manage to give up, the tobacco companies must recruit the young, with the indefensible aim of persuading them to start smoking.
Mary Kelly Foy
I entirely agree. Tobacco is the only legal product that kills one in two of those who use it, and most people start smoking at a young age. These new clauses are therefore extremely important, because they would tackle that problem.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The figures back up what the hon. Lady says. Two thirds of smokers in the UK start smoking under the age of 18, and over a third—39%—start under the age of 16. What she proposes will address that issue in a substantial way. We need legislation in place, and there needs to be punishment as well; that is the only way forward.
Mary Kelly Foy
I thank the hon. Gentleman, and I will address that issue.
New clause 5 would close another loophole in the law, which allows the free distribution of e-cigarettes and other consumer nicotine products to children under 18. The Government rejected the proposal, saying that there was no evidence of a serious problem, but the Minister sympathised with the argument for preventive action. Prevention is precisely our intention. Fixing this loophole is an appropriate application of the precautionary principle.
New clause 6 would remove the limitations on the ban on flavourings in tobacco products. That ban currently applies only to characterising flavours. The new clause would extend the flavour ban to all tobacco products, as well as to smoking accessories, including filter papers, filters and other products designed to favour tobacco products. In Committee, the Minister claimed it was unclear how a ban could be enforced in practice, as it would include a ban on flavours that did not give a noticeable flavour to the product. I suggest that he seek advice from Canada on this point, where a complete ban on flavours is already in place and has been highly effective.
The new clauses on the tobacco levy would give powers to the Secretary of State to implement a “polluter pays” levy on tobacco manufacturers. The Minister dismissed this in Committee as a matter of taxation for the Treasury to consider. However, we are not proposing additional taxation. Our new clauses are modelled on the American user fee and on the pharmaceutical pricing scheme in the UK.
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that prevention is much better than cure, because so many adult smokers have a terrible experience when trying to give up, and it comes at a huge cost to their health?
Mary Kelly Foy
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. A theme throughout these new clauses is that most people start smoking when they are children or when they are young, and most of them say that they wish they had never started. The new clauses would tackle young people’s access to tobacco-related products.
Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab)
It is often vulnerable children, and often those in care, who start smoking early, so does my hon. Friend agree that it is incredible that the Government have so far said that they will not support these new clauses?
Mary Kelly Foy
Yes, it is absolutely incredible. We have heard that a tobacco plan might be on its way, but every day that goes by without our putting these recommendations in place is another day on which someone dies of tobacco harm, and on which more young people become addicted to nicotine products.
Discussions with the Treasury on the “polluter pays” levy would not be necessary. The Food and Drug Administration administers the user fee in the United States, and the Department of Health and Social Care could and should administer such a scheme here.
New clause 11 has been revised in the light of the Government’s response to our proposal in the Committee, in which they cited the need to
“review the evidence base of increasing the age of sale to 21 in more detail”.––[Official Report, Health and Care Public Bill Committee, 28 October 2021; c. 816.]
They also stated the need for a public consultation. I agree that a consultation is the appropriate next step, so the new clause has been revised to require the Government to consult on raising the age of sale for tobacco from 18 to 21 within three months of the passage of this legislation.
To sum up, my new clauses address loopholes in the law. They would take incremental and obvious next steps to strengthen tobacco regulation still further, and they would provide the funding that is desperately needed to deliver the Government’s smoke-free 2030 ambition—funding that the spending review failed to deliver. When I was chair of the Gateshead tobacco control alliance, I saw the damage that smoking can do. It shortens life expectancy, increases the pressure on our health services, drives down productivity and drains wealth from our poorest communities—and for one in every two smokers, it will kill them. Eventually, the Government will have to accept that the measures proposed are necessary. The only question is how long they will wait, and how many lives will be ruined by tobacco in the meantime. I urge the Government to accept these new clauses in full.
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
I rise to speak in this debate to outline the case behind amendments 106 to 109 in my name, and to speak in favour of those in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Carlisle (John Stevenson) and for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller). I am also grateful from the outset for the time that my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Health and Social Care and for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport have afforded me in recent weeks to discuss these matters.
First and foremost, I want to set out that in principle I am opposed to the expansion of the nanny state. I did not get into politics to tell people what they should or should not eat, or businesses how they should go about advertising their products and wares. However, I equally do not doubt for one moment that obesity is a serious health concern for this country. It is a question of the detail and the manner in which we go about tackling it as a country—principally, that we go about it through education and ensuring people are able to make choices for themselves, rather than using blunt tools that I fear will not work. As I highlighted in a Backbench Business debate on the obesity strategy some months ago, the Government’s own research shows that the measures in the Bill will reduce calorie intake among children by only 1.74 calories a day. If that is the outcome, we must seriously question the measures before us.
The amendments in my name, however, seek to rectify an unfairness that will exist if the Government push ahead with these advertising restrictions, which have businesses in my constituency very concerned. For example, farmers such as Morris of Hoggeston, who grow oats, are concerned that within the categories under the HFSS, or high in fat, sugar or salt, measures, products such as porridge and granola, which are hardly the choice of most children—certainly not my children—are in scope. We need to do something to sort that out. Great British broadcasters, both public service and fully commercial, also stand to lose some £200 million a year from the restrictions we have before us.
My amendments are about fundamental fairness, and seek to treat broadcasters the same way as online platforms. In the first place, research shows that children, who these measures are most prominently aimed at, do not watch broadcast television as much as they used to. They look more and more to YouTube, on-demand services and online; I can testify to that from my own home, where my five-year-old much prefers YouTube to watching CBeebies or other children’s television programmes, and I think that is the same for most children. [Interruption.] I am not sure what is causing amusement on the Opposition Benches.
In fact, 95% of viewing of broadcast television before the 9 pm watershed is by adults, not children, and there are already regulations in place during scheduled children’s programming. So I fear the measures in this Bill will not work, and the fundamental unfairness that I spoke of earlier is the manner in which broadcasters will be treated compared with the online platforms.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said. Given that there is this disparity between the online advertiser and the broadcaster advertiser, and if we are seeking to restrict broadcasting advertisement to children so that they do not become unhealthy, would not the logic follow that we should equally restrict the online advertiser, rather than saying, “Let’s allow more of a free for all because this is more difficult to do for the online”?
Greg Smith
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. If he will let me make a little more progress, I think he will find that my amendments seek to put a harsher perspective of this on the online platforms, rather than letting anyone off anything whatsoever. I repeat that my fundamental position is one of opposition to the nanny state and restrictions, but recognising that if the Government are going to push these restrictions forward, we have to have fairness and parity across broadcast and online sectors, otherwise there will be loopholes, things will fall through the cracks and the Government will not achieve their objectives.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I certainly support the argument that my hon. Friend is putting forward. Does he feel that the Government have found themselves in a position where they feel they need to react because of the genuine obesity crisis among young people and this would seem to be the highest-profile publicity effort, but that really we should be focusing on the evidence of the case and the argument, so that we can actually have an impact on it, rather than steal the headline that might just last a couple of days?
Greg Smith
My right hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head: if we are to tackle obesity as a country, we have to look at the most successful outcomes. Fundamentally, I believe those to be ones of education, ensuring that parents are empowered to be able to make the best decisions for their children and ensuring that people are empowered to come to the right choices for themselves. The point about these amendments is to ensure that we are not giving a green light to one side while harshly penalising another for hosting these adverts.
The nub of the point is that the broadcasters will, in effect, have to pre-clear any advertising that is put on to their platform and there will be very harsh penalties, leading right up to the point of revocation of their broadcast licence, if they fail to do this. By contrast, although the Bill puts significant restrictions on the online platforms, they are not put through that same test. They are not put through the same harsh restrictions and requirements that are broadcasters are. This is especially important when we consider recent evidence that has been put into the public domain. The Advertising Standards Authority recently drew considerable attention to the mass flouting of the rules by online influencers across many sectors. This House’s Select Committee on Work and Pensions made an important point about online regulation in a report in March this year on protecting pension savers. It said:
“Regulators appear powerless to hold online firms to account”—
for online advertisements—
“in the same way they would be able to for traditional media.”
We need to bear that in mind as we consider this Bill, because if current regulations do not work in that field, I fear that the regulations on online providers proposed in this Bill will not either.
I offer these amendments as a call to those on the Treasury Bench, including the Minister for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar)—an excellent Minister who will consider these points carefully—to rethink the practicalities of what we are saying to the broadcast and online sectors. If the Government are intent on pushing this forward, I ask them to find that parity that ensures that broadcasters are not unfairly penalised. Great British broadcasters—ITV, Channel 4, Channel Five, Sky—already produce some incredible educational programming about diet, cooking, wellbeing and lifestyle. It would be horrendous for us to cut off their lifeline of funding.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I have put my name to my hon. Friend’s amendments because I agree with the points that he makes.
It is surely vital that those responsible broadcasters should not be penalised when they are doing the right thing—and yet there is effectively a wild west on the internet, where we are simply not able to manage the issue. I recognise that the Minister will be concerned that the online harms Bill will also deal with some of these matters, but we need to find a cross-Government way of dealing with this.
Greg Smith
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right and speaks with great experience from her time as Secretary of State at DCMS. That is the fundamental point of the amendments; it is not a complex or difficult case, but purely one of fairness and treating the different platforms—the diverse media of 2021—the same, rather than pretending that the media from the old analogue age can somehow be treated differently from those of the digital age.
Let us not cut off the lifeline that funds so many good educational programmes. Let us think again about restrictions on advertisers, move forward in a way that can enable people to make the right and healthy choices about what they and their children eat without this level of restriction, and ensure that, when restriction is brought in, it is fair.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to speak for the Opposition in this first part of the debate on the Bill.
A decade ago, virtually to the day, I was a young activist taking part in marches, protests, online campaigns, letter writing campaigns, petitions and much more in opposition to what would become the Health and Social Care Act 2012. We argued that it would lead to more fragmentation, less integration, confused decision making and more privatisation and that it would not make anybody any healthier.
Despite significant opposition to the legislation, the Government pushed on. But as campaigners, we were right, weren’t we? The 2012 Act created a fragmented system that did not promote health and care integration. Performance against NHS targets, even pre-pandemic, was dismal and now it is even worse. Waiting lists have grown extraordinarily, and staff vacancies have grown to crisis proportions.
We are here today and tomorrow to consign that legislation to history—perhaps less the end of an era and more the end of an error. But the same Government who broke the system now offer a new package of reforms, and that should really scare us. These are the wrong reforms at the wrong time. There are no answers in them to the waiting times crisis, no answers to the capacity issues in accident and emergency or our ambulance services, no answers to access issues for our GPs or dentists, and no answers to the environmental factors that make a country with so many assets so unhealthy.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
Does the shadow Minister agree that the Bill gives the green light to private profit making companies sitting on integrated care organisations?
Alex Norris
Yes. That was a strong theme in Committee that we on the Opposition Benches are very much against; it is likely to be a prominent theme during our discussion of upcoming amendments. Through what we are discussing now, we at least have the chance to put something in the Bill that might improve the public’s health.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend talked about waiting lists. Would he confirm that at the moment approximately 5.6 million people are on the waiting list and that the Government’s own projections are that that figure could rise to 13 million? What in the Bill does my hon. Friend believe can address that extraordinary situation?
Alex Norris
My hon. Friend makes an important point. This Secretary of State must be the first in the history of the NHS who came into that important role saying that he was expecting waiting times to grow to the extent that they are. That is of course pandemic-related, but it also has a reality far beyond this extraordinary last 18 months. There are more than 125 clauses in the Bill and the Government have proposed more new clauses in Committee and on Report, but not one of them will have a meaningful impact on waiting times, so people should be really disquieted.
Alun Cairns
I have listened carefully to the hon. Member’s comments about waiting times in England and the measures that are to be introduced here. He urged disquiet; can I assume that his disquiet is even louder when he considers my constituents in Wales who have much longer waiting times?
Alex Norris
There is a danger that the right hon. Gentleman has missed the point. The reality is that for a decade there has been historically low investment in our health service, which of course has Barnett consequentials for Wales. That is the reality and why the system is as distressed as it is. I do not think he can put that at the door of the Welsh Government.
Let me come back to public health. Over the past five years we have removed £1 billion in public health funding, which means that the challenges in respect of childhood obesity, smoking, sexual health and access to drug and alcohol services are all developing and growing. The sad thing is that such cuts make an immediate local government saving for the Treasury but create greater costs for the public purse later, never mind the impact on people’s lives. They are the falsest of false economies. For all the talk of the end of austerity, last month’s Budget did nothing to tackle that reality. Indeed, local authorities are under greater pressure and the cycle will continue.
Being smoke-free by 2030 is a major national prize, and with that I turn to new clauses 2 to 11, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy). She made an excellent case and has shown tremendous leadership on this issue, in concert with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), through the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health. They have given the Government a number of really good ways to improve our nation’s efforts and I hope we will hear from the Minister that they will be taken on.
Tackling smoking is a crucial part of not only improving the nation’s health but addressing health inequalities. A child born where I live, Nottingham, can expect to live seven years fewer than a child born here in Westminster. When it comes to healthy life expectancy, we can expect that difference to double. Tackling that inequality should be a core part of the business of this place. Nearly half that inequality is attributable to smoking—that is how pivotal this issue is.
Successive Governments have shown over the past 25 years that we can make inroads with public policy on smoking, but the benefits have been unevenly felt: the smoking rate among those in professional occupations is now down to just one in 10, so is well on track to meet the 2030 target, but incidence rates among those in manual or routine occupations remain a stubborn one in four, so we must now renew our efforts with that group of people who are, of course, disproportionately likely to use stop smoking services—the very services we have lost over the past decade. Of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, the pandemic has posed new challenges, with a new group of people who have started smoking but would not otherwise have done so.
We have been promised a new tobacco control plan by the end of this year, but that promise looks a little less secure by the day—I hope the Minister will tell me I am wrong. We could get on with impactful interventions right away. The labelling and information interventions set out in new clauses 2 to 4 have very strong evidence bases from other countries, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, and would be quick, easy to implement and impactful.
On new clause 4 in particular, we know that e-cigarettes and vaping are important quit aids, but we would not want them to be a gateway for children to smart smoking. We should be concerned about the 2021 YouGov research for ASH—Action on Smoking and Health—that suggests that more than 200,000 11 to 17-year-olds who had never smoked previously had tried vaping this year. As my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said, we must make sure that that age group does not take smoking through that route and that products are not targeted at it.
New clause 5 would tackle the bizarre loophole, which colleagues sometimes struggle to believe is true, that would allow the egregious practice whereby e-cigarettes or similar kit could be given free to someone under 18, although they cannot be sold. That is an extraordinary part of the law and I know that the Minister agrees it is daft—he said that in Committee, but also that he did not feel there was quite the evidence that it was a risk. Well, risk or not, I think the loophole should be closed, because I suspect that eventually someone will happen on it as a bright idea.
New clauses 8 and 10 are a beautiful support to any Minister who wants to improve smoking outcomes in this country, as I know this Minister does, but is conscious about the finances. This gives the Minister a chance, through a US-style polluter pays model, to fund all these interventions, including the restoration of the lost smoking cessation services in this country. He did not close the door to that in Committee when we talked about it, so I hope that he might tell us today that it is likely to form part of the new tobacco control plan. New clause 11 promotes a consultation on raising the age of sale, as we know that the older a person gets, the less likely they are to start smoking.
Let me turn to new clauses 15 to 17 and amendments 11 to 14 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden). Colleagues will have been profoundly moved to hear him speak of his battle with alcoholism, and I know that his bravery has connected with people across the country. I associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham regarding his entirely understandable absence from the Chamber today. With him in mind, I speak in support of those new clauses and amendments.
New clause 15 seeks to improve alcohol product labelling. This is overdue and it is popular. It is about not taking alcohol products out of people’s hands, but instead making sure that they can make an informed choice.
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)
While an energy drink carries not only calorific information but a health warning that drinking too much can have a laxative effect, alcoholic drinks carry no calorific information and no health warning. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a damning indictment of where we are in society and that a change, which the amendment could make, is needed?
Alex Norris
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I completely agree with him. I would be the last one to police people’s consumption habits in the night-time economy for fear of being a hypocrite, but I do think that we should all have informed choice. What we have at the moment is inconsistent and unclear. We know that that frustrates people. A recent survey has shown that: 75% of people would like to know the number of units in a product; 61% would like to know the calorie information, as he mentions; and 53% would like to know the amount of sugar. We should give people the chance to have that full information to make their own decisions.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend will know that two thirds of people in Britain are overweight and that one in four is obese. An enormous amount of added sugar is put into processed foods that people do not know about. Men, for instance, are not supposed to have more than nine teaspoons of added sugar, and women six, which is the equivalent of a can of coke and a light yoghurt. Does he not agree that this Bill is tremendously light on the killer that sugar is, and that not only should we be labelling it, but that the Budget should tax added sugar in processed food to reduce the waiting list?
Alex Norris
My hon. Friend will be delighted to hear that I will be coming on to the modesty of the Government’s plans for tackling obesity, but I have to finish my remarks about new clause 16.
New clause 16 compels the Secretary of State to publish an annual statement about the spend and impact of alcohol treatment funding. After a decade of reduced commitment in this vital area, the Secretary of State should seek to embrace this opportunity. At the moment, national Government cannot say they are meeting their responsibility to tackle alcohol harm with the requisite financial commitment and in the right place, which should discomfort them greatly. New clause 17 would replicate in England the minimum unit pricing restrictions that we see in Scotland and Wales, and we are all watching with great interest as evidence gathers as to their impact.
Let me now turn to the amendments and new clauses relating to advertising. The Government have included a couple of elements of their obesity strategy in the Bill. As I have already said to the Minister—in Committee and upstairs in the delegated legislation Committee—I wish that they had put the entire obesity strategy in this legislation, because there are bits that could have been improved by amendment, by debate and by discussion, as we heard in the contribution of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith), and as I dare say we will in that of the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller). We should have taken that approach to the entire document, and it is sad that we did not.
On the obesity strategy itself, it is too modest and it fails to attack a major cause of obesity, which is poverty.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in what he is saying. I am a type 2 diabetic and I am well aware of the issues. As I understand it, figures that have been gathered during the covid-19 pandemic showed that the number of diabetics rose by some 200,000. That tells me that, if we are going to address the issue of diabetes, we need to have a tax process in place, which I think is what the hon. Gentleman is referring to, rather than a regulation, because that is the only way that we can control diabetes.
Alex Norris
I think that a solution might be a little from column A and a little from column B, but I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point.
We have heard about the modesty of the strategy from the hon. Member for Buckingham. The reality is that any benefits from the obesity strategy will be outstripped by losses in the nation’s health caused by the impact of the cut to universal credit. We want the strategy to succeed, but it needs to be seen in that broader category.
Obesity is an important issue, with nearly two thirds of adults carrying excess weight. Childhood obesity is also a significant issue, with one in 10 children starting primary school obese, rising to one in five by the time they leave—extraordinary at such a young age.
Catherine West
I thank the shadow Minister, who is making an excellent argument, and colleagues across the House for all their work on this important Bill. Does he agree that we could do an enormous amount for the health of the nation by looking holistically at the role of exercise and prescribing exercise through the national health service, including swimming—the statistics on 11-year-olds who can swim 25 metres are going backwards due to all the lessons they have missed during coronavirus—and other important sports?
Alex Norris
Yes, I agree. I look with real sadness at the loss of exercise-on-prescription schemes that were part of the public health grant but have gone over the last decade. Similarly, on swimming, the decisions in the Budget relating to local authorities will lead to councils, which are setting their budgets as we speak, closing more leisure centres and swimming pools. We should mourn those losses, which come as a result of a weak bit of public policy.
In the Bill, the proposed watershed with regard to high fat, sugar and salt products is broadly a good thing. With that in mind, we do not oppose Government amendments 31 to 39, which are relatively modest tweaks, but we should not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about a significant proposal; I know that colleagues have interest in this. Beyond a watershed on traditional broadcast media, we will also see a complete online ban of high fat, sugar and salt advertising. This is a blunt tool in pursuit of an important goal.
New clause 14 in the name of the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire would implement a more nuanced system, as proposed by the advertising industry itself. This is mirrored in amendments 106 to 109 in the name of the hon. Member for Buckingham. We probed this point in Committee. I was surprised then, and remain surprised, that there seems to be little interest from Ministers or the Department in even having that conversation and exploring creative alternatives. The desired benefits are non-negotiables. If there are other ways to achieve those benefits, they ought to be approached with an open mind.
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for mentioning my new clause. We have a number of issues potentially to put to a vote later. Given what he has said and given that the Minister was a bit hazy about this issue in Committee, would he be minded to support my new clause if it were put to a vote and the Minister did not come forward with something more robust?
Alex Norris
The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but my problem is that I want to know that the conversations have taken place and that the proposal has been considered as an option. I would not say today that I think it is the best option, but I am surprised that that conversation has not taken place, which is why I have highlighted it. There is still time for the Minister to reconsider, and he should.
I was less persuaded by amendments 3 to 5 in the name of the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire, which seek to permit brand advertising as long as it does not refer to an HFSS product. In many cases, the brand and product are so inexorably intertwined that it might undermine the goals and aims of the whole intervention. I do, however, support amendments 6 to 8, which refer to the nutrient profiling model—the model that is used to determine what is and is not considered to be a high fat, sugar and salt product. It is important that there is certainty and that it does not move around more than the science would say that it ought to.
We talked about this issue at length in Committee. If we are asking the industry to reformulate and change, companies ought to be able to base product decisions on the certainty that the Government will not arbitrarily change the criteria. Such companies may have made significant time, financial or infrastructure investments in a certain product and then could see the criteria change overnight. In Committee, we extracted a commitment from the Minister to a Government amendment on this matter. That was reiterated in a letter on 13 November, when the Minister wrote to Committee members and committed to
“introducing a Government amendment at Commons Report Stage to include a duty to consult before changing the NPM technical guidance.”
I am surprised not to see that at this point. I hope that we will get clarity from the Minister, or indeed that he is minded to accept these amendments, because this is an important development. We also want the level playing field suggested by amendments 110 to 113, so we will be listening with great interest to his reply.
This is the wrong Bill at the wrong time. It does nothing to address the real causes of ill-health in this country today. In this part of the proceedings, colleagues have given the Minister a chance to change that and I hope he is minded to take it.
Richard Fuller
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris). I will speak to new clause 14 and the other amendments in my name. I am grateful for the Opposition’s support for amendments 6, 7 and 8 and for an industry-led alternative—in spirit, if not necessarily in voting. I think the hon. Gentleman, as well as many of my hon. Friends, will be wanting to hear something from the Minister to show that he has been listening to concerns that have been raised across the House.
I was surprised and delighted to see on some of my amendments the name of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), but she advised me that that was an error, so I am sorry that the potential amity between me and those on the Scottish National party Benches will have to wait for another day.
Dr Whitford
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman because that has saved me from having to put a disclaimer at the start of my speech, as I was rather shocked to find my name on his amendments. I just reiterate the point made by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris). It is a concern that the names of companies, as we saw in F1 racing and other things, simply promote certain types of food and drink and you cannot separate the brand from the product.
Richard Fuller
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making her point clear.
As the hon. Lady and other hon. Members know, my amendments relate to the ways in which the Government are seeking to restrict advertising for foods that are high in fat, sugar and salt as part of their obesity strategy. Those measures essentially ban such advertising on TV before the 9 pm watershed and ban all paid-for HFSS advertising online at any time of the day or night. My hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) has already done a very good job in drawing out some concerns about that.
What are the concerns about what the Government are doing? First, I should mention that I have a number of important food businesses based in my constituency, including Unilever and the cereal company Jordans Dorset Ryvita, and I think everyone would be surprised to hear that products such as porridge, muesli and granola are going to be subject to these bans. All these products have ingredients such as naturally occurring oils and sugars, as well as fibre, vitamins and minerals, and because of those natural ingredients they will be caught by the Government’s definition of “HFSS”.
It is also worth considering—I was not on the Committee and I do not know if it was considered at length—the impact on food services such as takeaways and home-delivered foods. Papa John’s, which is located near me in Milton Keynes, supports hundreds of entrepreneurs and small businesses through its franchise model, and it writes to warn me:
“These would restrict our ability to invest in our businesses and our people, at a time of significant economic uncertainty for the UK economy, and would also place our franchisees, many of whom are single owner small businesses, on an unsustainable financial footing.”
I think the Government have to do a few more hard yards in support of our small businesses, and this is not a very good way of showing any support for them.
Jim Shannon
The number of diabetics, both type 1 and type 2, across the United Kingdom and the number of children with obesity is rising. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that new clause 14 cannot address the issue of those rising numbers? If it cannot, what more needs to be done?
Richard Fuller
I absolutely do not agree. The reason why the Opposition Front-Bench team are probing on this is that we are not harnessing all the talents to come up with the solution. As the hon. Member for Nottingham North said, he does not have, or want, any objection to the objective—he just feels that there may be better ways to do it. That is what my amendments are trying to create. They would introduce a better way, working with established principles and with the industry—let us face it, it has the experts in this—rather than undermining issues to do with how the Advertising Standards Authority has managed how products are advertised and rather than bulldozing through the industry, which is the current process that the Government, or this Department anyway, are proposing.
Let us just remember that this pressure on our food and drink manufacturers is part of a wider effort of social responsibility that we are putting on them. The proposal does not sit alone, but with other things, in particular around environmental protection. The Food and Drink Federation has calculated that the cost of the UK Government’s proposed environmental health policies is at least £8 billion. That is equivalent to £160 a year on household food bills that we are asking the industry to take on.
It is estimated that the introduction of this policy will cost £833 million, but the Government’s own impact assessment estimates that the benefits are likely to be in the order of only £118 million. That is a real dead loss that we will be putting, let us face it, on food bills, primarily of those in lower income brackets. Members on all sides should take a moment to consider whether this is the right time and the right process for doing that. As the Government’s own assessment shows, the actual effect on diet for those who are targeted is estimated to be 1.7 calories a day, so it is a lot of effort and cost, but not very much impact.
New clause 14 proposes an alternative that would require the regulator to implement an alternative set of increased restrictions for online, but developed through the industry by the Committee of Advertising Practice. The new clause would legislate for a three-step filtering process drawn up by the industry to appropriately manage the targeting of online ad campaigns.
Another of my amendments would introduce brand exemptions. I take a different view from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire, who said that brands are intrinsically tied to their product. The truth of the matter is that Coca Cola is made by Coke and Coke Zero is made by Coke. Coke Zero is advertised with the word “Coke” on it. This issue is not necessarily covered by the legislation, but Coke is not tied to one thing. Brands are extraordinarily flexible in how they can assist progress in achieving some social means. The Minister should consider looking again at this area.
Finally, on the nutritional profile, the issue is consultation. I can see that the Secretary of State has tabled some amendments on that, and perhaps the Minister can talk about that. They do not seem to make the changes I would like to see, but I would be interested to hear what he has to say.
It is worrying that the Government have undermined the Advertising Standards Authority with their approach. One of the other things is targeted advertising. I am sure it has struck hon. Members here as it has me that the tech revolution of the dotcom era was 20 years ago, and two decades of technical expertise in understanding how adverts are targeted is being swept away or ignored by the Department of Health and Social Care, which would much rather have “nanny knows what’s best”. The truth of the matter is that, by harnessing technology, the Government could get a better outcome than this official ban. As my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham said, there are plenty of other ways to do it that would be hard for advertisers to get around.
I say to the Minister that I am trying to be helpful, as always, and, to be serious, as are the Opposition. The Government have made a slight misstep by adopting a top-down, state-driven model. I say to the Minister that the path of good intentions is littered with unintended consequences. The essence of conservatism is not to use the state to bully or, as perhaps the advisers in the various Departments say in modern parlance, to nudge. It amounts to one and the same thing. The Department’s attempt to censor products such as these is profoundly un-Conservative. Our party believes in individual responsibility and that families are the foundation of society where choices and power in society most naturally lie. Nowhere is that more important than in health matters, yet these proposals extend the role of the state and undermine parental responsibilities.
The measures make the Department of Health and Social Care look like a new outpost of cancel culture that denies free speech and has a predisposition that individuals should conform to what the state determines, rather than enabling informed free choice. It is desperately sad to see them being pushed through by a Conservative Administration. I say to my colleagues on the Back Benches: when will we wake up and realise that we need a Government who support free enterprise and individual responsibility, and who understand that the way to create growth in the economy is through enabling people to make free choices, rather than expecting the state to be the answer to every problem? With that question, I will wait to listen to what the Minister has to say.
Dr Whitford
I thank the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) for clarifying that I had not voluntarily added my name to his amendment.
Whenever we talk about such subjects, we hear a lot about the nanny state. As a surgeon working in A&E in general surgery, however, the difference when seatbelts, airbags and speed limits came in was night and day in how much time I spent dealing with people in operating theatres who had been involved in car crashes. Sometimes the state has to take action to protect people’s health and wellbeing.
The Bill focuses largely on reversing some of the most egregious aspects of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which I welcome, but these measures focus on improving public health. There is no question that obesity, type 2 diabetes and other diseases associated with obesity pose not just a real threat to individual health but a threat that will overwhelm national health services in future. When I looked at the original Bill, however, I was surprised that, apart from the measures around obesity, there was little in the way of public health policy to improve and promote health, and there is also little enough about care.
It is not the national health service that delivers health. I have often said that it would be more appropriate to call it the national illness service, but who would want to work somewhere called that? The NHS spends most of its time catching people when they fall. Health comes from a decent start in life, a warm dry home, enough to eat and a decent education. Those are the things that deliver health, but there is nothing like them in the Bill.
Particularly, and surprisingly, there is nothing in the Bill on reducing harm from tobacco products and alcohol, which is why I rise to speak in support of new clauses 2 to 4, which seek to strengthen the health warnings on all tobacco products; new clauses 7 to 10, which seek to allow regulation of tobacco pricing; and particularly new clause 6, because the use of sweet flavourings to entice children and young people to take up smoking is indefensible.
Barry Gardiner
I heartily commend the hon. Lady for her comments. Does she experience in her constituency, as I do in mine, that smoking cessation services are diminishing and becoming less successful? As the tobacco industry concentrates on a core group of existing addicts, it is desperate to move down the age range and encourage new addicts. That is why that element of the new clause is important.
Dr Whitford
I agree that new clause 6 is the most important of the new clauses, because tobacco companies are driven to recruit new victims—as I would have to call them, as a doctor—and they are recruiting them from young people.
Public health is devolved, so we have not had the cuts in public health funding that we have unfortunately seen in England since 2016. Therefore, we have not had the cuts to smoking cessation and sexual health services that many local authorities experienced across England when public health moved into local government.
Smoking does not just cause respiratory problems such as chronic obstructive airway disease, but affects all the blood vessels causing peripheral vascular disease, vascular dementia, strokes, heart attacks and many forms of cancer, not just lung cancer. Stopping smoking is the best favour anyone can do themselves, but many people require the very smoking cessation services that the hon. Gentleman mentioned.
Christian Wakeford
Obviously, as the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on alcohol harm, I know that part of the issue with treatment—I am thinking in particular of new clause 16—is the stigma behind alcohol dependency and its still being seen as a personal choice. While we need to overcome the stigma of addiction, we first need to be having a conversation about alcohol. Does the hon. Member agree that, as part of the treatment, we need to be having this conversation on a national level?
Dr Whitford
I would say that really no one who has a health problem should be stigmatised. Having dealt over 33 years in the NHS with many people who were problem drinkers, I know that the public image of someone who abuses alcohol is quite a caricature. There will be many people across this House who drink more than is healthy for them and I have met many people as patients from the middle and upper classes who had serious alcohol problems, so we should get away from the stigma and the caricature. We will not spot everyone who needs to deal with alcohol just by looking at them.
Catherine West
I commend the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) in this regard. Does the hon. Lady agree with me that the whys and wherefores are all very well in this debate, but in the end the cuts to local government, which would primarily be providing services in relation to alcohol abuse, have been most disgraceful, and that is why we are seeing the huge increase in the number of people who have passed away from alcohol disease in the last couple of years following covid?
Dr Whitford
There is no question but that, after public health moved into local government—we can absolutely defend that because, as I have said, health is often delivered by things that are nothing to do with the NHS—the problem was that the budget was then cut, so the potential benefit of putting public health into local government was lost due to the cuts to services.
On alcohol not being classed as a less healthy food, with this Government I find it hard not to ask: why not, and what or who may have influenced that decision? I certainly support amendments 11 to 13 from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden), which would include alcohol, particularly the medium and high-strength alcohols, under less healthy foods, so that alcohol is covered by advertising regulations. I also support his new clause 15, which would mandate much clearer labelling of alcohol units, or whatever measure, on labels. It is no good just saying “Drink aware” or “Drink Responsibly” when the consumer has not actually been given the tools on the product to make a proper choice, such as by asking, “How much is in this?” Why not agree to use a simple, straightforward approach? A lot of public health advice is in units, so why not actually use them? People would then learn to be aware and ask, “How many units have I already drunk today?” or “How many units have I already drunk this week?”
New clause 17 calls on the UK Government to follow Scotland, and now Wales, by introducing a minimum unit price for alcohol. The UK Government have the advantage in that they can do that by setting alcohol duty based on unit, instead of on classes of drink. In every Budget we hear about a penny on a pint of beer, or so much on spirits, but why not do it by unit? It is much more accurate, and it would still allow the raising of taxation to help fund alcohol services, as well as those public services most hit by alcohol abuse, such as healthcare and policing. Under devolution the Scottish Government, and now the Welsh Government, did not have that power.
Over the past year and a half of the pandemic we have, unfortunately, seen a big increase in both smoking and alcohol consumption, as people struggled to cope with the loneliness and boredom associated with lockdowns and pandemic restrictions. However, the initial valuation of minimum unit pricing in Scotland showed that alcohol sales fell, for the first time in many years, by more than 7% in Scotland, compared with a continued rise in England and Wales. It was not possible to demonstrate a reduction in overall alcohol-associated admissions to hospital, which may include car accidents, violence and so on, but there was a drop in admissions due to alcoholic liver disease, suggesting that the policy was working. More evaluation after the pandemic will be required, but an immediate impact was an almost three-quarters drop in the sales of cheap white cider. That product is cheaper than soft drinks, and predominantly used by young—indeed, often under-age—drinkers, who purchase it, or get someone else to purchase it, so that they can drink it at home. However, that sector is literally disappearing overnight.
It will be important to review and maintain the pressure of the unit price on a regular basis, because young drinkers also drink many other products—this is the same issue as young smokers; more people are being recruited, often into problem drinking and problem products. Minimum unit pricing does not affect good wine, high-end spirits, or what is sold in a pub, but it does affect what someone can buy in a small shop to then hang out with their mates in their bedroom. Some of those products are not affected by the 50p unit price, and that must be kept under review.
I was disappointed that new clause 30, which is listed for discussion tomorrow, was not included in this group. It calls on the Government to reform the out-of-date Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, and to devolve it so to allow the devolved nations to take a public health approach to tackling drug addiction, in the same way as we take a public health approach to dealing with alcohol. Such an approach has already been demonstrated in many countries across the world, yet the Government keep sticking their head in the sand.
Hywel Williams
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for mentioning new clause 30, which I still hope against hope we might be able to discuss tomorrow. I am sure she will agree that problematic drug abuse is an illness and a social ill, not a crime, and our emphasis must be on harm reduction, treatment, and support for the problematic drug user.
Dr Whitford
That is the policy of the Scottish Government, and we would absolutely support the new clause if it is voted on tomorrow.
As Opposition Members have said, key to improving public health would be restoring the non-covid related public health budget in England. We cannot hide behind covid funding, because that is used up by the pandemic and does not help us with smoking, alcohol, or drug addiction. The biggest contribution the Government could make would be to abandon their plans for yet another decade of austerity. We hear the slogan all the time—levelling up—but it rings hollow after taking away £1,000 a year from the poorest families and most vulnerable households. Over the past decade, cuts to social security have caused a rise in poverty among pensioners, disabled people, and particularly children. Sir Michael Marmot was mentioned earlier, and his research was clear: poverty is the biggest single driver of ill health, and the biggest driver of poverty is Tory austerity.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), who brings her knowledge of the medical profession to this House on every occasion. I agreed with almost everything she had to say, apart from the last comment.
I declare my interest as chair of the all-party group on smoking and health, and I support all the new clauses tabled in the name of the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy). These comprehensive proposals are complementary and can be picked up by the Government. The new clauses were tabled in a different form in Committee. They were discussed and debated, and I think Ministers said they would take them away and have a further look. We have refined the proposals on the basis of the debate in Committee, strengthened them, and brought them back again, and they address the loopholes in current legislation. They strengthen the regulation of tobacco products still further, and they provide funding for the tobacco control measures that are so desperately needed if we are to deliver the Government’s Smokefree 2030 ambition.
We had an excellent debate in Westminster Hall last week, to which the new Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maggie Throup) responded. Questions were posed to the Government from across the Chamber about when we will see the long-promised tobacco control plan, which is presumably due to be delivered by 31 December this year. We got no firm commitment on when we will see it, and I would like my hon. Friend the Minister to bring that forward as soon as possible. We can then measure what will happen.
The problem we have with tobacco control right now is that if we do nothing and none of these measures is introduced, the risk is that, as the hon. Member for City of Durham rightly articulated, we will miss the target by seven years. For those on low incomes and in deprived circumstances, it will be 14 years. We must consider how many people will die from smoking-related diseases as a direct result of the Government’s failure to achieve their Smokefree 2030 ambition. It is clear that we need to take further action, and I urge the Minister, who I know is a doughty campaigner for public health, to make sure that we deliver on the proposals.
My main focus is obviously on the new clauses that seek to provide funding for tobacco control. We all accept that not only can we implement measures, but we have somehow to fund them. That is critical. We must also consider raising the age of sale, as that, unfortunately, is a key proponent in encouraging young people to start smoking. The spending review failed to address the 25% real-terms cut to public health funding since 2015. Reductions in spending on tobacco control have bitten even deeper, by a third, since 2015. We need new sources of funding.
The Government promised to consider a polluter pays levy in the 2019 Prevention Green Paper, when they announced the Smokefree 2030 ambition. The all-party group on smoking and health has done the analysis, and we estimate that in the first year alone of a polluter pays levy, £700 million could be raised. That would benefit not only England, but the whole United Kingdom. It is more than twice the estimated cost of the tobacco control measures that we are proposing tonight, and that would then leave the Government with further funding to spend on other health priorities. The proposal is for a user fee, along United States lines, rather than an additional tax. Now that we have exited the European Union and can set our own rules, EU tobacco manufacturers’ profits can be controlled. They cannot pass the cost on to the consumer, but we can control their profits and use those for preventing people from smoking in the first place. It is quite justified that we should tax the manufacturers’ profits. This is the most highly addictive product that is legally available, and it kills those who use it for the purpose for which it was intended.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman refers to public health funding since 2015, but is he aware that in 2015, it was identified that the cost to the NHS of smoking was £144.8 million in prescriptions, almost £900 million in out-patient visits, almost £900 million in hospital admissions, and a total of £2.6 billion? Is not investing in smoking cessation money well spent?
Bob Blackman
Clearly, if we invest in public health and smoking cessation, we prevent costs in the health service later. It is estimated that most of the cost of people’s healthcare arises in the last two years of their life. Individuals who suffer from cancer or other respiratory diseases caused by smoking will cost the health service dramatic sums of money, so through cessation, we are helping the nation to be healthier and, indeed, saving money for the health service in the long run.
To quote the chief medical officer, the great majority of people who die from lung cancer
“die so that a small number of companies can make profits from the people who they have addicted in young ages, and then keep addicted to something which they know will kill them.”
The time has come to make the tobacco manufacturers pay for the damage that they do, not only to older people but to young people in particular. We need to bring forward the day when smoking is finally obsolete in this country, and I regret to say that if we do not take measures, the time before that day arrives will be lengthened quite considerably.
However, funding alone is not enough; we have to consider tough regulation. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire mentioned that since lockdown, we have seen the smoking rate among young adults surge by 25%. In the United States, raising the age of sale from 18 to 21 reduced the smoking rate among 18 to 20-year-olds by 30%. We could do the same thing here. We talk about complementary measures; giving tobacco products away is not illegal at the moment. Just imagine—tobacco manufacturers may say, “If we give tobacco products away for free, we can encourage people to become addicted, and then they will buy them, and that will lead them on to a lifetime of smoking.” We have to break that chain of events and make sure that people do not do that.
I have a passion for ensuring that women do not smoke in pregnancy. That is one of the most stubborn measures, and we have to overcome it. Some 11% of women still smoke in pregnancy. We must give them every incentive and introduce every measure to ensure that they give up smoking, and that their partners give up smoking at the same time. That is something that I passionately support.
Our revised amendment, new clause 11, addresses the concerns that the Government raised in Committee about a review of the evidence. I hope that the Government will adopt the new clause at this stage, and then look at the evidence and consult.
People start smoking at certain key points in their life. They may take it up when they are at school and their friends are smokers and they want to be part of the team or the gang. They may take it up when they go to college or university or start a new job, when they are in a new social environment, or at a dreadful time of stress in their life. We have to make sure that they understand that if they take up smoking, they will shorten their life and cause damage to their health—and, indeed, to the health of the people around them.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
I am following my hon. Friend’s argument closely. Does he agree that there is an interrelationship between the issues to do with alcohol dependency that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) mentioned and the issue of smoking? One of the things that comes out from the book “Alcohol Reconsidered” by Lesley Miller and Catheryn Kell-Clarke is that the science shows that alcohol reduces people’s inhibitions, and it is therefore more likely that they will smoke. If we had a culture of moderation in alcohol, we would probably do better on smoking.
Bob Blackman
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for raising that point. Clearly, the fact that people can no longer smoke in public houses or restaurants has dramatically reduced the incidence of smoking. Someone has to make a deliberate decision to go outside and inflict their smoke on the outside world rather than on the people in the public house or restaurant.
We who support these amendments tabled them in Committee—we sought Government support and we debated them in Committee—and now we are debating them on Report. I understand that we may not be successful tonight, but I give fair warning that these amendments, in another form, will be tabled in the other place, and we will see what happens. We know that there is very strong support in the other place for anti-tobacco legislation. In July 2021, the Lords passed by 254 votes to 224 a motion to regret that the Government had failed to make it a requirement that smoke-free pavement licences must be 100% smoke free. That is smoking in the open air; we are talking about measures to combat smoking overall.
Finally, if we look back over the years, the measures on smoking in public places, on smoking in vehicles, on smoking when children are present and on standardised packaging of tobacco products were all led from the Back Benches. Governments of all persuasions resisted them, for various reasons. I suspect that my hon. Friend the Minister, whom I know well, may resist these measures tonight, but we on the Back Benches who are determined to improve the health of this country will continue to press on with them, and we will win eventually. It may not be tonight, but those measures will come soon. I support the measures that are proposed.
Geraint Davies
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who gave an eloquent speech about smoking. What he did not include, and what the Minister is not considering, is the mass passive smoking from air pollution, which causes 64,000 deaths a year. I know that I am in danger of being outside the scope of the Bill, but I will make this point just briefly, because it is about public health.
Indoor and outdoor air pollution is endemic. It costs £20 billion a year. We could simply ban wood-burning stoves, which 2.5 million people have and which contribute 38% of the PM2.5 emissions in our atmosphere. That is particularly problematic in poorer areas. I make this point partly as I chair the all-party parliamentary group on air pollution, but this is a critical public health issue, so I feel that the Department of Health and Social Care should look at it centrally, rather than leaving it to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs as an air quality issue.
I turn to the comments by the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), who sadly is not in his place, about free choice in advertising. Advertising is not about free choice; one would not need to advertise unless one was trying to convince somebody to do something they would not otherwise do. That is not to say that advertising is always bad—good things and bad things can be advertised—but let us be straightforward.
As it happens, I have a background in multinational marketing; I have been involved with PG Tips and Colgate toothpaste—good products. However, the reality is that if someone wanted to make money from a product such as a potato, which is intrinsically good for people, they could impregnate it with salt, sugar and fat, make it into the shape of a dinosaur, get a jingle and call it “Dennis’s Dinosaurs”, and make a lot of money out of that simple potato. That is the way a lot of processed foods work.
Going back to the point about diabetes and added sugar, it is important to remember that diabetes in Britain costs something like £10 billion a year. There is a compelling case for the Government to do more about added sugar, as opposed to natural sugar; obviously, we could discriminate between the two, though a lot of manufacturers will say, “Are you going to tax an apple?”. Clearly, when a child or adult can find a huge bar of chocolate in a shop for £1, we have problems, in terms of the amount of sugar we are supposed to have. Henry Dimbleby put forward a national food strategy, which is worth a read. He makes the key point that reducing the overall amount of money people have—for instance, through universal credit—has a major impact: we find that when universal credit goes down, consumption of alcohol and smoking go up.
It is important for the Department of Health and Social Care to have an idea of how the nutrition of particular natural foods can be increased through better farming. An app will be available next year that will enable people to test a carrot in their local shop. The carrot will have different levels of antioxidant, depending on how it is grown. If it is organic and not impregnated with all sorts of fertiliser and chemicals, it develops a natural resistance to pesticides and is much better for human health. The Government should, in this post-Brexit world, be actively encouraging local high-value, high-nutrition products for export and local consumption.
A whole range of public health measures that need to be moved forward are not in the strategy; but some are, such as those raised by the hon. Member for Harrow East.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I call Christian Wakeford. Do you wish to remain seated?
Christian Wakeford
That is greatly appreciated, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I would like to put on record my support for amendments 11, 12 and 13, and new clauses 15 and 16. I also thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden). We have heard why he cannot be here; I wish him well with what is going on in his family.
These much-needed amendments and new clauses are aimed at reducing alcohol harm by introducing advertising restrictions, transparent alcohol labelling and support for effective alcohol treatment. Alcohol abuse leads to many harmful things, and deserves to be called the silent killer. I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on alcohol harm, and the group has heard in our evidence sessions the stories of those affected by alcohol. It has the potential to destroy individuals, families and wider society. Alcohol has a very public face, but it harms privately. Hospital admissions and deaths from alcohol are at record levels, and have been exacerbated by the covid-19 pandemic. Some 70 people die every day in the UK due to alcohol. Alcohol harm is a hidden health crisis that needs to be recognised.
The Bill does not go far enough to stem the rising tide of this issue. For instance, the Bill introduces restrictions on advertising for “less healthy” products, such as sugary soft drinks, but the same restrictions do not apply to adverts for alcoholic drinks, despite alcohol being linked to more than 200 health conditions, as well as having very high calorie and sugar content. There is significant evidence that children who are exposed to alcohol marketing will drink more earlier than they otherwise would. Existing laws are failing to protect children and vulnerable people. In fact, four in five 11 to 17-year-olds have seen alcohol advertising in the past month. The advertising they are exposed to builds alcoholic brand awareness and influences their perceptions of alcohol. A forthcoming report by Alcohol Health Alliance found that seven in 10 young people recognise the beer brand Guinness, including more than half of 11 to 12-year-olds. Amendments 11 to 13 would ensure that alcohol was considered a less healthy product and was therefore liable to the same proposed restrictions as sugary soft drinks when it comes to advertising on TV, on demand and online.
Awareness of the risks of alcohol is low: about 80% of people do not know the chief medical officer’s low-risk drinking guidelines of 14 units a week; only 25% are aware that alcohol can cause breast cancer; and only 20% know the calories in a large glass of wine. I need only refer you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to the Six Nations championship earlier this year—you may have a slightly better recollection of it than I do. There was alcohol-related advertising on billboards around the stadiums. There were many billboards advertising alcoholic brands. There were also drink awareness campaigns, but they were not seen, due to where those advertisements were placed. People were seeing adverts for Guinness, but not for Guinness 0.0 or for drink awareness campaigns. This is something that the Government really need to look into.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
I rise to support the amendments in my name: 110, 111, 112 and 113. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I have a significant number of food and drink manufacturers in my constituency, and that I chair the all-party parliamentary group for food and drink manufacturing. I also support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) and for Buckingham (Greg Smith), and fully support and endorse their comments.
In reality, I and many others would have preferred clause 125 and the whole of schedule 16 to have been removed from the Bill. I and I think many others are not convinced that that is really the way forward or that it will achieve very much. That view is shared by many of my colleagues, but also by many in the advertising industry and the food and drink sector. That is not because they are against the Government’s attempts to respond to the challenge of obesity, which is and should be a concern for all of us, but because their impact is likely to be so insignificant that it is disproportionate to what is proposed. We should also remember that the industry has already done a huge amount. It is incredibly innovative—reformulation, reductions in salt and sugar—and the reductions we have already seen are very significant. The industry continues to make changes and I believe it will continue to do so in the future. We should also remember that there is something called personal responsibility.
There is an opportunity, however, for compromise and improvements to schedule 16—hence the various amendments that have been tabled. I very much hope that the Government will be willing to compromise in their approach and see the benefits of the amendments that stand in my hon. Friends’ names and mine. I do not intend to detain the House for long, because my amendments are primarily technical rather than anything greater.
I tabled amendments 111, 112 and 113 because I believe that we want a food and drink manufacturing sector that is competitive and is based in the UK as much as possible. As presently drafted, the Bill exempts certain businesses, but the criteria are based on UK employee numbers. Large multinational companies could therefore be exempt if the UK element of their business has under 250 employees; conversely, a UK business with 250-plus employees would not be exempt. That has the potential to be unfair in many respects to UK businesses from a competition perspective, and could lead them to divert manufacturing abroad. A simple solution would be to take account of turnover as well as staff numbers. I have suggested using the definition in section 465 of the Companies Act 2006, which I believe would deal with the situation.
Under the Bill, paid-for branded adverts for products that are high in fat, salt or sugar would be prevented on retailer-owned spaces, but retailers would still be able to advertise equivalent HFSS own-brand products. That could distort competition directly between retailers’ and manufacturers’ products. Amendment 110 would ensure a level playing field, which in my view would be much fairer.
I hope that the Government will be receptive to my amendments—if not now, via changes introduced in the other place. In anticipation of such a compromise, I do not intend to put them to the vote.
The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)
I am grateful for this evening’s debate. More than once during the passage of the Bill, I have put on the record the Government’s commitment to improving and protecting the public’s health and have paid tribute to the hard work and dedication of our NHS and public health professionals in rising to the greatest infectious disease challenge of modern times. I would again like to put on the record those important points, with which I know Opposition Front Benchers agree.
Our commitment to public health is clear in the Bill, in the proposals set out in the Government’s recently published plan for health and care, “Build Back Better”, and in our wider programme of public health reform. A focus on the prevention of avoidable diseases is a central principle in delivering a sustainable NHS and in levelling up health outcomes across the country.
Childhood obesity is one of the biggest health challenges that this nation faces. The latest data from the national childhood measurement programme revealed that approximately 40% of children leaving primary school in England were overweight or living with obesity.
Catherine West
The Minister is being generous in allowing interventions. Is the Bill silent on the challenge around prescriptions for exercise? In an earlier intervention, I mentioned the impact of school swimming. Unfortunately, we are going backwards: fewer 11-year-olds can swim 25 metres—that is just an example. On childhood obesity, we need to address both: not just diet, but exercise.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, with whom I worked in London local government many moons ago on issues not dissimilar to those that we are debating. The Bill focuses on diet and the obesity that it causes, but she is right to highlight that exercise and a healthy lifestyle also play a key role in tackling obesity. We do not believe that the Bill is the right place to put that role into legislation, but I join in the sentiment underpinning what the hon. Lady says. Schools, local authorities and health bodies need to consider the issue in the round.
Nearly two thirds of adults—64%—are also overweight or living with obesity. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) for gently tempting me to respond to his points about the nanny state, but I would argue that it is not being a nanny state to look out for the health of our citizens. Yes, it is about giving advice and giving people the information to make informed judgments, but it is also about putting in place a proportionate framework in legislation.
As with the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), I did not agree with everything that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) said, particularly her concluding comments, but I listened carefully to her comments about seatbelts. She said that she, as a clinician, saw the impact that legislation on that public health and public safety measure had on reducing injuries.
John Stevenson
Does the Minister agree that the industry itself is doing an awful lot now to support the Government’s agenda? Does he also acknowledge that personal responsibility is very important?
Edward Argar
I wondered what I was about to have bowled at me there, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I entirely agree that a huge amount of progress has been made; we believe that we need to go further with our proposals, but he is right to highlight that progress. He is also right to highlight the relevance of the central role of personal responsibility and the decisions that we and our families all take.
To meet the ambition of halving childhood obesity by 2030, it is imperative that we reduce children’s exposure to less healthy food and drink product advertising on TV and online. We want to ensure that the media our children engage with the most promote a healthy diet. The Bill therefore contains provisions to restrict the advertising of less healthy food and drink products on TV, in on-demand programme services and online.
Richard Fuller
The Minister has just mentioned seatbelts, and earlier he talked about alcohol and cigarette smoking, but this is about porridge and muesli. There is a sense that there is no end to what the Department of Health and Social Care feels is its responsibility to legislate on for what people should be able to do for themselves and their family. My point is that this is overreach by the state, as well as perhaps being the incorrect process for achieving the Government’s aims.
Edward Argar
I know my hon. Friend well and entirely understand the perspective that he brings, but I would argue as a counterpoint that the Bill strikes a proportionate balance, in the same vein as with seatbelts and other issues. Alongside personal choice and giving people the information to make choices, I believe that it is a proportionate and balanced approach—not the thin end of the wedge, as he might suggest, although perhaps I am characterising his words unfairly.
Edward Argar
May I make a little more progress? I have more to say on obesity, so my right hon. Friend should not worry.
We held two consultations, the first in 2019 and the second in 2020, which have informed our policy on introducing further restrictions to the advertising of less healthy food and drink products. I welcome the devolved Administrations’ engagement and support for the policy, which is being brought forward UK-wide. The UK Government have engaged with them extensively on the matter since early 2021; I put on the record my gratitude for the spirit in which they have approached it.
Dr Lewis
I happen to agree that there is a question of proportionality on the alleged nanny state issues, but does my hon. Friend agree that where an issue is contentious—such as the fluoridation of water supplies, which has been contentious over many years in this House—it should be properly debated before the state takes control of it, not just tucked away at the end of a very long Bill? That causes me concern.
Edward Argar
I take my right hon. Friend’s point, but I would argue that we are placing the matter before the House in a Bill that has been debated and has gone through its stages, including one of the longest Committee stages of a Bill in my time in this House. There is, or was, the opportunity for Members to table amendments on Report on the aspect that he mentions, and I suspect that it will be extensively debated in the other place as well. I take his point, but I would argue that we have provided sufficient time and have brought the issue to the House in that way.
Edward Argar
All I would say—without in any way implying any criticism of right hon. or hon. Members—is that soon after I entered the House I was a member of the Procedure Committee for a year, and one of the first pieces of advice I was given was to read the legislation and go through it in its entirety. I recognise that this is a long and complex piece of legislation, but I would make that point.
Telecommunications and internet services are reserved matters. The UK Government are clear about the fact that the primary purpose of provisions on the advertising of less-healthy food and drink for TV and internet services is to regulate content on reserved media, and on that basis the policy is reserved. The purpose is not incidental. Therefore, the provisions do not fall within the competence of the devolved legislatures or engage the legislative consent process. While the Scottish and Welsh Governments have agreed with our policy ambitions, they disagree with our legal assessment, and thus far we have had to agree to disagree on this matter, but we have had extensive engagement, and I suspect that we will continue to do so. I see that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire is in her place, and while she is present I would like to thank both Governments for their engagement and offer my assurances that it will continue as we implement the policy for the benefit of citizens across the UK.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
It was my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire who inspired my intervention. I just want the Government to make it clear that they are not contributing to a strange paradox which seems to prevail in modern society, that of being simultaneously more puritanical and more prurient. We are prurient in that we let the tech giants corrupt our children in all kinds of ways, and puritanical in that we are censorious about the jokes people tell, the language they use, and how much ice cream—or indeed Christmas cake—they eat.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. It has been a while since he intervened while I was at the Dispatch Box, so this has been a pleasure. I have never seen him as in any way a puritan; I suspect that he is rather more a cavalier in his approach to life.
My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire has also tabled amendments to schedule 16 which would insert in the Bill an exemption from the advertising restrictions for brand advertising. I am grateful to him, but I can reassure him that the Bill already delivers that exemption, and I therefore believe that his amendments are not necessary to achieve the effect that he seeks. We made that clear in the consultation response published in June this year, and in speeches made in Committee.
My hon. Friend has also tabled new clause 14. As I am sure he and other Members are aware, the Government consulted on different approaches for restricting online advertising in 2019, and considered alternatives submitted through the consultation process. However, it was felt that the alternatives, including the proposal from the Committee of Advertising Practice to use a self-regulatory mechanism based on targeting, were sufficiently similar to the policy options previously consulted on. These were not sufficient to meet the objective of the policy, namely to protect children from advertisements for less-healthy food and drink.
Alun Cairns
Does the Minister accept that there is a significant inconsistency between the approach to television broadcasters and the approach to those who use social media and online provision, and that a consistent approach would help? Does he also accept that a considerable array of views has been expressed by those seeking to help him to develop the Bill in a positive way, and will he maintain an open mind as it passes through the other place to establish whether it can be refined to achieve some of these objectives?
Edward Argar
I hope I can reassure my right hon. Friend, and other Members, that I always seek to maintain an open mind, and always seek to reflect carefully on the contributions made by Members. I will turn shortly to the challenges posed by television, which is essentially a linear broadcasting medium, in comparison with those posed by online broadcasting. I am conscious that I must conclude my speech before 7 pm.
There is evidence to suggest that the targeting of online adverts does not account for the use of shared devices and profiles between parents and children, the communal viewing of content or false reporting of children’s ages. This, combined with concerns about the accuracy of interest-based targeting and other behavioural data as a way of guessing a user’s age and a lack of transparency and reporting data online, shows why the Government believe that we need to introduce strong advertising restrictions online. Any alternative proposals would therefore need to meet a high bar in terms of protecting children online, and we consider alternatives that rely on a targeting approach to be—currently—potentially insufficient to meet the policy objectives.
Amendments 106 to 109 are relevant to the point that my right hon. Friend has just made. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) for raising these matters. His amendments mean that liability for online advertisements found to be in breach of the restrictions included in the Bill would shift to become the responsibility of the platforms rather than the advertisers, which some may see as providing parity with the enforcement mechanisms for broadcast television.
During the 2020 consultation, we considered whether other actors in the online advertising sphere should have responsibility for breaches, alongside those of advertisers. However, we concluded that this was not the right place to consider that broader issue.
The online advertising ecosystem is complex and dynamic. The scale and speed of advertising online, as well as the personalised nature of advertising and the lack of transparency in this system, makes it difficult for platforms to have control over what is placed on them. The approach that we are taking in the Bill best aligns with the current enforcement frameworks across TV, online and on-demand programme services advertising, and is familiar to industry. It will ensure that there is limited confusion for broadcasters, platforms or advertisers, as the liable parties for less-healthy food and drink product advertising breaches will be the same as those for any other advertising breaches. The Government intend to consider this issue as part of the wider online advertising programme, on which the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will consult in the coming months.
Greg Smith
I am grateful to the Minister for that commitment to consider the points in my amendments, and with that commitment in place, I will not seek to push them to vote. However, may I ask him, as he makes these considerations along with colleagues in the DCMS, to ensure that broadcasters are fully consulted so that they can point out the loopholes that any online provisions could throw up?
Edward Argar
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s confirmation that he does not intend to press his amendments to a Division, and I will ensure that his point will be heard not only in the Department of Health and Social Care but in DCMS as well.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) for his amendments 111 to 113 and for bringing this debate before the House. I would like to reassure him that small and medium-sized enterprises—businesses with 249 employees or fewer—that pay to advertise less healthy food and drink products that they manufacture and/or sell will be exempt from the less healthy food and drink restrictions and can continue to advertise. The definition of SMEs will be provided in secondary legislation and not on the face of the Bill, which will enable Ministers to act promptly in future years if new or emerging evidence suggests that amendments are needed. We will conduct a short consultation as soon as possible on the SME definition to be included in the draft regulations. The Government want to ensure consistency with other definitions for size of business that have been used for other obesity policies, such as the out-of-home calorie labelling policy, to create a level playing field. Our preferred definition, therefore, is a standard definition used by Government across other policies.
Richard Fuller
On the point about an industry-led alternative, on which the Minister has kindly made some comments today, I think that this discussion will continue, particularly when the Bill is considered in the other place, so would he be prepared to meet me so that I can continue to make representations about certain improvements that could be made?
Edward Argar
I am certainly happy to commit that either I, as the Bill Minister, or the relevant policy Minister will meet my hon. Friend to discuss his views in this space.
Amendment 110 would ensure that advertisements placed on distributor or retailer websites are out of scope of the less healthy food and drink advertising restrictions. Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle for tabling the amendment, and I would seek to reassure him that the Government’s intention is to ensure that restrictions are proportionate to the scale of the problem. It is not our intention to prohibit the sale of less healthy food and drink products on the internet. Our aim is to reduce children’s exposure to advertisements of less healthy food and drink products, which is why the restrictions are being applied only to paid-for advertising online—namely, where an advertiser pays by monetary or other reciprocal means for the placement of adverts online.
We appreciate that there will be consumers who seek less healthy food and drink products, which is why this restriction applies only to paid-for advertising, and companies will be able to continue to use owned media in the same way as they do now. The restrictions will not apply to spaces online where full editorial control and ownership apply, such as a brand’s own blog, website or social media page. This means that retailers are able to continue promoting their own products on their own website, as this would not be covered by the restrictions.
I shall turn briefly to Government amendments 32, 35 and 37, tabled in the name of the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. Amendments 32 and 35 will amend the definition of an advertisement placed on television and on-demand programme services to ensure that sponsorship credits around programmes and sponsorship announcements respectively are included for the purpose of this Bill. Members will be aware that sponsorship announcements and sponsorship credits are required so that viewers know which product is sponsoring any particular programme. Although these are not routinely considered to be advertisements in other contexts, the Government’s view is that they could reasonably be considered to be advertising less healthy food and drink products for the purposes of the Bill’s restrictions.
Amendments 32 and 35 will therefore clarify the status of those announcements, in effect to prohibit identifiable less healthy food and drink products from sponsoring programmes before the watershed, in line with the Government’s original policy aims. Amendment 37, meanwhile, will make it clear that UK businesses producing online advertisements intended to be accessed principally by audiences outside the UK fall in scope of the exemption and will not be in breach of the less healthy food and drink advertising restrictions set out in the Bill. This amendment is needed to ensure that the legislation aligns with the Government’s policy intention to exempt advertisements made to be viewed outside the UK. We are confident that the likely frontline regulator already has a clear remit and tests in place that should allow it to apply this exemption effectively.
Christian Wakeford
I reiterate the comment I made earlier that the best way to treat alcohol addiction and dependency is to treat it like a mental health illness, because that is what it is. The best way to do that is to remove the stigma and put more money into mental health, but in trying to overcome the stigma, we need to ensure that there is parity between mental and physical health. If we treat the mental health issue, we treat the alcohol issue. We cannot do one without the other. Will the Minister commit today to going some way towards doing that and to putting more money into mental health to deal with this?
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He will know that this Government have continued not only to highlight and promote parity of esteem between mental and physical health but to increase the funding available to mental health, reflecting that reality on the ground. He is right to highlight that issue.
We have announced a comprehensive set of reforms to alcohol duty in this year’s Budget which, taken with the steps we have put in place on a public health basis, have put in place a strong regime to tackle the consequences of alcohol misuse. We do not feel that this Bill is the place to legislate further on this issue but, as I have said, I am none the less grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton for his amendments and for this opportunity to debate them.
On amendments 11, 12 and 13, this Bill would introduce a 9 pm TV watershed for less healthy food and drink products and a restriction on paid-for advertising of less healthy food and drink online. Those amendments, tabled by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton, would expand the definition of a less healthy product to include alcohol. This would have the effect of making alcohol advertising liable to the watershed proposed for TV programme services and the online restriction on paid-for advertising.
I reassure the hon. Gentleman, through Opposition Members, that the Government have existing measures in place to protect children and young people from alcohol advertising through the alcohol advertising code. Material in the broadcast code and the non-broadcast code relating to the advertising and marketing of alcohol products is already robust, recognising the social imperative of ensuring that alcohol advertising is responsible and, in particular, that children and young people are suitably protected. If new evidence emerges that clearly highlights major problems with the existing codes, the Advertising Standards Authority has a duty to revisit the codes and take appropriate action. Furthermore, the Government introduced additional restrictions last year on alcohol advertising on on-demand programme services, through amendments to the Communications Act 2003.
Clause 129 and schedule 16 are aimed at reducing the exposure of children to less healthy food and drink advertising and the impact of such advertising on child obesity. Less healthy food and drink products—
Edward Argar
I fear that I have only a few minutes left, and I have already taken a number of interventions on this. I want to conclude by covering the tobacco amendments as well, which I know that some colleagues are keen to see a response to. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.
Less healthy food and drink products are not age restricted at the point of purchase, unlike alcohol. Finally, the 2019 and 2020 consultations on advertising restrictions for less healthy food and drink did not consult on alcohol within the restrictions, either online or on TV, so we cannot be sure of the impact these amendments would have on the industry more broadly.
Turning to tobacco in the time I have left, because I know the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) , has taken a close interest in the issue, I thank the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and others, including my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, who have tabled a number of amendments that seek to address the harm caused by smoking in this country. I reassure the hon. Member for City of Durham of the Government’s commitment to becoming smoke free by 2030.
We have successfully introduced many regulatory reforms over the past two decades, and the UK is a global leader in tobacco control. Our reforms include raising the age of sale from 16 to 18, the introduction of a tobacco display ban, standardised packaging and a ban on smoking in cars with children, which all place important barriers between young people and tobacco products. The Government are currently developing our new tobacco control plan, and I reassure the hon. Lady that that will reflect carefully on the APPG’s findings and report.
I am afraid I cannot be tempted to go further than the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup), did in the recent Westminster Hall debate on this question, but I can reassure the hon. Member for City of Durham that we remain committed to bringing forward the tobacco control plan.
Edward Argar
Forgive me; I only have a few minutes and I want to cover the amendments from the hon. Member for City of Durham. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) did manage dexterously to shoehorn air quality more broadly within the scope of these debates, and what he said will have been heard.
New clause 2, which seeks to provide powers for the Secretary of State to impose a requirement for tobacco manufacturers
“to print health warnings on individual cigarettes and cigarette rolling papers”,
is intended, as I understand from the hon. Member for City of Durham, to further strengthen our current public health messaging and encourage smokers to quit. We strongly support measures to stop people smoking, to make smoking less attractive to young people and to educate smokers of its dangers, as we have done through graphic warnings on cigarette packs.
We would need to conduct further research and build a further robust evidence base in support of any such additional measures before bringing them forward. To date, no country has introduced such a measure, so there is currently limited evidence of its impact in supporting smokers to quit. If evidence showed that the requirement would not be effective, it would not be an appropriate power to have in place.
New clause 3, also tabled by the hon. Lady, seeks to provide a power for the Secretary of State to introduce a requirement for manufacturers to insert leaflets containing health information and information about smoking cessation services into cigarette packaging. As I set out in Committee, we believe this power is unnecessary, since the Department could legislate to do that already under the Children and Families Act 2014; inserts could be required for public health messaging through amendments to the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. We already have in place strong graphic images and warnings of the health harms of smoking on the outside of cigarette packs. As part of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, the address for the NHS website, which provides advice for people seeking to quit smoking, is also required on packaging.
The current SPoT regulations prohibit the use of inserts, as there was limited evidence that placing public health messaging inserts inside cigarette packages was more effective than messaging on the outside of packs. Further research would need to be undertaken to help to establish the public health benefit if we were to go further.
Turning briefly to new clause 4, I am grateful again to the hon. Lady for tabling this clause. The Government are clear that they only support the use of e-cigarettes as a tool for smokers who are trying to quit, and we strongly discourage non-smokers and young people from using them. We are committed to ensuring that our regulatory framework continues to protect young people and non-smokers from using e-cigarettes.
Current regulations include requirements on the packaging and labelling of e-cigarettes, along with restrictions on their marketing and the prohibiting of advertising on mainstream media such as TV and radio. While we strongly support measures to protect young people further from cigarettes, we believe the current regime remains appropriate and has the powers in place within it to make changes where required, although I suspect my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East may yet be proved right when he suggests that the other place may return to this at some point.
I have outlined the many steps this Government are taking to address some of the major lifestyle challenges to our health. The Bill represents another step in the direction of preventive healthcare and building a healthier society, an aim I know we all share. I hope the House will support the amendments we have tabled at this stage to strengthen those measures.
I also want to update the House at this point, in the context of the importance of an integrated approach and how it can improve public health measures, on two steps the Secretary of State has taken today that will put NHS staff and technology at the heart of our long-term planning and allow us to take forward the integrated approach that has proved so vital during this pandemic and is so vital to public health.
Edward Argar
I am afraid I will not. I suspect that point will be pertinent to the debate on the first group of amendments tomorrow.
First, we intend to merge Health Education England with NHS England and NHS Improvement, putting education and training of our health workforce at the forefront of the NHS. By bringing this vital function inside the NHS, we can plan more effectively for the long term and have clear accountability for delivery.
Secondly, we also intend to take forward the recommendations of the Wade-Gery report, which included merging NHSX and NHS Digital with NHS England and NHS Improvement, building on the huge progress made on digital transformation during the pandemic and bringing together the digital leadership of the NHS in one place. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to all our colleagues at Health Education England, NHS Digital and NHSX for their exceptional work. These changes build on that contribution and allow us to drive forward further integration and changes that will put the NHS on a firmer footing.
I hope I have reassured hon. Members of the Government’s commitment to improving public health. I urge those who have tabled amendments to consider not pressing them to a Division.
Mary Kelly Foy
I have listened carefully to the debate, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 4
Packaging and labelling of nicotine products
“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the retail packaging and labelling of electronic cigarettes and other novel nicotine products including requirements for health warnings and prohibition of branding elements attractive to children.”—(Mary Kelly Foy.)
This new clause would give powers to the Secretary of State to prohibit branding on e-cigarette packaging which is appealing to children.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
‘Eligible needs | Section 15(3B)’ |
‘The responsible local authority | Section 15(3C)’.”—(Edward Argar.) |
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 33—Support provided by the NHS to victims of domestic abuse—
“(1) Each Integrated Care Board must—
(a) assess, or make arrangements for the assessment of, the need for support for victims of domestic abuse using their services;
(b) prepare and publish a strategy for the provision of such support in its area;
(c) monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of the strategy;
(d) designate a domestic abuse and sexual violence lead; and
(e) publish an annual report on how it has discharged its duties relating to the provision of services to victims of domestic violence under the Care Act 2014.
(2) An Integrated Care Board that publishes a strategy under this section must, in carrying out its functions, give effect to the strategy.
(3) Before publishing a strategy under this section, an Integrated Care Board must consult—
(a) any local authority for an area within the relevant Integrated Care Board’s area;
(b) the domestic abuse local partnership board appointed by the local authority for an area within the relevant clinical commissioning group’s area under section 58 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021; and
(c) such other persons as the relevant local authority considers appropriate.
(4) For the purposes of subsection (4), ‘local authority’ means—
(a) a county council or district council in England; or
(b) a London borough council.
(5) An Integrated Care Board that publishes a strategy under this section—
(a) must keep the strategy under review;
(b) may alter or replace the strategy; and
(c) must publish any altered or replacement strategy.
(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the preparation and publication of strategies under this section.
(7) The power to make regulations under subsection (7) may, in particular, be exercised to make provision about—
(a) the procedure to be followed by an Integrated Care Board in preparing a strategy;
(b) matters to which an Integrated Care Board must have regard in preparing a strategy;
(c) how an Integrated Care Board must publish a strategy;
(d) the date by which an Integrated Care Board must first publish a strategy; and
(e) the frequency with which an Integrated Care Board must review its strategy or any effect of the strategy on the provision of other provision in its area.
(8) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult—
(a) all Integrated Care Boards; and
(b) such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”
This new clause would require Integrated Care Boards to publish a strategy for the provision of support for victims of domestic abuse using their services and designate a domestic abuse and sexual violence lead.
New clause 55—Guidance for babies, children and young people—
“(1) The Secretary of State must publish guidance on how integrated care systems should meet the needs of babies, children and young people aged 0-25.
(2) Integrated care systems must act in accordance with the guidance in subsection (1).”
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish guidance on how integrated care systems should meet the needs of babies, children and young people aged 0-25 and would require integrated care systems to act in accordance with the guidance.
New clause 57—NHS England’s duty as to reducing inequalities—
“Section 13G of the National Health Service Act (duty as to reducing inequalities), is amended by the addition of the following subsections—
‘(2) NHS England must publish guidance about the collection, analysis, reporting and publication of performance data by relevant NHS bodies with respect to factors or indicators relevant to health inequalities.
(3) Relevant NHS bodies must have regard to guidance published by NHS England under this section.
(4) In this section “relevant NHS bodies” means—
(a) NHS England,
(b) integrated care boards,
(c) integrated care partnerships established under section 116ZA of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007,
(d) NHS trusts established under section 25, and
(e) NHS foundation trusts.’”
Amendment 47, in clause 6, page 4, line 11, at end insert—
“(5) In paragraph 1(a) ‘relevant public body’ means a public authority listed under the title ‘Health, social care and social security’ in Part 1 of Schedule 19 to the Equality Act 2010 or an NHS Trust.”
This amendment provides that NHS England resources for supporting or assisting organisations that are providing or planning to provide health services may only be directed to public sector bodies.
Amendment 58, in clause 12, page 8, line 6, at end insert—
“(2) An integrated care board may not—
(a) delegate that function; and
(b) exercise that function to enter into an integrated care provider contract with any body other than a statutory NHS body.
(3) In paragraph (2)(b) an ‘integrated care provider contract’ has the same meaning as in Schedule 3A of the National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) Regulations 2015.”
This amendment is designed to ensure that an organisation carrying out the functions of an ICB on its behalf is a statutory NHS body.
Amendment 59, page 12, line 29 at end insert—
“(3A) Nothing in——
(a) the rules referred to in subsection (1),
(b) this Act, or
(c) any regulations made under this Act
(none) shall entitle any provider of health services to withhold provision of those services from any individual on the basis of the integrated care board to which that individual has been allocated.”
This amendment is to ensure that any providers of health services cannot withhold provision of those services from any individual because of the integrated care board that they have been allocated to.
Amendment 66, in clause 15, page 13, line 44, at end insert—
“(j) palliative care services.”
This amendment adds a requirement for the commissioning of palliative and end of life care services.
Amendment 21, page 14, line 43, at end insert—
“3AA Duty of integrated care boards to commission approved treatments
‘(1) This section applies where—
(a) a treatment has been approved by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, and
(b) an integrated care board has not arranged for the provision of that treatment under section 3 or 3A of this Act, and
(c) a clinician has recommended that treatment for a person for whom that integrated care board has responsibility.
(2) The integrated care board referred to in subsection (1) must arrange for the provision of that treatment to the person for whom it has responsibility.
(3) In subsection (1) “clinician” means a medical professional employed by or acting on behalf of an NHS Trust, NHS Foundation Trust or primary care service from whom the integrated care board has arranged for the provision of services.’”
This amendment would require an integrated care board to arrange for the provision of a NICE-approved treatment to any patient whose NHS clinician has recommended it, even if that treatment is not otherwise available to patients in that ICB area.
Amendment 48, in clause 19, page 16, line 6, leave out “promotes” and insert
“secures the rights set out in”.
This amendment requires ICBs to act to ensure that health services are provided in a way which secures the rights set out in the NHS Constitution.
Amendment 99, page 16, line 34, at end insert—
“(2) In fulfilling their duties under this section, integrated care boards must have particular regard to the need to reduce inequalities between migrant and non-migrant users of health services.”
Amendment 49, page 16, line 37, leave out “promote” and insert “enable”.
This amendment, together with Amendment 50 provides that ICBs enable the involvement of patients, their paid and unpaid carers, and their representatives in decisions relating to the prevention or diagnosis of illness, care or treatment, rather than promoting their involvement.
Amendment 50, page 16, line 37, after “their”, insert “paid and unpaid”.
This amendment, together with the Amendment 49, provides that ICBs enable the involvement of patients, their paid and unpaid carers, and their representatives in decisions relating to the prevention or diagnosis of illness, care or treatment.
Amendment 22, page 17, line 4, at end insert—
“14Z37A Obligation on integrated care boards to ensure appropriate uptake of all NICE approved products according to population need
‘(1) Each integrated care board must promote uptake of all NICE approved medicines and medical devices in accordance with the need of the population it serves.
(2) An integrated care board must, in each financial year, prepare a report on the uptake of all NICE approved medicines and medical devices, including the number of patients that have accessed each product.’”
This amendment would require ICBs to ensure that all NICE approvals are available and promoted to their population, and report on this uptake annually.
Amendment 19, page 17, line 14, at end insert—
“14Z39A Duty to review latest innovations with a view to local commissioning
(1) Integrated care boards must review all new—
(a) medicines,
(b) medical devices, and
(c) other health care solutions that may benefit the local population.
(2) Integrated care boards must—
(d) appoint a dedicated innovation officer to their board, and
(e) develop and maintain a system to keep up to date with medicines and devices innovation and review suitability for patient usage, including engagement with the relevant—
(i) academic health science network, and
(ii) local pharmaceutical committee.”
This amendment would mandate integrated care boards to monitor and assess innovation for the benefit of the local population.
Amendment 16, page 17, line 19, at end insert—
“(2) Each integrated care board must each year prepare, consult on and adopt a research strategy for patient benefit which—
(a) meets local need;
(b) meets national research undertakings.
(3) In developing a strategy under subsection (2), an integrated care board must engage with—
(a) the National Institute for Health Research,
(b) academic health science networks, and
(c) all other relevant regional and national health research organisations.”
This amendment would require ICBs to establish a research strategy and other connected measures.
Amendment 91, page 18, line 18, after first “the” insert “physical and mental”.
This amendment will require Integrated Care Boards to prioritise both the physical and mental health and well-being of the people of England and to work towards the prevention, diagnosis or treatment of both physical and mental illness replicating the parity of esteem duty as introduced in the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
Amendment 92, page 18, line 23, after first “of” insert “physical and mental”.
This amendment will require Integrated Care Boards to prioritise both the physical and mental health and well-being of the people of England and to work towards the prevention, diagnosis or treatment of both physical and mental illness replicating the parity of esteem duty as introduced in the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
Amendment 68, page 18, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) health inequalities.”
This amendment would modify the triple aim to explicitly require integrated care boards to take account of health inequalities when making decisions.
Amendment 17, page 18, line 38, at end insert—
“14Z43A Duty on integrated care boards to consider requests to engage in clinical trials, and patient participation
(1) An integrated care board must consider any request from the organiser of an authorised clinical trial for the ICB to engage in that trial.
(2) If such a request is accepted, the integrated care board must offer the ability to participate in the trial to any patient within their area who is eligible to take part.”
This amendment would require integrated care boards to consider any requests to engage in clinical trials and offer patients the opportunity to participate.
Amendment 20, page 18, line 38, at end insert—
“14Z43A Duty to update formularies to include all NICE-approved products
(1) Within 28 days of any medicine or device receiving market authorisation from NICE, an integrated care board must update its formulary to include that medicine or device.
(2) On receipt of notice of the market authorisation by NICE of any medicine or device, an integrated care board must immediately instruct providers of health and care services commissioned by the board to update their formularies in such a way that all NICE-approved medicines and devices are available to patients on the recommendation of a healthcare practitioner within 28 days of market authorisation.
(3) An integrated care board must report annually all medicines and devices that have been added and removed from their formulary over the previous year.”
This amendment would mandate integrated care boards and healthcare providers (e.g. hospital trusts) to update their formularies to include all NICE-approved medicines or devices within 28 days of market authorisation to ensure they are available for healthcare practitioners (e.g. physician or prescribing pharmacist) to make available for suitable patients.
Amendment 102, page 21, line 25, at end insert—
“(c) set out any steps that the integrated care board proposes to take to address the particular needs of victims of abuse (including domestic abuse and sexual abuse, whether of children or adults).”
This amendment requires the joint forward plan for an integrated care board and its partners to set out any steps it proposes to take to address the particular needs of victims of abuse (including domestic abuse and sexual abuse, whether of children or adults).
Amendment 51, page 22, line 23, leave out
“in a way that they consider to be significant.”
This amendment requires ICBs and partner NHS Trusts and NHS Foundation Trusts to consult on all revisions to their forward plans.
Amendment 52, page 23, line 42, at end add “on its website”.
This amendment is to require capital resource use plans to be made publicly available on the internet.
Amendment 53, page 24, line 22, leave out
“in a way that they consider to be significant”.
The purpose of this amendment is to require all revisions of capital resource use plans to be published.
Amendment 18, page 25, line 6, at end insert—
“(d) explain what research activity it undertook during the year, including
(i) research to meet local health issues, and
(ii) research to support national research projects.
‘(2A) The annual report prepared by the Secretary of State under section 247D of this Act must include a section which reproduces, and comments on, the sections of the annual reports of each integrated care board prepared under paragraph (1)(d).’”
This amendment would require integrated care boards to publish an account of their research activity, and require the report the Secretary of State must prepare and lay before Parliament under section 247D of the National Health Service Act 2006 to include a section which reproduces, and comments on, the research activity of all ICBs.
Amendment 23, page 25, line 14, at end insert—
“14Z56A Report on assessing and meeting parity of physical and mental health outcomes
(1) An integrated care board must annually set out in a report the steps it has taken to fulfil its obligations to deliver parity of esteem between physical and mental health to its local population.
‘(1) The report must set out—
(a) the number of patients presenting with mental health conditions,
(b) the number of patients presenting with physical health conditions,
(c) the number of mental health patients waiting for initial assessment,
(d) the number of physical health patients waiting for initial assessment,
(e) the number of mental health patients waiting for treatment,
(f) the number of physical health patients waiting for treatment,
(g) the number of mental health patients receiving treatment,
(h) the number of physical health patients receiving treatment,
(i) the number of patients readmitted to mental healthcare settings, and
(j) the number of patients readmitted to physical healthcare settings.
(2) The report must set out performance against nationally set standards in both physical and mental health.
(3) Each year the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a consolidated report of all the reports made by integrated care boards under this section, and make a statement to each House of Parliament on the report.’”
This amendment would require an ICB to report on assessing and meeting parity of physical and mental health outcomes.
Amendment 15, in clause 20, page 29, line 20, at end insert—
“(2A) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about representation of particular health, social care, and local interests, clinical fields, and types of health or care provision in the membership of integrated care partnerships.”
This amendment would enable the Secretary of State to make provision about the membership of integrated care partnerships.
Amendment 100, page 29, line 22, at end insert—
“(4) A member of the Integrated Care Partnership may not work for, be the representative of or hold financial interest in any private company delivering or seeking to deliver health and care services or services supporting the health and care sector or producing or seeking to produce health and care products, with the exception of general practitioners.”
This amendment seeks to ensure that Integrated Care Partnerships are made up wholly of representatives from public sector organisations and that private companies are not represented on them.
Amendment 1, page 29, line 45, at end insert—
“(c) fully integrate the promotion of everyday wellbeing, self-care for minor ailments and the management of long-term conditions into local health systems.”
This amendment would ensure that everyday wellbeing, self-care for minor ailment and management of long term conditions are integrated and promoted into local health systems.
Amendment 2, page 30, line 3, after “services” insert
“including services provided by pharmacists for minor ailments”.
This amendment would ensure that integrated care partnerships include in a strategy its views on how health-related services, including provision for self-treatable conditions, are integrated into health and social care services in that area.
Amendment 69, in clause 23, page 35, line 32, at end insert—
“(5) NHS England must publish guidance on the means by which an integrated care board, NHS trust or NHS foundation trust which believes its capital resource limit or revenue resource limit risks compromising patient safety may object to the limit set.”
Amendment 114, in clause 25, page 37, line 27, at end insert—
“(2A) The priorities set by the Secretary of State under subsection (2)(a) must include priorities relating to leadership, the integration of services and the quality and safety of services.”
The Secretary of State has the function of setting priorities for the Care Quality Commission in carrying out assessments in relation to integrated care systems. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to set priorities relating to certain matters.
Amendment 61, in clause 64, page 59, line 27, leave out from beginning to end of line 28.
This amendment is to ensure that a commissioner cannot also be a provider.
Amendment 62, in clause 69, page 63, line 30, leave out “may” and insert “must”.
This amendment makes it a requirement that regulations make provision in relation to the procurement by relevant authorities of (a) health care services for the purposes of the health service in England, and (b) other goods or services that are procured together with those health care services.
Amendment 63, page 63, line 36, leave out “may” and insert “must”.
This amendment makes it a requirement that regulations make provision in relation to (a) general objectives of procurement, and (b) procurement processes.
Amendment 64, page 63, line 39, leave out “may” and insert “must”.
This amendment along with Amendment 65 makes it a requirement that regulations make provision for the purposes of (a) ensuring transparency and fairness in relation to procurement, and (b) ensuring that compliance can be verified, or managing conflicts of interest.
Amendment 65, page 63, line 41, leave out “or” and insert “and”.
This amendment is to make it a requirement for regulations to make provision to ensure both transparency and fairness in relation to procurement.
Amendment 9, page 64, line 1, at end insert—
“(3A) The regulations must provide that—
(a) there is a presumption—
(i) in favour of contracts being awarded to NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts, and
(ii) that integrated care provider contracts will not be awarded to a body other than to an NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust, except for under the provisions of paragraph (b);
(b) if an NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust does not consider that it is able, or does not wish, to provide certain services under a contract, it must publish its reasons;
(c) if paragraph (b) applies, the integrated care board must consult the public if it proposes to award any contract for those services to any body other than an NHS trust or NHS foundation trust;
(d) a consultation under paragraph (c) must—
(i) set out the responses of the integrated care provider to the reasons given by the NHS trust or NHS foundation trust under paragraph (b),
(ii) specify the proposed parties to and the full terms and conditions of the proposed contract, and
(iii) specify that the terms and conditions for staff under the proposed contract must be at least equivalent to NHS terms and conditions.”
This amendment would make NHS trusts and foundation trusts the default providers of NHS services.
Amendment 72, page 64, line 1, at end insert—
“(3A) The regulations must make provision in relation to the procurement of the services referred to in paragraph (1)(a) (other than primary medical services, primary dental services and primary ophthalmology services) that before any contract for a service with an annual value in excess of £5m may be awarded to an organisation that is not an NHS trust or NHS foundation trust—
(a) the business case for the award of the contract must be published;
(b) any responses to the proposal in the business case must be considered and published;
(c) the process for awarding the contract must be open and transparent and non-discriminatory at every stage, including (but not limited to)—
(i) procurement strategy and plan,
(ii) invitation to tender,
(iii) responses to invitations,
(iv) evaluation of tenders,
(v) decision to award, and
(vi) contract awarded;
(d) the process for awarding the contract must demonstrate due regard to the principles established in the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 (S.I.2015/102) or any regulations which may supersede them;
(e) in any case where it is claimed that an emergency justifies an award without the process being used then the responsible body must within 14 days publish the business case for the award of the contract and the record of the decision.”
Amendment 101, in schedule 2, page 125, line 26, at end insert—
“(3) Members of an Integrated Care Board may not work for, be the representative of or hold financial interest in any private company delivering or seeking to deliver health and care services or services supporting the health and care sector or producing or seeking to produce health and care products, with the exception of general practitioners.”
This amendment seeks to ensure that ICBs are made up wholly of representatives from public sector organisations and that private companies, their employees and representatives, and those with financial interests in them, are not represented on ICBs.
Government amendments 25 to 28.
Amendment 76, page 126, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) at least one member nominated by the mental health trust or trusts that provide mental health services within the integrated care board’s area;
(e) at least one member nominated by the Directors of Public Health that serve each local authority within the integrated care board’s area;
(f) at least one member nominated jointly by any NHS trust, NHS foundation trust and local authority that provides social care services within the integrated care board’s area;
(g) at least one member nominated by the trade unions representing the health and social care workforce that serves the integrated care board’s area;
(h) at least one member appointed to represent the voice of patients and carers in the integrated care board’s area.”
Amendment 77, page 126, line 26, at end insert—
“(2A) The constitution must prohibit representatives of GP practices with active Alternative Provider Medical Services contracts from becoming members.”
This amendment would mean that the only GPs able to participate in Integrated Care Boards would be those whose practices are on the standard General Medical Services (GMS) contract.
Amendment 78, page 126, line 26, at end insert—
“(2A) Representatives of private providers of healthcare services, other than general practitioners who hold a contract for the provision of primary medical services in the area, may not be appointed to NHS decision-making boards, integrated care boards, or any place-based committee or sub-committee of the boards.”
Amendment 81, in schedule 2, page 130, line 14, at end insert—
“(7) An integrated care board may enter into an externally financed development agreement in respect of any Local Improvement Finance Trust relevant to the area for which it has responsibility and receive the income related to that agreement.
(8) An integrated care board may enter into an externally financed development agreement in respect of any proposed Local Improvement Finance Trust relevant to the area for which it has responsibility.”
This amendment would enable integrated care boards to participate in existing and future LIFT schemes and to receive the income that would come to the local area from the local investment in such schemes.
Amendment 79, in schedule 3, page 132, line 28, leave out “person” and insert
“general practitioner, GP partnership or social enterprise providing primary medical services”.
This amendment would prevent an integrated care board from entering into or renewing any Alternative Provider Medical Services (APMS) contract.
Amendment 80, page 132, line 32, leave out “person” and insert
“general practitioner, GP partnership or social enterprise providing primary medical services”.
This amendment would prevent NHS England from entering into or renewing any Alternative Provider Medical Services (APMS) contract.
Government amendments 29 and 30.
Edward Argar
New clause 49 has attracted a slightly fuller House than my previous speech did. This additional clause relates to the cap on care costs for charging purposes.
On 7 September, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took the bold step of publishing “Build Back Better: Our Plan for Health and Adult Social Care”. Successive Governments over decades have failed to tackle the reform of social care. This Government are delivering a package—package is the key—of reforms that will not only tackle the wider challenges faced by the adult social care system but reform how social care is funded to ensure that everyone, regardless of where they live or their level of assets, is protected from catastrophic costs. Let me remove all doubt on this issue: no one will lose from these reforms, compared with the system we have now, and the overwhelming majority will win.
Underpinning the reforms set out in the plan is an additional £5.4 billion over the next three years. That funding will end wholly unpredictable care costs and include at least £500 million to support the adult social care workforce. The reforms will make a real difference to the frontline of adult social care, including care users and the dedicated care workforce who have performed heroics throughout the pandemic. A crucial element of the reforms in the plan are the proposals to reform the existing social care charging rules.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way so early in his speech. I am glad to hear him assert that no one will lose out and most people will win. Will he publish an impact assessment that will allow us to look at the detailed figures? As he will be aware, there is much commentary about the distribution of the possible losses, which seems to me to be an extremely important and sensitive issue for the Government to address.
Edward Argar
My right hon. Friend has long taken a close interest in this issue. In a moment, I will come to some of the figures and changes; I hear what he says about giving the House and the other place the information that they need and the aim is to do exactly that.
Edward Argar
I will make a little progress and then give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron).
Currently, one in seven adults over 65 faces care costs of more than £100,000 over their lifetime. We are capping the amount that anyone will be forced to spend on personal care costs in their lifetime at £86,000. That is a seismic and historic change in the way we pay for care in England.
Mr Baron
The Government deserve credit for grasping this nettle, which has evaded Governments of both parties for too long, but he must understand that there is a real cause on the Government Benches in respect of the distribution of the relative losses and the worry that those who are less well off will be hit hardest by the Government’s new clause. Will he address that issue?
Edward Argar
I understand where my hon. Friend and Members from both sides of the House are coming from. This is the first major step forward in the reform of social care that we have seen in decades and must be seen as part of an overall package of changes.
Edward Argar
I would like to make a little progress, if I may.
The reforms will make the existing means test far more generous. We are increasing the upper capital limit from £23,250 to £100,000, which will make masses of people with moderate assets eligible for some state support towards the cost of care earlier, and the lower capital limit will also increase, from £14,250 to £20,000. Below that level, people will contribute only from their income, fully protecting their savings and assets below £20,000.
Over recent days, people have compared our policy proposals to previous, abandoned and never-enacted proposals for reform. I am clear that our proposals will deliver the changes needed where others have failed and see a significant improvement on the system that is in place today.
Edward Argar
We have considered what help people want and when they want it.
Edward Argar
My right hon. Friend rose earlier and I should have taken his intervention then; I hope he will forgive me.
John Redwood
I am grateful to the Minister. Will he confirm that the amount of tax that is going to be raised in the immediate future, in national insurance and then in a separate tax, will make up a relatively small minority of the total costs of public social care? Will he also confirm that none of these measures addresses the issue of the hotel costs that people need to pay when they go into care homes?
Edward Argar
My right hon. Friend is right to highlight that this is talking about personal care costs, so he is right in his point on that.
Did I see the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) rise earlier?
Catherine West
The Minister did indeed. He is being very generous in giving way. A lot of research went into the work by Mr Dilnot some time ago and a very independent assessment was made. Can he explain why, in this clause, he is going away from those recommendations and taking a fresh look at it?
Edward Argar
While the hon. Lady and I do not always agree on everything, she asks a perfectly a reasoned and measured question. I pay tribute to Andrew Dilnot’s work on his report. I just happen to think that, on this point, we diverged from what he proposed and we believe that what we are proposing is the right way forward. We have always intended for the cap to apply to what people personally contribute, rather than on the combination of their personal contribution and that of the state. It will mean that people with fewer chargeable assets meter towards the cap more slowly, because they are paying much less each week than people who are entirely self-funding. This amendment will make it simpler to understand the amount that will go towards the cap and make it fairer.
Edward Argar
If the shadow Secretary of State will forgive me, the hon. Lady has attempted on a number of occasions to get in, so it is only fair that I give way to her.
Barbara Keeley
On the point the Minister is making about the Dilnot proposals and a comparison, let me tell him that the Alzheimer’s Society said that 15% of people with dementia in the north-west would reach the cap under the Government’s proposals, compared with 34% under Dilnot’s proposals. That is a massive amount, and those are the people, with their families, who are paying hundreds of thousands and pounds. That is the comparison.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I do not think that she posed a question, but she made her point clearly, as she always does.
Edward Argar
If I may make a little progress, I will then give way to my former boss, the former Secretary of State, and then, if I have time, to my hon. Friend.
To reiterate, as my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, said on 7 September, nobody—nobody—will be “worse off” than under the current system. Currently, around half of all older adults in care receive some state support for their care costs. This will rise to roughly two thirds under these reforms. This clause would also make a number of minor technical amendments to other sections of the Care Act 2014.
Edward Argar
Before I give way to the right hon. Gentleman, I will give way to the former Secretary of State.
Matt Hancock
Is not the right way to think about this change to consider the proposal in front of us and compare it with the current system? The reason that the Dilnot system, as previously proposed, was never put in place was that there was never a proposal to pay for it, whereas this package is paid for. That is why this Government have been able to deliver a package where no previous Government have been able to do so.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the former Secretary of State. He is absolutely right. We deal in the reality and we should compare the reality of the system that we have in place now with what we have proposed here, which not only moves us forward, but is funded and sustainable.
Sir Robert Neill
Can my hon. Friend help me on two short matters? Can he give us an assurance that there will be no adverse impact on local government financing in relation to this, and that he will talk to the Local Government Association, if necessary, in this regard? Secondly, he says that it is part of a package. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) referred to the impact assessment. Does he agree that it is only fair that, at the very least, we have an impact assessment before the Bill completes its passage through both Houses?
Edward Argar
Yes, of course, as we move through this reform process, it is absolutely right and vital that we work with our partners in the Local Government Association and local authorities of all political complexions. In respect of the impact assessment, I do believe that it is important that we have an impact assessment before this legislation completes its passage through both Houses.
Jonathan Ashworth
I am extremely grateful to the Minister. He is showing his typical courtesy in giving way. Many across the House are puzzled because we recall this document that the Government placed before the House when they asked the House to endorse the national insurance increase. Indeed, many Members did endorse that national insurance increase, even though they were breaking a manifesto commitment. This document actually says that it will introduce a care cap and
“deliver a core recommendation of the independent Dilnot Commission. It will be implemented using legislation already in place under the 2014 Care Act, which introduces the independent Dilnot Commission’s social care charging reform.”
It goes on to describe that as the “new cap”. Why have the Government moved away from the position of just a few months ago that they published ahead of a vote on increasing national insurance and moved to a policy now that disproportionately benefits those with greater assets, which surely cannot be fair?
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State who, while I do not necessarily agree with what he says, as ever puts it courteously. We hold true to what we put in that “Build Back Better” document. It is necessary for this one particular element to see further primary legislation, hence the amendment today.
Edward Argar
I am afraid that I will not give way because I do need to make some progress.
Edward Argar
I have been very generous with my time and to the shadow Front Bench, so forgive me, but no.
Karin Smyth
On that point, will the Minister please give way? Six weeks in Committee and not a mention.
Edward Argar
Forgive me, but no.
To reiterate, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said on 7 September nobody—nobody—will be “worse off” than under the current system. Currently around half of all older adults in care receive some state support. This will rise to roughly two thirds under these reforms. On the minor technical amendments that I made to other sections of the Care Act, I would not wish to belabour each one, but I can reassure the House that those changes will ensure that the legislation works as intended and that everyone who is eligible—
Edward Argar
I want to make a little more progress. I will not give way to one of my hon. Friends or to the hon. Lady at this moment.
This will be done by amending the provisions to clearly describe the information that must be included in a personal budget so that individual contributions count towards the cap at the local authority determined rate, and to ensure that personal budgets and independent personal budgets work as they were originally intended when being used in conjunction with the cap.
Before turning to integrated care boards, let me put it on record that, once again, this must be regarded as part of a package of measures that improves significantly on the current provision in place for those funding care.
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Before we leave the subject of the cap, can he just confirm that this proposal includes the costs of domiciliary care, which had not been included under the original Dilnot proposals that are exercising Labour Members?
Edward Argar
My right hon. Friend is exactly right. I am grateful to him for giving me an opportunity to highlight that this improves in this respect on the Dilnot proposals. I put on record my tribute to Andrew Dilnot for his work, but we believe that this is a better package, and, as he highlighted, a sustainable package from a financial perspective.
Karin Smyth
Will the Minister give way. We have had six weeks in Committee.
Edward Argar
The hon. Lady implores me, saying that after six weeks of having to sit opposite me in Committee, the least I can do is allow her to intervene.
Karin Smyth
Several times in that Committee, I offered to help the Government in a cross-party way. The Minister has been dealt a bad blow here tonight, having to come here and defend this proposal. In those six weeks—I think 21 sessions—not one iota of this proposal was mentioned or brought forward. We all know about bad legislation, rushed legislation, and legislation that does not have the commitment on something so important. I have commended the Government for starting this conversation, but this is a poor legislation move. I am sure that Members here would support the Minister tonight if he were to withdraw this proposal, go back to the Chancellor and ask him to think again. We would all be behind him if he took that opportunity.
Edward Argar
I did wonder whether I would regret that intervention. It was typically courteous, although I have to say that when a Member of the Opposition says that, “We’re here to help you”, I am not always sure. [Interruption.] Of course, when the hon. Lady does it, I know that she is sincere about it. The point I make is that this important change is necessary to deliver on the pledge we have made. It is being introduced on Report. While ICBs and integrated care systems, which we will speak about shortly, are hugely important, I suspect that this matter will dominate the debate in this group on Report. Equally, I suspect that it will be fully debated and scrutinised in the other place.
Paul Bristow
Does the Minister agree that we have been on a journey? The context of this needs to be considered. We are starting a conversation, but other things will come. There will be bumps in the road, but the context that we need to consider is that this is the first Government to tackle the issue of social care in decades. That is the right way to look at this piece of legislation. It should not be looked at in a short-term way.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, a member of the Health and Social Care Committee, for his intervention. He makes the point well that this is another step on the journey, but it is a journey that only this Government have actually got round to starting. Previous Governments have failed to make that progress. The previous Labour Government produced two Green Papers, one Royal Commission, and one spending review and nothing was done, so this Government are making significant progress.
Edward Argar
I have already given way to the hon. Lady, so I will not do so again.
I thank the hon. Member for Bristol South for her words, but the situation is not as she characterises it with my having been dealt a difficult or challenging hand this evening. I am proud to stand here and defend this Government as the first Government to make changes to tackle the social care challenges that this country faces.
Edward Argar
I have given way a number of times and I want to make some progress. I will be winding up the debate, so hon. Members will have the opportunity to come back in then.
Edward Argar
I did give way to the right hon. Gentleman, the shadow Secretary of State, and he is my other constituency neighbour in Leicestershire.
Let me turn to integrated care boards and integrated care partnerships. I remind the House of what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said on Second Reading. These bodies are critical for delivering the key aims of the legislation: reducing bureaucracy; supporting integration and collaboration; and improving accountability. At the heart of the legislation for these bodies is flexibility—giving systems the scope to shape structures according to their needs. This principle is widely supported across the NHS and local government, and we would not want to imperil that, which is why we will be resisting attempts this evening to constrain more tightly how ICBs and ICPs operate. However, we recognise that there are a number of points of clarification that would be helpful to include, and we have tabled a number of amendments to do just that.
Before we reach the meat of this section, there are a number of minor amendments to deal with. First, minor and technical Government amendment 29 will update a reference in the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003 to reflect the changes made to section 99 of the National Health Service Act 2006. Secondly, Government amendment 30 will designate integrated care boards as operators of essential services under the Network and Information Systems Regulations 2018. This will place requirements on ICBs to protect their network and information systems by managing risks to ensure service availability and prevent patient harm.
We expect ICBs to take decisions on IT investment, including on cyber-security, and owning systems—and the associated cyber-risk—that are critical to the provision of healthcare. This includes holding the shared care record. The loss or corruption of data from the shared care record could have clear implications for the delivery of care, and for wider public trust in the digitisation and data-sharing agenda. We must take this risk seriously, and assure ourselves that ICBs are doing so as well.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
May I take the Minister back to new clause 49, very briefly? He is right to point out that some measures that he has brought forward are more generous than previously proposed, but there is no doubt that the way that the cap works means that it is less generous for those with more modest assets. Does he not agree? How can that be fair?
Edward Argar
I simply take my hon. Friend back to my previous point: when compared to the current system, this is a significant improvement and step forward, particularly when taken in the round with the overall package of measures that see the floors go from £23,250 up to £100,000 and from £14,250 up to £20,000. We have to look at this issue in the round, considering all those aspects rather than purely one element alone.
Edward Argar
I would like to move on to ICBs and ICSs, but I suspect that, assuming there is time, my right hon. Friend, who chairs the Treasury Committee, may have the opportunity to intervene during my winding up, or to give a speech during the course of the debate.
Currently, the NIS regulations cover NHS providers in England, rather than commissioners. Government amendment 30 allows us to mitigate cyber-risk in a wider sense, making cyber-security a responsibility for organisations that have duties across the system, and to drive forward a shared and collaborative effort towards reducing the risk to patients. I hope that Government amendments 29 and 30 will be uncontentious and supported on both sides of the House.
Liz Kendall
Is the Minister absolutely sure about what he said in response to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake)—that everybody would be better off under new clause 49 than they are now? Is it not the case, as illustrated by the Health Foundation, that people with very modest homes, worth less than £106,000, will never hit the cap and therefore will not be better off under the Government’s proposed system than they are now?
Edward Argar
I make the point to the hon. Lady that I made in my opening remarks; I said that no one would be worse off and the majority would be better off. That is the point that I make to her: people would not be worse off. If she looks at Hansard, she will see that those were my original remarks when I opened this debate.
Edward Argar
On ICBs, but not on new clause 49. We have moved on and I need to make some progress, because I know that many Members want to speak.
Paula Barker
I thank the Minister for giving way; he has been very generous with his time. Does he agree that if true integration and genuine parity of esteem are to be achieved, it should be written into law that local authorities should have a seat on the ICB?
Edward Argar
Local authorities will have a seat on ICBs and on ICPs. The approach set out in the legislation is appropriate. We have sought throughout for it to be permissive, not prescriptive, and that remains the right approach.
Edward Argar
May I make a little bit of progress? Depending on time, I may then give way to my right hon. Friend. I am conscious that hon. and right hon. Members want to speak—I suspect, primarily on new clause 49.
I turn to Government amendment 25. In doing so, I thank the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), whose birthday it is today—I wish him a happy birthday; I am sure that he can think of nothing that he would prefer to be doing—and the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) for their discussions about this issue. I do not know what view they have reached, but I am grateful for the helpful spirit in which they approached those conversations.
Although service provision—I emphasise the word “provision”—by the independent and voluntary sectors has been an important and valuable feature of the system under successive Governments, it was never the intention for independent providers to sit on integrated care boards and it still is not. We were clear that the conflict of interests provisions addressed the issue, despite misleading and inaccurate claims by some campaigners. However, we are happy to put the matter even further beyond doubt.
Government amendment 25 makes it clear that no one may be appointed to an ICB who would undermine the independence of the NHS, either as a result of their interests in the private healthcare sector or otherwise. We expect this to prevent, for example, directors of private healthcare companies, significant stakeholders of private healthcare companies and lobbyists from sitting on the board of an ICB. It would also prevent anyone with an obvious ideological interest that clearly runs counter to the NHS’s independence from sitting on a board of an ICB.
John Redwood
Will the Minister give us a brief comment on the recruitment of chief executives and senior management to the boards? Will we be using people who already have senior NHS jobs, meaning that there will be no redundancy and transfer costs, or will there be quite a redundancy bill because we want to change personnel?
Edward Argar
I think my right hon. Friend is talking about executive posts. Yes, there will be processes in place to ensure that employment rights are respected. There will be some roles that are completely new and there will be a competition, but I would expect that those with a significant track record and experience would therefore find themselves in a strong position. I will not prejudge any of those individual decisions.
Sir Charles Walker
I am not a right hon. Member, but I am very happy to take the promotion.
I have tabled a number of technical, totemic amendments on parity of esteem that appear on today’s amendment paper and tomorrow’s. They propose taking general references to “health” in the Bill and changing them to “physical and mental health”. I hope that the Minister will receive those amendments with his usual generosity and make the necessary changes over the next two days.
Edward Argar
I take my hon. Friend’s amendments in the spirit in which they are of course intended. I recognise the importance and value that those on both sides of this House put on parity of esteem of mental and physical health. I suspect that we may debate the amendments in subsequent groupings and I look forward to responding then.
We have, in the process of drafting this amendment, heard suggestions that we should simply ban private company employees completely from the boards of ICBs. I am afraid that doing so is not so simple, nor would it achieve the desired result in all cases. In fact, our amendment goes further to underline the importance of NHS independence than would an amendment that focused purely on banning employees of private providers. There are clearly some candidates who would be suitable but may have minor interests in private healthcare. GPs, for example, do provide, and have provided, their excellent knowledge and experience of their patients in guiding commissioning decisions, and some may have private practices as well. Excluding them would be to lose their experience from the NHS, and therefore such an involvement with the private sector would clearly not risk undermining the independence of the NHS.
Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
I draw the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a practising NHS doctor. A number of GPs have, in recent times, sought to group together into confederations of practices, which could create a bloc interest within a local board area. How will that potential conflict of interest in the commissioning and provision of services be addressed by the Government through legislation?
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who knows of what he speaks in terms of the operation of healthcare services. We would not wish to exclude GPs or groups of GPs from being able to participate in decision making. That expertise, as we have seen with clinical commissioning groups, can be hugely valuable. What we have sought to do, in an amendment that is technically worded, for want of a better way of putting it, is to strike the right balance while also ensuring that the additional measures on the constitutions of the ICBs and ICPs have to be approved by NHS England to avoid any obvious conflict of interest. But we are not seeking to avoid GPs being able to operate in that space and sitting on ICBs.
Edward Argar
I would like to make a little progress and then I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been bobbing for some time.
We believe—this may not answer the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I will make a little progress and then if there is time—[Interruption.] Well, we will see. Hope springs eternal. A blanket ban on employees of private companies would also, we fear, be arbitrary. It would not cover the full range of people involved in non-NHS providers, some of whom may not be suitable candidates to sit on ICBs because of their involvement, but not employment, within the private healthcare sector. With the complex corporate structures that providers may have established, a narrow definition in the Bill could be unhelpful and risk not capturing the people we wish to capture.
Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)
I support what my hon. Friend is saying. It would be crazy to exclude primary care because it is effectively a private healthcare business, and therefore what he is saying is enormously important. In support of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), I believe it would be absolutely wrong, looking at my own county, if the mental health trust did not have a presence in the governorship of the ICB. I hope that the Minister will ensure a presence not only for the conventional trusts in hospitals and in primary care but for the mental health trusts, because their role is vital and the integration of services is essential to the delivery of good mental health care.
Edward Argar
My right hon. Friend makes a point that came out in some of the oral evidence sessions on the Bill. Our aim was to create a minimum membership for the ICBs and ICPs, but it is not prescriptive—it can go beyond that—so there is scope for mental health trusts or other health trusts to have seats on those boards. Indeed, Dame Gill Morgan, who runs the integrated care system in Gloucestershire, said that that is exactly what she has done and that she would be surprised if any ICB did not wish to do it. But we wanted to set a de minimis membership to allow for local flexibility.
Clive Efford
We have GP practices that are being privatised now—they are being bought up by private companies, with some foreign interests as well. If the Minister is saying that those companies can have representation on ICBs, we have already seen circumstances where people have tried to redact minutes of meetings, so does this not open up the possibility of private interests being served at these meetings but not being accountable through public scrutiny?
Edward Argar
I entirely understand the point the hon. Gentleman is making. I think he was careful, shall we say, given some litigation that may be going on, not to mention anything specific, but I know what he is talking about. We believe that our amendment will prevent private companies—whatever services they were providing for the NHS—with a significant private interest in this, or their lobbyists, from being able to sit on ICBs. The hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) raised the need for transparency in Committee a number of times, and I suspect we may return to that point. We believe that the current transparency requirements on CCGs that will be carried across are sufficient to ensure transparency and public access to the information they need.
Edward Argar
I am afraid I am about to conclude. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman will come back in with a speech and I will endeavour to pick up on that in the wind-ups.
There are a number of similar amendments, such as amendment 101 in the names of the hon. Members for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I hope they might feel, to some degree, reassured by our amendment and the intent behind it, but that is obviously for them to say. We believe that the Government’s amendment puts beyond doubt what we believe was already entirely clear but were determined to put beyond doubt—that ICBs will not and cannot be controlled in any way by the private sector, as NHS-accountable bodies guided by the NHS constitution and with NHS values at their heart. These principles, I believe, irrespective of other debates we may have this evening, command respect from both sides of this place. I therefore commend the amendments to the House.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
A wide range of issues that are part of this group of amendments demonstrate the cold reality of this Bill. It is a jumble sale of bits and pieces. Of course a Bill can be wide-ranging, but having breadth is not the same as having coherence, or indeed clarity. Such are the issues within scope in this grouping that I will not comment directly on every new clause and amendment but hope to have time to say at least a few words on those emanating from the Opposition Front-Bench team, as well as on any Government new clauses or amendments that we oppose. Some amendments refer to matters that have been dealt with in Committee where we have expressed our views and put forward amendments that failed to persuade the Government. Sadly, we have insufficient time to go over the same ground again, particularly given the rapid shifting of the goalposts we have seen in the past week.
I turn first to integrated care boards, or ICBs, and, more widely, the issue of governance. The question of governance and accountability remains an important matter to us and needs greater clarity than currently appears in the Bill. For Members who may not be familiar with the detail, the Bill proposes yet another reorganisation of the NHS, creating 42 new integrated care systems where decisions on how NHS and care spending will be made. The decision-making bodies within these systems are the ICBs, replacing the CCGs, which fall away into the annals of history alongside the primary care groups, the primary care trusts and all the other permutations that we have seen.
Our discussions on these matters in Committee showed that our disagreements tended to centre around an intention by Government to limit what is in statute and to leave maximum flexibility at local level, as opposed to our desire to ensure that safeguards and protections were in place for those matters we felt were too important to be left out. It is wholly ironic, therefore, that the Bill proclaims, on the one hand, local freedoms and flexibilities, yet on the other proposes sweeping top-down powers for NHS England and the Secretary of State. Our view remains that some flexibility is fine to allow shaping to local needs, but that some key principles need to be put into the Bill to ensure that there are no misunderstandings or unintended consequences.
We know that the genesis of this Bill has been the realisation that increasingly large parts of the NHS were ignoring the 2012 Lansley Act. Along with changes to procurement and pricing, this grouping deals with the main elements of reversing parts of that Act. We could spend all our time referring to what we said 10 years ago, and how the Health and Social Care Act 2012 has proved to be the disaster that we said it would be, but we will spare the Government the “We told you so” lectures, because even those on the Government Benches are now aware that the 2012 Act has been among the worst policy mistakes in the history of the NHS. Whether that damage was worse than the damage done by a decade of austerity remains to be seen, but repairing the damage done by austerity is not for today, as there is little in the Bill to address the ongoing consequences of a decade of underfunding, particularly the wholly appalling waiting times that we now see across the board.
Geraint Davies
Perhaps my hon. Friend can illuminate me. I was going to ask the Minister who owns the assets of the ICBs. Can the ICBs sell some of those assets and rent them back as a service? What constraints are there to stop people on the board enabling that, because they have some strange link to the people buying the assets?
Justin Madders
At the moment, ICBs are not a legal entity, so they do not own anything. When the Bill comes into force, they will effectively take over mainly administrative buildings from the CCGs, and the trust will hold ownership of most of the assets. We hope that there will not be the risks that my hon. Friend outlines, although it is not impossible for ICBs to set up their own trusts at some point in the future.
We do not believe that the question of private providers sitting on the place-based boards can be left open in this way, because this is really about who runs the NHS. There is a complete and utter incompatibility between the aims of private companies and what we say should be the aims of the NHS and the ICBs. I can do no better than refer to the evidence of Dr Chaand Nagpaul from the Bill Committee. He identified the concern perfectly:
“We forget at our peril the added value, the accountability, the loyalty and the good will that the NHS provides. We really do…I am saying that it does matter. Your local acute trust is not there on a 10-year contract, willing to walk away after two years. It is there for your population; it cannot walk away.”––[Official Report, Health and Care Public Bill Committee, 9 September 2021; c. 90, Q113.]
Those final words sum it up perfectly. Put a company on the board, and its interest lasts as long as the contract, and those interests will of course not be the same as the NHS’s anyway. A company’s primary concern is the shareholders, not the patients. With that clear and unanswerable concern about conflicts of interest, we invite the Government to withdraw their amendment and support ours.
We have already had some discussion of who goes on the ICB. Apparently, the answer is not the most appropriate people chosen by an independent external process or individuals directly accountable to the public; the answer is left to guidance that leaves open the risk that voices we think need to be heard will slip through the net. Our amendment 76 deals with that by setting out the requirements for ICB membership. Allocating scarce NHS resources should be robustly debated and will always be political. Tough choices have to be made, so we need people on the ICB who will be there to cover all the necessary interests for the wider good.
If Members look at what amendment 76 suggests, I hope nobody would argue that those interests do not have to have some voice. The public, patients, staff, social care, public health and mental health—which of those can be safely ignored and which has no part to play? As I have already mentioned, there is a major area of uncertainty because of the complete absence of anything that sets out how the much-vaunted place-based commissioning will work. Who will sit at the place-based table is, I am afraid, still completely opaque.
The next major area covered in the Bill is a further deconstruction of Lansley with the removal of compulsory competitive tendering for clinical services. We have seen the NHS proposals for a provider selection regime to replace the regulations under section 75 of the 2012 Act. That is to be regarded as a work in progress, so our amendment 72 covers the issue and would reintroduce some safeguards into how our money is spent. Since its inception, the NHS has always relied on some non-NHS providers, with the model developed for GPs being an obvious example. However, in recent decades there has been an increase in the use of private providers of acute care, most notably in diagnostics and surgery.
To be clear, we on the Opposition Benches believe that the NHS should be the default provider of clinical services. If it is not the only provider, it should be the predominant provider in geographical and services terms. Where a service cannot be provided by a public body because the capability or capacity is not there, there is still the option to go beyond the NHS itself, but that should be a last resort and never a permanent solution. Amendment 72 therefore sets out a clear framework for how we could achieve that. We hope that extra transparency and extra rigour would mean we avoid buying stuff that is unsuitable and sits in container mountains, stuff that does not meet specifications, and stuff made by companies that have no experience, but are owned by friends and family. In short, we would stop the covid crony gravy train.
The use of private sector capacity in the covid emergency turned out to be a farcical failure. It became very clear, very quickly that it was not there to support the NHS; it was there just to make profits. Use of private providers through dodgy deals during the PPE scandal has highlighted the need for greater transparency and greater capacity in the NHS. We can never allow a repeat of what we have seen there. We need the rigour set out in the amendment to be put into legislation, rather than left to guidance. We need to be able to challenge NHS bodies that do not comply, as well as Ministers who try to flout the rules.
I will now deal with new clause 49, saving the best—or more accurately, the worst—until last. Because of how Report stage works, it has fallen to me to express our opposition to this measure, rather than my expert colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), who shares my dismay at what has been produced and how it has been presented to us. Starting with the process, it is wholly wrong to bring such a fundamental change forward as a last-minute addition to this Bill. That means it cannot be debated properly today. There is no impact assessment and, as we have already heard, this change was not discussed in Committee at all. In fact, in 22 Committee sessions spanning some 50 hours, we never once heard mention of this amendment coming forward or discussion on the care cap. Indeed, when this Chamber was busy debating the social care levy, we were beavering away in Committee on the Bill, oblivious to the fact this measure was coming down the track. If the Government cannot even get their decision-making processes integrated, what hope is there for integrating health and social care?
As we know, the aim of the new clause is to remove means-tested benefits from the costs that count towards the care cap. As has been pointed out far and wide by Members from all parts of the House, that change adversely impacts some more than others. It is a wholly regressive measure, to say the least, to give support through means-testing, but then to penalise people later for receiving it in the first place. We will vote against this iniquity, and I hope many Conservative Members will vote with us. They should be used to the Prime Minister’s broken promises by now; this is their chance to make the point that he should stand by what he says.
Mike Amesbury
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is Robin Hood in reverse? I encourage Conservative Members who wax lyrical about levelling up, particularly in the north, to do the right thing.
Justin Madders
My hon. Friend must have sneaked a look at my speech, because I will say later that it is Robin Hood in reverse.
Barbara Keeley
The proposal is grossly unfair. I gave the example earlier that in our region, 15% of people with dementia will reach the cap, whereas 34% would have under the Dilnot proposals. The cap also does not protect working-age adults who are accessing social care, or people with a disability, but Sir Andrew Dilnot’s proposals would have done. It is the second major area in which the proposal is grossly unfair.
Justin Madders
Again, my hon. Friend must have read my speech because I will make that point later. The proposal shows that the Bill is not a plan to fix social care but a very thin attempt to change parts of the system. There are many other elements that clearly need dealing with.
In case Conservative Members need reminding, in the Prime Minister’s first speech on taking office, he promised to,
“fix the crisis in social care once and for all, with a clear plan that we have prepared”.
We are still to see that plan. What we have is a new tax and a broken promise.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend and neighbour is making an excellent speech. We should be talking about a plan for social care, but we are actually talking about a tax on the people who have lost out over the past decade and more from the excessive house price growth in the south compared with other parts of the country. This is a tax that doubles down on inequality, rather than addressing it.
Justin Madders
I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour—I am getting all my neighbours in tonight. She makes a brilliant point: the proposal exacerbates regional inequalities through an unfair tax and is certainly not a plan to fix social care. Hon. Members should look at what my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West has said about what needs to be done to tackle the social care crisis in this country; it is an awful lot more than putting in place a cap that benefits only some people in certain parts of the country.
Not only will the proposal not stop people having to sell their home to pay for their costs, but it will bake in unfairness for a generation. It does nothing for working adults with long-term care needs, who seem to have been completely missed out, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) said. It is not what was promised, but hon. Members do not have to take my word for it. Let us listen to the experts. Age UK says:
“The change the Government has announced makes the overall scheme a lot less helpful to older people with modest assets than anyone had expected. It waters down Sir Andrew Dilnot’s original proposal to save the Government some money, but at the cost of protecting the finances of older home owners…This feels like completely the wrong policy choice and we are extremely disappointed that the Government has made it”.
The King’s Fund says of people with more modest assets that,
“the Prime Minister’s promise that no one need sell their house to pay for care…doesn’t seem to apply to them.”
Instead, it will only “benefit wealthier people”.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend referenced the Prime Minister’s statement that nobody would have to sell their house to pay for social care. I know that my hon. Friend would never seek to call the Prime Minister a liar in this Chamber, but does he wonder, as many hon. Members do, why the Bill appears to be turning the Prime Minister’s words into a lie?
Justin Madders
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention—I think. What I can say here and what I might say outside are not the same, and I do have to finish my speech, so I will leave it there. I am sure that the public will make up their own minds about the veracity or otherwise of comments made by the Prime Minister.
Sir Andrew Dilnot said that the proposals will create a north-south divide, that those with assets of £106,000 will be hardest hit and that anyone with assets under £186,000 will be worse off than under his proposals. According to the Health Foundation, assuming care costs of about £500 a week, those with assets of £150,000 will take a year and a half longer to reach the cap than they would have under the Dilnot proposals, those with assets of £125,000 will take four and a half years longer, and those with assets of under £106,000 will never reach the care cap. Contrary to what the Minister has said, people with assets of £106,000 or less will not benefit from the proposal at all.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. It will be obvious to Members that a large number of colleagues want to contribute to the debate. I urge brevity, so that others can participate. I call the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, Jeremy Hunt.
Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think on this occasion I can oblige you, because I will be very brief. I wish to speak to amendment 114, which may seem a rather technical amendment—as is evidenced by the fact that, out of 650 colleagues, only one has actually signed it, and that is me—but it makes up in quality for what it does not have in quantity. It is about making sure that the new integrated care boards focus their energy on the safety and quality of care of patients. That is very important, because the new integrated care boards will have enormous power. In effect, they will be the local governing bodies of our NHS.
Although the statutory structures matter, what the people running those care boards focus their attention on is incredibly important to all our constituents. The amendment will make sure that when care boards consider their priorities, the things that matter to patients—the safety and quality of care—are put at the very top of their list. We know the way the NHS works. It is the fifth-largest bureaucracy in the world, and there is a plethora of internal NHS—
Jeremy Hunt
I see the Minister wants me to give way. May I make my argument for one moment, and then give way?
There is a plethora of internal NHS targets, there are operational targets and there are financial targets. They often have an excellent purpose, but, as in the case of Mid Staffs and other cases where things went badly wrong, being under a lot of pressure to meet those targets means corners can be cut, and the quality of care experienced by patients can be really damaged. The amendment would make sure that there was discipline in the system, so that whatever pressure NHS managers were under, they were always focused on safety and quality of care.
John Redwood
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for what he did as Secretary of State to stress the importance of this crucial work, and he is not on his own: I support him.
Jeremy Hunt
Before I come to the Minister, I want to say—and I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), who gave me consistent support on this agenda when I was Health Secretary—that, in the public sector, the one system that has seemed to make sure we focus public bodies on our constituents’ priorities is the Ofsted system in schools. We have rolled that out, I think reasonably successfully, to hospitals, GP surgeries and care homes, and this amendment makes that possible for the new integrated care boards. I want to give the Minister a chance to intervene to tell us his reflections on whether this system could work.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. It is not just my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) who supports him on this; I and the Government do, and we are delighted to accept his amendment.
Jeremy Hunt
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am also grateful to the Opposition, who have indicated that they will not oppose the amendment.
Kevin Hollinrake
Now that that one is sorted, would my right hon. Friend offer the House his views on new clause 49?
Jeremy Hunt
I am happy to do that, because I know my hon. Friend has a great interest in social care issues. I feel conflicted by new clause 49. I think that what we will end up with after this measure will be a whole lot better for people on low incomes than what we had, because the means-test threshold will be raised from £23,000 to £100,000, and that is a very significant improvement. However, I have to be honest and say that it is nothing like as progressive as we had hoped, but it is a step forward. My concern when it comes to social care is that our entire debate is focusing on what does and does not contribute to the cap, when the fundamental problem in social care is the core funding to local authorities; that, though not a matter for this Bill, has a direct impact on the care received by our constituents.
I conclude by thanking the Government for their support for amendment 114. I will move it formally later, but I am not expecting to divide the House on it.
Dr Whitford
I initially want to touch on new clause 49. Like other members of the Bill Committee, I sat through hours and hours from September to November, and the Government have suddenly pounced on us with this at the last minute. It is such a complicated new clause, but it has not been interrogated.
It is quite clear that the Government’s original spin that no one would pay more than £86,000 for social care and no one would have to sell their house is completely misleading. All the accommodation costs are on top of this. As has been highlighted in the media and by Members in the Chamber, those with assets of about £100,000 will not see any real gain from this policy, while those sitting on assets of £500,000 or more will keep a lot of their wealth. That means it exacerbates the differences, and penalises those in the north of England and areas where house values are not so high. Basically, it is feeding the frenzy down here of people sitting on over-inflated house prices. As has been said, this is not levelling up, just doubling down.
The cap applies only to personal care, which means things like washing and dressing. That has been provided free in Scotland both within the care home and in home care since 2002. It was expanded in 2011 to provide more hours so that people with greater need could stay at home longer, and it was extended to those under 65 with care needs in April 2019. Scotland is the only UK nation that provides free personal care, and we see it as an investment. It is an investment that we spend 43% more per head on social care in Scotland, but it is an investment in people’s independence and their inclusion in society. The problem is that we spend far too much time talking about social care just as a burden, instead of actually seeing it from the point of view of the user.
The Scottish Government have already added an extra penny on taxation for medium and high earners to cover things such as our wellbeing policies, health or social care, but this Government’s plan to increase national insurance contributions will disproportionately hit low-paid workers and young workers. I would say that the biggest weakness of all, as we know from the original debate on the national insurance change, is that the funding is not going to go to social care initially; it is going to go to the NHS, yet it is social care that is in crisis. This is what is causing the pressure in accident and emergency, because people who are ready to be discharged simply cannot be, as the care support is not there. I do not think that this fixes the problem. There will actually be very little money, because a lot of it is going to go on capping the overall payment. I do not see social care benefiting from this at all, yet it is social care that needs investment more than anything else.
Turning to the main substance of the Bill, which is meant to some extent to unpick the damage and fragmentation of the Health and Social Care Act less than a decade on, I wish to express support for amendments 9 and 72. Many in the NHS, including me, will be glad to see the back of section 75 enforced tendering. Others in the Chamber know that it was the Health and Social Care Act that brought me into politics, as I just could not believe anybody thought what they were doing was a good idea. It is still clear from the pandemic that this Government are absolutely wedded to outsourcing services to private companies, and to the flawed notion that financial competition somehow drives up clinical quality. I am sorry, but that simply is not the case. As the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee has highlighted, we have to focus on safety, on clinical audit, and on peer review if we want to drive up care quality for patients, not just on the money in the system.
The Government appear to have conceded that integrated care boards should be statutory bodies, as health boards have always been in Scotland, but partnership boards can include private providers, such as with Virgin Care in Bath. As the partnership boards will be involved in devising the local strategy for health services, that is likely to lead to a blatant conflict of interest, and I do not see a resolution to that. The NHS simply should be the presumed provider of health services. That is not just, as the shadow Health Minister said, because the NHS is in it for the long term, or for a quick contract, but because the NHS provides the training to nurses and doctors who are the vital workforce of the future. Private providers do not do that; private providers largely live off the NHS. As well as not training staff, where there are major problems or complications, patients inevitably end up in the intensive care unit of an NHS hospital.
In conclusion, for all the size of the Bill, and the scale that the reorganisation will involve for staff in the NHS, who we all know are frankly exhausted, the Government have failed to take the opportunity to repair fully the damage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and to recreate in England a unified public health system, such as the one we are lucky enough still to have in Scotland.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I thank the Minister for the time he gave me to consider my amendments, which we discussed in some detail, and I thank Her Majesty’s Opposition who, very kindly, took some of my amendments through Committee, sadly unsuccessfully. Tonight I hope to have the opportunity myself to explain why these amendments are so important. Before the House thinks, “Oh my goodness, how can we possibly deal with that many clauses and amendments?” let me say that I will endeavour to be brief. I rise to speak to new clause 33, and amendments 21, 22, 19, 16, 17, 20, 18 and 23—but I will be brief.
Let me divide my remarks into four topic areas: domestic abuse, mental health, access to medicines, and research. New clause 33 deals with domestic abuse. That is a horrific crime. It is insidious, it is hidden, and it is on the rise, and during the pandemic it has, sadly, grown from strength to strength. I say, pointedly, that this is a hidden crime, and at the moment, all the teeth are with the police. However, the police can deal only with very evident crime.
Where does domestic abuse first appear? It is in a doctor’s surgery, or at accident and emergency. To date, however, there is no obligation on clinical commissioning groups, integrated care boards or hospitals to come up with a strategy to address that horrific ill. New clause 33 would place a new obligation on ICBs to put in place a proactive strategy to properly manage that issue, and to introduce the education and training that GPs and those in hospitals and A&E need. We must ensure that we no longer find, as in the Safelives report, that those experiencing domestic abuse will have experienced it for three years before it is picked up, despite having already been to visit their GPs almost five times. I do not believe that that is acceptable in a civilised society such as the one we have today.
Five and a half per cent. of adults between 16 and 74 experience such abuse, and the Home Office has determined that the cost of that was £66 billion in 2016-17. Of that, £2.3 billion was the cost to the health service. We know that 23% of those who are at risk attend A&E, and yet nothing happens. I am fortunate that in Devon we have a pilot. My CCG is the only one in the country to have a dedicated individual on the board who specifically oversees and sets a dedicated strategy on this issue. The estimate from the pilot so far reckons that if we spent £450,000 a year on our GPs in Devon, we would get a return of £7 million. But this is not about money; this is about what is the right thing to do. Until this measure is on the statute book, and until there is an obligation to put in place a strategy, this will not change, and I cannot sit here and accept that.
Let me turn to mental health. For many years and in many documents, we have seen a commitment to parity of esteem, but I have been through every statute on the book and at no point is there any reference to the words “parity of esteem for mental health”. If parity of esteem for mental health is not on the statute book, how can we say we believe in it? If it is not on the statute book, how can we possibly measure it? Currently, there are very few measures of inputs or outputs—or, worse, of outcomes —for those going through the mental health system. There are some, but they are minuscule compared with what we have for physical health.
Amendment 23 to clause 19 would require each ICB to compare the inputs and outputs on physical health and mental health. Each ICB would be required to set out: the number of patients presenting with physical symptoms and with mental symptoms; the waiting times for initial assessment in physical health and in mental health; the waiting times for treatment in physical health and in mental health; the number of patients actually receiving treatment in physical health and in mental health; and, finally, reports on readmissions. I know that Ministers do not like that level of detail, but how important is this? Without some very specific measures, it will not happen. What gets measured generally gets done.
Amendment 23 would also require the ICBs to report against the very few national standards that there are. At least then we would see what they were; we would shine a bright light on the fact that there are so few for mental health while there are numerous for physical health. The Secretary of State would be required to consolidate those reports into a national report, which would have to be presented to Parliament—to both the Commons and the Lords. What is there for Ministers not to like about that amendment? What is there for those on the Opposition Benches not to like about it?
Anne Marie Morris
Then I would like to see you wishing to press it to a vote and putting your vote—and your feet—where your mouth is. [Interruption.] I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker; it is not your mouth. I was carried away by an overwhelming desire to get my point across, and I apologise most profoundly.
I turn to access to medicines. Most Members believe, do they not, that medicines that have been approved by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence are available to all our constituents? The reality is that they are not. A medicine may have gone through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and been proved to be safe, and through NICE and been said to be cost-effective, but each CCG—each ICB, as they will be—and hospital trust, and every other NHS body responsible for prescribing, sets its own formulary, and those formularies do not include all NICE drugs. If a medicine is not on the formulary, then no consultant or GP will be able to get reimbursement, so they will not be allowed to prescribe it.
In my constituency, a number of individuals have come to me because they cannot get access to a particular medicine, yet people in another constituency can. I do not believe that a postcode lottery is right. We all talk about the NHS, and health and care, being free at the point of delivery, and we all assume that we can get access, whether to GPs or to hospitals, but I do not think it occurs to most of us—it had not occurred to me—that we cannot necessarily get access to medicines.
My amendment 21 to clause 15 would effectively oblige every ICB, where any individual patient has the advice of their clinician that they should have a particular medicine and it has been approved by NICE, to make provision to ensure that that medicine is provided—perhaps from a neighbouring ICB, taking advantage of the duty to collaborate across ICBs. That would ensure that even if a medicine was not on the formulary in the area of an individual ICB, it could be obtained from another area. Bear in mind that there is no financial loss in doing that, because all NICE-approved drugs are subject to a voluntary pricing agreement between the pharmaceutical companies and NHS England. Under that agreement, x number of drugs will be provided at an agreed cost. Anything above that will be reimbursed by the drug company, so the Government and the NHS will not be out of pocket. Why would that not be a good clause? To provide belt and braces, under amendments 20 and 22, all NICE treatments would automatically be added to all formularies within 28 days of market authorisation and every ICB would be obligated to report.
My last area—I will be very brief, Madam Deputy Speaker—is research, which is so important, as we discovered during the pandemic. I would like to draw the attention of the House to some of the challenges. Some of the anti-viral solutions to coronavirus were late to market because we could not get the clinical trials. Why? Because we could not get access to the records of the patients who had had covid or been diagnosed with covid so that we then had the appropriate cohort to be able to test the anti-virals. It therefore seems very clear that research must be taken on board across every hospital trust and across every ICB. If every ICB and hospital trust had in place a system to ensure research was part of their DNA—that they had to report on what research they were undertaking and had an obligation, if they were asked and had the appropriate cohort, to recruit the patient base so that particular clinical trials could take place—we would get more medicines faster to market. I think most people would say that that was a win.
Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
I declare an interest in that my partner is a clinical research nurse—working in cardiac research—so I completely appreciate and understand exactly where the hon. Lady is coming from. Does she agree that to find patients for studies, often tens of thousands of pounds is spent on radio and online adverts? If her amendment 17 is successful, it could be revolutionary for research in this country.
Anne Marie Morris
I thank the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely right. If we could have this new system, so there was a research strategy and an obligation to consider clinical trial requests and then report, we would be in a very different place.
Madam Deputy Speaker, you have been incredibly indulgent and so have all hon. Members. On that note, having had my time for my four areas, I thank the House for its indulgence and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
The Bill opens the NHS up to big business, allowing private companies a say in the care that patients receive. The Government’s amendment to the make-up of integrated care boards is weak and it fails to rule out the possibility of people with an interest in private health sitting on them. For that reason I tabled amendment 101, which seeks to ensure that ICBs are made up wholly of representatives from public sector organisations and that private companies, their employees and representatives, and those with financial interests in them, are not represented on them. Surely, that is what the public expect from a body that will be responsible for spending huge amounts of public money?
However, the influence of private companies is not just an issue with ICBs. The Bill allows for private companies to play parts in other ways, for example at sub-system level via place-based partnerships and provider collaboratives—they are not actually stated in the Bill, but that is what it means. Guidance by NHS England states very clearly that the Health and Care Bill will enable ICBs to delegate functions to providers, including, for example, devolving budgets to provider collaboratives. There is nothing to stop such partnerships from being open to big business, so the Government’s rhetoric around protecting the independence of ICBs is, frankly, quite meaningless. For all their talk of recognising
“that the involvement of the private sector, in all its forms, in ICBs is a matter of significant concern to Members in the House,”
they have not taken the action needed to stop private companies from influencing decision making. That is why I have put forward amendment 58, which is designed to ensure that any organisation carrying out the functions of an ICB on its behalf is a statutory NHS body.
Although the Government have made some noise about private membership of integrated care boards, they have said with respect to integrated care partnerships that they
“want local areas to be able to appoint members as they think appropriate.”––[Official Report, Health and Care Public Bill Committee, 14 September 2021; c. 258-259.]
That is a matter of great concern. ICPs are required to
“prepare a strategy…setting out how the assessed needs in relation to its area are to be met”.
Integrated care boards must have regard to a strategy drawn up by the ICP, which may well be influenced by private companies that do not have the same objectives as the NHS. I have therefore tabled amendment 100, which would do for ICPs what my amendment 101 would do for ICBs: seek to ensure that they are made up wholly of representatives from public sector organisations, and that private companies are not represented on them.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill has the sense of being an NHS corporate takeover Bill? We have already seen £5 billion in contracts being awarded to private companies through the VIP lane. The Bill opens the door to private corporations sitting on 42 local health boards. That is wrong.
Margaret Greenwood
I thank my right hon. Friend for putting the case so clearly. She hits the nail absolutely on the head: as a result of the Bill, contracts could be handed out to the private sector without the stringent arrangements that one would expect in the awarding of public money. That is a recipe for the kind of cronyism that has become all too familiar, as she says.
I turn to the cap on care costs. I was proud to stand on a manifesto in 2019 that pledged to
“build a comprehensive National Care Service for England”,
to include
“free personal care, beginning with investments to ensure that older people have their personal care needs met, with the ambition to extend this provision to all working-age adults.”
The Conservative manifesto in 2019 did not go that far, but it at least made the guarantee that
“nobody needing care should be forced to sell their home to pay for it.”
We now know that that was a sham—another broken promise by this Government.
Last week, Ministers sneaked out changes to social care plans that would mean that poorer pensioners will not after all be able to count means-tested payments by the state for their care towards a total cap of £86,000 for any individual. The Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), described it as “deeply disappointing” that the new plans were “not as progressive” as those put forward by Andrew Dilnot, the economist who drew up the original plans for a cap on individual contributions. Mr Dilnot has said that the Government’s plan is
“a big change that…finds savings exclusively from the less well-off group.”
A former Conservative Cabinet Minister has urged the Government
“to adopt a different approach”,
while another Conservative MP, a former Under-Secretary of State for Health, has said that
“it will be poorer pensioners who have relatively modest assets that will be most affected by these changes.”
I hope that Members on the Government Benches are listening to those points from Government as well as Opposition Members and will do the right thing. Elderly people deserve better. All Members, including Government Members, have a responsibility to vote these measures down.
When the Prime Minister was discharged from hospital in April 2020, having spent seven nights there, of which three were in intensive care, he said that
“the NHS has saved my life, no question.”
Now he and his Government should save the NHS by withdrawing the Bill. The national health service is this country’s greatest social achievement. It is devastating that this Conservative Government are intent on taking it off us.
Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
I support new clause 49 because I support the action that is needed to make reforms to social care that are long overdue. I have listened carefully to the debate, and it is vital that we understand that the new clause would deliver one part, but not the whole, of the package that was set out by the Government in September. There is no doubt whatever that that package, as a whole, improves the provision of social care, makes the way it is paid for fairer, and removes some injustices that have existed in the system for far too long.
First, the proposal that has been put forward—and I think it is the right proposal—is for a cap on the costs that individuals face in paying for their care. The contributions from the state, even if they are from another part of the state such as local government, are not individuals’ care costs, and it is therefore wrong that they should be contributions towards the cap. The cap has the stated goal of being a cap on the cost of care to an individual, not a cap on the cost that accrues to both the individual and a local authority.
Let us look at what would happen if the new clause were not passed. The provision of care by local authorities is different in different areas, largely according to how well off those local authorities are. A richer council that pays more costs than the statutory minimum as set out in the Care Act 2014 would help local residents to meet the cap sooner than a poorer council that pays only the statutory minimum of care costs, and therefore people who live in poorer areas would take longer to reach the cap, so we would end up, in effect, with a postcode lottery cap meaning that people from poorer areas would tend to have to contribute more. That is wrong, and I am very glad that it is put right by the proposals that are before us today.
Secondly, for those with lower asset values, the rise in the floor in the means test is more important. It is the rise in that floor that makes this system fair. When the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), read out a long list of places with low asset values on average—places where house prices tend to be lower—he listed exactly the areas that will benefit most from the rise in the floor. [Interruption.] We can see what Labour Members are doing. [Interruption.] They are taking a narrow area, and they are taking a specific detail, and they are ignoring all the parts of the package that benefit the people who will benefit from this package as a whole. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. We will not get anywhere if people shout. This is supposed to be a reasonable discussion.
Matt Hancock
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
A further point that is being ignored by those who are trying to make a meal of this new clause is that the cutting of the daily cost offset is much more valuable to those on low incomes than any change in the cap, because the cap, by its nature, is there to protect assets, and those who do not have many assets gain far more benefit from the cut in the daily cost that would otherwise clock up their contributions to the cap much more slowly.
Taken together, these elements make up a package that is beneficial to those on low incomes. It helps to make the system fairer.
My final point on new clause 49 is this. For years and years—including the years when I was Secretary of State, and including the entire 13 years when Labour was in power—nobody fixed the problem of social care. This Government have come forward with a package, and if we pull apart one part of the package, there is a risk to the package as a whole. As Sir Andrew Dilnot said on the radio this morning,
“the whole package is a significant step forward”.
It is always easy in politics, and in life, to say, “I just accept the bits of the package that I like”—and, in the case of the Labour party, to say, “I accept the bits that are very expensive for taxpayers.” Instead, we must look at the package as a whole, which is funded, and which can be delivered, for the first time in several decades, because it hangs together. The Government have presented a whole package, and it is the best possible option in the fiscally constrained times in which we live.
Dr Julian Lewis
I am sorry to be unhelpful to my right hon. Friend, but if this element is so integral to the overall package, why was it not brought forward right at the beginning?
Matt Hancock
This part of the package was described in September, because it was made clear in September that the £86,000 cap was a cap on individual costs. It did not say then that that included the costs that local government may make on someone’s behalf. I think it is a strong Conservative principle that, when we say we are capping the costs that an individual pays, we do not include the costs that another part of the state should pay. I think that that was clear, and more details have now been set out. Most importantly, this is a package that takes things forward in a way that has not been achieved for decades.
Rob Roberts
I do not think anyone across the House would argue that the measures that have been put forward are a significant step forward from where we are. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) mentioned earlier, they are not necessarily what we might have been led to expect. Would my right hon. Friend like to comment on that?
Matt Hancock
I will happily comment on that. In the debate over the past few days, many people have been comparing the package put forward by the Government with the proposals from Sir Andrew Dilnot in 2014-15, but there is a reason those proposals were never enacted and never came into force. It is because they had a huge price tag, and there was no successful debate on how to pay for them. It has been easy to ask for social care reform for the past three decades, but until this Government did it, nobody had come forward with a plan for how to pay for it. We simply cannot magic things out of thin air. If we are a grown-up Government, we have to come forward with a grown-up package, which includes saying how it will be paid for. That is what has happened, and that is why this package hangs together. We should support this new clause, because it is part of that overall funded package.
I want to turn briefly to the measures on integrated care systems. The purpose of the ICSs is to have a more preventive, more flexible and less siloed approach than we have under the current clinical commissioning groups, without removing the grit in the oyster that is the purchaser-provider split and without upsetting the 1948 settlement involving local authorities doing social care and having a national NHS. Amendment 76 in particular contains a lot of suggestions that might seem tempting. There are people who have an important voice in the debate. The problem, as we have seen with existing legislation, is that if we put too much into statute, it is far harder to deliver high-quality services that are integrated on the ground. That is why the Government are right to resist putting too much detail into legislation. However, I do support the change proposed by the Government, which makes it clear that the purpose of ICSs is not to have private providers on the board. I can confirm that, as the Minister said, it never was. Mischievous rumours were put about, some of which have been repeated today, that that was the intention, and I am glad that the Government’s amendment puts that matter beyond doubt.
I am attracted to amendments 89 and 90 and, in another group, amendments 91 to 98 and amendment 23, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker). I was going to say this before I knew that I would be sitting next to him in the debate today, and I hope that the Government will look on these amendments kindly. The parity of esteem between mental and physical health is incredibly important, and I commend the amendments to the House.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. It will be obvious to the House that a lot of people wish to speak and that there are a lot of amendments still to be spoken to. We have only an hour left, so I am going to impose a time limit of four minutes immediately. I apologise to the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) for not giving him notice that he would have only four minutes, but I am sure that he will manage.
Peter Dowd
My amendments 1 and 2 primarily relate to self-care. I acknowledge that self-care is recognised by care professionals as part of the healthcare process, but, like prevention, it should not be an afterthought—a concept that we think invaluable but that we never get around to fully including in our health ecosystem in the way we ought to.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I rise to speak on new clause 49. For 40 years, successive Governments have tried desperately to address this issue, and successive Governments have put it in the “too difficult” pile. It is incredibly expensive, it is hellishly complicated and, to put it simply, there is no silver bullet to address all the concerns surrounding it. That is why I am so proud that this Government have made an attempt to grip this issue.
The fact is that what happens to us in old age is entirely random, and whether we incur catastrophic care costs that wipe out everything we have worked for in our lives is often down to luck. The current system is complex, it is unfair, many people simply do not understand it, and that has been compounded by the fact that successive Governments—nobody is blameless—have used unhelpful language such as “death tax” and “dementia tax”, which have made people terrified of the issue and blown any Government’s attempts to try to solve it out of the water.
Such language strikes fear into people’s hearts about what will happen to us when we are elderly, when we are vulnerable, when we cannot look after ourselves any more. As humans, this is something we do not want to talk about. We do not want to consider it or think about it happening to us; not for us the slow decay, the hellishly expensive degeneration, which affects perhaps four in 10, with the catastrophic amounts of money involved affecting perhaps one in seven. That is why insurance models have never really worked.
The new clause looks to amend the cap on care, basically, where the local authority costs should contribute to the metering towards the cap. I have to be honest: I thought really hard about whether I could support this. Many people, including the brilliant Andrew Dilnot, have pointed out the financial inequalities and some of the geographical inequalities of removing the local authority contribution. As local authority contributions differ by area already—they are much higher in better-off areas—there is already a postcode lottery of care depending on where someone lives. We have to address that. The key thing here is not the cap, but the floor. Those with lower property values will be protected by the floor, not the cap. The reforms increase the threshold above which people must meet the full cost of their care from £23,000 to £100,000—more than four times the limit. The daily living costs limit of £200 per week means that more people will keep more of their income and assets and the package includes domiciliary care, which many others have not done. It is not perfect—it is far from perfect—but everyone who is contributing towards their social care today, and those of us who face the uncertainty of this possible spectre in our future, will be better off than they are now. That is why we have to move forward in a way that is deliverable and that we can finally, for once, get over the finishing line, after 40 years of trying.
There are details that need to be fleshed out. The White Paper just cannot come soon enough and I wish to mention two burning issues in particular. The first is how we support working-age adults, who make up more than half of those who need adult social care. Some people need that care throughout their lives; for others it happens to them unexpectedly. How do we support the people of working age for whom care costs are not paid out of a nest egg, which they might have been able to build up over decades of work? Finally, the biggest issue facing adult social care is the workforce. This job is significantly undervalued. It is too often described as “unskilled”. That drives me mad. These people have unbelievable skills. They have experience and passion, and we entrust our most valuable and precious family members into their care and their hands. Frequently, they just make more money in hospitality or retail. How do the Government create a society that values these heroes for what they are? I look forward to reading the White Paper and seeing how the Government will tackle some of these thorny issues, the most intransigent challenges facing our adult social care system, because for those money alone will not be enough.
Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
I would like to start by talking about social care. The Liberal Democrats have long called for reform to properly integrate health and social care services, but this Bill does not do that. As others have mentioned, it seeks to reorganise parts of the NHS, but it pays lip service only to social care. That is why the Lib Dems think that the Bill should be put on hold until the proper social care reforms are brought forward.
As others have mentioned, it has been months since the Prime Minister announced his plan to fix social care. It is unforgivable that this new clause was sneaked out during the sleaze row last week, in a move that changed the goalposts. The Minister would do well to listen to the unease among his Back Benchers as well as among Opposition Members.
Struggling families now face being hammered by a double whammy of unfair tax rises and the prospect of losing their homes to fund care costs. The right hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock) is no longer in his place, but I noted that he selectively quoted Andrew Dilnot. He did not quote Andrew Dilnot’s comments on new clause 49. Andrew Dilnot said that that proposal was not welcome. He said that he was very disappointed and that this represented “a big change” that
“finds savings exclusively from the less well-off”.
That is two promises from this Tory Government now broken.
There is also no mention in this Bill of the millions of people who are unpaid carers in the UK, even though we know that carers are twice as likely to experience ill health as a result of caring. That is why I have tabled new clause 63 for debate tomorrow. It is supported by Carers UK and it calls for the NHS to ensure that the health and wellbeing of unpaid carers is taken into account when decisions are made concerning the health and care of the person for whom they care. I hope the Government will support it. I know it is grouped for debate tomorrow, but I reference it now to highlight again the fact that the Bill does not present a comprehensive plan to reform social care.
The Bill also represents a massive and unnecessary power grab by the Secretary of State. It is simply wrong for the Government to have the power to abolish arm’s length bodies and approve or reject the chairs of integrated care systems. The public have been rightly outraged at political meddling in covid contracts, and the Government should learn their lesson. We should all be seeking to protect the independence of the NHS.
Vacancies in the NHS and social care are utterly staggering. We know the numbers: 100,000 vacancies in the NHS and more than 120,000 in social care; and 1.5 million people missing out on the care they need. We simply cannot go on like this, with the Government setting their own sporadic targets and constantly missing them. NHS waiting lists are at a record high. Ambulance services received a record number of calls in October. Major A&Es treated more than 1.4 million people in October—the third highest monthly figure on record.
The Bill will do nothing to get those waiting lists down, nothing to recruit the workforce we need, nothing to help people get seen faster and nothing for the millions of unpaid carers. The Government should delay the Bill for a few months and look properly at reforming social care, rather than doing a half-baked job now. But I do not think they will, and that is why the Lib Dems will vote against it.
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Minister for Health earlier as he introduced new clause 49 because the funding of social care has been a huge concern for too many years. The people we represent deserve far more certainty about how their old age will be funded if they require social care.
We have a pension system and a system to support disabled people, but the funding of social care is a real uncertainty. I pay tribute to the Minister for bringing forward these costed proposals to provide some certainty for the future for more people. He is to be commended for being clear that no one will lose out under the proposals and that the majority will be better off because of the issues that we have already gone through—particularly because the means-test threshold is being significantly raised. He can say that with some force because of the more than £5 billion extra being put forward by the Government to fund social care in a sustainable way for the future.
However, there is still clearly some concern, as the Minister can hear from the debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) said, no solution will be perfect, so I was particularly pleased to hear of the Minister’s plans to publish an impact assessment, which will clearly set out the impact of these measures across the board. That is important.
Finally, I want to speak in support of my amendment 102. We all know that the quality of support that we give victims of domestic and sexual abuse is a marker for the health of our society, and it is not just a matter for the NHS. However, the NHS plays a vital part in that support. Amendment 102 requires the joint forward plan for integrated care boards and their partners to properly set out the steps they propose to take to address the needs of victims of domestic abuse—whether domestic violence or sexual abuse, and whether it involves children or adults.
Amendment 102 does not limit the plan to addressing only the victims of domestic abuse; many other types of abuse are equally devastating, and it is permissive enough to allow innovation and improved ways of working to be developed in guidance. I hope that it can be used as a basis for guidance to integrated care boards as part of their general powers.
Amendment 102 is just part of the greater whole. The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill in particular will require action across Government, but the amendment will help to ensure that every part of the state is pulling in the same direction when it comes to issues of domestic and sexual abuse. My amendment is similar to new clause 33, which my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) outlined earlier, but my amendment is more permissive and less prescriptive, so I hope the Government will find it acceptable.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the case she is making. I should also put on the record my gratitude for the work that my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) has done in this policy space and for her proposal. Her Majesty’s Government are happy to accept my right hon. Friend’s amendment 102 on support for victims of domestic abuse.
Mrs Miller
I thank the Minister for his acceptance of my amendment. Many people in all parts of the House will see it as a continuation of this Government’s commitment to tackling the issues of domestic abuse and sexual abuse. I thank him for such a positive acceptance.
Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab)
I rise to speak against the Bill overall but in favour of new clauses 56 and 57, tabled in my name, and those amendments and new clauses tabled by any Member who has sought to change the pernicious outcomes of the Bill.
Our NHS is really one of the best things about this country, but the Bill is the biggest threat to it yet. It rolls out the red carpet for private companies, ramps up the Government’s long-standing attempts to privatise the NHS, and makes easier what we have witnessed over the past 18 months: the awarding of contract after contract without a competitive process, and the rewarding of failing companies with new contracts again and again.
The Bill will be the destruction of our NHS as we know it, and will widen the inequalities that the pandemic has exacerbated. We now have more than 5.7 million people on NHS waiting lists. Of course, that is not solely because of the pandemic—far from it. After the Government won the 2010 election, around 500,000 to 750,000 people were on NHS waiting lists, and the number rose every year before the pandemic, so the waiting lists are the long-term effect of the Conservative policies of underfunding and privatisation.
Waiting lists have now doubled, and our NHS is in danger of toppling over. All the while, health inequality is rising. That is why, with the support of the Health Foundation, I tabled new clause 57, which would compel the NHS to set out data-collection guidelines on health inequalities. We know that health inequalities exist and have seen them play out with the worst consequences, from postcode lotteries to racial disparities, and it is time that we accepted that, collected the proper data—it is a farce that we do not already do so—and set out to make real change.
Since 2010, improvements in life expectancy in England have slowed more than in any other country in Europe, and the gap between rich and poor in respect of the number of years people can expect to live in good health has widened even further. During the pandemic, that was shown by the higher death rates among people who live in more deprived areas and among certain populations, most notably disabled people and people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities. Among people younger than 65, the covid-19 mortality rate was almost four times higher for the 10% living in the most-deprived areas than for those living in the least-deprived areas. This is nothing new; the Marmot reviews have covered that many times.
Earlier this year, the King’s Fund found for the NHS Race and Health Observatory that any success we have in tackling health inequalities is always drowned out by other strains, such as waiting times and other clinical priorities. Put quite simply, we cannot tackle inequalities because this Government have never put equality at the front and centre of their policy making. That makes their so-called levelling-up agenda meaningless.
The Bill will enshrine in law the new so-called triple aim to promote various different factors, but the Government are so short-sighted that they have declined to incorporate health inequalities into the triple aim. What a complete missed opportunity that is—or a clear indication that the Government really could not care less. Before anybody says any different, and that the NHS has other means of doing that, we need to look at the state of the outcomes, because what is happening is clearly not working.
The Government continuously and repeatedly fail to accept examples of institutional discrimination, let alone meet their duties under equalities law. We recently heard about how the issues in respect of oximeters and dark skin will have contributed to worse outcomes. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has called for a review of gender and race bias in medical equipment; quite frankly, that is groundbreaking—all we seem to do is have reviews. We would already have these types of policies had we just heeded past Government reviews and looked at the equality impact assessments. There is no excuse for the Government to keep ignoring the requirement that is already set out in law for them to meet their equalities duties to people right across this country.
Sir Charles Walker
I caught your eye half a minute ago, Madam Deputy Speaker, and you indicated to me with that look that I was next. My heart rate quickened. I am always nervous when I speak in this place because we do really important stuff here—all of us do—and this is an important Bill.
Before the Health and Social Care Bill became an Act in 2012, it was amended by the Conservative Government. It was amended in pursuit of parity of esteem. The Coalition Government changed general references to health to “physical health and mental health”, which was not a courageous thing to do—it was entirely the right thing to do.
I have tabled a series of amendments—10, if I have counted them correctly—for debate over the next two days. They ask the Government to change all general references to health to “mental health and physical health”. It is a call to arms. These changes are not just totemic, but hugely important. Over the next few years, we need to recruit 9,000 more mental health nurses to look after our constituents and more than 800 new psychiatrists, and we need to give all organisations charged with delivering healthcare that nudge, that push, that call to arms that they need to make these important things happen. We also need to send another message from this place—on top of all the other messages that we have sent over the past nine years—that we believe that there is no physical health without good mental health, and that good mental health means good physical health.
I am looking at the Minister because he has made a couple of staggering interventions on colleagues tonight. Colleagues in full flow, prostrating themselves at the feet of Government, have suddenly been rewarded with his stylish, charming intervention of, “The Government have heard your cries, and they shall act on them.” I looked at the joy that spread across the face of my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), and across the face of my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), the former Secretary of State, who spoke before me. I look at the support I have from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock), the most recent former Secretary of State—there are a few of them—and from a former Prime Minister. May I ask the Minister to make one of those generous interventions on me this evening? I am still here. I want to sit down, but if he is not going to make that generous intervention right now, I shall be back tomorrow. I shall also be travelling up to the other place and knocking on its door to make sure that these amendments are tabled there, so that, eventually, we get our way.
Karin Smyth
I came to this place largely on the back of the disastrous Lansley Act, and I am pleased to see it banished to the dustbin of history, which is what this Bill essentially does. It also banishes to the academic shelves that example of how not to make policy. Lansley took a sledgehammer to our work in primary care trusts, to partnerships, to morale, and to our capacity to forward-plan. Along with the austerity funding that came with it, the Act directly led to the poor state in which we entered the pandemic, and that must be front and centre of any review of the pandemic.
This Bill is a seminal point in the history of the NHS, because it banishes again to the history books experimental competition as an organising principle and a driver of efficiency. The key issue is what replaces it. Now we have in its place local cartels dominated by hospital trusts, and the supreme power of the Secretary of State to interfere in all local decisions. There is no power here for local elected representatives, no power for primary care or community care or mental health, no voice for patients, no voice for the public, and no voice for the taxpayer, who is asked to pay ever more. As we move to an ever more costly health service, accountability and transparency of our NHS in this role has to be at front and centre in order to bring people with us on that journey of paying more.
I have tabled two amendments to this part of the Bill. One is on the need for the local boards to be cognisant of palliative and end-of-life care. The other is on local improvement finance trusts, the local public private sector bodies introduced under the last Labour Government that are instrumental in providing good primary and community care estate—something that this Government are allowing to wither on the vine. My own South Bristol Community Hospital needs more support through these trusts in order to thrive, so that people have decent, good-quality estate from which to receive their care.
I also draw hon. Members’ attention to my new clause 23 on a good governance commission, which will be discussed tomorrow. I genuinely offer it as a helpful way forward. If it were enacted by the Government, it would avoid the cronyism that we have become used to, and would ensure that local bodies are more democratically accountable to their populations and more cognisant of the needs of their local populations. It would ensure that the people leading the local bodies are fit and proper, meet basic criteria regarding what is expected of them and have crucial accountability to local populations. It is akin to the Appointments Commission, which was abolished in the abolition of the quangos; that was a huge mistake. If the Government took notice of it, the new clause would really help us to get around some of the real concerns about how our local health services are governed.
Let me finally address new clause 49 on social care. It is a disappointment and unexpected. We had six weeks in Committee. In that time, we could have looked carefully at the proposal and shone a bit of light on it. The right hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock), who is no longer in his place, clearly tried to say what this provision is really about, in that one part of the state should not be subsidising another part of the state. He started to say that that was a true Conservative principle and he was absolutely right. This provision will remind people who are in receipt of benefits that they are in receipt of those benefits, and that anything they may have built up should not be counted towards their future. It is a punitive property tax. I am old enough to remember what happened to the last Conservative Government who introduced a regressive property tax; this Government really ought to think again.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in that I am married to an NHS doctor, who is employed by a hospital trust that serves my constituency.
Let me turn first to new clause 49. Those of us who have been in the world of local government for a long time will have seen the attempts by Governments of various parties to address the financial settlement around social care. I chaired a social services committee that pushed through the charging policies introduced by the last Labour Government in an attempt to address these costs. I also chaired a social services committee that had to balance the demands of the fair access criteria, and saw the last Labour Government drive a coach and horses through a lot of local provision.
I recognise that we should all seek to ask questions of Governments about how we address in particular the impact on working-age adults. In response to the people asking whether we are proud of what we are here to do tonight, I would say that we should be proud of the fact that we are willing to take what are sometimes difficult decisions to ensure that we balance the books and have a sustainable financial settlement that supports social care for our constituents. It is too late for my two grandparents, who went through the process and saw very modest assets consumed by the cost of long-term care, but I welcome the fact that my constituents, and people up and down the country, will benefit from what this Government are seeking to achieve.
I will move on, briefly, to new clause 55, which addresses the responsibilities for ICSs regarding the provision of services and planning for services for our youngest children. My right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) made a helpful intervention, in which he pointed out the effectiveness of Ofsted-style regulation in ensuring the quality of provision at a local level.
We had an excellent debate in the Chamber just a few weeks ago, discussing the work done by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom), which was reflected in the budgetary decisions that were brought forward previously. Having had that debate, it seems clear to me that in tabling an amendment supported by more than 70 organisations in the field of children’s care, we have an opportunity—one which was debated and touched on through various assurances from Ministers in Committee. It is an opportunity to ensure the right level of rigour and accountability in what we ask of ICSs, so that we can make sure that our youngest children, babies, neonatal care, and indeed young people up to the age of 25 who are already covered by statutory provisions in respect of special educational needs and care leaving, are appropriately covered.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
I am going to reduce the time limit to three minutes in the hope that as many people as possible can get in.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
The Health and Care Bill is deeply problematic. I want to focus on two issues that, when combined, mean that it is a complete disaster. It not only makes it easier for private health giants to profit from the national health service; it also makes a charter for corruption because it opens the door to even greater private sector involvement in our NHS. That is why this Bill should really be called the NHS corporate takeover Bill. For example, it allows private corporations to sit on health boards, which make critical decisions about NHS budgets and services, and the Government’s amendment 25 does not go nearly far enough.
Even before this Bill, an unbelievable £100 billion has gone to non-NHS providers of healthcare over the past decade alone, and earlier this year half a million patients have had their GP services quietly passed into the hands of a US health insurance giant. This Bill would lock in yet more privatisation in future, with even less scrutiny, because it means less transparency. It means private health giants getting an even bigger slice of the action with less scrutiny.
Dr Poulter
I draw the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a practising NHS doctor. On the issue of private healthcare provision, the hon. Gentleman will recognise that GPs are in fact small businesses in their own right, and some of them quite large businesses. How does he equate the role of the GP as a small business in the context of his concerns about private healthcare?
Richard Burgon
We are not seeking to wage war on GPs; we want to support GPs and properly resource them. We see so many GPs retiring and not being replaced. It is this Government who are waging war on our NHS with this further Americanisation of our NHS. It is a dangerous cocktail where the dodgy contracts we have seen throughout covid risk becoming the norm. The billions squandered on test and trace should serve as a warning of what the Government could do to the whole of our NHS.
There is a sleight of hand going on with this Bill. It is true that under the Bill NHS bodies will no longer have to put services out to competitive tender to the private sector. Such tendering to the private sector was made a requirement under section 75 of the coalition Government’s Health and Social Care Act 2012. It was a shameful Act and its scrapping has long been demanded by those opposed to privatisation of our national health service. However, the change in this Bill does not reverse privatisation, because without making the NHS the default provider, that simply means that contracts can not only still go to private healthcare corporations but can do so without other bids having to have been considered.
To prevent all this, I tabled amendment 9, which I want to put to a vote—unless of course the Government accept it—because it establishes the NHS as the default option. [Interruption.] Conservative Members groan, but the only reason for people not to support my amendment is if they do not believe in the NHS not moving to a privatised insurance model. Why else would people object to the NHS being the default provider of healthcare? The British Medical Association supports it, so the Tory groans are groans against the position of the British Medical Association. Unison supports it, so the Tory groans are groans against the voices of those who work in the NHS—for most of whom, if they need to have more than one job, it is because they do not get paid enough, not because they are trying to get their own snouts in the trough. I will be voting against the whole Bill, but if the Government refuse to accept amendment 9 to make the NHS the default provider, that shows what the Government of the party that objected to the foundation of the NHS in the first place are really up to, despite all the warm words.
Mel Stride
I rise to speak to new clause 49. In doing so, and whatever its merits or otherwise, it is worth reflecting on the comments made by the Minister that we are at least here this evening looking at a part of a process that will lead to some progress in meeting social care costs going forward and removing the catastrophic risk that has hung above the heads of all our constituents up and down the country: that their healthcare costs may end up costing them all of their assets. We are also here having taken the tough decisions around having raised taxes to fund those arrangements.
I have problems with new clause 49. It seems to me that to make good law in this place, first, we need time to consider the matters put before us and secondly, we need the appropriate information upon which to take those decisions. On both those points, I have real concerns about how new clause 49 has been brought forward. The first we heard of it was not in Committee or in September when the general measures were put forward, including the taxation measures on which we all divided and voted, but on Wednesday evening, when the amendment was tabled.
It was fortuitous that the Treasury Committee happened to have Sir Andrew Dilnot before us the very next day. We were able to discuss many of the issues inherent in new clause 49. A number of issues were raised, to which only the Government have the answers. One of them has been put forward powerfully by speaker after speaker tonight, which is: what are the impact assessments associated with these measures? I wrote to the Chancellor immediately after that session and asked him for some impact assessments, including geographical impact assessments, of which we have had none.
It seems that the only information we have had was released by the Department of Health and Social Care on Friday night, in a document called “Adult social care charging reform: analysis”. I am very short of time, which is a shame, but there is, for example, a chart of a 10-year care journey that looks at individuals with different asset levels. While it is true, as my hon. Friend the Minister said, that these arrangements, even with new clause 49, are better for almost every level of wealth than under the status quo, it is not the case that everybody is better off compared with the measures brought forward in September.
Alison McGovern
The right hon. Gentleman gets to the heart of the matter, which is what people will get, compared with what they were promised. Is that not the heart of this matter?
Mel Stride
I think the heart of the matter is that we have to be clear and wide-eyed about what this change will do. Yes, it is true that it will leave us in a better position than the status quo, but it is not the case that it will leave those who are less well-off in a better position than if new clause 49 were not passed by the House. For those with assets of about £106,000, by my read of this graph, about 59% of their assets would be lost on average under the original proposals. Under the amended proposals, that figure would rise to 70%. When it comes to those who would be better off as a consequence of new clause 49, many are the better off, because they benefit from the changes being made to daily living costs, to which my hon. Friend the Minister referred.
I am out of time, but I believe that these measures should have been better ventilated in this House—certainly in Committee, if not earlier. We would then have had better information and more time in which to make these important judgments.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I want to speak briefly to amendment 15, which focuses on the membership of integrated care partnerships—the bodies that will be responsible for developing plans to address the health and care needs of local populations. The amendment would enable the Secretary of State to make specific provisions ensuring the representation of particular areas of healthcare on ICPs via secondary legislation.
In particular, I am concerned about having a strong voice for women’s health in ICPs. I also mention in passing the need for other groups to be represented, such as carers, in an ICP area. As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on sexual and reproductive health, I have seen how the experience of women in relation to their healthcare is often an afterthought in a fragmented health system, as in the case of the vaginal mesh scandal; the recent debate about pain during the insertion of intrauterine devices, a form of contraception; maternity provision; and cuts to contraceptive services.
The amendment would ensure that the issue of representation was considered by the Government. It has strong support from the medical bodies in this area, including the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, as well as in other areas of healthcare, such as childhood cancer, and, as previously mentioned, carers groups.
It is important to protect the independence of ICPs and ensure that they can set a strategy that effectively meets local needs, but there is also a need to ensure that women’s voices are not left behind in the decision making. Without this amendment, it cannot be assumed that those voices will be heard on all ICPs. I hope that the Government will consider the purpose of the amendment, which is to strengthen the Bill.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
There is much to be positive about in relation to the recent history of the national health service. NHS England research indicates that the outcomes for most major conditions are significantly better than they were 10 years ago, and the NHS is seeing more patients and delivering more tests, treatments and operations than at any time in its 73-year history—millions more than 10 years ago when the Conservatives returned to power.
To reassure those concerned by some of the campaigns around the Bill, I emphasise that this Conservative Government are committed to NHS values. We are delivering the biggest ever cash increase in NHS funding. It is just plain wrong to accuse the Government of trying to privatise the NHS. In fact, it was the last Labour Government who pushed competition and private sector involvement, including many private finance initiative contracts that proved to be unwise and massively expensive. If anything, the Bill takes the NHS in the other direction by reducing the role for competition and increasing the scope for co-operation.
At the Bill’s core are the integrated care systems considered by this group of amendments. Its provisions on ICSs enjoy considerable support from within the NHS and build on the NHS’s own proposals for reform to make it less bureaucratic and more accountable and to enable it to be more integrated with other local service providers, such as councils.
I will not be backing the amendments in this group except those tabled by the Government. I welcome Government amendment 25 for the clarity that it provides to ensure that appointments to ICBs will not in any way jeopardise their independence. By dismantling elements of the complex system for compulsory tendering of services, we will free up time and resources in the NHS and remove barriers to local co-operation so that we can improve patient care.
We all recognise that ever-increasing healthcare needs place great pressure on the NHS, which will rise in years to come as more of us become frail and need extra care. I ask the Minister, in his response, to emphasise how we will train, recruit and retain the professionals we need to deliver NHS services. Record numbers of doctors and nurses are working in our NHS, and I pay tribute to each and every one, but it is crucial to step up the numbers, especially of GPs. GPs in my constituency are overstretched and we need more of them. That needs to be a priority for the Government.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Members will appreciate that I have had to give precedence to people who have amendments in their names on the Order Paper, so not everyone else will have a chance to speak this evening.
Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
In the interests of time, I will just speak to my amendment 99 and new clause 57 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy).
The Government often talk the talk on health inequalities but fail to walk the walk. New clause 57 sets out a requirement that NHS England must publish guidance in relation to health inequalities, which I wholeheartedly support. My amendment 99 seeks to put in provisions to reduce inequalities between non-migrant and migrant users of health services. Campaigners and experts have argued that the pandemic has shown more tangible action is needed to tackle health inequalities. The increased risks of those on lower incomes and black, Asian and minority ethnic communities catching and dying from covid-19 have been well documented, yet the provisions outlined in the Bill will likely make the situation much worse.
Dame Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
This Bill can really help support giving every baby the best start for life.
First, new clause 55, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds), would require the Secretary of State to publish guidance on how integrated care systems should meet the needs specifically of babies. “The Best Start for Life” report, published in March, calls for every local area to publish a seamless start for life offer for every new family. That must include midwifery, health visiting, mental health support and targeted services such as couple counselling, debt advice and smoking cessation. Each of these services is currently provided from silos within the public, private and civic sectors, so properly integrating them is no small task. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to ensure there is very clear guidance to every local area on how it should co-ordinate its support for babies.
I also want to support amendments 91 and 92, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), which call for parity of esteem between mental and physical health. Mental health support for families who are struggling in that critical early period is vital. The London School of Economics has assessed that perinatal depression, anxiety and psychosis carry a total long-term cost to society of about £8.1 billion for each one-year cohort of births in the UK. Prevention is not only kinder but so much cheaper than cure.
Finally, I would like to support amendment 102, from my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), which calls for integrated care boards to provide clarity about their plans to tackle domestic violence. I am delighted that the Minister has already agreed to accept it. Analysis by the WAVE Trust indicates that up to 30% of domestic violence begins during pregnancy. The WAVE Trust highlights the crucial nature of experiences in the period of conception to the age of three in the formation of seriously violent personalities, largely because of the sensitive nature of the infant brain in those formative years. Domestic violence within a family is incredibly damaging to the emotional development of a baby, and I encourage my hon. Friend the Minister to ensure that plans for tackling domestic violence cover not just relations between partners, but reducing the impact on babies.
Madam Deputy Speaker, you may have heard me speak in this place before about giving every baby the best start for life, and I keep doing so because I am convinced that, if we invest in the 1,001 critical days, we really will transform our society for the better. It is in the period from conception to the age of two that the building blocks for lifelong physical and emotional health are laid down.
Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
I was not expecting to be called, Madam Deputy Speaker, but here we are. I want to tell a little story about my dad. My dad often rings me and tells me the things I should say in Parliament—I am not entirely sure any of you are quite ready for it, but I want to tell a story about my dad. He was born in the war, and they were given a council house by the Attlee Government—my dad could lecture us on it for weeks! He was given a council house, which his very Conservative parents bought in the 1980s. My granny, unbelievably—a lovely, generous woman—was a massive Thatcherite. She bought her council house in the 1980s, and that council house stands in my constituency. It is worth around £120,000.
My dad went on to get an education—a free education—and he moved into an area of Birmingham that was not very trendy at the time. He stayed there, I was born there, and my brothers lived there. All through our lives we watched that area get a little bit trendier, and the price of my dad’s house, which he bought for £30,000, went up and up and up. He didn’t particularly do much work—he likes to woodwork in his garage, but he has not done much. His house is probably worth around £700,000 now, and it was £30,000 when he bought it.
If my dad were here today, what he would say to hon. Members, and what he will almost certainly say to me, because he watches it all, lurking on Twitter, is that he does not deserve to keep his wealth for his children at any greater rate than the people who live in the council house that his parents bought on Frodesley Road in Sheldon. Yet today, the people who live in my constituency and the council house that my granny bought, to try to get a better life, will subsidise the care of my father, who has a £700,000 house that I do not need to inherit. I’m all right. I’ve got quite a good job. It is totally unacceptable that that is the situation we are putting almost all my constituents in, compared with constituents in Chipping Norton, for example, or the constituents of other hon. Members who have stood up and spoken. My constituents will largely be left with nothing. They will not be grateful.
Edward Argar
I am conscious of time, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I will try to cover some of the main themes that have emerged from today’s debate. I am grateful for the debate we have had today. The vast majority of what is contained in the Bill is exactly what the NHS said that it wanted and needed, and it is the right legislation being brought forward at the right time, to drive forward those priorities highlighted by the NHS in its 2019 consultation. The Bill drives forward integration not only within the local NHS within a region, but also greater integration with a local authority. It provides the foundations on which we can continue to build, as we move forward with greater integration of health and social care services that are designed to work around the individual, rather than in institutional silos.
Despite misleading claims by campaigners—and, indeed, by some Opposition Members—the Bill does not privatise the NHS. The NHS will always be free at the point of delivery. It has been in the hands of the Conservative party longer than it has been in the hands of any other party, and the Conservative party has put in place record investment in terms of resources in our NHS. What we propose in the Bill continues to build on that. Government Amendment 25 on ICBs is clear: ICBs are NHS bodies. They have always been NHS bodies in our proposals, and we have put in place provisions regarding conflicts of interest. Just to make sure, and given the misleading claims about private involvement, new clause 25 puts beyond doubt that ICBs are NHS bodies and must act in the best interests of the NHS. It is an amendment that is much stronger and much more effectively drafted than the alternatives put forward by the Opposition, because we believe in putting this question beyond doubt.
On the ICBs and ICPs, we have sought to be permissive rather than prescriptive, giving those local systems, within a national framework, the flexibility to deliver what they need to deliver for their local areas, which they know best.
I have been happy to accept amendments 102 and 114. I will continue to reflect on the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker); in the nicest possible way, I suspect that—rightly—he will not go away. The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), set out very clearly the case for his amendment 114, which I was happy to accept, and the importance it places on patient safety.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom) has done a huge amount of work in this space—I pay tribute to her—and she is right: we will look very carefully in the statutory guidance at how we can emphasise that. I fear that my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) was not in her seat when I paid tribute to the work that she had done previously, but I put that on the record too.
On new clause 49, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), a distinguished former Care Minister, made the point extremely well that this is a significant improvement and step forward on where we currently are in respect of tackling the social care challenge.
Edward Argar
I am afraid I will not, because I have only a couple of minutes in which to try to address these points, and I did give way a dozen or so times in my opening remarks.
Equally, I recognise, as always in this House, the strength and genuine sincerity of the views and the points put by hon. Members on both sides, genuinely highlighting and wishing to explore certain aspects of new clause 49 to understand exactly what it does and how it works. I have complete respect for the strength of those views.
I believe that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock) set out very clearly, this is a significant step forward. It will make a huge difference, and it must be treated as part of a package of measures rather than in isolation. As he quite rightly highlighted, we must look at the floors as well as the cap, at the support that is available, and at the increases in those floors from £14,250 to £20,000 and up to £100,000.
Edward Argar
I am afraid I will not, because I literally have only one minute, and I did give way multiple times in my opening remarks.
I believe that the measures in this Bill, which we have debated with these amendments today, give the NHS what it needs to further integrate to deliver the local services it needs and, crucially, move us a huge step forward in tackling the challenge posed by social care for future generations.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Amendment 102 has been selected for separate decision. I call Mrs Maria Miller to move the amendment formally.
The right hon. Lady is not here, but I understand that the Minister can move the amendment formally.
Clause 19
General functions
Amendment made: 102, in page 21, line 25, at end insert—
“(c) set out any steps that the integrated care board proposes to take to address the particular needs of victims of abuse (including domestic abuse and sexual abuse, whether of children or adults).”—(Edward Argar.)
This amendment requires the joint forward plan for an integrated care board and its partners to set out any steps it proposes to take to address the particular needs of victims of abuse (including domestic abuse and sexual abuse, whether of children or adults).
Madam Deputy Speaker
There is great excitement on the other side of the House, but there is no doubt about the procedure. As the Minister had already indicated his intention to accept amendment 102, it was perfectly in order for him to move it.
Clause 25
Care Quality Commission reviews etc of integrated care system
Amendment made: 114, page 37, line 27, at end insert—
“(2A) The priorities set by the Secretary of State under subsection (2)(a) must include priorities relating to leadership, the integration of services and the quality and safety of services.”—(Jeremy Hunt.)
The Secretary of State has the function of setting priorities for the Care Quality Commission in carrying out assessments in relation to integrated care systems. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to set priorities relating to certain matters.
Clause 69
Procurement regulations
Amendment proposed: 72, in page 64, line 1, at end insert—
“(3A) The regulations must make provision in relation to the procurement of the services referred to in paragraph (1)(a) (other than primary medical services, primary dental services and primary ophthalmology services) that before any contract for a service with an annual value in excess of £5m may be awarded to an organisation that is not an NHS trust or NHS foundation trust—
(a) the business case for the award of the contract must be published;
(b) any responses to the proposal in the business case must be considered and published;
(c) the process for awarding the contract must be open and transparent and non-discriminatory at every stage, including (but not limited to)—
(i) procurement strategy and plan,
(ii) invitation to tender,
(iii) responses to invitations,
(iv) evaluation of tenders,
(v) decision to award, and
(vi) contract awarded;
(d) the process for awarding the contract must demonstrate due regard to the principles established in the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 (S.I.2015/102) or any regulations which may supersede them;
(e) in any case where it is claimed that an emergency justifies an award without the process being used then the responsible body must within 14 days publish the business case for the award of the contract and the record of the decision.”—(Justin Madders.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Business without Debate
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 3 and 4 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Value Added Tax
That the Value Added Tax (Distance Selling and Miscellaneous Amendments No. 2) Regulations 2021 (SI, 2021, No. 1165), dated 25 October 2021, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.
Customs
That the Customs Tariff (Establishment and Suspension of Import Duty) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (SI, 2021, No. 1191), dated 26 October, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28 October, be approved.—(Mrs Andrea Jenkyns.)
Question agreed to.
BioYorkshire and the Bio-Economy
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
COP26 started a conversation that should have taken place decades previously. It did not end where our fragile planet demanded, but, with 1.5° now in critical care, it failed to grasp the scale of the crisis and it fell short of the demands required to safeguard against our planet burning, melting, flooding and people dying.
COP’s failure must be our call to revive the hope that our planet demands more acutely than ever before and that the global south depends on. It starts here.
COP26 said there is no time for delay, no time to prevaricate or put off, no time to postpone. When opportunity comes to accelerate our path to net zero, to cut carbon, to protect biodiversity, to end the plastic endemic, to enable a carbon negative future and to put investment in sustainability, it must be grasped. Delay has been our failure. To take action is our hope.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am so grateful to you for allowing this debate tonight, on the heels of COP26—at the start of this new conversation, to give hope to our planet and to give hope to generations to come. Delay and prevarication are behind us; that era is over. The talking is done. The action is needed.
Tonight, that action is to institute BioYorkshire. As the CBI has said today, this is the very kind of project that the Government must invest in. I am expecting commitment from the Minister, I am expecting Government to realise the opportunity, and I am expecting investment in BioYorkshire and the biosciences. BioYorkshire is Yorkshire’s green new deal. It has been developed over the past two years, was seeded from years of research and applied application, and is already demonstrating the power of its science. It is a green industrial revolution waiting to scale up and level up.
BioYorkshire will place not only York and Yorkshire at the heart of the UK biosciences economy, but the UK at the heart of the global bio-economy. Its ambition is for domestic transition, but its power is in global mitigation. It will demonstrate how investment in biotechnology is hugely beneficial for our own economy, and on a global scale will give us new tools through which to drive international markets and international development. While the climate crisis drives our world apart and accelerates inequality, a just transition draws us together and demands equality: a time when global north reaches out to global south with the solutions they need to build their futures as we transition ours; and when we quicken the move to clean energy as we leave fossil fuels to rest in their carbon seams.
Let me set out the deal. BioYorkshire is a partnership of public and private. It is led by the University of York and is already delivering outstanding bioscience research with real-world impact of nature-based solutions. It is joined by Askham Bryan College—York’s agricultural college—and Fera Science Ltd. Its partners are then drawn from the food sector, the agricultural sector, digital and science, and the fuel, chemical and material industries. It will drive productivity and sustainability together across these footprints, developing new technologies, and will be at the heart of many world-first breakthroughs in science across the agricultural and chemicals sectors: developing bio-packaging; mitigating methane; using insect and hemp-based technologies in agriculture and materials; upcycling and recycling. It will see the replacement of household waste, petrochemicals and fossil fuels with a new generation of bio-based products—cutting carbon, cutting waste and cutting climate challenges.
Yorkshire’s ambition to be net zero by 2038, as set out in the Yorkshire and Humber climate action plan, and for North Yorkshire to be the first carbon negative region, will rest on BioYorkshire being given the power to deliver. It will use world-class science and local expertise to turn lab technologies to fully scaled-up applications to deliver profitable, bio-based production of chemicals, materials and fuels, and enable productive, net zero food, feed, farming and wider land use practices.
As science and agricultural communities, and the food and tech sectors, look to BioYorkshire to inspire their futures, I say to the Government: if ever there was a project that could seed its levelling-up agenda in the region, BioYorkshire will deliver. This is where the power to the future economy sits. In its first phase, it will deliver 4,000 good-quality green collar jobs: engineers, biologists, agronomists, food technologists, chemists, natural capital economists, and robotic and digital experts—jobs so needed in the region. It will reskill and upskill 25,000 people, preparing them for a bright future in the green economy.
It does not end there. As the Minister will know, such well-prepared projects seed inward investment, attract global investment into centres of innovation, and therefore centre the bio-economy, bringing even greater green growth. From the Humber estuary to the farmlands of North Yorkshire, they are already committed to the project as it reaches out across Yorkshire, south and west. Such innovation will of course attract world-class scientists to our region who will further accelerate climate solutions under the British flag. It will be the place where future scientific leaders in the global south will want to study to bring adaptation to their troubled land.
Springing from this first phase of BioYorkshire is the ambition to grow a network of specialised business incubators, training and skills, and entrepreneurial support to create and grow companies to commercially produce industrial and consumer products. BioYorkshire comprises three linked elements that combine to support innovation from concept to research to commercial reality. First, BioYorkshire’s innovation central will comprise world-leading science infrastructure and training for bio-economy entrepreneurs and innovators, including globally recognised research institutes. It will scale up opportunity and embed demonstrator facilities, including bio-economy skills and training centres, bringing researchers and businesses together to maximise opportunities for interaction and co-production. Secondly, BioYorkshire’s district incubator hubs located in urban, coastal and rural areas of York and North Yorkshire will link local bio-economy start-ups and business scale-ups with innovation and skills central, further seeding innovation. Thirdly, the BioYorkshire accelerator will provide advice, expertise, networks and promotional opportunities for businesses across the region, accelerating innovations from development to commercialisation.
From the investment the Government make—and I know the Minister will want to work with me and the partners to accelerate this—his colleagues in the Treasury will see around £1.4 billion gross value added within the Yorkshire region alone. As for our planet, in the UK, 2.8 million tonnes of carbon will disappear in emissions annually and landfill waste will be cut by 1.2 million tonnes, growing as technology is scaled. But York is not holding on to this opportunity; already reaching across Yorkshire, it is now extending to the industrial clusters of Humberside, Teesside and the north. It is truly a Northern powerhouse, but that power rests in the transition of our technology to not harm our planet as it once did, but to heal it.
The Minister will know that York is the gateway to the north, located equidistantly between the heart of Scotland’s scientific hub in Edinburgh and the power of the City of London, with just about the best-connected rail links the UK can boast. Adjacent, to the back of York station, lies Europe’s largest brownfield site, York Central. I know that the Government have much interest in the potential of this site. At this power point, BioYorkshire’s heart will beat, but its connectivity means that it will fast reach out to the region and nation. BioYorkshire is the bridge between the green new deal and levelling up. It has the reach, the connection—physical and digital; local and global—and the ambition.
Universities and colleges in partnerships with industry, science and research are at the very centre of shifting the dial for our future economy and sustaining our planet. The UK’s economic and skills future depends on the opportunities that research and development generate, drawing on the talents of workforces of today and tomorrow. It will be these skills that will innovate and accelerate economic renewal. This energised generation of young people will take on the old economic model of want and will supplant it with one of restoration of our planet. The demand for these jobs will be high, the opportunities over the next decade essential, if we are going to sustain a habitable planet and mitigate our past failings. BioYorkshire will accelerate this crucial transition and economic renewal through engaging businesses large and small to collaborate in research and development, to start and scale up new enterprises, and to work with schools, colleges and employers to nurture the talent the labour force needs across all skill levels.
This is why I am so committed to delivering BioYorkshire. While everyone will say that York is a lovely place, and it is, if they look beyond the walls, they will see a generation whose industrial past has been stripped away, pride in place taken and skills supplanted by the insecure job market. I see my constituents struggle day by day. The de-industrialisation of York has been bitter and cruel. Its consequences: abject poverty, inadequate housing and inequality. This is why BioYorkshire means so much. It will inject skills, jobs and hope. It lights the dark recesses of York’s past and enables my constituents to renew their pride as they renew our planet. It is why I am on my feet today and why I am here in this place at all. Green-collar jobs really matter to my city of York. Our history, through the Rowntree revolution, laid the foundations for high ethical standards in work. Today, BioYorkshire marks the start of high ethical regeneration in our generation.
The Minister will be very alert to the innovation that Fera Science has driven from precision farming to cut the use of fertilisers to crop-resistant technologies. Domestically and globally, it has vastly advanced productivity and accelerated opportunity. As the climate heats, it will be the research from Fera Science’s partnership that will enable communities in the global south to be fed, to defeat infestations and crop disease and to resist scorching temperatures and flooded land. Askham Bryan College is at the cutting edge of digital farm technology, training young farmers to sustain their futures and sustain our planet.
The race for our planet is ultimately a moral pursuit. The industrial past which exploited this Earth’s assets, minerals and humans to generate wealth has now handed us the task of reparation. The consequences of failure are devastating; the responsibility weighs heavy. We cannot delay, Minister. We have to heal those scars, save those lives and repair this planet. I know the Minister understands; I know he will do all in his power to act.
A year ago, in response to my question at Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister showed his support for BioYorkshire, recognising how it should benefit from his 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution. He said:
“I hope very much that BioYorkshire will be among the beneficiaries, and I cannot see any reason why it should not be.”—[Official Report, 25 November 2020; Vol. 684, c. 823.]
With the Prime Minister’s backing, the Government are already recognising the acceleration for BioYorkshire to be achieved through the North Yorkshire devolution deal, and I know that Departments such as the Minister’s, the Cabinet Office, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department for Education are already showing significant interest. We need action. The pain of COP tells us that we are still in this race against time; there can be no delay.
Will the Minister first make it his priority to come to York to meet the partners? I know that he will be keen to do so. Secondly, will he agree to make BioYorkshire one of his Government’s flagship projects and bring forward the full funding now, so that scaling can commence without delay? To have such a well-developed project could help accelerate the success of the Government’s 10-point plan and bring a crucial offering to COP27.
Commitment to funding is crucial. Partners are committed to multiplying its return. The price of this phase is just £171 million. The Prime Minister has said that BioYorkshire should be a beneficiary. The central economic forecast is that BioYorkshire will deliver a return on Government investment of 8.3 to 1. That far outstrips most of the Government’s infrastructure investments, as the Minister will know.
With COP26 done, the world is watching. Science, economy and ethics are yearning. The Prime Minister talks about a green industrial revolution; BioYorkshire is ready to lead that revolution. The Prime Minister talks about levelling up; BioYorkshire could deliver sustainable jobs and investment to the north right now. The Prime Minister said he would fund BioYorkshire. Will he keep that promise? The Government must see the opportunity, hear the need and feel the urgency to invest in Yorkshire’s green new deal. We cannot afford to delay.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (George Freeman)
It is genuinely a great pleasure, on this late Monday night, to respond to the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell), to pay tribute to her advocacy of the project and the wider cause that it embodies, and to take the opportunity to set out my personal support for the project’s aims. She would not expect me to say tonight that the cheque is in the post or to commit agencies that I cannot and should not commit.
In paying tribute to the hon. Lady’s advocacy, I will set out what the Government are trying to do overall in the area that she has highlighted. I will highlight some of the powerful elements of the bid and where they may fit into the emerging Government landscape. I would be delighted to visit as part of a programme of visits that I am doing around the country.
In the time available, I will try to set the scene. It is a great pleasure to be here as the newly appointed Minister for Science, Research and Innovation with a mission to implement the Prime Minister’s vision of a science superpower and an innovation nation. That means that the UK, in an increasingly competitive global world, has to continue to punch above its weight in science with world-class science and science for the global good that helps to prevent climate change, feed 9 billion hungry mouths and solve global challenges, as the hon. Lady has been talking about.
The innovation nation piece is about not just being good at science but building an ecosystem in the UK and making the UK a testbed or cluster globally for developing the new technologies that will help us to harness the renewable power of the sun and waves and the extraordinary power of bioscience, which is an area of particular interest and expertise of mine. Importantly, on the hon. Lady’s point, it is about ensuring that, as a nation, not only do we have world-class science in the golden triangle, but that we use our procurement and regulatory power to create clusters of new technologies around the country to create jobs and opportunities and a more resilient and fair economy, which is what the Government’s levelling-up mission is ultimately all about.
I suggest that the project speaks to all those challenges in a positive and helpful way. I pay tribute to the hon. Lady’s advocacy. She raised the issue with the Prime Minister last Monday, she spoke in the bio-economy debate, she spoke in the north of England: economic support debate, and she has spoken to me personally, so nobody could be doing more to promote it.
At the recent comprehensive spending review, the Chancellor set out a historic package of support for science and innovation. The country has spent more on science in the last 10 years than it has for decades. We have decided to increase that again in the next three years by 30%, from £15 billion to £20 billion a year, and we have recommitted to move to £22 billion a year by ’27 on the journey to spending 2.4% of GDP. The Government are making important strategic long-term commitments.
Within the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, post CSR, the Secretary of State and I are looking at where best to deploy those funds for maximum impact in terms of being a science superpower and an innovation nation. Fundamental to the innovation nation piece, we will be looking to support clusters around the country. That will not be about trying to move world-class laboratories in Cambridge or Oxford to the north, which would not be sensible; the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology is one of our top laboratories partly because of where it is. It means ensuring that we support the clusters that are taking shape around the country, including the Yorkshire cluster that the hon. Lady talked about.
The hon. Lady knows my personal commitment to the bio-economy. Six years ago, when I was Minister for Life Sciences, I pushed the argument that life sciences should be a broader package of science of life, including the bio-economy and the appliance of bioscience across food, medicine and energy, and should look at how our understanding of biological systems can help to tackle global challenges. We have to feed 9 billion mouths and double world food production with the same land area and half as much water and energy, which is a big challenge. Which country in the world is best equipped to deal with that? This country, because of our agricultural science tradition. If we put together our digital expertise, our agri-tech and our bioscience, and start to invest in those multidisciplinary sciences, I would suggest that we have a huge opportunity to make a big global impact around the world.
Given a background in agriculture and agri-tech, having worked in the seeds industry and having the Norwich research park on my doorstep, I look at Fera, the leadership the hon. Lady has outlined powerfully in precision farming and in agri-tech, the University of York and the agriculture college. This is genuinely a cluster of excellence in its field. The bid it has put together around fuel, chemicals, materials, net zero, food and feed, and land use is a powerful one, and there is very little in it not to be supportive of.
This fits with what we set out in our innovation strategy earlier this summer. The hon. Lady will know that we have identified seven technologies of tomorrow that we want to support strategically. Two of them go right to the heart of this cluster: one in bio-engineering and synthetic biology, and one in genomics, including agricultural genomics for drought-resistant crops, disease-resistant crops and low-carbon farming. I also highlight that we are investing in the HEMP-30 project already through Innovate UK.
In the first half of this year, before returning to Government, I led a big piece of work for the Prime Minister looking at how we could use our regulatory freedoms on departure from the EU to support innovation. This was the taskforce on innovation, growth and regulatory reform report—or, Madam Deputy Speaker, the TIGRR report, if that trips off the tongue more easily—in which we identified 10 sectors where with very little regulatory leadership, and no need of primary legislation, we could unlock billions of investment.
Three of those sectors go to the heart of this bid. There is the agri-environment sector, and the importance of better science and the UK leading in the science of sustainability—the metrics of sustainable farming—so we can begin to label food so that consumers can see that this apple, potato or pint of milk has a low- carbon footprint, or a low-plastic, low-water footprint. It is that labelling that will drive empowered and enlightened consumers.
We also set out a series of recommendations about cannabinoid medicines, CBD and industrial hemp as a net-zero crop with huge potential, and the broader application of agri-genetics for both net zero agriculture and nutriceuticals, functional foods and the interaction of food and agricultural medicines.
There is very good landscape precedent, if I can put it that way, for the space in which this bid is being developed. It is for that reason as well that I am delighted to confirm that I would genuinely want to come up. I am organising a series of regional visits to support clusters, and I would hugely value coming up for a whole day and doing a series of visits around that cluster to help to support its development.
The hon. Lady will understand that we have a process internally now for allocating the CSR funds. There is a huge amount of work going on in my Department and others to set out a framework for that and make sure that it is criteria-led. She will understand that having an Adjournment debate is not a sufficient criterion as and of itself for making that decision, but she has made the case very powerfully.
I am pleased to see that the overall sum has come down from what was a very big number, which makes it harder to approve. I think that these things typically start small and grow and finding a good entry level is key to this project. I would also encourage her, as we discussed earlier, to make sure that the BBSRC supports this. I am sure it would. I cannot commit it, but I cannot think why it would not fit well in its overall structure—and, similarly, Innovate UK and UKRI. On that basis, I think this would stand a very good chance, which is actually—just to correct the record—what the Prime Minister said. I do not think that he actually committed to fund this. What he said was, as I have done, that it is a very strong case and one that it is quite difficult not to see a lot of merit in.
I would close by saying that, if we are going to create an innovation nation, yes, that is about strategic investment by Government in technologies, in institutes and in buildings, but in the end it is about creating clusters. I suggest to the House, which I regret to say is not packed, that the best definition of a cluster is perhaps something that the hon. Lady, I and the representative on the Government Benches tonight, my hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns), can take away and share. For all the academic work on clusters, I suggest that the best definition of a cluster is a low-risk place to move one’s family to pursue a career in a high-risk sector. The conversation is, “Let’s move to Cambridge, Oxford, London, or Yorkshire because, darling, if this business does not work, there are plenty of others. The schools are good, the landscape is good and the quality of life is good—there is a cluster there.” In the end, the cluster normally comes to a mixture of public and private institutions, with entrepreneurship, innovation, support, and a shared vision, and that is what the bid sets out.
If we are to change the life chances of people around the country, it will be done through creating a different identity and a different sense of what this place is about. When we consider the institutions in that area, North Yorkshire is traditionally associated with the most beautiful countryside, wonderful tourism, great heritage and wonderful produce—who wouldn’t want to go on holiday to Yorkshire? However, not everyone can make a living in tourism, and the bid speaks to a bigger, bolder, more global, international higher-value economy for that part of the world, which I for one would be keen to support.
I am sorry that I cannot announce anything tonight—that is not my place at this point—but I am delighted to share with the hon. Lady that I would be delighted to come to visit and to continue to work with her and the partners on what looks like a very exciting bid for that part of the world.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Local Audit (Appointing Person) (Amendment) Regulations 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chair
Before we begin, I encourage Members to wear masks when they are not speaking, in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room. Members should spend their speaking notes by email to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Similarly, any officials in the Gallery should communicate electronically with the Minister.
The Minister for Levelling Up Communities (Kemi Badenoch)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Local Audit (Appointing Person) (Amendment) Regulations 2021.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. The regulations we are considering today were laid in draft form before the House on 21 October 2021. If approved and made, they will provide for the appointing person to set fee scales for local audit later in the financial year; apply standardised fee variations in specific circumstances; and appoint auditors for shorter contract periods, where appropriate. These regulations are designed to provide the appointing person with greater flexibility to ensure the costs to audit firms of additional work are met, and to reduce the need for time-consuming case-by-case consideration of fee variation requests in order to support the timely completion of local audits.
The Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014 enables the Secretary of State to make regulations through secondary legislation. This statutory instrument was laid before Parliament under the affirmative resolution procedure. The 2014 Act placed responsibility on local bodies to appoint their own auditors. However, that Act also provided for an “appointing person”, specified by the Secretary of State, to appoint auditors on behalf of local bodies that choose to opt into such arrangements. Public Sector Audit Appointments Ltd is a subsidiary of the Local Government Association, and it is the body currently appointed to perform that role.
In September 2020, Sir Tony Redmond published his independent review into the effectiveness of external audit and the transparency of financial reporting in local authorities. The Redmond review found that there was an increasing disparity between the fee scales set by the PSAA and the amount of work being carried out by auditors. In turn, that had led to a large increase in the amount of fee variation requests, which are requests from auditors to charge additional fees beyond those provided for in the fee scales set by the PSAA for each audit year. The Local Audit (Appointing Person) Regulations 2015 provide for fee variations relating to the audit of a particular authority to be considered by the PSAA. In practice, this means that the PSAA can only consider and approve fee variations on a case-by-case basis.
In their response to the Redmond review, the Government committed to reviewing regulations to provide the PSAA with greater flexibility to ensure the costs to audit firms of additional work were met more easily. To provide that flexibility, earlier this year the Government consulted on potential amendments to the 2015 regulations. The overwhelming majority of respondents to the consultation agreed with the Government’s proposals, which we now propose as the following amendments to the 2015 regulations. First, this statutory instrument will amend the regulatory deadline for the PSAA to set fee scales, from before the start of the financial year to 30 November of the financial year to which the fee scales relate. This will enable the PSAA to take into account more up-to-date information when setting fee scales, including results from previous audits. More accurate fee scales should help to reduce the number of instances in which fee variations are required.
Secondly, this statutory instrument will enable the PSAA to set standardised fee variations to be applied to all local bodies or groups of local bodies. This change is designed to streamline the fee variation process where a particular issue has had a similar impact on the audit of large numbers of local bodies. Circumstances in which this may apply could include a regulatory or policy change, such as a change to accounting or auditing codes, or even one-off events that have a national or far-reaching impact, as we have experienced recently with the coronavirus pandemic. In those circumstances, the PSAA will be able to apply a standardised fee to all affected bodies, preventing the auditor from having to submit a fee variation request for each individual body. The PSAA will be required to consult both opted-in local bodies and local auditors before setting standardised fee variations.
Thirdly, this statutory instrument will give the PSAA the flexibility to appoint auditors for one or more financial years at time, up to a maximum of five consecutive years. That could include years that precede the date to which the authority opts in, if those years still have an audit outstanding. Under existing regulations, the PSAA is required to appoint an auditor to that authority for the remainder of the compulsory appointing period, which could be up to five years, depending at what point in the appointing period the authority elects to opt in.
In conclusion, these amendments will help to support the stability of the local audit market by making it easier for firms to claim for the costs of work completed. Alongside this, we continue to implement all the recommendations we committed to in our response to the Redmond review, including the regulations we are discussing today. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting the draft regulations, and I commend them to the Committee.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Mundell, and you will be pleased to know that I intend to be brief in my remarks.
I thank the Minister for her introduction, and I thank the officials who talked me through the regulations last week. The Opposition recognise that the 2020 review by Sir Tony Redmond found concerns about the state of the local audit market and made a number of recommendations to address that, and that this statutory instrument is a result of those recommendations. We also recognise the importance of effective audit procedures so that stakeholders, and ultimately residents and voters, can hold local authorities to account for their performance, so we will not be opposing the statutory instrument.
We note that a large majority of respondents to the Government’s consultation, including stakeholders and local authorities, were supportive of the proposals, and so is the Local Government Association. The LGA agrees with the idea of a framework of set-scale fees rather than a large number of variations within a year, and there is general support for the flexibilities in relation to audit timescales and the period of appointments, so we will be agreeing with those proposals.
I have two questions for the Minister. First, I am aware that the Government have earmarked £15 million in extra resources for local authorities to deal with the potential extra costs of audit this year. That funding needs to be ongoing. Can the Minister give any indication about whether the Government plan to roll it over into future years?
Secondly, this is only one part of the response to Sir Tony Redmond’s review. There were a number of other recommendations, not all of which have been as well supported or as unanimously accepted as the proposals that we are debating. Some are quite significant issues, such as a new regulatory body for audit. I know that the Government were supposed to respond to the big parts of the review earlier this year. I may have missed it, but I have not seen that response. Can the Minister give us an indication of the full details of the Government’s response to those major issues, or of the timescale to achieve the vision set out in the review?
Finally, these regulations may well result in cases of fee increases for audit. It is essential that local authorities are able to carry out their functions, such as audit, properly. I acknowledge the £15 million for this year, but we really need our councils to be properly funded for the long term. We have now had 10 years of underfunding of local authorities, and it is the area of government that has been hit hardest—first by austerity and now, under huge challenge, by the pandemic. It is not just local services for residents that have been hit, but the ability of local councils to carry out their essential functions properly. We really need the Government to recognise that, and at long last to start funding our councils properly.
Kemi Badenoch
I thank the shadow Minister for his comments. Members on both sides of the Committee clearly agree that timely completion of audits is vital in maintaining the transparency and assurance of local authority accounts. Late delivery of local assurance can have a significant impact on not just local authority financial planning, but the timely completion of whole of Government accounts. That is why we continue to implement all the recommendations that we committed to in our response to the Redmond review, including the draft regulations.
To answer the shadow Minister’s first question, this was before my time, but my understanding is that we have provided a response to the Redmond review. The shadow Minister raised the question of ongoing funding, for which I have not seen any specific request directly. That is, obviously, not something that I can commit to in Committee. We look at all decisions requiring financing in the round, and authorities would need to make representations for that. Given the pandemic and what various authorities and auditing groups have had to deal with, I think that funding is appropriate, certainly at this point in time.
A new regulatory body was a really interesting recommendation. In our spring report, we set out our intention to establish the audit, reporting and governance authority—a new regulator to replace the Financial Reporting Council as a system leader for local audit within a simplified global audit framework. That is where we feel we can meet that recommendation, not exactly to the letter with the office of local audit and regulation that I believe was the initial recommendation.
I am happy to follow up in writing if the shadow Minister has any further questions, but I do not have any more comments. I hope that the Committee will join me in supporting the draft regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Eggs (England) Regulations 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chair
Before we begin, I remind Members that they are expected to wear a face covering and to maintain social distancing as far as possible. That is in line with Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please give each other and members of staff space when seated and when entering and leaving the room. I remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a covid lateral flow test twice a week if coming on to the parliamentary estate. That can be done either at the testing centre on the estate or at home. Members should send their speaking notes by email to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Similarly, officials in the Public Gallery should communicate electronically with Ministers.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Victoria Prentis)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Eggs (England) Regulations 2021.
The draft regulations were laid—that is the end of my jokes—before this House on 19 October.
This draft statutory instrument has been laid to allow marketing standards checks on class A eggs imported from third countries to continue to be conducted at the locations where they already take place. That is in accordance with current practice and, indeed, practice over the past 30 years or so. The instrument is needed because, without amendment, the retained regulation on egg marketing standards will require those checks to be relocated, causing disruption to the inspection process and requiring considerable additional resources, with no material benefit to anyone, frankly. The instrument will have effect only in England. Both the Scottish and Welsh Governments will make the same amendment to their own domestic legislation.
Marketing standards are intended to ensure that the market is supplied with products of satisfactory quality to meet consumer expectations. They are in addition to, and completely separate from, safety—or sanitary—standards. Sanitary standards will continue to be checked at the border, as they are at the moment. The amendment to be made by this draft instrument is not a change of policy and simply continues the existing arrangements for the marketing standards checks.
Through the functioning of the Northern Ireland protocol, regulation 589/2008 on egg marketing standards —which Great Britain has retained—will continue to apply to Northern Ireland, as it has effect in the EU. Therefore, the current checking arrangements for the movement of third-country class A eggs into Northern Ireland will not change.
For class A eggs to be imported into GB from a third country, the Secretary of State must determine whether the third country has equivalent egg marketing standards. Only European Union member states are currently recognised as producing eggs to that equivalent standard. I should add that we do not export or import a vast number of eggs—that accounts for about 10% of the egg market in England.
In the future, however, should things change and should we wish to import eggs from any third countries other than those in the EU, the Secretary of State must first make a similar determination of equivalence. Until then, class A eggs may not be imported into GB from non-EU countries. I reassure the Committee that that is really not an issue at the moment, because we do not import eggs from non-EU countries. We will continue to uphold the high standards expected by UK consumers.
The change contained in this draft SI been discussed with British egg industry stakeholders, and we held a joint consultation with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. I ask the Committee to approve the regulations.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Murray. I thank the Minister for her full and clear introduction, as ever.
As we belatedly start to introduce checks on goods coming from the EU, the issue of where and when checks will be made will, I imagine, be an issue that will crop up for many goods. Today, however, we are talking about eggs. We are advised that class A eggs are not currently imported from outside the European Union, so in practice this applies only to eggs from the EU. However, as the Minister said, the provision could potentially be extended in future. There is, of course, the ongoing issue of Northern Ireland to consider.
I was struck by the questions raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report, following which there are a number of issues that I hope the Minister can clear up. Returning to the well-worn subject of arrangements on the Northern Ireland border, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has said in response to a question from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee that eggs from Northern Ireland will continue to have unfettered access to Great Britain, which is as one would expect. It is not clear to me entirely how many eggs are going backwards and forward anyway. I am told by experts that most countries like to produce their own eggs. I therefore imagine that most in the island of Ireland are produced and consumed there.
I commend the quarterly egg statistics—which make for fascinating reading—maintained and published by DEFRA. Looking at those, it seems as if the numbers in Northern Ireland egg packing stations—about one sixth of the UK total—tell a slightly different story. Will the Minister tell us how many eggs that are produced in Great Britain are shipped to NI and could she confirm that they will be checked at the border, as stated in DEFRA’s response to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee? How much time is needed for those checks, and what is the estimated cost?
I would also be grateful if the Minister could provide some insight into how the current negotiations on the NI protocol between Lord Frost and the EU might impact on the future importation of eggs from Great Britain into Northern Ireland. I suspect she may not wish to comment on that.
Appendix 4 of the SLSC’s report shows that the Committee raised with DEFRA its concerns that the majority of respondents to DEFRA’s initial consultation were actually against the proposals in this instrument. Indeed, paragraphs 10.4 and 10.5 of the explanatory memorandum helpfully explain that over 80% of those consulted opposed the proposal and that the answer to this clear expression of interest was that
“a round table will be scheduled”.
Presumably a roundtable was scheduled to explain to them why they were wrong.
Looking at the response to the SLSC report, the roundtable seems to have been held on 24 September, where it was argued that this instrument will allow the Animal and Plant Health Agency to carry on randomly checking for both domestic and imported eggs at warehouses, distribution centres and packing centres and that if egg inspections were conducted at the border, inspectors would be unable to maintain their normal rate of inspection. That sounds basically like a cost argument to me. DEFRA helpfully says:
“It is likely that inspectors would be unable to maintain their normal rate of inspections on… imported eggs.”
In other words: “We won’t check at the border, because that requires extra resource.” However, checking at the border may help to stop potential future fraud, and that would be worth doing.
It seems to me that when the Government promise no imports of goods imported at lower standards, that is a promise based on trust, not checking. Somehow we will trust that others would not be so unsporting as to send us lower-standard goods, because we trust them not to. That sounds pretty weak, which may be why some in the industry are not entirely convinced.
The Opposition will not oppose today’s regulations, but it seems that we are opening ourselves up to a situation where other countries check our goods going into their country, but we just wave stuff through. It is an open invitation to fraud, and it is very tough on our producers, who face much tougher checks than their competitors.
Finally, we have had correspondence with a representative from the egg industry, who raised the issue of costs. Will the Minister please confirm that the costs associated with checking eggs at packing centres will not be borne by the egg industry?
Today’s debate should guarantee our high animal welfare, food safety and marketing standards, and I share the concerns of industry stakeholders that DEFRA has failed to provide sufficient reassurance that these proposals will uphold those standards.
Victoria Prentis
I am very happy to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s points. However, I do not currently know the exact number of eggs that are shipped to Northern Ireland, so I am happy to write to him on that specific point. The key issue, for the purposes of the draft SI, is that the current checking arrangements for Northern Ireland will continue to apply; there will be no change, at all, to the way that that works.
As I said earlier, compared with the entire industry, the number of eggs we import is relatively small, at about 10%; we also export a certain number. The numbers fluctuate a bit but, as the hon. Gentleman said, British consumers prefer to eat locally produced eggs—I suspect that consumers across the rest of the world do, too.
In the consultation, the reason why the stakeholders initially objected to the change was that, of course, the British egg industry is very ambitious and wants to produce more eggs, so that we do not import any at all. That was very much the tenor of the conversation that the Department had with industry. I am glad to say that the roundtable, which was held to talk through concerns raised, went very well, and my officials were able to allay industry’s concerns. In summary, the read-out from the roundtable was that, while domestic producers felt that eggs should be checked at the border, egg marketing inspectors from APHA were able to explain that additional resources would be needed to do this, which might necessarily divert resources from other functions.
Daniel Zeichner
I hear what the Minister says and I am reassured. However, from conversations with people in the egg industry my sense is that they are deeply concerned about the threat of lower-cost producers being able to undercut them. I am told that there is something like a 16% cost advantage from other egg producers in Europe. Should we not be concerned about that?
Victoria Prentis
No, we certainly should not. If we pass this SI, APHA will continue to undertake risk assessment checks, both on domestic and imported goods. Other checks happen already, such as the sanitary checks—the safety checks—that happen at the border, as I mentioned earlier. The Food Standards Agency is also able to make checks on safety at the retail or processing end—that is normally where those checks take place. British consumers, and the British egg industry, should be under no illusion at all that imported and domestic eggs will not continue to be properly checked to ensure that they come up to our rightly high standards.
During the course of the roundtable, we also explained that imported eggs will be subject to exactly the same checks as domestic eggs, and that we will not import eggs from third countries until a full assessment has been made. Truthfully, we do not feel that is likely to be necessary or, indeed, to happen.
I hope that hon. Members fully understand the need for this statutory instrument, which ensures that marketing standard checks on class A eggs continue to happen in the locations where they take place today. This SI should avoid any disruption to the level of checks that currently take place and will allow egg marketing inspectors to continue to uphold our high standards. I therefore commend these regulations to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing (Amendment) (No. 3) (High-Risk Countries) Regulations 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chair
I remind Members that they are expected to wear face masks, in line with Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission, and to give colleagues space for social distancing when leaving the room.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Helen Whately)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing (Amendment) (No. 3) (High-Risk Countries) Regulations 2021 (S.I. 2021, No. 1218).
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliott.
This Government recognise the threat that economic crime poses to the UK, and we are committed to combating money laundering and terrorist financing. Illicit finance causes significant social and economic costs through its links to serious and organised crime. It is a threat to our national security and risks damaging our international reputation as a fair, open and rules-based economy. It also undermines the integrity and stability of our financial sector, and can reduce opportunities for legitimate business in the UK. That is why we are taking significant action to combat economic crime, from introducing the economic crime levy to progressing the Government’s landmark economic crime plan. We are also working closely with the private sector and our international partners to improve the investigation of economic crime, strengthen international standards on corporate transparency, and crack down on illicit financial flows.
The money laundering regulations support our overall efforts. As the UK’s core legislation framework for tackling money laundering and terrorist financing, they set out various measures that businesses must take to protect the UK from hostile actors. Under the regulations, businesses are required to conduct enhanced checks on business relationships and transactions with high-risk third countries. Those countries have strategic deficiencies in their anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing regimes and could pose a significant threat to the UK’s financial system.
The statutory instrument amends the money laundering regulations to update the UK’s list of high-risk third countries to mirror lists published by the Financial Action Task Force, the global standard setter for anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing. As the Financial Action Task Force carries out its periodic reviews and regularly updates its public lists of jurisdictions with strategic deficiencies, we also need to update our own. Updating our lists shows that we are responsive to the latest economic crime threats and ensures that the UK remains at the forefront of global standards on anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing.
The amendment will enable the money laundering regulations to continue to work as effectively as possible to protect the UK financial system. It is crucial to the protection of our national security and the UK’s international reputation, and will secure businesses and the financial system from money launderers and terrorist financers. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting this legislation.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to have your chairing our proceedings, Ms Elliott. I thank the Minister for her explanation.
We debate these money laundering regulations quite regularly—as FATF changes its list, countries are added and removed. This particular statutory instrument removes Botswana and Mauritius from the list of high-risk countries, but adds Turkey, Jordan and Mali, which are now classed as high-risk countries that require extra due diligence.
As the Minister said, those changes are based on periodic FATF reports. I refer to the Treasury’s own response to the FATF report, which states in paragraph 1.6:
“Whilst the UK achieved a high rating, the FATF assessed the UK’s supervision regime to be only moderately effective. Specifically, it found that there were significant weaknesses in the risk-based approach to supervision among all the UK AML/CTF supervisors, with the exception of the Gambling Commission.”
My first question to the Minister is, what has been done since the Treasury accepted that there were significant weaknesses in our approach? The same document states:
“For the accountancy and legal sectors, weaknesses in supervision and sanctions are a significant issue which the UK has put steps in place to address.”
I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on that. It matters for a number of reasons. The UK has a particular responsibility with regard to money laundering and terrorist financing because of the size of our financial services sector. It is a big advantage for the country to have a financial services sector with such global reach, but that means that it can be attractive to those who make their money through illicit means as well as legitimate ones.
Since we debated the last such statutory instrument some months ago, we have had the publication of the Pandora papers. They set out a familiar story of the UK and its overseas territories—one or two of which are mentioned in the list we are debating—being used as a vehicle for hiding finance and concealing ownership. I would like the Minister to tell us where we are on some of the promised measures on that. For example, where is the registration of overseas entities Bill, which has been promised for years? In fact, 10 December marks the fourth birthday of the promise of that legislation. Where is it? Where is the reform to empower Companies House to do more checks on who the owners and directors of companies actually are? Where is the implementation of the recommendations in the Intelligence and Security Committee’s Russia report? What do the Government propose to do to ensure that donations to political parties are not the proceeds of kleptocracy?
Talking of individual countries, why is Russia not on the list we are discussing? Is it really the Government’s position that Turkey and Jordan, to take two random examples, are places that require extra due diligence for financial investments, but Russia is not? Similarly, in recent months there has been major change in Afghanistan, but it is not on the list. Why not? What assessment have the Government made of the risk of terrorist financing as a result of the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan? I would be grateful for a response to those questions.
Obviously, we will not oppose this statutory instrument, but it would be absurd to think that all we need to do is mirror the FATF list to have adequate defences on anti-money laundering. It is crucial for our financial system that we act to expose the nature of hidden asset ownership and empower Companies House and others to crack down on illicit finance. Right now, those promises are not being put into practice.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliot. I look forward to the answers to the questions from the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East. He always makes my presence entirely superfluous with his range of questions, two of which I was going to ask the Minister. I look forward to her response.
We will also not oppose the changes proposed, but we expect the Government to continue to monitor the situation in those countries to ensure banks do not unduly take Government-sanctioned high risks. In fact, it is beyond farcical that they list one of their own territories alongside Iran, Syria and the three countries added to the list today.
Terrorist finance—I will not stray too far into this—is not the only risk in financial services. The Companies House reform consultation is not due to end until February. We have been saying for many years that the UK Government must introduce a robust and transparent system of company registration in order to combat money launderers’ attempts to register entities for illicit purposes. The UK Government must act to tackle the ongoing improper use of Scottish limited partnerships—SLPs—via the proper reform of Companies House. The only question that remains for me to ask is when the Government expect to bring forward proposals to ensure that the register is accurate and covers these beneficial ownerships?
Helen Whately
I will briefly pick up on some of the points made by hon. Members and address their questions as much as I can. I appreciate the overall support for the regulations.
The top-line point is that the Government are committed to making the UK a hostile place for illicit finance and economic crime. The Financial Action Task Force found that the UK has one of the strongest systems in the world for combating money laundering. To that end, in our ongoing action against economic crime, we have committed new investments of £18 million in 2022-23 and £12 million per year in 2023-24 and 2024-25 for economic crime reforms, in addition to £63 million across the spending review period for Companies House reform and the introduction of the economic crime anti-money laundering levy, which will raise approximately £100 million a year from 2023-24 to tackle money laundering and fund economic crime initiatives. We are in the process of legislating for that in the Finance Bill.
The shadow Minister asked about overseas territories. The Government have worked closely with the Crown dependencies and overseas territories to combat the risk of money laundering. They share confidential information on company beneficial ownership and tax information with UK law enforcement bodies under the exchange of notes arrangements and have agreed to introduce publicly accessible registers of company beneficial ownership.
We have already set out plans to reform Companies House and strengthen the UK’s ability to combat economic crime. Those reforms are significant and will deliver, alongside broader reforms clamping down on the misuse of corporate entities, more reliable information on the companies register via verification of the identity of people who manage, control or set up companies; greater powers for Companies House to query and challenge the information submitted to it; and the removal of technological and legal barriers to allow enhanced cross-checks on corporate data with other public and private sector bodies. As I said, we have already committed an additional £63 million for Companies House reforms.
I emphasise that the register of overseas entities will be one of the first of its kind in the world, which is good news for the UK; it will enhance our already strong reputation as an honest and trusted place to do business. These measures have full Treasury support but are not Treasury-led. I encourage the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East to take up the specific timetable for the introduction of that legislation with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
The high-risk third countries list will now include Jordan, Turkey and Mali, which were listed by the FATF in October 2021. Botswana and Mauritius will no longer be listed because both have completed their FATF action plans and addressed the deficiencies in their anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regimes that had previously been highlighted. Afghanistan is not identified on any of the FATF’s public lists. However, the FATF published a statement expressing concern about the current and evolving money laundering and terrorist financing risk environment in the country. The FATF is closely monitoring the situation and has called on countries to facilitate information sharing with their private sectors on assessing and mitigating any emerging money laundering risks that are identified.
In the absence of any explicit country listing, the money laundering regulations require enhanced checks in all instances where there is a high risk of money laundering or terrorist financing. In implementing this requirement, the regulated sector must consider geographical risks, such as those that exist in Afghanistan, and take into account information from reliable sources, such as the FATF or domestic supervisory and regulatory bodies. UK supervisory bodies, including the Financial Conduct Authority and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, recently issued alerts to highlight the increased risk in Afghanistan. Those alerts inform firms that they must appropriately monitor and assess transactions with Afghanistan to mitigate the risks of being exploited for money laundering or terrorist financing purposes. There are also various targeted financial sanction requirements in place in relation to Afghanistan.
It is the Government’s view that this measure will ensure that UK legislation remains up to date and continues to protect the financial system from the threat posed by jurisdictions with inadequate AML and CTF systems. The measure also keeps the UK in line with international standards on AML and CTF, allowing it to continue playing its full part in the fight against economic crime. I thank hon. Members for joining us for this afternoon’s Committee, and I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Mr McFadden
The Minister’s closing statement, in a sense, sums up the problem. Yes, this list does keep us in line with the FATF list; nobody is disputing that. My point is that that is not enough. We should be capable of exercising our own judgments.
The Minister says, on Afghanistan, that FATF is looking at it, so we will wait until it looks at it. Surely this country, with a financial sector of such a size and a Treasury as powerful as the one she is a Minister in, is capable of exercising its own judgment about the financial risks in other countries? We took a major decision a few years ago that was all about sovereignty, and here we are franchising out our judgment on high-risk countries to another body and saying that until they come up with a verdict, we will not add any country to this list.
The same goes for Russia. Is the Minister really telling us that the Treasury and the Government do not judge Russia to be as big a risk as the countries on this list? That seems to me to be a judgment that is franchising out our capacity to act on these important issues to another body, in a way that the Government have spent five years telling us they do not want to do any more. My plea to the Minister is to have the confidence to exercise some of her own judgments on such things, because the very size of our financial sector means that we must be far less passive than that.
I am afraid it is not enough to say, on the registration of overseas entities Bill, that I will just have to ask another Department. The lack of urgency is not good enough given the risks posed in these repeated releases of papers. Similarly, the Minister is right that plans have been announced—over and over again—to reform Companies House, but they have not been implemented in a way that would empower that body to be a guardian of propriety, rather than simply a library of data.
The statutory instrument will go through, there is no question about that, but I would say to the Minister that we need a lot more urgency if we are to not just keep up with the FATF list but set an example around the world on how to tackle money laundering and terrorist financing. We should be taking enough pride in our country to want to set an example, rather than simply coming back here every few months to say that we have kept up with the FATF list.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Correction
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Wales
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Wales’s dangerous coal tips loom over our industrial communities like spectres from our industrial past and remind us of how our natural resources were exploited, mostly for the benefit of others. Climate change is set to compound the risk posed by coal tips, and we expect rainfall to increase by around 6% over the next 30 years. This month, the COP26 President said it was vital
“that we help at risk communities adapt to the impact of”
climate change. How is the Minister’s refusal to settle the £600 million bill consistent with that statement?
David T. C. Davies
Included in the £2.5 billion of extra funding that will be given to the Welsh Government this year is an allocation of money precisely to deal with the sort of problems to which the right hon. Lady refers. She has often said that the UK Government should not get involved in devolved issues; this is a devolved issue, but we have provided the money for the Welsh Government to deal with it. If there are dangerous coal tips, the Welsh Government have the money and must get on and solve the problem.
[Official Report, 17 November 2021, Vol. 703, c. 563.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies):
An error has been identified in my response to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts).
The correct response should have been:
David T. C. Davies
Included in the £2.5 billion of extra funding that will be given to the Welsh Government on average for each year of the spending review 2021 period is an allocation of money precisely to deal with the sort of problems to which the right hon. Lady refers. She has often said that the UK Government should not get involved in devolved issues; this is a devolved issue, but we have provided the money for the Welsh Government to deal with it. If there are dangerous coal tips, the Welsh Government have the money and must get on and solve the problem.
Petition
Inquiry into policing at Orgreave Coking Plant
Westminster Hall
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Gurkha Pensions
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
Before we begin, I remind Members that they are expected to wear face coverings when not speaking, in accordance with NHS guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I also remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a lateral flow test twice a week if coming on to the parliamentary estate—there is a test centre where you can do that, or you can do it at home. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room.
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered e-petition 594155, relating to Gurkha pensions.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I will start by thanking Roy Brinkley, who himself is a veteran of the Grenadier Guards, for creating this petition. In total, it has attracted more than 107,000 signatures from all over the country, including 99 from Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, enabling us today to discuss the important issues underlying the petition. I also thank Roy and his friend Jack for taking the time to talk to my office earlier today about the petition and what it means to them. I apologise for not being able to meet them in person; sadly, unexpected parliamentary business meant that I had to ask my staff to take the meeting on my behalf. Roy is here in the Public Gallery, and many Gurkhas have turned up in Westminster today to show their support for the campaign. Sadly, we are likely to be disrupted by votes, but I hope that Roy and everyone outside will feel that we have done their campaign justice this evening.
When preparing for today’s debate, I realised that I have not yet spoken on the Gurkhas in this place. I approach this topic as someone who holds all members of our armed forces in the highest possible regard. As a bit of family history, my great-great-uncle, Allan Gullis—who still lives today—fought on D-day; my grandfather and hero, Terrence Gullis, served in the Royal Marines during the Suez crisis; and my maternal grandfather, William Beacham, served in the Royal Air Force. There is also a strong veterans community in my area of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke. We are proud to be the home of the Staffordshire Regiment. In Kidsgrove, the Royal British Legion has created a beautiful and touching war memorial garden, which is maintained and used all year round, and in Smallthorne, we have the fantastic veterans breakfast club at the Green Star pub, run by Martyn Hunt and Paul Horton. This family background, and the strong ties to the armed services that we have in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, were key motivations behind the Desecration of War Memorials Bill, which I tabled in June last year with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) to secure better protection for memorials to our glorious dead.
On top of that, today’s debate comes at a poignant time, following on so soon from Remembrance Sunday. Every year, we hold poignant services across north Staffordshire and our United Kingdom in memory of our glorious dead, and this year, it was a real privilege to be able to attend the memorial service at Tunstall memorial gardens and to lay wreaths and pay respects at memorials across my constituency. This year, it has also been very moving to be able to plant a cross in Parliament’s inaugural remembrance garden on behalf of the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke in memory of heroes such as Gunner Zak Cusack from Smallthorne and so many other brave men and women who served Queen and country. As such, I speak today as someone who knows just how amazing all our veterans are, and I hope I will do this subject the justice it deserves.
First of all, let me say that I know how highly regarded the Gurkhas are and have been for over 200 years. Their service to the British Crown, both here and overseas, has been marked by excellence and sacrifice. As Roy said to my team earlier, they are some of the most loyal soldiers this country has ever had, and have served on the frontlines of every war that the UK has fought in for the past 200 years. Prince Harry famously served alongside them during his 2007-08 tour of Afghanistan, and commented that
“when you know you are with the Gurkhas…there’s no safer place to be”.
That record of excellence and heroism goes somewhat under the radar, so I thank Joanna Lumley and campaigners like her for bringing the Gurkhas into the limelight. Like many people, I became aware of the problem Gurkhas have been facing, because of Joanna’s tireless efforts and all she has done to get this issue on our political agenda. More recently, we have had our attention refocused by the hunger strike outside Downing Street—indeed, I understand that Roy knows one of the hunger strikers personally. Having spoken to colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and other colleagues in this place before today’s debate, I know that the Gurkhas’ service is incredibly highly valued and respected. Their distinguished service is a source of immense pride in both the UK and Nepal.
From engaging with Roy, I understand that the crux of the issue is the pension scheme, and the concerns of many Gurkhas relate to the historic Gurkha pension scheme that ran from 1948 to 2007. Roy is seeking equal pension rights pre-1997, including back pay. The scheme differed from the arrangements for the rest of the British armed forces, being based on the Indian army model, because the Brigade of Gurkhas was based in Nepal until 1 July 1997. Despite that, I understand that for most Gurkha veterans the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme provides a pension at least as good as, and in many cases better than, that given to their British counterparts with identical periods of service. Under the Gurkha pension scheme all Gurkhas who retired before 1 July 1997 also qualified for an immediate pension after only 15 years of service. This meant that, typically, they would qualify for a pension in their 30s. By contrast, before 1975 British soldiers had to serve at least 22 years before they could receive a pension. That meant Gurkhas were receiving pension payments for over 25 years before most British soldiers of the same rank and length of service qualified for any payments.
Following the change in the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas in 1997, and a review of their terms and conditions of service in 2007, came a change to their pensions. Following this review, it was decided that the difference between the terms and conditions of service of the Gurkhas and those of their British counterparts would be eliminated. For Gurkhas currently serving, and those with service on or after 1 July 1997, there would be an offer to transfer to the armed forces pension scheme. The reason for this cut-off was that that was when the UK became the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas and changes in immigration rules, backdated to 1 July 1997, meant there was an increased likelihood of retired Gurkhas settling in the UK on discharge. This change, to better reflect the changed circumstances of the Brigade of Gurkhas, who were no longer based in Nepal, was most welcome. However, it clearly has not solved all the outstanding issues.
It is welcome that there has been ongoing engagement between the UK Government, Nepali embassy officials and Gurkha veteran groups. The former Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), met repeatedly with Nepali Ministers and veterans groups to discuss the outstanding issues. This led to the production of the technical report, with the Gurkha veterans’ grievances, together with the UK Government’s responses, set out in one document. This engagement has led to improvements in the Gurkha pension scheme, and in March 2019 a new package of measures was announced, including an increase to pensions under the Gurkha pension scheme of between 10% and 34% above annual inflation. There was also a new £25 million investment in medical and healthcare facilities in Nepal for Gurkha veterans.
The Government have since agreed to reconsider the decision on the increase to pensions made in 2019, with a public consultation earlier this year that sought views on how changes should be implemented to the Gurkha pension scheme. That consultation closed earlier this year, and after considering responses Ministers will make a fresh decision on the size of the uplift. The Ministry of Defence has also agreed to start a bilateral committee in December to discuss all Gurkha veteran welfare issues. This move is very welcome, but I understand from what Roy has said that, as yet, there is no certainty over the timings of this important committee. If it is possible, I would very much appreciate the Minister sharing more details of these plans in his response.
Another key issue that Roy raised with me was the ability of Gurkhas and their families to settle in the United Kingdom, to be granted citizenship and to have the right to vote. Non-UK service personnel, including Gurkhas, can also apply for settlement in the UK on discharge if they have served a minimum of four years and meet the requirements of the immigration rules. Settlement gives people the right to live, work and study here for as long as they like and to apply for benefits if they are eligible; they can use it to apply for British citizenship. However, I recognise that although there is a straightforward route to settlement the current system places a financial liability on those personnel and their families, costing £2,389 per person. I am therefore delighted that the MOD and the Home Office are currently analysing the responses received to a draft policy proposal to waive fees for non-UK service personnel if they apply to settle in the UK at the end of their military service, provided certain criteria are met.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
I am pleased that the hon. Member raises the issue of immigration fees. Does he not think that the Home Office is fleecing Gurkhas and other ex-service personnel by charging £2,000 per person for a process that costs only £200 to administer?
Jonathan Gullis
I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. She probably will not be shocked that I will not use the word “fleecing”. However, I was going on to say that I wholeheartedly support the idea of waiving this fee. The Gurkhas have served our country—their country—and they have kept me, my daughter and the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke safe. It is only right and fair that people who are willing to put their lives on the line for the United Kingdom’s safety get the respect that they deserve. I therefore implore the Minister and the Home Office, which I am sure will be watching the debate, to do the right thing and waive the fees for non-UK armed forces personnel who have served their country and who meet the requirements. We have a fantastic Gurkhas veterans community across the United Kingdom.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Member is making a powerful speech, and I wholeheartedly support his call to reduce the fees. I also want to mention the right to vote, which Gurkhas have raised with me. I want to ask a brief question about the hunger strike this year, which was raised with me by the mayor of Hounslow, Bishnu Gurung, who was a British Gurkha staff sergeant himself. Does the hon. Member agree that we should never again see our Gurkhas going on hunger strike to try to get attention because they feel there is not an ongoing dialogue that will resolve these issues effectively, and that it is incredibly important that we have a commitment from the Minister today on his call for a clear process that has the confidence of the Gurkhas?
Jonathan Gullis
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I completely concur: no one wants to see any veteran—whether they are Gurkhas or members of the British armed forces who were born and bred in the United Kingdom—having to go to extreme lengths to get their voices heard. I have had some really great meetings with the Minister, who is in his place, in advance of today’s debate. I know how seriously he takes this issue and how much the Gurkhas mean to him and the people of Aldershot, which he represents. I therefore have absolutely no doubt that he will always be a strong and doughty champion of the Gurkha community and that he will ensure they have someone they know they can go to and hear from directly. They are blessed that he is the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, because they can lobby the Minister directly—they do not even have to go through him to get to the relevant individual, which is a great situation.
I note that the Parliamentary Private Secretary sitting behind the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland), is a former colonel who served in the armed forces for many years. He therefore brings his years of experience to the Department as well to ensure that we get this right. The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) is correct that we should never have to see such scenes, which is why it is important that the Minister outlines the detail for the December committee, so that Roy can spread the word back to the Gurkhas about what is going to happen and they can have full faith and confidence in the system.
The fact that we set up the Office for Veterans’ Affairs is a really positive step forward, because veterans’ affairs are starting to be front and centre. Our colleagues from Northern Ireland, the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), have joined us today, and they obviously have a strong and emotive case, and rightly so, around the legacy of claims made against those who served in the British forces. It is also important that we can draw a line in the sand over the troubles to move the Northern Irish community onwards, which I know the civic community is keen to see, so I appreciate that this is an important issue for us all. Having spoken to many a Northern Irish MP, I know that Northern Ireland is a very open and welcoming country and that its citizens are proud to have people from across the United Kingdom who have served in the armed forces, whether Gurkhas or others, living there and being part of their fantastic country.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Member on securing the debate. On the widespread support that there obviously is across the United Kingdom, does he agree that it is time for this nation and this Government to defend those who defended us and to do that right across the board, so that people who stand by the United Kingdom do so in the expectation that, in the future, the United Kingdom will stand with them?
Jonathan Gullis
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I could not agree more. We have to ensure that if someone is willing to put their life on the line, they are protected and respected. Ultimately, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice; potentially, these are fathers and mothers willing to never see their children and loved ones again. I cannot imagine the bravery that that takes. Sadly, I never had the chance to serve, due to a hearing deficiency, which meant that I could not pass the medical despite the fact that I tried to blag it.
I have spoken about my grandfather’s story, and I spoke to my great-great-uncle about what he saw on D-Day. Ultimately, these people are heroes. We watched the documentary about the lives of Gurkhas and their contribution to our United Kingdom’s armed forces. The Duke of Sussex also did his exposé about his time in Afghanistan and shared his stories with the newspapers about what it was like to be on the frontline. As someone in my early 20s, that really opened my eyes to what the Gurkhas are. They are always on the frontline, always the first in and, in many cases, always the last out. That shows what a tremendous group of individuals they are and what they are willing to do.
Finally, I will touch on one more point Roy made about the support that is available to Gurkhas more generally. Over the coronavirus pandemic, the UK has stood shoulder to shoulder with Nepal, making available support to help Gurkhas and their families in Nepal. We were one of the first countries to send life-saving medical equipment to Nepal, including 260 ventilators and thousands of pieces of personal protective equipment, to help the country’s fight against covid-19.
The UK is one of the leading donors to COVAX, having committed £548 million to the scheme, and COVAX has allocated 2 million vaccine doses to Nepal. UK aid to the Gurkha Welfare Trust has ensured access to life-saving support and supplies to Gurkha veterans and their communities throughout the pandemic. Gurkhas who have gained settlement are able to apply for and receive benefits, and as I said earlier I am pleased that the Government are looking at how to make settlement rights easier to obtain for non-UK service personnel, including Gurkhas.
I thank Roy again for creating the petition and for taking the time to share his concerns with me and my staff. I thank all those who have served Queen and country. On the issues that affect our veterans, it is important that we get it right. The Gurkhas are a special case, even among that group of heroes. I am pleased that there has been movement on the Gurkha pension scheme, with the important change that came in 2007.
Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his eloquent introduction to the debate. As a rule, I do not like retrospection in our legislation, but the Government at the time and this Parliament decided to give rights to Gurkhas to come and live in our country and have a path to citizenship. Is it not therefore the case that retrospection could also apply to issues such as pensions? The one perhaps follows the other.
Jonathan Gullis
To some extent, I suppose retrospection has already happened. As I said earlier, there has been the uplift, the consultation and the £25 million that has gone in, so I suspect that we will see more movement. I do understand that it is very complicated pre-1997 and that that may cause some MOD technical difficulties, but I understand that the MOD is fully aware of the issues.
Mr Lord
I take the point that my hon. Friend makes. The Government have made large steps to come to a settlement on almost all the outstanding issues, but I was referring to those Gurkhas who retired in or before 1997. I am thinking particularly of Major Chitra Rana, my constituent in Woking. He has lived in Goldsworth Park in my constituency for many years now, as have many other Gurkhas. We need to look at the pre-1997 retirees.
Jonathan Gullis
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I totally hear his case. I am unfortunate not to have an individual in my constituency who can share their story. My hon. Friend is a doughty champion for his constituents. I am sure that the Minister has taken note of that and will take it away. Having spoken with the Minister, I have confidence that there will be a very fair settlement coming down the road. It may not be full retrospection, as some would want, but I think it will be a suitable and adequate arrival point, which will mean that everyone can start to look forward rather than backward.
Clearly, however, the issue has not been resolved, and some Gurkha veterans still have concerns, so I am pleased that the Government have been willing to engage and keep dialogue going. I very much look forward to seeing the response on the public consultation on waiving fees for non-UK service personnel, which I feel could be very significant, as well as to the outcome of the bilateral committee on Gurkha veteran welfare. I look forward to hearing what hon. Members and the Minister have to say on this important issue.
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
Given the time we have left, and the time set aside for the three Front Benchers, I think everyone will get in if we remain within five minutes each. I call Ruth Cadbury.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
Thank you, Dr Huq; it is an honour to speak under your chairship for the first time. Hopefully I will not take as long as five minutes. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) on his excellent speech. I also thank him for the interventions he took, which was very generous of him.
As the Member representing half of the borough of Hounslow, with my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) representing the other half, I know that we speak for our local community when we say how proud we are of Hounslow’s large Gurkha community. We are proud not only of their loyal service to our country, including in the fight against fascism in world war two, but of their years of service locally in civic life, through their work with charities and through the many small businesses that play a huge role in our local economy. As my hon. Friend said, the mayor of Hounslow for 2021-22, Councillor Bishnu Gurung, served as a staff sergeant with the Gurkhas. He retired in 1995 after 19 years of service, having received both a long service medal and a good conduct award. After completing his service and settling in Hounslow, he works full time as a London bus driver and is chairman of the Gurkha Nepalese Community Hounslow. He is such a good reminder that a Gurkha’s service does not end when they retire.
It was heartbreaking to see a group of Gurkhas on hunger strike back in August. The fact that they were pushed to such lengths shows how ignored they felt. I welcome the fact that they have since met Defence Ministers and that talks are ongoing about a number of issues. We have already touched on immigration fees.
Seema Malhotra
My hon. Friend talks about the Gurkhas’ ongoing service, describing the journey of our mayor in Hounslow and others. Does she agree that it is indicative that he has chosen SSAFA as his mayor’s charity this year, drawing into all he does the story of the veteran community and their engagement in our public life?
Ruth Cadbury
My hon. Friend and I were at the mayor’s fundraising event just three weeks ago, where there was a wonderful presentation from SSAFA. We congratulate the Gurkha community and Councillor Gurung on his fundraising, support and time spent volunteering for SSAFA.
I will not repeat the points already made about immigration fees. I am concerned about an issue that has not yet been raised. Many Gurkhas living on low incomes because of the pension problem will have been impacted by the decision to cut £1,000 a year—£20 a week—from universal credit. With more than 30,000 families claiming universal credit in Hounslow alone, that cut will affect a number of Gurkha families. The issue was raised as part of the hunger strike. Surely, given their service to this country and communities across the land, Gurkhas deserve better than being forced to survive on the edge of poverty. I hope the Minister will make clear just what our Government are doing for all those Gurkhas who gave up so much in service to our nation.
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I thank the Petitions Committee for making time for the debate, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for eloquently leading it. I agree with many of the things he said. For time’s sake, I will not repeat most of them, but I particularly agree on making sure that our relationship with Nepal, as well as the Gurkhas, is as strong as it can be. He underlined our support for them around the covid pandemic.
Gurkhas have made an outstanding contribution to the UK over many years of dedicated service, and they are rightly held in high esteem by the British Army and the British public. I have had the honour of meeting many Gurkha veterans in my constituency, because we have one of the larger Nepalese communities in the UK, being just down the road from Aldershot, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence People and Veterans. I also had the opportunity to meet Gurkha soldiers during my time in the armed forces parliamentary scheme. Although I do not have the years under my belt of some esteemed Members here who served in the armed forces, having met some of those soldiers at first hand in conflict zones, I understand their tenacity and resilience, which was writ large.
My constituency is proud of its large Nepalese community; many are Gurkha veterans who served our country bravely and whose families decided to make the UK their home. Gurkha veterans and their wider families play a central role in Basingstoke, including at civic events like Remembrance Sunday very recently, demonstrating the importance of remembering the contribution of people across the globe to protecting our way of life on these shores.
More than 700 people in Basingstoke signed the petition for today’s debate. I thank the Petitions Committee for the opportunity to underline the importance of fairness in how we support every member and former member of the British armed forces. Fairness in pensions and in the way we treat Gurkhas at the end of their military career has been central to the many conversations and meetings I have had with my constituents who have Nepalese heritage over a number of years.
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
On fairness, does the right hon. Lady agree that, when we are talking about the need for pension parity, we are talking about not just Gurkha veterans themselves, but widows and other family members, who number in their many thousands, including in south east London? When looking at welfare in the round and at what the bilateral committee might look into, widows in receipt of the GPS must be at the forefront of the Government’s mind.
Mrs Miller
The hon. Member has pointed out the complexities of the discussions that will take place in the coming weeks. I am sure the Minister heard his remark and perhaps he will pick up on it later on. The welfare of all veterans, including Gurkhas, could not be more important, and welfare is, of course, at the heart of the armed forces covenant, brought in by this Government to ensure the best support for those who have done so much for our country.
Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend mentions the importance of veterans. Does she agree that Wales being the only country not to have a veterans commissioner at the moment is a misstep? Will she join me in urging the Welsh Government to create such a position?
Mrs Miller
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Of course, I join her in that call. I have seen at first hand the importance of the covenant in the way it has driven this Government’s commitment to veterans, as well as serving the armed forces and their families. It is really a tried and tested approach. The covenant is a pledge that acknowledges the bravery of those who served our country and their families, too, and that they should be treated with fairness and respect in our communities, economy and society.
I know the pension schemes in place for Gurkha veterans have been scrutinised by the courts on a number of occasions, and that the basis for the way Gurkha pensions are set out has been upheld in no less than three judicial reviews since 2003, including a European Court of Human Rights case. However, it is right to always keep these matters under review, and I am sure the Minister will update us on how he is doing that.
I am absolutely delighted that it is my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence People and Veterans who is replying to today’s debate. He and the Secretary of State have already made it clear that they have met a wide range of Gurkha representative groups, as well as the Nepalese ambassador, and have committed to further talks, including at a bilateral committee, to discuss these issues in the coming weeks. It will be important to hear more details of that work. That is obviously in addition to other measures that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North has already gone through, which I will not repeat.
Many of the representations I have had from my constituents also refer to the issue of fees for non-UK service personal applying to settle in the UK at the end of their military service. It will be important to hear more from the Minister about the work that the Home Office and the Ministry of Defence are doing to analyse the responses to a consultation on that specific issue. We need a system that is clearly fair for everybody involved.
The Nepalese community in my constituency are an incredible asset to the town in so many ways that time does not allow for me go into them now. However, I pay particular tribute to Mr Om Gurung, chair of the Basingstoke Nepalese Community, Mrs Poonam Gurung, the former head of the Non-Resident Nepali Association UK, Gurkhas such as Captain Pancha Rai, who fought in the Falklands and is one of seven people who opened our Gurkha Grocery Shop in the centre of town, and the many who have campaigned on the issue of pensions, including Dhan Gurung.
Like so many who have spoken today, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence People and Veterans will be able to give us more details of the plans to work with Gurkha representatives to resolve the issues around pensions and immigration fees. I know that, like us, he wants to see a fair way forward for everybody involved.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) on starting us off this afternoon.
This is a very important debate. We have always considered the Gurkhas’ service to be loyal, courageous and skilful. Gurkhas are synonymous with the very best of the British armed forces. During the world wars, more than 43,000 Gurkhas lost their lives in battle, and since then they have served in just about every theatre of war, including the Falklands, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, it is a question of value. How do we consider these individuals? Do we consider them as equal and do we properly value them, or are they simply a convenient source of personnel?
It took until 2009 for Gurkhas to secure the right to settle in the UK. Together with enshrining that in law, at that point it would have been sensible of the UK Government to adjust pension allowances for all Gurkhas—including those who retired before 1997—to account for new living costs. It was distressing to see Gurkhas, including the widow of one Gurkha soldier, having to go on hunger strike in August. One individual stated that he receives approximately £350 a month from his pension, while similar service veterans receive approximately £1,200 a month. We can argue about the legalities, the rights and wrongs and whether it has been through court, but the bottom line is that £350 a month is not enough to live on. We need to look at that. The drastic step of hunger strikes is always the last resort; it is never the first thing people try. It is a testament to the amount of work that has gone on in the Gurkha community for many years to try to get the issue sorted.
About the protests, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence said that they
“greatly value the contribution that Gurkhas make and do not wish to see veterans undertaking such protests unnecessarily”,
which is good until the word “unnecessarily”. They were not unnecessary protests, and that is not the sort of rhetoric we should be hearing from the Ministry of Defence. I hope that the Minister here today can take that message back to those at the Ministry and talk to them about the use of language, because language is important. I come back to the word “value”. It matters.
The hunger strike ended after 13 days, with the Government committing to “extensive consultation” and the establishment of a bilateral committee on Gurkha welfare issues, but we have not yet seen any change. Talks are not enough. This has to be sorted: Gurkha veterans, including those who served pre-1997, must be paid an equal pension.
Of course, as others have mentioned, it is part of a wider issue. Fair status is not granted to personnel from overseas. An individual with a wife and two children would have to pay £10,000 to try to bring their partner and children here. There are also instances of individuals being refused NHS treatment. It is high time that the UK Government treated non-UK-born veterans and those born in the UK the same way. We must respect and honour their service. If the Government are serious about their commitment to veterans—all veterans, regardless of their place of birth—we must see pension equality, a waiver of immigration fees and a serious approach to veterans’ affairs. That is literally a no-brainer. I am sure that the Minister is already on the case because he is a champion of veterans, and I know that he will be working away, but let us not have the same debate in a year’s time.
Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I declare an interest in that my partner is a serving member of the armed forces, although not a Gurkha. I thank the Petitions Committee for introducing the debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for a typically energetic opening contribution.
The Gurkha community is a treasured and valued part of my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire, so I am not surprised that 253 constituents signed the petition. We share a long history with the Gurkhas who, as we know, have played a critical role in aiding our British Army for the last 200 years. I was struck by the comments of the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) about the Commonwealth history of our soldiers, which is not well understood. Perhaps we need to do more on that.
I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak once again about my support for the Gurkhas, having described my strong affection for them in my maiden speech. The debate is in good hands, as I know that the Minister for Defence People and Veterans very much values the Gurkha community whom he represents. I thank him for his consistent engagement with the Gurkha community nationally. The hunger strike earlier this year was extremely difficult to watch but drew national attention to this important issue. There is no doubt that all in this place are extremely sympathetic to the Gurkhas’ campaign, and I know that the Minister will later give reassurance that he is doing all that he can.
Brecon is not only home to hundreds of Gurkha families but twinned with the beautiful village of Dhampus in northern Nepal.
Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that places with high proportions of Gurkha veterans, such as my Bridgend constituency in Wales, should be incredibly proud of that, and that removing the financial liabilities on Gurkha veterans who want to resettle in the UK—especially in Wales—is the right thing to do, provided, of course, that they meet the criteria?
Fay Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I agree and will talk about that later in my speech. The Gurkha soldiers I have met in my constituency tell me that they love living in Wales, that they have a strong connection and that it very much reminds them of life back at home in Nepal. Those in my constituency are valued members of the community, with many volunteering with the Brecon Beacons national park and many heavily involved in hospitality. I think of Khusiman Gurung who runs the New Gurkha Inn in Talgarth—I highly recommend its curry. Many are also active soldiers who work at the Infantry Battle School in Brecon.
As we have heard, pensions rights are an extremely emotive issue, but Britain has a strong history of protecting its soldiers and veterans. I will always campaign for us to do more, and I refer again to my campaign for the Welsh Government to create a veterans commissioner in Wales so that veterans across the UK can count on consistent support from all their Governments. I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Dr Wallis) and very much support the recent proposal to waive settlement fees for non-UK service personnel. I hope that the Minister will say more about that.
I cannot support the accusation made in the debate that the Gurkha pension scheme is less satisfactory than the armed forces pension scheme. The majority of Gurkhas residing in the UK who qualified for the GPS received an immediate pension after 15 years’ service. That is different from British soldiers on the armed forces pension scheme, who mostly do not serve the 22 years necessary to qualify for an immediate pension; instead, they have a preserved pension payable at the age of 60. Gurkha veterans are quite rightly well looked after in line with their years of dedicated service to the British armed forces.
I was delighted that, in 2019, the previous Minister for the Armed Forces—now in the other place—provided a £15 million increase to the Gurkha pension scheme, increasing pensions by upwards of 34%. That was a welcome and deserved increase. The Government have met and, I believe, protected cultural norms by ensuring that in the event of the death of a Gurkha pensioner, the surviving spouse, children, parents and dependent siblings are eligible for that benefit. It is very difficult to introduce improvements to public service pensions retrospectively, so I hesitate to call for amendments to the Gurkha pension as it stands. The large majority of Gurkhas in the UK qualify for the 1997 threshold and therefore are, most critically, eligible for the armed forces pension scheme, in addition to qualifying for the full range of welfare benefits, including pension credit.
To conclude—with just a few seconds remaining to me—I believe this to be a fair and just scheme that protects our most valued Gurkha veterans, ensuring that they enjoy a well-deserved retirement, but I urge the Minister to continue his engagement with Gurkha veterans and, above all, veterans right across the UK.
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
To be honest, with the drop-out, we can elasticise the time limit of five minutes. I should have said that before—sorry. The first to take advantage is Matt Rodda.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
Thank you, Dr Huq. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, and I am grateful to speak in this very important debate. In the time available to me, I would like to make three points: to add my support to the points made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) to pay tribute to the Gurkhas and their service to this country over nearly two centuries; to point out the high level of local support in Reading and Woodley for this community and their valued service; and to call on the Minister, to whose speech I am looking forward, to respond in detail to the issues raised.
First, I would like to spend a few moments paying tribute to the Gurkhas. They have given long and loyal service to this country, and it is worth mentioning some of the military history in a brief form. They were vital in world war one. That is less well known than their service in world war two, in which they played a crucial role in the defence of India. And they have taken part in many recent conflicts, defending this country and our interests overseas. Those include, obviously, the Falklands, Afghanistan and many others in between. We owe a debt of honour to these brave soldiers, and I hope that the Minister, who I obviously know is a gallant gentleman, will respond in an appropriate way.
I would like to point out, as colleagues have, the very high level of support in my community and to dwell on some examples of its support for the Gurkhas. I want to add that I was privileged some years ago to visit Nepal, where I was overwhelmed by the generosity of the local people and the wonderful support that they give to foreign visitors to their beautiful country.
Reading has a population of nearly 3,000 Gurkha and Nepalese people. As the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) mentioned, that is common in our part of southern England, close to Aldershot. Many are retired Gurkhas, although not all; we have some highly skilled migrants from Nepal as well. Many of them live on relatively modest incomes. We have a number of pre-1997 pensioners, living on very modest incomes in what is a high-cost area in the south-east of England. Many work in crucial local public services—as colleagues have said—such as in the NHS at the Royal Berkshire Hospital, for Reading Buses, where many serve as bus drivers, and in many other forms of public service, and indeed in local businesses. We are proud to have many small local businesses linked to the Gurkha community.
I would like to pay a very special tribute to one particular former soldier, Warrant Officer Gyanraj Rai, who has played a crucial part in this campaign, as colleagues will have mentioned; indeed, many colleagues here today will have met Gyanraj Rai because he has been on hunger strike not once but twice in the last 10 years. I first met him in 2013, when I was the Labour parliamentary candidate for the Reading East constituency, and I have to say that he is the most gallant gentleman. I pay tribute to him and all the other local people who have taken part in this campaign. Our hearts are with them and we wish them well in their endeavours. Gyanraj Rai has conducted himself with the utmost gallantry and dignity in this very difficult period. I should add that that obviously includes the recent hunger strike, when he was outside No. 10 Downing Street for a number of days, suffering greatly, as were the other hunger strikers.
I hope that the Government will now hear this plea and do what local communities, in their own way, have done to support our British Gurkhas. In Reading, we have excellent support from Reading Borough Council: it has given veterans priority in the council house waiting list. We have had other support from charities and from the community. There has been a wide range of forms of help, such as helping elderly veterans and particularly their families to learn English; there have been a number of other forms of support. There is huge support and appetite for continuing that and helping people to integrate into society in this country. I hope the Minister will reflect on that when he speaks later.
In conclusion, I want to ask the Minister to address these difficult issues. I appreciate the matter is hugely difficult and technical, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North mentioned, but it is high time the Government investigate further and begin a dialogue with the Nepalese Government, and continue and deepen their dialogue with the veterans. I look forward to the Minister’s speech.
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
We have made good time. We have come to the last of the Back Benchers, but we will have to suspend at 7 o’clock. Let us see how far we get. I call Jim Shannon.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, Dr Huq. I was keen to participate. I thank the Backbench Committee for allowing the petition to be debated and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for introducing it in such a well-rehearsed fashion.
No Member of this House, as others have said, is under any illusion as to the debt owed to the Gurkhas. The pension is an issue that I have raised in the House since 2011, as have others on many occasions. To put it simply, the historic treatment that the Gurkhas have received during the 200 years for which they have proudly served this nation has been disgraceful and must come to an end.
Gurkhas have served in the British Army around the world since 1947, and even before then 43,000 Gurkhas gave their lives fighting in the first and second world wars. Their bravery is the stuff of legend. Every one of us will have had some contact with the Gurkhas over the years. When I did the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I had the opportunity to meet some of the guys. We were introduced to them. I will never forget it; I was greatly humbled to be in their presence. I say that honestly, because I was. The Gurkhas might be men of small stature, but they have tremendous courage and bravery that surpasses and equals that of many others across this great nation.
Many years ago I also had the opportunity to see the Gurkhas at Mount Stewart in my constituency of Strangford, where they were the special attraction for the beating of the retreat. It was idyllic and will remain in my memory for all my life. My wife and I were both invited. It was a few years ago, on it was a lovely sunny summer’s evening. At the Mount Stewart house, which is run by the National Trust, the beating of the retreat was done by the Gurkhas and it was unforgettable. To the day I die I will always remember it.
It has been more than three years since the joint technical report on the British Gurkha case was exchanged between two Governments on 22 March 2018 at Whitehall in London, which was the basis for a dialogue to address the main concerns of the British Gurkhas—the very thing that every person in the Chamber has said today. To date the silence has been deafening and it is time we stepped up and stepped in, just as the Gurkhas have done for us. In his intervention, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) referred to the bravery of the Gurkhas and how they deserved equal treatment simply because they fought in the same theatres of war alongside those who have got the full pension, which the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) referred to, that the Gurkhas do not have.
People have made clear their opinion in signing the petition—as clear as a bell and as clear as it can be. There can be no doubt whatsoever that they do not believe we are doing the right thing, so the issue for us and the Minister, for whom I have the utmost respect, is that we are not doing the right thing, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North said. I am sure that those who have already spoken and the shadow spokespersons who will speak afterwards do not believe that we are doing the right thing.
At what stage will we decide to do the right thing by those brave men and their families? It is not just about the soldiers; it is about their families as well. They deserve the pension. They have honoured us. They have delivered and they deserve to have it. How many petitions will it take? How many protests? How many demonstrations? How many hunger strikes? There have already been too many.
The Minister must help us with a response that outlines the steps that will be taken to ensure that parity is restored with the other arms of our armed forces. I read in an article in The Daily Express that one of the Gurkhas who took part in the hunger strike said that he received just £47 a month after he retired, while his British counterparts got £600—a sixteenfold difference.
Seema Malhotra
Normally, it is the hon. Member who intervenes on me, so it is a great honour to intervene on him. He makes an important point about the huge difference in payments received. Does he agree that one of the reasons behind that inequality was the assumption that many would go back to Nepal who did not do so, and that we need to understand and address the reality of their lives, not the assumption that was made many decades ago?
Jim Shannon
The hon. Lady is right: it is not about the assumption. The debate is about the reality for the Gurkha soldiers and where they are. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West referred to the fact that today such a soldier receives £350 a month compared with £1,200 for former British soldiers—an £850 difference. Is that parity? Is that equality? Is that right? No, it is not, and therefore it is clear to me that we have to try to do something.
When the Gurkhas fight, no one can accuse them of being second-class warriors. Their courage is equal, if not better, on some occasions. They are in a class of their own, yet they demand only parity, equity and fairness. They fought alongside other regiments, more often than not at the forefront in battle, and deserve the same benefits, pensions and welfare as their colleagues have received. How many right-thinking persons could argue that this is not a debt that is owed, and that we have a role to play in ensuring the payment of that debt? I certainly cannot, and therefore I am proud to stand, along with others, with the Gurkhas, as they have stood for freedom and democracy under the banner of our monarchy, and of our Queen, and before that our King.
I understand, of course, that talks are set to begin between the UK and Nepal in the form of a bilateral committee to discuss all Gurkha veteran welfare issues. However, I put on the record that there is a concern, which appears valid to me, that that talking shop will deliver the same results as previous attempts: nothing of consequence. I ask the veterans Minister whether he can tell us, and state for the record in Hansard, what he expects the bilateral talks to deliver for the Gurkhas. That is what we want: delivery for the Gurkhas.
Mr Lord
The hon. Member talks eloquently about Gurkha welfare. One issue that Gurkhas living in my constituency of Woking have brought to me is that when they are settled here, particularly when they have become British citizens, travel abroad to family who are still in Nepal can be difficult, bureaucratic and sometimes expensive. Would he welcome the Minister spending a couple of moments to explain what we are doing in dialogue with Nepal to try to resolve some of those issues?
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that valid point. I would certainly look to the Minister to respond to that. I am sure that he is already getting the answer that we wish to hear from his Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland). If other soldiers can get the rights of travel, I suggest that we should do the same for the Gurkhas.
Gurkhas and their families still live in poverty, despite believing that fighting for our Government, our country and our Queen would mean security for their families. What we deliver for the Gurkha soldiers, we must also deliver for the families. They deserve nothing less. The message from this place, as we have all said, must be that we will settle for nothing less on their behalf. We want for the Gurkhas what other soldiers have—nothing less, nothing more.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I am conscious that the Minister in the House appears to have been talking for over half an hour, so I fully expect the Division bell to ring some way through my speech. Perhaps Members will be glad of a break from me.
I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for opening this important debate and setting the scene so eloquently, and I pay tribute to the 87 signatories in Glasgow East who signed the petition. In responding to the debate on behalf of the Scottish National party, I acknowledge the 12 speeches from Back Benchers, all of whom made a passionate case, which I am sure the Minister will reflect on. In particular, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan), who made an excellent speech and is a frequent campaigner on this topic. She said that it was important to pay tribute to the 33,000 Gurkhas who lost their lives over the course of the world wars. For far too long, the contributions of service personnel from across the Commonwealth have been undervalued and overlooked.
Many Members have been engaged in the all-party parliamentary group on frozen British pensions for some time now. It remains a massive stain on global Britain’s brand that so many pensioners, particularly those who served this country, languish in pension poverty oversees. For 50 years, Gurkhas have served the British Army, fighting in two world wars and conflicts across the globe. We should commemorate the contribution of all Commonwealth service personnel, including the Gurkhas who have served in the armed forces.
I firmly believe that we all owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the people who have chosen to serve and sacrifice so much. However, instead of recognising the importance of service personnel from across the Commonwealth, the British Government are set on undermining and dismissing the sacrifice that many have made. This Government have continually been unable—perhaps even unwilling—to recognise the complications that stemmed from the deeply unfair terms of employment for Gurkhas, which last changed in 1997. As such, there has been a long history of the UK military refusing to pay Gurkhas the same wages and pensions as UK personnel, despite the fact that Gurkhas and UK personnel served alongside one another, made the same sacrifices and certainly took the same risks.
Despite their service, the Gurkhas were shamefully treated as “other” by the British Government and the Ministry of Defence. Instead of being given UK service personnel pensions, the Gurkhas were given conditions that roughly matched those of the Indian army. That pension is significantly lower than the UK pension, which I would argue is not particularly generous. As such, it gave many Gurkhas a lower standard of living and led to their falling into extreme poverty. It also meant that the Gurkhas were intentionally not integrated into the main British Army, thus putting them at a disadvantage in comparison to UK-born peers.
6.57 pm
Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House.
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
The debate may now resume until no later than 7.44 pm. I call David Linden, who was so rudely interrupted.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I am sorry to rudely interrupt the hon. Gentleman again. I apologise to you as well, Dr Huq. This is a fleeting visit; I am trying to be here and in the main Chamber at the same time, but I have not quite mastered that yet.
Before I left, the hon. Gentleman raised the key issue for me and my constituents: the poverty Gurkhas have been thrust into as a result of, to be frank, an act of gross discrimination over years. Does he agree that, because of the length of service and the commitment Gurkhas have shown, including through the human sacrifices made, we should never allow this group of people to live in the level of poverty that he described earlier, and that we need redress as rapidly as possible?
David Linden
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman was able make it to the debate and put that on the record for his constituents, who are lucky to have him; I know his constituency has a big Gurkha community. I absolutely agree with him on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West highlighted that many Gurkhas who come to this country are separated from their families, only to be hit with exorbitant visa fees. I highlight and pay tribute to the immense bravery of the three hunger-striking Gurkha veterans who refused food for 13 days until the British Government agreed to further talks. One striker, Mr Dhan Gurung, explained that in 1994 his pension was £20 a month, and that he and his family lived in poverty because of the British Government’s “penny pinching”. That, I am afraid, is the crux of the issue.
Far too many Gurkhas now find themselves and their families in poverty due to their not being eligible for the UK armed forces pension. I am glad to hear that the UK Government have since met Gurkha advocacy groups, representatives from the Nepali embassy and, indeed, the ambassador. Further to those discussions, the announcement of the bilateral committee to discuss all Gurkha veteran welfare issues is certainly a positive step forward. However, the measure of progress on that will not be words, but action. I concur with the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that it cannot be a talking shop. I am sure the Minister will reflect on that.
The Ministry of Defence said in a statement that it is
“committed to ensuring that the Gurkha pension scheme is sustainable and fair alongside other UK public sector pensions.”
I pose a question to the House. It is one thing to compare pensions alongside each other, but we are not comparing the fact that Gurkhas served in the exact same way alongside British forces. If we can compare and recognise equality in theatre, surely the same should be true of pensions. I urge the Government to uphold that commitment to the Gurkhas and ensure that they are treated equally.
The Gurkhas have the support of many comrades that they served alongside and several veterans’ groups in the UK. Service personnel born in the UK recognise the sacrifice and contribution of those in the Commonwealth, and it is time that the British Government do the same. The Government should resolve this issue and ensure parity by simply matching the terms of Gurkha veterans, personnel and recruits with those serving in the armed forces from the UK. The Government’s lack of full recognition of Gurkhas in service of the UK, as well as those from the wider Commonwealth, is a fundamental failure to right a transparent and, I would argue, historic wrong. Moreover, it is an enormous stain on the so-called and much-vaunted global Britain strategy that the Government trumpet.
Even if the terms are changed retrospectively, the Government have a moral duty to treat those who risked their lives in the UK armed forces with the same respect as those serving who come from these islands. Myself and my SNP colleagues will certainly continue to work cross party to ensure that there is proper recognition of people from the Commonwealth and beyond who have served in the armed forces. To be quite blunt, it is time that the British Government give the Gurkhas that recognition and respect. Anything less would be shameful.
Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Dr Huq.
I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for his comprehensive and compassionate introduction to this subject. At its heart, the issue is about how we treat those who have served our country. It is a long-running, complex and fraught issue, with understandably strong feelings among the armed forces communities and the British public at large. In the debate today, I hope that we make some progress—I look forward to the Minister’s summing up—for the sake of those who face the day-to-day reality of the challenges to this community.
We heard from a great range of speakers from all parts of the House, making powerful speeches and useful contributions, all of which recognised the distinction with which Gurkhas serve our country and armed forces and the fact that many continue to contribute significantly after leaving Her Majesty’s armed forces. We heard from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North about the details of the bilateral talks and how important those will be next month. On the important Commonwealth visa issues, it is worth pointing out that the Government proposals, which are out for consultation, will benefit only one in 10 veterans. He stressed the importance of waiving fees and said that he looks forward to the proposals.
We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) about the impact of universal credit on those already on low incomes. The right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), who is not in her place, spoke passionately about the contribution of the Nepalese community in Basingstoke—an area I know well, being a former chief executive of Basingstoke Voluntary Action. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) made a number of points about the injustice that is faced by the community and about the day-to-day impact of that on their lives.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda) is an active campaigner on this issue. I was privileged to meet him and a number of Gurkhas from his constituency this weekend. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who always contributes to these important debates, put it powerfully when he said that it is time to step up and step in to help Gurkhas, and he spoke of the debt we owe them. I thank hon. Members for making those points.
To set the debate in its proper context, I will remind the Chamber of the contribution that Gurkhas have made to the British armed forces. Gurkhas have served in Her Majesty’s armed forces for more than 200 years, from the earliest recruits to the East India Company through two world wars, during which more than 238,000 enlisted in the brigade, to the Falklands, the Gulf wars and multiple tours of Afghanistan. They have made an outstanding contribution to the UK through centuries of service and sacrifice. They are rightly held in high esteem by the British Army itself and by the wider British public.
Recently, I had the great privilege to spend time with a Gurkha regiment, as part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, on a visit to Folkestone. I saw their unique skills and professionalism at first hand. We owe each and every one of them a debt of gratitude and of admiration, as we do all members of our armed forces. The Gurkhas’ contribution to our national security is no greater or lesser than that of anyone else who has served our country. That basic point—the issue of fairness—is what much of the debate hinges on.
The campaign for Gurkha pension equality has been a long-standing one. In 2007, it was the Labour Government who last sought to grasp the nettle of this difficult issue. The Gurkha offer to transfer was a landmark settlement at the time, and a bid for lasting equality for those who bravely served our country. Yet since then, it is easy to see that the situation has changed. The legacy of the Gurkha pension scheme, the GPS, was designed to provide a good standard of living for those who retired to Nepal, but many retired Gurkhas still live in the UK following their service, in particular since the 2009 changes to the immigration rules. Inevitably, that posed cost-of-living challenges and presented an issue of fundamental inequality.
The fact is, a pre-1997 veteran will receive up to £5,000 per year less through the Gurkha pension scheme than someone will through the armed forces pension service, to which those serving after 1997 transferred. However, it is important to point out that a direct comparison between annual payments does not take account of differences in structure and pay, or of the fact that the GPS begins to pay pensions earlier.
Nevertheless, I remain deeply concerned about ongoing reports of Gurkha veterans living in the UK on low incomes and in receipt of universal credit, as we have heard powerfully this evening. That will surely only have been exacerbated by the Government’s recent tax rises and the soaring cost of fuel this winter, with the resulting inflation. It can only be right that measures be considered to ensure that all Gurkha veterans have the opportunity to live securely in retirement, with the support and gratitude of the British Government if necessary.
As I heard in Reading at the weekend when meeting the veteran community, it is worth saying briefly that pension inequality is sadly not the only issue compounding the cost of living crisis for Gurkhas, and indeed all non-UK personnel. Labour has made efforts to end the shameful scandal of the eye-watering visa fees faced by non-UK personnel, including many Gurkhas. Sadly, the Government voted against our amendment to the Armed Forces Bill that would have waived extortionate costs for those who have served more than four years. Ministers cynically cite their own plans as proof of progress on this disgraceful injustice, but those plans would help just one in 10 of the non-UK veterans who left the armed forces last year. The truth is that Ministers are content to make those personnel pay twice to stay in the country that they have fought for. This is yet another instance of the Government’s promises to our veterans being broken.
When veterans come up against these issues, their local councillors and the voluntary sector often end up as the first line of defence. It would be remiss of me to not mention the work of councillors across the country who have provided pastoral support and a political voice to those affected by this issue. I pay particular tribute to Rushmoor Labour councillors Alex Crawford and Nadia Martin for their work on this issue, and for their engagement with service communities more broadly. I also take this opportunity to mention the UK-Nepal Friendship Society and the Gurkha Equal Rights group, which continue to highlight these issues and have kindly helped my engagement with them over the summer. The strength of feeling on this important issue is summarised neatly by the more than 100,000 people who have signed this petition. Fittingly, the constituency with the largest number of signatories is that of the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, the hon. Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty). I know that he has engaged with this issue, and I hope this petition serves to once again highlight its significance to his constituents and the wider British public.
As I mentioned earlier, this issue was given renewed urgency by events this summer. On 7 August, a group of three pre-1997 Gurkha veterans were forced to hunger strike outside Downing Street following the Government’s failure to engage with their concerns. No one, particularly not veterans of the British Army, should have to resort to a hunger strike in order to be heard. I went to visit them outside Downing Street to hear campaigners’ views directly, and what struck me most was their desire to be listened to: they just wanted to be heard by the country they had fought for. I visited on day four of their 13-day hunger strike, and had lobbied the Defence Secretary about this issue the previous day. At that time, Ministers were refusing to engage and hoping the issue would go away, but the dignified determination of the Gurkhas would not be denied, and 13 days later the Government committed to further talks.
I remain astonished by the stubbornness of Ministers on this issue, which is first and foremost one of health and safety. Although I do not condone the form of protest, and I am very pleased that the health of those protesting was not seriously affected, I cannot believe that a Government who claim to be so passionately supportive of the armed forces let this happen. It took years of talks and 13 days of hunger striking before a comprehensive response was received. It is the same arrogance we have seen too often from this Government in recent weeks, and those who serve our country deserve so much better.
That brings us to the present day, and my asks of the Minister. The Government have two important opportunities to make progress on this issue. First, I am pleased that the Governments of the UK and of Nepal will soon convene a bilateral committee to discuss Gurkha welfare issues. I would be grateful if the Minister would set out the Government’s approach to those talks, including what he hopes to achieve on pensions. Secondly, as I speak, the Government are yet to respond to their own consultation on whether the Gurkha pension scheme should receive a further uplift. That consultation closed eight months ago, and I would like to think that the Minister is in a position today to finally give us a sense of the direction of travel. Will he commit to publishing the Government’s response before the start of the bilateral talks?
Labour Members understand that this is a complex issue without an easy answer. We understand and appreciate the significant costs involved in any remedy, but we cannot continue to ignore the fundamental lack of equity in this situation, or sweep it under a rug because it is not convenient. Labour has offered to help reach a cross-party agreement on a way forward, and I reiterate that offer today to the Minister. I hope that he will provide long-overdue leadership and accountability on this issue. That is exactly what the service of Gurkhas to our country demands.
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Leo Docherty)
I am grateful for the shadow Minister’s remarks. I want to begin by putting on the record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for leading this debate. I would like to reiterate the thanks that he expressed to Roy Brinkley, whom I have met more than once. I thank him for his service in the Grenadier Guards and for his continued interest in this issue. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North for making reference to his own family’s record of service and the work of the veterans breakfast club at the Green Star pub in Smallthorne, which is run by Martyn Hunt and Paul Horton. I am grateful that he is interested in that sort of activity in his constituency, and I commend his efforts to look after our veterans.
I would like to kick off with the theme of parity. It is clear that the Government value highly the service of all members of the armed forces, particularly Gurkhas, with their magnificent long and distinguished record of service. For the purpose of this debate, we need to be clear that since 2007 Gurkhas have served on the same basis as the remainder of the British Army. Under consideration today are those who enlisted and served prior to 1997.
Figures show that there are 20,681 Gurkha veterans receiving the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme. That number comprises 13,289 former service personnel and 7,382 widows. That is important because widows normally receive over 60% of the pension of their former partner. That figure of some 20,000 pensions describes the scale of the issue. It also shows the magnificent scale of the record of service of the Gurkhas. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North referred to their 200 magnificent years of service. Some 13 Victoria Crosses were won by native Gurkhas.
I am very proud of the deep local connection that I have with the Brigade of Gurkhas in my borough of Aldershot. We are very pleased to be the home of the Queen’s Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment. Many thousands of Gurkhas have settled and now make their home in Aldershot, Farnborough and the borough of Rushmoor, following 2009 changes in status of settlement. This represents a hugely successful integration and settlement.
I want to put on record my thanks to three Nepalese Gurkha councillors in the borough of Rushmoor—Jib Belbase, Nem Thapa and Prabesh KC—who, under the sponsorship and encouragement of the leader of Rushmoor Borough Council, the brilliant Councillor David Clifford, show amazing levels of tenacity, civic pride and energy. This was beautifully illustrated by the recent unveiling of the bronze of the Gurkha Victoria Cross winner, Kulbir Thapa Magar. I was honoured to attend that event in Rushmoor very recently. We are fiercely proud of our Gurkha community in the borough of Rushmoor.
The heart of the matter is parity. Given the complexity and the fact that members of the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme qualify for and receive their pension earlier, it is instructive to reflect on the lifetime benefit of the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme compared to the armed forces pension scheme 1975, which the majority of British service personnel and veterans receive. If we compare a private soldier with 15 years’ service retiring in 1998 on the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme to a British private retiring after 15 years’ service, the lifetime value of the member of the Gurkha pension scheme’s pension will be £179,000, whereas the British service person’s would be £114,000. That reflects the fact that the Gurkha recipient will be receiving the pension at an earlier stage. That work has been done by the Government Actuary’s Department.
If we consider the value to a corporal—let us take a corporal retiring in 1995 after 15 years of service—the lifetime value for the Gurkha corporal will be £158,000, compared with £150,000 for a British corporal retiring after 15 years’ service on the armed forces pension scheme 1975. That is £158,000 for the Gurkha and £150,000 for the non-Gurkha, which describes the complexity therein and reflects the fact that Gurkhas have traditionally been in receipt of these pensions earlier.
I should also point out that, of course, the vast majority of these pensions are drawn in Nepal—out of 20,000, only 150 are not drawn in Nepal—and do not incur tax, which reflects the fact that the 1948 pension scheme was designed to support the vast majority of Gurkhas who were retiring in Nepal at that point.
I have already mentioned that widows generally receive 60% of the value of their partner’s service pension, which costs Her Majesty’s Government £90 million per annum. We are very proud of that, because it is right that we should be investing in our Nepalese veterans. Of course, we do not apply retrospection to pensions, but we have had uplifts. Since 1999, the Central Pay Commission, which meets every 10 years, has provided more than a 1,000% uplift in the value of Gurkha pensions to those receiving them, which counters the effect of the cost of living in Nepal. That is something we should note. The recent Central Pay Commission recommended an uplift of between 10% and 34%, and an investment of £25 million in healthcare. We have clearly had the conclusion of the consultation, and I look forward to the Government’s final decision being announced in due course.
Leo Docherty
I regret that I do not have time to give way, as I have two minutes.
Of course we listen, and my door is always open to Gurkha veterans. I was very pleased to meet the Nepalese ambassador and the Defence Secretary in September to agree to a welfare dialogue to ensure that all welfare issues relevant to Gurkhas are discussed bilaterally, and I look forward to that commencing in due course. The Defence Secretary was very pleased to see the Nepalese Prime Minister in Glasgow during COP26, and I look forward to being at the heart of that future dialogue.
Several hon. Members mentioned paying to have indefinite leave to remain, which is subject to the consultation. I look forward to the Government announcing the outcome of that review in due course, but I am confident we will make provision that honours the magnificent record of loyal service and sacrifice exemplified by our magnificent Gurkhas.
Jonathan Gullis
I thank all those who took part in this debate. Dr Huq, I do not know whether it is customary, but am I allowed to take an intervention while summing up? I noticed that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Robert Buckland) was keen to intervene.
Robert Buckland
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) for allowing me to intervene. I have the honour of representing the Gurkha community in Swindon, and I have wrestled with these issues for many years. Does he, like me, take some encouragement from the Minister’s hard work, particularly on the uplift and the negotiations he has been conducting with the intercession of the Nepalese embassy since September?
Jonathan Gullis
I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend that the Minister has been exemplary in his tireless work. I thank the Minister for all the kindness he showed me in preparation for today’s debate, and I thank my right hon. and learned Friend, who was very kind to offer his words of encouragement and knowledge on this issue. This has been a fantastic debate, and it is clear that we all respect the Gurkhas and want to see them well looked after. I look forward to hearing the outcome of the consultation and the Government’s announcement in, hopefully, a few weeks’ time.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered e-petition 594155, relating to Gurkha pensions.
Written Statements
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Innovation Loans
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng)
Innovation is central to tackling the largest challenges the world faces, from climate change to global pandemics. The UK must be in the vanguard of the response to these challenges. That is why the Government have placed innovation at the heart of our Plan for Growth including through our Innovation Strategy.
The UK has a long and illustrious history of world-leading innovation, from the industrial revolution to the vaccine development of the past year. Now we have left the EU, we can move even more quickly to respond to emerging challenges and global opportunities, and cement the UK’s position as a world leader in science, research and innovation. That is why the Government committed to public R&D spending reaching £22 billion in 2026-27. This represents the fastest ever sustained uplift in R&D funding, increasing R&D funding to £20 billion per annum by the end of the SR period, £5 billion more than 2021-22.
Following a successful extended pilot with businesses including those in clean growth tech, Innovate UK will deliver a new programme of £150 million in flexible, affordable and patient innovation loans over the next three years. Innovation loans will help SMEs to take their late-stage R&D, including in support of net zero, to commercial success so that they can grow and scale through innovation.
[HCWS408]
Whitelee Hydrogen Project
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Hands)
I wish to update the House: today my Department has announced funding of £9.4 million for a first-of-a-kind new hydrogen project at the Whitelee onshore windfarm—the UK’s largest—in Glasgow.
The project will look to produce hydrogen for storing energy and providing zero-carbon fuel as the country shifts to a clean energy future, and support Glasgow’s ambition to become net zero by 2030.
Developed by ITM Power and BOC, in conjunction with ScottishPower’s hydrogen division, the state-of-the-art facility will be able to produce enough green hydrogen per day—2.5 tonnes to 4 tonnes—which, once stored, could provide the equivalent of enough zero carbon fuel for 225 buses travelling to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh each day. A 10MW electrolyser, to be developed and manufactured at ITM Power’s Sheffield factory, will be co-located at the Whitelee windfarm. The electrolyser is expected to be the largest deployed to date.
This project is subject to planning permission, and final investment decisions from the organisations involved, expected by summer 2022 with start of construction.
In addition, my Department is also supporting the development of hydrogen skills and standards for heating, with an additional £2.25 million in new Government funding. This funding, under the net zero innovation portfolio, will see the British Standards Institution (BSI) develop technical standards, and a consortium comprising Energy and Utility Skills and the Institution of Gas Engineers and Managers will establish new standards and training specifications to facilitate the training of hydrogen gas installers.
As part of the UK Government’s plans to decarbonise the UK’s power system by 2035, they are accelerating the transition to clean, renewable energy—however, the unpredictable nature of renewables like wind power means that energy can be produced when it is not needed by the grid. Hydrogen energy can be stored for long periods of time and in large quantities, making it a vital part of the green energy future, as it provides the opportunity to convert excess renewable energy into a fuel for use across the economy. This means that hydrogen storage will play a key role in the shift towards a fully decarbonised energy system, which is crucial to the UK reaching net zero carbon emissions by 2050.
[HCWS409]
Notification of Contingent Liability: British Virgin Islands Inquiry
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Asia (Amanda Milling)
It is normal practice, when a Government Department proposes to undertake a contingent liability in excess of £300,000 for which there is no statutory authority, for the Minister concerned to present a departmental minute to Parliament, giving particulars of the liability created and explaining the circumstances; and to refrain from incurring the liability until 14 parliamentary sitting days after the issue of the statement, except in cases of special emergency.
I have today laid a departmental minute proposing to provide an indemnity that is necessary in respect of a Governor-established independent inquiry in the British Virgin Islands, tasked with establishing whether there is information that corruption, abuse of office or other serious dishonesty in relation to officials, whether statutory, elected or public, may have taken place in recent years. The then and current Governors take any such allegations extremely seriously, and the inquiry reflects their commitment to a full and independent investigation into any wrongdoing. The Governors have the full backing of the UK Government.
Earlier this year (2021), the previous Foreign Secretary announced that the then Governor had established the Commission of Inquiry [Official Report, 18 January 2021; Vol. 687, c. 32WS] to be led by the right hon. Sir Gary Hickinbottom as Commissioner. On the 14 July 2021 the current Governor announced that he had granted the Commissioner a six-month extension, taking the deadline for the Commissioner to report to the Governor to January 2022.
The indemnity will cover the Commissioner and his team against any liability for any act done or omission made honestly and in good faith in the execution of his or her duty as such, or in the purported execution of his duty as such. The indemnity will only apply to acts done or omissions made during the course of or in connection with the Inquiry. If the liability is called, provision for any payment will be sought through the normal supply procedure.
The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days beginning on the date on which this minute was laid before Parliament, a Member signifies an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question or by otherwise raising the matter in Parliament, final approval to proceed with incurring the liability will be withheld pending an examination of the objection.
[HCWS407]
Grand Committee
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Arrangement of Business
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
My Lords, before we turn to the main business, let me say that Members are encouraged to leave some distance between themselves and others and to wear a face covering when not speaking. As usual, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division bells are rung and will resume after 10 minutes.
Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill
Monday 22nd November 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Advanced Research and Invention Agency Act 2022 View all Advanced Research and Invention Agency Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 24-II Marshalled list for Grand Committee - (18 Nov 2021)
“(d) support the UK Government’s obligations under the Climate Change Act 2008.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require ARIA to have regard to climate change by ensuring that ARIA had an obligation to support the Climate Change Act 2008 and the obligations flowing from that Act.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, since nobody else is speaking and I had prepared a response to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, I might as well briefly respond. I was going to say—indeed, I am saying—that this is a slightly random collection of amendments to say the least. As the noble Lord is not here, I can perhaps adopt a slightly more doubtful tone. As my noble friend Lord Oates made plain in the very good debate on Amendment 1:
“If the purpose of DARPA was to protect the national security of the United States by retaining its scientific edge against the threat of the Soviet Union, today, the threat from climate change, although very different, is some orders of magnitude greater.”—[Official Report, 17/11/21; col. GC 86.]
He went on to say that he agreed that it should be part of ARIA’s objectives. I very much agree with him.
On Amendment 26A, many of us asked this question at Second Reading; indeed, that is why we have tabled, and will be discussing, Amendment 47 regarding the framework for ARIA. It is extraordinary that we do not yet know what the arrangements will be with UKRI, research bodies and so forth, particularly in view of what the Minister said last week in Committee:
“UKRI has a broad portfolio of projects that it funds to tackle climate change across 12 different areas”.—[Official Report, 17/11/21; col. GC 96.]
He set out what all those areas are, but the risk of overlap seems considerable. Therefore, it seems important that we get to know what the relationships are between ARIA and other research bodies.
I am rather lukewarm about the renaming of ARIA. The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, quoted the Science and Technology Committee saying that ARIA was a
“brand in search of a product”.
The problem is not the brand; we want to look under the bonnet and see what it is actually going to do. The name is not what many of us are concerned about.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Stansgate, I should say a couple of words about his amendments. We tackled the issue of climate in some depth when we met last week; I thought that it was a useful discussion. On the name, I think that he was trying to get at why the change had been proposed. Perhaps the Minister, when he responds, can talk us through the Government’s thinking. I do not think that it amounts to a hill of beans, but it was something that my noble friend wanted to explore, to find out what was behind the change of thinking.
Lord Willetts (Con)
My Lords, I will be brief and will refer particularly to Amendment 26A. I repeat that I am a member of the board of UKRI and so have a particular interest in this. The more the Minister can say about ARIA alongside UKRI, the better—it would be very helpful. I do not mind if there is overlap; I am not a purist on this. Indeed, some overlap may be an inevitable result of having ARIA and UKRI. In fact, I would prefer overlap to the alternatives, which are either that UKRI is seen to be unable to do high-risk, high-reward research or that it is somehow seen as second best to ARIA. I hope that the Minister will assure us that UKRI will be able to carry on doing the wide range of activities that it does—including through Innovate UK, in particular—with the application and successful commercialisation of technologies. I see ARIA as supplementing that rather than displacing it, so anything that the Minister can say about that relationship here or in answer to subsequent amendments would be very helpful.
Lord Broers (CB)
My Lords, my hope for ARIA was that it would look a bit like ARPA. ARPA is not a blue-sky, high-risk research operation; it is a project agency that takes challenges and builds systems to meet them. I think that this is essentially very different. It is not an invention agency and that is the reason behind this consideration. Whether it matters what the name is, I am not sure. ARIA has a nice sort of ring to it. After all, to call it ARPA would mean that we are copying the Americans, which is probably insufferable.
Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)
My Lords, I speak as an American citizen, although luckily I do not earn enough money for it to be a problem in terms of the dual-tax system, but I digress. I like the acronym ARIA. I think that it suits the operatic nature of this project. I apologise for not being present at the Second Reading of this important Bill and thank noble Lords for indulging me in allowing me to speak to this amendment, which I think goes to the heart of what the Government are thinking about how the ARIA experiment—if I can put it that way—will work.
ARIA is clearly modelled on ARPA and it is worth reminding ourselves that the ARPA model, which was created in 1958, has taken on a mythical status in terms of its success. It is a mistake to think that it is there simply to fund novel missiles or defence projects; it has a huge civilian impact. For example, it supervises a contest every year to take forward the ability of self-driving cars and, as I am sure many noble Lords are aware, it was a Marine colonel challenging pharmaceutical companies to take forward mRNA research into a practical project before Covid that meant that the world was better prepared when Covid struck. It is important to see what ARIA is capable of doing and I echo what the noble Lord said earlier: it is a project agency engaged, in theory—without wishing to sound contradictory—with projects that will have an impact in the real world, rather than basic research.
The reason I want to speak to this amendment is that I share what I think is an undercurrent of concern about how the ARIA model will fit in with the wider research landscape of the UK. I have to say that, when I was a Minister with my noble friend Lord Willetts, there was—it was certainly not our fault—a proliferation of different agencies that sprang up during our time in government. Many of them had extremely good intentions, such as the Turing Institute and so on. But I have lost count of how many organisations were created in the 2010s and, as I have said to the Minister before, I think that the time has come for the Government to have a proper review of all the agencies that they currently fund. For example, we still have the catapults merrily going about their business, but what is the role of the Satellite Applications Catapult as regards other organisations within the Government’s purview? As ARIA comes on stream, it would behove the Government to have a review of these agencies to see whether we can simplify the landscape and indeed perhaps even free up some budget that could effectively be used for ARIA purposes.
In speaking to the first amendment, I would point out that, while we love to talk about DARPA, in fact IARPA exists as well, and indeed ARPA-E. In the last five or six years, the Americans have created two new ARPAs. One is focused specifically on energy and one is involved with helping the intelligence services—so it is clear that the US Government believe that the ARPA model works. But the crucial point is this: they believe, clearly, that it works only when it has a specific sector as its focus. It is not for DARPA to start straying into climate change or intelligence capabilities: a new ARPA model has to be created.
I would meet the Government half way on this point by saying that the ARIA model is clearly an attempt —a welcome and interesting attempt—to break the mould, free up an institution and go wherever the science takes it, to coin a phrase. But, without a specific sector to focus on, I worry that ARIA may be distracted when trying to find its purpose.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, first, I apologise for being late. I do not know whether amendments can be moved by Thameslink.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
Perhaps I might say to the noble Viscount that it is customary, if a noble Lord is not here for the commencement of a debate, for them to take no part in it at all. In the noble Viscount’s absence, the noble Baroness on his Front Bench formally moved his amendment so that a debate could take place—but that does not mean that he can take part in the debate.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
I found the noble Baroness’s comments in our last session very helpful and I learned a great deal—and now I have learned some more.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
We discussed this with the Table and it was agreed that, because they are the noble Viscount’s amendments, we would allow him to speak. That is acceptable, according to our clerk—but perhaps briefly, if he would not mind.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
I will be very brief. I take it that we are talking about the climate-change provision, on which I will say only this: on Thursday the House debated the impact of COP 26. The whole House knows that the future of planet earth is not unimportant, and I would have thought that, for a body such as ARIA, there is every reason to suggest, possibly in the Bill, that it should bear some serious regard to the Climate Change Act 2008, under which the Government of the time and succeeding Governments have been operating.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, for tabling these amendments and for the discussions so far. I will not comment at length, given the discussions that we had last week about ARIA’s research focus and relationship with other research organisations, but I will respond to noble Lords who have spoken today.
To take up the point of my noble friend Lord Willetts, ARIA needs to be as complementary as possible in its functions to other research and innovation organisations. This of course includes UKRI, which retains its system-wide responsibilities and also funds high-risk research. However, ARIA’s fit within this system goes beyond just having regard to the work of other players; it is about actively engaging and making the most of the system. We are currently looking to recruit a brilliant CEO who will form a collaborative and open network of partners right across the UK’s R&D landscape as part of embedding ARIA as a high-functioning organisation for years to come.
Amendment 49 is on a new subject, ARIA’s title. I agree that the focus should be on what the agency does, but let me say a few words about why we decided to call it the Advanced Research and Invention Agency. The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, will be aware that ARPA was the title of the US agency originally established in 1958; ARPA subsequently evolved into DARPA and the model was then developed, as my noble friend Lord Vaizey reminded us, in forming ARPA-E, IARPA and ARPA-H—somebody has been having great fun with the acronyms. It is also the inspiration for the agency that we are discussing today.
However, I stress that ARPA is only the inspiration. ARIA will learn many lessons from the original ARPA, but it is not a carbon copy. It takes into account what we think to be the distinct UK R&D landscape. As we have discussed, given the levers that the Government already have to gear R&D funding to national and strategic priorities, one key departure is that we are not mandating a specific area, such as defence, that ARIA must focus on. There may be other areas and ways in which ARIA’s incoming leadership wish to adapt the original ARPA model, given what we think is a fairly unique context. Calling this new agency ARPA could give a somewhat confusing message about its functions and easily result in it being mistaken for a purely defence-focused research funding agency. I strongly believe that ARIA must have its own brand and identity; that will be integral and crucial to its success.
I also believe that “invention” is a useful element of the agency’s title, which has been well received during the passage of the Bill in the other place and, so far, in our House, as well as by many in the research community. Together, “advanced”, “research” and “invention” signify that ARIA will be focused on high-risk research and clear, soluble challenges in the development and deployment of what we hope will be breakthrough technology. I completely recognise that the agency could be called many things—we could probably get 20 or 30 different examples in this Room alone—but I assure noble Lords that we have thought carefully about all the many options and come to the position, across government and with contributions from all departments, that the Advanced Research and Invention Agency is a clear, bold title, which clearly signifies what we want the agency to do and how we want its functions to evolve. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, will not feel the need to press his amendments.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(7) ARIA is— (a) a public authority within the meaning of section 3 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, and Schedule 1 to that Act is amended accordingly, and (b) a central government authority within the meaning of regulation 2(1) of the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, and Schedule 1 of those Regulations is amended accordingly.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would subject ARIA to Freedom of Information requests.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I want to talk about the issue of FoI. We all knew that this was coming in our discussions; it came up at Second Reading, and it has come up in much of the commentary about this Bill. As the Minister will know, there is serious concern about the Government’s decision not to include ARIA in the freedom of information legislation.
To put it bluntly, we think that ARIA should be subject to freedom of information, and we do not think that the Government have given any good reason or argument to justify the exemption. We think it is unlikely that ARIA would be overwhelmed with requests, as the Government seemed to indicate at Second Reading. As the Minister knows, that is not the situation with the equivalent agency in the United States. There is no reason that we can see why ARIA would be incapable of dealing with FoI requests that came its way.
At this stage, I know that we are all very familiar with the arguments about FoI, and I expect that we have all been in many debates not dissimilar to this, but it is helpful to remind ourselves why freedom of information was introduced 21 years ago. It gives us the right to know about the activities of public authorities, unless there is a good reason for them not to disclose them. This is called a presumption in favour of disclosure, and it is something that we very much support. It means that everybody has the right to access official information, and that disclosure of information should be the default—so information should be kept private only when there is a very good reason. As I say, the Government have not given a good reason to exempt ARIA.
At Second Reading, the Minister said that he was concerned about ARIA being overwhelmed. I do not know why that would be the case. Even if there were sufficient interest to make the burden of FoI substantial, I do not imagine that that will happen. The Minister has not given a reason why that would be a particular problem for ARIA and not for other agencies. It is just not a good enough reason to exempt ARIA from the scheme—the fact that you might get asked a lot of things is no reason to allow yourself not to answer them. If FoI was a burden for ARIA, I am sure that every local authority up and down the country would like to make the same argument for exempting itself. Why should ARIA be treated differently? That is something that the Minister so far has not explained.
I cannot remember who said this at Second Reading; it may have been the Minister who prayed in aid Tony Blair, which is usually not a bad thing to do. But I part company with Tony on this particular issue. As we all know, Tony Blair decided after leaving office that he regretted introducing FoI because, I think he said, it was a nuisance and it disrupts ease of communication between officials. I do not think there is a Prime Minister now or in the past who would not agree with him. I am sure it is a complete nuisance, but it is important; it is about the balance of power between Governments and their citizens. Tony Blair might feel that way, but that does not mean that the Government are right to keep agencies away from scrutiny. If the Government want to get rid of FoI or change the way in which it works, they should make the case, they should win the argument, and then they should change the law. They should not be attempting to undermine FoI slowly over time by excluding new agencies, which is what I think is happening here. They do not want to have the argument, so they are just leaving out new entities as they emerge.
I should have thought, after everything the Government have experienced in recent weeks, that they would be falling over themselves to show the country that they welcome scrutiny and want to be transparent. Last week, the Minister accused me of being opportunistic in making that argument. I stand by my assurance to him that that is not the case. This is done out of a will to see ARIA succeed. I could stand here and make a very long speech about all the problems the Government have had through lack of transparency, but I will not do that. I want ARIA to succeed, but I think that without some measure—whether it is FoI or some of the other measures that the Minister dismissed last week—there needs to be some measure by which that transparency, scrutiny, oversight or whatever you want to call it can take place, either via Parliament or via FoI.
I am sure that we will come back to this at Report. The Government have declined every suggestion that we have made on this issue so far. That is a shame, and I just hope that they reconsider their stance on this.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Chapman and shall speak also to Amendment 32A, which, ironically, was the first amendment that I drafted. If there is any benefit to a signal failure on Thameslink, it is that by accident I turn out to be speaking to the very first amendment that I drafted. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, because it was her who pointed out last week that the former Prime Minister had said that he regretted the Freedom of Information Act. Next time I see him, I shall gladly discuss that subject, but I think it tells you more about Prime Ministers than it does about the principle of freedom of information.
There are two and a half arguments in favour of this amendment. The first is the principle. We live in a parliamentary democracy—we live, incidentally, in a world in which we learn less and less about the Government, who can know more and more about us—and it is a good principle of public life that any new body should be subject to freedom of information. The half argument is that, if it is suggested by the Government that this will cause practical difficulties for ARIA, I am perfectly happy for them to bring forward their own amendment saying that at a later stage they can review the operation of the Freedom of Information Act to see whether it has turned out to be very difficult.
The other argument in favour of making it subject to freedom of information is this. This is a new body. It will be given a not insubstantial sum of public money. It will be doing things the nature of which none of us around this Committee Room knows. If it is thought to be too secretive about what it is doing and in no shape or form accountable to Parliament, apart from the odd appearance by the chair or chief executive in front of the Select Committee in another place, there is a risk that ARIA’s work and reputation could be damaged. Freedom of information would protect ARIA against that risk. That is the other argument I put to the Committee in favour of the amendment.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I spoke on this at Second Reading and quoted Tony Blair. Just to remind the Committee, he said that the Freedom of Information Act was
“utterly undermining of sensible government.”
I do not think it is, but I think anybody in the public sector will attest that it is often very burdensome and extremely costly to operate. It was looked at relatively recently by a group, led I think by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and the conclusion was that on balance the law should remain as it is. But that does not mean that for every new body we should automatically apply the Freedom of Information Act requirements. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, was clear that if there was a case, the Opposition would support it.
It is worth looking at why an organisation such as ARIA might well be worthy of special consideration. Let us look further at what Tony Blair said:
“If you are trying to take a difficult decision and you’re weighing up the pros and cons, you have frank conversations … And if those conversations then are put out in a published form that afterwards are liable to be highlighted in particular ways, you are going to be very cautious.”
We do not want an organisation that is dragged into caution and risk aversion. We want one that is fully open internally to grappling with some very difficult issues.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 39 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. It is on something also asserted in Amendment 24 by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and, in the late runner, Amendment 32A, by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate. We all seek essentially the same outcome, targeting different parts of the Bill to avoid the avoidance of freedom of information.
It is always good to speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and strangely my opening assertion very much follows on from hers. Without our amendments, ARIA would follow in the footsteps of a very small number of institutions that currently do not have Freedom of Information Act obligations: the Royal Family; security and intelligence bodies such as MI5, MI6 and GCHQ; Special Forces; and the National Crime Agency. I think that is the list. There may be others, but I am pretty sure that is it. It gives noble Lords an idea of the sort of organisations. They do not seem to be natural paradigms to ARIA.
The noble Lord, Lord Willetts, will correct me, but the obstacles to innovation for funding bodies are many and various. Nowhere have I seen obligations to freedom of information as one of the things listed by those bodies as a barrier to innovation, or indeed invention. Indeed, as far as I can see, most if not all of ARIA’s client organisations—those it will fund—will be subject to the Freedom of Information Act, so where is the point in excluding ARIA itself?
In refuting me and others on this at Second Reading, the Minister said that
“robust arrangements are in place that will provide a clear picture to Parliament and taxpayers about how ARIA’s activities are funded and where it spends its money.”—[Official Report, 2/11/21; col. 1202.]
That is indeed the point, because ARIA will be holding the brush painting that picture. We will get to see what ARIA chooses to tell and show us about what it is doing. FoIs look at things from the opposite direction.
The Minister also points to the need for ARIA to be lean, and I absolutely agree with him on that, but I remind him and those who speak against these amendments why we are seeing growing evidence of huge levels of very worrying financial mismanagement across government contracting. It is because of the crony-type issues which the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, raised in her speech, which have a corrosive effect on institutions that need to be protected from any stain of impropriety. Transparency is very much that protection. By maintaining proper scrutiny, everybody can see that there are no problems and there is no favouritism going on. This will absolutely protect ARIA’s reputation.
ARIA will be substantially larger that many bodies already subject to freedom of information legislation. ARIA has no greater claim to avoiding complying with FoI legislation than any other public authority. Indeed, given its budget, there are compelling grounds for its inclusion. It is clear, through these three amendments, that we on this side find the current plan to exclude ARIA from the Freedom of Information Act’s provisions unacceptable. I feel sure that, between us, we can coalesce around a single amendment for Report. In the meantime, I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I will make two points. The first is in response to a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the other is in anticipation of a point that I think the Minister will make in his response to the debate.
The noble Baroness argued that the unique nature of this organisation should make it free from this burden. It will be unique here in the United Kingdom, but it is not a unique organisation. In fact, it is modelled on an organisation that has a history, and that is ARPA, which is now DARPA.
I will come shortly to the Minister’s rejection of that comparison at Second Reading, but I am moved to intervene because of data I have been given by the Campaign for Freedom of Information about the burden that freedom of information has been on ARPA and DARPA in the United States. Granted, the United States is a much more open society than ours, but ARPA and DARPA have been subject to the US Freedom of Information Act. It is incontrovertible that the need to answer FoI requests has not prevented them achieving successes that the Government here now wish to emulate. In fact, in the 11 years from 2009 to 2019, an average of 47 requests a year referring to DARPA were made to the US Department of Defense. It lived with that burden and has been the success that we all know and are seeking to emulate.
The Minister rejected this comparison, saying that there is a different freedom of information system in the United States of America. He referred to fees, and suggested that somehow the experience we have had of freedom of information thus far made it probable that ARIA would be prevented from being the lean machine focused on innovation that we all want to see if it was subjected to the burden of freedom of information.
Interestingly, 47 FoI requests per year is almost exactly the number of requests received by individual UK research councils before they were incorporated into UKRI. In 2017-18, the six research councils for which data was available to those who provided it to me received an average of 48 requests each. By comparison, in 2019 the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice each received nearly 5,000 requests. Maybe that is why the Government have this impression that everything they do is overburdened by FoI. It is not. Some things are, and there is a different politics about them than there will be about this.
I think that it is perfectly legitimate to make the comparison with the success of DARPA and ARPA, which have lived in an environment of openness and freedom of information. That is much more likely, on the data, to be the experience of ARIA, were it to be subject to the Freedom of Information Act, than the perception of any burden that a Minister may have from their own experience of FoI in another department.
Lord Broers (CB)
I would like to respond to that, which I find very interesting. I would like to know whether ARPA and DARPA have restraints on certain types of information. Having operated in industry in an R&D environment, I am familiar with the problems of what you have to keep secret and what you do not. In the American economy, by far the largest fraction of the vast amount of progress that is made is made in industry with private funds—and industry invests those private funds in R&D only if it can be assured that the products of that R&D will remain exclusive to it. I have been in situations where there has been industrial espionage and design manuals have been stolen for products that took billions to develop. Those thefts in the United States were of course prosecuted and those who obtained the information were fined large sums of money.
ARPA is going to be in that situation. It has to work with industry, using the results of its most advanced R&D, perhaps in new ways, to come up with new systems. It must be able to sign some memorandum of understanding, or in some way say to industry that it will protect from public knowledge that information. In an industry where you are relying primarily on novel processes, you do not tend to patent things, because patenting them puts them in the public domain. You rely on trade secrets and, to have a trade secret validated as a trade secret, you have to show that you have done enough due diligence to make sure that the information is not generally available to your competitors.
It has been a problem internationally for the past several decades that there has been international espionage on a large scale to obtain information from inside industries in the West. I ask the Minister whether that is being taken into account. Clearly, what the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and others have been saying is incontrovertible: we do not want the agency at risk because people are wasting vast sums of public money. On the other hand, you have to take into account that, if ARIA is to be successful and produce new capabilities that can be commercially exploited for the benefit of the UK, there must be adequate protection of what in industry is normally commercially sensitive and secret.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Fox, in his amendment, and other noble Lords in theirs have pointed to the anomaly of ARIA not being subject to the Freedom of Information Act, and it has been a great pleasure listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, quoting Tony Blair with approval—a rare delight.
The Government have put forward a number of weak reasons to justify ARIA not being subject to the FoIA, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, raised the first of them, the burden of responding to FoI requests—an extraordinary argument for a body that is going to have a budget of £500 million over the first three years. Many bodies subject to the FoIA have tiny budgets and staff numbers compared with those that ARIA will enjoy.
The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, called it costly, but will it be for ARIA? Interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raised a number of questions prompted by the comparison or assertion that the Minister made at Second Reading that, because we do not have to pay for access to freedom of information requests, they will be pouring into ARIA, unlike in the United States. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, actually the requests to each of the research councils is pretty much on a par with those that are put to DARPA. I do not think that that argument is there either.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I start with Amendment 24 from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, Amendment 32A from the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and Amendment 39 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which all deal with the Freedom of Information Act. As I said at Second Reading, our decision not to subject ARIA to FoI was made after much consideration. As on so many of these things, I find myself in full agreement with my noble friend Lady Noakes and I thank my noble friend Lord Patten for his support during the Second Reading debate.
I was hoping that some of my noble friends who have been in government would comment on how they found the Freedom of Information Act in government. From my point of view, it is a truly malign piece of legislation. At the risk of trashing his reputation even further in the Labour Party, I agree with Tony Blair on this matter. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that all information on government contracts et cetera should be published, even if it is embarrassing for the Government. However, I think he will find that all the contracts to which he refers were not released under freedom of information but under normal government contract transparency.
In my experience, not much is ever released under freedom of information that causes any problems for government; it is normally stuff that is released in the normal transparency of contract negotiations and government transparency returns. I am fully in favour of decisions, and information about them, being released, but I fail to see how the processology of government benefits at all from FoI disclosures. I find that people just modify their behaviour and communication to take account of the fact that private conversations may be released in the future. I genuinely do not think that it achieves anything at all, but that is my personal perspective and not necessarily a matter for this debate. It was also new to me to discover at Second Reading that the US charges a fee for freedom of information disclosures. I think that is an excellent idea, even if it is only a nominal amount to get rid of some of the somewhat spurious fishing expeditions that many go people in for. Anyway, that is a separate matter for different discussions.
In contrast to UKRI, which comprises the seven research councils, ARIA is a new, unique organisation that we anticipate will attract a disproportionate number of FoI requests for its size. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I would reiterate, as I did at Second Reading, that comparisons between ARIA and DARPA do not hold, precisely because, as I said, DARPA adds a standard fee to the requester, which is not comparable to the situation in the UK, although we should certainly consider it.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, if I may have the privilege of intervening—a wonderful feeling, having been under different rules for a period of time—does the Minister not accept what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said: that the individual research councils receive no more than the number of requests that DARPA receive, something of the order of 47? It is quite coincidental that the average is 47. Why does the Minister think that ARIA will be inundated with freedom of information requests?
Lord Callanan (Con)
Because it is a fairly new and exciting agency doing new things. I suppose we will have to disagree on that. There is no point and nothing to be gained by doing otherwise. In designing ARIA, we are envisaging a lean agency that will employ people in the tens. I do not know how many people across government are currently employed to respond to the hundreds if not thousands of FoI requests that we get, but given the bundles of documentation that sometimes pass my desk, there must be many hundreds of civil servants engaged in doing nothing other than responding to these fishing expeditions. As I said, ARIA will be an agency employing people in the tens, with around 1% of the R&D budget.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I invite him to reread what he said at Second Reading. He virtually invited people who are being refused the opportunity to ask ARIA questions to ask them of his department. Then it will be a true comparison. I invited him to compare an organisation of the nature of a research council with one such as DARPA, not to compare DARPA with a government department. At Second Reading, he himself listed a whole number of organisations, including government departments, that are subject to FoI. It is an invitation to people who are refused the discipline of talking to a smaller organisation in a proportionate way to flood a department with requests and take up even more time. With respect to the Minister, I think this is verging on an irresponsible attitude towards this argument, even in his own interests.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I can assure the noble Lord that people need no invitation from me to table FoI requests to my department. They are well capable of doing it. I think some people already have forms set up on their word processors to submit some of these things with gay abandon.
Anyway, in designing ARIA we are envisaging an agency that will be lean and streamlined. It will employ people in the tens, and we strongly believe that it needs to be agile and efficient. “Lean”, “streamlined” and “efficient” are not always words that are used to describe nominal usual public bodies. However, as my noble friend Lady Noakes has attested to, this context has always been at the forefront of our minds in bringing forward this Bill.
We have carefully considered which procedures are conducive to ARIA’s success. I recognise here that part of ARIA’s success depends on it gaining public trust and being transparent and accountable for its activities, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, called for. I believe that we have found the right balance in freeing this small agency to fund high-risk, critical research but to do it differently, with appropriate visibility to Parliament and taxpayers.
The noble Lord, Lord Broers, raised some concerns about the protection of technological gains in sensitive projects. I note at this point that there are, of course, existing commercial confidentiality exemptions to the FoI Act, as referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. All requests still require processing and we are conscious of this in making the decisions to exclude ARIA.
Much has also been said on transparency today in the contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate. I maintain that the right provisions to hold ARIA to account are the ones that I outlined at Second Reading. They are the publishing of an annual report and statement of accounts, which will be laid before Parliament, as set out in the Bill; being subject to annual audits by the National Audit Office; and being accountable to Parliament through the CEO, who will be the agency’s accounting officer.
In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has pointed out, ARIA will remain a BEIS arm’s-length body, and my department will work with ARIA’s leadership to agree the appropriate arrangements for its scrutiny and oversight in the interests of good governance.
We expect ARIA, as far as possible, to have a culture of transparency, and we hope that will be championed by its incoming leadership. Working across the R&D community, and indeed with Parliament and the public, to communicate ARIA’s activities will be critical to ARIA’s commercial and research success. Given that, I hope the Committee will understand that I cannot accept or agree with this amendment. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has a different opinion.
I turn now to the exemption the Bill affords ARIA from the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, and to Amendments 24 and 42 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. I think she omitted to speak in favour of her amendment, but I will respond to it anyway.
Our decision to exempt ARIA from the contracting authority obligations in the Public Contracts Regulations hinges on two critical expectations: first, that ARIA will be commissioning and contracting others to do research for it; and, secondly, that ARIA’s programme managers should be acting and investing with agility and speed. When ARIA is commissioning and contracting others to do research for it, it will be operating in a fundamentally different way from traditional R&D grant-making where procurement rules do not apply.
In my view, it is therefore appropriate for ARIA to be given freedom from procurement rules to ensure that the agency has greater flexibility in its contractual arrangements. However, to counterbalance that and to provide the assurance that this freedom will be used properly, we have provided a non-legislative commitment for an independent auditor to report annually on ARIA’s procurement activity. This measure, alongside ARIA’s robust conflict of interest procedures, the wider accountability I just talked about, and governance provisions, are an appropriate set of arrangements. I hope that reassures the Committee that we have taken all these matters into consideration and that this exemption is both essential to ARIA’s effective function and proportionate to the tasks it faces. Therefore, I invite noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I thank the Minister for responding to my amendment and speaking to Amendment 42, which I did not move; I am grateful to him for responding to something I did not say.
As he explained, the point of Amendment 42 was to include ARIA as subject to public contract regulations. I do not understand why it is not. These debates are all connected. We are constantly trying to push the Government to give us a bit more transparency and give ARIA more accountability, but they keep pushing us back. The Minister says that he wants a culture of transparency, but I do not see how that will come about as we are currently progressing.
As my noble friend Lord Browne said, ARIA is not unique and, as several noble Lords have said, it needs protecting from reputational damage. I make a plea to the Government not to allow ARIA to end up being called some sort of secret research agency, which is a real danger. When that kind of pressure starts, this agency will not stand a chance. Never mind the measures in the Bill about protecting it from being disbanded for 10 years; they will count for nothing. It would be very easy for a Secretary of State to get rid of this agency should the political pressure mount. That is what we are trying to avoid here.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, talked about the exemptions from FoI, which I hope reassures other noble Lords who talked about commercial interests and national security. Of course we would not want FoI to be used in a way that would harm ARIA, but that is already taken care of by the exemptions from FoI that already exist.
The Minister tried to say, “I don’t know why you’re so fussy about FoI. It never really tells us anything we wouldn’t already know.” I just had a quick look at what has been out in the past few weeks thanks to FoI. FoI revealed that 52% of councils spent nothing on electric vehicle charging, and the scale of data breaches at local authorities. FoI told us about the funding drop in early years in different regions of the country over the past quarter and about the number of operations cancelled by trusts. These are all things that we would not have been able to discover, except perhaps by a Parliamentary Question, if FoI were not available. It is important. It provides something that is unavailable by any other mechanism. Given the failure of the Government to take us up on any of our other suggestions for transparency, I am pretty confident that, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, we will return to this and push the Government hard on this issue at Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
“(4) If ARIA gives a grant, or part of grant, made to it under this section to another entity, the giving of the grant must be subject to the condition that a person or entity may not gain control of that entity for 5 years after the date on which the grant is given.(5) If ARIA gives a grant, or part of grant, made to it under this section for the purposes of supporting a specific asset, the giving of the grant must be subject to the condition that a person or entity may not gain control of that asset for 5 years after the date on which the grant is given.(6) In this section, “entity” means any entity, whether or not a legal person, that is not an individual, and includes a company, a limited liability partnership, any other body corporate, a partnership, an unincorporated association and a trust.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would ensure that any grant made by ARIA is subject to the condition that the entity or asset supported may not be subject to a takeover for 5 years.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 30 seeks to ensure that any grant made by ARIA is subject to the condition that the entity or asset supported may not be subject to a takeover for five years. I confess that, on reflection, this may more felicitously have been an amendment to Clause 2, which deals with the conditions of grants made by ARIA. As its tabling is for exploratory purposes, at least today, I do not think that matters, but if it comes back it will probably come back in a different form and as an amendment to a different clause.
On the first day of Grand Committee, the debate on the group of amendments led by Amendment 18 in the name of and moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, took about 20 minutes, and the phrase “intellectual property” was used 37 times. Introducing the debate, the noble Lord described the group as being
“about the way in which ARIA acquires, creates, disposes of, retains and shares intellectual property”,—[Official Report, 17/11/21; col. GC 127.]
so it is not really a surprise that the phrase was picked up.
In some senses, it is a pity that this amendment was not grouped with the noble Lord’s amendments, because the concerns that have given rise to the need for this amendment were to some extent aired in that debate. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, shared with us the extent to which there was concern in the United States that
“some of the public funding which has led to”
DARPA
“research has led to private as opposed to public gain.”—[Official Report, 17/11/21; col. GC 128.]
I share his concern about the extent to which we are creating such an opportunity, but more so about the extent to which such publicly funded research may lead to foreign, mainly US, private as opposed to British private or public gain.
Refinitiv data shows that, in the first half of 2021, buyout groups spent $45 billion snapping up companies in Britain—more than double the next-best first six months on record and almost 10% of the total $547 billion spent across the world. Am I to understand that British stocks’ discount to global peers is the deepest in more than three decades and that Brexit is one reason? I do not want to divert us into another debate, but Brexit is for good, not just for Christmas, so that situation may persist for a period.
On 17 November, reporting the Culture Secretary’s decision to announce a competition and national security investigation into the planned takeover of the British chip business Arm Holdings by the American multinational tech giant Nvidia, and coupling this with the recent news that Kwasi Kwarteng is investigating the proposed sales of defence suppliers Ultra Electronics and Meggitt to American suppliers on similar grounds, Ben Marlow, the chief City commentator of the Telegraph, wrote:
“For too long Britain has adopted a naive and unquestioning ‘help yourself’ approach to foreign takeovers. For a while it looked as though the … government would take an even more extreme laissez-faire approach as it sought to live up to its ‘Global Britain’ credentials but perhaps the penny has dropped in Westminster … It is a welcome shift in tone. Ministers routinely greet the sale of British companies to overseas buyers as a vote of confidence in this country’s prospects when it is nothing of the sort. It simply means foreign firms see the UK as easy pickings and an opportunity to make a quick buck. Hoisting a giant ‘for sale’ sign over your best and brightest companies is not sound industrial policy, it is an act of … self-harm.”
It will not be a surprise to anybody in your Lordships’ Committee that I am not used to quoting the Telegraph in debates or in support of my arguments. I do so because, in a sense, it may be a bit of an instruction to the Minister as to the attitude he ought to adopt to this issue. I do it because it may have more impact on the Minister.
I have tried twice now, in supplementaries to Questions in your Lordships’ House on these issues, to engage the Minister on what is actually happening in the United Kingdom to some of our best and brightest businesses and the effect it is having. I even quoted on one occasion the concerns of the Bank of England about the way these businesses are funded and the damage that this leveraged debt potentially poses to the economy of the United Kingdom in the long term, but he did not respond.
On another occasion, in relation to both the companies referred to in addition to Arm—Ultra Electronics and Meggitt—I pointed out that 85% of R&D in the defence industries in the United Kingdom is public money, and that the intellectual property of these businesses was in danger of leaving the United Kingdom, having been paid for by public money. That is exactly the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raised, although he did so in a slightly different context, and exactly the concern I have.
On none of these previous occasions did the Minister bite. With respect to him, he deployed a slightly less complacent version of the words the Telegraph’s city correspondent pointed out, but he deployed them nevertheless.
I close my remarks in support of this amendment by thanking the Minister for his gracious invitation to me over the last few days to indicate to him what lay behind it so that he could, if possible, give me the reassurance I sought. I responded with an even shorter version of what I have said to your Lordships’ Committee today. I hope he has the reassurance that I and others seek about how we will protect the product of this new initiative from being raided by the predators of venture capital funds in particular. I conclude with the words the Telegraph uses, that
“the Americans wouldn’t allow it to happen so why should we?”
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I am not as opposed to foreign takeovers as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, but I accept that there are some instances where this country is not well served by the ability of organisations outside the UK to cherry pick some of our best assets. The broad thrust is that foreign investment in the UK has been good for our economy—indeed, large amounts of our productive economy are owned by foreign businesses and they are an important part of the success of the UK economy—but I concede that there is a potential issue, especially when we deal with the kind of things we expect ARIA to fund.
However, I do not think the amendment works. It says that if ARIA gives a grant to an entity, it has to be subject to the condition that that entity cannot be taken over. That entity cannot give an undertaking that it cannot be taken over, because the people who will control who takes over an entity are the people who own the entity, which is not the same as the entity itself. While in some cases it might be a private company with two or three shareholders, which would probably be quite easy to deal with, if the shareholdings were much more dispersed it would probably be impossible to operationalise that sort of requirement. If there is a case, it needs another solution.
I also note that this is a bit of a sledgehammer. There could be very good reasons for an entity having the control over it changed. It could need greater access to capital to scale up whatever it has been looking at; it could have liquidity issues in taking its research and development to the next stage, before it even gets to scale up, and need the involvement of other partners; or it could just be that it makes sense to continue with whatever it has been looking at only if it is part of a larger organisation and subject to a merger or joint venture, where control would be ceded. If there is a problem, I do not think it can be met by this amendment.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for raising this very interesting issue. Without repeating verbatim what I said at Second Reading, one of the highlighted issues in delivering technology into the market in this country is not the invention phase but the scale-up—getting it beyond technology readiness level 7 and then getting it into the market and scaling up.
I discourage the noble Lord from using the phrase “predator” for venture capital. The money has to come from somewhere to deliver that scale-up, and I doubt that the Government will be the provider. The issue and challenge is that the VC industry in the United States is massive compared with what is available in UK-based funds, and thereby comes the lack of centricity about which the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, spoke. We should very much consider looking for a way for businesses that have an invention to take it to market. To some extent, this amendment is looking at the other end of the problem; it stops stuff happening rather than allowing it to happen in a different way. I am not sure that it is the answer, but its spirit is very important.
There is another unintended consequence I would be concerned about. In the event that an entity could avoid a takeover, by taking money from ARIA it would in essence lock itself away from any commercial activity that could be beneficial to it as a company, the country and ARIA’s intentions. A one-size-fits-all approach—“We give you the money and you can’t do any commercial activity”—is not in the spirit of what this seeks to achieve. Looking at this again, we need to find a way to deliver that scale-up story. That is really the issue facing this country, not the invention bit that somehow this agency is focused on.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I very much appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has brought forward his Amendment 30 in particular. It is very helpful to our debate and rather complements the discussion we had about ARIA’s ability to exploit the intellectual property it gives rise to and to place the right kind of conditions. We will come back to that on Report; it is important that we do.
I hope the Government can, if not necessarily amend the Bill extensively, certainly make it clear that ARIA, in exercising its functions, should seek not only to promote economic growth and benefit in the United Kingdom but to make sure that—in so far as the public have subscribed through ARIA to the creation of intellectual property—the benefits of that will accrue to ARIA and, potentially, the Government. I would say that they should accrue to ARIA, with the ability to promote follow-on research activity as a result. I am sure the noble Lord is not planning to press his amendment and recognises the risk associated with its structure and the chilling effect it might have on the entities that might otherwise apply for grants, assets or activity.
I will just inject this thought. A number of noble Lords here in Grand Committee were contributors to our discussions on the National Security and Investment Act, and I hope my noble friend the Minister will be able to give us some specific assurances about how Ministers can use National Security and Investment Act powers to secure the protections that the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, is looking for.
I worry that there may be gaps, because the National Security and Investment Act has its own criteria and thresholds, and this may relate to activities, projects and assets that do not fit within those criteria—but we none the less want the intellectual property created by ARIA to be protected in some way. So there may be a gap and we need to explore whether there is one and, if there is, how it might be secured: how ARIA, and Ministers through ARIA, can protect the value that might be derived from the intellectual property to which its projects give rise.
Lord Broers (CB)
My Lords, I rise to give the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, the very strongest support. We have talked around the issue of how we can solve the problem of losing our brilliant companies, because it is stunningly serious—and it is not just Arm and Nvidia. I am very pleased because I wrote to the Government about six months to a year ago to plead that the competitive agency should look at that, and it is at least looking at it now. The company Solexa was taken over by Illumina, having pioneered the successful way to decode DNA, and Illumina’s revenue flowed into the many billions—after the key technology had come entirely from the UK. These things should not have happened.
I ask whether we can add to the requirements on ARIA that incentives should somehow be given to our City, which has an appalling record of missing opportunities to invest in UK industries—creative industries in particular. It is all very well to talk about the scale of American venture capital: that is a very good point, but we can be very selective. Then perhaps we would not need a very big scale to look after companies such as Arm and Solexa—there was Verata before them, and several others that have left here almost with the certainty of being successful, and yet somehow we could not find our own funds to support them.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 31 in my name. It is a probing amendment to find whether the Minister would say a few words about how ARIA grants will interact with national security and our established defence industry. We have a very well-developed defence research capability in the UK. It is successful and world leading. I would like to understand how ARIA will relate to it.
I also fully support the amendment from my noble friend Lord Browne. I do not know anywhere near as much as he or many other noble Lords in this Committee do about the topic, but I was familiar with Cobham, which was based very close to Darlington: most people who worked there seemed to live in Darlington. Its substantial contribution in this field stretched over decades. I agree that we need to do whatever the Government think would work to deal with this problem. It seems to be a concern on all sides. If the amendment from my noble friend Lord Browne, is not the right one, or it this not the right clause, or perhaps not even the right Bill, there remains a concern that has been expressed that the Government would do well to respond to and let us know, if this is not the way they will deal with it, how they intend to tackle something that is clearly a concern of many noble Lords.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I rise briefly to support my noble friends Lady Chapman and Lord Browne. Amendment 31A is in my name. The Government saw fit to put Clause 5 in the Bill for a reason and I am sure the Minister, when he comes to reply, will refer to the reason why it is so important. Similarly, some of us on this side of the Committee feel that it is particularly important that, when those powers are exercised by the Secretary of State, Parliament knows about it at the time—not just in an annual report produced later. Also, with others, I think that there may be further scope to consider whether in this legislation or the National Security and Investment Act, which has already been referred to, there could be ways of furthering the arguments of my noble friend Lord Browne, if the Government are prepared to consider constructive ways forward.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for his comments on Amendment 30. I recognise that this is an issue that he cares deeply about, as do other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Broers. As we heard, the amendment relates to ARIA’s ability to attach conditions to grants to prevent the takeover of an asset or entity, but this Bill is not about the general conditions or, indeed, climate for takeovers of UK private business by US entities; rather, in tabling this amendment, the noble Lord has raised important questions about the benefits derived from public investment in R&D. I appreciate his sentiments about the UK retaining the benefits of ARIA’s funding and, as we discussed on Wednesday, Clause 2(6) gears ARIA towards considering the UK benefits of its activities.
The UK is a world-renowned destination for foreign investment and the UK economy has thrived as a result. We are open to foreign investment; the Government would be very concerned that placing further restrictions in the Bill could deter foreign investment in instances where it would be beneficial and, in some cases, might sit at odds with the wider principles held by the scientific community about the free exchange of ideas and the benefits of international collaboration in research and innovation. Although many noble Lords will share the concerns of the noble Lords, Lord Broers and Lord Fox, that we seek to incentivise the City to invest more funds in fledgling British businesses, as there is indeed considerably more private equity available in the US, that is not an issue that this Bill can solve.
However, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that, as set out in the R&D road map published last year, and the innovation strategy published this year, one of the Government’s key ambitions is to become world class at securing the economic and social benefits from research and to safeguard intellectual property. We are pursuing a range of activity to achieve this, and the Government are concerned that adding legislative constraints will impact our position as a free trade champion. ARIA will be expected to collaborate closely within the UK R&D landscape—with Innovate UK, the Catapult Network or private equity partners—to find clear onward paths to take the benefits of its programmes to the next level. This is indeed the challenge rightly identified by the noble Lord, Lord Fox.
Furthermore, the patent box tax incentive will support the retention of intellectual property in the UK by allowing businesses to pay a reduced rate of tax on profits arising from exploiting patents and other qualifying products. Its aim is to encourage the commercialisation of inventions by companies in the UK. I hope that the noble Lord will recognise that we are taking action on this issue outside of legislation. It might just come down to the ideological difference between protectionism and free trade.
On occasions where it is necessary, the National Security and Investment Act 2021 will give the UK Government robust powers to scrutinise and intervene in relevant acquisitions, such as takeovers, to protect national security. This Act will sit alongside the Secretary of State’s power in Clause 5 to give directions where it is necessary or expedient in the interests of national security. I hope that this will answer some of my noble friend Lord Lansley’s remarks.
Regarding Amendment 31 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the Government’s position is that ARIA must be able to operate with strategic autonomy. This includes making its own decisions on funding research, without influence from government. Clause 5 was designed to ensure that ARIA’s activities could be limited only if they posed a threat to the UK’s national security; for example, ceasing a particular contract or activities with parties from a particular jurisdiction, or ceasing activities on a specific technology. These powers are necessary to ensure that the Government can intervene to protect national security.
I assure the noble Baroness that it is not our intention to use these powers to require ARIA to spend any grants in the interests of national security concerns. Given the autonomy that ARIA will have from Ministers, it would be more appropriate to expect the Government to use other structures if any such need arose. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will understand the intention behind this clause and that there is no need for this amendment.
Finally, regarding Amendment 31A specifically, given the nature and sensitivity of national security directions, the Secretary of State may be required to respond urgently and privately and it would not be appropriate to publish all directions made under this section. ARIA’s annual report, which this amendment seeks to add to, will align with HMT’s financial reporting manual and the normal standards of reporting. I believe this will ensure the right level of information is provided to allow appropriate parliamentary and public scrutiny of ARIA’s activities, and I am therefore unable to accept this amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and particularly for engaging with the reasons behind the amendment more than its technical perfection, which I accept it lacks. However, I will have to read carefully what she has actually said to see whether it is the reassurance that a number of noble Lords are seeking—from listening carefully to their contributions—about protecting the jewel in the crown, as it were, which is at the heart of what the Government and everybody are trying to achieve in the current environment. I will come back to that in a moment.
I also correct the omission of not thanking the noble Lord, Lord Morse—who is a good supporter to have in these sorts of issues—for adding his name to my amendment. I also tender on his behalf his apologies that because of timing he could not be here to speak to the amendment. He may get another opportunity to speak to the issues that lie behind it at some other point in the consideration of this legislation.
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. They all added something to my knowledge and understanding of the issues I am trying to raise before the Committee in the context of this Bill. I hope there will be a collective, maybe holistic, solution to the different elements of this problem that have been identified.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for pointing out to me the complexity of the area that I am in because of the different forms of organisations that will be involved. I am familiar with some of this, but clearly not as familiar as she is. However, I encourage her not just to assume that every takeover is a foreign investment. It appears to me that the more I go into this, the more that I discover that it is a not a foreign investment. I go back to the article in the Telegraph, which I quoted liberally. Ben Marlow, the chief City commentator of the Telegraph—to whom I am deeply indebted—says:
“Moreover, ministers repeatedly conflate real investment with opportunistic takeovers when they couldn’t be more different.”
He then goes on to give examples of what he thinks are real investment, and Nissan is right up there, as you would imagine.
I am impressed by that and think I understand it. However, I understand it even better when I read the Financial Stability Report of the Bank of England in October 2021, when it points out that there is a developing danger to our economy in the leveraged loan markets with:
“the trend of increased prevalence of looser underwriting standards has continued, which increases risks to end-investors.”
It goes on to say:
“Recent UK leveraged lending flows have in part been driven by a surge in private equity investment in UK businesses: 2021 private equity investment is on track to exceed its 2019 level, which itself was a strong year.”
In a broader discussion of the indebtedness of this country, it highlights this in particular, which suggests to me that these takeovers have been funded by leveraged loans.
Because I have an interest in sport, I have followed carefully certain takeovers that got a lot of coverage in the sporting media, and I can see how that could work. I am not totally convinced that these are all properly foreign investment. I agree that they have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis, but if the Bank of England is worried, I am worried.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Lansley and Lord Broers, for their helpful and supportive contributions, and my noble friends Lord Stansgate and Lady Chapman for their support. All speakers came at this issue from a different perspective, as did the Minister. This issue is worth taking away to see whether there is a holistic way to deal with it in this complex context.
Before I withdraw my amendment, I conclude by apologising to the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for anticipating that her male colleague would answer. That is not because I am inclined to look for men before I look for women in any context; it was simply because he was the Minister who wrote to me about this and the one to whom I responded. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Stansgate
“(4) If the Secretary of State issues directions under this section then those directions must be reported to each House of Parliament and subsequently listed in the annual report made by ARIA to the Secretary of State.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the House to be notified if the Secretary of State issued directions to ARIA on national security grounds.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
I will move the amendment, but I am about to withdraw it. In withdrawing it, could I say to the Minister—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
I think the noble Viscount is trying to say that he is not moving Amendment 31A. Am I correct?
“(2A) ARIA must provide the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology with such information, in such form, as the Chair of that committee may request, including by sending representatives of ARIA to appear before the committee.This is subject to subsections (4) and (5).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would allow the Chair of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee to request information from ARIA on its operation.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. I will try to change gear and be very brief. The amendment would allow the chair of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee to request information from ARIA on its operation. It would place a role for the committee in the Bill. In our view, it is another way to protect ARIA’s reputation.
I am sure the Minister will say that this is unnecessary, as the Science and Technology Committee can always have an inquiry, so we need not bother. This is true, and I agree that ARIA representatives can be questioned, but we should remember the culture of secrecy that the Government are unnecessarily cloaking this organisation with. There is no guarantee that ARIA will feel compelled to respond in full, and it might use this narrative that the Bill is creating around its specialness.
I recall the debate that many of us had when we discussed the National Security and Investment Bill. Several of us were there. There, too, we discussed the need for oversight of issues that might need to remain secret. At the time, the Minister—this Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan—was adamant that the appropriate Select Committee, the BEIS Select Committee, could be empowered to receive secret and confidential information. There was much debate and the Minister was strident in his view that this committee could do that job. The National Security and Investment Bill envisaged the handling of vastly more secret secrets than we are talking about here.
So the idea of trusting the Science and Technology Select Committee to scrutinise ARIA and maintain genuine secrets is consistent with how the Government have already said they want to work elsewhere. For that reason, I expect the Minister to welcome this tidying amendment, which would bring the Bill into line with his thinking on other legislation. I beg to move.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Fox. It seems entirely appropriate that this committee should involve itself in asking for information from ARIA. I am fairly confident, given the Minister’s responses so far, that he would not share that view. This is the same theme that we have been on throughout all our deliberations. Whether it is this specific proposal, or one of the others that we have been trying to tempt the Government with, I am sure that we will be back at this in a couple of weeks’ time.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
This has been such a short debate that it is barely worth winding up. I will just reinforce the point that this is a cultural issue, in the sense that we are trying to get over here. It was interesting that the Minister made the rather runic comment that ARIA will interact with Select Committees of this House and the other place in the normal way. I think what we are trying to do is underline the fact that we need rather more than that; we need disclosure as well—otherwise, we are worried that we will not get that. Good heavens, the committee might even look at the framework document when it eventually sees the light of day. How about that? That would be quite novel.
One has seen the benefit of committee reports. The Science and Technology Committee has made extremely constructive comments around ARIA and UKRI. It has demonstrated the benefit of parliamentary scrutiny. Why do the Government think that parliamentary oversight is such a bad thing?
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
I rise briefly to emphasise the points made by both Front Benches and to say that the Government should welcome an amendment that enables ARIA to be subject to investigation by both Select Committees in both Houses. One of the strengths of Parliament is its Select Committee system, and the reputation of the Science and Technology Committee in another place is very high. I think that, when the Government look back on ARIA in 2031, they will rather wish to have put on record their support for amendments such as this, for the reasons given.
Lord Callanan (Con)
Well, it may surprise the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, to know that I largely agree with what she had to say on this. I agree with the sentiments that Select Committees should continue to scrutinise the work of arm’s-length bodies. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, interactions with Select Committees are governed by a different set of rules. They are governed by a long-standing convention set out in the Osmotherly rules, which indicate that members of arm’s-length bodies
“should be as helpful as possible in providing accurate, truthful and full information when giving evidence”
to Select Committees. Furthermore, under the House’s Standing Orders, Select Committees have the power to
“send for persons, papers and records”
relevant to their terms of reference, and for anyone to refuse such a request would be considered contempt of the House.
Finally, as I have said separately, ARIA’s CEO will be personally responsible to the Public Accounts Committee, as the accounting officer. So I do really believe that Select Committees do not need our help in legislation, and probably would not want it, to be able to do their job properly and efficiently. Such guidance is sufficient for ensuring a co-operative relationship between other public bodies and the relevant committees across both Houses. We have not set these things out in legislation before, and I do not believe it should be any different for ARIA.
I hope, therefore, that, with the assurances I have been able to set out—that ARIA will work with Select Committees in the normal way, as other arm’s-length bodies do—it will not be necessary to include any specific provisions in the Bill to enable it to happen.
Lord Fox (LD)
I thank the Minister for his response and noble Lords for their contributions. I shall read closely the exact words in Hansard but, once again, the Minister seems unaware of the culture of suspicion that the Bill will create around this organisation. That did not need to happen and, in the end, the organisation does not deserve to have that as it sets off on its already difficult task. That said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the power to treat legislative references to the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as references to another body which will be unnecessary as a result of the power to modify, amend, repeal or revoke those references under the power introduced by the Minister’s amendment at page 4, line 4.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, the Government have brought forward Amendments 35, 36, 44, 45, 46 and 48 in response to your Lordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill. I take this opportunity to thank the committee very much for its careful consideration of the Bill and the important scrutiny it has provided. One of its recommendations was that the power to make consequential provision currently contained in Clause 10 is too broad and should be omitted. I have reflected on the committee’s position and consequently given notice of my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill. Amendment 36 would introduce a much narrower and more specific power to make consequential amendments into Clause 8—the only remaining place it would be required.
So I will start by saying that the power to dissolve ARIA through draft affirmative regulations made under Clause 8 is, I believe, an important part of the Bill. Although the DPRRC also raised concerns about this power, there is a strong policy rationale and a clear precedent for this particular delegation of power. As the power can be exercised only 10 years after the Bill receives Royal Assent, I hope that that will give your Lordships sufficient indication of our long-term commitment to ARIA. We have clearly heard that patience will be essential if ARIA is to successfully pursue its most ambitious research and innovation. It must therefore have the opportunity to prove itself before it is judged. I therefore welcome the Commons Science and Technology Committee’s recognition in its report into ARIA that
“these projects will take a long time, potentially 10-15 years, to ‘bear fruit’”.
In terms of precedent, under powers set out in the Public Bodies Act 2011, several bodies established by primary legislation have been dissolved using secondary legislation. The Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, for example, was created by the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and abolished using powers in the Public Bodies Act in 2013. I of course recognise that the super-affirmative procedure was applied in such instances, but in that particular case this was appropriate in the context of much broader powers. The Public Bodies Act gave Ministers delegated powers not just to abolish bodies but to merge them or change their governance structure and functions. This was also in the context of widespread public body reform, and it was therefore appropriate that the use of the powers was subject to a higher level of scrutiny.
In contrast, the power in Clause 8 is narrow, such that ARIA can only be dissolved. It cannot be merged or have its functions or governance changed in any way, as set out in my response to the DPRRC last week. I hope I have therefore provided sufficient reassurances that this power is justified.
I turn to the revised power to make consequential provision that Amendment 36 introduces. The first thing to say is that consequential provision could now be made in consequence of regulations made only under Clause 8, rather than any provision of the Bill, which represents a substantial narrowing of the previous power contained in Clause 10, which I will oppose.
The second point to emphasise is that, as a result, the power could be exercised only on one occasion, obviously. ARIA can be dissolved only once, and there would be a single opportunity to make consequential amendments in this way. However, ARIA could not be dissolved for at least 10 years, so at least 10 years’ worth of legislation will be passed or made before the power to make consequential amendments could be exercised. It is likely that there will be references to ARIA in those 10 years of future legislation. This amendment extends the power to make consequential amendments to legislation whenever passed or made, so references to ARIA that might appear in future can be removed, leaving a tidy and orderly statute book. I hope that all noble Lords agree that this is a sensible approach.
The final point to make here is that, as a result of this change to the power to make consequential provision, minor and technical changes to other parts of the Bill are required. Amendments 35, 44, 45, 46 and 48 to Clauses 8(4)(e), 11, 12 and 14 fall into that category. These correct the Clause 8 provisions and those on regulations, interpretation and commencement to reflect the replacement of Clause 10. They are consequential on that substantive change and are therefore necessary.
I hope that noble Lords will take a similar view and recognise that, in bringing forward these amendments, we are both taking the right approach and demonstrating the Government’s commitment to engage with and act on the DPRRC’s recommendations. I therefore beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
I draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that, in this group, government Amendments 44, 45, 46 and 48 do not appear as government amendments on the printed list.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. Without sounding whiny, this would have benefited from a “Dear colleagues” letter in advance. It caused me a little head scratching over the weekend when I was trying to fathom the purpose of these amendments, which the Minister has now told us. I guess it kept me busy.
We are delighted that the Government have accepted one of the two recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I am speaking to oppose the Question that Clause 8 stand part of the Bill. As the Minister referred to, this is the other recommendation of the DPRRC. That committee was clear in its assessment of the Bill:
“Although ARIA is to be created by Act of Parliament, clause 8 allows Ministers to dissolve it by an affirmative statutory instrument. They cannot do so for another ten years and they must consult ARIA before doing so. They do not have to offer any reasons.”
The DPRRC continues:
“We object to this on principle. If Parliament creates a body, it should be for Parliament to dissolve the body. It should not be for Ministers to dissolve it by statutory instrument, even an affirmative instrument.”
The DPRRC could not be clearer. The Minister’s response to that was simply that he did not agree. We knew he would not agree, but this is a very influential committee and what it says matters.
Although I am calling for Clause 8 not to stand part of the Bill, there are parts of that clause that the Government might want to salvage. This gives the Government an opportunity to come back, perhaps with another lengthy set of amendments on Report. It is a chance for the Minister to accept the view of this influential committee, just as he has on Clause 10.
The Minister will point to the fact that this statutory instrument is affirmative, but he will do so knowing that this is a poor alternative. The dissolution of ARIA will throw up issues—not the sort of issues faced by the organisation that the Minister chose to use as an example of one which a statutory instrument has been used to dissolve in the past. For example, when and if ARIA comes to be dissolved, the fate of assets will be crucial. By then, the taxpayer will probably have poured billions of pounds into creating those assets. Parliament needs a say on how they will be allocated in future yet, as we know, statutory instruments are unamendable—take it or leave it. As I have often rehearsed on other Bills, your Lordships’ House virtually always takes them, sometimes with a touch of regret, but takes them none the less. Primary legislation, however, is amendable. It gives Parliament a role in deciding the fate of the organisation and these assets, which, I remind the Government, the taxpayers have created through their investment. That is just one of the recommendations of the DPRRC. It should be honoured. I beg to move.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I have a lot of sympathy with what he has to say. We welcome the government amendments, which act on the concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and remove Clause 10 from the Bill. We can only hope that this is something of a sign of good habits to come and that the Government will prove attentive to the committee’s concerns about other legislation.
On Clause 8, where the Government have chosen not to act on the committee’s objection, rather than repeat everything that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, just said, I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I think the best way to sum up the DPRRC’s concern over the clause is that the Government were designing the law for convenience rather than necessity. It also made the point that, after 10 years or longer of ARIA’s operation, the agency would be well established and dissolving it might be a bit more complicated than Clause 8 suggests. Let us hope that ARIA makes it to 10 years.
We are content with the changes made by this group, but it would be helpful to the Committee for the Minister to respond in a bit more detail to some of the concerns. Can he outline how the Government envisage the winding down of ARIA would be managed? In particular, how would parliamentarians be kept informed and, aside from ARIA, who does he think it might be a good idea to consult before bringing forward regulations under Clause 8?
Lord Callanan (Con)
I can be very brief, because I do not have a lot to add to what I said earlier, beyond acknowledging to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that it might have been helpful for me to write a “Dear colleagues” letter informing him and other Members that we had tabled these amendments. They did have the information in advance, but it may have been more helpful specifically to draw noble Lords’ attention to it.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, I have set out why we think the power is justified. In terms of asking us to set out further thoughts on how we might wind it down, we have not even established it yet. Beyond taking the power potentially to do this in 10 years’ time, on the specific circumstances in which this might arise and what might happen in consequence, Parliament will clearly be kept informed through the normal statutory instrument process—
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I have to respond because of the mocking tone of the Minister. He said I should not be asking how he would be winding this up—but it was he who put in the clause about winding up the agency that he is trying to create, so I do not think it is unreasonable to press him on exactly how that might be implemented.
Lord Callanan (Con)
Certainly I apologise to the noble Baroness if she interpreted my remarks as mocking: I was not at all implying that. I was just pointing out that we are still in the process of setting up the agency and recruiting the senior leadership team. I am justifying why the power is in the Bill. The noble Baroness asked me to set out further thoughts on how we might write down something that might happen in 10 years’ time. I will write to her if there is any further information, but I think I am correct in saying that not a great deal of thought has been given to how we might abolish something that we have not yet set up. I did not intend a mocking tone: it was just a point of fact.
I do not have anything to add to what I said earlier. We think the power is justified and there is a precedent for this—but I totally accept that this might be a point of difference between us.
Baroness Noakes
“Protection of ARIA’s independence
In exercising functions in respect of ARIA, the Secretary of State must have regard to the need to protect its independence.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would require the Secretary of State to have regard for the need to protect ARIA’s autonomy.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, at the request of my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and with the agreement of the Committee, I will move her amendment. My noble friend had hoped we would have a third Committee day and would go slowly today so that she could move it herself on Wednesday. However, she realised earlier this afternoon that that was not going to be the case, so I agreed to move it. I will be as brief as possible, because this is a relatively small point. The intention of the amendment is to underline the Government’s commitment to the independence of ARIA, and it requires the Secretary of State to protect the independence of ARIA.
My noble friend tabled the amendment because she heard the discussions on our first day in Committee about the purpose of ARIA and its mission, including whether it should be directed to act only in certain areas, particularly in relation to climate change. She was very concerned to ensure that the spirit of ARIA—that it should be unencumbered and able to think the unthinkable wherever it wants to pursue its issues—should be preserved.
Obviously, huge amounts of money are spent on research and development overall by the Government and by other organisations in the economy, all of which are subject to lots of different kinds of checks and balances, and controls and directions. But ARIA is supposed to be very different, and it would be easy to start altering the way in which it worked: for example, by attaching conditions to grants that are made to it, and by constraining or confining what it did, using the powers in the Bill. But ARIA is going to be a success only if it is genuinely independent of government, if it is not dancing to the Government’s tune in any sense, and if it is allowed to go wherever it wants in seeking new areas for research and innovation. I think the Committee understands that ARIA’s independence from government should be preserved.
So this very small amendment underlines the concepts that we believe underlie the creation of ARIA, and I hope that it will be helpful to the Government in enshrining its independence from government. I beg to move.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I just want to make a quick observation about this. Obviously, we have argued to have climate as ARIA’s overriding priority, and we stand by that—but should that not be the case, this amendment would not cause any problems were it not for the fact that the Government were declining amendments on oversight and scrutiny. I do not think that the two are incompatible. You can have an independent agency, and we would not wish to have government interference, but there is no compromising of independence by allowing for freedom of information or some of the other measures that we have suggested.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I took the time to discuss this amendment with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on completely representing her views on it—but, strangely, we approach this from opposite directions and land in the same place, similarly to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman. There is a false dichotomy here. Just because an organisation has a purpose does not mean to say that it cannot be independent. On that basis, it is important for it to be independent, and it is equally important for it to have a purpose—and that purpose should be climate change.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for her comments and for stepping so ably into the breach to represent my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe in her amendment. It is perfectly right that we have returned once again to the central issue of ARIA’s independence, because it is a core part of equipping it for its unique funding approach and for the distinct contribution that we expect it to make to the UK’s R&D landscape.
I support the ambition for the Secretary of State to be mindful of protecting ARIA’s independence in all its interactions with the organisations, where such interactions are required by the Secretary of State’s very limited functions. However, I differ with my noble friend on how we protect its independence in a practical way. I submit that it would be the accumulation of many small things—perhaps creeping influence over strategy, new mechanisms of oversight, or ever-increasing reporting demands on issues of political priority—that would be the arena in which ARIA’s independence would be compromised or lost.
My noble friend Lord Willetts, who is not in his place, spoke eloquently on Wednesday about the challenges he has experienced in trying to carve out space for new approaches in the current R&D system. At that stage, we also had a fairly extensive debate on the accumulated obligations placed on ARIA. We considered how those obligations might be balanced with this vital principle of independence, in the context of amendments which, I believe, would have diminished ARIA’s autonomy in a way that would have been entirely counterproductive. If we truly wish to safeguard ARIA’s independence, it is on those issues that we must look to do it, and there is no easy alternative.
I do not suggest that this is a moment to reopen that debate, but I submit that we cannot have this conversation on independence in an abstract way, divorced from consideration of the practical and operational ways in which it will or will not be given to ARIA. I am sure that there will be plentiful opportunities to discuss this important issue in future. I hope, on the basis of the reassurances I have been able to provide, that my noble friend will, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, feel able to withdraw the amendment today.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, let me thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that independence is not incompatible with the Freedom of Information Act and other aspects that are included in the proposition for ARIA in this Bill. However, I do not think that independence is compatible with prescribing that it should focus only on climate change. We will have to agree to differ on that point.
The point of this amendment was that the Secretary of State had to respect the independence of ARIA, not that everybody else had to respect that independence, and I am not sure that I got the ringing endorsement of the Secretary of State not interfering in ARIA. However, we have had a good debate, and I am sure that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe will enjoy reading it in Hansard. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the amendments that would have treated the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as a reserved matter in relation to Scotland and Northern Ireland and funding provided to it through the Science and Technology Act 1965 as a reserved matter in Scotland.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, the Bill as introduced to the House added ARIA to the lists of reserved bodies within the three devolution Acts. That approach would have conferred on ARIA the same constitutional status as UKRI, which is the UK’s primary public R&D funder. More importantly, it would also have ensured ARIA’s independence by placing it outside the competence of the devolved legislatures.
Since then, my ministerial colleagues and officials have been in close discussions with all three devolved Administrations throughout the passage of the Bill, on the need for legislative consent Motions to be passed in the Scottish Parliament, the Senedd and the Northern Ireland Assembly. During those discussions, principled objections were raised to the creation of ARIA as a reserved body. As a result, we have worked—as I am sure the Committee would expect us to do—to develop an alternative way of guaranteeing ARIA’s independence, through something called the “agreement on the independence of ARIA”, which all four Administrations of the UK have said that they will abide by, and which will sit beneath the overarching memorandum of understanding on devolution.
I am delighted that the text of this document has now been agreed by all four Administrations of the UK and that we have been able to share it with noble Lords in advance of this discussion. I apologise for the fact that we were not able to provide the opportunity for noble Lords to consider this document at greater length before the Committee. However, I wanted to share it as soon as possible, albeit fairly shortly in advance, rather than not sharing it at all. I am confident that this agreement will allow ARIA’s important characteristics to be protected. On that basis, I am content to remove, through Amendments 37 and 40, the reservations that we originally placed in the Bill.
ARIA will remain a single UK-wide organisation able to find and fund the most exciting projects in all regions and nations of the UK. Through the agreement, all four Administrations of the UK have committed to upholding the important principles of ARIA’s strategic autonomy, operational autonomy and minimal bureaucracy.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My noble friend referred to the agreement having been shared with us, but I am not aware of having seen it or where it was shared with me.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My noble friend also sent a letter to me following last week’s Committee; that was shared only with the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton. My noble friend’s department has form on not sharing widely with those in Committee when things are circulated. Can he go back to his department to ensure that all active members of the Committee get access to all the information circulated in response to its deliberations?
Lord Callanan (Con)
My apologies—we shared it with those who had contributed to the debate on the subject previously. In retrospect, we should perhaps have shared it more widely; we will now do so.
As my noble friend Lady Bloomfield set out last week, all four Administrations are equally committed to facilitating ARIA’s seamless operation throughout the UK. I hope that this will provide some comfort, in particular to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who raised some important points on this issue at the time. My department will remain as ARIA’s sponsoring department to reflect the power of the UK Secretary of State, who alone has the power to fund ARIA through Clause 4 of the Bill. In our view, the accountability for that use of public money must therefore flow through the UK Government.
In addition to these protections for ARIA’s autonomy, the agreement provides an input mechanism from a new forum of science advisers to the four Administrations of the UK, directly to ARIA’s executive leadership. While there will be no obligation for ARIA specifically to respond to this input, the scientific challenges relevant to the policy priorities of all four Governments will be jointly communicated.
I appreciate that noble Lords have raised questions on how this will work in detail. At the moment this is necessarily a high-level document and clearly there is more work to do, at a working level, to flesh out this agreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. This work is ongoing and will be the subject of further work in the months to come. However, as a result of it, Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have all now given in-principle consent for the Bill on the basis of this approach. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will similarly be able to support it. I beg to move.
Lord Lansley (Con)
It was my intention to contribute to this debate briefly. Since the Minister has referred to the agreement, I probably ought to read it and digest it before venturing any additional comments.
I just point out to the Minister that the timing of all this is very odd. As far as I could have seen, and as I understood it in preparing for this debate, as of 9 November the Scottish Minister was not in the position of thinking that there was any agreement with the Government. He wrote to the convener of the Scottish Parliament on 9 November, set out the sequence of events stretching back to March, said that the Scottish Government, like the Welsh Government, were not in a position to agree legislative consent and gave the reasons he would not do so.
These amendments went down on 12 November, I think, so somewhere between 9 and 12 November the Government decided to do this thing. During the course of last week, they must have immediately entered into discussions with the devolved Administrations on the basis that they would give legislative consent. They have made clear all the way through that if it was not reserved, they supported the principle of the Bill and would give legislative consent to it. Now we are presented with this agreement and the consequences.
My noble friend is absolutely right; there are consequences. We had a debate last Wednesday about the role of the Chief Scientific Adviser in relation to the board, and the devolved Administrations have been looking for their chief scientific advisers to have the same status as the United Kingdom Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser. I think that is not what they are looking for now; it clearly would be unhelpful were that to be the case. It would have been helpful to have told us about that in the course of that debate last Wednesday and to have prefigured the fact that we come on to this at a later stage.
At the end of the day, they get money. Unless I am missing something, if you shift something from a reserved matter to a devolved competence, Barnett consequentials flow from that. What are they? How is the budget to be divided? Is it to be divided or is it going to be added to by way of the Barnett consequentials? I think we should be told that. Will that therefore mean that we anticipate that the other devolved Administrations will make grants to ARIA? Does this agreement suggest that there will be a pooled budget with grants made by the Secretary of State but that because of the nature of ARIA’s independence the grants will be in a global sum with few, if any, conditions attached to them and the devolved Administrations are agreeing to that? It begs questions. At the moment, I for one cannot debate the consequences of this set of changes because we do not have the information on which to do it. Even if we maybe let it through on the grounds that it helps to get the legislative consents through, I think we may have to return to some of the consequentials on Report.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, because he shares some of my concerns. I thank the Minister for communicating the information earlier today. Obviously I will read the actual agreement with great interest, but of course one accepts the noble Lord’s assurance that this agreement stands and will operate effectively.
The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raises a good point about the previous objections of the devolved Administrations, which now appear to have been withdrawn. At what date can we expect legislative consent Motions to come forward from the devolved Administrations?
I also have a detailed question. In an earlier debate, my noble friend Lord Fox made the point that having a purpose is not at war with the concept of independence for an organisation. I was thinking of that point as I read the paragraph in the Minister’s communication that says the agreement
“allows for the UK Government Chief Scientific Advisor, and scientific advisors or equivalent representatives on behalf of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to jointly communicate to ARIA the scientific challenges relevant to the policy priorities of their respective administrations. In keeping with ARIA’S autonomy, there will be no obligation for it to direct funding towards these issues.”
That worries me slightly. I am not arguing that ARIA should follow the separate views of the four nations, but if all four nations, via their scientific advisers, were to say to ARIA that one of the most important government priorities should be the road to zero carbon—I very much hope they would say that—would the Government really be happy for ARIA to invest in and champion a technology that increases CO2 emissions? There are serious, fundamental points, rather than points of detail, that we still need to take into account on ARIA’s purpose and it working with the grain of government policy—not dotting every “i” and crossing every “t” but working with the grain of public policy.
Finally, I underline the concerns and questions about Barnett consequentials. I will not repeat the point; it is absolutely clear that this will have implications. I look forward to the expressed views of the devolved Administrations and the detail of the agreement when it becomes public. Given the information we have been given today, I am sure it will be possible for us to scrutinise it before Report.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
It was slightly surprising to get this agreement so late in the day. Although I have seen that it exists, I cannot pretend that I have properly digested it or discussed it with colleagues in, for example, the Welsh Assembly. I would have been very keen to do that. It is very clear that a legislative consent Motion was not going to be forthcoming as things stood and that if the Government wanted ARIA to embark with support from the devolved Administrations they had to do something. There is now this agreement.
I would accept the Minister’s assurance, but can he clearly confirm that this agreement is not just his but has been reached with the devolved Administrations and that they are all fully signed up to it, before we allow this to go through? My life will not be worth living if I go back to my office and find that we have agreed to something that has not secured the full support of—to pick one at random—the Welsh Assembly. I would really appreciate it if the Minister could confirm that. Can he also speak to this issue of Barnett consequentials, which I had not considered would be part of the debate? How do the Government think this would or would not have any consequentials for funding for the devolved Administrations?
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I rise to be genuinely helpful to the Minister. It appears that I am the most privileged Member of this Committee; everyone’s correspondence seems to be copied to me, although I am not sure if in this case it was a privilege, as I got it exactly one hour and five minutes before the Committee was due to sit. It has a draft agreement of 19 clauses, one of which refers to other agreements—too many for me to count in the small print I have on my phone—so I have not given it any serious consideration.
I think it was copied to me because I raised a question in an intervention to seek assurance that all aspects of this legislation that engaged with devolution issues had been agreed with the devolved Administrations. It turns out that there were at least aspects still under discussion. I understand that that can happen. I suggest that, because of the complexity of this, the Government arrange a meeting, between now and the next time most of us meet again at the next stage of this Bill, with interested parties to explain the situation with devolution. If the Government agree that there are Barnett consequentials—even if they do not, but can be persuaded that, in not agreeing, they are wrong—they can then say how they will deal with that significant complexity.
We must thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for raising in some detail last time we met where we stand on all these issues. None of us was comfortable with any of this and none of us was as sited as the Government were of everything that is going on. At the very least, there should be the offer of some engagement with Members of this Committee who are interested in these issues and would raise them in some context on Report. This should happen in sufficient time before Report for it to be meaningful, so that some of these matters, which may lend themselves to simple enough explanations, can be put to bed.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, this has obviously been an unsatisfactory semi-debate. That dissatisfaction has rung out in various corners of the Room. The advice of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, seems good; if we continue on our current trajectory, Wednesday afternoon will have some time in it. I will not repeat the questions which have been raised, but I add another which we would like to address on Wednesday afternoon when the Minister calls us together to explain. Is this outwith the framework agreement process? Is there a separate process going on? I add that to the list of unanswered questions.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank noble Lords for their comments. First, on the agreement, the text has been agreed by Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I thought it best to share it as soon as possible; I wanted to share it in advance—it was not far in advance but it was slightly in advance—rather than not share it at all. We originally committed to sharing it ahead of Report; I will ensure that all noble Lords have the opportunity properly to scrutinise it ahead of that and we can return to the issue then. Once noble Lords have had an opportunity to discuss it, I would be very happy to arrange a further briefing with officials for anyone interested in this subject.
Lord Callanan
“Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003
6A_ In section 61L(1) of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (meaning of “public authority”), after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency,”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the Advanced Research and Invention Agency to be a public authority for the purposes of Chapter 10 of Part 2 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (workers’ services provided through intermediaries to public authorities or medium or large clients).
Lord Callanan (Con)
Amendments 38, 41 and 43 are consequential on the omission of Clause 10 from the Bill and the narrowing of the power we talked about earlier to make consequential amendments through regulations. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee suggested that any necessary consequential amendments should be added to Schedule 3, so we are responding to that recommendation here. The amendments apply to ARIA a set of relevant obligations that would usually apply to “public authorities”, which are sometimes defined in reference to Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000, which, of course, ARIA is not listed in. Bespoke provisions therefore are required.
I will briefly summarise the obligations that will apply to ARIA as a result of these amendments. The first relate to the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 and the Social Security Contributions (Intermediaries) Regulations 2000, with which I am sure all noble Lords are intimately familiar. This legislation includes the off-payroll working rules, which are designed to ensure that individuals working like employees but through their own company—usually a personal service company—pay broadly the same income tax and national insurance contributions as those who are directly employed. These rules have been reformed over the past five years to improve compliance by moving the responsibility for determining whether the off-payroll working rules apply from the individual’s personal service company to the client engaging them. That reform came into effect in the public sector in April 2017, and in the private and voluntary sectors on 6 April this year. I do not believe that there is a justification for ARIA to be treated differently from any other public bodies here.
The second element is the Data Protection Act 2018, which gives the GDPR effect in UK law. Through the Bill as it was introduced, ARIA would already be subject to the normal requirements of the GDPR, but the obligations on public authorities are different, in terms of the bases for data processing and governance and oversight arrangements. Similarly, in this case, I do not believe that there is a justification for ARIA to be treated differently from other comparable bodies in this important area.
Finally, the amendments to the Enterprise Act 2016 and Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 allow us to avoid a situation where ARIA is considered part of the private sector for the purposes of business impact assessments of regulatory activities. Again, I do not believe that it is appropriate for impacts to ARIA, as a public sector body, to be included in any such considerations. I also do not believe that it would be appropriate for ARIA to avail itself of the support available through the office of the Small Business Commissioner, which is intended for private sector entities. So, while public authority obligations in other legislation have been considered, they were not assessed to be sufficiently relevant to ARIA to make further amendments here. I beg to move.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, there is a splendid irony in what the Minister has just said as he trotted through the contortions of these amendments. I think he had a former life as a contortionist: it was quite extraordinary, really.
I do not think that these amendments are consequential; I think they are “Oops, we forgot something, actually”, as far as the Bill is concerned. Because of the way they treated the FoIA, suddenly everybody woke up to the fact that, for the purposes of that, ARIA was not a public body, because the Government had been so keen not to define it as a public body and therefore it had to be defined as a public body for the purposes of other legislation in a rather different way. So I do not think that this is consequential—except that it is something that probably should have been thought about when the original FoIA omission decision was made. No doubt everything will be clear after Report: the Minister will have his definition of a public body, everything will be logical and clear, and we will not have to have contortions such as this.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his explanation, which I find rather more digestible than the Minister’s. It would be very inconsistent of me not to make this one point: we would not need to be going through all of this had the Government done what they ought and subjected ARIA to FoI. It shows what a strange decision it was that the Government have had to do all this. I just wanted to make that point, really. I do not think there is much more to say about all of this except that, should the Government change their mind, or have their mind changed, on Report, we might have to have this kind of carry-on again as a consequence. Let us hope that we do.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment removes the amendments that would have treated the Advanced Research and Invention Agency as a reserved matter in relation to Wales and funding provided to it through the Science and Technology Act 1965 as outside the functions of the Welsh Ministers.
“Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015
10A_ The Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 is amended as follows.10B_ In section 7 (sections 4 to 6: interpretation), in subsection (2), for the definition of “public authority” substitute—““public authority” means—(a) a public authority within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (see section 3 of that Act), or(b) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency;”.10C_ In section 22 (sections 21 and 23 to 25: “qualifying regulatory provisions” etc), in subsection (8), for the definition of “public authority” (but not the “and” immediately after it) substitute—““public authority” means—(a) a public authority within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (see section 3 of that Act), or(b) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency;”.10D_ In section 27 (sections 21 to 25 etc: interpretation), in subsection (6), for the definition of “public authority” (but not the “and” immediately after it) substitute—““public authority” means— (a) a public authority within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (see section 3 of that Act), or(b) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency;”.10E_ In section 28 (duty to review regulatory provisions in secondary legislation), in subsection (4), for the words following ““public authority”” substitute “means—(a) a public authority within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (see section 3 of that Act), or(b) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency.”Enterprise Act 2016
10F_ In section 13 of the Enterprise Act 2016 (definitions used in Part 1), in the definition of “public authority”—(a) omit “or” at the end of paragraph (a);(b) after paragraph (b) insert “, or(c) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency.”Data Protection Act 2018
10G_ The Data Protection Act 2018 is amended as follows.10H_ In section 7 (meaning of “public authority” and “public body”)—(a) in subsection (1), after paragraph (b) (but before the “and” at the end of that paragraph) insert—“(ba) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency,”;(b) in subsection (4), for “described in subsection (1)(a) or (b)” substitute “described or mentioned in subsection (1)(a), (b) or (ba)”.10I_(1) Section 21 (definitions for purposes of Chapter 3 of Part 2) is amended as follows. (2) In subsection (5), in the definition of “FOI public authority”—(a) omit “or” at the end of paragraph (a);(b) after paragraph (b) insert “, or(c) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency.”(3) At the end insert—“(8) In relation to the Advanced Research and Invention Agency—(a) for the purposes of subsection (6)(a)—(i) section 3(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 is to be read as if “public authority” included that Agency, and(ii) section 3(2) of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (asp 13) is to be read as if “authority” included that Agency, and(b) subsection (7) does not apply.”Social Security Contributions (Intermediaries) Regulations
10J_(1) In regulation 3A of the Social Security Contributions (Intermediaries) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/727) (meaning of “public authority”), after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency,”.(2) In regulation 3A of the Social Security Contributions (Intermediaries) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/728) (meaning of “public authority”), after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) the Advanced Research and Invention Agency,”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment inserts amendments of the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, the Enterprise Act 2016, the Data Protection Act 2018 and certain regulations to treat the Advanced Research and Invention Agency in the same way as a body that is a public authority for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Lord Callanan
“UK GDPR
12_(1) In Article 2 of the UK GDPR (material scope), in paragraph (5)(d), for “and (7)” substitute “to (8)”.(2) In sub-paragraph (1), “UK GDPR” has the same meaning as in the Data Protection Act 2018 (see sections 3(10) and 205(4) of that Act).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at page 13, line 35, so far as it inserts section 21(8) of the Data Protection Act 2018.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on leaving out Clause 10.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at page 4, line 29.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at Clause 8, page 4, line 4.
“(1A) Before regulations may be made under this section, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a copy of the framework agreement outlining—(a) the relationship between ARIA and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy,(b) the relationship between ARIA and any other relevant government departments, (c) the interaction between ARIA and existing research and development, innovation, translation and funding institutions; and(d) any further relevant reporting requirements of ARIA.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish a copy of ARIA’s framework agreement before regulations can be made to commence the substantive parts of the bill.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, this is the last group of amendments in Committee, and it is probably just as well, because if the Minister has any more jelly babies I suspect he will go into a coma. We have established through both our useful meetings with him and Second Reading that the framework agreement is a crucial document to point the way to how ARIA will operate and its future relationships. Without knowledge of that document, we are being asked to approve all manner of clauses, as we just have, that set ARIA in motion before we know how it will operate—actually, before we know what it is.
With Amendment 47, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and I are offering the Minister an alternative to the Government’s magical mystery tour approach. Remember that this tour comes with a ticket price of £800 million of taxpayers’ money—and that is just the start. The Minister is loading us on to his metaphorical charabanc, ready to go who knows where, flat cap in place. The amendment is intended to remove some of that mystery. Thanks to it, before the vehicle can be put in gear, we must at least be told where we are going.
I have perhaps laboured that image a little much but, as I said, it is the last group. More prosaically, the amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish a copy of ARIA’s framework agreement before regulations can be made to commence the substantive parts of the Bill. It continues our theme of ensuring that Parliament has sight of, and an appropriate say in, the progress of this important institute, and it would do so without impeding ARIA’s progress or meddling with its future. In this way, the Minister can remove the mystery without harming the magic, so I beg to move.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
If ARIA does not exist until the Act is commenced, how can there be a framework agreement that involves ARIA being a party to the agreement to be tabled before the commencement of the Act?
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I do not need to do very much more. My noble friend is finishing this symphony of a Bill Committee con brio, with metaphorical charabancs, mystery and magic. What more do we need at the end of a Bill stage?
I point out that the equivalent UKRI document of 2018 runs to 60 pages and 16 chapters. It covers a huge range of information: the purpose of UK research and innovation, its powers and duties, its aims, the partnership principles, and the responsibilities of the CEO. It then goes on to deal with devolution and relationships with other bodies, public appointments to UKRI, reviews of boards and committees, and so on. There is some really important content in the UKRI framework document, and I am sure that the ARIA document will not be very different. I very much hope that the Minister will reconsider the decision. On the arrival of the CEO, the Minister said that it followed the Treasury’s standard template. Even something in draft, which does not have to be agreed by the CEO, would seem fundamental to our understanding of what ARIA is going to do.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I support Amendment 47, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones. I feel at a bit of a disadvantage, if I can say to my noble friend Lord Browne, that I have no Daily Telegraph article that I can quote in support of what I am about to say. Perhaps he has one in his pocket and he can pass it along.
The relationships between different parts of the scientific landscape do matter. One interesting thing about the period that we have lived through in the past year and a half has been the changing nature of the role and influence of the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser. We had a brief mention of that in Committee last week. Amendment 47 refers to the types of relationships that ARIA might have with UKRI, but in particular I would be interested in anything that the Minister might have to say about the relationships between ARIA and the new science and technology council established by the Prime Minister, in which the Chief Scientific Adviser is of course a major figure. Then there is the existing Council for Science and Technology, in which the Chief Scientific Adviser is also involved, and the new Office for Science and Technology Strategy, which has been set up only recently, in which again the Chief Scientific Adviser is involved. Indeed, he is not only the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser—he is now the Government’s Chief Technology Adviser.
We discussed last week why it had been put in the Bill that the Chief Scientific Adviser should be a member of the board of ARIA. I shall not rehash an old debate, but it is an important role. Undoubtedly, any Member of this Committee or anyone who chairs a Select Committee in this House or another place will want to examine the framework document in detail at a hearing, and I would welcome what the Minister has to say about how that document and how relationships between ARIA and others will focus on the Chief Scientific Adviser.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Committees go in cycles: they can get very serious, but we are now getting towards the end, where consideration can descend into banter, if we are not careful. That is not something that I thought I would experience at this end of the building, but it is quite welcome.
I understand exactly where the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones, are coming from with this, taking into account what the noble Baroness said. The framework document has been referred to so many times during our consideration; it has done a lot of heavy lifting, yet we have not been able to see a draft of it. That is something that I regret, because it would have been useful to know about it. We got lots of assurances about what it will and will not do, but we have not seen a draft that will enable us to test that or tease it out. That is a shame, and I think that is what is behind the amendment.
It is not great when the Government do this and ask a Committee to take these things on trust, or to take the intention. It is not how it is best for us to work. We take these things and our role in this process seriously, and we want to know how ARIA will operate in relation to the departments and bodies outlined in the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
I remind the Minister that, not so long ago, he secured Amendments 37 and 40 on the basis of the sight, by a limited number of us, of a draft agreement. It is not unreasonable to ask him to at least consider reciprocating.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank Members who have contributed to this brief debate. I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, did not exercise us again with his Daily Telegraph subscription, which I was very impressed by. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on saving the best to last with his bravura amendment. He has obviously been searching his thesaurus over the weekend for appropriate analogies. It was well moved and I do understand the seriousness of the issue and the noble Lord’s intention, which relates to the desire, as we have heard, to understand more details of how ARIA will work in practice.
As I mentioned at Second Reading, ARIA’s framework document is a governance document. It is a standard requirement for public bodies—which, of course, ARIA will be. As suggested in the noble Lord’s amendment, it will set the parameters for ARIA’s relationship with BEIS, as its sponsoring department. That is indeed its very purpose.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, referred to the guidance published by Her Majesty’s Treasury, and I reassure him that, by drawing on the Treasury’s guidance, ARIA’s framework document will ensure that the agency and BEIS work effectively together. It will outline ARIA’s accountability, its decision-making and its financial management structures, along with some broader reporting requirements. However, it is not the appropriate place to codify ARIA’s relationship with other government departments. Other departments have no accountability relationship with ARIA, so its terms of engagement with them are a question of strategy rather than governance. The framework document will not contain any information relating to ARIA’s strategy in terms of collaboration, its project portfolio or indeed, its areas of research interest, all of which, I know, are of great interest to noble Lords.
On the sequencing of publication and commencement, given that both ARIA and the department need to be in agreement on the framework document, I reiterate, as I said at Second Reading, that it is therefore not possible to finalise it before ARIA’s senior leadership is in place, as my noble friend Lady Noakes, pointed out. It is not possible for the framework document to be published in advance of ARIA coming into legal existence. Similarly, the framework document for UKRI, for example, was finalised and published after that body came into legal existence.
Finally, it is worth noting that framework documents are live publications and are amended regularly to reflect any changes in the sponsor department or indeed the arm’s-length body itself, and they are all thoroughly reviewed every three years.
On the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, on whether the framework document will outline the role of the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser on ARIA, it is likely to. I will be happy to write to the noble Viscount with any more detail that I can on that.
I hope therefore that noble Lords understand that, in our view, there is a logical process to follow in the establishment of a public body and therefore that they will accept my assurance that we will publish the finalised framework document as soon as practicably possible.
Lord Fox (LD)
I have a couple of questions before the Minister sits down—or rather, I will now respond. The Minister seeks to downplay why we should be interested in the framework agreement, but the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, when he was in his seat, specifically asked about the relationship between UKRI and ARIA. That is just one question; there is a lot of interest in this and a lot of need to know. So the Minister should acknowledge that this is important to people and to organisations that are, in turn, important to this country.
I have a second point on which I would like an answer. I assume from what the Minister said that the sequence is: first, appoint a chief executive and then appoint the person to whom the chief executive reports. I still find that an interesting sequence, but certainly both those people will be asking what our relationship is with, for example, UKRI—or with others, as set out by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate.
It seems to me that either the Government will have an answer to that question during the recruitment process, or they will say, “Well, please yourself”. I suspect they have an answer and, just as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, trusting us with the draft of how that question will be answered would be completely reasonable and something that we would appreciate. With that said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Callanan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment to leave out Clause 10.
House of Lords
Personal Independence Payments
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking in response to the First Tier Tribunal overturning 70 per cent of the decisions of the Department for Work and Pensions in respect of Personal Independence Payments assessments between April and June.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare that I receive a disability benefit.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, in the majority of PIP cases, there is no appeal. From April 2013 to March 2021, 4.4 million initial decisions following a PIP assessment were made. By June 2021, 9% have been appealed and only 5% overturned at appeal. We have recently made improvements to our decision-making processes to ensure that more disabled people and people with health conditions get the support they are entitled to as quickly as possible.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister and welcome that reply—as far as it went. However, is it not high time that assessments right now are improved, which would make most of these PIP appeals unnecessary? If assessors need reports from GPs or other healthcare professionals, they should ask for them at the mandatory reconsideration stage. Does the Minister also agree that there is no point in reassessing those with a progressive condition?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I agree with the noble Baroness’s second point, and that is what we are doing. If a person has long-term health needs, they are not being reassessed as they were. We are changing the way we do things. Since 2019, we have had a holistic approach to decision-making, particularly in the mandatory reconsideration stage after the first assessment. That gives time for people to talk to the claimant and get further evidence to support their claim. This means that fewer people are now going to appeal.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the improvements my noble friend has referred to in getting the decision right first time. However, she will be aware that there have been delays in the hearing of appeals, which have of course been aggravated by the pandemic. What steps is my noble friend’s department taking to ensure that the appeal time is brought forward in view of the stress that delays can cause to some applicants?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, the timings for appeal are difficult, because everybody wants time to get evidence in, allow assessors to talk to people and build a case. We are doing everything we can to make sure that we are making the right decisions, and in a timely manner.
Lord Loomba (CB)
My Lords, personal independence payments provide essential support for those who cannot meet their most basic needs. For every case where the department has been overruled by the tribunal, there is a desperate story of the person in need not receiving the support Parliament judged necessary. That this happens in so many cases speaks of a system that seeks to avoid providing support wherever possible, not one intent on ensuring it reaches those for whom it is meant. Can the Minister assure us that every effort will be made to make such tribunal decisions the exception rather than the rule?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
As I have said, we are doing everything we possibly can, first, by having mandatory reconsiderations in-house with a separate team, but also by providing holistic decision-making support so that we can make sure we are working with people and that as few as possible cases go to tribunal.
Lord Bach (Lab)
Why, according to the latest official statistics, were there 36,000 social security and child support cases outstanding at the end of June this year and why did it take, as has already been mentioned, a mean average of 39 weeks—a figure that is going up—to dispose of them at tribunal? Does the Minister understand that the removal of legal aid for welfare benefits advice has led to fewer cases being sorted out and resolved well before they reach tribunal? Will she advise her colleagues at the Ministry of Justice to do something immediately to restore some modest legal aid in this area?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, legal aid was not available for representation before the First-tier Tribunal ahead of its reform, anyway; it was only available for advice and preparation. Tribunal proceedings are designed to be straightforward and accessible to all. They are inquisitory, not adversarial and the tribunal panel is trained and experienced in dealing with a wide range of applicants with individual needs. The DWP is supporting people—there is no need for legal aid in these tribunals.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, more generally, what are the Government doing to help disabled people coming out of the pandemic, and what steps are they taking to operationalise every element of the national disability strategy?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that question. The national disability strategy, which was launched this year, is exactly intended to help the disabled, and the Government want to support completely everything that is in it. At the moment, it is a bit early for operational outcomes, but we are working across government to make sure that disability is well understood by all departments, which is important. The needs and experiences of disabled people are central to policy-making and always taken into account by frontline staff.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, to return to the Question, before you are allowed to appeal, you have to undergo mandatory reconsideration by DWP. That takes two months, so the cases we are talking about were turned down by DWP, reviewed, turned down again by DWP and then went to tribunal, which upheld 70% of them. That is a long process, which is emotionally and financially stressful for sick and disabled claimants. In fact, more than 1,000 died while the process was still under way. Does the department accept that this process is still not working as it should?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The department accepts that there is more that it can do; there is always more it can do. The disability Green Paper means that we will talk to people—we have already gone out to consultation—particularly claimants and disabled people, and find out what more we can do. But the situation is not getting worse, it is getting better.
Baroness Fookes (Con)
My Lords, many people with mental health problems have a particular difficulty in negotiating the system and getting the benefits they need. Can my noble friend tell me what help the Government are giving this group of people?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that question. The consultation period for the health and disability Green Paper, to which I referred, has now run out and we are looking at the results. Through that, the department conducted extensive stakeholder engagement and talked to people with mental health problems and their carers about how we could do more to help them when they were being assessed, particularly for PIP. Interestingly, people with mental health problems are the largest group of people who now receive PIP.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
Does the Minister not find it embarrassing, treating some of the most disadvantaged people in society in such a penny-pinching, niggling way when consultants are paid over £1,000 a day for work on a test and trace scheme which is not even working?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
No, my Lords, those are two separate things. What we should be doing is looking after disabled people in the best way we can. We are looking after more disabled people and getting more disabled people into work, which is where they would like to be, supported by the Government. We are doing the best we can, but we will never be complacent and will continue to do more.
Lord Flight (Con)
My Lords, what steps are the Government taking to ensure that terminally ill people get the support they so much need?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, under the special rules for terminal illness, people nearing the end of their lives—as I would rather call them—have their claims fast tracked. The average time from registration to decision for a claimant under this new scheme is three working days. I am sure noble Lords will think that is reasonable for this group of people.
Ethiopia: Tigray Region
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Collins of Highbury
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government of Ethiopia about (1) the conflict, and (2) the humanitarian situation, in the Tigray region.
The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park) (Con)
My Lords, we have consistently called on all parties, not just the Government of Ethiopia, to end fighting and protect civilians. On 5 November, the Foreign Secretary spoke to the Ethiopian Deputy Prime Minister, Demeke Mekonnen Hassen. She raised our strong concerns about the impact of continued fighting in Ethiopia and the appalling suffering of the civilian population. She set out the need for negotiations to avoid further bloodshed and deliver peace. All sides must agree a ceasefire and allow aid to reach starving people.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, last week Liz Truss committed to prioritising and funding combating sexual violence in conflict, with the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, leading. Tigray must rank as the worst example of the use of sexual violence in conflict, yet there has been no public word about the results of the scoping mission to Ethiopia by the UK preventing sexual violence team. There is a desperate need for services for survivors and to secure legal evidence, much of which is in camps in Sudan. Will the UK back the call from Helen Clark and others on the UN Security Council to set up a tribunal to investigate allegations of sexual violence?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
The noble Lord makes an extremely important point and he is right that sexual violence has been a grim feature of this conflict. The deployment by the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative UK team of experts resulted in a review of the needs and gaps in the response, which we are taking forward, including through a specialist role based in the Embassy. We expect that that work to support accountability will begin in January. We are not planning at this stage, I am told, to make the review public, but I am assured, following our encounter just a few minutes ago, that there will be briefings specifically for parliamentarians.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, this is a very unstable region of Africa. Ethiopia has proved crucial to stability in UN peacekeeping as well. Can the Minister say, first, how any diminution in the Ethiopian contribution to UN peacekeeping is being mitigated or compensated for elsewhere? Secondly, what is his assessment of the refugee crisis caused despite the welcome restoration of the transitional Government in Sudan?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, as we have just heard, the crisis has taken on an international character, with Eritrea effectively involved in fighting in Ethiopia against the TPLF, which fired rockets on the Eritrean capital, Asmara. Thankfully, recent clashes between Ethiopia and Sudan along their border have been limited. However, we believe that 80,000 refugees have fled northern Ethiopia into eastern Sudan. The stakes are obviously high as the risk of regional spillover escalates. As noble Lords would expect, we urge all parties to the conflict to recognise the dangers of a drawn-out, protracted conflict for the region.
Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
My Lords, under Article 4 of the African Union’s constitution, the AU’s Peace and Security Council has the power to intervene on member states should acts of genocide or other war crimes be committed. To date, the AU has not intervened, other than to send envoys. Does my noble friend the Minister think that perhaps the time has come when it should do so?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, the African Union chairperson appointed a high representative specifically tasked to engage all parties to the conflict on options for peace. The Peace and Security Council has recognised and supported the important of former President Obasanjo, who is now in Ethiopia, visiting regularly and having productive discussions with both sides of the conflict. Our priority is to support the diplomatic efforts, particularly his efforts, as the form of intervention most likely to bring about a ceasefire and allow humanitarian relief to reach those in urgent need.
Lord St John of Bletso (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is in the interests of everyone in Ethiopia to get all parties to the negotiation table to try to reach some form of compromise? What lessons are the Government drawing from Tigray for the Oromia and Somali Regions? Does the Minister agree that there is a high risk of similar crises in the Horn of Africa? What action can be taken to avert them?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, there certainly is a high risk of the sort identified by the noble Lord. We regularly discuss the situation in Ethiopia with our G7 counterparts, African leaders and allies in the Gulf. The Minister for Africa discussed the situation with Kenya’s Cabinet Secretary Omamo on 1 November and, on 12 October, joined a call of major donors chaired by the administrator of USAID, Samantha Power. On the same day, the Foreign Secretary joined a call on Ethiopia chaired by Secretary Blinken. We are in regular communication with the UN at senior levels and at the technical, working level.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, while these diplomatic efforts carry on, in Tigray, Amhara and Afar, 8 million people—5 million of them in Tigray— are in desperate need. Rates of severe malnutrition are extremely high. Healthcare facilities have been trashed. Supplies of essential medicines are at zero. Hundreds of thousands of people are cut off from supplies and at risk of starvation today. Every imaginable form of obstruction to humanitarian aid is present, but the main reason for the cut-off is the blockade imposed by the Addis Government. What steps are we supporting to ensure that Ethiopia opens the checkpoints today?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, the humanitarian needs in Tigray are at catastrophic levels, as the noble Lord said, with 90% of the population requiring life-saving aid. An escalation in violence has huge implications for vulnerable populations right across Ethiopia, potentially impacting on an estimated 20 million people already reliant on humanitarian aid and the 31 million people assessed as living below the poverty line. The humanitarian response in Tigray is at a standstill because of the limited availability of fuel and the fact that relief items have been depleted. Stocks cannot be replenished due to the blockade imposed by the Government of Ethiopia; we are putting particular emphasis on that area.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, as was referred to, the more encouraging news from neighbouring Sudan over the weekend was tempered by the even more disturbing news from Ethiopia. Are the Government aware of the reports of people being targeted in Addis purely on the basis of their ethnicity and the establishment of new concentration camps near the city, including in a primary school? What firm action are the Government taking, with their allies, to prevent ethnic-based conflict, which, as the Minister said, could be truly catastrophic for the region if it spreads across borders?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, the UK is engaging with Ethiopia—in fact, with both sides of the dispute—at every level imaginable and at every possible opportunity. We have a frank but constructive relationship with the Government of Ethiopia, which enables UK Ministers and senior officials to raise our concerns and have forthright discussions about the conflict in Tigray with them. We will continue to do this and raise all credible allegations as they are put to us.
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, we have heard horrific allegations of sexual torture and rape in Tigray. Far too often, the perpetrators are just not held to account. I very much welcome last week’s announcement that the Government will host an international conference on preventing sexual violence in conflict. Can my noble friend the Minister say what the Government hope this conference will achieve?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, in 2022, the UK plans to host an international conference to mark 10 years since the launch of the Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict Initiative. The conference will bring together partners from all over the world to end violence against women and girls. This will be an important opportunity to review progress, identify challenges and agree further action on sexual violence in conflict, as well on wider gender equity issues. Further information on the conference will be made available shortly.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, is not part of the tragedy that, in one of the most malnourished and impoverished parts of Africa, both sides—the United Front, with the TPLF, and the Government—can find the resources to wage a bitter civil war? How can the aid community intervene? Is there any real danger that the country might descend into ethnic groupings, as in the Balkans, and destabilise the region?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, the conflict has the capacity to spill even further out of control and expand beyond the northern region. We have struggled to deploy UK aid for the reasons I described in my answer two questions ago. UK aid was being delivered into and across Tigray before the Government of Ethiopia created a blockade. We are supporting partners so that they can quickly recommence aid delivery should that be possible, and we are putting pressure on the Ethiopian Government to address the blockade and remove it.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that he and the Foreign Office have received representations from the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Eritrea, which I co-chair, about torture, rape and starvation being used as weapons of war and the involuntary repatriation of Tigrayan refugees to Eritrea? Will the United Kingdom follow the United States in imposing targeted sanctions on the perpetrators of these crimes? What is being done to ensure that those responsible for what has rightly been described as a catastrophic, man-made disaster that is destabilising the whole of the Horn of Africa are brought to justice?
Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
My Lords, we are appalled by the reports that we have received on the systematic killing of civilians; widespread sexual violence, including rape and including that of children; indiscriminate shelling; and ethnic discrimination, including the forcible displacement of communities. I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question on the APPG report, I am afraid, but I will ask my colleague, who would have received it, to confirm that that is the case. On sanctions, the UK will consider the full range of policy tools at our disposal to protect human rights and deter violations of international humanitarian law.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Dementia: Art and Music-based Interventions
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Greengross
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they intend to take to increase the use of art or music-based interventions in the care of people living with dementia.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)
Music can play an important part in supporting people who are living with dementia. Last year, NHS England and NHS Improvement facilitated three webinars resulting in the publication of guidance for social prescribing link workers to expand music prescriptions. We will be setting out a new dementia strategy in 2022. As part of that development, we are working in collaboration with stakeholders, including people affected by dementia, and will explore the role of arts and music-based interventions.
Baroness Greengross (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. What further steps will the Government take to support brain health through social prescribing? How will any measures taken be incorporated into the Health and Care Bill currently being debated in the other place?
Lord Kamall (Con)
I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all her work raising awareness of dementia, in this House and outside of it. The Government understand the importance of non-medical and lifestyle factors in supporting people’s health and well-being, including brain health. This is why we are continuing to roll out social prescribing across the NHS, in line with the NHS Long Term Plan commitment to have at least 900,000 people referred to social prescribing by 2023-24. The Department of Health and Social Care is working closely with NHS England and NHS Improvement to incorporate social prescribing into the guidance to integrated care systems. Some of this guidance has already been included in the document implementation guidance on partnerships with the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector that was published in September 2021.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
Around 25,000 people with dementia are from BAME communities and this is expected to double by 2026. The Alzheimer’s Society report, The Fog of Support, found that people from these communities, and those with English as an additional language, were more likely to use BAME-led groups. The report also found that there is generally a need for interventions to be much more culturally sensitive. What action are the Government taking to ensure that people with dementia can access culturally appropriate care, including art and music-based interventions, which reflect a wide range of cultures and languages?
Lord Kamall (Con)
The Office for Health Improvement and Disparities is looking at areas where there are clear disparities. As part of developing the dementia strategy, the Government are consulting with a wide range of stakeholders and ensuring that a diverse range of views from different communities is heard and that it is not targeted just at one particularly community.
Baroness Bull (CB)
My Lords, social prescribing is a key aspect of the NHS Long Term Plan. It has been described by the president of the Royal College of General Practitioners as an essential part of the toolkit for tomorrow’s doctors. Therefore, why is social prescribing absent from the core undergraduate curriculum in UK medical schools? Some schools offer optional modules, but there is no national consensus on what teaching should cover or how it is best delivered. Does the Minister agree that, unless social prescribing is integrated into the education of the future healthcare workforce, its benefits for patients and the NHS will never be realised?
Lord Kamall (Con)
The NICE quality standard on dementia, published in June 2019, includes guidelines for offering activities and social prescribing. They are also included in the NHS long-term plan. Obviously, different components are modelled that are social prescribe-enabled—not only music but other art-based activities. The education question will be for my noble friend in the Department for Education, but if the noble Baroness can write to me, I am sure that we can get the answer.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, music therapy is also increasingly helping Covid patients hit by inflammation and fibrosis that causes shortness of breath—a horrible condition. The Breathe programme from the ENO and Imperial College has classical-singing coaches providing psychological and physiological therapy to great effect. Can the Minister endorse this kind of social prescribing, and can he commit to meeting Dr Harry Brünjes and the Breathe team, which is seeking to take this programme nationally?
Lord Kamall (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that question. As an amateur musician—I stress “amateur”—I know that there is no better feeling than when you connect with your audience as a live musician. Music tugs at your heartstrings. Music touches your soul. But it can also unlock the mind. This shows the importance of music in social prescribing.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I hope that patients get the benefit of what I am sure is the Minister’s excellent playing. He has been very positive in his responses, but he will know that the arts sector has been very stretched financially during the Covid years in particular. Will he open discussions with organisations such as the Alzheimer’s Society, with an offer of some funding to develop some of the schemes that we have heard about today?
Lord Kamall (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his invitation to perform live—I am not sure that he will feel the same way after hearing my blues band. Last year, NHS England and NHS Improvement, in collaboration with the National Academy for Social Prescribing, the Alzheimer’s Society and Music for Dementia, facilitated a series of webinars. We are working in consultation with them. In February 2021, Music for Dementia also published social prescribing guides for link workers to help expand music prescriptions. The important thing here is that we are consulting with stakeholders.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, for more dementia patients to gain access to music therapy through social prescribing, there must be more training on the value of music for carers and healthcare practitioners and greater support for musicians to train as music therapists, and music education must be a much more mainstream part of primary and secondary school education. What assurance can the Minister give that the necessary government cross-departmental action is being taken to deliver on this?
Lord Kamall (Con)
The department itself is working closely with Music for Dementia and other organisations. Across government, we are looking at music, beyond just performance, to see how it can impact our lives and the role that it can have in levelling up and community cohesion, for example. Across government, I am sure that a number of departments are looking at this.
Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)
My Lords, the former Secretary of State, Matt Hancock, deserves an enormous amount of credit for setting up the National Academy for Social Prescribing. Before he came into the department, the Department of Health could not have been less interested in the power of the arts and music to have an impact on people’s health. The second anniversary of the academy has just passed. Can the Minister commit to issuing a report on its third anniversary—since I know that he will still be in the post—to suggest how to take it forward? Also, we still do not know what instrument he plays, but perhaps he could take it with him on his first visit to the academy, as soon as possible.
Lord Kamall (Con)
I am not sure which question to answer first. If noble Lords will excuse a second of self-promotion, I am an electric bass player and sing the blues as well.
Lord Kamall (Con)
I thank noble Lords. Can I stop there? I also am aware that my noble friend is himself a music fan. I remember once bumping into him on the Jubilee line on his way to the O2 arena to see Led Zeppelin. Noble Lords across the House recognise the power of music and how it affects our lives.
Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD) [V]
My Lords, someone very close to me has Alzheimer’s disease. Music-based interventions such as the Alzheimer’s Society’s “Singing for the Brain” groups have been proven to have multiple health and well-being benefits. What support are the Government offering to charities such as the Alzheimer’s Society to ensure that they can keep delivering this kind of intervention? Will the Minister, with his musical ability, commit to attending a “Singing for the Brain” session?
Lord Kamall (Con)
I should warn all noble Lords that they have not heard me yet—their requests may be quite different after hearing my band play. In terms of the ability of music and, if you like, the instructions, we are working with a number of stakeholders as well as ensuring that, when it comes to training social workers and others, they understand the ability of music to make a difference to people’s lives.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I declare an interest: my wife is a music teacher and my son runs a recording studio, at which I am sure the Minister would be very welcome. Does the Minister agree that one initiative which could help both dementia sufferers and young musicians and artists would be to sponsor of an internship scheme whereby such students could be working part-time in the care sector, thereby benefiting themselves and those in care?
Lord Kamall (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for that suggestion. We are looking, across the health sector, at how we can think outside the box and train students in other disciplines to help in healthcare. Clearly, music can potentially play a role. In terms of the music studio offer, can I just say “Wait until you’ve heard me”?
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move to the next question.
Emergency Services: Ministers of Religion
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Moylan
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to establish a multi-professional strategy for the emergency services concerning the attendance of ministers of religion at the scene of situations involving serious injury.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, today of all days, we remember Sir David Amess, who tragically died carrying out his duties as a public servant. Our thoughts and prayers are with his loved ones, as well as with all those involved in scenes of traumatic injury. Decisions regarding the management of such situations remain an operational issue for the emergency services involved. There are no plans to establish a multi-professional strategy on this issue.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, the tragic death of Sir David Amess brought to national attention a problem that experts and academics in the field of disaster and emergency response have recognised for some time—namely, the lack of a considered approach to the role of ministers of religion and their access to victims at end-of-life in disasters and emergencies. While I welcome the fact that the Archbishop of Westminster and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner have opened a dialogue on this topic, does my noble friend agree that a national standard is required? Will she undertake a study, preliminary to that, of other jurisdictions such as Israel, Italy and even Northern Ireland, where practice tends to be more nuanced and accommodating?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
There are certainly lessons to be learned from other jurisdictions, as my noble friend said. I totally empathise with the situation that both David Amess’s family and the police found themselves in during that dreadful incident. Given the people who are involved, I hope and expect a sensible and pragmatic conclusion to be arrived at through the discussions.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord has spoken with compassion, but is there not a danger that the attendance of ministers of religion at the scene of an accident could hamper the work of the emergency services? If there are serious injuries, the victim will be taken to hospital, where they can, if desired, call on the excellent chaplaincy service, which works 24 hours a day.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The noble Lord is right that chaplains operate 24 hours a day in hospitals. My noble friend’s question, of course, was about Sir David Amess, who was at the point of death when his family wanted him to have the last rites from a Catholic priest. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is correct to point out that the criteria for the police to consider in such incidents are protection of life, the risks at the scene and the preservation of evidence at the scene.
The Lord Bishop of Coventry
My Lords, I greatly welcome the joint study group announced by the cardinal archbishop. Does the Minister agree that good outcomes from that study would include both further training and education to ensure that police officers understand the significance of spiritual comfort at the point of death, for the dying of whatever faith, and an increased role for police chaplaincy?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I am sure that what will come out of that group are considerations of whether any changes are required to the guidance issued to police officers faced with such situations. I know that hospital chaplains are available around the clock to cater for a range of different needs and provide comfort, both during a period of illness and at the point of death.
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, the circumstances surrounding access for the local priest to be with Sir David in his final hours put everyone concerned in an exceptionally difficult position. Will my noble friend the Minister look at the US model, where emergency managers can identify and engage with faith-based groups in emergency preparedness activities, building partnerships with them to establish protocols for use at the scene of serious injuries and integrating faith leaders into emergency situations involving serious injury?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I will certainly take my noble friend’s point back. I know the College of Policing welcomes engagement with faith community leaders and others who have concerns about the current authorised professional practice to understand views and consider possible next steps for this issue.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, surely there is a difference between the perpetrator sitting at the scene of a stabbing waiting to be arrested and an explosion where forensic recovery is essential. Can the Minister not bring together faith and police leaders nationally to discuss the potential use of discretion, in appropriate cases?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The noble Lord is right, in the sense that it sounds like the perpetrator was standing there, waiting to be arrested, but there has to be a framework around these things. Of course, forensic preservation is crucial at such scenes, even where it is apparent what has gone on. I am sure that the group will consider the noble Lord’s proposals.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I know this is incredibly difficult but, as we can carry donor cards and things, would it not be possible to consider compiling a register of those of us who would wish to receive the last rites at the point of death? I am sure that would bring great comfort to many families.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
We are talking here about the point of death of someone who was killed in very unusual circumstances. My family know what I would want, and I am sure noble Lords in this House have let their families know what they would want. But there is a point there about pragmatism and considering someone’s last wishes at the scene of crime.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, in these difficult times, is it not possible that people’s spiritual needs, as well as their physical needs, could be supported, and if possible adhered to, during serious injury and illness? Could the Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Care work together to send out a directive advising on these matters?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
The group led by the National Police Chiefs’ Council, joined by the Catholic Church and the College of Policing, will determine what such a framework looks like. It was a surprise to me that this had not come up before, and therefore it needs some thinking about, including on whether changes are required to the guidance issued to police faced with such situations.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
Our thoughts too are very much with the family and friends of Sir David Amess, particularly today. As has been said, Cardinal Vincent Nichols and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner have agreed to create a group reviewing last rites access for priests at crime scenes. Presumably, there is a need to ensure that a crime scene remains protected and not disturbed, and that the person seeking access is who they say they are. First, has this matter of access or lack of it for ministers of religion been a concern before and, if so, with representatives of which faiths? Secondly, is the question of such access presently covered by College of Policing or other guidelines?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
It does not seem to have come up as an issue before, and that is precisely why this group is meeting to see if there are any gaps in the guidance issued to police to deal with such incidents.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, one of the cruellest aspects of the lockdown was the denial of visits from priests to give last rites to those dying in care homes. For Catholics, at least, that was as awful as not seeing beloved family. The official advice was to say prayers by Zoom. Would the noble Baroness note that, while there is an Amess amendment as part of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, this is less a regulatory or legislative matter and more a deficit of cultural capital when it comes to Christian practices? Would she also note that the overtechnocratic approach illustrated by some of the replies today misses what really matters in society?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
Not only do I empathise with what really matters to some people at the point of death—it made me think that, if I was in such a situation, I would want a priest there—but I am very glad that Cardinal Nichols is meeting with the NPCC. That group will consider a more nuanced approach that can be reflected in police guidance about facing such a situation.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. That concludes Oral Questions for today.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Monday 22nd November 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 View all Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 40-XI Eleventh marshalled list for Committee - (22 Nov 2021)
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
“Video recorded cross-examination or re-examination of complainants in respect of sexual offences and modern slavery offences
(1) Section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 comes into force in relation to proceedings to which subsection (2) applies on the day on which this Act is passed.(2) This subsection applies where a witness is eligible for assistance by virtue of section 17(4) of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 (complainants in respect of a sexual offence or modern slavery offence who are witnesses in proceedings relating to that offence, or that offence and any other offences).(3) This section has effect notwithstanding section 68(3) of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new clause would bring section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, which provides for the cross-examination of vulnerable witnesses to be recorded rather than undertaken in court, fully into force for victims of sexual offences and modern slavery offences.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, Section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 allows for the cross-examination of vulnerable witnesses and victims of adult sexual assault to take place separately from the trial. The purpose of this provision—following Section 27, which allows evidence in chief to be given before the trial—is to allow a victim of adult sexual assault to give their evidence in chief and be cross-examined in a period quite shortly after the incident. It means that they do not have to wait a very long time for what will be a terrible ordeal. It means that they give evidence at a point when the events are only recent, rather than after a long period has gone by.
There is nobody, I think, who does not regard these provisions as beneficial. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that they are as available as possible throughout the Crown Court estate in England and Wales. My understanding of the position is that they are available in respect of the victims of adult sexual assault only in certain specified Crown Courts in England and Wales. This amendment seeks to ensure they are available everywhere and as soon as possible, by saying they would be, in effect, available on the day this Bill becomes law.
It has been said that one of the reasons for not making the provisions available is that they require judicial resource—you need a Crown Court judge in order to hear the evidence, even though it is separate from a trial. It strikes me as very odd that adult sexual violence is not a priority of the Crown Courts. If judicial resources are the problem, my suggestion would be that making resources available to hear the victims of serious adult sexual assault should come sufficiently high up the priorities so that there is a judge available to deal with it. On that basis, I beg to move.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I very much understand the impatience of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for the introduction of video recordings of cross-examination in cases involving sexual offences and modern slavery. It is important that evidence in such cases is given early and without pressure. However, I have some queries about the amendment.
The Government have introduced by stages these provisions under Section 16 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 for witnesses
“under the age of 18 at the time of the hearing”
and witnesses suffering “from mental disorder” or
“a significant impairment of intelligence and social functioning.”
The section also provides for witnesses with a physical disability. Various courts have been permitted to hear evidence in these circumstances, culminating in March of this year, when the provisions were extended to Preston Crown Court. But it was only on 30 September—six weeks ago—that the provisions were extended under Section 17(4) for complaints in respect of a sexual offence or a modern slavery offence. Only four courts were involved—Durham, Harrow, Isleworth and Wood Green. I have not seen any evaluation of the use of these procedures under Section 16, although they were piloted as early as December 2013 in Kingston, Leeds and Liverpool. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell me whether such an evaluation exists and, if so, whether it could be made available.
As for the proposal in this amendment to extend the provisions wholesale under Section 17, it is obviously too soon to evaluate limited pilots from the end of September. There can surely not have been time yet for any direction to be made by any judge of the three courts for such special measures for sexual offences and modern slavery.
Since I have no personal experience of these measures, I would be grateful if the Minister could inform me how they take place. As I read the legislation, the witness gives evidence to the court in the presence of the judge and counsel on both sides but in the absence of the accused. The accused is, however, entitled to watch the proceedings and communicate with his legal representatives. How exactly would this be organised? Is the accused in another part of the building, watching from prison, or what? In what way is this less intimidating to the witness than, for example, giving evidence down the line at the time of trial—a proceeding with which we have been familiar for some years?
My concern is that the distancing of the witnesses from the jury is artificial enough when it takes place at the time of the trial. But in my view it is even greater when the jury know they are watching a recording of examination and cross-examination which happened months, possibly even a year, before. While I appreciate that the best evidence is that which is given shortly after the events, the answer, really, is not to delay trials to get rid of the backlog. I heard on Saturday at my chambers dinner that the problem of delay is not the Nightingale courts but the number of judges and counsel needed to cover the trials taking place there and in the ordinary Crown Courts.
Originally, this amendment was grouped with Amendments 286 to 291. Are the others to be spoken to later?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
In this group, according to my listing, Amendment 268 is grouped with Amendments 286, 287, 288, 289, 290 and 291.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
That introduces the question about the complainant’s sexual history; I do not think the noble and learned Lord addressed that when he opened the case. The basic position in relation to that issue is stated in Section 41(1) of the 1999 Act, which says that
“no evidence may be adduced, and … no question may be asked in cross-examination,”
where
“a person is charged with a sexual offence … except with the leave of the court”.
Amendments 286 to 291 are concerned with tightening up the circumstances in which leave may be given. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, would not allow by these amendments such evidence whenever the issue of consent arises, whether at the same time or same event as the subject matter of the charge or where there is such similarity in the sexual behaviour of the complainant to the charge that the similarity cannot reasonably be explained as a coincidence.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, I support these improved safeguards because although I have not been in court very often, and when I have been there, it has been mostly as the complainant or a witness, I do think that we need better support for victims—or the plaintiff—who at the moment are treated very much as bit players in the whole theatre. It seems that they are almost forgettable because the two protagonists are the defence and the prosecution, and they take centre stage. It was obvious when we debated the Domestic Abuse Bill, when we discussed anonymity and other techniques for helping witnesses give evidence in court, so clearly that is needed.
The witness is often treated as a sort of emotionless void, with the legal test focusing on whether the proposed measures will improve their ability to give evidence, rather than, say, protect them from the trauma, embarrassment and hurt of facing up against the accused. This is no more apparent than in the way we treat victims of sexual violence and rape. The Section 41 rules were a major step forward but still fall far short of what is necessary, and so the amendments in this group would help recognise victims as humans and not just incidental characters in the whole story. Most importantly, they would allow the complainant to have their own independent legal representation in Section 41 applications, rather than relying on prosecution counsel, who, in their role as administrators of justice, have many competing obligations to juggle.
I hope that the Minister will agree that there are still many unsolved challenges in the treatment of complainants, and they are in desperate need of solutions.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, I should have opened those other amendments, and it is an error on my part that I did not. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, because he has done a bit of the work that I should have done.
Lord Judge (CB)
If the noble and learned Lord decides to open them, which I would welcome, I would like to respond generally. So far, this debate has rushed along, and we were rather waiting for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to tell us why he strongly supported all these amendments, and then we will answer them.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
The reason I did not tell noble Lords why I strongly supported all these amendments was because I made a mistake and did not realise that they were in the same group until the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned it. I apologise to the Committee for that error.
May I just go through them? I have done Amendment 268, which concerns Section 28 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act. The next is Amendment 286, which proposes to insert a new clause into the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 and would exclude the admission in evidence, whether by the prosecution or the defence, of any sexual behaviour of the complainant with a third party, for the purpose of showing consent or lack of consent, while leaving evidence of sexual behaviour with a third party admissible if it is relevant to any other issue in the case.
In addition, it sets out a further requirement that, where such evidence is sought to be introduced in relation to an issue other than consent, that material must be more probative than prejudicial, and it sets out the considerations the judge must have regard to in considering that extra requirement. The purpose of this amendment is to give the clearest possible signal that evidence of any sexual behaviour of the complainant with a third party—that is, not the defendant—should be regarded as completely inadmissible on the issue of consent. This is important because it is intended to mark a change from the past, where all too often such evidence is admissible in circumstances where it is of very limited probative value, and the ability of that evidence to be admitted makes people—complainants—incredibly wary of coming forward and making complaints. This is the legislature giving a clear signal that it wants a change in relation to that. That is why it is there.
Lord Pannick (CB)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Lord, but would his amendment mean that if the complainant says, “I would never, ever consent to sexual behaviour” of a particular description, it would not be open to the defence to adduce evidence that that was precisely what the complainant had done with a third party?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
It would exclude such evidence; there is no doubt about that, and rightly so, because what the noble Lord is referring to is evidence where the defence says, “Well, you say this in relation to this case, but what about this?” and then refers to another instance of sexual connection and says, “Look what you did there.” The purpose of the provision is to do exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, says.
Lord Pannick (CB)
I would like to test this proposition, because it strikes me as rather surprising. If a complainant says to the court, “Not in relation to this particular person, but I would never ever contemplate” doing something, and there is evidence, otherwise admissible, that she has done so in the past, that seems to be highly relevant to the jury’s assessment.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
What I am saying in putting forward this provision is that you want to send a clear signal that a certain sort of evidence is not admissible. In order to make it easier for people to come forward, you need to have much clearer lines than we have had previously. There has been a whole variety of evidence that English law has said is not admissible, even though many people would think it was probative, because it is the safest way overall to deal with trials—it is the safest way to ensure that an appropriate balance is struck between complainant and defendant.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)
Surely the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord must be at cross purposes. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, put it on the basis that the witness is saying, “I wouldn’t do this, not only with this man but I wouldn’t do it with anybody, ever”, and the evidence is that she has. Is that perjury simply to go unresponded to in any shape or form?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I am afraid I did understand what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said. It is exactly as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, has put it. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is right in the way that he analysed this amendment: it would exclude that evidence. I understand that that is the consequence, and I am saying it is a good thing.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
From a woman’s point of view, I would just like to say that there are things I would have done at 20 that I absolutely would not do now, at 70. We can all learn and adapt our behaviour, so the past may not be relevant.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
As a woman, I say that the past might not be relevant but the truth might be, if you have just said, “I would never have done this” or “I have never done this”. I do not understand why the purpose of this amendment is to send a message; the point of the law is not just to send a message. Of course, we want women to get a fair shot at seeing people they are accusing of rape found guilty, but I do not want the state to be in a position where it can find people guilty based on the fact that you cannot probe the truth of what has been said. That is condescending to women, by the way. Women do not need to be so protected; they need people to do their jobs. But we do not need to alter the law to hide the truth in order to give women a fair shot.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle
I point out to all noble Lords who have spoken that victims can be of all genders. It is unfortunate that this debate has been specifically gendered.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is right. This is about sexual assault on anybody, whatever gender they are.
Does the right reverend Prelate want to intervene? Oh, I am sorry; they are leaving, for fear that it will never end.
Amendment 287 defines consent so that there is clarity about what is meant by consent in the new section of the Youth, Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999.
Amendment 288 is a procedural requirement. This proposed new clause would have the effect that no Section 41 evidence or questions—that is, about sexual conduct with a third party—could be admitted by a judge at trial unless there had been an application before trial in accordance with practice directions, and would ban applications being made immediately before or during the trial. It is an important procedural safeguard to ensure that the complainant will know before the trial starts what he, she or they may face.
Amendment 289 would insert a new clause to give the complainant a right of representation with legal aid, if they are financially eligible, to oppose any application to admit Section 41 material about them—that is, material about sexual conduct with a third party. This new clause would also give complainants a right of appeal to the Court of Appeal if the application is allowed in whole or in part. The new clause provides that the complainant is not compellable as a witness at the application. The purpose of these provisions is to recognise that the complainant should be treated as a party, rather than as an outsider, to the proceedings on issues of the extent to which his, her or their past is to be gone through in the trial, and it is perfectly legitimate.
Lord Judge (CB)
My Lords, I once tried a case where the most compelling evidence was given by a black woman who alleged that a white dentist had raped her. His case was that, as she sat in the dentist’s chair, she undid his fly and started sucking his penis. Her answer to the question put to her was, “I would never do that with a white man”, and it was compelling. If there had been evidence that in fact she had, that very compelling piece of evidence would have lost some of its compulsion. We have to be very careful not to send messages through legislation—messages we all share—because that is not the point of legislation.
I should add that there are plenty of times when evidence is inadmissible in law which may be probative, but there are, as far as I am aware—I cannot think of any; perhaps I will be corrected if I am wrong—few times where evidence which may assist the defendant is deemed inadmissible. That is an important step.
My other intervention is that, deep down in all this, there is a rather alarming—strange, really—new idea, which is that the Secretary of State should involve himself or herself in some of these important decisions. Let us look at the arrival of a friend, or an advocate’s friend—it does not matter what we call it; I personally wonder why that is necessary, when the prosecutor is supposed to be there as a minister of justice. I am looking at paragraph (e) of proposed new Clause 43A which would be inserted by Amendment 289. Why on earth should the Secretary of State be making regulations setting out procedure relating to hearings or appeals under this section? There is a perfectly good Criminal Procedure Rule Committee which produces Criminal Procedure Rules and is referred to in paragraph (b). With great respect, this has nothing whatever to do with the Executive. This is about the way cases are being conducted in court. Therefore, if there are going to be regulations, they should be produced either by primary legislation here or by the Criminal Procedure Rule Committee addressing the issues.
On Amendment 291, I am even more alarmed. Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause gives the Secretary of State the power to decide which judges may hear which cases. We do not allow that. It is an essential division that there is an Executive and that cases are tried by judges; the Executive have no say whatever in which judge will try which case. It would be very strange: “I think I would like Mr Justice So-and-so, or Mrs Justice So-and-so, to try this case”. It is unheard of.
More importantly in relation to the judiciary and to the whole of Amendment 291, I can confirm as a matter of certainty—I suspect this has been true since the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, was Lord Chief Justice—that judges are not allowed to try cases involving rape or serious sexual offences unless they have attended Judicial College training and continue to be refreshed in the various ways in which the law, the principles, the understandings and insights have been developing. As I say, though, my real concern is that if this is going to be statute, then for heaven’s sake, it should not be in the hands of the Secretary of State.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, I intervened earlier on Amendment 286 because of my concern about an absolute rule in this area. My concern is increased by the practical experience of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, in this matter. I am also concerned about Amendment 289 regarding the complainant’s right of representation in relation to an application and whether there should be evidence concerning sexual conduct, not merely for the reason the noble and learned Lord gave, with which I agree: that the prosecution are ministers of justice and are there to deal with such matters. I am also concerned that this is a recipe for delay. If it is really to be said that the victim is to be separately represented and able to make an application, presumably after notice has been given, and there is to be a right of appeal to the Court of Appeal, that is inevitably going to delay further trials that are already far too long delayed.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
On the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, about the criminal procedure rules, I agree with him. There is no need for the Secretary of State to intervene, and I accept that completely. Secondly, I also completely accept his point that the Secretary of State should not be making that determination; that is my drafting error.
I utterly repudiate the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about delay and non-representation, a position which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, also adopted to some extent. It is really important that the complainant have, and feel that they have, a voice in the process of what is going to happen to them at the trial. The point about delay could be dealt with by ensuring that these applications are all dealt with before the trial. If there is to be an appeal and the complainant says, “It is unfair that my past is being raked over in this way, I want to appeal”, then there may be occasional cases where there are delays, but their rights should be recognised. The fact that they have a voice is really important.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said that the prosecution is there to look after them. My experience is that the prosecution will try as much as possible to look after them but that they should have a separate voice. They will frequently feel—not because the prosecution is in any sense not doing his or her duty, but because they feel their voice is not adequately represented—that they should have a separate voice because they have separate concerns from those of the prosecution, which has to look at the situation not just from the point of view of the complainant but in a wider context. So I accept two out of the three points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, but none of those made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
On the first point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, regarding cases where it is vital to know what the position is—he gave the example of a trial he had heard—I am keen to draw a line so that people know where they stand, just as, in relation to the rules of evidence over many centuries, English law has said that some evidence is admissible and some is not, even though from time to time, it has been obvious that the inadmissible evidence might have been very compelling, but for reasons of bigger policy it was inadmissible.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I am sorry to find myself intervening at this point but there is no bigger policy than the right to a fair trial. Of course that goes for complainants—and I agree with much of the thrust of what my noble and learned friend says—but there must also be justice for someone accused of any matter, but particularly such a serious one as a sexual offence. The example given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, warranted more of an answer, and one could conceive of others.
I say that while acknowledging that for decades, too much sexual history has been admitted; there is no doubt in my mind about that. That was why Section 41 had to be enacted in the first place. Scholars in this area will be able to look back at the Hansard of the passage of Section 41 and its various iterations at the time. The section was actually more tightly drafted to begin with but noble Lords in this place, including on the Benches behind me, came up with compelling exceptional circumstances where it would do a grave injustice to a defendant for startling similar fact-type evidence not to be admitted.
I understand that even since the passage and enactment of Section 41, a lot of complainants—and, with all respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, quite possibly women in particular—have felt that there has still not been enough sensitivity on the part of certain judges. However, it cannot be right that if I as a complainant, of whatever sex, assert that a particular type of sexual activity is something I would never and could never consent to and have never consented to, and yet I did the day before—how can it be anything but an injustice to the defendant for that not to be admitted? If I am a man and I say I have been raped by another man because I would never have consented to sex with a man, and yet there is ample evidence of a third party saying that there has been consensual sex —that cannot be fair to the man in the dock who says, “Yes, we had consensual sex” and then the complainant, because he is embarrassed due to his family, his faith or whatever reason, now says that it was non-consensual. That cannot be right.
I agree that we must do more so that juries, judges and indeed society do not assume that past sexual history is determinative of consent, but in my view to say that it is always absolutely irrelevant would not comply with Article 6 of the convention and therefore the Human Rights Act. I do not mean to be difficult but I could not possibly have potential injustices of that magnitude on my conscience, and I do not think this Committee could either.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Stewart of Dirleton) (Con)
My Lords, in replying, I preface my remarks by commenting on points made by noble Lords. The first was made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, at the outset, while the Benches opposite were still thrashing out the batting order. If I may summarise the noble Lord’s position, I think it emphasised the importance of judicial discretion. A judge seized fully of the law and of the particular facts and circumstances applying to any case will most often be best placed to decide what should be done. I know that the noble Lord will recognise that my remarks cut both ways, and that he will hold me to them in the course of today’s debate. However, I fully accept what he had to say about the importance of judicial discretion.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I am grateful to everybody for taking part in the debate and very grateful for the care with which the Minister answered the issues. I am disappointed with his response on Section 28 and making sure that it is available in all courts in England and Wales. He said that he wanted to test the technology first, but there have been three pilots going for some time. I found that answer not altogether convincing so may come back to that matter on Report.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
“Assistance for bereaved persons and core participants at inquests and public inquiries
(1) With respect to inquests, and public inquiries relating to deaths or serious injuries, and where one or more public authority, or private entity whose relevant activity falls within subsection (2), are designated as “interested persons” (IPs) or “core participants” (CPs), bereaved IPs and CPs shall be entitled to publicly-funded legal assistance and representation at the same level or in proportion to the resources provided to the public authority or private entity, as set out in Schedule (Assistance for bereaved persons and core participants at inquests and public inquiries: amendment of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012).(2) Relevant activity of a private entity falls within this subsection where it—(a) is delegated or contracted from a public authority, or(b) is one where the private entity or individual owes a health and safety responsibility to the public or a section of it, including but not limited to sporting, leisure and entertainment events and premises, public transport systems and the provision of utilities and retail facilities.”Member’s explanatory statement
Combined with the proposed new schedule to follow Schedule 20, this amendment would ensure that bereaved persons and core participants at inquests and public inquiries received legal aid proportionate to the legal expenditure by any public authorities involved in the inquest or inquiry (so-called “equality of arms”).
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, this is a completely different topic. Amendment 269 would
“ensure that bereaved persons and core participants at inquests and public inquiries received legal aid proportionate to the legal expenditure by any public authorities involved in the inquest or inquiry”.
It is, in effect, the equality of arms measure.
In the Hillsborough situation, people suffered an incredibly grievous wrong in respect of their loved ones, then found themselves ranged against lawyers and QCs. As a QC myself, I make it clear that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with QCs, but imagine finding yourself ranged against seven public authorities, all of which have an interest in trying to ensure that their public authority is exonerated, while the individual victims have no right to legal representation at all. They may get the benefit of discretionary funding from the Lord Chancellor, who can give that funding for inquests, but it is entirely at the discretion of a Government Minister. That is inappropriate. In relation to these sorts of cases, the right course is that where there is a big disaster, the people who are most affected should be able to appear at the inquest, which is going to affect what may happen in the future, while having equality of arms with the person or bodies against whom they will be ranged.
Amendments 270 to 274 intend to establish
“a public advocate to provide advice to representatives of the deceased after major incidents.”
So many families affected by a major incident have nowhere to go because there is no lawyer experienced in these sorts of matters. They have nobody to speak on their behalf and find, all too often, the public sector unwilling to give them help—for fear that individual members of the public sector may be making their own section of it liable to some sort of damages in court subsequently. The public advocate scheme is a means of providing support for the victims in those tragedies. I very much hope that the Government will listen, look at these amendments favourably and recognise the injustices that have occurred over the years as a result of there not being proper representation at inquests nor a public advocate to speak for the victims of these disasters. I beg to move.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I rise to offer Green support for Amendment 269 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to which I have attached my name. I offer support for all the amendments here. The noble and learned Lord spoke about a big group case affecting many people. I shall to a single case.
In 2014, a seven-year-old boy, Zane Gbangbola, went to sleep in his bed. He never woke up, and his father, sleeping nearby, has been forced to use a wheelchair ever since. The Fire Brigades Union, the PCS Union and many other people—including his father Kye’s doctors—were convinced that Zane was poisoned by hydrogen cyanide gas that came from a landfill site nearby, carried by floodwaters. Before this tragic event, the Environment Agency had actually protected its own staff in a nearby building with a special membrane in the foundations to ensure there was no risk of an event like this.
There was, of course, an inquest. At that inquest no fewer than six public bodies, whose actions might have been called into question, were represented by the best legal counsel money can buy—with public money. The Gbangbola family was denied legal aid, so the grieving parents, sitting in a court room and hearing the most awful possible details about their son’s death, were forced to operate with only limited legal support, with funds raised by a public appeal. As the noble and learned Lord said, the European Convention on Human Rights calls for an equality of arms in trials. There was no such equality at Zane’s inquest.
We also need to stress the public interest concern here. As was the case, tragically, in Zane’s death, we know that the world is facing new dangers. The country is facing new dangers. We need honesty and transparency about what those are. The weather that led to that flooding was linked to the climate emergency. Several years after this, Kye Gbangbola said
“we need to unlock the doors for the truth to come out”.
This is about the death of one child, but it is also about the safety of everybody. The lack of legal aid at that inquest was a factor in the truth not coming out. The family is continuing to campaign. Indeed, I was in Glasgow with them at a side event to the COP 26 climate talks. They are calling for a Zane’s Law to address weaknesses in our law that were deliberately introduced a decade ago, putting profits before human lives. This is why the seven amendments about a public advocate are terribly important. We cannot rely on families—indeed, sometimes there will not be a family—in a case where someone has died, to ensure that the courts are helping us to uncover what actually happened in the case of tragedies.
Had there been equality of arms at Zane’s inquest, we might be much further down the road to getting a change in the law that we all need to keep us safe. I strongly urge the Government to act on all of these amendments, but particularly Amendment 269 and the related amendment, not just for Zane or the Hillsborough families but for everybody.
Baroness Newlove (Con)
My Lords, I support this amendment. As a former Victims Commissioner, I have met too many victims who had asked for representation or legal aid and felt that their voice was not heard. They were, in their words, “bullied” by the heavies on the other side, who were rich and could pay for QCs or whatever. Again, they felt that their voice was not going to be heard.
I am talking about high-end cases here; I am talking about terrorism, bombers, women hearing their husband exploded at the other end of the phone, and still have no help from the Government. I support this amendment because now, with all the high-risk terrorism we are seeing—even with the Tunisian support that was very poor, I have to say, because there was a third party involved—we are going to lose the public coming with us and understanding what is going on. An inquest is not a courtroom as such: everybody is there, and all the families are trying to listen about their loved ones and their lives. I know from personal experience about when somebody is talking about our loved ones and yet nobody can stand up from our side to present the same quality, the same questioning.
In this day and age, I ask the Minister and the Government to have a round-table talk about how we can fix this. The inquest is such an irritant to the families, and it does not help them get past the trauma. If we cannot help them, they will not be confident to go through the system. These are high-end cases we are talking about. I know the families of Hillsborough as well, and they have gone through the mill over all these years. Did they get any justice? They have had to fight hard, tooth and nail.
I heard one woman—I will not name her—whose son heard that bomb go off on an oil rig, and the Government were still redacting and did not give the legal aid. The time has come to have an open and transparent discussion about giving the support that they quite rightly deserve.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, some time ago when the Hillsborough matter was before this House, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, I think, and I put forward a suggestion that the coroner in an inquest should have power to allow a public authority, or an authority with resources, to put forward a defence using lawyers for that purpose, and that a condition of granting such permission should be that the authority is responsible for providing the necessary funding for the relatives of the deceased to be represented. The choice of who they would use, of course, would be for the relatives, but the provision of the necessary money would be a matter for the authority—at the level at which the authority wanted to do it—so that there would be obvious equality of arms.
I think it is a much better solution than legal aid. Needless to say, I have had, some time ago, some experience of dealing with legal aid. I had the authority as Lord Chancellor to grant legal aid in specific cases that I thought required it, but I think it is much better, fairer and less burdensome to the public, that this should be the rule. It seems to me this is quite easy to systematise when you have more than one of these authorities. Hillsborough is a good example of what happened when there was no proper representation for some of the relatives. This is a suggestion that goes along with the spirit of the first amendment the noble and learned Lord has put forward, and I venture to think that it is an effective point of view.
I am glad to see that the noble Lord, I referred to has returned because I think he will probably remember that he and I were pretty well agreed about what should be done. Needless to say, the Home Office said it would be reviewed when the details of Hillsborough, the prosecutions and so on, were finished. Of course, that happened some time ago, but I see no sign of any kind of innovation from the Home Office, until it agrees with this amendment in spirit.
Lord Beith (LD)
We have always been able to rely on the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, for ingenuity when difficult problems have to be resolved. This one seems to have got lost in the Home Office somewhere. That is a pity because the problem that these amendments raise is long-running and serious. It is open to discussion, whether the amendments are the best way of dealing it, but I do not think we can go on ignoring it or failing to deal with it in any adequate way.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, I too support the principle behind Amendment 269. We regularly see the disturbing prospect of bereaved families being unrepresented when public bodies have very competent representation. This undermines public confidence in justice, and it sometimes impedes the ability of the coroner or the public inquiry to get to the truth of matters of enormous public importance.
However, I am not persuaded that the mechanism contained in Amendment 269, in proposed new subsection (1), is the correct one. It provides that the representation for bereaved families must be
“at the same level or in proportion to the resources provided to the public authority or private entity”.
I would be content if competent representation were provided.
I draw to the attention of the Committee that there are cases in the Court of Appeal where it has been argued, under the Human Rights Act, that a defendant in a criminal case was entitled to representation under legal aid by Queen’s Counsel because the prosecution was represented by Queen’s Counsel. The Court of Appeal said no, and that what they are entitled to—and rightly so—is competent representation. So I think this is going too far.
The noble and Learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, suggested one way forward: that the public body should make provision. Another way of dealing with it would be for the chairman of the inquiry, or the coroner, to have a statutory discretion to order that specific persons be provided with public funding, whether by legal aid or otherwise. There are a variety of mechanisms, but I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, that the principle now needs to be enacted.
Lord Sandhurst (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak shortly. I have always had a long interest in legal aid and its proper provision. My concern is that this amendment is aimed at the right target but goes too far. Look, for example, at the wording; as I understand it, it would apply every time there is an inquest involving someone who has died in a hospital. If that has been the result of possible negligence on the part of the hospital—I am talking about an NHS hospital here—then there is a potential claim against the hospital. If that potential claim has any reasonable merit, it is likely that solicitors experienced in medical and legal work will undertake the inquest because, in due course, if the claim is brought and damages are recovered and costs awarded, the cost of representation at the inquest will be recoverable in the personal injury action. That has been the case ever since the “Marchioness” disaster and the costs thereafter.
All I say is this: there should be representation in appropriate cases involving state institutions. We can all think of examples—not just Hillsborough; it could be a hospital or something else—where the state and a public authority are involved, and it is unfair to the family to have to scrabble around to get funds if they can. I would like to see careful consideration given by the Government to how this can be properly designed to find a balance. There is a strain on public resources; there are many other areas where legal aid is not provided, particularly in the family courts, and we know that funds are short. Equally, they should consider whether, in appropriate cases, it should be at the coroner’s discretion to direct the Legal Aid Agency to look at this. I argue that the Government should think very carefully about this and about what would be a fair balance, given the strain on public resources, to ensure that people who need and deserve it get resources provided to them.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I support this whole group of amendments from my noble and learned friend and others. The reasons given by noble Lords are hugely compelling and, if anything, I think some noble Lords opposite are not enthusiastic enough. I hear the arguments about the public purse, but we would not be here if civil legal aid, in particular, had not been altogether obliterated and if there was not such a continuing injustice to bereaved families.
Frankly, I am not persuaded that there is something so awful about a greater equality of arms between hospital trusts and families who feel they have been sorely let down, or indeed between those families and a range of public authorities who can afford not competence but brilliance—they can afford the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, over there. I am not sure that “near competent” would be enough if you were faced with my friend the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. We need to have something like the intention behind this amendment; there should be some kind of equality of arms for these desperate people.
My heart broke when the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, said that she has spoken to bereaved families who think of an inquest as an irritant. We should all be ashamed of that. Inquests, which are supposed to get to the bottom of things and be at least some kind of comfort to those families, should be the absolute opposite of an irritant.
I want to encourage my noble and learned friend not to let this go into the long grass, or to become an interesting probe that does not get anywhere because we are worried about the precise mechanism, because I am very concerned—we are still in the pandemic—about the coronavirus inquiry or inquiries that must come soon. There may not be another vehicle for amendments such as these, or legislation such as this, in time. It is incredibly important that, in a year or two, or whenever those inquiries happen, we have resolved this to some extent.
I fear we will not have resolved the general, dismal picture when it comes to civil legal aid, but at least we can come up with some kind of fix, however imperfect, to redress the balance of advice and representation for bereaved families. There will be a lot of very impoverished, vulnerable, bereaved families who will have nowhere near the access to private or public money. To be honest, whatever your ideological position, even the inequality between private corporations and bereaved families is bad enough, but surely, with public authorities and public money, there can be no excuse for such an imbalance in the use of that public money if we are really interested in the pursuit of justice.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, I also agree absolutely with the principles behind these amendments. It seems as though the Committee has been unanimously supportive up till now.
My question to the Minister is: why have we waited so long for something to happen in the area of inquests? I had hoped that there might be something in what has been rightly described as a Christmas tree Bill to help us along the way, but there is not. It has needed the amendments from my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, to raise this issue. I was privileged enough to chair a Fabian commission on legal aid, which reported more than four years ago. We considered this urgent—as I think the world did—then and for many years before. At one stage, Hillsborough was a classic example which aroused public interest in this issue.
Is there work being done at the moment within the Minister’s department to look urgently at this issue to see whether some solution cannot be found? Never mind the rest of civil legal aid—though my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti knows I agree with her absolutely on that—is there not something that can be done in this area as a matter of some urgency?
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, I hope that the Committee will accept my words when I say that the Government are sympathetic to the difficulties facing all bereaved families. At an earlier stage in the consideration of this Bill, my colleague, my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar who has ministerial responsibility for this matter, referred to the powerful feelings he had, as a resident of Liverpool, as the Hillsborough tragedy unfolded. For my part, I speak as one who has acted for a relative of someone killed in an accident which was sufficient to warrant the convening of a fatal accident inquiry in relation to the helicopter crash at the Clutha Vaults public house in Glasgow. I was funded by legal aid, and I hope that means I was at least competent, while at all times striving towards the excellence of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. The Government believe that bereaved and otherwise affected families should be at the heart of any inquest and inquiry process that follows a disaster.
Amendments 269 to 274 seek to establish an independent public advocate. This is a call to which the Government have been sympathetic, but I echo the reservations expressed, I think by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, as to whether the superstructure envisaged by the noble and learned Lord’s amendment is the appropriate way forward.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I have given evidence at numerous criminal trials, in the magistrates’ court and the Crown Court, but the most vicious, adversarial cross-examination was at the inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent Brazilian shot and killed by the police following the 7 July 2005 bombings. There is no way that process could have been described as inquisitorial. Indeed, part way through that proceeding, the coroner had to advise the barrister representing the police not to proceed in the way that he had up until that point. While in some cases it may be simply a neutral, inquisitorial search for the truth, that is not how a lot of inquests turn out.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving the Committee the benefit of his experience. Perhaps it is that experience which informed, or helped to inform, the remarks of the Chief Coroner, his honour Justice Thomas Teague, who has said publicly that one of his key objectives in his role is to ensure that the inquisitorial ethos of the inquest process is maintained. I hope that demonstrates a resolve within the system to address the failings or, at best, the over-eagerness, of counsel whose conduct the noble Lord described.
The amendment to increase the scope of legal aid at inquests would run counter to the approach of retaining their inquisitorial character. There is a risk that additional lawyers present at an inquest would not provide an overall improvement for the bereaved, that being something which ought to be a primary consideration, for the reasons expressed by my noble friend Lady Newlove. It is foreseeable—I think this is the point raised by my noble friend Lord Sandhurst—that the presence of additional lawyers could have the unintended consequence of turning an inquisitorial process into a complex exercise—
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I do not doubt the sincerity of his concerns about trying to maintain informality in inquisitorial process. However, can it ever be conscionable for an inquest to involve a totally unrepresented core participant or bereaved family in circumstances where those whom the bereaved family suspect of being responsible for their loved one’s death are represented by professional lawyers, counsel and QCs? Can that basic inequality ever be conscionable, not least when we are dealing with lay people, with public concern and with public money that is all going to some parties and not to the bereaved?
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her intervention.
I was going on to say that, for bereaved families who need legal help, advice and assistance are always available under the legal aid scheme, subject to the means and merits test. This can help preparation—
Baroness Newlove (Con)
I take on board what my noble and learned friend says. I come from a victim’s perspective in all this. While it is all rule of law and whatever, victims’ families do not feel any of what my noble and learned friend is saying, because it feels like the professionals are dealing with all the processes. Victims’ families see all these high-end QCs and whether the other person is competent—I think that also gives a two-tier process for the victims’ families. Why should competency be at one end? I take on board what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said. The whole point is that they do not get that advice because there is nobody there to advise them.
I have worked with the Chief Coroner. He has no powers to control coroners across the country. Inquests are so poorly funded that there is no advice for victims in all this. We are missing all the pieces of the jigsaw. I say it with no disrespect, but it does not happen on the ground. Families want respect and dignity. All they see is the other side building all the towers, but not for them. They feel irritated, upset and disrespected. Most importantly, they feel that it is all political window-dressing. Once again, the law does not represent the families, who are the ones who are hurt and traumatised.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend’s personal experience and her service as Victims’ Commissioner lend force to her eloquence.
I shall go on to address the funding available for attendance at inquests, but in answer to the points just raised and to reiterate, in the vast majority of inquests the simplicity of the four questions which the coroner is obliged to seek to answer is such that legal representation and legal aid will not be necessary. In circumstances such as those my noble friend described, where there is complexity or where the competing interests are such that lawyers are briefed on behalf of agencies perhaps seeking to lay down defensive positions in the face of future litigation, it is right that there is a mechanism whereby bereaved families or bereaved individuals might be represented.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the Minister for giving way. He said that it is right that families should be represented, but surely he would acknowledge that that has not been the case, as in the case I cited, as well as in many others where families have not been able to be represented.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady Newlove, focused on the families being represented and having a voice, but would not the inquisitorial process, which is supposed to arrive at the truth, be improved and more likely to get to the correct conclusion if there was a balance of arms—a balance of forces—as we have been talking about?
I apologise to the Committee: I probably should have declared my position as vice-chair on the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Legal Aid.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
Ultimately, my Lords, arrival at the truth is the objective of all legal process in this area, but the inquest convened under the coroner is but a part of that overall inquiry. That the truth is the ultimate objective does not, with respect to the noble Baroness’s point, confirm that in every case there must be legal representation. I maintain that for the vast majority of inquests the questions posed—the circumstances—are not such as to oblige in the interests of justice that there be representation for all parties. The amendment to increase the scope of legal aid at inquests would run counter to that approach.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, I made a mistake earlier in not referring to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, properly. That was my error; I am sorry for it, and I am sure he will forgive me.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
Before the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, replies, I should say that I did not make reference specifically to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in relation to the proposal that he and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, advanced for the funding of representation in these areas. I will undertake to have the department of my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar look into the response that was made to the proposal which my noble and learned friend and the noble Lord put forward at that time and see if an answer can be given to the Committee at some appropriate stage as to how that was considered and what conclusions were reached.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I am very grateful to everybody who has spoken in the debate. Everybody apart from the Minister supported the principle. There were various specific suggestions as to how the proposal could be improved, which I certainly take on board. As ever, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, put forward an incredibly sensible proposal. Amendment 269 says that if a public authority is designated an “interested person” or a “core participant”, then legal aid should provide funding proportionate to that to the families. I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is saying, “Let the relevant interested party or core participant from the public sector pay for it”, and I would not have any objection to that.
I have to say that the Minister’s response was awful—and this is not in any way intended to be an attack on the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart of Dirleton, who delivered, as ever, a very careful answer. It was awful because it indicated that the Government are going backwards. It represented a degree of complacency about the problem that was entirely unwarranted. The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, very effectively expressed what the problem was. The noble Lord, Lord Beith, indicated, quite rightly, that this problem has existed for a very long time.
The problem was exemplified by the Hillsborough case. The families, having had a very fair hearing from Lord Justice Taylor in the public inquiry, then attended an inquest, day after day, having to cross the Pennines to get there, where they saw the findings of Lord Justice Taylor, as he then was, eroded by representatives of public authorities able to take advantage of their total inequality of arms, aided and abetted by some elements in the press—not all the press, but some elements—which used the process to denigrate those who had died. It was absolutely appalling.
The issue is not just the suffering of the individuals but the disrepute into which it brings our legal system. If our legal system is unable to come to an appropriate answer because of the inequality of arms—all the public authorities are represented by all the lawyers in the world and the families, who have a cause and are right, cannot get their position across—then what good is our legal system? That is the point that everybody in the debate has been talking about, and the Minister’s answer showed absolutely no appreciation whatever that that is the problem.
We will not have another opportunity to come back with something. Amendment 269 and the schedule to be put in after Schedule 20 deals with it by ensuring that where there is a public authority in the firing line, the families should be represented. I note what the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, says, but all too often long-running problems with particular health bodies never get properly recognised because ultimately the health body is properly represented and the families are not. We will be back. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Section 6 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956: removal of time limitation
Proceedings for the offence under section 6 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 (intercourse with a girl between thirteen and sixteen) are not to be barred only by virtue of the passage of time since the date of the alleged offence.”
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 277 in my name and I fully support Amendment 292C in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, and others.
In 2004, when this House also acted in its judicial capacity, it considered an appeal by a Mr J, who had been convicted of three counts of indecent assault and one count of gross indecency with a child. Mr J, 35 years, had seduced the 13 year-old daughter of a friend. The charges of indecent assault actually related to full sexual intercourse. There was no doubt that he did those acts, for which he was originally sentenced to three years’ imprisonment, but this House quashed the convictions for indecent assault. The reasons why are still relevant today. Men who seduced girls between the ages of 13 and 16 before 1 May 2004 are now immune from prosecution on account of this case. It is still possible to do something about this, but legislation is needed, hence my amendment.
The problem is that sexual offences committed before 1 May 2004 must be prosecuted under the Sexual Offences Act 1956. Under that Act, the applicable offence is unlawful sexual intercourse, as outlined in Section 6. In the 1956 Act, there is a time limit of one year from the alleged commission of the offence under Section 6. Proceedings must therefore be instituted within a year from then. This time limit is clear and unambiguous and can be found in paragraph 10 of Schedule 2 to the Act.
The problem had been going on for some time, since before May 2004, but prosecutors were for a long time able to evade the time limit. Instead of charging for underage sexual intercourse, which could not be done if the offence was discovered or prosecuted too late, they would charge for indecent assault in relation to the same underage sexual intercourse.
That is where the J case comes in. Mr J argued that this was impermissible and the House accepted that argument. Since that time in 2004, men who procured sexual intercourse from vulnerable and impressionable girls before 1 May 2004, perhaps introducing them to like-minded friends, have been practically immune from prosecution. The only applicable offences in the 1956 Act were time-barred as a result of the time limit relating to underage sexual intercourse.
To avoid confusion, I should say that the time limit problem does not apply where the offence has been committed since 1 May 2004. If a man had sexual intercourse with a girl aged between 13 and 16 after 1 May 2004, he can be prosecuted for the new offence of sexual activity with a child. That was created by the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and no equivalent time limit is applied to it.
Many cases, however, are historical in nature and precede 1 May 2004. The 1956 Act must then still be applied, with all its anomalies—including this time limit. In theory, if two women came forward today and woman 1 reported abuse that took place on 30 April 2004 while woman 2 reported abuse that took place the next day, on 1 May 2004, only woman 2’s case would proceed, because the modern law of the 2003 Act applies to only her case.
Some may read this speech and question why I am assuming female victims and not children of any gender. Here, the story gets worse still. This time limit applies only to offences committed against underage girls; if the victim were a boy, it would be different, as historical cases of sexual intercourse between men and boys under 16 can still be prosecuted. The time limit applies only to girls. How can the law deny justice and discriminate in this way and this House not seek to put it right?
In fact, we can find anomaly after anomaly in this area. In my research, I read the work of Dr Jonathan Rogers, assistant professor in criminal justice at Cambridge University, who gives a full account of them. For example, Mr J was in fact still punished for the act of gross indecency with a child which related to oral sex with the same consenting child. It is incomprehensible that oral sex with the abused girl could be prosecuted at any time while the sexual intercourse had to be prosecuted within one year.
Some may say this is a past problem, but it is a present one, because we are still uncovering abuses that happened before 1 May 2004. Historical sexual abuse is, sadly, coming to light too frequently in the news. We know that girls are regularly threatened into silence for long periods. Many girls are victimised in this way and recognise themselves as victims or have the confidence to go to the police only much more than one year later. That is well known.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, I wish to support both amendments, and echo the very strong points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, regarding Amendment 277, which relates to Section 6 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 and removing the time limitation on proceedings for the offence of intercourse with a girl aged between 13 and 16.
This appears to be a loophole left over from the Sexual Offences Act 2003, as ably argued by Jonathan Rogers of Cambridge University in his chapter in a book analysing the law on historic offences. He referred to the case of J, outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, earlier, affecting cases where the offence occurred before 2004. In that chapter he says that a workaround regarding the time limit on reporting offences was:
“In the years leading up to the SOA 2003, this unusual time limit proved to be tolerable only because it used to be evaded (!), namely by charging instead indecent assault under section 14 of the SOA 1956, for which the underage girl could also not give effective consent, but for which no time limit was provided in the statute. So ‘rough justice’ could still be done, and it frequently was.”
His chapter goes on to explain that much of the law, including subsequent judgments, is grounded in
“a toxic mixture of misogyny, prejudice and ignorance.”
Reading evidence from the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and its various specific reports on child sexual abuse in certain areas of society, it is absolutely clear that victims—especially child victims—of sexual abuse often find it difficult to come forward at the time. It is worrying, therefore, that there has to be a workaround to deal with a law that reflects late Victorian society’s attitudes to girls aged 13 to 16 being abused.
Amendment 292C asks for an extension of time limits for prosecutions for common assault in domestic abuse cases. I look forward to hearing the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, speaking to her amendment, and propose to speak briefly only on one common theme that links these two amendments.
In 2017, the Ministry of Justice responded to a petition to Parliament that sought to remove time limits on the victims of domestic abuse getting legal aid, saying:
“Respondents to the survey in particular felt that the time limit is arbitrary—respondents felt that a victim does not stop being a victim after the passage of time. Similarly, they felt that the risk of experiencing violence does not necessarily dissipate over time.”
There is substantial evidence to show that many women—it usually is women—do not report the first, second or even 10th incident of domestic violence. The reasons for this are many, but fear of the behaviour of their partner is key. They may also still be in a relationship with the abuser, and there is the worry—too often well founded, sadly—that they will not be taken seriously when they report the behaviour. The current six-month time limit means that many common assault charges time out and the women cannot access justice, and the protection and support that the justice process can offer them is denied.
Both amendments seek to change the time limits. First, there is a loophole that needs to be sorted out in a 21st century world that understands child sex abuse better than seven decades ago, let alone in the late 19th century. Secondly, they seek to extend the time limit to up to two years for domestic abuse victims to be able to report their abuse to the police. I shall be glad to support both amendments. The courts and prosecutors should not have to rely on workarounds.
Baroness Newlove (Con)
My Lords, as the former Victims’ Commissioner, I am amazed by these time limits. To find our domestic abuse victims were being constantly told they were timed out beggars belief in the 21st century, considering we can buy an item in our homes that has a 10-year guarantee, a two-year guarantee, or whatever, yet common assault has six months. What does that say about how we look at human lives?
Under current rules on common assault, any instances of common assault, regardless of context, must be reported within six months of the incident occurring. If a report is made outside this six-month period, there is no option, as has been said, for the police or the CPS to bring charges and, unless there are other charges to be brought, the alleged perpetrator faces no further action.
The CPS definition of common assault is
“any act by which a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to suffer or apprehend immediate unlawful violence.”
It does not necessarily have to include literal physical violence; it can include raising a fist, spitting or using threatening words.
The reason for the rule is that we need cases to travel through the system quickly—especially considering recent court backlogs and long delays across the system. However, the rules on common assault are built on the assumption that crimes can be reported quickly and easily. This might be the case for a fight in the street with a stranger, but it cannot and should not be applied to domestic abuse contexts.
Regarding the impact on victims, most will not even know that this law exists until they come forward and find that it is too late. They will make the hugely brave decision to come forward and make a report to the police, only to be told that time has run out and there is nothing to be done. Victims are being left completely in the dark.
Perpetrators, however, will often have the support and guidance of a legal representative, especially if they have offended in the past. It is highly likely that perpetrators are much more aware of this time limit than the victims—some perpetrators may even use this loophole in the law to their advantage.
The time limit not only allows perpetrators to carry on abusing, it emboldens them to do so. There are sure to be cases where a victim has come forward with their report; it has failed due to the time limit, and they have faced further abuse and violence as punishment or retribution for telling the police. The time limit in its current form is putting victims in harm’s way.
The offences covered by common assault—threatening words, raising a fist and spitting—are the types of crime that can easily escalate if perpetrators are not stopped. The time limit is preventing any kind of intervention. The message being sent to victims by the current law is that common assault is not important enough to prosecute, and that victims will be listened to only if they have been more seriously hurt.
Common assault is often the only charge left to lay. Police officers have spoken to me about their frustration in trying to reach the higher evidence threshold for actual bodily harm or coercive control and being told by the CPS that it should be downgraded to common assault instead. However, because of this rule, it is often too late. A dangerous perpetrator is allowed to go free and will probably go on to offend again, against the same victim or someone new.
Police forces have also spoken about the complexity of investigating domestic abuse. It can often require extensive digital investigation and the need to gather medical and forensic evidence. All this takes time and often cannot be done in a six-month window, even if the victims report straightaway.
There are examples of victims coming forward with reports a month or two after an incident occurs—so within the time limit—but cases still failing because they cannot be adequately investigated in the time left. So, it is not just about victims coming forward, it is about the complex nature of domestic abuse, which is not currently reflected in the law.
BBC figures obtained through freedom of information requests show that nearly 13,000 cases of common assault in the domestic abuse context were closed due to the time limit between 2016-17 and 2020-21. Only 30 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales responded to the freedom of information request, so the real figure is likely to be much higher. In the same period, the number of common assaults flagged as domestic abuse increased by 71%. Meanwhile, the number of these common assaults that resulted in charges being brought fell by 23%.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I support both noble Baronesses’ amendments and urge the Minister to accept them with alacrity or, if that is not possible, to work with the noble Baronesses and parliamentary counsel to achieve the compelling intentions behind both amendments.
The last thing my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley needs to do is apologise to the Committee for not being a lawyer because, if I may say so, her speech in support of her amendment combined every ounce of detailed legal reasoning with a humanity of which any lawyer would be proud. The anomaly to which she refers goes back to the 1956 Act, which sat around on the statute book before the 1997 Labour Government conducted a sex offences review. Clearly, this anomaly has not been corrected.
This particular offence is very grave, and it should never have had a time limit. In criminal law, we understand why certain lesser offences should be time-limited. We would not want every ordinary common assault or minor act of shoplifting not to be subject to a time limit, with this sword of Damocles potentially hanging over young people for the rest of their lives. We understand the public policy reasons to have time limits, but I suggest that to have them for such grave offences is contrary to the rule of law and fundamental human rights. The anomaly to which my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley spoke so well clearly puts this jurisdiction in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and probably Article 14, on account of the various types of discrimination that are also involved—between not just boys and girls at the time, but children and adults who did not consent. We rightly assume that young children do not have the capacity to consent.
My noble friend Lady Kennedy is so right that the rule against retrospectivity is a presumption against changing the substance of a criminal offence. She put the point well: it is not there to prevent us from dealing with procedural obstacles that are unconscionable, as she is attempting here. So I see no problem at all with retrospectivity, because it would be contrary to any notion of human rights or justice for a defendant charged today, tomorrow or as soon as this is enacted, to argue that he thought he was in the clear because enough years had passed since this terrible crime. Even with substantive changes to criminal law, there have been exceptions to the presumption against retroactivity, as we saw in the higher courts some years ago when the position on marital rape was changed. In one case, the defendant said, “This is not fair; I raped my wife when I thought I was allowed to.” In any event, this is a procedural matter that is standing in the way of dealing with a terrible anomaly and human rights violation that will be ongoing unless we deal with it.
As to Amendment 292C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, and her supporters, common assault can be a minor enough offence in certain contexts, such as the two young people who have a fight. It is fine to leave a short time limit for that, but domestic abuse is a very particular context in which the victim, whoever in the family they are, may well still be in the abusive situation within those two years. Rather than create a separate specific offence of common assault domestically, why not deal with it in the fairly neat way that the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, has?
If the Minister or his colleagues disagree with me, no doubt they, with the aid of parliamentary counsel, can come up with the right fix. However, I say to this Committee that both of these matters need to be dealt with not in future but with this vehicle. Frankly, there are lots of things in this very large Bill that I do not agree with, but the Bill would do something good if these two matters were tackled immediately.
Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I was very happy to put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, but first I will refer briefly to Amendment 277. The first thing I have to say is that, as any inhabitant of the West Midlands will know, the noble Baroness who moved the amendment is the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley. It is pronounced “Cradely”, not “Cradley”—it is a bit like “Chumley” instead of “Cholmondeley”.
My second point is this: the point made by the noble Baroness about the amount of time that sometimes elapses before individuals feel able to come forward is a moot one. Yesterday evening, I watched a new programme with my daughter. It was a documentary on a well-publicised streaming platform that begins with the letter “N”; I will not advertise it here. The programme is called “Procession” and deals with the way in which five men, all of whom were the victims of predatory Catholic clergy 30 to 40 years ago, have finally started being able to talk about what happened to them and come to terms with it. When something like that happens to one at that age—in this particular instance, these young men were even younger than the people we are talking about, aged between 13 and 16—it does not take a brilliant imagination to work out the sort of trauma that it must instil in people and how difficult it can be even to recognise it oneself, let alone bring oneself to talk to others about it. The noble Baroness’s point was well put; it will be hard to disagree with her.
On Amendment 292C, first, I put on record my thanks—indeed, our thanks—to Yvette Cooper, who has been pursuing this forensically in another place. Her latest attempt was made today when she asked the Home Secretary directly what her view on this is and whether anything will happen. I am not clear why we are debating this amendment at all because, on 5 July, Victoria Atkins, now in the Ministry of Justice but the then Home Office Minister, said this in the House of Commons when talking specifically about this same amendment:
“We take this issue very seriously, and I can assure the House that we will return with a proposal at a later stage. I certainly do not rule out an amendment, if appropriate, in the Lords. This must be looked into”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/21; col. 572.]
There it is on the record.
As the noble Baroness said, the Home Office seems to have developed a sort of hotline with certain reporters in the BBC, where certain potential developments are briefed to the BBC, which puts them out fairly prominently. There is then complete radio silence; there is no acknowledgement by the Government or Home Office in any way, shape or form that a briefing took place, so we are left in a slight quandary as to whether it did or not. Unlike some noble Lords, those of us on the Cross Benches have a high enough regard for the BBC that we tend to believe it when it comes out with something like this, so I find this practice of putting these things out into the public domain then saying nothing about them somewhat unhelpful. Frankly, it is a sort of legislator abuse since many of us are trying to do our best in talking on behalf of others and it is confusing when the Government apparently say one thing to the media and then stand at the Dispatch Box and say something similar to what they have been saying, sometimes for many years. My noble friend Lady Newlove put the case clearly.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove; I also support my noble friend in her powerful advocacy for her own amendment.
I want to emphasise a couple of points made by the noble Baroness. She referred to HMIC report, Police Response to Violence Against Women and Girls. I must say it makes for very sober reading about the inadequate response of many police forces to these issues. We know from the report and from the statistics referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Russell, that many cases do not proceed through the criminal justice system and, of the offences that do come to the attention of the police, many do not proceed any further. I would not argue that time limits are the sole reason, but they are a factor. I am indebted to Refuge, which does fantastic work in this area, for setting out some of the challenges that particularly women experiencing domestic abuse face and why they delay reporting incidents of common assault. They may feel understandably traumatised or physically unsafe immediately after the incident. They may still be in a relationship with the perpetrator. They may be dealing with the traumatic and logistical challenges of fleeing the scene.
Due to the six-month time limit on charging summary common assault offences, by the time many women are ready to speak to the police, they are told that the charging time limit has passed and there are no further opportunities for them to seek justice against their perpetrator or access protection through criminal restraining orders. There are so many reasons why, quite legitimately, women in particular are not able to come forward and meet the time limit. I appeal to the Minister not to respond with a typical ministerial response but to say that he will take this away and look at it. I echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Russell. I have noticed the practice of announcements being made in the media about what the Home Secretary is going to do but then often dying a death. We realise that sometimes they are flying a kite to see how it lands, but this is not the way to do business on such sensitive and important issues. I hope that the Minister will bring us comfort.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments. I shall add two very brief points in relation to Amendment 277, which was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. First, the noble Baroness referred in her speech to the Appellate Committee decision in R v J. The Committee may be interested to know that in that decision Lord Bingham of Cornhill, the senior Law Lord, said at paragraph 15 that the history of the 1956 Act
“has been shown to result in much internal inconsistency and lack of coherence”.
His Lordship added that the fact that an unambiguous statutory provision—and it is unambiguous—is
“anachronistic, or discredited, or unconvincing”
does not enable a court to do anything about it. This Committee and Parliament are, of course, under no such inhibition, and for the reasons that have been given, I hope we will do something about it.
The only other point I want to make is that any defendant in any criminal case who believes that the passage of time results in unfairness to them is perfectly entitled to submit to the court that it would be an abuse of process for the trial to continue. They are perfectly entitled so to argue, but that is not a reason why we should not amend the law in the way suggested.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, did not refer to the opinion of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, in the case of J. She dissented—notwithstanding Lord Bingham’s inability to change the law—in these words:
“In short, the 1956 Act was a mess when it was enacted and became an ever greater mess with later amendments. It is not possible to discern within it such a coherent Parliamentary intention as to require it to be construed so as to forbid prosecution for a “mere” act of sexual intercourse after 12 months where that act properly falls within the definition of an indecent assault. Although we do have to try to make sense of the words Parliament has used, we do not have to supply Parliament with the thinking that it never did and words that it never used.”
I think we can see which side the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, was on in that case.
The restriction has had an interesting history. Non-consensual sex was, and is, of course, rape, but consensual sex was a different matter. A girl was protected until the age of 10 under Queen Elizabeth I, to the age of 12 under George IV, 13 in 1875 and finally 16 in 1885. The time limit for bringing proceedings was at first within three months in 1885, which was increased to six months in 1904 and to nine months in 1922, and a provision of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1928 increased the time limit to 12 months. It was anomalous then, and it is anomalous now, and I fully support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley.
Amendment 292C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, seeks to extend normal time limits imposed on summary proceedings in the magistrates’ court and suggests that an offence of common assault may be brought within a period of six months from the date of reporting, rather than the date of the incident, with an outside limit of two years where it comes within the ambit of domestic abuse. This is an issue that might well have been discussed in the recent passage of the Domestic Abuse Bill. Summary proceedings are really intended to be summary. Assault and battery are attacks or threats of attack on the person. If significant injuries are caused, they should be tried on indictment in the Crown Court as ABH—assault occasioning actual bodily harm. So where is the dividing line between common assault and ABH?
The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, referred to the CPS guidance Offences Against the Person, Incorporating the Charging Standard, dated 6 January 2020, which states that common assault is charged
“where injuries amount to no more than … Grazes; Scratches; Abrasions; Minor bruising; Swellings; Reddening of the skin; Superficial cuts.”
By contrast, ABH includes
“damaged teeth or bones, extensive and severe bruising, cuts requiring suturing”
and injuries
“that result in loss of consciousness.”
ABH is appropriate where
“the victim is vulnerable or intimidated”,
including
“a pattern of similar offending against the victim”,
and if a person suffers mental stress, that can also be seen as ABH. Your Lordships will appreciate that if the case is brought for ABH on indictment, this procedural limitation of the magistrates’ court does not apply.
Therefore, it is arguable that injuries of the nature that require interfering with the customary time limit applied in summary proceedings may not demand a change. I think the protections which are contained in the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 should deal with the problems in the area referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove. If a domestic abuse protection order is issued, breach of it is a criminal offence, which can be triable either way. A summary conviction may lead to a sentence of 12 months’ imprisonment, while conviction on indictment may lead to a term of imprisonment not exceeding five years.
This is the important point: a protection order can be made where the court is satisfied on the balance of probabilities. The prosecution does not have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the victim has suffered. It is on the balance of probabilities for a protection order: simply that the person concerned has been abusive towards a person aged 16 or over to whom he or she is personally connected, where it is necessary and proportionate to protect that person from domestic abuse or the risk of domestic abuse. No time limits are set. I think we have moved on from common assault at common law in this field, and it may well be that this amendment is unnecessary.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I support both these amendments. My noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley is seeking to get rid of time limits relating to having sex with girls aged between 13 and 16 before 1 May 2004. As she said in her comprehensive introduction to the amendment, it is not known whether this anomaly, which a number of noble Lords have described, affects thousands of girls or fewer. It is simply not known. Nevertheless, from my understanding of the way she presented the case and the other comments on the amendment, it clearly seems to be a loophole which could be closed.
The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, explained why common assault is different in domestic abuse cases from general common assault. As I think I have said in other Committees, I fairly regularly sit in domestic abuse courts in magistrates’ courts, and I have to say that I disagree with the concluding comments of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that we seem to have moved on from common assault with domestic violence protection orders. Certainly, the way I view them, and I do those courts as well, they are very different because they are dealing with the civil standard. You can have cases where people have simply been abusive to each other and you are dealing with a very different type of case, in my experience, from common assault cases which you see in a more standard domestic abuse court.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, for her amendment.
For the victim of a crime to be told that the culprit cannot be prosecuted because a time limit has elapsed would doubtless be the cause of, at the very least, dissatisfaction and, at the very worst, anguish, and may very well lead to a loss of confidence in the criminal justice system. That is why, in respect of offences that are serious enough to be capable of being tried in the Crown Court, such time limits are virtually unknown in our system of criminal law in England and Wales. That differentiates England and Wales from many other jurisdictions, where time limits apply even to the most serious offences.
In England and Wales, the only exceptions are certain customs offences and offences of unlawful but consensual sexual intercourse, which I shall refer to as USI, with a girl aged 13 to 15 years committed before 1 May 2004, when the Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force. The statute which that Act replaced, the 1956 Act—I extend apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, for yet further legal history here—included a requirement that a prosecution for USI with a girl aged between 13 and 15 must be commenced within 12 months of the offence. That requirement was highly unusual even when it was enacted, and it was duly removed by the 2003 Act. I am sure that members of the Committee will echo the words of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, in relation to the 1956 Act.
That was an anomaly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and other noble Lords have described it in our discussion today. However, when it was removed in 2003 it was done so only prospectively, from the point when the Act came into force; in relation to offences that would fall to be charged under the 1956 Act, the time limit remained.
As your Lordships are aware and have heard again today, Parliament usually acts on the principle of non-retroactivity. Removing the time limit in circumstances where a prosecution was already time-barred, while it would not have amounted to substantive retroactivity in the sense of criminalising conduct that was not previously unlawful, would have exposed a person to criminal liability where there had been none before. Thus, Parliament’s aversion to retroactive legislation also applies to fundamental procedural preconditions for the bringing of charges against an individual. In relation to that—the point was canvassed by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti—I make reference to the case before the European Court of Human Rights called Antia and Khupenia v Georgia. Oh, for a Lord Russell of Georgia, that I might be corrected for any mispronunciation of the names of any plaintiffs in that matter.
For that reason, we do not consider it would be right to disregard the time limit in the increasingly rare cases in which it would apply. Since the changes in the 2003 Act were not made retrospective at that time, I submit that it would be difficult to justify now extending them to cases in which prosecution has been time-barred for at least the intervening 17 years—even allowing for the development in our understanding of sexual crime, as referred to by Members of this Committee who contributed to the debate.
I join the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, and others in acknowledging the skill and humanity with which the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, presented her amendment to the Committee. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for expressing a willingness to meet. I would be delighted to meet her at any time, but I think it would be more convenient for her, for the purposes purely of this amendment, to meet with my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, the Minister in charge. I have taken steps by electronic means during the discussion in the Committee to arrange that my noble friend is made aware of her desire to meet, and an appointment will be fixed.
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
Obviously I will go and read the Georgian case—I will call it “the Georgian case” so as not to repeat my earlier offence in relation to my noble friend—but, before any meeting, I will just say one thing. The Georgian case is now being cited as the reason why the Government will not move in my noble friend’s direction. I repeat my concern that we are currently in breach of the convention on human rights, not in relation to an Article 7 point but in relation to an Article 3 violation in relation to any woman, of whatever age, who now says “My statutory rapist will not be dealt with”. The Georgian case is up against cases such as X in the Netherlands and all the other cases where people were barred from getting redress in the criminal courts. That needs to be considered by the Minister as a senior law officer in Her Majesty’s Government.
If our positions were reversed and I had to face these two potential challenges in the European Court of Human Rights—a man who says “I had the opportunity to run Lord Pannick’s arguments about delay but none the less I was convicted of a historic statutory rape and I say that is a violation of my Article 7 rights” versus a woman who says “My rapist was not dealt with because of this time limitation”—I know which of those challenges I would rather defend as Her Majesty’s Government.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, I acknowledge the long-standing interest and expertise of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, in this field. Her words will have been noted by the Bill team listening in on this, and I assure her and the Committee that that matter will be examined.
My intention was to turn now to the terms of Amendment 292C. Again, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Newlove and the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, for raising this issue in the Committee and, in so doing, raising a matter that, as your Lordships have heard, the Government have acknowledged in the other place to be an important one. The amendment would have the same effect as one tabled during the passage of the Bill through the other place, both in Committee and on Report—that is, to alter the period of six months allowed for bringing
“summary proceedings for an offence of common assault or battery involving domestic abuse”,
as defined by the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, so that it ran not from the commission of the alleged offence but from its being reported to the police within two years. I sense that the Committee will be as one in agreeing that it is essential that victims have confidence in the justice system—confidence that it is a fair, impartial system that will support them when they come forward.
A number of noble Lords who have given their views on this amendment have spoken of the context of domestic violence, in which these matters take place. We know it may take many attempts before victims of domestic abuse finally leave the abusive relationship, and that this may cause delay in reporting crimes to the police. When the Bill was in the other place, we acknowledged the concerns about the possible effect of the six-month time limit for prosecuting summary-only offences—common assault in particular—in domestic abuse cases. Again, there is no disagreement between us about the importance of domestic abuse victims being able, practically, to seek justice. They should not be frustrated in so doing by the standard time limits set by Section 127 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980, should the evidence indicate that this time limit is too short in this context.
We were clear in the other place that this is an issue that must be looked into. The Home Office has been working to obtain data on cases that appear to have been brought to an end through the operation of the current time limit. I am also aware of the media coverage, to which the noble Lords, Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Hunt, referred. I note the concern expressed that, for whatever reason, it would appear that matters are being submitted to the press in advance of proper scrutiny by Parliament. Being aware of those concerns, I will relay them to the appropriate quarters.
I can confirm to the Committee today that we agree that there is a problem here and that domestic abuse-related crimes are disproportionately likely to be timed out. The Domestic Abuse Act demonstrated clearly this Government’s determination to address domestic abuse, and throughout its passage we showed our willingness to listen and take additional steps to address this abhorrent crime. It is important that we develop a proportionate response to this issue, so I ask for the patience of the Committee while we complete consideration of the matter and finalise our proposals. As the previous Minister for Safeguarding at the Home Office—now Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice—the Member of Parliament for Louth and Horncastle, Victoria Atkins, has stated, that might include an amendment. We will complete our consideration shortly, and I assure the Committee that we will return with a proposed course of action on Report.
I hope all Members of the House with an interest in this subject, including the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who spoke on it on Second Reading, will be reassured by what I have been able to say. Therefore, on the clear understanding that we agree there is a problem to resolve and that we will be able to return to the issue with our conclusions on Report, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment at this stage.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who have spoken in today’s debate and supported my Amendment 277 and Amendment 292C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, and others. I am heartened by the debate. I thank the Minister for his reply; however, I am disappointed that the retrospective argument is the main one being given for not moving ahead to change this legislation. But I am hopeful and grateful for the agreement to meet the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, to discuss this issue further before Report. I thank my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti for potentially giving me another reason—Article 3—for this legislative change. I will go and read the case cited around the article and discuss this directly with her to add the argument to my armour.
“Referendums on abolition of Police and Crime Commissioners
(1) A referendum is to be held for each police area listed in Schedule 1 to the Police Act 1996. (2) Each referendum is to be held on the same day as the next Police and Crime Commissioner election.(3) The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is—“Do you think that your local police force should be overseen by an individual Police and Crime Commissioner, or by a Police Authority made up of a committee of local councillors.”(4) The alternative answers to that question that are to appear on the ballot papers are—“My police force should be overseen by an individual Police and Crime Commissioner”, and“My police force should be overseen by a Police Authority made up of a committee of local councillors”(5) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are the persons who, on the date of the referendum, are allowed to vote as electors in the Police and Crime Commissioner election.(6) Where the referendum results in a majority for a police area being overseen by a Police Authority made up of a committee of local councillors, the Secretary of State must by regulations made by statutory instrument make provision for the purposes of implementing the result within one year of the passing of this Act.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to establish referendums to determine how each local police force should be governed.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
The two amendments I have tabled in this group are not on such a weighty issue as the sexual crimes we have been discussing. But they are on an issue of democracy, and I thank the Government on this occasion for making the Bill so gigantic that these two amendments come within scope. There are two distinct issues in my amendments. Amendment 278 focuses on the abolition of police and crime commissioners, and Amendment 279 is about abolishing the £5,000 deposit needed to stand as a candidate in police and crime commissioner elections.
Under the referendum idea, each police area would have its own referendum held on the same day as the next police and crime commissioner election. The question would be whether to keep police and crime commissioners or return to police authorities made up of a committee of local councillors. Importantly, for a referendum, my amendment also includes provision that the Secretary of State must then implement the result by statutory instrument, because this is intended to be a binding referendum, not an advisory one with no legal consequence.
The Green Party does not believe that police and crime commissioners have been a success. They have replaced a democratic, committee-based system with a directly elected position subject to very little scrutiny. Most normal people do not pay much attention to politics, and that is true across the board, but when you get as far down the pecking order as police and crime commissioners, even many political boffins probably could not name their local PCC. It was an unnecessary political experiment, and local people should be given the option to return to the old system of committee governance.
We have one former Met commissioner here, and he might be able to agree with me that the Metropolitan Police Authority and the assembly committee charged with holding the police to account worked extremely well. I am not suggesting something that has not been proved to work in the past.
Amendment 279 is about deposits and is limited to PCC elections due to the scope of the Bill, but election deposits should be abolished completely for all elections. Supposedly, they exist to deter joke candidates, allowing only serious candidates to stand for election, but it is obvious that this does not work. There are plenty of joke candidates who are not deterred by the deposit. One only has to think back to the Prime Minister’s election battle against Lord Buckethead, Count Binface, and a person dressed as Elmo. All three lost their deposits and seemed thoroughly to enjoy doing so. The 2019 general election saw 1,273 parliamentary candidates each lose their £500 deposit, totalling £636,500. The figure included 465 Green Party candidates, 136 Liberal Democrats, 165 Brexit Party candidates and 190 independent candidates.
Therefore, joke candidates were not deterred, and neither were very committed candidates who wished to stand for election to help improve their local area. However, the outcome was that the established parties—the Conservative Party and the Labour Party—kept most of their deposits, with anything that they did lose a drop in the ocean of their overall party budgets, while the smaller parties and independent candidates suffered a huge financial disadvantage. Election deposits are nothing more than an election tax on people who want to participate in the democratic process, and they should be abolished. I beg to move.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD) [V]
My Lords, I have added my name to these amendments, which are indeed timely. Back in May 2011, during the passage of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, I tabled an amendment which effectively scuppered the then Government’s wish to bring in police and crime commissioners. It was a pyrrhic victory, of course, because when the Bill went back to the other place, almost everything that the Government wanted was reinstated. They got their police and crime commissioners. However, it was very much a cross-party effort to bring forward hundreds of amendments, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, will recall.
Looking back on those amendments, it is quite clear that we were right in our condemnation of moving from police authorities, which had 17 or 19 members, to a stand-alone police and crime commissioner. I declare my interest as a former chair of a police authority and as a vice-chair of the former Association of Police Authorities. Much of what we warned has come to pass. Commissioners are political creatures. Hardly any have been independent, which was the wish of the former Prime Minister, David Cameron. We said that this would happen, and it did. We also said that there would be some good commissioners, which there have been, and others varying from not so good to downright terrible.
This has been borne out in my own area of North Yorkshire. Allegations of bullying brought against our first PCC, among other strange decisions that she made, lost her the support of her political allies, so they got rid of her. We had another expensive by-election, which was of course won by the Conservative candidate. Within a very short time, public opinion hounded him out of office because he made incredibly damaging and insensitive remarks following the murder of Sarah Everard. We are shortly to find out who will succeed him, as we have yet another election, the third in 10 years. Up and down the country, PCCs have been found wanting, which I simply do not recall happening in the days of the old police authorities, when checks and balances were shared by having local councillors—elected representatives from different parties—magistrates and lay people to help in the governance of their local police force.
Most Members of your Lordships’ House recognise the dangers inherent in politicising the police. Amendment 278, which proposes a referendum on the abolition of PCCs, or having local councillors to hold the police to account, as was the case for many years before the PRSR Bill came into being, will allow for the governance of policing to be brought back into greater local accountability, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, has said. Amendment 279 would remove the need for an election deposit of £5,000 for PCCs, thus enabling a wider selection of people to apply to become commissioners. Amendment 292D is also timely, as we have at present at least one PCC who has been convicted of a crime.
This experiment has not been the success that it was promised to be. As we have heard, most people still have no idea who their police and crime commissioner is, or what the cost is of running a dedicated office. Certainly, I managed with an office of three personnel. Different PCCs run many more than this, although I am happy that the former Association of Police Authorities has come through the changes with relative ease and just a slight change of name. The work that it did for us was phenomenal and I am sure that its successor organisation is equally excellent, but it has its work cut out with some of its members. This is the first time in 10 years that we have had the opportunity to return to a better system of police governance. I hope that we will take it.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 292D is in my name. I hope that noble Lords will indulge me if I respond with a few remarks on Amendments 278 and 279. I will do it all in one go and be as brief as I can. I do not intend to take up very much of the Committee’s time with these issues.
Amendment 292D perhaps should not be part of this group but it is, so I will move ahead with it. It is because of the scope of this Bill that I have been able to table this amendment. I will start with two case histories. The first is about a 19 year-old, who, a long time ago, during the Italia 90 World Cup—which noble Lords in the Committee will remember—was in a public house with a friend, watching the football. An incident in which the friend was involved meant that the police were called. The first individual tried to stop his friend from making an even greater idiot of himself by assaulting the police and, for his pains, he was charged, no doubt properly, with obstructing the police. He was not charged with assault, but he was fined £20. Since then, he has never been in trouble again. He has been a councillor for many years and, ironically, he chaired the community services team—that part of the council which works closely with the police to reduce crime. He also happens to be the regional secretary of a very important organisation covering the whole of the Midlands and, to add irony upon irony, he is just celebrating his 20th year as a magistrate. Public-spirited, he applied to be a candidate for the position of police and crime commissioner in his area some years ago, only to be told that his conviction banned him from doing so.
Lord Bach (Lab)
I am sorry that it has taken so long. I have waited a long time for this opportunity in the Committee and I am sorry if I have abused it.
A good police and crime commissioner should be a combination of a diplomat and an innovator, with a sense of responsibility while doing the job. I am glad to say that the vast majority of them, if not all, see the position in that light. They deserve some support and not always denigration.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I have added my name to these two amendments and I hope the Minister will agree to take them away. I did so, first, to support my noble friend Lord Bach, and, secondly, not so much to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on her actual amendment but to try to develop a debate on the role of police and crime commissioners. As my noble friend has said, unfortunately we have had little opportunity to do so since the Bill in 2011 and the Act that was subsequently passed came in.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, said, I led for the Opposition at that time. We were very glad to work with her and opposed the concept. It was defeated in the Lords and the Bill went back to the Commons without a reference to police commissioners, which was subsequently put back in. The fear at the time was always that it would risk undermining tolerant policing in this country by bringing political partisanship too close to police operational matters. I suggest that there is still that fear around the way in which PCCs have operated. There have of course been notable successes—I mention my noble friend Lord Bach, Dame Vera Baird and David Jamieson in the West Midlands as examples—but there have been failures too. A number of police and crime commissioners have had to resign prematurely under what one might call somewhat unfortunate circumstances.
During the passage of this Bill we have debated policing quite extensively, particularly in relation to lamentable performances on domestic violence. My noble friend Lord Bach, whom I rarely disagree with, thinks that nine years is too short a period on which to make a judgment. However, I think I am entitled to point out that on the cultural issues which are very much at the heart of police failures in relation to domestic violence, I cannot see much evidence that this new leadership has been able to tackle those effectively.
A two-part review of PCCs is going on at the moment. The first part reported in October last year and there is a second review. It is interesting that this review is not getting anywhere near the heart of the issues around PCCs. It is also interesting that, in the first review, a lot of reference was made to the dismissal process for chief constables, which reflects the fact that there has been a fallout in many areas between the PCC seeking to exert his or her power and the chief constable. There has been instability. Because of this, there is a shortage of candidates for chief constable roles—not surprisingly.
Of course, the tension between chief constables and police and crime commissioners was built into the legislation. PCCs were there to provide political leadership for policing in their area, but they were not responsible for leading their force. Police chiefs retained operational independence, making independent decisions supposedly free from political interference on operational matters. Of course, there is no definitive list of operational matters, nor an expectation that operational decisions should be free from political scrutiny altogether. Inevitably, a grey area was built in between policing matters that PCCs can influence and those that are at the operational discretion of chief constables.
Going back to our debate on the Bill, where policing culture and failures in domestic abuse have been so evident, it is interesting that Ministers and noble Lords who have debated this extensively have laid responsibility clearly at the hands of chief constables. PCCs have hardly had a mention. Why not? If PCCs cannot get a handle on crucial issues such as this, what on earth is the point of them in the first place?
Obviously, the model that the Government started with was a US model. The logic, when they first brought in the Bill, was for PCCs to be given much more power than they have been given because of their democratic accountability. However, the Government backed off, partly through fears of politicisation, but also because of the usual Whitehall paranoia about letting go. One of the stated aims of PCCs was for police forces to stop looking up to Whitehall and be more accountable locally. If anything, in the last 10 years, we have seen more and more interventions by Home Secretaries into the work of chief constables and pronouncements on strategic policing requirements. Home Secretary interventions have become the order of the day. The end result is utter confusion as to where accountability lies, ambiguities and tensions between the role of the PCC and the chief constable and a sense that policing lacks effective direction.
I look forward with interest to part two of the review that the Government are undertaking but, when one looks at the areas that they are inquiring into, it seems that none of them goes to the heart of the issue of what PCCs are really for and whether they are going to be given the powers to carry that out. That is a matter of regret.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)
My Lords, I briefly but strongly support Amendment 292D, but not the other two—I say that without needing much elaboration. I have two main reasons for supporting Amendment 292D. First, it is promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for whom I always have the greatest regard. He now has the expertise and experience of this job, so his judgment on it, as he knows what he is talking about, is surely worth listening to. We should take advantage of the expertise that he now has in this field and his appreciation of the crunch issues that are involved.
The second main reason is this: I am generally against these absolutist or purist positions such as those adopted uniquely—it appears—in this legislation. Once you have sinned, you are out for life. It is ridiculous. Some small measure of discretion or flexibility is generally an advantage. Of course, it is unlikely to happen that often, but we have surely heard two wholly compelling instances where it is a flagrant injustice to say to these people, now in maturity, having served the public, that because of one slight error in their youth and having strayed once they are never eligible again. This is a point of genuine principle: we ought not to pass this opportunity of putting it right.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Bach, in his amendment. He could have added police officers to his list of occupations that would not have been barred. He chose not to, but it seems rather odd that only police and crime commissioners can be excluded entirely by a previous conviction.
I do not agree with the amendments proposed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Harris, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I do not know whether I have unique experience, but certainly I have experienced both police authorities and PCCs as a chief constable and then as a commissioner. Having been the person held to account, I am probably the person to whom you would least listen—I may have the most prejudice. I find both roles to be about equally effective and, frankly, equally ineffective.
Police authorities had the great benefit that they were a broadly based group of people, rather than one person. They were not directly elected, but they tended to create an awful lot of committees. The consequence of creating committees is that things take an awfully long time: that may not be understood here, but people take a lot of time to make decisions. That was my experience. Police and crime commissioners, where you could get a good relationship, tended to make quicker decisions, but, frankly, in somewhere like London, they struggled to be representative of the nearly 9 million people or to hold all the views—particularly of minorities —through one person. That was a challenge, but it could be overcome at times. Certainly in London, which was my latest experience, there has been a plethora of accountability regimes, whether it be a police and crime commissioner selected by the mayor, the Home Secretary, 32 local authorities, the police and crime scrutiny committee and a number of committees of Parliament. I am not sure that that made it better accountability; it just made more of it.
We ought to think carefully about how we govern the police. I am not sure that this is the best way to address that problem. It could be improved, but I am not sure that this is the best way. There are three reasons for this. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is the fact that you are only getting one applicant for the role of chief constable good evidence that this is because of PCCs? It may be, but I think that it is more to do with the fact that the officers who are applying believe that the solutions have already been determined. They believe that the police and crime commissioners, usually with the sitting deputy, are going to select that person, whereas in the past, with police authorities, at least there was a broad spectrum of people and it was far harder to arrange a conspiracy. I think that it is good evidence, but perhaps for the wrong reason. It is a problem that needs to be addressed and it is not helping the police leadership to develop in the future.
My objections to the amendment are around logistics. If we end up having a referendum at every PCC election, the danger is that we will end up around the country with a mixed tapestry of governance. In some places it would be PCCs and in some places it would be police authorities. We might even flip them at the succeeding election, although I guess that you would not get one if you had a police authority—there would not be another opportunity to have a referendum and then reselect a PCC.
In our current police tapestry, we have 46 forces, 43 of which have local accountability. This has to happen nationally, whether it be the police authorities or PCCs; we need to make national arrangements to govern these things. We already have a complicated arrangement: with 46 governance sets—with different governance sets as well—that is a tapestry too far.
If these things are to be changed, we should look at it properly, and in the round. We should see what has worked and what has not to make improvements. What we should not do is decide it locally. This is a role for government; the governance of the police should be set centrally. There may be local affiliations, but the Government have responsibility to set the governance of the police. As I have said before, I would have far fewer police forces, which might make this a little easier. Whether one agrees with that or not, I would not have a referendum every time a PCC is elected.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
My Lords, I also rise to speak particularly about Amendment 292D. I support the noble Lord, Lord Bach, with all his experience of being an excellent police and crime commissioner.
There are many other examples. The noble Lord gave two. I shall just give one. A 59 year-old senior civil servant who worked for the Ministry of Justice in a responsible position connected with the criminal justice system, wished to retire and stand to be a police and crime commissioner. He was disqualified because, at the age of 13, he had been fined £5 for each of two minor juvenile offences. It is completely disproportionate and absurd that such people should be disqualified.
I seek to compare those disqualification rules with the rules applying to Members of another place. The last figures I saw produced by IPSA, the standards authority for Members of the other place, revealed that, in recent years, 43% of the Members of the other place had convictions of one kind or another. Maybe that tells you a lot about the other place. Nevertheless, this distinction makes its own point.
In passing on to the other issues, I agree very much with my noble friend Lord Hogan-Howe. Fundamental to this problem is the fact that we have 43 territorial police forces. This number ought to be at least quartered. If so, the structure—including police and crime commissioners—would be much more coherent. There would be far greater consistency and police forces which currently struggle to deal with very complex inquiries would be able to deal with them because they would have the critical mass of staff.
I turn next to police authorities. I hesitate to disagree with those noble Lords who tabled the first amendment in this group because I respect them all. Part of my experience as a Queen’s Counsel has been to advise police authorities when they have got into difficulties. I recall one case from the north of England in which the police authority concerned was institutionally corrupt and in the pockets of a small group of senior police officers. It had got itself into a hopeless mess and at least one criminal prosecution ensued. To describe it as an example of democratic effectiveness was an insult to both democracy and effectiveness.
I accept, of course, that some police commissioners are better than others. So are some Cabinet Ministers. So are some head teachers. So are some doctors. So are some Members of Parliament. This is inevitable. Some of the commissioners are very good, such as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and Dame Vera Baird, who was referred to earlier. Where police and crime commissioners are effective, they are very effective indeed.
Just think about it territorially. If one of these referendums took place and there was a police and crime commissioner in Cheshire but not in Lancashire, or one in north Wales but not in Dyfed-Powys, people in the areas that did not have a police and crime commissioner would be unlikely to say, “Oh, how wonderful; this is going to be run by our local council.” In the modern world, they will say, “Our democratic rights have been diluted.”
Other noble Lords remember, as I do, when the Welsh Assembly was created. In many parts of Wales, people said, “Nobody will know who their Assembly Members are. It’s all a waste of time. It will be completely ineffective.” It is true that, for a time, people tended not to know who their Welsh Assembly Members were. Today, however, if you look at the evolution of the Welsh Government during the last 20 years or so, it has become remarkably effective. It has brought people much closer to government.
I believe that police and crime commissioners are still evolving. They have a valuable role to play, particularly, as I said earlier, if the Government have the courage to reform the territorial policing services in this country.
As to the deposits, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. The £5,000 deposit is not reasonable. I would not oppose a much lower deposit of the kind that has to be put down by somebody standing to be elected as a Member of Parliament. The election process is expensive. Some kind of gatekeeping requirement of this kind is helpful.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, when he started talking about amalgamating police forces again and the Welsh Assembly, I wondered whether this was turning into a filibuster. However, we move on.
The issue raised by Amendment 292D that we all agree on is that it is ridiculous that somebody convicted of a very minor offence at a very young age should be disqualified. The other side of the coin is that there is no process for the recall of a police and crime commissioner who commits an offence in office or is guilty of misconduct. Because they are democratically elected, the only way to get rid of them is by another election. Compare this to MPs, for whom there is now a process by which a by-election can be triggered. I agree with Amendment 292D, but there is another side to the same coin which also needs to be addressed.
We on these Benches have always been opposed to police and crime commissioners, notwithstanding, as everybody has said, that there are some outstanding ones, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was. Not just because he used to be my boss—this is the House of Peers now—I agree with almost everything the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe has said.
Lord Bach (Lab)
Would the noble Lord forgive me for a moment? I know his view has always been consistent on this, but the truth of the matter is that the Bill got through only because of the support of both parties in the coalition; one of those parties was the Liberal Democrats. It is very easy to say now that you are not in favour of it as a party, but you clearly were in favour of it because you passed it into legislation. I am sorry if it is a crude point, but it happens to be true.
Lord Paddick (LD)
Yes, and, as the noble Lord will very well know, in a coalition there have to be compromises on both sides. You cannot get through the things you think are absolutely important unless you give way on others. However, the policy of this party now is to oppose police and crime commissioners. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to clarify the position of the party on that.
It is very difficult for one person to represent both rural and urban areas in policing, or perhaps an area where there is a large African or Caribbean community and another where there is a large south Asian or Chinese community, or even an LGBT community. These could and do exist within the same police area—as in London, for example. Therefore, with one police and crime commissioner for that whole area, it is difficult for that one person to represent all those communities. It is important to be represented when it comes to accountability around policing, particularly for minority communities, where trust and confidence in the police are not as strong as they are with others.
As others have said, the majority of police and crime commissioners are party political. Therefore, there is a danger that a small “p” political difference between a police and crime commissioner and a chief constable, or even a commissioner—without pointing at any particular examples of that—could result in a good chief constable or commissioner having to resign over that small “p” political difference, or even a personality difference with the police and crime commissioner
As the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, has said, we are in a position where, because it is one person hiring and firing the chief constable, we are not getting a range of candidates applying for the chief constable post. The assumption is that the incumbent deputy will have a good relationship with that police and crime commissioner and have a natural advantage over any outside candidate, and therefore it is not worth applying. For all these reasons, we feel that having a range of people holding the police to account—particularly if they are democratically elected councillors —as opposed to one person, would be preferable. But I agree with other noble Lords that the suggested way to replace the system is probably not through a series of referenda that could result in different mechanisms in different parts of the country.
As far as the abolition of deposits in elections is concerned, that is perhaps slightly wider than this Bill should be considering. Of course, as Liberal Democrats, we would have to declare an interest as far as that is concerned. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, about potentially reducing the size of the deposit, rather than getting rid of it completely.
Were police authorities better? In some places, I think they were. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, has said, the Metropolitan Police Authority was certainly very effective. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, who experienced both, said there was not much to choose between the two on accountability.
For the reasons that I have explained, we agree that there should certainly be an examination of how effective police and crime commissioners are.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I agree with the comments of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and other noble Lords, that we have had mixed experiences of police and crime commissioners—some have been very good, and some not so good. I will not go further than that, though, in relation to Amendment 278.
I wish to talk in particular about the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lord Bach and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. They have drawn attention to the consequences we have witnessed as result of potential candidates for police and crime commissioner being debarred if they have been convicted of any offence, however many years ago, for which they could have received a custodial sentence, irrespective of whether they did actually receive such a sentence. I do not wish to pursue any individual cases but rather the general point, as others have done, of whether there should be another look at the reasons, in respect of previous convictions, for which a potential candidate for the office of police and crime commissioner can be disqualified.
When the issue has been raised previously, the Government have argued that it should not be reviewed because there was cross-party support for this requirement to be included in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. If that argument was followed through to its logical conclusion, there could never be any change to any legislation that originally had cross-party support, which is a bit of a nonsense.
The other argument advanced was that people must have complete confidence in the probity and integrity of whoever it is they elect as a police and crime commissioner because of their responsibilities and powers in relation to their police force, including the chief constable. Clearly, that is true, but whether an offence committed decades ago that could have resulted in a custodial sentence but did not—because it was not considered of a sufficiently serious nature to justify such a sentence—should automatically still be regarded as calling into question the probity and integrity of a potential candidate for police and crime commissioner, and thus disqualify them from holding such an office, is questionable, to say the least. It is certainly questionable when one looks at other positions that have powers and responsibilities in relation to the police and the criminal justice system but have no such similar restrictions on being able to stand for office or be appointed to an office.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for giving us this opportunity to discuss police and crime commissioners and matters relating to their election. I also thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate.
PCCs, as directly elected individuals responsible for the totality of policing in their area, are a far more transparent and visible model of police governance than the predecessor model of police authorities. As the Home Affairs Select Committee found in its 2016 report, the introduction of PCCs has had a beneficial effect on public accountability and the clarity of leadership in policing. It concluded that the PCC model is here to stay.
The Government are committed to strengthening and expanding the role of PCCs—indeed, it was a manifesto commitment—and, earlier this year, the Home Secretary announced the recommendations from part 1 of a review into the role of PCCs to do just that. That announcement was repeated in your Lordships’ House by my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh on the same day, 16 March. These recommendations will further strengthen the transparency and accountability of PCCs, as well as make it easier for the public to make an informed decision at the ballot box about the record of their PCC. Part 2 is currently under way, and the Government will report on those recommendations in due course. I note in response to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, that this review will also assess the benefits and demerits of a trigger mechanism for the recall of PCCs; it is being debated.
Amendment 278 would provide for force-wide referendums to abolish PCCs. As I have said, PCCs are here to stay. The PCC model provides a clearer form of democratic accountability for police forces. The Government see no benefit in returning to a system of invisible and unaccountable police authorities. Under the old system, the public had no direct powers to elect a police authority chair or its members. Moreover, this amendment would provide for costly local referendums, siphoning funding away from front-line policing, and potentially leading—as many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, have noted—to a confused patchwork of police governance arrangements across the country. Therefore, the effect of the amendment could well be to damage public confidence in police governance at a time when it is crucial that we do everything in our power to strengthen it.
While Amendment 278 seeks to abolish PCCs, Amendment 279 seeks to make it easier for anyone to stand as a candidate for election by removing the £5,000 election deposit for candidates. I shall stick to PCCs and not expand to cover other elections, for obvious reasons.
The requirement for candidates to pay a £5,000 deposit was introduced to ensure that a high calibre of candidates put themselves forward for the role of PCC. These should be people committed to being the voice of the public and to holding their police force to account. Candidates who poll more than 5% of the total number of valid first preference votes cast in that police area will have their deposit returned, ensuring that serious candidates are not out of pocket.
I am sure that noble Lords would agree that we must protect our electoral system from abuse. The £5,000 deposit is designed to ensure that individuals who have no intention of seriously contesting the seat do not use the election process as an opportunity for free publicity.
Amendment 292D, put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, concerns the disqualification criteria for PCCs, and I fear that my ice thins a little here. I understand the noble Lord’s motivation and respect his powerful and perfectly valid examples, but the Government do not agree that we should lower the bar on the standard we expect of elected PCCs. As a PCC previously himself, I am sure the noble Lord will recognise the need for the highest levels of integrity, given the nature of the role.
Under the current disqualification criteria, a person is unable to stand for or hold the office of PCC if they have previously been convicted of an imprisonable offence. There is no bar on people standing for election who may have a previous conviction for a low-level offence punishable by a fine only. Neither is a caution, whether for an imprisonable offence or otherwise, a bar to election. These rules governing who can stand as a PCC are, as the noble Lord noted, the strictest of all rules for elected roles in England and Wales and, we believe, are necessary to ensure the highest levels of integrity on the part of the person holding office and to protect the public’s trust in policing.
This high standard was set with cross-party agreement and with the support of senior police officers There is a serious risk of damage to public confidence and the integrity of the model if PCCs are able to take office with a history of serious criminal offence. I would also suggest that were a PCC to hold office with a previous conviction for an imprisonable offence, both the PCC and the chief constable might find it untenable to maintain a professional and respectful relationship, given the role the PCC plays in holding the chief constable to account. Having said all that, I have heard everything that has been said around the Chamber this evening, across party, and I will make sure that those arguments are reflected back to the Home Office.
In conclusion, this Government are firmly of the view that, far from seeking to abolish PCCs or weaken their standing, we should further strengthen their role. On that basis, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
Is the Minister advising me to withdraw my amendment or asking me to withdraw it?
I made my opening remarks quite short, because I did not think that the amendment would be very contentious. I thought that people would not like it, but I had no idea that it would generate so much interest. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for her personal recollections of disastrous commissioners. I, too, have some personal recollections of disastrous commissioners, starting with Boris Johnson, who as Mayor of London was completely useless and had to pull in people to do it for him, some of whom did not know what they were doing either.
I more or less thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for his partial support. I was interested in the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, because he has five years’ experience as a PCC. I have 16 years’ experience on police committees and of PCCs, so the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, should perhaps have accepted that I might have a valid point of view on PCCs as well.
I ask all noble Lords: can you actually name your PCC? There is a shake of the head beside me. If you live in London, it is easy: it is Sadiq Khan. If you live anywhere else, it is much harder. Could the Minister name his PCC? He says yes.
I thank noble Lords very much for this debate. I find this issue endlessly interesting. I will think about the offer made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. He said, for example, that there are better ways of getting rid of police commissioners. I would be happy to put forward an amendment with a quicker way to do that rather than having a referendum; I am not wedded to referendums. Having said all that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, we will do one more group before the dinner break. I remind noble Lords that we have to get through 14 groups today. That means that we have nine more. Can we try to be a little briefer so that we can get on? We have only one more day on this Bill, so we need to get as far as possible tonight.
Amendment 280
Baroness Coussins
“Spoken word interpreters: minimum standards
Spoken word interpreters appointed to a court or tribunal must—(a) be registered on the National Register of Public Service Interpreters (“NRPSI”),(b) possess a Level 6 Diploma in Public Service Interpreting, or comply with NRPSI Rare Language Status protocols, and(c) have completed the requisite number of hours’ experience of court interpreting commensurate with the category of case complexity, as agreed by the Secretary of State in conjunction with relevant professional bodies.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would establish minimum standards for qualifications and experience for interpreters in courts and tribunals, along the lines of the Police Approved Interpreters Scheme.
Baroness Coussins (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds, the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and my noble friend Lord Pannick for adding their names to my amendment. I am sorry that my noble friend has had to leave for another commitment, but he wanted me to confirm that he planned to speak in support of this amendment. I declare my interests as a co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Modern Languages and the vice-president of the Chartered Institute of Linguists.
The purpose of this amendment is to establish in law
“minimum standards for qualifications and experience”
of those appointed to act as interpreters in Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service. For the avoidance of doubt, let me clarify that, for the purposes of this amendment, I am referring only to spoken word interpreters, not sign language interpreters.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, for meeting me earlier in the year to discuss this and related issues. I very much hope that the Minister replying tonight will be able to facilitate another meeting between me, other interested parties and the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, between now and Report to look at my proposals more precisely. Obviously, my best-case scenario is the Government accepting my amendment or coming back on Report with a better-worded version to achieve the same, or a closely similar, end.
I will not repeat the detailed case that I set out at Second Reading. I will simply summarise the way in which the appointment of court interpreters as it is currently organised, using the Ministry of Justice’s register and delivered via outsourced private companies, is inadequate—often seriously so, leading at best to mistakes and, at worst, to miscarriages of justice. It is an easy way for fake interpreters to present themselves. Too often, hearings need to be abandoned and expensively rescheduled, sometimes with defendants on remand for longer—all at public expense.
My objective is to strengthen the MoJ register for interpreters, thereby improving the quality and administration of justice. I will explain each of the three elements of my proposed minimum standards in a little more detail, starting with the second, which relates to the qualifications that a court interpreter should have. I am sure all noble Lords would agree that, if they were having heart surgery or even having their tonsils out, they would expect the surgeon to have more than a GCSE in biology. If they were passengers in an aeroplane, they would not expect the pilot just to have a geography degree and know roughly which way was south. They would not expect their car to be serviced by a mechanic whose only proven competence was in the use of a tin opener. Yet you can get on to the MoJ’s register of approved interpreters simply by having a GCSE pass or a low-level two-week foundation course, or just by being bilingual, even if you have never set foot in a court before.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
Before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask a question? Her amendment refers to every court or tribunal. Knowing how the courts are operating, for example, in family law, the urgent need for an interpreter happens every single day when urgent decisions have to be made about children. How long would it take to find an interpreter in such a case if her provisions, which I see as having great strength in criminal trials, were in force?
Baroness Coussins (CB)
I can answer that only by saying I would have to consult the national register and chartered institute to find out how quickly they respond now and how that compares to the MoJ system. I agree it is an important element. Part of the problem will be the supply chain, but I think these issues can be overcome. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, I endorse every word of what the noble Baroness just said. In a previous incarnation—that is probably the wrong phrase to use; I am mixing my religions—I was a professional linguist in Russian, German and French, working in government service. One of the things you learn as a professional linguist is that language goes deep. This is not simply a matter of picking someone off the street who can order a pint in a Spanish bar; you are dealing with the stuff of people’s lives. Surely accuracy is vital, for the sake of not only clarity of understanding but justice itself.
I could give many examples of how this works. There is the difference between translation and interpreting. Interpreting goes deep, because you have to understand that some things cannot be translated. That is how language works.
I will not trespass on eternity here, but will simply say that justice, whatever the logistical problems highlighted a moment ago, demands that people have clarity of understanding and expression in courts of law. I endorse every word that was said in the last speech.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
I too support this amendment. I was really surprised that there is not already a standard and that this is not consistent across the criminal justice system. When the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, explained that the Metropolitan Police had already taken the lead on this, I was hoping that that was during my time, but it was not. However, I think this is a good idea. This is about not only high and consistent standards but experience—experience within the criminal justice system will be relevant at various times—and integrity. These people will have access to private and confidential information. For all those reasons, it is important that there is a consistent, high standard.
Each part of the system, whether the police, prosecutors, defence, courts, judge or jury, requires this to happen consistently. It seems amazing that at the moment they are not able to rely on the same interpretation or translation of the same material. That seems odd. At least in the case of the police, you can go back and check some of the original evidence. Body-worn video, CCTV or audio recordings of the interview might be available, so someone can go back and check. However, as far as I am aware, that is not the case in court. There is a written record, but that in itself is open to interpretation and is not always entirely accurate.
There are things that feed into the criminal justice system which are also important and rely on the contribution of the individual and what they say, for example psychiatric assessments. These can be vital in determining whether someone is guilty or so psychiatrically ill that they should not be held guilty for their actions and in determining what actions will follow a sentence.
This is not a minority issue, particularly in London. The last time I saw the figures, around 27% of the 250,000 arrests carried out by the Metropolitan Police every year are of foreign nationals. There is then at least a risk that they are speaking a second language, not their first, which imposes certain challenges on the whole system. It is vital that they, as well as witnesses and all the other people who play a vital role in the criminal justice system, are able to be heard.
Finally, it seems to me that this is particularly pertinent in an adversarial system which relies an awful lot on cross-examination. Are mistakes made in court? Is consistency observed between the original account and those given by various witnesses? Language is very important. We would all say so, but I would say it is even more important in an adversarial system, which sometimes seeks to cause inconsistency in the account that is given. This creates an even bigger burden for the system to make sure that the account of the language is of the highest standard available. It is important that the Government create such a system, so I support this amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, when I was a young solicitor in north Wales, I recall a knock on the door at about 6 o’clock in the evening. There was an agitated man of Polish extraction on the doorstep saying, “Please come quickly. My friend is dying in hospital and he wants to make a will.” I went to the hospital, which was just around the corner, and discovered that the patient spoke only Polish. I said to the first man, “What are we going to do?” He said, “We don’t need an interpreter. I’ll do it. He wants to leave everything to me.”
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
I wholeheartedly endorse my noble friend’s amendment, having seen on a couple of occasions interpreters who I seriously thought could barely speak English. Imagine the confusion when the interpreter translated “car” as “cow”. The judge became pretty exasperated at this point. However, there is one obstacle to this that I see. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, mentioned one obstacle, but the other might be that it is very difficult at the moment for courts to find interpreters at all. I seriously worry that there is going to be a shortage of interpreters, although I still feel that we should get the standard up, whatever happens. Perhaps we need to have courses for interpreters with proper qualifications making it a career in which people who could become interpreters could find some sort of vocation.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment for all the reasons put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, in opening. She has campaigned for this change for a long time and has a great deal of knowledge and experience on the subject. We have also heard from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds, the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, and my noble friend Lord Thomas, who still supports this reform despite the success of his experience with the Polish testator. I will therefore add little.
There is an answer to the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, about the availability of interpreters and the need for speed in getting them to court, and by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, about there being enough registered interpreters. I accept, as I expect would the noble Baroness, that there would be a need to transition the introduction of these proposals and to take steps to ensure that there were enough registered interpreters. We also have to consider the availability of interpretation in the very unusual languages that she mentioned.
This amendment is important. The duty of an interpreter in courts and tribunals is limited and specific. It is a duty to act as a conduit and only as a conduit; accurately to convey the meaning of the court’s proceedings to the non-English speaker; then, if and when that non-English speaker gives evidence, to convey the court’s and counsel’s questions to that non-English speaker; and lastly, and most importantly, to convey the non-English-speaking witness’s evidence to the court. That all demands accuracy, and to provide that accuracy requires a great deal of skill.
However, it is a duty to act as a conduit only, the aim being to overcome the language barrier. It is decidedly not to render assistance of a more general kind to the non-English-speaking participant in legal proceedings, still less to provide some kind of informal independent advice service. Yet, in spite of those very clear principles, many of us who have practised in courts and tribunals have seen how interpreters, often motivated by the best of intentions, can fail in their task. The inadequacies have been extensively and well highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins.
There are two main reasons for such a failure. The first is that some set out to act as interpreters when they lack the necessary linguistic skills and they simply get the translation wrong. Sometimes the inaccuracy is noticed by someone in court who understands and speaks the language concerned who can then ensure that the witness’s meaning is further explored, but on other occasions it is not, and when it is not then injustices occur.
The second problem is that some interpreters overreach themselves. Again, often they are not motivated by an improper wish to intervene in the proceedings with ideas of their own, yet they do precisely that. They discuss evidence with the witness and act as assistants and advisers as well as interpreters. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, pointed out that on some occasions the integrity of the witness and of the proceedings is called into question. That is wrong, and it subverts the proceedings of the court or tribunal concerned. The way in which we must deal with these issues is quite simply by training and minimum standards, and that is exactly what the amendment seeks to achieve.
I add this final point: I hope that, in order to maintain registration, it would be necessary to have adequate programmes of continuing education. Interpretation is a difficult skill that requires specialist and professional training and needs constant maintaining. I hope the Government will bring a positive response to this amendment.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate and I thank the noble Baroness for moving her amendment; in general terms we support it. The question marks would be about the standards, which she dealt with very fully, whether emergencies could be covered, and the potential costs. As the noble Lord, Lord Marks, said, there needs to be a transition to harmonising and raising standards in general.
I want to pick up a couple of points made by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe expressed surprise that there was not already a common standard and I was surprised as well. He went on to talk about there being written records in courts, but that is not the case in magistrates’ courts; they are not a court of record. As a sitting magistrate, I regularly have interpreters in court. In the 14 years I have been a magistrate I can think of three or four occasions when the magistrate colleagues I have been sitting with have told me that the interpretation was wrong. They knew the language and were able to inform us, and we were able to deal with the situation. But, as other noble Lords have pointed out, that will not always be the case. It is not that unusual for interpretations to be wrong.
I want to make a more serious point, which the noble Lord, Lord Marks, also made, about interpreters overreaching themselves. As I mentioned in an earlier group, I regularly sit in the domestic abuse court and I have done various bits of training on that. One of the points the training makes is that you have to be careful with interpreters and translators when dealing with domestic abuse cases in minority languages. It has been recorded that the interpreters overreach themselves and what the witness or the victim is saying in court will get back to that minority group. It is something that the court needs to be very aware of and handle sensitively to prevent that happening—and it does happen. Nevertheless, in general terms, we support this amendment.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 280 would restrict the Ministry of Justice to appoint in our courts and tribunals only interpreters who are registered on the national register of public service interpreting—the NRPSI—and possess a level 6 diploma in public service interpreting, or who comply with the NRPSI’s rare language status protocols.
The Ministry of Justice commissions the services of interpreters for our courts and tribunals in England and Wales through its contracted service providers, thebigword and Clarion Interpreting. These interpreters are sourced from the Ministry of Justice’s register, which is audited by an independent language service provider, the Language Shop. All interpreters are required to complete a justice system-specific training course before they are permitted to join the register.
The contract has a clearly defined list of qualifications, skills, experience and vetting requirements interpreters must meet, which have been designed to meet the needs of the justice system. It covers a vast range of assignments, from simple telephone interpreting to deal with a user query to the facilitation of interpretation in a complex criminal trial. The qualifications and level of experience required will depend on the complexity of the assignment and the highest complexity level has qualification criteria comparable to those set by the national register of professional service interpreters.
It is in dealing with that vast range that the noble Baroness’s rhetorical analogy broke down. Of course I would expect my heart surgeon to have the relevant qualifications and experience to fulfil that role. At the same time, if my car developed a minor technical fault, I would not necessarily want to pay out for a consultant engineer to fix it, as opposed to taking it to the local garage.
Complaints about the quality of interpretation or the professional conduct of interpreters are carefully monitored and independently assessed by the Language Shop. The complaint rate remains low at less than 1%.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
I take it the Minister would accept that legislation could quite easily disapply those regulations in the case of the use of registered interpreters, if that legislation were correctly worded and addressed to do so.
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
Hypothetically, yes, but I hesitate to give the noble Lord a definite commitment on that, as my information on these points is substantially in answer to the point raised by the noble Baroness. But, if the noble Lord will permit me, in exploring these important points, I will make sure that the Ministry of Justice writes to him and that there is a meeting with the noble Baroness, as she sought, to discuss with her the future of this amendment. I hope that that answer will satisfy both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord.
Just to continue on that point, it is important to bear in mind that we are reviewing and engaging in consultation with various bodies. But we need to take into account the broad-ranging needs of the Ministry of Justice and to ensure that we have a service appropriate for the wide range of circumstances and the various commissioning bodies to which I have made reference. There are concerns that mandatory NRPSI membership may give unnecessary control over the supply chain, and the police interpretation contract does not require interpreters to be NRPSI registered. We need to complete a full and objective assessment of MoJ needs across the board and not to introduce NRPSI standards when we do not know what impact they might have on the overall justice system.
The Ministry of Justice is looking constantly to improve the service for users and to work collaboratively with interpreter membership organisations and language service providers to ensure that the short, medium and long-term service needs of the criminal justice system are met. Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service is starting up a language services future pipeline working group, which will focus on the issue of securing suitably qualified interpreters in the long term.
I will develop that point. As the single biggest public sector user of language services, we believe it is important for the Government to encourage new entrants into the interpreting profession and to provide them with appropriate opportunities to build up their experience levels and to maintain standards of excellence. We have an independent quality assurance supplier, which has recently developed a subsidised trainee scheme, encouraging qualification in languages that are in high demand in our courts. We will continue to work with it, and with other organisations, to improve our service and to ensure it provides access to suitably qualified interpreters in the future. The arrangements that we have in place are designed specifically to ensure that our courts and tribunals are supported by high-quality language service interpretation that meets the needs of all our court users, both now and in the future.
I turn now to some of the submissions made by your Lordships in Committee. I fully accept the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds on the distinction between translation and interpreting. But on the submission made by the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Hogan-Howe, I return to the point that there is a wide range of functions which interpreting has to carry out. With the greatest of respect, each of those noble Lords answering on this point predicated their submission on the fact that we were talking about translation at the very highest level—at the most important level of translating a potentially complex criminal trial.
In response to point made by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, again I accept that the single function of an interpreter in these circumstances is to act as a conduit by which English may be rendered into a foreign language and the foreign language rendered as accurately as it may be into English in order to assist the court. Again, that is at the very top end of the spectrum. Lower down, in simpler and more straightforward functions that I identified—the most elementary part of the range of needs that I discussed—it may well be that some well-meaning attempt to intervene and to assist, such as the noble Lord, Lord Marks, discussed, might be appropriate. I am thinking of the simple telephone inquiry that I referred to.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
There are just two points that I would like to have clarified. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, proposes a consistent high standard. I was not sure from the Minister’s response what the equivalent is in the contract. I hear that there is one, but I do not know what it is.
The second point is that there might be a spectrum of quality of interpretation. I understand that in a broad sense, but if that was to include the magistrates’ court, there are two issues there. First of all, someone’s liberty is at risk for six months and, in any case, they could be committed to a higher court for a more substantial penalty, should the magistrate decide to do that. Finally, as we have heard only today, if we look at things such as inquests, they can have very substantial consequences both for the people who apply to them and for the people who might be judged by them.
I am not quite sure about either of those points. First of all, what is the standard? Secondly, is it true to say it is always such a wide spread of necessity, given the importance to the victim, the suspect or the witness, in each of these cases?
Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
As I think I have said, the contract provides that, at the highest level, the standard is commensurate with that of the NRPSI. In answer to the noble Lord’s second point, of course none of that interrupts anything that I have said about the importance of identifying the point at which interpretation facilities suitable for the most complex case is to be found. Simply because a matter is not being tried at the Crown Court does not mean that it would not engage the need for the most detailed, able and comprehensive of interpreting facilities.
In closing, I can, as I said earlier, indicate that my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, the Minister dealing with this matter, will meet the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, who is proposing the amendment. In the circumstances, I ask her to withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Baroness Coussins (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed reply and all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and supported the principle, if not every detail, of the amendment. Some very good ideas have emerged; I am particularly taken with that of a transitional period.
A couple of questions were asked. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, referred to family courts. In a family court where an interpreter might be needed at very short notice, it strikes me as even more important, if we are talking about families and children who may be in very vulnerable circumstances, to have an interpreter who is properly qualified. Rustling up somebody at very short notice might not serve the interests of those vulnerable families and children, but I agree that it is a complex situation.
On the point raised by my noble friend about courts sometimes finding it difficult to find interpreters, that is partly to do with the fact that so many interpreters—thousands, I believe—left public service when the MoJ system was contracted out to private companies, because those companies have sustained appallingly low levels of pay and poor conditions. The Minister referred to the need to get new interpreters on board. Yes, of course, that is right, but there are also a lot existing, qualified, experienced interpreters out there who need to be brought back into public service. I believe that if their status was raised and their contribution and professionalism more readily acknowledged by having these minimum standards, which they all complied with, they would be attracted back into public service.
The Minister referred to the fact that the MoJ system is audited by the Language Shop and that complaints were very low. Yes, that is true, but the Language Shop also failed 50% of the interpreters on whom it conducted spot checks, so it is clear that qualifications without experience are not good enough.
I am grateful for the promise of a further meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, to discuss the amendment, and I look forward to discussing this issue further on Report. With that in mind, I am happy to withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Integrated Rail Plan: North and Midlands
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Rosser (Lab)
This integrated rail plan is in reality about backtracking on government promises to build the eastern leg of HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. The Government know that HS2 and full delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail would have given a major boost to the economies of our northern cities, because that is what the construction and pending completion of HS2 have already done and will continue to do for the economy of the West Midlands and Birmingham in particular. Leeds and the local West Yorkshire economy will now be denied the full £54 billion of estimated economic benefits of their HS2 link, with Leeds becoming a less attractive venue than it would have been for new and expanding businesses. Northern Powerhouse Rail delivered in full, with a new high-speed line through Bradford, was also set to deliver an estimated £22 billion for northern economies. The integrated rail plan does not address the impact of backtracking on the eastern leg of HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail on the economies of our northern cities and towns, and there was no government answer when I asked about it last Thursday.
Typically, this Government are now seeking to silence opposition to their watered-down plan, since Transport for the North, which is overseen by all the northern mayors and council leaders, has just been told that it will no longer be financed by central government to develop Northern Powerhouse Rail and that in future this work will be funded directly, and thus controlled directly, via Network Rail by the Department of Transport, a reflection of the Government’s centralising tendency and lack of enthusiasm for real devolution of power and decision-making.
The Government’s integrated rail plan, which incidentally says very little about rail freight at all, places great weight on the virtues of upgrades of existing lines and the time in which they can be completed and the costs incurred. In doing so, though, the rail plan and the Secretary of State fail to reflect the very different experience of recent major upgrades. The west coast main line was upgraded at a cost of £9 billion, nearly four times the original cost estimate of £2.5 billion. Despite costs ballooning nearly 400%, the upgrade still had to be reduced in scope from 140 mph top speed to 125 mph with moving block signalling, in-cab signalling, being abandoned; otherwise, the cost would have been up by nearly 600%. The project led to substantial upheaval to existing services over a period of years and was not completed until 2009, very late and 10 years after it started.
Work on the Great Western electrification commenced in June 2010 and was due to be completed in 2016-17, but was not completed until 2019-20. The project ran into major difficulties, causing repeated extensions to deadlines and costs to increase by more than 300%, to around £2.8 billion in 2018 from £874 million in 2013. Despite this dramatic increase in costs, the project still had to be scaled back to keep cost increases merely in excess of three times the original figure. Electrification from Didcot Parkway to Oxford, Cardiff to Swansea, Chippenham to Bath and Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads, as well as branches to Henley and Windsor, were also deferred indefinitely by the Government in November 2016, with the Cardiff to Swansea electrification being cancelled outright in July 2017.
The message is clear: upgrading routes is not as straightforward as the Government suggest. The hard evidence shows that costs will be very much higher than projected and the time taken to do the work a great deal longer than projected. Statements plucked out of the air about being able to deliver a watered-down version of what was promised a decade earlier than projected fly in the face of the facts and experience. Such statements also fly in the face of the Government’s own document, which indicates that the new lines on part of the watered-down Liverpool to Leeds route will not come into service until the 2040s—the same timescale within which the Prime Minister, in his foreword to the plan, says that high-speed lines under the original plan will have reached the east Midlands and Yorkshire.
Further, on costs, there is no breakdown of costings for each separate project within the plan, or a breakdown of any large figures within each separate project. There is also a further issue: the watered-down schemes outlined in the rail plan are dependent for delivery, on both projected capacity and speeds, on digital signalling. But I believe, perhaps mistakenly, that there is not yet a substantial tried and tested digital signalling scheme as envisaged by Secretary of State already in full operation. Indeed, people have so far been working on trying to develop such a scheme for more than 20 years. If there is a delay in the projected timescale for bringing such an as yet untried signalling development to fruition, even the watered-down schemes as projected in the rail plan will be severely compromised in respect of capacity, speed and timescale.
In the past decade, the north of England received £349 per person in transport spending, while London got £864. If the north had received the same level of spending as London, it would already have had £86 billion more since 2010. Yet this rail plan, worth £96 billion, some of which is in the south at the southern end of HS2, will take well into the 2040s at best to complete, considerably over two decades away. This plan, with its backtracking on previous pledges and reductions in previously stated future levels of expenditure, continues, not addresses, regional investment inequalities. So much for the Government’s levelling up and delivering HS2 in full, including the eastern leg, and Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I recall a particularly funny episode of “Yes Minister” in which the Prime Minister asked Jim Hacker to produce an integrated transport plan. It was called “The Bed of Nails”, and I was reminded of that episode over the weekend as I watched the Secretary of State valiantly trying and failing to sell this plan as a success for the north of England. It takes a lot of ingenuity to produce a plan that almost doubles the time it will take to get, for example, from Birmingham to York, and still call it an improvement on previous plans.
Despite the Secretary of State’s sleight of hand, the plan has not been well received. The Government have managed to unite the elected mayors of the north, the chambers of commerce in Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Birmingham, east Lancashire, Doncaster, the east Midlands and even London, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, Conservative MPs for northern constituencies and the Conservative chair of the Transport Committee in opposing and criticising the Government’s plan.
Not surprisingly, one of the critics was Transport for the North, and for that it has been stripped of its powers, which seems a very strange approach to levelling up. I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in asking the Minister to explain why control of the Northern Powerhouse Rail project will now lie solely with central government—what is it that makes Ministers so sure that they know better than the people of the north about what they need in relation to railways?
The most high-profile decision was, of course, to truncate HS2 by abandoning the eastern leg. Those cities that had expected to be directly linked to a new 21st-century rail line have developed investment plans predicated on that and expected an economic boost along those lines. They now have to start again following a massive no-confidence vote by the Government. As the noble Lord said, transport spend per head is scarcely more than one-third of the size that it is in London. In her answer to me last Thursday, the Minister admitted that abandoning HS2 and reducing the Northern Powerhouse Rail plans
“saves the taxpayer billions of pounds.”—[Official Report, 18/11/21; col. 407.]
I suggest to the Minister that this approach is totally unacceptable. What do the Government plan to do to redress the balance now that their levelling-up promises to the north of England lie in tatters?
HS2 was always as much about capacity as speed. The Government are going instead for a patchwork of schemes, with short stretches of electrification. Digital signalling, which has long been promised, and longer platforms for longer trains will create some extra capacity but it does not compare with what a whole new railway would do. The Government promised to electrify 13,000 kilometres of railway by 2050 and so far have done 2.2% of that. So we are 235 years behind schedule. I ask the Minister: after all the stretches referred to in the plan have been completed, what percentage will we be on?
Finally, one of the reasons for building a new line is that the upgrading of existing lines is enormously disruptive. As a veteran of 10 years of Great Western’s electrification, I can attest to that. What calculations have the Government made of the cost of disruption for the lines they propose to upgrade?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their considered responses to the integrated rail plan. I too had the opportunity, over the weekend, to read the documents in detail and consider the sorts of questions I might face today. Actually, noble Lords have not disappointed so far in the issues that they have raised—and I accept that they feel very strongly about this.
Having read the documents and considered this more carefully, I think the integrated rail plan is an elegant solution. We had a very outdated plan, the old plan, which did not properly take into account some developments, particularly from the national transport bodies, notably Transport for the North and Northern Powerhouse Rail, and Midlands Engine Rail, Midlands Connect and the Midlands Rail Hub. None of them had a proper look-in in the plans. We saw that costs were rising and that the whole thing did not fit well together, so it was absolutely right for the Government to go back, look at the plans, set them all out and consider what we are actually trying to achieve. The goal is not to build new railways; it is just something that enables people to get from A to B more quickly, more frequently and at a cheaper cost. That is what we are trying to do.
How we choose to do that is a combination of stretches of new railway, as noble Lords know, and some upgrades to existing railways. That is a very elegant situation that comes at a lower cost to the taxpayer. I will not and see no reason to apologise for that at all. It also happens much more quickly than it would otherwise, so we need to take a step back. There are a lot of winners here. I would like to be living in Nottingham, quite frankly; people there are going to have a great time. Good old Derby will have direct access to HS2, which it was nowhere close to prior to this. Also, all the places along the Midlands main line will get electrification and have more reliable journeys now. They did not even get a look-in in the old plans.
We have taken a more considered approach to the system as a whole. I accept that life has changed slightly for Leeds, but Leeds is also benefiting from this. We have said that we will spend £100 million on looking at how to get HS2 to Leeds. We will look at whether the current station can absorb the additional capacity and we will finally start work on the West Yorkshire mass transit system. This is great news for Leeds, so I do not share the doom and gloom of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about its economic future. Actually, having a train line that goes to Manchester is just one of the things that people in Leeds might want; they might also want to travel around their own city on a mass transit system. I think we have been able to help Leeds in this regard. The impact on economies will be set out in the business cases for all the different schemes, as we go forward.
On TfN and its change of role, this is not at all unusual within the Department for Transport. We have a good relationship with TfN and it has an important role in providing us with statutory advice. However, the Northern Powerhouse Rail programme will be in the Government’s major projects portfolio and it requires clear accountability to the Secretary of State. Therefore, the client will be the Department for Transport, but that does not cut out Transport for the North. It has a joint sponsorship role, and again it is important that it can offer advice and knows what is going on with the project. In terms of delivery, however, it must be accountable to the Secretary of State to make sure that we keep things moving as we need to.
There was a comment about the Government not being a fan of devolution, on which I beg to differ. The city region sustainable transport settlements have committed £5.7 billion to our major cities. That is truly transport devolution on a large scale.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, came up with a litany of delays that had happened previously. I do not disagree that sometimes large transport infrastructure projects suffer from delays. None of us involved in transport likes delays but sometimes they happen. However, I am not entirely sure why they would not then happen to elements of HS2. Given that the previous full “Y” going all the way up was not going to be delivered until the mid-2040s, my goodness, we could be looking to the mid-2060s before that was delivered then, had it been delayed. I am not sure that that is necessarily a reason for not liking the Government’s plans.
On the issue of disruption, all transport infrastructure projects are disruptive. We know that. However, the approach taken by this IRP will cause less disruption that previous plans would have. For example, the HS2 eastern leg in full would have caused significant disruption to the motorway network. It would have crossed it 13 times. I am the Roads Minister—that disruption would have been quite challenging. We know that enhancements to existing lines will ease bottlenecks and make rail services more reliable. We will work very closely with the rail industry to minimise disruption as the schemes are developed and delivered.
I turn now to the issue of digital signalling. If I may, I will write on this issue so I can provide the most up-to-date information that I have.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked what percentage will be electrified when this is all finished. In my brief I have the figure of 75%, which I want to check. It feels right—but you think, okay, we are going to go from quite a small percentage to 75%. We are going to be electrifying hundreds of miles of railway line, so this probably is right but, again, I will write to 100% confirm that number. This is a huge electrification programme, as I am sure the noble Baroness will understand.
Let us turn to money. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned it and so did the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. This is the sort of thing that I get a little bit confused by. We are in a strange parallel universe where it matters only how much you are spending rather than what you are spending it on. That strikes me as bizarre. People are saying to me “But you are not spending this money on this railway line,”. No, but we are providing more benefits to more people, more quickly for less money. Surely that is a good thing.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that I believe that the leader of the Opposition has in mind to establish something called the value for money office, should he ever become Prime Minister. He may well think that that is a very good idea. But I say to the noble Lord that, if he had the Government’s integrated rail plan at £96 billion—providing some pretty good service uplifts and some good improvements in journey times—versus the previous outdated plans costing £185 billion, and if he were to give those to this new-fangled value for money office, I wonder which one it would choose.
Lord Snape (Lab)
My Lords, if the Minister believes that this solution of hers is so elegant, why have she and fellow Ministers been advocating something different for so many years? That is the first and obvious question. The second one is that she talks about capacity. Is she aware that any student of the railways will tell you that capacity on a stretch of line is governed by the speed of the slowest train? Taking fast trains away and running them on their own infrastructure enables capacity to be increased on other lines too. The mixture of freight trains, slow passenger trains and fast passenger trains, as well as HS2, will not increase capacity; indeed, rather the reverse.
Finally, what the Government propose will mean years of delay, dislocation and bus substitution because, as we proved as far back as the 1960s, it is impossible to run an intensive service on a railway while you are improving it and electrifying it. It just cannot be done.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I hope that we are able to prove the noble Lord, Lord Snape, wrong in that regard. Obviously, we have done a significant amount of work on this and we believe it can be done. In terms of the fact that we have previously been advocating for a different style of network, I do not see that is a particular issue. Sometimes when the facts change, you have to change what you are proposing. The issue here is: do we have endless amounts of money? No, we do not. Can we deliver very good improvements to service for just under half the amount of money? I think we can. The other thing is that we can use the money we are not spending for other vital investments, so it is not such that that money is suddenly disappearing.
The noble Lord talked about capacity, and this is a really important point: the capacity constraints on the west coast main line are far greater than on the east coast main line. We will be able to get capacity improvements on the east coast mainline. It is far more important that we improve capacity on the west coast main line, which is why we have developed the plans that we have.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, Bradford does not come out very well, or have any joy, from this. I was very unhappy with the way in which the Minister answered questions on Thursday; I thought she was condescending to the House, which was inappropriate. I am glad that she is now engaging with the reasoned arguments others are making.
There are a number of inaccuracies in this paper. It refers to “introducing” an electrified line from Leeds to Bradford—but I travel on an electrified line from Leeds to the north of Bradford most weekends. It also refers to “electrifying” the Leeds to York section. I happened to travel on that on Monday of last week and the gantries for the electric wires are already up—so I suspect that the investment for that has already been made and it is not new money. So I puzzle over the accuracy of some of what is being said.
I ask, however, about capacity across the Pennines, because clearly the biggest cost of the new line from Leeds to Manchester via Bradford would have been the tunnel through the Pennines. The capacity across the Pennines is extremely tight and, unless one doubles the Standedge tunnel, you are going to have a choke point on upgrading the line between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield. Do the Government intend to double the Standedge tunnel, or would they consider that?
A cost-benefit analysis of the Calder Valley and north-east Lancashire—the latter being one of the poorest areas in England—would show that a more northerly line between Leeds and Manchester would spread benefits economically in a way which upgrading the current line simply will not do.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
Well, I am very happy to write to the noble Lord on the detail of his question, as I am not well versed on the tunnels et cetera in the area to which he referred. I apologise if he felt that I was condescending to the House on Thursday. It is, of course, always very funny to be asked lots of questions based on the media rather than the actual documents, which had not been published at that time—and of course the questions were about upgrading, and I could not answer them. Maybe the noble Baroness had read the documents, but I had not, so I could not answer.
Bradford will benefit from electrification of the line to Leeds, and improved journey times will mean that you can get from Bradford to Leeds in 12 minutes—that is quite some distance in 12 minutes. I wish I could get that far in London. So it will benefit, and I think that we will look at various other projects as well. Part of the whole issue we are looking is the core pipeline work, which is set out in the Integrated Rail Plan, but we will look at any other scheme and service that will offer further improvements. This is exactly what the National Infrastructure Commission suggested that we do. This is the Integrated Rail Plan, and this is the core pipeline of work and, if noble Lords have suggestions for other schemes that would be affordable, would further improve our ability to improve services, and would be deliverable, I would really appreciate it if noble Lords would forward them to us.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)
My Lords, is it not the case that the credibility of these proposals depends on long-term political consensus? We are not here until 2040 and 2060, sitting around this Chamber. Years ago, I did a couple of jobs for the World Bank on transport infrastructure investment, returns and so on. It is absolutely vital that you nail down the fact that it has got to have long-term political consensus. In this country we are not even trying to do that in terms of the Government opening the door to other people to try to agree on some proposals.
Does the Minister recognise what Hilary Benn said the other day, that the proposals put forward as a long-term plan—for nearly a hundred years, as the Victorians did—would have had
“Victorian railway engineers scratching their heads in disbelief”?—[Official Report, Commons, 18/11/21; col. 740.]
What will the Government do to ensure there is scope for getting together proposals—including some of these—systematically to achieve a long-term cross-party consensus? That is the only way that they will not fall flat on their face.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I hope that I have just outlined to the noble Lord that we will continue to look at schemes that we can put in place in addition to the core pipeline. The RNIP will be published in due course. I hope that will reassure noble Lords that there is a programme in place, and that we will take forward some of the commitments that we have already made. As I have said, I look forward to hearing suggestions from whichever side of the House.
Lord McLoughlin (Con)
One of the problems that the Government face is about expectations, and the rise in expectations as far as transport is concerned. The Secretary of State made a number of important announcements last week, some of which have been called for. The problems of overruns in railways—I certainly had my fair share of them when I was Secretary of State—is common to the industry. I wish Network Rail well in its attempts to keep these under control. I come to the point that HS2, which will be 75% built as originally put forward, was always about capacity. It is very important that the question of capacity be properly addressed. I see from the plan published by the Secretary of State last week that the Government are still looking at options for HS2 to Leeds. The areas that have blight at the moment, because they are being considered as options for that, will continue to have that blight. I hope that the Government will come to conclusions on those options as quickly as possible. I wish my noble friend well, and I wish the Government well in ensuring that the public transport that we all want to see is actually delivered.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I appreciate the wise words of my noble friend. It is the case to a certain extent that some people’s expectations were not met by this plan but, as I have said, there are many things to commend it. I have already mentioned Nottingham and Derby, and there are so many other places that will benefit from this plan. This really is building back better but also with better value for money. I know that a number of noble Lords have questions around capacity. I will include in my letter to noble Lords how we intend to improve capacity in various ways on different parts of the railway; it is all set out in the plan but it might be helpful if I draw it all together for noble Lords. I will also perhaps arrange an open meeting with Minister Stephenson so that noble Lords can quiz him; he is the person who knows this back to front.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, in reaching the decision to end the HS2 track in the east Midlands rather than Leeds, and HS2 trains at Sheffield rather than Newcastle, what economic impact assessment was done by the Government of the effects on both Yorkshire and the north-east—given that private developer investment will inevitably follow the HS2 track due to the extra capacity that it will provide—or is it the case that no impact assessment on Yorkshire and the north-east has actually been done?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
As I explained previously, different places are getting different things. The impact from an economic perspective will therefore be varied. The integrated rail plan gives more certainty to people who want to invest in various places. Quite frankly, I were a business, I would still look very favourably on Leeds. It is about to have a mass transit system that no one has previously managed to give it.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
My Lords, I was back in Yorkshire at the weekend, as I am sure everyone would expect. It is hard to convey the anger and sense of betrayal felt across the whole of the north, but particularly in the whole of Yorkshire. There are so many issues to discuss but, frankly, Leeds does not need to be told from down here exactly what is good for it. While a tram will be very welcome it does not in any way, shape or form compensate for the loss of connectivity or address the congestion of Leeds station, given the cancelling of the proposals that the plan put forward last week.
I was going to ask the Minister about the upgrading of the lines and the chaos it will cause. We all remember the timetabling chaos. If the work east of Marsden is not addressed with alternative routes, goodness knows what is going to happen to us. Throughout the document, which I read, there is reference to post-Covid changes of transport use—the fact that the tram will take away the need for investment in the station. Is the Minister aware that levels of passenger use going through Leeds station are already back to pre-Covid levels, and that at weekends it is actually above that level? Please, what are the plans doing to address the fact that if we do not get the investment we need, Leeds City station will fall over within the next four or five years?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I just reiterate that we have absolutely not ruled out getting HS2 to Leeds. It is part of the wider pipeline of work that we are considering; obviously, the station is critical to that as well; as is the mass transit. Among the key things that I need to reassure noble Lords of in this are the capacity and track improvements, along with the digital signalling and all the things that we hope to do on the east coast main line. As I said earlier, it is not as needful of extra capacity as the west coast main line. We believe that by making the improvements, we will see faster journey times to Leeds, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh. We will also see those journey times reduce far sooner than we would have done with the old plans.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I too live in Yorkshire and am proud to do so. I can confirm that there is an extraordinary sense of anger and betrayal as regards the plan for rail infrastructure in the county. I want to address the issue of rail freight, which has one page in the document—one page. There is a line in the document which says that the aim is to take road haulage off the M62 and transfer it to rail. I hope the Minister can answer on this, because within the plan there are no specific aims for the volume of haulage that it is intended to get off road and on to rail. There are no specific proposals for hubs and terminals where the exchange can take place. There is nothing about logistics, which are essential, and no specifics for rail infrastructure other than a possibility—I think that is the word in the plan—of a third track on the part of the trans-Pennine route from Huddersfield to Marsden. Of course, following Marsden is the Standedge tunnel, which has already been raised.
Can the Minister provide details as to how this modal shift from road to rail is going to occur, in what volume and to what timescale? While I am at it, she mentioned that £200 million has been allocated for mass transit in Leeds so I quickly ask her: since £100 million of that has already been allocated to a discussion about how to get HS2 to Leeds, and there is only £100 million for the Leeds transit, what will that buy?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The work on Leeds mass transit will be driven by West Yorkshire Combined Authority. It will be its plan, but we will support it on that and ensure that we can get the best possible outcome for the people of Leeds in terms of getting mass transit in place. As the noble Baroness knows, West Yorkshire Combined Authority received a very good settlement from the CRSTS. As that extends for only five years and this will need longer development than that, we commit to continue working with the authority on the mass transit system.
The noble Baroness mentioned rail freight. She is right that this does not leap out of the pages of the IRP, but it is not really supposed to. Rail freight is absolutely a feature of the Williams-Shapps rail review and the work we are doing there. As we put in place Great British Railways, we will focus on national co-ordination of rail freight, again looking for projects to make sure that this can happen as easily as possible.
As I have mentioned numerous times, this is not the end and there are other projects that could be added to this to improve it. We will introduce a new, rules-based track access regime with a statutory underpinning for freight and open-access operators. Essentially, we want to maximise the usage of a very extensive and expensive national asset. Rail freight is at the core of much of what we are doing on the railways, as well as many of our wider discussions on freight.
Lord Walney (CB)
My Lords, as has been said, reduced passenger numbers are mentioned at a number of points in the document as justification for some of the changes. Can the Minister confirm whether changed modelling in predictions of journeys has been part of that? If that has not been locked into the numbers, or if there is so much uncertainty over those numbers, does that not mean that there is a grave risk that even the reduced expansion which was announced last week could be further reduced if hybrid working creates more of a structured change in passenger flows than previously thought?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The noble Lord raises a really important question. I have stood at this Dispatch Box and been asked many times how we will change capacity based on what has happened post Covid. We are confident that things will continue to change and that we will see greater usage. We are also quite sure that that usage may not look exactly the same as it did.
One of the biggest issues with the old plan was that it was not properly integrated with other local, regional and national transport networks. We think we can do that much better. Detailed modelling and up-to-date forecasting will happen whenever a business case goes through its various stages. I would not expect any wholesale changes, but this may lead us to think about what infill and other schemes we might consider in order to maximise our initial investment in the IRP. That might be something we should look at in light of future forecasts for demand.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Monday 22nd November 2021
(2 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 View all Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 40-XI Eleventh marshalled list for Committee - (22 Nov 2021)
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
“Harassment in a public place
(1) A person must not engage in any conduct in a public place— (a) which amounts to harassment of another, and(b) which he or she knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person would think the conduct amounted to harassment of the other.(3) For the purposes of this section—“conduct” includes speech;“harassment” of a person includes causing the person alarm or distress.(4) Subsection (1) does not apply to conduct if the person can show—(a) that it was for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime,(b) that it was under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or(c) that in the particular circumstances it was reasonable.(5) A person who engages in any conduct in breach of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both.”Member’s explanatory statement
This would create a specific offence of street harassment.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
These important amendments deal with the attempts to make this Bill a reset as far as violence against women and girls is concerned. They create a number of new offences and indicate that there should be reviews in certain areas in relation to harassment and other related things. I will go through each one in turn.
Amendment 284, in my name, would create a specific offence of street harassment. It is not limited to sexual harassment because the experience of men and women on the street is not restricted to sexual harassment. In July 2021, the Home Secretary indicated that she was thinking of introducing a crime of sexual harassment. There are a whole range of studies about the effect, particularly on women, of harassment in the street. A United Nations study, not restricted to the United Kingdom, said that 70% of women had been affected by street harassment, 4% said that it was worth complaining about it and 45% said that it was not. The sort of harassment that one has in mind in relation to this offence is wolf-whistling, people being called out to, people being the victim of people treating them with a total lack of respect in a way that might cause alarm or distress. As I say, it is not restricted to women; other groups are affected as well. Members of the LGBTQ community speak of harassment that they suffer in particular places. It would be wrong to restrict the terms of this offence to a particular type of harassment or a particular group of people, but this proposed new clause makes it an offence to subject somebody to what a reasonable person would regard as harassment, and harassment includes causing that person alarm or distress.
I very much hope that the Government will take up the opportunity that the Home Secretary herself indicated was worth taking up. That would indicate that the sorts of behaviour that in many cases occur throughout the length and breadth of the country would no longer be acceptable, and if people behave better and do not commit acts of harassment, that will have an affect right up the scale. In terms of the drafting, the proposed new clause sets it out very clearly, but we are open to any suggestions about how it may be drafted better.
Amendment 285 makes it an offence to kerb-crawl. We define it as
“an offence for a person, from a motor vehicle while it is in a street or public place … to engage in conduct which amounts to harassment in such manner or in such circumstances as to be likely to cause annoyance, alarm, distress or nuisance to any other person.”
That seeks to deal with people in their cars winding down their windows and shouting, barracking and making life difficult, often with a sexual undertone or more than an undertone. Again, that should be a crime, and something that we very much hope that the Government will treat as a serious matter. We hope that they will take up the suggestion that has been made. Again, if there are better ways of drafting it, we are more than open to hearing them, but Amendment 285 provides the basis for such a crime.
Amendments 292A and 292B are about sex for rent, which should be a crime. This is where an individual offers accommodation at a reduced cost or free in exchange for sex. This arrangement can be either at the beginning of a tenancy or enforced during a tenancy, often when tenants are experiencing difficulties in finding somewhere to live or in paying the rent. Sex for rent arrangements force people, especially women, into the most vulnerable of situations, often in enclosed private spaces to which a perpetrator has constant and unrestricted access. This has been a matter of campaign for a considerable period, particularly from groups such as Generation Rent. Politicians from all parties have picked it up and investigative journalists have too.
This Bill provides an opportunity to do something about it. A 2016 Shelter survey found that 8% of women had been offered a sex-for-rent arrangement at some point in their lives. In 2018, YouGov and Shelter estimated that 250,000 women had been asked for sexual favours by their landlords in exchange for free or discounted accommodation at some point between 2013 and 2018. More recent research by Shelter, which regards this as a serious issue, suggested that 30,000 women in the United Kingdom were propositioned with such arrangements between the start of the pandemic in March 2020 and January 2021. It is not difficult to imagine that the question of how one affords accommodation became more and more difficult for certain people during the pandemic.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I support Amendment 284 for all the reasons that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, has explained. However, I respectfully suggest to him that there is a slight mismatch between that amendment and Amendment 285. Amendment 284 is so broadly defined, for the reasons that have been very well expressed, that it would include the conduct that is described in Amendment 285. Indeed, if we look at the wording of Amendment 285, harassment is an essential element of that offence.
I raise the point because there is a difference between the penalties. The value of the kerb-crawling clause is that it introduces a possibility of disqualification, and I see the force of that, but the fine is only level 3, whereas the fine in Amendment 284 is level 5. If I was a prosecutor, having to decide which charge to bring, I would probably go for the offence in Amendment 284 and forget about the disqualification. I wonder whether, if the noble and learned Lord is thinking of bringing the matter back, he might try to amalgamate these two and perhaps put a subsection into Amendment 284 to cover the situation that if the harassment offence is conducted from a motorcar, in the way broadly described in Amendment 285, it would attract the additional penalty of disqualification. It would then be brought into Amendment 284’s sanctions, which are imprisonment, which might well be appropriate in a kerb-crawling offence, and also the level 5 fine. That is a refinement of drafting, but I am very much in favour of Amendment 284 as it stands, particularly in view of the broad way in which it is expressed.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I offer Green support for all these amendments. Some of my questions have just been answered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and his suggestion that some of the amendments be combined is positive, because retaining the opportunity to take away the right to a vehicle in an offence involving a vehicle is very useful.
I am aware of the time and the pressure to make progress, but it is a great pity that we are discussing such an important group of amendments, all put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, so late at night and in this rather rushed way. I will just draw some comparisons and links between them.
One thing to highlight is how much these amendments come from community campaigning from the grass roots up. I imagine that the campaign for the offence of harassment draws, in large part, from the group called Our Streets Now, set up by sisters Gemma and Maya Tutton, aged 16 and 22, who are working with the charity Plan International UK. Their hashtag is #CrimeNotCompliment. I suspect that the noble and learned Lord might have drawn on their ready-made Bill and I note that this has had strong cross-party support in the other place. I draw on the words of the women’s rights campaigner Nimco Ali, who said it is “bizarre” that street sexual harassment is still legal. Littering and smoking are banned, but this kind of behaviour is not.
On Amendment 285, I briefly highlight that Generation Rent, another grass-roots campaign group, has been pushing for action here. A report by Shelter in January found that, between March and September 2020, around 30,000 women had been offered housing in exchange for sex. This is a function of the extreme dysfunction of our current housing system.
I have to address Amendment 292M personally because, as I suspect is the case for many people, particularly women, it is something I have personally experienced. I was 11 years old in another country, out in the centre of Sydney on my own, when I was subjected to this offence. I was taught, as lots of young girls were then and probably still are now, to laugh, turn around and walk away. But that I can still vividly remember that street scene shows that it had an impact on me. When I look back now, I felt as an 11 year-old that this was a threat to my right to be on the streets. I did not tell my mother, because I was worried that she would think I should not be allowed out on my own to exercise the freedom that I wanted and continued to exercise. It is crucial that we see a change in attitude here and a review is a good way to address that.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has covered Amendment 292T very well, but we must note that Femicide Census, campaigning on this and broader issues, reports no sign of a reduction in the rate of femicide. That study covered a 10-year span from 2009 to 2018. We are not making progress on this, but we need to. I hope the Government will go away and look at this important group of amendments very seriously, and come back to us with proposals covering—I like to be an optimist—all of them.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, spiking is a serious matter and people who do it should be caught and punished, but I issue a note of caution, because I am slightly worried about Amendment 292R, put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I am worried it might be too reactive and respond to the perception that this is a major problem, rather than a cool factual analysis. Calling for an urgent review could unintentionally fuel what might be a moral panic and create a climate of fear.
To give some context, despite the headlines and social media hysteria, some careful commentators and a range of experts have raised doubts, queried some of the sensationalist coverage and warned against overreacting. There was a useful article in Vice that started the debunking, which quoted Guy Jones, a senior scientist at the drugs charity The Loop, who pointed out that
“few drugs would be able to be injected like this”,
using a needle. Administering drugs in this way is just not an easy task. Some experts have explained that it would be particularly difficult to use date-rape drugs, because of the larger needle that would be needed and that it would need to be in the body for at least 20 seconds.
The director of the Global Drug Survey, Adam Winstock, notes:
“There are very few widely accessible drugs”
that could be used in this way and given intramuscularly in small enough volumes that people would not notice. A critical care nurse I saw interviewed suggested that the likelihood of administering drugs like ketamine was virtually zero. After a high-profile report about somebody being infected by HIV, the National AIDS Trust pointed out:
“Getting HIV from a needle injury is extremely rare. A diagnosis takes weeks.”
So it is worth pausing.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendments 292A and 292B. In doing so, I declare my interest as director of Generation Rent.
In my view, men advertising free rent for sex are not landlords, they are predators; they prey on vulnerable women and men with limited financial options. The fact that they use Covid as a marketing technique is abhorrent. They do not provide, or even attempt to provide, a safe, secure home; they deliberately take advantage of people. Although the law and CPS guidance in this area were updated a few years ago, they are still flawed and inadequate. Action against these predators needs to be enforced, investigated and prosecuted. The web platforms such as Craigslist, which is reportedly worth £7.5 billion, that facilitate this exploitation need to have action taken against them. They host these ads, yet they are ignored by law enforcement. Some of these predators may not be aware that they are breaking the law; however, I am sure that many are laughing at the law. They post their ads, which are open and explicit, and their criminal actions pass by unhindered because they know that they can post these ads without consequence.
Despite it being a criminal offence, as my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton said, there has only ever been one charge for sex for rent. That was in January this year, and it was because of the good work of journalists who passed their evidence to the police. Thanks to that and an investigation by ITV researchers in 2009, this then resulted in further criminal inquiries.
Of course, as director of Generation Rent, I would say that dealing with the criminal justice aspects of this issue is only one side of the problem. Hand in hand with these criminal justice changes there needs to be action to address the insecure housing situation and financial vulnerabilities of thousands of people in this country. We need a dramatic increase in social housing. It was reported last week that fewer than 6,000 social homes were built last year. We need more interventions to support renters in arrears. Rent arrears have tripled during the pandemic, and more renters than ever are now on universal credit. We need a proper and permanent end to private renters being able to be evicted for no reason with just two months’ notice. Hundreds of thousands of people are financially vulnerable and live at risk of homelessness and exploitation.
No one should ever be forced by coercion or circumstance to exchange sex for a home. The law needs to better protect renters from these predators, who seek to exploit them in return for a roof over their head. I very much support the amendments tabled by my noble friend and look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, I entirely support the motivation behind all the amendments in the group, comprehensively spoken to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I am, however, hesitant about the detail of the new offences proposed, and that goes further than the drafting—I fully accept that the noble and learned Lord suggested that there could be changes to the drafting. All five of the new offences have problems of breadth. That prevents me giving unqualified support to creating these new offences without considerable further research being undertaken.
I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, that there is some danger to having a review of the spiking offence, but, in general, as distinct from the specific new offences, I am entirely unqualified in my support for the two amendments calling for urgent reviews of the law on exposure and on spiking. We need to consider carefully how the law in these two areas is working, the extent to which it needs reform and exactly what reform is needed. The review mechanism proposed in the amendments is comprehensive and sensible, and the amendments have the potential, if accepted, to lead to measured and evidence-based reform which will work well. It is that type of reform that we should all want.
The amendments creating each of the five new offences in this group respond to entirely justifiable views that something must be done, but I am not sure that the conditions on which criminal liability is imposed have been sufficiently reviewed and considered. The response I would like to see in each case from the Government is a promise to consider the new offences carefully and, with expert help, to see whether they can come up with offences that would be clearly defined, thoroughly drafted and delineated, and limited to behaviour that should properly be criminal, with all the pitfalls considered.
I fully agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, that we have suffered in this Bill from trying to do everything in a rush. These amendments, while well intentioned and in the right spirit, fall into that danger.
We could take the creation of the new offence of non-fatal strangulation in the Domestic Abuse Act as a useful template. The proceedings on that provision in that Act also proved that there does not need to be undue delay in ensuring that a well-drafted provision reaches the statute book. Indeed, it might be possible to include new offences in all these areas, if only the Government would give a sensible allocation of more time for their consideration.
Perhaps I may give several examples of my concerns—they include those expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, but go further. On street harassment, in Amendment 284, I am concerned about the breadth of the proposed offence. The noble and learned Lord saw it as a virtue that it was not confined to sexual harassment. I do not agree with that, because “harassment” as defined is so broad that it criminalises behaviour that many people would not believe ought to be criminal.
I am also concerned about the use of the words “ought to know” in the context of harassment. When a defendant does not know that conduct amounts to harassment but is charged on the basis that he ought to have known it, is that properly a criminal offence? These are not drafting points; they reflect a concern about criminalising behaviour with a particular target—generally sexual harassment, as has been said—while included in the target are far more offenders than could properly have been envisaged.
On kerb-crawling, I am concerned that the definition in subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in Amendment 285 is far wider than anything that would normally be understood as kerb-crawling, which usually has to do with soliciting prostitution. This would cover any conduct amounting to harassment, after getting out of the vehicle, that is
“likely to cause annoyance, alarm, distress or nuisance”.
It seems to me that any incident of road rage could therefore be covered. The proposed offence is completely two-sided. The suggested penalty is revocation of a licence, or a fine. Why revocation of a licence? Incidents of road rage may be two-way—there may be blame on both sides. Why not a shorter ban, if the removal of a licence is indeed appropriate?
Amendment 292A concerns the offence of sex for rent and Amendment 292B concerns facilitating it. These amendments are directed at unscrupulous landlords and owners or providers of accommodation. Appalling behaviour, such as that outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, would be covered by the proposed offence, but is that behaviour all that the proposed offence would cover? The definition includes the words “requiring or accepting” sexual relations. Is the provider of the accommodation always the only guilty party? Should such behaviour always be criminal? What about the landlady of the bed and breakfast who seduces the potential paying guest and offers him or her a free room in return? Is that always to be criminal? Even if it is, is that offence always triable on indictment only? Is that proportionate? I suggest not—it needs further thought. The business of sex for rent is disgraceful, in exactly the way expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, but we need to be very careful about what we introduce in response to the outrage that is felt as a result.
On Amendment 292T and sexually motivated homicide, of course one understands the motivation behind creating that new offence, but my concern is that, as drafted, the offence would criminalise behaviour where the perpetrator intended no harm at all to the person who died. It covers a person who kills another
“in the course of … sexual gratification”
and intends the act—in other words, has the intention to do whatever sexual act it is that led to the death of the person who dies. Would this not cover consensual acts desired or intended by both parties which, whether by accident or misfortune, led to the death of one of them? The noble and learned Lord said that this was there to outlaw the defence of rough sex. I understand that it is there for that purpose, but people have sex that gives them heart attacks—that is an extreme and, in a sense, absurd example, but there are a lot of sexual acts that lead to harm. You cannot criminalise them all just to deal with the defence of rough sex. Some of those acts would be unintentional and innocent.
My point is not to resist any change in the criminal law; it is simply to point out how careful we need to be in passing new legislation before we introduce new rafts of offences that go far too wide. That would be a restriction on freedom, not an improvement in the freedom of the citizen from new offences. I hope that the Government will respond to these amendments in a positive way, but with great care and in the spirit of compromise between the need for care and the need to criminalise behaviour that truly ought to be criminal.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for setting out these amendments, which call for new offences to tackle street harassment and so-called sex for rent, propose a review of the offences of exposure and administering a substance with intent, and seek to address cases which involve the so-called rough sex defence.
On Amendments 284 and 285, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, no one can doubt the gravity of the issue these amendments seek to address. Like the Committee, the House and the whole country, I was very shocked by the tragic events of September; first, Sabina Nessa and then the revelations about how the murderer of Sarah Everard had abused his position as a police officer to commit his awful crimes. While these are the most serious violent crimes which can happen to women, they form just one part of what Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary referred to in its recent report as an epidemic of violence against women and girls.
What is so striking is how these crimes have galvanised so many women and girls across the country to talk about their experiences and their suffering. To many of us—although not, of course, to those who experience it—the sheer scale of the problem has been shocking. Many of the more than 180,000 responses which we received to the call for evidence on the Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls strategy addressed this issue, as did the report published by Plan International UK in September. Figures released by the Office for National Statistics in August about perceptions of personal safety and experiences of harassment were equally shocking. For example, two out of three women aged between 16 and 34 had experienced one form of harassment in the previous 12 months. Thankfully, those experiences are not of the same level of gravity as what happened to the women who I have just spoken about, but they are still deeply traumatic to their victims.
I assure noble Lords that tackling violence against women and girls is a huge priority for this Government. We published our new Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls strategy in July. As the Home Secretary wrote in her foreword, violence against women and girls is not inevitable, and
“This Strategy will help bring about real and lasting change.”
On the issue of sexual harassment in public places, it sets out a number of commitments. A national communications campaign will challenge this kind of behaviour and ensure victims know how and where to report it. To ensure police are confident about how to respond to public sexual harassment, the College of Policing will provide new guidance for officers; this work is already well advanced. To prevent the behaviour happening in the first place, we will work to deepen our understanding of who commits these crimes, why they do it and how this behaviour may escalate, including through our new funding on what works to tackle violence against women and girls.
The strategy confirmed that we will pilot a tool, StreetSafe, which will enable the public to anonymously report areas where they feel unsafe and identify what it was about the location that made them feel that way, so that police can use that information to improve community safety. The pilot launched in August. The strategy also confirmed that the Government are investing a further £25 million in the safer streets fund to enable local areas to put in place innovative crime prevention measures to ensure that women and girls feel safe in public spaces. The successful bids were announced in October. The strategy also confirmed that the Home Office would launch a £5 million safety of women at night fund focused on the prevention of violence against women and girls in public spaces at night. The successful bids were announced on 10 November, and our commitment to this issue cannot be in doubt.
However, there is rightly considerable interest in the legal position, including whether there should be a new law specifically targeted at this type of behaviour. I pay tribute to parliamentarians in both Houses for their campaigning on this issue and to the organisations Plan International UK and Our Streets Now—the latter, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, said, set up by two sisters out of a determination that other women and girls should not suffer sexual harassment as they had.
As noble Lords will know from the tackling VAWG strategy, while there is not a specific offence of street harassment, there are a number of offences in place that capture that behaviour—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Marks, who talked about behaviours—depending on the specific circumstances, including offences under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Public Order Act 1986 and the Sexual Offences Act 2003. However, we are looking carefully at where there might be gaps in existing law and how a specific offence of public sexual harassment could address those. That work continues and is being informed by the results of the call for evidence and by our direct engagement with campaigners on this issue. We have not yet reached a position on it and I cannot commit to have done so ahead of Report; as the strategy notes, this is a complex area and it is important that we take time to ensure that any potential legislation is necessary, proportionate and reasonably defined.
On Amendments 292A and 292B, we can all agree that so-called sex for rent is an exploitative and abhorrent phenomenon that has no place in our society. That said, there are existing offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 that might be used to prosecute the practice, including the Section 52 offence of causing or inciting prostitution for gain and the Section 53 offence of controlling prostitution for gain. Both offences carry a maximum penalty of seven years’ imprisonment and can capture instances of “sex for rent”, dependent on the circumstances of the individual case. The Section 52 offence would apply when the identified victim had been caused or incited to engage in prostitution. In addition, the online safety Bill will also place duties on sites that host user-generated content, such as social media companies, to protect their users from illegal content. This would include posts that are committing the offence of inciting—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I apologise for interrupting, but is it right that those existing sexual offences all require the victims in “sex for rent” cases to be characterised as engaging in prostitution?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I was going to get on to that, because I had noted the noble and learned Lord’s point. There are two answers. The first is that anyone who makes the report to the police will benefit from the anonymity provisions in the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992. The second is that the Section 52 offence applies when an identified victim has been caused to engage in prostitution or incited to do so, whether or not the prostitution takes place. In other words, a victim does not have to identify as a prostitute for the Sections 52 and 53 offences to be used. I hope that partly answers his question, although he does not look entirely convinced.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
How can the Minister tell when I am wearing my mask?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I can see the noble and learned Lord’s eyebrows.
In 2019, the Crown Prosecution Service amended its guidance Prostitution and Exploitation of Prostitution to include specific reference to the potential availability of charges under the Sections 52 and 53 offences where there is evidence to support the existence of “sex for rent” arrangements, and—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, pointed out—in January this year the CPS authorised the first charge for “sex for rent” allegations under Section 52.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)
If the offences were in place in 2003 and the guidance updated in 2019, why does the Minister believe that it is only this year that the first charge has been made for sex for rent?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I do not disagree that it is only now being prosecuted. The point is that it is being prosecuted, and that is what I was trying to get over. The defendant in that case has pleaded guilty to two counts of inciting prostitution for gain, but as there is due to be a trial on an unrelated matter, it is probably not wise for me to comment further on this.
The noble Baroness talked about landlords. It is imperative that we ensure that landlords are not able to use their status and exploit any legal grey areas that could abuse their tenants or any other vulnerable people in society. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, also cited a number of examples. Local authorities and police forces are aware of these issues, and they will ensure that those convicted of these offences are banned from engaging in managing or letting residential accommodation.
Amendments 292M and 292R would require the Secretary of State to review the operation of two offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003: namely, those of “exposure” and “administering a substance with intent”. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has explained, both amendments are in response to recent events. I appreciate the issues that the noble and learned Lord has raised, but I do not think that it is a requirement to put into primary legislation. I am sure he will remember from his tenure as Secretary of State for Justice that the Ministry of Justice, together with the Home Office, keeps the operation of the criminal law under review, and if there are problems they will act where necessary.
I am not sure whether it was the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, or the noble Lord, Lord Marks, who pointed out that we need to make legislation following full investigation of the facts and the consequences of making new laws, but we will continue to review the law in these areas and to ensure that it is up to date and fully equipped to protect victims of exposure and, indeed, spiking.
In relation to exposure and the police response to allegations in respect of Sarah Everard’s killer, the Committee will be aware that the first part of the inquiry announced by the Home Secretary will examine the killer’s previous behaviour and will establish a comprehensive account of his conduct leading up to his conviction, as well as any opportunities missed. We will, of course, want to learn any lessons arising from this and other aspects of the inquiry.
The recent reports of spiking—adding substances to drinks and injecting victims with needles—are concerning, and I have every sympathy with victims and anyone who might feel unable to go out and enjoy a night out for fear that they might be targeted. Any spiking constitutes criminal conduct, and the necessary offences are on the statute book. As with any crime, it falls to the police to investigate and ensure that those responsible are dealt with in accordance with the law.
The police are, of course, operationally independent, and it would not be right for me to comment on specific instances and allegations at this time when there are ongoing investigations, but they are taking it very seriously and working at pace to gather intelligence and identify perpetrators. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has already asked the National Police Chiefs’ Council to urgently review the extent and scale of the issue and is receiving regular updates from the police, as has been widely reported. This is being done using resources at local, regional and national level, including the National Crime Agency.
Finally, turning to Amendment 292T, we return to the issue of the so-called rough sex defence. Noble Lords will remember the extensive debates on this topic during the passage of the now Domestic Abuse Act 2021. In that Act, the Government responded to concerns from the public and from across the House that defendants, invariably men, argued that the death of a person, invariably a woman, was caused by “rough sex gone wrong”.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I am very much obliged to everybody who has taken part in this incredibly important debate. It is terribly unfortunate that this debate is happening at this particular time—I am very glad to see the Minister nodding. This is incredibly unfortunate when we are talking about violence against women and girls, which is the big issue in relation to this Bill. This is no attack on the Whips, but they asked prior to the dinner break that we get on as quickly as possible. It is an incredibly unfortunate way for this House to look at legislation such as this.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for his support for Amendment 284, which concerns street harassment. I take note of what he said in relation to Amendment 285 and the difference between the penalties. He was suggesting that there might be a way to amalgamate the two. That suggestion seems to be very well made, and I hope that when we come back with this on Report, we might try to follow it up. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for her support in relation to all of the amendments.
I take note of what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said in respect of the review on spiking. One is in a bit of a dilemma: there is already some degree of anxiety in relation to spiking. I think that what she was saying was, “Do not have an immediate review because that increases the anxiety,” but if you do nothing about it, the anxiety continues. My own judgment would be that one should have the review.
Separately, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, asked whether one should be worried if one is criminalising through harassment conduct including speech. I do not think that that criminalises free speech, because the sorts of speech that we would intend to criminalise under the harassment crime would be cajoling, offensive behaviour—not expressing an opinion but insulting people or demanding sex or other things of people in a wholly inappropriate way. I do not think that would give rise to the risk of an attack on free speech.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I suppose it is following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Marks, pointed out, about the broadness of that amendment. Since 2016, I have been subjected to a “fair amount of verbal”, as they say, walking around the Westminster village, from people who did not approve of my Brexit views. It was not pleasant: it was not sexual, but it was particularly obnoxious and offensive; but I do not know whether that should be against the law. I might have a moral view of it, but I would not want them all to be arrested. I am saying that, while verbal harassment is unpleasant, there is a question as to whether it should be made criminal. I just do not want everyone being locked up for things they say, even if what they say causes distress.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I completely take the noble Baroness’s point. The law has been very, very aware of that. There is a difference between people saying to you on the street, “I very much disagree with your views on Brexit” and others saying, “Why are you such a stupid, awful” and then a series of expletives, and chasing you down the street, just abusing you. The law is capable of making distinction.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
It was the latter rather than the former, I have to say.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
Then there might be a point where that becomes harassment.
I found the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, to be terrible. He sounded like a Government Minister in relation to this, thinking of excuses why not to do something about harassment, not just against women—against other people as well—but particularly against women. I was very struck by the fact that the Minister at least acknowledged that there is a real problem in relation to this. Her speech accepted that something had to be done about it, which that of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, did not.
There was a difference between the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, which was broadly to accept the proposals that I am making in Amendment 284, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, who raised two particular points in relation to street harassment. One was about the breadth of the offence, which is not limited to sexual matters. I do not think it should be limited to sexual matters. If somebody who is disabled is chased down the street by a group of people taunting them for being disabled, that should be harassment. The second point the noble Lord was worrying about was “ought to know”. The sort of conduct that we are seeking to criminalise here is where people behave in a way that is wholly unacceptable. If you say, “I did not know that it was criminal to wolf-whistle and chase somebody down the street,” the fact that you did not know that should not be any defence. Those were the only two points he made in relation to it.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way and I am sorry that he found my speech terrible. I think he missed the point. I am not suggesting that there should be no criminalisation of the sexual offences. It may well be that the behaviour about disability that he mentions is already criminal. The point I am making is that you have to be very careful to delineate offences so that they are criminalising only conduct that ought to be criminal.
The noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, with whom I do not always agree, made the distinction very well. In my understanding of the Minister’s speech, she and I were on exactly the same page. We both believe that violence against women and girls has to be treated extremely seriously. We both believe—and if I sound like a Government Minister, the noble and learned Lord knows that I am not and never have been one—that the Government have a responsibility to ensure that the ambit of the criminal law is kept within the ambit of the law that people can trust and have confidence in. They cannot do that if you randomly criminalise behaviour that ought to be without the criminal law.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I do not know where to start in relation to that intervention. I agree with the noble Lord that we need a clear delineation. We need to come forward with something. We have come forward with something that, interestingly enough, the former Lord President of the Court of Session in Scotland found completely acceptable but the noble Lord, Lord Marks, does not, for the two reasons that he has given that seem to me to be ill founded. We need to make progress in relation to it. We are not going to have an opportunity to do it. What I take the noble Lord, Lord Marks, as saying is that he will co-operate with us in trying to delineate an offence for the purposes of this Bill because something needs to be done now.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
The noble and learned Lord invites a response. I can certainly say that we will co-operate with that and I completely agree with him that the degree to which we are forced to rush this legislation inhibits progress on the kinds of proposals he is making. The difficulty is that one has to look at these offences in detail.
The noble and learned Lord suggested—rather unfairly, I think—that the two points I made against the street harassment offence he was particularly concerned with were the only two points I had. I made it absolutely clear in my speech that these were just examples. I agree with the Minister that you have to look very carefully at the whole area of new offences. That is why the reviews are important in relation to the spiking and exposure offences. You simply cannot legislate in a hurry to create new offences, as his amendment seeks to do.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I have no idea whether that was a yes or a no to my question. I assume the two points the noble Lord made were his two best points and the other two were no better than that, so I do not know where the Liberal Democrats stand in relation to that now.
In relation to the sex-for-rent offence, various points were made about whether the case of the landlady who seduces the male tenant and then does not charge rent should be an offence. I am more than happy to work out whether there should be certain defences available. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, made clear, it is something that urgently needs criminalisation—and criminalisation that does not require the victim to be either characterised as engaged in prostitution or incited to commit prostitution. The implication of the law, even if it gives the victim anonymity, is that by succumbing to the sex-for-rent proposal the person is forced to become engaged in prostitution. That is not the way the law should be. There should just be a straightforward criminalisation of it.
Of course, I am sure that the offence can be made better in terms of its drafting but it is a drafting issue, not an issue of substance between us. If we do not do it in this Bill, when will we do it? The point that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, makes is almost unanswerable: there has been one prosecution. I could not work out whether there is maybe another one coming, from what she said. That would make it two, over years, and it is wholly unacceptable that that is the position.
Baroness Hamwee
“Automated decision-making: safeguards
(1) Where data is being processed for a criminal justice purpose, section 14 of the Data Protection Act 2018 is to be read as if the amendments in subsections (2) to (7) had been made.(2) In subsection (1) after “solely” insert “or significantly”.(3) In subsection (4) after “solely” insert “or significantly”.(4) In subsection (4)(a) after “solely” insert “or significantly”.(5) In subsection (4)(b)(ii) after “solely” insert “or significantly”.(6) In subsection (5) after paragraph (a) insert—“(aa) provide to the data subject all such information as may be reasonable regarding the operation of the automated processing and the basis of the decision,”(7) After subsection (5) insert—“(5A) The controller’s powers and obligations under this section are not limited by commercial confidentiality claimed by the provider of equipment or programmes used”.”
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, changing the subject, the Data Protection Act 2018, reflecting the GDPR, in Section 14 provides that “decisions based solely”— solely—“on automated processing” are “subject to safeguards.” Such a decision
“produces legal effects concerning the data subject, or … similarly significantly affects the data subject.”
The decisions are subject to safeguards under the Act, notification of the data subject and the right of the data subject to request reconsideration or, importantly, a new decision not based on automated processing. Noble Lords will appreciate the potential importance of decisions affecting liberty and that the use of artificial intelligence may well involve profiling, which does not have an unblemished record.
This amendment would alter the term “solely,” because “solely” could mean one click on a programme. The term “significantly”, proposed in the amendment, is not the best, but I think it will serve the purpose for this evening. I do not claim that this is the best way to achieve my objective, but I did not want to let the moment pass. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee —I am not speaking as its chair—has had this issue raised a number of times. The Information Commissioner is one who has raised the issue. Elizabeth Denham, before she left the office, said it should not just be a matter of box-ticking. The guidance of the Information Commissioner’s Office provides that there should be the following three considerations:
“Human reviewers must be involved in checking the system’s recommendation and should not just apply the automated recommendation to an individual in a routine fashion; reviewers’ involvement must be active and not just a token gesture. They should have actual ‘meaningful’ influence on the decision, including the ‘authority and competence’ to go against the recommendation; and reviewers must ‘weigh-up’ and ‘interpret’ the recommendation, consider all available input data, and also take into account other additional factors.”
The Minister will, I am sure, refer to the current government consultation on data, Data: A New Direction, published in September. We dealt with this issue by putting the amendment down before then but, even so, the consultation questions the operation and efficacy of the Article 22 of the GDPR, which, as I said, is the basis for Section 14. I appreciate that the consultation will have to run its course but, looking at it, the Government seem very focused on the economic benefits of the use of data and supportive of innovation.
Of course, I do not take issue with either of those things, but it is important not to lose sight of how the use of data may disadvantage or damage an individual. Its use in policing and criminal justice can affect an individual who may well not understand how it is being used, or even that it has been used. I was going to say that whether those who use it understand it is another matter but, actually, it is fundamental. Training is a big issue in this, as is, in the case of the police, the seniority and experience of the officer who needs to be able to interpret and challenge what comes out of an algorithm. There is a human tendency to think that a machine must be right. It may be, but meaningful decisions require human thought more than an automatic, routine confirmation of what a machine tells us.
The government consultation makes it clear that the Government are seeking evidence on the potential need for legislative reform. I think that reform of Section 14 is needed. AI is so often black-box and impenetrable; even if it can be interrogated on how a decision has been arrived at, the practicalities and costs of that are substantial. For instance, it should be straightforward for someone accused of something to understand how the accusation came to be made. It is a matter of both the individual’s rights and trust and confidence in policing and criminal justice on the part of the public. The amendment would extend the information to be provided to the data subject to include
“information … regarding the operation of the automated processing and the basis of the decision”.
It also states that this should not be “limited by commercial confidentiality”; I think noble Lords will be familiar with how openness can run up against this.
Recently, the Home Secretary told the Justice and Home Affairs Committee twice that
“decisions about people will always be made by people.”
The legislation should reflect and require the spirit of that. A click of a button on a screen may technically mean that the decision has a human element, but it is not what most people would understand or expect. I beg to move.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, with the leave of the Committee, I will speak briefly. In my comments on the previous group on which I spoke—the one beginning with Amendment 278—I did not mean to suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, was filibustering. I tried to inject a little humour into proceedings, bearing in mind the wide range of issues that we discussed in the debate on that group and the length of that debate. I joked that it was beginning to look like a filibuster. I have apologised to the noble Lord but I wanted to include that apology in the official record.
We support this important amendment. As my noble friend Lady Hamwee said, Section 14 of the Data Protection Act 2018 provides some safeguards against important decisions being taken by automated processing. It allows a human review on appeal with the subject having been told, but only if the decision was “solely” taken automatically, rather than “significantly”, as my noble friend’s amendment suggests. Experience in the American criminal justice system of using algorithms shows that bias in historical decisions is replicated, even enhanced, by algorithms. We therefore support this amendment.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
As has been said, Article 22 of the general data protection regulation provides that a person has
“the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated processing, including profiling, which produces legal effects concerning him or her or similarly significantly affects him or her.”
It also provides that there is an exemption to this if the automated decision-making is explicitly provided in law. Section 14 of the Data Protection Act 2018 provides, as has been said, some safeguards based on Article 22 for cases where the law allows automated decision-making on things that may have a significant effect on a person. It provides that where a significant decision is made by automated means, the subject may request that the decision is retaken with human oversight. The section currently provides protections for a decision taken, as has once again been said, “solely” by automated means. The amendment would extend this provision to decisions taken solely “or significantly” by automated means.
The issue of automated decision-making will become, and indeed is becoming, increasingly prevalent in our lives—a point made by all sides during the passage of the 2018 Act, when we tried to add far stronger safeguards to the then Bill to prevent decisions that engaged an individual’s human rights being decided by automated means. On that basis, I am certainly interested in the points raised to extend the right of appeal to decisions that are based “significantly” on automated processing.
Finally, it is potentially concerning that the Government are currently consulting on removing Article 22 of the GDPR and the associated protections from UK law altogether. I believe that consultation closed last week. Can the Government give an indication of when we can expect their response?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for explaining this amendment, which relates to automated decision-making. Let me first say that the Government are committed to maintaining high standards of data protection and agree that the clarity of safeguards relating to automated decision-making is important. The Government are also aware of some of the difficulties faced by organisations in navigating the terminology of these automated processing provisions.
As all noble Lords have noted, to address this issue the Government are currently seeking evidence via a public consultation, which is being run by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, noted, that consultation closed only last Friday. He also mentioned Article 22. The consultation is looking at the need for legislative reform of the UK data protection framework overall, including GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018. It covers Article 22 of the UK GDPR, including organisations experienced with navigating the solely automated processing and similarly significant terminology. As I say, that consultation closed on 19 November.
In examining the responses to the consultation, the Government will consider the safeguards in respect of automated decision-making that involve personal data in the round. We will address this matter in the government response to the consultation, which we expect to publish in the spring. We also look forward to the report of the inquiry by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and will take its conclusions and recommendations into account when bringing forward our proposals for legislation. In the meantime, with apologies for being brief, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. This amendment and this concern are about far more than navigating terminology. It is actually a fundamental point, but I do not intend to keep the Committee any longer. I think I have made it clear that I am probing but, I hope, probing to an end. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Crime scenes: religious rituals or prayer
In securing a crime scene where a person within that crime scene is severely injured, such that there is a strong likelihood that they might die, there is a presumption that the constable in charge will allow entry to the crime scene to a minister of religion in order to perform religious rituals or prayer associated with dying.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is intended to probe expectations of police procedure.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
My Lords, before I get to the amendment, I think I can speak for all of us in saying that our thoughts are with the Amess family this evening.
Noble Lords who were in the Chamber for the tributes to Sir David Amess after the horrific crime that led to his shocking death will recall that at the end of her contribution the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked a question. I will quote her directly:
“Could priests be allowed to attend a crime scene so that they can give the victim their last rites, especially when they are dying?”—[Official Report, 18/10/21; col. 26.]
She posed this question, because it was reported that Sir David’s local priest had been denied access by the police to attend him in person to administer the last rites. It should be stressed that the priest accepted the instructions of the police and said prayers beyond the perimeter of the crime scene. I am not going to rehearse the events of that tragic day. None of us were there. It is not for me or any of us to second-guess the police officers on duty. I believe that the police should have the discretion to make whatever operational decisions they judge to be right, depending on the situation they are dealing with at any given time.
However, like the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and many others, I found the news that a local priest was not able to attend to a dying man surprising and, to my surprise, somewhat upsetting, especially because he was the victim of such an horrific crime. I do not believe that this is a matter for legislation. Others who participate in this debate might think differently, including those who have put their name to this amendment. But after the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and I talked, we decided to table this probing amendment to explore whether the presumption could be that at a crime scene the police constable in charge would allow entry to a minister of religion to give the last rites or other prayers associated with dying.
Perhaps now is the moment to declare that I am not a Catholic, or, I have to say, particularly religious, but like most of us who are perhaps hatch, match and despatch types, agnostics or atheists, I respect and understand how important faith is to people who practise their religion and recognise that it can become important at times of grief and loss, irrespective of the extent of our convictions. Like most other people, I think it is right that the police and all public authorities respect all religious faith, but I do think it is reasonable to expect the main elements of the Christian faith to be understood or more familiar to the police than most religions, because while religious affiliation is in decline among today’s Britons, it is still safe to say that Christianity is the main religion in the UK. That complex picture of increasing diversity and a declining majority does not mean that we should not give the importance of Christianity a plug from time to time and should not take for granted that something such as a priest being given access to a dying man at the scene of a crime will happen just because we assume that the reason why it is important is widely known and understood.
Even though there is no evidence that this was anything other than an isolated incident, having learned that something so innocent yet important was prohibited, those of us who are public figures have a responsibility to say loud and clear that we would expect it to be possible unless there are good reasons otherwise, and that we do not want the myriad sensibilities which these days the police are required to take account of to be at the expense of timeless expectations, such as access of a religious minister to someone at their most desperate hour of need.
I am grateful to the Catholic Union, which has been in contact with me since I tabled this amendment. It has been at pains to emphasise that the Catholic Church is not looking for special treatment for priests; it believes it is important for all people of faith to have access to ministers of religion when they are sick or dying. I know that the Catholic Union and the Catholic Bishops’ Conference have requested a meeting with the Minister. Notwithstanding what my noble friend has already said at Oral Questions today—I was not in the Chamber for that, but I caught up with it and know that a working group has been set up off the back of a discussion between Cardinal Nichols and the Met Police Commissioner—I reinforce that request for a meeting, so that we can discuss the appropriate steps for the Government to communicate to the police the level of importance that Parliament has afforded this matter and to receive assurance from the police that they have understood our concerns.
If it is doable, my noble friend the Minister might also like to invite a ministerial colleague from the Department of Health and Social Care, as I understand that there is growing evidence of a lack of access for priests and ministers of all faiths to care homes, hospices and some hospitals. This too was raised during Oral Questions earlier today. I realise that this would have been difficult during Covid because of lockdown restrictions, but the fear is that social norms may have been permanently uprooted and replaced by new customs and practices which, while necessary during a pandemic, are here to stay because they are more convenient for the institutions concerned.
I know from my private conversations with her that my noble friend the Minister cares deeply about this topic. In her response, I hope she is able to tell the Committee what action the Government have taken to assure themselves that, in all possible circumstances, the police will give access to a local priest or religious minister. I very much look forward to hearing what she has to say. Meanwhile, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, for allowing me to work with her on this, and to all noble Lords who have put their name to this amendment. I beg to move.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, for introducing this amendment. When I read about the terrible murder of Sir David Amess while he was attending his parliamentary surgery, I was very shocked and saddened. Later, I learned that his parish priest was denied entry by the police to the crime scene to administer the last rites. I was also shocked and surprised then. After the disgusting and tragic murder of Sarah Everard by a member of the police force, I hope they will show some contrition by understanding this sensitive amendment. We need kind, honest, well-trained police to undertake their vital work to keep everyone safe.
David Amess was an honourable, brave man. He will be remembered as an exemplary Member of Parliament. If someone else had been murdered instead of David, I feel that David would be bringing an amendment similar to this to Parliament.
The sacrament of the last rites, which is also known as extreme unction or anointing the sick, is for people who are gravely ill or close to death. It is the sacrament for the remission of sins, to strengthen and comfort the soul, and food for the journey. While not every Catholic will request the last rites to be administered by a priest, many do. It can be of utmost importance to some.
I would like to thank Alasdair Love from the Public Bills Office, who helped to put together this amendment. I am pleased that Cardinal Vincent Nichols and the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Dame Cressida Dick, have agreed to establish a joint group to study these issues. I hope that training for police officers on this matter will be included. This gives some hope. I add that the coronavirus has made this sensitive and important matter even more complicated, but problems are for solving. I hope that providing the sacrament of healing to the dying who desire it will become more available. I look forward to the Minister’s reply and thank all who support this amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, this is very sensitive territory. Dying is sacred and is part of our living. I think I am the only minister of religion here, and I have accompanied many people, including my own father, to and through their death. If you have been party to that, you will know that it is holy territory.
One could say that violent death is even more holy because of how that dying has been brought about. It seems that there needs to be religious literacy on the part of the emergency services and the police, and that the religious bodies need also to improve their literacy in relation to the nature of these events and how they are dealt with.
The noble Baroness the Minister mentioned at Oral Questions the complicating factor that this is a crime scene. The body becomes significant—I do not know what the correct terminology is, but you cannot muck about. Adding oils to the body or whatever becomes significant. But it should not be beyond the wit of man and woman to come to a reasonable accommodation.
Some 20 years ago, I came down to London to become the Archdeacon of Lambeth. I was surprised at how organised the Church of England was in south London, though not because it was south London—I had come from Leicester. There was a very well worked out arrangement with what are called ecumenical borough deans, so that each borough had a way of bringing the different faith communities together—not just Christians —working with the Met and other emergency services to ensure that, when there was a disaster, violence or violent death, there was a way of ensuring that ministers could have access to provide the ministry that the victim or their family requires.
I know that this is a probing amendment. I praise the emergency services and the police for their sensitivity in the way they have addressed this, but they are doing so within a culture that often treats religion as a private matter. I get told sometimes that Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus are all the same but just wear different clothes and have a different diet. It is not like that. Culturally, we need a deeper religious literacy—in the media, in our public institutions and public life, and in the nature of our discourse, where the language is often a giveaway.
I am glad that the Catholic Bishops’ Conference and Cardinal Nichols are having these conversations. I ask the Minister to urge that those conversations perhaps go wider and deeper, as we take our time to work out a more effective way of handling what is very sacred territory.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I have two points to raise. Following the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds, I start by saying that this is a sensitive subject. I agree with him that, even though this is the day of burial of Sir David Amess, and he is in our thoughts, I do not wish to criticise the police and their conduct on that day or talk about that incident. I want to talk at a slightly more abstract level. I appreciate that anyone in charge of the crime scene on that day faced a difficult decision and it is not for me to criticise what they did at that time; that is not my point.
My first point is to stand back and ask a more abstract question: who owns a death? The assumption, especially when a death is violent or in emergency circumstances, is that the death is owned by the state—by the police and the ambulance service primarily. They are in charge, it belongs to them and everybody else must have permission to be admitted. Even the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds sort of admitted that and gave that point away by saying that police needed better training to understand why and when they should admit people to the scene.
I would go a little further and say that the claims of the police and ambulance service have to be understood and considered in the light of other claims. Those other claims include the claims of the family and the dying person themselves as to who owns what is going on and who has a say. If we simply collapse into thinking that it is just a matter of getting better police procedure, we are conceding the major point. Of course it is in the public interest that a criminal who has killed people should be brought to justice, that their trial should be fair and the evidence preserved. But that is not the only interest in a death. It is not the only subject and there are other claims we should consider.
This afternoon, as some noble Lords know, there was an Oral Question on this topic in my name on the Order Paper. One noble Lord genuinely asked: has this subject ever come up before? I think he meant: has it ever come to a ministerial desk before? The answer of my noble friend was that she thought not—that the Amess case had brought it to public attention, but it had not really come up before. However, the real answer to that question is, “Yes, yes, yes”. It has come up before, for example at the Manchester Arena, and countless times in care homes over the last year throughout this country; it just does not rise to the level of Ministers’ desks.
Here, I have to admit that I have taken some advice from a distinguished academic specialising in emergency response, and I am told by her that this is partly because there is indeed police training on this subject, but it is primarily focused on how to explain to the families afterwards why the priest was not allowed in. That is the main focus of police training, rather than training them to think of the circumstances in which they might relinquish their claim—valid though it is—in order to respect the claims of others. That is my first point, and I think we should reflect on that.
My second point is a little more practical: we can do this better if we want to. We have done it better in the past. I was told today, again by the same distinguished academic, that there are lovely pictures from the Second World War of ARP wardens going into bomb sites—arduous and horrible work—immediately after a bombing to try to rescue the dying and recover the dead. They were accompanied by clergy with “ARP clergy” written on their tin hats, because it was assumed that these people were correctly and properly embedded in any team that was going to identify, and to find and rescue, people who were dying in the wake of a bomb. Of course, in those circumstances, there was no question of identifying the perpetrator. The perpetrator was well known and was not going to be brought to criminal trial on that basis.
I am treading on slightly uncertain ground for me here, but if you go to other countries—to Israel, for example—I am told that where there are bombs and emergency responses, there are people who are again embedded with the police. They would not be clergy because Judaism operates in a different way; there is no function, as I understand it, reserved to a clergyman in Judaism that cannot be carried out by a lay person. Although the approach to death is slightly different—it is not a question of last rites for the dying, but more a case of the proper treatment of the dead—these people are embedded with the police and it is all well understood. My noble friend Lord Moynihan, asking a supplementary question earlier today, drew attention to practice in certain US states. Again, there is much better relationship, a working relationship, between the police and what are called faith groups, in exactly these circumstances.
That illustrates the two points. First, we need to ask ourselves some radical questions about who is charge in these circumstances, and who has a claim—not just as a petitioner, merely standing at the door asking—to be there at the death. Secondly, if we want to, we can do better. That is why, today, I asked my noble friend if she would at least undertake a study that looked at practice in other countries and jurisdictions to see how they do it and what we can learn from that. I think we would benefit greatly from that. I do not ask any more.
Baroness O’Loan (CB)
I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell and Lady Masham, for tabling this probing amendment, prompted by the tragic and terrible murder of Sir David Amess and the inability of the attending priest to gain access to Sir David in what may have been his final moments. I am not sure if it is a declarable interest but, like Sir David, I am a Catholic. My support for this amendment is a product of my faith.
In almost any situation in which someone has suffered a terrible injury, there is the possibility that a crime has been committed and therefore, of course, the location of that injury will become a crime scene. Current police procedures are very specific about the management of such scenes and actions taken in those first minutes may be critical to resolve any crime that has been committed. The responsibility lies with the first officers to attend. Access to such a scene is necessarily limited. A scene log will be created to manage and record all the activities within the crime scene. However, a variety of people do gain access. They include ambulance and medical personnel, undertakers, photographers and scene of crime officers. They all have a legitimate purpose in being at the scene, but not all these purposes relate to the maintenance of the integrity and provenance of any material that may be recovered from the scene. Crime scene officers are required to ensure that persons entering the scene are wearing suitable protective clothing to prevent contamination of the scene, and to ensure that they are protected from any hazards present. So, it is possible to provide safe access for clergy that will not in any way contaminate or inhibit an investigation. The question then must be: is it desirable to do so?
Northern Ireland has seen the cost and the benefit of the presence of a priest on many occasions. The PSNI has worked with very well with clergy of all denominations. Perhaps I could remind your Lordships of the terrible murder of the two corporals, Derek Wood and David Howes, by the Provisional IRA on 19 March 1988 in west Belfast. Father Alec Reid of nearby Clonard Monastery attended them as they lay dying. His prayers—his intervention at that most savage moment—were enormously important to so many.
Two Belfast priests died during the Troubles attending their parishioners who had been shot. Father Hugh Mullan died in 1971, going out into gunfire knowing that he could be shot. Another, Father Noel Fitzpatrick, died in 1972 when accompanied by a parishioner, Paddy Butler. Waving a white handkerchief, he attempted to reach wounded men during sustained and heavy gunfire. These were brave men living their call to minister. It has long been a tradition in this country and many others that there is recognition of the value of spiritual and pastoral support. For this reason, chaplaincy services are publicly funded in many situations. However, at the present moment, attending an emergency scene as a priest can be a daunting experience, as the response of police and ambulance personnel is not certain. It depends on a decision made by someone who may have no religious faith and who may see absolutely no justification for permitting access by a priest.
To be able to receive sacramental spiritual support in the event of a death, or possible imminent death, is of profound meaning and importance to Catholics. Indeed, the support of a priest or other minister of religion is of great importance to those of other denominations and faiths. As your Lordships have heard, Cardinal Nichols and the Commissioner of the Met have agreed to establish a joint group to study the access given or refused to Catholic priests at scenes of traumatic violence and to consider whether any changes are required to the guidance issued to officers facing such a situation. This is a very positive initiative that will inform the national debate. There can be no doubt that many factors will be considered but, given that safe access, with protection against any crime scene contamination, can be secured, the primary question must be whether such access should and can be managed in a way that will enable the celebration of the sacraments at this most sacred moment, the moment when we believe a soul is passing.
Undoubtedly, any future guidance will require processes for the identification, training, et cetera, of clergy who might be granted access in such situations, but these are practical issues which can be resolved. I put my name to this amendment because I believe it can be done, and it should be done, for the support of the dying person and for their family and friends, who may be enormously comforted by the fact that a priest was allowed to attend someone at this most sacred moment.
Baroness Newlove (Con)
My Lords, I support this amendment. I appreciate the time, but as somebody who has lost somebody to a violent act and has been in a crime scene, I reiterate the words of my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. I am a Roman Catholic, but actually I am speaking about the procedures that the police had in place on that night. I was in a crime scene and I had to wait for permission to leave that crime scene and to be able to go and see Garry, who was dying. He died on the ground—he came around and then they rushed him. It may have been only minutes but it was hours in my mind. You have to wait for police procedures. I fully respect that the police are doing what they are doing, but it did feel at times that it was about the process and not about the dying man on the ground and my three daughters, who were covered in blood, being whisked away as victims of a horrendous, horrific crime. Even the priest in the hospital had to step away with anger at seeing how vicious a scene it was.
I support this probing amendment, not out of disrespect for the police officers, but I do believe that there are a lot of processes that go on. Even the Home Office is on the phone to see if things are flagging up. So, with respect, to make this procedure a lot better, we have to look at how we help victims and their families. My heart has gone out to Sir David’s family, because the shock of those seconds of losing somebody is something you will never, ever get over.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, that was one of the most powerful statements I have heard in this House, coming from someone who knows what it is like to suffer. It is a horrible tragedy that the Amess family have suffered. I echo the noble Baroness who introduced the amendment in saying that our thoughts and prayers are with them tonight, and for the repose of Sir David’s soul.
I was not sure that I could add much to this debate, but I gave it some thought and would like to share some personal observations. Thinking about the amendment, I recalled the singing of the hymn, “Abide With Me”. I have heard it sung twice recently: first, when I tuned into a vigil mass celebrated by Canon Pat Browne, the Roman Catholic priest in Parliament, on the eve of Armistice Day, and, again, when I watched the Festival of Remembrance at the Albert Hall on television. What kept coming into my mind was a line in that hymn:
“Hold Thou Thy cross before my closing eyes.”
Those words express what I believe many people of the Christian faith hope for at the end of life. They emphasise how important it is to receive spiritual comfort.
For Catholics like me, the last rites are an important and spiritual passage, a sacrament, an opportunity for reflection on past failings and for seeking forgiveness and reconciliation. I bear witness from within my own family of the peace experienced by loved ones when they were supported in their faith by a priest administering the last rites.
People of faith, whether Jews, Muslims, Christians or indeed of any other faith belief, desire the spiritual support that their faith can give them at the end of life. More widely, I think that many of my friends who have no faith would always wish to be surrounded by family and friends at the end of that life. Let us ask ourselves: who among us would not hope to leave this life comforted by family and friends or, as in the case promoted in this amendment, by a priest?
I strongly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, who made it clear that this is a probing amendment and the matter does not require legislation. Rather, it requires a little bit of common sense, perhaps education, training and research, so that the blue-light services, especially the police, recognise this matter and treat a request such as the one that has prompted the tabling of this amendment in a way that will allow a minister of religion to be with a dying person at the end.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, for bringing this amendment to the Committee, particularly in such a selfless way in that she said that she was neither a Catholic nor particularly religious. Seeing the arrival of Sir David Amess’s body at the House this evening was very moving, and our thoughts are with his family. I thank the noble Baroness for saying that she was not second-guessing the police officers at the scene of that terrible tragedy, but, as she said, there was a local priest who was not allowed to give the last rites.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds gave a very moving and sensitive speech, and I agree with much of what he said. I should declare an interest both as a Christian but not a Roman Catholic and as a police officer who served for more than 30 years. Religious faith is important to people, but so is bringing offenders to justice, particularly those responsible for offences where fatal injuries or injuries expected to be fatal are inflicted. The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, was extremely powerful in giving first-hand experience of that tension between the need to preserve evidence in order to convict those responsible and wanting to address the needs of the dying person and their family.
Securing forensic evidence is often vital to the identification and prosecution of offenders, as in the case of Sir David Amess. I agree that there needs to be a meeting of police and religious leaders—not just Roman Catholics—to ensure that both sides understand the needs of the other. Police officers should have a real understanding of the religious needs of people and the religious leaders should understand the needs of the police in these circumstances. As I said this afternoon in Oral Questions, surely there must be a role for government in bringing these two sides together, in facilitating this understanding and in ensuring that, after this understanding has been reached, operational police officers share it and know how to respond in these very difficult situations.
Interestingly, in groups of amendments that are to come, I refer to the valuable lessons from Northern Ireland to which I do not think we are paying enough attention. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for her remarks.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, what a moving and powerful debate we have had this evening. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and her noble friend will have been moved by it as well. The real challenge that has been presented to the Minister and the Government is how to capture what has been said in this Chamber tonight in relation to the practice that takes place in very difficult and challenging circumstances.
I am not going to rush this, and I am pleased that noble Lords have not rushed this either, as this is too important a debate to be rushed. In speaking to their amendment, the noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell and Lady Masham, spoke in such a way that gave respect to the awfulness of what happened with David Amess. I pay tribute to the noble Baronesses. Out of the horror of that situation, they are trying to make something positive happen in future. We have all been moved by that. The challenge for the Government is how to do something about it.
I say gently to the Minister that the system will respond in a bureaucratic, almost insensitive way, by saying, “It’s really difficult, Minister. It’s very tough to do something about this.” This is one of those situations that requires the system to respond. Human needs to speak to system and make it work, and that is not easy—it really is not.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, brought her perspective from Northern Ireland. She did incredible work there in trying to ensure that, among the terrorist atrocities, somehow or other there was comfort for the dying and bereaved, as well as the pursuit of justice. That was a beacon in that situation, and they made it happen there. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, talked about the situation in his own family. The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, made a very moving, personal statement about the horror of what happened to her and the tension between trying to comfort the dying while ensuring that the police were allowed to do their work.
The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, made a brilliant speech. I am not a lawyer so, when I spoke just now, I spoke as a politician who demands that the system works. There are brilliant lawyers on both sides of this Chamber who can dissect the law; that is not me. I say to those with legal expertise, like the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that I may not have that legal expertise, but I know what the public would expect the system and the law to do. I know how they would expect the legal system, the courts and the police to respond, and how they would expect the system to work.
The phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, used was, “Who owns the death?” Who owns it? I will talk about myself because that is easier to do. Maybe I have got this wrong, but my sense is that, if I were attacked in the street and stabbed—God forbid that this happens to any of us, but if it happened to me and I was dying—I would not want a police officer ensuring that the crime scene was not compromised. If my wife, or my children, or my grandparents were nearby, that is who I would want to come. I would not care if the crime scene was compromised; I would not.
I know that that is difficult for the police because the police will want—as, of course, in generality, we would all want—the perpetrator to be caught, put before the courts and dealt with. I am just saying what Vernon Coaker, a human being, would want: I would want my family or my friend, if they were nearby, to be allowed to come and see me and talk to me, in the way that no doubt the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds has had to do on many occasions. I would want them to give me comfort, and to give me a sense that I could say goodbye properly to my loved ones.
I do not know what that means for the law, to be honest, or what it means for the guidance, but I do not believe that it is impossible to learn, as the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, laid out, from other countries or jurisdictions, or from what is done elsewhere, to find a means of balancing those two priorities in a more sensitive way than perhaps we see at the moment. That is all that this Chamber is asking for—and that is what the Minister needs to demand from the system. The system will say, “It’s tough, it’s difficult. We need to do that, but we have also got to preserve the crime scene.” The Chamber is saying, “Yes, preserve the crime scene; yes, let’s catch the perpetrators, but not at the expense of everything else.” Let it not be at the expense of human beings knowing what is best for themselves—of individuals at the point of death being able to choose who they want to see.
I suggest that the majority of us would want our family with us, even if it meant some compromise to the crime scene. That is what I think and what I believe this Chamber is saying and demanding. The debate has been incredibly moving; people have laid out their souls. They have done it with a sense of purpose, to say to the law and the system: it needs to change; this cannot happen again. If this had happened to somebody else, I believe, as somebody else said, that David Amess would be saying the same as the rest of us. Maybe that is a fitting tribute to him as well.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker; this has been one of the loveliest debates that I have ever been privy to in this Chamber. As his family prepares to say goodbye and his body lies in the Crypt just yards away, may we all spare a moment to think about David Amess, and the tragic way in which he died. It was absolutely senseless; it has shocked us all.
As noble Lords have said, we must extend our thanks to Essex Police and the Metropolitan Police for their quick and comprehensive response, and apprehending and charging the alleged culprit. I also bring out for special mention my thanks to my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston for moving this amendment, to my noble friend Lady Newlove, whose testimony with her first-hand experience was deeply moving, and to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, who has shared such experience in this area, particularly in Northern Ireland, and how it has been dealt with day in and day out for decades.
As a Catholic, I understand the importance of extreme unction, absolution and viaticum for those close to death. However, this is not just about Catholics, of course, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds said. To answer my noble friend Lord Moylan’s point about who owns a death, we have to strike a sensitive balance. Humanity and sensitivity need to be shown to families and the person who is dying. That is the balance that we need to strike here.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend the Minister and to all noble Lords who have spoken today. First, in response to my noble friend’s last couple of points, of course I will withdraw this amendment, and I am grateful to her for agreeing to the meeting requested by the Catholic Union and for including in that meeting a Minister from the Department of Health and Social Care. Having been requested, it is important that that meeting goes ahead and provides an opportunity for a discussion on these issues from that single perspective. As she has already said, it is very encouraging that Cardinal Vincent Nichols and Dame Cressida Dick have initiated this working group to look at the issues arising from the events of that tragic day.
The debate this evening has been remarkable. I have found it quite moving. I was very unsure about tabling this amendment, if I am honest. I hesitated quite a bit about it, and then after I had tabled it, even with the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, I kept thinking, “Oh God, is this the right thing to do?”, but I thought it was important that we had an opportunity to debate these matters. As I said earlier in my opening remarks, I genuinely felt that it was important for us to stand up and say, “This is important”, rather than just accept it as something that happened and move on.
The result of that seems to have been noble Lords expressing views and raising points that I had not even thought about and elevating the importance of this issue. In addition to what the Minister has already agreed to, it would be proper for her to give further thought to how we can explore its importance even more. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, who suggested that the Government facilitate the dialogue between the various different religious faiths. As the right reverend Prelate, to whom I hope I did justice to at the beginning, said, this is not just about the Catholic faith but about how we address some of these bigger issues, which really do need to be considered. As a society, we have to make sure that the things that are really important to us as human beings and to our cohesiveness as communities are recognised and given the attention and weight that they deserve by those of us in positions of power to make these things happen.
Again, I am grateful to all noble Lords and I look forward to sitting down with the Minister and the representatives of the Catholic Union. Until then, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
“Modern slavery through control of another's property
In Section 1 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 (Slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour) after subsection (1)(b) insert—“or(c) the person occupies or exercises some substantial control over another’s home in connection with the commission of another criminal offence and the person knows or ought to know that the other person—(i) has not given consent,(ii) is unable to give free and informed consent, or(iii) has withdrawn consent.””Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would make exploitation through exercise of control over another person’s property without their consent an offence under Section 1 of the Modern Slavery Act.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
My Lords, over the six years since the Modern Slavery Act was passed, we have seen the criminals involved in modern slavery continuing to find new ways to exploit others for their own advantage. In particular, we have seen the rise in criminal exploitation of children and vulnerable adults in county lines drug dealing. Amendment 292F seeks to address the phenomenon of cuckooing, which is an example of criminal exploitation that has recently grown in prominence.
Cuckooing is the evocative name given to a situation whereby criminals take over a person’s home against their wishes and use the property to facilitate criminal activity. Most commonly, this occurs where drug dealers take over the victim’s home and use the premises to store, prepare and distribute drugs. Your Lordships may be unfamiliar with this issue, but just last month there was a national police week of action on county lines drug dealing during which the National Police Chiefs’ Council reported that 894 cuckooed properties were visited in just one week.
This is a crime affecting hundreds if not thousands of people. Victims of cuckooing are often quite vulnerable people, perhaps people with learning disabilities or mental or physical health challenges, survivors of abuse or people living with addiction. Their vulnerability is exploited by the criminals, who take advantage of them to control their home. None of us could accept that indignity, insecurity and wrongful intrusion into that most precious space, one’s home. That is what the victims endure.
It is important that the Government are tough on this area of crime. As David Cameron said in 2010, burglars
“leave their human rights at the door.”
An Englishman’s home is his castle, and if the law cannot protect him there, then who can?
Victims are targeted by criminal gangs and have their homes taken over for prolonged periods by sometimes dangerous people, putting them at significant risk of harm. One such victim was Anne. Anne had had a difficult upbringing and suffered many abusive relationships. After leaving an abusive marriage, she became a victim of cuckooing when she was given local authority housing in an area where there were many drug dealers. Due to alcohol and drugs, Anne’s physical and mental health deteriorated quickly. When the police entered her home they found a perpetrator, who was just 21 years old, lying on a sofa. He was in possession of drugs, weapons and some cash that the police found in the flat. Anne was in a very bad state but she saw the perpetrator as her protector who was keeping trouble out of the door, yet he himself punched and assaulted Anne, threatening her on multiple occasions. He told her to go to the streets to supply other dealers but she was not getting any money, just some drugs.
This is clearly a form of modern slavery. The victim’s home is taken over without their consent, and they are vulnerable and powerless to prevent it in the face of dangerous criminal gangs. Like Anne, victims are often physically and emotionally abused. Although police and prosecutors are aware of this phenomenon and determined to target the criminals, it seems that the law may not offer them adequate tools for the job. Cuckooing does not meet the definition of the human trafficking offence in Section 2 of the Modern Slavery Act because there is no travel involved. According to the CPS, however, neither does it fall within the definition of slavery, servitude or forced or compulsory labour under Section 1 of that Act unless the criminals demand labour or service from the victims in addition to occupying their home.
While it may be possible to prosecute these criminals for other offences, such as drug crimes, we cannot be satisfied with a situation that does not reflect the exploitation of a person at the heart of the offence. We must hold criminals to account for the harm done to victims of this exploitation and offer victims hope for a future free from this kind of control. There is a clear public interest in protecting the right of every person to their private and family life without having their home taken over against their will.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, for raising the important issue of cuckooing. This is when criminals, mainly drug dealers, take over the homes of vulnerable people. It is a very serious and not uncommon problem, as the figures cited by the noble Lord gave witness to. I look forward to the Minister explaining why this amendment is not necessary or what alternative the Government propose.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I note the work that the noble Lord, Lord McColl, has done on modern slavery over many years, and thank him for it. It is right for us to acknowledge that in speaking to this amendment.
I want to draw particular attention to the section of the noble Lord’s amendment that covers something that is often not recognised to the degree it should be when it comes to county lines gangs’ operations and the way cuckooing works. Proposed new sub-paragraph (ii) talks about when a person
“is unable to give free and informed consent”.
That is the crucial bit. Too often, people are asked, “Why have you allowed this to happen? Why have you let them take over your property?” It is almost as though they have given their consent. But they are sometimes so frightened that they give their consent because, if they do not, the consequences will be such that they live in fear. Somehow, the law does not seem to recognise that.
Proposed new paragraph (c)(ii) refers to someone being unable to give “free and informed consent”. This is absolutely crucial to stopping the offence of cuckooing. People sometimes appear almost as though they have left a property of their own free will, saying, “Here you are. Come into my property. Use it for drugs and county lines operations.” Then, sometimes—not always, but sometimes—the police say, “Well, what did you do about it? Why didn’t you stop it?” That does not reflect the real world. People are terrified; they are frightened. They are told, “If you don’t let us use your property and get out of it, or if you tell anyone about it, we are going to do X, Y or Z to you or to your family.” That is sometimes not recognised, but it is the crucial part of what the noble Lord’s amendment gets at. If we want to stop cuckooing, we must understand that people are coerced into giving their consent; often, the law seems to treat them as though they have given their consent willingly. If we are to stop cuckooing, we must understand the context in which it occurs. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to reflect on that.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord McColl for introducing this amendment which seeks to provide for a bespoke criminal offence to tackle what is known, as he pointed out, by the evocative name of “cuckooing”. I assure noble Lords that this Government take all forms of exploitation seriously and we are determined to tackle it. I fully sympathise with the intentions behind this amendment, as we recognise that these unscrupulous exploiters often target the most vulnerable in our society to control their homes and, as my noble friend argued most powerfully, against their will to perpetrate a range of crime types. This practice is often associated with drug dealing, which is a feature of county lines offending, but also encompasses other forms of exploitation types such as sex work, which not only devastates the lives of the victim but impacts the local community in which they live.
While I support the sentiments behind this amendment, we remain to be persuaded that a new offence is needed. There are existing powers that can be and are being used to disrupt cuckooing, including the use of civil preventive orders, such as closure orders and criminal behaviour orders, breach of which is a criminal offence. As to the criminal law, there are offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 which may be charged, specifically those under Section 4 relating to the supply of controlled drugs and under Section 8 relating to the occupier of premises knowingly permitting the production or supply of drugs from their property. The offence of participating in the activities of an organised crime group in Section 45 of the Serious Crime Act 2015 may also be relevant. That said, this is an area of the criminal law which we continue to examine.
Moreover, I am sure my noble friend would agree that were there to be a new offence, Section 1 of the Modern Slavery Act is not the proper place for it. That section deals with offences where a person exercises control over another person to hold them in slavery or servitude, or requires them to perform forced or compulsory labour. The focus is on controlling another person and not their property or belongings. Having said all that, we recognise the seriousness of this phenomenon, and we will continue to look into it and support law enforcement partners in their efforts to tackle this malicious crime. In the light of this assurance, I hope my noble friend will be content to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for being so supportive. The problem is that this is falling between two stools, and I do not quite understand how the present law is going to be used to deal with this problem. I would like some explanation; perhaps the Minister could write to me explaining exactly how the present law can and should be used. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Wasserman
“Recording the sex and acquired gender of alleged victims and perpetrators of crime
After section 44 of the Police Act 1996 insert—“44A Recording sex registered at birth and acquired gender (1) Police forces in England and Wales must keep a record of the sex registered at birth of each person who is—(a) the alleged victim of a crime reported to that police force, or(b) arrested for a crime by a member of that police force.(2) Police forces in England and Wales must keep a record of the acquired gender of each person with a gender recognition certificate who is—(a) the alleged victim of a crime reported to a member of that police force, or(b) arrested for a crime by a member of that police force.(3) Provision by a police force to the Secretary of State of any protected information recorded under subsection (2) above does not constitute an offence under section 22 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004.””Member’s explanatory statement
This amends the Police Act 1996 to ensure that the sex registered at birth and acquired gender, if appropriate, of anyone who is the alleged victim of a crime or who is arrested for a crime will be recorded by police.
Lord Wasserman (Con)
My Lords, before I say anything substantive about this amendment standing in my name and the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Morris of Yardley, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Ludford—who apologises for not being in her place this evening—I apologise to the House myself for having been unable for medical reasons to attend the Second Reading of this important Bill. However, I watched the debate with much interest, and was impressed by the wide range of issues raised and the very strong feelings with which many of those issues were discussed.
For me, the key point at Second Reading was made by the Minister, my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford, who, when introducing the debate, described the Bill as having one overarching objective; namely, to keep the public safe. I have devoted almost the whole of my professional life to advancing this objective, both in this country and abroad, and it is for this reason that I enthusiastically welcome the Bill and welcome the opportunity to speak to this amendment.
If I were asked to name the most important lesson I learned from my long experience of policing, on both sides of the Atlantic, I would say that it is the importance of accurate, timely and comprehensive information in reducing crime and making communities safe. Without such information, policing and crime reduction become simply a matter of guesswork and luck. With such information, however, our police forces and those who advise and assist them can begin to understand why, when and where crimes occur, and to develop effective evidence-based plans, strategies and tactics for tackling them. In a nutshell, the more comprehensive, consistent, timely and accurate the information available to our police forces, the more effective their efforts and the safer our communities will be.
Everyone who cares about policing and public safety recognises this, and it is this concern for consistent, accurate and comprehensive national information which accounts for Section 44 of the Police Act 1996, which gives the Home Secretary the power not only to require all forces in England and Wales to collect, maintain and return information about criminal behaviour and policing but to
“specify the form in which information is to be provided.”
It is this power to specify the form of the information to be provided that makes our national collection of criminal statistics so useful, because it permits the Home Office to issue its so-called counting rules—a set of memoranda that spell out in detail what information is to be collected by individual forces. These rules, which are kept regularly up to date to reflect new crimes and other changes in legislation, ensure that our national collection of criminal information is accurate, comprehensive and timely, rather than a set of random figures that reflect the whims and preferences of individual chief constables or police and crime commissioners.
I am making something of these Home Office counting rules because I want noble Lords to appreciate that there are already in place tried and tested arrangements to collect information from the police and to ensure that these collection arrangements are easily amended in the light of practical experience on the ground. For this reason, I very much hope at this late stage of this evening’s debate to concentrate on the main proposals of the amendment and not get bogged down in discussing the modalities of how this information should be collected. These are matters of detail for practitioners to consider in the light of the general principles that Parliament lays down for them, and not really matters for primary legislation.
Let us turn, therefore, to the heart of the amendment. It aims to fill a serious gap in our national collection of criminal statistics caused by the fact that, at present, police forces are not routinely or consistently required to collect data on the sex of all alleged victims or perpetrators of crimes. As a result, practice on the collection of sex data varies across forces and, in recent years, there has been a confusion with gender and related concepts, such as gender identity, which have been compromising the accuracy of our national data relating to sex. For example, most police forces currently allow biologically male alleged perpetrators to self-identify as women, even when charged with rape, and will then record the crime as carried out by a woman.
As is obvious from this example, our present laissez-faire attitude to how sex is recorded by forces across England and Wales has important practical consequences. It deprives policymakers and police practitioners of accurate and consistent national statistical data about discrimination on the basis of sex. It thus makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to develop effective evidence-based policies for fighting these crimes, especially crimes relating to violence against women and girls—the tackling of which is one of the Government’s principal objectives and one to which they are committed by international agreement.
The amendment aims to fix this problem by amending the Police Act 1996 to require all forces to collect, for
“each person who is … the alleged victim of a crime reported to that police force, or … arrested for a crime by a member of that police force”,
at least one and in some cases two pieces of personal information. The first is the sex registered at birth of the alleged victim or arrestee, and the second is the acquired gender of that person, provided that he or she has a gender recognition certificate—known as a GRC—which legally recognises their acquired gender in the UK. I am sure some noble Lords would wish to argue that neither of these categories is appropriate in the context of the criminal justice system and that forces should collect only information on alleged victims’ or arrestees’ gender identity as he or she declares it to be. Let me deal with this argument in stages.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, I wish to speak against this amendment, because on first reading it set off a number of alarm bells. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, that I listened carefully to what he said, to try to understand his arguments. For me, there are consequences for trans people in the amendment that no other group of people with protected characteristics would have to face in our society.
Those who have laid and spoken to amendments to this Bill against transgender people have repeatedly said there is a data collection problem. But I do not understand why the data needs to be collected by the police, given that for most crimes—whether the victim or the person being arrested, as set out in this amendment—being a trans person is just not relevant.
A parallel example would be requiring a disabled person to register with the police. I have chosen this example deliberately because, four years ago, I was physically attacked in my wheelchair at Euston station. For that incident, the wonderful British Transport Police recorded the crime as a disability hate crime—the crime, note, not the victim or the perpetrator. I would be appalled if every time I reported a crime thereafter—online fraud, for example—I had to say, “By the way, I’m disabled and I’m on your disability register.”
Rape offences are probably the only offences where the police need to know the sex of the offender because the legislation is dependent on the person’s genitals. It is otherwise not relevant information because the police do not need to know it. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, says that it is easy to add one section to the crime reporting information system—CRIS—but is it so easy? Adding just one extra category will take time and, for an existing reporting system, is usually very much more expensive than expected. Just ask the Government about the costs of adding the booster jab details to the Covid app, when they have thrown millions at IT during the pandemic.
I note that the amendment says that the above
“does not constitute an offence under section 22 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004”,
which prevents the disclosure of this protected information. On what grounds, then, is it acceptable to share people’s protected characteristics when the GRA says that is private information? In the context of personal information, can the noble Lord confirm whether the amendment complies with GDPR? I am not sure that it does, as it is not personal information that is essential to record.
I return to why the amendment was laid. Can the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, answer some questions to try to explain the aims of his amendment? I will give a hypothetical example: a trans individual is subject to house burglary or to a street mugging unrelated to their gender. This amendment requires them, if they report that crime, to out themselves to the police. Why should they suffer that loss of privacy and human rights, and to what end? Why should trans people face such a disincentive to report crimes perpetrated against them? Why is this the one group of people being singled out as victims?
I have a second example. A trans person is arrested for being drunk and disorderly but they have been assaulted and in fact are suffering from concussion, which can give the same appearance. That would be a defence to any charge but they are required to out themselves upon arrest. Why? A key tenet of our law is that accused persons are presumed innocent and mostly have the same right to privacy and liberty as all citizens. That is different for criminals. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, referred two or three times to crimes and criminals but that is not what this amendment says. It concerns anyone who is arrested. What is the position of an accused person who refuses to provide the relevant information? The amendment does not make this clear. Would they be obstructing a police officer in the execution of their duty under Section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996?
A further real concern about this amendment, if enacted, is that it would prevent trans people coming forward to report being victims of crime as they would have to out themselves. Many would not be comfortable with disclosing that sort of information. It also implies that a gender recognition certificate is what defines gender, whereas many trans people do not have or want one of them.
The fundamental problem for me, though, is the labelling and targeting of trans people, either as victims or those arrested by the police, alone of any group in our society. While this amendment may not be being instructing them at this stage to wear a pink triangle on their jackets at all times, there would be a data pink triangle. It would set them apart from every other grouping in society. It sets a dangerous and unacceptable precedent. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment and I shall speak in support of it. I very much welcome the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, presented the argument. He gave a lot of detail, and at this time of night I will not go over it again, but I want to emphasise one or two points.
To begin with, I say that I sort of understand the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and I take them seriously, because anybody who thinks that any proposed legislation will discriminate against one group deserves to be heard and to have those questions explored. But at the core of this is the collection of data; we are an immensely data-rich society at the moment. Sitting here, throughout the debates this evening, there have been so many times when the argument that has been put forward has depended on the collection of data. Whichever public service you look at, whether it be education, health, the criminal law or whatever, much of the progress that we have made over previous decades has been because we have had the ability to collect data.
I am a woman, and I think that my sex has made many advances over the past decades because people arguing for legislation that has protected women, men, people with disabilities and people who are transgender have been able to make the case only because they have been able to collect the data. Unless you have the data, you are arguing vaguely about some impression about something that might happen, so I am deeply wedded to the idea of collecting data in the formation of public policy and the advancement of political ideas.
I think that is defensible, but I do not take for granted the fact that we do not give something up in the collection of that data. I will be honest. I am trustee of a number of charities, as I think everybody in this Chamber is. Every year, when I am asked to fill in the data declaration, I see another bit of data there. Sometimes, I think “Why do they want to know that about me?”, and the one I am saying that about at the moment is sexuality. I sit there, I tick the box that says “heterosexual”, and I think “What’s that got to do with me being a trustee of this body?” But I sign it, because I think that, on the whole, that declaration of bits of information about ourselves can be put to the common public good. If we were to look at charities, without declaring that information, how do we ever get to make the argument that women, or people who are black or from ethnic minorities, or from the gay community, are not represented on charities? Whether we like it or not—and I accept that it is difficult to come to terms with it sometimes—it is about the protection, rights and freedoms of individuals. But I would never say that we do not pay a price for the collection of this data, or that we must not continuously and constantly make sure that the data we are asking to be collected is in the public policy interest.
That is why I have come to this amendment and why I very much support the arguments that have been made. What the amendment asks is simply that we collect two bits of data, among others. One is the sex at birth and the other is any gender acquired during the lifetime of the person. Without that, I do not know how we can go on to develop public policy in the pursuit of those who have committed crime and of the public duty to protect those who have been victims of crime. Unless we have the data about how many of which groups there are, they will be ignored.
I have sat through a long and very interesting debate today. My noble friend on the Front Bench said that one of the most important things about the Bill before the Committee is that it is a Bill about protecting women and girls. I do not know how you do that unless you collect the data. We have heard about county lines and knife crime. Unless we collect the data to know that many of the people who are drawn in and persuaded to commit those crimes are young men, we cannot develop a suite of policies that support them. When we collect data about sex, it is entirely proper to ask about acquired gender as well. We must not conflate the two.
The problem at the moment is that different police forces are collecting data about sex at birth and about gender acquired at some other point and then conflating the two. We do not have the sequencing of data and information across police forces in this country that can enable us to make public policy. That is what this amendment is asking. It wants to disaggregate those, as the mover of the amendment has said.
Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, for tabling this amendment, to which my name is attached, and for very clearly explaining it. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, for talking about public policy interest. That is the reason I have attached my name to this amendment.
I believe that the collection of consistent, routine and accurate data is paramount, not least in order to provide the correct services and support for both alleged victims and perpetrators of crime. But the data has to be consistent in being able to spot trends, allocate resources and make historical comparisons. In the past, the words “sex” and “gender” have been used interchangeably. This is no longer the case. A clear definition and understanding of what information is useful and appropriate to be recorded is important.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on her point that people need to feel safe and be encouraged to come forward and report crimes, but I am afraid I do not agree with her when she talks about having a register that adds people. That is not my intention in supporting this amendment. Disclosure can be an issue, and it can trigger strong emotions and fears for some vulnerable individuals. As legislators, we must understand and address such fears, but also recognise that they are not a sufficient reason to compromise accurate data collection for the benefit of everyone in society.
It is really important that data is taken in a careful and sensitive way. By carefully gathering this data, this amendment seeks partly to help policymakers in making decisions on support for alleged victims and treatment for those who commit crimes, but also to provide consistency and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris said, the best information that we can get to make good public policy.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, we clearly have a division in the House about the merits of this amendment. There are those of us who quite clearly understand the way in which the terms “sex” and “gender” are used and have been used, not just in this country—under several bits of legislation, most importantly the Gender Recognition Act—but also in international law. There is a growing body of international law in which “gender” and “sex” are well understood.
I simply want to ask the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, to explain three points that he made in his speech. First, he said that the intention of this amendment was to keep the public safe by the accumulation of accurate, appropriate, timely and consistent data. If that data is not aligned with a person’s gender identity, then it will not be accurate, so how can he ask us to accept it? Secondly, he told us that we should not get bogged down in modalities, but this is about a very practical exercise of gathering data, not in a theoretical way and not on the basis of gender-critical beliefs but actually on the basis of people’s lives. Does he not think that this is important enough detail to put into primary legislation? Finally, he said that experience has shown that it was very useful to gather information about sex and gender. Whose experience? Can he give us more information about that?
Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak briefly. I thank all noble Lords who spoke to this. It is a controversial amendment, but I think it has been spoken to quite sensitively, all things considered; maybe it is the lateness of the hour—maybe that was a good move.
I agree with the previous speaker that difficulties in the drafting of an amendment cannot just be dismissed as modalities because when we put forward draft amendments to legislation and say “must” we need to examine what that means. If, as the amendment suggests:
“Police forces in England and Wales must keep a record of the sex registered at birth of each person”,
how is that going to be executed and what will the consequences be? One has to imagine that one is a younger version of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in the police station back in the day. People turn up to record whatever it is—a theft, shoplifting, burglary, or a violent offence. How is this recording of the birth sex as well as the subsequently declared gender going to happen and what is the sanction for the “must”? That is not a modality, it is what law requires; there have to be consequences to a “must” being breached. Whatever is really going on, I know there are really sensitive issues in our society at the moment of sex and gender which we will not, I suspect, resolve tonight—we might, but maybe not.
I agreed with my noble friend about the value of data. Whether in the health service or criminal justice system, data is great, but there is another side too, which I think my noble friend acknowledged: that data will put some people off. There are other jurisdictions not far from here where people are really nervous even about declaring their race because of obvious historic reasons for being sensitive about declaring your race at the police station—let alone declaring your birth sex.
We need to see the yin and yang of this particular debate. On the one hand is the brilliant research and analysis of crime we could do if we had more and more data. But on the other hand—and this is not completely different from the previous debate—what we want is victims to come forward and criminal justice to be done. We do not want to do anything that discourages victims from coming forward and reporting crime. That includes people who feel anxious about certain sensitive pieces of information about themselves. We would never want them to put off going to the police station for fear that they say too much. For instance, a person who has been burgled thinking “Was I burgled just because I was burgled, or because I am a trans person? Do I really want to draw more attention to myself because I am an anxious victim of crime?” We need to think about that, let alone the poor old practicalities for a younger version of the very youthful-looking noble Lord, Lord Paddick.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, for introducing my speech. This amendment is designed to compel police forces to
“keep a record of the sex registered at birth”
of anyone who is a crime victim or who is arrested by the police for a crime. It also forces the police to
“keep a record of the acquired gender of each person with a gender recognition certificate”
who is a crime victim of crime or is arrested for a crime.
It also says that providing this data to the Secretary of State will not be an offence under the Gender Recognition Act. Again, I want to try to focus on the amendment and not get drawn into the wider debate, as far as I can. As the noble Baroness pointed out, I was a police officer for over 30 years, so I want to look at this from the perspective of the police.
How will a police officer know what the sex registered at birth is—thumbscrews, or a chromosome test—even without the consent of the victim? Maybe they could force victims to give their fingerprints, in the hope that they may have had their fingerprints taken before they transitioned and that will prove it—except they may have had them taken after they transitioned, and that will then show their acquired gender, so that will not work. Will victims have to produce their birth certificates before they are even allowed to report a crime? Of course, if someone has acquired a gender recognition certificate and used it to have their birth certificate changed, as they are legally allowed to do, the birth certificate will show their acquired gender, so that will not work either. How exactly will police forces keep a record of something they do not know and have no reasonable way of finding out unless the victim or perpetrator volunteers the information?
If the victim or the perpetrator is a trans person, they are legally protected from having to disclose that information. “Well, it’s obvious,” some people will say, “you can tell, can’t you?” I have met trans men who you would never believe were assigned female sex at birth and trans women who you would never believe were assigned male sex at birth. I have also, embarrassingly, been with a lesbian friend of mine, assigned female sex at birth and who has always identified as a woman, who was stopped going into a women’s toilet in a top London restaurant because they wrongly thought that she was a man.
The supporters of this amendment may say that if they do find out, maybe the police can record it—that maybe the victim is reporting a transphobic hate crime or for some other reason volunteers that information.
The second part of the amendment is totally unnecessary. Section 22(4) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 already states:
“But it is not an offence under this section to disclose protected information relating to a person if … (b) that person has agreed to the disclosure of the information”—
for example, if they are the victim of a trans hate crime—or, as stated later in the same section, at paragraph (f),
“the disclosure is for the purpose of preventing or investigating crime”.
So the police can use that information already, without fear of being prosecuted. The amendment is not necessary if the victim or perpetrator volunteers the information.
My noble friend Lady Brinton asked if she would have to declare every time she becomes a victim of crime, even if it is a burglary, that she has a disability? What about me? Will the next step be that I have to tell the police that I am gay before I can report that my flat has been broken into? For what purpose should victims have to out themselves? What if I get caught stealing a bottle of Marks & Spencer Prosecco?
Lord Paddick (LD)
It is very good, actually; I had some on Saturday. I have not tried to do that but if I did, will I have to admit being gay, as well as being a shoplifter?
In 2018, the Government tentatively estimated that there were between 200,000 and 500,000 trans people in the UK. Noble Lords have said they like data; I am going to give them lots of data. Between the Gender Recognition Act coming into force and 2018, 4,910 trans people have been issued with a gender recognition certificate. If we take the top of the range of the estimate, I make that 0.75% of the population identifying as trans and 0.0076% of the overall population having a gender recognition certificate, or less than one in 10,000 people.
Even if a victim went through the whole criminal justice process without disclosing, and without the police establishing the sex assigned to them at birth, if they were a trans woman, it would increase the number of woman victims, and if they were a trans man, it would diminish the number of woman victims, and taken together, and taking account of the total number of trans people, it would even out. Taking into account that only a fraction of them will become victims of crime who report it to the police, any difference to the crime statistics will be statistically insignificant.
The police arrest, on average, 12 in 1,000 people each year—three in 1,000 women. I do not know how many of the estimated 7.5 in 1,000 trans people are trans women and how many are trans men. Of course, if trans women are counted in the female offender figures, they will also be counted in the female population figures, boosting both the numerator and the denominator. I was never any good at mathematics—I left that to my twin brother—but it is quite clear to me that trans people are not going to make any statistically significant difference to the crime figures unless we assume, and there is no factual or statistical basis to think otherwise, that trans people are more likely to commit crime or to commit particular types of crime.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, interesting points have been raised by Members around the Chamber. I agree with my noble friend Lady Morris about the need for data; how you collect it and what data you collect is always the issue, but data is essential, obviously. We have some concerns around this amendment regarding its breadth and the inclusion of victims. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, pointed out, to require someone who is a victim of any crime, from theft of a pet up to violent robbery, to record their sex at birth in order to report that crime and interact with the criminal justice system is, in my view, quite troubling. It may have a significant effect on anybody potentially coming forward if that is an actual requirement of every single victim of every single crime. I think it may well act as an impediment to their coming forward and that is a consideration.
Having said that, there are some concerns around certain types of crime, namely rape and sexual violence. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about what the data says, but I think the impact on victims of how these crimes are recorded does vary between police forces in a way that is not helpful either. I did a little research, and I just preface this by saying that the only research I could find was a couple of years old, so if it is out of date, I apologise, but it did point to a problem around this.
“Police forces are recording suspected and convicted rapists as female if they no longer wish to identify with their male birth sex. Six forces”—
I will not name them—
“disclosed under freedom of information laws that if someone is arrested for or convicted of rape, the official record will state the gender they chose to identify themselves as. A further five forces … did not answer the question directly but each said they recorded gender in line with the person’s wishes.”
Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of what that data would tell us, I do not think it is helpful to have such a stark difference between lots of different forces. That goes to the point that my noble friend Lady Morris made, unless I misunderstood her, about the consistency of data that can be applied in a way that means we can learn from it and make judgments about it. Those are the only comments I would make on this amendment.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I thank my noble friend Lord Wasserman and others for explaining this amendment, which relates to the recording of sex and gender by the police.
The Government do not currently stipulate how a victim’s or offender’s sex at birth or gender identity must be recorded by the police. It is an operational matter for each individual police force to decide what information to record in cases where a crime is committed, taking into account any relevant national guidance. There are no other instances across government where there is a mandatory requirement to record both a person’s sex as registered at birth as well as their acquired gender, if that is applicable. The Office for Statistics Regulation is clear that it is for each department to decide when and how it collects data, including data on both sex and gender.
We have already stated that we do not plan to require biological sex to be recorded across the criminal justice system in our response to a recent petition calling for the biological sex of violent and sexual offenders to be so recorded. The response cited the practical difficulties in recording biological sex, some of which have been cited this evening, as well as the implications for those with a gender recognition certificate as justification, the implications of which I will touch on later.
I understand that this issue has received media attention, with the media reporting that there have been cases of sexual offences committed by transgender women where these crimes, which are traditionally male crimes, have been recorded as being committed by women. The Daily Mail reported that the Home Office is working with police to develop a new procedure for officers to record the sex of criminals in order to ensure that crime statistics are more accurate.
As noted in much of this reporting, the Home Office has already started work with the National Police Chiefs’ Council to promote a standardised approach—a phrase that lots of noble Lords have used—to the recording of all protected characteristics, which is currently at an early stage. Further, the Office for Statistics Regulation has issued draft guidance for the collection of sex and gender data for public bodies. This work should bring greater accuracy and consistency of the recording of sex and gender and allow the police to understand how best to collect it. I think it is through these processes, rather than legislation, that it is appropriate to improve the accuracy of the recording of sex and gender.
There are also a number of legal concerns arising from the amendment. It is unclear why the Government would need to mandate the uniform recording of this information regarding both alleged victims and perpetrators for all offences, and how this would be considered both necessary and proportionate for operational purposes. Accordingly, it could amount to an unlawful interference in someone’s right to respect for their private and family life under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The requirement might also breach Article 14 on the basis that it amounted to discrimination where transgender individuals are concerned. It is not clear, due to the scope of the amendment, that such a requirement could be lawfully justified.
I put it to the Committee that legislating so that the police routinely record this type of data is not the solution to the problem of standardising how sex and gender are recorded. Reasonable and appropriate actions are already being taken to address this that do not carry the same potential consequences as mandating it by law. There will be more to be said on this in the coming months, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, but I hope that for now I have said enough to persuade my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Wasserman (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for her comments, which were thoughtful and helpful, as ever. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that now, after midnight, I will withdraw my amendment. She need not worry about any more debate.
I recognise very much the problems of collecting this information, which is why I went out of my way to speak at some length about the Home Office counting rules. I happened to be involved with their development when I was at the Home Office. They are very much based on consultation with the National Police Chiefs’ Council, experts, think tanks, academics and so on. As I said, these rules ensure that the collection arrangements are easily amended in the light of practical experience on the ground. I have no doubt that any debate about the collection of such information will get careful consideration by the experts at the Home Office who run the counting rules, by the police, and others.
I still think that it is important to have national criminal information. One of the weaknesses of our system, as we said in an earlier debate on the Bill, is that we have 43 separate forces with 43 chief constables, each deciding how they will collect and maintain crime statistics. This is not the best way to do it. Some noble Lords will no doubt suggest a single police force, as in Scotland. That is not such a good idea, but there is another way of doing it—by Parliament setting clear rules at high level, and the experts then deciding how best to collect the information sensitively, with due respect to human rights and to people’s deepest feelings, ensuring that they take the population with them. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.