All 38 Parliamentary debates on 31st Jan 2022

Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
ADVANCED RESEARCH AND INVENTION AGENCY (WAYS AND MEANS)
Commons Chamber

Ways and Means resolution & Ways and Means resolutionWays and Means Resolution
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Advanced Research and Innovation Agency Bill (Programme) (No. 2)
Commons Chamber

Programme motionProgramme (No. 2) Motion & Programme motion
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill
Commons Chamber

Consideration of Lords amendments & Consideration of Lords amendments
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Dormant Assets Bill [Lords]
Commons Chamber

Report stage & Report stage
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Subsidy Control Bill
Grand Committee

Committee stage & Committee stage
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Health and Care Bill
Lords Chamber

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage: Part 1
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Mon 31st Jan 2022
Health and Care Bill
Lords Chamber

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage: Part 2

House of Commons

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Monday 31 January 2022
The House met at half-past Two o’clock

Prayers

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Prayers mark the daily opening of Parliament. The occassion is used by MPs to reserve seats in the Commons Chamber with 'prayer cards'. Prayers are not televised on the official feed.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]
Business Before Questions
New Writ
Ordered,
That Mr Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough Constituency of Birmingham, Erdington, in the room of John Eugene Joseph Dromey, deceased.—(Sir Alan Campbell.)

Oral Answers to Questions

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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The Secretary of State was asked—
Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
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1. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that pupils can learn safely in education settings.

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
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Mr Speaker, I am answering this question on behalf of the Secretary of State, who, as you know, is isolating having tested positive for covid over the weekend.

May I offer my condolences to the family and friends on the day of the funeral of the late Member for Birmingham, Erdington?

Our top priority remains to protect face-to-face education. To reduce transmission of covid-19, regular testing continues across education and childcare, with over 109.5 million tests completed. A further £8 million will support the in-school vaccination programme. To improve ventilation, we have delivered over 353,000 carbon dioxide monitors and purchased up to 9,000 air cleaning devices.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman
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I express my sincere condolences to the Mother of the House and the entire family on the sad loss of the Member for Birmingham, Erdington.

I am sure that my hon. Friend will join me in thanking and congratulating the headteachers and staff at all our schools—those in Harrow in particular—for keeping schools open as often as possible so that children can learn, as they should, in the classroom. Will he, however, join me in expressing the view that forcing young children to wear a face covering for seven hours a day is unfair, particularly for those who are hard of hearing?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the immense contribution of teachers, leaders and all who work in our schools. We have consistently seen 99.9% of education settings open to support face-to-face education. The Secretary of State always said that, while masks in classrooms were brought in for a period as we tried to study the impact of omicron, they should not be in place for a day longer than necessary. We no longer recommend them, and no child should be denied the opportunity to study for refusing to wear a mask.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
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Safety includes warmth. What will the Minister say to schools such as the one that contacted me this morning to say that, due to its £30,000 energy bill, it will not be able to manage its budget this year? It is very worried about what it can spend on fruit, books, salaries and all the other things that a small primary school needs. What urgent action will he take?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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We recognise some of the pressures facing schools and, indeed, all parts of the economy as a result of rising energy costs. That is part of the reason why we have provided a £4 billion increase for schools in the next financial year, which is allowing them to deliver on all the pressures that they are currently facing.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the Chair of the Education Committee, Robert Halfon.

Robert Halfon Portrait Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
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The Centre for Social Justice report published yesterday showed that more than 100,000 “ghost children” are still not returning to school for the most part, almost 800 schools are missing entirely a class-worth of pupils, and more than 13,000 children in year 11—a critical exam year—are severely absent from school. Will the Department get the proper data to find out where those children are and what is happening to them? Will it do as the CSJ has recommended and use the forecast underspend from the national tutoring programme to appoint 2,000 attendance officers to work with families to get those children back into school and learning again?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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I share my right hon. Friend’s passion for ensuring that children are in school. I have discussed with the Children’s Commissioner the designation of “ghost children”, which we both feel is somewhat unhelpful. These are flesh and blood children who deserve to be in school and have the chance to benefit from face-to-face education. I assure him that addressing attendance and ensuring that they all have the opportunity to be safely in school is a top priority.

Andrew Gwynne Portrait Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
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I, too, want children to be taught in safe spaces. That brings me yet again to the plight of Russell Scott Primary School in Denton, where, as the Minister knows, a botched £2.7 million refurbishment by Carillion has left the school with wrecked footings; a leaking roof; defective fire safety measures; inadequate drainage that floods the school with raw sewage; and playing fields that still resemble the Somme. It needs £5 million for that to be put right, or a new build. Baroness Barran wrote to me last week and basically said, “Tough—there’s no money.” That is not acceptable, is it? This is not levelling up. Let us get the purse strings opened and rebuild Russell Scott.

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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The hon. Gentleman is clearly a champion for that school—he has made the case for it many times before. I would be surprised if that was the content of my noble Friend’s letter, because a programme is due to open shortly, as he will know. Of course, we cannot pre-empt the programme, but I know that he has made a strong case for his school.

Maria Miller Portrait Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
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Ofsted’s inquiry last year into the Everyone’s Invited campaign, which exposed sexual harassment and other safeguarding concerns in schools, focused on the importance of mandatory sex and relationship education, as did Ministers. As a result of the actions of this Government, such education is mandatory for all school-age children. Will the Minister look to Ofsted to do further work on how schools are implementing relationship and sex education, because I am sure Members across the House are concerned about that?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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I know from discussions with Her Majesty’s chief inspector that this is a priority for Ofsted, and we continue to work together on it. We are also supporting teachers to build their confidence in teaching this newly required subject, which my right hon. Friend has campaigned for strenuously.

Stuart C McDonald Portrait Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
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With much more school work being carried out online and with digital literacy among pupils rising extremely quickly, what protections are the Government putting in place to ensure that online platforms are a safe learning environment for young people?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
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This is an important area of work within both the computing curriculum and the advice on keeping children safe in education. We certainly want to ensure that children are safe whether they are learning in the classroom or online.

Danny Kruger Portrait Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)
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2. What steps his Department is taking to tackle the provision of low-quality university courses.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
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I believe that every student has the right to a high-quality education. The Government are committed to tackling low-quality courses and ensuring that students and the taxpayer see a return on their investment. We have worked with the Office for Students to tackle low-quality higher education courses and it will now, for the first time, impose stringent minimum standards for drop-out rates and progression to graduate jobs.

Danny Kruger Portrait Danny Kruger
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Wiltshire has no university, as my right hon. Friend knows, but we have something better in the form of Wiltshire College, which provides a fantastic range of courses for young people and adults, including at the great agricultural campus at Lackham. Will she join me in congratulating Wiltshire College on its retention of students and the progression that they achieve? It does that by working with employers to design courses that work for the local economy. Does she encourage universities to learn from the college sector how it does that?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
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I agree completely with my hon. Friend’s assessment of Wiltshire College. Like so many further education colleges, it works closely with local businesses to ensure that residents get the skills that local employers need. That is why the Government are investing in further education. We are providing investment to transform the Lackham campus into an agritech hub, with £1.2 million of capital funding for Wiltshire College, as well as £4 million for the delivery of T-levels to ensure that learners continue to have high-class learning facilities.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
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Parents and families are rightly proud of a child or family member who secures a place at our world-class universities, yet last week many will have seen the Minister belittle their courses and hard work. Her new proposal to fine universities if they do not meet universal thresholds risks punishing universities with more disadvantaged, black and ethnic minority or mature students, who are more likely to take different routes through to higher education. Why is she putting barriers in the way of universities seeking to widen access to higher education?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
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It is a shame that the hon. Member did not pay attention to the announcement we made. Is he actually saying that we should expect the dumbing down of some courses, because those who are disadvantaged do not deserve high quality? Is that really what the Opposition stand for? Let us not forget that many universities are excelling at supporting disadvantaged students to complete courses and go on to get graduate jobs—look at Sheffield Hallam, Nottingham Trent and Kingston. I believe that every student deserves a high-quality education, and so should the Opposition.

Siobhan Baillie Portrait Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)
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It is not just the quality of courses that the Department and my right hon. Friend are working on; it is also the experience of students. Will she give an update on what steps she is taking to ensure that universities stop using non-disclosure agreements to silence the victims of sexual abuse?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
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Last week, I launched a pledge, working with the likes of Universities UK and Can’t Buy My Silence. It is very important that universities stop using non-disclosure agreements in respect of sexual assault, sexual abuse and harassment. They are morally inept and have no place on our campuses. I encourage every vice-chancellor to sign the pledge.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
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3. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of (a) student and (b) graduate finance in the context of the cost of living.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
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21. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of (a) student and (b) graduate finance in the context of the cost of living.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
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We have frozen maximum tuition fees for the fifth year in succession, saving a typical full-time student finishing a course in the 2022-23 academic year over £3,000 in fee loans for the three-year degree. Maximum grants and loans have increased by 3.1% for the current academic year, with a further 2.3% increase announced for the next academic year.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As a result of their extremely high tuition fees—the highest in the world—English students leave university with three or four times the amount of debt that Scots do. Freezing the loan repayment threshold—along with the national insurance hike and the high, rising costs of food—significantly affects young graduates. Why are the Government failing to support students and graduates during this cost of living crisis?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I said, this will be the fifth year in succession that maximum fees have been frozen, saving a full-time student finishing a course over £3,000. With median non-graduate salaries at £25,000, it is right that we work to make the system sustainable and fair for the taxpayer, including those who do not choose to attend university, especially when only a quarter of those currently starting a course will actually fully repay their loan.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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Despite what the Minister said, the fact is that the Government have broken yet another promise that the student loan repayment threshold would be frozen. That means that, when student loan repayments are taken into consideration, together with the national insurance tax hike, graduates earning just over £27,000 a year will pay a marginal tax rate of an eye-watering 42.25%. Will the Minister explain to the House why she thinks that is fair?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is important that we strike a fair deal for students, graduates and the taxpayer. Only a quarter of those who take out a loan now will fully repay it, and as the hon. Member knows, the terms of these loans are very different from commercial loans. For instance, if someone loses their job or their salary reduces, their payments will change immediately.

David Evennett Portrait Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
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Universities have a duty to provide students with value for money and they have undoubtedly been receiving a poorer education through remote learning. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, now that plan B measures have ended, every university should welcome back students to lecture halls, or provide refunds?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do agree. Online learning can be a great way to supplement and enhance learning, but let me be clear: it should not be used as a cost-cutting exercise and it should not be used to avoid utilising face-to-face provision. As the Secretary of State has outlined, we expect universities to be up-front and transparent about what students can expect, and I am personally calling vice-chancellors where we are concerned that this is not happening.

Barry Sheerman Portrait Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
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Surely the ministerial team realise that student finance is in a terrible mess, with many students struggling to pay money back and many students refused a mortgage because of their student debt. This is a serious situation. The Government have got to get a handle on it and do something about what is going on, particularly in relation to the weak and enfeebled Office for Students.

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
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Contrary to the hon. Member’s assertion, mortgages do not take into account student loans and we should put that on record. We are committed to a sustainable higher education funding model that supports high-quality provision, meets our skills gaps and maintains the world-class reputation of our higher education institutions, which is exactly why we will respond to the Augar review in full in due course.

Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
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4. What steps his Department is taking to support young people into high quality jobs.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
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We are increasing spending on skills by £3.8 billion over this Parliament—that includes growing apprenticeship funding to £2.7 billion by 2024-25—and our skills revolution will ensure that young people have the skills that they need to access high-quality jobs through skills bootcamps, T-levels, traineeships and apprenticeships.

Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore
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The Government’s apprenticeship scheme has done a fantastic job in giving young people from across Keighley and Ilkley a route to high-skilled work. I saw that at first hand when I visited Byworth Boilers and met Suzanne Rutherford, Jago Harry and Curtis Daly, all of whom made that progression through the apprenticeship scheme. What plans does my right hon. Friend’s Department have to ensure that success stories such as the Byworth Boilers apprenticeship scheme are repeated all across the country?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
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As so many companies, such as Byworth Boilers, are recognising the benefits of growing their own, there have been 130,000 apprenticeship starts in the first quarter of this academic year, up 43% on the same period last year and 3.5% higher than before the pandemic. Apprenticeships can be transformative, and I am sure that Suzanne Rutherford, Jago Harry and Curtis Daly will find that for themselves.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
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Apprenticeships are the best way to support young people into high-quality jobs, but Government data shows the total number of apprenticeships fell by almost a quarter from 2001 to 2019, even before the pandemic. The levy has been described by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development as having failed by every measure and that it shuts out small businesses and young people. Is the Minister really satisfied with this failure? Can she explain why no reforms to apprenticeships are proposed in the Skills and Post-16 Education Bill?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Our high-quality apprenticeship do not just satisfy us; they satisfy the thousands of people undertaking them. There have been 130,000 apprenticeship starts in the first quarter of this academic year, which is up by 43% on the same period last year.

Gagan Mohindra Portrait Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
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I am really proud of the many outstanding schools in my constituency, but it is important to remember that a degree is not the only route to a successful career. Does the Minister agree that apprenticeships are just as vital as university degrees, and will she arrange for the right Minister to meet me ahead of Apprenticeship Week, starting 7 February, to discuss what more can be done to promote apprenticeships?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Both I and the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), who is the Skills Minister, will be delighted to meet our hon. Friend. I absolutely agree with him on the importance of apprenticeships, and that is why we have just launched our new skills campaign, Get the Jump.

Daniel Zeichner Portrait Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the Minister realise that many of the routes into quality jobs are in those very universities that she has been disparaging through her tax on so-called low-value courses? Does she agree that we need a much better metric than salary outcomes? Just because someone is not very well paid does not mean that they are no value.

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a shame the Opposition did not read our announcement the other week. In fact, we have not based it on salaries; we have based it on graduate outcomes, so there is a range of jobs that people can progress into.

Greg Smith Portrait Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
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5. What steps his Department is taking to protect freedom of speech on university campuses.

Mark Logan Portrait Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)
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15. What steps his Department is taking to protect freedom of speech on university campuses.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
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Freedom of speech is a fundamental principle of higher education and this Government will not allow the continued self-censorship of individuals facing negative repercussions for lawfully expressed views, which is why our Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill will strengthen existing freedom of speech duties.

Greg Smith Portrait Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The University of Buckingham in my constituency has twice topped the charts for the university with the least restrictions on free speech, and under the outstanding leadership of its vice-chancellor, Professor James Tooley, proposals have been drawn up calling for new laws to ensure that academics can sue an institution or use the complaints scheme if it fails to protect them from targeted campaigns of harassment related to their academic freedom. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister work with the University of Buckingham to make that new protection a reality?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the University of Buckingham continuing to champion free speech. Our Bill contains exactly those sorts of measure to further strengthen protection for individuals who are being harassed for expressing their lawful views, and I am sure my hon. Friend will support it when it returns to this House.

Mark Logan Portrait Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)
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Will the Minister agree to visit my constituency to see the efforts of some of our schools, including Eden Boys School, which is a feeder school into the University of Bolton, to make sure we get the balance right between freedom of speech and respect for religious values?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course I will be delighted to visit Bolton North East. Maintaining free speech in our universities and political impartiality in our schools while also respecting religious values is imperative, as tomorrow’s generation shape their views.

Jane Stevenson Portrait Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con)
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6. What steps his Department is taking to promote lifelong learning and skills development.

Alex Burghart Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Alex Burghart)
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One absolute priority is to ensure that everyone can obtain the skills that they need at whatever time in life is right for them. That is why last week we launched our Skills for Life campaign, which will promote skills offers among adults, including our level 3 offer of apprenticeships and skills bootcamps.

Jane Stevenson Portrait Jane Stevenson
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was an enormous pleasure to welcome the employment Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Mims Davies), to Wolverhampton last week, when we met jobseekers of many ages who were taking part in a “car maintenance for electric vehicles” course delivered by City of Wolverhampton College as part of the Department for Work and Pensions’ sector-based work academy programme or SWAP scheme. How can the Minister help providers like that college offer more courses of that kind, which are so valuable in helping people into work?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I commend the work that City of Wolverhampton College is doing on electric vehicle maintenance. When we see excellent providers working with employers, we also see the best outcomes for students, which is why we are investing an additional £3.8 billion in further education and skills over the current Parliament.

Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The truly outstanding Northern College in Barnsley is the only adult residential college in the north of England. Can the Minister assure us that it will continue to receive its residential uplift funding in future years?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I should be delighted to look into that issue for the hon. Gentleman.

Simon Baynes Portrait Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)
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7. What steps his Department is taking to strengthen the value of technical qualifications.

Karen Buck Portrait Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

14. What estimate he has made of the number of students studying for (a) BTECs and (b) T-levels in the 2021-22 academic year.

Alex Burghart Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Alex Burghart)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are reforming technical education to support progression and meet employer needs. Our initial figures show that nearly 5,500 new students started T-levels in September last year, more than four times the number who started in 2020. We do not routinely publish take-up data on individual qualifications such as Pearson BTECs, but we will publish in June the number of students who were studying for applied general qualifications at the end of 2021.

Simon Baynes Portrait Simon Baynes
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister join me in congratulating my constituent Adele Hughes, who is working as an apprentice with Raytheon Technologies, on being awarded a bronze medal at the recent WorldSkills UK Competition, and does he agree that Adele’s remarkable achievement demonstrates the value of technical qualifications and apprenticeships?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am delighted to extend the Department’s congratulations to Adele. What we are seeing through our apprenticeships programme at the moment is the study and achievement of world-class skills in England. That is why I hope my hon. Friend, and all other hon. Members, will join me next week in celebrating National Apprenticeships Week.

Karen Buck Portrait Ms Buck
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

More than a quarter of a million students are studying BTECs, but the Government are rushing ahead with a set of changes about which parents and schools and colleges are very concerned, especially as BTECs are taken up disproportionately by the most disadvantaged families in the most disadvantaged communities. One of the issues that have been raised with me is the limited number of opportunities and qualifications that will be available under T-levels, in comparison with BTECs. Can the Minister explain how a levelling-up agenda is being advanced by a reduction in the range of opportunities available to such students?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was a central finding of the Sainsbury review, led by a Labour peer, that the vocational qualifications system should be simplified. What we are doing is creating world-class gold-standard qualifications that will give students meaningful work placements that will enable them to acquire qualifications designed by employers to give them the skills that the economy needs.

Richard Holden Portrait Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Apprenticeships and technical qualifications are extremely important to my constituents. Following the success of my jobs fair last year, I am organising an apprenticeships fair on 11 February this year. Will the Minister agree to open the fair, or to come along at some point during the day and support those young people in my constituency who are looking for an alternative route into work?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will see my hon. Friend there.

Bill Esterson Portrait Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

9. What steps he is taking to help prevent covid-19 transmission in schools.

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), the Government continue to support a number of proportionate measures to reduce the spread of covid-19, testing regularly across settings, delivering 353,000 carbon dioxide monitors and up to 9,000 air cleaning units to ensure adequate ventilation, and committing a further £8 million to support the in-school vaccination programme. All that helps to protect face-to-face education.

Bill Esterson Portrait Bill Esterson
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies advised the Government to improve ventilation in schools in May 2020. It warned the Government to prepare for winter in July 2020. More than 10 million days of in-person teaching were lost last term. More than 400,000 children were out of school with covid last week. A quarter of schools faced teacher absences of 15% or more. Air cleaning devices are more than 18 months late, and are being offered to fewer than one in 30 classrooms. Why did Ministers ignore the advice about the importance of ventilation in schools for so long?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government have consistently guided that ventilation is an important part of the measures against covid. We have had a world-leading programme of rolling out CO2 monitors so that we can identify the classrooms that need extra support in this respect. Roughly 3% of classrooms came back as needing the extra support and the Secretary of State confirmed last week that every school that meets the criteria and that has applied for that will get it, paid for by the Department for Education. This is a successful response to ensure that schools have the support that they need.

Stephen Morgan Portrait Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Vaccination is key to protecting our children’s learning in the classroom, yet 46% of 12 to 15-year-olds have still not had their first dose. One in eight children were off school earlier this month, causing more avoidable disruption to their education. Ministers missed their own target to offer every child a vaccine by October half term, so can the Minister tell the House what his vaccination target is now, and when he expects to meet it?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, vaccines have never been compulsory for children. We want children to have vaccines, but they are optional and something that requires consent. We are continuing to support the vaccine programme, and the Secretary of State announced last week that we have accepted £8 million from NHS England to accelerate that in the schools pillar. The community pillar continues to be available to children in this age group.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

10. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on future funding for education.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

At the spending review, the Government set out spending plans for the Department for Education worth more than £86 billion for 2024-25. This is an £18.4 billion cash increase over the Parliament, showing that this Government are serious about skills, schools and families across the country.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I associate myself with the remarks made by the Minister for School Standards, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) about the late Member for Birmingham, Erdington.

We now know that £2.7 billion was spent on personal protective equipment that cannot be used, and that £4.3 billion of the money that was stolen during covid through the furlough scheme and other schemes is being written off by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Does the Minister share my concern about the difference that that cash could have made in meeting the target of more than £15 billion that the Government’s own tsar reckoned was needed to catch up on the days that our children have lost in school? Will she call for a review of this?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This Government are investing £4 billion extra on schools next year and £5 billion for recovery. This Government prioritise the skills of the future and the catch-up of children in schools.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister, mindful of what she has just said, investigate how much local authorities are spending on so-called anti-racist education, which is based on deceit, spreads dismay and causes division? She will know that this is happening in Brighton and elsewhere. Will she therefore meet Don’t Divide Us—parents and teachers who are highlighting these matters—with a view to issuing guidance and if necessary taking legislative steps to prevent this kind of indoctrination?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I know that the Minister for School Standards, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), will be only too happy to meet my right hon. Friend. It is important that I remind the House that schools are subject to political impartiality, and guidance on this will be updated shortly.

Helen Hayes Portrait Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Taxpayer-subsidised childcare is increasingly being taken over by large for-profit companies quartered overseas, according to new research by University College London and the Nuffield Foundation. These companies have growing debts and charge high fees to parents while having among the lowest levels of staff qualifications and pay. They are reinvesting little in childcare provision. Does the Minister believe that repaying corporate debt represents value for money for taxpayers while families across the country struggle to access childcare that they can afford?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are investing additional funding for the entitlements worth £160 million in 2022-23. I know that the Minister for Children and Families, the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince), will be only too happy to meet the hon. Member to discuss this in detail.

Carol Monaghan Portrait Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Full membership of Horizon Europe continues to be treated as a negotiating pawn by this Government, but it is a very important source of higher education funding. When the Government talk of funding safety nets, they fail to recognise the importance of the rich collaborations that result from Horizon. When will this Government stop faffing about and make a concrete decision on the UK’s full participation in Horizon Europe?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We recognise that the ongoing delays by the EU have led to uncertainty for researchers, businesses and innovators. We have made it very clear that, in the event the UK is unable to associate with Horizon Europe, the funding that has been put aside will go to the UK Government’s research and development programmes, including those that would form partnerships internationally.

Pauline Latham Portrait Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

11. What steps he is taking to provide information in schools for at-risk children on forced marriage and child marriage.

Will Quince Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Will Quince)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The “Keeping children safe in education” statutory guidance provides a strong safeguarding framework for schools. It sets out the role that all school staff have to play in safeguarding children, including information for staff on what forced marriage actually is, as well as signposting to further help from the Government’s forced marriage unit.

Pauline Latham Portrait Mrs Latham
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My private Member’s Bill, the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Minimum Age) Bill, has its Third Reading on 25 February. We are approaching a crucial time for young people at risk of child marriage. Many child marriages happen when children are taken abroad, generally in the summer holidays and often to someone they have never met. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can raise awareness of this issue in schools so that children know they can speak out if their parents or other relatives intend to take them abroad to be married in the school holidays and so that teachers know how to report children they consider to be at risk?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

“Keeping children safe in education” is clear that all school and college staff should offer early help to children at risk of forced marriage or who are missing from education. It also signposts to detailed information developed by the forced marriage unit that outlines how schools and colleges should handle any concerns relating to forced marriage. My hon. Friend has campaigned long and hard on this issue, and of course I would be very happy to meet her.

Nick Gibb Portrait Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

12. If he will make an assessment of the effect of his Department’s July 2021 policy paper, “The Reading Framework”, on the quality of the teaching of reading in primary schools.

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for his immense work on “The Reading Framework”. The resulting framework is a vital and evidence-based tool to enable schools to teach reading effectively. It shows that phonics is just one part of becoming a fluent reader. Teachers should also focus on speaking and reading stories to foster a love of reading. English hubs tell us that the framework has been well received, and they are delivering a series of well-attended webinars to support schools to implement its recommendations.

Nick Gibb Portrait Nick Gibb
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sure my hon. Friend will have seen the recent report by two education academics challenging the Government’s focus on phonics, despite all the evidence of its success in teaching children to read. Does he agree on the importance of continuing to make the case for phonics and the importance of the Government’s clear focus on the curriculum, and on how it is taught, in helping us to complete our mission to transform the life chances of every child in this country?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

To coin a phrase, I agree with Nick. The evidence for phonics is very secure, and robust studies led by the Education Endowment Foundation show that phonics is extremely effective in teaching students to decode words. Schools do not teach phonics in isolation, and it is just one element of becoming a more fluent reader. Teachers must also focus on other elements of developing a passion for reading. My right hon. Friend is right that the evidence is very clear and that we should continue to follow it.

Vicky Foxcroft Portrait Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

13. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of access to specialist support for children with special educational needs and disabilities.

Will Quince Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Will Quince)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are conducting a review of the special educational needs and disability system. We intend to publish proposals for improvements to the system through a Green Paper for full public consultation in the first three months of this year.

Vicky Foxcroft Portrait Vicky Foxcroft
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The National Autistic Society ran a survey of parents and carers last summer, and it found that a quarter of parents waited more than three years to receive support for their child. Urgent reforms are needed for the 160,000 autistic pupils in schools in England to address the issues that have only been exacerbated by the pandemic. Can the Minister confirm that the upcoming SEND review will include robust proposals to tackle the crisis that disabled children and their families are facing?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I recognise some of the challenges the hon. Lady faces, and I give her that commitment. We prioritise children and young people with SEND and their families in our £4.9 billion education recovery plan, and those with the most complex needs continue to receive high-needs funding, which increases to £9.1 billion in the next financial year. We have allocated £42 million this financial year to fund projects that support children and young people with SEND, including £600,000 to the Autism Education Trust.

Anthony Mangnall Portrait Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As lockdown has been scaled down, I have been visiting primary and secondary schools to talk about mental health. What steps have been taken to improve mental health access facilities, including counsellors in all schools?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Backed by £9.5 million, we are offering about a third of schools and colleges in England a grant this year to train a senior mental health lead in their setting. Our £15 million wellbeing for education recovery and return programmes are in addition to the £79 million boost to children and young people’s mental health announced in March 2021 for mental health support teams in schools and colleges. My hon. Friend’s point is well made.

Kim Leadbeater Portrait Kim Leadbeater (Batley and Spen) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last week, I met a fantastic local ADHD—attention deficit hyperactivity disorder—support group, who detailed to me the many delays that children are facing in receiving diagnoses and then education, health and care plans, support and treatment. What steps are the Government taking to support pupils with ADHD and suspected ADHD so that they can learn effectively and have a fulfilling educational experience?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The SEND review is all about ensuring that pupils get the right support, in the right place, at the right time and ultimately have better outcomes, and I would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss the issue further.

Matt Hancock Portrait Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister will be aware that four out of five dyslexic children leave school with their dyslexia unidentified, so will he ensure that, consistent with the answer just given by the Minister for School Standards, the upcoming schools White Paper includes action on the universal screening and teacher training that our dyslexic pupils need and deserve?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend is a strong advocate on these issues. The SEND review and the schools White Paper will, naturally, have to go hand in glove. The School Standards Minister and I would be happy to meet my right hon. Friend to discuss this further.

Rebecca Long Bailey Portrait Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

16. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of Government support to help tackle staff absences in schools.

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Department has extended the covid workforce fund to at least the February half-term, so that schools with high absence and financial pressures can continue to access these additional funds. Other measures include asking former teachers to come forward if they are available to temporarily fill absences in schools during the spring term.

Rebecca Long Bailey Portrait Rebecca Long Bailey
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

On 20 January, more than 415,000 pupils were off school and 15% of teachers were absent, but only 9,000 air purifiers have been promised, for approximately 300,000 classrooms. The Minister lauds the Government response, yet Germany has promised to subsidise 80% of the cost of air cleaning equipment in all schools to ensure that education is not disrupted. Why is he failing to ensure that our pupils have similar levels of protection?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Very simply, because we are taking an evidence-based approach. We have listened to schools and we sent them the carbon dioxide monitors so that they can monitor where classrooms need the extra support. About 3% of classrooms needed that extra support and they are the ones where the devices are being provided entirely funded by the Department.

Andrea Leadsom Portrait Dame Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

17. What plans he has to develop apprenticeship routes for the early years workforce.

Alex Burghart Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Alex Burghart)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Department has engaged with early years employers to help them design three high-quality apprenticeships—early years educator; practitioner and lead practitioner. Since 2018-19, there have been more than 26,000 starts on early years apprenticeships. Students can also study a T-level, a new gold-standard technical qualification in education and childcare, which provides a route into either work or further study.

Andrea Leadsom Portrait Dame Andrea Leadsom
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his commitment to making sure that every baby gets the best start to life. Does he agree that by creating more of a mixed-skill workforce we will be able to provide the continuity of care that every family wants when they have a new baby?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s considerable expertise and work in this area, and I agree with her on this, which is why we are investing £153 million in training early years staff to support learning and development, and £300 million to transform Start4Life and help family services. That £300 million is going to include funding for trials for an innovative workforce, and I look forward to talking to her about that.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

18. If he will take steps to ensure a high standard for school buildings in West Dorset.

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Ensuring that schools are well maintained and support effective education is a Government priority. We have allocated £11.3 billion since 2015 to improve school buildings, and Dorset Council received £2.9 million this financial year in school condition allocations. We are delivering rebuilding projects in West Dorset, and our school rebuilding programme will transform 500 schools over the next decade.

Chris Loder Portrait Chris Loder
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Twenty-five years ago, I attended the Gryphon School in Sherborne and was schooled in temporary classrooms. I returned to the school only a few months ago, to find the same temporary classrooms, in a terrible state, being used for students today. I am making limited progress with my hon. Friend’s Department, so might he offer further support so that we can get the situation sorted out?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is right to speak up for his old school. I am concerned to hear of the issues there. I understand that he met my noble Friend the Minister for the School System and senior officials. We have been engaging with the Sherborne Area Schools’ Trust on this matter and it has received £585,000 this financial year to improve its school buildings, but I would of course be happy to meet my hon. Friend again.

Andrew Lewer Portrait Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

19. What steps he is taking to implement the recommendations of the Government’s Early Years Healthy Development Review Report, published in March 2021.

Will Quince Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Will Quince)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government are investing £300,000 million to transform “start for life” and family help services in half the council areas across England. That money will fund a network of family hubs, parent-infant mental health support, breastfeeding services and parenting programmes, and will allow local areas to publish their “start for life” offer.

Andrew Lewer Portrait Andrew Lewer
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for that support, but Camrose early years centre in Northampton South faces an emergency cut that will end its 8 am to 6 pm nursery service by 1 April this year. Will he meet me to discuss alternative solutions?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Like other maintained nursery schools, Camrose supports some of our most disadvantaged children. We have confirmed the continuation of its supplementary funding throughout the spending review period and will increase the supplementary hourly funding rate by 3.5%. I would of course be happy to meet my hon. Friend.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Michelle Donelan Portrait The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Michelle Donelan)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As was explained to the House earlier, the Secretary of State is currently isolating, but on behalf of him, myself and the Department, I thank the staff and young people and their families across education and childcare for their perseverance and dedication. Face coverings are no longer recommended in schools, colleges or universities. Regular testing, vaccinations and enhanced ventilation continue to help to reduce transmission and thereby protect face-to-face education, which is our No. 1 priority.

The Government will spend another £8 million to support the crucial in-school vaccination programme. After the delivery of more than 353,000 carbon dioxide monitors, we are following the evidence and delivering up to 9,000 air-cleaning devices to fulfil all eligible applications where there is less natural ventilation. Because this Government have got the big calls right, 99% of children are back in school and learning face to face.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The most deprived schools have seen the largest cuts over the past decade, with a 14% real-terms fall in per-pupil spending between 2009-10 and 2019-20, compared with a drop of only 9% for the least deprived schools. That is not levelling up. Is the Minister content that her Government are funnelling money away from the schools and communities that need it the most?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the hon. Member knows, this Government are determined to level up, which is exactly why we have introduced a real-terms 5% increase in school funding and have the highest ever level of pupil premium.

John Penrose Portrait John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

T3. The Secretary of State is sadly unable to be with us today, but will one of his Ministers commit him to meet me to discuss the universal accreditation scheme proposed in my recently published “Poverty Trapped” paper? It would mean that universities and colleges could give credit for knowledge and skills gained not just in formal education but in work or informal settings, to make it easier, cheaper and faster to switch careers and to level up opportunities so that everyone has a better chance to succeed.

Alex Burghart Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Alex Burghart)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his report. I very much share his sentiments about the importance of recognising prior learning. Currently, further education providers can use their own discretion when they assess learners’ experience, but we are examining how we can encourage the greater use of knowledge in respect of prior learning. I shall pass on my hon. Friend’s invitation to the Secretary of State.

Bridget Phillipson Portrait Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Today, I send my love to the family of Jack Dromey, who will be deeply missed by us all. Through you, Mr Speaker, I also send to the Secretary of State my best wishes for a swift recovery.

According to the most recent figures, the number of children who are out of school because of covid has risen by 34%. In the light of that, do Ministers not regret all the time and energy they have wasted on defending the Prime Minister rather than prioritising our children’s learning?

Robin Walker Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Mr Robin Walker)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady may wish to play party politics, but we are focused on making sure that children can safely learn in schools.

Bridget Phillipson Portrait Bridget Phillipson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If only that were true. It is a year this week since the Prime Minister appointed Sir Kevan Collins

“to oversee a comprehensive programme of catch-up”,

only for Sir Kevan later to resign in protest because, in his words, the Government’s plans risked

“failing hundreds of thousands of pupils.”

We can all see covid’s impact on children’s learning and wellbeing. Labour’s “Children’s Recovery Plan” meets the scale of the challenge we face, so when will the Minister finally put children first and match Labour’s ambition for their future?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am delighted that this Government are investing £5 billion in education recovery, and that we have a Prime Minister who two years ago delivered on a key manifesto promise to take this country out of theusb EU.

Steve Brine Portrait Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T4. The main issue in schools across Hampshire at the moment is SEND provision. There is a major increase in need as more students obtain their education, health and care plans, but a significant shortfall in personnel, even though the funding is in place. Will the Minister meet me and Steve Jones of Perins School, which is in my constituency—the dreaded Zoom is absolutely fine—so that we can talk about recruitment not only of teachers, but of student-facing support staff?

Will Quince Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Will Quince)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Let me take this opportunity to thank all those who work in mainstream and specialist SEND settings for everything that they do. Schools have the freedom to recruit support staff to match their circumstances, and last year they recruited 6,000 more. Of course, I will be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue further.

Carol Monaghan Portrait Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Times Higher Education has reported that several UK universities are providing Afghan Chevening scholars with considerable financial assistance, from food vouchers to laptops. Although that is to be commended, it is shocking that the financial contribution of the UK is not covering what these students need. What discussions has the Minister had with colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to increase the financial contribution and to properly support these Afghan students?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the contribution that universities are also making to Afghan refugees. I will meet the hon. Member to detail exactly what the Government have done to support those studying here.

Richard Fuller Portrait Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T6. Will the Minister join me in thanking the headteacher and staff of Ivel Valley School in my constituency? They are in discussions regarding a much-needed refurbishment. Will the Minister advise me on what the Government’s plan is for upgrading the estate of schools that deal with children who have severe learning difficulties?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend and I recently visited an excellent alternative provision setting—the Academy of Central Bedfordshire—and he will know that we are investing an extra £2.6 billion between 2022 and 2025 to deliver an additional 30,000 places and to improve existing provision for children with SEND. Of course, I echo his thanks.

Karl Turner Portrait Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T2. Schools in east Hull have gone above and beyond to ensure that kids keep learning during the pandemic, and I thank each and every school leader, teacher and support staff member for that, but they have been badly let down by this Government. Last term, 10,600 school days were lost as a result of this Government’s failure. When will the Minister adopt the ambitious, comprehensive schools recovery plan put forward by the shadow Secretary of State, which will do what needs to be done?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Robin Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but we have a strong plan for recovery in schools and a strong plan for attendance, which is vital. There has been unavoidable absence as a result of covid, but we must crack down on avoidable absence, which is a reason for one of my visits to the north-east last week.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We in Stoke-on-Trent are proud to be the home of Staffordshire University, but sadly it seems that cancel culture has arrived on our doorstep after the wokerati made formal complaints about criminology professor James Treadwell for tweeting that transgender women should not be allowed in women’s prisons, citing research that found that half of women in prison have experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse. Does my right hon. Friend share my despair over this tiny extreme minority, who wish to silence anyone whose opinion they disagree with, and will she join me in lending support to Professor Treadwell?

Michelle Donelan Portrait Michelle Donelan
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are a Government who are committed to ensuring free speech on our campuses, which is exactly why we are honouring our manifesto commitment and bringing free speech legislation to the House. I point out that the University of Sussex is already being investigated by the Office for Students. Other universities should take note.

Vicky Foxcroft Portrait Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T5. Research published by the Social Market Foundation has shown that students from working-class backgrounds accepted into university are more likely than their peers to hold a BTEC qualification. After failing my GCSEs as a working-class 16-year-old, it was a BTEC in performing arts that got me back into education and ultimately into university. The Minister has already been asked this question by my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), but does he agree that the decision to hastily remove BTEC funding makes a mockery of the Government’s claims to be levelling up in education?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady will have heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State extend the timescale for T-levels on Second Reading of the Skills and Post-16 Education Bill. I am sure that she would have benefited from being able to do a T-level when she was at school. It would have given her nine weeks of work placement, and she would have done a qualification designed with employers that would have led to a job in the economy.

Julian Lewis Portrait Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Given that section 406(1)(b) of the Education Act 1996 already outlaws

“the promotion of partisan political views in the teaching of any subject in the school”,

will the Government take appropriate action without further delay against Brighton and Hove City Council, which is planning to indoctrinate seven-year-olds with critical race theory?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend the Minister for Equalities has been clear that critical race theory should never be taught as that—it is a contentious political viewpoint. We are working on making sure that we update our guidance on political impartiality in school, to make that absolutely clear.

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T7. Upton-by-Chester High School in my constituency is rated good with an outstanding sixth form, but it keeps getting overlooked for replacement of its 1960s prefab buildings, which are falling apart. When will the Government announce the new guidelines, and will they look kindly on Upton High’s application?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I know that the hon. Gentleman recently met my noble Friend the Minister for the School System to discuss the case for that school. Cheshire West and Chester Council received £4.6 million in school condition allocations this financial year. Our school rebuilding programme will deliver 500 projects over the next decade, transforming education for thousands of pupils. The hon. Gentleman has made his case once again.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the Government’s commitment to lifelong learning and level 3 qualifications, but my hon. Friend the Skills Minister will know that many residents across the country will need significant help with levels 1 and 2 in order to access that offer. Will he meet representatives of West Notts College and me to discuss how we might be able to offer that support to people in Mansfield?

Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend. We are reforming level 2 qualifications. The Chancellor has announced our plans for Multiply, a new project to help people with numeracy of all ages.

Holly Lynch Portrait Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

T8. Primary and secondary schools alike are telling me that the biggest challenge they face is covid-related staff absence. Anywhere between 15% and 20% of school staff are missing. Could the Minister confirm how many volunteers have signed up to the teacher volunteer drive? What are we doing to keep teachers in schools so that we can keep them safe?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government’s covid guidance is about keeping both staff and pupils safe. On the hon. Lady’s point about volunteers, we published figures at the beginning of January that show that, at that point, responses from about a quarter of supply agencies showed that 585 teachers had come forward in answer to that call to arms. We expect the full number to be significantly higher.

Robert Largan Portrait Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

According to the latest Ofsted inspection ratings, only 55% of Derbyshire secondary schools are rated good or better, compared with a national benchmark of 80%. If levelling up is to mean anything, it must be about fixing the glaring educational inequality. Will the Minister agree to meet me and fellow Derbyshire MPs to discuss how we can improve education standards and opportunity for all in Derbyshire?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Walker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will certainly be happy to do that.

Neil Coyle Portrait Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The chatty mums network of Bermondsey and Rotherhithe recently met me to raise concerns about the cost of living and lack of affordable childcare. What assessment have Ministers made of the impact of cuts to universal credit and the new Tory tax on working mums from April?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is a substantial offer in place to support parents with childcare costs. In 2021, 328,700 children had a Government-funded early education entitlement place for 30 hours, worth up to £6,000.

Tim Loughton Portrait Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before Christmas, the Secretary of State made a statement about the tragic deaths of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson. To that grisly list has now been added Amina-Faye Johnson. He announced a review by the serious case review national panel. When will that review be published, and can the Minister assure us that it will be published in full and action will be taken?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The child safeguarding practice review panel will deliver a national independent review of Arthur and Star’s tragic deaths, to identify what we must learn, and it will report in May.

Emma Lewell-Buck Portrait Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last week, the journalist and presenter Ashley John-Baptiste shared his personal story in the BBC documentary “Split Up In Care—Life Without Siblings”. His story is not unusual, nor is it a past feature of our care system. Thousands of children removed from their families, alone and scared, are denied relationships with their siblings, despite all the evidence showing that this relationship and bond is one of the most significant and enduring. Why do this Government stubbornly refuse to make changes to the Children Act 1989 and give sibling contact for children in care?

Will Quince Portrait Will Quince
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady is right to raise this issue. We have the independent review into children’s social care led by Josh MacAlister, and I would be happy to meet her to discuss this important issue further.

Ben Spencer Portrait Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
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I recently met my school leaders and heard how, in a recent inspection by Ofsted, no account had been taken of staff absence due to covid. Can my hon. Friend confirm that Ofsted should take into account covid impact when inspecting and set that out in writing?

Robin Walker Portrait Mr Robin Walker
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I can say to my hon. Friend that having discussed this matter with Her Majesty’s chief inspector, I know that she does take such impacts into account. Ofsted is offering deferrals to schools facing particularly high levels of staff absence, but I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the case to which he refers.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Before we move on to the first statement, I assure the House that following the comments made at the start of questions—[Interruption.] I do not think that is appropriate for what I am going to say. You ought to be ashamed. I assure the House that following the comments made at the start of questions, there will be an opportunity to pay tribute to our friend and colleague the late Jack Dromey. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] That will take place on Wednesday. I am sure that hon. and right hon. Members will welcome the opportunity to pay tribute at that point.

I should inform the House that given the brief period of time available to review the report, I will be allowing the Leaders of the Opposition parties a little longer to question the Prime Minister than is usually the case. I am sure the Prime Minister may wish to take a little longer at the beginning.

Sue Gray Report

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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15:31
Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
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With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement. First, I express my deepest gratitude to Sue Gray and all the people who have contributed to this report, which I have placed in the Library of this House and which the Government have published in full today for everyone to read.

I will address the report’s findings in this statement, but first I want to say sorry. I am sorry for the things we simply did not get right and sorry for the way this matter has been handled. It is no use saying that this or that was within the rules, and it is no use saying that people were working hard—this pandemic was hard for everyone. We asked people across this country to make the most extraordinary sacrifices—not to meet loved ones, not to visit relatives before they died—and I understand the anger that people feel.

But it is not enough to say sorry. This is a moment when we must look at ourselves in the mirror, and we must learn. While the Metropolitan police must yet complete their investigation, and that means there are no details of specific events in Sue Gray’s report, I of course accept Sue Gray’s general findings in full, and above all her recommendation that we must learn from these events and act now.

With respect to the events under police investigation, she says:

“No conclusions should be drawn, or inferences made from this other than it is now for the police to consider the relevant material in relation to those incidents.”

More broadly, she finds:

“There is significant learning to be drawn from these events which must be addressed immediately across Government. This does not need to wait for the police investigations to be concluded.”

That is why we are making changes now to the way Downing Street and the Cabinet Office run, so that we can get on with the job—the job that I was elected to do, and the job that this Government were elected to do.

First, it is time to sort out what Sue Gray rightly calls the “fragmented and complicated” leadership structures of Downing Street, which she says

“have not evolved sufficiently to meet the demands”

of the expansion of No. 10. We will do that, including by creating an Office of the Prime Minister, with a permanent secretary to lead No. 10.

Secondly, it is clear from Sue Gray’s report that it is time not just to review the civil service and special adviser codes of conduct, wherever necessary, to ensure that they take account of Sue Gray’s recommendations, but to make sure that those codes are properly enforced. Thirdly, I will be saying more in the coming days about the steps we will take to improve the No. 10 operation and the work of the Cabinet Office, to strengthen Cabinet Government, and to improve the vital connection between No. 10 and Parliament.

Mr Speaker, I get it and I will fix it. I want to say to the people of this country: I know what the issue is. [Hon. Members: “No!”] Yes. [Hon. Members: “You!”] It is whether this Government can be trusted to deliver. And I say yes, we can be trusted—yes, we can be trusted to deliver. We said that we would get Brexit done, and we did. We are setting up freeports around the whole United Kingdom. I have been to one of them today that is creating tens of thousands of new jobs. We said we would get this country through covid, and we did. We delivered the fastest vaccine roll-out in Europe and the fastest booster programme of any major economy, so that we have been able to restore people’s freedoms faster than any comparable economy. At the same time, we have been cutting crime by 14%, building 40 new hospitals and rolling out gigabit broadband, and delivering all the promises of our 2019 agenda, so that we have the fastest economic growth of the G7. We have shown that we have done things that people thought were impossible, and that we can deliver for the British people. [Interruption.] I remind those on the Opposition Benches that the reason we are coming out of covid so fast is partly because we doubled the speed of the booster roll-out.

I can tell the House and this country that we are going to bring the same energy and commitment to getting on with the job, to delivering for the British people, and to our mission to unite and level up across this country. I commend this statement to the House.

15:37
Keir Starmer Portrait Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
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I would like to thank Sue Gray for the diligence and professionalism with which she has carried out her work. It is no fault of hers that she has only been able to produce an update today, not the full report.

The Prime Minister repeatedly assured the House that the guidance was followed and the rules were followed. But we now know that 12 cases have reached the threshold of criminal investigation, which I remind the House means that there is evidence of serious and flagrant breaches of lockdown, including the party on 20 May 2020, which we know the Prime Minister attended, and the party on 13 November 2020 in the Prime Minister’s flat. There can be no doubt that the Prime Minister himself is now subject to criminal investigation.

The Prime Minister must keep his promise to publish Sue Gray’s report in full when it is available. But it is already clear that the report discloses the most damning conclusion possible. Over the last two years, the British public have been asked to make the most heart-wrenching sacrifices—a collective trauma endured by all, enjoyed by none. Funerals have been missed, dying relatives have been unvisited. Every family has been marred by what we have been through. And revelations about the Prime Minister’s behaviour have forced us all to rethink and relive those darkest moments. Many have been overcome by rage, by grief and even by guilt. Guilt that because they stuck to the law, they did not see their parents one last time. Guilt that because they did not bend the rules, their children went months without seeing friends. Guilt that because they did as they were asked, they did not go and visit lonely relatives.

But people should not feel guilty. They should feel pride in themselves and their country, because by abiding by those rules they have saved the lives of people they will probably never meet. They have shown the deep public spirit and the love and respect for others that has always characterised this nation at its best.

Our national story about covid is one of a people who stood up when they were tested, but that will be forever tainted by the behaviour of this Conservative Prime Minister. By routinely breaking the rules he set, the Prime Minister took us all for fools. He held people’s sacrifice in contempt. He showed himself unfit for office.

The Prime Minister’s desperate denials since he was exposed have only made matters worse. Rather than come clean, every step of the way, he has insulted the public’s intelligence. Now he has finally fallen back on his usual excuse: it is everybody’s fault but his. They go; he stays. Even now, he is hiding behind a police investigation into criminality in his home and his office.

The Prime Minister gleefully treats what should be a mark of shame as a welcome shield, but the British public are not fools. They never believed a word of it. They think that the Prime Minister should do the decent thing and resign. Of course, he will not, because he is a man without shame. Just as he has done throughout the life, he has damaged everyone and everything around him along the way. His colleagues have spent weeks defending the indefensible, touring the TV studios, parroting his absurd denials, degrading themselves and their offices, fraying the bond of trust between the Government—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. The hon. Member for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) is my neighbour. I expect better from my neighbours.

Keir Starmer Portrait Keir Starmer
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They have spent weeks fraying the bond of trust between the Government and the public, eroding our democracy and the rule of law.

Margaret Thatcher once said:

“The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when its inconvenient…then so will the governed”.

To govern this country is an honour, not a birthright. It is an act of service to the British people, not the keys to a court to parade to friends. It requires honesty, integrity and moral authority. I cannot tell hon. Members how many times people have said to me that this Prime Minister’s lack of integrity is somehow “priced in”—that his behaviour and character do not matter. I have never accepted that and I never will.

Whatever people’s politics, whatever party they vote for, honesty and decency matter. Our great democracy depends on them. Cherishing and nurturing British democracy is what it means to be patriotic. There are Conservative Members who know that, and they know that the Prime Minister is incapable of it. The question that they must now ask themselves is what they are going to do about it.

Conservative Members can heap their reputation, the reputation of their party, and the reputation of this country on the bonfire that is the Prime Minister’s leadership, or they can spare the country a Prime Minister totally unworthy of his responsibilities. It is their duty to do so. They know better than anyone how unsuitable he is for high office. Many of them knew in their hearts that we would inevitably come to this one day and they know that, as night follows day, continuing his leadership will mean further misconduct, cover-up and deceit. Only they can end this farce. The eyes of the country are upon them. They will be judged by the decisions they take now.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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There is a reason why the right hon. and learned Gentleman said absolutely nothing about the report that was presented by the Government and put in the Library of this House earlier today. That is because the report does absolutely nothing to substantiate the tissue of nonsense that he has just spoken—absolutely nothing. Instead, this Leader of the Opposition, a former Director of Public Prosecutions—although he spent most of his time prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile, as far as I can make out—chose to use this moment continually to prejudge a police inquiry. That is what he chose to do. He has reached his conclusions about it. I am not going to reach any conclusions, and he would be entirely wrong to do so. I direct him again to what Sue Gray says in her report about the conclusions that can be drawn from her inquiry about what the police may or may not do. I have complete confidence in the police, and I hope that they will be allowed simply to get on with their job. I do not propose to offer any more commentary about it, and I do not believe that he should either.

I must say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, with greatest respect to those on the Opposition Benches, that what I think the country wants us all in this House to focus on are the issues that matter to them and getting on with taking this country forward. Today, we have delivered yet more Brexit freedoms with a new freeport in Tilbury, as I said, when he voted 48 times to take this country back into the EU. We have the most open society, the most open economy—[Interruption.] This is I think what people want us to focus on. We have the most open society and the most open economy in Europe because of the vaccine roll-out, because of the booster roll-out, and never forget that he voted to keep us in the European Medicines Agency, which would have made that impossible. Today, we are standing together with our NATO allies against the potential aggression of Vladimir Putin, when he wanted, not so long ago, to install as Prime Minister a Labour leader who would actually have abolished NATO. That is what he believes in and those are his priorities. Well, I can say to him: he can continue with his political opportunism; we are going to get on and I am going to get on with the job.

Theresa May Portrait Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con)
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The covid regulations imposed significant restrictions on the freedoms of members of the public. They had a right to expect their Prime Minister to have read the rules, to understand the meaning of the rules—and, indeed, those around them him to have done so, too—and to set an example in following those rules. What the Gray report does show is that No. 10 Downing Street was not observing the regulations they had imposed on members of the public, so either my right hon. Friend had not read the rules, or did not understand what they meant—and others around him—or they did not think the rules applied to No. 10. Which was it?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I would say, with great respect to my right hon. Friend—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. It is a very important question, and I want to hear the answer, even if other people do not.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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No, that is not what the Gray report says. [Interruption.] It is not what the Gray report says, but I suggest that my right hon. Friend waits to see the conclusion of the inquiry.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
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Can I say that it is a pleasure to follow the former Prime Minister? Perhaps her behaviour in office, like that of many who went before her, was about dignity and about the importance of the office, of respect and of truthfulness, and the Prime Minister would be well advised to focus on those who have not dishonoured the office like he has done.

We stand here today faced with the systematic decimation of public trust in Government and the institutions of the state, and at its heart a Prime Minister—a Prime Minister—being investigated by the police. So here we have it: the long-awaited Sue Gray report—what a farce. It was carefully engineered to be a fact-finding exercise with no conclusions, and now we find it is a fact-finding exercise with no facts, so let us talk facts. The Prime Minister has told the House that

“all guidance was followed completely”—[Official Report, 1 December 2021; Vol. 704, c. 909.]

that “there was no party”, covid rules were followed, and

“I believed…this was a work event”.—[Official Report, 12 January 2022; Vol. 706, c. 562.]

Nobody—nobody—believed him then, and nobody believes you now, Prime Minister. That is the crux. No ifs, no buts; he has wilfully misled Parliament.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. It would be acceptable to say “inadvertently misled the House”, but “misled the House” is not acceptable. The right hon. Member must withdraw that comment.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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The Prime Minister inadvertently told the House on 8 December that no parties had taken place and then he had to admit that they had.

It is bad enough that the Prime Minister’s personal integrity is in the ditch, but this murky business is tainting everything around it. It is the Scottish National party’s intention to submit a motion instructing the Prime Minister to publish the Gray report in full. Will the Prime Minister obey an instruction by this House to publish as required?

Amid allegations of blackmail by Tory Whips, Tory Members have been defending the indefensible. We were told, “Wait for the report.” Well, here it is, and it tells us very little—except it does state that

“There were failures of leadership and judgment by different parts of No. 10”

and that

“Some…events should not have been allowed to take place.”

That is the Prime Minister’s responsibility. If there was any honour in public life, he would resign. Where is—[Laughter.] The Prime Minister laughs. We ought to remind ourselves in this House that 150,000-plus of our citizens have lost their lives and family members could not be with them. That is a sight that people will remember: a Prime Minister laughing at our public. I extend the hand of friendship to all those who have sacrificed. I certainly do not extend the hand of friendship to the Prime Minister, who is no friend of mine.

Where is the shame? Where is the dignity? Meanwhile, the police investigation will drag on and on. Every moment the Prime Minister stays, trust in Government and the rule of law is ebbing away. With the litany of rule breaking, the culture of contempt and the utter disdain for the anguish felt by the public who have sacrificed so much, what the public see is a man who has debased the office of Prime Minister, shirked responsibility, dodged accountability and blamed his staff at every turn, presided over sleaze and corruption and tainted the very institutions of the state. In short—[Laughter.] Government Members can laugh, but the public know that this is a man they can no longer trust. He is being investigated by the police. He misled the House. He must now resign.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. The right hon. Member will have to withdraw that last comment.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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Mr Speaker, I gave the evidence of 8 December.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. You will have to withdraw “misled”.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister has misled the House.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. Unless you withdraw, I will have to stop, and that is not good. Just withdraw the words.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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I am standing up for my constituents who know that this Prime Minister has lied and misled the House.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. I will give you, as leader of the SNP, one more chance to say “inadvertently misled.” I do not want to have to throw you out, so I will give you this chance. Please.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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I will speak truth to power. That man has misled the House.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. I am sorry that it has come to this, and I am sorry that the leader of the party has not got the decency just to withdraw those words in order that this debate can be represented by all political leaders. Would you like to say “inadvertently”?

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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Mr Speaker, if the Prime Minister has inadvertently misled the House, I will state that.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Right. We will leave it at that.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for withdrawing what he just said, because he was wrong, and I am afraid that he is wrong in his analysis. I apologise, as I have said, for all the suffering that people have had throughout the pandemic and for the anger that people feel about what has taken place in No. 10 Downing Street. But I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that, for much of what he said, his best course is simply to wait for the inquiry to conclude.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Can I just say: I take it that the right hon. Member has withdrawn his remark?

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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The Prime Minister may have inadvertently misled the House—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. To help me and to help the House, has the right hon. Gentleman withdrawn his earlier comment and replaced it with “inadvertently”?

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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Mr Speaker, it is not my fault if the Prime Minister cannot be trusted to tell the truth—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. Under the power given to me by Standing Order No. 43, I order the right hon. Member to withdraw immediately from the House—

An hon. Member: He has left anyway!

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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It’s all right; we do not need to bother. Let us move on. I call Andrew Mitchell.

Andrew Mitchell Portrait Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
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Does my right hon. Friend recall that ever since he joined the party’s candidates list 30 years ago, and until we got him into No. 10, he has enjoyed my full-throated support? But I am deeply concerned by these events, and very concerned indeed by some of the things he has said from that Dispatch Box, and has said to the British public and to our constituents. When he kindly invited me to see him 10 days ago, I told him that I thought he should think very carefully about what was now in the best interests of our country, and of the Conservative party. I have to tell him that he no longer enjoys my support.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I must respectfully tell my right hon. Friend, great though the admiration is that I have for him, that I simply think he is mistaken in his views, and I urge him to reconsider upon full consideration of the inquiry.

Angela Eagle Portrait Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
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The Prime Minister told us:

“I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no covid rules were broken.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2021; Vol. 705, c. 372.]

We now know that 12 of the 16 parties are subject to a police investigation, and that of the remaining four, the Sue Gray report states that she has seen a “serious failure” to observe the high standards at No. 10. She has seen “failures of leadership” and of judgment, yet the Prime Minister thinks that is fine. Just how bad do things have to be before he takes personal responsibility, does what everybody in the country wants him to do, and resigns?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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What we are doing is taking the action that I have described to set up a Prime Minister’s department to improve the operation of No. 10. We will be taking further steps in the days ahead.

Graham Stuart Portrait Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
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The inquiry has found that there have been serious failings, and it has suggested there be changes in the way that No. 10 is run. There is a real opportunity now to take forward this new Office of the Prime Minister, and ensure that further improvements are made so that we can carry on delivering. What the Opposition parties hate is the fact that this Government will carry on delivering on the things that matter most to people, while also making sure that the governance within No. 10 is improved.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend very much. I think he is completely right. The Opposition, of course, want to keep their focus trained on this. That is their decision. I think that what people in this country want us to do is get on with the job that they want us to do. That is to serve them and, frankly, to stop talking about ourselves.

Ed Davey Portrait Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
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There is no word in the English language for a parent who has lost a child. There is no equivalent of “widow” or “orphan” for that particular horror. It is a loss that is literally beyond words; a loss that hundreds and thousands of parents have tragically experienced during this pandemic. Many had to bury their children alone; many could not be there with them at the end. Meanwhile, No. 10 partied. Does the Prime Minister understand? Does he care about the enormous hurt his actions have caused to bereaved families across our country? Will he finally accept that the only decent thing he can do now is to resign?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I do care deeply about the hurt that is felt across the country about the suggestion that things were going on in No. 10 that were in contravention of the covid rules. I understand how deeply people feel about this and how angry they are. I have apologised several times, but I must say that I think we should wait for the outcome of the inquiry before jumping to the conclusions that the right hon. Gentleman has raised. In the meantime, we should focus on the issues that matter to the British people.

Caroline Nokes Portrait Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
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The public and this House have been frustrated by having to wait for Sue Gray and the Metropolitan police, and today the Prime Minister has announced his new office at No. 10. Will he please let the House know what specific structures will be put in place so that this House can hold it accountable?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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We will make sure that there is a new permanent secretary, who will be accountable to me, and that the codes of conduct that apply both to special advisers and to civil servants are properly enforced. Of course, all of that will be properly communicated to the House. What I want to see is much better communication and links between No. 10 and the entirety of the House of Commons, and we will do that.

George Howarth Portrait Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
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Yesterday, at the local Tesco store in my constituency, a constituent asked me in a tone more in sorrow than in anger, “Why doesn’t the Prime Minister realise that as every day goes by, he damages the reputation of our country abroad, around the world?” How would the Prime Minister respond to that constituent?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I think that the reputation of our country around the world is built on the fastest vaccine roll-out in Europe, if not in all the major economies; it is built on having, therefore, the fastest growth in the G7; and it is built on our ability to bring our allies together to stand up against Vladimir Putin. That is what the world is focused on, that is what I am focused on, and that, frankly, is what the right hon. Gentleman should be focused on.

Bernard Jenkin Portrait Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
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Will my right hon. Friend first of all remind the Leader of the Opposition and the Labour party that the Back Benchers of the Conservative party need no reminders about how to dispose of a failing leader? Will he also, when he is restructuring No. 10, concentrate on the fact that the country wants results? We cannot see the point of such a large No. 10 superstructure; it needs to be slimmed down and streamlined. May I commend his determination to restore Cabinet government? It is on results, over the next few months, that he will be judged.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend very much; I think he is entirely right. I am more than content to be judged on the results we have already delivered and the results that we will deliver. I am sure that we will be greatly assisted by the reforms of No. 10 that I have outlined.

Diane Abbott Portrait Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
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Anybody who has actually read the Sue Gray report can only wonder what she was made to leave out. Will the Prime Minister give the House an undertaking that as soon as he is able, he will release the full unredacted report to this House?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Sue Gray has published everything that she can. I propose that we wait until the conclusion of the inquiry. In the meantime, I think it peculiar that the report is being simultaneously hailed as utterly damning and condemned for not having enough in it—it cannot be both.

Michael Fabricant Portrait Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
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President Truman had on his desk, “The buck stops here”, so the Prime Minister was right to apologise for the events that happened in No. 10 Downing Street. Two weeks ago, I reminded Tom Harwood that Tony Blair suggested that there should be an Office of the Prime Minister, so that it could be governed not from 70 Whitehall but from the building itself. Will the Prime Minister tell me how he envisions the office working? Will the permanent secretary be based in No. 10, controlling what civil servants do in No. 10?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think the House understands, even if many people outside do not, that No. 10 hosts more than 400 officials on a busy day. They have a huge amount to do —[Interruption.] No, they are working very hard. We need to make sure there are proper lines of authority and that we sort out the command structures, and that is what we are doing.

Hywel Williams Portrait Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
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Whatever the police decide, this update, severely limited as it is, would be enough to persuade any other Prime Minister to resign. This Prime Minister could resign and salvage a crumb or two of honour, or he may try to delay and take his party down with him. Is it not clear that, with notable exceptions, his Back Benchers should discover their backbone and sack him?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I have answered several questions like that. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to look at the report properly and to wait for the inquiry when it comes.

Mark Harper Portrait Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
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We have been asked to keep some sense of perspective, and I think that is right. The question here is whether those who make the law obey the law—that is pretty fundamental. Many, including some of my constituents, have questioned the Prime Minister’s honesty, integrity and fitness to hold that office. In judging him, he rightly asked us to wait for all the facts. Sue Gray has made it clear in her update that she could not produce a meaningful report with the facts, so may I ask the Prime Minister the question that the right hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) asked, and to which he did not give an answer? When Sue Gray produces all the facts in her full report after the police investigation, will the Prime Minister commit to publishing it immediately and in full?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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What we have to do is wait for the police to conclude their inquiries. That is the proper thing to do. People have given all sorts of evidence in the expectation that it would not necessarily be published. At that stage, I will take a decision about what to publish.

Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
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I imagine I am going to be asked to wait for something else, but was the Prime Minister present at the event in his flat on 13 November? I assume he does not need other people to tell him whether he was there. Was he at the flat event on 13 November listed in the report?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for inviting me to comment on something that is being investigated. With great respect to her, I simply will not indulge in running commentary. She will have to wait.

Robert Buckland Portrait Sir Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Saying sorry is very important, but my right hon. Friend will be judged by the deeds he undertakes as a result. I heard today a proper acknowledgment that he needs to look in the mirror, and I am glad to hear about reforms to the centre of Government that I think are overdue, as he knows from our previous conversations. Will he give me and the House an undertaking today that, in co-operating with the Metropolitan police inquiry, he will show the appropriate tone and approach that I think the British public demand of him as a person of serious purpose who is up to the level of the events? That is what we expect from him now, and that is what I will be expecting him to do.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend. I stress that I have great admiration for and full confidence in the Metropolitan police. I suggest that they now be allowed to get on with their job.

Karl Turner Portrait Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We now know that there is a criminal investigation into the party that took place on 13 November 2020 in the Prime Minister’s flat to celebrate the exit of Mr Cummings. On 8 December last year, the Prime Minister came to that Dispatch Box and flatly denied the very idea that any such party had taken place—[Interruption.] He is shaking his head. In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West), he said that it had not happened. He has inadvertently misled the House, so the very least he should do is get to that Dispatch Box and correct the record.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

No. I stand by what I said, and I would simply urge the hon. Member to wait for the outcome of the inquiry. That is what he needs to do.

Julian Lewis Portrait Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I advise my right hon. Friend publicly what I have said to emissaries from his campaign team privately? It is truly in his interest, in the Government’s interest and in the national interest that he should insist on receiving the full, unredacted report immediately, as I believe he can, and that he should then publish the uncensored version without any further delay.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, but I think extensive legal advice has been taken on this point and Sue Gray has published everything that she thinks she can that is consistent with that advice.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the police investigation were to result in serious criminal charges necessitating a criminal trial such as, I don’t know, misconduct in public office or conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, how would the Prime Minister feel about having to give evidence on oath?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not going to speculate about hypothetical questions which, frankly, I reject.

Mark Pritchard Portrait Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

You will know, Mr Speaker, that it is a very rare event for any Prime Minister to come to this House and apologise—it is a difficult thing for any Prime Minister to do—but on the issue of the police investigation, does my right hon. Friend agree that there should be due process, free and unfettered access to all at No. 10 and, most of all, no prejudging or undermining of the police inquiry before it has concluded?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I completely agree, and I must say that I am shocked by some of the commentary that I have heard from the Benches opposite about that matter today.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The thing is, this is who the Prime Minister is:

“a serious failure to observe…high standards…failures of leadership and judgment…excessive consumption of alcohol…in a professional workplace”.

“gatherings” that “should not have been” able “to take place”; staff too frightened to raise concerns; parties in his own private flat. A leopard does not change its spots, does it? Every single one who defends this will face this again and again and again, because he still will not even admit to the House that when he came to us and said, of 13 November, that

“the guidance…and the rules were followed at all times”—[Official Report, 8 December 2021; Vol. 705, c. 379]

and, on 1 December, that all the guidelines were observed, those things simply were not true. If he will not correct the record today, there is nothing accidental about this, is there? It is deliberate.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is trying to say, but I direct him again to the point made by Sue Gray:

“No conclusions should be drawn, or inferences made from this other than it is now”

time

“for the police to consider the relevant material”.

That is what the House should allow them, frankly, to do.

Shailesh Vara Portrait Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is absolutely right that over the past few weeks constituents of Members on both sides of the House have been writing to us about this hugely important issue, and I do not wish in any way to minimise its importance, but there are military bases in my constituency, and I am receiving emails from families who are concerned about their loved ones and the potential role that they may end up playing given the conflict on the Russia-Ukraine border. Opposition Members may treat this lightly, but the families of those serving in the military do not treat it lightly. Will my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that, notwithstanding the importance of the issue we are discussing at present, his Government will start to address other important matters that concern my constituents and those of Members throughout the House?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend very much indeed. I think he is completely right. Of course these matters are important, and we have to wait for the inquiry, but in the meantime the UK must play the leading role that we are playing, in bringing the west together to form a united front against Vladimir Putin, in particular with the economic sanctions that we need. That is the priority of the Government right now.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

While the Prime Minister was eating birthday cake with his pals, people were standing outside nursing home windows looking in at their loved ones dying. Contrary to what the Prime Minister has said multiple times from that very Dispatch Box, any objective reading of Sue Gray’s update makes it absolutely clear that the rules were broken multiple times in Downing Street. Will the Prime Minister continue the habit of a lifetime and keep blaming everybody else, or will he finally stand up, take responsibility, and just go?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman really has to read the report. He has to look at the report, and he must wait—[Interruption.] Everything he has said is, I am afraid, not substantiated by the report. He should look at it, and wait for the police inquiry.

Steve Baker Portrait Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Millions of people took seriously a communications campaign apparently designed by behavioural psychologists to bully, to shame and to terrify them into compliance with minute restrictions on their freedom. What is my right hon. Friend’s central message to those people who complied meticulously with all the rules and suffered terribly for it, including, I might say, those whose mental health will have suffered appallingly as a result of the messages that his Government were sending out?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I want to thank all those people for everything that they did, because together they helped us to control coronavirus. Thanks to their amazing actions in coming forward to be vaccinated, we are now in a far better position than many other countries around the world, so I have a massive debt of gratitude to all the people whom my hon. Friend has described.

Diana Johnson Portrait Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), I am not asking for a running commentary, but I would like to know whether the Prime Minister was present in his flat at the event on 13 November 2020.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am really grateful to the right hon. Lady, and I understand why people want me to elaborate on all sorts of points, but I am not going to give a running commentary on a matter that is now being considered by the authorities. I have to wait for them to conclude.

Andrew Jones Portrait Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The update from Sue Gray is, as she says herself, “extremely limited”. She says that

“it is not possible at present to provide a meaningful report”.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that at the earliest opportunity he will have the report published in full?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

What we will do is wait until the police have concluded their inquiries, and then see what more we can publish. That is what we are going to do.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the Prime Minister will recall, during Prime Minister’s Question Time on 8 December, I asked

“whether there was a party in Downing Street on 13 November”.—[Official Report, 8 December 2021; Vol. 705, c. 379.]

Now the report says, as one of the bullet points on the first page, that there was

“a gathering in the No 10 Downing Street flat”

and

“a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a special adviser”.

Did the Prime Minister inadvertently mislead this House? Will he put us all out of our agony, and stop dragging democracy through the mud?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I stick by what I said to the hon. Lady, and if she cares about democracy and due process, she should wait until the inquiry has been concluded.

Mark Jenkinson Portrait Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As a non-drinker who long ago realised that sobriety delivers everything that alcohol promised, I have noted with interest that a drinking culture exists in Downing Street and that it predates my right hon. Friend’s tenure by some decades. Does he, like me, welcome Sue Gray’s report, and will he commit to fixing that culture?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes. I thank my hon. Friend very much, and we are certainly going to take up the relevant parts of the recommendations and see that they are properly enforced within the civil service and the spad—special adviser—code.

Caroline Lucas Portrait Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The shocking incompetence of the Met police has meant that we have a report that has been gutted, but frankly, we did not need Sue Gray to tell us about the level of dishonour and deception that has infected not only Downing Street but so many Tory Members. It has been excruciating to watch so many Tory MPs and Ministers willing to defend the indefensible and calculating what is in their own party political interests rather than what is right for our country, complicit in the same decaying system where the pursuit of power trumps integrity. The Prime Minister is certainly a bad apple, but the whole tree is rotten and the whole country wants reform. Could we not make a start with a major overhaul of the ministerial code, given that its founding assumption—that it could be policed by the Prime Minister of the day, because they would be a person of honesty and integrity—has been so widely, comprehensively and utterly discredited?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are reforming the ministerial code. Of all the things that the hon. Lady has just said, I disagree with her most passionately about what she said about the police. I think they do an outstanding job, and I think we should allow them to get on with that job. I will await their conclusions.

Jackie Doyle-Price Portrait Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I draw attention to general finding number (vii) in the report, which documents that No. 10 Downing Street has morphed from a small team supporting the Prime Minister into a self-indulgent bureaucracy all of its own. I am personally tired of reading in Sunday newspapers about officials briefing against Ministers, and about delays as things are stuck in No.10. I have spoken to Ministers who are getting frustrated by this. Call me old-fashioned, but when my right hon. Friend institutes his review, could he ensure that it is Ministers who are accountable for decisions that are taken in their name, not flunkies in No.10? Will he ensure that the reforms properly restore ministerial accountability?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend very much; I enjoyed our joint trip to Tilbury this morning. Yes, I do think it is vital, as Sue Gray says, that we learn from this and that we strengthen Cabinet Government and the principle of ministerial responsibility.

Afzal Khan Portrait Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have spoken about my own experience of loss during the pandemic many times. I do not claim that my experience is special—indeed, it has been all too common—but as a member of Parliament I have a responsibility to provide a voice for the bereaved families. Make no mistake, this report is utterly damning and suggests that the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s actions were a risk to public health. How on earth can the Prime Minister stand there and justify this? Does he now accept that his actions were a complete and absolute failure of leadership and judgment?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I repeat what I have said: that I am deeply sorry for all the suffering there has been throughout this pandemic, whether of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents or anyone in the country. As to his points about what is in the report, I do not think his views are substantiated by what the report says. I think he should wait to see where the inquiry goes. That is what I propose to do.

Suzanne Webb Portrait Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Opposition Members have used up far too much parliamentary time debating this? I can assure him that the residents of Stourbridge want the Prime Minister to focus on the matters that they really care about.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Just a moment. In fairness, the Prime Minister asked to make the statement. I am not going to attack the Prime Minister for making the statement, and I certainly would not expect it from his own side.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to say how strongly I agree, none the less, with my hon. Friend, because, yes, of course it is vital that we make this statement, that we learn from Sue Gray’s report and that we take action, which is what the Government are doing, but it is also vital, frankly, that we get on with the people’s priorities. That is what this Government are also doing.

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Just to summarise, we have had, “I didn’t know there was a party”, “There wasn’t a party, it was a work meeting” and, “There was a party but I wasn’t there”. The Prime Minister mentioned international negotiations. Why should anybody—any country, any Government—with whom we enter into negotiations deal at all with, and take any kind of word from, a Government who clearly act with mendacity aforethought from the start?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This is the Government who took this country out of the European Union—did what was necessary—and who are bringing the west together to stand up against Vladimir Putin. Those are the important considerations. As for the rest of what the hon. Gentleman said, it is nonsense but he should wait for the police inquiry.

Holly Mumby-Croft Portrait Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My constituents in Scunthorpe are very keen to see industrial energy prices fixed, so will the Prime Minister reassure me that he will not be distracted by any of this, and that he will get on with the job and come forward with a solution to that issue?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, my hon. Friend is completely right; we need to address not only consumer energy costs, but business and industrial energy costs, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be bringing forward a package of measures as soon as he can.

Kirsten Oswald Portrait Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

During his statement, the Prime Minister kept referring to “we” when he talked about the sorry saga that Sue Gray has reported, but it is his rules, his rule-breaking and his inability to tell the truth about it that is the issue. He is the Prime Minister. Does he not take any personal responsibility at all for this disgraceful fiasco?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have taken full responsibility throughout the pandemic.

Richard Fuller Portrait Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As with the report on Owen Paterson, I felt it was important to support the process and read the report, because it is important to separate fact from allegation, and to know what the report actually says, rather than what I would wish it to say. Those are two lessons that the Leader of the Opposition needs to learn. I promised my constituents that I would ask the Prime Minister to say that he would support the recommendations in the report, and there are four. One is that

“every Government Department has a clear and robust policy in place covering the consumption of alcohol in the workplace.”

Another is that access to the garden,

“including for meetings, should be by invitation only and in a controlled environment.”

A third is:

“There should be easier ways for staff to raise such concerns”.

That is basically about whistleblowing. Another is:

“Too much responsibility and expectation is placed on the senior official whose principal function is the direct support of the Prime Minister.”

Those are the facts and the findings of the report. Will the Prime Minister accept them in full?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I do. As I have said to the House earlier, I accept the findings of the report in full—the general findings—and we are immediately taking steps to implement the changes.

Maria Eagle Portrait Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister has just said that he accepts the findings of the report. One of them says:

“There were failures of leadership and judgment by different parts of No 10 and the Cabinet Office at different times.”

He provides the political leadership and the political judgment at No. 10. Does he accept his own personal wrongdoing and failings in this regard?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Not only have I accepted full responsibility throughout, but I have apologised repeatedly to the House for any misjudgments that I may have made myself, but, again, I must urge the hon. Lady to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry.

Aaron Bell Portrait Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It seems that a lot of people attended events in May 2020. The one I recall attending was my grandmother’s funeral. She was a wonderful woman. As well as her love for her family, she served her community as a councillor and she served Dartford Conservative Association loyally for many years. I drove for three hours from Staffordshire to Kent. There were only 10 people at the funeral; many people who loved her had to watch online. I did not hug my siblings. I did not hug my parents. I gave a eulogy and afterwards I did not even go into her house for a cup of tea; I drove back, for three hours, from Kent to Staffordshire. Does the Prime Minister think I am a fool?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

No. I want to thank my hon. Friend and say how deeply I sympathise with him and his family for their loss. All I can say, again, is that I am very, very sorry for misjudgments that may have been made by me or anybody else in No.10 and the Cabinet Office. I can only ask him respectfully to look at what Sue Gray has said and to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry.

Clive Efford Portrait Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is important that this House can trust what Ministers tell us from that Dispatch Box. On 8 December, regarding events at No.10 Downing Street, the Prime Minister said:

“I repeat that I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no covid rules were broken. That is what I have been repeatedly assured.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2021; Vol. 705, c. 372.]

The people who gave him those assurances led to his inadvertently misleading the House. Have those people faced any disciplinary proceedings?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, the hon. Gentleman needs, I am afraid, to await the conclusions of the police inquiry, because the premise of his question may or may not be substantiated. What I can tell the House is that, yes, as I have said before, there will certainly be changes in the way that we do things, and changes in No.10.

Duncan Baker Portrait Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

North Norfolk consistently had some of the lowest levels of infection in the country; we followed the rules. Many of my constituents have been incensed by this matter, and the damage it is doing to the Government is enormous. It is about integrity and trust. May I ask again, because people want to know, how can the Prime Minister satisfy my constituents and assure me that full accountability and transparency on the findings of the final Gray report will swiftly follow?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will do whatever I can to ensure that the House has as much clarity as possible. There are legal issues that we face about some of the testimony that has been given, but, in the meantime, what Sue Gray wants us to do is to wait for the conclusion of the investigation and to see where that goes, and to support the police in their work.

Wera Hobhouse Portrait Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the Prime Minister need somebody else to tell him whether he was there, or that he is there now?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I refer the hon. Lady to the answer that I have already given.

Simon Baynes Portrait Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We all recognise that No. 10 Downing Street is an unusual amalgam of workplace, office space and private home. What steps will the Prime Minister take to ensure that the lines between each of them are made clearer in the future?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend will see reference to that very problem in Sue Gray’s report and we will take steps to clarify things and make sure that there is greater transparency in the lines of command.

Stephen Timms Portrait Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the Prime Minister recognise that repeatedly making statements, including from the Dispatch Box, which turn out subsequently to be untrue, is a serious problem, or does he not recognise that?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I really think the right hon. Gentleman is prejudging things, and he should wait for the conclusion of the inquiries.

Paul Holmes Portrait Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend has come to this House as a first step in responding to the report. He has also rightly outlined that the relationship between No. 10 and this House needs to improve. Will he reassure me that he will continue to come to the House to update us on the implementation of the recommendations in Sue Gray’s report and say how that will happen?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am only too happy to assure the House that we intend to make changes starting from now and that I will keep the House updated.

Paula Barker Portrait Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

When there is a failure of leadership and an inappropriate culture in an organisation, the person at the top should go. This outrageous debacle has not happened in spite of the Prime Minister; it has happened because of him. Will he now do the right thing and resign?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The answer is no, because I am going to wait for the conclusions of the inquiry before any of the assertions that the hon. Lady has made can be established.

Greg Smith Portrait Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement, particularly the acknowledge- ment of the enormous sacrifice that many British people went through. As somebody who was unable to say goodbye to their grandparents this time last year, I welcome his sincere apology. As we wait for the Metropolitan police’s findings, can he give me a categoric assurance that it will be full speed ahead on fixing the Northern Ireland protocol, standing up for our friends in Ukraine and fixing the cost of living crisis?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes. That is exactly what the Government are going to do and we will not be distracted for one minute.

Wayne David Portrait Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

In the general findings of Sue Gray’s report, there is a reference to the

“failures of leadership and judgment by…No 10”.

Does the Prime Minister accept that she was largely referring to him?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I really think that the hon. Gentleman should recite the whole report. I have told him that I accept the findings that Sue Gray has given in full and we are acting on them today.

Natalie Elphicke Portrait Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s apology. He has taken responsibility; he has apologised; and it is right that he should do so. Can he confirm that tackling the small boats crisis will remain top in the new Office of the Prime Minister, because that is what the country wants to see—this Prime Minister getting on with the job?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, that is right. That is why we brought forward the Nationality and Borders Bill, which I am delighted to say that my hon. Friend supports and that the Government are getting through, and which the Labour party voted against.

Stephen Farry Portrait Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The flippancy of some of the answers today and the non-answers to other questions do not suggest that the Prime Minister is genuinely sorry. Does he recognise the long-term damage that he risks doing to historical norms of democracy? Is it right that they are sacrificed in the interests of one man who refuses to do what the country knows needs to happen? Can he point to one single example where he personally has improved standards in public life?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

How about deciding to honour the wishes of the people and deliver Brexit in spite of the Opposition’s attempts to subvert democracy?

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Delivery is key. The Prime Minister delivers. He delivered on Brexit. He delivered with furlough and with the self-employment income support scheme, which ensured that businesses were able to survive. [Interruption.] The Opposition shout it down because they do not like it; that is fine. He delivered one of the best vaccination programmes in the world. He delivered a country that is coming out of a pandemic and an economy that is thriving, with people who sadly lost their jobs in the last two years having more vacancies than ever to choose from. Nobody talks about those things, however, because all—

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. I think the Prime Minister has a grip of what the hon. Gentleman is saying.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We will deliver on the people’s priorities. We will deliver and keep delivering for Wales.

Florence Eshalomi Portrait Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

One of the hardest things I have had to do as an MP is speak to the family of Ismail Mohamed Abdulwahab, who was 13 years old when he died on 30 March 2020. He was one of the youngest people to lose his life to covid. I will admit that when I spoke to his mother, I broke down on the call.

Ismail’s family, like so many other constituents in Vauxhall, followed the rules. Many of them were scared to go out; many of them had to bury their loved ones without being there; many of them walk past the covid memorial wall in my constituency with that heart showing their loss. Does the Prime Minister now understand, and does he not feel ashamed, that his actions have brought disrepute to the office that he holds?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course I share the hon. Lady’s grief for Ismail.

I sympathise with his family. I understand the pain and loss that everyone has experienced throughout this country. All I can say is that I will continue to do my best to fight covid, as I have done throughout this pandemic, and to deliver for the British people. I cannot say more than that.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Having the required management expertise to run dozens of offices with hundreds of people within, is one thing. Running the country and getting the big decisions right is quite another. I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to have a look at what is happening at No. 10 and those management structures, so we can deliver on the Brexit promises we made to the people of this country.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend. That is why we are taking up the findings of the Sue Gray report. We want to make sure that No. 10 works better and that the whole of the Government work better. It has been focused very much on covid, but we now need to deliver exclusively on the great priorities of the people.

Hannah Bardell Portrait Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last summer, my team and I said goodbye to our colleague through the window of her hospice as she died of cancer. We did not get to hug her, and we were just like many millions of people across the UK. We followed the rules, while the Prime Minister and his colleagues did not.

It makes me sick to my stomach that we will not get the findings of the report because the police were so late to the party—the same Met police who were happy to arrest women who were protesting the murder of Sarah Everard. It makes me sick to my stomach that he does not understand the anger, fury and upset of millions of people across the UK. Sometimes, an apology will not cut it. It is time for action. It is time for a clear out. It is time for him to resign.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Again, I sympathise very much with the experience of the hon. Lady’s constituents and all the pain that people have gone through throughout this pandemic. I must say to her, though, that she is prejudging the issue in question. I do not think that is the right thing to do. I have a great deal of respect for the police and they should be allowed to get on with their job.

Paul Howell Portrait Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con)
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I think we have to remember that we are all talking about the breaking of the rules. Clearly, the rules and what happened are under question here. The rules that were put out by this Government have got this country to where it is. We have to remember that the rules did the right thing. Yes, there must be consequences in No. 10 for any rules that have been broken, but the right thing was done by instigating the rules in the first place. When I talk to my constituents, they say, yes, we need to ask the question about what happened, but can we stop making that the only sore subject, and can the Opposition talk about something else? We need to move on and level up this country.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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My hon. Friend is right. The rules are important. It was amazing to see the way people pulled together throughout the pandemic. I thank people very much. But what we need to do, if we possibly can—I think the Opposition would agree—is to focus on the issues that matter above all to the British people: fixing the cost of living, rebuilding our economy and clearing the covid backlogs. That is what this Government are doing.

Barry Sheerman Portrait Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
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I have known the Prime Minister a long time, and we have always got on quite well. He is not a wicked man, but he is a man who, for years and in every job, has got by flying on the seat of his pants. He has a chaotic management style, and that is a question of character. I ask him really to look in the mirror, as he said this morning, and say, “Am I the man for this challenging time for our country abroad, at home and in every sense?” Has he the character to carry on and do that job properly?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, because quite frankly I think it was absolutely indispensable that we had a strong No. 10 that was able to take us out of the EU, in spite of all the efforts of the Labour party to block it, and not only that but a booster campaign and a vaccine campaign that were led by No. 10 and have made a dramatic difference not just to the health of this country, but to the economic fortunes of this country. Whatever the hon. Gentleman says about me and my leadership, that is what we have delivered in the last year alone.

Scott Benton Portrait Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
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When I was knocking on doors in Blackpool at the weekend, I spoke to Julie, who said: “This Prime Minister has had the most difficult job in living history. He’s been dealing with a pandemic in which he nearly died. He’s been dealing with a media who haven’t forgiven him yet for delivering Brexit. And he hasn’t had a chance to crack on and deliver yet for the British people on their priorities.” The report has come out today and the Prime Minister has apologised. Let us allow him to get on and—[Interruption.]

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I want to say how passionately, vehemently and emphatically I agree with my hon. Friend’s remarks, which I could not quite hear. He is completely right. That is the priority of the British people and that is the priority of the Government.

Debbie Abrahams Portrait Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
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As limited as the Gray report is, the findings are still incredibly damning. There are multiples issues related to failures of leadership and judgment. Given that the Nolan principles and standards of public life describe the centrality of integrity, honesty and leadership, how can the Prime Minister continue?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I really think that the hon. Lady needs to read the report carefully. I am afraid that the conclusions she has drawn are not ones that I support. We are following Sue Gray’s advice and changing the way that No. 10 runs. We are going to do things differently, but I cannot agree with what the hon. Lady says.

Katherine Fletcher Portrait Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con)
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On Saturday, I was out and about in Lancashire enjoying ice cream—as I know you and your family do, Mr Speaker—in some of the finest ice cream parlours in the north of England. People said to me, “He’s a wally, but 100,000 Russians have just turned up. What the bloody hell are we doing talking about cake?” Does the Prime Minister agree with that statement?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend very much. What the country needs and what the west needs—[Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. If Members do not want to carry on the questioning, I am happy to pull stumps now. If we are going to have questions, I am going to hear the answers as well as the questions. [Interruption.] There is no use in the Member keeping standing up; you are going to have to sit down for a bit.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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What the country needs now is the UK Government working with our friends and partners to stand up to Vladimir Putin and to make sure that we have a strong package of sanctions. That is what we are doing.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
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The Prime Minister sets the culture at No. 10. Why does he think staff members there felt unable to raise their concerns about the bad behaviours reported today?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is one of the recommendations of the Sue Gray inquiry that we are going to take up to make sure that nobody should feel that in No. 10. That is why we are going to review the code to ensure that nobody feels that they have any inhibition on coming forward with any complaint that they may have.

Zarah Sultana Portrait Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)
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The Prime Minister and his allies are trying to distract and deflect from the truth, but here are the indisputable facts: the Prime Minister attended Downing Street parties; he told this House and the people we represent that he attended no parties and, in fact, that there were no parties. The rules were clearly broken and the ministerial code has been violated, so when will he stop insulting the intelligence of the British people, do the right thing and resign?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I really think the hon. Lady has got to let the Metropolitan police get on and do their job.

Brendan O'Hara Portrait Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
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Does the Prime Minister not recognise that the public are rapidly losing faith in the institutions that they must be able to trust if our democracy is to survive? It appears that there is no individual, no organisation, no group and no force whose reputation will not be sacrificed on the altar of saving this Prime Minister. Does he consider the erosion of public trust and the foundations of our democracy a price worth paying to ensure his personal survival?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I believe that among the foundations of our democracy are due process and the rule of law, and allowing the police to get on with their job, and that is what we are going to do.

Luke Pollard Portrait Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
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Paragraph iv of Sue Gray’s general findings states that there is a culture of “excessive consumption of alcohol” and that it is “not appropriate”. Is there also a culture of excessive drug taking in Downing Street?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Any drug taking would be excessive. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should direct that question to the Labour Front Bench.

Derek Twigg Portrait Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
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We have heard a lot about prejudging things today, but we only have to look at paragraph iii of the general findings for mention of

“failures of leadership and judgment by different parts of No 10 and the Cabinet Office… Some of the events should not have been allowed to take place. Other events should not have been allowed to develop as they did.”

I do not think that that is prejudging anything; it is very clear. There is only one person in charge at No. 10 in totality, and that is the Prime Minister. Let me remind the Prime Minister why this rule breaking and the way No. 10 behaved matters. Let me quote a constituent. This is from one of a number of emails I have had from constituents who have lost loved ones. She said:

“We received a call at 11.15pm on 29th May saying mum was deteriorating. Both my sister & I drove to the home and I spent the night sat on a chair outside her bedroom window watching her die! All I could do was sob & shout to her and tell her that I loved her. I couldn’t even hold her hand”.

That is why you should go, Prime Minister.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I totally understand the feelings of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, and I accept that things could have been done better in No. 10, as I have told the House before, but I must ask him to study what Sue Gray has said. We are acting on all her recommendations.

Nadia Whittome Portrait Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)
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Can the Prime Minister explain how changing the civil service hierarchy would have prevented him from breaching the covid regulations, as he has admitted in this House? When will he take responsibility for his own actions and stop hiding behind other people? My constituents do not want another Government Department; they want him to resign.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Lady is wrong in what she says and I direct her to what I said earlier.

Emma Lewell-Buck Portrait Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
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It has been revealed that in April 2021, as the Prime Minister partied, he swiftly rejected the idea of bereavement bubbles for those who had lost loved ones or suffered miscarriages, stillbirths or a child neonatal death. Far from getting it, he has deflected, laughed and smirked his way through this statement. He is a disingenuous man, isn’t he?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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No. This has been a harrowing and tragic experience for the entire country. We have done our best to deal with it. As for what the hon. Lady says about what has been going on in No. 10, I ask her to look at the report but also to wait for the police inquiry.

Owen Thompson Portrait Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
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This afternoon we have heard distraction, deflection and confusion, and we cannot even get an answer to the simplest of questions about whether the full report will be published when available. May I therefore ask the Prime Minister whether we are now looking at a situation of hobble, hobble, quack, quack?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to publish everything that we currently have, but the fact is that there are legal impediments and we have to wait until the police inquiry has concluded.

William Cash Portrait Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
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I accept entirely what the Prime Minister has just said. It is absolutely essential that we wait until we hear the next stage in these proceedings in relation to any future investigations. I would also like to draw attention to the historic achievements of this Prime Minister in relation not only to delivering Brexit but to the vaccine roll-out and to his dealings with Mr Putin. I believe that everybody should take that most firmly into account.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I thank my hon. Friend very much, and I think he is completely right. He might have added that we have the fastest economic growth in the G7, thanks to the steps that this Government have been taking.

Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
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We have established that there were parties, so we are just arguing about who is responsible. As the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) said, that is a Minister. If it is not the Prime Minister, is it the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), who should be facing the sack?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I remind the hon. Lady of what Sue Gray says in paragraph 12, that no such conclusion can be drawn so far. The hon. Lady must wait for the conclusion of the inquiry.

Janet Daby Portrait Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
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The Prime Minister announced at the weekend that he will be calling President Putin to urge de-escalation of the situation in Ukraine. The Daily Mirror has just reported that the call has been cancelled because the Prime Minister has been dealing with the Sue Gray report. Can he confirm that, on a matter of such grave importance, the report is correct and that he will be speaking to Vladimir Putin as soon as he leaves the Chamber?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I will be speaking to President Putin as soon as I can.

Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
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I have read the report in full, and I think this is the most striking sentence:

“There were failures of leadership and judgment by different parts of No 10 and the Cabinet Office at different times.”

My constituents have been writing to me while the Prime Minister has been speaking to say that he should resign, but they also want to know the full facts. Once the Met has concluded, why could he not then publish the full, unredacted report?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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We will have to see where the police get to, we will have to see the conclusion of their inquiry, and we will have to see what the legal position is then.

Mohammad Yasin Portrait Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)
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My constituents are deeply troubled and angered by the frequent scandals that are engulfing the Prime Minister’s Administration. It is not just partygate and the ongoing cover-up but all the other things: the proroguing of Parliament, the treatment of the Queen, the £3.5 billion of crony covid contracts, the writing off of £4.3 billion of covid loan fraud and the Russia report, to name but a few. Sussex University researchers have warned that this Administration is more corrupt

“than any UK government since the Second World War.”

The Prime Minister knows this, doesn’t he?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Gentleman’s point is completely ridiculous. He mentions what we did to get Brexit done, which was crucial to restoring public trust in democracy.

Richard Holden Portrait Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con)
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Like me, many of my constituents have been appalled by the reports of what has been happening in No. 10 and will welcome that my right hon. Friend has come to the House today to apologise as a first step in responding to this. Will he assure me that he will continue to keep the House updated on the implementation of the measures he is taking in response to the report? Will he also ensure that the whole No. 10 team fully co-operates with the Met’s inquiries so that they conclude as swiftly as possible?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, of course I will keep the House updated, and of course everybody in No. 10 will co-operate with the Met to the full.

Liam Byrne Portrait Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This is surely a new low: a Prime Minister of our country forced to come here to the mother of Parliaments to plead the fifth in a criminal investigation because, if the truth were told, he knows it would incriminate him. Let me ask a simple question. If he cannot get his facts straight on whether he was at a party in his own flat, how will anyone in this House ever again believe a word he says, and how will our partners around the world ever put their trust in him?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I am not going to dignify that question with an answer, except to say that the right hon. Gentleman has to wait. Everything he said is completely prejudicial.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
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I thought the people of Lancashire were supposed to be straight speaking, but I can assure people that my constituents are calling the Prime Minister a lot more than a wally—words I cannot repeat. We have staff who were too frightened to raise concerns about behaviour that they knew was ongoing. Half the staff invited to the bring your own booze party did not turn up, because they knew it was wrong, yet the Prime Minister said he thought it was a work event and within the rules. His lack of leadership and judgment is also shown by the “let the bodies pile high” comment about a second lockdown. The one thing that the leader of the Scottish Tories has said that is true is that this Prime Minister is not fit for office. Given that the Prime Minister will do anything to save his own skin, does that mean that the leader of the Scottish Tories will get binned as well?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I direct the hon. Gentleman to what I have said earlier.

Mick Whitley Portrait Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
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No one has said in the House this afternoon that 155,000 people died of covid. That is why we introduced the rules. This is simply not the comprehensive report that the British public were promised for so long, but at least it is clear in its findings that there was

“a serious failure to observe not just the high standards expected of those working at the heart of Government but also of the standards expected of the entire British population”

at the height of the pandemic. Does the Prime Minister accept responsibility for his failure to live up to the standards that the rest of us were expected to uphold?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I take responsibility for everything that happened in No. 10 and that the Government did throughout the pandemic.

Barry Gardiner Portrait Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
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The Gray report is clear that there should be no excessive consumption of alcohol in a workplace. Can the Prime Minister therefore assure the House that his own consumption of alcohol was not excessive and in particular that his judgment was at no time so clouded that he was in danger of telling the truth?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I could not quite hear the end of the hon. Gentleman’s question, but the answer is no. If he thinks I drunk too much, no.

Alex Norris Portrait Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
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The Prime Minister wants my constituents to suspend their disbelief and wait for the Met police to report. In which case, will he at least give them clarity that should the Metropolitan police issue him with a fixed penalty notice for participation at his party, he will resign?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Gentleman really needs to wait and see what the Met decide.

Andrew Gwynne Portrait Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
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We have had excessive what-aboutery, bluster and bravado from the Prime Minister. I suggest to him politely that we need a lot more humility from him, given that while the Gray report might be paper thin, it is very clear about the serious failings at No. 10. A fish rots from its head. May I suggest to the Prime Minister that it is not a new Prime Minister’s office that we need, but a new Prime Minister?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I hear the hon. Gentleman, and I simply repeat what I have said earlier. I am grateful to Sue Gray. We are taking action following her report, but he needs to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Sue Gray has made it clear that this is not a report, but an update on the investigation into covid breaches in Downing Street. Indeed, in her update she says that she is “extremely limited” in what she can say and that

“it is not possible at present to provide a meaningful report”.

If it is a case of, “Nothing to see here, move on”, as the Prime Minister is desperately trying to convince us, why has he repeatedly refused to commit to publish the full report, even after the police investigation has concluded? What does it say about those populating the Government Benches if they still genuinely think he is the best among them to be Prime Minister?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is not what I have said.

Neil Coyle Portrait Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
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The Prime Minister told Parliament and the British people that there were no parties. We now know that he attended several, including one at which he was ambushed with cake, in his most pathetic excuse yet. Given his previous statements, which we know to be patently false, how does he explain why this report says that at least 12 parties in his home warrant police investigation?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Gentleman has proved several times in that question that he has not got the faintest idea what he is talking about, and he should wait for the outcome of the inquiry.

Rupa Huq Portrait Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)
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In the Prime Minister’s apologies up to now, he has explained these things away as one-offs—a work do, ambushed by a cake and all those kinds of things. But this report makes it clear that there was a repeated pattern of behaviour, with the booze-ups after work that nobody else was having—not all our constituents who followed the rules. The report says that there is an investigation of a Downing Street party on 13 November 2020. Why did the Prime Minister tell my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) on 8 December that no such gathering took place? Subsequently, he told my right hon. Friend the leader of the Labour party that anyone who tells mistruths from that Dispatch Box should resign. Is he a man of his word?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Lady needs to look at what I said and she needs to look at the outcome of the inquiry.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister said in his statement that he understands the anger of people in this country, but does he also understand that for many people in this country who are watching, their greatest fears about how this would be handled have been realised? They have seen an apology, yes, but they have also seen obfuscation, delay and tinkering, rather than an acceptance of responsibility. The Prime Minister says that he wants to get on and deal with the important issues facing this country. Perhaps the only way we will be able to do that is for him to accept that he has become an obstacle to it and resign.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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No, we are going to get on with the job.

Jeff Smith Portrait Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister was wrong in something he said earlier: the Sue Gray update can be both damning and incomplete. Most of us can only guess how much more damning the full report will be. His colleagues should worry about that. I think he knows how bad it is going to be, because he knows what has gone on. Is that not the real reason why he will not commit to publishing the report in full when the police have completed their investigation?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

No. The hon. Gentleman is totally prejudging the whole thing. He needs to contain himself and wait for the police to complete their inquiries.

Drew Hendry Portrait Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
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The Sue Gray update is not the report that this House deserves and it is not the transparency that the public were expecting, but it does make it very clear that there were “failures of leadership” at No. 10. The Prime Minister is the leader at No. 10, so will he now pack his suitcase, or will he leave it to his officials to carry his cans?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman just needs to look at the report again and to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

“Look her in the eyes and tell her you never bend the rules.” A lot of us remember that campaign. It cost of tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money. On 13 November 2020, the Prime Minister bent the rules, didn’t he?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said earlier in this House. Frankly, he needs to wait until the conclusion of the police inquiry.

Stephen Flynn Portrait Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This morning, the Conservative party in Scotland issued a press release that stated:

“The pandemic sees rise in criminals getting away with crimes”.

Was it talking about the Prime Minister?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

What we are actually doing is cutting crime by 14% and putting 20,000 more police on the streets.

Rushanara Ali Portrait Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Week in, week out throughout the pandemic, I, like many of my colleagues, had to deal with constituents who could not see their dying relatives or grieve with their families. Some of us were directly affected when we lost family members and loved ones. The Prime Minister’s actions have made a mockery of the British people’s sacrifices during the pandemic, and now he is the subject of a criminal investigation. It is a new low for our country and it makes a mockery of our democracy to the rest of the world. If the Prime Minister takes responsibility for everything that has happened, as he has said, is it not time that he puts his party, this Parliament and the country out of their misery and steps down, so that we can move on and focus on the national interest? At the moment, that is not possible because of the crisis that he and No. 10 have created.

Carol Monaghan Portrait Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is clear that the Prime Minister has used these parties, like many an under-par manager, to buy popularity and favour. Can the Prime Minister tell us if he is using the same techniques when negotiating treaties and trade deals with international leaders?

Rachael Maskell Portrait Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Today should have been about contrition and remorse, but it seems that the Prime Minister does not understand the meaning of “sorry”; instead, it has insulted the people who have suffered and sacrificed for the last two years. One question many people want to know is: who is paying for these investigations—the police and Sue Gray’s report—and who is paying for his legal advice? Is it the taxpayer?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I must say I think the hon. Member is wrong in what she says. As for who is covering the police costs, the police are covering the police costs.

Daisy Cooper Portrait Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister has inadvertently referred to this as “the” Gray report when, if he had read as far as the front cover, he would see that it is called an “update”. It is because it is an update that it makes public trust in the Met’s investigation even more important. The public must know that the Met will investigate without fear or favour, so can the Prime Minister confirm that, not at any single stage, has anybody in No. 10 or the Cabinet Office sought to influence the Met’s decision on delaying its initial investigation, or was the delay the result of its own incompetence?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, and the only people calling into question the Met’s independence are I think those on the side opposite—on the hon. Member’s Benches.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Prime Minister has seriously misjudged the mood of the country, and indeed he has misjudged the mood of his own Back Benchers. My constituent wrote to me devastated and upset: he could not see his disabled son, his elderly mother with dementia and his newborn child, putting a serious toll on his mental health. Like millions across the country, he followed the rules, but the Prime Minister thinks he is above the rules. Instead, he blames his civil service and he restructures. Will he do the decent thing and resign?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I disagree with the hon. Member profoundly, because I do understand people’s feelings and I do understand why this is so important for people. But I must say that I think the best thing now is for the inquiry to be concluded, and in the meantime for us all to get on with the work that I think everybody wants us to do.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I have enjoyed the exercise this afternoon. I also wanted to enjoy the Prime Minister’s answers to questions, but unfortunately he has ducked and dived, and done everything but answer questions about a party on 13 November, about whether he will put out the final report—

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Just ask the question!

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Okay, I will ask the Prime Minister one more, which has been asked already. If he gets a fine—a fixed penalty fine—from the Metropolitan police after all this is over, will he pay it himself or ask a Tory donor to pay it for him?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is a process, and we have to wait for it to conclude.

Barbara Keeley Portrait Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Among those who were the most isolated during the pandemic were people with learning disabilities, cut off from visits by their families and not even allowed an advocate if they were admitted to hospital. For too many, restrictions to services and the awful isolation without visitors that the Prime Minister’s rules expected them to follow were a matter of life and death. The mortality rate for people with learning disabilities from covid was eight times that of the general population. When he thinks about the damage done to all those groups who were so isolated and their families, and the serious failings of leadership and judgment in No. 10 found by this independent investigation, how can he think his position is tenable?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Member is entirely right about the suffering of people with learning disabilities, and indeed all vulnerable groups who were exposed to lockdowns for long periods. That is why, actually, we worked so hard to make sure that we could get this country out of lockdown and keep it out of lockdown, and that was our objective.

Stewart Hosie Portrait Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
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I do not need to wait for the full Sue Gray report, because this one tells me one important fact: there were a heck of a lot of parties. At which point during this catalogue of frivolity, while the Prime Minister was clearing last night’s empty wine bottles off his desk before settling down to work the following afternoon, did he conclude that having one rule for him and another for the general public was undermining his own health messaging and costing people’s lives?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting what Sue Gray says. He is also, perhaps inadvertently, completely mispresenting what happened.

Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
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This report confirms what we already know: the abject failure in leadership at No. 10. Will the Prime Minister take responsibility and do what the constituents of Liverpool, Riverside are asking for—resign, so that we can get on and deal with the crisis facing this country?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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No. I refer to what I said earlier.

Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
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On 8 December, the Prime Minister told this House:

“I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no covid rules were broken.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2021; Vol. 705, c. 372.]

Well, just who gave him those assurances? Given that he was at some of the parties, and at least one of them was in his own flat, he should not need anyone else to tell him what happened, so it looks like when the Prime Minister spoke those words he was fooling himself—or was he just trying to fool everyone else?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Gentleman needs to wait and see what the inquiry concludes. That is what due process demands. I stick by what I said.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. I can see eight people standing, and they are the last eight I will take—just to let the House know.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
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Section 5.1 of the ministerial code states:

“Ministers must uphold the political impartiality of the Civil Service, and not ask civil servants to act in any way which would conflict with the Civil Service Code”,

and finding vi. of Sue Gray’s report, which I have read, says:

“Some staff wanted to raise concerns about behaviours they witnessed at work but…felt unable to do so.”

Does the Prime Minister agree that if his staff—in fact, civil servants and workers everywhere—feel afraid to raise concerns about inappropriate behaviour at work, they should contact their trade union rep, or join a trade union?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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That is why I have accepted the conclusions and Sue Gray’s findings in full, and we will implement the changes.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. I assume that everyone standing has been here for the opening statement and throughout.

Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
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I have listened carefully to the statement, the questions and the answers, and indeed to my constituents, many of whom are devastated to hear that there may have been parties and some of whom have suffered great hardship. I am glad that the Prime Minister has come here to apologise and to take on board the recommendations, but I am concerned that this is taking time and attention from key issues. This statement alone has been going on for nearly two hours. The Prime Minister has achieved great things with Brexit and vaccines, but can he assure this House, me and my constituents that this ongoing investigation and the reorganisation of No. 10 will not take his laser-like focus away from the issues that matter to us?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that absolute assurance.

Hilary Benn Portrait Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
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Has a date been set for the Prime Minister to be interviewed by the Metropolitan police in connection with their inquiry?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The police are independent and they must get on with their inquiry.

Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
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This reads like a dreadful, poorly written soap opera—an unbelievable soap opera. I hear Government Members say how important it is to their constituents to go into the detail, but my constituents are incandescent at the behaviour of this Prime Minister. Will he accept the damage he is doing to the office of elected representative—to all of us—and will he do the right thing and clear out?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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No, for the reasons I have already given.

Steven Bonnar Portrait Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP)
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We do know that staff were made to work in conditions that made them feel uneasy, and perhaps even unsafe, and they also felt that they were unable to say something. People were exposed to a potentially deadly virus, unable to say something about it, in their workplace, while parties were raging on around and about them, “At least some” of which, says Mrs Gray,

“represent a serious failure to observe…the high standards expected of those working at the heart of Government”.

Who is responsible for that, Prime Minister?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Member is completely misrepresenting what took place.

Gavin Newlands Portrait Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
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Despite the omissions from Sue Gray’s update, it makes crystal clear that the office that the Prime Minister occupies and the Government that he leads behaved in a despicable and disrespectful way when the public faced the gravest of threats. Does he not accept that his personal conduct before becoming Prime Minister and since has been completely unacceptable and that if he had any respect for his own office and for the public—and, indeed, a scintilla of integrity—he would announce his resignation to the 1922 committee tonight?

Stuart C McDonald Portrait Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
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When will the various statements made by the Prime Minister from the Dispatch Box about parties and gatherings at Downing Street be investigated under the ministerial code? Is it not absolutely farcical that that is a question for the Prime Minister at all?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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We have an investigation going on. That is the one that I think people should focus on, and they should allow the police to get on with their job.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)
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The Prime Minister said in his statement, “sorry for the things we…did not get right” and, “sorry for the way this…has been handled”, which is a generic non-apology that will mean absolutely nothing to anyone who heard it. What I and millions of others want to hear is: apart from getting caught out in all of this, what is the Prime Minister personally sorry and genuinely regretful for in his own conduct? If he just resorts to that tired, hackneyed form of words that he used to begin with, does that not show that it is not a new Office of the Prime Minister that we need but a new Prime Minister in office?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I have repeated several times how sorry I am for any misjudgements that I made, and I continue to apologise for them. All I can say is that we need to get on and await the outcome of the inquiry and allow the Government to deliver on the priorities of the country, which are: to unite and level up; to continue to cut crime; and to make colossal investments across our whole country. That is what we are going to do.

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and for answering questions for just short of two hours.

Russia: Sanctions

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:23
Elizabeth Truss Portrait The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Elizabeth Truss)
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With permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on what we are doing to tackle Russia’s aggression against Ukraine. Moscow’s malign intent is clear: it has massed over 100,000 troops on Ukraine’s frontier and Russian forces are continuing to arrive in Belarus. It is only eight years since Russia illegally annexed Crimea and stoked conflict in the Donbass region, so we know that the danger is real. They have been pursuing a campaign of hybrid warfare aimed at destabilising the country. Just last week, we exposed the Kremlin’s plans to install a puppet regime in Kyiv.

This threatening behaviour towards a sovereign, democratic, independent country is completely unacceptable. It is a clear violation of the commitments and obligations that Russia freely signed up to, from the Helsinki Final Act and the Minsk protocols to the Budapest memorandum, which guaranteed to

“respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.”

The only way forward is for Russia to de-escalate, pull back its troops and engage in meaningful talks on the basis of those existing obligations. That is why the UK is determined to lead the way through deterrence and diplomacy.

The Prime Minister will travel to the region this week, and later today the UK will be joining discussions at the UN Security Council to apply further pressure on Russia to take the diplomatic route. I will be flying out to Moscow over the next fortnight. That builds on our campaign of diplomatic engagement over recent weeks and months. I have led calls from the G7, NATO and the OSCE to urge Russia to desist from its reckless and destabilising activities in Ukraine, as well as in Georgia, the Baltics and the Western Balkans. I have raised these issues directly with the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov. Both the United States and NATO have set out areas where we could explore reciprocal measures to increase transparency, reduce risk, and take forward arms control. The ball is firmly in Russia’s court.

While we are determined to accelerate those efforts, we do so from a position of strength. We are combining dialogue with deterrence. That is why the Prime Minister is considering options for further deployments of our armed forces, to reassure and protect allies on NATO’s eastern flank. We are preparing to offer to support NATO with additional fast jets, warships and military specialists. As NATO’s biggest spender in Europe on defence, we are prepared to deploy our forces accordingly.

We have been very clear that a united alliance would meet any further Russian invasion of Ukraine with massive consequences for Russia’s interests and economy. We are preparing an unprecedented package of co-ordinated sanctions with our partners, which would impose severe costs. Today, I am setting out our readiness to act. We will be laying legislation before the House that will significantly strengthen our hand in dealing with Russia’s aggressive action towards Ukraine. It will go further than ever before.

Until now, the UK has only been able to sanction those linked to the destabilisation of Ukraine. This new legislation will give us the power to sanction a much broader range of individuals and businesses. We will be able to target any company that is linked to the Russian state, engages in business of economic significance to the Russian state, or operates in a sector of strategic significance to the Russian state. Not only will we be able to target these entities, we will also be able to go after those who own or control them. This will be the toughest sanctions regime against Russia we have ever had, and it is the most radical departure in approach since leaving the European Union. Those in and around the Kremlin will have nowhere to hide.

We will make sure that those who share responsibility for the Kremlin’s aggressive and destabilising action will share in bearing a heavy cost. Their assets in the UK will be frozen. No UK business or individual would be able to transact with them, and should they seek to enter the UK, they would be turned back. Laying this legislation now will enable us to act in concert with the United States and other partners rapidly, multiplying our collective impact. We will use these new powers in a targeted manner, designed to damage the interests of those who bear greatest responsibility for Russia’s actions and exert the greatest pressure to change course. I will not say now exactly who we may target, or with what measure, but Moscow should be clear that we will use these new powers to maximum effect if it pursues its aggressive intent towards Ukraine. Nothing is off the table.

We are also standing with our Ukrainian friends by providing vital support to help them defend themselves. That is why we are supplying the country with defensive, anti-tank missiles, and deploying a training team of British personnel. We have already trained over 21,000 members of the Ukrainian army through Operation Orbital. In addition, we are stepping up our investment in Ukraine’s future, ramping up support for trade up to £3.5 billion, including £1.7 billion to boost Ukraine’s naval capability. We will continue to stand united with Ukraine.

It might seem hard to believe that in the 21st century the citizens of a proud, sovereign, European democracy are living under the threat of invasion. We know from the lessons of history that this course of action would benefit no-one. I do not believe that ordinary Russian citizens want to enter into an intractable quagmire of needless death and destruction that could rival the Soviet-Afghan war or the conflict in Chechnya. Indeed, we have no quarrel whatsoever with the Russian people, only with the policies pursued by its leader. It is time for the Kremlin to step back from the brink, to de-escalate and to enter into meaningful dialogue. If it does not, it should be in no doubt: we will be ready to use the powers that I have set out today to maximum effect. We will join our allies and partners to ensure that such reckless action will bring strategic consequences at a massive cost. We will defend freedom, democracy and the rule of law.

I commend this statement to the House.

17:30
David Lammy Portrait Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
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I thank the right hon. Lady for advance sight of her statement, and for our discussions on this issue. I am very grateful.

As we in the Opposition have made clear since this crisis began, we stand in resolute support of Ukraine’s sovereignty and in opposition to Russian aggression. We support the essential international diplomatic efforts to achieve de-escalation and the defensive support provided to Ukraine. I said it in Kyiv two weeks ago, and I say it again now: we on these Benches believe that it is important to send a united message from the whole House. That is why we welcome moves by the Government to lay the groundwork for a robust and extensive package of sanctions against Russia in the event of any incursion or attack on Ukraine.

We believe that these measures must be broad, severe and comprehensive. They must apply widely to crucial sectors of the Russian economy, without gaps or loopholes.

They must target corrupt elites who store their money in our country. They must target not just relevant Russian entities, but those who enable, support, service or facilitate their activities. Can the Foreign Secretary confirm that UK subsidiaries of any new sanctioned targets would not be carved out of scope? We know that some oligarchs have used their wealth to seek influence and protect themselves from criticism, so may I ask for her assurance that these measures will be applied without fear or favour? Given that the measures were pre-briefed and include broad categories of potential targets, may I ask what assessment she has made of the risks of asset flight, and what steps she has taken to protect against it?

These sanctions are conditional on Russia’s actions. Their purpose is to form a serious deterrent, which when matched by unified action and the work of the G7, NATO and the OSCE, will make President Putin think again. However, there is much more that we must do irrespective of the decisions made by President Putin—things that it should not have taken an army threatening Ukraine to put in place; things that the Opposition have repeatedly urged the Government to address. For years, the Labour party and colleagues across the House have raised the alarm about the role of dirty money in keeping Putin in power.

For too long, our defences have been let down at home while the Government looked abroad. Despite warning after warning and report after report, the Government have been asleep at the wheel. London is the destination of choice for the world’s kleptocrats. We are home to the services and enablers who help corrupt elites to hide their ill-gotten wealth. We have a system of corporate transparency that permits the products of larceny on a grand scale to be hidden under our noses—and the result is the embarrassing spectacle of President Biden being warned that the widespread presence of suspect Russian money in the UK could jeopardise Britain’s response to this crisis. This is not a matter simply of individuals, welcome though that action is; it is about fixing a broken system—our openness to fraud and money laundering, our inadequate regulation of political donations, our lax mechanisms of corporate governance, and our weakness to foreign interference.

I therefore ask the right hon. Lady the following questions. Where is the economic crime Bill that the Government have just pulled? Where is the comprehensive reform of Companies House? Where is the register of overseas entities Bill? Where is the foreign agent registration law? Where are the new counter-espionage laws? Where are the new rules on political donations? Where is the reform of tier 1 golden visas? Where is the replacement of the outdated Computer Misuse Act 1990? Where is the reform of the Electoral Commission, and why does the Government’s Elections Bill make these problems worse by enabling political donations from donors based overseas?

The right hon. Lady’s movement on sanctions is welcome, but there is much, much more to do. These steps at home are not distinct from sanctions or diplomacy abroad. They must form part of a unified and coherent response—one that has been urged consistently by the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), the Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee. If she truly wants to fix the problem, she must start there.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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First, may I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary for his constructive approach? It is vital that all Members of the House demonstrate their support for freedom and democracy in the face of severe aggression by the Russian regime, not just on the borders of Ukraine, but through Belarus, into the western Balkans, and across the world. I will take forward the united message that I have heard from the whole House to our friends in Ukraine, who very much welcome the support that they have been offered by the United Kingdom—the economic support, the support in terms of defensive weaponry, and the support in the face of Russian aggression.

The package that we are putting forward in legislation will be in place by 10 February, which means that we are able to enact wide-ranging sanctions in broad categories that really target anybody who is providing strategic or economic support to the Russian regime. There will be nowhere to hide, and I am very clear that we will apply those sanctions without fear or favour.

We have already taken steps to tighten up our regime on corruption and illicit finance through the Criminal Finances Act 2017, the global anti-corruption sanctions regimes that we have put in place and our review of all tier 1 visas granted before 5 April. We will also be introducing the economic crime Bill. The Prime Minister committed to that at the summit for democracy with President Biden at the end of last year. Let me assure the House that our priority is the defence of freedom and democracy. That comes before any short-term economic interest not only for our country, but for the whole of Europe. We must wean ourselves and others off dependence on Russian gas. We must target the criminal and corrupt money, and that is what we are determined to do with this extension of our sanctions regime, the most radical that we have put together yet.

Tom Tugendhat Portrait Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to hear from my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary about the tightening of the sanctions regime. She knows that the Foreign Affairs Committee has called for that for four years. It is extremely welcome that she is looking hard at dirty money, and here I find myself in agreement with the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy). The need to clean up the dirty money in our economy is not just about doing the right thing and standing up alongside the people of Ukraine, but about standing up for the British people, defending ourselves against the corruption that flows through our system, and making sure that our houses, our homes, are not being exploited to pay murderers on behalf of a dictator. This is not a foreign problem; this is a problem for the United Kingdom to deal with at home. The strongest thing that we can do to defend Ukraine is to defend ourselves against filth and corruption in our City.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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My hon. Friend is right in what he says about the work that the Foreign Affairs Committee has done to champion this issue. This is why we are introducing a much tougher sanctions regime on Russia. As I have said, we will be bringing forward the economic crime Bill to add to the work that we already doing to tackle illicit finance.

Alyn Smith Portrait Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)
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I, too, am grateful for sight of the statement, which we support. I have already said in the House that the SNP will be part of the coalition to defend Ukraine and our democracy. It is not a blank cheque, because we will want to see some details, but hon. Members can rest assured that we will stand behind the measures.

I would be grateful for reassurance that Scottish limited partnerships will be included in the package, because they are a clear risk in terms of dubious transactions, and that property transactions will be part of it as well. I also ask for reassurance that there will be co-ordination with the EU precisely to avoid asset flight, given that the measures have been telegraphed.

I have another question, to which I do want an answer. I have pledged the SNP’s support for the measures, but I want a statement from the Foreign Secretary in response to Pippa Crerar, the political editor of the Daily Mirror, who is an impeccable journalist with impeccable sources. She reports that there was supposed to be a call between the Prime Minister and President Putin today but that:

“When the Gray report landed the Russians were asked to shift the time—but they couldn’t. So it’s off…”.

What in the name of hell impression does that give to our friends and our allies if it is true—perhaps it is not? I would be grateful for an assurance that it is not true, or if it is true, I would be grateful for an assurance that that conversation will take place.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that absolutely nothing is off the table in terms of who and which organisations we will target with these sanctions. We are very committed to working with our partners, including the EU. We had a big discussion at the G7 in Liverpool about the sanctions regime. I have had discussions since then with Josep Borrell and my EU counterparts to ensure that we are fully co-ordinated, as well as with the US. The Prime Minister will shortly be speaking to President Putin. As I have said, I will be travelling to Moscow in the next fortnight to speak to my counterpart Sergey Lavrov.

Julian Lewis Portrait Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
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Cutting out a cancer is both painful and dangerous. Is the Foreign Secretary aware that the previous Intelligence and Security Committee, in its Russia report, drew on the expertise of Edward Lucas, who today has a comment column in The Times headed, “Britain has become addicted to dirty money”? May I suggest that if she wants to be sure that the cancer will indeed be cut out of the body politic and the country’s wider economy, she could do far worse than to consult Mr Lucas before she finalises her proposed sanctions and their structures?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I thank my right hon. Friend for his suggestion. I would be happy to meet the gentleman he mentions.

Stephen Kinnock Portrait Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
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Six months ago, the Government said that they were finalising their report into how more than 700 Russian millionaires were fast-tracked for British residency via their so-called golden visa scheme. Can the Foreign Secretary tell the House when that long-overdue report will be published? Does she agree that the reason for the delay relates directly to the £4 million that has been donated to the Conservative party by seven individuals who have deep and highly dubious links to the Kremlin?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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We are reviewing the tier 1 visas that were granted before 5 April. I am sure the Home Secretary will have more to say about that in due course.

Tobias Ellwood Portrait Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
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I welcome the statement and the wider steps that the UK is taking to support Ukraine. My concern is that western tactical responses are playing into Putin’s strategy. Seeking meetings with him, for example, plays to his self-importance; any sanctions actioned will drive Russia ever closer to China, which is exactly what he wants; and sending NATO reinforcements around Ukraine, but not in it, is not the way to deter an attack.

I worry that we are missing the bigger picture. Putin is using the Ukraine crisis to realign Russia militarily, economically and geopolitically with China, which has massive security implications for the west. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the only way to halt an invasion and check that dangerous trajectory is to support Ukraine militarily? This is our Cuban missile crisis. I encourage Britain to lead the call to deploy an offensive alliance and stand up to Putin’s aggression.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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Our approach in dealing with the issue of Russian aggression is both deterrence and diplomacy. That is why the UK has been at the forefront in supplying defensive weapons to Ukraine, training up Ukrainian forces and working with our allies, many of whom are also supplying defensive support into Ukraine. But we have to be clear that there is a difference between a country that is a member of NATO, which has a security guarantee—Baltic states such as Estonia, where UK troops are in place—and the situation in Ukraine.

In my view, the best way of deterring Vladimir Putin from an invasion of Ukraine is by making it very clear, first, that that will not be simple or easy and is likely to result in a quagmire, as we saw in the Soviet-Afghan war or in Chechnya; and, secondly, that there will be severe economic consequences—and those are, of course, sanctions that target oligarchs and companies close to Vladimir Putin. Also, not going ahead with Nord Stream 2 is very important from the Russian point of view.

It is important that we talk to Russia and communicate these messages. We will not resile from our position on the protection of the open-door policy into NATO, but we will communicate directly with Russia so that it understands those messages.

Kevan Jones Portrait Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
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The Foreign Secretary comes to the House, talks tough and says that the Government have a readiness to act. It is four years since the Foreign Affairs Committee produced its “Moscow’s Gold” report, which outlined Russian corruption in the UK. It is two years since the Intelligence and Security Committee published its report on Russia, which outlined similar concerns. Why have the Government not acted in those years? If we are going to implement sanctions, how can we believe that they will be effective without strong political will and the determination to make them work?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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We have taken a number of measures in recent years: namely, the Criminal Finances Act 2017 and the review we are conducting of visas. I am saying that the most far-reaching sanctions regime will be in place by 10 February, making sure that Russia understands that there is a severe package ready to be in place. Of course, I am absolutely prepared to do what is necessary to make those costs severe.

John Whittingdale Portrait Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
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My right hon. Friend is right that our argument is with President Putin and his cronies, not with the Russian people, but she will be aware that Russian citizens, and, indeed, many in eastern Ukraine, are able only to access Russian propaganda from state-owned or oligarch-owned media channels, while independent journalists are put into prison and the internet is censored. Will she look at what more can be done, perhaps through the BBC World Service and the tech platforms, to ensure that the Russian people can access objective and factual reporting?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We are looking at all the channels that we can communicate through directly to the Russian people as well as to the Russian Government. That is something that I will look to do on my visit to Russia.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This is just weak, weak, weak. Honestly, since 2010, when the Conservatives came to power and they first started saying that they wanted to press the reset button with Putin, we have been weak, ambivalent and vacillating towards the Russian Federation. We have no quarrel with the Russian people; it is with President Putin. It does not work to try to look tough when the Government have refused to deal with the issue of tier 1 visas. It is shocking that the Foreign Secretary does not even have a proper answer to that question this afternoon. This has been going on for ages; we have been giving them out to thousands of Russian oligarchs. She still does not have an answer—maybe she will have now—to the question about unexplained wealth orders. If we cannot make them, how will this new legislation make any difference? This is far, far too late. It is not a question of whether the horse has bolted; they have invited the horse in, sat it down at the table and given it plenty to eat.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I suggest that the hon. Gentleman goes to Ukraine—

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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I have been!

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I suggest he goes to Ukraine and asks the Ukrainian Government which of their allies they think is giving them the most support. The answer is that the United Kingdom has supplied more defensive weapons to Ukraine than any of our NATO—[Interruption.]

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. Please, the question has been asked; let us hear the answer.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The answer is that the Ukrainian Government are very grateful for the support that the United Kingdom is giving. Of all the European NATO allies, we are the largest supplier of defensive weapons to Ukraine. We have helped to train up the Ukrainian forces, we are providing economic support, and the sanctions package that I am announcing today goes far further than the EU sanctions regime which, presumably, the hon. Gentleman supports.

Liam Fox Portrait Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I very much welcome what my right hon. Friend has said today. It is quite understandable and right that our focus is currently on Ukraine, but is not this just part of a bigger picture? What we have is a Russia that is trying to build an arc of instability around NATO, from the Arctic through the Baltic to the Balkans and the Caucasus. Does this not require a sustained, consistent and strong policy of deterrence, using diplomatic, economic and military elements? Would it not be a good start if all members of NATO carried their fair share of the defence spending burden?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why the UK is supplying support from the high north through to the Baltics and through to the Black sea, backing up NATO as the largest defence spender of all the European NATO allies. That is being recognised. Contrary to what those on the Opposition Benches say, that is being recognised by our allies in the Baltic, by our allies in eastern Europe, and by our allies in Ukraine.

Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
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We cannot sanction what we cannot see, and while I welcome this statement, I would like some clarity on whether this new legislation will finally include a register of beneficial owners for overseas entities. The Foreign Secretary will know that many of these oligarchs hide their money, particularly in UK property. The press release from the FCDO says that it is going to leave Russia “nowhere to hide”, so is that loophole finally going to be closed?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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The legislation we are putting forward is about being able to target entities and individuals that are of strategic or economic interest in the Russian state. We are broadening it out much more widely than before, when we would have been able to apply sanctions only to those who were actively destabilising Ukraine. We can target asset freezing, and we can target the ability to enter the UK of those individuals and entities. The register of interests that the hon. Lady is talking about is part of the economic crime Bill that is being brought forward by the Treasury, and the Prime Minister has committed to that happening this year.

Mark Pritchard Portrait Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
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I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement today, and the announcement of new powers. They are long overdue, but I am glad that it is this Government who are delivering them, and doing so by 10 February. That will also be welcomed by the Rada in Kyiv and by the Government of Ukraine. Is it not the case that Ukraine is not NATO’s border and not the EU’s border, but that it is democracy’s border, which is why Ukraine matters? I thank her for her good offices in working hard to galvanise opinion in Washington and across EU capitals to ensure that we have that strong defence, strong deterrence and strong diplomacy.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I thank my hon. Friend for his work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Ukraine. Ukraine is vital. It is a freedom-loving democracy in Europe. If we do not work hard—we are—to defend Ukraine from Russian aggression, that will simply encourage aggressors around the world. This is not just a regional security issue, important though it is; it is a global security issue.

Stewart Malcolm McDonald Portrait Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
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Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), I support much of what is in the statement. The statement says that the Secretary of State will not name who or what may be targeted with sanctions, but can she clarify that whatever the new legislation looks like, it will enable the Government to take action against Kremlin mouthpieces and outlets in this country, for example RT UK?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I said, I am not going to talk about the individuals or entities that could be targeted, but it will be anyone who is of strategic or economic interest to the Russian state. The hon. Gentleman can imagine that that is quite a broad list of people and entities.

Alec Shelbrooke Portrait Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend will know well that Kyiv was the original capital of Rus, and was an area of fabulous wealth and education until invaded by the Khans. The Russians and the Rus called them the Tatars. Many reports have come out that tens of thousands of Tatars have disappeared from Crimea. That human rights atrocity cannot be properly investigated. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we must try to find out exactly what has been happening to the Tatar population?

Equally, for those who do not feel it is important or that we should somehow let Russia have the Russian empire, as President Putin outlined in his essay last year, that goes against every principle of freedom and democracy of standing up to fascist Governments who want to ethnically cleanse people over centuries of hatred.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right. Friend is completely right. Let us remember that Russia signed up to Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity in the 1994 Budapest agreement. It signed up to that, and what it is seeking to do is renege on its commitments, stoke aggression and seek to undermine Ukrainian democracy in a variety of ways, whether by false flag operations or cyber-attacks or by trying to install puppet regimes in Kyiv.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

A few minutes ago, the Prime Minister stood at the Dispatch Box and said, in response to questions on partygate, that his is the Government who are bringing countries together “to stand up against Putin”, but just last week, our closest allies went public with their concerns over Russian influence in this country. Will the Secretary of State admit that her Government have undermined our diplomatic status and our national security by refusing for so long to take seriously Russian influence and dirty money?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not accept the hon. Lady’s talking down of the UK’s role. It was at the G7 meeting in Liverpool that we agreed with our allies, including the United States, the EU and Japan, that the Russian regime would face severe consequences of an incursion into Ukraine. That language has now been adopted by all our allies and partners. We have led the way in providing defensive weaponry to Ukraine. We have led the way today with our package of economic sanctions, which go beyond what we were able to do as a member of the EU.

Alicia Kearns Portrait Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The time for deterrence diplomacy is now. Over the last two weeks, from Kramatorsk, to Donetsk, from Kyiv to Sarajevo and Mostar, civilians have been clear with me that they believe the west will either save them or there will be bloodshed in Europe. What consideration has my right hon. Friend given to blacklisting Russian banks? Will she look at joining the US in sanctioning Milorad Dodik in Bosnia, whose ethno-nationalist, separatist, genocide-denying agitation also risks bringing bloodshed to Europe?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I know that my hon. Friend has recently visited the western Balkans. We are absolutely looking at what more we can do on sanctions on the regime there, as well as at how we target some of the Russian entities that she talked about.

Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Any war on the border between Ukraine and Russia will be utterly disastrous for the people of Ukraine, the people of Russia and the future of peace throughout the whole continent of Europe. When the Foreign Secretary travels to Moscow to have discussions with the Russian Government, I hope that she will be able to reassert the agreements reached in the 1990s that recognised Ukrainian independence, but will she also try to take the whole thing a stage further with a new disarmament agreement with Russia, revisiting the previous agreements? Will she ensure that the British state is represented at the Vienna convention on nuclear weapons in the middle of March, as a way to take forward the de-escalation of stress and threats and thereby to wind down the tensions on the border? If we carry on building up massive numbers of troops on both sides of the border, something awful is going to happen and it will be very hard to get out of it.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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Let us be clear: it is the Russian regime that has amassed the tanks and troops on the Ukrainian border. It is the Russian regime that has escalated aggression, and not just towards Ukraine but through Belarus and in the western Balkans. It is the Russian regime that needs to step back before it ends up entering into what could be—I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on this point—a very serious quagmire, with appalling consequences for the people of both Ukraine and Russia. That is the point that I will make when I travel to Moscow in the next fortnight.

Bob Seely Portrait Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Secretary of State for her very robust approach. This is not a criticism of her, but we still lack a comprehensive and coherent approach to dealing with Russia’s hybrid war. Frankly, this is a decade too late—so there is no criticism of her—and it is clear that deterrence is not working. My question is on facilitators, which a few other people have mentioned. Does she understand how corrosive it is to have young UK service personnel—ordinary kids in uniform—in forward positions in the Baltics while in London a morally vacant and corrupted class of lawyers, bankers, reputation launderers and kompromat-style private investigators coin it, serving the needs of a parasitic, murderous oligarch class that is part of a neo-fascist regime that now threatens war in Europe? What are we doing about this corrupt facilitator class?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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As I outlined earlier, we have taken action against illicit finance and corruption. We have established the National Cyber Security Centre and we are working hard to support Ukraine on the cyber-attacks it faces from the Russian regime, and I have announced today a sanctions regime that is by far the toughest we have ever had against Russia.

Hilary Benn Portrait Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
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The Foreign Secretary’s announcement shows that the Government can act speedily when they want to—these measures will be on the statute book by 10 February—so will she explain to the House why we are still waiting for all the measures referred to by the shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), in his response to the statement? Why can those measures not be acted on as speedily as the sanctions that the Foreign Secretary has announced to the House today?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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As I said, we put through the Criminal Finances Act 2017, our global anti-corruption sanctions regime. We are reviewing the tier 1 visas and will introduce the economic crime Bill, which Her Majesty’s Treasury is working on.

Daniel Kawczynski Portrait Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Foreign Secretary is absolutely correct to highlight that our partners in central and eastern Europe—Poland and the Baltic states—recognise the leadership that Britain is providing with regard to these new tensions, but they also recognise the increasing divergence between London and Berlin in how to tackle Russia over this nefarious behaviour. Does she agree that it is important now to go back to our German partners and re-emphasise the need for them to stop the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which gives the Russians an umbilical cord to the heart of Europe? We import less than 1.5% of our gas requirements from Russia, whereas the Germans import more than 60% of their energy requirements from Moscow.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I had a discussion with my colleague Foreign Minister Baerbock last week about precisely this issue, and I welcome the statements from her and Chancellor Scholz about Nord Stream 2, in which they were very clear that it will not go ahead in the event of a Russian incursion. We do need to reduce dependence on Russian gas. I welcome the work that the United States is doing to look at how supplies can be augmented, and we are working with partners across the middle east. This is a strategic issue for Europe and we do need to reduce dependence on Russian gas—there is no doubt about it.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

More than £4 million has been donated to Tory MPs, including to a quarter of the current Cabinet, by Russian-linked individuals—this is dirty money from an evil regime. Is that why the Government have so far failed to take the Russian threat to our democracy seriously? How will what has been announced today help? Will the Foreign Secretary pledge to this House to fly at least business class to Moscow in the next couple of weeks, instead of using half a million pounds of taxpayers’ money, as she did when she flew to Australia?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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We have Government planes for a reason: for Government Ministers to use on Government business.

Robert Jenrick Portrait Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)
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In addition to targeted sanctions against Kremlin-linked individuals, our friends and allies in the US Senate are considering three further steps. The first is sanctioning Russian state banks, to prevent the flow of foreign capital. The second is having export controls on key technologies that are useful to the Kremlin. Thirdly, a number of Senators, led by Ted Cruz, are proposing a return to sanctions against Nord Stream itself, and related entities and individuals linked to the organisation. Will each of those be included in the Bill that my right hon. Friend intends to bring forward?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I have said, the legislation we are bringing forward is very wide-ranging and targets a number of sectors and interests in relation to the Kremlin, and I assure my right hon. Friend that nothing is off the table.

Ben Bradshaw Portrait Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Our American allies have just issued an unprecedented rebuke to the British Government, saying that any new sanctions would be worthless as long as London remains the main international laundromat for dirty Russian money. I remember that this Prime Minister tried to stop the publication of the Russia report and removed the Whip from the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who now chairs the Intelligence and Security Committee, when his own patsy candidate failed to get the job. I am still not clear, however, whether the Foreign Secretary is reinstating the economic crime Bill, because that has not been said on the record from the Dispatch Box before. If she is, can the admirable Lord Agnew have his job back, please?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I have said already this afternoon, we remain committed to bringing in the economic crime Bill, and the Prime Minister committed that that would be done this year.

Richard Drax Portrait Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
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My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) rather took my thunder, but this is such an important point that I would like to reiterate: if ever there was a reason to take a fresh look at NATO and its role and responsibilities, this threat by Russia of an invasion in Europe must be it. Has the Foreign Secretary spoken to the other NATO countries that are not spending the 2%? Has she been given reassurance that they will spend 2%? If they have not given her that, what does she intend to do to make them spend 2% of their GDP?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are already spending more than 2% of our GDP; we are the largest European NATO supplier of troops and security around Europe, and we want to see others step up, because, as my hon. Friend says, these threats are getting worse. We have seen an increase in aggression and we need to see all NATO allies step up and fulfil their commitments.

Caroline Lucas Portrait Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government’s attempt to claim some kind of moral high ground on Russian sanctions is sheer hypocrisy when the right hon. Lady’s party has accepted donations from oligarchs and her Government have turned a blind eye to the Kremlin meddling in our democracy and have held open the door to Putin’s cronies to have their money laundered in London. Can she tell us whether that is why there is still this delay to the promised register of overseas entities, which would shine a light on Russian ownership of British property? In her replies to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran), she showed a remarkable lack of urgency on whether the economic crime Bill might be introduced sometime this year. That is not good enough when we are talking about what pressure can be brought to bear on Russia now.

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
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I had hoped that the hon. Lady would welcome the fact that we are introducing our toughest ever sanctions regime on Russia, which will be in place by 10 February. We are acting with urgency to deal with this crisis.

Greg Smith Portrait Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I warmly welcome the actions my right hon. Friend is taking. Nobody should think they are safe from sanctions, so will she confirm that this new legislation will ensure that any company of interest to the Kremlin will be able to be targeted so there can be nowhere for Putin’s oligarchs to hide?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We will be able to target any company linked to the Russian state that engages in business of economic significance to the Russian state or in a sector of strategic significance. We will be able not just to target those entities but to go after those who own or control them, so the net is very wide.

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am going to give the Foreign Secretary a third chance. Does she agree that the UK Government will continue to look weak on the Russian threat while Tory MPs and Members of the other House continue to accept cash from Russian-linked individuals?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I had hoped that the hon. Lady would welcome the package of tough sanctions that we are introducing today. In fact, that is what our allies across the world are saying.

Nickie Aiken Portrait Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Foreign Secretary for her statement. She is absolutely right that we need to widen the breadth of sanctions on Russia to reflect the reality on the ground. In my constituency those realities are very clear to see—the dirty money invested week in, week out. Can she assure me that this Government will follow through on the legislation and ensure that the financial and professional services involved will be held to account, and that we follow a “banks and tanks” strategy in fighting corruption and Russia’s aggression towards Ukraine and across Europe?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have taken steps to deal with illicit finance and corrupt elites through the Criminal Finances Act 2017 and our anti-corruption sanctions regime. I have already talked about the commitment to introduce legislation through the economic crime Bill. Today is about showing that the UK is ready with a package of severe sanctions that can target any organisation or individual who is remotely linked or of economic significance to the Russian state, showing there will be nowhere to hide in the event of an incursion into Ukraine. This is about making sure that those economic consequences are as severe as possible. My hon. Friend makes excellent points on the broader issue, but today we are talking about deterring Vladimir Putin from an incursion into Ukraine.

Andy Slaughter Portrait Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Why have the Government delayed the economic crime Bill? Why are they doing nothing to stop lawfare in the UK courts? Why is the Serious Fraud Office being sued by oligarchs rather than indicting them? Without the laws, the courts and the prosecutors to tackle corruption and dirty money here in Londongrad, are the Foreign Secretary’s threats not empty and vacuous? Will she ensure that the Tories’ Russian gold finds its way back to Moscow?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have already given the steps that Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Ministry of Justice are taking on the issues that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. The sanctions regime is under direct Foreign Office control. That is why we are taking action as soon as we can, by 10 February, to get these sanctions in place so that we can exercise them in the event of an incursion.

Luke Evans Portrait Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for her announcement on sanctions. She said in her statement that the UK will join discussions at the UN Security Council to apply further pressure on Russia. Could she explain what she hopes to gain out of this and what success would look like?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Russia is a member of the permanent Security Council and needs to be held to account for its aggressive actions with respect to Ukraine.

Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, too, welcome the broad tenet of the Foreign Secretary’s statement, the details of which included fast jets going to bolster NATO forces in Europe. Has she had discussions with the Ministry of Defence to ensure that when, quite appropriately, bolstering Ukraine’s eastern flank, we do not create any problems for the United Kingdom’s northern flank by redeploying quick reaction alert Typhoon aircraft from either Lossiemouth or Coningsby?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am in regular touch with the Defence Secretary to make sure that, of course, we protect UK defence interests at the same time as we provide air support, particularly around the Black sea region, to make sure that we are working with our NATO allies to keep a free and safe Europe.

Jonathan Edwards Portrait Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

President Putin is reported as saying:

“Whoever becomes the leader in this sphere”—

of artificial intelligence—

“will become the ruler of the world.”

Given the dangers posed by lethal autonomous weapons, will the Foreign Secretary explain why the British Government seem reluctant to support efforts to place legally binding instruments to control their development and use?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are shortly about to launch our international tech strategy, which will talk precisely about setting standards in areas like artificial intelligence and quantum. It is important that it is the free world that is setting those standards rather than their being dictated by authoritarian regimes.

Margaret Ferrier Portrait Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

There are concerns in the food industry that a Russian invasion of Ukraine could lead to food shortages in the UK, as Ukraine is becoming a significant exporter of goods such as cereal products to the UK. What plans do the Government have to protect UK food supplies if Putin opts to disregard sanctions and presses ahead?

Elizabeth Truss Portrait Elizabeth Truss
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have an important trade relationship with Ukraine, which is why it is so important that we support Ukraine economically. That is why we have built in extra trade co-operation, and why it is so important that we deter the Russian Government from an incursion into Ukraine.

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would like to thank the Foreign Secretary for her statement and for taking five minutes shorter than an hour to answer questions.

Vaccination: Condition of Deployment

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:18
Sajid Javid Portrait The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Sajid Javid)
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With permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to update the House on vaccination as a condition of deployment.

Last Thursday, we woke up to a new phase of this pandemic as we returned to plan A. People are no longer advised to work from home. Face coverings are no longer mandatory. Organisations no longer have to require the NHS covid pass. And, from today, there is no limit on the number of visitors allowed in care homes.

Week by week, we are carefully moving our covid response from being one of rules and restrictions back to being one of personal responsibility. We are able to do this because of the defences that we have built throughout this pandemic—in vaccines and antivirals, in testing and surveillance.

We know, of course, that covid-19 is here to stay. While some countries remain stuck on a zero-covid strategy and others think about how they will safely open up, here we are showing the way forward and showing the world what successfully living with covid looks like. The principle we are applying is the same principle that has guided our actions throughout this pandemic, and that is to achieve the maximum protection of public health with the minimum intrusion in people’s everyday lives. To me, that is what learning to live with covid is all about.

Even with this progress, we must of course remain vigilant. While overall cases and hospitalisations continue to fall, we are seeing rises in cases in primary and secondary schoolchildren. Part of living with covid means living with new variants and subvariants. Our world-class health surveillance operations are currently keeping a close watch on a subvariant of omicron called BA.2, which the UK Health Security Agency has marked as a variant under investigation—one below a variant of concern. Some 1,072 genomically confirmed cases of BA.2 have been identified in England. While early data from Denmark suggests that BA.2 may be more transmissible, there is currently no evidence that it is any more severe. In addition, an initial analysis of vaccine effectiveness against BA.2 reveals a similar level of protection against symptomatic infection compared with BA.1—the original variant of omicron—which underlines, once again, the importance of being vaccinated against covid-19 and the imperative to get the booster if you are eligible.

Nowhere is vaccination more important than in our health and social care system. Throughout this pandemic, we have always put the safety of vulnerable people first, and we always will do. It has always been this Government’s expectation that everyone gets vaccinated against covid-19, especially those people working in health and social care settings, who have a professional duty to do so. When designing policy, there will always be a balance of opportunities and risks, and responsible policy making must take that balance into account.

When we consulted on vaccination as a condition of deployment in health and wider social care settings, the evidence showed that the vaccine effectiveness against infection from the dominant delta variant was between 65% and 80%, depending on which of the vaccines people had received. It was clear that vaccination was the very best way to keep vulnerable people safe from delta because, quite simply, if you are not infected, you cannot infect someone else. Balanced against this clear benefit was the risk that there would always be some people who would not do the responsible thing and would choose to remain unvaccinated—and, in doing so, choose to walk away from their jobs in health and care. Despite its being their choice to leave their jobs, we have to consider the impact on the workforce in NHS and social care settings, especially at a time when we already have a shortage of workers and near full employment across the economy.

In December, I argued—and this House overwhelmingly agreed—that the weight of clinical evidence in favour of vaccination as a condition of deployment outweighed the risks to the workforce. It was the right policy at the time, supported by the clinical evidence, and the Government make no apology for it. It has also proved to be the right policy in retrospect, given the severity of delta. Since we launched the consultation on vaccination as a condition of deployment in the NHS and wider social care settings in September, there has been a net increase of 127,000 people working across the NHS who have done the right thing and got jabbed, becoming part of the 19 out of 20 NHS workers who have done their professional duty. During the same time, we have also seen a net increase of 32,000 people getting jabbed in social care—22,000 people in care homes and 10,000 people working in domiciliary care.

I am grateful to the millions of health and care colleagues who have come forward to do the right thing, and the health and care leaders who have supported them. Together, they have played a vital part in raising our wall of protection even higher, and keeping thousands of vulnerable people out of hospital this winter.

When we laid the November regulations, the delta variant represented 99% of infections. A few short weeks later, we discovered omicron, which has now become the dominant variant in the UK, representing over 99% of infections. Incredibly, over a third of the UK’s total number of covid-19 cases have happened in just the last eight weeks. Given that delta has been replaced, it is only right that our policy on vaccination as a condition of deployment be reviewed. I therefore asked for fresh advice, including from the UK Health Security Agency and England’s chief medical officer.

In weighing up the risks and opportunity of this policy once again, there are two new factors. The first is that our population as a whole is now better protected against hospitalisation from covid-19. Omicron’s increased infectiousness means that at the peak of the recent winter spike one in 15 people had a covid-19 infection, according to the Office for National Statistics. Around 24% of England’s population has had at least one positive covid-19 test, and as of today in England 84% of people over 12 have had a primary course of vaccines and 64% have been boosted, including over 90% of over-50s. The second factor is that the dominant variant, omicron, is intrinsically less severe. When taken together with the first factor—greater population protection—the evidence shows that the risk of presentation to emergency care or hospital admission with omicron is approximately half of that for delta.

Given those dramatic changes, it is not only right but responsible to revisit the balance of risks and opportunities that guided our original decision last year. While vaccination remains our very best line of defence against covid-19, I believe that it is no longer proportionate to require vaccination as a condition of deployment through statute. So today I am announcing that we will launch a consultation on ending vaccination as a condition of deployment in health and all social care settings. Subject to the responses and the will of this House, the Government will revoke the regulations. I have always been clear that our rules must remain proportionate and balanced, and of course, should we see another dramatic change in the virus, it would be only responsible to review the policy again.

Some basic facts remain. Vaccines save lives, and everyone working in health and social care has a professional duty to be vaccinated against covid-19. So although we will seek to end vaccination as a condition of deployment in health and social care settings using statute, I am taking the following steps. First, I have written to professional regulators operating across health to ask them to urgently review current guidance to registrants on vaccinations including covid-19 to emphasise their professional responsibilities in this respect. Secondly, I have asked the NHS to review its policies on the hiring of new staff and deployment of existing staff, taking into account their vaccination status. Thirdly, I have asked my officials to consult on updating my Department’s code of practice, which applies to all Care Quality Commission-registered providers of healthcare and social care settings in England. They will consult on strengthening requirements in relation to covid-19, including reflecting the latest advice on infection protection control.

Finally, our vital work to promote vaccine uptake continues. I am sure that the whole House will join me in thanking NHS trusts and care providers for their relentless efforts in putting patient safety first. I also thank the shadow Health Secretary and the Opposition for their support of the Government’s approach to this policy area. One of the reasons that we have the highest vaccine uptake rates in the world is the confidence in our vaccines that comes from this place and from both sides of the House. We may not agree on everything, but when it comes to vaccination, together we have put the national interest first. It is now in our national interest to embark on this new phase of the pandemic, when we keep the British people safe while showing the world how we can successfully learn to live with covid-19.

I commend this statement to the House.

18:29
Wes Streeting Portrait Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
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I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement, and also for his regular contact and briefings on this issue at both ministerial and official level. He is right to say that Labour worked with the Government to ensure maximum take-up of the vaccine across health and social care, and we do not regret that decision. Indeed, we welcome the decision that he has come to today.

Let me be clear from the start: vaccines are safe, effective, and the best defence that we have against the virus. Whether compulsory or not, it remains the professional duty of all NHS and care workers to get themselves vaccinated, just as it is the duty of all of us to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and our society from the greater spread of infections and hospitalisations, and from the need for harsh restrictions that impact on our lives, livelihoods and liberties. The debate over this policy is about whether the state should mandate the vaccine for health and care staff, or whether it should take a voluntary approach. It is not a discussion about the need to get vaccinated, the arguments for which are overwhelmingly one-sided. With five million people in the UK still to have their first jab, we cannot afford to take our foot off the pedal in getting the message out.

Labour Members supported the initial policy in early December. Since then we have seen a significant increase in vaccinations among NHS staff, with tens of thousands more staff now protected. I say an enormous thank you to the NHS trusts that worked tirelessly to persuade hesitant staff of the need to get vaccinated, and to those colleagues who have given up considerable time to have supportive conversations with their peers. I thank the health unions and royal colleges which, despite their misgivings about the mandatory nature of the policy, nonetheless did everything they could to encourage their members to get vaccinated.

Clearly, things have now moved on, in terms of both our overall levels of infections, and in our understanding of this latest variant. It has also become clear that to follow through with this policy could see tens of thousands of staff forced to leave their roles, at a time when our health service is already understaffed and overstretched—indeed, that has been a particular anxiety on these Benches and right across the House. However, efforts must continue to persuade those staff who are still hesitant.

What lessons have the Secretary of State and his Department learned from the Welsh Government, where 95% of staff were double jabbed by November without any mandate? What can we learn from the Welsh Government’s approach to persuasion, and how can we emulate their success? In light of today’s decision, it is all the more important that health and care workers are empowered to do the right thing and isolate when they need to, without the fear of being unable to feed their families. One in five care homes do not pay staff their full wages to isolate. If we are to learn to live well with covid, that must change. Labour’s plan for living well with covid includes making all workers eligible for proper levels of sick pay. Why have the Government still not sorted this? I appreciate that those are also Treasury issues, but that approach is penny-wise and pound-foolish when it comes to protecting public health.

The Labour party supported this measure in December, put the national interest before party politics, and made sure it had the votes needed to pass through the House. We understand the difficulties faced by the Government in coming to today’s decision, and we will continue to be as constructive and helpful as we can be in a national crisis, just as Labour has been throughout the past two years. I welcome very much what the Secretary of State said this afternoon about welcoming Labour support for this policy, and indeed about our wider support for the vaccination roll-out, but let me end on a point of criticism, which is not in any way levelled at the Secretary of State. Given the way that the Labour party has handled its approach to the pandemic response, and the constructive way that we sought to work with the Government, it is not unreasonable to expect the Prime Minister, and others in his party, to stop pretending that that has not been the case. Perhaps he might stop seeking to turn the pandemic—the greatest threat we have faced to our nation for more than 70 years—into a party political mud fight. Surely we can do better than that, and I would like to think that the Secretary of State and I have been leading by example.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Once again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his approach to this policy area and to vaccinations in general. He is absolutely right in the comments he has made on that and the importance of working across the House and working together on such an important issue in the national interest, as he has done. I very much welcome that approach. Not all countries take such an approach to such an important issue, and they have sadly paid a price for that. I believe that one of the reasons we have such high vaccine uptake in this country is the cross-party approach that has been taken, and I thank him once again for that.

The hon. Gentleman is also right to point to the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines, as independently set out by our world-class regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, and other reputable regulators across the world. No one should doubt the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines. It is because of the success of this country’s vaccination programme that we are able to open up again in the way that we have and to start returning to normal life.

Very importantly for the people we are talking about today—the fantastic people working in the NHS and across social care—one of the key reasons we have been able to keep down the pressure on the NHS in particular is that so many people have come forward and got vaccinated. That is why it remains troubling that some people, in particular in the NHS, still refuse to get vaccinated, even when they know it is safe and effective, and do not do the responsible thing and act in a professional way.

We will keep going to work with those people in a positive way to try to persuade them about the benefits of vaccination and to provide them with the information they need. We will continue with the work of one-to-one meetings with clinicians if necessary and encouraging them to make that positive choice, but it will be about encouragement and helping them to come to the right decision. We will learn and look at what other parts of the UK have done in making sure that we have the very best practice and have learned from each other.

Finally, on the point that the hon. Gentleman raised about sick pay, I understand what he is saying. I just point to the fact that we have kept rules in place to allow sick pay to be claimed from day one, and a hardship fund is in place to give extra support where needed.

Jeremy Hunt Portrait Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend knows that my instinct is to support him in the very difficult decisions he has to take in a pandemic, and I think he is doing an excellent job, but I have some concerns about today’s announcement. I think they may not be shared widely in the House, so I hope colleagues will indulge me if I explain why. Frontline workers have done an extraordinary job in this pandemic, but I have yet to meet a single one who believes that anyone in contact with patients has a right to put them at increased risk by not having a vaccine, unless there is a medical exemption. My concern is that having marched the NHS to the top of the hill and having won a very important patient safety argument, we are now doing a U-turn. What will happen the next time the Secretary of State wants to introduce an important vaccine, for example for flu, and make it mandatory? Is not the real reason that we have made this decision that we have a staffing crisis that the Government have still not brought forward their plans to address? When will those plans be brought forward?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend speaks with great experience, and I have the utmost respect for him, especially given the many years he spent successfully running this Department. I understand what he says, and I hope he will understand, having listened carefully to the statement, that when the facts change, it is right for the Government to review the policy and determine whether it is still proportionate. Many things have changed in the past couple of months with respect to covid, but the one big thing that has changed is that since this policy was originally implemented, we have moved from 99% of covid infections being delta to 99% being omicron. That is why we have had to change approach.

Martyn Day Portrait Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his statement and for advance sight of it. I welcome the intention to U-turn on vaccination as a condition of employment. I have never supported mandatory vaccination for workers—a policy that, I am pleased to say, Scotland has avoided going down. Adding a further 70,000 or more vacancies to the existing 100,000 in NHS England would be a serious act of self-sabotage.

Vaccines remain one of the best defences against covid-19, as they reduce the likelihood of infection and therefore break the chain of transmission, and are something we should all continue to encourage. The Scottish Government have pursued an “educate and encourage” strategy in their vaccine roll-out, which has resulted in a higher vaccine take-up to date through entirely voluntary means. The five most vaccinated areas in the UK are all in Scotland.

Why are the UK Government taking so long to drop their damaging policy and adopt the Scottish practice? When will the consultation conclude and a decision finally be made? The UK Government’s vaccination mandate may have alienated many NHS staff, so what will be done to repair relations and encourage continued voluntary vaccine take-up?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is right to draw the House’s attention to the importance of vaccination, as other Members have done. As was reflected in his remarks, it is the UK’s first line of defence against covid. Thankfully, the UK has put in place many other defences, such as the antivirals that are used across the UK and our testing and surveillance regime, but vaccines are the first line of defence. He is right to talk about encouraging as many people as we possibly can to take up the vaccine if they have so far not done so, whether they work in health and social care or otherwise. He is right that the best general approach is to educate and inform, and that is what we will continue to do.

Esther McVey Portrait Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

What a disappointment this statement is. Having read the newspapers, I was hoping to be able to come here and congratulate the Secretary of State on the Government’s recent conversion to common sense in halting the mandatory vaccination of NHS workers. Instead, he is making a half-and-half decision today, knowing that the sword of Damocles hangs over those 100,000 NHS workers, because they have to have their first vaccination on Thursday. He will then be sending them on a pathway to unemployment, along with the thousands of care workers who have already lost their jobs. What I want to know is what he is now going to do to help those thousands of people get a job, and what compensation he will pay them.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to clarify the point raised by my right hon. Friend. The Government have made a decision on this matter, which I hope I was very clear about in my statement, but for statutory reasons there needs to be a consultation. There will be a two-week consultation and then a statutory instrument will be presented to the House and will be subject to the will of the House.

The Government have made their decision on this, and the Department will write today to all NHS trusts and contact care home providers and wider social care settings, such as domiciliary care, to make it clear that the deadline my right hon. Friend referred to is no longer applicable. I am very happy to make that clear. She has raised an important point. While the decision is subject to this House, there will be no further enforcement of the regulations, for the reasons I have set out today.

Rachael Maskell Portrait Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Health Secretary has not only bullied and threatened NHS staff at a time when they are so fragile, but ignored the royal colleges and all the trade unions when they said that the initial statutory instruments should not have been made. In fact, he has not made it clear today that both will be withdrawn, so I ask him to make that clear. I also ask him to say whether or not all those staff who have lost their employment to date will be reinstated with continuity of employment, including their pensions and other conditions?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to answer those questions. First, the Government’s decision is to revoke both statutory instruments; I am happy to confirm that. On those who, following the statutory instrument on care home settings, chose not to get vaccinated and preferred to leave their job than do the professional thing and get vaccinated, that was their choice, and that does not change. That policy was right at the time—I have set out the reasons why—because the dominant variant was delta. Should those people choose to apply for a job in a care home once the restrictions have been lifted, that is a decision for them. However, I continue to encourage them to make the right positive decision and get vaccinated.

Charles Walker Portrait Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
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I promised my wife that I would stop being angry, but I just cannot. Long before vaccines existed, these people who we cast as pariahs were day in, day out, coming into hospitals and care homes and holding the hands of the dying because their children and grandchildren could not. They were doing that while most people in this House were sitting on their backsides safely at home. Now, by all means, let us encourage people to get vaccines, but the language used, suggesting that these people who, for whatever reason—they may have needle phobia, like me—have chosen not to get vaccinated are somehow deserving of our bile is a disgrace. It does not reflect badly on them; it reflects badly on us.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

What I hear from my hon. Friend, and I very much agree, is that vaccines are safe and effective. They remain our most important weapon in fighting the pandemic and, as more people come forward and choose to get vaccinated, that is not only good for them but right for the rest of society, their loved ones and everyone else around them. That is especially so if the people around them—they might be in a care setting or a hospital—are more vulnerable than most of the population. The best way forward is therefore to encourage everyone now to continue to think of the vaccine in that positive, sensible way and to come forward.

Daisy Cooper Portrait Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
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I welcome this change of tack because I, like many others, opposed the compulsory vaccination policy. However, I fear that, in the care sector, the damage has been done—there are reports that about 40,000 people have already left—and it is damaging patient safety. With the change of tack, will the Secretary of State tell us his plans to get more carers quickly into the sector? With regard to the shortage occupation list, how many carers does he hope to recruit, and by when?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Lady for that good question. She referenced 40,000 people having left care homes as a result of vaccine as a condition of deployment, and I can give her more information on that. While there is no exact data because care homes are independent and the people who work in them are not employed directly by the state, the Department’s best estimate, which is from the industry, is that the change in workforce during the final half of last year was a fall of 19,300. We do not believe that the 40,000 number is representative—the best proxy number is 19,300. Having said that, no one would want to see anyone leaving the care home sector when, as she rightly identified, we need more people coming forward. That is why we put in place a £162.5 million retention fund before omicron, and we have added to that fund by more than £300 million during omicron. We are also supporting the sector in having the largest recruitment campaign that it has ever run.

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the change of policy. In order to reassure both patients and staff about safety, what progress can the Secretary of State report to the House on better air extraction, air cleaning and ultraviolet filtration? I think that we need to control the virus without telling people exactly what they have to do in their own health treatments.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
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As always, my right hon. Friend has asked a very good question. He will know that infection protection control measures have been in place during the pandemic; they change along with the pandemic over time, depending on the risk profile, and that applies to care settings. The Government have supported care homes with hundreds of millions of pounds to make adaptations and changes and to implement these measures, and I know that many care settings have taken advantage of those funds to provide, for instance, air filtration and ventilation. That is the kind of support that the Government will continue to give.

Hilary Benn Portrait Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This has always been a difficult issue, because it involves balancing two different sets of rights, and I think that the Secretary of State has made a sensible choice. He talked about changing circumstances, but the one thing that has not changed is the fact that a considerable number of NHS staff remain unvaccinated. In reaching this decision, what representations did he receive from NHS leaders about the impact that those staff having to leave—which they will not now have to do—would have on the ability of the NHS to cope, and was that a factor in the reaching of the decision? I think most of us sitting here today know that it probably was.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hoped that my statement had been clear enough to answer a question such as that asked by the right hon. Gentleman, but I am happy to emphasise what I said earlier. As I said, when coming to any decision, but certainly this decision, we must bear in mind that there are benefits and there are costs. The costs to which I referred related to the fact that obviously some people would no longer be employed in the NHS or in care settings, and that balance remains important. Because of the change in the variant and real change in the benefit part of the equation, the scales tilted, and that is why I no longer think that the policy as set out is proportionate.

Miriam Cates Portrait Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement, and thank him for listening to those of us on both sides of the House who have raised concerns about this policy. Of course it is right to change policy in the light of new evidence—particularly, in this case, the evidence that omicron is less severe and that vaccines are no longer as effective in reducing transmission. However, as reducing transmission was the only reason for pushing ahead with the vaccination of children, will the Secretary of State now commit himself to a review of that policy, given that children are at almost no risk from covid but there are small but potentially significant risks, both known and unknown—particularly to boys—from covid vaccinations?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for her introductory remarks. As for her question about children and vaccines, she will know that when it comes to vaccination in general, we take advice from the expert committee of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which, as she would rightly expect, keeps vaccination decisions under review at all times.

Jeremy Corbyn Portrait Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hope that the Secretary of State can recognise the very important message given by the unions and the royal colleges only seven weeks ago about the short-sightedness of a compulsion policy, which would drive people—vital workers—out of the care sector and the NHS. I hope that we will never go down the road of compulsory vaccination. I support vaccination, but persuasion is much more powerful than compulsion. Persuasion, when people understand it, is a far more powerful message to get across.

Will the Secretary of State tell us what is the cost of each vaccine to each resident of this country, what is the cost of its manufacture, and whether he has any plans for the patent to be moved into public ownership so that the massive profiteering from these vaccinations can end and the public can get the benefit of it?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Where I agree with the right hon. Gentleman is on the importance of persuasion in vaccination. Where I am afraid I disagree with him is on the idea that public ownership of patents connected with vaccinations or drug development in general would help. In fact, I think it would be a backward step and we would not see the innovation that has saved lives.

Julian Lewis Portrait Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Many patients in hospital will presumably be protected by having undertaken their own vaccination process, but some will be clinically extremely vulnerable because of compromised immune systems. Is the Secretary of State saying that these people are at no greater risk of being made seriously ill or dying as a result of coming into contact with unvaccinated frontline staff? If they are at greater risk, is there something else that can be done to lessen that risk, such as a testing regime, before that contact takes place?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is another good question from my right hon. Friend. I will say two things. First, this is not about zero risk; it is about less risk. What I am saying is that, based on the advice that I have received and for the reasons that I set out in my statement, whether or not someone is immunosuppressed, omicron, in general, represents less risk. It is also right to ask whether other measures could be taken to provide additional support. Yes, they can, which is why I have asked the NHS to review its own policies on the deployment of staff in certain settings, and that would include interaction with the most vulnerable patients.

Clive Lewis Portrait Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Secretary of State for today’s U-turn. I know that many of my constituents, both NHS staff and patients, will be deeply grateful for it. We all wanted to see as many NHS staff as possible take up the vaccine, but no one wanted to see people being forced to take the vaccine, especially after all that they have done for us. Can the Secretary of State promise the House that, if there are future outbreaks, he will listen to the overwhelming body of public health evidence, which says that carrot, not stick, persuasion, not enforcement, has better results when it comes to vaccine take-up?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

This Government will always listen to the evidence and be guided by it, as they have been today.

Huw Merriman Portrait Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Unlike a number of my colleagues here, I did actually vote in favour of these measures back in December. I did so because I felt that it was important that those going into hospital had the reassurance that those caring for them were fully protected. I understand the Secretary of State’s point that the matter has now changed, but I regret that that is so, because I still feel that my vote was the correct one. May I ask my right hon. Friend this specific question just to assist me to get to the right place with him? He mentions that he asked for fresh advice from the health regulators, and no doubt they advised that this was no longer proportionate in these changed circumstances. Did that precipitate a change in the legal position—that being one of the limbs for judicial review—which means that there is a legal requirement for our having to change course as well?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I understand my hon. Friend’s question. When the evidence changes—or, in this case, the change in the variant from delta to omicron—Ministers receive different advice. That advice always comes with up-to-date legal analysis as well, and that legal analysis is certainly taken into account when making a decision.

Paula Barker Portrait Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Like the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), I too am angry. I am angry because, in December last year, I twice asked the Secretary of State to pause and let us do this via consensus, rather than by making it mandatory. The language we use in this place is extremely important, and the Secretary of State has spoken this evening about care workers and their “choice” to be sacked. What I say is that they did not choose to be sacked. This Government chose not to give them appropriate personal protective equipment at the height of the pandemic. This Government chose to discharge elderly patients into care homes at the height of the pandemic. That is the real choice that this Government have made. Will the Secretary of State re-evaluate? Will he go back and apologise to those care workers, some of the lowest paid in our labour market, and ensure that they have continuity of service and of pension contributions?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Where the hon. Lady and I will absolutely agree is on the service that we have seen as a country from care home workers and domiciliary care workers over the pandemic. It has been the test of a lifetime for anyone working in that sector and each and every one of those people has risen to that challenge and provided the best care that they could in the most difficult circumstances. As the hon. Lady will know, there is an inquiry into the pandemic, where I am sure that many of the issues will be looked at, such as whether better support could have been provided under the circumstances. Looking ahead, however, it is important that we continue to do everything we can to continue to support that vital sector.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision, which is important for the continuity and delivery of our local services. We were faced with losing more than 3,000 health and care staff in Nottinghamshire alone in a few weeks’ time, so this will massively take the pressure off come March and April. I urge him to go further if possible: I do not think it is fair to present the decision that care home workers made in November as leaving by choice. The truth is that we need those staff and more if we are to implement the reforms that the Government are asking the care sector to deliver on at a local level in the coming months, rather than having to focus all our energy on everyday firefighting. Will he change the view that he has stated so far, reach out to those staff and try to help them back into the sector?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. As I said, we need more people in care and in the NHS. We have a waiting list in both sectors. There are many people out there who will have experience and will want to do that. He asked whether we can work with the sector to reach out and to support and help people to re-enter it where they wish to do so. Of course we can. At the same time, we can continue to give any information that may be helpful and necessary to help to persuade those who remain unvaccinated to make that positive choice and get vaccinated.

Andy Slaughter Portrait Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hospital trust, Imperial College, has done its best to care for staff in the past two years. Like other trusts, it has found it difficult to implement what was, until a few moments ago, Government policy, but it did so because it was good clinical practice to protect its patients and it gave confidence to the general public, who might say, “Why should I get vaccinated if my doctor won’t?” What advice does the Secretary of State have for the hospitals and care homes, and their staff and ex-staff, who may now feel betrayed?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will say two things to anyone involved in NHS trusts, especially those who were leading the campaign to encourage their colleagues to get vaccinated. First, I say a huge thanks for what they have done and what they have achieved so far. I mentioned earlier that, since we consulted on the original regulations, 127,000 more people across the NHS have been vaccinated, which represents in total some 19 out of every 20 employees in the NHS. That is a phenomenal achievement. My thanks go to all those working in the NHS who have helped to make that happen and are still helping to make that happen.

Secondly, I say to those people that their work, with our support—the support of the Government and my Department—continues. Despite the changes today, for the reasons that I have set out, it is still hugely important to get vaccinated. We must keep reaching out positively to those who have not yet, for whatever reason, chosen to do so by helping them to make the right decision.

Chris Green Portrait Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. He made several references to conditions of employment and he finished by asking regulators, “to urgently review current guidance to registrants on vaccinations”.

What will he do to ensure that that does not become a compulsion for vaccinations by other means?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

The regulators I referred to are independent, so all I can do is ask them to review their regulations. My hon. Friend might be aware that some regulators, such as the General Medical Council, already have requirements for vaccinations in certain settings, which is a decision for them. As he will know, however, the independent regulators usually set out guidance and allow some flexibility in how it is interpreted in certain settings.

Bob Seely Portrait Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Secretary of State for this decision. I opposed the policy in December for reasons that have been eloquently laid out by Members such as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), although I was respectful of the Government’s position. Overall, persuasion is better than coercion, and honesty is better than the manipulative games that we now hear the nudge unit was playing and that were entirely counterproductive. Will the Secretary of State reassure me that, now we have some breathing space, we can do a bit of forward thinking and prepare a plan for this winter that protects the vulnerable and enables the NHS to continue to treat people but does so without resorting to lockdowns? The idea that lockdown is a cost-free, risk-free option is absolutely untrue, as we have now seen from the 100,000 children who have come off school rolls and disappeared. Lockdown carries an extraordinarily heavy price, and frankly a lot of the modelling and forecasting behind it have been extremely flawed.

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

If we look at the experience from the omicron wave, we can see that we had the fewest restrictions on people’s freedom of any large country in Europe, yet we have been the first country to come out of the omicron wave and hit the peak. I believe the main reason for that is that we rightly focused on pharmaceutical defences: vaccines in particular, of course, as well as antivirals and testing. There is a lot to be learned from that.

Steve Baker Portrait Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

Though we may have arrived here by different routes, I am grateful that today my right hon. Friend and I agree on this policy area. We also agree that vaccination is the better choice for everybody for whom it is safe if they do not have a pre-existing condition. Can I just pick up the issue of language? He has used a range of tones when talking about people. He has used some quite soft language about persuasion, and we have heard a range of perspectives on that, but he has also used some very strident language, which my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) criticised—rightly, I think. Can I ask my right hon. Friend to set out for the House what his attitude is to the issue of bodily autonomy and using the law to compromise it? If he does respect people’s bodily autonomy, can I ask him please to select language that is respectful of that choice?

Sajid Javid Portrait Sajid Javid
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am pleased that my hon. Friend and I agree on what has been set out today, but he is right to raise what he has said in the way that he has. Language is vitally important, especially on issues of this great significance, when we are asking people to be injected with something, to put a needle to themselves and to get vaccinated, for all the right reasons. Of course some people will be more resistant than others to doing that, for whatever reason, and will have some kind of hesitancy. It is our duty to work with them. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that when we reach for a statute in relation to vaccination, there needs to be a very, very high bar. He has heard me say at this Dispatch Box more than once that I would never support universal vaccination or any kind of statute. This policy I have talked about today required a very high bar to be reached. At the time we introduced the policy, I believed that the bar was reached, for the reasons I have set out about protecting vulnerable people. Now I believe it would be disproportionate, and that is why I have set this change out today. What has not changed is the importance of vaccination, and for those people who can get vaccinated and who are not medically exempt from it for some reason, we should continue to work together across this House to encourage them to do so and work with them in the most positive way possible, because they would be better off and we would all be better off.

Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement.

ADVANCED RESEARCH AND INVENTION AGENCY (WAYS AND MEANS)

Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill, it is expedient to authorise any charges to tax resulting from the Advanced Research and Invention Agency being a public authority for the purposes of Chapter 10 of Part 2 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003.—(Gareth Johnson.)

Advanced Research and Innovation Agency Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 23 March 2021 (Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill (Programme) in the last Session of Parliament):
Consideration of Lords Amendments
1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.
Subsequent stages
2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.
3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Gareth Johnson.)
Question agreed to.
Consideration of Lords amendments
Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is engaged by Lords amendments 1, 12 and 14. If the House agrees to any of these Lords amendments, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.

Clause 2

ARIA’s functions

19:09
Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker
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With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 15.

George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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I am delighted that the Bill to create this exciting new agency has returned to this House and that I am able to speak to it for the first time in my role as Minister for Science, Research and Innovation. I pay tribute to my ministerial colleague Lord Callanan for his work on the Bill in the other place. Not for the first time in matters scientific, their lordships have kept our Minister very busy on the Front Bench. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway), who so capably led the Bill when it was first before the House.

There are 15 amendments for our consideration tonight. Fourteen of those were tabled or supported by the Government. I will summarise them quickly. Amendments 2 to 8 relate to changes the Government made in response to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill. In doing so, we demonstrated the seriousness with which we take the DPRRC’s recommendations and the Government’s commitment to acting upon them. The effect of those amendments is to omit clause 10, which contained a broader power to make consequential provision, and to replace it with a narrower, more specific power in clause 8. The new power can be used only in consequence of regulations dissolving ARIA. Other amendments are needed to tidy up the rest of the Bill and reflect that change. I hope that the changes are, in general, welcome.

Amendments 9 and 10 remove a power for ARIA to pay pensions and gratuities determined by the Secretary of State to non-executive members. We have tested that thoroughly and are content that in ARIA’s specific case, that power is not needed. Again, the two amendments reflect the usual process of improving the Bill in response to scrutiny and the expertise that colleagues here—and in particular in the other place—have brought to bear.

Amendments 11 and 13 remove the amendments previously included in the Bill that had the effect of reserving ARIA. I have had productive discussions on this with my ministerial colleagues in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, to reiterate the importance of ARIA and our broader science policy to help strengthen the Union. I am delighted that they share my vision and ambition for ARIA and that we have reached an agreement on the independence of ARIA—a memorandum of understanding that is a shared commitment to safeguard the organisation’s most important characteristics, and which means the reservations are not needed. I am delighted to be able to report that legislative consent motions have been passed in all three devolved legislatures on the basis of that agreement, and I similarly commend it to the House.

Government amendments 12, 14 and 15 apply some relevant obligations to ARIA that would normally apply automatically to public authorities listed in the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The amendments provide for ARIA to be treated as a public authority for the purposes of the Data Protection Act 2018, the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003, the Enterprise Act 2016 and the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. They also amend various regulations and the UK GDPR to reflect that. That ensures that ARIA is treated in the same way as a public organisation normally would be treated in those important areas.

Daniel Zeichner Portrait Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
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The Minister will know from previous discussions that the question of freedom of information has come up before. Would it not be much simpler just to make ARIA subject to the Freedom of Information Act? In the current climate, would that not reassure the public?

George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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It may reassure the public, but we also have to take into consideration the fact that to succeed, world-class scientists have been recruited to ARIA to lead in cutting-edge science. That very small staff need to be sure that they will not be tied up answering 101—often spurious—freedom of information requests from the media, who are keen on running stories. We want to make sure the agency is accountable properly but not bogged down in what can be hugely onerous freedom of information requests.

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
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In that connection, could the Minister give the House some brief guidance on what he, as the accountable Minister, would expect by way of discussion and influence over corporate plans and budgets and onward reporting to the House?

George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that question, and he will not be surprised to know that it is one I have also been asking since coming to this role. The point of ARIA is to be a new agency for doing new science in new ways, and it has been structured specifically to avoid meddling Ministers, even those with a good idea, and meddling officials, even those with good intent, and to create an agency that is free.

My right hon. Friend asks an important question. As we appoint the chief executive officer and the chair, the framework agreement will set out, a bit like a subscription agreement, the agency’s operating parameters, which will be published in due course. Each year ARIA will have to report on its stated plans. Crucially, as is so often not the case in scientific endeavour, ARIA will report where happy failure has occurred so that we do not continue to pour more money into scientific programmes that have not succeeded, which I know will reassure him. We want ARIA to be free to be honest about that, and not embarrassed. ARIA will be annually accountable through the framework agreement.

Finally, Lords amendment 1 deals with the conditions that ARIA may attach to its financial support. This arises from a series of important discussions in the other place relating to ARIA’s duty to commercialise intellectual property that may be generated, which I am keen to address properly. However, the amendment, as drafted, does not actually prevent ARIA from doing anything; it adds examples of conditions that ARIA may attach to financial support, but ARIA already has the general power to do just that. Legally, the amendment simply represents a drafting change. As such, we cannot accept it, but we understand and acknowledge the importance of the point that the noble Lord Browne had in mind.

It is our firm belief that, although it is not appropriate at this stage to specify ARIA’s contracting and granting arrangements in legislation, we recognise the substance of the concerns underlying the amendment: namely, that ARIA should have a duty to the taxpayer to ensure it is not haemorrhaging intellectual property of value to the UK. I will outline our position on that.

The amendment focuses principally on overseas acquisition of IP relating to the principles on which the Government intervene in foreign takeovers of UK businesses, particularly where those businesses have benefited from public investment in research and development activities. The National Security and Investment Act 2021, which fully commenced earlier this month, provides just such a framework, and it marks the biggest upgrade of investment screening in the UK for 20 years.

The NSI Act covers relevant sectors, such as quantum technologies and synthetic biology, that have benefited from significant public investment, and it permits the Government to scrutinise acquisitions on national security grounds. This new investment screening regime supports the UK’s world-leading reputation as an attractive place to invest, and it has been debated extensively in both Houses very recently. We do not believe that revisiting those debates today would be productive.

Although the NSI Act provides a statutory framework, a much broader strand of work is under way. As Science Minister, I take very seriously the security of our academic and research community. A number of measures have been taken in the past few months and years to strengthen our protections. We are working closely with the sector to help it identify and address risks from overseas collaborations, while supporting academic freedom of thought and institutional independence.

Members do not need me to tell them that intellectual property is incredibly valuable and we increasingly face both sovereign and industrial espionage. It is important that we are able to support our universities to be aware of those risks and to avoid them. The Bill already provides the Secretary of State with a broad power of direction over ARIA on issues of national security, which provides a strong mechanism to intervene in its activities in the unlikely event it is necessary to do so.

Stephen Flynn Portrait Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
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I welcome the Minister to the Dispatch Box for the first time on this Bill. He is saying that ARIA can already do this, so the Government do not need to legislate in this regard, but that the Government would, none the less, be keen to see ARIA do it. There seems to be a discrepancy in that thought process.

George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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There is no discrepancy. I will explain why but, essentially, the Bill already sets out ARIA’s statutory responsibility to generate economic return for the UK, and the hon. Gentleman will know, as I do from my career negotiating intellectual property agreements, that at this stage it would be wholly inappropriate to mandate in statute the form that these intellectual property agreements will take. To be blunt, we do not yet know what programmes the chair and chief executive will put in place. It is only when we know the sort of science that ARIA is doing that we will possibly be in a position, through the framework agreement, to set out the appropriate ways to ensure that value is maximised.

Security issues will also be a core consideration in ARIA’s governance arrangements in the framework agreement to ensure its effective functioning as an organisation. I confirm to colleagues that the framework document, which deals with those issues, will include obligations on ARIA to work closely with our national security apparatus. That is prudent to ensure that ARIA’s research is protected from hostile states and actors and to stay connected to the Government’s wider agenda on strategic technological advantage.

The Government’s chief scientist, who will be on the ARIA board, will bring intelligence and expertise across security issues within Government, supported by the new Office for Science and Technology Strategy and the National Science and Technology Council. ARIA will of course have internal expertise to advise its board and programme managers, while also working with recipients of its funding in universities and businesses on research-specific security issues. That will be vital for ARIA to stay at the forefront of responding to the challenging nature of the UK’s interests in this area.

There is also the question of how ARIA responds to the UK’s strategic interests in science and technology more generally where they may not quite fall under the national security umbrella. The integrated review, the creation of the new OSTS and the National Science and Technology Council, on which I sit, outline our ambition to ensure that there is a serious, strategic machinery of government commitment to the strategic industrial advantage of UK science and technology. That is a fundamental priority for me and the Government more broadly.

ARIA is nestled within that structure and is required to be aware of all those priorities, but we must keep its role in perspective. It will be only a small part of a landscape that we are explicitly seeking to make independent of Government and free to explore new funding approaches. The whole point of ARIA is to be a new agency and to do new science in new ways.

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
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The Minister is being admirably blunt about keeping interfering Ministers and officials from controlling or influencing ARIA, but there is also influence from the scientific establishment, which has its own programmes and would like the sums of money in ARIA to go to them. Given the structure of the board, is he satisfied that ARIA will maintain its independence not just from the civil service and Ministers, but from the scientific establishment?

George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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The hon. Member raises a very important point. Yes, I am satisfied, and for this reason: the way in which the agency has been established through the Bill and our plans to appoint the CEO and the chair on the basis that they will set out a very bold vision for ARIA to be the agency for new science in new ways. All the support that we are providing is specifically designed to allow them to operate in an environment where they can draw on the very best of UK science infrastructure and expertise, but not find themselves bound by either the short-term grant application process that dominates or the often substantial interests seeking investment in their own field. We will be able to attract the people we intend to attract because of that freedom. For that reason, I am confident—as that will be set out in the framework agreement and held to account by the board of ARIA and the scientific advisory board—that we will be able to ensure that that is the case.

Although ARIA will operate independently, it will be guided by key obligations regarding economic and UK benefit. ARIA must, in all its activity, have regard to the economic growth or economic benefit in the UK, alongside other considerations. That statutory obligation is set out clearly in clause 2(6), and it is right that that is in the Bill. Public investment in R&D must drive long-term socioeconomic benefit and deliver value to UK taxpayers. ARIA will be scrutinised by Government and Parliament on how effectively it fulfils its functions, including that one.

I can confirm that mechanisms for that scrutiny will be in the framework agreement. This includes requiring an internal evaluation framework for ARIA programmes—that deals with the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)—and looking at, for example, their expected benefits and alignment with the organisation’s strategic objectives. It also includes setting the terms on which ARIA produces annual accounts and reporting, through which ARIA’s CEO will be accountable to Parliament for how the resources allocated to it are used. The National Audit Office will be able to examine the value for money of ARIA’s activities, and we in the Government must be assured of that value, on which ARIA’s future funding will depend. Everyone involved is clear about that.

There are many ways in which the obligations that I have set out might be felt in respect of how ARIA operates. For example, ARIA may employ contracting arrangements that require funding recipients either to seek to exploit the outputs in the UK or forfeit the funding, as other funders routinely do. In some cases, ARIA may retain IP rights—it has that freedom—and will be able to draw on specialist support from the new Government office for technology transfer. That will help ARIA to extract the greatest possible value from its knowledge assets.

In general, we expect ARIA programmes to produce long-term, deep scientific benefits that are felt over the long term, and to support the highest-risk research where there is a clear role for public funding. It would be premature to seek to legislate in statute at this point, before the appointment of the CEO and the chair or the establishment of the funding programme plan. In addition to that being premature, given that its very freedoms will be a major attraction for people to come from around the world to work at the agency, we are concerned that to be seen to shackle those freedoms in statute may well disincentivise the most innovative scientists and researchers from coming to join programmes.

Finally, this issue encompasses the entirety of our R&D system and approach to investment in UK science and technology and we are extremely focused on it, but changes to ARIA alone cannot alter the wider environment. We must ensure that funding from ARIA is not subject to more stringent conditions than other public R&D funders, because that would undermine the independence and agility that are the defining characteristics of this exciting initiative for UK science.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
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I welcome the Minister to his place in leading on this important Bill and echo his thanks to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway). I also thank colleagues in the other place who have worked so hard to improve the Bill. In particular, I thank my noble Friend Lord Browne for his successful and much-needed amendment to protect Britain’s intellectual property.

The UK has a proud tradition in science and innovation. We are renowned around the world for the scientific breakthroughs and discoveries that have pushed humanity forwards. From the discovery of penicillin to the invention of Stephenson’s Rocket—in Newcastle—UK science has again and again pushed the boundaries of humanity’s knowledge.

UK science is not only inspiring but key to our health and that of our economy, as the pandemic has shown. Our university research base alone contributes £95 billion to the economy, supporting nearly 1 million jobs in science institutes, charities and businesses of all sizes. We have many innovative start-ups throughout the country that require only the right support to contribute to the innovation nation that our history, economy, security and future prosperity all demand. That is why it is so important that we get the Advanced Research and Invention Agency right.

ARIA, originally the brainchild of very-much-former adviser Dominic Cummings, is positioned as a high-risk, high-reward research agency, based on the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency in the US. Labour welcomed ARIA and continues to support it—it has great potential to fill a gap in the UK’s research and development landscape and help deliver fantastic inventions—but we are clear that the benefits of ARIA’s investments must be felt in the UK. We are equally clear that without Lords amendment 1, that may not be the case.

Lords amendment 1 would give ARIA the option to treat its financial support to a business as convertible into an equity interest in the business and thus to benefit from intellectual property created with ARIA’s support. It would also enable ARIA to require consent during the 10 years following financial or resource support, if the business intended to transfer intellectual property abroad or to transfer a controlling interest to a business not resident in the UK.

18:24
We have to start by acknowledging that the UK does not provide a sufficiently supportive environment for innovation start-ups to thrive. That is why we have already lost so many of them. Too often, tech start-ups face a choice between relocating outside the UK and being bought out by a larger multinational, and the UK loses out. In 2014, Britain had probably the most important and groundbreaking artificial intelligence company in the world, DeepMind, but instead of capitalising on this cutting-edge technology and instead of introducing an effective support system for start-ups, the Government allowed it to be sold to Google for £400 million, with no investigation or action. In 2020, early investor Humayun Sheikh estimated that DeepMind would be worth $30 billion now. That is a huge reward on the investment, but not one that has gone to UK taxpayers or UK citizens, and the UK is now in effect losing out on billions in economic benefits.
In the Labour party, we want to support our start-ups. The Government—and, indeed, the Minister in his comments—have tried to claim that Lords amendment 1 is not needed because they believe that the National Security and Investment Act already gives sufficient powers to scrutinise and intervene in takeover bids. However, the Minister must acknowledge that, despite our attempts to include economic security in the NSI Bill, the Government insisted on a much narrower definition of national security. While it is progress that the Government are reflecting national security in takeovers and mergers policy, for which we have been calling for a long time, the NSI Act does not address the issue of intellectual property and its economic value.
The Government have also argued that the amendment will discourage companies from participating in ARIA because it is important for them to own their intellectual property, but what innovative start-ups really need is support so that they do not have to relocate to scale up. PsiQuantum, a world-leading quantum computing company credited with building the world’s first useful quantum company, started in Bristol, but had to relocate to Silicon valley to access greater support. With this amendment, companies can benefit from ARIA’s support and the UK can benefit from the innovation, instead of seeing it move abroad.
The Minister has set out that he shares our concerns, but I am afraid that he does not really seem to have a plan to address them. He hints that the framework agreement setting out ARIA’s functions will do so under some kind of general requirement to work with Government, but without any detail. In many ways, ARIA is emblematic of the Government’s science strategy—big promises followed by a lack of detail, a lack of transparency and a surfeit of confusion. Conservative peer Lord Lansley made the point:
“If ARIA is to have a strategy for the funding it receives from the Government, it needs to know in advance whether it can retain revenue derived from investment… That is where I want the most specific assurances from my noble friend that the Government will provide that opportunity to ARIA.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 December 2021; Vol. 817, c. 82, 83.]
I agree with him.
We only want what is truly in the interests of our nation. We are not wedded to a particular form of words and we are willing to discuss an alternative that protects IP, but we need assurances that inventions generated by ARIA support, financial or otherwise, will benefit the UK, and I am afraid to say that the Minister just really has not given such assurances.
George Freeman Portrait George Freeman
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To assist the hon. Lady before she decides whether to divide the House, I just wanted to make it very clear that there is a statutory obligation on ARIA, set out clearly in clause 2(6), that it must have regard to

“economic growth, or an economic benefit, in the United Kingdom”

as a core part of its statutory duties. We simply want to make sure that the leadership team, through the framework agreement, have the freedom to set out what the right mechanism is, rather than to mandate it now.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
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I thank the Minister for that intervention, which demonstrates that he is with us in spirit but he just does not want to be with us in actual legislation. There is something of a confusion of thought there. I am very familiar with the clauses that require ARIA to have regard to economic benefit, but if he thinks this is something ARIA should be doing and should look to do—again, as we have said, this amendment is enabling and not prescriptive—surely he should be happy to make that clear. If he thinks it is too constraining for ARIA to do this, he ought to make that clear. He is the Minister and this Bill should reflect what the intent is, and the intent should be to ensure that the benefits from intellectual property generated, created and invented in the UK should be felt in the UK.

Lords amendments 2 to 8 limit ministerial powers to dissolve ARIA, in response to the delegated powers in the Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill, and we will not oppose those amendments. They prohibit the Minister from making consequential amendments to primary legislation and from dissolving ARIA in the first 10 years. Lords amendments 9 and 10 remove the Minister’s powers to determine a pension or gratuity for non-executive ARIA members. It should be noted that the Minister appoints non-executive members to ARIA’s board, and it is refreshing to see a Conservative Government taking steps to limit cronyism in advance of major losses to the public purse. Lords amendments 11 and 13 mean that ARIA will no longer be treated a reserved matter in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we also do not oppose this. Labour is clear that devolved voices must be heard and that scientific opportunities must be spread across the UK, so the consent of devolved Administrations is crucial.

Lords amendments 12, 14 and 15 provide for ARIA to be treated as a public body under the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003, the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, the Enterprise Act 2016 and the Data Protection Act 2018. My colleague in the other place, Baroness Chapman of Darlington, pointed out, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner), that this would not be necessary if ARIA was subject to freedom of information requests, something that Labour has repeatedly called for. The Government were so busy trying to ensure that ARIA would not be treated as a public body for the purposes of FOI that they had to tack on these amendments. That these amendments were tabled only at the Committee stage in the Lords points to Government negligence. We have here a Government too busy trying to avoid accountability to do their job properly— why does that sound so familiar?

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer
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Does my hon. Friend agree that, during the covid epidemic we have been through, some of the mistakes that have been made came about because the Government were not as open as they could have been with the scientific advice, and that FOI and openness are of value to the scientific method itself? To exclude this body from FOI potentially detracts from the science. We saw another example of this 11 years ago, with the “climategate” emails at the University of East Anglia, when people did not operate openly and it caused scientific problems.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
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My hon. Friend makes two very important points. First, many of this Government’s mistakes have been due to lack of transparency, not only in the original policy of giving contracts to friends but in the follow-up of explaining those actions. Transparency is always a very good thing. Secondly, the scientific method is about openness. That is how ideas, inventions and progress are made in science. Critically, DARPA, on which ARIA is supposedly based, is subject to the freedom of information process and finds that that helps it in its work.

To conclude, Labour welcomes ARIA. Science and research can be the engine of progress for our society, and we welcome investment in our sciences. That investment, however, must benefit the people who pay for it: the British public. Without Lords amendment 1, we have no assurances that that will happen. If the Government want Britain to be a science superpower, why will they not protect British science and tech IP?

Stephen Flynn Portrait Stephen Flynn
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In the greatest traditions of this House, I intend to be brief, which I am sure will be to everyone’s pleasure.

The biggest issue before us is, of course, Lords amendment 1. I listened closely to what the Minister had to say, but I remain to be convinced. He has paid deference to the clause, which says, if I recall correctly, that ARIA “must have regard to”, while the amendment simply seeks to ensure that ARIA “must”. That is a strong difference to which the Minister should give cognisance, particularly given that, in effect, we could be talking about the crown jewels. We are all hopeful that ARIA will be an impressive institution that will reap rewards for all of us right across the four nations of this United Kingdom—while we remain within it, of course. I find it a little contemptuous that the Government do not want to be on that side of the argument.

The topic of equity has been raised. There are some very famous examples. For instance, though this is slightly different, the US Government provided a significant amount of money in a loan to Tesla. That money was subsequently paid back a number of years ago, prior to Tesla becoming one of the world’s wealthiest companies and, indeed, to Elon Musk becoming one of the world’s wealthiest men. There should be a lesson in that for the Government, and it is one that they should heed.

From what I have heard, the Minister seems to be in broad agreement. He thinks that what is in place will allow this to happen in any case. I hope that over the course of the remaining debate, to which I am sure there will be an extensive number of contributions, he may be swayed to agree to Lords amendment 1.

Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
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I, too, will keep my comments brief. The Liberal Democrats have been supportive of this Bill from the start, since its Second Reading. We very much welcome the opportunity and, indeed, the new vehicle to get funding into science and technology in this country.

I join the hon. Members for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) and for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), however, in saying that the absolute priority must be to ensure that that investment stays in this country and benefits the people, including the investors, those who may benefit from employment and, indeed, every single one of us who seeks to benefit from the new innovation for which this money may well pay. A couple of weeks ago I visited my former employers at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington, where I saw for myself the incredible work that is taking place on battery technology and hydrogen technology. There is so much potential for the future, but this country has traditionally been really bad at converting that incredible R&D skill into entrepreneurism and innovation and at building sustainable businesses. That is why I think it is so important that we support the Lords amendment, and it is certainly why we will vote against the Government’s motion.

Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.

19:44

Division 178

Ayes: 304

Noes: 208

Lords amendment 1 disagreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 15 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 12 and 14.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to draw up a Reason to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendment 1;
That George Freeman, Craig Whittaker, Felicity Buchan, Mark Fletcher, Chi Onwurah, Jessica Morden and Stephen Flynn be members of the Committee;
That George Freeman be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee.
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Gareth Johnson.)
Question agreed to.
Committee to withdraw immediately; reason to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
Dormant Assets Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No.2)
Ordered,
That the Order of 6 December 2021 (Dormant Assets) Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows—
Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted.
Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order
Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.—(Gareth Johnson.)
Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee
New Clause 1
Authorised reclaim funds: duty to assess and report
‘(1) The Secretary of State must make an annual assessment of the health and governance of authorised reclaim funds. The assessment must be reported to Parliament.
(2) The first report under subsection (1) must be laid 12 months after—
(a) any restriction imposed under section 18A(1)(a) of the 2008 Act comes into force, or
(b) the provision in section 18A(1)(b) of that Act comes into force,
whichever occurs first.
(3) An assessment under subsection (1) must include an evaluation of the risk of insolvency of the fund.’—(Alex Davies-Jones.)
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to assess the health and governance of reclaim funds regularly in relation to the risk of insolvency, and to report on this annually to Parliament.
Brought up, and read the First time.
20:00
Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
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I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
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With this it will be convenient to consider Government amendments 1 and 2.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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I rise to speak to new clause 1 in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith). As the Bill has moved through this House and the other place, I have been pleased by the progress that has been made, although there is still work to be done to ensure that dormant assets are distributed and governed effectively. Colleagues will be aware that the Bill will expand the current dormant assets scheme, which was first introduced by a Labour Government in 2008. The Government define dormant assets as a financial product, such as a bank account, that has not been used for many years and which the provider has been unable to reunite with its owner, despite efforts aligned with industry best practice.

In 2008, the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act was passed to provide a system to distribute dormant assets to good causes. Currently, 24 banks and building societies participate in the reclaim fund scheme, but Labour has always intended that the dormant assets scheme would broaden the financial products to which that legislation applies.

Although the Bill makes some progress and Labour supports the need for consultation, we urge that the scheme go much further. With the right safeguards in place to find the owners of assets, unclaimed winnings from gambling, pension assets and physical assets could be considered in the future, too. While I am grateful to the Minister for his frankness throughout the passage of this Bill, I must once again put on record that while Labour is generally supportive of the Bill, we urge that further consideration be given to incorporating pension assets into the scheme. While I recognise that the Minister has highlighted that occupational pension schemes and personal pension schemes whose owners were automatically enrolled are excluded, or out of scope of the Bill, I hope that in the future those assets will receive further consideration.

The core principles of any scheme must remain clear. Attempts should first be made to reunite assets with their rightful owners before transferring them. Owners should always be able to reclaim their funds, and participation must ultimately be voluntary. Labour is also clear that any funds released to the dormant assets scheme must not be used as a substitute for Government spending. We know that the increasing cost of living is impacting so many people across the country, and this Bill presents an important opportunity to release further funding and to put right some of the wrongs. On that point, I pay particular tribute to colleagues on the all-party parliamentary group for “left behind” neighbourhoods, who have been closely focused on the importance of dormant asset funding for vital community projects in the most left-behind parts of the country.

With that in mind, I place on record Labour’s thoughts on community wealth funds, which the Minister knows I feel passionately about. In the other place, Labour secured an amendment that would have allowed the Secretary of State to include community wealth funds as recipients of funding. That amendment had cross-party support and was generally welcomed by the sector. The aim of including community wealth funds as recipients of funding is clear. The designated money would be designed to go towards social infrastructure to further the wellbeing of communities suffering from high levels of deprivation. I was disappointed and also surprised that the Government chose to remove a measure aimed at empowering communities, which is also at the heart of the Government’s well-rehearsed levelling-up agenda. That said, I welcome the Minister’s collaborative and candid approach throughout the latter stages of this Bill, and Labour welcomes the Government’s commitment to including community wealth funds as part of the first round of consultations, as outlined in the Government’s amendment 2.

We must now make sure that momentum is not lost on that important development, as community wealth funds are central to reviving so many communities up and down the country. With that in mind, central to any spend is the importance of governance and sustainability in ensuring that funds of this nature are maintained and in good health.

The Minister knows, and I believe agrees, that scrutiny of the reclaim fund is vital. That is why we have tabled new clause 1. Recent events have highlighted the need for a transparent approach to decisions made in this place and the other place, and it is therefore vital that the Government are held to account on the health and governance of reclaim funds, especially in relation to the potential for insolvency.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
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I endorse entirely what my hon. Friend is saying. Does she agree, given the lack of confidence in some of the decision-making processes that the Government have undertaken before allocating funds, that it is all the more reason why new clause 1 would have real public confidence?

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. Part of the reason we tabled new clause 1 is for openness and transparency, so that the public and this House can scrutinise exactly where this funding is being placed. Scrutiny is at the very heart of our jobs here in this place, and an annual report brought forward to Parliament, as new clause 1 stipulates, would be a crucial step forward.

Lastly, on Government amendment 1, I am pleased to see the clarification around collective scheme investments. It is vital that such investments remain eligible for incorporation into the reclaim fund. I hope to see further assets incorporated in the future, as I stipulated earlier.

Ultimately, Labour supports the Bill as our priority remains expanding the dormant assets scheme in line with our commitments first made in 2008. The programme so far has been extremely successful, and predictions suggest that expanding the scheme in such a way would identify about £3.7 billion of unclaimed assets, of which about £1.7 billion would be eligible for transfer to the reclaim fund. From that, £880 million would be repurposed for good causes across the UK. Labour supports that extremely welcome step, and I look forward to continuing to work with the Minister to tackle the challenges around extending the scheme to other assets. I hope that he will take on board our concerns about future governance of the fund, too.

Danny Kruger Portrait Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)
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I congratulate the Government on bringing forward the Bill. I recognise that, as the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) said, the release of dormant assets started with Labour and has been a cross-party achievement. My thanks, congratulations and appreciation also go to the financial institutions that have made the money available.

I am pleased with the Government’s proposals, including the consultation on the potential introduction of a community wealth fund. My congratulations and appreciation to the Minister for including that as a possibility, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Paul Howell) and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for their work in bringing that idea forward.

There are other great ideas—we could abolish personal debt by capitalising credit unions with this money or distribute it direct to community foundations in our constituencies—but I think that the community wealth fund is the best idea. I hope that we will see the money going into civil society and social infrastructure and into supporting the great levelling-up agenda to which the Government are committed. This is a tremendous Bill, and I very much support what the Government are doing.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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It is always a pleasure to speak in these debates. I thank the Government and the Minister for all they have done to make this Bill happen. Clauses 12 and 29, to which the Minister’s amendments refer, indicate things that the Democratic Unionist party wish to see, and I let him know that our party will support the Government tonight. However, I now wish to speak to new clause 1.

I agree that there must be further provision for dormant assets. Why not make good use of funds that would ultimately lie dormant unless further action was taken? The Bill aims to expand the current criteria, which will come with some great benefits, so it is great to speak on an important issue such as this. I welcome the Bill and look forward to the debate’s conclusion.

The Bill’s core purpose is to extend the dormant assets scheme to other financial assets, which could generate an additional £880 million of contributions. The figures are gigantic when we think on them, and they indicate where the Bill is going and what it can achieve. The Bill has three main functions: to track dormant account owners and reunite them with their account; to allow account owners to reclaim any amount they would have been eligible for; and to allow firms to partake as a voluntary process. The Bill will expand the assets involved further, creating a more sustainable economic success rate, make it a requirement for firms to get involved, and remove further financial restrictions. It is a win-win for the Government and for the Minister in particular.

The dormant assets scheme currently supports and boosts, by some £800 million, innovative, long-term programmes that aim to address some of the most pressing social and environmental issues. As I said, its expansion through the Bill will unlock an additional £880 million. It is stated that the Bill’s benefits will be felt across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I for one would like reassurances from the Minister that it will extend to Northern Ireland and that we will benefit as well. The potential for benefit in the UK mainland is great, but we also want to see it, if we can, in Northern Ireland.

Thus far, the scheme has benefited many foundations. The Youth Futures Foundation, which has undertaken significant work to tackle youth unemployment, got some £90 million, and Big Society Capital got over £400 million to tackle homelessness. These are great projects. The Bill makes money available to address social issues; how could anyone not say that that is great?

Also at the heart of this scheme is securing protections for those who own any of the financial assets involved. Dormant assets remain the property of their owners, who can reclaim any money owed to them in full at any time. In Northern Ireland, the Dormant Accounts Fund NI works to support the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector, and we can see the benefits immediately. In Northern Ireland more than 44,000 staff are employed in the sector, which accounts for 6% of the total Northern Ireland workforce. I would encourage all organisations to contact the National Lottery Community Fund to take advantage of the wonderful scheme that Northern Ireland has to offer.

I thank Members who have already contributed, and those who will contribute later, to a debate that has made clear the potential for a great economic impact following this expansion. I want to ensure that the devolved institutions can take advantage of this scheme as well, and that the funds generated in England are greater than those generated in Scotland and Northern Ireland. There must also be further engagement with local communities and smaller organisations to ensure that they are not left behind.

I acknowledge the benefits that the Bill has introduced so far, and I shall welcome further discussion and expansion to ensure that financial assets are not wasted and the money is put to good use. We have seen what the scheme can do; it can do more.

Claire Coutinho Portrait Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con)
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I support the Government’s proposal for a public consultation on distributions to a new community wealth fund. We talk often and rightly in this House about levelling up, particularly on the Government side of the House. It is right that this a priority for the Government, but too often we talk as if the work of levelling up were a job for Government alone. I firmly believe that the best decisions for communities are rarely made for them rather than by them. That is why we should treat communities across the country as the legitimate decision makers that they are. We all know that strong community leaders can transform a local community We will all have seen that on our patches. I could name many from East Surrey, including Janine Battersby in Woldingham, and Kay Hammond and the Calvers in Smallfield. With their dedication, charisma and get-up-and-go, they forge friendships, support those who need extra help, and put the local needs of their communities in front of those who might be able to meet them.

Let me give the House a brief example of this in action. I recently visited the residents group Ambition Lawrence Weston. On the edge of Bristol, Lawrence Weston had for too long had been used as a dumping ground for social housing tenants with complex needs. They were trapped in a negative cycle. Low housing costs made it attractive for the council to use it to temporarily house people, often with complex needs. That created disruption and fracturing within the community, which in turn drove low housing costs—and so the cycle went on.

However, with the support of the Local Trust’s Big Local community fund programme, the residents decided that they had had enough of things being done to them instead of for them. With some initial capital support from the community fund, they have transformed the area by building a new community centre, bringing in a new supermarket, introducing a local lettings policy, and bidding directly for Government funds themselves. They have a solar farm and even a wind turbine to tackle fuel poverty. I am in awe of that team. I have seen similar developments on my own patch: we have a community fund, Your Fund Surrey, and I am working with some brilliant people in Whiteley, Dino, Sarah and Marcus, who are pushing to set up their own community centre and are doing it brilliantly.

It was a relatively small amount of funding that made these developments possible, but that funding unleashed the really important thing: the leadership, ambition and energy of a group of remarkable, community-minded individuals, which has made such a difference. Without these funds, that would have been wasted. I believe that the community wealth fund can unlock that level of ambition and energy from individuals up and down the country, and I am pleased to support amendment 2.

Diana Johnson Portrait Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
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I welcome amendment 2 to clause 29. Those who have followed the passage of this Bill from its introduction in the other place to its Report stage today will know that along with other members of the all-party parliamentary group for “left behind” neighbourhoods, including my excellent co-chair, the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Paul Howell), I have long been advocating the establishment of a community wealth fund as part of the extended dormant assets scheme. The Government’s amendment proposes that a national consultation on the distribution of dormant assets should include consultation on the distribution of these moneys to a community wealth fund through including them on the existing list of beneficiaries set out in the original legislation on dormant assets. Such a fund would be aimed at developing social infrastructure in the most left-behind neighbourhoods of the country—neighbourhoods such as Bransholme and Orchard Park in my constituency of Hull North. They are communities that not only suffer from extreme levels of disadvantage and deprivation, but experience significant deficits in their local community fabric. As research from the all-party group has found, residents of these communities experience well-below average outcomes across a whole range of indicators. For example, our recent report on health inequalities found that people living in left-behind neighbourhoods have among the worst health outcomes in England, with growing disparities between them and the rest of the country, including the most shocking statistic that a person from one of those neighbourhoods was 46% more likely to die during the covid pandemic.

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If the Government want levelling up to be a success, they must reach these communities, which, for far too long, have missed out on their fair share of resources. Funding has to be for the long term, supporting transformational change at the neighbourhood level. The principles underlying the dormant assets legislation make it clear that the money from the scheme should be used to have a positive impact on society by contributing dormant assets for systematic change. I am very encouraged by the Government’s amendment, which upholds these principles for the use of dormant asset funding, and I very much welcome the inclusion in the Bill of consulting on the distribution to community wealth funds.
I am not alone in welcoming amendment 2. As well as parliamentarians from the all-party group, the proposal for a community wealth fund is backed by a cross-sector alliance of more than 470 organisations, which include 40 councils and combined authorities. I thank Local Trust, the secretariat for our all-party group, for all the work that it has done to promote the role of community wealth funds. I thank the Minister in particular for engaging with us on a cross-party basis and listening to the case that we have been making on behalf of those communities that have the least.
I very much welcome the Government’s amendment and look forward to working with the Minister and the Government on how a community wealth fund can be established and implemented swiftly on the conclusion of the national consultation. I hope that Members from across the House will support the amendment.
Paul Howell Portrait Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con)
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I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Devizes (Danny Kruger), and for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho), the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for the comments they have made already. I cannot state how much I welcome the Bill being brought to the House and how successful and efficient its passage has been. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), for tabling his amendment to clause 29. It represents an important step towards establishing a community wealth fund that would level up the social fabric of our most left-behind neighbourhoods across England.

I wish to say a few words on behalf of the all-party group. I know that the Government are committed to regenerating communities that suffer from both extreme levels of poverty and high levels of community need—communities such as Ferryhill, Trimdon and Thornley in my Sedgefield constituency, and communities across the country, from the north of England, through the midlands and down to the coastal communities on the south coast where residents often feel forgotten and cut off from support or funding.

I thank the Minister for meeting me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North, my fellow co-chair of the all-party group for left-behind neighbourhoods, to hear our representations and to understand the importance of what we are trying to achieve and how we can address this through the community wealth fund. Together, with other members of our all-party group, I look forward to a continued dialogue with Government and with colleagues across the House and in the other place on how such a fund can quickly be rolled out on swift passage of the Bill and the planned national consultation.

Numerous evidence sessions and research conducted by the all-party group since it was established in June 2020 have shone a light on the high levels of need and deprivation that exist in these communities and neighbourhoods and the issues faced by the residents who live there. Most recently, a report found that the people in these communities live shorter lives and spend more years in ill-health than those in the rest of the country. These findings have rightly captured the interests of national media and are another sobering testament to the fact that action is urgently needed to level up social, economic and environmental outcomes in deprived communities across the country. I look forward to what the levelling-up White Paper has to say about that, and I know that our all-party group will be keenly following those developments.

It is clear that transforming left-behind neighbourhoods is a long-term job. To deliver on that agenda, we need to go beyond physical infrastructure investment—welcome though that is in bringing hope to an area, as I know from my campaign work to restore local rail links such as Ferryhill station. Good local transport provision is key to levelling up, because it boosts connectivity in disconnected areas.

To level up successfully, however, and truly make a long-lasting difference to people’s lives, we must address the rebuilding of social infrastructure. Social infrastructure —places to meet, exchange ideas and take part in civic life—glues communities together. It underpins the vibrant local life that everyone seeks to be part of in their communities; it cements our trust and pride in our local heritage and the places where we live; and it provides us with something to rely on in times of crisis.

As the amendment explains, a community wealth fund would give long-term financial support for the provision of local amenities and other social infrastructure in a way that is led from the bottom up. As was said earlier, we must allow it to be done by people, not to people. As the Government have acknowledged on several occasions during the Bill’s passage, local people are best placed to identify what is needed to make their communities a better place to live.

In our evidence sessions, we heard first-hand the amazing work being done by communities up and down the country, and how powerful an impact local people can have when they work together to improve local outcomes with the right resources and support. We heard truly inspiring stories of communities in neighbourhoods from Bristol to Hartlepool taking the lead in levelling up their local area through widening access to opportunities and employment outcomes for young people, tackling fuel poverty and community led climate action.

Climate action is, of course, an increasingly important focus of activity, given the transition to net zero, and one where left-behind neighbourhoods are particularly at risk of falling further behind as a result of the economic restructuring under way. We therefore need to equip them with the confidence, capacity and resources through patient and long-term support to take action on what matters most to them and to transform their communities for the better. The community wealth fund proposal serves exactly that purpose. It builds on research and learning from previous regeneration policies, which all support the notion that community involvement is essential in achieving lasting change.

As already said, the community wealth fund is supported by more than 470 private, public and civic society organisations that have joined forces to form the community wealth fund alliance to call for the creation of such a fund. To reiterate what I said when presenting my ten-minute rule Bill in December, I believe that it would supercharge the levels of community confidence and capacity in left-behind areas.

In the long run, the social capital that is developed will be reflected in residents’ ability to create and lead sustainable strategies on how they can make change happen locally and tap into the wider opportunities offered on a regional level. In short, the investment would pay significant dividends in the longer run through funding from dormant assets at no extra cost to the public. We are presented with the opportunity to create a permanent endowment for communities in need.

For much of the hard work on the community wealth fund, I thank Local Trust and its team, particularly its chief executive Matt Leach. I know that the work is not over—in many respects, the real work starts now—and that I and others will no doubt be working closely with Local Trust to ensure that the fund becomes a reality.

I finish by thanking the Minister again for tabling the amendment to clause 29. It is heartening to hear the Government emphasise the importance of hyperlocal decision making for levelling up. I look forward to working with the Minister, the Government and our APPG to develop social infrastructure and boost civic pride in communities across the country.

John Nicolson Portrait John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
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I know that the Westminster press corps has been waiting for something exciting to happen in Parliament today, so I am glad to be able to help to provide it. It is good to see the Secretary of State in her place fresh from her “Channel 4 News” interview triumph.

The SNP welcomes the Bill and the expansion of the dormant assets scheme. The extra £880 million available as a result is welcome. The scheme has already delivered £745 million for social and environmental initiatives. By expanding the list of assets that qualify for the scheme, up to £1.7 billion more could be available for use.

I draw the Minister’s attention to the remarks made about the Bill in the other place, although I am sure that he is aware of them. Peers wanted clarity on its potential costs and more detailed impact assessments for the expanded scheme. Baroness Barker specifically warned that these details were important, so the scheme does not become a

“piggyback fund for government when times are tough.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 26 May 2021; Vol. 1039, c. 812.]

SNP Members welcome the Labour party amendment proposing an annual assessment of the health and governance of authorised reclaimed funds; this will, I think, help to assuage Baroness Barker’s concerns. Also, as a principle, the more scrutiny is given to this legislation, the better it will function.

It is good, of course, to see that the Bill makes some changes to distribution in England. Now the Secretary of State will have more freedom to spread assets through secondary legislation. That allows England to catch up with Scotland, which already has such an ability. As Lord Triesman highlighted in the other place, it was the example set by the devolved nations, whose innovative thinking in how they spend the funds allotted to them, that provided the impetus for the expansion of the scheme that the Bill presents. What the pandemic has shown is that the needs of the population can change dramatically and suddenly. Flexibility in secondary legislation is a useful tool to deal with that, and we must continue to ensure that there is adequate scrutiny.

We welcome the requirement for the Secretary of State to launch a public consultation and to consult the national lottery. The Community Fund must always be consulted before replacing or changing an order. However, it may be desirable to expand this consultation beyond the national lottery Community Fund and to include devolved Ministers responsible for spending in their nations, and representatives of the voluntary and social enterprise sectors.

It is reassuring to see that the expanded scheme will focus on reuniting owners with their dormant assets. With the expanded range of qualifying products, it is estimated that £3.7 billion-worth of products are lying dormant. For all the good that the schemes do for various charities, it is of the utmost importance that people are reunited with their assets. With the elderly and the vulnerable, especially those without digital skills, among those most likely to lose access or connection to their accounts in an increasingly digitised world, reunification efforts are more important than ever. That is why the SNP welcomes the enhanced tracing and verification measures, which could lead to £2 billion being returned to members of the public.

Nigel Huddleston Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston)
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I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contribution to the debate and for the constructive way in which everyone has engaged with the Bill throughout its passage. I thank in particular those who have spoken this evening. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) has made his points about community wealth funds frequently and passionately, as have the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Paul Howell) and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), whom I will acknowledge again later. I can confirm for the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that the expansion will cover Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) again spoke passionately about the impact that dormant assets funding will have on local communities. We should never forget that.

The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson) mentioned the principle of additionality, as did my opposite numbers on the Labour Front Bench, the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) and for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith). That principle underlies the Bill absolutely and completely. Regarding expansion, the Secretary of State is to conduct periodic reviews—within three years and then again in five years. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire mentioned that Scotland currently operates on a different basis, and that is one of the reasons why we have sought to expand where dormant assets money can be used.

I particularly thank my opposite numbers on the Labour Front Bench for their constructive contributions. Throughout, we have agreed on the principles. It is nice and good to see a Bill through its various stages with such a degree of consensus. Although we sometimes disagree on elements of detail, on the Bill’s overwhelming purpose and underlying principles there is complete agreement, and I appreciate the constructive way they have engaged with me.

However, I am afraid we do not believe that new clause 1—a proposal we debated in Committee—is necessary, largely on the basis that there is considerable oversight already, as I have explained before. Although the new clause refers to “authorised reclaim funds”, in practice it refers specifically to Reclaim Fund Ltd, as it is currently the only authorised reclaim fund in the United Kingdom. RFL publishes its audited annual reports and accounts on its website annually. In 2019 the Office for National Statistics classified RFL to the central Government subsector, and in April 2021 it therefore became a Treasury-owned arm’s length body.

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Now that RFL is an ALB, Parliament has greater oversight of its operations and financial information. RFL has been consolidated into HM Treasury’s accounts, which are laid before Parliament on a yearly basis. Furthermore, it is standard practice for the annual reports and accounts of ALBs, together with any report from the auditors, to be laid before Parliament by the sponsor Department. That will happen for the first time this year.
Parliament will therefore have the opportunity to view RFL’s full statutory accounts and, like all ALBs, RFL cannot publish its accounts until they have been laid before Parliament. The Comptroller and Auditor General, operating through the National Audit Office, will audit RFL’s accounts from financial year 2021-22. The Government do not recognise a need for bespoke arrangements under the Bill, as Parliament already has greater oversight of RFL’s operations and financial information. I assure Parliament that the Treasury has a robust governance structure in place that ensures that it has oversight of any potential risk of insolvency. For those reasons, I ask that the House does not support new clause 1.
Government amendment 1 is a minor and technical amendment that will ensure that the principle of full restitution continues to be upheld, ensuring that people can reclaim the amount they would have been owed had the transfer to the scheme not happened. It clarifies that money derived from collective scheme investments cannot be transferred into the scheme as client money.
Unfortunately, this amendment will have the effect of excluding collective scheme investments held by investment platforms and ISA fund managers from the scheme at this time. Bringing them into scope would require complex technical work, and we are working with the industry to understand if and how that can be accomplished in future under the power to extend the scheme through regulations.
Finally, Government amendment 2 responds to a key theme in the debates over community wealth funds, on which there has been considerable discussion this evening. It is testimony to the cross-party support for the scheme and the Bill that this issue has been talked about so much. I am very grateful for the spirit of positive collaboration that has been shown throughout the Bill’s stages. It is in that spirit that we are placing in the Bill our commitment to consult on community wealth funds.
I especially thank the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North and my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield, the co-chairs of the APPG for “left behind” neighbourhoods, for helping the Government reach this shared position, as well as all those who have made representations. In her speech, the right hon. Lady spoke about creating opportunity, aspiration and inclusivity. I assure her that that is the instruction from my Secretary of State every single day in the Department—it is absolutely what we are here to do.
We have heard both here and in the other place of the many benefits of a community wealth fund model. The Government are committed to giving this important cause its due consideration. Amendment 2 will ensure that the consultation, which will launch as soon as possible following Royal Assent, must include CWFs as an option, along with the current causes of youth, financial inclusion and social investment, which have had widespread support over the past decade.
I understand that there have been concerns that the consultation process will cause undue delays to the money being released. Let me assure hon. Members that that will not be the case. The consultation will not delay the release of funds; rather, it will run in parallel with other necessary preparations.
Once again, I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for the constructive and collaborative debate today. For the reasons I have outlined, I ask that the House does not support new clause 1 and supports the Government amendments.
Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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I wish to put on the record my thanks to hon. Members. I am encouraged by our collegiate debate, in stark contrast to the scenes on the Floor of the House earlier today. This evening’s debate shows that Parliament is at its best when we all work together across parties to deliver for our communities. More needs to be made of what we can do when we choose to work together.

As I mentioned, it was a Labour Government who first advanced legislation to place dormant assets from bank and building society accounts into the reclaim fund after significant efforts were made to contact the owners of those assets. For this reason, we are broadly supportive of the Bill and its main aims to expand the scheme. We therefore continue to welcome attempts to incorporate a commitment to community wealth funds, which have the potential to support communities across the nation that have been left behind in recent years.

The Minister knows that Labour Members outlined our concerns at length in Committee and on Report, and my colleagues and I made particular reference to some of the flaws in the Bill that we ultimately sought to correct. It is therefore somewhat disappointing that our concerns on the health and governance of the reclaim fund have not been taken on board, particularly as transparency and scrutiny are such essential facets of our work in this place.

In Committee, the Minister argued that Reclaim Fund Ltd is

“responsible for determining the appropriate proportion of funding that it can prudently release… The amount that RFL reserves for future repayment claims is…based on actuarial modelling and assessment of…risk factors, following guidance from the Financial Conduct Authority.”––[Official Report, Dormant Assets Public Bill Committee, 11 January 2022; c. 34-35.]

Of course, independence from the Government is vital but it is also important that the Secretary of State makes a regular assessment if this fund is to be available for future generations. I sincerely hope the Minister will take on board our concerns and discuss with the Secretary of State, who is in her place, and departmental colleagues the potential for an annual report, which would be extremely beneficial for those who rely on funds from this important scheme.

Although Labour supports the Bill, we believe the Government have missed several opportunities. I urge the Secretary of State to speed up the timetable to allow for these much-needed funds to reach the communities that need them most. I look forward to closely following the development of the first public consultation. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12

Transfer of eligible client money to reclaim fund

Amendment made: 1, page 12, line 9, at end insert—

“(4A) The reference in subsection (4)(b) to money that could be transferred as mentioned in section 8(1)(a) includes money held by an investment institution that is not within the definition in section 8(3) which—

(a) is proceeds of the conversion by the investment institution of a collective scheme investment into a right to payment of an amount, and

(b) could, if it were held by an investment institution falling within section 8(3), be transferred as mentioned in section 8(1)(a).”—(Craig Mackinlay.)

This amendment clarifies that money held by an investment institution not within clause 8(3) is not client money if it is the proceeds of a conversion to cash of a collective scheme investment and would be capable of being transferred to a reclaim fund if the holder was an investment institution within clause 8(3).

Clause 29

Distribution of dormant assets money for meeting English expenditure

Amendment made: 2, page 22, line 21, at end insert—

“(3A) In carrying out the first public consultation under subsection (3)(a) the Secretary of State must invite views as to whether the permitted distributions should be, or include, any one or more of the following—

(a) distributions for the purpose of the provision of services, facilities or opportunities to meet the needs of young people;

(b) distributions for the purpose of the development of individuals’ ability to manage their finances or the improvement of access to personal financial services;

(c) distributions to social investment wholesalers (within the meaning of section 18);

(d) distributions to community wealth funds.

(3B) For the purposes of subsection (3A) “community wealth fund” means a fund which gives long term financial support (whether directly or indirectly) for the provision of local amenities or other social infrastructure.”—(Craig Mackinlay.)

This amendment requires the first public consultation under section 18A to include the options of permitting the English dormant asset money distributions currently permitted by section 18(1) and distributions to community wealth funds, whether or not in addition to other permitted purposes or recipients.

Bill read the Third time and passed, with amendments.

Business of the House

Ordered,

That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion in the name of Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg relating to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority not later than one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for this Order; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; proceedings may continue, though opposed, until any hour, and may be entered upon after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Craig Mackinlay.)

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
[Relevant document: First Report of the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Appointment of IPSA Board Member, HC 1032, published 13 January 2022.]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will appoint Lea Paterson to the office of ordinary member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for a period of five years with effect from 14 March 2022.—(Stuart Andrew.)
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Jessica Morden Portrait Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
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In the absence of the Leader of the House, I rise to support the motion. There has been a fair and rigorous process to appoint the new member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority board to fill the vacancy created by Richard Lloyd, who has gone on to chair IPSA. I put on the record the official Opposition’s gratitude and thanks to the recruitment panel—particularly Philippa Helme, the chair of the panel—which was conducted with due care and attention. It was noted that Ms Paterson expressed to the recruitment panel her full commitment to public service as her primary motivator, and I know we wish her well as she begins her term on the IPSA board.

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John Spellar Portrait John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
- Parliament Live - Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will give the Leader of the House the time to recover from the other duties that he has been undertaking during the course of what has undoubtedly been a busy day.

I know nothing of Ms Lea Paterson, either favourable or unfavourable, although it is a reasonable CV. However, once again, the appointment is from a very narrow band of our society. Let us look at the document that specifies who can be on IPSA. By the way, all these experts that it has have not led to a better service for Members of the House. Quite frankly, it is absolutely shocking. The administrative burden on Members of Parliament gets worse and worse for what should be basic, simple jobs.

Let us look at the jobs. At least one Member must have held high judicial office—that has kept the lawyers happy, with a sinecure. Another one must be an auditor, so we have looked after the accountants. Another one is a person who has previously been a Member. This vacancy, however, is not specific; it is a general vacancy. Once again, did they go out and look across the broad spectrum of our society, for people with experience? Well, they went off to recruitment consultants Veredus, to scour beyond a mile of Westminster to find somebody who fitted the bill. I think that is extremely unlikely. I do not think they went to the north, the midlands, Scotland or Wales. They tried to reach out, by going to The Times appointments adverts, which does not actually have a very high circulation in Smethwick or, I expect, many other constituencies. It is an excellent newspaper, but it is not the way to reach many people in our society who have great experience.

Interestingly enough, many successful firms are far more adventurous in their recruitment processes. Who do they often look for to bring into the ranks of management? They look for capable shop stewards. Sometimes, in my experience they were the worst ones to deal with because they knew the ropes. These are people who really know how industry and society work: people who are running hospitals; ward sisters who are running wards; people who are managing our transport and logistics system. Those are people who understand how life works.

We are supposed to be running an expenses system, yet we are only recruiting, once again, from the great and the good. That is a problem across Government appointments and society. Then we wonder why government in this country is so badly managed? It is because we draw from such a narrow pool. I regret that the Opposition go along with that. There ought to be a root and branch examination to look at where we draw people from and what their work and life experience is. I hope that the Leader of the House, in dealing with the specific, will also address the general point I am making about how we should broaden our society.

20:42
Jacob Rees-Mogg Portrait The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I apologise for my momentary delay. The motion proposes that an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will appoint the person to the office of ordinary member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority for a period of five years, with effect from 14 March 2022.

The Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority produced a report that is tagged to the motion—its first report of 2022. I have no doubt that Members—the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) is certainly one of them—will have studied the report carefully before agreeing to the motion. I thank Philippa Helme for running the selection process diligently.

I would like to try to respond to what the right hon. Gentleman said, because it is important that people are drawn or apply from as wide a background as possible. That is something that he has tirelessly encouraged, and it goes along with the Government policy of trying to move Ministries outside SW1 to other parts of the country, to ensure greater involvement of people up and down the country from various degrees of experience. I know that Mr Speaker is keen to encourage applicants who do not necessarily fit the entirely traditional bill. I have to say, I think he thinks that only applicants from Lancashire would be suitable for most posts, whatever that post happens to be.

John Spellar Portrait John Spellar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I put it to the Leader of the House that time after time we get recommendations to appointments, and they all come from the same narrow social circle? It is not even, as it was with the traditional Tory party, that they come from industry. We almost never have anybody from industry; they are always from the professions and the City of London. The person we are being recommended was a journalist and then worked at the Bank of England. Could we not have somebody who worked for Jaguar Land Rover, either as a convenor or as the manager?

Jacob Rees-Mogg Portrait Mr Rees-Mogg
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point. I think we do want to fish in a bigger pool, and I think we should always be very concerned about what might broadly be called the quangocracy. We do not want this country run by people who pass and bounce from quango to quango, and pick up nice appointments along the way.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In response to the point the Leader of the House has just made, with the earnest desire he expresses to ensure that we broaden the pool, what examples can he point to of how the recruitment panel attempted to broaden the pool in this particular case?

Jacob Rees-Mogg Portrait Mr Rees-Mogg
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The process of the recruitment panel and what it looked at is all set out in its report. It had quite a large number of applicants, and it has to be said that Lea Paterson was the outstanding applicant by a long margin. She is not a characteristic quangocrat: that has not been her career. Until recently, she was the executive director of people and culture at the Bank of England. She is currently an independent member of the University of Warwick remuneration committee. She has previously held a number of senior management positions at the Bank of England, including being the director of independent evaluation. Before working for the Bank, she was a journalist, as economics editor, at The Times. I am afraid I have a particular bias in favour of The Times, its being the great newspaper of record and having fantastic editors, particularly in the 1970s. Journalists are not typical quangocrats, it has to be said—they are normally the ones throwing stones into the pools of the quangocracy—so I do not think that is the type of person we are appointing today.

However, I do take very seriously the criticisms from the right hon. Member for Warley. It is really important that we try to attract people of ability from across the country, because that is what we are trying to do as Members of Parliament. We come together from across the country to try to support a Government who will act with wisdom and discernment, which I am glad to say is what we have at the moment. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will continue his campaign, and I know that there are people sympathetic to it.

In the meantime, I am proud to be able to recommend this Humble Address to the House. If the appointment were to be made, Lea Paterson will serve on IPSA for five years. I commend this motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Business without Debate

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Delegated Legislation
Eleanor Laing Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
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I propose, with the leave of the House, that we take motions 8 and 9 together.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

National Health Service

That the draft Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, which were laid before this House on 14 December 2021, be approved.

Dangerous Drugs

That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2022, which was laid before this House on 15 December 2021, be approved.—(Craig Whittaker.)

Question agreed to.

Petition

NHS Hysteroscopy Treatment

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Commons Chamber
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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Craig Whittaker.)
20:50
Lyn Brown Portrait Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am, frankly, very disappointed to have to be raising this issue again in this House. This is the ninth time I have spoken about this, and it is more than eight years since my first speech on this topic. However, the problem of pain and trauma caused during hysteroscopies has not gone away. I want to pay tribute to the Campaign Against Painful Hysteroscopy, who do so much to let women know that they are not alone, that their experience has not been singular, that they were not making it up and they were not hysterical; they were experiencing great pain and discomfort. That campaign offers comfort and a productive outlet for their utterly justifiable anger. My hope is that this Minister will not only take this issue away, but will commit today to getting action at a national level, because it is a true scandal that these horrific abuses are still taking place. Let me be really clear with people. Every time I speak, I have new stories, because women hear my speech as they reel from fresh abuses and they get in touch. So all these stories that I am going to recount today have happened since my last speech on this issue.

I will start with the story of Jane, who had a hysteroscopy late last year. Jane had been warned by her excellent GP that the specialist might attempt to talk her into a hysteroscopy without anaesthetic, and that she had the right to insist on proper pain relief. After all, she has several well-recognised risk factors for pain during hysteroscopy, including endometriosis, a tilted uterus, and never having had children. Fully aware of that, Jane received a letter for an appointment about the results of an ultrasound scan she had had. The letter said nothing about a hysteroscopy, and nothing about her risks or her right to anaesthetic, so she went along expecting simply to have a discussion with a consultant about the results of the scan. But when she got there, she was informed that the consultant wanted to do a hysteroscopy there and then. She said immediately she wanted a general anaesthetic, and explained that she had had terrible pain from similar procedures in the past. Shamefully, the consultant’s response was to laugh in her face and say

“if we gave a general anaesthetic to every woman who had a hysteroscopy the queue would be a mile long”.

To laugh at a woman in distress in that position, I find abhorrent.

Jane was scared. She shook but she felt she had no choice but to comply. She told the doctor and nurse what she had heard about the pain, but they told her not to believe everything she read. She told me that

“as soon as the speculum went in I felt immense pain that was absolutely unbearable...the doctor was having difficulty finding the opening to my cervix so twisted the speculum and dug around, which caused indescribable pain, I felt I might pass out, I had tunnel vision”—

and she was “shaking and hyperventilating.”

At that point, thank heavens, the procedure was stopped but, unbelievably, the doctor said that he simply did not understand why Jane was in so much pain and causing such a fuss, which only worried her more, because it increased her concern that she had cancer. Even after all that, the doctor was still unwilling to consider a proper anaesthetic. Instead, he prescribed a hormonal pessary and suggested that she come back for another go in a fortnight.

Jane was in a fog. She does not remember anything other than getting home and curling up on the sofa, shaking with shock. She has relived the experience over and over, unable to move on because of the threat that she would have to go through it all again without pain relief. She has had trouble sleeping and has had to take time off work because she cannot concentrate. Understandably, Jane believes that she has post-traumatic stress disorder. She told me that she was actually more afraid of having another brutal experience than she was of dealing with possible cancer. How much will the late detection of cancers resulting from this fear cost our NHS and our families? I emphasise to the Minister that this is not major surgery; it could be essentially painless if only proper anaesthetics were offered.

The last I heard, Jane will now have a hysteroscopy with a general anaesthetic. I am praying that she does not have cancer, because if she does, the months-long delay caused by her mistreatment and the callous attitude of that doctor could be deadly to her. What estimate have the Government made of the added cost of failed hysteroscopies that must then be repeated with anaesthetic? Jane is not alone in her experience and in having understandable distrust of the NHS and doctors as a result of her trauma.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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I commend the hon. Lady on her speech. I was there the last time that she brought this issue to the House, as I am tonight, because my wife has been through the experience that the hon. Lady referred to. As a result, I think it is important that I am here to support her not just for my wife, but for every other lady across the United Kingdom. Pain relief is a way of providing much needed reassurance for women who are having hysteroscopies. This is a potentially life-changing treatment and women must be enabled to be as comfortable as possible—I see how important that is. Some 35% of the women who undergo anaesthesia-free hysteroscopies reported severe pain. Does the hon. Lady agree that the pain medications and anaesthesia must be readily available for those who need it? No one should have to live in this day and age with severe pain that cannot be taken care of.

Lyn Brown Portrait Ms Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I agree with the hon. Gentleman and I am grateful for his intervention. I know he has been in these debates with me, and he makes the same point: no woman should have to go through this. No woman should be held down while procedures happen because they are screaming with pain and they want the pain to stop.

Another woman who contacted me about a hysteroscopy that took place last year told me that she had never experienced so much pain—not from a hip operation, nor from having her spleen removed. As a result of her traumatic experience, she now has anxiety and has been prescribed tablets by her GP just to help her function with the day-to-day. Like Jane, she is losing sleep and no doubt her broader health has been harmed by this. She does not know whether she has cancer, but she told me that she is now too scared to go to the hospital for anything.

There are so many stories that I could have told today. I am sent so many of them, despite the fact that the issue does not get a huge amount of press. Women who experience this are seeking out me and the charity I work with to tell us about it. If there were more publicity, more women would come forward. I really hope that the Minister understands that this is an issue of patient safety, but also an issue of common decency. It is an issue of confidence in the medical professions and the NHS, and it will be costing us all, both in money and in lives, because problems simply are not being caught early enough.

Liz Twist Portrait Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have the privilege of co-chairing the all-party parliamentary group on women’s health. We held a meeting at the end of last year to talk about women and the health service, and I must admit that the meeting lit up when one of the medical people spoke about women’s experiences and, in particular, hysteroscopy. I could not believe what happened on my Twitter feed immediately afterwards. So many women were sharing their experiences, listening and saying, “We are entitled to have our experiences of pain validated, and to not have to go through that pain.” Does my hon. Friend agree that the women’s health strategy, which we will be talking about increasingly often, must involve accepting those experiences and seeking to listen more to women, validate their experiences and ensure that the right anaesthetic and treatments are provided?

Lyn Brown Portrait Ms Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and that will indeed be an ask I have of the Minister at the conclusion of my contribution. My hon. Friend is right: women are not listened to. When they tell a doctor, “This hurts. I am in pain and I can’t bear it,” their experiences are not considered valid. They are told that they are being hysterical or overreacting and that they need to be as strong as the other woman he saw last night, last week or whenever, and to not be such a baby in demanding that the procedure be stopped.

Another case from last year is that of Sandy. When Sandy was referred for a hysteroscopy, she was told that pain was a risk, but the information that followed about local pain relief gave her false reassurance. She assumed that it meant some kind of anaesthetic. When she met the clinician, he told her that it would be like period cramps. When she asked about pain relief, he just repeated, “No more than just period cramps, if there’s any pain at all.”

Sandy was well acquainted with period pains. She had had coils inserted and had given vaginal birth twice, one with no pain relief, so she knew she was tough and she thought she would be fine. But when the hysteroscope reached Sandy’s uterus, she felt

“the most incredible, searing, tearing pain I have ever experienced. I found the arms of the bed to grab onto and could hear myself shouting no no no stop stop stop.”

Madam Deputy Speaker, you will be glad to hear that on this occasion the clinician did actually stop, but I would say that by that point the damage had already been done. Sandy has no memory of any questions asked or what the clinicians said to her afterwards. She just remembers the pain, the shaking and the shock. She was completely and utterly dazed, but scant minutes after enduring this, Sandy was ushered out the door. She was given no time to rest and recover, and she was so confused because she had been made to feel that she had made a terrible fuss about nothing. Sandy then had to drive herself home. She told me that she has gone from being fearless and confident to being terrified of going back at all.

Finally, I want to mention Penny. She told me what happened after her “brutally painful failed hysteroscopy”. She strongly, and understandably, believes that she was misled about the risk of pain, because if she had known, there is no way she would have consented to having the procedure with just painkillers. Immediately after Penny went through the same agony that I have just described, she had an assessment with a nurse. The nurse told Penny how she had seen many women like her traumatised and in tears after hysteroscopies. The nurse said that she would never, ever go without a full anaesthetic herself, and that to do the procedure on women with no anaesthetic was barbaric. Penny was deeply and rightly angry to hear this, and the nurse was very clear that women were going through this without being fully informed of the risks.

Let us be really clear: the women I have spoken of today are the tip of a massive iceberg. That nurse is right, the GP I mentioned earlier in the debate is right, and there are many others within the NHS who recognise that this is simply unacceptable. So what needs to change? Frankly, there is still a massive problem with the attitude that many doctors take towards women patients. Our words and our wishes are ignored, and when our words are ignored, our rights are ignored. That has got to end, and I believe that that takes a culture of change. I do not accept that there are just a few badly trained, uncaring or even sadistic doctors. There is a broader problem that the Government and the NHS must address.

The Government have talked previously about a women’s health agenda, and before that there was the women’s health taskforce. Now, there is going to be a women’s health strategy. Believe me, the word “strategy” is music to my ears, but I want a guarantee from the Minister today that tackling painful hysteroscopy will be a core issue. That is my first ask. The patient groups that have been raising this issue so forcefully over many years must have a seat at the table in discussing and monitoring that strategy. These issues are common and the structure of the NHS is complex and obscure; it is failing to listen. So we need to find ways to ensure that patient outcomes for hysteroscopies are measured and monitored alongside the strategy.

My second ask is for all NHS trusts to offer patients who need a hysteroscopy a full range of anaesthetics and to inform them accurately about the risk factors for serious pain, so that all women can make an informed decision. That will require more anaesthetists and theatre capacity for hysteroscopy patients. My third ask is that the Government ensure that this investment is made, and that the commissioning decisions required are being made by NHS trusts. In my view, this is something that the women’s health strategy should be measuring and monitoring, alongside robust evidence on women’s experiences of NHS hysteroscopy, over the coming years.

How many hospital trusts are actually following the guidance to offer anaesthetics up front to all hysteroscopy patients? How many offer a range of effective anaesthetics and have trained staff to discuss women’s risk factors so that they are given an informed choice? How many women are forced to endure a traumatic failed hysteroscopy without pain relief, with public money wasted as a result, only to have another procedure under anaesthetic?

How many patients do not even know they are going to be asked to have a hysteroscopy until they attend an appointment, with all the pressure that that involves? Can Members imagine going to a doctor in a hospital because of a fear that they have cancer and that doctor telling them they are going to do a hysteroscopy right now? Can Members imagine how much pressure there is on a woman to accept that procedure there and then because of the fear of what might be there and how long they might have to wait? They do not want to upset the doctor, do they? They might have something really awful that needs to be attended to immediately.

Any women’s health strategy worth its name would make sure that the answers to the questions I have asked are known and that we are moving in the right direction on all those issues. I am delighted to say that the best practice tariff on hysteroscopy, which financially incentivised the mistreatment of women, is now gone. We had a system under which our hospitals were paid more for hysteroscopies done without anaesthetic than they were paid for those done with anaesthetic. I am thankful that that incentivised mistreatment of women has now gone. That is a massive achievement for the campaign.

Several previous Ministers have engaged with me on this issue—the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) was very good on it when we spoke—and I thank them for hearing me. One benefit is that trusts are now paid the same amount for out-patient and day-case hysteroscopies. That is far better than it was, but it can still cause problems, because day-case procedures with anaesthetic cost more. If a trust will not be compensated for the difference, it might still decide to try to limit access to pain relief, because it will know that if anaesthetic is given, it will not receive a benefit in kind to pay for that procedure. We need to know that individual trusts are actually changing their behaviour and attitude in response to the progress that has been made. If they are not, we might need further action to ensure that no trust will lose money by doing the right thing and providing the pain relief that a woman needs.

I am sure the Minister will be slightly alarmed by an increase in demand for anaesthetists and theatres, and we all understand the massive covid backlog that the Government and the NHS face. I reassure the Minister that both regional or spinal anaesthetic and intravenous sedation with anaesthesia may be good options for many hysteroscopy patients, depending on their needs and risk factors. The NHS has got to offer a real choice in the range of anaesthetics, not a false choice between a general anaesthetic and no effective pain relief at all. It is simply wrong that if a man needs a colonoscopy, the chances are that he will be offered an effective anaesthetic without question, whereas if a woman needs a hysteroscopy, they may be forced to endure such terrible trauma that it shakes them to the very core ,and then made to feel pathetic when they cry out in pain.

I am not going to stop raising this issue, and the courageous women I have been working with will not stop either. I want to work with the Minister on this issue, as I have with other Ministers in the past, and I hope the Government engage fully, because we need to end this scandal and ensure that women are treated like human beings in every single part of our NHS.

21:14
Maria Caulfield Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) on securing this debate. I thank her for all her hard work. I am very sorry that she has been speaking about this issue for nine years and is still having to share some of the stories and experiences of women who have contacted her, whether that is Jane, who was unaware of the potential for pain when having such a procedure—women being investigated for endometriosis often wait eight to 10 years to get a diagnosis, so if there is an offer of a procedure to find the cause of their problems, of course they will grab it and not necessarily ask questions about what is involved; or Sandy, who got no information on pain relief at all, or Penny. Penny was warned by the nurse—often nurses are attuned to these things—and was worried about what the outcomes were, but went ahead with the procedure. These are shocking tales that should not be happening in this day and age. I appreciate everything that the hon. Lady says, and I offer that I will be happy to work with her on this issue.

As Members will be aware, hysteroscopy is an essential tool to get to the bottom of many complaints. Whether that is cancer, endometriosis, vaginal bleeding or pelvic pain, it is a necessary test. While other tests can be used, they do not necessarily get to the level of clinical detail that a hysteroscopy can provide for clinicians. It is therefore important that the test is available for women, but in a way that does not create the problems we have heard about this evening.

Many women can have the procedure as out-patients in 10 to 15 minutes and it can be relatively painless, but many women, as we have heard today, experience great pain, which puts them off from coming back if they need further procedures, as the hon. Lady has said. If they share that story with other women they know, it can put them off from coming forward, too.

Unfortunately the NHS does not collect data on the number of women who experience pain during a hysteroscopy or the women who fail to have the hysteroscopy and then need to have either a general anaesthetic or further anaesthetic later on. I am aware that the Campaign Against Painful Hysteroscopy estimates that between 5% and 25% of women are affected and have reported severe pain, and frankly that is not good enough. I welcome that NHS England will be meeting the campaign group on 4 February. I look forward to hearing the outcome of that meeting, and I will be following up any recommendations after that.

The hon. Lady is right that for many procedures a man would undertake, anaesthetic is probably routinely provided or offered. We need to ensure that the same applies to those procedures that women have to go through.

There are guidelines in place, and I spoke only last week to the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, because I knew this debate was coming up. Those guidelines were published back in 2011, and they need updating. The guidelines focus on minimising pain and optimising the woman’s experience, as well as making specific recommendations on how to reduce pain, but as the hon. Lady said, we do not have the information to know who is and is not following those guidelines. We are therefore not in a position to say whether, if those guidelines were followed, many women would not experience pain, and that is the difficulty we have. The data is therefore crucial.

In the last debate that the hon. Lady secured on this issue, which I think was in September 2020, my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), informed the House that to ensure the recommendations were robust and up to date, the royal college would be producing a second edition, in which it will assess whether the current guidelines are effective and are being used. The second edition is being jointly developed with the British Society for Gynaecological Endoscopy, and I am assured that patients’ voices will be at the heart of its development. The royal college has informed me that good progress is being made, and that it will have the updated guidelines by next year.

Lyn Brown Portrait Ms Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I ask specifically that we involve the campaign, because that would be one way of assuring me that the voices of patients are being heard?

Maria Caulfield Portrait Maria Caulfield
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I said to the president that I would follow up after the debate, so I can certainly make that request.

The royal college has also said that it is producing a good practice paper specifically on pain relief and how informed decisions should be made, particularly in out-patient hysteroscopy procedures. It is going through the peer review process next month and will be published shortly afterwards. Once it is published, I would be very keen to hear from campaign representatives about whether they feel that those guidelines would make a difference to them in a practical session.

It is crucial that women who are offered a hysteroscopy are given the information they need to make an informed decision, given that they have sometimes waited a long time for the appointment and that serious clinical conditions can be diagnosed from it. That should include information about potential pain, options for pain management and alternative procedures that could be used.

The Department and NHS England recommend that, as part of good practice, the royal college’s patient information leaflet, which was published in 2018, should be provided to patients to aid decision making. I think that should be provided in advance of the appointment, because it is often hard for someone to take in all that information in the midst of a consultation. Again, I would be interested to hear from the campaign whether that is happening in practice.

The House will also be interested to learn that the British Society for Gynaecological Endoscopy recently published a statement to clarify that from the outset women should be offered

“the choice of having the procedure performed as a day case…under general or regional anaesthetic”.

It further asserts that the procedure should be stopped immediately if a woman experiences pain.

I encourage any woman offered a hysteroscopy to read those valuable resources along with any additional resources provided by their clinician. I agree with the hon. Lady that women often do not understand what a hysteroscopy is or what is involved, and debates such as this highlight how important the procedure is, the options around pain relief and the different anaesthetics available.

The hon. Lady touched on the tariff. Previously, there was a different rate of payment for hysteroscopies carried out in an out-patient setting compared with in-patient procedures. I recognise that that is a concern for many hon. Members on both sides of the House because of how it affects patient choice and the choices that are offered to them. In the last debate on the topic, my predecessor announced a statutory consultation. I am pleased to say that as of 1 April, hysteroscopy out-patient procedures will no longer attract a higher tariff than elective procedures as an in-patient day case. That will hopefully make a difference to the choices offered to women.

Lyn Brown Portrait Ms Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is absolutely true and we are delighted about that; I welcomed it in my speech. The problem that we now have is that if a hospital offers an anaesthetic, it does not get compensated for the resource that it has used. We need to go one step further to ensure that there are no incentives for not offering women proper anaesthetic.

Maria Caulfield Portrait Maria Caulfield
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree with the hon. Lady. She made a point about having the data to see how many hysteroscopies fail and whether that money could be better spent on offering an anaesthetic up front to many women. I do not have an answer to that, but it would be interesting to look at that information.

Alongside clinical guidelines and access to high-quality patient information, I stress the importance of the voices of patients, which are critical at every stage of the treatment pathway. Decisions should always be discussed and shared between clinician and patient. The Government are committed to ensuring that the voices of women in particular are more central in the healthcare system.

The women’s health strategy has been touched on several times. We have also taken key learnings from reports such as the Cumberlege review, where women were talking for a long time about the issues that they faced before anyone truly listened. We need to improve that so we are not learning from such incidents after nine years of raising them on the Floor of the House. The women’s health strategy will include gynae issues such as endometriosis and polycystic ovary disease, which are conditions that do need a hysteroscopy, so I am pretty confident that we will cover that in the strategy. We will also have a women’s health ambassador—they will be appointed in the coming weeks; applications are almost closed—with whom I will meet. I want them to lead on these issues, where they can be a real voice for patients, do a deep dive into what is happening at the coalface and speak up for women if it is not working. We have guidelines, but we do not know whether they are being used in clinical practice. From what the hon. Lady says, it sounds like there are clearly issues that need to be addressed.

I reassure the hon. Lady that I am happy to work with her on this issue. Improving the tariffs is one thing, but there are still women who are not getting the information that they need to make informed decisions about pain relief and anaesthetic that could be available. I welcome the new information from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists on pain relief specifically for this procedure, which will be out next month, and I will feed back to it on updating the guidelines to ensure that patients are involved in the process.

I thank the hon. Lady for raising this important matter. I hope that we have raised its profile and that women are more aware of their options. When they go to that clinic appointment, they can ask for pain relief, they can have it as an in-patient, and they do not need to have it right there, right then. I look forward to continuing to work with her and all Members across the House to ensure that women are offered a hysteroscopy and can access the information they need and the care they deserve.

Eleanor Laing Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
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Genuinely, thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

21:26
House adjourned.

Plastic Packaging Tax (Descriptions of Products) Regulations 2021

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Mr Virendra Sharma
† Byrne, Liam (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
Cryer, John (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
† Farris, Laura (Newbury) (Con)
Graham, Richard (Gloucester) (Con)
† Hudson, Dr Neil (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
† Johnston, David (Wantage) (Con)
† Jones, Andrew (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
† Kawczynski, Daniel (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
† Mackrory, Cherilyn (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
† Mak, Alan (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)
† Oppong-Asare, Abena (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
† Qaisar, Ms Anum (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Sheerman, Mr Barry (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Trickett, Jon (Hemsworth) (Lab)
† Twist, Liz (Blaydon) (Lab)
† Whately, Helen (Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury)
† Williams, Craig (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Liam Laurence Smyth, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
First Delegated Legislation Committee
Monday 31 January 2022
[Mr Virendra Sharma in the Chair]
Plastic Packaging Tax (Descriptions of Products) Regulations 2021
16:30
None Portrait The Chair
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Before we begin, I would like to encourage Members to observe social distancing and wear masks.

Helen Whately Portrait The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Helen Whately)
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I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the Plastic Packaging Tax (Descriptions of Products) Regulations 2021 (S.I. 2021, No. 1417).

The statutory instrument seeks to tackle plastic packaging waste in the most effective way possible by making sure that the legislation is properly targeted. I will first speak briefly about the context of the legislation, before moving on to the plastic packaging tax and the statutory instrument itself.

The Government are committed to tackling plastic pollution. Plastic waste is a major environmental threat. Plastics do not decompose. Plastic waste can last centuries. Those centuries may be spent in landfill sites, but too often plastic ends up where it should not—littering the streets and countryside, piling up on beaches and in rivers, and caught on the tides in the world’s oceans. In this country alone we generate nearly 5 million tonnes of plastic each year. In 2001 we recycled just a quarter of all our packaging waste. By 2017 that proportion had grown to 60%, but we can and should go further.

As hon. Members may recall, in 2018 the Government committed to introduce a tax on plastic packaging—a pledge we reiterated in our manifesto in 2019. This tax has already been legislated for in the Finance Act 2021. The tax will be charged at £200 per tonne of plastic packaging that is manufactured or imported in the UK, and which does not contain at least 30% recycled plastic. That will provide clear economic incentives for businesses to use recycled plastic over virgin plastic. This will in turn incentivise packaging producers to overcome the challenges of including recycled plastic in packaging. It will also incentivise increased collection and recycling of plastic waste, reducing the amount incinerated, dumped in landfill or strewn about so that it finds its way into the natural environment.

We estimate that the tax will lead to around 40% more recycled plastic being used in packaging in 2022-23 alone. Given that the use of new plastic generates more carbon than the use of recycled plastic, we estimate that the tax will save nearly 200,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions in its first year, thereby achieving a dual purpose of reducing carbon emissions as well as reducing plastic waste.

This tax’s introduction has been subject to a long process of engagement and deliberation, first through two consultations in 2019 and 2020, and then through three technical consultations on the necessary legislation, including a consultation on the statutory instrument we are discussing. At every stage, the Government have listened to a range of organisations, including plastic packaging manufacturers, trade bodies across the plastics value chain and other interested stakeholders. Following these discussions and deliberations, in the Finance Act 2021 the Government introduced legislation setting out the tax’s initial scope, based on a well-established definition of packaging. The definition is similar to that in the producer responsibility obligations set out by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which also seek to boost recycling rates.

The tax and the reforms to the producer responsibility obligations are designed to be complementary. However, unlike the producer responsibility obligations, this tax is charged at the point of manufacture and import, and has a different definition of packaging aimed at reducing the burdens on businesses while securing environmental aims. The definition of plastic packaging included in the Finance Act 2021 covers products designed to contain, handle, protect, deliver or present goods at any stage in the supply chain. It does not matter whether the product is used in the supply chain or by the end consumer. For example, bubble wrap and tape are both designed to be suitable in the supply chain, but can also be used by consumers. This definition ensures that items such as Tupperware and other homewares, which are not designed to be suitable for use in the supply chain, are not subject to the tax.

The primary legislation introduced in the Finance Act 2021 also exempts packaging products that are permanently set aside for a non-packaging function. By doing so, it makes sure that items that are manufactured or imported for a completely different purpose than a packaging function are not inadvertently captured within the tax. For example, plastic film that is applied to whiteboards used in teaching institutions will not be taxed, and nor would, for instance, plastic bottles made for an art installation.

I thank hon. Members and others who have taken the time to explain to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Treasury the highly specialised nature of silage film and its use for the production of silage. After careful analysis of additional information, I can advise that, although silage film is within the overall scope of the tax, it falls under an exemption for items where packaging is not the primary function. That is because its primary purpose is to enable the fermentation necessary for the production of silage, rather than the packaging of silage. Manufacturers and importers of silage film will still need to count it towards the 10 tonne threshold to determine whether they need to register and keep a record of it being set aside for a non-packaging function to support HMRC’s compliance activity, but where that is done no tax will need to be paid.

Turning to the statutory instrument specifically, although it is critical that we tackle the scourge of plastic waste, we do not want to tax all plastic products. However, taken in isolation, the measures in the Finance Act 2021 would mean that the tax would apply to plastic products that do not typically contribute to the environmental harm that the tax is designed to address. Equally, the tax would not apply to single-use plastic packaging designed for the end consumer, such as bin bags or carrier bags. The 2021 Act allowed for additional regulations to amend and improve the definition of packaging within the scope of the tax, and that is what these regulations do.

The statutory instrument will add to the scope of the tax packaging products that are specifically designed for a single-use packaging function by a user or consumer for goods or waste—for example, bin bags and carrier bags, as I mentioned, as well as nappy sacks and disposable plastic plates. In addition, the instrument will remove packaging that is designed for the long-term storage of goods from the scope of the tax. To fall within that category, packaging must be designed to be sold filled with goods and be reused for the same or similar goods—for example, a first aid box, a glasses case or a power tool case.

The instrument also removes from the scope of the tax products where the plastic is an integral part of the goods, without which the goods cannot reasonably be used or consumed. That removes products where it is not possible to reasonably separate the packaging from the item. To fall within that category, the packaging must be discarded with the goods or after the goods have been used or consumed. That includes printer cartridges, aerosol actuators and the ball of a roll-on deodorant. Finally, the instrument removes from the scope of the tax products that are designed for reuse in the presentation of goods, including shop fittings, display shelves and presentation stands.

These adjustments follow the substantial consultation and engagement with businesses that I mentioned, and will mean that the tax better fulfils its objective of incentivising the recycling of plastic and reduced plastic waste in a targeted way. I therefore commend the statutory instrument to the Committee.

16:37
Abena Oppong-Asare Portrait Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma, I believe for the first time. I thank the Minister for her comments about the regulations. As I have said before, the Opposition support the plastic packaging tax, as we believe that it is an important tool in tackling the crisis of plastic pollution that we face.

Before I come to the detail of the regulations and some of the concerns that we have about them, I will take the Minister back to the supposed aims of the plastic packaging tax. When the Government initially introduced the tax, in the last but one Finance Bill, they stated:

“The tax will encourage the use of recycled plastic instead of new plastic within packaging. It will create greater demand for recycled plastic, and in turn stimulate increased levels of recycling and collection of plastic waste, diverting it away from landfill or incineration.”

That is an important principle. The Minister just mentioned that the tax is supposed to incentivise the use of recycled plastic, and in turn reduce the overall amount of virgin plastic packaging being produced and consumed. Logically, the tax would have the greatest impact were it extended to as many items as possible. It is therefore somewhat concerning to see three new exemptions being introduced at this stage.

As I said during the passage of the original legislation, we supported common-sense exemptions such as for medical packaging but believed that the list of exemptions should be kept as short as possible. I want to take the new exemptions in turn, and ask the Minister some questions about each. The first is about packaging products designed primarily for storage, such as video game cases and toolboxes. In the explanatory notes, the Government say that those products

“do not typically contribute to plastic pollution.”

Can the Minister explain? Surely they are thrown away at some point and end up as plastic waste. The explanation also ignores the upstream environmental impact of producing the plastics. The Government have not said that they intend the tax to apply only to single-use items, so why is that justification now being used to exempt certain products?

The second exemption is for plastic packaging integral to the product being sold; the Government give examples such as printer cartridges, tea bags and mascara brushes. The Minister mentioned the encouragement of long- term storage of those goods, but will she give a further explanation, other than that, as to why they are being exempted—a bit more about the justification? We are concerned about whether the Government want greater use of recycled plastic in those products. They seem to be lowering their ambition significantly in this area.

Finally, the Government are exempting packaging used primarily for presentation. I make the same point as I did about storage items: it is not clear how these products do not contribute to plastic pollution through their production and disposal. Does the Minister not think that including them in the tax would encourage the use of recycled plastic or alternative materials?

The regulations add a new category to the scope of the tax: single-use plastic items used as packaging within the home, such as bin bags and disposable plates. We are happy to support that addition, but it takes us back to the point I made earlier. With these amendments, the Government seem to be changing the focus of the measure from encouraging recycled plastic and reducing plastic waste in general towards a narrower focus on single-use plastic. Is that correct? What assessment has the Treasury made about whether the changes will lead to more plastic waste being produced and how much?

The Minister mentioned that the definition was introduced to reduce the burden on businesses; I take this opportunity to raise a couple of points made by the British Plastics Federation and the Food and Drink Federation on behalf of their members, who will ultimately be subject to the tax. First, they say that there is confusion among businesses about exactly what products are eligible for the tax. Hopefully, the regulations will be helpful, but will the Minister consider whether HMRC needs to issue further detailed guidance?

I appreciate that the Minister mentioned that there has been a lot of consultation with relevant organisations, particularly with this SI, but there is an issue about the recycled content verification system, which ensures that imported packaging is subject to the same level of scrutiny as packaging produced in the UK. What is being done to ensure that UK producers are not being treated unfairly?

There are also concerns that, due to the lack of recycled materials in the UK, producers may struggle to meet the 30% threshold even when they wish to. There are specific issues in the food packaging sector, where there is limited regulatory approval for recycled products to be used, which the Food and Drink Federation has raised. Finally, it also raises the issue of chemical recycling and a potential problem whereby the mass balance approach to certifying chemically recycled products will not be accepted for the purposes of the plastic packaging tax in April 2022. Can the Minister respond to those practical points from the industry? If she is unable to do so today, will she write to me?

I have said before that we want to see a plastic packaging tax that is ambitious and makes a real impact in reducing plastic pollution. Just last week, the Environmental Investigation Agency released a report saying that plastic pollution is now a global emergency nearly equivalent to that of climate change itself. It has shown that the toxic pollution resulting from over-production of virgin plastics and their lifecycles is irreversible, and that it directly undermines our health, drives biodiversity loss, exacerbates climate change and risks generating large-scale harmful environmental changes. For those reasons, we cannot afford to slow down the fight against plastic pollution. We hope that the plastic packaging tax can be part of that fight, but we need reassurances from the Minister that these changes will not undermine its impact.

16:46
Anum Qaisar Portrait Ms Anum Qaisar (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. The amount of waste going to landfill in Scotland is at its lowest level since records began, but of course more needs to be done in order to maintain progress. Scotland has met and exceeded the EU target to reduce the quantity of biodegradable waste disposed of to landfill, with that waste continuing to fall to its lowest level on record. The Scottish Government are committed to matching or exceeding the standards set out by the EU single-use plastics directive, and are determined to accelerate progress to meet our ambitious waste reduction, recycling and climate change targets.

16:47
Helen Whately Portrait Helen Whately
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I will briefly respond to some of the points from the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead. I welcome her support for the tax and her overall support for the legislation, and I thank her for reminding us of the objectives, including our ambition to increase the use of recycled plastic over virgin plastic.

The hon. Lady raised concerns about some of the exemptions that I have outlined today, or about the targeting of the tax. Overall, we agree on the ambition to limit exemptions to ensure that the tax achieves its objective. The Government are determined to be pragmatic, but also to ensure that the tax achieves its objective of targeting those plastics that are particularly harmful to the environment. As I said in my opening speech, we carried out a huge amount of consultation and engagement with industry and those interested in this tax and legislation in order to get the targeting of the taxation right. That has led to the details of this statutory instrument, with the very specific exemptions that I outlined and the inclusion of certain single-use plastics that are used for disposal, for instance—bin bags and so on.

I say to the hon. Lady, who suggested that this was too narrow a focus, that this is a hugely ambitious tax, which sets out to change the incentives so that we see much greater use of recycled plastic and more plastic being recycled into the plastic supply chain, leading to—this picks up on her point about what assessment of impact there has been—our expectation that we will see a 40% increase in the use of recycled plastic following the introduction of the tax.

To pick up on the hon. Lady’s point about whether there are concerns or confusion about the clarity of the regulations, I should say that substantial guidance has been set out on which products are in the scope of the tax and how it should be applied; the Government have worked closely with the sector and industry on preparing the details of that. Businesses that are concerned or uncertain can indeed contact HMRC, which will lead on the implementation.

Abena Oppong-Asare Portrait Abena Oppong-Asare
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Will the Minister give way?

Helen Whately Portrait Helen Whately
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Let me cover the comments that the hon. Lady made, if she will give me a moment. She asked about imported packaging. I assure her that we are determined that there should be a level playing field, so the tax will apply equally to packaging manufactured in the UK and that imported into the UK.

The hon. Lady then asked about food packaging. We have consulted with the sector on that; we recognise some of the challenges but also the progress already being made to increase the use of recycled plastic in food packaging. We would not want to disincentivise further progress along those lines so we very much include that consideration, as with other examples of when it is more challenging to use recycled plastic.

Finally, the hon. Lady asked about chemical recycling; I am absolutely aware of questions from that part of the recycling sector. We are keen to see the use of chemically recycled plastic, which is really important for increasing the supply and quality of recycled plastic—especially some types of plastic that are hard to make with mechanically recycled plastic. The Government are investing in chemical recycling facilities to support the development of the technology. This legislation allows for chemically recycled plastic to contribute towards the 30% recycled plastic threshold for the purposes of the tax. I know that some have argued that that is not enough, but the mass balance approach that they are arguing for is a significant shift; it is about a chemically recycled plastic being attributed to packaging rather than contained in packaging. That is quite a fundamental change. We are looking at that but it would require new legislation, and we will not rush into that at this point.

In conclusion, this is an important piece of legislation, which will help this country fight the scourge of plastic pollution and cut carbon emissions by boosting recycling rates. Ultimately, it will play a part in unlocking economic benefits through the encouragement of green growth and innovation. Equally, the instrument will make sure that we tackle plastic waste in a proportionate and effective way, for the benefit of consumers and businesses alike.

Abena Oppong-Asare Portrait Abena Oppong-Asare
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I thank the Minister for answering the points I raised. I welcome the fact that detailed guidance will be provided by HMRC, particularly in relation to businesses. I appreciate that the Government have done extensive consultation with a number of stakeholders, but the ones I have engaged with represent quite a number of businesses. What are the timescales when it comes to HMRC’s publication of the guidance? There has been confusion about what businesses are eligible to do, and it is important that we get the issue right.

Helen Whately Portrait Helen Whately
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I am happy to respond briefly. Guidance has in fact already been published; this particular guidance first came out in November, and the most recent update was just a couple of days ago. I hope that answers the questions put by the businesses that the hon. Lady referred to; they can, of course, follow up with HMRC if they have any further questions.

Question put and agreed to.

16:54
Committee rose.

Draft Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2022

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

General Committees
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Mrs Maria Miller
† Baillie, Siobhan (Stroud) (Con)
Brown, Alan (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
† Butler, Rob (Aylesbury) (Con)
† Champion, Sarah (Rotherham) (Lab)
† Davies, Geraint (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
† Hands, Greg (Minister for Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change)
† Jenkinson, Mark (Workington) (Con)
Keeley, Barbara (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
† Morden, Jessica (Newport East) (Lab)
Morrissey, Joy (Beaconsfield) (Con)
Osamor, Kate (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
† Stevenson, Jane (Wolverhampton North East) (Con)
Sturdy, Julian (York Outer) (Con)
† Vara, Shailesh (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
† Whitehead, Dr Alan (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
† Whittaker, Craig (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)
† Wood, Mike (Dudley South) (Con)
Seb Newman, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Second Delegated Legislation Committee
Monday 31 January 2022
[Mrs Maria Miller in the Chair]
Draft Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2022
18:00
None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before we begin, I remind everybody that we are still under socially distanced rules, and please to wear masks if you are not speaking, as ordered by Mr Speaker and the Commission. I call the Minister to move the motion.

Greg Hands Portrait The Minister for Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change (Greg Hands)
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I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2022.

The draft order was laid before the House on 6 January.

The UK emissions trading scheme—the UK ETS—was established under the Climate Change Act 2008 by the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020 as a UK-wide greenhouse gas emissions trading scheme to encourage cost-effective emissions reductions that will contribute to the UK’s emissions reduction targets and net zero goal. The scheme replaced the UK’s participation in the EU emissions trading system—the EU ETS—and the 2020 order applied EU ETS rules on the monitoring, reporting and verification of emissions, with modifications to ensure that they work for the UK ETS.

The 2020 order was subsequently amended by the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2020 to include provisions for the free allocation of emissions allowances and to create the UK ETS registry. Regulations under the Finance Act 2020 established the rules for auctioning allowances and mechanisms to support market stability. The UK ETS launched on 1 January 2021, and the first auction successfully completed on 19 May. The scheme has been running well since its launch, but there is a need to continue to improve its operation.

Further amendments have been made by the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2021, which is subject to the negative procedure and comes into force on 7 February 2022. In broad terms, the 2021 order makes various technical and operational amendments to the UK ETS across a number of scheme aspects, including providing for installations in the hospital and small emitter opt-out scheme to be able to increase their emissions targets, and for installations in both opt-out schemes that return to the main scheme to benefit from free allocation.

The purpose of this order is to amend the 2020 order to address several residual operational issues identified during the development and legislation of the scheme, and to support the scheme’s technical operation. This legislation also addresses an issue of doubtful vires relating to previous amendments, raised by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. This proposed order consists of various operational issues identified by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the devolved Administrations and the national scheme regulators during the establishment of the scheme that were required to be legislated for via an affirmative procedure.

This order does three things: introduces a civil penalty to enforce an existing obligation to return overallocated allowances; creates an offence of intentionally obstructing the scheme regulators that are exercising enforcement powers; and makes it clear that some enforcement powers previously introduced by the negative procedure are valid.

In conclusion, this order will help to improve the effective operation of the UK ETS. This in turn will help to ensure that the scheme plays its part in reducing emissions. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.

18:04
Alan Whitehead Portrait Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller, albeit I have a slight apology to make for turning up at the very last moment. I ought perhaps to advise the Committee that the recently refurbished lift that takes hon. Members from the ground floor opposite the Strangers’ Bar does not stop at the first floor, which necessitated a rather circuitous route to get here. I apologise for being right on time, or marginally later, and I hope that the House of Commons authorities may have a look at whether the lift ought to stop at the first floor, which would be a good idea for good order in this House.

This statutory instrument is essentially uncontroversial, although the operation of the UK ETS is perhaps a little more controversial. The reason we are here this afternoon is because the SI seeks to put right an amendment order of 2020, which was put through under the negative procedure. However, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments decided that it should have gone through the affirmative procedure, which is why we are debating this SI.

The changes in this SI, as opposed to those in the 2021 amendment order, are minimal to the point of being nothing. What we have in front of us is an amendment to the 2020 order, clarifying and adding various things in the way the Minister has described on aviation, on unused allowances and on definitions of how certain procedures of the order would work. One could argue that those perhaps might have been put in the 2020 order in the first place, but I am pleased that they are with us now.

I do not have any particular concerns or objections about those particular things in the order itself but, since we do not get many, or any, opportunities to examine the operation of the UK ETS, it is worth considering briefly what is happening to the scheme and whether it might have been a good idea to place some further amendments to the scheme before the House, both in terms of what has happened in the EU as far as the UK ETS is concerned and what has happened during the early stages of the scheme’s operation.

I therefore have two brief questions for the Minister about the operation of the UK ETS. Although my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham kindly sent me a note of what she intends to talk about, I will not—in the best traditions of theatre critics not to give away the plot of the play—tell the Committee exactly what she will say. However, I want to reflect on two things that are important to the operation of the UK ETS.

First, the intention of the UK ETS, at least for the first few years of operation, is that it should pretty closely shadow the EU ETS. As we know, that has not been the case. UK ETS prices have come in considerably higher than those of the EU ETS over that period. The intention behind the 2020 order, as set out in its impact assessment, has not been realised. It might have been wise to put in place linking mechanisms with the EU ETS much earlier—the Government have said they would consider doing so at some future date but have not done anything about it, as far as I know—bearing in mind that the EU ETS and the UK ETS have diverged in price in a way that was not originally envisaged.

My first question to the Minister is this. Does he intend to look at linking mechanisms with the EU ETS at an early stage to prevent future divergence, which may otherwise be increasingly wide? Among other things, businesses and commerce in this country want to be able to anticipate what will happen with carbon pricing. We do not disagree with the principle of carbon pricing, but businesses need some stability in their forward understanding of it.

Since the 2020 order, from which this amendment order derives, the EU has adopted in principle a proposal for a new carbon border adjustment mechanism. That mechanism would deal with the consequences of carbon leakage—that is, where the EU’s carbon taxes and carbon trading arrangements mean that third countries have a considerable trade advantage, because they can import goods without such arrangements attached and bring them within the EU’s borders. As far as I know, the UK has not yet taken any action on considering or implementing a carbon border adjustment mechanism. If the EU proceeds with such a mechanism, as seems likely, the UK will be in an even worse position than it is now when it comes to carbon leakage. We will be external to a carbon adjustment mechanism, so we will have punitive elements against us. At the same time, people will be able to import goods into the UK, safe in the knowledge that they are not subject to the same sorts of arrangements.

The Minister knows that various members of the Government—he is not one of them—have indicated that the UK should take the idea of a carbon border adjustment mechanism very seriously. My second question to him is this. Has he considered adding a carbon border adjustment mechanism to the 2020 order that brought about the UK scheme, as a successor to the EU ETS? If he has considered it, what action is his Department taking to forward the idea of a UK carbon border adjustment mechanism?

I hope that I have not stolen my hon. Friend’s thunder and that between us we will get some clarification at least from the Minister about how these things will work as the UK ETS proceeds. As a great supporter of carbon trading, I would say that a UK carbon trading mechanism—the UK ETS—should have been the obvious thing to introduce after the UK’s exit from the EU. I fully support that. What I am concerned about is ensuring that the UK ETS works as well as possible, to the net benefit of the UK and UK industry, rather than causing problems for it, as it sometimes looks like it might. I am sure the Minister will give me a full and frank run-down of the Government’s intentions in these areas. I look forward to hearing from him, but first I am very happy to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham, who I think will develop this theme a little further in relation to particular businesses in her constituency.

18:16
Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
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It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Miller. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test for encapsulating the issues we are facing.

It is extremely fortunate for me that I am on the Committee considering this piece of secondary legislation, because it is so pertinent to one of the oldest businesses in my constituency—one that I am extremely nervous may be thrown into considerable, if not terminal, economic problems because of the situation with the emissions trading scheme, among other things.

The rationale behind the UK emissions trading scheme and its predecessor, the EU ETS, was to encourage investment in decarbonising by charging industrial emitters of CO2 for the pollution they were causing. The system placed a legal requirement on polluters to purchase CO2 or carbon allowances from the state and surrender them to match the quantum of emissions emitted by an industrial installation on an annual basis, with strict penalties for non-compliance or failure to surrender allowances. It was designed to reduce the availability of CO2 allowances over time, thereby pushing CO2 allowance prices up, as decarbonisation technology developed and became an investable alternative to paying for emission allowances.

It was recognised that the scheme could have a negative effect on competitiveness and lead to production being moved to countries where costs were lower and operators did not face carbon emissions controls—what is called carbon leakage. To protect against this, businesses deemed at risk of carbon leakage received a percentage of free allowances to assist in minimising the risk. The logic behind the system appears sound, but sadly, as happens in so many cases, the reality does not match the theory.

Beatson Clark in my constituency is a small UK-owned glass manufacturer that has operated from the same site in my constituency since 1751. It employs 351 direct employees, as well as supporting many local businesses throughout its supply chain. It produces glass containers for the food, drinks and pharmaceutical markets, and is the only remaining producer of amber pharmaceutical glass in the UK. Beatson Clark has led the way in reducing its CO2 emissions by increasing the levels of recycled materials in the glass it produces. It has invested millions of pounds in its own recycling plant in order to secure recycled materials for its glass furnaces. It is the only UK glass manufacturer that actually owns and operates its own recycling plant. Basically, Beatson Clark is a green, recycling business that the UK should be proud of; but, due to both commercial and physical factors, it is unable to reduce emissions further.

Glass can be melted using electrical energy, but the infrastructure to deliver sufficient energy to the site is not in place, and the costs associated with it would be prohibitive. It would also take years to implement. The switch from melting using natural gas to using electricity would add between £4 million and £5 million in costs—costs that were calculated before the current energy price spike. These additional costs would increase to around £30 million in electricity energy against gas at the peak of the current crisis. It would simply not be commercially viable to switch, even if the infrastructure were in place.

The UK market is now being offered glass at prices below the UK production costs. Increasingly, these imports are coming from the middle east and Turkey. Beatson Clark asked British Gas to conduct an assessment of the production costs and CO2 impact associated with glass produced in Turkey. It established that shipping glass produced there to the UK—and no doubt bringing it from ferries to the actual sites on lorries—resulted in a 36% increase in CO2 emissions. However, the cost of manufacturing in Turkey was around 39% lower. As a result of both lower energy costs, and the fact that there is no carbon allowance burden, such glass is made considerably cheaper than anything that can be produced in the UK.

In the last year, the UK ETS allowance prices, like the energy prices, have increased beyond what could have been anticipated by industry. When the first auction of UK allowances took place in May 2021, the reserve was set at £22 per tonne. The actual sale price was £43.99 per tonne. Prices have continued to rise over the year to around £80 per tonne. The equivalent EU CO2 allowance price has also risen, but on average the cost of a UK allowance is around £4 a tonne more expensive.

None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

May I encourage the hon. Member to talk about operational improvements in respect of the UK ETS? I am sure she was about to come on to that.

Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mrs Miller; I will do so. I know what a good Chair you are, so I know that I am pushing my luck.

As a result, Beatson Clark, like many other essential UK businesses, has seen its carbon compliance costs triple. It cannot reduce its emissions further without significant investment in energy infrastructure. Even if the infrastructure were in place, the cost of alternative energy would be prohibitive. It is therefore in a Catch-22; it wishes to further decarbonise, but there is no commercially viable method of doing so. It feels that it is trapped, leaving the purchase of allowances simply as a tax on business. It also has concerns that some of the increase in the CO2 allowance is being driven by speculators.

The Government have made over £4.5 billion from the sale of carbon allowances since May 2021. While the Treasury is enjoying the windfall as a result of higher carbon prices, UK obligated companies and institutions are suffering. Businesses need stability. They cannot realistically plan for all the unforeseeable circumstances, such as the massive increases in energy and carbon costs that we have seen over the past six months. The current system and policies are failing companies that want to do the right thing, and I fear that we may see businesses closing as a consequence.

The impact assessment published alongside the design of the UK ETS in June 2020 did not envisage the present situation. Can I therefore ask the Minister, at the very least, to recommission the impact assessment to bring it line with the current reality? More broadly, will the Minister commit to a total review of energy, energy policies, energy taxation and environmental policies? This would ensure that the Government are focused on levelling up costs across Europe, protecting against carbon leakage from beyond Europe and allowing sustainable CO2 reduction while maintaining affordable production in the UK.

Finally, I say to the Minister: Beatson Clark is an absolutely fantastic example of how a business can support a local community and local suppliers. I know that it would really welcome a visit if the Minister is passing.

None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before I bring in the next Member, I would like to remind everybody that Delegated Legislation Committees are tightly focused on the measure in front of us. We really do need to focus on the issue in question: the operational improvements of the UK ETS.

18:24
Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a great joy to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. I would like to make a couple of quick points on the operational improvements of the trading scheme.

First, I support the points made by my hon. Friends the Members for Southampton, Test and for Rotherham about the carbon border adjustment mechanism or tax, which could be in these changes. The steel produced in Wales, for example, has half the carbon of Chinese steel coming in. Over time, we want to be in a situation where we support jobs rather than export them to China and elsewhere, where dirtier production occurs. China produces some 30% of overall carbon emissions and uses half the world’s coal-fired power stations—we are talking about 1,037, with another 300 on the way. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Secondly, will the Minister comment on why Drax is not included in the emissions trading scheme? Drax burns 7 million tonnes of wood pellets. That wood is grown in America. It is argued that the wood that is cut down is replaced. Even if it is, that in itself is a neutral operation, but then it is burned here, and it is not counted in our carbon emissions. That is amazing, given that it is the biggest emitter of PM10 in Europe. We basically spend £800 million subsidising it, which is £114 a tonne. In burning wood and coal, we burn a carbon store, but in burning wood, we also destroy a way of absorbing CO2 and producing oxygen.

Thirdly, on airlines and aircraft, I am aware that British Airways is buying up Welsh farms in order to get the carbon offset to fly more planes. Some of those farms are sheep farms, so we will end up flying in Australian sheep and lamb, having basically allowed BA to use this scheme to create more carbon emissions through their planes.

Finally, will the Minister comment on the Government’s plan to double incineration by 2030? What impact will that have, and how will it be factored into the scheme, if at all?

18:27
Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank all Members for participating in this debate. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test mentioned the trouble with the lift opposite the Strangers’ Bar. It can sometimes be confusing, taking a lift directly outside a bar. I have to say that I took one of the two lifts there and came up without any difficulty. To be fair, he may well have taken the other lift, and it may well also not stop at the first floor. I am sure that the House authorities will want to have a look at it. Perhaps they might also find an explanation for the SNP’s failure to attend the Committee, which may also have its origin in that interesting feature of the House as it has been reconstructed.

The hon. Gentleman said that the draft order was not controversial, and I agree. He described the evolution of the affirmative SI that we are considering today, and he is correct that it is generated out of the 2020 order. One set of changes is subject to the negative procedure, and one set is subject to the affirmative procedure—particularly those changes that create new offences, which is what is before us today.

The hon. Gentleman asked two questions about the UK ETS system in general. Its intention, as he sees it, is to shadow the EU ETS. I do not think that is the right way to describe it. Its original features were based on the EU’s ETS scheme. He is right that our prices have been higher, but I would not say drastically so; as the hon. Member for Rotherham pointed out, they have been around 5% higher. We never said that the prices—or, indeed, the eligible elements within the scheme—would necessarily track, but the hon. Member for Southampton, Test is right that there is a common origin.

In terms of linking mechanisms, we are open to dialogue with the European Union in consideration of linking to the EU scheme. That follows our commitments in the trade and co-operation agreement. The two sides updated each other at the trade specialised committee on 12 October.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about the EU carbon border adjustment mechanisms. As he will know, that is an EU proposal that has not yet been legislated for. In my previous ministerial role at the Department for International Trade, the UK was well aware of that proposal, and we continue to watch it very closely. The two things that I would say in relation to it are that it needs to be World Trade Organisation compliant, and that we must make sure it does not discriminate against genuine developing countries. I know that the hon. Member for Rotherham, in her role as Chair of the International Development Committee, will take a strong interest in that point as well.

It is always good to hear about the practical impact that Government decisions and policies can have on successful small and medium-sized enterprises such as Beatson Clark in the constituency of the hon. Member for Rotherham, which has been there since 1751—a remarkable achievement in its own right. We want to make sure that, having been around for 271 years, that company might have a future for the next 271 years, so I will pass on the information about it to the Minister for Industry, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), who is more directly involved with the glass sector.

To respond to the points that the hon. Lady raised, we are in daily contact with energy-intensive industry stakeholders regarding ongoing concerns over energy markets. Ministers and officials continue to engage with industry to further understand the impacts of high global gas prices. Our priority is to ensure that costs are managed and supplies of energy are maintained. We are committed to minimising energy costs for businesses, which is vital. In 2020, relief to energy-intensive industries for electricity policy costs alone was worth over £470 million.

Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In debates like this I am normally arguing for steel, which I also have in my constituency. I know that Liberty Steel was a beneficiary of those grants, but I do not think that glass is getting the same support as steel. If the Minister could look into that issue, I would be extremely grateful.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will certainly look into that in conjunction with the Minister for Industry; I will make sure that he is aware of the issue that the hon. Lady raises. As she rightly pointed out in her speech, allowances were allocated freely in 2021. The 2022 free allocation amounted to 42 million allowances, as it did the year before, and will be issued by 28 February 2022, in advance of the 2021 compliance deadline of 30 April 2022. There is good continuity of approach there.

By putting a price on carbon emissions, the UK ETS incentivises market participants to find the most cost-effective solutions to decarbonising. We understand, of course, that there is a risk of carbon leakage, which we mentioned just a moment ago in relation to the EU’s approach. The UK ETS authority, which is the four Governments in the United Kingdom together, will consult in the coming months on the trajectory of the scheme’s cap, particularly to keep it aligned to our net zero obligation. As part of that consultation, we intend to review our free allocation in the UK ETS, for which we will start a call for evidence in the spring. Energy prices, policy and taxes are all things that we keep under constant review—particularly taxes—so I can assure the hon. Lady that we already have a total review.

Turning to the points made by the hon. Member for Swansea West, in terms of Drax, it is important to recognise that policies are not specific to any particular company. Currently, installations that use only biomass are out of the scope of the ETS, but I can take away the points that he made and follow up on them. He mentioned British Airways flying in Australian sheep; I think he might have meant sheepmeat or lamb meat, rather than the sheep themselves. Having negotiated the Australian trade deal, I am pretty sure that the movement of sheep themselves would not be within scope.

Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Just for clarity, the point I was trying to make was simply that British Airways is buying up sheep farms in order to offset the aircraft it uses to send people on holiday or whatever, and—separately from that—that obviously gives rise to less sheep production in Wales. We have an open-door deal with Australia to allow exports of sheep, so we end up displacing consumption of Welsh sheep with consumption of Australian sheep and burning more carbon, which does not seem to be very good, either economically or environmentally.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me down the path of debating the Australia free trade agreement—

None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Which the Minister will not follow.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Which I will not go down. The two of us have been here before—I know that he is a member of the International Trade Committee—but I will not engage with him on the topic of British Airways and Welsh farms.

I thank hon. Members for their valuable contributions to today’s debate. This order will help improve the effective operation of the UK ETS and, in doing so, will help support delivery of our climate ambitions. I therefore commend it to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2022.

18:35
Committee rose.

Westminster Hall

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.

Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.

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Monday 31 January 2022
[Sir Mark Hendrick in the Chair]

Stalking Advocates

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.

Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

16:30
Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before I call the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) to open the debate, I wish to make a short statement about the sub judice resolution. I have been advised that the petition being debated today directly relates to the death of Gracie Spinks in June last year. An investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct is ongoing, and the inquest relating to the death of Gracie Spinks remains active. Mr Speaker has agreed to exercise the discretion given to the Chair in respect of the resolution on matters sub judice to allow limited reference to the death of Gracie Spinks. However, I ask that Members do not refer to the detailed speculation about the circumstances surrounding the death, including the conduct of the police in this case.

I remind Members to observe social distancing, and to wear masks. I invite Tonia Antoniazzi to move the motion.

16:31
Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
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I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 593769, relating to funding for stalking advocates.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Mark. As you say, this case is sub judice, so I will not go into details in my contribution. However, I pay heartfelt tribute to the parents of Gracie Spinks, who are here. I spoke to Richard and Alison last week, and was very moved by their story, but also angered. The trauma that they have gone through is unimaginable, and I hope that I am able to do them and Gracie proud today.

I also put on record my thanks to Jackie Barnett-Wheatcroft for starting this important petition, and for taking the time to speak to me last week. The petition, which has more than 105,000 signatures, states:

“The Government should provide more funding for stalking advocates for victims of stalking. This would help support victims, and should also help the police to investigate cases more thoroughly, potentially helping prevent threats to life.”

That seems a wholly appropriate way to deal with this issue, and there must be best practice that can be shared between police forces to make sure that the tragedy we are talking about cannot happen again. When I spoke to Richard and Alison, and to Jackie last week, one thing that struck me was their determination to find a solution to this issue.

Gracie’s case is a tragic reminder of what seems to be the ever-rising problem of violence against women and girls. Gracie had reported her stalker to the police, which, as we know, takes a huge amount of courage. What I am about to outline is not specifically about Gracie’s case, but there may be some similarities with it. Many women are dismissed by the police when they report violence perpetrated by men. Time and again, we have seen cases of women murdered by men who they have recently or previously complained about. Just this week, Yasmin Chkaifi was killed by her ex-husband. He had an interim stalking protection order against him, and was wanted by the police for breaking it, but despite this, he still found the opportunity to kill Yasmin in the street, just yards from her home—her safe place. In Swansea, we have seen the smirking face of Stephen Hill, who beat his girlfriend so badly that she needed a metal plate put in her head. He was given a sentence of just over two years—two years for life-changing injuries.

This is not the first time that I have spoken about violence against women. Just a few months ago, we were in this Chamber debating the rise in drink spiking, and over the past 12 months, we have been inundated with stories of serious attacks on, and murders of, women across the country. We have rightly been appalled by the murder of Sarah Everard at the hands of a policeman; the police’s taking photographs of sisters Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman after they were murdered in a park; and the killing of Sabina Nessa as she walked through her local park. It cannot go on like this. The Government must recognise that we have an epidemic on our hands.

When women approach the police for support, they are often turned away and made to feel as though they are wasting police time. If someone is mugged or burgled, they are not asked to provide evidence, but a victim of stalking is. The onus is put on the victim. Many stalkers are also guilty of other crimes against their victims. Affray, criminal damage, voyeurism and other offences are often recorded in stalking cases. If a stalking advocate were on a police force, a link between those offences could be established, and we could avoid such cases as those that we are talking about today.

Much is made of postcode lotteries, but we have a police force lottery when it comes to imposing stalking protection orders. It appears that some forces are using them to much better effect than others. We need to ensure that their use to good effect is replicated. A BBC investigation in March 2021 found that only two full orders had been granted in the whole of Wales since the introduction of stalking protection orders in January 2020, despite more than 3,000 stalking offences being reported to the four police forces. It is paramount that we find out how some forces are protecting women; that information then needs to be shared across the board. Much of this comes down to the training that officers receive. How are police forces learning from their mistakes and improving outcomes for all victims of stalking?

There are also issues with trivialising the crime of stalking. I know that I have used the verb to describe having a nose at somebody on social media, and that is not acceptable. It makes it a bit of a joke, when we know that it is not, and we must all recognise that. The dangers that social media can pose cannot continue to go unchecked. We have become so much more connected. That is great for staying in touch with family and friends, but it exposes us to the dangers of having our details available to the world. Posting photos, checking into places and keeping location services on are tools that can be used to find people. Where there are no checks on people setting up accounts, stalkers can create numerous accounts and use them to bombard victims with messages.

Just last week, stories were emerging about the new threat of people using Apple AirTags to follow women without their consent. Tracking devices such as AirTags and Tile are designed to be attached to things that we may lose, such as ours keys or bag, so that we can locate them from our phone, but in the wrong hands they are the ideal tools for stalking and locating someone. Stories emerged last week of that happening in America, and of women having to rely on a beep from the offending device. Even more worryingly, only 100,000 Android users out of a potential 3 million have downloaded an app that Android users are being asked to install that identifies such tracking devices.

Safety concerns about devices and technologies used in the home, such as smart speakers giving away someone’s location, or smart devices getting hacked and compromising home security, have not yet been addressed properly by the tech giants. They need to step up and take action. They have a duty of care to everyone using their products and services. I am not sure whether the Minister has had conversations with any of them, but I would welcome their engagement on the issue, and would be interested in hearing more about how she will approach that. I thank her for her engagement on the subject after I sent over questions earlier. We want and need a constructive discussion. I know that she has met the petitioner, Jackie, but I hope that she will agree to meet the family, and other families, to discuss the best way forward.

In the meantime, very simply there are a number of questions that I, and I am sure the family and friends of Gracie and many others, would appreciate the answers to. How many stalking prevention orders have been given out since they were introduced? Are they uniformly spread across all police forces, or are some doing better than others? What assessment has been made of the pilot scheme being run by West Midlands police? Has the Minister discussed with Government colleagues and police representatives the introduction of stalking advocates to police forces in order to deal with the issue? We would also like to know whether there has been an audit of other offences recorded against perpetrators who are later convicted of stalking. It is those red flags that could stop women such as Gracie being murdered.

The themes running through my research on this subject were that police forces need to share best practice in a much more structured and regulated way, and that training across all forces needs to be massively improved—although “massively” does not go far enough. The Minister needs to take a strong lead on these issues, and shadow Front-Bench Members and I are willing to help in any way we can. I echo the calls in the petition for an advocate on each police force to be made available to victims of stalking. Patterns of behaviour can be identified if someone is looking for them, but many police forces simply do not have the time to do that.

Women want to feel safe, but we do not. Just look at this case, and look at the number of women killed in the last 12 months. Every year, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) on the Front Bench reads out the number and names of the women killed at the hands of men that year. It is a stark reminder to all of us that we are not getting any better on this, and that we need to address the issue. Look at the conviction rates for rape that have just been released. Look at the Met’s response to the Sarah Everard vigil. As a country, we must do better, and I want to work with the Minister across the House to make sure that happens. Gracie’s parents have made it clear that they will not let this go; I will not let it go, either. Things must change. I will continue to fight for women everywhere who are suffering at the hands of men.

16:41
Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. It is an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), who already knows that she is one of my favourite Members of the House. She gave an exceptional and incredibly powerful speech. I fully endorse her comments on best practice and advocates in police forces, and, indeed, the questions she raised. She opened the debate in a really suitable and fitting way.

This debate comes after a horrible event took place in the constituency of my neighbour, the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins), who is present. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley) is in the Gallery; I know that this issue is very close to his heart, and that he wishes he could speak in the debate, although his role on the Front Bench prevents him from doing so. Hopefully, I will do him justice as well.

Victim support is important, and fostering an open and honest culture around stalking, domestic abuse and sexual violence, so that victims feel safe to come forward, is a massive challenge, particularly in areas that are a bit more rural and where education levels are perhaps not quite where we would like them to be. We need well-resourced, locally engaged police forces to protect communities such as those in Bolsover.

I offer my sincerest thanks to Jackie Barnett-Wheatcroft for setting up this petition. I know it must have been very difficult to speak so publicly, and it really demonstrates her courage and strength of character that she has brought about this debate with her activism. I should also say that I have met the Minister to discuss these issues, and I know that she takes them incredibly seriously. I know that she will be able to go only so far in her response, and that there is a big cultural issue that we need to address. She is incredibly committed to ensuring that we make progress in this field. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), is perhaps the most vocal and passionate Member of the House on a matter that we all care about very much.

The fact that Gracie Spinks’s death took place in a neighbouring constituency is reflected in the number of signatures—nearly 6,000—from my Bolsover constituency. That shows the strength of local feeling. I have been a Member of this House for two years and one month. The Petitions Committee has been functioning in various iterations during the covid pandemic, and every week I have watched on with envy as all the emails come through for different petitions, because Bolsover has never appeared in the list of most supportive constituencies. That number of signatures really shows how important this issue is to my constituents, so I thank the petitioners.

We are here to talk about the lessons learned and the need for further action. It is an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, and I appreciate that matters being sub judice means that we are unable to go into detail, but Gracie Spinks’s case is not the only high-profile case to have impacted my constituency. In another serious incident, in Tibshelf, the police were able to enforce a restraining order in a robust and effective response. Such incidents are harrowing ordeals for all involved, and effective intervention can and will save lives and protect our families, friends, neighbours and daughters.

I am a Conservative Back Bencher, so I want to make some defence of the Government, who are trying to take action on this matter. It is staggering, however, that 1.5 million people have suffered stalking in the past year; the number is almost unfathomable. I appreciate that it is not just men who engage in stalking—that is a perfectly fine caveat—but there is a challenge around masculinity and malehood, and a culture around being a man that can be deeply corrosive and that needs to be challenged. It is not a bad thing to be a man and sometimes not know the answers. I appreciate that I am a man, albeit a gay one, and some people will not like that, but hey.

There is challenge in being a man in a culture in which we are exposed to things on the internet that we were perhaps not exposed to before; in which we are challenged by culture from different sources; and in which we may not be as educated as we need to be. There is often a lack of role models, and a lack of people who can say, “No, that is not right.” There is a challenge around that. It is not impossible to overcome, but we must undoubtedly focus on and acknowledge it, and we must present pathways to ensure that it does not escalate to a point where women and girls are threatened.

Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that education in our schools on consent and relationships is key? The best time to get the message across about good, healthy relationships and how to deal with everybody is the time between a person’s being a small child and their becoming an adult.

Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I agree wholeheartedly. Indeed, until not long ago, my husband worked for an organisation that used to go into schools to help spread tolerance and understanding—albeit in a slightly different field—to ensure that people were comfortable from a young age with those conversations, their rights, and people who may be a bit different. That is incredibly important.

This is an aside that I did not intend to make, but I visited Bolsover School only a couple of weeks ago, and I was absolutely blown away by the tolerance and understanding that I saw there. It was a sign of progress from when I was at school, and a sign that things were being challenged that I did not think would be in my adult life. The subject that we are discussing inevitably leads us to focus on the bad, but it is important that we highlight and praise progress, because that encourages other schools and people to step forward and learn.

Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for being generous with his time. It is great to see progress in schools, and that progress should be celebrated. But is he concerned about the online harm to which children are being exposed—about what the web is offering them and the problems that that causes? And does he agree that that is why the online harms Bill will have to deal with those issues robustly?

Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I absolutely do. We seem to be in general agreement, which may be more worrying for my Whips than anybody else. Obviously, the shadow Minister who is responsible for the online harms Bill is very much a mutual friend of ours. The question of what is accessible on the internet is worrying in a variety of lights, but critical thought and being able to understand what is normal and what is right are also important. It is incredibly important for that to be taught in a variety of fields in the 21st century. That ranges from everything that we do and discuss here and everything that we see in the news, through to how we behave in relationships.

I find some of these issues incredibly difficult to discuss, because I grew up in an abusive household. I have spoken about it in the past. I was a victim of domestic abuse—I had an incredibly abusive stepfather—when I was younger. I perhaps come at the subject from the viewpoint that nobody is perfect. I have struggled to define myself as an adult male and, not wishing to make a huge thing of my sexuality, as an openly gay male in Doncaster as well and to find my place. I understand that some of those things are a great challenge for any person, but being a role model, encouraging people to be the best that they can be and, as the hon. Member for Gower rightly says, ensuring that the pathways are there and that the things that people are looking at online are challenged in the correct way is really important.

I got waylaid by the intervention. Fortunately, we have a 90-minute debate and not many speakers, so if I may, I will return to a point that I wanted to make as an aside. Quite recently, we had another event, in Langwith in my constituency, and it resulted in a very high-profile murder. Derbyshire police were incredibly impressive in how they handled that, how they dealt with the community and how they briefed individuals. There are moments when we are very proud of our local police force, and I think it is only right to highlight in this discussion the fact that there is good as well as bad.

It is also worth stating that the Government have, I think, open ears and are very determined to take whatever suggestions will work. That is really important. There is £151 million for victim and witness support, but the most important bit of money that is being spent is the £3 million to understand better the social causes of violence against women and girls, because there are underlying issues of education and culture, some of which have been alluded to both in the opening remarks and in our general discussion, that I think are really important to tackle.

Therefore I thank very much those who brought forward and signed the petition, and I look forward to future contributions—I am sure that that of the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) will be in a similar vein. The issue definitely should not be party political, because our women and girls are far too important for us to toss it around as a political football. It should unite the nation and unite us as politicians, because this problem must end. Those of us who have been victims, in whichever form, know the importance of standing up, and of seeing people stand up collectively, so I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s views as well. We need to work together to tackle a culture that must end.

16:54
Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), a constituency neighbour. It is a great shame that the debate coincides with the Prime Minister’s statement, because a number of other hon. Members would have liked to be in the Chamber and would have been in different circumstances. But these are the vagaries of the political calendar, as we all know.

I start by paying tribute to Richard, Alison and the whole family, because they have faced a grief and an anguish that is every parent’s worst nightmare. There is almost nothing worse for a parent than attending their child’s funeral, but to attend the funeral of their child in such circumstances, while thinking that steps might have been taken to prevent it, is an unspeakable anguish that no parent should have to tolerate. They have responded to that appalling chasm of grief by saying that they want to get something positive out of it. They know that they cannot bring Gracie back, but they want to support other families so that they do not suffer the same kind of grief. That is inspirational and it makes me very proud to have them as constituents and friends.

I would like to pay tribute to Jackie Barnett-Wheatcroft, who started the petition. Jackie leapt into action as soon as the funeral had passed, initially introducing a paper petition that was supported by the entire community and had over 17,000 signatures in a matter of weeks. Jackie counted them all, which was quite a performance. I will be presenting a paper petition later this evening that will also refer to that. Having being told that a debate in Parliament needed an e-petition, Jackie worked with the parliamentary authorities, assisted by the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), to get a petition on the parliamentary system. That has led to today’s debate.

The funeral of Gracie Spinks was attended by thousands, and her murder sent shockwaves through the people of Chesterfield and beyond, as the hon. Member for Bolsover said. Many people in Chesterfield would have liked to have been here if covid restrictions had not prevented it. The outpouring of grief and anger that followed Gracie’s murder did not surface just because of the tragedy of a vibrant life cut needlessly short. There was also the sense that more could have been done to save her and that the support a victim of stalking receives is so often inadequate. That is what brings us to the debate today. Gracie’s family and the wider Gracie’s law campaigners are determined that some good must come from that appalling tragedy and that we should all do all we can to prevent other families suffering the same heartbreak that Gracie’s family endure daily. The petition is an important part of that campaign.

When the petition achieved 10,000 signatures, the Government responded and pointed out the contribution they have made to the stalking advocacy charity Paladin. They also referred to other stalking advocacy charities, such as the Suzy Lamplugh Trust. They referred to the tackling violence against women and girls strategy. I suspect that we will hear about those from the Minister today. Just like the hon. Member for Bolsover, I will hope that, in recognising the steps that Government have taken, there will also be a recognition that the experience of Gracie’s family and others tells us that far more needs to be done.

I entirely agree with what the hon. Member for Bolsover said about cultural change and the difficulties that some men experience in recognising their role in an everchanging world, but there needs to be a real focus within the debate on policing, justice, access to the courts and enforcement of the law, as well as measures to prevent people from stalking. In advance of the debate, I spoke to Paladin to understand more about the barriers that victims face and to hear more what it sees as the steps that would make a difference. Paladin explained that stalking is often misunderstood, both by the wider public and by police forces. It can be misrepresented as domestic violence, but in Gracie’s case, and indeed in many cases, there has never been a relationship between the stalker and the victim. Some victims have never even met their stalkers. The nature of the offence is often misunderstood and incorrectly recorded.

The nature of the stalking can often progress and change shape and increase in its intensity and obsession. It will also often be a series of acts, some of which are criminal offences and others of which are not. Offences such as vandalising a victim’s car or making malicious communications end up being recorded as a series of individual criminal damage offences, rather than being recognised as a collective campaign of stalking. In common with many other crimes that take place predominantly against women, stalking charities tell me that police often place a huge burden of proof on victims before they start investigating, in a way that is not expected with other crimes. When someone phones the police to complain that they have been a victim of a house burglary or have had their phone nicked, it is accepted as fact that the crime they are reporting has been committed, whereas with this sort of crime, there is an expectation that victims will turn up armed with evidence to get an investigation going. That frustration at the lack of investigation and detection is a common complaint of stalking victims and their families.

Alongside the physical manifestations of stalking, the majority of incidents often have an online aspect. That could be threats made online, posting things that are designed to be embarrassing or intimidatory, posting abusive messages or posting about doing harm to a victim. That leaves a footprint, and often if police followed up and investigated the online presence of accused stalkers, they would identify the evidence they need. However, because such events are often recorded as criminal damage, malicious communications or other lesser offences, the wider investigation simply does not happen. A lot of the evidence I have heard and seen in this case is that if only a number of different events had been pieced together in a single picture, there might have been greater support for Gracie.

The petition asks the Government to increase funding to ensure that there are people advocating for victims of stalking in every police force. That aspect of the petition is incredibly important, and I stress it to the Minister, because the response given when the petition reached 10,000 signatures was predominantly about supporting stalking advocacy charities. Charities such as Paladin do amazing work going into police forces and training up officers and providing a kit that officers can use. However, we need that culture within the police—not a junior person doing that but someone with the authority within the force to ensure that that culture changes and that every single police officer protects people in the ways that we should want for our own daughters if we were reporting the issue. The postcode lottery and inconsistency of service—both from force to force and even within forces, depending on which officer picks up the case—are entirely unacceptable. The need for all forces to have a specific case manager with an appropriately senior ranking to ensure that stalking is properly understood and appropriately policed is urgent. I stress that when we talk about stalking advocacy, we are talking about supporting charities, but we are also talking about having an advocate inside police forces who will make sure that the voices of victims are heard.

There are other aspects of the issue that we can deal with here in this place. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) referred to the appallingly lenient sentences handed out in the case she mentioned, which we have all seen. I will speak a little more in a moment about the impact of stalking on victims, and it is imperative that the Government recognise the physical and mental torture of stalking on its victims, and that sentences should be appropriately severe. It is also crucial that the backlog in court cases is tackled, because we cannot underestimate the number of people who go to the police and then find 12, 18 or 24 months later that offences that have been reported have still not reached court. Often victims will say, “I simply can’t cope with waiting for this any longer. I want it over.” As a result, they will not go through with the process and the perpetrators will get away with it. Often they will hear about the appalling situation in our courts and decide not to pursue the case with the police.

For Gracie, it was very much a case of her wanting it to stop. She was not necessarily looking to pursue the legal aspects; she wanted appropriate support. A whole range of victims out there are being failed by our police, by our sentencing regime, and by the fact that they are unable to get into court to have their cases heard. Each is central to the question, as are all the important points raised within the strategy about the culture, tackling perpetrators, trying to discourage and other things. We need to make sure that we get the policing, sentencing and court availability right.

As I said a moment ago, there is a key role for stalking awareness charities such as Paladin. They do great work in improving the knowledge base of police forces, but the charitable sector is only part of the solution. I reiterate that the petition demands that the Government recognise the failure that the Spinks family experienced and take action to ensure that a culture of understanding and zero tolerance is endemic in every police force. A specific stalking advocate within the police force would be expected to have regular oversight of stalking cases and ensure that officers developed the understanding and skills that are too often lacking. Gracie Spinks’s case had the most appalling ending imaginable—the nightmare of every parent. Thankfully, most cases do not end in violent murder, but the impact on all victims of stalking is profound.

Stalking victims are not free. They are constantly looking over their shoulder and are forced, more than the rest of us, to be careful. They go out to their car in the morning, wondering whether it will have been attacked. They open their post, wondering whether they will be greeted by an abusive message. They turn on their computer, wondering what will have been posted to them or about them. Every time they answer their phones, they do not wonder whether it will be a payment protection insurance salesman, but whether the anonymous number will be spouting a torrent of hateful or disturbing abuse. They develop a habitat of looking out for a certain car; every red Ford Fiesta gives a victim a chill of fear if that is what they know their perpetrator drives, until they can assure themselves that it is not the same car. Not all victims of stalking end up in a graveyard, but they are all scarred and it is so important that we give them the support that they need. There are male victims and female perpetrators of stalking, but it is predominantly a crime committed by men against women. It is about power and control, and although it can take many forms, its effects are always debilitating.

The petition is of tremendous importance, as is the Minister’s response. I was asked in a TV interview today how important the debate was, and I had to say, “I don’t know. It’s all about the actions that the Government take.” We all know that we are in the process of discussing a huge number of issues in this place, and there is a widespread desire across the political spectrum to take action and prevent stalking. I am absolutely certain that the Minister takes the issue as seriously as I do, but it is a case of whether there are the necessary resources, legal backing, sentencing support and determination to address the court shortage, and whether we have taken all the steps that need to be taken for us to be able to look a family in the eye and say we have genuinely done all that we can. The petitioners demand that the Government recognise that the steps taken so far are not adequate, and that standards of policing must improve for stalking victims.

We are in the later stages of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, and we are told that the Government also intend to introduce a victims Bill. Both those Bills seem to be appropriate vehicles to bring forward a Gracie’s law, to ensure that funding is provided for a stalking advocate in every police force, leading to better protection for victims of stalking, and that those obligations on police forces are written into law.

We can never say that Gracie Spinks will be the last victim of a stalker. Tragically, that is almost certainly not the case, but those of us in this place can resolve to do all we can to ensure that police forces understand the crime and have the resources to tackle it, so that more families like Gracie’s are not left asking, “Why wasn’t something done?”

17:10
Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark, and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) and all the Members who have spoken.

The hardest, but most rewarding, part of my job since becoming a Member of Parliament is getting to know the families of women and girls taken by male-perpetrated violence against women. It is always a total honour to meet the families. I am always totally bowled over by their resilience and desire to change the future for the better for other women; and Gracie’s family, and the case of Gracie’s law, is absolutely no exception. Gracie’s law is never going to bring people’s families back, but there is a desire to change things so that other families will not end up with their daughters’ names being read out on a list. I have yet to read out Gracie’s name on the list—I will do it in March—but we have to all do whatever we can to make sure that that list gets shorter, not longer.

On the point made by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher)—with whom it is an honour to debate these matters—this is a totally cross-party issue. There was a time, perhaps even when I first got here, when I may have questioned some people’s views on these issues, and there was certainly a time, when I started working in violence against women and girls services, when I absolutely felt it was party political issue, whereby some political parties—not necessarily just the one that he is a member of—did not take it as seriously. I do not think for a second now that that is the case or that there is any political party in this building that does not care about this issue. I do not doubt for a second that the Minister cares very deeply about the issue, but it is my job—and will be my job for the rest of time—to point out where things are going wrong and what needs to be done about that.

Quite rightly, my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield pointed out that the case on which this petition hinges was not a domestic homicide; it was a case of an unrelated person, not an ex-partner, and—it is almost never that I think this—those cases can be even harder to prosecute and get action on, because there is now at least a base understanding in most police forces now around the idea that stalking is part of a pattern of domestic abuse. The role of stalking in domestic homicide must also be acknowledged, as well as the seriousness of the crime and what it can lead to.

Half of stalkers who make threats act on them, and some of these end in murder. Jane Monckton Smith has written extensively about what leads up to a fatal situation from stalking. Her study of 358 criminal homicides in the UK, all of which consisted of a female victim and a male perpetrator, revealed that stalking behaviour was an antecedent in 94% of all murders. So this is something very, very serious, and it is an alarm bell that should be being rung loudly, in order for us to end the most serious of crimes.

Between 2015 and 2017, a freedom of information request by news platform Vice and Paladin, the stalking charity that has already been mentioned, revealed that 60 women were murdered after they reported their partner, their ex-partner or a stalker to the police on grounds of domestic abuse and stalking. That is 60 women who had reported in just a two-year period. I stand here as a Birmingham Member, and I often outline that three women are murdered each week, on average, every year. In Birmingham, in the last nine days three women have been murdered—or killed, should I say. It just seems relentless. In those 60 cases in that two-year period, those men all had a history of harming other women, yet there was no proactive risk identification assessment or management of the perpetrators.

A previous history of stalking or abuse and a pattern of coercive control within a perpetrator’s relationship with his victim have both been identified as stages in the eight-stage domestic homicide timeline outlined by Jane Monckton Smith. In short, stalking is an identifiable precursor to killing. We must see it as a pattern of behaviour and it must be appropriately identified. An intervention can save a woman’s life, and we must ensure that reports are acted upon. The advocates that this petition calls for would undoubtedly help that.

Just last week, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) has already cited, there was the case of Yasmin Chkaifi. Without even having to go into the sub judice of Gracie’s case—I really wish this was not the case—there are hundreds of cases we can lean on to identify the same failures. In the case of Yasmin, she was stabbed to death in Maida Vale this month by Leon McCaskre. In the press it is reported that a friend of Yasmin had said that she had received text messages two years ago saying:

“He’s had cameras in my house recording me for months.”

Yasmin added:

“He’s stolen my mail, my phone, has access to all my personal data. I think he will kill me. I’ve tried everything.”

The press reports that McCaskre was wanted by the police when he killed Yasmin. The warrant saying that he should be held without bail was issued on 4 January after he failed to appear in court. McCaskre was accused of breaching an interim stalking protection order.

I will come to those orders, as they have been raised. I have worked in domestic abuse, sexual violence, stalking and human trafficking services for a good many years. We can make up as many good orders as we like, but an order is absolutely worthless unless the police act on breaches of it and unless there is a well-resourced police force that can, in that moment, go out, investigate the breach and make an arrest that leads to somebody being imprisoned—which, in the case of Yasmin, would have saved her life. In my experience, when I say, “Have you ever considered getting an order?”, this is the reaction I get: “Yeah, I’ve got about four.” I have personally got four restraining orders; I have been a victim of stalking and harassment. There are people in prison and sectioned for undertaking that abuse against me; and unsurprisingly their orders did not stop them.

There are other cases. Asher Maslin stalked and murdered Hollie Gazzard. Myself and the Minister met Hollie’s family. Maslin was involved in 24 violent offences, including three against Hollie, 12 against former partners, three against his mother and four against others. There was no proactive join-up of this information nor risk management. Ian Paton strangled Kayleigh Hanks to death in July 2018. He had strangled three other people, including his ex-partner, before he killed Kayleigh. There was no risk assessment or risk management of his behaviour.

Managing repeat offenders is a real concern. Research indicates that up to 56% of those charged with stalking go on to reoffend after prosecution. We already know that it is a tiny fraction who will have been prosecuted in the first place. Perpetrators’ histories are not checked, and links are not made.

Two inspections by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary revealed deeply troubling findings. Its 2014 inspection into police responses to domestic abuse revealed no risk management of perpetrators. In 2017, “Living in Fear”, a report specifically on stalking produced by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services—HMIC’s name changed in the intervening three years, and got a lot longer—revealed a 100% failure in every police service and the Crown Prosecution Service across the six areas it inspected. Out of 112 cases, not one case was properly investigated, and no stalker was proactively risk assessed or risk managed.

The most recent HMICFRS report was similarly damning. It identified that repeat offenders in the areas of stalking, harassment, abuse and violence against women were time and again not being monitored, with no offender management and no monitoring in the community of the most serious risk of harm perpetrators. Imagine if I was talking about terrorism—imagine if there were people like that living on your street and not being monitored by any intelligence agency. The trouble is that when the newspapers report these cases, the police say, “Don’t worry, nobody else is at risk”—as if all women are not at risk from the kind of hatred that killed Gracie.

Operation Soteria has been undertaken already at Avon and Somerset police, and recently at the Met—we await the findings of that when the Home Office decides that we should have them. What was found in Avon and Somerset, and I have absolutely no doubt also in the Met, was that when people were being accused of rape, abuse and stalking on the streets, as well as in relationships, police forces were routinely not even checking the accused on the system to find out if they were a repeat offender. Imagine that: “This man raped me.” “Maybe check it on the system.” That is a fundamental failing, and I cannot look at these failings across the board for every crime that women are victims of and just fall back on the idea that it is complex. It is not that complex. It is like burglary of a house: it is not that complex. Every woman who comes forward and says, “I feel scared by this,” should be listened to.

Victims have no faith in the system, and legal advocates would without question improve that. Out of 75 victim respondents surveyed, fewer than two thirds indicated that they had reported stalking to the police in the UK, citing a lack of trust in the police and the wider criminal justice system. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust’s survey of over 1,000 officers in the UK found that only 35% of police respondents had ever received stalking-specific training and that 10% of respondents received training over five years ago, with only 3% indicating that they were very confident in their knowledge of stalking legislation, while 13% were not confident at all. Imagine that is the one who you get, who is sent out to you—the one who is not confident in stalking legislation at all. We need better training on stalking: 82% of those respondents indicated that they wanted better training and that it was needed for the police to be better equipped.

In September 2020, the University of Central Lanc—Lancashire; sorry, I am from the midlands, not the north. I know everybody thinks it is the same place, but it is not. The University of Central Lancashire published “They speak for you when you can’t speak”, an academic review of the National Stalking Advocacy Service run by the charity Paladin. That report found that the support of an independent stalking advocacy caseworker—the specific kind of advocate that we are talking about—was critical in improving the responses of criminal justice agencies. Many victims explained how grateful they were for that advocacy and support. High-risk victims of stalking confirmed that an ISAC’s support increased their understanding of the nature and impact of stalking and the associated risk. The report also said that victims reported improved emotional wellbeing and enhanced safety as a result of the ISAC support. The advocacy improves victims’ experiences. It is vital.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield mentioned the Government’s response to the petition once it received 10,000 signatures. I pay massive tribute to people such as Jackie, who are the doers of changing the law. Every single change to the law was brought about by somebody sitting in a room saying, “This isn’t good enough.” It is people such as Jackie and Gracie’s family who will change the law—I have no doubt.

The £90,000 for extra stalking advocates is absolutely to be welcomed, but it would cover only what is necessary in Birmingham. It has been said that it is a postcode lottery across the board in terms of support for victims of violence against women and girls, and it is absolutely the case that in one place, people get a great service, while in another, people get a dreadful service.

The hon. Member for Bolsover made the point that nobody is perfect. I wrote down that I must point out that that is absolutely one of the best things I have ever heard a man in this place say about violence against women and girls. As a society, we have come to terms with the idea that we all know a victim. With #MeToo and the Sarah Everard case, women have poured their hearts out, with thousands more coming forward now than ever before. Women have stood up and said, “This happens to us.” As a society, we understand now that we all know a victim of abuse—such as the hon. Member, who spoke about what happened to him in childhood. It is deeply important.

However, the bit that we have not come to as a society—and we will not stop this unless we do—is this: we all know and love a perpetrator of violence and abuse. Statistically speaking, if we all know the victims, then we know the perpetrators—unless there is one very prolific, horrible man. We have to come to terms with the idea that these people, while they do those dreadful, monstrous things, are not necessarily the monsters they are described as. The people who stalk, abuse, rape and beat women and girls walk freely among us all the time. Until we can all come to terms with that as a society, whether through education or otherwise, cases such as Gracie’s will keep happening. We have to accept that those people exist and that they need monitoring and actioning. We need to listen to the voices of victims.

What my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield said about police reform is vital. I was an independent sexual violence adviser; advocates such as ISVAs have existed for 20 years and, for a good long spell, that advocacy massively improved the conviction rate. However, we have seen those rates tumble. Advocacy in and of itself, without proper police prioritisation—which needs to come from political prioritisation—is no longer enough.

As we continue to fail to monitor repeat offenders and to follow up on case after case where people come forward, it is no longer good enough for hon. Members to sit here and say, “We’re going to have a strategy. It’s up to police force areas what they decide to do.” With the greatest respect to Maggie Blyth—the officer put in charge of tackling violence against women and girls—when I had a meeting with her, she told me that, “I have to expect police force areas to take it on.” She has no teeth to say, “You have to do this, otherwise you’ll lose your job.” That has to come from the Home Secretary.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Perkins
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I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I was reading in detail the Government’s response to the petition when it reached 10,000 signatures. It says that,

“the College of Policing provided a set of new advice products on stalking for police first responders and call handlers, and in November 2019 it released a new product for investigators.”

I have no doubt that they are very useful things. However, it needs to be compulsory and it requires real leadership from the very top of the police force that this is a priority. Instead of it being something that officers can avail themselves of, I want it to be something that every single officer is doing. I want to see the recommendations acted upon.

Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I 100% agree. I take my hon. Friend back to my terrorism analogy: imagine if we allowed the police to freestyle how they dealt with terrorism—that we did not have specific tasks that police force areas had to follow.

The same priority is never given to male violence against women. It is never, ever considered to be the most pressing issue. More than 20% of all police call-outs are cases of violence against women and girls. Do we think that those cases get 20% of the policing budget in any area? Can we all guess? I do not want to turn this into a pantomime, Sir Mark, but I think we can all guess that they do not get anywhere near that amount. The reality is that this support has to be driven with the political will shown by the 100,000 people who signed the petition. The hon. Member for Bolsover said that he was proud that this was the issue that mattered to his people. The country has spoken again and again in the last two years—more so than ever before—to say, “This issue matters to us.”

In my lifetime of working in this area, which now seems like many lifetimes, I have never known the country to push this as an issue of political will quite as much as it has in the wake of Sarah Everard’s death. These things will only change when every police force area knows that if it does not, the chief constable will be sacked. This proposal will only work if the issue is addressed when allocations of budgets come from the Government. Although I like the £151 million, the Minister and I both know—because it has been announced quite a few times over the years—that £125 million is going to refuge accommodation and has nothing to do with the police. It will go to local councils to offer refuge accommodation—not necessarily to the standard that I would like to see, but still better than nothing.

The reality is that we in this place have to say that, crime-wise, this issue is our priority and we are going to push it through to the bitter end, so that when a Prime Minister stands up and says that the single most important thing a leader can do—the first line of Government—is to ensure the safety and security of their citizens, in their head they are remembering that women and girls exist.

Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)
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For information, the University of Central Lancashire is in Preston, in my constituency.

17:33
Rachel Maclean Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Rachel Maclean)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) on securing this debate and doing justice to this vital subject. It really is an honour to be here.

I thank the other Members who are present. I am sure that there would have been more had it not been for events in the main Chamber. Nevertheless, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) and the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) for doing an extraordinary job, as men advocating for the women and girls in their constituencies. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) and I may disagree on much, but I think we both agree that it is heartening and inspiring to see men coming together, because it is only when men stand up and demand change on behalf of women that we will see the change that we all want to see.

I also pay tribute to Jackie Barnett-Wheatcroft, who is with us today, for creating this petition. The amount of work that she has done to get this issue to the top of the agenda is not inconsiderable. It was a real pleasure and honour to speak to her and hear about her tireless efforts. She has taken this issue on because she cares about it, and that passion came across so clearly. It was wonderful to speak to her and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), who is also in the Gallery. As a Whip, he is not able to speak, but he was the conduit that allowed us to have that conversation. I pledge again that I will do everything in my power to help Jackie with her work to set up the charity, which I know will change people’s lives and be a massive source of support. To Jackie, I say thank you so much.

Of course, we must honour Gracie Spinks. Her name is not mentioned in the petition itself, but it is a tribute to her. You have enjoined me not to transgress and go beyond what I am allowed to say, Sir Mark, because the IOPC’s investigations mean this is a live case, but that does not prevent me from expressing my total shock and horror in reading about those awful events—I know that everybody shared that feeling. The issues goes wider than the area that Gracie comes from; constituents of mine in Redditch have signed the petition, as have people from across the country.

When we read about that tragic and senseless loss of life, we can all relate to it—whether or not we are parents does not matter. I extend my deepest sympathies and condolences to Richard and Alison, who are in the Public Gallery. I can only begin to imagine how terribly they must have suffered. I thank them for the tremendous amount of work they put into the petition, which has resulted in this hour-and-a-half discussion, and our dedication and effort. This is only the start of the change that they want to see.

I believe, Sir Mark, that I have enough time to set out what we are going to do, what we have already done, and what we will continue to do, as the petitioners have rightly requested.

Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)
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I remind the Minister to leave time for the Chair of the Petitions Committee to respond.

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
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Thank you for that reminder, Sir Mark; I will ensure that I leave enough time.

Stalking is at the heart of our “Tackling violence against women and girls” strategy, which we published in July. It is worth stepping back and reminding ourselves of why we needed that strategy, the consultation of which received the greatest number of responses to any Government consultation. That highlights that need, and we must all keep fighting and pushing—I include myself and the shadow Minister in that—to keep the issue at the top of the priority list for Government and for Members across the House.

We all have so many important things to focus on every day in our lives as parliamentarians but, as the shadow Minister said, the public care deeply about this topic, and that was reflected in the responses to the consultation. Of course, that was an immediate response following Sarah Everard’s death, but many other women have died—we all know about the work that the shadow Minister does every single year in Parliament to remind us of those deaths—and it is right that we continue to honour the victims in our work to take the strategy forward.

To reduce the risk of perpetrators committing further offences, as the strategy confirmed, we launched a fund for police and crime commissioners to run programmes to address the behaviour of domestic abuse and stalking perpetrators. The funds will provide programmes to cover a range of different methods for tackling stalking. It is right that we recognise that stalking only recently came on to the statute book in its current form. Our understanding is not quite as well developed as it is for many other crimes that involve serious violence against women and girls. That is why it is important that we have those programmes and evaluate the evidence so that we can understand what works. That work includes the development of a multi-agency stalking intervention project in Cambridgeshire, and the development of the compulsive and obsessive behaviour intervention programme in Surrey. The aim of all such programmes is to encourage behavioural changes to reduce the frequency and gravity of the abuse presented by the perpetrator, thereby improving the safety of and protection for the victim.

The strategy also refers to our commitments to improve the use of stalking protection orders. We introduced these orders just two years ago, and they can protect victims of stalking at the earliest possible opportunity and help to address the behaviour of perpetrators before they become entrenched or escalate. They have the flexibility to impose both restrictions and positive requirements on a perpetrator, and I am proud that the Government introduced them.

We know that there is more to do. We know that some forces have been applying for more of these orders than others. The violence against women and girls strategy confirmed that the Home Office would work with the police to ensure that all forces make proper use of the orders. That is why I have recently written to all chief constables whose forces have applied for fewer stalking protection orders than might have been expected to encourage them to always consider applying for one in stalking cases.

I did that in October, and I received responses from several forces setting out the measures they are taking to make sure these orders are being used appropriately. I am pleased that one of the responses I received was from Derbyshire police, which is rightly taking a number of actions, including the delivery of a force-wide training programme specifically for stalking offences.

Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips
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Specifically on that point, it is my understanding that as of June 2021 stalking protection orders were used in response to around only 2% of stalking arrests. Is the Minister expecting any factor of increase after her letter and after the police forces have said they are going to do this? Will it go from 2% to 4%? Obviously, I would like to see it go higher. Is the Home Office putting a target on police forces?

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
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Absolutely, we want to see the number go up. We will be publishing the figures as soon as we are able to.

This debate has rightly focused on the police response, not just in Gracie’s case—which I am not commenting on—but generally across the country. I want to talk about some of the things that the police have done. The hon. Lady referenced the 2017 inspection, which showed a number of failings, to put it that way, in the police response. Since then, forces have identified a number of improvements that have been taken forward, and they have published a national stalking and harassment improvement plan.

Every force must now have a single point of contact for stalking concerns. There is also a change in the Home Office’s crime counting, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Chesterfield. Each force must ensure that stalking is recorded as the main crime before anything else—for example, criminal damage. I think that it is a very helpful point.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Perkins
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Will the Minister give way?

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
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I will, but briefly—I do not have much time left, and I have a lot to say.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Perkins
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On the question of the single point of contact, is that for the victim or is there a single person managing the cases? If the latter, could she tell us about the seniority of the officer?

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will respond in writing to the hon. Gentleman, because I cannot do justice to that question in the time that I have left. I will come back to him on that.

I want to get on record some of the other vital protections and improvements in the police response across the country. It is vital that the police are provided with the correct materials and training to deal with stalking appropriately to ensure that they are confident in identifying stalking cases. That is why new advice and training products are being made available to police first responders, call handlers and investigators, making clear the key differences between stalking and harassment.

The hon. Member for Gower asked for information on the west midlands pilot. We have confirmed £11.3 million funding for PCCs to run programmes to address stalking and to evaluate the success of this work. The project is in its early stages, but we will provide her with an update from the west midlands police and crime commissioner when we are able to.

The violence against women and girls strategy also confirmed that the Home Office has this financial year tripled the funding that we provide to the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which runs the national stalking helpline. That funding is enabling it, among other things, to expand its advocacy work. Since July, the trust has used the funding to provide advocacy support for 29 people who are particularly vulnerable or whose cases are particularly complex. I visited the helpline in November, and it was an incredible experience to see at first hand its vital work and how it is helping so many victims.

Hon. Members will be aware from our response to the petition last August of the additional funding for the national stalking helpline and of the almost £100,000 that we provided to Paladin, which many Members mentioned. I thank Paladin for what it does. We provided funding to it between April 2020 and March 2021 to provide additional independent stalking advocacy caseworkers during the height of the pandemic. The provision of ISACs trained by Paladin is also part of the Home Office’s funding to the Merseyside police and crime commissioner to address the behaviour of stalking perpetrators.

In the current financial year, the Ministry of Justice will have provided just over £150 million for victim and witness support services, including an extra £51 million to increase support for sexual violence and domestic abuse victims. That includes funding for independent domestic violence advisers. Domestic abuse funding can include stalking that takes place in a domestic context, where the stalker might be a former partner or a family member of the victim. It is open to police and crime commissioners to use their core, un-ringfenced funding to fund ISACs. The point has been made that stalking does not always take place in a domestic violence or abuse context. It is also correct to say that we do not ring fence funding for independent stalking advocacy caseworkers in the same way that we do for equivalent roles in domestic abuse and sexual violence, as the petition and many Members have referenced.

I will move on to the work that is being led by the Deputy Prime Minister on the victims Bill. A consultation that includes questions about advocacy services is open, and the consultation paper is clear that it focuses primarily on domestic abuse and sexual violence advocates. That is because we have a more developed understanding of those positions, Government funding for the roles and what is needed, but we appreciate that similar roles, such as ISACs, exist and are helpful. There are questions in the consultation that apply equally to all advocacy services. The consultation remains open until this Thursday, and I encourage anyone who is interested to submit their response.

Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Perkins
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Is it the Minister’s view that the proposal made in the Gracie’s law petition would be best applied to the victims Bill or to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, or is her argument that we do not need legislation in this area?

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I am making no such argument. On the victims Bill, I encourage him to continue his conversations via the consultation process with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Ministry of Justice. I am setting out the work that the Government are doing. If the hon. Member for Chesterfield will forgive me, I will come on to the response to the consultation, and work that is happening across Government.

Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I understand that the Minister is against the clock, but in relation to the question that the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) just asked, will the Minister undertake to write to the Deputy Prime Minister to make him aware of today’s debate, and the recommendations that have been outlined by various Members? Perhaps whether they are appropriate can then be considered.

Rachel Maclean Portrait Rachel Maclean
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is an excellent suggestion. If we have not already done so, I will ensure that that happens. In any case, the Ministry of Justice will look very closely at all the consultation responses received on this issue and many others.

I will briefly touch on what is happening in terms of the multi-agency public protection arrangements—MAPPA for short—because they are vital. They are specifically about how offenders are managed, which several Members have touched on. It is important that agencies make use of MAPPA to strengthen the effective management of serial and high-harm perpetrators of stalking and domestic abuse, and the national MAPPA team works closely with local strategic management boards to support implementation at a local level. This is about having the most appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that we keep people safe from harm.

We are also shortly due to publish a domestic abuse strategy that will seek to transform our response to domestic abuse in order to prevent offending—of course, stalking is a key part of the domestic abuse pattern of offending—support victims and pursue perpetrators. That will include a specific section on the risks associated with stalking. Some very good points have been raised about the pattern of offences and the escalation process. A couple of Members touched on education and what we are doing in schools, and we are already working with colleagues in the Department for Education.

I also want to let Members know that we will release a national education campaign about violence against women and girls. This will be quite a groundbreaking piece of work. We are talking about changing that misogynistic culture that everyone has spoken about, and making it absolutely clear that we probably all know a perpetrator—not necessarily a murderer, but someone who is not behaving in a respectful way to their female friends, associates, colleagues or partners. This communications campaign is specifically designed to make crystal clear what is and is not acceptable in the public and domestic sphere. I am really looking forward to the campaign and will pay close attention to it, as I am sure will all hon. Members here, and I encourage them to amplify it through their own communication channels, to get out the message out that this Government do not put up with those kinds of behaviours, whether they are on the street or whether they are serious crimes such as stalking, harassment and murder.

I once again thank the hon. Member for Gower for introducing the debate in order to raise this important issue. I will of course follow up on the points Members pressed me on. I could say a lot more, but unfortunately time is short, and I want to allow the hon. Lady the opportunity to respond to the debate.

Mark Hendrick Portrait Sir Mark Hendrick (in the Chair)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I call Tonia Antoniazzi, who is a member of the Petitions Committee, not the Chair.

00:02
Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi
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I thank the Chair for his correction; I had been elevated quickly.

Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Deservedly.

Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman.

I thank the Minister for her response, and all Members who have spoken. It was disappointing, as we have all said, that other Members were not able to join us in for what has been an important debate. I thank the petition maker, Jackie, Gracie’s family—it has been an absolute pleasure to meet you today—and everybody who signed the petition. The Minister spoke about the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) spoke about charities such as Paladin that have given a lot of support. The Minister cannot respond now, but I really hope she will hold police forces’ feet to the fire, because we need to know that what she outlined as having been done since 2017 is being done. It cannot be, otherwise we would not be where we are today. It is integral that her role incorporates holding them to account and making them act on what they should act on.

In 1986, Suzy Lamplugh went missing. I was 15 years old at the time, and it really sticks in the memory, as a teenager, knowing that women are going missing. It is great to hear about the conference, and about National Stalking Awareness Week, from 25 to 29 April, but we have to do so much more.

The petition is so important, and speaking today has been an absolute honour. I also hope that Gracie’s sister, Abi, who I met today, will follow her dream, go on to study politics and join myself and other female Members in this place to fight for the memory of her sister, Gracie. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) said, stalking is an identifiable precursor to murder. Minister, we cannot allow this not to be changed; we have to change it. She made the comparison to terrorism. We know where our terrorists are. We tag them. We look for them. We need to do the same as for terrorism.

I will end on this note—it is a nice note. The strength of the feeling of the family and the petitioners must be noted. Having two brothers myself, I was so pleased to hear Abi tell me earlier that her brothers are great, and what a great strength they are, because they look after her. Families are wonderful things, and theirs has been through hell. So many families have been through hell that it is our responsibility in the House to ensure that we do our best so that this is never repeated. I thank the Minister and everyone who has spoken, and I thank you, Chair.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petition 593769, relating to funding for stalking advocates.

00:05
Sitting suspended.

Future of the NHS

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Westminster Hall
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[James Gray in the Chair]
00:05
Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 598732, relating to the future of the NHS.

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Today I have the privilege of bringing the petition to the House for debate. I congratulate Marcus Hynes, the writer of the petition and a proud Unite member, on achieving over 135,00 signatures. Marcus and other esteemed members of Unite shared their views ahead of the debate.

The NHS is a truly British innovation. It is there to help us in our hour of need, supporting us from cradle to grave. The NHS has an enormous role in the lives, health and welfare of British people. As a result, it is rightly at the centre of much debate in this place, as we constantly look at how it can be expanded, improved and made more efficient. I thank the NHS and all its amazing doctors, nurses, staff and volunteers for what they do. Throughout the past two years, they have been the crutch that has kept this country upright. No words will ever be able to articulate how thankful people across the UK are for the work that they do for us every day.

The NHS is a great British institution, founded in the wake of the war by a society that wanted better for everyone. It is, and always shall be, free at the point of use. The NHS carries the weight of our country’s health problems on its shoulders, which is why I am delighted to support the Government’s ongoing commitment to it.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Member referred to the NHS being free at the point of delivery, but NHS dentistry is on its knees. In my constituency, Rachel Elizabeth has been waiting over two years to see a dentist. It is the same in Runcorn, Frodsham and so forth. There is a similar situation in the neighbouring constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson), in Ellesmere Port and right across the country. Does the hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) agree that NHS dentistry is in crisis?

Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have shared concerns about NHS dentistry from my own part of the world, and I am fairly confident that the Minister will fill us in and give a more extensive response.

The NHS carries the weight of our country’s health problems on its shoulders, which is why I am delighted to support the Government’s ongoing commitment to it. The biggest cash boost in the history of the NHS is allowing us to put thousands more doctors and nurses into our hospitals, coupled with major capital investment programmes that have already benefited my local hospitals. I know that the Minister is only too aware of my ongoing campaign to secure more sizeable improvements at the University Hospital of North Tees. That said, I know from my constituency that there remain huge challenges for the NHS and its role in improving the health of the nation.

In 2018, Stockton was labelled England’s “most unequal town” by the BBC. It is a town where people born in one area can be expected to live 18 years fewer than those living just a few miles up the road. Such health inequalities are not acceptable in modern Britain. The NHS rightly looks to prevention as well as cures, and furthering this cause requires not just more resources and improved efficiency, but joined-up co-operation with other agencies, which lies at the heart of the reform agenda.

Putting my experiences and observations aside, the lead petitioner, Mr Hynes, and those from Unite wanted to let me know that they are fundamentally opposed to the Health and Care Bill. As part of their reasoning, petitioners cited concerns about the staffing crisis, overwhelmed human resource departments and the backlog as core reasons for their belief that the Bill should not be brought on to our statute book. Petitioners shared their concerns about staff shortages and worker fatigue in an NHS that already stretches itself to meet the needs of the UK’s ageing population and the exponential growth in the public’s health needs. They talked of how the pandemic has compounded this problem.

Moreover, the pandemic paused elective surgery, leaving the NHS to deal with backlogs and extended waiting lists. The view of the petitioners was that the NHS should be given time to stabilise and respond to those challenges before taking on the challenges of reform. On a more institutional level, Unite said that it fears that this Bill would open the NHS up to deregulation, worsening staff shortages, and create a pay-for-use system akin to America’s.

The petition states that

“The Government has no democratic mandate to privatise the NHS”.

I agree: the Government have no democratic mandate to privatise the NHS, which is why they are doing no such thing. Access to NHS services will continue to be based on clinical need, not an individual’s ability to pay.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having secured this debate. I put to him—this is perhaps a challenge to the Minister and the Government—that we need to be careful with the NHS as it is today. We all love the NHS—we love the workers and we love what it does—but if we are not careful, it could come to a point where if a person does not have the money, they cannot pay for their care. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if that were to happen, the whole principle of the NHS would be knocked on the head?

Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This is a debate that we have in every election campaign, and other than the issues around dentistry, which I am sure we will come to, the NHS remains free at the point of use. I will fight the corner to keep it that way, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will do so as well.

Graham Stringer Portrait Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think everybody in this room would agree with the principle that the NHS was founded on—care that is free at the point of use—but the NHS has had many structural forms since its inception immediately after the second world war. My concern is that its current form and the proposals that the Government are bringing forward further centralise the NHS, and waste further money on bureaucracy, mimicking the private sector and creating an artificial market. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a waste of money, and that the NHS should be decentralised in order to provide better services to local communities?

Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sure we are going to hear about the ways in which these structural reforms will take place with that very aim in mind. I am going to try to get through my speech, because I am sure that Members would prefer for everybody to get in and to hear from the Minister, who is wiser on this issue than I am.

In my view, the Health and Care Bill does not represent an attempt to create a “pay for play” system—quite the opposite. While I am sure the Minister will go into detail about this point in his response, my understanding is that the Bill is largely the work of the NHS itself, inspired by NHS England’s own desire to restructure its organisational system to be more efficient and effective. It builds on the NHS’s own long-term plan, as set out in 2019, and the NHS people plan, which was published in 2020. Many of my conversations with leaders from my local NHS trust suggest that the answers to improving health outcomes require multi-agency working and empowerment of local health agencies, and my understanding is that the reforms and structural changes in the Bill set out to do exactly that.

One point on which I strongly agree with the petitioners is the need to drive value for money within our NHS, reducing management costs and excessive use of consultants, so that the huge increases in funding for the NHS can actually reach the frontline, not just fund more fruitless layers of bureaucracy. I am hopeful that the Minister will update us on what is being done to drive efficiency in that regard. Another point that I fundamentally agree with is the petitioners’ view that private finance initiative contracts have no place in our NHS. I know all too well the debilitating effect they have on the ability of the NHS to administer care across our country. Nationally, PFI contracts cost our NHS £1 billion a year and restrict numerous hospitals across the breadth of Great Britain.

I have seen at first hand how PFIs have damaged our local services in the Tees Valley. South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, in particular, has been plagued by a dodgy new Labour PFI contract. The James Cook University Hospital was completed in 2003, but its PFI contract does not run out until 2034, and will cost over £1.5 billion. The trust currently has to meet annual payments of £57 million a year—more than £1 million every week. Of course, hospital upgrades and rebuilds are expensive, but that trust is paying £17.5 million over and above what an equivalent Treasury-funded hospital would cost annually. Shockingly, that is enough to pay for more than 530 nurses. It is ludicrous.

Even if there were not an extra 530 nurses at South Tees, there is so much the hospital could do with this money, such as investing in its building, equipment and staff to help improve health outcomes and inequalities. Excessive costs from historic PFI contracts are listed as the largest single contributory factor to the hospital’s troublesome financial position. At time when retention is a huge issue for our NHS, this money would be crucial to making a substantial difference to the working lives of our NHS heroes. I am glad that in 2018 a Conservative Government decided that PFI contracts would be phased out. However, hospitals up and down the country are now stuck dealing with a Labour legacy that has damaged our NHS, our people and our ability to tackle health inequalities across this country.

Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the hon. Member give way?

Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will carry on; I am sure that there will be a chance for the hon. Member to contribute. I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate and to listening to the input of Members from across the House.

James Gray Portrait James Gray (in the Chair)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Members will see from a glance around the room how many people intend to speak. I do not intend to impose a formal limit, which seems to sacrifice quality in favour of quantity, but I do suggest that, as a courtesy to one another, speeches are limited to around three minutes.

18:11
Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.

There are actually a couple of aspects of the speech of the hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) that I agree with and congratulate him on. First, I do not support PFI either. History suggests that although that hospital was completed and perhaps started under a Labour Government, PFI was originally a Conservative initiative under the Major Government, so I would not be too confident about attacking it but I am pleased that it is gone.

I also profoundly agree with the hon. Member’s support for NHS staff; I think we will be hearing a lot of that this evening. The NHS is recognised and envied around the world. It is something that we should celebrate and admire, not chop up, neglect and sell off piecemeal at every opportunity. It is the NHS and its staff that are getting us through this pandemic. I would like to take this opportunity, as I am sure all hon. Members would, to once again thank the NHS and care staff who have worked so hard and sacrificed so much over the last two years.

The NHS cannot continue to look after us if we do not look after it. Tory mismanagement over the last decade and the pressures of the pandemic mean that the NHS is running on empty and surviving solely on the good will of its employees. Even before the pandemic, we were seeing record waiting lists and staffing shortages. Now the numbers are through the roof.

Ian Lavery Portrait Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On that point, my hon. Friend mentions that the NHS is running on empty—of course it is. A Unite survey published in January 2022 showed that 77% of the NHS workforce believe that they are worse off than they were a year before, 55% are working during their lunch breaks, and more than 50% are working in excess of their contracted hours. Is it any wonder that the NHS is running on empty?

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I could not have put it better myself. The NHS is running on empty, but also on the good will of the staff because they believe in the NHS and in what they are doing. There were 6 million people on the waiting list in England in November—the highest number ever recorded. In my constituency of City of Chester, the latest figures show that 36,000 people are waiting for care at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

Those record waiting lists are also true for NHS dentistry, as my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury), has pointed out. Some people are being told that they may have to wait up to two years for a NHS dental appointment. Over the past few months, many of my constituents have told me the difficulties that they have had in finding and accessing an NHS dentist in my constituency and the surrounding areas. On average, there are only 4.4 dentists per 10,000 people in England, and the number is shrinking. With shortages of staff, a lack of funding, the pressures of the pandemic and dissatisfaction with NHS dentists’ contracts, the waiting lists are growing. Many dental practices are feeling pressure to turn private just to be able to cover wages and equipment costs, and to survive as a business.

Dr Simon Gallier, who owns a dental practice in my constituency, wrote to me with a heavy heart to say that earlier this month, he had to make the difficult decision to make his dental practice private; he had to inform over 7,500 patients that they will no longer be receiving NHS treatment. Practices around the country are doing this not through choice, but out of necessity and lack of funding. Dr Gallier just cannot make ends meet. Indeed, in the last year for which figures were available, 2018-19, the amount spent on dentistry fell in real terms, compared with the six years previously. While the £50 million announced recently by the Minster is welcome, only £7 million of that will go to dentistry in the north-west, which is clearly insufficient when the national budget for England was over £2 billion in 2019. With fewer NHS dental practices, many constituents have no choice but to go private—an option many will not be able to afford, especially given the cost-of-living crisis we face. I worry that the Tory masterplan all along has been to starve the NHS of funding, resulting in inevitable back-door privatisation—or perhaps there has been a more sinister scheme to monetise dentistry, as there has been in similar services, including some GP practices and many vets practices.

Dentists cannot afford to operate under the NHS, so they sell the practice to an umbrella company, which is the front for a finance company. That company then offers quasi-insurance or membership programmes, in which the patients pay an amount every month that entitles them to an annual check. That stream of money from numerous practices becomes a valuable commodity in the City of London, which the Conservative party exists to serve, along with Putin-linked Russian oligarchs, but we will not mention that now.

Talking of privatisation, what I fear is not the sale, lock, stock and barrel, in a public floatation, as happened in the 1980s, but sale bit by bit, behind the scenes, to private companies that extract money for their profit—money that should surely instead be spent on patient care. NHS dentistry is in crisis. I will not look that £50 million gift horse in the mouth, but let us be clear: much more is needed.

18:16
Catherine West Portrait Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am proud that so many of my constituents in Hornsey and Wood Green signed this important petition about funding for the national health service, and about keeping it in the public sector.

There is no doubt that the national health service is the most popular public service in my constituency, but there is a basic lack of staff, whether we are talking about primary care, GPs and other practice staff—they always seem to be looking for more staff—the 40,000 nurses of whom we are in desperate need nationally, or the thousands more doctors who are needed. Compared to other European countries, we simply do not have the correct ratio of patients to doctors. For example, in psychiatry there are increasing numbers of patients, particularly following the stresses and strains of coronavirus, waiting days and days in a hospital bed to see a consultant. I heard a story this week about a patient who waited 10 days to be seen during doctors’ rounds. That is a very long time to use a bed without getting the correct medical attention.

Many Members have mentioned the insufficient funding for dentistry. Sadly, my constituency of Hornsey and Wood Green, and the London Borough of Haringey, has some of the worst rates of caries in children’s teeth in Europe.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) said, 77% of NHS staff believe that they are worse off this year than last year. We know that they are working in excess of their hours, and that since 2010, hourly pay has been frozen or increased by a tiny increment. That does nothing to help staff cope with the challenges of the Tory-driven cost-of-living crisis, be it domestic fuel bills, the cost of food, children’s clothing, basic travel to work, or petrol to drive to work.

The Health and Social Care Levy Act 2021 has recently passed through Parliament. Social care is crucial to fix bottlenecks in the health service. We need a properly funded care system in which the hourly rate is correct in the light of the needs of the people working in it, and we need better overall management to get people into the right sort of care as quickly as possible, so that we can free up the national health service to look after people coming into hospitals through accident and emergency. That is a basic point that every Member in Westminster Hall has made on a number of occasions, but it still seems as if this Government are sitting on their hands and failing to address the crucial question of how we get the flow through the system. The problem also comes down to the terrible cuts to local government. If local government was adequately funded, we would have a much better, more proportionate system. I will stop there, Mr Gray, as other Members wish to contribute.

18:19
Imran Hussain Portrait Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is, of course, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Time does not permit me to repeat the excellent points made by my hon. Friends the Members for City of Chester (Christian Matheson), and for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West), but I certainly align myself with what they said.

I want to concentrate on two areas of huge concern to my constituents. The first, which has already been mentioned, is privatisation. Three years ago, in Bradford, I fought alongside trade unions and NHS staff to stop plans to introduce dangerous back-door privatisation into our local hospitals. Although we beat those plans to move key services out of the NHS and place them in the hands of private companies, the danger of the privatisation of our NHS in Bradford has not passed.

That threat has only grown as a result of this Government’s Health and Care Bill. While removing enforced competition, the Bill does nothing whatever to roll back the wave of privatisation that successive Tory Health Ministers have unleashed on our NHS over the last decade. Rather than improving patient care, the Bill allows private companies with a vested stake in driving greater privatisation in the NHS to sit on local health boards and make decisions about our health care; at the forefront of their mind are not patients, but profits. There is no greater threat to the future of our NHS—free at the point of use and in public hands—than the Health and Care Bill and this Tory Government. We must stop both before it is too late.

We also have to look at the future of our NHS for GPs, who are at the coalface of health care but are all too often overlooked. Each week, without fail, a worrying number of constituents tell me that they have been unable to get any form of appointment, let alone a face-to-face appointment with a GP; that they have been left on hold when calling, waiting for phones that are never answered; or that, when they are given an appointment, it is weeks away, even when it is an urgent issue that simply cannot wait.

I dealt with two such cases this week. I heard from a son whose 82-year-old mother went to accident and emergency, but was sent away and told to go see her GP the next morning. Her son began ringing the GP practice first thing next morning, but when he eventually got through, hours later, he was given an appointment in two weeks’ time. In the other case, involving very similar circumstances, my constituent was once again told to wait for weeks. It is unacceptable.

That level of service would be unacceptable anywhere. However, in Bradford—where we have higher rates of deprivation, where life expectancy is below the national average and where we have greater rates of preventable illnesses—it is beyond serious, and can even be fatal. No one should have to wait for more than a fortnight for an appointment, and certainly not for urgent cases, but as the inner city of Bradford has one of the worst GP-to-patient ratios in the country, that comes as little surprise.

Although fewer GPs being forced to see more patients explains the scarcity of appointments, it does not explain the poor service that patients in Bradford are reporting to me. I want to use this debate to put on notice those practices that are letting their patients down. I want to be clear: there should be a better service to ensure that urgent cases receive urgent appointments, and to help close the health inequality gap between the richest and the poorest in Bradford.

Finally, I listened to the hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers), who opened this debate. His speech implied that he was anti-privatisation. I say this to him and all those on the Government Benches: the reality is, over the last decade, we have seen an ideological, intentional attack on our NHS. Let us not beat around the bush: if the hon. Member for Stockton South and others wish to stop the back-door privatisation of our NHS, they should be opposing the Health and Care Bill. Any form of privatisation needs to be taken out of the Bill. We do not need the smoke and mirrors that we see in the current legislation.

18:25
Rebecca Long Bailey Portrait Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I speak in full support of the petition. I would like to make particular mention of the recent Health and Care Bill. The clearest example of what could happen to our NHS if this Bill goes ahead lies in NHS dentistry. Net Government spend on general dental practice in England has been cut by about one third in the last decade. The results of this are stark; there are reports of people resorting to pulling out their own teeth because they cannot afford private treatment.

The British Dental Association states worryingly that the Bill worsens the situation and

“does not ensure that the voice of three quarters of NHS primary care professionals is heard in the making of commissioning decisions”.

Whose voices will be heard, then? The Bill would put private companies right at the heart of NHS decision making and service delivery—on the new integrated care system boards, where they will be given power to make decisions about people’s care and how NHS money is spent. The Bill will allow private healthcare providers to award contracts for clinical care without considering any other bids. The doctor-led campaign organisation EveryDoctor states:

“This Bill will embed private companies in the NHS in England, and give them the power to decide who gets what treatment when.”

Members on the Government Benches might wax lyrical about the NHS being free at the point of use, but what happens when people cannot access the care that they need? It might be because of rationing, or because of lengthy waiting lists due to lack of funds. It might simply be because those with a seat at the integrated care system board table determine that a person’s care should not be available on the NHS, because it is just not profitable enough. The result is this: if a person cannot afford private medical cover, they do not receive treatment. That is already happening in NHS dentistry, where it has been normalised. The risk is that it will be normalised throughout the healthcare system.

This is not a Bill to tackle the crisis facing the NHS. It is not a Bill to tackle the care backlog, or to properly fund our NHS. It is a Bill to reduce our rights to access healthcare and to privatise our NHS. It must be scrapped.

18:27
Barry Gardiner Portrait Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
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I begin by praising all the staff in the NHS, who, often at enormous personal risk, have provided dedicated care to so many of us over the past two years. The Minister must know—and the Government should acknowledge—that they are exhausted. As a country, we must show that we care for all of them as they address the backlog of over 5 million people waiting for treatment.

That care must be more than warm words and clapping. It must be tangible and financial, and it must be realistic. That means expanding workforce capacity, both as regards beds and staffing, in order to reduce the pressures our NHS heroes are facing. It means meeting the capital maintenance backlog of more than £9 billion. It was dereliction by the Chancellor to entirely omit any funding for infrastructure and building repairs when announcing the NHS settlement. There are two futures for the NHS: the disastrous one contained in the Health and Care Bill, or one that integrates health and social care in an efficient, comprehensive service that is free to everyone, from cradle to grave, whatever their medical need. It would be delivered entirely by, and be accountable to, our public sector—staff who are fairly treated and properly rewarded. I want to pay tribute to all the unions, particularly my own, Unite the union, for the work they have done to ensure that that is the case for staff.

By “comprehensive”, I mean that the service should include mental health and public health. If the pandemic has taught us anything, it should be the importance of public health, yet the integrated care boards have no delegated places for directors of public health, mental health or adult social services. There is not even a place for the voice of the patient, around whom everything should be centred.

By “efficient”, I mean that the service must deal with the backlog of 5.3 million patients waiting for treatment. By “whatever their medical need”, I mean that it should definitely include dentistry, as we have heard from my hon. Friends. By “accountable public service”, I mean that there should be no conflict of interest that allows a private company to sit on the ICB and commission contracts from which it will then be able to benefit. In 2012, I railed against the imposition of section 75 because it put competition, rather than co-operation, at the heart of our health system. I thought—correctly, as it turned out—that this would give rise to increasing privatisation, the rationing of care and the lessening of patients’ access to the care they need. Putting competitive tendering at the heart of the service destroyed trust and introduced a profit motive, rather than allowing a focus on successful medical care outputs.

It may be wondered why the reversing of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, introduced by Andrew Lansley, would be of concern to me. In 2012, none of us could have conceived of the fact that doing away with competitive tendering might mean not less, but more privatisation, unregulated by the tendering process. In 2012, we would not have believed that we would see VIP commissioning routes, through which contracts for medical equipment worth billions—not millions—of pounds would be given out to friends of Ministers, but that is what we face in the Bill. It puts that ability into legislation, which is why the Bill should be stopped.

18:32
Beth Winter Portrait Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
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The impact of the Health and Care Bill on Wales is limited, but I have come to speak in the debate because over 150 of my constituents signed the petition, and because it is right for people from across the UK to defend the NHS as a service that is run publicly, in the way that the great Welsh hero Nye Bevan intended. I have real concerns about the situation faced by the health service and the care sector, both in England and in Wales.

The King’s Fund has estimated that NHS commissioners spend £9.7 billion on services delivered by the private sector, which represents around 7% of NHS revenue spending. While we are handing over NHS provision to the private sector, waiting lists are going up, waits for treatments are getting longer, NHS pay is going down, staff sickness is going up and staff vacancies are going up. The Health and Care Bill does nothing to address that—indeed, it will make things worse. Many of my colleagues have already set out concerns, particularly about the new integrated care boards and the private sector’s increasing role on them. The Bill will also reduce oversight of how contracts are awarded, and move the NHS from being a regulated market to a less regulated one.

The Bill will do nothing to improve social care. It has been two years since the Prime Minister stood on the steps of Downing Street and promised a plan for social care. When will we see that plan? Unison has found that more than two thirds of care staff said they were so busy at night that they managed to get only a couple of hours’ sleep, and staff are sleeping on makeshift beds in offices. A quarter of the workforce are on zero-hours contracts, and only about 10% are getting the real living wage. Why is this Tory Government continuing to fail our social care sector, its recipients and its workforce? In 2019, I stood on a manifesto that pledged to establish a national care service. That would have been a historic development along the lines of the establishment of the NHS in 1948, but regrettably, we are not in a position to implement it.

I want to make a few comments about the position in Wales. I suggest that people look at the Welsh Government, because in spite of Tory austerity Governments and years of underfunding, we have successfully managed to retain a largely public sector NHS. We have free prescriptions, and we are now proposing significant extra funding for local authorities to help with maintaining and developing the social care sector. Last year’s co-operation agreement and the programme for government in the Welsh Senedd committed to the implementation of the real living wage and to establishing a Welsh national care service, which will be implemented by the end of 2023. Before Christmas, the Welsh Social Services Minister, Julie Morgan, pledged that the Welsh Government would provide Welsh local authorities and health boards with £43 million so that they can implement the real living wage—not the living wage that the Tories are proposing—from April.

I reiterate my support for those campaigning to defend a publicly owned and run NHS and to deliver a similarly public national care service. We are trying to do it, and we will achieve it in Wales, despite the barriers put up against us by the Tory Government. I really hope that we will have a Labour-led Government in Westminster soon to do the same. Diolch yn fawr.

18:36
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I concur with the comments of others. Like the hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers), I acknowledge the incredible work of all healthcare workers across all spheres of the health system over the past two years, through the pandemic. The commitment and dedication that they have all demonstrated throughout the public health crisis is of course not unique to the pandemic but is a defining characteristic of all the staff our wonderful national health service produces. Each one of us present is here to say thank you to them from the bottom of our heart.

I commend the NHS staff who have been working hard day in and day out to ensure that their patients are looked after in the same caring way as they are in normal times. It is important that we acknowledge the sacrifices made by the families of nurses and doctors who have been called in at short notice when wards and A&Es have been short-staffed. Many of my constituents do that every day, and have done it almost every day through the crisis. Many do so having only just left a long overnight shift, and many saw very little of their families during those times. We tend to take it for granted that our NHS staff will go above and beyond to serve the public, which should make us even more proud of them. There is an onus on us in this House, and on the Minister and the Government, to ensure that we deliver for our staff for all that they have done.

The NHS is very different in the scope of the services that it delivers from how it was at its inception on 5 July 1948. I am certain that if Florence Nightingale walked its corridors today she would be more than impressed by how far the delivery of medical services has advanced, but she would also see the familiar aspects of local doctors delivering a first-rate service in community hospitals. The building blocks remain unchanged, and as our NHS looks to the future it is vital that the foundations never change. The NHS is central to our society. We do not want it to be Americanised. We all know what that means: that we would have to pay for it, which would be wrong. We have a duty to deliver for the people we represent, without having to gauge whether their wage packet can pay for treatment, or whether their wallet is big enough.

The future of our NHS will be supported by revolutionary technology, just as revolutionary as the first penicillins when they worked what seemed to be miracles. We do not have a crystal ball, but we can be certain that increased funding will be necessary to support the radical adoption of innovative technology, to improve resources and, without question, as the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Beth Winter) said, to pay our NHS workers a wage that reflects the work that they do, have done, and will do in future.

I will conclude, as I am conscious of the three-minute limit, Mr Gray. Today, GPs and hospitals are under severe pressure, which I believe will not ease for the next generation of GPs and NHS workers. In order to ensure that the original building blocks of the NHS that we cherish remain in place, we need, as policy makers, to build firm bridges between now and then. Most importantly, the NHS of the future must have the same ethos of care and compassion at its core in 2050, when we may not be here, as it did at the beginning in 1948, when I was not here either.

18:39
Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. It is a truly extraordinary achievement that we have the national health service. We are so indebted to Nye Bevan and all those people who have fought for it. I pay tribute to everyone who signed the petition, which refers to the Health and Care Bill

“locking in privatisation and dividing the English NHS into Integrated Care Systems.”

If the Bill is enacted, we can expect to see the NHS split up into 42 locally managed health systems, which will be required to balance the books each year, rather than a national health service responding to patient need. Following intense pressure from the Labour party, campaign groups and other stakeholders, the Government have conceded that anyone who

“could reasonably be regarded as undermining the independence of the NHS because of their involvement in the private healthcare sector”

will not be able to sit on integrated care boards. Such individuals will still be able to have significant influence through a complex array of sub-committees, however, including place-based partnerships and provider collaboratives. It is there in black and white in NHS guidance:

“The Health and Care Bill, if enacted, will enable ICBs to delegate functions to providers including, for example, devolving budgets to provider collaboratives.”

That exposes the Government’s real intentions of increasing the involvement of private companies in the running of the NHS.

The Bill also includes measures to revoke the national tariff and replace it with an NHS payments scheme. As private providers would be consulted on the NHS payment scheme, it would effectively give the them the opportunity to undercut NHS providers. I am concerned that as a result, we will see more and more healthcare delivered by the private sector rather than by the NHS, with money going into shareholders’ pockets rather than being spent on patient care. If that happens, NHS staff could be forced out of jobs that are currently on the agenda for changed rates of pay and the NHS payments scheme, with only private sector jobs available—potentially with far worse pay and conditions.

I am also concerned that the Bill will lead to an increased rationing of services because ICBs would have strict financial limits each year. Once that money has been spent, patients would have to wait longer or go without treatment. Some may be tempted by the adverts for private healthcare, of which we are seeing more and more, but it is worth looking at where that path leads. According to Will Russell, a provider of international health, life and income-protection insurance, the average annual cost of health insurance in the US is an eye-watering $7,470 for an individual and $21,342 for a family. Employers typically fund roughly three quarters of those bills, so they also create a massive burden on businesses. The average cost for an individual of purchasing their own health insurance is $456 per month, according to a 2020 survey by eHealth.

In this country, we can only imagine just how devastating such costs would be to individuals, businesses and the economy. We cannot afford to let such a system take hold here. We must defend the NHS as a universal comprehensive national service that is there to treat us when we need it. Time is running out. I urge MPs across the House to appreciate just how fortunate we are to have the national health service, to join the campaign against NHS privatisation, and to oppose the Health and Care Bill.

18:42
Mick Whitley Portrait Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
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It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and to follow the powerful contributions of my hon. Friends. I draw hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests for my ongoing links with Unite the Union, which has played such a central role in the fight against privatisation of our health service.

I am enormously grateful to the hundreds of people in my constituency who put their names to the petition, and to the countless others who got in touch to ask me to speak in this incredibly important debate. They know what the Government so clearly do not know: the reforms are totally wrong and come at the worst time. Our NHS is in the midst of the darkest day of its long history. Exactly two years since the first covid patient was admitted to a UK hospital, morale is collapsing, staff are past the point of exhaustion, and many frontline services are at breaking point. For all the Government’s talk of life after covid, the virus continues to stalk hospital wards across the country—85 patients have died of covid in the last day alone.

Instead of doing anything in their power to tackle a catastrophic staffing shortage and a record-breaking backlog, Ministers instead seem intent on forging ahead with reforms that threaten to open the doors of our precious health service to ravenous multinationals that are interested only in making a quick buck, not in addressing the country’s health needs.

We should not be surprised that the Government have so cynically sought to exploit the crisis to advance an agenda of privatisation and fragmentation. After all, that is the logical next step of a project that has been consistently pushed forward by successive Prime Ministers and Health Secretaries since 2010. When the last Labour Government left office, they entrusted to the Conservatives the care of a health service that was world-beating by every conceivable metric. Despite the best efforts made by our healthcare heroes, the NHS entered the pandemic woefully unprepared and under-resourced, having had its resources and resilience sapped away since the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.

I fear that the Government’s latest reforms, which include the introduction of integrated care systems and American-style healthcare management systems, will leave our NHS in a far worse state for confronting the public health challenges of the coming decades. I urge the Minister not only to listen to what has been said today, but to take heed of the public anger surrounding this issue. The British people are not in the least convinced by the claims that the Government have the NHS’s best interests at heart, and they look anxiously towards America as a sign of what might yet come to pass. They want an NHS that lives up to its founding principles—a public service that is free and accessible to all—which is why Ministers must return to the drawing board.

18:45
Richard Burgon Portrait Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
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It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Gray, and it is wonderful to hear all these passionate speeches today. We need to be clear that whether they admit it or not, the Conservatives have always had a problem with the national health service. They might try to rewrite the history books, but the truth is recorded: they voted against the creation of our national health service on more than 20 occasions, and the reason is purely ideological. They see it as an unwelcome intervention into the market, a point I will return to in a second.

Some of the more vocal supporters of that neoliberal agenda see the NHS as a last bastion of socialism in our society. I am proud that our national health service was created by socialists, and I think it is the greatest example in this country’s history of socialist principles put into practice. What does that mean? It means that there are some things in life more important than the pursuit of profit. However, what we now see—what we have seen since 2010—is an increased drive for the Americanisation of our national health service. The Conservatives want to turn it into a system where they feel for a patient’s wallet before they feel for their pulse. The truth is that however the history books are rewritten, it was a struggle to create the NHS in the first place, and it is now a great struggle to maintain it in accordance with its founding principles.

There are two key issues for our health service—deep underfunding and greater use of the private sector—and they go hand in hand, with the national health service being underfunded so that people can supposedly be persuaded to stomach greater and greater private sector involvement. First, the Conservatives defund things so that people get frustrated, and then they say that there is no choice but to hand them over to the private sector—that is the plan. We hear from the Conservatives that the staffing crisis in our national health service was caused by omicron or by covid, but the truth is that the huge vacancies and understaffing in the NHS did not start with omicron or with covid: the vacancies have been there for a long time, and now there are nearly 100,000 of them. An unbelievable £100 billion has gone to non-NHS providers of healthcare over the past decade alone. Every pound spent bolstering the private companies means less spent on people’s healthcare, as the profits are creamed off.

People out there are right to be worried about what the Conservatives want to do with the NHS. I mentioned earlier the Conservatives’ historical and ongoing objection to interventions in the market, but the truth is they believe in free markets for the 99%—with all the harm it brings them in their lives, their pay packets and their health service—but believe in intervention in the market for the benefit of those at the top. That is what we saw during the covid crisis, with all those corrupt contracts, the VIP fast-track lane, and billions of pounds going to Serco for the failed test and trace system. What the Tories did with the corrupt covid contracts, they want to do right across our national health service. That is why the Health and Care Bill would be better renamed the corporate takeover Bill. We cannot allow that to happen. The Conservatives want to create a race to the bottom, and we know that cuts and privatisation go hand in hand.

Before I finish, I will say a word about our NHS staff. We saw the Prime Minister—who no one trusts anymore, and quite rightly so—standing outside Downing Street clapping for the NHS heroes, but claps do not pay the bills. If we have a Government that values NHS staff in the way they say they do, they need to pay those staff properly. I put on the record my support for the 15% pay increase for NHS staff, who have suffered a decade of real-terms pay cuts. We need to be clear about what that means: that 15% increase would bring their pay back in line with where it was a decade ago.

What is the way forward? It is for us to realise that no Prime Minister or Government will say to the public, “Do you know what? We’re going to privatise the NHS. Do you know what? We’re going to turn it into an American-style healthcare system.” Of course they will not do that. They will manufacture consent for those changes through underfunding and through creeping privatisation carrying on at ever greater pace. It was a struggle to create our NHS, and it will be a struggle to save it from this final Americanisation. Regardless of which party we are in, history will judge us poorly if we betray those who went before us and created our national health service—the greatest achievement in our country’s history, and the greatest example of socialist principles put into practice, which may be why this Government dislike it so much.

18:51
Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. The future of the NHS hangs in the balance, and the petition is entirely correct in calling on the Government to renationalise the NHS, scrap integrated care systems and end private finance contracts.

The Health and Care Bill threatens to open the floodgates to further privatisation by implementing a healthcare model that incentivises cuts and closures and rations funding to health boards while welcoming private profit-driven companies such as Virgin and Serco on to the boards of integrated care systems, giving them a say on where NHS money gets spent. The new legislation will further dilute the voice of patients and the public, with the new boards covering populations of up to 3 million people that will be remote and centralised, with no obligation to be open, transparent or accountable to ordinary people.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West
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My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does she agree that if we have that lack of transparency we might see a repetition of the Government’s wasting £4 billion during covid? There is a fear about related-party transactions, where people know exactly where the money is going—into their pockets.

Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson
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I fully support what my hon. Friend says. The boards will be remote and centralised and will seriously restrict the power of local authorities to protect local services. With these changes, private healthcare giants will not only have a bigger say over the NHS but will be granted contracts with even less scrutiny than now.

By opening the door to private healthcare providers to take decisions on NHS budgets and services, the Bill makes it easier for public health contracts to be distributed to private providers, with less transparency and accountability. Safeguards in the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 will be excluded, watering down protections for employment and environmental provisions in procurement processes. There is no doubt that the Bill will put on steroids the cronyism we have seen during the pandemic while our NHS heroes have worked day and night, putting their lives on the line. The Government have cut real pay for nurses while handing out billions of pounds of contracts through an illegal VIP system to their mates and donors and to the failed track and trace system.

The NHS is the jewel in the crown of our public services—our proudest achievement. However, 12 years of Tory austerity, and now the pressures of the pandemic, have stripped it to the bone. An unbelievable £100 billion has gone to private healthcare providers in the last decade alone. The last thing the NHS needs right now is a dangerous overhaul that puts the private sector at its heart. We must take this and every opportunity to support amendments to the Bill that establish the NHS as the default option for all NHS contracts, to mitigate the worst parts of it. We must stand up to these new attacks or risk losing the NHS to privatisation by stealth. We must go further in our demands to roll back the damage done, reinstating the NHS as a truly national service and establishing a fully integrated national care service with staff and patients at its heart.

00:05
Ian Byrne Portrait Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. The privatisation of the NHS has been a lengthy and well-documented process that started during Thatcher’s Conservative Government in the 1980s. It has shifted the responsibility for the long-term care of the elderly and the vulnerable from the NHS to local authorities, and allowed hotel-type charges for long-term care. This violated a key NHS principle that patients should not pay health charges. Charges became means tested, and homes had to be sold to pay for the bills. Local authorities were forced to pass on their responsibility for healthcare to outsourced private companies. That created a for-profit industry worth £6 billion a year.

Ninety per cent. of nursing home beds are now operated on a for-profit basis. Almost 400,000 elderly patients are now a source of income in an increasingly privatised sector. The staff in those nursing homes are an increasingly casualised and deskilled workforce. The privatisation of care for the elderly created such a mess that we are still trying to sort it out 40 years later. That is the shameful legacy of privatisation in one sector of healthcare. We can see clearly that the process of privatising the NHS itself will follow the same pattern. It will be run by private contractors who will de-professionalise and casualise a temporary workforce.

There has been a creeping privatisation of the NHS. In 2012, an Act was passed that, among other things, required all NHS contracts to be tendered to any qualified provider. Now we have ambulance services run by taxi firms, private companies that have taken over GP practices covering half a million patients in London, and a private company taking over an NHS hospital and cancelling the contract when there was no more money to be made. I have seen first hand, working for Unite and organising outsourced workers in the health sector, the damage that privatisation does to our essential care services.

If that tale of incompetence was not enough, the Government are now pushing through a new reorganisation, this time to establish what they call “integrated care”. It does the complete opposite, instead butchering our NHS into 42 separate areas. It should not be called integrated care but “disintegrated care”. Each area has a fixed budget that cannot be overspent. This will create a postcode lottery and force each area not to co-operate with each other to save cash. Each area board will allow private healthcare companies—another play on words: they are mostly private health insurance companies—to make decisions about the provision of healthcare.

Here we go again: the Government’s answer to underfunding our NHS is to let private companies run it. History has taught us that this is not the solution. NHS staff employed by 42 different organisations face a most uncertain future of casualisation, deskilling and the introduction of poorer terms and conditions. The people of England face a regional, not a national, health system, which will have different terms and conditions for its workforce and different provision of treatment. It is chaotic and irresponsible.

Every Government of the day have been entrusted to preserve and protect one of the country’s greatest achievements—to cherish, not cherry-pick and hive off to the private sector. I urge the Minister to listen to the calls of my constituents, campaigners and the trade unions and scrap the catastrophic Health and Care Bill, which destabilises, fractures and imperils our NHS.

James Gray Portrait James Gray (in the Chair)
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I apologise to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough; I fear we have no time.

18:58
Steven Bonnar Portrait Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I thank all those who signed this petition. The position of the SNP on this matter is clear: the NHS was created to be free at the point of use and to treat all citizens equally from cradle to grave. That is the NHS we want to see back—an NHS for the people, by the people and firmly in the hands of the people. Despite the fact that the Government lack a democratic mandate to privatise the NHS, vast sums of public money are being wasted on business managers, private providers, PFI debts, multinational accounting firms, and corporate consultants. By enshrining privatisation in NHS England, the Tory Government continue to jeopardise access to care and universal standards.

Let us look at social care, for example. Scotland has successfully integrated health and social care services since 2014 and has put in record investment to allow continued quality improvements in services year on year, and that is without any privatisation. It has been achieved even with the culture of cuts to public services that has been forced on Scotland by Westminster’s austerity agendas. If Scotland can create a social care system that works with one hand tied behind our back, what is England’s excuse?

We have heard hon. Members refer to dental health and the lack of dental care in England. Of course, in Scotland we made provision for free NHS dental care for 18 to 25-year-olds in our last manifesto, and that is coming through the Scottish Parliament just now. That is on top of free annual and biennial eye tests for everybody, because those are the things that matter and they can have a better effect on the management of our NHS and address the clogging up of appointments.

For the UK Government, it seems that healthcare is a hassle; for the Scottish Government, it has been our priority. The covid crisis has demonstrated why the NHS is our most important public service, and Scotland has recognised that. We gave our NHS workers a bonus as we came out of the pandemic. The Scottish Government have also put record funding into our health and social care services of up to £18 billion, with resource funding up 90% under the Scottish Government. Frontline health spending is £111 higher per head in Scotland than it is in England. These figures speak for themselves.

The SNP Government in Holyrood have a history of making different parts of the health and social care system work together. They have used legislation to get these efforts under way. We also contributed to the betterment of the UK system by voting against the Health and Care Bill going through this House. That Bill gives the UK Health Secretary enormous powers over NHS England—over its structure, functions and budget—giving him more leeway during trade negotiations, with particular risks from American healthcare interests. Such ministerial control over NHS England is concerning, as there will be long-term consequences for the national health services in Scotland and the other devolved nations, particularly in terms of funding and what is included in any free trade agreements. The Bill eliminates the requirement for competitive bidding and allows NHS bodies to award some contracts directly. Can you imagine if the future care of your family and friends, your children and relatives, was all dependent on how much money was left in somebody’s locker, as opposed to whose expertise and resources were best to deliver it? The SNP has been clear that those in charge of services should have only the best interests of patients at heart, not the vested interests of private healthcare.

We appreciate our healthcare system and in particular its staff, who have been invaluable to every member of our society before and throughout the covid pandemic and will be after the pandemic has, thankfully, gone.

We heard what was said by Dr Pelle Gustafson, the chief medical officer of the Swedish patient insurer. When asked which country he would

“hold at the very top of the pillar”

with regard to patient safety, he replied:

“If you take all preventive work as regards patient safety, I would say that I am personally very impressed by Scotland. In Scotland, you have a long-standing tradition of working. You have development in the right direction. You have a system that is fairly equal all over the place and you also have improvement activities going on. I am very impressed by Scotland.”

If the Minister is listening to that, this is the NHS that the UK Government could and should be using as a basis to drive improvements for the health and social care sector across these nations, because if they do not, we are at a very real risk of doing citizens the greatest injustice that this country has ever seen.

19:03
Andrew Gwynne Portrait Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. This has been a spirited and emotional debate, and one that captures the unique place that the NHS holds in the heart of this nation. On behalf of the Labour Front Bench, I want to personally thank the petitioners and the campaigners behind the petition, because the NHS is more than just an institution. It is an example of the difference that politics, society and individuals can make. It gives us hope that Governments can make real differences to people’s lives, so long as there is the requisite willpower and determination to do so.

Over the last 12 years, NHS staff have had to move heaven and earth just to keep the service on its feet. They have faced extraordinary upheaval, underfunding, neglect and Government mismanagement. I would like to place on record my thanks to all NHS staff, at every level, for the work they have done—not just over the last 12 years and before, but particularly in the last two years, when we were hit by the covid pandemic and the NHS was placed under enormous strain. I am in awe of the work that the staff have done, but I am angry that they have had to step up to try to mitigate the failures of this Government.

Even before the pandemic, the scale of the crisis in the NHS was stark. Covid has compounded the problems, but it did not cause them. Any attempt by the Government to blame covid for the state of our national health service is nothing more than an abdication of responsibility.

This debate is about the future of the NHS, but to understand the future, we must understand how we got here in the first place and how the steps we must take are informed by principles that have been too easily forgotten by the Conservative Government. The NHS is Labour’s finest moment: emerging from the tragedy and upheaval of world war two, the British public decided to put their faith in a Labour Government. British people suffered from endemic health inequalities and squalid living conditions, and were bearing the brunt of decades of public health neglect.

The NHS, spearheaded by the great Aneurin Bevan and Clement Attlee, aimed to change all of that. Many said it could not be done, but it was. It was done through courage of conviction and a belief in the necessity of a service based on need rather than income—a simple principle with revolutionary consequences.

We now find ourselves in 2022, almost 74 years on. If the Labour pioneers who built our health service were here today, what would they see? They would see record waiting lists, an acute staffing crisis, morale at its lowest ebb, health inequalities growing, and a Government fundamentally incapable of addressing their own failings. Yet if they twisted the dials of their time machine to 2010, they would see an NHS in a pretty healthy condition. Waiting times had dropped, public satisfaction was at the highest level ever, and hospitals were staffed at record numbers. In 12 years, that progress has been systematically undone.

The first priority of the next Labour Government will therefore be to sort out the immediate mess that the Tories have left our health service in—once more. That means throwing everything at slashing waiting times and reducing the care backlog, and it means recruiting, training and retaining the staff we need across the NHS and social care. The last Labour Government brought average waiting times down from 18 months to 18 weeks. We will have to do the same again as a matter of urgency. That must all come alongside a long-term plan for the care workforce and wider reforms to fix social care.

However, the Government are doing none of that. Instead, they are faffing around with an unnecessary and distracting top-down reorganisation of the NHS, in the form of the Health and Care Bill, while doing precious little to tackle waiting lists or address the staffing crisis. I would be grateful if the Minister recognised those concerns in his response and outlined what steps the Government will take to ensure that any NHS reorganisation comes alongside a proper plan to address soaring waiting times and critical staffing shortages.

However, the future of the NHS is about more than just addressing the immediate crisis; it is also about adapting to the needs of our population and recognising that health is about more than just surgeries and hospitals. Last week, here in Westminster Hall, I spoke about health inequalities and about how health is all too often viewed as an isolated issue, without considering the external factors that influence our wellbeing. Wellbeing is linked to our communities, our access to green spaces, our mental health, our opportunities and much more. If we fail to consider those influencing factors, our health service will always be geared to address the symptom, as opposed to the root cause of the symptom.

That is why the future of our NHS relies on prioritising preventive health measures. One example of that is Labour’s recent announcement that we would recruit more than 8,500 mental health professionals to support 1 million more people every year. That is exactly the kind of progressive, proactive and preventive policy that the Government should be driving. Such an investment in mental health would mean that every community had access to a mental health hub for young people, and every school specialist support. Wellbeing would be addressed beyond the clinical setting, and the health consequences of stress, depression and anxiety addressed before they reached the hospital waiting room.

So far, I have seen little evidence from the Government that they realise the importance of preventive health measures. In fact, I would go as far to say that the withdrawal of funding from community centres, green spaces and sports clubs over the past 12 years shows that the Government are not sensible and are not serious about preventive health policy. In his response, perhaps the Minister will correct me on that and advise how the Government intend to reverse their disastrous cuts to local services, which have had a calamitous impact on health outcomes.

Our NHS was built to provide security. It was built to recognise that our prosperity is innately linked to our health, and that we all deserve to live long, fulfilling lives—all of us, irrespective of our background or where we have come from. It is an issue of basic respect. To be healthy and have access to care is not a privilege; it is a fundamental right of every human being, a right that we expect the Government to protect and defend at all costs. The job of the Government of the day is to pass the national health service on in a better condition than they found it in when they came to office. I am afraid to say that this Government have failed in that obligation massively.

I am hopeful, however, that with the right support, the right investment, the right approach and the right values—values matter when it comes to our health and wellbeing—Labour can undo years of neglect and equip the NHS with the tools it needs to survive and then to thrive. That day cannot come quickly enough.

James Gray Portrait James Gray (in the Chair)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have a few minutes in hand so, unusually—although I am told it is perfectly in order—I will call the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, Andy McDonald, to make a brief contribution.

19:13
Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mr Gray; I am grateful to you for accommodating me. I declare an interest as a private member of Unite the union.

The level of involvement of private interests that has built up in our NHS over decades is deeply troublesome. That concern has been expressed forcefully in the demands set out in the petition that we are debating. That petition has garnered more than 135,000 signatures.

In our manifesto at the last election, Labour stated:

“Our urgent priority is to end NHS privatisation”,

because

“Every penny spent on privatisation and outsourcing is a penny less spent on patient care.”

We committed to repealing the Health and Social Care Act 2012 and reinstating the responsibilities of the Secretary of State to provide a comprehensive and universal healthcare system. We also committed to ending the requirement on health authorities to put services out to competitive tender, to ensure that services are delivered in-house and that subsidiary companies are brought back in-house.

In the moments remaining to me, I will address the issue of the private finance initiative. The hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) set out a lot of the detail very accurately. He told us about a hospital in my constituency, the James Cook University Hospital, and I pay tribute to the work of all its team, ably led by Sue Page, the chief executive. That hospital has performed marvels during this period, and offered services to other hospitals across the entire north of England.

I am appealing to the Minister for some help for my hospital, because the burden of PFI has been absolutely colossal: the hospital has cost £1.5 billion to build and maintain since it opened in 2003. The amounts paid by the trust increase every year until the final payment in 2034. I do not want to get into debate about how rotten the PFI deal was, quite frankly. All PFI deals were rotten. They were started in 1992 under John Major’s Government—please, let us not have any of that nonsense. The PFI deal costs an absolute fortune: £20 million more than an equivalent hospital would have to pay for maintenance.

What was missing is what we are going to do about it. As an initial solution, we could look at the decisive action of the Department of Health in 2012 to make £1.5 billion available in grants—not loans—to seven hospitals in England with some of the heaviest PFI debts through a stability fund. The seven trusts were able to use that money, rather than their usual budgets, to meet their PFI payments. It has been done elsewhere. I appeal to the Minister to look very carefully at providing assistance to get this PFI albatross from around our neck and let my hospital thrive and continue to do the wonderful work it has done for many years.

19:15
Edward Argar Portrait The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) for leading this debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee. I am pleased we were able to find time to hear from the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald); I offered to take an intervention from him, which I suspect was a brave offer on my part given the intervention that might have come my way. I am pleased he got to give his speech.

I am grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). I think this is the first time we have properly been opposite one another since his appointment to this role on the Opposition Front Bench. Although I did not agree with everything he said, he made a typically well-informed and well-argued speech. He is right to pay tribute to all hon. Members who have spoken today, regardless of whether one agrees with the positions advanced. This has been a passionate debate. At its heart is, perhaps, the most precious of our country’s institutions; understandably, right hon. and hon. Members and our constituents have very strong views on the subject.

Before turning to the substance of the debate, and although I may not agree with their position, I pay tribute in a broader context to the work of Unite, Unison and other trade unions. I do not always agree with the stance they adopt, but they play a hugely important role in our democracy and society. It is right to put that on the record. As always in these debates, and as the shadow Minister has done very clearly, I also put on the record our gratitude—from both sides of the Chamber equally—to all NHS staff and those working in social care, local government and other key workers across the country for what they have done across the past two years and, indeed, what they do every year, day in, day out.

As I have said before, the Health and Care Bill reflects evolution, not revolution. It supports improvements already under way in the NHS and, crucially, builds on what the NHS recommended and consulted on back in 2019.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will make a little progress before giving way; I will always give way to the hon. Lady. The Bill is backed by not only the NHS but many others working across health and social care. In a joint statement, the NHS Confederation, NHS providers and the Local Government Association state that they

“believe that the direction of travel set by the bill is the right one”,

noting that local level partnership is the only way we can address the challenges of our time.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is talking about a consultation that, as I recall, took place over the Christmas period, when NHS staff are absolutely exhausted. He talks about these changes being requested by the NHS, but what percentage of NHS staff does he actually think took part in the consultation?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the hon. Lady will know, the former chief executive of the NHS, Lord Stephens, was clearing in saying that the

“overwhelming majority of these proposals are changes that the health service has asked for.”

We should do the right thing by them and by patients. It is the right time for the Bill: it is the right prescription at the right time.

The substance of the petition, which has framed many speeches by hon. Members today, calls for the Government to renationalise the NHS. I have to say that it has never been denationalised. The NHS is and always will be free at the point of use. The Government are committed to safeguarding the principles on which the NHS was created. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish set that out very clearly. We have no plans for privatisation.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will make a little progress; if I have time, I will give way to the hon. Lady, with whom I sat on a committee of London councils when we were looking at social care reform way back in 2010.

We all recognise the importance of preserving this great national asset for the future and ensuring that the NHS remains comprehensive and free at the point of use, regardless of income, on the basis of need. The Government remain steadfast in their commitment that the NHS is not, and never will be, for sale to the private sector.

We are determined to embrace innovation and potential where we find it, but that is different from many of the accusations in the speeches we have heard today. I know it is tempting to scaremonger and set out accusations about what this Act does, even when people know better, as I know hon. Members do, but that reflects scaremongering rather than reality. There has always been an element of private provision in healthcare services in this country. Labour Members should know that because, as the Nuffield Trust said in 2019,

“the available evidence suggests the increase”—

in private provision—

“originally began under Labour governments before 2010”.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will just finish this point and then give way to the hon. Lady. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne) made the point, which the hon. Member for Middlesbrough touched on as well, that it is important to look at the extent of the involvement of private sector providers, which accelerated when the Labour party was in power. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby talked about the 2012 legislation and “any qualified provider”, but that was not brought in by the 2012 legislation; it was brought in by the Gordon Brown Government in 2009-10, under the term “any willing provider.” The name was changed, but nothing substantive changed from what the Labour Government had introduced in terms of the ability to compete for contracts.

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

One more sentence and I will give way to the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West); then I will try to bring in the hon. Gentleman.

One of the key changes allowing private sector organisations to compete for and run frontline health services came in 2004, again under a Labour Government, when the tendering for provision of out-of-hours services by private companies was allowed.

Catherine West Portrait Catherine West
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is being very gracious. How is the Act going to ensure that there is no conflict of interest between private providers who sit on integrated care boards and who then provide services? Are we going to end up with another Randox scandal?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady will know that when it comes to integrated care boards we, as a Government, introduced an amendment building on the already clear provisions in the Bill to prohibit conflicts of interest. I do not know whether she voted for the Government amendment, but it did exactly that, making it clear when the Bill was on Report that private providers and those with significant private interests could not sit on NHS integrated care boards.

Christian Matheson Portrait Christian Matheson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is being generous with his time. Let us get the history right. The reason why the Labour Government increased the involvement of private sector bidders was simply to be able to increase capacity quickly—to get the waiting list and waiting time backlogs down, which they had inherited from the previous Conservative Government and that were massive. In terms of the 2009 Bill, I seem to remember that there was a provision in there that gave preference to NHS bidders.

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Although we occasionally cross swords in the main Chamber or here, he knows I have a great deal of respect for him. All I would say gently on the point about the 2004 changes is that they came seven years into a Labour Government, so I do not know the reason why they had not been able to make progress before then.

We continue to work closely with the NHS to implement the changes that it has asked for, so that we can build back better and secure our NHS for future generations. As the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish, rightly said, the covid-19 pandemic has tested our NHS like never before, and all our NHS staff have risen to meet these tests in extraordinary new ways.

Hon. Members on both sides have rightly raised the point about the pressure that NHS staff have been under. Those who have been under pressure dealing with this pandemic are the people who will also be working flat out to deal with waiting lists and backlogs. We need to ensure that we are honest with the British people and that those staff have the time and space to recover, emotionally and physically, from the pressures they have been under. That is hugely important and we acknowledge the workforce.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not give way to the hon. Lady now. I have given way to her before. I will try to make progress, but if there is time I will try to give way to her.

We have seen innovative new ways of working: new teams forged, new technologies adopted and new approaches found to some old problems. There is no greater example of that than the phenomenal success of our vaccine roll-out. That would not have been possible without the staff, who are the golden thread that runs through our NHS. As we look to the future and a post-pandemic world, we know that, as the shadow Minister said, there is no shortage of challenges ahead of us: an ageing population, an increase in people with multiple health conditions and, as he rightly says, the challenge of deep-rooted inequalities in health outcomes and the need to look at the broader context. I do not know the shadow Minister as well as I knew his predecessor, but both his predecessor and I had a career in local government as councillors. I suspect that the shadow Minister may have had one too, so he may well know that I understand his point about the broader context.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will make a little more progress. If I can, I will then try to give way to hon. Members.

More needs to be done, and we are giving the NHS the support that it needs and has asked for. In addition to our historic settlement for the NHS in 2018, which will see its budget rise by £33.9 billion a year by 2023-24, we have pledged a record £36 billion for investment in the health and care system over the next three years. The funding will ensure that the NHS has the long-term resources that it needs to tackle the covid backlogs and build back better from the pandemic.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Member for Stockton South referred to recruitment within the NHS. What is the Government’s response to that, to ensure that we have the recruitment and the staff in place?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As the hon. Gentleman will know, there are 1.2 million full-time equivalents in the NHS—a record number of staff. Take one example: our pledge for 50,000 more nurses by the time of the next scheduled general election in 2024. Last year alone, we saw the number of nurses in our NHS increase by 10,900. We have a plan in place, and we are recruiting and training more staff through increased numbers of places—at medical schools, for example.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister give way?

Edward Argar Portrait Edward Argar
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not, because I have only two or three minutes left. If I make sufficient progress, I will try to give way, but I cannot promise the hon. Lady.

We know that different parts of the system want to work together and deliver joined-up services, and we know that when they do, it works; we have seen that with non-statutory integrated care systems over the past few years. The petition calls for the Government to “scrap integrated care systems”, but to do so would be to let down our NHS. The reforms have been developed by the NHS, and integrated care systems are already in place. The Health and Care Bill places them on a statutory footing to allow for that integration and joined-up working to continue.

In the minute or two I have left before I hand back to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South, I will touch on PFI contracts, which is an issue that he and other hon. Members have raised. In 2018, the Government announced that PFI and PF2 will not be used for any future public sector projects, including those in the NHS. The Government will honour existing PFI contracts, as wholesale termination would not necessarily represent good value for money. We need to look at each on its merits; many have clauses for early termination, which would cost a lot more than the life of the contract.

However, we have committed to undo the worst of the contracts inherited from the previous Government. The hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson)—I hope he will let me tweak his tail a little on this—chided my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South by saying he should be careful about references to PFIs. Of the 124 significant PFIs currently in place, 122 were signed between 1997 and 2010.

Mr Gray, I think you want me to give my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South some time to sum up, so I will conclude. We believe that this Government are doing everything necessary to ensure that the NHS remains free at the point of use. We are working with the NHS to deliver what it has asked for through the Health and Care Bill. There is huge support from those working in the system for the direction of travel. The Bill will create a more efficient and integrated healthcare system that is less bureaucratic, and allegations that this is privatisation by the back door are simply misleading. Through the legislation, we will ensure better and more joined-up services, improving health and care outcomes for all.

00:05
Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the 135,000 petitioners for triggering this important debate on our most essential and treasured service. I thank Members for their valuable, emotional and passionate contributions, and I thank the Minister for what was a comprehensive response. The NHS is a great British institution, and we should be proud of it. From Borough to Burnley, our NHS staff are rightly celebrated as heroes. Their dedication got us through the pandemic and will help us reach the 6 million people on our waiting lists. We owe them a gratitude that cannot be expressed in words.

Dentistry remains an issue for constituents across the UK, and I look forward to the debate on NHS dentistry, which I understand is to take place in the near future. I am delighted that the NHS has the biggest cash boost in its history, and I am delighted to see thousands more doctors and nurses working in our amazing hospitals. I look forward to more debates on the NHS, so that we can continue to appreciate, extend and improve our great British NHS.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petition 598732, relating to the future of the NHS.

00:05
Sitting adjourned.

Written Statements

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Monday 31 January 2022

Regulation of Business, and Water, and Water Energy and Telecoms

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Kwasi Kwarteng Portrait The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The UK has left the European Union. We have regained sovereign control over our laws, borders and money. For the first time in half a century, we have the freedom to conceive and implement rules that put the UK first. This means that now is the time to think boldly about how we regulate in order to modernise our approach, unlock cutting-edge technologies, ease burdens and cut red tape, and boost competition.

In July 2021 I jointly launched the consultation on “Reforming the framework for better regulation”, to capitalise on the regulatory freedoms provided by leaving the European Union. In the consultation I set out that the Government are committed to a regulatory system that is smart, proportionate and considers the needs of business. The system Government use to manage the flow of regulation and understand its impacts is key to delivering this commitment and plays an important role in helping to drive behaviour and approaches to policy making across government.

An overwhelming majority of responses to the consultation welcomed some degree of reform. A full summary of responses to the consultation will be published today, alongside the Government’s policy document, “The Benefits of Brexit”.

Our proposed reforms to the framework for better regulation are underpinned by four core policy changes, which aim to improve and control the flow of regulation across government, and assess its value:

Adopting a greater emphasis on proportionality, to ensure that we regulate in a way that focuses on allowing businesses to grow, while giving greater flexibility to try innovative new approaches.

Ensuring that we are making the best use of alternatives to regulation by introducing an earlier scrutiny point at which departments will be asked to justify their decision to regulate.

Improving how we evaluate regulation, including post-implementation reviews.

Improving how we measure the overall impact of regulation, including consideration of a more holistic approach and the removal of the Business Impact Target (BIT) in its current form.

While these reforms represent a streamlining of process and a change of emphasis, they do not undermine or reduce the requirements for Departments to produce options appraisals and quantified impacts in accordance with the Green Book.

The reforms proposed to the framework for better regulation will not take place at once. There will be a transitional year, with one final BIT report, while we bring forward legislation to make changes to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. BEIS will use that time to agree with Departments the details of metrics, targets and exemptions.

Alongside these reforms, today I will publish a policy paper on the future of economic regulation of water, energy, and telecoms within the UK. This follows a commitment in the National Infrastructure Strategy for Government to produce an overarching policy paper in this area.

The policy paper will set out Government’s vision to incentivise increased investment needed to create world class utilities infrastructure that helps protect consumers, promote economic growth and sector resilience, while meeting our ambitious environmental targets. The paper covers the following areas:

How the Government intend to ensure that the regulators’ duties will allow them to meet these systemic challenges, conducting a review of duties in 2022;

how the Government will provide strategic clarity on our long-term aims for these sectors, publishing a letter of strategic guidance to the CEOs of Ofwat, Ofgem, and Ofcom;

how competition for strategic investment opportunities can be enhanced for the long-term benefit of consumers and investors; and

how transparency and consistency in key processes can be improved; in particular seeking appropriate alignment on economical calculations and the regulatory appeals system.

This policy paper is the first step to updating our model of economic regulation. In 2022, we will be launching a consultation setting out more detail on a package of measures to ensure the UK model of economic regulation fits the needs of the modern age.

I will place a copy of the future of economic regulation of water, energy and telecoms within the UK paper in the Libraries of the House.

In putting all these reforms into practice, the Government and our independent regulators must always remember that the way we make and enforce regulation makes a tangible difference to people. Our job is to help people and businesses to achieve better outcomes for themselves. That was what taking back control for the UK was about.

I will place a copy of the “Benefits of Brexit” paper in the Libraries of the House.

[HCWS571]

Covid-19: Purchase of Critical Supplies

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Edward Argar Portrait The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This statement is on the accounting impairment impact of equipment purchased in response to the covid pandemic

Today, we are publishing information relating to our purchasing efforts for critical supplies that have helped this country in our fight against the pandemic.

Since this unprecedented global pandemic erupted our absolute priority throughout has always been saving lives.

In a highly competitive global market, where many countries imposed export bans, we secured billions of items of PPE and have delivered over 17.5 billion items so far to protect our frontline workers. The Government acted quickly to achieve the target of obtaining 30,000 ventilators by the end of June 2020. The supply of these vital items has helped to keep the NHS open throughout the pandemic and enabled it to deliver a world-class service to the public.

The scale of the challenge we faced in sourcing these goods should not be underestimated. Globally there were significant logistical challenges in sourcing, procuring and distributing goods. The rapid rise in international infection rates during the early stages of the pandemic created unparalleled demand.

The disruption to the market, coupled with the unprecedented spike in demand, resulted in a huge inflation in price for goods and intense global competition to secure scarce supplies. For example, the average cost of a nitrile glove increased over six-fold at the height of the pandemic compared with pre-pandemic levels.

In this unique situation, we had to change our approach to procurement and our appetite for risk. The risk that contracts might not perform and that supplies were priced at a premium needed to be balanced against the risk to the health of frontline workers, the NHS and the public if we failed to get the PPE we so desperately needed. We make no apology for procuring PPE at pace and volume so that we could protect thousands of frontline healthcare workers in the NHS and social care.

The Department assessed PPE requirements at the beginning of the pandemic. However, as this was a new disease, we did not have data on actual levels of need. The Department of Health and Social Care developed a sophisticated model to assess demand. Our estimates of demand relied on reasonable worst-case scenario planning, information about the prevailing IPC guidance and the likely number of patient interactions in every healthcare setting. The Department’s approach to cover all settings for healthcare workers means that we have additional stock of £0.8 billion.

Our planning also had to take into account the likely non-performance of contracts. Our buying activities were more successful than we predicted, such that 97% of the units purchased have been assessed as adequate to provide protection for health care workers. A small proportion (3%) of items have been deemed not suitable for use, equivalent to £0.7 billion.

We are now in a position where we have high confidence that we have sufficient stock to cover all future covid-19 related demands, even in the face of the omicron variant. The PPE stocks we secured have allowed us to meet demand through 2020-21 and 2021-22. Our existing PPE stocks will continue to support us throughout 2022-23. Indeed, the high standards of protection we set for NHS workers means that we have an additional 10% of units that may not be suitable for use within the health and social care sectors but may have alternative uses than those we originally envisaged—£2.6 billion.

Within the Test and Trace and Ventilators programme the high standards we have set means that we have items of kit and other equipment that are not suitable for use—£0.3 billion.

As part of the Department’s annual reporting, we have prepared a statement outlining the diminishment in value of the Department’s covid stock holding at 31 March 2021 due to:

For stock we expect to use, changes in global prices between the point of purchase and market prices at 31 March 2021. As the world market has now stabilised and we are returning to more “business as usual” conditions, the value of some categories of goods is now much lower than the price they were purchased for. For example, we now estimate the value of aprons that we purchased is a third of what we paid during the height of the pandemic.

Stock that has failed quality testing and/or technical assurance and is considered not fit for use in any setting. In these cases we are seeking recovery of funds from suppliers wherever possible.

Stock that we do not intend to use for its original intended purpose, perhaps because it was bought as a contingency or has characteristics that prevent its use in a UK healthcare setting but could be considered for alternative use or resale; and,

Stock in excess of current forecast requirements where alternative use or resale is required to maximise the value of the stockpile and prevent wastage through future date expiry.

Our efforts to manage the stockpile effectively, and in doing so maximise its value, are ongoing. The Department has established a redistribution team to identify alternative uses and resale potential for inventory we do not intend or expect to use. For example, donating masks to both the Department for Transport and Department for Education to aid the reopening of the economy on public transport and to support schools following their reopening in March 2021. Any repurposing or resale of inventory is carefully considered as maintaining adequate supplies for frontline workers remains our priority.

Medical professionals within the Department’s quality control and assurance function and colleagues within Medical Surveillance Authorities have recognised that stock which has exceeded its manufacturers use-by date, is not necessarily unusable. The Department has begun a tender for a third-party medical laboratory to provide official testing of PPE products with a view to extending shelf life to maximise the usefulness and therefore value for money from the PPE purchased without compromising the quality of goods made available for use.

In addition, the Department is currently working through a revision to the pandemic preparedness stockpile, incorporating the learnings from this pandemic. We now have a more strategic approach to our supplier base, signing contracts with over 30 UK-based companies, reducing our reliance on established manufacturers in the far east and our carbon footprint. Environmental considerations are at the heart of the Department’s strategy for the ongoing management of the covid inventory stockpiles, including inventory disposals.

[HCWS572]

UK-India Free Trade Agreement Negotiations

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Written Statements
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Anne-Marie Trevelyan Portrait The Secretary of State for International Trade (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Negotiating teams from the UK and India came together—virtually—between 17 and 28 January 2022 for a first round of talks on a UK-India Free Trade Agreement (FTA). This swiftly followed the launch of negotiations on 13 January when I visited India.

Both sides are committed to progressing negotiations at pace, without compromising on the quality of the deal. We aim to reach a balanced and mutually beneficial trade agreement, delivering benefits for all sectors and across all of the UK. Officials from a range of Departments and Ministries in the UK and India conducted over 90 hours of virtual discussions across a broad range of policy topics.

Technical experts from both sides came together for discussions in 32 separate sessions covering 26 policy areas including: trade in goods, trade in services including financial services and telecommunications, investment, intellectual property, customs and trade facilitation, sanitary and phytosanitary measures, technical barriers to trade, competition, gender, Government procurement, SMEs, sustainability, transparency, trade and development, geographical indicators and digital.

The discussions were open, collaborative and productive, reflecting the shared ambition of the UK and India Governments to secure a broad deal to boost trade between the fifth and sixth largest economies in the world.

The second round of negotiations is scheduled to commence on 7 March 2022.

A deal with India would help to put Global Britain at the heart of the Indo-Pacific region, cement our position as a leader among a network of countries committed to free trade and support the levelling up agenda across the UK.

Any deal the Government strike must be in the best interests of the British people and the economy.

The Government will keep Parliament updated as these negotiations progress.

[HCWS570]

Grand Committee

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Grand Committee
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Monday 31 January 2022
15:45

Arrangement of Business

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Grand Committee
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Announcement
Lord Brougham and Vaux Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, good afternoon. Members are encouraged to leave some distance between themselves and others and to wear face coverings when not speaking. If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.

Committee (1st Day)
15:45
Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee
Clause 1: Overview and application of Act
Amendment 1
Moved by
1: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, after “Parliament” insert “or in legislation enacted by Senedd Cymru or the Scottish Parliament”
Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
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My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to open Committee on this important Bill by moving Amendment 1, which stands in my name, and for which I am grateful for the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys. I apologise that I was unable to participate at Second Reading: at that point I was self-isolating after testing positive for Covid. I wrote to the Minister to explain my absence. I was able to follow the whole Second Reading debate on the parliamentary live feed and from that I am aware that the dimension I raise in this amendment was touched upon by several speakers—and of course, I am conscious of the sentiment expressed in Senedd Cymru on the matter.

The point of the amendment is to ensure that Senedd Cymru and the Scottish Parliament are fully involved in the procedures triggered by Clause 1, and thereby the application of the Act for which Clause 1, of course, provides. This goes to the heart of the issues addressed by the Bill. That relates to the essential and totally valid role of Senedd Cymru and the Scottish Parliament in matters relating to subsidy control. I make it clear that I accept that there needs to be a framework in any common market or customs union in which subsidies can be permitted or prohibited. Therefore, there has to be a clear and transparent mechanism for defining the context within which subsidies can be paid, and therefore also the mechanisms of subsidy control that are necessary.

Let us be clear: subsidies have been a tool of government for both Conservative and Labour Governments down the years. One has to think only of the agricultural subsidies applied in UK long before our accession to the Common Market to see that such interventions have been regarded as legitimate. Before the UK entered the European Union, both the Wilson and Heath Governments operated substantial capital and revenue interventions, such as the selective employment tax and the regional employment premium. At one time, such schemes on a revenue basis and capital investment schemes could provide as much as 45% support for manufacturing industry investment. Indeed, when I was head of finance at Hoover, we negotiated an investment package in which £11 million out of a £16 million expansion scheme—substantial money in the early 1970s—came from public funds.

However, in acknowledging the validity of such interventions, as I believe the Minister does, it would be quite unacceptable for the power to decide whether subsidy controls are necessary to rest in one legislature alone. It must be on the basis of parity of esteem for all relevant legislatures—and Senedd Cymru and the Scottish Parliament are most certainly relevant legislatures. It would be totally unacceptable if one Parliament could legislate to protect its own interests while other Parliaments, with responsibility for economic development within their nations, were denied that power. If such powers are to be at the disposal of one partner within the union, they must be equally available to other nations.

It could be that the intention of the Government in proposing the wording of Clause 1(7) is to use the term “an Act of Parliament” in a generic manner, but the definition in Clause 89, the interpretation clause, rules that out, as indeed does the normal usage of that term at Westminster. It may well be that the Government do indeed regard Westminster as the senior partner in these matters and are deliberately choosing to legislate in a preferential manner that enables Westminster, by the use of Acts of Parliament, to seize control of this entire agenda. If that is so, it can be little surprise that the devolved Governments are extremely unhappy about the implications.

This matter, in various guises, is likely to arise again at various junctures in our deliberations. Indeed, other amendments on the Marshalled List raise these considerations. I shall listen to other speakers when they address those other amendments in due course, and there may well be better ways of dealing with this fundamental dimension than the wording that I propose in Amendment 2. However, let the Committee be in no doubt that an equal, even-handed approach must be built into the Bill for it to be acceptable in both Wales and Scotland. On that basis, I beg to move Amendment 1.

Lord Hope of Craighead Portrait Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
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My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and I agree with what he has just said in support of it. As he mentioned, it will be apparent from the many amendments on the Marshalled List that mention the devolved Administrations that there are real concerns that the provisions of the Bill as they stand will have an adverse effect on the relationship between those Administrations and the UK Government.

I recognise that subsidy control was made a reserved matter by Part 7 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, but that does not mean that the UK Government should shut their eyes and ears to the views of competent authorities throughout the UK, and of the devolved Administrations themselves, as to the way that subsidies are distributed and controlled. After all, while we were in the EU the Commission had a very robust evidence-based consultation procedure which ensured that other voices were heard, and that should continue to be the position.

“Respect” and “co-operation” were the key words in the recent report by the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, about building a stronger union in the 21st century, but I am afraid that those virtues were absent when the internal market Bill was being designed and debated in this House and the other place. As a result, relations with the devolved Administrations became very strained. We do not want to go back to that, but the way in which the Bill has been drafted appears to pay very little attention to the concerns and needs of the devolved Administrations.

I am sure that the Minister will remember, very well, the conversations we had with regard to the amendments I tabled to the internal market Bill to enable exemptions from market access principles to be given to agreed common frameworks. They did not seem to get us very far, until, at the very last moment, there was a change of mind in the Government and an appropriate amendment was put through. Of course, I understand that the Minister’s hands were tied, but I hope there may be a little more flexibility this time.

I respectfully ask the Minister to say something about the legislative consent procedure in relation to the Bill. The Constitution Committee said:

“For the Sewel convention to operate well, constructive relationships and good faith is required between the UK Government and the devolved administrations.”


I hope that that is how things are being handled this time and that the Minister will keep the Committee updated as discussions continue, with a view to settling the devolved Administrations’ concerns, which I believe are still there; as I understand it, a consent Motion has not been achieved in either case.

Baroness Humphreys Portrait Baroness Humphreys (LD)
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My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and support Amendments 13, 16 and 17 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, to which I have also added my name. Clause 1 provides an overview to the contents of the Bill. Amendment 1, in a few words, points out exactly what is wrong with the clause and the Bill itself, which is that, by their very omission from the Bill, there is no role to be played by the devolved Ministers or the devolved Administrations in the subsidy control scheme, even in areas where they have devolved competence.

All noble Lords agree and accept that the regulation of subsidies is a reserved matter, as do I and my colleagues from the devolved nations, but no consideration is given in the Bill to the sensitive issue of the UK Government acting in the areas of economic development, agriculture and fisheries—areas which, until now, have been overseen by the devolved Administration under powers given to them under the Government of Wales Act 2006. I understand the Minister’s desire to create a UK-wide scheme for the regulation of subsidies, and I know that he sees it as a way to strengthen the union, but I must respectfully disagree with him. Strengthening the union is a political concept and should have no place in underpinning a practical scheme such as this.

I refer the Minister to this document: the supplementary legislative consent memorandum agreed by the Senedd to the Building Safety Bill, which will have its Second Reading in this House tomorrow. I must admit that it gladdened my heart to read it. In that Bill, the Government place a requirement on developers across the UK to belong to a single, independent new homes ombudsman scheme. Paragraph 4 of the Welsh Government LCM reads:

“As housing is a devolved matter, the UK Government has worked with devolved governments to seek agreement for the new arrangements under the NHO to be UK-wide for home owners and developers.”


Amendments were tabled by the UK Government at both Commons Committee and Report stages, one of which provided for consultation with Welsh Ministers before the Secretary of State makes arrangements for an NHO scheme. The list includes amendments made at the request of the Welsh Government that recognise their devolved competence.

So we have another Bill seeking to create a UK-wide scheme, just as the Subsidy Control Bill does, but what a difference in approach between the two government departments. The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities has been constructive, co-operative and willing to recognise the powers of the devolved Governments. Because the housing department has chosen to collaborate with the devolved Governments, one must ask the Business Minister: does he believe that this has really resulted in a weakening of the union? I would argue that the union is at its strongest when each component part is strong and using its powers, experience and knowledge to contribute positively to the proper functioning of the whole. The acceptance of Amendment 1 would begin to achieve that.

The amendments to Clause 10 to which I have added my name follow a similar theme and would clarify the role of devolved Ministers in making a streamlined subsidy scheme. They clarify that those schemes must be laid before the relevant devolved legislature and, if modified, the modified terms must be laid before the relevant devolved legislature too. I fully support those amendments. If both noble Lords wish to table their amendments again on Report, they will have my full support.

Finally, I am aware that the Under-Secretary of State, Paul Scully, was scheduled to meet the Welsh Finance Minister on Thursday last week. Can the Minister confirm that the meeting took place and when, and tell us what was discussed and the outcome?

16:00
Baroness Bryan of Partick Portrait Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)
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My Lords, I too support this group of amendments.

I recognise that some aspects of the Bill should be welcomed. It has the potential to produce a more flexible and responsive system. The ability to streamline could make a crucial difference to local economies. What is concerning about the Bill is that the devolved Administrations are treated as having the same role in their economies as that of local authorities. It fails to recognise that each has a strategic responsibility for their national economy. Despite the Minister’s assurance that

“the Government have worked closely with the devolved Administrations, including sharing the consultation response document ahead of publication and carefully considering their representations”—[Official Report, 19/1/22; col. 1711.]

the devolved Administrations disagree and feel that they have been told rather than consulted.

The Scottish Government argue that the Bill should give Scottish Ministers the same powers as the Secretary of State has over matters such as referring subsidies to the Competition and Markets Authority, making streamlined subsidy schemes, and providing subsidies in response to natural disasters and other emergencies. The Welsh Government are concerned by the powers being given to the Secretary of State to shape the regime in future, with little scrutiny by the UK Parliament and none by Welsh Ministers or the Senedd. Both Governments agree that this legislation undermines powers which are fundamental to their ability to shape their own economies and industrial development.

People in Scotland and Wales view their devolved Governments and Parliaments as being responsible for the economy of their country. When they voted in last May’s elections, they chose to vote for policies that were different from those of the UK Government. My worry is that this Government want to turn back the clock to pre-devolution times.

Having looked closely at the Minister’s response at Second Reading, and the concerns raised about the exclusion of the devolved Administrations from some of the powers given to UK Ministers, I could find no explanation for why this should be the case. I hope the Minister will give a clear reason why these Parliaments and elected Governments should not have similar powers to those that the Bill awards to UK Ministers.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
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My Lords, these amendments, which I fully support, allow the Senedd Cymru and the Scottish Parliament actually to decide issues for themselves. The legislation itself is deeply annoying because this should be standard in every Bill. I do not understand why the Government keep leaving it out.

In the Scottish independence referendum, the people of Scotland were promised devo-max. They received no such thing and then Brexit came along and gave this Government an excuse to steadily unpick devolution and centralise power in the UK Government. This is evidenced by Clause 1(7), which allows the UK Parliament to legislate contrary to the Bill but does not allow the devolved Parliaments any similar power. I simply do not understand that.

I will support these amendments if they come back on Report. I hope by then the Minister will understand that this should be in every single Bill. It should not be fought over every time. We do not want constant battles in Parliament to enact the devo-max that Scotland was promised. So please let us get some movement on this and actually make it fit for purpose.

Baroness Randerson Portrait Baroness Randerson (LD)
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My Lords, I will speak specifically to Amendment 20, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, to which I have added my name. Before I do, I want to place on record my concern that our debates on the Bill are being held only in Grand Committee. This Bill is of equal significance to the internal market Bill, and it has both economic and constitutional significance way above the status it is apparently being given by being located here.

Amendment 20 closely reflects the concerns of the Welsh Government, and there are of course similar concerns among the Scottish Government. In comparison with the other amendments in this group, Amendment 20 is a modest request for the Secretary of State to seek consent from the devolved Governments. However, if consent is not given the Secretary of State can go ahead anyway. This reflects a formula accepted by the Government in other pieces of legislation, which I assume is why it was written in this way—because it is the least controversial option of those put forward. It implicitly allows for a situation in which a devolved Government might seek simply to frustrate the UK Government’s efforts without full discussion and, therefore, does not reflect that in the vast majority of situations devolved Governments seek to negotiate in good faith with the UK Government. That is what the Welsh Government have certainly done this time, but they are not prepared to issue an LCM.

I signed the amendment despite my reservations that a Secretary of State’s Statement is to go to the House of Commons and that this place is not referred to. Given our attention to detail, I would hope that both Houses would be kept informed.

The amendments in this group all seek to restore an appropriate counterbalance to the sweeping powers the Bill allocates to the Secretary of State. Despite the Government’s chastening experience during debates on the internal market Bill, they seem heedlessly determined to continue their smash and grab on the powers of the devolved Parliaments. I am pleased to hear that at least one department of the UK Government has seen the light on this, but that does not alter the fact that the Bill is unreconstructed in its approach.

The Government talk about strengthening the union but are seizing every opportunity to undermine devolution. Powers over economic development and its funding have been devolved, in effect, since the Welsh Development Agency was established in 1975. Long prior to devolution, it was an example of excellence in pursuing successful economic development opportunities, mostly using funding.

The Minister will undoubtedly protest that nothing here removes powers over economic development or agriculture, for example, but power without funding power is a meaningless shell. This system allows the Secretary of State to halt schemes devised by devolved Governments because they are deemed unfair, but it does not in turn allow the devolved Governments to complain about the Secretary of State’s schemes devised for England.

It is not surprising that this is a sensitive issue in Wales. Under the EU system, two-thirds of Wales benefited from regional funding. In the Brexit debate prior to the referendum, people in Wales were promised specifically that they would not lose a single pound or euro, and voted accordingly. That promise proved very wide of the mark, and people in Wales feel betrayed.

It is worth noting that devolution in Wales is much less controversial than in Scotland. It enjoys very broad support across the political spectrum, and chipping away at the Welsh Government’s power to deliver on economic development or agriculture, for instance, is a dangerous path for the UK Government to take. I hope Ministers will see the light.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Humphreys and Lady Randerson, for putting their names to a number of my amendments in this group. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, as well. His opening remarks summed up the thrust of group one, which is to ensure that the devolved Administrations are fully involved and engaged, and that there is parity of esteem for all the relevant legislatures. It set up the framework for this group of amendments rather well.

As we have heard, this is the first of several important debates on devolution, one of the major concerns about the Bill. As has been noted, at Second Reading the Minister outlined the number of meetings he had had with devolved officials—45, I think, 13 of them to talk about the regime itself. It is concerning that those meetings have taken place but we still find ourselves in a situation where there are unresolved issues with the Scottish Government and the Senedd.

My take on this is that it will not take a lot to move this on. In fact, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, Amendment 20 is a very modest amendment, which would give the Secretary of State the power still to press ahead after a month if an agreement has not been reached. These are not tough amendments, especially following some of the debates in the Commons.

On that subject, I thank the department for releasing the guidance, but it is a bit bizarre that the Bill passed through the Commons stages without any of the guidance being published or being able to be read. There are still a lot of square brackets in the guidance and bits that needs to be filled in. As we will touch on later, the concerns that the DPRRC raised will, I hope, lead to some positive changes to the Bill.

A number of noble Lords spoke at Second Reading of their concerns and those of the devolved Administrations, many of which we shared and echoed. Amendments 13, 16 and 17 are intended to make it clear that the devolved authorities can make and modify streamlined subsidy schemes. As we are aware, at present the Bill reserves that power for the Secretary of State, although comments were made in the debates in the other place by the Commons Minister that this could be broadened out. It would be good to hear from the noble Baroness, when she responds on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, whether we have seen any movement or development in broadening it out.

We also saw, throughout the Brexit process, which was touched on by a number of noble Lords, that when we got down to the detail in your Lordships’ House we were able to make changes and amendments. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, talked about some of those regarding the internal market Bill. It would be good if we did not have to take this as far or go through the same pain and difficulties that we did on that Bill, especially when the amendments we are looking to make fit into and sit alongside the same changes made there. With that, I will conclude. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s response.

16:15
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist Portrait Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
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I thank the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, for tabling Amendments 1, 13, 16, 17 and 20, and all other noble Lords who participated in this debate. I say at the outset, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that the use of the Moses Room is not intended to minimise the importance of this Committee stage. We agreed through the usual channels that this would be the best use of time.

Before I discuss each amendment in turn, I start by saying that the proposed UK subsidy control regime empowers public authorities, including the devolved Administrations, to award subsidies flexibly and quickly to meet their policy objectives. As noble Lords have said, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 amended the relevant devolution Acts to make the regulation of subsidies a reserved, or in Northern Ireland an accepted, matter. The devolved Administrations are, and will remain, responsible for spending decisions on devolved subsidies within any subsidy control system.

As the Minister in the other place clarified, the devolved Administrations have standing to challenge UK Government or any other subsidies in the Competition Appeal Tribunal in instances where the interests of people in the areas in which they exercise their responsibility are affected. Some provisions of the Bill engage the legislative consent Motion process, as they alter executive competence; for example, they confer new functions on DA Ministers. We hope that the devolved Administrations will agree with us on the importance of the Bill and be able to give us their legislative consent for the relevant provisions. Those discussions are continuing and I will keep the Committee updated.

We have engaged closely with the devolved Administrations throughout this process at ministerial and official level, not only on the LCM process but on our policy development ahead of the Bill’s introduction, in advance of our publication last week of the illustrative documents, and as we continue through the parliamentary process in the run-up to implementation. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, I confirm that the Minister for Small Business met the Welsh Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans, last Thursday—27 January. The meeting discussed the Bill as part of ongoing engagement to understand concerns on it and to provide reassurance.

I will begin with Amendment 1. Clause 1 provides an overview of what each part of the Bill will cover and establishes its application to other legislation. Clause 1(7) and (8) specify that if a subsidy is granted, or a scheme is created, using powers contained in either primary or secondary legislation, the subsidy control requirements will apply, unless an Act of Parliament specifies otherwise. The specific reference to an Act of Parliament here is solely to clarify that nothing in the Bill should be interpreted as conflicting with the fundamental principle that no Act of Parliament may bind a future Parliament; in other words, it reflects the constitutional reality and does not create any further exemption or special treatment.

Amendment 1, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, extends this clarificatory statement to cover the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament. In doing so, it fundamentally changes the character of this statement from a clarification to an exemption from the subsidy control requirements. The amendment would allow the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament to set aside the subsidy control requirements set out in the Bill, not only for the purpose of subsidies given directly in primary legislation, for which specific provision is made in Schedule 3, but for subsidies given by means of a power in that legislation; in other words, for all devolved spending powers in Scotland and Wales.

The discrepancy highlighted here between the Parliament of the United Kingdom and the legislatures in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is not a matter of government policy but a reflection of constitutional reality. The subsidy control regime differentiates between devolved legislatures and Parliament in a way that respects the devolved legislatures and reflects this Parliament’s status as the supreme legislative body of the United Kingdom. The devolved legislatures have a unique constitutional status and we have ensured that the requirements placed on subsidies given directly in devolved primary legislation are proportionate and respectful of their status and processes. Schedule 3 sets out the specific arrangements that take account of this. None the less, it is important that the subsidy control requirements apply comprehensively and that we do not create exemptions.

As for subsidies given through powers conferred by Parliament or the devolved legislatures in secondary legislation or otherwise, it is essential that these are compliant with the subsidy control rules without exception. As it stands, the clause simply clarifies that express or implied repeal by a future Act of Parliament remains a possibility. It does not suggest that the Government will, on a whim, propose legislation that exempts a particular project or power from the subsidy control requirements.

It is absolutely right that subsidy control is a reserved matter: by its very nature, it affects how all public authorities in the UK, including devolved authorities, may exercise their spending powers. That is because its purpose is to establish common rules for different authorities with different interests and policy objectives to protect UK competition and investment. The Bill will also facilitate our compliance with our international obligations, including those set out in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, which reflect exactly this constitutional reality.

I turn to Amendments 13, 16 and 17. Clause 10 concerns the making of subsidy schemes and streamlined subsidy schemes. Public authorities using a streamlined subsidy scheme will not have to access any subsidies they award under the terms of the scheme against the subsidy control principles. Streamlined subsidy schemes will have parameters for use that must be complied with by the public authorities using them, and can be made by a Minister of the Crown. Two illustrative streamlined subsidy schemes were published by the Government last week; I trust that they provide practical examples for noble Lords of the possible terms of these parameters for use.

Together, Amendments 13, 16 and 17 would have the effect that a Scottish Minister, a Welsh Minister or the Northern Ireland department would have the power to make streamlined subsidy schemes and lay them before their relevant devolved legislature. I will therefore take them together. The first amendment would allow streamlined subsidy schemes to be made by Ministers in Scotland or Wales or the Northern Ireland department. The second and third amendments would require such streamlined subsidy schemes to be laid before the relevant devolved legislature when made or amended.

Related amendments on this matter, regarding the role of the devolved Administrations, were made in the other place. The position of the Government remains that we will create streamlined subsidy schemes for public authorities across the UK to use to award subsidies that help UK-wide priorities. Streamlined subsidy schemes will therefore function best when they apply across the length and breadth of the United Kingdom. The Government will design these streamlined subsidy schemes such that they are fit to be used by public authorities in all parts of the United Kingdom.

Given that these streamlined subsidy schemes will be part of the UK-wide subsidy control regime, the appropriate place for them to be laid is in this Parliament. We have published two illustrative streamlined subsidy schemes and an accompanying policy statement that sets out for Parliament how the Government intend to use these schemes. We have worked with the devolved Administrations while developing this policy at both official and ministerial level. Officials will continue their close engagement with the devolved Administrations as the regime continues to develop. Finally, it is important to note that Scottish Ministers, Welsh Ministers or a Northern Ireland department, as primary public authorities, can also make schemes for use by other public authorities where that is within their existing functional powers; for example, the Scottish Government may choose to make a scheme for use by local authorities in Scotland.

On Amendment 20, Clause 11 sets out the terms for making regulations to define subsidies and schemes of interest or schemes of particular interest. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of each of the devolved Administrations before making regulations on subsidies, schemes of interest or schemes of particular interest under the clause. If this consent was not forthcoming, the Secretary of State would be required to make a statement to the other place explaining why they had chosen to proceed with the regulations without DA consent.

This amendment was also raised in the other place; the Government’s position on it remains the same. Regulations made under Clause 11 will define subsidies, schemes of interest and schemes of particular interest to ensure that the work of the subsidy advice unit is focused on subsidies and schemes that are most likely to cause negative effects on competition and investment in the United Kingdom, or which may do the same to our trade with other countries.

These regulations are key to the functioning of a reserved policy area. It is right, therefore, for the regulations to be debated and voted on here in the UK Parliament. I simply do not believe that it is appropriate to require the Secretary of State to seek consent even when the Secretary of State may ultimately proceed without that consent from the devolved Administrations on a reserved matter. A requirement to seek the consent of the devolved Administrations each time regulations are made under Clause 11 also risks introducing significant delays into the process, particularly if regulations need to be amended quickly in the future, such as in the event that economic conditions change rapidly. In such cases, the Government may need to legislate rapidly without consent, so the amendment would not achieve its aim.

The Government have had numerous discussions with Ministers and officials in the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and we are committed to continuing to engage regularly with them. We have published illustrative regulations on subsidies and schemes of interest and of particular interest, in addition to the accompanying policy statement outlining the Government’s approach to this important question. Ahead of publication, officials have discussed the approach to these regulations with each of the DAs, taking on board their comments and suggestions as the policy has developed. We have also provided early sight of the draft regulations for comment ahead of publication. I assure noble Lords that this engagement will continue as we prepare for implementation of the regime. I also welcome any comments or questions that my noble friend may have regarding the illustrative products. Indeed, I welcome any further comments or questions from the devolved Administrations. I therefore humbly request that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response, which I will come back to in a moment. First, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, spoke of respect and co-operation between Westminster and the devolved Administrations. That goes to the heart of what we are talking about. We need a regime, as far as these aspects of business are concerned, that has mutual respect and co-operation between all parties; otherwise, we are bound to find ourselves in a position where one body is trying to outdo the other and perhaps to gain political kudos for doing so. That is not what this should be about.

The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, whose support I was grateful to receive, spoke about the Bill giving no consideration to the issues that arose in respect of earlier Westminster Bills taking powers from the devolved Administrations. That is the feeling that exists, certainly in Cardiff Bay and the Senedd and, as I understand it, in Edinburgh as well.

I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan of Partick, for her comments. She highlighted the failure of Westminster to adequately consult in good time. That, again, is an element of this lack of respect. By properly consulting in time, there is an opportunity to be able to amend proposals taking such consultation on board. But it is done at the last moment. I understand that one consultation took place last Saturday—not from this department, I think—on something that is happening today. That is no good. There has to be an active engagement between the Governments of our three nations, or four nations if we include Northern Ireland—I have not included Northern Ireland in this because of the complex situation there, but of course the principles apply equally.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke of the need to have proper respect for devolved Administrations. That should run through every Bill. I noted the strong feelings that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who spoke mainly to Amendment 20, had concerning the consent of the devolved Administrations. The parity of esteem that the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, talked about goes to the heart of this issue.

The other amendments in this group will no doubt be taken at later stages in different guises, because they touch on subjects that arise in different parts of the Bill, but the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, said that the question of the relationship between the Governments in Cardiff, Edinburgh and here at Westminster “reflects the constitutional reality”—those are the words that she used. Those words will create a reaction in Edinburgh and Cardiff that will cause even greater problems.

We need to seek a new partnership approach. If the unity of purpose within these islands is to mean anything, it must be on the basis of respect between all three or four partners and not the idea that because Westminster was the original one and the all-powerful one, it can overrule or ignore what is felt in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast. I believe that it is possible in the general context to get a formula that can reflect that need for recognition and respect, but it is not going to be achieved in the way that the Bill is drafted. The reaction in Cardiff and Edinburgh was totally foreseeable and it could have been avoided—and it needs to be avoided.

16:30
We will get into other details later when we consider the mechanics of subsidies, where they are appropriate and for what purpose, and who should be driving them forward. However, I counsel the Government to be very careful about thinking that they might be able to leapfrog the Administrations in Edinburgh and Cardiff to engage with local government. Local government will never say no to any money that is given, but the political reaction to that could be severe. In other words, there needs to be some careful thought as we consider the Bill.
Clearly, I am not going to press Amendment 1 at this stage and I may or may not return to it in this format at a later stage, but, my goodness, the questions that have arisen will come back at later stages. We need to get our act together and think how we can get a partnership that will serve business, industry and commerce—and the people, the population—in all parts of these islands. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 1 withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed.
Clause 2: “Subsidy”
Amendment 2
Moved by
2: Clause 2, page 2, line 21, at end insert—
“(1A) No payment may be regarded as a subsidy if it is equally and freely available to all enterprises whose economic activity, to which the payment relates, is undertaken wholly or largely within the territory of the body making the payment.”
Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
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My Lords, I apologise for appearing to hog the Committee at this early stage. I will have a self-denying ordinance as things go forward, I promise. Amendments 2 and 3 are in my name and go to the heart of the use of subsidies as a legitimate tool for securing economic objectives. From the Minister’s remarks at Second Reading, it is clear that the Government accept that in some circumstances the payment of subsidies may be legitimate. Surely that must be right.

Let us take as an example the Covid crisis. If the payment of subsidies was necessary to enable a company to bring forward a vaccine more quickly, say, or to enable an adequate supply of face masks to be available for hospital and home care workers, if that is the only way of securing such socially necessary provision, no one in their right mind would oppose such payments being made. Equally, if subsidies were made to one company to give it an unfair advantage over another, that would clearly not be an acceptable use of public funds, unless it was to enable economic or social benefits to become available in a manner that would not have been possible by paying similar subsidies to other potential providers.

This brings us to the fundamental question of the circumstances in which the payment of subsidies is legitimate and who decides that that is the case. I do not pretend for one moment that we can define in legislation all the circumstances and eventualities in which a credible argument can be made for the use of subsidies, although there clearly needs to be transparency and the circumstances need to be defined in terms that can be appreciated by those who might want to supply goods or services for which subsidy payments may arise. This might be difficult to define in words that are both comprehensible and able to withstand scrutiny in the courts.

To make that process easier, I believe that it would be helpful if some of the principles on which a determination of the efficacy and appropriateness of subsidies could be defined in the Bill. If such a detailed approach is difficult—or, indeed, impossible in some circumstances—at the very least there should be some principles spelled out in legislation for the benefit of the Governments of the four nations of these islands and for the guidance of those involved in the provision of goods and services, who have the right to know the ground rules within which they operate.

Amendment 2 seeks to deal with a set of considerations that may well arise for Governments trying to operate within the framework of the Bill. For colleagues to appreciate the background against which I bring it forward, I draw the Committee’s attention to the way in which successive Governments in Wales have tried to tackle the endemic unemployment levels that have blighted Wales for most of the last century, consistently running at twice the level experienced in England. To tackle this, the Welsh Government have—absolutely rightly, to my mind—tried to ensure that public sector contracts for the provision of goods and services in Wales go, as far as possible, to contractors based in Wales or those that will make it their policy to employ people living in Wales to undertake the work.

Clearly, there has to be value for money and tender prices are a factor that cannot be ignored, but that is only one of several relevant factors. The best deal for the community as a whole is not necessarily ensured by insisting that tender prices are the only factor that determines where widgets must be purchased. Quality of product, security of supply, and aftersales service are absolutely legitimate considerations which may trump a pure price consideration.

There is also the effect on the local economy. It is worth noting that in pursuing a local sourcing policy, which clearly can also have significant environmental benefits by cutting unnecessary transport costs, the Welsh Government have succeeded in raising the level of local sourcing from under 35% to some 55% over the past 20 years. The target is to push that figure to 70%. To my mind, that is an absolutely valid approach. If sandwiches for Welsh hospitals can be made locally rather than brought in from Birmingham or London, they most certainly should be sourced locally, as should service provision contracts. There was a nonsense a few years ago when a contract for grass cutting in schools in Anglesey was apparently placed with a company in the east Midlands.

The net effect of this approach has been to reduce Welsh unemployment figures so that they now stand below the level in England for the first time in my lifetime. Activity rates have also increased.

I readily concede that this approach does not solve all our problems. The level of GDP per head of population remains stubbornly low, and I understand that this argument has to be confronted. The quality of work and the added value must also come into the equation. Our Governments, in Wales and Scotland as well as Westminster, must take these considerations on board when developing public policy.

In this amendment I seek to write into the Bill a provision that states that it is absolutely acceptable for Governments to seek to secure economic activity within the communities for which they have responsibility and that it is legitimate in some circumstances to pay subsidies to businesses that employ people within those communities and pay taxes to local government in those areas, and whose profits may circulate in those local economies.

I make it clear that this is not a block on tendering for contracts to provide goods and services for an area. Those who are primarily based away from that area should not be debarred, but surely it is necessary that when such decisions are made, consideration is given to whether companies are willing to locate an office in the areas offering subsidies, to purchase supplies from within those economies and to have a transparent policy of recruiting people in those areas, preferably to work within their communities.

My amendment states that no payment should

“be regarded as a subsidy”

for the purpose of this Bill

“if it is equally … available to all enterprises”

that undertake “economic activity” to which the subsidy relates “within the territory” of the governmental body making any such payment.

In his wind-up speech at Second Reading, the Minister stated that it would continue to be in order for a public authority to give subsidies if in doing so it is “addressing regional inequality”, so I hope that he will either accept the amendment or undertake to bring forward his own, either at the end of Committee or preferably on Report when it can be voted on. It may be that the wording of this amendment needs to be tightened and more focused. What I now seek is an indication as to whether the UK Government appreciate that other Governments must have their hands free to improve the economic well-being of their communities and that the judicious use of subsidies is a perfectly legitimate tool in trying to stimulate economic activity.

Briefly, Amendment 3 is different in nature but relates also to ensuring that Governments are not precluded by this Bill from making payments for the provision of local services by public bodies in their territory. There are many aspects of local services that may be provided by both public authorities and private contractors. One has to think only of care homes, refuse collection, recycling or highway maintenance to see areas where there could be arguments as to whether public authorities are subsidising activities in competition with the private sector.

My amendment is tabled to give the Minister an opportunity to state categorically that the Bill, when enacted, will not constrain public authorities from making such payments and to point out in the Bill where such safeguards are provided, if indeed they are. If they are not, we will need to return to these matters on Report. I believe I may be knocking on an open door with this amendment but I will listen to what the Minister has to say. I beg to move.

Viscount Chandos Portrait Viscount Chandos (Lab)
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My Lords, I support Amendments 2 and 3 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. With the agreement of the Committee, I shall speak to my Amendment 2A. My amendment would add just one word to Clause 2(2) and I will try to be commensurately brief.

Clause 2(2) lists examples by which financial assistance may be given, starting with

“a direct transfer of funds (such as grants or loans)”.

It does not purport to be exclusive or comprehensive, so why do I think it is important to add equity to the examples given of grants and loans? The guidance published last week, following Second Reading, includes the following:

“Subsidies can be provided in many different forms, including grants, soft-loans, loan guarantees, and tax breaks. Other forms, such as taking an equity stake in firms … may also constitute subsidies [to be insertedlink to future section on determining whether an intervention is a subsidy].”


That prospective insertion of a link to a future section—further evidence of the Government’s ill-preparedness for a Bill that they have known for months, if not years, was needed—gives a clue as to why it is important to add equity to the examples given in the Bill.

A grant from central or local government is self-evidently a subsidy. It is relatively easy—not totally simple, but not rocket science either—to gauge whether a loan is, for the borrower, more favourable than market terms and hence has a subsidy embedded within it. A loan will ordinarily carry the requirement to pay regular interest and, by final maturity, to have repaid all the principal amount. The arithmetic is pretty simple. Equity is much more difficult to analyse as the future returns are unpredictable. The risk of loss is total and the potential returns unlimited. Professional venture capital and other investors can take strongly divergent views about the prospects for any one company, which explains the huge dispersion of returns between different funds.

I acknowledge that it can be difficult to say whether an equity investment is made on market, and hence unsubsidised, terms. A judgment has to be made about the share of the company concerned received for the investment made; the speed with which a decision to invest is made; the proportion of the funding contributed; any liquidation preference attached to different classes of shares; and a whole range of other conditions, whether imposed or waived. Even if private sector investment is made pari passu with the public sector’s commitment, that may not be prima facie evidence that the public sector’s investment is on market terms, since the commitment, particularly if as a significant cornerstone investment, may in itself attract private sector investment in a way that could disadvantage competitor companies.

16:45
I emphasised at Second Reading that I support selective, targeted and rigorously analysed public sector investments in companies, particularly those that are highly innovative, but it is essential that this is done transparently and fairly, which means that public authorities must disclose on a timely basis any equity investment made containing an implicit subsidy. The very complexity of equity investing means that, for clarity, it should be included as an example in the Bill. The choice of examples is symbolic, as well as bringing emphasis and clarity. It should reduce the likelihood of transactions being overlooked and unreported, and there would be no conceivable downside of including it as an example in the Bill rather than relying solely on the guidance note.
Lord German Portrait Lord German (LD)
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My Lords, I want to speak to these amendments because we have reached the point in the Bill when we are looking at the architecture for the future. Clause 2 sets out very clearly the fundamentals that we need to understand. I seek to ask the Government whether the subsidy regime proposed here is more or less permissive, and whether it is more or less bureaucratic, than what we have had before.

I am grateful to the Minister for letting us have more information and some draft regulations and draft guidance, but the problem that the devolved Administrations have is summed up in the statement in paragraph 5 of Streamlined Routes: Objectives, Operation and Next Steps:

“The Devolved Administrations have also had the opportunity to share their views on Streamlined Routes to support their development.”


I am often asked to share my views and very often I am told that the Government do not agree with them. I am sure that that is very common. Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether there has been any accommodation of these views when they have been shared and whether any changes have been made. It would be interesting to see that happen.

My fundamental point is whether the scheme’s architecture is more or less permissive than what we had before. The situation is very different for Wales, of course, because we received the largest amount of European money of anywhere in the United Kingdom over a sustained period. Only two things mattered in terms of the regime itself, as opposed to how it was dealt with: there were subsidies—money and cash—and there were rules on which the subsidies operated. The Government’s own words to us in the Chamber, if they are to believed, were that Wales would not suffer, pound for pound, any less in the money it received than from the European schemes. Clearly, that is not true yet.

My first question to the Minister is: when will the money be received? It clearly has not been yet. Can he repeat the commitment that, pound for pound, Wales will not suffer? We could get that side of the subsidy regime out of the way. However, I suspect that some of us might have been misled in our thinking over the promise that money would be available. I hope that the Minister, on a day when we have been told that we may have been misled about promises put to us, can set the record straight for us right now.

Leaving aside the subsidies themselves—we have heard a little bit but we do not yet know whether there will be cash on the table—we now turn to the rules for them. I had the opportunity to be deeply involved in setting up one six-year period of the European funding for Wales. The way in which it was brought about was interesting. We had to secure an operational programme with the European Union; that programme was broad but very detailed and extensive. When that happened, it gave us, for six years, the rules by which we could operate and understand how to deal with the problems in our country.

The direct comparison now is between the operational programmes, where the EU determined after extensive negotiation, and the other, streamlined schemes, several of which we have in front of us. That comparison includes how these might work and which is more permissive. The former was for six years. It was very broad. You knew where you were. The latter is a tighter constraint around a specific topic. One of the obvious criticisms from the documentation we have received is that there is going to be a whole lot of narrow, siloed regimes. It will be extremely difficult for public authorities and anybody else to find their way not only through those regimes but to the interconnecting places.

An obvious example of that concerns the general conditions in the innovation scheme. I do not think anybody would disagree that a UK subsidy regime should not compensate for costs that the beneficiary would have funded in the absence of any subsidy—that is a fundamental. So why is it in this document? It may also be slightly different in another one; we do not know because we do not have the extent of it before us. Essentially, what we needed was an overarching set of rules that were clear enough to be in the Bill or, alternatively, in any regulation that we see in advance. Perhaps the Minister could tell us, in saying what a regime should look like, where we can get the specifics of these overarching things and the subsidy regimes that will take place.

The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would return the decision-making clearly to the Welsh Government; it is quite clear that, under these powers, they will lose that. One of the suggestions that has been made—it will come up later in our debate, of course—is that we should have an agreed framework of activity within which there would be an ability to do things in a much more free-flowing way. It is absolutely essential that authorities intervene in areas of deprivation. If you do not do that, you certainly do not use the words that begin with an L and a U, which the Government are so keen on. We certainly cannot bring lifestyles to a better place if we do not target where public money should go.

Overlaid with the broad set of rules that I have just talked about, including on such things as displacement and the fact that people cannot be compensated where they would have done it for themselves, we need to understand whether these rules will provide a level playing field. The understanding I get from my reading of them is that we will continue to have an uneven playing field and one on which politics will play a far bigger role than the clear set of understandings that there were in the past between, for example, the Welsh Government and the European Commission, about what one could do. Can the Minister explain why this scheme is an improvement and why it is proportionate between the Governments of this country? The suspicion is that one Government are using their powers to disadvantage another.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Portrait Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
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My Lords, I will speak even more briefly than did the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, in expressing a modicum of support for him. It is up to the Minister to explain why equity is not included rather than for the noble Viscount to prove the case for including equity; it seems a bit of an omission. We read today about the failure of the British Business Bank to do well on some of its investments. We have also had the publicity about the Covid loans that have not been recovered. Why do I mention the British Business Bank? Because we have seen a whole series of equity injections by this Government that have not always had an overall rationale.

The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, referred to the spread of returns from equity investment and how different investors would take a different view of the future, but the reason often advanced by government for direct investment is what is termed “market failure”, and I see that the phrase “market failure” is referred to in the Bill. Unfortunately, market failure is a convenient get-out for Governments wishing to subsidise a particular entity. The very fact that Governments provide direct investment, which I know the noble Viscount favours in a way that I would not, often disguises the fact that there is a subsidy. They say that it is because of market failure and they want it to be on market terms, but, too often, it turns out just to be an implicit subsidy. I agree with the noble Viscount that equity, particularly from a public sector grant-making organisation, can often conceal a degree of subsidy. I hope that careful consideration will be given to the point that he has rightly raised.

Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
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My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 2 and 3 and then Amendment 2A, as they seem to associate with each other.

In the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord German, the nub of the question is: what is a subsidy and what is it not? I see Amendment 2 from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, as trying to unearth that definition. Later, we will discuss Clause 11, which allows certain definitions to be defined by affirmative regulation rather than appearing in the Bill. These definitions are:

“subsidy, or subsidy scheme, of interest”,

and

“subsidy, or subsidy scheme, of particular interest”.

This is the Subsidy Control Bill and it would be enormously helpful if the Government would put in the Bill what they seek to control because, at this stage, they have not revealed their hand. In this amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seeks to delineate where a subsidy starts and finishes: the territory, as he puts it. This is a moot point and a key issue that we will talk about later. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, talked about market failure. We need to understand what the Government understand as “the market” in the first place to delineate where a failure may or may not have occurred. Hereby lies the issue.

In a letter to my noble friend Lord Purvis, the Minister sought to help and, perhaps, to clarify. He replied:

“The geographic scope of a market depends on the goods, services and activity in question—which means geographic scope can vary.”


I think that that flies in the face of some of the words that we heard just now from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. The letter continues:

“A key factor is the distance over which these goods or services can be supplied”—


the sandwiches of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, perhaps—or

“the preference of customers”.

I understand the issue about distance—I can get that—but to include the preference of customers is potentially specious.

To take an international example rather than a Welsh one—although, of course, Welsh is international, if I am speaking from England—there was no market for Spanish-grown strawberries until such time as Spanish-grown strawberries were imported to this country. Then there was a market, because customers showed a market preference. So at the outset of a subsidy there may be no customer preference because there is no product for the customers to prefer. Some time after the six months have expired and the subsidy is open to challenge, the product appears on the market. How is customer preference to be applied retrospectively to subsidies as the market goes forward? I do not think that the issue of customer preference is easy to define, understand or control. If the Minister stands by the words in the letter to my noble friend, we need a much clearer understanding of how that customer preference role will play out. Not only do we need to understand geography, but we need to understand the customers.

17:00
Amendment 3 concerns financial assistance for public services. My understanding is that that financial assistance may go to public or private providers. I am a simple soul and I always try to resolve something out into an example. The only example I can think of—I am sure there are others; I am treading on the territory of my noble friend Lady Randerson here, so I am in danger—is in the area of transport services. If there is public subsidy of a transport link, let us imagine that one privately owned bus company receives a subsidy and another bus company does not. Where does this stand? But it extends further than that. Imagine there is also a train line that covers the same route and the train service does not receive a subsidy but the bus service does. How is all this resolved within the very small number of words and complete lack of clarity in the Bill? There is a lot of work to do. By the way, all of these provide a public benefit but they do it to a different level. So how does the public benefit aspect of this get played out and does it excuse the disproportionate subsidising of one service versus another? I think that is an example that works but I am sure that your Lordships will find another that we can play round with.
I commend Amendment 2A in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos. It is a shame that it was tabled so late—that is not a criticism; I would have co-signed it if it had come in earlier. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. As I recall, at Second Reading the Minister avoided giving a detailed response to questions around the example of OneWeb, which a number of noble Lords brought up. There were two such questions. First, would this sort of investment be included in the constraints of the Bill? Secondly, what about the issue where a Permanent Secretary insists on being directed to deliver a subsidy? It seems to me that there are certain legal issues around this that are not handled here. The answers to those questions that were not forthcoming would be very much appreciated now.
The noble Viscount’s amendment helps to clarify the first part of this question around subsidies. I remind the Minister that the Government are already very active in the market—more active, I think, than many of us can remember a Government being for a long time. I will focus in on UK Government Investments. In its own words:
“UKGI provides expertise in asset sales, interventions, ALB set-up”—
the establishment of arm’s-length bodies—
“incubation and governance, market intelligence and analysis, transaction execution and larger scale corporate negotiations amongst others.”
Most of these services, if offered to a private sector company, could be, and probably are, subsidies to its activity or could be seen as such—versus other companies which are seeking that advice and getting it through the big banks or somewhere else, for which we all know they have to pay a great deal of money.
Furthermore, as we know, UKGI is holding the Government’s shareholding in a number of businesses. These businesses are themselves competing with private sector businesses as it stands. The banking, letter and package delivery, transport and mapping sectors are all areas which are competed with. There is competition from a private sector point of view with a public sector company.
Finally, since March 2021 UKGI has overseen nearly £100 billion-worth of borrowing to over 230 companies across the country. This, together with the activities of the British Business Bank, has led to a degree of corporate financial activity on a scale unseen, I suggest, for generations. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, referred to that as well. It seems inconceivable that some of those loans will not be converted to equity at some point and I would like the Minister to explain, in the event that they are, how that sits within the constraints of the Bill.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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My Lords, I have very little to add to what other noble Lords have said. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Chandos for Amendments 2, 2A and 3. As has been said, they go to the heart of the Bill. Clause 2 is titled “Subsidy” and lays out the effect and explanation of what a subsidy is or can be. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has come up with an interesting means of looking at protecting the devolved authorities’ interests by making it clear, as we have heard, that certain forms of payments would not be classified as subsidies and would therefore fall outside the control and requirements of the Bill.

The amendment from my noble friend Lord Chandos raises an interesting point in relation to the illustrative documents that have just been released. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, my noble friend’s amendment was tabled late but that was because the guidance papers were released so late. If some of the guidance and regulations had been shared and published earlier, some of our colleagues in the elected Chamber may well have been able to pick up and dig into some of these issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, touched on the use of subsidies as a legitimate tool for securing economic benefit when done correctly, but also when done transparently. This is one of the fundamental issues we will come on to in later amendments. The big difference from European state aid is obviously that an agreement had to be reached before state aid was brought in. With this system, and this is one of the benefits of it, the subsidy can be brought in very quickly beforehand. But that creates a huge dilemma if the information on the subsidy is not transparent, and if there is no proper opportunity to analyse and challenge it. That is why we will be going into far more detail on this.

Tidying up some of these issues and getting them into the Bill, rather than in secondary legislation and regulations, would help to move it into a far better position. With that, I look forward to the noble Baroness’s response to the issues, especially the one raised by my noble friend Lord Chandos on why equity cannot be added straightforwardly. The Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, has tabled a number of government amendments. It would be great if we could do some of the tidying up as we move through Committee.

Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist Portrait Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
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My Lords, again, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for tabling his amendments, and to all noble Lords for participating in the debate.

Clause 2, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, is the cornerstone of the new subsidy control regime as it sets out the definition of a subsidy for the purposes of the Bill. The definition consists of a four-limb test, and all four limbs must be satisfied for a financial measure to be considered a subsidy. I also draw the Committee’s attention to Clauses 3 to 8, all of which are necessary to understand the definition of “subsidy”. I believe that those provisions collectively provide sufficient clarity and legal certainty to ensure that all public authorities can give subsidies with confidence. We will provide guidance on this matter as the Bill comes into force.

In response to my noble friend Lord Lamont, I believe the Bill sets out a series of overarching principles that provide a level playing field for all public authorities in the UK. The Bill is not a framework for funding; therefore, in response to my noble friend, spending decisions are of course for the Chancellor. It is a set of rules that all public authorities must follow in their decision-making when they give a subsidy or make a scheme. I do not recognise the criticism that it is too streamlined or too narrow, or that it will not be accessible to the devolved Administrations and to other public authorities outside Westminster. The streamlined subsidy schemes that we create will be beneficial but also entirely voluntary for public authorities to use. I note too that we have adopted helpful suggestions from the devolved Administrations for the illustrative Subsidy Control (Subsidies and Schemes of Interest or Particular Interest) Regulations on the treatment of rescue and restructuring subsidies to ailing businesses, as well as in relation to the identification and selection of sectors of interest.

Amendment 2, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would exclude from the definition of a subsidy financial assistance offered by a public authority to all enterprises operating wholly or largely within its territory. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it is of the utmost importance that public authorities are responsible for the financial assistance that they provide within the areas for which they are accountable, and that when a devolved Administration—or, for that matter, a local authority—design a scheme that is general to enterprises in their territory, subsidies should not be specific. Of course, those subsidies should be designed in support of the economy and community for which the public authority is responsible in order to address market failures or issues of disadvantage. I am pleased to inform the noble Lord that that is what Clause 2 provides, with particular reference to the notion of what constitutes a specific subsidy in Clause 2(1)(b) and Clause 4. I am grateful to him for raising this important point.

The requirement that is relevant to the noble Lord’s amendment is that a subsidy must be specific. In order to be specific, Clause 2(1)(c) provides that it must benefit one or more enterprises over one or more other enterprises with regard to the production of goods or the provision of services. When determining whether a subsidy benefits one or more enterprises over others, it is necessary to consider what constitutes the reference framework for that subsidy by reference to the legal basis for that subsidy, the authority giving the subsidy and how it is financed, in order to determine who is in the same legal and factual position.

Where a UK-wide power is conferred on a UK Minister, the reference framework is the whole of the UK, while a subsidy that will benefit only enterprises in a specific part of the UK—such as Wales or, indeed, London—will meet the definition of a specific subsidy. However, when an Administration covering a discrete area, such as a devolved Administration, make a subsidy under the powers conferred on them, the reference framework will be the territory of that Administration.

Therefore, in the case of Wales, for example, a disadvantaged workers’ subsidy scheme that is available equally to all enterprises in Wales will in most cases not be specific because the subsidy will not favour any enterprise in Wales over another enterprise in Wales in the absence of factors limiting the availability of the subsidy. However, a disadvantaged workers’ subsidy by the Welsh Government limited to enterprises in Newport, or which was otherwise limited in availability, would be a specific subsidy because it favoured enterprises in Newport over other enterprises in Wales. It can also be said, with reference to Clause 4(2), that the notion of the reference framework is inherent in the design of subsidies by the devolved Administrations because they can act only in pursuance of their devolved competences.

Similar provisions are made in relation to taxation in Clause 4 to ensure that, where a devolved Administration are acting autonomously in relation to a devolved tax or a variation of a national tax, there will not be a subsidy if the scheme of taxation does not contain elements that are specific to their areas of responsibility. Acting autonomously includes having the competence to set the tax and being responsible for the fiscal consequences of setting the tax at the chosen level.

I hope to persuade the noble Lord, therefore, that the discretions he wishes to maintain for subsidies that are general to enterprise in Wales—and not confined to certain enterprises in Wales—are inherent in the general principles in the Bill, which are derived from the TCA, without need for a specific amendment.

17:15
Amendment 2A proposes adding equity investment to the examples of direct transfers of funds which may be considered a subsidy if the other conditions are met. Clause 2(2) already includes two examples of types of direct transfers of funds, which I believe illustrate clearly what is meant. A grant is a good example of a direct transfer of funds which will almost always be a subsidy, assuming it is given to an enterprise and meets the other conditions. A loan is a good example of a direct transfer of funds that may or may not be a subsidy, because it is of course possible for both commercial providers and public authorities to provide a loan at a market rate, but also possible for public authorities to provide a loan on favourable terms to subsidise the borrowing enterprise.
An equity investment is clearly a direct transfer of funds under Clause 2(2)(a) if it comes from the resources of a public authority, and it is not necessary to specify it. Governments may choose to make equity investments in companies on commercial terms, in which case there is no economic advantage conferred, or they may do so on favourable terms that meet the other limbs of the definition set out in Clause 2(1), in which case it will be a subsidy. A conversion of loan to equity, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, raises, would not be a loophole here. In response to his further questions on customer preference, in relation to the letter written to his noble friend by my noble friend Lord Callanan, I will write with further details.
I am happy to commit to ensure that our guidance is absolutely clear on the point that equity investment may be considered a subsidy. I note that the current guidance on our international subsidy control commitments addresses this. It suggests that a public authority making a financial contribution in the form of an equity investment will need to ask itself if the terms of that investment are more favourable than the recipient could have received from a commercial investor. However, I do not believe the Bill is served by listing every possible type of subsidy; indeed, attempting an exhaustive list could be counterproductive, implying that measures not listed would not be considered subsidies. The examples given in the Bill provide, in my view, helpful illustration of the concepts involved, which clearly apply also to equity investments.
Amendment 3, also proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would appear to carve out financial assistance to public bodies with responsibility for the provision of public services. To that effect, I would argue that the amendment is unnecessary. The second and third limbs of the definition of a subsidy set out in Clause 2 establish that a subsidy must confer an advantage on one or more enterprises, and that it must be specific—that is to say, it benefits one or more enterprises over others. In the majority of cases, therefore, a subsidy will be given from a public authority to an enterprise, rather than to a public body. Ordinary public funding, such as that provided to a government department or local authority that is used to procure or directly provide a public service is not a subsidy.
An enterprise is further defined in Clause 7 as a person or group of persons
“engaged in an economic activity that entails offering goods or services on a market”.
If the activity is carried out for a purpose that is not economic, it does not meet that test. It is possible for an entity to be considered an enterprise for some of its activities and not others. It is therefore hypothetically possible that financial assistance given to a public body might be classed as a subsidy because the public body in fact meets the definition of an enterprise in respect of the particular economic activity being subsidised. I cannot comment on a specific case but can envisage a public body, perhaps with charitable status, that both provides a publicly funded public service and has a commercial arm. If the commercial arm received specific financial assistance, that could be considered a subsidy, while funding for the public service it provides would be something separate. In those specific circumstances, it is appropriate that the subsidy control requirements would apply. It is right that the test applies to the activity being subsidised, rather than providing a loophole based on the characteristics of the recipient.
I also take the opportunity to explain that the Bill sets out specific rules to facilitate the provision of public services where they are indeed delivered by enterprises operating for economic purposes. That could include, for example, rural bus services or social housing. These services are known as services of public economic interest, or SPEIs. Such public services are important to deliver but would not otherwise be delivered by enterprises at the necessary level without subsidisation. Clause 38 sets out an exemption for SPEIs from the subsidy control requirements for up to £725,000 over three years, which is higher than the £315,000 minimal financial assistance exemption for general subsidies. Clause 29 sets out specific provisions for higher-value SPEIs, which ensure that those subsidies can be given in a way that protects UK markets and allows essential public services to be provided.
I believe that it is an important principle for our subsidy control regime that a public authority may not simply write a blank cheque to an enterprise, even where the goal is the provision of public services on which its constituents are dependent. This would be inconsistent with the aims of the domestic subsidy control regime and could also cause the United Kingdom to contravene its international obligations.
Finally, I apologise to noble Lords for the perceived lateness of the publication of the illustrative products last week; it was perhaps later than ideal. I welcome further engagement and comment from noble Lords on these before the versions are made in due course. For these reasons, I humbly request that the noble Lords do not press these amendments.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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I do not think their lateness was perceived—it was real—but that is not why I rise. I go back to a point the Minister made on my noble friend Lord Chandos’s amendment. Under Clause 2 on “Subsidy”, she said that subsection (2) is not an exhaustive list. That is the subsection where my noble friend was looking to add “equity” after “grants”. It may not be an exhaustive list, but lines 23 and 24 say:

“For the purposes of this Act, the means by which financial assistance may be given include”.


If Her Majesty’s Government are not going to add anything in, can they at least clarify that the list in paragraphs (a) to (e) is not exhaustive? Am I just being a bit too pernickety?

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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Thank you. If the Minister wishes to write to us, that is fine. I am sure we will come back to this.

Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist Portrait Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
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I think I said that an equity investment is still considered a direct transfer of funds from one entity to another. The whole point of not putting in an exhaustive list is to avoid worry about what you leave out of a list, rather than what you have in it. I believe this is already covered by the Bill.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to everybody who has participated in this short debate. I am not sure whether the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, is happy with the response he got, but no doubt there will be opportunities to pursue that further. I also noted the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. There is clearly an issue here that needs some further consideration.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord German, for his contribution. He was Minister for Economic Development in the Welsh Government. Was it 20 years ago?

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was a long time ago but clearly the noble Lord learned many lessons, not least the one he repeated: to stress that we in Wales received considerable benefit from the European Union and that there is a need for a guarantee that, pound for pound, we will not miss out from the changes taking place. That is a bit on a tangent from the issues we are debating; none the less, it is a well-made point and needs to be well received. Hopefully that will be the case. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord German, on his point about the Government spelling out in greater detail the rules coming through that will provide a level playing field. Those are very much needed.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his interesting contribution, as always. He asked what a subsidy is. That really goes to the heart of the Bill, does it not? It is clear from the detailed response we had from the Minister that it will require quite a lot of exercising.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, again emphasised the need for greater clarity and transparency. That is what is coming out of this. I thought that the Minister’s responses recognised in many ways that the issues exist, but she believes that they are already covered in the Bill. We are going to need to press those aspects further as we go through the Bill. It is essential that the Bill is understood not only by those of us who work in the world of politics but, even more so, by those at the sharp end of business and industry who have to live with the consequences of it. They need transparency, and they need to be sure that they are not being enticed down a road where there may not be any hope of a satisfactory outcome. As the Bill progresses and we probe more aspects of it, I hope that that light will start shining through and that, if necessary, there will be appropriate briefings outside Committee on any further thinking or clarity that the Government can give to these issues.

I believe that the matters raised in my two amendments are relevant. The Minister confirmed that, to all intents and purposes, what is covered in Amendment 3 is covered by the Bill. That is fine; I said that I might be knocking on an open door. I am grateful for that, but I have no doubt that we will need to return to some aspects of the more general debate we have had. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.
Amendments 2A and 3 not moved.
Clause 2 agreed.
Clauses 3 to 9 agreed.
Amendment 4
Moved by
4: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“The subsidy strategy
(1) The subsidy strategy is a strategy made by regulations made by the Secretary of State which outlines how, in the opinion of the Secretary of State—(a) subsidies should be used by public authorities to support the delivery of an industrial strategy,(b) subsidies should contribute to progress towards meeting the target in section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008 (carbon target for 2050), and(c) the subsidy control scheme established under this Act should interact with, or be otherwise influenced by, other public schemes including (but not limited to)—(i) a UK Shared Prosperity Fund, and(ii) the Levelling Up Fund.(2) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative procedure.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks the creation of a clear subsidy strategy, to be laid before and approved by Parliament. Such a strategy would set out how Her Majesty’s Government expects subsidies to be used to support a wider industrial strategy and progress towards the 2050 net zero target. It would also outline how the new subsidy control scheme works alongside other initiatives including the Shared Prosperity Fund and Levelling Up Fund.
Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
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My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 4 in the name of my noble friend Lord McNicol. As the explanatory statement says, it

“seeks the creation of a clear subsidy strategy, to be laid before and approved by Parliament. Such a strategy would set out how Her Majesty’s Government expects subsidies to be used to support a wider industrial strategy and progress towards the 2050 net zero target. It would also outline how the new subsidy control scheme works alongside … the Shared Prosperity Fund and Levelling Up Fund.”

I am pleased also to speak in support of Amendments 5 and 25 in my noble friend’s name, and Amendments 4A and 5A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale.

I will preface my comments by setting some context. The real desire to seek to improve the provisions in the Bill comes from a place of ambition for the economy of the whole United Kingdom, unlocking potential while recognising regional inequalities. As we have heard in the debate thus far, we are approaching this issue, as always, in a spirit of transparency, fairness and purpose. As we know, at Second Reading a number of noble Lords voiced their concerns that this new subsidy control system does not appear to be linked to a wider strategy, whether that is delivering strands of an industrial strategy—does one still exist?—or supporting the Prime Minister’s levelling-up agenda and the net-zero strategy, which I mentioned and which we will come on to in debates on later amendments.

These are interesting and potentially stressful times for authorities across the country, as new funding mechanisms and policy initiatives are implemented and the realities of Brexit become more apparent. I confess that I believe Her Majesty’s Government have somewhat dragged their feet on implementing their long-promised UK shared prosperity fund. The early indications are that many of the biggest recipients of the European Regional Development Fund are not only losing out but are likely to lose out to the tune of tens of millions of pounds a year.

17:30
I refer noble Lords to the Treasury Select Committee report into the Autumn Budget and spending review, which estimates that the UK shared prosperity fund is worth just 60% of the EU structural fund that it is replacing: the EU structural fund, worth £2.5 billion, is being replaced with a £1.5 billion UK shared prosperity fund. It is difficult to come to terms with the estimate that, even when we include the levelling-up fund across the north of England with the shared prosperity fund, the north of England alone stands to lose up to £300 million a year. This translates across the country. These are factors that we are to take extremely seriously if we are to realise our ambition for the country’s prospects.
Of course, we are speaking in the week that we expect to see Her Majesty’s Government’s levelling-up White Paper, but it is not clear that that document will offer the coherent vision we have been waiting for since the 2019 election campaign. I hope no one will take this the wrong way, but there is a joke that if you have half a dozen lawyers in the room, you are likely to hear a dozen opinions on a given subject; levelling up feels very much like that.
That is why the strategies envisaged in Amendments 4 and 5 are so important. Amendment 5 would amend the common interest principle outlined in Schedule 1 to explicitly include reference to
“areas of relative economic deprivation”.
As my noble friend Lord McNicol said at Second Reading, subsidies can have a transformational impact on the communities they target, but there is currently nothing in the Bill that would prioritise hard-up communities over those that enjoy relative privilege. We understand Her Majesty’s Government wanting to move away from the EU assisted areas map, but we need something as a replacement, based on dialogue and consensus. Warm words will not deliver the change that many areas need, and it is hard to believe warm words when we look at how the early rounds of levelling-up funding have been allocated. We had the very unfortunate experience over the weekend of the Government announcing figures that gave the impression of new funding to specific areas of the country but which then, under close examination, had to be retracted. There is a real issue of trust around at the moment. As we heard earlier, the Covid loans only add to that perception.
Amendment 6 from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, highlights the need for political agreement between the constituent parts of the UK if we are to avoid some of these issues being left to the CMA and the CAT to resolve. I was very struck by the noble and learned Lord’s comments at Second Reading about these being political judgments. Once again, as with the UK Internal Market Bill and other pieces of legislation, it feels as though the Government are rushing ahead without a clear plan. If the Minister has one, there should be no problem in laying it before Parliament for approval. If there is no plan, the new system could prove to be all the things we want to avoid: inefficient, ineffective and divisive.
Lord Ravensdale Portrait Lord Ravensdale (CB)
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My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 4A and 5A in my name and first apologise to noble Lords for their late tabling. I thank Jonathan Branton, a subsidy control expert at DWF Law, for his assistance with my remarks today.

As I said at Second Reading, for me the key aspect that is missing from the Bill is how it will assist disadvantaged areas and how it fits with the levelling-up agenda. I see the Bill as being a central part of how levelling up can be delivered through targeted subsidies into disadvantaged areas. What business across the UK really needs is clear visibility and legal certainty about which areas will benefit from financial assistance, through an evidence-based mechanism. Then the market can get on and do its job of driving investment into those left-behind areas of the UK and deliver on levelling up.

I listened carefully to what the Minister said at Second Reading: that the Bill gives public authorities the flexibility to grant subsidies where they are best served to support economic growth in local places. At present, however, it does not give businesses clear visibility of which areas in the UK will benefit from increased help. There is nothing to differentiate between a wealthy area and a disadvantaged one.

Having a commitment in the Bill on levelling up could not be more timely, with the levelling-up White Paper being due for publication imminently. We have had continued debate over the last two years about what levelling up actually means, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said. If the Government could point to a clear strategy within the Bill to deliver on it and prioritise business investment into disadvantaged communities, that would send a powerful signal about their intent to those communities across the UK and indeed to the business community.

My Amendment 4A is in similar vein to Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, which I also support. It proposes an areas of disadvantage subsidy strategy, which would need to be laid before Parliament within six months of this Act being passed. Critically, that would need to involve defining what a disadvantaged area was. Under the previous subsidy regime, we had a map defining assisted areas. That mechanism was not perfect; there are a number of issues with attempting to draw on a map which areas would receive preferential treatment. Previous maps were developed by Eurostat, but we now have the opportunity to develop a map that is right for the UK and uses the wealth of economic data available at a local level. For example, I am co-chair of the Midlands Engine APPG. The midlands engine encompasses many of the most deprived areas in the UK and is home to around 11 million people. Our regional observatory produces a wealth of economic data that could be used in the development of such a map.

As I highlight in my amendment, a map is not necessarily required here. A list of agreed economic indicators could do the same job and perhaps provide a more flexible route to defining a disadvantaged area in the context of subsidy control. Again, it would give business the clarity needed on where subsidies would be available to drive inward investment.

My Amendment 5A would simply serve to make Amendment 4A operable, as Part 1 of the Bill deals only with definitions, by making reference to the strategy in Schedule 1.

In conclusion, the way the Bill is drafted, if a manufacturer were deciding whether to locate in Scunthorpe or Surrey, or deciding between Bilston and Buckinghamshire, there is nothing to advantage the former locations. The legal certainty that would come from implementation of an areas of disadvantage subsidy strategy would be attractive for many organisations and businesses considering offers from different areas, and would therefore make a key contribution to levelling up across the UK. I hope the Minister will agree with the logic here and I look forward to her response. In particular, I would like to get her views on how the Bill will support levelling up from a national perspective. When a business is deciding where to locate, what clear visibility of subsidy support in disadvantaged areas will there be to inform its investment decisions?

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Portrait Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)
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My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 6. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and to my noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead for their support of the amendment. It tries to grapple with the areas that have been raised so far, but it must be remembered that the Bill applies to agriculture as well, and that makes the task much more complicated. It seems to me that the Bill provides in Schedule 1, that it is possible to have a subsidy that addresses an equity rationale, such as social difficulties or distribution concerns.

It is unfortunate that the word “equity” was used, because we used it in a completely different sense in our earlier debate. That must be one really good reason, if I may say so with respect, for not adopting the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos—but I did not mean that as a throwaway line for the Minister. We will need to know what it means, and it is very important, it seems to me, to grapple now with the question of how we take into account the need for levelling up, or providing subsidies, where regional help is necessary in agriculture and fish. I think this is ultimately a political question—I will return to that in a moment—and the worst possible thing to do would be to allow independent bodies, particularly judicial bodies such as the CAT, to be embroiled in political decision-making.

It seems clear to me that we must have some form of agreement or definition of what are the criteria, or a map if need be, by which we can apply levelling up. As I understand it, we could look at GDP per person, which is the European Union method. We could look at GDP per employee. We could look at household income, and could then dream up—I do not mean that disrespectfully because it was no doubt carefully considered when it was done—a broad economic index that takes into account productivity, skills, unemployment rates, population density, employment, et cetera. We must be very clear how a business, or Ministers giving agricultural subsidies, can direct those subsidies according to some metrics that have a UK-wide basis. Is that something that can be done?

My concern here arises out of the criticism that has been made—I do not want to go into the merits of the criticism—of the way the social prosperity fund has had its index looked at. It must, it seems to me, ultimately be a political decision to decide what are the factors that go into making disadvantages which need to be addressed for a levelling up. This is not something a court should do; it is a political question and, for the sake of the courts, we should not be shunting political decisions to a judicial body, or an independent body such as the CMA.

That is the first proposition: this is a political question and it should be resolved politically. There are two ways of doing that. The first way and, I argue, by far the best way is to do it is by agreement in a common framework.

17:45
As economic development, agriculture and fisheries are highly devolved issues, it should be possible for the four Governments—there may be a difficulty with Northern Ireland, but I think we ought to leave that on one side until the issue of the two regimes is more carefully analysed—to make some detailed agreement, and I have suggested a common framework, about the principles applicable to the delineation of areas, by which I do not necessarily mean a map, and the kind of area you could constitute. Obviously, if you pick a particular area and take GDP, the size or geographical delineation of it will make a difference to the result. It is important that this bears some relationship to the levelling-up fund, because you cannot see those as two different aspects. The Governments of Scotland and Wales will want to say, “Some money ought to come from money that is not ours; the rest comes from ours”, but there ought to be a common set of principles which enable the Governments, whether they be in London, Cardiff or Edinburgh, to agree which areas are economically in disadvantage from the perspective of both agriculture and industrial development.
The alternative is to do this in some other way. It seems a long way down the line at the moment, but we shall no doubt get to the clause that concerns the use of guidance. It is a matter of principle that guidance is not binding on the CMA or the CAT. How do the Government propose that this extremely difficult political issue be dealt with? There is no regulation-making power, so it cannot be that, and the guidance is not binding, because it cannot be binding on the CMA or the CAT. Although the Minister is entitled to make definitions of meanings, that is only guidance; it is not law. If you leave this, first, to the Competition and Markets Authority and its report and, ultimately, to the CAT, it will have to decide what is meant by those words and equity rationale and how it is proper to constitute a set of metrics by which you can define them.
I do not think it is fair to leave it to the courts or the CMA to do that; politicians ought to grapple with this issue—either, as would be my preference, through a common framework or by some other method that produces a clear definition of what is permitted and how these areas are to be defined.
Baroness Sheehan Portrait Baroness Sheehan (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 4 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds, for her comprehensive introduction. I shall add just a couple of points. I particularly enjoyed the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, in his introduction to his amendment, and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas. They illustrate clearly why the Bill is lacking in detail and clarity, and why Amendment 4, to which I put my name, is totally necessary.

The letter from the Minister last week gave us some hope that, even six months on from when the Bill started its parliamentary progress in the other place, we would have greater clarity and detail on what is meant by the terms used in the Bill—to go back to basics. However, other than broad sums of money around which a subsidy, a subsidy of interest or a subsidy of particular interest may be defined, we have very little—apart from a promise of more detail to come. Even the sums attached to those definitions are liable to change, we are told, so we really are none the wiser.

The referral criteria for the subsidy advice unit—the SAU—relating to a subsidy of interest or a subsidy of particular interest tell us very little. In any case, we are told that the SAU’s report will be non-binding on public authorities, regardless of whether the referral is voluntary or mandatory. This leaves public authorities with very little guidance, and a next-step referral to the CAT is really more draconian than it need be had they been given sufficient criteria before making their applications.

The draft statutory instrument, which the Government published last week, was supposed to shed light on their thinking. It is helpful in some respects but we all know how a statutory instrument can be structured. It leaves too much to the imagination; there are too many gaps which will be filled later. Instead of clarifying what we already have, in fact it introduces a new term of a “sensitive sector”, which we are told will be defined later by an SI. I would be grateful if the Minister could shed some light on that today.

I found the statements on the streamlined routes very helpful. They seem to provide some clue as to the sort of framework that might be applied but, yet again, there are too many gaps. Too much is left to be filled in in the future, when those details are required in the present. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said, the Government want us to take much on trust but trust in the Government is in very short supply at the moment. Those streamlined routes for clean heat and for research, development and innovation are helpful. It seems that some of the fundamentals of those illustrations can be put into the Bill. At least, it would be useful to know the timeframe within which we can expect to see further illustrations. It would be really useful to see a streamlined route, for example—the Minister is coughing; I hope he is okay—for fulfilling their policy of better energy efficiency in the domestic sector.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, that a clear subsidy strategy needs to be laid out within the Bill, setting out how the Government expect subsidies to be used to provide a wider industrial strategy and progress towards the 2050 net-zero target. Importantly, it would also outline how the new subsidy control schemes work alongside other initiatives, including the shared prosperity fund and the levelling-up fund, details of which would be appreciated sooner rather than later.

The abolition of the industrial strategy last year and the disbanding of the Industrial Strategy Council was, according to the BEIS Commons Committee, a retrograde step. I therefore hope that the Government will give serious consideration to Amendment 4 and the other amendments in this group, and recognise the merits of having greater clarity in the Bill, given the boost it will give business to have long-term consistency and clarity.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
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My Lords, I support these amendments, which are very welcome because they make up for what the Bill lacks. It is a very technocratic Bill, with lots of rules and principles, but it completely misses the opportunity to develop a grand strategy for what we want subsidies to achieve. The economic power of government finance is obviously huge; it can sway the economy for good or bad. Simply constraining subsidy-making powers, rather than planning what we want to achieve for those subsidies, indicates a huge lack of ambition on the part of the Government.

Part of that reflects an insurmountable tension within this Government, from those who are so free-marketing that they verge on being anarcho-capitalists to those who want to use the power of state finance as a way of sucking in voters and making a political legacy for themselves. Both those groups miss the point: that the Government should lead the economy into the future that we want to see and live in—one that would be comfortable for the majority of people. We need strategies for how we are going to deal with achieving net-zero carbon emissions and eliminate poverty. That would be a fantastic thing to want to achieve but, somehow, this Government actually increase poverty. Of course, this is not just about wealth; it is also about well-being. The Bill could be a chance to achieve all those things. However, the Government have to get back to the job they should be doing, which is improving the well-being of the population.

Before I sit down, I want to mention the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. He stood and spoke for five minutes without notes, apart from two scribbled sentences on a scrap of paper that I do not think he even looked at. We should all speak without notes. I am one of the biggest culprits; I cannot.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Portrait Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
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My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate; I hope that the Minister will forgive me. I know that the role of the Government Back Benches is to sit there and keep quiet. I apologise for giving way to temptation, but I do so in a genuine spirit of inquiry.

I was very interested in what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said about the question of a map. I have a personal reason for being interested because, dare I confess it, very many years ago—I try never to talk about the past—when I was a Minister in the Commons, for what was then the Department of Industry, I was responsible for radically altering the map that existed for assisted areas in the early 1980s. We decided that this needed doing partly because of the cost but also because the assisted areas map had grown so large that it covered most of the country. There had been pressure to add to it and successive Governments had given way, so the map had got bigger and bigger. Also, rather than being given as the noble and learned Lord implied it should be, the assistance was given automatically. It was thought that there was therefore a lot of deadweight cost in the subsidies system—that is, people got a subsidy if they went to area X simply because they went there. That is what persuaded us that we should radically curtail the map to make it more concentrated.

Over the years, I have reflected on whether that was the right decision because what has happened in this country is that regional inequalities seem to have grown rather worse, while many of the most deprived urban areas have got even worse. I spent many of my teenage years living in Grimsby, a town that has been devastated by industrial change and had huge problems. I do not think that the move away from automaticity and a map, looked at over decades, has perhaps had quite the benefits that we thought it had.

One argument, of course, was for moving to a more selective basis of help because you were more likely to satisfy the criterion of additionality. In the arguments put forward by the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, about equity we have already had a little discussion about additionality—that is, if the Government or a public body give assistance, is it assistance that would not have been given otherwise? That was an important criterion. However, as I say, when I look at the thing in the round, whatever the logic of a more selective approach, I am a bit sceptical as to whether a wholly discretionary and selective approach can work.

There is something to be said for looking at degrees of automaticity and, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said, having a map. He posed the question of how it would be done and what the criteria would be, which is a difficult question. It used to be done on the basis of unemployment combined with travel-to-work areas. I think you would not be able to do it without giving some such weight to unemployment; obviously, it would have to be in a travel-to-work area.

18:00
Given that the Bill talks about guidance and equity, this poses the question of how on earth it is actually to be achieved. I read the evidence given by various academics before Second Reading in the House of Commons. There was an academic from a university in Sheffield—I forget his name; forgive me—who argued strongly for the concept of the map on the grounds that, unless really deprived areas were given a degree of certainty, you would not get the flow of investment into them. This is said in a spirit of inquiry, so forgive me, but there is quite a lot to be said for the concept of a map. We are going to get this White Paper on levelling up but I do not really see how, by just selecting a few towns here rather than a few elsewhere, you can halt this widening gap between the more and less prosperous areas.
Baroness Randerson Portrait Baroness Randerson (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak specifically to Amendment 6, to which I have added my name. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, explicitly outlined its importance.

This very important group of amendments seeks to get to the core of what this is all about: why are subsidies required? As it stands, the Bill sets out seven subsidy control principles, which you could actually call rules and which on their own can easily be interpreted in a mutually contradictory way. They are further complicated by additional “energy and environmental principles”, by “subsidy schemes” versus “streamlined subsidy schemes”, and by “schemes of interest” versus schemes of “particular interest”.

This web of rules is combined with a complete lack of context. I take to heart the points just made by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. As a councillor in south Wales, I was on the receiving end of changing maps. There is great significance in maps as an instrument to encourage investment in certain areas. If you are not going to have a deprived areas map for places to be assisted, you can have a carefully written industrial strategy that sets out terms on which assistance would be given to help the less prosperous areas. There is also a clear potential for overlap with other government schemes. It seems that levelling-up funding could well be seen to be in direct contravention of several of the principles set out in the Bill.

All this is further complicated by the unbalanced power structure at the top. I will not go through it again, but we will undoubtedly do so at different points on our amendments over the next few meetings. Briefly, the crux of the problem is that the Secretary of State is the Minister for England at one moment and the UK’s referee at another. In addition, there is a weak regulator with ill-defined powers and a lack of transparency, with high financial limits at which subsidies have to be registered. All this together strikes me as a chaotic system that is cooking up a bureaucratic nightmare because it does not have the clarity of the map or of the industrial strategy. It is a lawyer’s dream come true and invites litigation.

My noble friend Lord Fox gave us some excellent examples, and we could add to them the overt conflict between the principles of this Bill and those of the ARIA Bill. I was one of the Peers sitting here prior to Christmas discussing the Government’s desire to have the freedom to invest without particular principles that they would have to obey. I cannot see how that does not conflict with this Bill.

The amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, tries to start to sort this out. So far the Government clearly do not know what they want, or they would have set it out in much greater detail and with much more clarity. Another way of looking at this is that the Government have been given all the cards in terms of power and can brush aside competition. They can hide significant subsidies that fall below the very generous thresholds that they have set out. It leaves the Government free to pick winners on the flimsiest of evidence—almost as was done over PPE at the start of the Covid pandemic, and we know what grief that has caused to both the Government and taxpayers.

Crucially, Amendment 6 sets out a process of agreement between the four Governments on what constitutes “disadvantaged areas” that are hence in need of levelling-up subsidies. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said, this must be a decision taken at a political level. It is not suitable for the CMA or the Competition Appeal Tribunal; their job is to judge individual cases against the rules established as a result of political decision-making.

Amendment 6 would once again establish in legislation the existing concept of common frameworks in relation to this topic. There are of course dozens of common frameworks on everything, from nutritional labelling to rail technical standards, from blood safety to motor insurance. Each has a set of rules on how the four Governments of the UK will co-operate to ensure that individual internal markets work properly. If any mechanism is likely to disrupt relationships within the internal market then subsidies are the one, so a formal common framework with evenly balanced dispute mechanisms is required. That way, the Governments of the four nations can establish their own priorities for subsidies and ultimately subject them to a formal dispute procedure if needed.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC)
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My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate, and I am going to do so not from a particularly Welsh angle but from a general one. I identify with Amendment 6 and the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, with regard to the practicality of any Act like this being interpreted by the courts. We are going to create a monster if we are not careful, and it may well fall down because of its own inertia.

Three areas of experience spring to mind for me in addressing this question. The first is the old—am I allowed to say it?—Chinese saying that if you give a man or woman a fish then you feed them for a day, but if you teach them to fish then you feed them for a lifetime. Therefore, any long-term economic strategy must be geared towards enabling that to fulfil itself, so that we are not just providing subsidies for the day but providing a basis on which to build.

The second experience that comes to mind is writing an economic plan back in 1970 with the late, great Phil Williams, whom some colleagues here will remember from the National Assembly. We did an analysis to find winners in terms of industry and in terms of geographic location. Most of them worked out. In fact, they were fairly common-sense things—electronics, chemistry and so on—and I suspect that they would have fulfilled themselves had there been no grant mechanism, because they were doing what there was a momentum towards.

My third and final point concerns our experience in Wales with regard to European funding; I have no doubt that similar experience will have been obtained in Cornwall, South Yorkshire, Merseyside, parts of Scotland and wherever such funding was available. The funding went not just to narrow projects but to areas of investment with a long-term payback, such as work, even blue-sky projects, in our universities. These would not create immediate jobs but provided a basis on which industry and commerce, and those who were going to invest in them, could look to the future. The scheme of grants that was available then through the European Union was very broad; we should not ignore that dimension. We need mechanisms that enable that to happen. If we can get this right, it could be very valuable. It may well be that this Bill has that potential in it, but there is a lot that needs to be clarified at the moment. Some of these amendments may help tease that out.

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Portrait Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
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My Lords, I wish to intervene briefly because this has been a really interesting debate. The intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, seemed to ask legitimate questions about whether the intention of the Government’s strategy relates to levelling up or regional development.

In the 1970s, I was involved with the economic development strategy. I remember the map that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, talked about. It was about unemployment and travel to work but it did not always take account of things such as depopulation. There are certain communities where, if there is no work, people go and look for it, but the communities are then told, “You don’t have high unemployment, so you’re not entitled to any support”. Yet those people can be encouraged to stay there, or alternatives can be brought in.

Secondly, it seems to me that this should have some relationship to the economic realities of the region. We have seen situations in which ideas have effectively been dumped into a region, with massive incentives from government, but simply did not survive. These were big projects that became white elephants and embarrassments. On the other hand, supporting local and growing businesses has proved very effective. It is exactly the kind of thing that local councils and local organisations are better at, because they have that degree of knowledge in a way that central government often does not and they are kind of organic.

I remember, in the 1970s and 1980s, the Highlands and Islands Development Board, which was set up in the 1960s. It described itself as an investment bank with a social conscience. At the time, the Scottish Affairs Select Committee was holding an inquiry that Conservative MPs had asked for, originally with a view to discrediting the board. I must say, they rather changed their view at the end of the evidence. The chairman was asked, “How many of the projects that you have supported failed, and what was the average rate of return on the investment you made?” We got an answer to those. When asked, “How did those compare with the private sector?”, the answer was, “Almost exactly the same.” The question then was, “So why do we need the Highlands and Islands Development Board?”, to which the answer was, “All these projects were turned down by the private sector in the first place but succeeded.”

We have been through a period of highland depopulation, and it is beginning to happen again. In my part of the north-east of Scotland, we lost our development assistance, perfectly understandably, on the arrival of the oil and gas industry. Now that it is leaving, we may well need to support not the fossil fuel industry but new industries, perhaps related to energy, or some of the traditional industries that add value to the food production of the area and that sort of thing.

I suggest that we are entitled to ask the Government for some kind of explanation of strategy as to how this is going to work, whether there should be a map and what kind of sectors can be expected or allowed to be encouraged. At the very least, the objective over 10 years would be to reduce the inequalities between the high-growth, high-population areas and the low-population areas to the benefit of both. I accept the point that stealing from one to give to the other is not the answer, but it is sometimes quite difficult to know what the balance is within that. The questions being asked are legitimate and justified; the Government should give us some idea of what the answers might be.

18:15
Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
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My Lords, as we have heard, this set of amendments seeks to create some foundation for a future subsidy regime, whether that is geographical or socially minded or in terms of activity.

In introducing the Bill, and at other times, the Minister has sought to use phrases such as “flexible” and “light touch” to describe the Government’s plans. We do not have to rely on our own experience: we can read what the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, wrote in the newspapers over the weekend about how he saw a light touch rooted in ad hoc decision-making that created a soft touch for light-fingered individuals. We do not want to enshrine that in an Act of Parliament.

To guide where we are going, it is useful to look at where we have been. That is not nostalgia; it is common sense. As my noble friend Lady Sheehan said, about 10 months ago, the Government abandoned any pretence that they were seeking to deliver a modern industrial strategy and withdrew their promise to set out a long-term plan to boost the UK’s productivity. This interrupted what had been something of a consensus. From Heseltine to Mandelson to Cable to Clark, all of them worked within the same tramlines to a lesser or greater extent. This is characteristic of a Government who constantly seem to want to chip away at things that are multilateral and consensual, and to introduce their own stand-alone version.

As I am sure the Minister remembers, the strategic intensions for the industrial strategy were artificial intelligence and data, clean growth, the future of mobility and supporting an ageing society, alongside the important need to improve the UK’s declining productivity. As we know, the political U-turn was executed by the Business Secretary, the right honourable Kwasi Kwarteng, who at the same time disbanded the Industrial Strategy Council, which was due to oversee this whole process. Meanwhile, I understand that, in BEIS, the associated industrial strategy team was also broken up.

What we got instead was the Build Back Better brochure: a glossy, colour catalogue composed half of launches—usually ones that had already happened—backed up by page after page of colour library photos. The Minister may note that the picture illustrating the infrastructure page is of a Victorian viaduct, which perhaps rather indicates the direction in which the Government might be going. In other words, there is nothing now to guide where we might focus subsidy investment. I understand the Minister’s allergy to central micromanagement but what we have been left with will be chaotic and, I am sure, wasteful and unfair.

On the issue of focusing on regions or areas, there is an example we could look at. It is called the European Regional Development Fund—the ERDF. It aims to strengthen economic, social and territorial cohesion in the European Union by correcting imbalances between its regions. It is what you might call levelling up. It states:

“The ERDF finances programmes in shared responsibility between the European Commission and national and regional authorities in Member States.”


I think that reflects some of the words we have heard already. It goes on:

“The Member States’ administrations choose which projects to finance and take responsibility for day-to-day management … In 2021-2027 it will enable investments in a smarter, greener, more connected and more social Europe that is closer to its citizens.”


The aim is to create businesses that are

“more competitive and smarter … greener … more connected”,

supporting the social life of the areas in which they operate—this very much speaks to the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about improving the lives of the people who live in the country, which is something we should all be seeking every time we debate an issue—and are

“closer to citizens, supporting locally-led development and sustainable urban development.”

I am not proposing that the Minister leads us bravely back into the European Union. What I am proposing is that the Minister learns from the experience of others and applies that learning in a sensible way. This is an opportunity to do such learning.

Lord Callanan Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
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Apologies; I thought that the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, was going to speak there. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale and Lord McNicol, the noble Baronesses, Lady Blake and Lady Randerson, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, for tabling Amendments 4, 4A, 5, 5A, 6 and 25.

Let me go back to first principles. The Bill establishes a clear, flexible set of rules for granting subsidies for all public authorities in the United Kingdom. Its central function and purpose is to reduce harmful distortions to domestic competition and investment—as well as to trade and investment between the UK and other countries, of course—which can arise from the giving of subsidies. The new domestic regime will not, however, instruct public authorities on which policy objectives they should direct subsidies towards, so long as they remedy a market failure or address the much-discussed equity concerns.

We are not in the business of interfering with the policy decisions of democratically elected public bodies in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the United Kingdom. In keeping with this, the new subsidy control regime will empower public authorities to design subsidies in a way that is tailored and bespoke for their local needs, without facing excessive bureaucracy in order to do so. That is why we have provided clear guidance that supports public authorities, and which they must consider, to support them in choosing the appropriate indicators because we believe that they are the ones who are best placed to make those final decisions.

Turning first to Amendments 4 and 25, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for his amendments; the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, put her name to Amendment 4. However, it is my view that Amendments 4 and 25 go against the grain of the Bill. Taken together, they would provide for the Secretary of State to make, by regulations, a strategy that sets out how subsidies should be used by all public authorities to support the delivery of various other strategies. They would then require public authorities to consider the subsidy strategy before awarding a subsidy or making a subsidy scheme. The UK Government have developed various strategies for specific policy issues and will continue to do so. This is where and how the Government will articulate and develop a coherent approach to issues such as net zero and levelling up.

To take an example, in March last year, the Government published a policy paper on how they will build back better, setting out plans to support growth through significant investment in infrastructure, skills and innovation. The Government will also soon publish a levelling-up White Paper—eagerly awaited by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, no doubt—articulating how bold new policy interventions will improve opportunity and boost livelihoods across the country as we recover from the pandemic. On the points made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Blake and Lady Sheehan, the shared prosperity fund will ramp up to £1.5 billion per year in 2024-25 and total funding will, at a minimum, match the size of EU funds in all nations each year. The Government will publish further details of the fund in due course.

The Committee should bear in mind that subsidies are but one possible tool in the toolbox for supporting strategic public priorities. It is not necessary for the UK as a whole, or even the UK Government, to have an overarching strategy for the provision of subsidies, much in the same way as there is no need for a broad strategy on the use of regulatory levers. Strategies should focus on how to tackle the major issues, rather than the specific tools through which we may address them. A subsidy strategy could well risk steering public authorities towards using subsidies inappropriately or indiscriminately.

It is imperative that public authorities give proper consideration, on a case-by-case basis, to whether the subsidy they propose is the appropriate instrument for achieving any given policy objective. In many cases, there may be more appropriate measures which a public authority can deploy. To take an example dear to the heart of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, meeting our net-zero targets will involve leveraging a mixture of public interventions, including but not limited to regulation, the emissions trading scheme and public procurement, as well as appropriate and carefully targeted subsidies.

I will now address Amendment 5, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol. Subsidy control principle A allows public authorities to address inequality and disadvantage through the use of subsidies. It states:

“Subsidies should pursue a … policy objective”


that either remedies a market failure or addresses

“an equity rationale (such as social difficulties or distributional concerns).”

Amendment 5 seeks to include areas of relative economic deprivation as an example of an equity rationale that may be addressed through subsidies. I welcome the noble Lord’s support for levelling up and his interest in ensuring that the subsidy control regime provides for this. I can assure him, however, that the Bill already facilitates the use of subsidies to support areas of relative economic deprivation.

The concept of equity rationale set out in principle A unquestionably covers investment in areas of relative economic deprivation. It is my view that guidance is the best place to provide further examples of legitimate policy objectives for subsidies and, more broadly, to address the practical application of those principles. The Government recently published illustrative guidance on the application of the subsidy control principles. This elaborated on the meaning of an equity objective:

“Equity objectives seek to reduce these disparities between different groups in society or geographic areas.”


It further states that subsidies targeted at

“Levelling up a deprived or disadvantaged area”

would be an example of an equity objective. I would be very happy to discuss this further ahead of Report with the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and my noble friend Lord Lamont as I am keen to ensure that the intention here—that regional disadvantage is an example of equity rationale—is clear.

The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, raise a number of similar issues. I am glad of the opportunity to address those as well. A Bill for regulating the granting of subsidies for all purposes, in all policy areas, is not the place to articulate a levelling-up strategy. There will be plenty of time to debate that when the White Paper is published. The purpose of his amendment is to ensure that subsidies to remedy regional disadvantage are permitted under this regime, and on that point I hope I can give him complete reassurance.

As I have mentioned, this is an inherently permissive regime; there is no default prohibition on subsidies. I confirm again that addressing regional disadvantage is an equity rationale for the purposes of principle A, and one that would therefore justify the giving of a subsidy. In contrast to the EU state aid regime, there is no need for central government to set out maps or other metrics of deprivation in the Bill to permit levelling-up subsidies. By empowering public authorities at all levels of government to give subsidies that are designed by them to meet the needs of the places for which they are responsible, the Bill will undoubtedly be an important enabler of the Government’s levelling-up agenda.

However, the subsidy control regime is distinct from it. It is not directly through this Bill or regulations made under it that the Government will pursue their programme to level up the UK. It is perhaps also worth noting that, just like the EU state aid regime, the Bill is concerned with regulation; it is not a source of funding. No doubt there will be lots of debates at other times and in other places about the appropriate level of funding, but I submit that Committee on the Bill is not the place to have those debates. Everything is in its place. This is a flexible and permissive subsidy control regime. Although it facilitates levelling up, it is not the place to define it and it should not be seen as the main vehicle for pursuing it.

18:30
Finally, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for tabling Amendment 6. As I have set out, we are not recreating the EU’s state aid regime, so the logic that followed from the EU’s approach does not follow from ours. Delineation, through maps, of disadvantaged areas was a necessary feature of the EU’s regime. It was only through an exemption defined using those maps that giving certain types of subsidies was permitted.
However, it is no longer necessary to use our domestic subsidy control regime to delineate areas that qualify for extra support. That is because this regime does not create any default prohibition on subsidies that might prevent such support being given. Moreover, the Bill is not directly related to the metrics used to assess eligibility for the levelling-up fund, the UK shared prosperity fund, the towns fund and other levelling-up money. Instead, it will be for public authorities at all levels of government to identify areas of need in the areas for which they are responsible and to give subsidies accordingly. We are not going to be creating barriers to support in one area simply to create artificially more favourable rules for another. Levelling up is about increasing the prosperity of the whole United Kingdom; of course, there will be targeted support for the most disadvantaged areas, but, as the Prime Minister has said, levelling up is not a jam-spreading operation.
Of course, we will produce guidance which supports public authorities to deliver subsidies in support of levelling-up objectives that comply with the requirements in the Bill. I hope that the illustrative guidance we published last week provides at least some reassurance on this front. To directly answer the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, it is not for the CMA or the CAT to rule on whether a specific subsidy is a worthwhile intervention or whether businesses in Hartlepool should have access to more favourable subsidies than those in Hull; neither do I believe it is for the UK Government acting alone, nor for agreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations as part of a common framework. Making a decision on whether a specific subsidy is the appropriate mechanism to address the specific needs of a particular disadvantaged area is the proper role of the public authorities which are either elected or have other well-established methods of accountability, as well as working under stringent public spending controls and other duties effectively to manage public money.
The role of the CAT will be to determine whether the public authority has complied with the statutory requirements set out in the Bill, not to do a merits review of the actual decision to grant a subsidy. For its part, the CMA will advise public authorities on their compliance with the regime. If a public authority gives a subsidy to what it considers a disadvantaged area, and provided that the public authority’s actions are reasonable, this regime will not see the courts giving a view on whether the area is necessarily disadvantaged or not. Therefore, for the reasons I have set out, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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As I understand it, the guidance states that every authority now needs to define for itself what a social equity is as far as deprivation is concerned, even taking into consideration what relative that would be. It says:

“Public authorities must use supporting evidence which … should include measures or statistical indicators set against appropriate comparators”.


That suggests that every public authority defining its own scheme will have to provide its own statistical basis and definitions. How will the CMA judge those against others? Given that there will be no commonly agreed areas of social deprivation, is it not likely to create even more bureaucracy and confusion if every public authority has to make its own definitions and provide its own necessary material and statistical basis?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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It is for the CMA to provide guidance on those matters but for the authorities themselves to determine whether the subsidy in question is justified. Then, but only if it is challenged against the principles in the Act, will the CAT be empowered to make a judgment on whether it is in compliance with the specific provisions in the Act.

Baroness Blake of Leeds Portrait Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
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My Lords, I express my gratitude for all the contributions to this increasingly important debate. Judging by the response from the Minister, there are still many areas that I am sure we will want to pursue and explore and to which we will come back at later stages of our proceedings. I echo the comment by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, that there is a clear question here: is there a clear strategy? That is something that we can all question as we go forward.

Many of us in the Room today have been involved with the vexed issue of distributing regional funding, which is extraordinarily complex. I come back to the very clear comments by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, about the nature of the political decision in this. I have enormous concerns about how the whole process will be taken forward if it is allowed to stay in its current form, and real concern about the lack of focus on what it is going to mean in terms of benefit for communities and for people. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, emphasised, a lack of clarity, very little in the way of guidance and too many gaps have been the theme that has run through this debate.

I have to pick up one of the comments that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, made concerning tension within the Government. I think that helps to explain where the lack of clarity has come from.

I think we would all welcome improvements. No one is trying to suggest that what we had before was perfect. I myself go back to the time of SRB funding, for example, when local authorities were put by a national directive in the position where communities were split down the middle, with funding going into an area on one side of a street but not the other. We do not want to move away from local determination, and that is very much the spirit in which we are taking this up.

With those comments, and with a clear understanding that we will be coming back to discuss these important matters, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.
Amendment 4A not moved.
Schedule 1: The subsidy control principles
Amendments 5 to 6 not moved.
Amendment 7
Moved by
7: Schedule 1, page 52, line 6, at end insert—
“(c) progress towards meeting the target in section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008 (carbon target for 2050).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment adds consistency with the UK’s net zero commitments as a particular consideration for public authorities before deciding whether to give a subsidy.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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My Lords, the future of our planet should be of concern to us all. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, will argue that language around the preservation of it should be part of all our legislation as we move forward.

I have tabled Amendments 7 and 11, both of which are quite short. Amendment 7 would insert proposed new sub-paragraph (c), which refers to

“progress towards meeting the target in section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008 (carbon target for 2050).”

This amendment adds consistency with the UK’s net-zero commitments as a particular consideration for public authorities before deciding whether to give a subsidy.

Amendment 11 is another short amendment, very much along the same lines, to insert proposed new sub-paragraph (c), which refers to

“delivering progress towards meeting the target in section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008 (carbon target for 2050).”

We also support many of the other amendments in this group. I hope to hear the Minister provide a clear explanation exactly how the Bill as written, if these amendments are not accepted, will move us closer towards the 2050 net-zero target, and how the use of subsidies could and should contribute towards that.

There are a number of legitimate reasons for making subsidies to industries that have traditionally been associated with damage to—or, at least, not the preservation of—the environment. We have campaigned on this over the years. Many public authorities may wish to support jobs in industries such as steel that have environmental issues. Conversely, subsidies can be used to facilitate the green transition by investing in newer, greener technologies and approaches.

Any climate commitment in the Bill will have to be carefully crafted to balance any immediate economic concerns with the long-term environmental ones. As COP 26 highlighted, we are a long way from delivering the scale of change needed to preserve this planet for future generations. All the parts of the UK economy—our devolved authorities, local authorities and central government—will have to contribute towards hitting emissions and other targets.

The Minister will no doubt point to Schedule 2 as an example of Her Majesty’s Government’s commitment to the green agenda but, as we discussed at Second Reading, the application of the environmental principles is somewhat limited. In the further amendments to the Bill, does the department aim to broaden them in any sense?

From what we have heard in response to other amendments, the Minister is likely to resist the amendments in this group and not want to set any precedent, yet we have seen various commitments made in recent times, whether in the Pension Schemes Act, the Financial Services Act or the suite of Defra legislation, in which commitments have been given and gone into in more detail.

We want to support businesses to support the planet, and many will want to do the right thing, but financial incentives are often needed to help drive those key changes. This new subsidy control scheme should wherever possible support the transition to net zero. At Second Reading, the Minister mentioned net zero three times in his opening and closing remarks, but in the Bill as now crafted there is no mention of it. These amendments seek to impress upon the authorities that would be making subsidies the need for alignment with support for net zero. With that, I beg to move.

18:45
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
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I am going to ask the Minister four questions. I would like an answer today. If I do not get the answers today, I would like a meeting with him to explain why it is incredibly important that he listens first-hand. One issue I have is that the Government keep bringing us these thin Bills that ought to include things such as the ecological crisis—climate change—but do not. We as an opposition end up tabling all these amendments and then the Government complain because we are taking too long to debate the Bill. My first question is: please will the Government start putting these issues into Bills so that we do not have to keep making the same arguments about the ecological emergency? Why is that not in the Bill?

The subsidy principle should ensure that all our environmental and climate targets are met. Ecologically damaging, polluting industries should be weaned off public money completely and, ultimately, binned. My Amendment 8 would ensure that subsidies contribute towards limiting global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees centigrade of warming. That is what scientists say we must achieve, so our laws should reflect that reality. I hope that the Minister will not insult our intelligence by telling us that the Government are on track to do that; they most definitely are not. I can list an awful lot of legislation that has been passed that is damaging our chances of getting to that lower level of global warming.

My Amendment 33 would prohibit subsidies for fossil fuels and extend the definition of fossil fuel subsidies to include any government policy that makes fossil fuels cheaper than their true cost. This is really important, because fossil fuel subsidies are not just about giving money or tax breaks but include favourable regulatory systems, exemptions from environmental laws and so on. It is essential that we capture all those factors in the calculation of a subsidy.

My second question is a very particular point, and perhaps cannot be answered today. It is about community energy schemes. They are quite important in a lot of local communities. Please can the Minister tell us something about them, perhaps at a later date? I might have to bring back another amendment.

Finally, I am opposing the Question that Clause 51 stand part of the Bill. Nuclear energy is an energy scheme or an environmental scheme. I need an explanation —this is my third question—why nuclear energy is expressly excluded from the energy and environmental principles in the Bill. This seems to allow for favourable subsidy arrangements to be given to the nuclear industry against renewable and zero-carbon energy sources, which will clearly distort the market in favour of nuclear. If nuclear can compete with renewables, let it do so and scrap this exemption. If it cannot compete with renewables in a fair fight, why pursue nuclear at all? This is a probing amendment at the moment, but I will probably bring it back on Report and push a vote on it, because I am so incensed that there is not a fair fight between nuclear, which is potentially extremely polluting, and renewables. My fourth question is: will the Minister meet me so that I can explain all these issues clearly and with much more energy to him?

Baroness Sheehan Portrait Baroness Sheehan (LD)
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It is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb —we are often on the same page. I shall speak to Amendments 9, 10, 12 and 29 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, who is unfortunately unable to be with us this afternoon. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who also, sadly, cannot be here this afternoon, for adding his name to the amendments, along with my own. The main purpose of these amendments is twofold. First, they would embed consideration of climate and environmental targets in the Bill, to ensure that they are factored into the decision-making of public authorities when designing and deciding to award subsidies. Secondly, they would ensure that subsidies align with, or at least are not contrary to, our net-zero and environmental targets.

COP president Alok Sharma in a recent speech said that

“inaction or delayed action on climate will create immense risks and costs.”

He went on to highlight the economic opportunities for businesses of acting now and stated that

“my absolute focus for the UK Presidency year is delivery.”

The Government’s own Net Zero Strategy states:

“Our goal is to go even further to embed net zero across government activity. This will mean that government takes net zero into account when taking decisions.”


It further calls for

“a whole system approach to tackling climate change”,

which includes:

“Embedding net zero in a wider range of decision-making levers.”


I have purposely used the Government’s own words.

The fact is that if we do not ensure that alignment with our climate and environmental goals is embedded into new policy frameworks, such as our new subsidy control regime, we risk missing a key opportunity for delivering climate action. Delivery will not happen effectively and quickly unless both net-zero and nature considerations—because nature is inextricably linked to the climate crisis—are consistently woven into the fabric of all that Governments do at every tier of decision-making; not just centrally but devolved Administrations and regional and local government. The Government said in their response to the consultation on the Bill that

“public authorities will be able to take subsidy decisions that facilitate strategic interventions to support the UK’s economic recovery and deliver government priorities such as levelling up and achieving net zero.”

I welcome the Government’s recognition that subsidies can be a valuable way of supporting the achievement of the UK’s net-zero targets. However, there is nothing in the Bill to ensure that subsidies are directed towards interventions that can help to achieve our net-zero and environmental goals or, even worse, to avoid a situation in which subsidies that are contrary to or do not align with these goals could be introduced. Unfortunately, not all public authorities are as focused on delivering net zero as others—the Cumbrian coal mine comes to mind. Without this strategic direction, opportunities could easily be missed. I hope the Minister will agree that we need to include our net-zero and environmental goals within the Schedule 1 principles as laid out in Amendments 9 and 10 from the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, which would guide decision-making on subsidies.

The Government did, in fact, consider including a specific net-zero principle but decided against this, which is a real shame because including consideration of net zero would not have precluded the achievement of wider policy objectives. It simply provides that when granting any subsidies, not just those related to energy and environment, public authorities must consider whether they align with our net-zero and environmental goals. This would not compromise the Government’s flexible, proportionate approach to the new regime.

It is important that the broader principles in Schedule 1, which apply to all subsidies, provide clear direction to the hundreds of public bodies that will use these rules and embed the consideration of net-zero and environmental goals. This would show strategic direction and leadership from the Government, and support the COP president’s aims for a clear focus on delivery. With the urgency of the challenge ahead of us—to take action to reduce emissions and restore our depleted nature—we cannot afford to miss opportunities such as this to help to deliver it. I hope that the Minister will consider embedding consideration of climate and environmental goals in the Bill and look sympathetically at Amendments 9 and 10.

Amendments 12 and 29 would provide simple clarifications aimed at ensuring that the law stated that the grant of subsidies did not release a beneficiary from its other legal duties in relation to environmental protection. Amendment 12 would clarify, within the principles, that all subsidies should be subject to that prohibition, while Amendment 29 would provide for a stand-alone clause within the general prohibitions with the same effect. We are saying that, without the amendments, there may be perverse incentives and the “polluter pays” principle could well be lost. I look forward to a response from the Minister on those amendments.

I support the amendments in this group in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, which are very much in the same vein as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott.

I want to mention Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about subsidies for fossil fuels. The Minister and I have frequent disagreements on what defines a subsidy, so I am pleased that this amendment has been tabled. I support it because I hope it will give the Minister an opportunity to clarify, first, whether taxpayers’ money should be used to support exploration for new oil and gas fields, and secondly—there are many subsidies but I will restrict myself to two questions—whether the Government should in fairness continue to allow the decommissioning costs of fossil fuels in the North Sea to be met by the UK taxpayer. Oil companies at the moment are pocketing vast sums of pure profit—eye-watering and fairly obscene profits—and we are giving them money on top of that. The Minister will have his opportunity to answer that—I hope he will.

I also welcome the Motion by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that Clause 51 not stand part of the Bill, which is a probing amendment. I, too, want to know why nuclear energy is excluded from the energy and environment principles in the Bill; there seems to be little rationale for doing so.

Baroness Hayman Portrait Baroness Hayman (CB)
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My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, particularly as co-chair of Peers for the Planet. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this suite of amendments dealing with climate change and environmental issues. I particularly support Amendments 9, 10, 12 and 29, which have just been so ably introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and are in the name of my noble friend Lady Boycott, who I know is deeply disappointed not to be able to be here. I did not manage to get my name on the amendments but I am here, so perhaps I can say a few words about the general tenor of this group.

19:00
I know that, at Second Reading, the Minister was clear that he wanted to articulate the Government’s commitment on the issues of net zero and climate change. He spoke to those issues, saying that the Government were confident that the arrangements in the Bill supported their commitment to net zero and would help to achieve their priorities on environmental targets and issues. However, I know that the Minister will not be surprised if I argue that we should explicitly embed the good intentions that I am certain the Government have in the Bill and integrate considerations on climate change and environmental targets in appropriate places in the legislation, which is the purpose of the amendments.
As the COP president, Alok Sharma, said in his major speech last week, we need to
“match the powerful rhetoric we heard, with concrete action”.
I was almost going to say that that concrete action is there not just for the purpose of saving the planet, which sounds rather flippant. However, we talked earlier about long-term environmental priorities and short-term economic priorities. I am not sure whether that is a real dichotomy because if we, as a country, are to grow —and do so in a sustainable way—we have to have that green transition to which the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, spoke. It is in the interests of our strategic, economic growth policies to ensure that, at all levels of this subsidy process, we take those issues into account.
As the Minister knows from exchanges we have had in the Chamber, I think that part of the problem of why we have before us policies and legislation that do not properly integrate and articulate these issues is because the Government have not accepted the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation of a net-zero test for all policies and legislation. We need action in every sphere of our society, in every element of the economy and in every department by having an approach that recognises the overwhelming importance of this issue, as well as the possibilities and implications across the widest span of areas.
It is interesting that this is recognised outside government. Last year, the CBI, the TUC and other major national organisations wrote to the Prime Minister asking for just this sort of net-zero test so that there was consistency and strategic direction. As we all know, for those outside who are making investment decisions and everything else, clarity and certainty are very important. Looking at how these amendments could be integrated into the subsidy regime going forward would assist everyone involved with it—not just the public authorities that put forward the subsidy regime and the subsidies, but those who are applying for them.
Lastly, I refer to those Bills mentioned earlier. We have not yet achieved the objective of having our climate change obligations running like a golden thread through policy and legislation. But when we have argued the case on individual Bills—I have been involved with three: the Pension Schemes Bill, the Financial Services Bill and the Skills and Post-16 Education Bill—the Government have recognised the advantage of explicitly spelling out how our net-zero and environmental obligations can be integrated in the legislation. In the end, that has been done not by defeating the Government but by persuading them. I am not sure whether I want to join the tête-à-tête of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, with the Minister or to ask for a separate meeting, but I hope that he will be willing to speak between this stage and Report about how we can make progress on those issues.
Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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My Lords, if I speak briefly now, I need not intervene on the Minister. Relating to electricity and energy, having had a second weekend without electricity in the Scottish borders as a result of the storm, I may say that moving towards a more sustainable and reliable network is a key consideration for many people in the north of England and the Scottish borders. The Minister led the Statement on this issue, and I know that it is an important issue for him, but we are still vulnerable in this country.

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. Before I ask the Minister my question, it is worth putting on record that we are already a number of weeks behind member states of the European Union, which has now integrated within the subsidy scheme state aid for climate, environmental protection and energy. Whatever we secure as a result of any new scheme, we will be playing catch-up. It would be most interesting to know whether companies in Northern Ireland can now utilise the new scheme from the European Union within the areas of goods and electricity provision.

My questions to the Minister relate to Clause 51. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, referenced nuclear. I am happy if the Minister wants to write to me on these points. First, how will our approach on supporting nuclear power for both our domestic consumption and exporting technologies, which we will soon see in the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill that is going through Parliament, interact with this legislation? I understand that the Government’s proposal for funding nuclear is to make its funding model more akin to how we fund our railways and our regulated asset base. How will the regulated asset base for private sector companies, which will be able to use it, interact with the subsidy principles? We could see all the work we are doing here become completely irrelevant if private sector companies can use a regulated asset-based system. Can the Minister explain how they will interact? Does the regulated asset base fall into scope within the Bill?

Secondly, as I understand it, the Government, through small modular reactor funding, have already provided £210 million to Rolls-Royce as part of supporting small modular reactors. However, that is for export. Rolls-Royce is very keen to promote the fact that Qatar is interested in buying these technologies; a Minister who was in Qatar in recent months was saying how good that would be, with joint funding from a French company and an American company. My understanding is that support for export, unless it is WTO-approved or through export finance guarantees, is prohibited within this, so I would be grateful to know where that £210 million of small modular reactor funding fits. Is it a subsidy, or would the scheme supporting it be considered a subsidy? If the Minister could respond to those points, I would be grateful.

Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
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My Lords, we have had a detailed debate. Before making a few comments—I emphasise “a few”—I return to the idea of having meetings. I recommend that perhaps the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Hayman, and others should all have separate meetings with the Minister. Then we can compare notes afterwards.

I find it interesting to read Schedule 2 because it refers to:

“Subsidies in relation to energy and environment”.


I am trying to think of any human activity that, strictly speaking, does not involve energy or the environment. Perhaps the Minister can suggest an activity that goes on which does not consume energy and/or affect the environment in one way or another, because that seems a false distinction. Many speakers have made the point that trying to put energy and the environment in a ghetto within Schedule 2 does not make any sense. Human activity, by its nature, is interacting with the planet at that level. It therefore seems clear that those activities pervade all elements of the legislation that we are talking about here.

Each of this suite of amendments—I have never heard a group of amendments called a “suite” before but it is nicer than “raft”, which I have always wondered about— seeks to address on a small scale, in its own way, the bigger point that speakers have made: these issues need to be at the centre of the Bill. I am not going to compare and contrast any of the amendments but I will pull out a point around Amendment 12 that is worth emphasising: supporting activity that can cause pollution. We have not heard much about that in these speeches, although I think my noble friend Lady Sheehan mentioned it. We have to be clear that if subsidies are there then they are not supporting pollution, which is another aspect of our environmental impact.

I reiterate—but without repeating—that we need a plan. Net zero is not an easy target. Whichever year we set for it, there is an awful lot to do; we need to find ways of developing technology that we do not even have yet. It is clear that subsidies will be a key element in delivering our response to net zero. However, the plans are not there to get us there. That is not my opinion; I take as my text the Climate Change Committee’s statement on its annual report to Parliament last year, showcasing the strategic blind spot that we keep coming back to:

“The Government has made historic climate promises in the past year, for which it deserves credit. However, it has been too slow to follow these with delivery. This defining year for the UK’s climate credentials has been marred by uncertainty and delay to a host of new climate strategies. Those that have emerged have too often missed the mark. With every month of inaction, it is harder for the UK to get on track”—


the point that my noble friend Lord Purvis was making. The committee says:

“An ambitious Heat and Buildings Strategy, that works for consumers, is urgently needed. Delayed plans on surface transport, aviation, hydrogen, biomass and food must be delivered. Plans for the power sector, industrial decarbonisation, the North Sea, peat and energy from waste must be strengthened. The … cross-cutting challenges of public engagement, fair funding and local delivery must be tackled.”


Subsidies are going to be a key way of making many of those issues happen—the Government sometimes use the phrase “pump priming”—but, instead of having a plan, the Government are settling back for what I can only describe as a free-for-all. It is clear that the amendments are trying to set out a structure where that free-for-all can be brought in and focused on something that matters to all of us every day.

19:15
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate. The noble Baronesses, Lady Sheehan, Lady Hayman and Lady Jones, raising their favourite subject brought me a great sense of déjà vu—the feeling that I have been here before and will no doubt be here on many occasions in future. Nevertheless, it is important to highlight the crucial issues of our net-zero commitments, climate change and environmental protection.

Before I address the individual amendments, I will explain further the approach that we have taken in this Bill towards the vital subject of energy and environmental protections. As noble Lords are aware, the Subsidy Control Bill sets out a new approach that is tailored to the needs of the UK. Broadly, it addresses two objectives: first, to facilitate compliance with our international commitments, including the subsidy control provisions in the EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement; and, secondly and perhaps more importantly, to ensure that markets in the UK function effectively and that we minimise the domestic distortive effects of subsidies.

However, in respect of energy and environmental objectives, it would be fair to say that our approach is slightly different. In this area, the UK’s existing commitments, regulations and practices are extensive and world-leading, from the Environment Act principles to support for Sizewell C and the clean heat grant. Given all this, I believe that we already have the right framework in place.

As a result, our primary objective in respect of the energy and environment principles is to fulfil our international obligations—specifically, to implement the provisions in the TCA. These are good, common-sense principles; it will not be a challenge for UK public authorities to comply with them. I am not trying to suggest that they have been included reluctantly or that they do not have this Government’s full endorsement, but, equally, we have not sought to introduce further requirements or extend the scope more widely than required because we believe that energy and environment rules in general should apply to all kinds of policy-making, regulation and funding, rather than having specific provisions just for one tool in the toolbox. This brings me to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on why nuclear has been excluded from the principles set out in Schedule 2; I will come on to that in more detail.

I will start with Amendments 7 to 10, all of which would amend Schedule 1. I thank the noble Lords, Lord McNicol and Lord Whitty, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Sheehan, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle—I see that she is not with us—and Lady Boycott, for tabling and putting their names to the respective amendments.

Schedule 1 sets out the subsidy control principles that public authorities must consider for any subsidies that they award or subsidy schemes that they make. These common-sense principles will ensure that subsidies and schemes offer value for money while addressing important public policy objectives in the United Kingdom. Public authorities will need to consider the effects of subsidies in the round before awarding them. The areas currently listed under principle G are those that subsidies inherently affect: competition, investment and trade. Other negative effects should be considered for the purposes of principle G only in so far as they are relevant.

Net-zero and climate change considerations are not inherent to all subsidies. Placing additional emphasis on climate change in principle G, or adding an additional principle H, could lead to public authorities having to do bespoke, possibly onerous, assessments for every single subsidy awarded or subsidy scheme made, even when it has no meaningful impact on net-zero targets.

I turn now to Amendment 11 to Schedule 2. Schedule 2 sets out that energy and environment subsidies must aim at one of two objectives: first, delivering a secure, affordable and sustainable energy system and a well-functioning and competitive energy market; or, secondly, increasing the level of environmental protection compared with the level that would be achieved in the absence of that subsidy. I would have thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, would support that. This amendment would add a third aim, specifying that subsidies in relation to energy and environment should incentivise the beneficiary to help to deliver the UK’s net-zero target.

As I have said—there is no disagreement among us here—I and the Government entirely agree that net zero is of critical importance. Indeed, the Government published their Net Zero Strategy last year. The Government have already announced new subsidy schemes that promote net-zero objectives, are compliant with the interim subsidy control regime and, of course, ensure good taxpayer value at the same time. These include schemes such as the clean heat grant, which will help consumers to overcome the high up-front costs of low-carbon heat and will build supply chains for low-carbon heat ahead of the introduction of regulations for existing buildings off the gas grid, which we will come to later in the decade.

However, I do not believe that it is necessary to add an additional aim in Schedule 2, principle A. Sustainability and environmental protection are explicitly mentioned in the principle already, and it is clear that progressing our net-zero priorities would fall into these categories. Adding a further requirement on all subsidies and schemes, on top of those existing principles and regardless of whether the subsidy or scheme has a specific net-zero aim or impact, is not necessary given the existing comprehensive set of regulatory requirements on public authorities. I have mentioned several of these already but they include the legally binding environmental targets in the Environment Act, for example. It could even disincentivise other valuable subsidies that improve environmental protections but would not have a direct net-zero component.

Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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The Minister and the Government have been consistent in saying that moves are unnecessary, specifically because of principle G, but principle G says that

“beneficial effects (in terms of achieving their specific policy objective) should outweigh any negative effects”.

The “beneficial effects” are the achieving of the “policy objective”, so if the policy objective has nothing whatever to do with sustainability—it could well be market support in one area—then only beneficial effects with regard to that “specific policy objective” will be taken into consideration. There will not necessarily be beneficial impacts on sustainability, net zero or climate because the beneficial effects are very narrowly defined under principle G. So the necessary element still stands because the Government have restricted beneficial effects only to those linked with the original policy objective.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I think we discussed this earlier. I am really not sure of the point the noble Lord is trying to make.

Amendments 12 and 29, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Boycott and Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would prevent subsidies that would relieve their beneficiaries from their liabilities as a polluter. Provision already exists in the Bill to protect the “polluter pays” principle for any subsidy in relation to energy and environment. Principle B in Schedule 2 sets this out explicitly:

“Subsidies in relation to energy and environment shall not relieve the beneficiary from liabilities arising from its responsibilities as a polluter under the law of England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.”


Clause 13(3)(b) ensures that a public authority

“must not make the scheme unless it is of the view that the subsidies provided for by the scheme will be consistent with those principles.”

As I have previously set out, it is right that the provisions in the “polluter pays” principle apply only where they are relevant. That principle has long-standing foundations in UK law—including, most recently, in the provisions of the Environment Act 2021, which I also covered earlier.

Amendment 33 would prohibit subsidies for fossil fuels, including those subsidies that fall within the definition used by the IMF for fossil fuel subsidies. This would include subsidies for fossil fuel development and for the construction of new unmitigated fossil fuel-powered electricity generation, either in the UK or abroad. The principles in Schedule 2 to the Bill will help ensure that energy and environment subsidies contribute to optimal outcomes for UK citizens, recognising the importance of a secure, affordable and sustainable energy system and increasing levels of environmental protection.

I am fully in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, that inefficient fossil fuel subsidies encourage wasteful consumption, reduce our energy security, impede investment in clean energy sources and undermine efforts to deal with the threat of climate change. However, I cannot accept this amendment because unabated gas-fired generation currently plays a critical role in keeping Great Britain’s electricity system secure and stable. New-build gas generation capacity will continue to be needed to ensure security of supply until clean alternatives are deployable at scale.

Baroness Sheehan Portrait Baroness Sheehan (LD)
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I have a question for the Minister. We have a real problem with fuel poverty and the energy cost of living—indeed, the cost of living everywhere. Energy costs are so high, and they are going to get even higher come April. Does it not worry the Minister—and, through him, the Government —that Shell paid $1.8 billion in tax to Norway in 2020 but, over the same period, it received $99.1 million from our Government in the UK? In that year, the UK was the only country where Shell operates in which it did not pay tax, according to the company’s own annual report on payments to Governments. There is something very wrong here.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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That is not a subject for today’s debate. I have no idea whether the figures produced by the noble Baroness are accurate, but we have had this debate many times. We are phasing out fossil fuel-required generation. We have one of the fastest deployable rates of renewables in the world. We have the largest offshore wind capacity in the world. I appreciate that the noble Baroness wants to go even faster but, unless she is standing here saying that we should turn the lights out tomorrow, even the Climate Change Committee accepts that we will need gas-fired generation in the years to come. This is a transition, not a revolution, so we will scale down our use of fossil fuels gradually but, in the short term, we will continue to need them.

Baroness Sheehan Portrait Baroness Sheehan (LD)
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I really must challenge the Minister on this. He knows that this is not a question of switching off the lights overnight. The Climate Change Committee has a well-worked-out plan for scaling down our use of fossil fuels. In that plan, we start to reduce our reliance on oil and gas to a point where the only oil and gas we have is mitigated by some form of abatement, in whatever form that may take, by 2050. The plan is not that we continue to use gas unabated until 2050—that just is not the case. It is very misleading to say that.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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Indeed—[Interruption.] I will let the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, come in as well.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
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We may have had this debate many times but the fact is that the Government do not listen. For example, the Government could have already reduced by a huge margin our reliance on fossil fuels and gas by helping people insulate their homes. They have given little bits here and little bits there, but they have not invested heavily. They could do more but they refuse to do so. I do not understand why. So, we are going to continue having these debates until the Government actually fulfil some of the promises they have made.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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We will continue to have these debates: I just point the noble Baroness to the fact that we are spending £3.4 billion over the next few years on precisely the schemes that she mentions. By all means, argue that we should be spending even more, but it is just not true to say that we are not spending anything at all. We will continue to have these debates.

Going back to the points by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, I think we are in danger of violently agreeing here. Of course, there has to be a transition and we have to reduce our reliance over time, but my point is and will remain that in the meantime, we still require unabated gas-fired generation unless she is proposing to turn the lights out, which I know she is not. Therefore, we are effectively agreeing. We could have a long and detailed debate about the scale of the transition and how we should progress the transition, but in essence we are saying the same things.

19:30
I argue that we also need nuclear generation, which is why we will certainly consider a Bill on nuclear. No doubt we will have further discussions about the merits of that when it comes, but in terms of baseload capacity, the only option that faces us in the absence of fossil fuels, given the unreliability and intermittency of renewables, is baseload nuclear generation for much of our generation capacity. It is not a matter for this Bill; we will have that debate separately, no doubt.
Finally, I turn to comments in the debate on Clause 51, as called for by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. This clause establishes that subsidies and subsidy schemes for nuclear projects are not required to be assessed against the additional principles for energy and environmental subsidies set out in Schedule 2. Subsidies or subsidy schemes for nuclear energy will be required to be assessed against the main subsidy control principles in Schedule 1. Nuclear projects are, of course, also subject to numerous already-existing regulatory obligations and requirements beyond those set out in the Bill. These are stringent and world leading in their rigour and ensure that nuclear projects in the UK both meet the highest standards of environmental protection and, crucially, support the UK’s net-zero commitments.
Removing this clause would have the effect of requiring these projects to be assessed against the additional energy and environmental subsidy control principles. This could render the UK nuclear industry less attractive for nuclear investment relative to EU member states, since the Government’s interpretation of the relevant provisions on energy within the trade and co-operation agreement is that nuclear energy projects are not included in them, as per long-standing European Union practice and convention.
To summarise, I am entirely in agreement with noble Lords who have tabled these interesting amendments to the Bill. Of course, we agree on the importance of the net-zero agenda, although I cannot agree with all the views expressed on fossil fuels and nuclear power.
Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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Will the Minister address the points about how the regulated asset base will be considered—I understand his comments about that—and specifically about support for the small reactor scheme for Rolls-Royce?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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The noble Lord makes some valid points on the RAB mechanism, which will be debated in full on the upcoming nuclear Bill, but I will write to him on the specific points, particularly about support for the SMR reactors he talked about. I point out that existing subsidy schemes are of course excluded from the Bill. No doubt he will want to ask what happens if we want to award a similar subsidy in the future.

In my view, the energy and environment principles provide helpful support to our energy, environmental and climate change ambitions, but they are not the main engine of those ambitions. Finally, to answer the other questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on community energy—not really a matter for the Bill—and the Government’s approach to net zero, I am very happy to follow that up and write to her with the details. We are fully in favour of community energy projects, but of course they have to pay their share of the costs towards the network, as all other projects do if they wish to be connected to the national grid. I will write to her with the details and follow up with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on SMRs and the basis of nuclear subsidies.

Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
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My Lords—

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I have not satisfied them all yet.

Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
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There may be something to add to the letter. My noble friend Lord Purvis made a valid point about paragraph G of Schedule 1, to which the Minister feigned non comprendi. The point my noble friend was making is that the Minister had said there was no need to have an explicit environmental or energy benefit in the Bill because that was implicitly within everything. However, paragraph G absolutely says that unless something is a specific policy objective, it is not considered to be a beneficial effect, so that paragraph cancels out what the Minister said to the Committee. Some sense of resolving that tension would be helpful. That is something we can come back to because, if indeed paragraph G overrides other benefits, which it seems to do, it is even more important that environmental and energy issues are placed at the heart of the Bill.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I think if the objective is set then it is an overarching benefit, but I will be happy to confirm that to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and will copy the letter to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, as well. Once again, I will be very busy in my letter-writing activities for the next few days. With that, I hope noble Lords are satisfied—or, if not satisfied, content—with the answers that I have given and therefore, in compliance with that, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment at this stage.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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I thank the Minister for his response, and I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones, Lady Sheehan and Lady Hayman, for their comments. I am not quite sure how many of the four questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, we got through; we might be coming back to some of them.

As expected, to be fair, the Minister said that he believes we have the right framework in place and there is no need to extend it. I had a different take on the discussions with the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Fox, about paragraph G. The Minister said that not all subsidies will be relevant to net zero. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, pointed out earlier, many subsidies fit around the issue of energy and climate but, if we take the Minister at his word on that and a particular subsidy has no meaningful impact on climate or net zero, his argument was that it could cause an extra administrative burden on the authorities if they have to show that it is not relevant. However, if the subsidy had no relevance to the environment or to climate. it would be relatively straightforward for them to say so. My feeling was that that negated the argument that the Minister was making for not including Amendments 7 or 11 in the Bill.

I am still genuinely struggling to understand why it would be so difficult to include that commitment, because those are guiding principles. If we all agree that we need to move towards net zero, protecting the environment and delivering on the climate emergency, then this is an opportunity to put that language in the Bill—especially a Bill that is so relevant to the fact that historically either state aid or government decisions, which we have argued for many times, have supported industries that harm the environment, albeit for very good reasons.

I am sure we will come back to this issue but, with that I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.
Amendments 8 to 10 not moved.
Schedule 1 agreed.
Schedule 2: The energy and environment principles
Amendments 11 and 12 not moved.
Schedule 2 agreed.
Committee adjourned at 7.41 pm.

House of Lords

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Monday 31 January 2022
14:30
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Durham.

Retirement of a Member: Lord Coe

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

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Announcement
14:36
Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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My Lords, I should like to notify the House of the retirement with effect from today of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, pursuant to Section 1 of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. On behalf of the House, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his much-valued service to the House.

Middle East: Human Rights

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

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Question
14:36
Asked by
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Portrait Baroness Anelay of St Johns
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress was made by the Foreign Secretary at her meeting with the foreign ministers of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, and Kuwait on 20 December 2021 on protecting and promoting human rights.

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park) (Con)
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My Lords, on 20 December, the Foreign Secretary hosted her Gulf Cooperation Council counterparts. The meeting was primarily focused on foreign policy and trade and investment, and the full communiqué detailing the main discussion points has been published on GOV.UK. I can reassure all in this House that we regularly engage with our partners from the GCC and consistently underline the importance of respect for human rights. We continue to work closely with our allies to tackle any human rights concerns.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Portrait Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)
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My Lords, a month before that meeting, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office published its update on the human rights abuses about which it was concerned in Saudi Arabia. They include enforced disappearances, arbitrary detention and torture. Did the Foreign Secretary raise these issues with the Saudi Foreign Minister when she met him and with what results? If not, why not?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, no aspect of our relationship with Saudi Arabia prevents us speaking frankly about human rights. Saudi Arabia remains an FCDO human rights priority country, particularly because of its use of the death penalty and restrictions on women’s rights, freedom of expression and religious freedom. We regularly raise concerns with the Saudi authorities through diplomatic channels, including through Ministers, our ambassador and the British embassy in Riyadh.

Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
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My Lords, I want to underline the important question that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has just asked the noble Lord. Will he return to the issue of capital punishment that he has just referred to and confirm that, since 2015, there have been over 600 executions? Although there has been a welcome reduction in recent years, did we raise that directly with the Saudi authorities and did we raise with them their obligations under Article 18 of the 1948 convention on human rights, the issue of freedom of religion or belief—comparing them perhaps with the much more favourable disposition of countries such as the UAE in implementing Article 18?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, the full communiqué has been published on the government website but, in relation to the death penalty, in October last year my noble friend Lord Ahmad—in whose portfolio this sits—raised his concern regarding the use of the death penalty in the kingdom with Dr Awwad al-Awwad, president of the Saudi Human Rights Commission, inquiring specifically into the case of Abdullah al-Howaiti and Mohammed al-Faraj, both believed to be minors at the time of their crimes. He raised a range of other concerns as well.

Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
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My Lords, at the time of the meeting, a number of human rights organisations wrote to the Foreign Secretary regarding Dr al-Singace, a human rights defender who is in prison in Bahrain. He has been there for over a decade and has been on hunger strike for over 190 days. Can the Minister tell us whether this case was raised and whether we are seeking his release after this horrendous period?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we continue to monitor and raise the case of Dr Abduljalil al-Singace as well as many others with the Bahraini Government and the relevant oversight bodies.

Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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My Lords, the International Relations Committee found that the Government were on the wrong side of international human rights law in not pausing arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the attacks in Yemen are carrying on. The Minister will know that the UN Secretary-General has condemned the Saudi-led coalition for the recent attack on 21 January that led to 91 civilians dying. This, together with the Houthi rebels who are recruiting child soldiers—primarily from Sudan—shows an escalation of the conflict in Yemen. This is the very wrong time to be cutting our support for women and children in Yemen. Will the Government now reverse this and ensure that those most at risk in Yemen are supported by the Government, rather than the floor being taken away from under them?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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As I said, we have a good, full and frank relationship with our Saudi Arabian allies. There are no issues that are off the table in our discussions with them. Saudi Arabia remains a human rights priority country within the FCDO, particularly because of the use of the death penalty. We will always raise concerns with the Saudi authorities when it is felt that we should do so.

Lord Howell of Guildford Portrait Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend Lady Anelay is entirely right to raise the question of promoting human rights. It is a great cause, but does the Minister agree that along with rights go responsibilities? Will he accept that if these countries are to join properly in the comity of nations and gain our respect, they not only have to improve their own human rights record but have to stand up internationally and vocally for the rule of law and speak out in flagrant breaches of the rule of law—particularly as we now see being proposed by President Putin around the borders of Ukraine?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, the UK has always believed that reform will be the guarantor of longer-term stability in the region—that we are more likely to bring about change through engagement, dialogue and co-operation. However, of course my noble friend is absolutely right to say that with the rights enjoyed by these countries come enormous responsibilities.

Lord Anderson of Swansea Portrait Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
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My Lords, some of these states, in contrast with the UAE, have a very patchy record on human rights, particularly in respect of freedom of Christians. Does the Minister believe that gross human rights violations should render a state ineligible for membership of the UN Human Rights Council?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, if we were to apply—honestly and rigorously—the same criteria, there would be very few members of the Human Rights Council remaining.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend Lady Anelay asked a specific Question about whether these matters were raised in the meeting on 20 December. My noble friend the Minister gave a helpful but general answer and did not answer that specific question. Could he now do so?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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I am very pleased that my answer was helpful. I apologise if it was too general, but I am afraid that is the depth of my knowledge on an issue that does not normally sit within my portfolio.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
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My Lords, some 20 years ago we signed a big contract with Qatar to get liquid natural gas from the North Dome oilfield and take it round to Milford Haven, and that contract was running well. Bearing in mind the current energy crisis and the need for gas, were there any discussions about that? It seems to have tailed away slightly. Where do we stand now on ensuring that provision of LNG?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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I am afraid I do not know if there were discussions in relation to access to gas in Qatar, but I will ensure that the noble Lord’s question is followed up in the Foreign Office.

Lord Singh of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
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My Lords, do any of the places visited allow those of other faiths, particularly non-Abrahamic faiths, to have their own places of worship and to practise their religion freely, as required under Article 18?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, I may not have heard the beginning of the question correctly; I think it was about whether the countries visited permit the kind of religious freedom that the noble Lord rightly says should exist in all countries. If that was the question, the answer is no. There are any number of restrictions in place in countries across the region, including Saudi Arabia. In this country, we have always strongly supported the right to freedom of religion or belief across the region and indeed across the world.

Baroness Hussein-Ece Portrait Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
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My Lords, my noble friend Lord Purvis asked specifically about Yemen and Saudi involvement, but I did not hear a clear response on that. Could the Minister comment on the escalation of the war and the humanitarian disaster in Yemen? Also, could he comment specifically on whether, in the discussions, Saudi Arabia is being asked why it is not allowing international organisations to deliver basic food and medicine to people who are starving and suffering in this terrible conflict?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My Lords, to my knowledge, this issue was raised in discussions in Saudi Arabia, particularly in relation to ease of access and transport for delivering much-needed provisions in Yemen. I will encourage my colleague to follow up with a more detailed answer.

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere Portrait Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
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My Lords, there is barely a country in the world with which we will not have some differences on domestic policy, but with Saudi Arabia this has spilled over into international affairs—in Yemen, with the kidnap of the former Lebanese leader and in the Khashoggi murder. Will my noble friend the Minister confirm that, in our relations with all GCC countries, we will stress the vital importance of the principles of national sovereignty, territorial jurisdiction and order among nations?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)
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My noble friend is exactly right, and that is very much the view of the British Government. There is no single formula for success or single model of government, particularly in a region with such distinct cultures and differing political systems. It is not for the UK or indeed other Governments outside the region to dictate how each country meets the aspirations of its people, but there are certain principles that we must—and do—continue to stand up for.

Intelligence: Russia

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
14:47
Asked by
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to introduce legislation “to provide the intelligence agencies with the tools they need to tackle the intelligence challenges posed by Russia”, as called for by the Intelligence and Security Committee in its the Annual Report for 2019-2021 (HC 877).

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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My Lords, I am very pleased to confirm that, as announced in the Queen’s Speech, the Government are committed to bringing forward new legislation to counter state threats and ensure that our world-class security services and law enforcement agencies continue to have the tools that they need to tackle the evolving threat and any challenging or hostile activities by any state.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
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My Lords, in that case, where is the Bill? This is a question of priorities. We have a number of badly drafted, long Bills before the House at present, but this is a question of national security. It is two and a half years since the ISC Russia report was published and the Prime Minister has dragged his feet ever since. Can the Minister assure us that the links of the Russian elite to the UK, to which the report refers, and its links to political parties are not part of the cause of the delay, given the amount of Russian-origin money which has flowed into Conservative Party finances?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I can absolutely assure the noble Lord of two things. The Bill will be state agnostic and linked to the actions of whichever state or actor is trying to perpetrate evil against this country; it will not be country specific. On the delay, this area of law is complex and some of this legislation has not been updated in over a century, so we must make sure that we both bring it up to date and future-proof it.

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton Portrait Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)
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My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Reserve Forces review 2030. Providing access to skills and tools was at the heart of the Question. The Reserve Forces review 2030 is all about trying to access civilian skills through the medium of the reserve to support the Government. Given the relationship between the intelligence agencies and defence intelligence, does my noble friend not think that, if we were better at this, we could use the reserve to provide the very skills we are calling for to counter the Russian threat?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My noble friend homes in on a very important point, which is that we must use all the skills and tools in our armour to counteract whichever threat we are facing. That is why it is so important that this Bill comes forward to allow us to use those skills and tools.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, does the Minister think that President Putin is going to treat seriously any threats from Boris Johnson or Liz Truss, when we are continuing to give hundreds of Russian oligarchs golden visas to enable them to get British citizenship and, perhaps even eventually, membership of the House of Lords? Is this not a total farce?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, in terms of people being a threat to this country, the noble Lord talked about, as I have often done, the funny money that might be swirling around—

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I think he kind of talked about both: visas and money coming into this country. He will know from legislation that I brought in previously that, through unexplained wealth orders and things like that, we are doing everything we can to stop the flow of illicit finance in this country. I cannot comment further on golden visas, except to say that we are very, very careful about the visas we issue and the people we let into this country.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD)
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My Lords, speaking of legislation that has not appeared, will the Minister acknowledge, as other Ministers have, that the Bill providing for a public register of the beneficial owners of property in the UK has been ready to go for weeks but has not yet been introduced in this House? Will she also confirm that the intelligence services have no hope of dealing with what is known as the London laundromat until that Bill becomes law, when civic society across the globe and activists can assist the intelligence services in getting to the bottom of these chains of ownership that lead, in the end, to oligarchs and kleptocrats?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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The noble Baroness illustrates some of the complexities around state activity. She is absolutely right—I recall her being involved in the Bill—and the Government have made a start on this. We have things such as unexplained wealth orders in place, and we will be bringing forward legislation to deal with the various threats that are impeding the rule of law and our economy.

Lord Coaker Portrait Lord Coaker (Lab)
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My Lords, in the 2020 report the committee found that until recently, the Government had badly underestimated the response required to the Russian threat and were still playing catch-up. Shockingly, that same report also found that the UK was clearly a target, but that no one within government was prepared to take responsibility for the defence of the UK’s democratic processes. Therefore, can the Minister reassure the House that whatever legislation the Government are proposing will deal with those specific points, and that they will move quickly to deal with this and the other issues that noble Lords have raised today?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I most certainly can reassure noble Lords that we will be looking at all legislative possibilities to deal with the various issues that the noble Lord, the noble Baroness and other noble Lords have raised today.

Baroness Ludford Portrait Baroness Ludford (LD)
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The Foreign Secretary pledges “nowhere to hide” for Putin’s oligarchs, but they are “hiding in plain sight” in their London mansions. In 2018, the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee said that the London laundromat of corrupt, Kremlin-connected assets

“has implications for national security.”

That was nearly four years ago. Do we have to wait until its chairman, Tom Tugendhat, becomes Prime Minister, as he wants to do, before action is taken?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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As far as I am aware, there is no vacancy for the post of Prime Minister, but there is ongoing work to implement the recommendations as soon as practicable. I note at this stage that the majority of the recommendations do not actually need legislation, but we are getting on with them and great progress is being made.

Baroness Whitaker Portrait Baroness Whitaker (Lab)
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My Lords, might not the current threat from Russia be diminished if Ukraine could be persuaded to adopt a neutral stance like that of Finland?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I do not think I would agree with that point, no.

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Portrait Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
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My Lords, have the Government ever considered the use of compulsory purchase orders when ownership of property is being deliberately concealed?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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The noble Lord makes an appealing point but the situation is far more complex than that. Particularly with the unexplained wealth orders legislation that I brought through a couple of years ago, it is not as easy as just compulsorily purchasing houses.

Lord West of Spithead Portrait Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
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My Lords, I declare an interest as the House of Lords member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. These reports are done in huge detail, with huge inputs from people who know a lot about this. Particularly in the case of the Russian report, it took a very long time for it even to be taken note of by the Prime Minister. Can the Minister ensure that reports such as that—other reports are on their way—are actioned rapidly and moved forward, rather than being effectively sidelined?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I agree with the noble Lord’s point. Ongoing work is being done to implement the recommendations in the report, many of which do not need legislation. However, the noble Lord makes an absolutely valid point.

Lord Austin of Dudley Portrait Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, the weekend papers were full of reports saying that the Government were threatening to sanction members of Putin’s inner circle if he went ahead and invaded Ukraine. However, given that he has invaded Crimea, assassinated his opponents here in the UK and looted Russia’s economy, thereby impoverishing the poor Russian citizens, why have the Government not considered doing this anyway?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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The noble Lord is absolutely right. I am not party to some of the discussions going on in the FCDO and elsewhere, but he highlights the point that we have a major problem with regard to the influence here.

Lord Young of Norwood Green Portrait Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
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My Lords, the reason why Putin and his ilk do not worry too much about economic sanctions is that much of their wealth is laundered over here. The Minister referred to the unexplained wealth orders legislation. Can she explain why there have been few, if any, successful prosecutions?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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There have been some, and as I have explained to the House, it is quite complex and sometimes these things are very difficult to secure. There is more work to be done.

NHS Dentistry

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
14:57
Asked by
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Healthwatch England’s report What people have told us about NHS dentistry, published on 20 December 2021, what steps they are taking to address the issues faced by those attempting to access NHS dental care.

Lord Kamall Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)
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Practices are currently prioritising patients based on clinical need, and a new activity threshold has been set at 85% to safely increase access. A one-off additional £50 million, recently secured for NHS dental services this financial year, will urgently give more people, including children and others who are vulnerable, access to vital dental care. We are working with the NHS, Health Education England and the British Dental Association to improve access through dental system reform.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, the £50 million one-off payment for 350,000 appointments is a drop in the ocean compared to the 38 million appointments that have been lost during Covid. The Healthwatch report shows that parents are having great difficulty accessing NHS dentistry for their children, who may be suffering pain and unable to eat, and we know about adults who are indulging in self-care because they cannot find an NHS dentist. When will the Government get to grips with this problem and develop a proper strategy for dealing with it?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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As the noble Lord will know, anyone can have access to an NHS dentist—they do not have to be registered with the practice in question—and when they are unable to find a practice, they can ring 111 to get information. In addition, over 700 urgent dental care centres remain open across the country.

Baroness Benjamin Portrait Baroness Benjamin (LD)
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My Lords, dentistry is facing an unprecedented challenge. We will not overcome the enormous backlog of treatment and the rising wave of dental staff leaving the NHS unless dentists have a seat at the table and a voice when commissioning decisions are made which affect them and the millions of patients they treat, especially children, for whom tooth decay is the number one reason they are admitted to hospital. Will the Minister tell us whether and how dentists will be represented in the new integrated care systems?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the noble Baroness for that question. Following the Bill there has been a debate about the integrated care system—both the integrated care boards, and who should be there as a right, and the integrated care partnership, which works with local authorities and others, including place-based organisations and primary care organisations. We hope that they will all have a voice via the ICP.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Portrait Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
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My Lords, is the Minister aware that so many of the major hospitals are now closing their dental facilities after hours? These facilities were for parents of children who suddenly develop pain—many children hide problems with their teeth until it is so painful that they cannot stand it anymore. It is not good enough: the hours that dentists are able to work and the fact that, on the whole, there is only one dentist per surgery, mean that, every time, they must wait at least six minutes after they have finished with a patient before they can even consider seeing the next one. If more of them could work together, something could be done about this limit on vacancy time—I have brought this up before. The dental people brought forward the idea that, if a certain type of oxygenator were provided, the other would not be needed. Can something more be done?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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My noble friend raises a very important point. I am sure many people understand that, when we first became aware of Covid, one issue was that, by its very nature, dental care can generate aerosols from the mouth, which presented a specific risk for dental activity. Once more was understood about Covid and its airborne spread, practices reopened in 2020 and were asked to provide urgent dental care. In addition, we have opened 700 urgent dental care centres to help patients in urgent need. You can also call 111. We are also looking at the longer-term reform of dental practice, and are in conversation with the BDA and others.

Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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My Lords, the target-based NHS system was already unfit for purpose before Covid-19 and is completely incompatible with providing safe and sustainable services to patients as we emerge from the pandemic. Does the Minister agree that dentistry and the state of people’s mouths is becoming a serious issue which shows health inequalities? We are heading towards people who cannot afford dentistry, and their children, having rotten teeth. This is what the Minister must acknowledge and build into the health Bill that is before the House now.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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We are very concerned about the potential inequalities. NHS England and NHS Improvement are very mindful of the risks of widening health inequalities. That is why, in their guidance, they specifically ask dentists to focus on providing urgent treatment for vulnerable groups and children and to delay planned care. NHS England has provided a flexible commissioning toolkit to local commissioners to help focus the available capacity on those who need it most and to reduce oral health inequalities.

Lord Flight Portrait Lord Flight (Con)
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My Lords, an important point arising today is the absence of dental care for children. This problem has worsened. What specific measures have the Government got in mind to accelerate dental care for children?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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My noble friend raises a very important point. We have asked NHS dental practices to meet as many prioritised cases as is safely possible. They are currently prioritising urgent care for vulnerable groups, including children. We hope that the £15 million of additional funding that was recently announced will be targeted at those most in need, including children. If they cannot get access to urgent dental treatment, they can call 111 for assistance and look at the NHS website to identify an NHS dentist.

Lord Bishop of Exeter Portrait The Lord Bishop of Exeter
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My Lords, the report of Healthwatch England states that, of all the areas in the country with lack of access to NHS dentistry,

“the worst affected is Devon, as there are currently no practices showing as taking on adult or child patients.”

Can the Minister assure the House that, as part of the Government’s levelling-up policy, rural communities in Devon and elsewhere will not be further disadvantaged and will have access to NHS dental services?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I am sure the right reverend Prelate will acknowledge that one of the things we have learned from Covid, the lockdown and its subsequent impact has been about the health inequalities that exist across the country. Both my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health and I believe strongly in tackling inequalities; that is one of the reasons why we are keen that this comes to the forefront of the forthcoming Health and Care Bill. But we acknowledge the inequalities and are working with the NHS and the BDA to address them.

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Portrait Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
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My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as a child of a working-class family in the 1940s, I was given a periodic free check on my teeth, as were all children alongside me at my school? Is it not a shame now, when we talk about inequalities and levelling up, that such a facility is not available for working-class children in this country? When will the Government, with their policy of levelling up, set out a programme that ensures an annual check on the teeth of all schoolchildren, regardless of their background?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the noble Lord for that suggestion, which I will take back. The BDA, the NHS and the Department of Health and Social Care are well aware that we need to tackle a raft of health inequalities in this country, including in dental care. The Covid pandemic has highlighted some of those inequalities, and so we can focus on them.

Baroness Redfern Portrait Baroness Redfern (Con)
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My Lords, I welcome the Government’s much-needed boost and the extra £50 million. I particularly welcome the allocation to my area, the north-east and Yorkshire, of over £9 million. One of the six aims of the national contract reform is regarding dentists. With the current contract, how will the Government set a date for the end of the UDA framework? When might it be rolled out to help with recruitment and retention of NHS dentists, as there is urgent need for reform?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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We are looking at long-term reform and are in conversations with the BDA, especially around looking at the current UDA system and understanding its complexities. We have a number of different plans for dentistry, looking not only looking at its contracts but at recruitment and retention of people locally and from overseas, where it is ethical to do so.

Baroness Jolly Portrait Baroness Jolly (LD)
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My Lords, at present, very few dentists in Cornwall take NHS patients at all. There is very poor public transport and travel distances to access a dentist are invariably more than 20 miles. When does the Minister anticipate patients in Cornwall—and in Devon, as we heard—being able to access NHS dentistry?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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The briefing I have is that, if you are unable to access an NHS dentist, you should be able to access one at one of the 700 urgent dental care centres or ring 111 for advice. If that is not happening, I hope noble Lords will write to me, so I can look into it.

Covid-19: Antiviral Pills

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:08
Asked by
Baroness Rawlings Portrait Baroness Rawlings
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government which, if any, antiviral pills for the treatment of COVID-19 they plan on making available for distribution in the United Kingdom.

Lord Kamall Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)
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Me again. The UK Government have agreed deals to secure a total of nearly 500 million patient courses of the oral antiviral treatments molnupiravir and Paxlovid in our efforts to reduce the impact of Covid-19 across the UK. We were the first country in the world to begin rolling out oral antivirals in the community, which we are doing through a new national study called PANORAMIC and through Covid medicine delivery units for those at the highest risk of Covid-19.

Baroness Rawlings Portrait Baroness Rawlings (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for his useful Answer, as always. We are grateful to Kate Bingham and the Prime Minister for making the anti-Covid vaccinations available to all of us on the National Health Service. However, the Covid tests to travel abroad were only available privately. In answer to previous Questions and now, the Minister told us that HMG have bought the new antiviral pills, molnupiravir and Paxlovid. I just want to make sure, by asking the Minister, whether these pills will be available only on the National Health Service or privately.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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At the moment, they are available to anyone in an at-risk group and unable to have a vaccine. In addition, we have started a new trial to get more data—called the PANORMIC trial—including anyone over 50 who has tested positive through a PCR test and anyone in an at-risk group between 18 and 49 who catches Covid. The difference between vaccinations and antivirals is that vaccinations are there to stop someone getting Covid, or to make sure that they do not suffer the worst symptoms, whereas antivirals are given to anyone who has tested positive.

Baroness Wheeler Portrait Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
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My Lords, we welcome the news over the weekend about high-risk patients getting the Paxlovid antiviral drug from 10 February through the NHS if they test positive. There are also very positive results about the Molnupiravir drug, which has already been rolled out to high-risk patients through the Oxford University study. The British Liver Trust, Kidney Care UK and Cystic Fibrosis Trust are leading urgent calls for people suffering with these very vulnerable conditions to sign up to take part in the on-going clinical trials, which are essential in gathering further evidence and information. What action are the Government taking to ensure that doctors and patients have the latest information about the drug and the trials and to combat the ill-informed and dangerous antiviral scepticism that we know will be forthcoming?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the noble Baroness for her question and for making people aware of the PANORAMIC study. One of the things that we are trying to do is look at the communication programme. If we look at the antiviral taskforce, we are looking at a number of different communication channels. For example, tomorrow morning, I believe, I will be co-chairing a webinar with many black and minority ethnic groups and activists to see how we can roll out and get their support in rolling out to those communities. We are looking at a number of different channels and particularly working with a lot of the charities which specialise in things such as chronic kidney disease, liver disease—I have a long list of conditions, which I will not read out now.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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Priority test kits are meant to have been sent to people with immune conditions, so that they get the antivirals within five days of having Covid symptoms. Tens of thousands of people have not got these priority tests and, as Leukaemia Care has said, patients have been sent round in circles having to make up to 20 phone calls to get the test kits. Why has this mess arisen and what are the Government doing to solve it as a matter of urgency?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the noble Lord for making me aware of this. I was not aware of this. I was told test kits were available to anyone who was considered immunosuppressed or vulnerable in advance. Given what the noble Lord has said, it is important that I investigate and write to him.

Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher (CB)
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My Lords, I am not aware of any medication at all for the treatment of chronic fatigue as a result of Covid. What is the relevance of the recent research into the microscopic damage to the lungs caused by Covid? Are the Government funding any research into finding medications that could cure chronic fatigue?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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One of the interesting things about having this role is the number of different stakeholders I speak to and all the wonderful research into vaccines and antivirals for different conditions. I am not aware of any current research into the condition that the noble Baroness refers to. However, just because I am not aware, does not mean it is not happening. I will find out and write to the noble Baroness.

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
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My Lords, there is plenty of time. I think one side could give way to the other.

Lord Boateng Portrait Lord Boateng (Lab)
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My Lords, the Government have long said that the problem with vaccines globally has been not supply but distribution. What proposals will the Government bring forward to illustrate how the antivirals will be distributed and supplied globally?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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That is a very good question. Clearly the focus up until now has been on making sure that vaccines are distributed worldwide working with G7 and G20 partners. When we talk about health partnerships, one of the issues that many other countries raise with us is the supply of vaccines and local manufacture. To date, I am not aware of conversations about antivirals, but I will certainly look into that.

Lord Geddes Portrait Lord Geddes (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am not quite certain whether my noble friend answered my noble friend Lady Rawlings’s question as to whether these antiviral pills can be purchased. He mentioned that they would be available for the vulnerable, but what about the purchase element?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am afraid I do not know the answer to that, but I will write to both my noble friends.

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, antivirals have shown their efficacy against HIV, hepatitis C, influenza, and now, thanks to the Eddie Gray Antivirals Taskforce, against Covid—but they work only if they attack the disease at the very earliest stage, often before symptoms even manifest themselves. We are going to see a great investment in antivirals, so what steps is the NHS taking to adapt to this new form of medicine distribution and to get antivirals into the hands of patients at the earliest possible stage? Five days simply is not early enough.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend for all the work that he put in during his time as the relevant Minister in pushing the Antiviral Taskforce and ensuring the rollout of these antivirals. Since December, patients who are eligible and receive a positive PCR result are referred for treatment into a Covid medicines delivery unit. In addition, the UK Health Security Agency has sent PCR tests to around 1.3 million patients who are eligible for antivirals—bearing in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said, which I need to look into. We are also working with the devolved Administrations to look at whether the NHS could deploy antivirals to a wider group of patients, with an emphasis on rapid identification and treatment, and assuming that we see positive results from the Panoramic trial.

Earl of Clancarty Portrait The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lady Meacher’s question, what help is to be given to the estimated one million-plus people in the UK with long Covid, in terms of both rehabilitation and financial support? This is a major concern.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Earl will be aware, given all the news stories around it, that many people will be concerned about the effects of long Covid. I know there have been studies and interesting stories in the press about the long-term impact. As I said to the noble Baroness, I will find out what is being done in detail and write to her.

Lord Young of Norwood Green Portrait Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, for the Minister’s information, a trial is currently going on using xenon gas and MRI scans, which is looking particularly at the damage to lungs as a result of long Covid. It might be useful for him to get his officials to advise him on this.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the noble Lord. Maybe next time I get a question like that I will ask the Lord Speaker whether I could delegate the answer to him.

First Reading
15:18
The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed.

Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Bill

1st reading
Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Act 2022 View all Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text
First Reading
15:18
The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed.

Economic Crime: Planned Government Bill

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Commons Urgent Question
The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given in the House of Commons on Wednesday 26 January.
“I thank my honourable friend for his Question, but, as I am sure he will appreciate, I am not going to speculate about the content of any future Queen’s Speech, which is the correct moment for the Government to be setting out their legislative agenda for the next parliamentary Session.
However, I can confirm that the Government remain committed to tackling economic crime, which is why my colleagues in the Home Office and the Treasury take the lead on this. In recent years we have taken a number of actions, including creating the new National Economic Crime Centre to co-ordinate the law enforcement response to economic crime, and establishing the Office for Professional Body Anti-Money Laundering Supervision to improve oversight of anti-money laundering compliance in the legal and accountancy sectors. We delivered the Criminal Finances Act 2017, which introduced new powers including unexplained wealth orders and account freezing orders. We are determined to go further to crack down on dirty money to protect our security and our prosperity. With the publication of the fraud strategy and second economic crime plan this year, we will further level up the response to crack down on crimes of this type.
My department is playing its part. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy announced plans to reform Companies House in September 2020. In 2021 we consulted on more detailed aspects of the reforms, and we will respond to the consultation soon. Investment in new capabilities at Companies House is already under way, with £20 million being invested in this financial year and a further £63 million announced in the spending review. The draft registration of overseas entities Bill has undergone pre-legislative scrutiny. We are amending the Bill in line with the committee’s recommendations, and in line with comments that the Prime Minister made to the House just yesterday. We will introduce the Bill and the broader reforms of Companies House when parliamentary time allows.”
15:19
Lord Fox Portrait Lord Fox (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, when this Question was put in the Commons last week, the Conservative MP John Penrose said:

“The well of excuses after three or four years of promising this piece of legislation or its related pieces has now run dry. This legislation is essential for the credibility of this country and this Government”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/1/22; col. 1008.]


I agree. Does the Minister agree with his colleague in the Commons and, if so, when will this legislation be brought forward?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, I cannot give him a timescale for this. As the Prime Minister said last week, we remain committed to this legislation. We have already carried out pre-legislative scrutiny on it and we will legislate when parliamentary time allows.

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Portrait Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
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My Lords, the Government have long promised a full public register of beneficial ownership, alongside a comprehensive set of reforms to Companies House. Reforms are being made, but the pace is slow and the level of ambition is low. If the Government truly want to crack down on fraud and other forms of economic crime, why have these work streams been allowed to move at such glacial pace? If the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, was not able to secure progress from within, why should we believe other Ministers when they say that this issue is being treated with urgency?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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Well, the issue is being treated with urgency. The Treasury is undertaking a number of different anti-money laundering pieces of work. We have already commenced the reforms required in Companies House. We will spend £12 million in 2023-24 and 2024-25 on economic crime reforms and £63 million in a spending review for Companies House reform. As the Prime Minister said, we are committed to making progress on this urgent and essential legislation, and we will do so when parliamentary time allows.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con)
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What is my noble friend’s definition of “urgency”?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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It is an important matter; it is one of many important matters on the Government’s agenda; and, when parliamentary time allows, we will legislate for it.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
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The draft legislation over these entities is quite closely linked to this. Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether that will be wrapped up in an economic crime Bill when it comes, or whether it will be a separate Bill. Perhaps at the same time he could tell us what the relationship is with the overseas territories on the beneficial ownership of these properties. A great many of them are owned by companies based in the British Virgin Islands or other overseas territories. They are sovereign parts of the UK. They seem to have all the benefits of British sovereignty but none of the responsibilities. Are the Government going to ensure that the secrecy of our overseas territories on financial matters is also covered in these Bills?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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Indeed, the register of overseas entities Bill is currently tied up in the economic crime Bill, which we hope to make progress on as quickly as possible. However, I do not want to rule out any alternative legislative routes that might present themselves. As the noble Lord will be aware, it has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny and was well received by the committee that looked at it. We have incorporated some of the suggestions that were made. Of course, I cannot commit to what may, or may not, be in Her Majesty’s speech, but clearly a key element of taking forward this work is liaising closely with the overseas territories, which we will do.

Lord Rooker Portrait Lord Rooker (Lab)
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Will the Bill, when it arrives, fulfil the commitments that David Cameron made in his seminal speech in Singapore?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I cannot give the noble Lord a commitment about when a Bill might arrive. I also cannot give a commitment about what might be in it when it does arrive.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
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One of the key recommendations of the recent Joint Committee on the Online Safety Bill was that scams and economic crimes on the internet should be in scope of the revised Bill when it comes forward. We obviously await the Government’s response to that, but does this not give the Government an opportunity of a double win? Either Bill would do, but the issue has to be addressed.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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There are indeed a number of positive elements to legislating on this issue. One of them is the issue highlighted by the noble Lord. However, we are again dealing with hypotheticals: something that may happen in good time. As I keep saying, we are committed to pursuing this legislation, but I am afraid I am going to sound a bit like a broken record when I say I cannot give a commitment at this stage to noble Lords on when we might be able to do it.

Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
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The latest full accounts of Aquind Ltd give its directors as Mr K Glukhovskoy and Mr A Temerko. Four years ago, the Minister was a member of the board and at that time it had a controlling entity in the British Virgin Islands. It now has a controlling entity in Luxembourg. The last set of accounts showed a loss of more than £3 million and it paid no tax, yet it was able to find £213,000 for donations to the Conservative Party. Will the Government’s measures, which they say are urgent, also address the source of the wealth of controlling entities registered in the Virgin Islands—or, indeed, Luxembourg?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I thank the noble Lord for his fascinating question.

Lord Vaux of Harrowden Portrait Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
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My Lords, it seems that this Bill will be some time in coming, but surely there are things we can do more quickly. For example, the Companies Act 2006 sets out clearly what information is required on directors and shareholders. Is it actually necessary to legislate for Companies House to verify that information? It may not be able to refuse to register the information, but there is nothing to stop it flagging the fact that the information is unverified.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I am afraid that it is necessary for primary legislation to enact the reforms of Companies House. This is an area for which I am responsible, and I work closely with Companies House on it. I get a steady flow of complaints from noble Lords and from Members of Parliament about abuses of the Companies House register. There is a certain amount that we can do with the funding that I announced in terms of reforms, but the primary reforms require primary legislation.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
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My Lords, will this Bill perhaps offer a remedy to ensure that when political parties have had donations from criminals who are fugitives from justice—such as Mr Michael Brown, who made a substantial donation to the Liberal Party—that money will be returned?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my noble friend for that question. As he was straying on to the issue of party-political donations, I noticed groans from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I think that is evidence that they can dish it out but are not so keen on taking it.

Lord Pannick Portrait Lord Pannick (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government’s inability to recover the billions of pounds obtained by fraudsters from Covid business plans, as highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, in his resignation speech last week, demonstrates the vital need for urgent legislative reform?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The issues are not necessarily related. We are continuing to pursue many of the frauds that the noble Lord referred to. I can give the House some examples. The Insolvency Service has already achieved 86 director disqualifications, 39 bankruptcy restrictions have been imposed, and 13 live companies have been wound up in the public interest. It has also identified 947 further director disqualification and 46 criminal cases for investigation, all of which contain an element of bounce-back loans scheme abuses. That scheme was put in place in response to a global pandemic at a very rapid pace, and I think all noble Lords can agree that it succeeded in saving many businesses and many hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country. However, we will not tolerate any abuses of the scheme, and we will continue to pursue people who are fraudulently benefiting from it.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, there is clearly a problem of international confidence in the UK’s financial governance system. Without targeting any particular party, are the Government considering controls on financial donations to all political parties and candidates, as a way of restoring international confidence?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thought that I had come to answer questions on an economic crime Bill, but I see that we are getting into party-political donations again. That is not a matter for which I am, or my department is, responsible, so I am unable to furnish the noble Baroness with a response to her question.

Lord Rooker Portrait Lord Rooker (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

You are answering for the Government.

Lord Bishop of Durham Portrait The Lord Bishop of Durham
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, those who decide to perpetrate economic crime are apparently targeted, swift and very bright about how they do it. I read the Statement and it mentions the Home Office, the Treasury and BEIS. Is it not time for more targeted, thought-through, quick action by government, rather than action that is divided across too many departments?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

All departments are working together to try to combat this menace, and there are a number of different elements to that. Obviously, BEIS’s responsibilities, in terms of Companies House and the register of beneficial owners, are one aspect—but of course there are also tax elements, which are the responsibility of the Treasury, and there are Home Office enforcement matters as well, in terms of criminal liability. So it is not a question of which department looks after this: an enormous amount of cross-departmental co-operation goes on to try to combat it.

Health and Care Bill

Committee (7th Day)
15:29
Relevant documents: 15th and 16th Reports from the Delegated Committee, 9th Report from the Constitution Committee
Baroness Henig Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we come to Amendment 213A. I inform the House that the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Harris of Richmond, will be taking part remotely.

Amendment 213A

Moved by
213A: After Clause 70, insert the following new Clause—
“Health service procurement and supply chains: genocide convention obligations
(1) Regulations whether made under section 70 or otherwise may, in particular, make provision for the purposes of ensuring that procurement of all goods and services for the purposes of the health service in England is consistent with the United Kingdom's obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), procurement is not consistent if a Minister of the Crown has assessed that there is a serious risk of genocide in the sourcing region.(3) A Minister of the Crown must make an assessment as to whether there is serious risk if the chair of a relevant select committee of either House of Parliament requests one, and must complete such assessment within two months.”
Lord Blencathra Portrait Lord Blencathra (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I apologise for my enthusiasm to get stuck into this vital amendment. I will speak to Amendment 213A in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hodgson of Abinger, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, whom I also consider to be a noble friend.

Allow me to begin by stating the obvious: UK taxpayers do not want to be complicit in genocide. It feels strange that this still needs to be said in 2022, 73 years after the genocide convention was agreed and nearly 80 years after the world became aware of the abominations of Auschwitz. Yet here we are in the age of ESG and corporate social responsibility, when the UK boasts of leading the world in the fight against modern slavery, and what do we find? We find hundreds of millions in public money poured into the pockets of companies profiting from Uighur forced labour; hundreds of millions of pounds poured into a region that our closest ally, the United States, has identified as the site of an ongoing genocide—an area so tainted with forced labour that President Biden has just signed into law the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, banning all imports from Xinjiang province unless it can be proven that they are slavery-free.

Those wondering why this Bill and why now have the answer. Credible reports have demonstrated that our existing procurement policy has been insufficient to prevent the Government spending hundreds of millions on slave-made PPE. With noble Lords’ permission, I will address a concern with the amendment head on. I would normally favour this sort of regulatory reform to apply across all government departments and would therefore look askance at focusing on just one department solely, as I am today. However, health is a special case, especially during the current pandemic. According to its modern slavery statement from 2021, the first year that the department has produced any such statement, the DHSC procured 280 regular non-Covid-19 contracts, but how many contracts did it produce for Covid? The answer is 708—708 contracts to address the pandemic, with a heavy preponderance of contracts being awarded to China.

I hope that noble Lords will permit me a brief digression to note that the Government revealed in reply to a recent Parliamentary Question that a billion lateral flow tests were procured from China despite some local production capacity. Why we would eschew British business in favour of companies in China, with all the attendant human rights risks, is beyond me.

Back to the point of his amendment: how many of those 708 Covid contracts went to Xinjiang-based companies? We simply do not know. What did the DHSC have to say about PPE widely reported to have been made by Uighur slaves? It said:

“This statement does not cover the Vaccines Taskforce (co-owned by BEIS), personal protective equipment (PPE) or UKHSA (formerly Public Health England (PHE) and Test and Trace) contracts.”


Those 708 contracts excluded a huge variety of other contracts by different organisations of our Department of Health and associated bodies.

Frankly, that is not good enough. If our laws do not prevent investment in modern slave-traders then, simply, our laws need to be changed. Noble Lords will recall debates surrounding genocide during the passage of the Trade Bill. Your Lordships voted by huge majorities in favour of allowing the High Court to make determinations of genocide, agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others that it was insufficient to outsource our genocide convention obligations to international courts, especially where those courts lack the power to hold back certain states, such as China. These efforts were resisted by the Government and the amendment before your Lordships today does not attempt to resurrect that campaign.

This brings me to the function of the amendment. Its first and core purpose is to apply a human rights threshold to government health procurement. If this new clause stood part of the Bill, it would be illegal for the Government to procure health service equipment from any regions in the world where they believe there to be

“a serious risk of genocide”.

That is a very high bar. It will be present only where the most serious human rights abuses are widespread. We would expect to see crimes against humanity, torture and mass enslavement in such areas.

The spirit of the Modern Slavery Act goes much further than this, discouraging business with companies which facilitate modern slavery offences. Modern slavery is much more widespread and common than genocide, affecting an estimated 40 million people worldwide. But the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are very different things. It is widely acknowledged that Section 54 of the Modern Slavery Act, which seeks to regulate supply chains, lacks teeth.

This amendment seeks to give it some more teeth in a limited and proportionate way. It applies only to government health procurement, allowing us to get our house in order first before pointing the finger at business. It applies only to the most serious human rights abuses of all, those which indicate a serious risk of genocide. Best of all, it leaves the assessment of “serious risk of genocide” to the Government and allows broad scope for the Government to define a process surrounding these risk assessments through regulations. In short, it is a very reasonable amendment. Candidly, while Uighurs in Xinjiang province are being forcibly sterilised, forced to work and detained in their millions, we ought to be doing a lot more. But this is a modest little amendment.

That brings me to the second purpose of the amendment, which is to move forward UK policy on genocide. We have heard ad nauseum from the Government that they have no view on genocide and will only use the word when “a competent court” has ruled on it. This policy has many problems, chief among them being that it makes genocide prevention impossible. The Committee may or may not be aware that our responsibilities under the genocide convention arise “at the instant” we become aware of a “serious risk” of genocide. Those quotes are direct from the International Court of Justice’s Bosnia v Serbia judgment in 2007. Let me repeat; it should happen at the very instant we become aware of a serious risk of genocide. That is when our convention obligations should apply. They do not arise when a court formally determines genocide, which usually happens many years after the genocide in question has ended. They arise at the instant we learn of a serious risk of genocide.

That simply means that the United Kingdom should be making regular assessments of serious risks of genocide and acting where appropriate. But we do not do this. This amendment before your Lordships’ Committee today puts that right and gives Parliament a limited role in ensuring that such assessments are performed in a timely manner, commensurate with the severity of the issue. It does not require the UK to make a formal determination of genocide, nor for the Government to behave like a court. It merely requires the Government to do a risk assessment—something we ought to be doing already.

I shall address the criticism that this is an “anti-China amendment”. This is false. The amendment makes no mention of China and would apply to every country. But I make no apology whatever for my motivation in bringing this amendment forward, which is to address President Xi Jinping’s heinous persecution of the Uighurs.

Finally, I was contacted the other day by the British Medical Association, which says:

“The BMA is deeply concerned about labour rights abuses in supply chains. Evidence shows that medical equipment, including PPE, has been procured from regions in which labour abuses are common, as this BMA report shows. The BMA notes the Uyghur Tribunal judgment, which found the PRC guilty of genocide, and the extensive procurement of NHS supplies from this region of China. This is deeply troubling; acquiring PPE from this region continues the systematic oppression of the Uyghurs and other minorities. The BMA believes all NHS supplies must be ethically sourced and this amendment would significantly reduce the risk of health service goods used in the UK being produced by individuals who are having their human rights abused.”


I hope I have demonstrated the need for this amendment. Having led the world in confronting modern slavery, the UK is falling behind—and we do not need to fall behind. The Covid pandemic has been a sorry period for many reasons, and making the UK taxpayer complicit in the persecution of Uighurs through PPE procurement is one of the sorriest. Let us take the opportunity to put that right: life-saving must not be dependent on life-taking. I beg to move.

Baroness Henig Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite the noble Baroness to speak.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, has outlined why there is an urgent need to address the NHS procurement rules in the light of possible genocide and other clear human rights abuses. We have a duty as a nation and as a society to ensure that goods used in our publicly owned NHS are not tainted with modern slavery or linked with behaviours that may lead to genocide.

This is not hypothetical. In November 2020, the noble Lord, Lord Alton—who I look forward to hearing speak shortly—asked the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, the then Health Minister, about Medwell Medical Products, which has a factory in Fenglin town, in Jiangxi province, noting that Uighur Muslims made up 25% of the workforce, despite being forced to live in separate accommodation from other workers. This was reported at the time by the excellent investigative paper, Byline Times. At the time, the noble Lord, Lord Bethel, said that the Government had not entered into an agreement directly with Medwell but that the central distribution warehouse in Daventry did have a record of receiving PPE masks produced by Medwell Medical Products. A spokesman for the Department of Health and Social Care said to Byline Times:

“We expect all suppliers to the NHS to follow the highest legal and ethical standards and proper due diligence is carried out for all Government contracts.”


This is an extraordinary response. Any contractor to the Government, even in an emergency such as a pandemic, must follow the commitments that the Government have given internationally to ensure that goods used by the publicly owned NHS are not tainted with human rights abuses. If companies such as Marks & Spencer can do it for their clothes supply chain, we can too.

In July 2020, the New York Times reported that Uighur Muslims—a minority subject to widespread persecution in China, including being put into detention camps where they are forced to undergo communist indoctrination—were being employed in the factories of medical suppliers under a specific Chinese Government labour programme. The Speaker of the US House of Representatives said at the time:

“We must shine a light on the inhumane practice of forced labor, hold the perpetrators accountable and stop this exploitation. And we must send a clear message to Beijing: these abuses must end now.”


As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, just over a year afterwards, in December 2021, the Americans passed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act into federal law.

UK Health Ministers’ responses in 2020 were, perhaps typically of this Government, aimed at prevarication and deflecting responsibility. This amendment does exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, and what any self-respecting Government should do. It makes it absolutely plain that procurement must be

“consistent with the United Kingdom's obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”,

and that

“procurement is not consistent if a Minister of the Crown has assessed that there is a serious risk of genocide in the sourcing region.”

The amendment also sets out conditions under which the risk should be investigated if the chair of a relevant Select Committee of either House of Parliament requests an assessment.

The amendment is very straightforward and clear. Perhaps the Minister can explain which parts of it he has problems with. It actually helps the Government, especially after the discoveries of the PPE provided by Medwell Medical Products and the supply chain—we suspect there are many other such companies as well. If the Minister is not minded to accept the amendment, can he explain to the House how NHS procurement can be protected from these human rights breaches, including possible genocide, in the future, and what guarantees there are that the department sees the supply chain details? I hope he will also agree to a meeting with the speakers in the debate on this amendment.

15:45
Baroness Henig Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, is taking part remotely. I invite the noble Baroness to speak.

Baroness Harris of Richmond Portrait Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, has explained that Amendment 213A is an important statement of intent, if put in the Bill, by Parliament and the Government that, on behalf of the people of this country, we will take all the steps that we can to prevent procurement of goods made in places where there is evidence of likely genocide and where human rights abuses and modern slavery are thereby inevitable.

My noble friend Lady Brinton has just explained the problem of the sourcing of PPE from China and from companies that may be using Uighurs’ enforced labour. This is extremely worrying. Given that the Government have previously ignored an amendment passed in your Lordships’ House in the Trade Act 2021, despite rising international concerns about genocide against the Uighurs, it is vital that we remember the duty placed on nation states to use a deterrent effect.

In its judgment of 26 February 2007, in Bosnia and Herzegovina v Serbia and Montenegro, concerning the application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the International Court of Justice found at paragraph 431 that the duty to prevent arises

“at the instant that the State learns of, or should normally have learned of, the existence of a serious risk that genocide will be committed”,

as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, stated. The judgment continues:

“From that moment onwards, if the State has available to it means likely to have a deterrent effect on those suspected of preparing genocide, or reasonably suspected of harbouring specific intent … it is under a duty to make such use of these means as the circumstances permit.”


This amendment echoes that judgment by saying that all endeavours must be made to prevent and deter the procurement of goods from an area where genocide is suspected.

I am also concerned about legislation on slavery, also a scourge of our times, and hope that the Government will not rely on it as a possible alternative. As we have heard, the Modern Slavery Act 2015 merely requires companies with a turnover of £36 million or more to produce a modern slavery statement. The legislation does not prevent companies, or the Government themselves, procuring slave-made goods. The Foreign Prison-Made Goods Act 1897 makes some procurement illegal in certain narrow circumstances, but it is very old legislation and now considered largely defunct. I am grateful to a number of NGOs for their excellent briefings on this subject.

The former Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, said that torture “on an industrial scale” was being carried out in Xinjiang, even though his Government decided not to take action by creating import controls for Xinjiang. This Health and Care Bill offers the opportunity to return to the issue and to improve DHSC procurement policy.

Baroness Kennedy of Shaws Portrait Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, too, have my name to this amendment and support it, as I have previous amendments to other Bills relating to genocide. Health procurement is a very problematic area that warrants the special attention of Parliament. Not to put too fine a point on it, we will probably all have been wearing slave-made masks, even here. But it is a particular concern if great institutions such as our National Health Service are purchasing them in contravention of the standards we would like to set.

According to the Institute for Government, the UK has spent at least £15 billion on PPE since the onset of the pandemic. To put this into context, the normal annual spend on PPE is around £150 million. Perhaps we should have been putting aside more money for it. Anyway, many PPE contracts use products sourced from China. We do not know how much came from the Uyghur region but one news report alone alleged that we had purchased millions of pounds-worth of PPE from a company strongly suspected of using forced Uighur labour. That is just one report and I suspect we will see more investigations and more coming to light.

Even where the PPE is not manufactured in the Uyghur region, it may contain cotton, plastics and some other constituent parts that were. It has always surprised me that we do not have the import control regime that the United States has had for some time. The USA requires importers to document the source of products, not just the town and city but the particular factory, and to make tracking possible. Indeed, DNA tests can locate the source of the cotton, for example—the very region where it has come from.

What do we mean when we talk about serious risk of genocide? These are not just words. They represent the trigger for state responsibility under the genocide convention, as other speakers have mentioned. The International Court of Justice in 2007, in a judgment of a case involving Bosnia and Serbia, was crystal clear that state responsibility to prevent genocide arises

“at the instant that the State learns of, or should … have learned of … a serious risk”

of genocide. We have taken the words from that judgment. By incorporating those words into regulations, we are providing the Government and Parliament with a mechanism to take action to prevent genocide. This is something they lack in their current policy, which makes all actions dependent on a judgment from an international court—which, as we know, bears the Catch-22 that the very countries getting close to genocide or in the process of committing it do not usually want to play by the international rules of law.

Why should a serious risk of genocide be our procurement threshold? There will always be widespread human rights abuses with attendant supply chain risks for businesses where already there is talk of a possible genocide being in play. This should not represent an obstacle to the United Kingdom because since the Modern Slavey Act—which we passed here proudly as leading the world back in 2015—our aspirations have been to ensure that no business can sell slave-made goods into our market. A serious risk of genocide represents a higher threshold than any modern slavery offence, so the bar is set high here. The ban on procurement that a positive finding of serious risk would attract is proportionate. We need take these steps urgently. It is not, as others have said, just about China, but the amendment would, we hope, have an immediate effect in the Uyghur region.

As many noble Lords will know, last autumn the Uyghur Tribunal sat not very far from here, in Church House, led by a sort of jury of persons and the distinguished international lawyer Sir Geoffrey Nice QC. The tribunal concluded that China was, in fact, committing genocide in the Uyghur region and there was a violation of pre-emptory norms in international law that ought to require government action, by us. We are under a duty to act. If a genocide is in train or in progress, we have a duty to try to prevent it. That is what the convention says.

Although the amendment, rightly, does not identify any single country, I would expect it to have some immediate effect in China. The situation is urgent, and we are having this debate because 800,000 Uighurs are working to produce goods against their will. By some estimates, as many as 300,000 children are separated from their parents, which is really part of a process to take them away from the culture, religion and traditions of their people and to deracinate them. At any one time, up to 1 million are in re-education camps. There has also been shocking evidence of forcible sterilisation of Uighur women and many other heinous crimes. There really is an international legal obligation upon us. This House has expressed its views in previous votes and I hope we will eventually be joined by many noble Lords when this comes at some point to a vote.

We are looking at our supply chains and they are being seriously tainted by human rights abuses. We have taken proud steps, leading the world, in seeking to do something about these supply chains, and here is an opportunity to take it even further.

Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
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My Lords, it is a great pleasure to support the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, who so ably moved this amendment; to concur with the speeches just made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, Lady Harris and Lady Brinton; and to associate myself with friends from across the House in respect of the work they have put in over many months to push to the top of the agenda the issue of honouring our duties under the 1948 convention on the crime of genocide. I have two things I would like to add. The first concerns our international treaty obligations, referred to a moment ago, what we are required to do from the moment we know that a genocide is under way, and how we must never utilise to our benefit slave labour in a state credibly accused of genocide. The second concerns the way in which the lack of transparency in our procurement policies has led to the improper use of public money.

The amendment is a logical extension of the debates on the genocide amendment, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said earlier, was passed by three-figure majorities in this House in an attempt to provide a mechanism in the Trade Act 2021 to evaluate when a genocide is or is not taking place. Many promises were made by the Government during that amendment’s many iterations, including the provision of an effective mechanism to determine what constitutes a genocide and to honour our obligations under the 1948 convention. Demonstrably, those promises have not been kept. Worse still, we have established the illusion of a procedure to examine and deal with this most odious and reprehensible of crimes. The fact that we cannot, under that procedure, even look at what is happening in Xinjiang with the Uighurs shows how inadequate it really is.

Can anyone doubt the seriousness of this issue, not least in the light of the pronouncement by the Foreign Secretary, Liz Truss, that a genocide is under way in Xinjiang; or the resolution passed by the House of Commons; or the December judgment just referred to of the Uyghur Tribunal; or the declaration of genocide by United States President Biden; and much more besides? Do we have any excuse, therefore, for not taking action?

The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, referred to a report by the British Medical Association, which seems particularly pertinent in the context of this Health and Care Bill. It sent a letter on 26 January, which noted

“the shocking reports of human rights abuses, including torture, forced labour, political indoctrination, and reported forced sterilisation. Since then, the situation has developed in the most abhorrent manner and we”—

the BMA—

“issued a joint statement with the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and other Royal Colleges in December”—

I repeat, December—

“urging the UK Government and international actors to exert pressure on the Chinese Government without delay.”

It goes on to refer to the independent tribunal, saying:

“It found beyond reasonable doubt that the People’s Republic of China … is guilty of genocide. The Tribunal determined that biological genocide is occurring through restriction of births by forced sterilisation and abortion, segregation of sexes within the detention centres, and forced matrimony and procreation between Uyghur women and Han men. Furthermore, mutilation and biological experiments take place in the detention centres.”


If anybody is in any doubt about the enormity of what is taking place, they should read some of the personal testimonies which were given to the Uighur tribunal. I sat through many of its hearings and found the whole process incredibly harrowing. Let us be clear that there will be amendment after amendment to every possible piece of legislation until the promise to hold to account those responsible for these most heinous crimes against humanity are actually honoured. So my first point is that continuing to source goods for the NHS from Xingang is clearly not consistent with the duties laid upon us in the convention on the crime of genocide.

16:00
My second point is on the goods themselves and the way in which they are being procured for the NHS. I wonder whether the Minister has had a chance to read this report which appeared in the Daily Telegraph newspaper:
“Ministers handed almost £150m to Chinese firms with links to alleged human rights abuses in Xingang amid a race for PPE after Covid hit.”
It goes on:
“The Health Department paid £122m to Winner Medical, which uses cotton produced by a supplier that works in the controversial region and has ties to a paramilitary group accused by the US of using forced labour. Another £19m contract went to pharmaceutical firm China Meheco and £16.5m was paid to Sinopharm, both of which have been linked to labour programmes in the province.”
Elsewhere in that same article, they state that China Meheco lists the XPCC—which stands for Xingang Production and Construction Corps—as an account payable in a company report. It also lists XPCC as a company used for labour services. Sinopharm is listed as a participant in the Xingang labour transfer programme—a scheme that involved the forced relocation of Uighur workers across the country.
Just before Christmas, as we heard, the United States Congress passed bipartisan legislation, creating a rebuttable presumption that all goods sourced from Xingang are unethically produced, unless clear and persuasive evidence could be provided to the contrary. This is another Five Eyes country, and one of our closest allies. Have we reached a different conclusion? Are we working alongside them? Are we co-ordinating what we are doing? Notwithstanding a fierce corporate lobbying campaign opposing that measure, which was bipartisan and passed bicamerally—unusual in itself, in the United States— including companies such as Coca-Cola, which has a large facility in Xingang and is a sponsor of the Winter Olympics which open this week on 4 February, the United States Senate unanimously voted on 15 December to ban the import of products which may have originated, in whole or in part, in Xingang. Clearly, Congress has gone much further that this modest amendment to the Health and Care Bill. But our cross-party proposal is driven by the same ethical considerations, and by concern for the probity of the NHS and concern to UK interests. As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, has reminded us, we have become far too reliant and far too dependent on goods that undercut British manufacturing and which, by using slave labour, will always be able to do so.
The noble Lord referred to my question, which extracted the ministerial reply that we had bought 1 billion lateral flow tests from China. What Ministers declined to answer in that question was how much the tests cost the taxpayer, or to provide the names of the companies involved. The International Relations and Defence Committee, on which I serve, refers to the 1 billion tests in its September report, and has asked the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office for further information. Perhaps the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, will provide that information today and tell us how much the 1 billion lateral flow tests cost, who manufactured them and how many more tests have been bought from China since the question was answered last July?
I refer noble Lords to an extract from the book written by the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, who has sadly now retired from your Lordships’ House, and Alina Chan. In Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19, they point to some of the companies which have produced lateral flow tests and their links and associations, saying:
“according to an investigation by the Associated Press, the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention sold the rights to develop and distribute testing kits for the new virus to three little-known companies, all from Shanghai, for 1 million RMB each (roughly $150,000). GeneoDx Biotech, Huirui Biotechnology and BioGerm Medical Technology were relatively small companies, but with personal connections to CDC officials … They were given exclusive rights to develop testing kits based on the genome of the virus, which was not released to other companies.”
I pressed the Government in other questions at the time to be more transparent about where the money was going, who was benefiting and in what ways we were trying to establish how these things were being made. In a reply to me last August, the then Minister said that, in department audits, suppliers had been assessed
“as Acceptable (C) overall, with further improvement needed with regards to social management systems and working hours. No evidence of child labour, forced labour or unethical business behaviour were identified over the course of these audits”.
Could the Minister enlarge on what the C grade represents and what was done to insist on the “further improvement” required? Can he tell us what on-the-ground access his department had to warrant its assertion about the use of forced labour and unethical business behaviour? Did it examine the report published by the Daily Telegraph prior to that question saying that the firms producing PPE were directly linked to Uighur human rights abuses?
On 13 December, I asked the current Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, whether any person or organisation would be
“censured for defaults involving the 47 VIP public contracts for facemasks and surgical gowns”
and what steps the Government had taken
“in connection with defaults associated with their contract with PPE MedPro.”
In the reply of 19 January, I was again told that details about PPE contracts are “considered commercially sensitive”. Why is it that the Treasury can account for the £4.3 billion lost in fraud under the Covid support scheme but is unable to identify loss on PPE? Even worse, I was told in the same reply that:
“We have no plans to censure a single individual or organisation.”
This is completely unacceptable. The noble Lord, Lord Agnew, resigned as a Minister because of a lack of accountability. The Minister, who has been very receptive and open—I am grateful to him for his engagement with me on these things—has given me a reply today in which he says that the department
“is seeking to recover monies paid to PPE Medpro in relation to a contract for the provision of gowns.”
I will not read the entire reply, but I would like to ask the Minister for confirmation that the outcome of mediation and any proposed settlement will be subject to ministerial approval and made public so that we can learn the details; and that, if acceptable terms cannot be reached, legal action will be pursued to recover public funds—we are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds of public money.
Today the Minister might also like to provide the House with information about the £270 million spent on Zhende and Inivos products which are faulty and cannot be used in the NHS. Where were they made and in what conditions? Who gave the green light to spend that money? Have we no plans to censure those involved in those purchases either? Are we now seriously going to try and sell faulty products, euphemistically described as excess stock, to developing countries, as I have been told in a response from the department? What are we thinking?
Parliament has a right to know what we are doing to recoup taxpayers’ money and to radically overhaul and clean up procurement by insisting on total transparency and accountability. Can the Minister tell us whether the Guardian report that PPE Medpro may have made in excess of £40 million gross profits from its DHSC contracts is correct? Such transactions have been outside usual procurement practices and frequently devoid of transparency or detail about the provenance of goods and by whom and how they were manufactured. What have the Government done to satisfy themselves that no fraud was involved and that the items were not, in whole or in part, made by victims of slave labour and genocide?
These are my two principal reasons for supporting this amendment. Our duty is to combat, and not to collaborate in, genocide; and our duty is also to protect the NHS from exploitation and profiteering. There have been many reports about the use of slave labour in Xinjiang, even prompting the then Foreign Secretary to moot the possibility of import controls. The House should not underestimate the scale and size of the vested interests involved.
We know that around one in five cotton garments sold globally contain cotton or yarn from Xinjiang, and the region also manufactures a significant amount of the world’s polysilicon to make solar panels and smartphones. As with the strengthening of the Modern Slavery Act’s provisions on supply-chain transparency—the subject of a Private Member’s Bill that I have introduced, which is awaiting Second Reading—big vested interests have done all in their power behind the scenes to prevent the promises of Ministers from being acted on.
This amendment is proportionate; it defies the lobbyists who seek to subvert the intention of Parliament; it puts power back into the hands of Parliament and the Secretary of State; it ensures integrity in our procurement policies; it protects the NHS from the taint of association with genocide or slave labour; and it creates a framework and timescale for taking action. If the Government decide to resist the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, will be prepared to test the opinion of the House when we reach Report.
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Portrait Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)
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My Lords, I support this amendment, so ably moved by my noble friend Lord Blencathra and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Noble Lords have already heard the well-versed and evidenced arguments put forward and, while the amendment does not specifically refer to China, there can be no doubt that the well-documented example of the horrific treatment of the Uighur people in Xinjiang province would fall under its scope.

We have all heard today about the hundreds of millions of pounds-worth of healthcare goods that have flooded into this country since the start of the pandemic, much of it sourced from China. We would expect our Government to make every effort to disentangle our supply chains from implication in these atrocities, so was any due diligence carried out throughout our procurement process? This amendment would correct that oversight if it was not.

I do not want to repeat everything that has already been said by others, but I want to highlight the importance of the risk-assessment aspect in proposed new subsection (3). I anticipate that the Minister will highlight the work already being done by government departments to weed out companies with slave labour in their supply chains. Perhaps sometimes they are being asked to perform an impossible task, because I understand that supply chains in the Uighur region of China are almost entirely opaque. It is suggested that the area is rife with systematic forced labour, that audits there are worthless and that workers live in fear and terror of telling the truth. Indeed, as we have already heard, the US Government have just passed legislation presuming that all imports from the region are tainted unless proven otherwise.

Surely, it is our responsibility, as a signatory to the genocide convention, to do all that we can to prevent genocide when there is a serious risk of it taking place. This amendment builds on the work that we have already done in this regard. We cannot continue business as usual with China or any other state that condones or supports genocide. I ask the Government to act urgently to ensure that our supply chains are not tainted by goods made with Uyghur forced labour. I ask Members on all sides of your Lordships’ House to join us and reassert our commitment to global human rights and to provide the protection against genocide, wherever it is needed, by supporting this amendment.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, I too support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. As we are really talking about procurement in the NHS, I should declare my interest as president of the Health Care Supply Association.

It is entirely reasonable to use NHS procurement rules in this way. The noble Earl knows that Clause 70 is intended to give wide discretion to Ministers to bring in a new procurement regime. I see no reason why this cannot be part of that regime.

I sometimes think the NHS operates in isolation from what is happening in the world, but it cannot operate in isolation from the terrible things that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and other noble Lords have spoken about. I hope the noble Earl will be sympathetic.

16:15
I have a later group of separate but linked amendments that would serve to prevent UK citizens from complicity in forced organ harvesting in China. This is the link to this group, because over the years evidence has grown, from whistleblowers and authoritative sources, of the scale of this crime against humanity.
In June this year, 12 UN special procedures experts raised the issue of organ harvesting with the Chinese Government, in response to credible information that Falun Gong practitioners—Uighurs, Tibetans, Muslims and Christians—were being killed for their organs in China, and that that has become a huge billion-pound export trade.
My noble friend Lady Kennedy referred to the Uyghur Tribunal and I had the privilege of meeting Sir Geoffrey on a number of occasions. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about the harrowing experience of listening to the evidence, and reading that report is harrowing indeed:
“Hundreds of thousands of Uyghurs—with some estimates well in excess of a million—have been detained … without any … reason, and subjected to acts of unconscionable cruelty, depravity and inhumanity. Sometimes up to 50 have been detained in a cell of 22 square metres so that it was not possible for all to lie on concrete … floors, with buckets for toilets to be used in view of all … observed at every moment by CCTV … Many of those detained have been tortured for no reason … Many… have been shackled by heavy metal weights at their feet … Detained women—and men—have been raped and subjected to extreme sexual violence … Detainees were fed with food barely sufficient to sustain life and … Detainees were subjected to solitary confinement in cells permanently dark or permanently lit, deprived of sleep for days at a time and ritually humiliated.”
Reading and reflecting on this must lead us to the conclusion that we should not be allowing our public authorities to do business in this way. I really hope the Government will be sympathetic to this.
Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg (Con)
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My Lords, I rise to speak briefly in support of this amendment and, in doing so, I apologise that I was not here at the Second Reading, although I have followed the progress of the Bill carefully.

Last Thursday at Oral Questions, in response I think to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the Minister spoke of the importance of examining the provenance of health equipment that comes to the UK. He said his department was working

“to ensure that it is not from regions where there is slave labour, or where the Muslim Uighurs are being persecuted by the Chinese Government.”—[Official Report, 27/1/22; col. 439.]

We must of course ensure that the products and equipment in our supply chain are ethically sourced. Last week, my noble friend acknowledged that we need to do more here, and this amendment gives us the opportunity to do just that. Noble Lords speaking before me clearly and comprehensively laid out why we should avoid procurement from such areas.

All UK government departments need to do more to look carefully at their supply chains, but we must start somewhere. The DHSC, with its scale of procurement, and the reports we have seen of the prevalence of Uighur forced labour in PPE and healthcare supply chains during the Covid-19 pandemic, seems to be the right place to start.

The issue of genocide has been subject to lengthy debate in your Lordships’ House, not least during the Trade Bill last year. While a form of compromise was reached, it is limited to countries with which we will be entering free trade agreements. That is not a solution for procurement for many of the countries with which the DHSC does business. Importantly, this amendment would create a process, a mechanism, through which the UK Government could be required to assess regions for “serious risk of genocide”, and indeed publish their assessment. That process is, so far, sadly lacking in this country.

The UK has a responsibility to do all it can to protect against human rights violations and genocide. We also have a responsibility to our NHS workers and those who use the health service to make sure that we give them ethically sourced products. As my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, UK taxpayers do not want to be part of genocide.

We need to see deeds, not words. This amendment will significantly reduce the likelihood that the Government will procure goods or services from regions where there is a serious risk of genocide. It will bring the UK a step closer to developing a comprehensive framework in responding to allegations of genocide, and will meaningfully engage its obligations to prohibit, prevent and punish perpetrators of genocide. It does so in a limited, proportionate, reasonable and modest way.

I hope the Government will properly consider this amendment, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response, and I know that he will have heard support for it from all sides of your Lordships’ House.

Lord Rooker Portrait Lord Rooker (Lab)
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My Lords, the Government should embrace this amendment. I want to concentrate on the traceability argument of goods, and in particular cotton imports. Without good traceability, the genocide convention obligations cannot be met.

To date, I have had two very poor replies on cotton traceability from the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone of Boscobel, at Question Time on 21 October, and a Written Answer on 24 January. Of course, as has already been said, we are miles away from the policies of the United States Government, who have taken a proactive approach to imports from regions of China where we know human rights abuses take place. As has been said, on 23 December, President Biden signed the legislation into law.

It simply cannot be left to commercial companies to satisfy themselves. It is crucial to understand the geographic origins of products and conditions of production. The two things are intertwined and they both need to be dealt with. There has to be a robust methodology that is reliable even when working with partners that may be untrustworthy or unco-operative. The use of middlemen such as commodity traders and the practice of blending fibre from multiple sources create additional difficulty.

Traceability—both what is termed as upstream, starting at the farm, or downstream, to map products back to their origins—is currently used. However, full visibility of the supply chain using these methods is impossible, and especially so in restricted areas such as Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. It is just impossible to do in the normal way you would look at traceability. If the Minister is in doubt about this, his department should read the report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies of November last year entitled:

“New Approaches to Supply Chain Traceability (implications for Xinjiang and Beyond)”.


My conclusion from that is that paper-based traceability and supplier information is a non-starter for effective due diligence.

In addition, there is abundant evidence that the Chinese Communist Party, which owns China, actually launders Xinjiang cotton, either semi-finished or blended, into international supply chains. This is set out in considerable detail in the November 2021 paper by Laura T. Murphy of Sheffield Hallam University entitled:

“Laundering Cotton: How Xinjiang Cotton is Obscured in International Supply Chains”.


In 2019, it was established that 85% of Chinese cotton was from Xinjiang. That means that cotton from the Uyghur region of China accounts for 22%—a fifth—of cotton worldwide. What was once grown or reared retains details of its origins—in a way, this is the test. However, it takes more than a paper trail to identify as such. It requires forensic work; chemical, isotope and genetic tracing and other methods that I will not list here are all crucial.

I will give a good example. From 1,000 garment samples collected across the world in high-street fashion shops involving nearly 50 brands, Oritain Global Ltd detected that in Vietnam, Cambodia and Bangladesh, the cotton in the garments had a mixture from Xinjiang of between 6.5% and 25%. Chinese cotton was 41% consistent with Xinjiang. Some 10% of samples of products tested in the UK were consistent with Xinjiang cotton. The UK has a high rate of imports from Bangladesh, where 25% of the cotton was from Xinjiang. It is worth pointing out that India has zero consistency with Xinjiang; India has cleared out Chinese cotton fabrication.

As to the practicalities for the health service, in 2019, the UK imported furniture, bedding and mattresses from China to the tune of £2.3 billion and imported apparel and clothing accessories to the tune of £3.7 billion. Has the NHS used beds and mattresses containing cotton from China or from suppliers using connections with China or other countries known to have a mixture of Xinjiang cotton? Where did all the Nightingale equipment appear from so quickly? As I asked last week, without any warning, how much China cotton is involved in NHS uniforms and accessories? Others have mentioned face masks, but as I pointed out last Thursday, more nurses means more uniforms.

Has the NHS supply chain used Oritain’s element analysis to check, or is it just relying on suppliers’ paperwork to check what would be only part of the supply chain? Companies and Governments need a degree of independence in assessing traceability and to not rely on companies doing it themselves. Some of the supply chains are five or six levels removed, so they cannot possibly have faith in each level and know the details from manufacturers, middlemen, traders, and agents. With the best will in the world and good corporate responsibility, checking the paper trail of five, six or seven levels will not work.

As I said earlier, the way to do it is to work on the basis that a product that was once grown or reared holds signs of its origins, and today’s advanced technology can do it. The technology of element analysis used by Oritain claims that it can tell the difference between two tea estates with a dirt road between them—it is so good and effective. For those who want more, I suggest the long read in the Guardian of 16 September 2021, which is where I came across the use of the technology. I have since met with senior reps of Oritain Global Ltd to better brief myself. Modern forensic technologies must be used, as is now required in the USA. The United States is using these technologies. Why are they not being used in the UK? The NHS, as the largest employer in Europe, should have a leading role.

It is not normal for the origin of cotton to be stated on labels. Of those 1,000 products which I mentioned were checked by Oritain last year, only 3% had the information on the label and, as a warning, the higher quality a product which attracts higher prices is more likely to be consistent with Xinjiang than cheaper items, so you must be really careful what you are looking at. Non-disclosure is almost the norm and of those who do disclose there is a high percentage of non-compliance, so labels and paperwork are not the answer.

Technology is the answer, and the ball is in the Government’s court. The old-fashioned gentlemen’s agreements and systems we are used to will not work. Modern technology is thought to be 95% accurate in identifying where an item was grown or reared. Only with that degree of information can the NHS satisfy the convention obligations. Otherwise, it will not work. The Government ought to embrace the amendment and then the new technology.

Lord Polak Portrait Lord Polak (Con)
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My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friends Lord Blencathra and Lady Hodgson, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, for tabling this important amendment. My noble friend Lady Sugg referred to last Thursday. That was 27 January, when the world came together for Holocaust Memorial Day in memory of the millions murdered under Nazi persecution. Members in the other place stood up and pledged “Never forget, never again”, while we in your Lordships’ Chamber sadly did not find a way to mark the day. Today, I repeat that promise.

Since the start of the pandemic, it seems that millions of pounds-worth of healthcare equipment have been procured from Xinjiang, despite the reports of the appalling treatment of the Uighurs. Will the Minister tell us whether our pandemic response benefited from procured equipment exported from Xinjiang?

16:30
It is rather macabre to think that some of the medical supplies used to save lives here could have been obtained at the possible expense of Uighur lives. I therefore support this amendment totally, particularly requiring the Government to perform a risk assessment on the risk of genocide in any region from which they source goods, and ensuring that the risk assessment takes no longer than two months.
I have stood before your Lordships many times and said that we must take action in calling out and ending the atrocities in Xinjiang. I have always maintained that our condemnation should not be words alone. This amendment puts those words into action. I hope that the Minister will do all he can to persuade his department to support it.
Baroness Chakrabarti Portrait Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)
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My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, the supporters of his amendment and everyone who has spoken in this debate. I am sure that the Minister will reflect before he replies on the significance of an amendment to a major piece of government legislation that has garnered such disparate support from across the House.

I am conscious that the NHS is something that everyone in the United Kingdom is very proud of. It is a source of genuine patriotism—and a patriotism that is neither militaristic nor xenophobic. We have sometimes fierce arguments about how it should be organised but fewer arguments about it being a wonderful thing. It is perhaps the greatest experiment in solidarity and collaboration in human history. It even has “national” in its title, which is good for patriotism yet it is more than national because, in truth, its proud history is one of a service built on the contributions of people who came to this country from all over the world. It is a model of healthcare admired by people from all over the world.

As I heard noble Lords from across the Chamber speaking in recent minutes, I was reminded of the contrast between the London Olympics and the Beijing Olympics. The latter was a great display of military strength, while the other was something a little more novel. I was proud to take part in the opening ceremony, and remember the nurses bouncing on NHS beds. It drew huge amusement from parts of the press but was a reminder of the example that Britain can offer the world.

The poor old noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, often has to address this human rights-interested Chamber on difficult issues of international relations when they rub up against the instinct to protect human rights. It is a difficult equation for successive Governments of either stripe. However, here there is an opportunity, because the NHS is such a big customer. This Bill is about being an ethical provider of health services to our people. In parts, it is about being an ethical employer. Now we might aspire to be an ethical customer on the world stage as well.

Noble Lords have done better than I can to explain the morality behind this concern about the Uighurs, but my noble friend Lord Rooker offered the practical element to go alongside the moral arguments.

In closing, I say to the Minister before he answers that, if there are some technical concerns from those who advise him about the precise drafting of the amendment, these can no doubt be resolved. I feel sure that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and his supporters—and those who support them—would no doubt work with the Minister to ensure that something that does the trick comes forward on Report. What a golden opportunity this is to set an example on how one can walk this tightrope between realism and human rights protection, and what a great thing it would be for this Committee to be able to achieve.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, a very compelling and, indeed, conclusive case has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and other speakers in favour of this amendment, and I hope the Government will accept it. I particularly commend the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that the answer is there for us in science. I have only one question, because I have no intention of repeating all the excellent comments that have been made. This morning, I went into the Bishops’ Bar and picked up a box of lateral flow tests. On the box was written, “Made in China”. Can the Minister explain what efforts have been made to ensure that noble Lords, in their attempt to protect others and themselves, are not unwittingly supporting forced labour and slavery?

Baroness Redfern Portrait Baroness Redfern (Con)
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My Lords, I rise briefly to support this amendment, and I apologise for not attending Second Reading.

This amendment requires the Government to perform a risk assessment on whether there is a “serious risk of genocide” in a region from which it is sourcing—not to make a genocide determination. It is the UK’s obligation under international law, as a signatory to the genocide convention, to perform such a risk assessment. We have heard many harrowing stories, which we find so difficult even to believe. Uighur identity is being erased: future generations are lost through forced birth-prevention measures, and millions have been detained, tortured and violated in concentration camps.

The incorporation of this amendment would send a clear signal to both the Chinese authorities and the international community that the UK is committed to ridding its supply chains of forced labour, fulfilling its obligations under international law and protecting Uighur people from genocide. The amendment is an opportunity to offer the Uighur community accountability for genocide and crimes against humanity, and I support it.

Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
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My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, I apologise to the House for not participating on Second Reading. This is one of those rare opportunities for me to be at one with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. These opportunities do not arise very often, but today is one of them. Of course we were at one in the debate on the then Trade Bill, and I very much welcome the continued focus on this issue, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. On the Trade Bill, we—I with my amendment—attempted to ensure that we were not simply trapped by this very strict legal definition of genocide and that we focused on broader human rights issues, particularly when it comes to trade. We find the reason for that when we ask—I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Polak—“When does genocide start?” How does it start? It often starts by the use and harassment of words; it starts with words.

In quite a few debates I have given books a plug. I am currently reading “Chips” Channon’s diaries, which I would recommend. Reading his discussions during the 1938 crisis, I was struck by how anti-Semitism was just common talk, and how people were portraying Hitler as not that bad, as well as some of the incidents: Kristallnacht was “unfortunate”. It is those sorts of things that we really do need to focus on, and I hope that the Minister will be able to do that.

This debate is about probing government action; it is not simply saying, “This is our amendment: take it.” This is Committee stage, and I hope we can use it properly to probe the Government because, sadly, I often think—today of all days—that we do not have joined-up government and there is too often a gap between what the Government say and what they do. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, only 12 months ago the Foreign Secretary, now Deputy Prime Minister—who knows what he will be tomorrow—announced business measures regarding human rights abuses in Xinjiang.

I have read the BMA’s briefing, which focused on ethically sourced procurement. That is what this debate is about. It is not just about the definition of genocide. The National Health Service, is, I think, the biggest single procurer of medical products in the world. It has huge opportunities to influence trade and price. We have debates about price and my noble friend Lord Hunt focuses on that a lot. With that leverage, the NHS has the opportunity to influence change. This debate is not about punishing China or the Chinese people but about influencing change and hoping that the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese Government will think twice about some of the actions they are taking. I hope today we will have an opportunity to probe what the Government are doing, look at what they have said and see what they have done.

Following his announcement in January 2021, Domonic Raab went to the Human Rights Council. There he said:

“The UK will live up to our responsibilities.”


He referred to

“measures aimed at ensuring that no company profiting from forced labour in Xinjiang can do business in the UK, and that no UK businesses are involved in their supply chains.”

That is absolutely right. The promised measures he outlined included

“a Minister led campaign of business engagement to reinforce the need for UK businesses to take action to address the risk.”

Have we seen that? Where is the evidence? I am not sure that I have seen it, even though I have asked numerous questions on the Modern Slavery Act about that.

Dominic Raab then referred to

“a review of export controls as they apply to Xinjiang to ensure the Government is doing all it can to prevent the exports of goods that may contribute to human rights abuses in the region.”

Here, I pick up the point mentioned by my noble friend Lord Hunt: this equipment could be used to do the very things he highlighted regarding organ transplants. I want to hear from the Minister: what are we doing on that commitment made 12 months ago? What are we doing at the WHO on investigating this abhorrent practice?

Dominic Raab also referred to

“the introduction of financial penalties for organisations who fail to meet their statutory obligations to publish annual modern slavery statements, under the Modern Slavery Act.”

I have repeatedly asked Ministers when and how that is happening, but, 12 months later, I have seen no evidence. As we heard in this debate, it is not as if that obligation is particularly hard to meet. It is not as if it says, “You won’t do this” and “You will do that”. It simply records what they are doing.

16:45
Dominic Raab further spoke of
“new, robust and detailed guidance to UK businesses on the specific risks faced by companies with links to Xinjiang, and underlining the challenges of conducting effective due diligence there.”
We have heard in this debate from my noble friend about what mechanisms could be used to ensure effective due diligence. It is not simply about asking somebody to say what they are doing, with vague promises, but a clear commitment from the Government.
The last point made by Dominic Raab—the Deputy Prime Minister—was that the Government will
“provide guidance and support to UK Government bodies to”
use public procurement rules to
“exclude suppliers where there is sufficient evidence of human rights violations in any of their supply chains.”—[Official Report, Commons, 12/01/21; cols. 161-62.]
Compliance, he said, will be mandatory for central government, non-departmental bodies and executive agencies. Where is the evidence, 12 months on from that Statement, that they will do this?
I strongly support this amendment; I will back it to the hilt. I will listen very carefully to what the Minister says but, if there are insufficient responses on what the Government has been doing over the last 12 months, I would hope that we will see more amendments on Report to make sure that the Government keep their word and hold to the commitment they have made.
There is lots more that I could say—I was going to repeat some of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad —but we have had a very strong debate and there is a clear view across the House that this is not a partisan issue. Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, is absolutely right. I will back him on this amendment, and let us ensure that the Government keep their word.
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe (Con)
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My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for enabling us to debate the serious and important issue of ensuring that health service procurement and supply chains are consistent with the United Kingdom’s international obligations. I have listened very carefully to the contributions from all noble Lords who have spoken.

I begin by making clear what the regulation-making power under Clause 70 is designed to do, and not do. The Clause 70 power is limited in scope to healthcare services and, with the exception of some mixed procurements, will not extend to the procurement of goods. The vast majority of healthcare services procured by the NHS are provided by domestic suppliers or, indeed, by the NHS itself.

However, there is a wider point to address in response to the contributions of noble Lords. As a party to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the UK is fully committed to the prevention and punishment of genocide as appropriate under the convention. Indeed, the UK is active in fulfilling its duties under the genocide convention. Given that the majority of mass atrocities occur in and around conflict, the Government believe that a focus on conflict prevention is the best means to prevent most mass atrocities. To that end, this Government adopt a consolidated, whole-of-government effort using our diplomatic, development, defence and law-enforcement capabilities to help find pathways to global peace and stability.

As my noble friend is well aware, it is the long-standing policy of the Government that any judgment as to whether genocide has occurred is a matter for a competent national or international court, rather than for Governments or non-judicial bodies. It should be decided after consideration of all the evidence available in the context of a credible judicial process.

Having said that, our policy on genocide determination does not prevent us taking robust action to address serious violations of human rights. The Government are clear that they expect all UK businesses to respect human rights throughout their operations, in line with the UN’s Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. In response to the guidelines, the UK is proud to be the first state to produce a national action plan, and we continue to develop our approach in line with the Modern Slavery Act 2015. Section 54 places a requirement on businesses with a turnover of £36 million or more to publish an annual modern slavery statement setting out the steps they have taken to prevent modern slavery in their operations and supply chains.

Following a public consultation, the Government committed to a package of measures to strengthen our transparency in supply chain requirements. This includes extending the reporting requirements to public bodies with a budget of £36 million or more to create public and private sector parity. The Government have led the way in this endeavour and, in 2020, the UK became the first country in the world to publish a government modern slavery statement, setting out the steps we have taken to identify and prevent modern slavery in our own supply chains. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, indicated that he had not seen evidence of action in this area. In November 2021, we published a progress report on how we have met the ambitious goals set out in that statement and, at the same time, each UK ministerial government department voluntarily published their first annual modern slavery statement. As the noble Lord mentioned, the FCDO and the Cabinet Office are also working together to introduce new guidance to UK government bodies to exclude suppliers where there is sufficient evidence of human rights violations in any of their supply chains. Further detailed guidance is being developed that will be mandatory for government contracting authorities.

The UK’s G7 presidency demonstrated how we are revitalising G7 co-operation to tackle the most pressing global challenges. At the meeting in Carbis Bay, in June 2021, G7 leaders reaffirmed their commitment to uphold human rights and committed to prevent, identify and eliminate forced labour in global supply chains. This was followed up by the G7 Trade Ministers’ meeting in October, building on those commitments to eradicate forced labour, protect victims and improve global supply chain transparency, including by upholding international labour standards in their own business operations and procurement policies. This is one of a number of recent, clear demonstrations of our continued leadership and commitment to ending human rights abuses in global supply chains.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, indicated that she did not think that the Department of Health and Social Care in particular was doing enough in this area, but if we look at the health service specifically, we see that the Department for Health and Social Care published a statement in October 2021 explaining the steps it has taken to identify, prevent and mitigate modern slavery within its own operations and supply chains for all goods and services that it procures. This aligns with the Cabinet Office guidance advising public sector contracting authorities on how to assess suppliers in terms of mitigating the risk of modern slavery. Contracts are normally placed in line with the department’s terms and conditions, which include clauses requiring good industry practice to ensure that there is no slavery or human trafficking in supply chains.

My noble friend also asked why the 2021 modern slavery statement did not cover the Vaccine Taskforce, PPE, UKHSA—formerly Public Health England—or test and trace contracts. Some indication of preventive steps taken in relation to these areas were included in the statement, and, as was outlined later in that statement, all areas will be covered in 2022 statements.

My noble friend, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Harris and Lady Kennedy, the noble Lords, Lord Alton, Lord Collins and Lord hunt, my noble friends Lady Hodgson and Lady Sugg, and others, raised issues about Xinjiang, in particular. The Government have taken robust measures in respect of UK supply chains. We have introduced new guidance for UK businesses on the risks of doing business in Xinjiang, supported by a programme of ministerial engagement, and we have announced enhanced export controls, as well as the introduction of financial penalties under the Modern Slavery Act. Taken together, these measures will help to ensure that no British organisations —government or private sector, deliberately or inadvertently—are profiting from or contributing to human rights violations against the Uighurs or other minorities.

I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked me a series of questions. If he will allow me, I will write to him on those that I am unable to answer today. The same applies to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, to whom I listened with great care.

For the multiple reasons that I have set out, I cannot accept my noble friend’s amendment. I hope, nevertheless, that I have been informative, and that he will have derived at least some reassurance from what I have said about the seriousness with which the Government view the issues around human rights violations, and the actions that we are taking.

Lord Blencathra Portrait Lord Blencathra (Con)
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My Lords, I am grateful to every noble Lord and noble Baroness who has taken part in the debate, every single one of whom spoke in favour of the amendment, apart from my noble friend Lord Howe—I perfectly understand that he had to adhere to the DHSC brief. I am certain that, if every other noble Lord were to speak in the debate, each one would support the amendment as well.

I am grateful for the particularly powerful speech of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, on determining the provenance of goods. Just as an aside, I can tell the House that, before Christmas, I thought I would impress my wife by trying to buy a couple of Oxford pillowslips myself, without troubling her. I wanted something with a thread count of over 400—for my delicate little skin, of course—and it took me hours and hours on the web to try to find a supplier among the major retailers that could guarantee that it would not be from Xinjiang province. I ended up contacting one supplier and asking, and three weeks later it replied by email guaranteeing me that the cotton was not from Xinjiang. I bought the pillowslips, and I still do not know whether or not I have been sold a pup—but they are quite nice against the skin. The noble Lord is right: we can tackle this problem only if we can trace provenance, and using DNA or other scientific evidence may be the best way to do that.

I do not want to go down the route of criticising some of the initial contracts that the Government entered into, as some noble Lords have done. There is no doubt about it: we were ripped off by some of them, we bought some duff equipment, and there will have been some dodgy contracts. But I remember that, at the time, every medic was calling out, “Get us PPE from wherever you can!” The whole world was scrabbling to get PPE. If your house is on fire, you do not spend ages on the web trying to find the cheapest fire bucket; you buy whatever you can. So I do not want to spend time on whether those contracts were value for money; that is for another day.

Someone asked: when did genocide start? I recall that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who was in the Chamber briefly, made a powerful speech a few months ago, saying that when genocide was happening, the whole world noticed that it was happening but did nothing about it, and then afterwards said that it must not happen again. We knew that Jews were being exterminated, and after 6 million were killed we said, “It must never happen again”. We knew what Pol Pot was doing, and afterwards we said, “It must never happen again”. We knew what Stalin was doing, and afterwards we said, “We must never let it happen again”. Then there was Srebrenica, and afterwards we said, “We must never let it happen again”. We know that genocide is taking place in Xinjiang province, yet we are just putting in place systems that may, one day, eventually, stop us trading with some of the people there who are committing genocide. That is not good enough. We must act faster than that.

17:00
We are no longer in a situation where we must frantically buy PPE from wherever in the world we can get it. As I read in the Times today, about 5 billion bits are going to be dumped. They are not fit for purpose, or we do not need them, or whatever. There is no rush to buy PPE from any dodgy source.
My noble friend relied on the standard government line that only an international court can pronounce a judgment of genocide. I do not think a majority in this House has ever accepted that. But we are not asking for that today; we are not asking for the Government to make a judgment on whether it is genocide or not. We are not asking for a declaration of that. We are not asking—as we did in the Trade Bill—for trade to be banned with parts of China if there was announcement of genocide. We are not asking for a Private Secretary to be involved. We are not even asking for the whole Government to stop trading with those committing torture, genocide and slave labour. We are simply asking that, in a very narrow case, the Department of Health be involved in this issue.
We are not asking the Government to ban trade, nor for a resolution to be passed by the House of Commons or this House so that trade suddenly stops. We are simply asking the Government to conduct an assessment. This is not my normal style of amendment. I normally like to begin with a bludgeon. I see a china shop, I attach my bull’s horns. But today, in this modest amendment, I am only using a little scalpel—an appropriate implement for this amendment—so that the Health Minister makes an assessment. Then, it would be entirely up to the Government to take action.
This was a modest little amendment, and I reject the arguments my noble friend had to advance. We are making statements and are supposed to be complying with all our own laws on slavery, yet we are still continuing to buy stuff from China. If my noble friend could tell me that within days or weeks, we will not be purchasing any more of this PPE from areas in Xinjiang province where we believe that genocide is taking place, I would be happy to withdraw the amendment and not bring it back on Report. But I think we have to return to this on Report, and I hope we shall then all make shorter speeches but have a massive vote, as we have had in the past, in favour of this amendment or something similar. Today, however, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment 213A withdrawn.
Clauses 71 to 74 agreed.
Schedule 12 agreed.
Clauses 75 to 79 agreed.
Amendment 214 not moved.
Clause 80: Hospital patients with care and support needs: repeals etc
Lord Davies of Brixton Portrait Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
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I was going to oppose the question that Clause 80 stand part of the Bill, but I thought the order of speakers was going to be somewhat different. I am sorry—I am looking to my Front Bench for guidance.

Baroness Wheeler Portrait Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
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My noble friend wrote to the Table Office and said that he did not want Clause 80 to stand part and that he wanted Amendment 217, which I shall be moving, to start this group, as it did originally.

Lord Davies of Brixton Portrait Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
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It would help the House not to proceed with the debate on whether Clause 80 stand part of the Bill. Then we can move on to the amendments.

Clause 80 agreed.
Amendments 215 and 216 not moved.
Amendment 217
Moved by
217: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Social care needs assessments
(1) A social care needs assessment must be carried out by the relevant local authority before a patient is discharged from hospital or within 2 weeks of the date of discharge.(2) Each integrated care board must agree with all relevant local authorities the process to apply for social care needs assessment in hospital or after discharge, including reporting on any failures to complete required assessments within the required time and any remedies or penalties that would apply in such cases.(3) Each integrated care board must ensure that—(a) arrangements made for the discharge of any patient without a relevant social care needs assessment are made with due regard to the care needs and welfare of the patient, and(b) the additional costs borne by a local authority in caring for a patient whilst carrying out social care needs assessments after a patient has been discharged are met in full.(4) The Secretary of State must publish an annual report on the effectiveness of assessment of social care needs after hospital discharge, including the number of patients readmitted within 28 days.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would create protections for the provision of social care needs assessments. It includes requiring an assessment to be carried out either before a patient is discharged from hospital or within two weeks of discharge; and requiring ICBs to agree a process for the provision of assessments.
Baroness Wheeler Portrait Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
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I am sorry about the confusion and I thank my noble friend Lord Davies for helping to clear it up.

Amendment 217 seeks to tighten up important safeguards for patients and their carers by adding a new clause after Clause 80. Clause 80 repeals current provisions under the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003 and regulations for hospital discharge, and paves the way for the discharge to access approach used particularly during the pandemic. I thank my noble friend Lord Davies for allowing me to move this amendment and not opposing the question that this clause stand part. I know he will want to speak at some point during the debate.

We know that during the pandemic the discharge to access approach led to some very welcome and innovative practices in getting patients out of acute settings in hospital into safer environments. The approach also led to tragedy, when untested patients or patients with Covid were transferred into care homes, causing the rapid spread of infection and, sadly, hundreds of deaths that could and should have been avoided. Evidence from key stakeholders to the Commons committee dealing with the Bill reflected a very mixed experience of this new process. In some areas the perennial and disruptive issues around delayed transfer had eased and the process was working relatively well, while others sought much tougher safeguards or the end to the discharge to access process altogether.

Amendment 217 seeks to ensure the vital safeguards needed, which are particularly important since Clause 80 repeals key provisions but is not exactly clear on what replaces them. We are therefore seeking to add a new clause after Clause 80, ensuring that social care needs assessments take place by the local authority either before a patient’s discharge from hospital or within two weeks of discharge. It also requires the ICB to agree a process for the assessments with the local authority.

The amendment covers the need to have due regard to the care needs and welfare of the patient and ensures that the NHS meets in full local authority costs of caring for a patient while a social care needs assessment is taking place if the patient is discharged without one. It provides for the ICB to agree the social care needs assessment process with the local authority, including timescales and reporting on any failures, and the remedies and penalties that would apply if assessments were not carried out in the required time. We also call for monitoring and reporting to Parliament annually by the Secretary of State on the effectiveness of social care needs assessments after discharge, including information on patients who have had to be readmitted after 28 days.

Our amendment fully complements the remaining important amendments in this group, which seek to ensure effective safeguards before and during the hospital discharge process for carers as well as their loved ones under Clause 80, and for young carers under Clause 148. We fully support Amendment 219 providing an “NHS duty to carers” and ensuring that

“their health and wellbeing is taken into account”.

We support Amendment 221 on protecting carers’ rights and ensuring full consultation with them before discharge as well as consideration of their needs in terms of safety, information, services and support. We support Amendment 225 on the definition of carers, which restates the current and hard-fought-for legal rights of carers and young carers under the Care Act 2014 and the Children and Families Act 2014, including those relating to the parents and carers of disabled children. We also support Amendment 269 on the important right of young carers to needs assessments under the Children Act 1989 and the essential need for local authorities to consider the appropriateness of discharging a patient from hospital into the care of a young person.

Like other noble Lords, I am very grateful to the excellent briefings from Carers UK and from young carers. I look forward to the contributions of noble Lords. On hospital discharge, we know the original discharge to access guidance was twice published without any reference to carers. I suppose we must be grateful that the two paragraphs that have subsequently been added reinstate the Care Act Part 1 references and provisions for carers.

But this is not enough to maintain and protect the hard-fought-for rights of carers. Hospital discharge can be one of the most difficult points in the care system for both existing and new unpaid carers, who are often taking on caring responsibilities without the right information and support or consideration of the impact on the carer as well as the loved one. Indeed, this can be the most traumatic time for new carers other than, of course, the shock of, and coming to terms with, their loved one’s sudden illness or disability. I can certainly endorse that from my own experience and my discussions with many other carers I meet. I know that carers still have many serious concerns about the current guidance and I will leave it to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley to vent the anger and frustration that is felt over some aspects of the guidance.

Amendments 221 and 225 seek to retain carers and young carers’ current and legal rights under the Community Care (Delayed Discharges) Act 2003—which contains a direct requirement to identify and consult the carer before issuing a discharge notice—and other key legislation, including the Children Act and the Children and Families Act, relating to young carers and parent carers of disabled children. I have added my name to Amendment 225. I feel particularly strongly about the need to include a definition of “carers” in the Bill and to stop the Government in particular but also the media and others using “carers” when, in fact, they are referring to care workers and not unpaid carers. As Carers UK says, absolute clarity and getting the terms right means a great deal to carers, especially when they have so few concrete rights. The two roles are not the same; they are different. There is huge frustration on this issue among carers as it feels as if we are going backwards rather than forwards. I want to know from the Minister what the Government are going to do to address this situation.

On young carers, with recent research showing that there could be as many as 800,000 children providing regular care, Amendment 269 from the noble Lord, Lord Young, to which my noble friend Lady Merron has added her name, takes on even greater importance to ensure that arrangements for discharging patients without a care needs assessment do not unduly impact young carers. It would also ensure that assessments by councils include consideration of whether it is appropriate for a younger carer to provide care. As well as that, support services must be in place for the safe discharge of the parent. We know that caring for parents, siblings and other relatives will have a significant impact a young carer—on school attendance, exam results and on their well-being and future careers. Every classroom in the country is likely to have at least one carer, and we must ensure that they are fully supported.

This is an important group of amendments and I look forward to the debate in the hope that the Minister will recognise the need for the important issues outlined in the amendments to be included in the Bill. To remind noble Lords, at the height of the pandemic, there were an estimated 13.6 million unpaid carers in the UK, 1.4 million of whom provide more than 50 hours of unpaid care a week. They are more than twice as likely to be in poor health than those without a caring responsibility, and 72% of carers did not have a break from caring during the pandemic and are exhausted and worn out. Carers deserve better than this—there is much to do. These amendments would at least ensure that their existing legal rights are protected and built on. I beg to move.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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I apologise for not forewarning noble Lords that the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, wish to speak remotely on this group of amendments.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
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My Lords, Amendment 219 in this group is in my name and I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley, Lady Watkins of Tavistock and Lady Meacher, for also signing it. Just before I speak to that amendment, can I say that I also support the other amendments in this group so helpfully introduced just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler? I find her clarification of the difference between care workers and unpaid carers particularly helpful and vital in this debate because unpaid carers are invisible.

My amendment deals with unpaid carers. I am very grateful for the briefing from Carers UK which estimates —as we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler—that there are as many as 13.6 million unpaid carers in the UK and, shockingly, over 1.4 million people providing over 50 hours of unpaid care a week. My brother looked after my mother for eight years, probably for 40 to 50 hours a week for most of that time. It meant that he just could not work at all. He is not alone.

I am sure we all know someone who is an unpaid carer. Even if they want to fulfil this role for their loved ones, society and the Government need to recognise the difficulties this gives the carers. The census in 2011 showed that carers are more than twice as likely to be in poor health than those who do not have a caring role—and they need support too, especially if they are isolated at home with the person they are caring for, whether that is day services or short in-patient respite care. Some 72% of carers have not had any breaks from caring during the pandemic and, as a result, are exhausted and worn out.

17:15
One of the aims of this Bill is to drive closer integration between health and social care. However, while one half of the system—social care—recognises carers legally as an equal part, the other—the NHS—does not. Many councils, local authorities and other caring institutions are doing their bit in the social care system to try to provide support for unpaid carers but, for effective integration across the system, both the NHS and social care need to have a statutory duty to have regard to carers and to promote their well-being.
In practice, the amendment would mean that NHS bodies must identify unpaid carers who come into contact with NHS services and ensure that their health and well-being are considered when decisions are made concerning the health and care of the person or people who they are caring for. This is a strategic provision that sets out an absolutely fundamental principle. It does not confer any rights on an individual carer; in other words, the NHS would have a duty to “think carer” and it would help to avoid situations where carers had been omitted—for example in discussions about hospital discharge guidance, and in ensuring proper “carer proofing”.
While unpaid carers provide the bulk of care, and are often relied upon, they are not systematically identified, supported or included in the NHS. We know that there is good practice in certain areas, but it is neither systematic nor systemic throughout the NHS. This lack of recognition and support for carers hinders evaluation and measurements of effectiveness. Closer integration between health and social care means that we now have the opportunity to manage this. We need invisible unpaid carers to become visible, so that everyone in the NHS “thinks carer” in everything they do with the person who they are caring for. By so doing, it will help the carer to fulfil their role. That is what my amendment seeks to do.
Lord Howarth of Newport Portrait Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I too would have preferred to speak later in the debate. I am sure that there are other noble Lords who have tabled amendments from whom the Committee would have preferred to hear nearer the outset, but I understand that the Deputy Chairman of Committees does not the flexibility to allow this, and I am of course grateful for the opportunity to speak.

As we know, the Covid-19 pandemic has led to a substantial rise in mental ill-health across the general population. Not surprisingly, this effect has been particularly hard-felt among unpaid carers. Many carers, already leading confined lives, have struggled with lockdown. Young carers have suffered with the loss of schooling and, when schools returned, trying to ensure that the people they care for have been shielded from the virus. Many were unable to go back to school for fear of bringing the virus home. Many from disadvantaged backgrounds did not have the digital resources to enable home schooling to be effective.

As we consider these amendments, I would like briefly to bring to the attention of noble Lords some remarkable work with carers being developed in Kingston upon Thames by Kingston Carers’ Network. KCN provides a range of crucial services to some 4,000 adult carers and 700 young carers from five to 18 years old. An important element of this support is nurturing the creativity of carers. Recognising, from the SHAPER research programme, which I mentioned in a previous debate, the positive effects of the arts on mental health and well-being, KCN is working with Rosetta Life to introduce three arts programmes for carers. Poetry and conversation provides co-created poetry workshops for adult carers, demystifying poetry and making it easier to approach. Participants have written and shared online poems about the challenges of caring. They have all said they would like more sessions.

KCN is trying to secure funding to participate with Rosetta Life in an international project called HeArt of Care. The idea is to offer master classes in dance, art making, photography, poetry and song writing for both adult and young carers. The project will create a website showing positive representations of the grace, dignity, compassion and joy of care and caregiving. The groups that would participate with KCN are a network of carers from Tyneside, Bristol Black Carers, Caregivers India and the End of Life Care Centre, Rwanda.

Another project is Room2Dream. Rosetta Life has a partnership with Dream a Dream in India, which works with 18 to 21 year-old carers who live in extreme poverty. This is one of 16 partnerships between young people in the UK and young people in refugee camps, conflict zones, hospices and adolescent psychiatric care. Young carers are offered poetry and song-writing workshops; they are given classes in film-making to enable them to create films about their poems and songs, and share them with other young carers not only in India but in, for example, Rwanda, Syria, Zimbabwe and Nepal. KCN is currently trying to secure funding for this initiative too.

These fledgling projects highlight the potential of the arts to improve the lives of unpaid carers and to enable them to have a voice that will be heard nationally and internationally. We should ensure that the system created through this legislation will underpin such ways to strengthen the resilience of carers and, beyond that, to enable them to flourish. These amendments will help. I look forward to a time when public policy, far more reliably and generously, supports unpaid carers to have better lives while they do their crucial work.

Baroness Pitkeathley Portrait Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)
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My Lords, for 25 years, I have been trying to bring the voice of carers into your Lordships’ House. I know, from the great amount of support I have received over those years, that the whole of your Lordships’ House agrees that we should recognise and value the enormous contribution of millions of people caring for families and friends, who do so much to support others, often at great personal cost. I make no apology for repeating the statistics: up to 13 million carers provide unpaid care worth £530 million a day, or £193 billion a year. They are indeed the backbone of our health and care system.

Ensuring that the health system identifies and supports carers in return is the least we can do, and that is the objective of the four amendments to which my name is added in this group. I am also very supportive of Amendment 217 moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. I thank her for her excellent introduction. I am strongly supportive of Amendment 219 and am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for tabling it.

As Members will know, I have long called for the NHS to have stronger duties towards unpaid carers. The NHS depends heavily on the role and input of people who care unpaid, usually family and friends but quite often neighbours, in supporting people with long-term conditions and disabilities in the community. Research by Carers UK shows that more than half of carers say they feel invisible to the NHS; more than half of carers providing significant amounts of care were not involved in decisions about hospital discharge; and the majority of carers, over 60%, were not given enough information and advice to care safely, at the point of hospital discharge, for the person they care for.

Placing a duty on the NHS with regard to carers is needed, as there is currently neither a systemic nor systematic approach towards carers in the NHS. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, pointed out, a duty to carers would help greater integration between services. Currently, local authority social care sees carers as equal partners in care and very much part of the system, whereas carers can be invisible to the health system. This duty would also lead to direct benefits to the health system, including improved health and well-being, improved satisfaction with services, and reduced admissions and those all-too-frequent readmissions. More practically, it would avoid the significant omissions of carers in recent guidance on hospital discharge, to which I now turn.

Amendment 221 proposes to insert a new clause to protect carers’ rights. As it stands, Clause 80 is of great concern. Almost incredibly—I can hardly believe I am saying this—it removes from carers rights that have been hard fought for over many years and which were enshrined in the Care Act 2014 and the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003. Many of your Lordships will remember those Acts and the many hours we spent on them.

This Bill repeals the legislation giving carers the fundamental right to have an assessment and ensuring that the services provided make sure that discharge from hospital is safe. There are endless horror stories about unsafe discharges and this issue has been debated extensively in another place. Hospital discharge is one of the most difficult points in the care system for unpaid carers, who often take on caring responsibilities without the right support.

Through Clause 80 in the Health and Care Bill, the Government are seeking to pass legislation that would enact the discharge to assess approach mentioned by my noble friend Lady Wheeler, which has recently been deployed by NHS England, by repealing, as I said, the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003. Amendment 221, in my name and supported by the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield—to all of whom I am very grateful—would ensure that, in advance of any patient being discharged from hospital, the relevant NHS body must identify and consult any carer who is about to provide or will be providing care. This would ensure that the local authority is not the only statutory body with responsibilities towards carers and that the NHS plays its equal part. It would also ensure that the carer in question has services that protect their well-being and that assumptions are not being made that they will automatically provide care—assumptions that are made far too often.

Carers’ organisations are extremely concerned that the inclusion of carers in this guidance for discharge to assess is insufficient to protect carers’ rights. I ask the Minister, on what evidence basis is the move to discharge to assess better for unpaid carers? The evidence seems to be that discharge to assess is worse. The Government’s own impact assessment of the Bill recognises that it will lead to many carers having to take on even more care. It states:

“There is an expectation that unpaid carers might need to allocate more time to care for patients who are discharged from hospital earlier. For some, this may result in a … reduction in work hours and associated financial costs.”


Are the Government really suggesting that carers go on to benefits—the carer’s allowance, for example, which is only £67 a week and recognised as a pathway to poverty?

I am sure the Minister is also aware that if a carer gives up work to care, they do not immediately get any benefits. That leaves them without any income at all. Or are the Government suggesting in their impact assessment that discharge to assess is better for carers by suggesting they take unpaid leave from work, in the process passing on the costs of hospital discharge to employers? Giving up work to care hurts the economy and costs businesses money in terms of recruitment and retention. So I would really like the Government to explain the thinking on this one, because I have lost count of the number of Ministers who have stood at the Dispatch Box and agreed with me that the best thing you can do for carers is enable them to stay in paid work as long as possible. So will the Minister please explain that to me—or better yet, be prepared to explain it to a group of carers that I am happy to arrange to meet him?

I turn now to Amendment 225, on the definition of a carer, which will be spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. It may seem unbelievable, but when I started in the carers’ movement in the mid-1980s, the word “carer” was unknown. Yes, it was not even in the dictionary, and every time you typed “carer”, your spellcheck corrected it to “career”. Now the word is everywhere and, in a way, the unpaid carers movement is a victim of its own success, because everyone wants to be called a carer and it is increasingly used to describe paid care workers. Carers themselves actually have difficulty in identifying themselves as a carer—“I’m not a carer, I’m a mother, a husband, a daughter”, is what they say. This lack of identification is an obstacle to them accessing support, so a proper definition is vital and it must be all-encompassing, as set out in the amendment. We fought very hard to get these definitions acknowledged in statute, for example the Care Act 2014, and it is important that the word “carer” encompasses parent carers and young carers.

I point out that the purpose of this amendment is not to create anything new. It uses only existing legislative references. Its purpose is to ensure that the definition of carers in the Bill is entirely clear, so I see no possible reason for the Government to reject it.

17:30
I turn to Amendment 269 and will speak briefly on young carers, as I know this will be ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. There are an estimated 800,000 young carers across the United Kingdom. That may be an underestimate, but at least it is an improvement on the days when a Minister of State at the Department of Health told me firmly that there was no such thing as a young carer.
Remarks I made about the removal of carers’ rights because of the repeal of former legislation apply very much to young carers, because they are particularly vulnerable at the point of hospital discharge. They are normally much less likely to be identified. This legislation removes the requirement on NHS trusts to consult young carers and have processes in place to identify them. We really must amend this; otherwise, young carers will slip through the net far too often.
Compared with local authorities, the NHS has always lagged behind in the recognition of carers, yet the NHS depends, as we all do, on their contribution. The Minister has always done his best to acknowledge the carer contribution and their need for support. I hope he will do so today by accepting this amendment.
Baroness Hollins Portrait Baroness Hollins (CB)
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and her powerful speech. I support the amendments in this group and will speak to my Amendment 225. First, I declare an interest as an unpaid carer myself, who has had to take on considerable additional caring responsibilities as a result of the pandemic. I enjoyed the description of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, of the use of poetry, because it is certainly a new hobby of mine, which I found very helpful during those long months of caring.

Mencap’s survey from the first wave of the pandemic in 2020 found that four in five carers of people with learning disabilities were taking on much more care of such people in their families because of the loss of paid support and daily activities for their family members. For many, it will take many months, even years, to return to pre-Covid levels of paid support to support those carers.

During the pandemic, care and carers were often spoken about as synonymous with care homes. I found it very discouraging as an unpaid carer myself to think that it was so little understood in government communications about the pandemic. I tabled this amendment to ensure clarity regarding to whom the Bill refers when it uses the term “carers”. As the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, explained, it does this by providing existing definitions of carers that are present in related legislation. I too thank Carers UK for its helpful briefing and support.

The amendment is necessary because there is so much confusion about the term “carers”. It is used to describe paid care workers, who I prefer to describe as support workers, or perhaps carer support workers, but that is not the same as caring for a family member and caring about a family member, which is a central part of the role.

The amendment is necessary for another reason: the inclusion of parent carers and young carers more systematically, where appropriate, in the Bill’s consultation and involvement provisions. This should drive better practice and outcomes for all concerned as well as providing clarity.

The provisions in the Bill relating to carers to which this amendment refers do not mean that all groups of carers defined here must be consulted or involved for all services, but only where appropriate. It does, however, provide clarity. The Health and Social Care Act 2012, on which the legislation builds, did not define carers either, which in hindsight it probably should have. This is therefore an opportunity to refine the legislation based on this experience.

Carers UK’s view is that this amendment would improve the clarity and delivery of policy and practice. Family and friends who provide care often put their needs at the back of the queue, and yet the NHS would collapse without them. As already set out, young carers face particular health inequalities and challenges in caring. Evidence from the Children’s Society shows that one in three young carers has a mental health issue and 80% of young carers felt more isolated during the pandemic.

The amendment has the broad support of a variety of different organisations that deliver services and support to carers, and which would welcome this clarity. As well as Carers UK, this includes the Patients Association, MS Society and many local carers’ organisations. As they are the organisations which will be implementing the legislation, supporting and informing carers and providing clarity is essential.

When this issue was raised in Committee in the House of Commons, the Minister said that “carer” should be defined in its everyday sense as unpaid carer. However, we already have sound legislation, which can be referred to, that defines carers. We need to ensure that the muddle of terms created during the pandemic is undone. I ask the Minister to define carers clearly in the Bill by accepting this amendment and to recognise the hugely invaluable role that carers play in our society.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my new room-mate, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and I agree with every word that she has just said. I also agree with the other speeches that we have heard in favour of the various amendments. I pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for her tireless campaign over 40 years on behalf of carers.

I have added my name to Amendment 219 but I will focus on my Amendment 269, which focuses on young carers. I am grateful to the three noble Baronesses who have added their names. Might I be allowed a word on one line in Clause 80, whose future I thought we were debating in this group but which has now been incorporated into the Bill? The line is:

“The Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc) Act 2003 is repealed”.


Noble Lords with long memories may remember that Bill. At the time, I said it was the worst I had seen in 30 years. Instead of doing what this Bill seeks to do —to bring together health and social care to facilitate closer co-operation—it established an antagonistic relationship between the NHS on the one hand and social services on the other by enabling one part of the public sector unilaterally to fine another part. It was a friendless piece of legislation, heavily criticised in your Lordships’ House, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who had the misfortune to pilot it through, will doubtless confirm.

At the end, my noble friend Lord Howe said, nearly 20 years ago:

“On a more philosophical level, we need to ask ourselves whether this system of financially driven imperatives is what we want to see pervading the fabric of our public services wherever the NHS and social services interact. I am clear that it should not”.—[Official Report, 17/2/03; col. 929.]


How appropriate that, 20 years later, my noble friend helps to put the final nail in the coffin of that Bill. However, it had one redeeming feature: the obligation to assess prior to discharging a patient from hospital. However, as drafted, as other noble Lords have said, the proposals could have the unintended consequence of weakening protections for children who look after adult relatives.

My amendment is about young carers and is shaped by my experience when in another place of working with Andover Young Carers. Children barely in their teens were combining education with caring for disabled parents. The organisation was based in a small bungalow on a local authority estate, and it did heroic work, forging closer links with schools and children’s services. Some of the children spent more than 30 hours each week looking after parents and elderly relatives—almost the equivalent of a full-time job—as well as often having caring responsibilities for younger siblings. They cooked, did the housework, shopped, collected prescriptions, leaving little or no time to enjoy their childhood. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, spoke movingly about the work of young carers in Kingston.

According to research from 2018, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, told us, there are more than 800,000 young carers in the UK. Recent figures show that 180,000 children in England who care for an ill or disabled relative are missing out on support, simply because they are not known to their local authority. Hence the need for this amendment which ensures that young carers are identified before adults are sent home from hospital to be looked after by them. If contact with adult carers is necessary, as we have heard, it is doubly necessary for young carers.

This is because we have clear evidence from Barnardo’s—I am grateful for its briefing—which shows that adults are being discharged from hospital into the care of children, without first making sure that these children are aware of their new responsibilities and that they have the support necessary to enable them to discharge them. I fear this is set to only get worse, placing more caring responsibilities on small shoulders, unless the Bill as currently drafted is amended.

The Care Act 2014 gave a young carer under the age of 18 the right to a needs assessment and placed a duty on local authorities to take reasonable steps to identify young carers in their area who may need support. Yet, in its report Still Hidden, Still Ignored, Barnardo’s found that young carers were still slipping through the net. Its finding is reinforced by the latest CQC survey, which found that 21% of people did not have their family or home situation taken into account when staff prepared them for discharge, a point referred to in the excellent paper which many noble Lords received today from Dr Moore at the University of Manchester.

This amendment places an obligation on the NHS to ascertain whether a patient will be cared for primarily by a young carer and, if so, to contact the local authority concerned for an assessment and the necessary support. This will not delay discharge but would ensure that hospital staff ask if a child under 18 will be the primary carer. If the answer is yes, the hospital should contact the relevant local authority which will ensure that a needs assessment is carried out.

I know the Government have made positive steps to ensure that the needs of young carers are recognised in the guidance which will accompany this Bill, and for that I am grateful. However, without a clear duty on hospitals to establish whether a patient is being discharged into the care of a child, the current situation is likely to continue. Guidance is worthy, but sadly not definitive. Therefore, the pathway for young carers to get the local authority assessment they are entitled to needs to be strengthened and here the health service is the key missing link. I speak to this amendment today because young people who care carry huge responsibilities and we must, as a society, do more to ensure they can live the flourishing lives they deserve.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, I strongly support all the amendments in this group. The noble Lord, Lord Young, has been so persuasive and I endorse what he said about young carers. As someone who has been involved with carers for almost as long as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley—I now regard her as my general in these matters—I want to focus on Amendment 221, to which I have added my name.

It is worth remembering that this Bill is being considered in the context of adult social care funding having been starved, in my view, by three successive Governments. Even when huge sums of money are being raised for health and care through a national insurance levy, social care has to wait its turn. A bit like Oliver Twist, it is at the end of the queue—hopefully there will be some money left in the coffers after the NHS has removed a substantial part of it. That context is very important.

In that context, I find it surprising that somebody somewhere in the Department of Health and Social Care thinks it is a good idea, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said, to weaken the protections for carers. It is worth bearing in mind that one in five carers now waits over six months for an assessment. In a survey from last November, only 24% of carers had received a carers’ assessment or reassessment in the past year. This is the context in which officialdom and Ministers have thought it a good idea to weaken the protections provided in the 2003 Act. There may have been some weaknesses in that Act, but this was not one of them, as it provided for the NHS to undertake these assessments before people were withdrawn. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, is not in his place, but he was the person who took that Bill through and achieved support for that protection for carers.

17:45
I cannot understand how this got through the sifting systems when Minister after Minister has stood at this Dispatch Box and sworn undying fealty to the needs of carers. We are seeing stuff stuffed into this Bill which damages the position of carers by removing the protections that were there for them. Let us not mince our words: what the Bill does in practice is shove the problem of dealing with the discharged person on to an unpaid carer, without any protections as to whether they can cope in the situation in which they find themselves. I regard that as pretty intolerable in this day and age and think we would do well to say to the Minister that we need to support these amendments, particularly Amendments 221 and 225. If the Minister is not willing to go down that path, I hope noble Lords will move them to a vote on Report.
Lord Davies of Brixton Portrait Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
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My Lords, I apologise for the confusion at the beginning of this debate. My understanding of the ways of this House is still a work in progress. I gave notice of my intention to oppose the question that Clause 80 stand part to provide the Government with an opportunity to explain more clearly than they have their intentions for the management of hospital discharge. I hope in so doing they can allay the concerns that surround the proposal to revoke Section 74 of the Care Act 2014. For example, there are the concerns of the National Care Forum, which points to the danger that

“the removal of an assessment prior to discharge will result in less priority to undertake the assessment once someone has left hospital—for someone needing support to remain in their own home, this is concerning.”

The process of hospital discharge is a crucial element within the integrated care system established by this proposed legislation. From the perspective of the service user, this is where it all comes together. It must be done right. The Explanatory Notes tell us that this clause introduces flexibility for local areas to adopt the discharge model that best meets local needs, including an approach known in England as discharge to assess, the argument being that people will be assessed at a point of optimum recovery, allowing a more accurate evaluation of their needs. Who could possibly object?

The first problem is that there is a widespread lack of trust in the Government’s motives and intentions on this, like on other changes in the Bill. It is possible to argue that the change means that people will be assessed where most appropriate. But it is also possible to argue that the change will facilitate premature discharge that is in the interests of the service provider, not the people receiving the service. As well as explaining and stressing the advantages of the proposed change, the Minister needs to tell us what the Government are doing to ensure that it will not lead to the disadvantages that many of those involved in the process fear.

The second issue that the Government need to address is that hospital discharge is still seen predominantly as a medical matter, with concern that insufficient attention is given to the social care aspects. A survey from December 2020 of social workers who were involved in hospital discharges made it clear that the vital contribution of social work in the multidisciplinary team was being marginalised by the medicalisation of people’s journeys out of hospital. Most importantly, social workers were found to feel that the voice of the individual, the person receiving the service, was being lost, indicating that arrangements were being made without consent or against people’s views and wishes.

It is also important to understand the context within which this change is proposed. On the one hand, there is the current crisis in social care. Even without the impact of the Covid pandemic, demand is outstripping supply, there are waiting lists for assessments of need and support, and local authorities are operating with significantly reduced budgets following a decade of austerity. On the other hand, there is the widely understood pressure on the hospital sector, with increased demand and mounting waiting lists. Both these factors are the result of the long-term underfunding of our system of health and social care. This will have to be addressed—just let it not be at the cost of the service user.

We must ensure that community health teams and social care teams have the resources they need to provide a needs assessment as soon as an individual is discharged. Too often, the issue of hospital discharge is discussed in terms of the needs of the service and not of the individual person.

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Portrait Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak on this group of amendments, but I want to focus particularly on Amendment 219. There are around 6.5 million unpaid carers in the UK, a number which increased to 13.6 million, or about one-fifth of the population, during the height of the pandemic. Some 1.4 million people provide more than 50 hours of unpaid care per week. Unpaid carers are often relied on to provide this care, yet receive minimal or no formal support themselves. Instead, many report feeling isolated, undervalued and pressured by the challenges of stress and responsibility. Being a carer is emotional and physical labour.

A lot has been said about the Carers UK survey, which identified that 56% of unpaid carers were not involved in decisions about patients’ discharge, with seven out of 10 respondents not being asked whether they were able to cope with having the patient back home and six out of 10 receiving insufficient support to protect their own or the patient’s health and well-being. This lack of support reflects the absence of a unified and systematic approach to identifying and supporting unpaid carers. It demands urgent remediation, especially as we know that unpaid carers are twice as likely as non-carers to have ill health, and the majority have reported worsening mental and physical health during the pandemic.

I endorse Amendment 219 because it talks about carers who work with people who come into contact not just with hospital services but with NHS services. In my work as a community mental health nurse, in many instances I saw that people were not admitted to hospital for years—which was actually a very good outcome—but their carers’ needs were just as great in supporting them with long-term problems in their own homes. This amendment would create a duty in respect of any person receiving NHS care, whether that is in the community or in hospital. The NHS must identify unpaid carers, particularly young carers, and ensure that their health and well-being are properly considered. This is a vital public health duty.

Baroness Tyler of Enfield Portrait Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
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My Lords, I strongly support this group of amendments. I particularly endorse Amendment 269 regarding young carers, which was spoken to so compellingly by the noble Lord, Lord Young.

I wish to speak primarily about Amendment 221, to which my name is attached. It is about protecting existing rights of carers. I know that the point has already been made, but it is worth repeating. Amendment 221 would retain existing rights being taken away by this Bill as it repeals the Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc.) Act 2003. I find that a pretty extraordinary position to be in.

I want briefly to focus on the impact of caring particularly on women and employment, without in any way wishing to diminish the very important role played by male carers within the family. It is just a fact that women are more likely than men to be carers. According to some research conducted by Carers UK with the Universities of Sheffield and Birmingham, women have a good chance of becoming carers 11 years before men. Women are also more likely to reduce their working hours in order to care, and they are more likely as a result to have lower incomes and end up under-pensioned in retirement.

As we have heard, hospital discharge can be a pivotal moment for people providing care, particularly women. This amendment would ensure that assumptions are not made about carers’ ability to care, even when they may be working at the same time, that a solution is discussed and, ideally, agreed between families and services, and that carers are provided with the support they need to enable them to care safely and well. For those carers who are juggling work and care, which I can relate to personally, it is essential that their health and well-being are supported. This also has a positive benefit for employers. During the pandemic, the Carers UK research already referred to found an increase of around 2.8 million in the number of people who were juggling work and care, the majority of whom were women. Prior to the pandemic, some 600 carers a day were giving up work to care. During the pandemic, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, reminded us, carers have become the backbone of the care system, protecting the NHS and social care in many cases from collapse.

The Carers UK research also found that 72% of carers providing substantial care and working were worried about continuing to juggle care and work, and 77% of carers said that they felt tired all the time at work because of their caring responsibilities. During the pandemic, 23% of working-age carers providing substantial care had given up work, lost their jobs, lowered working hours or lost income if they were self-employed.

As the NHS works to reduce the backlog of care, hospital discharges will become ever more critical, as will support for carers. The two go hand in hand, and we must not fail those who have so selflessly shouldered such a heavy load.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Con)
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My Lords, I shall speak to all the amendments in this group, but I have added my name to Amendment 217 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. There are two separate but related issues in this group of amendments, and it might be helpful for a moment to focus on them. The first is the needs of patients who are facing discharge from hospital. The second is the needs of unpaid carers in situations where patients are sent home from hospital. That second issue is covered particularly by Amendments 219, 221, 225 and 269. I support all of them, and commend the work and the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and the passionate speech from my noble friend Lord Young.

I wholeheartedly share the concerns about the repeal of the provisions in the Care Act 2014. The issue of patients needing to be discharged from hospital sometimes seems to be spoken of as if we are discussing objects rather than people.

18:00
The pandemic seems to have revealed a worrying trend within the health service, which I hope my noble friend the Minister can reassure the Committee will not continue, whereby hospitals discharging patients have been so focused on the needs of the hospital rather than the needs of the patient that the idea has been to get them out rather than to make sure that they are ready to leave and have somewhere to go. Part of the problem is that we have not retained the kind of institutions that, in the past, might have been called convalescent homes or convalescent wards in hospitals, so that acute care beds could be released.
Even with Amendment 217 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, there is reason to be concerned that a patient can be discharged and will not have an assessment for two weeks—or will not even have an assessment, given, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, rightly said, the crisis within the care system. Therefore, that patient, and the unpaid carers who will be struggling to try to look after them while they wait for the assessment, will be caught up in a problem that could well result in significant harm to the patient who has been discharged, and ultimately to the wider group of unpaid carers who are struggling to look after them.
The measures in Clause 80, which would repeal the protections that are in place for patients before they are discharged from hospital, could benefit from reconsideration. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will meet interested Peers to discuss an alternative to this repeal of Clause 80.
Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher (CB)
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My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 219, and I support all the amendment in this group. In view of the number of excellent speeches that have been made, I have given up on my speech and just want to ask the Minister a question. I am sure he finds it completely unacceptable that half of carers who provide significant care for a loved one say they have not even been consulted about a discharge from hospital and two-thirds of them say that they have not been listened to about whether they are able to care for their loved one when that person might be coming out of hospital. I ask the Minister to assure the Committee that he will be able to bring back an amendment on Report on this critical issue.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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I support in particular Amendment 217. In so doing, I draw the attention of the Committee to my interests as set out in the register, particularly as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

I want to make three very clear points about this. First, this amendment refers to assessment; it does not refer to the package of care. The assessment is the first stage, before the social workers and before adaptation or anything else can happen, so the person leaving hospital gets a sense of independence and support to lead as independent a life as possible and to help them in their recovery. Evidence shows that the best way to start the assessment is on the day that the person is admitted. It is not about waiting for an optimal time. The assessment may change as the person progresses, but all the evidence shows that assessment should start on admission. The concept that there is an optimum point does not stand up to the evidence.

Secondly, having this framework within the Bill, with timescales and so on, does not stop local innovation, it just gives a framework for local innovation and integration to take place.

My third point is a question. I know of no condition—unless the Minister can inform the Committee of one—where starting the assessment two weeks after a person leaves hospital is in the best interests of that person; they may have to wait six, seven or eight weeks for the package of care to be put in place. Can the Minister tell us for which conditions the suitable and optimum point at which to start the assessment is after a person has left hospital?

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
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My Lords, after this rich and informative debate, I will briefly make two points and offer the Green group’s support for all these amendments.

I share the shock expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and others that we are in a situation where in the House of Lords we are trying to put the situation back to what it was before because the Bill is making it so much worse.

I particularly want to address Amendment 269 about young carers. I should perhaps declare that I have never been carer—I have not been in that situation. But I want to share a little bit of what I learned from Sophie Dishman, who I met in 2015, when she was a student at the University of Sunderland. She told me that she became a carer at about the age of 12, but that it was only when she was 18 that she realised that she was a carer—a point that many others have addressed. As well as continuing to care, she created a campaign at the University of Sunderland to inform others about the situation and perhaps help others identify themselves as a carer. She produced a very clever, witty, attractive tote bag, with the line, “Being a carer at uni can be a lot to carry around”, a check list of all the things that you might have to do being both a student and a carer, and a useful leaflet, designed for staff in particular, showing signs that a carer might need help.

I want to make the point, which I do not think anyone else has made, that young carers are by nature people who have developed an enormous amount of capability, knowledge and skills. They are amazing individuals. It is not only the right thing to do but in society’s interest to make sure they are able, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said earlier, to flourish and develop those capabilities. It is in our interest to do that.

I want to point to an article that has been out for only a couple of weeks, in volume 27, issue 1 of Child & Family Social Work. The headline is

“It’s making his bad days into my bad days”,

and the article is about young carers in the Covid emergency. This is where we are now. It is about just how much more difficult the withdrawal of services has made it for carers, particularly young carers. We have a huge, as yet uncertain, but certainly large, burden from long Covid, and many people will be taking on huge caring responsibilities because of it.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, if the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, is the general, we are all her foot soldiers. There have been some excellent speeches. In particular, the noble Baroness outlined for us what are, I hope, the unintended consequences of what the Government are doing in their proposals about discharge to assess. It does not seem right that it is up to this House to put back the rights and abilities of carers to do their caring without too much impact on themselves. I hope the Minister heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and others, such as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said about that. We heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, how much worse the situation has been for so many carers—in particular those who care for people with learning disabilities or mental health problems—during the pandemic, when, unfortunately, it was necessary to withdraw certain services that they normally rely upon. I hope that, when we have heard the Minister’s response, we can come back to Clause 80 on Report if we are not satisfied with the Government’s response, because the situation is not good, even now.

I am grateful to Carers UK and Barnardo’s, which have given us some dreadful horror stories about the situation of carers when the person they care for is being discharged from hospital. One of the worst that I read about was when the carer was only told when the person being discharged was actually in the ambulance on the way home. They had to run around trying to get a commode, which that person would certainly need when they got home. The situation is so much worse for a young carer who does not necessarily know their way around the system in the same way that an adult carer might. Although I support all the amendments in this group, that is why I added my name to Amendment 269 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. It is all about the need to identify and ensure appropriate support for young carers before a patient leaves hospital. I really take on board my noble friend Lord Scriven’s view that you should not do it at the end of the stay in hospital: you should start thinking about it when the person goes into hospital.

Caring for a sick or disabled person, no matter how strong the bonds of love, is a difficult and exhausting challenge. It is hard enough for adults, the majority of whom, as we have heard from my noble friend Lady Tyler, are women; we have heard about the effects on their finances and pensions. Many adults do not feel equipped to do it adequately, and it is even harder for children. How can a child be expected to have the knowledge and skills needed to care adequately for an adult and, at the same time, benefit from education and prepare for their own future life?

We know that circumstances sometimes put children in this position, but it is essential that public services provide as much support as possible. However, we know that, although it is estimated that there might be around 800,000 young carers in the whole of the UK, sometimes even their school does not know who they are. In some cases, the young carers themselves prefer it that way, because they see it as a stigma or something that their friends might not quite understand; but it does mean, of course, that they do not get the help that they need, and neither does the person being cared for.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that a proper assessment must be done either before the patient leaves hospital or very promptly post discharge. I hear all the problems about that; yet, carers, according to an ONS report in 2017, save the state more than £60 billion every year, which is more than is spent on formal caring—although it is not clear how much of that is saved by young carers. On the other hand, it has been assessed that a family with a young carer has an income, on average, £5,000 a year lower than other families—so these families are often poor too.

Local authorities already have considerable duties relating to identifying, assessing and supporting young carers, and we have heard of at least two very good schemes. Many of them do it very well, despite the fact that some of these young people are hard to find. However, it is essential that some duties also apply to the NHS, and they must not be lost in the move to integrated care systems. Adequate focus must be placed on these duties by the ICB having a rigorous system or framework to ensure a process for assessment. As my noble friend Lord Scriven pointed out, this is step one in ensuring that needs are subsequently met.

Lord Kamall Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)
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My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. We are looking to move towards a more integrated care system for precisely some of the reasons that noble Lords have laid out: that a patient is discharged by a hospital but it is not done in an integrated way. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, said, during the pandemic local authorities and the NHS developed innovative ways to support better discharge from hospital to community care, and what we want to see is discharge to assess as one model. In some cases, it might be the best model: for example, where people are over the age of 80, the longer they stay in hospital, the more you see muscular deterioration. That is one of the reasons given for why, in some cases, discharge to assess might be the most appropriate.

18:15
What we are proposing does not change existing legal obligations on NHS bodies to meet their local population’s health needs, and local authorities are still required to assess and meet people’s needs for adult social care. We want to see, under the ICS system, that it is done in an integrated way and that somebody does not fob off a patient or treat them as an object just to get them out the door. In addition to these responsibilities, we are co-producing draft discharge guidance setting out how the existing statutory duty in the National Health Service Act 2006, which requires health and social care partners to cooperate, will apply to discharge. This will be statutory guidance, subject to parliamentary passage of the Bill, using the new guidance-making power introduced by Clause 66. Such guidance will make it clear that people should not fall through the gaps but should receive the right care at the right time in the right place. Everyone who requires a social care needs assessment should receive one in a timely manner, and, where appropriate, health and social care staff should involve family and other carers in the discharge-planning process.
This draft guidance on co-operation that I mentioned is being co-produced with Carers UK and the Carers Trust. We will promote carers’ rights throughout that guidance, including setting a clear expectation that carers should be routinely consulted throughout the discharge-planning process, including establishing whether carers are able or unable to provide care. The evidence is clear that, in some cases, when patients are clinically ready, the most effective route for their long-term outcome is to discharge them as soon as possible—but not always, as many noble Lords have said. We also understand the need for accountability, and that is why NHS England will now publish hospital discharge data.
I share the concerns of many noble Lords about unpaid carers, and celebrate the work they do and the vital contribution that they make to the lives of those for whom they care. There are processes in place by which unpaid carers are identified and can identify themselves. For example, there are ways for health workers to record within the unpaid carer’s health records that they are an unpaid carer. Unfortunately, self-identification as a carer is not always straightforward, and that identification should be done with the carer’s consent. What we want to see from the Bill is a duty on the ICBs and NHS England to make sure that the arrangements for patients are done in a joined-up way.
We also know that know that local authorities are already under existing duties to assess and meet carers’ needs for support. We are concerned that duplicating these duties by placing them on the NHS in addition to local authorities might not offer a clear benefit to carers, and this should be done at the ICB level. The draft hospital discharge guidance that I mentioned is clear that people should be discharged on to the right pathway, not only on the discharge to assess model but whatever is the most appropriate model.
Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow. I have been listening very carefully to this. What I do not understand is what happens if there is not enough resource in the local authority. Local authorities have had pretty poor treatment over the last decade compared with the NHS. If there is not enough resource to either do an assessment or meet the needs of that assessment, does it then fall to the NHS to plug the gap if it wants to get the person out of hospital? We would like a little more clarity on that particular aspect.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the noble Lord for his question. The goal is to make sure that the NHS and local authorities work better together. The noble Lord talks about resources. One of the reasons for the levy—whatever one thinks of it—is to help plug that gap and to make sure that there is more money going into social care as well.

Turning to the points made about the term “carer”, we believe that the term is used to capture the whole spectrum of carers, including children and adults who care, unpaid, for a friend or family member. By not imposing a statutory definition, we avoid inadvertently excluding groups, and ensure that ICBs and NHS England promote the involvement of all types of carers and representatives.

Turning to the last amendment in this group, existing legislation already requires local authorities to carry out an assessment of need for all young carers upon request or on the appearance of need. This assessment must consider whether it is appropriate or excessive for the young carer to provide care, in the light of the young carer’s needs and wishes. Indeed, as some noble Lords have said, sometimes what happens is that the hospital may decide it is appropriate but those who are supposed to be doing the caring at home do not feel they have the ability.

We hope that under this, as part of the discharge planning, the current discharge guidance can set out any considerations that should be given to young people in the household who have caring responsibilities. We want to strengthen current processes in respect of young carers too. We are also working with the Department for Education to ensure that protections for young carers are reflected in the new guidance, including setting out where young carers should have a needs assessment arranged before a patient for whom they provide care is discharged, or as soon as possible afterwards.

Given the comments from noble Lords, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner—sorry, I should say, General Pitkeathley and Major Warner—clearly there are still some concerns over how this will work. It would be worthwhile having some more conversations on this issue to better understand how we see integrated care working, where there may well be gaps in our understanding and whether we can help to close the gaps between the two sides.

Baroness Wheeler Portrait Baroness Wheeler (Lab)
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My Lords, it has been an excellent debate and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, all strongly supporting this important group of amendments, which would ensure that the needs of both patients and carers were fully taken into account in the discharge process and that Clause 80 does not just wipe away carers’ rights—legal rights that have been hard-fought for. Although I am pleased that the Minister talked about further guidance being developed and co-produced, I cannot see how that will address the problem of replacing carers’ rights, which are being taken out of this Bill and need to be included in it.

I am also a bit disappointed that the Minister did not respond to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley or give her the reassurances that she was seeking over the deep concerns about the expectation in the current guidance that unpaid carers will need to take on even more unpaid work. She made her views quite clear on this: it is paid work that unpaid carers need, not to be forced on to or to stay on benefits. They can take up jobs only if they get the care and support that is needed in the home or from the services that they need.

Noble Lords have made it clear that the discharge to assess model has to be matched with proper funding and community and healthcare services. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, reminded us of the importance of this in respect of the carers of people with learning difficulties, who face particular problems in caring. It is also overwhelmingly clear that noble Lords strongly support the establishment and the carrying forward into the Bill of existing carers’ rights.

I hope the Minister will meet urgently with my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley, Carers UK and others involved in these amendments, both to address the fundamentally wrong assumptions in the guidance about the role of unpaid carers and to ensure that their existing hard-won legal rights that have been taken away will be included. He also needs to provide the evidence called for by my noble friend on the overall assumption the Government are making that the discharge to assess process is better for carers than the existing rights that they have; it is not. This is a key issue that we will return to on Report, so I hope some action will be forthcoming from the government discussions between now and then.

On my own amendment, I would like to have heard a lot more reassurances about the timescales and timelines involved in the discharge process. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, for his support, and for explaining why this issue is important and how, practically, it would work with local authorities. On young carers, I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, and everybody who has participated in that.

I remind the Minister of the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher: in the discharge process and in the assessments of carers it is really important that the question be asked whether they are able to care and whether they want to care. I would like the Minister to take up that issue. I know that carers feel strongly about this, but quite often, even if they are asked, no notice is taken and they just have to get on with it and nothing else happens. I would particularly like to see a response to that.

On those few points, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. I hope the Minister acts quickly to meet carers and their representatives.

Amendment 217 withdrawn.
Amendments 218 to 221 not moved.
Amendment 222
Moved by
222: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Cap on private charges
(1) Section 43 of the National Health Service Act 2006 is amended as follows.(2) After subsection (2A) insert—“(2B) An NHS foundation trust does not fulfil its principal purpose if in any financial year the proportion of the total income of the trust derived from private charges is greater than in the previous financial year unless—(a) the appropriate integrated care boards and integrated care partnerships have been notified of the intention that this increase will occur;(b) that intention has been published with a statement of the reasons why it is considered to benefit the NHS;(c) the appropriate integrated care boards and integrated care partnerships have used reasonable endeavours to consider any responses to the publication mentioned in paragraph (b); and(d) any integrated care board which has commissioned services from the trust, and the integrated care partnership for the board, have informed the NHS foundation trust that the proposed increase is justified.(2C) For the purposes of subsection (2B) “private charges” means charges imposed in respect of goods and services provided to patients other than patients being provided with goods and services for the purposes of the health service.””Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment prevents any Foundation Trust from increasing its income from private patients unless this is agreed by the relevant commissioning bodies and the appropriate integrated care partnerships.
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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My Lords, Amendments 222 and 223, in my name, seek clarification about the private charges cap. Amendment 222 would prevent any foundation trust increasing its income from private patients unless this was agreed with the relevant commissioning bodies and the appropriate ICB. Amendment 223 would remove the power for NHS trusts and foundations to form subsidiary companies.

When foundation trusts were introduced in 2003, they were restricted in the amount of private patient work they could carry out. That was, in part, to alleviate concerns that they might unduly focus on generating income from private patients rather than tackling the then considerable waiting lists. The compromise stood for many years and proved to be little hindrance, although there is one trust on record that declined to move to foundation trust status because it did have a large private patient income—I will leave it to the Minister to work out which one it was. Overall, the regulations have been sufficient to ensure that such activity did not grow and waiting lists came down. The restriction only ever applied to foundation trusts—not to plain old NHS trusts, although we all know that they are, of course, subject to the will of the Secretary of State in all things anyway.

The notion of independence was reinforced under the new settlement of the 2012 Act. That removed the restrictions and allowed, at least notionally, for a foundation trust to move to have up to 50% of its income from private patients. Although there were some claims that this would lead to a huge acceleration of private patient work, once again that did not prove to be the case.

Now we arrive at today. The new Bill is based on the assumption that the logic of competition between acute trusts is indeed minimised and that they should be more focused on general good, and less on autonomy and their own bottom line than on co-operation between different parts of the NHS in their locality. Logic suggests that in this new world we should once again look at ensuring that private patient work has no adverse impact on the core work of the NHS. These amendments are similar to those that were used to ensure that private interests cannot be allowed to influence the work of ICBs, and that that should be recognised in the Bill.

I have another three, very detailed pages, but I will spare the Committee those. I beg to move.

Earl of Kinnoull Portrait The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)
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I thank the noble Baroness very much indeed. That makes it 15 all, I think.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is participating remotely, and I invite her to speak now.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I too will be extremely brief on this, given the hour and the number of groups we have to go through.

I am very interested to hear the response of the Minister on this; it feels as though there has been a sort of gentle relaxation, and it would be good to understand the boundaries for foundation trusts around how much they can increase their income from private patients at exactly the time when we have a phenomenal NHS waiting list and people are becoming more seriously ill as a result of the pandemic and there are delays in getting their treatment.

I say this particularly in the light of two recent comments—as I will call them—by the Secretary of State for Health. One was about increasing the amount of contracting from the NHS to private hospitals to perform large numbers of investigations as part of the backlog, but this is becoming habit now in this exceptional time—we have bad flu winters as well, but this is an exceptional time. Perhaps slightly more worryingly, the other concerns proposals that were outlined, informally, by the Secretary of State a couple of days ago to change entirely the nature of contracts with GPs. I am concerned that some of the structures, particularly for foundation trusts, are being loosened without Parliament being aware. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

18:30
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
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My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Brinton. I too will be brief. I have attached my name to the first of these amendments because it addresses such an important issue. We are seeing more and more signs of real competition between the resources being used for private work and for public purposes, for which the NHS is there. A report in the Guardian this month said that in January 2021, when there were enormous Covid pressures on hospitals in London, doctors wrote to their medical consultants begging them to reduce their private work so that their availability to those hospitals was greater. That is a measure of how Covid has accelerated and put extra pressures on the NHS.

I will quote from the websites of two hospitals, which I will not name; to do so would be unfair, as I suspect that they are very typical. One says:

“All profits from the provision of our private patient services are used to support the delivery of NHS clinical care for the benefit of all patients.”


Therefore, it is very easy to see how well-meaning people might say, “Well, if we do more private work, then we’ve got this money to put into our horribly underfunded public work”, but that is taking away terribly limited resources, particularly staff and staff resources, as we have discussed in considering so many other amendments. The other hospital’s website says of its private provision that it offers

“rapid access and flexibility for a wide range of conditions and care needs … the unit can also care for those patients admitted through”

the hospital’s

“emergency department who may wish to make use of their private insurance or indeed pay for their private care themselves.”

As noble Lords know or will recognise from my accent, I come from Australia, which has a two-tier system. Many people with resources have medical insurance, and the poorer people do not. There are clearly two utterly different levels of service, which means there is much less advocacy for, support for and fighting for public provision. If we look at the trend of travel, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is important and must be thought about in the context of foundation trusts and much more broadly.

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen Portrait Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
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Well done. You need Baronesses to do this: they get to the point and get it done.

I thank noble Lords for explaining these amendments. As they may recall, in 2012 we abolished the private patient cap while clarifying that the foundation trusts’ principal purpose is

“the provision of goods and services for the purposes of the health service in England”.

This means that foundation trusts must make the majority of their income from NHS activity and must always have as their primary purpose the delivery of NHS services. We also retained the requirement that additional income should be used to benefit NHS patient care, and it has been used across the system to offset such things as maintenance costs, to finance alternative transport such as park and-ride and to fund patient care.

This amendment would introduce a new cap by requiring foundation trusts to agree with their ICB and ICP their income from non-NHS sources. However, this would be a significant bureaucratic burden on foundation trusts and would require them to forgo raising additional income or seek agreement via a multi-stage process before doing so. It would also mark a significant new restriction on foundation trusts’ freedoms and autonomy.

Similarly, Amendment 233 would restrict the freedom of NHS organisations to decide locally the most appropriate structures they need to support their operations. There are multiple reasons for trusts setting up subsidiary companies, including providing services for other trusts and being able to attract staff from the local employment market. Creating a subsidiary can also be an alternative to outsourcing services to the private sector, thereby maintaining its staff within the NHS family. Importantly, in November 2018 NHS Improvement issued guidance to trusts about forming or changing a subsidiary. Under that guidance, all subsidiary proposals must be referred to NHS Improvement for review. NHS England and NHS Improvement paused their update of the guidance to trusts on subsidiary companies to allow the sector to focus on supporting the response to Covid-19 and the recovery of services. However, we remain committed to the review and the publication of this updated guidance is now set for early summer 2022.

I hope I have given the noble Baroness sufficient reassurance for her to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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I thank the Minister and am very pleased indeed to hear about the review. However, we on this side of the House believe that the NHS should be the default provider of clinical services and, if it is not the only provider, it should be the predominant one in geographical and service terms. That means that there must be investment in the NHS, not in the private sector. It is that balance, which we must ensure is in this Bill, that has protected NHS clinical services in the past.

I will read what the noble Baroness has said very carefully, and I might need further reassurance in due course. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 222 withdrawn.
Amendment 223 not moved.
Amendment 224
Moved by
224: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Access to NHS dentistry
The Secretary of State must, within one year of the passing of this Act, publish a statement setting out what measures the Government is taking to ensure universal access to NHS dentistry.” Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would require the Secretary of State to publish a statement of what measures the Government is taking to ensure universal access to NHS dentistry.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, I hope that I do not slow us down again after the provocative words of the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, but I am going to talk about access to dental treatment and fluoridation. Although the House is somewhat empty, I expect that as the debate goes on it might fill up a little.

We had an Oral Question this afternoon about dentistry, and I do not want to repeat everything that was said then. I have enjoyed debating dental issues with the Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for many years. He will know that there is widespread concern about the lack of access to dentistry. At Oral Questions the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, referred to the £50 million that had been provided, but I am afraid that the 350,000 treatments that it will pay for are a drop in the ocean compared with the 38 million patient treatments that have been lost as a result of the pandemic.

Many people are finding accessing dentistry almost impossible at the moment. The Minister referred earlier today to people being able to use the access centres, and to the 111 service, but I am afraid that it has broken down in many parts of the country. One is led to the conclusion that dentistry issues are not a priority. Many adults and children are suffering in pain because of their lack of access. The Government must focus on this and develop a proper strategy. I pay tribute to Healthwatch for its work in this area—it has had a lot of interest from members of the public—and to the BDA for its briefings.

Treatment is one thing, prevention is another. Here, I must remind the Committee of my presidency of the British Fluoridation Society. This brings me to effective preventive measures. I welcome Clauses 147 and 148. Unfortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is not here to hear me say this, but essentially, giving this responsibility to local authorities has proved to be a failure. Not one local fluoridation scheme has gone through under the auspices of local authority leadership, and we must conclude that leaving it to local authorities is likely to mean that we will not see fluoridation developed in any part of the country.

So this is a national issue and it is right that the Secretary State should take over responsibility; it is also right to acknowledge that, in September last year, the four Chief Medical Officers stated:

“As with all things in medicine and public health there is a balance of risk and benefit.”


We have certainly learned that in the last two years. As they said:

“There is unquestionably an issue with tooth decay in the UK and an entrenched inequality which needs to be addressed. Fluoridation of water can reduce this common problem … On balance, there is strong scientific evidence that water fluoridation is an effective public health intervention for reducing the prevalence of tooth decay and improving dental health equality across the UK. It should be seen as a complementary strategy, not a substitute for other effective methods of increasing fluoride use.”


I think that is a very wise assessment of the situation. The effectiveness of fluoridation of water supplies to improve oral health has been evident for many decades. Some communities such as my own—Birmingham—have taken advantage and, as a result, we generally enjoy good overall oral health, but progress in spreading these benefits has been very slow. The transfer to local government, I am afraid, did not work.

So I strongly support the thrust of these clauses; in fact, they are the two most welcome clauses in the whole Bill. The question, however, is whether they will bite, and this is what lies behind my amendments. Amendment 260 concerns the consultation process. I do not think I have got the wording in quite the right place—frankly, trying to find my way through the Water Act and changes to it over the last 20 years or so proved beyond me—but the intent is to ask: if there is to be consultation about schemes, please can we move away from the local consultations that have to be gone through at the moment? They are an absolute nightmare. They bring out opposition from national bodies that causes mayhem in the locality.

The issue is not the practicalities of the scheme but about going back over the principle. The very fact that the Government have brought these clauses has decided the principle of the benefit of fluoridation. If there is to be a consultation, for goodness’ sake, let us have just one instead of the myriad local consultations that have obviously got in the way of progress in the past.

My Amendment 261 is part probing. Currently, the Bill gives the Secretary State power to make regulations to require a public body to meet the costs to the Secretary of State in relation to fluoridation schemes. I would be interested to hear from the Minister the reasons and circumstances under which they would be used. My concern would be that asking too hard a subvention of local bodies might inhibit the progress of fluoridation schemes. Amendment 262 requires the Secretary of State to ensure that a programme for implementing water fluoridation schemes is established within 12 months of the Bill being passed. I would like to see a report every three years, laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State, on the progress made in implementing new water fluoridation schemes. The basic purpose would be to ensure that the Government get on with this, establishing more schemes and spreading the benefits across the entire community as soon as possible. I beg to move, and hope that I have met the noble Baroness’s test.

Baroness Northover Portrait Baroness Northover (LD)
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My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendments 260, 261 and 262 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on water fluoridation.

The NHS rightly prides itself on being evidence-based. Nevertheless, when Ara Darzi became health Minister, he was concerned that, in a number of areas such as the treatment of diabetes, there was not a full assessment of regular outcomes, as opposed to the fantastic clinical trials on new treatments for specific diseases. Hence, he introduced his atlas of outcomes. It showed, for example, absolutely unacceptable different outcomes for diabetes if you lived in Cornwall—where you were more likely to lose a leg—compared with Essex. There were serious lessons to be drawn from that, which needed to be applied in other areas, too.

18:45
When I deputised for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in the Department of Health during the coalition, and prepared for a debate on fluoridation in water, I saw similar maps relating to children’s dental health. In the light of the Marmot report and other research, I expected poorer dental health among children in more deprived areas, but this was not so. What it showed was fewer caries in areas where the water had fluoride. It was not what I expected. What you saw was poorer dental health in areas where local campaigns had prevented the fluoridation of water. There was a pretty direct correlation between active campaigns against fluoridation and significantly higher levels of dental decay in children—parts of Hampshire versus inner-city areas, for example.
I fully understand why it is essential to study the effects of fluoride, or anything else that is added to food and drink; that is why I welcome Public Health England’s reports on the matter, which started in 2013. I believe we should be due another one soon. Public Health England’s 2018 health monitoring report on the issue shows that five year-olds living in areas with water fluoridation are much less likely to have tooth decay, and the chances of having a tooth removed in hospital because of decay are also much lower. Children from both affluent and deprived areas benefited, but children from relatively deprived areas benefited the most. I would point noble Lords to that and many other studies.
Concern over fluoridation, and campaigns against it, are long-standing, dating from long before social media, but it is precisely this kind of issue where misinformation is likely to be rife, multiplying the effects of such earlier campaigns. All sorts of rumours have been spread: that fluoride in water has caused more hip fractures, kidney stones, bladder cancer, bone cancer and Down’s syndrome. The expert assessment of the information shows that this simply is not the case. Monitoring of the effect of fluoride is in place. Clearly it is appropriate to engage in national debate, but I too am concerned that simply pushing this to local debate has had the effect of putting back children’s health. One can see why—“If in doubt, do not implement”, not realising that this is a decision too. That is why it needs to be properly informed, in my view, by expert advice. I would have thought that in this pandemic we have learned the value of experts. That does not mean to say that we do not also need to tackle the problems of sugary drinks or lack of dentists, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just referred.
We have had years and years of debate over fluoridation, since I was a student. I am glad and astonished from my own simply anecdotal experience that none of my kids has had a filling, even though two are now in their 30s, whereas I had fillings from my teens, and that my sister’s teenage kids in Canada, with no fluoride either in toothpaste or elsewhere, have multiple fillings. That is anecdotal; it is to get away from such anecdotal approaches in either direction that I support what Public Health England has been doing to study the areas of the country with and without fluoride in the water and to assess all the other concerns that people have raised, and the conclusion now is that this should be implemented on a national scale—like adding folic acid to flour to prevent spina bifida. Decisions not taken are also decisions that have implications. I therefore support the proposals and amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.
Lord Reay Portrait Lord Reay (Con)
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My Lords, I have added my name in opposition to Clauses 147 and 148 standing part of the Bill—tabled by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. These clauses enshrine the Government’s intentions to expand the rollout of water fluoridation throughout the UK. In case the House should decide that they remain, I will also speak to Amendments 259B and 259D in my name, which would make the implementation of the policy conditional on an environmental impact assessment and the analysis of recent US Government-funded, peer-reviewed studies.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh apologises for not being present in the Chamber today, as she has been pinged. However, she wanted me to convey her support of Amendments 259B and 259D.

It is most unfortunate that the important topic of water fluoridation has not been granted a full debate of its own in this House. That it has been slipped in by these back-door clauses does a huge disservice to the issue and detracts from the important debate over the Health and Care Bill itself. These clauses in effect ride roughshod over the current status quo on water fluoridation in terms of legal precedent; they also ignore the existence of effective alternative strategies for fighting tooth decay, as practised not only in Scotland but in most other countries in the world.

While roughly 10% of the population lives in artificially fluoridated communities, it is true that no areas have been added since the late 1980s. Successive Governments have tried to increase the coverage but have failed, including in Southampton a few years ago, because the measure meets stubborn resistance from local communities, who do not wish to be mandated to drink fluoridated water. In Scotland, Lord Jauncey in the case of McColl v Strathclyde Council 1983 concluded that fluoridation amounted to illegitimate medical treatment via the public water supply. Since then, the health service in Scotland has focused on other measures to improve children’s oral health, with a considerable degree of success.

The government policy paper used to support the insertion of these two unfortunate clauses appears to report only what the fluoridation proponents want Ministers to hear: namely, that the practice benefits teeth and poses no threat to the rest of the body. However, four high-quality US Government-funded studies published since 2017, all peer reviewed, looked at the effects on the brain. Each one reached concerning conclusions. The first of these studies, by Bashash et al, appeared in the high-impact journal Environmental Health Perspectives in 2017. This mother-child cohort study showed a four-to-five-point loss of IQ in offspring associated with maternal fluoride intake, typically experienced in a fluoridated community. Some 300 mother-baby pairs were followed for 12 years, with a mother’s fluoride exposure measured directly via urinary fluoride level, and the paired offspring’s IQ was measured at four, and at six to 12, years of age.

Since this study a further three, similarly robust US- Government funded studies—Bashash 2018, Green 2019 and Till 2020—all point in the same direction: damage to the infant brain, IQ loss, and/or increased ADHD symptoms associated with fluoride exposure at the doses experienced in artificially fluoridated communities—which, I might add, were at lower fluoridation levels than those considered for the UK, with 0.7 ppm versus 1 ppm. According to Dr Philippe Grandjean from Harvard University,

“Fluoride is causing a greater overall loss of IQ points today than lead, arsenic or mercury.”


Another recent study in 2015 by Professor Stephen Peckham, an adviser to the Select Committee on Health and Social Care, chaired by Jeremy Hunt, showed that incidences of hyperthyroidism are nearly twice as likely to report high prevalence in the West Midlands, which is a fluoridated area, in comparison to non-fluoridated Greater Manchester. Professor Peckham’s study has been omitted from the policy paper’s references. So, too, has the conclusion of the important 2015 Cochrane review, which found as follows: no strong evidence that fluoridation reduced tooth decay in adults; no strong evidence that tooth decay increased when fluoridation was halted in a community; and, contrary to claims from promoters that fluoridation helps low-income children, it found:

“There is insufficient evidence to determine whether water fluoridation results in a change in disparities in caries levels across”


socioeconomic status. All these scientific findings are extremely important, but I find it very worrying that they appear either to have been ignored or dismissed by the authors of this policy paper. Amendment 259D commits the Government to have these four US studies reviewed by expert toxicologists.

I turn to the matter of why fluoride in the UK is not considered a medicine when the WHO has recently classified it as such. Why do the Government refuse to do the same? They contend that water fluoridation has a medical benefit in terms of reduced tooth decay. Could it be that by defining fluoridation water as medicine, the Government then submit themselves to regulation and scrutiny? The MHRA is responsible for the licensing requirements for medicinal products. If fluoridated water were treated as a medicine, individuals would then have the absolute right to refuse the administration of water fluoridation by choice, and industrial-grade fluoridating chemicals would not be allowed. Of course, if it were defined as a medicine, it could not be administered without consent. When fluoride is delivered via toothpaste, the individual has a choice in the matter. When it is carried through the public water supply, there is no individual choice and the ingested fluoride goes to every tissue in the body, including those of the unborn child. This is particularly unfortunate for lower-income families, who cannot take avoidance measures such as bottled water or filters. Moreover, there is no assessment of individual health, size, dose, physical and mental state. Contrary to the direction of modern medicine, whereby treatments are increasingly tailored to the individual, water fluoridation is a crude, one-size-fits-all strategy.

The legality of the Government’s determination to avoid defining water fluoridation as medicine is questionable. The Supreme Court of Canada in the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto case in 1957 held that fluoridation was using the water supply for a medicinal purpose, which was separately reaffirmed by Lord Jauncey years later. The Lord Jauncey decision explains why Scotland has no communities with artificial fluoridation. The Scottish health department, to its credit, instead has developed an exciting programme called Childsmile. This is a programme of early education on both dental hygiene and diet. It involves both schools and parents and has proved successful and cost effective. Not only has dental decay been reduced but the overall health of children in terms of fighting sugar consumption and obesity has been improved. This programme is relevant to the cut and thrust of the Bill but it has been ignored in the policy paper. Given the success of Childsmile in Scotland, can the Minister say whether the Government will consider a rollout of this programme throughout the UK?

It is conservatively estimated that only 2% of the water supplied by water companies is consumed by domestic users. This would mean that 98% of the water containing fluoride would re-enter waterways, with the potential for damaging plant and aquatic life and entering the food chain. Under the EU dangerous substances directive, fluorides are classified as deleterious to the aquatic environment. Last month, the Environmental Audit Committee in the other place published a report concluding that a chemical cocktail is polluting English rivers and putting public health and nature at risk. We must refrain from adding fluoride to the toxic mix. I add that, in addition to the toxicity of fluoride itself, contaminants such as lead and arsenic are often present in the industrial-grade fluoridation chemicals used. These frequently derive from the hazardous waste of the phosphate fertiliser industry. Given the repercussions for the environment, our waterways, animals, fish and other wildlife from this policy, it seems surprising that Defra does not appear to have been involved in the decision-making process for water fluoridation. Perhaps the Minister can explain why.

Last year, we heard the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care announce that £10 million will be charged to water bill-payers for the rollout of water fluoridation. However, I suggest that it will cost taxpayers considerably more. Greater Manchester has around 22 treatment plants, which would need to be refitted for £1 million to £2 million each. Using a back-of-the-envelope calculation, to cover parts of the UK not already fluoridated will conservatively cost in excess of £300 million, excluding chemicals or running expenses. The policy paper fails to reveal how much the proposals will actually cost.

Perhaps the Minister can share with us the forecasted costings of rolling out water fluoridation throughout the UK in terms of plants, chemicals and other extraneous expenses. In addition, have Her Majesty’s Treasury, the Public Accounts Committee or any respected independent bodies such as the Office for Budget Responsibility or the IFS scrutinised the real costs and their effect on the public finances and health budget? Will these unknown extra costs be met by cuts to NHS dental departments or other parts of the health budget? This money would be far better spent on early intervention on dental hygiene and diet, as in the Scottish Childsmile programme.

19:00
In conclusion, I contend that Clauses 147 and 148 endorsing fluoridation should be withdrawn from the Bill. There is significant evidence that findings of fluoride’s neurotoxicity at low doses have been established and are not going to go away. The evidence becomes more compelling with each month that passes as more research comes to light. Since 2016, the United States National Toxicology Program has been engaged in a systematic review of all the neurotoxicity studies. It would be prudent to wait for the publication of its final report, expected this year, to aid the Department of Health and Social Care’s much-needed reassessment of this issue either via the next PHE monitoring report or otherwise.
The overriding need to protect the development of the infant brain should be placed above any further effort to promote this well-intentioned but outdated practice of water fluoridation. We must pause this policy while the Government appoint a more diverse array of scientific advisers and digest the US post-2017 studies, and until we know beyond reasonable doubt that we are not harming the infant brain or the environment.
House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8 pm.

Sue Gray Report

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Statement
19:02
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
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My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“First, I want to express my deepest gratitude to Sue Gray and all the people who have contributed to this report, which I have placed in the Library of this House and the Government have published in full today for everyone to read. I will address its findings in this Statement but first I want to say sorry. I am sorry for the things we simply did not get right and sorry for the way this matter has been handled. It is no use saying that this or that was within the rules. It is no use saying that people were working hard. This pandemic was hard for everyone. We asked people across this country to make the most extraordinary sacrifices—not to meet loved ones, not to visit relatives before they died—and I understand the anger that people feel.

But, Mr Speaker, it is not enough to say sorry. This is a moment when we must look at ourselves in the mirror and we must learn. And while the Metropolitan Police must yet complete its investigation—and that means there are no details of specific events in Sue Gray’s report—I, of course, accept Sue Gray’s general findings in full, and above all her recommendation that we must learn from these events and act now.

With respect to the events under police investigation, she says:

‘No conclusions should be drawn, or inferences made from this other than it is now for the police to consider the relevant material in relation to those incidents.’


But more broadly she finds that:

‘There is significant learning to be drawn from these events which must be addressed immediately across Government. This does not need to wait for the police investigations to be concluded.’


That is why we are making changes now to the way Downing Street and the Cabinet Office run so that we can get on with the job: the job that I was elected to do, and that this Government were elected to do.

First, it is time to sort out what Sue Gray rightly calls the ‘fragmented and complicated’ leadership structures of Downing Street, which she says

‘have not evolved sufficiently to meet the demands of’

the expansion of No. 10. We will do that, including by creating an Office of the Prime Minister, with a Permanent Secretary to lead No. 10.

Secondly, it is clear from Sue Gray’s report that it is time not just to review the Civil Service and special adviser codes of conduct wherever necessary to ensure they take account of Sue Gray’s recommendations but also to make sure those codes are properly enforced.

Thirdly, I will be saying more in the coming days about the steps we will take to improve the No. 10 operation and the work of the Cabinet Office, to strengthen Cabinet government and to improve the vital connection between No. 10 and Parliament.

I get it and I will fix it. And I want to say to the people of this country: I know what the issue is. It is whether this Government can be trusted to deliver. And I say yes, we can be trusted—yes, we can be trusted to deliver. We said that we would deliver Brexit, and we did. We are setting up freeports across the whole United Kingdom. I have been to one of them today which is creating tens of thousands of new jobs. We said we would get this country through Covid, and we did. We delivered the fastest vaccine rollout in Europe and the fastest booster programme of any major economy, so that we have been able to restore people’s freedoms faster than any comparable economy.

At the same time, we have been cutting crime by 14%, building 40 new hospitals and rolling out gigabit broadband, and delivering all the other promises of our 2019 agenda, so that we have the fastest economic growth in the G7. We have shown that we can do things that people thought were impossible, and that we can deliver for the British people. The reason we are coming out of Covid so fast is at least partly because we doubled the speed of the booster rollout.

I can tell the House and this country that we are going to bring the same energy and commitment to getting on with the job of delivering for the British people, and to our mission to unite and level up across this country.

I commend this Statement to the House.”

19:07
Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
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I am grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating today’s Statement by the Prime Minister—a Statement that, for anyone who heard it for the first time around, came across ever so briefly as an apology before moving along to its primary purpose: a thinly veiled attempt to lay the blame on others and move the news agenda on; a desperate attempt that will fool nobody who has read Sue Gray’s report and who understands the serious implications of the fact that the Metropolitan Police has 12 cases of concern that it believes reach the threshold of potential criminality. These cases include evidence of serious and flagrant breaches of lockdown, including one party that Mr Johnson definitely attended and another in his Downing Street flat—he refuses to say whether he was there or not. We also now know that the police have 300 photos and over 500 documents in relation to these cases.

We are thankful for Sue Gray’s diligence and professionalism in carrying out her investigation, but the Prime Minister must keep his promise to publish the full report when it is available. I therefore ask the noble Baroness the Leader, on behalf of all in your Lordships’ House, to encourage him to do so and respond to me in writing when she has done so. We are all aware of the deep sacrifices made by many people in our country over the past two years. Anyone with a shred of decency will know what that involved; the missed time with loved ones and close friends, not being there at key moments in the calendar of life and death. Anyone who has had a conversation with friends or family in recent weeks about those missed events will know that guilt abounds among those who were not willing to take a chance during their moments of deep despair. They did not want to risk breaking or bending lockdown rules—not even in the darkest of times.

That is why the revelations of misbehaviour at No. 10 are so appalling—and with them, the Prime Minister’s attempt to distance himself from what happened on his watch, under his lockdown rules. As my right honourable friend Keir Starmer said earlier this afternoon:

“Our national story about covid is one of a people who stood up when they were tested, but that will be forever tainted by the behaviour of this Conservative Prime Minister.”


Mr Johnson has tried to take the public for fools, and even now is playing for time, trying to kick the can down the road until the police conclude their investigation. That is a protective shield, temporary or otherwise, which flies in the face of the honesty, integrity and moral authority that the office of Prime Minister expects. Is anyone really surprised by any of this? Is the Leader of the House herself surprised—or does she want to vouch for his character?

In his Statement today the Prime Minister said that

“it is clear from Sue Gray’s report that it is time not just to review the civil service and special adviser codes of conduct, wherever necessary, to … take account of Sue Gray’s recommendations, but to make sure that those codes are properly enforced”.

That is a clear attempt by Mr Johnson to try to apportion blame elsewhere. However, this is not just about codes of conduct being broken but, as the report itself makes apparent, it was also a failure of leadership—an issue not just of structures in the workplace but of the culture.

Does the Leader of the House not agree that breaking such codes is not the whole picture? It is also the failure of those in leadership positions, including the person at the top, to ensure adherence and enforcement. Perhaps the Prime Minister’s own failure to deal with the Home Secretary breaking the Ministerial Code signalled to others working at No. 10 that codes and rules are little more than an inconvenience to how they should conduct their business.

Mr Johnson’s close allies are, like him, keen to move on to other issues both at home and abroad. Yet this afternoon we heard reports that a vital telephone call with President Putin was cancelled—as the West faces its gravest threat to peace in decades. I hope that the Leader of the House can assure noble Lords that these reports are incorrect, and that the call went ahead as planned.

It will be said that Sue Gray’s report is a distraction—but let us not forget what, and who, is at the root of this. A Prime Minister who is having to make statements in Parliament on the back of an investigation into potential criminal behaviour by his staff and himself, during a pandemic whose legal restrictions they designed. That is the issue at hand, and it goes to the heart of Mr Johnson’s character and his suitability for high office.

Lord Newby Portrait Lord Newby (LD)
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My Lords, I suspect that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House can never have been so uncomfortable in repeating a Statement by the Prime Minister as when she read out the Statement today—because it is truly abject. It relates to 16 gatherings in Downing Street at a time when such events were not allowed for the rest of us, 12 of which are the subject of an ongoing criminal investigation by the police.

Although the Gray report contains no factual evidence and is, in substance, only six pages long, its conclusions are damning. They are that some of the gatherings, at least, represent

“a serous failure to observe not just the high standards expected of those working at the heart of Government but also of the standards expected of the entire British population at the time.”

It talks of

“failures of leadership and judgment”.

It states:

“Some of the events should not have been allowed to take place. Other events should not have been allowed to develop as they did.”


It says:

“The excessive consumption of alcohol is not appropriate in a professional workplace at any time.”


It says that the use of the Downing Street garden was “not appropriate”.

If this were any other institution—a school, a hospital, or a professional services firm—these conclusions, coupled as they are with an ongoing police investigation, would have led to the suspension or dismissal of the head of the institution. That action would be taken because the leader of any other institution has to take responsibility for the ethos of that institution, even if they themselves did not break the rules. In this case, however, not only was the ethos wrong, but the Prime Minister appears to have broken the rules himself.

Far from resigning, however, the Prime Minister thinks that saying sorry, tinkering with the Downing Street structure and amending the Civil Service Code is enough. He says that the only issue facing him, and the country, is whether the Government can be trusted to deliver on their policy programme. But it is not. The question is whether the Prime Minister can be trusted to behave ethically and in accordance with the rules. Because if he cannot, he is not fit for office. It is as simple as that.

The report shows that, in advance of any judgment by the police, the Prime Minister has presided over multiple breaches of the rules. By breaking his own rules, he loses any capacity to persuade others—whether that be individual citizens or the President of Russia—to take his injunctions to follow the law seriously. To put it another way, he loses the capacity to govern.

The Leader of the House is an extremely invidious position, because she is having to answer questions on what is, in reality, a personal statement by the Prime Minister about his own probity—for which she can hardly be held responsible. So I shall ask her only three questions. First, as the lack of leadership shown over this affair starts at the top, in addition to the Civil Service Code will she enjoin the Prime Minister to amend the Ministerial Code, to tighten up the rules for Ministers, and not just for the officials whom they are supposed to lead?

More importantly, the noble Baroness is a member of the Cabinet. Her job is to proffer her views to the Prime Minister and then, under the rules of collective responsibility, to follow Cabinet decisions. But I think she also has an obligation to your Lordships’ House to let us know where she stands. Does she believe that the failures of leadership shown by the Prime Minister justify her resignation? I am sorry, I meant “his resignation”; I do not hold the noble Baroness responsible for the sins of the Prime Minister. Does she think those failures justify his resignation? And if not, on what basis does she believe the British people can ever trust him again?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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I thank noble Lords for their comments. May I first wish the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, well, and hope she gets better soon? I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for stepping in at such short notice.

In response to both noble Lords, I say that the Prime Minister has apologised. He has made it clear that he understands people’s anger, as he should, and that he wants to get on with the job of starting to implement the immediate findings of Sue Gray’s report. He has said he takes full responsibility; he has apologised; he is committed to making changes to address these issues; and he will work tirelessly to regain people’s trust.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the publication of further material once the Met investigation has finished. Of course, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further while the investigation is ongoing, and the Prime Minister has said that at the end of the process he will ask Sue Gray to update her work in the light of what is found. He will publish that update, but he has been clear that we cannot judge an ongoing investigation, and his focus now is on addressing the general findings.

Both noble Lords referred to some of the findings in the Gray report, which are extremely uncomfortable and disappointing. We have accepted all the findings in full, including, as the noble Lord said:

“There were failures of leadership and judgment by different parts of No. 10 and the Cabinet Office at different times.”


That is why the Prime Minister has already announced the beginnings of some work to try to address that.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about the Ministerial Code. We are carefully considering the reports by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, the report by Nigel Boardman and other reports from Parliament and, as laid out in correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, from December 2021, the Prime Minister will be discussing further how the independent adviser’s office can be better supported and ensuring that it has access to appropriate information when conducting its work. The Prime Minister has asked the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, to work with officials to provide advice on this issue and we have pledged to conclude this by March.

As I have said, I cannot comment on an ongoing police investigation and I will not prejudge its findings, but I certainly assure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the Prime Minister is leading international action on Ukraine. I set out in a Statement that I repeated last week all the engagement and conversations that he has had and how we are leading in various international forums. It continued to be his primary focus and I am sure that in the next couple of days your Lordships’ House will have the opportunity to discuss the Statement that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made this afternoon in the House of Commons on this very subject.

19:21
Lord Browne of Ladyton Portrait Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
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My Lords, in paragraph 14 of this update, we learn why this is a minimalist report at the request of the Metropolitan Police so as not to prejudice their investigations. In paragraph 13, we learn that Sue Gray has been instructed and has undertaken to store and safekeep all the information gathered

“until such time as it may be required further”,

and to keep it “in confidence”. In answer to a question in the other place, the Prime Minister, in avoiding giving an undertaking to publish an unredacted version of the full report, clearly referred to—although I do not have the Hansard, so I may not get the words exactly right—legal considerations about one account that had been given to Sue Gray. There were legal considerations about it that prevented him giving that undertaking was the inference to be drawn from his answer. Who has been talking to the Prime Minister about accounts that witnesses have given and how does he know that?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I have said, I cannot comment on the ongoing Met investigation, but what I can say is that the Prime Minister has said—or the Government have now said—that at the end of the process, following the Met investigation, the Prime Minister will ask Sue Gray to update her work in the light of what is found and we will publish that update.

Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone Portrait Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)
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My Lords, I think the House will agree that if the Labour, Liberal or Conservative parties fund anyone’s work, that is a matter for them, but anyone who is funded by the taxpayer should comply with the Nolan principles—the Seven Principles of Public Life—of selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. There seems to have been a distinct lack of coherence and those cultural values. Can the Minister comment on whether she feels that the balance has changed too far, with those working in No. 10 being short-term political appointments rather than longer-term civil servants with greater judgment who can exercise that discretion in very difficult circumstances?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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The Prime Minister has said that he will act and make changes to the way that No. 10 and the Cabinet Office are run. I do not want to prejudge that, but he has said that in the coming days we will say more on this matter and I will be happy to update the House when that happens.

Lord Kerslake Portrait Lord Kerslake (CB)
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My Lords, there is a certain irony in the fact that the very seriousness of the events has prevented us from getting the report from Sue Gray that we were all expecting. Even without the detail, the general findings are utterly damning. Does the Minister recognise that this is as appalling and shocking to the vast majority of civil servants as it is to the public? Can she also say whether she agrees with those who seek to, in my view, trivialise the issues by talking about prosecco parties when we should be talking about Putin? This goes to the heart of government and whether the Government can be trusted to do the right thing and tell the truth. It is hard to think of anything more important than that.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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I certainly hope that the noble Lord does not think that I am trivialising anything; I certainly am not. As I say, in his Statement and repeatedly, the Prime Minister has apologised. He understands people’s anger, quite rightly, and he wants to get on to the job of starting to implement Sue Gray’s findings, which I think is an important step now to move on while we have to wait for the ongoing investigation by the Met.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
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My Lords, may I reinforce what has been said already about the Civil Service? This is a failure of leadership, and of political leadership. I thought that the article yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Hannan—who is sadly not in his place at the moment—which blamed the Civil Service, and very much dismissed the efficiency of the Civil Service, was disgraceful in this context.

Can I also ask about the statement on making sure that the codes are properly enforced? In her first reply, the Leader of the House referred to reconsidering how they might be better enforced but, as we all know, the enforcement of those codes depends on the Prime Minister himself. Are we now at last going to move to what the Committee on Standards in Public Life has recommended, which is statutory independence for these regulators, including the Prime Minister’s independent adviser, or are we just going to go on with a situation where we have to trust that the Prime Minister will please himself and those around him when necessary?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I answered in response to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, who asked a similar question, we are carefully considering the reports by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, the report by Nigel Boardman and other reports that have been published. I also said that, in correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, the Prime Minister will be discussing further how the independent adviser’s office can be better supported and ensuring that it has access to appropriate information. The Prime Minister has asked the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, to work with officials to provide this advice, and the Government have pledged to conclude this by March.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con)
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My Lords, we should all be grateful to my noble friend for delivering this very shameful Statement with such dignity. We must also recognise that the leadership of any campaign must be from the elected House. However, would it not be reasonable to say that what this Statement from the Prime Minister amounts to is, very simply, mea culpa?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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Certainly, the Prime Minister makes clear in his Statement, and says explicitly, that he is sorry for things that have been got wrong and for the way that things have bene handled and he understands people’s anger. That is why he has accepted in full the initial findings of this Gray report and wants to get on straight away with implementing changes to address them.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
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My Lords, the noble Baroness has attempted to answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, to the best of her ability, I have no doubt. But would she agree that, when the report refers to “failures of leadership”, it is not clear from what the Prime Minister said in his Statement that he understands or accepts that his own leadership is included among those failures? It would be helpful if the noble Baroness could assure the House—again, to the best of her ability—that he does understand that. If he does, what implications follow from that? I think that is really the question that we are not yet able to answer.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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The Prime Minister has said that he takes full responsibility; he has repeatedly apologised and, as this Statement shows, is committed to making changes to address these issues. Hence, as I mentioned, he is going to look at changes to the way that No. 10 and the Cabinet Office are run, creating an office of the Prime Minister with a permanent secretary and a review of various codes, as discussed. He has said that he will say more in the coming days about the steps being taken to improve the No. 10 operation and the work of the Cabinet Office, to strengthen Cabinet government and to improve the connection between No. 10 and Parliament. He has certainly said that he takes these matters extremely seriously.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Portrait Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
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My Lords, is that not where it has all gone wrong? This is not something that started with this Prime Minister—the way in which the role of Cabinet government has been eroded and the relationship with the Civil Service. I can remember being in government and, if Robin Butler—the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell—said “Jump”, you jumped, because there was respect for the Civil Service. Now we have got into a situation where we have special advisers—many of whom have never had a proper job—telling Secretaries of State what to do. We really need to go back to the principle that Secretaries of State are in charge of their departments, the Prime Minister is first among equals, and we have respect for the Civil Service and do not try to blame officials when things go wrong.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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I certainly agree with my noble friend that there should be no finger-pointing. As the Prime Minister said, we need to look in the mirror and learn for ourselves. However, I would push back slightly on my noble friend’s characterisation of special advisers, not least because I am married to a former one. That is not a fair assertion across the piece. There are of course things we need to learn and ways in which we need to work better. This Statement makes that clear, and we now all need to work together and move forward to make sure we can implement the changes that are needed, in order to ensure that lessons are learned from what we have discovered.

Lord Butler of Brockwell Portrait Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)
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My Lords, I do not fully recognise the picture portrayed by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in relation to myself, but I am deeply saddened by the portrait of 10 Downing Street in Sue Gray’s report. I welcome the proposal to create a Permanent Secretary post to lead No. 10. Can the noble Baroness assure us that this will be a permanent Civil Service post with unambiguous authority over both special advisers and civil servants?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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I am afraid that the noble Lord may have gone a few steps ahead of what I am able to say today. This is a commitment to create an office of the Prime Minister with a Permanent Secretary to lead No. 10. No doubt there will be a lot of discussions, including with distinguished people who have expertise in this area, such as the noble Lord himself, to make sure that we get the right structure going forward, which is something we all want to achieve.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I am very concerned by the Prime Minister’s phrase that he will invite Sue Gray to update her findings once the police investigation has concluded. Is the Prime Minister expecting, or should I say hoping, that the Metropolitan Police will establish alternative facts to those established by Sue Gray?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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No, the Prime Minister has been quite clear that, at the end of the process, he will ask Sue Gray to update her work in light of what has been found, and it will be published.

Lord Robertson of Port Ellen Portrait Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)
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My Lords, one of my predecessors as Secretary-General of NATO was Lord Carrington. During the Falklands War, although he bore no direct responsibility for the invasion of the Falkland Islands, in honour and in dignity he took full responsibility and resigned as Foreign Secretary of this country. Does the noble Baroness not think that the Prime Minister might like to follow the example of that great Conservative?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I say, the Prime Minister has apologised and said it is entirely right for the police to investigate these matters. We now need to wait for the results of that investigation.

Lord Lansley Portrait Lord Lansley (Con)
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My Lords, Sue Gray’s report did not extend to the question of what was said to the House of Commons by the Prime Minister in relation to these events over a number of months. Could my noble friend say when and by what means the Prime Minister is proposing to correct the record for the House, when it was inadvertently or otherwise misled?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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At all times, the Prime Minister has set out his understanding of events. He has taken full responsibility and apologised. He wants to make changes to address these issues and will work tirelessly to regain people’s trust.

Baroness Wheatcroft Portrait Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
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My Lords, the Sue Gray report, even in its redacted form, is very critical of what went on at No. 10. The Leader has repeatedly said that Boris Johnson accepts full responsibility for what took place. We are now led to believe that several heads will roll as a result, but not, it seems, that of the Prime Minister. I wonder whether the Leader could say whether that seems right.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I have said, the Prime Minister has taken full responsibility and is working to address these issues. I cannot comment on an ongoing police investigation and am not going to prejudge its findings.

Viscount Stansgate Portrait Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, when the sorry episode of this Government comes to be written, one of the parts of today’s Statement that will attract a great deal of interest is that which says that the Government intend to set up an office of the Prime Minister. I would like to follow the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler. We are a parliamentary democracy, and a Prime Minister is primus inter pares. The development outlined in this Statement indicates that the Government are thinking of moving towards a much more presidential style, with a proper office of the Prime Minister at No. 10. In view of the long-term potential significance of this, will the Leader find time for a debate in government time in this House so we can explore the constitutional, longer-term implications of what is being proposed?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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I am sure there will be a lot of discussions around this issue.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, could the noble Baroness say a little more about the setting up of a new regime in No. 10? Will Parliament be involved in any way in the selection and approval of the Permanent Secretary to head the Prime Minister’s office?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I am afraid that some of these questions are jumping ahead. What I can say is what I have already said: that the Prime Minister has said he will create an office of the Prime Minister, with a Permanent Secretary. He has also said that “in the coming days”, he will say more about the steps being taken

“to improve the No. 10 operation and the work of the Cabinet Office, to strengthen Cabinet Government, and to improve the … connection between No. 10 and Parliament.”

I am afraid I cannot go further than that.

Baroness Rawlings Portrait Baroness Rawlings (Con)
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My Lords, this afternoon the Prime Minister answered many questions by saying, “We will wait until the Metropolitan Police report is published”. I wonder whether we have any idea when it might be published.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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The Metropolitan Police put out a statement this afternoon in which it said it was working “at pace”, but it did not give a specific timescale. I am afraid that I cannot say more than that, but it has confirmed what it is investigating. It has had a lot of evidence from the Cabinet Office and is now working at pace to continue the investigation, but I am afraid I do not have a timescale.

Lord Desai Portrait Lord Desai (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that 10 Downing Street and the structure of the Prime Minister’s office is the poorest accommodation of any Prime Minister of the G7, the G20—or the G140? You cannot have a Prime Minister living in a flat with 50 or 60 people running around below, day and night. Not only do we need an office of the Prime Minister, but we need a dignified working environment away from the private home of the Prime Minister which does justice to the complexity of the work and to the dignity of the Prime Minister. We cannot have the Prime Minister living in a top-floor flat with people running around having parties in the evening. Whether he likes it or not, he will be blamed for it. That needs urgent reform. I know it sounds trivial.

None Portrait Noble Lords
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Question!

Lord Desai Portrait Lord Desai (Non-Afl)
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I very much want the Prime Minister of the country to be properly housed.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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The noble Lord picks up some of the points made by Sue Gray—for instance, the use of the garden and No. 10 not being able to be made particularly Covid-secure. Some of the points he makes have been recognised. The report also finds that, while

“The number of staff working in No 10 Downing Street has steadily increased”


to the point that

“it is now more akin to a small Government Department… The structures that support the smooth operation … have not evolved sufficiently to meet the demands of this expansion.”

That is what we will look into trying to solve.

Lord Bishop of Durham Portrait The Lord Bishop of Durham
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My Lords, I thank the Leader for all she has done so far. I spend time talking to children, and sometimes they cut to the chase. Last week, year 6 children in primary schools said to me, “Do you trust the Prime Minister? Can we trust him?” They were not interested in parties, civil servants and special advisers. It was: can we trust the Prime Minister?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As the Statement makes clear, the Prime Minister has said to the people of this country that he knows the issue is trust and that we are a Government who can be trusted to deliver. He also understands that we need to work tirelessly to prove that.

None Portrait Noble Lords
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My Lords—

Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
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It is actually Labour’s turn.

Lord Liddle Portrait Lord Liddle (Lab)
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My Lords, setting aside the issue of criminality which is, of course, very important in this matter, can the noble Baroness ever imagine these types of events having occurred during the premierships of Margaret Thatcher, John Major, David Cameron or Theresa May? I certainly know that, from my experience, nothing like this happened under Tony Blair. Is there not something fundamentally wrong about the culture of this Prime Minister’s leadership?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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We have said that the Prime Minister has apologised. He wants to look at making changes. He has taken responsibility and we are now looking at how we can implement these findings in order to address many of the concerns that have been expressed.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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My Lords, a very reasonable person on the number 82 bus in Sheffield will ask this very basic question: how does tweaking the structures of No. 10 change the way a leader at the top exercises their personal judgment and allows rule-breaking to take place on their watch?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)
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As I have said, the Prime Minister has said that he is sorry for things that have been got wrong and for the ways that things have been handled. He understands the anger of people. What we want to do now is to address some of these issues but most importantly get on with delivering on the agenda that people voted for in 2019 and make sure that we deliver on the things on the ground that people see in their everyday lives in order to improve life for everyone in this country.

Data Protection: Immigration Exemption

Monday 31st January 2022

(2 years, 1 month ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Motion to Take Note
19:41
Moved by
Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick
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That this House takes note of (1) the Data Protection Act 2018 (Amendment of Schedule 2 Exemption) Regulations 2022 and the safeguards to protect individual data subject rights, and (2) the Court of Appeal judgment in Open Rights Group and another v the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

Relevant documents: 25th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I have asked that these regulations be brought to the attention of the House to highlight what appears not to be an isolated incident of the courts ruling against the Government, requiring the Government to change the law, and the Government not complying fully with the court’s findings. In such circumstances, the only course of action is for a further case to be brought against the Government in the courts to rectify the situation, which clearly costs both time and money and needs non-governmental organisations or philanthropists to bring such an action. Such contempt for the courts should be drawn to the attention of the House, hence this Motion.

Liberal Democrats opposed the immigration exemption when we debated the Data Protection Act in 2018. The Government sought to exempt data controllers and let them bypass and restrict fundamental data rights if officials believed compliance with data protection law was prejudicial to the maintenance of effective immigration control through what has become known as the immigration exemption. This could be used by the Home Office to withhold information from those applying for leave to remain in the UK, for example, hampering their ability to challenge Home Office decisions to withhold permission.

The Court of Appeal decided the immigration exemption contained inadequate safeguards to protect individual data subject rights and was therefore incompatible with the UK GDPR. This SI is an attempt to comply with the judgment. Legal minds greater than mine say that this statutory instrument does not bring legislation into line with the Court of Appeal judgment. The court said greater safeguards needed to be incorporated into legislation and not just placed in guidance, but that is exactly what this SI proposes to do. The court said legislation needed to be clear and precise; not simply the withholding of information which is in the interests of immigration control. The court said the consequences of the law must be foreseeable to those it is likely to affect, unlike this SI that relies on guidance that can be changed at any time, without notice and without parliamentary scrutiny.

I understand the Home Office has been distracted—have not we all?—by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill and the Nationality and Borders Bill. The Minister will no doubt agree with me that we need this Motion like a hole in the head, but we will not allow the totally unreasonable tabling of government business to prevent us from bringing matters to the attention of the House when we believe the Government are not complying with the orders of a court. I beg to move.

19:45
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD)
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My Lords, it is disappointing that the procedures of your Lordships’ House effectively precluded us from voting on this SI. When we debated the draft in Grand Committee, we said that we would table a regret Motion but the Government were, of course, aware of the 31 January deadline for producing a measure in response to the Court of Appeal and apparently there was no time for a regret Motion and the usual channels arranged for this take-note Motion.

The Government are obviously proper in complying with the court order in the timing, if not the content, but Parliament should have seen the draft SI earlier, had an opportunity not only to scrutinise it but to debate what it took from that scrutiny and to vote on it. I have drawn this to the attention of the chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, given that committee’s and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s focus at the moment on procedures.

We are all aware of the deficiencies when we deal with secondary legislation. We knew that we would not win a vote in the Chamber because the Labour spokesman in Grand Committee supported the regulations, although we were grateful that he agreed with much of what we said during that debate. We wanted again to put our opposition on record. I thank the Minister for her explanation of the SI during that debate and I will try not to repeat too much of what was said then but will focus on the Minister’s remarks.

The Court of Appeal required the Government to amend the Data Protection Act to remedy its incompatibility with retained EU law so that it satisfies requirements of Article 23(2) of the UK GDPR. The declaration was suspended until today to provide a reasonable time to do so. That judgment was, I think, in October so they have had plenty of time. Although this is an SI amending the Act, it does not achieve that objective. The Secretary of State must have regard under the SI to the “immigration exemption policy document” and a draft IEPD was published at the same time as the draft SI.

That policy document can be amended. It can be replaced. It is not primary legislation. It is not secondary legislation. It is not legislation at all. It is not even unamendable legislation—secondary legislation cannot be amended. It is not a “legislative measure” within the terms of Article 23(2) which the Court of Appeal described as “remarkably specific”. It is not “part and parcel” of the legislation. It is not even a code of practice or a codification of safeguards; it is simply a policy document. Parliament cannot carry out a scrutiny function in which the outcome may, in theory, be changed even if we know the realities of dealing with secondary legislation. Parliament can play no meaningful part.

In Grand Committee, I asked the Minister how the policy document builds on previous arrangements, as it appears simply to repeat existing safeguards, and also for details of the Government’s consultation with interested parties and how the issues raised in consultation have been dealt with. I am grateful to her for the letter I received this afternoon, by email, in response to this—she said she would let me have the detail if it was not data protected. I am glad to note that some points were taken on board—but not all, quite clearly, because those with whom she consulted were those who brought the case to court. She said that

“the Department published the IEPD in draft form alongside the draft Regulations on the 10th December … enabling stakeholders the opportunity to consider its contents and to comment accordingly.”

Given that this policy document is central to the arrangements, I am surprised that not publishing it could ever have been thought to be an option.

In response to my question in Grand Committee, as to how one should challenge the Home Office if one does not know what it knows, or thinks it knows, to rectify errors—how would you rectify errors if you do not know that there are errors?—the Minister said that the exemption did not restrict the right to seek rectification of inaccurate data. That does not answer the question; it merely makes that question even more important. She also said that the exemption could not be used to prevent a person establishing a legal claim—which also begs the question.

It is not in contention that this data is very significant. Lord Justice Warby said the exemption

“plays a significant role in practice as a brake on access to personal data”—

one’s own data. He referred to Home Office evidence that the exemption was relied on in 59% of responses during the period in question, and that the exemption was available in a wide range of cases. The Minister in Grand Committee made much of how limited its use is and that only the minimum is redacted—only small parts of documents that contain sensitive data that could affect operations. So, I have a request and suggestion that the Home Office, in the current version of the policy document, in paragraph nine, which is a checklist for users—that is, caseworkers—should add to the list that there should be the minimum redaction. That may be implied by other parts of the document, but what caseworkers consider is crucial, and paragraph nine is what they will go to. Can the point that she made, and on which she relied, about the minimum redaction not be spelled out clearly in the checklist? I support my noble friend.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
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My Lords, I want—briefly—to supplement the remarks of my noble friends. As I said in Grand Committee, I commend my noble friend Lady Hamwee for her consistent and determined opposition to this immigration exemption. During the passage of the Bill, we were not able to delete the original provisions, but we are quite clear on these benches that this new SI does not at all reflect the safeguards required by the GDPR and by the Court of Appeal’s decision. As I said in Committee, I can only wonder what kind of advice the Minister has had. How has she been able to convince herself that this SI will not meet the same fate as the previous provisions? My noble friends referred to what Lord Justice Warby had to say, and what needs to be done is extremely clear. I do not think there is any need to repeat what my noble friends have said.

It is utterly clear that the provisions being put in place do not comply with GDPR—particularly with Recital 41, and certainly not in the way Lord Justice Warby interpreted that recital. The Home Office, regardless of the law, is going forward with this new proposal with an IEPD which is simply not good enough in terms of its legislative status. As both my noble friends said, it adds nothing in the way of safeguards which were already there.

The Minister seemed to be saying in Grand Committee the Home Office had taken on board the points made by the Open Rights Group and the3million, but that she would ascertain what those points were. Sadly, I have not received a copy of the Minster’s letter, so I do not know what those points are. I hope the Minister will adumbrate those in her response this evening. It is clear that the Home Office is in great danger of having another successful judicial review against it on these regulations.

Despite our best efforts in Grand Committee, the Minister did not deal with the fundamental issue of the mechanism being used to introduce this form of exemption. We were reminded today in the Commons about what Margaret Thatcher said:

“The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it’s inconvenient, if Government does that, then so will the governed and then nothing is safe—not home, not liberty, not life itself.”


Wise words. Bobbing and weaving and ducking—is that not precisely what the Government are doing on this issue?

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Portrait Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
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My Lords, we last debated this on 19 January and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for bringing this Take Note Motion to the House. To put it on the record, in 2018 the Labour Party opposed the immigration exemption, but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, accurately said, we voted in favour of the Government’s position regarding the statutory instrument which we considered on 19 January.

I reread the lobbying material we have received from the Open Rights Group and the3million. It is clear that the Court of Appeal suspended the effect of its declaration until 31 January—which is today—and I do not know enough about the procedure of that court, but will we receive some information, maybe through the Government, of the result of that declaration? I can see that both noble Lords are shaking their head.

I thank the Minister for copying me in on the letter she sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. It makes clear there was some attempt at consulting the Open Rights Group and the3million, but clearly that discussion did not result in placating those groups. So it may well be that there is a further judicial review or a further challenge by those groups. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has very fully set out the likely basis for that challenge.

As we said in the aftermath of the debate on the statutory instrument, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Clement-Jones, have a lot of experience with this Bill, having debated it in 2018 and having brought the matter back repeatedly since then. We on the Labour Benches will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say. As I said, we originally opposed this element of the Bill and we would be interested to see how confident the Minister is that the changes put forward by the Government will not result in a further challenge.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. As noble Lords will know, paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act 2018 outlines specific rights under the UK GDPR that can be restricted if they would likely prejudice either

“the maintenance of effective immigration control, or … the investigation or detection of activities that would undermine the maintenance of effective immigration control”,

known as the immigration exemption. As noble Lords have pointed out, these regulations amend the immigration exemption, following the judgment in the case of Open Rights Group & another v the Secretary of State for the Home Department. This statutory instrument builds on existing safeguards of individual rights and should be welcomed.

20:00
In its ruling, the court made it absolutely clear that it was up to the Government which limbs of Article 23(2) were relevant. At paragraph 54 of the judgment, Lord Justice Warby said:
“It may be open to the legislature to conclude that one or more of the matters listed in Article 23(2) is not relevant to this particular exemption. It may even be entitled to conclude that although a particular matter is relevant it is unnecessary to set limits any narrower than those contained in the GDPR itself.”
Recital 41 of the UK GDPR, to which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, refers, does not specify what is required by way of form or content of a “legislative measure”. Recital 41 states that:
“Where this Regulation refers to a legal basis or a legislative measure, this does not necessarily require a legislative act adopted by a parliament”.
Recital 41 applies to legislative measures, and as such—
Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
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My Lords, if I may interrupt the Minister, Lord Justice Warby’s decision on that is utterly clear about what Recital 41 does require. That is precisely the point of contention.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, it is, but it does not specify by way of form or content of the legislative measure, and that is the point I am trying to make.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
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But it has to be a legislative measure, not guidance.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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Perhaps I could reiterate that Recital 41 states that:

“Where this Regulation refers to a legal basis or a legislative measure, this does not necessarily require a legislative act adopted by a parliament”.


We will beg to differ on that, but I am just quoting what Recital 41 says.

To address the court’s concerns, the regulations therefore amend the immigration exemption, primarily to include all the relevant matters in Article 23(2)(a) to (h) of the UK GDPR. It might be helpful if I provide some details on those matters that are not relevant and are already covered in the DPA 2018. For those particular matters, no amendments are needed to the legislation, as well as for those matters that are not relevant. I will provide some details on the measures that are relevant and for which amendments have been made.

Before I do that, I point out that the regulations introduced a statutory requirement for the department to have an immigration exemption policy document before the immigration exemption could actually be applied—that is in response to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. Regulation 2(2)(b) specified what must be addressed in the policy, and the controller must have regard to it. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, we are working to tighten the deadlines set by the court, and we did publish the IEPD draft on 10 December on GOV.UK.

Continuing now on what is and is not relevant, the following limbs of Article 23(2) are already sufficiently covered in the DPA 2018. Therefore, no amendments will be made to the legislation in relation to those limbs. They are, from Article 23(2):

“(a) the purposes of the processing or categories of processing; (b) the categories of personal data; (c) the scope of the restrictions introduced … (g) the risks to the rights and freedoms of data subjects”.


The requirement under Article 23(2)(f) to make provision in respect of

“the storage periods and the applicable safeguards taking into account the nature, scope and purposes of the processing or categories of processing”

is not relevant, as the immigration exemption does not purport to extend data storage periods, and so no amendments are proposed in this regard.

On amendments made in relation to Article 23(2)(d), including the IEPD, the article states that where relevant there shall be provisions for safeguards to prevent abuse or unlawful access or transfer. This instrument will introduce additional measures to address Article 23(2)(d). It will mandate the Secretary of State to have an immigration exemption policy document in place prior to the exemption being relied on; that they must have regard to their IEPD when applying the exemption; that a record is kept of the application of the immigration exemption; and that the data subject be informed of its application, save in certain circumstances.

The IEPD and any subsequent updates to it will be published in a manner that the Secretary of State considers appropriate. Publication will allow for flexibility, where future concerns arise—I will take back the comments that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, made this evening. There is no requirement to go through Parliament and any future concerns, if they arise, could be addressed in a shorter timeframe.

The regulations also specify what the IEPD must address. This additional measure will promote high standards of safeguards in applying the immigration exemption, consistent with those in relation to personal data relating to criminal convictions and offences. The IEPD explains how the immigration exemption must be operationally applied and the circumstances in which data rights might be exempted. These are set out in clear and precise terms. They will form part of Schedule 2 to the DPA 2018 once in force and, as such, will clearly constitute legislative measures.

Amendments are also made to Article 23(2)(e), on provisions as to the specification of the controller or categories of controllers, and to Article 23(2)(h), which states that where relevant there shall be provisions for the right of a data subject to be informed about the restriction, unless that is prejudicial to the purposes of the restriction—we went through that during the previous debate. The instrument will amend the immigration exemption so that the controller will have to inform the data subject that the exemption has been relied upon unless to do so would prejudice the purpose of the restriction, once again proving our commitment to be as open and transparent as we are able.

I am not sure whether it was the noble Baroness or the noble Lord who asked about the consultation process, but they almost played my words back to me. We consulted the parties to the litigation and the ICO and considered carefully their observations and comments, making amendments to the draft as appropriate, but clearly we did not take everyone’s comments on board, and therefore the court process came into being. We have tried, as far as possible, to address the issues through the IEPD.

I hope that noble Lords are now satisfied—I do not think they are, judging by their faces. I shall leave it there.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for reiterating the Government’s position. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee for her detailed analysis of the issues, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for his support, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede. To quote the Minister, I think we will have to agree to disagree. Sadly, another case appears to be inevitable. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Health and Care Bill

Committee (7th Day) (Continued)
20:09
Lord Ashton of Hyde Portrait Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
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My Lords, before we resume the debate, perhaps I may point out that we went very quickly last Wednesday—many thanks for that excellent performance. The last group also went quickly. May I respectfully point out that we need to do nine and a half groups this evening? Once again, I ask noble Lords to acknowledge how much we still have to do on this Bill and adjust their contributions accordingly if at all possible.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, debate on this group was somewhat interrupted and I will remind everyone that we are talking about dental health. I will speak first to Amendment 224 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt and others, to which I attached my name. It calls for a statement from the Secretary of State on access to dental care at regular intervals.

This comes back to a point I have made again and again about the Secretary of State taking responsibility and being forced to come before Parliament to take that responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, introduced the amendment clearly and I agree pretty well with everything he said. However, I will now start to disagree with him. I note that I am addressing a number of amendments on fluoridation that were signed by my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. Those who were paying attention before will note that her name was on the Annunciator as being in the other Committee Room when we started this group, so I am speaking on her behalf.

There is an interesting progression here because, if I had been asked to do that a few years ago, I would have been quite uncomfortable. Had I been asked a few years ago which Green Party policy I disagreed with, the one I would have questioned was our opposition to mass fluoridation. But I have been on a political and scientific journey since then and I have come to realise that fluoridation is one of those health measures and medical practices that came to be adopted because it seemed like a good idea, well before we did proper trials, work and consideration. As the noble Lord, Lord Reay, said, there is now increasing scientific questioning.

I do not want to go over the same ground as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, but will think about where we are and apply systems thinking to this. The fact is that, according to the Drinking Water Inspectorate, the number of people now willing to drink water from the taps in the UK has dropped from 90% in 1978 to 73% in 1998. To put it another way, one in four people now mistrust the water coming out of their taps and will not drink it.

We can see the impact of that if we happen to go into a supermarket. We see a great many people lugging large, often plastic, bottles of water. They are often people who are struggling to pay for that water, yet they are buying it because of their lack of trust in the water supply that is actually far healthier than what is in the bottles. I would urge them all to drink the tap water, which is the healthy option.

We have a real problem of trust—something we have seen in other contexts. This potential mass fluoridation imposed from the centre above is something that potentially could have a real impact on reducing tap water. The noble Lord, Lord Reay, said, “Well, people can’t afford it, so it’s the poorest who’ll be forced to drink the water”. But the evidence shows that many people who cannot afford it now—from more disadvantaged and BAME backgrounds and who suffer from many disadvantages—who are reluctant to drink that water. We have also seen these issues of trust around the Covid-19 vaccine. These issues could see real risks to dental health.

We also want to apply some real systems thinking. The noble Lord, Lord Reay, referred to the fact that Scotland has brought in some good, targeted programmes on dental health that help children learn to brush their teeth and address diet and the consumption of sugary foods that has so many other health issues. We know what happens in politics. We have a problem with tooth decay and the Government say, “Right, we’re doing fluoridation”. Where are we going to see the money, focus and attention on those targeted programmes that would reach the children who need it most?

20:15
Before the break, a number of noble Lords referred to studies that show that areas of the UK that are fluoridated have lower levels of tooth decay, particularly among children and disadvantaged children, than areas that are not, but those areas still have utterly unacceptably high levels of tooth decay, which has massive impacts. We tend to think about teeth in isolation, but we are talking about the health of those children in total. If we do not see that focus on targeted interventions, we are going to see mass medication, problem solved, box ticked, and we are not going to see the kind of steps forward that we need.
So this is about not mass medicating without consent. It is about trust, decision-making and being democratic. This is one more area in the Bill where the Government should think again.
Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
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My Lords, I shall respond to the injunction from the Front Bench and speak for less than two minutes. I had not planned to intervene in this debate, but I was provoked by my noble friend Lord Reay, with whom I find myself in respectful disagreement, and further provoked by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett.

Listening to my noble friend’s speech took me back 42 years. It was like Groundhog Day, because in March 1980 I had to sit through a speech lasting more than one hour by Ivan Lawrence on fluoridation. I was lucky because in 1985 he set a new record by speaking from 5.12 am until 9.35 am. I was refreshing my memory about what I said in response to the debate 42 years ago in just two paragraphs—I should explain that I was the Minister responsible at the time, when I said:

“I think I should first explain that fluoride occurs naturally in most water supplies, sometimes at a satisfactory level for the prevention of dental decay. Fluoridation consists merely of the adjustment to the optimum level for dental protection—one part per million in temperate climes—of the fluoride content of those water supplies that are deficient in it naturally. When water containing the optimum level of fluoride is consumed during the years of tooth formation, the protection conferred in childhood continues during adult life.”—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/1980; col. 792.]


I wound up:

“Finally, as my right hon. Friend indicated last January”—


that was January 1980—

“it remains the Government's view—like that of their predecessors for many years—that extensive trials throughout the world have shown that fluoridation safely and effectively reduces the prevalence of dental caries—one of the commonest diseases and one which has lifetime consequences for general and dental health.”—[Official Report, Commons, 6/3/1980; col. 799.]

Since that time, government policy has not been delivered, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, explained. Initially it was the area health authorities that did not do it, and now it is local authorities. It is now imperative that government policy is delivered, and that is why I wholeheartedly support these clauses in the Bill.

Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (LD)
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My Lords, I shall speak briefly on Amendments 224 and 261 and share my views on fluoridisation. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Reay, that it is a pity we did not have a proper full debate on this matter.

There is a real problem among young children, particularly those in deprived communities, who have increasing levels of bad teeth—dental decay. You would think that as a result of that situation we would be trying to do something more practical about it, yet we see dental inspections in schools decreasing. When I was first a head teacher, the dental services would come in twice a year to inspect children’s teeth and would give a little note to the parents so they could go to their dentist. The second problem we face is that, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, you cannot find an NHS dentist, particularly in a deprived area, for love nor money. That is a problem for families that cannot afford to use a private dentist, even if one was available.

When I was leader of the council in Liverpool, all political parties together—I have to tell my colleagues—decided against fluoridation, so we took the view that perhaps there was a different way of doing it. We were setting up the network of children’s centres in the early 2000s. We therefore made dental health in the nought to five age group one of the highest priorities in the city council’s strategic plan. We also issued additional guidance to our primary schools, asking them to make encouraging better dental health a higher priority. As a result, 10 years later in 2013, the British Dental Association’s 10-yearly survey showed that a reduction of 28% in caries had been achieved in Liverpool’s schools. The targeted approach achieved an outcome double that identified in the York review as the average caries reduction from fluoridation. We will also have helped many children to develop lifelong good personal dental hygiene habits, which is a crucial part of the strategy.

Whether we have fluoridation or not, we need to be absolutely sure that the journey we are going on is correct. In the meantime, we should look at other ways. We should also look at what our colleagues in Scotland have been doing with their Childsmile project, which has been shown to be safer, less wasteful and more effective, and better value for money. I hope that at some stage we will revisit this issue and have a much longer and more considered debate.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, this group rightly began with an amendment about adequate provision in dentistry. As we have heard, there is currently a massive shortfall in provision of NHS dentists and indeed dentists as a whole, so much so that a charity called Dentaid, which normally works in the third world, is now working in Dewsbury and Batley—and possibly in other parts of the country that I am not aware of—because people cannot get free dentistry. The situation is made worse by the backlog of treatment caused by the pandemic, whereby dentists were at first unable to see patients and later had to reduce the number of aerosol-producing treatments they could carry out each day.

I have no doubt that the condition of the nation’s teeth has deteriorated during the past couple of years. Nearly 1,000 dentists left the NHS between 2020 and 2021, according to the BDA. However, problems with access to NHS dentistry predate the pandemic. Government spending on dental services has fallen by a third in real terms in the last decade, and the £50 million one-off injection of funding announced recently will barely make a dent in the unprecedented backlog that NHS dentistry now faces.

However, it is also well proven that fluoride, however administered, can strengthen tooth enamel and help teeth to resist decay. The 2018 report from Public Health England made that clear and did not report adverse effects. In Clauses 147 and 148, the Government intend to ensure that the whole country has access to drinking water with at least 1 milligram per litre of water, the level believed to be most effective in reducing tooth decay without the unwanted effects mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and without waiting for local authorities to initiate schemes. I have to say that I believe Public Health England rather than the noble Lord.

I am always in favour of prevention and of reducing health inequalities, and it is claimed that this measure would do both, but there are some issues which I wish to probe. Currently only two areas in the country, Hartlepool and Braintree, have the optimum level of naturally occurring fluoride in their water. Other areas, covering about only 10% of the population, mainly in the north-east and Birmingham, already have schemes initiated by the local authority. I accept that a number of costly and bureaucratic barriers have been identified to more local authorities initiating such schemes, and I understand these clauses are an attempt to overcome them by making national regulations. These would remove some of the consultation costs from local authorities. However, some local authorities are reluctant to give up their local autonomy on this issue and believe their residents should be consulted before fluoridation occurs. This must be considered.

I have some questions for the Minister, which fall into two categories. The first is about costs and where they fall. We are told in the impact assessment that current schemes will not be affected, and existing and future capital costs will continue to be borne by the Department of Health and Social Care. What will be the additional burden on the funding of the Minister’s department of bearing the capital costs for every area in the country? I understand that regulations will allow for future costs to be shared by his department with water companies. What impact is that expected to have on the water bills paid by households, since the companies will undoubtedly try to pass it on to customers?

Water companies can well afford to pay these costs themselves, rather than take the money from the health budget. This is clear from the eye-wateringly high earnings of their leading directors. We know from a briefing from Yorkshire Water that the costs can be considerable. A few years ago, it did a feasibility study when only one area—Hull City Council—was looking into fluoridation. At the time, it estimated the capital cost to be £1.6 million to £2 million and the annual operation costs to be approximately £330,000 per year. These costs would have fallen on Public Health England and the local authority at the time, but under the new proposals they would be covered by the Department of Health and Social Care.

Over recent years, capital investment in water and sewerage services has been covered just by income from water bills, but investment in infrastructure has not been adequate, since we still have raw sewage being discharged into water courses and leaks wasting water at an unacceptable level. So, we can expect the companies to accept some of the cost of fluoridation themselves, without passing it on to the customer.

Can the Minister also say what is the plan for regular measurement of the fluoride content of water, and at what point in the delivery journey will it occur? What will this cost, and where will the cost fall? Will the Government allow companies to pass this cost on to the consumer too, although they can clearly afford to absorb it? The reason I ask is that water companies share water all the time and there is a possibility that, without frequent monitoring, the fluoride content delivered to customers could turn out to be either too high or too low to be effective.

The second category of question concerns what other proposals for reducing the incidence of tooth decay have been considered by the Government, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Storey. I have dealt with the availability of NHS dentistry, but it is excess sugar and acids in the diet that cause tooth decay. Sadly, poor diet is a major problem, particularly among poorer children, for whom the most common reason to be admitted to hospital is the need for complex extraction of rotten teeth. Fluoride can, of course, can be administered in other ways: either applied by the dentist or by regular use of fluoride-containing toothpaste—fortunately, most toothpastes contain fluoride. However, many children eat too much sugar, drink too many acidic fizzy drinks and do not brush their teeth regularly.

As my noble friend said, there used to be a school dentistry service to check for problems, and dental nurses used to visit nurseries and primary schools to teach good dental hygiene. I have myself sat in on such a session and it was excellent, but I do not believe it happens any longer. Have the Government costed a return to these schemes? As for diet, we will be dealing with that in a later group of amendments. So, while accepting the potential benefits of what is proposed, I ask the Minister to assure the House of the cost-effectiveness of the measures, explain the impact on family budgets and tell the House what other measures are being considered to achieve the same ends, which we all want to see: better and more equal dental health.

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
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My Lords, I welcome the amendments in this group, which focus on the need for universal access to dentistry and the introduction of fluoride into water. As my noble friend Lord Hunt said, they are about treatment and prevention, which are equally important when it comes to considering how we tackle tooth decay and oral health. I am grateful to my noble friend, the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, for their support for these amendments.

20:30
As we all know, poor oral health does not just affect teeth; it impacts on our general health and well-being, and it affects what we can eat, how we communicate, and how and whether we can work, study and socialise, and it also affects our self-confidence. Yet tooth decay is largely preventable.
We find ourselves faced with a significant public health problem linked with considerable regional variation and inequality. A three year-old living in Yorkshire and the Humber is more than twice as likely to have dental decay as a three year-old who lives in the east of England, and one in three five year-olds in the north-west has experience of dental decay, compared to nearly one in five in the south-east of England. I therefore welcome Amendment 224, which pursues universal access to NHS dentistry. We all know, through both facts and personal and other experiences, the difficulty in getting to see a dentist. As has already been said, that issue predates the pandemic.
I would be interested in hearing the comments of the Minister on a recent British Dental Association membership survey showing that morale in the profession is at an all-time low. Obviously, unless this can be turned around, the drift of dentists away from the NHS will only accelerate. We have long-standing, systemic problems, and the added challenges posed by Covid-19 mean that there is potential for a further exodus of dentists from the NHS. That threatens not just access for patients but the long-term sustainability of NHS dentistry in general. It would be helpful if the Minister could address that in his response.
Turning to fluoridation, according to the Oral Health Foundation this is the single most effective public health measure for reducing oral health inequalities and tooth-decay rates, especially among children. It is effective and safe, and recommended by the World Health Organization, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. It is something that would benefit both adults and children, reduce health inequalities and offer a significant return on investment.
I heard in the debate that the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, do not share this view. I say to noble Lords—this has come up several times in the debate—that introducing fluoride into water is not an either/or matter; it is part of an overall strategy. I hope that what we are talking about today is how we can get to a place where we have a proper, all-round approach to preventing oral ill-health and treating it where there is a need for dental care. It is not whether we do or do not introduce fluoride into water, but whether it is useful.
I would just gently say this, to back up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young: fluoride is a naturally occurring mineral; it is found in varying amounts in soil, food and drink, and in drinking-water supplies. Of course, as we know, there are some parts of the country where the level of fluoride in the public water supply already reaches the target concentration of water fluoridation schemes, as a result of the geology of the area. In other areas, the fluoride concentration has been adjusted to reach this level as part of a fluoridation scheme. It would be a very strange act on our part to say that only those who are geologically blessed should have access to this support to prevent oral ill-health.
I hope that the Minister will be able to accept what I regard as sensible amendments to move us toward a strategy to deal with the treatment and prevention of oral ill-health.
Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe (Con)
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My Lords, I am very grateful for the contributions to this debate from noble Lords, bringing us to a set of issues which many of us have been grappling with for a number of years.

I turn first to Amendment 224, and the access issue. The point I must stress before any other is that this Government are committed to improving access to dental services across England. With that aim, we are working closely with NHS England to increase dental capacity as rapidly as possible. Since the start of the year, the threshold for dental activity in NHS practices has again increased and is set at 85% of pre-pandemic activity, allowing more patients to be seen. Building on this, NHS England recently announced an extra £50 million to urgently provide hundreds of thousands of additional appointments.

Beyond recovery from the pandemic, we recognise the need to reform the NHS dental contract to increase access. NHS England is leading on dental system reform and working closely with key stakeholders to deliver this. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, who asked about dental morale. Much of any dip in morale has to do with what is seen as a delay in introducing the new dental contract, which has been promised for a number of years. There are all sorts of very valuable reasons for that delay, which the profession is being consulted on, but I understand that dentists are keen to see a new structure of remuneration.

That is a summary of the current backdrop. Noble Lords should be in no doubt of the Government’s continuing commitment to improving the provision of NHS dentistry across the country. What we are doing demonstrates that commitment, and for that reason we do not feel that a requirement to publish a statement on this work is necessary.

This brings me to the amendments on water fluoridation. This Government want to see more of the population benefit from fluoridation, which we know reduces oral health inequalities and the burden on NHS services. I will first address Amendments 259B and 259D, tabled by my noble friend Lord Reay, which take us in a different direction. I realise that he feels strongly about the issue, but in relation to Amendment 259B, the clear advice that I have received is that there is no evidence of harms to the environment from water fluoridation schemes. There are existing safeguards in place to protect the environment and public health.

As part of their overall responsibilities, water companies are already required to comply with relevant environmental legislation. The Town and Country Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2017 and other legislation set out the thresholds and criteria for which an environmental impact assessment is already required. The installation of water fluoridation plants in some areas may already fall within this scope. The Environment Act 2021 will, when brought into force, place a duty on the Government to have due regard to the policy statement on environmental principles in our policy-making. New and revised policies will need to take into account their impact on the environment. The Environment Agency also monitors the ecological health of our rivers at a large number of sites. If there had been or were to be a failure in the safeguards, the agency could detect this through its routine monitoring programme.

Turning to Amendment 259D, I emphasise to my noble friend that the scientific evidence around fluoridation is kept under constant review. Several authoritative scientific reviews have looked at the general health effects. The common finding of such reviews is that there is no convincing scientific evidence that fluoride in drinking water at levels used in fluoridation schemes is a cause of adverse health effects. This view is shared by the UK Chief Medical Officers, who issued a joint statement last September supporting water fluoridation as a safe and effective public health intervention to improve oral health.

I listened carefully to my noble friend, but the Government are committed to keeping the evidence under review, and it would be inappropriate to carry out evidence reviews focusing on studies from a specific time period and a specific part of the world, as he suggested. Keeping the evidence under review is what we will do but the Secretary of State is also required to monitor the effects on the health of the population living in areas with water fluoridation schemes and then publish a report no less than every four years. The next report is due in March of this year.

My noble friend suggested that the water fluoridation elements of the Bill have somehow been slipped in without adequate time for debate. In fact, the White Paper setting out proposals for the Health and Care Bill, published in February 2021, highlighted the current difficulties faced by local authorities and set out our intention to use the Health and Care Bill to give the Secretary of State the power to directly introduce, vary or terminate water fluoridation schemes. So the water fluoridation elements of the Bill have been there from the outset and open to debate.

Both my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Storey, referred to the Childsmile initiative in Scotland and asked why we cannot have a scheme in England. In fact, daily supervised toothbrushing programmes in England can already be entered into by local authorities or the NHS. There are already some schemes around the country; I visited one myself when I was dentistry Minister. Public Health England has published guidance in this area to help local authorities who are interested in schemes. Against that background, I hope that my noble friend will feel at least a little reassured, and sufficiently so to refrain from moving his amendments when they are reached.

On Amendments 260 and 262, the public voice on further fluoridation remains important and we are committed to ensuring that the population continues to have its say on any future water fluoridation schemes. We are bringing forward plans for an initial expansion of water fluoridation schemes over the next three years. We will consult the public on these plans later this year, subject to the successful passage of the Bill and funding being confirmed. The outcome of that consultation will inform regulations to be drafted later this year. These regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Underpinning any scheme expansion is the need to undertake feasibility studies and to secure funding, as well as public consultation against which we do not have certainty and cannot pre-empt the outcome. As such, we cannot at this stage set out a programme of expansion; because of that, any programme drafted in advance of the completion of these steps would be so heavily caveated and subject to change that its utility would be substantially undermined. I am of course very happy, as is my noble friend Lord Kamall, to update the House as expansion plans are developed and agreed. However, we do not believe that this needs to be specified on the face of the Bill.

Amendment 261 relates to cost-sharing for new schemes. There are no current proposals for cost-sharing. However, given the cycle of legislation and the infrequency with which these opportunities present themselves, we have taken the decision to include such measures now to provide flexibility for this in future. I can assure the House that, should we bring forward any plans to cost-share in the future, we would seek to fully engage with relevant groups at the earliest opportunity. Any plans to cost-share with public sector bodies would also be subject to regulations on which there is a requirement to consult.

I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that funding for both new and current health improvement initiatives is within the overall capital budget allocated to the department over the next three years. We will be undertaking a business planning exercise before this funding is made available from April 2022, and we will confirm this is due course.

The noble Baroness asked about the effect on water bills. There will be a cost associated with water fluoridation schemes that will need to be met either through taxation or other means. However, we know that in the end this is a cost-saving measure; the money spent to implement these schemes will save the nation money in the longer term and will benefit health. As I said, currently there are no plans to cost-share with water companies or indeed any other public sector bodies. However, given the opportunity presented by the Bill, we are enacting the relevant provisions.

20:45
Looking at the big picture, we have 57 years’ experience in England and 75 years internationally, and in that time there has been no credible evidence of health harms of fluoridation schemes. Tooth decay is a significant but largely preventable public health problem. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, rightly said, we know that water fluoridation is an effective public health intervention to reduce tooth decay and oral health inequalities, not least among children. Those inequalities in certain counties and regions are extremely serious. Therefore, as regards the provisions of the Bill, Clauses 147 and 148 are designed to enable us to move forward meaningfully in the drive to reduce oral health inequalities across this country. I commend these clauses to the Committee and hope that noble Lords will support them.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
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I raised the issue of the lack of public trust in tap water and the fact that that is a public health issue and could be magnified. Could the Minister comment on that and suggest what the Government are planning to do about it?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe (Con)
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I apologise to the noble Baroness, because she was making a significant point. I am not sure that I share her perception that those who buy bottled water in supermarkets necessarily do so as a reflection of their lack of trust in tap water; a lot of it has to do with some myths around the benefits of bottled water. However, be that as it may, I will take advice and write to the noble Baroness. I am not sufficiently sighted on the issue she raised and the evidence behind it, so it is probably appropriate if I look into it and write to her.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. On dental access, a number of noble Lords—my noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, among others—commented on the great difficulty that many people have at the moment in getting access to an NHS dentist. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, focused in particular on children, which is my particular concern. More energy needs to be put into developing a dental strategy. On thoughts of contracts, anyone who has been a dental Minister will know that the problem with contracts is that dentists always overperform, and the Treasury then claws back in future years, leading to unhappiness and misery in the profession. The fact that the pilot schemes, on which I think work is being based for a future contract, have now stopped, or are going to be stopped, is a great pity, and it does not show positive intent.

On fluoridation, I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Young, intervened. A couple of debates ago I was watching on the screen, and he chided me for what I thought was a perfectly formed piece of legislation at the time, many years ago. He talked about his experience as a Minister 42 years ago. I think it was because of his work that I, 37 years ago, as secretary of the Edgware/Hendon Community Health Council, organised public meetings in part of the Borough of Barnet on fluoridation, prior, we hoped, to the then area health authority implementing a fluoridation scheme. Although the public meetings came out strongly in favour of fluoridation, of course nothing happened. I am afraid that the experience in Barnet and Edgware and Hendon was repeated up and down the country, which is why I applaud the Government for doing what they are doing now.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke very eloquently about the evidence from deprived areas. Sandwell, next door to Birmingham, is high up in most indicators of poor health, except in dentistry. That is because, unlike Liverpool, Birmingham City Council took the decision in the 1960s to fluoridate the water supply and Sandwell got the benefit. The result is that, in general, oral health in the West Midlands is very good indeed.

I listened with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Reay. He mentioned the Jauncey judgment, which unfortunately I remember. I remind him that, although Lord Jauncey ruled that Strathclyde Regional Council was exceeding its powers in seeking to fluoridate the water system, he accepted that the amount of fluoride it wanted to put into the system would have no significant adverse effect on health, that fluoridation had been shown to be harmless and that it would be effective. When we quote Lord Jauncey, we need to quote the whole judgment, rather than just whether Strathclyde was found to have the power to put fluoride in the water.

I will not repeat what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said. In only September, the Chief Medical Officers spoke in their judgment about the effectiveness and safety of fluoride. I was very glad to hear the point the noble Earl made about expansion; I am very glad that it is on the Government’s mind. I look forward to the consultation, which I take will be a national one, if there is going to be an expansion; that is very good news indeed.

On cost sharing, I register that this Bill is full of little clauses which give Ministers powers to do something in the future, when they know what they want to do. I mention procurement regulations in Clause 70 at the same time; I think that is going a bit too far. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 224 withdrawn.
Amendment 225 not moved.
Amendment 225ZA
Moved by
225ZA: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Regard to the reports of the Office for Health and Care Sustainability
The Secretary of State, in discharging his or her responsibilities under Part 1 of this Act, must have regard to the reports of the Office for Health and Care Sustainability established under section (Office for Health and Care Sustainability).”
Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 225ZA and will also speak to Amendment 285. I thank the clerks for their help in devising Amendment 225ZA, which enables us to discuss Amendment 285, which I regard as important, today. Amendment 285 is the substantive amendment I shall address.

The amendment is important because it places in legislation recommendations from the 2017 report by this House’s Select Committee on the Long-term Sustainability of the NHS and Adult Social Care. I am delighted to see two members of that Select Committee, the noble Lords, Lord Ribeiro and Lord Scriven, here this evening. Unfortunately, the Select Committee’s chairman, my noble friend Lord Patel, who did an extremely good job, is unable to be here, but I believe he will join my noble friend Lord Kakkar to discuss a less detailed amendment, Amendment 286, which tries to achieve the same objectives as Amendment 285. For the record, the two Select Committee recommendations which are germane to this amendment are recommendations 33 and 34, found on page 98 of our report. In the interests of time, I will not spell these out, because they are effectively set out in Amendment 285, but I will draw the Committee’s attention to some of the evidence which caused us to make these recommendations.

On page 84 of the report there is a section on:

“A culture of short-termism”.


This starts at paragraph 322 with the sentence:

“Our inquiry uncovered endemic short-termism in almost every area of policy making.”


We made it clear on that occasion that the noble Lord, Lord Stevens—then plain Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England—was “the most notable exception” with his Five Year Forward View.

The committee was very concerned about the approach of what was then the Department of Health, particularly the evidence given to it by its Permanent Secretary, now Sir Chris Wormald, who remains in post today. I draw the Committee’s attention to paragraph 324 of our report, which sets out what the Select Committee made of the Permanent Secretary’s evidence:

“Although we questioned him at length on the work taking place in his department on the long-term future of the NHS, revealingly, we were not provided with any concrete examples. Moreover, he questioned whether this was work that should even be taking place in his department”.


We concluded at the end of paragraph 324:

“We were unconvinced by the answers he provided and we are left with no choice but to conclude that the Department of Health is failing to plan for the future”.


I have been in this place for 22 years. This was a pretty damning conclusion for a cross-party committee of this House to come to. The Permanent Secretary of the government department with the biggest budget after cash benefits, and which would be spent on the biggest public or private workforce in the country, was saying that it was not the department’s job to do long-term planning. This seemed to have been left to NHS England’s chief executive, who had been given no responsibility for securing the workforce he needed or settling the pay and conditions of service for that workforce—matters determined by the government department, whose boss thought it was not his job to do any long-term planning. The Select Committee was rather stunned by this view of what the job of a government department was.

Is it any surprise that your Lordships’ Select Committee made the recommendations it did? I see no evidence that much has changed for the better since the Select Committee’s report. When the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, spoke in the debate on the amendment on the workforce tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, he seemed to confirm, if one looks back at Hansard, that this was the case, with his account of endless delays before any kind of workforce future plan saw the light of day.

The workforce amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has much to commend it, as I said when we debated it. It is certainly a big improvement on the current situation and puts statutory pressure on the Secretary of State to produce regular workforce plans. My worry is that the plan that that amendment would produce may not be long term enough or closely tied to funding streams. Moreover, any planning done under the noble Baroness’s amendment would still be subject to Whitehall negotiation and Treasury and No. 10 interference if it had data or messages that were politically uncomfortable at the time of publication. I had serious doubts about the wisdom of leaving health and care workforce planning totally in the hands of elected politicians and their civil servants. I say that having been a senior civil servant and a Minister.

Two recent stories in the Times have reinforced my view. When we discussed my Amendment 72 on 24 January, I raised the matter of the front page headline in the Times of 18 January: “Javid plans NHS revolution modelled on academy schools”. I thought this was odd, given that we have not completed the legislation on this NHS reorganisation. The noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, did not totally reassure me when she said in response:

“No further plans have been agreed.”—[Official Report, 24/1/22; col. 37.]


I therefore assumed something odd was going on.

21:00
I was not surprised, therefore, to see the very large spread on page 4 of the Times last Saturday, 29 January, again with the headline:
“GPs nationalised in Javid plan to reduce hospital admissions”.
The journalist—a highly reputable one, in my experience —quotes from a letter sent from the Health Secretary to the Prime Minister this month, telling him that he had
“an ambitious agenda that has the potential to be a central plank of your domestic policy legacy.”
The Prime Minister needs all the help he can get, at the moment.
I cite this information not just because I am curious about what is going on at 39 Victoria Street and the implications for this Bill. Although this issue seems above the Minister’s pay grade, he might wish to venture some explanation. More specifically on my amendment, these Times stories rather make the case for not putting longer-term health and care workforce planning in the hands of Ministers and their civil servants. If the criterion for NHS reform is to be the Prime Minister’s policy legacy, I am unconvinced that the NHS and its staff will end up in a good place.
Amendment 285 places the job of looking ahead and planning in a body independent of government. This body must be set up within six months of the Bill becoming law. The functions of the body are to be exercised on behalf of the Crown as though it were a public department. It has three main functions: monitoring and publishing data relating to demographic trends, disease profiles and the likely pace of change affecting future service demands; assessing the workforce and skills mix required to respond to those changes and publishing regular reports on these matters; and to consider the stability of health and adult social care funding relative to changing demographic and disease trends. In other words, it tries to stop what we had in the past, moving with the NHS budget from feast to famine and back again.
This new office should look five, 10 and 15 years ahead, and publish regular reports laid before both Houses of Parliament. It must produce an initial baseline report within a year of its establishment. It would have an executive chair and five members. The chair and two members would be appointed by the Health Secretary, but only with the consent of the Public Accounts and Health Select Committees of the House of Commons. The remaining two members would be chosen by the office itself. The initial term of office would be five years, and no one could serve more than two terms.
The workings of this new body are largely copied from the legislation setting up the Office for Budget Responsibility in 2011. That innovation seems to have worked well and was the model that this House’s Select Committee had in mind. However, I am not a proud author and I am open to alternative drafting, providing it does not weaken the independence of the body.
Even Jeremy Hunt, who, as far as I can see, ignored this recommendation when he was Secretary of State, seems to have changed his mind. In an interview to the Times last October, he regarded this kind of approach as likely to keep Governments honest.
I hope this House gives serious consideration to this amendment. The stories in the Times about considering further NHS reforms are disturbing and have serious implications for this Bill on Report. They should give the House pause for thought in giving the Secretary of State the powers of direction being sought. If another NHS reform is being cooked up in Victoria Street, it raises the question of why Parliament is labouring so long on this Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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I shall say a few words in support of the noble Lord, Lord Warner; I put my name to his original Amendment 285 and, obviously, I very much endorse what he said. Reading the Select Committee report again, I find it as fresh as ever and its analysis of the issues faced in the NHS are exactly the pressures we see at the moment. Let us be clear: it was a hard analysis. We are all proud of the NHS, but the report rightly pointed out that it performs poorly in comparison with many countries on many indicators. In acute care, we have worse outcomes for survival for stroke and heart attacks, we lag behind comparable European countries for cancer survival, and we have fewer beds, fewer doctors and fewer nurses per head than OECD averages. As capacity is so tight, it is no wonder, given the current pressures post pandemic, that the NHS is struggling to meet the challenges it faces. We have talked about dental access, but we could talk about the horrendous waiting times for treatment or the dreadful ambulance waiting times which are frightening for people with very serious illnesses.

The Government’s approach is one initiative at a time on the whim of the Secretary of State at the time. We have already got the Messenger review which is bringing in a general to tell the NHS how to manage its services. How many times have we introduced people before? I think Secretary of State Hunt established the report by the noble Lord, Lord Rose. He clearly wanted Rose to say that NHS managers were useless. Of course, the noble Lord did not say that. He said that Ministers are useless at creating circumstances in which managers can thrive. Messenger will come out with the same response and his report will also be rejected because what these reports all say is that the way Ministers lead from the centre is non-conducive to the sensible management of the NHS at local level. Bringing some long-term planning to the NHS with the proposals that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, suggests seems to be eminently sensible. I hope this is one of the issues that we will take to Report because it is fundamental to the future.

I was a bit nonplussed because I was rising to support my noble friend Lady Thornton on her Amendment 281, but she is yet to speak to it. It is always good to see the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, in his place. When we debated the future of Public Health England in the 2011 Bill that led to the 2012 Act, we warned that placing PHE firmly within the department would lead to a complete misunderstanding among all of us about who was responsible for its performance. Lo and behold, we had the Covid crisis and that is what happened. Noble Lords will remember that at the beginning Ministers were briefing that PHE was hopeless and that they had lost confidence in it, and that led to the rushed announcement by the previous Secretary of State about the setting up of the UK Health Security Agency. No one knew, because Ministers kept quiet, that they were accountable for PHE and that PHE staff are officials. They are civil servants directly responsible to Ministers for their performance. The Joint Committee inquiry into Covid identified this. Yes, there were issues with Public Health England’s performance, but Ministers should take responsibility.

We risk repeating the problem with the UK security agency, because, again, it is being set up as an agency part of the department, under the control of Ministers. Once again, when trouble arises, we will see the same pattern of Ministers trying to escape their responsibilities for what is performed by this particular agency. The reason I support my noble friend is that I think she is absolutely right in seeking to place this agency on a more independent basis, so that it can be seen to account for what it does and we can avoid the ambiguity being built into the current situation.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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My Lords, I also want to rise to support Amendment 285 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I was very happy to put my name to that. As the noble Lord said, I was also a member of your Lordships’ Committee on the Long-term Sustainability of the NHS and Adult Social Care.

Noble Lords who have been following this set of Committee days will realise that this amendment goes to the heart of a lot of what we have been talking about, which is the conflict between short-termism and long-term planning. The Bill is about the integration of health and social care, improving health outcomes and reducing health inequalities. They are not short-term fixes; it is a long-term journey, which will mean long-term plans.

As an independent body, this body does not stop Ministers being able to control health policy. It sets out a framework of what is required in terms of staffing; what the issues will be in terms of disease profile; what will happen in terms of demand; and for seeing how successful the Government have been, not just in being able to give a press release about certain amounts of money going to a certain area but in whether the long-term benefits of that money are achieving better health outcomes, reducing health inequalities and getting the right staffing to the right places to get a better health and social care system for the people of England. That is what this body is about. I think that, of all the amendments we have discussed—I probably would say this, because my name is to it—this is one of the most important, because it deals with the conflict between the priorities of short-termism and long-term planning.

I also want to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, did, that I was astounded, as a former health service manager, that no one in the Department for Health planned for long-term care in the healthcare system. We expected the answer that at least there was somebody in a darkened room doing it. But there was absolutely nobody doing it; it was all about the whim of the Minister. In reality, that was what came out.

I think this amendment actually helps with the central purpose of this Bill, of integrating healthcare, reducing health inequalities and improving health outcomes, because it is long-term. I think it is absolutely right that this House and the public understand how the Government are doing against independent reviews at five, 10 and 15 years. We will be able to see whether the right staff, the right money and the right focus on prevention versus dealing with the acute sector are actually happening, and whether Governments, of one or two or three colours, over a period of time, are improving the healthcare system the population and leading to better health outcomes.

I also support Amendment 281, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has talked about. For me, public health has been kicked for too many years between different parts of the care and health system. In particular, when you have an executive agency whose primary responsibility is to plan and then co-ordinate public health—not just at government level, but within local government and across government—if it is not independent and is not a statutory body, yet again it just plays to the whim of Ministers. I will give an example of why it is not working in its present form, based on something that has just happened in the last few weeks.

21:15
On the issue of face coverings in schools, the agency decided that it was going to happen without any consultation whatever with the Department for Education or local government and education premises. That is because it is not independent. It cannot make independent decisions; it was responding with a knee-jerk reaction based on what Ministers thought was correct. That is why it is important that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, would put this body on an independent footing. So I support Amendment 281, as well as the well-thought-out and central Amendment 285 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, to meet the absolute crux of what this whole Bill is about.
Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, I too support the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I well remember reading the report of the House of Lords Select Committee on the sustainability of our health and care services in 2017 and being rather jealous that I had not been on the committee, because it struck me as a very interesting one and it produced a very thoughtful and hard-hitting report. The office for health and care sustainability was probably the most crucial of its recommendations. Indeed, I think it would help the Government in making their decisions, because the body itself would not make the decisions but be independent, report directly to Parliament—which I thought was crucial—and look forward as far as it needed to look in a rolling programme of forecasting, assisting Ministers to make the right decisions.

Given the ageing population, resulting from improved healthcare, it had become very clear that funding was not keeping up, and indeed might never keep up unless things were done differently. That is why the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, also recommended the sort of integration that is at the heart of this Bill. It also reported on the lack of alignment between the funding of health and social care, which has resulted in the current gap in pay, particularly in the care sector, and the consequent staff shortage.

This was an excellent recommendation and, unlike other recommendations in the report, it has not been taken up—yet. The key thing about the body is that it would be authoritative, independent and unable itself to meddle in delivery. I would have thought that any Government would welcome the existence of such a body to do a lot of the work to establish what needs to be done and when. Unlike politicians of any political colour, it would be trusted by the public and would be staffed by experts able to gather and analyse the data. All Governments have their own focus—all Secretaries of State for Health have their own focus—and their own political priorities, which often depend on whatever the latest scandal has been, resulting in pressure from the public. Public health is too important for this, so I therefore support this amendment.

Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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My Lords, we have had an important debate here, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, both for bringing these amendments before the House and for explaining their background and the important role of the Select Committee. We have debated it several times in your Lordships’ House and everybody in the House, apart from the Government Front Bench, it seems, thinks it is a brilliant report that should be acted on. This seems to be an opportunity for the Government to take on board some of its major recommendations, and this is one of them. We would support that, and we hope that the Minister might have some good news for us on that.

I also wish to speak briefly to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Merron. The argument has already been made by other noble Lords—I am having a slight sense of déjà vu because I am sure I made a speech along the same lines in 2011—about the importance of Public Health England having a statutory basis to its work to give it transparency and accountability. The last two years must show us that that is the right thing to do. That is why I agree with my noble friend’s amendment to put the new UK Health Security Agency on to a statutory footing. As far as I can tell, in the past 20-odd years since I came to your Lordships’ House, every time that various Governments have mucked about with public health, they have got it wrong. Let us use this opportunity to get it right.

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen Portrait Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
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My Lords, I thank noble Lords for bringing forward and explaining these amendments tonight. The specific functions that noble Lords describe in Amendments 225ZA and 285 are crucial functions that the Government are committed to ensuring are discharged in full. There are, however, several bodies in place that already fulfil these proposed functions.

The first proposed function would be a monitoring role and a duty to publish data. This important function is undertaken by the Department of Health and Social Care, which already monitors and publishes some of the data described in the proposed amendment; specifically, that relating to disease profiles, but also incorporating demographic trends, where relevant. The department also commissions independent academic modelling from the Care Policy and Evaluation Centre, or CPEC, to produce projections of the long-term demand on adult social care services. The CPEC model is updated regularly to reflect the latest available academic research and evidence, as well as important updates to key inputs such as ONS principal population projections, along with life expectancy and mortality rates, disability rates, household composition, availability of informal care and unit costs of care.

The second proposed function involves assessing the workforce and skills mix. We agree that workforce planning is a vital component behind any investment. We agree, therefore, that the assessment referred to in this function is extremely valuable. It is undertaken at present by the Department of Health and Social Care, working collaboratively with both Health Education England, or HEE, and NHS England. They work together to look at key drivers of workforce demand and supply over the long term, and will set out how these may impact on the required shape of the future workforce in its broadest sense to help identify the main strategic choices facing us, develop a shared and explicit set of planning assumptions, and identify the actions required.

There are two reasons why I have concerns with trying to involve another body in workforce planning, as this amendment suggests. First, I fear the new body proposed by noble Lords would be distant from planning decisions within the NHS and the needs of service delivery. The strength of the intention to merge Health Education England and NHS England is to tackle this very issue. Secondly, it would overlap and duplicate HEE’s existing statutory responsibilities for workforce planning and investment. To support this work, the department commissioned HEE in July 2021 to refresh its long-term strategic framework, Framework 15.

Moving on, the third proposed function focuses on the stability of health and adult social care funding. This Government are committed to funding stability and sufficiency, underlined by our decision to enshrine in law our five-year long-term plan funding settlement. Healthcare budgets are agreed at spending reviews, with the Office for Budget Responsibility scrutinising those budgets. Further independent financial assessment is therefore not necessary.

It is clear that, for each of the proposed functions, there are already well-established bodies and processes to safeguard the long-term sustainability of an integrated health and adult social care system for England, underpinned by reporting to Parliament. We do not think that the creation of a further body would add value.

I fully agree with the sentiment behind Amendment 281. The UK Health Security Agency, or UKHSA, must be fully accountable for its activities, and there should be full transparency as to how it operates. I can give reassurance, however, that the establishment of the UKHSA as an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care is the most appropriate model.

I assure your Lordships that we fully explored other organisational models. However, the executive agency model best facilitates a balance across the needs for strong operational delivery capability, scientific integrity, and the ministerial oversight and accountability necessary to command public confidence. The executive agency model allows for the delivery of executive functions of the department to be carried out separately from, but within a policy and resources framework set by, the department. As the noble Baroness will recognise, this level of flexibility is critical to ensuring a quick and effective response to Covid-type threats without needing to rely on legislation to confer functions, which this amendment would require. Any other approach would reduce the ability of the UKHSA to respond flexibly and rapidly.

In line with requirements for all executive agencies, multiple arrangements are in place to ensure accountability, transparency and effective governance for UKHSA. These include the framework document, which is soon to be published; the annual remit letter, published on 13 July; the business and strategic plans to be published each financial year; and quarterly accountability meetings. Also, UKHSA is required to publish information on contracts and expenditure under normal government transparency rules. As an executive agency, UKHSA must publish annual reports along with audited accounts after the end of each financial year.

It is for these reasons that I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, that is pretty much what I expected from the Government Front Bench, so no surprises there.

I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in support of Amendment 285. I also support Amendment 281, though I did not mention that in my opening remarks. I want the Government to reflect on the fact that, when the person who had been Secretary of State—for what was then health only—for five or six years was released from office, and what I might call the adrenaline of office had calmed down a bit, he was able to give a pretty lengthy interview in the Times in which he effectively said, “I should have accepted that recommendation”. He explained that it was an amendment which would keep Governments honest—those were his words, not mine. This was someone who had been through the mill, had seen it all, had had to deal with these issues and had had a damascene conversion when he had left office. It is a bit like when Permanent Secretaries suddenly become supporters of freedom of information legislation after they have collected their pension.

We cannot ignore the fact that a person who actually did the job saw benefit in having this kind of body. If the Government are resting their case for long-term planning on Health Education England, I am more than ever reinforced by this amendment, having listened to my noble friend Lord Stevens of Birmingham telling us what went on in the workforce planning that he had experience of. It is a pretty unusual situation to be running a big organisation in which two-thirds of the budget is spent on staffing and workforce issues, where the guy or gal in charge of it is not actually responsible for the long-term planning of the workforce. That is an extraordinary system that Stuart Rose—the noble Lord, Lord Rose of Monewden—and others have found very difficult to understand.

21:30
So I shall come back to this on Report with an amendment that looks remarkably like this—but, in the meantime, I withdraw Amendment 225ZA.
Amendment 225ZA withdrawn.
Clause 4: NHS England mandate: cancer outcome targets
Amendment 225A
Moved by
225A: Clause 4, page 2, line 35, leave out from “objectives” to “, and” in line 38 and insert “specified by the Secretary of State under subsection (2)(a) for NHS England must include objectives relating to outcomes for cancer patients”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment changes the focus of the cancer outcomes objectives so that they cover matters other than treatment (e.g. early diagnosis).
Lord Kamall Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)
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My Lords, I will also be moving Amendments 225B and 225C in due course. Clause 4 sets a requirement for the Secretary of State to include objectives relating to cancer outcomes in the mandate to NHS England, and for these objectives to have priority over other objectives relating specifically to cancer.

I first thank John Baron MP in the other place, who introduced this clause, and noble Lords for their support in ensuring that the Bill best delivers on our shared intention of improving outcomes for cancer patients. I also thank the cancer charities that have contacted me to express their views, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, for her engagement. The Government have worked with Mr Baron, NHS England and stakeholders to ensure that we deliver the greatest benefits for cancer patients while minimising the risk of unintended consequences. Amendments 225A, 225B and 225C, tabled in my name, have the full support of Mr Baron, and I strongly encourage your Lordships to support them.

In recognition of the range of services offered to cancer patients, Amendment 225A will ensure that the scope of possible outcomes-driven objectives is broad enough to capture all cancer interventions, such as screening programmes or targeted lung health checks, not just those relating specifically to treatment. Connected to this, Amendment 225C will ensure that these objectives have priority over any other objectives relating to cancer, not just those relating to cancer treatment.

Amendment 225B, meanwhile, makes it clear that the objectives over which the cancer outcomes objectives have priority are those which relate specifically to cancer. When it comes to setting priorities for NHS England, including on cancer, it is vital to consider the outcomes that they should be directing the NHS to achieve. Improving outcomes means boosting survival rates—that remains our overriding aim. But the outcomes that matter to cancer patients are not limited to survival. They also include improving the quality of life for those living with cancer and the patient experience of those being treated.

We want to make sure the objectives we set benefit the outcomes of all cancer patients, whether the objectives relate to screening, early diagnosis or treatment. This is crucial as screening and early diagnosis interventions are one of the most effective ways of improving outcomes and chances of survival. I hope your Lordships can support these amendments.

Lord Moylan Portrait Lord Moylan (Con)
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My Lords, I greatly welcome the amendments proposed by my noble friend. In fact, I put my name to the equivalent amendments earlier, proposed by my noble friend Lady Morgan of Cotes. I rise to speak to my Amendment 294, the purpose of which is to draw attention to the dire state of the services and treatment offered to people suffering from cancer of the pancreas—although I could also say that there are other, equally forgotten and equally deadly cancers, such as bile duct cancer, that deserve a debate as well. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Vaizey of Didcot and to the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Aberdare, for their support of the amendment.

Many of us have seen family members and friends fall prey to this disease. Pancreatic cancer is the deadliest common cancer. It affects 10,000 people a year across the UK, and more than half will die within three months. Three in four will die within a year. Vague symptoms, lack of a simple early test, and low symptom awareness among both the public and primary care professionals result in three in five people with pancreatic cancer being diagnosed at a late stage, when curative treatment and life-saving surgery are no longer possible.

Research into pancreatic cancer has been underfunded for decades: it receives only 3% of the UK cancer research budget, despite being the deadliest common cancer. The result is that pancreatic cancer has the lowest survival rate of all common cancers, with five-year survival rates less than 7%. Five-year survival in the UK lags behind the rest of the world, with the UK ranking 29th out of 33 countries with comparable data. These survival statistics have barely improved in decades.

In addition, there is an unacceptable variability of services for pancreatic cancer sufferers, depending in part on geography, with those living near the few specialist centres able to access some services barely available elsewhere.

I wrote last year to my noble friend Lord Bethell with a particular suggestion being promoted by the small but excellent charity Pancreatic Cancer UK. In due course, on 1 December, I received a reply from my honourable friend Maria Caulfield, who said that NHS England and NHS Improvement had launched an audit of pancreatic cancer services with a view to reducing variations in treatment and improving outcomes. That is wholly welcome. The information we have nationally on pancreatic cancer treatment in the NHS is woefully poor. An audit is a good place to start. But she went on to say that the first data were expected in 2023—not the report, not the action plan that we need, and not the funding allocation, merely the first data.

My amendment seeks to impose certain reporting obligations on the Secretary of State, but its real purpose, and the real purpose of this debate, is to inject some urgency into the Government and the NHS. We cannot afford to wait years just to begin to understand the state of pancreatic cancer treatment and care, let alone to take action to improve outcomes. Pursuing the audit with urgency and dispatch should be a top government priority.

There is one thing the Government could do right away that would at least alleviate the suffering of pancreatic cancer patients—and this indeed is the subject I wrote to my noble friend Lord Bethell about at the urging of Pancreatic Cancer UK. The symptoms caused by pancreatic cancer have a very distressing impact. In particular, people are often unable to digest their food, ultimately starving the body of nutrients and calories, leading to rapid weight loss, malnutrition and loss of muscle mass.

The solution to these symptoms is pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy—PERT. PERT comes in tablet form; you take it with your food. It replaces the digestive enzymes that many people with pancreatic cancer can no longer produce. Taking the tablet helps food to be digested and absorbed by the body, and can vastly improve people’s quality of life. It can also, crucially, help them to gain the strength needed to undergo treatment. If people have lost weight and are too weak, they are sometimes not able to have surgery for that reason. NICE guidelines clearly recommend PERT for people with pancreatic cancer, whether the cancer is operable or inoperable, and there is widespread clinical consensus on its effectiveness. It is widely available and is cost-effective: it costs the NHS just £7 per day per patient.

However, a recent study has shown that only half the people with pancreatic cancer across the UK are prescribed PERT. The May 2021 RICOCHET study, undertaken by the West Midlands Research Collaborative, found that 50% of pancreatic cancer patients were not being prescribed the tablet they needed to digest food. The key reason people are not being prescribed PERT currently is a lack of dissemination of specialist knowledge about pancreatic cancer and the benefits of PERT to general healthcare settings. PERT is more likely to be prescribed in specialist surgical centres than in general hospitals, meaning that people whose cancer is operable are more likely to be prescribed PERT than those whose cancer is inoperable, because people whose cancer is operable are more likely to be moved to a specialist setting.

However, three in five people with pancreatic cancer are not diagnosed until their cancer is at an advanced stage and no longer operable, so they will tend to be treated with palliative care in a non-specialist setting. This means they will be far less likely to be prescribed PERT than if they had been diagnosed early.

What I would hope to hear my noble friend the Minister say this evening is that without waiting for the results of the audit, he will immediately set a national priority that PERT should be routinely prescribed as a feature of pancreatic cancer care. Without setting this focus and without corresponding leadership from national and local health bodies, knowledge and expertise will continue to spread far too slowly for the people with the quickest-killing cancer.

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin Portrait Baroness Morgan of Drefelin (CB)
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My Lords, I am delighted to rise in support of the Minister’s amendments to Clause 4, and I would like to declare my interest as chief executive of Breast Cancer Now. I am also absolutely delighted to pay tribute to the honourable member John Baron, from the other place, for his incredible leadership as chair of the All-Party Group on Cancer, his tireless campaigning for the interests of cancer patients and his relentless demands around prioritising improvement in cancer outcomes—hence the origin of this new clause.

For me and for those listening to this debate, it is extremely important that the Minister has been able to clarify that the wide range of outcomes covered by this new clause will include, for example, early diagnosis, objectives around end-of-life care, the importance of measuring quality of life as an outcome, and timeliness of care, as well as survival, because we know that all those factors lead to improved quality of life but also improved survival. We do not have the time to wait five or 10 years to see whether improvements in survival are occurring—we need to see them today, next month. We need to see, for example, that PERT is getting through to all patients with pancreatic cancer, rather than waiting for the longer-term survival results.

I am very pleased that these amendments have been tabled and that the Minister has confirmed that a wide range of metrics will be used to ensure a tight grip on keeping track of the system’s performance, identifying emerging problems and backlogs as they arise, because we do not have the time to wait to find out if the system is off-track. I am very pleased that we have some clarity around what is included in these objectives. I will read the Minister’s remarks properly—when it is not quarter to 10 at night—and reflect. I am very grateful for them.

Also, what a tremendous amendment we have on pancreatic cancer, which is, as we have heard, such a pernicious disease. The audit will be very powerful when it really gets to work on what is going on locally to unearth thoughtful ideas about how the system can be improved. So much good work goes on in these audits, not just on pancreatic cancer but other diseases too. Making sure that those improvements are put into practice as quickly as possible has got to be a really good thing that this House will care about very much.

21:45
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
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My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for introducing these amendments as he did and for giving us the assurance that John Baron, who had worked so hard on all of these issues around cancer care and cancer outcomes, has been fully consulted and is fully supportive of them. I was heartened to hear his stress on early diagnosis. All too often at the moment, patients are diagnosed in emergency departments when presenting late because their condition, for whatever reason, has been missed. We certainly need more early diagnostic tests to be available.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for speaking about a cancer which, in my experience in palliative medicine, is often within our domain. Indeed, I hope that the Minister might be able to find a way of supporting my colleague Professor Katherine Sleeman at King’s, who wants to establish a What Works centre, for a remarkably small amount of money, in order to roll out best practice in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, recommended. I do not expect the Minister to answer that now—perhaps we can discuss it later—but there certainly is a need to roll out best practice widely, not only from the cancer centres but out into the cancer units and beyond those to the general NHS.

Up until now we have had too much of an emphasis on process. This switch in emphasis to outcomes is most welcome; I expect everyone to strongly support these amendments.

Lord Aberdare Portrait Lord Aberdare (CB)
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My Lords, I too am pleased to speak in support of the amendment addressing pancreatic cancer tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, to which I have added my name. I am grateful to the noble Lord for sharing a draft of his speech with me so that I have no need to test your Lordships’ patience by repeating facts and arguments that he and, indeed, the noble Baronesses, Lady Morgan and Lady Finlay, have already stated so tellingly.

I shall just emphasise a couple of points. I imagine that most, if not all, of your Lordships either know or know of someone who has died of this horrific cancer. Few survive more than a few months, unless they are lucky enough to be among the small number—I think it is about two in five people—whose cancer is diagnosed early enough to be operable. I find it quite shocking that the UK still lags so far behind other countries; as we heard, it is 29th out of 33 countries for its five-year pancreatic cancer survival rates. Research spending on pancreatic cancer is scarcely a quarter of that on leukaemia, for example, and supports correspondingly few researchers and projects. Hopefully, the noble Baroness’s friend may get some more of that.

There is a sort of vicious circle: because pancreatic cancer is so deadly, few patients are fit enough for long enough to take part in clinical trials, and few researchers are attracted to specialise in a condition that is widely regarded as a death sentence. The noble Lord’s amendment would build on the welcome audit of pancreatic cancer that he mentioned, seeking to ensure that its findings are regularly published, that they contribute to better information about pancreatic cancer and lead to specific action to address the issues identified—hopefully, the action may happen first and the audit later—while at the same time seeking to increase provision of PERT through national guidance and regular reporting.

Like the noble Lord, I wanted to mention that there are similar issues with other rare and aggressive cancers in this part of the body, such as bile duct cancer, and these too are often diagnosed too late for successful treatment. Even when surgery is available, the prognosis may be poor. Ideally, there should surely be an integrated approach to expedite diagnosis and treatment for all these cancers, and better information to help GPs and other healthcare workers to recognise their symptoms.

I very much hope that the Minister can give some reassurance on how the system being created by this Bill, including the revised NHS mandate on cancer outcome targets, will help to address the challenges of pancreatic and related cancers with some urgency, so that we can at last start to narrow the gap with other countries in treating them. I also very much support the government amendments that broaden the range of factors covered by cancer outcome objectives.

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Portrait Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)
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My Lords, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Moylan, which I was very proud to sign. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said about knowing people who have died of this terrible disease. By coincidence, having signed the amendment, I had lunch with a friend whose brother suffers from pancreatic cancer. Luckily, however, he had it diagnosed extremely early because he had a blood test that identified the biomarkers that told him that he could have pancreatic cancer. He is now being treated and has a good chance of survival. Then, by coincidence, I visited my GP to have a blood test to test for prostate cancer. Luckily for me, the results were good.

I have a mild obsession about why we are not better in this country at implementing diagnostic procedures. When I went to see my GP to talk about prostate cancer, I asked her what kind of tests were available to me, as an NHS patient, for pancreatic or other types of cancer. As a layman reading the newspapers, almost every day there is news emerging of new blood tests that could identify cancer early. It is one of my trite dinner-party lines—I hesitate to say this, because there are so many experts in the Chamber this evening—that, in effect, one can almost argue that one has cured cancer if one is able to diagnose it early enough. That is why I welcome this emphasis on looking at outcomes rather than process in how we treat cancer. I hope that over time, it will shift the emphasis away from the treatment of cancer to how soon we can diagnose it.

I therefore support the amendment and ask the Minister a simple question: when will the test for pancreatic cancer be potentially universally available to NHS patients? I found it odd, talking to my friend over lunch, that his advice to me was to get myself on a trial as soon as possible to see whether I could get a test to get a diagnosis. It seems to me that we are lagging behind in the opportunity to diagnose cancer as early as possible and treat it as effectively as possible which, of course, will enable us to save a great deal of money.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on cancer and a great supporter of John Baron’s campaign on outcomes. Of course, as noble Lords across the Committee have said, the key to getting better outcomes is early diagnosis, rigorous audit, and proper dissemination across the country of what we know works. I certainly support what the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is trying to do.

I do not oppose the government amendments outlined by the Minister, despite the rather unusual fact that they were only agreed with the Opposition Front Benches at the last minute—that is, this morning. I thank him for clarifying that; although cancer outcomes were the principal focus of Clause 4, they are not the only objective that should relate to cancer patients. The department has consulted with cancer charities, which, of course, represent many thousands of patients, to ensure that the new legislation meets their needs. Can the Minister say when the effects of Clause 4 will be reviewed and any action, if necessary, taken? Although generally approved by the sector, Macmillan is still concerned about how a focus on survival will affect those who, sadly, have terminal cancer and do not expect to survive. What they need is palliative care and measures to make the quality of their last few months of life as good as possible. Could this issue be a key part of any future evaluation of cancer care?

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
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My Lords, we are very pleased to support the government amendments that we have heard outlined. Crucially, they focus on cancer outcomes. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, underlined, that includes survival, quality of life, experience of treatment, end-of-life care as well as diagnosis—in other words, the whole experience in treating somebody as a whole person on a journey that they may have to face. I congratulate the Minister on bringing the amendments forward. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, supported by the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare and Lord Vaizey, and others, for highlighting the fact that pancreatic cancer has such an aggressive nature, and yet the symptoms are so silent and often misunderstood that it presents a particular challenge in the context of the care that we are speaking of today.

A focus on outcomes that covers matters other than treatment will be particularly crucial following the backlogs that the pandemic has inevitably led to, with delays in people seeking check-ups and treatment. Macmillan has let us know that more than 31,000 people in England are still waiting for their first cancer treatment, and it has also said of the Bill that for those living with cancer

“not a lot will look different.”

It is therefore crucial that the Minister assures noble Lords that stakeholders are supportive of the changes outlined in this group.

On the point about survival rates lagging behind those of other countries, that is not because the National Health Service is worse than other healthcare systems at treating cancer once it is detected but because it may not be as good at catching cancers in the crucial early stages. In other words, late diagnosis lies behind our comparatively poor survival rates. A key advantage of focusing on outcome measures is that it will give healthcare professionals much greater freedom and flexibility to design their own solutions, which could include running wider screening programmes and better awareness campaigns, and establishing greater diagnostic capabilities at primary care. A further advantage of this new focus is that it will better align NHS priorities with patient needs, which, after all, are core to our discussions on the Bill today.

I have a final and gentle word for the Minister to back up the introductory comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. It is of course usual to consult the Opposition and others in advance to ensure that amendments are acceptable and do what is required—in other words, to strengthen the case. I know that this did not happen until very late in this case, and I am sure the Minister will not wish to repeat that practice. In summary, however, we very much welcome these amendments.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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I thank the Opposition Front Benches for being so gracious given the fact that we notified them late and did not use the correct procedure. I apologise for that once again and I know that the Bill team also apologises for it. We are all on a steep learning curve, as I am sure all noble Lords acknowledge. I thank both noble Baronesses. I hope the lesson has been learned, and we will not have an excuse next time.

I will address Amendment 294 before I come to our amendments. I thank my noble friend Lord Moylan for tabling it. To reassure him, the pancreatic cancer audit is included in the national cancer audit collaborating centre tender, which is currently live. Some reporting timelines are included in the specification for this audit, developed in partnership with NHS England and NHS Improvement, but I am told that during a live tender the document is commercially sensitive and cannot be shared beyond the commissioning team, as this could risk jeopardising the procurement process. The future contract is anticipated to start in autumn of this year. However, it is not possible to confirm the timelines for a new national audit topic for pancreatic cancer until the procurement completes and the contractual deliverables are signed. Unfortunately, therefore, this cannot be aligned with the passing of the Act.

My noble friend will be aware that NICE clinical guideline NG85 recommends that pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy, or PERT, should be offered to patients with inoperable pancreatic cancer and that consideration should be given to offering PERT before and after tumour removal. NICE acknowledges that this is a priority area for improving the quality of health and social care and has included PERT in its quality standard on pancreatic cancer.

We have taken and will continue to take steps to support Pancreatic Cancer UK’s campaign to encourage greater uptake of PERT by doctors treating pancreatic cancer patients, in line with NICE guidance. We are in the process of commissioning a PC audit and, while the scope of this is not confirmed, we will certainly include this in the scoping of the topic. As I said, NICE acknowledges this as a priority area and, while its guidelines are not mandatory for healthcare professionals, the NHS is expected to take them fully into account in ensuring that services meet the needs of patients.

22:00
Turning to the government amendments, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, who very helpfully stepped in when there were some potential misunderstandings around the amendment we laid. I thank her for her assistance on this matter and for explaining it.
We all want to see improved cancer outcomes and I am pleased that the NHS is committed to this. This is reflected in the current NHS Long Term Plan ambition to improve both early diagnosis and survival. One of the examples my noble friend Lord Vaizey gave was prostate cancer. When I was in the European Parliament and started to use the Belgian health service, I was advised to go and see a urologist. I said, “Why do I need to see a urologist?” and they said that, in Belgium, men over 45 are recommended to have an annual check-up in case of prostate cancer. It is very different in this country. That shows the importance of early diagnosis and how we can promote it. Raising awareness is also important. I saw reports the other day about potential annual screening for prostate cancer and no longer relying on just the PSA test.
With these amendments, the Secretary of State would continue to set objectives relating to outcomes for cancer patients in future mandates, to reflect the priorities that the elected Government of the day have for NHS England, but working in partnership with the cancer charities and cancer experts.
Lord Moylan Portrait Lord Moylan (Con)
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My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, on behalf of people who are currently suffering from pancreatic cancer or who might be diagnosed with it in the next few months, is anything going to happen faster in relation to dissemination of knowledge and prescription of PERT as a result of this debate than would have been the case had we not raised this with him?

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am afraid that I am not entirely sure of the answer to that, but I hope that we have raised awareness. I am very happy to have a conversation with my noble friend to see what more can be done, if anything.

Amendment 225A agreed.
Amendments 225B and 225C
Moved by
225B: Clause 4, page 2, line 39, after “relating” insert “specifically”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes it clear that the objectives over which the cancer outcomes objectives have priority are those which relate specifically to cancer.
225C: Clause 4, page 2, leave out line 40
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment means that cancer outcomes objectives will have priority over any other objectives relating to cancer (not just those relating to cancer treatment).
Amendments 225B and 225C agreed.
Clause 4 agreed.
Amendment 226 not moved.
Clause 135 agreed.
Clause 136: International healthcare arrangements
Amendment 232
Moved by
232: Clause 136, page 112, line 10, leave out “an Act of” and insert “a Bill in”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes a drafting change to reflect the fact that consent of the Secretary of State under section 8 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is given in relation to an Assembly Bill rather than an Assembly Act.
Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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My Lords, I will speak to two minor technical amendments, Amendments 232 and 312. These amendments, which are made to Clause 111, in relation to HSSIB, and Clause 136, in relation to international healthcare agreements, do not impact the policy of either clause. They simply amend the drafting so that references are made to an Assembly Bill rather than an Assembly Act in relation to Northern Ireland. I beg to move the first of these minor technical amendments, Amendment 232.

Earl of Kinnoull Portrait The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)
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My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is participating remotely and I think now would be a convenient moment for her to speak.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
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My Lords, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and other noble Lords, I was involved in the passage of the Bill that started off life as the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, and which, by the time it was passed, had been renamed the Healthcare (European Economic Area and Switzerland Arrangements) Bill—a name almost as long as the Bill itself, and after some of the worst Henry VIII powers had been removed, including the power of Ministers to sign international trade agreements that could include preferential access to NHS contracts without the formal scrutiny and decision-making powers in Parliament.

The frustration with the remote arrangements is that I am speaking before my noble friend Lord Sharkey. I know that he will speak about the delegated powers in Clause 136. I wish I could hear his contribution before I speak, but I want to say that it seems the Government have forgotten, in nearly three years, the roasting that they got from your Lordships’ House during the passage of the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton, said:

“The sweeping nature of the powers proposed in the Bill are in many ways offensive to the proper conduct of legislation. I accept that they are needed in the current situation in relation to the EU and Switzerland, but to go wider than that is wrong, I think. We have to insist on legislation being properly prepared, properly debated, properly scrutinised and properly consulted on.”—[Official Report, 12/3/19; col. 926.]


The then Health Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Blackwood, when conceding on those Henry VIII powers later that day on Report, said:

“I want to be clear that the consequential Henry VIII powers were initially included as a future-proofing mechanism. They were never free-standing and we had envisaged using them in only a limited set of circumstances … we want to alleviate any fears that we are taking powers which are not absolutely necessary in this Bill. As such we are prepared to take the significant step of removing the entire Henry VIII consequential powers in Clauses 5(3) and (4).”—[Official Report, 12/3/19; col. 963.]


One of the reasons that your Lordships’ House is so concerned is that it looks as if the provisions in that Bill are being resurrected in Clause 136 of this Bill. I will give two brief examples: “2 Healthcare agreements and payments” on page 110 of the Bill, among other clauses, gives the Secretary of State the powers to make a healthcare agreement with another country and for Parliament to only comment on it by the negative resolution. For those of us who worked on a previous Bill, that sounds horribly familiar. It also gives the Secretary of State the power to give directions to a person about the exercise of any function, which is familiar not only from that Bill but from other parts of this one.

In “2B, regulations under Section 2A: consent requirements” on page 112, it says at (5) that the consent of the Secretary of State is required for a

“healthcare agreement”

which means

“an agreement or other commitment between the UK and either a country or territory outside the UK or an international organisation, concerning health provided anywhere in the world”.

Any type of “agreement” or “commitment” brings us full circle back to the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill as first drafted. This would include international treaties, as was planned back in 2019, to include that access to providing major parts of healthcare in the NHS, but without the consent or knowledge of Parliament, because the detail of the agreement would not need be seen before it was signed, including by the NHS, its stakeholders and the staff who work in the sector.

Lest we think that this is just words, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care have both talked extensively in America to healthcare providers in recent months. What is different about this clause is the breadth of definition of a healthcare agreement, the powers that are held only by the Secretary of State, and the total lack or paucity of consultation or scrutiny by Parliament and other stakeholders before the Bill came to your Lordships’ House.

Why has Clause 136 reinstated some of the key elements of the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill that were removed because Ministers recognised that the scope was too wide, the Henry VIII powers were egregious, and Parliament, the NHS and other stakeholders were being totally disregarded?

Should my noble friend Lord Sharkey wish to propose on Report that the clause do not stand part, I will support him.

Lord Sharkey Portrait Lord Sharkey (LD)
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My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, I have given notice of my intention to oppose the Motion that Clause 136 stand part. This clause is yet another example of the Government’s abuse of delegated legislation and the avoidance of any meaningful parliamentary scrutiny. It is also a clear and obvious breach of an important constitutional convention.

Clause 136 amends the Healthcare (European Economic Area and Switzerland Arrangements) Act 2019, which started off life as the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, as we just heard. It would enable the Government to implement healthcare agreements with countries outside the European Economic Area and Switzerland. The exercise of the powers in this clause is through regulations subject only to the negative procedure. The department points to the 2019 Act as for seeking these powers, despite what we just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

During the passage of the then Bill in 2018-19, the Government justified or tried to justify taking the relevant powers as the need for speed and flexibility in the extraordinary circumstances of the EU withdrawal process. Parliament did not accept the provisions in the original Bill that the powers should be geographically and temporarily unlimited. After interventions by Parliament, the powers ended up being confined to the EEA and Switzerland and being sunsetted.

The department may be correct to state that the Secretary of State currently lacks the necessary powers to implement reciprocal healthcare agreements with countries outside the European Economic Area and Switzerland. However, this does not mean that there is currently no way to implement such agreements. They could and should be implemented by primary legislation. This would be in keeping with a long-standing constitutional convention that, outside the exceptional case of making provision for EU law, international legal agreements that make changes to UK law are given domestic force by an Act of Parliament. This ensures proper parliamentary scrutiny.

Our committees have pointed out breaches of this convention to the Government on several recent occasions. The last occasion was the proceedings of what was originally the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill, as I have just mentioned. Before that, the DPRRC commented on the breaches of this convention in the Professional Qualifications Bill in May 2021 and the Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill in March 2020. The Constitution Committee commented on the same Bill in its May 2020 report and concluded that:

“It is inappropriate for a whole category of international agreements to be made purely by delegated legislation.”


This is exactly what the Government are proposing in Clause 136.

The department does not address why such international healthcare agreements could not be implemented by primary legislation. We could try to remedy this abuse of delegated powers and breach of convention, as we did with the 2019 Act, by limiting their application and by sunsetting provisions. But, without a clearer understanding—or indeed any understanding—of exactly what agreements the department intends to use these powers for, it is not really possible to limit the power as we did then. The powers could also be sunsetted, as per that Act, but it is clear this would be inappropriate, given there is no longer a pressing time constraint on their use, unlike the then imminent departure from the EU. A better solution would be for the Government to abide by the constitutional convention and bring forward the appropriate primary legislation. That is the only way in which to enable any meaningful parliamentary scrutiny of these important reciprocal arrangements.

I look forward to the Minister’s explanation of why it is necessary to bypass Parliament and breach the constitutional convention in the manner proposed. I understand why it may be convenient, but cannot see why it is necessary or proper. We will certainly return to this issue as the Bill progresses.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
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My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for that completely comprehensive overview of the problem with this clause. I simply have some questions relating to it. We have devolved powers in the devolved nations of the United Kingdom and, to my understanding, this clause does not oblige the Government to have undertaken a comprehensive consultation with them before entering into such an agreement. It does not seem to require legislative competence before such legislation is proposed, and that legislation certainly would not come before this Parliament anyway.

22:15
This issue is referred to in new Section 2A(4)(b). I would like assurance that this is prospective, not just retrospective, so that if the powers of the devolved nations expand, that expansion of powers will be respected and things will not be agreed without consultation with them over new powers, as well as the current powers they have in the legislation that gave them devolved competencies. It may be that it would be helpful to the Committee for the Minister to give us a specific example of where such an agreement might be entered into, how consultation would occur, and what the processes would be for seeking legislative consent. I find this clause very worrying.
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. Several months ago, some of his staff came to talk to me about the international healthcare part of the Bill. I said pretty much what the House decided two and a half years ago, which the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, described. I said that we would be very sceptical of it, because we had to cut a Bill in half all those years ago to take out the international bit and leave in the European and Swiss bit because of the powers that it gave the then Secretary of State to make agreements with persons—without specifying who they might be. I remember it very clearly. So when I saw that the noble Lord had put down clause stand part, I regretted that I had not put my name to it at that time, because I realised that we would have to address this aspect of the legislation. I will not object at all to the two minor amendments, as I realise that they are simply drafting amendments, but unless we can resolve this in some way which deals with the powers, I fear that we will return to this on Report, and we will certainly support a move to remove this clause from the Bill.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and others for their comments and for their engagement with the Bill team on this issue. We currently have only limited healthcare agreements with countries outside Europe. They support people from the UK to access medically necessary healthcare but do not always provide comprehensive cover for those who need it. The powers included in this clause will enable the Government to implement comprehensive reciprocal healthcare agreements with countries around the world, not just with the EEA and Switzerland. This will allow the reimbursement of healthcare costs and the exchange of data to facilitate a reimbursement process. By implementing such agreements, we hope that we can better support people when they are abroad. We have listened to concerns previously expressed in the House, so the Bill will also remove Section 1 of the Healthcare (European Economic Area and Switzerland Arrangements) Act 2019, which provided a freestanding payment power and enabled the Secretary of State to make unilateral payments for healthcare in the EEA and Switzerland. This is no longer needed, following EU exit.

We are replacing this power with regulation-making powers which can provide for payments to be made in two circumstances: one, to implement healthcare agreements, and two, in countries where there is a healthcare agreement in place but the healthcare falls outside the scope of that agreement and the Secretary of State determines exceptional circumstances exist to justify payment. These are not the same powers that were originally drafted in the 2019 Bill. We have listened to Parliament and limited the scope of the powers to those necessary to deliver the policy intention. We have, for example, revoked the unilateral payment powers, which would enable the Secretary of State to make wide-ranging payments for healthcare outside healthcare agreements. The UK recently successfully concluded a trade and co-operation agreement with the EU, which includes comprehensive reciprocal arrangements. Therefore we see this as an appropriate time to tailor existing powers so they allow us best to support the healthcare needs of UK nationals across the world.

We hope that these legislative measures will allow us to strengthen existing agreements with non-EU countries or form other healthcare partnerships should we wish to in future. This includes looking to improve our healthcare co-operation with key international partners, the Crown dependencies and our overseas territories. We also want to offer more healthcare cover to UK residents travelling abroad for tourism or short-term business purposes, similar to the arrangements available to them when they visit EU countries.

I take this opportunity to confirm that there are no Henry VIII powers in this clause; they were removed during the passage of the Bill in 2019 and have not been put back. In response to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the Bill requires consultation with the devolved Administrations over the drafting of regulations made under the powers in this clause, and we are pleased that the devolved Administrations have all agreed to recommend that legislative consent is granted for these provisions.

In addition, the negotiation of international health agreements is reserved, and the devolved Administrations have a role to play in implementing those agreements. That is why we laid amendments in the House of Commons on Report of the Health and Care Bill. These amendments give the devolved Administrations power to make regulations in the areas of devolved competence within reciprocal healthcare.

As we are all too aware, healthcare co-operation between countries is a vital aspect of the global society we are a part of. Reciprocal healthcare provides safeguards and support for our most vulnerable as well as greater opportunities to travel, for work or leisure. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his suggestion that we have a meeting before Report for further conversation.

Amendment 232 agreed.
Clause 136, as amended, agreed.
Clauses 137 to 139 agreed.
Clause 140: Cap on care costs for charging purposes
Amendment 232A
Moved by
232A: Clause 140, page 116, line 41, leave out from beginning to end of line 9 on page 117 and insert—
“(a) in relation to eligible needs met by a local authority, to any amount the local authority charged the adult under section 14(1)(a) or 48(5) for meeting those needs;(b) in relation to eligible needs met by a person other than a local authority, to what the cost of meeting those eligible needs would have been to the local authority that was the responsible local authority when the needs were met.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment de-couples the costs that accrue towards the care cap from the costs specified in the budgets and simplifies the drafting for determining those costs that accrue.
Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 232A, 232B, and 234A to 234L in my name, made in relation to Clause 140. In the course of the detailed work on the operational guidance on charging reform in partnership with local authority representatives, it has become apparent that the existing legislative framework leads to unfair treatment of local authority-supported individuals in some areas and proffers incentives for self-funders in others. The intention of these amendments is to remove this. This applies even before this Bill, or whatever charging scheme we come up with, comes into effect.

Noble Lords may be aware that everyone who wants to meter towards a cap on personal care costs must have a needs assessment to ensure they have eligible needs. If there is a delay in the needs assessment through no fault of the person requiring care, they may wish or need to begin to pay for care before the local authority is able to intervene. At present, Clause 140 would enable self-funders to start metering from the point they request an independent personal budget, but the clause does not contain an equivalent provision for those whose needs are expected to be met by the local authority. These amendments will make the position the same for those whose needs are met by a local authority as for a self-funder, as well as clarifying that metering for those whose needs are being met by a local authority will be at the amount the local authority charges.

The amendments will also decouple how a local authority decides what meters towards a cap from the personal budget and independent personal budget. There are several practical benefits of this. Among the most important is ensuring that, having had an independent personal budget set by a local authority, nobody has a perverse incentive not to meet their needs. Without the amendments, somebody would meter the amount they are expected to spend set out in their independent personal budget even if they then purchased less care in order to save money.

The amendments also mean that any spending to meet agreed eligible care needs would meter towards a cap at the amount it would cost the local authority to meet those needs, where they are met by the local authority at the amount charged by it. This would happen even if it was omitted from the personal budget or independent personal budget for some reason.

Finally, there is an amendment to make a minor clarification of the circumstances in which an independent personal budget must be provided by a local authority and what the personal budget and independent personal budget must include.

I look forward to this debate and I am grateful to many noble Lords who, I am sure, wish to speak on this important matter.

Earl of Kinnoull Portrait The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Campbell of Surbiton, will be speaking remotely. I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to speak now.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the large swathe of government amendments, trying to provide small changes to clarify and to remove unintended consequences of the current system. I will speak to Amendments 235, 236A and to Clause 140 standing part of the Bill.

Amendment 235 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, is an attempt to replicate and update the Dilnot cap. It is certainly better than the current system, and I think that many noble Lords across all parties in this House have said that it is a shame that the new system does not emulate Dilnot better. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, reduces the rate at which those on low incomes lose benefits if they have assets above the means test threshold.

However, Clause 140 as a whole is a problem. It was added to the Bill later and was not considered by the Commons Bill Committee. Under Amendment 234, “persons entering the care system at or under the age of 40 will have their care costs capped at £0. This would apply to new applicants as well as existing care users who, while over the age of 40, have been accessing care and support since before the age of 40.” It is a huge form of injustice that we have an NHS that is free at the point of use and yet young people with learning disabilities and life-limiting health conditions are being charged for their essential care. One survey of respondents with disabilities in April last year found that 81% said that they had faced cuts in care packages or increased charges during the pandemic, with over half of them specifically reporting increased charges. The survey found that

“charges had forced people to stop care they needed or make difficult choices for financial reasons, with the results showing an increased reliance on family members and high levels of deteriorating mental health, including suicidal thoughts.”

The National Audit Office reported on local government finance in the pandemic and found that 41% of councils with social care responsibility said that they needed to make “substantial” service savings to balance their budgets, including by increasing charges and further use of their reserves.

Mencap’s response to the national insurance levy was that

“we can’t see how the proposed cap on care costs will benefit people with a learning disability … People who need care are missing out, others are having their support cut and some are being asked to pay towards their care which they simply can't afford.”

Further, BBC research has found:

“Some adults with learning disabilities are paying thousands of pounds extra a year, with six councils doubling the amount of money collected in charges. In half of 83 areas that responded to a BBC request, bills across all users have risen at least 10% over two years.”


One example is Saskia Granville, who was shocked when, earlier this year, her care charges increased more than 400%, from £92 to £515 a month. She has a learning disability and lives in supported accommodation in Worthing, west Sussex, but fears the charges will curtail her independence. Some 94% of people with learning disabilities are not in work so they just cannot find that extra cash.

I look forward to hearing from the Minister how on earth he thinks that the current system is either justifiable or equitable. While there may be change trying to sort out some of the minor anomalies, what remains is a system that is deeply unjust. I hope that the Minister is able to consider both Amendments 235 and 236A. I remain to be convinced by the arrangements that he has outlined and if brought back at Report, I am likely to support Clause 140 not standing part of the Bill.

22:30
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton Portrait Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendments 233, 234 and 235 in the names of my noble friends Lady Bull and Lady Greengross and the notice of intention to oppose Clause 140 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler.

The amendments propose less punitive charging regimes for social care users, and the notice to oppose reverses the regressive changes to the existing provisions. I support all of them to highlight on this occasion the unfairness of the Government’s charging formula on one particular group in society: working-age disabled adults.

Government amendments to the Care Act disproportionately affect working-age people, especially those with lifelong disabilities who draw on support for their day-to-day needs. It is no secret that I have long campaigned against such charges. Amendments 233 and 234 propose a zero charge on disabled people between the ages of 18 and 40, and Amendment 235 replicates the Dilnot proposals adjusted for inflation.

Care and support for those who depend on it is no less fundamental than healthcare is to survival. Without my care assistant to help me eat, drink, move and breathe, I would die, as I would if I did not receive medical care. Without access to support, I could not contribute to my community, and I could not work or enjoy life, but to live like my non-disabled peers, I would have had to pay for my care until I reached an £86,000 cap from the age of 18. In effect, it is a financial penalty on disability.

Before charging was introduced, working-age disabled service users could save for their first home, provide for a family, fund a university education and afford all the extra costs of disability such as housing adaptions or an accessible vehicle—to thrive as equal citizens. I was very lucky. I grew up during that time, which afforded me the opportunity to aspire to the same ideals as my non-disabled peers aged between 18 and 40.

Coming from very humble beginnings, I did not have a financial cushion, but I worked hard, saved like crazy and spent wisely—all the characteristics that this Government want their citizens to emulate. And look, the policy succeeded, due largely to a then no-charging policy. Here I am today, participating in vital scrutiny, equal among my “peers”. If I had been born 25 years later, it would have been a very different story.

In his foreword to the Government’s disability strategy, the Prime Minister says that it is the Government’s

“determination to level up the country so that whoever and wherever you are, the spark of your talent and potential can be connected with the kindling of opportunity”,

yet this Bill introduces a social care means test which drives disabled people into poverty and places a cap on aspiration.

Those with assets of less than £20,000 will continue to pay out of their income towards the cost of their social care. This includes pensions, means-tested benefits and extra-costs benefits such as personal independence payment, disability living allowance and attendance allowance. They are all regarded as income in the social care means test. Local authorities will undoubtedly raid these entitlements, intended to fund additional disability costs, to pay for social care. The charging reforms do nothing to address this injustice.

Consequently, those without means, unable to supplement their income through work or savings, will be forced to go without vital support. With the hike in energy bills next April, some will also go without fuel. Charging for care will prevent these young people getting on with life and building up a nest egg. Once their savings reach £20,000, they will be looted and their future security denied.

Take Sarah, aged 34. She has a learning disability and lives in supported housing with social care support for meals, budgeting and running a home. She gets housing benefit for her rent, but with no assets and being unable to work, Sarah is reliant on disability benefits for all other essentials such as food, fuel, council tax, social activities and clothes. She has been paying £81 a week towards her care package but last April the council told her that this would increase to £125. It will take Sarah 13 years to reach the cap, living on only £160 a week. If she were under 25, it would be even less—£141. Sarah will pay the same as someone with assets of £55,000. How on earth can this be described as fair? Sarah, and thousands of others like her, will not be living. They will be barely surviving.

In his Second Reading speech, the Minister said:

“The Government recognise that their amendment to the adult social care charging system was considered controversial. However, it is necessary, fair and responsible.”—[Official Report, 7/12/21; col. 1779.]


What is fair about holding down disabled people in poverty? What is responsible about limiting their ability to survive and prosper? Rather than liberating them, this charging policy will undermine their well-being and lock them in a state of avoidable and costly dependency.

I ask the Minister to work with disabled people’s organisations, myself and my colleagues before Report stage to find a fairer way to enable these service users to thrive, and to consider essential care and support services as a long-term investment rather than a drain on the Exchequer. I urge Members across the House to support these amendments and, in doing so, offer younger working-age adults with care and support needs equal life chances.

Baroness Bull Portrait Baroness Bull (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendments 233 and 234 are in my name and I am grateful for the support of my co-signatories and of Mencap and nine other working-age disabled adult charities, whose concerns these amendments reflect. Clause 140 would amend Section 15 of the Care Act 2014, which places a limit on the amount adults can be required to pay towards eligible costs over their lifetime. The Government intend to set that cap at £86,000, irrespective of age and income.

My amendments would “switch on” the section of the Care Act that allows different rates to be set for specific groups, and define one specific group as people between the age of 18 and 40 who are eligible to receive care and support. The effect would be to implement Dilnot’s recommendation that people entering the care system at or under age 40 have their care costs capped at zero. This would apply both to new applicants and to existing users who have accessed care and support since before the age of 40.

The Government have argued, and expert bodies have accepted, that no one will be worse off under their proposed charging reforms. But this does not make them fair and it does not make them just. They fail to recognise that people with mental, physical and learning disabilities will need additional care and support to participate equally in opportunities that many of us take for granted. They also fail to acknowledge that this inevitably leads to higher costs of living and leaves working-age disabled adults with little or no chance of accumulating assets or savings.

The Government’s impact assessment shows that savings and assets are particularly low among younger adults: 73% of 16 to 35-year-olds have made no plans to pay for social care, and ONS figures show that wealth for households where the head is 55 and over is 25 times higher than households aged between 16 and 24. But, of course, all these figures refer to the working-age population who are able to work and therefore earn, and employment rates among disabled people are shockingly low. Just 50% are in work, and this drops to 20% for those with a learning disability. This of course means many disabled people do not have access to regular earnings or career trajectories that deliver rising salaries. So, not surprisingly, disabled people have, on average, £108,000 less in assets than their peers without disabilities. According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, 38% of working-age disabled adults in the UK live in poverty.

On top of these limited opportunities to earn and save, most working-age care users have a long-term condition or disability that will require costly care and support long before they reach old age and, in many cases, from birth. Scope tells us that, on average, disabled people face £583 of extra cost for every month of their lives. And, of course, very few have the resources to self-fund their care. The vast majority are either below the lower capital limit or in the means-tested system. In this case, their care needs are assessed and those needs deemed eligible are part-funded by the local authority. Needs deemed ineligible are not funded, but they are still needs, and needs have to bet. Often, this is the kind of care that enables the interactions with the workplace and social and leisure opportunities that my noble friend Lady Campbell spoke about. As funding pressures on councils lead to further squeezing of eligibility criteria, as she described, more disabled people are having to fund more care from their own pockets.

But of course, as we heard when the Government introduced new amendments on Report in the other place, this contribution will not count towards the cap. Only the amount the individual contributes to the cost of their eligible care needs will count towards the cap—not the support they receive from local authorities and not the cost of ineligible needs, even though they are genuine needs and funded entirely from individuals’ own pockets. So the consequence of this controversial change is that those people least able to afford it will be spending a greater proportion of their assets and income on social care costs. Let us be clear: that income will come from benefits. The impact assessment says its calculations

“assume users do not make contributions to their care from their income and … all contributions are from user assets.”

But in the very next line, it admits:

“In reality, whilst income from employment is excluded from the means test, income from some benefits would be included.”


So disabled people not only face higher care and support costs but are less likely to be able to earn and therefore save—and they are experiencing parallel pressures on their benefits income from rising care contributions.

The Government’s analysis does not take this into account. These oversights in the analysis cast serious doubts on whether enough has been done to understand the specific needs of younger adults requiring care and how they differ from older people. No one would argue that older people do not deserve support, but it is hard not to conclude that the Government’s reforms are primarily concerned with people who develop care needs in later life, having built up assets and savings, at the expense of working-age adults with long-standing needs.

We have already heard the Minister this evening refer to the danger of unintended consequences. I urge him to consider the consequences of these reforms for those people who most need support and to consider my amendments as a fair and just way to protect them from catastrophically high costs they cannot afford for care they cannot afford to live without. “No one will be worse off” is not, I am sure, what this Government mean when they talk about levelling up. We can and should aim higher.

Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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I am standing here to speak in the place of my noble friend Lady Wheeler, because—as irony has it—she is a carer and has had to go home to care for her husband. I find that an irony. My noble friend wanted to speak at this point because we are very keen to make our points in the debate on clause stand part. First, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, who tabled Amendment 233, which leads the discussion on this highly controversial clause. She spoke with clarity and precision—and, of course, I thank her for her support of the other amendments.

22:45
This clause sets the care cap too high to benefit the majority of people who need to be protected. It abandons the key safeguarding Dilnot principle of enabling local authority care costs to count and to accrue towards the cap. It also abandons the consensus on implementing Dilnot that was so painstakingly and carefully worked through and agreed under the Care Act 2014, with cross-party consensus in both the Commons and the Lords.
On top of this, in the process of dismantling the Care Act provisions, the government amendments tabled in your Lordships’ House introduce a new set of even more complex technical charging rules for local authorities, which, to stand any chance of working it all out and administering and implementing the new arrangements, will have to develop costly new systems and accounting rules procedures, and employ more staff—IT specialists, accountants and auditors.
I thank the supporters of my amendment—the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Lansley—and, indeed, other noble Lords who kindly said they would have signed the amendment had it not already been full. I look forward to their contributions.
I am also grateful for the many expert briefings—in particular from the Alzheimer’s Society, Age UK, the MS Society and a group of 10 charities, including Mencap, that support working-age disabled adults and people with learning difficulties. Between them, these key stakeholder briefings spell out graphically, with full costings and actual person examples, the full impact of the Government’s care cap proposals on millions of people either receiving social care or in desperate need of it.
I am sure noble Lords will draw further on those examples today, as we have already heard in the contributions so far. Despite the pledge that nobody should have to sell their home, the fact is that someone with assets of £100,000 will lose almost everything, yet someone with assets worth £1 million will keep almost everything.
The deletion of Clause 140 is therefore vital, because it would enable the care cap provisions in the Care Act to remain in place, including ensuring that local authority costs count and accrue towards reaching the care cap. Labour strongly supported this negotiated package in 2014, and the costs involved, for implementation in 2016, in the full expectation that the Government would stick by it. Sadly, we know what subsequently happened with the staged annual postponements until final cancellation in 2019.
Labour’s support for the care cap has always been in the context of seeing it as part of a much wider social care reform that is needed to build long-term sustainability and growth, which the Government have yet to address. What the cap does not do, as summed up by Age UK, is improve access to care services by lowering the threshold or broadening the “eligible needs” definition. It does not increase the amount of care available. It does not provide increased funding to the system in terms of overall total expenditure. It does not improve care quality, develop the workforce or promote innovation, and it does not stabilise the care market by addressing the local authority funding problem
We know that what the Government are now proposing was discounted by the Dilnot commission as unfair, because it will result in people with low levels of wealth spending the largest proportion of their assets on care costs. That is clearly what the modelling shows, particularly in some of the most deprived areas across the country. The health think tank the King’s Fund has joined the call for the removal of Clause 140, labelling the £86,000 cap as “regressive” and running counter to the levelling-up ambition.
The cap level must be brought down and be set at a cost that achieves the fairness and equity that Dilnot was aiming for. Amendment 235, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, which would place the cap at the equivalent of the original Dilnot level by uprating its present value to £50,000, and which would be implemented under the current Care Act legislation, is a clear way forward to replace the Government’s Clause 140 proposals, and we strongly support it. I look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness in due course.
The Nuffield Trust supports this amendment and underlines that the simple removal of Clause 140 would create a more generous form of cap. In his Second Reading response speech, the Minister justified the £86,000 cap and the charging restrictions and said that
“nobody will be worse off in any circumstances than they are in the current system, and many people will be better off. The reforms mean that the Government will now support an extra 90,000 older care users at any given time.”—[Official Report, 7/12/21; col. 1888.]
But when we searched we found that the Build Back Better paper breaks this down as an additional 30,000 benefiting from the higher means test threshold and 60,000 from the cap, so could the Minister explain where this information is fully contained and analysed as it does not appear to be covered in the impact assessment or the related social care document? What are the overall estimates when the younger care population and people with learning difficulties are included?
The Age UK detailed case-by-case analysis of the impact on older people does not bear this out and the Alzheimer’s Society modelling shows that just 19% of people with dementia would reach the cap, and that is disproportionally detrimental to dementia sufferers in the north of England, the Midlands and some areas of London. With 900,000 people currently living with dementia in the UK especially likely to need social care rather than medical care, can the Minister tell the House what the Government’s estimate of the cap’s impact on dementia sufferers is and how this has been taken into account in the proposals before us today?
In summary, Clause 140 must be deleted so the Commons can think again about the proposals we have before us. What is presented in the clause is not a strategic plan needed for social care. It does not solve the existing funding crisis, which has been reinforced by social care playing second fiddle to the allocation of the health and social care levy and being virtually ignored in October’s spending review.
What we have instead is a last-minute, hastily drawn-up proposal, tacked on to a Bill that is mostly NHS-focused, forced through the Commons without notice—without a proper debate—and presenting us with a confusing mishmash of amendments on how councils must go about ensuring that the money they spend on social care packages does not get calculated in any assessment of need.
For these reasons, we wish to delete Clause 140. It should be replaced with the wording set out in Amendment 235 from the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. I also need to say to the Minister that we do not expect him to move the government amendments tonight because a much wider discussion is needed in your Lordships’ House. I thank noble Lords for allowing me to speak at this point in the debate.
Lord Lansley Portrait Lord Lansley (Con)
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My Lords, we have reached the point where my noble friend on the Front Bench—who is doing his job well—should look round for support on his own Benches. I fear all he has got is me.

I can see the point he was making about the desirability of these amendments. If Clause 140 were to be proceeded with, they are improvements on the structure of Clause 140, but they rather illustrate the point that Clause 140 itself was brought forward at a late stage and was not fully thought through. I might say to my noble friend that I am a little confused as to how he can be asserting that these amendments are the result of implementation of the existing system, demonstrating a problem when—as far as I can see—Amendments 232A, 232B, 234H, 234J and 234K all relate to parts of the Care Act 2014 that were never brought into force. So they cannot, in practice, have resulted from the implementation of what he describes as the existing system.

I wanted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, because what I have to say follows directly on from what she had to say. The noble Lords will recall that at Second Reading I made it clear that I thought it was best to take Clause 140 out—I still am of that opinion. If we were to proceed with Clause 140, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bull and Lady Campbell of Surbiton—the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, not having a chance yet to explain—have explained very well the two central points about young adults. One is that they will not have had an opportunity to accumulate assets in their lifetime. The Dilnot report itself said:

“Anyone developing an eligible need up to the age of 40 should also face a zero cap, as we do not think that people younger than 40 can, in general, realistically be expected to have planned for having a care and support need, nor will they have accumulated significant assets.”


Of course, the point that was made very well by the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell and Lady Bull, was that, even in so far as they have incomes derived from benefits, these may be taken into account in the means test, and so we would have a situation where, under the impact of Clause 140, they would have, potentially over many years, the erosion of whatever benefits are intended to be achieved for precisely that reason. So I very much support Amendments 233 and 234.

My point more generally is that when we get to Report I hope we will have a fuller Chamber and a fuller opportunity to explain why we should take out Clause 140. Of course, in part, in doing this—I see the noble Lord, Lord Warner, standing by ready to explain what the Dilnot commission, of which he was a member, said—I am in a sense defending the Dilnot report and its implementation. I asked Andrew Dilnot to undertake the review, and it reported to me.

I noted that, on Report in another place, Matt Hancock said:

“The reason that the Dilnot system, as previously proposed, was never put in place was that there was never a proposal to pay for it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/11/21; col. 111.]


I have to tell him that he was a Back-Bencher in 2010-11 and there was a proposal to pay for it. It was not a Dilnot commission proposal; it was my proposal, and it would have had significant benefit in that, because it would have removed the domiciliary care exemption on the means test, it would have rebalanced domiciliary care and residential care in the social care system. It would of course have meant that, very often, those who were benefiting from the cap and had significant housing assets would have contributed towards it.

I also proposed that the winter fuel allowance should not be made available in future to older people who were higher rate taxpayers. The net effect of these two measures was about £2 billion a year, which at the time would have been enough to pay for it. The Treasury, of course, said no, because 100,000 people a year would benefit from the cap, 200,000 people a year would have to pay into the system, and therefore it was not a good idea. Politically, the Treasury was completely wrong then, and probably it is completely wrong again in bringing forward the proposal encapsulated in Clause 140.

I will just elaborate and then I will stop. On Report in the other place, the right honourable Mel Stride said of what was then new Clause 49, now Clause 140:

“The first we heard of it was not in Committee”—


there were 12 sittings of that, until 2 November—“or in September”, when the tax measures were announced, “but on Wednesday evening”. This was Monday evening, and the first they had heard of it was the previous Wednesday evening when the amendment was tabled. So it was strictly last-minute but, even in the time available, a significant number of Members of the Conservative parliamentary party in the other place had their reservations. The clause was passed with a majority of just 26, with 19 Conservative Members of Parliament voting against it. Quite a number spoke, including Kevin Hollinrake, who said that

“there is no doubt that the way that the cap works means that it is less generous for those with more modest assets.”—[Official Report, Commons, 22/11/21; cols. 115-47.]

The objective—which, as I remember, was calculated on the back of the Dilnot report—should be that, broadly speaking, whatever your level of assets, there is a maximum level of loss of assets resulting from the implementation of the cap with a means test. If I remember correctly, it was about 45% loss of assets for those with the least assets; it would not exceed that. Of course, for people with lots of assets, the loss of their assets is significantly below that percentage. But now we have ended up with people with a large amount of assets having a potentially very low loss of assets and they are the principal gainers; people with very few assets, but some, may well lose them all. This cannot be right, and it cannot be fair. It is quite clear that Members of the other place, including a significant number of Conservatives, want to think about this again. When it comes to Report, if we take Clause 140 out, we will rightly give them the opportunity to do so.

23:00
Baroness Greengross Portrait Baroness Greengross (CB)
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My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 235 in my name, which seeks to implement the social care contribution cap recommended in the 2011 Dilnot report. He recommended that a cap be set at £35,000. Care cost inflation runs at 1.5% above the consumer price index, so to replicate the 2011 recommendation, adjusting for this cap would now be set at £50,000, and that is what this amendment seeks to achieve. The amendment would also adjust the cap with care cost inflation each year.

I first want to acknowledge that the Government’s proposed cap in this Bill of £86,000 is a significant improvement, as it introduces a cap and puts some limit on what people pay in care costs. There are some who still do not believe that there should be a cap and feel that this will just be a means of helping wealthy homeowners, but not all homeowners are automatically wealthy or sitting on some high-value property portfolio. For many people, as we know, their only real asset is a modest family home, which, in certain parts of the country, may have increased in value over time but even so not enough to make them wealthy.

There is an equity issue in that, if someone is diagnosed with cancer, the NHS will cover the full treatment cost, whereas if someone is diagnosed with dementia, they may require many years of care, which will cost families thousands of pounds as this is not covered. My Amendment 291, which will be debated in a later group, addresses the issue of dementia care plans and specifically talks about the different types of dementia and how each requires a different type of care and support. If someone is unlucky enough to be diagnosed with a certain type of vascular dementia, Lewy body dementia, or Parkinson’s-related dementia, these conditions often require many years of care—up to a decade or more in some cases.

I am not suggesting that there should be a different cap for people who have been diagnosed with long-lasting forms of dementia, but we must understand that people with these types of dementia will be the most impacted by this provision. The proposed cap of £50,000 in this amendment, the equivalent to that recommended in the Dilnot report nearly 11 years ago, is a much better one. According to the ONS, the average yearly earnings for people in the UK is £31,000. The cap of £50,000 is roughly just under two years’ average earnings, whereas £86,000 is nearly three years’ average earnings.

I anticipate that, when the Minister responds, the main objection to this amendment will be the cost to the Government, and I have no doubt that the Treasury will have concerns if the cap is lowered. In response to this, I refer the House to the debate in this Chamber on 16 September 2021 on the Intergenerational Fairness Forum report, Grasping the Nettle. As chair of the Intergenerational Fairness Forum, I introduced this debate, outlining that the report recommended that the Government introduce a social care levy at a rate of 1%, which could be raised to 2% for those aged 50 and over if there were a need for extra revenue. The levy would apply only to adults over the age of 40, placing the heaviest burden on those best placed to contribute to the cost of this bill. I mention the recommendation from this report to highlight that there are still other options to fund social care, and it would mean that the Government could lower the cap.

Some will feel that it is better at this time to focus on implementing the current cap and then, over time, press for a lower cap. Certainly, history shows that when other social security measures, such as the pension, were first introduced, they started at quite a small amount of money but then became more generous over time. I accept the logic of this, but still feel that the case must be made for a lower cap and that this should be considered and debated in Committee.

Lord Lipsey Portrait Lord Lipsey (Lab)
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My Lords, this is a rather strange grouping. In the earlier debates we were dancing at times on the heads of pins, and now we have the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, with her proposals for a lower cap, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bull—with whom I agree—largely exempting people of working age with a disability, and it is difficult to cover the whole field. However, I will attempt to give a small synopsis leading up to my own amendment, which is about the taper.

I first declare an interest as an unremunerated president of SOLLA, the Society of Later Life Advisers—the people who really know a lot about this stuff. I should also apologise for not having participated in the Second Reading debate but, like the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, I was in a crucial meeting of our House’s Communications Committee, which made doing so impossible.

On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays I am a strong supporter of the cap as recommended by Andrew Dilnot, for the obvious reason that it ends an unfairness to people who happen to live for a long time and therefore lose their assets. Unfortunately, in 54 minutes’ time I shall go back to the way I am on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, which is to be broadly opposed to a cap of the kind that has been proposed. That is for two reasons. First, all parties should take into account that it is wildly expensive—some £3 billion, which will rise as the number of old people rises. I would much rather that that money was spent on better care for those who need it than on paying for the rich. Do not be in any doubt: whatever gloss is put on it, half the people in care are paid for by the state now, so all the expenditure on the Dilnot cap will go on the other half. A lot of them are not rich people—some of them are quite modestly wealthy—but it is the richer half of the population that this cap supports. As a socialist, that is why I cannot go along with it—at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. It is not too long until next Sunday, when the good Lord will advise me on what final position to take.

Starting from that scepticism about the concept of a cap, I will say one thing about Dilnot’s proposals. Whatever you think, whether you are for it or against it, the case for the cap is much less strong than it was when Andrew Dilnot proposed it in his brilliant report, and for three reasons. First, no one now has to sell their house to pay for care. They did then but they do not now: they can borrow the money from the local authority and pay it back afterwards. Secondly, house prices have risen by 30%, so many people have more assets they could spend on their own care without leaving themselves with no assets to leave to their children. Thirdly—an important point which has been wholly missed so far in the debate—the private sector, belatedly but slowly, has started to get its act together about this. There are two relevant products: equity release, which enables somebody to get some money out of their house to pay for their care without selling the house, leaving plenty for the children; and, more importantly, annuities and deferred annuities, which are paid from the point of care in the case of an annuity, or after you have been in care for two years or so in the case of a deferred annuity. I was amazed to read through the impact assessment, which went through every possible argument on caps and alternatives to them, and not see a single reference to deferred annuities. They are part of a holistic solution.

I ask the Minister in all sincerity—I know he is very open to suggestions—that, before this Bill completes its passage and, preferably, before we have decided whether to leave Clause 140 as part of the Bill, we look at the role that the private sector can play in supplementing a cap, for example in allowing people to pay for better care for themselves, or indeed possibly replacing it with a less regressive way of paying for care. It should be looked at; it has been ignored since Dilnot, and the case that Dilnot then made against it is not quite the same today, so it really deserves to be looked at.

Finally, on my own amendment on the taper, I am very distribution-minded about this cap. What motivates me is that I hate taking scarce state money, which is needed to provide decent services for people who cannot provide decent services for themselves, and spending it on a subsidy for “Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells”. This seems wrong to me. I would love to see the welfare state expand. I am rather shocked to find a Conservative Government seeking to expand it in order to help the better-off at the cost of much more public spending. The better-off should be able to look after themselves.

If we are to have a cap, we should make it as good in terms of redistribution as we can, with less favouring of the rich than is the case with the present cap. That is why I brought in another thing that has not been mentioned in the debate: the taper. At the moment, the taper does not matter much; it applies in only a very narrow band of incomes. However, under this system, the taper will apply to assets of between £20,000 and £100,000. For every £250 you have in the bank, you lose £1 a week in benefits. That will hit the people who have between £20,000 and £100,000 in assets. They are not rich; they are the kind of people I want to help, but they are being struck by this taper.

Of course, addressing this will cost money, and I am reluctant about that. For every £50 you put on the £250 for the taper, it would be about £200 million a year; it is not nothing, but it is less than the £1 billion or so that would be lost if Clause 140 does not stand part of the Bill. If the Government want to show that they are interested in redistribution, as well as pleasing their richer supporters, I ask them to look at the taper as an alternative. I saw the vote in the Commons: Clause 140 is down the pan. It is not going to win. If he takes it back to the other place, he will be voted down, so it is not going to happen. Therefore, we all, particularly in your Lordships’ House, need to use our imagination to find alternatives to the proposal that the Government have put forward. That proposal will not pass this Parliament in its present form and in its entirety. Working with the Minister, we need to find a better proposal that meets the various considerations I have put forward and, in particular, uses the private sector and does not protect the assets of just the rich.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, a little belatedly, noble Lords might like to hear from one-third of the Dilnot Commission; I declare my interest as that third. I have to say that our ideas have been presented in a whole variety of ways over the last 10 years. This evening, they have been presented fairly accurately, which is refreshing.

23:15
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, that the private sector had its chances. It was conspicuous by its absence, particularly the insurance industry. We made these proposals because of the absence of many alternatives. Andrew Dilnot and I would never claim that this was a perfect solution that would satisfy everybody; it was a solution to do what the report said—Fairer Care Funding. The report never claimed that it would sort out all the problems of funding adult social care, although it did point out to the Government of the day—the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, may remember this—that adult social care was underfunded by about £1 billion. This was in the 2010-11 financial year. That gap has simply widened over the past decade, so that it is probably somewhere around six to eight times that £1 billion, judged on the eligibility criteria in 2010. So we never set out to do that.
What we did was to come up with a cap, which we said should be between £25,000 and £50,000. Our preferred figure was £35,000, which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, accurately reflected in her amendment. She has done everybody a service by giving a reasonable inflation figure in scaling up £35,000 to today’s prices. That has never been done. How the Government got to £86,000 is something of a mystery, but no doubt the Minister will clarify why there is this difference between the noble Baroness’s uprating of £35,000 and how the Government got to £86,000. It is certainly tempting sometimes, just to get a cap, to go with £86,000, but it is not what we actually said. When we wrote our report, we costed it. We pointed out that, if you went for a £50,000 cap, it would cost about £1.3 billion and, if you went for £35,000, it would add another £0.5 billion.
I am telling tales out of school slightly here. We consulted people such as the shadow Chancellor, who said that we would not frighten the horses if we came up with a solution that was south of £2 billion a year. That is what we did, and it has taken 10 years to get from where we were with this report to the coalition Government to be even having a discussion about implementing it, even though the framework was put in place in the 2014 Act. I confess to having been on the Select Committee that looked at that in draft. It was a rather good Act, which had the framework to implement the recommendations in this report.
You do not need all the—if I may say—stingy recommendations and amendments put forward by the Government. There is nothing wrong with the recommendation of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. We made this very clear in the report, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, said; if noble Lords want to look it up, and do not believe me or the noble Baroness, they should go to page 24 of Fairer Care Funding. That sets out what you would do with people who developed an eligible need up to the age of 40. It is worth saying something about why we justified that.
We do not think that people younger than 40 can, in general, realistically be expected to have planned for having a care and support need, nor will they have accumulated significant assets. People may still be paying off debts and have significant amounts to pay on their mortgage, and could have young families. We recognised those problems, and it is why we recommended a zero cap. There is not a lot of argument about that; it is a straightforward explanation of what the evidence said when we were drawing up this report. I support the non-governmental amendments, and think that the Minister should go back to his colleagues and start to think again.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
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My Lords, having attached my name to Amendment 233 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, and Amendment 235, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, I shall rise briefly. I am not quite sure why I did not attach my name to Amendment 234 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull. I certainly meant to, so I apologise for not doing so. I did that because I was approached to show broad cross-party support. Indeed, my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the same amendment definitely demonstrates that.

As someone concerned about poverty and inequality, I could not but do that. The noble Baronesses, Lady Bull and Lady Greengross, have set out the cases very clearly. I am not going to run through again the levels of poverty and inequality and the sheer struggle that so many people currently face and will face in future. As we have been around the houses for quite a long while on whether Clause 140 stand part, I shall just refer to one sentence in the Age UK report because it sums up where we are very clearly. It says:

“It is clear that these changes have the potential to save the Government hundreds of millions of pounds, but at the expense of those on low incomes, with modest assets and living in parts of the country where houses values are lower.”


It is the very opposite of levelling up.

However, in the context of this debate and particularly after the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, I want to set out an alternative vision—a vision that is much more radical than anything noble Lords have heard from anyone else tonight. It is the vision that was passed at the Green Party conference in October after a long and very hard-working campaign, particularly by our group of disabled members. It calls for free social care for all adults. Members of your Lordships’ House will have often heard me talking about a universal basic income, and I see the other side of that as universal basic services. I regard social care as a basic service. If you need help to eat, wash and lead a full life under your own control, that should be provided free at the point of need in the same way as the NHS is provided. This is a basic philosophical difference from others who have said that we need it all means-tested and that we need to be able to look at where a person is. I say that if someone needs this help it should be provided and then, whether or not people who have the means to contribute to that, whether they have been unfortunate enough to suffer a disability or a limiting illness, they should all be in that position.

I am aware of the time, so I will make just one final point on postcode lotteries. We often express a great deal of concern about postcode lotteries, but there is another lottery that occurs to people in this situation. Some people who suffer very serious disabilities or very serious illnesses that affect their living conditions are able, through the courts, to receive payments. Perhaps their parents are able to show that they suffered some disability at birth as a result of inadequate care, and they receive a very large payment that is set at a level to provide them with a decent level of care for life. Perhaps they are a young adult who is knocked off their bicycle and it is possible to hold a driver responsible. They get a very large court payout absolutely rightly. I am not challenging that under the current system at all, but they get that payment. Someone with exactly the same condition who cannot go to court and the people caring for them, their parents or relatives, have to struggle and fight at every level and at every moment to get the care that they need. That is just not right.

Lord Davies of Brixton Portrait Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
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My Lords, I just want to contribute to this debate. I fully support the remarks of my noble friend Lady Thornton. I was particularly struck by her dissection of this Government’s totally preposterous claim to have a plan for social care. They do not have a plan. All they have is a regressive tax and a broken promise.

I am tempted by the remarks of my noble friend Lord Lipsey to enter into a broader debate on these issues. Clearly, this issue is not going to go away. This is not the end and the issues that were raised will come back again and again until we move towards something fairer and more comprehensive. I cannot resist saying that I am unconvinced that deferred annuities will have any part in any sort of mass market provision of care. As a product, they are fatally flawed, in my view.

My noble friend’s remarks also made me think of the extent to which this debate is taking place while ignoring the key factor in these issues, which is housing or, rather, property management. That is really what we are talking about, but we do not mention it in the context of these debates, which is unfortunate. I am glad my noble friend raised these issues. However, I think the substantive point this evening is the imperative of sending this clause back to the Commons where they can reassess it with greater time than they were allowed initially.

Finally, I just want to highlight the revealing and outrageous statement by the Minister in the Commons, Mr Argar. He said the Government

“have always intended for the cap to apply to what people personally contribute, rather than on the combination of their personal contribution and that of the state.”—[Official Report, Commons, 22/11/21; col. 110.]

I do not believe that means-tested benefits are any more money being given by the state than my pension that I get from the national insurance scheme. It is outrageous to cast people as, in a sense, recipients of charity. It is their rights as citizens to have this money, and it is their money; it is not the state’s money. It reveals the Poor Law mindset of this Government.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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My Lords, I understand the concerns about the lack of debate in the other place on this issue. The Government are putting in place a package of reforms to be implemented in 2023. The introduction of the £86,000 cap on costs is part of a package through which we hope that no one will lose out when compared to the current system. I will get the source that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked me for. I think that is a reasonable question.

The Government believe that having the cap in place allows people to balance their personal responsibility of planning for later years and puts in place a system where we hope that no one faces unpredictable care costs. Without Clause 140, two people with the same level of wealth, contributing the same amount towards the cost of their care, could reach the cap at very different times, driven not by how much they are spending on their care but how much the local authority is. We wanted to address that perceived unfairness.

Instead, the Government made the decision to offer the same cap for everyone. However, the cost for people with more modest means will be reduced in two important ways: first, through means-tested support, including for those living in their home. This kicks in as soon as someone’s assets fall below £100,000, potentially right from the start of their care journey. We chose to offer the same threshold for means-tested support, no matter where somebody draws on care, because we want to support and encourage people to be able to stay in their own homes whenever they can. That was an ambition set out in our White Paper, People at the Heart of Care.

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Secondly, lower daily living costs will ensure that, having reached the cap, more people will be able to afford daily living costs from their income, protecting their assets, which is a key objective of the cap. Clause 140 as amended would make sure that no person was worse off through our reforms, but I understand the concerns from noble Lords across the Committee who say that that is not enough. The amendments would allow those care costs incurred by an individual to meter towards the cap. The person would then be able to meter at the rate that the local authority would have paid to meet those needs.
We hope that these changes will provide parity and fairness between self-funders and those funded by local authorities when there is a delay in carrying out a needs assessment. Decoupling how a local authority decides what meters towards the cap from the personal budget and independent personal budgets will simplify processes. This, we hope, would provide more autonomy and personalisation to the care user, rather than being a record of how much a person’s care costs.
We believe that these amendments are necessary to ensure parity between self-funders and people supported by a local authority to pay for their care, as well as to ensure that all amounts which ought to meter towards the cap will do so. However, given our discussions with the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, earlier today and given the views expressed by noble Lords, in the spirit of what I hope will be ongoing constructive discussions, I will not press these amendments at this stage and bring the matter back on Report.
I shall briefly touch on some of the other amendments. Amendments 233 and 234 work in conjunction to require the Secretary of State to specify in regulations that people entering care under 40 will not face personal care costs in their lifetime. There have been previous iterations of the policy, including different caps for different ages, but we did not feature them because they were considered unfair. For example, someone entering care the day before their 40th birthday would benefit from a personal care cost cap of zero and free personal care for their lifetime, but a person entering care after their 40th birthday would not benefit from the same free personal care by a two-day margin. We considered that a cliff edge of that magnitude would be unfair. I have also heard—
Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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The proposition in relation to the age of 40 was in the report; it has been around for 10 years. It is a bit late in the day to be coming forward with the suggestion that it was an inadequate proposition from the Dilnot commission. Ten years is a long time to discover truth.

Lord Kamall Portrait Lord Kamall (Con)
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Perhaps I may move on to Amendment 235, on setting the cap based on the recommendations of the Commission on Funding of Care and Support and moving the implementation date by a year. For local authorities to make a change of this magnitude this year is undeliverable. They have told us that the original plan to implement for October 2023 is already an ambitious target.

Setting the level of the cap has been a fine balance. The Government have had to consider the longer-term cost of reform and what proportion of the future levy revenues to earmark for this purpose and other purposes. Retrospectively to impose a cap on care costs for everyone in the care system and to include their care costs during their lifetimes in the cap calculation is unfeasible.

I would like to have some further conversations with the noble Lord on Amendment 236A, if that is possible. I thank him for some of his suggestions to date. There is a real debate about how feasible a private solution is. I remember in an earlier debate the noble Lord rightly chastising me and saying that it was rather embarrassing for a Labour Peer to propose to a Conservative Peer a private sector solution. That hurt—but I completely understand. If it is possible, I personally would have been open to it, but the Government maintain that it is not feasible. We will probably need some more discussions.

This clause clearly needs a lot more discussion between now and Report. I could go into more arguments but, given that there was a lack of debate in the other place, I think that it needs more debate and more consideration overall. I am very happy to have more round tables with the Bill team, the charging team and noble Lords to explain the case, and for noble Lords to decide whether it is an acceptable case or still to disagree with it. With that in mind, I hope that noble Lords feel sufficiently reassured not to press their amendments at this stage and to allow the clause to stand part of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 232A withdrawn.
Amendments 232B to 234L not moved.
Clause 140 agreed.
Amendment 235 not moved.
Amendment 236
Moved by
236: After Clause 140, insert the following new Clause—
“Registration of tertiary prevention activities in respect of provision of social care
In section 9 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008, in subsection (3) at the end insert “or any form of reablement and rehabilitation provided under section 2 of the Care Act 2014 to reduce the need for care and support”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would bring reablement and rehabilitation provided under Section 2 of the Care Act 2014 to reduce the need for care and support into the purview of the Care Quality Commission.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
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My Lords, this group of amendments is concerned with rehabilitation services. Very briefly, because the hour is very late, I will set out why it matters so much.

People in hospital, as the Minister said previously, lose muscle mass at an alarming rate when they are confined to bed. They risk thrombosis, lose their ability to balance, their confidence and their social contacts, and can become lonelier, isolated from friends and family, and depressed as they see themselves able to do less and less. They then become terrified of going home and often feel quite dumped when they get home because there is a sudden cliff edge from being supported in an environment to feeling like there is no one there. That same cliff edge also happens for patients when they leave intensive care units and go from the very intensive care down to a general ward—so we have huge steps in our system at the moment.

Assessment in hospital, as has often happened, does not often make any sense, because people know their own home. So assessing whether someone can make a cup of tea in a hospital kitchen may bear no relationship at all to their own kettle, their own kitchen, the floor, where they keep things, and so on. They need to be in their own home to be assessed. In their own home, there are often trip hazards, if they are not detected, and if people are not supported to navigate around their own home and furniture, they will have a fall and end up back in hospital very quickly. They need seven-day support at home, because they need to have people whom they can contact.

The problem is that, at the moment, recovery and maintenance of personal independence, although central to the Government’s long-term ambition for social care services, just do not seem to be integrated. In the document, People at the Heart of Care, there is a reference on 68 occasions to the importance of the role of adult care services in maintaining independence for people at home in the community, but there is no mention of local authority rehabilitation services at all.

Rehabilitation services in the community are not subject to regular monitoring and inspection. There are no consequences for poor or absent provision beyond individual complaints, which is why this amendment proposes that they should be brought into the purview of the Care Quality Commission. In the other place, the Minister Edward Argar stated his belief that services were already covered by the existing legislation. But that is not the everyday experience in operation. For example, if we look at vision rehabilitation services, in an audit undertaken by the RNIB, half of the lead counsellors for rehabilitation had no idea that vision rehabilitation was in their remit.

I shall move on rapidly to Amendment 241, because these amendments are all linked. I should have said at the outset that these have been proposed and supported also by the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy, of which I am president. In this amendment, in large part, professions involved in local authority rehabilitation are regulated bodies with recognition in health, such as OTs, physios and speech and language therapists. But there are other people in local authorities involved in providing rehabilitation who are currently completely unregulated and unregistered, so the Rehabilitation Workers Professional Network is currently seeking registration with the Professional Standards Authority in order to take this group of staff on to a list of statutorily regulated social care staff.

Amendment 306, also in this group, would bring local authority reablement and rehabilitation activities, defined by care and support statutory guidance as tertiary prevention, into regulation and enable the Secretary of State to require information on how the service is operated. Anecdotally, there is wide, unwarranted variation in both the quality and breadth of service offered across England. There is no centralised reporting of performance. Bringing these services explicitly into regulation would enable NICE to develop guidelines and quality statements that could be used to inform the quality of provision of services, which, as I have already said, could then be properly inspected. We might then get nearer to having a level playing field.

I also have my name to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, which is about hospital accommodation, and I will speak to it briefly. At the moment, we have a severe shortage of beds. We know that patients come out of ICU to general wards, and there are patients who cannot then be discharged to home. Often, they are in that twilight where they are really not well enough to go home. They need more rehabilitation, they need more support, but the hospital is deeming them fit to discharge because of the incoming pressure on their beds.

If we had some more step-down beds, we could provide care in much more imaginative ways, such as happens in some parts of Europe, where, for example, family members are expected to come in and help with some of the basic care—feeding, personal hygiene and so on—of their own relative, as they all get used to rehabilitating together, so that that person can go home with that family member understanding how to care for them and what to do, and therefore being able to support them better in the community and pick up early warning signs.

We need to learn from the military rehabilitation units and the new NHS national rehabilitation centre that is being built near Loughborough, because there is evidence that if you can move people through the system more appropriately and get them back home, they recover better and quicker and do not risk that deterioration I referred to at the beginning. A community rehabilitation plan would improve co-ordination, integration of rehabilitation units and community rehabilitation. I beg to move.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD)
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My Lords, numerous reports from Select Committees of your Lordships’ House have recommended that the NHS and care system do things differently in order to use resources efficiently while providing better care and independence for patients. It is well known that most of us cost the NHS more as we get older, particularly if we have multiple morbidities. This is why the Government launched the Ageing Society Grand Challenge—to achieve five additional years of healthy life by 2035. So your Lordships’ Science and Technology Committee looked into this and published a report on 15 January last year. Sadly, we had to conclude that the Government are not on track to achieve this.

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Amendments 236, 241 and 306, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, are relevant to this issue. They would require regulation for workers working in rehabilitation and reablement. The Science and Technology Committee looked into resources to enable older people to live safely and independently in their own homes, and this would apply to younger people coming out of hospital after a long period. We recommended that the Government make
“targeted and strategic investments in research for the design, evaluation and uptake of data-driven services, assistive robot technologies and AI for older people in order to develop national expertise and critical mass in this important area.”
We also recommended that internet access should be available in all homes and that older people be provided with digital skills, all with the objective of allowing more people with frailties and disabilities to live at home and not take up beds in acute hospitals or care homes.
Part of the training for the tertiary prevention activities mentioned in the noble Baroness’s amendments should include the ability to assess which of these technologies are appropriate for the reablement of each patient and the skills to help them learn to use them. Such technologies, correctly diagnosed and provided, could do a lot to reduce the pressure on residential social care and support. These tertiary prevention and rehabilitation activities are vital for levelling up health disparities, which means that the staff who deliver them are vital too, and that is why I support the noble Baroness’s amendments.
Baroness Greengross Portrait Baroness Greengross (CB)
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My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 289, which would ensure that every hospital has sufficient accommodation to allow a bed for any patient who is rehabilitating and who no longer needs to be in hospital, but who cannot be discharged to their own home. Further, this amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that hospitals use any spare land owned by the NHS to build this accommodation.

For many years I have been an advocate for this type of accommodation. The NHS has struggled for a long time with a lack of available hospital beds, a situation made worse by the coronavirus pandemic. Having rehabilitation accommodation for people who need to be near a hospital in case they need to see a doctor, but who do not need the full services of an NHS hospital bed, which is considerably more expensive, would be of considerable benefit. In Scandinavia, patient accommodation of this nature has been part of the state health system since the late 1980s. Having patients stay in these facilities, which are designed to cater for people needing medical care, has delivered considerable savings to the public health system.

The cost of someone staying in one of these hotel rooms is less than a third of the cost of someone staying in a hospital bed. This is a great example of how the private sector, working in conjunction with the state, can enhance efficiency and deliver better public health outcomes. Over the last couple of years I have had the privilege of working with chartered architect Jimmy Kim, who has identified various opportunities throughout England to use NHS-owned land or vacant buildings for this sort of development. These sites could be given to the private sector to develop into non-clinical units, with a guarantee of a utilisation contract from the Government. At present, NHS trusts are spending money putting up patients in hotels, with rooms costing as much as £275 per night. One hospital has spent over £1 million on hotel rooms in the last three years. From a cost perspective, it would be better for the NHS to provide this accommodation in symbiosis with the private sector, rather than paying hundreds of pounds a night for hotel rooms or having patients stay longer in hospital beds which are not designed for the context of health rehabilitation.

We need to bear in mind the widening context of what a patient is in today’s society, which is one with dementia, adult-disabled, mental health issues and, progressively, those for whom the social services have yet to find suitable accommodation.

The need to reform both health and care is long overdue. The pressure to invest more in social care has been building up over many years, and Governments have been slow to respond. But part of this must also be looking at prevention and helping people to remain independent, which we can do through supporting rehabilitating patients and helping people to remain independent. We also know that pressure on our hospital system means that many people wait far too long to get treatments, while others stay too long due to there not being suitable accommodation when they are discharged. In too many cases, people end up in hospital for too long or in the social care system where, instead, the step-down accommodation that I am proposing in my amendment would be the most suitable option.

I would love to discuss this further with the Government as I believe that the concept has real merit, as it would reduce NHS costs and improve patient outcomes. My amendment would help the NHS save money and result in better outcomes for patients. I know that one such experiment is being developed now in London; I am really delighted to know about that and I think many patients will be too.

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Portrait Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
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My Lords, delayed transfers in care is an ongoing challenge for health and social care services, made worse with the pandemic. We need to remember that hospitals are for assessment and treatment. As other noble Lords have already said, extensive stay in hospital is not good for your health.

In February 2020, there were over 155,000 delay days in hospital, costing a significant amount of money. A majority of the delays—21%—were caused by delays in packages of care in patients’ own homes, while 18% were due to delays in receiving further non-acute NHS care. With over half a million emergency admissions in the same month, intervention is urgently needed to reduce systematic pressures and maintain safe and timely discharge.

I therefore particularly support Amendment 289 to optimise existing space and develop new accommodation for hospital patients who no longer require acute treatment. There are a range of options, including community hospitals, NHS nursing homes, contracts with not-for-profit social enterprises and, as my noble friend Lady Greengross has said, independent sector companies.

However, these issues are not new. I have in my hands a paper by Sir Cyril Chantler for the King’s Fund, The Potential of Community Hospitals to Change the Delivery of Health Care. The salutary point about this excellent paper is that it was written in 2001.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
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My Lords, I rise very briefly, since I attached my name to Amendment 289, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. She set out the reason for the need for this service, but I just want to say explicitly—particularly given the next group of amendments—that I do not believe that independent providers, for-profit providers at least, would be the way of doing this, given the many problems that we have seen in social care, which are highlighted in the next group.

We still have, in some places at least, community hospitals and facilities in communities. These are things that ideally would be developed by the community for the community, being run for public good not private profit.

Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)
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My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 289 in the names of my noble friends Lady Greengross, Lady Watkins, Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

Reading the words of the amendment reminded me of the speech that my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton gave in your Lordships’ Chamber on 29 November 2012—col. 274 in Hansard. She talked movingly about a young man, a wheelchair user who had to remain in hospital four months longer than he should have because of a lack of accessible accommodation —a travesty. One can only imagine the impact on the mental health and well-being of someone in this situation. Sadly, many more now know what this feels like.

Although the situation we are in now is somewhat different, I hope that the Minister will be able to give due consideration to the needs of disabled people, in relation to accessibility—for example, regarding toilets, showers, and specialist equipment—but also to the support networks that disabled people may require, while ensuring that appropriate and knowledgeable people are able to support their rehab. This is vital so that many disabled people are not marooned.

While I have been in your Lordships’ Chamber tonight, I have been sent some data on the work carried out by Dr Elizabeth Williamson about the mortality rates of those on the learning disability register over the last 18 months; these rates are, quite frankly, shocking. I need some time to go through the data in detail and digest it. I will write to the Minister to explore this further but, at a quick glance, the data gives me cause for significant concern and means that careful implementation of the amendments in this group will be very important to protect and support disabled people.

Going back to the amendment, a disabled person’s ability to return home may or may not be more complicated than for a non-disabled person during this time but a longer stay than necessary could have a significant impact on someone’s mental health and well-being, especially if not properly supported, and could even hamper their long-term physical recovery, which, in turn, would put more pressure on the NHS.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner (CB)
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My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 289. It is worth remembering that the NHS used to have convalescent beds—I went to one as a boy, recovering from peritonitis. These have disappeared over time. When in the 1980s and 1990s nursing homes were set up in increasing numbers across this country, we found that they ended up on the means-tested side of the boundary between health and adult social care. In a way, the NHS lost out because these resources were on another side of the boundary, which was defended with jesuitical force to make sure that people did not drift into the NHS who might get care that was not means tested but free. We have ended up shooting ourselves quite badly in the foot by allowing these services to drift out of the NHS and into the adult social care system.

Shortly after the 2010 election, I facilitated a proposal from a few large nursing home groups to take recovering patients from hospital to free up acute hospital beds. This was rejected by the Treasury which thought it would lead to large numbers of people who were being means-tested getting free NHS care. In fact, they were two separate groups and the NHS was punishing itself by keeping people in beds in the NHS at high cost. We know that about 25% of the people who are in acute hospital beds should not be there—they need not be there clinically—but they are holding on to those beds because there is nowhere else for them to go within the NHS system. We have ended up unnecessarily blocking beds and spending a lot more money because we cannot put in place a service that the NHS badly needs. I suggest to the Minister that we revisit this issue in the interests of the NHS and its patients.

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
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My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the debate this evening and for the amendments put forward, which have focused on what I would call a complete continuum of care and support where people need it most; my thanks also to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for leading the debate. What we hear tonight is the need to drive up standards and availability in what can be accessed for reablement and rehabilitation.

As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, reminds me, I fear that, over time, we have perhaps lost a broader range of provision, and the word “convalescence” has somewhat left our vocabulary. The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, to ensure that accommodation is available to people who are in rehabilitation—people who no longer need to be in a hospital ward but cannot return to their own home—is creative and practical. I hope that the Minister will look at exploring that idea.

On this group of amendments we are talking about supporting patients in leaving hospital and finally returning to the place where they should be—home—safely and in a timely manner, and about keeping hospital beds free for those who need them most. This should be done by providing the right kind of care when people actually need it. We all know that delayed discharges make things worse for people. There is functional decline, such as muscle deterioration, in those who are older or who have dementia. There is additional expense for the NHS as people occupy beds when they do not have a clinical need to do so. Also, people will need more complex, or higher levels of, care on discharge, due to the loss of function that I mentioned earlier.
Individuals recover best in an environment suited to them. That may be at home; it may be in specific accommodation; it may be in other circumstances. What is most important is that people are considered as individuals and assessed at the right time and provided for, so that they can go on to live healthier and more independent lives for longer.
The noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, said that most delays were due to a failure to arrange the right package of care. Indeed, that is so. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, emphasised the need to ensure that provision is tailored to the needs of the individual. This is particularly important as we move into the post-pandemic time and find that one in 10 Covid patients will live with long-term symptoms.
In conclusion, I support not just the spirit and ambition of this group of amendments, but the suggestions in them. I hope that the Minister will take them on board.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen Portrait Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
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I thank noble Lords for explaining these amendments. On Amendments 236 and 306, it is right that social care services be appropriately and effectively regulated, and this includes rehabilitation and reablement. However, I do not believe these amendments are necessary to achieve that outcome.

The definition of “social care” in the existing Section 9 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 is already sufficiently broad to cover reablement and rehabilitation services provided under Section 2 of the Care Act 2014. Most rehabilitation and reablement services are already within the scope of the CQC’s regulated activities, so most of those services are CQC registered.

It follows that these services are also in scope of the provision in Clause 85 that enables the Secretary of State to require information from CQC-registered providers of adult social care services. If there are concerns about the scope of CQC regulatory activities in relation to these particular services, I would encourage the noble Baroness to write to my noble friend the Minister, so that it can be ascertained whether changes to secondary legislation are needed.

On Amendment 241, the scope of Section 60 currently covers healthcare professionals across the UK, and social care workers in England only. Social care is a devolved matter and falls within the competence of the devolved legislatures for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Section 60 defines

“social care workers in England”

through a list of descriptions. Staff who work to provide reablement and rehabilitation services in the course of care work are covered by the existing descriptors and could therefore be brought into regulation through secondary legislation. In addition to those carrying out this role in the social care field, there are also a number of healthcare professionals who provide reablement and rehabilitation services, such as occupational therapists and physiotherapists, who also fall within the scope of section 60.

Finally, turning to Amendment 289, the Government recognise that rehabilitation is a critical element of the health and care system, supporting patients with a wide range of conditions. A number of initiatives are already under way to support future discharge routes in a way that is sustainable and cost-effective and that provides choice for patients to return to their community. These will be pursued locally by the NHS in ways that best fit their local clinical requirements.

I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who asked why NICE could not give guidance. NICE has already given guidance on rehabilitation after critical illness in adults. It was published in 2009 and reviewed in 2018.

NHS England and NHS Improvement lead a programme to identify optimum bed-to-home models of care for rehabilitation services, supporting discharge to assess policy implementation. The programme will estimate the right capacity for out-of-hospital rehabilitation care, supporting systems through a range of guidance, frameworks and tools. Furthermore, we have already asked NHS organisations to review their estate and identify opportunities to utilise or dispose of surplus assets to ensure that the estate remains efficient and cost-effective.

The NHS also, for transparency, publishes quarterly statistics on surplus land. Integrated care boards will be able to develop estate strategies which identify the efficient use of the estate. As part of that, these plans will be able to identify a number of NHS priorities that could be delivered through the use of surplus land. It should be for local organisations, not the Secretary of State, to decide how to utilise surplus land to meet the needs of their local populations, and therefore we do not think this amendment takes the correct approach in this regard.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate and hope that I have given them enough assurance at this late hour to allow them not to press their amendments.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
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I am most grateful to the Minister for that response and I am particularly grateful to all those who contributed to this debate at this late hour. The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, had it completely right when she said that this was about a continuum of care. The problem is that, if people do not get timely care at the outset and on the way through their journey, things just accumulate.

I certainly will go back and look at the NICE guidance; I had understood that it did not go far enough or cover things effectively, but I am most grateful to the Minister for drawing my attention to that. Certainly we should be looking at how the regulation of those involved in rehabilitation in the community can be extended. Of course, the advantage of regulation is that you also have a lever for training and education, to address the very specific needs of different groups. My noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson spoke of the disabled group, which includes those with physical disabilities, learning difficulties and different areas of handicap. They need to be looked after by people who have been trained and who understand what their specific needs are. That cannot be just a generic service.

I am also glad to hear that there will be the ability to look at the beds and the estate overall and that people are beginning to think about that again. With all those assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 236 withdrawn.
Amendments 236A and 236B not moved.
House resumed.
House adjourned at 12.10 am.